Week Ending August 16, 1997
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 12:48:30 +1000
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From: Happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Champions Genre Selection
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At 11:55 AM 8/9/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>> yes- because the GM isn't letting him find their OWN FUN- this is the
>>> possible scenario:
>
>This whole thread is getting ridiculous. By the standards being held for
>"genre restrictiveness" the rules themselves limit a player..."What do you
>mean a beginning character only gets 250 points, I want 2000!" When
>playing
>ANY game there have to be mutually decided upon limits as to what is and
>is
>not allowable.
oh, rubbish! this is the most open-ended rules intensive game ever-
i have already said SEVERAL times that certain conventions are valid-
such as the "no ninja's" rules suggested, what you are doing is arguing
against a point i'm not making- and moron can see that games have limits-
why don't the pc's just beat up the gm, and threaten them with torture if they
don't do as they say? anyone can postulate ludicrious extreme examples. . ...
>If 4 people, including the GM, are involved and 3 say "we
>want a relatively realistic, even heavily realistic, feudal Japan
>campaign"
was it just?
>then the players ALL have an obligation to work within that framework.
no, they don't- the 4th player should leave the game, or the other
3 should realise that, for instance, if it's the only game going (which hapens a
lot around here) they have an obligation to include the other player-
and if the other player is not fittting in, it is not his fault-
The fact is the genre should fit the tastes of ALL the player, not
the other way around.
>Retiring to a monastery and becoming "mystically inclined" is not an
>option, it's not "heavily realistic". Leading a successful revolt, in
>that
>timeframe, is not "heavily realistic", although an unsuccessful one could
>be interesting. If the player has a problem with the defined genre, or
>the "how thing work" rules, they have three completely valid options.
>
this is stupid- now you know what's 'realistic'? this is my point-
you have defined certain things as 'realistic' (I.E. genre convention)
and hence they are unbreachable- though in actuality, all they are is
the gm's own bias's and steriotypes- this is exactly the type
of "false convention" i'm talking about.
>1) Try to convince the others to modify the framework or have a
>"secondary"
> campaign more in line with what he wants. This usually isn't as
> difficult as it might seem, at least in my experience.
no, it's impossible- you already said the others liked the setting. . .
>2) Start his own campaign. Many GMs I've played with got started GMing
>for
> this very reason. Several groups I've played with have multiple GMs
>who
> rotate though so everyone gets the opportunity to see the kind of
>campaign
> they want.
i very mucgh doubt the gm in question would have let that particular pc
anywhere near 'his' campaign.
>3) Just don't play with those people. If their ideas and your's are
> diametrically opposed, nobody's having fun anyway.
>
this isn't much of an option, relaay, is it?
it's like suggesting suicide to avoid a prison term. .
>But it is the GMs job to cater to the majority, not to lay awake
>sleepless
>at night to try to keep uncooperative people happy when they are
>obviously
>trying to hinder the enjoyment of everyone else.
>
the majority? so let me get this straight, if the group is in majority vote,
the others can get bent? i don't think so! I'm not talking about
"sleepless nights", and once again, i'm speaking GENERALLY,
all i would suggest is that much conflict of this sort can be traced back to GM
arrogance and lack of imagination.
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 12:57:53 +1000
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From: Happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: 4 color principles
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At 12:36 PM 8/9/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>yes, but in the '4 color genre' discussion, you point about patents, ect
>>looses out- this sub-strand seemed to be invalidating another potential
>>convention, suggestions it was unrealistic to do X (act heroic ect),
>>was BASED on the assumption of real world concepts which are actually
>>genre conventions- ie how crime goes on in a super-setting, you
>>failed to realise that it WOULDN"T do so in the potential "real world",
>>and hence it would be an *immense* aid to a city- hence it wouldn't
>>be a waste of his powers at all, ect al. . blah, blah. . .
>
>Many people on the list have stated that if superheroes showed up in the real
>world crime would come to a dead stop. This is, IMHO, a feel good fantasy
>which does not consider the nature of crime in the real world.
>Crime is a complex web of sociological phenomena that in the real world (and
>in comics as well though it is rarely explicitly stated there) that defies
>simplistic solutions. If we were to eliminate the entirety of our court and
>and prison system and simply have police who sole purpose was to kill
>suspects of crime we would increase the fear level of every citizen but we
>still would not eliminate crime.
i agree completly. nonetheless, it would be an immense help- my point was
purely functional- i.e. x leads to y, that guy didn't take into account
convention z as a possibility, ect. .
>Violent street crime usually represents one of three things, personal
>desperation in which the armed robber/mugger type achieves subsistence (or
>maybe more) through theft, it becomes that person's career and represent the
>whole of their survival skills; then there is the drug trade, which is purely
>demand driven, no matter how severe the punishment for selling drugs become
>the most you can do is increase the cost of the drugs to offset the risks
>taken in bringing the product to market, clearly when we can see entire
>networks of drug dealers killing each other off for their market shares
>deterrents for this type of crime are going to be hard to find; finally we
>have crimes of passion in which individuals become so distraught they take
>extreme action enturely without regard for the consequences, so clearly
>deterrents are pretty much impossible here.
also, with an element of corruption to be considered, it is quite possible
the local super would be little more than a taxi service. ..
>The other sorts of crimes, usually far more profitable, are the white collar
>crimes committed with a pen or a PC and are precisely the sort of crimes that
>are almost never encountered or dealt with by comic book superheroes.
>Frankly, a superhero in the real world is unlikely to have much more impact
>on crime than one has in the comix. Which is one of the reasons why Bruce
>and Pete have motivations for fighting crime that fail the real world reality
>test, passion for protecting people and for battling crime are better served
>somewhere other than in hand to hand combat with crooks (again in the real
>world not in four color comics).
>
i would still argue that a superhero saves lots of lives, battles super-baddies,
halts disasters, zaps people with uzi's, stopps drivebys, repairs mir,
and hell- go psudo-nazi in places like bosnia, and take away mr malocovich's (spelling?)
toys. . . . .
>Carter Humphrey
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> BeerCarboy@AOL.com
>
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 13:03:09 +1000
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From: Happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: 4 color principles
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At 01:52 PM 8/9/97 -0400, you wrote:
>For the record, I'm NOT advocating death for criminals (I oppose the death
>penalty), I just think that the potential danger of robbing a 7-11
>(getting shot by the police) might discourage some potential criminals
>from doing so, while the less lethal methods of Superman might only do so
>to a lesser extent. And, no, this is not a criticism of the police; I
>realize they have to use guns to protect themselves and others, at least
>in this country where guns are so common.
>
but what about the fact that, """"in real life""" people may be scared ********
of anything with superpowers? I know i would!
>And just because I'm a backwoods hick from Maine doesn't mean I have to be
>a violent one (actually, Maine is one of about 10 states without the death
>penalty, and no, I am not trying to start a flame war about the death
>penalty).
>
>-Eric
>
awwww, no fun! *lol*
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 13:21:07 +1000
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From: Happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Champions Genre Selection
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At 02:02 PM 8/9/97 -0700, you wrote:
>A campaign is, for me, most exciting when the GM has a literary vision
>that he wants to express via the campaign. He then invites the players
>to explore that vision with him. When the players join the campaign,
>part of the contract is to try to cooperate with the GM in exploring his
>story, within reasonable limits. In turn, the GM's responsibility is to
>define the limits of the campaign as narrowly as possible for the story
>that he wishes to tell and to cooperate with the players in bringing
>their ideas to the table.
>
>It is the responsibility of the GM to be true to his own vision, rather
>than to "cater" to the majority of players. Any role-player worthy of
>the name should be able to find a satisfying role within any well-run
>campaign, even if the setting is somewhat (or even completely) cliched.
>
i would disagree- the players contribution is greater than the gm's-
after all, there's more of them *g*
furthemore, i would suggest that the players have a stake in this vision-
it is THEIR perspective which gives the setting value;
the GM already has his ideas- he's not some benevolent genius showing off his wares
to the fortunate mortal players- quite the opposite, the gm's vision provides the FRAMEWORK, but it is the differing perceptions and actions of the *players* who give
this vision true value- as with all things, existance only comes with being percieved,
and interpreted; the players should disagree, and do what the gm doesn't want to do:
otherwise, they may as well be (shudder) actors, on the gm's stage, with the gm's script.
My point would be that it's up to the gm to decide what the genre truly is, and
what his assumptions are: he must be willing to dispense with some of the latter,
or else it will never be more than their vision. . .
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>Snide aside:
>I will agree that some players have a jones ;-) about proving their own
>cleverness, and see their mission in life as busting up cliches. What
>they fail to see is that they are too late! The cliches were busted up
>and put back together again long before Dave Arneson started running a
>fantasy setting called Blackmoor using the Chainmail rules!
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>
u-huh? like: it's ok, the environment's not damaged! it was already dameaged when
europe defoliated (refoliated?) and froze over greenland! *lol*
>But, to return to my original point, it is generally far easier for the
>players to adapt to what the GM has in mind than vice-versa, because they
>have a far lesser stake in both time and emotion in the campaign. I
>would therefore dispute that the GM has the responsibility of "catering"
>to the majority of players.
>
rubbish: all participants have equal share, or the gm's just a jumped-up egomaniac. .
>--
><------------------------------------------------------->
>Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
>Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
>http://www.erols.com/robtwest
>
>
>
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 10 Aug 97 03:36:00 GMT
Subject: AoE/Invisible Mental Pow
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Path: october!opal
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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h > From: Eric Burns <burns@usmcug.usm.maine.edu>
h > Subject: AoE/Invisible Mental Powers
h > To: champ-l@omg.org
h >
h > If you have an area of effect mental power, do you have to make an ECV
h > roll to hit a target in that area?
Yes, it's a sepparate attack roll for each target in the area.
h > Is the power still invisible to normal senses?
Yes.
h > If you have AoE Telepathy can you as a question of every
h > person in that area?
Probalby it would be asking the same question of every person
you hit in the area.
h > If someone uses an Invisible mental power like telepathy or mind
h > control on you, can you still make ECV rolls to resist it?
h >
You have your full DECV wether you can see the mental power coming
or not. You also get to make EGO rolls to break out automatically -
you don't have use an action or be aware of the attack.
h > -Eric
h >
h >
h > ---
h > * Origin: Usenet:Fidonet: Red October Gateway (1:143/241.0)
___
* OFFLINE 1.58 * Goodmanized for your Frustration.
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 15:01:02 +1000
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From: Happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: 4 color principles
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At 05:22 PM 8/9/97 +0000, you wrote:
>Well, Shouty Boy (It _was_ your idea.:), I do not believe that the
>death penalty is an effective deterent to crime. I may even agree
>that the police use of guns may not be a deterent to crime, only a
>necessary tool for arresting criminals. However, the threat of death
>certainly _does_ disuade many criminals, and I can easily prove it.
>
>"Huh," you say. "How's that again?"
>
>If you were told, "Pull that switch and you will be instantly
>killed," you'd be detered, wouldn't you?
>
hows about : "pull that switch and you MAY be instantly killed"
shouted from several hundered meters away?
>When people say "the death penalty doesn't deter criminals", that
>isn't what they mean. What they mean is, "A death penalty that is so
>ineffective that a criminal is more likely to be released someday
>than to be executed is not significantly more effective at detering
>other murderers than a sentence of life in prison, usually without
>possibility of parole."
>
i would disagree- as already suggested by others, crime is often borne of desperation:
and if you could instantly catch criminals, how many could form a life of crime?
now hows about the criminal factories we call jails. . . *l*
>Instant, guaranteed death is a powerful deterent. Quick, possible
>death is also somewhat effective. For example, there are more
>burglaries in Great Britain than the U.S., and burglaries of
>_occupied_ dwellings are 5 times more common. In the U.S., a burglar
>is as likely to be shot while burglaring a residence as to be
>arrested, tried, convicted, and sent to prison. In Great Britain,
>most guns are banned, and shooting a burglar will send _you_ to
>prison.
>
you are arguing for a completly different situation? this 'death trap' hypothesis
has no reference to the true criminal justice system. . .
>See a connection?
>
i'm amased you can. ..
>The death penalty, especially as used in the U.S., is not
>significantly more effective than life in prison. However, given a
>choice between two crimes, one with a significant chance of getting
>you killed, one without, that are otherwise identical, guess which
>one is committed more often?
>
what, how about we get away from such meaningless astractions?
We are trying to tackle potential reality- this sort of
oversimplification leads to nothing to innacuracy. .
>Filksinger
>"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
>
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 18:30:15 +1000
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From: Happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: 4 color principles
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At 12:59 AM 8/10/97 +0000, you wrote:
>
>What does that have to do with it? The person to whom I was
>responding made a remark which seemed to indicate that the "threat of
>death" had no impact whatsoever on crime. It read as an absolute, so
>I am using an extreme to argue the point. An absolute applies in
>_all_ cases, even extreme ones; thus, to prove it is not an absolute
>only requires that I find a situation in which it does not hold.
>
no one was agruing an absolute- no one was even *close* to arguing an absolute. . .
>> >When people say "the death penalty doesn't deter criminals", that
>> >isn't what they mean. What they mean is, "A death penalty that is so
>> >ineffective that a criminal is more likely to be released someday
>> >than to be executed is not significantly more effective at detering
>> >other murderers than a sentence of life in prison, usually without
>> >possibility of parole."
>> >
>>
>> i would disagree-
>
>You disagree with what, exactly? I'm not certain whether or not
>this is a disagreement with the statement I made, or with opinions
>which I indicated might be mine, but which were side issues to my
>point.
>
what i meant is posted in later areas.
>I claimed that people _in general_, claiming that "the death penalty
>doesn't deter criminals", are comparing the death penalty to the
>alternative punishments, rather than to no punishment at all.
>
sooo. . . .
>Since that is what I said, then you disagreeing means that you
>believe that people who say, "The death penalty is not a deterent"
>are actually saying, "No person who would commit a murder when there
>is no punishment would fail to commit a murder in the face of the
>death penalty."
>
yeah, THAT's what i said-
*sigh*
what i meant was - "look below for my reasoning, instead of making
trite and ludicrous non-points about your rather odd grasp of logic"
>If that is not what you are disagreeing with, then you need to be
>clearer. Simply saying, "I disagree", without saying what you
>disagree _with_ is unclear, especially in this instance.
>
THIS is what i meant by dissagree, you yutz:
>> as already suggested by others, crime is often
>> borne of desperation: and if you could instantly catch criminals,
>> how many could form a life of crime?
>
>What does "catching criminals instantly" have to do with "is the
>threat of death a deterent to crime?"
>
you suggested the possibility of an 'instant kill' form of
punishment- a perfect "absolute concept" death penalty-
i was suggesting that if cops could catch people so easily,
and instantly determine their guilt, most career criminals
would never get past their first petty crime. .
>> now hows about the criminal
>> factories we call jails. . . *l*
>
>I see even less connection here. As best I can tell, this is an
>argument in favor of the death penalty, to keep people from becoming
>career criminals by way of learning how in prison. If this is not
>what you are saying, then you are not communicating clearly.
No, if this is not what i'm saying (it's not) YOU
are misenterpreting my words in an attempt to support your own case-
Furthermore, please stop misquoting me and acting like it's my fault-
yer dopey 'reverse-absolutist" logic didn't make much sence to me,
you don't see me saying:
"so, by that i take it you mean i'm right and everything you say
ceases to exist, being as you are, endorsing a somantic paradox?"
>> you are arguing for a completly different situation? this 'death
>> trap' hypothesis has no reference to the true criminal justice
>> system. . .
>
>How does, "Criminals, known as "burglars", who commit the non-violent
>crime "burglary", avoid it in countries where being shot is as likely
>as going to prison, at a ratio of over 5-1 vs countries where getting
>shot almost never happens" equate to a "death trap"? You may
>disagree, but what does that have to do with a "death trap"?
>
it DOESN'T!! that's my point- you start off with an ultra-abstract idea
of death-switches and try to link it to a case-study?
>Your statement appears to belong to a different part of the post
>entirely, as it has no relevance to the part just before it. Since
>it apparently belongs to a different part of the post, I will respond
>to it separately, at the end.
>
do you get things backwards as a living? you can't try to pretend your
rather vague british crime statistics can be used in the same
argument as "Absolutist concept abuse r us" earlier on. .
>> >See a connection?
>> >
>>
>> i'm amased you can. ..
>
>Since your statement following the previous paragraph has no
>connection to the paragraph that I can determine, I cannot begin to
>tell you where your thinking and mine diverge.
>
so let me get this straight, you put together a bunch of semi-relater
hoohey and it's my fault for replying in simmilar format?
>> what, how about we get away from such meaningless astractions? We
>> are trying to tackle potential reality- this sort of
>> oversimplification leads to nothing to innacuracy. .
>
>1) I am not dealing with "reality", I am responding to a statement
>that implied an absolute. I am responding to the absolute, in an
>attempt to show that the absolute isn't actually absolute. Realism
>isn't what is called for in debunking an "absolute".
>
Nobody implied a bloody absolute!
>If I said, "The armor of a tank would make it impossible to hurt me,"
>then I am making a statement of an absolute that is not true. To show
>that the absolute is not true, the statement, "A nuclear weapon could
>hurt you" is a perfectly good demonstration that the "absolute"
>isn't.
>
once again, you have missed the point of the argument- you misinterpret
someon's post, and base your argument on your own error- well done, you've
found a way to ""win any"" argument you have.
>2) The "death trap" scenario happens thousands of times a year in the
>U.S. Rather than a switch, however, it goes like this: "Get your
>hands off my daughter, or I will shoot you," or "Drop that baseball
>bat, or I will shoot you," or any number of other, similar "threats
>of death". Studies show that pointing a gun at a criminal and
>demanding they stop committing the crime is quite effective.
>
really? then, why do criminals get shot? is it failure of communication?
exactly those threats fail constantly- and the police mentality
that goes with assuming they work is what causes the death,
because a cop trained to think like that stays put when he should be
backing off- and please don't throw that "daughter" crap at me:
down here we aren't really intimidated by the classic "threat
to your family" farce expoused by various "anti-crime"
politicians. .
>Since the original claim was that "threats of death" do not deter
>criminals, I submit that these "threats of death", which often do
>stop crimes, are a counter argument. The original example, with the
>switch, was nothing more than an attempt to demonstrate that the
>claim did not hold as an absolute. This example is an attempt to show
>that extremes which show the statement not to be an absolute are
>found in real life.
>
nothing holds as an absolute- and your "realistic" example is a dangerousley
innacurate statement, which killed a french national on the coast down
here a few months ago- he had a breakdown, and a knife, he wasn't threatening anyone,
but the police decided he would stop. . .
PS: this happens against perfectly sane "dangerous criminals" as well. . .
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 09:24:56 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Champions Genre Selection
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>>If 4 people, including the GM, are involved and 3 say "we
>>want a relatively realistic, even heavily realistic, feudal Japan
>>campaign"
>>then the players ALL have an obligation to work within that framework.
>
>no, they don't- the 4th player should leave the game, or the other
>3 should realise that, for instance, if it's the only game going (which
hapens >a
>lot around here) they have an obligation to include the other player-
>and if the other player is not fittting in, it is not his fault-
>The fact is the genre should fit the tastes of ALL the player, not
>the other way around.
Bwhahahahaha!!!! Are you serious? What is this, the Communist School of
Gaming Philosophy (we must insure that all gamers enjoy the same standard of
fun)? Complete and utter rubbish! If 4 out of 5 people want to play a
particular style of game, the 5th person is just out of luck (unless he's
the GM - in which case the other 4 are out of luck :-). Gamemasterins is not
a service _industry_ where the GM must please all the people all the time.
If it was, I'd expect to be paid for it in cold hard cash.
>>3) Just don't play with those people. If their ideas and your's are
>> diametrically opposed, nobody's having fun anyway.
>
>this isn't much of an option, relaay, is it?
>it's like suggesting suicide to avoid a prison term. .
Heh. And here I thought I was engaging in wild overstatement with my
"communist school of gaming" crack. Fact of the matter is, gaming isn't
life. The GM _is_ absolute ruler and arbiter of his campaign, and there's
very little the players can do about it, other than leave. And losing a
gaming group isn't the end of the world - I've gone through stretches of
several years without having a gaming group. You can always come back to it.
>the majority? so let me get this straight, if the group is in majority vote,
>the others can get bent?
Basically, yes. If 75% of my players are pleased with the style of play
we're using, I'm not about to change it for the last 25% - at least not
enough to destroy the enjoyment of my 75% to please my 25%. Good long term
campaigns are more valuable than individual players.
>i don't think so! I'm not talking about
>"sleepless nights", and once again, i'm speaking GENERALLY,
>all i would suggest is that much conflict of this sort can be traced back to GM
>arrogance and lack of imagination.
And just as much can be traced to player lack of flexibility, lack of
maturity, and demanding nature. To swing the example back to the specific;
the player insisted on playing a peasant, even after being told of the
restrictions involved. He could have played the exact same character
(unarmed combat master) from another level of social strata (priest,
merchant, even a samurai) and suffer fewer restrictions. But he didn't, and
then he chafed under his social position to the point where the other
(samurais) weren't going to take it any longer. His fault? You bet!!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"HEY! Give my nuclear warhead RIGHT BACK!!"
-Gold Digger #35
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
X-Sender: champion@mailhost.cyberhighway.net
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 09:17:47 -0700
From: Jim Dickinson <champion@cyberhighway.net>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: 4 color super lines
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At 01:33 PM 8/5/97 -0700, Richard G Schwerdtfeger wrote:
> One of my groups' favorite lines is the immortal
>
> "We've come to kick a$$ and chew bubblegum.
> And we're all out of bubblegum!"
>
> Richard
A favorite villain line from the movie SPAWN:
"I'm going to cur you up into 50 pieces, and mail you to every state!"
_________________________________________________________________
Jim Dickinson -=- Portland. OR USA -=- champion@cyberhighway.net
Castle Game Knight: http://www.cyberhighway.net/~jd/cgk
Join the Circle of HEROs: http://www.cyberhighway.net/~jd/coh
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Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 12:22:29 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net (Unverified)
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Champions Genre Selection(looooooooooong)
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>really? What about the gm being challenged? gee, here i was thinking the gm
>wasn't a god- are you suggesting that one brain is better than three?
Depends on the brain. One brain in the private sector is worth three (or
more) in the civil service, after all :-).
>>But it's not really the GM's fault either - and too often the player acts
>>like it is. In fact, I'd say that it is the players fault, as he can't adapt
>>his playing style to the reality around him.
>
>but he's already being a good pc- he's not demanding magic or regeneration
>or anything- people underestimate the concessions players make. .
I guess I should want your players, if that's what you consider the worst
behaviour. I keep running into these idiots who think they're massively more
clever than the rest of the group and spend their time trying to screw
everyone over - you know the type, constantly playing the mentalist with the
'mischevious' psych.lim.
>but to what extent? i'm talking again about the contribution and
>obediance already tendered by the players- are we really giving them full
>credit for that?
It looks like you're giving it more weight than the amount of effort put in
by a GM. A player has only to do things when the game is actually on, and
only has to concentrate on himself. The GM's load is considerably larger -
and it _does_ far outweigh the contributions of any single player - maybe
even those of any two players.
>no, it's not a matter of someone needing to be blamed: my point is, if the
gm >says
>"you can't do this", it's up to them to say "but you can do this!"
Whereas I'm more of the opinion that if a GM says "You can't do this" he
should add the phrase "because (blah-blah-blah)". While it's nice is the GM
is an idea factory of player character concepts, it's not a job requirement.
With the exception of completely newbie roleplayers, it's the player's job
to come up with a character that will 'work' within the framework of the
campaign.
>but was he really given much of a chance to consider such options?
I'll turn this around and say "Did the character even try to consider such
options?"
Point being, that everyone in a game has a certain share of the creative
responsibility. The GM has the lion's share, having to come up with both the
background, the 'ground rules' and the non-player characters. A player is
responsible for _one_ thing - his own character. Asking the GM to share this
burden as well (which I'll point out that GMs often do anyways) is unfair
and lazyness on the player's part.
Further, if _one_ player in a campaign isn't 'having fun' while the rest are
satisfied, it's wrong to blame the game master. I'll admit that it's also
often wrong to blame the character - the situation may simply be the
combination of several unforseen factors - like an unavoidable personality
clash between the GM and player, or player to player (some people just don't
get along, for no particular reason). But in general, GMs can only bend so
far to accomodate a single player. If that's not far enough, the GM has
fulfilled his job and it's up to the player to close the gap, or leave.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"HEY! Give my nuclear warhead RIGHT BACK!!"
-Gold Digger #35
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
From: BCBattle@aol.com
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 12:49:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: 4 color principles
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>Yes, but what if superheroes appeared in all major cities? I'm no
criminologist, but I suspect that some people are just career criminals,
with little knowledge about how to do anything else. Superheroes might
actually encourage crime, since Superman is powerful enough so that he
does not have to shoot to kill. If you are robbing a 7-11 and waving a
gun around, the police might decide to shoot before you can take a hostage
or kill someone. Supes (old powers) could just go in with blinding speed
and take your gun away. You'd go to jail, but you wouldn't be dead or
injured (except your pride).<
The problem is that heroes of Superman's power level are incredibly few and
far between. Remember that while we're following Superman's exploits in
Metropolis, we have no idea of what heinous crimes are taking place in other
parts of the world that he's not attending to. So Superman can snatch a gun
out of a criminal's hand before that criminal can put a bullet in the brain
of a 7-11 clerk? Can he at the same time stop two trains from colliding in
Billings, Montana while catching a falling airliner over New York? I tend to
belive that the scope of one's super powers will dictate the kind of aid you
deliver to the world at large. For instance, Superman is supremely powerful.
However, instead of meaning that he's always going to be there for every
petty theft and mugging that goes down, most likely, he'll devote the vast
majority of his time to far bigger situations, like saving villages from
erupting volcanoes and the like.
But, even though I said that most criminals would head for the hills if
superheroes existed, I really do mean that in the same sense as the cockroach
analogy. They'd be back as soon as they thought it was clear for the same
reason that you mentioned -- many criminals know of no other way to get by in
life. Crime is all they know. But, I don't believe for a second that they'd
carry on business as usual. Most likely, they'd relegate themselves to
perimeter "crime zones" that are generally outside a hero's scope of
influence, and take to preying on unwary victims who stray too far from help.
Sounds like a bad science fiction novel, I know but seems most likely.
Also, it's more than just standard four-color supervillains. Think for a
minute how many white supremists, black supremists, KKK'ers and neo-Nazis
there are lurking out in the world. Even though in comics these types rarely
get their hands on anything more dangerous than assault rifles, if this were
reality, we'd have to contend with the fact that they would be just as
eligible for super powers as anybody else. And let's not forget the Middle
East. All it would take is a handful of moderately powered fanatics or even
one or two highly powered ones and you've got a superpowered war on your
hands. With these issues to contend with, I really think that petty crime
would be almost lost in the shuffle.
It's a bit of a ramble I know but that's what I mean, basically -- that the
chaos which would ensue from a superpowered world would brush aside most
petty crime issues. I believe that if the world had such beings living in
it, it would quickly become an apocalyptic wasteland (despite sun dresses) in
which case petty crime would probably become a way of life for most common
people just as a point of survival, if for no other reason than there would
be plenty of villainous (or just misguided) individuals who would use their
powers to establish their own pocket empires all over the planet, thus
enslaving, chasing away or annihilating the majority common populace. So, my
response to the earlier post was simply that it's a waste of time to present
an argument for or against comics based on reality.
"I've said 'Jiminy Jellickers' so many times, the words have lost their
meaning!"
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 14:34:51 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Champions Genre Selection
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>>Bwhahahahaha!!!! Are you serious? What is this, the Communist School of
>>Gaming Philosophy (we must insure that all gamers enjoy the same standard of
>>fun)? Complete and utter rubbish! If 4 out of 5 people want to play a
>>particular style of game, the 5th person is just out of luck (unless he's
>>the GM - in which case the other 4 are out of luck :-). Gamemasterins is not
>>a service _industry_ where the GM must please all the people all the time.
>>If it was, I'd expect to be paid for it in cold hard cash.
>
>Not much chance of that. You must have the other players in your area pretty
>intimidated by the difficulty of gamemastering if they are willing to put up
>wih that sort of arrogance. The game does not exist because the benevolent
>gm sweats blood, the game exists because players breath life into it.
You misunderstand me. Players do indeed breathe life into a campaign - if I
didn't want players I'd just write stories on my computer. That said,
however, there are _lots_ of people who love to play in a RPG, but wouldn't
be caught dead as the Game Master, for various reasons - time constraints,
insecurity, personal preference, general lazyness, and even lack of creativity.
And I'll point out that the game _does_ exist because there's a GM to
breathe life into it. He's not the only one doing so, but with exceptions,
no GM = no game (generally, those exceptions we call 'board games' or 'card
games' or 'war games'). Which goes a ways to explaining the recent
popularity of CCGs (aiie! We've drifted into the CCG territory!) - no GM
required.
Anyway. Given their druthers, most people would rather PC than GM - and
that's what gives the GM the power and authority in the game. My example
above showed that 80% of the people in the particular campaign were
'pleased' with the choice of genre and style of play. It's nice to get 100%,
but you'll never please all of the people all of the time - and some people
you can't _ever_ please.
>>Heh. And here I thought I was engaging in wild overstatement with my
>>"communist school of gaming" crack. Fact of the matter is, gaming isn't
>>life. The GM _is_ absolute ruler and arbiter of his campaign, and there's
>>very little the players can do about it, other than leave. And losing a
>>gaming group isn't the end of the world - I've gone through stretches of
>>several years without having a gaming group. You can always come back to it.
>
>Even if you were driven out for not being sufficently conformist to the
>groups interpretation of reality? If no one is having any fun, then
Hold it right there! This isn't a discussion about the GM forcing his genre
down the throats of ALL available players! This is a discussion (so far) has
been about ONE (or a small minority) having difficulties while the rest are
happy with the situation.
>ostracizing someone who tries to be a little different than expectations is
>the solution rather than trying to restructure the game? See, it is a game
>and should be fun for EVERYONE playing it, if the GM's only response to that
>is "my way or the highway," then something important has been lost.
No, if you've been paying attention, it's "Our way or the highway". I did
state above that the GM is absolute master (yadda yadda) of his campaign and
there's little anyone can do about it other than leave. But don't
misconstrue that to mean that I, as a GM, try to force my players into a
game where nobody is happy - nor do I advocate anyone else doing so. But I'd
be a fool to think that I could satisfy completely _everyone_ in a
particular campaign. If even only half of the people are happy I'd seriously
consider overhauling a game. But one out of four, five, or six? Not unless
they're one of my close personal friends! That's not to say, either, that I
won't try and help the dissatisfied player to become satisfied. But I won't
destroy the rest of the campaign to accomodate that one person.
>>>the majority? so let me get this straight, if the group is in majority
>>>vote,
>>>the others can get bent?
>
>>Basically, yes. If 75% of my players are pleased with the style of play
>>we're using, I'm not about to change it for the last 25% - at least not
>>enough to destroy the enjoyment of my 75% to please my 25%. Good long term
>>campaigns are more valuable than individual players.
>
>You can't have a good long term campaign without individual players. Of
>course you can't destroy the fun of the other 75% to please 25%, but it
>should not be necessary.
This is my point. If I can satisfy 100% of the players, fantastic. But if I
can't reasonably please that last 25% without it costing me the rest of the
people, well, sorry, but I'm a little more political than that :-).
>And remember, the same people who are in the
>majority today may be in a minority tomorrow and inflexibility will
>eventually make all of the players unhappy.
I'm willing to be flexible, but the players must also be reasonable. In the
aforementioned Peasant/Samurai affair, was the peasant being reasonable? Not
according to the rest of the group, apparantly - and lacking the 'whole'
story, I'm inclined to agree with them - especially given that I've had at
least some interaction with one of the particpants, who seems at the very
least to be a reasonable individual. (Objectivity? What's that? :-)
<snip example of game gone bad>
>So it can happen that way as well. These specific cases though are unfair to
>others who may have been involved in them and they can be used to illustrate
>almost any point. So arguing eneral ideas is probably much superior.
Probably, but specific examples are useful in illustrating the general
principle - which is why I keep using them. Specific examples are useful as
learning tools. Let's use yours :-) to illustrate what can go wrong:
1.) 13-14 people in a single game. VERY difficult to manage successfully,
especially if you're interested in serious roleplaying, which is time
intensive as well as individually focussed (often).
2.) Misleading GM. Given point 1.), I would have been dubious, as you were,
about the 'quality' of roleplaying in the game.
3.) Difficulty in Suspension of Disbelief. Indeed, finding a helicopter
control computer in an isolated jungle base with no helipad does strain the
credulity more than a little. Were you the only one shaking your head over
that point?
4.) Throwing a Tiff. You lost your cool. I'm not going to condemn you over
that (much ;-)...shit happens), but it did get you ostracised from that
gaming group - which you've had lots of fun with before, and could in the
future.
So, from this specific example, we can draw a few 'generalizations', as follows:
1.) Don't try to game with more people than you as a GM can handle.
2.) As a GM, try to be honest to your PCs about the style of game you're
going to play.
3.) Try to make _sense_ as a GM. People should not (in most genres) be
pulling atomic bombs out of their shirt pockets.
4.) Don't lose your cool, because it never helps!
Look, at least 4 helpful pieces of advice gleaned from one specific example
of gaming - as well as the consequences of not following those pieces of
advice, illustrated by a real world example.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"HEY! Give my nuclear warhead RIGHT BACK!!"
-Gold Digger #35
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 08:44:32 +1000
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Subject: Re: 4 color principles
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At 12:49 PM 8/10/97 -0400, you wrote:
>The problem is that heroes of Superman's power level are incredibly few and
>far between. Remember that while we're following Superman's exploits in
>Metropolis, we have no idea of what heinous crimes are taking place in other
>parts of the world that he's not attending to. So Superman can snatch a gun
>out of a criminal's hand before that criminal can put a bullet in the brain
>of a 7-11 clerk? Can he at the same time stop two trains from colliding in
>Billings, Montana while catching a falling airliner over New York? I tend to
>belive that the scope of one's super powers will dictate the kind of aid you
>deliver to the world at large. For instance, Superman is supremely powerful.
> However, instead of meaning that he's always going to be there for every
>petty theft and mugging that goes down, most likely, he'll devote the vast
>majority of his time to far bigger situations, like saving villages from
>erupting volcanoes and the like.
>
so how may this equate to spidey-level powers, with reguards to the whole "waste"
scenario? any opinions out there?
>But, even though I said that most criminals would head for the hills if
>superheroes existed, I really do mean that in the same sense as the cockroach
>analogy. They'd be back as soon as they thought it was clear for the same
>reason that you mentioned -- many criminals know of no other way to get by in
>life. Crime is all they know. But, I don't believe for a second that they'd
>carry on business as usual. Most likely, they'd relegate themselves to
>perimeter "crime zones" that are generally outside a hero's scope of
>influence, and take to preying on unwary victims who stray too far from help.
> Sounds like a bad science fiction novel, I know but seems most likely.
> Also, it's more than just standard four-color supervillains. Think for a
>minute how many white supremists, black supremists, KKK'ers and neo-Nazis
>there are lurking out in the world. Even though in comics these types rarely
>get their hands on anything more dangerous than assault rifles, if this were
>reality, we'd have to contend with the fact that they would be just as
>eligible for super powers as anybody else. And let's not forget the Middle
>East. All it would take is a handful of moderately powered fanatics or even
>one or two highly powered ones and you've got a superpowered war on your
>hands. With these issues to contend with, I really think that petty crime
>would be almost lost in the shuffle.
>
sounds like a pretty cool game. . *eg*
>It's a bit of a ramble I know but that's what I mean, basically -- that the
>chaos which would ensue from a superpowered world would brush aside most
>petty crime issues. I believe that if the world had such beings living in
>it, it would quickly become an apocalyptic wasteland (despite sun dresses) in
>which case petty crime would probably become a way of life for most common
>people just as a point of survival, if for no other reason than there would
>be plenty of villainous (or just misguided) individuals who would use their
>powers to establish their own pocket empires all over the planet, thus
>enslaving, chasing away or annihilating the majority common populace. So, my
>response to the earlier post was simply that it's a waste of time to present
>an argument for or against comics based on reality.
>
okie-dokey. . *g*
>"I've said 'Jiminy Jellickers' so many times, the words have lost their
>meaning!"
>
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 08:52:47 +1000
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Subject: Re: Champions Genre Selection
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At 09:24 AM 8/10/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>>If 4 people, including the GM, are involved and 3 say "we
>>>want a relatively realistic, even heavily realistic, feudal Japan
>>>campaign"
>>>then the players ALL have an obligation to work within that framework.
>>
>>no, they don't- the 4th player should leave the game, or the other
>>3 should realise that, for instance, if it's the only game going (which
>hapens >a
>>lot around here) they have an obligation to include the other player-
>>and if the other player is not fittting in, it is not his fault-
>>The fact is the genre should fit the tastes of ALL the player, not
>>the other way around.
>
>Bwhahahahaha!!!! Are you serious? What is this, the Communist School of
>Gaming Philosophy (we must insure that all gamers enjoy the same standard of
>fun)? Complete and utter rubbish! If 4 out of 5 people want to play a
>particular style of game, the 5th person is just out of luck (unless he's
>the GM - in which case the other 4 are out of luck :-). Gamemasterins is not
>a service _industry_ where the GM must please all the people all the time.
>If it was, I'd expect to be paid for it in cold hard cash.
>
i think we may be playing different games here- I thought it was a case of
having fun with friends, obviously for you it's more of an ego-trip with
subordinates.
>>this isn't much of an option, relaay, is it?
>>it's like suggesting suicide to avoid a prison term. .
>
>Heh. And here I thought I was engaging in wild overstatement with my
>"communist school of gaming" crack. Fact of the matter is, gaming isn't
>life. The GM _is_ absolute ruler and arbiter of his campaign, and there's
>very little the players can do about it, other than leave. And losing a
>gaming group isn't the end of the world - I've gone through stretches of
>several years without having a gaming group. You can always come back to it.
>
so you would suggest an insular elitest view because you can't wrap your head
around the idea of communication?
>
>Basically, yes. If 75% of my players are pleased with the style of play
>we're using, I'm not about to change it for the last 25% - at least not
>enough to destroy the enjoyment of my 75% to please my 25%. Good long term
>campaigns are more valuable than individual players.
>
so, the enjoyment of the samurais depended on bossing around farm-boy?
a good gm finds time for ALL players- not just "most". . . .
>
>
>And just as much can be traced to player lack of flexibility, lack of
>maturity, and demanding nature.
i'll just put "GM" in there, and it sounds a hell of a lot more valid-
the gm's already absolute, how can the player obeying him be 'mature'?
the same way shutting up when an elder says to is, huh?
>To swing the example back to the specific;
why? what's to be gained? oh, except you having something to back this mess up. . .
>the player insisted on playing a peasant, even after being told of the
>restrictions involved. He could have played the exact same character
>(unarmed combat master) from another level of social strata (priest,
>merchant, even a samurai) and suffer fewer restrictions. But he didn't, and
>then he chafed under his social position to the point where the other
>(samurais) weren't going to take it any longer. His fault? You bet!!
>
once again soeak GENERALLY! there is NO POINT to this discussion if your concepts need
the "player from hell" motif to sound valid. . .
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 09:21:23 +1000
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Subject: Re: 4 color principles
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At 11:49 AM 8/10/97 +0000, you wrote:
>On 10 Aug 97 at 18:30, Happyelf! wrote:
>
>> At 12:59 AM 8/10/97 +0000, you wrote:
>> >
>> >What does that have to do with it? The person to whom I was
>> >responding made a remark which seemed to indicate that the "threat of
>> >death" had no impact whatsoever on crime. It read as an absolute, so
>> >I am using an extreme to argue the point. An absolute applies in
>> >_all_ cases, even extreme ones; thus, to prove it is not an absolute
>> >only requires that I find a situation in which it does not hold.
>> >
>>
>> no one was agruing an absolute- no one was even *close* to arguing
>> an absolute. . .
>
>" Superheroes might actually encourage crime, since Superman is
>powerful enough so that he does not have to shoot to kill."
>
>"you suggest the threat of death dissuads criminals?
>well, i suppose it's only an argument, but your logic sways a bit
>close to hicksville for my liking. . .*g*"
>
>The first man suggests that _maybe_ crime would go up, because of a
>reduced risk of death to criminals. The second indicated scorn for
>the idea, in an insulting manner ("hicksville" springs to mind).
>
>I did not say he was _arguing_ an absolute, I was saying that what he
>was writing _read_ as an absolute. By treating the original poster in
>this offhand and insulting fashion, he implied that the idea that
>"the threat of death (in the form of being killed _during_ the crime)
>_might_ reduce crime" was ridiculous, and that the threat of death
>had _no effect_ on crime.
>
no offence, but that's the most unconvincing argument in the
history of unconvincingness *l*
>> sooo. . . .
>
>So, you said, "I disagree." Since the above was what I said, then, "I
>disagree" appears to be saying that the above statement is wrong. My
>point was that your "I disagree" was either misplaced or unclear.
>
it is wrong! i was placing rebuttals point by point as they occured to me-
unlike some people, my argument is based on opposition, not ignoring my
opponent.
>> >> as already suggested by others, crime is often
>> >> borne of desperation: and if you could instantly catch criminals,
>> >> how many could form a life of crime?
>
>But that is a statement in two parts, apparently. One, as far as I
>can tell, argues that criminals are desparate, so that the threat of
>death will not disuade them. The others arguing that instantly
>catching criminals would stop criminals from forming a life of crime.
>Thus, I was not certain exactly what you were disagreeing with.
>
i was putting up to points of contention- they are complimentary, not contradictory,
especially if you take into account the fact we neither of us have the slightest clue what would really happen. . ..
>
>Lets make something clear. I did not state that this was an instant
>death penalty, I stated that you were _told_ it was instant death. My
>point was that the _threat_ of death acted as a deterent, which the
>original poster indicated strongly, in insulting language, it did
>not.
>
you postulated a hypothetical form of punishment- i was simply suggesting the illogic inherent in an absolutist viewpoint. . .
>I _am not_ arguing _anything_ based upon that interpretation. I
>stated clearly that this was _as best I can tell_ what you were
>saying. I made _no_ arguments based upon this interpretation. I
>do _not_ think this is what you are saying, I am saying that I do not
>know what you mean, and am telling you how it reads in an attempt to
>get you to clarify. I do not intentionally misinterpret what you say,
>I am trying to tell you that I found your statements to be unclear.
>
how about you just say "huh?" instead of basing an argument on
an exttrmly questionable set of assumptions reguarding my subject matter?
>>
>> do you get things backwards as a living? you can't try to pretend
>> your rather vague british crime statistics can be used in the same
>> argument as "Absolutist concept abuse r us" earlier on. .
>
>They are both arguments against the original claim, one treating it
>as the absolute that it _seemed_ to be, the other to a very similar
>situation to the original- the possibility of being killed during a
>crime.
>
very well. . .
>>
>> so let me get this straight, you put together a bunch of
>> semi-relater hoohey and it's my fault for replying in simmilar
>> format?
>
>Your statements were placed, not next to the points you were
>apparently arguing with, but next to a point which _you_ say were
>unconnected to the point you were arguing with. When I asked, "See
>the connection?" I was asking if you saw the connection between
>burglarers apparently avoiding crimes which carried an increased
>threat of death to my point that the threat of death to criminals
>_sometimes_ prevents them from committing crimes.
>
you just argued that there was no link! oh, wait, that was the other link-
this is my point: this argument's all over the place already. . . .
>> Nobody implied a bloody absolute!
>
>I submit that by ridiculing an idea in an insulting fashion, you at
>least appear to be taking an absolutist stand. You may disagree if
>you wish, of course, but at least now you know the direction in which
>I was coming from. I do not necessarily require that you accept that
>the statement I was responding to was an absolute, I only ask that
>you accept that _I_ read it to be an extreme statement, possibly an
>absolute.
>
>
An absolute statement has noting to do with bad manners: if i say
"the eggs go over there, stupid!"
do most people, any people get the impression i'm talking about all
the eggs ever to exist? That i'm suggesting the person in question
construct a huge egg stockpile the size of the giza complex?
or any similar absolutist viewpoint?
no!
>Before you tell me that he didn't mean that extreme, I might point
>out that I was only responding to one interpretation of what he said.
>I don't know what he meant, because he was unclear. He made no actual
>statement, remember, but merely ridiculed another idea.
>
well, by that logic i can accuse you of being a martian because you have
little arrows beside your text, like they do when martians talk
alien langi\uages in comics *g* .
>> really? then, why do criminals get shot?
>
>I said it was a deterent. The definition of deterent includes those
>things which can influence people against something, but don't
>always work. For every criminal killed in self defense with a gun,
>there are roughly 1000 who aren't. They flee, or surrender, or
>(rarely, but somewhat more often than they are killed) are shot but
>wounded.
>
is the gun the pivotal concept? do those criminals ever get to that point-
is it simply being caught, or something completly unrelated? I'd say so
for 90% of such situations. . . and the losses outweigh the gains. .
>>is it failure of
>> communication?
>
>Sometimes, though not necessarily. A criminal sometimes doesn't
>believe that the other person will shoot them. The gun holder
>attempts to communicate what they said in the threat, the criminal
>hears "I'm trying to scare you, but won't actually shoot you."
>
ok, not it's the criminals fault? come on!
>>exactly those threats fail constantly- and the police
>> mentality that goes with assuming they work is what causes the
>> death, because a cop trained to think like that stays put when he
>> should be backing off-
>
>If the cop was justified in drawing the weapon, then he shouldn't be
>backing off. If you mean that he should have used a lighter hand,
>rather than drawing his weapon, then in that situaion he wasn't
>justified.
>
cops should always use lighter hands- this gunhappy farce fails cops too-
by backing off, the have the option to stil draw their weapon at a later time,
AND meanwhile neutralise the threat without blowing some guys brains out-
yeah, i know, streets are tough, blah, blha, whoose fault is that?
>>and please don't throw that "daughter" crap
>> at me: down here we aren't really intimidated by the classic "threat
>> to your family" farce expoused by various "anti-crime" politicians.
>
>I'm sorry, but I wasn't arguing any political point of view. I am
>not arguing in favor of gun ownership. It was nothing but an example
>of a crime that might be stopped by a threat of death. I am not
>trying to intimidate. I am not arguing in favor of a death penalty. I
>am not arguing for threatening criminals with death. I am only
>arguing that threatening a criminal with death _sometimes_ disuades
>them from committing a crime.
>
>> >Since the original claim was that "threats of death" do not deter
>> >criminals, I submit that these "threats of death", which often do
>> >stop crimes, are a counter argument. The original example, with
>> the >switch, was nothing more than an attempt to demonstrate that
>> the >claim did not hold as an absolute. This example is an attempt
>> to show >that extremes which show the statement not to be an
>> absolute are >found in real life. > >
>>
>> nothing holds as an absolute- and your "realistic" example is a
>> dangerousley innacurate statement,
>
>It is innaccurate to state that pointing a gun at a criminal
>_sometimes_ can disuade him from committing a crime? I am not arguing
>that you should own a gun. I am not arguing that pointing guns at
>anyone, criminals or otherwise, is a good thing. I am arguing that
>threatening a criminal with death _sometimes_ disuades a criminal
>from committing a crime.
>
ans _often_ it escalates the situation, causing the death of the "criminal"
(suspect)- more often that you'd like to admit- more often than it
helps. .
>> which killed a french national on
>> the coast down here a few months ago- he had a breakdown, and a
>> knife, he wasn't threatening anyone, but the police decided he would
>> stop. . .
>
>Yes, using a threat of death can result in death, sometimes
>unjustified. I am not arguing in favor of threatening people with
>death. I am arguing that to threaten a criminal with death
>_sometimes_ disuades them from committing a crime.
>
and _often_ it fails! it fails more than it succeeds- MUCH more. . ...
oh, unless yer arguing that keeping people alive is a dumb idea?
the object of the excercise is NOBODY dies- including "criminals". . .
>> PS: this happens against perfectly sane "dangerous criminals" as
>> well. . .
>
>Of course it does. I am not arguing in favor of using a threat of
>death against criminals. I am not arguing in favor of gun ownership.
>I am not arguing that anything is completely effective at stopping a
>criminal. I am only arguing that threatening criminals with death
>_sometimes_ disuades them from committing a crime.
>
this is meaningless: we're back to absolutes, aren't we?
sometimes, threatening a criminal with a banana stopps a crime!!
guess which get's people killed?
>Please, lets take this off the list. Anyone who wants can listen in
>(unlikely, but email me if you wish to do this), but lets not force
>others to listen in. I've spent too much time on the Heinlein Forum
>on SFF.net, so I have a tendency to wander. My apologies to anyone
>who wishes we would just shut up.
>
>Filksinger
>"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
>
how about we just shut up completley? . . . ..
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 09:29:36 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
Subject: Re: Champions Genre Selection(looooooooooong)
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
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X-Hero: champ-l
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At 12:22 PM 8/10/97 -0400, you wrote:
>I guess I should want your players, if that's what you consider the worst
>behaviour. I keep running into these idiots who think they're massively more
>clever than the rest of the group and spend their time trying to screw
>everyone over - you know the type, constantly playing the mentalist with the
>'mischevious' psych.lim.
>
*l* yeah- "look, i'm only playing in character"
like the kender wild mage. .. . tho they have their momoents too. . *g*
>>but to what extent? i'm talking again about the contribution and
>>obediance already tendered by the players- are we really giving them full
>>credit for that?
>
>It looks like you're giving it more weight than the amount of effort put in
>by a GM. A player has only to do things when the game is actually on, and
>only has to concentrate on himself. The GM's load is considerably larger -
>and it _does_ far outweigh the contributions of any single player - maybe
>even those of any two players.
>
yes, but then doesn't it make sence to encourage the players to make a contribution?
If you can trust them, that is. ..
>>no, it's not a matter of someone needing to be blamed: my point is, if the
>gm >says
>>"you can't do this", it's up to them to say "but you can do this!"
>
>Whereas I'm more of the opinion that if a GM says "You can't do this" he
>should add the phrase "because (blah-blah-blah)". While it's nice is the GM
>is an idea factory of player character concepts, it's not a job requirement.
>With the exception of completely newbie roleplayers, it's the player's job
>to come up with a character that will 'work' within the framework of the
>campaign.
>
but shouldn't the gm give them leeway- what's more important: an interesting and plausable(genre) character, or one which fits the gm's idea perfectly?
>>but was he really given much of a chance to consider such options?
>
>I'll turn this around and say "Did the character even try to consider such
>options?"
>
>Point being, that everyone in a game has a certain share of the creative
>responsibility. The GM has the lion's share, having to come up with both the
>background, the 'ground rules' and the non-player characters. A player is
>responsible for _one_ thing - his own character. Asking the GM to share this
>burden as well (which I'll point out that GMs often do anyways) is unfair
>and lazyness on the player's part.
>
but it's not a burden- the gm must simply work with the player, instead of the player
working for the gm- the wonder is in the journey, and all that *g*.
>Further, if _one_ player in a campaign isn't 'having fun' while the rest are
>satisfied, it's wrong to blame the game master. I'll admit that it's also
>often wrong to blame the character - the situation may simply be the
>combination of several unforseen factors - like an unavoidable personality
>clash between the GM and player, or player to player (some people just don't
>get along, for no particular reason). But in general, GMs can only bend so
>far to accomodate a single player. If that's not far enough, the GM has
>fulfilled his job and it's up to the player to close the gap, or leave.
>
okies, no blame allowed from here on in- 'less someone wants to blame
society? *l*
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 20:31:33 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: AoE/Invisible Mental Pow
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On 10 Aug 1997, Opal wrote:
> h > If you have an area of effect mental power, do you have to make an ECV
> h > roll to hit a target in that area?
>
> Yes, it's a sepparate attack roll for each target in the area.
Assuming, of course, that it's bought that way. Otherwise it's just one
roll to hit the area.
For most SFX of AE mental attacks, of course, it makes more sense to buy
it so that a seperate attack roll is needed for each target.
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 09:40:57 +1000
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Subject: Re: Champions Genre Selection
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At 02:34 PM 8/10/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>Not much chance of that. You must have the other players in your area pretty
>>intimidated by the difficulty of gamemastering if they are willing to put up
>>wih that sort of arrogance. The game does not exist because the benevolent
>>gm sweats blood, the game exists because players breath life into it.
>
>You misunderstand me. Players do indeed breathe life into a campaign - if I
>didn't want players I'd just write stories on my computer. That said,
>however, there are _lots_ of people who love to play in a RPG, but wouldn't
>be caught dead as the Game Master, for various reasons - time constraints,
>insecurity, personal preference, general lazyness, and even lack of creativity.
>
yes- tho many uncreative gm's exist- this is my point. .. . .
they exist, and they cause damage, by acting like arrogant twonks. . .
>And I'll point out that the game _does_ exist because there's a GM to
>breathe life into it. He's not the only one doing so, but with exceptions,
>no GM = no game (generally, those exceptions we call 'board games' or 'card
>games' or 'war games'). Which goes a ways to explaining the recent
>popularity of CCGs (aiie! We've drifted into the CCG territory!) - no GM
>required.
>
no imagionation required either- methinks more "it's the rules"-style gm;s are attracted to them than any other group. . .'cept the BBB. . . (other one) *l8
>Anyway. Given their druthers, most people would rather PC than GM - and
>that's what gives the GM the power and authority in the game. My example
>above showed that 80% of the people in the particular campaign were
>'pleased' with the choice of genre and style of play. It's nice to get 100%,
>but you'll never please all of the people all of the time - and some people
>you can't _ever_ please.
>
please, let us attempt this discussion on more general terms? i can tell you
GM-horror stories which would curl your sighn-off *lol*
>>Even if you were driven out for not being sufficently conformist to the
>>groups interpretation of reality? If no one is having any fun, then
>
>Hold it right there! This isn't a discussion about the GM forcing his genre
>down the throats of ALL available players! This is a discussion (so far) has
>been about ONE (or a small minority) having difficulties while the rest are
>happy with the situation.
>
thias is NOT! we canot stick to the absolutes- argh- didn't i already say. . oh. . .wait. . *sigh*
look, a discussion like this must become more general than that- or it's pointless.
>>ostracizing someone who tries to be a little different than expectations is
>>the solution rather than trying to restructure the game? See, it is a game
>>and should be fun for EVERYONE playing it, if the GM's only response to that
>>is "my way or the highway," then something important has been lost.
>
>No, if you've been paying attention, it's "Our way or the highway". I did
>state above that the GM is absolute master (yadda yadda) of his campaign and
>there's little anyone can do about it other than leave. But don't
>misconstrue that to mean that I, as a GM, try to force my players into a
>game where nobody is happy - nor do I advocate anyone else doing so. But I'd
>be a fool to think that I could satisfy completely _everyone_ in a
>particular campaign. If even only half of the people are happy I'd seriously
>consider overhauling a game. But one out of four, five, or six? Not unless
>they're one of my close personal friends! That's not to say, either, that I
>won't try and help the dissatisfied player to become satisfied. But I won't
>destroy the rest of the campaign to accomodate that one person.
>
"destroy"? a good gm don't work with a jackhammer and a sack full of blasting powder. ..
>>You can't have a good long term campaign without individual players. Of
>>course you can't destroy the fun of the other 75% to please 25%, but it
>>should not be necessary.
>
>This is my point. If I can satisfy 100% of the players, fantastic. But if I
>can't reasonably please that last 25% without it costing me the rest of the
>people, well, sorry, but I'm a little more political than that :-).
>
*sigh* what about individuality? 3 samurai's- why not just put a 'samurais only'
rule on the game?
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 23:44:57 +0000
Subject: Re: Champions Genre Selection
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net
Priority: normal
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On 10 Aug 97 at 21:21, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>. I can't help
> but wonder if the PC in question thought that the samurai would
> _never_ off him just because he was a PC (heh - this is samurai
> drama. PCs will off _themselves_ at the drop of a hat. "We've
> failed!" <samurai looks thoughtfully at his wakizashi...>).
I once played in a game where a character who wasn't a samurai tried
to commit seppuku, because he had cost a samurai face. We were
science fiction characters on a world run by samurai (sort of), and
he had unintentionally insulted an old and venerated man so that the
elderly samurai had to kill himself or the PC had to die. The old
man went to kill himself, but the PC decided to commit seppuku to
make up for it, save the old man, and look good to the other
samurai.
That was a fun game, with some of the best role players I've ever
known, and probably the best GM I ever met.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 20:57:18 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: 4 color principles
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sat, 9 Aug 1997, Chris Lynch wrote:
> If you want a good example of how the world might be if supers REALLY
> existed, try reading Alan Grants Watchmen, or The Psycho a limited
> series from DC.
Just to join in with the inevitable 6000 replies, that's Alan _Moore_'s
Watchmen. And Dave Gibbons', of course.
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 21:21:12 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Champions Genre Selection(looooooooooong)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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>>I guess I should want your players, if that's what you consider the worst
>>behaviour. I keep running into these idiots who think they're massively more
>>clever than the rest of the group and spend their time trying to screw
>>everyone over - you know the type, constantly playing the mentalist with the
>>'mischevious' psych.lim.
>>
> *l* yeah- "look, i'm only playing in character"
>like the kender wild mage. .. . tho they have their momoents too. . *g*
<shudder> Man, you're givin' me the _shakes_....kender wild mages <shudder,
shudder>
>>It looks like you're giving it more weight than the amount of effort put in
>>by a GM. A player has only to do things when the game is actually on, and
>>only has to concentrate on himself. The GM's load is considerably larger -
>>and it _does_ far outweigh the contributions of any single player - maybe
>>even those of any two players.
>>
>
>yes, but then doesn't it make sence to encourage the players to make a
>contribution?
Of course it does - as long as the contribution stays true to the genre!
'Challenging' the genre conventions is often an iffy prospect - while
working within the limitations of a genre can produce stunning results.
>If you can trust them, that is. ..
Oy. Ain't that the truth.
>>>no, it's not a matter of someone needing to be blamed: my point is, if the
>>gm >says
>>>"you can't do this", it's up to them to say "but you can do this!"
>>
>>Whereas I'm more of the opinion that if a GM says "You can't do this" he
>>should add the phrase "because (blah-blah-blah)".
>but shouldn't the gm give them leeway- what's more important: an
interesting >and plausable(genre) character, or one which fits the gm's idea
perfectly?
How much leeway though? And what is a plausible genre character? Who makes
the decision? Ultimately, the GM. To point back to the original incident
that started the argument, a griping peasant _is_ genre for samurai drama.
They just never do it in front of (or, more specifically, at) samurai. To
get right down to it, he needed another peasant to gripe to :-). It would
have made for great comic relief and character interaction (but the other
three wanted to play samurai...<shrug>).
>>background, the 'ground rules' and the non-player characters. A player is
>>responsible for _one_ thing - his own character. Asking the GM to share this
>>burden as well (which I'll point out that GMs often do anyways) is unfair
>>and lazyness on the player's part.
>
>but it's not a burden- the gm must simply work with the player, instead of
the >player
>working for the gm- the wonder is in the journey, and all that *g*.
Time constraints. Someone on another mailing list mentioned that GMs spend
on the order of 2-4 hours of preparation per hour of actual gaming (4 I find
hard to believe, but 2 isn't implausible at all - especially given systems
like Champions where character generation can take a while. Throw in maps,
events, plots, sub-plots, etc., etc....). That's a lot of time and effort
without having more work on the GM's shoulders. Never mind actually getting
together with the PC - not everyone has e-mail, and you may only see them at
the sessions themselves - when you want to be playing the game, not
resolving issues.
Mind you, Champs may actually be a 'lighter' work load - given that combat
can take so darn long :-).
>okies, no blame allowed from here on in- 'less someone wants to blame
>society? *l*
"Society! I blame society for all my problems! Society's to blame!"
"Bullshit. You're just a white urban punk like me."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"HEY! Give my nuclear warhead RIGHT BACK!!"
-Gold Digger #35
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 21:21:18 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Champions Genre Selection
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>>This is my point. If I can satisfy 100% of the players, fantastic. But if I
>>can't reasonably please that last 25% without it costing me the rest of the
>>people, well, sorry, but I'm a little more political than that :-).
>*sigh* what about individuality? 3 samurai's- why not just put a 'samurais
>only' rule on the game?
Because it isn't necessary. A peasant character _could_ have very well
worked in the game - provided that the player is aware of the restrictions,
limitations and dangers a peasant faces in ancient Japanese society - and
the consequences of his actions. I can't help but wonder if the PC in
question thought that the samurai would _never_ off him just because he was
a PC (heh - this is samurai drama. PCs will off _themselves_ at the drop of
a hat. "We've failed!" <samurai looks thoughtfully at his wakizashi...>).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"HEY! Give my nuclear warhead RIGHT BACK!!"
-Gold Digger #35
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 11:53:05 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
Subject: Re: Champions Genre Selection
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At 09:21 PM 8/10/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>>This is my point. If I can satisfy 100% of the players, fantastic. But if I
>>>can't reasonably please that last 25% without it costing me the rest of the
>>>people, well, sorry, but I'm a little more political than that :-).
>
>>*sigh* what about individuality? 3 samurai's- why not just put a 'samurais
>>only' rule on the game?
>
>Because it isn't necessary. A peasant character _could_ have very well
>worked in the game - provided that the player is aware of the restrictions,
>limitations and dangers a peasant faces in ancient Japanese society - and
>the consequences of his actions. I can't help but wonder if the PC in
>question thought that the samurai would _never_ off him just because he was
>a PC (heh - this is samurai drama. PCs will off _themselves_ at the drop of
>a hat. "We've failed!" <samurai looks thoughtfully at his wakizashi...>).
>
funny, i get the feeling noone ever died but farmboy. .
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"HEY! Give my nuclear warhead RIGHT BACK!!"
>-Gold Digger #35
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>John D. Prins
>jprins@interhop.net
>
>
>
>
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 12:03:57 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
Subject: Re: Champions Genre Selection(looooooooooong)
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At 09:21 PM 8/10/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>>I guess I should want your players, if that's what you consider the worst
>>>behaviour. I keep running into these idiots who think they're massively more
>>>clever than the rest of the group and spend their time trying to screw
>>>everyone over - you know the type, constantly playing the mentalist with the
>>>'mischevious' psych.lim.
>>>
>> *l* yeah- "look, i'm only playing in character"
>>like the kender wild mage. .. . tho they have their momoents too. . *g*
>
><shudder> Man, you're givin' me the _shakes_....kender wild mages <shudder,
>shudder>
>
>>>It looks like you're giving it more weight than the amount of effort put in
>>>by a GM. A player has only to do things when the game is actually on, and
>>>only has to concentrate on himself. The GM's load is considerably larger -
>>>and it _does_ far outweigh the contributions of any single player - maybe
>>>even those of any two players.
>>>
>>
>>yes, but then doesn't it make sence to encourage the players to make a
>>contribution?
>
>Of course it does - as long as the contribution stays true to the genre!
>'Challenging' the genre conventions is often an iffy prospect - while
>working within the limitations of a genre can produce stunning results.
>
Challenging a genre is higher-risk, but the results are far more stunning...
>>>Whereas I'm more of the opinion that if a GM says "You can't do this" he
>>>should add the phrase "because (blah-blah-blah)".
>
>>but shouldn't the gm give them leeway- what's more important: an
>interesting >and plausable(genre) character, or one which fits the gm's idea
>perfectly?
>
>How much leeway though? And what is a plausible genre character? Who makes
>the decision? Ultimately, the GM. To point back to the original incident
>that started the argument, a griping peasant _is_ genre for samurai drama.
>They just never do it in front of (or, more specifically, at) samurai. To
>get right down to it, he needed another peasant to gripe to :-). It would
>have made for great comic relief and character interaction (but the other
>three wanted to play samurai...<shrug>).
>
see what i mean? we're not talking about a really open-and-shut case. . .
>>but it's not a burden- the gm must simply work with the player, instead of
>the >player
>>working for the gm- the wonder is in the journey, and all that *g*.
>
>Time constraints. Someone on another mailing list mentioned that GMs spend
>on the order of 2-4 hours of preparation per hour of actual gaming (4 I find
>hard to believe, but 2 isn't implausible at all - especially given systems
>like Champions where character generation can take a while. Throw in maps,
>events, plots, sub-plots, etc., etc....). That's a lot of time and effort
>without having more work on the GM's shoulders. Never mind actually getting
>together with the PC - not everyone has e-mail, and you may only see them at
>the sessions themselves - when you want to be playing the game, not
>resolving issues.
>
you need a map of the pc? all those things are really static- i'm talking about
modeling the scenario more on the pc's- do what they want to do,
as usual, only moreso- or at least let them try *eg*
>Mind you, Champs may actually be a 'lighter' work load - given that combat
>can take so darn long :-).
>
>>okies, no blame allowed from here on in- 'less someone wants to blame
>>society? *l*
>
>"Society! I blame society for all my problems! Society's to blame!"
>"Bullshit. You're just a white urban punk like me."
>
Oddly enough, i have a quote which fits that quite well
"you lockin' to blame all your problems on society?"
"no, i'm lookin fer - BANG - this" *lol*
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"HEY! Give my nuclear warhead RIGHT BACK!!"
>-Gold Digger #35
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>John D. Prins
>jprins@interhop.net
>
>
>
>
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 22:31:49 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Champions Genre Selection
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>>the consequences of his actions. I can't help but wonder if the PC in
>>question thought that the samurai would _never_ off him just because he was
>>a PC (heh - this is samurai drama. PCs will off _themselves_ at the drop of
>>a hat. "We've failed!" <samurai looks thoughtfully at his wakizashi...>).
>
>funny, i get the feeling noone ever died but farmboy. .
Even 'farmboy' apparantly survived a lot of wounds - one of his complaints
was that he was forever being wounded - despite constantly refusing to wear
the armor provided him! As for the other samurai not dying...maybe they
never had a major failure or bout of dishonor?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"HEY! Give my nuclear warhead RIGHT BACK!!"
-Gold Digger #35
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 21:15:04 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: AoE/Invisible Mental Pow
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Trevor Barrie wrote:
>
> On 10 Aug 1997, Opal wrote:
>
> > h > If you have an area of effect mental power, do you have to make an ECV
> > h > roll to hit a target in that area?
> >
> > Yes, it's a sepparate attack roll for each target in the area.
>
> Assuming, of course, that it's bought that way. Otherwise it's just one
> roll to hit the area.
>
"Hit the area?!?" What on earth do you propose as the DECV of a hex?
Only minds can be targeted with a Mental attack. While one can require
that a particular attack hit physically as well as mentally (e.g. Mind
Control, requires touch), I don't see how one can substitute a physical
to-hit roll for a mental one, and I have no idea what it means to "hit
the area" with a mental combat roll.
Not to mention my extremely strong feeling that this would be
unbalancing.
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 04:52:23 -0500
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren)
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Embodiments
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At 04:16 PM 8/6/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> Good point. It's a little like trying to determine point totals for
>Jehovah (hoping this doesn't become the spark for yet another religious
>flame war).
Which is not to say some don't try. IIRC, Neil Gaiman supposedly got rather
ticked off at the boys at Mayfair when they printed game stats for Sandman
and the other Endless -- he felt it was a pointless endeavor, since as
concieved they were beings of basically infinite (though focussed) power,
and putting numbers to them gave an incorrect impression of their nature
(something along the lines of the old-style munchkin AD&D campaigns where
Odin gets killed by a =push= spell).
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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From: j.ward18@genie.com
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 97 13:55:00 GMT
X-genie-QK-From: J.WARD18
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Subject: The Samurai/Peasant Rorshack
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Yesterday's Zippy reminded me of this conversation. Griffy (an alternate
persona for the cartoonist) wanders around asking the main characters about
their views on X, and they all reply "Impressions based on random data."
I'm interested in the fact that we all seem to be responding based on
personal experience, since none of us know the principals.
There's a strong group that sees the problem as being the peasant player's
trouble. He is a problem player, he wants too much, didn't read the
roadsigns. I suspect these people 1) don't play as players, 2) Have had
communicative GMs, and/or 3) have had major problem players when they GM.
There's another group (where I started) that wonder if the peasant player is
the victim of miscommunication. Did he know what he was getting into? Was
the excuse of "a samurai could whack your head RIGHT OFF!" used to have
samurai act unreasonably toward him. (i.e. more lordly and jerklike than
any samurai would in real life, just out of self-preservation) I suspect
these people 1) don't GM, 2) have had decent players, and/or 3) have had
major GM troubles.
I could tell YOU stories, you could tell me stories. Wanna call it a wash
(WE have no way of knowing what the reality was) and swap bad gaming stories?
From: Dazzle489@aol.com
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:30:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Multipowers
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Hi,
Sorry if this is a crap question but I need a little help.
I'm fairly new to champions and I've created a character with a multipower.
Not unusual I know but I'm getting three different supposed rules lawyers
telling me three different versions of how to use it.
Please,please,please could someone settle this for me/us??
the versions are:-
1. Multipower slots can be used all at one but they slots must cost a maximum
of one quarter of the multipower points.
2. Multipower slots can cost the full amount of points the multipower has but
can only be used one at a time (i.e. one per phase).
3. Multipower slots can cost up to as many points as the multipower has but
when used no more than the total cost of the multipower can be used in any
one phase using a combination of points from both fixed and variable slots.
No 3 sounds the most plausible but I thought I'd settle this arbitrarily.
HELP!!!.
Dazzle489 (Daz)
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:58:58 -0400
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org>
Subject: Multipowers
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> 1. Multipower slots can be used all at one but they slots must cost a maximum
> of one quarter of the multipower points.
Nope, don't know where this came from...
> 2. Multipower slots can cost the full amount of points the multipower has but
> can only be used one at a time (i.e. one per phase).
Nope...
> 3. Multipower slots can cost up to as many points as the multipower has but
> when used no more than the total cost of the multipower can be used in any
> one phase using a combination of points from both fixed and variable slots.
>
> No 3 sounds the most plausible but I thought I'd settle this arbitrarily.
Number 3 sounds right, but I want to make sure I've got it, so I'll reword:
The Multipower Reserve limits the number of Active Points you can have in use
at once from the Multipower. These points can come from any number of
slots. Fixed slots count as their maximum number of active points, regardless
of how much of the fixed slot you are using.
Example:
60 Point Multipower, OAF
Multi slot: 12d6 Energy Blast
Multi slot: 30" Flight, Act. 14-
Fixed slot: 10PD Force Field, 0 END (15 active)
Character uses 5PD of the force field (counts as 15 against the MP reserve,
since it's a fixed slot), 10" of Flight (counts as 20), and 5d6 EB (counts as
15). That precisely maxes out the slot.
If the character uses 12d6 EB, that maxes out the slot. Same if the character
uses 30" Flight.
Geoff Speare
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 12:15:11 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Multipowers
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Dazzle489@aol.com wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Sorry if this is a crap question but I need a little help.
>
> I'm fairly new to champions and I've created a character with a multipower.
> Not unusual I know but I'm getting three different supposed rules lawyers
> telling me three different versions of how to use it.
> Please,please,please could someone settle this for me/us??
Okay, let me get a little ostentatious, here. There's a story of
three blind men who each are trying to gain impressions of an elephant.
One feels the elephant's leg and says "it's like a tree!". Another
feels its body; "it's like a great rock!". The third feels its ear;
"it's like a tent!" They're all right. Here we go...
> 1. Multipower slots can be used all at one but they slots must cost a maximum
> of one quarter of the multipower points.
If there are four slots in the Multipower, then all can be used at
once if each is only 1/4 the size of the MP pool. This makes the total
active points in the powers equal to the total active points in the
pool.
> 2. Multipower slots can cost the full amount of points the multipower has but
> can only be used one at a time (i.e. one per phase).
If the active points in each slot is equal to the active points in
the MP pool, then only one power (at full power) can be used at a time.
> 3. Multipower slots can cost up to as many points as the multipower has but
> when used no more than the total cost of the multipower can be used in any
> one phase using a combination of points from both fixed and variable slots.
This is actually a combination of the first two, and is also right.
The Multipower's Main Pool of Points (active) is the maximum of active
points that can be used simultaneously (per phase). An "ultra" slot -
which costs 1/10 of the active points in the power - must allot all
points from the pool that the full strength of the power requires, even
if it is used at a lower level;
50 - MP pool (50 active points)
5 - 10D6 EB (ultra slot)
4 - 4D6 Entangle (ultra slot)
10 - 5D6 EGO Blast (multi slot)
1 - 1D6 NND (ultra slot)
In this example, using the 10D6 EB uses all the points in the pool.
Even if you only use 5D6 of the EB, the slot requires all 50 points to
be allotted for its use. If the EGO blast is used at only 3D6, it only
requires 30 points to be allotted to the slot, since it is a multi-slot
(costing 1/5 of the active points of the power). The Entangle and the
NND could be used in the same phase, since the total points are equal to
the pool total, as could the Entangle with 1D6 of the EGO Blast, but the
EB must ALWAYS use the entire pool, regardless of the actual damage
level used.
Obviously, this example MP is probably not a viable concept, but was
used simply for the purpose of explaining the concepts of how a MP
works. I hope this has been helpful.
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Multipowers
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Date: 11 Aug 1997 15:38:59 -0400
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "GS" == Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org> writes:
GS> The Multipower Reserve limits the number of Active Points you can have
GS> in use at once from the Multipower. These points can come from any
GS> number of slots.
I would like to reword that a bit, myself, because the points do not come
from the slots, but go to them:
The Multipower Reserve limits the total Active Points (AP) you may
distribute among the various slots of the Multipower. If you have a 60
point Multipower Reserve then you may allocate a maximum of 60 AP among
your slots: this could be one 60 AP power, two 30 AP powers, one 15 AP
power and one 45 AP power, six 10 AP powers, or any other combination
allowed by the slots.
Ultra slots always require exactly their AP cost allocated from the
reserve, or none at all. If you have a 60 AP ultra slot you must allocate
60 points from the Multipower Reserve to use the powers in that slot.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:06:13 -0600 (MDT)
From: "Daniel R. Hust" <dhust@nmt.edu>
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Subject: Re: Re[2]: Embodiments
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> > Good point. It's a little like trying to determine point totals for
> >Jehovah (hoping this doesn't become the spark for yet another religious
> >flame war).
We often write out our "infinite" power characters on sheets anyway.
Mainly this is for the purposes of showing any limitations that may be
inherent in the characters, and so these GM characters don't just tear you
to shreds. For example, we have the (I'm sure highly over-used) Four
Horsemen characters. Each one has a character sheet with some of the more
major powers outlined in game terms. Each of these characters is probably
well over 1000 points, but our characters are slowly getting to the point
where they have this range of powers to. Whenever we write up characters
such as this, the GM always gives them the made up power "constant GM
intervention", to prevent the players from just waltzing in and taking out
a not-recently-updated Death. This probably seems a little silly to write
out "constant GM intervention" on the paper, but it prevents any potential
munchkin players from running around taking out the four horsemen. The GM
could also let you 'win' against Death, I suppose...
Dan.
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 08:24:44 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
Subject: Re: The Samurai/Peasant Rorshack
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At 01:55 PM 8/11/97 +0000, you wrote:>
>There's another group (where I started) that wonder if the peasant player is
>the victim of miscommunication. Did he know what he was getting into? Was
>the excuse of "a samurai could whack your head RIGHT OFF!" used to have
>samurai act unreasonably toward him. (i.e. more lordly and jerklike than
>any samurai would in real life, just out of self-preservation) I suspect
>these people 1) don't GM, 2) have had decent players, and/or 3) have had
>major GM troubles.
>
weeel, i'm option 2 i suppose, tho i do have stories. .
>I could tell YOU stories, you could tell me stories. Wanna call it a wash
>(WE have no way of knowing what the reality was) and swap bad gaming stories?
>
>
yeah!! i second this motion! :
okay, worst hero pc i ever saw was made by a guy who wanted to play the ultimate dumb blond. . .sooo, he bought lots of com and a bunch of luck dice. .Then, he bought
a vpp to represent being "really really lucky". Then, he wondered why i didn't want the character to be in the game. . *l*
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 08:28:51 +1000
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Subject: Re: Re[2]: Embodiments
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At 04:52 AM 8/11/97 -0500, you wrote:
>At 04:16 PM 8/6/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>> Good point. It's a little like trying to determine point totals for
>>Jehovah (hoping this doesn't become the spark for yet another religious
>>flame war).
>
>Which is not to say some don't try. IIRC, Neil Gaiman supposedly got rather
>ticked off at the boys at Mayfair when they printed game stats for Sandman
>and the other Endless -- he felt it was a pointless endeavor, since as
>concieved they were beings of basically infinite (though focussed) power,
>and putting numbers to them gave an incorrect impression of their nature
>(something along the lines of the old-style munchkin AD&D campaigns where
>Odin gets killed by a =push= spell).
>
i'd argue against 'infinite' guys- i'm much more interested in gods, ect
being just really tough, meaning they can be beaten- once ever eon or so. ..
Infinite power is a bore in a rpg, and would it have made any difference
if sandy was "infinite" or just "thought to be infinite"? i'd say the
second is more interesting- same goes for all those embodyment dudes in
my campaigns-
they all have feet of clay. . .they just have REALLY BIG FEET!!
>
X-Sender: champion@mailhost.cyberhighway.net
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 15:33:22 -0700
From: Jim Dickinson <champion@cyberhighway.net>
Subject: Re: Multipowers
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At 12:15 PM 8/11/97 -0700, Captain Spith wrote:
>
> 50 - MP pool (50 active points)
> 5 - 10D6 EB (ultra slot)
> 4 - 4D6 Entangle (ultra slot)
> 10 - 5D6 EGO Blast (multi slot)
> 1 - 1D6 NND (ultra slot)
>
>In this example, using the 10D6 EB uses all the points in the pool.
>Even if you only use 5D6 of the EB, the slot requires all 50 points to
>be allotted for its use. If the EGO blast is used at only 3D6, it only
>requires 30 points to be allotted to the slot, since it is a multi-slot
>(costing 1/5 of the active points of the power). The Entangle and the
>NND could be used in the same phase, since the total points are equal to
>the pool total, as could the Entangle with 1D6 of the EGO Blast, but the
>EB must ALWAYS use the entire pool, regardless of the actual damage
>level used.
Oh, SH!T...I guess I'd better unsubscribe now...as this comment is so very likely to kick off another 3 months of "THE GREAT LINKED DEBATE!"
AAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
_________________________________________________________________
Jim Dickinson -=- Portland. OR USA -=- champion@cyberhighway.net
Castle Game Knight: http://www.cyberhighway.net/~jd/cgk
Join the Circle of HEROs: http://www.cyberhighway.net/~jd/coh
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From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 08:37:32 +1000
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Subject: Re: Re[2]: Embodiments
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At 02:06 PM 8/11/97 -0600, you wrote:
> This probably seems a little silly to write
>out "constant GM intervention" on the paper, but it prevents any potential
>munchkin players from running around taking out the four horsemen. The GM
>could also let you 'win' against Death, I suppose...
why "let"?? i'd give him huge stats, and let the dice sort it out! note i've
never actually seen the four horsemen done as infinite- usually comic company's
portray them as mid-power, at best in my experence. ..
>
>Dan.
>
>
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Dazzle489@aol.com\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 97 23:09:36
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Multipowers
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On Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:30:13 -0400 (EDT), Dazzle489@aol.com wrote:
>Hi,
>
>Sorry if this is a crap question but I need a little help.
>
>I'm fairly new to champions and I've created a character with a multipower.
>Not unusual I know but I'm getting three different supposed rules lawyers
>telling me three different versions of how to use it.
>Please,please,please could someone settle this for me/us??
>
>the versions are:-
>
>1. Multipower slots can be used all at one but they slots must cost a maximum
>of one quarter of the multipower points.
No.
>2. Multipower slots can cost the full amount of points the multipower has but
>can only be used one at a time (i.e. one per phase).
Yes, if they are Ultra (fixed) slots.
>3. Multipower slots can cost up to as many points as the multipower has but
>when used no more than the total cost of the multipower can be used in any
>one phase using a combination of points from both fixed and variable slots.
>
>No 3 sounds the most plausible but I thought I'd settle this arbitrarily.
And is the correct one.
Perchance an example is in order.
Let us assume Megaman has a 100 Active Point Multipower
Slot A is a 100 pt Ultra
Slot B is a 50 pt Ultra
Slot C is a 50 pt Ultra
Slot D is a 100 pt normal power
Slot E is a 50 pt normal power
Slot F is a 50 pt normal power
So, Megaman can use Slot A, and nothing else, or Slot D and nothing
else; or Slots B and C together; or Slots B and E; or B and half of D;
or half each of D, E, and F; or C, a quarter of D, and half of F. As
you can see it gets quite complex.
qts
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 11 Aug 97 23:28:10 GMT
Subject: Multipowers
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h> the versions are:-
h> 1. Multipower slots can be used all at one but they
h> slots must cost a maximum
h> of one quarter of the multipower points.
h> 2. Multipower slots can cost the full amount of
h> points the multipower has but
h> can only be used one at a time (i.e. one per phase).
h> 3. Multipower slots can cost up to as many points as
h> the multipower has but
h> when used no more than the total cost of the
h> multipower can be used in any
h> one phase using a combination of points from both
h> fixed and variable slots.
h> No 3 sounds the most plausible but I thought I'd
h> settle this arbitrarily.
h> HELP!!!.
h> Dazzle489 (Daz)
3. Is the correct answere. 1. is probably a missunderstanding - the
rules lawyer in question whas probably giving you an example with 4 slots
going at once, there's nothing magical about one-quarter the points.
2. is an over-simplification, that is the case with the very popular
attack multipower (all ultras, all using full points in the pool).
Just to clarify, there are multi- or variable slots, and ultra-
or 'fixed' slots. Multis cost 1/5th the points of the power,
ultras cost 1/10th. With an ultra, the full Apts of the slot,
at max power, are distributed from the reserve whenever the ultra
is used, even if it's used at less than full power. So, if you
have a 10d EB 'ultra' slot in a 60 pt Multipower, and you only
use 8d of EB, you still have used up 50 of the 60 pts in the
Multipower reserve.
From: DocTough@aol.com
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 19:30:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Multipowers
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In a message dated 97-08-11 17:31:13 EDT, Daz writes:
<<Hi,
Sorry if this is a crap question but I need a little help.>>
Go ahead, that's what this list is for...
<< I'm fairly new to champions and ...>>
Welcome to the system. We certainly can use all the new players we can
get
<<...I've created a character with a multipower. Not unusual I know but I'm
getting three different supposed rules lawyers telling me three different
versions of how to use it. Please,please,please could someone settle this for
me/us??
the versions are:-
1. Multipower slots can be used all at one but they slots must cost a
maximum
of one quarter of the multipower points.>>
Nope, this one isn't right...
<< 2. Multipower slots can cost the full amount of points the multipower has
but
can only be used one at a time (i.e. one per phase).>>
Closer, but still not right...
<<3. Multipower slots can cost up to as many points as the multipower has
but
when used no more than the total cost of the multipower can be used in any
one phase using a combination of points from both fixed and variable
slots.>>
This one is also rather close, but...
<< No 3 sounds the most plausible but I thought I'd settle this arbitrarily.
HELP!!!.
Dazzle489 (Daz)>>
Multipowers are nice little ways to package a group of powers that
usually have a common theme or SpFx. Strictly speaking they do not have to
be related, but GMs that do not try to keep the powers of the MP closely
related are just asking for trouble. MPs consist of the MP Cost (or Pool)
and the MP slots (Ultras or Multis).
The first step is to determine the how many Active Points are going to
be available to the MP Pool. This Pool is important since it will set the
limit of how many Active Points the slot may "draw" off in order to power the
Slot. Remember that Active Points are the Base Points of a power increased
by the Power Advantages applied to a power. If you set the MP Pool to have
an available Active Points of 60 then no MP Slot may use more than 60 APs in
their construction.
The APs in the MP Pool may also have Power advantages and Power
Limitations place on them. So a 40 point Pool with Reduced END Cost (a +1/4
Advantage) would have an Active Cost of 50 APs so each slot can use up to 50
APs, but the slots must take the Reduced END Cost (or any other Adv placed on
the MP Pool) Advantage.
The same holds for Power Lims, but they only lower the cost of the Pool
(and Slots) and do not affect the available APs that may be used in the
Slots.
Next come the Slots. Slots are built just like any other power, but are
limited in the total Active Point Cost by the MP Pool. They must take any
Advs and Lims placed on the MP Pool, but may select additonal ones to make
the power work properly. Slots need not use all the available APs in MP
Pool, but they may be built on more either.
There are two typees of MP Slots. Ultra Slots must draw from the MP
Pool the total APs they are built on even if you do not use the power at full
effect. Multi Slots may draw as many APs from the MP Pool as is needed to
power the Slot at the level of effect desired. This is useful when you have
the desire to use two powers in the MP at the same. You get some effect of
both, but neither can be used to their full effect at the same time.
BTW, remember when determining the cost of the Slot that the Advs on the
MP Pool increase the Active Cost of the Slot, while the Lims on the MP Pool
will reduce the cost of the Slot later (see below).
Cost of MPs:
The final, or Real, Cost of the MP Pool is (Base Points times
Advantages)/(Lims).
The Real Cost of an Ultra Slot is APs/10. After this you apply effects
of any Lims. Ultra usually do not cost much, but you usually only get to
Ultra Slots one at a time unless the MP Pool is large.
The Real Cost os a Multi Slot is its APs/5. The you apply the cost
reduction effects of any Lims. Multi Slots cost more , but you have more
flexiblity with them.
Hope that helps.
Doc Tough
From: j.ward18@genie.com
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 01:04:00 GMT
X-genie-QK-From: J.WARD18
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Subject: Re: Champions Genre Selection
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A buncha little things here :
WARNING - This response is based on a gut feeling, which means random data,
i.e. my own previous experience playing with d*ckweeds who thought royalty
was a reason to push others around. The Samurai were "playing in
character" lording the peasant around but then they failed to stop other
samurai from doing something because they knew they would get their clocks
cleaned. Since they a) cheesily let the villains go and b) didn't give
seppuku a thought, I'd guess they were playing only the FUN bits of being in
character. I mean why play the drag of honorable behavior and ritual
suicide for failing when you can order the peasant around some more?
Mentalist with "mischevious." Allowed that once. To the wife of a guy who
was playing, at the his request and that of two of the other three PCs. (At
our character-making discussion, I said that I would think about it, but
that I was dubious about it being abused. The others chimed in that they
wouldn't mind. The other lady player remained tactfully silent.) The one
she victimized was one of the supportive players, the one she ended up
leaving her husband for later. Strange group.
Speaking of which, do you guys pick and choose who you GM for? I have, on
occasion, "left someone out" who I thought didn't fit. Instead of playing
and then eating on game night, the "left out" ones were always invited for
the communal food AFTER the game. I know I alienated the "left out" ones
sometimes, but between the concerns of group size and the fact that we
played together in other games, it worked out okay. With this method, I
have had clueless players, but my only player horror stories are from games
that I ran a) at the spur of the moment for people I hardly knew, or b) for
games where friends just "showed up" and wanted to play. GM or fellow-
player horror stories, now, them I have in scads.
Area-effect Ego powers - The easy way to manage the "hit the hex" problem is
for the GM to use his/her spine to make you BUY it so you have to roll to
hit everyone in the hex. After all, a hex HAS no ECV. Personally, I'd be
looking at this power with my magnifying glass. While there are many
interesting things you can do with it, it also makes me thing of weanie
minimaxers I have known. Kinda like your 1d6 Flash, based on ECV, area
effect. Yeah, it's USEFUL (since neither flash defense nor mental defense
would technically work on it), but does the player have a decent idea of
what this power is? I had a teammate once that bought that for all of his
characters that the GM would let him. When I GM'ed, I told him that in my
opinion, that power would work fantastically on mentalists, since it would
"blind" their mental power sense, but would be useless on Hammerhand the
brick, since he doesn't HAVE an ego sense. Like flashing a strobe at
Daredevil, there is null effect. He's _already_ mindblind.
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 20:30:22 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Multipowers
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Dazzle489@aol.com wrote:
>
> Please,please,please could someone settle this for me/us??
>
> the versions are:-
>
>
> 3. Multipower slots can cost up to as many points as the multipower has but
> when used no more than the total cost of the multipower can be used in any
> one phase using a combination of points from both fixed and variable slots.
>
OK, analogy time:
Think of the Starship Enterprise. The engines provide up to a certain amount of
power, which the Captain can allocate among the ship's systems. You can't put
all the power into phasers, because you'll just burn out the phaser emitters.
You can't allocate more total power than the output of the engines. Some
systems, such as shields and phasers, can run at half-power, but the transporters
can't, or you get scrambled Bones.
The engines are the Multipower Reserve, the systems that can run on full or
partial power are the standard slots, and the ones that need a certain amount of
power and can't take less or use more are fixed (ultra) slots.
I find it easiest to think of these things by distinguishing clearly among the
kinds of points that Hero uses.
Base Points: the cost of the power with no advantages nor limitations.
Minimum buy rules apply to base points.
Active Points: the cost of the power with advantages, but no limitations.
If there are no advantages, Active Points = Base Points.
If the power costs normal END, END cost/phase = Active Points/10.
Real Points: the cost of the power with advantages and limitations.
If there are no limitations, Real Points = Active Points.
Actual Cost: is the same as Real Points, except in the case of Multipower slots:
Standard (Variable) Slots are 1/5 the Real Points.
Fixed (Ultra) Slots are 1/10 the Real Points.
A Multipower comprises two things:
1) The Reserve, which is a collection of ACTIVE POINTS.
2) The Slots, some of which may be fixed and some of which may be variable.
General Rule:
Slots may be active at full or partial power provided that all four of the
following conditions are met.
a) The total active points of powers in use during any phase must not exceed the
total active points of the reserve.
b) No slot may run more than the active points bought for the slot.
c) For variable slots, count only the points actually in use; for fixed slots,
count the total points in the slot, even if only a portion are being used.
d) Any slot that is used must have at least a minimum buy of the base power in
use, unless the GM gives permission.
As a general rule, the distribution of active points among the slots in the
multipower must be determined at the beginning of the character's phase, before
nany of the slots are used. This distribution lasts until the beginning of the
character's next phase. The only exception I can think of is when switching
slots requires an action, such as
20 Multipower Reserve [45 Active] OAF Pistol(-1) phase to switch(-1/4)
Note: all slots are 4 clips of 7 shots each(-0) all are 45 active pts.
2u 2D6 RKA +1 STUN multiplier - standard bullets
2u 3D6 RKA - semi-hardened bullets
2u 2D6 Armor Piercing - "teflon" bullets
2u 9D6 EB Reduced Penetration - "rubber" bullets
Obviously, the gun can have only one type of clip in at a time. Changing the
configuration requires changing clips, which is a full-phase action.
Technically, no slot can be larger than the reserve, since if it were, the excess
would never be usable; however, one can have a "boost" outside the Multipower to
add onto a slot in the multipower (see HSR p. 115).
Note that the Real Point costs never enter into consideration. The Multipower
Reserve is distributed entirely based on Active Point cost.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 21:08:23 -1000 (HST)
From: Til Eulenspiegel <til_e@aloha.net>
Subject: Embodiments, kind of
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Hi, all!
IMHOFlag=1
Embodiments of limitless creatures come in two types: the plot
device, and the opponent. In the first case, they exist to move the story
forward. E.g., God appears to a group of knights and commands them to seek
the Grail, or Satan accepts a witch's pledge of loyalty and commands them
to bear a child to further the Devil's work. In the second case, they exist
to provide conflict. If an omnipotent antagonist is necessary to the story,
it is usually wasteful to quantify him. One significant exception is the
existence of an Achilles' Heel in the adversary. (Smaug's missing scale,
the Borg's subspace links, Skynet's time travel capability, etc.) It is
important to fairly portray the opponent so the vulnerability is credible.
Ultimately, the HERO System is designed around quantifiable properties.
Infinite characters are basically unsuitable for such a system. If your
stories demand participants of that nature, then think about using other
rules, like Theatrix or FUDGE.
Til Eulenspiegel
til_e@aloha.net
+---------------------------------------+
PGP Public key available by arrangement
+---------------------------------------+
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Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 11:11:02 +0100
From: Michael Cugley <michael.cugley@virgin.net>
Reply-To: michael.cugley@virgin.net
Organization: Wombles for World Peace
Subject: Building Heroic-scale Weapons
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I'm involved in converting an AD&D background (Dark Sun) to Hero, and
I've got a list of weapon stats to convert. Most of the stats are
fairly easy; about the only one I'm not sure of is OCV bonus. What
sorts of weapons should get an OCV bonus or penalty? Looking at the
weapons chart isn't much help; I can't, off the top of my head see why
falchions and daggers gets a +1 while scimitars and dirks don't. Any
thoughts? The weapons are all fairly exotic, so it's not just a case of
using the Hero versions...
Also, does anyone have the address for the Fantasy Hero list? The one I
got bounced...
--
Mike Cugley mailto://michael.cugley@virgin.net
Home Page: http://freespace.virgin.net/michael.cugley/
Art Pages: http://freespace.virgin.net/michael.cugley/Art/
Athas Pages: http://freespace.virgin.net/michael.cugley/Athas/
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 20:36:51 +1000
From: Steve Clark <nahema@mailbox.uq.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Champions Genre Selection
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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j.ward18@genie.com wrote:
>
> A buncha little things here :
>
> minimaxers I have known. Kinda like your 1d6 Flash, based on ECV, area
> effect. Yeah, it's USEFUL (since neither flash defense nor mental defense
> would technically work on it)
Well, one Defence has to work on it, either the original defence (in
this case,
flash defence) or Mental defence... see the BOECV advantage. Whether or
not it
works on non mentalists depends on the sense or sense group affected. I
had a
player with a 1d6 sight group flash, based on ECV. The special effect
was using
telepathy to turn off his sight...
Steven
X-Sender: nolan@pop.erols.com
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 06:37:41 -0400
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: Building Heroic-scale Weapons
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At 11:11 AM 8/12/97 +0100, Michael Cugley wrote:
>I'm involved in converting an AD&D background (Dark Sun) to Hero, and
>I've got a list of weapon stats to convert. Most of the stats are
>fairly easy; about the only one I'm not sure of is OCV bonus. What
>sorts of weapons should get an OCV bonus or penalty? Looking at the
>weapons chart isn't much help; I can't, off the top of my head see why
>falchions and daggers gets a +1 while scimitars and dirks don't. Any
>thoughts? The weapons are all fairly exotic, so it's not just a case of
>using the Hero versions...
Daggers get the OCV bonus because they are far easier to guide than swords.
Being small, they are practically an extension of the hand. You're going
to get far more cut up in a knife-fight than in a sword fight...until the
end. As for the falchion, I'm not really sure. Perhaps because it is such
a heavy weapon that it is difficult to block?
Scott
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 12:24:59 GMT
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Steve McGinness)
Subject: Re: Building Heroic-scale Weapons
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At 11:11 AM 12/8/97 +0100, michael.cugley@net.virgin wrote:
>I'm involved in converting an AD&D background (Dark Sun) to Hero, and
>I've got a list of weapon stats to convert. Most of the stats are
>fairly easy; about the only one I'm not sure of is OCV bonus. What
>sorts of weapons should get an OCV bonus or penalty? Looking at the
>weapons chart isn't much help; I can't, off the top of my head see why
>falchions and daggers gets a +1 while scimitars and dirks don't. Any
>thoughts? The weapons are all fairly exotic, so it's not just a case of
>using the Hero versions...
Hi Mike,
I was never too happy when I went to the Fantasy Hero for weapons, there was
no real distinction between the various weapons. I like a bit of variety
with weapons which then encourages players to have their own individual
styles and stuff. I have tended to produce my own weapons etc as they were
required and tailored them very much like martial arts packages.
Unfortunately when I was doing this it was all pen and paper stuff and I
don't have any electronic copies to send out. As I haven't played Fantasy
Hero in years neither do I have the paper stuff to hand.
Think about designing a weapon like a martial arts package though, the long
sword might have the ability to do martial attack and a block etc whilst a
sai may have disarm, and defensive strike etc. You might also give pluses
against certain other weapons and defences and minuses versus others. This
way weapons are more expensive but they are far more individualised and
useful. Obviously you can buy weapons in the normal way with the basic "does
1D6+1K" etc.
Stephen McGinness
From: BeerCarboy@aol.com
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 09:48:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Multipowers
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This is not meant to answer the question but to supply one of my own.
Several people in answering the original question have written something
like: ultra slots always draw their full number of points from the pool even
when they are not used at full strength. Now, of course ultra slots always
draw their full number of points from the pool, but we have always played
that you CANNOT use an ultra-slot at less than full strength as well. Are we
wrong according to the book, or is it just a common house rule that ultra
slots can be used at less than full power but still consume their full
complement of points from the pool?
Carter Humphrey
BeerCarboy@AOL.com
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 10:02:41 -0400
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org>
Subject: Multipowers
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> Several people in answering the original question have written something
> like: ultra slots always draw their full number of points from the pool even
> when they are not used at full strength. Now, of course ultra slots always
> draw their full number of points from the pool, but we have always played
> that you CANNOT use an ultra-slot at less than full strength as well. Are we
> wrong according to the book, or is it just a common house rule that ultra
> slots can be used at less than full power but still consume their full
> complement of points from the pool?
The official rule is that you can use an ultra slot at less than full power,
but it always draws the maximum amount from the reserve.
Geoff Speare
From: boaters@ix.netcom.com
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 10:17:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Building Heroic-scale Weapons
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Michael Cugley wrote:
> I'm involved in converting an AD&D background (Dark Sun) to Hero, and
> I've got a list of weapon stats to convert. Most of the stats are
> fairly easy; about the only one I'm not sure of is OCV bonus. What
> sorts of weapons should get an OCV bonus or penalty? Looking at the
> weapons chart isn't much help; I can't, off the top of my head see why
>
> falchions and daggers gets a +1 while scimitars and dirks don't. Any
> thoughts? The weapons are all fairly exotic, so it's not just a case
> of
> using the Hero versions...
>
> Also, does anyone have the address for the Fantasy Hero list? The one
> I
> got bounced...
>
> --
> Mike Cugley mailto://michael.cugley@virgin.net
> Home Page: http://freespace.virgin.net/michael.cugley/
> Art Pages: http://freespace.virgin.net/michael.cugley/Art/
> Athas Pages: http://freespace.virgin.net/michael.cugley/Athas/
Which weapons are you converting? Our Darksun campaign ended just as
we were converting it to Hero. Of course this was about 7 years ago...
Darin
From: boaters@ix.netcom.com
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 10:20:24 -0400
Subject: Re: The Samurai/Peasant Rorshack
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jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
> >I could tell YOU stories, you could tell me stories. Wanna call it a
> wash
> >(WE have no way of knowing what the reality was) and swap bad gaming
> stories?
> >
> >
>
> yeah!! i second this motion! :
>
> okay, worst hero pc i ever saw was made by a guy who wanted to play
> the ultimate dumb blond. . .sooo, he bought lots of com and a bunch of
> luck dice. .Then, he bought
> a vpp to represent being "really really lucky". Then, he wondered why
> i didn't want the character to be in the game. . *l*
I once saw a gm let a character take a 50 com and 35 dice of mind
control with a trigger of whenever she asks. The mind control was to
make the person do whatever she asked of the person. After one session
where 45 normals threw themselves in the way of danger to take the shots
for her was there any wonder why we asked her to leave. Plus the trail
of slobbering men and women was getting disgusting.
Darin
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 10:33:52 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: wga@pop.cwru.edu
From: wga@po.cwru.edu (Will Austin)
Subject: Re: Multipowers
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>This is not meant to answer the question but to supply one of my own.
> Several people in answering the original question have written something
>like: ultra slots always draw their full number of points from the pool even
>when they are not used at full strength. Now, of course ultra slots always
>draw their full number of points from the pool, but we have always played
>that you CANNOT use an ultra-slot at less than full strength as well. Are we
>wrong according to the book, or is it just a common house rule that ultra
>slots can be used at less than full power but still consume their full
>complement of points from the pool?
>
>
>Carter Humphrey
According to the BBB, ultra slots always draw their full points, but
the power doesn't have to be used at full strength. . .
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 09:37:57 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Multipowers
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At 02:30 PM 8/11/97 -0400, Dazzle489@aol.com wrote:
>
>Sorry if this is a crap question but I need a little help.
Crap questions are stuff like, "What sort of Advantage bonus would you
give a Power that ignores half the target's defenses?"
>I'm fairly new to champions and I've created a character with a multipower.
>Not unusual I know but I'm getting three different supposed rules lawyers
>telling me three different versions of how to use it.
>Please,please,please could someone settle this for me/us??
I'll do what I can....
>the versions are:-
>
>1. Multipower slots can be used all at one but they slots must cost a maximum
>of one quarter of the multipower points.
This person must be playing a different game system; it bears no
resemblance to anything I've ever seen in Hero (except maybe Elemental
Control, which is a totally different type of structure).
>2. Multipower slots can cost the full amount of points the multipower has but
>can only be used one at a time (i.e. one per phase).
This is closer to the mark. The real cost of each slot is actually 1/10
of the cost of the Multipower in this case (it looks like the person in
question is assuming all slots to be fixed).
>3. Multipower slots can cost up to as many points as the multipower has but
>when used no more than the total cost of the multipower can be used in any
>one phase using a combination of points from both fixed and variable slots.
>
>No 3 sounds the most plausible but I thought I'd settle this arbitrarily.
[Best Ed McMahon voice] You are correct, sir!
[Normal voice] (Except that you're actually settling it objectively by
getting arbitration; settling it arbitrarily would've been just picking the
one that sounds right to you without checking any authority. But that's
just a nitpick.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page:
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Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 09:38:02 -0700 (PDT)
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From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Multipowers
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At 09:48 AM 8/12/97 -0400, BeerCarboy@aol.com wrote:
> Several people in answering the original question have written something
>like: ultra slots always draw their full number of points from the pool even
>when they are not used at full strength. Now, of course ultra slots always
>draw their full number of points from the pool, but we have always played
>that you CANNOT use an ultra-slot at less than full strength as well. Are we
>wrong according to the book, or is it just a common house rule that ultra
>slots can be used at less than full power but still consume their full
>complement of points from the pool?
House rule. Not necessarily a bad one, mind you, though not one I'd use.
I find nothing in the BBB to indicate this rule to be the case officially.
---
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From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 11:55:35 -0500 (CDT)
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Subject: Re: Ars Magica --> Hero
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>
>
>> From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
>> Also, you might require separate skill levels for each type of magic.
>
> Oh, I will. What's stumped me is how to use them. Ars adds them to
>reach a certain score, Hero rolls under one score. I'm contemplating
>making the PC buy each technique and form as a skill which starts at
>zero. So, the starting mage might spent 24 points to buy a creo of 5 (11
>pts) and an ignem of 6 (13 pts), for a total roll of 11-. The big
>problem with this is the point cost for even modest skill rolls.
> So a mage might have a VPP for the spells he's "learned", bought at
>one point each, and then must pay the exorbinant cost to learn the
>spontaneous magic skills (techniques and forms).
>
>--
>
>Stephen B. Mann sm6439@cnsvax.albany.edu
>SUNY Learning Network http://sln1.esc.edu
I've read and played Ars Magica 3rd Edition. I wish I could give you a
basic idea of how to convert it to Champions, but it wouldn't be easy to say
the least as is obvious with various ideas bouncing around and still no
exact/easy way to do it. I have a suggestion that might help out. Ars
Magica is based on knowing various Techniques and Forms to cast spells, yes
it is possible for someone to cast a fire spell even with Ignem 0 they just
don't have strong spells in that area. Some spells in Ars Magica even had
complimentary or Requiste Techniques or Spells that are required to cast the
spell. So where you might have 3 different Techs and/or Forms, you just
added the lowest two to cast the spell. With this in mind, I would suggest,
allowing the Mage to buy each and every Tech and Form that he or she wishes
to use as a Knowledge Skill, based on Intelligence. Also, those he doesn't
have want should be bought as Familiarities. (ie. Ignem 0 should be bought
as KS: Ignem 8-) Then put the spells in a VPP or Require a Skill Roll at
the very least and label each spell as in Ars Magica (ie. CrIg). Then to
cast the spell, the mage rolls the lowest KS for casting the spell. In
other words, if he is casting a CrIg spell and he has KS: Creo 11- and KS:
Ignem 8-, make him roll the Ignem - the modifier for active points. It may
not be the best, but I feel that it would reflect the Ars Magica system
more. Endurance should come straight from the Mage unless he or she has a
vis source which is normally only used once and gone. Hope this makes
sense, typing while I'm tired, and hope this helps out. Take it easy and
talk at you later.
Sparx
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 12 Aug 97 17:02:38 GMT
Subject: Re: Multipowers
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h> we have always played
h> that you CANNOT use an ultra-slot at less than full
h> strength as well. Are we
h> wrong according to the book, or is it just a common
h> house rule that ultra
h> slots can be used at less than full power but still consume their full
h> complement of points from the pool?
h> Carter Humphrey
It's a 4th Ed thing. In earlier versions, Ultras used all the points
in the pool (regardless of thier point value), they were clearly, one-
at-a-time slots. In 4th Ed, they just use thier total Apts, so you could
end up using two or more Ultras at the same time, if thier Total Apts
still fit within the reserve limits.
Full Power only, would be an additional limitation on the slot in
4th Ed. But I'm sure a lot of earlier edition players took the original
rule to mean that Ultras were always used at full power (there wasn't
much of a reason *not* to, anyway).
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Multipowers
Mail-Copies-To: never
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "O" == Opal <Opal@october.com> writes:
O> It's a 4th Ed thing. In earlier versions, Ultras used all the points
O> in the pool (regardless of thier point value), they were clearly, one-
O> at-a-time slots.
Not at all. There was no prescription in the third edition for having a
Multipower Reserve that was larger than the largest slot. The restriction
on ultra slots was the same as it is in the fourth edition, that an ultra
slot requires its full active point cost allocated from the reserve.
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\ head.
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: Parasites and Intelligent Costumes
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 16:30:18 -0400 (EDT)
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I'm trying to figure out how to implement a character concept, and
having wracked my poor, feeble brain against this for a number of days,
I shall draw upon the boundless creative energy of this listserv...
(how's that for a buildup? ;-)
Anyway, picture a character similar to Spiderman's intelligent, black and
white costume before it became Venom. Basically, an amorphous, blobby
creature that can spread over it's host and take the form of a costume.
The difference between Blobby and Spidey's alien costume is that Blobby's
human hosts never have innate superpowers, and Blobby's hosts are
completely subservient to Blobby's will. Blobby has some innate powers,
and can combine with his host to become a more powerful gestault.
So, Blobby has three forms:
1) Amorphous, blobby protoplasm creature with some minimal, blobby powers.
2) Wimpy, subservient normal who is completely controlled by Blobby. The
normal might have some useful skills, but no powers except a mind link to
Blobby. This is more than a mind control, the Normal is part of Blobby.
3) Blobby and Normal can merge into a combined form. This is the most
powerful form. It is the same shape as Normal, but wears a costume that
is actually Blobby.
There is a thread on the frp newsgroup about an intelligent robot
costume, and I thought Filksinger's suggestion of Multiform combined with
Duplication was an excellent one, and would work quite well here. The
base form would be the Combined Form, the Normal Host would be the
duplicate, and Blobby's blobby form would be the multiform.
But here's the rub: Blobby will occasionally switch hosts, completely
changing the stats of the normal form. Also, when Blobby's host dies,
Blobby is free to find another. So the Normal dupe will completely
change every so often. For play balance and simplification, there are
some limits:
1) Blobby can only have one host at a time. A living host who is
abandoned will regain his/her free will.
2) Blobby cannot make hosts out of high point total characters, or
characters with powers.
But the problems remain:
1) How does Blobby legally change the dupe write-up of his host when he
changes to a new one.
2) How does Blobby regain the 50 CP duplication if his current host dies.
3) What process should Blobby use to transform an NPC into a host?
Transform?
To put it more succinctly: How does Blobby implement an attack that
basically transforms a target into part of Blobby, thereby changing
Blobby's stats and all but killing the target?
I'm clueless, any ideas?
-Eric
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
MMDF-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at punt-2.mail.demon.net
Subject: Re: AoE/Invisible Mental Pow
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 23:18:23 +0100
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I certainly don't think this would be unbalancing. Affecting several minds
simultaneously is the hall mark of many of the most powerful mentalists;
for example Professor X or Emma Frost from the XMen line of comics.
Prof X frequent holds a band of assailants at bay with a mere thought.
I think the easiest way to do this is to consider that the area effect
purely means that you make an ECV roll on every single person in the area
(unless you buy it as selective).
TTFN from Chris!
http://www.lynch1.demon.co.uk
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From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 21:48:07 -0300 (ADT)
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Subject: Re: Multipowers
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On 12 Aug 1997, Opal wrote:
> It's a 4th Ed thing. In earlier versions, Ultras used all the points
> in the pool (regardless of thier point value), they were clearly, one-
> at-a-time slots.
I couldn't find anything to this effect in the 3rd Edition write-up on
Multipowers. Can you provide a specific reference?
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 21:48:07 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
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Subject: Re: Multipowers
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On 12 Aug 1997, Opal wrote:
> It's a 4th Ed thing. In earlier versions, Ultras used all the points
> in the pool (regardless of thier point value), they were clearly, one-
> at-a-time slots.
I couldn't find anything to this effect in the 3rd Edition write-up on
Multipowers. Can you provide a specific reference?
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 21:49:39 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
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Subject: Re: Multipowers
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On Tue, 12 Aug 1997 BeerCarboy@aol.com wrote:
> Several people in answering the original question have written something
> like: ultra slots always draw their full number of points from the pool even
> when they are not used at full strength. Now, of course ultra slots always
> draw their full number of points from the pool, but we have always played
> that you CANNOT use an ultra-slot at less than full strength as well. Are we
> wrong according to the book, or is it just a common house rule that ultra
> slots can be used at less than full power but still consume their full
> complement of points from the pool?
You're wrong according to the book. The first example on page 115 of the
BBB addresses this issue.
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 17:50:59 -0700
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Parasites and Intelligent Costumes
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At 04:30 PM 8/12/97 -0400, Eric Burns wrote:
>I'm trying to figure out how to implement a character concept, and
>having wracked my poor, feeble brain against this for a number of days,
>I shall draw upon the boundless creative energy of this listserv...
>
If the character is an NPC villain, then, rewrite its character sheet when
it takes over a new host, and have a seperate sheet for the blob form.
Or...
Build blobby. Then create a VPP which can be used to skills, stats, etc,
and has an IIF:Host Body. Since the host's mind is basically nulled by
Blobby, the host becomes, in effect, a special effect. You build the hosts
abilities from the VPP.
This is perhaps the only concept Hero doesn't handle easily...I had the
same problem trying to build a character akin to 'Dial H For Hero' or 'The
Sleeper' from Wild Cards. It might just be that (gasp!) a new power
framework is actually needed -- "Serial Form" or, perhaps, a +1 Advantage
to Multiform, "Can rearrange points in multiform".
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:00:27 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: Building Heroic-scale Weapons
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On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Scott Nolan wrote:
> >Looking at the weapons chart isn't much help; I can't, off the top of
> >my head see why falchions and daggers gets a +1 while scimitars and
> >dirks don't.
> Daggers get the OCV bonus because they are far easier to guide than swords.
> Being small, they are practically an extension of the hand.
That's not really an argument for why they should be more accurate than
the hand itself, though.
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:13:16 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: Champions Genre Selection
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On Tue, 12 Aug 1997 j.ward18@genie.com wrote:
> A buncha little things here :
>
> WARNING - This response is based on a gut feeling, which means random data,
> i.e. my own previous experience playing with d*ckweeds who thought royalty
> was a reason to push others around.
That's the definition of royalty in _my_ Anthro textbooks.:)
> The Samurai were "playing in character" lording the peasant around but
> then they failed to stop other samurai from doing something because they
> knew they would get their clocks cleaned.
Which seems reasonable, given that the poster has said it was more of a
realistic than cinematic campaign. But of course he also said that this
wasn't the primary reason.
> Since they a) cheesily let the villains go
You're conveniently ignoring the fact that the "villains" were perfectly
within their rights to do what they did.
> and b) didn't give seppuku a thought,
You know this how, exactly? Some sort of funky postcognitive telepathy
that works through e-mail?
> Area-effect Ego powers - The easy way to manage the "hit the hex" problem is
> for the GM to use his/her spine to make you BUY it so you have to roll to
> hit everyone in the hex.
That was my suggestion, yeah. Since this is cheaper than a standard AoE,
it shouldn't be too hard to sell the player on it.
> Kinda like your 1d6 Flash, based on ECV, area effect. Yeah, it's USEFUL
> (since neither flash defense nor mental defense would technically work on it)
One definitely would. Where do you get the idea that they wouldn't?
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:51:32 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: Ars Magica --> Hero
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On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Sparx wrote:
> I've read and played Ars Magica 3rd Edition. I wish I could give you a
> basic idea of how to convert it to Champions, but it wouldn't be easy to say
> the least as is obvious with various ideas bouncing around and still no
> exact/easy way to do it.
<nod> I picked up Ars Magica intending to convert it to Hero, but decided
to just play Ars Magica.
> Ars Magica is based on knowing various Techniques and Forms to cast spells,
> yes it is possible for someone to cast a fire spell even with Ignem 0 they
> just don't have strong spells in that area.
You might, depending on how high your Technique scores are.
> Some spells in Ars Magica even had complimentary or Requiste Techniques or
> Spells that are required to cast the spell.
I've never seen a Requisite _Spell_ in either ArM3 or ArM4.
> So where you might have 3 different Techs and/or Forms, you just
> added the lowest two to cast the spell.
The lowest Technique and the lowest Form, actually.
> With this in mind, I would suggest, allowing the Mage to buy each and every
> Tech and Form that he or she wishes to use as a Knowledge Skill, based on
> Intelligence. Also, those he doesn't have want should be bought as
> Familiarities. (ie. Ignem 0 should be bought as KS: Ignem 8-) Then put the
> spells in a VPP or Require a Skill Roll at the very least and label each
> spell as in Ars Magica (ie. CrIg). Then to cast the spell, the mage rolls
> the lowest KS for casting the spell. In other words, if he is casting a
> CrIg spell and he has KS: Creo 11- and KS: Ignem 8-, make him roll the Ignem
> - the modifier for active points. It may not be the best, but I feel that
> it would reflect the Ars Magica system more.
As others have pointed out, though, this means that somebody with a low
Ignem score won't be able to do much of anything with Ignem. In Ars,
somebody with Creo 40 and Ignem 0 is just as good at CrIg as somebody with
Creo 20 and Ignem 20. Your system is perfectly reasonably in and of
itself, but it doesn't really duplicate Ars Magica.
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 23:04:58 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: AoE/Invisible Mental Pow
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On Sun, 10 Aug 1997, Robert A. West wrote:
> > > h > If you have an area of effect mental power, do you have to make an ECV
> > > h > roll to hit a target in that area?
> > >
> > > Yes, it's a sepparate attack roll for each target in the area.
> >
> > Assuming, of course, that it's bought that way. Otherwise it's just one
> > roll to hit the area.
>
> "Hit the area?!?" What on earth do you propose as the DECV of a hex?
Barring any specific rule to the contrary, the same as the DCV.
> Only minds can be targeted with a Mental attack.
Under that interpretation, a default AE Mental Attack would be aimed at a
specific person, and if you hit, everybody within a certain distance would
be hit as well. (That's for AE Radius; modify appropriately for other
shapes).
> While one can require that a particular attack hit physically as well as
> mentally (e.g. Mind Control, requires touch), I don't see how one can
> substitute a physical to-hit roll for a mental one, and I have no idea
> what it means to "hit the area" with a mental combat roll.
The exact same as it means with any other AE attack.
> Not to mention my extremely strong feeling that this would be
> unbalancing.
How, exactly? Given that ECV attacks rolls are easier to hit with than CV
ones, you're getting less bang for your buck than with a standard AE.
Comments: Authenticated sender is <b1tlbx98@pop1.sympatico.ca>
From: "Vance Scott" <vances@sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 08:14:23 +0000
Subject: The Champion's GM Corner
Reply-to: vances@sympatico.ca
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I was wondering what type of scenarioes people are running out there.
Are you mainly fighting supervillain teams, single powerful
villains, or evil organizations capable of sending hundreds of agents
after your heroes? What kind encounters, and developments do you most
often use in your campaigns? Are your players ambushed, kidnapped,
captured, put into death traps, lead into booby traps, or put into moral
dilemmas. I'm curious how everyone else is running their campaigns,
and how they plot, and run their adventures.
My preferences are for single powerful villlains able to fight the
entire team by themselves. The main reason I prefer the lone villain
is it's easier to keep track of the stun, and the body done to a
single villain than a host of them. Generally my heroes get the jump
on the villains responding to an emergency, or investigating a
crime after the fact. My favourite plot device is the person with
something to hide. Either they've cooperated in the villainous scheme,
or they know something dangerous to the villains, and themselves.
Vance Scott
Vanquisher of all foes.
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 02:54:27 -0600
From: Curtis Gibson <Mhoram@apeleon.net>
Subject: The Name Game
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This is yet another of those plaintive cries for help from the list at
large, to wit, a
character's Superhero name.
Our group has yet to come up with anything decent.. so here goes....
Character and background.
Name Craig Hutchinson.
He is originally from Nevada. A major linguistics/history buff. A local
Kung fu Sifu was
the only person in the area that knew Chinese (Cantonese). In a deal
worked out Craig
took Kung fu and the Sifu taught him Chinese. A few years later (Craig
at this point was
about 15) a museum tour of Chinese artifacts came through. A sword was
haunted. It
decided on Craig. The ghost in the sword had to teach someone his art,
and Craig was the
only one available at that point in time (why him in a moment). So Craig
became a master
(and later Grandmaster) of many substyles of Kung Fu, especially the
ancient ones.
This was all a wild Martial Arts campaign, which folded, and we moved
him into a
superhero world.
Unknown by the character he is descended from Adrian Vandaluer. He has
incredible
magical talent. He learns magic. Specifically Asian style Fire magic. He
has an ruby amulet (an Eye of a fire spirit). The eye helps with the
fire magic. Recently he has been getting trained by Vincent Dimetrios,
the Sorcerer Supreme of this Dimension.
He belongs to a fairly large Supergroup named Watchtower. He is the
resident Mage.
He is a linguist (35+ point in language skills) and is a Professor of
Chinese history in
Secret ID.
Now we want something that has an Asian flavor (if possible) and fits a
master of both
magic and martial arts. He is known as a firemage. Things with Dragon
and/or fire in the
name will probably not work (one of the founding members of Watchtower
is a MA/EP
named Dragonfire). We tried 'The Shih' for a while but that didn't work
out, and we tried Firewalker until someone reminded us of the movie. Any
suggestions would be
appreciated.
Thanks in advance
-Mhoram
--
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your
two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 03:09:02 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Building Heroic-scale Weapons
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Trevor Barrie wrote:
>
> On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Scott Nolan wrote:
>
> > >Looking at the weapons chart isn't much help; I can't, off the top of
> > >my head see why falchions and daggers gets a +1 while scimitars and
> > >dirks don't.
>
> > Daggers get the OCV bonus because they are far easier to guide than swords.
> > Being small, they are practically an extension of the hand.
>
> That's not really an argument for why they should be more accurate than
> the hand itself, though.
I would think that it's not so much that a dagger is more accurate
than a naked hand, but that being a rigid blade, it is more likely to
still do significant damage with 'glancing' blows, while a glancing blow
with a fist is significantly diminished.
Just an impression (which I only happened upon, actually, just now...).
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 04:32:05 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: FISHY POWERS, Part II (FINALLY!)
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Sorry for the interminable delay, but here is the second part of
underwater rules from "Atlantis", which covers specific effects on
powers, skills and their ilk.
SKILLS
------
ACROBATICS;
Acrobatics rolls are made at -5 due to water resistance. Characters
with swimming or the Underwater Movement Talent (also from Atlantis,
cost 3 points) ignore Acrobatics penalties.
BREAKFALL;
Breakfall is mostly unaffected underwater, due to the water's effect
on knockback and STR.
CLIMBING;
Climbing speed is halved underwater, but usually is unnecessary
(characters can usually swim up any slope), except possibly for a highly
dense (lots o' Growth or D.I.) character who can't swim.
CONCEALMENT;
Due to decreased PER, concealment underwater becomes very
effective!(No specifics are given, but I believe Concealment rolls are
made normally, but detecting concealment is vastly more difficult)
DISGUISE;
Preparing a disguise underwater is more difficult, but a successful
disguise is much more effective due to the aforementioned PER penalties.
LIP READING;
Assuming there are people speaking with exposed mouths underwater in
the first place, lipreading is limited only be PER roll penalties.
MARTIAL ARTS;
Blocks and Dodges are unaffected, but attacks are affected as listed
in the previous post (waaaaaayy back). OCV and DCV penalties also still
apply.
SLEIGHT OF HAND;
This would be affected by any DEX penalties for under water use.
STEALTH;
Rolls made at -3
TRACKING;
This skill may be totally useless underwater, unless the target is
travelling along the bottom. All PER penalties apply to tracking.
VENTRILOQUIST;
Due to the efficiency of sound underwater, this skill's effectiveness
is greatly increased, receiving only -1 per 3" of distance. (I believe
this effect presupposes Life Support; can breathe[speak] underwater)
TALENTS
-------
COMBAT SENSE;
Water broadcasts the various movements of others well, so combat
sense gains +2 to rolls.
FAST DRAW;
You've tried to move quickly underwater, haven't you? -2 to Fast
Draw.
FIND WEAKNESS;
Attempting to Find Weakness requires first a PER roll to see target
(with appropriate modifiers). (The book doesn't say so, but I would
think that PER modifiers would be at least partially applied to the find
weakness roll as well)
LIGHTSLEEP;
Assuming one CAN sleep underwater, this is very effective; +2 to
detect any intruder or movement-based (or sound-based)
'sleep-disturber'.
POWERS
------
ARMOR;
Non-focussed armor will work normally. Focussed armor may limit
movement - particularly swimming or running - up to 1/2, depending on
the armor's SFX. If the armor is part of a suit which also enhances
swimming or running, then the penalties for movement is/are ignored for
the enhanced movement(s).
CLINGING;
This power's effectiveness will depend on its SFX. Each case of
Clinging should be judged individually by the GM.
CLAIRSENTIENCE;
Hearing with Clairsentience is at +2, all other PER through
Clairsentience is at normal underwater PER penalties.
DENSITY INCREASE;
The POWER is unaffected by underwater use, but a dense enough
character may sink into the bottom muck more easily that other, or may
even be unable to swim. Heavy/Dense enough characters may have to make
a STR roll to move across the bottom of any natural body of water
(moving along the bottom of a swimming pool is unaffected :-)> )
ENERGY BLASTS;
As per the SFX changes from last post.
ENTANGLE;
Water soluble Entangles will lose 1 BODY and DEF per turn
underwater. If the Entangle is thrown (net, gernade, etc.) then it is
subject to the 'thrown things' penalties. (Most likely next to
pointless)
FLASH;
Mostly as per SFX changes. Light-based flashes affecting sight will
reduce in effectiveness, sound-based flashes vs. hearing will be more
effective.
FLIGHT;
Flying movement will be at least halved, unless the limitation "Works
Only Underwater"(to represent superspeed swimming) or advantage "Works
normally underwater" are bought. Different SFX will yield varying
results; flame-based flight may not work at all, flight defined as
'wind-riding' won't work, winged flight may work at 1/2 speed or less,
etc.
FORCE FIELD/WALL;
As per SFX changes.
GLIDING;
Not at all, unless gliding is bought with "Underwater use" advantage
or limitation to represent something else.
IMAGES;
If based on light projection, the will suffer normal penalties for
light SFX generally. Other SFX need to be judged on an individual
basis. Images which do appear normally will be more effective due to
PER penalties against those trying to 'see through' the artifice.
MISSLE DEFLECTION/REFLECTION;
Penalties vs. thrown objects and penalties to movement virtually
cancel each other out for these purposes, so MD works 'normally' vs.
thrown weapons/attacks. MD vs. Energy attacks suffer the standard
OCV/DCV penalties.
RUNNING;
Usually not the best mode of travel. IF a character is weighted down
or has enough Density Increase, running is halved, or worse depending on
the 'muckiness' of the surface being run upon. If the surface is
slippery (algae-covered, for example) a DEX or Acrobatics roll may be
necessary to maintain full (which is 1/2) movement.
SWINGING;
Oh, come on. The book says it's at 1/2 or less or none. I say that
Swinging underwater is just swimming while holding onto a line of some
kind. You be the judge.
TELEKINESIS;
Once a successful PER roll is made to 'lock on' to the target, TK
then works normally, barring any 'bad' SFX.
ADVANTAGES
----------
EXPLOSIONS;
Physical explosions are particularly effective; add 5 points per 20
active points in the power and double the explosion's radius. Also,
everyone caught in the explosion is subject to 1D6 Flash vs. hearing
sense GROUP for every 3DC they are hit by.
Energy explosions work normally, subject to 'normal' SFX changes.
STICKY;
Effectiveness depends on SFX.
LIMITATIONS
-----------
GESTURES;
Characters must make a DEX roll underwater to use a power requiring
gestures.
INCANTATIONS;
If the character can breathe/speak normally underwater (or has a
focus to do so which does not restrict his/her mouth) then Incantations
are unaffected. Otherwise, you're up a creek (so to speak).
Well, that's it. Of course many of the various movement limitations
would be negated by the Talent "Underwater Movement" (3 points), but
those cases should be reasonably obvious.
Also offered in "Atlantis" is the Advantage "Power works normally
underwater" (+1/4). This can apply to enhanced senses, flight,
Entangles, Missle Deflection, etc. It does not apply to offensive
powers. (Hey, that's what they told me, I'm just the messenger).
All information is from "Atlantis(TM) a sourcebook for Champions",
though I do not promise 100% accuracy in my translations.
Enjoy all!
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
X-Sender: jason@207.211.123.98
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 10:16:21 -0400
From: "Jason Herber" <jason@cnewsgroup.com>
Subject: Re: The Champion's GM Corner
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>I was wondering what type of scenarioes people are running out there.
>Are you mainly fighting supervillain teams, single powerful
>villains, or evil organizations capable of sending hundreds of agents
>after your heroes? What kind encounters, and developments do you most
>often use in your campaigns? Are your players ambushed, kidnapped,
>captured, put into death traps, lead into booby traps, or put into moral
>dilemmas. I'm curious how everyone else is running their campaigns,
>and how they plot, and run their adventures.
Well, I for one don't really have a standard m.o. for campaigning in the,
"who are the enemies going to be?" sense.
I start by listening to the histories of the PCs, and tweaking their
Disadvantages accordingly. I then use the DNPCs, Hunteds, Rivalrys,
Contacts, etc. to build a world around the characters, and to tie them
together. One person's Hunted may be another's Rival and so forth.
>From there, I let things develop 'naturally'. Check to see which Disad
NPCs are going to show up for that adventure, and see what kind of mess I
can create using them. ;) I also consider things like Foci and
Independant powers [and many other Limitations] in the adventure creation
process.
EX: If a Hunted and a Rival will show, will maybe the Hunted steal away
with the PCs Independant Focus? Will the Rival steal it back for the PC,
rubbing his face in it?
Over all of this, I have some continuing plot idea that I weave into the
individual adventures. The uberstory colors most every adventure with some
clues, until the PCs stop focusing on their Disad NPCs and/or the situation
at hand, and start actively pursuing the 'behind the scenes' figure(s).
In general, though, I'm more fond of villain superteams than ubervillains
or agents as adversaries. Personality is my passion, and supervillains
give me an outlet for that.
Good thread, BTW.
Jason M. Herber - Webmaster \\|//
Computer News Group (919)881-3177 jason@cnewsgroup.com 0^0
WebMasters (919)881-0922 jason@webmasters.net ]
_________________FAX:(919)881-9504____________________ooO___-___Ooo_
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 10:49:57 -0600
From: Curtis Gibson <Mhoram@apeleon.net>
Subject: Re: The Champion's GM Corner (Long)
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Vance Scott wrote:
>
> I was wondering what type of scenarioes people are running out there.
> Are you mainly fighting supervillain teams, single powerful
> villains, or evil organizations capable of sending hundreds of agents
> after your heroes?
I bounce on a fairly irregular basis between all three. The three most
occuring nasties I have are TAROT (a huge Superteam with agents based
on, you guessed it the Tarot), PSI (which IMC has almost no agents), and
Genocide (a primarily agent based orginization). I save the run-ins
with one on team fights for the truly spectaculat: Dr. Destroyer,
Maximus (my Mechanon), that sort of thing. I try to keep a variety. I
also like to adapt Dark Champions adventures for a mainly nonfighting
detective/mystery adventure.
>What kind encounters, and developments do you most
> often use in your campaigns? Are your players ambushed, kidnapped,
> captured, put into death traps, lead into booby traps, or put into moral
> dilemmas. I'm curious how everyone else is running their campaigns,
> and how they plot, and run their adventures.
A lot of the devolpments and encounters I use are specialized because of
the specific nature of my campaign. Superpowers came into existance in
1986 or so. Most of the Villian teams and both good and bad guy super
agencies are still developing. I also try to make things personal for
the players. One picked up a hunted by Vengence (used to be Golden
Avenger before he went Mercenary) by stealing his gauntlents, taunting
him, and beating him twice on TV. Then Vengence went and joined
Genocide; became one of the founding memebers. Another character was a
government researcher when paranomalities started appearing and her
superior was a huge Hyper-phobe. He later founded genocide.
Atlas (from the module) was one of the early adventures I ran and they
have been tied up with the team ever since as well.
I don't use death traps that often. I have had members of the team
captured, and kidnapped. I love personality stories and moral dillemas.
One of the best 'personality' bits I've ever done.. the aforementioned
researcher. She started out as a what if... what if Henry Gyrich got
superpowers? This Hyper-phobe (we have no mutants over 10 or so) became
a major heroine (and reformed in attitude on supers). Then I ran Wings
of the Valkeries.. One of the plot points is the Fascist modern america.
The Heroine in question, in the altered world, had become the head of
the Hyper/Mutant enforcement division of the government. The player when
confronting the mastermind of the adventure (in which the Heros have to
save Hitler from assassination) pointed to the head of the SS and said
through clenched teeth "You turned me into him!!!".
That is what I GM for. 8)
> Vance Scott
>
> Vanquisher of all foes.
--Mhoram
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your
two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 09:51:08 -0700
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Multipowers
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At 05:02 PM 8/12/97 GMT, Opal wrote:
>Full Power only, would be an additional limitation on the slot in
>4th Ed. But I'm sure a lot of earlier edition players took the original
>rule to mean that Ultras were always used at full power (there wasn't
>much of a reason *not* to, anyway).
>
I have always assumed an Ultra was a 'lockout' on all other powers in the
multipower;after all, the name comes (I always thought) from Ultra Boy, who
had all the powers of Superboy but could only use them one at a time.
(Causing him great trouble when he tried to use his super-speed to break
the time barrier, since the air friction nearly killed him due to lack of
invulnerability)
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From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 09:51:08 -0700
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Subject: Re: Multipowers
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At 05:02 PM 8/12/97 GMT, Opal wrote:
>Full Power only, would be an additional limitation on the slot in
>4th Ed. But I'm sure a lot of earlier edition players took the original
>rule to mean that Ultras were always used at full power (there wasn't
>much of a reason *not* to, anyway).
>
I have always assumed an Ultra was a 'lockout' on all other powers in the
multipower;after all, the name comes (I always thought) from Ultra Boy, who
had all the powers of Superboy but could only use them one at a time.
(Causing him great trouble when he tried to use his super-speed to break
the time barrier, since the air friction nearly killed him due to lack of
invulnerability)
Subject: Re: The Name Game
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 13:30:32 -0500 (CDT)
From: smailys@umr.edu (Roland Spades)
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Weeelllll......
Soulblaze...
The Flame...
Soulpyre...
Pyre...
Just some quick thoughts, there
go.
By the way, did you get the name 'Mhoram' from The Chronicles of
Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever? Just curious.
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Multipowers
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 13 Aug 1997 14:40:56 -0400
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "L" == Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> writes:
L> I have always assumed an Ultra was a 'lockout' on all other powers in
L> the multipower;
It is no such thing. An ultra slot requires that the full active cost of
the slot be allocated from the reserve, nothing more and nothing less.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
\ Earth, presumably from outer space.
X-Sender: wabbit@globaldialog.com (Unverified)
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:42:56 -0500
From: Earl Kwallek <earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us>
Subject: Re: Multipowers
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At 05:02 PM 8/12/97 GMT, Opal wrote:
>It's a 4th Ed thing. In earlier versions, Ultras used all the points
>in the pool (regardless of thier point value), they were clearly, one-
>at-a-time slots. In 4th Ed, they just use thier total Apts, so you could
>end up using two or more Ultras at the same time, if thier Total Apts
>still fit within the reserve limits.
I own EVERY edition of the Champions/Hero system and I never interpreted
it that way.... It was always very clear to me that an ULTRA slot always
takes a certain number of points (the APts of that power slot) from the
Multipower "Pool", but if you have a 90 pt pool. there is no reason why you
couldn't have a 60 pt Ultra and a 30 pt Ultra, or 3 Ultras of 30 pts.
>Full Power only, would be an additional limitation on the slot in
>4th Ed. But I'm sure a lot of earlier edition players took the original
>rule to mean that Ultras were always used at full power (there wasn't
>much of a reason *not* to, anyway).
>
Earl Kwallek - Earl@TheWarren.Mil.Wi.US
A Man with a gun is a citizen;
a man without a gun is a subject.
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org
From: Earl Kwallek <earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us>
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:42:56 -0500
X-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero), champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Multipowers
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At 05:02 PM 8/12/97 GMT, Opal wrote:
>It's a 4th Ed thing. In earlier versions, Ultras used all the points
>in the pool (regardless of thier point value), they were clearly, one-
>at-a-time slots. In 4th Ed, they just use thier total Apts, so you could
>end up using two or more Ultras at the same time, if thier Total Apts
>still fit within the reserve limits.
I own EVERY edition of the Champions/Hero system and I never interpreted
it that way.... It was always very clear to me that an ULTRA slot always
takes a certain number of points (the APts of that power slot) from the
Multipower "Pool", but if you have a 90 pt pool. there is no reason why you
couldn't have a 60 pt Ultra and a 30 pt Ultra, or 3 Ultras of 30 pts.
>Full Power only, would be an additional limitation on the slot in
>4th Ed. But I'm sure a lot of earlier edition players took the original
>rule to mean that Ultras were always used at full power (there wasn't
>much of a reason *not* to, anyway).
>
Earl Kwallek - Earl@TheWarren.Mil.Wi.US
A Man with a gun is a citizen;
a man without a gun is a subject.
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 15:15:00 -0400
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org>
Subject: Outage
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The server on which champ-l/hero-l runs crashed hard yesterday, which broke
the list from then until this afternoon. Sorry about that...
We also lost the last couple days of changes, so if you unsubscribed and
mysteriously now find yourself back on the list, just let me know and I'll
unsub you again.
--
Geoff Speare
OMG
geoff@omg.org
From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net>
Subject: Restraining powers
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:00:56 -0400 (EDT)
Organization: VTSFFC
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Okay, here's a question about something that seems to happen in comics
alot. An electrical energy projector was captured, and his powers
restrained by glopping a heavy insulating material over his hands.
Basicly, a hands-only Entangle with too much Def for him to even think
about shooting it away.
The character in question has a straight 10d6 EB in a Multi, along with
some other misc electrical powers. No limitations on any of them.
The question is: would the above "trap" actually stop the character
from using his weaponry, or could he simply start firing lighting
bolts out his feet/nose/whatever? (This is a 4-color game).
The character does _normally_ fire bolts from his hands, but there's
no actual reference to it on the sheet.
My own call on the matter is that the character can start sneezing
ten thousand volts out his nose if he feels like it and didn't take
a limitation saying otherwise.
Daniel Pawtowski
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:21:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dennis C Hwang <dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu>
Subject: Re: Restraining powers
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On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, Daniel Pawtowski wrote:
>
> Okay, here's a question about something that seems to happen in comics
> alot. An electrical energy projector was captured, and his powers
> restrained by glopping a heavy insulating material over his hands.
> Basicly, a hands-only Entangle with too much Def for him to even think
> about shooting it away.
> The character in question has a straight 10d6 EB in a Multi, along with
> some other misc electrical powers. No limitations on any of them.
> The question is: would the above "trap" actually stop the character
> from using his weaponry, or could he simply start firing lighting
> bolts out his feet/nose/whatever? (This is a 4-color game).
> The character does _normally_ fire bolts from his hands, but there's
> no actual reference to it on the sheet.
> My own call on the matter is that the character can start sneezing
> ten thousand volts out his nose if he feels like it and didn't take
> a limitation saying otherwise.
>
> Daniel Pawtowski
I would tend to agree. It's a bit of a matter of taste, I guess, but if I
wanted to define a character that could shoot blasts from his hands ONLY,
I would give him a limitation to that effect, such as the Restrainable
limitation from HSA I, or maybe use Gestures to reflect this.
Since the character doesn't have any such limitation, then let the nasal
blasts fly!
--Dennis
dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu
xenopathologist at large!
Deathwalker for President: for some *real* health care reform.
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:41:03 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Restraining powers
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Daniel Pawtowski wrote:
>
> Okay, here's a question about something that seems to happen in comics
> alot. An electrical energy projector was captured, and his powers
> restrained by glopping a heavy insulating material over his hands.
> Basicly, a hands-only Entangle with too much Def for him to even think
> about shooting it away.
> The character in question has a straight 10d6 EB in a Multi, along with
> some other misc electrical powers. No limitations on any of them.
> The question is: would the above "trap" actually stop the character
> from using his weaponry, or could he simply start firing lighting
> bolts out his feet/nose/whatever? (This is a 4-color game).
> The character does _normally_ fire bolts from his hands, but there's
> no actual reference to it on the sheet.
> My own call on the matter is that the character can start sneezing
> ten thousand volts out his nose if he feels like it and didn't take
> a limitation saying otherwise.
>
> Daniel Pawtowski
I believe that when this happens in the comics, it's generally
literary liscence, and to let the hero/villian still look good.
In a game, an effect like this would depend on either A)the EB being
limited or defined as 'hands only' when created, or B)a NORMAL
(unlimited) entangle with the special effect being a covering over the
hands (to represent the suppression of the power). I occasionally use a
limitation on entangles to reflect powers which are APPLIED as per an
entangle, but the 'side effects' are of primary importance;
(-1)Entangle does not limit movement.
This may, on the surface seem pointless, but consider Spider-Man
blinding someone by webbing over their eyes. This _could_ be bought as
a flash, but it doesn't just wear off after a couple of phases as per
Flash, and can be removed by anyone with enough STR/applied damage.
Thus I use an Entangle which stops sight, with the (-1);Entangle doesn't
limit movement to accurately reflect the webbing sfx.
I use a (-1) due to me basic philosophy;(-1) if a limitation removes
a power's PRIMARY effect. (A normal EB which does no STUN would receive
-1)
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Restraining powers
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-20
From: dwtoomey@juno.com (David W Toomey)
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 17:49:50 EDT
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>Okay, here's a question about something that seems to happen in comics
>alot. An electrical energy projector was captured, and his powers
>restrained by glopping a heavy insulating material over his hands.
>Basicly, a hands-only Entangle with too much Def for him to even think
>about shooting it away.
>The question is: would the above "trap" actually stop the character
>from using his weaponry, or could he simply start firing lighting
>bolts out his feet/nose/whatever? (This is a 4-color game).
>The character does _normally_ fire bolts from his hands, but there's
>no actual reference to it on the sheet.
> My own call on the matter is that the character can start sneezing
>ten thousand volts out his nose if he feels like it and didn't take
>a limitation saying otherwise.
>
Character Conception (when created) + GM's call...
David W Toomey
dwtoomey@juno.com
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Restraining powers
Mail-Copies-To: never
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>>>>> "DP" == Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net> writes:
DP> Okay, here's a question about something that seems to happen in comics
DP> alot. An electrical energy projector was captured, and his powers
DP> restrained by glopping a heavy insulating material over his hands.
DP> Basicly, a hands-only Entangle with too much Def for him to even think
DP> about shooting it away.
Actually, such restraints are more than just Entangle. If they are
designed to restrain powers as well as movement, they should be purchased
with some degree of Suppress.
And now, I will answer a question with questions. Would you give Cyclops
of the X-Men a limitation on his Energy Blast because it originates at his
eyes? If so, why? How much does it really limit him? And if not, would
you allow him to suddenly start firing them from his fingertips?
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds.
\
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:44:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Restraining powers
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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Stainless Steel Rat writes:
> And now, I will answer a question with questions. Would you give Cyclops
> of the X-Men a limitation on his Energy Blast because it originates at his
> eyes? If so, why? How much does it really limit him? And if not, would
> you allow him to suddenly start firing them from his fingertips?
Well, energy blasts which originate from the eyes are pretty clearly more
limited than energy blasts which originate from anywhere; thus, _if_ the
default is 'originate from anywhere', he gets a limitation.
Personally, I think that the default assumption for an energy blast is _not_
that it can attack from anywhere on your body (such abilities being rather rare
in the comics). Given that, it is probably a +1/4 advantage to be able to
attack from any part of your body.
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 20:10:08 -0400
From: "Kevin J. McClain" <KevLord@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: KevLord@worldnet.att.net
Organization: Courts of Kirkwood
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: The Champion's GM Corner
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
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X-UID: 1
Vance Scott wrote:Vance Scott wrote:
> I was wondering what type of scenarioes people are running out there.
> Are you mainly fighting supervillain teams, single powerful
> villains, or evil organizations capable of sending hundreds of agents
>
> after your heroes? What kind encounters, and developments do you most
> often use in your campaigns? Are your players ambushed, kidnapped,
> captured, put into death traps, lead into booby traps, or put into
> moral
> dilemmas.....
All of the above. remember, Champs is a super hero RPG. all of the
things you have mentioned are part of "superheroing". The most
important thing to remember is that if the storytelling is no good, the
players lose interest. They do not need a GM to referee a weekly
free-for-all.
I have technique I use which has kept my campaigns fresh. Each player
writes detailed histories of their characters. When they are not saving
the world from my Dr. Doom clone, they are playing in a scenario
specifically for one of the characters. This allows past injustices to
be righted, family problems to be mended, PC lives to change to reflect
new and bought-off Disads. All the time they still get to do their
super heroic duty. If you have a really moral group of heroes, then
moral dilemmas become a meaningful adventure instead of just a prelude
to villain bashing. I never will forget the 90 min. real time argument
my players had trying to come up with a plan for the heroes to break
into a house and steal a doll from a sleeping six-year-old.
Variety is the spice of life so mix it up. don't try to box yourself,
and your players into a "formula campaign"
Kev
"Not every problem threatens the world, But every problem threatens
someone's world."
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 20:25:56 -0400
From: "Kevin J. McClain" <KevLord@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: KevLord@worldnet.att.net
Organization: Courts of Kirkwood
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: The Name Game
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
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X-UID: 2
How about Firestrike, Fire Heart, Blaze Hand, Ember Heart, Flame Stroke,
Immolator, Star Hand.
Or maybe Heat Stroke, Combustron, Kindling, Burning Zone, Willy Pete.
But why not simply Singe? It's very Asian sounding and could be spelled
differently.
Kev
Not every problem threatens the world, but every problem threatens
somebody's world
------------------
Curtis Gibson wrote:
> This is yet another of those plaintive cries for help from the list at
>
> large, to wit, a
> character's Superhero name.
>
> Our group has yet to come up with anything decent.. so here goes....
>
> Character and background.
> Name Craig Hutchinson.
> He is originally from Nevada. A major linguistics/history buff. A
> local
> Kung fu Sifu was
> the only person in the area that knew Chinese (Cantonese). In a deal
> worked out Craig
> took Kung fu and the Sifu taught him Chinese. A few years later (Craig
>
> at this point was
> about 15) a museum tour of Chinese artifacts came through. A sword was
>
> haunted. It
> decided on Craig. The ghost in the sword had to teach someone his art,
>
> and Craig was the
> only one available at that point in time (why him in a moment). So
> Craig
> became a master
> (and later Grandmaster) of many substyles of Kung Fu, especially the
> ancient ones.
>
> This was all a wild Martial Arts campaign, which folded, and we moved
> him into a
> superhero world.
>
> Unknown by the character he is descended from Adrian Vandaluer. He has
>
> incredible
> magical talent. He learns magic. Specifically Asian style Fire magic.
> He
> has an ruby amulet (an Eye of a fire spirit). The eye helps with the
> fire magic. Recently he has been getting trained by Vincent Dimetrios,
>
> the Sorcerer Supreme of this Dimension.
> He belongs to a fairly large Supergroup named Watchtower. He is the
> resident Mage.
> He is a linguist (35+ point in language skills) and is a Professor of
> Chinese history in
> Secret ID.
>
> Now we want something that has an Asian flavor (if possible) and fits
> a
> master of both
> magic and martial arts. He is known as a firemage. Things with Dragon
> and/or fire in the
> name will probably not work (one of the founding members of Watchtower
>
> is a MA/EP
> named Dragonfire). We tried 'The Shih' for a while but that didn't
> work
> out, and we tried Firewalker until someone reminded us of the movie.
> Any
> suggestions would be
> appreciated.
>
> Thanks in advance
> -Mhoram
> --
> Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your
> two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 21:16:30 -0400
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org>
Subject: HAC web site
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Does anyone know where the Hero Auxiliary Corps web site is located?
Geoff Speare
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Restraining powers
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>>>>> "AJ" == Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> writes:
AJ> Well, energy blasts which originate from the eyes are pretty clearly
AJ> more limited than energy blasts which originate from anywhere;
And claws (killing attack) that originates from one's hands is more limited
than one that can originate anywhere, so Wolverine gets a limitation on
those, right?
I think you can see that this can become completely absurd. Where a power
originates in relation to a character's body is generally nothing more than
a special effect.
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From: boaters@ix.netcom.com
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 22:56:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Restraining powers
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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X-UID: 5
David W Toomey wrote:
> >Okay, here's a question about something that seems to happen in
> comics
> >alot. An electrical energy projector was captured, and his powers
> >restrained by glopping a heavy insulating material over his hands.
> >Basicly, a hands-only Entangle with too much Def for him to even
> think
> >about shooting it away.
> >The question is: would the above "trap" actually stop the character
> >from using his weaponry, or could he simply start firing lighting
> >bolts out his feet/nose/whatever? (This is a 4-color game).
> >The character does _normally_ fire bolts from his hands, but there's
> >no actual reference to it on the sheet.
>
> > My own call on the matter is that the character can start sneezing
> >ten thousand volts out his nose if he feels like it and didn't take
> >a limitation saying otherwise.
> >
>
> Character Conception (when created) + GM's call...
>
> David W Toomey
> dwtoomey@juno.com
I think that Character Conception is the winner here. Otherwise the
system gets too abused. Why couldn't I just take physical lym. can
only speak out of mouth then? (ha ha)
From: DocTough@aol.com
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 23:33:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: HAC web site
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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X-UID: 6
Doc sez...
Hi Geoff, Sue, Brian ,and the y other HACers should be able to be
reached at:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/herogames
It was great meeting and gaming with you at Gencon.
Doc Tough
From: ErolB1@aol.com
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 00:35:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Parasites and Intelligent Costumes
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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In a message dated 97-08-12 21:14:22 EDT, lizard@dnai.com writes:
> At 04:30 PM 8/12/97 -0400, Eric Burns wrote:
> >I'm trying to figure out how to implement a character concept, and
> >having wracked my poor, feeble brain against this for a number of days,
> >I shall draw upon the boundless creative energy of this listserv...
> >
> If the character is an NPC villain, then, rewrite its character sheet when
> it takes over a new host, and have a seperate sheet for the blob form.
>
> Or...
>
> Build blobby. Then create a VPP which can be used to skills, stats, etc,
> and has an IIF:Host Body. Since the host's mind is basically nulled by
> Blobby, the host becomes, in effect, a special effect. You build the hosts
> abilities from the VPP.
>
> This is perhaps the only concept Hero doesn't handle easily...I had the
> same problem trying to build a character akin to 'Dial H For Hero' or 'The
> Sleeper' from Wild Cards. It might just be that (gasp!) a new power
> framework is actually needed -- "Serial Form" or, perhaps, a +1 Advantage
> to Multiform, "Can rearrange points in multiform".
This requires "Special GM Permission" (to put a Special Power into a VPP),
but what about creating a "Multiform-only VPP"?
Erol K. Bayburt
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow
From: CptPatriot@aol.com
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 00:57:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Short Story
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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I've written a short story based, in part, on the Champions universe and my
character Justice.
You can check it out at members.aol.com/cptpatriot/justice.rtf
I'd appreciate any feedback.
Archie
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford)
Subject: Re: Restraining powers
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 09:49:16 GMT
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On Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:00:56 -0400 (EDT), you wrote:
>
>Okay, here's a question about something that seems to happen in comics
>alot. An electrical energy projector was captured, and his powers
>restrained by glopping a heavy insulating material over his hands.
>Basicly, a hands-only Entangle with too much Def for him to even think
>about shooting it away.
> The character in question has a straight 10d6 EB in a Multi, along with
>some other misc electrical powers. No limitations on any of them.
>The question is: would the above "trap" actually stop the character
>from using his weaponry, or could he simply start firing lighting
>bolts out his feet/nose/whatever? (This is a 4-color game).
>The character does _normally_ fire bolts from his hands, but there's
>no actual reference to it on the sheet.
> My own call on the matter is that the character can start sneezing
>ten thousand volts out his nose if he feels like it and didn't take
>a limitation saying otherwise.
There's something about this in the BBB, where it says energy
projectors are supposed to define how they direct their powers. That's
why Oculon cannot fire energy bolts from his hands, etc. It isn't
really a limitation, but it can lead to situations where the player
has to figure out something different to do.
For an example, right this minute try to do something with your feet
that you normally do with your hands. If a character has always used
his hands to fire energy blasts, it's going to be hard for him to use
some other part of his body to do this on the spur of the moment.
John Lansford
Comments: Authenticated sender is <b1tlbx98@pop1.sympatico.ca>
From: "Vance Scott" <vances@sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 10:49:03 +0000
Subject: Re: The Champion's GM Corner
Reply-to: vances@sympatico.ca
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Priority: normal
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> All of the above. remember, Champs is a super hero RPG. all of the
> things you have mentioned are part of "superheroing". The most
> important thing to remember is that if the storytelling is no good, the
> players lose interest. They do not need a GM to referee a weekly
> free-for-all.
Agreed.
> I have technique I use which has kept my campaigns fresh. Each player
> writes detailed histories of their characters. When they are not saving
> the world from my Dr. Doom clone, they are playing in a scenario
> specifically for one of the characters. This allows past injustices to
> be righted, family problems to be mended, PC lives to change to reflect
> new and bought-off Disads. All the time they still get to do their
> super heroic duty.
I call this keeping a story personal. Raising the stakes, and
importance of a scenario is most easily accomplished by making the
results of the scenario cause personal loss, or change for your
heroes.
> If you have a really moral group of heroes, then
> moral dilemmas become a meaningful adventure instead of just a prelude
> to villain bashing. I never will forget the 90 min. real time argument
> my players had trying to come up with a plan for the heroes to break
> into a house and steal a doll from a sleeping six-year-old.
That's a good moral dilemma. One story told by a bunch of my
friends is about a causal killer, and a player with a code against killing.
The killer was about to off the bad guy when the team brick screams
out," NOOOoo", and gives ripper (the killer) a hook starting from
yesterday. The killer, and the Brick were the most powerful characters
on the team, and this led to quite the rivalry.
> Variety is the spice of life so mix it up. don't try to box yourself,
> and your players into a "formula campaign"
I might disagree with the formula's not being useful though. Story
formula's are really successful story-lines that have gone stale.
A good thing to remember is formula's are like cliches they started out
being fresh, and attention grabbing, but through repetition they've
become stale, and boring. It's a good idea to keep successful old
formulas in mind when you plot your latest story line, but you have
to add new elements, and twists to keep your plot fresh.
I can't argue with adding variety, but it is possible to go to far, and
spoil the campaign's theme, and mood.
Vance Scott
Vanquisher of all foes.
X-Sender: wabbit@globaldialog.com (Unverified)
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 07:32:12 -0500
From: Earl Kwallek <earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us>
Subject: Re: Restraining powers
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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X-UID: 14
At 06:17 PM 8/14/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>And now, I will answer a question with questions. Would you give Cyclops
>of the X-Men a limitation on his Energy Blast because it originates at his
>eyes? If so, why? How much does it really limit him? And if not, would
>you allow him to suddenly start firing them from his fingertips?
I wish I could remember the game system that did this...
But some system I saw one had a list of advantages/disads based on WHERE
the energy blast originates from....
Example: (Hand is the default)
Eyes- Easier to hit with (just look at target), and I don't remember the
associated disad.
If anyone has the game that this comes from could you look it up and post
it?
Then we'll see if we can hack it up for Hero applications....
Earl Kwallek - Earl@TheWarren.Mil.Wi.US
A Man with a gun is a citizen;
a man without a gun is a subject.
X-Sender: wabbit@globaldialog.com (Unverified)
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 07:43:19 -0500
From: Earl Kwallek <earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us>
Subject: Re: Parasites and Intelligent Costumes
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
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X-UID: 13
At 12:35 AM 8/15/97 -0400, ErolB1@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 97-08-12 21:14:22 EDT, lizard@dnai.com writes:
>> This is perhaps the only concept Hero doesn't handle easily...I had the
>> same problem trying to build a character akin to 'Dial H For Hero' or 'The
>> Sleeper' from Wild Cards. It might just be that (gasp!) a new power
>> framework is actually needed -- "Serial Form" or, perhaps, a +1 Advantage
>> to Multiform, "Can rearrange points in multiform".
>
>This requires "Special GM Permission" (to put a Special Power into a VPP),
>but what about creating a "Multiform-only VPP"?
This begs the question of how much a Limitation like "Only to buy
different variations on one ability" is worth for a VPP...
With a Power like Multiform, I would say it's not much (if any) limitation.
If you wanted to buy something like this to reconfigure your Forcefield
at will to maximize it's effectiveness against the foes you are fighting
this week, well that's something of a limitation (You still can't do
anything other than forcefields)
Earl Kwallek - Earl@TheWarren.Mil.Wi.US
A Man with a gun is a citizen;
a man without a gun is a subject.
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com>
Subject: Haymaker and Power Point: Teleport Tricks
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 09:39:42 -0400
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 12
The website for Haymaker, the APAzine of Champions, has been majorly
upgraded. Be a hero and visit at
http://www.geocities.com/area51/cavern/1905/haymaker.html
Power Point, Dave Mattingly's column in Haymaker, has brought another
article on-line: Nifty Teleportation Tricks. Beam over to
http://www.geocities.com/area51/cavern/1905/pwrpnt.html
Dave Mattingly
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 09:12:41 -0700
From: Tim Statler <tstatler@igateway.net>
Reply-To: tstatler@igateway.net
Subject: Lost Websites.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
I recently lost my bookmark file and because of that, I lost the
addresses to sites I wanted to mark. I have most of the Champ sites thru
the herogames website. What I need are the addresses for the AD&D to
Hero Conversion page, and the Birthright AD&D to Hero page.
I appreciate any help that I receive.
Thanks
Tim Statler
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 10:01:24 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Restraining powers
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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At 04:00 PM 8/14/97 -0400, Daniel Pawtowski wrote:
>
>Okay, here's a question about something that seems to happen in comics
>alot. An electrical energy projector was captured, and his powers
>restrained by glopping a heavy insulating material over his hands.
>Basicly, a hands-only Entangle with too much Def for him to even think
>about shooting it away.
> The character in question has a straight 10d6 EB in a Multi, along with
>some other misc electrical powers. No limitations on any of them.
>The question is: would the above "trap" actually stop the character
>from using his weaponry, or could he simply start firing lighting
>bolts out his feet/nose/whatever? (This is a 4-color game).
>The character does _normally_ fire bolts from his hands, but there's
>no actual reference to it on the sheet.
> My own call on the matter is that the character can start sneezing
>ten thousand volts out his nose if he feels like it and didn't take
>a limitation saying otherwise.
My take on this is that it's a judgement call. In my own games, I tend
to assume that any power has a "focal point," which for energy projection
Powers is usually but not necessarily the hands. With Oculon, the focal
point is the eyes; with someone else it might be the forehead, the mouth, or
even, as you suggest, the nose.
But this is rather obviously a house rule. As far as I can tell, the
"official" rule is to do what you think fits the genre as you want to
express it.
FWIW, the +1/4 Advantage that someone proposed for being able to project
an energy Power is what I assign as well.
---
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 13:32:08 -0700
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Parasites and Intelligent Costumes
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 12:35 AM 8/15/97 -0400, ErolB1@aol.com wrote:
>This requires "Special GM Permission" (to put a Special Power into a VPP),
>but what about creating a "Multiform-only VPP"?
>
I like! I wouldn't give a limitation on it, since, any other power desired
could be assigned to the multiform create via the VPP.
Very nifty...
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Daniel Pawtowski\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 97 21:31:51
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Restraining powers
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:00:56 -0400 (EDT), Daniel Pawtowski wrote:
>
>Okay, here's a question about something that seems to happen in comics
>alot. An electrical energy projector was captured, and his powers
>restrained by glopping a heavy insulating material over his hands.
>Basicly, a hands-only Entangle with too much Def for him to even think
>about shooting it away.
> The character in question has a straight 10d6 EB in a Multi, along with
>some other misc electrical powers. No limitations on any of them.
>The question is: would the above "trap" actually stop the character
>from using his weaponry, or could he simply start firing lighting
>bolts out his feet/nose/whatever? (This is a 4-color game).
>The character does _normally_ fire bolts from his hands, but there's
>no actual reference to it on the sheet.
> My own call on the matter is that the character can start sneezing
>ten thousand volts out his nose if he feels like it and didn't take
>a limitation saying otherwise.
Hmmm...
Since the EB doesn't have the limitation 'Gestures', surely it's not
going to be affected at all? Plus, it would help if you related the SFX
of the power. Of course, just because the power can work, that doesn't
mean it can get through the Entangle!
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 13:11:06 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: happyelf!! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Embodiments, kind of
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 09:08 PM 8/11/97 -1000, you wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>Hi, all!
>
>IMHOFlag=1
>
> Embodiments of limitless creatures come in two types: the plot
>device, and the opponent. In the first case, they exist to move the story
>forward. E.g., God appears to a group of knights and commands them to seek
>the Grail, or Satan accepts a witch's pledge of loyalty and commands them
>to bear a child to further the Devil's work. In the second case, they exist
>to provide conflict. If an omnipotent antagonist is necessary to the story,
>it is usually wasteful to quantify him. One significant exception is the
>existence of an Achilles' Heel in the adversary. (Smaug's missing scale,
smaug wasn't omnipotent- he had many weaknesses, vanity amongst them..
>the Borg's subspace links,
have you seen first contact? they got their asses kicked fer a whole half hour!
>Skynet's time travel capability, etc.)
how is this a weakness?
>It is
>important to fairly portray the opponent so the vulnerability is credible.
>Ultimately, the HERO System is designed around quantifiable properties.
>Infinite characters are basically unsuitable for such a system. If your
>stories demand participants of that nature, then think about using other
>rules, like Theatrix or FUDGE.
>
>
also, i would argue that any gm who only has one weakness for his baddie is
simply ignoring any strategies the pc's may come up with.
>Til Eulenspiegel
>til_e@aloha.net
>+---------------------------------------+
> PGP Public key available by arrangement
>+---------------------------------------+
>
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
>Charset: noconv
>
>iQA/AwUBM+9/dIJ4fAzAb7AFEQIUDACfaunpkaEEXnhZW4qhO7sODAaWfQUAoIe5
>bQV0eSx5Sgf+41uQ0rFqZ1nl
>=KRuh
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 13:13:56 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: happyelf!! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: hero horror stories
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
how's about: speed drain, cumulative, uncontrolled, 0 end, sticky, continuous. .
actually, the gm made this one up- perfect for capturing heros *eg*
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 13:19:58 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: happyelf!! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Parasites and Intelligent Costumes
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 05:50 PM 8/12/97 -0700, you wrote:
>At 04:30 PM 8/12/97 -0400, Eric Burns wrote:
>>I'm trying to figure out how to implement a character concept, and
>>having wracked my poor, feeble brain against this for a number of days,
>>I shall draw upon the boundless creative energy of this listserv...
>>
>If the character is an NPC villain, then, rewrite its character sheet when
>it takes over a new host, and have a seperate sheet for the blob form.
>
>Or...
>
>Build blobby. Then create a VPP which can be used to skills, stats, etc,
>and has an IIF:Host Body. Since the host's mind is basically nulled by
>Blobby, the host becomes, in effect, a special effect. You build the hosts
>abilities from the VPP.
>
>This is perhaps the only concept Hero doesn't handle easily...I had the
>same problem trying to build a character akin to 'Dial H For Hero' or 'The
>Sleeper' from Wild Cards. It might just be that (gasp!) a new power
>framework is actually needed -- "Serial Form" or, perhaps, a +1 Advantage
>to Multiform, "Can rearrange points in multiform".
>
why not just give the multiform the vpp?
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 13:38:17 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: happyelf!! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: The Champion's GM Corner
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 08:14 AM 8/13/97 +0000, you wrote:
>I was wondering what type of scenarioes people are running out there.
>Are you mainly fighting supervillain teams, single powerful
>villains, or evil organizations capable of sending hundreds of agents
>after your heroes? What kind encounters, and developments do you most
>often use in your campaigns? Are your players ambushed, kidnapped,
>captured, put into death traps, lead into booby traps, or put into moral
>dilemmas. I'm curious how everyone else is running their campaigns,
>and how they plot, and run their adventures.
>
>My preferences are for single powerful villlains able to fight the
>entire team by themselves. The main reason I prefer the lone villain
>is it's easier to keep track of the stun, and the body done to a
>single villain than a host of them. Generally my heroes get the jump
>on the villains responding to an emergency, or investigating a
>crime after the fact. My favourite plot device is the person with
>something to hide. Either they've cooperated in the villainous scheme,
>or they know something dangerous to the villains, and themselves.
>
>Vance Scott
>
>Vanquisher of all foes.
>
i tend to do groups- BUT i don't have an 'all in' fight until the climax,
i prefer to have small skirmishes of a couple each side. .
also, my current storyline calls for this- i've combined the
"thunderbolts" idea with an old superman concept- all the heros'
have scitzoid alter-ego's who think they're gods, and they've been fighting
each other fer months. I've even managed to get them to control these
baddies in fights- we've done this before, but now they are actually controlling
their teamate's alternative forms. *eg*
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 13:52:33 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: happyelf!! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: The Name Game
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 08:25 PM 8/14/97 -0400, you wrote:
>How about Firestrike, Fire Heart, Blaze Hand, Ember Heart, Flame Stroke,
>Immolator, Star Hand.
>Or maybe Heat Stroke, Combustron, Kindling, Burning Zone, Willy Pete.
>
>But why not simply Singe? It's very Asian sounding and could be spelled
>differently.
>
how about "ruby dawn", written in chinese? or at least that's it's translation?
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 00:08:13 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: nexus@uky.campus.mci.net
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net>
Subject: Fuzion PBEM
Cc: kirk@novia.net, psyche@ionsys.com, macross@gol.com, jwe@mpgn.com,
miq@teleport.com, scottg@uky.campus.mci.net, korthmat@pilot.msu.edu,
jhook@salsa.walldata.com, lrichard@minn.net, dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu,
nexus@uky.campus.mci.net, blackwelll@aol.com, ccsmith@comp.uark.edu,
rambler@sowest.net, asahoshi@nr.infi.net, brad@ao.net,
clas@tibalt.supernet.ab.ca, hartjes@globalserve.net,
wbandsis@westco.net, bill-eastman@juno.com, champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
I am planning on starting a Fuzion PBEM. I'll only be using the base
Champs:TNM material (don't have Alliances) and Mekton Zeta and BGC (to
design powersuits and other vehicles). Anyone interested, please respond to
me personally in the next 3 days.
What sick person put an "S" in lisp?
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 00:12:01 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: nexus@uky.campus.mci.net
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net>
Subject: Creation Question
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:17:39
>To: zchampslist
>From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net>
>Subject: Creation Question
>
>I have been stumped on how to create this character for some time.
>
>
>The character itself is an immaterial spirit. It has the power to possess a
host, animal or human fully, completely overriding the creature's mind. The
posseseded remebers nothing while controlled and has no control over its
actions. The thing is, this creature can possess many hosts at once. The
more "powerful" a creature it controls the less of itself is left to control
another host. For example it could control two normal human but only one
paranormal and, say, a dog at once.
>
>Any suggestions?
>
What sick person put an "S" in lisp?
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 15:31:35 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: happyelf!! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: The Champion's GM Corner
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 15:35:42
>To: hero-l@emrald.omg.org
>From: happyelf!! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
>Subject: Re: The Champion's GM Corner
>
>At 10:49 AM 8/15/97 +0000, you wrote:
>>> All of the above. remember, Champs is a super hero RPG. all of the
>>> things you have mentioned are part of "superheroing". The most
>>> important thing to remember is that if the storytelling is no good, the
>>> players lose interest. They do not need a GM to referee a weekly
>>> free-for-all.
>>
>>Agreed.
>>
>
>but note they still should make quite a contribution to the plot:
>
>
>>> I have technique I use which has kept my campaigns fresh. Each player
>>> writes detailed histories of their characters. When they are not saving
>>> the world from my Dr. Doom clone, they are playing in a scenario
>>> specifically for one of the characters. This allows past injustices to
>>> be righted, family problems to be mended, PC lives to change to reflect
>>> new and bought-off Disads. All the time they still get to do their
>>> super heroic duty.
>>
>>I call this keeping a story personal. Raising the stakes, and
>>importance of a scenario is most easily accomplished by making the
>>results of the scenario cause personal loss, or change for your
>>heroes.
>>
>
>also, the players get more involved because they are making more of
>a contribution to the story- instead of reacting(to say a super-menace),
>they are acting in their own "directions"
>
>>> If you have a really moral group of heroes, then
>>> moral dilemmas become a meaningful adventure instead of just a prelude
>>> to villain bashing. I never will forget the 90 min. real time argument
>>> my players had trying to come up with a plan for the heroes to break
>>> into a house and steal a doll from a sleeping six-year-old.
>>
>>That's a good moral dilemma. One story told by a bunch of my
>>friends is about a causal killer, and a player with a code against killing.
>>The killer was about to off the bad guy when the team brick screams
>>out," NOOOoo", and gives ripper (the killer) a hook starting from
>>yesterday. The killer, and the Brick were the most powerful characters
>>on the team, and this led to quite the rivalry.
>>
>
>cool!!! i hope it ended in a full fleged fight? many gm's seem uncomfortable with
>this option. .
>
>>> Variety is the spice of life so mix it up. don't try to box yourself,
>>> and your players into a "formula campaign"
>>
>>I might disagree with the formula's not being useful though. Story
>>formula's are really successful story-lines that have gone stale.
>>A good thing to remember is formula's are like cliches they started out
>>being fresh, and attention grabbing, but through repetition they've
>>become stale, and boring. It's a good idea to keep successful old
>>formulas in mind when you plot your latest story line, but you have
>>to add new elements, and twists to keep your plot fresh.
>>
>
>when it comes down to it, we all use some sort of formula, but i'd
>say it's best to let the Players decide wha their pc's want to do-
>that way, it's not just you making the story. .
>
>>I can't argue with adding variety, but it is possible to go to far, and
>>spoil the campaign's theme, and mood.
>>
>
>i'd say the mood/theme should be not only the setting, but how the
>characters choose to react to the setting- in one game i played,
>the group was basically a generic city super team, until they
>had a really bad defeat- they lost a bunch of hostages, and the players
>did a very good job of role-playing the aftermath, culminating
>in a huge shouting match in which the leader sarcastically sugested
>they take over the city- for it's own good- and the most hot-headed member
>decided it was a good idea.
>
>The suprise was, the "smart guy" pc, who
>was a telepath, later decided to push this idea- by pretending he could sence
>a "consensus" on the idea, from the people of the city. . . .
>the player had basically decided this guy had become very cynical, and had
>decided that the city would bow down, as long as he manipulated the "plebs" properly.
>
>So the leader aquiesed, and the group started undermining the city council, and
>putting out very subtle propoganda to sway the masses- the group got so interested
>in the idea that they even did a bit of research on propoganda and manipulation,
>and generally worked out a very impressive "master plan" to take over the city
>and make it a soverign state.
>
>The point here is that the players drove the plot, and note this was a group i had
>been having problems with constantly before this point. Some of them player their pc's
>as becoming more and more delusional, while others (the leader and the brash dude)
>simply accepted what they were doing, and put thmselves in the hands of fate.
>
>Eventually, they sprung their plot- they had recruited several super-allies by then,
>and enslaved a bunch of brick villans to do 'grunt work". They planned to wait until
>a natural disaster or major villan-attack occured, and "fortunately" a huge storm
>whipped up (actually caused by one of the players in secret) and the "hero's" assumed
>control in the aftermath, neutralising the police, apart from the ones
>they controlled (the leader was a cop).
>
>The plan went well- they took over the city, holding the people hostage,
>but winning them over with luxury, zero crime, and a large dosage
>of psi-assisted hostage syndrome. They were steadily taking control when
>they decided that they'd won- i'd let them do it!! this kinda blew the pc's
>minds (and the players), and all genre went out the window and they planned their next move- this is the point when maybe a firmer hold to keep them in genre would have
>better suited some games, but not this one!! *lol*
>
>It ended up almost like a cult- but group based. They decided that they'd take over the
>new orbital stronghold and use it as the new home for their citizens, porting
>them up useing one of the hero's they'd indoctrinated. By this time the players were basically looking to keep the wierd theme, but find a more stable environment- they
>considered just staying put, but decided the pc's would be too paranoid to trust
>the truce they had with the outside world.
>
>The pc's themselves had obviously by this time become quite different, some dressing
>in finery, the leader resigning as head and becoming boss of the police-
>nazi-style uniforms and judge dreadd style behaviour and all that.
>
>To cut a long story short, they failed. A huge hero- strike team attacked the city,
>wiping out most of the team, to avert the planned nuclear strike. The players were happy with this, amd considered it a good end to the campaign, especially since all the pc's
>got to die in the throes of their own versions of megalomania.
>
>
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 16:53:11 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: happyelf!! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: gm's corner. .
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>At 10:49 AM 8/15/97 +0000, you wrote:
>>> All of the above. remember, Champs is a super hero RPG. all of the
>>> things you have mentioned are part of "superheroing". The most
>>> important thing to remember is that if the storytelling is no good, the
>>> players lose interest. They do not need a GM to referee a weekly
>>> free-for-all.
>>
>>Agreed.
>>
>
>but note they still should make quite a contribution to the plot:
>
>
>>> I have technique I use which has kept my campaigns fresh. Each player
>>> writes detailed histories of their characters. When they are not saving
>>> the world from my Dr. Doom clone, they are playing in a scenario
>>> specifically for one of the characters. This allows past injustices to
>>> be righted, family problems to be mended, PC lives to change to reflect
>>> new and bought-off Disads. All the time they still get to do their
>>> super heroic duty.
>>
>>I call this keeping a story personal. Raising the stakes, and
>>importance of a scenario is most easily accomplished by making the
>>results of the scenario cause personal loss, or change for your
>>heroes.
>>
>
>also, the players get more involved because they are making more of
>a contribution to the story- instead of reacting(to say a super-menace),
>they are acting in their own "directions"
>
>>> If you have a really moral group of heroes, then
>>> moral dilemmas become a meaningful adventure instead of just a prelude
>>> to villain bashing. I never will forget the 90 min. real time argument
>>> my players had trying to come up with a plan for the heroes to break
>>> into a house and steal a doll from a sleeping six-year-old.
>>
>>That's a good moral dilemma. One story told by a bunch of my
>>friends is about a causal killer, and a player with a code against killing.
>>The killer was about to off the bad guy when the team brick screams
>>out," NOOOoo", and gives ripper (the killer) a hook starting from
>>yesterday. The killer, and the Brick were the most powerful characters
>>on the team, and this led to quite the rivalry.
>>
>
>cool!!! i hope it ended in a full fleged fight? many gm's seem uncomfortable with
>this option. .
>
>>> Variety is the spice of life so mix it up. don't try to box yourself,
>>> and your players into a "formula campaign"
>>
>>I might disagree with the formula's not being useful though. Story
>>formula's are really successful story-lines that have gone stale.
>>A good thing to remember is formula's are like cliches they started out
>>being fresh, and attention grabbing, but through repetition they've
>>become stale, and boring. It's a good idea to keep successful old
>>formulas in mind when you plot your latest story line, but you have
>>to add new elements, and twists to keep your plot fresh.
>>
>
>when it comes down to it, we all use some sort of formula, but i'd
>say it's best to let the Players decide wha their pc's want to do-
>that way, it's not just you making the story. .
>
>>I can't argue with adding variety, but it is possible to go to far, and
>>spoil the campaign's theme, and mood.
>>
>
>i'd say the mood/theme should be not only the setting, but how the
>characters choose to react to the setting- in one game i played,
>the group was basically a generic city super team, until they
>had a really bad defeat- they lost a bunch of hostages, and the players
>did a very good job of role-playing the aftermath, culminating
>in a huge shouting match in which the leader sarcastically sugested
>they take over the city- for it's own good- and the most hot-headed member
>decided it was a good idea.
>
>The suprise was, the "smart guy" pc, who
>was a telepath, later decided to push this idea- by pretending he could sence
>a "consensus" on the idea, from the people of the city. . . .
>the player had basically decided this guy had become very cynical, and had
>decided that the city would bow down, as long as he manipulated the "plebs" properly.
>
>So the leader aquiesed, and the group started undermining the city council, and
>putting out very subtle propoganda to sway the masses- the group got so interested
>in the idea that they even did a bit of research on propoganda and manipulation,
>and generally worked out a very impressive "master plan" to take over the city
>and make it a soverign state.
>
>The point here is that the players drove the plot, and note this was a group i had
>been having problems with constantly before this point. Some of them player their pc's
>as becoming more and more delusional, while others (the leader and the brash dude)
>simply accepted what they were doing, and put thmselves in the hands of fate.
>
>Eventually, they sprung their plot- they had recruited several super-allies by then,
>and enslaved a bunch of brick villans to do 'grunt work". They planned to wait until
>a natural disaster or major villan-attack occured, and "fortunately" a huge storm
>whipped up (actually caused by one of the players in secret) and the "hero's" assumed
>control in the aftermath, neutralising the police, apart from the ones
>they controlled (the leader was a cop).
>
>The plan went well- they took over the city, holding the people hostage,
>but winning them over with luxury, zero crime, and a large dosage
>of psi-assisted hostage syndrome. They were steadily taking control when
>they decided that they'd won- i'd let them do it!! this kinda blew the pc's
>minds (and the players), and all genre went out the window and they planned their next move- this is the point when maybe a firmer hold to keep them in genre would have
>better suited some games, but not this one!! *lol*
>
>It ended up almost like a cult- but group based. They decided that they'd take over the
>new orbital stronghold and use it as the new home for their citizens, porting
>them up useing one of the hero's they'd indoctrinated. By this time the players were basically looking to keep the wierd theme, but find a more stable environment- they
>considered just staying put, but decided the pc's would be too paranoid to trust
>the truce they had with the outside world.
>
>The pc's themselves had obviously by this time become quite different, some dressing
>in finery, the leader resigning as head and becoming boss of the police-
>nazi-style uniforms and judge dreadd style behaviour and all that.
>
>To cut a long story short, they failed. A huge hero- strike team attacked the city,
>wiping out most of the team, to avert the planned nuclear strike. The players were happy with this, amd considered it a good end to the campaign, especially since all the pc's
>got to die in the throes of their own versions of megalomania.
>
>
>
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: Re: Parasites and Intelligent Costumes
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 13:50:58 -0400 (EDT)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> >Build blobby. Then create a VPP which can be used to skills, stats, etc,
> >and has an IIF:Host Body. Since the host's mind is basically nulled by
> >Blobby, the host becomes, in effect, a special effect. You build the hosts
> >abilities from the VPP.
> >
> >This is perhaps the only concept Hero doesn't handle easily...I had the
> >same problem trying to build a character akin to 'Dial H For Hero' or 'The
> >Sleeper' from Wild Cards. It might just be that (gasp!) a new power
> >framework is actually needed -- "Serial Form" or, perhaps, a +1 Advantage
> >to Multiform, "Can rearrange points in multiform".
> >
>
>
> why not just give the multiform the vpp?
>
Isn't it illegal to put skills, characteristics, or special powers in a VPP?
-Eric
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 14:44:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Champions Genre Selection
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Mon, 11 Aug 1997 jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
> >Because it isn't necessary. A peasant character _could_ have very well
> >worked in the game - provided that the player is aware of the restrictions,
> >limitations and dangers a peasant faces in ancient Japanese society - and
> >the consequences of his actions. I can't help but wonder if the PC in
> >question thought that the samurai would _never_ off him just because he was
> >a PC (heh - this is samurai drama. PCs will off _themselves_ at the drop of
> >a hat. "We've failed!" <samurai looks thoughtfully at his wakizashi...>).
>
> funny, i get the feeling noone ever died but farmboy. .
Nope. Farmboy never died. After the Player dropped out, he just faded
away to window dressing.
And, to tell the truth, I didn't think about hacking down the farmer until
several days later.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 15:12:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Champions Genre Selection
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Trevor Barrie wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Aug 1997 j.ward18@genie.com wrote:
> > The Samurai were "playing in character" lording the peasant around but
> > then they failed to stop other samurai from doing something because they
> > knew they would get their clocks cleaned.
>
> Which seems reasonable, given that the poster has said it was more of a
> realistic than cinematic campaign. But of course he also said that this
> wasn't the primary reason.
Correct. The situation was one of 'moral dilemma'. The Players *knew*
what we were seeing was for all intents a senselss slaughter, but we
restrained by the fact that the samurai were administrating 'justice'
according to the tenants of the local daimyo.
> > Since they a) cheesily let the villains go
>
> You're conveniently ignoring the fact that the "villains" were perfectly
> within their rights to do what they did.
Correct again. (See above).
The situations presented did cause some discussion and consterantion
among the PCs. We knew these guys were bad (one of the PCs had made his
'KS' roll and recognized them as the "(name) brothers, three evil and
black hearted ronin". But this wasn't our village and these weren't our
people, we had no legal right to interfere. We also had other, more
pressing business else where we had to worry about.
> > and b) didn't give seppuku a thought,
>
> You know this how, exactly? Some sort of funky postcognitive telepathy
> that works through e-mail?
And why would we all commit seppuku? We didn't fail in anything our lord
had ordered. By not reacting we may have felt shame inwardly, but we
hadn't done anything to loose 'face' in suce a way that our lord would
require use to kill ourselves.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 23:53:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Building Heroic-scale Weapons
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Michael Cugley wrote:
> I'm involved in converting an AD&D background (Dark Sun) to Hero, and
> I've got a list of weapon stats to convert. Most of the stats are
> fairly easy; about the only one I'm not sure of is OCV bonus. What
> sorts of weapons should get an OCV bonus or penalty? Looking at the
> weapons chart isn't much help; I can't, off the top of my head see why
> falchions and daggers gets a +1 while scimitars and dirks don't. Any
> thoughts? The weapons are all fairly exotic, so it's not just a case of
> using the Hero versions...
My group has done some work on rewriting the STR mins damage and OCV
bonuses for an assortment of weapons. One of the stand rules is that no
weapon gets an OCV bonus, *except* weapons that are hard to block, or that
are very light and thus, very fast.
So, foils, sabers and rapiers get an OCV bonus, but a dagger would not.
If you want further details and notes, e-mail me direct.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 10:55 AM