Week Ending September 6, 1997
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 11:19:13 +1000
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Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
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At 11:51 AM 8/30/97 -0700, you wrote:
>At 12:48 PM 8/30/97 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>> How do other GMs handle Drains (or Transfers) that take a characters
>>stats to or below zero? Personally, I use the Negative Characteristics
>>rules in the old Champions III book, but I'd be interested in your comments.
>
>Also, if you drain someone to -BODY, can I safely assume they are dead, and
>they won't "recover" later? Drains simulate some forms of potentially fatal
>spells better than KA do in my FH campaigns.
>
I'd say if they get to negative their own body they die, otherwise normal point
recovery rates occur. ..
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From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 11:21:52 +1000
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Subject: Re: 4 color principles
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At 10:57 PM 8/30/97 +0000, you wrote:
>
>
>Supers often seem to have jobs, but they seem to not be as dedicated to them as
>normals.
>
>
>
>
hows about hank mcoy, and various other 'almost scientists?'
i remember spidey almost quitting several times because he wanted to 'grow up'
and study properly, fer instance. . ...
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From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 11:22:40 +1000
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Subject: Re: GM's corner - plot hooks
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At 11:05 PM 8/30/97 +0000, you wrote:
>
>
>Possible plot hook, it has been used before.
>
>IS the old standard, your character has been watched from birth, by two sides
>of a conflict. And You have finally reached the age where you have to make a
>choice of which side you will be on. Both sides are "good" just different.
>
>
>
or both sides are evil, just subtle... . .
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From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 20:34:04 -0700
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Subject: Re: 4 color principles
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Michael Adams wrote:
> Supers often seem to have jobs, but they seem to not be as dedicated
> to them as
> normals.
OK
--
Rook
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Also, check out the new version of Villians & Vigilantes at
http://illusionmachines.com/personal/jeff/vandv.html
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From: "Tivaak" <Tivaak@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 22:44:40 -0500
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Subject: Re: 4 color principles
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<snip>
> >Supers often seem to have jobs, but they seem to not be as dedicated to
them as
> >normals.
Has anyone used the book Supertemps (for GURPS Supers), which seems to
address the issue of "real" world jobs for supers in a campaign? I know
this is a Champions list, but this book really seems to be appropriate. I
don't have the book myself, but it is mentioned a few times in the second
edition of GURPS Supers, which itself attempts to deal with the whole issue
of "realism" in a 4-color universe.i am not interested in starting or
reading a long threat on why one or the other system is better. I like to
use elements of all the supers systems and settings i can find as i believe
all of them have useful things to offer. In regards to this thread, i find
that GURPS Supers, and perhaps Supertemps might offer some interesting
ideas and insights.
That is, how many "supers" choose not to be heroes in the traditional comic
sense, but instead use their powers for profit, or humanitarian pursuits
without the glory of blasting the villian into the next day's headlines.
though it makes for an interesting background, i have to wonder how long a
campaign centered upon the more mundane aspects of supers life would last.
Then again, such a choice could result in a kind of Wildcards styled
universe, where supers are arranged into a near caste-like system of power
and the use of their powers, for good, evil, profit, just getting by, or
hiding from the scorn or even outright persecution for who and what they
are.
Just some thoughts on a very interesting thread.
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 14:42:48 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
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>*me*> How do other GMs handle Drains (or Transfers) that take a
>*me*> characters stats to or below zero?
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
>Simply put, they cannot.
>
>Adjustment powers operate on active points. Once you have reduced a power
>or characteristic to 0 active points there are no more to affect. Thus, in
>general they cannot be adjusted below 0.
>
Well, Drain says, "The total remaining (on the Drain dice, after Power
Defense) is the number of Active Points lost from the affected Power or
Characteristic." (BBB, p.64)
But it doesn't say you can't take away more than you had. There are
these things, Rat, called negative numbers. I know you've dealt with them,
otherwise your characters couldn't die or kill. I understand it if you are
saying your ruling is that CHA can't drop to or below zero because of the
part of the BBB that says you can't sell 'em back to that point.
Do you allow Drains v. BODY to drop BODY to or below zero? How do you
justify that?
Jerry
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Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 18:08:45 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
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> That's an interesting statement. Especially since I have two sets of
>published rules saying whatto do when you drain below 0. One from
>2nd-3rd edition. The other from 4th edition.
> Guess the rulebooks were wrong then...
>
> On the other hand, for those of us that use the rulebooks as our
>guide, you can find rules for this
>situation in two places.
>2nd-3rd edition: Champions III, page 52
>4th edition: Hero System Almanac I, page 14
>
>
>--
>Rook
Are there any differences between the old (Champions III) rules and
the 4th ed (Hero System Almanac I)? I only have Champs III, passed down
from my 9-years-elder brother. Actually, I own more of pre-4th books than I
do 4th.
Jerry
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Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 18:18:09 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
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Stainless Steel Rat said:
>I have three apples. You try to take five from me but you can only get
>three because that is all I have.
>
But if I have the number 3 and I subtract 5, I get negative 2. One
could argue that negative amounts of Active Points in a power simply make
the power act as if it were zero Active points. Because it would be
nonsensical to throw around a -3d6 Energy Blast.
This is, btw, how I run Drains or Transfers. If you have negative
active points, it normally counts as zero, but would take more time to
recover, see?
>JD> Do you allow Drains v. BODY to drop BODY to or below zero? How do you
>JD> justify that?
>
>No, I do not. Most Characteristics, including Body, have a minimum value
>of 1. Below that is nonsensical, as I mentioned in another post. If you
>wish to break or kill something, use a Killing Attack.
>
Okay, but I think maybe you are now contradicting yourself. Either
I can take away that last point (or last two points, for BODY) because you
have it, or I can't. If you have one Body (two apples) and I try and take
one away... well, before you said I could, here you say I can't>
Honestly, I think that your version of the argument is a fairly
strict, by the book (the BBB, actually), rules interpretation. I can't
really argue against it as such. My original question was to see how others
ran their games. You've let me know. So, thanks Rat.
Do you run Champs, or play, or both? I was curious if you had
played under anyone who ran it differently. The reason I originally asked
the question was because I am the only one in my group who runs the game,
and I was the one who taught everyone else the rules. Well, thanks again
for the attention to my posts.
Jerry
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 07:18:22 -0600
From: Curtis Gibson <Mhoram@apeleon.net>
Subject: Re: 4 color principles
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Tivaak wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > >Supers often seem to have jobs, but they seem to not be as dedicated to
> them as
> > >normals.
>
> Has anyone used the book Supertemps (for GURPS Supers), which seems to
> address the issue of "real" world jobs for supers in a campaign? I know
> this is a Champions list, but this book really seems to be appropriate. I
> don't have the book myself, but it is mentioned a few times in the second
> edition of GURPS Supers, which itself attempts to deal with the whole issue
> of "realism" in a 4-color universe.
I use Gurps Supers (converted of course). The concept is very workable.
Part of my campaign background is that there are a lot of 40-75 pt
'supers' around. The kind that aren't powerfull enough to get involved
in the spandex crowd even if they have the inclination. A lot of them
joined together and formed Supertemps IMC. The background, and color
from this works very well.
> That is, how many "supers" choose not to be heroes in the traditional comic
> sense, but instead use their powers for profit, or humanitarian pursuits
> without the glory of blasting the villian into the next day's headlines.
> Just some thoughts on a very interesting thread.
One of the more interesting scenes I ever played out, before a slightly
bewildered GM; I was running a dimensional travelling Knight (jedi
style). She was wandering downtown and saw one of the rescue missions
and just sort of slipped in, used her powers as well as her hands and
did all thier dishes and cleaned up the place overnight.
That later became sort of a character schtick. She never took credit for
doing these little things. The effect on the character was to make her
more human, as she made a point of doing this sort of thing without the
glory, and kept her in contact with 'the normals society' without it
being tied to her 'combat' plots.
--
-Mhoram
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your
two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "JD" == Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> writes:
JD> How do other GMs handle Drains (or Transfers) that take a
JD> characters stats to or below zero?
Simply put, they cannot.
Adjustment powers operate on active points. Once you have reduced a power
or characteristic to 0 active points there are no more to affect. Thus, in
general they cannot be adjusted below 0.
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From: John Doe <juan@henge.com>
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 09:18:03 -0600
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Subject: Re: 4 color principles
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At 10:44 PM 8/30/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Has anyone used the book Supertemps (for GURPS Supers), which seems to
>address the issue of "real" world jobs for supers in a campaign? I know
>this is a Champions list, but this book really seems to be appropriate. I
>don't have the book myself, but it is mentioned a few times in the second
>edition of GURPS Supers, which itself attempts to deal with the whole issue
>of "realism" in a 4-color universe.i am not interested in starting or
>reading a long threat on why one or the other system is better. I like to
>use elements of all the supers systems and settings i can find as i believe
>all of them have useful things to offer. In regards to this thread, i find
>that GURPS Supers, and perhaps Supertemps might offer some interesting
>ideas and insights.
>
I have owned Supertemps in the past, but gave it away to a kid when I had a
chance to help someone else "get started" doing superheroic stuff. IMHO,
the book isn't that great for serious superstuff. It's more like Damage
Control from DC or the wackier moments for Heroes for Hire (the old one -
the new one sounds a little TOO serious) when they ran a comedy issue.
The idea itself is pretty good. I just didn't find the book workable.
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From: John Doe <juan@henge.com>
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 09:18:06 -0600
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Subject: Re: Champions books, short reviews?
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These reviews may well be inaccurate. I no long own most of these.
>> Champs Universe
Has a timeline and background for the entire universe, as well as updating
several of the villains. It was nice to have for knowing how "official"
things were supposed to go, but my campaigns have never been champions-world.
>>Olympians,
The ancient gods return, and it turns out they were merely superpowerful
space aliens. (Chariots of the Ancient Gods indeed!) I found this a
middling to poor supplement. If you want an interesting group with some
mythic overtones, I think the Zodiac Conspiracy (led by _the_ Minotaur) is
much better.
>> Golden Age,
I have the old one of these. A +GREAT+ book for the goofy, nicer feel of
the war comics. Good guys wear RW, and B! Bad guys have no redeeming
qualities, except the few who are "mostly-bad guys" and will reform by the
end of the campaign. I'm not sure what might have changed in the new book.
>> Invasions: Target Earth
Eh. Lotsa space aliens. Not too great.
>> Dark Champions.
Fantastic look at street-level playing. A little too punisher for me,
child of the Silver Age. Great read and good ideas for all supers genres,
though. I'd say buy Universe for the timeline, and buy this one next.
John
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 18:12:51 +0000
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
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On 31 Aug 97 at 17:41, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> >>>>> "EK" == Earl Kwallek <earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us> writes:
>
> EK> Ummm, if this is true, then it is impossible to drain:
>
> EK> 1) Any Primary Characteristic below 10.
> EK> 2) Any Secondary Characteristic below base value.
> EK> [etcetera]
>
> Both primary and secondary characteristics may be "sold" off from their
> starting or calculated base values.
Thereby creating negative cost. They cost negative active points.
> The net result for the character is
> that he has gets more points to use elsewhere, to the detriment of his
> characteristics. However, most cannot be sold below 1: having a 0 Body or
> 0 Stun as the normal level is nonsensical.
Characteristics which are being drained are by definition not at
normal level.
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 18:12:51 +0000
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
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On 31 Aug 97 at 10:57, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> >>>>> "JD" == Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> writes:
>
> JD> How do other GMs handle Drains (or Transfers) that take a
> JD> characters stats to or below zero?
>
> Simply put, they cannot.
>
> Adjustment powers operate on active points. Once you have reduced a power
> or characteristic to 0 active points there are no more to affect. Thus, in
> general they cannot be adjusted below 0.
Champions III allowed it, with an excellent negative characteristic
chart. The entire thing, almost unchanged, has been ported into 4th
Ed., via the Hero System Almanac I.
Even without those rules, I would use it as a way of Draining a
person for a longer time, by slowing recovery.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 18:12:51 +0000
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
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> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> >>>>> "JD" == Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> writes:
>
> JD> Well, Drain says, "The total remaining (on the Drain dice, after Power
> JD> Defense) is the number of Active Points lost from the affected Power or
> JD> Characteristic." (BBB, p.64)
>
> Exactly.
>
> JD> But it doesn't say you can't take away more than you had.
>
> I have three apples. You try to take five from me but you can only get
> three because that is all I have.
>
> [...]
>
> JD> Do you allow Drains v. BODY to drop BODY to or below zero? How do you
> JD> justify that?
>
> No, I do not. Most Characteristics, including Body, have a minimum value
> of 1. Below that is nonsensical, as I mentioned in another post. If you
> wish to break or kill something, use a Killing Attack.
Except that Drain is used to create lethal attacks for a number of
characters scattered across a number of books, none of whom are
described as using optional rules.
Additionally, the optional rules mention both Body and Stun as
characteristics that can _already_ be drained below zero, in the
present system. Finally, a negative STR has had meaning since the
second edition (4th Ed, too) - even at zero, you can still lift
25kg, and it describes what happens if you have less than zero.
So, even if the rules in the Hero System Almanac are optional, and
the Champs III rules are obsolete, there is still good reason to
believe that Drain can drain Body and Stun, at least, below zero.
You have made mention to Active Points several times, and have based
your arguments on the idea that active points cannot be negative. The
example you used was apples. However, active points are an
abstraction, and as such are not subject to rules applying only to
physical objects. I can owe someone an apple, thus creating negative
apples. It is an abstraction, true, but so are active points.
Otherwise, a normal man with only 10 STUN would not have a negative
cost on that reduced stun.
You might keep in mind that, if Drain has no ability to create
negatives because active points can't be negative, then Aid cannot
save dying characters, either. Aid affects active points, too.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 18:12:51 +0000
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
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On 30 Aug 97 at 14:57, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
> At 11:51 AM 8/30/97 -0700, Lizard wrote:
> >At 12:48 PM 8/30/97 +0600, *I* wrote:
> >> How do other GMs handle Drains (or Transfers) that take a characters
> >>stats to or below zero? Personally, I use the Negative Characteristics
> >>rules in the old Champions III book, but I'd be interested in your comments.
The negative characteristics rules from Champions III are virtually
identical to the rules in the Hero System Almanac I. Those are the
ones I use.
> >Also, if you drain someone to -BODY, can I safely assume they are dead, and
> >they won't "recover" later? Drains simulate some forms of potentially fatal
> >spells better than KA do in my FH campaigns.
He will die if he reaches -BODY total, thus, if he starts at 10 BODY,
he dies at -10 BODY. The negative characteristic rules in
the Almanac state that this is unchanged. However, your GM might a)
have a different view, and b) he might be resusitatable, if your GM
prefers, particularly with advanced technology, magic, or
superpowers, as there is no actual injury.
> I thought of this, too. I think that's the way it works. If you have a
> BODY of 1, you die when you reach -1. If you have a BODY of 0, you die when
> you reach the negative of zero... Hey, you're already there!
Absolutely _not_. Drains don't remove the characteristic, they
subtract points in a manner similar to a killing attack, save that
they return quickly and can be taken from any characteristic. If a
man has 10 BODY, and you Drain him to zero, he is still alive until
he reaches -10 BODY. The Drain does not change this at all.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 18:12:51 +0000
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers
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On 28 Aug 97 at 11:00, Vance Scott wrote:
> > - Don't be afraid to 'cheat' to make the game more fun for you AND your
> > players
>
> Here I happen to disagree with you. Those times the GM has cheated in
> favour of my character, or against my character I've been
> disappointed. When the GM cheats in my favour I feel like the risk,
> and excitement of the game disappears. When the GM cheats against
> my character I feel my decisions, and actions have become pointless.
> My characters actions should play an important role in the success,
> or failure of an adventure. I think it is perfectly fine for the heroes to
> fail in their quest now, and then. Let's remember that a champions
> campaign is a collection of many adventures. The heroes will get
> another shot at the bad guys, and maybe the chance to undo the bad
> guy's plans. I realize that there are moments where chance, or player
> thick headedness can derail a story line. What I advocate is
> manipulation of events to fix plot derailment. The GM's power to
> control the actions of the world should be enough to prod the story
> line back on the track you'd intended. The GM must be careful not to
> erode the player power to determine their own success, or failure.
> There may come a time where you should let a player's character die,
> fail, or succeed. The fact that the story is in flux, and it's
> outcome is uncertain is one of the things that separate roleplaying
> from writing stories. Whether you're fudging dice rolls, or
> manipulating the events of the story you must remember that the
> player shouldn't realize what you're doing.
Actually, I think changing the universe in order to force a storyline
back on track is considered cheating by many people. It may be
necessary or usefull, but you are deliberately changing the universe
to get what you want- cheating, by many standards.
I had a group once who consisted of a wizard who was the former Royal
Court wizard and was now a refugee in hiding, the young prince who he
was hiding and was believed to have killed, and a thief they acquired
along the way. The group ran into an old friend of the wizard, who
told them that his castle had been appropriated by the Regent's
wizard, and his daughter kidnapped as a hostage and spelled so as to
make her think everything was normal. Additionally, talking to the
locals near the castle would get them caught, because of spies and
the fact that all locals feared the wizard so much they would turn
them in.
The players bought this so thoroughly that I was forced to beef up
the garrison of the castle about 3 times over, and move the garrison
into position faster than horses could run, in order to force the
characters into a position that allowed them to discover that they
were in fact duped by the Regent's wizard, who had spotted them and
used a Shapeshifting disguise spell to fool them.
This is cheating. I changed the castle and allowed NPCs to do
impossible things, in order to prevent a disaster which would
probably included a poisoned victory feast, as I was playing the
enemy as too smart to do all the stupid things that Evil Overlords do
that get them beaten in the end.
Cheating doesn't mean just changing the results of dice, cheating is
much broader than that.
I might also point out that certain skills and even plain old
perception on the part of the players would have prevented the
adventure from even beginning. This would be a good time to cheat,
not when the players need it to win, but when a bad die roll or
forgotten power will destroy a scenario. Entire campaigns can be
ruined this way.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
X-Sender: wabbit@globaldialog.com (Unverified)
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 13:33:36 -0500
From: Earl Kwallek <earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us>
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 10:57 AM 8/31/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>JD> How do other GMs handle Drains (or Transfers) that take a
>JD> characters stats to or below zero?
>
>Simply put, they cannot.
>
>Adjustment powers operate on active points. Once you have reduced a power
>or characteristic to 0 active points there are no more to affect. Thus, in
>general they cannot be adjusted below 0.
Ummm, if this is true, then it is impossible to drain:
1) Any Primary Characteristic below 10.
2) Any Secondary Characteristic below base value.
3) Any characteristic to which the Player did NOT add points
(ie: if my STUN calced out at 70 and I think thats enough
and didn't raise it - you couldn't drain my stun - even
if I did raise it, by your argument, you can only drain it
down to 70 - the base value)
Earl Kwallek - Earl@TheWarren.Mil.Wi.US
A Man with a gun is a citizen;
a man without a gun is a subject.
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 12:10:48 -0700
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 10:57 AM 8/31/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "JD" == Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> writes:
>
>JD> How do other GMs handle Drains (or Transfers) that take a
>JD> characters stats to or below zero?
>
>Simply put, they cannot.
>
Uhm...no. The introduction to the original 'Negative Characteristics' rules
states, "Due to Power Drains, Trnasfers, or Attacks, a character may end up
with negative characteristics..."
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 14:29:51 -0700
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Reply-To: rook@infinex.com
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
I think I sent this this morning to the wrong address:
> JD> How do other GMs handle Drains (or Transfers) that take a
> JD> characters stats to or below zero?
>
> Simply put, they cannot.
>
> Adjustment powers operate on active points. Once you have reduced a
> power
> or characteristic to 0 active points there are no more to affect.
> Thus, in
> general they cannot be adjusted below 0.
>
That's an interesting statement. Especially since I have two sets of
published rules saying whatto do when you drain below 0. One from
2nd-3rd edition. The other from 4th edition.
Guess the rulebooks were wrong then...
On the other hand, for those of us that use the rulebooks as our
guide, you can find rules for this
situation in two places.
2nd-3rd edition: Champions III, page 52
4th edition: Hero System Almanac I, page 14
--
Rook
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Also, check out the new version of Villians & Vigilantes at
http://illusionmachines.com/personal/jeff/vandv.html
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
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Date: 31 Aug 1997 17:41:50 -0400
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>>>>> "EK" == Earl Kwallek <earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us> writes:
EK> Ummm, if this is true, then it is impossible to drain:
EK> 1) Any Primary Characteristic below 10.
EK> 2) Any Secondary Characteristic below base value.
EK> [etcetera]
Both primary and secondary characteristics may be "sold" off from their
starting or calculated base values. The net result for the character is
that he has gets more points to use elsewhere, to the detriment of his
characteristics. However, most cannot be sold below 1: having a 0 Body or
0 Stun as the normal level is nonsensical.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 31 Aug 1997 17:47:36 -0400
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>>>>> "JD" == Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> writes:
JD> Well, Drain says, "The total remaining (on the Drain dice, after Power
JD> Defense) is the number of Active Points lost from the affected Power or
JD> Characteristic." (BBB, p.64)
Exactly.
JD> But it doesn't say you can't take away more than you had.
I have three apples. You try to take five from me but you can only get
three because that is all I have.
[...]
JD> Do you allow Drains v. BODY to drop BODY to or below zero? How do you
JD> justify that?
No, I do not. Most Characteristics, including Body, have a minimum value
of 1. Below that is nonsensical, as I mentioned in another post. If you
wish to break or kill something, use a Killing Attack.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 31 Aug 1997 17:49:24 -0400
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>>>>> "L" == Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> writes:
L> Uhm...no. The introduction to the original 'Negative Characteristics'
L> rules states, "Due to Power Drains, Trnasfers, or Attacks, a character
L> may end up with negative characteristics..."
Yes, rules that are not in any printing of the fourth edition hardcover
Champions book, nor in the fourth edition softcover Champions book, nor the
softcover Hero System Rulesbook. They exist in the third edition, but that
is not the fourth edition. They exist in the Hero System Almanac #1, which
is 100% optional, variant rules, not part of the core rules set.
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Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 21:08:07 -0400
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org>
Subject: Is there a need for SPD?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> How necessary is the SPD attribute in champions? To me, it only seems
> to slow down combat and remove a lot of "realism" from the game (not
> that I'm a fan of realism in an RPG).
I won't debate the 'realism' side; I think a case can be made on either side.
Otherwise: many people have thrown out the SPD stat (or make everyone be the
same SPD). If you're looking to simplify Hero combat, this is certainly a good
way to do it. I'd say give it a try: if your group doesn't feel the loss, more
power to you.
(Personally, I find it useful, although I use per-Turn movement rules as
well.)
Geoff Speare
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 07:20:03 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>JD> Stainless Steel Rat said:
>>> I have three apples. You try to take five from me but you can only get
>>> three because that is all I have.
>
>JD> But if I have the number 3 and I subtract 5, I get negative 2.
>
>We are not discussing abstract numbers, we are discussing concrete
>quantities. But just to play Devil's advocate here for a moment and take
>this to the absurd extreme....
>
>Say you do Drain me down to -15 points of Energy Blast. That is -3D6 worth
>of EB, doing an average of -3 Body and -10 Stun. Great! you just turned my
>Energy Blast into healing variant Aid! So, can I "sell" off 60 points of
>Energy Blast, giving myself -12D6 of EB, and use that normally?
>
>You cannot treat 0 as a kind of effect inversion layer.
>
Rat, you ignorant slut...
You are doing it again. You cut out the bit of my argument that
basically said what you said, and warped it so that I look the fool. Here's
what I put, originally.
"But if I have the number 3 and I subtract 5, I get negative 2. One
could argue that negative amounts of Active Points in a power simply make
the power act as if it were zero Active points. Because it would be
nonsensical to throw around a -3d6 Energy Blast."
You swiped my example and turned it on me. I went on to say that
was how I played it anyway, and I even agreed to a few of your points.
And we are expressing abstracts. It's a game _system_ based off a
number _system_... And don't say it's based on a realistic world either, or
I'll zap you with my Energy Blast... : )
>Whether characteristics can be drained to 1 or 0 is largely a GM's
>judgement call. The only guidelines are that in the description of
>Characteristics it is stated that one may not sell Characteristics below 1,
>and in Drain that it affects Active Points.
>
Well... Either I can't Drain past one (because the book says so) or
I can Drain to zero (because you still have "quantitative" Active points
left, and you say that's the way to do it). Which one is it, Rat? Do you
stick by the book and contradict your earlier argument, or do you go against
published rules (which seems like that's a sin, at least to you)?
>Adjustment powers should not be directly lethal; that stomps all over
>Killing Attack. Adjusting a thing to 0 Body would render it about as dead
>as can be -- and that is the intent of doing so. Thus, I lean towards 1 as
>a minimum for characteristic adjustments and recomend that if you want a
>disintegrator gun you buy a big Killing Attack instead.
Well, that was a question I had expressed, too. But others told me
the (optional) rules state that the "normal level" of Body is what you base
death off of. Thank you for expressing your opinions, as they were
solicitated and I find them interesting (if frustrating, the way you express
yourself).
Jerry
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 12:06:43 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 09:08 PM 8/31/97 -0400, you wrote:
>> How necessary is the SPD attribute in champions? To me, it only seems
>> to slow down combat and remove a lot of "realism" from the game (not
>> that I'm a fan of realism in an RPG).
>
>I won't debate the 'realism' side; I think a case can be made on either side.
>
>Otherwise: many people have thrown out the SPD stat (or make everyone be the
>same SPD). If you're looking to simplify Hero combat, this is certainly a good
>way to do it. I'd say give it a try: if your group doesn't feel the loss, more
>power to you.
>
>(Personally, I find it useful, although I use per-Turn movement rules as
>well.)
>
>Geoff Speare
>
hows about just having 'actions' equal to speed, like # of attacks? when someone wants an action, whoever has the highest number of actions left gos, dex deciding ties?
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 19:50:46 -0700
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Reply-To: rook@infinex.com
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> > That's an interesting statement. Especially since I have two sets
> of
> >published rules saying whatto do when you drain below 0. One from
> >2nd-3rd edition. The other from 4th edition.
> > Guess the rulebooks were wrong then...
> >
> > On the other hand, for those of us that use the rulebooks as our
> >guide, you can find rules for this
> >situation in two places.
> >2nd-3rd edition: Champions III, page 52
> >4th edition: Hero System Almanac I, page 14
>
> Are there any differences between the old (Champions III)
> rules and
> the 4th ed (Hero System Almanac I)? I only have Champs III, passed
> down
> from my 9-years-elder brother. Actually, I own more of pre-4th books
> than I
> do 4th.
Hmm... I'd have to look, but I don't think so. However I recommend
Almanac anyway. It has a lot
of other useful stuff as well.
Go to your local store and see if you can look inside the shrink
wrap.
Both the Almanac's are worth it.
--
Rook
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Also, check out the new version of Villians & Vigilantes at
http://illusionmachines.com/personal/jeff/vandv.html
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 19:52:24 -0700
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 05:47 PM 8/31/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>No, I do not. Most Characteristics, including Body, have a minimum value
>of 1. Below that is nonsensical, as I mentioned in another post. If you
>wish to break or kill something, use a Killing Attack.
>
But KA don't model certain effects very well. Fantasy and Comics are filled
with "Now, your life shall become mine, and I shall toss away the lifeless
husk you shall become! Bwahahahah!" Further, KA is resisted by armor and
defenses...this isn't a good way to model, say, a rust power, which would
almost by definition not be resisted by the BODY/DEF of a metal wall, since
it's the metal itself which is being attacked. It's illogical to have a
rust attack need to overcome DEF.
NND KA's could do these as well, but they don't allow for recovery, which
is also a feature of certain attack concepts. ("Curses! Now that's he
blocked my leech ray, his strength will quickly return!")
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 13:12:50 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 07:52 PM 8/31/97 -0700, you wrote:
>But KA don't model certain effects very well. Fantasy and Comics are filled
>with "Now, your life shall become mine, and I shall toss away the lifeless
>husk you shall become! Bwahahahah!" Further, KA is resisted by armor and
>defenses...this isn't a good way to model, say, a rust power, which would
>almost by definition not be resisted by the BODY/DEF of a metal wall, since
>it's the metal itself which is being attacked. It's illogical to have a
>rust attack need to overcome DEF.
>
>NND KA's could do these as well, but they don't allow for recovery, which
>is also a feature of certain attack concepts. ("Curses! Now that's he
>blocked my leech ray, his strength will quickly return!")
>
i would vote for a drain 'teamed' (i don't want any more demerits)
with a kill attack- and i agree it is always better not to limit concepts like this-
just in case such a concept fits the power well. .
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 20:49:43 -0700
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Reply-To: rook@infinex.com
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Filksinger wrote:
> On 28 Aug 97 at 11:00, Vance Scott wrote:
>
> > > - Don't be afraid to 'cheat' to make the game more fun for you
> AND your
> > > players
> >
> > Here I happen to disagree with you. Those times the GM has cheated
> in
> > favour of my character, or against my character I've been
> > disappointed. When the GM cheats in my favour I feel like the risk,
> > and excitement of the game disappears. When the GM cheats against
> > my character I feel my decisions, and actions have become pointless.
>
>
> Actually, I think changing the universe in order to force a storyline
> back on track is considered cheating by many people. It may be
> necessary or usefull, but you are deliberately changing the universe
> to get what you want- cheating, by many standards.
>
> Cheating doesn't mean just changing the results of dice, cheating is
> much broader than that.
>
Hmm....
There was a great debate on this issue, which might still be going
on, on rec.games.frp.advocacy
They basically divided it all down to three styles of GMing, then made a
chart to list where people stood
I think it was something like this:
Dramatacism - play for the plot
Gamism - play for the game
Simulationism - play to simulate the world
The chart was something like this:
G
/\
/ \
/ \
/ \
/ \
/ \
/ \
D ----------------- S
The idea here is to place your GMing style on the chart somewhere.
A Gamism GM would not cheat for the story or world
A Dramaticism GM would do anything to make the plot go the way 'it
should'
A Simulationism GM would do anything to keep the world consistant and
running itself.
I find myself near the middle of all these concerns...
But every GM has diferent style and feel for what matters.
--
Rook
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Also, check out the new version of Villians & Vigilantes at
http://illusionmachines.com/personal/jeff/vandv.html
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 01 Sep 1997 00:10:57 -0400
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>>>>> "JD" == Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> writes:
JD> Stainless Steel Rat said:
>> I have three apples. You try to take five from me but you can only get
>> three because that is all I have.
JD> But if I have the number 3 and I subtract 5, I get negative 2.
We are not discussing abstract numbers, we are discussing concrete
quantities. But just to play Devil's advocate here for a moment and take
this to the absurd extreme....
Say you do Drain me down to -15 points of Energy Blast. That is -3D6 worth
of EB, doing an average of -3 Body and -10 Stun. Great! you just turned my
Energy Blast into healing variant Aid! So, can I "sell" off 60 points of
Energy Blast, giving myself -12D6 of EB, and use that normally?
You cannot treat 0 as a kind of effect inversion layer.
[...]
JD> Okay, but I think maybe you are now contradicting yourself.
JD> Either I can take away that last point (or last two points, for BODY)
JD> because you have it, or I can't.
Whether characteristics can be drained to 1 or 0 is largely a GM's
judgement call. The only guidelines are that in the description of
Characteristics it is stated that one may not sell Characteristics below 1,
and in Drain that it affects Active Points.
Adjustment powers should not be directly lethal; that stomps all over
Killing Attack. Adjusting a thing to 0 Body would render it about as dead
as can be -- and that is the intent of doing so. Thus, I lean towards 1 as
a minimum for characteristic adjustments and recomend that if you want a
disintegrator gun you buy a big Killing Attack instead.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
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\ Earth, presumably from outer space.
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 01 Sep 1997 00:13:06 -0400
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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>>>>> "L" == Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> writes:
L> But KA don't model certain effects very well. Fantasy and Comics are
L> filled with "Now, your life shall become mine, and I shall toss away the
L> lifeless husk you shall become! Bwahahahah!"
Plot device.
L> Further, KA is resisted by armor and defenses...this isn't a good way to
L> model, say, a rust power, which would almost by definition not be
L> resisted by the BODY/DEF of a metal wall, since it's the metal itself
L> which is being attacked.
A perfect example of a cumulative Transformation Attack: you are changing a
thing into something else.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
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\
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
Mail-Copies-To: never
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>>>>> "DS" == David Streeter <surturz@zip.com.au> writes:
DS> How necessary is the SPD attribute in champions?
Very. Given the premise that a Champions game is a comic book, each
character's Speed tells you how frequently he appears on a given page in
relation to others. To wit, if the highest Speed is 6, a character with a
6 Speed will be featured in twice as many panels as a character with a 3
Speed.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly
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\
From: DocTough@aol.com
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 00:45:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
In a message dated 97-08-31 19:51:03 EDT, you write:
<< Hi! My first post to the list.
(Sorry that should be: "First... post... to list.... losing...
consciousness...) :-)>>
Doc replies....
Hello and welcome to the List, David
<<How necessary is the SPD attribute in champions?>>
It is very important to the HSR system. It is one of the things that
made the system unique when it first came out. It prevents the system from
being another D&D clone.
<<To me, it only seems to slow down combat and remove a lot of "realism"
from the game (not that I'm a fan of realism in an RPG).>>
Why is this really a problem? Combat should be presented as important a
part of the adventure and the story and role-playing. This isn't D&D where
you have to worry about random encounters. If your games have a alot of
unnecessary fights perhaps the GM should consider cutting back on them.
"Realism" ? You should only go so far in bringing in "realism" to an RPG.
Seriously, you can speed up combat by paying attention to the combat and
determining what your character is do ahead of time, and by being familar
with the combat rules. Trying to hang the blame on SPD just doesn't cut it
my book.
<< A few examples of problems with SPD:
1> Guns fire more bullets in the hands of higher SPD characters.>>
Unless the gun is NOT bought with Charges, you can only fire the gun a
certain number of times. A person with a higher SPD should fire more
rapidly, makes those western fast draw, high experience types feel better.
<<2> A 10PD/10ED force field costs a SPD 4 character 8 END per
turn. A 10PD/10ED force field costs a SPD 6 character 12 END per
turn, for exactly the same amount of defense.>>
Yes, this is one of the odd flukes of the SPD system. But it can be
corrected if you have such continuous powers pay thier END Cost per turn (or
segment) insted of per Phase. I have thought about such an alteration for my
Paradigm homerules alond with making movement bought in inches per segment.
Would this mean a big change in the way we have to consider continuous
powers to work? Yes, but it would correct other similar oddities too.
<< 3> A player with a SPD 6 character "gets 50% more of a game" than a
SPD 4 character.>>
Excuse me?...Are you saying that one's participation in the whole
adventure is based on their PC's SPD? Yes, they do not attack as often, but
this seems to affect only combat.
<<4> Our play group often forgets what phase it is, and has to
backtrack and work out which action occurred when. We also often have
players or NPCs acting out of turn accidentally.>>
Make flash cards, use a 12-sided die, write up an action chart...This
seems to be in the hands of the GM to keep track of and not the fault of the
SPD stat.
<< How necessary is SPD? Why not just have alternating turns, with
"speedster" effects simulated with higher movement powers and
autofire attacks (say, +1/4 for 2 shot AF)? Recovery would need a bit
of a fiddle - you could make turns 5 segments long, with everyone
getting an action every segment. "Post-12" would become "post-5"
recovery. >>
Sounds like you might want to try Fuzion/CNM. Alternating turns leaves
me feeling that everything in mechanical. It fails to fully simulate
speedsters and other combat monsters. Higher movement power would still take
up an action and Af attacks do not make up for the loss of other combat
tricks.
<< This would speed up combat heaps, IMHO.>>
Again, if a combat is not important enough to be played out it is not a
combat worth even running, so the relative speed of the fight is unimportant.
Losing SPD as a stat would create more problem than it would fix. Fuzion
lends credence to this concept. Yes , the fights go faster, but my player
felt they lost a lot in the exchange.
Planning from the GM and cooperation from the player keep the fights in
my campaign moving along just fine.
<<SurturZ
--------------------------------------------------
David Streeter <surturz@zip.com.au>>>
Doc Tough
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 01:55:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-2,4-8,13-18,21-25,38-43,48-56,60-63,67-74
From: willggeiger@juno.com (William G Geiger)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Aloha, WillGGeiger@juno.com
On Mon, 1 Sep 1997 08:51:26 +0000 "David Streeter" <surturz@zip.com.au>
writes:
>A few examples of problems with SPD:
>1> Guns fire more bullets in the hands of higher SPD characters.
No- the higher SPD character can empty the gun quicker, which, if
you are referring to a semi-automatic weapon, has some basis in reality.
And for some less than realistic sources, in addition to the comics this
game emulates, check out John Woo films "The Killer", "For A Better
Tomorrow", "A Bullet in the Head," etc.
>2> A 10PD/10ED force field costs a SPD 4 character 8 END per
>turn. A 10PD/10ED force field costs a SPD 6 character 12 END per
>turn, for exactly the same amount of defense.
True, unless you buy 0 END, or choose to lower your SPD (BBB p.
167). Most SPD 4 characters do not have the option to increase their
SPD to 6 during a game session.
>3> A player with a SPD 6 character "gets 50% more of a game" than a
>SPD 4 character.
This statement is slightly contradicted by your second observation.
Also, all of the game does not consist of combat, and even if it did,
the SPD 4 character can fight smart, especially if he knows his foe's SPD
(which the GM often lets slip). Example: El Muerto Obscuro initated a
fight at segment 12. He hurled throwing stars at Mosquito, who promptly
Dodged them. El Muerto Obscuro may now attack on segment 2, however,
Mosquito retains his 16 DCV, due in part to that Dodge, not counting any
Range Penalty! And this is vs. El Murto Obscuro's total OCV of 9. Now
his roll is no better than 4-, amigo! One segment later, it is
Mosquito's turn, now, baby. I recommend he fly away and sneak up on El
Muerto Obscuro later. Remember, if a character has less SPD than others,
those points were likely spent elsewhere. A lot of bricks have a 4 SPD.
Mentalists and sneaky characters can get away with a low SPD, too.
>4> Our play group often forgets what phase it is, and has to
>backtrack and work out which action occurred when. We also often have
>players or NPCs acting out of turn accidentally.
I suggest you make a SPD track of 12 segments, and assign one player, not
the GM, to call off each segment. He can mark the current segment with a
glass bead, penny or some such thing. I pick the player who would
otherwise be easiest distracted- now he has something extra to keep his
attention.
>
>How necessary is SPD? Why not just have alternating turns, with
>"speedster" effects simulated with higher movement powers and
>autofire attacks (say, +1/4 for 2 shot AF)? Recovery would need a bit
>of a fiddle - you could make turns 5 segments long, with everyone
>getting an action every segment. "Post-12" would become "post-5"
>recovery.
Speed helps differentiate many super's swift reflexes from the thugs they
fight. How many Nazi soldiers can Captain America strike before they can
muster a response? Cap is no speedster. Some foes are faster than our
hero suspected. "He's quicker than he looks!"
>
>This would speed up combat heaps, IMHO.
An expert GM and players can run a quick combat with the SPD rules. I've
done so with 18 players, simultaneously, in a convention game. The
characters were all pregenerated, so I knew what I was dealing with, of
course. I like the SPD rules, as they reflect the comic books well.
>
>SurturZ
>--------------------------------------------------
>David Streeter <surturz@zip.com.au>
>Synchrotech Software
>Pager: Dial 016020 & Quote Pager #247689 to operator
>
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 12:13:28 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Rat said:
>>>>>> "L" == Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> writes:
>
>L> But KA don't model certain effects very well. Fantasy and Comics are
>L> filled with "Now, your life shall become mine, and I shall toss away the
>L> lifeless husk you shall become! Bwahahahah!"
>
>Plot device.
Urm. I don't think I like that assessment. Would you still write
it up? Most "plot devices" I use aren't written with point costs... If it
were truly a plot device, there'd be maybe one specific way to get around
it, and your defenses probably wouldn't be worth half a s**t.
>L> Further, KA is resisted by armor and defenses...this isn't a good way to
>L> model, say, a rust power, which would almost by definition not be
>L> resisted by the BODY/DEF of a metal wall, since it's the metal itself
>L> which is being attacked.
>
>A perfect example of a cumulative Transformation Attack: you are changing a
>thing into something else.
>
But wouldn't partially rusting a metal weaken it, at least in some cases
(most, I would think)? Cumulative Transforms don't partially Transform an
object, at least not without a GM ruling. So, you rust the metal wall for
half it's points, but there's no real game effect until you completely
overcome it's BODY. Hurm. Nope, I still like Drain for that (with a
Limitation, Only v. Oxidizing Metals).
- Jerry
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 01:02:32 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
David Streeter wrote:
[....] "First... post... to list.... losing...
> consciousness...) :-)
>
> How necessary is the SPD attribute in champions? To me, it only seems
> to slow down combat and remove a lot of "realism" from the game (not
> that I'm a fan of realism in an RPG).
Ouch! SPD is THE unique and definitive statistic that makes the Hero
System better than any other.
> A few examples of problems with SPD:
> 1> Guns fire more bullets in the hands of higher SPD characters.
Wrong. Guns fire more *frequently* in the hands of higher SPD
characters than in others. "Normal" guns which are bought with charges
still run out after the same number of shots; they simply run out of
bullets faster.
> 2> A 10PD/10ED force field costs a SPD 4 character 8 END per
> turn. A 10PD/10ED force field costs a SPD 6 character 12 END per
> turn, for exactly the same amount of defense.
This is a quirk of the system, but can easily be explained as simply
a higher SPD character having a higher metabolism, and burning more
energy in general than others. Also, END expenditure generally should
be taken into consideration when building the character, and reduced END
cost or more END is usually taken to compensate.
> 3> A player with a SPD 6 character "gets 50% more of a game" than a
> SPD 4 character.
This is the most incorrect of all of your points. Combat is merely a
part of what makes a good game; a higher SPD usually also means some
other combat attribute is lower. I've seen low SPD characters shine out
in combats and high SPD characters fall flat.
> 4> Our play group often forgets what phase it is, and has to
> backtrack and work out which action occurred when. We also often have
> players or NPCs acting out of turn accidentally.
This is simply a question of better bookeping. My official method is
to list down all of the PC's and NPC's SPDs and DEXes on one reference
sheet, but with practice, I have gotten to where I actually keep it all
in my head. But most players should be responsible for keeping track of
their own SPDs/DEXes, leaving the GM to deal only with the NPCs.
> How necessary is SPD? Why not just have alternating turns, with
> "speedster" effects simulated with higher movement powers and
> autofire attacks (say, +1/4 for 2 shot AF)? Recovery would need a bit
> of a fiddle - you could make turns 5 segments long, with everyone
> getting an action every segment. "Post-12" would become "post-5"
> recovery.
The beauty of SPD is its versatility - especially for such things as
"speedster" tricks and their ilk. The idea is that some people can
simply move and react faster than others. Since combat is generally
expressed in 'rounds' od 'actions' which are defined as taking a
particular increment of time, SPD can reflect incremental differences
between different characters; a fight between a SPD 4 and SPD 5
character builds a lot more tension than one character who has more
'actions' per 'round'. It's the nuance of having characters who are
just a little bit faster or slower than others. Considering the huge
variety of super-power combinations, this concept is really integral to
the system - which was originally specific to the super-hero genre in
its inception (lo, those many years ago). It's vital to have - say
Spider-Man - able to act (that is have full-fledged 'actions') more
often than Joe Schlub in the alley.
If it's really a problem, have all your players rewrite their
characters with the same SPD score and do the same with your NPC's; then
every character will act every 'round' and solve your problems. But
don't forget that a 4D6 HKA at SPD 4 only needs one good hit to negate a
10 PD force field at SPD 6....
> This would speed up combat heaps, IMHO.
>
> SurturZ
> --------------------------------------------------
> David Streeter <surturz@zip.com.au>
> Synchrotech Software
> Pager: Dial 016020 & Quote Pager #247689 to operator
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Comments: Authenticated sender is <surturz@mail.zip.com.au>
From: "David Streeter" <surturz@zip.com.au>
Organization: Synchrotech Software
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 08:51:26 +0000
Subject: Is there a need for SPD?
Reply-to: surturz@zip.com.au
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Hi! My first post to the list.
(Sorry that should be: "First... post... to list.... losing...
consciousness...) :-)
How necessary is the SPD attribute in champions? To me, it only seems
to slow down combat and remove a lot of "realism" from the game (not
that I'm a fan of realism in an RPG).
A few examples of problems with SPD:
1> Guns fire more bullets in the hands of higher SPD characters.
2> A 10PD/10ED force field costs a SPD 4 character 8 END per
turn. A 10PD/10ED force field costs a SPD 6 character 12 END per
turn, for exactly the same amount of defense.
3> A player with a SPD 6 character "gets 50% more of a game" than a
SPD 4 character.
4> Our play group often forgets what phase it is, and has to
backtrack and work out which action occurred when. We also often have
players or NPCs acting out of turn accidentally.
How necessary is SPD? Why not just have alternating turns, with
"speedster" effects simulated with higher movement powers and
autofire attacks (say, +1/4 for 2 shot AF)? Recovery would need a bit
of a fiddle - you could make turns 5 segments long, with everyone
getting an action every segment. "Post-12" would become "post-5"
recovery.
This would speed up combat heaps, IMHO.
SurturZ
--------------------------------------------------
David Streeter <surturz@zip.com.au>
Synchrotech Software
Pager: Dial 016020 & Quote Pager #247689 to operator
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 97 09:20:46 GMT
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Steve McGinness)
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 12:18 AM 1/9/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>>>>> "DS" == David Streeter <surturz@zip.com.au> writes:
>DS> How necessary is the SPD attribute in champions?
>
>Very. Given the premise that a Champions game is a comic book, each
>character's Speed tells you how frequently he appears on a given page in
>relation to others. To wit, if the highest Speed is 6, a character with a
>6 Speed will be featured in twice as many panels as a character with a 3
>Speed.
>
Unless of course the speed 3 character is a big slow villain being stomped
by several weeny speed 7 characters!!
:-)
Stephen McGinness
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 08:02:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
From: "Mike O'Connor" <mjo@dojo.mi.org>
Reply-To: "Mike O'Connor" <mjo@dojo.mi.org>
X-Organization: :noitazinagrO-X
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To: champ-l@omg.org
:DS> How necessary is the SPD attribute in champions?
:
:Very. Given the premise that a Champions game is a comic book, each
:character's Speed tells you how frequently he appears on a given page in
:relation to others. To wit, if the highest Speed is 6, a character with a
:6 Speed will be featured in twice as many panels as a character with a 3
:Speed.
I'd be really bored reading some comic books if this were the case. :)
If you have a cool soliloquy, you should be allowed to express yourself
no matter what your SPD is.
Seriously, I think the initial author is pointing more to deficiencies
in the END system than in SPD.
One of the things I had experimented with is the notion of fractional
SPDs... roll dice to see if your 4.5 SPD functioned as "4" or "5".
I limited it to increments of .5, then I used a computer to generate
action charts for everyone and drew an action chart at random. But
it was too complicated and I gave that up.
--
Michael J. O'Connor | WWW: http://dojo.mi.org/~mjo/ | Email: mjo@dojo.mi.org
InterNIC WHOIS: MJO | (has my PGP & Geek Code info) | Phone: +1 248-848-4481
=--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--=
"I keep forgetting that rules are only for little nice people." -Calvin
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 07:30:45 -0600
From: Curtis Gibson <Mhoram@apeleon.net>
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
>
> Say you do Drain me down to -15 points of Energy Blast. That is -3D6 worth
> of EB, doing an average of -3 Body and -10 Stun. Great! you just turned my
> Energy Blast into healing variant Aid! So, can I "sell" off 60 points of
> Energy Blast, giving myself -12D6 of EB, and use that normally?
>
> You cannot treat 0 as a kind of effect inversion layer.
The way every campaign has handled this (granted I've only been in 4
that I haven't run) is; any points adjusted below 0 are treated as lost
for purposes of recovery time. If somone is drained to to the -15 points
of energy blast, they have no energy blast, but once the turn is up and
they recover the 5 points they move to -10 and still have no energy
blast.
That's never seemed to cause problems when we've played.
On the negative BOD issue, A drain ect cannot kill, but draining the
excess points (as above) can slow down recovery.
--
-Mhoram
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your
two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright
Comments: Authenticated sender is <surturz@mail.zip.com.au>
From: "David Streeter" <surturz@zip.com.au>
Organization: Synchrotech Software
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 16:41:57 +0000
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
Reply-to: surturz@zip.com.au
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Priority: normal
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On 1 Sep 97 at 1:55, William G Geiger rhetorically propounded:
> >4> Our play group often forgets what phase it is, and has to
> >backtrack and work out which action occurred when. We also often have
> >players or NPCs acting out of turn accidentally.
>
> I suggest you make a SPD track of 12 segments, and assign one player, not
> the GM, to call off each segment. He can mark the current segment with a
> glass bead, penny or some such thing. I pick the player who would
> otherwise be easiest distracted- now he has something extra to keep his
> attention.
:-) I suspect you've been playing Hero for quite a while. That's a
fine idea, betraying RPG genius.
I quite like action charts, like the one provided in the old
Champions II. They take a while to fill out, though, and only the GM
can do it.
SurturZ
--------------------------------------------------
David Streeter <surturz@zip.com.au>
Synchrotech Software
Pager: Dial 016020 & Quote Pager #247689 to operator
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 15:01:03 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> JD> How do other GMs handle Drains (or Transfers) that take a
> JD> characters stats to or below zero?
>
> Simply put, they cannot.
>
> Adjustment powers operate on active points. Once you have reduced a power
> or characteristic to 0 active points there are no more to affect. Thus, in
> general they cannot be adjusted below 0.
Um, yeah.
And now, possibly, for some actually helpful debate on the topic
now that Rat has had his obligatory statement of the divine revelation of
the Hero Rules - Rat Style.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 15:06:34 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Champions books, short reviews?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> These reviews may well be inaccurate. I no long own most of these.
>
> >> Champs Universe
> Has a timeline and background for the entire universe, as well as updating
> several of the villains. It was nice to have for knowing how "official"
> things were supposed to go, but my campaigns have never been champions-world.
I'd agree for the most part, but I found the brief mentions of
many "historic" characters and teams to be great starting points to
writing them up. And the Time Line is quite entertaining reading --
though it doesn't compare to the CLOWN timeline in Classic Organizations.
> >>Olympians,
> The ancient gods return, and it turns out they were merely superpowerful
> space aliens. (Chariots of the Ancient Gods indeed!) I found this a
> middling to poor supplement. If you want an interesting group with some
> mythic overtones, I think the Zodiac Conspiracy (led by _the_ Minotaur) is
> much better.
Ummm. Just a little mistaken here. The Olympians _ARE_ devine
beings finally back after Olympus and Earth are reconnected. The Roman
versions were the Space Aliens masquerading as Gods, and they were found
in Alien Enemies.
> >> Golden Age,
> I have the old one of these. A +GREAT+ book for the goofy, nicer feel of
> the war comics. Good guys wear RW, and B! Bad guys have no redeeming
> qualities, except the few who are "mostly-bad guys" and will reform by the
> end of the campaign. I'm not sure what might have changed in the new book.
An entertaining read, but I've gotten very little use from it.
Neither I nor my players are interested in playing in this period/style.
I'd almost consider it my least useful Champions purchase.
> >> Invasions: Target Earth
> Eh. Lotsa space aliens. Not too great.
Agreed.
>
> >> Dark Champions.
> Fantastic look at street-level playing. A little too punisher for me,
> child of the Silver Age. Great read and good ideas for all supers genres,
> though. I'd say buy Universe for the timeline, and buy this one next.
Like many others, I'll give great praise for this book. The list
of Weapons alone is wonderful, and the Criminal Organizations section can
add great flavor to a game. BTW, check out Card Shark. This group fits
perfectly into the 4-color setting.
-Tim Gilberg
Comments: Authenticated sender is <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 20:19:37 +0000
Subject: Point Efficiency Checklist?
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One problem I have when designing Champions characters is, I never
know how to spend points efficiently. I always seem to spend points
on things, especially stats, which do not contribute significantly to
the character. I know that there are specific "point breaks" for
characteristics, but I don't know what these are.
When you look over characters you or somebody else has designed,
where do you look for inefficiencies? I'd like to put together a
checklist for myself.
Just for kicks, here's a character I've designed; maybe it can be
used as an example for people to pick apart.
AOKI SHINJI
18 STR 8
18 DEX 24
15 CON 10
10 BODY 0
13 INT 3
13 EGO 6
15 PRE 5
10 COM 0
7 PD 3
4 ED 1
4 SPD 12
7 REC 0
28 END -1
27 STUN 0
Characteristics Cost: 71
0 Weapon Groups,Swords/Blades
1 Weapon Groups,Barehand
4 Weapon Bind
4 Martial Block
4 Martial Disarm
4 Martial Dodge
4 Fast Strike
5 Passing Strike
5 Sacr Strike
5 Off Strike
5 Takeaway
0 WF,Swords
2 WF,Common Martial Arts Weapons
1 WF,Off-Hand
1 WF,Thrown Sword
39 13 Levels,tight group
1 Acrobatics 8-
1 Acting 8-
3 Ambidexterity
3 Breakfall 13-
3 Climbing 13-
3 Concealment 12-
1 Disguise 8-
1 Eavesdropping 8-
3 13- Fast Draw
1 High Society 8-
1 KS: Buddhism 11-
1 KS: Cook 11-
1 KS: Kenjutsu 11-
1 KS: Masseur 11-
1 KS: Philosophy 11-
1 KS: Singer 11-
1 Lang: Japanese,native,literacy
1 Lockpicking 8-
3 Paramedic 12-
3 Scholar
3 Sleight Of Hand 13-
3 Stealth 13-
1 Seduction 8-
Code of Honor: Must right any wrongs he sees, correct any
social injustices, keep any oaths of loyalty he takes, must
meet any obligations he accepts, must honor good people,
must spend all his money on good deeds and good times
4 8" Superleap 3
Powers Cost: 129
Total Cost: 200
Base Points: 100
10 Distinctive,"Burning, intense eyes",concealable,minor
10 Distinctive,"Facial scars",concealable,minor
10 Enraged,"Innocents injured",common,occur 11-,recover 11-
25 Psych Lim,"Code of Honor (see below)",very common,total
10 Psych Lim,"Modest",common,moderate
10 Watched,"Oppressive nobility",more powerful,non-combat
influence,harsh,appear 8-
10 DNPC,"Various orphans, lovers, friends, innocents, etc.",
normal,appear 8-
15 Psych Lim,"Can never refuse a challenge from another
fighter",common,strong
Disadvantages Total: 100
Experience Spent: 0
Total Points: 200
----------------------------------
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com)
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf
and the PANGAEA Project!
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 15:32:10 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
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> L> Uhm...no. The introduction to the original 'Negative Characteristics'
> L> rules states, "Due to Power Drains, Trnasfers, or Attacks, a character
> L> may end up with negative characteristics..."
>
> Yes, rules that are not in any printing of the fourth edition hardcover
> Champions book, nor in the fourth edition softcover Champions book, nor the
> softcover Hero System Rulesbook. They exist in the third edition, but that
> is not the fourth edition. They exist in the Hero System Almanac #1, which
> is 100% optional, variant rules, not part of the core rules set.
Ahhhh. We see your point now. A formula something like this:
(All Hero Stuff that is not in BBB/Champs Delux/HSR)=(Nil)
However, the question was how to handle this in the Hero Rules
and/or where to find rules pertaining to this. As the 4th ed BBB does not
exist in a vacuum, but instead has been preceded by other rules sets and
since been augmented by others, we have numerous ways to handle this.
Yes, it is possible to declare this an impossible event. I
personally don't like this solution, but if anyone wants to do it that way
I'll refer them to you.
For anyone that wants to do this, I'll gladly aim them at
Champions III and the HS Almanac. Both contain approximately equal rules
that handle these situations in a reasonable matter. You'll have to deal
with a few touchy situations like how to handle BOD drains, but that
happens even with Rat's Way of the BBB.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 13:37:03 -0700
From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell)
Subject: Re: Converted character from Superebabes.
X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII
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-> From flashbak@pacbell.net Fri Aug 29 05:55:21 1997
->
->
-> As I said in a previous message, I feel that Eidetic Memory would be
-> giving Psiborg too much of an advantage. It is gross enough as it
-> stands. The INT roll presents a possibility of failure. Where Eidetic
-> memory doesn't.
As it stands, the PsiBorg doesn't know much. It can't distinguish between
fake magic and real magic. If it arrived on Earth it would make a bee-line
for Doug Henning (I'm not saying this is a bad thing).
->
-> > A 9 Pre? Ooo Scary.
->
-> It is an ant looking four armed robot. Something that looks like it
-> popped out of a science fiction movie. Which isn't that impressive,
-> until it starts firing weapons and doing damage.Plus, the thing is
-> easily confused by emotional behaviour. So, in the mind of someone from
-> a modern setting, it doesn't appear that threatening. So the 9 PRE is
-> justified.
Even when it uses it's weapons, it will be doing 1d6 for PRE, +1d6 (superior
tech) +1d6 (violent). It could max out for 18. Yawn. Meanwhile Psiborg is
so nervous that even a luck normal (rolling 2d6) can impress it and go first,
despite the awesome 55 Dex.
->
-> > A 4 speed? Seems a strange number when combined with the Dex. I'm
-> > assuming you're running a campaign with speeds of 2-5.
->
-> DEX represents accuracy, SPD represents reaction time.
Hero System Rulesbook, page 14 (softcover):
"Dexterity (DEX)
This characteristic represents the character's agility and
reaction time."
-> In the game I translated Psiborg from, mental powers can't effect
-> machines. Except when powers specifically effecting machines is bought.
-> And even then, it isn't common.
It's a good idea to note house rules like this when you post a character
who is hugely affected by them.
->
-> There is no real equivilent to Power Defense in that other game
-> system. Because alteration powers are almost non-existant.And a defense
-> against them just doesn't exist.
So? There's no SPD in most game systems. Would you make all your write-ups
SPD 0?
->
-> It is a killing machine. Simple and straightforward. The Everyman
-> Skills cover all it needs.
->
It can't even aquire a target. Some killing machine. Look at the Terminators.
Now *that* is a killing machine. Combat Driving, Criminology, Electronics,
Disguise (T1000 units only), Mimicry, Weapon Familiarities...
->
-> > <Power Level comments deleted>
->
-> I knew something like that would be dropped in my lap eventually!
->
-> This thing is supposed to be a major team level menace, not
-> something someone can take out very easily. It is an annoyingly
-> recurring threat. One that has to be delt with, or someone will get
-> hurt. A perfect type of villain for the heroes to cut loose on without
-> having to face any guilt.
Actually, I think Mark was making a comment about how wimpy it was. I'm
sure PsiBorg is really awesome in some campaigns, but against most teams
I've seen he wouldn't make it past the first segment.
-Sam
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 15:45:06 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
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> :Very. Given the premise that a Champions game is a comic book, each
> :character's Speed tells you how frequently he appears on a given page in
> :relation to others. To wit, if the highest Speed is 6, a character with a
> :6 Speed will be featured in twice as many panels as a character with a 3
> :Speed.
>
> I'd be really bored reading some comic books if this were the case. :)
> If you have a cool soliloquy, you should be allowed to express yourself
> no matter what your SPD is.
Quite true, and that's why Soliloquy's are no time actions in the
Hero System. You just won't be able to always follw them with a
devestating roundhouse right, or whatever be your favorite attack.
> Seriously, I think the initial author is pointing more to deficiencies
> in the END system than in SPD.
I find them small enough not to bother with, for the most part.
> One of the things I had experimented with is the notion of fractional
> SPDs... roll dice to see if your 4.5 SPD functioned as "4" or "5".
> I limited it to increments of .5, then I used a computer to generate
> action charts for everyone and drew an action chart at random. But
> it was too complicated and I gave that up.
Ug. I don't blaim you.
-Tim Gilberg
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"champ-l@omg.org\" <champ-l@omg.org&> \"hero-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 97 22:02:31
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Here's my take on the 'Drain to Zero'. Remember that I am looking at
this from a Fantasy Hero perspective before applying the flames <g>
'A Power cannot duplicate another Power'. Therefore you cannot use
Drain to affect BODY. If you want to affect BODY you use Blast or
Killing Blast as appropriate. If you want to affect the recovery time,
you apply a + or - 1/4 per step on the Time Chart.
OR you do away with Blast and Killing Blast, which means Normal attacks
become much more expensive in AP terms (unless you define them as Stun
Only), ditto Killing attacks unless you treat them as BODY only. This
is ignoring the 'STR adds damage' concept. This also lessens the
variation (qv the Stun Lottery thread)
The second method makes weapons MUCH more interesting, as it allows the
attacker to determine how lasting the damage is going to be.
The easy example is a Quarterstaff, which normally does a 4d6 Blast.
Under the alternative concept, we have
26 Pt Multipower (Full Power only -1/2)
Multislot 1d6+1 Drain vs Body w/8 levels on time chart (partial
limitation on Drain: Full Power only -1/2; partial limitation on
advantages: 1 Recovery level can be negated by Taking a Recovery (-2),
no limitation on 7 levels)
Multislot 4d6 Drain vs Stun (Must fill up slack left by first slot
-1/4, linked -1/4)
This bends the rules for MPs a bit, but is reasonable. It also ignores
armour, PD, and ED, but I'm being basic: you can add Limitations to
suit.
To this you can add all the usual Str Min Limitations etc. I've not
experimented with this too much - I haven't had the gaming time - but
it bears further investigation. For the moment, I'm sticking with 'You
can't Drain BODY or STUN'
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From: John Doe <juan@henge.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 17:38:20 -0600
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Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
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At 12:45 AM 9/1/97 -0400, Doc Tough wrote:
> <<How necessary is the SPD attribute in champions?>>
> It is very important to the HSR system. It is one of the things that
>made the system unique when it first came out. It prevents the system from
>being another D&D clone.
OTOH, it is possible that it gets in the way. Initiative countdowns as in
Shadowrun and Feng Shui seem better for Speedsters. Besides, Speedsters in
most comics only hit about as often as their opponents. They just hit with
a >special effect< of multiple blows or whatever.
> <<2> A 10PD/10ED force field costs a SPD 4 character 8 END per
> turn. A 10PD/10ED force field costs a SPD 6 character 12 END per
> turn, for exactly the same amount of defense.>>
> Yes, this is one of the odd flukes of the SPD system. But it can be
>corrected if you have such continuous powers pay thier END Cost per turn (or
>segment) insted of per Phase. I have thought about such an alteration for my
>Paradigm homerules alond with making movement bought in inches per segment.
> Would this mean a big change in the way we have to consider continuous
>powers to work? Yes, but it would correct other similar oddities too.
This is another good argument for a combat turn w/countdown. You pay end on
a continuous power for the TURN. Don't have a good solution for the
movement problem. We tried movement/segment, with changes allowed only on
an active phase. It was interesting, but the faster guys ran rings around
the bricks.
><< 3> A player with a SPD 6 character "gets 50% more of a game" than a
> SPD 4 character.
Well, a SPD 6 character can get into trouble faster than a SPD 4 character.
That is, like Martian Banshees in Warzone, that extra movement gives
opponents a reason to "ignore the brick momentarily" while they mop up the
annoying quick character.
> <<4> Our play group often forgets what phase it is, and has to
> backtrack and work out which action occurred when. We also often have
> players or NPCs acting out of turn accidentally.>>
> Make flash cards, use a 12-sided die, write up an action chart...This
>seems to be in the hands of the GM to keep track of and not the fault of the
>SPD stat.
12-sided die. 12-sided die. 12-sided die. Did I mention I use a 12-sided die?
I also use a quick chart that has everyone's speed, dex, PD, ED, Stun, Body
and basic attacks. Makes for little fiddling so I can concentrate on the
exciting action.
Comments: Authenticated sender is <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 00:58:54 +0000
Subject: Re: Point Efficiency Checklist?
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> I do scrutinize point breaks, so below are my remarks.
Would you mind letting me know how to determine what the point breaks
are?
Guy
----------------------------------
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com)
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf
and the PANGAEA Project!
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 13:40:02 +1000
From: Robert Challenger <thanos@zip.com.au>
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
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jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
>
> hows about just having 'actions' equal to speed, like # of attacks? when > someone wants an action, whoever has the highest number of actions left > gos, dex deciding ties?
>
The reason against this would be that the higher speed character could
wait till the lower speeds use all their 'actions' and defend against
them, and then get basically free time where the others cant react.
[I dont think i explained that very well, so ill try to use an example]
We have Speed 6 Man, vs UberSpeed 4
Action S4 S6
1 Attack Dodge
2 Attack Dodge
3 Attack Dodge
4 Attack Dodge
Suddenly, Uber4 has no action left to defend himself or anything.
5 looks worried Attack
6 really worried Haymaker
I think ive explained myself now.
Unless I havent of course 8)
--
Don't think cause I understand, I care.. | Robert Challenger
Don't think cause I'm talking, we're friends.. | Thanos@Zip.Com.Au
- 6 Underground, Sneaker Pimps. |
Manic Depressive Dragon -==(UDIC)==-
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 01:05:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Point Efficiency Checklist?
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From: willggeiger@juno.com (William G Geiger)
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I do scrutinize point breaks, so below are my remarks.
Aloha, WillGGeiger@juno.com
On Mon, 1 Sep 1997 20:19:37 +0000 "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
writes:
>One problem I have when designing Champions characters is, I never
>know how to spend points efficiently. I always seem to spend points
>on things, especially stats, which do not contribute significantly to
>the character. I know that there are specific "point breaks" for
>characteristics, but I don't know what these are.
>
>When you look over characters you or somebody else has designed,
>where do you look for inefficiencies? I'd like to put together a
>checklist for myself.
>
>Just for kicks, here's a character I've designed; maybe it can be
>used as an example for people to pick apart.
>
>AOKI SHINJI
>18 STR 8 I prefer a 15 STR, costs only 1 END.
>18 DEX 24 I prefer a 20 DEX, CV 7, 1/2 CV 4
>15 CON 10 I prefer an 18 CON- no fun getting Stunned too
often
>10 BODY 0 Leftover points go here
>13 INT 3 Superb choice, PER and INT 12-
>13 EGO 6 I prefer 11 EGO, same ECV (4)
>15 PRE 5 Another good choice
>10 COM 0 Okay for your guy, I like 16 COM for
attractive people
>7 PD 3 This is good
>4 ED 1 I like and odd number DEF, so it rounds up vs.
AP & Find Weakness.
>4 SPD 12 This is good
>7 REC 0 Good
>28 END -1 Good
>27 STUN 0 Good
>Characteristics Cost: 71
>
>0 Weapon Groups,Swords/Blades
>1 Weapon Groups,Barehand
>4 Weapon Bind
>4 Martial Block
>4 Martial Disarm
>4 Martial Dodge
>4 Fast Strike
>5 Passing Strike
>5 Sacr Strike
>5 Off Strike I'd take this, not Sacr Strike.
Use Off Strike when you have
the upper hand, use Fast Strike when you need the adds to hit
>5 Takeaway I'd take this instead of
Weapon Bind and M. Disarm
>0 WF,Swords
>2 WF,Common Martial Arts Weapons- No Weapon Elements for
this,
consider buying this later
>1 WF,Off-Hand
>1 WF,Thrown Sword
>39 13 Levels,tight group these are many levels, many
GMs would prefer
5
levels or less for starting characters. Some
GMs would let you take the 13
levels, and
ambush Aoki often, and/or use Area Effect
attacks
vs. him; flaming oil, nets, etc.
>1 Acrobatics 8- Spend 3 points instead, get a
13- for combat
>1 Acting 8-
>3 Ambidexterity
>3 Breakfall 13-
>3 Climbing 13-
>3 Concealment 12-
>1 Disguise 8-
>1 Eavesdropping 8-
>3 13- Fast Draw
>1 High Society 8-
>1 KS: Buddhism 11-
>1 KS: Cook 11-
>1 KS: Kenjutsu 11-
>1 KS: Masseur 11-
>1 KS: Philosophy 11-
>1 KS: Singer 11-
>1 Lang: Japanese,native,literacy
>1 Lockpicking 8-
>3 Paramedic 12-
>3 Scholar
>3 Sleight Of Hand 13-
>3 Stealth 13-
>1 Seduction 8-
> Code of Honor: Must right any wrongs he sees, correct any
> social injustices, keep any oaths of loyalty he takes, must
> meet any obligations he accepts, must honor good people,
> must spend all his money on good deeds and good times
>
>4 8" Superleap 3 How did you figure the point cost here?
Super way to get in and out of a fight, and
good to use w/Passing Strike, of course.
>
>Powers Cost: 129
>Total Cost: 200
>
>Base Points: 100
>10 Distinctive,"Burning, intense eyes",concealable,minor
>10 Distinctive,"Facial scars",concealable,minor
>10 Enraged,"Innocents injured",common,occur 11-,recover 11-
>25 Psych Lim,"Code of Honor (see below)",very common,total
>10 Psych Lim,"Modest",common,moderate
>10 Watched,"Oppressive nobility",more powerful,non-combat
> influence,harsh,appear 8-
>10 DNPC,"Various orphans, lovers, friends, innocents, etc.",
> normal,appear 8-
>15 Psych Lim,"Can never refuse a challenge from another
> fighter",common,strong
>
>Disadvantages Total: 100
>Experience Spent: 0
>Total Points: 200
>
>----------------------------------
>Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com)
>http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/
>Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf
>and the PANGAEA Project!
>
From: Firelynx16@aol.com
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 01:10:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
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In a message dated 97-09-01 23:07:48 EDT, you write:
<< > L> Uhm...no. The introduction to the original 'Negative Characteristics'
> L> rules states, "Due to Power Drains, Trnasfers, or Attacks, a character
> L> may end up with negative characteristics..."
>
> Yes, rules that are not in any printing of the fourth edition hardcover
> Champions book, nor in the fourth edition softcover Champions book, nor
the
> softcover Hero System Rulesbook. They exist in the third edition, but
that
> is not the fourth edition. They exist in the Hero System Almanac #1,
which
> is 100% optional, variant rules, not part of the core rules set.
Ahhhh. We see your point now. A formula something like this:
(All Hero Stuff that is not in BBB/Champs Delux/HSR)=(Nil)
>>
Even though the Hero System Almanac 1 is optional, the section under negative
characteristics makes a statement concerning Drain/Transfer that is most
definitely not optional. The opening line "What do you do when a Drain or a
Transfer has taken your INT score below zero?" is asking a question about a
problem that *already* exists in BBB/Champs Delux/HSR... the *answer* is the
optional part. In other words, that line, and the ones following it, shows
that under BBB 'official' rules, it's *already* quite possible for
Drains/Transfers to take characteristics below zero. The Almanac is just
offering 'optional' rules on how to handle negative characteristics once it
happens. The Almanac makes no statement that Draining/Transfering
characteristics below zero is optional... just how to handle them once they
*are* below zero.
'Lynx
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 23:19:21 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
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John Doe wrote:
> OTOH, it is possible that it gets in the way. Initiative countdowns as in
> Shadowrun and Feng Shui seem better for Speedsters. Besides, Speedsters in
> most comics only hit about as often as their opponents. They just hit with
> a >special effect< of multiple blows or whatever.
I have to disagree here; speedsters have been known to attack several
people spread apart in a room all before any one can act, react to one
incoming attack then launch another attack against a different opponent,
and other things that require a larger number of actual actions than
others.
>
>
> > <<2> A 10PD/10ED force field costs a SPD 4 character 8 END per
> > turn. A 10PD/10ED force field costs a SPD 6 character 12 END per
> > turn, for exactly the same amount of defense.>>
On the other hand, a 6 SPD character pays 2 points for +1" of
running, yeilding 42" per turn, a SPD 4 character pays 2 points for +1"
of running for a total of 28" per turn. So there is give and take to
the relative SPD bonuses and liabilities.
> This is another good argument for a combat turn w/countdown. You pay end on
> a continuous power for the TURN. Don't have a good solution for the
> movement problem. We tried movement/segment, with changes allowed only on
> an active phase. It was interesting, but the faster guys ran rings around
> the bricks.
The system of 'Per-Turn END' can be adapted for games either with or
without a SPD differential, thus that particular point is moot for the
SPD arguement
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 00:29:22 -0700
From: Darrin Kelley <flashbak@pacbell.net>
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Subject: Re: Converted character from Superebabes.
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Sam Bell wrote:
> As it stands, the PsiBorg doesn't know much. It can't distinguish
> between
> fake magic and real magic. If it arrived on Earth it would make a
> bee-line
> for Doug Henning (I'm not saying this is a bad thing).
Which is as it should be. Since the Psiborg unit hasn't had much
contact with magic on a first hand basis. It has its current target and
the others of priority that are programmed into it.
> Even when it uses it's weapons, it will be doing 1d6 for PRE, +1d6
> (superior
> tech) +1d6 (violent). It could max out for 18. Yawn. Meanwhile
> Psiborg is
> so nervous that even a luck normal (rolling 2d6) can impress it and go
> first,
> despite the awesome 55 Dex.
Everything needs weaknesses. And I have indeed seen recorded
episodes where normals haev out-done Psiborg. There was nothing was
wrong with that. It actually gave them a decent chance of survival.
> Hero System Rulesbook, page 14 (softcover):
>
> "Dexterity (DEX)
> This characteristic represents the character's agility and
> reaction time."
The 4th Edition Rulebook has many places that are inaccurate. And
this is one of the areas where I believe there was a mistake. SPD has
always been more of an indicator of reaction time than DEX.
> It's a good idea to note house rules like this when you post a
> character
> who is hugely affected by them.
True enough.
> So? There's no SPD in most game systems. Would you make all your
> write-ups
> SPD 0?
Actually, there has always been an equivilent in the games I have
done conversion for. Attacks Per Round is a good example.
Power Defense is a cludge that isn't definable by special effects.
So if it can't be defined or justified, I don't put it on a character.
Ever
I have actually thought of making some house rules to eliminate
Power Defense completely and redefine the way Adjustment powers work so
that they function without it. More like an NND that reacts against
Power Points instead of STUN.
>
>
> ->
> -> It is a killing machine. Simple and straightforward. The
> Everyman
> -> Skills cover all it needs.
> ->
>
> It can't even aquire a target. Some killing machine. Look at the
> Terminators.
> Now *that* is a killing machine. Combat Driving, Criminology,
> Electronics,
> Disguise (T1000 units only), Mimicry, Weapon Familiarities...
>
> ->
> -> > <Power Level comments deleted>
> ->
> -> I knew something like that would be dropped in my lap
> eventually!
> ->
> -> This thing is supposed to be a major team level menace, not
> -> something someone can take out very easily. It is an annoyingly
> -> recurring threat. One that has to be delt with, or someone will get
>
> -> hurt. A perfect type of villain for the heroes to cut loose on
> without
> -> having to face any guilt.
>
> Actually, I think Mark was making a comment about how wimpy it was.
> I'm
> sure PsiBorg is really awesome in some campaigns, but against most
> teams
> I've seen he wouldn't make it past the first segment.
>
> -Sam
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford)
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 10:13:06 GMT
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On Thu, 28 Aug 1997 11:00:23 +0000, you wrote:
>> - Don't be afraid to 'cheat' to make the game more fun for you AND your
>> players
>
>Here I happen to disagree with you. Those times the GM has cheated in
>favour of my character, or against my character I've been
>disappointed. When the GM cheats in my favour I feel like the risk,
>and excitement of the game disappears. When the GM cheats against
>my character I feel my decisions, and actions have become pointless.
So do you feel that your character should die simply because of bad
luck in dice rolls? As a GM I've considered the "luck of the dice"
several times when rolling damage, and decided to not outright kill a
character simply because the dice decided to do so. Injure seriously,
yes. Kill, no.
Now, should characters do something stupid, I let the dice land where
they may. But being killed or seriously maimed simply because the dice
decree it, no. I change the results.
John Lansford
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Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 17:08:07 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
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Rat wrote:
>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
>BG> What about the proposed suggestion of having death occur when BODY
>BG> is drained to negative BODY (rather than to 0)?
>BG> Would that really step on the KAs all that much? (Does someone want to
>BG> crunch the numbers on that one?)
>
>Okay... assuming a character with 10 Body and 10 points of resistant
>defense and no Power Defense -- not too bad for a street-level superhero.
>
>To kill him outright with a KA you need to do 30 points of Body damage, 10
>stopped by defenses plus 20 more to actually kill him. That requires, on
>average, 8.5D6K with an active cost of 127.5
>
>To do the same with a Drain, based on the premise of death at 0, you need
>to drain 10 Body, or 20 active points worth. That requires, on average,
>6D6 of Drain with an active cost of 60 points, or 90 if you want to make it
>a ranged attack.
>
>So, you can see that in a campaign where Power Defense is unusual (which is
>just about all of them), allowing adjustment powers to be lethal not only
>walks all over Killing Attacks, it does so with a 25-50% cost break.
>
But, Mr. Greenwade wasn't the one who said you just had to Drain someone to
zero. In fact, he expressed his opinion in the same post you were
responding to (look above). I think *I* was the *only* one to bring up the
Drain to zero as instant death, and I've rethought it since.
A Drain against the "street-level superhero" you mentioned above would have
to be an average of 12d6 (to Drain 20 Body, or 40 Active Points), which
gives an Active Cost of 120 points, or 180 if you want to make it a ranged
attack. (Which I think it ought to be, because your RKA is.) [It could be
argued that you would only need 11 1/2d6, to generate a 40.5 Active Point
Drain.]
So, a lethal (on average) in one shot RKA costs 127.5 points.
And a lethal (on average) in one shot Drain v. Body costs 180 points.
- Jerry
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 11:18:04 +0000
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
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On 2 Sep 97 at 6:36, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> At 11:51 AM 8/30/97 -0700, Lizard wrote:
>
> >Also, if you drain someone to -BODY, can I safely assume they are dead, and
> >they won't "recover" later? Drains simulate some forms of potentially fatal
> >spells better than KA do in my FH campaigns.
>
> I'd do it that way unless the BODY drain had a -1/4 Limitation "Not
> Necessarily Dead," in which case the target only appears to be dead and
> will recover the lost BODY normally. (OK, I'm being mostly facetious
> here...)
"A lot you know. Your friend is only _mostly_ dead. If he were all
the way dead, there's only one thing you can do."
"What's that?"
"Go through his pockets for loose change."
I like the Princess Bride. And it is a perfect example of BODY Drain,
too.<G>
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 11:18:04 +0000
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
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Since their seems to be a general feeling on this list that SPD is
heavily abused by players in most games, I had some suggestions on
how to deal with this.
First, change movement to a per Turn basis. This eliminates one of
the advantages to SPD right there. It also prevents a high-speed
character with Normal Characteristic Maxima from running at 30 MPH,
unless you set the new running maxima to 4 times the old one.
Now, a character who wants to be very fast no longer has an incentive
to buy a high SPD. After all, just because they can fly very fast
doesn't necessarily mean they need a high SPD. Also, it might be
interesting to have a character who can run super fast, but has a low
SPD. (Can _you_ accurately shoot a target while running at 100 MPH?)
Next, the END rules. Leave them alone. Not only does changing them to
a per/Turn basis cause trouble with other Continuous powers, but not
changing it increases the effective cost for a high-Speed character.
If players are still abusive, use the Hero-level character rules for
Endurance, rather than superhero, that is 1 END/5 Active pts rather
than 1 END/ 10. Thus, the Endurance penalty on very fast characters
becomes even greater, and gives a greater incentive to have a slower
character.
Lastly, you might try a version of the Rule of X from Fuzion that
incorporates SPD, as a house rule (No, not FUZION!!!
AAAIIIIEEEE!!!!) Put a limit in your champaign something like
this (X = character's largest DC + OCV+2xSPD), with a champaign
maximum that fits your campaign. Thus, the faster character must have
weaker attacks or be less accurate or both the faster he/she is. This
imposes yet another limit on Speed abuse.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
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From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 05:52:45 -0700
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At 10:57 PM 8/30/97 GMT, you wrote:
>
>Supers often seem to have jobs, but they seem to not be as dedicated to
them as
>normals.
Oh, you've noticed this, have you?
Actually, I think many of them tend to gravitate toward jobs that better
facilitate their superhero activities (reporter, press photographer, and
playboy billionaire come right to mind). As for those that don't, well,
there's something to be said for being more dedicated to superheroing,
especially where saving lives comes into play.
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Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 08:09:30 -0500
From: Earl Kwallek <earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us>
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
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At 09:09 AM 9/3/97 +0100, Chris Lynch wrote:
>I certainly have experiecned problems with the speed characteristic, with
>people pumping higher and higher speeds into thier characters.
Too many (read all) campaigns I have run or played in have rapidly
devolved into
SPD/DEX races. the assumption being that the character with the greatest
number of actions wins. Unfortunately, this is almost universally true.
>
>The important thing to do with speed is to impress on people exactly how it
>works. A character with speed 4 ( a low speed in some campaigns ) is twice
>as fast as a normal human. This is a superpower in itself! A little control
>on the part of players is usually enough to allow the stat to stop being
>unworkable.
>
Restraint? On the part of PLAYERS? You obviously have much better players
than are available here in Milwaukee...
The single question I hear most often is "What's the max DEX & SPD you
allow", to which I usually answer "Since you asked, 10 & 2"
Earl Kwallek - Earl@TheWarren.Mil.Wi.US
A Man with a gun is a citizen;
a man without a gun is a subject.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 06:16:25 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Champions books, short reviews?
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At 06:19 PM 8/30/97 -0500, Tivaak wrote:
>well, i'm pretty much sold on getting Champions Universe, if only for the
>timeline, but what else is in the book?
>
>Also, what about the following books:
>
>Olympians, Golden Age, Invasions: Target Earth and Dark Champions.
>
>could someone post some short reviews of these books -- what's in them, are
>they worth getting? etc. thanks for any information. i know that they're
>mostly out of print, but there are places on the web i can get them, but i
>don't like getting books sight unseen, so any information would be very
>helpful.
Champions Universe: Contains a large variety of material, including
rewrites of Deathstroke, Malachite, and the Freedom Squad; a few completely
new character write-ups; a full scenario with a new hero/villain group;
generalized descriptions of all the major organizations (on both sides of
the law) in the CU; an overview of superhuman activities worldwide; and
more. It's not nearly as useful as it tries to be, but not as bad as
detractors say it is.
Olympians: A good concept and relatively well-executed. This brings
the Greek gods to the Champions Universe in much the same way that Mighty
Thor brought the Norse gods to the Marvel Universe. Unless you plan on
actually using at least one of the gods, though, it's not much use other
than as background (this being the only real weakness).
Golden Age of Champions: This is a very useful book; at least, I'm
going to getting some mileage out of it even in my modern-day campaign. It
includes a timeline of the war (the sole major flaw to the book being that
neither the Champions Universe timeline nor that for Nazi World are fully
compatible with previously published timelines for those Universes), a
large section of WWII characters, several brief scenarios, and a *major*
sourcebook detailing the culture of the period (and it happens to be highly
accurate, too!). This book really does have it all, and it accurately
captures the spirit of not only the comics put out during WWII, but also
latter-day comics set during that time. A good buy all around, and useful
even to non-gamers.
Invasions: Target Earth: This provides a detailed structure to help
plan an invasion scenario (in any game system, really), and a sample
invasion featuring an interdimensional force of demons plus a few other
potentially useful invading forces. That first section is really the only
part that's worth the effort, but it's worth the price of admission (and
the demon horde isn't exactly altogether useless either).
Dark Champions: This is a handy if you want to add any level of
"realism" to your game, whether you decide to run a down-to-earth group of
vigilantes or just include a "dark knight" type in your four-color group.
Gun and vehicle lists, descriptions of real-world organized crime groups, a
discussion of the law as it might pertain to superheroes, character
creation and combat options, and even the new character write-ups can add a
bit of grit to just about any campaign. It's not the best Hero Games ever
put out, but it's near the top of the list.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 06:32:53 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Converted character from Superebabes.
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At 01:37 PM 9/1/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
>-> From flashbak@pacbell.net Fri Aug 29 05:55:21 1997
>->
>->
>-> As I said in a previous message, I feel that Eidetic Memory would be
>-> giving Psiborg too much of an advantage. It is gross enough as it
>-> stands. The INT roll presents a possibility of failure. Where Eidetic
>-> memory doesn't.
>
>As it stands, the PsiBorg doesn't know much. It can't distinguish between
>fake magic and real magic. If it arrived on Earth it would make a bee-line
>for Doug Henning (I'm not saying this is a bad thing).
Pardon the off topic post, but does anybody happen to know the little
rap that David Copperfield once did that included the line, "That's why I'm
lasting longer than that Henning dude" (or something similar)? If anyone
does, please directly email me the words; I'd love to have it. :-]
[No need to respond to the list, unless you have a software nuance that
forces same....]
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Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 06:33:10 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
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<x-rich>At 12:48 PM 8/30/97 +0600, you wrote:
> How do other GMs handle Drains (or Transfers) that take a
characters
>stats to or below zero? Personally, I use the Negative
Characteristics
>rules in the old Champions III book, but I'd be interested in your
comments.
<italic>Hero System Almanac 1</italic> also has a write-up on how to
handle negative Characteristics (probably drawn from <italic>Champions
III</italic>; someone else can correct me on that if I'm wrong).
Personally, I have a problem with those rules because in many cases
they go from having little or no problem at CHA=1 to having to make a CHA
Roll (of 9 or less) at CHA=0. Personally, I'd modify this to having to
make a normal EGO Roll (at Normal EGO plus actual EGO, so an EGO 14
character who'd been drained down to EGO -6 would operate at EGO 8).
Other than that, for lack of anything better, I'd just go with what's in
<italic>HSA1</italic>.
PS: If anyone gets anything weird with this message, please let me
know by private email. I'm trying something a little different, but most
folks shouldn't notice anything unusual.
</x-rich>
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Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 06:36:10 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
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At 11:51 AM 8/30/97 -0700, Lizard wrote:
>At 12:48 PM 8/30/97 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>> How do other GMs handle Drains (or Transfers) that take a characters
>>stats to or below zero? Personally, I use the Negative Characteristics
>>rules in the old Champions III book, but I'd be interested in your comments.
>
>Also, if you drain someone to -BODY, can I safely assume they are dead, and
>they won't "recover" later? Drains simulate some forms of potentially fatal
>spells better than KA do in my FH campaigns.
I'd do it that way unless the BODY drain had a -1/4 Limitation "Not
Necessarily Dead," in which case the target only appears to be dead and
will recover the lost BODY normally. (OK, I'm being mostly facetious
here...)
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 06:45:05 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
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At 12:10 AM 9/1/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "JD" == Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> writes:
>
>JD> Stainless Steel Rat said:
>>> I have three apples. You try to take five from me but you can only get
>>> three because that is all I have.
>
>JD> But if I have the number 3 and I subtract 5, I get negative 2.
>
>We are not discussing abstract numbers, we are discussing concrete
>quantities. But just to play Devil's advocate here for a moment and take
>this to the absurd extreme....
>
>Say you do Drain me down to -15 points of Energy Blast. That is -3D6 worth
>of EB, doing an average of -3 Body and -10 Stun. Great! you just turned my
>Energy Blast into healing variant Aid! So, can I "sell" off 60 points of
>Energy Blast, giving myself -12D6 of EB, and use that normally?
I would say that having -15 points of EB would have only the effect of
keeping you from recovering the first useful points of EB back any time
soon. The exponential nature of Hero lends itself well to this ("My hands
are generating a *little* heat, but it's not really doing anything!")
>Adjustment powers should not be directly lethal; that stomps all over
>Killing Attack. Adjusting a thing to 0 Body would render it about as dead
>as can be -- and that is the intent of doing so. Thus, I lean towards 1 as
>a minimum for characteristic adjustments and recomend that if you want a
>disintegrator gun you buy a big Killing Attack instead.
What about the proposed suggestion of having death occur when BODY is
drained to negative BODY (rather than to 0)? Would that really step on the
KAs all that much? (Does someone want to crunch the numbers on that one?)
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 07:04:34 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 04:41 PM 9/1/97 +0000, David Streeter wrote:
>On 1 Sep 97 at 1:55, William G Geiger rhetorically propounded:
>> I suggest you make a SPD track of 12 segments, and assign one player, not
>> the GM, to call off each segment. He can mark the current segment with a
>> glass bead, penny or some such thing. I pick the player who would
>> otherwise be easiest distracted- now he has something extra to keep his
>> attention.
>
>I quite like action charts, like the one provided in the old
>Champions II. They take a while to fill out, though, and only the GM
>can do it.
The booklet accompanying the Champions GM's Shield includes (among other
things) an action chart for just such a case. I've always filled out such
charts, though I do it well ahead of time for any battle that's likely to
take place during the coming session. (I do not like random encounters,
and I try to avoid surprise fights and hope my players in any given group
feel the same way.)
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 07:04:34 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
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At 04:41 PM 9/1/97 +0000, David Streeter wrote:
>On 1 Sep 97 at 1:55, William G Geiger rhetorically propounded:
>> I suggest you make a SPD track of 12 segments, and assign one player, not
>> the GM, to call off each segment. He can mark the current segment with a
>> glass bead, penny or some such thing. I pick the player who would
>> otherwise be easiest distracted- now he has something extra to keep his
>> attention.
>
>I quite like action charts, like the one provided in the old
>Champions II. They take a while to fill out, though, and only the GM
>can do it.
The booklet accompanying the Champions GM's Shield includes (among other
things) an action chart for just such a case. I've always filled out such
charts, though I do it well ahead of time for any battle that's likely to
take place during the coming session. (I do not like random encounters,
and I try to avoid surprise fights and hope my players in any given group
feel the same way.)
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 07:06:10 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
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At 08:51 AM 9/1/97 +0000, David Streeter wrote:
>Hi! My first post to the list.
>
>(Sorry that should be: "First... post... to list.... losing...
>consciousness...) :-)
>
>How necessary is the SPD attribute in champions? To me, it only seems
>to slow down combat and remove a lot of "realism" from the game (not
>that I'm a fan of realism in an RPG).
Despite what others are saying (most of which really is quite true, like
SPD being the defining characteristic of the Hero system), it's not 100%
absolutely necessary; ditch it if you really want to. After all, it's your
game. Hero traditionalists will be confused (and some may be outraged),
but what the heck. However, if speeding up combat is your goal, I think
you'll find the effect to be minimal.
Another option for speeding up combat is to use a diceless system; one
can be found on my Hero Stuff Page (URL below). I'll warn you that, while
this system has reportedly brought the time for Hero combat down as much as
half or even less, it does change the balance of the game in favor of
mentalists and high-DEX characters (though these issues are discussed in
the article).
DocTough's pointers on reducing the time for combat (especially putting
together an action chart to manage combat, and making sure the players pay
attention to what's going on!) are even better tips.
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 07:10:31 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Fractional SPD
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At 08:02 AM 9/1/97 -0400, Mike O'Connor wrote:
>One of the things I had experimented with is the notion of fractional
>SPDs... roll dice to see if your 4.5 SPD functioned as "4" or "5".
>I limited it to increments of .5, then I used a computer to generate
>action charts for everyone and drew an action chart at random. But
>it was too complicated and I gave that up.
An idea I toyed with re: fractional SPD was to allow someone with a
half-mark of SPD to move as though he had twice that SPD, but only every
other Phase. Thus your guy with SPD 4.5 would get Phases on segments 2, 4,
7, 10, and 12 on the first Turn, and 3, 6, 8, and 11 on the second Turn.
It's still more complicated than basic Hero combat, but not as bad as your
system.
Mind you, I've never actually tried this; I've only ruminated on it.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 07:17:51 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
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At 11:19 PM 9/1/97 -0700, Captain Spith wrote:
>John Doe wrote:
>
>> OTOH, it is possible that it gets in the way. Initiative countdowns as in
>> Shadowrun and Feng Shui seem better for Speedsters. Besides, Speedsters in
>> most comics only hit about as often as their opponents. They just hit with
>> a >special effect< of multiple blows or whatever.
>
> I have to disagree here; speedsters have been known to attack several
>people spread apart in a room all before any one can act, react to one
>incoming attack then launch another attack against a different opponent,
>and other things that require a larger number of actual actions than
>others.
I think I'd compromise on this. There are speedsters, such as
Quicksilver, and then there are SPEEDSTERS, like the Flash. QS would have
a SPD around 7 or 8 (IOW just a tad higher than most other supers), while
Flash would be 12 or possibly (at the risk of starting an old debate all
over again) even higher.
>> This is another good argument for a combat turn w/countdown. You pay
end on
>> a continuous power for the TURN. Don't have a good solution for the
>> movement problem. We tried movement/segment, with changes allowed only on
>> an active phase. It was interesting, but the faster guys ran rings around
>> the bricks.
>
> The system of 'Per-Turn END' can be adapted for games either with or
>without a SPD differential, thus that particular point is moot for the
>SPD arguement
In defense of this, a "Per-Turn END" would have greater impact on a
SPD-based system. Personally I think that an END/Movement system based on
Turns instead of Phases would be great to have around as an option
(addressing Movement as well as END to keep the balance that you so
correctly pointed out).
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 07:24:13 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Question about "Linked"
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 03:00 PM 8/28/97 -0500, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> >The description to the "Linked" disadvantage states that a power can only
>> >be linked to a larger power. My question is how are the two powers
>> >compared, by Real Points, Active Points, or Character Points?
>>
>> Active.
>> (Oh please please please let them let this pass....) ;-]
>
>
> Now, now. Even though I know not what side of the debate you rest
>upon, I know of no argument about this aspect of linked.
>
> BTW, you are one of the *good* guys, right?
Uh... Why, yes! Of course I am!
[*whew*]
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 07:24:13 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Question about "Linked"
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 03:00 PM 8/28/97 -0500, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> >The description to the "Linked" disadvantage states that a power can only
>> >be linked to a larger power. My question is how are the two powers
>> >compared, by Real Points, Active Points, or Character Points?
>>
>> Active.
>> (Oh please please please let them let this pass....) ;-]
>
>
> Now, now. Even though I know not what side of the debate you rest
>upon, I know of no argument about this aspect of linked.
>
> BTW, you are one of the *good* guys, right?
Uh... Why, yes! Of course I am!
[*whew*]
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 07:29:48 -0700
From: Darrin Kelley <flashbak@pacbell.net>
Reply-To: flashbak@pacbell.net
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
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Earl Kwallek wrote:
> Too many (read all) campaigns I have run or played in have rapidly
> devolved into
> SPD/DEX races. the assumption being that the character with the
> greatest
> number of actions wins. Unfortunately, this is almost universally
> true.
I agree with this. And fighting it, as a GM, has always been an
incredibly hard and tiring task. Because the abusers will always try to
jusstify themselves in the most rediculous ways. But they usually fall
when I tell them to justify it with their character concept.
> Restraint? On the part of PLAYERS? You obviously have much better
> players
> than are available here in Milwaukee...
> The single question I hear most often is "What's the max DEX & SPD
> you
> allow", to which I usually answer "Since you asked, 10 & 2"
That is typical of most Champions players I have encountered. Which
can really be wearing on the nerves.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 07:36:11 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Timelines for Champions?
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At 10:30 PM 8/28/97 -0500, Tivaak wrote:
>Has anyone written up a timeline for the official Champions universe? Which
>books contain timelines? thanks.
The former official timeline for the Champions Universe is in the
Champions Universe sourcebook, as mentioned elsewhere. Golden Age of
Champions, Classic Organizations, and Justice, Not Law also have more
specific timelines, though they're not quite compatible with what's in CU.
What I've basically done for my campaign's timeline is the following:
1) I started with the CU timeline.
2) I removed references to anything that had NPC heroes experiencing
published adventures, unless the events are so tied to the campaign
background that things would change more significantly than I'd like (such
as the Day of the Destroyer or the Raid on Sanctuary) or I have absolutely
no inclination to ever run that adventure (of which nothing specific comes
to mind).
3) I worked in the details of the other timelines where they could fit.
4) I added details stemming from books published after CU (and not
addressed in JNL for whatever reason.)
5) For good measure, I finished by inventing some campaign-specific
details.
For GMs using the full published universe, this is what I recommend.
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
TRG> (All Hero Stuff that is not in BBB/Champs Delux/HSR)=(Nil)
No: (All Hero Stuff that is not in BBB/Champs Delux/HSR)=(House Rule)
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
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>>>>> "SM" == Steve McGinness <smcginn@csm.exeter.ac.uk> writes:
SM> Unless of course the speed 3 character is a big slow villain being
SM> stomped by several weeny speed 7 characters!!
Just a point, but how frequently does one find this kind of situation in
comics? Seriously, in a team story the big nasty is equal in his own right
to the entire team, or even slightly superior, requiring teamwork to take
him down.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
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>>>>> "MO" == Mike O'Connor <mjo@dojo.mi.org> writes:
MO> I'd be really bored reading some comic books if this were the case. :)
MO> If you have a cool soliloquy, you should be allowed to express yourself
MO> no matter what your SPD is.
Soliloquies take no time.
MO> Seriously, I think the initial author is pointing more to deficiencies
MO> in the END system than in SPD.
I disagree, for the most part. Movement should be based on Turns rather
than actions/segments, but Endurance use for continuous is reasonably
balanced, IMO. "The candle that burns twice as bright burns half as long."
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Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 11:16:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
From: "Mike O'Connor" <mjo@dojo.mi.org>
Reply-To: "Mike O'Connor" <mjo@dojo.mi.org>
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:-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
:
:>>>>> "MO" == Mike O'Connor <mjo@dojo.mi.org> writes:
:
:MO> I'd be really bored reading some comic books if this were the case. :)
:MO> If you have a cool soliloquy, you should be allowed to express yourself
:MO> no matter what your SPD is.
:
:Soliloquies take no time.
I was talking about the "frames in a comic book" reference. Note the
smiley face. I was saying "Soliloquies take no time" in a more obtuse
way... yes, I know that.
:MO> Seriously, I think the initial author is pointing more to deficiencies
:MO> in the END system than in SPD.
:
:I disagree, for the most part. Movement should be based on Turns rather
:than actions/segments, but Endurance use for continuous is reasonably
:balanced, IMO. "The candle that burns twice as bright burns half as long."
But that hypothetical force field isn't burning twice as bright -- it's
burning on someone who has more combat actions, which may or may not be
related to the use of the power itself.
--
Michael J. O'Connor | WWW: http://dojo.mi.org/~mjo/ | Email: mjo@dojo.mi.org
InterNIC WHOIS: MJO | (has my PGP & Geek Code info) | Phone: +1 248-848-4481
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
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>>>>> "EK" == Earl Kwallek <earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us> writes:
EK> Too many (read all) campaigns I have run or played in have rapidly
EK> devolved into SPD/DEX races. the assumption being that the character
EK> with the greatest number of actions wins. Unfortunately, this is almost
EK> universally true.
Only for a very small universe. :)
If this is happening to you then the GMs you have been involved with have
not maintained a semblance of balance. High Speed characters should
generally have smaller attacks and lower defenses than slower characters.
Otherwise yes, this will happen.
Of course, if all are built on the same point totals, someone is failing to
exploit the weaknesses (Power Limitations) of such fast, brutal characters.
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Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 10:59:11 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Point Efficiency Checklist?
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Just one small change to the previous comments.
> >13 EGO 6 I prefer 11 EGO, same ECV (4)
11 is fine if you don't want the higher Ego Roll. Otherwise stick
with 13 or, better yet, go to 14 and bump the ECV to 5 as well.
-Tim Gilberg
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
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>>>>> "MO" == Mike O'Connor <mjo@dojo.mi.org> writes:
MO> But that hypothetical force field isn't burning twice as bright -- it's
MO> burning on someone who has more combat actions, which may or may not be
MO> related to the use of the power itself.
To play Devil's advocate again, if Force Field should have END cost based
on Turns rather than action phases because it is a continuous power, all
continuous powers should have END costs based on Turns rather than action
phases. I think you can see where this rapidly devolves into something
completely broken.
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Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 11:07:56 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
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>How necessary is the SPD attribute in champions? To me, it only seems
>to slow down combat and remove a lot of "realism" from the game (not
>that I'm a fan of realism in an RPG).
>
>A few examples of problems with SPD:
>1> Guns fire more bullets in the hands of higher SPD characters.
Makes sense to me, if I move faster than you, I can shoot faster than you.
Guns don't fire normally without a trigger being pulled by something that
has "speed"
>2> A 10PD/10ED force field costs a SPD 4 character 8 END per
>turn. A 10PD/10ED force field costs a SPD 6 character 12 END per
>turn, for exactly the same amount of defense.
And that character burns the endurance for game balance to match his or her
speed. It is also possible that the SPD 6 character could slow him or
herself down to a SPD 2 if they so desire and only pay for that much
endurance, thus keeping the game balance.
>3> A player with a SPD 6 character "gets 50% more of a game" than a
>SPD 4 character.
Um....yeah, that is why they have a SPD 6.
>4> Our play group often forgets what phase it is, and has to
>backtrack and work out which action occurred when. We also often have
>players or NPCs acting out of turn accidentally.
I found it nice to have a player or secretary player that helps you keep
track of the phases and dexes so you can run the game and they can handle
the players turns.
>
>How necessary is SPD? Why not just have alternating turns, with
>"speedster" effects simulated with higher movement powers and
>autofire attacks (say, +1/4 for 2 shot AF)? Recovery would need a bit
>of a fiddle - you could make turns 5 segments long, with everyone
>getting an action every segment. "Post-12" would become "post-5"
>recovery.
This would rob a speedster tremendously in my opinion. And how would the
game speed up by reducing turns to 5 segments. Now you have more recoveries
so people are getting up quicker making fights last longer.
Just my two cents. Take it easy and talk at you later.
Sparx
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 11:18:55 -0500 (CDT)
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From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
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>
>
>At 12:45 AM 9/1/97 -0400, Doc Tough wrote:
>> <<How necessary is the SPD attribute in champions?>>
>> It is very important to the HSR system. It is one of the things that
>>made the system unique when it first came out. It prevents the system from
>>being another D&D clone.
>
>OTOH, it is possible that it gets in the way. Initiative countdowns as in
>Shadowrun and Feng Shui seem better for Speedsters. Besides, Speedsters in
>most comics only hit about as often as their opponents. They just hit with
>a >special effect< of multiple blows or whatever.
Though for the most part you defend the SPD system. I don't know how you
can say that most comic Speedsters hit about as often as the opponents.
Let's take a look at the Flash, Batman, and Spider-Man as examples. All of
the above fight "normals" on many occasions. To say that they both hit as
often as their opponents would be a lie. In fact, it would ruin the comic
as we would soon see "normals" take out the three because there are usually
3 or 4 of the opponents that Flash disarms or Batman and Spidey beat up
before they ever get the chance to move (slower SPD and Dex) so just from
the examples SPD is important both in Champions and comics.
Talk at you later.
Sparx
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 11:25:09 -0500 (CDT)
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From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
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>At 09:09 AM 9/3/97 +0100, Chris Lynch wrote:
>>I certainly have experiecned problems with the speed characteristic, with
>>people pumping higher and higher speeds into thier characters.
>
> Too many (read all) campaigns I have run or played in have rapidly
>devolved into
>SPD/DEX races. the assumption being that the character with the greatest
>number of actions wins. Unfortunately, this is almost universally true.
Yes, this is universally true, but so is the nature of the power gamer in
Champions. It is a game that seems to attract the power gamer due to the
fact that it is possible to build all sorts of characters and it is possible
to dump all sorts of points into one or two major areas. This is the job of
the GM to either put a stop to that or if that doesn't work, do as I do and
design the character for the power gamer based on his description. Usually,
I get, "That isn't as powerful as I wanted it to be." I just smile and
explain to the player that it is as powerful as *I* wanted it to be.
>
>>
>>The important thing to do with speed is to impress on people exactly how it
>>works. A character with speed 4 ( a low speed in some campaigns ) is twice
>>as fast as a normal human. This is a superpower in itself! A little control
>>on the part of players is usually enough to allow the stat to stop being
>>unworkable.
>>
>
> Restraint? On the part of PLAYERS? You obviously have much better players
>than are available here in Milwaukee...
> The single question I hear most often is "What's the max DEX & SPD you
>allow", to which I usually answer "Since you asked, 10 & 2"
Works for me, but remember many players are just asking for stats maxes, so
give some the benefit of the doubt. I always ask for maxes just so I don't
come into a game with a character out of proportion with everyone else. It
can happen easily enough.
Sparx
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 02 Sep 97 16:26:06 GMT
Subject: Is there a need for SPD?
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h > How necessary is the SPD attribute in champions? To me, it only seems
h > to slow down combat and remove a lot of "realism" from the game (not
h > that I'm a fan of realism in an RPG).
SPD is one of the most unique elements of the Hero system, though it
can be a pain to learn, once you've got it down, it captures some
aspects of comic book and cinematic genres very nicely. The SPD chart
allows for some tactics both to the benefit of high-SPD characters,
and as a balance against them.
h > A few examples of problems with SPD:
h > 1> Guns fire more bullets in the hands of higher SPD characters.
A faster person can aim and fire acurately more often in a set
period than a slower one. Not a problem really. It is odd that
semi-automatic weapons can only be fired once per phase though.
h > 2> A 10PD/10ED force field costs a SPD 4 character 8 END per
h > turn. A 10PD/10ED force field costs a SPD 6 character 12 END per
h > turn, for exactly the same amount of defense.
h > 3> A player with a SPD 6 character "gets 50% more of a game" than a
h > SPD 4 character.
Which makes up for all that extra END he's spending, doesn't it?
h > 4> Our play group often forgets what phase it is, and has to
h > backtrack and work out which action occurred when. We also often have
h > players or NPCs acting out of turn accidentally.
h >
As a GM, I keep a 12-sided die in front of me, and count off the phases
that way. (After all I don't need it to roll longsword damage vs size
L creatureas anymore)
h > How necessary is SPD? Why not just have alternating turns, with
h > "speedster" effects simulated with higher movement powers and
h > autofire attacks (say, +1/4 for 2 shot AF)? Recovery would need a bit
h > of a fiddle - you could make turns 5 segments long, with everyone
h > getting an action every segment. "Post-12" would become "post-5"
h > recovery.
SPD isn't necessary, most games get by with a simpler turn system. Hero's
SPD chart allows for fast characters to gain a reasonably advantage in
combat without completely overwhelming everyone else (the way characters
with extra actions dominate combat in Storyteller for instance).
SPD actually helps in some combats. When PC's face a large number of
lower SPD opponents, you're not spending as much time on the gumby's
phases, and the spotlight is where it belongs - on the heros.
h > This would speed up combat heaps, IMHO.
This was Fuzions aproach. Personally, I'm will to pay a small price
in play time for the benefits of the SPD charat. But then, my group
is made up of very experienced Champions players (12 years minimum),
so it's not as large a price for us.
h > SurturZ
h > --------------------------------------------------
h > David Streeter <surturz@zip.com.au>
h > Synchrotech Software
h > Pager: Dial 016020 & Quote Pager #247689 to operator
h >
h >
h > ---
h > * Origin: Usenet:Fidonet: Usenet:Synchrotech Software (1:143/241.0)
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 11:27:47 -0500 (CDT)
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Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
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>SM> Unless of course the speed 3 character is a big slow villain being
>SM> stomped by several weeny speed 7 characters!!
>
>Just a point, but how frequently does one find this kind of situation in
>comics? Seriously, in a team story the big nasty is equal in his own right
>to the entire team, or even slightly superior, requiring teamwork to take
>him down.
And that is why if you look in a lot of Champions books the big nasty has a
great deal of Speed to deal with an entire team, knowing most players
operate on a 5 or 6 speed, big villians usually start with 7 and go up from
there.
Sparx
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 11:33:31 -0500 (CDT)
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Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
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>At 04:41 PM 9/1/97 +0000, David Streeter wrote:
>>On 1 Sep 97 at 1:55, William G Geiger rhetorically propounded:
>>> I suggest you make a SPD track of 12 segments, and assign one player, not
>>> the GM, to call off each segment. He can mark the current segment with a
>>> glass bead, penny or some such thing. I pick the player who would
>>> otherwise be easiest distracted- now he has something extra to keep his
>>> attention.
>>
>>I quite like action charts, like the one provided in the old
>>Champions II. They take a while to fill out, though, and only the GM
>>can do it.
>
> The booklet accompanying the Champions GM's Shield includes (among other
>things) an action chart for just such a case. I've always filled out such
>charts, though I do it well ahead of time for any battle that's likely to
>take place during the coming session. (I do not like random encounters,
>and I try to avoid surprise fights and hope my players in any given group
>feel the same way.)
I too, usually fill out a chart of all the major attributes including speed
of all the villians I am about to run before the game ever starts. I
suppose if I get the chance to do it, I might fill in my players on the
chart too, but most of them are good enough to keep track of their own stats
and I really don't need the extra work. Speed isn't really much trouble, it
just requires a little pre-game work. But most games should have some
preparations. If you are just running a game where Team A walks in and
beats up Team B, then true enough there are some easier games to do this
with. Champions is made to be a Super Hero Game. Very seldom will you see
more than one major fight per comic, and there really shouldn't be that many
per games. Random encounters such as street gangs are something usually
take about 2 minutes for my team to burn through. "Ok, starting on 12. Ok,
post-segment 12, the gang is down, you guys recover." Maybe an
exaggeration, but remember random encounters usually don't include major
villians. Take it easy and talk at you later.
Sparx
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 02 Sep 97 17:11:08 GMT
Subject: Re: Is there a need for
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h >
h > Too many (read all) campaigns I have run or played in have rapidly
h > devolved into
h > SPD/DEX races. the assumption being that the character with the
h > greatest
h > number of actions wins. Unfortunately, this is almost universally
h > true.
h >
HA! I habitually play SPD 4 characters vs SPD 6+ and almost always
come out on top. And, I'm not just talking brick vs martial artist
either, I've played some really effective SPD 4 martial artists, too.
Though SPD does give an obvious advantage to high SPD characters, there
are checks and balance built into the mechanics of the SPD chart that
can be used to hold your own against faster character.
h > Restraint? On the part of PLAYERS? You obviously have much better
h > players
h > than are available here in Milwaukee...
Long ago, our group averaged SPD 5-6, and we considered SPD 4 slow &
whimpy. Once player started playing SPD 4 DEX 18-20 characters a lot,
before long we noticed that hey, this guy has 20 or 30 more points to
spend on his powers than we do.... and he can take Characteristic
Maxima, too... hmmmm.
h > The single question I hear most often is "What's the max DEX & SPD
h > you
h > allow", to which I usually answer "Since you asked, 10 & 2"
h >
Heheheh... I like it. :)
Though I have made my personal peace with the SPD demon, there's still
far too much DEX & SPD inflation out there.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
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Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 10:26:39 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
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At 12:01 PM 9/2/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "MO" == Mike O'Connor <mjo@dojo.mi.org> writes:
>
>MO> But that hypothetical force field isn't burning twice as bright -- it's
>MO> burning on someone who has more combat actions, which may or may not be
>MO> related to the use of the power itself.
>
>To play Devil's advocate again, if Force Field should have END cost based
>on Turns rather than action phases because it is a continuous power, all
>continuous powers should have END costs based on Turns rather than action
>phases. I think you can see where this rapidly devolves into something
>completely broken.
Maybe not completely broken, but probably too twisted to want to make
sense of.
OTOH, maybe someone can come up with a nice, *simple* Turn-based system
for Movement and Continuous Powers.
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 10:42:05 -0700
From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell)
Subject: Re: Point Efficiency Checklist?
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-> From ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net Mon Sep 1 22:51:15 1997
->
-> > I do scrutinize point breaks, so below are my remarks.
->
-> Would you mind letting me know how to determine what the point breaks
-> are?
->
Simply put, point breaks a values where rounding is in your favor when computing
some value.
For Dex, we most often divide by 3 (for CVs), so the break points are 2, 5, 8, 11, 14...
We also divide Dex by 5 (for stat rolls), which gives us 3, 8, 13, 18... as our breakpoints.
The intersection of these sets is 8, 23, 38...
For Str, we just divide by 5, so 3, 8, 13, 18... Unless you attack with your Str, in which case
you probably want an even multiple of 5.
For Con, we divide by 5 and 2 (for stun), so 3, 13, 23, 33...
For Body, no known breakpoints.
For Int, we divide by 5 sp 3, 8, 13...
For Ego, same as Dex.
For Pre, same as Str
For Com, no known breakpoints.
-Sam
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 14:05:27 -0400
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org>
Subject: Point Efficiency Checklist?
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> One problem I have when designing Champions characters is, I never
> know how to spend points efficiently. I always seem to spend points
> on things, especially stats, which do not contribute significantly to
> the character. I know that there are specific "point breaks" for
> characteristics, but I don't know what these are.
Where's the Steve Goodman School of Cost Effectiveness when you need it? :-)
Key rule: Most (if not all) point breaks are based on rounding. If you are
rounding up for a point cost, or rounding down for a roll or combat value, you
aren't getting a point break.
> When you look over characters you or somebody else has designed,
> where do you look for inefficiencies? I'd like to put together a
> checklist for myself.
Stats:
STR: PD is STR/5; STR ending in 3 or 8 gets you a round up. (Same for damage
dice.) STUN involves STR/2, so odd STR gets you a round up.
DEX: The tricky one. DEX rolls are DEX/5, so 3 and 8 work again. However, OCV
and DCV are DEX/3, so 11, 14, 17, 20, and 23 are also good. 8 and 23 are the
only places in the "normal" range where these two breakpoints meet; if neither
of those makes sense, pick which one is more important to you.
CON: See STR.
BODY: If using Impairing/Disabling wounds, an odd BODY makes you harder to
wound.
INT: /All/ official uses of INT are INT/5, so there's no reason to have INT
not ending in 3 or 8. (I encourage diversity in small ways, like a 'higher INT
wins ties' house rule.)
EGO: EGO/5 for Mental Defnse, EGO/3 for ECV...see DEX.
PRE: PRE/5 for skills and PRE attacks...3 or 8.
COM: Buy 1 point of COM for .5 and round down to 0...or watch your GM get
really upset. :-)
Figured stats don't have breakpoints...but note that you round for each stat
separately, so 13 STR 13 CON 10 BODY gets you 6 REC and 24 STUN (rather than 5
REC and 23 STUN, which is what you'd get if you added everything up and then
rounded).
Skills: Buying individual bonuses to skills tends to be inefficient; combine
into Skill Levels whenever possible. When buying Martial Arts, buy as few
maneuvers as possible; the more maneuvers you get, the less efficient the art
is (since you pay for OCV bonuses, damage, etc., again for each manuever).
Powers: Always shoot for Real Costs ending in .5, so you can round down and
get that half-point for free:
5d6 EB, OAF = 12.5 points, round to 12.
For movement powers, you want an odd number of inches (to get the extra inch
of half-move), and a total number ending in 2 or 7 (to be just below the END
breakpoint). Thus, 7", 17", and 27" are best.
Advantages: The higher the base cost, the fewer advantages you will be able to
afford. A common "efficiency" which easily becomes abuse is Advatnage Happy
Syndrome:
2d6 EB, Penetrating x4, AOE radius, x8192 radius, 0 END, Pers. Imm: 10 Base,
80 Real, grossly abusive.
Limitations: The first -1/4 saves you the most points; each -1/4 on a power
after that saves you less and less. Always try to get -1/4 on all powers (but
make it a real limitation; none of that "not when drenched in wolf's blood"
silliness).
Frameworks: /In general/, an EC for defense and movement plus a MP for attack
is the best arrangement.
> AOKI SHINJI
> 18 STR 8
> 18 DEX 24
> 15 CON 10
> 10 BODY 0
> 13 INT 3
> 13 EGO 6
> 15 PRE 5
> 10 COM 0
> 7 PD 3
> 4 ED 1
> 4 SPD 12
> 7 REC 0
> 28 END -1
> 27 STUN 0
Stats are pretty good; I'd think about CON 18.
Oh yeah: STR and CON gets you way too much in figured stats. If you find you
are buying up multiple figured stats, look at buying up STR or CON directly;
you may well end up saving points.
> 4 Weapon Bind
> 4 Martial Block
> 4 Martial Disarm
> 4 Martial Dodge
> 4 Fast Strike
> 5 Passing Strike
> 5 Sacr Strike
> 5 Off Strike
> 5 Takeaway
Too many maneuvers; for this, you could buy 8 HTH Combat Skill Levels...
> 39 13 Levels,tight group
My, how many levels you have. :-) This does make the above list of maneuvers
more efficient...I'd have to spend some time to see it could be more efficient
without so many maneuvers.
Overall, the martial arts + tons of skill levels approach is pretty powerful,
so my guess is this would be a fairly efficient character, unless you go up
against a lot of AOE or mental opponents.
Geoff Speare
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:03:34 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
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> >>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
>
> TRG> (All Hero Stuff that is not in BBB/Champs Delux/HSR)=(Nil)
>
> No: (All Hero Stuff that is not in BBB/Champs Delux/HSR)=(House Rule)
Hmmm. I think that, in this case, the term "house rule" seems to
have a bit of a stigma. Most of these rules really could be considered
official; many are heavily-enough used to be considered the "standard".
Calling them "house rules" makes it seem to be a minor varient.
The fact is here that we do have much more than is just in
BBB/CD/HSR. This is a good thing because those works have holes in them
when it comes to certain areas.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:06:47 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Question about "Linked"
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> > Now, now. Even though I know not what side of the debate you rest
> >upon, I know of no argument about this aspect of linked.
> >
> > BTW, you are one of the *good* guys, right?
>
> Uh... Why, yes! Of course I am!
> [*whew*]
Um, yeah.
OK then, move along.
[wipes forehead]
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:10:21 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Champions books, short reviews?
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> Olympians: A good concept and relatively well-executed. This brings
> the Greek gods to the Champions Universe in much the same way that Mighty
> Thor brought the Norse gods to the Marvel Universe. Unless you plan on
> actually using at least one of the gods, though, it's not much use other
> than as background (this being the only real weakness).
I guess I'll add to this that I _have_ found some non-background
use in the character of Ares. As the book suggests, he is leading a team
of super-villian mercinaries, and the heroes in my campaign have run up
against him.
> Dark Champions: This is a handy if you want to add any level of
> "realism" to your game, whether you decide to run a down-to-earth group of
> vigilantes or just include a "dark knight" type in your four-color group.
> Gun and vehicle lists, descriptions of real-world organized crime groups, a
> discussion of the law as it might pertain to superheroes, character
> creation and combat options, and even the new character write-ups can add a
> bit of grit to just about any campaign. It's not the best Hero Games ever
> put out, but it's near the top of the list.
Wow, yet another entusiastic review. Where have all the Steve
Long critics gone? Have we converted them?
-Tim Gilberg
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
BG> I would say that having -15 points of EB would have only the effect
BG> of keeping you from recovering the first useful points of EB back any
BG> time soon.
I do not like it, but I could live with it.
[...]
BG> What about the proposed suggestion of having death occur when BODY
BG> is drained to negative BODY (rather than to 0)?
Given my stance this is impossible, that adjustment powers should not be
inherently lethal, it should be impossible to adjust Body below 1.
BG> Would that really step on the KAs all that much? (Does someone want to
BG> crunch the numbers on that one?)
Okay... assuming a character with 10 Body and 10 points of resistant
defense and no Power Defense -- not too bad for a street-level superhero.
To kill him outright with a KA you need to do 30 points of Body damage, 10
stopped by defenses plus 20 more to actually kill him. That requires, on
average, 8.5D6K with an active cost of 127.5
To do the same with a Drain, based on the premise of death at 0, you need
to drain 10 Body, or 20 active points worth. That requires, on average,
6D6 of Drain with an active cost of 60 points, or 90 if you want to make it
a ranged attack.
So, you can see that in a campaign where Power Defense is unusual (which is
just about all of them), allowing adjustment powers to be lethal not only
walks all over Killing Attacks, it does so with a 25-50% cost break.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
TRG> Calling them "house rules" makes it seem to be a minor varient.
Okay, how about "officially published rules variants", which is what the
HSA are, after all.
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Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 14:58:17 -0700
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
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At 04:47 PM 9/2/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>So, you can see that in a campaign where Power Defense is unusual (which is
>just about all of them), allowing adjustment powers to be lethal not only
>walks all over Killing Attacks, it does so with a 25-50% cost break.
>
Except that KAs don't begin to "heal" almost immediately. Factor in the
cost to get the return rate down to where the target 'heals' at the same
rate he would from a KA, and Adjustment powers become a lot more expensive.
(I might say that any Drain which heals at a rate FASTER than normal
healing cannot kill;it can only put someone in a deathlike coma. But if
you've bought up the recovery time to KA-equivalent levels, then you've got
an equivalent of the old 'Destroy' power, and that ought to kill.)
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
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>>>>> "JD" == Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> writes:
JD> So, a lethal (on average) in one shot RKA costs 127.5 points.
JD> And a lethal (on average) in one shot Drain v. Body costs 180 points.
In which case, why would you want to use Drain if your intent is to kill?
RKA is undeniably the power to use if you want to kill something, and it
costs less.
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From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford)
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 22:19:25 GMT
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On 02 Sep 1997 16:47:03 -0400, you wrote:
>Okay... assuming a character with 10 Body and 10 points of resistant
>defense and no Power Defense -- not too bad for a street-level superhero.
>
>To kill him outright with a KA you need to do 30 points of Body damage, 10
>stopped by defenses plus 20 more to actually kill him. That requires, on
>average, 8.5D6K with an active cost of 127.5
>
>To do the same with a Drain, based on the premise of death at 0, you need
>to drain 10 Body, or 20 active points worth. That requires, on average,
>6D6 of Drain with an active cost of 60 points, or 90 if you want to make it
>a ranged attack.
You are cheating by assuming the RKA has to inflict 30 points of Body
(10 for the resistant defense and 20 to reduce him to -10) and then
changing the rules for Body Drain by claiming reducing the target to 0
Body will be fatal.
If you apply the same rules (needing to get the target to -10 for the
attack to be fatal) you will need 120 or 180 active points to Drain
the Body down to -10. The lower point total is not comparable to the
RKA cost, since the latter has a ranged attack.
>So, you can see that in a campaign where Power Defense is unusual (which is
>just about all of them), allowing adjustment powers to be lethal not only
>walks all over Killing Attacks, it does so with a 25-50% cost break.
Only by applying two different versions of what is a "fatal" attack.
Making the rules the same for both attacks means Drains are still more
expensive than straightforward killing attacks.
John Lansford
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Point Efficiency Checklist?
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>>>>> "DS" == David Streeter <surturz@zip.com.au> writes:
DS> I just worked out last night that a STR or CON ending in 9 is more
DS> efficient than one ending in 8, inasmuch as the extra point costs you
DS> nothing if you can reduce your points spent on STUN by 1.
The thing is, that extra 1 point is less cost-effective than you seem to
think. In addition to the 1/2d6 of Strength damage, those three points of
Strength give you 1 point of PD (1AP), 1 point of REC (2AP), 2 points of
Stun (2AP), +1 to Strength rolls (3AP). That is a total of 8 active points
worth of stuff for a 3 point expenditure. The extra 1 point of Strength
gives you 1 point of Stun without affecting anything else. Three for one
vs. one for one; you can see that Strength is an incredible bargain.
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Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 23:22:04 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
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> But, Mr. Greenwade wasn't the one who said you just had to Drain someone to
> zero. In fact, he expressed his opinion in the same post you were
> responding to (look above). I think *I* was the *only* one to bring up the
> Drain to zero as instant death, and I've rethought it since.
[cut of example]
> So, a lethal (on average) in one shot RKA costs 127.5 points.
> And a lethal (on average) in one shot Drain v. Body costs 180 points.
Rat was going on the premise that the Bod drain would kill at
negative _current_ BOD. I.e, dead at 0.
This was to quikly point out why this is not a good idea and
should not be used as a house rule, or any type of rule. However, as
you've pointed out, requiring a drain all the way too negative original
BOD make this much more in line with other powers. However, I'd add that
it wouldn't cause blleding and would not cause the loss of 1 BOD point at
the end of every turn.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 23:22:57 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
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>
> TRG> Calling them "house rules" makes it seem to be a minor varient.
>
> Okay, how about "officially published rules variants", which is what the
> HSA are, after all.
Fair 'nuff.
-Tim Gilberg
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 00:53:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
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From: willggeiger@juno.com (William G Geiger)
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Once I was accused of never GMing stupid villains. In our game, several
standard Viper agents held off our superhero team, successfully using
military tactics. They were SPD 3, DEX 15-. It's not how fast you are,
it's how fast you take care of business.
Aloha, WillGGeiger@juno.com
On Tue, 02 Sep 1997 07:29:48 -0700 Darrin Kelley <flashbak@pacbell.net>
writes:
>Earl Kwallek wrote:
>
>> Too many (read all) campaigns I have run or played in have rapidly
>> devolved into
>> SPD/DEX races. the assumption being that the character with the
>> greatest
>> number of actions wins. Unfortunately, this is almost universally
>> true.
>
> I agree with this. And fighting it, as a GM, has always been an
>incredibly hard and tiring task. Because the abusers will always try
>to
>jusstify themselves in the most rediculous ways. But they usually fall
>when I tell them to justify it with their character concept.
>
>
>> Restraint? On the part of PLAYERS? You obviously have much better
>> players
>> than are available here in Milwaukee...
>> The single question I hear most often is "What's the max DEX & SPD
>> you
>> allow", to which I usually answer "Since you asked, 10 & 2"
>
> That is typical of most Champions players I have encountered.
>Which
>can really be wearing on the nerves.
>
>
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 22:55:03 -0600
From: Curtis Gibson <Mhoram@apeleon.net>
Subject: Re: Fractional SPD
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> At 08:02 AM 9/1/97 -0400, Mike O'Connor wrote:
> >One of the things I had experimented with is the notion of fractional
> >SPDs... roll dice to see if your 4.5 SPD functioned as "4" or "5".
> >I limited it to increments of .5, then I used a computer to generate
> >action charts for everyone and drew an action chart at random. But
> >it was too complicated and I gave that up.
>
> An idea I toyed with re: fractional SPD was to allow someone with a
> half-mark of SPD to move as though he had twice that SPD, but only every
> other Phase. Thus your guy with SPD 4.5 would get Phases on segments 2, 4,
> 7, 10, and 12 on the first Turn, and 3, 6, 8, and 11 on the second Turn.
> It's still more complicated than basic Hero combat, but not as bad as your
> system.
> Mind you, I've never actually tried this; I've only ruminated on it.
Something use in my campaigns to good effect; buying activating speed.
The character rolls in 12 (or post 12) and if the speed activates they
run at the higher speed the next turn.
It is especially appriopriate for martial artists types who train thier
speed up. Start at an 8- then 11- then 14- then normal. As a point
comparison an 11- point of speed cost the same as a half point, and
(statistically) runs the same as the example above.
--
-Mhoram
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your
two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 01:34:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
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From: willggeiger@juno.com (William G Geiger)
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In addition to the quicker recovery from a standard BODY Drain, and the
bleeding from a KA mentioned by others, consider also that if you roll
too low on that "one shot KA," you've still likely stunned your foe. The
BODY Drain user enjoys no such advantage.
Why buy BODY Drain with the intent to kill someone, instead of KA? If
your special effect demands it, then you purchase it. I built a villain
team called the Outriders, carriers of disease. Mind you, they tended to
finish their ill victims off with antique weapons.
Aloha, WillGGeiger@juno.com
From: Firelynx16@aol.com
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 02:01:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
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In a message dated 97-09-03 01:38:05 EDT, you write:
<< Okay... assuming a character with 10 Body and 10 points of resistant
defense and no Power Defense -- not too bad for a street-level superhero.
To kill him outright with a KA you need to do 30 points of Body damage, 10
stopped by defenses plus 20 more to actually kill him. That requires, on
average, 8.5D6K with an active cost of 127.5
To do the same with a Drain, based on the premise of death at 0, you need
to drain 10 Body, or 20 active points worth. That requires, on average,
6D6 of Drain with an active cost of 60 points, or 90 if you want to make it
a ranged attack.
So, you can see that in a campaign where Power Defense is unusual (which is
just about all of them), allowing adjustment powers to be lethal not only
walks all over Killing Attacks, it does so with a 25-50% cost break.
>>
But if you work it where you need to Drain to negative Body, as I have always
thought it worked and others have suggested, it would work out almost equal
HTH, or even cost more if ranged. Just something to consider.
Later,
'Lynx
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
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Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 08:56:19 +0100
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I often use a body drain to simulate power depressants or effects that
place people in a state of suspended animation for a long period.
One example was a ice/cold based character who had a linked entangle and
body drain with a slow recovery. When hit by his "big block of ice around
you trick-la iceman" you where so shocked by the cold that you would take
weeks or even months to recover properly from the damage to your system.
You could even be technically dead at first, slowly thawing out later (as
we ALL know, if you freeze something really fast it will thaw out with not
much damage........... it's a game OK?!)
TTFN from Chris!
http://www.lynch1.demon.co.uk
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
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Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 09:09:27 +0100
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I certainly have experiecned problems with the speed characteristic, with
people pumping higher and higher speeds into thier characters.
The speed stat certainly has it's merits, especially when you look at
characters like Batman, the Punisher or Dardevil. It is the hallmark of
these type of characters to get the first few hits in, usually taking down
thier assailants before they have had a chance to strike back.
I agree that several of the Flash's and Quicksilvers better tricks
(disarming entire rooms of people in a second) are better simulated with
autofires and/or area effects, but these chracters are still justified in
having high speeds to refelct thier reaction times and all the non-combat
things they could be doing.
If a character is worried that he is spending too much END to run his
forcefield just because he is fast then I often let END considerations
slide if the player is prepared to do NOTHING with that phase. If he holds
his phase though, he pays for it.
The important thing to do with speed is to impress on people exactly how it
works. A character with speed 4 ( a low speed in some campaigns ) is twice
as fast as a normal human. This is a superpower in itself! A little control
on the part of players is usually enough to allow the stat to stop being
unworkable.
TTFN from Chris!
http://www.lynch1.demon.co.uk
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 16:33:44 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Campaign Questionnaires
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>What is the state of common knowledge wrt:
> - Magic
> - Psi Powers
> - Undersea Peoples & Civilizations (e.g. Atlantis)
> - Underground Peoples & Civilizations
> - Extraterrestrial Peoples & Civilizations
> - Extra-dimensional Peoples & Civilizations
> - Mythically Famous Deities and Demons (Thor, Zeus, Satan, etc.)
> - Small, far-away countries ruled by and/or populated by Supers (e.g.
>Latavia)
>Are these things commonly known to exist? If so, what is commonly known about
>them?
>
What about super-tech/meta-tech/ultra-tech? If you have heroes in
Powered Armor, this would be a consideration.
- Jerry
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 97 06:54:56 -0400
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
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Stainless Steel Rat ratinox@peorth.gweep.net 9/2/97 5:58 PM
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>> "JD" == Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> writes:
>
>JD> So, a lethal (on average) in one shot RKA costs 127.5 points.
>JD> And a lethal (on average) in one shot Drain v. Body costs 180 points.
>
>In which case, why would you want to use Drain if your intent is to kill?
>RKA is undeniably the power to use if you want to kill something, and it
>costs less.
You're right, Rat. Iff the intent is to kill, then KAs are what you want.
However, this thread got started by the question, what happens if a drain
reaches the level of -BODY which isn't necessarily the same thing at all.
So the question is _can_ an adjustment power kill, not is it the efficient
or prefered manner to do so. Given that it's much more expensive to do it
that way, and the relative unlikelihood of that really being the primary
intent of the SFX, I can't see any real balance problems with allowing it
"as a house rule", if you like.
Comments: Authenticated sender is <surturz@mail.zip.com.au>
From: "David Streeter" <surturz@zip.com.au>
Organization: Synchrotech Software
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 11:11:59 +0000
Subject: Re: Point Efficiency Checklist?
Reply-to: surturz@zip.com.au
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On 2 Sep 97 at 14:05, Geoffrey Speare rhetorically propounded:
> > One problem I have when designing Champions characters is, I never
> > know how to spend points efficiently. I always seem to spend points
> > on things, especially stats, which do not contribute significantly to
> > the character. I know that there are specific "point breaks" for
> > characteristics, but I don't know what these are.
>
> Where's the Steve Goodman School of Cost Effectiveness when you need it? :-)
>
> Key rule: Most (if not all) point breaks are based on rounding. If you are
> rounding up for a point cost, or rounding down for a roll or combat value, you
> aren't getting a point break.
>
<snip>
I just worked out last night that a STR or CON ending in 9 is more
efficient than one ending in 8, inasmuch as the extra point costs you
nothing if you can reduce your points spent on STUN by 1. This is
after ten years of making characters with STRs and CONs of 18 :-)
Here's part of an article I'm working on that deals with point breaks
SurturZ
----------------------------------------
2) ROUNDOFFS
Because figured characteristic calculations round off in the
character's favour, picking the ending number makes up to a three
point difference. The following tables show the savings in increasing
your STR or CON to unusual numbers:
STR 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
----------------------------------------------------------------
STR* 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
PD* 0 0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -2 -2
REC* 0 0 0 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -4 -4
STUN* 0 -1 -1 -2 -2 -3 -3 -4 -4 -5
SAVING 0 0 -1 2 1 1 0 0 2 2
CON 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
----------------------------------------------------------------
CON* 0 2 4 6 8 10 12 14 16 18
PD* 0 0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -2 -2
REC* 0 0 0 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -4 -4
END* 0 -1 -2 -3 -4 -5 -6 -7 -8 -9
STUN* 0 -1 -1 -2 -2 -3 -3 -4 -4 -5
SAVING 0 0 -1 2 1 1 0 0 2 2
Asterisks (*) denote the change to the cost of the characteristic.
It's easiest to think of these as package deals. For example if you
increase your CON from 30 to 39 and keep your figureds the same value,
you will save 2 points if you can reduce the cost of your PD by 2
(i.e. your base PD goes up by two, but your actual PD stays the same),
REC cost by 4, END cost by 9, and STUN cost by 5. Remember that you
can only buy down one figured stat below zero.
As you can see, numbers ending in 3, 8 and 9 are the most efficient.
Numbers ending in 9 are slightly better than numbers ending in 8
merely because your STR or CON will be that one point higher. It is
never worth having a STR or CON ending in "2".
If you use your STR to do damage, you may consider ending in a "0" or
"5" anyway, rather than a "3" or "9", merely for the convenience of
not having to roll half dice (another way to look at it is that going
from a half dice to a full dice extra damage only costs one point).
From: ErolB1@aol.com
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 07:46:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
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In a message dated 97-09-01 09:04:47 EDT, mjo@dojo.mi.org writes:
> One of the things I had experimented with is the notion of fractional
> SPDs... roll dice to see if your 4.5 SPD functioned as "4" or "5".
> I limited it to increments of .5, then I used a computer to generate
> action charts for everyone and drew an action chart at random. But
> it was too complicated and I gave that up.
One of the things I threatened to do with Brick (my DEX 43 SPD 2 combat
monster) is to buy a third point of SPD with the lim "Requires an Activation
Roll." I never actually did this, but as I saw things, there were a few
different ways of handling it:
1. Roll Activation at the beginning of the turn. If successful, the character
has SPD 3 that turn, otherwise he has SPD 2.
2. Roll Activation on Seg 4. If successful, the character has SPD 3 with
Phases on Segs 4,6, and 12. Otherwise he has SPD 2 with Phases on Segs 6 and
12.
3. The character always has Phases on Segs 8 and 12, and has a Phase on Seg 4
if and only if he makes the Activation Roll.
Erol K. Bayburt
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow
From: ErolB1@aol.com
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 07:46:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Campaign Questionnaires
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I recently joined a 4-color Champions game, and I found the background
information a bit thin. This inspired me to write up a "campaign
questionnaire" addressed to the GM: Something whose answers should help me,
as a player, better understand the GM's world.
**************************************************
Four-Color Campaign Questionnaire:
Which Supers, Super-groups and Evil Organizations out there are
- World Famous?
- Nationally Famous?
- Locally Famous?
And what does common knowledge say about them?
What Supers-related government organizations are there out there that are as
well known as, say, the CIA or UNICEF are in the real world? And what does
common knowledge say about them?
What is the state of common knowledge wrt:
- Magic
- Psi Powers
- Undersea Peoples & Civilizations (e.g. Atlantis)
- Underground Peoples & Civilizations
- Extraterrestrial Peoples & Civilizations
- Extra-dimensional Peoples & Civilizations
- Mythically Famous Deities and Demons (Thor, Zeus, Satan, etc.)
- Small, far-away countries ruled by and/or populated by Supers (e.g.
Latavia)
Are these things commonly known to exist? If so, what is commonly known about
them?
What is the general opinion of...
-the man in the street
-local police & authorities
-federal agents
toward Superheroes? Are there large subsets who are particularly hostile or
friendly toward Superheroes? Are there particular subsets of Super-types
(e.g. Mutants) who people are particularly hostile/friendly toward? And for
police & other authorities, what is the difference between the official
position and the unofficial, actual position?
****************************************************************
In return, I asked for a questionnaire to help players understand my fantasy
campaign. They sent me one (which I'm still in the process of trying to
answer), but I'll leave it to them to post it. (Vox?)
I'd like to ask the assembled Great Minds here if they see any important
questions that I missed. Also, I'd like to ask if anyone can come up with
questionnaires for other genres (e.g. espionage, old west, science
fiction/space opera, cyberpunk, etc.)
Erol K. Bayburt
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow
Comments: Authenticated sender is <surturz@mail.zip.com.au>
From: "David Streeter" <surturz@zip.com.au>
Organization: Synchrotech Software
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 11:51:44 +0000
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
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On 2 Sep 97 at 11:07, Sparx rhetorically propounded:
> This would rob a speedster tremendously in my opinion. And how would the
> game speed up by reducing turns to 5 segments. Now you have more recoveries
> so people are getting up quicker making fights last longer.
Not really. People on average have around 5 phases per turn. So even
though the ratio of recoveries:segment is higher, recoveries:phase is
about the same.
When I say "speeding up combat", I'm talking about real time, not
game time.
My ideal "ordinary Champions combat" is this:
5 PCs, 3 Villains and 10 Agents, perhaps a couple of NPCs/hostages
2 hours real time
5 minutes game time
Heroes don't die, but at least one knocked unconscious, takes some
BODY, or loses a focus.
It looks like I'm alone in arguing this thread. I agree that changing
the SPD rules for more consistency would alter the combat system
markedly. I'm still not convinced that SPD makes the game more
enjoyable, though.
SurturZ
P.S. can anyone tell me why not all the reply-to fields in champions
list messages are set to champs-l@omg.org??
--------------------------------------------------
David Streeter <surturz@zip.com.au>
Synchrotech Software
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Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 07:09:12 -0500
From: Earl Kwallek <earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us>
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
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At 11:25 AM 9/2/97 -0500, Sparx wrote:
>Yes, this is universally true, but so is the nature of the power gamer in
>Champions. It is a game that seems to attract the power gamer due to the
>fact that it is possible to build all sorts of characters and it is possible
>to dump all sorts of points into one or two major areas. This is the job of
>the GM to either put a stop to that or if that doesn't work, do as I do and
>design the character for the power gamer based on his description. Usually,
>I get, "That isn't as powerful as I wanted it to be." I just smile and
>explain to the player that it is as powerful as *I* wanted it to be.
I've played with the idea of havinf everyone submit a character
background & summary, and writing the actual character sheets myself. The
one time I tried to implement it, everyone dropped the game like a
cockroach infested burger.
>> Restraint? On the part of PLAYERS? You obviously have much better players
>>than are available here in Milwaukee...
>> The single question I hear most often is "What's the max DEX & SPD you
>>allow", to which I usually answer "Since you asked, 10 & 2"
>
>Works for me, but remember many players are just asking for stats maxes, so
>give some the benefit of the doubt. I always ask for maxes just so I don't
>come into a game with a character out of proportion with everyone else. It
>can happen easily enough.
>
Which is why I give people desirable ranges for all important
stats/abilities. For example:
*Note: it is allowed to exceed these ranges, with corresponding
weaknesses in other areas....
Attacks 50-75 active pts 60 Avg
Defense 20-45 PD/ED 30 Avg
r Defense 10-45 15 Avg for Non-Bricks
DEX 18-28 23 Avg
SPD 4-6 5 Avg
Etc....
What I usually get is characters with 75 AP in attacks (or an attack
Multipower at 60 or 75 AP), 35-45 PD/ED, 25+ RDef, 28+ DEX, 7+ SPD....
ie: All the goddamn players go for the extreme maximum end of the ranges I
give, or try to go over them. I'm not inclined to spend the first 2-10 game
sessions arguing with players over the power levels of their characters.
It doesn't much matter anymore, since everyone I game with is pretty
tired of Superheroes right now anyways.
Earl Kwallek - Earl@TheWarren.Mil.Wi.US
A Man with a gun is a citizen;
a man without a gun is a subject.
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Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 07:24:24 -0500
From: Earl Kwallek <earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us>
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
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At 04:47 PM 9/2/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>Okay... assuming a character with 10 Body and 10 points of resistant
>defense and no Power Defense -- not too bad for a street-level superhero.
>
>To kill him outright with a KA you need to do 30 points of Body damage, 10
>stopped by defenses plus 20 more to actually kill him. That requires, on
>average, 8.5D6K with an active cost of 127.5
>
>To do the same with a Drain, based on the premise of death at 0, you need
>to drain 10 Body, or 20 active points worth. That requires, on average,
>6D6 of Drain with an active cost of 60 points, or 90 if you want to make it
>a ranged attack.
>
>So, you can see that in a campaign where Power Defense is unusual (which is
>just about all of them), allowing adjustment powers to be lethal not only
>walks all over Killing Attacks, it does so with a 25-50% cost break.
But, using the "negative BODY" rule, as specifically stated in Almanac I;
you need to drain 20 BODY (40 APts) or 12d6 (120 pts or 180 for ranged).
What seems to be the problem now?
If you intend to use the "negative" rules from Almanac MAKE SURE YOU READ
THEM COMPLETELY! A body drained person dies at negative thier ORIGINAL BODY!
Earl Kwallek - Earl@TheWarren.Mil.Wi.US
A Man with a gun is a citizen;
a man without a gun is a subject.
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 07:36:03 -0600
From: Curtis Gibson <Mhoram@apeleon.net>
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
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Earl Kwallek wrote:
> I've played with the idea of havinf everyone submit a character
> background & summary, and writing the actual character sheets myself. The
> one time I tried to implement it, everyone dropped the game like a
> cockroach infested burger.
To be honest, I wouldn't want to play in a campaign where the GM wrote
my character. building the character is the way I get to know the
personality beforehand. It makes things much more personal.
> Which is why I give people desirable ranges for all important
> stats/abilities. For example:
> *Note: it is allowed to exceed these ranges, with corresponding
> weaknesses in other areas....
>
> Attacks 50-75 active pts 60 Avg
> Defense 20-45 PD/ED 30 Avg
> r Defense 10-45 15 Avg for Non-Bricks
>
> DEX 18-28 23 Avg
> SPD 4-6 5 Avg
>
> Etc....
>
> What I usually get is characters with 75 AP in attacks (or an attack
> Multipower at 60 or 75 AP), 35-45 PD/ED, 25+ RDef, 28+ DEX, 7+ SPD....
>
> ie: All the goddamn players go for the extreme maximum end of the ranges I
> give, or try to go over them. I'm not inclined to spend the first 2-10 game
> sessions arguing with players over the power levels of their characters.
Much like you I give out ranges and maxes, however I have a Beginning
max, and a total max. I inform the players that in one (maybe two) areas
can thier charcters exceed beginning max, and let them know up front
that any character breaking those numbers will be summarily rejected. I
usually put the beginning maxes at just a tich over what I want the
average to be. It seem to work out well.
>
> Earl Kwallek - Earl@TheWarren.Mil.Wi.US
--
-Mhoram
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your
two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 07:41:43 -0600
From: Curtis Gibson <Mhoram@apeleon.net>
Subject: Re: Campaign Questionnaires
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ErolB1@aol.com wrote:
>
> I recently joined a 4-color Champions game, and I found the background
> information a bit thin. This inspired me to write up a "campaign
> questionnaire" addressed to the GM: Something whose answers should help me,
> as a player, better understand the GM's world.
> I'd like to ask the assembled Great Minds here if they see any important
> questions that I missed. Also, I'd like to ask if anyone can come up with
> questionnaires for other genres (e.g. espionage, old west, science
> fiction/space opera, cyberpunk, etc.)
Other Super Questions....
Why are there supers in your world (ie ancient genetic tampering,
Wildcards virus ect)? And this question I wouldn't expect the GM to tell
the players, just that he knows what it is. I had mine planned and 8
years later only 2 PCs know the answer; big mystery in the campaign.
When did supers in costumes first appear.
What (fictional) laws would supers need to know about to function.
Are there any major social changes because of supers?
(To me a prime example would be ATMs. If bricks are fairly common, why
rob banks just rip up ATMs. Enough of this and ATMs dissapear.)
>
> Erol K. Bayburt
> Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow
--
-Mhoram
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your
two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 07:45:08 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
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At 10:53 AM 9/2/97 -0400, you wrote:
>SM> Unless of course the speed 3 character is a big slow villain being
>SM> stomped by several weeny speed 7 characters!!
>
>Just a point, but how frequently does one find this kind of situation in
>comics? Seriously, in a team story the big nasty is equal in his own right
>to the entire team, or even slightly superior, requiring teamwork to take
>him down.
Well, there's always the classic old superhero team vs giant monster or
living planet scenario, but you're right in that this is relatively rare.
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 09:57:33 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
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> What I usually get is characters with 75 AP in attacks (or an attack
> Multipower at 60 or 75 AP), 35-45 PD/ED, 25+ RDef, 28+ DEX, 7+ SPD....
>
> ie: All the goddamn players go for the extreme maximum end of the ranges I
> give, or try to go over them. I'm not inclined to spend the first 2-10 game
> sessions arguing with players over the power levels of their characters.
> It doesn't much matter anymore, since everyone I game with is pretty
> tired of Superheroes right now anyways.
Hmmmm. I've been a little luckier mostly becaue I have some
players that are way toward the Role-Playing end of things. For some of
my players however I've taken to building the characters myself based upon
their loose outlines. Heck for some of the newbies I gave out characters
that seemed to fit the players -- the campaign wnet wonderfully.
> A Man with a gun is a citizen;
> a man without a gun is a subject.
I like that line.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 09:59:05 -0500 (CDT)
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From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
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>Since their seems to be a general feeling on this list that SPD is
>heavily abused by players in most games, I had some suggestions on
>how to deal with this.
>
>First, change movement to a per Turn basis. This eliminates one of
>the advantages to SPD right there. It also prevents a high-speed
>character with Normal Characteristic Maxima from running at 30 MPH,
>unless you set the new running maxima to 4 times the old one.
>
>Now, a character who wants to be very fast no longer has an incentive
>to buy a high SPD. After all, just because they can fly very fast
>doesn't necessarily mean they need a high SPD. Also, it might be
>interesting to have a character who can run super fast, but has a low
>SPD. (Can _you_ accurately shoot a target while running at 100 MPH?)
Yeah, but this makes for a sad day, when Batman or Spider-Man or the Flash
now hits the street thug as often as the street thug gets to hit them.
>Lastly, you might try a version of the Rule of X from Fuzion that
>incorporates SPD, as a house rule (No, not FUZION!!!
>AAAIIIIEEEE!!!!) Put a limit in your champaign something like
>this (X = character's largest DC + OCV+2xSPD), with a champaign
>maximum that fits your campaign. Thus, the faster character must have
>weaker attacks or be less accurate or both the faster he/she is. This
>imposes yet another limit on Speed abuse.
Or, you might just want to put a limit on Speed in general. Such as, no one
with over a Speed of 6 or everyone must have a Speed of 5.
Sparx
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 10:09:43 -0500 (CDT)
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From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
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>On 2 Sep 97 at 11:07, Sparx rhetorically propounded:
>
>> This would rob a speedster tremendously in my opinion. And how would the
>> game speed up by reducing turns to 5 segments. Now you have more recoveries
>> so people are getting up quicker making fights last longer.
>
>Not really. People on average have around 5 phases per turn. So even
>though the ratio of recoveries:segment is higher, recoveries:phase is
>about the same.
Actually if you are giving Post-5 Recoveries now, then recovery is faster.
I find that post-12 recovery has brought many downed players and opponents
back into a fight when it was thought they were out. If you are giving a
post-5 recovery, you are going to find a lot more people getting back up a
lot more often as opposed to say that 6 or 7 speeder beating on the poor 5
speeder a few more times before that post-12. OR even a few 5 speeders
beating on that poor 5 speeder before post-12.
>When I say "speeding up combat", I'm talking about real time, not
>game time.
>
>My ideal "ordinary Champions combat" is this:
>
>5 PCs, 3 Villains and 10 Agents, perhaps a couple of NPCs/hostages
>2 hours real time
>5 minutes game time
>Heroes don't die, but at least one knocked unconscious, takes some
>BODY, or loses a focus.
Oh, I agree with you completely here. I lost a whole game night to a fight
of 14 supers. 7 good, 7 bad. I was really hoping the fight wouldn't take 2
hours and I did everything I could to streamline it. Charts that showed me
everyone's speed and everything. Truthfully though, I knew it was going to
take some time. A hex map helps if you aren't using one. Charts are a big
bonus, player cooperation, and an assistant are all real useful things in
speeding up real time fights. Also, don't make your game a hack and slash.
If the entire point of your Super Hero game is to move from fight to fight
then Champions is going to get old for you real quick and I suggest looking
for a quicker system altogether. We've played 2 or 3 four hour games in a
row without so much as one small combat. I don't mean to insult you if you
do too, I'm just making a point.
>It looks like I'm alone in arguing this thread. I agree that changing
>the SPD rules for more consistency would alter the combat system
>markedly. I'm still not convinced that SPD makes the game more
>enjoyable, though.
It does and it doesn't. It isn't so much the Speed system that makes the
game enjoyable it is the fact that your Super Hero should be able move a bit
faster then some and a bit slower than others as reflected in the comics.
This is best reflected in the Speed system. Movement just doesn't cut it
when it comes to a fight. So what if I'm running 400" it really doesn't
matter if Joe Thug gets to hit me as often as I hit him and *I* move 400".
Get the point. I did like the suggestion offered by someone, just have a
one segment turn and give the players actions equal to their speed. This
might speed up the system and I'm almost tempted to try it, though I could
see some players taking major advantage of it, and fights ending real quick
as Speed Demon pulls off 7 actions before anyone else does. Though a more
Rifts like system where you role for initiative between each action might
work. Don't know. Might mess around with it.
Sparx
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 10:17:43 -0500 (CDT)
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From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Is there a need for SPD?)
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>At 11:25 AM 9/2/97 -0500, Sparx wrote:
>>Yes, this is universally true, but so is the nature of the power gamer in
>>Champions. It is a game that seems to attract the power gamer due to the
>>fact that it is possible to build all sorts of characters and it is possible
>>to dump all sorts of points into one or two major areas. This is the job of
>>the GM to either put a stop to that or if that doesn't work, do as I do and
>>design the character for the power gamer based on his description. Usually,
>>I get, "That isn't as powerful as I wanted it to be." I just smile and
>>explain to the player that it is as powerful as *I* wanted it to be.
>
> I've played with the idea of havinf everyone submit a character
>background & summary, and writing the actual character sheets myself. The
>one time I tried to implement it, everyone dropped the game like a
>cockroach infested burger.
Well, usually, I make it fair and all characters are balanced out with each
other. If they drop it, then I've done my job of curbing the power gamer
because he isn't going to ruin the game for everyone else. I've had one
stay and actually enjoy the characters I've created for him once he gets
over his depression of not being the most powerful. All, of a sudden he
realized it is a game of trying to do your best with what you got and there
is actual room for character growth and power. Note: I usually don't make
characters for my players, just ones that request either because they don't
know how or don't feel like doing it, and the ones I know are power gamers.
Usually I tell them that I want to do it for game balance and that works for
them. If they walk, they walk, the other 5 or 6 players are glad not to
have the overpower in the game. Take it easy and talk at you later.
Sparx
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 10:24:58 -0500 (CDT)
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From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Curbing the Power Gamer was ( Is there a need for SPD?)
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>To be honest, I wouldn't want to play in a campaign where the GM wrote
>my character. building the character is the way I get to know the
>personality beforehand. It makes things much more personal.
I agree, but how much more personal can you get to know the character if you
write down every power, quirk, and personality about the character. I'm
just doing the math part and the restricting part. As stated about the
ranges, most players choose the max range. As the GM, I don't if I'm
working on someone's character. As I said in my earlier post, I usually
don't build my player's characters. I've done it for those who don't feel
like it, those who don't know how, and those who I feel power game. For all
of them though, I ask for character concept the more detailed the better. I
tend not to sit down and build a character for someone. That does take away
the personal aspect of the game. I will offer suggestions if I see fit, but
I usually don't enforce them, unless it is, "NO, you can't have a 30d6 RKA
Area of Attack" trust me, it has gotten this bad, though that may have been
a bit of an exaggeration. Just as a side note here, I've just started a
campaign at a local comic book store and since I didn't know the people
(powergamers or not?) and how new they were at the system, I built a team of
characters and had the players choose from that team. Seems like I got all
veteran players and one new player. The veterans are enjoying a change of
pace from their normal characters and are sticking with the pre-generated
characters trying to breathe the personal aspect into them. Doing a good
job at it too.
Talk at you later.
Sparx
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 22:34:57 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Player Overconfidence v. Character Overconfidence
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I run a fairly conservative game (I think): 250 pt. characters to
start. Attacks of 50-60 points. SPD 4-5. DEF ~18-24.
But I have this one player who constantly believes his characters
are incredible *badasses* and that they can't be stopped. He'll take on
*anybody* and assume he'll win (or at least survive). Of course, his
character has Psych Lim "Overconfident," so he feels justified in this.
I could just stomp him, but he'd keep doing it. And even if he
learned his lesson (I don't know if that's possible) how much fun is that?
And then he might feel he "wasn't playing his character." <sigh>
Any suggestions or general comments? I'd rather not alienate the
player, as he has been a friend for years.
-Jerry
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 12:43:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Campaign Questionnaires
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From: willggeiger@juno.com (William G Geiger)
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One question for the GM comes immediately to mind...
What is the history of superhumans in our world, and how have supers
changed the timeline, if at all, from Real World history?
Aloha, WillGGeiger@juno.com
Comments: Authenticated sender is <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:47:02 +0000
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
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>
> >>>>> "GS" == Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org> writes:
>
> >> And I still stand by my original statement: powers or characteristics
> >> cannot be adjusted below 0 or 1. Therefore it is impossible for
> >> adjustment powers to be lethal.
>
> GS> That's your house rule. :-)
>
> Show me something in Champions that shows me wrong and I will treat it as
> such.
As I see it, there's nothing in Champions that supports it either
way. It's a hole in the rules. There's nothing in the rules that
states that powers or characteristics cannot be drained below 0 or 1.
>
> >> Strength is the sole exception because it is the only thing in Champions
> >> explicitly defined as having negative values that mean something to a
> >> character that has not been incapacitated.
>
> GS> Negative BODY characters are not necessarily incapacitated. :-)
>
> I think "bleeding to death" qualifies.
But characters who are bleeding to death can still act, as long as
they aren't stunned or unconscious. A BODY Drain could very well
take them below 0 without affecting their STUN. And aren't diseases
built using Drains? In the case of potentially-fatal diseases I'm
sure that BODY would have to go below 0.
I think that the Negative Characteristics article plugs a lot of the
holes in the rules, and I use them in my own campaigns without
reservation. Just because they aren't "official" (which is starting
to become meaningless) doesn't mean they aren't valid. You may not
be saying that official = valid, unofficial = not in so many words,
Rat, but your vehemence about defending the sanctity of the core
rules is telling.
Guy
----------------------------------
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com)
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf
and the PANGAEA Project!
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Speed
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 09:59:26 -0700 (PDT)
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> h > How necessary is the SPD attribute in champions? To me, it only seems
> h > to slow down combat and remove a lot of "realism" from the game (not
> h > that I'm a fan of realism in an RPG).
>
> SPD is one of the most unique elements of the Hero system, though it
> can be a pain to learn, once you've got it down, it captures some
> aspects of comic book and cinematic genres very nicely. The SPD chart
> allows for some tactics both to the benefit of high-SPD characters,
> and as a balance against them.
Speed is what sets Hero apart from the other's.
Both DC and V&V had character creation that allowed more variety
(V&V with it's 'Mutan/Body/Animal/Plant/etc... powers, DC with it's
definable advantage). Marvel was faster and easier. Yet only Champions
has spread combat out like the comics with it's speed chart.
The speed chart allows for speedsters, yet balances them out
by not giving them all their multiple actions at once.
For those who think multiple actions would be a good idea. Just
look to V&V or DC. It causes major imbalancing problems in those systems.
In V&V the guy with highest Agility gets the most actions, and
almost always wins. In DC it's not impossible to get in 10-20 attacks before
a single other PC or NPC gets their first action.
The speed chart is a major pain, yes. But it's the best alternative
we've got so far. I't part of the genre to have people like the flash, or
for even an ordinary super to be at least twice as fast as a normal.
Properly managed and prepared for; it won't slow things down. The
thing I find takes the longest in a Hero combat is the player who can't decide what
their hero will do.
If you want to speed up combat, make it exciting, so your players will
pay attention. This way they'll all have their action ready when their turn
comes up.
I know it works for me. When I'm in an exciting fight, I sit on the
edge of my seat planning my next move way ahead. Knowing that only I
"Hero Dude" can save the world. :)
Yet when a combat is just dice rolls and damage scores, when it's not
my turn I go check the fridge, reread the powers section, or flip through a
nearby comic book... So when my turn comes up I end up sitting there going;
well... I'll... um...
Managed right, I can use the speed chart to keep my players from
trying to interupt out of turn, and thus speed up the game.
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
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>>>>> "JPW" == John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> writes:
JPW> So the question is _can_ an adjustment power kill, not is it the
JPW> efficient or prefered manner to do so.
And I still stand by my original statement: powers or characteristics
cannot be adjusted below 0 or 1. Therefore it is impossible for adjustment
powers to be lethal.
Strength is the sole exception because it is the only thing in Champions
explicitly defined as having negative values that mean something to a
character that has not been incapacitated.
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From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Campaign Questionnaires
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 10:10:32 -0700 (PDT)
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>
> Other Super Questions....
> Why are there supers in your world (ie ancient genetic tampering,
> Wildcards virus ect)? And this question I wouldn't expect the GM to tell
> the players, just that he knows what it is. I had mine planned and 8
> years later only 2 PCs know the answer; big mystery in the campaign.
>
You know. I actually intentionally did not answer this question
for my super world. It's not the focus I chose. My focus is on the nature
of they mythic hero ideal. Certain things just 'are'.
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 13:28:52 -0400
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org>
Subject: Drain to Zero
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> And I still stand by my original statement: powers or characteristics
> cannot be adjusted below 0 or 1. Therefore it is impossible for adjustment
> powers to be lethal.
That's your house rule. :-)
> Strength is the sole exception because it is the only thing in Champions
> explicitly defined as having negative values that mean something to a
> character that has not been incapacitated.
Negative BODY characters are not necessarily incapacitated. :-)
Geoff Speare
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 13:16:47 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Speed
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> Speed is what sets Hero apart from the other's.
I would have to argue that there is more than just this one Stat,
but I agree it is a unique feature.
> Both DC and V&V had character creation that allowed more variety
> (V&V with it's 'Mutan/Body/Animal/Plant/etc... powers, DC with it's
> definable advantage). Marvel was faster and easier. Yet only Champions
More variety? Huh? Champs thrives on variety. Think up any
concept you want and use the powers, modifiery, disads, etc to put it
together. I will maintain that there is _nothing_ you can't simulate
using the Champs rules. How could anything with a predefined set of
powers and/or character types have more variety?
Oh, and Marvel is speedier, but . . . well, lets leave it at that.
(Can't say anything nice, don't say . . . )
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 12:17:54 -0600
From: Curtis Gibson <Mhoram@apeleon.net>
Subject: Re: Campaign Questionnaires
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Brian Wong wrote:
>
> >
> > Other Super Questions....
> > Why are there supers in your world (ie ancient genetic tampering,
> > Wildcards virus ect)? And this question I wouldn't expect the GM to tell
> > the players, just that he knows what it is. I had mine planned and 8
> > years later only 2 PCs know the answer; big mystery in the campaign.
> >
> You know. I actually intentionally did not answer this question
> for my super world. It's not the focus I chose. My focus is on the nature
> of they mythic hero ideal. Certain things just 'are'.
Point taken. In my first Champs campaign the issue never came up. I
never worried about it, and there was no problem. My current campaign,
superpowers first appeared in the world on the date we ran our first
session (1986). The first supers, period. Why that happened was fairly
important to a number of people. 8)
--
-Mhoram
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your
two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright
Subject: Re: Speed
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 97 15:16:42 -0400
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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On 9/3/97 12:59 PM, Brian Wong (rook@sanfran.infinex.com) Said:
>Both DC and V&V had character creation that allowed more variety
>(V&V with it's 'Mutan/Body/Animal/Plant/etc... powers, DC with it's
>definable advantage).
I'm not sure how this could give you more variety/flexability than the
HERO system, but I've never played either system so...
>Marvel was faster and easier.
In the same way that leaping off of a cliff will get you to the bottom
faster and easier than climbing down.
The popularity of Windows surged in 1995, when |
Microsoft began shipping Windows 95, which | David A. Fair
included many innovations that the Macintosh | SDS International
had introduced 10 years earlier. | dfair@sdslink.com
- Reuters, Friday, July 18, 1997 |
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
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>>>>> "GS" == Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org> writes:
>> And I still stand by my original statement: powers or characteristics
>> cannot be adjusted below 0 or 1. Therefore it is impossible for
>> adjustment powers to be lethal.
GS> That's your house rule. :-)
Show me something in Champions that shows me wrong and I will treat it as
such.
>> Strength is the sole exception because it is the only thing in Champions
>> explicitly defined as having negative values that mean something to a
>> character that has not been incapacitated.
GS> Negative BODY characters are not necessarily incapacitated. :-)
I think "bleeding to death" qualifies.
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Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 15:49:27 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Speed
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> >Marvel was faster and easier.
>
> In the same way that leaping off of a cliff will get you to the bottom
> faster and easier than climbing down.
That's good. Real good. Mind if I develop a .sig file from that
quote? Or do you want to do it yourself.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:55:28 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions Listserv <champ-l@emerald.omg.org>
Subject: Re: Speed
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(Don't know if you purposely or accidentally sent this to me
rather than to the list, but the last question made me think it was
accidental. Besides, this is relevant to everyone)
> > More variety? Huh? Champs thrives on variety. Think up any
> >concept you want and use the powers, modifiery, disads, etc to put it
> >together. I will maintain that there is _nothing_ you can't simulate
> >using the Champs rules. How could anything with a predefined set of
> >powers and/or character types have more variety?
> >
> I beg to differ, IMO, there're 4 powers that Champs doesn't handle well:
Before I say more, realize I said that the system _could_
simulazte anything. Some things are more difficult than others, and some
cost too much or too little. That said, you still can do absolutely
*anything*.
> 1rst, the gateway-style teleport. I feel that that should be based
> on an area effect, because objects must be pushed through or go through
> under their own power.
And this is still a problem? Use a trigger of anyone entering an
area. Make creative use of the UAO or UBO advantages. Mix those
advantages with an AE, and tack on a "limited power" disadvantage saying
that someone has to go through the portal to actually be teleported. It
may end up being quite expensive, but it isn't a minor ability. Most will
be simulated just fine by letting the SFX explination handle a TP with no
major modifiers.
> 2nd, 'slippery' entangles. The greased floor schtick isn't handled
> at *all* well.
There have been a few solutions to the greased floor. My personal
favorite is either superleap or flight, UAO -- others do not like movement
powers UAO at all. It can also be done with a movement and/or DEX drain
with appropriate lims. Also, try a TK with ads and lims, maybe an NND.
> 3rd, Flash effects, note there are *no* modifiers for ambient
> conditions (a flash in full sunlight really *isn't* going to work too
> well.) BTW, since the 4th edition rule-change on pricing, does *anybody*
> use flash attacks anymore?
Well, they do work in the comics, sometimes. Though most bright
light flashes are better in darker areas. Also, not all flashes have the
same SFX. And, anyway, any ambient conditions that affect the flash can
be modified for by advantages and limitations. Make the flash unusable in
Sunlight for a -1/2 or, if the GM is generous, -1. Make 3 dice of a 6 die
flash unusable in sunlight the same way.
Really, we've seen no problems here. You want a real challenge?
Try Giant Robots.
-Tim Gilberg
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
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>>>>> "GH" == Guy Hoyle <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> writes:
GH> As I see it, there's nothing in Champions that supports it either way.
GH> It's a hole in the rules. There's nothing in the rules that states
GH> that powers or characteristics cannot be drained below 0 or 1.
I know that. I am basing my interpretation on circumstantial evidence:
That only a few characteristics have been defined as having meaning with
values below 1 or 0, and only one of which can have such values as a normal
condition. That Drain (and other adjustment powers) operate on active
points and that active points concrete quantities not abstract numbers --
one cannot have -3D6 of Energy Blast, after all.
Yes, the evidence is circumstantial, but there is none that goes counter to
this outside of collections of "officially published rules *variants*".
[...]
GH> But characters who are bleeding to death can still act, as long as they
GH> aren't stunned or unconscious.
Try running with a broken leg. Yes, you can *try*, but you are not going
to be able to run as fast as if your leg was not broken.
GH> A BODY Drain could very well take them below 0 without affecting their
GH> STUN.
And I am saying that a Body Drain should not be able to do that.
GH> And aren't diseases built using Drains? In the case of potentially-
GH> fatal diseases I'm sure that BODY would have to go below 0.
No, fatal diseases are plot devices. Trying to accurately model them with
Hero mechanics is a mathematical nightmare. But if you must, then an NND
Killing Attack with Gradual Effect is what you should be looking at.
GH> I think that the Negative Characteristics article plugs a lot of the
GH> holes in the rules,
I think that they opened up whole new realms of abuse by encouraging the
use of adjustment powers instead of the powers that should be used, and
were excluded from the fourth edition rules for exactly that reason.
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 23:28:18 +0000
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
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Stainless Steel Rat says:
> Again, the circumstantial support is that the negative characteristic rules
> from Champions III were not included in the fourth edition rules even when
> other parts were included. Even when several other things were added to
> the 4.1 and 4.2 printings of Champions, negative characteristics were not
> included. I think that is a lot of weight on the side of negative
> characteristics *not* being the norm.
If they didn't like the rules, why did they resurrect them for HSA 1?
For all you know, the reason that they didn't include the rules in
the official documents may have had more to do with space than with
the rules' validity.
That they think enough to keep bringing them back in SOME form is an
argument in favor of them, IMNSHO.
Guy
----------------------------------
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com)
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf
and the PANGAEA Project!
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 23:50:49 +0000
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
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On 3 Sep 97 at 18:33, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> Yes, the evidence is circumstantial, but there is none that goes counter to
> this outside of collections of "officially published rules *variants*".
I see a number of things that go counter to that. The fact that those
rule variants start by assuming that characters can already be
drained below zero is one. The fact that rules for going below zero
BODY and STUN already exist is another.
You can argue against these, to be sure, but that hardly makes them
non-existant, as you claim. In fact, I find your arguments at least
as close to "none" as that of the others here. The fact that you
find it convincing doesn't change the fact that most here do not.
Since you don't actually _know_, why don't we leave it at that, since
neither side apparently has evidence sufficient to convince the
others?
> [...]
>
> GH> But characters who are bleeding to death can still act, as long as they
> GH> aren't stunned or unconscious.
>
> Try running with a broken leg. Yes, you can *try*, but you are not going
> to be able to run as fast as if your leg was not broken.
>
> GH> A BODY Drain could very well take them below 0 without affecting their
> GH> STUN.
>
> And I am saying that a Body Drain should not be able to do that.
Which isn't an argument against his position. His argument is about
what happens if you can do that with a Body Drain; thus, arguments
saying you can't are as pointless as arguing against, "If I could
turn invisible, I could walk into the nudist camp without being
seen," with, "You can't turn invisible." It is irrelevant.
> GH> And aren't diseases built using Drains? In the case of
potentially-
> GH> fatal diseases I'm sure that BODY would have to go below 0.
>
> No, fatal diseases are plot devices. Trying to accurately model them with
> Hero mechanics is a mathematical nightmare. But if you must, then an NND
> Killing Attack with Gradual Effect is what you should be looking at.
Save that they are always modelled with Drain, instead, in the
supplements.
> GH> I think that the Negative Characteristics article plugs a lot of the
> GH> holes in the rules,
>
> I think that they opened up whole new realms of abuse by encouraging the
> use of adjustment powers instead of the powers that should be used, and
> were excluded from the fourth edition rules for exactly that reason.
>
How is it abusive? It is a more expensive power, with different
effects, that simulates a wide variety of situations better than the
present power. The cost is reasonable for the effect.
I might point out that if Draining Body to negative cannot happen,
then Body Drain is horrendously overpriced. Otherwise, it comes in at
a reasonable price, given its strengths and limitations.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 23:50:49 +0000
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net
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On 2 Sep 97 at 17:58, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> >>>>> "JD" == Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> writes:
>
> JD> So, a lethal (on average) in one shot RKA costs 127.5 points.
> JD> And a lethal (on average) in one shot Drain v. Body costs 180 points.
>
> In which case, why would you want to use Drain if your intent is to kill?
> RKA is undeniably the power to use if you want to kill something, and it
> costs less.
A couple of possible reasons:
1) To simulate an effect better. For example, a character who killed
by suppressing biological functions or Draining life energy would
have to heavily customize a KA to fit the bill. (Lim: Does no
structural damage to target (thus preventing it from destroying
walls, cars, or the character's physical form), Lim: Character heals
5 Active points in BODY/ Turn (turn off the power, and he recovers
quickly, because he isn't damaged), etc.) On the other hand, Drain,
if you allow it to drain below 0, fits perfectly.
2) To kill beings who are resistant to KA. For example, a KA of that
size would probabably do no Body at all to the team brick in my last
campaign, but the Drain would have taken him out in 1-2 hits.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 23:50:49 +0000
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
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On 3 Sep 97 at 16:28, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> >>>>> "GS" == Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org> writes:
>
> >> And I still stand by my original statement: powers or characteristics
> >> cannot be adjusted below 0 or 1. Therefore it is impossible for
> >> adjustment powers to be lethal.
>
> GS> That's your house rule. :-)
>
> Show me something in Champions that shows me wrong and I will treat it as
> such.
Show me something in Champions that shows you right and I will treat
it as such.
So far, you have insisted that the character generation rules for
buying Body (for example) apply to Drain, and not the combat rules
for losing Body. Why this should be is beyond me.
The only justification I can see for this is the interpretation that
the phrase "Active Points" in the Drain description somehow means to
you "treat as character creation", rather than "active points is how
you figure out how much was drained, not real or base points". If
you wish to interpret it that way you may, but I don't see how your
way is more "right" or "obvious".
> >> Strength is the sole exception because it is the only thing in Champions
> >> explicitly defined as having negative values that mean something to a
> >> character that has not been incapacitated.
>
> GS> Negative BODY characters are not necessarily incapacitated. :-)
>
> I think "bleeding to death" qualifies.
Because I am bleeding to death now, in a few minutes I _will be_
incapacitated. Because I am awake now, in a few hours I _will be_
incapacitated.
In neither case are you incapacitated at this time.
Furthermore, I cannot determine why you think being incapacitated
automatically stops Drain. Obviously it isn't because the target is
dead, because you stated this method couldn't kill the target. Why
does a Drain stop at incapacitation, and where in the rules does it
support this statement?
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 23:50:49 +0000
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net
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On 3 Sep 97 at 9:59, Sparx wrote:
> >Now, a character who wants to be very fast no longer has an incentive
> >to buy a high SPD. After all, just because they can fly very fast
> >doesn't necessarily mean they need a high SPD. Also, it might be
> >interesting to have a character who can run super fast, but has a low
> >SPD. (Can _you_ accurately shoot a target while running at 100 MPH?)
>
> Yeah, but this makes for a sad day, when Batman or Spider-Man or the Flash
> now hits the street thug as often as the street thug gets to hit them.
But you _can_ have a high SPD and a high movement with my proposal.
They merely become independent of each other.
> >Lastly, you might try a version of the Rule of X from Fuzion that
> >incorporates SPD, as a house rule (No, not FUZION!!!
> >AAAIIIIEEEE!!!!) Put a limit in your champaign something like
> >this (X = character's largest DC + OCV+2xSPD), with a champaign
> >maximum that fits your campaign. Thus, the faster character must have
> >weaker attacks or be less accurate or both the faster he/she is. This
> >imposes yet another limit on Speed abuse.
>
> Or, you might just want to put a limit on Speed in general. Such as, no one
> with over a Speed of 6 or everyone must have a Speed of 5.
But I want them _different_. If I wanted them all the same, I'd do
that, but the complaint I was addressing was campaigns where every
player character has the same SPD, and it is always the maximum.
Thus, my suggestions were to help enforce an average, not only in SPD
but in other areas.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 20:20:07 -0400
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org>
Subject: Drain to Zero
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>>> And I still stand by my original statement: powers or characteristics
>>> cannot be adjusted below 0 or 1. Therefore it is impossible for
>>> adjustment powers to be lethal.
>
>GS> That's your house rule. :-)
>
> Show me something in Champions that shows me wrong and I will treat it as
> such.
Can't do it. But wait...
> [different thread, still Rat]
> I know that. I am basing my interpretation on circumstantial evidence: That
> only a few characteristics have been defined as having meaning with values
> below 1 or 0, and only one of which can have such values as a normal
> condition. That Drain (and other adjustment powers) operate on active
> points and that active points concrete quantities not abstract numbers --
> one cannot have -3D6 of Energy Blast, after all.
"Interpretation." There isn't definitive text on this in the HSR; thus, any
position on it is a house rule.
>GS> Negative BODY characters are not necessarily incapacitated. :-)
>
> I think "bleeding to death" qualifies.
So, if my character has 10 BODY, 1 BODY Regeneration "only to stop bleeding to
death", and gets drained 15 BODY, is my BODY 0, 1, or -5? What happens if
someone then drains my Regeneration away?
Geoff Speare
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
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>>>>> "GS" == Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org> writes:
GS> "Interpretation." There isn't definitive text on this in the HSR; thus,
GS> any position on it is a house rule.
As far as I have seen, what I have presented is the closest thing to
definitive as far as the core rules are concerned. Suppress cannot be used
to "attack" incoming attacks as Dispell may be used because Dispell
specificially allows for it. Likewise, most characteristics cannot have
<=0 values except for Strength which specifically defines it.
Again, the circumstantial support is that the negative characteristic rules
from Champions III were not included in the fourth edition rules even when
other parts were included. Even when several other things were added to
the 4.1 and 4.2 printings of Champions, negative characteristics were not
included. I think that is a lot of weight on the side of negative
characteristics *not* being the norm.
[...]
GS> So, if my character has 10 BODY, 1 BODY Regeneration "only to stop
GS> bleeding to death", and gets drained 15 BODY, is my BODY 0, 1, or -5?
0 or 1, because characteristics (excepting Strength) cannot be adjusted
below that minimum.
The difference between 0 and 1 for some characteristics (INT) is
negligible, but for some it can be drastic (Stun). Some can be nonexistant
(EGO), which is not the same as 0. Some make no sense with valus less than
1 (Speed, and there are better ways to turn someone into a statue). My two
reasons for "1" being the minimum is that it avoids these inconsistancies
and it fits with the rule that characteristics except Strength cannot be
sold below 1 for their normal values.
So, to answer the question again, 1.
GS> What happens if someone then drains my Regeneration away?
Not much, unless she takes more Body damage, at which point she will start
bleeding to death as per normal until her Regeneration recovers the minimum
active cost "packet".
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Point Efficiency Checklist?
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>>>>> "DS" == David Streeter <surturz@zip.com.au> writes:
DS> On 3 Sep 97 at 12:56, Stainless Steel Rat didactically posited:
And thank you for *PUBLICALLY* posting part of a *PRIVATE* message.
PLONK!
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Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 19:06:57 -0700
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions
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At 09:46 AM 9/4/97 +0000, \"David Streeter\" <surturz@zip.com.au> wrote:
>Eh. A continuous area effect energy blast with double knockback and
>the limitation "Does knockdown only". It could be a GM call that they
>take "damage" each hex they enter. Might even be affordable.
>
AE TK, only to pull someone downwards, only effects people touching the
ground (combined with a change environment to actually make the floor slippery)
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 20:27:22 -0700
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Reply-To: rook@infinex.com
Subject: Re: Player Overconfidence v. Character Overconfidence
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Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
> I run a fairly conservative game (I think): 250 pt. characters
> to
> start. Attacks of 50-60 points. SPD 4-5. DEF ~18-24.
> But I have this one player who constantly believes his
> characters
> are incredible *badasses* and that they can't be stopped. He'll take
> on
> *anybody* and assume he'll win (or at least survive). Of course, his
> character has Psych Lim "Overconfident," so he feels justified in
> this.
Considering the character has the overconfidence lim, he's playing
totally in
character. So no problem there.
However, let him get it. An overconfident character is likely to get
pounded on.
Just let things take their natural course and when he puts his foot in
his mouth, make him
eat it.
After trying to take on Mechanon and only barely surviving... maybe
that psych lim will
change...
--
Rook
Also known as Arcady on #herochat and #Fuzionchat in DALnet IRC
herochat is a channel for discusion of the Hero system
Fuzionchat is for dicussion of Fuzion (C:NM, BGC, et all)
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Also, check out the new version of Villians & Vigilantes at
http://illusionmachines.com/personal/jeff/vandv.html
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 13:30:51 +1000
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Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
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At 12:13 AM 9/1/97 -0400, you wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "L" == Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> writes:
>
>L> But KA don't model certain effects very well. Fantasy and Comics are
>L> filled with "Now, your life shall become mine, and I shall toss away the
>L> lifeless husk you shall become! Bwahahahah!"
>
>Plot device.
>
in HERO? yer in the wrong mode, that's a player talking in the quote. . . . *eg*
>L> Further, KA is resisted by armor and defenses...this isn't a good way to
>L> model, say, a rust power, which would almost by definition not be
>L> resisted by the BODY/DEF of a metal wall, since it's the metal itself
>L> which is being attacked.
>
>A perfect example of a cumulative Transformation Attack: you are changing a
>thing into something else.
>
well, you could argue that for any effect- even stats if you think about it. . .
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From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 13:34:19 +1000
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Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
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At 12:45 AM 9/1/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
> <<2> A 10PD/10ED force field costs a SPD 4 character 8 END per
> turn. A 10PD/10ED force field costs a SPD 6 character 12 END per
> turn, for exactly the same amount of defense.>>
>
> Yes, this is one of the odd flukes of the SPD system. But it can be
>corrected if you have such continuous powers pay thier END Cost per turn (or
>segment) insted of per Phase. I have thought about such an alteration for my
>Paradigm homerules alond with making movement bought in inches per segment.
> Would this mean a big change in the way we have to consider continuous
>powers to work? Yes, but it would correct other similar oddities too.
>
isn't it just variance in power? like, two different people , two different powers,
or at least two different hyperspacial mass variables? ;->~
>
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 13:44:43 +1000
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Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
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At 01:40 PM 9/2/97 +1000, you wrote:
>jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
>>
>> hows about just having 'actions' equal to speed, like # of attacks? when > someone wants an action, whoever has the highest number of actions left > gos, dex deciding ties?
>>
>
> The reason against this would be that the higher speed character could
>wait till the lower speeds use all their 'actions' and defend against
>them, and then get basically free time where the others cant react.
>
> [I dont think i explained that very well, so ill try to use an example]
>
> We have Speed 6 Man, vs UberSpeed 4
>
>Action S4 S6
>1 Attack Dodge
>2 Attack Dodge
>3 Attack Dodge
>4 Attack Dodge
>
> Suddenly, Uber4 has no action left to defend himself or anything.
>
>5 looks worried Attack
>6 really worried Haymaker
>
> I think ive explained myself now.
>
> Unless I havent of course 8)
>
how is this a problem? isn't that what speedy guys do? take a look at wallyflash vs professor zoom to see what i mean- they zoom around until one grabbs the edge. . .
or a brick who stomps once and then spidey hits him 5 times from different angles.. .
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 21:05:48 -0700
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Reply-To: rook@infinex.com
Subject: Who makes the PC and how to balance power levels.
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> I've played with the idea of havinf everyone submit a character
> background & summary, and writing the actual character sheets myself.
The
> one time I tried to implement it, everyone dropped the game like a
> cockroach infested burger.
>
THe biggest thrill for me when I first started playing Hero Games
back in 1985 was the ability to design my own character. One that would
match the ideas I felt the character should have. It's THE reason I
switched
from AD&D. And I haven't played a diced based game since. I suspect this
holds true for a large percentage of Hero fans. Though maybe not to the
same extreme degree as it does with me.
I need to have 100% say in my character concepts or I just can't
stomach to play the game. Which means I tend to like as much info as
possible
ahead of time so I can match the character to the game. But I feel it
needs
to be me who does it.
>
> >> Restraint? On the part of PLAYERS? You obviously have much better
players
> >>than are available here in Milwaukee...
> >> The single question I hear most often is "What's the max DEX & SPD
you
> >>allow", to which I usually answer "Since you asked, 10 & 2"
> >
> >Works for me, but remember many players are just asking for stats
maxes, so
> >give some the benefit of the doubt. I always ask for maxes just so I
don't
> >come into a game with a character out of proportion with everyone
else.
> >It can happen easily enough.
> >
>
I do the same. I always ask all these questions, and when running
always answer all of them. A GM who is not prepared to answer every
question
a player can ask about both the power level and the setting
is asking for it.
> ie: All the goddamn players go for the extreme maximum end of the
ranges I
> give, or try to go over them. I'm not inclined to spend the first 2-10
game
> sessions arguing with players over the power levels of their
characters.
There are two things I plan to port from Fuzion into Hero. One of
them is a modified Rule of X. This is a rule that states
that your max is some value called X. X = your OCV+attack dice+a few
other
things. For defence it's DCV+defence (PD/ED)+whatever...
I haven't wuite figured out what I want in my Hero system X
setting,
but I think it's a great way of forcing players to stick to what I set
as
my averages. I simply make X= all the averages totalled. Of course, I
might
do something like X=(DCV*3)+(Stun/3)+(PD+ED/2) or whatever...
One point of DCV is obviously more useful than one point of
Stun...
The question still remains to me of how much more useful...
> It doesn't much matter anymore, since everyone I game with is pretty
> tired of Superheroes right now anyways.
>
You find these problems in any genre of system you use, to one
degree or another.
--
Rook
Also known as Arcady on #herochat and #Fuzionchat in DALnet IRC
herochat is a channel for discusion of the Hero system
Fuzionchat is for dicussion of Fuzion (C:NM, BGC, et all)
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Also, check out the new version of Villians & Vigilantes at
http://illusionmachines.com/personal/jeff/vandv.html
X-Sender: nolan@pop.erols.com
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 00:16:29 -0400
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: Who makes the PC and how to balance power levels.
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> THe biggest thrill for me when I first started playing Hero Games
>back in 1985 was the ability to design my own character. One that would
>match the ideas I felt the character should have. It's THE reason I
>switched
>from AD&D. And I haven't played a diced based game since. I suspect this
>holds true for a large percentage of Hero fans. Though maybe not to the
>same extreme degree as it does with me.
While agree wholeheartedly, and had the same experience (in 1991), I feel
forced to point out that HER0 -is- a dice-based game. It is the epitome of
dice-based games. The character creation is diceless, but the GAME is
dice-laden.
Scott, who also loves the Amber DRPG
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 23:18:51 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions Listserv <champ-l@emerald.omg.org>
Subject: Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions
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> > There have been a few solutions to the greased floor. My personal
> > favorite is either superleap or flight, UAO -- others do not like movement
> > powers UAO at all. It can also be done with a movement and/or DEX drain
> > with appropriate lims. Also, try a TK with ads and lims, maybe an NND.
>
> Eh. A continuous area effect energy blast with double knockback and
> the limitation "Does knockdown only". It could be a GM call that they
> take "damage" each hex they enter. Might even be affordable.
Not bad, actually. I might use this myself. And it just goes to
prove my point that _anything_ can be modeled with the Hero rules.
-Tim Gilberg
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 00:39:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Player Overconfidence v. Character Overconfidence
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From: willggeiger@juno.com (William G Geiger)
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Have someone obviously weaker harass (not necessarily stomp) him. A few
years ago, I played a little Vietnamese boy (Phung Hoang, Vietnamese for
Phoenix) with TK and healing powers. After each fight, he would heal
the injured, starting with those who needed it most (triage). After one
battle, he tended to a hurt villain first, which pissed off our 13-foot
tall mecha pilot, Street Hawk, who threatened to kick his little ass.
Phung Hoang quietly took offense to this, and covertly paid her back for
this with his invisible TK. Her coffee spilled into her laptop computer.
All the buttons on the elevator were pressed, so it stopped on every
floor. Her briefcase flew open on the street, and papers blew out
everywhere. Mustard sprayed onto her clothing, as she tried to put it on
her hot dog. Amazingly, the player never did seem to realize that my PC
was responsible for his curse.
Aloha, WillGGeiger@juno.com
On Wed, 03 Sep 1997 22:34:57 +0600 Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
writes:
> I run a fairly conservative game (I think): 250 pt. characters
>to
>start. Attacks of 50-60 points. SPD 4-5. DEF ~18-24.
> But I have this one player who constantly believes his
>characters
>are incredible *badasses* and that they can't be stopped. He'll take
>on
>*anybody* and assume he'll win (or at least survive). Of course, his
>character has Psych Lim "Overconfident," so he feels justified in
>this.
> I could just stomp him, but he'd keep doing it. And even if
>he
>learned his lesson (I don't know if that's possible) how much fun is
>that?
>And then he might feel he "wasn't playing his character." <sigh>
> Any suggestions or general comments? I'd rather not alienate
>the
>player, as he has been a friend for years.
>
>-Jerry
>
>
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 12:30:01 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in
Champions)
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Dave Mattingly wrote:
>A way I've often been fond of is Dispel DEX. It's pretty cheap, and
>since Dispel is an all or nothing power, either you're at 0 DEX (special
>effect = fall down) or you're unaffected.
>
Um, so you've defined Characteristics as Powers, and said that they only
have Active Points equal to the positive value of the Characteristic times
the cost. Hmm... So you turn off my DEX, and I need to "turn it back on"
on my turn?
What about the negative Characteristic rules?
How does Rat feel about this? I got his post about a different way to do
it, but does he feel it *can't* be done this way? Hey, Rat...
-Jerry
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 17:40:45 +1000
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Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers
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At 10:13 AM 9/2/97 +0000, you wrote:
>Now, should characters do something stupid, I let the dice land where
>they may. But being killed or seriously maimed simply because the dice
>decree it, no. I change the results.
>
>John Lansford
>
>
define stupid- too often it actually means- "they p*ss*d me off". . .
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 17:45:49 +1000
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Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
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At 10:53 AM 9/2/97 -0400, you wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "SM" == Steve McGinness <smcginn@csm.exeter.ac.uk> writes:
>
>SM> Unless of course the speed 3 character is a big slow villain being
>SM> stomped by several weeny speed 7 characters!!
>
>Just a point, but how frequently does one find this kind of situation in
>comics? Seriously, in a team story the big nasty is equal in his own right
>to the entire team, or even slightly superior, requiring teamwork to take
>him down.
>
hmmm, have you read mid-late transformers? there were these little fast dudes called micromasters. . .plus ninjas- erm, not such a good example. . . .
However, the whole 'team of pc's stop a giant monster' kinda follows this archetype. .
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 17:50:14 +1000
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Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
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At 11:23 AM 9/2/97 -0400, you wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "EK" == Earl Kwallek <earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us> writes:
>
>EK> Too many (read all) campaigns I have run or played in have rapidly
>EK> devolved into SPD/DEX races. the assumption being that the character
>EK> with the greatest number of actions wins. Unfortunately, this is almost
>EK> universally true.
>
>Only for a very small universe. :)
>
>If this is happening to you then the GMs you have been involved with have
>not maintained a semblance of balance. High Speed characters should
>generally have smaller attacks and lower defenses than slower characters.
>Otherwise yes, this will happen.
>
also ideas like nnd, area effect, damage shield, speed drains (very valid for stun effects)
>Of course, if all are built on the same point totals, someone is failing to
>exploit the weaknesses (Power Limitations) of such fast, brutal characters.
>
also of note- many dcv bonus's lasts till yer next phase- so technically. . ..
though i don't know if this applies to dodge and other interupt actions tho. .. any ideas?
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>Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
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From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 17:54:27 +1000
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Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
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At 07:17 AM 9/2/97 -0700, you wrote:
>At 11:19 PM 9/1/97 -0700, Captain Spith wrote:
>>John Doe wrote:
>>
>>> OTOH, it is possible that it gets in the way. Initiative countdowns as in
>>> Shadowrun and Feng Shui seem better for Speedsters. Besides, Speedsters in
>>> most comics only hit about as often as their opponents. They just hit with
>>> a >special effect< of multiple blows or whatever.
>>
>> I have to disagree here; speedsters have been known to attack several
>>people spread apart in a room all before any one can act, react to one
>>incoming attack then launch another attack against a different opponent,
>>and other things that require a larger number of actual actions than
>>others.
>
> I think I'd compromise on this. There are speedsters, such as
>Quicksilver, and then there are SPEEDSTERS, like the Flash. QS would have
>a SPD around 7 or 8 (IOW just a tad higher than most other supers), while
>Flash would be 12 or possibly (at the risk of starting an old debate all
>over again) even higher.
>
i'd honestly say that most of the difference 'twixt these two would be abstract-
a matter of running speed, ect (apart from all the speed field stuff)
>
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 18:00:22 +1000
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Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
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At 11:25 AM 9/2/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Yes, this is universally true, but so is the nature of the power gamer in
>Champions. It is a game that seems to attract the power gamer due to the
>fact that it is possible to build all sorts of characters and it is possible
>to dump all sorts of points into one or two major areas. This is the job of
>the GM to either put a stop to that or if that doesn't work, do as I do and
>design the character for the power gamer based on his description. Usually,
>I get, "That isn't as powerful as I wanted it to be." I just smile and
>explain to the player that it is as powerful as *I* wanted it to be.
>
so jean grey can be the most powerful tK on the planet but a PC can't?
>
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 18:05:28 +1000
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At 10:02 PM 9/1/97 +0000, you wrote:
>Here's my take on the 'Drain to Zero'. Remember that I am looking at
>this from a Fantasy Hero perspective before applying the flames <g>
>
>'A Power cannot duplicate another Power'. Therefore you cannot use
>Drain to affect BODY. If you want to affect BODY you use Blast or
>Killing Blast as appropriate. If you want to affect the recovery time,
>you apply a + or - 1/4 per step on the Time Chart.
>
who wrote that? *look, look* aha! hey! this applies to NEW powers- as in ones the pc/gm's may want to create, not ones that already exist.. .
>
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 14:40:17 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Costs END to turn off (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate
in Cha
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Brian Wong wrote:
>>
>> >One sort of power that isn't intrinsically in the rules is
>> >a power that costs END to turn it OFF.
>>
>>
> Or how about costs End to not turn on.
I think you're talking about the same thing...
>Growth, Shrinking, Desolid, Invis, Force Field, Damage Shield, Stretching
>Density Increase, Flight, Tunneling, Shape Change, Telepathy, etc...
>
> All other these have in genre examples where the hero has to
>concentrate or pay energy to not be under their effects.
> One well known example is/was Kitty Pride of X-Men. She was desolid
>unless she willed herself solid.
As far as Growth and Shrinking went, if they were opposite powers (which
they aren't), you could just take some levels of one, Always On, and some
levels of the other that cost END, but just enough to cancel. Ex. 3 Levels
Growth, 0 END Persitent, Always On. Balanced by 1 Level Shrinking.
And for Shape Shift (which is what I think you meant), well, I don't know
your specific example, but it'd probably be a Distinctive Feature, either
Concealable or Easily Con, which you could "turn off" by Shape Shifting to
your "handsome" form, which would cost END. (That is, the base form of your
character would be the Butt Ugly.)
> Another hard one for hero is the person who cannot die or be killed;
>even via suicide. Fuzion has a power for it with Alliances, but it's never
>been there in Hero.
> Both the DNAgents and SpiderWoman faced people with such a power.
>
Could you provide the power example from Alliances, and maybe a brief
description of the example "people with such a power?" If they're NPCs...
um... PLOT DEVICE! or whatever.
- Jerry
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Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 14:52:03 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in
Champions)
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Dave Mattingly wrote:
>>Um, so you've defined Characteristics as Powers, and said that
>>they only have Active Points equal to the positive value of the
>>Characteristic times the cost. Hmm...
>
>That's always been done. How else can you transfer STR?
Well, my point was that Dispel specifies "Powers" and in Transfer it says
"Characteristics or Powers." I think of Transfer as an extention of Drain,
and Dispel... Well, admittedly, I don't think of Dispel much at all.
>>So you turn off my DEX, and I need to "turn it back on"
>>on my turn?
>
>You still have your DEX, but you have 0 OCV and DCV since you're
>slipping around. Your DEX rolls suffer, too.
I still have my DEX, but it's at 0? What about Combat Skill Levels? You
didn't Dispel them, right?
>You "turn your DEX back on" by leaving the hex, via a movement power
>like flight or teleport, or by a skill like acrobatics or climbing.
>You're at an effective 0 DCV until you leave.
>
>>What about the negative Characteristic rules?
>
>They don't apply. I'm not draining or suppressing DEX, just dispelling
>it. Either your DEX is completely gone, or it's not -- either you're
>slipping around or you've got your footing.
>
>Suppress could be substituted for partial effect, of course.
I'm not convinced, tho. If you have an effective 0 DEX, well, the effects
are spelled out in the "Negative Characteristics" rules. And Suppress has
to be handled *vewy* carefuwwy...
>>How does Rat feel about this?
>
>It seems that Rat and I rarely agree.
>
HA! Man, that's funny. My comments on Rat (no disrespect to him) were my
attempt at a funny. I was referring to the "Drain to Zero" thread I started.
But your answers seem well thought out, and you stated you've used this
before... I'd buy it. I'm thankful that none of my players want an Oil
Slick Power. But thanks for having the patience with my questions.
- Jerry
Comments: Authenticated sender is <surturz@mail.zip.com.au>
From: "David Streeter" <surturz@zip.com.au>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:35:48 +0000
Subject: Re: Point Efficiency Checklist?
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On 3 Sep 97 at 12:56, Stainless Steel Rat didactically posited:
> You missed my point, that a Strength of ?3 or ?8 is *MORE* efficient than a
> Strength of ?9. The three points to get ?3 or ?8 is more efficient by a
> huge stretch then the one point to go from there to ?9.
Well, okay, perhaps hairs are being split.
What I mean is that ?9 is a more efficient number than ?8, not that
you save a lot of points going from ?8 to ?9. If you're going from ?0
to ?8, you're better off going from ?0 to ?9.
SurturZ
you may
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David Streeter <surturz@ozemail.com.au>
Synchrotech Software
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From: "\"David Streeter\" <surturz@zip.com.au>
Champions Listserv" <surturz@zip.com.au>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:46:17 +0000
Subject: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions
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On 3 Sep 97 at 16:55, Tim R. Gilberg didactically posited:
> > 2nd, 'slippery' entangles. The greased floor schtick isn't handled
> > at *all* well.
>
> There have been a few solutions to the greased floor. My personal
> favorite is either superleap or flight, UAO -- others do not like movement
> powers UAO at all. It can also be done with a movement and/or DEX drain
> with appropriate lims. Also, try a TK with ads and lims, maybe an NND.
Eh. A continuous area effect energy blast with double knockback and
the limitation "Does knockdown only". It could be a GM call that they
take "damage" each hex they enter. Might even be affordable.
SurturZ
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David Streeter <surturz@ozemail.com.au>
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From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford)
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 09:48:44 GMT
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On Thu, 04 Sep 1997 17:40:45 +1000, you wrote:
>define stupid- too often it actually means- "they p*ss*d me off". . .
Maybe to you that's what that means.
If new characters want to take on Dr. Destroyer (or whoever the
baddest villain may be), or if they walk around acting like they are
God On Earth, I let the dice roll where they may. Or when you've tried
to subtlely point out an action may not be the best idea in the world,
and they insist they are going to try it anyway...
John Lansford
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 15:50:40 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Costs END to turn off (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate
in Cha
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David Fair wrote:
>>>> >One sort of power that isn't intrinsically in the rules is
>>>> >a power that costs END to turn it OFF.
>>>>
>>> Or how about costs End to not turn on.
>>
>>I think you're talking about the same thing...
>
>Actually, no. A power that costs END to shut off would only cost END for
>one phase (or longer if appropriate lims were there, extra time for
>example) while a power that costs END to not turn on would cost END every
>phase the power was not active.
>
>i.e. If I can remain invisible w/o any END cost, but must concentrate (or
>exert effort) to become visible, then that power costs END to turn off.
>If I must continue to concentrate (or exert effort) to remain visible,
>then that power costs END to not turn on.
I see your distinction now. I hadn't thought of this before, and probably
wouldn't've come up with the "pay the END once to turn it off" conception on
my own. But thanks for the clarification.
BTW, what did you think of the other stuff I said in the post?
- Jerry
Comments: Authenticated sender is <b1tlbx98@pop1.sympatico.ca>
From: "Vance Scott" <vances@sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 10:08:11 +0000
Subject: Re: Point Efficiency Checklist?
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> When you look over characters you or somebody else has designed,
> where do you look for inefficiencies? I'd like to put together a
> checklist for myself.
>
> Just for kicks, here's a character I've designed; maybe it can be
> used as an example for people to pick apart
The only true break points are in characteristics. Secondary
Characteristics are figured based on primary characteristics. It is
in primary characteristics where you can pick numbers that best
influence your secondary characteristics. As a general rule numbers
ending in 3 are your best bet.
> 18 STR 8
The following things are determined using strength: Damage, PD,
Recovery, and Stun. 0 and 5, or 3 and 8 are break points for a full,
or a half die of damage. For determining PD numbers ending in 3,
or 8 are best. Base PD is str/5 rounded on the half in the players
favour 3, and 8 will round to 5, and 10. Recovery is equal to str/5
+ con/5 so 3, and 8 are again the most efficent. Stun is equal to
str/2+con/2+bod. A Strength that ends in an odd number is best
for stun. Strengths that end in 3 meets all the break points failing
only in providing a half in stead of a whole die of damage. So values
that end in (3), or 8 and 5 are most efficent.
> 18 DEX 24
CV, SPD, and Skill rolls are determined using dex. CV is equal to
dex/3 rounded on the half in the players favour. So number that are
one point short of a value evenly divided by three are best for
determining CV. For determining speed numbers ending in 0 are
best. If you bother to buy up your speed this consideration largely
disappears as your fractional speed won't be lost. For determining
dex based skills values ending in 3, and 8 are best. So the best dex
is a CV break point that end in a 3, or 8. Values that qualify are 8,
23, and 38.
> 15 CON 10
ED, Rec, End, and Stun are determined using Con.
ED is equal to CON/5 rounded on the half in favour of the character.
So values that in 3, and 8 are the breakpoints for ED. Recovery is
equal to STR/5+CON/5 so the break points are again 3, and 8.
Endurance is equal to CON x 2 so there are no special breakpoints for
END. Stun is equal to STR/2+CON/2+BODY so the break points are any
odd number. So a CON value ending in 3 is best.
> 10 BODY 0
There is no special advantage to a particular body value.
> 13 INT 3
Numbers ending in 3, and 8 are best. They are the values where int
based skill rolls break.
> 13 EGO 6
ECV, MD, and Ego Rolls are based on EGO. ECV is equal to EGO/3
rounded on the half in the characters' favour. Values that are one
less than multiples of three are your ECV breakpoints. MD defense if
you have it, adds Ego/5 so values ending in 3, and 8 are best. For
Ego rolls, values ending in 3, and 8 are the break points. So those
ECV break points that end in 3, or 8 are best. The following numbers
qualify 8, 23, and 38.
> 15 PRE 5
Presence attack dice, and presence skill rolls are determined using PRE.
Values ending in 3, and 8 are break points to adjust skill rolls.
Presence attacks are based on presence divided by 5, but fractional
values adjust for damage so this isn't that important.
> 10 COM 0
This stat is little more than colour.
> 7 PD 3
> 4 ED 1
> 4 SPD 12
> 7 REC 0
> 28 END -1
> 27 STUN 0
There are no break point values for secondary characteristics. My
only advice is to make your values are appropriate to the campaign
you're playing in.
> 0 Weapon Groups,Swords/Blades
> 1 Weapon Groups,Barehand
> 4 Weapon Bind
> 4 Martial Block
> 4 Martial Disarm
> 4 Martial Dodge
> 4 Fast Strike
> 5 Passing Strike
> 5 Sacr Strike
> 5 Off Strike
> 5 Takeaway
> 0 WF,Swords
> 2 WF,Common Martial Arts Weapons
> 1 WF,Off-Hand
> 1 WF,Thrown Sword
> 39 13 Levels,tight group
> 1 Acrobatics 8-
> 1 Acting 8-
> 3 Ambidexterity
> 3 Breakfall 13-
> 3 Climbing 13-
> 3 Concealment 12-
> 1 Disguise 8-
> 1 Eavesdropping 8-
> 3 13- Fast Draw
> 1 High Society 8-
> 1 KS: Buddhism 11-
> 1 KS: Cook 11-
> 1 KS: Kenjutsu 11-
> 1 KS: Masseur 11-
> 1 KS: Philosophy 11-
> 1 KS: Singer 11-
> 1 Lang: Japanese,native,literacy
> 1 Lockpicking 8-
> 3 Paramedic 12-
> 3 Scholar
> 3 Sleight Of Hand 13-
> 3 Stealth 13-
> 1 Seduction 8-
> Code of Honor: Must right any wrongs he sees, correct any
> social injustices, keep any oaths of loyalty he takes, must
> meet any obligations he accepts, must honor good people,
> must spend all his money on good deeds and good times
>
> 4 8" Superleap 3
>
> Powers Cost: 129
> Total Cost: 200
Many of your 8- skills might be considered everyman skills depending
on the campaign.
> Base Points: 100
> 10 Distinctive,"Burning, intense eyes",concealable,minor
> 10 Distinctive,"Facial scars",concealable,minor
> 10 Enraged,"Innocents injured",common,occur 11-,recover 11-
> 25 Psych Lim,"Code of Honor (see below)",very common,total
> 10 Psych Lim,"Modest",common,moderate
> 10 Watched,"Oppressive nobility",more powerful,non-combat
> influence,harsh,appear 8-
> 10 DNPC,"Various orphans, lovers, friends, innocents, etc.",
> normal,appear 8-
> 15 Psych Lim,"Can never refuse a challenge from another
> fighter",common,strong
>
> Disadvantages Total: 100
> Experience Spent: 0
> Total Points: 200
>
Vance Scott
Vanquisher of all foes.
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 03:24:39 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Who makes the PC and how to balance power levels.
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Rook wrote:
> THe biggest thrill for me when I first started playing Hero Games
> back in 1985 was the ability to design my own character. One that would
> match the ideas I felt the character should have. It's THE reason I
> switched
> from AD&D. And I haven't played a diced based game since. I suspect this
>
> holds true for a large percentage of Hero fans. Though maybe not to the
> same extreme degree as it does with me.
This mirrors my own experience pre*cice*ly, though I was only playing
D&D because that's all that was available at the time....
> I need to have 100% say in my character concepts or I just can't
> stomach to play the game. Which means I tend to like as much info as possible
> ahead of time so I can match the character to the game. But I feel it needs
> to be me who does it.
Not so much for me, really; I find that it can be a lot of fun to
take a pregenerated character and 'make it yours', though for continuing
campaigns, I do have to have a character I feel strongly about (i.e.
created from my own concept(s)).
<<...someone else's comment...>>
> > >> Restraint? On the part of PLAYERS? You obviously have much better players
> > >>than are available here in Milwaukee...
> > >> The single question I hear most often is "What's the max DEX & SPD you
> > >>allow", to which I usually answer "Since you asked, 10 & 2"
I must admit, I've never had much of a problem with players trying to
'MAX OUT' on DEX and SPD. And on occasions when it has gotten too far
out of character concept, I've never had any problem saying "No".
> There are two things I plan to port from Fuzion into Hero. One of
> them is a modified Rule of X. This is a rule that states
> that your max is some value called X. X = your OCV+attack dice+a few other
> things. For defence it's DCV+defence (PD/ED)+whatever...
I personally don't like to put concrete restrictions on character
creation - I've always believed in the idea of recognizing the "norm"
for the various aspects of a character (ave. attack level, ave. DEX &
SPD, etc.), and require a coherent enough concept to express the
character's power levels in terms of 'relative to the norm'. I feel
that this actually yeilds a very accurate picture of how a character
should be built. Obviously, a player whose 'concept' is "Stronger and
Faster and Tougher than EVERYBODY!" is not going to have enough points
to pay for the necessary power levels.
> --
> Rook
> Also known as Arcady on #herochat and #Fuzionchat in DALnet IRC
> herochat is a channel for discusion of the Hero system
> Fuzionchat is for dicussion of Fuzion (C:NM, BGC, et all)
>
> Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
> http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
>
> Also, check out the new version of Villians & Vigilantes at
> http://illusionmachines.com/personal/jeff/vandv.html
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 03:35:18 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Player Overconfidence v. Character Overconfidence
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Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>
> I run a fairly conservative game (I think): 250 pt. characters to
> start. Attacks of 50-60 points. SPD 4-5. DEF ~18-24.
> But I have this one player who constantly believes his characters
> are incredible *badasses* and that they can't be stopped. He'll take on
> *anybody* and assume he'll win (or at least survive). Of course, his
> character has Psych Lim "Overconfident," so he feels justified in this.
> I could just stomp him, but he'd keep doing it. And even if he
> learned his lesson (I don't know if that's possible) how much fun is that?
> And then he might feel he "wasn't playing his character." <sigh>
> Any suggestions or general comments? I'd rather not alienate the
> player, as he has been a friend for years.
>
> -Jerry
There are a couple of different flavors of Overconfident characters;
Those who simply think they're "BadAss", Those who think that they will
prevail because they fight for the force of Goodness, or those who
simply feel that their personal well-being is less important than
continuing the 'good fight'. All three of these slants, though (and I'm
sure there are more) still yield the same results; getting in over your
head. But that's why this disadvantage gives points; that's what its
for.
In my opinion, this player is playing his character just fine, but as
GM, it is your job to let him suffer the consequences of his actions.
Not vindictively, but simply as a result of a disadvantage. Also,
remember that IDEALLY, the purpose of _taking_ the Overconfident Disad
is to use the opportunity as a player to deal with the ramifications of
unwise actions; technically, your player should thank you for the
roleplaying opportunities you give him by trouncing him soundly when he
takes on Genocide by himself...
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 03:40:41 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
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jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
>
> so jean grey can be the most powerful tK on the planet but a PC can't?
>
Quite frankly, I wouldn't allow any PC in my game at the power levels
of any of the X-men, at their unbelievably inflated power levels....
Okay, actually, MOST games (as far as I've experienced) tend to have
the PC's somewhere in the middle of the power level spectrum. On the
other hand, maybe a PC *could* be the most powerful TKer on the planet,
but otherwise be a somewhat feeble, fragile person, as long as the
points balance out.
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 03:54:50 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was ( Is there a need for SPD?)
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Sparx wrote:
>
> >To be honest, I wouldn't want to play in a campaign where the GM wrote
> >my character. building the character is the way I get to know the
> >personality beforehand. It makes things much more personal.
>
>[....] As I said in my earlier post, I usually
> don't build my player's characters. I've done it for those who don't feel
> like it, those who don't know how, and those who I feel power game. For all
> of them though, I ask for character concept the more detailed the better. I
> tend not to sit down and build a character for someone. That does take away
> the personal aspect of the game. I will offer suggestions if I see fit, but
> I usually don't enforce them, unless it is, "NO, you can't have a 30d6 RKA
> Area of Attack" trust me, it has gotten this bad, though that may have been
> a bit of an exaggeration.
I've had the good fortune of having about half of the players in my
game NOT Hero System Veterans, thus it has come down to me to build
their characters for them. In only ONE case, the player has said "Oh, I
want a character with this-n-that, but otherwise, surprise me!" (The
character, in fact, has made her very happy so far...) But in the other
cases, I have set up times for each player individually to plumb their
minds and wrack their brains to find out exactly what THEY want, and
reproduce it as accurately as I could, thus leaving some specifics up to
me; I would (for example) ascertain how fast they were in relation to
others, and then specify actual DEX and SPD scores myself. This yeilds
a very balanced campaign, and generally happy characters. The players
get what they want, I have balanced power levels, and since the players
and I are BOTH involved in the creation process, there usually comes out
of the process new and interesting ideas that either one of us alone
would have missed.
This is also a way to create some of the more difficult concepts
available; I find as the GM that if I'm trying to create a good
character, I'm more likely to give the player the benefit of the doubt
in terms of rules and Limitation bonuses, etc. in order to make
something work. This can ONLY serve to make more positive Player-GM
interaction...
> Talk at you later.
>
> Sparx
>
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 11:00:08 +0000
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net
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On 4 Sep 97 at 9:33, Brian Wong wrote:
> >
> > At 10:13 AM 9/2/97 +0000, you wrote:
> > >Now, should characters do something stupid, I let the dice land where
> > >they may. But being killed or seriously maimed simply because the dice
> > >decree it, no. I change the results.
> >
> > define stupid- too often it actually means- "they p*ss*d me off". . .
> >
>
> You know; that's a good point. Too many people who GM put themselves
> on this high, undemocratic chair. Once there they ruthlessly beat down any
> discention amoung the ranks. No viewpoint but the GM's becomes valid.
<snip good advice on GMing>
All true. However, as a GM with plenty of patience, I have found that
sometimes I am not nearly fast or firm enough about slapping someone
down. I have had players who ruined the game by constantly insisting
on getting their own way, sometimes to the point of ludicrousness.
One person who eventually left because he wasn't getting his own way
often enough should have been kicked out months earlier, but I didn't
work up the nerve to throw him out.
OTOH, I have seen GMs go the other way, to extremes. I had one GM who
wanted so much control that my highly paid mercenary, when sneaking
down the road a little ways, was told that he snuck down the _middle_
of the road, just so the GM could catch him easier. This same GM
declared that Raid was ineffective on bedbugs in Central America,
because he wanted our beds to have bedbugs, and I brought Raid.
So it can definitely go both ways. The best answer I have seen is
to have plenty of patience, listen to the player, and make careful
judgment while taking into account the player's wishes and concerns.
Then, if the player continues in behavior _clearly_ detrimental to
the game, talk with them about it. If it continues, talk with them
again. Then, if it continues, toss them out.
I had one GM who, when he couldn't deal with him in the game any
more, through out his best friend. I agreed with his decision.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 11:00:08 +0000
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions)
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net
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On 4 Sep 97 at 11:43, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> >>>>> "DM" == Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> writes:
>
> DM> A way I've often been fond of is Dispel DEX. It's pretty cheap, and
> DM> since Dispel is an all or nothing power, either you're at 0 DEX
> DM> (special effect = fall down) or you're unaffected.
>
> *sigh*
>
> You are all making this much more complicated than it needs to be.
>
> First, read the description of Acrobatics. Second, read the description of
> Change Environment.
>
Making most people fall over every phase is not a minor effect. I
would assume that a character who falls over cannot attack in the
phase in which they fall, for example. Far from minor.
Your method would only apply to a minor oil slick, not a serious
attack power.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Comments: Authenticated sender is <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 11:36:46 +0000
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
Reply-to: ghoyle1@airmail.net
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> >>>>> "GH" == Guy Hoyle <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> writes:
>
> GH> If they didn't like the rules, why did they resurrect them for HSA 1?
>
> Why did Hero print the HSA1 at all? To make money.
BWA-hah-haaa! That's a good one. The Hero System making money???
By this reasoning, Rat, you can explain away the BBB, the Hero System
Rulebook, and anything else Hero Games has ever put out. Have you
ever known a product put out commercially that was NOT intended to
make money?
At any rate, if I wanted to make money, I would not do it by going
into RPGs.
Guy
----------------------------------
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com)
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf
and the PANGAEA Project!
From: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net (Mike Lehmann)
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 04:31:38 -0800
Organization: Terminal BBS (403)327-9731
Subject: Is there a need for SPD?
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-=> Quoting Earl Kwallek to Mike Lehmann <=-
>to dump all sorts of points into one or two major areas. This is the job of
>the GM to either put a stop to that or if that doesn't work, do as I do and
>design the character for the power gamer based on his description. Usually,
>I get, "That isn't as powerful as I wanted it to be." I just smile and
>explain to the player that it is as powerful as *I* wanted it to be.
Thankfully, I rarely have this problem. I've found that most reasonable
players are willing to accept campaign restrictions; only the
unreasonable ones demand more than their fair share... and in local
gaming I've seen a *lot* of that... :(
EK> I've played with the idea of havinf everyone submit a character
EK> background & summary, and writing the actual character sheets myself.
EK> The one time I tried to implement it, everyone dropped the game like a
EK> cockroach infested burger.
I use this procedure for my PBEM, and it seems to work fairly well.
Often, someone will send me a "character sheet", which I use to build
the character myself. I've never used a character as-is.
IMO, at the very least, the GM should be working *with* the player to
build the character, to ensure that the character fits the campaign,
*and* that the power levels remain balanced...
mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net - - - - - Justice Krewe / Enigma Watch GM
- - - - - - http://www.dfw.net/~aronhead/justice_krewe.html - - - - - -
... Nice guys finish last, but we get to sleep in.
~~~ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
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From: "David Streeter" <surturz@zip.com.au>
Organization: Synchrotech Software
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 12:32:17 +0000
Subject: Re: Point Efficiency Checklist?
Reply-to: surturz@zip.com.au
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On 3 Sep 97 at 20:16, Donald Tsang rhetorically propounded:
> You're using a different definition of "efficiency" than Rat is. What
> he means is "utility per unit cost", where Con 18 is better than Con 19
> because you get n/16 efficiency for the former, and (n+2)/18 efficiency
> for the latter.
>
> What you're saying is, "it really doesn't cost you *anything* to go from
> Con 18 to 19, so you might as well take the higher number to be harder to
> Stun."
To me, the only useful definition of efficiency is "The highest
characteristic values for a given amount of points spent".
The argument is moot. ?9 is generally a better STR or CON value than
?8.
SurturZ
--------------------------------------------------
David Streeter <surturz@zip.com.au>
Synchrotech Software
Pager: Dial 016020 & Quote Pager #247689 to operator
Comments: Authenticated sender is <surturz@mail.zip.com.au>
From: "David Streeter" <surturz@zip.com.au>
Organization: Synchrotech Software
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:06:24 +0000
Subject: Re: Player Overconfidence v. Character Overconfidence
Reply-to: surturz@zip.com.au
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On 3 Sep 97 at 22:34, Jeremiah Driscoll rhetorically propounded:
> I run a fairly conservative game (I think): 250 pt. characters to
> start. Attacks of 50-60 points. SPD 4-5. DEF ~18-24.
> But I have this one player who constantly believes his characters
> are incredible *badasses* and that they can't be stopped. He'll take on
> *anybody* and assume he'll win (or at least survive). Of course, his
> character has Psych Lim "Overconfident," so he feels justified in this.
><SNIP>
> Any suggestions or general comments? I'd rather not alienate the
> player, as he has been a friend for years.
You could possibly organise to split him off from the rest of the
team, bogged down fighting innumerable bad guys whilst the rest of
the team get on with things.
SurturZ
--------------------------------------------------
David Streeter <surturz@zip.com.au>
Synchrotech Software
Pager: Dial 016020 & Quote Pager #247689 to operator
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:46:59 +0000
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions)
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net
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On 4 Sep 97 at 15:23, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> >>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
>
> F> Making most people fall over every phase is not a minor effect.
>
> An oil slick or sheet of ice does not cause most people to fall over every
> phase, not unless they are throwing caution to the wind.
Really? Ever tried to fistfight on a sheet of wet ice? Care to bet
you don't fall over constantly?
Additionally, a sheet of ice has more than minor effects on cars and
especially motorcycles.
Besides, if I wanted my character to be able to create oil slicks,
then I might well want them to be exceptionally slippery.
OTOH, for a normal oil slick, your method might work well enough.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 10:04:25 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
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> >I get, "That isn't as powerful as I wanted it to be." I just smile and
> >explain to the player that it is as powerful as *I* wanted it to be.
> >
>
> so jean grey can be the most powerful tK on the planet but a PC can't?
Oh, most probably. At least to start, and probably for most of
the campaign. I'm not going to let a player throw around 300 AP attacks
just because he/she thinks that is the character concept. I'd tell them
to tone it down -- a lot.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 10:12:09 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
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>At 11:25 AM 9/2/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>>Yes, this is universally true, but so is the nature of the power gamer in
>>Champions. It is a game that seems to attract the power gamer due to the
>>fact that it is possible to build all sorts of characters and it is possible
>>to dump all sorts of points into one or two major areas. This is the job of
>>the GM to either put a stop to that or if that doesn't work, do as I do and
>>design the character for the power gamer based on his description. Usually,
>>I get, "That isn't as powerful as I wanted it to be." I just smile and
>>explain to the player that it is as powerful as *I* wanted it to be.
>>
>
>so jean grey can be the most powerful tK on the planet but a PC can't?
Exactly. In my campaign I already have the most powerful TK as a NPC, if a
player comes to me and tells me I want to be the MOST powerful TK they
better have a good reason for surpassing the NPC.
Think of it this way, say you were in my game. You were playing the average
character that you designed because I knew you weren't a power gamer. Now I
decide because the players have talked me into it to let someone surpass
this TK NPC. All of a sudden the rest of the team reaches near uselessness
because Mr. Power Gamer is the most powerful TK, not to mention knowing the
power gamers I have ran with, cover every skill the team has and then some
and normally better then the person who has just one or two of the skills.
This is the point where I as the GM am to say NO. So Mr. Power Gamer goes
back home and the next week comes back with another character. This time he
only has familiarities in the skills and his TK is even more powerful
because he had the points to do it. I say NO again, he scratches out some
stuff and adds the points to his TK. Now I say NO to the TK, he goes back
home. Meanwhile, the rest of my players are frustrated playing with him and
frustrated wasting game time because this guy is a power gamer. If I would
have stopped it and said, "Ok, give me your character sheet, I'll adapt him
to the right level for next game." The trouble will be done and over with.
He might not be happy, but the majority of the players will be including
myself. I will state that this is not an exaggeration. I have had this
happen on more than one occasion (way to many than I can say). Simply
asking the player not to play does not work since he is friends with half
the group and they want him there, just not his characters. I have had more
than one player do it. I try to let players design there own characters and
give them that freedom, but there comes a point where I pull the plug on it.
Ok, so I might have rambled on a bit here. My point is, exactly. Jean
Grey can be the most powerful TK and the PC can not unless of course I OK
it. If a player sits down and gives me an origin saying I'm the most
powerful TK on the planet, without ever telling me before hand then we have
to talk. Or of course, I just prove him wrong :)
Sparx
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 10:19:16 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was ( Is there a need for SPD?)
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> I've had the good fortune of having about half of the players in my
>game NOT Hero System Veterans, thus it has come down to me to build
>their characters for them. In only ONE case, the player has said "Oh, I
>want a character with this-n-that, but otherwise, surprise me!" (The
>character, in fact, has made her very happy so far...) But in the other
>cases, I have set up times for each player individually to plumb their
>minds and wrack their brains to find out exactly what THEY want, and
>reproduce it as accurately as I could, thus leaving some specifics up to
>me; I would (for example) ascertain how fast they were in relation to
>others, and then specify actual DEX and SPD scores myself. This yeilds
>a very balanced campaign, and generally happy characters. The players
>get what they want, I have balanced power levels, and since the players
>and I are BOTH involved in the creation process, there usually comes out
>of the process new and interesting ideas that either one of us alone
>would have missed.
> This is also a way to create some of the more difficult concepts
>available; I find as the GM that if I'm trying to create a good
>character, I'm more likely to give the player the benefit of the doubt
>in terms of rules and Limitation bonuses, etc. in order to make
>something work. This can ONLY serve to make more positive Player-GM
>interaction...
I agree in full. I have many times sat down with the player and helped them
build their character, usually teaching them how along the way so that they
might be able to do it on their own. Truth of the matter is, time isn't
something that we all have available and sometimes just getting the group
together to game is impossible. We've done character building night, but
that never works out as all of a sudden it turns into a one-up character
building night.
Sparx
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "GH" == Guy Hoyle <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> writes:
GH> If they didn't like the rules, why did they resurrect them for HSA 1?
Why did Hero print the HSA1 at all? To make money.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions)
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>>>>> "DM" == Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> writes:
DM> A way I've often been fond of is Dispel DEX. It's pretty cheap, and
DM> since Dispel is an all or nothing power, either you're at 0 DEX
DM> (special effect = fall down) or you're unaffected.
*sigh*
You are all making this much more complicated than it needs to be.
First, read the description of Acrobatics. Second, read the description of
Change Environment.
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Cc: champ-l@omg.org, surturz@zip.com.au
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 11:51:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Cha mpions)
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From: willggeiger@juno.com (William G Geiger)
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This is good- this is how I should have created a ghost who can only
effect the real world with a bit of extra effort. Better yet, I should
have purchased Affects Physical World on his STR. I like the Dispel DEX
oil slick, too.
Aloha, WillGGeiger@juno.com
On Thu, 4 Sep 1997 08:14:01 -0400 Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com>
writes:
>>One sort of power that isn't intrinsically in the rules is
>>a power that costs END to turn it OFF.
>
>Here's a creative way that I saw someone do in a game last year:
>
>0 END, Persistent, Variable Lim (costs END or always on)
>
>for a +1 advantage and a -1/4 limitation.
>
>
>Dave Mattingly
>mattingly@bigfoot.com
>http://www.geocities.com/soho/5953
>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <surturz@mail.zip.com.au>
From: "David Streeter" <surturz@zip.com.au>
Organization: Synchrotech Software
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 15:53:17 +0000
Subject: Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions
Reply-to: surturz@zip.com.au
CC: Champions Listserv <champ-l@emerald.omg.org>
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On 3 Sep 97 at 23:18, Tim R. Gilberg rhetorically propounded:
> > Eh. A continuous area effect energy blast with double knockback and
> > the limitation "Does knockdown only". It could be a GM call that they
> > take "damage" each hex they enter. Might even be affordable.
>
>
> Not bad, actually. I might use this myself. And it just goes to
> prove my point that _anything_ can be modeled with the Hero rules.
Hear! Hear!
Although, I would probably only dare to claim that _almost_ anything
can be modelled. If they added a "general advantage" to mirror the
"general limitation", however...
One sort of power that isn't intrinsically in the rules is a power
that costs END to turn it OFF.
I'd call it a +1/4 advantage, since in playability terms you would
simply ensure the character's REC was high enough to handle it out of
combat, and in combat it is an advantage (except when you get knocked
out, I guess :-).
If there was a general advantage, you could do it easily. Currently,
you'd have to call it a -0 or -1/4 limitation, or something.
Actually, I take it all back - it's just a weaker version of the
Always On limitation.
You CAN model anything in Champions. How about that? :-)
SurturZ
--------------------------------------------------
David Streeter <surturz@zip.com.au>
Synchrotech Software
Pager: Dial 016020 & Quote Pager #247689 to operator
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 12:09:42 -0400
Subject: Curbing the Powergamer
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From: willggeiger@juno.com (William G Geiger)
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Good points. On the other hand, I like the PCs to shine, so most often I
wouldn't have an NPC who is the most powerful TK on the planet, unless it
was a villain, baby!
Aloha, WillGGeiger@juno.com
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:33:22 -0700 (PDT)
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>
> At 10:13 AM 9/2/97 +0000, you wrote:
> >Now, should characters do something stupid, I let the dice land where
> >they may. But being killed or seriously maimed simply because the dice
> >decree it, no. I change the results.
>
> define stupid- too often it actually means- "they p*ss*d me off". . .
>
You know; that's a good point. Too many people who GM put themselves
on this high, undemocratic chair. Once there they ruthlessly beat down any
discention amoung the ranks. No viewpoint but the GM's becomes valid.
How did we reach this state when the hobby comes from a country which
prides itself on it's claim to democratic ideals. Or even in a hobby which
itself proclaims cooperation over competition.
I find a GM needs to learn to have much more patience, and a very
controlled temper.
Both players and GM are there for enjoyment. Most gaming groups end up
being more about the socializing than the RPG itself.
If a player has an argument over a ruling and a GM just declares "I'm
the GM, my ruling stands"; the issue is NOT resolved. Ill will has just been
created. Both sides need to sit down and discuss it until a mutually
acceptable result is found. Otherwise that ill will just piles up and up until
it becomes personal. I can think of countless examples where friendships died
over things like this not being dealt with, but rather just 'pushed down'.
Over time they boiled up as more and more of them occured. In time the parties
concerned becomes hostile and look to things outside of gaming to fight over.
Yelling down and issue never works in the long run. Gaming is not a
battlefield where not following the the leader will kill somebody. It's a
social forum where all parties need to be assured they can agree and be
willing to resolve diferences.
Most 'accused powergamers' are no more 'powergamers' than the witches
at Salem were really 'witches'. The same with 'rules-lawyers'. They're
ussually just people with difering views with a GM who is too closed minded
and authoratative to listen.
Even when someone is obviously wrong; you have to listen. Only then
can you calmly correct them. And you just might find it was you who was
wrong.
If you have a player who insists on arguing every point; it's most
likely because they feel their views are not being heard. Sit down with
the person and let them explain it, then explain your views. Find something you
can agree on and work from there. In time their argumentative nature will
change to one which seeks to cooperate.
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:18:52 -0400
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 3-4
From: willggeiger@juno.com (William G Geiger)
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All well and good ponts about how GMs should not be dictators, but my
personal experience does not indicate this is usually a problem.
Debating a ruling in the middle of a firefight, at great length, is
usually a problem, moreso than the ruling itself.
Aloha, WillGGeiger@juno.com
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Costs END to turn off (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Cha
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 11:20:19 -0700 (PDT)
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>
> >One sort of power that isn't intrinsically in the rules is
> >a power that costs END to turn it OFF.
>
>
Or how about costs End to not turn on.
Growth, Shrinking, Desolid, Invis, Force Field, Damage Shield, Stretching
Density Increase, Flight, Tunneling, Shape Change, Telepathy, etc...
All other these have in genre examples where the hero has to
concentrate or pay energy to not be under their effects.
One well known example is/was Kitty Pride of X-Men. She was desolid
unless she willed herself solid.
Another hard one for hero is the person who cannot die or be killed;
even via suicide. Fuzion has a power for it with Alliances, but it's never
been there in Hero.
Both the DNAgents and SpiderWoman faced people with such a power.
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com>
Cc: "'jdriscol@vt.edu'" <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:38:50 -0400
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Jerry wrote:
>Um, so you've defined Characteristics as Powers, and said that
>they only have Active Points equal to the positive value of the
>Characteristic times the cost. Hmm...
That's always been done. How else can you transfer STR?
>So you turn off my DEX, and I need to "turn it back on"
>on my turn?
You still have your DEX, but you have 0 OCV and DCV since you're
slipping around. Your DEX rolls suffer, too.
You "turn your DEX back on" by leaving the hex, via a movement power
like flight or teleport, or by a skill like acrobatics or climbing.
You're at an effective 0 DCV until you leave.
>What about the negative Characteristic rules?
They don't apply. I'm not draining or suppressing DEX, just dispelling
it. Either your DEX is completely gone, or it's not -- either you're
slipping around or you've got your footing.
Suppress could be substituted for partial effect, of course.
>How does Rat feel about this?
It seems that Rat and I rarely agree.
Dave Mattingly
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "GH" == Guy Hoyle <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> writes:
>> Why did Hero print the HSA1 at all? To make money.
GH> BWA-hah-haaa! That's a good one. The Hero System making money???
Yeah, well... that was the idea. It was a response to demand for things
that were left out of the fourth edition Champions, a demand separate from
the demand that generated the fourth edition itself.
GH> By this reasoning, Rat, you can explain away the BBB, the Hero System
GH> Rulebook, and anything else Hero Games has ever put out. Have you ever
GH> known a product put out commercially that was NOT intended to make
GH> money?
Yeah: 'Lunar: Eternal Blue', released by Working Designs for the Sega-CD
six months after Sega had officially canned that piece of hardware. WD
*KNEW* they were going to lose on it, but they went and translated it and
released it anyway.
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and
\ kept under refrigeration.
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions)
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>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
F> Making most people fall over every phase is not a minor effect.
An oil slick or sheet of ice does not cause most people to fall over every
phase, not unless they are throwing caution to the wind.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and
\ kept under refrigeration.
Subject: Re: Costs END to turn off (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Cha
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 97 15:28:37 -0400
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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On 9/4/97 4:40 AM, Jeremiah Driscoll (jdriscol@vt.edu) Said:
>>> >One sort of power that isn't intrinsically in the rules is
>>> >a power that costs END to turn it OFF.
>>>
>>>
>> Or how about costs End to not turn on.
>
>I think you're talking about the same thing...
Actually, no. A power that costs END to shut off would only cost END for
one phase (or longer if appropriate lims were there, extra time for
example) while a power that costs END to not turn on would cost END every
phase the power was not active.
i.e. If I can remain invisible w/o any END cost, but must concentrate (or
exert effort) to become visible, then that power costs END to turn off.
If I must continue to concentrate (or exert effort) to remain visible,
then that power costs END to not turn on.
The popularity of Windows surged in 1995, when |
Microsoft began shipping Windows 95, which | David A. Fair
included many innovations that the Macintosh | SDS International
had introduced 10 years earlier. | dfair@sdslink.com
- Reuters, Friday, July 18, 1997 |
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:29:03 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
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>
>> Exactly. In my campaign I already have the most powerful TK as a NPC, if a
>> player comes to me and tells me I want to be the MOST powerful TK they
>> better have a good reason for surpassing the NPC.
>
>Hmm. Reminds me of some campaigns I've played in, where the GM had
>more fun playing his NPCs than we did as PCs. It was great for him
>when his NPCs would show up the PCs, mainly because he didn't write
>down the NPCs stats (and could thus do anything he wanted).
>
>I hate that type of campaign.
>
>Guy
Woah there, I think you have me mistaken for someone else. What I am saying
is that the NPC exists as a balance and a reference point for me and the
players. Now, let's see, if I were to ask any of my players to name TK NPC
or even the sex of this character, they wouldn't be able to. Why? Because
they've never met him before. I don't run many NPC characters. They exist,
because I run a game where other heroes are known to exist. They also exist
so Mr. Power Gamer doesn't come in and say I'm the most powerful hero on the
planet simply because he is the best of the PCs. No, he isn't there are
NPCs he has to take in account too. And being a super hero doesn't give you
access to the Super Hero Club where you know each and every hero.
As far as background on this TK NPC, he knows he is powerful, but no where
would he think he was the most powerful TK, he is simply a hero doing what
he thinks must be done. He operates in California, my players operate out
of New Hampshire. As I said, he is there for color, for checks and balance,
and yes, if need be catch rogue PCs. But if there was a world-wide alien
invasion game I was running, my PCs wouldn't be able to get much help from
him, he'd be out doing his own thing. Same with other such heroes, they
aren't there to help the heroes much or overshadow them, they are there
because it is a world with Super Heroes and to claim the PCs have the most
powerful or even the only super powers would not be very realistic in MY
campaign.
MY campaign has over 100 such NPCs of which the characters might meet a
dozen of in a year real time game play and might team up with one or two,
but even then, he or she follows the team's lead for whatever reason. They
are the experts in this area, it is their home town....etc.. etc...
Thanks for jumping to conclusions though. Take it easy and talk at you later.
Sparx
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 12:31:22 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
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At 04:47 PM 9/2/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
>
>BG> I would say that having -15 points of EB would have only the effect
>BG> of keeping you from recovering the first useful points of EB back any
>BG> time soon.
>
>I do not like it, but I could live with it.
>
>[...]
>
>BG> What about the proposed suggestion of having death occur when BODY
>BG> is drained to negative BODY (rather than to 0)?
>
>Given my stance this is impossible, that adjustment powers should not be
>inherently lethal, it should be impossible to adjust Body below 1.
>
>BG> Would that really step on the KAs all that much? (Does someone want to
>BG> crunch the numbers on that one?)
>
>Okay... assuming a character with 10 Body and 10 points of resistant
>defense and no Power Defense -- not too bad for a street-level superhero.
>
>To kill him outright with a KA you need to do 30 points of Body damage, 10
>stopped by defenses plus 20 more to actually kill him. That requires, on
>average, 8.5D6K with an active cost of 127.5
>
>To do the same with a Drain, based on the premise of death at 0, you need
>to drain 10 Body, or 20 active points worth. That requires, on average,
>6D6 of Drain with an active cost of 60 points, or 90 if you want to make it
>a ranged attack.
>
>So, you can see that in a campaign where Power Defense is unusual (which is
>just about all of them), allowing adjustment powers to be lethal not only
>walks all over Killing Attacks, it does so with a 25-50% cost break.
That cost break assumes your premise of death at 0 BODY; I was proposing
the more usual premise of death at negative original BODY. (In short, you
once again answered the wrong question!)
In that case, to kill your character outright would require an active
cost of 120 points, or 180 if you want to make it a ranged attack -- a
minor cost break, if not a 40% penalty.
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 12:32:29 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
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At 05:56 PM 9/2/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
>
>TRG> Calling them "house rules" makes it seem to be a minor varient.
>
>Okay, how about "officially published rules variants", which is what the
>HSA are, after all.
Or "variant rules" for short. That works for me. :-]
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 12:34:16 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
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At 05:58 PM 9/2/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "JD" == Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> writes:
>
>JD> So, a lethal (on average) in one shot RKA costs 127.5 points.
>JD> And a lethal (on average) in one shot Drain v. Body costs 180 points.
>
>In which case, why would you want to use Drain if your intent is to kill?
>RKA is undeniably the power to use if you want to kill something, and it
>costs less.
You'd use it for those cases where the opponent has a lot more than 10
points of resistant defense -- or when the Special Effects are better
represented by a BODY Dfrain.
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 19:34:21 +0000
Subject: Vari-multi pools
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net
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I realize that not everyone likes VPP, and for that matter not
everyone likes Multipowers. However, for those who do, I have an idea
I would like to run past you.
It has been pointed out to me more than once that some characters in
the comics (Storm) have what appears to be a VPP with a limited
special effect, but with Cosmic ability to accurately use certain
powers. However, once you have given Cosmic level control, then any
power that they can think of that fits the SE is 1/2 phase, no
control roll. (Yes, I know the GM can limit this, but when it fits
thats what he gets in my campaign, unless I have good reason to do
otherwise.)
One way to simulate this is to give a character a VPP and a
Multipower, but the cost of this is excessive for many concepts. I
had a different idea. The Vari-multi pool.
To begin with, buy a variable power pool. Ignore the control cost for
a moment. Now, buy multislots normally, except that no power may
exceed the pool size in active points.
Now, buy the control cost normally, with whatever limits you want.
The multipower limitations and the control cost limitations are,
except as described above, completely independent of each other.
This allows, for example, a weather controlling character who can
summon up certain well-practiced effects reliably, but takes extra
effort, time, and/or difficulty for other effects that fit the pool.
What do you think? (BTW, if you just hate multipowers or VPPs, please
just ignore me. Thank you. Frankly, I allow very few VPPs myself.)
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com>
Cc: "'jdriscol@vt.edu'" <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 16:35:06 -0400
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Jerry wrote:
>Well, my point was that Dispel specifies "Powers" and in Transfer
>it says "Characteristics or Powers."
Thanks, I didn't realize that distinction.
>I still have my DEX, but it's at 0? What about Combat Skill
>Levels? You didn't Dispel them, right?
Right. Your training doesn't disappear just because you're slipping
around. Dex Man would be in worse shape than Trained Man.
>I'm not convinced, tho. If you have an effective 0 DEX, well, the
>effects are spelled out in the "Negative Characteristics" rules.
You're talking about the HSA1 here?
>And Suppress has to be handled *vewy* carefuwwy...
As should any power -- they can all be abused.
>Your answers seem well thought out, and you stated you've
>used this before... I'd buy it. I'm thankful that none of my
>players want an Oil Slick Power.
I've used it before in utility belts and such, and I'm now designing a
character whose shtick is slipperiness. Luckily for those around him, he
can only make himself slippery, not others. This gives him running, DCV,
Armor, STR for escapes, and the ability to throw small objects at high
velocity (since his arm ignores air friction and he can throw very
fast).
>But thanks for having the patience with my questions.
Thank YOU, for having patience with my answers! :)
For any who have enjoyed this idea, check out my articles at
http://www.geocities.com/area51/cavern/1905/pwrpnt.html
Dave Mattingly
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Costs END to turn off (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:02:02 -0700 (PDT)
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>
> Brian Wong wrote:
> >>
> >> >One sort of power that isn't intrinsically in the rules is
> >> >a power that costs END to turn it OFF.
> >>
> >>
> > Or how about costs End to not turn on.
>
> I think you're talking about the same thing...
>
A subtle difference.
One takes End to turn off. One takes End every phase to keep it turned off.
> >Growth, Shrinking, Desolid, Invis, Force Field, Damage Shield, Stretching
> >Density Increase, Flight, Tunneling, Shape Change, Telepathy, etc...
> >
>
Tunneling: you continue to sink down unless you concentrate to stop it.
SHape Change: without concentration, the individual continues to shift in
appearance.
Telepathy: can't stop yourself from picking up 'chatter' all around you. All
Marvel-Universe telepaths seem to have this problem. They always talk
about having to learn to shut out other minds.
Flight/Gliding: without concentrated effort, you simply float away.
Stretching: without concentrated effort/energy, you simply become elastic goo.
Here's another one for you that unbalances hero:
a telepathy or mind control that works well on large groups, via influencing
long term trends in thought, yet can't be used on individuals.
> > Another hard one for hero is the person who cannot die or be killed;
> >even via suicide. Fuzion has a power for it with Alliances, but it's never
> >been there in Hero.
> > Both the DNAgents and SpiderWoman faced people with such a power.
> >
> Could you provide the power example from Alliances, and maybe a brief
> description of the example "people with such a power?" If they're NPCs...
> um... PLOT DEVICE! or whatever.
>
In Fuzion, this advantage adds 4 to the cost of regeneration.
Which translates in hero as either 20 points, or a +1 advantage.
Also, Fuzion's Regeneration is based not on Body/turn. But on
moving the frequency that you get you REC in body back up the time chart.
It costs 1 point per move on the chart, until you hit 1 minute per rec.
After that it costs 3 points per move.
In hero costs this would be 5 and 15.
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:34:19 -0700 (PDT)
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> >
> > DM> A way I've often been fond of is Dispel DEX. It's pretty cheap, and
> > DM> since Dispel is an all or nothing power, either you're at 0 DEX
> > DM> (special effect = fall down) or you're unaffected.
> >
> Making most people fall over every phase is not a minor effect. I
> would assume that a character who falls over cannot attack in the
> phase in which they fall, for example. Far from minor.
>
> Your method would only apply to a minor oil slick, not a serious
> attack power.
>
Entangle with a lim that a victim may overcome it with a successful
dex roll.
Entangle AVLD? Dex. Not sure if that can be done. But what I'm seeing
is an entangle that gets damaged by Dex and not strength.
If you added area effect and a lim that the victim can move around
in the area with dex rolls...
Or a 2d6 EB knockback only, AVLD: Dex roll, continuous... Lim:
knockback is in random direction.
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:36:45 -0700 (PDT)
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>
> >At 11:25 AM 9/2/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >>
> >>Yes, this is universally true, but so is the nature of the power gamer in
> >>Champions. It is a game that seems to attract the power gamer due to the
> >>fact that it is possible to build all sorts of characters and it is possible
> >>to dump all sorts of points into one or two major areas. This is the job of
> >>the GM to either put a stop to that or if that doesn't work, do as I do and
> >>design the character for the power gamer based on his description. Usually,
> >>I get, "That isn't as powerful as I wanted it to be." I just smile and
> >>explain to the player that it is as powerful as *I* wanted it to be.
> >>
> >so jean grey can be the most powerful tK on the planet but a PC can't?
>
> Exactly. In my campaign I already have the most powerful TK as a NPC, if a
> player comes to me and tells me I want to be the MOST powerful TK they
> better have a good reason for surpassing the NPC.
>
Part of the golden rule of a good GM is to not outshine the PC's
with your NPC's.
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: Extradimensional Bases
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 17:48:10 -0400 (EDT)
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I was wondering how one might construct an extradimensional base.
For example, Dr. Aether can teleport by moving through a small pocket
dimension. He can also transport himself directly into this pocket
dimension, which is his base (where he keeps his scientific equipment
and such). How would I build this base (what levels of location and
visibility would be necessary), and how could I make certain that Dr.
Aether could transport to his base no matter where he is?
-Eric
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 15:34:09 -0700
From: Darrin Kelley <flashbak@pacbell.net>
Reply-To: flashbak@pacbell.net
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
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Brian Wong wrote:
> >
> > >At 11:25 AM 9/2/97 -0500, you wrote:
> > >>
> > >>Yes, this is universally true, but so is the nature of the power
> gamer in
> > >>Champions. It is a game that seems to attract the power gamer due
> to the
> > >>fact that it is possible to build all sorts of characters and it
> is possible
> > >>to dump all sorts of points into one or two major areas. This is
> the job of
> > >>the GM to either put a stop to that or if that doesn't work, do as
> I do and
> > >>design the character for the power gamer based on his
> description. Usually,
> > >>I get, "That isn't as powerful as I wanted it to be." I just
> smile and
> > >>explain to the player that it is as powerful as *I* wanted it to
> be.
> > >>
> > >so jean grey can be the most powerful tK on the planet but a PC
> can't?
> >
> > Exactly. In my campaign I already have the most powerful TK as a
> NPC, if a
> > player comes to me and tells me I want to be the MOST powerful TK
> they
> > better have a good reason for surpassing the NPC.
> >
>
> Part of the golden rule of a good GM is to not outshine the
> PC's
> with your NPC's.
I have largely avoided this thread. Because it is a very old
arguement that all too many people have different takes on.
But I agree with the above. The "pet NPC" problem was one of thje
more annoying phenomenon that I encountered early on in my gaming
career. PCs should be allowed to the best, if that is within their
concept. Though I for one happen to have seen this as remarkable rare.
That is: Having characters who are made to be the best conceptually.
On the other hand, I have constantly come acroos players who want to
have the best character in the group. To be able to outshine everyone
else by having more power and more everything than anyone else. This
sort of competitiveness is something that I view as being counter to the
activity of roleplaying games period. RPGs are supposed to be group
efforts, which depends on the group working together to achieve whatever
their goals are. Not to allow some showboating gloryhog to relegate the
rest of the group into the role of audience.
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 15:42:11 -0700 (PDT)
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>
> Brian Wong wrote:
> >
> > Part of the golden rule of a good GM is to not outshine the
> > PC's with your NPC's.
>
> But I agree with the above. The "pet NPC" problem was one of thje
> more annoying phenomenon that I encountered early on in my gaming
>
> On the other hand, I have constantly come acroos players who want to
> have the best character in the group. To be able to outshine everyone
> sort of competitiveness is something that I view as being counter to the
> activity of roleplaying games period. RPGs are supposed to be group
>
I agree with you 100%. This is a distinction that must be made.
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 19:15:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Extradimensional Bases
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-3,5-8,10-20
From: willggeiger@juno.com (William G Geiger)
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A Few Costs for Base in Pocket Universe
10 Location: Distant
25 Modifier: (Extradimensional)Space
1 Memorized location for teleport (your PC pays for this directly, not
a Base item)
Aloha, WillGGeiger@juno.com
On Thu, 4 Sep 1997 17:48:10 -0400 (EDT) Eric Burns
<burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> writes:
>I was wondering how one might construct an extradimensional base.
>For example, Dr. Aether can teleport by moving through a small pocket
>dimension. He can also transport himself directly into this pocket
>dimension, which is his base (where he keeps his scientific equipment
>and such). How would I build this base (what levels of location and
>visibility would be necessary), and how could I make certain that Dr.
>Aether could transport to his base no matter where he is?
>
>-Eric
>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 19:54:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Subject: Request for material
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To any and all that are interested, I am willing to place character sheets
on my website. The catch is, I'm looking for character sheets for any
9and all) anime and manga characters. If you have some, please e-mail me
concerning the details.
Thanks.
PS: wanna preview of the site? Go to:
www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 21:35:35 -0500 (CDT)
From: Devan <rlewis@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu>
Subject: Question on Images
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Hi all,
I have a question concerning the Images power. I am toying with the idea of
creating a character who can manipulate Images, and would like to be able to
affect the 'touch' sense group. Is this permissible?
The book states that Images "...cannot cause any physical effects and are
totally intagible." Am I reading this too literally, or is it simply meant
to imply that images cannot cause physical damage? After all, if the
statement is taken literally, then the images can't have odors, make sounds,
or even hmmm... visibly appear, since all of these phenomena are "physical
effects".
I realize that Mental Illusions can seem real enough to cause physical
damage, but I don't wish to go this route. Note that I'm not trying to
"bend" the rules here by creating a character that can cause damage with
Images. I simply want the character to be able to create illusions that
also affect the sense of touch, or better yet, seem to affect that sense,
which is all that matters.
Any comments or suggestions appreciated,
-- D
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 21:59:03 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: The pet NPC was (Re: Curbing the Power Gamer)
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>> Part of the golden rule of a good GM is to not outshine the
>> PC's
>> with your NPC's.
>
> I have largely avoided this thread. Because it is a very old
>arguement that all too many people have different takes on.
>
> But I agree with the above. The "pet NPC" problem was one of thje
>more annoying phenomenon that I encountered early on in my gaming
>career. PCs should be allowed to the best, if that is within their
>concept. Though I for one happen to have seen this as remarkable rare.
>That is: Having characters who are made to be the best conceptually.
>
> On the other hand, I have constantly come acroos players who want to
>have the best character in the group. To be able to outshine everyone
>else by having more power and more everything than anyone else. This
>sort of competitiveness is something that I view as being counter to the
>activity of roleplaying games period. RPGs are supposed to be group
>efforts, which depends on the group working together to achieve whatever
>their goals are. Not to allow some showboating gloryhog to relegate the
>rest of the group into the role of audience.
I don't know if you bothered reading about my last post about how my "pet"
NPC has never been seen by my players, and I'm not about to requote the
whole thing here. Go back and read it, if you don't want to, don't, not a
big deal for me. I did want to address something else here though. It was
stated by a couple of people that the NPCs should not outshine the PCs. If
you read my previous post you would find that even my more powerful NPCs
never outshine the PCs and in most cases come to the PCs for help. What I
want to point out here or rather ask is this. How many of you as GMs let
your players start with the most powerful TK, Brick, Energy Projector,
etc... in the campaign? I'm talking the most powerful, that is what we were
talking about. There is no equal or superior be it PC or NPC. I find it
hard to believe that many GMs would allow such a character to exist. There
are always better, there are always PCs who are going to try to top it, so
instead of bestowing that title to a PC and starting a one-up game with the
other players, why not stop it before it starts and say, "You are NOT the
most powerful." This doesn't say you can't become the most powerful, it
simply states you aren't starting a character that is. Makes sense to me,
maybe I'm just odd that way. Talk at you later.
Sparx
X-Sender: wbandsis@mail.westco.net
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 00:33:35 -0400
From: Charles Badger <wbandsis@westco.net>
Subject: Re: Who makes the PC and how to balance power levels.
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I've done this in a face to face with me writing the characters up 80%. I
have the players write up what they consider the background and description
of the character. I then do the first copy. They can then recommend changes.
And I give them more points for backgrounds I like and ususally give at
least five for a decent background. Usually the character will go back and
forth a couple of times and then we're set to go. The biggest thing is let
them have a fair bit of input. I even had one player who wrote up the
individual powers he was looking for along with his description they ended
up being slightly modified.
At 21:05 09/03/97 -0700, Rook wrote:
>> I've played with the idea of havinf everyone submit a character
>> background & summary, and writing the actual character sheets myself.
>The
>> one time I tried to implement it, everyone dropped the game like a
>> cockroach infested burger.
>>
> THe biggest thrill for me when I first started playing Hero Games
>
>back in 1985 was the ability to design my own character. One that would
>match the ideas I felt the character should have. It's THE reason I
>switched
>from AD&D. And I haven't played a diced based game since. I suspect this
>
>holds true for a large percentage of Hero fans. Though maybe not to the
>same extreme degree as it does with me.
> I need to have 100% say in my character concepts or I just can't
>stomach to play the game. Which means I tend to like as much info as
>possible
>ahead of time so I can match the character to the game. But I feel it
>needs
>to be me who does it.
>
>>
>> >> Restraint? On the part of PLAYERS? You obviously have much better
>players
>> >>than are available here in Milwaukee...
>> >> The single question I hear most often is "What's the max DEX & SPD
>you
>> >>allow", to which I usually answer "Since you asked, 10 & 2"
>> >
>> >Works for me, but remember many players are just asking for stats
>maxes, so
>> >give some the benefit of the doubt. I always ask for maxes just so I
>don't
>> >come into a game with a character out of proportion with everyone
>else.
>> >It can happen easily enough.
>> >
>>
> I do the same. I always ask all these questions, and when running
>
>always answer all of them. A GM who is not prepared to answer every
>question
>a player can ask about both the power level and the setting
>is asking for it.
>
>> ie: All the goddamn players go for the extreme maximum end of the
>ranges I
>> give, or try to go over them. I'm not inclined to spend the first 2-10
>game
>> sessions arguing with players over the power levels of their
>characters.
>
> There are two things I plan to port from Fuzion into Hero. One of
>
>them is a modified Rule of X. This is a rule that states
>that your max is some value called X. X = your OCV+attack dice+a few
>other
>things. For defence it's DCV+defence (PD/ED)+whatever...
>
> I haven't wuite figured out what I want in my Hero system X
>setting,
>but I think it's a great way of forcing players to stick to what I set
>as
>my averages. I simply make X= all the averages totalled. Of course, I
>might
>do something like X=(DCV*3)+(Stun/3)+(PD+ED/2) or whatever...
> One point of DCV is obviously more useful than one point of
>Stun...
>The question still remains to me of how much more useful...
>
>
>
>> It doesn't much matter anymore, since everyone I game with is pretty
>
>> tired of Superheroes right now anyways.
>>
> You find these problems in any genre of system you use, to one
>degree or another.
>
>
>
>
>--
>Rook
>Also known as Arcady on #herochat and #Fuzionchat in DALnet IRC
>herochat is a channel for discusion of the Hero system
>Fuzionchat is for dicussion of Fuzion (C:NM, BGC, et all)
>
>Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
>http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
>
>Also, check out the new version of Villians & Vigilantes at
>http://illusionmachines.com/personal/jeff/vandv.html
>
>
>
>
-----
Charles T. Badger
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 03:01:03 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Question on Images
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Devan wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I have a question concerning the Images power. I am toying with the idea of
> creating a character who can manipulate Images, and would like to be able to
> affect the 'touch' sense group. Is this permissible?
>
> The book states that Images "...cannot cause any physical effects and are
> totally intagible." Am I reading this too literally, or is it simply meant
> to imply that images cannot cause physical damage? After all, if the
> statement is taken literally, then the images can't have odors, make sounds,
> or even hmmm... visibly appear, since all of these phenomena are "physical
> effects".
The way I read it, the spirit if the rule is that Images, regardless
of which sense(s) they affect are merely illusory, thus can't be, for
example, a noise loud enough to deafen someone or a light bright enough
to blind someone, etc. However, I believe that if enough points are
invested, there's nothing that says you can't create a
visual-audible-touchable 'image'. The image covering the three senses
in question would be seen, heard and felt, but would be unable to cause
any damage (like by 'punching' someone via an image of a Villian/Hero),
or actually have any effect on the rest of the world other than to
distract and/or deceive the other characters.
i.e. MirageMan creates an image of a henchman which affects all
senses. The 'Henchman' can run up and punch a foe, and the foe would
feel the 'contact' of the fist, but would take no damage or knockback.
On the other hand, if the image is good, the foe MAY waste a phase
dodging the attack, not knowing it isn't real.
Also, the physical-sensation image can be useful to make a target
'feel' somebody brush up against them from behind, in hopes they will
try to attack a more immediate threat than the illusionist or his/her
teammate.
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Comments: Authenticated sender is <surturz@mail.zip.com.au>
From: "David Streeter" <surturz@zip.com.au>
Organization: Synchrotech Software
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 10:02:34 +0000
Subject: Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions
Reply-to: surturz@zip.com.au
Priority: normal
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On 4 Sep 97 at 11:45, BCBattle@aol.com rhetorically propounded:
> >Eh. A continuous area effect energy blast with double knockback and
> >the limitation "Does knockdown only". It could be a GM call that they
> >take "damage" each hex they enter. Might even be affordable.
>
> Why would you need the double knockback at all if the attack only does knockdo
> wn?
I haven't worked out the points. I assumed it would be cheaper than
buying twice as many dice in the attack. You still need to exceed the
amount the victim rolls on his two dice.
> Additionally, knockdown concerns itself with the attack going up against
> the BODY of the character.
> How is this justified in the case of a slippery
> floor? It seems quicker and easier to just levy a DEX roll against
> any character who crosses through the area with an opposing roll
> made for the floor itself (you could essentially give the floor a
> skill: "Overcome DEX through Slipperiness, 18 or less" or some
> such).
How so? I thought you rolled counted the body of the attack,
subtracted two dice and any knockback resistance the character has to
work out knockback? (In the case of "does knockdown only", of course,
any number zero or greater would only knock the person down).
Oh that's right- there are "knockdown" rules - I've never used them.
It's possible I've used the term "knockdown" incorrectly. I meant
"any knockback only causes the target to fall over".
SurturZ
SurturZ
--------------------------------------------------
David Streeter <surturz@zip.com.au>
Synchrotech Software
Pager: Dial 016020 & Quote Pager #247689 to operator
Comments: Authenticated sender is <b1tlbx98@pop1.sympatico.ca>
From: "Vance Scott" <vances@sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 10:49:24 +0000
Subject: GM's Corner - Cheating
Reply-to: vances@sympatico.ca
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I appreciate everyone's opinion on the subject of cheating, and this
is my reply to all those cheating GMs.
Although, I seem to be standing alone on this issue. I'm sticking to my
original position cheating isn't something a GM should take lightly.
Cheating is an admission that the GM has screwed up beyond repair.
I've only every had one instance where a player was in jeopardy due
to bad dice rolls. I was playing Danger International, and the
players belonged to a secret missions team. The team was in europe
providing additional undercover guards for some high tech gizmo. The
gizmo was being transported on a bullet train which was assaulted by
onboard agents, and a few helicopters. The badguys slowed the train
down, and detached most of the passenger cars. One of the heroes was
in the rear section of the train, and made it to the front of the
passenger section just in time to attempt a leap to the lead train
section. I told the player what his chances of making it to the lead
train section were, and he decided to go for it. The player failed
his roll, and than I gave him a desperation roll where he tried to
grab on to a piece of the undercarriage, and he failed that roll too.
I stopped for a moment to decide on his fate, and came to the
conclusion that his character must die to maintain the element of
risk. In superhero games I've yet to kill a player's character. By
allowing the hero to die I maintain an element of risk in my spy
thrillers. This risk adds an element that is necessary in espionage
games.
An example of GM cheating that ruined the game for me. I was playing
Top Secret SI, and at the conclusion of the scenario my character was
trying to disarm a bomb on the Challenger shuttlecraft. The GM had me
roll a single time which I succeeded at. The GM than told me I needed
to roll again which I failed. Instead of blowing shuttle, and me up
which he should have he had me roll again, and I succeeded. The tension
he created by having my character risk his life was gone I knew the
GM wouldn't kill my character.
An example of a Player's blunder that I fixed. We were playing a time
cop like scenario where the players were time police going back to
stop time travellers from messing up the time line. The players left
after the bad guys left, but before they arrived in the past. The
players determined they needed to get some equipment because the time
travel device can't transport non-organic objects. While the other
player was out gathering equipment the bad guys arrived. There were
three of them the rogue scientist, and his two body guards Billy, and
Jimmy Lee genetically engineering martial art warriors. The player
who always builds tough hand to hand characters decided to take them
on even after I warned him off. The Player true to his words revealed
him self to the bad guys, and proceeded to take Billy, and Jimmy Lee
apart. While he was distracted the previously inactive rogue scientist
unsheathed a sword cane carved from bone, and stabbed him in the
back. They left the player's character in the street bleeding to
death, and hopelessly unconscious. Being the generous GM I am I had
the other player's character return in time to do first aid on his
character. This is an example of how the GM can handle blunders you
control the world, instead of voiding previous actions, or dice rolls
handle them. I could of had a passer-by rescue him. This isn't
cheating this is being a good GM. It's ok to give your heroes a lucky
break when they need one.
Another cheating GM a friend of mine created this situation in
Western Hero. We were all in a bar, and most of us were meeting for
the first time. Unfortunately two of the players stepped on each
others psychological toes. One character a deadly gun fighter challenged
a hulking scotsman immirgrant to an arm wrestle, and he placed five
dollars on the table. The Scotsman being a joker grabbed up the five
dollars, and thanked the gunfighter for his money. The gunfighter
being upset at being robbed drew his gun, and shot the Scotsman. The
Scotsman being hale, and hardy took the bullet, and drew his knife. The
Gunfigter shot the Scotsman a second time, and he was knocked
unconscious. The GM being rather upset at one of his players shooting
another down had half the bar turn, and fire on the Gunfighter. There
was no way that half the bar would have been able to react to the
situation that quickly both I, and the Gunfighters player knew it.
Unfortunately the GM didn't care, and to his rather dimwitted
surprise they did enough damage to kill his character. Instead of
killing his character he said he made a mistake, and changed
remaining die rolls to low values. Once again both I, and the
Gunfighters player knew he was fudging the dice rolls. The
Gunfighters player still holds a grudge against that GM, and much
prefers me as GameMaster. That player is the same one who's character
was knifed down in my time cop scenario. He knows that I'm always
fair, and I don't cheat either against, or for the players.
In my experience as a player cheating has always taken away from the
game. Usually the GM, or the player has screwed up in some way, so
the GM feels it is necessary to cheat. Even in those situations where
the players dice failed them they themselves, the GM, or the system
put them in that situation.
The following is my advice to handle screw-ups:
1. Don't put your players into situations where you might not like
the results.
2. Don't go off half cocked, this often results in overkill.
3. Use characters, circumstances, and events in your world to correct
those events that need fixing.
4. Don't fudge die rolls, and cheat this is an admission of failure.
I've presented some situations that helped cement my opinion
that cheating is a poor substitute for a well place nudge. GM's may
think their cheating goes on unnoticed, but many times they're wrong.
Vance Scott
Vanquisher of all foes.
Subject: Re: Who makes the PC and how to balance power levels.
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 97 06:55:18 -0400
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
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>>> I've played with the idea of having everyone submit a character
>>> background & summary, and writing the actual character sheets myself.
>>> The one time I tried to implement it, everyone dropped the game like
>>> a cockroach infested burger.
Just to come at this from the other side, I've actually recommended and
strongly supported the idea of my PBEM GM's writting all the characters
up. Frankly, the number crunching isn't that great a thrill for me. It
also makes the characters themselves more uniform in how they're
mechanically but together, making for, IMHO, a more uniform compaign with
far less problems along the lines of having one or two "megacharacters"
from experienced players, who have all the little "break points" worked
out and a lot of custom "limitations" to draw on vs. newer players who
just don't build as efficently.
Just my two cents.
PAX,
John
Subject: Re: The pet NPC was (Re: Curbing the Power Gamer)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 97 06:55:20 -0400
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
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Sparx psansone@i1.net 9/4/97 10:59 PM
>How many of you as GMs let your players start with the most powerful TK,
>Brick, Energy Projector, etc... in the campaign? I'm talking the most
>powerful, that is what we were talking about. There is no equal or
>superior be it PC or NPC. I find it hard to believe that many GMs would
>allow such a character to exist.
In the current PBEM I am a part of, the GM has introduced the concept of
PC-NPC or "Player Controlled NPCs". Such charaters can fall into the
mold of "the most powerful X". However they are heavily restricted in
terms of having a well defined role they have to fill and are not able
to act as randomly as PCs usually do. The responcibility of playing them
includes concepts like, "campaign continuity and fun for the PCs is THE
most important thing." It's also important that the full extent of the
abilities of such a charater remain mostly hidden, aka "never use more
power
than a situation absolutely requires".
I agree that just turning players loose with a "most powerful X" up front
can be dangerous. However, there probably is _some_ room for it, as long
as both the player and the GM are prepaired to deal with it and recognize
the character is a, more than usual, experiment and that the GM may have
to snatch it if it's ever abused.
PAX,
John
Subject: Re: Question on Images
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 97 06:55:22 -0400
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
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Devan rlewis@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu 9/4/97 10:35 PM
>I have a question concerning the Images power. I am toying with the idea of
>creating a character who can manipulate Images, and would like to be able to
>affect the 'touch' sense group. Is this permissible?
If you allow touch to be treated as a sense group, you're probably opening
a pandora's box that isn't worth it ("my HKA (knife) is invisible to the
touch sence group, he can't know I just stabbed him"). Use Mental Images
Linked (sorry for my language) to the Images and then restricted the MI to
only for creating "touch" sensations based on the images. This is
probably
the EGO level as long as it can't do damage.
PAX,
John
Subject: Re: Vari-multi pools
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 97 06:55:23 -0400
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
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Filksinger filkhero@usa.net 9/4/97 3:34 PM
>One way to simulate this is to give a character a VPP and a
>Multipower, but the cost of this is excessive for many concepts. I
>had a different idea. The Vari-multi pool.
>To begin with, buy a variable power pool. Ignore the control cost for
>a moment. Now, buy multislots normally, except that no power may
>exceed the pool size in active points.
>Now, buy the control cost normally, with whatever limits you want.
>The multipower limitations and the control cost limitations are,
>except as described above, completely independent of each other.
>This allows, for example, a weather controlling character who can
>summon up certain well-practiced effects reliably, but takes extra
>effort, time, and/or difficulty for other effects that fit the pool.
>What do you think? (BTW, if you just hate multipowers or VPPs, please
>just ignore me. Thank you. Frankly, I allow very few VPPs myself.)
I've actually been toying with this idea for handling magic. In that
case, I was considering requiring a skill roll OR buying a slot in the
multi-power. The combination is certainly a hybred, but seems workable.
PAX,
John
X-Sender: wabbit@globaldialog.com (Unverified)
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 06:48:51 -0500
From: Earl Kwallek <earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us>
Subject: Re: Vari-multi pools
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At 07:34 PM 9/4/97 +0000, Filksinger wrote:
>To begin with, buy a variable power pool. Ignore the control cost for
>a moment. Now, buy multislots normally, except that no power may
>exceed the pool size in active points.
>
>Now, buy the control cost normally, with whatever limits you want.
>
>The multipower limitations and the control cost limitations are,
>except as described above, completely independent of each other.
>
>This allows, for example, a weather controlling character who can
>summon up certain well-practiced effects reliably, but takes extra
>effort, time, and/or difficulty for other effects that fit the pool.
>
>What do you think? (BTW, if you just hate multipowers or VPPs, please
>just ignore me. Thank you. Frankly, I allow very few VPPs myself.)
>
I'm having difficulty visualizing what your talking about, a character
example would be helpful here. Something showing costs, and some exmple
powers....
This might be what I need for that shapechanging (any animal) character....
Earl Kwallek - Earl@TheWarren.Mil.Wi.US
A Man with a gun is a citizen;
a man without a gun is a subject.
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 06:38:08 -0600
From: Curtis Gibson <Mhoram@apeleon.net>
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers
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Brian Wong wrote:
> Most 'accused powergamers' are no more 'powergamers' than the witches
> at Salem were really 'witches'. The same with 'rules-lawyers'. They're
> ussually just people with difering views with a GM who is too closed minded
> and authoratative to listen.
> Even when someone is obviously wrong; you have to listen. Only then
> can you calmly correct them. And you just might find it was you who was
> wrong.
> If you have a player who insists on arguing every point; it's most
> likely because they feel their views are not being heard. Sit down with
> the person and let them explain it, then explain your views. Find something you
> can agree on and work from there. In time their argumentative nature will
> change to one which seeks to cooperate.
I've developed a method to handle this kind of problem. I tell the
players as they enter the campaign the following (in essence):
"I'm the GM. GM is generally understood to be 'GOD': Game Operations
Director. But I can make mistakes. I don't mind if you point these
mistakes out to me, just do it after a session is over. In the middle of
the adventure the GM's ruling in FINAL. If you have a problem with my
interpertation of a rule, or disagree on how something was handled, talk
to me afterwords. If I have in fact screwed up (not an uncommon
occurance) and your character bore the brunt of the mistake, it will be
made up to you either by experiance bonusus or a free luck roll, to be
called by you, later."
And in the middle of a session I'll slap someone down to keep things
running, but I have NEVER not talked to them afterwords. I have handed
out those free luck points to balance it.
Just my .02
--
-Mhoram
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your
two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 08:39:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer)
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 3-5
From: willggeiger@juno.com (William G Geiger)
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Sparx asked if we ever let a beginning PC start as the best in class in
our campaigns. Have to say, none of our players tried to do this, but it
could be accepted, especially certain categories; fastest speedster, most
attractive, most prolific inventor, etc.
Aloha, WillGGeiger@juno.com
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 05:52:24 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 12:53 AM 9/3/97 -0400, William G Geiger wrote:
>Once I was accused of never GMing stupid villains. In our game, several
>standard Viper agents held off our superhero team, successfully using
>military tactics. They were SPD 3, DEX 15-. It's not how fast you are,
>it's how fast you take care of business.
In other words, it's really not the size that matters, but what you do
with it, right? <GDR>
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg
Subject: Re: Oil Slick
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 97 08:56:55 -0400
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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Okay - I've stayed out of the oil slick as a DEX drain/suppress
thread 'til now...
However, the DEX drain it not the right mechanic here. If Bowhunter
is standing, about to shoot his patented EverFly arrows, and Slick
decides to throw an oil patch at his feet it will not effect Bowhunter at
all. But modeling it as a DEX drain reduces his OCV because he happens to
be standing in a puddle of oil.
For an Oil slick to be effective, it can only be used on a moving
target.
IMO, the better way to do an oil slick (or ice patch, etc.) is to
use a combination of Martial Throw, Telekinesis, AOE, and Trigger
(running or walking faster than 1"/phase in the AOE).
Using Martial Throw ensures that that the movement/momentum of the
target is used against him, TK allows this to be pulled off at range, AOE
lets it affect an area instead of a single target, and trigger forces it
to do nothing to characters who are able to leap/fly/tunnel/etc around
the target, or to those who simply are moving very carefully/not at all.
Using the DEX drain, a character with clinging cannot use that power
to keep from falling, a standing marksman is both less likely to hit and
more likely to be hit, and there are numerous other problems.
The popularity of Windows surged in 1995, when |
Microsoft began shipping Windows 95, which | David A. Fair
included many innovations that the Macintosh | SDS International
had introduced 10 years earlier. | dfair@sdslink.com
- Reuters, Friday, July 18, 1997 |
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com>
Cc: "'DFair@sdslink.com'" <DFair@sdslink.com>
Subject: Re: Oil Slick
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 09:45:08 -0400
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>However, the DEX drain it not the right mechanic here. If
>Bowhunter is standing, about to shoot his patented EverFly
>arrows, and Slick decides to throw an oil patch at his feet it
>will not effect Bowhunter at all. But modeling it as a DEX
>drain reduces his OCV because he happens to be standing
>in a puddle of oil.
It's a dispel DEX, actually. All or nothing.
Have you ever tried to pull an arrow from a quiver, draw and fire
accurately while standing on a frictionless surface? The superslick
power was intended to hamper anyone who has to make even a tiny motion
to attack or defend. Eye-beam Man with no recoil on his eye blasts,
could probably attack with no penalty, but would still be at 0 DCV.
>Using the DEX drain, a character with clinging cannot use that
>power to keep from falling, a standing marksman is both less
>likely to hit and more likely to be hit, and there are numerous
>other problems.
This power was intended to beat even clinging, that is true. If clinging
can be used to stop it, a -1/4 or -1/2 limitation on the slick power
would be appropriate. The standing marksman was intended to be both less
likely to hit and more likely to be hit, as explained above.
Dave Mattingly
P.S. Are you the David Fair from Haymaker?
Subject: Re: Vari-multi pools
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 97 09:56:51 -0400
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From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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>>To begin with, buy a variable power pool. Ignore the control cost for
>>a moment. Now, buy multislots normally, except that no power may
>>exceed the pool size in active points.
>>
>>Now, buy the control cost normally, with whatever limits you want.
>>
>>The multipower limitations and the control cost limitations are,
>>except as described above, completely independent of each other.
Perhaps you might just want to allow a multipower to have a VPP in an
ultra slot.
I mean, if your'e gonna bend 'em anyway, bend 'em HARD.
Plus it might be easier from a bookkeeping perspective.
The popularity of Windows surged in 1995, when |
Microsoft began shipping Windows 95, which | David A. Fair
included many innovations that the Macintosh | SDS International
had introduced 10 years earlier. | dfair@sdslink.com
- Reuters, Friday, July 18, 1997 |
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 09:59:48 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Question on Images
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> If you allow touch to be treated as a sense group, you're probably opening
> a pandora's box that isn't worth it ("my HKA (knife) is invisible to the
> touch sence group, he can't know I just stabbed him"). Use Mental Images
> Linked (sorry for my language) to the Images and then restricted the MI to
> only for creating "touch" sensations based on the images. This is
Eh? Touch _is_ a sense group. Both in real life and in
Champions.
The knife thing is actually a good idea -- they can see the knife
enter, but they didn't feel it. They felt the pain it caused, but not the
knife. Eh, kinda useless, I guess.
-Tim Gilberg
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 21:02:39 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD? - off topic
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>>> so jean grey can be the most powerful tK on the planet but a PC can't?
>>>
>>
>> Quite frankly, I wouldn't allow any PC in my game at the power levels
>>of any of the X-men, at their unbelievably inflated power levels....
>>
>
>how about wolvie? he's getting weaker all the time *lol*
>
I'm sorry. I get FWIW (for what it's worth), IIRC (if I recall correctly),
AFAIK (as far as I know), and just about every other acronym thrown around
here, but...
What's LOL? The only thing I can think of (since it seems to be an
expletive) is:
Lords of Light!
That's probably not it.
Somebody please enlighten me.
- Jerry
"Demon dogs!" - Thundarr the Barbarian
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 10:03:32 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer)
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> Sparx asked if we ever let a beginning PC start as the best in class in
> our campaigns. Have to say, none of our players tried to do this, but it
> could be accepted, especially certain categories; fastest speedster, most
> attractive, most prolific inventor, etc.
Sure, those might work. But strongest? Most indestructable?
Most powerful elementalist? Most powerful magic user? Most powerful
battle armor? These aren't quite within low level characters reach --
except maybe strongest. And even then, I limit PCs to 16 DCs of HTH
damage. That's an 80 STR. Sorry, Grond will still be stronger. (And
hopefully still dumber)
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 09:15:55 -0600
From: Curtis Gibson <Mhoram@apeleon.net>
Subject: Re: Vari-multi pools
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David Fair wrote:
>
> Perhaps you might just want to allow a multipower to have a VPP in an
> ultra slot.
>
> I mean, if your'e gonna bend 'em anyway, bend 'em HARD.
I've toyed with this idea actually. It would work well for a mage; his
multipower represents his standard spells, and the pool (with reserve
and pool cost coming out of the multipower reserve) represents other
spells, which aren't as powerfull, or as easy to get to.
Never had the nerve to use it though. 8)
--
-Mhoram
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your
two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 21:37:55 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Telekinesis
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TK - Is it usually Visible or not? I think Visible as default.
I also believe it's based on OCV/DCV, not ECV. How would one go
about making it more of a "mental" power? I've considered "Based on ECV"
just to affect the OCV, but that's a *big* Advantage just so you won't buy
up your DEX (and stay within character conception).
Also, should I charge END for "Fine Manipulation." It's ten points
(1 END), and HeroMaker seems to think I should. I'd like to lean the other way.
I'm looking for opinions, and maybe some "official" rulings...
house rules are very cool, too!
- Jerry
"Lords of Light!"
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions)
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Date: 05 Sep 1997 12:11:31 -0400
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
>> An oil slick or sheet of ice does not cause most people to fall over
>> every phase, not unless they are throwing caution to the wind.
F> Really? Ever tried to fistfight on a sheet of wet ice? Care to bet
F> you don't fall over constantly?
I have walked across frozen ponds and lakes and not fallen over at all.
The difference between my example and yours is that I am being cautious,
and you are not.
Like any continuous AoE power, Change Environment affects one during each
of one's action phases. Each phase one is not concentrating on maintaining
one's balance, one must make a Dexterity roll or fall down; characters with
Acrobatics do not need to roll. Or, for an area that is especially slick,
Dexterity with a penalty or Acrobatics with none or a lesser penalty.
F> Additionally, a sheet of ice has more than minor effects on cars and
F> especially motorcycles.
You've never seen ice motocross, have you. :) Seriously, though, I live in
New England, and while icy roads are not an every day thing we have to deal
with them frequently enough. If one keeps the speed down and is light on
the brakes, one can drive on a sheet of ice.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Oil Slick
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>>>>> "DF" == David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> writes:
DF> IMO, the better way to do an oil slick (or ice patch, etc.) is to
DF> use a combination of Martial Throw, Telekinesis, AOE, and Trigger
DF> (running or walking faster than 1"/phase in the AOE).
Telekenesis, because it works like Strength, obviates the need for Martial
Throw; simply use the "grab and throw" option.
DF> Using Martial Throw ensures that that the movement/momentum of the
DF> target is used against him,
This is bogus. If I am running across a sheet of ice and slip and fall,
the damage I take has nothing to do with how fast I was running. Only if I
actually slide into something does my velocity become a factor, and that is
a simple (if unintentional) Move Through.
I still think that Change Environment at the highest level of effect does
the right thing, though. It requires the least amount of tweaking to
achieved the desired effect.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
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Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 11:45:41 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: The pet NPC was (Re: Curbing the Power Gamer)
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>I agree that just turning players loose with a "most powerful X" up front
>can be dangerous. However, there probably is _some_ room for it, as long
>as both the player and the GM are prepaired to deal with it and recognize
>the character is a, more than usual, experiment and that the GM may have
>to snatch it if it's ever abused.
>
>PAX,
>John
I agree there is some room for it. And as long as the player and character
know the responsibility they are taking it would be great. But seriously,
out of my group of players, the chances of responsible most powerful X would
be slim. They would be seeking the most powerful X to be the most powerful
player and power game it. Also where does this leave the player to go? Not
much in the way of improvement if you are already the most powerful. Sure
they can beef up some skills now and other powers thus making the other
players feel more insignificant. On the flip side of the coin here though,
I did have a PC who became the strongest player in my campaign through
experience. He started as a brick and discussed with me on the side that he
wanted to keep putting points in strength until he was the strongest person
in the world. I ok'ed this, but because he started on equal playing terms
with everyone else and worked for improvement. To make a long story short,
the character is now a NPC not by my choosing but by the players who felt
the character would make a better villian than a hero. Both I and the other
players tried to talk him out of it, but it turned out that was what he was
planning from day 1. I do let him play the part of the villian if he
desires when he is around, but most of the time he likes going up against
the very bad guy he had a hand in creating.
Sparx
Subject: Re: Oil Slick
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 97 12:56:38 -0400
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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On 9/5/97 9:45 AM, Dave Mattingly (DaveM@FocusSoft.com) Said:
>Have you ever tried to pull an arrow from a quiver, draw and fire
>accurately while standing on a frictionless surface? The superslick
>power was intended to hamper anyone who has to make even a tiny motion
>to attack or defend. Eye-beam Man with no recoil on his eye blasts,
>could probably attack with no penalty, but would still be at 0 DCV.
I see your point more clearly now.
The popularity of Windows surged in 1995, when |
Microsoft began shipping Windows 95, which | David A. Fair
included many innovations that the Macintosh | SDS International
had introduced 10 years earlier. | dfair@sdslink.com
- Reuters, Friday, July 18, 1997 |
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Cheating
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 10:30:12 -0700 (PDT)
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>
> I appreciate everyone's opinion on the subject of cheating, and this
> is my reply to all those cheating GMs.
>
> Although, I seem to be standing alone on this issue. I'm sticking to my
> original position cheating isn't something a GM should take lightly.
> Cheating is an admission that the GM has screwed up beyond repair.
> I've only every had one instance where a player was in jeopardy due
> to bad dice rolls. I was playing Danger International, and the
> players belonged to a secret missions team. The team was in europe
> providing additional undercover guards for some high tech gizmo. The
> gizmo was being transported on a bullet train which was assaulted by
> onboard agents, and a few helicopters. The badguys slowed the train
> down, and detached most of the passenger cars. One of the heroes was
> in the rear section of the train, and made it to the front of the
> passenger section just in time to attempt a leap to the lead train
> section. I told the player what his chances of making it to the lead
> train section were, and he decided to go for it. The player failed
> his roll, and than I gave him a desperation roll where he tried to
> grab on to a piece of the undercarriage, and he failed that roll too.
> I stopped for a moment to decide on his fate, and came to the
> conclusion that his character must die to maintain the element of
> risk. In superhero games I've yet to kill a player's character. By
> allowing the hero to die I maintain an element of risk in my spy
> thrillers. This risk adds an element that is necessary in espionage
> games.
>
> An example of GM cheating that ruined the game for me. I was playing
> Top Secret SI, and at the conclusion of the scenario my character was
> trying to disarm a bomb on the Challenger shuttlecraft. The GM had me
> roll a single time which I succeeded at. The GM than told me I needed
> to roll again which I failed. Instead of blowing shuttle, and me up
> which he should have he had me roll again, and I succeeded. The tension
> he created by having my character risk his life was gone I knew the
> GM wouldn't kill my character.
>
> An example of a Player's blunder that I fixed. We were playing a time
> cop like scenario where the players were time police going back to
> stop time travellers from messing up the time line. The players left
> after the bad guys left, but before they arrived in the past. The
> players determined they needed to get some equipment because the time
> travel device can't transport non-organic objects. While the other
> player was out gathering equipment the bad guys arrived. There were
> three of them the rogue scientist, and his two body guards Billy, and
> Jimmy Lee genetically engineering martial art warriors. The player
> who always builds tough hand to hand characters decided to take them
> on even after I warned him off. The Player true to his words revealed
> him self to the bad guys, and proceeded to take Billy, and Jimmy Lee
> apart. While he was distracted the previously inactive rogue scientist
> unsheathed a sword cane carved from bone, and stabbed him in the
> back. They left the player's character in the street bleeding to
> death, and hopelessly unconscious. Being the generous GM I am I had
> the other player's character return in time to do first aid on his
> character. This is an example of how the GM can handle blunders you
> control the world, instead of voiding previous actions, or dice rolls
> handle them. I could of had a passer-by rescue him. This isn't
> cheating this is being a good GM. It's ok to give your heroes a lucky
> break when they need one.
>
> Another cheating GM a friend of mine created this situation in
> Western Hero. We were all in a bar, and most of us were meeting for
> the first time. Unfortunately two of the players stepped on each
> others psychological toes. One character a deadly gun fighter challenged
> a hulking scotsman immirgrant to an arm wrestle, and he placed five
> dollars on the table. The Scotsman being a joker grabbed up the five
> dollars, and thanked the gunfighter for his money. The gunfighter
> being upset at being robbed drew his gun, and shot the Scotsman. The
> Scotsman being hale, and hardy took the bullet, and drew his knife. The
> Gunfigter shot the Scotsman a second time, and he was knocked
> unconscious. The GM being rather upset at one of his players shooting
> another down had half the bar turn, and fire on the Gunfighter. There
> was no way that half the bar would have been able to react to the
> situation that quickly both I, and the Gunfighters player knew it.
> Unfortunately the GM didn't care, and to his rather dimwitted
> surprise they did enough damage to kill his character. Instead of
> killing his character he said he made a mistake, and changed
> remaining die rolls to low values. Once again both I, and the
> Gunfighters player knew he was fudging the dice rolls. The
> Gunfighters player still holds a grudge against that GM, and much
> prefers me as GameMaster. That player is the same one who's character
> was knifed down in my time cop scenario. He knows that I'm always
> fair, and I don't cheat either against, or for the players.
>
> In my experience as a player cheating has always taken away from the
> game. Usually the GM, or the player has screwed up in some way, so
> the GM feels it is necessary to cheat. Even in those situations where
> the players dice failed them they themselves, the GM, or the system
> put them in that situation.
>
> The following is my advice to handle screw-ups:
>
> 1. Don't put your players into situations where you might not like
> the results.
>
> 2. Don't go off half cocked, this often results in overkill.
>
> 3. Use characters, circumstances, and events in your world to correct
> those events that need fixing.
>
> 4. Don't fudge die rolls, and cheat this is an admission of failure.
>
> I've presented some situations that helped cement my opinion
> that cheating is a poor substitute for a well place nudge. GM's may
> think their cheating goes on unnoticed, but many times they're wrong.
>
>
> Vance Scott
>
> Vanquisher of all foes.
>
--
Rook
Also known as Arcady on #herochat and #Fuzionchat in DALnet IRC
herochat is a channel for discusion of the Hero system
Fuzionchat is for dicussion of Fuzion (C:NM, BGC, et all)
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Also, check out the new version of Villians & Vigilantes at
http://illusionmachines.com/personal/jeff/vandv.html
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 10:53:29 -0700 (PDT)
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>
> > Even when someone is obviously wrong; you have to listen. Only then
> > can you calmly correct them. And you just might find it was you who was
> > wrong.
> > If you have a player who insists on arguing every point; it's most
> > likely because they feel their views are not being heard. Sit down with
> > the person and let them explain it, then explain your views. Find something you
> > can agree on and work from there. In time their argumentative nature will
> > change to one which seeks to cooperate.
>
> I've developed a method to handle this kind of problem. I tell the
> players as they enter the campaign the following (in essence):
>
> "I'm the GM. GM is generally understood to be 'GOD': Game Operations
> Director. But I can make mistakes. I don't mind if you point these
> mistakes out to me, just do it after a session is over. In the middle of
> the adventure the GM's ruling in FINAL. If you have a problem with my
See, this is exactly what I was refering to. I find it's better to
resolve an issue the moment it comes up, calmly. Before it has a chance to
boil up. I've seen countless players told to wait till later who then just
sit and stew for the rest of the game, taking eveyone else mood down with them.
When I GM, the floors open, and when a debate comes up, I want
every one of my players involved. That way I know the issue is done and
settled for good once we've had our rap session over it.
After a while, the number of issues that come up starts to fade away.
People are often willing to take whatever you say if they know they can
disagree. But when you tell them they're not allowed to disagree until
later; they're all that more likely to disagree, even if they do it silently.
And I find someone who silently disagree's much harder to deal with than
someone's who willing to get it off their chest.
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 11:07:16 -0700 (PDT)
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> > Sparx asked if we ever let a beginning PC start as the best in class in
> > our campaigns. Have to say, none of our players tried to do this, but it
> > could be accepted, especially certain categories; fastest speedster, most
> > attractive, most prolific inventor, etc.
> Sure, those might work. But strongest? Most indestructable?
> Most powerful elementalist? Most powerful magic user? Most powerful
> battle armor? These aren't quite within low level characters reach --
Ack! They added levels to champsions !!!? :)
It's all a matter of champaign seeting. Obviously if we're doing a
PC's are not that significant game, no-one should be 'the most powerful
mage'. But id we're doing a 'PC's affect the destiny of the universe' game,
there's no problem with it.
Basically, are we doing Green Arrow/Electra, or are we doing
Superman/Silver Surfer?
--
Rook
Also known as Arcady on #herochat and #Fuzionchat in DALnet IRC
herochat is a channel for discusion of the Hero system
Fuzionchat is for dicussion of Fuzion (C:NM, BGC, et all)
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Also, check out the new version of Villians & Vigilantes at
http://illusionmachines.com/personal/jeff/vandv.html
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 11:31:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Steven Wells <slwells@ucdavis.edu>
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Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers
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On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, Brian Wong wrote:
> > "I'm the GM. GM is generally understood to be 'GOD': Game Operations
> > Director. But I can make mistakes. I don't mind if you point these
> > mistakes out to me, just do it after a session is over. In the middle of
> > the adventure the GM's ruling in FINAL. If you have a problem with my
>
> When I GM, the floors open, and when a debate comes up, I want
> every one of my players involved. That way I know the issue is done and
> settled for good once we've had our rap session over it.
I've played with both and felt that I'd throw in my 2 cents as well. My
preference when I GM is to have periodic Pepsi/donut/pizza/munchie breaks
every 2-3 hours. That's the time we use to rehash serious problems. At
times the breaks have turned into rewriting of rules and then we enter
playtesting when the session begins again.
However, things like "I'm not in their line-of-sight" or "how can they
possibly see me, it's an overcast night" issues are resolved immediately
by my judgement. I try not to be arbitrary and mitigating circumstances
are taken into account, but normally, the decision is final and applicable
to both sides. This may have other effects on the scenario that I had not
intended or forseen -- i.e. the overcast night is also a full moon and now
the players have better night vision too now.
Finally, I GM by choice and for fun. This is the same reason players play
with me. It's mutual. I am open to changes and recommendations and have
long told my players that rules are secondary in my opinion to enjoyment
and roleplaying. We compromise and press on.
Thanks for the great discussion!!!
--------------------------
Steven L. Wells
slwells@chip.ucdavis.edu
Member Team OS/2
--------------------------
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Cheating (apology for copied message)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 11:40:05 -0700 (PDT)
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Hmmm...
not yet sure how it happened, but I appears I
copied the original here and sent it off sans my comments and edits...
sorry about that. :(
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 15:20:54 -0500 (CDT)
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From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer)
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>> > Sparx asked if we ever let a beginning PC start as the best in class in
>> > our campaigns. Have to say, none of our players tried to do this, but it
>> > could be accepted, especially certain categories; fastest speedster, most
>> > attractive, most prolific inventor, etc.
>
>> Sure, those might work. But strongest? Most indestructable?
>> Most powerful elementalist? Most powerful magic user? Most powerful
>> battle armor? These aren't quite within low level characters reach --
>
> Ack! They added levels to champsions !!!? :)
>
>It's all a matter of champaign seeting. Obviously if we're doing a
>PC's are not that significant game, no-one should be 'the most powerful
>mage'. But id we're doing a 'PC's affect the destiny of the universe' game,
>there's no problem with it.
> Basically, are we doing Green Arrow/Electra, or are we doing
>Superman/Silver Surfer?
Those are some pretty big differences you have thrown up there. Green
Arrow/Electra vs Superman/Silver Surfer. Is it possible that the PCs may be
a very big part of the Universe as a whole but not necessarily the biggest,
baddest, strongest, toughest characters in that universe? My players are
the significant characters in the game, and they do so without being the
best. Maybe it is the stories I set up for them, maybe it is because they
are good at role playing and don't need to be the best to be important. The
other night, they as a team beat a villian that a more powerful NPC was
nearly killed by. What does this say? They should be more powerful so they
can take this villian on one on one. Or perhaps, the team is a very
significant part of the universe and without each other would have been
dead. All I am saying is I believe players should start on middle ground.
By no means should they be insignificant to a game, but starting them as the
best they can be, leaves very little room for growth. Unless there are NPCs
that are better then them, then even if they had a 1d6 HKA and no one else
did, THAT would make them the best at that. NPCs have to exist, and yes,
some have to be better than the players. Otherwise there is nothing to
strive for. "I'm the best, I know it, gee...now what?" They can save the
world a hundred times over I suppose, move on to saving the universe, but
sounds pretty boring to me. I know the majority here read comics, would it
be safe to say that new characters such as Green Lantern (Kyle version) are
not as powerful as Superman right now? Would it be equally as safe to say
he has the potential to be equal to or even more powerful? That is how I
set up my games, there are Supermen (NPCs) and there are PCs that could
exceed the Supermen of the world, but they need some effort in doing it, not
just because they are good at number crunching and point breaks when making
a character. These NPCs are there to outshine the PCs. They aren't even
usually known about, but every now and then one will come to the PCs for
help and that makes the team feel just a little bit better about themselves
when they succeed at something that Superman just couldn't do by himself.
Sure they start off going, "Well if you can't do it, we can't." But they
try and sometimes they find they need to plan things out a bit better and
other times they find that all that was required was a team. These NPCs
also work great as contacts and for favors, but like I said I don't outshine
the team or use the NPCs as a crutch. If an alien invasion is happening you
can't just call NPC Dude to stop it because you don't think you can handle
it. He is busy doing his own things and might be around to help you later
if possible (usually isn't) but don't sit around and let the world be taken
over hoping he'll come to save the day (he won't).
Sparx
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 16:22:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: Wayne J Shaw <shaw@IDT.NET>
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Subject: Re: Question on Images
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On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
> > If you allow touch to be treated as a sense group, you're probably opening
> > a pandora's box that isn't worth it ("my HKA (knife) is invisible to the
> > touch sence group, he can't know I just stabbed him"). Use Mental Images
> > Linked (sorry for my language) to the Images and then restricted the MI to
> > only for creating "touch" sensations based on the images. This is
>
>
> Eh? Touch _is_ a sense group. Both in real life and in
> Champions.
Uh, no, it isn't in Champions. Rather deliberately wasn't made one. Open
your book up and look. The groups are Sight, Hearing, Taste/Smell, Radio,
Mental and Unusual.
Subject: Re: The pet NPC was (Re: Curbing the Power Gamer)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 97 18:46:04 -0400
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
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Sparx psansone@i1.net 9/5/97 12:45 PM
> ... They would be seeking the most powerful X to be the most powerful
>player and power game it. Also where does this leave the player to go? Not
>much in the way of improvement if you are already the most powerful.
Well, yes and no. Being the most powerful individual doesn't make you
omnipotent
by any means. Generally, it means your opponents are "very nearly the
most
powerful" in other categories and large groups of less powerful beings are
gunning for you. In my experience, a "most powerful" type is best off
keeping
as low a profile as possible. Ever seen _The Fastest Gun Alive_? Its a
real
good example of why I feel that way. :)
The result of all this is "where to go" becomes more an issue of earning
contacts
and followers (many of whom are as much DNPCs as anything else). Points
start
getting sunk into bases and vehicles as well. Ultimately, the
"improvement" largely
just moves off the sheet and becomes intangles, i.e. roleplaying, and
seeing
what you can do, quietly, and indirectly. Just MHO of corse.
PAX,
John
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 17:49:49 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: GM's Corner - Cheating
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Vance Scott <vances@sympatico.ca> writes:
>
> I appreciate everyone's opinion on the subject of cheating, and this
> is my reply to all those cheating GMs.
>
> Although, I seem to be standing alone on this issue. I'm sticking to my
> original position cheating isn't something a GM should take lightly.
> Cheating is an admission that the GM has screwed up beyond repair.
I disagree. Guess it depends on exactly what we mean by cheating.
Your example of the bar fight scene, where the GM got upset and had all
the NPC's shoot at one of the characters is not 'cheating'. The GM has
control over the NPC's actions. Is it bad GM'ing ? Yes ! The NPC's
had no *in-character reason* to do that.
>
> The following is my advice to handle screw-ups:
>
> 1. Don't put your players into situations where you might not like
> the results.
>
I agree with this. I ran the 'Demons Rule' scenario in which the PC's
are trying to stop a demonic invasion. Unfortunately, they lost the
climactic battle. If you're going to run a save-the-world episode,
then there should be some chance that the heroes are going to fail.
How many GM's out there no longer run these kinds of scenarios because
they don't want to deal with the results if the players screw up ?
> 3. Use characters, circumstances, and events in your world to correct
> those events that need fixing.
>
> 4. Don't fudge die rolls, and cheat this is an admission of failure.
>
> I've presented some situations that helped cement my opinion
> that cheating is a poor substitute for a well place nudge. GM's may
> think their cheating goes on unnoticed, but many times they're wrong.
>
What's the difference between fudging die rolls and a well placed nudge ?
I tell my players up front when they join the game that the GM is allowed
to cheat. If they don't like it, they don't have to play. I've mentioned
at least once "either I'm cheating, or there's something going on that
your character doesn't know about".
Would I keep a villain conscious so that a character who hasn't had
a chance to get any hits in get the final blow ? YES
Would I have NPC's act out of character because I was ticked off by
something a PC did ? NO
Back when I was using rolled stun multiples for killing attacks, would
I decrease a maximum damage roll so a character wouldn't be one-punched ?
YES
Curt Hicks
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:18:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer)
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From: willggeiger@juno.com (William G Geiger)
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Interesting anecdote about the mighty PC/NPC who went bad, Sparx. I'd
like to hear more about him.
Obviously, I picked those categories regarding PCs who are best in their
class (fastest speedster, most attractive, most prolific inventor, etc.)
with an eye towards game balance. You can run a good medium-powered game
and still have one or two best-in-class PCs, if you are careful about
what class this is.
Aloha, WillGGeiger@juno.com
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Sat, 06 Sep 1997 10:46:33 +1000
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Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
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At 03:40 AM 9/4/97 -0700, you wrote:
>jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
>
>>
>> so jean grey can be the most powerful tK on the planet but a PC can't?
>>
>
> Quite frankly, I wouldn't allow any PC in my game at the power levels
>of any of the X-men, at their unbelievably inflated power levels....
>
how about wolvie? he's getting weaker all the time *lol*
> Okay, actually, MOST games (as far as I've experienced) tend to have
>the PC's somewhere in the middle of the power level spectrum. On the
>other hand, maybe a PC *could* be the most powerful TKer on the planet,
>but otherwise be a somewhat feeble, fragile person, as long as the
>points balance out.
>
and i see no problem with this- it's the beuty of the system. i mean, how good is jean grey in a fist-fight? and she has pretty much been the worlds most powerful psi since
day one, unless someone can come up with another contender?
>--
> -Capt. Spith
> Savior of Humanity
> Secular Messiah
>
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Sat, 06 Sep 1997 10:52:22 +1000
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Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was ( Is there a need for SPD?)
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At 07:06 AM 9/4/97 -0600, you wrote:
<snippety snip-snip>
>In the realms of controlling the powergamer, I've been lucky never to
>have had to GM any. All my players have been wonderfull. In my wife's
>campaign (which I helped GM a bit) we had 2 that were pretty scary. One
>of them we never could get the ideas of roleplaying across to, and gave
>him an inviatation to the world. The other, once we explained that his
>50 CON was a tad excessive (and showing him that the nastiest brick in
>the campaign only had a 38) started to see how what he envisioned as
>"Strongest" and what was truly "Strongest" in the campaign were not the
>same. I've found in being (early on) and playing with a number of
>'powergamers' that sometimes it is just that they are a 'pro from dover'
>and don't understand exactly where they stand in the campaign. Once they
>get a feel, then they mellow out. I did. 8)
>
>
>
>--
>-Mhoram
>"That's right I said _reformed_ powergamer!"
>
is there really anything wrong with this? one of my favorite power-concepts is diehard, a guy who is virtually unkillable. He's got damage reduction, life support and absorbtion feeding to body. So basically he can't be killed. he has normal charicteristic maxima +/- some speed, and his max attack is 13d6, but he can't be killed. What's wrong with this?
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Sat, 06 Sep 1997 11:07:06 +1000
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Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
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At 10:12 AM 9/4/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Think of it this way, say you were in my game. You were playing the average
>character that you designed because I knew you weren't a power gamer.
how did you know? active point totals? body language? ink blots?
>Now I
>decide because the players have talked me into it to let someone surpass
>this TK NPC. All of a sudden the rest of the team reaches near uselessness
>because Mr. Power Gamer
why is he a power-gamer? why is the rest of the team useless?
>is the most powerful TK, not to mention knowing the
>power gamers I have ran with, cover every skill the team has and then some
>and normally better then the person who has just one or two of the skills.
how? how does MR pg get the points for the skills on top of anything else?
>This is the point where I as the GM am to say NO. So Mr. Power Gamer goes
>back home and the next week comes back with another character. This time he
>only has familiarities in the skills and his TK is even more powerful
>because he had the points to do it. I say NO again, he scratches out some
>stuff and adds the points to his TK. Now I say NO to the TK, he goes back
>home. Meanwhile, the rest of my players are frustrated playing with him and
>frustrated wasting game time because this guy is a power gamer.
so if somebody hadn't used the term 'power gamer' evberybody would wait patiently?
>If I would
>have stopped it and said, "Ok, give me your character sheet, I'll adapt him
>to the right level for next game." The trouble will be done and over with.
>He might not be happy, but the majority of the players will be including
>myself. I will state that this is not an exaggeration. I have had this
>happen on more than one occasion (way to many than I can say). Simply
>asking the player not to play does not work since he is friends with half
>the group and they want him there, just not his characters. I have had more
>than one player do it. I try to let players design there own characters and
>give them that freedom, but there comes a point where I pull the plug on it.
> Ok, so I might have rambled on a bit here. My point is, exactly. Jean
>Grey can be the most powerful TK and the PC can not unless of course I OK
>it. If a player sits down and gives me an origin saying I'm the most
>powerful TK on the planet, without ever telling me before hand then we have
>to talk. Or of course, I just prove him wrong :)
>
>Sparx
>
>
most of the logic above hinges on the statement 'because he's a powergamer'-
that's not a valid argument. I do not see how you can label someone a power-gamer
just because they want a cool power. I have played both ends of the spectrum, and
so called 'power gamers' tend to build more interesting pc's- you say above that
power gamers cover the other pc's skill, but isn't that what 'balanced' pc's are about?
It seems 'balanced' is defined as an entire team of heros, all who can bounce bullets, have mental and power defence, plus all having 'useful noncombat skills' - i.e.
skills to go with whatever cliche the group endorses- " if your a master of disguise you should have acting' is one, another is 'you should take points out of computer programming and buy electronics' is another.
What it comes down to is that despite all the stuff about power-gamers, their character are actually more realistic- what's more likely, someone getting one power or many?
not to metion that the 'many' powers all happen to be valid combat -concepts, while
a high-power system often wastes a lot of points if designed properly.
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Sat, 06 Sep 1997 11:18:53 +1000
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At 02:18 PM 9/4/97 -0400, you wrote:
>All well and good ponts about how GMs should not be dictators, but my
>personal experience does not indicate this is usually a problem.
>Debating a ruling in the middle of a firefight, at great length, is
>usually a problem, moreso than the ruling itself.
> Aloha, WillGGeiger@juno.com
>
the problem arises when a gm makes a snap ruling- the players accet it for that reason, but then the gm won't debate the ruling later- by saying 'it's laready been decided'.
This may sound unlikely, but i've seen it happen many times.
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Sat, 06 Sep 1997 11:21:03 +1000
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Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
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At 02:29 PM 9/4/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>>> Exactly. In my campaign I already have the most powerful TK as a NPC, if a
>>> player comes to me and tells me I want to be the MOST powerful TK they
>>> better have a good reason for surpassing the NPC.
>>
>>Hmm. Reminds me of some campaigns I've played in, where the GM had
>>more fun playing his NPCs than we did as PCs. It was great for him
>>when his NPCs would show up the PCs, mainly because he didn't write
>>down the NPCs stats (and could thus do anything he wanted).
>>
>>I hate that type of campaign.
>>
>>Guy
>
>Woah there, I think you have me mistaken for someone else. What I am saying
>is that the NPC exists as a balance and a reference point for me and the
>players. Now, let's see, if I were to ask any of my players to name TK NPC
>or even the sex of this character, they wouldn't be able to. Why? Because
>they've never met him before. I don't run many NPC characters. They exist,
>because I run a game where other heroes are known to exist. They also exist
>so Mr. Power Gamer doesn't come in and say I'm the most powerful hero on the
>planet simply because he is the best of the PCs. No, he isn't there are
>NPCs he has to take in account too. And being a super hero doesn't give you
>access to the Super Hero Club where you know each and every hero.
>
what the hell is wrong with him saying tha? are you saying if someone says that, then mr mets-TK turns up and stomps him? i really hope i've misunderstood. . .
and i really hope i'm not making points people have already made and had replied to later on (80 posts and counting) *lol*
>As far as background on this TK NPC, he knows he is powerful, but no where
>would he think he was the most powerful TK, he is simply a hero doing what
>he thinks must be done. He operates in California, my players operate out
>of New Hampshire. As I said, he is there for color, for checks and balance,
>and yes, if need be catch rogue PCs. But if there was a world-wide alien
>invasion game I was running, my PCs wouldn't be able to get much help from
>him, he'd be out doing his own thing. Same with other such heroes, they
>aren't there to help the heroes much or overshadow them, they are there
>because it is a world with Super Heroes and to claim the PCs have the most
>powerful or even the only super powers would not be very realistic in MY
>campaign.
>
>MY campaign has over 100 such NPCs of which the characters might meet a
>dozen of in a year real time game play and might team up with one or two,
>but even then, he or she follows the team's lead for whatever reason. They
>are the experts in this area, it is their home town....etc.. etc...
>
>Thanks for jumping to conclusions though. Take it easy and talk at you later.
>
>Sparx
>
>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 20:22:24 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
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cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD? - off topic
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> I'm sorry. I get FWIW (for what it's worth), IIRC (if I recall correctly),
> AFAIK (as far as I know), and just about every other acronym thrown around
> here, but...
>
> What's LOL? The only thing I can think of (since it seems to be an
> expletive) is:
Actually it means 'Laughs Out Loud'. There is also, LOLSTC 'Laughs Out
Loud, Scares The Cat', a louder version. I see it on MUSHes alot, not as
much in email.
TokyoMark
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Sat, 06 Sep 1997 11:22:35 +1000
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Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
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At 03:42 PM 9/4/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>
>> Brian Wong wrote:
>> >
>> > Part of the golden rule of a good GM is to not outshine the
>> > PC's with your NPC's.
>>
>> But I agree with the above. The "pet NPC" problem was one of thje
>> more annoying phenomenon that I encountered early on in my gaming
>>
>> On the other hand, I have constantly come acroos players who want to
>> have the best character in the group. To be able to outshine everyone
>> sort of competitiveness is something that I view as being counter to the
>> activity of roleplaying games period. RPGs are supposed to be group
>>
>
> I agree with you 100%. This is a distinction that must be made.
>
>
i agree, except about the 'constantly' bit- let's all view our own opinions with a touch of scepticism, shall we? *s*
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Sat, 06 Sep 1997 11:25:28 +1000
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At 03:34 PM 9/4/97 -0700, you wrote:
> On the other hand, I have constantly come acroos players who want to
>have the best character in the group. To be able to outshine everyone
>else by having more power and more everything than anyone else. This
>sort of competitiveness is something that I view as being counter to the
>activity of roleplaying games period. RPGs are supposed to be group
>efforts, which depends on the group working together to achieve whatever
>their goals are. Not to allow some showboating gloryhog to relegate the
>rest of the group into the role of audience.
>
>
enough about the gm, what about the players? *lol*
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From: "Marc Seebass" <kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Cheating
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 97 18:25:34 PDT
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----------
> I appreciate everyone's opinion on the subject of cheating, and this
> is my reply to all those cheating GMs.
>
> Although, I seem to be standing alone on this issue. I'm sticking to my
> original position cheating isn't something a GM should take lightly.
> Cheating is an admission that the GM has screwed up beyond repair.
> I've only every had one instance where a player was in jeopardy due
> to bad dice rolls. I was playing Danger International, and the
> players belonged to a secret missions team. The team was in europe
> providing additional undercover guards for some high tech gizmo. The
> gizmo was being transported on a bullet train which was assaulted by
> onboard agents, and a few helicopters. The badguys slowed the train
> down, and detached most of the passenger cars. One of the heroes was
> in the rear section of the train, and made it to the front of the
> passenger section just in time to attempt a leap to the lead train
> section. I told the player what his chances of making it to the lead
> train section were, and he decided to go for it. The player failed
> his roll, and than I gave him a desperation roll where he tried to
> grab on to a piece of the undercarriage, and he failed that roll too.
> I stopped for a moment to decide on his fate, and came to the
> conclusion that his character must die to maintain the element of
> risk. In superhero games I've yet to kill a player's character. By
> allowing the hero to die I maintain an element of risk in my spy
> thrillers. This risk adds an element that is necessary in espionage
> games.
>
> An example of GM cheating that ruined the game for me. I was playing
> Top Secret SI, and at the conclusion of the scenario my character was
> trying to disarm a bomb on the Challenger shuttlecraft. The GM had me
> roll a single time which I succeeded at. The GM than told me I needed
> to roll again which I failed. Instead of blowing shuttle, and me up
> which he should have he had me roll again, and I succeeded. The tension
> he created by having my character risk his life was gone I knew the
> GM wouldn't kill my character.
>
> An example of a Player's blunder that I fixed. We were playing a time
> cop like scenario where the players were time police going back to
> stop time travellers from messing up the time line. The players left
> after the bad guys left, but before they arrived in the past. The
> players determined they needed to get some equipment because the time
> travel device can't transport non-organic objects. While the other
> player was out gathering equipment the bad guys arrived. There were
> three of them the rogue scientist, and his two body guards Billy, and
> Jimmy Lee genetically engineering martial art warriors. The player
> who always builds tough hand to hand characters decided to take them
> on even after I warned him off. The Player true to his words revealed
> him self to the bad guys, and proceeded to take Billy, and Jimmy Lee
> apart. While he was distracted the previously inactive rogue scientist
> unsheathed a sword cane carved from bone, and stabbed him in the
> back. They left the player's character in the street bleeding to
> death, and hopelessly unconscious. Being the generous GM I am I had
> the other player's character return in time to do first aid on his
> character. This is an example of how the GM can handle blunders you
> control the world, instead of voiding previous actions, or dice rolls
> handle them. I could of had a passer-by rescue him. This isn't
> cheating this is being a good GM. It's ok to give your heroes a lucky
> break when they need one.
>
> Another cheating GM a friend of mine created this situation in
> Western Hero. We were all in a bar, and most of us were meeting for
> the first time. Unfortunately two of the players stepped on each
> others psychological toes. One character a deadly gun fighter challenged
> a hulking scotsman immirgrant to an arm wrestle, and he placed five
> dollars on the table. The Scotsman being a joker grabbed up the five
> dollars, and thanked the gunfighter for his money. The gunfighter
> being upset at being robbed drew his gun, and shot the Scotsman. The
> Scotsman being hale, and hardy took the bullet, and drew his knife. The
> Gunfigter shot the Scotsman a second time, and he was knocked
> unconscious. The GM being rather upset at one of his players shooting
> another down had half the bar turn, and fire on the Gunfighter. There
> was no way that half the bar would have been able to react to the
> situation that quickly both I, and the Gunfighters player knew it.
> Unfortunately the GM didn't care, and to his rather dimwitted
> surprise they did enough damage to kill his character. Instead of
> killing his character he said he made a mistake, and changed
> remaining die rolls to low values. Once again both I, and the
> Gunfighters player knew he was fudging the dice rolls. The
> Gunfighters player still holds a grudge against that GM, and much
> prefers me as GameMaster. That player is the same one who's character
> was knifed down in my time cop scenario. He knows that I'm always
> fair, and I don't cheat either against, or for the players.
>
> In my experience as a player cheating has always taken away from the
> game. Usually the GM, or the player has screwed up in some way, so
> the GM feels it is necessary to cheat. Even in those situations where
> the players dice failed them they themselves, the GM, or the system
> put them in that situation.
>
> The following is my advice to handle screw-ups:
>
> 1. Don't put your players into situations where you might not like
> the results.
>
> 2. Don't go off half cocked, this often results in overkill.
>
> 3. Use characters, circumstances, and events in your world to correct
> those events that need fixing.
>
> 4. Don't fudge die rolls, and cheat this is an admission of failure.
>
> I've presented some situations that helped cement my opinion
> that cheating is a poor substitute for a well place nudge. GM's may
> think their cheating goes on unnoticed, but many times they're wrong.
>
>
> Vance Scott
>
> Vanquisher of all foes.
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Sat, 06 Sep 1997 11:29:26 +1000
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Subject: Re: The pet NPC was (Re: Curbing the Power Gamer)
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At 09:59 PM 9/4/97 -0500, you wrote:
>I don't know if you bothered reading about my last post about how my "pet"
>NPC has never been seen by my players, and I'm not about to requote the
>whole thing here. Go back and read it, if you don't want to, don't, not a
>big deal for me. I did want to address something else here though. It was
>stated by a couple of people that the NPCs should not outshine the PCs. If
>you read my previous post you would find that even my more powerful NPCs
>never outshine the PCs and in most cases come to the PCs for help. What I
>want to point out here or rather ask is this. How many of you as GMs let
>your players start with the most powerful TK, Brick, Energy Projector,
>etc... in the campaign? I'm talking the most powerful, that is what we were
>talking about. There is no equal or superior be it PC or NPC. I find it
>hard to believe that many GMs would allow such a character to exist. There
>are always better, there are always PCs who are going to try to top it, so
>instead of bestowing that title to a PC and starting a one-up game with the
>other players,
why wpuld it do this? why would a psycic compete with an energy projector?
what, in active point totals?
>why not stop it before it starts and say, "You are NOT the
>most powerful." This doesn't say you can't become the most powerful, it
>simply states you aren't starting a character that is. Makes sense to me,
>maybe I'm just odd that way. Talk at you later.
>
very odd- a beginning pc can still be brimming with power, especially if they are meant to have had a career before the campaign started. The trick is to balance points efficiance- the classic 'new mutant' is one with lots of horsepower, but few skills, ect. Why is this wrong? are we back to the 'points spent on skills equals better roleplayer' fallacy?
>Sparx
>
>
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Sat, 06 Sep 1997 11:36:56 +1000
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At 10:03 AM 9/5/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>> Sparx asked if we ever let a beginning PC start as the best in class in
>> our campaigns. Have to say, none of our players tried to do this, but it
>> could be accepted, especially certain categories; fastest speedster, most
>> attractive, most prolific inventor, etc.
>
>
> Sure, those might work. But strongest? Most indestructable?
>Most powerful elementalist? Most powerful magic user? Most powerful
>battle armor? These aren't quite within low level characters reach --
>except maybe strongest. And even then, I limit PCs to 16 DCs of HTH
>damage. That's an 80 STR. Sorry, Grond will still be stronger. (And
>hopefully still dumber)
>
>
> -Tim Gilberg
>
>
what's wrong with strongest? and how about this- sure you can control the elements, but not very well yet. . let 'em have the horsepower, just limit their control.. .
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 21:41:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was ( Is there a need for SPD?)
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-10,16-18
From: willggeiger@juno.com (William G Geiger)
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Aloha, WillGGeiger@juno.com
On Sat, 06 Sep 1997 10:52:22 +1000 jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au writes:
one of my favorite
>power-concepts is diehard, a guy who is virtually unkillable. He's got
>damage reduction, life support and absorbtion feeding to body. So
>basically he can't be killed. he has normal charicteristic maxima +/-
>some speed, and his max attack is 13d6, but he can't be killed. What's
>wrong with this?
>
As written, even this character could be slain with a (don't say it,
Will---NO!) BODY Drain, such as a poison, disease, demon sword, etc. The
above character could also be one of those Highlander-style Immortals,
with Lim. on Dam. Reduction and Absorbtion, not vs. head shots, or 14-
Act. if you don't use Hit Locations, -1/2. For these Immortals, I would
not have the Damage Reduction work vs. STUN, either, -1.
Jerry, I did not know any of those acronyms except LOL: Laugh Out Loud.
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 01:42:34 +0000
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Cheating
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net
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On 5 Sep 97 at 10:49, Vance Scott wrote:
<snip good examples on good and bad "cheating", and some advice on
how to avoid and correct problems>
Some additional rules, since most of your rules didn't actually
involve _how_ to cheat:
Cheat very rarely.
Be careful to cheat as invisibly as possible.
Cheat only for important things (campaigns, rarely games, very rarely
players).
When it is do or die, _allow the players to DIE_. This is especially
important for campaigns that lead up to a final, climactic battle-
the battle is only truly dramatic if the players can fail.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 01:42:34 +0000
Subject: Re: Seattle Players
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net
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On 5 Sep 97 at 22:20, rbezold wrote:
> It never occured to me to try this before now, but are there any Hero
> game players in Seattle?
>
I live in Federal Way. However, I don't game much these days,
strictly PBEM at this time.
Besides, I haven't been a player, except at cons, in years now. There
is only one GM I've ever had who I definitely would go back to it
for.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 01:42:34 +0000
Subject: Re: Vari-multi pools
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net
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On 5 Sep 97 at 6:48, Earl Kwallek wrote:
> At 07:34 PM 9/4/97 +0000, Filksinger wrote:
> >To begin with, buy a variable power pool. Ignore the control cost for
> >a moment. Now, buy multislots normally, except that no power may
> >exceed the pool size in active points.
> >
> >Now, buy the control cost normally, with whatever limits you want.
> >
> >The multipower limitations and the control cost limitations are,
> >except as described above, completely independent of each other.
> >
> >This allows, for example, a weather controlling character who can
> >summon up certain well-practiced effects reliably, but takes extra
> >effort, time, and/or difficulty for other effects that fit the pool.
> >
> >What do you think? (BTW, if you just hate multipowers or VPPs, please
> >just ignore me. Thank you. Frankly, I allow very few VPPs myself.)
> >
>
> I'm having difficulty visualizing what your talking about, a character
> example would be helpful here. Something showing costs, and some exmple
> powers....
> This might be what I need for that shapechanging (any animal) character....
Very well. My first character was before VPP, but when they came out,
I gave him one as an NPC, since it seemed to fit. He was a sorcerer
who had "The Ring of Merlin", a storage pool of mystic energy.
A possible use of this for him might be:
80 Pool Cost (80 pts)
10 m 10d6 EB
10 m 25 PD, 25 ED Force Field
10 m 25" Flight
20 Control Cost (40 Active), Gestures, Incantations, x2 END, Requires
skill roll.
The character is highly practiced with his primary combat spells, and
can simply point and fire, so to speak. He has no limitations on
these slots, except those inherent in the Multipower framework.
However, in emergencies, he can summon up mystic energy, and using
his Magic Roll, extra effort, and a lot of chanting and arm waving,
he can summon up other powers.
"The Darkmage is casting a spell of transformation! Save us!!"
The mage above begins chanting and waving his arms, and if he makes
the skill rolls (one to change the points, one to use the power), he
creates 10 Power Defense, Usable by others, Area Effect, thus
shielding his teammates who don't have his defenses. Also using the
energy that was powering his Force Field...
Another example might be an extremely flexible and powerful
mentalist. Normally, the mentalist has Telepathy, Ego Attack, Mind
Scan, Telepathy, and Mind Control, and these would be in slots. In
special cases, she can do almost anything that can be defined as a
Mental Power, Clairvoyance ("I can see through his eyes"),
Transformation, Based upon ECV ("I have cured him. His personalities
are one"), Aid to Ego ("Now I add my will to yours"), or whatever the
player comes up with and I approve (or I want, in the case of an
NPC).
The purpose is to make some powers as reliable as Multipower slots,
while others are as limited as you want to make the VPP.
Does this help explain?
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 01:42:34 +0000
Subject: Re: Vari-multi pools
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On 4 Sep 97 at 19:33, champ-l@omg.org wrote:
> I realize that not everyone likes VPP, and for that matter not
> everyone likes Multipowers. However, for those who do, I have an idea
> I would like to run past you.
>
When I first came up with this power, I considered it to be possibly
very abusive to the rules. In fact, I still had serious doubts about
it as of last night. However, in trying to write up an example, I
came to a realization.
Consider the two examples below:
VPP
50 Pool Cost (50)
75 Control Cost (25), No time to change (+1), No Roll Needed (+1)
(A "Cosmic" pool)
VMP
50 Pool Cost (50)
10 m 10d6 EB
10 m 5d6 Entangle
10 m 25 PD, 25 ED Force Field
10 m 25" Flight
10 m 25" Teleportation
25 Control Cost (25)
The two frameworks above have exactly the same cost, but the standard
"Cosmic" power pool is _far_ more powerful, flexible, and abusive.
If you really want to, give it the "Cosmic" advantages, and limit the
Advantages: Only for the five listed powers (-1/2). This saves points
over my method _and_ costs less.
After due consideration, I have to conclude that my VMP is no more
unbalancing than VPP was to begin with, and in fact is less
unbalancing than "Cosmic" power pools.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 01:51:52 +0000
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was ( Is there a need for SPD?)
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On 6 Sep 97 at 0:34, Captain Spith wrote:
> jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
>
> > is there really anything wrong with this? one of my favorite power-concepts is >diehard, a guy who is virtually unkillable. He's got damage reduction, life support and >absorbtion feeding to body. >
> I've made a couple of 'unkillables' before, but I've always felt that
> to maintain a balance, the offensive capabilities of someone
> indestructable should be *very* restricted; I wouldn't allow any more
> than the LOW edge of average level for offense in this case.
On that I have to disagree. So long as the character can be beaten as
easily as anyone else, always living no matter what is minor.
In a four-color campaign, how much does it matter if the villain is
unkillable? After all, the heroes aren't supposed to kill him
anyway. If he can be knocked out, that's all the players intended,
anyway. As for a hero, he may never die, but that can be interesting
to play in and of itself, and it does almost nothing towards making
the character more effective.
"You aren't the Ghost! I saw him _die_!"
or
"If you aren't a traitor, then why are you the only one alive?"
This, of course, assumes that the character's immortallity _only_
affects his living, and doesn't give other benefits. IOW, this only
applies if the character can be knocked out and otherwise disabled.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 21:55:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD? - off topic
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On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
> >how about wolvie? he's getting weaker all the time *lol*
> >
>
> I'm sorry. I get FWIW (for what it's worth), IIRC (if I recall correctly),
> AFAIK (as far as I know), and just about every other acronym thrown around
> here, but...
>
> What's LOL? The only thing I can think of (since it seems to be an
> expletive) is:
>
> Lords of Light!
>
> That's probably not it.
> Somebody please enlighten me.
Nope, that's not it. LOL is - Laughing Out Loud.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 22:00:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Telekinesis
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On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
> TK - Is it usually Visible or not? I think Visible as default.
> I also believe it's based on OCV/DCV, not ECV. How would one go
> about making it more of a "mental" power? I've considered "Based on ECV"
> just to affect the OCV, but that's a *big* Advantage just so you won't buy
> up your DEX (and stay within character conception).
> Also, should I charge END for "Fine Manipulation." It's ten points
> (1 END), and HeroMaker seems to think I should. I'd like to lean the
other way.
> I'm looking for opinions, and maybe some "official" rulings...
> house rules are very cool, too!
I have written some extensive 'house rules' regarding Telekinesis (and to
a greater extent psychokinesis). These rules, which describe how to treat
TK in a more anime flavor, also make the power more of a mental effect.
For example: the power is invsible to the eye (although the effects of the
power are not), one can affect objects through visually transparent
barriers without buying indirect, Fine Manipulation is based on DEX not
points in TK, etc.
If you have web access, go to
http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/kazei5.html and follow the
psychokinesis link.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 20:19:40 -0700
From: Darrin Kelley <flashbak@pacbell.net>
Reply-To: flashbak@pacbell.net
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
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jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
> At 03:34 PM 9/4/97 -0700, you wrote:
> > On the other hand, I have constantly come acroos players who want
> to
> >have the best character in the group. To be able to outshine everyone
>
> >else by having more power and more everything than anyone else. This
> >sort of competitiveness is something that I view as being counter to
> the
> >activity of roleplaying games period. RPGs are supposed to be group
> >efforts, which depends on the group working together to achieve
> whatever
> >their goals are. Not to allow some showboating gloryhog to relegate
> the
> >rest of the group into the role of audience.
> >
> >
>
> enough about the gm, what about the players? *lol*
The issue I cited above swings both ways. It has just as much effect
on the other players as it does the GM. The problem is a group problem.
One that must be taken care of for the good of the group. Sometimes that
forces ths GM to take the lead. But it truly is an issue of group
harmony.
Reply-To: <@psn.net@omg.org>
From: "Jeff O'Connor" <joconnor@psn.net>
Subject: Phoenix Players?
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 21:36:50 -0700
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Hello! I am looking for players in Phoenix, AZ - or anywhere within a sane
distance. Specifically, I am looking for 4th ed. players, though I'm open
to Fuzion if need be. If anyone is interested out there, let me know.
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 23:11:34 -0600
From: Curtis Gibson <Mhoram@apeleon.net>
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers
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Brian Wong wrote:
>
> >
> > > Even when someone is obviously wrong; you have to listen. Only then
> > > can you calmly correct them. And you just might find it was you who was
> > > wrong.
> > > If you have a player who insists on arguing every point; it's most
> > > likely because they feel their views are not being heard. Sit down with
> > > the person and let them explain it, then explain your views. Find something you
> > > can agree on and work from there. In time their argumentative nature will
> > > change to one which seeks to cooperate.
> >
> > I've developed a method to handle this kind of problem. I tell the
> > players as they enter the campaign the following (in essence):
> >
> > "I'm the GM. GM is generally understood to be 'GOD': Game Operations
> > Director. But I can make mistakes. I don't mind if you point these
> > mistakes out to me, just do it after a session is over. In the middle of
> > the adventure the GM's ruling in FINAL. If you have a problem with my
>
> See, this is exactly what I was refering to. I find it's better to
> resolve an issue the moment it comes up, calmly. Before it has a chance to
> boil up. I've seen countless players told to wait till later who then just
> sit and stew for the rest of the game, taking eveyone else mood down with them.
>
> When I GM, the floors open, and when a debate comes up, I want
> every one of my players involved. That way I know the issue is done and
> settled for good once we've had our rap session over it.
> After a while, the number of issues that come up starts to fade away.
> People are often willing to take whatever you say if they know they can
> disagree. But when you tell them they're not allowed to disagree until
> later; they're all that more likely to disagree, even if they do it silently.
> And I find someone who silently disagree's much harder to deal with than
> someone's who willing to get it off their chest.
I see your point, and I have been in a campaign where that worked well,
but when I instigated the talk later ruling, I had a number of 'rules
lawyers' (2 actually), and if I didn't shut it down hard, and then talk
later, almost every session would come to a grinding halt while the
argument ensued. The rules lawyer and I would argue/discuss and all the
other players would be bored out of thier skulls. It was getting to the
point that I had comments from other players to do something about what
was happening.
Also, and I don't know how much bearing this has but, our sessions run
at most 4 hours with an average of three, and I would _always_ talk to
the person right after the session. I wouldn't want anything to fester.
The first few times caused some bad feelings, but after it became clear
that 1) I would always talk to them afterwords, and 2) If a mistake were
made the cosmic balance would swing back and reward them at some later
date, I never had any bad feelings. Now all that happens is that someone
will say 'point of contention' or somesuch and it will be discussed
later. I have found that just admitting I was wrong still leaves bad
feelings, that's why I put in the 'bribe'. "Alright I was wrong and it
screwed you up, but sometime when you blow a roll or roll lousy on
damage, I'll let you make it, or do much better as recompence". It does
a very good job of soothing hurt feelings. It shows that I'm not
dictatorial for dictatorialness sake. I want my players to have fun, and
a reward to a character I've hurt by my mistake should get a bonus to
balance the scales.
And in referance to another post, my 'arbitrary' descicions are usually
on how a power is handled, not in plot. I run very player described
plots... The comments (in another thread I think) about the Raid/bedbugs
things, and the stealthing down the middle of the street don't come up.
If something is left undescribed and I play it one way and the player
had envisioned something else, I correct the world not the player. It's
his character not mine. This could be abused by players, but luckily I
have a very mature group.
Hope that clarifies things.
--
-Mhoram
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your
two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Sat, 06 Sep 1997 15:40:09 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
Subject: Re: Seattle Players
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all right, i'll bite- are there any players on list who live in central queensland, australia? didn't think so .. . . . . *l*
At 10:20 PM 9/5/97 -0800, you wrote:
>It never occured to me to try this before now, but are there any Hero
>game players in Seattle?
>
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 22:20:10 -0800
From: rbezold <rbezold@nwrain.com>
Subject: Seattle Players
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It never occured to me to try this before now, but are there any Hero
game players in Seattle?
Comments: Authenticated sender is <korthmat@pilot.msu.edu>
From: "Matt Korth" <korthmat@cps.msu.edu>
Organization: I don't think so, Tim.
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 02:40:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD? - off topic
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> > I'm sorry. I get FWIW (for what it's worth), IIRC (if I recall correctly),
> > AFAIK (as far as I know), and just about every other acronym thrown around
> > here, but...
> >
> > What's LOL? The only thing I can think of (since it seems to be an
> > expletive) is:
>
> Actually it means 'Laughs Out Loud'. There is also, LOLSTC 'Laughs Out
> Loud, Scares The Cat', a louder version. I see it on MUSHes alot, not as
> much in email.
And the related variations, ROTFL (rolling on the floor laughing) and
ROTFLMAO (rolling on the floor laughing my *ss off), of course...
--
korthmat@cps.msu.edu http://www.cps.msu.edu/~korthmat
*** People who send me UBE/UCE will be crucified. ***
Maj. Burns: "Don't tell me he sleeps with you!"
Radar: "I'm hoping to do better, sir."
--regarding Radar's teddy bear
Date: Sat, 06 Sep 1997 00:08:00 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD? - off topic
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Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>
> >>> so jean grey can be the most powerful tK on the planet but a PC can't?
> >>>
> >>
> >> Quite frankly, I wouldn't allow any PC in my game at the power levels
> >>of any of the X-men, at their unbelievably inflated power levels....
> >>
> >
> >how about wolvie? he's getting weaker all the time *lol*
> >
>
> I'm sorry. I get FWIW (for what it's worth), IIRC (if I recall correctly),
> AFAIK (as far as I know), and just about every other acronym thrown around
> here, but...
>
> What's LOL? The only thing I can think of (since it seems to be an
> expletive) is:
>
> Lords of Light!
>
> That's probably not it.
> Somebody please enlighten me.
>
Laugh Out Loud. There's also ROFLOL - Rolling On Floor, Laughing Out
Loud.
Also, though I haven't seen it lately, watch out for YMMV - Your Mileage
May Vary (indicating personal opinion or experience which may not be
universal).
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Date: Sat, 06 Sep 1997 00:34:49 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was ( Is there a need for SPD?)
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jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
> is there really anything wrong with this? one of my favorite power-concepts is >diehard, a guy who is virtually unkillable. He's got damage reduction, life support and >absorbtion feeding to body. So basically he can't be killed. he has normal >charicteristic maxima +/- some speed, and his max attack is 13d6, but he can't be >killed. What's wrong with this?
I've made a couple of 'unkillables' before, but I've always felt that
to maintain a balance, the offensive capabilities of someone
indestructable should be *very* restricted; I wouldn't allow any more
than the LOW edge of average level for offense in this case.
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Date: Sat, 06 Sep 1997 00:57:41 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: PC's as Storytellers[Was;The pet NPC etc...]
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Sparx wrote:
<<Snipped some nice PC development>>
> To make a long story short,
> the character is now a NPC not by my choosing but by the players who felt
> the character would make a better villian than a hero. Both I and the other
> players tried to talk him out of it, but it turned out that was what he was
> planning from day 1. I do let him play the part of the villian if he
> desires when he is around, but most of the time he likes going up against
> the very bad guy he had a hand in creating.
>
> Sparx
This is the type of Player I love to have in my game! In my last game
session, the PC's were up against the Cult of the Elder Worm, and one of
the cult's High Tech tools was a MindGem gun which would shoot these
little jewels into peoples' foreheads which would act as a conduit for
an immense Mind Control, making them minions of the Elder Worm.
Ennyhow, one of the PC's was tagged, and had 5 levels of shrinking,
so nobody could come to his aid, so he remained a servant of the Elder
Worm when the rest of the team had to leave. The Player thought this
was great! He has an alternate character which he had been switching to
occasionally, so he could still be in the game, and his 'recruited'
character will be back someday soon to use his knowledge of the team for
the service of the Elder Worm. At which point I may very well let him
play his character against the team if he wants.
The point being, it's nice to have players who enjoy the overall
crafting of an interesting story as much as personal character growth
and development.
Any other GMs have Players/experiences like this? (You mean POSITIVE
GMing stories?)
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Date: Sat, 06 Sep 1997 01:26:37 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Vari-multi pools
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John P Weatherman wrote:
> I've actually been toying with this idea for handling magic. In that
> case, I was considering requiring a skill roll OR buying a slot in the
> multi-power. The combination is certainly a hybred, but seems workable.
The method I used to use (before I created my own special Power
Modifier) was a Simple VPP with the appropriate limitations for magic -
whatever you require in your own magic system, gestures, extra time,
materials, etc. - plus a 1/4 to 1/2 limitation; Requires Familiarity(1
pt.)(-1/4) or Skill Roll(3+ pts.)(-1/2) for all spells.
This gives a VPP framework for versatility, but also has 'slots' for
the more familiar spells used. With this setup, I usually allow the
pool's manipulation skill to be used for spells not already 'paid for',
but with a -1/5 active points both to change powers AND to use the
spell. I haven't crunched any numbers on this method, but it has
generally 'felt' right to me.
> PAX,
> John
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 06 Sep 97 12:33:09
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Oil Slick
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On Fri, 5 Sep 97 12:56:38 -0400, David Fair wrote:
>>Have you ever tried to pull an arrow from a quiver, draw and fire
>>accurately while standing on a frictionless surface? The superslick
>>power was intended to hamper anyone who has to make even a tiny motion
>>to attack or defend. Eye-beam Man with no recoil on his eye blasts,
>>could probably attack with no penalty, but would still be at 0 DCV.
>
>I see your point more clearly now.
OTOH if I'm standing still, the oil will pool *around* my feet, so as
long as I don't move my feet, I'm fine.
If you want a pure super-slick surface, try an Entangle with
appropriate limitations and advantages.
qts
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 08:31:59 -0500 (CDT)
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From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: The pet NPC was (Re: Curbing the Power Gamer)
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>Well, yes and no. Being the most powerful individual doesn't make you
>omnipotent
>by any means. Generally, it means your opponents are "very nearly the
>most
>powerful" in other categories and large groups of less powerful beings are
>gunning for you. In my experience, a "most powerful" type is best off
>keeping
>as low a profile as possible. Ever seen _The Fastest Gun Alive_? Its a
>real
>good example of why I feel that way. :)
>
>The result of all this is "where to go" becomes more an issue of earning
>contacts
>and followers (many of whom are as much DNPCs as anything else). Points
>start
>getting sunk into bases and vehicles as well. Ultimately, the
>"improvement" largely
>just moves off the sheet and becomes intangles, i.e. roleplaying, and
>seeing
>what you can do, quietly, and indirectly. Just MHO of corse.
>
>
>PAX,
>John
Well, I agree, and I wish I could say my players go along these lines, but
they don't. The most powerful X makes them drunk with power. The only
improvements they do is to one-up each other and the general team falls
apart in complaining about who X hero is and why he is so powerful compared
to them at least until they can reach that level. Different games produce
different attitudes as we are seeing.
Sparx
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From: John Doe <juan@henge.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 07:53:11 -0600
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Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
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At 11:07 AM 9/6/97 +1000, Jones wrote:
>>Think of it this way, say you were in my game. You were playing the average
>>character that you designed because I knew you weren't a power gamer.
>how did you know? active point totals? body language? ink blots?
>most of the logic above hinges on the statement 'because he's a powergamer'-
>that's not a valid argument. I do not see how you can label someone a
>power-gamer just because they want a cool power.
I agree here. Some specifics and details would work wonders. If the guy is
the kind who takes four +1/4 limits on his power frameworks that in no way
limit the character's powers, then I might agree he's a power gamer. If he
has absolutely no rationale why he has Armor, Force Field, Telekinesis, Hand
Attack, Enhanced Vision and Superleap in an elementral control called
"Superpowers," then he might be a power gamer. (If he was a system veteran
and not a beginner who misunderstood.) If he tried to use telekinesis in
non-heroic ways (I have no range modifiers and a big pair of binoculars) I
might agree he was a power gamer. (All of these examples are from real life.)
> I have played both ends of the spectrum, and
>so called 'power gamers' tend to build more interesting pc's- you say above
> that It seems 'balanced' is defined as an entire team of heros, all who can
> bounce bullets, have mental and power defence, plus all having 'useful
> noncombat skills' - i.e. skills to go with whatever cliche the group endorses
> - " if your a master of disguise you should have acting' is one, another
is 'you
> should take points out of computer programming and buy electronics' is
> another.
>
I think you have to use some examples, too, Jones. What do you mean? He
never has said they all had to bounce bullets, they all had to have power
defence, etc. I think the point was that they all _SHOULDN'T_ have to have
those things, but that each one should have some of those abilities.
I am reading this first thing in the morning, I may be slow, can you explain
that last sentence about the comp. prog and the electronics? It makes no
sense to my smeary brain.
>What it comes down to is that despite all the stuff about power-gamers,
their >character are actually more realistic- what's more likely, someone
getting one >power or many? not to metion that the 'many' powers all happen
to be valid >combat -concepts, while a high-power system often wastes a lot
of points if >designed properly.
Oh, I beg to differ, unless you mean "interesting" in the sense of the
Chinese curse. Here's where that guy I mentioned before comes in, Mr. High
Teek with the Penetra- and Ranged- vision. He had TK at ungodly levels w/o
range mods, N-ray vision, and telescopic, too. The GM, who was new to this
guy, if not to the rest of us, didn't smell a rat until the first fight.
Then this guy tried to hide on a building far away and teek at the bad guys.
Very "realistic?" no. Show me a hero who does this who is not a) comic
relief or b) the team's "uncooperative jerk" ala Talisman from the Justice
Machine. Our hero didn't want to hear the GM ask that he act more heroic.
It was in character, he said, for his guy to behave so.
More annoying for the group, if two supers ever squared off (we were a
mobile lot and often fought where the fighting fit rather than Hero X vs.
Villain Y), the Teeker would wait for us to knock down the villain, then
grab and pound him. No matter what effect or lack of effect it had on the
villain, he would crow to the other player "Hey, saved your bacon" or "I
got him for ya" or some similar comment. Now, we had some INTERESTING
characters in the group (IMO). We had a Texas Ranger who had been abducted
by aliens and gifted with high-tech analogues of his old equipment, we had
Primeival Man who reverted to mankind's early origins, we had Grimalkin who
was a member of a magically-created slave-race to witches. Some of those
characters (notably the Ranger) had cool powers but real lacks in defense.
If a big nasty was stomping towards him, we ALL pitched in to help, but none
of the other _players_ gave Zeke's player a hard time about saving his rear.
He was another hero, one of us.
Strangely enough, more of our fights started happening indoors, where Bozo
couldn't reach his TK (he could SEE, of course). He didn't take the option
of actually joining the fight, he tried buying a big mind link skill so he
could warn us of each impending blow. (Annoying the heck out of us.)
Jones, can you give us an example of a powermonger character that was more
"superhero realistic" than the rest of the campaign?
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org
From: John Doe <juan@henge.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 07:53:17 -0600
X-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero)
Subject: Re: Vari-multi pools
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At 01:42 AM 9/6/97 +0000, you wrote:
> Snip Ring of Merlin
>
>80 Pool Cost (80 pts)
>10 m 10d6 EB
>10 m 25 PD, 25 ED Force Field
>10 m 25" Flight
>
>20 Control Cost (40 Active), Gestures, Incantations, x2 END, Requires
> skill roll.
>
>The mage above begins chanting and waving his arms, and if he makes
>the skill rolls (one to change the points, one to use the power), he
>creates 10 Power Defense, Usable by others, Area Effect, thus
>shielding his teammates who don't have his defenses. Also using the
>energy that was powering his Force Field...
>The purpose is to make some powers as reliable as Multipower slots,
>while others are as limited as you want to make the VPP.
I think this is a really NEAT idea! It gives you the basic powers the world
sees and allows the character to really "focus" his energies to do other
things. Heck, in a way this is what certain Marvel characters have done
when they used their "big gun" attack in extremis. (I've kicked the comics
monkey for a coupla years, so excuse me if these examples are dated.) I
think the Torch's Nova Blast might be a trade-in like the above, as might
Nova's big Nova thingy.
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 11:53:33 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: Oil Slick
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On 5 Sep 1997, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> I still think that Change Environment at the highest level of effect does
> the right thing, though.
Umm, Rat... Change Environment doesn't _have_ different levels of effect.
If it did, I'd be less leery of allowing it to simulate effects like oil
spills. As it is, the only level available is the "no effect on combat"
level (with minor effects grudginly allowed as an optional rule).
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Sat, 06 Sep 1997 21:03:43 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re:Body Drain (was Curbing the Power Gamer was ( Is there a
need for SPD?))
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John Lansford wrote:
<discussion about unkillable character snipped>
>Nothing at all in my book. You didn't say how much life support he has
>but I'll assume the max so he can't be suffocated or gassed, but he
>CAN die. It would just take a very strong killing attack or perhaps a
>KA AVLD like radiation.
>
>Of course, a BODY drain or transfer could kill him as well, since
>those would not trigger his Absorption power.
>
Yes, it all comes back together...
Mr. Lansford, how do you treat Body Drains and Transfers? Can they
kill? Use the "optional" rules in Hero System Almanac I (Champions III) or
a house rule variant?
I'm sorry this is off subject, but I don't want to let this go. : P
- Jerry
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 12:57:51 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
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Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer)
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On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> > Sparx asked if we ever let a beginning PC start as the best in class in
> > our campaigns. Have to say, none of our players tried to do this, but it
> > could be accepted, especially certain categories; fastest speedster, most
> > attractive, most prolific inventor, etc.
Obviously, this all depends on the power level of the campaign; there's
nothing wrong with having the PCs be the world's premiere superteam, in
which case best of just about anything could be allowed. Of course, the
average Champions campaign has the PCs somewhere around the middle of the
range - the X-Men rather than the Avengers, so to speak. (Although the
X-Men themselves have gotten rather inflated in power level recently.)
Assuming we're talking about this power level...
> Sure, those might work. But strongest?
Only if it's heavily limited. Eg: a character who had the ability to
channel the power of Earth's Geosphere; her upper limit on STR was _way_
above anybody else, but the upper levels required enough concentration and
END expenditure to make them near-useless. (Of course, the amount she
could usefully channel increased with experience.)
> Most indestructable?
No problem at all with this one. I'd expect such a character's offensive
abilities to be towards the low end, but this would be pretty much
inevitable anyway if they're spending that much on defenses.
> Most powerful elementalist?
Sure. Heck, "elementalist" isn't exactly a standard character archetype...
the PC could easily be the _only_ elementalist in the campaign.
> Most powerful magic user?
This is almost definitely out - mages tend to be pretty damn powerful in
ths superhero genre.
> Most powerful battle armor?
Probably not, but it depends on how you feel super-tech compares to
paranormal powers. It's entirely possible that the most powerful body
armour is only middle-of-the-road compared to actual supers.
> These aren't quite within low level characters reach --
> except maybe strongest.
Interesting - strongest is one of the last I'd allow.
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 13:04:19 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions
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On Thu, 4 Sep 1997, David Streeter wrote:
> Although, I would probably only dare to claim that _almost_ anything
> can be modelled. If they added a "general advantage" to mirror the
> "general limitation", however...
A general advantage would be, IMO, tantamount to just saying "You can make
up your own Powers, too"; it wouldn't add anything to the rules. It's a
sign of an incomplete creation system, not a versatile one.
> One sort of power that isn't intrinsically in the rules is a power
> that costs END to turn it OFF.
My first thought would be to buy the Power Always On, calculate how much
it would cost to buy off the Always On Limitation, and buy that Costs END.
However, the suggestion to use Variable Limitation is more elegant and
much more kosher.
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 13:10:33 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
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Subject: Re: Speed
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> > 3rd, Flash effects, note there are *no* modifiers for ambient
> > conditions (a flash in full sunlight really *isn't* going to work too
> > well.)
Actually, there are... read the section on Special Effects at the
beginning of the Powers chapter. (In particular, note the example on the
bottom left of page 53, which is almost exactly analogous.) It would be
silly to put these in the definition of Flash itself, of course, since
there's no reason to assume every Flash is going to have the special
effect "flash of light".
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Sat, 06 Sep 1997 23:09:37 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers
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Michael Jones : P wrote:
>>The GM has to enforce both the genre and the storyline at the same time. If
>>a player insists on doing things that takes the character "off on a tangent"
>>it's the GM's job to get the players back "on the storyline" in the least
>>obtrusive way possible. Flying off on an unrelated plotline can be deadly,
>>both to a face to face game and in a message based game. If one character is
>>doing it on his or her own, then the rest of the players end up sitting
>>around doing nothing and getting bored. If one character (or more)
>>character(s) are involved, then the best trick is to somehow change the red
>>herring to a different color (much easier to do in message based game). The
>>GM also has to keep in mind what he or she is prepared to run and what they
>>can not run. If the players go off on such a wild tangent that the GM didn't
>>have time to prepare for it, then only disaster can ensue.
>>
>
>sorry, but rubbish. Improvisation is the basis of roleplaying, and a good
gm won't use this sort of attitude to herd the pc's back on track. That
tired old 'other players get bored' thing is obslete- why not let them
control npc's? or just switch back and forth?
>anyone who's channel-surfed will be able to keep up. ...
>There's also the ideal of leading the back conceptually- relating the
'stray plot'
>to the larger story, which is a classic plot twist:
Well, I have personally had more luck than some with the "channel-surfing"
in the game. The last group I started, they met in groups of two, and I
alternated between three different pairs until they all met in the center
(of the plot and, incidentally, a shopping mall).
But I know some people's experiences ain't so hoopy. Some of mine haven't
been. Wandering attention spans, sneaking off to get a smoke, look in the
fridge (ignore the game, is what I mean)...
>"so, this is your cousin clarence? pleased to meet- oh, my god! he bears
the mark of flubby!"
Incidentally... Don't look now, Jones, but... YOU bear the mark of flubby!
: )
>>A good segment of roleplaying players like to play characters that are "the
>>best at what they do." (I consider myself in the minority as I find
>>characters with flaws are much more interesting to play.)
>
>what? so being good at one thing pakes a character flawless? sorry again,
but no likely!
>i'd say having high horsepower AND other frailties can be very interesting. . .
>
Don't think that's what he's saying. I think he means that most peoply tend
to stratify characters to those two extremes. Obviously, you don't. I,
too, might enjoy playing a *very* eccentric genius... That would fit both
o' those types.
>>Problems usually
>>occur when one character is vastly more powerful or experienced than the
>>other characters. It's the GM's job to somehow keep the Robins of his gaming
>>world as important as the Supermans, when they're PCs of course. This is an
>>incredibly hard task to accomplish without pissing off someone.
>>
>
>again with the extremes! if all the pc's have equal CP they should be
playing between two possible extremes-
>high power, little experiance (skills, csl's and sl's) - i.e. gen X mutant
types. .
>Low power, hight experiance - i.e. martial artists, grizzled old vetrans,
mystery men
>
Some players I know, when they started out, were scared off Disadvantages.
The old argument of "But those would Disadvantage me!" : ) So, they were
built on less points. Also, players more experienced with the system can
eke *many* more effective points out of their characters than, say, someone
who won't take *any* Limitations on their Powers, or who doesn't know where
the Characteristic point breaks are.
>>Ontop of all this, there will always be players that are more outgoing then
>>others. Just like balancing the character's importance in the game, you have
>>to balance the importance of the "attention getter" with the "wallflower."
>> If you don't, both will end up loosing interest.
>>
>
>and this has what to do with power-gaming?
>
Here's where I have the biggest problem with your comments. This isn't
(neccessarily) about Power-Gaming. I don't believe the previous poster
brought it up at all, really. He was speaking more of playing style than
character creation. Hence, this isn't the thread entitled "Curbing the
Power Gamer."
<snipped the end>
- Jerry
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 13:21:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Telekinesis
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 4-6,8-27
From: willggeiger@juno.com (William G Geiger)
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Yes, base TK is Visible, vs. OCV/DCV. The biggest problem I have with TK
Based on ECV is that I'm not sure you can affect non-sentient targets
with it. If you plan on making a character with an EGO higher than his
DEX, consider buying extra DEX, for TK CV only (-1) [my own estimate,
considering you get no adds to SPD, DCV, other OCVs, initiative, etc.].
Aloha, WillGGeiger@juno.com
On Fri, 05 Sep 1997 21:37:55 +0600 Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
writes:
>TK - Is it usually Visible or not? I think Visible as default.
> I also believe it's based on OCV/DCV, not ECV. How would one
>go
>about making it more of a "mental" power? I've considered "Based on
>ECV"
>just to affect the OCV, but that's a *big* Advantage just so you won't
>buy
>up your DEX (and stay within character conception).
> Also, should I charge END for "Fine Manipulation." It's ten
>points
>(1 END), and HeroMaker seems to think I should. I'd like to lean the
>other way.
> I'm looking for opinions, and maybe some "official" rulings...
>house rules are very cool, too!
>
>- Jerry
>"Lords of Light!"
>
>
From: Legionair@aol.com
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 16:04:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers
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In a message dated 97-09-05 07:39:30 EDT, rook@sanfran.infinex.com (Brian
Wong) writes:
<< You know; that's a good point. Too many people who GM put themselves
on this high, undemocratic chair. Once there they ruthlessly beat down any
discention amoung the ranks. No viewpoint but the GM's becomes valid.
How did we reach this state when the hobby comes from a country which
prides itself on it's claim to democratic ideals. Or even in a hobby which
itself proclaims cooperation over competition.>>
I agree and I disagree at the same time. The GM has to weigh a number of
different things in order to run a game properly...
A) The Storyline.
B) The Characters.
C) The Players.
The GM has to enforce both the genre and the storyline at the same time. If
a player insists on doing things that takes the character "off on a tangent"
it's the GM's job to get the players back "on the storyline" in the least
obtrusive way possible. Flying off on an unrelated plotline can be deadly,
both to a face to face game and in a message based game. If one character is
doing it on his or her own, then the rest of the players end up sitting
around doing nothing and getting bored. If one character (or more)
character(s) are involved, then the best trick is to somehow change the red
herring to a different color (much easier to do in message based game). The
GM also has to keep in mind what he or she is prepared to run and what they
can not run. If the players go off on such a wild tangent that the GM didn't
have time to prepare for it, then only disaster can ensue.
A good segment of roleplaying players like to play characters that are "the
best at what they do." (I consider myself in the minority as I find
characters with flaws are much more interesting to play.) Problems usually
occur when one character is vastly more powerful or experienced than the
other characters. It's the GM's job to somehow keep the Robins of his gaming
world as important as the Supermans, when they're PCs of course. This is an
incredibly hard task to accomplish without pissing off someone.
Ontop of all this, there will always be players that are more outgoing then
others. Just like balancing the character's importance in the game, you have
to balance the importance of the "attention getter" with the "wallflower."
If you don't, both will end up loosing interest.
What players have to come to terms with is "the GM's word is law." This
works as long as the GM doesn't take the term too seriously. The idea is to
have fun. The players are participating in a fantasy that's being created in
the head of the GM. The GM usually has reasons for most decisions. Debating
each decision isn't what I would call fun.
I've been on both sides of the above situations... When GMs have had falling
ons with a player in a game and so forth. The only good way to deal with it
is as quickly as possible. If you don't let it lie, it usually ends up
escalating into something much worse.
Jason Galterio
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 16:26:12 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer)
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>Interesting anecdote about the mighty PC/NPC who went bad, Sparx. I'd
>like to hear more about him.
I'd like to when I get the time.
Sparx
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 16:28:14 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was ( Is there a need for SPD?)
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>is there really anything wrong with this? one of my favorite power-concepts
is diehard, a guy who is virtually unkillable. He's got damage reduction,
life support and absorbtion feeding to body. So basically he can't be
killed. he has normal charicteristic maxima +/- some speed, and his max
attack is 13d6, but he can't be killed. What's wrong with this?
I would allow this type of character. Doesn't seem like there is anything
wrong with it for my campaign levels.
Sparx
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 16:53:41 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
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>At 10:12 AM 9/4/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>>Think of it this way, say you were in my game. You were playing the average
>>character that you designed because I knew you weren't a power gamer.
>
>how did you know? active point totals? body language? ink blots?
Well, we use to use the ink blots to determine if you were a power gamer or
not, but then it occured to me, that I should see if the character was
balanced with the game. Or if the other players come to me and complain
about a certain player's characters. Both are legit ways and both have been
done.
>why is he a power-gamer? why is the rest of the team useless?
Well, my definition of a power gamer is any one who builds a new character
that rivals the team in power. Or a character that seems to be able to do
everything and more than the team. Another form of a power gamer is a
person who demands the spotlight of the game and refuses to let anyone else
take any glory. Let me give you a real life example. I had two players.
One was playing a professional burglar/hero. The other was playing a high
school kid with some martial arts abilities. So when the game requires a
sneak into a high security facility who would you think could get you in.
According to the power gamer, the high school student actually had better
abilities than the burglar. And he attempted to justify them. So the
character playing the burglar retired the character and brought in a martial
artist/mentalist. During some games I run a training session where the team
splits in two and fights each other experience points awarded to the winning
team. After winning many fights but finally losing two to the new martial
artist/mentalist Mr. PG comes to me with his character and says he has
fought the mentalist enough and lost that his character has gained mental
defenses. He claims his martial artist disciplines have taught him to
control his mind as the defense for this. Ok, first off two fights I don't
think he would adapt any quicker than say getting hit by two bullets. But
if you want to argue that he could, he had a 10 Ego and a 10 Int. Hardened,
trained mind? I don't think so. I gave it to him based on an Ego Roll.
You can imagine where the next points started going. The other player who
felt she had to switch characters was now upset because he was covering her
spot again and came straight out and told him to let her know when he was
going to start using mental powers and she would make a new character. He
switched characters after a while. Next target: Three energy projectors,
all of who he was superior then. Great strife in that team, let me tell
you. Why does the team feel useless you ask? Because Mr. PG made them feel
second fiddle to him. Another reason. When you have a character that is
more powerful, say he could take a 20d6 attack and the rest of the team can
only take a 14d6 attack. Say he also could deal as good as he could take
and same with the team. All of a sudden, he is either wiping up all the
villians they normally are equal with OR the team is facing villians that
only he could handle. Either way, made many of my players feel like sitting
down and watching him show his stuff.
>how? how does MR pg get the points for the skills on top of anything else?
Simple, Mr. PG knows how to get point breaks. Knows where to throw various
limitations, and knows how to bend the rules enough that where everyone else
weighs in around 300 points, maybe up to 350 active. He is coming in around
400 - 500 active points. Loved the personal unbreakable focus he did.
>
>>This is the point where I as the GM am to say NO. So Mr. Power Gamer goes
>>back home and the next week comes back with another character. This time he
>>only has familiarities in the skills and his TK is even more powerful
>>because he had the points to do it. I say NO again, he scratches out some
>>stuff and adds the points to his TK. Now I say NO to the TK, he goes back
>>home. Meanwhile, the rest of my players are frustrated playing with him and
>>frustrated wasting game time because this guy is a power gamer.
>
>so if somebody hadn't used the term 'power gamer' evberybody would wait
patiently?
No, they would still get pretty frustrated, and the term power gamer was
never actually spoken at the time, though everyone knew from playing with
him. By the way there was more than one. Just giving an example.
>>If I would
>>have stopped it and said, "Ok, give me your character sheet, I'll adapt him
>>to the right level for next game." The trouble will be done and over with.
>>He might not be happy, but the majority of the players will be including
>>myself. I will state that this is not an exaggeration. I have had this
>>happen on more than one occasion (way to many than I can say). Simply
>>asking the player not to play does not work since he is friends with half
>>the group and they want him there, just not his characters. I have had more
>>than one player do it. I try to let players design there own characters and
>>give them that freedom, but there comes a point where I pull the plug on it.
>> Ok, so I might have rambled on a bit here. My point is, exactly. Jean
>>Grey can be the most powerful TK and the PC can not unless of course I OK
>>it. If a player sits down and gives me an origin saying I'm the most
>>powerful TK on the planet, without ever telling me before hand then we have
>>to talk. Or of course, I just prove him wrong :)
>>
>>Sparx
>>
>>
>
>most of the logic above hinges on the statement 'because he's a powergamer'-
>that's not a valid argument. I do not see how you can label someone a
power-gamer
>just because they want a cool power.
Well, it is a valid arguement, considering the name of the posts are
"Curbing the Power Gamer" you would think that the Curbing the Power Gamer
would be the subject of conversation. Let me see if I do understand you
here though. You are saying if someone wanted a cool power and they weren't
a power gamer would I allow it? Yes, I would. If someone that I have
played with and found to be a good player came to me and asked to be the
most powerful TK I would probably ok it, letting them know that it is
possible the character will be removed it a problem arises. Or what they
think is the most powerful may turn out to be wrong. Someone here even
pointed out that they would only allow 80 Str making many villians more
powerful than them.
I have played both ends of the spectrum, and
>so called 'power gamers' tend to build more interesting pc's- you say above
that
>power gamers cover the other pc's skill, but isn't that what 'balanced'
pc's are about?
No, see my definition above. I'm not sure what you are asking here. Is it
possible for a player to have a balanced character. Sure. Is it possible
that a kid with martial arts can also be a computer programmer, lion
trainer, professional burglar, and scientist by the age of 16? Probably
not, ecspecially if he or she is just doing it so he or she can be better
than the computer programmer, professional burglar and scientist on the team
already.
>It seems 'balanced' is defined as an entire team of heros, all who can
bounce bullets, have mental and power defence, plus all having 'useful
noncombat skills' - i.e.
That's not what I said. I currently am running a game where each character
has strong points and weak points and very few overlap each other. The team
needs each other to be balanced. Very seldom do you find one individual who
can do it all.
>skills to go with whatever cliche the group endorses- " if your a master of
disguise you should have acting' is one, another is 'you should take points
out of computer programming and buy electronics' is another.
>
True enough, skills should compliment each other. It doesn't make sense
when you just have every skill on the list, just to have them. There are
exceptions of course, but for the average hero?
>What it comes down to is that despite all the stuff about power-gamers,
their character are actually more realistic- what's more likely, someone
getting one power or many?
More realistic? I don't think so. There is a difference in being balanced
and using mechanics to be superior to all other players on the team. Sure
that would be balanced if you helped each and every player make a similiar
character, but if you play in a world where everyone has one or two powers,
you know this, and you come in with 10 or 12 powers just to rival them how
do you think they'll feel?
Sparx
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 16:59:44 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
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>At 02:29 PM 9/4/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>>
>>>> Exactly. In my campaign I already have the most powerful TK as a NPC,
if a
>>>> player comes to me and tells me I want to be the MOST powerful TK they
>>>> better have a good reason for surpassing the NPC.
>>>
>>>Hmm. Reminds me of some campaigns I've played in, where the GM had
>>>more fun playing his NPCs than we did as PCs. It was great for him
>>>when his NPCs would show up the PCs, mainly because he didn't write
>>>down the NPCs stats (and could thus do anything he wanted).
>>>
>>>I hate that type of campaign.
>>>
>>>Guy
>>
>>Woah there, I think you have me mistaken for someone else. What I am saying
>>is that the NPC exists as a balance and a reference point for me and the
>>players. Now, let's see, if I were to ask any of my players to name TK NPC
>>or even the sex of this character, they wouldn't be able to. Why? Because
>>they've never met him before. I don't run many NPC characters. They exist,
>>because I run a game where other heroes are known to exist. They also exist
>>so Mr. Power Gamer doesn't come in and say I'm the most powerful hero on the
>>planet simply because he is the best of the PCs. No, he isn't there are
>>NPCs he has to take in account too. And being a super hero doesn't give you
>>access to the Super Hero Club where you know each and every hero.
>>
>
>what the hell is wrong with him saying tha? are you saying if someone says
that, then mr mets-TK turns up and stomps him? i really hope i've
misunderstood. . .
>and i really hope i'm not making points people have already made and had
replied to later on (80 posts and counting) *lol*
I really don't mean to misunderstand you here, but it is kind of choppy,
could you reword this. I'll answer what I think you mean and explain. If
you are saying what is wrong with him saying he hates that kind of game and
it seems he is accusing me of running that kind of game, then the problem
with that him saying that is he jumping to a rather large conclusion. Since
a. I don't
b. He has never seen/played/ or heard about the games I run.
c. It is an insult to me simply based on the fact that he jumped to that
conclusion.
If you are asking what happens and Mr. TK (Force) turns up. Chances are he
wouldn't pound anybody. If you've read my other posts he would probably be
seeking the characters out for help because it was something he couldn't do,
handle, or just was unavailable. If it were to break down into a fight,
then chances are a organized team of PCs could take Force out anyway.
Though I'm not sure why they would do that. If the players are worried in
the beginning about being able to win every battle then there is a problem
already. I announce at the beginning of my campaign that sometimes you HAVE
to run. You don't win every battle, and if you did, why bother rolling the
dice in the first place?
Sparx
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 17:05:37 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: The pet NPC was (Re: Curbing the Power Gamer)
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>At 09:59 PM 9/4/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>I don't know if you bothered reading about my last post about how my "pet"
>>NPC has never been seen by my players, and I'm not about to requote the
>>whole thing here. Go back and read it, if you don't want to, don't, not a
>>big deal for me. I did want to address something else here though. It was
>>stated by a couple of people that the NPCs should not outshine the PCs. If
>>you read my previous post you would find that even my more powerful NPCs
>>never outshine the PCs and in most cases come to the PCs for help. What I
>>want to point out here or rather ask is this. How many of you as GMs let
>>your players start with the most powerful TK, Brick, Energy Projector,
>>etc... in the campaign? I'm talking the most powerful, that is what we were
>>talking about. There is no equal or superior be it PC or NPC. I find it
>>hard to believe that many GMs would allow such a character to exist. There
>>are always better, there are always PCs who are going to try to top it, so
>>instead of bestowing that title to a PC and starting a one-up game with the
>>other players,
>
>why wpuld it do this? why would a psycic compete with an energy projector?
>what, in active point totals?
If you can ask why, then you are blessed with some good players. I don't
know what type of games you play, I don't know what type of players you
have. I know my players and I base my experiences, references, and opinions
from the games I'm involved in. There is no "RIGHT" here. My way could be
completely wrong for your game, your style, or this whole list. I do what
works for me and my gaming group and it does work. I've learned from other
GMs, the player's opinions, and trial-and-error. How would they compete you
ask. Not by competeing a mentalist vs an energy projector, by making
another energy projector to top the last.
>>why not stop it before it starts and say, "You are NOT the
>>most powerful." This doesn't say you can't become the most powerful, it
>>simply states you aren't starting a character that is. Makes sense to me,
>>maybe I'm just odd that way. Talk at you later.
>>
>
>very odd- a beginning pc can still be brimming with power, especially if
they are meant to have had a career before the campaign started. The trick
is to balance points efficiance- the classic 'new mutant' is one with lots
of horsepower, but few skills, ect. Why is this wrong? are we back to the
'points spent on skills equals better roleplayer' fallacy?
No, in fact, I enjoy the fact that some players come to the table with a new
character that has some experience prior to game play. I enjoy seeing the
powerful character even. My statement was don't come to the table thinking
you are the most powerful X because you probably aren't, come to the table
to have fun and role play and be a team player.
Sparx
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 17:08:49 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer)
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>what's wrong with strongest? and how about this- sure you can control the
elements, but not very well yet. . let 'em have the horsepower, just limit
their control.. .
Nothing is wrong with the Strongest if you don't mind giving them that
title. Then you have to make sure you stick to that title as a GM.
Player: I thought you said I was the strongest. :(
GM: You are.
Player: Well, then how come when I was flipping through my book I found
this enemy and he is stronger than me.
GM: I lowered his strength (make mental note to lower strength if ever
confronted.)
Player2: I wanted to be strongest.
It just gets out of hand in my opinion. Why would you give a player a piece
of candy like that for a fight to break out over? I do like you said
though, like giving them the horsepower just not the control over it. YOU
have the POTENTIAL to be the strongest.
Sparx
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 17:18:58 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
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>
>
>At 11:07 AM 9/6/97 +1000, Jones wrote:
>>>Think of it this way, say you were in my game. You were playing the average
>>>character that you designed because I knew you weren't a power gamer.
>
>>how did you know? active point totals? body language? ink blots?
>>most of the logic above hinges on the statement 'because he's a powergamer'-
>>that's not a valid argument. I do not see how you can label someone a
>>power-gamer just because they want a cool power.
>
>I agree here. Some specifics and details would work wonders. If the guy is
>the kind who takes four +1/4 limits on his power frameworks that in no way
>limit the character's powers, then I might agree he's a power gamer. If he
>has absolutely no rationale why he has Armor, Force Field, Telekinesis, Hand
>Attack, Enhanced Vision and Superleap in an elementral control called
>"Superpowers," then he might be a power gamer. (If he was a system veteran
>and not a beginner who misunderstood.) If he tried to use telekinesis in
>non-heroic ways (I have no range modifiers and a big pair of binoculars) I
>might agree he was a power gamer. (All of these examples are from real life.)
Now, I think we might have the same player. THIS is the example I was
trying to give in less words. THIS is the type of players I have had.
If you wanted me to be specific I could have. I've been dropping stats here
and there, but I'm really not thinking about pulling out a whole character
sheet. Don't even know if I still have his characters. I do know he had an
14d6 AP hand to hand attack. This is that 16 year old martial artist. Of
course it was bought in stages and capable of being pushed and this and
that, I overlooked things he knew I would until the fight. My fault there,
but still the fault of the player for taking advantage of the fact. Still
messed up the game for the other players. Got him in the end though, he
killed a normal combatant in front of hundreds of witnesses. Tried to claim
self-defense, but there wasn't any. He scored the first hit a 14d6 AP on a
normal simply because the guy was with the "bad" guy team. He also tried to
claim real life that he didn't know how much damage he would actually do to
the person, this is a veteran we are talking about of at least 3 years if
not more and someone who is quite familiar with the rules enough to bend them.
Sparx
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 19:30:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer)
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On Sat, 6 Sep 1997, Sparx wrote:
> >what's wrong with strongest? and how about this- sure you can control the
> elements, but not very well yet. . let 'em have the horsepower, just limit
> their control.. .
>
> Nothing is wrong with the Strongest if you don't mind giving them that
> title. Then you have to make sure you stick to that title as a GM.
>
> Player: I thought you said I was the strongest. :(
> GM: You are.
> Player: Well, then how come when I was flipping through my book I found
> this enemy and he is stronger than me.
Well, my response to the Player right about know would be to say: "I don't
use these guys in the books. And if I do, I re-write them to fit into my
game anyway."
> GM: I lowered his strength (make mental note to lower strength if ever
> confronted.)
> Player2: I wanted to be strongest.
I see. I think you players have been watching too much Dragonball Z or
something... ^_^
>
> It just gets out of hand in my opinion. Why would you give a player a piece
> of candy like that for a fight to break out over? I do like you said
> though, like giving them the horsepower just not the control over it. YOU
> have the POTENTIAL to be the strongest.
I my old superhero game I did have a PC who was one of the strongest men
in the world. He didn't have any trouble with the knowledge that there
were a few people who had more STR than he did, because his character
certainly never intended to fill that niche. In my current game the PCs
are wel aware that there are several NPCs (two actually) that outclass
them totally in terms of power. This is a cool thing in thier opinion
since the presence of either of these NPCs in a scenario forces them to
think fast and try and come up with a creative solution to the problem
(ie. no shootouts). Works pretty well.
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* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
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Date: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 11:13 AM