Week Ending September 13, 1997
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford)
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was ( Is there a need for SPD?)
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 00:14:11 GMT
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On Sat, 06 Sep 1997 10:52:22 +1000, you wrote:
>
>is there really anything wrong with this? one of my favorite power-concepts is diehard,
> a guy who is virtually unkillable. He's got damage reduction, life support and absorbtion
>feeding to body. So basically he can't be killed. he has normal charicteristic maxima +/- some speed,
> and his max attack is 13d6, but he can't be killed. What's wrong with this?
Nothing at all in my book. You didn't say how much life support he has
but I'll assume the max so he can't be suffocated or gassed, but he
CAN die. It would just take a very strong killing attack or perhaps a
KA AVLD like radiation.
Of course, a BODY drain or transfer could kill him as well, since
those would not trigger his Absorption power.
John Lansford
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Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 07:03:47 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
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Michael Jones wrote:
>>>i have never been talking about perfect heros- i was talking about hero's
>>>who are good at a GIVEN TASK, NOT all tasks.
>>
>>That's what I've been talking about, so why are you arguing with me? Maybe
>>I'm just not clear.
>
>because i don't agree with you!!!!!!!!!!!!
>you used the example of telekinesis which is at best a group of powers,
maybe in an ec.
>
>>>better at what? at everything? so now you have npc's who are better at each
>>>of the players at everything the players can do?
>>
>>What have I been saying that you don't understand me. I've been talking
>>about a powergamer who had a character that could DO everything the rest of
>>the team could do and then some, power wise and skill wise. I've been
>>saying how *I* disapprove of that. I've been saying I have NPCs that are
>>sometimes more powerful than characters but not always.
>
>and your rationale for one of these npc's was that a player said thei pc
said they were the best at something.. .
<snip>
>>I recall saying my NPCs never
>>outshine my PCs
>
>apart from when you specifically design them to do so, as you SAID you did
with the force-tk-guy?
>
Okay, let's go to Sparx's example of Force, a powerful NPC TK. Okay, he has
created a game world for the characters to play in. Let's say it's pretty
darn detailed. Thus, it *probably* took quite a bit of time. As part of
this elaborate game world, he created Force. And Force is defined as a
certain power level.
Now, a PC comes up with a TK. He's pretty good, as written, but the
*Player* says, "My PC is the most powerful TK in the world, so no one is
better, okay?" The GM says, "um, no. There's this NPC *WHO IS ALREADY
ESTABLISHED* in the game world, *WHO HAS ALREADY ENCOUNTERED OTHER PCs* who
is more powerful than the PC you have written. PLUS, I can't guarantee that
he's the best. What if Player 'B' comes up with a more powerful TKer?"
To which the Player says, "But he won't, because I'm the most powerful...
just tell him so. And write out your NPC (who has already had a drastic
effect on the world)."
so... NO.
I think this is what Sparx was saying. A game world takes *A DAMN LOT* of
effort. I know. And I like to keep a *damn* sight of continuity in my
games. So tossing Force wouldn't be an option for myself either.
I hope *someone* gets something from this. I'd like to see a reply each
from Michael Jones and Sparx to this to see what they think... but... heh,
I don't control them. : )
- Jerry
who has just GMed 6 hours of Champions, and has been reading E-mail for the
past hour.
"I'm done, man." "What, you finished your turn?" "No, man. I'm done."
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 07:11:28 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: The pet NPC was (Re: Curbing the Power Gamer)
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At 05:03 PM 9/7/97 +1000, Michael Jones wrote:
>>>>Let's see. It causes tension between players,
>>>>dislike, outright arguements, a breakdown of the game to mechanics, and
ends
>>>>a game and has ended some friendships over petty stuff.
>>>
>>>Now, competition between players does that, being good at something is
>>bound to happen-
>>>we are talking about superhumans here. who causes that(player competition)?
>>does this have to do with the issue at hand? no. It has to do with bad
>>players. Bad players have all sorts of issues, and the idea is to look at
>>them, not limit game concepts so that all they can get their hands on are
>>genre-limited straightjackets.
>>
>>So now, you are calling my players bad? Hey! Only I can do that. It has
>>everything to do with the issue at hand since all I've been talking about
>>since I've started my conversation is my players and my experiences with
them.
>>
>
>your talking about things players do wrong, but acting like it's a problem
with charactr creation. it isn't. .
>
But aren't the Players responsible for character generation? Nowhere in the
entire discussion have I heard Sparx say anything about a problem with the
*game mechanics* of character creation.
If the players are causing problems during character creation because of
their attitudes, then it would be a problem *with the players* _and_ *with
character creation*. Right?
- Jerry
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From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 12:31:09 +1000
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Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
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At 07:53 AM 9/6/97 -0600, you wrote:
>I think you have to use some examples, too, Jones. What do you mean? He
>never has said they all had to bounce bullets, they all had to have power
>defence, etc. I think the point was that they all _SHOULDN'T_ have to have
>those things, but that each one should have some of those abilities.
>
JONES again? okay, that's it- i'm gonna go back to my goofy net-name.
And btw, a lot of gm's have the attitude that balanced pc's should have 'adequate' (i.e. token) defences vs different attack forms, which acts basically as a leech on point totals with no rartionale.
>I am reading this first thing in the morning, I may be slow, can you explain
>that last sentence about the comp. prog and the electronics? It makes no
>sense to my smeary brain.
>
a gm i had once insisted a computer wiz should have eloectronics to repair things.
this was to stop the guy having a higher programming skill than the gm wanted him to, and he got labeled a powergamer when he objected.
>>What it comes down to is that despite all the stuff about power-gamers,
>their >character are actually more realistic- what's more likely, someone
>getting one >power or many? not to metion that the 'many' powers all happen
>to be valid >combat -concepts, while a high-power system often wastes a lot
>of points if >designed properly.
>
>Oh, I beg to differ, unless you mean "interesting" in the sense of the
>Chinese curse. Here's where that guy I mentioned before comes in, Mr. High
>Teek with the Penetra- and Ranged- vision. He had TK at ungodly levels w/o
>range mods, N-ray vision, and telescopic, too. The GM, who was new to this
>guy, if not to the rest of us, didn't smell a rat until the first fight.
>Then this guy tried to hide on a building far away and teek at the bad guys.
>Very "realistic?" no.
actually this is extremly accurate- haven't you ever heard of artilery? this is how a psycic would fight, why would a normal human stand around in squishing distance of a brick?
>Show me a hero who does this who is not a) comic
>relief or b) the team's "uncooperative jerk" ala Talisman from the Justice
>Machine. Our hero didn't want to hear the GM ask that he act more heroic.
>It was in character, he said, for his guy to behave so.
>
it was- if you want heroic behaviour, require that all pc's have it as a psyc lim.
>More annoying for the group, if two supers ever squared off (we were a
>mobile lot and often fought where the fighting fit rather than Hero X vs.
>Villain Y), the Teeker would wait for us to knock down the villain, then
>grab and pound him. No matter what effect or lack of effect it had on the
>villain, he would crow to the other player "Hey, saved your bacon" or "I
>got him for ya" or some similar comment. Now, we had some INTERESTING
>characters in the group (IMO). We had a Texas Ranger who had been abducted
>by aliens and gifted with high-tech analogues of his old equipment, we had
>Primeival Man who reverted to mankind's early origins, we had Grimalkin who
>was a member of a magically-created slave-race to witches. Some of those
>characters (notably the Ranger) had cool powers but real lacks in defense.
>If a big nasty was stomping towards him, we ALL pitched in to help, but none
>of the other _players_ gave Zeke's player a hard time about saving his rear.
>He was another hero, one of us.
>
does this have anything to do with powers? i've seen wimpy ninja-types do this a lot. ..
was it player or pc speaking? honestly?
>Strangely enough, more of our fights started happening indoors, where Bozo
>couldn't reach his TK (he could SEE, of course). He didn't take the option
>of actually joining the fight, he tried buying a big mind link skill so he
>could warn us of each impending blow. (Annoying the heck out of us.)
>
>Jones, can you give us an example of a powermonger character that was more
>"superhero realistic" than the rest of the campaign?
>
>
>
how about the one you just quoted?
i have looked into lots of campaigns and seen a bunch of 'realistic' (weak) characters.
But the point is, could they really fight crime? could they really mix it with heavily-armed criminals? Then you see a player wanting to play an ultra- powerful dude-
bulletproof, fast, brutal, this guy is WAY more likely to suvive the fights, and hence
a more valid superhuman. . . .
Then there's power concept- all the examples you gave were 'engineered' in some way-
designed or evolved with a set of traits- but teek boy? i assume he's a mutant-
remember the old deffinition- like the one magneto used to determine captain universe spidey wasn't a mutant, something like:
"mutants abilities are based around one specific power"
now a mutant can still do a lot, but. . . .
i'v had campaigns like that- it think you'll fing the whole 'has superpowers' idea didn't really suit it- all the others sound much more subtle to me, even though no doubt the eb were flying nontheless. I would suggest that the pc COULD have suited this settting- he could be wierd in his own way, imagine if the other pc's never got to meet him? But this is a matter of character, and setting, not the 'powergamer' archetype.
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 12:42:48 +1000
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From: "Happyelf! (u asked fer it) *eg*" <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers
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At 04:04 PM 9/6/97 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 97-09-05 07:39:30 EDT, rook@sanfran.infinex.com (Brian
>Wong) writes:
>
><< You know; that's a good point. Too many people who GM put themselves
> on this high, undemocratic chair. Once there they ruthlessly beat down any
> discention amoung the ranks. No viewpoint but the GM's becomes valid.
> How did we reach this state when the hobby comes from a country which
> prides itself on it's claim to democratic ideals. Or even in a hobby which
> itself proclaims cooperation over competition.>>
>
>I agree and I disagree at the same time. The GM has to weigh a number of
>different things in order to run a game properly...
>
>A) The Storyline.
>B) The Characters.
>C) The Players.
>
>The GM has to enforce both the genre and the storyline at the same time. If
>a player insists on doing things that takes the character "off on a tangent"
>it's the GM's job to get the players back "on the storyline" in the least
>obtrusive way possible. Flying off on an unrelated plotline can be deadly,
>both to a face to face game and in a message based game. If one character is
>doing it on his or her own, then the rest of the players end up sitting
>around doing nothing and getting bored. If one character (or more)
>character(s) are involved, then the best trick is to somehow change the red
>herring to a different color (much easier to do in message based game). The
>GM also has to keep in mind what he or she is prepared to run and what they
>can not run. If the players go off on such a wild tangent that the GM didn't
>have time to prepare for it, then only disaster can ensue.
>
sorry, but rubbish. Improvisation is the basis of roleplaying, and a good gm won't use this sort of attitude to herd the pc's back on track. That tired old 'other players get bored' thing is obslete- why not let them control npc's? or just switch back and forth?
anyone who's channel-surfed will be able to keep up. ...
There's also the ideal of leading the back conceptually- relating the 'stray plot'
to the larger story, which is a classic plot twist:
"so, this is your cousin clarence? pleased to meet- oh, my god! he bears the mark of flubby!"
>A good segment of roleplaying players like to play characters that are "the
>best at what they do." (I consider myself in the minority as I find
>characters with flaws are much more interesting to play.)
what? so being good at one thing pakes a character flawless? sorry again, but no likely!
i'd say having high horsepower AND other frailties can be very interesting. . .
>Problems usually
>occur when one character is vastly more powerful or experienced than the
>other characters. It's the GM's job to somehow keep the Robins of his gaming
>world as important as the Supermans, when they're PCs of course. This is an
>incredibly hard task to accomplish without pissing off someone.
>
again with the extremes! if all the pc's have equal CP they should be playing between two possible extremes-
high power, little experiance (skills, csl's and sl's) - i.e. gen X mutant types. .
Low power, hight experiance - i.e. martial artists, grizzled old vetrans, mystery men
>Ontop of all this, there will always be players that are more outgoing then
>others. Just like balancing the character's importance in the game, you have
>to balance the importance of the "attention getter" with the "wallflower."
> If you don't, both will end up loosing interest.
>
and this has what to do with power-gaming?
>What players have to come to terms with is "the GM's word is law." This
>works as long as the GM doesn't take the term too seriously. The idea is to
>have fun. The players are participating in a fantasy that's being created in
>the head of the GM. The GM usually has reasons for most decisions. Debating
>each decision isn't what I would call fun.
>
and yet stray plot threads are still tantamount to the apocalypse in your opinion?
Not too seriousley at all. ..
>I've been on both sides of the above situations... When GMs have had falling
>ons with a player in a game and so forth. The only good way to deal with it
>is as quickly as possible. If you don't let it lie, it usually ends up
>escalating into something much worse.
>
>Jason Galterio
>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 21:48:48 -0500 (CDT)
From: vanadium@ix.netcom.com (Carl Gilchrist)
Subject: Re: Vari-multi pools
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One of the things I have done for variable power pools, and that I
require for almost every VPP in my campaign, is the limitation:
based on active points -1/4
what this means is that it does not matter what limitations get placed
on the power for how many points the power takes up in the pool, ie
a 10d6 energy blast will always take up 50 points out of the vpp, there
is no other reason to take limitations on the powers in the vpp,
thereby making the vpp a widescale multipower,
however, most of the characters who have VPPs are magicians and they
also end up taking a limitation on the control cost on their VPP of
variable limitation -1/4 and up,
so these magicians do take limitations on their powers in the VPP
because their control cost says they have to. But the real points of
the power still don't matter for how many powers will fit in the VPP.
Success...
--
Vanadium@ix.netcom.com | "Life is no longer about 'just surviving',
| that's why we have refrigerators."
| -O. Stephens
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 12:53:36 +1000
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From: "Happyelf! (u asked fer it) *eg*" <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
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At 04:53 PM 9/6/97 -0500, you wrote:
<lots of good points>
Another reason. When you have a character that is
>more powerful, say he could take a 20d6 attack and the rest of the team can
>only take a 14d6 attack. Say he also could deal as good as he could take
>and same with the team. All of a sudden, he is either wiping up all the
>villians they normally are equal with OR the team is facing villians that
>only he could handle. Either way, made many of my players feel like sitting
>down and watching him show his stuff.
so what? is that valid- dice of damage? most bricks fit this category, this is what i meant about the gm requiring all the pc's to have the same abilities- same damage, same defences, ect.. .
>
>
>>how? how does MR pg get the points for the skills on top of anything else?
>
>Simple, Mr. PG knows how to get point breaks. Knows where to throw various
>limitations, and knows how to bend the rules enough that where everyone else
>weighs in around 300 points, maybe up to 350 active. He is coming in around
>400 - 500 active points. Loved the personal unbreakable focus he did.
>
>>
>>>This is the point where I as the GM am to say NO. So Mr. Power Gamer goes
>>>back home and the next week comes back with another character. This time he
>>>only has familiarities in the skills and his TK is even more powerful
>>>because he had the points to do it. I say NO again, he scratches out some
>>>stuff and adds the points to his TK. Now I say NO to the TK, he goes back
>>>home. Meanwhile, the rest of my players are frustrated playing with him and
>>>frustrated wasting game time because this guy is a power gamer.
>>
>>so if somebody hadn't used the term 'power gamer' evberybody would wait
>patiently?
>
>No, they would still get pretty frustrated, and the term power gamer was
>never actually spoken at the time, though everyone knew from playing with
>him. By the way there was more than one. Just giving an example.
>
>>>If I would
>>>have stopped it and said, "Ok, give me your character sheet, I'll adapt him
>>>to the right level for next game." The trouble will be done and over with.
>>>He might not be happy, but the majority of the players will be including
>>>myself. I will state that this is not an exaggeration. I have had this
>>>happen on more than one occasion (way to many than I can say). Simply
>>>asking the player not to play does not work since he is friends with half
>>>the group and they want him there, just not his characters. I have had more
>>>than one player do it. I try to let players design there own characters and
>>>give them that freedom, but there comes a point where I pull the plug on it.
>>> Ok, so I might have rambled on a bit here. My point is, exactly. Jean
>>>Grey can be the most powerful TK and the PC can not unless of course I OK
>>>it. If a player sits down and gives me an origin saying I'm the most
>>>powerful TK on the planet, without ever telling me before hand then we have
>>>to talk. Or of course, I just prove him wrong :)
>>>
>>>Sparx
>>>
>>>
>>
>>most of the logic above hinges on the statement 'because he's a powergamer'-
>>that's not a valid argument. I do not see how you can label someone a
>power-gamer
>>just because they want a cool power.
>
>Well, it is a valid arguement, considering the name of the posts are
>"Curbing the Power Gamer" you would think that the Curbing the Power Gamer
>would be the subject of conversation. Let me see if I do understand you
>here though. You are saying if someone wanted a cool power and they weren't
>a power gamer would I allow it? Yes, I would. If someone that I have
>played with and found to be a good player came to me and asked to be the
>most powerful TK I would probably ok it, letting them know that it is
>possible the character will be removed it a problem arises. Or what they
>think is the most powerful may turn out to be wrong. Someone here even
>pointed out that they would only allow 80 Str making many villians more
>powerful than them.
>
> I have played both ends of the spectrum, and
>>so called 'power gamers' tend to build more interesting pc's- you say above
>that
>>power gamers cover the other pc's skill, but isn't that what 'balanced'
>pc's are about?
>
>No, see my definition above. I'm not sure what you are asking here. Is it
>possible for a player to have a balanced character. Sure. Is it possible
>that a kid with martial arts can also be a computer programmer, lion
>trainer, professional burglar, and scientist by the age of 16? Probably
>not, ecspecially if he or she is just doing it so he or she can be better
>than the computer programmer, professional burglar and scientist on the team
>already.
>
>>It seems 'balanced' is defined as an entire team of heros, all who can
>bounce bullets, have mental and power defence, plus all having 'useful
>noncombat skills' - i.e.
>
>That's not what I said. I currently am running a game where each character
>has strong points and weak points and very few overlap each other. The team
>needs each other to be balanced. Very seldom do you find one individual who
>can do it all.
>
>>skills to go with whatever cliche the group endorses- " if your a master of
>disguise you should have acting' is one, another is 'you should take points
>out of computer programming and buy electronics' is another.
>>
>
>True enough, skills should compliment each other. It doesn't make sense
>when you just have every skill on the list, just to have them. There are
>exceptions of course, but for the average hero?
>
>>What it comes down to is that despite all the stuff about power-gamers,
>their character are actually more realistic- what's more likely, someone
>getting one power or many?
>
>More realistic? I don't think so. There is a difference in being balanced
>and using mechanics to be superior to all other players on the team. Sure
>that would be balanced if you helped each and every player make a similiar
>character, but if you play in a world where everyone has one or two powers,
>you know this, and you come in with 10 or 12 powers just to rival them how
>do you think they'll feel?
>
>Sparx
>
>
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 12:56:46 +1000
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From: "Happyelf! (u asked fer it) *eg*" <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
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At 04:59 PM 9/6/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Guy
>>>
>>>Woah there, I think you have me mistaken for someone else. What I am saying
>>>is that the NPC exists as a balance and a reference point for me and the
>>>players. Now, let's see, if I were to ask any of my players to name TK NPC
>>>or even the sex of this character, they wouldn't be able to. Why? Because
>>>they've never met him before. I don't run many NPC characters. They exist,
>>>because I run a game where other heroes are known to exist. They also exist
>>>so Mr. Power Gamer doesn't come in and say I'm the most powerful hero on the
>>>planet simply because he is the best of the PCs. No, he isn't there are
>>>NPCs he has to take in account too. And being a super hero doesn't give you
>>>access to the Super Hero Club where you know each and every hero.
>>>
>>
>>what the hell is wrong with him saying tha? are you saying if someone says
>that, then mr mets-TK turns up and stomps him? i really hope i've
>misunderstood. . .
>>and i really hope i'm not making points people have already made and had
>replied to later on (80 posts and counting) *lol*
>
>I really don't mean to misunderstand you here, but it is kind of choppy,
>could you reword this. I'll answer what I think you mean and explain. If
>you are saying what is wrong with him saying he hates that kind of game and
>it seems he is accusing me of running that kind of game, then the problem
>with that him saying that is he jumping to a rather large conclusion. Since
>
>a. I don't
>b. He has never seen/played/ or heard about the games I run.
>c. It is an insult to me simply based on the fact that he jumped to that
>conclusion.
>
i'm talking about the pc saying he's top of the heap. are you saying this force guy
would turn up and pound him for saying it? what else could you mean?
>If you are asking what happens and Mr. TK (Force) turns up. Chances are he
>wouldn't pound anybody. If you've read my other posts he would probably be
>seeking the characters out for help because it was something he couldn't do,
>handle, or just was unavailable. If it were to break down into a fight,
>then chances are a organized team of PCs could take Force out anyway.
>Though I'm not sure why they would do that. If the players are worried in
>the beginning about being able to win every battle then there is a problem
>already. I announce at the beginning of my campaign that sometimes you HAVE
>to run. You don't win every battle, and if you did, why bother rolling the
>dice in the first place?
>
>Sparx
>
>
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Oil Slick
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Date: 06 Sep 1997 22:57:56 -0400
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>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes:
q> If you want a pure super-slick surface, try an Entangle with
q> appropriate limitations and advantages.
The problem with using Entangle for this is that a high Strength will get
one out of it. No advantage changes this aspect of Entangle.
Draining/Suppressing/Dispelling Dexterity does not work either because
simply adjusting someone's DEX does not force him to make a Dexterity roll
as normally required for attempting to traverse such a surface.
That is why I say to use Change Environment, which also happens to be the
one power in the book that can be used to "force" characters to make
characteristic rolls. Change Environment: "fog" or "heavy rain" may
require one to make periodic sight perception roll to navigate.
And if a mugger is using the fog for cover, and his target fails his
perception roll -- a roll that he may not have needed in clear weather --
does the target still have his DCV reduced against the mugger? I say,
"yes," and I think most will agree.
And if so, then why would not Change Environment: "slippery surface" have a
similar effect, requiring a Dexterity roll (or simply having the Acrobatics
skill) instead of perception?
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Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 13:02:59 +1000
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From: "Happyelf! (u asked fer it) *eg*" <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: The pet NPC was (Re: Curbing the Power Gamer)
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At 05:05 PM 9/6/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>why wpuld it do this? why would a psycic compete with an energy projector?
>>what, in active point totals?
>
>If you can ask why, then you are blessed with some good players. I don't
>know what type of games you play, I don't know what type of players you
>have. I know my players and I base my experiences, references, and opinions
>from the games I'm involved in. There is no "RIGHT" here. My way could be
>completely wrong for your game, your style, or this whole list. I do what
>works for me and my gaming group and it does work. I've learned from other
>GMs, the player's opinions, and trial-and-error. How would they compete you
>ask. Not by competeing a mentalist vs an energy projector, by making
>another energy projector to top the last.
>
>
cop out, cop out, cop out!
>>why not stop it before it starts and say, "You are NOT the
>>>most powerful." This doesn't say you can't become the most powerful, it
>>>simply states you aren't starting a character that is. Makes sense to me,
>>>maybe I'm just odd that way. Talk at you later.
>>>
>>
>>very odd- a beginning pc can still be brimming with power, especially if
>they are meant to have had a career before the campaign started. The trick
>is to balance points efficiance- the classic 'new mutant' is one with lots
>of horsepower, but few skills, ect. Why is this wrong? are we back to the
>'points spent on skills equals better roleplayer' fallacy?
>
>No, in fact, I enjoy the fact that some players come to the table with a new
>character that has some experience prior to game play. I enjoy seeing the
>powerful character even. My statement was don't come to the table thinking
>you are the most powerful X because you probably aren't, come to the table
>to have fun and role play and be a team player.
>
>Sparx
>
>
what's wrong with thinkin that? IT'S A GAME! look, sorry, but this is sounding a lot like a compeditive gm who want's the pc's to feel inferior to his creations. There is NO reason that feeling like yer pc is tough is EVER going to cause problems in itself- if anything, you may be adopting a compeditive attitude just as much as they are.
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Telekinesis
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>>>>> "WGG" == William G Geiger <willggeiger@juno.com> writes:
WGG> Yes, base TK is Visible, vs. OCV/DCV. The biggest problem I have with
WGG> TK Based on ECV is that I'm not sure you can affect non-sentient
WGG> targets with it.
TK is basically Strength that can be used at range. All that BoECV will do
is shift from using Dexterity to Ego for offensive CV. TK with BoECV still
has its normal Strength rating, and that can (only!) affect physical
things.
WGG> If you plan on making a character with an EGO higher than his DEX,
WGG> consider buying extra DEX, for TK CV only (-1) [my own estimate,
WGG> considering you get no adds to SPD, DCV, other OCVs, initiative,
WGG> etc.].
Cheaper to buy a few combat skill levels with TK, if you absolutely must
have the same OCV.
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Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 13:05:51 +1000
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From: "Happyelf! (u asked fer it) *eg*" <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer)
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At 05:08 PM 9/6/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>what's wrong with strongest? and how about this- sure you can control the
>elements, but not very well yet. . let 'em have the horsepower, just limit
>their control.. .
>
>Nothing is wrong with the Strongest if you don't mind giving them that
>title. Then you have to make sure you stick to that title as a GM.
>
>Player: I thought you said I was the strongest. :(
>GM: You are.
>Player: Well, then how come when I was flipping through my book I found
>this enemy and he is stronger than me.
>GM: I lowered his strength (make mental note to lower strength if ever
>confronted.)
>Player2: I wanted to be strongest.
>
yeah, THAT's what'd happen. . . .. any average player would take it as a challenge-
i'm not talkiing about the GM saying to the player 'your pc is the best X', i'm talking about that being a general idea in the campaign- maybe he's only called the strongest 'cause he's got good pr?
>It just gets out of hand in my opinion. Why would you give a player a piece
>of candy like that for a fight to break out over? I do like you said
>though, like giving them the horsepower just not the control over it. YOU
>have the POTENTIAL to be the strongest.
>
>Sparx
>
>
candy? what, you'd rather keep it all for yourself?
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 13:09:54 +1000
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From: "Happyelf! (u asked fer it) *eg*" <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer)
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At 07:30 PM 9/6/97 -0400, you wrote:
>I my old superhero game I did have a PC who was one of the strongest men
>in the world. He didn't have any trouble with the knowledge that there
>were a few people who had more STR than he did, because his character
>certainly never intended to fill that niche. In my current game the PCs
>are wel aware that there are several NPCs (two actually) that outclass
>them totally in terms of power. This is a cool thing in thier opinion
>since the presence of either of these NPCs in a scenario forces them to
>think fast and try and come up with a creative solution to the problem
>(ie. no shootouts). Works pretty well.
>
i'm not talking about 'total power', i'm talking aobut 'being best at X'. . .
>***************************************************************************
>* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
>* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
>* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
>* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
>***************************************************************************
>
>
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 13:34:24 +1000
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From: Happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers
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At 11:09 PM 9/6/97 +0600, you wrote:
>>sorry, but rubbish. Improvisation is the basis of roleplaying, and a good
>gm won't use this sort of attitude to herd the pc's back on track. That
>tired old 'other players get bored' thing is obslete- why not let them
>control npc's? or just switch back and forth?
>>anyone who's channel-surfed will be able to keep up. ...
>>There's also the ideal of leading the back conceptually- relating the
>'stray plot'
>>to the larger story, which is a classic plot twist:
>
>Well, I have personally had more luck than some with the "channel-surfing"
>in the game. The last group I started, they met in groups of two, and I
>alternated between three different pairs until they all met in the center
>(of the plot and, incidentally, a shopping mall).
>But I know some people's experiences ain't so hoopy. Some of mine haven't
>been. Wandering attention spans, sneaking off to get a smoke, look in the
>fridge (ignore the game, is what I mean)...
>
so it's a talent to be aquired- but does that really preclude the freedom such a split entails?
>>"so, this is your cousin clarence? pleased to meet- oh, my god! he bears
>the mark of flubby!"
>
>Incidentally... Don't look now, Jones, but... YOU bear the mark of flubby!
>: )
>
we all bear the mark of flubby, my son, the pc's in that example were aliens *lol*
>>>A good segment of roleplaying players like to play characters that are "the
>>>best at what they do." (I consider myself in the minority as I find
>>>characters with flaws are much more interesting to play.)
>>
>>what? so being good at one thing pakes a character flawless? sorry again,
>but no likely!
>>i'd say having high horsepower AND other frailties can be very interesting. . .
>>
>
>Don't think that's what he's saying. I think he means that most peoply tend
>to stratify characters to those two extremes. Obviously, you don't. I,
>too, might enjoy playing a *very* eccentric genius... That would fit both
>o' those types.
>
but how can you have an extremly powerful character with no flaws? no disadvantages? no limitations? where'd he get the points- galactus?????
>>>Problems usually
>>>occur when one character is vastly more powerful or experienced than the
>>>other characters. It's the GM's job to somehow keep the Robins of his gaming
>>>world as important as the Supermans, when they're PCs of course. This is an
>>>incredibly hard task to accomplish without pissing off someone.
>>>
>>
>>again with the extremes! if all the pc's have equal CP they should be
>playing between two possible extremes-
>>high power, little experiance (skills, csl's and sl's) - i.e. gen X mutant
>types. .
>>Low power, hight experiance - i.e. martial artists, grizzled old vetrans,
>mystery men
>>
>
>Some players I know, when they started out, were scared off Disadvantages.
>The old argument of "But those would Disadvantage me!" : ) So, they were
>built on less points. Also, players more experienced with the system can
>eke *many* more effective points out of their characters than, say, someone
>who won't take *any* Limitations on their Powers, or who doesn't know where
>the Characteristic point breaks are.
>
the trick is to limit anal character creation behaviour. If you make sure the pc's are not ultra-efficient, or at least everybody is on the same level, most powergamer problems fall bu the wayside
>>>Ontop of all this, there will always be players that are more outgoing then
>>>others. Just like balancing the character's importance in the game, you have
>>>to balance the importance of the "attention getter" with the "wallflower."
>>> If you don't, both will end up loosing interest.
>>>
>>
>>and this has what to do with power-gaming?
>>
>Here's where I have the biggest problem with your comments. This isn't
>(neccessarily) about Power-Gaming. I don't believe the previous poster
>brought it up at all, really. He was speaking more of playing style than
>character creation. Hence, this isn't the thread entitled "Curbing the
>Power Gamer."
>
><snipped the end>
>
>- Jerry
>
>
the rationale for this disgussion is based around the idea of evil power-players destroying nice happy roleplay groups. This is a powerful image, if a bit far-fetched.The reason i commented on that bit is that i considered it to be kinda a bit obvious- the problem is i saw it as being phrased in suppoer of the previous points- "just like balancing the characters importance" -
in fact these two points are completly seperate, i was merely pointing this out.
From: Legionair@aol.com
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 23:56:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers
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In a message dated 97-09-06 22:46:03 EDT, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
<<sorry, but rubbish. Improvisation is the basis of roleplaying, and a good
gm won't use this sort of attitude to herd the pc's back on track. That tired
old 'other players get bored' thing is obslete- why not let them control
npc's? or just switch back and forth? anyone who's channel-surfed will be
able to keep up. ... There's also the ideal of leading the back
conceptually- relating the 'stray plot' to the larger story, which is a
classic plot twist:>>
I'm trying real hard not to take offense at your reply, but the tone of it
makes it incredibly hard, just for your information.
First, improvisition of a storyline is not what I was referring to.
Improvisition of an entire situation was what I meant. If the GM is not
prepared for the circumstances then it's really hard to deal with the various
plot threads. For instance, if the characters should suddenly decide to raid
a police station, out of the blue, for no reason that GM would have expected.
All of a sudden the GM might have to come up with a half dozen somewhat
important NPCs and a dozen or so non-important NPCs. What I said was the GM
should remember what he or she is prepared for and what he or she is not
ready for.
"That tired old other players get bored thing is obsolete." is really
rubbish. Evidently you haven't played in a message based game that had a
long, undue pause for book keeping or rules lawyering.
I also place more importance on the general plot structure than to shuffle
players around willy-nilly.
Channel suffering is not a term I like to use to describe my games, whether
I'm running or playing them. I consider my games more of a storyline rather
than an MTV montage.
<<what? so being good at one thing pakes a character flawless? sorry again,
but no likely! i'd say having high horsepower AND other frailties can be
very interesting. . .>>
Nevermind on this topic line. You either didn't read what I originally
posted or misunderstood it.
<<again with the extremes! if all the pc's have equal CP they should be
playing between two possible extremes- high power, little experiance (skills,
csl's and sl's) - i.e. gen X mutant types. . Low power, hight experiance -
i.e. martial artists, grizzled old vetrans, mystery men>>
Again, I might be in the minority, but I feel that a player's character
concept is more important than how many points were used. If there is a
character a player wants to play, that happens to be well balanced, then I
could not care less whether the player used one hundred points or one
thousand.
That being the case, not all of the character's in my games can be conviently
slotted like that. Diversity is what keeps the game interesting.
<<and this has what to do with power-gaming?>>
Aboslutely nothing, should it?
Jason Galterio
From: Legionair@aol.com
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 00:10:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers
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In a message dated 97-09-06 23:16:34 EDT, jdriscol@vt.edu writes:
<<Well, I have personally had more luck than some with the "channel-surfing"
in the game. The last group I started, they met in groups of two, and I
alternated between three different pairs until they all met in the center
(of the plot and, incidentally, a shopping mall).
But I know some people's experiences ain't so hoopy. Some of mine haven't
been. Wandering attention spans, sneaking off to get a smoke, look in the
fridge (ignore the game, is what I mean)...>>
Again, I don't feel that "channel-surfing" should be the measuring stick for
describing a game. I just feel that inaction can always be deadly, in any
game. People's attenion wanders quickly when things are going on that aren't
directly involved with the game at hand.
That doesn't mean that having a solo plot thread is deadly... Just that
spending twenty minutes arguing over the verbage used for a particular
passage in the rulebook is deadly.
<<Don't think that's what he's saying. I think he means that most peoply
tend
to stratify characters to those two extremes. Obviously, you don't. I,
too, might enjoy playing a *very* eccentric genius... That would fit both
o' those types.>>
The previous reading of my opinion was not what I meant. When people sit
down to play a Champions game, for instance, most of the time they have a
character concept in mind...
If they want to play a nighttime vigilante, then they have to be as good as
Batman. If they're playing a speedster, they have to run faster than light
and be able to dodge raindrops. They don't want to play characters that have
any odd character flaws.
I'm not saying that *everyone* is like this, but you see it often enough.
"But, in the comics, Batman can knock guns out of people's hands easily."
and "Spiderman dodges machinegun fire all the time."
<<Some players I know, when they started out, were scared off Disadvantages.
The old argument of "But those would Disadvantage me!" : ) So, they were
built on less points. Also, players more experienced with the system can
eke *many* more effective points out of their characters than, say, someone
who won't take *any* Limitations on their Powers, or who doesn't know where
the Characteristic point breaks are.>>
Exactly the point I was trying to make.
<<Here's where I have the biggest problem with your comments. This isn't
(neccessarily) about Power-Gaming. I don't believe the previous poster
brought it up at all, really. He was speaking more of playing style than
character creation. Hence, this isn't the thread entitled "Curbing the
Power Gamer.">>
No, I didn't. I actually didn't find a need to reply to those threads.
Thanks.
Jason Galterio
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 14:33:52 +1000
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From: Happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers
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At 11:56 PM 9/6/97 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 97-09-06 22:46:03 EDT, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
>
><<sorry, but rubbish. Improvisation is the basis of roleplaying, and a good
>gm won't use this sort of attitude to herd the pc's back on track. That tired
>old 'other players get bored' thing is obslete- why not let them control
>npc's? or just switch back and forth? anyone who's channel-surfed will be
>able to keep up. ... There's also the ideal of leading the back
>conceptually- relating the 'stray plot' to the larger story, which is a
>classic plot twist:>>
>
>I'm trying real hard not to take offense at your reply, but the tone of it
>makes it incredibly hard, just for your information.
>
i'm amazed you can hear my voice through email at all.
>First, improvisition of a storyline is not what I was referring to.
> Improvisition of an entire situation was what I meant. If the GM is not
>prepared for the circumstances then it's really hard to deal with the various
>plot threads. For instance, if the characters should suddenly decide to raid
>a police station, out of the blue, for no reason that GM would have expected.
> All of a sudden the GM might have to come up with a half dozen somewhat
>important NPCs and a dozen or so non-important NPCs. What I said was the GM
>should remember what he or she is prepared for and what he or she is not
>ready for.
>
I was talking about improvising situations.
All these things can be done on the fly- and you should have a cop drawn up anyway.
No amount of unpreparedness is an excuse for hobbling the players freedom. That's what roleplaying is about, not just a captive audience for the gm's plots.
>"That tired old other players get bored thing is obsolete." is really
>rubbish. Evidently you haven't played in a message based game that had a
>long, undue pause for book keeping or rules lawyering.
>
message based? like bluebooking or what? i play irc constantly- all you have to do is go back and forth- rules layering has nothing to do with spliting the party or any of that, and as for book keeping? can't it wait? And buy the way, useing a particular interface or method with a given set of weaknesses to argue against a concept in general is pointless- i play a game by email, where we avoid normal combat: does that mean normal combat is obselete for all games? Hence, such a point is obselete in general, it's probably obselete in all areas if you take advantage of the interface.
>I also place more importance on the general plot structure than to shuffle
>players around willy-nilly.
>
this statement doesn't really make much sence- general plot structure? if player a wants to do X while the rest of the group goes of somewhere else than, THAT's the plot, NOT
whatever you had planned- otherwise how do the players contribute? do they have to clear everything throught you before the game?
>Channel suffering is not a term I like to use to describe my games, whether
>I'm running or playing them. I consider my games more of a storyline rather
>than an MTV montage.
>
right- YOU'RE storyline, not the players. And every other type of storytelling in existance has scene changes, asides, switches of perspective and so forth- why can't roleplaying? I'm not talking a montage here, just something simmilar to pretty much every story ever written.
><<what? so being good at one thing pakes a character flawless? sorry again,
>but no likely! i'd say having high horsepower AND other frailties can be
>very interesting. . .>>
>
>Nevermind on this topic line. You either didn't read what I originally
>posted or misunderstood it.
>
how did i misunderstand? i believe the error was yours. . .
><<again with the extremes! if all the pc's have equal CP they should be
>playing between two possible extremes- high power, little experiance (skills,
>csl's and sl's) - i.e. gen X mutant types. . Low power, hight experiance -
>i.e. martial artists, grizzled old vetrans, mystery men>>
>
>Again, I might be in the minority, but I feel that a player's character
>concept is more important than how many points were used. If there is a
>character a player wants to play, that happens to be well balanced, then I
>could not care less whether the player used one hundred points or one
>thousand.
>
>That being the case, not all of the character's in my games can be conviently
>slotted like that. Diversity is what keeps the game interesting.
>
let me get this straight- i was responding to someone going on about 'superman and robin' and I'M the one putting people in slots? And besides i did say 'IF', and it was a clearly valid generalisation to make viv-a-vis character creation concepts. Frankly, you said this to disprove my point, and i'd be very suprised if you actually play the game this way, especially considering you don't handle improvisation at all. Anyone can see that i am FOR diversity, in a far more constructive sence than someone hypothesising about thousand point starting pc's.
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 14:44:14 +1000
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From: Happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers
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X-UID: 180
At 12:10 AM 9/7/97 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 97-09-06 23:16:34 EDT, jdriscol@vt.edu writes:
>
><<Well, I have personally had more luck than some with the "channel-surfing"
> in the game. The last group I started, they met in groups of two, and I
> alternated between three different pairs until they all met in the center
> (of the plot and, incidentally, a shopping mall).
> But I know some people's experiences ain't so hoopy. Some of mine haven't
> been. Wandering attention spans, sneaking off to get a smoke, look in the
> fridge (ignore the game, is what I mean)...>>
>
>Again, I don't feel that "channel-surfing" should be the measuring stick for
>describing a game. I just feel that inaction can always be deadly, in any
>game. People's attenion wanders quickly when things are going on that aren't
>directly involved with the game at hand.
>
like i sadi- let them control npc's. .
>That doesn't mean that having a solo plot thread is deadly... Just that
>spending twenty minutes arguing over the verbage used for a particular
>passage in the rulebook is deadly.
>
what has this got to do with improvising plot, or splitting the party? and don't say 'nothing- so what' again, ok?
><<Don't think that's what he's saying. I think he means that most peoply
>tend
> to stratify characters to those two extremes. Obviously, you don't. I,
> too, might enjoy playing a *very* eccentric genius... That would fit both
> o' those types.>>
>
>The previous reading of my opinion was not what I meant. When people sit
>down to play a Champions game, for instance, most of the time they have a
>character concept in mind...
>
>If they want to play a nighttime vigilante, then they have to be as good as
>Batman. If they're playing a speedster, they have to run faster than light
>and be able to dodge raindrops. They don't want to play characters that have
>any odd character flaws.
>
why is that so? just because someone's fast, doesn't mean they don't have flaws! have you been readibng the flash?
>I'm not saying that *everyone* is like this, but you see it often enough.
> "But, in the comics, Batman can knock guns out of people's hands easily."
>and "Spiderman dodges machinegun fire all the time."
>
this is a matter of point power- once again, it has noting to do with a flawless character, it's just a case of someone wanting to be good at A_GIVEN_SINGLE_TASK!
is this unnaceptable? this is a superheroic roleplaying game! the system is called 'HERO', not 'LOSER!'
people have a right to be to be good at SOMETHING!
><<Some players I know, when they started out, were scared off Disadvantages.
> The old argument of "But those would Disadvantage me!" : ) So, they were
> built on less points. Also, players more experienced with the system can
> eke *many* more effective points out of their characters than, say, someone
> who won't take *any* Limitations on their Powers, or who doesn't know where
> the Characteristic point breaks are.>>
>
>Exactly the point I was trying to make.
>
well why did you say all that stuff about flaws? this isn't a csae of the players doing anything- it's a case of the gm not controlling how the group uses power modifiers.
><<Here's where I have the biggest problem with your comments. This isn't
> (neccessarily) about Power-Gaming. I don't believe the previous poster
> brought it up at all, really. He was speaking more of playing style than
> character creation. Hence, this isn't the thread entitled "Curbing the
> Power Gamer.">>
>
>No, I didn't. I actually didn't find a need to reply to those threads.
> Thanks.
>
>Jason Galterio
>
From: Legionair@aol.com
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 00:56:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers
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In a message dated 97-09-07 00:53:56 EDT, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au writes:
<< what has this got to do with improvising plot, or splitting the party? and
don't say 'nothing- so what' again, ok? >>
Nothing - So what.
Actually, I refuse to get involved in a flame war with you, so I'm actually
just going to forget that I ever got involved in this thread. Thanks.
Jason
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 00:07:15 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer)
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>I my old superhero game I did have a PC who was one of the strongest men
>in the world. He didn't have any trouble with the knowledge that there
>were a few people who had more STR than he did, because his character
>certainly never intended to fill that niche. In my current game the PCs
>are wel aware that there are several NPCs (two actually) that outclass
>them totally in terms of power. This is a cool thing in thier opinion
>since the presence of either of these NPCs in a scenario forces them to
>think fast and try and come up with a creative solution to the problem
>(ie. no shootouts). Works pretty well.
My point exactly. Works out well in my games too. Take it easy and talk at
you later.
Sparx
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 15:14:58 +1000
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From: Happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers
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i trie this private, then it was reposted public, so here goes. ..
>At 12:56 AM 9/7/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>In a message dated 97-09-07 00:53:56 EDT, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au writes:
>>
>><< what has this got to do with improvising plot, or splitting the party? and
>>don't say 'nothing- so what' again, ok? >>
>>
>>Nothing - So what.
>>
so you used it as a support of your argument despite it clearly being irrelevant!
>>Actually, I refuse to get involved in a flame war with you, so I'm actually
>>just going to forget that I ever got involved in this thread. Thanks.
>>
>>
>
>
>Please keep your hystreonics to yourself. I'm not interested in people who
>make a severly invalid point, then get insulted, then make a point apparently in support of an issue which it cannot possibly support, then label me and antagonist because i point this out. What you call flaming i call disagreement, i'm terribly sorry i didn't realise this list was designed for mutual admiration purposes only.
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 00:18:03 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
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>At 04:53 PM 9/6/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
><lots of good points>
>
> Another reason. When you have a character that is
>>more powerful, say he could take a 20d6 attack and the rest of the team can
>>only take a 14d6 attack. Say he also could deal as good as he could take
>>and same with the team. All of a sudden, he is either wiping up all the
>>villians they normally are equal with OR the team is facing villians that
>>only he could handle. Either way, made many of my players feel like sitting
>>down and watching him show his stuff.
>
>so what? is that valid- dice of damage? most bricks fit this category, this
is what i meant about the gm requiring all the pc's to have the same
abilities- same damage, same defences, ect.. .
Is this valid damage? That depends on the campaign I would suppose. My
point is fine, you are saying this fits most brick classes which it does,
but when this brick can out fight (OCV/DCV)a martial artists, out think a
scientist, and out wit a burglar along with being more powerful than the
rest of the team, he or she has crossed a line somewhere. You are telling
me that you don't like GMs requiring all players to have the same damage,
same defenses, etc...but now it comes down to the players making the rule
for themselves they all have to have the same damage, defenses, and skills
to compete with each other and survive the "gunslingers" that come looking
for the power house. Soon it comes to a game of who has the most def. who
can sling the most power, who is best at what skill? It grows stagnant when
the burglar can't say she is the best at burglaring because a 16 year old
kid is better. It grows stagnant when a technological character can't build
power armor any better than that same 16 year old kid. Is my point coming
across at all here. There should be no perfect hero. If you want it all
wrapped up in one, play solo adventures. Or just write books. If you want
to play with other players, you have to accept you are not everything and
give someone even an NPC the chance to be a little better than you.
Take it easy and talk at you later.
Sparx
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 00:25:32 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
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>i'm talking about the pc saying he's top of the heap. are you saying this
force guy
>would turn up and pound him for saying it? what else could you mean?
Spoken like, well, I don't like what. Without trying to be insulting here,
and please don't take it as such. It sounds like you are in the game for
the battle of it all. Fine, great, I love a good fight as well as anyone
else but there is more to role playing than fighting. Why would Force turn
up to pound someone else who claims the title? As I could explain if you
were in my campaign and actually met Force, he wouldn't care if you claimed
it. Go ahead. Let's switch it though and says he does care, but he is
still Force the Hero, he would probably come to you and TALK it out with
you. Now, let's say he is Force the Villian, he would probably come to you
and attack, if he is the most powerful TK NPC and you are 2nd best, this
could still be an equal fight, but let's say you're 34th best. Now instead
of fighting, it is time to use your brains and role play the situation out,
talk it over with him, ambush him, ask your team for help, etc.. etc... but
if your pride is too much and you think you want to take him on knowing that
he may be more powerful than you, all the best to you. What else could I
mean? I still don't know what else you are looking for. When I say you
can't claim you are the most powerful X, I am not talking in campaign terms.
If Bob the Hero wants to strut around the campaign world claiming to be god
all day, he could, probably without much trouble. If Bob the player comes
to me and claims, I've made the most powerful X, don't have any NPCs more
powerful, don't let any other players be more powerful, that is where I draw
the line. That is what I am talking about. Take it easy and talk at you later.
Sparx
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 15:34:16 +1000
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From: Happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
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At 12:18 AM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>At 04:53 PM 9/6/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>><lots of good points>
>>
>> Another reason. When you have a character that is
>>>more powerful, say he could take a 20d6 attack and the rest of the team can
>>>only take a 14d6 attack. Say he also could deal as good as he could take
>>>and same with the team. All of a sudden, he is either wiping up all the
>>>villians they normally are equal with OR the team is facing villians that
>>>only he could handle. Either way, made many of my players feel like sitting
>>>down and watching him show his stuff.
>>
>>so what? is that valid- dice of damage? most bricks fit this category, this
>is what i meant about the gm requiring all the pc's to have the same
>abilities- same damage, same defences, ect.. .
>
>Is this valid damage? That depends on the campaign I would suppose. My
>point is fine, you are saying this fits most brick classes which it does,
>but when this brick can out fight (OCV/DCV)a martial artists, out think a
>scientist, and out wit a burglar along with being more powerful than the
>rest of the team, he or she has crossed a line somewhere.
this is valid, and i was talking aobut differences between characters, not maximums.
>You are telling
>me that you don't like GMs requiring all players to have the same damage,
>same defenses, etc...but now it comes down to the players making the rule
>for themselves they all have to have the same damage, defenses, and skills
>to compete with each other and survive the "gunslingers" that come looking
>for the power house.
why are they competing? and whoose sending thegunslingers? the gm's evil twin skippy?
>Soon it comes to a game of who has the most def. who
>can sling the most power, who is best at what skill? It grows stagnant when
>the burglar can't say she is the best at burglaring because a 16 year old
>kid is better. It grows stagnant when a technological character can't build
>power armor any better than that same 16 year old kid. Is my point coming
>across at all here. There should be no perfect hero.
i have never been talking about perfect heros- i was talking about hero's who are good at a GIVEN TASK, NOT all tasks.
>If you want it all
>wrapped up in one, play solo adventures. Or just write books. If you want
>to play with other players, you have to accept you are not everything and
>give someone even an NPC the chance to be a little better than you.
>
better at what? at everything? so now you have npc's who are better at each of the players at everything the players can do?
>Take it easy and talk at you later.
>
>Sparx
>
>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 00:34:29 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: The pet NPC was (Re: Curbing the Power Gamer)
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>At 05:05 PM 9/6/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>>why wpuld it do this? why would a psycic compete with an energy projector?
>>>what, in active point totals?
>>
>>If you can ask why, then you are blessed with some good players. I don't
>>know what type of games you play, I don't know what type of players you
>>have. I know my players and I base my experiences, references, and opinions
>>from the games I'm involved in. There is no "RIGHT" here. My way could be
>>completely wrong for your game, your style, or this whole list. I do what
>>works for me and my gaming group and it does work. I've learned from other
>>GMs, the player's opinions, and trial-and-error. How would they compete you
>>ask. Not by competeing a mentalist vs an energy projector, by making
>>another energy projector to top the last.
>>
>>
>
> cop out, cop out, cop out!
I fail to see where I'm copping out. I have given you my view points. I
have told you where they are coming from. I have answered your questions
almost every single one this entire thread. You are telling me I'm copping
out. I'm not certain here where you get to say this, if you mind being a
little more specific here, maybe I can answer something that you feel I've
copped out on.
>>No, in fact, I enjoy the fact that some players come to the table with a new
>>character that has some experience prior to game play. I enjoy seeing the
>>powerful character even. My statement was don't come to the table thinking
>>you are the most powerful X because you probably aren't, come to the table
>>to have fun and role play and be a team player.
>what's wrong with thinkin that? IT'S A GAME! look, sorry, but this is
sounding a lot like a compeditive gm who want's the pc's to feel inferior to
his creations. There is NO reason that feeling like yer pc is tough is EVER
going to cause problems in itself- if anything, you may be adopting a
compeditive attitude just as much as they are.
What's wrong with thinking that you are better than everyone else you are
playing with you ask? Let's see. It causes tension between players,
dislike, outright arguements, a breakdown of the game to mechanics, and ends
a game and has ended some friendships over petty stuff. I guess nothing is
really wrong with it if you don't mind that type of game. You are right, it
is a game, so why can't you come to the table with the attitude in mind that
you are playing a GAME. Why would it be necessary to come to the table
thinking you are the best and there is nothing you can't do. I don't know,
maybe it is me, I enjoy role playing because it is fun, challenging, and
there is a risk to my character. I wouldn't want to play if I was
guaranteed a win everytime. You're statement about players feeling their
pcs are tough is true. By itself, it causes not one problem. It is when
they begin to brag or make other PCs feel inferior to them that it causes
problems. That is what this thread on my side is about. If you are reading
differently or trying to interpret something that I said as indicating
something different, I am sorry. There it is, the meaning of my side.
Competitive against my players? No, I try to work with my players and make
sure everyone is enjoying the game, it is when they aren't due to a problem
player that I may seem competitive to that player because I'm attempting to
prevent a lynch mob.
Take it easy and talk at you later.
Sparx
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 00:41:25 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer)
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>At 05:08 PM 9/6/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>>what's wrong with strongest? and how about this- sure you can control the
>>elements, but not very well yet. . let 'em have the horsepower, just limit
>>their control.. .
>>
>>Nothing is wrong with the Strongest if you don't mind giving them that
>>title. Then you have to make sure you stick to that title as a GM.
>>
>>Player: I thought you said I was the strongest. :(
>>GM: You are.
>>Player: Well, then how come when I was flipping through my book I found
>>this enemy and he is stronger than me.
>>GM: I lowered his strength (make mental note to lower strength if ever
>>confronted.)
>>Player2: I wanted to be strongest.
>>
>
>yeah, THAT's what'd happen. . . .. any average player would take it as a
challenge-
Well, if your saying, yeah, sure that would never happen. I'm telling you
it did, it has, it would happen again if I mixed those same players together
in a game.
>i'm not talkiing about the GM saying to the player 'your pc is the best X',
i'm talking about that being a general idea in the campaign- maybe he's only
called the strongest 'cause he's got good pr?
Well, big problem here in this conversation. I'm talking about the player
declaring his character the best X due to mechanics and asking the GM to
make sure that mechanically speaking he is. As I have said in an earlier
post if he wishes to claim to be the best X the entire game he is more than
welcome to. There is a big difference in claiming and actually attempting
to be, and that is where I'm thinking our conversation and split.
>
>
>>It just gets out of hand in my opinion. Why would you give a player a piece
>>of candy like that for a fight to break out over? I do like you said
>>though, like giving them the horsepower just not the control over it. YOU
>>have the POTENTIAL to be the strongest.
>>
>>Sparx
>>
>>
>
>candy? what, you'd rather keep it all for yourself?
Not really, just give it out equally. If I have 3 bricks playing in a game,
each at different str. levels, it would be fair of me to say, you all have
the POTENTIAL (candy) to become the strongest in the campaign. It would not
be fair of me to say Brick 1 a PC, will always be stronger than Brick 2 PC
and Brick 3 PC. Let's see reactions of PC 1 by telling him no he can't be
the strongest always might get him to leave or change his attitude. But
telling the other two they can never surpass PC 1 would probably lose 2
players or give them a nice attitude against PC 1 and may not attract any
others. There is a difference. I don't know if I'm being clear about this,
but I'm trying. Take it easy and talk at you later.
Sparx
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 00:43:20 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer)
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>At 07:30 PM 9/6/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>I my old superhero game I did have a PC who was one of the strongest men
>>in the world. He didn't have any trouble with the knowledge that there
>>were a few people who had more STR than he did, because his character
>>certainly never intended to fill that niche. In my current game the PCs
>>are wel aware that there are several NPCs (two actually) that outclass
>>them totally in terms of power. This is a cool thing in thier opinion
>>since the presence of either of these NPCs in a scenario forces them to
>>think fast and try and come up with a creative solution to the problem
>>(ie. no shootouts). Works pretty well.
>>
>
>
>
>i'm not talking about 'total power', i'm talking aobut 'being best at X'. . .
The problem here, is that most, and I say this with my past players in mind,
powergamers will make being best at X equal total power. If you ask how by
now, then you haven't been reading all of my posts. Take it easy and talk
at you later.
Sparx
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 01:46:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Telekinesis
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-2,4-20,23-54
From: willggeiger@juno.com (William G Geiger)
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Aloha, WillGGeiger@juno.com
On 06 Sep 1997 23:03:23 -0400 Stainless Steel Rat
<ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "WGG" == William G Geiger <willggeiger@juno.com> writes:
>
>WGG> Yes, base TK is Visible, vs. OCV/DCV. The biggest problem I have
>with
>WGG> TK Based on ECV is that I'm not sure you can affect non-sentient
>WGG> targets with it.
>
>TK is basically Strength that can be used at range. All that BoECV
>will do
>is shift from using Dexterity to Ego for offensive CV. TK with BoECV
>still
>has its normal Strength rating, and that can (only!) affect physical
>things.
I agree, although, see that Ming vase over there? If you try to pick it
up with TK BoECV, does said vase have a 0 ECV, or a not applicable ECV,
and can't be directly affected by such?
>WGG> If you plan on making a character with an EGO higher than his
>DEX,
>WGG> consider buying extra DEX, for TK CV only (-1) [my own estimate,
>WGG> considering you get no adds to SPD, DCV, other OCVs, initiative,
>WGG> etc.].
>
>Cheaper to buy a few combat skill levels with TK, if you absolutely
>must
>have the same OCV.
Good call- cheaper and simpler, thus more elegant, I feel.
>
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>--
>Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may
>suddenly
>PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds.
> \
>
>
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 15:52:08 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: Happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
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At 12:25 AM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>i'm talking about the pc saying he's top of the heap. are you saying this
>force guy
>>would turn up and pound him for saying it? what else could you mean?
>
>Spoken like, well, I don't like what. Without trying to be insulting here,
>and please don't take it as such. It sounds like you are in the game for
>the battle of it all.
what the hell? these are your words!! i'm just trying to get a straigh answer out of you. I can't believe you don't see my point. Okay, the next time someone disagrees with me i'm going to decided that you can't see my point because you are married to a space alien. It's about as logical as this little intuitive leap you just made.
>Fine, great, I love a good fight as well as anyone
>else but there is more to role playing than fighting. Why would Force turn
>up to pound someone else who claims the title? As I could explain if you
>were in my campaign and actually met Force, he wouldn't care if you claimed
>it. Go ahead.
then why all the mess about "a pc can't say they're the best because of npc X" rot?
>Let's switch it though and says he does care, but he is
>still Force the Hero, he would probably come to you and TALK it out with
>you. Now, let's say he is Force the Villian, he would probably come to you
>and attack, if he is the most powerful TK NPC and you are 2nd best, this
>could still be an equal fight, but let's say you're 34th best. Now instead
>of fighting, it is time to use your brains and role play the situation out,
>talk it over with him, ambush him, ask your team for help, etc.. etc... but
>if your pride is too much and you think you want to take him on knowing that
>he may be more powerful than you, all the best to you.
So how does he have any part in this 'you're not the most powerful X' bit? does he show people up at TK weightlifting contests?
>What else could I
>mean? I still don't know what else you are looking for. When I say you
>can't claim you are the most powerful X, I am not talking in campaign terms.
and why does that matter? why does it matter that the pc thinks that? so you prove him wrong- so what? you're the gm! any fool can see you can create any character you want.
> If Bob the Hero wants to strut around the campaign world claiming to be god
>all day, he could, probably without much trouble. If Bob the player comes
>to me and claims, I've made the most powerful X, don't have any NPCs more
>powerful, don't let any other players be more powerful, that is where I draw
>the line. That is what I am talking about. Take it easy and talk at you later.
>
>Sparx
>
>
You're talking about an npc designed in answer of such a player? how about you just say:
"i'm the gm, i make the npcs not you. The other players and i make thier pc's, not you. end of disgussion."
you need an imaginary superhero to get this point across, despite it being the basis of the character creation process?
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 16:06:52 +1000
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From: Happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: The pet NPC was (Re: Curbing the Power Gamer)
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At 12:34 AM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>>
>>
>> cop out, cop out, cop out!
>
>I fail to see where I'm copping out. I have given you my view points. I
>have told you where they are coming from. I have answered your questions
>almost every single one this entire thread. You are telling me I'm copping
>out. I'm not certain here where you get to say this, if you mind being a
>little more specific here, maybe I can answer something that you feel I've
>copped out on.
>
three mays you copped out:
you copped out of the rationale behind all disgussion 'there is no right'
you copped out of admiting the generalities of the pc's 'my players are worse than yours'
you copped out of a challenge 'no mr player, here's a large, powerful npc that says your wrong - despite the issue being abstract to the extreme and not really requiring a solid ruling'
>>>No, in fact, I enjoy the fact that some players come to the table with a new
>>>character that has some experience prior to game play. I enjoy seeing the
>>>powerful character even. My statement was don't come to the table thinking
>>>you are the most powerful X because you probably aren't, come to the table
>>>to have fun and role play and be a team player.
>
>>what's wrong with thinkin that? IT'S A GAME! look, sorry, but this is
>sounding a lot like a compeditive gm who want's the pc's to feel inferior to
>his creations. There is NO reason that feeling like yer pc is tough is EVER
>going to cause problems in itself- if anything, you may be adopting a
>compeditive attitude just as much as they are.
>
>What's wrong with thinking that you are better than everyone else you are
>playing with you ask?
IN ONE _GIVEN_ AREA!!
>Let's see. It causes tension between players,
>dislike, outright arguements, a breakdown of the game to mechanics, and ends
>a game and has ended some friendships over petty stuff.
Now, competition between players does that, being good at something is bound to happen-
we are talking about superhumans here. who causes that(player competition)? does this have to do with the issue at hand? no. It has to do with bad players. Bad players have all sorts of issues, and the idea is to look at them, not limit game concepts so that all they can get their hands on are genre-limited straightjackets.
>I guess nothing is
>really wrong with it if you don't mind that type of game. You are right, it
>is a game, so why can't you come to the table with the attitude in mind that
>you are playing a GAME. Why would it be necessary to come to the table
>thinking you are the best and there is nothing you can't do.
not nothing! just SOMETHING! the worlds strongest man is no good at ballet!
>I don't know,
>maybe it is me, I enjoy role playing because it is fun, challenging, and
>there is a risk to my character. I wouldn't want to play if I was
>guaranteed a win everytime.
please stop with this rubbish about roleplaying. Anything involving power does not automatically preclude roleplaying- unless your trying to oversimplify the argument?
>You're statement about players feeling their
>pcs are tough is true. By itself, it causes not one problem. It is when
>they begin to brag or make other PCs feel inferior to them that it causes
>problems.
bad player! not bad concept! players abuse all sorts of things- treat the 'disease', not the symptoms!
>That is what this thread on my side is about. If you are reading
>differently or trying to interpret something that I said as indicating
>something different, I am sorry. There it is, the meaning of my side.
>Competitive against my players? No, I try to work with my players and make
>sure everyone is enjoying the game, it is when they aren't due to a problem
>player that I may seem competitive to that player because I'm attempting to
>prevent a lynch mob.
once again- csomeone good at TK can have weakness elsewhere- may veen have NCM.
But you keep linking 'good at one thing' to 'good at everything'.
>
>Take it easy and talk at you later.
>
>Sparx
>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 01:10:33 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
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>JONES again? okay, that's it- i'm gonna go back to my goofy net-name.
>And btw, a lot of gm's have the attitude that balanced pc's should have
'adequate' (i.e. token) defences vs different attack forms, which acts
basically as a leech on point totals with no rartionale.
So you are saying that some GMs will require a player to buy x amount of
Flash and Power Defense amongst other things to drain points off a
character. I think I'm on your side here, that would be annoying for the
most part. Unless it is in character concept or the GM is giving me the
points, I see no reason to spend points the GM has given me on powers the GM
wants me to have. I do see reason to cut down on my powers though if the GM
feels I'm too powerful in a certain area.
>a gm i had once insisted a computer wiz should have eloectronics to repair
things.
>this was to stop the guy having a higher programming skill than the gm
wanted him to, and he got labeled a powergamer when he objected.
Well, not knowing the character concept behind this programmer, I will take
it for granted that he was intended to be a computer programmer or at least
have the skill. Now if the player wanted the skill at a certain level and
the GM didn't like it there that is fine, it should be adjusted to the GMs
level of play. However, there is no reason for buying the electronics.
Continuing here, if the GM was just lowering his skill level not to keep the
game in balance, but just to lower the characters skill then the GM was at
fault. If on the other hand, computer programming was merely a skill taken
that roughly fit into the concept of the character, such as my 16 year old
example, by the way this is a 25+ player playing the 16 year old, then it
would be hard for the GM to understand why the character has better computer
programming than most Computer Science Majors and it would be the player's
job to lower it.
>>>What it comes down to is that despite all the stuff about power-gamers,
>>their >character are actually more realistic- what's more likely, someone
>>getting one >power or many? not to metion that the 'many' powers all happen
>>to be valid >combat -concepts, while a high-power system often wastes a lot
>>of points if >designed properly.
>>
>>Oh, I beg to differ, unless you mean "interesting" in the sense of the
>>Chinese curse. Here's where that guy I mentioned before comes in, Mr. High
>>Teek with the Penetra- and Ranged- vision. He had TK at ungodly levels w/o
>>range mods, N-ray vision, and telescopic, too. The GM, who was new to this
>>guy, if not to the rest of us, didn't smell a rat until the first fight.
>>Then this guy tried to hide on a building far away and teek at the bad guys.
>>Very "realistic?" no.
>
>actually this is extremly accurate- haven't you ever heard of artilery?
this is how a psycic would fight, why would a normal human stand around in
squishing distance of a brick?
Yes and no, here we have a player who raped the rules to become a pretty
powerful character in a heroic campaign then he refused to act like a hero.
Of course, he shouldn't get into melee combat with a character, and maybe
even hiding out isn't a bad idea, but there is strategic fighting and there
is abusing the system.
>>Show me a hero who does this who is not a) comic
>>relief or b) the team's "uncooperative jerk" ala Talisman from the Justice
>>Machine. Our hero didn't want to hear the GM ask that he act more heroic.
>>It was in character, he said, for his guy to behave so.
>it was- if you want heroic behaviour, require that all pc's have it as a
psyc lim.
Gee, I don't know, when I run a heroic campaign, I pretty much state from
the beginning, you are heroes. You will act as heroes, that is the idea of
this game. Thus the whole, SUPER HERO GAME idea going on there. If you
don't want to play that, or if the group as a whole wishes to switch genres
we can. You shouldn't have to write it down on everyone's character sheet
to be heroic simply so they remember. Why are they putting on the tights
and spandex? If they want to play a lone wolf game or an anti-hero game, or
a hack-and-slash, why are they joining a Super Hero Game? These are things
to consider when you sit down to GM or Play at a game, is this what I want
to run/play. You want it as a Psych Lim that is fine, but it is a 0 point
one in my opinion.
>i have looked into lots of campaigns and seen a bunch of 'realistic' (weak)
characters.
>But the point is, could they really fight crime? could they really mix it
with heavily-armed criminals? Then you see a player wanting to play an
ultra- powerful dude-
>bulletproof, fast, brutal, this guy is WAY more likely to suvive the
fights, and hence
>a more valid superhuman. . . .
Sure if you are playing in that sort of campaign it is. A hero doesn't have
to have ANY powers to be a hero. More so, this is a GAME, so where does the
valid superhuman idea come from? Didn't see it in any of the rules? All
the comics I have and read don't have a bunch of Superman types running
around all with the same powers. Yes, a team of realistic characters could
fight crime, yes they could mix it up with heavily-armed criminals, and yes
they could die, that is what gives them bravery, power, the glory of
victory, the want for revenge, that is what gives a character life. A team
of Superman could too, but then again, what is the point save the world
today, save it tomorrow, we can all do it, only need one of us, how about I
take Monday, you take Tuesday, etc... etc.. maybe I hit a sore spot with you
when I mentioned the words Power Gamer. According to you a "Valid
Superhuman" is one that survives the fights, so you took a bunch of
superhumans together through them in a room and determined this I suppose?
Because I know some low level characters that could take out some nice high
powered ones without much effort. I guess bullet-proof doesn't always cut it.
>
>i'v had campaigns like that- it think you'll fing the whole 'has
superpowers' idea didn't really suit it- all the others sound much more
subtle to me, even though no doubt the eb were flying nontheless. I would
suggest that the pc COULD have suited this settting- he could be wierd in
his own way, imagine if the other pc's never got to meet him? But this is a
matter of character, and setting, not the 'powergamer' archetype.
Well, now we have 2 TK boys, so try to discern here. And yes there is a
very big difference between oh let's say Powergaming and a NPC Character
that is more powerful than you that you may or may not meet. This is color.
This is the universe, the world with or without the PCs. This is where the
characters come to play. I guess you would be upset also to know that there
is an agency with over hundreds of followers that you couldn't afford with
points and each one of those followers equals about half your points, give
or take and they all have weapons, neat vehicles, and a base that rivals
your own. This would probably upset you about as much as TK boy right?
Well, let's see meet Viper, UNTIL, Genocide, etc...etc... Oh but those are
powergamed according to you because there is no difference between
powergaming and NPCs that might be more powerful, forget that little check
in Hero Maker under Hunted *MORE POWERFUL* no such thing as an NPC like
that. Oops, just a mistake when making the program. I'm trying to see
things your way, really I am, but I feel you are giving me knee jerk
responses. This has gone on too long and there is no win either way for me
nor is there a loss. So I'll probably answer a few more and maybe take a
new twist on it if there is one, but I'm getting tired of repeating myself.
Take it easy and talk at you later.
Sparx
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 16:11:16 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: Happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer)
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
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At 12:43 AM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote:t talking about 'total power', i'm talking aobut 'being best at X'. . .
>
>The problem here, is that most, and I say this with my past players in mind,
>powergamers will make being best at X equal total power. If you ask how by
>now, then you haven't been reading all of my posts. Take it easy and talk
>at you later.
>
>Sparx
>
>
I have READ your posts, and there is a big fat GAP between being goood at TK and being a "god" like the teenage mutant psycic martial artist. You simply assume that anypowerful
pc will be good at anything DESPITE the fact that in a points based game.. . with equal points. .equavilent spending ratio 'twixt powers, skill, ect. . .and equivalent points-efficiancy. . this is about 2 steps from just plain IMPOSSABLE!
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 01:17:41 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
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>>You are telling
>>me that you don't like GMs requiring all players to have the same damage,
>>same defenses, etc...but now it comes down to the players making the rule
>>for themselves they all have to have the same damage, defenses, and skills
>>to compete with each other and survive the "gunslingers" that come looking
>>for the power house.
>
>why are they competing? and whoose sending thegunslingers? the gm's evil
twin skippy?
Gunslingers was not an idea mentioned by me, it was brought up on the list
and I thought I'd answer in that post. It was suggested to send gunslingers
after the powerful person and I was responding by saying what about the rest
of the team?
>
>>Soon it comes to a game of who has the most def. who
>>can sling the most power, who is best at what skill? It grows stagnant when
>>the burglar can't say she is the best at burglaring because a 16 year old
>>kid is better. It grows stagnant when a technological character can't build
>>power armor any better than that same 16 year old kid. Is my point coming
>>across at all here. There should be no perfect hero.
>
>i have never been talking about perfect heros- i was talking about hero's
who are good at a GIVEN TASK, NOT all tasks.
That's what I've been talking about, so why are you arguing with me? Maybe
I'm just not clear.
>
>>If you want it all
>>wrapped up in one, play solo adventures. Or just write books. If you want
>>to play with other players, you have to accept you are not everything and
>>give someone even an NPC the chance to be a little better than you.
>>
>
>better at what? at everything? so now you have npc's who are better at each
of the players at everything the players can do?
What have I been saying that you don't understand me. I've been talking
about a powergamer who had a character that could DO everything the rest of
the team could do and then some, power wise and skill wise. I've been
saying how *I* disapprove of that. I've been saying I have NPCs that are
sometimes more powerful than characters but not always. I've stated *I* try
to mediate among my players and make everyone happy by keeping a balanced
game. Where have I ever said that any of my NPCs were gods? Or even
overall better than all of my players? I recall saying my NPCs never
outshine my PCs if anything they come to the PCs for help even if they are
more powerful in SOME areas. Sound familiar? Take it easy and talk at you
later.
Sparx
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 16:21:00 +1000
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From: Happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer)
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At 12:41 AM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>>yeah, THAT's what'd happen. . . .. any average player would take it as a
>challenge-
>
>Well, if your saying, yeah, sure that would never happen. I'm telling you
>it did, it has, it would happen again if I mixed those same players together
>in a game.
>
so, because you have bunch of bad players any such character is off-limits in general?
>>i'm not talkiing about the GM saying to the player 'your pc is the best X',
>i'm talking about that being a general idea in the campaign- maybe he's only
>called the strongest 'cause he's got good pr?
>
>Well, big problem here in this conversation. I'm talking about the player
>declaring his character the best X due to mechanics and asking the GM to
>make sure that mechanically speaking he is. As I have said in an earlier
>post if he wishes to claim to be the best X the entire game he is more than
>welcome to. There is a big difference in claiming and actually attempting
>to be, and that is where I'm thinking our conversation and split.
>
i think you miss the point- you can't use an npc (campaign concept) to disprove a statement about mechanics (rules concept) any more than the gm (rules concept)
can talk to a pc (campaign concept).
Hence I think it's pretty clear why i made the assumption that i did.
>>>It just gets out of hand in my opinion. Why would you give a player a piece
>>>of candy like that for a fight to break out over? I do like you said
>>>though, like giving them the horsepower just not the control over it. YOU
>>>have the POTENTIAL to be the strongest.
>>>
>>>Sparx
>>>
>>>
>>
>>candy? what, you'd rather keep it all for yourself?
>
>Not really, just give it out equally. If I have 3 bricks playing in a game,
>each at different str. levels, it would be fair of me to say, you all have
>the POTENTIAL (candy) to become the strongest in the campaign.
but what if they talk about 'strongest in party'?
>It would not
>be fair of me to say Brick 1 a PC, will always be stronger than Brick 2 PC
>and Brick 3 PC.
but he won't- they can spend how they want, competition is not going to be averted by this 'it doesn't matter ' rot- he's still strongest in the party, if the want to compete, they will.
>Let's see reactions of PC 1 by telling him no he can't be
>the strongest always might get him to leave or change his attitude. But
>telling the other two they can never surpass
why can't they? no xp in your game?
>PC 1 would probably lose 2
>players or give them a nice attitude against PC 1 and may not attract any
>others. There is a difference. I don't know if I'm being clear about this,
>but I'm trying. Take it easy and talk at you later.
>
>Sparx
>
>
your basing this on the assumptions that:
A) any competittion is over 'best X character ever' - does that include giant alien monsters, in reguards to strenth, btw?
B) the players are compeditive to the point of neuroisis
C) there are multiple players who all settled on very , VERY simmilar power concepts. .
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 01:27:28 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
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>At 12:25 AM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>>i'm talking about the pc saying he's top of the heap. are you saying this
>>force guy
>>>would turn up and pound him for saying it? what else could you mean?
>>
>>Spoken like, well, I don't like what. Without trying to be insulting here,
>>and please don't take it as such. It sounds like you are in the game for
>>the battle of it all.
>
>what the hell? these are your words!! i'm just trying to get a straigh
answer out of you. I can't believe you don't see my point. Okay, the next
time someone disagrees with me i'm going to decided that you can't see my
point because you are married to a space alien. It's about as logical as
this little intuitive leap you just made.
Maybe I'm tired, maybe you misunderstood me. I think I'm being cleared.
Muddy mind and all can make things confusing. I just wish when you say
things like this, you tell me WHAT it is you don't understand. I don't see
your point here, sorry.
>
>>Fine, great, I love a good fight as well as anyone
>>else but there is more to role playing than fighting. Why would Force turn
>>up to pound someone else who claims the title? As I could explain if you
>>were in my campaign and actually met Force, he wouldn't care if you claimed
>>it. Go ahead.
>
>then why all the mess about "a pc can't say they're the best because of npc
X" rot?
They can say they are the best if they so desire. It may or may not be true.
I just want the PCs to understand they are part of a world, a universe that
has been made by me, taking some work for their entertainment. There is
more to the game then the single player, there is the team, the GM, and the
campaign world.
>>Let's switch it though and says he does care, but he is
>>still Force the Hero, he would probably come to you and TALK it out with
>>you. Now, let's say he is Force the Villian, he would probably come to you
>>and attack, if he is the most powerful TK NPC and you are 2nd best, this
>>could still be an equal fight, but let's say you're 34th best. Now instead
>>of fighting, it is time to use your brains and role play the situation out,
>>talk it over with him, ambush him, ask your team for help, etc.. etc... but
>>if your pride is too much and you think you want to take him on knowing that
>>he may be more powerful than you, all the best to you.
>
>So how does he have any part in this 'you're not the most powerful X' bit?
does he show people up at TK weightlifting contests?
Ok, let's forget about Force because I think he is muddling our
conversation. He would not show people up. He is there as background of
the world. Have you been reading the pointers and other stuff in GM Corner,
I will confess, I've only glanced at it. But I seem to recall, what other
heroes exist, who are they, what do they do, stuff like that. Force exist,
he is a hero, etc...etc...he is there as part of your Universe instead of
the Universe unfolding around you as you do things. Player: I need a lab.
GM: Sorry, I never thought up any labs because you never wanted one get
back to me next week when I add that to your Universe.
>
>
>>What else could I
>>mean? I still don't know what else you are looking for. When I say you
>>can't claim you are the most powerful X, I am not talking in campaign terms.
>
>and why does that matter? why does it matter that the pc thinks that? so
you prove him wrong- so what? you're the gm! any fool can see you can create
any character you want.
It matters to the other players. I don't know. Do you know what other
people are, those that care about competition about looking inferior to
others? They play RPGs too. They don't want to waste 5 hours listening to
someone else prove his character is better in every way shape and form than
there character. Let me say EVERY way shape and form.
>You're talking about an npc designed in answer of such a player? how about
you just say:
>
>"i'm the gm, i make the npcs not you. The other players and i make thier
pc's, not you. end of disgussion."
Well, as this thread has proven, you can't say End of Discussion and
actually have it happen. This is even more true, when someone is trying to
defend the right to their character design.
>
>you need an imaginary superhero to get this point across, despite it being
the basis of the character creation process?
No, I need an imaginary superhero and many others to make my campaign world
more real. That is what they are truly there for.
Sparx
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 01:39:05 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: The pet NPC was (Re: Curbing the Power Gamer)
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>three mays you copped out:
>
>you copped out of the rationale behind all disgussion 'there is no right'
This is not a cop out. I am telling you that my way is right for my
players, my campaigns, my rulings. I am telling you it may be completely
wrong for you. Fine, so be it. So I'm suppose to say there is a right? I
just haven't seen your way yet?
>
>you copped out of admiting the generalities of the pc's 'my players are
worse than yours'
My players are no worse or no better than any other players. I know what
works for them and what doesn't and I use it.
>
>you copped out of a challenge 'no mr player, here's a large, powerful npc
that says your wrong - despite the issue being abstract to the extreme and
not really requiring a solid ruling'
Huh?
>
>>>>No, in fact, I enjoy the fact that some players come to the table with a
new
>>>>character that has some experience prior to game play. I enjoy seeing the
>>>>powerful character even. My statement was don't come to the table thinking
>>>>you are the most powerful X because you probably aren't, come to the table
>>>>to have fun and role play and be a team player.
>>
>>>what's wrong with thinkin that? IT'S A GAME! look, sorry, but this is
>>sounding a lot like a compeditive gm who want's the pc's to feel inferior to
>>his creations. There is NO reason that feeling like yer pc is tough is EVER
>>going to cause problems in itself- if anything, you may be adopting a
>>compeditive attitude just as much as they are.
>>
>>What's wrong with thinking that you are better than everyone else you are
>>playing with you ask?
>
>
>IN ONE _GIVEN_ AREA!!
NOTHING IN ONE GIVEN AREA!! WE AGREE HERE!! STOP IT!!
>
>>Let's see. It causes tension between players,
>>dislike, outright arguements, a breakdown of the game to mechanics, and ends
>>a game and has ended some friendships over petty stuff.
>
>Now, competition between players does that, being good at something is
bound to happen-
>we are talking about superhumans here. who causes that(player competition)?
does this have to do with the issue at hand? no. It has to do with bad
players. Bad players have all sorts of issues, and the idea is to look at
them, not limit game concepts so that all they can get their hands on are
genre-limited straightjackets.
So now, you are calling my players bad? Hey! Only I can do that. It has
everything to do with the issue at hand since all I've been talking about
since I've started my conversation is my players and my experiences with them.
>
>>I guess nothing is
>>really wrong with it if you don't mind that type of game. You are right, it
>>is a game, so why can't you come to the table with the attitude in mind that
>>you are playing a GAME. Why would it be necessary to come to the table
>>thinking you are the best and there is nothing you can't do.
>
>
>not nothing! just SOMETHING! the worlds strongest man is no good at ballet!
Ah, but you don't understand, if it were something important I'd have a 3 or
4 great brick ballet dancers.
>please stop with this rubbish about roleplaying. Anything involving power
does not automatically preclude roleplaying- unless your trying to
oversimplify the argument?
Yeah, let's take roleplaying out of this discussion about roleplaying. It
will make things so much easier. Huh?
>>You're statement about players feeling their
>>pcs are tough is true. By itself, it causes not one problem. It is when
>>they begin to brag or make other PCs feel inferior to them that it causes
>>problems.
>
>bad player! not bad concept! players abuse all sorts of things- treat the
'disease', not the symptoms!
I am treating it, and I'm treating it fairly good over on my side.
>>That is what this thread on my side is about. If you are reading
>>differently or trying to interpret something that I said as indicating
>>something different, I am sorry. There it is, the meaning of my side.
>>Competitive against my players? No, I try to work with my players and make
>>sure everyone is enjoying the game, it is when they aren't due to a problem
>>player that I may seem competitive to that player because I'm attempting to
>>prevent a lynch mob.
>
>once again- csomeone good at TK can have weakness elsewhere- may veen have NCM.
>But you keep linking 'good at one thing' to 'good at everything'.
No, I don't. I'm telling you my Power Gamers, link being good at being the
best at everything. That is what they do. I'm not linking. It is the
truth. What do you want from me? I say fine be good at one thing be good
at a few things, in fact having linking skills that make sense. Don't be
good at everything. That is what they try.
Sparx
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 16:39:44 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: Happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
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At 01:10 AM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>>Very "realistic?" no.
>>
>>actually this is extremly accurate- haven't you ever heard of artilery?
>this is how a psycic would fight, why would a normal human stand around in
>squishing distance of a brick?
>
>Yes and no, here we have a player who raped the rules to become a pretty
>powerful character in a heroic campaign then he refused to act like a hero.
>Of course, he shouldn't get into melee combat with a character, and maybe
>even hiding out isn't a bad idea, but there is strategic fighting and there
>is abusing the system.
>
they happen to be the same thing- strategy is trying to win- and the pc isn't useing discrepancies in the rules he's doing something that makes strategic sence.
>>>Show me a hero who does this who is not a) comic
>>>relief or b) the team's "uncooperative jerk" ala Talisman from the Justice
>>>Machine. Our hero didn't want to hear the GM ask that he act more heroic.
>>>It was in character, he said, for his guy to behave so.
>
>>it was- if you want heroic behaviour, require that all pc's have it as a
>psyc lim.
>
>Gee, I don't know, when I run a heroic campaign, I pretty much state from
>the beginning, you are heroes. You will act as heroes, that is the idea of
>this game. Thus the whole, SUPER HERO GAME idea going on there. If you
>don't want to play that, or if the group as a whole wishes to switch genres
>we can.
pin_it_down! in my superherioc games there is noting 'heroic' about riskiong your ass needlessly, how is that heroic? hence, definne your terms, don't act like it 'obvious' what you mean.
>You shouldn't have to write it down on everyone's character sheet
>to be heroic simply so they remember. Why are they putting on the tights
>and spandex?
the same reason wolverine did? hows about the punisher?
>If they want to play a lone wolf game or an anti-hero game, or
>a hack-and-slash, why are they joining a Super Hero Game? These are things
>to consider when you sit down to GM or Play at a game, is this what I want
>to run/play. You want it as a Psych Lim that is fine, but it is a 0 point
>one in my opinion.
>
fine- 0 point- just don't pretend any of these things are obvious- sounds pretty chliche and hckneyed to me, btw. . .
>>i have looked into lots of campaigns and seen a bunch of 'realistic' (weak)
>characters.
>>But the point is, could they really fight crime? could they really mix it
>with heavily-armed criminals? Then you see a player wanting to play an
>ultra- powerful dude-
>>bulletproof, fast, brutal, this guy is WAY more likely to suvive the
>fights, and hence
>>a more valid superhuman. . . .
>
>Sure if you are playing in that sort of campaign it is. A hero doesn't have
>to have ANY powers to be a hero. More so, this is a GAME, so where does the
>valid superhuman idea come from?
those are my terms for 'realistic'
>Didn't see it in any of the rules? All
>the comics I have and read don't have a bunch of Superman types running
>around all with the same powers. Yes, a team of realistic characters could
>fight crime, yes they could mix it up with heavily-armed criminals, and yes
>they could die, that is what gives them bravery, power, the glory of
>victory, the want for revenge, that is what gives a character life. A team
>of Superman could too, but then again, what is the point save the world
>today, save it tomorrow, we can all do it, only need one of us, how about I
>take Monday, you take Tuesday, etc... etc.. maybe I hit a sore spot with you
>when I mentioned the words Power Gamer. According to you a "Valid
>Superhuman" is one that survives the fights, so you took a bunch of
>superhumans together through them in a room and determined this I suppose?
>Because I know some low level characters that could take out some nice high
>powered ones without much effort. I guess bullet-proof doesn't always cut it.
>>
so combat skilled instead- but my point is still valid- the more combat power,
the better they are at kicking ass.
>>i'v had campaigns like that- it think you'll fing the whole 'has
>superpowers' idea didn't really suit it- all the others sound much more
>subtle to me, even though no doubt the eb were flying nontheless. I would
>suggest that the pc COULD have suited this settting- he could be wierd in
>his own way, imagine if the other pc's never got to meet him? But this is a
>matter of character, and setting, not the 'powergamer' archetype.
>
>Well, now we have 2 TK boys, so try to discern here. And yes there is a
>very big difference between oh let's say Powergaming and a NPC Character
>that is more powerful than you that you may or may not meet.
i'm talking about a pc.
>This is color.
> This is the universe, the world with or without the PCs. This is where the
>characters come to play. I guess you would be upset also to know that there
>is an agency with over hundreds of followers that you couldn't afford with
>points and each one of those followers equals about half your points, give
>or take and they all have weapons, neat vehicles, and a base that rivals
>your own. This would probably upset you about as much as TK boy right?
>Well, let's see meet Viper, UNTIL, Genocide, etc...etc... Oh but those are
>powergamed according to you because there is no difference between
>powergaming and NPCs that might be more powerful, forget that little check
>in Hero Maker under Hunted *MORE POWERFUL* no such thing as an NPC like
>that.
what the hell are you on about? since when did i say anything like that?
look, either stick to >direct quotes or quit altogether, one thing i cannot stand is barefaced misquotation like this. You designed a character to make the pc's look inferior. Your rationalisations thus far have proved that it is a pet npc, and you attempt at an argument is based on misquotation.
>Oops, just a mistake when making the program. I'm trying to see
>things your way, really I am, but I feel you are giving me knee jerk
>responses. This has gone on too long and there is no win either way for me
>nor is there a loss. So I'll probably answer a few more and maybe take a
>new twist on it if there is one, but I'm getting tired of repeating myself.
>Take it easy and talk at you later.
>
>Sparx
>
>
this is ridiculous- if you're tired of repeating yourself, say something that makes sence!
go ahead and stop, but don't pretend it's because i'm not listening- i've been listenig all bloody day and you're WRONG! you npc cannot be supported by that rationale.
If you like the npc, FINE.
but don't pretend it goes beyond that.
This is the last i'll be saying on the matter, unless one of your 'twists' turns out like i expect.
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 01:43:12 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer)
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>I have READ your posts, and there is a big fat GAP between being goood at
TK and being a "god" like the teenage mutant psycic martial artist.
Ok first, he wasn't a TK and he wasn't a mutant. He was a PC power gamer.
Missed something did we? He started as a martial artist and as he found
players had areas he did not have he would find a way to get the area and be
better at them with some rationale.
You simply assume that anypowerful
>pc will be good at anything DESPITE the fact that in a points based game..
. with equal points. .equavilent spending ratio 'twixt powers, skill, ect. .
.and equivalent points-efficiancy. . this is about 2 steps from just plain
IMPOSSABLE!
And you are assuming all of my players spend points in the same manner. I
have already stated that the power gamers I have dealt with have managed to
pull nearly 100 more active points from breaks and stuff over my average
players. Yes, it seems impossible, but it isn't with limitations, and point
breaks that most average players wouldn't bother with. You see, he isn't
good at everything, just everything the other players try to specialize in
and he makes them look inferior to his character. I refer to him as he, but
as I have stated before there is more than one.
Sparx
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 01:48:24 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer)
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>At 12:41 AM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>>
>>>yeah, THAT's what'd happen. . . .. any average player would take it as a
>>challenge-
>>
>>Well, if your saying, yeah, sure that would never happen. I'm telling you
>>it did, it has, it would happen again if I mixed those same players together
>>in a game.
>>
>
>so, because you have bunch of bad players any such character is off-limits
in general?
For those players, yes. I have recently started with a new group and we'll
have to see where it leads.
>>Not really, just give it out equally. If I have 3 bricks playing in a game,
>>each at different str. levels, it would be fair of me to say, you all have
>>the POTENTIAL (candy) to become the strongest in the campaign.
>
>but what if they talk about 'strongest in party'?
If the other players were fine with it, I would be too. That is a big IF.
>
>>It would not
>>be fair of me to say Brick 1 a PC, will always be stronger than Brick 2 PC
>>and Brick 3 PC.
>
>but he won't- they can spend how they want, competition is not going to be
averted by this 'it doesn't matter ' rot- he's still strongest in the party,
if the want to compete, they will.
>
>>Let's see reactions of PC 1 by telling him no he can't be
>>the strongest always might get him to leave or change his attitude. But
>>telling the other two they can never surpass
>
>why can't they? no xp in your game?
You missed that part about PC 1 coming to me and saying as a GM I want you
to guarantee I will always be stronger than PC 2 or PC 3. It has happened.
>your basing this on the assumptions that:
>
>A) any competittion is over 'best X character ever' - does that include
giant alien monsters, in reguards to strenth, btw?
It is in my group. I'm not making a generalization. Is that what you think
I'm doing? Do you think I'm saying that what I say holds true for everyone
world wide? NO, this holds true for my gaming group. MY GAMING GROUP!!
>B) the players are compeditive to the point of neuroisis
Remember that ink blot test :)
>
>C) there are multiple players who all settled on very , VERY simmilar power
concepts. .
YES!! I think we are getting it. Hey look if you have a real suggestion on
how to handle these players other than ditch them, I'll take what I can get.
Take it easy and talk at you later.
Sparx
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 16:48:30 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: Happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
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At 01:17 AM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>>>Soon it comes to a game of who has the most def. who
>>>can sling the most power, who is best at what skill? It grows stagnant when
>>>the burglar can't say she is the best at burglaring because a 16 year old
>>>kid is better. It grows stagnant when a technological character can't build
>>>power armor any better than that same 16 year old kid. Is my point coming
>>>across at all here. There should be no perfect hero.
>>
>>i have never been talking about perfect heros- i was talking about hero's
>who are good at a GIVEN TASK, NOT all tasks.
>
>That's what I've been talking about, so why are you arguing with me? Maybe
>I'm just not clear.
>
because i don't agree with you!!!!!!!!!!!!
you used the example of telekinesis which is at best a group of powers, maybe in an ec.
>>
>>better at what? at everything? so now you have npc's who are better at each
>of the players at everything the players can do?
>
>What have I been saying that you don't understand me. I've been talking
>about a powergamer who had a character that could DO everything the rest of
>the team could do and then some, power wise and skill wise. I've been
>saying how *I* disapprove of that. I've been saying I have NPCs that are
>sometimes more powerful than characters but not always.
and your rationale for one of these npc's was that a player said thei pc said they were the best at something.. .
>I've stated *I* try
>to mediate among my players and make everyone happy by keeping a balanced
>game. Where have I ever said that any of my NPCs were gods? Or even
>overall better than all of my players?
well how else can you realte this idea of 'good at one thing' to 'power gamer'?
>I recall saying my NPCs never
>outshine my PCs
apart from when you specifically design them to do so, as you SAID you did with the force-tk-guy?
>if anything they come to the PCs for help even if they are
>more powerful in SOME areas.
yes- and those are the areas that count. You already stated your assupption that
'powerful at one thing' leads to a power gamer
>Sound familiar? Take it easy and talk at you
>later.
>
yup, AT me, u sure as hell ain't listening to either of us. . .
>Sparx
>
>
>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 01:59:50 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
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>At 01:10 AM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>>>Very "realistic?" no.
>>>
>>>actually this is extremly accurate- haven't you ever heard of artilery?
>>this is how a psycic would fight, why would a normal human stand around in
>>squishing distance of a brick?
>>
>>Yes and no, here we have a player who raped the rules to become a pretty
>>powerful character in a heroic campaign then he refused to act like a hero.
>>Of course, he shouldn't get into melee combat with a character, and maybe
>>even hiding out isn't a bad idea, but there is strategic fighting and there
>>is abusing the system.
>>
>
>they happen to be the same thing- strategy is trying to win- and the pc
isn't useing discrepancies in the rules he's doing something that makes
strategic sence.
>
>>>>Show me a hero who does this who is not a) comic
>>>>relief or b) the team's "uncooperative jerk" ala Talisman from the Justice
>>>>Machine. Our hero didn't want to hear the GM ask that he act more heroic.
>>>>It was in character, he said, for his guy to behave so.
>>
>>>it was- if you want heroic behaviour, require that all pc's have it as a
>>psyc lim.
>>
>>Gee, I don't know, when I run a heroic campaign, I pretty much state from
>>the beginning, you are heroes. You will act as heroes, that is the idea of
>>this game. Thus the whole, SUPER HERO GAME idea going on there. If you
>>don't want to play that, or if the group as a whole wishes to switch genres
>>we can.
>
>pin_it_down! in my superherioc games there is noting 'heroic' about
riskiong your ass needlessly, how is that heroic? hence, definne your terms,
don't act like it 'obvious' what you mean.
Oh, I don't know, when a player asks me, what is heroic? I just throw down
about a half dozen comics and say, this is the type of game you are joining.
Want to read them and play? They usually include such books as X-men,
Avengers, and the JLA.
>>You shouldn't have to write it down on everyone's character sheet
>>to be heroic simply so they remember. Why are they putting on the tights
>>and spandex?
>
>the same reason wolverine did? hows about the punisher?
Let's see, if I remember right, Wolverine didn't want to, and Punisher was a
highered assassin. Why did they become heroes. Don't know, don't like them
that much.
>>>i have looked into lots of campaigns and seen a bunch of 'realistic' (weak)
>>characters.
>>>But the point is, could they really fight crime? could they really mix it
>>with heavily-armed criminals? Then you see a player wanting to play an
>>ultra- powerful dude-
>>>bulletproof, fast, brutal, this guy is WAY more likely to suvive the
>>fights, and hence
>>>a more valid superhuman. . . .
>>
>>Sure if you are playing in that sort of campaign it is. A hero doesn't have
>>to have ANY powers to be a hero. More so, this is a GAME, so where does the
>>valid superhuman idea come from?
>
>those are my terms for 'realistic'
Fine, if battle monsters are more realistic heroes for you, your opinion.
>>Didn't see it in any of the rules? All
>>the comics I have and read don't have a bunch of Superman types running
>>around all with the same powers. Yes, a team of realistic characters could
>>fight crime, yes they could mix it up with heavily-armed criminals, and yes
>>they could die, that is what gives them bravery, power, the glory of
>>victory, the want for revenge, that is what gives a character life. A team
>>of Superman could too, but then again, what is the point save the world
>>today, save it tomorrow, we can all do it, only need one of us, how about I
>>take Monday, you take Tuesday, etc... etc.. maybe I hit a sore spot with you
>>when I mentioned the words Power Gamer. According to you a "Valid
>>Superhuman" is one that survives the fights, so you took a bunch of
>>superhumans together through them in a room and determined this I suppose?
>>Because I know some low level characters that could take out some nice high
>>powered ones without much effort. I guess bullet-proof doesn't always cut it.
>>>
>
>so combat skilled instead- but my point is still valid- the more combat power,
>the better they are at kicking ass.
Well, yeah. Right answer? I don't know what am I suppose to say to that.
Does that make them the perfect or valid hero? In your mind, yes. In my
mind, the fireman who saves a dog from a burning building is every bit the hero.
>what the hell are you on about? since when did i say anything like that?
>look, either stick to >direct quotes or quit altogether, one thing i cannot
stand is barefaced misquotation like this.
">>suggest that the pc COULD have suited this settting- he could be wierd in
>>his own way, imagine if the other pc's never got to meet him? But this is a
>>matter of character, and setting, not the 'powergamer' archetype."
Ok, this seems like direct quoting. Looks like you are referring to me.
Maybe I'm wrong. That is what I was referring about.
You designed a character to make the pc's look inferior.
I designed numerous NPCs to be part of the world. NONE have EVER made the
players look inferior, nor the PCs.
Your rationalisations thus far have proved that it is a pet npc, and you
attempt at an argument is based on misquotation.
I attempt an arguement based on misunderstandings from you and me which now
that we are coming to understand interesting become misquoting.
>this is ridiculous- if you're tired of repeating yourself, say something
that makes sence!
>
>go ahead and stop, but don't pretend it's because i'm not listening- i've
been listenig all bloody day and you're WRONG! you npc cannot be supported
by that rationale.
>If you like the npc, FINE.
>but don't pretend it goes beyond that.
It does. WRONG would be defined here as not in accordance with your
thoughts I gather. Fine, I'm wrong.
>This is the last i'll be saying on the matter, unless one of your 'twists'
turns out like i expect.
Well, this has gone a little longer simply because you are online and it has
turned more into a conversation. I wonder how you expect a twist to turn
out though?
Take it easy and talk at you later.
Sparx
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 00:01:41 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Vari-multi pools
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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Carl Gilchrist wrote:
>
> One of the things I have done for variable power pools, and that I
> require for almost every VPP in my campaign, is the limitation:
>
> based on active points -1/4
>
> what this means is that it does not matter what limitations get placed
> on the power for how many points the power takes up in the pool, ie
>
> a 10d6 energy blast will always take up 50 points out of the vpp, there
> is no other reason to take limitations on the powers in the vpp,
> thereby making the vpp a widescale multipower
I've done this one myself, though I simply called it (-1/4)"VPP has
'ultra' slots" referring to the MP slot requiring dedication of all
Active points of a power, regardless of usage specs..
Though there are, in fact, still needs for limitations on the powers
in that kind of VPP - IF your players are true to their concepts.... I
took this limitation on my Spidey-clone's Pool for "Webbing
applications", since regardless of the limitations and specifics of any
of his effects, he only had so much webbing (represented by active
points) available per phase. Thus even though he used a 50-active point
power, to be accurate, he still sometimes had up to (-2) or more of
limitations, simply to accurately represent the specifics of the
particular application.
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 17:03:34 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: Happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: The pet NPC was (Re: Curbing the Power Gamer)
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 01:39 AM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>three mays you copped out:
>>
>>you copped out of the rationale behind all disgussion 'there is no right'
>
>This is not a cop out. I am telling you that my way is right for my
>players, my campaigns, my rulings. I am telling you it may be completely
>wrong for you. Fine, so be it. So I'm suppose to say there is a right? I
>just haven't seen your way yet?
>
>>
>>you copped out of admiting the generalities of the pc's 'my players are
>worse than yours'
>
>My players are no worse or no better than any other players. I know what
>works for them and what doesn't and I use it.
>
>>
>>you copped out of a challenge 'no mr player, here's a large, powerful npc
>that says your wrong - despite the issue being abstract to the extreme and
>not really requiring a solid ruling'
>
>Huh?
>
>>
>>>>>No, in fact, I enjoy the fact that some players come to the table with a
>new
>>>>>character that has some experience prior to game play. I enjoy seeing the
>>>>>powerful character even. My statement was don't come to the table thinking
>>>>>you are the most powerful X because you probably aren't, come to the table
>>>>>to have fun and role play and be a team player.
>>>
>>>>what's wrong with thinkin that? IT'S A GAME! look, sorry, but this is
>>>sounding a lot like a compeditive gm who want's the pc's to feel inferior to
>>>his creations. There is NO reason that feeling like yer pc is tough is EVER
>>>going to cause problems in itself- if anything, you may be adopting a
>>>compeditive attitude just as much as they are.
>>>
>>>What's wrong with thinking that you are better than everyone else you are
>>>playing with you ask?
>>
>>
>>IN ONE _GIVEN_ AREA!!
>
>NOTHING IN ONE GIVEN AREA!! WE AGREE HERE!! STOP IT!!
>
so telekinesis isn't one area?
>>
>>>Let's see. It causes tension between players,
>>>dislike, outright arguements, a breakdown of the game to mechanics, and ends
>>>a game and has ended some friendships over petty stuff.
>>
>>Now, competition between players does that, being good at something is
>bound to happen-
>>we are talking about superhumans here. who causes that(player competition)?
>does this have to do with the issue at hand? no. It has to do with bad
>players. Bad players have all sorts of issues, and the idea is to look at
>them, not limit game concepts so that all they can get their hands on are
>genre-limited straightjackets.
>
>So now, you are calling my players bad? Hey! Only I can do that. It has
>everything to do with the issue at hand since all I've been talking about
>since I've started my conversation is my players and my experiences with them.
>
your talking about things players do wrong, but acting like it's a problem with charactr creation. it isn't. .
>>
>>>I guess nothing is
>>>really wrong with it if you don't mind that type of game. You are right, it
>>>is a game, so why can't you come to the table with the attitude in mind that
>>>you are playing a GAME. Why would it be necessary to come to the table
>>>thinking you are the best and there is nothing you can't do.
>>
>>
>>not nothing! just SOMETHING! the worlds strongest man is no good at ballet!
>
>Ah, but you don't understand, if it were something important I'd have a 3 or
>4 great brick ballet dancers.
>
>
>>please stop with this rubbish about roleplaying. Anything involving power
>does not automatically preclude roleplaying- unless your trying to
>oversimplify the argument?
>
>Yeah, let's take roleplaying out of this discussion about roleplaying. It
>will make things so much easier. Huh?
>
yeah, that's what i said.. ..
>>>You're statement about players feeling their
>>>pcs are tough is true. By itself, it causes not one problem. It is when
>>>they begin to brag or make other PCs feel inferior to them that it causes
>>>problems.
>>
>>bad player! not bad concept! players abuse all sorts of things- treat the
>'disease', not the symptoms!
>
>I am treating it, and I'm treating it fairly good over on my side.
>
no, to extend the metaphor you're amputating a limb to treat a hangnail.
>>>That is what this thread on my side is about. If you are reading
>>>differently or trying to interpret something that I said as indicating
>>>something different, I am sorry. There it is, the meaning of my side.
>>>Competitive against my players? No, I try to work with my players and make
>>>sure everyone is enjoying the game, it is when they aren't due to a problem
>>>player that I may seem competitive to that player because I'm attempting to
>>>prevent a lynch mob.
>>
>>once again- csomeone good at TK can have weakness elsewhere- may veen have NCM.
>>But you keep linking 'good at one thing' to 'good at everything'.
>
>No, I don't. I'm telling you my Power Gamers, link being good at being the
>best at everything. That is what they do. I'm not linking. It is the
>truth. What do you want from me? I say fine be good at one thing be good
>at a few things, in fact having linking skills that make sense. Don't be
>good at everything. That is what they try.
>
>Sparx
>
>
power gamers try to be good at everything. 'pro's' try to be good at one thing. The twain only meet when gm's label them simmilar.
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 02:06:19 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
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>>I recall saying my NPCs never
>>outshine my PCs
>
>apart from when you specifically design them to do so, as you SAID you did
with the force-tk-guy?
Wrong, Force existed long before this player along with nearly 100 other
NPCs that populate by campaign. I guess I just have a lot of pets.
>>if anything they come to the PCs for help even if they are
>>more powerful in SOME areas.
>
>yes- and those are the areas that count. You already stated your assupption
that
>'powerful at one thing' leads to a power gamer
Wrong again. I have stated many times over that I have tons of average
players who specialize their characters in one area. The power gamer is the
person who comes in and outshines every player in each area.
>yup, AT me, u sure as hell ain't listening to either of us. . .
Yeah, maybe I'm tired, or maybe it is the talking in circles that I've been
doing.
Sparx
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 02:14:04 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
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>if you'd left the whole conversation in place it would be obvious to anybody-
>you said something along the lines of :
>
>"player X cannon say thing Y because of npc Z"
>
>and i said:
>
>"WTF?"
If I left the whole conversation in place it would take me weeks to scroll
through now. Point being, I'm not, maybe that is why I'm repeating myself
so much.
>>>then why all the mess about "a pc can't say they're the best because of npc
>>X" rot?
>>
>>They can say they are the best if they so desire. It may or may not be true.
>> I just want the PCs to understand they are part of a world, a universe that
>>has been made by me, taking some work for their entertainment. There is
>>more to the game then the single player, there is the team, the GM, and the
>>campaign world.
>>
>
>They already know that i think the only person who needs to push the
concept is you.
They DO??? You know my players? Please, give me a list of names.
>>>So how does he have any part in this 'you're not the most powerful X' bit?
>>does he show people up at TK weightlifting contests?
>>
>>Ok, let's forget about Force because I think he is muddling our
>>conversation. He would not show people up. He is there as background of
>>the world.
>
>
>look at the statement i made above- these are your words! you asserted that
the npc existed to prove the pc wasn't the best.
You mean these words, ">Ok, let's forget about Force because I think he is
muddling our
>>conversation. He would not show people up. He is there as background of
>>the world." Yeah, that says to me he is to prove to the PC he isn't the best.
>erm, yeah, that's what you mean. .. you stated this based on the 'powwer
player' rationale, as it moved into 'good at one thing territory' i'm
keeping track of my argumanet, please keep track of your own.
Never changed my arguement, just misunderstood is all.
>>They don't want to waste 5 hours listening to
>>someone else prove his character is better in every way shape and form than
>>there character. Let me say EVERY way shape and form.
>>
>
>but they have to hear about force?
>no, no, i'm sure they never do.
You do keep track of my arguement so well, you failed to mention that I
could give you a list of my players and not one of them would be able to
mention Force (said that a couple times) who was brought up because someone
asked about making a Jean Grey equivalent on the list.
>>Well, as this thread has proven, you can't say End of Discussion and
>>actually have it happen. This is even more true, when someone is trying to
>>defend the right to their character design.
>>
>
>no, it is true- you're the gm, you word is law. THIS is a disgussion of
peers, THAT
>is a basic tenant of roleplaying.
My word is law, really? I guess, you have your players whipped into shape.
Hehehe...Well, let me say this, my word is not law and fights among peers
break out. I can say NO all I want, I could not allow a player to play a
character but people aren't robots. You don't say NO and have them say oh,
ok, gm said, no, that means no, I'll behave. Sheeah right.
>you have sucessfully abandoned your original argument. congratulations.
No, I've never left it. I've just try to bring into light for you a little
better.
Sparx
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 17:43:20 +1000
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From: Happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer)
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At 01:43 AM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>I have READ your posts, and there is a big fat GAP between being goood at
>TK and being a "god" like the teenage mutant psycic martial artist.
>
>Ok first, he wasn't a TK and he wasn't a mutant. He was a PC power gamer.
>Missed something did we? He started as a martial artist and as he found
>players had areas he did not have he would find a way to get the area and be
>better at them with some rationale.
>
NO!!!! ONE GUY HAD TK, the other was the martial artist.
and the mutant bit. . joke. . y'know. . teennage-mutant. . . . . . .
forget it. . .
> You simply assume that anypowerful
>>pc will be good at anything DESPITE the fact that in a points based game..
>. with equal points. .equavilent spending ratio 'twixt powers, skill, ect. .
> .and equivalent points-efficiancy. . this is about 2 steps from just plain
>IMPOSSABLE!
>
>And you are assuming all of my players spend points in the same manner. I
>have already stated that the power gamers I have dealt with have managed to
>pull nearly 100 more active points from breaks and stuff over my average
>players. Yes, it seems impossible, but it isn't with limitations, and point
>breaks that most average players wouldn't bother with. You see, he isn't
>good at everything, just everything the other players try to specialize in
>and he makes them look inferior to his character. I refer to him as he, but
>as I have stated before there is more than one.
>
>Sparx
>
>
like i said - equivalent points-efficiancy- this is something you should enforce.
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 17:51:55 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: Happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
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At 01:59 AM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Well, yeah. Right answer? I don't know what am I suppose to say to that.
>Does that make them the perfect or valid hero? In your mind, yes. In my
>mind, the fireman who saves a dog from a burning building is every bit the hero.
>
power realistic, NOT heroic realistic!
>>what the hell are you on about? since when did i say anything like that?
>>look, either stick to >direct quotes or quit altogether, one thing i cannot
>stand is barefaced misquotation like this.
>
>">>suggest that the pc COULD have suited this settting- he could be wierd in
>>>his own way, imagine if the other pc's never got to meet him? But this is a
>>>matter of character, and setting, not the 'powergamer' archetype."
>
um, excuse me? my statemant was responding to the statement you made
that i was saying powerful npc's are power-gamers, what about viper, blah, blah.
>Ok, this seems like direct quoting. Looks like you are referring to me.
>Maybe I'm wrong. That is what I was referring about.
>
no, you weren't
>>go ahead and stop, but don't pretend it's because i'm not listening- i've
>been listenig all bloody day and you're WRONG! you npc cannot be supported
>by that rationale.
>>If you like the npc, FINE.
>>but don't pretend it goes beyond that.
>
>It does. WRONG would be defined here as not in accordance with your
>thoughts I gather. Fine, I'm wrong.
>
>
>
so anything disagreeing with you get this crap? i PROVED MY CASE! i have argued the point, useing logic, you have done nothing of the sort. If you didn't want to discuss it, why mention it?
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 17:54:01 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: Happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
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At 02:06 AM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>>I recall saying my NPCs never
>>>outshine my PCs
>>
>>apart from when you specifically design them to do so, as you SAID you did
>with the force-tk-guy?
>
>Wrong, Force existed long before this player along with nearly 100 other
>NPCs that populate by campaign. I guess I just have a lot of pets.
>
despite you saying that 'npc X is here so pc Y can't say Z'?
>>>if anything they come to the PCs for help even if they are
>>>more powerful in SOME areas.
>>
>>yes- and those are the areas that count. You already stated your assupption
>that
>>'powerful at one thing' leads to a power gamer
>
>Wrong again. I have stated many times over that I have tons of average
>players who specialize their characters in one area. The power gamer is the
>person who comes in and outshines every player in each area.
>
you said that for a powergamer being powerful at one thing means being powerful at everything.
>>yup, AT me, u sure as hell ain't listening to either of us. . .
>
>Yeah, maybe I'm tired, or maybe it is the talking in circles that I've been
>doing.
>
>Sparx
>
>
try keeping track of your argument. .
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 18:00:05 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: Happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
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At 02:14 AM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>if you'd left the whole conversation in place it would be obvious to anybody-
>>you said something along the lines of :
>>
>>"player X cannon say thing Y because of npc Z"
>>
>>and i said:
>>
>>"WTF?"
>
>If I left the whole conversation in place it would take me weeks to scroll
>through now. Point being, I'm not, maybe that is why I'm repeating myself
>so much.
>
>
you're not repeating yourself- your denying you said things you did.
>>look at the statement i made above- these are your words! you asserted that
>the npc existed to prove the pc wasn't the best.
>
>You mean these words, ">Ok, let's forget about Force because I think he is
>muddling our
>>>conversation. He would not show people up. He is there as background of
>>>the world." Yeah, that says to me he is to prove to the PC he isn't the best.
>
no the statement I made- you introduced him stating he was the most powerful tk, and you did thins deliberatley.
>>erm, yeah, that's what you mean. .. you stated this based on the 'powwer
>player' rationale, as it moved into 'good at one thing territory' i'm
>keeping track of my argumanet, please keep track of your own.
>
>Never changed my arguement, just misunderstood is all.
>
yes you did.
>>>Well, as this thread has proven, you can't say End of Discussion and
>>>actually have it happen. This is even more true, when someone is trying to
>>>defend the right to their character design.
>>>
>>
>>no, it is true- you're the gm, you word is law. THIS is a disgussion of
>peers, THAT
>>is a basic tenant of roleplaying.
>
>My word is law, really? I guess, you have your players whipped into shape.
>Hehehe...Well, let me say this, my word is not law and fights among peers
>break out. I can say NO all I want, I could not allow a player to play a
>character but people aren't robots. You don't say NO and have them say oh,
>ok, gm said, no, that means no, I'll behave. Sheeah right.
>
this is typical! you are the one trying to out-do the players! you are the one limiting their options! i think everyone on the list would agree that the gm's word is final= it beats deus ex machinta crap like mr tk!
>>you have sucessfully abandoned your original argument. congratulations.
>
>No, I've never left it. I've just try to bring into light for you a little
>better.
>
>Sparx
>
>
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Stainless Steel Rat\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 97 10:53:03
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Oil Slick
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On 06 Sep 1997 22:57:56 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes:
>
>q> If you want a pure super-slick surface, try an Entangle with
>q> appropriate limitations and advantages.
>
>The problem with using Entangle for this is that a high Strength will get
>one out of it. No advantage changes this aspect of Entangle.
Yes, what's wrong with that? You just have the high-str individual
forcing his hands / feet / whatever into the substance beneath.
Example: Grond is fighting Ice Girl. Ice Girl creates a sheet of ice
underneath Grond and he falls over. Grond forces his claws into the
very rock beneath the ice, creating a handhold, and swings himself
clear. But Ice Girl has already had time to flee.
I suppose you could also do it with Gliding: Uncontrolled (optional),
AoE, UAO, Ranged, No Effect vs those standing still.
Change Environment is a good one, though.
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Telekinesis
Mail-Copies-To: never
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X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 07 Sep 1997 08:54:25 -0400
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "WGG" == William G Geiger <willggeiger@juno.com> writes:
WGG> I agree, although, see that Ming vase over there? If you try to pick
WGG> it up with TK BoECV, does said vase have a 0 ECV, or a not applicable
WGG> ECV, and can't be directly affected by such?
It has no Dexterity yet it has an effective DCV of 0; it has no Ego, but it
should still have an effective ECV of 0.
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Charset: noconv
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and
\ kept under refrigeration.
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 08:25:00 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: The pet NPC was (Re: Curbing the Power Gamer)
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>At 01:39 AM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>>three mays you copped out:
>>>
>>>you copped out of the rationale behind all disgussion 'there is no right'
>>
>>This is not a cop out. I am telling you that my way is right for my
>>players, my campaigns, my rulings. I am telling you it may be completely
>>wrong for you. Fine, so be it. So I'm suppose to say there is a right? I
>>just haven't seen your way yet?
>>
>>>
>>>you copped out of admiting the generalities of the pc's 'my players are
>>worse than yours'
>>
>>My players are no worse or no better than any other players. I know what
>>works for them and what doesn't and I use it.
>>
>>>
>>>you copped out of a challenge 'no mr player, here's a large, powerful npc
>>that says your wrong - despite the issue being abstract to the extreme and
>>not really requiring a solid ruling'
>>
>>Huh?
>>
>>>
>>>>>>No, in fact, I enjoy the fact that some players come to the table with a
>>new
>>>>>>character that has some experience prior to game play. I enjoy seeing
the
>>>>>>powerful character even. My statement was don't come to the table
thinking
>>>>>>you are the most powerful X because you probably aren't, come to the
table
>>>>>>to have fun and role play and be a team player.
>>>>
>>>>>what's wrong with thinkin that? IT'S A GAME! look, sorry, but this is
>>>>sounding a lot like a compeditive gm who want's the pc's to feel
inferior to
>>>>his creations. There is NO reason that feeling like yer pc is tough is EVER
>>>>going to cause problems in itself- if anything, you may be adopting a
>>>>compeditive attitude just as much as they are.
>>>>
>>>>What's wrong with thinking that you are better than everyone else you are
>>>>playing with you ask?
>>>
>>>
>>>IN ONE _GIVEN_ AREA!!
>>
>>NOTHING IN ONE GIVEN AREA!! WE AGREE HERE!! STOP IT!!
>so telekinesis isn't one area?
Oops. As I said it was tired last night approaching 2am and after working
an 8 hour day. That should be NOTHING!! As in nothing is wrong with them
having one good given area. WE AGREE!! HERE!! STOP IT!!
>power gamers try to be good at everything. 'pro's' try to be good at one
thing. The twain only meet when gm's label them simmilar.
And I know the difference there. Never said I have. I have never labled a
person a power gamer, my gaming group has on more than one occasion. Since
the majority rules and 5 or 6 people come to me complaining about one
individual, what would you label him? Just really annoying?
Sparx
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 08:31:53 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
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>At 01:59 AM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>Well, yeah. Right answer? I don't know what am I suppose to say to that.
>>Does that make them the perfect or valid hero? In your mind, yes. In my
>>mind, the fireman who saves a dog from a burning building is every bit the
hero.
>>
>
>power realistic, NOT heroic realistic!
And I was talking heroics while you are talking realistics. So really I
guess we weren't talking the same convesation there at all.
>>>go ahead and stop, but don't pretend it's because i'm not listening- i've
>>been listenig all bloody day and you're WRONG! you npc cannot be supported
>>by that rationale.
>>>If you like the npc, FINE.
>>>but don't pretend it goes beyond that.
>>
>>It does. WRONG would be defined here as not in accordance with your
>>thoughts I gather. Fine, I'm wrong.
>>
>>
>>
>
>so anything disagreeing with you get this crap? i PROVED MY CASE! i have
argued the point, useing logic, you have done nothing of the sort. If you
didn't want to discuss it, why mention it?
Not at all. I've just learned that your logic is defined by your own
standards. A misunderstanding on either you or my part turns into me not
being logical. Late night typing turns me into slush, maybe I shouldn't
have aruged with you then, but you were there online. On top of this, it
seems more to me you are arguing for me, telling me when I'm thinking or
saying in more than one occassion. It may have been how you interpreted me,
but when I say, "No, I wasn't saying that." You take it the wrong way. I
don't know why I mention things on this list at some points and times.
There are some really great people out on it, there are some good ideas
floating around. I come here to share those ideas and enjoy myself. But on
more than one occasion, I've seen and been ripped apart my people in threads
that won't stop simply because I or another differ from someone in thought.
It doesnt' bother me. Like I said, I come here to share ideas with others.
Those that do, I feel we both benefit, those that already know it all, don't
need me.
Sparx
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 08:35:47 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
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>At 02:06 AM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>>>I recall saying my NPCs never
>>>>outshine my PCs
>>>
>>>apart from when you specifically design them to do so, as you SAID you did
>>with the force-tk-guy?
>>
>>Wrong, Force existed long before this player along with nearly 100 other
>>NPCs that populate by campaign. I guess I just have a lot of pets.
>>
>
>despite you saying that 'npc X is here so pc Y can't say Z'?
Seems you want me to say player Z ok, "NPC X exists, so PLAYER Y can't come
to my table thinking he is the best Z. He can Z all he wants." Clearer for
you?
>
>>>>if anything they come to the PCs for help even if they are
>>>>more powerful in SOME areas.
>>>
>>>yes- and those are the areas that count. You already stated your assupption
>>that
>>>'powerful at one thing' leads to a power gamer
>>
>>Wrong again. I have stated many times over that I have tons of average
>>players who specialize their characters in one area. The power gamer is the
>>person who comes in and outshines every player in each area.
>>
>
>you said that for a powergamer being powerful at one thing means being
powerful at everything.
I said, that I based this on what? MY PLAYERS. How hard is this for you to
understand. I'm not coming up with this off the top of my head. I've been
watching various players for nearly 10 years. I've been learning this stuff
through experience. They equate being powerful with being powerful at
everything, YES, they do. I do not, nor have I ever said, being good at one
thing means being powerful at everything. I have even mentioned various
other characters that specialized in various fields and never even once
claimed they were power gamers.
>>>yup, AT me, u sure as hell ain't listening to either of us. . .
>>
>>Yeah, maybe I'm tired, or maybe it is the talking in circles that I've been
>>doing.
>try keeping track of your argument. .
Why bother, when you are so good at telling me what I've said.
Sparx
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 08:42:30 -0500 (CDT)
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From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
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>At 02:14 AM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>>if you'd left the whole conversation in place it would be obvious to
anybody-
>>>you said something along the lines of :
>>>
>>>"player X cannon say thing Y because of npc Z"
>>>
>>>and i said:
>>>
>>>"WTF?"
>>
>>If I left the whole conversation in place it would take me weeks to scroll
>>through now. Point being, I'm not, maybe that is why I'm repeating myself
>>so much.
>>
>>
>
>you're not repeating yourself- your denying you said things you did.
I'm denying saying things you said, I've said.
>
>>>look at the statement i made above- these are your words! you asserted that
>>the npc existed to prove the pc wasn't the best.
>>
>>You mean these words, ">Ok, let's forget about Force because I think he is
>>muddling our
>>>>conversation. He would not show people up. He is there as background of
>>>>the world." Yeah, that says to me he is to prove to the PC he isn't the
best.
>>
>
>no the statement I made- you introduced him stating he was the most
powerful tk, and you did thins deliberatley.
Actually, he has never been introduced. Except, on this list. So I guess
that rules that out.
>>>erm, yeah, that's what you mean. .. you stated this based on the 'powwer
>>player' rationale, as it moved into 'good at one thing territory' i'm
>>keeping track of my argumanet, please keep track of your own.
>>
>>Never changed my arguement, just misunderstood is all.
>>
>
>yes you did.
>
>
>>>>Well, as this thread has proven, you can't say End of Discussion and
>>>>actually have it happen. This is even more true, when someone is trying to
>>>>defend the right to their character design.
>>>>
>>>
>>>no, it is true- you're the gm, you word is law. THIS is a disgussion of
>>peers, THAT
>>>is a basic tenant of roleplaying.
>>
>>My word is law, really? I guess, you have your players whipped into shape.
>>Hehehe...Well, let me say this, my word is not law and fights among peers
>>break out. I can say NO all I want, I could not allow a player to play a
>>character but people aren't robots. You don't say NO and have them say oh,
>>ok, gm said, no, that means no, I'll behave. Sheeah right.
>>
>
>this is typical! you are the one trying to out-do the players! you are the
one limiting their options! i think everyone on the list would agree that
the gm's word is final= it beats deus ex machinta crap like mr tk!
Wait, according to you, I'm trying to outdue the players, while you are just
trying to subdue the players. What is worst? My campaign world that
explains why you can't be the most powerful at somethings versus others or
a GM who says, because I'm GOD YOU CAN'T DO IT. THE GM HAS SPOKEN. THE
GREAT AND POWERFUL GM HAS SPOKEN, DO NOT LOOK BEHIND THE CURTAIN. Because
behind that curtain is still a normal person who some might listen to, but
not everyone, and if everyone listens to every word from a GM as law, teach
me how, I'm waiting and listening.
Sparx
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From: John Doe <juan@henge.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 07:46:32 -0600
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Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
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Jones (happyelfie)
I think you and I are talking apples and oranges because every time I
mention the CHARACTER and the player's actions, you jump right into the
powers involved and a sort-of fakey realism test. "Well, in a realistic
world, he _WOULD_ hide and snipe." "Well, in a realistic world, he would
have no friggin' powers! Duh!"
>> snip Mr Teek story
>>Then this guy tried to hide on a building far away and teek at the bad guys.
>>Very "realistic?" no.
>
>actually this is extremly accurate- haven't you ever heard of artilery?
this is how a psycic would fight, why would a normal human stand around in
squishing distance of a brick?
>it was- if you want heroic behaviour, require that all pc's have it as a
psyc lim.
Extremely accurate? Please point me to the superheroes who do this... They
don't. SuperHERO game. NOT a Wild Cards game. Not a superhumans who kill
game. Superhero game. If I want heroic behavior, I'll play a superHERO
game. Duh.
> snip Mr Teek crows over "saving our bacon."
>was it player or pc speaking? honestly?
Considering Mr. Teek was hiding three miles away on a tall building, having
always "helped out" from a distance and without introductions, um, it was
the player, who was in the room with us.
>Then you see a player wanting to play an ultra- powerful dude-
>bulletproof, fast, brutal, this guy is WAY more likely to suvive the
fights, and hence a more valid superhuman. . . .
Ya wohl, mein herr. Un Uberman. A superhuman of death. Not a more valid
SUPERHERO! Fine with me if you play killers of death and Teek ninjas but
don't call them superheros or use "realistic" concerns to justify them.
Something tells me you wince at all those "soppy" comics where the
good-hearted but lowered-power guys come through because of moral quality or
cooperation. Image comics fan, maybe?
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford)
Subject: Re: Body Drain (was Curbing the Power Gamer was ( Is there a need for SPD?))
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 14:40:14 GMT
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On Sat, 06 Sep 1997 21:03:43 +0600, you wrote:
>>
> Yes, it all comes back together...
> Mr. Lansford, how do you treat Body Drains and Transfers? Can they
>kill? Use the "optional" rules in Hero System Almanac I (Champions III) or
>a house rule variant?
> I'm sorry this is off subject, but I don't want to let this go. : P
I rule that an attack that reduces BODY, whether it requires healing
or if it recovers (like a Drain or Transfer), can kill when the
negative BODY equals the starting value of the character. I use this
to simulate disease based powers like Plague of the Seven Horsemen, or
exotic "life draining" powers like Selene. Having a BODY
drain/transfer kill is the only real reasonable way to simulate either
one of these two types of attacks.
I've tended to continue using the Champions III negative value rules
for what happens below zero for characteristics because I find them
very workable. Such things as negative intelligence, negative
strength, and negative Body all make sense to me and the PC's in my
campaign have a healthy respect for villains with such draining
powers.
John Lansford
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 07 Sep 97 15:12:00 GMT
Subject: Re: Speed
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h > > 1rst, the gateway-style teleport. I feel that that should be based
h > > on an area effect, because objects must be pushed through or go
h > through
h > > under their own power.
This was handled in Mystic Masters, as I remember it was a hex effect.
Of course it could also be an F/X, but if there's a chance of something
comming through from the other side, or someone going through on thier
own, the AE works. To make it effect anyone going in, the moment they
go in, you have to buy an odd, Continuous, Teleport, but oh well.
h > > 2nd, 'slippery' entangles. The greased floor schtick isn't handled
h > > at *all* well.
There are a number of solutions to this one. Entangle being one of the
less workable. I've also seen AE, knockback-only attacks, DEX or SPD
drains, running drains, movement powers useable against others, AE Martial
Throws (really), etc. The problem with these is that they don't represent
the effect too well, and they are often too expensive or too effective.
When you think about it, high DEX characters should be able to negotiate
the old slippery floor without too much trouble, but with many of the attempts
being strong or massive is what defends you, while others just plain work
automatically.
You'd think that if you came accross an ordinary, unbought, patch of ice,
the GM would call for a DEX roll, with penalties if you're going really
fast (non-combat velocities). Since most supers have at least a 13- DEX
roll, this really isn't a terribly powerful effect. Hmmm minor effect
on combat by making the floor slippery. Sounds like a Change Environment.
As long as you don't expect too much from it, CE works fine.
h > > 3rd, Flash effects, note there are *no* modifiers for ambient
h > > conditions (a flash in full sunlight really *isn't* going to work
h > too well.) BTW, since the 4th edition rule-change on pricing, does
h > *anybody* use flash attacks anymore?
Flash doesn't have to be a flash of bright light - there's no reason
for a pepper spray to work better at night, for instance. A flash which
really depended on realtive darkness could have a limitation. A 'standard'
bright light flash might lose a die in bright sunlight and gain a die in
near darkness per 'Special Effects.'
Since the 4th Ed opened up the possibility of Flashing other senses than
sight, I've seen a lot of creative uses of the power.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 97 11:33:08 -0400
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
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Jeremiah Driscoll jdriscol@vt.edu 9/6/97 9:03 PM
>Okay, let's go to Sparx's example of Force, a powerful NPC TK. Okay, he has
>created a game world for the characters to play in. Let's say it's pretty
>darn detailed. Thus, it *probably* took quite a bit of time. As part of
>this elaborate game world, he created Force. And Force is defined as a
>certain power level.
>Now, a PC comes up with a TK. He's pretty good, as written, but the
>*Player* says, "My PC is the most powerful TK in the world, so no one is
>better, okay?" The GM says, "um, no. There's this NPC *WHO IS ALREADY
>ESTABLISHED* in the game world, *WHO HAS ALREADY ENCOUNTERED OTHER PCs* who
>is more powerful than the PC you have written. PLUS, I can't guarantee that
>he's the best. What if Player 'B' comes up with a more powerful TKer?"
>To which the Player says, "But he won't, because I'm the most powerful...
>just tell him so. And write out your NPC (who has already had a drastic
>effect on the world)."
Actually, it has been stated that the PCs have NEVER encountered Force.
Consiquently, it shouldn't be that difficult write him out. Further,
reducing the power of the NPC shouldn't have that much counter effect on
the game world. If he's had a "drastic effect", which Sparx certainly
doesn't
seem to be saying, that doesn't have to translate to a high power level,
just a good nudge at the right time.
As to the second case, where Player B comes in, that's fine. "You WERE
the most
powerful but my world's hardly static so that may or may not remain the
case."
Admittedly, I'm not particularly scared of powerful PCs though. :)
PAX,
John
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 97 11:33:10 -0400
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
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Legionair@aol.com Legionair@aol.com 9/6/97 11:56 PM
>Again, I might be in the minority, but I feel that a player's character
>concept is more important than how many points were used. If there is a
>character a player wants to play, that happens to be well balanced, then I
>could not care less whether the player used one hundred points or one
>thousand.
>
>That being the case, not all of the character's in my games can be conviently
>slotted like that. Diversity is what keeps the game interesting.
Just for the record, I, for one, agree. However, you do have to be
careful
when it comes to the specific players you have when this is the approach.
Some players will build well balanced, well thought out 1000 pt characters
and not, in general, be a problem. Others will build 100 point characters
with a 900 point RKA saying "but it;s Cyclops!" It sounds like you deal
more
with the former and jones (aka happyelf :)) deals more with the latter.
PAX,
John
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 97 11:33:12 -0400
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
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Happyelf! jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 9/7/97 1:52 AM
>>Fine, great, I love a good fight as well as anyone
>>else but there is more to role playing than fighting. Why would Force turn
>>up to pound someone else who claims the title? As I could explain if you
>>were in my campaign and actually met Force, he wouldn't care if you claimed
>>it. Go ahead.
>
>then why all the mess about "a pc can't say they're the best because of
>npc X" rot?
A PC can say anything they like, a PLAYER will be incorrect, in Sparx
campaign,
if they say "my PC is the best due to the mechanic." At least that
appears to
be what Sparxx is saying.
PAX,
John
Subject: Re: The pet NPC was (Re: Curbing the Power Gamer)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 97 11:33:14 -0400
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
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Happyelf! jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 9/7/97 2:06 AM
>>Let's see. It causes tension between players,
>>dislike, outright arguements, a breakdown of the game to mechanics, and ends
>>a game and has ended some friendships over petty stuff.
>
>Now, competition between players does that, being good at something is
>bound to happen- we are talking about superhumans here. who causes that
>(player competition)? does this have to do with the issue at hand? no. It
>has to do with bad players. Bad players have all sorts of issues, and the
>idea is to look at them, not limit game concepts so that all they can get
>their hands on are genre-limited straightjackets.
These tensions have nothing to do with "bad players", they're human
nature.
We spend most of our live competing in one form or another, including most
"games". It is highly unrealistic to expect that human beings will quit
competeing just because they are playing an RPG. At best, the players
will
cooperate seeing that a group competing with the outside world has a
better
chance that an individual, kinda like life. If you've got a group of
players
you _think_ aren't competeing with each other, your deluding yourself, or
they
are being very subtile. But if they are human, they are competing.
>>I don't know, maybe it is me, I enjoy role playing because it is fun,
>>challenging, and there is a risk to my character. I wouldn't want to play
>>if I was guaranteed a win everytime.
>please stop with this rubbish about roleplaying. Anything involving power
>does not automatically preclude roleplaying- unless your trying to
>oversimplify the argument?
I agree with jones (:)) here. Power does not preclude role-playing.
However
it can, in many instances, make for increased tensions dependant on your
specific players.
>once again- csomeone good at TK can have weakness elsewhere- may veen have
>NCM. But you keep linking 'good at one thing' to 'good at everything'.
This does appear to be the weak spot in Sparx arguement. However, he
appears
to be dealing with one PLAYER who feels that "best at X" doesn't required
any
reduced effectiveness at anything else. This can/does cause problems.
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 97 11:33:16 -0400
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
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Happyelf! jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 9/7/97 2:11 AM
>At 12:43 AM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote:t talking about 'total power', i'm
>talking aobut 'being best at X'. . .
>>
>>The problem here, is that most, and I say this with my past players in mind,
>>powergamers will make being best at X equal total power. If you ask how by
>>now, then you haven't been reading all of my posts. Take it easy and talk
>>at you later.
>>
>>Sparx
>
>I have READ your posts, and there is a big fat GAP between being goood at
>TK and being a "god" like the teenage mutant psycic martial artist. You
>simply assume that anypowerful pc will be good at anything DESPITE the fact
>that in a points based game with equal points equavilent spending ratio
>'twixt powers, skill, ect. and equivalent points-efficiancy this is about 2
>steps from just plain IMPOSSABLE!
In all fairness, I've seen players who could nearly triple active points
by
hitting all the break points and putting together just the right set of
limitations, etc. Point based _helps_ limit the PC as God problem, but it
doesn't stop it entirely, unfortunately.
PAX,
John
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 97 11:33:18 -0400
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
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Happyelf! jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 9/7/97 2:21 AM
>>Well, big problem here in this conversation. I'm talking about the player
>>declaring his character the best X due to mechanics and asking the GM to
>>make sure that mechanically speaking he is. As I have said in an earlier
>>post if he wishes to claim to be the best X the entire game he is more than
>>welcome to. There is a big difference in claiming and actually attempting
>>to be, and that is where I'm thinking our conversation and split.
>
>i think you miss the point- you can't use an npc (campaign concept) to
>disprove a statement about mechanics (rules concept) any more than the gm
>(rules concept) can talk to a pc (campaign concept).
>
>Hence I think it's pretty clear why i made the assumption that i did.
This is a little nuts, jones. An example of mechanic X imbedded in an
NPC can
most certainly disprove a statement about said mechanic. I say, "my TK
at
75 STR is the most powerful TK you, the GM, will allow." The GM says,
"sorry,
but Force already has a 100 STR TK." Pretty much proves the point.
>>Not really, just give it out equally. If I have 3 bricks playing in a game,
>>each at different str. levels, it would be fair of me to say, you all have
>>the POTENTIAL (candy) to become the strongest in the campaign.
>
>but what if they talk about 'strongest in party'?
Even then, from a _player_ perspective, the _players_ would have to be
comfortable with this. The GM sould not be limiting Bricks B & C just
because A wants to be the strongest. I'd think you'd be against the
arbitrary limiting of all the players except A? Remember the _player_ is
saying most powerful X, and intends his PC to be the yard stick. Hence,
once most powerful, always most powerful, it's "concept".
PAX,
John
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 97 11:33:20 -0400
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
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Happyelf! jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 9/7/97 2:48 AM
>>I recall saying my NPCs never outshine my PCs
>
>apart from when you specifically design them to do so, as you SAID you did
>with the force-tk-guy?
No he did NOT! He said their is another TK baased character whose TK is
stronger than the PCs. He said that character is in another part of the
world and has NEVER interacted with the PCs. If there is NO interaction,
it's very difficult to be "outshining" anyone. Please try to be
reasonable.
>>if anything they come to the PCs for help even if they are
>>more powerful in SOME areas.
>
>yes- and those are the areas that count. You already stated your
>assupption that 'powerful at one thing' leads to a power gamer
He stated that some of his PLAYERS equate the two and he has to stop
them.
He has NEVER stated that power necessarily leads to "all powerful" in all
cases or even in the cases of NPCs. Further he has stated that NPC are
NEVER all powerful and have to come to the PCs for help periodically.
PAX,
John
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 97 11:33:22 -0400
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
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Happyelf! jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 9/7/97 3:51 AM
>>It does. WRONG would be defined here as not in accordance with your
>>thoughts I gather. Fine, I'm wrong.
>
>so anything disagreeing with you get this crap? i PROVED MY CASE! i have
>argued the point, useing logic, you have done nothing of the sort. If you
>didn't want to discuss it, why mention it?
You really haven't "proven" anything. Sparx is talking about specific
problems he has seen. Your saying that he never saw them, which is,
frankly, a little dumb. Sparx has said that allowing someone to be the
"best at X" and "equivilent to better than the other PCs at everything
else" is highly disruptive. You don't actually disagree with this do you?
Unfortunately, this discussion is also a bit broken, as the tendancy to
get
"best at X" and "equivilent to better than the other PCs at everything
else"
is being mixed with "can a player just have "best at X". Maybe the
discussion
should be re-routed into "is it dangerous to allow average players a
chaaracter
with a "most Powerful" concept. I think Sparx is pointing out a
legitimate
concern reguarding this, namely that power gamers will abuse it (like
everything
else). However some other views would be nice, maybe experieces with
non-power
gamers who have successfully used "most powerful" concepts?
PAX,
John
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 97 11:33:23 -0400
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
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Happyelf! jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 9/7/97 3:54 AM
>you said that for a powergamer being powerful at one thing means being
>powerful at everything.
I'd say this is a pretty accurate definition, myself. It's the reason
high point characters and even relitivvely powerful characters don't
necessarily need to be called Power Gamers, IMHO. After all you can be
the best in one thing, or even a tight goup of things, without trying to
be the best at EVERYTHING.
PAX,
John
From: Legionair@aol.com
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 12:14:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers
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In a message dated 97-09-07 11:31:41 EDT, asahoshi@nr.infi.net writes:
<< Just for the record, I, for one, agree. However, you do have to be
careful when it comes to the specific players you have when this is the
approach. Some players will build well balanced, well thought out 1000 pt
characters and not, in general, be a problem. Others will build 100 point
characters with a 900 point RKA saying "but it;s Cyclops!" It sounds like
you deal more with the former and jones (aka happyelf :)) deals more with the
latter.
PAX,
John >>
Agreed, on all points.
In one of my current games a PC wanted to play a Daxamite (think Mon'El or
Superman, with only minor differences). At first it seemed like a disaster,
but I had the player send me a background and personality write up first.
From there I saw plenty of plot devices and ideas that I could use. Enough
that it far out weighed the potential for game corruption. On top of this, I
was fairly familar with the player as well and knew that he wouldn't take the
character too far.
The difference here was that the character concept *ITSELF* was enough of a
disadvantage to balance the cost of creating the characters. I'm not talking
about having 300 points in disads or having a terrible life story or anything
like that... Just that the way in which the player was planning to play the
character would place enough limitations on the character that it would
balance out.
I also play fast and furious with the rules. The way I see it, the rules
were designed as a framework, not a cage. The framework is the basis from
which all the players and the GM view the gameworld. Arguing over the
nuances of the verbage for the rules only reinforces the cage.
The GM and the players should have an understanding in this way, so that the
players do trust the GM... In other words, if I think it's dramatically
important to have the bad guy's flunkies surprise and overpower the PCs, then
they'll go along with it. They don't go along with it because I said so,
just because they trust that I don't do that sort of thing lightly and
because the rules bend both ways. If I cheat on behalf of the storyline then
I cheat equally as much on behalf of the PCs.
If I need the PCs to be surprised and overtaken, when the really should not
be, then I come up with a good reason why this happened ahead of time. As
well, I plan to let the PCs bend the rules back later on by doing something
they shouldn't have been able to do... Just like in the comics that we're
trying to emulate, certain things *have* to happen for the plot. Then, at
the end of the story, the characters always manage to do something you didn't
expect, something that wasn't written in the character sheet. Be it an EB at
a crucial moment... Knocking the bad guy out with a quick punch... etc.
etc.
The idea is to keep the game rolling, keep the story interesting, make sure
that all the players have an equal amount of input into the situation
(whether they are playing the above mentioned Daxamite, a Darkstar spy, or
the Combat Medic). The point of all of it is to have fun, not to argue until
the cows come home.
I don't mean to sound like I stress the storyline/plotline more than I stress
the PCs actions in it. The storyline is actually less important than the
PCs, but not by much. I just keep my plots and subplots open enough that I
can shuffle them around and exchange them without much fuss.
As a bad D&D example, if the party reachs a fork in the road and I want them
to take the right side, but instead they take the left, I don't blow a
gasket. I reach further down the road, to a different fork, and make that
fork the left side. Eventually, as they move along, I provide a different
red herring to follow which eventually leads them back to the storyline I had
intended.
Jason
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 13:10:56 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: A Few Simple Requests...
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With the volume being generated over the whole 'Curbing the Power Gamer'
thread, I'd like to make a couple of simple requests:
1.) please trim them to the absolute minimum of reposted material. Don't
repost fifteen lines of material and reply with a single line.
2.) please don't feel you _need_ to reply to everything. It is not that
important to 'get the last word' (this complaint arises from about 15
messages from each of the 3 main participants in the argument, all fairly
long and generated within the last 12 hours)
3.) please don't degenerate into antagonism
4.) please try to decide if you're getting anywhere - if not, try to agree
to disagree (I say this because the powergamer is a universal game problem -
sure, it's relevant to the champs list, but the best place for the
discussion is rec.games.frp.misc...)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Guns-ablazin', fu-fightin', spell-chuckin', rubber-monster-stompin' ACTION!"
-John comments on Feng Shui
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 13:29:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Telekinesis
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From: willggeiger@juno.com (William G Geiger)
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Sounds good enough to me. Thanks, I had been wondering about that for a
long time.
Aloha, WillGGeiger@juno.com
On 07 Sep 1997 08:54:25 -0400 Stainless Steel Rat
<ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "WGG" == William G Geiger <willggeiger@juno.com> writes:
>
>WGG> I agree, although, see that Ming vase over there? If you try to
>pick
>WGG> it up with TK BoECV, does said vase have a 0 ECV, or a not
>applicable
>WGG> ECV, and can't be directly affected by such?
>
>It has no Dexterity yet it has an effective DCV of 0; it has no Ego,
>but it
>should still have an effective ECV of 0.
>
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>--
>Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball
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> \ kept under refrigeration.
>
>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 14:01:51 -0400
Subject: Re: A Few Simple Requests...
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From: willggeiger@juno.com (William G Geiger)
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Aloha, WillGGeiger@juno.com
On Sun, 7 Sep 1997 13:10:56 -0400 (EDT) jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron
Prins) writes: <snip>4.) please try to decide if you're getting anywhere
- if not, try to
>agree
>to disagree (I say this because the powergamer is a universal game
>problem -
>sure, it's relevant to the champs list, but the best place for the
>discussion is rec.games.frp.misc...)
Or maybe off-lists entirely, sent just to the individual e-mail
addresses. Most of the powergamer thread is now threadbare.
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 16:35:31 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
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>Okay, let's go to Sparx's example of Force, a powerful NPC TK. Okay, he has
>created a game world for the characters to play in. Let's say it's pretty
>darn detailed. Thus, it *probably* took quite a bit of time. As part of
>this elaborate game world, he created Force. And Force is defined as a
>certain power level.
>Now, a PC comes up with a TK. He's pretty good, as written, but the
>*Player* says, "My PC is the most powerful TK in the world, so no one is
>better, okay?" The GM says, "um, no. There's this NPC *WHO IS ALREADY
>ESTABLISHED* in the game world, *WHO HAS ALREADY ENCOUNTERED OTHER PCs* who
>is more powerful than the PC you have written. PLUS, I can't guarantee that
>he's the best. What if Player 'B' comes up with a more powerful TKer?"
>To which the Player says, "But he won't, because I'm the most powerful...
>just tell him so. And write out your NPC (who has already had a drastic
>effect on the world)."
>
>so... NO.
>
>I think this is what Sparx was saying. A game world takes *A DAMN LOT* of
>effort. I know. And I like to keep a *damn* sight of continuity in my
>games. So tossing Force wouldn't be an option for myself either.
>
>I hope *someone* gets something from this. I'd like to see a reply each
>from Michael Jones and Sparx to this to see what they think... but... heh,
>I don't control them. : )
>
>- Jerry
>who has just GMed 6 hours of Champions, and has been reading E-mail for the
>past hour.
>"I'm done, man." "What, you finished your turn?" "No, man. I'm done."
>
Thanks. Finally it seems I'm understood. This is what I mean. That is all
I ever met. It seems things have been misunderstood and arguements have
started from such. I was wondering if I was muddled or not clear about my
meaning, but thanks for making it a bit easier to see.
Sparx
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 16:36:49 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: The pet NPC was (Re: Curbing the Power Gamer)
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>At 05:03 PM 9/7/97 +1000, Michael Jones wrote:
>>>>>Let's see. It causes tension between players,
>>>>>dislike, outright arguements, a breakdown of the game to mechanics, and
>ends
>>>>>a game and has ended some friendships over petty stuff.
>>>>
>>>>Now, competition between players does that, being good at something is
>>>bound to happen-
>>>>we are talking about superhumans here. who causes that(player competition)?
>>>does this have to do with the issue at hand? no. It has to do with bad
>>>players. Bad players have all sorts of issues, and the idea is to look at
>>>them, not limit game concepts so that all they can get their hands on are
>>>genre-limited straightjackets.
>>>
>>>So now, you are calling my players bad? Hey! Only I can do that. It has
>>>everything to do with the issue at hand since all I've been talking about
>>>since I've started my conversation is my players and my experiences with
>them.
>>>
>>
>>your talking about things players do wrong, but acting like it's a problem
>with charactr creation. it isn't. .
>>
>But aren't the Players responsible for character generation? Nowhere in the
>entire discussion have I heard Sparx say anything about a problem with the
>*game mechanics* of character creation.
>If the players are causing problems during character creation because of
>their attitudes, then it would be a problem *with the players* _and_ *with
>character creation*. Right?
>
>- Jerry
Yes, that is what I have been saying. Never did I say the system was messed
up or the mechanics. I love Champions as a game. I have some bad players
and that is where this conversation is stemming from.
Sparx
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 18:39:44 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: Fractional SPD
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On Tue, 2 Sep 1997, Curtis Gibson wrote:
> > An idea I toyed with re: fractional SPD was to allow someone with a
> > half-mark of SPD to move as though he had twice that SPD, but only every
> > other Phase.
[...]
> Something use in my campaigns to good effect; buying activating speed.
> The character rolls in 12 (or post 12) and if the speed activates they
> run at the higher speed the next turn.
>
> It is especially appriopriate for martial artists types who train thier
> speed up. Start at an 8- then 11- then 14- then normal. As a point
> comparison an 11- point of speed cost the same as a half point, and
> (statistically) runs the same as the example above.
Except that somebody with 11- Activation will get an extra action over 60%
of the time, whereas the half point will only yield the extra action half
the time. (Aside: why did they make 11- be the -1 level rather than 10-?)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 16:42:16 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
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>Happyelf! jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 9/7/97 1:52 AM
>
>>>Fine, great, I love a good fight as well as anyone
>>>else but there is more to role playing than fighting. Why would Force turn
>>>up to pound someone else who claims the title? As I could explain if you
>>>were in my campaign and actually met Force, he wouldn't care if you claimed
>>>it. Go ahead.
>>
>>then why all the mess about "a pc can't say they're the best because of
>>npc X" rot?
>
>A PC can say anything they like, a PLAYER will be incorrect, in Sparx
>campaign,
>if they say "my PC is the best due to the mechanic." At least that
>appears to
>be what Sparxx is saying.
>
>PAX,
>John
Yes, I have no problem with a PC that runs around my campaign world say,
"I'm the strongest." I have a problem if the player of that character
believes it and throws a fit when someone stronger comes along.
Sparx
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 18:47:04 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
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On Tue, 2 Sep 1997, Robert Challenger wrote:
> jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
> >
> > hows about just having 'actions' equal to speed, like # of attacks? when
> > someone wants an action, whoever has the highest number of actions
> > left gos, dex deciding ties?
> >
>
> The reason against this would be that the higher speed character could
> wait till the lower speeds use all their 'actions' and defend against
> them, and then get basically free time where the others cant react.
Err... they can do that _now_, can't they?
> [I dont think i explained that very well, so ill try to use an example]
>
> We have Speed 6 Man, vs UberSpeed 4
>
> Action S4 S6
> 1 Attack Dodge
> 2 Attack Dodge
> 3 Attack Dodge
> 4 Attack Dodge
>
> Suddenly, Uber4 has no action left to defend himself or anything.
>
> 5 looks worried Attack
> 6 really worried Haymaker
>
> I think ive explained myself now.
<shrug> Try it under current rules:
Segment S4 S6
2 Delay
3 Attack Dodge/Block
4 looks worried Attack
6 Attack Dodge/Block
8 Delay
9 Attack Dodge/Block
10 really worried Haymaker
12 Attack Dodge/Block
Not much of a difference, really.
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 16:50:04 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: A Few Simple Requests...
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Actually, I agree, but this is a good place to take up a conversation of the
such. True some are one liners and they are annoying and I'm as much to
blame as anyone. The conversational nature of the last 12 hours is due to
the fact that HappyElf and I were on at the same time and pretty much just
responding to e-mail one right after another. I was tempted to take it
off-lists, but felt others may or may not want to put in their input.
Without being insulting, it is always possible, to simply not read a thread
you don't like. I realize some get tired of deleting and receiving e-mail
as I often do, but when I come across a thread that no longer interest me, I
just stay out of it. On the other hand though, at the time of the
conversational e-mail I was wondering to myself, "Wouldn't it be simpler in
a chat room or through ICQ?" Does anyone know of a Champions chat area? Do
members of this list have ICQ? On the flip side of this though, through the
e-mail it allows both sides the ability to go back and read old letters and
give others a chance to enter the conversation without looking for specific
chat room X or hoping ICQ is up and running or members are about. Just a
thought. Take it easy and talk at you later.
Sparx
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 16:51:24 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Fractional SPD
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Trevor Barrie wrote:
[....]
> Except that somebody with 11- Activation will get an extra action over 60%
> of the time, whereas the half point will only yield the extra action half
> the time. (Aside: why did they make 11- be the -1 level rather than 10-?)
This is because the mathematical break point is 10, but being a
'hero' game, the players are accorded a small bonus; the 11- roll plus
one higher 'half-point' (half of 11- rounds up to 6-) for those cases
where it counts. It's just like the concept that seldom do you see an
OAF actually rendered unuseable HALF the tim by the GM. It's simply a
convention of the Herioc genre....
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Oil Slick
Mail-Copies-To: never
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes:
q> Example: Grond is fighting Ice Girl. Ice Girl creates a sheet of ice
q> underneath Grond and he falls over. Grond forces his claws into the
q> very rock beneath the ice, creating a handhold, and swings himself
q> clear. But Ice Girl has already had time to flee.
What is wrong with that is Seeker should be able to slide right across the
ice with little problem, DEX machine that he is. If you do it with
Entangle he cannot.
q> I suppose you could also do it with Gliding: Uncontrolled (optional),
q> AoE, UAO, Ranged, No Effect vs those standing still.
UAO movement powers are a Bad Thing, because it is difficult to clearly
define a reasonably common defense or set of defenses against them.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Oil Slick
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>>>>> "TB" == Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> writes:
TB> Umm, Rat... Change Environment doesn't _have_ different levels of
TB> effect.
Yeah, it does, though not in the way you think I am thinking. :)
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 01:59:49 +0000
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions)
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net
Priority: normal
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On 6 Sep 97 at 0:58, Stainless Steel Rat <rati> wrote:
On 5 Sep 97 at 12:11, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> >>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
>
> >> An oil slick or sheet of ice does not cause most people to fall over
> >> every phase, not unless they are throwing caution to the wind.
>
> F> Really? Ever tried to fistfight on a sheet of wet ice? Care to bet
> F> you don't fall over constantly?
>
> I have walked across frozen ponds and lakes and not fallen over at all.
As have I.
> The difference between my example and yours is that I am being cautious,
> and you are not.
Exactly. Walking cautiously across ice is not combat. You are not
cautiously walking on ice when you are in combat, especially not
superheroic and/ or hand to hand combat. You are moving quickly,
even violently, often in unexpected directions, and must do so or
suffer combat penalties.
> Like any continuous AoE power, Change Environment affects one during each
> of one's action phases. Each phase one is not concentrating on maintaining
> one's balance, one must make a Dexterity roll or fall down; characters with
> Acrobatics do not need to roll. Or, for an area that is especially slick,
> Dexterity with a penalty or Acrobatics with none or a lesser penalty.
They fall down. Thus, they lose an attack roll, a half-phase to
stand, and are reduced to 1/2 DCV. All by a power described as having
_at most_ minor effects upon combat.
> F> Additionally, a sheet of ice has more than minor effects on cars and
> F> especially motorcycles.
>
> You've never seen ice motocross, have you. :) Seriously, though, I live in
> New England, and while icy roads are not an every day thing we have to deal
> with them frequently enough. If one keeps the speed down and is light on
> the brakes, one can drive on a sheet of ice.
I have driven a rear-wheel drive car with bald tires past people
spinning four wheels with chains on them. I know how to drive on ice.
A power which reduces a vehicle or character's movement by a
considerable amount isn't a minor power. Consider the Porsche in the
BBB. Able to do over 140 MPH. Do you honestly think that on the same
road it could safely do half that, if the road was a smooth, wet
sheet of ice?
That is a Drain of half the points in that car's movement. A
significant combat effect.
You make a big point about what can be done if you are slow and
careful. However, combat, especially superheroic combat, precludes
being slow and careful of your footing, unless you are willing to
significantly reduce your effectiveness. I submit that a _smooth,
wet_ sheet of ice will cause you to fall, barring special skills or
powers, unless you take these precautions:
No non-combat running.
1/2 speed combat running.
No wrestling, fistfights, Diving for Cover, Dodge, or melee
fighting.
No acrobatics.
1/2 DCV.
If they violate these rules, they need to make a DEX roll, or suffer
the following:
Lose this phase (you can't shoot straight while falling on your ass).
Be 1/2 DCV until next phase (prone).
Lose 1/2 of next phase (getting up).
This is not a minor effect.
Filksinger
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 01:59:49 +0000
Subject: Re: Vari-multi pools
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On 6 Sep 97 at 7:53, John Doe wrote:
> I think this is a really NEAT idea! It gives you the basic powers the world
> sees and allows the character to really "focus" his energies to do other
> things. Heck, in a way this is what certain Marvel characters have done
> when they used their "big gun" attack in extremis. (I've kicked the comics
> monkey for a coupla years, so excuse me if these examples are dated.) I
> think the Torch's Nova Blast might be a trade-in like the above, as might
> Nova's big Nova thingy.
Uh, no. The maximum size of one of these slots is the same as the
maximum size of a power in a normal Multipower or VPP. If it was big
enough to create the "Nova Blast" then you would just create a big
slot. If it wasn't, you'd have to add extra power to the slot from
outside, or make it independant. Neither of these requires the
variability of a VPP.
The purpose of my suggestion was to create a pool that allowed cosmic
level control on some powers in a VPP, but not all. Considering the
cost is actually fairly high for the effect, I consider it fairly
balanced.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 01:59:50 +0000
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
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On 7 Sep 97 at 16:48, Happyelf! wrote:
> At 01:17 AM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote:
<snip>
> >
> >What have I been saying that you don't understand me. I've been talking
> >about a powergamer who had a character that could DO everything the rest of
> >the team could do and then some, power wise and skill wise. I've been
> >saying how *I* disapprove of that. I've been saying I have NPCs that are
> >sometimes more powerful than characters but not always.
>
> and your rationale for one of these npc's was that a player said thei pc said they were the best at something.. .
No, he never said that was the _rational_ for the NPC, he simply said
that an NPC existed, who was presently the most powerful telekinetic,
whose power level exceeded the beginning maximum active points for an
attack power.
He never said what the rationale or purpose was for the character. He
certainly didn't say the character existed for the purpose of being
the best TK, and he most definitely did not say the purpose of the
character was to outshine or be better than the PCs.
<snip>
> >I recall saying my NPCs never
> >outshine my PCs
>
> apart from when you specifically design them to do so, as you SAID you did with the force-tk-guy?
He said nothing of the sort. He said that a PC couldn't be the most
powerful telekinetic because someone more powerful existed, he did
_not_ say that they were designed to outshine the PCs.
> >if anything they come to the PCs for help even if they are
> >more powerful in SOME areas.
>
> yes- and those are the areas that count. You already stated your assupption that
> 'powerful at one thing' leads to a power gamer
Actually, he did not say that 'powerful at one thing' leads to a
power gamer, he only said that a particular power gamer started by
pushing the limits in one thing and went on from there. Not the same
thing.
> >Sound familiar? Take it easy and talk at you
> >later.
> >
>
> yup, AT me, u sure as hell ain't listening to either of us. . .
Frankly, I'd say this statement applies more to you than to him. I
have seen him misunderstand you once or twice, and correct himself,
but I have seen no sign that you understand him at all.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 01:59:50 +0000
Subject: Re: Oil Slick
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On 6 Sep 97 at 22:57, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> That is why I say to use Change Environment, which also happens to be the
> one power in the book that can be used to "force" characters to make
> characteristic rolls. Change Environment: "fog" or "heavy rain" may
> require one to make periodic sight perception roll to navigate.
I'm beginning to see why we have been having problems with this
thread.
I have looked through my copy of the rules (BBB, first printing), and
they say _nothing_ about forcing characters to make characteristic
rolls. It specifically says that Change Environment "does not have
any direct effect upon combat. However, Change Environment can be
used to affect Power Limitations or character Disadvantages like
Susceptabilities." It also says (all emphasis mine), "_At the GM's
option_, Change Environment may have _slight_ effect on combat (small
minuses on PER rolls, OCVs, etc.), depending upon special effect and
the _exact_ circumstances."
In other words, Change Environment doesn't normally have _any_ effect
on combat. It can affect Limitations and Susceptabilities, but
neither one is necessary for a person to slip on oil or ice. It can
affect charactes in a _slight_ way (it cannot force a PER roll, but
can subtract from one, it cannot stop an attack or halve a DCV, but
it can give you a slightly reduced OCV or DCV), _only in very
particular circumstances.
The effects of ice or a combat-effective oil slick are too great for
the description in the book (a -2 to a roll on a repeat basis is less
significant than "forcing" a roll on a repeat basis), and are
certainly not limited to "exact circumstances", as the book requires.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 21:13:42 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Question on Images
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> > Eh? Touch _is_ a sense group. Both in real life and in
> > Champions.
>
> Uh, no, it isn't in Champions. Rather deliberately wasn't made one. Open
> your book up and look. The groups are Sight, Hearing, Taste/Smell, Radio,
> Mental and Unusual.
Ahh, nevermind on that 'touch' per-se. Take a look at Unusual
however, that will hold touch quite well. I know that it is accepted as a
group, for purposes of targeting, in at least one book character. Check
out Yu-Genothrax (sp?) from Classic Organizations.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 21:54:41 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Telekinesis
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> Yes, base TK is Visible, vs. OCV/DCV. The biggest problem I have with TK
> Based on ECV is that I'm not sure you can affect non-sentient targets
> with it. If you plan on making a character with an EGO higher than his
> DEX, consider buying extra DEX, for TK CV only (-1) [my own estimate,
> considering you get no adds to SPD, DCV, other OCVs, initiative, etc.].
The problem with this is that adjusment powers will work in a
totally unexpected and illogical way when it comes to Dex and Ego
adjustments. Also, certain combat modifiers that should or shouldn't
affect mental will affect this CV. You could allow the character to treat
it as straight "ECV", but that is a kludge more trouble than it's worth.
Now, based on ECV, as written, gives us ECV vs ECV. That's great
for the characters who take it, as they will, in general, have higher
ECV's then CV's, and their opponents will have lower ECV's than CV's. If,
however, you allow the option of ECV vs DCV, you still have that first
advantage of higher ECV than CV, but most of your opponents will have
_higher_ DCV's, and thus the advantage will be _less_useful_.
Now, as for whether that power can affect non-sentients, I think
there is no problem here. The basic advantage allows a vs regular
defenses instead of vs EgoDef as a standard option. Just make anything
that takes ECV vs DCV take the vs RegDef option.
If anything, this advantage's cost should be _lowered_ to +1/2 or
+3/4 instead of, as some say, making it an aditional advantage onto "Based
on ECV".
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 22:11:43 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers
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[much cut]
> >
> >Please keep your hystreonics to yourself. I'm not interested in people who
> >make a severly invalid point, then get insulted, then make a point apparently in support of an issue which it cannot possibly support, then label me and antagonist because i point this out. What you call flaming i call disagreement, i'm terribly sorry i didn't realise this list was designed for mutual admiration purposes only.
>
I've been deleting way too many idotic messages from one with no
clue. So, someone, please tell me how to make a kill file in Pine.
(First time I've needed one)
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 22:43:51 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer)
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> Obviously, this all depends on the power level of the campaign; there's
> nothing wrong with having the PCs be the world's premiere superteam, in
> which case best of just about anything could be allowed. Of course, the
> average Champions campaign has the PCs somewhere around the middle of the
> range - the X-Men rather than the Avengers, so to speak. (Although the
> X-Men themselves have gotten rather inflated in power level recently.)
> Assuming we're talking about this power level...
This is quite what I should have mentioned. Most, heck, all
campaigns I have run have either been at the low-powered "street" level or
with the characters being about average. They were inmportant for
defending their city and region, and sometimes saving the world, but there
were other hero teams, perhaps more powerful, perhaps not, saving their
own respective cities.
I'd kinda put it at about the New Warrior level, or maybe the
Alpha Strike.
> > Sure, those might work. But strongest?
>
> Only if it's heavily limited. Eg: a character who had the ability to
> channel the power of Earth's Geosphere; her upper limit on STR was _way_
> above anybody else, but the upper levels required enough concentration and
> END expenditure to make them near-useless. (Of course, the amount she
> could usefully channel increased with experience.)
Which is why I actually said that Strongest may, in fact, be
possible. However, any character will max out at 80 combat-effective STR.
That's 16DCs of damage, my HTH maximum. Some NPCs, particularly villians,
may be able to do more (Grond). It's a balance thing.
> > Most indestructable?
>
> No problem at all with this one. I'd expect such a character's offensive
> abilities to be towards the low end, but this would be pretty much
> inevitable anyway if they're spending that much on defenses.
But I'd assume others would be near that level. And I make sure
that every character has some area of weakness/vulnerability. Although, I
can be convinced otherwise.
>
> > Most powerful elementalist?
>
> Sure. Heck, "elementalist" isn't exactly a standard character archetype...
> the PC could easily be the _only_ elementalist in the campaign.
Hmmmm. I'd have problems with this one, especially cause this may
very well just be a subset of a magic user. And, like you say below,
magic users can get damned powerful.
> > Most powerful magic user?
>
> This is almost definitely out - mages tend to be pretty damn powerful in
> ths superhero genre.
Yup.
> > Most powerful battle armor?
>
> Probably not, but it depends on how you feel super-tech compares to
> paranormal powers. It's entirely possible that the most powerful body
> armour is only middle-of-the-road compared to actual supers.
I'd say that powered-armour could reach up to the Iron-Man level
and beyond. That's enough to require tons of points spent on the various
systems. The PC may eventually get there, but will have to constantly
improve and work on the battle armor.
> > These aren't quite within low level characters reach --
> > except maybe strongest.
>
> Interesting - strongest is one of the last I'd allow.
See above, but also note that the STR could be taken with a
limitation of "STR grants no HTH damage-for lifting purposes only".
Now, let me have a final say here on the "most powerful X" thing.
I think it is fine if the _character_ thinks that he/she is the most
powerful whatever. The player just has to realize that the character may
very well be proven wrong. (Or not). They don't know everything about
the world, and when the "world's strongest man" suddenly runs into a
rampaging Godzilla, well, he can't complain that I let Zilly have a 160
STR compared to his 80.
And, no matter what, starting characters will be limited by the
campaign limits. You may think you are absolutely fastest, but perhaps
there is another (beyond what I think would be balanced for players). You
might think yourself to have the best Mind Control. But there may be
another (beyond what I think would be . . . Well, you get the picture)
-Tim Gilberg
Subject: ... Then You Might Be A Power Gamer
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 97 09:06:49 -0400
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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If You...
Buy Stretching with the Indirect Advantage...
Take the -1/4 Lim. "Not when in a vacuum" on your Colt .45's...
Always wondered why you couldn't put a multipower inside your EC...
Ever talked to your GM for more than three hours about the nuances
of Usable Against Others compared to Usable By Others...
Know exactly how many NCOMx it takes to get to Mach 2 on 10" of
Flight...
Ever asked a GM what would "Not usable on even numbered days" would be
worth,
and then tried to justify it's use...
Knowingly put the most outrageously abusive power ever on your character
sheet, just to hide the second most outrageously abusive power ever...
Consider anyone who buys a DEX of 24 to be wasteful with points...
Have 5 characters already written up, just in case, ...
Don't need a calculator to figure out the cost of a ultra slot in a 63
point multipower w/ 3 1/4 in Lims & 1 3/4 in advantages...
... Then You Might Be A Power Gamer
The popularity of Windows surged in 1995, when |
Microsoft began shipping Windows 95, which | David A. Fair
included many innovations that the Macintosh | SDS International
had introduced 10 years earlier. | dfair@sdslink.com
- Reuters, Friday, July 18, 1997 |
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Oil Slick
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
F> "_At the GM's option_, Change Environment may have _slight_ effect on
F> combat (small minuses on PER rolls, OCVs, etc.), depending upon special
F> effect and the _exact_ circumstances."
F> In other words, Change Environment doesn't normally have _any_ effect on
F> combat. It can affect Limitations and Susceptabilities, but neither one
F> is necessary for a person to slip on oil or ice. It can affect charactes
F> in a _slight_ way (it cannot force a PER roll, but can subtract from
F> one, it cannot stop an attack or halve a DCV, but it can give you a
F> slightly reduced OCV or DCV), _only in very particular circumstances.
Back up for a second.
The GM will call for a Perception roll when there is a chance that a
character may not notice something. If Change Environment can incur minor
penalties to Perception rolls, then that Change Environment does "force"
the character to make a Perception roll because there is a chance he will
not notice that something. If the character fails his Perception roll he
will suffer CV penalties if that something is about to attack him. Thus,
we have a case of Change Environment indirectly -- not directly -- having
an effect on combat that is completely within the realm of the power.
If this line of reasoning is valid, and I belive that it is, then I see no
reason why other Characteristic rolls may be affected by Change
Environment. The listed "slight effects" are clearly not intended to be
all-encompassing, after all; they are dependant upon the special effects of
the Change Environment.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should
\ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 09:39:39 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: wga@pop.cwru.edu (Unverified)
From: wga@po.cwru.edu (Will Austin)
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers
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>> At 10:13 AM 9/2/97 +0000, you wrote:
>> >Now, should characters do something stupid, I let the dice land where
>> >they may. But being killed or seriously maimed simply because the dice
>> >decree it, no. I change the results.
>>
>> define stupid- too often it actually means- "they p*ss*d me off". . .
>>
>
> You know; that's a good point. Too many people who GM put themselves
>on this high, undemocratic chair. Once there they ruthlessly beat down any
>discention amoung the ranks. No viewpoint but the GM's becomes valid.
> How did we reach this state when the hobby comes from a country which
>prides itself on it's claim to democratic ideals. Or even in a hobby which
>itself proclaims cooperation over competition.
>
> I find a GM needs to learn to have much more patience, and a very
>controlled temper.
> Both players and GM are there for enjoyment. Most gaming groups end up
>being more about the socializing than the RPG itself.
> If a player has an argument over a ruling and a GM just declares "I'm
>the GM, my ruling stands"; the issue is NOT resolved. Ill will has just been
>created. Both sides need to sit down and discuss it until a mutually
>acceptable result is found. Otherwise that ill will just piles up and up until
>it becomes personal. I can think of countless examples where friendships died
>over things like this not being dealt with, but rather just 'pushed down'.
>Over time they boiled up as more and more of them occured. In time the parties
>concerned becomes hostile and look to things outside of gaming to fight over.
At the same time, depending on the issue being discussed, GM fiat
rather than mutually acceptable debate is desired--after all, the GM *is*
the referee, as long as he has consistent, plausible grounds for doing so.
> Yelling down and issue never works in the long run. Gaming is not a
battlefield where not following the >the leader will kill somebody. It's a
social forum where all parties need to be assured they can agree and be
>willing to resolve diferences.
> Most 'accused powergamers' are no more 'powergamers' than the witches at
Salem were really 'witches'. The same >with 'rules-lawyers'. They're
ussually just people with difering views with a GM who is too closed minded
and authoratative to >listen.
I disagree--most powergamers *are* powergamers, and many
rules-lawyers *are* rules lawyers. . .inherent in their designations is the
concept of differing viewpoints from the GM; in these cases, the difference
is in extremis and threatens the fabric of the gaming group. . .
> Even when someone is obviously wrong; you have to listen. Only then can
you calmly correct them. And you just >might find it was you who was wrong.
If someone is *obviously* wrong, you don't *have* to listen. . .;>>
> If you have a player who insists on arguing every point; it's most likely
because they feel their views are not being >heard. Sit down with the person
and let them explain it, then explain your views. Find something you can
agree on and work >from there. In time their argumentative nature will
change to one which seeks to cooperate.
Uh, not necessarily. . .I can think of two players of mine who argue
every point to see if they can get me to cave in on a decision. They enjoy
my games and are always badgering me to run something, but it's in their
nature to argue very call--much like some pro atheletes. . .
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 15:17:06 +0000
Subject: Re: ... Then You Might Be A Power Gamer
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On 8 Sep 97 at 9:06, David Fair wrote:
> Take the -1/4 Lim. "Not when in a vacuum" on your Colt .45's...
>
Actually, Colt .45s _do_ work in vacuum. But I might allow "Not
underwater", if underwater combat was common enough.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 08:29:31 -0700 (PDT)
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> >
> > >> An oil slick or sheet of ice does not cause most people to fall over
> > >> every phase, not unless they are throwing caution to the wind.
> >
> > F> Really? Ever tried to fistfight on a sheet of wet ice? Care to bet
> > F> you don't fall over constantly?
> This is not a minor effect.
All of this forgets something:
Oil or Ice aren't the only special effects behind a super-slick power.
Slick from the Liberty Project comic simply made surfaces ultra-slick, or
frictionless. If a surface has 0 friction, you have no control.
There's friction reduction, banana's, oil, ice, marbles...
It could even be little smurfs that grab you and throw you down. :)
To date, the best thing I've come up with is an EB with knockback
only. Set it up area effect, continuous, uncontrolled. Give it a lim that
says it's gets reduced via successful dex rolls.
If it exhisted, I'd suggest Entangle based on Dex.
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 15:40:25 +0000
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers
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On 8 Sep 97 at 9:16, Brian Wong wrote:
>
> To me this is proof of a flaw in your GMing style.
> I've GM'd for 15 years, with groups all over the USA, and quite a few from
> outside it as well.
> Yet I've never encountered this problem. Not once. Maybe it's because
> I let people speak their minds. I seriously doubt I've been lucky. Especially
> since I've taken players who I was warned in advance were trouble causers.
> Often warned by other people in the very group I've handled.
I have roughly the same style you describe (always listen to players,
almost always resolve the problem before continuing), and I would
agree with you, save that I have had a player with whom the method
you described didn't work.
Allowing him to discuss all disagreements with me during
game time was a disaster. I should have at least told him, "My
rulings are final", and I frankly wish I had had the nerve to tell
him to shut up or leave.
This player wasn't a "power gamer" or a "rules lawyer", in the
traditional sense, he simply thought he was GM, and demanded that I
give in to him whenever he thought things should be different.
> Now, I've had people correct me countless times on a bad ruling, or
> a rule innacuracy, or whatever. I rarely make the same mistake twice, but I
> go in admitting I'm human and fallable. I don't see my role as a referee in
> a sporting event; I see it as a fascilitator in a creative writing group.
>
> When I find a so called rules-lawyer; I ussually hand them a rule book
> and ask them to spot me ahead of time. Works great.
> I have the so called power gamer go over the character sheets for me.
> Works great.
>
> As I said, peole like this are ussually this way because they feel
> they're not being listened to. Give them a voice and the trouble goes away.
As I said, I agree, save that it doesn't always work.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 09:16:39 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: rook@infinex.com
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> >
> > I find a GM needs to learn to have much more patience, and a very
> >controlled temper.
> > If a player has an argument over a ruling and a GM just declares "I'm
> >the GM, my ruling stands"; the issue is NOT resolved. Ill will has just been
> >created. Both sides need to sit down and discuss it until a mutually
> >acceptable result is found. Otherwise that ill will just piles up and up until
> >it becomes personal. I can think of countless examples where friendships died
> >over things like this not being dealt with, but rather just 'pushed down'.
> >Over time they boiled up as more and more of them occured. In time the parties
> >concerned becomes hostile and look to things outside of gaming to fight over.
>
> At the same time, depending on the issue being discussed, GM fiat
> rather than mutually acceptable debate is desired--after all, the GM *is*
> the referee, as long as he has consistent, plausible grounds for doing so.
>
This is a competative attitude that only encourages debate. Gaming
is not football or boxing. It's a cooperative storytelling forum. Even if
the challenge of the game is important to you; the cooperation aspect is
still the foundation of the hobby.
> > Even when someone is obviously wrong; you have to listen. Only then can
> you calmly correct them. And you just >might find it was you who was wrong.
>
> If someone is *obviously* wrong, you don't *have* to listen. . .;>>
>
Not listening is closed minded. It's saying I'm right and your wrong
so shut up or put up. It only serves to cause greater trouble later on.
Often times, a person who seems to be 'obviously wrong' has a good
reason for it. And even if they do end up being wrong, finding the reason
why they thought what they thought is the only way to change their opinion
and achieve resolution.
> > Most 'accused powergamers' are no more 'powergamers' than the witches at
> Salem were really 'witches'. The same >with 'rules-lawyers'. They're
> ussually just people with difering views with a GM who is too closed minded
> and authoratative to >listen.
> I disagree--most powergamers *are* powergamers, and many
> rules-lawyers *are* rules lawyers. . .inherent in their designations is the
> concept of differing viewpoints from the GM; in these cases, the difference
> is in extremis and threatens the fabric of the gaming group. . .
> > If you have a player who insists on arguing every point; it's most likely
> because they feel their views are not being >heard. Sit down with the person
> and let them explain it, then explain your views. Find something you can
> agree on and work >from there. In time their argumentative nature will
> change to one which seeks to cooperate.
>
> Uh, not necessarily. . .I can think of two players of mine who argue
> every point to see if they can get me to cave in on a decision. They enjoy
> my games and are always badgering me to run something, but it's in their
> nature to argue very call--much like some pro atheletes. . .
>
To me this is proof of a flaw in your GMing style.
I've GM'd for 15 years, with groups all over the USA, and quite a few from
outside it as well.
Yet I've never encountered this problem. Not once. Maybe it's because
I let people speak their minds. I seriously doubt I've been lucky. Especially
since I've taken players who I was warned in advance were trouble causers.
Often warned by other people in the very group I've handled.
Now, I've had people correct me countless times on a bad ruling, or
a rule innacuracy, or whatever. I rarely make the same mistake twice, but I
go in admitting I'm human and fallable. I don't see my role as a referee in
a sporting event; I see it as a fascilitator in a creative writing group.
When I find a so called rules-lawyer; I ussually hand them a rule book
and ask them to spot me ahead of time. Works great.
I have the so called power gamer go over the character sheets for me.
Works great.
As I said, peole like this are ussually this way because they feel
they're not being listened to. Give them a voice and the trouble goes away.
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 12:47:41 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Problems with SCM's web sites
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I've forwarded this from rec.games.frp.super-heroes....
------------------------------------------------------------------
OK, things with Intercomm have gotten out of hand, and I'm going to be
moving to a different web hosting service. The new base address will
be:
http://www.mactyre.net
It's going to take a little while for InterNIC to register the name
and for the DNS servers to update, but hopefully by next Monday,
everything will be working fine. Knock on wood and keep your fingers
crossed. I'll let you all know for sure as soon as I do. This
certainly isn't the way I conceived of the circumstances of getting
our own domain, though. <sigh>
If anyone here is on the Hero List, could you please forward the
message? I'd hate to spam a list I don't subscribe to. Thank you for
all your support and for the e-mail messages; I really appreciate it.
And do continue to write to roger@intercomm.com, because getting a new
ISP is going to take a little while, and Ron (the systems
administrator who justified his actions by saying "I'm the systems
administrator and I don't have to explain myself to you") is still
there. Hopefully not by Monday, but he is for the moment. =/
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
http://users.intercomm.com/redwolf/scm/original.html
Online Champions Resources: PRIMUS, VIPER Net, G3, Chessmen, and more!
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 13:35:48 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Mind Control: Single Command
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Ok, a quick question here. I have always understood the ruling on Mind
Control: Single Command to mean that the player defined the Single Command
when constructing the character and it could never be changed. This is how
I and my players have always played and it has never been questioned. Well,
up until last night when I had a new player with mind control: single
command. Of course, I could always declare it is our house rule, but I want
the official ruling here. He seems to think the Single Command ruling means
he can only do, "Hit Bad Guy!" as opposed to what he refers to as Multiple
Commands, "Hit Bad Guy, Pick him up, throw him out the window, jump down on
him and beat on him more." I see this as being wrong, because it would be
just as simple to say Single Command, "Fight Bad Guy" then you have to mess
with all sorts of problems like is the command you gave him just one or did
you put two into in a sly way? Discussing this with my player for some time
after the game, I told him that I would turn it over to the list since my
ruling seemed unfair to him and I could see his point, but he would accept
it if it turned out my ruling was correct. So, could someone please clear
matters up here. Thanks and talk at you later.
Sparx
Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 12:29:56 -0700
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Mind Control: Single Command
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Sparx asked what interpretation Mind Control: Single Command meant:
I agree with Sparx. The command is picked at character creation.
On the second point on how broad the command is:
The broader the command, the looser the interpretation.
-Mark
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 16:55:22 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: Mind Control: Single Command
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On Mon, 8 Sep 1997, Sparx wrote:
> Ok, a quick question here. I have always understood the ruling on Mind
> Control: Single Command to mean that the player defined the Single Command
> when constructing the character and it could never be changed.
Yes.
> up until last night when I had a new player with mind control: single
> command. Of course, I could always declare it is our house rule, but I want
> the official ruling here. He seems to think the Single Command ruling means
> he can only do, "Hit Bad Guy!" as opposed to what he refers to as Multiple
> Commands, "Hit Bad Guy, Pick him up, throw him out the window, jump down on
> him and beat on him more."
No, what he's describing is the way _unmodified_ Mind Control works. If
you want to give multiple commands, you have to make multiple attack
rolls.
(Of course, I'd be inclined to allow each command to involve more than one
simple action; something like "Beat that guy up".)
Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 13:18:29 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Mind Control: Single Command
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Sparx wrote:
>
> Ok, a quick question here. I have always understood the ruling on Mind
> Control: Single Command to mean that the player defined the Single Command
> when constructing the character and it could never be changed. This is how
> I and my players have always played and it has never been questioned. Well,
> up until last night when I had a new player with mind control: single
> command. Of course, I could always declare it is our house rule, but I want
> the official ruling here. He seems to think the Single Command ruling means
> he can only do, "Hit Bad Guy!" as opposed to what he refers to as Multiple
> Commands, "Hit Bad Guy, Pick him up, throw him out the window, jump down on
> him and beat on him more." I see this as being wrong, because it would be
> just as simple to say Single Command, "Fight Bad Guy" then you have to mess
> with all sorts of problems like is the command you gave him just one or did
> you put two into in a sly way? Discussing this with my player for some time
> after the game, I told him that I would turn it over to the list since my
> ruling seemed unfair to him and I could see his point, but he would accept
> it if it turned out my ruling was correct. So, could someone please clear
> matters up here. Thanks and talk at you later.
Okay, I don't have my book handy, but I'm guessing your player and
you probably tried referring to the book yourselves during your
discussion of this subject.
I have always read the rule to mean "only one command ever" I take
the limitation to represent a mentalist with limited scope, or a
mesmerizing power which has a predetermined effect (i.e. a power which
conceptually is not really Mind Control, but is represented best using
MC mechanics).
Being a (-1/2) limitation, it's too great a point savings to simply
limit Mind Control to 'single-command-at-a-time', since this is a rather
common use already; in my experience, it is not too common to have very
complex or involved commands.
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 20:24:01 +0000
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net
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At 6:02 PM 9/6/97, Filksinger wrote:
>I have been in a discussion with several others concerning the "core"
>rules of Hero, specifically the HSR. The question concerns Drain, and I
>was hoping to get an official answer.
>
>One of the participants insists that, using the HSR only (the HSA I is
>considered "optional", and he doesn't use it), that it is impossible to
>Drain characteristics or powers below zero. He is willing to consider, at
>most, the possibility that continuing to Drain a power causes it to
>recover more slowly, but he absolutely insists that you cannot render
>someone unconscious or dead with a Drain. He claims that, since you
>cannot buy less than 1 Body or Stun, that you cannot Drain either one to
>zero, and certainly not to a negative.
If he is the GM, then he certainly can take that stance. If he is a player
in the game, then the GM should be able to choose to use HSA I, or any
other rules he wants for draining below 0. Certainly, we always played that
it was possible to Drain someone's STUN to below 0, to knock them out. And
you should be able to Drain someone to 0 BODY, but BE CAREFUL with that
one! It can get gross.
__________________
So, according to Bruce Harlick, the people at Hero Games "always"
considered a Drain to be capable of rendering someone unconscious or
killing them.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 13:49:56 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers
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Legionair@aol.com wrote:
> In one of my current games a PC wanted to play a Daxamite (think Mon'El or
> Superman, with only minor differences). At first it seemed like a disaster,
> but I had the player send me a background and personality write up first.
> From there I saw plenty of plot devices and ideas that I could use. Enough
> that it far out weighed the potential for game corruption. On top of this, I
> was fairly familar with the player as well and knew that he wouldn't take the
> character too far.
>
> The difference here was that the character concept *ITSELF* was enough of a
> disadvantage to balance the cost of creating the characters. I'm not talking
> about having 300 points in disads or having a terrible life story or anything
> like that... Just that the way in which the player was planning to play the
> character would place enough limitations on the character that it would
> balance out.
This I agree with - IF you have players who place more importance on
roleplaying than they do on point-crunching. Don't get me wrong; I
think point-cost efficiency is expected and needed, but in these cases,
it needs to trail the roleplaying aspect at least to some degree. In my
games, I do have a character point limit, but this is more because *I*
don't want to have to deal with too many disadvantages - it can get
hairy with 5 or 6 350-point characters.... But as long as they have a
solid, interesting concept behing their creation, they can do whatever
they can make work.
> I also play fast and furious with the rules. The way I see it, the rules
> were designed as a framework, not a cage. The framework is the basis from
> which all the players and the GM view the gameworld. Arguing over the
> nuances of the verbage for the rules only reinforces the cage.
>
> The GM and the players should have an understanding in this way, so that the
> players do trust the GM... In other words, if I think it's dramatically
> important to have the bad guy's flunkies surprise and overpower the PCs, then
> they'll go along with it. They don't go along with it because I said so,
> just because they trust that I don't do that sort of thing lightly and
> because the rules bend both ways. If I cheat on behalf of the storyline then
> I cheat equally as much on behalf of the PCs.
I also agree here, generally. I have one reformed powergamer in my
game, and he still will bring up mechanic- and rule-related questions
and comments, but I will take out a couple of minutes if necessary to
explain or clarify, but feel that it's important to keep the game moving
so that - as previously pointed out - the other players don't lose
interest.
This is particularly important if you have a gaming group that are
NOT unanimously focussed. My group consists of three couples (married)
and one single. I GM and my wife is a player, though her primary reason
for playing is because everyone else is. Sometimes she really gets
caught up in the game and involved, but she can lose interest if things
slow down for too long. Another couple consists again of the husbang
being at the game to GAME, and his wife there primarily because he is.
Again, she has gotten swept up into the game on occasion, but also can
lose interest fairly easily. The other couple met through my game, so
are both vested in the game, and the other player is new enough that he
tries to be involved, but can be distracted by others who are losing
interest...
Now ideally, of course, a gaming group would consist solely of
fanatics, but in a social circle consisting largely of couples, that
gets harder and harder. It's not a bad situation, but it requires a
tighter reign on keeping the game moving along quickly enough to keep
everyone's interest. I also believe that this dynamic still exists in
your more 'normal' gaming group, if to a lesser degree. If someone
starts losing interest in the game, it's like a loose thread on a
tapestry; if not tended to quickly, the whole thing will start to
unravel, and your game will become a heap of loose thread lying on the
floor....
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 16:24:10 -0500
From: Alex Rojas <rojasa@uthscsa.edu>
Subject: RE: Mind Control: Single Command
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Sparx wrote:
>
> Ok, a quick question here. I have always understood the ruling on Mind
> Control: Single Command to mean that the player defined the Single Command
> when constructing the character and it could never be changed. This is how
> I and my players have always played and it has never been questioned.
That's the way we've always used it also. "Freeze" replaced the old Mental
Entangle power. "Fall in love with me" and other 'emotions' would use this
limitation. One emotion, chosen when the character was created.
Alex
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 17:06:18 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: RE: Mind Control: Single Command
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Thanks all. I was pretty sure that we weren't just playing a "House Rule"
but since we use it so little, it came into question. Yeah, we did check
the book, but it only says something along the lines of Mind Control which
only allows a single command can be purchased at -1/2. As I said, it was to
understandings of that which caused the confusion. I understood it to be
only one prechosen command during creation, he saw it as only a single
command at a time. Both are ways of looking at it, so that is why I brought
it here. Thanks again and talk at you later.
Sparx
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 18:24:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Mind Control: Single Command
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On Mon, 8 Sep 1997, Mark Lemming wrote:
> Sparx asked what interpretation Mind Control: Single Command meant:
>
> I agree with Sparx. The command is picked at character creation.
This is my postion as well. Single Command is just that: a sinlge command
that is chosen at time of conception. For example: 'freeze' (replacing
the old Mental Paralaysis power) or love potions would use this type of
limiation.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 18:31:05 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Mind Control: Single Command
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> you put two into in a sly way? Discussing this with my player for some time
> after the game, I told him that I would turn it over to the list since my
> ruling seemed unfair to him and I could see his point, but he would accept
> it if it turned out my ruling was correct. So, could someone please clear
> matters up here. Thanks and talk at you later.
Um, this is definately a case of a mistaken player. Single
command means that the mind control works with only one command -- ever.
-Tim Gilberg
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com>
Subject: RE: Oil Slick
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 23:52:20 -0400
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For those interested in representing a slick surface but don't own a copy of
Ninja Hero, here's essentially how Aaron Allston wrote up two unusual, dropped
weapons, marbles and tetsu bishi, on page 109.
Marbles: 20 STR Telekinesis, AE One Hex (+1/2), Continuous (+1),
Uncontrolled (+1/2); Activation 14-(-1/2), 2 Recoverable Charges (-1),
Does No Damage (-1), Only to Throw Target to Ground (-2), No Effect
on Flying/Leaping (-1/4), IAF (-1/2), DEX Roll Cancels effect (-1/4).
Active Cost: 90
Real Cost: 14
Tetsu Bishi: 1d6 RKA, AE One Hex (+1/2), Continuous (+1),
Uncontrolled (+1/2); Activation 14- (-1/2), 2 Recoverable Charges (-1),
No Effect on Flying/Leaping (-1/4), IAF (-1/2).
Active Cost: 45
Real Cost: 14
Because marbles and tetsu bishi are supposed to be inconspicuous when dropped,
they're treated as IAF rather than OAF.
Hope this provides some help or inspiration.
Len Carpenter
redlion@voicenet.com
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 01:07:27 -0400
Subject: 24 DEX
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-3
From: willggeiger@juno.com (William G Geiger)
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Contrary to David Fair's Power Gamer, I think a 24 DEX is handy. The
Hero poll revealed that the average PC DEX is 23. 24 DEX goes first.
Aloha, WillGGeiger@juno.com
Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 22:27:19 -0700
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Reply-To: rook@infinex.com
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers
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Filksinger wrote:
> I have roughly the same style you describe (always listen to players,
> almost always resolve the problem before continuing), and I would
> agree with you, save that I have had a player with whom the method
> you described didn't work.
>
Yeah, you're right. Nothing can ever be said to be an absolute...
--
Rook
Also known as Arcady on #herochat and #Fuzionchat in DALnet IRC
herochat is a channel for discusion of the Hero system
Fuzionchat is for dicussion of Fuzion (C:NM, BGC, et all)
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Also, check out the new version of Villians & Vigilantes at
http://illusionmachines.com/personal/jeff/vandv.html
Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 21:47:11 -0800
From: rbezold <rbezold@nwrain.com>
Subject: Re: MONEY...MONEY...MONEY...
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Well, call me naive and needlessly puritanical, but I think its the root
of all EVIL...EVIL...EVIL... pbbbt! :(
Anybody who came into a game of mine with an attitude like that would be
forced to take 15 points of wealth as a perk, just so I could take it
away from him later. (So there.)
Robert
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 01:49:42 -0500
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: 24 DEX
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At 01:07 AM 9/9/97 -0400, William G Geiger wrote:
>Contrary to David Fair's Power Gamer, I think a 24 DEX is handy. The
>Hero poll revealed that the average PC DEX is 23. 24 DEX goes first.
Which just goes to show you're (probably) not a Power Gamer. After all, a
26 DEX also goes first, and a REAL Power Gamer can find a way to squeeze a
26 DEX for the same cost as the 24. :]
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely. |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 01:57:16 -0500
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Invisible to touch attack
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At 10:49 AM 9/9/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>Ever been stung by a bee? It HURTS! And the stinger is quite visible.
>
>Any dart that penetrates sufficiently to inject sufficient quantities of a
>toxin as to be lethal is generally not going to go unnoticed.
Well, to play devil's advocate, it hurts precisely because the bee IS
injecting quantities of a potentially lethal toxin into your body. You
don't feel the penetration of a bee sting, but the inflammation from the poison.
But on the other hand, you can feel even a mosquito bite if you're paying
attention, so it's not like it's really "invisible" to touch, and a mosquito
is nice enough to anesthize you before biting. I'd still tend to say that
one could sense the dart whether it hurt or not.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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From: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net (Mike Lehmann)
Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 23:38:09 -0800
Organization: Terminal BBS (403)327-9731
Subject: Oil Slick (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions)
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-=> Quoting Brian Wong to Mike Lehmann <=-
BW> To date, the best thing I've come up with is an EB with knockback
BW> only. Set it up area effect, continuous, uncontrolled. Give it a lim
BW> that says it's gets reduced via successful dex rolls.
BW> If it exhisted, I'd suggest Entangle based on Dex.
We do use a similar, variant rule in our local gaming, a "Reverse
Entangle".
Usually a BODY-only entangle, with each point of BODY translating to a
-1 on a forced DEX check. It only affects the single hex, and cannot
create a "wall".
It functions much like entangle otherwise, including lasting until
destroyed/removed (such as melting ice/dissipating oil pools), AOEs,
etc.
Comments?
mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net - - - - - Justice Krewe / Enigma Watch GM
- - - - - - http://www.dfw.net/~aronhead/justice_krewe.html - - - - - -
... Necessity never made a good bargain. - Ben Franklin
~~~ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
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Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 18:15:54 +1000
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: The pet NPC was (Re: Curbing the Power Gamer)
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At 07:11 AM 9/7/97 +0600, you wrote:
>>>
>>
>>your talking about things players do wrong, but acting like it's a problem
>with charactr creation. it isn't. .
>>
>But aren't the Players responsible for character generation? Nowhere in the
>entire discussion have I heard Sparx say anything about a problem with the
>*game mechanics* of character creation.
>If the players are causing problems during character creation because of
>their attitudes, then it would be a problem *with the players* _and_ *with
>character creation*. Right?
>
>- Jerry
>
>
no. If the players didn't have a problem, then there wouldn't BE a problem.
Otherwise it's like saying that people being attacked with tyre-irons is a
problem with attackers _and_ tyre irons, which is not a meaningful or
constructive thing to say.
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 18:17:19 +1000
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: A Few Simple Requests...
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At 01:10 PM 9/7/97 -0400, you wrote:
>With the volume being generated over the whole 'Curbing the Power Gamer'
>thread, I'd like to make a couple of simple requests:
>
>1.) please trim them to the absolute minimum of reposted material. Don't
>repost fifteen lines of material and reply with a single line.
there was a problem with participants in the thread misquoting myself and
THEMself.
Sorry if i started a trend.
>
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 18:24:06 +1000
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Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
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At 07:46 AM 9/7/97 -0600, you wrote:
>
>
>Jones (happyelfie)
>
>I think you and I are talking apples and oranges because every time I
>mention the CHARACTER and the player's actions, you jump right into the
>powers involved and a sort-of fakey realism test. "Well, in a realistic
>world, he _WOULD_ hide and snipe." "Well, in a realistic world, he would
>have no friggin' powers! Duh!"
>
really? how is tk different from artilery? i think my point was well made:
the guy was useing what he had in a way which MADE SENCE, and the gm labeled
him a powergamer
not because of the PLAYERS actions, but the genre.
>>
>>actually this is extremly accurate- haven't you ever heard of artilery?
>this is how a psycic would fight, why would a normal human stand around in
>squishing distance of a brick?
>>it was- if you want heroic behaviour, require that all pc's have it as a
>psyc lim.
>
>Extremely accurate? Please point me to the superheroes who do this... They
>don't. SuperHERO game. NOT a Wild Cards game. Not a superhumans who kill
>game. Superhero game. If I want heroic behavior, I'll play a superHERO
>game. Duh.
>
this isn't heroic! it's STUPID! oh, i'm a virtual normal, i have to stand on
the front lines? how is anything heroic accomplished by needless risk? you
mean -
"morinic golden age twonk"
not
"superhero"
wolverine is a superhero, wolverene kills. Get over it, what you are talking
about is
4-color golden age pap.
>
>>Then you see a player wanting to play an ultra- powerful dude-
>>bulletproof, fast, brutal, this guy is WAY more likely to suvive the
>fights, and hence a more valid superhuman. . . .
>Ya wohl, mein herr. Un Uberman. A superhuman of death. Not a more valid
>SUPERHERO! Fine with me if you play killers of death and Teek ninjas but
>don't call them superheros or use "realistic" concerns to justify them.
>Something tells me you wince at all those "soppy" comics where the
>good-hearted but lowered-power guys come through because of moral quality or
>cooperation. Image comics fan, maybe?
>
>
>
good- hearted but LOW POWER? try:
superman
captain A of the invincible shield
captain atom
captain marvel
most low-power heros are more 'gritty', and no, i despise image.
Please, no more of this 'points spent on powers = less roleplaying value' crud.
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 18:29:07 +1000
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: The pet NPC was (Re: Curbing the Power Gamer)
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At 11:33 AM 9/7/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>These tensions have nothing to do with "bad players", they're human
>nature.
>We spend most of our live competing in one form or another, including most
>"games". It is highly unrealistic to expect that human beings will quit
>competeing just because they are playing an RPG. At best, the players
>will
>cooperate seeing that a group competing with the outside world has a
>better
>chance that an individual, kinda like life. If you've got a group of
>players
>you _think_ aren't competeing with each other, your deluding yourself, or
>they
>are being very subtile. But if they are human, they are competing.
>
uh-huh? how about :
"if they live in america, AND they're human, they are competing"
for all i know you do act like that- tho it's not likely. .
honestly, give your players some credit! This is the old maxim about vermin-
"if you look close and can't find them, they must be REALLY SMALL!"
subtle, indeed! *l*
>
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 18:37:23 +1000
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: A Few Simple Requests...
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At 02:01 PM 9/7/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
> Aloha, WillGGeiger@juno.com
>
>On Sun, 7 Sep 1997 13:10:56 -0400 (EDT) jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron
>Prins) writes: <snip>4.) please try to decide if you're getting anywhere
>- if not, try to
>>agree
>>to disagree (I say this because the powergamer is a universal game
>>problem -
>>sure, it's relevant to the champs list, but the best place for the
>>discussion is rec.games.frp.misc...)
>
>Or maybe off-lists entirely, sent just to the individual e-mail
>addresses. Most of the powergamer thread is now threadbare.
>
hmm, *cough* *cough* accurate, though i would suggest that the list should
be able to discuss MORE as opposed to LESS: i dunno if i missed the point
(post or whole list)
but couldn't the same be said for scenario threads of all sorts? plus i seee
hero as a game with SERIOUS potential powergamer problems, considering it's
scope. . .
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 18:42:32 +1000
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
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At 04:35 PM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Thanks. Finally it seems I'm understood. This is what I mean. That is all
>I ever met. It seems things have been misunderstood and arguements have
>started from such. I was wondering if I was muddled or not clear about my
>meaning, but thanks for making it a bit easier to see.
>
>Sparx
>
>
I suppose it hinges on the PC- i am basically opposed to, shall we say
writing people off, no matter what their transgretions? I'ts kinda a bit
difficult when you have a rather small pool of potential players, all of
which you know are capable role-players. I've never met anyone who has made
this sort of demand, though by now it is clear even to me that it is clearly
a concept people do encounter.
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 18:48:25 +1000
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer)
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At 12:57 PM 9/6/97 -0300, you wrote:
>> Most powerful magic user?
>
>This is almost definitely out - mages tend to be pretty damn powerful in
>ths superhero genre.
>
imagine someone who is _technically_ a powerful mage- with the champions
equivalent of magic resistance, maybe? they'd be very effective, dispels,
power drains, suppress, ect, but still not have much basing-power..
>> These aren't quite within low level characters reach --
>> except maybe strongest.
>
>Interesting - strongest is one of the last I'd allow.
>
>
it comes down to powers- is the pc just really strong, or do they have "ec-
strenth powers" like flash (clap) eb (groundstrike) and so forth. . a really
strong guy should have these effects. . . btw, has anyone seen a good
example of the hulk, useing this sort of logic?"
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 18:57:26 +1000
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers
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At 10:11 PM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
> I've been deleting way too many idotic messages from one with no
>clue. So, someone, please tell me how to make a kill file in Pine.
>(First time I've needed one)
>
>
> -Tim Gilberg
>
>
try plugging you ears. Or try another petition? I'd have no objection to a
democratic booting.
As already mentioned, i posted this publicly for a reason, because i didn't
feel like wearing the whole fiasco about flaming again. I'd also suggest
that the reason you never needed to kill someone's mail is that you've never
had a genuine point of contention before, and hence you've had no need to
overreact in this fasion. Yeeesss, i know the person in question isn't
listening, and once again i will suggest that i will _not_ wear this sort of
retort on the public list, being as it is meaningless and of no relevance to
the game, i feel it is only my right to respond, since this guy sure had no
qualms about doing so.
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 19:04:12 +1000
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
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At 01:59 AM 9/8/97 +0000, you wrote:
>
>No, he never said that was the _rational_ for the NPC, he simply said
>that an NPC existed, who was presently the most powerful telekinetic,
>whose power level exceeded the beginning maximum active points for an
>attack power.
>
the npc was introduced to the thread under just such a banner.
>He never said what the rationale or purpose was for the character. He
>certainly didn't say the character existed for the purpose of being
>the best TK, and he most definitely did not say the purpose of the
>character was to outshine or be better than the PCs.
>
but he does. how else will that particular bunch of hyper-compeditive
players see him?
><snip>
>> >I recall saying my NPCs never
>> >outshine my PCs
>>
>> apart from when you specifically design them to do so, as you SAID you
did with the force-tk-guy?
>
>He said nothing of the sort. He said that a PC couldn't be the most
>powerful telekinetic because someone more powerful existed, he did
>_not_ say that they were designed to outshine the PCs.
>
uh-huh? well, how's about we play "did noT!" "did SO!" for another 12 hours?
>> >if anything they come to the PCs for help even if they are
>> >more powerful in SOME areas.
>>
>> yes- and those are the areas that count. You already stated your
assupption that
>> 'powerful at one thing' leads to a power gamer
>
>Actually, he did not say that 'powerful at one thing' leads to a
>power gamer, he only said that a particular power gamer started by
>pushing the limits in one thing and went on from there. Not the same
>thing.
>
he stated that his observations only dealt with his players, hence his own
concept of powergamers is the one being disgussed.
>> >Sound familiar? Take it easy and talk at you
>> >later.
>> >
>>
>> yup, AT me, u sure as hell ain't listening to either of us. . .
>
>Frankly, I'd say this statement applies more to you than to him. I
>have seen him misunderstand you once or twice, and correct himself,
>but I have seen no sign that you understand him at all.
>
did noT! *l*
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 19:16:11 +1000
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers
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At 09:16 AM 9/8/97 -0700, you wrote:
> To me this is proof of a flaw in your GMing style.
>I've GM'd for 15 years, with groups all over the USA, and quite a few from
>outside it as well.
> Yet I've never encountered this problem. Not once. Maybe it's because
>I let people speak their minds. I seriously doubt I've been lucky. Especially
>since I've taken players who I was warned in advance were trouble causers.
> Often warned by other people in the very group I've handled.
>
> Now, I've had people correct me countless times on a bad ruling, or
>a rule innacuracy, or whatever. I rarely make the same mistake twice, but I
>go in admitting I'm human and fallable. I don't see my role as a referee in
>a sporting event; I see it as a fascilitator in a creative writing group.
>
> When I find a so called rules-lawyer; I ussually hand them a rule book
>and ask them to spot me ahead of time. Works great.
> I have the so called power gamer go over the character sheets for me.
>Works great.
>
> As I said, peole like this are ussually this way because they feel
>they're not being listened to. Give them a voice and the trouble goes away.
>
>
not to stick my own dogma in here, but this was kinda why i argued the point
at all.
The idea of the farytale 'bad stepsisters' players who cheat, lie and be
mean all the time is really just a cop-out (my words not his). The reason i
ended up calling them bad players is i assumed he was playing with a roomful
of nhillistic evil geniuses who dedicate their lives to the game, because
all those i have played with- including some of the scum of the earth- have
come around in the end, thanks to good gm-player relationship. Hence i
object to a non-anecdotal statement which bases it's logic
on the machinations of a bunch of 'evil' players, because frankly no-one
playing rpg's is that bad- they're all out playing nintendo *eg*
"you got a few more deamons tucked away in there? 'cause right now i don't
stand to make bus fare."
happy:->~elf
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 19:23:26 +1000
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers
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At 03:40 PM 9/8/97 +0000, you wrote:
>On 8 Sep 97 at 9:16, Brian Wong wrote:
>
>>
>> To me this is proof of a flaw in your GMing style.
>> I've GM'd for 15 years, with groups all over the USA, and quite a few from
>> outside it as well.
>> Yet I've never encountered this problem. Not once. Maybe it's because
>> I let people speak their minds. I seriously doubt I've been lucky. Especially
>> since I've taken players who I was warned in advance were trouble causers.
>> Often warned by other people in the very group I've handled.
>
>I have roughly the same style you describe (always listen to players,
>almost always resolve the problem before continuing), and I would
>agree with you, save that I have had a player with whom the method
>you described didn't work.
>
>Allowing him to discuss all disagreements with me during
>game time was a disaster. I should have at least told him, "My
>rulings are final", and I frankly wish I had had the nerve to tell
>him to shut up or leave.
>
<snip>
>As I said, I agree, save that it doesn't always work.
>
>Filksinger
>"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
>
this IS a valid point, but i can't help thinking that maybe a little lip
from you earlier on would have settled the player down. I suppose this seems
contrary to what is being suggested, but i think everybody agrees that a
firm habd has it's uses, though typically it's just as hard figuring _when_
to use it. . .
"you got a few more daemons tucked away in there? 'cause right now i don't
stand to make bus fare."
happy:->~elf
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Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 15:28:55 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Extradimensional Bases
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 07:15 PM 9/4/97 -0400, William G Geiger wrote:
> [Switched around to make the order of things correct]
>>On Thu, 4 Sep 1997 17:48:10 -0400 (EDT) Eric Burns
>><burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> writes:
>>>I was wondering how one might construct an extradimensional base.
>>>For example, Dr. Aether can teleport by moving through a small pocket
>>>dimension. He can also transport himself directly into this pocket
>>>dimension, which is his base (where he keeps his scientific equipment
>>>and such). How would I build this base (what levels of location and
>>>visibility would be necessary), and how could I make certain that Dr.
>>>Aether could transport to his base no matter where he is?
>>A Few Costs for Base in Pocket Universe
>>
>>10 Location: Distant
>>25 Modifier: (Extradimensional)Space
>> 1 Memorized location for teleport (your PC pays for this directly, not
>>a Base item)
>
> On that last item, I don't think you'd need the memorized location. Just
>an XDM with the Dimension defined as Dr. Aether's base should do the trick.
> And I think I'd add 5 more points to go from outer space to
>extradimensional space; after all, it's harder to be attacked by space aliens.
Hmm... Well, I think that may be campaign dependent. There are no space
aliens in my current campaign, but there are a honking lot of
extradimensional demons.
Also, you all seem to be in agreement that it should be Distant. But if the
character who owns it has XDM, so he can get back to the city instantly, is
this really accurate? The cost for distance seems to be to keep people away
from the base... how many other people have XDM? It might cost more...
but you seemed to cover that with the 5 extra points.
Keep in mind Dr. Aether is blowing points on just being able to travel
there. I, personally, would try and cut him a break, especially if it were
in conception. YMMV.
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 15:41:39 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Sense Group: Touch?
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There are inherent problems with incorporating this as a true Sense
Group. I believe this is why it wasn't thrown in the rules. As someone
else posted, "can of carnivorous worms." Indeed.
First, looking at Images. It would have to be clear that it *would
not* create "solid images." I don't know if anyone's reading JLA right now.
The "evil JLA" they fought in ish #11 were described as "photo-plastic hard
light" and "solid light images." Which is not what Images (the Power) would
give you. It may, as someone else posted, cause *apparent* temperature
increases/decreases, change the texture of material already there, etc. But
the GM would have to have a *tiiiight* rein on this.
Flash v. Touch. Agghhh! This would wig me out. Imagine: Touch is
the sense we are most familiar with. A cool breeze, the way our clothes
feel on our body, the pressure on the bottoms of our feet due to our
weight... and now all these sensations are *gone* (for about 6-12 seconds)
because we got hit by Dr. Flash's Uncomfortably Numb Ray. The worst for
*me* would be not being able to feel the ground... if I was blinded as
well, I'd really be gone (Psych Lim: Fear of Heights).
One thing I do like tho, is that, with Discriminatory, you'd be able
to read print with your fingertips, ala Daredevil.
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 15:46:19 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Costs END to turn off (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate
in Cha
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
<this was someone else's>
>>>Growth, Shrinking, Desolid, Invis, Force Field, Damage Shield, Stretching
>>>Density Increase, Flight, Tunneling, Shape Change, Telepathy, etc...
>>>
>>> All other these have in genre examples where the hero has to
>>>concentrate or pay energy to not be under their effects.
>>> One well known example is/was Kitty Pride of X-Men. She was desolid
>>>unless she willed herself solid.
>
> I know this is someone else's, but it's hard to let pass: when I was
>reading X-Men Kitty (aka Sprite aka Arial aka Shadowcat) was normally solid,
>but turned Desolid. I don't know if this has changed, though.
For awhile, at least, she always had it on. Now, I think it's default off.
It may or may not cost *any* END now, and she can turn other people Desolid
as well. Oh, and she can glide when she's real light.
That's a lot o' XP earned.
- Jerry
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:25:56 +0000
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net
Priority: normal
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On 9 Sep 97 at 19:04, happyelf! wrote:
> At 01:59 AM 9/8/97 +0000, you wrote:
> >
> >No, he never said that was the _rational_ for the NPC,
<snip>
>
> the npc was introduced to the thread under just such a banner.
I can see where you got that idea. His original post was written in
such a way that you could easily interpret it that way. I didn't, but
it is easily understandable. However, it did not actually _say_ that.
<snip>
>
> but he does. how else will that particular bunch of hyper-compeditive
> players see him?
I haven't seen him indicating that his players are
"hyper-competitive". The players he describes are fairly normal,
standard players, from the sounds of it.
If I create a campaign, I populate it with heroes and villains before
the PCs ever arrive. So, before I start, I already have a most
powerful X, whatever X is. Most powerful X may be very powerful, or
he may be mildly powerful, but he exists.
If a player wants to be the most powerful X, and the present one
exceeds the campaign maximums for _beginning_ players, then he will
either have to start out lower and build his way up, _or_ give me a
good reason for allowing him to violate the maximum. There's nothing
wrong with that.
<snip>
> >He said nothing of the sort. He said that a PC couldn't be the most
> >powerful telekinetic because someone more powerful existed, he did
> >_not_ say that they were designed to outshine the PCs.
> >
>
> uh-huh? well, how's about we play "did noT!" "did SO!" for another 12 hours?
He has repeatedly stated that that was not the purpose of the
character. In fact did the players even know about the character.
If they don't even know he exists, he can't outshine them. If one of
the players decided to build up his character in telekinesis, he
might well surpass the NPC without even knowing he ever existed.
> >Actually, he did not say that 'powerful at one thing' leads to a
> >power gamer, he only said that a particular power gamer started by
> >pushing the limits in one thing and went on from there. Not the same
> >thing.
> >
>
> he stated that his observations only dealt with his players, hence his own
> concept of powergamers is the one being disgussed.
Of course. His concept of powergamers is the one being discussed.
Since he a) did not say that the most powerful at one thing
automatically makes a powergamer, and b) has repeatedly said that
this is not the case, then why insist upon arguing against a
position that isn't his?
He said that powergamers often start out as best at A, then goes on
to find out what the other players are best at, and then tries to
outshine them as well. This is not the same as saying that starting
out as the best at A _leads to_ trying to beat out the other players.
Look. Even if he had said that, why continue to present that as his
position when he has repeatedly stated that is not what he meant to
say, and that it is a position that he does not support?
> >Frankly, I'd say this statement applies more to you than to him. I
> >have seen him misunderstand you once or twice, and correct himself,
> >but I have seen no sign that you understand him at all.
> >
>
> did noT! *l*
That's what I said. Thank you for agreeing with me.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 17:14:06 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Vehicles and bases
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Chris Lynch wrote:
>Maybe I have a mental block, maybe I just can't find this in the rule book
>or perhaps (Gasp...) it has never been written down.
>
>Will someone please remind me what happens (or at least what they do) when
>a base or vehicle gets destroyed? It is a case of independance and the
>points are just lost... or will the base/vehicle "rise again" for the next
>adventure?
>
>Apologies for being blatantly dull but none of my PC's have ever had a base
>or vehicle (they are prefer fly by night characters.. and who can blame
>them even with a SPD 12 dusting must still be a bore)
>
Well, Bases and Vehicles date back from 1982, with the _Champions II_ book.
Under Bases, _General Notes_ (p. 30, which includes the Goodman School of
Cost Effectiveness column on "END Users Anonymous"), it states that "Bases
may be repaired or modified at the rate of 1 pt. modified or repaired per
day. The time required may be halved for every 5 points spent that are not
used toward anything else. Yep, those 5 points are gone."
In the "Campaigning" section of _Champions III_ (c 1984), under Agencies:
Rebuilding, "When the bases or equipment belonging to agencies are
destroyed, they can be 'rebuilt' at the rate of 1 point per day. That is,
it doesn't cost anything extra to rebuild, it just takes time." It goes on
to say that a more "realistic" time frame is 1pt/week. Also, you can
"recruit" or replace lost agents at the same rate, but you have to choose
between the two.
Under Vehicles, _Vehicle Damage_ (p.48, which has the Goodman column on
Levels), Champs II states, "When the vehicle has taken twice its total BODY
it falls apart." This also seems to be supported in the current rules (BBB).
In the current rules, however, it says *nothing* (AFAIK, or can find) about
whether these are independent or not. It does compare them to other
equipment, noting that you would simply buy them with money in a Heroic
campaign, but must spent points in a Superheroic one.
Now, having said all this, here's an interpretation. I would probably allow
*up to* 1 pt/day rebuilt, but this would depend on roleplaying, "realistic"
comic book time put into the actions, etc. For example, if the Galactic
League of Superheroes went off to fight an alien menace in the depths of
space for several weeks (right after their base was partially eaten by
Gamora), and forgot to hire the contractors (who might not even work on it
while the heroes weren't there, for fear of being eaten by a giant flying
turtle), their base would still be partially eaten when they returned.
This seems to fit with the spirit of the old rules, *and* the way I
interpret the Focus Limitation. Sure, you paid points for it, but this game
is about roleplaying situations. I have taken away Foci for more than one
session before, for roleplaying and to make the hero overcome his handicap.
MHO, YMMV.
- Jerry
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Oil Slick
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 09 Sep 1997 08:16:58 -0400
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>>>>> "LC" == Len Carpenter <redlion@voicenet.com> writes:
LC> For those interested in representing a slick surface but don't own a
LC> copy of Ninja Hero, here's essentially how Aaron Allston wrote up two
LC> unusual, dropped weapons, marbles and tetsu bishi, on page 109.
That works fine in a campaign where there is a Strength cap; simply buy
more TK than that and you have something that works. In a superheroic
campaign, however, it becomes hideously expensive to make this work. The
Hulk stepping on some marbles *should* fall over; but he will shrug off 20
STR TK without blinking. 100 STR TK is the level you need to be reliable,
but now you are looking at a 450 Active Point power, with a real cost of
around 70.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions)
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 09 Sep 1997 08:33:01 -0400
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>>>>> "ML" == Mike Lehmann <mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net> writes:
ML> Usually a BODY-only entangle, with each point of BODY translating to a
ML> -1 on a forced DEX check. It only affects the single hex, and cannot
ML> create a "wall".
So, how does one create a slippery surface with no DEX roll penalty, which
is the norm for "normal" slippery surfaces?
An oil spill or a coating of ice/snow on the ground does not have
significant Body; what Body it has is the ground underneath. So I do not
believe that Entangle, even in variation, is a good power to use as a basis
for this.
Time for some lateral thinking: use Images as a guideline for building a
new power. Why? Why not. The mechanics -- not SFX! -- are closest to
what seems to be desired. 10 points buys you a 1 Hex "slick" area; anyone
entering it must make a Dexterity roll. 10 points buys you a cumulative -1
penalty to that roll. Increasing the area follows the standard +1/4=2x
progression.
Characters with the Acrobatics skill are much better at keeping their
balance than those without. Such characters may use their Acrobatics skill
instead of Dexterty to retain their footing, with a +5 bonus to their
rolls.
Perversely, before you start adding penalties, the cost is the same as
Change Environment, and has pretty much exactly the same effect.
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Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:37:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions)
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 3-5
From: willggeiger@juno.com (William G Geiger)
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Here's another idea, for those, myself included, who tend to prefer not
creating new Powers, for the ice or oil slick; 2d6 Minor Transformation,
thin layer of air to <ice/oil> slick, 2" radius (7 hexes), 40 Active
Points. Now you can consider Lims. such as Charges and No Range.
Aloha, WillGGeiger@juno.com
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 09:16:02 -0500
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@emerald.omg.org.omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@emerald.omg.org.omg.org
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At 11:42 AM 9/9/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> Reality check: Hero hasn't printed *anything* to make money. If they
> had, I've little doubt that they would've given up long ago and
> concentrated on their *real* jobs, and the whole Hero System would be a
> fond memory.
Return reality check: if Hero didn't give two bits about the money, they
wouldn't have bothered cashiering the HERO system for one they feel can
bring in a bigger market (Fuzion). Arguably, the HERO system IS just a fond
memory.
> RPG publishing is not, on the whole, a big money-making venture for
>anyone (that's notwithstanding T$R, of course).
You don't have to make big money to make money. The question isn't whether
HSAs rake in the dough as whether it raked in more dough than not doing them.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 09:16:05 -0500
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Vehicles and bases
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@emerald.omg.org.omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@emerald.omg.org.omg.org
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To: champ-l@emerald.omg.org.omg.org
At 07:59 PM 9/10/97 +0100, Chris Lynch wrote:
>Maybe I have a mental block, maybe I just can't find this in the rule book
>or perhaps (Gasp...) it has never been written down.
>
>Will someone please remind me what happens (or at least what they do) when
>a base or vehicle gets destroyed? It is a case of independance and the
>points are just lost... or will the base/vehicle "rise again" for the next
>adventure?
Depends on your GM's philosophy. The phrasing of the rules for Perquisites
implies strongly that Perks can be both gained and lost during play
REGARDLESS of points. Which is to say that if the base or vehicle (being
perks) are destroyed, they're just plain gone (like an Independent focus),
but on the other hand the characters can reestablish these perks (or
entirely different bases/vehicles) simply via roleplaying without points.
--
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Oil Slick
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 09 Sep 1997 10:47:22 -0400
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>>>>> "CL" == Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk> writes:
CL> This seems an over complicated way of saying "Use martial throw with
CL> the Ranged advantage"
Now you are dealing with attacker's OCV vs. defender's DCV, which is even
worse than STR vs. STR, not to mention the fact that putting Advantages on
Skills is not a good idea to begin with.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Invisible to touch attack
Mail-Copies-To: never
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>>>>> "CL" == Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk> writes:
CL> How about a poisoned dart?
CL> This would be a RKA with time delay and invisible to touch and maybe
CL> sight.
CL> The vicitim gets stung, doesn't notice,
Ever been stung by a bee? It HURTS! And the stinger is quite visible.
Any dart that penetrates sufficiently to inject sufficient quantities of a
toxin as to be lethal is generally not going to go unnoticed.
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X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 21:01:38 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Extradimensional Bases
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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The esteemed Mr. Greenwade wrote:
>At 03:28 PM 9/9/97 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
> I'd go along with that YMMV. OTOH, the XDM could be held by the base
>itself, at least if it was a Gate (and possibly otherwise)
>
ooo... hmm... Um, but how would you use that Gate to get to the base?
(Personally, I'm not familiar with the *exact* mechanics of the Gate, I
don't own Mystic Masters.) I assume it would be very similar to the old JLA
satelite, with the teleporters, right?
- Jerry
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:11:10 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
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>At 01:59 AM 9/8/97 +0000, you wrote:
>>
>>No, he never said that was the _rational_ for the NPC, he simply said
>>that an NPC existed, who was presently the most powerful telekinetic,
>>whose power level exceeded the beginning maximum active points for an
>>attack power.
>>
>
>the npc was introduced to the thread under just such a banner.
The following is the quote from the exact time. I admit it does sound at
the beginning like I mean this is a final statement, but later on I also
state that it is possible for a character to grow and surpass. At the time
of this statement, I meant there could be no STARTING character that was a
more powerful TK, here we go, just so you can read it, clipped and copied,
no alterations. Do keep in mind my justifications later. I'm not saying
everything I've said since this statement is null and void, I just want you
to point out to me where it says I built this character to make a PC feel
inferior, because, well, I don't see it.
((START))
>At 11:25 AM 9/2/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>>Yes, this is universally true, but so is the nature of the power gamer in
>>Champions. It is a game that seems to attract the power gamer due to the
>>fact that it is possible to build all sorts of characters and it is possible
>>to dump all sorts of points into one or two major areas. This is the job of
>>the GM to either put a stop to that or if that doesn't work, do as I do and
>>design the character for the power gamer based on his description. Usually,
>>I get, "That isn't as powerful as I wanted it to be." I just smile and
>>explain to the player that it is as powerful as *I* wanted it to be.
>>
>
>so jean grey can be the most powerful tK on the planet but a PC can't?
Exactly. In my campaign I already have the most powerful TK as a NPC, if a
player comes to me and tells me I want to be the MOST powerful TK they
better have a good reason for surpassing the NPC.
Think of it this way, say you were in my game. You were playing the average
character that you designed because I knew you weren't a power gamer. Now I
decide because the players have talked me into it to let someone surpass
this TK NPC. All of a sudden the rest of the team reaches near uselessness
because Mr. Power Gamer is the most powerful TK, not to mention knowing the
power gamers I have ran with, cover every skill the team has and then some
and normally better then the person who has just one or two of the skills.
This is the point where I as the GM am to say NO. So Mr. Power Gamer goes
back home and the next week comes back with another character. This time he
only has familiarities in the skills and his TK is even more powerful
because he had the points to do it. I say NO again, he scratches out some
stuff and adds the points to his TK. Now I say NO to the TK, he goes back
home. Meanwhile, the rest of my players are frustrated playing with him and
frustrated wasting game time because this guy is a power gamer. If I would
have stopped it and said, "Ok, give me your character sheet, I'll adapt him
to the right level for next game." The trouble will be done and over with.
He might not be happy, but the majority of the players will be including
myself. I will state that this is not an exaggeration. I have had this
happen on more than one occasion (way to many than I can say). Simply
asking the player not to play does not work since he is friends with half
the group and they want him there, just not his characters. I have had more
than one player do it. I try to let players design there own characters and
give them that freedom, but there comes a point where I pull the plug on it.
Ok, so I might have rambled on a bit here. My point is, exactly. Jean
Grey can be the most powerful TK and the PC can not unless of course I OK
it. If a player sits down and gives me an origin saying I'm the most
powerful TK on the planet, without ever telling me before hand then we have
to talk. Or of course, I just prove him wrong :)
Sparx
((END))
Take it easy and talk at you later.
Sparx
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:36:58 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender: gumball@mail.teleport.com
From: Gumball <gumball@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Invisible to touch attack
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>CL> How about a poisoned dart?
>CL> This would be a RKA with time delay and invisible to touch and maybe
>CL> sight.
>
>CL> The vicitim gets stung, doesn't notice,
>
>Ever been stung by a bee? It HURTS! And the stinger is quite visible.
>
>Any dart that penetrates sufficiently to inject sufficient quantities of a
>toxin as to be lethal is generally not going to go unnoticed.
>
How about an Armour Piercing mono-molecular tip with an anesthetic agent?
Ever been cut by an extremely sharp knife and not known it? Same principle.
Brian Hunt (Elemento)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:12:16 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender: gumball@mail.teleport.com
From: Gumball <gumball@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Invisible to touch attack
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At 09:36 AM 9/9/97 -0700, you wrote:
>CL> How about a poisoned dart?
>CL> This would be a RKA with time delay and invisible to touch and maybe
>CL> sight.
>
>CL> The vicitim gets stung, doesn't notice,
>
>Ever been stung by a bee? It HURTS! And the stinger is quite visible.
>
>Any dart that penetrates sufficiently to inject sufficient quantities of a
>toxin as to be lethal is generally not going to go unnoticed.
>
How about an Armour Piercing mono-molecular tip with an anesthetic agent?
Ever been cut by an extremely sharp knife and not known it? Same principle.
Brian Hunt (Elemento)
Or how about an energy weapon that uses it's beam as a delivery system. If
the beam gets through (force field, armor, etc.) for a certain amount of
damage the encased dart is delivered. Perhaps one would need to make their
to hit roll by half for the dart to be delivered, otherwise the beam hit and
did damage but the crucial second needed to hit with the dart didn't happen.
Force field hadn't been taken down sufficiently, the target moved out of the
beam at the crucial second, whatever.
B.H.
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 12:24:44 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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>>He never said what the rationale or purpose was for the character. He
>>certainly didn't say the character existed for the purpose of being
>>the best TK, and he most definitely did not say the purpose of the
>>character was to outshine or be better than the PCs.
>>
>
>
>but he does. how else will that particular bunch of hyper-compeditive
>players see him?
Well, they haven't seen him. You seem to keep missing that point, don't
you? They haven't even heard about him. Trying to quote you directly here,
but try to keep up with the arguement. He is a NPC that has yet in over 10
years of gaming entered the lives of the heroes. He is there as a part of
the backdrop for the world and Universe I have created and call my campaign.
Perhaps, when I get some less competitive players he will make an appearance.
>
>
>
>><snip>
>>> >I recall saying my NPCs never
>>> >outshine my PCs
>>>
>>> apart from when you specifically design them to do so, as you SAID you
>did with the force-tk-guy?
>>
>>He said nothing of the sort. He said that a PC couldn't be the most
>>powerful telekinetic because someone more powerful existed, he did
>>_not_ say that they were designed to outshine the PCs.
>>
>
>uh-huh? well, how's about we play "did noT!" "did SO!" for another 12 hours?
So what you are telling me here is when I say, something it is denial, or
misunderstanding, or I'm back tracking on myself, or losing track of the
arguement right? But when someone points things out to you, it is just a
childish game. I see. And to think I've been wasting my time arguing with
someone with this attitude. You were never wrong from the beginning in your
mind and you never were going to be proven wrong. Quick, 2 + 2 is 4, prove
it wrong, because after all, I did say it and we can't agree on anything
yet. He is saying I never said those things because I NEVER did say those
things. And he isn't the only one who has a grasp on what I've been saying
during this thread, so please re-examine my arguments and prove to me that I
said things I never said. But then again you could reword anything you like
to make it sound like I did can't you? Until you give me some personal
information on me and my players, I'd like if you would quit telling me what
I've said, done, think, implied, or do and likewise with my players. I have
enough problems already without someone telling me what I'm thinking :)
>>> >if anything they come to the PCs for help even if they are
>>> >more powerful in SOME areas.
>>>
>>> yes- and those are the areas that count. You already stated your
>assupption that
>>> 'powerful at one thing' leads to a power gamer
>>
>>Actually, he did not say that 'powerful at one thing' leads to a
>>power gamer, he only said that a particular power gamer started by
>>pushing the limits in one thing and went on from there. Not the same
>>thing.
>>
>
>he stated that his observations only dealt with his players, hence his own
>concept of powergamers is the one being disgussed.
And in case you missed again, (gee I seem to be repeating that a lot) I
never came up with the label power gamer for any of my players, it was when
4 - 6 other players came to me individually and complained about one players
character being a power gamer or too powerful or out of balance with the
game that gave me the concept of what a power gamer is. I didn't label
people power gamers with a random roll of a dice.
Sparx
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:42:11 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: 24 DEX
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At 01:49 AM 9/9/97 -0500, Vox Ludator! wrote:
>At 01:07 AM 9/9/97 -0400, William G Geiger wrote:
>>Contrary to David Fair's Power Gamer, I think a 24 DEX is handy. The
>>Hero poll revealed that the average PC DEX is 23. 24 DEX goes first.
>
>Which just goes to show you're (probably) not a Power Gamer. After all, a
>26 DEX also goes first, and a REAL Power Gamer can find a way to squeeze a
>26 DEX for the same cost as the 24. :]
Wimps.
You want Powergaming? Come face my 38 DEX!!! ;-]
---
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Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:42:12 -0700 (PDT)
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From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Costs END to turn off (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate
in Cha
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At 02:40 PM 9/4/97 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>Brian Wong wrote:
>>>
>>> >One sort of power that isn't intrinsically in the rules is
>>> >a power that costs END to turn it OFF.
>>>
>>>
>> Or how about costs End to not turn on.
>
>I think you're talking about the same thing...
Somehow I missed the earlier parts of this thread (not surprising, with
the problems my modem's been having; that's why I'm doing this HUGE packet
from the Library today).
However, as a House Rule, I've allowed characters to have "Always On"
without necessarily having to take "Zero END Persistent." This represents
the Power that has to be turned off at an END cost.
>>Growth, Shrinking, Desolid, Invis, Force Field, Damage Shield, Stretching
>>Density Increase, Flight, Tunneling, Shape Change, Telepathy, etc...
>>
>> All other these have in genre examples where the hero has to
>>concentrate or pay energy to not be under their effects.
>> One well known example is/was Kitty Pride of X-Men. She was desolid
>>unless she willed herself solid.
I know this is someone else's, but it's hard to let pass: when I was
reading X-Men Kitty (aka Sprite aka Arial aka Shadowcat) was normally solid,
but turned Desolid. I don't know if this has changed, though.
---
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Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:42:14 -0700 (PDT)
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From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
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At 11:39 AM 9/4/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>>>>> "GH" == Guy Hoyle <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> writes:
>
>GH> If they didn't like the rules, why did they resurrect them for HSA 1?
>
>Why did Hero print the HSA1 at all? To make money.
Reality check: Hero hasn't printed *anything* to make money. If they
had, I've little doubt that they would've given up long ago and concentrated
on their *real* jobs, and the whole Hero System would be a fond memory.
RPG publishing is not, on the whole, a big money-making venture for
anyone (that's notwithstanding T$R, of course).
---
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Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:42:15 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Extradimensional Bases
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 07:15 PM 9/4/97 -0400, William G Geiger wrote:
[Switched around to make the order of things correct]
>On Thu, 4 Sep 1997 17:48:10 -0400 (EDT) Eric Burns
><burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> writes:
>>I was wondering how one might construct an extradimensional base.
>>For example, Dr. Aether can teleport by moving through a small pocket
>>dimension. He can also transport himself directly into this pocket
>>dimension, which is his base (where he keeps his scientific equipment
>>and such). How would I build this base (what levels of location and
>>visibility would be necessary), and how could I make certain that Dr.
>>Aether could transport to his base no matter where he is?
>A Few Costs for Base in Pocket Universe
>
>10 Location: Distant
>25 Modifier: (Extradimensional)Space
> 1 Memorized location for teleport (your PC pays for this directly, not
>a Base item)
On that last item, I don't think you'd need the memorized location. Just
an XDM with the Dimension defined as Dr. Aether's base should do the trick.
And I think I'd add 5 more points to go from outer space to
extradimensional space; after all, it's harder to be attacked by space aliens.
---
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Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:42:26 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Invisible to touch attack
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At 11:07 PM 9/9/97 +0100, Chris Lynch wrote:
>How about a poisoned dart?
>This would be a RKA with time delay and invisible to touch and maybe
>sight.
>
>The vicitim gets stung, doesn't notice, then drops dead some (weeks/months/y
>ears) later... and nobody knows why.
>
>TTFN from Chris!
>http://www.lynch1.demon.co.uk
I dunno if I'd make it invisible to touch; those things can really sting!
But it's an interesting idea nonetheless.
---
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Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:42:28 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD?
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At 07:09 AM 9/3/97 -0500, Earl Kwallek wrote:
> Which is why I give people desirable ranges for all important
>stats/abilities. For example:
> *Note: it is allowed to exceed these ranges, with corresponding
> weaknesses in other areas....
>
>
> Attacks 50-75 active pts 60 Avg
> Defense 20-45 PD/ED 30 Avg
> r Defense 10-45 15 Avg for Non-Bricks
>
> DEX 18-28 23 Avg
> SPD 4-6 5 Avg
I have a handout with the same type of information, but with different
ranges for different character types. Interestingly, even though none of my
players have seen this thing yet, everyone falls well into that range.
I think I've just been blessed with really cool players. (Now if only I
can get it all together....)
---
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Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:42:29 -0700 (PDT)
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From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Mind Control: Single Command
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At 01:35 PM 9/8/97 -0500, Sparx wrote:
>Ok, a quick question here. I have always understood the ruling on Mind
>Control: Single Command to mean that the player defined the Single Command
>when constructing the character and it could never be changed. This is how
>I and my players have always played and it has never been questioned. Well,
>up until last night when I had a new player with mind control: single
>command. Of course, I could always declare it is our house rule, but I want
>the official ruling here. He seems to think the Single Command ruling means
>he can only do, "Hit Bad Guy!" as opposed to what he refers to as Multiple
>Commands, "Hit Bad Guy, Pick him up, throw him out the window, jump down on
>him and beat on him more." I see this as being wrong, because it would be
>just as simple to say Single Command, "Fight Bad Guy" then you have to mess
>with all sorts of problems like is the command you gave him just one or did
>you put two into in a sly way? Discussing this with my player for some time
>after the game, I told him that I would turn it over to the list since my
>ruling seemed unfair to him and I could see his point, but he would accept
>it if it turned out my ruling was correct. So, could someone please clear
>matters up here. Thanks and talk at you later.
Your ruling is indeed correct. The wording in the HSR is indeed a little
vague, but *all* of the published characters with this Limitation have the
command defined when the Power purchased.
What your player wanted to do was get a Limitation for the way Mind
Control is supposed to work by default. (If a player tried to give Multiple
Commands for a Mind Control in my game, I'd call for a Roll with each!)
---
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Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:42:30 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Question on Images
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At 09:35 PM 9/4/97 -0500, Devan wrote:
>I have a question concerning the Images power. I am toying with the idea of
>creating a character who can manipulate Images, and would like to be able to
>affect the 'touch' sense group. Is this permissible?
Touch is the Neglected Sense in the Hero System. Almost nothing is given
regarding the sense of Touch, possibly because the designers just forgot
about it, or possibly because they didn't want to open a can of carniverous
worms.
>The book states that Images "...cannot cause any physical effects and are
>totally intagible." Am I reading this too literally, or is it simply meant
>to imply that images cannot cause physical damage? After all, if the
>statement is taken literally, then the images can't have odors, make sounds,
>or even hmmm... visibly appear, since all of these phenomena are "physical
>effects".
Images cannot cause physical damage or create any type of non-sensory
physical phenomenon. This basically means that Images can not only not
cause damage (including Flash damage), it can't create a barrier. Thus
Images vs Touch couldn't make it seem as though a wall was someplace that it
wasn't, or create a table for someone to put a cup of coffee onto.
However, Images vs Touch could change the *apparent* temperature, make it
seem as though something had just passed close by (air currents), play
tricks with Spatial Awareness that's based on Touch, make an object feel
like it has a texture other than what it actually has, or similar effects.
>I realize that Mental Illusions can seem real enough to cause physical
>damage, but I don't wish to go this route. Note that I'm not trying to
>"bend" the rules here by creating a character that can cause damage with
>Images. I simply want the character to be able to create illusions that
>also affect the sense of touch, or better yet, seem to affect that sense,
>which is all that matters.
I hope my comments help. YMMV.
---
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Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 15:28:18 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: 24 DEX
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>>Which just goes to show you're (probably) not a Power Gamer. After all, a
>>26 DEX also goes first, and a REAL Power Gamer can find a way to squeeze a
>>26 DEX for the same cost as the 24. :]
>
> Wimps.
> You want Powergaming? Come face my 38 DEX!!! ;-]
Nah. DEX 30 is the good one. Usually under (or just over - whine, wheedle,
bribe) the GM's campaign limits (try getting 38...yurg), even numbers for
OCV/DCV and skill rolls, plus you don't have to spend messy numbers to up
your SPD. And you're bound to go first almost every time. Of course, 29 is
very nice as well, but GMs are usually wise to the point break tricks. Take
30 and it throws them off :-).
The real power gamer is the one who can do it without being labelled as such
:-).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Guns-ablazin', fu-fightin', spell-chuckin', rubber-monster-stompin' ACTION!"
-John comments on Feng Shui
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Costs END to turn off (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 13:10:42 -0700 (PDT)
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>
> At 02:40 PM 9/4/97 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
> >Brian Wong wrote:
>
> I know this is someone else's, but it's hard to let pass: when I was
> reading X-Men Kitty (aka Sprite aka Arial aka Shadowcat) was normally solid,
> but turned Desolid. I don't know if this has changed, though.
Yes. It changed sometime around when she left X-Men for Excalibur.
Don't know if it ever went back to the old way, but I do know it was like that at that time.
--
Rook
Also known as Arcady on #herochat and #Fuzionchat in DALnet IRC
herochat is a channel for discusion of the Hero system
Fuzionchat is for dicussion of Fuzion (C:NM, BGC, et all)
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Also, check out the new version of Villians & Vigilantes at
http://illusionmachines.com/personal/jeff/vandv.html
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
MMDF-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at punt-2.mail.demon.net
Subject: Re: Oil Slick
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 23:00:30 +0100
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This seems an over complicated way of saying "Use martial throw with the
Ranged advantage"
TTFN from Chris!
http://www.lynch1.demon.co.uk
----
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
To: champ-l@omg.org
Date: 05 September 1997 03:06
Subject: Re: Oil Slick
> Okay - I've stayed out of the oil slick as a DEX drain/suppress
>thread 'til now...
>
> However, the DEX drain it not the right mechanic here. If Bowhunter
>is standing, about to shoot his patented EverFly arrows, and Slick
>decides to throw an oil patch at his feet it will not effect Bowhunter at
>all. But modeling it as a DEX drain reduces his OCV because he happens to
>be standing in a puddle of oil.
>
> For an Oil slick to be effective, it can only be used on a moving
>target.
>
> IMO, the better way to do an oil slick (or ice patch, etc.) is to
>use a combination of Martial Throw, Telekinesis, AOE, and Trigger
>(running or walking faster than 1"/phase in the AOE).
> Using Martial Throw ensures that that the movement/momentum of the
>target is used against him, TK allows this to be pulled off at range, AOE
>lets it affect an area instead of a single target, and trigger forces it
>to do nothing to characters who are able to leap/fly/tunnel/etc around
>the target, or to those who simply are moving very carefully/not at all.
> Using the DEX drain, a character with clinging cannot use that power
>to keep from falling, a standing marksman is both less likely to hit and
>more likely to be hit, and there are numerous other problems.
>
>The popularity of Windows surged in 1995, when |
>Microsoft began shipping Windows 95, which | David A. Fair
>included many innovations that the Macintosh | SDS International
>had introduced 10 years earlier. | dfair@sdslink.com
> - Reuters, Friday, July 18, 1997 |
>
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Invisible to touch attack
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 23:07:01 +0100
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How about a poisoned dart?
This would be a RKA with time delay and invisible to touch and maybe
sight.
The vicitim gets stung, doesn't notice, then drops dead some (weeks/months/y
ears) later... and nobody knows why.
TTFN from Chris!
http://www.lynch1.demon.co.uk
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 17:20:39 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Extradimensional Bases
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At 03:28 PM 9/9/97 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>Bob Greenwade wrote:
>> And I think I'd add 5 more points to go from outer space to
>>extradimensional space; after all, it's harder to be attacked by space
aliens.
>
>Hmm... Well, I think that may be campaign dependent. There are no space
>aliens in my current campaign, but there are a honking lot of
>extradimensional demons.
>
>Also, you all seem to be in agreement that it should be Distant. But if the
>character who owns it has XDM, so he can get back to the city instantly, is
>this really accurate? The cost for distance seems to be to keep people away
>from the base... how many other people have XDM? It might cost more...
>but you seemed to cover that with the 5 extra points.
>Keep in mind Dr. Aether is blowing points on just being able to travel
>there. I, personally, would try and cut him a break, especially if it were
>in conception. YMMV.
I'd go along with that YMMV. OTOH, the XDM could be held by the base
itself, at least if it was a Gate (and possibly otherwise)
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 23:25:30 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions)
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Hmmm. This is actually a decent construction. Gee, Rat, didn't
expect to see you applying the rules in non-standard ways.
> Time for some lateral thinking: use Images as a guideline for building a
> new power. Why? Why not. The mechanics -- not SFX! -- are closest to
> what seems to be desired. 10 points buys you a 1 Hex "slick" area; anyone
> entering it must make a Dexterity roll. 10 points buys you a cumulative -1
> penalty to that roll. Increasing the area follows the standard +1/4=2x
> progression.
>
> Characters with the Acrobatics skill are much better at keeping their
> balance than those without. Such characters may use their Acrobatics skill
> instead of Dexterty to retain their footing, with a +5 bonus to their
> rolls.
Hmmm. Don't know if I'd allow such a large bonus, but that could
be worked around.
> Perversely, before you start adding penalties, the cost is the same as
> Change Environment, and has pretty much exactly the same effect.
But it allows for negatives to that DEX roll, where CE does not.
This is something that deserves playtesting, though I may keep with the
flight/superleap, UAO. No point in a new power when an old one works
fine. [grin]
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 23:26:47 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions)
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> Here's another idea, for those, myself included, who tend to prefer not
> creating new Powers, for the ice or oil slick; 2d6 Minor Transformation,
> thin layer of air to <ice/oil> slick, 2" radius (7 hexes), 40 Active
> Points. Now you can consider Lims. such as Charges and No Range.
Hmmmm. This does create the affect, and the GM would rule on what
the actual combat effects would be. However, if the player wants more
control over the power, he's out of luck.
-Tim Gilberg
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:41:25 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Oil Slick
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Archie wrote:
>There is a problem with what you said. The strength of the TK representing
>the marbles need only be strong to support the weight of the character, after
>all isn't the TK being used to overcome the weight of the person walking over
>the marbles. Strength cannot be used to overcome that unless they have
>"Clinging" and use the clinging while on the floor.
>
>I would write-up marbles as so:
>20 STR TK
> Area Effect, one hex(+1/2)
> Continuous(+1)
> Uncontrolled(+1/2)
> 0 Endurance Cost(+1/2)
> Inobvious Accessable Focus(-1/2)
> Charges [2], recoverable(-1)
> Dexterity Roll to avoid effect(-1/4)
>
I think there's a problem with what *you* are saying. The TK will either
have to Strike, Grab, or Throw the character (OCV v. DCV), and this is the
reason it's STR will need to be high. Plus, some super-slippery substances
are supposed to be able to overcome Clinging (no friction oil used on
SpiderMan, at least in the cartoon). And, even with your reasoning, why do
HEAVY guys not slip? Just 'cause you weigh more than 4x normal human,
doesn't mean you would (necessarily) just sink through the oil/no friction
zone/ice.
- Jerry
PS- You wouldn't have to pay for 0 END if it has charges, right?
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 07:58:31 -0500 (CDT)
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From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Hero Chat...
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Hey all, remember the other day when I said I was looking for an IRC for
Champions? Well, now there is one. For those of you with IRC access you
can find it on DALnet at #herochat. Hope to see some of you there sometime.
Take it easy and talk at you later.
Sparx
====================================================
Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Fusionchat and herochat
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:47:22 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: fuzion@pjh.org
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>
> Rook wrote:
>
> > Just to let everyone know, there's a chat group on DALnet IRC now
> > called
> > #Fuzionchat
> > for discussion of Fuzion.
> > And of course there's still #herochat for discussion of the
> > herosystem.
> > Rook
> > Also known as Arcady on #herochat and #Fuzionchat in DALnet IRC
> > herochat is a channel for discusion of the Hero system
> > Fuzionchat is for dicussion of Fuzion (C:NM, BGC, et all)
>
>
> Rook;
> I am new to this chat stuff how do I go about finding it?
Ok, start by going to
http://www.mirc.com/
There you can download an IRC chat program.
Once you've got it, you use it to connect to an IRC
Server. You'll want one of the DALnet ones.
the best one is DALnet, Sunnyvale. AKA mindijari.
If you have further questions or can't get it to work, give me another
note.
Rook
rook@infinex.com
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:12:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions)
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I just rejoined the list, and am risking redundancy by coming in late to a
conversation I've evidently missed most of, but since splippery effects
are one of my pet peeves, I have to ask - has anyone reposted my modified
Change Environment power this time around? Is anyone interested in seeing
it? If someone hasn't seen it, my version of CE was created and modified
in the course of a previous discussion on this topic, and seemed to meet
with some favorable response. (And naturally with some unfavorable
response as well!)
From: CptPatriot@aol.com
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 13:24:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Oil Slick
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ratinox@peorth.gweep.net said:
>That works fine in a campaign where there is a Strength cap; simply buy
>more TK than that and you have something that works. In a superheroic
>campaign, however, it becomes hideously expensive to make this work. The
>Hulk stepping on some marbles *should* fall over; but he will shrug off 20
>STR TK without blinking. 100 STR TK is the level you need to be reliable,
>but now you are looking at a 450 Active Point power, with a real cost of
>around 70.
There is a problem with what you said. The strength of the TK representing
the marbles need only be strong to support the weight of the character, after
all isn't the TK being used to overcome the weight of the person walking over
the marbles. Strength cannot be used to overcome that unless they have
"Clinging" and use the clinging while on the floor.
I would write-up marbles as so:
20 STR TK
Area Effect, one hex(+1/2)
Continuous(+1)
Uncontrolled(+1/2)
0 Endurance Cost(+1/2)
Inobvious Accessable Focus(-1/2)
Charges [2], recoverable(-1)
Dexterity Roll to avoid effect(-1/4)
Base: 30 points
Active: 75 points
Real: 27 points
What's your opinion?
Archie
CptPatriot@aol.com
<A HREF="mailto:cptpatriot@aol.com">cptpatriot@aol.com</A>
<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/cptpatriot">http://members.aol.com/cptpatriot<
/A>
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Vehicles and bases
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 19:59:25 +0100
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Maybe I have a mental block, maybe I just can't find this in the rule book
or perhaps (Gasp...) it has never been written down.
Will someone please remind me what happens (or at least what they do) when
a base or vehicle gets destroyed? It is a case of independance and the
points are just lost... or will the base/vehicle "rise again" for the next
adventure?
Apologies for being blatantly dull but none of my PC's have ever had a base
or vehicle (they are prefer fly by night characters.. and who can blame
them even with a SPD 12 dusting must still be a bore)
TTFN from Chris!
http://www.lynch1.demon.co.uk
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Oil Slick
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>>>>> "C" == CptPatriot <CptPatriot@aol.com> writes:
C> There is a problem with what you said. The strength of the TK
C> representing the marbles need only be strong to support the weight of
C> the character,
No, because the instant the TK hits, a Strength vs. Strength contest is
rolled. If the target rolls more Body than the TK, the TK fails and can do
nothing. Most bricks will be able to shrug off a 20 Strength TK grab with
their casual Strength.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions)
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
TRG> Hmmm. This is actually a decent construction. Gee, Rat, didn't
TRG> expect to see you applying the rules in non-standard ways.
Me neither. :)
>> Characters with the Acrobatics skill are much better at keeping their
>> balance than those without. Such characters may use their Acrobatics skill
>> instead of Dexterty to retain their footing, with a +5 bonus to their
>> rolls.
TRG> Hmmm. Don't know if I'd allow such a large bonus, but that could
TRG> be worked around.
Read the description of Acrobatics: characters with the skill usually do
not need to roll at all.
>> Perversely, before you start adding penalties, the cost is the same as
>> Change Environment, and has pretty much exactly the same effect.
TRG> But it allows for negatives to that DEX roll, where CE does not.
TRG> This is something that deserves playtesting, though I may keep with the
TRG> flight/superleap, UAO. No point in a new power when an old one works
TRG> fine. [grin]
So, what is the reasonably common defense or set of defenses?
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From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Oil Slick
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 20:12:29 +0100
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Stainless Steel Rat said:
Now you are dealing with attacker's OCV vs. defender's DCV, which is even
worse than STR vs. STR, not to mention the fact that putting Advantages on
Skills is not a good idea to begin with.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
Actually I had considered this.
The attackers OCV part simulates the attacks ability to "throw" the ice/oil
slick/spiky balls/marbles/melted chocolate under the oncoming attack.
Now for DCV. A character with a high DCV is basically more adept at moving
in combat, thus making himself a more difficult target to hit. Doesn't it
stand to reason that a character who was more agile in combat might also
have good balance. Many martial artists and professional fighters would
tell you that balance is the key to everything. A good fighter would
therefore have good balance..
And why, in your opinion, is it not a good idea to put advantages/disadvanta
ges on skills?
TTFN from Chris!
http://www.lynch1.demon.co.uk
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Invisible attacks/beestings
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 20:15:15 +0100
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Stainless Steel Rat said:
Ever been stung by a bee? It HURTS! And the stinger is quite visible.
Any dart that penetrates sufficiently to inject sufficient quantities of a
toxin as to be lethal is generally not going to go unnoticed.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
The reason that wasp and bee stings hurt is because they are acidic/alkaline
(I can't remember which but you can take th esting awy by neutralising the
sting..)
And who says that my toxin is not strong that even a minute doesage of it
is enough to kill?
Remember poisons do not have to be injested to kill, contact with the skin
is often enough.
TTFN from Chris!
http://www.lynch1.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 15:04:28 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions)
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> TRG> Hmmm. This is actually a decent construction. Gee, Rat, didn't
> TRG> expect to see you applying the rules in non-standard ways.
>
> Me neither. :)
I won't make a snide comment about us agreeing here, really.
> TRG> Hmmm. Don't know if I'd allow such a large bonus, but that could
> TRG> be worked around.
>
> Read the description of Acrobatics: characters with the skill usually do
> not need to roll at all.
I know what it says, I'm just saying I might not agree with the
rules as written here. Heck, why not add a bonus for breakfall while we
are at it?
> TRG> But it allows for negatives to that DEX roll, where CE does not.
> TRG> This is something that deserves playtesting, though I may keep with the
> TRG> flight/superleap, UAO. No point in a new power when an old one works
> TRG> fine. [grin]
>
> So, what is the reasonably common defense or set of defenses?
You mean besides flying/gliding/SFX of not actually touching the
ground? Well, I in general say that a successful DEX roll at a negative
modifier proportional to the amount of flight/superleap will defend
against the effect. Also, depending on the SFX of the power, Clinging may
act as a defense. It really depends on the exact SFX of the attack --
give me an example, and I'll come up with the defenses.
-Tim Gilberg
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions)
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
TRG> I know what it says, I'm just saying I might not agree with the
TRG> rules as written here.
Just knowing the Acrobatics skill automatically provides a reliable
"defense" against what would be considered "normally" slippery surfaces.
Characters with the skill do not need to roll anything when they find
themselves in such situations; only those without the skill need to roll,
and they do so with no minus to Dexterity. So I figure that such a power
at a -0 penalty equates to "normally slippery". But looking at it this way
makes it extremely inconsistant: when does an Acrobatics roll become
required? I obviate the question by giving characters with the Acrobatics
skill a bonus that makes it practically impossible for them to fail at the
- -0 penalty level and requiring the roll (which becomes unnecessary because
they will not fail).
TRG> Heck, why not add a bonus for breakfall while we are at it?
Because Breakfall does not prevent one from falling down; it only lets one
get up quickly after falling down.
The bonus does not come from the power, it comes from the Acrobatics skill.
[...]
TRG> You mean besides flying/gliding/SFX of not actually touching the
TRG> ground? Well, I in general say that a successful DEX roll at a negative
TRG> modifier proportional to the amount of flight/superleap will defend
TRG> against the effect.
So, I ask again: how do you create a slick area with a -0 penalty? And how
do you determine what is a fair proportion between inches of movement and
penalty? And what about characters with Acrobatics vs. those that do not?
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Stainless Steel Rat\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 97 22:07:25
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Oil Slick
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On 07 Sep 1997 20:07:24 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
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>
>>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes:
>
>q> Example: Grond is fighting Ice Girl. Ice Girl creates a sheet of ice
>q> underneath Grond and he falls over. Grond forces his claws into the
>q> very rock beneath the ice, creating a handhold, and swings himself
>q> clear. But Ice Girl has already had time to flee.
>
>What is wrong with that is Seeker should be able to slide right across the
>ice with little problem, DEX machine that he is. If you do it with
>Entangle he cannot.
So? You just apply the appropriate limitations - have the PC be able to
escape on a DEX roll - (Body of Entangle) (-1/2) - if you want that.
Personally, I'd say that Seeker takes a pratfall and ends up on the
other side of the ice on his arse.
>q> I suppose you could also do it with Gliding: Uncontrolled (optional),
>q> AoE, UAO, Ranged, No Effect vs those standing still.
>
>UAO movement powers are a Bad Thing, because it is difficult to clearly
>define a reasonably common defense or set of defenses against them.
Agreed, but the power defined above is pretty self-limiting.
qts
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"William G Geiger\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 97 22:14:18
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions)
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On Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:37:04 -0400, William G Geiger wrote:
>Here's another idea, for those, myself included, who tend to prefer not
>creating new Powers, for the ice or oil slick; 2d6 Minor Transformation,
>thin layer of air to <ice/oil> slick, 2" radius (7 hexes), 40 Active
>Points. Now you can consider Lims. such as Charges and No Range.
Hey! Why'd you go and spoil things with a sensible suggestion? <g>
This is actually great, because it forces the problem onto the GM.
qts
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com>
Subject: RE: Oil Slick and Marbles
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 22:39:09 -0400
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SSR> That works fine in a campaign where there is a Strength cap; simply buy
SSR> more TK than that and you have something that works. In a superheroic
SSR> campaign, however, it becomes hideously expensive to make this work.
SSR> The Hulk stepping on some marbles *should* fall over; but he will shrug
SSR> off 20 STR TK without blinking. 100 STR TK is the level you need to be
SSR> reliable, but now you are looking at a 450 Active Point power, with a real
SSR> cost of around 70.
Player #1: "Puny marbles cannot stop Hulk!" My character flexes his mighty
toe muscles, using his Casual STR to break the marbles' TK Grab.
Player#2: That's absurd! You can't do that.
GM: Yes he can. TK is essentially STR used at range. A TK Grab can
always be broken by a successful STR vs. STR Roll.
Player #3: Shouldn't the Hulk simply crush the glass marbles underfoot?
According to The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe, the Hulk weighs--
Player #4: What's the Resistant Defense and BODY for glass marbles,
anyway?
Player #2: They're not glass. My CyberNinja character uses Teflon-coated
molybdenum-steel ball bearings for this gimmick--an Unbreakable Focus.
Player #3: That begs the question. Conceivably, the power shouldn't work
on characters with enough levels of Growth or Density Increase, or on
sufficiently massive vehicles. Your CyberNinja should take that as a
Limitation.
Player #4: How do you make a main battle tank fall down, anyway?
Player #2: Hey, can I rewrite my character sheet right now? I can apply
the point saved to my NND RKA adamantium tetsu bishi. Not even the
Hulk's feet can--
Player #1: "Hulk smash!"
Seriously, though, Stainless Steel Rat has a point. The mechanic for TK
as a slick surface is problematic when you go beyond tripping ordinary
mortals. Still, the description of the TK power is vague enough to warrant
arguments from players. A player might contend that, as matter of SFX,
a brick's STR cannot be used to break a TK hold, be it marbles, icy
ground, psychokinetic will, or a hypermagnetogravitic beam. The power
"Flight, Usable Against Others" can sidestep questions of a target's STR
when the attacker wants to toss the target around, but some players
might call this a kludge, not to mention yet another power that has
to be bought to simulate a telekinetic effect.
A kindly GM might let a player buy "Target's STR cannot be used to resist"
as an expensive Advantage on Telekinesis, or as a less costly Advantage
let the player define a different method or effect for resisting a TK hold
based on the power's SFX, such as a jamming counter-frequency for a
hi-tech TK power or an EGO vs. EGO contest for psychokinesis.
(Psychic marbles? Ectoplasmic ooze ?)
I'm inclined to fall back on Change Environment to represent some forms
of large slick surface, especially weather related, while Minor Transformation
can handle others. To a degree, it's a matter of taste. I've always
considered it a flaw in Change Environment that it can't be used for
more dramatic effects. Perhaps its cost can be graded in the way
Transformation is. Of course, Advantages can always be piled on to
represent a thick fog just shy of true Darkness that mandates Range
penalties on PER Rolls, or an ice sheet that imposes DEX rolls to
stay vertical.
Oh, and here are two shapeshifter tricks for walking on ice taken from
Roger Zelazny's Amber novel "Knight of Shadows." Reform your body
to have a lower center of gravity and be more stable. Or make your
feet big, broad, and spikey for better traction--but take your shoes
off first, or course.
Len Carpenter
redlion@voicenet.com
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 08:58:04 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: NND & Variable special effect
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SurturZ wrote:
>On 11 Sep 97 at 17:15, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au rhetorically
>propounded:
>> At 03:00 PM 9/11/97 +0000, you wrote:
>> >If I have an NND attack that also has variable special effects,
>> >should I be allowed to change the defense to the NND?
>>
>> yeesh, i'd say a doubling of advantage- like taking o end fer autofire-
>>is still in order, though i suppose it's up to how deadly the attack is. . .
>
>Well, being NND, and therefore doing no BODY, the answer to that is
>"not at all" :-)
>
>All up it is a +1.5 advantage... +.25 more than AVLD, which to me
>sounds reasonable. Desolid would still be a defense. Doesn't mean the
>GM has to allow it, I guess.
>
I would think that Variable Advantage, with a Limitation on the Advantage
(only for varying NNDs), along with the VSFX Advantage would cover it. That
comes out to... let's see...
EB 2d6, VSFX (+1/2), VADV (+2; Only for NNDs, -1): 25 Real, 35 Active, 10
Base. 3 END.
This way, it costs the same as SurturZ's answer, but costs END like
Michael's. And this is what is intuitive to me, before I've truly woken up. : )
- Jerry
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 13:19:34 +1000
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Subject: Re: Vehicles and bases
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At 09:16 AM 9/9/97 -0500, you wrote:
>At 07:59 PM 9/10/97 +0100, Chris Lynch wrote:
>>Maybe I have a mental block, maybe I just can't find this in the rule book
>>or perhaps (Gasp...) it has never been written down.
>>
>>Will someone please remind me what happens (or at least what they do) when
>>a base or vehicle gets destroyed? It is a case of independance and the
>>points are just lost... or will the base/vehicle "rise again" for the next
>>adventure?
>
>Depends on your GM's philosophy. The phrasing of the rules for Perquisites
>implies strongly that Perks can be both gained and lost during play
>REGARDLESS of points. Which is to say that if the base or vehicle (being
>perks) are destroyed, they're just plain gone (like an Independent focus),
>but on the other hand the characters can reestablish these perks (or
>entirely different bases/vehicles) simply via roleplaying without points.
>
this seems to be valid- but it causes problems- basically i find that this discourages any player with a brain from bying a base f vehicel, especially a combat vehicle. For my varians ship combat rules, i allow a minimum return rate of points lost of 5 points for each one xp gained. These can be spent any way, tho the gm can place the normal restrictions on powers, ect. I call this a 'points-based' scale, and there are other limits, based around various things including the gm having even more of a say than usual on the creation process.
>--
>Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
>+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
>| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely. |
>+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
> Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
>
>
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 13:25:09 +1000
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Subject: Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions)
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At 09:37 AM 9/9/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Here's another idea, for those, myself included, who tend to prefer not
>creating new Powers, for the ice or oil slick; 2d6 Minor Transformation,
>thin layer of air to <ice/oil> slick, 2" radius (7 hexes), 40 Active
>Points. Now you can consider Lims. such as Charges and No Range.
>
> Aloha, WillGGeiger@juno.com
>
another idea- i thought of a new talent- bough with identical points- stuff to find weakness, which allow for wierd use of powers- basically on a sucessful roll the characcter can use a relevant power as a limited transform- with active points equal to the real cost of the power in question. The level of transform depends on what is being attempted, i don't think i would allow major ones. The penalty to the roll is based on how fammiliar and difficult the 'power stunt' is, and only minor 'trivial' effects can be done. Hence a hero with an ice entangle or ice blast can frost the floor, making it reasonably slippery, though it would probably only effect low-dex heros and normals.
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 13:36:07 +1000
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Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
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At 12:24 PM 9/9/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>>He never said what the rationale or purpose was for the character. He
>>>certainly didn't say the character existed for the purpose of being
>>>the best TK, and he most definitely did not say the purpose of the
>>>character was to outshine or be better than the PCs.
>>>
>>
>>
>>but he does. how else will that particular bunch of hyper-compeditive
>>players see him?
>
>Well, they haven't seen him. You seem to keep missing that point, don't
>you? They haven't even heard about him. Trying to quote you directly here,
>but try to keep up with the arguement. He is a NPC that has yet in over 10
>years of gaming entered the lives of the heroes. He is there as a part of
>the backdrop for the world and Universe I have created and call my campaign.
> Perhaps, when I get some less competitive players he will make an appearance.
>
but you just said that if a player wants to be most powerful TK then you mention the TK npc guy. .. . . .. .
>>
>>
>>
>>><snip>
>>>> >I recall saying my NPCs never
>>>> >outshine my PCs
>>>>
>>>> apart from when you specifically design them to do so, as you SAID you
>>did with the force-tk-guy?
>>>
>>>He said nothing of the sort. He said that a PC couldn't be the most
>>>powerful telekinetic because someone more powerful existed, he did
>>>_not_ say that they were designed to outshine the PCs.
>>>
>>
>>uh-huh? well, how's about we play "did noT!" "did SO!" for another 12 hours?
>
>So what you are telling me here is when I say, something it is denial, or
>misunderstanding, or I'm back tracking on myself, or losing track of the
>arguement right? But when someone points things out to you, it is just a
>childish game.
it is a case of dissagreement which cannot be disproven. I happen to think the person is wrong- he disagrees. That's it.
>I see. And to think I've been wasting my time arguing with
>someone with this attitude. You were never wrong from the beginning in your
>mind and you never were going to be proven wrong. Quick, 2 + 2 is 4, prove
>it wrong, because after all, I did say it and we can't agree on anything
>yet.
this is my point- 2 + 2 = 4, but fur of what? that cannot be t\determined, so all we are left with is out opinions.
>He is saying I never said those things because I NEVER did say those
>things. And he isn't the only one who has a grasp on what I've been saying
>during this thread, so please re-examine my arguments and prove to me that I
>said things I never said.
He agrees with you. Hence all your points about me aer equally valid about you.
>But then again you could reword anything you like
>to make it sound like I did can't you?
yes. You've found me out, i'm an evil genius and i live in a cave.
>Until you give me some personal
>information on me and my players, I'd like if you would quit telling me what
>I've said, done, think, implied, or do and likewise with my players. I have
>enough problems already without someone telling me what I'm thinking :)
>
so in other words, no-one can argue about anything, because only you know what's going on in your group? This is just another version of the "i'm always right because i'm
me" attitude you ascribe to me.
>>>
>>>Actually, he did not say that 'powerful at one thing' leads to a
>>>power gamer, he only said that a particular power gamer started by
>>>pushing the limits in one thing and went on from there. Not the same
>>>thing.
>>>
>>
>>he stated that his observations only dealt with his players, hence his own
>>concept of powergamers is the one being disgussed.
>
>And in case you missed again, (gee I seem to be repeating that a lot)
hmmm, i remember something about evidence existing at a convergent zone where lots of points come together in mutual support?
guess not.
>I
>never came up with the label power gamer for any of my players, it was when
>4 - 6 other players came to me individually and complained about one players
>character being a power gamer or too powerful or out of balance with the
>game that gave me the concept of what a power gamer is. I didn't label
>people power gamers with a random roll of a dice.
>
I didn't say you did- i just said that the term power gamer means different things to different people, and, as you mention incessantly, only your idea of a power gamer relates to your point. And once again- a democratic concept has nothing to do with the players motives- only to do with what motives you(the group) ascribed to him. But as i said, that's irrelevant because the issue relates to your deffinition, not mine.
>Sparx
>
>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 23:20:59 -0500 (CDT)
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From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?)
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>At 12:24 PM 9/9/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>>>He never said what the rationale or purpose was for the character. He
>>>>certainly didn't say the character existed for the purpose of being
>>>>the best TK, and he most definitely did not say the purpose of the
>>>>character was to outshine or be better than the PCs.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>but he does. how else will that particular bunch of hyper-compeditive
>>>players see him?
>>
>>Well, they haven't seen him. You seem to keep missing that point, don't
>>you? They haven't even heard about him. Trying to quote you directly here,
>>but try to keep up with the arguement. He is a NPC that has yet in over 10
>>years of gaming entered the lives of the heroes. He is there as a part of
>>the backdrop for the world and Universe I have created and call my campaign.
>> Perhaps, when I get some less competitive players he will make an appearance.
>>
>
>but you just said that if a player wants to be most powerful TK then you
mention the TK npc guy. .. . . .. .
>
We've gone into this many times and I'm done with this part of the
arguement. Believe what you want on it, ok. Your personal beliefs will not
effect me in any way, shape or form.
>>He is saying I never said those things because I NEVER did say those
>>things. And he isn't the only one who has a grasp on what I've been saying
>>during this thread, so please re-examine my arguments and prove to me that I
>>said things I never said.
>
>He agrees with you. Hence all your points about me aer equally valid about you.
Uh, sure, I don't follow your logic here.
>
>>But then again you could reword anything you like
>>to make it sound like I did can't you?
>
>yes. You've found me out, i'm an evil genius and i live in a cave.
Really, I'm an evil genius, but I live in the back of a mini-van, really
much cozier in than the old stone floor, though it gets bumpy from time to
time when the owner takes it out. :)
>>Until you give me some personal
>>information on me and my players, I'd like if you would quit telling me what
>>I've said, done, think, implied, or do and likewise with my players. I have
>>enough problems already without someone telling me what I'm thinking :)
>>
>
>so in other words, no-one can argue about anything, because only you know
what's going on in your group? This is just another version of the "i'm
always right because i'm
>me" attitude you ascribe to me.
No, you are capable of arguing with me, just quit putting words in my mouth,
telling me what I do, or telling me what I implied when I said something.
Take my arguement at face value. Don't tell me how my players behave or
what they know when you don't know them. That is what I'm saying. That's
all really, and truthfully the arguement is over. I've decided there is no
win here for me at least. I yield, there are other things to talk about and
this constant repeating is getting stagnant. If you care to have yet
another discussion I'm up for it, but I'm tired of this one.
>>I
>>never came up with the label power gamer for any of my players, it was when
>>4 - 6 other players came to me individually and complained about one players
>>character being a power gamer or too powerful or out of balance with the
>>game that gave me the concept of what a power gamer is. I didn't label
>>people power gamers with a random roll of a dice.
>>
>
>I didn't say you did- i just said that the term power gamer means different
things to different people, and, as you mention incessantly, only your idea
of a power gamer relates to your point. And once again- a democratic concept
has nothing to do with the players motives- only to do with what motives
you(the group) ascribed to him. But as i said, that's irrelevant because the
issue relates to your deffinition, not mine.
I think my head is spinning after this last one. I'm not sure what you are
trying to say here. I'm right because it is my experience I'm talking about
but it is irrelevant that I'm talking about my experience? I don't know.
Well, to wrap this up and hopefully kill this thread. It has been fun, I'm
not being sarcastic. I like a challenge and you have been more than that.
I tire of this and call it a cop out or anything else you can come up with,
I quit. This is getting no where and growing stale. Lastly, I'm not going
to have access to a computer for about a week or less if I'm lucky so it
really won't matter if you do reply, I can't. You can continue this
arguement though if you would like. You are good at filling in my words for
me, just let me know how it turns out in the end. Take it easy and talk at
you later.
Sparx
====================================================
Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
From: CptPatriot@aol.com
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 01:27:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Marbles {was Re: Oil Slick}
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>I would write-up marbles as so:
>20 STR TK
> Area Effect, one hex(+1/2)
> Continuous(+1)
> Uncontrolled(+1/2)
> 0 Endurance Cost(+1/2)
> Inobvious Accessable Focus(-1/2)
> Charges [2], recoverable(-1)
> Dexterity Roll to avoid effect(-1/4)
>
>Base: 30 points
>Active: 75 points
>Real: 27 points
I forgot the Cost Endurance limitation & that TK is already a constant
power.
>No, because the instant the TK hits, a Strength vs. Strength contest is
>rolled. If the target rolls more Body than the TK, the TK fails and can do
>nothing. Most bricks will be able to shrug off a 20 Strength TK grab with
>their casual Strength.
I feel that there should be no STR vs STR contest.
I know that what your wrote is the strictly by the rules answer,
but in this particular case, going strictly by rules doesn't follow the
spirit
what is going on.
If the person caught in the area effect is trying to resist then what is he
resisting
against.
I believe I had this same conversation with Ratinox regarding a
hi-G/anti-gravity field about a year ago.
From: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net (Mike Lehmann)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 22:51:30 -0800
Organization: Terminal BBS (403)327-9731
Subject: Oil Slick (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions)
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-=> Quoting Stainless Steel Rat to Mike Lehmann <=-
ML> Usually a BODY-only entangle, with each point of BODY translating to a
ML> -1 on a forced DEX check. It only affects the single hex, and cannot
ML> create a "wall".
SSR> So, how does one create a slippery surface with no DEX roll penalty,
SSR> which is the norm for "normal" slippery surfaces?
Buy it "No BODY" as well as "No DEF", or you could roll all ones? <g>
SSR> An oil spill or a coating of ice/snow on the ground does not have
SSR> significant Body; what Body it has is the ground underneath. So I do
SSR> not believe that Entangle, even in variation, is a good power to use as
SSR> a basis for this.
Regardless, we have used it in game sessions and it works well. Simply
ignore any attempt to "destroy" it unless it could logically work (such
as melting the ice away).
SSR> Time for some lateral thinking: use Images as a guideline for building
SSR> a new power. Why? Why not. The mechanics -- not SFX! -- are closest
SSR> to what seems to be desired. 10 points buys you a 1 Hex "slick" area;
SSR> anyone entering it must make a Dexterity roll. 10 points buys you a
SSR> cumulative -1 penalty to that roll. Increasing the area follows the
SSR> standard +1/4=2x progression.
SSR> Characters with the Acrobatics skill are much better at keeping their
SSR> balance than those without. Such characters may use their Acrobatics
SSR> skill instead of Dexterty to retain their footing, with a +5 bonus to
SSR> their rolls.
SSR> Perversely, before you start adding penalties, the cost is the same as
SSR> Change Environment, and has pretty much exactly the same effect.
I see what you're getting at. Maybe such an power could simulate a
high-gravity field (STR-check), or maybe even poisonous gas (CON-check)?
mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net - - - - - Justice Krewe / Enigma Watch GM
- - - - - - http://www.dfw.net/~aronhead/justice_krewe.html - - - - - -
... Now I've gone too far, where do I go now?
~~~ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
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From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 17:15:30 +1000
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Subject: Re: NND & Variable special effect
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At 03:00 PM 9/11/97 +0000, you wrote:
>If I have an NND attack that also has variable special effects,
>should I be allowed to change the defense to the NND?
>
>My thinking is that I should, provided the VSFX is the +1/2 level
>(rather than the +1/4 ice spear/ice hammer/fire hammer/fire spear
>level)
>
>SurturZ
>
>--------------------------------------------------
>David Streeter <surturz@zip.com.au>
>Synchrotech Software
>Pager: Dial 016020 & Quote Pager #247689 to operator
>
yeesh, i'd say a doubling of advantage- like taking o end fer autofire- is still in order, though i suppose it's up to how deadly the attack is. . .
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 17:16:58 +1000
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Subject: Re: Oil Slick (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions)
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At 10:51 PM 9/10/97 -0800, you wrote:
> SSR> An oil spill or a coating of ice/snow on the ground does not have
> SSR> significant Body; what Body it has is the ground underneath. So I do
> SSR> not believe that Entangle, even in variation, is a good power to use as
> SSR> a basis for this.
>
>Regardless, we have used it in game sessions and it works well. Simply
>ignore any attempt to "destroy" it unless it could logically work (such
>as melting the ice away).
>
hows about bying an advantage simmilar to 'attack vs limited defence'?
> SSR> Time for some lateral thinking: use Images as a guideline for building
> SSR> a new power. Why? Why not. The mechanics -- not SFX! -- are closest
> SSR> to what seems to be desired. 10 points buys you a 1 Hex "slick" area;
> SSR> anyone entering it must make a Dexterity roll. 10 points buys you a
> SSR> cumulative -1 penalty to that roll. Increasing the area follows the
> SSR> standard +1/4=2x progression.
>
> SSR> Characters with the Acrobatics skill are much better at keeping their
> SSR> balance than those without. Such characters may use their Acrobatics
> SSR> skill instead of Dexterty to retain their footing, with a +5 bonus to
> SSR> their rolls.
>
> SSR> Perversely, before you start adding penalties, the cost is the same as
> SSR> Change Environment, and has pretty much exactly the same effect.
>
>I see what you're getting at. Maybe such an power could simulate a
>high-gravity field (STR-check), or maybe even poisonous gas (CON-check)?
>
>mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net - - - - - Justice Krewe / Enigma Watch GM
>- - - - - - http://www.dfw.net/~aronhead/justice_krewe.html - - - - - -
>
>... Now I've gone too far, where do I go now?
>~~~ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
>
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>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 97 08:55:06 GMT
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Steve McGinness)
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions)
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At 10:51 PM 10/9/97 -0800, Mike Lehmann wrote:
SSR = Stainless Steel Rat; ML = Mike Lehmann
> SSR> Time for some lateral thinking: use Images as a guideline for building
> SSR> a new power. Why? Why not. The mechanics -- not SFX! -- are closest
> SSR> to what seems to be desired. 10 points buys you a 1 Hex "slick" area;
> SSR> anyone entering it must make a Dexterity roll. 10 points buys you a
> SSR> cumulative -1 penalty to that roll. Increasing the area follows the
> SSR> standard +1/4=2x progression.
I would also suggest the following:
1 - Some kind of penalty depending on the speed of the character entering
the oil slick etc, something like -1/2" of movement?
2 - If a character falls then he takes damage as per knockback, which makes
high speed entries to oil slicks near walls particularly dangerous....
3 - Where appropriate the power might be built with a limited form of
continous on it. For example an oil slick may adhere to the footwear of the
hero entering meaning that he would continue to have difficulties in
retaining balance. Obviously this would wear off over time, continous,
uncontrollable, and there I get stuck ablative or something....
> SSR> Characters with the Acrobatics skill are much better at keeping their
> SSR> balance than those without. Such characters may use their Acrobatics
> SSR> skill instead of Dexterty to retain their footing, with a +5 bonus to
> SSR> their rolls.
I'm in favour of this. Speed is the killer in this situation, people with
acrobatics should be able to negotiate an oil slick easily, and even
quickly, but the speed penalties would help reduce this if they really
wanted to push it.
ML>I see what you're getting at. Maybe such an power could simulate a
ML>high-gravity field (STR-check), or maybe even poisonous gas (CON-check)?
I think this is a mechanic where Hero does tend to break down. It's all to
do with it being reasonable to couch the attack in terms of a physical
attack, but it doesn't affect physical defences. Another example of this is
drugs and gas attacks, obvious to see that it should be a DEX based attack,
but not so obvious what the defences should be or how they should be
applied. Perhaps this would help circumvent what I see as a major black hole
in the rules.
It must be if even Rat is willing to try way out solutions! :-)
Stephen McGinness
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:37:08 +0000
Subject: Re: NND & Variable special effect
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On 11 Sep 97 at 15:00, David Streeter wrote:
> If I have an NND attack that also has variable special effects,
> should I be allowed to change the defense to the NND?
NO. Allowing a single character two different NND attacks is
normally forbidden in Champions, and you want an infinite number of
NND attacks?
Not in my world.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:37:09 +0000
Subject: Re: Marbles {was Re: Oil Slick}
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net
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On 11 Sep 97 at 1:27, CptPatriot@aol.com wrote:
> I feel that there should be no STR vs STR contest.
> I know that what your wrote is the strictly by the rules answer,
> but in this particular case, going strictly by rules doesn't follow the
> spirit
> what is going on.
> If the person caught in the area effect is trying to resist then what is he
> resisting
> against.
I agree that there should be no STR vs STR contest, but there _is_.
To eliminate it, you are allowing a special effect to _severely_
advantage a power. A relatively weak TK now has the power to affect
people who are effectively immune to TKs that are twice as powerful.
Too big of a difference for SFX.
However, I have often wondered why STR would affect all TK, too. For
example, a TK that consists of a giant forcefield hand could be
broken by a STR roll, but a TK that consists of gravity fields or
other intangible forces should be resisted only in so far as the
strong character can grab objects or is pulled along the ground
rather than lifted.
I suggest a TK NND for effects that can be resisted only if the
character can grab or dig into something. This would be used for a TK
that could lift you into the air without mattering what your STR is,
but which, if it dragged you along the ground, you could resist by
planting your feet firmly. The defense could be flight and a STR roll
or grabbing something and making a STR roll. I also recommend that
this NND only be applied to TKs that cannot squeeze or punch.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:37:09 +0000
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions)
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On 11 Sep 97 at 19:52, Steve McGinness wrote:
> At 02:23 PM 11/9/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> >
> >You mean "sticky".
>
> I didn't want to use sticky because it wouldn't necessarily affect the next
> person to touch the first victim, unless of course the second person also
> entered the zone. Perhaps a modified sticky advantage then, limited to only
> one transfer....
It wouldn't be sticky, because sticky makes the power stick to others
not hit with it, not stick to the target. If it were sticky, then
anyone helping him to his feet would fall over, even if they weren't
in the area of effect.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
X-Sender: ghost@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 09:44:03 -0500
From: Bryce Berggren <ghost@softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Books in Champions Universe
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At 08:31 PM 9/11/97 GMT, Michael Adams wrote:
>
>
>Anyone know of anyone who is doing such an idea. Might be fun.
>
>To have your favorite Chmapions superhero come to life.
>
>Maybe a weekend serial could come from it.
>
>Why not, after all, whay does Marvel/Dc have all the fun. Opps Marvel is
>bankrupt, and in court last I heard. Well..
Well, you did ask why not ...
Because it's highly doubtful one could get any publisher to have enough
faith in the CU to back such projects; after all, not even Hero Games
themselves had faith in the CU's mass-market appeal, thus TNM. :-/
H. G.
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:50:25 +0000
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions)
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On 11 Sep 97 at 17:01, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> >>>>> "SM" == Steve McGinness <smcginn@csm.exeter.ac.uk> writes:
>
> SM> Thats right, but when you leave the slick or are expelled at speed onto
> SM> the road or into a wall uncontrolled then you are, again, going to be
> SM> in trouble. Uncontrolled spills are closest to KB damage in nature.
>
> More like a move-by or move through, I think.
Depends. The only reason why I can think that knockback does more
damage from impact than move-through is that knockback implies that
the character has no control. That would seem to apply in this
circumstance.
Besides, there is no rule for taking damage from a move-by or
-through from the ground you are passing over.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Comments: Authenticated sender is <surturz@mail.zip.com.au>
From: "David Streeter" <surturz@zip.com.au>
Organization: Synchrotech Software
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:00:49 +0000
Subject: NND & Variable special effect
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If I have an NND attack that also has variable special effects,
should I be allowed to change the defense to the NND?
My thinking is that I should, provided the VSFX is the +1/2 level
(rather than the +1/4 ice spear/ice hammer/fire hammer/fire spear
level)
SurturZ
--------------------------------------------------
David Streeter <surturz@zip.com.au>
Synchrotech Software
Pager: Dial 016020 & Quote Pager #247689 to operator
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:10:54 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Marbles {was Re: Oil Slick}
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> I feel that there should be no STR vs STR contest.
> I know that what your wrote is the strictly by the rules answer,
> but in this particular case, going strictly by rules doesn't follow the
> spirit
> what is going on.
> If the person caught in the area effect is trying to resist then what is he
> resisting
> against.
You can feel all you want here, but that doesn't cause the facts
of the matter to disappear. The power you are using to simulate the
effect brings in certain aspects, like the STR vs STR, which makes it a
poor choice. The answer is not to give it (major) free advantages but
to find a power that works better.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:13:42 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: NND & Variable special effect
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>
> All up it is a +1.5 advantage... +.25 more than AVLD, which to me
> sounds reasonable. Desolid would still be a defense. Doesn't mean the
> GM has to allow it, I guess.
Actually, if you can guess what SFX affect the desol, even that
isn't a defense. This is really a problematic power, as it does basically
tromp all over game balance. That, and I'd like to see some actual SFX.
-Tim Gilberg
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 23:15:19 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (Here we go again, my 2 penneth)
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John and/or Ron Prins wrote:
>Horrors! HORRORS! Man, if you value your sanity, DON'T go using adjustment
>powers on SPD!
> <snip>
>Which sucks beyond all reason for gameplay purposes. You gotta sit down and
>recalculate when the player can act again. Plus, what's good for the goose
>is good for the gander - imagine villians with 10D6 SPD Aid. So GoonMaster
>(SPD 4) spends his first two phases Aiding himself to 10 SPD, then spends
>his last 4 phases Aiding 4 goons to an average of +3 SPD. Yikes.
>
>Or Dispel vs. SPD. Most people won't have more than 50-60 points in SPD (all
>told, figured and bought up). So I buy a 20D6 SPD Dispel (60 points) and
>whammo, I've just removed _all_ of my opponant's chances to act (their SPD
>won't come back until their next phase, but they don't have a next
>phase...and Dispel doesn't recover in post-phase 12 like drain does...isn't
>that nice :->).
>
>Note: This is illegal, but I'll let someone else tell you why :-).
>
>Anyway, the implications of SPD Aid/Drain/Transfer/Suppress are just so
>nasty I don't let anyone near them. It's better for the game, as well.
>People can take being knocked out. But getting Drained to 0 SPD, fully
>concious, twiddling their thumbs is just too much.
>
>And note that your SPD Drain wouldn't effect DEX - so the character can't
>act at 0 SPD, but still has full DCV??? <scratch head>
>
I sez: OH BOY!!! MORE DRAIN STUFF!!!
Okay, you can't (unless the GM or House Rules allow) Dispel a
Characteristic, only Powers. Some House Rules allow you to do CHAs, and
they *are* listed *under* Powers, as a Power...
As far as recalculation of SPD, I'm not sure how *I'd* handle it, much less
how it would *officially* be done. When lowering your own SPD voluntarily,
the Character must declare so at _the_end_of_a_turn_. And then he could
drop his SPD to 2, if he wanted (usually used to drown less fast, although
it could also be used to keep your Force Field up longer in a
damaging-but-not-enough-to-get-through-my-Force-Field-Death-Trap-and-now-I-h
ave-to-be- rescued). I also saw something about variable SPD, for dealing
with a Multiform in which the forms had different SPDs, but I forget where.
Could've been on this list, last semester.
Feh. That doesn't really explain how to do it. Aw, well...
Also, the "Negative Characteristics" rules (I likes 'em more 'n more : )
from either Champs III or the HSA I state that SPD can't be Drained below 1.
: P 'Course, such as you, might not use them...
- Jerry
Comments: Authenticated sender is <surturz@mail.zip.com.au>
From: "David Streeter" <surturz@zip.com.au>
Organization: Synchrotech Software
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 17:57:23 +0000
Subject: Re: NND & Variable special effect
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On 11 Sep 97 at 17:15, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au rhetorically
propounded:
> At 03:00 PM 9/11/97 +0000, you wrote:
> >If I have an NND attack that also has variable special effects,
> >should I be allowed to change the defense to the NND?
>
> yeesh, i'd say a doubling of advantage- like taking o end fer autofire-
>is still in order, though i suppose it's up to how deadly the attack is. . .
Well, being NND, and therefore doing no BODY, the answer to that is
"not at all" :-)
All up it is a +1.5 advantage... +.25 more than AVLD, which to me
sounds reasonable. Desolid would still be a defense. Doesn't mean the
GM has to allow it, I guess.
SurturZ
--------------------------------------------------
David Streeter <surturz@zip.com.au>
Word of the unspecified time period: "littoral" - pertaining to the shore
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions)
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "SM" == Steve McGinness <smcginn@csm.exeter.ac.uk> writes:
SM> 1 - Some kind of penalty depending on the speed of the character
SM> entering the oil slick etc, something like -1/2" of movement?
Why? Extremely agile characters could use the slick to maintain speed,
sliding right across it. One does not start having problems on slick
surfaces until it comes time to change velocity (speed or direction).
SM> 2 - If a character falls then he takes damage as per knockback, which
SM> makes high speed entries to oil slicks near walls particularly
SM> dangerous....
No. If you trip and fall, how fast you are moving has little to do with
how much you get hurt unless you stop moving -- that is, friction against
the ground causes most of the damage. On a slick surface there is little
friction, so when one falls one does not stop moving horizontally, and the
damage is mostly from the vertical impact.
SM> 3 - Where appropriate the power might be built with a limited form of
SM> continous on it.
It is already continuous.
SM> For example an oil slick may adhere to the footwear of the hero
SM> entering meaning that he would continue to have difficulties in
SM> retaining balance.
You mean "sticky".
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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:58:23 -0700
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: NND & Variable special effect
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At 03:00 PM 9/11/97 +0000, David Streeter wrote:
>If I have an NND attack that also has variable special effects,
>should I be allowed to change the defense to the NND?
>
Eeek!
No, that would create a power with the advantage NDAA:No Defense At All.
'Hmmm...I'm up again Gas Mask Man, so my NND Gas Attack is useless. I'll
change it to an NND Radiation attack, defense is force field. Yeah. That's
the ticket.'
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 01:14:43 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: XP Awards (was Re: NND & Variable special effect)
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SurturZ wrote:
>This is my replacement character in a campaign I've been playing in
>for about 3 years now. We're up to around 300pt characters (although
>"Artifice" is built on 275). A testimony to the slow growth of
>characters in Champions (25 XP in three years? Sheesh! I guess we
>only play around four sessions a year).
>
>How many XP does everyone hand out? I usually award about 1XP/hr real
>time, with bonuses/penalties for roleplaying & ingenious play.
>
>(I think I'm rather generous with XP).
>
I think most on the list would agree (about the generous bit). I asked
relatively the same question when I got on the list last semester, and I got
some pretty good guidelines. Give me some time, and I'll sort through the
responses and post the highlights.
I really only GM, the one character that a player has is up to 324
(+3 unspent). And he's been playing him under me for 4-5 years (he started
at 250). This is the player who Solo adventures *all* the time. Then
again, it's only been 4-5 game *months*... <sigh>
The last games I ran at home (before I came back to ol' vt.edu) I
gave out 1 XP/session, to standardize the characters a bit. No one (but the
guy I mentioned above : ) seemed to mind.
- Jerry
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 97 19:52:42 GMT
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Steve McGinness)
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions)
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At 02:23 PM 11/9/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>>>>> "SM" == Steve McGinness <smcginn@csm.exeter.ac.uk> writes:
>SM> 1 - Some kind of penalty depending on the speed of the character
>SM> entering the oil slick etc, something like -1/2" of movement?
>
>Why? Extremely agile characters could use the slick to maintain speed,
>sliding right across it. One does not start having problems on slick
>surfaces until it comes time to change velocity (speed or direction).
But this isn't really true to the nature of the medium. In a comic, perhaps
only 4 colour but comics all the same, you expect someone entering a slippy
patch to have trouble keeping their feet. It is true to the genre to give
them a hard time. As you said, anyone with acrobatics would have little
problem given their +5 bonus and extremely dextrous characters would also
negotiate the hazard. It would provide problems for those less dextrous
people who move at speed.
>SM> 2 - If a character falls then he takes damage as per knockback, which
>SM> makes high speed entries to oil slicks near walls particularly
>SM> dangerous....
>
>No. If you trip and fall, how fast you are moving has little to do with
>how much you get hurt unless you stop moving -- that is, friction against
>the ground causes most of the damage. On a slick surface there is little
>friction, so when one falls one does not stop moving horizontally, and the
>damage is mostly from the vertical impact.
Thats right, but when you leave the slick or are expelled at speed onto the
road or into a wall uncontrolled then you are, again, going to be in
trouble. Uncontrolled spills are closest to KB damage in nature.
>SM> 3 - Where appropriate the power might be built with a limited form of
>SM> continous on it.
>
>It is already continuous.
>
>SM> For example an oil slick may adhere to the footwear of the hero
>SM> entering meaning that he would continue to have difficulties in
>SM> retaining balance.
>
>You mean "sticky".
I didn't want to use sticky because it wouldn't necessarily affect the next
person to touch the first victim, unless of course the second person also
entered the zone. Perhaps a modified sticky advantage then, limited to only
one transfer....
Or am I misremembering the rule??
Stephen
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From: Michael.Adams@october.com (Michael Adams)
Date: 11 Sep 97 20:10:16 GMT
Subject: Re: The Name Game
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Ancient Martial Master
(grin).
Bruce Lee?
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From: Michael.Adams@october.com (Michael Adams)
Date: 11 Sep 97 20:12:14 GMT
Subject: Re: The Name Game
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Fire Ghost
sort of a tongue in cheek, but..
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From: Michael.Adams@october.com (Michael Adams)
Date: 11 Sep 97 20:22:52 GMT
Subject: You know your a HERO player when
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Someone says SPD, and you know it is Speed, and you know it is not a drug.
Mike Adams
into humor of late.
It helps make the belly gurgle less.
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From: Michael.Adams@october.com (Michael Adams)
Date: 11 Sep 97 20:27:18 GMT
Subject: Re: 4 color principles
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But it is a good point. Do you want realism, or do you want game play.
If all you want is game play, then do the standard TV schtick and make them all
employees of some extremely large, and mysterious coproration/governmental
project, and leave it at that. But if you want realism, make them something
more realistic. Such as a courier for UPS or something, nice if you have super
speed or like.
Neither rain, nor sleet, or nasty villiens will stop Postal Man, faster than
overnight delivery, capable of dodging photon bolts, able to leap tall
children. It is Postal Man, stamps are extra.
Mike Adams
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From: Michael.Adams@october.com (Michael Adams)
Date: 11 Sep 97 20:31:10 GMT
Subject: Books in Champions Universe
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Anyone know of anyone who is doing such an idea. Might be fun.
To have your favorite Chmapions superhero come to life.
Maybe a weekend serial could come from it.
Why not, after all, whay does Marvel/Dc have all the fun. Opps Marvel is
bankrupt, and in court last I heard. Well..
Mike Adams
Maybe have a contest to see who can provide the newest super hero, villien,
gadget, etc for the comic series.
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions)
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>>>>> "SM" == Steve McGinness <smcginn@csm.exeter.ac.uk> writes:
SM> But this isn't really true to the nature of the medium. In a comic,
SM> perhaps only 4 colour but comics all the same, you expect someone
SM> entering a slippy patch to have trouble keeping their feet.
This is completely situational. Just as frequently the heroes use the
environment to their advantage, performing "impossible" feats. Flavor is,
therefore, outside of the bounds of the power's definition.
SM> It is true to the genre to give them a hard time. As you said, anyone
SM> with acrobatics would have little problem given their +5 bonus and
SM> extremely dextrous characters would also negotiate the hazard.
Please note that I did not say this. I said that characters with
Acrobatics get the bonus, nothing else. If you do not have Acrobatics you
use Dexterity and you do not get the bonus.
[...]
SM> Thats right, but when you leave the slick or are expelled at speed onto
SM> the road or into a wall uncontrolled then you are, again, going to be
SM> in trouble. Uncontrolled spills are closest to KB damage in nature.
More like a move-by or move through, I think.
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 21:16:34 +0000
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (Here we go again, my 2 penneth)
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On 12 Sep 97 at 23:13, Chris Lynch wrote:
> OK, how about this.
>
> ?d6 Drain against Speed
> Ranged (+1/2)
> Area effect=1 hex (+1/2)
> Only effects wlakers/runners etc (-1/2)
> 2 charges (-1 1/4)
>
> This only costs 2.5 points per die of drain.
That's a pretty good one. However, its effect is to cancel phases
only, and doesn't have effects such as falling down, or actions that
are performed with difficulty. It also doesn't cover reduced
abilities that _could_ still succeed, such as swinging a fist, which
may be hampered but are not _necessarily_ disabling.
Personally, I think that a new power would be a good idea. A DEX
Suppress would work perfectly (using proper Advantages,
Limitations, and the Hero System Almanac/ Champions III rules), but
it is too expensive.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 21:16:35 +0000
Subject: Re: HeroMaker
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net
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On 12 Sep 97 at 23:15, Chris Lynch wrote:
> Anyone know how I can get hold of a copy of HeroMaker in the UK?
>
> TTFN from Chris!
> http://www.lynch1.demon.co.uk
Order it by credit card or check directly from Hero Games. For
details, check out www.herogames.com.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: You know your a HERO player when
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 18:15:15 -0400 (EDT)
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> Someone says SPD, and you know it is Speed, and you know it is not a drug.
>
> Mike Adams
> into humor of late.
> It helps make the belly gurgle less.
>
>
When you ask everyone you meet how many "Total Points" they are "built
on".
When you refer to your glasses as your "OIF Focus for Enhanced Normal
Sight".
-Eric (who is not on SPD)
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Oil Slick
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>>>>> "CL" == Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk> writes:
CL> The attackers OCV part simulates the attacks ability to "throw" the
CL> ice/oil slick/spiky balls/marbles/melted chocolate under the oncoming
CL> attack.
Seeker scatters a handful of caltrops in one end of a corrider. I do the
same with a practically identical handful of caltrops down the other end.
Five minutes later you walk through the corrider.
Now tell me honestly that Seeker's caltrops are going to be more effective
than mine because his OCV of 10+ is better than my 3 or maybe 4.
[...]
CL> And why, in your opinion, is it not a good idea to put advantages/
CL> disadvantages on skills?
One, because skills are not powers. Two, because even if skills are
treated as powers, putting advantages on skills makes them extremely
powerful for the cost compared to real powers.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
\ Earth, presumably from outer space.
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 21:16:38 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: NND & Variable special effect
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>
> NO. Allowing a single character two different NND attacks is
> normally forbidden in Champions, and you want an infinite number of
> NND attacks?
Of course, that said, I don't totally agree with that rule. It is
really up to character conception and cohesion. However, for most
practical purposes one is hard pressed to come up with more than one that
fits a given SFX, except maybe for a gadgeteer-type.
> Not in my world.
I've got to agree here, however.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 23:00:13 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (Here we go again, my 2 penneth)
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>OK, how about this.
>
>?d6 Drain against Speed
>Ranged (+1/2)
>Area effect=1 hex (+1/2)
>Only effects wlakers/runners etc (-1/2)
>2 charges (-1 1/4)
>
>This only costs 2.5 points per die of drain.
Horrors! HORRORS! Man, if you value your sanity, DON'T go using adjustment
powers on SPD!
>To justify this, think about oil slicks this way.
>Vera the Villianous runs across Simon Slickboy's oil slick. She gets hit
>with (lets say) 8 dice of Speed drain against her SPD of 4.
> Lets say that Simon gets a median roll with these dice of 8*3=15. This
>knocks her speed down to 1.6, which is played as 1. If this happens on
>phase 3 (Veras first of the turn) she "looses" her next two phases as she
>slips and slides around.
Which sucks beyond all reason for gameplay purposes. You gotta sit down and
recalculate when the player can act again. Plus, what's good for the goose
is good for the gander - imagine villians with 10D6 SPD Aid. So GoonMaster
(SPD 4) spends his first two phases Aiding himself to 10 SPD, then spends
his last 4 phases Aiding 4 goons to an average of +3 SPD. Yikes.
Or Dispel vs. SPD. Most people won't have more than 50-60 points in SPD (all
told, figured and bought up). So I buy a 20D6 SPD Dispel (60 points) and
whammo, I've just removed _all_ of my opponant's chances to act (their SPD
won't come back until their next phase, but they don't have a next
phase...and Dispel doesn't recover in post-phase 12 like drain does...isn't
that nice :->).
Note: This is illegal, but I'll let someone else tell you why :-).
Anyway, the implications of SPD Aid/Drain/Transfer/Suppress are just so
nasty I don't let anyone near them. It's better for the game, as well.
People can take being knocked out. But getting Drained to 0 SPD, fully
concious, twiddling their thumbs is just too much.
And note that your SPD Drain wouldn't effect DEX - so the character can't
act at 0 SPD, but still has full DCV??? <scratch head>
>Next turn she goes up to speed 2.1, so she gets an
>extra action this turn (as speed 2) but is still not sure of her footing.
>And so on and so forth.
>
>This not only gives a decent simulation of what happens when you get hit
>with an oilslick (happens down my street all the time...) but also defers
>in favor of highspeed/ high dex characters who will regain their footing
>faster.
But it doesn't allow a high DEX character to avoid/ignore it completely -
something that is common with the high-agility characters.
Also by using drain you get the common aftereffect that, even after
>the villian has gotten out of the actual oil slick they still keep falling
>over because they boots of evil are still coated with oil. It also
>simulates what happens when fast moving vehicles hit oil slicks.
No it doesn't. A running drain might - and even that doesn't simulate the
loss of control.
Throw is a mechanism that allows both:
A.) bearing the person to the ground, and
B.) tossing them a ways
which is generally what the 'oil slick' does. So a throw-only TK is best in
my books - if the person was moving at a good clip, it's a running throw,
otherwise, a standing throw. The real problem here is cost (continious, AE
telekinesis isn't cheap), but such is life.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Guns-ablazin', fu-fightin', spell-chuckin', rubber-monster-stompin' ACTION!"
-John comments on Feng Shui
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 23:08:27 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: NND & Variable special effect
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> Magic using character. Magic is a great special effect. It can
> explain almost anything :-)
Not always well explained, however.
> My character is a Green Lantern style magic user, except with a staff
> instead of a ring.
>
> He has a 6d6 EB +2 variable advantage, OAF. Some would call variable
> advantage a "no defense at all" attack. IMHO much less effective than
> a 24d6 EB, which costs the same active points.
Of course, you wouldn't get either in my campaign, considering my
60 Active Point limit. I happen to like balance quite a bit.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 03:08:04 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: You know your a HERO player when
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Eric Burns wrote:
> (Mike Adams wrote:)
> >
> > Someone says SPD, and you know it is Speed, and you know it is not a drug.
> >
>
> When you ask everyone you meet how many "Total Points" they are "built
> on".
>
> When you refer to your glasses as your "OIF Focus for Enhanced Normal
> Sight".
>
> -Eric (who is not on SPD)
...Instead of covering a friends eyes and saying "Guess Who?" you say
"Make a perception roll"
...During a snowball fight, you start cataloging who has a high DEX
and who has skill levels.
...You refer to your friends' and family's idiosyncracies as Psych
Lims
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 03:22:06 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: XP Awards (was Re: NND & Variable special effect)
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> SurturZ wrote:
> >This is my replacement character in a campaign I've been playing in
> >for about 3 years now. We're up to around 300pt characters (although
> >"Artifice" is built on 275). A testimony to the slow growth of
> >characters in Champions (25 XP in three years? Sheesh! I guess we
> >only play around four sessions a year).
> >
> >How many XP does everyone hand out? I usually award about 1XP/hr real
> >time, with bonuses/penalties for roleplaying & ingenious play.
> >
> >(I think I'm rather generous with XP).
> >
I base me XP awards partly on your basic list (did they win? did they
play in-character? etc.) and partly on how much fun they brought to the
game.
After a session - or a multi-session adventure(I never give out XP
until an adventure is completed) - I generally award 3 XP per session
(sessions last 4-6 hours, with 3-4 hours of legitimate gaming actually
getting done), to all characters involved, then go through individually
and award 1 or 2 more XP's to each player who brought an extra measure
of fun to the game beyond simply playing their character.
On occasion, when a player makes a particularly astute observation
(or a seemingly obvious one that EVERYONE else is missing with a
vengeance), I will throw out an 'instant karma' XP on the spot, as I
will if a player does or says something particularly unexpected or
uniquely '4-coloured' which brings renewed energy to the game and/or
group. I've had one session where a player earned 6 or 7 points as
compared to the others' 3 or 4. The results of the overall enjoyment of
the game to everyone was worth it.
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 07:24:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Slick
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-9,11-12
From: willggeiger@juno.com (William G Geiger)
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Aloha, WillGGeiger@juno.com
?d6 Suppress against DEX
Area effect=1 hex (+1/2)
0 END (+1/2)
Only effects walkers/runners etc (-1/2)
Not vs. successful DEX roll, targets w/Acrobatics @ +5 (-1 1/2)
This costs less than 7 points per die of drain, and can be used
infinite times.
I don't think it is too expensive.
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 06:47:19 -0600
From: Curtis Gibson <Mhoram@apeleon.net>
Subject: Re: NND & Variable special effect
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Filksinger wrote:
>
> On 11 Sep 97 at 15:00, David Streeter wrote:
>
> > If I have an NND attack that also has variable special effects,
> > should I be allowed to change the defense to the NND?
>
> NO. Allowing a single character two different NND attacks is
> normally forbidden in Champions, and you want an infinite number of
> NND attacks?
>
> Not in my world.
In agreement here. However the sticky problem of NNDs and Pools comes
up, and you get most of the same problems. The solution we have found is
to allow multiple NNDs, with different Ds in general, but all of them
must share at least _one_ Defence. The indidual NNDs have varient Ds
dependent of the special effect of the attack, and the 'over Defence' is
dependant of the Special Effect of the structure (Pool, Variable Effect
ect) that allow the 'more than one NND'.
Someone with a magic pool could have a number of special spells (ie a
Vacuum spell (ie D= LS Breathe, a Heat Spell D= LS Heat ect) but all the
NNDs have Any power D (which works well for a magic type). Thus a
character could have one defence and stop all the NNDs the character
has...
Admittidly this is a bit of a kludge but it has helped so I thought I'd
throw it out...
-
-Mhoram
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your
two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 06:54:22 -0600
From: Curtis Gibson <Mhoram@apeleon.net>
Subject: Re: You know your a HERO player when
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Captain Spith wrote:
>
> Eric Burns wrote:
> > (Mike Adams wrote:)
> > >
> > > Someone says SPD, and you know it is Speed, and you know it is not a drug.
> > >
>
> >
> > When you ask everyone you meet how many "Total Points" they are "built
> > on".
> >
> > When you refer to your glasses as your "OIF Focus for Enhanced Normal
> > Sight".
> >
> > -Eric (who is not on SPD)
>
> ...Instead of covering a friends eyes and saying "Guess Who?" you say
> "Make a perception roll"
>
> ...During a snowball fight, you start cataloging who has a high DEX
> and who has skill levels.
>
> ...You refer to your friends' and family's idiosyncracies as Psych
> Lims
Guilty of this one... 8)
>
> --
> -Capt. Spith
... you tell someone waiting, 'Be back in a segment'.
... any movie seen is instantly catalogued as Wild Ninja Hero,
Streetlevel, ect.
... You refer to getting your second wind as 'taking a post 12'
--
-Mhoram
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your
two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright
Comments: Authenticated sender is <surturz@mail.zip.com.au>
From: "David Streeter" <surturz@zip.com.au>
Organization: Synchrotech Software
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:12:09 +0000
Subject: Re: NND & Variable special effect
Reply-to: surturz@zip.com.au
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On 11 Sep 97 at 21:16, Tim R. Gilberg rhetorically propounded:
> > NO. Allowing a single character two different NND attacks is
> > normally forbidden in Champions, and you want an infinite number of
> > NND attacks?
>
> Of course, that said, I don't totally agree with that rule. It is
> really up to character conception and cohesion. However, for most
> practical purposes one is hard pressed to come up with more than one that
> fits a given SFX, except maybe for a gadgeteer-type.
Magic using character. Magic is a great special effect. It can
explain almost anything :-)
My character is a Green Lantern style magic user, except with a staff
instead of a ring.
He has a 6d6 EB +2 variable advantage, OAF. Some would call variable
advantage a "no defense at all" attack. IMHO much less effective than
a 24d6 EB, which costs the same active points.
SurturZ
--------------------------------------------------
David Streeter <surturz@zip.com.au>
Synchrotech Software
Pager: Dial 016020 & Quote Pager #247689 to operator
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:38:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: You know your a HERO player when...
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On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, David Fair wrote:
> ... you compile lists of people you meet whose names would sound good
> on your PC's & NPC's (maybe that one's just me?)
Nope, been there done that!
Of course, then there is the case that every time you walk into a shopping
mall you thin kabout how cool it would be to stage a superhero battler
here... (Of course anyone who play Feng Shui also starts thinking about
how cool it would be to have Chow Yun-Fat come diving through the plate
glass swindow over there in slow motion with Both Guns Blazing...)
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
X-Sender: piapps@cyberspace.org (Unverified)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 08:00:48 -0700
From: Nic Neidenbach <naneiden@iswest.com>
Subject: Re: You know your a HERO player when...
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At 10:38 AM 9/12/97 -0400, you wrote:
>On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, David Fair wrote:
>
>Of course, then there is the case that every time you walk into a shopping
>mall you thin kabout how cool it would be to stage a superhero battler
>here... (Of course anyone who play Feng Shui also starts thinking about
>how cool it would be to have Chow Yun-Fat come diving through the plate
>glass swindow over there in slow motion with Both Guns Blazing...)
Been there and done that. :)
On another note, I found some of my ShadowFist cards the other day, I still
think any game with a card called 'Bag Full of Guns' has got to be cool. :)
-Nic
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| naneiden@iswest.com |
| Justice, Like Lightning, Thunderbolts! |
| http://www.iswest.com/~naneiden/comics/thunder.html |
| Costumed Heroines |
| http://www.iswest.com/~naneiden/comics/index.html |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
Subject: Re: You know your a HERO player when...
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 10:10:00 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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Mike Adams wrote:
> Someone says SPD, and you know it is Speed, and you know it is not a drug.
Eric Burns wrote:
> When you ask everyone you meet how many "Total Points" they are "built
> on".
> When you refer to your glasses as your "OIF Focus for Enhanced Normal
> Sight".
Captain Spith wrote:
> ...Instead of covering a friends eyes and saying "Guess Who?" you say
> "Make a perception roll"
> ...During a snowball fight, you start cataloging who has a high DEX
> and who has skill levels.
> ...You refer to your friends' and family's idiosyncracies as Psych
> Lims
Curtis Gibson wrote:
> ... you tell someone waiting, 'Be back in a segment'.
> ... any movie seen is instantly catalogued as Wild Ninja Hero,
> Streetlevel, ect.
> ... You refer to getting your second wind as 'taking a post 12'
David Fair Adds His 2 cents:
... you look for places to attach a swingline as you walk from your
office to the Metro (or your car).
... you compile lists of people you meet whose names would sound good
on your PC's & NPC's (maybe that one's just me?)
... you trip on a crack in the sidewalk you say "I'm OK, just failed
my DEX roll"
... you know what a photographic memory is _really_ called. (Eidetic
Memory, in case you don't have one)
The popularity of Windows surged in 1995, when |
Microsoft began shipping Windows 95, which | David A. Fair
included many innovations that the Macintosh | SDS International
had introduced 10 years earlier. | dfair@sdslink.com
- Reuters, Friday, July 18, 1997 |
Comments: Authenticated sender is <surturz@mail.zip.com.au>
From: "David Streeter" <surturz@zip.com.au>
Organization: Synchrotech Software
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:10:14 +0000
Subject: Re: NND & Variable special effect
Reply-to: surturz@zip.com.au
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On 11 Sep 97 at 23:08, Tim R. Gilberg rhetorically propounded:
>
> > Magic using character. Magic is a great special effect. It can
> > explain almost anything :-)
>
> Not always well explained, however.
No explanation necessary. "It's magic!" :-)
> > He has a 6d6 EB +2 variable advantage, OAF. Some would call variable
> > advantage a "no defense at all" attack. IMHO much less effective than
> > a 24d6 EB, which costs the same active points.
>
> Of course, you wouldn't get either in my campaign, considering my
> 60 Active Point limit. I happen to like balance quite a bit.
This is my replacement character in a campaign I've been playing in
for about 3 years now. We're up to around 300pt characters (although
"Artifice" is built on 275). A testimony to the slow growth of
characters in Champions (25 XP in three years? Sheesh! I guess we
only play around four sessions a year).
How many XP does everyone hand out? I usually award about 1XP/hr real
time, with bonuses/penalties for roleplaying & ingenious play.
(I think I'm rather generous with XP).
David
--------------------------------------------------
David Streeter <surturz@zip.com.au>
Synchrotech Software
Pager: Dial 016020 & Quote Pager #247689 to operator
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:55:07 -0400
Subject: You know you're a HERO player when...
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From: willggeiger@juno.com (William G Geiger)
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Every time you research,
your sweetie says it is for gaming purposes.
P.S. She's right, of course
Instant Karma: I like those Karma points earned through exceptional
roleplaying
or the like, awarded on the fly and allowing a player to change his own
die roll to a '1' or a '6'. I would permit it to be spent this way
during the same game session only. If it was not spent, it becomes an
XP.
Aloha, WillGGeiger@juno.com
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:55:47 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Books in Champions Universe
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 09:44 AM 9/11/97 -0500, Bryce Berggren wrote:
>At 08:31 PM 9/11/97 GMT, Michael Adams wrote:
>>
>>
>>Anyone know of anyone who is doing such an idea. Might be fun.
>>
>>To have your favorite Chmapions superhero come to life.
>>
>>Maybe a weekend serial could come from it.
>>
>>Why not, after all, whay does Marvel/Dc have all the fun. Opps Marvel is
>>bankrupt, and in court last I heard. Well..
>
>Well, you did ask why not ...
>
>Because it's highly doubtful one could get any publisher to have enough
>faith in the CU to back such projects; after all, not even Hero Games
>themselves had faith in the CU's mass-market appeal, thus TNM. :-/
It wasn't lack of faith that prevented the Hero guys from trying to get
the Champions Universe developed into other media forms; it was the fact
that they didn't own the rights to all of its institutions, PRIMUS being
arguably the most notable case (as well as anything written by Aaron
Allston). I asked Steve P. point-blank in an email once, and that's what
he told me (and it makes perfect sense).
Personally, I'm just wishing that they could've negotiated something
with the copyright owners and/or done something a little more drastic. I
can't even get a straight answer from Steve about whether the old CU is
going to be supported in Hero Plus materials.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:19:06 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Books in Champions Universe
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
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At 09:44 AM 9/11/97 -0500, you wrote:
>At 08:31 PM 9/11/97 GMT, Michael Adams wrote:
>>
>>
>>Anyone know of anyone who is doing such an idea. Might be fun.
>>
>>To have your favorite Chmapions superhero come to life.
>>
>>Maybe a weekend serial could come from it.
>>
>>Why not, after all, whay does Marvel/Dc have all the fun. Opps Marvel is
>>bankrupt, and in court last I heard. Well..
>
>Well, you did ask why not ...
>
>Because it's highly doubtful one could get any publisher to have enough
>faith in the CU to back such projects; after all, not even Hero Games
>themselves had faith in the CU's mass-market appeal, thus TNM. :-/
>
>
>H. G.
>
>
hmm, okay, i vow to publish a champions comic in 2008 as well. Yeesh am *I* confident *l*
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:34:39 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: NND & Variable special effect
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At 03:10 PM 9/12/97 +0000, you wrote:
>How many XP does everyone hand out? I usually award about 1XP/hr real
>time, with bonuses/penalties for roleplaying & ingenious play.
>
>(I think I'm rather generous with XP).
>
>David
As well as normaL stuff(3-4 for the adventure + 1 here and there), i give out (argh) combat xp, based on a straight combat points over combat points
fraction. I found i had to do this to get a lot of the more progressive characters moving (i.e. new mutant types)
>--------------------------------------------------
>David Streeter <surturz@zip.com.au>
>Synchrotech Software
>Pager: Dial 016020 & Quote Pager #247689 to operator
>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:42:59 +1000
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: You know your a HERO player when
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At 03:08 AM 9/12/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Eric Burns wrote:
>> (Mike Adams wrote:)
>> >
>> > Someone says SPD, and you know it is Speed, and you know it is not a drug.
>> >
>
>>
>> When you ask everyone you meet how many "Total Points" they are "built
>> on".
>>
>> When you refer to your glasses as your "OIF Focus for Enhanced Normal
>> Sight".
>>
>> -Eric (who is not on SPD)
>
> ...Instead of covering a friends eyes and saying "Guess Who?" you say
>"Make a perception roll"
>
> ...During a snowball fight, you start cataloging who has a high DEX
>and who has skill levels.
>
> ...You refer to your friends' and family's idiosyncracies as Psych
>Lims
>
... you get annoyed in a fun run if your second wind doesn'y come ever 12 seconds. .
... nobody else seems to understand what "ouch! nnd me will ya!" means....
... you don't understand how people can learn to play th piano without first saving a bunch of orphans from a burning building or at least beating up a thug
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:56:35 +1000
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: You know your a HERO player when
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At 06:54 AM 9/12/97 -0600, you wrote:
> ... you tell someone waiting, 'Be back in a segment'.
>
> ... any movie seen is instantly catalogued as Wild Ninja Hero,
>Streetlevel, ect.
>
true story, one of my d&d groups took one look at hero rules and started describing crappy martial arts movies in terms of dc, mostly wild negatives;
'ooohh! davis carridine did his 360 crescent! what's that, a negative 600? '
Thankfully the practice did not spread to our actual training. . *l*
> ... You refer to getting your second wind as 'taking a post 12'
doh! beat me to it. . .
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:58:03 +1000
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: You know your a HERO player when...
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At 08:00 AM 9/12/97 -0700, you wrote:
>On another note, I found some of my ShadowFist cards the other day, I still
>think any game with a card called 'Bag Full of Guns' has got to be cool. :)
>
hmmm, i'm sure we're all aware of pc's with a vpp bought as this? *g* lot's of fun!
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:04:47 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
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At 09:16 AM 9/9/97 -0500, Vox Ludator! wrote:
>At 11:42 AM 9/9/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>> Reality check: Hero hasn't printed *anything* to make money. If they
>> had, I've little doubt that they would've given up long ago and
>> concentrated on their *real* jobs, and the whole Hero System would be a
>> fond memory.
>
>Return reality check: if Hero didn't give two bits about the money, they
>wouldn't have bothered cashiering the HERO system for one they feel can
>bring in a bigger market (Fuzion). Arguably, the HERO system IS just a fond
>memory.
Well, at least they didn't call it "AfterHero" (the reference there
being to AfterM*A*S*H and After Breakfast).
>> RPG publishing is not, on the whole, a big money-making venture for
>>anyone (that's notwithstanding T$R, of course).
>
>You don't have to make big money to make money. The question isn't whether
>HSAs rake in the dough as whether it raked in more dough than not doing them.
There is that. But there's also the artistic purpose of putting out a
book of any type. I doubt that they would've put out the HSAs (with
apparent plans of doing more) if they weren't trying to expand the Hero
System as a whole (the books' stated purpose). Remember, these guys are
writers and gamers, not television network programming executives. They do
have souls. ;-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:06:54 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Extradimensional Bases
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At 09:01 PM 9/9/97 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>The esteemed Mr. Greenwade wrote:
>>At 03:28 PM 9/9/97 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>> I'd go along with that YMMV. OTOH, the XDM could be held by the base
>>itself, at least if it was a Gate (and possibly otherwise)
>>
>ooo... hmm... Um, but how would you use that Gate to get to the base?
>(Personally, I'm not familiar with the *exact* mechanics of the Gate, I
>don't own Mystic Masters.) I assume it would be very similar to the old JLA
>satelite, with the teleporters, right?
That's the idea, at least; and I do think that the published mechanics
are at least similar. (I do happen to have access to my copy of Mystic
Masters, but I'm too lazy to get up and go get it right at the moment.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (Here we go again, my 2 penneth)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 23:13:21 +0100
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OK, how about this.
?d6 Drain against Speed
Ranged (+1/2)
Area effect=1 hex (+1/2)
Only effects wlakers/runners etc (-1/2)
2 charges (-1 1/4)
This only costs 2.5 points per die of drain.
To justify this, think about oil slicks this way.
Vera the Villianous runs across Simon Slickboy's oil slick. She gets hit
with (lets say) 8 dice of Speed drain against her SPD of 4.
Lets say that Simon gets a median roll with these dice of 8*3=15. This
knocks her speed down to 1.6, which is played as 1. If this happens on
phase 3 (Veras first of the turn) she "looses" her next two phases as she
slips and slides around. Next turn she goes up to speed 2.1, so she gets an
extra action this turn (as speed 2) but is still not sure of her footing.
And so on and so forth.
This not only gives a decent simulation of what happens when you get hit
with an oilslick (happens down my street all the time...) but also defers
in favor of highspeed/ high dex characters who will regain their footing
faster. Also by using drain you get the common aftereffect that, even after
the villian has gotten out of the actual oil slick they still keep falling
over because they boots of evil are still coated with oil. It also
simulates what happens when fast moving vehicles hit oil slicks. The
vehicle keeps moving at it's current speed, but cannot manuveure (or only
handles very sluggishly) because it's speed has been drained (Lesson for
life, never move noncombat in combat!)
Comments awaited with a due fear of dread and trepidation.
TTFN from Chris!
http://www.lynch1.demon.co.uk
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
Subject: HeroMaker
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 23:15:59 +0100
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Anyone know how I can get hold of a copy of HeroMaker in the UK?
TTFN from Chris!
http://www.lynch1.demon.co.uk
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:22:50 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Vehicles and bases
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At 07:59 PM 9/10/97 +0100, Chris Lynch wrote:
>Maybe I have a mental block, maybe I just can't find this in the rule book
>or perhaps (Gasp...) it has never been written down.
>
>Will someone please remind me what happens (or at least what they do) when
>a base or vehicle gets destroyed? It is a case of independance and the
>points are just lost... or will the base/vehicle "rise again" for the next
>adventure?
Treat it like a Follower. The vehicle/base is gone, but can be replaced
with a new one in a reasonable period of time using the same points.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:34:56 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: You know your a HERO player when
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At 03:08 AM 9/12/97 -0700, Captain Spith wrote:
> ...Instead of covering a friends eyes and saying "Guess Who?" you say
>"Make a perception roll"
>
> ...During a snowball fight, you start cataloging who has a high DEX
>and who has skill levels.
>
> ...You refer to your friends' and family's idiosyncracies as Psych
>Lims
...what's going through your mind during a movie is what each
character's Characteristics, Skills, and Disadvantages would be.
...you count off segments when watching an action sequence.
...you tune in a martial arts tournament just to see what hwarang-do
actually looks like.
...you're being hurried by someone and you ask for one extra level on
the Time Chart.
...you express your computer's speed as a one-digit number that is not
in Megahertz.
...someone in an AOL chat room offers you a a celebrity nude pic and you
ask for Quantum.
...your computer's hard disk has more space devoted to CHA files than
EXE files.
...your line of thought when vacationing is what would be a cool place
to stage a superhero battle. (Side note: the tide pools at Yaquina Head
just north of Newport, Oregon would be an *excellent* locale!)
...someone mentions four armed guards, and you wonder how many there are
and whether they have weapons. (You may have to read that one multiple
times to understand it.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 09:01:00 +1000
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: You know your a HERO player when
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At 03:34 PM 9/12/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
> ...you tune in a martial arts tournament just to see what hwarang-do
>actually looks like.
>
hey!! i DO hwa rang do! and it happens to look really cool- of course it's completely differnt from hawrang do, which is different again from hwarangdo, which is different again from whorangbob *l*
. . . .where'd you get hwa rang do, from UMA? or ninja's and super spies?
>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 19:22:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Slick, Champs comics
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From: willggeiger@juno.com (William G Geiger)
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About 12 years ago, there was a Champions comic book series pubished by
Eclipse, starring Giant, Marksman, Rose, etc. It included character
write-ups and Danger Rooms, and I liked it.
Come to think of it, this costs 3 1/3 points per die of Suppress <ahem>
Aloha, WillGGeiger@juno.com
?d6 Suppress against DEX
>
> Area effect=1 hex (+1/2)
> 0 END (+1/2)
> Only effects walkers/runners etc (-1/2)
> Not vs. successful DEX roll, targets w/Acrobatics @ +5 (-1 1/2)
>
> This costs less than 7 points per die of drain, and can be used
>infinite times.
> I don't think it is too expensive.
X-Sender: piapps@cyberspace.org (Unverified)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:36:04 -0700
From: Nic Neidenbach <naneiden@iswest.com>
Subject: Re: Slick, Champs comics
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I found one issue of this comic recently. It featured Flare, Icicle and
Foxbat.
-Nic
At 07:22 PM 9/12/97 -0400, you wrote:
>About 12 years ago, there was a Champions comic book series pubished by
>Eclipse, starring Giant, Marksman, Rose, etc. It included character
>write-ups and Danger Rooms, and I liked it.
>
>Come to think of it, this costs 3 1/3 points per die of Suppress <ahem>
> Aloha, WillGGeiger@juno.com
>
> ?d6 Suppress against DEX
>>
>> Area effect=1 hex (+1/2)
>> 0 END (+1/2)
>> Only effects walkers/runners etc (-1/2)
>> Not vs. successful DEX roll, targets w/Acrobatics @ +5 (-1 1/2)
>>
>> This costs less than 7 points per die of drain, and can be used
>>infinite times.
>> I don't think it is too expensive.
>
>
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford)
Subject: Re: NND & Variable special effect
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 01:23:09 GMT
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Fri, 12 Sep 1997 06:47:19 -0600, you wrote:
>In agreement here. However the sticky problem of NNDs and Pools comes
>up, and you get most of the same problems. The solution we have found is
>to allow multiple NNDs, with different Ds in general, but all of them
>must share at least _one_ Defence. The indidual NNDs have varient Ds
>dependent of the special effect of the attack, and the 'over Defence' is
>dependant of the Special Effect of the structure (Pool, Variable Effect
>ect) that allow the 'more than one NND'.
>
>Someone with a magic pool could have a number of special spells (ie a
>Vacuum spell (ie D= LS Breathe, a Heat Spell D= LS Heat ect) but all the
>NNDs have Any power D (which works well for a magic type). Thus a
>character could have one defence and stop all the NNDs the character
>has...
I allow characters to have multiple NND attacks without a uniform
defense. They have to fit the character concept very closely, though
or I won't allow them in the first place.
Villains, however, depending on their concept, often can have such
attacks. Once the heroes know what to expect, though, this information
can be used to their advantage. I've had villains that had NND attacks
with a defense of "not having a forcefield" be totally outfoxed when
force-field using heroes turn them OFF.
Yeah I know, it's dangerous if there's someone else around shooting at
them. It's a tough life but with great power comes great
responsibility...
John Lansford
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 01:28:29 GMT
X-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero)
Subject: Re: You know your a HERO player when
X-Listname: Hero
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On 11 Sep 97 20:22:52 GMT, you wrote:
>
>
>Someone says SPD, and you know it is Speed, and you know it is not a drug.
You calculate your own statistics and wish your personal STR were just
a point or two higher
You write vacation spots for brochures to use in your campaign, not to
plan a vacation with (I did this for New Orleans)
You judge building materials on how much knockback they subtract off
before getting knocked through them
John Lansford
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford)
Subject: Re: Slick, Champs comics
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 01:32:32 GMT
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On Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:36:04 -0700, you wrote:
>I found one issue of this comic recently. It featured Flare, Icicle and
>Foxbat.
>
The comic was drawn in black and white and had some of the younger
heroes related to the original Heroes. Icicle's younger sister was in
it, as was Flare's sister. It was fairly well done although the sexual
aspects between some of the women was gone into more than needed IMO.
John Lansford
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 22:48:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Champs comics
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From: willggeiger@juno.com (William G Geiger)
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There were several Champions comics series. The first was a four issue
miniseries. This and the following regular series were in color, as were
some subsequent issues. These first two series were the Eclipse
publications, and had no sexual content. Those were introduced in the
Flare title, which lacked Champion stats.
Aloha, WillGGeiger@juno.com
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 22:33:30 -0500 (CDT)
From: Devan <rlewis@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: You know your a HERO player when
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On Sat, 13 Sep 1997, John Lansford wrote:
> You calculate your own statistics and wish your personal STR were just
> a point or two higher
Or possibly...
You keep thinking, "Damn, I've got all these disadvantages.. Where the hell
did I spend my points?"
-- D
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From: Devan <rlewis@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 22:33:30 -0500 (CDT)
X-To: Multiple recipients of Hero <hero-l@october.com>
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Subject: Re: You know your a HERO player when
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On Sat, 13 Sep 1997, John Lansford wrote:
> You calculate your own statistics and wish your personal STR were just
> a point or two higher
Or possibly...
You keep thinking, "Damn, I've got all these disadvantages.. Where the hell
did I spend my points?"
-- D
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 23:41:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: You know your a HERO player when
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On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Devan wrote:
>
> On Sat, 13 Sep 1997, John Lansford wrote:
>
> > You calculate your own statistics and wish your personal STR were just
> > a point or two higher
>
> Or possibly...
>
> You keep thinking, "Damn, I've got all these disadvantages.. Where the hell
> did I spend my points?"
Or that all you *really* had to do in order to learn a new language (like
Japanese) is spend a coupla points somewhere...
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
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Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 22:12:20 -0700
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Reply-To: rook@infinex.com
Subject: (Genre Question) Teen Aged Heroes. Is it a viable construct
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There are several examples of this in the genre.
New Mutants, Teen Titans, DNAgents, Gen 13,
Generation X, X Force.
Gaming gives us Arcadian Academy, Scions of Cain,
and I know of two PBeM's devoted to the subject. For
those who don't know, the first two are from Fuzion,
the second two are Champions PBeM's.
The question here remains however, is this a viable
concept. The idea of a group of teenage Super-Heroes.
What ought to happen to people of such an age in a
Super-Universe.
Obviously, they shouldn't be out in the open battling
Galactus, that seems the role of the adults...
So is the idea of such a Super Team viable. What would
they do? What should they not do? How would adult
society deal with them? Why would they exist as a super
hero team? What would hold them together? How would
they pull it off?
What kind of adventures would make sense for them?
--
Rook
Also known as Arcady on #herochat and #Fuzionchat in DALnet IRC
herochat is a channel for discusion of the Hero system
Fuzionchat is for dicussion of Fuzion (C:NM, BGC, et all)
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Also, check out the new version of Villians & Vigilantes at
http://illusionmachines.com/personal/jeff/vandv.html
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 16:15:31 +1000
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: (Genre Question) Teen Aged Heroes. Is it a viable construct
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
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At 10:12 PM 9/12/97 -0700, you wrote:
> There are several examples of this in the genre.
>
> New Mutants, Teen Titans, DNAgents, Gen 13,
>Generation X, X Force.
>
> Gaming gives us Arcadian Academy, Scions of Cain,
>and I know of two PBeM's devoted to the subject. For
>those who don't know, the first two are from Fuzion,
>the second two are Champions PBeM's.
>
> The question here remains however, is this a viable
>concept. The idea of a group of teenage Super-Heroes.
>What ought to happen to people of such an age in a
>Super-Universe.
>
i have an npc villan 'teen team' which centers around the idea that the 'kids'
useing media savvy and a fair amount of mind cotrol, get off scott free from all their crimes. They're basically immature spoilt brats who don't want to grow up, apart from their psycic leader.
I also had a teenager 'subteam' within a goverment superteam i built- the teens were ther pc's - basically it was the 'southern cross', meant to be australias super team, but they couldn't get hold of many adult powerful supers. So they ended having these three teenagers, pretty powerful teamed with a trio of slightly sinister old-timers, but operating as their own team.
> Obviously, they shouldn't be out in the open battling
>Galactus, that seems the role of the adults...
>
> So is the idea of such a Super Team viable. What would
>they do? What should they not do? How would adult
>society deal with them? Why would they exist as a super
>hero team? What would hold them together? How would
>they pull it off?
>
well i can see a few possiblilities- uall should be able to recognise them...
Guardian: The group has some sort of clear adult guardian, like banshee of magnus. The idea is that they are students, although the guardian could be an AI computer, a familiiar, or even a wierd mystical visitation. . . .
Renegades: The group could be 'on the run' from some authority group- hence they are outlaws to some degree, so any contradictions can be used as plot devices- how do they survive? aer they actually physically 'on the run'?, or just an underground goup in some way?
Subgroup: The group is under the semi-supervision of a group of adult supers. This leads to interesting friction, as well as quite a lot of potential plots- but it's important to balance the pc's with the elders against the pc's on their own,.
Institution: this is a setting concept- imagine a world where all younge mutants (psi, whatever) had to attend an accadamy, with different classes being different 'teams'.
Hence there can be everything from road-trips to actual fights, but it does require a different setting. . .
> What kind of adventures would make sense for them?
>
well,
>--
>Rook
>Also known as Arcady on #herochat and #Fuzionchat in DALnet IRC
>herochat is a channel for discusion of the Hero system
>Fuzionchat is for dicussion of Fuzion (C:NM, BGC, et all)
>
>Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
>http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
>
>Also, check out the new version of Villians & Vigilantes at
>http://illusionmachines.com/personal/jeff/vandv.html
>
>
>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 23:17:40 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Karma & XP Awards
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Chris Lynch wrote:
> I keeping with the use of "Karma" XP I too give out XP on the fly
> throughout the game. I also have a little set of house rules (nothing
> formal, but all the players know how it works!). As you are earning XP on
> the fly you can not only spend them on the fly (so long as they don't spend
> half an hour with a calculator trying to buy a 2d6HKA sword from Yan's
> Martial Arts-O-Rama with 2 XP.)
>
> They can also play them to one of the three following things:
> 1: Get an instant "6" result as if they had luck dice (even if they did not
> have luck).
> 2: Buy a 6 result on a die roll (only their own!)
> 3: Buy a 1 result on a die roll (yes, still only thier own!)
>
> This system may seems stretching the mechanics of the game a bit, but I was
> inspired by the Karma system in Marvel SuperHeroes. This way, you risk your
> life to rescue ol' Granny Mac from the speeding Mac Truck (putting yourself
> in a severe disadvatage as you are currently fighting 10 of Dr.Manic's
> eveil henchmonkeys). You get an XP. This XP later helps you out when you
> REALLY need to catch hold of that bush as you fall head long off a cliff
> (from which you were pushed by ol' Granny Mac who turns out to be an
> extradimensional kinetic impact absorbing being who needed to absorb the
> impact from the truck to open a portal back to her own dimension which can
> only be attempted once every 1000 years...).
>
> To make this system more fun however, I am deliberatly erratic with when I
> give out these points (some Grannys need to get hit by the odd truck now
> and then).
My old gaming group from college used to have the house rule that
whenever a natural "3" was rolled (during a legitimate combat or skill
roll), the player received a 'Hero Point' which (s)he would save and
hoard until such time as they needed a l'il help.
The Hero Point would allow the adjustment of any skill roll by 1 to
turn a miss (or fail) into a hit (or success). If a player had saved up
3 Hero Points, all three *could* be used at once to adjust a roll by 3,
but natural 3's just don't come by that often.
Though it doesn't seem like a very big bonus, there are definitely
times when a particularly important roll could use a tiny adjustment for
big results. Besides, it was a completely free bonus, and its limited
use kept people from constantly trying to overuse or take advantage of
the mechanic.
I think there was actually once when the GM decided that a certain
task was ruled impossible (no automatic success on '3'), and told the
player that he needed a '1' to succeed. Well, the player tried anyway
and rolled a natural 3, so he used a saved Hero Point, plus the one
received just then by the 3 and lowered the result to 1. The GM had to
concede, since he had claimed that a 1 would succeed....
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 15:37:16 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: XP Awards (was Re: NND & Variable special effect)
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>SurturZ wrote:
>>This is my replacement character in a campaign I've been playing in
>>for about 3 years now. We're up to around 300pt characters (although
>>"Artifice" is built on 275). A testimony to the slow growth of
>>characters in Champions (25 XP in three years? Sheesh! I guess we
>>only play around four sessions a year).
>>
>>How many XP does everyone hand out? I usually award about 1XP/hr real
>>time, with bonuses/penalties for roleplaying & ingenious play.
>>
>>(I think I'm rather generous with XP).
>>
>I think most on the list would agree (about the generous bit). I asked
relatively the same >question when I got on the list last semester, and I
got some pretty good guidelines. Give >me some time, and I'll sort through
the responses and post the highlights.
> I really only GM, the one character that a player has is up to 324
(+3 unspent). And >he's been playing him under me for 4-5 years (he started
at 250). This is the player who Solo >adventures *all* the time. Then
again, it's only been 4-5 game *months*... <sigh>
> The last games I ran at home (before I came back to ol' vt.edu) I
gave out 1 XP/session, >to standardize the characters a bit. No one (but
the guy I mentioned above : ) seemed to >mind.
>
>- Jerry
Okay, here's some collation from last semester:
Eric F. <ericf@navicom.com> said:
> I played in a face-to-face Champions campaign, where we usually got 3 xp
per session (i.e., >every time we played), & we played every other Saturday...
Mark <icepirat@ix.netcom.com> said:
> It depends on how fast you want the character's to grow... think about
awarding one or two >eeps that are for whatever and then assign some eeps to
areas where you feel the PC's will >learn. (They spend on month in France.
They might pick up a point of French.)
> The other consideration is how many times you play, etc... If you missed
a bunch of >games, your character would fall behind in power level.
Vance Scott (Vanquisher of all foes.) <vances@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> One point per session for me, plus bonus points per scenario.
Opal <Opal@october.com> told me:
> Two experience is good for a short game like that [referring to my 3-4
hour sessions!]. I >generally assume that and adventure that goes more than
a session or two is 'long' so I >almost always give out eeps every session
and give out more when major objective are >accomplished (up to 5).
Chuff78002 <Chuff78002@aol.com> wrote:
> 3 to 4 for a four hour session.....most dm's I know actually award just 1
xp point per session >as standard, with extra points awarded for tactics,
role-play etc.
> These points are usually stored until the dm actually says WHEN we can
spend 'em...
> I usually use the above system myself. Some people may think it's a tad
hard to advance >but it means that nobody gets TOO powerful too soon. ...I
personally have no complaints at >all. It means you have extra time to
develop the character skill wise etc.
Chan <ChanFaunce@aol.com> informed me:
> I genergally give out 1 cp per session (aprox. 5 hours) +1 cp for
completion of major >objective. I also reward 1 cp for major Tick Moments.
The esteemed Mr. Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> sez:
> About two to three per session is probably about right, especially if you
play once a week, >as most groups do; it could even be considered high.
However, you [me!] mentioned in >another post that you play every two to
three weeks, so you might even be able to get away >with going up to
averaging 4 per session.
This being said, I have used really three different (but similar) systems,
which overlapped...
1) Started as 1 xp/session, +1 if it was especially long or the players
were being really cool (kind of how I interpret playing well; if I had a
good time...).
This kind of morphed into...
2) 2 xp/session, +1 if we played all night, +1 if the individual players
were cool and/or funny, +1 for giving me cool drawings/backgrounds of the
characters/events (one of the guys does *lovely* Anime-esque art, and I've
had to cut that bonus back slightly).
3) Flat, 1 xp/session (my most recent game, with the most players.
With 1, I was just starting out, and simply used the table in the back of
the book. At 2, some of the players complained that they weren't advancing
fast enough, and I didn't want unhappy players. Also, S. John Ross told me
of his "Bonus Starting Character Points" system (I don't think that's what
he calls it) that he uses in GURPS. He awards extra points *at character
creation* for things like: character sketch/full description (at least a
page, I believe); promise to do a character diary/log/chronicle, in
character; and some other things, I forgot, I'll ask John. 3 was my most
recent game, with the most players, and I didn't want to "play favorites" or
upset anyone. Plus, most of them were still exploring the system and the
novelty of just playing their characters in this "new" (to them) system was
enough.
- Jerry
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
MMDF-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at punt-1.mail.demon.net
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (Here we go again, my 2 penneth)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 13:28:46 +0100
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>On 12 Sep 97 at 23:13, Chris Lynch wrote:
>
>> OK, how about this.
>>
>> ?d6 Drain against Speed
>> Ranged (+1/2)
>> Area effect=1 hex (+1/2)
>> Only effects wlakers/runners etc (-1/2)
>> 2 charges (-1 1/4)
>>
>
>That's a pretty good one. However, its effect is to cancel phases
>only, and doesn't have effects such as falling down, or actions that
>are performed with difficulty. It also doesn't cover reduced
>abilities that _could_ still succeed, such as swinging a fist, which
>may be hampered but are not _necessarily_ disabling.
>
>Personally, I think that a new power would be a good idea. A DEX
>Suppress would work perfectly (using proper Advantages,
>Limitations, and the Hero System Almanac/ Champions III rules), but
>it is too expensive.
>
>Filksinger
OK, so if I drained your DEX way down, would this be allowed to affect your
SPD as well (as it's a figured characterstic from DEX) I certainly wouldn't
allow it, but would any of you??
The same basic framework would work if you drained DEX instead of SPD
though, with roughly similar effects. However, instead of loosing the
ability to perform actions, the victim just finds it very difficult to
perform those same actions.
TTFN from Chris!
http://www.lynch1.demon.co.uk
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
MMDF-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at punt-1.mail.demon.net
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (Here we go again, my 2 penneth)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 13:44:24 +0100
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>>OK, how about this.
>>
>>?d6 Drain against Speed
>>Ranged (+1/2)
>>Area effect=1 hex (+1/2)
>>Only effects wlakers/runners etc (-1/2)
>>2 charges (-1 1/4)
>>
>>This only costs 2.5 points per die of drain.
>
>Horrors! HORRORS! Man, if you value your sanity, DON'T go using
adjustment
>powers on SPD!
My sanity is my business thanks. I would prefer to spend a little extra
time with my calculator for the sake of a working framework for this kind
of game.
>>To justify this, think about oil slicks this way.
>>Vera the Villianous runs across Simon Slickboy's oil slick. She gets hit
>>with (lets say) 8 dice of Speed drain against her SPD of 4.
>> Lets say that Simon gets a median roll with these dice of 8*3=15. This
>>knocks her speed down to 1.6, which is played as 1. If this happens on
>>phase 3 (Veras first of the turn) she "looses" her next two phases as
she
>>slips and slides around.
>
>Which sucks beyond all reason for gameplay purposes. You gotta sit down
and
>recalculate when the player can act again. Plus, what's good for the
goose
>is good for the gander - imagine villians with 10D6 SPD Aid. So
GoonMaster
>(SPD 4) spends his first two phases Aiding himself to 10 SPD, then spends
>his last 4 phases Aiding 4 goons to an average of +3 SPD. Yikes.
Your point being? Personally I would see this as an ideal opportunity for
my PC's to have to come up with an inovative strategy to beat this
superfast villian and his speedy minions. I am assuming that Goonmaster has
spend the necessary points on increasing the maximum amount that he can aid
to achieve all this right???!
>Or Dispel vs. SPD. Most people won't have more than 50-60 points in SPD
(all
>told, figured and bought up). So I buy a 20D6 SPD Dispel (60 points) and
>whammo, I've just removed _all_ of my opponant's chances to act (their
SPD
>won't come back until their next phase, but they don't have a next
>phase...and Dispel doesn't recover in post-phase 12 like drain
does...isn't
>that nice :->).
>
I know full well thankyou that the lowest speed you are allowed is 1 no
matter what. I had considered this. No matter how slippy the oil slick even
AbbotandCostelloMan will get out of it eventually.
>Anyway, the implications of SPD Aid/Drain/Transfer/Suppress are just so
>nasty I don't let anyone near them. It's better for the game, as well.
>People can take being knocked out. But getting Drained to 0 SPD, fully
>concious, twiddling their thumbs is just too much.
You pays your points and you takes your chances.
>And note that your SPD Drain wouldn't effect DEX - so the character can't
>act at 0 SPD, but still has full DCV??? <scratch head>
Oh but she DOES act. She trys to regain her footing (an instinctive
reaction when your footing is suddenly undermined). As much as she wanted
to fire her photonic NRG blaster (TM patentpending) she was too busy going
"Whoops!"
>>Next turn she goes up to speed 2.1, so she gets an
>>extra action this turn (as speed 2) but is still not sure of her
footing.
>>And so on and so forth.
>>
>>This not only gives a decent simulation of what happens when you get hit
>>with an oilslick (happens down my street all the time...) but also
defers
>>in favor of highspeed/ high dex characters who will regain their footing
>>faster.
>
>But it doesn't allow a high DEX character to avoid/ignore it completely -
>something that is common with the high-agility characters.
High DEX's usually equate to high speeds, so these characters are effected
less. Of course they are still effected. Even the Flash falls over. Quite a
bit actually....
> Also by using drain you get the common aftereffect that, even after
>>the villian has gotten out of the actual oil slick they still keep
falling
>>over because they boots of evil are still coated with oil. It also
>>simulates what happens when fast moving vehicles hit oil slicks.
>
>No it doesn't. A running drain might - and even that doesn't simulate the
>loss of control.
>
Of course it does! But my mechanism is looking at the effects after you
step OUT of the slick. Mud sticks as they say....
>Throw is a mechanism that allows both:
>
>A.) bearing the person to the ground, and
>B.) tossing them a ways
>
>which is generally what the 'oil slick' does. So a throw-only TK is best
in
>my books - if the person was moving at a good clip, it's a running throw,
>otherwise, a standing throw. The real problem here is cost (continious,
AE
>telekinesis isn't cheap), but such is life.
>
Much better off buying a martial throw with lasting charges, area effect
and range. (But there are problems with this too. It's redeeming feature?
It's cheap!)
TTFN from Chris!
http://www.lynch1.demon.co.uk
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
MMDF-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at punt-1.mail.demon.net
Subject: Re: XP Awards (was Re: NND & Variable special effect)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 13:59:39 +0100
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----
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
To: champ-l@omg.org
Date: 12 September 1997 12:32
Subject: Re: XP Awards (was Re: NND & Variable special effect)
> On occasion, when a player makes a particularly astute observation
>(or a seemingly obvious one that EVERYONE else is missing with a
>vengeance), I will throw out an 'instant karma' XP on the spot, as I
>will if a player does or says something particularly unexpected or
>uniquely '4-coloured' which brings renewed energy to the game and/or
>group. I've had one session where a player earned 6 or 7 points as
>compared to the others' 3 or 4. The results of the overall enjoyment of
>the game to everyone was worth it.
>
>--
> -Capt. Spith
> Savior of Humanity
> Secular Messiah
>
I keeping with the use of "Karma" XP I too give out XP on the fly
throughout the game. I also have a little set of house rules (nothing
formal, but all the players know how it works!). As you are earning XP on
the fly you can not only spend them on the fly (so long as they don't spend
half an hour with a calculator trying to buy a 2d6HKA sword from Yan's
Martial Arts-O-Rama with 2 XP.)
They can also play them to one of the three following things:
1: Get an instant "6" result as if they had luck dice (even if they did not
have luck).
2: Buy a 6 result on a die roll (only their own!)
3: Buy a 1 result on a die roll (yes, still only thier own!)
This system may seems stretching the mechanics of the game a bit, but I was
inspired by the Karma system in Marvel SuperHeroes. This way, you risk your
life to rescue ol' Granny Mac from the speeding Mac Truck (putting yourself
in a severe disadvatage as you are currently fighting 10 of Dr.Manic's
eveil henchmonkeys). You get an XP. This XP later helps you out when you
REALLY need to catch hold of that bush as you fall head long off a cliff
(from which you were pushed by ol' Granny Mac who turns out to be an
extradimensional kinetic impact absorbing being who needed to absorb the
impact from the truck to open a portal back to her own dimension which can
only be attempted once every 1000 years...).
To make this system more fun however, I am deliberatly erratic with when I
give out these points (some Grannys need to get hit by the odd truck now
and then).
What do you think???
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:02:00 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: You know your a HERO player when
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At 09:01 AM 9/13/97 +1000, happyelf! wrote:
>At 03:34 PM 9/12/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>
>> ...you tune in a martial arts tournament just to see what hwarang-do
>>actually looks like.
>>
>
>hey!! i DO hwa rang do! and it happens to look really cool- of course it's
completely differnt from hawrang do, which is different again from
hwarangdo, which is different again from whorangbob *l*
>. . . .where'd you get hwa rang do, from UMA? or ninja's and super spies?
UMA. I'm still waiting for the $$$ to afford NSS (and other Palladium
modern-day materials, HU/VU/AU; I want to use it as a parallel universe).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:10:04 -0500
From: Tim Palmore <valiant@destin.gulfnet.com>
Subject: Re: (Genre Question) Teen Aged Heroes. Is it a viable construct
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Rook wrote:
> There are several examples of this in the genre.
>
> New Mutants, Teen Titans, DNAgents, Gen 13,
> Generation X, X Force.
>
> Gaming gives us Arcadian Academy, Scions of Cain,
> and I know of two PBeM's devoted to the subject. For
> those who don't know, the first two are from Fuzion,
> the second two are Champions PBeM's.
>
> The question here remains however, is this a viable
> concept. The idea of a group of teenage Super-Heroes.
> What ought to happen to people of such an age in a
> Super-Universe.
>
> Obviously, they shouldn't be out in the open battling
> Galactus, that seems the role of the adults...
>
> So is the idea of such a Super Team viable. What would
> they do? What should they not do? How would adult
> society deal with them? Why would they exist as a super
> hero team? What would hold them together? How would
> they pull it off?
All this would depend on the attitude of the 'dults, and other people
in charge of the world. Obviously if the attitudes were similar to what
we see in real life it would be difficult to pull it off. Perhaps as an
underground organization or a group of gang members tired of the way
life is on the street.
>
>
> What kind of adventures would make sense for them?
For adventures that would make sense, here is my chance to plug
one of my favorite comics on a similar genre. It's from Acclaim Comics,
Troublemakers.
>
>
> --
> Rook
> Also known as Arcady on #herochat and #Fuzionchat in DALnet IRC
> herochat is a channel for discusion of the Hero system
> Fuzionchat is for dicussion of Fuzion (C:NM, BGC, et all)
>
> Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
> http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
>
> Also, check out the new version of Villians & Vigilantes at
> http://illusionmachines.com/personal/jeff/vandv.html
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 11:24:50 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: NND & Variable special effect
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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David Streeter wrote:
>
> If I have an NND attack that also has variable special effects,
> should I be allowed to change the defense to the NND?
>
> My thinking is that I should, provided the VSFX is the +1/2 level
> (rather than the +1/4 ice spear/ice hammer/fire hammer/fire spear
> level)
>
> SurturZ
I would have to say that an NND with Variable SFX would need to be
limited to the +1/4 level of limited SFX, and have a set of defenses
which are - if not actually the same - very similar.
As for having multiple NND attacks, I would have to let a
gadgeteer-type have them if (s)he could rationalize them well, but a
'natural' powered character would have to have a *darn* good reason
(which would not - in my pervue - be easy).
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 15:09:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Wayne J Shaw <shaw@IDT.NET>
X-Sender: shaw@u2.farm.idt.net
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: NND & Variable special effect
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On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
> >
> > NO. Allowing a single character two different NND attacks is
> > normally forbidden in Champions, and you want an infinite number of
> > NND attacks?
>
> Of course, that said, I don't totally agree with that rule. It is
> really up to character conception and cohesion. However, for most
> practical purposes one is hard pressed to come up with more than one that
> fits a given SFX, except maybe for a gadgeteer-type.
Many wide-spectrum types can theoretically justify more than one. A broad
band environmental mage for example could theoretically smother you, hit
you with heat shock, cause little bugs to appear and sting you, and so on.
But the gas gun/trank gun combination of the gadgeteer is a particularly
obvious one.
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 21:46:27 +0000
Subject: Re: NND & Variable special effect
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net
Priority: normal
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On 12 Sep 97 at 15:10, David Streeter wrote:
> How many XP does everyone hand out? I usually award about 1XP/hr real
> time, with bonuses/penalties for roleplaying & ingenious play.
I generally hand out 2-3 per adventure, with a +1 for each additional
game session needed to complete it (assuming that we actually game,
talking for 6 hours and playing for 1 doesn't count).
I'll also hand out bonuses for roleplaying and, sometimes,
fun-boosting actions. Also, if a player is roleplaying using a skill
they only just learned (such as a game where the player spends hours
on horseback, but never rode before), then I will give them a point
in that, as well.
> (I think I'm rather generous with XP).
I think so, too.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 21:46:28 +0000
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net
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On 12 Sep 97 at 15:04, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg
Uh, your sig has 404ed.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 21:46:28 +0000
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (Here we go again, my 2 penneth)
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On 13 Sep 97 at 13:44, Chris Lynch wrote:
> >>OK, how about this.
> >>
> >>?d6 Drain against Speed
> >>Ranged (+1/2)
> >>Area effect=1 hex (+1/2)
> >>Only effects wlakers/runners etc (-1/2)
> >>2 charges (-1 1/4)
> >>
> >>This only costs 2.5 points per die of drain.
<snip>
> >Or Dispel vs. SPD. Most people won't have more than 50-60 points in SPD
> (all
> >told, figured and bought up). So I buy a 20D6 SPD Dispel (60 points) and
> >whammo, I've just removed _all_ of my opponant's chances to act (their
> SPD
> >won't come back until their next phase, but they don't have a next
> >phase...and Dispel doesn't recover in post-phase 12 like drain
> does...isn't
> >that nice :->).
> >
> I know full well thankyou that the lowest speed you are allowed is 1 no
> matter what. I had considered this. No matter how slippy the oil slick even
> AbbotandCostelloMan will get out of it eventually.
Actually, in the HSA you can have a SPD of 0, though negatives only
slow down recovery from Drains. With a SPD of 0, you cannot act.
According to Bruce Harlick, you can kill with Drain even without the
HSA, so I would assume that a paralyzing SPD Drain is legal, though I
might forbid it as too cheap.
However, I would allow recovery at the normal SPD rate.
<snip>
> >And note that your SPD Drain wouldn't effect DEX - so the character can't
> >act at 0 SPD, but still has full DCV??? <scratch head>
>
> Oh but she DOES act. She trys to regain her footing (an instinctive
> reaction when your footing is suddenly undermined). As much as she wanted
> to fire her photonic NRG blaster (TM patentpending) she was too busy going
> "Whoops!"
And she avoids incoming attacks while lying on her butt, unable to
even roll around or crawl?
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 21:46:28 +0000
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (Here we go again, my 2 penneth)
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net
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On 13 Sep 97 at 13:28, Chris Lynch wrote:
>
> >On 12 Sep 97 at 23:13, Chris Lynch wrote:
> >
> >> OK, how about this.
> >>
> >> ?d6 Drain against Speed
> >> Ranged (+1/2)
> >> Area effect=1 hex (+1/2)
> >> Only effects wlakers/runners etc (-1/2)
> >> 2 charges (-1 1/4)
> >>
> >
> >That's a pretty good one. However, its effect is to cancel phases
> >only, and doesn't have effects such as falling down, or actions that
> >are performed with difficulty. It also doesn't cover reduced
> >abilities that _could_ still succeed, such as swinging a fist, which
> >may be hampered but are not _necessarily_ disabling.
> >
> >Personally, I think that a new power would be a good idea. A DEX
> >Suppress would work perfectly (using proper Advantages,
> >Limitations, and the Hero System Almanac/ Champions III rules), but
> >it is too expensive.
>
> >
> >Filksinger
>
> OK, so if I drained your DEX way down, would this be allowed to affect your
> SPD as well (as it's a figured characterstic from DEX) I certainly wouldn't
> allow it, but would any of you??
No. Drains on primary characteristics do not affect the secondary
characteristics upon which they are based. You want to Drain DEX
_and_ SPD, pay the points for both.
> The same basic framework would work if you drained DEX instead of SPD
> though, with roughly similar effects. However, instead of loosing the
> ability to perform actions, the victim just finds it very difficult to
> perform those same actions.
That's why I said that you needed the Hero System Almanac/ Champions
III rules. Once you reach 0 DEX, you need a DEX roll every phase,
using your present DEX, every phase, or you can't act. This would
allow characters with a high DEX to continue acting, but not up to
par, while characters with lower DEXes would slip so badly as to be
disabled part of the time.
Add a few Advantages and Limitations, and that about covers it,
doesn't it?
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 21:46:28 +0000
Subject: Re: You know your a HERO player when
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net
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On 12 Sep 97 at 23:41, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Devan wrote:
>
> >
> > On Sat, 13 Sep 1997, John Lansford wrote:
> >
> > > You calculate your own statistics and wish your personal STR were just
> > > a point or two higher
> >
> > Or possibly...
> >
> > You keep thinking, "Damn, I've got all these disadvantages.. Where the hell
> > did I spend my points?"
>
> Or that all you *really* had to do in order to learn a new language (like
> Japanese) is spend a coupla points somewhere...
>
Has anyone here ever designed themselves as they wish they were,
based upon 250 points, just for fun?
(If not, I'm going to feel really stupid.)
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 21:46:28 +0000
Subject: Re: You know your a HERO player when
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net
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On 12 Sep 97 at 15:34, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> ...you tune in a martial arts tournament just to see what hwarang-do
> actually looks like.
Been there, done that. Besides, I would like to learn Gracie
jiu-jitsu.
How about
... you collect books on sabotage, bodyguarding, bounty hunters,
detectives, explosives, alarm systems, dirty tricks, black bag
operations, etc.. When asked why, you say, "It might come in useful,"
and find yourself horrified to discover that they think you would
actually _use_ this stuff.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 21:46:28 +0000
Subject: Re: You know your a HERO player when...
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On 12 Sep 97 at 10:10, David Fair wrote:
> David Fair Adds His 2 cents:
>
> ... you look for places to attach a swingline as you walk from your
> office to the Metro (or your car).
> ... you compile lists of people you meet whose names would sound good
> on your PC's & NPC's (maybe that one's just me?)
Not just you.:)
> ... you trip on a crack in the sidewalk you say "I'm OK, just failed
> my DEX roll"
> ... you know what a photographic memory is _really_ called. (Eidetic
> Memory, in case you don't have one)
But I learned that about 2 years before I began playing, when I was
about twelve.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
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Date: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 11:13 AM