Week Ending October 4, 1997
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Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 13:10:46 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
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John Prins wrote:
>>That is exactly what I am saying (spelling aside :). In Champions, if you
>>did not pay for the ability, be it power, skill, or talent, you do not have
>>it. If Life Support is required to survive in a hostile environment and
>>you do not have it, YOU WILL DIE. No ammount of Desolidification or any
>>other power will prevent that from happening.
>
>This is a little too broad a ruling, Rat. Breathing is an environmental
>_requirement_ for most people (like eating, drinking, and sleeping), while
>other Life Support powers are environmental 'protection'. I could argue,
>using the same logic, that someone who bought 5" Flight, X20000 NCV couldn't
>actually use their full speed unless they had the PD to resist the friction
>of the air on their hypersonic body.
Yes, it's a broad ruling, but all rulings *are*. And I think your argument
isn't sound (completely). The character with Flight is normally not damaged
because flying that fast is what the Power lets him do. You are arguing (by
Rat's logic, you say) that he would be crisped by friction. This isn't
Rat's logic. In Rat's ruling, Desolid simply doesn't protect you from
outside, environmental damage. If I extend the logic you are using, a
Desolid character would (for example) fall through the earth, or have
problems breathing, just by turning on the Power.
This isn't what Rat was saying.
>Most environmental effects can be modelled as 'attack powers' that do have
>appropriate defenses - for example, if somebody had 30rED, I think they'd be
>a lot less susceptible to extreme heat, even without the LS: Extreme Heat.
>Life Support is really a _CHEAP SHORTCUT_ to avoid having to buy excessively
>high PD and/or ED, Power Defense vs Diseases/Toxins, etc.
"*Most*... *can* be modeled..." not necessarily all are, or should be.
>Now, Desolid isn't a cheap power - 40 Active at the rock bottom. That's
>easily worth the ability to ignore minor environmental effects without
>resorting to Life Support.
<sunburn example snipped>
But molten lava/core of the earth and arctic conditions/surface of an
atmosphereless planet *aren't* "minor" environmental effects. I could (if I
bothered) come up with SFX of Desolid to allow me to survive in these
environments. I just beleive that characters shouldn't get that for free.
Pay for the Life Support (even if it *is* Linked to the Desolid).
- Jerry
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com (Unverified)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 06:14:05 -0500
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
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At 10:24 PM 9/27/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>That is exactly what I am saying (spelling aside :). In Champions, if you
>did not pay for the ability, be it power, skill, or talent, you do not have
>it. If Life Support is required to survive in a hostile environment and
>you do not have it, YOU WILL DIE. No ammount of Desolidification or any
>other power will prevent that from happening.
I'm looking in my BBB and I see on p. 272 that Lava can be defined as a 4d6K
vs. energy defense (non-moving -- this is just the "heat" element). So, if
I had a 24 rED, THAT power WOULD seem to "prevent that from happening", at
least in that particular hostile environment.
The protection provided by Life Support is not necessarily the only solution
to the problems it solves, especially when the environmental effects in
question exactly match an existing attack form -- the conventional defenses
against that attack form STILL WORK. This is why LS is most valuable for
those threats that are NOT conventional attacks, like drowning/suffocation
or diseases (even if one tries to "brute force" these into being
conventional attacks, they end up as NNDs vs. LS -- the only case when LS
/literally/ is the only defense).
--
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Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 06:14:07 -0500
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: "Night Vision"
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At 10:52 PM 9/27/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>You should not be putting limitations on skill levels that cost less than 5
>points each.
I've pointed this out before, but it bears repeating: this is a hokey,
thoughtless restriction -- just look at the example in the book under Combat
Levels, where poor Marksman pays 2 /extra/ points for the "privilege" of
having a limited power. (+4 5-pt. levels, OAF, OCV-only automatically,
isn't much different from +4 2-pt. levels).
But in any case, it's apples and origins, since Perception levels aren't
skill levels -- they're technically an "enhanced sense", so limit away.
> Besides, if real UV is too much then this is the kind of thing that
> should properly be a 3-point talent, one that, say, halves penalties
> for darkness instead of (mostly) negating them as UV Vision does.
Except that the BBB instructs GMs looking for new talents to build them as
specially-limited Powers, just as our friend has done here. (p. 46, second
paragraph).
I agree that it probably shouldn't entirely negate all darkness penalties,
but that might be done better by reducing it to 1 or 2 PER levels (making
only "Dark Night" and pitch-black areas problems).
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 06:02:03 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: "Night Vision"
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At 10:26 PM 9/27/97 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
> In an attempt to translate some GURPS Supers characters
>(specifically _Mixed_Doubles_), I ran into a trifle.
> The Advantage "Night Vision" allows characters to see well in the
>dark. This bonus doesn't apply to total darkness (you'd need "Dark
>Vision"), and is a "realistic" Advantage, meaning mere mortals can have it.
> I modeled this as +4 Enhanced Perception (Sight), Only v. Night/Dark
>Penalties (-1/2). I didn't wish to give an otherwise Normal character UV
>Vision, as the special effects don't fit. Does anyone have any comments,
>differing opinions, disparaging remarks... : ) Also, are there any other
>"special" Sight enhancements running around out there because of a lack of
>SFX variance on IR and UV sight?
You modeled this just as I would have, except that I'd make the
Limitation -1, modeling that after similar variations on Combat Skill
Levels (Only For Decreasing Hit Location Penalties) in Dark Champions (IOW
only vs a certain type of penalty for any Skill Roll enhancer is -1).
---
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 06:12:36 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Test
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At 01:37 PM 9/27/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>I'm not seeing my own messages being posted to the List, so I'm sending a
>test to see if I'm actually getting out.
This is strange.... I sent this out yesterday afternoon (Saturday), and
then all of a sudden overnight everying I'd been sending since Thursday
comes through.
Mailing lists... go fig. ;-]
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Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 06:18:56 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Reduced END Question
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At 10:10 PM 9/27/97 -0400, you wrote:
>If Density Increase is bought with Reduced END, does the
>reduced END apply to the Strength DI provides or would it
>need to be bought seperately?
That Reduced END would have to be purchased separately. STR is a
separate Power (so to speak) from Density Increase.
>Also, does passive Strength cost END to use?
If you mean Casual STR, I believe it does, though someone may know of
something printed that says otherwise (and if so, go with that).
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Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 06:19:11 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Vehicles and bases
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At 10:55 PM 9/27/97 -0700, Robert A. West wrote:
>Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>
>
>> >
>> >Will someone please remind me what happens (or at least what they do) when
>> >a base or vehicle gets destroyed? It is a case of independance and the
>> >points are just lost... or will the base/vehicle "rise again" . . .?
>>
>> Treat it like a Follower. The vehicle/base is gone, but can be replaced
>> with a new one in a reasonable period of time using the same points.
>
>Well, I differ on the treatment of followers. Replacing a "generic"
>follower, such as a bodyguard, requires spending 5 pts under the
>"doubling" rule, unless the cost was less. So, after spending 5 pts
>to replace your 150-pt bodyguard, you now have two bodyguards, one of
>whom is dead.
>
>Replacing a unique follower can't be done this way, and the points won't
>come back, except possibly as the result of a long story arc, such as
>might be used to replace an Unbreakable Focus that had been destroyed or
>to track down and regain an Independent item.
Uh... this is a House Rule, right? I sure don't see this in the book.
Not that I find it altogether unreasonable, understand....
>For bases and vehicles, then I agree with the statement above, unless
>the origin of the base or vehicle prohibited its replacement. The
>difference for me is that heroes should not treat followers as
>expendible, while it is perfectly appropriate to so treat most equipment.
Any character who treats Followers this way *deserves* to lose the
points, except maybe in darkly comedic campaigns. ("Time to get a new
Jimmy....") The same goes for rotating DNPCs such as those of the
"Girlfriend of the Week" variety.
>In fact, If I chose to replace a follower via a quest, I think that I
>would make a special award of experience to be used to create a
>replacement follower, and leave the dead follower on the base character's
>sheet forever as a reminder.
This is not unreasonable.
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From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 97 16:15:05
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: CHAR: [New Gods] Darkseid
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On Sat, 27 Sep 1997 13:29:32 -0400 (EDT), PopTholian@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 9/21/97 12:13:36 AM, John.Desmarais@ibm.net wrote:
>> Next, the 10 levels with attack. Each phase, if the attack
>> misses the target, add one to the OCV and make a new attack
>> roll. Do this until the attack hits or you've made 10
>> attempts (if by the time the OCV reaches 28, it still
>> doesn't hit, the target deserves to escape).
>
>I giggled for 10 minutes on this 1, John.
>Imagine how pissed Darkseid would be if the Omega Effect _missed_ :()
>
It's very difficult to do absolutes in Champs. Trying to create an attack that ALWAYS
hits just wasn't worth the effort.
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 12:38:02 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Popeye.
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>>Bump up the Fade Rate to 5CP per 5 Min (+1/2), then throw in the
>>Limitation:
>>Fades Completely at First Fade Rate (-1/2)
>I wouldn't go as far as -1/2, perhaps -1/4
In general or for the 5 min fade rate?
This brings up a philosophy point. For example, is the Limitation: Fades
Completely at First Fade Rate worth LESS for longer Fade Rates? Conversely,
is it worth MORE for faster fades?
If so, I could argue that 'Increased END' is worth LESS of a limitation if I
have piles of other limits (especially, 'Extra Time'). Example:
10D6 Energy Blast, x5 END (-3)
or
10D6 Energy Blast, Extra Time: One Month (-4 1/2), x5 END (-3)
Now, if I can only fire once a month, and it takes a whole month to prepare,
a huge END cost isn't exactly prohibitive, is it? But I still get the same
-3 limit that Instant Energy Blastman gets.
Of course, it's valid to argue that I get less cost savings from the x5 END
if I have lots other limits (compare: first case, x5 END saves me 38 points,
while in the second it saves me a whopping 3 points, b/c the extra time
saved me 41 points). But if I have lots of other conditional limits
(gestures, incantation, charges, etc.) this doesn't reduce the -3 'nature'
of the x5 END Limitation.
Now, let's compare this fade rate thing:
12D6 Aid, Fades Completely at First Fade Rate (-1/2)
Active: 60, Real: 40, Savings: 20
8D6 Aid, Fade Rate: 5 min (+1/2), Fades Completely at First Fade Rate (-1/2)
Active: 60, Real: 48, Savings: 20
Here, the savings are the same - but I've traded Aid potential for long term
durability. If you argued that Fades Completely is -1/4 at the 5 min level
(and I believe that is WORTH -1/2 at the per Turn level, but it might be
worth less as you descend the time chart), you'd only save 12, even though
you paid for the higher fade rate fair'n'square.
Discuss. :-)
>>You ever see Popeye get nailed while he's eating
>>the
>>spinach or doing his powerup sequence? I didn't think so.
>
>Actually, several times Popeye, tired and battered, tried to eat spinach,
>only to have
>Bluto snatch it away.
Sounds like good'old Popeye was Stunned to me <nod, nod> and unable to
Activate his power. Besides, this fits in with the OAF (ready the focus, but
disarmed) and gestures (can't get it to his mouth) nature of the construct.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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-John comments on Feng Shui
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John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 12:38:06 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
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>F> Let me get this straight. A character who buys desolidification is immune
>F> to attacks that could vaporize rock, but will be hurt my molten rock?
>
>That is exactly what I am saying (spelling aside :). In Champions, if you
>did not pay for the ability, be it power, skill, or talent, you do not have
>it. If Life Support is required to survive in a hostile environment and
>you do not have it, YOU WILL DIE. No ammount of Desolidification or any
>other power will prevent that from happening.
This is a little too broad a ruling, Rat. Breathing is an environmental
_requirement_ for most people (like eating, drinking, and sleeping), while
other Life Support powers are environmental 'protection'. I could argue,
using the same logic, that someone who bought 5" Flight, X20000 NCV couldn't
actually use their full speed unless they had the PD to resist the friction
of the air on their hypersonic body.
Most environmental effects can be modelled as 'attack powers' that do have
appropriate defenses - for example, if somebody had 30rED, I think they'd be
a lot less susceptible to extreme heat, even without the LS: Extreme Heat.
Life Support is really a _CHEAP SHORTCUT_ to avoid having to buy excessively
high PD and/or ED, Power Defense vs Diseases/Toxins, etc.
Now, Desolid isn't a cheap power - 40 Active at the rock bottom. That's
easily worth the ability to ignore minor environmental effects without
resorting to Life Support. If the environmental damage doesn't fit into the
SFX your Desolid is vulnerable to (example: if your Desolid is Vulnerable to
Light-Based Attacks, you'd still get sunburned, unless you had a nice high
rED or LS: Safe in High Radiation), it shouldn't really effect you.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Guns-ablazin', fu-fightin', spell-chuckin', rubber-monster-stompin' ACTION!"
-John comments on Feng Shui
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 09:58:58 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: "Night Vision"
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Robert A. West wrote:
Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>
> I modeled [night vision] as +4 Enhanced Perception (Sight), Only v. Night/Dark
> Penalties (-1/2). I didn't wish to give an otherwise Normal character UV
> Vision, as the special effects don't fit. Does anyone have any comments...
IMHO, the description of the power for UV Vision fits a photomultiplier
effect better than it fits actual UV vision, since moonlight contains no
UV and starlight very little. I have therefore ruled, with no objection
from anyone, that the 3-pt enhanced sense described in the book is really
Night Vision, and that UV-Vision is a different 3-pt sense, which is
mainly useful in seeing objects invisible to normal sight.
BTW, since I surcharge for "superpowers", the fact that a power can be
obtained by "normals" is of vital importance, even to PCs.
>
> - Jerry
--
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Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
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Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 10:10:50 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Reduced END Question
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John P Weatherman wrote:
>
> If Density Increase is bought with Reduced END, does the
> reduced END apply to the Strength DI provides or would it
> need to be bought seperately?
IMHO, advantages on Density Increase or Growth don't carry over to the
derived stats, so the answer is "no".
>
> Also, does passive Strength cost END to use?
You say such strange words. Passive STR? What is passive STR?
If you mean STR being used to hold an object in place (such as maintain a
grab), I would say, emphatically, "yes".
If you mean Casual STR, I would say "yes" as well, but the point is
usually moot, since the character will generally use full STR the same
phase to do something else, and you are only charged once/phase for the
END to use a single power. After all, the purpose of smashing through
the glass door is usually to do a movethrough on someone who is outside.
> Thanks,
> John
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Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
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From: Legionair@aol.com
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 14:22:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: In defense of the Saint
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First off, let me mention that I didn't particularly like the movie's plot.
There were holes in it big enough to drive a truck through. Some of it was
downright laughable. The only reason why I decided to make the write up was
based on Val Kilmer's attempts at some amount of characterization.
In a message dated 97-09-26 12:23:35 EDT, psansone@i1.net writes:
<< I like your character here, but a couple of things. One, if he pushes he
could lift a car. Probably not. A Str around 15 if not less would make
more sense for the movie. Secondly, wouldn't a KS: Saints or KS: Saint
Names be somewhere in his list of skills? I looked, maybe I overlooked it,
but thought that I'd just point this out. Take it easy and talk at you
later. >>
Two very good points, and I agree with both. The KS was a bit of an
oversight. Then again, it was mostly overlooked in the movie, so it's
fitting that I forgot it as well. :)
I would still keep the strength at the relatively high level I designed it
as. I'm going on the assumption that there wasn't very many clear cut
examples of his strength in the movie. He's extremely athletic in the movie
though, so it is possibly in proper line. It's debatable.
=-=-=-=-=-=
In a message dated 97-09-26 12:32:04 EDT, bsvitavs@bu.edu writes:
<< What does this simulate that a high Disguise Roll doesn't? I have no
objection to using a power to model a skill which isn't described in the
Hero rules, but why use a power for a skill that's quite adequately
defined already? >>
No, actually, as someone already pointed out, to simulate another person
you're supposed to have Shapechange and Disguise as well. I have another
reason for my choice of powers:
There were three distinct methods of impersonation/disguise I saw used in the
movie....
The first was the "blend into the crowd while off screen" move. Fairly
typical for any sort of action movie. I thought this was best written up on
an Instant Change that required a Trading roll. I also feel that this
disguise should be reflected in roleplaying, but that's not always the case.
The second was the "just a generic character" disguise. A nameless
Australian thief, an effeminate deal maker, an old cleaning lady, so on and
so forth. Not any one in particular, but enough to blend without having a
crowd to blend into. This is best written up as a Disguise roll.
The last was the true impersonation of another character. Granted, this
could be written up as a very high Disguise roll with Mimicry, but I think
that's a bit extreme. Shapechange allows the character to put the Disguise
together with alot of preparation but little pre-made materials (wigs, and
the sort). It also forces END to be used, which reflects the concentration
and so forth needed to remain "in character."
=-=-=-=-=-=
In a message dated 97-09-26 14:58:21 EDT, rook@sanfran.infinex.com writes:
<< Which doesn't fit the character. In the movie the Russian guys knew
who he was right from the start when they met him in Germany. He totally
blew it. And he knew it too, judging from what he did when he sat down at
the lady's table across from them. >>
Actually, this was another example of the very poor plot... (Anyone want to
comment on all of Russia's oil being hidden in a tank under a mansion in
Moscow?)
It seemed like Simon wanted the Russians to recognize him, but didn't want
the Russians to know that he knew they had recognized him. This would make
sense if he wanted the Russians to underestimate his skills, intelligence, or
disguises.
=-=-=-=-=-=
In a message dated 97-09-27 08:39:28 EDT, qts@nildram.co.uk writes:
<< What movie? The Saint was a TV series over here many years ago. Have
they remade it as a movie? >>
Yes, it was remade as a movie, but you didn't miss that much. :)
Jason
From: BCBattle@aol.com
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 14:54:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
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On 97-09-27 22:44:53 EDT,
ratinox@peorth.gweep.net (Stainless Steel Rat) wrote:
>> If he does not buy Life Support he does not have Life Support. He
>> cannot breathe in a vacuum or under water. He cannot survive the heat
>> of a volcano or the cold of a polar cap. If he wants these immunities
>> he needs to buy Life Support.
F> Let me get this straight. A character who buys desolidification is immune
F> to attacks that could vaporize rock, but will be hurt my molten rock?
>That is exactly what I am saying (spelling aside :). In Champions, if you
>did not pay for the ability, be it power, skill, or talent, you do not have
>it. If Life Support is required to survive in a hostile environment and
>you do not have it, YOU WILL DIE. No ammount of Desolidification or any
>other power will prevent that from happening.
That's bull. When you are desolid, you are desolid to all things except the
specific things that your special effects dictate that you are vunerable to.
As said in the rules.
In the given situation, trying to move through molten rock, you are able to
move through molten rock. End of story.
BUT if you don't have self-contained breathing--for instance--you have to
essentially hold your breath while you are moving through thick items. Your
character still has the need to breath, because desolidification does not
release you from that need.
There was a character who was magical, and used desolid. I reasoned that the
character still needed to breath, so I made her vunerable to gas attacks.
Therefore, the only problem she would have with the molten rock would be the
natural gases that would make any normal person pass out.
Though, if she hadn't been vunerable to gas attacks, she would still need to
breath, so walking through a 100-foot-thick brick wall would be difficult
without Life Support.
It's just that being desolid, she wouldn't be DAMAGED by breathing in the
wrong things.
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 15:32:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Weasel Attack!!!" <susano@access.digex.net>
Subject: CHAR: Mobile Infantry Trooper
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MOBILE INFANTRY TROOPER
Designers Notes:
I thought since _Starship Troopers_ is going to be hitting the theaters
soon, I'd take a swing at the original "Power-Armor Goon". So, I present
Robert Heinlein's 'Mobile Infantry'.
At some point in the far future, mankind runs into an enemy that can't be
reasoned with, negotiated with or even remotely understood by Terrans.
This enemy are the Klendathu or 'Bugs'. An insect hive-mind, the Bugs are
really only interested in one thing... conquest. To combat this threat,
Terra creates the Mobile Infantry, men in a powered armor suits that will
allow them to take the fight directly to the enemy. And not just anyone
gets to be an M.I. 'cap' trooper. First, you must survive *the* toughest
bootcamp in the universe, some resign, some get washed out, and some die.
Description:
Your typical M.I. trooper looks like.. well... your typical human. Boot
camp does build up the recruit's STR, CON, DEX and self-esteem (EGO &
PRE), but doesn't necessarily make him any smarter (although quick
thinking helps).
Powers Notes:
An M.I. Trooper's real power lies in his armor (see the separate
write-up). Aside from that, M.I. troopers are trained in a wide variety
of skills, from how to maintain the armor they use, to survival in the
wilderness, building improvised weapons, Hand-to-Hand combat, standard
tactics and how to use almost any weapon known to man. The M.I.'s one and
only real purpose is whacking on the enemy, and their training is designed
to allow them to do just that.
Disadvantages Notes:
The most important note about the MI is their sense of duty and
responsibility. They are highly motivated, both to the completion of
their mission (M.I. have a serious a 'can do!' attitude) and in the fact
that the "M.I. take care of their own - no matter what". M.I. don't
abandon their own, and always try and make pickup. As Johnny Rico states:
"If a man doesn't feel that way about it... I don't want him on my flank
when the trouble starts."
The Character:
STAT VAL COST
Str 13 3
Dex 15 15
Con 13 6
Body 11 2
Int 10 0
Ego 11 2
Pre 13 3
Com 10 0
PD 5 2
ED 4 1
Spd 3 5
Rec 6 0
End 26 0
Stun 25 0
Char Total 39
Power Total 63
Total Cost 102
COST POWERS & SKILLS
2 Martial Arts: Commando Training, use with Clubs, Knife
4 Block +2 OCV +2 DCV Block, Abort
4 Disarm -1 OCV +1 DCV 23 STR Disarm
3 Grab -1 OCV -1 DCV Grab 2 Limbs; 23 STR to Hold
4 Kick/Punch +0 OCV +2 DCV 4 1/2d6 Strike
3 Throw +0 OCV +1 DCV 2 1/2d6 + v/5; Target Falls
3 Breakfall 12-
3 Climbing 12-
1 Demolitions 8-
1 Electronics 8-
1 KS: The Enemy (aka 'Bugs') 8-
1 KS: Military (Mobile Infantry) History 8-
1 Mechanics 8-
2 PS: Soldier 11-
3 Survival 11-
3 Systems Operations 11-
3 Tactics 11-
11 WF: Common Melee Weapons, Common Missle Weapons, Small Arms,
Flamethrower, Grenade Launcher, HMG, Rocket Launcher, Man-guided
Missiles
1 Weaponsmith (improvised weapons) 8-
1 Perk: Military Rank
8 CSL: +1 with Combat
Disadvantages
50 Base
5 DF: MI Trooper (uniform)
15 Psych: Esprit de Corp
13 Watched: Mobile Infantry (MoPow, NCI) 11-
19 Experience
(Mobile Infantry created by Robert Heinlein, character sheet created by
Michael Surbrook)
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 15:36:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Hero system mail list" <susano@access.digex.net>
Subject: CHAR: Mobile Infantry Armor
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MOBILE INFANTRY ARMOR
Designers Notes:
And now we get to the good stuff, M.I. armor! I based the following write
up directly on items mentioned by Heinlein in the course of _Starship
Troopers_. He's not exactly forthcoming about certain specifics (like
'how much can the armor lift'?), so I did my best.
Description:
Heinlein doesn't really describe the armor visually, other than to say
that you look like "a big steel gorilla" with "gorilla-sized weapons"
while wearing it. With full kit, the armor weighs about 2,000 pounds.
Powers Notes:
First and foremost, M.I. powered armor grants a soldier extensive
protection for his surroundings. It defends him for enemy weapons,
including bullets, shrapnel, energy weapons and explosions. It has optic
and audio shields to protect the eyes and ears, and can functions as a
space suit if needed. It also comes complete with food and water
concentrates for extended operations. Second, the armor enhances the
wearer's intelligence gather abilities. IR snoopers, radar tracking,
internal radio, internal locator, internal clock, encrypted 'command
circuit', the works. Third, the suit increases the wearer's mobility.
Using a powerful series of synthetic muscles and jumps jets, the user can
hit close to 40 mph while 'on the bounce'. Finally, the suit increases
the user's physical strength, allowing him to carry more and bigger
weapons.
A note on suit stats. Heinlein stats that one man in M.I. armor can just
barely pick up a second man in armor. Hence, to 30 STR. The DEX add was
included since by its nature M.I. armor would make for a more stable
fighting platform, allowing the wearer greater ease of movement. The PRE
increase is simple, anyone wearing this thing is going to look pretty
scary. Finally, the suit has limitations in regards to its physical
abilities. Regardless of the abilities of the wearer, the suit *cannot*
be pushed beyond specific limits (in this sense it is much like a
vehicle). Thus, the Phys Lim to that regard.
A second note on weapons. A M.I. trooper is equipped with some highly
potent and destructive hand-heard devices. These include: a hand flamer,
used for anti-personnel and incendiary work; a heavy flamer, used to
burn/cut through objects (and people), a rocket launcher that can fire 2
kilogram nuclear warheads; a Y-rack bomb launcher that can be set to fire
automatically (and has a range of several hundred yards), belt bombs and
fire pills. I leave these toys up to the sick and twisted imaginations of
individual GMs.
Disadvantages Notes:
As I noted above, M.I. armor has physical limits on it's capabilities,
thus, the characteristic adds can't go beyond a certain point. Also,
extended operations can cause the suit to run into power management
problems. And by extended I don't mean a coulpe of Turns, I mean 12 to 18
hours.
The Character:
STAT VAL COST
Str 30* see below
Dex 18 see below
Con -- 0
Body -- 0
Int -- 0
Ego -- 0
Pre 20 see below
Com 10 see below
PD +4* see below
ED +4* see below
Spd -- 0
Rec -- 0
End -- 0
Stun -- 0
Char Total 0
Power Total 200
Total Cost 200
COST POWERS & SKILLS
* modifications for Density Increase included
27 Density Increase: 4 Levels, 0 END, Persistant, Always On, OIF:
Armor +20 STR, +4 PD/ED, -4" KB, 1000kg
7 DEX +5, Does not affect figured characteristics (-1/2), OIF: Armor
7 PRE +10, OIF: Armor
40 Armor: 20 DEF, OIF: Armor
8 Flash Defense (sight): 10 DEF, Hardened, OIF: Armor
5 Flash Defense (hearing): 7 DEF, OIF: Armor
18 Life Support: All except aging, OIF: Armor
4 Running: 0 END on 6", OIF: Armor
20 Superleap: +18" (20" total, 40" noncombat), 0 END, OIF: Armor
10 0 END on STR, OIF: Armor
2 Absolute Time Sense, OIF: Armor
2 Bump of Direction, OIF: Armor
7 High Range Radio Hearing, OIF: Armor
3 IR Vision, OIF: Armor
7 Mind Link: Related Group (other suits), Any suit - one at a time,
0 END, Only with other suits that have Mind Link (-1), OIF: Armor
33 Radar: 360!, Discriminatory, Targeting, OIF: Armor
Disadvantages
100 Base
15 DF: Mobile Infantry Power Armor
10 Phys: Certain characteristics are 'preset'. DEX = 18, Offensive
PRE = 20, COM = 10, SPD = 4
10 Phys: Suits require regular maintenance and replacement of power
cells
15 Watched: Mobile Infantry (MoPow, NCI) 14-
(Mobile Infantry Armor created by Robert Heinlein, character sheet created
by Michael Surbrook)
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Subject: Re: Reduced END Question
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 97 16:32:12 -0400
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
cc: <champ-l@omg.org>
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Robert A. West robtwest@erols.com 9/28/97 1:10 PM
>John P Weatherman wrote:
>> Also, does passive Strength cost END to use?
>
>You say such strange words. Passive STR? What is passive STR?
OK, guys, my very humble apologies for poor terminology. Passive
should be casual. It had been a long day and obviously I goofed.
PAX,
John
From: DocTough@aol.com
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 17:41:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Reduced END Question
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In a message dated 97-09-27 22:24:10 EDT, you write:
Doc reads...
<< If Density Increase is bought with Reduced END, does the
reduced END apply to the Strength DI provides or would it
need to be bought seperately?>>
Doc sez...
No, the character must still pay the full end for the STR gained through
Density Increase.
<<Also, does passive Strength cost END to use?>>
Generally, yes.
<< Ideas?
Thanks,
John>>
Doc Tough
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 20:14:25 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: CHAR: Mobile Infantry Trooper
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>MOBILE INFANTRY TROOPER
>At some point in the far future, mankind runs into an enemy that can't be
>reasoned with, negotiated with or even remotely understood by Terrans.
>This enemy are the Klendathu or 'Bugs'. An insect hive-mind, the Bugs are
>really only interested in one thing... conquest. To combat this threat,
>Terra creates the Mobile Infantry, men in a powered armor suits that will
>allow them to take the fight directly to the enemy.
Err..several 'points of order'. MIs weren't 'made' to combat the 'bug'
threat - they were around before humanity made the encounter. Second,
humanity generally didn't reason with other alien races, but quickly kicked
the crap out of them if they were any sort of threat (I don't exactly call
that 'reasoning'). In general, humanity was expanding through the universe,
crushing anything that served to hinder that goal of expansion. To
paraphrase of one of the book's characters: "If our expanding through the
universe is wrong, the universe will tell us by kicking the crap out of
humanity." But that's just for clarification.
>Disadvantages Notes:
>The most important note about the MI is their sense of duty and
>responsibility. They are highly motivated, both to the completion of
>their mission (M.I. have a serious a 'can do!' attitude) and in the fact
>that the "M.I. take care of their own - no matter what". M.I. don't
>abandon their own, and always try and make pickup. As Johnny Rico states:
>"If a man doesn't feel that way about it... I don't want him on my flank
>when the trouble starts."
Yes. I'll point out that in the book, the only way to gain a vote in
government was military service - so high motivation and responsibility is
almost a requirement for military service, not to mention getting through
boot camp! Further, there are ONLY 'fighting' MIs. The fighting MIs service
their own suits. The officers are on the front lines. EVERYBODY who's a MI
is a fighter, unlike modern armies, where you've got massive support and
logistics staff for every one 'fighting' man.
>The Character:
>
>STAT VAL COST
>Str 13 3
>Dex 15 15
>Con 13 6
>Body 11 2
>Int 10 0
>Ego 11 2
>Pre 13 3
>Com 10 0
>PD 5 2
>ED 4 1
>Spd 3 5
>Rec 6 0
>End 26 0
>Stun 25 0
>Char Total 39
>Power Total 63
>Total Cost 102
>
>COST POWERS & SKILLS
>2 Martial Arts: Commando Training, use with Clubs, Knife
>4 Block +2 OCV +2 DCV Block, Abort
>4 Disarm -1 OCV +1 DCV 23 STR Disarm
>3 Grab -1 OCV -1 DCV Grab 2 Limbs; 23 STR to Hold
>4 Kick/Punch +0 OCV +2 DCV 4 1/2d6 Strike
>3 Throw +0 OCV +1 DCV 2 1/2d6 + v/5; Target Falls
>
>3 Breakfall 12-
>3 Climbing 12-
>1 Demolitions 8-
>1 Electronics 8-
>1 KS: The Enemy (aka 'Bugs') 8-
>1 KS: Military (Mobile Infantry) History 8-
>1 Mechanics 8-
>2 PS: Soldier 11-
>3 Survival 11-
>3 Systems Operations 11-
>3 Tactics 11-
>11 WF: Common Melee Weapons, Common Missle Weapons, Small Arms,
> Flamethrower, Grenade Launcher, HMG, Rocket Launcher, Man-guided
> Missiles
>1 Weaponsmith (improvised weapons) 8-
>1 Perk: Military Rank
>8 CSL: +1 with Combat
Just one? :-) You forgot a little extra Running (I guess you could say the
SPD increase covers it). And I'd give EVERY MI a KS: Power Armor 11-, as
every one of them could strip down and rebuild their own suit.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Guns-ablazin', fu-fightin', spell-chuckin', rubber-monster-stompin' ACTION!"
-John comments on Feng Shui
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 20:14:31 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: CHAR: Mobile Infantry Armor
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>A second note on weapons. A M.I. trooper is equipped with some highly
>potent and destructive hand-heard devices. These include: a hand flamer,
>used for anti-personnel and incendiary work; a heavy flamer, used to
>burn/cut through objects (and people), a rocket launcher that can fire 2
>kilogram nuclear warheads; a Y-rack bomb launcher that can be set to fire
>automatically (and has a range of several hundred yards), belt bombs and
>fire pills. I leave these toys up to the sick and twisted imaginations of
>individual GMs.
Don't forget the psychological weapon that crys out "I'm a 30 second bomb!
I'm a 29 second bomb! I'm a 28 second bomb!" etc. :-) Extra PRE Attack maybe?
>33 Radar: 360!, Discriminatory, Targeting, OIF: Armor
Radar is already Targeting.
There was also, IIRC, a lighter, scout PA suit, and a bigger, heavy weapon
PA suit.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Guns-ablazin', fu-fightin', spell-chuckin', rubber-monster-stompin' ACTION!"
-John comments on Feng Shui
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: "Night Vision"
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Date: 28 Sep 1997 20:45:01 -0400
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "VL" == Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> writes:
VL> I agree that it probably shouldn't entirely negate all darkness
VL> penalties, but that might be done better by reducing it to 1 or 2 PER
VL> levels (making only "Dark Night" and pitch-black areas problems).
I suppose the real problem is that many tend to look at the names of the
senses and assume that that is what they really are -- which is wrong.
Ultraviolet Vision is not the ability to see UV light, nor is Infrared
Vision the ability to see IR light. IR Vision should be called
"Thermographic Vision" because that is what is described; likewise UV
Vision should be called "Lowlight/Night Vision" or "Light Amplification".
Neither really let one see into the IR or UV areas of the spectrum.
Real ultraviolet or infra-red vision does not allow one to see in the dark
any better than "normal" vision. Things that can naturally "see" into
these areas of the spectrum see more shades of blue and red, respectively.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Mobile Infantry Armor
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Date: 28 Sep 1997 20:53:44 -0400
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "S" == "Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> Hero system mail
>>>>> list" <susano@access.digex.net> writes:
S> MOBILE INFANTRY ARMOR
About the only comment I think I need to make is that there are *three*
types of MI armor: grunt, scout, and command.
Grunt armor is the backbone of the MI. Strong, tough, reasonably fast,
easy to mass-produce.
Scout armor is lighter and faster, and has better sensors. It is
physically weaker, and carries less armor and fewer weapons. The superior
electronics jack up the unit price somewhat.
Command armor is as fast as scout armor, as tough as a grunt, with top of
the line communications and electronics equipment, including large-scale
tactical display. Very expensive stuff.
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\
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
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Date: 28 Sep 1997 21:05:16 -0400
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "VL" == Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> writes:
VL> I'm looking in my BBB and I see on p. 272 that Lava can be defined as a
VL> 4d6K vs. energy defense (non-moving -- this is just the "heat"
VL> element). So, if I had a 24 rED, THAT power WOULD seem to "prevent
VL> that from happening", at least in that particular hostile environment.
Champions Deluxe, page 68, first column, second paragraph:
Of course, there are some problems with being desolid. Although a
desolid character can walk through the ground, he won't be able to
breathe unless he has appropriate Life Support.
Desolidification will protect one from attacks. But it will not protect
one from extreme environmental conditions. Dump a desolid character into a
volcano, and even if he manages to "float" on the surface of the magma,
while his desolidification will prevent him from being burned to a crisp,
the ambient temperature will kill him in short order.
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Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 21:38:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: CHAR: Mobile Infantry Armor
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On Sun, 28 Sep 1997, John and Ron Prins wrote:
> >A second note on weapons. A M.I. trooper is equipped with some highly
> >potent and destructive hand-heard devices. These include: a hand flamer,
> >used for anti-personnel and incendiary work; a heavy flamer, used to
> >burn/cut through objects (and people), a rocket launcher that can fire 2
> >kilogram nuclear warheads; a Y-rack bomb launcher that can be set to fire
> >automatically (and has a range of several hundred yards), belt bombs and
> >fire pills. I leave these toys up to the sick and twisted imaginations of
> >individual GMs.
>
> Don't forget the psychological weapon that crys out "I'm a 30 second bomb!
> I'm a 29 second bomb! I'm a 28 second bomb!" etc. :-) Extra PRE Attack maybe?
Most certainly.
> >33 Radar: 360!, Discriminatory, Targeting, OIF: Armor
>
> Radar is already Targeting.
Oh yeah. Hmmm, I think I'll yank the targeting and replace it with some
Telescopic PER bonuses to sight (telephoto lenses in helmet).
> There was also, IIRC, a lighter, scout PA suit, and a bigger, heavy weapon
> PA suit.
Yeah, I was thinking about writing each one up, but decided there wasn't
enough info to go on.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 21:44:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: CHAR: Mobile Infantry Trooper
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On Sun, 28 Sep 1997, John and Ron Prins wrote:
> >MOBILE INFANTRY TROOPER
>
> >At some point in the far future, mankind runs into an enemy that can't be
> >reasoned with, negotiated with or even remotely understood by Terrans.
> >This enemy are the Klendathu or 'Bugs'. An insect hive-mind, the Bugs are
> >really only interested in one thing... conquest. To combat this threat,
> >Terra creates the Mobile Infantry, men in a powered armor suits that will
> >allow them to take the fight directly to the enemy.
>
> Err..several 'points of order'. MIs weren't 'made' to combat the 'bug'
> threat - they were around before humanity made the encounter. Second,
> humanity generally didn't reason with other alien races, but quickly kicked
> the crap out of them if they were any sort of threat (I don't exactly call
> that 'reasoning'). In general, humanity was expanding through the universe,
> crushing anything that served to hinder that goal of expansion. To
> paraphrase of one of the book's characters: "If our expanding through the
> universe is wrong, the universe will tell us by kicking the crap out of
> humanity." But that's just for clarification.
I stand corrected (well, clairified anyway).
> >Disadvantages Notes:
> >The most important note about the MI is their sense of duty and
> >responsibility. They are highly motivated, both to the completion of
> >their mission (M.I. have a serious a 'can do!' attitude) and in the fact
> >that the "M.I. take care of their own - no matter what". M.I. don't
> >abandon their own, and always try and make pickup. As Johnny Rico states:
> >"If a man doesn't feel that way about it... I don't want him on my flank
> >when the trouble starts."
>
> Yes. I'll point out that in the book, the only way to gain a vote in
> government was military service - so high motivation and responsibility is
> almost a requirement for military service, not to mention getting through
> boot camp! Further, there are ONLY 'fighting' MIs. The fighting MIs service
> their own suits. The officers are on the front lines. EVERYBODY who's a MI
> is a fighter, unlike modern armies, where you've got massive support and
> logistics staff for every one 'fighting' man.
Yeah, he mentions that at one point. Something like 5 support people for
every man involved in actual combat.
> >8 CSL: +1 with Combat
>
> Just one? :-) You forgot a little extra Running (I guess you could say the
> SPD increase covers it). And I'd give EVERY MI a KS: Power Armor 11-, as
> every one of them could strip down and rebuild their own suit.
Hey, this is the 'generic' template. 1 CSL with all combat and no extra
Running. Seriously, I would expect and real vet to have that extra 1" and
another CSL in short order. As to the KS, yeah they should have it,
although not all of them could strip and rebuild their suit to such an
extant.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 21:47:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: CHAR: Mobile Infantry Armor
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On 28 Sep 1997, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> >>>>> "S" == "Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> Hero system mail
> >>>>> list" <susano@access.digex.net> writes:
>
> S> MOBILE INFANTRY ARMOR
>
> About the only comment I think I need to make is that there are *three*
> types of MI armor: grunt, scout, and command.
>
> Grunt armor is the backbone of the MI. Strong, tough, reasonably fast,
> easy to mass-produce.
>
> Scout armor is lighter and faster, and has better sensors. It is
> physically weaker, and carries less armor and fewer weapons. The superior
> electronics jack up the unit price somewhat.
>
> Command armor is as fast as scout armor, as tough as a grunt, with top of
> the line communications and electronics equipment, including large-scale
> tactical display. Very expensive stuff.
Good point Rat. When I post these guys to my website I'll include both
your notes and John's comments. Like I said before, I debated trying to
design scout and command suits (the basic suit is called a marauder BTW)
but didn't feel comfortable with the limited descriptions.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 23:23:23 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
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>Champions Deluxe, page 68, first column, second paragraph:
>
> Of course, there are some problems with being desolid. Although a
> desolid character can walk through the ground, he won't be able to
> breathe unless he has appropriate Life Support.
>
>Desolidification will protect one from attacks. But it will not protect
>one from extreme environmental conditions. Dump a desolid character into a
>volcano, and even if he manages to "float" on the surface of the magma,
>while his desolidification will prevent him from being burned to a crisp,
>the ambient temperature will kill him in short order.
I dunno, Rat, but your example seems to support the idea that when you're
desolid you're 'totally' cut off from the environment (i.e. "can't breathe")
you're in - in which case you wouldn't take damage after all.
To wit - if I can't breathe, then the noxious gas environment on the surface
of Venus can hardly effect me, can it? Then why should the surface temperatures?
Further, the Desolid premise you support sort of defeats the purpose of
desolid - If I define a NND attack and none of the Defenses are listed as
Desolid, my being Desolid is worthless? I hardly think so. There should be
_no_ (IMHO) real difference between an 'environmental effect' and an 'attack
power' WRT Desolid. The only things that can effect a Desolid character are
(as per the Desolid writeup):
A.) the specific Desolid vulnerability
B.) powers with the Affects Desolid advantage
C.) Mental powers (unless you buy them up too).
So unless you've defined an environmental effect as 'affects desolid', I
don't see how Environmental Effects (general case) can affect a Desolid
(specific case) character.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Guns-ablazin', fu-fightin', spell-chuckin', rubber-monster-stompin' ACTION!"
-John comments on Feng Shui
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 00:28:33 -0500
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
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At 09:05 PM 9/28/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "VL" == Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> writes:
>
>VL> I'm looking in my BBB and I see on p. 272 that Lava can be defined as a
>VL> 4d6K vs. energy defense (non-moving -- this is just the "heat"
>VL> element). So, if I had a 24 rED, THAT power WOULD seem to "prevent
>VL> that from happening", at least in that particular hostile environment.
>
>Champions Deluxe, page 68, first column, second paragraph:
>
> Of course, there are some problems with being desolid. Although a
> desolid character can walk through the ground, he won't be able to
> breathe unless he has appropriate Life Support.
>
Apples, oranges. I'm talking about heat, they're talking about breathing.
I believe I already pointed out that suffocation does not mimic a standard
attack.
On thinking about this, I'm really starting to feel that the real problem is
that "heat/cold" should never have BEEN in Life Support. It's basically
because of this single element that they have to go to the contortions of
saying that "attacks using this SFX can still hurt you even if you're
'immune' to them". The other elements represent items that will either be
represented as oddball NNDs (chokeholds, the poisons/diseases from the
Bestiary, etc.) or just not represented at all mechanically (aging). Bump
out LS: Heat/Cold, and I think most "Desolid/LS" conflicts evaporate.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely. |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 97 09:10:41 GMT
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk
From: Steve McGinness <smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Popeye.
Cc: champ-l@org.omg
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At 04:33 PM 27/09/97, you wrote:
>3d6 Aid to Dex Base cost 15
>Advantage: Fades in 5 mins (+1/2 = 15+7=22 Active)
>Disadvantage: All fades at once (-1)
>OAEF: -1 1/4
>
>So we have 15 Active with a -1 1/4 limitation and 7 Active with a -2
>1/4 limitation
>
>(15/2.25)+(7/3.25)=7+2=9 Points!
>
I htink there is another route that might be looked at.
You used a 3D6 aid to DEX costing 15. Now that should get you, on average 4
DEX??
If you bought the power as +5 DEX continuing recoverable charge what would
it be then?
I don't have my books to hand so I think I'll have to leave it.
The advantages here are that you are not trying to make up rules or change
the way a power works, and that you know exactly what you will get when you
turn on the power.
Stephen
From: Dazzle489@aol.com
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 08:02:19 -0400 (EDT)
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Desolidification p.s.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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<< Would a character with Desolidification be able to phase through a
character with the Hardened advantage? If not, wouldn't the Hardened fellow
be able to damage him normally?
>>
My reply is .... is a character allowed to have hardened....
otherwise I would not think a desolid could pass thro a character with
hardened armor...
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 06:23:36 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 02:54 PM 9/28/97 -0400, BCBattle@aol.com wrote:
>On 97-09-27 22:44:53 EDT,
>ratinox@peorth.gweep.net (Stainless Steel Rat) wrote:
>
>>> If he does not buy Life Support he does not have Life Support. He
>>> cannot breathe in a vacuum or under water. He cannot survive the heat
>>> of a volcano or the cold of a polar cap. If he wants these immunities
>>> he needs to buy Life Support.
>
>F> Let me get this straight. A character who buys desolidification is immune
>F> to attacks that could vaporize rock, but will be hurt my molten rock?
>
>>That is exactly what I am saying (spelling aside :). In Champions, if you
>>did not pay for the ability, be it power, skill, or talent, you do not have
>>it. If Life Support is required to survive in a hostile environment and
>>you do not have it, YOU WILL DIE. No ammount of Desolidification or any
>>other power will prevent that from happening.
>
>That's bull. When you are desolid, you are desolid to all things except the
>specific things that your special effects dictate that you are vunerable to.
> As said in the rules.
Let me get this straight.
Stainless Steel Rat is arguing a loose interpretation of the rules based
on logic, and others are arguing for a by-the-book ruling?
Was this on the list of Signs of the Apocalypse discussed a few weeks ago?
(PS: FWIW I'm with Rat on this one, mainly for the reason quoted above.)
---
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 06:28:52 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 11:23 PM 9/28/97 -0400, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>>Champions Deluxe, page 68, first column, second paragraph:
>>
>> Of course, there are some problems with being desolid. Although a
>> desolid character can walk through the ground, he won't be able to
>> breathe unless he has appropriate Life Support.
>>
>>Desolidification will protect one from attacks. But it will not protect
>>one from extreme environmental conditions. Dump a desolid character into a
>>volcano, and even if he manages to "float" on the surface of the magma,
>>while his desolidification will prevent him from being burned to a crisp,
>>the ambient temperature will kill him in short order.
>
>I dunno, Rat, but your example seems to support the idea that when you're
>desolid you're 'totally' cut off from the environment (i.e. "can't breathe")
>you're in - in which case you wouldn't take damage after all.
>
>To wit - if I can't breathe, then the noxious gas environment on the surface
>of Venus can hardly effect me, can it? Then why should the surface
temperatures?
If you're underground, then you don't have to worry about the noxious
gas environment on the surface whether you're Desolid or not. But you
still need Life Support to breathe down there or you'll suffocate, whether
you're Desolid or not.
>So unless you've defined an environmental effect as 'affects desolid', I
>don't see how Environmental Effects (general case) can affect a Desolid
>(specific case) character.
Most natural environmental effects can and probably should be defined as
Affects Desolid. Or, more specifically, Desolid should not be defined as
protecting against environmental effects, in much the same way that it
should not logically protect against sensory attacks.
---
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 06:32:37 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Desolidification p.s.
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 08:02 AM 9/29/97 -0400, Dazzle489@aol.com wrote:
>
><< Would a character with Desolidification be able to phase through a
> character with the Hardened advantage? If not, wouldn't the Hardened fellow
> be able to damage him normally?
> >>
>
>My reply is .... is a character allowed to have hardened....
>
>otherwise I would not think a desolid could pass thro a character with
>hardened armor...
Why not?
---
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
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Date: 29 Sep 1997 11:55:46 -0400
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "JaRP" == John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net> writes:
JaRP> I dunno, Rat, but your example seems to support the idea that when
JaRP> you're desolid you're 'totally' cut off from the environment
JaRP> (i.e. "can't breathe") you're in - in which case you wouldn't take
JaRP> damage after all.
Again:
>> Champions Deluxe, page 68, first column, second paragraph:
>>
>> Of course, there are some problems with being desolid. Although a
>> desolid character can walk through the ground, he won't be able to
>> breathe unless he has appropriate Life Support.
So you will not take damage... the hostile nature of the environment is
just as lethal.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
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Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 12:10:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: In defense of the Saint
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On Sun, 28 Sep 1997 Legionair@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 97-09-26 12:32:04 EDT, bsvitavs@bu.edu writes:
>
> << What does this simulate that a high Disguise Roll doesn't? I have no
> objection to using a power to model a skill which isn't described in the
> Hero rules, but why use a power for a skill that's quite adequately
> defined already? >>
>
> No, actually, as someone already pointed out, to simulate another person
> you're supposed to have Shapechange and Disguise as well. I have another
> reason for my choice of powers:
>
You misunderstand. If Shape Shift is used to duplicate a particular
individual, it automatically requires a Disguise Roll. This is not to say
that a character with Disguise needs Shape Shift to create such a guise.
To quote from the rules for Disguise (BBB, p. 25): "The character can,
with a successful roll, alter his appearance to make himself
unrecognizable; he can also disguise himself to look like a specific
person."
> There were three distinct methods of impersonation/disguise I saw used in the
> movie....
>
> The first was the "blend into the crowd while off screen" move. Fairly
> typical for any sort of action movie. I thought this was best written up on
> an Instant Change that required a Trading roll. I also feel that this
> disguise should be reflected in roleplaying, but that's not always the case.
>
I wasn't quite sure what that instant change was. From this description,
I'd be more inclined to do this as a Shadowing skill, or perhaps a
variation on Stealth.
> The second was the "just a generic character" disguise. A nameless
> Australian thief, an effeminate deal maker, an old cleaning lady, so on and
> so forth. Not any one in particular, but enough to blend without having a
> crowd to blend into. This is best written up as a Disguise roll.
>
Agreed.
> The last was the true impersonation of another character. Granted, this
> could be written up as a very high Disguise roll with Mimicry, but I think
> that's a bit extreme. Shapechange allows the character to put the Disguise
> together with alot of preparation but little pre-made materials (wigs, and
> the sort). It also forces END to be used, which reflects the concentration
> and so forth needed to remain "in character."
>
See above - this looks like a pure Disguise roll to me. As for materials,
the Disguise skill clearly states that "Disguises can be
spur-of-the-moment things, like putting on a fake moustache, or can
require hours of preparation... Makeup and proper props add +1 to +3 to
the roll."
By the way, despite these quibbles, I appreciate your write-up. I didn't
see the movie, but I do know the character from the TV series and books.
Overall, I like your interpretation.
And I will grant that the Disguise rules could be fleshed out a bit more.
It seems like disguising oneself as an individual should be harder than
simply making oneself unrecognizable, but the rules don't spell out any
automatic penalties or bonuses. I generally give people merely hiding
their identities a +1 to +3 bonus for an easy task, as per the
standard skill modifiers chart.
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 09:15:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: "Night Vision"
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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Stainless Steel Rat writes:
> I suppose the real problem is that many tend to look at the names of the
> senses and assume that that is what they really are -- which is wrong.
> Ultraviolet Vision is not the ability to see UV light, nor is Infrared
> Vision the ability to see IR light. IR Vision should be called
> "Thermographic Vision" because that is what is described; likewise UV
> Vision should be called "Lowlight/Night Vision" or "Light Amplification".
> Neither really let one see into the IR or UV areas of the spectrum.
>
> Real ultraviolet or infra-red vision does not allow one to see in the dark
> any better than "normal" vision. Things that can naturally "see" into
> these areas of the spectrum see more shades of blue and red, respectively.
Um, thermographic vision _is_ the ability to see into the IR range --
specifically, it is to see into the 300K blackbody IR range or below, with
sufficient ability to discriminate wavelengths that you can detect minor
temperature gradients. If you can see into the IR range far enough to pick up
the primary wavelengths of emitted blackbody radiation at a given temperature,
you _can_ see in the dark, because everything glows.
There is, however, a rather large area on the spectrum between red light and
300k IR. Also, 'UV vision' as described in H4 is basically light
amplification, this I'll agree with (though real UV vision plus a black light
lamp will give night vision as well; it will also cause occasional objects to
glow weird colors and cause cataracts. As such, it isn't very useful.)
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
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Date: 29 Sep 1997 12:31:41 -0400
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "VL" == Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> writes:
VL> Bump out LS: Heat/Cold, and I think most "Desolid/LS" conflicts
VL> evaporate.
The human body cannot survive having its temperature raised above 104
degrees F for too long before permanant damage to the brain and central
nervous system starts. There is a similar threshold at around 90 degrees F
on the low end, at which point hypothermia starts. The Desolidification
*power* will not protect one from these effects. If your Desolidification
*special effects* say that it should, then you should buy the appropriate
Life Support as well.
Hero is built around discrete powers to provide effects. If multiple
powers are required to simulate a given effect, then multiple powers should
be purchased to do so. The conflict arises when someone forgets this and
tries to use one power to get the benefits of another power without paying
for it.
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--
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: "Night Vision"
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Date: 29 Sep 1997 12:41:08 -0400
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>>>>> "AJ" == Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> writes:
AJ> Um, thermographic vision _is_ the ability to see into the IR range --
Not at all. IR vision is the ability to see IR light (EM radiation in the
IR band of the spectrum); thermographic vision is the ability to
distinguish temperature gradients.
My dad tested the first "portable" IR vision gear for the US Army during
the Koran Conflict. It was a bulky generator powering an equally bulky IR
spotlight and a huge IR scope that mounted on a BAR. The scope allowed the
shooter to see IR light reflected from the spotlight. It was not
thermographic.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
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\ exposure to Happy Fun Ball.
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 09:56:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: "Night Vision"
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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Stainless Steel Rat writes:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> >>>>> "AJ" == Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> writes:
>
> AJ> Um, thermographic vision _is_ the ability to see into the IR range --
>
> Not at all. IR vision is the ability to see IR light (EM radiation in the
> IR band of the spectrum); thermographic vision is the ability to
> distinguish temperature gradients.
While it is true that not all IR vision is thermographic, all thermographic
vision _is_ IR. This was perhaps unclearly stated. Specifically,
thermographic vision is the ability to see IR within the temperature band
characteristic of blackbody radiation at typical outdoors temperatures, which
is to say in the vicinity of 100,000 angstroms.
>
> My dad tested the first "portable" IR vision gear for the US Army during
> the Koran Conflict. It was a bulky generator powering an equally bulky IR
> spotlight and a huge IR scope that mounted on a BAR. The scope allowed the
> shooter to see IR light reflected from the spotlight. It was not
> thermographic.
True, there is a difference between 'active IR' (which uses an IR spotlight,
and can't detect heat sources below a few thousand degrees), and 'passive IR'
(which can detect the _amount_ of heat an object gives off, but not actual
temperature) and 'thermographic' (which can detect both the amount and the
wavelength). However, thermographic vision is a type of IR (it is unclear from
the H4 description if IR vision is actually passive IR or thermographic
vision).
Incidentally, as a random point, typical light intensification systems (i.e.
'UV vision') frequently pick up light a significant distance into the IR band,
and are capable of being used with an IR spotlight.
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:08:21 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
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On Mon, 29 Sep 1997, Vox Ludator! wrote:
> On thinking about this, I'm really starting to feel that the real problem is
> that "heat/cold" should never have BEEN in Life Support. It's basically
> because of this single element that they have to go to the contortions of
> saying that "attacks using this SFX can still hurt you even if you're
> 'immune' to them". The other elements represent items that will either be
> represented as oddball NNDs (chokeholds, the poisons/diseases from the
> Bestiary, etc.) or just not represented at all mechanically (aging).
But extreme heat and cold fall into that category too, more or less. If I
wanted to simulate Sahara-level heat, I might not use an actual NND EB,
but it would still be some funky non-standard attack (possibly an NND END
Drain, with STUN & BODY Drains which kick in when the previous stat wears
out).
Molten rock may have been a bad example from the start, since I'm not sure
whether LS vs extreme temperatures would help there. I'm inclined to say
you;d need rED.
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:22:49 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
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On Sun, 28 Sep 1997, John and Ron Prins wrote:
> > Of course, there are some problems with being desolid. Although a
> > desolid character can walk through the ground, he won't be able to
> > breathe unless he has appropriate Life Support.
[...]
> I dunno, Rat, but your example seems to support the idea that when you're
> desolid you're 'totally' cut off from the environment (i.e. "can't breathe")
> you're in - in which case you wouldn't take damage after all.
If you were _totally_ cut off from your environment, then you'd always
need LS to breathe, regardless of whether you were in the ground or in the
air, no?
> To wit - if I can't breathe, then the noxious gas environment on the surface
> of Venus can hardly effect me, can it? Then why should the surface
> temperatures?
But as the example states, unless you buy LS your ability to breathe _is_
based on the in which substance you're currently immersed, so the noxious
gas does affect you.
> Further, the Desolid premise you support sort of defeats the purpose of
> desolid - If I define a NND attack and none of the Defenses are listed as
> Desolid, my being Desolid is worthless?
This is entirely SFX dependent, even moreso than most things in Champions.
If it makes sense for the attack to affect you then of course it will,
regardless of whether the people involved neglected to _explicitly_
include this attack in the list of things to which the Desolid is
vulnerable, or this variety of Desolid in the list of things which stop
the NND.
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:39:07 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: "Night Vision"
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On Sun, 28 Sep 1997, Vox Ludator! wrote:
> >You should not be putting limitations on skill levels that cost less than 5
> >points each.
>
> I've pointed this out before, but it bears repeating: this is a hokey,
> thoughtless restriction -- just look at the example in the book under Combat
> Levels, where poor Marksman pays 2 /extra/ points for the "privilege" of
> having a limited power. (+4 5-pt. levels, OAF, OCV-only automatically,
> isn't much different from +4 2-pt. levels).
Yes, but you're neglecting the added benefit he gets... he now throws more
accurately when he's holding that gun.:)
More seriously, I might point out that this supposed Limitation doesn't
actually limit him either... the attack itself can't be used if he loses
that Focus, so the loss of levels with the one attack doesn't hurt him any
more. A more rational way of dealing with this is to say that you can't
put Limitations on CSLs that duplicate limitations on the relevant
attack(s), though.
> But in any case, it's apples and origins, since Perception levels aren't
> skill levels -- they're technically an "enhanced sense", so limit away.
Even if they were, that restriction only exists for Combat Skill Levels
and Range Skill Levels (where 3 is the minimum, not 5); there's no such
rule for Skill Levels.
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:41:56 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: In defense of the Saint
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Sun, 28 Sep 1997 Legionair@aol.com wrote:
> There were three distinct methods of impersonation/disguise I saw used in the
> movie....
>
> The first was the "blend into the crowd while off screen" move. Fairly
> typical for any sort of action movie. I thought this was best written up on
> an Instant Change that required a Trading roll. I also feel that this
> disguise should be reflected in roleplaying, but that's not always the case.
Trading? How is Trading at all relevant to this?
> The second was the "just a generic character" disguise. A nameless
> Australian thief, an effeminate deal maker, an old cleaning lady, so on and
> so forth. Not any one in particular, but enough to blend without having a
> crowd to blend into. This is best written up as a Disguise roll.
Correct.
> The last was the true impersonation of another character. Granted, this
> could be written up as a very high Disguise roll with Mimicry, but I think
> that's a bit extreme.
Ummm... that's what Disguise is _for_. Read the second half of the second
sentence of the description.
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:43:57 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: Reduced END Question
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On 27 Sep 1997, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> JPW> Also, does passive Strength cost END to use?
>
> "Passive Strength"? There is no such thing. Casual Strength (half your
> total Strength) does use END. Everything uses END unless otherwise
> specified.
Plus, the BBB specifically says that it does in the section where Casual
STR is defined (p 172, top of second column). I don't particularly agree
with that myself, though.
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 12:56:36 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Star Trek Equipment...
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I'm about to run a Star Trek type game in the Champions Universe. I seem to
remember someone giving Star Trek equipment stats or at least that of the
Phasers. I was wondering if anyone had built various Star Trek equipment
for Champions and if they could either post it on the list or e-mail me
direct. I would appreciate it, any little bit helps in creating a game.
Thanks and talk at you later.
Sparx
====================================================
I'll fire aimlessly if you don't come out!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: "Night Vision"
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 29 Sep 1997 14:19:35 -0400
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "AJ" == Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> writes:
AJ> While it is true that not all IR vision is thermographic, all
AJ> thermographic vision _is_ IR. This was perhaps unclearly stated.
That I can agree with, though what is perceived is often radically
different. I'll get to that in a moment.
AJ> Specifically, thermographic vision is the ability to see IR within the
AJ> temperature band characteristic of blackbody radiation at typical
AJ> outdoors temperatures, which is to say in the vicinity of 100,000
AJ> angstroms.
Right. The important, practical difference being that "true" IR vision
extends the number of hues that are visible below "red" while thermographic
vision roughly equates temperature with "brightness". Thermographic vision
works without much ambient "light" because everything with a temperature
greater or less than ambient will show up as a bright or dark spot. IR
vision, like true UV vision, requires an active IR light source of some
sort.
[...]
AJ> Incidentally, as a random point, typical light intensification systems
AJ> (i.e. 'UV vision')
Which usually are *not* ultraviolet. Light amplification != ability to
see UV light... which was a point I made earlier, regardless of what Hero
calls the power.
AJ> frequently pick up light a significant distance into the IR band, and
AJ> are capable of being used with an IR spotlight.
Oh, yeah. Though for military applications, active emissions are highly
frowned upon. But they do a nice job of picking out IR lasers used for
targeting systems, making it useful for SWAT work.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
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\ Earth, presumably from outer space.
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 11:53:46 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: hero-l@omg.org
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>
> On Mon, 29 Sep 1997, Vox Ludator! wrote:
>
> > On thinking about this, I'm really starting to feel that the real problem is
> > that "heat/cold" should never have BEEN in Life Support. It's basically
> > because of this single element that they have to go to the contortions of
> > saying that "attacks using this SFX can still hurt you even if you're
> > 'immune' to them". The other elements represent items that will either be
> > represented as oddball NNDs (chokeholds, the poisons/diseases from the
> > Bestiary, etc.) or just not represented at all mechanically (aging).
>
That's just an element of the genre, the fact that the guy who lives
on the Sun can be hurt by a fire blast. Consider it the diference between
being in the element as opposed to being punched by it.
> Molten rock may have been a bad example from the start, since I'm not sure
> whether LS vs extreme temperatures would help there. I'm inclined to say
> you;d need rED.
>
>
If a guy can survive the heat of the sun or the cold of space, the only
thing the lava should be good for is smothering or entangling. Perhaps crushing
damage as well.
The moment you try to make Super Hero stuff fit reality is the moment
the whole system begins to fall apart.
Subject: Re: "Night Vision"
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 97 13:56:44 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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On 9/29/97 11:41 AM, Stainless Steel Rat (ratinox@peorth.gweep.net) Said:
>Not at all. IR vision is the ability to see IR light (EM radiation in the
>IR band of the spectrum); thermographic vision is the ability to
>distinguish temperature gradients.
>
>My dad tested the first "portable" IR vision gear for the US Army during
>the Koran Conflict. It was a bulky generator powering an equally bulky IR
>spotlight and a huge IR scope that mounted on a BAR. The scope allowed the
>shooter to see IR light reflected from the spotlight. It was not
>thermographic.
The Night Vision Goggles worn by fighter pilots these days weigh about
6-7 pounds (strapped to your face & hanging out by about 8 inches, this
is _very_ heavy) and "translate" infra-red light into visible light. (ie.
they convert wavelengths from infra-red to visible) They don't "send out"
any emissions and they are not thermographic (for fighter pilots, that
would be highly disadvantageous).
Cave
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Reduced END Question
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>>>>> "TB" == Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> writes:
TB> Plus, the BBB specifically says that it does in the section where
TB> Casual STR is defined (p 172, top of second column). I don't
TB> particularly agree with that myself, though.
Like I said, *everything* costs Endurance unless otherwise noted.
Unless you want 100-Strength to be able to throw 10d6 punches without
spending any END.
Thing is, once you have spent your Endurance for Strength in your Action
Phase, you do not need to spend it again. If you use Strength to break out
of an Entangle, and then use your Strength to punch someone, you only need
to spend the END once.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly
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\
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 12:53:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: "Night Vision"
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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Stainless Steel Rat writes:
> Right. The important, practical difference being that "true" IR vision
> extends the number of hues that are visible below "red" while thermographic
> vision roughly equates temperature with "brightness". Thermographic vision
> works without much ambient "light" because everything with a temperature
> greater or less than ambient will show up as a bright or dark spot. IR
> vision, like true UV vision, requires an active IR light source of some
> sort.
Actually, you're mixing up your definitions -- what you define as 'true' IR is
more or less what _defines_ a thermograph. Also, it is possible to have an IR
system which is not a thermograph _and_ does not require an IR light source --
this is called 'passive IR'.
Both a passive IR system and a thermograph detect IR emissions, and in more or
less the same frequencies. The difference is that passive IR does _not_ detect
hues -- it's a black and white system.
When detecting an object by emitted radiation (which is IR at room
temperature), there are two ways to determine how hot it is:
(a) How much light does it emit? (function of temperature and IR-frequency
albedo). In other words, 'how bright is it'.
(b) What frequency of light does it emit the most of? (usually, a flat
function of temperature). In other words, 'what color is it'.
'passive IR' detects the first, while a thermograph detects the second.
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Steve McGinness\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "champ-l@org.omg" <champ-l@org.omg>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 97 20:16:59
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Popeye.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Mon, 29 Sep 97 09:10:41 GMT, Steve McGinness wrote:
>At 04:33 PM 27/09/97, you wrote:
>>3d6 Aid to Dex Base cost 15
>>Advantage: Fades in 5 mins (+1/2 = 15+7=22 Active)
>>Disadvantage: All fades at once (-1)
>>OAEF: -1 1/4
>>
>>So we have 15 Active with a -1 1/4 limitation and 7 Active with a -2
>>1/4 limitation
>>
>>(15/2.25)+(7/3.25)=7+2=9 Points!
>>
>
>I htink there is another route that might be looked at.
>
>You used a 3D6 aid to DEX costing 15. Now that should get you, on average 4
>DEX??
>
>If you bought the power as +5 DEX continuing recoverable charge what would
>it be then?
This depends upon whether the the GM will allow characteristics as
powers. YOu could always have the Aid with a +2 Advantage 'Affects All
Characteristics' - after all Popeye generally does know exactly what to
do/ where to look/ look so handsome (to Olive!)
qts
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: "Night Vision"
Mail-Copies-To: never
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>>>>> "AJ" == Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> writes:
AJ> Actually, you're mixing up your definitions -- what you define as
AJ> 'true' IR is more or less what _defines_ a thermograph.
I think you are thinking that I am thinking of "near IR", a segment of the
IR band close to the "red" segment of the visible spectrum. This is the
segment where temperature roughly equates to light. But still, an IR
sensor will see shades of color[1] (frequency) whereas a thermograph will
see varying levels of brightness (intensity).
AJ> Also, it is possible to have an IR system which is not a thermograph
AJ> _and_ does not require an IR light source -- this is called 'passive
AJ> IR'.
Yup... Russia has been using this for a few years, now, starting with the
MiG-29 and Su-27. It is one area of technical development that Russia has
far and away outstripped US development.
[1] "color" is technically incorrect, since the concept of color is tied to
a specific range of frequencies. It is an assumption that a thing capable
of perceiving into the IR band as well as the "visible" band using the same
sensory aparatus would be able to perceive more reddish shades than a
normal human would.
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 17:13:28 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Reduced END Question
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 03:49 PM 9/29/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>Thing is, once you have spent your Endurance for Strength in your Action
>Phase, you do not need to spend it again. If you use Strength to break out
>of an Entangle, and then use your Strength to punch someone, you only need
>to spend the END once.
Hm. I've always played it where these were two different exertions of
STR (at least, it seems logical to me). Is this rule, as you stated it,
explicitly given in the BBB anywhere? (I don't expect it in those exact
words, but something like it.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
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From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 97 00:50:46
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: CHAR: [New Gods] Metron
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Ha! You though I was done, didn't you? No, just having computer problems.
When I started writing up this twit I really thought he was going to be a fun character to
write up... He wasn't. I'm still not really satisfied with it, but here it is:
Metron
30 STR 20
28 DEX 54
38 CON 56
14 BODY 8
53 INT 43
45 EGO 70
18 PRE 8
10 COM 0
13 PD 7
15 ED 7
5 SPD 12
14 REC 0
76 END 0
48 STUN 0
Characteristics Cost: 285
3 Scientist
2 SC: Astronomy 20-,(INT based)
2 SC: Biochemistry 20-,(INT based)
2 SC: Biology 20-,(INT based)
2 SC: Botany 20-,(INT based)
2 SC: Chemistry 20-,(INT based)
2 SC: Exobiology 20-,(INT based)
2 SC: Genetics 20-,(INT based)
2 SC: Inorganic Chemistry 20-,(INT based)
2 SC: Mathematics 20-,(INT based)
2 SC: Medicine 20-,(INT based)
2 SC: Metallurgy 20-,(INT based)
2 SC: Molecular Biology 20-,(INT based)
2 SC: Nuclear Physics 20-,(INT based)
2 SC: Physics 20-,(INT based)
2 SC: Robotics 20-,(INT based)
2 SC: Subatomic Physics 20-,(INT based)
2 SC: Sociology 20-,(INT based)
2 SC: Virology 20-,(INT based)
2 SC: Zoology 20-,(INT based)
18 6 Levels: All science skills
15 Inventor 26-
2 AK: New Genesis 11-
2 AK: Apokolips 11-
3 AK: Promethean Galaxy 20-,(INT based)
5 14- Contact: Darkseid
5 14- Contact: Highfather
3 Absolute Time Sense
5 Cramming
10 Eidetic Memory
3 Lightning Calculator
3 Speed Reading
3 KS: The Source 20-,(INT based)
8 +4 Enhanced PER,Sight
6 +2 Enhanced PER,with all senses
3 Life Support,immune to aging
EQUIPMENT
120 VPP (60),can change powers as 0 phase,"Misc gadgets as
appropriate - Use Inventor as skil roll"
281 Vehicle: Mobius Chair
Powers Cost: 536
Total Cost: 821
Base Points: 100
25 Psych Lim,"Irrational Attraction to Knowledge",very common,
total
5 Rep,"Not entirely trusted by anyone",occur 8-
691 Really cool chair bonus
Disadvantages Total: 721
Experience Spent: 0
Total Points: 821
Mobius Chair
20 STR 5
50 BODY 39
1 SIZE 5
20 DEF 54
10 DEX 0
4 SPD 20
Characteristics Cost: 123
52 EC (52)
68a) 35" Flight,x8 Non-Combat,0 END(+1/2)
70b) 35/35 Force Field,x1 Hardened(+1/4),0 END(+1/2) 0
60c) 50 STR TK,0 END(+1/2) 0
83d) 10" Teleport,x4 Increased Mass,x250 Increased Range,4
Floating Locations,0 END(+1/2)
53e) X-D Move,any dimension,time travel,x4 Increased Mass,0 END
(+1/2) 0
27 Life Support,doesn't breathe,doesn't eat/sleep/excrete,safe
in vacuum/pressure,safe in radiation,safe in heat/cold,
immune to disease
28 x500 FTL
55 Followers: Computer (Mother Box's dumber cousin)
Powers Cost: 496
Total Cost: 619
Base Points: 605
15 Distinctive,concealable,major
Disadvantages Total: 15
Experience Spent: 0
Total Points: 620
Mobius Chair's Computer
30 INT 20
10 DEX 0
4 SPD 20
Characteristics Cost: 40
35 16- Danger Sense,any attack,immediate vicinity
17 +6 Detect,make into sense,Desc: Life
10 360 Degree Sensing,Unusual Sense Group
120 VPP (60),can change powers as 0 phase
Note on VPP - Computer has no END, so all powers must be 0
END.
23 VPP Manipulation 25-
9 Navigation 14-
11 Extra-dimensional Navigation 15-
3 Systems Operation 15-
3 Pilot Mobius Chair 15-
1 Program: {define as appropriate}
1 Program: {define as appropriate}
1 Program: {define as appropriate}
1 Program: {define as appropriate}
Powers Cost: 235
Total Cost: 275
Base Points: 275
Disadvantages Total: 0
Experience Spent: 0
Total Points: 275
My basis for the powers and characteristics is a combination
of Mayfair's DC Heroes RPG, DC Comic's Who's Who in the
DC Universe, ad my own twisted mind.
===================================================
Character write-up by John Desmarais. Copy and use as
you will. Comments to John.Desmarais@ibm.net
===================================================
From: Legionair@aol.com
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 22:01:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: In defense of the Saint
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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In a message dated 97-09-29 12:44:57 EDT, bsvitavs@bu.edu writes:
<<You misunderstand. If Shape Shift is used to duplicate a particular
individual, it automatically requires a Disguise Roll. This is not to say
that a character with Disguise needs Shape Shift to create such a guise.
To quote from the rules for Disguise (BBB, p. 25): "The character can,
with a successful roll, alter his appearance to make himself
unrecognizable; he can also disguise himself to look like a specific
person.">>
I guess I'm guilt of one thing...designing a PC for a game I would run.
Personally, as the GM, I would feel more comfortable with the character if
the "powers" were broken up a bit. Except for the Instant Change, each of
the powers builds upon the other.
Granted, the Shapeshift power might not be needed, for the effect, but I feel
it's warranted.
As far as I'm concerned, just being a generic background character is worth
the 9 points for the Disguise roll. Targeting one particular person to
impersonate is worth the 10 odds points for Shapechange plus the Disguise
roll. Also, as I mentioned in my previous message, impersonating one
particular person *should* cost END if only for the Mental strain.
<< I wasn't quite sure what that instant change was. From this description,
I'd be more inclined to do this as a Shadowing skill, or perhaps a
variation on Stealth.>>
Possible, yes. This was one of the harder bits to work in. You see it in
almost every action movie, of course. I actually expected to take the most
flack on this idea.
<<See above - this looks like a pure Disguise roll to me. As for materials,
the Disguise skill clearly states that "Disguises can be
spur-of-the-moment things, like putting on a fake moustache, or can
require hours of preparation... Makeup and proper props add +1 to +3 to
the roll." >>
See my above. :)
As a side note, maybe a SFX on the Shapechange should be "still looks like
himself even with disguise."
<< By the way, despite these quibbles, I appreciate your write-up. I didn't
see the movie, but I do know the character from the TV series and books.
Overall, I like your interpretation.>>
Don't bother seeing the movie. It wasn't that good. Val Kilmer was the only
good portion (in fact, the role seemed tailor made for him, with the wildly
different characters he's played in other movies).
The main goal of the write up was to make a character on the level of a James
Bond or Mission Impossible on the fewest amounts of points possible. I
trimmed down as far as I could... I think the skills plus the skill bonuses
makes the character way too powerful for the points used.
Jason
From: Legionair@aol.com
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 22:04:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: In defense of the Saint
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In a message dated 97-09-29 14:16:09 EDT, tbarrie@ibm.net writes:
<<Trading? How is Trading at all relevant to this?>>
It might not have been used as such in the movie, but this very cilched move
usually comes after the character disappears into the crowd... Then the bad
guys grab a nameless character who's wearing the main character's clothes...
While the main character slips off. Usually the main character makes off in
the other person's coat or such as well.
Like I said, this isn't quite what happened in the movie, but you always see
it happening in action movies.
Then again, a Charges (1) disad might be appropriate as well. The bad guys
only fall for this move once. :)
Jason
From: Strmbrngr2@aol.com
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 23:47:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: character sheets
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does any one have character sheets that i can down load and print out?
this would be so very helpful.
thanks!
strmbrng2
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 06:03:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: character sheets
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On Mon, 29 Sep 1997 Strmbrngr2@aol.com wrote:
> does any one have character sheets that i can down load and print out?
> this would be so very helpful.
Uhh... what sort of character sheets?
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: In defense of Shape Shift (was: CHAR: The Saint)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 11:19:40 -0400 (EDT)
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> > I'd say, basically, no chance of being found out. No one is going
> >to sense out the disguise with a lucky PER roll, which the skill can
> >allow.
> >
> Unfortunately, so does Shapeshift. In order to imitate particular people
> with Shapeshift, you need Disguise skill. If you fail your roll, the
> disguise just wasn't good enough, and if the person makes their PER roll,
> then the disguise wasn't good enough. Shapeshift doesn't change this.
>
> Filksinger
>
I usually agree with you, Filk, but I've got to argue with you now. If Shape
Shift is as suceptable to being found out as disguise, then why on Earth is
it worth 30pts (20pts + 0 END (+1/2)). The description for Shape Shift says
that a successful disguise roll lets the shape shifter become an "instant
duplicate" of someone specific. To my mind, duplicate means exactly the same
appearance.
But let's assume your inerpretation is correct for a moment. Miss Trick of
the Sisterhood of Evil Metahumans can instantly take on the appearance of
any human of her approximate size. She looks exactly the same, so much so
that no one can tell the difference.
Shape Shift - humanoids 20pts, 0 END (+1/2) 30pts
Instant Change - 10pts
Char - +24 COM 12pts, Linked to Shape Shift (-1/2) 8pts
So far so good, but she needs a high disguise skill to make sure that no one
could tell that she is the person she is impersonating. How high? Let's
assume that the highest perception roll that anyone is likely to have is
a 14-. This means that someone who looks at her could theoretically succeed
his perception roll by 11 points. Therefore, Miss Trick must have a high
enough disguise roll such that she will succeed by at least 11 points.
An 18 + 11 = 29- roll. This will cost her 3 + (18 * 2) = 39pts!
Skill: Disguise - 11- based, +18 levels 39pts, 29- Roll
In other words, using your interpretation, Miss Trick must spend more points
on her disguise skill than she does on her Shape Shift power. She must also
have the disguise skill at a superhuman level before she can fully use her
power. She's already spent 87pts on her powers/skills, and she hasn't even
bought her mimicry and acting skills yet!
Don't you think this is a wee bit ridiculous?
-Eric
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 10:43:00 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: In defense of Shape Shift (was: CHAR: The Saint)
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At 11:19 AM 9/30/97 -0400, Eric Burns wrote:
>> > I'd say, basically, no chance of being found out. No one is going
>> >to sense out the disguise with a lucky PER roll, which the skill can
>> >allow.
>> >
>> Unfortunately, so does Shapeshift. In order to imitate particular people
>> with Shapeshift, you need Disguise skill. If you fail your roll, the
>> disguise just wasn't good enough, and if the person makes their PER roll,
>> then the disguise wasn't good enough. Shapeshift doesn't change this.
>>
>> Filksinger
>>
>
>I usually agree with you, Filk, but I've got to argue with you now. If Shape
>Shift is as suceptable to being found out as disguise, then why on Earth is
>it worth 30pts (20pts + 0 END (+1/2)). The description for Shape Shift says
>that a successful disguise roll lets the shape shifter become an "instant
>duplicate" of someone specific. To my mind, duplicate means exactly the same
>appearance.
My take on it is: if the disguise (visually) is so good that it would
require a different actor to play the disguised character in a movie or TV
show than the one who usually does the job, then use Shape Shift. Rollin
Hand and Paris on "Mission: Impossible" would have this, as would the Human
Target.
The mechanical benefit is that observers get -Active Points to their PER
Rolls to penetrate the Disguise. (Yes, that's a house rule; wanna adopt
it?)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Vehicles and bases
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 13:27:37 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: hero-l@omg.org
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>
> At 10:55 PM 9/27/97 -0700, Robert A. West wrote:
> >Bob Greenwade wrote:
> >> >
> >> >Will someone please remind me what happens (or at least what they do) when
> >> >a base or vehicle gets destroyed? It is a case of independance and the
> >> >points are just lost... or will the base/vehicle "rise again" . . .?
> >>
> >> Treat it like a Follower. The vehicle/base is gone, but can be replaced
> >> with a new one in a reasonable period of time using the same points.
> >
> >Well, I differ on the treatment of followers. Replacing a "generic"
> >follower, such as a bodyguard, requires spending 5 pts under the
> >"doubling" rule, unless the cost was less. So, after spending 5 pts
> >
> >Replacing a unique follower can't be done this way, and the points won't
> >come back, except possibly as the result of a long story arc, such as
> >might be used to replace an Unbreakable Focus that had been destroyed or
> >to track down and regain an Independent item.
>
Hmmm.... In a game I ran, I'd let the follower get replaced given
an appropriate storyline. I don't think you should lose it permanently
unless it has independant on it. Otherwise we'd have to create
"Not-Independant" for those special effects where it would come back.
I try not to make house rules unless absolutly nessessary.
In a case like this, where it's unclear, I'd rule in favor of whatever
allows for the best variety. In thics case allowing it to be replaced by
the storyline.
One PC I'm playing in a PBeM right now has over 2000 followers, his
own personal army of pigeons. The special effect is that they come and go,
but at any moment, around 2000 of the cities pigeons are under his control.
But the occasional bird of another species.
It's a clear case of a special effect fitting replaceable followers.
In a way, even Robin (Batman & Robin) fits the replaceable bill. Batman
gets a new Robin every so often, whenever DC Comics needs to boost sales or whatever.
Then there's the X-Men Mansion, look at how many times that thing got
wasted and rebuilt... So that sinks it for bases IMHO
Comments: Authenticated sender is <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 00:22:22 +0000
Subject: Re: In defense of Shape Shift (was: CHAR: The Saint)
Reply-to: ghoyle1@airmail.net
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> what if you buy shapeshift with a mentalist special effect?
> I.E. 'mind controlling' everybody into thinking you are someone else?
> While it has the inherent advantages/limitations of all SFX,
> it's a perfectly valid possibility. . .
Wouldn't that more likely be Mind Control to make everybody think
you'rer what you want to be?
----------------------------------
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com)
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf
and the PANGAEA Project!
Comments: Authenticated sender is <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 00:27:15 +0000
Subject: Mind Control/Telepathy via TV?
Reply-to: ghoyle1@airmail.net
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Say that the Pusillanimous Programmer wants to turn everybody
watching a particular TV show to become his mindless, slack-jawed
zombies. How would this be done? Mind Control, with enough Area
Effect to affect the entire viewing area, Only Vs. Those Watching TV
Program?
The same effect might be worked with Telepathy, too.
Guy
----------------------------------
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com)
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf
and the PANGAEA Project!
From: PopTholian@aol.com
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 23:39:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: In defense of Shape Shift (was: CHAR: The Saint)
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In a message dated 9/30/97 10:35:26 AM, burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu wrote:
>But let's assume your inerpretation is correct for a moment. Miss Trick of
>the Sisterhood of Evil Metahumans can instantly take on the appearance of
>any human of her approximate size. She looks exactly the same, so much so
>that no one can tell the difference.
Here's our house rule:
Disguise, Make-Up, and Mimicry can make you LOOK & SOUND exactly
like someone else.
Shapeshift can make you look and feel exactly like someone else.
Nothing allows you to _exactly_ duplicate someone else.
How do you tell the difference? How do you penetrate the perfect
disguise? The clothes, the looks, the voice, the feel, the scent,
the foci, and the fingerprints are all the same.
Retina Scans only.
In our campaign no clone, metamorph, magician, or transformer
can perfectly fake the retina patterns of another.
(of course the egoist can cause the user of the retinal-corder to
beleive he saw a correct reading, but that's another power...)
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 14:31:19 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
Subject: Re: Desolidification p.s.
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At 06:32 AM 9/29/97 -0700, you wrote:
>At 08:02 AM 9/29/97 -0400, Dazzle489@aol.com wrote:
>>
>><< Would a character with Desolidification be able to phase through a
>> character with the Hardened advantage? If not, wouldn't the Hardened fellow
>> be able to damage him normally?
>> >>
>>
>>My reply is .... is a character allowed to have hardened....
>>
>>otherwise I would not think a desolid could pass thro a character with
>>hardened armor...
>
> Why not?
i think because because the whole lad ain't hardened- only his armour is. This is dependant on special effect, and i'd say if you hit anything hardened you stop moving,
OR if you agree with that guy up there to stop people you chould buy a clearly 'whole body' or sealed effect- i.e. a force field, force wall, or maybe damage reduction?
i'd say any hardened defence stops you, but what about borderline effects dealing with the desolids vunerability- like a desolid; vunerable to magic, running in to a knight wearing enchanted plate mail?
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 14:33:46 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
Subject: Re: In defense of Shape Shift (was: CHAR: The Saint)
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At 11:39 PM 9/30/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Here's our house rule:
>Disguise, Make-Up, and Mimicry can make you LOOK & SOUND exactly
>like someone else.
>Shapeshift can make you look and feel exactly like someone else.
>
>Nothing allows you to _exactly_ duplicate someone else.
>
>How do you tell the difference? How do you penetrate the perfect
>disguise? The clothes, the looks, the voice, the feel, the scent,
>the foci, and the fingerprints are all the same.
>Retina Scans only.
>In our campaign no clone, metamorph, magician, or transformer
>can perfectly fake the retina patterns of another.
>
>(of course the egoist can cause the user of the retinal-corder to
>beleive he saw a correct reading, but that's another power...)
>
what if you buy shapeshift with a mentalist special effect?
I.E. 'mind controlling' everybody into thinking you are someone else?
While it has the inherent advantages/limitations of all SFX,
it's a perfectly valid possibility. . .
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 02:53:42 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: In defense of Shape Shift (was: CHAR: The Saint)
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Eric Burns wrote:
> I usually agree with you, Filk, but I've got to argue with you now. If Shape
> Shift is as suceptable to being found out as disguise, then why on Earth is
> it worth 30pts (20pts + 0 END (+1/2)). The description for Shape Shift says
> that a successful disguise roll lets the shape shifter become an "instant
> duplicate" of someone specific. To my mind, duplicate means exactly the same
> appearance.
>
> But let's assume your inerpretation is correct for a moment. Miss Trick of
> the Sisterhood of Evil Metahumans can instantly take on the appearance of
> any human of her approximate size. She looks exactly the same, so much so
> that no one can tell the difference.
>
> Shape Shift - humanoids 20pts, 0 END (+1/2) 30pts
>
> Instant Change - 10pts
>
> Char - +24 COM 12pts, Linked to Shape Shift (-1/2) 8pts
>
> So far so good, but she needs a high disguise skill to make sure that no one
> could tell that she is the person she is impersonating. How high? Let's
> assume that the highest perception roll that anyone is likely to have is
> a 14-. This means that someone who looks at her could theoretically succeed
> his perception roll by 11 points. Therefore, Miss Trick must have a high
> enough disguise roll such that she will succeed by at least 11 points.
> An 18 + 11 = 29- roll. This will cost her 3 + (18 * 2) = 39pts!
>
> Skill: Disguise - 11- based, +18 levels 39pts, 29- Roll
>
> In other words, using your interpretation, Miss Trick must spend more points
> on her disguise skill than she does on her Shape Shift power. She must also
> have the disguise skill at a superhuman level before she can fully use her
> power. She's already spent 87pts on her powers/skills, and she hasn't even
> bought her mimicry and acting skills yet!
>
> Don't you think this is a wee bit ridiculous?
One (or two) small oversights in your diatribe...
Shape Shift is intended to do Much More than merely duplicating
people; my interpretation of the writeup is that disguise is simply
mentioned as a side benefit of ShapeShift - the application of
ShapeShift to 'instant duplicates' refers ONLY to the INSTANT aspect. A
person with disguise can become a 'duplicate' of another with the
appropriate preparation and props. A person with disguise AND
ShapeShift doesn't need the props and costumes. That's IT! That's all
ShapeShift does in terms of disguise! If the Shapeshifter does not have
the appropriate talent and knowledge, the attempt at disguise will still
be flawed, and able to be seen through.
On the other hand, Disguise alone - no matter how high the roll -
will never let someone make a believable car or trout....
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 03:04:46 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: In defense of Shape Shift (was: CHAR: The Saint)
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Guy Hoyle wrote:
>
> > what if you buy shapeshift with a mentalist special effect?
> > I.E. 'mind controlling' everybody into thinking you are someone else?
> > While it has the inherent advantages/limitations of all SFX,
> > it's a perfectly valid possibility. . .
>
> Wouldn't that more likely be Mind Control to make everybody think
> you'rer what you want to be?
Or maybe... (drum roll) Mental Illusions??
-Capt. Spith
> ----------------------------------
> Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com)
> http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/
> Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf
> and the PANGAEA Project!
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 05:58:23 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: In defense of Shape Shift (was: CHAR: The Saint)
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At 12:22 AM 10/1/97 +0000, Guy Hoyle wrote:
>
>> what if you buy shapeshift with a mentalist special effect?
>> I.E. 'mind controlling' everybody into thinking you are someone else?
>> While it has the inherent advantages/limitations of all SFX,
>> it's a perfectly valid possibility. . .
>
>Wouldn't that more likely be Mind Control to make everybody think
>you'rer what you want to be?
Though it's a weird construct, I'd probably call that Shapeshift BOECV.
Or, more likely, Shapeshift with the Psionic Limitation from TUM.
---
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Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 06:09:48 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Mind Control/Telepathy via TV?
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At 12:27 AM 10/1/97 +0000, Guy Hoyle wrote:
>Say that the Pusillanimous Programmer wants to turn everybody
>watching a particular TV show to become his mindless, slack-jawed
>zombies. How would this be done? Mind Control, with enough Area
>Effect to affect the entire viewing area, Only Vs. Those Watching TV
>Program?
>
>The same effect might be worked with Telepathy, too.
I've devised a special Advantage for exactly this type of thing, which I
call Based On Sense. In the interest of brevity, I'll assume the mechanics
are self-explanatory from your question and my descriptions below:
Targets must make PER Roll at No Range: +1/4
Targets must make PER Roll close enough to not take a Range Modifier: +1/2
Targets must make PER Roll regardless of Range: +1
Must merely be able to sense the SFX (no Roll needed): 2x
Attack Power: 2x
In your case, the targets would probably (just a guess here) be affected
if they can both see and hear the television (let's give the Advantage a
-1/4 penalty on the fly for that, before multipliers), and be close enough
that they wouldn't have to take a Range Modifier (most folks watch TV from
less than 25' away anyway, and large screen TVs can give Range Modifier
bonuses). So the Pusillanimous Programmer, by this system, would take an
Advantage of +1.
Does that seem about right to you?
---
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Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 06:21:06 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Followers and Replacements
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At 01:27 PM 9/30/97 -0700, Brian Wong wrote:
> One PC I'm playing in a PBeM right now has over 2000 followers, his
>own personal army of pigeons. The special effect is that they come and go,
>but at any moment, around 2000 of the cities pigeons are under his control.
> But the occasional bird of another species.
Remind me never to tick this guy off.
> It's a clear case of a special effect fitting replaceable followers.
>In a way, even Robin (Batman & Robin) fits the replaceable bill. Batman
>gets a new Robin every so often, whenever DC Comics needs to boost sales
or whatever.
Let's see. The Robin in the comics is still Tim Drake, isn't it?
(Though if memory serves he's nothing like the Tim Drake in the animated
series on the WB.)
> Then there's the X-Men Mansion, look at how many times that thing got
>wasted and rebuilt... So that sinks it for bases IMHO
Kinda like the Tokyo Radio Tower, right?
---
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Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 06:21:17 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Vehicles and bases
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> At 10:55 PM 9/27/97 -0700, Robert A. West wrote:
> >
> >Well, I differ on the treatment of followers. Replacing a "generic"
> >follower, such as a bodyguard, requires spending 5 pts under the
> >"doubling" rule, unless the cost was less . . .
> >
> >Replacing a unique follower can't be done this way, and the points won't
> >come back, except possibly as the result of a long story arc . . .
>
> Uh... this is a House Rule, right? I sure don't see this in the book.
Uh...sort of. The book is annoyingly silent on what happens to the
points for dead followers. The three logical positions are:
1) A dead follower is like a dead duplicate: the points are lost.
2) A dead follower is like a broken focus: replacable as soon as the
GM rules that it is reasonable.
3) A dead follower is like a destroyed unbreakable focus: to be replaced
only with difficulty, such as by a quest.
Since the book is silent, a GM can reasonably contend that any of the
above is the intended "book" rule. By house rule, I make the decision
based on the "special effect".
> Not that I find it altogether unreasonable, understand....
Well, I am glad of that.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
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Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 09:22:53 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Hero Games Home Page
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I just noticed that Bruce Harlick is back from vacation, and has updated
the Hero Games Home Page.
The reason I bring this up here is that the page states that he and
Steve Peterson have their AOL accounts back now.
(There's also a clever little article by Steve Perrin wherein the
Champions Universe Seeker and the New Millenium Seeker discuss the
differences between themselves and their respective universes.)
---
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Mind Control/Telepathy via TV?
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "GH" == Guy Hoyle <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> writes:
GH> Say that the Pusillanimous Programmer wants to turn everybody watching
GH> a particular TV show to become his mindless, slack-jawed zombies.
If the PP is an NPC, it is a plot device. Trying to come up with the
powers and advantages that will make this work is more trouble than it is
worth, and probably heinously expensive.
If he is an NPC, why in the name of anything you hold dear would you let a
PC have such a thing?
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should
\ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 14:27:29 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Mind Control/Telepathy via TV?
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At 03:51 PM 10/1/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "GH" == Guy Hoyle <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> writes:
>
>GH> Say that the Pusillanimous Programmer wants to turn everybody watching
>GH> a particular TV show to become his mindless, slack-jawed zombies.
>
>If the PP is an NPC, it is a plot device. Trying to come up with the
>powers and advantages that will make this work is more trouble than it is
>worth, and probably heinously expensive.
Though it can also be handy if a PC has a Dispel.
>If he is an NPC, why in the name of anything you hold dear would you let a
>PC have such a thing?
Maybe the campaign is a villain campaign?
---
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From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 12:17:22 +1000
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Subject: Re: Mind Control/Telepathy via TV?
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At 12:27 AM 10/1/97 +0000, you wrote:
>Say that the Pusillanimous Programmer wants to turn everybody
>watching a particular TV show to become his mindless, slack-jawed
>zombies. How would this be done? Mind Control, with enough Area
>Effect to affect the entire viewing area, Only Vs. Those Watching TV
>Program?
>
>The same effect might be worked with Telepathy, too.
>
nake it a 0 end sticky- "here, harry, come watch tv with us. . . "
>Guy
>----------------------------------
>Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com)
>http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/
>Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf
>and the PANGAEA Project!
>
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 12:21:52 +1000
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Subject: Re: Desolidification p.s.
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At 05:56 AM 10/1/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>>>otherwise I would not think a desolid could pass thro a character with
>>>>hardened armor...
>>>
>>> Why not?
>>
>>i think because because the whole lad ain't hardened- only his armour is.
>This is dependant on special effect, and i'd say if you hit anything
>hardened you stop moving,
>>OR if you agree with that guy up there to stop people you chould buy a
>clearly 'whole body' or sealed effect- i.e. a force field, force wall, or
>maybe damage reduction?
>>i'd say any hardened defence stops you, but what about borderline effects
>dealing with the desolids vunerability- like a desolid; vunerable to magic,
>running in to a knight wearing enchanted plate mail?
>
> Most of this depends on special effects and definition of a given
>Desolidification and what its weakness is. Yes, if Desolid is vulnerable
>to magic, then the character couldn't pass through another character if the
>latter is wearing enchanted armor (or even enchanted long johns).
> But I still don't see how anything Hardened should affect anything
>Desolid unless Hardened is in the list of Desolid weaknesses.
doh- yeah, yer right, i guess it'd have to be 'effects desoilidified', and bying such with a defence would *defeinitley* allow the character to block a desolid lad- after all, what else would it be good for except the occasional nnd?
>---
>Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
>Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
>
>
>
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 12:24:49 +1000
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At 03:51 PM 10/1/97 -0400, you wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "GH" == Guy Hoyle <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> writes:
>
>GH> Say that the Pusillanimous Programmer wants to turn everybody watching
>GH> a particular TV show to become his mindless, slack-jawed zombies.
>
>If the PP is an NPC, it is a plot device. Trying to come up with the
>powers and advantages that will make this work is more trouble than it is
>worth, and probably heinously expensive.
>
not really- what if the pc want's to supress the effect? making npc powers is valid,
alls you have to do is aspply unfair modifiers (like a oend continuous nnd ka, or my o end sticky mind control)
>If he is an NPC, why in the name of anything you hold dear would you let a
>PC have such a thing?
>
open-minded gm?
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>
>--
>Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
>PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should
> \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
>
>
X-Sender: wbandsis@mail.westco.net
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 23:02:18 -0400
From: Charles Badger <wbandsis@westco.net>
Subject: Hero: Conversions
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I was wondering if besides the conversion in the Fantasy hero, adventurer's
cluba and Guns, Guns Guns; were there any other published conversion tables
for different systems to fuzion/hero/interlock?
I heard there was a new game put out recently that had as a feature
conversions which included hero system but hadn't got it or recall what it
was. Anyone know?
-----
Charles T. Badger
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Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 23:02:20 -0400
From: Charles Badger <wbandsis@westco.net>
Subject: hero: Bright Futures
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So has anyone heard much of the new Bright Futures that hero is going to be
publishing?
Maybe the authors could give us a blurb if they are members of the list?
Thanks.
-----
Charles T. Badger
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From: Michael.Adams@october.com (Michael Adams)
Date: 02 Oct 97 05:55:02 GMT
Subject: Comic and HERO conversion
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Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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Anyoen doing any "official" or "unofficial" convertions of known current and
past Marvel/DC, Dark Horse and other comic hero mags?
To include non-supers.
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 15:59:17 +1000
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Subject: Re: Mind Control/Telepathy via TV?
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At 02:27 PM 10/1/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>If the PP is an NPC, it is a plot device. Trying to come up with the
>>powers and advantages that will make this work is more trouble than it is
>>worth, and probably heinously expensive.
>
> Though it can also be handy if a PC has a Dispel.
>
>>If he is an NPC, why in the name of anything you hold dear would you let a
>>PC have such a thing?
>
> Maybe the campaign is a villain campaign?
why not a 'hero'???
"yes, team, i admit i have been mind-controlling the populace- but it's for their own good, dammit!!! and i get much quicker service at the drive-through at Mcdonalds. . . "
>
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 03:32:23 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: GMing Question #1
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I've got a query to all who have GMed out there about a player
thing....
Has anyone had a player accuse them of having a 'moral agenda' in
their style?
(Here comes the obligatory anecdote/example...)
I was running a game in which The PC's encountered aliens who were
doing medical experiments on humans. When accused of being immoral (or
something akin to that) by one of the PCs, the alien spokes person
brought up humans' experiments on monkeys, bunnies, dogs, etc. as
analogous.
Well, one of my players at a later date accused me of trying to put
forth my own views on animal experimentation. He also mentioned some
other event in the campaign as another example of 'working my own
agenda' but I can't recall what it was at this time.
As I see it, a GM has to make some assumptions about what the players
will consider somewhere between 'evil' and 'unacceptable', and this
would generally require some sort of assumed 'moral' stance... Has
anyone else had this happen?
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 08:15:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom Stevens <nez@thepoint.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
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On Thu, 2 Oct 1997, Captain Spith wrote:
> I've got a query to all who have GMed out there about a player
> thing....
>
> Has anyone had a player accuse them of having a 'moral agenda' in
> their style?
> (Here comes the obligatory anecdote/example...)
Accused me? nope. Complimented me for, sure.
>
> I was running a game in which The PC's encountered aliens who were
> doing medical experiments on humans. When accused of being immoral (or
> something akin to that) by one of the PCs, the alien spokes person
> brought up humans' experiments on monkeys, bunnies, dogs, etc. as
> analogous.
Good for you. Challenging players to alternative moral ideas is a good thing.
I once had aliens that thought humanity was immoral because they let sick
people live. An alien culture can have all kinds of non standard ideas
about morality. Perhaps a culture that believes stopping a war before one
side has completely annihlited the other is unfair assimilation. POW's
are evil, ending life cycles is ok. Hey I like that idea.
> Well, one of my players at a later date accused me of trying to put
> forth my own views on animal experimentation. He also mentioned some
> other event in the campaign as another example of 'working my own
> agenda' but I can't recall what it was at this time.
It's called writing. Show me a story, book, show that doesn't have at least
some questions of morality of agenda, and i'll show you a fairly boring
story.
Gilligan's island occasionally had morality plays. It's part of telling
stories.The unique thing role playing adds is allowing the characters to
really come form different moral points of view, and allowing the players
to really delve into what it means. This is excellent character development.
>
> As I see it, a GM has to make some assumptions about what the players
> will consider somewhere between 'evil' and 'unacceptable', and this
> would generally require some sort of assumed 'moral' stance... Has
> anyone else had this happen?
>
I've been complimented on making people think. not just deathtrap of the
week think, but really think.
1> A character needs so much electricity to live, that just being in a
large city will cause huge blackouts. People in hospitals are dying, car
batteries are drained. You have code vs killing. What do you do?
2> A villian has cuased countless riots. His overall goal is to destroy
the kkk form the inside. (goal found by telepathy) do you oust him, do
you arrest him?
3> A murder is committed in front of you. The murderer may be the only
person who can stop an explosion that will kill thousands, but eliciting
there help may allow them to get away scott free. Do you go on without
their help? Do you get their help anyway?
4> an alien race is dying, but they are difficult about trusting you, or
accepting your help. Should you help them, and save an entire race from
extinction, defying THEIR moral codes about interference, or do you let
them die.
Occasionally, my group surprises me too. When faced with a race in severe
danger of genocide due to a 1000 year war, the group chose to stay
nuetral, to prevent bringing the earth into an intergalactic war. A wise
choice, but a moral one? who knows.
My response to the aliens would have varied with what character I was
playing. Assuming I wasn't playing a severe animal rights activist (Which
i've played), i would have pointed out lives saved by animal testing,
both human and animal alike. I'd also point out that there are life forms
on our planet that are simply killed by existing. That it is so natural,
it exceeds a moral question. (antibodies etc)
If playing an activist, I'd point out humanity was evolving, and that
some of us were standing up against these things. To destroy humanity at
the throes of it's evolution would certianly be an evil act, and a waste.
That's role playing for me. I love scenarios like this, and am generally
bored without them.
> -Capt. Spith
>
> --
> Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
> long
> And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
> Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
> All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
> -'Wierd Al'
>
>
Nez@thepoint.com
First master of the backwards philosophy.
Hail Eris and Praise the Huddab!
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 06:29:10 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
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At 03:32 AM 10/2/97 -0700, Captain Spith wrote:
>I've got a query to all who have GMed out there about a player
>thing....
>
> Has anyone had a player accuse them of having a 'moral agenda' in
>their style?
>(Here comes the obligatory anecdote/example...)
>
> I was running a game in which The PC's encountered aliens who were
>doing medical experiments on humans. When accused of being immoral (or
>something akin to that) by one of the PCs, the alien spokes person
>brought up humans' experiments on monkeys, bunnies, dogs, etc. as
>analogous.
> Well, one of my players at a later date accused me of trying to put
>forth my own views on animal experimentation. He also mentioned some
>other event in the campaign as another example of 'working my own
>agenda' but I can't recall what it was at this time.
>
> As I see it, a GM has to make some assumptions about what the players
>will consider somewhere between 'evil' and 'unacceptable', and this
>would generally require some sort of assumed 'moral' stance... Has
>anyone else had this happen?
I have never had anything like this happen. Of course, I do have my own
moral and ethical views, and it's my stance that it's virtually impossible
to do anything in the way of storytelling at any depth -- whether you're
trying to GM a game, write a TV episode, report the news, or virtually
anything else -- without reflecting your own viewpoint in some way. I try
to make sure that my players understand my essential perspective, why it's
going to show through (the just-stated observation), and that I'll try to
not be too "in your face" about it.
Still, most of my adventures involve thefts of powerful artifacts, plots
to take over the world, and that sort of thing.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: Re: In defense of Shape Shift (was: CHAR: The Saint)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:31:41 -0400 (EDT)
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> My take on it is: if the disguise (visually) is so good that it would
> require a different actor to play the disguised character in a movie or TV
> show than the one who usually does the job, then use Shape Shift. Rollin
> Hand and Paris on "Mission: Impossible" would have this, as would the Human
> Target.
> The mechanical benefit is that observers get -Active Points to their PER
> Rolls to penetrate the Disguise. (Yes, that's a house rule; wanna adopt
> it?)
Yes, I think that some sort of penalty to the perception roll might be
in order, or perhaps a bonus to the disguise roll.
I mean, a shapeshifter would have "excellent materials" for disguise,
right? And, if you're a shape shifter, taking someone else's form would
be "easy" if not "routine". That would work out to between a +6
to +8 bonus to the disguise roll. Sounds reasonable to me...
-Eric
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: GMing Question #1
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:37:13 -0400 (EDT)
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> I was running a game in which The PC's encountered aliens who were
> doing medical experiments on humans. When accused of being immoral (or
> something akin to that) by one of the PCs, the alien spokes person
> brought up humans' experiments on monkeys, bunnies, dogs, etc. as
> analogous.
> Well, one of my players at a later date accused me of trying to put
> forth my own views on animal experimentation. He also mentioned some
> other event in the campaign as another example of 'working my own
> agenda' but I can't recall what it was at this time.
>
I think you should have kidnapped this player's dog. I wonder what
Mr. "Animal Experiments are Happy and Good so Stop Criticizing them,
Captain Spith, or You'll Make Me Cry" would have said to that!
-Eric
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 09:56:53 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Hero Games Home Page
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> I just noticed that Bruce Harlick is back from vacation, and has updated
> the Hero Games Home Page.
> The reason I bring this up here is that the page states that he and
> Steve Peterson have their AOL accounts back now.
> (There's also a clever little article by Steve Perrin wherein the
> Champions Universe Seeker and the New Millenium Seeker discuss the
> differences between themselves and their respective universes.)
I just have to mention (I've let it slide up to now), that I've
been quite pleased with Hero Games' recent rededication to the Hero 4th
line. They realize the need to hold on to the gamers they've got, though
it took awhile. As I was told repeatedly by Hero Games folk at GenCon,
why would a player of 4th ed really want to get into Fuzion? We've got a
very good gaming system. They want the newbies to get Fuzion.
Proof of this dedication is the rerelease of older products in
HeroPlus Acrobat format. I've finally got the UMA, as well as Eye for an
Eye. They are working with Allston on a series of books, planned to be at
least 6 for the time being, and probably all being realeased pretty close
together. Finally, they have the magazene on the web page. We are given
Hero 4th writeups of the Fuzion characters, making the Fuzion books much
more valuable to us GMs who don't want to spend hours of conversion time,
no matter what the ease asserted by Hero.
Anyway, I think we're through the Hero Dark age and are in much
better shape than we were, say, at that first post-ICE GenCon. (Was it
only '96?, sheesh)
-Tim Gilberg
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:43:14 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: GMing Question #1
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Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> writes:
>
> I was running a game in which The PC's encountered aliens who were
> doing medical experiments on humans. When accused of being immoral (or
> something akin to that) by one of the PCs, the alien spokes person
> brought up humans' experiments on monkeys, bunnies, dogs, etc. as
> analogous.
> Well, one of my players at a later date accused me of trying to put
> forth my own views on animal experimentation. He also mentioned some
> other event in the campaign as another example of 'working my own
> agenda' but I can't recall what it was at this time.
>
Note that YOUR position doesn't have to be the same as the NPC's position.
Presumably you could have a psychotic serial killer that when confronted by
the PC's has some kind of rational/logical explanation for his actions.
That doesn't mean that YOU, the GM, feels the same way.
Nez wrote some comments about moral dilemmas being interesting role-playing
opportunities. That's one perspective that I partially agree with.
However, they could also be viewed as 'no-win' situations. I suggest using
these sparingly if you're not sure how your players and/or their characters
would react.
Curt Hicks
From: "Triaxm'l" <arthurh@utah-inter.net>
Subject: Time Travel and Time scales (fuzion)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:30:20 -0600
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Has anyone figured out a decent time travel power, without using EDM (which
works, but isn't what I'm quite looking for)?
I've thought about a 5 point power that allows travel into the past or
future, one round. Spend 1 point to increase the shift up the time chart.
It's roughly (can't remember the chart) 12 pts (or 60 active under Champs
4th) to travel about 1 day.
Which brings up the next part of my question, the time chart only goes up
to a day.
I'm thinking it should be expanded to;
Insert rest of chart up above
Week
Month
Year
Decade
Century
Millinieum
Anytime or permanant
So to time travel a year is +3 more points or 15 (75 Active for Champs 4th)
Does this look like it will work? Or do you think it's too cheap?
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1 (morality)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 09:44:14 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: hero-l@omg.org
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>
> I've got a query to all who have GMed out there about a player
> thing....
>
> Has anyone had a player accuse them of having a 'moral agenda' in
> their style?
> (Here comes the obligatory anecdote/example...)
>
> I was running a game in which The PC's encountered aliens who were
> doing medical experiments on humans. When accused of being immoral (or
> something akin to that) by one of the PCs, the alien spokes person
> brought up humans' experiments on monkeys, bunnies, dogs, etc. as
> analogous.
> Well, one of my players at a later date accused me of trying to put
> forth my own views on animal experimentation. He also mentioned some
> other event in the campaign as another example of 'working my own
> agenda' but I can't recall what it was at this time.
>
Where you shoving your views down their throats? :)
It depends.
1. Did you present the alien's view as being morally superior
to the PC's? Or just diferening?
2. Did you allow for the PC's view to have it's own equal
legitimacy.
I love playing moral drama's out. I'll put NPC heroes and villians
with vastly diferent moral systems into play. I never try to let one
side seem defacto right. Though I will have the societies of the game
pick how they stand on issues.
I as a GM will throw in NPC Heroes who'se morality conflicts
with a PC's, just to see how the PC handles it. Or a villian who'se
morality agrees with the PC...
But I try to avoid making it seem as if my own morals are being
tossed out. And I have NPC's with vastly diferent moral systems from
each other that I make full use of.
> As I see it, a GM has to make some assumptions about what the players
> will consider somewhere between 'evil' and 'unacceptable', and this
> would generally require some sort of assumed 'moral' stance... Has
> anyone else had this happen?
>
I make no assumptions about the morals of the PC's. But I do make
assumptions about the morals of the society. Which rarely match with my
own, real life morals.
I do expect my player's character's to be Heroes in some sense
of the word, this means I expect them to be able to justify what they
do; and to take actions which they feel are for the greater good.
Rook
Also known as Arcady on #herochat and #Fuzionchat in DALnet IRC
herochat is a channel for discusion of the Hero system
Fuzionchat is for dicussion of Fuzion (C:NM, BGC, et all)
Rook has a growing champions site at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 09:54:13 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: hero-l@omg.org
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> > Has anyone had a player accuse them of having a 'moral agenda' in
> > their style?
> > (Here comes the obligatory anecdote/example...)
> Accused me? nope. Complimented me for, sure.
> people live. An alien culture can have all kinds of non standard ideas
> about morality. Perhaps a culture that believes stopping a war before one
> side has completely annihlited the other is unfair assimilation. POW's
> are evil, ending life cycles is ok. Hey I like that idea.
>
>
It doesn't even take aliens to do this. Look at the diference
between Eastern and Western morality. Having spent 4 years in Asia, and
living in a city with a 25% asian population (San Francisco); this is a
drama I love to play out.
Take a look at this PC/NPC of mine:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/KITTY.htm
She's a chinese Supercop, in a literal sense. :)
Her morality is vastly diferent than 90% of all westerners, but she's
still a hero. Throwing her into a game throws most players for a loop.
Imagine having an Iranian Hero and an Isreali Hero get stuck in
a situation where they have to work together? Maybe against an
eco-terrorist plot to nuke the middle east in order to destroy the use
of oil as a fuel source... It's a plot with holes in it... but most
terrorists have holes in their thinking anyway. :)
Rook
Also known as Arcady on #herochat and #Fuzionchat in DALnet IRC
herochat is a channel for discusion of the Hero system
Fuzionchat is for dicussion of Fuzion (C:NM, BGC, et all)
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Also, check out the new version of Villians & Vigilantes at
http://illusionmachines.com/personal/jeff/vandv.html
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Mind Control/Telepathy via TV?
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 02 Oct 1997 13:15:21 -0400
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>>>>> "j" == jonesmj <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> writes:
j> not really- what if the pc want's to supress the effect?
He would have to suppress a thousand-point power, give or take a few
hundred. I dunnow about you, but most PCs are not going to have enough
dice of Suppress to make a dent in this thing.
Since it is a plot device, you have to wing it -- either the PC is
successful, or he is not. But have him roll the dice anyway just to keep
him guessing.
[...]
>> If he is an NPC, why in the name of anything you hold dear would you let
>> a PC have such a thing?
j> open-minded gm?
Yeah, right.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Mind Control/Telepathy via TV?
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>>>>> "j" == jonesmj <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> writes:
j> why not a 'hero'???
Yup, it is really heroic to turn an entire city into one's personal,
mindless zombies.
Or is this some new definition of "heroic" I was previously unfamiliar
with?
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Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 13:17:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom Stevens <nez@thepoint.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
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On Thu, 2 Oct 1997, Curt Hicks wrote:
>
> Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> writes:
>
> >
> > I was running a game in which The PC's encountered aliens who were
> Nez wrote some comments about moral dilemmas being interesting role-playing
> opportunities. That's one perspective that I partially agree with.
> However, they could also be viewed as 'no-win' situations. I suggest using
> these sparingly if you're not sure how your players and/or their characters
> would react.
In my defense, the players often eventually find other solutions. They
look at no win situations, and do what Kirk did. They find other
solutions. But that doesn't keep them from heated debates, and honest
soul searching.
1> solution to the guy who drained electricity was to put him on an island,
give him a huge battery (created by the gadgetteer of the group) and then
donate the island to anti tech groups like the amish etc, so he'd have at
least someone to live with.
Of course, he'll be back anyway, but still.
2> They took the murderer to jail, and found a way to stop the bomber anyway.
though it was a good deal more dangerous than it would have been, and it
did land a player in the hospital for months.
(she went to negative 6 body)
3> They ignored the aliens for awhile, but eventually went back and
solved their illness, more or less without their knowledge.
So the players find win win situations, but still have to face those
moral choices (especially in the latter case when one could still rule
they were in a moral gray area, and the first one where the guy really
didn't want to live with the amish, but what choice did he have.)
We've also moved a ccolony of giant intelligent ants to mars (after
terraforming it), and other things that find solutions to unsolvable
problems.
> >
Curt Hicks >
Nez@thepoint.com
First master of the backwards philosophy.
Hail Eris and Praise the Huddab!
From: samael@clark.net (Acid Rainbow)
Subject: Re: "Night Vision"
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 17:51:22 GMT
Organization: Disorganized
Reply-To: samael@clark.net
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On Sun, 28 Sep 1997 09:58:58 -0700, "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
sent these symbols into the net:
>Robert A. West wrote:
>
>
>IMHO, the description of the power for UV Vision fits a photomultiplier
>effect better than it fits actual UV vision, since moonlight contains no
>UV and starlight very little. I have therefore ruled, with no objection
>from anyone, that the 3-pt enhanced sense described in the book is really
>Night Vision, and that UV-Vision is a different 3-pt sense, which is
>mainly useful in seeing objects invisible to normal sight.
>
>BTW, since I surcharge for "superpowers", the fact that a power can be
>obtained by "normals" is of vital importance, even to PCs.
Just for the record, I'd like to point out that the human retina is
capable of detecting UV. The reason you can't see UV colors is because the
lens in the human eye filters out UV. Back in WWII, people who'd had
successful cataract operations were employed as coast watchers, etc because
they could see UV lamps that were used for signalling in some operations.
**********************************************************************
*Lissajous patterns and windmills and don't ask about the connection.*
* Acid Rainbow: Semi-professional windmill-tilter. *
**********************************************************************
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 02 Oct 97 18:22:00 GMT
Subject: GMing Question #1
X-Ftn-To: herolist@october.com
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Path: october!opal
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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h > From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
h >
h > I've got a query to all who have GMed out there about a player
h > thing....
h >
h > Has anyone had a player accuse them of having a 'moral agenda' in
h > their style?
h > (Here comes the obligatory anecdote/example...)
I've certainly run games like that before.... but I've never been 'accused'
Most players like that sort of thing, it makes the game more interesting.
h > I was running a game in which The PC's encountered aliens who were
h > doing medical experiments on humans. When accused of being immoral
h > (or
h > something akin to that) by one of the PCs, the alien spokes person
h > brought up humans' experiments on monkeys, bunnies, dogs, etc. as
h > analogous.
h > Well, one of my players at a later date accused me of trying to put
h > forth my own views on animal experimentation. He also mentioned some
h > other event in the campaign as another example of 'working my own
h > agenda' but I can't recall what it was at this time.
You can't help injecting some of your morality into your games, it's
inevitable. Most of the time nobody notices or cares, because you and
your players share a lot of the same morals. The odd 'controversial'
issue might cause this kind of problem. But, frankly, the comparison
your alien drew has been done so often in fiction, it should hardly
come as a shock to anyone.
I have pushed a moral agenda in my games - more than once, and a lot
harder than you did here - with no real complaints.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58 * Realism Kills
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 02 Oct 97 18:40:02 GMT
Subject: Re: Desolidification and
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Path: october!opal
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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h > >That's bull. When you are desolid, you are desolid to all things
h > except the
h > >specific things that your special effects dictate that you are
h > vunerable to.
h > > As said in the rules.
Look, either way, you'll be seing Desolid characters with Life Support.
If Desolid doesn't protect against environmental changes, like volcanic
heat or poison gas, then you can always make *your* character's Desolid
work that way, by Linking apropriate Life Support to it. If Desold really
does - as you say above - make you desold to all things (barring the
manditory vulnerability), then anyone with Desolid will *need* Life
Support - since they are no longer interacting with the air, they can't
very well breath can they? For that matter, if Gravity isn't one of
the things your 'vulnerable' to, you'll be floating off into space (and
if Gravity *does* affect you, you'll fall through the ground) - better
buy flight, too. What about Light? If you're not affected by light
(and by Flash attacks), are you visible? can you see?
Champions is effects-based. The best way to look at Desolid, is as
a power that renders you immune to most basic attacks, and allows you
to pass through barriers. Peripheral effects should be bought as other
powers and (if apropriate) Linked to the Desol. If you really want some
peripheral effects, they should only be those that would clearly be
aplicable for most basic types of Desolid. I'd like to see a clear
answere on what happens when Desolid characters fall, for instance.
A fall or collision is really no different from other normal, physical
attacks, so the Desolid character shouldn't take damage, but, in that
case, what keeps him from falling *through* the ground who-knows-how-
far?
h > Let me get this straight.
h > Stainless Steel Rat is arguing a loose interpretation of the rules
h > based
h > on logic, and others are arguing for a by-the-book ruling?
No, it only appears that way. Rat is sticking to his usual if-you-
want-the-power-you-have-to-pay-for-it, tight constructionism.
h > Was this on the list of Signs of the Apocalypse discussed a few
h > weeks ago?
h > (PS: FWIW I'm with Rat on this one, mainly for the reason quoted
h > above.)
h > ---
h > Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
h > http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
h > Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
h > http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
h >
h >
h >
h >
h > ---
h > * Origin: Usenet:Fidonet: Red October Gateway (1:143/241.0)
___
* OFFLINE 1.58 * I am not a Rules Lawyer...I'm a Rules Activist.
From: "\"John Desmarais\" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
\"Multiple recipients of Hero\"" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 97 19:05:42
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Comic and HERO conversion
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On 02 Oct 97 05:55:02 GMT, Michael Adams wrote:
>
>
>Anyoen doing any "official" or "unofficial" convertions of known current and
>past Marvel/DC, Dark Horse and other comic hero mags?
>
>To include non-supers.
Umm... Well, i've just posted a bunch of DC's New Gods characters to this list over the
past two weeks, and am now thinking about what other characters might be fun to do
once I finish up the last few of them. Beyond that Sam Bell, Tim Larson, George Ruban,
Michael Surbrook, and others whos names are escaping me at the moment have been
posting write-ups of popular comic/manga/novel/etc... characters for a while now. The
bulk of these can be found at either
http://www.mactyre.net/scm/deejay/champs/writeups.html or
http://www.darkrealms.com/~antcrusher/gnborh.html
-=>John D.
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From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 97 19:05:42
X-To: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org&> "Multiple recipients of Hero" <hero-l@october.com>
Subject: Re: Comic and HERO conversion
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On 02 Oct 97 05:55:02 GMT, Michael Adams wrote:
>
>
>Anyoen doing any "official" or "unofficial" convertions of known current and
>past Marvel/DC, Dark Horse and other comic hero mags?
>
>To include non-supers.
Umm... Well, i've just posted a bunch of DC's New Gods characters to this list over the
past two weeks, and am now thinking about what other characters might be fun to do
once I finish up the last few of them. Beyond that Sam Bell, Tim Larson, George Ruban,
Michael Surbrook, and others whos names are escaping me at the moment have been
posting write-ups of popular comic/manga/novel/etc... characters for a while now. The
bulk of these can be found at either
http://www.mactyre.net/scm/deejay/champs/writeups.html or
http://www.darkrealms.com/~antcrusher/gnborh.html
-=>John D.
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From: Jim Dickinson <champion@cyberhighway.net>
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 13:58:03 -0700
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Subject: Re: Comic and HERO conversion
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At 05:55 AM 10/2/97 GMT, you wrote:
>
>
>Anyoen doing any "official" or "unofficial" convertions of known current and
>past Marvel/DC, Dark Horse and other comic hero mags?
>
>To include non-supers.
Check out the Great Net Book of Real Heroes on the Circle of HEROs at:
http://www.darkrealms.com/~antcrusher/gnborh.html
Have fun!
Jim
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From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:04:06 -0700
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Subject: Re: Comic and HERO conversion
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I have converted the following:
(the numbers on the left are point totals)
All Star Squadron
143 Wing
145 Sandy
153 Tiger
228 Atom (v1)
229 Amazingman
229 Wildcat
239 Hourman
242 Tarantula
271 Dr Midnite
276 Airwave
279 Iron Munro
280 Crimson Avenger
290 Liberty Belle
304 Judomaster
308 Sandman
312 Atom (v2)
323 Firebrand II
327 Fury
328 Starman
337 Hawkwoman
341 Hawkman
348 Commander Steel
363 Shining Knight
415 Robotman
497 Dr Fate (v1)
526 Superman (v1)
558 Uncle Sam
695 Flash
695 Superman (v2)
720 Johnny Quick
1164 Dr Fate (v2)
1497 Spectre
Avengers
314 Falcon
322 Hawkeye
337 Mockingbird
344 Scarlet Witch
378 Tigra
385 Wasp
399 Black Knight
416 Black Panther
449 Black Widow
496 Yellowjacket
505 Jocasta
518 Quicksilver
545 Sif
579 She_hulk
609 Captain America
640 Starfox
727 Wonderman
777 Vision
778 Hercules
833 Iron_man
1217 Thor
Fantastic Four
635 Thing
645 Invisible Woman
697 Mr Fantastic
787 Human Torch
Frightful Four/Fearsome Five
257 Mammoth
272 Medusa
290 Gizmo
368 Dr Light
395 Shimmer
436 Trapster
442 Wizard
578 Psimon
607 Sandman
631 Brute
Hamner's Mercenaries
181 Discus
181 Stiletto
271 Boomerang
276 Blizzard
286 Constrictor
294 Bluestreak
318 Blacklash
367 Porcupine
469 Force
493 Spymaster
Infinity Inc
214 Dr Midnight
232 Hourman
254 Wildcat II
261 Brainwave Jr
325 Silver Scarab
332 Mr Bones
369 Fury
372 Nuklon
372 Star Spangled Kid
374 Northwind
401 Obsidian
476 Jade
Justice League of America
292 Ice
325 Green Arrow
380 Blue Beetle
390 Hawkwoman
399 Hawkman
401 Black Canary
408 Fire
423 Rocket Red
482 Aquaman
513 Dr Light
535 Mr Miracle
546 Batman
571 Elongated Man
628 Power Girl
752 Wonder Woman
758 Maxima
827 Flash
1055 Martian Manhunter
1661 Superman
Legion of Galactic Guardians (Amalgam)
374 Spider Boy
386 Invisible Girl
395 Phantom Cat
480 Vance Cosmic
488 Sparkler
496 Phoenetix
518 Lady Bug
533 Lectron
547 Mass
573 Living Colossus
585 Martinex 5
621 Psi-Girl
662 Darkstar
816 Chamelion
846 Xcel
1088 Nucleus
1151 Myriad
Legion of Superheroes
217 Matter Eater Lad
262 Invisible Kid II
355 Magnetic Lad
356 Bouncing Boy
387 Invisible Kid
395 Phantom Girl
405 Star Boy
414 Atmos
423 Lightning Lad
429 Lightning Lass
434 Polar Boy
439 Tellus
439 Tyroc
441 Dream Girl
442 Duo Damsel
480 Cosmic Boy
496 Shadow Lass
498 Chemical King
504 Sun Boy
539 Karate Kid
545 Kent Shakespeare
546 Timber Wolf
548 Ferro Lad
573 Colossal Boy
589 Braniac-5
631 White Witch
661 Saturn Girl
705 Dawnstar
707 Blok
738 Sensor Girl
752 Ultra Boy
810 Chamelion Boy
905 Shrinking Violet
1088 Element Lad
1213 Wildfire
1583 Superboy
1617 Mon El
1650 Supergirl
Legion of Super Villains
85 Ron Karr
148 Tarik
195 Spider Girl
203 Radiation Roy
271 Hunter
282 Mist Master
330 Saturn Queen
350 Lightning Lord
351 Esper Lass
358 Magno Lad
367 Silver Slasher
374 Titania (LSV)
397 Chameleon Chief
403 Tyr
448 Sun Emperor
557 Lazon
615 Micro Lad
642 Cosmic King
901 Nuetrax
1312 Ol Vir
Magneto and the Metal Men (Amalgam)
248 Vance Cosmic
250 Bismuth
256 Iron
269 Black Vulture
270 Antimony
277 Nickel
279 Kultron
308 Deathborg
351 Soniklaw
354 Cobalt
438 Magneto
Marvel Misc
227 Angar
261 Aguila
267 Batroc
313 American Eagle
343 Ant Man
363 Armadillo
386 Arabian Knight
408 Arkon
472 Attuma
552 Abomination
629 Annihilus
679 Blaastar
694 Spider Man
707 Captain Marvel
777 Ares
1168 Beta Ray Bill
Masters of Evil
198 Egghead
226 Melter
248 Piledriver
248 Thunderball
249 Bulldozer
284 Shocker
296 Screaming Mimi
333 Scorpion
349 Titania
358 Yellowjacket
362 Wrecker (v2)
365 Black Knight 2
368 Beetle
372 Fixer
398 Baron Zemo 2
422 Baron Zemo 1
423 Tiger Shark
429 Wrecker (v1)
445 Mr Hyde
486 Blackout
526 Whirlwind
582 Radioactive Man
592 Grey Gargoyle
617 Moonstone
686 Executioner
690 Goliath
884 Klaw
907 Enchantress
1044 Absorbing Man
Serpent Society
138 Cottonmouth
179 Coachwhip
218 Boomslang
232 Bushmaster
246 Rock Python
253 Sidewinder
261 Puff Adder
276 Diamondback
290 Anaconda
292 Black Racer
293 Rattler
297 Asp
315 Diamondback (Post SSS)
321 Death Adder
395 Cobra
X-Men
320 Boom Boom
349 Domino
351 Shatterstar
362 Shadowcat
372 Warpath
410 Havok
421 Sunspot
427 Psylocke
437 Beast
450 Siryn
466 Sunfire
472 Nightcrawler
479 Cannonball
490 Marvel Girl
511 Banshee
542 Archangel
550 Cyclops
557 Colossus
637 Cable
710 Prof X
713 Wolverine
793 Storm
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 17:39:22 -0400 (EDT)
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> > I think you should have kidnapped this player's dog. I wonder what
> > Mr. "Animal Experiments are Happy and Good so Stop Criticizing them,
> > Captain Spith, or You'll Make Me Cry" would have said to that!
> >
> > -Eric
>
>
> i remember an advert that JAMA put out in the late 80's, it showed a
> group of animal rights activists protesting and had a caption that read
> " Thanks to animal testing, they can protest 15.5 years longer."
> Then it listed all the drugs that required animal testing and thier
> medical application.
> -Ek
>
Actually, I don't feel strongly one way or the other about animal testing.
I was just making fun of a whiny, oversensitive player. The aliens in
the Captain's game were plot points, not a political statement. Or so
it seems from the Captain's post.
-Eric
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 16:20:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Comic and HERO conversion
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Sam Bell writes:
>
>
> I have converted the following:
<list zapped>
A large portion of his writeups (along with some other people's versions) are
on the web -- currently at
http://www.mactyre.net/scm/deejay/champs/writeups.html
This isn't the original site, and the page isn't being maintained any more as
far as I can tell, but there's still quite a bit there. Actually, there's a
lot of good things at Shelley Chrystal Mactyre's website
<http://www.mactyre.net/scm>
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford)
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 23:27:41 GMT
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On Thu, 02 Oct 1997 03:32:23 -0700, you wrote:
> As I see it, a GM has to make some assumptions about what the players
>will consider somewhere between 'evil' and 'unacceptable', and this
>would generally require some sort of assumed 'moral' stance... Has
>anyone else had this happen?
In my campaign there is a local anti-hero who is going around killing
drug lords. His powers allow him to find out who's a dealer, and he
executes them on the spot. Now, some of these people aren't exactly
the stereotypical drug dealer; one was a high level politician in the
city. The heroes have found out the connecting link between the
killings (they were all drug lords) and now have a major morality
problem.
Do they hunt and attempt to capture this anti-hero, or do they do
nothing? Right now the team leader feels he should be brought to
justice, even though he's doing the city a lot of good (drug related
crimes have fallen drastically).
However, the hero group has two aliens in it who believe what he is
doing is quite acceptable and he should be lauded for his actions. It
will be interesting to see how this resolves.
John Lansford
Comments: Authenticated sender is <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 00:00:00 +0000
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
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> Actually, I don't feel strongly one way or the other about animal testing.
> I was just making fun of a whiny, oversensitive player. The aliens in
> the Captain's game were plot points, not a political statement. Or so
> it seems from the Captain's post.
I think it's perfectly valid to present these players with moral
dilemmas, as long as you let the players make their own resolution to
the problem.
Ever hear of "Flight of the Valkyries", the old CHAMPIONS module
where the only way to "win" was to let the Holocaust happen? Brrrr.
Guy
----------------------------------
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com)
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf
and the PANGAEA Project!
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 20:13:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Comic and HERO conversion
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On Thu, 2 Oct 1997, John Desmarais wrote:
> On 02 Oct 97 05:55:02 GMT, Michael Adams wrote:
> >
> >Anyoen doing any "official" or "unofficial" convertions of known current and
> >past Marvel/DC, Dark Horse and other comic hero mags?
> >
> >To include non-supers.
>
> Beyond that Sam Bell, Tim Larson, George Ruban,
> Michael Surbrook, and others whos names are escaping me at the moment have been
> posting write-ups of popular comic/manga/novel/etc... characters for a while now. The
> bulk of these can be found at either
> http://www.mactyre.net/scm/deejay/champs/writeups.html or
> http://www.darkrealms.com/~antcrusher/gnborh.html
Actually, all of my completed write-ups can be found at:
http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html
And for the record, this is a list of my completed and planned adaptions
CHARACTER LIST
Origin Name Points
Appleseed
Artemis
Briarios
Deunan Knute
Big trouble in Little China
Chang Sing (generic)
David Lo Pan
Egg Shen
Jack Burton
Lightning
Thunder
Rain
Wang Chi
Wing Cong (generic)
Blade of the Immortal
Manji
Rin
Caravan Kidd
Mian Toris
Shion
Cinematic Martial Artists & Action Heroes
Bruce Lee 338
Chow Yun-Fat 309
Jackie Chan 308
Sho Kosugi
Steven Seagal 327
Toshiro Mifune 301
Dirty Pair, The (Adam Warren)
Kei
Shasti
Yuri
Dominion
Anna & Uni Puma
Buaku
Bonaparte
Greenpeace Crolis 95
Leona Ozaki
Drakuun
Karula
Minerva
Dragonball Z
Android #17
Android #18
Bulma
Chi-Chi
Kirilin
Oolong
Piccolo
Poolo
Son Gohan
Son Goku 967
Tenishian
Trunks
Vegita
Videl
Yamcha
Eternal Champions
Corum 285
Elric 337
Stormbringer 327
Hero Doom
Arachnotron 228
Archville 363
Baron of Hell 277
Cacodemon 198
Cyberdemon 463
Demon 118
Hell Knight 221
Imp 102
Mancubus 228
Lost Soul 79
Pain Elemental 187
Revenant 242
Spectre 149
Spider Demon 377
Zombie Chaingunner 159
Zombie Human 123
Zombie Sargent 136
Gunsmith Cats
Bean Bandit 214
Buff the Roadbuster
Ken Takizawa
Minnie May 86
Rally (Larry) Vincent 202
Mage
Edsel
Grackleflint
Kevin Matchstick 441
Mirth
Sean Knight
Ninja Scroll
Benisato 425
Dakuan 222
Himuro Genma 416
Kagero 335
Kibagami Jubei 387
Mushito
Shijima 414
Tessa 366
Utsutsu Mujuro 384
Yurimaru 360
Zakuro
Oh, My Goddess!
Belldandy 421
Skuld 329
Urd 556
Outlanders
Battia
Geobaldi
Kahm
Princess Bride
Fezzik 211
Humperdink 276
Inigo Montoya 218
Man in Black 268
Rugen 147
Vizzini 94
Project A-ko
A-ko 342
B-ko 492
Ranma 1/2
Akane Tendo
Kodachi Kuno
Mousse
Ranma Saotome
Ryoga Hibiki 268
Shampoo
Tatewaki Kuno
Silent Mobius
AMP Stozwind 252
Grospolina 207
Katsumi Liqueur 433
Kiddy Phenil 356
Lebia Mavelick 605
Nami Yamagumo 295
Rally Cheyenne 528
Yuki Saiko 168
Tenchi Muyo
Ayeka
Kagato
Mihoshi
Ryoko 927
Tenchi
Washu
The Heroic Trio
Invisible Woman
Thiefcatcher
Wonder Woman
Usagi Yojimbo
Gen
Jei
Miyamoto Usagi
Tomoe Ame
Zato-ino
Wildcards
Astronomer, The 556
Bagabond 328
Barnett, Leo 150
Black Eagle 519
Bludgeon 129
Cpt. Trips 64
(Aquarius) 105
(Aquarius - Dolphin Form) 479
(Cosmic Traveler) 372
(Jumping Jack Flash) 722
(Moonchild) 463
(Starshine) 448
Carnifex 334
Chaisson Cordelia 201
Chickenhawk 52
Chysalis 124
Cyclone 302
Deadhead 24
Demise 346
Desmond, Xavier 41
Digger Downs 104
Dr. Tachyon 624
Dutton, Charles 64
Elephant Girl 92
(Elephant form) 341
Ellis, Angela 143
Envoy, The 224
Ezili-je-Rouge 121
Fadeout 210
Fantasy 143
Father Squid 178
Fortunato 481
Gimli 106
Golden Boy 309
Harlem Hammer, The 310
Howler, The 244
Jayewardene, JC 77
Jube the Walrus 143
Kant, Harvey 126
Kid Dinosaur 119
Kien Phuc 136
Lazy Dragon 230
Loophole 152
Mackie Messer 336
Modular Man 631
Oddity, The 199
Peregrine 196
Popinjay 447
Puppetman 210
Quasiman 200
Sewer Jack 75
(Alligator form) 179
Sleeper, The varies
Steele, George 197
Strauss, Jerimiah 141
Ti Malice 201
Travineck, Maxim 632
Troll 153
Turtle, The 349
(Shell) 172
Warlock 133
Water Lily 263
Whisperer 178
Worchester, Hiram 480
Wraith 232
Wyrm 285
Wyungare 170
Yeoman 335
Others
Name Origin Points
Battle Angel Battle Angel Alita/Gunm 465
Beowulf Beowulf 270
Bride With White Hair, The The Bride With White Hair
Buckaroo Banzai Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai 466
Buzz Lightyear Toy Story 316
Conan Conan series 371
Danger Mouse Danger Mouse 223
Devil Hunter Yohko Devil Hunter Yohko
Ent Lord of the Rings 243
Grendel Beowulf 275
Grendal (Hunter Rose) Grendal 333
Grimjack Grimjack 396
Gunslinger, The The Dark Tower 426
Iczer (generic) Iczer 1 / Iczer 3
M-66 Black Magic 587
Mad Max The Road Warrior 150
Major Motoko Kusanagi Ghost in the Shell
Nieh Hsiao Tsing A Chinese Ghost Story 457
Nuku Nuku All Purpose Cultural Cat Girl
Randall Flagg The Stand
Samurai Cat Samurai Cat series
Sonnet Blue Sonnet 693
Spaceman Spiff Calvin and Hobbes 200
Stupendous Man Calvin and Hobbes 399
Tetsuo Shima Akira 1050
The Invisible Man The Invisible Man 162
The Time Traveller The Time Traveller 102
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 13:53:19 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
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At 03:32 AM 10/2/97 -0700, you wrote:
> As I see it, a GM has to make some assumptions about what the players
>will consider somewhere between 'evil' and 'unacceptable', and this
>would generally require some sort of assumed 'moral' stance... Has
>anyone else had this happen?
>
the difficulty is in 'character morality' vs 'gm morality'. as *luck* would have i i've been a'lurking at a particular pbem site in which the gm put up a certain moral quandry for the pc's to face in the game. The problem was. . . . erm. . .i'm gonna go fer the 'no names' mode of address fer this one. . . . well, from my perspective the pc's never stood a chance against the gm's moral assumptions. Without going into detail the gm seemed to be pushing for a particular angle, even going as far as to have a gm/pc supporting the gm's opinion/agenda, *and* a more omnipotent force involved with one of the pc's origins pushing for the same option. On top of this the position itself was faulty- i'm not talking 'i don't agree' here, but 'here's 17 big holes in your argument'. But logic really doesn't matter. What i guess i'm getting at is a gm who heavyhandedly pushes the pc's towards a particular option, because they think it's the right one. . . what does everybody else think?
From: PopTholian@aol.com
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 00:00:20 -0400 (EDT)
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Re: Vehicles and bases
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In a message dated 10/1/97 8:47:10 AM, robtwest@erols.com wrote:
>1) A dead follower is like a dead duplicate: the points are lost.
>2) A dead follower is like a broken focus: replacable as soon as the
>GM rules that it is reasonable.
>3) A dead follower is like a destroyed unbreakable focus: to be replaced
>only with difficulty, such as by a quest.
Our house rules:
Destroyed Vehicles, Bases, and Duplicates and Foci
can only return no more quickly than it would take to get the
equivalent Body back via natural healing.
From: PopTholian@aol.com
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 00:00:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: In defense of Shape Shift (was: CHAR: The Saint)
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In a message dated 10/1/97 1:48:08 AM, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
>>(of course the egoist can cause the user of the retinal-corder to
>>beleive he saw a correct reading, but that's another power...)
>what if you buy shapeshift with a mentalist special effect?
>I.E. 'mind controlling' everybody into thinking you are someone else?
>While it has the inherent advantages/limitations of all SFX,
>it's a perfectly valid possibility. . .
That's true. I mentioned something like it. The retina-scan detector's alarm
goes off but no-one in the room is permitted to notice the result.
I also do not possess the Ultimate Mentalist, so there
are probably permutations to the rule you are mentioning
that us non-wealthy gamers do not know about yet....
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 14:01:11 +1000
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Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
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At 10:37 AM 10/2/97 -0400, you wrote:
>I think you should have kidnapped this player's dog. I wonder what
>Mr. "Animal Experiments are Happy and Good so Stop Criticizing them,
>Captain Spith, or You'll Make Me Cry" would have said to that!
>
>-Eric
>
erm, was it for cancer research of cosmetics? no offence, but i'd rather lower mamals die than we get another phalidimide(sp?doh). . . now, let's remove 'cancer' and add 'superpowers'. . . .. . does it still hold up morally?
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 00:04:02 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Comic and HERO conversion
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>Caravan Kidd
> Mian Toris
> Shion
Hey! Ain't ya gonna do Babo and Wataru? List of some of Babo's abilities:
'Babo ate some kusai beans' Elemental Control:
A.) 4D6 Energy Blast, NND (LS: Self Contained), AE: Radius, Extra Radius,
Continious, Uncontrolled, Personal Immunity, No Range
B.) Extra STR, only for supporting weight while Gliding (bouyancy)
END Reserve, 100 END, 10 REC, Rec Only while eating Kusai beans (feeds EB
and extra STR)
Gliding (Inflates from Kusai beans, or spews strands of 'silk' from his behind)
50rED, Double Hardened (survives blast furnace temperatures)
75% Physical and Energy Damage Reduction, Resistant (damn near invulnerable)
Lots of non-resistant PD
Some resistant PD
1 pip RKA, no range (very acidic urine)
Contact: Akogi Underground (get _anything_ if you can pay!)
Psych.Lim.: Extreme Greed (Very Common, Strong)
Psych.Lim.: Lecherous (Common, Strong)
Psych.Lim.: Lazy (Common, Strong)
And probably some other stuff I'm forgetting (I should go back and re-read
the series). If you haven't guessed, Babo was comic relief.
Wataru was fairly unremarkable, other than being able to survive piles of
damage without too much trouble, thanks to Mian constantly beating on him
:-). At one point he survives being backhanded into a wall by a giant robot,
without even bruising.
>Dirty Pair, The (Adam Warren)
> Kei
> Shasti
> Yuri
Don't forget Mughi!
Myself, I can't claim to Michael's impressive list, though I have done most
of the character's from Fred Perry's _Gold Digger_. (30+ writeups).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Guns-ablazin', fu-fightin', spell-chuckin', rubber-monster-stompin' ACTION!"
-John comments on Feng Shui
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 14:05:04 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
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At 10:43 AM 10/2/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Nez wrote some comments about moral dilemmas being interesting role-playing
>opportunities. That's one perspective that I partially agree with.
>However, they could also be viewed as 'no-win' situations. I suggest using
>these sparingly if you're not sure how your players and/or their characters
>would react.
it's only no-win if the gm let's it be ... i'd say a moral dillema is like any good puzzle- the way out should NOY be just what the gm has planned. . but what the pc's throw together. .
>
>Curt Hicks
>
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 14:07:26 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
Subject: question #1. ..
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At 08:15 AM 10/2/97 -0400, you wrote:
>> Well, one of my players at a later date accused me of trying to put
>> forth my own views on animal experimentation. He also mentioned some
>> other event in the campaign as another example of 'working my own
>> agenda' but I can't recall what it was at this time.
>
>It's called writing. Show me a story, book, show that doesn't have at least
>some questions of morality of agenda, and i'll show you a fairly boring
>story.
>Gilligan's island occasionally had morality plays. It's part of telling
>stories.The unique thing role playing adds is allowing the characters to
>really come form different moral points of view, and allowing the players
>to really delve into what it means. This is excellent character development.
>
the problem arises when the gm's 'reality' rejects the pc's choices, even though real life rarely works that way. .
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 23:11:37 -0500
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 10:37 AM 10/2/97 -0400, Eric Burns wrote:
>I think you should have kidnapped this player's dog. I wonder what
>Mr. "Animal Experiments are Happy and Good so Stop Criticizing them,
>Captain Spith, or You'll Make Me Cry" would have said to that!
1) This IS selling a moral agenda, whether the original example was or not.
2) I can take offense at this without having to take offense at animal
experimentation -- if you kidnapped my dog to spoil it rotten, it's still
kidnapping MY dog, wrong in-and-of itself.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely. |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 14:16:40 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
Subject: Re: Mind Control/Telepathy via TV?
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
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At 01:16 PM 10/2/97 -0400, you wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "j" == jonesmj <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> writes:
>
>j> why not a 'hero'???
>
>Yup, it is really heroic to turn an entire city into one's personal,
>mindless zombies.
take a look at mr wong's supercop. . . . she's a hero, but frankly i seen any nondemocratic nation as a country of zombies(and that includes big lumps of america AND australia). . . . .
>
>Or is this some new definition of "heroic" I was previously unfamiliar
>with?
>
you'll note the "''" ? and please let's not argue over what a hero is again, especially considering NO comic character fully matches up to ALL parameters for heroic- only ever some. . hence the moral code you set up for a hero is one potential trait, but a hero can be completly immoral- citizen V counts as a superhero, as does spawn, as does wolverene, from different points of view. .
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>
>--
>Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
>PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin.
> \
>
>
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 14:18:57 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
Subject: Re: Mind Control/Telepathy via TV?
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 01:15 PM 10/2/97 -0400, you wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "j" == jonesmj <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> writes:
>
>j> not really- what if the pc want's to supress the effect?
>
>He would have to suppress a thousand-point power, give or take a few
>hundred. I dunnow about you, but most PCs are not going to have enough
>dice of Suppress to make a dent in this thing.
>
not if you buy it as 0end sticky. . . . or another intelligant use of normally illegal power constructs . .
>Since it is a plot device, you have to wing it -- either the PC is
>successful, or he is not. But have him roll the dice anyway just to keep
>him guessing.
>
>[...]
>
and so worst case is his sucess is based entirely on wether the gm wants him to suceed or not, no matter how hard he tries. .
>>> If he is an NPC, why in the name of anything you hold dear would you let
>>> a PC have such a thing?
>
>j> open-minded gm?
>
>Yeah, right.
>
yeah, RIGHT!
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>
>--
>Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly
>PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds.
> \
>
>
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 14:26:07 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
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At 05:39 PM 10/2/97 -0400, you wrote:
>> > I think you should have kidnapped this player's dog. I wonder what
>> > Mr. "Animal Experiments are Happy and Good so Stop Criticizing them,
>> > Captain Spith, or You'll Make Me Cry" would have said to that!
>> >
>> > -Eric
>>
>>
>> i remember an advert that JAMA put out in the late 80's, it showed a
>> group of animal rights activists protesting and had a caption that read
>> " Thanks to animal testing, they can protest 15.5 years longer."
>> Then it listed all the drugs that required animal testing and thier
>> medical application.
>> -Ek
>>
>
>Actually, I don't feel strongly one way or the other about animal testing.
>I was just making fun of a whiny, oversensitive player. The aliens in
>the Captain's game were plot points, not a political statement. Or so
>it seems from the Captain's post.
>
>-Eric
>
there's the rub- a bad gm would have focused on the issue and forced it through, whereas in the captain's example the issue was a function of them and the plot, not the other way around. . .
From: DocWeird@aol.com
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 01:35:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1 or Why Do We Do It Anyway???
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
In a message dated 97-10-02 11:05:31 EDT, you write:
<< Well, one of my players at a later date accused me of trying to put
> forth my own views on animal experimentation. He also mentioned some
> other event in the campaign as another example of 'working my own
> agenda' >>
Well, first and formost, not saying that you were "working your own
agenda"
SO WHAT.... In my opinion, that's what the GM's JOB is, to 'work an agenda'
be it his or something that he saw or read or came up with......
The HERO's job, is to find a way to defeat the villian of the
scenario-----be it another Underoo Jockey, or a concept such as Hate-crimes,
genocide (like Hitler, not the anti-mutant group), heck Genocide too.
I PERSONALLY think that the games are even better when they make me
explore parts of myself and thoughts that I would rather not 'take the time
to worry about'
At least that's what ROLE-PLAYING has always been to me...
( of course, kicking some major butt once in a while keeps it fun as
well)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------D
ocWeird
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 02:40:08 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Eric Burns wrote:
> > i remember an advert that JAMA put out in the late 80's, it showed a
> > group of animal rights activists protesting and had a caption that read
> > " Thanks to animal testing, they can protest 15.5 years longer."
> > Then it listed all the drugs that required animal testing and thier
> > medical application.
> > -Ek
> >
>
> Actually, I don't feel strongly one way or the other about animal testing.
> I was just making fun of a whiny, oversensitive player. The aliens in
> the Captain's game were plot points, not a political statement. Or so
> it seems from the Captain's post.
Exactly; my actual position is not extreme in either direction on
animal testing, but the subject was broached in the game and I responde
in-character, but the player took it wrong.
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 02:50:10 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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John Lansford wrote:
> In my campaign there is a local anti-hero who is going around killing
> drug lords. His powers allow him to find out who's a dealer, and he
> executes them on the spot. Now, some of these people aren't exactly
> the stereotypical drug dealer; one was a high level politician in the
> city. The heroes have found out the connecting link between the
> killings (they were all drug lords) and now have a major morality
> problem.
(moral quandry expounded upon)
I've long had an idea for an anti-hero intended to inspire moral
quandries; a female vigilante who goes after rapists. The
victims/criminals are found in alleys with dead from blood loss and
suffocation; their ... tender areas ... are removed and found in their
own mouths.
It's pretty gruesome (and incredibly uncomfortable for men to even
*read* about, sure, but the concept is just exquisite.... I've never
found a way to introduce a scenario with her yet, tho.
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 15:57:57 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Re: Vehicles and bases
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Rook wrote:
> It seems to preset for my tastes though. I would make such a thing
>into a scenerio or subplot, and let them get it back at the resolution of
such..
> Such as my previous Batman and Robin note. Robin leaves to become
>Nightwing, leader of the Teen Titans in the early 80's comic books. Suddenly
>Batman is without a sidekick. So he searches or whatever and in time a new
>kid presents himself. I'm not a major Batman reader, but I think it went
>something like that.
Actually, Dick (Nightwing) Grayson took off, and Bats was solo for
awhile. Then he just happened to catch a kid stealing the Batmobile's
hubcaps (Jason Todd). Then, this kid was killed by the Joker. His current
Robin figured out who Bats was (Holy Crow, it's my next door neighbor, Bruce
Wayne) and forced himself on him. I really don't see these as examples of
working to replace a sidekick, but I do see your point, otherwise.
- Jerry
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 03:07:30 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
>
> At 03:32 AM 10/2/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
> > As I see it, a GM has to make some assumptions about what the players
> >will consider somewhere between 'evil' and 'unacceptable', and this
> >would generally require some sort of assumed 'moral' stance... Has
> >anyone else had this happen?
> >
>
>
>the difficulty is in 'character morality' vs 'gm morality'. as *luck* would have i i've >been a'lurking at a particular pbem site in which the gm put up a certain moral quandry >for the pc's to face in the game. The problem was. . . . erm. . .i'm gonna go fer the >'no names' mode of address fer this one. . . . well, from my perspective the pc's never >stood a chance against the gm's moral assumptions. Without going into detail the gm >seemed to be pushing for a particular angle, even going as far as to have a gm/pc >supporting the gm's opinion/agenda, *and* a more omnipotent force involved with one of >the pc's origins pushing for the same option. On top of this the position itself was >faulty- i'm not talking 'i don't agree' here, but 'here's 17 big holes in your >argument'. But logic really doesn't matter. What i guess i'm getting at is a gm who >heavyhandedly pushes the pc's towards a particular option, because they think it's the >right one. . . what does everybody else t!
hink?
I think that if a GM presents a scenario that _requires_ a particular
moral/ethical stance for success, I would say that the GM is - at best -
lacking in scenario-building skills. In any scenario I've ever run,
I've been ready to accomodate anything the PC's might do, and at times,
I swear they've done things just to test that theory...
In my aliens scenario, the point I was attempting to put forward was
"these guys are abducting and experimenting on you (your race); what are
you gonna do about it?"
I'm sure that if they were aware and physically able, bunnies and
monkeys would fight back as well... whether it's right or wrong, nobody
wants to be the one to have laundry detergent spread on their eyeballs.
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 03:11:15 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
>
> At 10:37 AM 10/2/97 -0400, you wrote:
> >I think you should have kidnapped this player's dog. I wonder what
> >Mr. "Animal Experiments are Happy and Good so Stop Criticizing them,
> >Captain Spith, or You'll Make Me Cry" would have said to that!
> >
> >-Eric
> >
>
> erm, was it for cancer research of cosmetics? no offence, but i'd rather lower mamals >die than we get another phalidimide(sp?doh). . . now, let's remove 'cancer' and add >'superpowers'. . . .. . does it still hold up morally?
Actually, they aliens had been cloning themselves for generations and
were slowly genetically deteriorating. They were looking for compatable
genes and enzymes in humans to 'recharge' their race...
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 03:38:53 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: GMing Question #2
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
>
> At 10:43 AM 10/2/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >Nez wrote some comments about moral dilemmas being interesting role-playing
> >opportunities. That's one perspective that I partially agree with.
> >However, they could also be viewed as 'no-win' situations. I suggest using
> >these sparingly if you're not sure how your players and/or their characters
> >would react.
>
> it's only no-win if the gm let's it be ... i'd say a moral dillema is like any good >puzzle- the way out should NOY be just what the gm has planned. . but what the pc's >throw together. .
This brings me to my other question (which is why I specified that
the last one was #1):
How often do you craft a scenario with certain assumptions BASED ON
gaming experience with certain players/characters, just to have the
players completely out of the blue flabbergast you with a totally
unexpected direction?
(Obligatory example)
Ironically enough, the same exact group of aliens, 150 years later in
a different game (my current group; the same world, 150 years after the
last game) have abducted one of the PCs. He was replaced by an android
replica which was not discovered for a few games (which is a COMPLETELY
different topic regarding player observation), but finally, they found
out, procured a ship and went to the moon (where the aliens were based)
to get him back.
Well, my wife's character had always been a little violent, bringing
a clear picture to the term 'overkill'. This, added to the 'group
loyalty' mindset of some of the other characters and one with a virtual
god complex, I thought would give me a good bloodbath scenario. I had
hoped they would kill off everyone on the moon - possibly leading to a
large scale invasion from the homeworld later - but primarily just to
clear out the moon.
BUT - Out Of The Blue(TM), my wife's violent, short tempered
character led the charge with an iron hand for ... negotiation. The
aliens were rude, surly, uncompromising, and refused to deal. Told them
that they had to stay on the moon as prisoners forever. (BTW, this was
not to 'push' the players, it was just the way I had decided the aliens
would react in that situation). PCs still worked at negotiation.
Well, the PCs finally managed to discover the aliens' grand agenda
and made a deal on those grounds. I was quite frankly - well,
flabbergasted - but impressed; I actually did not have to backpeddle or
change things, as the PCs legitimately found their own way out of the
situation by discovering enough about their foes...
But I had REALLY hoped for a bloodbath....
-Capt. Spith
----
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Subject: Re: Mind Control/Telepathy via TV?
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 97 06:43:23 -0400
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 10/3/97 12:16 AM
>At 01:16 PM 10/2/97 -0400, you wrote:
"j" == jonesmj <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> writes:
"r" == Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes:
j> why not a 'hero'???
r>Yup, it is really heroic to turn an entire city into one's personal,
r>mindless zombies.
j>take a look at mr wong's supercop. . . . she's a hero, but frankly i
seen
j>any nondemocratic nation as a country of zombies(and that includes big
j>lumps of america AND australia). . . . .
OK, it's bad enough I find myself in agreement with jones in principal,
but
I can't let this one slide. Most Democratic nations are a bunch of
mindless
zombies too. A few guys with the bucks and control of the media define
"democracy" in most of the world. Yes, I'm a cynic.
A better example actually came up in a PBEM I'm in. Basically, it was a
"lesser or two evil's" thing and the situation was played out twice. The
first time, the hero's mind controlled an entire city into ignoring a
major battle. Net result was the villans were routed and things returned
pretty much to normal. The second time around, the MC idea was killed by
a second group of heros, being more "heroic". Net result...Well, the
villans were still routed, however public sentiment was through WAY
against
any heros when the footage was shown over and over again of the massive
damage occuring, one "hero" ended up on trial for treason, the secret ids
of all the characters where placed in jeperdy, a third pparty hero was
very nearly killled, resulting in one "hero" group plotting the eventual
distruction (not death mind you, they were after suffering) of the group
that stopped the MC plan in the first place, the US was moved to Defcon 3
basically permanently...
Was MCing a whole city "good" and "heroic"? Most likely not, and the
charater who came up with the idea would be the first to admit that.
However, given the larger issues involved, like global peace it stills
seems justifiable. Admittedly, this game was far more "Dark Champs" in
nature, but dealing with colateral damage and combating the mass media
(who obviously DO have the described MC power :)) is a valid reason
for wanting to consider hoow to do very large AoE MCs.
r>Or is this some new definition of "heroic" I was previously unfamiliar
r>with?
No, it's not a new definition, it just plays to a couple old ones. First,
"the end justifies the means", which is always dangerous but is sometimes
the only way to "solve" moral quandries. Second, "the needs of the many
outway the needs of the few". In my example, world peace was simply more
important, in at least some people's minds, that being "good people" all
the time.
PAX,
John
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 06:02:09 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Comic and HERO conversion
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 02:04 PM 10/2/97 -0700, Sam Bell wrote:
>Masters of Evil
Pardon the aside, but am I the only one who's bothered by the fact that
this group's initials are MOE? Am I the only one who wants to given them a
pair of auxiliary groups with the initials LARRY and CURLY?
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 06:13:13 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Hero Games Home Page
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At 09:56 AM 10/2/97 -0500, you wrote:
> I just have to mention (I've let it slide up to now), that I've
>been quite pleased with Hero Games' recent rededication to the Hero 4th
>line. They realize the need to hold on to the gamers they've got, though
>it took awhile. As I was told repeatedly by Hero Games folk at GenCon,
>why would a player of 4th ed really want to get into Fuzion? We've got a
>very good gaming system. They want the newbies to get Fuzion.
This, I think, is what they've asserted all along (that they were
releasing Fuzion for the newbies and planning to maintain support for C4).
But yes, as you seem to be saying here, it took them a while to get any
momentum behind that.
> Proof of this dedication is the rerelease of older products in
>HeroPlus Acrobat format. I've finally got the UMA, as well as Eye for an
>Eye. They are working with Allston on a series of books, planned to be at
>least 6 for the time being, and probably all being realeased pretty close
>together. Finally, they have the magazene on the web page. We are given
>Hero 4th writeups of the Fuzion characters, making the Fuzion books much
>more valuable to us GMs who don't want to spend hours of conversion time,
>no matter what the ease asserted by Hero.
That brings me to my primary reason for responding to this post:
Has anyone seen the new release of Classic Enemies? Is it just an
electronic formatting of the original book from '89, or have the characters
been updated in any way?
> Anyway, I think we're through the Hero Dark age and are in much
>better shape than we were, say, at that first post-ICE GenCon. (Was it
>only '96?, sheesh)
I'll agree there. Now I only have to figure out how to drum up the
money to buy some of this new Hero stuff. (I don't even have TUSM yet!
Hey -- anybody wanna spring for an early Christmas present?)
---
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Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 06:16:54 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: In defense of Shape Shift (was: CHAR: The Saint)
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At 10:31 AM 10/2/97 -0400, Eric Burns wrote:
>> My take on it is: if the disguise (visually) is so good that it would
>> require a different actor to play the disguised character in a movie or TV
>> show than the one who usually does the job, then use Shape Shift. Rollin
>> Hand and Paris on "Mission: Impossible" would have this, as would the Human
>> Target.
>> The mechanical benefit is that observers get -Active Points to their PER
>> Rolls to penetrate the Disguise. (Yes, that's a house rule; wanna adopt
>> it?)
Oops, I should've said -(Active Points/10). My mistake.
>Yes, I think that some sort of penalty to the perception roll might be
>in order, or perhaps a bonus to the disguise roll.
>
>I mean, a shapeshifter would have "excellent materials" for disguise,
>right? And, if you're a shape shifter, taking someone else's form would
>be "easy" if not "routine". That would work out to between a +6
>to +8 bonus to the disguise roll. Sounds reasonable to me...
While I agree with the "Excellent Materials" statement I was thinking
more along the lines of -2 (or more) to PER Rolls just for using Shape
Shift as a means of Disguise, whether Disguise is a Required Skill Roll or
not.
---
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Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 06:17:22 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Mind Control/Telepathy via TV?
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At 01:16 PM 10/2/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>>>>> "j" == jonesmj <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> writes:
>
>j> why not a 'hero'???
>
>Yup, it is really heroic to turn an entire city into one's personal,
>mindless zombies.
>
>Or is this some new definition of "heroic" I was previously unfamiliar
>with?
Antiheroic, perhaps?
---
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Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 07:34:44 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
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At 12:00 AM 10/3/97 +0000, Guy Hoyle wrote:
>
>> Actually, I don't feel strongly one way or the other about animal testing.
>> I was just making fun of a whiny, oversensitive player. The aliens in
>> the Captain's game were plot points, not a political statement. Or so
>> it seems from the Captain's post.
>
>I think it's perfectly valid to present these players with moral
>dilemmas, as long as you let the players make their own resolution to
>the problem.
>
>Ever hear of "Flight of the Valkyries", the old CHAMPIONS module
>where the only way to "win" was to let the Holocaust happen? Brrrr.
Which is not all that far off the classic Star Trek episode "The City on
the Edge of Forever," where the heroic *goal* was to *make sure* it
happened.
---
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Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 07:40:00 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #2
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At 03:38 AM 10/3/97 -0700, Captain Spith wrote:
> This brings me to my other question (which is why I specified that
> the last one was #1):
I was wondering about that.
>How often do you craft a scenario with certain assumptions BASED ON
>gaming experience with certain players/characters, just to have the
>players completely out of the blue flabbergast you with a totally
>unexpected direction?
For a while, it happened almost every single time. That's one reason
(among several) that I quite GMing for a while, and started just absorbing
the wisdom of others. (The adventures you see on my website exemplify what
I've learned, and judging from the positive comments I've been getting, at
least my scenario planning has improved considerably in the past 8 years.)
---
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Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 07:43:58 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Vehicles and bases
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 12:00 AM 10/3/97 -0400, PopTholian@aol.com wrote:
>Destroyed Vehicles, Bases, and Duplicates and Foci
>can only return no more quickly than it would take to get the
>equivalent Body back via natural healing.
This makes sense to me.
But how much is the equivalent BODY?
Offhand, I'd say 1 BODY/2 points for Dupes, 1 BODY/5 points for other
stuff, but does anybody have any other ideas?
---
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Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 07:43:58 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Vehicles and bases
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 12:00 AM 10/3/97 -0400, PopTholian@aol.com wrote:
>Destroyed Vehicles, Bases, and Duplicates and Foci
>can only return no more quickly than it would take to get the
>equivalent Body back via natural healing.
This makes sense to me.
But how much is the equivalent BODY?
Offhand, I'd say 1 BODY/2 points for Dupes, 1 BODY/5 points for other
stuff, but does anybody have any other ideas?
---
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Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 08:46:13 -0600
From: Curtis Gibson <Mhoram@apeleon.net>
Subject: Great moment: Was-GMing Question #1
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Guy Hoyle wrote:
>
> > Actually, I don't feel strongly one way or the other about animal testing.
> > I was just making fun of a whiny, oversensitive player. The aliens in
> > the Captain's game were plot points, not a political statement. Or so
> > it seems from the Captain's post.
>
> I think it's perfectly valid to present these players with moral
> dilemmas, as long as you let the players make their own resolution to
> the problem.
>
> Ever hear of "Flight of the Valkyries", the old CHAMPIONS module
> where the only way to "win" was to let the Holocaust happen? Brrrr.
A bit of topic but....
I ran this and had the wonderfull amounts of angst in this. It gave way
to one of the greatest player moments in the campaign.
One PC is a superconservative type whose original concept was "What if
Henry Peter Gyrch was a mutant". After her powers became active and she
starting superheroing she mellowed out considerably, turning into a Capt
America type. In the alternate present, however, she ran the mutant
extermination orginization for the government (her powers never having
developed).
Back in the past one of the 'villians' wanted to know why she was
stopping them from killing Hitler, where upon she snarled pointed to
Himmler and said "Because you turned me into _him_!".
>
> Guy
> ----------------------------------
> Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com)
> http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/
> Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf
> and the PANGAEA Project!
--
-Mhoram
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your
two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Vehicles and bases
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 09:10:17 -0700 (PDT)
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>
> At 12:00 AM 10/3/97 -0400, PopTholian@aol.com wrote:
> >Destroyed Vehicles, Bases, and Duplicates and Foci
> >can only return no more quickly than it would take to get the
> >equivalent Body back via natural healing.
>
> This makes sense to me.
> But how much is the equivalent BODY?
> Offhand, I'd say 1 BODY/2 points for Dupes, 1 BODY/5 points for other
> stuff, but does anybody have any other ideas?
It seems to preset for my tastes though. I would make such a thing
into a scenerio or subplot, and let them get it back at the resolution of such..
Such as my previous Batman and Robin note. Robin leaves to become
Nightwing, leader of the Teen Titans in the early 80's comic books. Suddenly
Batman is without a sidekick. So he searches or whatever and in time a new
kid presents himself. I'm not a major Batman reader, but I think it went
something like that.
Or the X-Men mansion is destroyed for the 13414th time, and for the
123rd time they are driven into hiding by public opinion. So as the plot
evolves they beat up a villian team and occupy their base deep in the
Australian outback... where there just happens to be a Chinese orphan hiding
out who helps Wolverine becoming a new team member... :)
Etc...
Make em work for it, use it for an adventure hook.
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Mind Control/Telepathy via TV?
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 09:58:04 -0700 (PDT)
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>
> j> why not a 'hero'???
>
> r>Yup, it is really heroic to turn an entire city into one's personal,
> r>mindless zombies.
>
> j>take a look at mr wong's supercop. . . . she's a hero, but frankly i
> seen
> j>any nondemocratic nation as a country of zombies(and that includes big
> j>lumps of america AND australia). . . . .
>
It's not a case of mindlessness. It's a case of a society
which has a very diferent view of right and wrong than America does.
I think I went into that a little on her write-up. In many
asian cultures, individualists are viewed as a dangerous threat.
They feel that:
1. To have a stable society group harmony is needed.
A. Anyone who activily rocks the boats is promoting chaos and
social disorder. These people must be stopped before all of
society degenerates into one big mess.
2. Individualists are viewed as being selfish, spoiled, and only
out for their own concerns, not caring for the group as a whole.
A. Taking care of the group is the first priority. Making sure
everyone is content and working together.
B. An individual doesn't care about those around him, he just
does as he pleases. By his very nature he hurts other people.
3. Therefore everything is done to works towards a betterment of the group
as a whole. You can see this in asian corporations. Rather than
pay their executives luxerious salaries and hand all the profits
to the investors like we do; 90% of profit goes back into the
company, towards promoting the team and building up expansion.
This is why nations like Japan and S. Korea were able to
industrialize so fast. They all self sacrificed towards a common
goal. My wife worked for Samsung (korean) for 10 years. In that
time she did the whole company song, company uniform, etc...
As the company grew it began to reward it's people in ways we
never do. The employees had an almost inhuman (by western standards)
loyalty. Every quarter they got huge bonuses and free gifts from
the company's products. Vacation tour packages where set up to
send people on group trips to various countries. They went out
and bought permanent hotel space throughout the world reserved
for any employee at any level who went to those places...
At the same time the hard team work produced more revenue, which
went into more hiring, building new plants, putting up new stores,
etc... Everyone worked together. They say the average executive
in asia makes from 6 to 10 times the salary of his workers. In
the USA it's often 40 to 100 times as much.
They look to us and see our lack of group focus as a sign
that we are decadant. That our social order is collapsing. Most
of them think we have no morals. That we live only for self
gratification. They see the USA as the biblical Sodom and Gomora.
I've been in countlees debates with intellectuals I met
while living in asia on this very same argument. But over there
I was the one defending the wests point of view, wheras here I
am showing their view. :)
But I can vouch that they are not mindless sheep. A lot
of thought and debate goes behind their moral systems and the
structure of their governments.
Nor do I feel we in the west are culturless hedonits, but
I've had limited sucess convincing my asian friends of that. :)
To take this back to roleplaying. I like delimas like this cause they
are real world and have no correct answer; yet everyone on each side feels
adamant that there is a correct answer: theirs. Many of the worlds cultures
have radically diferent views on what is right and wrong. Throwing PC's
into a situation where they have to deal with another human culture can be
quite entertaining. Especially if you do the research needed to present
the foriegn culture as truely self-justified in its actions, without making
it feel artificial. It's real hard for us, even in roleplay, to break past
the boundaries of our own social paradigms.
A case like the 'what to do with Hitler" one is a little more clear cut.
There is a desire to preserve history, and avoid worser possibities. And
who's to say that Germany wouldn't have won if they could have removed Hitler...
The Aliies greatest asset in WWII was having Hitler as their enemy. The man
was hardly stable. 90% of all groups would chose to ensure history followed
it's course in this one.
But throw in a situation where two opposing moral viewpoints conflict,
yet almost agree. The tension will boil just beneath the surface, and
eventually give you some dramatic roleplay results. Especially if you can do
it with half your PC's on one side, and the other half on the other.
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 18:46:12 +0100
X-To: Multiple recipients of Hero <hero-l@october.com>
Subject: Re: Comic and HERO conversion
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Have you published these on a website or as a posting?
----
From: Sam Bell <Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM>
To: champ-l@omg.org
Date: 03 October 1997 01:04
Subject: Re: Comic and HERO conversion
>
>
>
>I have converted the following:
>
>(the numbers on the left are point totals)
>
>All Star Squadron
>
> 143 Wing
> 145 Sandy
> 153 Tiger
> 228 Atom (v1)
> 229 Amazingman
> 229 Wildcat
> 239 Hourman
> 242 Tarantula
> 271 Dr Midnite
> 276 Airwave
> 279 Iron Munro
> 280 Crimson Avenger
> 290 Liberty Belle
> 304 Judomaster
> 308 Sandman
> 312 Atom (v2)
> 323 Firebrand II
> 327 Fury
> 328 Starman
> 337 Hawkwoman
> 341 Hawkman
> 348 Commander Steel
> 363 Shining Knight
> 415 Robotman
> 497 Dr Fate (v1)
> 526 Superman (v1)
> 558 Uncle Sam
> 695 Flash
> 695 Superman (v2)
> 720 Johnny Quick
>1164 Dr Fate (v2)
>1497 Spectre
>
>Avengers
>
> 314 Falcon
> 322 Hawkeye
> 337 Mockingbird
> 344 Scarlet Witch
> 378 Tigra
> 385 Wasp
> 399 Black Knight
> 416 Black Panther
> 449 Black Widow
> 496 Yellowjacket
> 505 Jocasta
> 518 Quicksilver
> 545 Sif
> 579 She_hulk
> 609 Captain America
> 640 Starfox
> 727 Wonderman
> 777 Vision
> 778 Hercules
> 833 Iron_man
>1217 Thor
>
>Fantastic Four
>
> 635 Thing
> 645 Invisible Woman
> 697 Mr Fantastic
> 787 Human Torch
>
>Frightful Four/Fearsome Five
>
> 257 Mammoth
> 272 Medusa
> 290 Gizmo
> 368 Dr Light
> 395 Shimmer
> 436 Trapster
> 442 Wizard
> 578 Psimon
> 607 Sandman
> 631 Brute
>
>Hamner's Mercenaries
>
> 181 Discus
> 181 Stiletto
> 271 Boomerang
> 276 Blizzard
> 286 Constrictor
> 294 Bluestreak
> 318 Blacklash
> 367 Porcupine
> 469 Force
> 493 Spymaster
>
>Infinity Inc
>
> 214 Dr Midnight
> 232 Hourman
> 254 Wildcat II
> 261 Brainwave Jr
> 325 Silver Scarab
> 332 Mr Bones
> 369 Fury
> 372 Nuklon
> 372 Star Spangled Kid
> 374 Northwind
> 401 Obsidian
> 476 Jade
>
>Justice League of America
>
> 292 Ice
> 325 Green Arrow
> 380 Blue Beetle
> 390 Hawkwoman
> 399 Hawkman
> 401 Black Canary
> 408 Fire
> 423 Rocket Red
> 482 Aquaman
> 513 Dr Light
> 535 Mr Miracle
> 546 Batman
> 571 Elongated Man
> 628 Power Girl
> 752 Wonder Woman
> 758 Maxima
> 827 Flash
>1055 Martian Manhunter
>1661 Superman
>
>Legion of Galactic Guardians (Amalgam)
>
> 374 Spider Boy
> 386 Invisible Girl
> 395 Phantom Cat
> 480 Vance Cosmic
> 488 Sparkler
> 496 Phoenetix
> 518 Lady Bug
> 533 Lectron
> 547 Mass
> 573 Living Colossus
> 585 Martinex 5
> 621 Psi-Girl
> 662 Darkstar
> 816 Chamelion
> 846 Xcel
>1088 Nucleus
>1151 Myriad
>
>Legion of Superheroes
>
> 217 Matter Eater Lad
> 262 Invisible Kid II
> 355 Magnetic Lad
> 356 Bouncing Boy
> 387 Invisible Kid
> 395 Phantom Girl
> 405 Star Boy
> 414 Atmos
> 423 Lightning Lad
> 429 Lightning Lass
> 434 Polar Boy
> 439 Tellus
> 439 Tyroc
> 441 Dream Girl
> 442 Duo Damsel
> 480 Cosmic Boy
> 496 Shadow Lass
> 498 Chemical King
> 504 Sun Boy
> 539 Karate Kid
> 545 Kent Shakespeare
> 546 Timber Wolf
> 548 Ferro Lad
> 573 Colossal Boy
> 589 Braniac-5
> 631 White Witch
> 661 Saturn Girl
> 705 Dawnstar
> 707 Blok
> 738 Sensor Girl
> 752 Ultra Boy
> 810 Chamelion Boy
> 905 Shrinking Violet
>1088 Element Lad
>1213 Wildfire
>1583 Superboy
>1617 Mon El
>1650 Supergirl
>
>Legion of Super Villains
>
> 85 Ron Karr
> 148 Tarik
> 195 Spider Girl
> 203 Radiation Roy
> 271 Hunter
> 282 Mist Master
> 330 Saturn Queen
> 350 Lightning Lord
> 351 Esper Lass
> 358 Magno Lad
> 367 Silver Slasher
> 374 Titania (LSV)
> 397 Chameleon Chief
> 403 Tyr
> 448 Sun Emperor
> 557 Lazon
> 615 Micro Lad
> 642 Cosmic King
> 901 Nuetrax
>1312 Ol Vir
>
>Magneto and the Metal Men (Amalgam)
>
> 248 Vance Cosmic
> 250 Bismuth
> 256 Iron
> 269 Black Vulture
> 270 Antimony
> 277 Nickel
> 279 Kultron
> 308 Deathborg
> 351 Soniklaw
> 354 Cobalt
> 438 Magneto
>
>Marvel Misc
>
> 227 Angar
> 261 Aguila
> 267 Batroc
> 313 American Eagle
> 343 Ant Man
> 363 Armadillo
> 386 Arabian Knight
> 408 Arkon
> 472 Attuma
> 552 Abomination
> 629 Annihilus
> 679 Blaastar
> 694 Spider Man
> 707 Captain Marvel
> 777 Ares
>1168 Beta Ray Bill
>
>Masters of Evil
>
> 198 Egghead
> 226 Melter
> 248 Piledriver
> 248 Thunderball
> 249 Bulldozer
> 284 Shocker
> 296 Screaming Mimi
> 333 Scorpion
> 349 Titania
> 358 Yellowjacket
> 362 Wrecker (v2)
> 365 Black Knight 2
> 368 Beetle
> 372 Fixer
> 398 Baron Zemo 2
> 422 Baron Zemo 1
> 423 Tiger Shark
> 429 Wrecker (v1)
> 445 Mr Hyde
> 486 Blackout
> 526 Whirlwind
> 582 Radioactive Man
> 592 Grey Gargoyle
> 617 Moonstone
> 686 Executioner
> 690 Goliath
> 884 Klaw
> 907 Enchantress
>1044 Absorbing Man
>
>Serpent Society
>
> 138 Cottonmouth
> 179 Coachwhip
> 218 Boomslang
> 232 Bushmaster
> 246 Rock Python
> 253 Sidewinder
> 261 Puff Adder
> 276 Diamondback
> 290 Anaconda
> 292 Black Racer
> 293 Rattler
> 297 Asp
> 315 Diamondback (Post SSS)
> 321 Death Adder
> 395 Cobra
>
>X-Men
>
> 320 Boom Boom
> 349 Domino
> 351 Shatterstar
> 362 Shadowcat
> 372 Warpath
> 410 Havok
> 421 Sunspot
> 427 Psylocke
> 437 Beast
> 450 Siryn
> 466 Sunfire
> 472 Nightcrawler
> 479 Cannonball
> 490 Marvel Girl
> 511 Banshee
> 542 Archangel
> 550 Cyclops
> 557 Colossus
> 637 Cable
> 710 Prof X
> 713 Wolverine
> 793 Storm
>
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Sat, 04 Oct 1997 01:53:03 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Thunderbolts Write-ups?
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Did anyone do these? It's quite possibly my most fav book, and I've
thought about it myself. Of course, I'd probably just modify Sam Bell's
stuff... or other stuff that had been done. Use the tools before you, and all.
- Jerry
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From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 14:24:22 -0700
X-To: hero-l@october.com
Subject: Re: Comic and HERO conversion
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I've posted them all to this group, and many are available on various websites.
I also mail them out to anyone who requests them.
-Sam
-> From chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 3 12:02:28 1997
->
->
->
-> Have you published these on a website or as a posting?
-> ----
-> From: Sam Bell <Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM>
-> To: champ-l@omg.org
-> Date: 03 October 1997 01:04
-> Subject: Re: Comic and HERO conversion
->
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> >I have converted the following:
-> >
-> >(the numbers on the left are point totals)
-> >
-> >All Star Squadron
-> >
-> > 143 Wing
-> > 145 Sandy
-> > 153 Tiger
-> > 228 Atom (v1)
-> > 229 Amazingman
-> > 229 Wildcat
-> > 239 Hourman
-> > 242 Tarantula
-> > 271 Dr Midnite
-> > 276 Airwave
-> > 279 Iron Munro
-> > 280 Crimson Avenger
-> > 290 Liberty Belle
-> > 304 Judomaster
-> > 308 Sandman
-> > 312 Atom (v2)
-> > 323 Firebrand II
-> > 327 Fury
-> > 328 Starman
-> > 337 Hawkwoman
-> > 341 Hawkman
-> > 348 Commander Steel
-> > 363 Shining Knight
-> > 415 Robotman
-> > 497 Dr Fate (v1)
-> > 526 Superman (v1)
-> > 558 Uncle Sam
-> > 695 Flash
-> > 695 Superman (v2)
-> > 720 Johnny Quick
-> >1164 Dr Fate (v2)
-> >1497 Spectre
-> >
-> >Avengers
-> >
-> > 314 Falcon
-> > 322 Hawkeye
-> > 337 Mockingbird
-> > 344 Scarlet Witch
-> > 378 Tigra
-> > 385 Wasp
-> > 399 Black Knight
-> > 416 Black Panther
-> > 449 Black Widow
-> > 496 Yellowjacket
-> > 505 Jocasta
-> > 518 Quicksilver
-> > 545 Sif
-> > 579 She_hulk
-> > 609 Captain America
-> > 640 Starfox
-> > 727 Wonderman
-> > 777 Vision
-> > 778 Hercules
-> > 833 Iron_man
-> >1217 Thor
-> >
-> >Fantastic Four
-> >
-> > 635 Thing
-> > 645 Invisible Woman
-> > 697 Mr Fantastic
-> > 787 Human Torch
-> >
-> >Frightful Four/Fearsome Five
-> >
-> > 257 Mammoth
-> > 272 Medusa
-> > 290 Gizmo
-> > 368 Dr Light
-> > 395 Shimmer
-> > 436 Trapster
-> > 442 Wizard
-> > 578 Psimon
-> > 607 Sandman
-> > 631 Brute
-> >
-> >Hamner's Mercenaries
-> >
-> > 181 Discus
-> > 181 Stiletto
-> > 271 Boomerang
-> > 276 Blizzard
-> > 286 Constrictor
-> > 294 Bluestreak
-> > 318 Blacklash
-> > 367 Porcupine
-> > 469 Force
-> > 493 Spymaster
-> >
-> >Infinity Inc
-> >
-> > 214 Dr Midnight
-> > 232 Hourman
-> > 254 Wildcat II
-> > 261 Brainwave Jr
-> > 325 Silver Scarab
-> > 332 Mr Bones
-> > 369 Fury
-> > 372 Nuklon
-> > 372 Star Spangled Kid
-> > 374 Northwind
-> > 401 Obsidian
-> > 476 Jade
-> >
-> >Justice League of America
-> >
-> > 292 Ice
-> > 325 Green Arrow
-> > 380 Blue Beetle
-> > 390 Hawkwoman
-> > 399 Hawkman
-> > 401 Black Canary
-> > 408 Fire
-> > 423 Rocket Red
-> > 482 Aquaman
-> > 513 Dr Light
-> > 535 Mr Miracle
-> > 546 Batman
-> > 571 Elongated Man
-> > 628 Power Girl
-> > 752 Wonder Woman
-> > 758 Maxima
-> > 827 Flash
-> >1055 Martian Manhunter
-> >1661 Superman
-> >
-> >Legion of Galactic Guardians (Amalgam)
-> >
-> > 374 Spider Boy
-> > 386 Invisible Girl
-> > 395 Phantom Cat
-> > 480 Vance Cosmic
-> > 488 Sparkler
-> > 496 Phoenetix
-> > 518 Lady Bug
-> > 533 Lectron
-> > 547 Mass
-> > 573 Living Colossus
-> > 585 Martinex 5
-> > 621 Psi-Girl
-> > 662 Darkstar
-> > 816 Chamelion
-> > 846 Xcel
-> >1088 Nucleus
-> >1151 Myriad
-> >
-> >Legion of Superheroes
-> >
-> > 217 Matter Eater Lad
-> > 262 Invisible Kid II
-> > 355 Magnetic Lad
-> > 356 Bouncing Boy
-> > 387 Invisible Kid
-> > 395 Phantom Girl
-> > 405 Star Boy
-> > 414 Atmos
-> > 423 Lightning Lad
-> > 429 Lightning Lass
-> > 434 Polar Boy
-> > 439 Tellus
-> > 439 Tyroc
-> > 441 Dream Girl
-> > 442 Duo Damsel
-> > 480 Cosmic Boy
-> > 496 Shadow Lass
-> > 498 Chemical King
-> > 504 Sun Boy
-> > 539 Karate Kid
-> > 545 Kent Shakespeare
-> > 546 Timber Wolf
-> > 548 Ferro Lad
-> > 573 Colossal Boy
-> > 589 Braniac-5
-> > 631 White Witch
-> > 661 Saturn Girl
-> > 705 Dawnstar
-> > 707 Blok
-> > 738 Sensor Girl
-> > 752 Ultra Boy
-> > 810 Chamelion Boy
-> > 905 Shrinking Violet
-> >1088 Element Lad
-> >1213 Wildfire
-> >1583 Superboy
-> >1617 Mon El
-> >1650 Supergirl
-> >
-> >Legion of Super Villains
-> >
-> > 85 Ron Karr
-> > 148 Tarik
-> > 195 Spider Girl
-> > 203 Radiation Roy
-> > 271 Hunter
-> > 282 Mist Master
-> > 330 Saturn Queen
-> > 350 Lightning Lord
-> > 351 Esper Lass
-> > 358 Magno Lad
-> > 367 Silver Slasher
-> > 374 Titania (LSV)
-> > 397 Chameleon Chief
-> > 403 Tyr
-> > 448 Sun Emperor
-> > 557 Lazon
-> > 615 Micro Lad
-> > 642 Cosmic King
-> > 901 Nuetrax
-> >1312 Ol Vir
-> >
-> >Magneto and the Metal Men (Amalgam)
-> >
-> > 248 Vance Cosmic
-> > 250 Bismuth
-> > 256 Iron
-> > 269 Black Vulture
-> > 270 Antimony
-> > 277 Nickel
-> > 279 Kultron
-> > 308 Deathborg
-> > 351 Soniklaw
-> > 354 Cobalt
-> > 438 Magneto
-> >
-> >Marvel Misc
-> >
-> > 227 Angar
-> > 261 Aguila
-> > 267 Batroc
-> > 313 American Eagle
-> > 343 Ant Man
-> > 363 Armadillo
-> > 386 Arabian Knight
-> > 408 Arkon
-> > 472 Attuma
-> > 552 Abomination
-> > 629 Annihilus
-> > 679 Blaastar
-> > 694 Spider Man
-> > 707 Captain Marvel
-> > 777 Ares
-> >1168 Beta Ray Bill
-> >
-> >Masters of Evil
-> >
-> > 198 Egghead
-> > 226 Melter
-> > 248 Piledriver
-> > 248 Thunderball
-> > 249 Bulldozer
-> > 284 Shocker
-> > 296 Screaming Mimi
-> > 333 Scorpion
-> > 349 Titania
-> > 358 Yellowjacket
-> > 362 Wrecker (v2)
-> > 365 Black Knight 2
-> > 368 Beetle
-> > 372 Fixer
-> > 398 Baron Zemo 2
-> > 422 Baron Zemo 1
-> > 423 Tiger Shark
-> > 429 Wrecker (v1)
-> > 445 Mr Hyde
-> > 486 Blackout
-> > 526 Whirlwind
-> > 582 Radioactive Man
-> > 592 Grey Gargoyle
-> > 617 Moonstone
-> > 686 Executioner
-> > 690 Goliath
-> > 884 Klaw
-> > 907 Enchantress
-> >1044 Absorbing Man
-> >
-> >Serpent Society
-> >
-> > 138 Cottonmouth
-> > 179 Coachwhip
-> > 218 Boomslang
-> > 232 Bushmaster
-> > 246 Rock Python
-> > 253 Sidewinder
-> > 261 Puff Adder
-> > 276 Diamondback
-> > 290 Anaconda
-> > 292 Black Racer
-> > 293 Rattler
-> > 297 Asp
-> > 315 Diamondback (Post SSS)
-> > 321 Death Adder
-> > 395 Cobra
-> >
-> >X-Men
-> >
-> > 320 Boom Boom
-> > 349 Domino
-> > 351 Shatterstar
-> > 362 Shadowcat
-> > 372 Warpath
-> > 410 Havok
-> > 421 Sunspot
-> > 427 Psylocke
-> > 437 Beast
-> > 450 Siryn
-> > 466 Sunfire
-> > 472 Nightcrawler
-> > 479 Cannonball
-> > 490 Marvel Girl
-> > 511 Banshee
-> > 542 Archangel
-> > 550 Cyclops
-> > 557 Colossus
-> > 637 Cable
-> > 710 Prof X
-> > 713 Wolverine
-> > 793 Storm
-> >
->
->
->
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"cptspith@teleport.com\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 97 23:48:17
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
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On Thu, 02 Oct 1997 03:32:23 -0700, Captain Spith wrote:
>I've got a query to all who have GMed out there about a player
>thing....
>
> Has anyone had a player accuse them of having a 'moral agenda' in
>their style?
>(Here comes the obligatory anecdote/example...)
>
> I was running a game in which The PC's encountered aliens who were
>doing medical experiments on humans. When accused of being immoral (or
>something akin to that) by one of the PCs, the alien spokes person
>brought up humans' experiments on monkeys, bunnies, dogs, etc. as
>analogous.
> Well, one of my players at a later date accused me of trying to put
>forth my own views on animal experimentation. He also mentioned some
>other event in the campaign as another example of 'working my own
>agenda' but I can't recall what it was at this time.
>
> As I see it, a GM has to make some assumptions about what the players
>will consider somewhere between 'evil' and 'unacceptable', and this
>would generally require some sort of assumed 'moral' stance... Has
>anyone else had this happen?
Aside from the question, 'Did you actually have such an agenda?',
congratulations! You actually made them think.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 17:38:37 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Vehicles and bases
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 09:10 AM 10/3/97 -0700, Brian Wong wrote:
>>
>> At 12:00 AM 10/3/97 -0400, PopTholian@aol.com wrote:
>> >Destroyed Vehicles, Bases, and Duplicates and Foci
>> >can only return no more quickly than it would take to get the
>> >equivalent Body back via natural healing.
>>
>> This makes sense to me.
>> But how much is the equivalent BODY?
>> Offhand, I'd say 1 BODY/2 points for Dupes, 1 BODY/5 points for other
>> stuff, but does anybody have any other ideas?
>
> It seems to preset for my tastes though. I would make such a thing
>into a scenerio or subplot, and let them get it back at the resolution of
such..
Oh, I agree with that. I'd just use the Recovery thing as a general
guideline, for *roughly* how long it takes to rebuild the base or vehicle,
train the follower, or whatever.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 21:23:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com>
Subject: CHAR: Sonnet
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SONNET
Designers Notes:
Sonnet (aka Sonnet Barje) is found in the anime OVA _Blue Sonnet_. While
not a great anime series in technical terms (the animation is decidedly
average), the storyline is chock full of all sorts of cool ideas just
waiting to be borrowed by a plot hungry GM. Megalomaniacal scientists,
cyborgs, faceless and uncaring corporations, espers, a secret society bent
on world domination, psychokinetics, bizarre superweapons, hidden
laboratories, foul experiments, a young girl with scarcely controllable
powers... _Blue Sonnet_ has it all.
Sonnet herself is an esper, with powerful psychokinetic powers. If I've
figured out the opening credits, Sonnet grew up on the streets, living in
the slums. Her telekinetic powers manifested at an early age, usually
with unpredictably and destructive results. At one point she blasts a man
trying to forcibly have sex with her into a bloody smear, and a second
scene shows her presumably reducing an entire bus to a pile of scrap. At
some point she is found by a Dr. Merikus, who takes her and rebuilds her
as a powerful cyborg, turning her into a warrior for the secret
organization known as Talon.
Talon, like many other secret organizations, is bent on world domination.
Supposedly they want to remodel society into a perfect utopia, free from
want, but somehow I doubt that. Members of Talon, and Dr. Merikus in
particular, are very cold when dealing with anyone who crosses them, and
will willingly eliminate anyone who gets in their way. Their economic and
military might is considerable, well hidden behind numerous legitimate
corporations.
Description:
Sonnet is of above average height, with a slim, almost athletic build.
She is an American, with blue eyes and *long* platinum blonde hair that
falls to her knees. Normally, she dresses in somewhat formal clothing, or
her school uniform. If operating as 'Sonnet', agent of Talon, she dresses
in a form-fitting bodysuit with a dark blue torso, light blue arms and
leg, elbow-length white gloves and matching knee-length white boots.
Occasionally she wears a tan western-styled 'duster' over this.
Powers Notes:
Sonnet has a number of very potent abilities, both from her cybernetically
enhanced body and from her impressive psychokinetic powers. The opening
of _Blue Sonnet_ shows her engaged in a field test with three tanks and an
attack helicopter, which gives on a good idea of her physical prowess.
During the course of the fight, Sonnet bends a tank barrel in half with
one hand, physically stops another in it's tracks, topples yet another
with her telekinesis, ripped the tread from one tank, bounces shells from
the chopper's chain gun and tosses the tank track through the chopper.
These abilities were used as the basis for most of Sonnet's physical
characteristics.
Later, Sonnet displays some impressive psychokinetic powers. She rips a
neon sign off the side of a building, tosses a Formula 1 car about and
runs fast enough to catch up with a motorcycle traveling close to 160 kph.
When using her telekinetic powers, Sonnet displays no visual effects
(aside from an occasional blue flare from her eyes). She is also quite
capable of using her powers from behind solid barriers. For example, she
rips down the neon sign while seated inside a limo with all the windows
rolled up, and swats the Formula 1 across a racetrack while seated inside
a luxury 'skybox'. Her telekinesis is also powerful enough to allow her
to 'puppet' about a target (a school nurse), eventually throwing the woman
of the roof of a school (hence, the Fine Work on her TK).
Sonnet's other psychokinetic powers are pretty standard for the genre.
She generates intense bolts of force (appearing as bright blue blasts),
and can collapse vehicles and the like with a glance, creates intense
force fields to deflect others attacks, and if hard pressed can generate a
virtually impenetrable wall of psychic force. She also exhibits two
slightly unusual powers, one is some form of 'electrical shock' (which
seems out of place with her other powers), the other is the ability to
generate a low-level force field over other people (sufficent to stop
small arms fire, well... mostly).
Finally, as with almost all other psychokinetics in the anime/manga genre,
Sonnet generates minor damaging effects to her enviroment. For example,
when using her powers to disrupt the Formula 1 race, Sonnet's TK fractures
a nearby window.
As a cybrog, Sonnet has a number of additional powers. She is immensely
strong and very fast and has cybernetically augmented eyes with telephoto
lenses. I gave her such abilities as Immunity to Disease, Absolute Time
Sense, Bump of Direction and Lightning Calculator because they seemed to
make sense for a cyborg.
Sonnet's skills are based of things shown directly in the anime series. I
can only presume that she might have other skils and knowledges.
Disadvantages Notes:
Sonnet is a very beautiful women, even if she is only 17 years old. As a
cyborg, her true nature would be instantly revealed by x-ray vision or a
basic medical examination. Sonnet's skin can be opened up, both along her
front and back, baring her internal electronics.
Sonnet's nature means that she requires very specific medical aid. Anyone
trying a Paramedic roll on her should take serious minuses unless they
know what they are dealing with (and have the right tools). Also, Sonnet
suffers from energy problems. Although she has a great deal of END, she
has a very low REC and if she expends a great deal of END, she might
overheat and suffer from a system shutdown.
Sonnet (at the moment) is *very* loyal to Talon. Although she expresses
doubts about some of the actions required of her by Dr. Merikus, she does
follow through with her required duties. She expression the opinion that
she will kill her target and anyone associated with the target if needed.
She tries to remain emotionless about everything as well (since Dr.
Merikus tells her that a proper warrior of talon doesn't show emotion),
but doesn't always succeed. Sonnet is starting to doubt her Talon
conditioning, and as stated before, has begun to question the actions
required of her.
Finally, Sonnet can suffer from serious physical health problems is
exposed to intense positive emotions. Such emotions can burn out her
emotional inhibitor, causing her to pass out and effectively shutdown.
The Character:
STAT VAL COST
Str 60 50
Dex 21 33
Con 25 30
Body 15 10
Int 25 15
Ego 20 20
Pre 20 10
Com 22 6
PD 15 3
ED 12 7
Spd 5 19
Rec 10 -14
End 100 25
Stun 60 2
Char Total 216
Power Total 477
Total Cost 688
COST POWERS & SKILLS
225 Multipower: Esper/Psychokinetic Powers
19 m 15d6EB (physical), 1/2 END, END 4
7 m 6d6 EB (electrical shock), Invisible Power Effects - Sight,
No KB, END 4
11 m 5d6 RKA, Invisible Power Effects - Sight, Only vs
Rigid/Inanimate materials (-1), END 11
45 m 60 STR Telekinesis with Fine Work, Indirect (+1/2), Invisible
Power Effects - Sight, 1/2 END, END 11
12 m 20 DEF Force Field, Invisible Power Effects - Sight, END 6
6 m 12 DEF Force Field, Invisible Power Effects - Sight, Usable by
two others, at range (+1), Sonnet cannot use this slot on
herself (-1), END 6
8 u 25 DEF Force Wall, No Range, Lockout, END 12
8 m Running: +21" (27"/54"), END 5
10 Side Effects: 1d6 RKA, Penetrating, Radius of Effect, 0 END
Invisible Power Effects - Sight, No Range, No Conscious Control,
Linked to Esper/Psychokinetic Multipower, Only vs Rigid/Inanimate
materials (-1)
3 Flash Defense: 5 DEF, IAF: Tinted Eye Shield
3 Life Support: Immune to Disease
6 Mental Defense: 10 DEF
3 Mental Awareness 14-
9 Telescopic Sense: +6 Range Mod with sight (cyber-modified eyes)
3 Absolute Time Sense
3 Bump of Direction
3 Lightning Calculator
3 Acrobatics 13-
3 Acting 13-
3 High Society 13-
3 KS: Sports (INT) 13-
3 KS: Piano (INT) 13-
2 KS: Talon 11-
3 PS: Tennis (DEX) 13-
3 PS: Pianist (DEX) 13-
3 SC: Mathmatics 13-
3 Seduction 13-
7 Shadowing 13-
3 Stealth 13-
3 Streetwise 13-
3 Survival: Street 11-
3 Tactics 13-
18 Lang: Catonese, French, English (native), German, Japanese,
Russian, Spanish All fluent with literacy
3 Linguist
24 CSL: +3 with Combat
Disadvantages
100 Base
15 DF: Platinum-haired Beauty
10 DF: Cyborg
10 Phys: Requires Specialized Medical Attention
15 Phys: Suffers from power and overheating problems
20 Psych: Loyal to Talon
15 Psych: Tries to remain emotionless
10 Psych: Suffers from bouts of compassion
15 SID: Sonnet Barje
25 Susceptible: Strong (positive) Emotions, 2d6 END Drain/Phase
15 Watched: Talon (more pow, NCI) 14-
443 Warrior of Talon Bonus
(Sonnet created by Masahiro Shibata, character sheet created by Michael
Surbrook)
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 23:36:26 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Fri, 3 Oct 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> >Ever hear of "Flight of the Valkyries", the old CHAMPIONS module
> >where the only way to "win" was to let the Holocaust happen? Brrrr.
>
> Which is not all that far off the classic Star Trek episode "The City on
> the Edge of Forever," where the heroic *goal* was to *make sure* it
> happened.
As I remember it, the woman's life or death would only affect the US's
entry into World War II. While I realize the standard American view is
that the only events which actually happen are those that involve the
US:), there is a difference there.
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 23:40:29 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: Time Travel and Time scales (fuzion)
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On Thu, 2 Oct 1997, Triaxm'l wrote:
> Which brings up the next part of my question, the time chart only goes up
> to a day.
No it doesn't. The copy on BBB p 18 goes up to a year; the one on p 140
goes up to a century.
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 23:54:52 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: Reduced END Question
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On 29 Sep 1997, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> TB> Plus, the BBB specifically says that it does in the section where
> TB> Casual STR is defined (p 172, top of second column). I don't
> TB> particularly agree with that myself, though.
>
> Like I said, *everything* costs Endurance unless otherwise noted.
>
> Unless you want 100-Strength to be able to throw 10d6 punches without
> spending any END.
A punch is an attack action, and as such is a deliberate action by
the character; this should always require END. But Casual STR represents
what the character can do "without even trying"; it seems silly to me that
this would cost END.
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Sat, 04 Oct 1997 00:39:31 -0500
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Reduced END Question
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 11:54 PM 10/3/97 -0300, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>A punch is an attack action, and as such is a deliberate action by
>the character; this should always require END. But Casual STR represents
>what the character can do "without even trying"; it seems silly to me that
>this would cost END.
There's a lot of silliness already floating around the game system. :/
Since any END cost of Casual STR will often be superseded by "real" STR
actions (I break out of the Entangle using my Casual STR because I want to
do something ELSE with my full STR, et al.), it doesn't really bother me.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely. |
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X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Sat, 04 Oct 1997 00:39:33 -0500
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Reduced END Question
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 08:58 AM 10/4/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>Use of casual Strength is still an exertion of Strength, regardless of how
>much Strength is used. And, as mentioned, unless otherwise specified,
>everything a character does requires END. Use of casual Strength does not
>have such mention, therefore it does require END.
"It's worse than that, Jim ..."
Actually, the BBB does havea "specific mention". Namely, it explicitly says
Casual STR *does* cost END. (Although you ignore it if you're going to be
using your full STR later, since you only pay for STR once in any Phase).
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely. |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Reduced END Question
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 04 Oct 1997 08:58:11 -0400
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e.le.ngos
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "TB" == Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> writes:
TB> A punch is an attack action, and as such is a deliberate action by the
TB> character; this should always require END. But Casual STR represents
TB> what the character can do "without even trying"; it seems silly to me
TB> that this would cost END.
Use of casual Strength is still an exertion of Strength, regardless of how
much Strength is used. And, as mentioned, unless otherwise specified,
everything a character does requires END. Use of casual Strength does not
have such mention, therefore it does require END.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover
\ head.
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 97 10:36:17 -0400
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
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Trevor Barrie tbarrie@ibm.net 10/3/97 10:36 PM
>On Fri, 3 Oct 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>> >Ever hear of "Flight of the Valkyries", the old CHAMPIONS module
>> >where the only way to "win" was to let the Holocaust happen? Brrrr.
>>
>> Which is not all that far off the classic Star Trek episode "The City on
>> the Edge of Forever," where the heroic *goal* was to *make sure* it
>> happened.
>
>As I remember it, the woman's life or death would only affect the US's
>entry into World War II. While I realize the standard American view is
>that the only events which actually happen are those that involve the
>US:), there is a difference there.
>
The storyline was it would result in a delay in the U.S. entry into the
war,
allowing the Nazi's to complete their heavy water experiments and build
neuclier weapons first. As a result, Hitler defeated the allies and the
"lesser" races all became subject slaves or were killed off entirely.
Given that, saying the "heroic *goal* was to *make sure* it happened."
isn't really too far off.
BTW, have to say this really was a "classic" episode in every sense.
PAX,
John
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Sat, 04 Oct 1997 09:07:17 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: GM question #1
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I find it kinda funny that someone would accuse the GM of having a moral agenda.
I DO have a moral agenda in my games, Im always trying to get the players to
be better people, Im a Christian and that comes through in my games, but no
one has complained yet. I even did a big game on how the abortions at the
local hospital were summoning a spirit of evil, heh heh nuff said :)
----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 12:26:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: GM question #1
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On Sat, 4 Oct 1997, Christopher Taylor wrote:
> I find it kinda funny that someone would accuse the GM of having a moral agenda.
>
> I DO have a moral agenda in my games, Im always trying to get the players to
> be better people, Im a Christian and that comes through in my games, but no
> one has complained yet. I even did a big game on how the abortions at the
> local hospital were summoning a spirit of evil, heh heh nuff said :)
I think I would find such a plot pretty offensive. Such heavy handed use
of one's personal beliefs should be avoided in a game. In my opinion, a
RPG is there to create a fun environment for everyone, not to push
anyone's beliefs on others. Creating situations that are not black and
white in the outlook of who is good and who is eveil is one things (as are
certain forms of moral quandries) but your plot is to much. I mena, are
you going to tel me that in your world it would be wrong for a superhero
to try and stop the anit-abortion activitsts who feel it is proper to blow
up clinics and shoot doctors?
Many years ago a local GM< set up a plot where the party went back in time
to WWII. Along the way, the team ended up in England, and were asked to
travel to Germany and try and kill Hitler. The game stopped right
there and dissolved into an hours long argument over whether or not it was
right to go and do such a thing. I ended up telling the GM that I would
be leaving the game until the adventure was over, and the reaction for
other players was strong enough that the idea was scrapped and the
sequence ended quickly. (I also thought the entire WWII situation was
being presented to light-hearted and white-washed, but that's just me.)
I think a GM should try and be neutral in his presentation of adventures,
or, at least, be aware of what will and will not go over well with his
PCs. The main idea is for people to enjoy themselves, not to push any one
ideaology.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
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From: "Jim Dickinson" <champion@cyberhighway.net>
Subject: Re: GM question #1
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 10:27:12 -0700
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>I think I would find such a plot pretty offensive. Such heavy handed use
>of one's personal beliefs should be avoided in a game.
This discussion seems like it's getting pretty silly to me. There are
OFTEN, but not always, personal beliefs and "agendas" buried in plotlines of
games, movies, TV Shows, and books. I found it amusing to a degree that
Leonard Nemoy's Star Trek movie was an overglorified "Save the Wales"
plotline, and then again, I also found it something I was rolling my eyes
over. But am I "offended?" Naw.
Perhaps my personal beliefs clash with the notion that any sort of magic
could be used "benevolently" because Magic, perhaps to me, is inherently
evil, because perhaps my Christian beliefs are very clear on that. I should
be offended then by the hidden "devilish" agenda of nearly ANY fantasy game
I might join (and actually many Champions games) because supposedly Magic is
presented as being a "good" power (aka White Magic).
And we won't even get into SPAWN...you know...the "good guy" from Hell.
>In my opinion, a
>RPG is there to create a fun environment for everyone, not to push
>anyone's beliefs on others.
I think it is interesting when people feel like beliefs are being "pushed"
on them from within a passive plotline. Players should be playing a ROLE,
and should be PLAYING out that role the way the PC would react, etc, etc.
It's not like the GM came out and said, "OK, in my game, here is the what
you need to accept as truth if you want to play..."
>Many years ago a local GM< set up a plot where the party went back in time
>to WWII. Along the way, the team ended up in England, and were asked to
>travel to Germany and try and kill Hitler. The game stopped right
>there and dissolved into an hours long argument over whether or not it was
>right to go and do such a thing.
I think that this is sad. Now, I wasn't there, so maybe there are some
details that you left out, but I personally would have found this plot
particularly intriguing. It would have likely degenerated into heated
discussion...but it would have likely been "in character" as we role-play
out the possibilities.
>I ended up telling the GM that I would
>be leaving the game until the adventure was over, and the reaction for
>other players was strong enough that the idea was scrapped and the
>sequence ended quickly.
You see, here you and I are very different. The only time in memory that I
have ever told the GM I would be bowing out of a game until things changes
was a loooong time ago when an inexperienced GM went on a power trip and
created a umpteen-thousand point villain that could not be stopped. We
tried everything we could think of to stop this thing, but everything ended
up comkpletely futile. After a full 4 hours of game time trying everything
we could possibly think of, I was exhausted and exasperated, and I told the
GM I wasn't going to play because it was very clear there was no way to
defeat, or even thwart, this villain in any way. The villain would be free
to do as he pleased, so there was no point in bothering to defeat him. The
GM agreed that he had tried to build a villain that could not be stopped,
and apologized for creating the "no win" scenario. And the game ended.
> (I also thought the entire WWII situation was
>being presented to light-hearted and white-washed, but that's just me.)
I agree, though, that if the game is to take a serious tone such as the
possible prevention of the loss of millions of lives, that the game should
not be light-hearted. But it would be fascinating to try to simulate this
possibility of putting super-heroes in the position to slay this greatly
evil man. Wow, it would be so hard to argue against it -- saying that this
would clearly change the timeline, and disrupt the future as we know
it...yadda, yadda...
>
>I think a GM should try and be neutral in his presentation of adventures,
>or, at least, be aware of what will and will not go over well with his
>PCs. The main idea is for people to enjoy themselves, not to push any one
>ideaology.
GMs aren't going for Nelson Ratings. But in a way, I agree with you.
However, Christopher was clearly GMing for others that likely felt that evil
spirits and abortions might be related somehow...enough that none of his
players got up and walked out of the game, eh?
Subject: Re: Reduced END Question
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 97 14:07:07 -0400
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Vox Ludator! ludator@mail.softfarm.com 10/4/97 1:39 AM
>At 08:58 AM 10/4/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>Use of casual Strength is still an exertion of Strength, regardless of how
>>much Strength is used. And, as mentioned, unless otherwise specified,
>>everything a character does requires END. Use of casual Strength does not
>>have such mention, therefore it does require END.
>
>"It's worse than that, Jim ..."
>
>Actually, the BBB does havea "specific mention". Namely, it explicitly says
>Casual STR *does* cost END. (Although you ignore it if you're going to be
>using your full STR later, since you only pay for STR once in any Phase).
Great, a BBB answer (though I'd already pretty much accepted this as the
correct
ruling)! can you site the page/section please... :)
PAX,
John
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Sat, 04 Oct 1997 14:32:34 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: GM question #1
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>> I find it kinda funny that someone would accuse the GM of having a moral
agenda.
>>
>> I DO have a moral agenda in my games, Im always trying to get the players to
>> be better people, Im a Christian and that comes through in my games, but no
>> one has complained yet. I even did a big game on how the abortions at the
>> local hospital were summoning a spirit of evil, heh heh nuff said :)
>
>I think I would find such a plot pretty offensive. Such heavy handed use
>of one's personal beliefs should be avoided in a game.
Yeah I was misleading in that post. The problem was the creature, not the
abortions neccessarily. It was simply trapped under where the hospital was
hundreds of years ago by a shaman, and was set free by the deaths at the
hospital. It wouldnt have shown up so soon if there hadnt been the
abortions the increasing the numbers by so much.
>I mena, are you going to tel me that in your world it would be wrong for a
>superhero to try and stop the anit-abortion activitsts who feel it is
proper to >blow up clinics and shoot doctors?
Tisk tisk :) Thats moral reductionism, I wasnt trying to make them anti
abortion, I was just using a real world issue to create a nice moral dilemma.
Consider the other plot I used where in an inner city Detroit hospital, they
were selling organs from live donors (like a kidney, part of a liver, etc),
and using the proceeds to stay open and keep treating the people too poor to
pay...and paying the donors a grand a pop also. The heroes had to decide if
they wanted to stop this process and close the hospital, or let it go on...
----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 11:19 AM