Week Ending November 8, 1997
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 14:23:57 +1000
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Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
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At 02:00 AM 11/1/97 +0500, you wrote:
>I don't see how inertia is relative movement... and while I agree that DEX
>and SPD represent manueverability to an extent (esp. DEX), I'm not sure how
>it covers inertial damping. Could you explain?
if a craft's occupants are more vunerable to inertia, the ship must move
slower as a result. .
>I also could argue that the B5 ships are more manueverable, because they can
>rapidly change trajectories... but I assume they give up speed over a
>comparable technological equivalent true fighter (like the X-Wing). Just
>like comparing a Harrier and an F-15. It would also depend on ones
>definition of "manueverable." I also think that X-Wings had to worry about
>g-forces, or they would have an infinitely tight turn mode... if I'm wrong
>on this, I'm sorry, but the same g-forces should apply to either Star Wars
>ships or B5 ships...
>
yup. my statement was based on the assumption that star wars ships all have
inertial dampers (even x-wings)
>- Jerry
>
>
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 14:36:32 +1000
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Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy?
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At 10:09 AM 11/1/97 -0800, you wrote:
>jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
>>
>
>> oh, goody! we're back to spelling! that's SO important!!!!!
>
>Actually, Mr. Jones, spelling is *extremely* important. Spelling,
>grammar and tone are, on the net, the equivalent of a neat personal
>appearance. They form the basis of first impressions, and the are
>generally taken as a reflection of the importance, or lack thereof, that
>you assign to your correspondence. In fact, by compelling your readers
>to guess at your meaning ("Did he mean psychology or physiology?") you
>waste their time, and that is impolite.
>
it's also impolite to act in such a pompous elitets manner over such
a minor point.
>Of course, we all slip up from time to time, and everyone understands the
>occasional foible; however, if a poster routinely misspells words that
>are central to his or her discussion, then it is difficult to take
>whatever that person has to say seriously.
>
.. . and hence it is justified to use it as a reason to act in an adversarial manner?
>I infer that "cqu.edu.au" is either a college (College of Queensland?) or
>a university (Central Queensland University?). I infer from the tenor of
>your posts that you are an underclassman, but you may be a high school
>student taking accelerated courses. I don't know what you intend to do
>with your eventual degree, but whether it is academics, business or
>technology, you will go farther if you learn to spell properly. It
>really doesn't take that much effort to learn, and even most
>people with genuine learning disablities can learn to do it with proper
>guidance.
*sigh* everyone in my area has the same account- the topaz
accout includes normal bachelor students, postgraduates,
PHD's and even some lecturers.
(p.s. the next step in your extremly predictable discource is
to question the quality of my place of study- but over here uni's
are of a uniformly high quality so PPPHHHHTTTTT! :-<~~~)
>
>--
><------------------------------------------------------->
>Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
>Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
>http://www.erols.com/robtwest
>
>
>
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 22:15:33 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Reply-To: rook@infinex.com
Subject: Organizing a Champions Game in San Francisco
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Hello;
On the off chance that there are San Francisco People in here:
I'm organizing a Champions game in San Francisco.
To which effect if anyone here is also a Champions player/GM and
doesn't find a game in San Francisco to be too far away, drop me a
message.
I have one other person so far. We're looking to set up a 'heroic'
game. somewhat more four color than is popular in the SuperHero genre
these days. We're both fans of the Batman Cartoon to give an example. It
has both, Mythic, and Dark elements all in one package.
I'm 26, the other person is 28. To give an idea of ages here. Myself
married, the other person is single. We're looking to put together a
group of mixed gender and ethnicity.
So spouses/S.O.'s are not only welcome but encouraged.
Anyway, if San Francisco isn't too far away, give me a reply and we
can talk about the game. Plan is too hold it on 3 weeknights/month, plus
one weekend day once/month. So 4 games a month.
None of this is as yet set in stone however...
--
Rook
Also known as Arcady on #herochat, #Fuzionchat, #gurps, #V&V,
and #SuperHeroChat in DALnet IRC
Super Hero Links Page:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 01:05:32 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Reply-To: rook@infinex.com
Subject: Doing Rule of X in Hero-4 (Can it be done, and How?)
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Hello;
I've noticed ONE thing that I liked in Fuzion, The Rule of X.
Anybody have any ideas on how we could port this over into Hero-4?
Unlike Fuzion's version, a champs version would have to also consider
things like Desolid or Penetrating...
Here it is below:
THE RULE OF X
This is a very important option for Referees who want more control
over their campaign's growth. The
Rule of X is a simple way to set the overall power of the campaign,
and to keep it at that level.
Simply, the Rule of X limits how powerful characters can start off
at in a campaign. (Well, the GM can
of course break this rule for the Non-Player Characters, but the
players must stick to it.) Here's how it
works.
The value of X depends on the power level you want for the campaign.
For instance, a superhero
campaign might start with the Rule of 20. A character with a STR of
12, and a Reflex of 6, could have no
more than a Skill of 2 with his hand-to-hand attacks (12 + 6 + 2 =
20). A martial artist with 40 Hits and a
Dexterity of 7 could have no more than a 5 Skill with his martial
attacks ([40/5] + 7 + 5 = 20). Some
suggested values for the Rule of X are.
Campaign Style Rule of X
Everyday [realistic]
14
Competent [elite,
semi-realistic.]
16
Heroic [TV action show]
18
Incredible [olympics, action
movie]
20
Legendary [blockbuster action
movie]
22
Superheroic [comic books,
myths]
24
The Rule of X primarily is used to set the initial power level of a
campaign, and is not generally used to
limit characters after their creation (although it's a good idea to
keep it in force all the time when running
superheroic games). Instead, the GM should use the Rule as a guide
for handing out experience or
powerful "goodies"that might unbalance the campaign.
The Rule of X can be changed during the course of a campaign to let
characters become more powerful,
if the GM so desires. This current Rule of X should also be applied
to all new characters entering the
campaign.
--
Rook
Also known as Arcady on #herochat, #Fuzionchat, #gurps, #V&V,
and #SuperHeroChat in DALnet IRC
Super Hero Links Page:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy?
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 01:41:17 -0800
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On Saturday, November 01, 1997 8:08 PM, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
wrote:
<snip>
>
>>Of course, we all slip up from time to time, and everyone
understands the
>>occasional foible; however, if a poster routinely misspells words
that
>>are central to his or her discussion, then it is difficult to take
>>whatever that person has to say seriously.
>>
>
>.. . and hence it is justified to use it as a reason to act in an
adversarial manner?
>
No, and I do apologize if I sounded adversarial. I actually didn't
intend for it to be. I was trying to firmly point out that no one will
take you seriously as an expert at anything academic if you do not
spell it correctly.
I do not wish to sound adversarial about this, but is there a
particular reason you don't use a spellchecker? If it is your
software, then, most likely, you can find a better free one out there.
Filksinger
From: Egyptoid@aol.com
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 05:08:47 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: RE: UAO NND
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>If, as you say, the sun were to be replaced with a black hole of exactly
>equal size, then we would all die anyway due to lack of heat and light.
>Also, unlike our sun, which is constantly losing mass due to the radiant
>energy which it constantly dissipates, a black hole sucks in heat and
Can you scientific types tell me in which issue of Fantastic Four this
subject was shown?
--
Elliott
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 05:10:23 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
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David W Toomey wrote:
>
> > Actually size relative DCV mods is how I've always treated
> >characters
> >as well; Two characters with Growth at different levels interact as if
> >one was normal size and the other had growth equal to the difference
> >between them. (5 levels G. vs. 3 levels G. = 2 levels G. vs. normal).
> >
>
> So, if Joe Normal and Sid Ogre (2 lev Growth) both try to hit Bill the
> Giant (6 lev Growth)
> Joe has a better chance of hitting, all else being equal??
Actually, yes, though at those levels of size variance, the OCV
difference would only be 1, because Bill the Giant is a bit over twice
the size of Sid Ogre, but four times as large as Joe Normal. If DCV
mods from Growth are appropriate at all, then relative size matters. In
a more clear-cut example, wouldn't it make sense that if Sid Ogre was
the same size as Bill the Giant, they would interact as if they were
normal size, but Joe normal would still benefit from the DCV mods on
Bill? Or would Sid, being the same size, be at +4 to hit Bill, even
though he would _not_ have any bonus if both were normal size, but
unchanged relative to each other?
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 06:24:20 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
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At 12:57 PM 11/1/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>On Sat, 1 Nov 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>> >Dave Mattingly already brought up the SpideyMobile, ferchrissakes...
>> >(Clinging).
>>
>> Ground vehicles in fiction have been known to drive straight up walls.
>> Any examples escape me at the moment, but I'm sure I've seen it done....
>
>At the moment, I am tinkering with adaptions of the cast of Masamune
>Shirow's "Dominion". One of the write-ups is for 'Bonaparte', a
>police department mini-tank. Anyway, Bonaparte has demonstrated the
>ability to drive up the side of a building, provided there are two walls
>close enough for it to fit between. It has also driven up inside an
>elevator shaft.
While driving around yesterday, I also thought about Men In Black.
(Just make sure you have your seat belt fastened!)
>Speaking of TUV, I have always felt that the focus limitaion for equipment
>inside a vehicle to be a bit of a cop-out. Granted, anything I post to
>this list uses such rules (since I'm shooting for 'vanilla' adaptions
>after all), but is an IIF really worth -3/4 on a vehicle? The vehicle
>designs I wrote up for my Kazei Five book (also due to go to Hero Games by
>December 31) dropped Focus limitations for anything that was considered
>internal gear. Extrernal devices still received the standard Focus
>limitations, however.
I'm going to give Focus an extra look over. There may be some reason
for the extra bonus (other than the fact that regular characters can't use
it). Something that comes to mind is that the Focus is subject to both the
standard vehicle damage rules and the Focus damage rules.
>I have also felt an expanded set of vehicle specific limitations would be
>nice. Such ideas as extended start-up time (for certain planes), no easy
>access (like tanks), rare or unusual fuels (like rockets) should be
>discussed.
I have at least a passing discussion of these specific things, and
whatever other vehicle-specific Physical Limitations I could think of.
>And how about better definitions of standard vehicle equipment? Like your
>typcial police car? It has a radio, computer, spotlight, loudpspeaker
>(sometimes), headlights, radar gun, lightbar and siren...
(Someone finally used the word "lightbar." I knew that this was what it
was called, but I couldn't remember it until you said it, Michael.)
>How would one go about defining all of this in Hero terms?
>
>Currently, some of this (spot, headlights nad lights and siren can be
>considered Change Environment (or Images), but some examples of real world
>gear would be nice.
As I look the above list over, I can think of where every bit of
equipment you list is discussed somewhere in the book, either in the
vehicle creation chapter or in the Sourcebook section on sample equipment.
As for the headlights and siren, I treat CE as the "standard" way of
doing it, with Images as an alternate option.
---
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Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 06:27:09 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
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At 01:20 PM 11/1/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>
>Here's anotther tricky vehicle thing that could be addressed: vehicles
>with vehicles. If I want a big starship with smaller shuttlecraft, or even
>just escape pods, do I buy all vessels as separate vehicles, or does the
>starship pay for the shuttles, thereby giving me the 5 for 1 cost break
>twice?
I do have this covered.
Just FYI, you do the latter, because the smaller vehicles (shuttles) are
tied to the larger one.
I also allow the reverse (a group of vehicles paying for a carrier, like
a superher group buying a team vehicle), and I discuss the buying of
elevators as vehicles.
>Also, I'd love to see a consistent way of handling limited fuel. I do fuel
>capacity as a Physical Limitation, myself.
As I think I've mentioned elsewhere (and you probably just hadn't seen
it when you wrote this), I'm handling it as a variation of Dependence.
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Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 06:29:58 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
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At 11:12 PM 10/31/97 -0800, Rook wrote:
>> How about an option of simply adding the number of points spent on
>> Wealth to the number of Everyman points for Normal vehicles? The vehicle
>> would still have to be a reasonably normal one, but it could have some
>> fancy perks like special licenses, a cellular phone, a built-in personal
>> computer, and the like (subject to the GM's approval). That could give a
>> Filthy Rich character a pretty nice limo for 35 points.
>
> I like this idea. Weather or not it gets used, I think it just got
added to
>my games...One more addition: a character withh poverty loses that many
points
>from the base 20
>for the vehicle. So the poor guy ends up driving the old beat up chevy. :)
That addition is already there. Mr. Destitute only gets 10 points for
his Everyman Vehicle (though the cost can come down by taking a lot of
Disadvantages on it).
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Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 06:32:27 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
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At 10:09 PM 10/31/97, qts wrote:
>On Thu, 30 Oct 1997 13:28:50 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>> Here's a special call for help that is usually reserved for the AOL
>>Message Folder and newsgroup folks.
>> I've gotten approval to write The Ultimate Super Vehicle, a book
>>designed to cover everything from the Batmobile to the Zords (and a few
>>things beyond, like the Argo or the Enterprise -- maybe even the Titanic).
>>With a bit of luck, it'll be ready to go out sometime this coming summer.
>
>YES!
>
>Please don't forget things like the Triceratops saddle, or the
>Raptor-drawn chariot, cloud castles on the Fantasy front and Jules
>Verne style spaceships. Oh, and the Nautilus.
On this last one, would the Quarkstar V be close enough?
As for the rest, I will remember to include some kind of notes for
animal-drawn vehicles; after all, one of my source fictions is "King Arthur
and the Knights of Justice."
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Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 06:37:03 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
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At 04:18 PM 11/1/97 -0500, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>>after all), but is an IIF really worth -3/4 on a vehicle? The vehicle
>>designs I wrote up for my Kazei Five book (also due to go to Hero Games by
>>December 31) dropped Focus limitations for anything that was considered
>>internal gear. Extrernal devices still received the standard Focus
>>limitations, however.
>
>Hey, allright! Is that just for evaluation or have they committed to print
yet?
Just BTW, my Dec 31 deadline is for the first draft of TUSV; the final
draft is due by Mar 31. (Though the way things are going I'll probably
beat both deadlines by a far sight.)
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Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 06:46:35 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV (fwd)
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At 03:05 PM 11/1/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>Headlights (and light sources in general) are one of the more awkward
>things to do in Hero. Yes, they should be Change Environment, but that
>gets rather expensive, especially if you want to light up more than one
>hex. (And if your headlights only extend 1 hex, you'd better have an
>awfully good driving roll...) Even making them fragile OAF, they tend to
>cost more than they should. Most published vehicles don't bother listing
>them, tossing them in as a special effect I suppose. I tend to "waste"
>points in building them for my vehicles, but it bugs me when otehr
>characters get them for free. TUSV is a good place to set a precedent, one
>way or the other.
While I do have something on this in here, I'm going to review what I
have based on that center comment about cost.
>And how about heating and air conditioning? What about my pine tree air
>freshener??? And the 1 pip energy KA for the dash lighter????
The first two are very minor applications of Change Environment; the
last one I don't think is even enough to pay 1 point for.
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Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 06:51:09 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV (fwd)
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At 03:35 PM 11/1/97 +0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>If Bob does use Autoduel Champions, he could go with the simplification
>presented in there: they don't add to the cost of the base vehicle. In
>AutoChamps, you purchase your vehicle, and the first things you decide on
>are (if memory serves, or it's close to Car Wars) the body type of the car,
>and then the chassis and suspension. It was specifically stated (either
>here or in Car Wars) that headlights, car radios, and even standard CBs
>didn't cost extra... (On that last one, standard CB-type radios are assumed
>to be in cars bought at dealerships. Long Distance Radios cost, tho.) So,
>this looks like things that are "standard" to all cars are free.
I'm not going to go strictly with ADC rules, but adapt them to the
existing Hero rules as well as I can.
I will have a charge for a CB radio, and come up with something small
for headlights and AM/FM radio (not all vehicles have those, after all). I
think I currently have a full-scale cost for those latter items, and they
should be 1 or at most 2 points.
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Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 06:52:13 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV (fwd)
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At 05:36 PM 11/1/97 -0500, Daniel Pawtowski wrote:
>
> Other things that don't resolve well at the Champs scale: how
>do you represent the off-road capabilities of a station wagon vs.
>a jeep vs a Hummer vs a tank? On the rare occasions it's come up,
>we usually end up saying that a better off-road ability is bought
>as a higher STR for the vehicle and the GM fudges road conditions
>as necessary.
I like the ideas of building Skill Levels vs certain types of terrain
into the vehicle to represent this.
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Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 06:59:16 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV: Mass Combat
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At 01:05 PM 11/1/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>>>2) Multiple vehicles can be run using the same rules as individual
>>>characters, such as a superteam fighting an assault from space.
>>
>> This is as opposed to the existing Mass Combat rules?
>
>I have very little familiarity with the existing Mass Combat rules,
>but I was under the impression that they were mass combat _only_. Your
>character was just part of the mob. I may be remebering an older
>version of those rules. If I am wrong, then I'd better look at them
>again.
>
>At the very least, I've gotten the impression that the characters
>won't be the very distinct and possibly battle changing individual
>that they could be.
Oh, good heavens no! In the existing Mass Combat rules from Fantasy
Hero Companion, Individual characters can lead charges, inspire the troops,
intimidate the enemy, or even attack (and be attacked) directly.
>>>3) You will rarely too many vehicles to use in this fashion, thus
>>>requiring the mass combat rules. Two fleets of eighty vehicles each
>>>can be run as two groups of ten characters, and would be considered
>a
>>>very large battle. Most battles would be much smaller.
>>
>> I think that's supposed to be the point of any Mass Combat system.
>
>Sorry. What I meant was that a battle between two groups of 80
>vehicles is large. I suppose that if you want to lay out very large
>battles you will want the full Mass Combat rules, but if you want
>battles where the character's are a significant part, you will
>frequently need a smaller scale. These rules offered a good one.
OK, I'll try to find it. I looked yesterday at the one place I know of
that has old AC's, and this wasn't there, but hopefully I'll come across it
before this is over (and maybe Bruce will have some input).
>Hero Games still offers old Adventurer's Clubs for sale.
>Unfortunately, of the first ten or so, one is missing- number five I
>believe. I have a strong feeling that's the one it is in- I haven't
>seen that one in years.
Well, at least that gives me a number to shoot for. :-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 07:00:18 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV: Remote Control
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 12:40 PM 11/1/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>> What I'm thinking of for Remote Control is this: The vehicle must have
>> an onboard computer, and the remote control device (whether hand-held,
>> implanted in the brain, or whatever) is done as a radio Mind Link. The
>> control tells the computer what to do, and the computer does it.
>> Since that's a fairly close model of what actually does happen (in a
>> way, even on radio-controlled models), I think it's probably the best.
>
>I like that approach, though you may want to mention that the "computer"
>need not be a literal silicon chip machine, but rather is a reflection of
>some kind of information-processing cabability, whether magical, organic,
>or technological. Remote controlled vehicles, after all, might include the
>Silver Surfer's board, flying carpets, spaceships with organic brains,
>etc. (An organic brain doesn't even have to be sentient - Cordwainer Smith
>had a lot of technology controlled by freeze-dried animal brains.)
Good point; I'll get that in there.
---
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Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 10:14:21 -0500 (EST)
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: ...and then, there was Light.
X-VMS-To: IN%"champ-l@omg.org"
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Light is a psychopathic killer with light based powers.
He can change into 'living light' (represented as Desolidification).
He can attack people while he is desolidified with his lazer
blasts (AP RKA), burn them with but a touch (Damage Shield, HKA),
and fly at great speeds.
I wanted Light to have a particularily nasty attack...
He flies through people... bores through their flesh, going
from one side to the other. I figured to avoid injury to himself
he would be 'living light'-- and his burning touch would do the rest.
Would he be able to do additional damage with a move through if
his Damage Shield, HKA was bought with the +2 advanteg (can affect
physical world) and Desolidification was bought with the -1/2 Limitation
(annot move through solid objects [unless he burns through them])
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 97 16:28:22
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Doing Rule of X in Hero-4 (Can it be done, and How?)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Sun, 02 Nov 1997 01:05:32 -0800, Rook wrote:
>Hello;
> I've noticed ONE thing that I liked in Fuzion, The Rule of X.
>Anybody have any ideas on how we could port this over into Hero-4?
>
> {rule of X snipped}
>
I guess my first question would be "why?". I didn't really understand it's inclusion in
Fuzion and porting over to Hero-4 just confuses me even more. Do you not trust your
players to create reasonable well-balanced characters? If not, why are you playing
with them?
Okay, that was harsh. New players do occasionly have difficulty creating reasonable
characters (with power levels out of whack in both directions). This is why GM's review
for approval all characters before they are played. It only takes a couple of minutes for
someone who knows the system well to determine if a character is out of balance with
their campaign.
Besides, the vast array of power possibilities in Hero-4 make a "rule of X" type of
equation difficult to create, as a simple equation model just doesn't handle the type of
"fuzzy logic" that an actual person looking at the gestalt would employ.
-=>John D.
From: Egyptoid@aol.com
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 11:34:38 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: TUSV - Added features
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> Maybe I will indeed build a "Spook Tank" from the M-1 Abrams in HSA2,
>and stick it in the Sample Characters.
How about vehicles from the movie HEAVY METAL?
Spaceships, VTOL Taxi-cabs, Reentry capable cars, the possessed bomber,
hover-cars, you name it!
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 21:44:26 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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qts wrote:
>>>Please don't forget things like the Triceratops saddle, or the
>>>Raptor-drawn chariot...
>>>
>>Wouldn't the first two be useless w/o write-ups of the Dinos? But I like
>>the point you made... beast-propelled vehicles...
>
>Hehehe! You could also arguably make the Dinos SFX...
>
Good point. But this would work best in a Superheroic game. What about
fantasy/whatever? If they Dinos are SFX, they can't get loose. If you
treat all beast-propelled vehicles as SFX, you can't unhitch your horse from
the wagon and ride it alone (unless the vehicle has a multiform where the
base form is a horse with a Duplication wagon, and the Multiform is a
horse-drawn wagon. hmmm... no, ick.) What about those (Chinese)
human-drawn chariot things? A GUY! is SFX? I don't even know if I'd use
it, but I'd like a rule for someone/thing being able to haul around a
vehicle after them... even if it's just one of my bricks pulling a tank
around, or a Martial Arts master hauling a van across and auditorium by a
rope attached to a pin through the skin in his arm (I can forward the
relevant part of the e-mail where I was invited to this event).
- Jerry
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 12:31:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sat, 1 Nov 1997, John and Ron Prins wrote:
> >after all), but is an IIF really worth -3/4 on a vehicle? The vehicle
> >designs I wrote up for my Kazei Five book (also due to go to Hero Games by
> >December 31) dropped Focus limitations for anything that was considered
> >internal gear. Extrernal devices still received the standard Focus
> >limitations, however.
>
> Hey, allright! Is that just for evaluation or have they committed to print yet?
Evaluation.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 12:44:39 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: ...and then, there was Light.
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On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
> Light is a psychopathic killer with light based powers.
> He can change into 'living light' (represented as Desolidification).
> He can attack people while he is desolidified with his lazer
> blasts (AP RKA), burn them with but a touch (Damage Shield, HKA),
> and fly at great speeds.
Oh man... when I wrote up my 65+ adaptions of the Wildcards characters,
the *one* person I really had to bail out on was Pulse. He was just too
nasty to think about.
> I wanted Light to have a particularily nasty attack...
> He flies through people... bores through their flesh, going
> from one side to the other. I figured to avoid injury to himself
> he would be 'living light'-- and his burning touch would do the rest.
I think that such a power would be best built along the lines of a *huge*
No Range RKA, with Advantages like Armor Piercing and Continous (if he
doesn't go through on his first phase, he keeps burrowing until he finally
gets all the way through); and limitations like No Knockback.
> Would he be able to do additional damage with a move through if
> his Damage Shield, HKA was bought with the +2 advanteg (can affect
> physical world) and Desolidification was bought with the -1/2 Limitation
> (annot move through solid objects [unless he burns through them])
>
I don't think one should be allowed add Move Through velocity to the HKA.
There should be impact damage from the move through, and the Damage Shield
applied seperatly. Also, the Desolid limitation doesn't quite strike me
as proper. THe SFX of his Desoilid could be that he simply burns a whole
through certain mundane objects (like walls).
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 12:50:06 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> At 12:57 PM 11/1/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> >On Sat, 1 Nov 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> >At the moment, I am tinkering with adaptions of the cast of Masamune
> >Shirow's "Dominion". One of the write-ups is for 'Bonaparte', a
> >police department mini-tank. Anyway, Bonaparte has demonstrated the
> >ability to drive up the side of a building, provided there are two walls
> >close enough for it to fit between. It has also driven up inside an
> >elevator shaft.
>
> While driving around yesterday, I also thought about Men In Black.
> (Just make sure you have your seat belt fastened!)
Yeah, there was a great comic book car if I ever saw one!
> >Speaking of TUV, I have always felt that the focus limitaion for equipment
> >inside a vehicle to be a bit of a cop-out. Granted, anything I post to
> >this list uses such rules (since I'm shooting for 'vanilla' adaptions
> >after all), but is an IIF really worth -3/4 on a vehicle? The vehicle
> >designs I wrote up for my Kazei Five book (also due to go to Hero Games by
> >December 31) dropped Focus limitations for anything that was considered
> >internal gear. Extrernal devices still received the standard Focus
> >limitations, however.
>
> I'm going to give Focus an extra look over. There may be some reason
> for the extra bonus (other than the fact that regular characters can't use
> it). Something that comes to mind is that the Focus is subject to both the
> standard vehicle damage rules and the Focus damage rules.
Well, in the case of certin built in objects, that are protected by the
DEF of the vehcile (like an internal radio), the vehicle damage roules
should be sufficent. Granted, there could be a bit of expansion here to.
Like, what are the minuses for shooting at someone sitting in a car?
Shooting at a tire? What is the DEF & BOD of just a tire? If I am
sitting inside a car and start shooting into the car, do I count the car's
DEF? Shoulnd't a window be easier to but a bullet (or other attack)
through than the side panel?
> >I have also felt an expanded set of vehicle specific limitations would be
> >nice. Such ideas as extended start-up time (for certain planes), no easy
> >access (like tanks), rare or unusual fuels (like rockets) should be
> >discussed.
>
> I have at least a passing discussion of these specific things, and
> whatever other vehicle-specific Physical Limitations I could think of.
Cool.
> >And how about better definitions of standard vehicle equipment? Like your
> >typcial police car? It has a radio, computer, spotlight, loudpspeaker
> >(sometimes), headlights, radar gun, lightbar and siren...
>
> (Someone finally used the word "lightbar." I knew that this was what it
> was called, but I couldn't remember it until you said it, Michael.)
You can also call it 'the bubblegum machine' among other nicknames.
> >How would one go about defining all of this in Hero terms?
> >
> >Currently, some of this (spot, headlights nad lights and siren can be
> >considered Change Environment (or Images), but some examples of real world
> >gear would be nice.
>
> As I look the above list over, I can think of where every bit of
> equipment you list is discussed somewhere in the book, either in the
> vehicle creation chapter or in the Sourcebook section on sample equipment.
> As for the headlights and siren, I treat CE as the "standard" way of
> doing it, with Images as an alternate option.
Hey, great. I'm really looking forward to the book.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
From: Egyptoid@aol.com
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 12:53:05 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Black Hole
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>everything in your life which you believe has far less proof than what
>scientists have to show that C as used in E=MC^2 is the speed of
>light. I suggest that you talk to a physicist before you make claims
>like that.
Okay, I get in the city bus, roll over to Stanford, and I look up Dr.
Z.J.Carter.
I spend an hour talking to him about black holes and gravitics, lightspeed,
the event horizon, and what the Shwarzchild radius really means.
He chides me for reading too much Hawkings and not enough Lindstadt.
Dr. Carter is a certifiable genius, and he fills me in on several points,
and corrects me on some faulty assumptinos I had been making. We talk for
way longer than the simple lunch hour we had planned. I thank him profusely
for filling me in, and I'm about to take my leave of him, he asks me a simple
question:
"Why all the curiosity about black holes?"
I tell him, it's for a Champions game, so we can simulate a BH.
He laughs loud and long at me and my geek friends.
When he's done drying his eyes and regains his composure, he tells me:
"As I understand Champions, it is supposed to be a fun game, not a debating
ground. Why don't you leave the science out of it, just play the game as
written,
and try to make it enjoyable, rather than _painfully_realistic_ , like a
doctoral
dissertation? If you're spending all this energy & time on the arguments,
you can't be enjoying yourself."
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 12:54:35 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV (fwd)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> At 05:36 PM 11/1/97 -0500, Daniel Pawtowski wrote:
> >
> > Other things that don't resolve well at the Champs scale: how
> >do you represent the off-road capabilities of a station wagon vs.
> >a jeep vs a Hummer vs a tank? On the rare occasions it's come up,
> >we usually end up saying that a better off-road ability is bought
> >as a higher STR for the vehicle and the GM fudges road conditions
> >as necessary.
>
> I like the ideas of building Skill Levels vs certain types of terrain
> into the vehicle to represent this.
This is something that Steve Long uses a lot in "Eye for an Eye". Sports
cars and the like have Skill Levels with such modifers as "Only to
counteract off-road penalties" or "+3 with Ground Based Movement". Such
skill levels represent the excellent handeling characteristics of thge
vehicle in question.
One thing I find interesting, BTW, is the fact that such vehicles as an
Indy Car, or the F-15 have stats like a DEX of 23 or a SPD of 5. Now, a
normal human really isn't going to have characteristics close to these
numbers. Would it be considered abusive for areally experienced
driver/pilot to have bonuses to his DEX and/or SPD with a limitation of
"Only while Driving/Flying"?
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
From: Egyptoid@aol.com
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 13:20:16 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Re: Multilingual Telepathy?
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Telepathy:
Communication mind-to-mind. The BBB mentions no language, species, or
cultural hindrances to the communication. But certainly if a game master
wants to introduce such elements as limitations or advantages on the power,
he should feel free. In fact, why doesn't he implement a logical and
well-thought
out chart for "Telepathy Difficulty Modifiers" and submit that to the group?
I'd rather read a potentially useful game mechanic than some newbie's
opinions
on brain science.
>it's also impolite to act in such a pompous elitist manner over such
>a minor point.
Especially when this thread, the silly lecturing, and the faulty science
behind
the initial question, have been ground into the dirt. Please all of you, good
&
bad spellers alike, please drop it.
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 13:24:09 -0500 (EST)
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Re: RE: TUSV - Added Features
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>Spaceships, VTOL Taxi-cabs, Reentry capable cars, the possessed bomber,
>hover-cars, you name it!
How about rules on 'realistic' rentry and launch, as well as
environemntal conditions in space?
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 13:33:36 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Subject: CHAR: Buff the Roadbuster
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Buff is the car that Bean Bandit drives in the anime _Riding Bean_. What
with the recent discussion about vehicles, I thought I'd post this to the
list. Between this post, and the one for Ken Takizawa to follow, I've
finished with my adaptions for _Riding Bean_ and Gunsmith Cats_. Next up?
_Dominion_ I think.
BUFF THE ROADBUSTER
(aka BUFFALO)
STAT VALUE COST
Size 2x1 15
DCV -2
Mass (KB) 1600kg (-4)
Str 30 0
DEF 9 21
Body 14 1
Dex 23 39
Spd 4 7
Grnd Move 32x4 57
MAX 512 (190 mph)
Char Total 140
Equip Total 28
Total Cost 168
COST EQUIPMENT
7 Density Increase: 1 Level, Always on, +5 STR, -1" KB
6 HRRH, IIF (internal radio)
2 Puncture Resistant Tires (4): 4 DEF / 4 Body
6 3 Levels with Ground Movement
7 +4 to Combat Driving, Only to Counteract Deceleration
Modifiers (-1), IIF: Wheel Spikes (-3/4)
Disadvantages
133 Base
15 DF: Buff the Roadbuster, a one-of-a-kind sports car
20 Hunted: Chicago Police Dept. (mopow, NCI, lim geo) 11-
(Buff created by Kenichi Sonoda, character sheet written by Michael
Surbrook, additional material supplied by Michael House)
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 13:39:17 -0500 (EST)
From: "Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Weasel Attack!!!" <susano@access.digex.net>
Subject: CHAR: Ken Takizawa
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To: champ-l@omg.org
KEN "KEN TUCKY" TAKIZAWA
Designers Notes:
Ken Takizawa appears in the manga _Gunsmith Cats_. A nisei (first
generation Japanese-American immigrant), Ken is a bomb and pyrotechnics
expert as well as Minnie May's lover.
Ken first met up with Minnie May, when May was a 13 year-old runaway. She
was disguised as a boy at the time (going by the name of Mel), and Ken
took him (her) in and taught May the ins and outs of explosives. At one
point, Ken surprised May with a prostitute, brought in to make a man out
of "Mel". May fessed up to her deception and ended up romantically
engaged with Ken (she had fallen in love with him and had also discovered
his Lolita complex via his video collection).
Thins went well until Ken got on the wrong side of some mobsters, and had
to go into hiding. May went into hiding as well, taking refuge in a
high-class brothel in Chinatown. It wasn't until four years later that
the two of them would be reunited (however briefly).
Description:
Ken is of average height, thin with short black hair. He normally dresses
in casual clothing, but often adds a flame-resistant jacket to his
ensemble. He also goes under the alias of "Ken Tucky", a pun off of his
real name, and off of the Japanese pronunciation of Kentucky.
Powers Notes:
Ken is to bombs and explosives what Bean is to cars and Rally is to guns.
He is basically a god with things that go boom, and has extensive
experience with movie styled gun and pyrotechnic effects. He is quite
capable of building virtually undefuseable bombs, combing both electronic
and physical triggers.
Disadvantages Notes:
Aside from his troubles with the Mob, Ken is very much in love with Minnie
May. He will d almost anything for her, and to keep her from harm. Ken
also suffers from a degenerative nervous disorder that renders him
incapable of any fine manipulation understress. His ability to write
clearly is fading, and at one point he had to talk Minnie May through a
difficult bomb defusing.
The Character:
STAT VAL COST
Str 10 0
Dex 13 9
Con 10 0
Body 10 0
Int 18 8
Ego 14 8
Pre 13 3
Com 12 1
PD 3 1
ED 3 1
Spd 3 7
Rec 4 0
End 20 0
Stun 20 0
Char Total 38
Power Total 54
Total Cost 92
COST POWERS & SKILLS
3 Acting 12-
1 Computer Programming 8-
11 Demolitions 15-
5 Disguise 12-
7 Electronics 13-
4 KS: Grenades, Bombs & Explosives 14-
3 PS: SFX Technician 13-
2 SC: Chemistry 11-
3 SC: Explosives 13-
3 SC: Movie Pyrotechnics 13-
9 Weaponsmith: Explosive Devices (such as homemade bombs) 14-
3 WF: Small Arms, Explosive Devices
Disadvantages
50+ Base
20 Hunted: Mafia 8- (mopow, NCI)
15 Phys: Occasional nervous disorder (no fine manipulation abilities)
(Inf, Fully)
15 Psych: Loves Minnie May (com, strg)
(Ken Takizawa created by Kenichi Sonoda, character sheet written by
Michael Surbrook, additional material supplied by Michael House)
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: ...and then, there was Light.
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 02 Nov 1997 15:13:34 -0500
Lines: 25
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> writes:
MS> There should be impact damage from the move through, and the Damage
MS> Shield applied seperatly.
Nope. Damage Shields only come into play when being attacked or when
attacking with a "grab" maneuver.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin.
\
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy?
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 02 Nov 1997 15:21:05 -0500
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>>>>> "E" == Egyptoid <Egyptoid@aol.com> writes:
E> Communication mind-to-mind. The BBB mentions no language, species, or
E> cultural hindrances to the communication.
At the same time, we have Universal Translator, under which the BBB
specifically does mention these things. If you follow the rule of thumb
that a power cannot be used to duplicate the effects of another power or
talent[1], then Telepathy does not subsume the effects of Universal
Translator.
[1] There are a couple of powers that specifically allow this, but these
are exceptions rather than the norm.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
\
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 97 20:37:18
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Acronyms
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On Sat, 01 Nov 1997 15:41:11 +0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>qts wrote:
>>>But there isn't a set grammatical structure in Latin, so this could be
>>>rewritten, "Deus Est Mortuus..."
>>
>>Actually, there is - the verb comes at the end, and you usually have
>>Subject, clauses, Object, clauses, Verb. Unless you're writing poetry
>>
>Hmm. I *had* noticed this in the three years that I was studying it... but
>my teacher insisted it wasn't *necessarily* so. Even reading Cicero, I
>believe he mucked with the order *a lot*.
I only read Cicero in translation, but Caesar, Livy, and Tacitus all
wrote in the 'proper' manner.
> I don't see a problem in doing it
>here, especially if Cicero did it, or it was done in poetry, to make their
>speech more flowerly/elegant.
In poetry it was generally done for scansion purposes.
>So... Deus Est Mortuus... what?
Assuming versification,
Deo est mortuo omnia nigra (God having died, all is black). 'Deo
mortuo' being an Ablative Absolute.
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 97 20:38:49
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
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On Sat, 01 Nov 1997 15:56:53 +0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>At 10:09 PM 10/31/97, qts wrote:
>>Please don't forget things like the Triceratops saddle, or the
>>Raptor-drawn chariot, cloud castles on the Fantasy front and Jules
>>Verne style spaceships. Oh, and the Nautilus.
>>
>Wouldn't the first two be useless w/o write-ups of the Dinos? But I like
>the point you made... beast-propelled vehicles...
Hehehe! You could also arguably make the Dinos SFX...
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:14:11 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: ...and then, there was Light.
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On 2 Nov 1997, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> >>>>> "MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> writes:
>
> MS> There should be impact damage from the move through, and the Damage
> MS> Shield applied seperatly.
>
> Nope. Damage Shields only come into play when being attacked or when
> attacking with a "grab" maneuver.
I would argue that if someone has a Damage Shield and they physically
impact with someone, then the Damage Shield should affect the target.
This is no different offensivly than performing a Grab on the target. In
fact, performing a grab would allow the Damage Shield to affect your
target until the grab is broken, while applying the affects of a Damage
Shield due to impact is only going to be for that one phase.
Let me ask this then: If Flameguy has a Damage Shield, and he gets knocked
ontop of someone, would that person take damage from the Shield until
Flameguy was pulled of him? I would say yes, because I have always felt
that a Damage Shield activates upon any physcyal contact with the person
who has Damage Shield.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 13:14:21 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Black Hole
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Egyptoid@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 10/28/97 9:36:16 AM, trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu wrote:
> >> I switch my VPP to FTL. I escape. End of story.
> >> As the tidal forces pull you into many (very long and very thin)
> >pieces.
> No, please re-read FTL in the BBB, I'm gone, No Damage.
Sorry, but I defined my Black Hole with a linked transdimensional
30D6RKA AoE Damage Shield defined by special effect as affecting
anyone who uses FTL into or out of the area. In space, no one can hear
you extrude messily.
> I drop Black Hole Dude with my RKA BOECV. I win.
Entirely different question. Black Hole Dude is a projector with a
gravitational EC. He has a finite number of real points and his active
points in any attack are bounded by campaign limits. If the GM has put
in a collapsed star of less than the Schwartzchild radius for its mass
somewhere in his campaign, then there are no boundaries on the number of
points available, and the GM is free to define it in any way that pleases
the GM.
>
> >> See my earlier comment on telepathic "realism".
> Don't hassle players with physics, and please drop this
> overwrought, over thought thread. It is going nowhere and
> proving nothing.
See my response to your above-cited comment. If you don't like the
thread, then don't read the thread.
The degree of verisimilitude (to use Stainless Steel Rat's word) in a
campaign is a matter of taste, both the GM's taste and the players'. If
the tone of the campaign is "Star Trek," then game physics should have a
solid grounding in real-world physics, and the GM should use this fact
dramatically. If the tone is "Space Opera," then real-world physics is
probably just inconvenient.
In any event, no one is telling you how to run *your* campaign. A
discussion of the form, "I want to model X in game terms," is certainly
germane to the purpose of the list, and there are lots of legitimate
answers to the question, among them, "Here is how a real X works."
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 13:42:39 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
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At 12:50 PM 11/2/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>> I'm going to give Focus an extra look over. There may be some reason
>> for the extra bonus (other than the fact that regular characters can't use
>> it). Something that comes to mind is that the Focus is subject to both the
>> standard vehicle damage rules and the Focus damage rules.
>
>Well, in the case of certin built in objects, that are protected by the
>DEF of the vehcile (like an internal radio), the vehicle damage roules
>should be sufficent. Granted, there could be a bit of expansion here to.
>Like, what are the minuses for shooting at someone sitting in a car?
>Shooting at a tire? What is the DEF & BOD of just a tire? If I am
>sitting inside a car and start shooting into the car, do I count the car's
>DEF? Shoulnd't a window be easier to but a bullet (or other attack)
>through than the side panel?
Very good points there. Yes, all of this this is definitely going to
need some reevaluation (at the least) for TUSV.
---
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Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 13:43:41 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
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At 08:38 PM 11/2/97, qts wrote:
>On Sat, 01 Nov 1997 15:56:53 +0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>
>>At 10:09 PM 10/31/97, qts wrote:
>>>Please don't forget things like the Triceratops saddle, or the
>>>Raptor-drawn chariot, cloud castles on the Fantasy front and Jules
>>>Verne style spaceships. Oh, and the Nautilus.
>>>
>>Wouldn't the first two be useless w/o write-ups of the Dinos? But I like
>>the point you made... beast-propelled vehicles...
>
>Hehehe! You could also arguably make the Dinos SFX...
Arguably, yes, yes, with INT and EGO -- except that Dinos would take
STUN, which is beyond the scope of a vehicle.
---
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Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 13:46:43 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV (fwd)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 12:54 PM 11/2/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>> At 05:36 PM 11/1/97 -0500, Daniel Pawtowski wrote:
>> >
>> > Other things that don't resolve well at the Champs scale: how
>> >do you represent the off-road capabilities of a station wagon vs.
>> >a jeep vs a Hummer vs a tank? On the rare occasions it's come up,
>> >we usually end up saying that a better off-road ability is bought
>> >as a higher STR for the vehicle and the GM fudges road conditions
>> >as necessary.
>>
>> I like the ideas of building Skill Levels vs certain types of terrain
>> into the vehicle to represent this.
>
>This is something that Steve Long uses a lot in "Eye for an Eye". Sports
>cars and the like have Skill Levels with such modifers as "Only to
>counteract off-road penalties" or "+3 with Ground Based Movement". Such
>skill levels represent the excellent handeling characteristics of thge
>vehicle in question.
They're built that way, but I don't think anything explicit is ever said
within the book (I'd have to double check). Now it will be.
>One thing I find interesting, BTW, is the fact that such vehicles as an
>Indy Car, or the F-15 have stats like a DEX of 23 or a SPD of 5. Now, a
>normal human really isn't going to have characteristics close to these
>numbers. Would it be considered abusive for areally experienced
>driver/pilot to have bonuses to his DEX and/or SPD with a limitation of
>"Only while Driving/Flying"?
I wouldn't think so, at least for DEX. Nor would Lightning Reflexes be
too bad with such a Limitation.
However, I'm up in the air as to whether a character should be charged
double for going over Characteristic Maxima.
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Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 13:46:43 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV (fwd)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 12:54 PM 11/2/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>> At 05:36 PM 11/1/97 -0500, Daniel Pawtowski wrote:
>> >
>> > Other things that don't resolve well at the Champs scale: how
>> >do you represent the off-road capabilities of a station wagon vs.
>> >a jeep vs a Hummer vs a tank? On the rare occasions it's come up,
>> >we usually end up saying that a better off-road ability is bought
>> >as a higher STR for the vehicle and the GM fudges road conditions
>> >as necessary.
>>
>> I like the ideas of building Skill Levels vs certain types of terrain
>> into the vehicle to represent this.
>
>This is something that Steve Long uses a lot in "Eye for an Eye". Sports
>cars and the like have Skill Levels with such modifers as "Only to
>counteract off-road penalties" or "+3 with Ground Based Movement". Such
>skill levels represent the excellent handeling characteristics of thge
>vehicle in question.
They're built that way, but I don't think anything explicit is ever said
within the book (I'd have to double check). Now it will be.
>One thing I find interesting, BTW, is the fact that such vehicles as an
>Indy Car, or the F-15 have stats like a DEX of 23 or a SPD of 5. Now, a
>normal human really isn't going to have characteristics close to these
>numbers. Would it be considered abusive for areally experienced
>driver/pilot to have bonuses to his DEX and/or SPD with a limitation of
>"Only while Driving/Flying"?
I wouldn't think so, at least for DEX. Nor would Lightning Reflexes be
too bad with such a Limitation.
However, I'm up in the air as to whether a character should be charged
double for going over Characteristic Maxima.
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Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 13:52:34 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV - Added features
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At 11:34 AM 11/2/97 -0500, Egyptoid@aol.com wrote:
>> Maybe I will indeed build a "Spook Tank" from the M-1 Abrams in HSA2,
>>and stick it in the Sample Characters.
>
>How about vehicles from the movie HEAVY METAL?
Yeesh. My wife saw that one, and from her description I don't know that
I even want to think about it. (I will stick it in the Bibliography
though, based on the below sentence.)
>Spaceships, VTOL Taxi-cabs, Reentry capable cars, the possessed bomber,
>hover-cars, you name it!
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Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 13:53:45 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: RE: TUSV - Added Features
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At 01:24 PM 11/2/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
>>Spaceships, VTOL Taxi-cabs, Reentry capable cars, the possessed bomber,
>>hover-cars, you name it!
>
> How about rules on 'realistic' rentry and launch, as well as
>environemntal conditions in space?
I have the environmental conditions in space there already; I'll give a
look around to see what I can find for realistic coverage of launch and
reentry (which usually take place in that order).
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From: Legionair@aol.com
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:09:59 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy?
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In a message dated 97-11-02 15:26:32 EST, ratinox@peorth.gweep.net writes:
<< At the same time, we have Universal Translator, under which the BBB
specifically does mention these things. If you follow the rule of thumb
that a power cannot be used to duplicate the effects of another power or
talent[1], then Telepathy does not subsume the effects of Universal
Translator. >>
Once again, I agree with your point but disagree with this particular
practice. I don't think that the spoken tongue has anything to do with
Telepathy. I think comparing the two is like comparing apples to oranges.
Universal Translator will allow the PC to communicate with anyone, but it
doesn't allow the PC to acquire information not readily given. Telepathy, on
the other hand, is made to do just that.
Saying that Telepathy will not work on character's who speak a different
language, only because Universal Translator exists, is like saying you can't
buy Gliding because Flight exists.
Granted, as a GM I might take a bit of leeway with the idea... I.e. trying
to mentally speak to an alien who has thought patterns completely different
than a humans... Or, as I have done in one of my recent games, having
Universal Translator not work because the NPCs in question spoke using
English spoken words with definitions that meant something totally different.
(Which, in turn, was stolen from the ST:TNG episode Darmok (sp?).)
Jason Galterio
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy?
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 15:14:07 -0800
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On Sunday, November 02, 1997 1:43 PM, Legionair@aol.com wrote:
<snip>
>Granted, as a GM I might take a bit of leeway with the idea... I.e.
trying
>to mentally speak to an alien who has thought patterns completely
different
>than a humans... Or, as I have done in one of my recent games,
having
>Universal Translator not work because the NPCs in question spoke
using
>English spoken words with definitions that meant something totally
different.
> (Which, in turn, was stolen from the ST:TNG episode Darmok (sp?).)
There was also an example from, I believe, an old Dragon magazine. A
language might have ten, twenty, or more words designed to make fine
distinctions that simply don't exist in another language. The example
they gave was for wood elves talking to ordinary humans. "I'll meet
you tomorrow, over next to that clearing, by the green tree." "The
green tree?" "No, the _green_ tree!"
Filksinger
X-Sender: scm@mail.aci.net
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 15:26:24 -0800
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <shelley@mactyre.net>
Subject: Re: Doing Rule of X in Hero-4 (Can it be done, and How?)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 01:05 AM 11/2/97 -0800, Rook wrote:
>Hello;
> I've noticed ONE thing that I liked in Fuzion, The Rule of X.
>Anybody have any ideas on how we could port this over into Hero-4?
>
>Unlike Fuzion's version, a champs version would have to also consider
>things like Desolid or Penetrating...
>
>Here it is below:
[SNIP]
I always used the guidelines from "Playing the Numbers" (p. S22 in the BBB)
for this sort of thing, myself, and what that didn't cover, I made up.
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
www.mactyre.net
Your children will see the stars.
--Robert A. Heinlein
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 10:55:19 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy?
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
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At 01:41 AM 11/2/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>.. . and hence it is justified to use it as a reason to act in an
>adversarial manner?
>>
>No, and I do apologize if I sounded adversarial. I actually didn't
>intend for it to be. I was trying to firmly point out that no one will
>take you seriously as an expert at anything academic if you do not
>spell it correctly.
>
Non-adversarial- hence the statements made later about mental defficiancy?
look, filk, you aren't fooling me, and you aren't fooling yourself, i guess
for everyone else it's a matter of who spells better?
>I do not wish to sound adversarial about this, but is there a
>particular reason you don't use a spellchecker? If it is your
>software, then, most likely, you can find a better free one out there.
>
spellcheck my MAIL? what are you people, mechanoids?
>Filksinger
>
>
>
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 17:21:38 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: RE: TUSV - Added Features
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At 05:52 PM 11/2/97 -0500, Eric Pawtowski wrote:
>> At 01:24 PM 11/2/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
>>
>> I have the environmental conditions in space there already; I'll give a
>> look around to see what I can find for realistic coverage of launch and
>> reentry (which usually take place in that order).
Actually, *I* wrote that. (Is there something wrong with some people's
quoting systems that causes this phenomenon?)
>Please, *PLEASE* can you try to get something right that almost
>everyone gets wrong: if the ship in question is so high-tech that
>it's avalable delta-V is effectively unlimited (or, in English, it can
>use it's engines all day and never have to worry about running out of gas)
>an has high-thrust engines (engines are strong enough so that it can
>hover or accelerate straight up in Earths' gravity) then it does
>*not* have to do a high-speed flaming re-entry the way modern
>20th century spacecraft do.
Unless, of course, your milieu emulates "Plan Nine From Outer Space" and
similarly cheesy sci-fi flicks. Then it's perfectly OK to majorly screw up
real science.
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From: Legionair <Legionair@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 21:46:48 EST
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy?
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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In a message dated 97-11-02 20:06:13 EST, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au writes:
<< spellcheck my MAIL? what are you people, mechanoids? >>
No, I think the word you meant to use was considerate. Or maybe we just take
a little bit more self-respect in the way we communicate with other people.
Jason
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 13:11:44 +1000
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no, i think the phrase i was looking for was 'anal retentive hypocrites who
attribute obsessive use of spell-checkers to good nature despite their
own endlessly negative attitude'.
At 09:46 PM 11/2/97 -0500, you wrote:
>In a message dated 97-11-02 20:06:13 EST, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au writes:
>
><< spellcheck my MAIL? what are you people, mechanoids? >>
>
>No, I think the word you meant to use was considerate. Or maybe we just take
>a little bit more self-respect in the way we communicate with other people.
>
>Jason
>
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 19:27:37 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
(Captain Spith wrote;)
> >.... If interested, I can find and post the formula (and my
> >interpretation of its less than absolute specifics) from my Old Champs
> >book.
> Go ahead and do so. I think it'd be an option that at least some Hero
> GMs would be interesting in using.
Me and my big mouth... or keyboard, I guess. Well, I looked through
my archives and couldn't find my 3rd edition, but here it is from ...
Champions 1st edition, ©1981.
"If a character starts a phase out of combat and ends a phase out of
combat, the character may accelerate to a much higher noncombat
Flight distance. A character may accelerate to a maximum noncombat
Flight velocity as given by the following formula:
Max. Velocity = (pts. in flight/5) x inches of Flight per phase
Flying at noncombat speeds takes no more END than normal. A
character
may fly at his top noncombat velocity for the same END cost as his
combat
Flight."
-page 38
In the 2nd edition, it also specifies that a character's OCV and DCV
are *0* while moving at noncombat speeds.
Any, my interpretation of the formula is that the (pts. in flight/5)
refers to _real_ points, not active points, thus making different
results for 'natural' and focussed flight noncombat multiples.
I.E. SuperduperGuy has 20" of self-propelled flight (based on -uh-
gravity manipulation. Yeah, that's it.), thus can reach a noncombat
velocity of
(40/5)x20=160" noncombat flight per phase. However,
RocketBoy has a jetpack which gives him 20" flight. The jet pack is
a Bulky OIF for a total Bonus of (-1), so
(20/5)x20=80" noncombat flight per phase. Additionally,
Marlin the gilled magician has 20" flight that is Difficult to
dispel, 1/2 END and Invisible power effects (to sight group - don't ask
how, it's just an example), for +1 advantage. He also has the (-1/2)
limitation that it requires a Magic Roll. So his noncombat formula
goes
(53/5)x20=220" noncombat flight per phase.
Okay, I'm not sure about the application of the advantages in the
formula, but it seems to work for most advantages I looked over,
considering that there are not that many different advantages applicable
to flight. But I do like, generally, the variance in the noncombat
velocity for different configurations of flight. Also I like the 0DCV
for noncombat, as opposed to 1/2DCV from 4th ed. Perhaps both versions
could even work in tandem, with their asociated OCV/DCV penalties.
But I also think that the formula with it's higher noncombat multiple
and more severe O/DCV penalties would work well for vehicles, both
flight and probably ground movement as well.
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 20:10:23 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV (fwd)
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Michael Surbrook wrote:
> Headlights (and light sources in general) are one of the more awkward
> things to do in Hero. Yes, they should be Change Environment, but that
> gets rather expensive, especially if you want to light up more than one
> hex. (And if your headlights only extend 1 hex, you'd better have an
> awfully good driving roll...) Even making them fragile OAF, they tend to
> cost more than they should. Most published vehicles don't bother listing
> them, tossing them in as a special effect I suppose. I tend to "waste"
> points in building them for my vehicles, but it bugs me when otehr
> characters get them for free. TUSV is a good place to set a precedent, one
> way or the other.
>
> And how about heating and air conditioning? What about my pine tree air
> freshener??? And the 1 pip energy KA for the dash lighter????
I have always held fast that Headlights (or lightbars, etc.) were
light illusions. These need not be terribly expensive, since there's no
big worry about the illusion being 'seen through', and they are on the
outside of a vehicle, so should get vehicle-focus bonus, and probably
'fragile' as well. Perhaps even some form of Area Affect-Cone/Explosion
for headlights.
A Speaker would be a sonic illusion, with mostly the same limitations-
outside of vehicle, fragile (possibly). Again, the 'integrity' of the
'illusion' would not be important; nobody mistakes a loudspeaker as
being the position of the actual character....
Air conditioning, Heater, Little Tree®, cigarette lighter should
generally be simple SFX, unless they result in significant benefit to
the characters. Also remember that SFX CAN provide occasional benefit
to characters, but only rarely. Just because the air conditioner clears
the evil pheremones out of the Good Guy's area once in his 8 months of
gaming, doesn't mean it has to be paid for in points.
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 22:17:29 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy?
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> >you assign to your correspondence. In fact, by compelling your readers
> >to guess at your meaning ("Did he mean psychology or physiology?") you
> >waste their time, and that is impolite.
> >
>
> it's also impolite to act in such a pompous elitets manner over such
> a minor point.
Not to mention taking what seems to be a private discussion
public. (And it's rare for me to natice Mr. Jones's comments, as I
generally delete him on sight.)
> >Of course, we all slip up from time to time, and everyone understands the
> >occasional foible; however, if a poster routinely misspells words that
> >are central to his or her discussion, then it is difficult to take
> >whatever that person has to say seriously.
> >
>
> .. . and hence it is justified to use it as a reason to act in an adversarial manner?
More as a justification to ignore and disregard.
>
> (p.s. the next step in your extremly predictable discource is
> to question the quality of my place of study- but over here uni's
> are of a uniformly high quality so PPPHHHHTTTTT! :-<~~~)
Hard to believe actually. An instituation (or company or group or
whatever) can be judged by its members -- they are it's representatives to
the world. As I can only base my conduct of that university off of the
only representative I have seen (nmaely you), I must asume it is an
institution of questionable quality.
-Tim Gilberg
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 14:29:14 +1000
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Subject: Re: Doing Rule of X in Hero-4 (Can it be done, and How?)
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At 09:07 PM 11/2/97 -0800, you wrote:
<snippety snip>
> The Rule of X is a tool best kept by New/Inexperienced GMs. Even in
>the Fuzion system, it is still point-based, and balance, unlimately,
>will result. If a character puts all points into strength and ignores
>everything else, (aside from the requisite 1 point per stat) (s)he will
>be really powerful, but amazingly easily subdued. So there is a
>built-in balancing mechanism.
it's also an important point of many genre's- why do superheros
team up? because they're TOAST on their own!
>Also, as I've stated, due to the level of
>detail in the mathematical structure of
>powers/limitations/advantages/disadvantages, the Hero system's 'Rule of
>X' boils down to;
> Character Cost - Disadvantages = X = Base Points. All characters in
>a given game should have the same value for X.
>
then only thing that's really required is to keep a leash
on limitations, so that people don't get HUGE powers if
you don't want them to. Even this is a relatively minor problem.
>--
> -Capt. Spith
> Savior of Humanity
> Secular Messiah
>
>
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 14:36:16 +1000
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Subject: Re: Black Hole
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At 01:14 PM 11/2/97 -0800, you wrote:
>See my response to your above-cited comment. If you don't like the
>thread, then don't read the thread.
>
>In any event, no one is telling you how to run *your* campaign. A
>discussion of the form, "I want to model X in game terms," is certainly
>germane to the purpose of the list, and there are lots of legitimate
>answers to the question, among them, "Here is how a real X works."
>
>
It's just a pity it isn't a 'real' anything. It's just another
opinion, modeled roughly on astrophysics, with far more conviction
than the average astrophysicist is going to give it. Gentlemen, please
refrain from claiming to know the truth about the closest thing to
infinity mankind will likely ever know.
From: Legionair@aol.com
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 23:42:14 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy?
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In a message dated 97-11-02 22:19:43 EST, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au writes:
<< no, i think the phrase i was looking for was 'anal retentive hypocrites
who
attribute obsessive use of spell-checkers to good nature despite their
own endlessly negative attitude'. >>
sigh - One day you'll grow up. For now I'll just put you back in my kill
file.
Jason
From: Legionair@aol.com
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 23:42:22 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
In a message dated 97-11-02 22:19:43 EST, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au writes:
<< no, i think the phrase i was looking for was 'anal retentive hypocrites
who
attribute obsessive use of spell-checkers to good nature despite their
own endlessly negative attitude'. >>
sigh - One day you'll grow up. For now I'll just put you back in my kill
file.
Jason
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 14:45:47 +1000
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Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy?
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At 10:17 PM 11/2/97 -0600, you wrote:
>
>
> Not to mention taking what seems to be a private discussion
>public. (And it's rare for me to natice Mr. Jones's comments, as I
>generally delete him on sight.)
>
So i'm supposed to wear a bunch of private mail from pointless raving
flame-aholics?
>> >Of course, we all slip up from time to time, and everyone understands the
>> >occasional foible; however, if a poster routinely misspells words that
>> >are central to his or her discussion, then it is difficult to take
>> >whatever that person has to say seriously.
>> >
>>
>> .. . and hence it is justified to use it as a reason to act in an adversarial manner?
>
> More as a justification to ignore and disregard.
>
so your just throwing your own ego in here? i mean, that's probably
the most contradictory attempt at logic i've ever seen. "i'm
just chiming in to say i'm ingoring you"? please. Tell someone
who cares.
> Hard to believe actually. An instituation (or company or group or
>whatever) can be judged by its members -- they are it's representatives to
>the world. As I can only base my conduct of that university off of the
>only representative I have seen (nmaely you), I must asume it is an
>institution of questionable quality.
>
yes, and i'm sure your parameters (typing quality in casual emailing)
are completly valid?
I DON'T THINK SO!!
>
> -Tim Gilberg
>
>
From: Legionair@aol.com
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 23:53:46 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy?
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In a message dated 97-11-02 18:20:50 EST, filkhero@usa.net writes:
<< There was also an example from, I believe, an old Dragon magazine. A
language might have ten, twenty, or more words designed to make fine
distinctions that simply don't exist in another language. The example
they gave was for wood elves talking to ordinary humans. "I'll meet
you tomorrow, over next to that clearing, by the green tree." "The
green tree?" "No, the _green_ tree!" >>
Ah, I didn't remember that one. :)
In this particular case, it's a Star Trek type game... I felt the character
were relying on their communicators a bit too much. Logically, I thought if
the other race had been English speaking, but had their language degenerate,
the translator wouldn't know how to deal with it...
Jason
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 15:02:53 +1000
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Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy?
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At 11:42 PM 11/2/97 -0500, you wrote:
>In a message dated 97-11-02 22:19:43 EST, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au writes:
>
><< no, i think the phrase i was looking for was 'anal retentive hypocrites
>who
> attribute obsessive use of spell-checkers to good nature despite their
> own endlessly negative attitude'. >>
>
>sigh - One day you'll grow up. For now I'll just put you back in my kill
>file.
>
>Jason
>
i herby sponsor this post for the 'most pointless statement
of all time' award. Either he wins it, or i do with this little adendum
*eg*
From: Egyptoid@aol.com
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:04:12 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Re: Help with TUSV
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>>considered Change Environment (or Images), but some examples of real world
>>gear would be nice.
> As I look the above list over, I can think of where every bit of
>equipment you list is discussed somewhere in the book, either in the
>vehicle creation chapter or in the Sourcebook section on sample equipment.
and please tell us how much it costs.
Many of the vehicles charts in supplements
simply list the relevant combat stats,
and conspicuously absent are the
total active or real costs of the vehicles listed.
thanks in advance.
--
Elliott
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 21:07:10 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Doing Rule of X in Hero-4 (Can it be done, and How?)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Rook wrote:
>
> Hello;
> I've noticed ONE thing that I liked in Fuzion, The Rule of X.
> Anybody have any ideas on how we could port this over into Hero-4?
>
> Unlike Fuzion's version, a champs version would have to also consider
> things like Desolid or Penetrating...
>
> Here it is below:
>
> THE RULE OF X
(Rule of X-plaination snipped)
I believe I mentioned this during the slew of Fuzion-bashing a few
months ago, but I'm gonna say it again.
The Rule of X is a tool best kept by New/Inexperienced GMs. Even in
the Fuzion system, it is still point-based, and balance, unlimately,
will result. If a character puts all points into strength and ignores
everything else, (aside from the requisite 1 point per stat) (s)he will
be really powerful, but amazingly easily subdued. So there is a
built-in balancing mechanism.
Also, as was mentioned, the variety of the Hero system would make the
implementation of an 'X rule' very difficult to monitor; would the rule
apply to active points or real points? Would there be any limitations
or disadvantages to effectively 'cancel out' points to allow a higher
'X' value while technically following the Rule?
But more directly, aside from myself and rare instances elsewhere,
there is already a balancing rule implemented by Hero System players and
GMs almost everywhere; Attack AP range, Defense AP range, etc. Look at
any RPG game introductory invitation, and you'll see a list of power and
level guidelines set by the GM.
I think the Fuzion System was built with the 'X rule' in mind, thus
designed to accommodate it. The Hero System was not, thus such a Rule
would be difficult at best. Also, as I've stated, due to the level of
detail in the mathematical structure of
powers/limitations/advantages/disadvantages, the Hero system's 'Rule of
X' boils down to;
Character Cost - Disadvantages = X = Base Points. All characters in
a given game should have the same value for X.
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 21:39:03 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Doing Rule of X in Hero-4 (Can it be done, and How?)
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jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
> > Character Cost - Disadvantages = X = Base Points. All characters in
> >a given game should have the same value for X.
> >
>
> then only thing that's really required is to keep a leash
> on limitations, so that people don't get HUGE powers if
> you don't want them to. Even this is a relatively minor problem.
True. At extremes, if a character has too many disads, they are
going to be affecting him/her ALL the time! In the "Are you a
Powergamer" article from an old AC (I think it was included in the BBB,
actually, but I'm not sure), the mention was made that, obviously, at a
certainly level, additional disads start bringing diminished returns.
When you're hunted by three SuperVillian Groups and take X2 STUN from
all Physical attacks, is one more D6 on your EB worth 1D6 Unluck added
to your list?
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 12:30:21 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
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X-Status:
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X-UID: 27
>Hey! Don't forget the "Spider Buggy". Jonny Storm aka the Human Torch
>made it fir Spidey
>
When was this? I was under the impression that the only time that Spidey
actually used a vehicle was in those old 70's toys... and I thought it was
the Spidey-mobile.
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 12:46:21 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV: Mass Combat
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At 11:17 AM 11/3/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>To get back to TUSV, I suspect morale should be a lesser consideration
>with vehicles than with foot troops. Not having been in either sort of
>combat, I can't speak for the reality of the matter, but fictional
>dogfights seem to lean more toward tactical retreats than toward routs.
>
Well, the only "combat" I've been in was simulated stuff in ROTC. Several
scenarios utilizing basic small group infantry tactics (ambush, raid, etc)
and then the two times I got to play in the Armor Batallion combat
simulator... but I was only the loader for a PLT LDR's tank. Our morale
didn't really drop until we were dead, or at least being overrun. ("Damn
Bober. She has no idea what she's doing.") We ran one defense, and one
offense. For us, it was a difference in skills that *really* mattered.
Imagine a group of about 80 Cadets (about 20 tanks, 4 per), most of whom
have had no formal tactical training of any kind (our driver was a frat boy
from Arkansas). Now imagine them running and operating these tanks against
a slightly superior number of competently computer controlled tanks. Ow.
And most game systems don't really get into morale checks in combat, either.
At least not until one side is losing significantly, anyway.
- Jerry
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 03 Nov 97 08:00:00 GMT
Subject: Re: Comic book martial a
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Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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h > From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
h > Subject: Re: Comic book martial a
h >
h > > h > What you've got to do as a GM is to _restrict_ everybody else's
h > > h > lower levels. Martial Artists built to 'realistic' standards
h > > h > creamed every time by those DEX 18 Bricks. Ask the other players
h > > h > villians) why they should, under their character concept, get
h > > h > DEX. Suddenly that 23 DEX martial artist isn't looking so bad -
h > >
h >
h > >And, it seems wrong to artificially restrict what
h > >other characters buy.
h >
h > As opposed to arbitrary Active Point limitations? Oranges and oranges,
h > IMHO.
h > It kinda bugs me when somebody describes their character as a
h > 'lumbering
h > mass of animated rock', then buys DEX 18, SPD 4. That 'lumbering mass'
h > most world-level atheletes to shame. But according to most published
h > characters, that's Brick _standard_. Yipes.
h >
Bugs me too, though to be fair, 'lumbering' can be just a decriptive -
bears could be described as lumbering, but they're very fast and agile
when they want to be. Anyway, it seemed to me you meant to restrict
super-human DEX to Martial Artists, which is obviously not the case.
h > Ick. I don't like 3 point levels in Martial Arts. Most have more than
h > 3
h > maneuvers, making it VERY efficient. I prefer 5 point levels in
h > hand-to-hand.
True, but the manuevers get repetative and expensive after a while,
about 4 manuevers is most efficient. Maybe 3pts levels for a specific
art and 5 for 'martial arts,' would be reasonable.
h > Fine and dandy. BUT, this should have to fit into the character
h > a guy was a 'normal' (albeit skilled) MA before he becomes Brickman,
h > keep the good DEX and SPD (unless his powers inherently slow him down
h > something). But if Joe Average becomes Brickman, I don't see why his
h > DEX and
h > SPD should suddenly shoot up to near-human-maximum. "Because he needs
h > it to
h > be compeditive!" is the wrong answer, IMHO, and if you're getting it,
h > maybe
Maybe at first, but if you go in against super-fast mutants all the
time, your DEX and SPD are going to go up.
h > it's time to crank back almost everybody's DEX and SPD.
h >
h > Remember, I'm not saying "We should keep the MAs at human-possible
h > DEX". I'm
h > saying that we should keep EVERYONE at 'realistic' DEX/SPD for their
h > character concepts, allowing that 20+ DEX to only those concepts that
h > really
h > justify it. Like chi-strong Martial Artists, or Speedsters, or
h > Ubermen/Super-Soldiers.
h > And yes, levels CAN make a difference, but buying Levels is never as
h > cheap
h > or efficient as buying raw DEX. 3 DEX = 9 points, for which you get:
h >
h > +1 OCV
h > +1 DCV
h > +3 Lightining Reflexes
h > +.3 SPD
h > and probably +1 to all DEX rolls and DEX skills.
h >
h > Buying all this with Levels/talents would cost you 20-odd points. No
h > wonder
h > folks go for high DEX over DEX + levels. PCs aren't stupid...
Actually, levels give you superior flexibility. For instance, for 9pts
you can get +3 DEX and a +1 OCV/DCV... for the same 9 pts you can get
3 Martial Arts (assume a small number of manuevers) good for +3 OCV or
+3 DCV or some combination. Depending on situations and tactics, one
character or the other might have the advantage, DEX doesn't win hands
down.
h > Plus, if you can control the DEX/SPD war, suddenly everybody has
h > points that
h > can go elsewhere. And if everyone keeps the same relative DEX/SPD,
h > everyone
h > is still 'compeditive', though agents and the like become a little
h > more
h > threating. Not a bad thing - obviously, someone at HERO thinks that we
h > need
h > 250 point agents to be threatening (Genocide, anyone?).
Yes! Exactly my view. I was just pointing out that a non-martial
artist can be fast if it fits concept, and that a slow martial artist
can be competative.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 03 Nov 97 08:10:02 GMT
Subject: Martial Arts + HKA
X-Ftn-To: herolist@october.com
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Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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h >
h > From: Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria <gevaerd@laranjeiras.lci.ufrj.br>
h > Subject: Martial Arts + HKA
h > To: champ-l@omg.org
h >
h > In the HKA description, it says that you cannot add more Damage
h > Classes to the HKA by your STR than what the HKA has itself, that is,
h > the
h > damage done with HKA + STR cannot be more than 2 * damage of the HKA
h > alone.
h > What about using Martials Arts with the HKA, would you use any
h > kind of
h > limit like that ?
Yes, the same limit. An HKA cannot be more than doubled.
A martial killing strike on the other hand, can be up to
doubled by STR, but is increased by DC's before hand. So
if you had a killing strike (1/2 d KA), and 4 DC's you'd
have a 1d+1 KA that you could add up to 20 STR to for a
total of 2 1/2d. OTOH, if you had a 1/2d killing knife
(that you could use with your martial art), you could only
increase it to 1d+1, however many DCs you may have.
(at least, that's the best I can do reading the rules)
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 03 Nov 97 08:18:04 GMT
Subject: Re: STR + HKA
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h > >I.E. 1D6 HKA and 60 STR equals MAX 2D6 HKA (cannot exceed double HKA
h > DC)
h > >
h > > -Capt. Spith
h > >
h >
h > Doesn't that seem a bit silly though? If a character can juggle tanks,
h > and
h > do a whopping 12d6 (60 active points) with his normal punch, why
h > should he
h > be limited to a mere 2d6 HKA (30 active points)?
h > That's like saying that if you tie a rock to the front of a dumptruck
h > and
h > smash into a Brick, he would take a maximum damage of the rock x 2...
h >
Yeah, it does seem a bit silly, but it's ballanced. And, you can
stretch it a bit. A sword is still just a piece of metal, structurally,
it's probably not as tough as the brick's fist - the sword might have
a 6 DEF, the 60 STR character has at least 12. (not that it matters,
but in 1st Ed Champions HKA got +1d per 20 STR with no limit, instead
of +1/15 up to double - Armadillo had a 1d HKA: 4d w/STR)
It get's really funny in Ninja Hero, where the doubling limit also
applies to normal damage weapons (I don't want to hurt him, so I'll
put on my brass knuckles...)
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 00:25:40 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Note to the group: I attempted to take this discussion offline, since it
has really gotten beyond any rational relation to the purpose of this
list. For reasons best known to himself, Mr. Jones has chosen to respond
to the list, rather than to me privately, thereby continuing the waste of
bandwidth.
jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
>
> (p.s. the next step in your extremly predictable discource is
> to question the quality of my place of study-
Actually, I have no *intention* of questioning the quality of your
institution: that would be churlish and irrelevant. I have met brilliant
people with degrees from humble colleges and ignorant dunderheads with
degrees from prestigious universities.
What I said was private and intended for your advantage. If you choose
not to view it that way, that is your choice, not mine. If you want to
hurl imprecations in my direction, please leave everyone else out of it
-- I am sure that they are bored by now.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 01:28:17 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: STR + HKA
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Jason D. Hendricks wrote:
>
>
> >I.E. 1D6 HKA and 60 STR equals MAX 2D6 HKA (cannot exceed double HKA DC)
>
> Doesn't that seem a bit silly though? If a character can juggle tanks, and
> do a whopping 12d6 (60 active points) with his normal punch, why should he
> be limited to a mere 2d6 HKA (30 active points)?
> That's like saying that if you tie a rock to the front of a dumptruck and
> smash into a Brick, he would take a maximum damage of the rock x 2...
Hero seems to be designed to make it *really* hard to kill characters.
Consider the oft-quoted case of the .38 (a 1D6+1RKA) --- you cannot kill
a healthy normal outright, even with hit location. In the same vein, I
have interpreted the limit on adding STR to an HKA as necessary to
balance the fact that only Resistant Defense applies to the BODY.
Perhaps this also represents an intuition that, once you have been
impaled, additional STR does little to enhance the damage.
Options that I can see:
1) Buy additional dice of HKA with the -1 1/4 limitation "only via STR".
These dice do not count towards the HKA, but allow additional STR to
increase the damage. I would allow a -1 1/2 limitation if the character
does not normally possess the STR to fill the new dice.
2) Buy the weapon as a multipower:
11 Multipower Reserve OAF
1u 1D6 HKA 0 END
1u 5D6 HA 0 END
Now your 60 STR character can get a 2D6K or a 17D6N attack.
3) Simply allow the 60 STR brick to use his additional STR as a
simultaneous normal attack: 2D6K and 9D6N, coordinated inherently. Of
course, this might leave the knife stuck in the body of the victim who
just got knocked back a few inches.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 18:29:16 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 12:10 PM 11/3/97 -0800, Mark Lemming wrote:
>After doing a quick amount of research I found this website. (I didn't
>want to dig through my own comics.)
>
>Webaddresses and text:
>
>http://www.napanet.net/~mwilcox/Equitment.html
>
<horror story of supervehicle snipped>
>------
>There's also a picture. I also remember that Spiderman didn't know how
>to drive at the time and I think the car only lasted a few issues.
>
Oh. Well.
- Jerry
But thanks for doing the work... (I might actually go look at it...
<shudder>) : )
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 18:37:19 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV: Beast-drawn vehicles
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At 08:15 PM 11/3/97, qts wrote:
>On Sun, 02 Nov 1997 21:44:26 +0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>>qts wrote:
<suggestions for dinosaur powered vehicles>
>>>Hehehe! You could also arguably make the Dinos SFX...
>>>
>>Good point. But this would work best in a Superheroic game.
>
>Which is the main market.
>
Yes, but Bob wants to make this compatible with the other stuff Hero put
out... (I think) What about Western Hero and unhitching your horse (like I
mention later). Really, unless you have a specific mechanic for
horses/raptors/people pulling vehicles, you *have* to use them as SFX. And
then the various thing(s) pulling it won't be able to act on their own, get
loose, do *anything* besides pull the damn thing, or even get hit (beyond
standard vehicular damage).
>For non-superhero stuff, you don't have the dinos as SFX
>
What do you have them as? I don't see any specific rules (right now) for
pulling a vehicle. All vehicles of certain weights would be lifted by a
certain STR, and that's it. I was just suggesting this to Bob... I don't
own Western Hero, and actually am curious about rules on the horses in
there... thinking of throwing in some Texas Ranger supers in my game world,
maybe.
>
>>rope attached to a pin through the skin in his arm (I can forward the
>>relevant part of the e-mail where I was invited to this event).
>
>Ick!
>
Yeah, that's what I thought, too. Concerning this man, my brother said,
"Well, it's all scar tissue by now, anyway."
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 18:46:50 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV: Beast-drawn Vehicles
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At 08:20 PM 11/3/97, qts wrote:
>On Sun, 02 Nov 1997 13:43:41 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>>At 08:38 PM 11/2/97, qts wrote:
>>>Hehehe! You could also arguably make the Dinos SFX...
>>
>> Arguably, yes, yes, with INT and EGO -- except that Dinos would take
>>STUN, which is beyond the scope of a vehicle.
>
>Yes, there's a fine dividing line between a vehicle and a robot.
>
Well, dinos *still* wouldn't be Robots, or even Automatons. They'd probably
be written up similarly to the sample animals in the BBB. (I don't own any
other books with animals, sorry.) But for a better example, horses and
carriages. (No, I don't own Western Hero, either.) I don't know if there
are any rules out there for this, but I don't see them in the BBB. What
mechanic do you use for having a wagon (buy as a vehicle w/ no movement? or
max movement, only when pulled as a limitation?) and having a horse (bought
as a Follower, yes?) and then hitching your horse to your wagon? Or having
your chinese manservant (Follower) pull your rickshaw (Vehicle, thanks for
the word, qts)? Or wrangling your Raptors (Followers) into the harnesses of
your chariot(Vehicle)?
And, right now, if my Brick wants to *pull* that car over here, he has to
lift it completely anyway? He doesn't get bonuses/penalties for pulling it
front/back/sideways?
That's what I meant. If this is beyond the scope of the book, let me know.
But I still find it interesting.
And I still don't know how to fight from horseback (IRL or the game)...
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 18:54:08 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV: Fuel Comsumption
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At 05:06 PM 11/3/97 -0500, David Fair wrote:
>>>>Also, I'd love to see a consistent way of handling limited fuel. I do fuel
>>>>capacity as a Physical Limitation, myself.
>>>
>>> As I think I've mentioned elsewhere (and you probably just hadn't seen
>>>it when you wrote this), I'm handling it as a variation of Dependence.
>>
>>Isn't it just an END reserve?
>>
>The problem with modeling it as an END Reserve, is that it is too complex
>for use long-term.
>
>Let's talk fighter jets, the F-15 Eagle & the F-16 Falcon.
<snipped intelligent conversation and what I assume are well reserched stats>
>If you model fuel needs as a END reserve, then you have to buy SCADS of
>reserves (with no REC, since it's Fuel, not a battery) to model the range
>of either craft. But the end reserve needs to diminish faster at lower
>altitudes, faster at high accel/de-accel rates (those afterburners look
>cool, but eat fuel like nobodys business), and faster with larger
>payloads or wind resistance.
>
Oo. Ick. Yes, I can't help but agree. But for ground vehicles, this would
probably work better, right? And I *know* there are different gas mileages
for city and road, but they're close...
>This last paragraph is the problem, and is, IMHO, too much for the poor
>GM to deal with. Setting it up as a dependancy or a phys lim, means it
>comes in to play when the GM decides.
>
And pretty much just as a plot device. I think qts was just looking for a
mechanic to utilize. I wouldn't mind one myself, but I don't want to give
Mr. Greenwade an embolism.
(Yes, Phys Lims and Dependences are acceptable to me.)
>PS. Remember that pilots like to land with enough fuel to do several
>approach & landing sequences. If they know they'll burn 4,000 lbs on the
>return trip, they'll head back when they get down to 6-7,000 lbs of fuel
>left, not when they get down to 4,100 lbs.
>
And the actual effective range for a fighter or bomber is only how far it
can go on 1/3 of its fuel supply... 1/3 to get there, 1/3 to fight with,
and 1/3 to get home.
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 19:01:36 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV: Remote Control
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At 02:20 PM 11/3/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 11:54 AM 11/3/97 -0800, Duane Morris wrote:
>>Actually, that is what I was thinking in my original Mind control idea.
>>The reason that I suggested Mind Control, as opposed to Mind Link, is what
>>happens if one person/group tries to cut in <take control of> a vehicle
>>that someone else is operating remotely??
>
> The problem with using Mind Control as the base Power is that the target
>does not even want to resist in any way, and resistance is the assumption
>in that Power. With Mind Link, all you get is the giving of instructions,
>and that's all you need.
> But cutting in on someone else can be done with Mind Control.
>
Well, the only reason I would steer away would be the cost... so your
computer isn't resisting you, but it's resisting the other guys. So, for
you it lowers its ECV to 0 and "is inclined to do" the actions you tell him,
anyway (except for actions it *can't* perform). For others, it has X ECV,
where this is its normal ECV (whatever ECV a computer has... would be a
function of its complexity and security codes, I think). It is also,
possibly, "normally against doing" what other remotes tell it. This seems
to help what you were saying, but I still wouldn't use it, because of the
prohibitive cost.
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 19:04:56 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
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At 01:51 PM 11/3/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> For that matter, I can point to at least one example of a motorcycle
>gang showing up in a Western.
>
Brisco! And he kept one of the "mechanical horses," too, didn't he?
- Jerry, whose opinion is that The Adventures of Brisco County, Jr was
really a Sci-Fi show, masquerading as a Western...
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 97 09:06:15 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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On 10/31/97 5:53 AM, Jeremiah Driscoll (jdriscol@vt.edu) Said:
>>Is there any reason you couldn't give everyone, say 25 "Everyman" points
>>for a personal vehicle?
>>
>Wow. That's wonderfully simple. And I really really like it. But it
>raises a few questions:
Actually, I've thought about it some, and I like it more now. I would
give everyone a base amount & a multiple of their points spent on wealth
to use for vehicles. What multiple would depend on the campaign world.
Example 20 Pt. base + 3x Wealth, 25 Pt base + 2x Wealth
Wealth Vehicle Everyman Points
-10 0 (actually -10) 5
- 5 5 15
0 20 25
5 35 35
10 50 45
>1) Are these vehicles limited to "real world" vehicles, or at least vehicles
>that the are available to the public in the game world? (This is to prevent
>characters with a high-tech background getting a really useful flying
>vehicle or... ugh ...even an XDM vehicle for "free.")
I would limit the tech-level to what the character actully would have
access to in the campaign, ie the gadgeteer might have a hover-car, but
the super-soldier probably wouldn't.
>2) Which type of "Everyman" points are these? The ones that may be improved
>upon (like Native Language, PS, and KS) or the ones that have to be "bought
>over" (like Stealth, Concealment, et al)? (Thanks to Robert West for
>pointing out the difference.)
er, um, ah, yeah. I would say that they would be the kind you can
improve? I guess? It is a tough call. When you go to buy a car, you have
to pay for it all over again, and if it is a second car, you have no
trade-in. I dunno.
>3) I assume, then, that "unused" Everyman points for the Vehicle are lost?
Yea, though if you wanted to be really nice you could let them take a
disad for 5-10 points that said "Phys lim. No Reliable Transportation."
>4) Would the "Everyman" Transport Familiarity automatically reflect this
>choice of vehicle? I know that, in a Superheroic game, you don't have to
>spend points to be familiar with items you payed points for... but these
>are "Everyman" points, after all.
Sure, and you would probably have to assume the existance (if
genre-appropriate) of a license to operate the vehicle (unless the
vehicle were rare enogh that this would constitute a perk, then they
should have to pay), or of an employee/spouse with the liscense to
operate the vehicle.
>5) How would you rule that the character with average wealth has the same
>amount of "Everyman" points to spend on a vehicle as, say, the son of an
>incredibly wealthy supporter of the Shadow Conspiracy holding a puppet
>government in Slovakia who has embezzled Billions of dollars from his
>father? (A character in my current game...)
See above thoughts...
| David A. Fair
Think Different | SDS International
| dfair@sdslink.com
From: zz@znpgler.arg (Matthew Mactyre)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes
Subject: In Praise of Bob Quinlan
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 14:17:45 GMT
Organization: *
Reply-To: zz@znpgler.arg
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I was poking around on http://www.october.com, maintained by Bob
Quinlan, and was once again struck by the amount of Hero information
that he has made available. The site initially looks sparse, (it is a
low graphic site) but as you dig deeper you'll find a large amount of
information, playtest material, characters, etc. Bob has even set up
a small news server, which is exclusively Hero oriented. There isn't
much there yet, but it is a great place for Hero gamers to meet, ask
questions and exchange ideas.
Bob has maintained this site, and the direct dial-in BBS for years and
deserves recognition for the time, energy and money he continues to
put into Hero. I remember when the Red October BBS was the only place
where gamers could discuss up-coming releases, and look at new
material.
So, if you are looking for a great source of Hero information, a new
campaign idea, or just want to lurk on the newsgroups, drop by
october.com . Thanks Bob and keep up the good work.
Regards,
**************
Matthew Mactyre
E-mail address is in ROT13 as an antispam precaution.
Sorry, but you are going to have to decode it if you
want to write me directly.
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com>
Subject: Re: ...and then, there was Light.
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 09:25:59 -0500
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If light wants to take 1/2 damage with the possibility of full damage,
then I'd allow the move-through. He can't add his movement, though, if
he doesn't take the risk of being effected.
Actually, though, since he's only "mostly desolid" at this point (since
if he doesn't burn through, he bangs into), I'd just tell him to buy his
desolid in a multipower with a forcefield, and make it a normal solid
move through.
Dave Mattingly
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 06:41:59 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Help with TUSV
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At 12:04 AM 11/3/97 -0500, Egyptoid@aol.com wrote:
>>>considered Change Environment (or Images), but some examples of real world
>>>gear would be nice.
>> As I look the above list over, I can think of where every bit of
>>equipment you list is discussed somewhere in the book, either in the
>>vehicle creation chapter or in the Sourcebook section on sample equipment.
>
>and please tell us how much it costs.
>Many of the vehicles charts in supplements
>simply list the relevant combat stats,
>and conspicuously absent are the
>total active or real costs of the vehicles listed.
>thanks in advance.
That's one thing that's bugged me about some of the past stuff too. I
make sure to include all stats, and even enough information that the reader
can tell how I put the stuff together in case they want to alter it.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 06:47:31 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV (fwd)
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At 08:10 PM 11/2/97 -0800, Captain Spith wrote:
> I have always held fast that Headlights (or lightbars, etc.) were
>light illusions. These need not be terribly expensive, since there's no
>big worry about the illusion being 'seen through', and they are on the
>outside of a vehicle, so should get vehicle-focus bonus, and probably
>'fragile' as well. Perhaps even some form of Area Affect-Cone/Explosion
>for headlights.
My own basic take on lighting is to use Images, and the element that is
normally taken as a penalty for PER to see through is taken as a bonus to
PER to see anything at all.
> A Speaker would be a sonic illusion, with mostly the same limitations-
>outside of vehicle, fragile (possibly). Again, the 'integrity' of the
>'illusion' would not be important; nobody mistakes a loudspeaker as
>being the position of the actual character....
Similar take on loudspeakers: no penalty on PER to penetrate the
illusion, but a bonus to PER to hear it in the first place.
> Air conditioning, Heater, Little Tree®, cigarette lighter should
>generally be simple SFX, unless they result in significant benefit to
>the characters. Also remember that SFX CAN provide occasional benefit
>to characters, but only rarely. Just because the air conditioner clears
>the evil pheremones out of the Good Guy's area once in his 8 months of
>gaming, doesn't mean it has to be paid for in points.
---
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From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV: VPP
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 09:48:02 -0500
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At 01:01 PM 11/1/97 +1000, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
>also, what about a Variable Vehicle Pool? (to represent a whole
workshop
>or bat-garage) it sound powerplay-ey, but I did it successfully with a
1-to-1
>points scale, and a looooong wait for point-replacement. .
Bob wrote:
>A VPP for Vehicles? I'd have to leave that to GM judgement. I
wouldn't
>advise it in general, and its application would be so "grey" that I'd
>have to leave it in the hands of the GM (unless you have some
>good guidelines for it).
I've seen this idea used well, myself. A character who was constantly
bringing a different type of vehicle. Or that just happened to find the
type of vehicle he wanted unoccupied sitting around the corner with the
keys still in it.
I didn't have a problem with it. After all, most super characters can
fly/teleport/etc., so who cares if someone else has a lot of cars? And
they require the vehicle rules, too. It's not just +10" Running with 8x
NCM through a focus (which I've also seen used for vehicles that can't
be attacked for whatever reason) -- the turn modes, driving skills, etc.
are all needed.
I've also seen the idea used for a follower pool. A jungle-man character
had would show up with a tiger one game, a python the next, etc.
Dave Mattingly
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV - Added features
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 09:57:36 -0500
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Bob wrote:
>though I can't quite work out the tires and like the rest of the
>Hero universe I'm not sure about the best way to build an oil slick
>short of a whole new Power (which, strictly speaking, would be
>the purview of a different book).
Since we're talking about just vehicles here, I wonder if we might go
with a dispel versus driving skill (with AE, trigger, etc.)?
>I have just recently realized that I'm going to have to do some extra
>work for "mini" vehicles like jetboots, hoverboards, and the like.
One of the most fun vehicles I ever did was for a magical surfer. It
seems that a magic lamp was found by a surfer dude, who gained the
ability to get three wishes per day (VPP changeable 3 times per day).
And along the way, he ended up with lots of magic gadgets (charmed
amulet, magic sword, etc.).
But the one that everyone remembers him for is his flying carpet, which
he did not ride sitting down. He "surfed" on it.
Dave Mattingly
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 09:59:03 -0500
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org>
Subject: Multilingual Telepathy?
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> no, i think the phrase i was looking for was 'anal retentive hypocrites who
> attribute obsessive use of spell-checkers to good nature despite their
> own endlessly negative attitude'.
Alright,
This thread has sunk into the realm of personal insults, which are really not
what this list is about. Can I ask all involved to call it quits, please?
Geoff Speare
List admin
geoff@omg.org
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 07:03:19 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy?
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At 10:55 AM 11/3/97 +1000, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
>>I do not wish to sound adversarial about this, but is there a
>>particular reason you don't use a spellchecker? If it is your
>>software, then, most likely, you can find a better free one out there.
>
>spellcheck my MAIL? what are you people, mechanoids?
To answer both questions: Michael, if you ever get the chance to
upgrade from Eudora Light to Eudora Pro, that version of the program does
have a spell checker.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 07:07:27 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: STR + HKA, Adv & Lim
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Captain Spith wrote:
>
> > does some nasty damage (1d6 KA [penetrating, armor piercing; OAF]).
> > He has a 60 STR.
> > He does 2d6 KA penetrating, armor piercing...
> > ...or am I wrong.
>
> Yes, that's right. Just remember that when adding STR to a HKA, if
> the KA has advantages, the STR must accommodate the advantage cost as
> well;
> To add STR enough to double the 1D6 Penetrating(+1/2)AP(+1/2)HKA, you
> must use 30 STR to match the 30 active points in the HKA. The
While I agree that this is the rule used by everyone, and that any
other interpretation would be silly, I don't find it under the
description of HKA. In what obscure corner have they hidden this?
I would caveat that the advantages apply to the *damage dice* rolled for
the STR, not to the STR itself. Thus, STR does not acquire Reduced END
just because it is being used with an HKA.
> limitation has no bearing on STR used.
Again, the same caveat applies: Reduced Penetration would certainly apply
to the additional damage dice done by STR.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 20:08:36 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: RE: Thermonecular Devices
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At 12:10 AM 11/4/97 UT, Jeff Tolle wrote:
<I wrote the first part>
>>Point well taken. Kal could take it... but had he ever? I mean, had he,
>>Pre-Crisis, had to take a nuke on the chin? And what happened to everything
>>around him when the nuke went off?
>
>He Sure did!! It was in the Dark Knight series! A wonderful comic book! And
>even though he took it on the chin, it put a real hurtin on him!!!! In this
>instance, he grabbed the bomb, and was holding it when it went off. He was
>cut off from the suns rays from the blast, and that was perhaps what hurt him
>most.
>
Okay, but this wasn't Pre-Crisis, or Post-Crisis, it was an imaginary story
of a possible future (yes, I know; some writers were working towards it,
they made GA lose his hand. But now Ollie's dead, so I really doubt that
it'll fly).
And I think it would be a slight contrivance to say there was no
environmental damage because of the nuke. Besides, the Dark Knight Returns
is hardly a "standard" comic book world... and my point was as much about
screwing w/ a campaign world as killing PCs.
- Jerry
Waitaminute! Trigon!!! You're Raven's dad!
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 20:11:09 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV: Bibliography
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At 07:09 PM 11/3/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>Bob Greenwade wrote:
>> And then there's always the funky stuff the Ninja Turtles have (and I
>> think they're the only superhero team to get around on a blimp).
>
> Well, the Rescue Rangers weren't exactly a superhero team, but
>they had a sort of blimp.
>
You kidding me? Of course they were... they had a Brick, a Gadgeteer, a
Detective, um... a character w/ Shrinking and Flight (okay, more shrinking
than the others, okay?), and, um... a comedic sidekick for the Detective.
(Those would be Monty, Gadget, Chip, Zipper?, and Dale.) Sounds like a
superhero team to me... and look at the villains they fought!
- Jerry
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:21:58 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Comic book martial a
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>Actually, levels give you superior flexibility. For instance, for 9pts
>you can get +3 DEX and a +1 OCV/DCV... for the same 9 pts you can get
>3 Martial Arts (assume a small number of manuevers) good for +3 OCV or
>+3 DCV or some combination. Depending on situations and tactics, one
>character or the other might have the advantage, DEX doesn't win hands
>down.
Maybe, but 3 3point levels ONLY gives +3 OCV or DCV (or any combo equal to
three). 3 points of DEX gives 2/3 the levels (+1OCV/DCV all the time), plus
more SPD, you act faster in the phase, and have better DEX rolls (probably).
If you want to compare benefits, I'll take the 3 points of DEX every time...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You know, I feel pretty good."
"Yeah, me too. I've got a real positive attitude."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 07:27:34 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: In Praise of Bob Quinlan
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At 02:17 PM 11/3/97 GMT, Matthew Mactyre wrote:
>I was poking around on http://www.october.com, maintained by Bob
>Quinlan, and was once again struck by the amount of Hero information
>that he has made available. The site initially looks sparse, (it is a
>low graphic site) but as you dig deeper you'll find a large amount of
>information, playtest material, characters, etc. Bob has even set up
>a small news server, which is exclusively Hero oriented. There isn't
>much there yet, but it is a great place for Hero gamers to meet, ask
>questions and exchange ideas.
>
>Bob has maintained this site, and the direct dial-in BBS for years and
>deserves recognition for the time, energy and money he continues to
>put into Hero. I remember when the Red October BBS was the only place
>where gamers could discuss up-coming releases, and look at new
>material.
>
>So, if you are looking for a great source of Hero information, a new
>campaign idea, or just want to lurk on the newsgroups, drop by
>october.com . Thanks Bob and keep up the good work.
Just briefly, though it admittedly may be a waste of bandwidth for me to
quote everything Michael wrote and then say nothing more than that I echo
the sentiment and endorse the site, I now do so. :-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 07:33:48 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV - Added features
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At 09:57 AM 11/3/97 -0500, Dave Mattingly wrote:
>Bob wrote:
>>though I can't quite work out the tires and like the rest of the
>>Hero universe I'm not sure about the best way to build an oil slick
>>short of a whole new Power (which, strictly speaking, would be
>>the purview of a different book).
>
>Since we're talking about just vehicles here, I wonder if we might go
>with a dispel versus driving skill (with AE, trigger, etc.)?
Normally I'd say sure, but a lot of what I'm trying to do in this book
is better unify the vehicle rules with everything else.
Part of what I may do (and I just thought of this over the weekend,
after finally seeing "Batman & Robin" on video and getting a kick out of
Mr. Freeze's nuclear Zamboni) is use the Transform Power to create oil
slicks, ice patches, and stuff like that, then create separate rules for
trying to move on said areas.
>>I have just recently realized that I'm going to have to do some extra
>>work for "mini" vehicles like jetboots, hoverboards, and the like.
>
>One of the most fun vehicles I ever did was for a magical surfer. It
>seems that a magic lamp was found by a surfer dude, who gained the
>ability to get three wishes per day (VPP changeable 3 times per day).
>And along the way, he ended up with lots of magic gadgets (charmed
>amulet, magic sword, etc.).
>
>But the one that everyone remembers him for is his flying carpet, which
>he did not ride sitting down. He "surfed" on it.
I do already have a mention of flying carpets built as vehicles. That
picture you describe, though, is definitely classic!
What was really going through my mind, though, was those hoverboards (or
whatever they were called) from Back to the Future, Part II.
---
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Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 09:37:13 -0600
From: Ned <ned@ameritech.net>
Reply-To: ned@ameritech.net
Organization: Preferred Company
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
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Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>
> David Fair wrote:
> >On 10/31/97 11:25 AM, Tim R. Gilberg (trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu) Said:
> >
> >>> So, fix the rules for normals, then let people buy a normal vehicle and
> >>> soup them up.
> >>> a 50 point charcter can't own a car and have skills. that's just silly.
> >>
> >> Right. For that reason, I've never charged for 'normal' vehicle
> >>with no real combat effect. They're there for SFX. One character had a
> >>sky blue Dodge Dart ('76, I believe). My character had a Herley.
> >
> >Is there any reason you couldn't give everyone, say 25 "Everyman" points
> >for a personal vehicle?
> >
> Wow. That's wonderfully simple. And I really really like it. But it
> raises a few questions:
> 1) Are these vehicles limited to "real world" vehicles, or at least vehicles
> that the are available to the public in the game world? (This is to prevent
> characters with a high-tech background getting a really useful flying
> vehicle or... ugh ...even an XDM vehicle for "free.")
> 2) Which type of "Everyman" points are these? The ones that may be improved
> upon (like Native Language, PS, and KS) or the ones that have to be "bought
> over" (like Stealth, Concealment, et al)? (Thanks to Robert West for
> pointing out the difference.)
> 3) I assume, then, that "unused" Everyman points for the Vehicle are lost?
> 4) Would the "Everyman" Transport Familiarity automatically reflect this
> choice of vehicle? I know that, in a Superheroic game, you don't have to
> spend points to be familiar with items you payed points for... but these
> are "Everyman" points, after all.
> 5) How would you rule that the character with average wealth has the same
> amount of "Everyman" points to spend on a vehicle as, say, the son of an
> incredibly wealthy supporter of the Shadow Conspiracy holding a puppet
> government in Slovakia who has embezzled Billions of dollars from his
> father? (A character in my current game...)
>
> - Jerry
Hey! Don't forget the "Spider Buggy". Jonny Storm aka the Human Torch
made it fir Spidey
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 20:46:04 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV: Bibliography
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At 05:38 PM 11/3/97 -0800, Mark Lemming wrote:
>Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>>
>> > And then there's always the funky stuff the Ninja Turtles have
>> (and I
>> > think they're the only superhero team to get around on a blimp).
>>
>> Well, the Rescue Rangers weren't exactly a superhero team, but
>> they had a sort of blimp.
>>
>And the Idea Men from the Tick aren't heroes, but they had a blimp.
>
Well, yeah, since you reminded me, The Deadly Bulb (aka Pig-leg) had a hot
air balloon... In the shape of a light bulb, no less.
- Jerry
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:17:33 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV: Mass Combat
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I finally tracked down the Adventurers Club mass combat rules. They're
written by George Macdonald, and they're in the Hero System column (p 44
ff) of AC #7.
While I was at it, I reread the Fantasy Hero Companion rules to remind
myself why I disliked them so much. The FH mass combat rules revolve
almost entirely around morale; the only effect damage has is to make a
unit do a morale check. Damage is determined after the battle, according
to a grossly overgeneralized chart (Units which have simply entered combat
take 1% casualties, those forced to make a morale roll take 5%, those
"disrupted" take 10%, "scattered" units take 20%, and routed units take
100% casualties.) Even then, the definition of a casualty is left to GM
discretion - casualties might be dead, wounded, lost, or AWOL. I'm very
annoyed by a mass combat system with no real system for determining who
dies in battle; not only is it one of the basic points of a combat system,
it's also one of the most dramatic elements of a battle.
The absolute dependence on morale also leads to some absurdities like
automata being required to make morale checks. In the words of FHC, "While
certainly fearless, automata aren't very good at initiating actions, and
quickly become disorganized and scattered in battle." Sure, that works for
stereotypical zombies, but what if I want highly intelligent undead in my
world, or an army of combat robots?
To get back to TUSV, I suspect morale should be a lesser consideration
with vehicles than with foot troops. Not having been in either sort of
combat, I can't speak for the reality of the matter, but fictional
dogfights seem to lean more toward tactical retreats than toward routs.
George Macdonald's system in AC, incidentally, is based largely on the
concept of group attacks acting like Autofire. I like this kernel idea
better, though for general use the system suffers in having NO system for
morale. On the other hand, maybe it doesn't need to add one, since the
Hero Presence Attack rules are already such a cool device for
psychological effects in battle.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 08:46:31 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV: Mass Combat
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At 11:17 AM 11/3/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>
>I finally tracked down the Adventurers Club mass combat rules. They're
>written by George Macdonald, and they're in the Hero System column (p 44
>ff) of AC #7.
Thanks, Bill! Now I know what to look for.
>While I was at it, I reread the Fantasy Hero Companion rules to remind
>myself why I disliked them so much. The FH mass combat rules revolve
>almost entirely around morale; the only effect damage has is to make a
>unit do a morale check. Damage is determined after the battle, according
>to a grossly overgeneralized chart (Units which have simply entered combat
>take 1% casualties, those forced to make a morale roll take 5%, those
>"disrupted" take 10%, "scattered" units take 20%, and routed units take
>100% casualties.) Even then, the definition of a casualty is left to GM
>discretion - casualties might be dead, wounded, lost, or AWOL. I'm very
>annoyed by a mass combat system with no real system for determining who
>dies in battle; not only is it one of the basic points of a combat system,
>it's also one of the most dramatic elements of a battle.
I was interpreting it as taking place at the time of an encounter, but
now that you mention it I think you're right. I'll go fix that right away,
and add more to make some more definite determinations about the number and
type of casualties.
>The absolute dependence on morale also leads to some absurdities like
>automata being required to make morale checks. In the words of FHC, "While
>certainly fearless, automata aren't very good at initiating actions, and
>quickly become disorganized and scattered in battle." Sure, that works for
>stereotypical zombies, but what if I want highly intelligent undead in my
>world, or an army of combat robots?
OK, so some kind of check on a Skill Roll would be in order. Those
"highly intelligent undead" might have EGO, leaving them to the normal
Morale rules. As for the combat robots (which falls under the purview of
this book), do you suppose a check against Tactics Skill would be logical?
>To get back to TUSV, I suspect morale should be a lesser consideration
>with vehicles than with foot troops. Not having been in either sort of
>combat, I can't speak for the reality of the matter, but fictional
>dogfights seem to lean more toward tactical retreats than toward routs.
I think that for game purposes the rule can probably stay the same,
though if anyone has some numbers (game numbers, that is) that seem fitting
I can put that into the updated system.
>George Macdonald's system in AC, incidentally, is based largely on the
>concept of group attacks acting like Autofire. I like this kernel idea
>better, though for general use the system suffers in having NO system for
>morale. On the other hand, maybe it doesn't need to add one, since the
>Hero Presence Attack rules are already such a cool device for
>psychological effects in battle.
Actually, Morale is somewhat different from PRE Attacks. A PRE Attack
is an intentional effort to intimidate someone (or otherwise affect their
emotional state) through force of personality. The Morale checks are to
figure out the response to taking serious damage.
And now that I think about it, the system does need to be changed in one
fundamental way. As it now stands, casualties are the result of lost
Morale, whereas it should be the other way around.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
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Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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X-Sender: scm@mail.aci.net
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 08:51:15 -0800
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <shelley@mactyre.net>
Subject: Re: In Praise of Bob Quinlan
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 07:27 AM 11/3/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 02:17 PM 11/3/97 GMT, Matthew Mactyre wrote:
[Nice things about october.com snipped.]
> Just briefly, though it admittedly may be a waste of bandwidth for me to
>quote everything Michael wrote and then say nothing more than that I echo
>the sentiment and endorse the site, I now do so. :-]
You mean Matthew, I'm sure. =) And of course I now must add, "me, too"
regarding Bob Q.
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
www.mactyre.net
Your children will see the stars.
--Robert A. Heinlein
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:01:07 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Reply-To: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV: Bibliography
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On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> On this last one, would the Quarkstar V be close enough?
> As for the rest, I will remember to include some kind of notes for
> animal-drawn vehicles; after all, one of my source fictions is "King Arthur
> and the Knights of Justice."
How about some more suggestions for the bibliography? (Though it sounds
like Bob already has plenty to do other than read or watch everything we
suggest!)
Babylon 5, Heavy Metal, and various
giant-Japanese-robots-that-may-or-may-not-turn-into-other-things (er,
mecha), have already been mentioned. Here are some more good sources:
Movies
Star Wars (of course)
Mad Max, The Road Warrior, & Beyond Thunderdome
Blue Thunder
Memphis Belle
20,000 Leagues Under the Sea (so visually cool it deserves mention
here as well as under books)
Ben Hur
Books
20,000 Leagues Under the Sea (Verne)
Around the World in 80 Days (Verne)
Larry Niven's Known Space series (lots of cool spaceships)
Heinlein's Starship Troopers (if you want to build a battlesuit as a
vehicle, that is...)
Comics
Batman, Detective Comics, etc.
Enemy Ace
Balloon Buster
Ghost Rider
Blue Beetle
Watchmen
Silver Surfer
TV
Star Trek
Knight Rider
Dr. Who
Reply-To: <scott2k@gte.net>
From: "Scott S." <scott2k@gte.net>
Subject: Density Increase
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 09:05:19 -0800
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Am I the only one who thinks the defense gained from Density Increase
should be resistant?
scott2k@gte.net
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Doing a Rule of X (Why/How)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 09:11:38 -0800 (PST)
Cc: hero-l@omg.org
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Ok, I sent my message just as I was leaving my house, so it was rushed.
Why do a rule of X?
Not as a hard and fast 'cause I don't trust you'. But as a
creation guidline. I need something I can give my players to tell them
"This is the power level I'm shooting for".
There are two options for this, make up about 50 NPC's at that
power level and pass them around so the players can spend weeks going
through them to try and understand what I'm getting at.
Or;
Give them a set of guidline values and trust them to use them
right.
So, why not use the method in the BBB? Cause I find it doesn't
work. The BBB suggests active point limits, and little else. This gives
you a group full of guys with Xd6 attacks, Y OCV/DCV, and Z PD/ED.
All of them having the same X,Y, and Z. Which I find to be bland
and boring.
The rule of X says something to the effect that rather than set
a max limit we set an average. Then, for every so much my damage goes
above this average, my OCV must go an effectivly equivalent amount below
it.
The formula does the same thing to defense.
Contructed properly, this formula can make a great guideline for
setting power levels. It helps you avoid an absolute max or min, avoids
letting the entire group of characters end up with the same numbers under
diferent names, and it still ensures they're all on a similar power level.
However, the formula as given in FUzion does not work, but the
idea does.
Rook
Also known as Arcady on #herochat, #Fuzionchat, #gurps, #V&V,
and #SuperHeroChat in DALnet IRC
Super Hero Links Page:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
X-Sender: mlknight@pop.mindspring.com
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 10:12:36 -0700
From: Michelle Knight <mlknight@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: In Praise of Bob Quinlan
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At 02:17 PM 11/3/97 GMT, Matthew Mactyre wrote:
>So, if you are looking for a great source of Hero information, a new
>campaign idea, or just want to lurk on the newsgroups, drop by
>october.com . Thanks Bob and keep up the good work.
I'll second Matthew's thoughts here. It *is* a really cool place of
information for the Hero System. Bob's BBS is still alive, I believe, but
hardly anyone posts there anymore. In fact, there used to be two BBSs,
Red October Alpha (Sunnyvale, CA) and Red October Bravo (Austin, TX), but
unfortunately R.O. Bravo had to be shut down due to non-use. What I
really like is that now you can telnet to the BBS through either the web
site or directly, provided you have a telnet client. So now what was once
a long-distance call can be directly accessed through your Internet
connection.
I encourage everyone here to go to the BBS (as well as the web site) and
check it out. Let's show Bob our support for his efforts.
Michelle
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: ...and then, there was Light.
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> writes:
MS> I would argue that if someone has a Damage Shield and they physically
MS> impact with someone, then the Damage Shield should affect the target.
Except that the BBB states otherwise. Someone with a Damage Shield must be
hit, or use a grab maneuver for the Damage Shield to come into play. It is
quite explicit on this, common sense be damned :).
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover
\ head.
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:14:34 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV: Mass Combat
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On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> At 11:17 AM 11/3/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
> >
> >I finally tracked down the Adventurers Club mass combat rules. They're
> >written by George Macdonald, and they're in the Hero System column (p 44
> >ff) of AC #7.
>
> Thanks, Bill! Now I know what to look for.
>
You're welcome.
> >While I was at it, I reread the Fantasy Hero Companion rules to remind
> >myself why I disliked them so much. The FH mass combat rules revolve
> >almost entirely around morale...
[SNIP]
> > I'm very
> >annoyed by a mass combat system with no real system for determining who
> >dies in battle; not only is it one of the basic points of a combat system,
> >it's also one of the most dramatic elements of a battle.
>
> I was interpreting it as taking place at the time of an encounter, but
> now that you mention it I think you're right. I'll go fix that right away,
> and add more to make some more definite determinations about the number and
> type of casualties.
>
I'm glad to hear you're fixing that. It might be a tough fix, since morale
is so central to the FH system, so I'll be curious to see how you do it.
> >The absolute dependence on morale also leads to some absurdities like
> >automata being required to make morale checks. In the words of FHC, "While
> >certainly fearless, automata aren't very good at initiating actions, and
> >quickly become disorganized and scattered in battle." Sure, that works for
> >stereotypical zombies, but what if I want highly intelligent undead in my
> >world, or an army of combat robots?
>
> OK, so some kind of check on a Skill Roll would be in order. Those
> "highly intelligent undead" might have EGO, leaving them to the normal
> Morale rules. As for the combat robots (which falls under the purview of
> this book), do you suppose a check against Tactics Skill would be logical?
>
I'm not sure. Since the system as it stands requires only a Morale check,
and not a Tactics check, for normal units, it suggests that the problem of
emotional impact far outweights the rational problems of keeping a unit
organized under adverse conditions. It would be logical if normal units
were required to make BOTH a Morale and a Tactics roll, but that would be
cumbersome. There should be some (big) advantage to troops with no regard
for their personal safety.
And yes, "highly intelligent undead" might have EGO, but they might not. I
like the Hero System when it lets me create characters (and species)
according to the concept I want, not forcing the "typical case" upon me.
It's entirely within the scope of fantasy fiction to have a race of
intelligent, organized beings with absolutely no sense of self and no
instinct for self-preservation. These creatures would clearly have some
powerful advantages on the battlefield.
> >To get back to TUSV, I suspect morale should be a lesser consideration
> >with vehicles than with foot troops. Not having been in either sort of
> >combat, I can't speak for the reality of the matter, but fictional
> >dogfights seem to lean more toward tactical retreats than toward routs.
>
> I think that for game purposes the rule can probably stay the same,
> though if anyone has some numbers (game numbers, that is) that seem fitting
> I can put that into the updated system.
>
I'd be interested in hearing the opinions of any military buffs out there.
Not being a military buff myself, I could live with the rules either way.
> >George Macdonald's system in AC, incidentally, is based largely on the
> >concept of group attacks acting like Autofire. I like this kernel idea
> >better, though for general use the system suffers in having NO system for
> >morale. On the other hand, maybe it doesn't need to add one, since the
> >Hero Presence Attack rules are already such a cool device for
> >psychological effects in battle.
>
> Actually, Morale is somewhat different from PRE Attacks. A PRE Attack
> is an intentional effort to intimidate someone (or otherwise affect their
> emotional state) through force of personality. The Morale checks are to
> figure out the response to taking serious damage.
I'm not entirely sure I agree with you. I could see adjusting PRE Attacks
according to the damage done to the target, both in individual and in mass
combat. I'd consider it part of the extra dice for "More Powerful" and/or
"Violent Action." And the response to taking serious damage *is* a
psychological one (based of EGO, not INT), and therefore might be swayed
by the attacker's force of personality.
> And now that I think about it, the system does need to be changed in one
> fundamental way. As it now stands, casualties are the result of lost
> Morale, whereas it should be the other way around.
Yes, absolutely. Though it is possible to hurt the enemy's morale without
damaging them. Fake silhouettes of tanks, surprise and show of power, and
dramatic soliloquies ("God sent me") all work nicely as PRE attacks that
hurt morale. The FH rules do mention PRE attacks, but don't use them as
any kind of modifier for morale rolls; it seems to me that there should be
some kind of adjustment in some cases.
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy?
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Date: 03 Nov 1997 13:17:00 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "L" == Legionair <Legionair@aol.com> writes:
L> I don't think that the spoken tongue has anything to do with Telepathy.
It has nothing to do with how language or thought works. It has everything
to do with how the game mechanics work. A power cannot (or at least should
not) be used to duplicate the effects of another power. Telepathy cannot
(or at least should not) be used to duplicate the effects of Universal
Translator.
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\
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:42:41 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: ...and then, there was Light.
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On 3 Nov 1997, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> >>>>> "MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> writes:
>
> MS> I would argue that if someone has a Damage Shield and they physically
> MS> impact with someone, then the Damage Shield should affect the target.
>
> Except that the BBB states otherwise. Someone with a Damage Shield must be
> hit, or use a grab maneuver for the Damage Shield to come into play. It is
> quite explicit on this, common sense be damned :).
The description of Damage Shield in the BBB (pg 93) reads as thus:
"This advantage allows a character to set up a continuing shield around
him that causes damage to any target that comes into extended contact with
it."
In the next paragrapgh it states that: "Any attack that makes a succesful
hand-to-hand Attack Roll against the character with the Damage Shield
takes the damage (and possibly the Knockback) from the shield. The
character with the shield can also do the shield's damage to a target by
Grabbing him."
These two paragrahs are not mutually exclusive. Based on the first
paragrah, a damage shield *could* affect a target that is hit with a
Move-By or a Move-Through. The second paragrah simply states two ways
that the shield can come into play.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV: Mass Combat
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 14:07:08 -0500
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>It would be logical if normal units were required to make BOTH a
>Morale and a Tactics roll, but that would be cumbersome. There
>should be some (big) advantage to troops with no regard
>for their personal safety.
Something I've been considering is for army versus army combat, to make
each segment last an hour, so that post-twelves would be the end of a
normal fighting day. A hex would be, what, a mile? a county/borough? And
hit locations could represent the type of troops. A chest hit is
equivalent to taking out grunts. A leg hit is taking out transport
capability. A head hit is intelligence/leadership. The vitals would be
supply lines.
But in response to the above, I think skill versus skill has a lot of
benefit to it. Morale checks could either be a separate matter, or could
be a modifier onto tactics rolls, similar to the way presence attacks
can add to oratory.
For example, enemy troops in partial retreat = +2. To extend it a
little, your troops don't care about personal safety = +5. Your troops
aren't even alive = +10 (impossible to demoralize -- we've seen before
that +10 is impossible).
Dave Mattingly
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 11:27:27 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
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At 12:30 PM 11/3/97 +0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>>Hey! Don't forget the "Spider Buggy". Jonny Storm aka the Human Torch
>>made it fir Spidey
>>
>When was this? I was under the impression that the only time that Spidey
>actually used a vehicle was in those old 70's toys... and I thought it was
>the Spidey-mobile.
>
It was in a comic. As I recall, the Mad Tinkerer took it over, or something.
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:54:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Duane Morris <duane@turing.sci.yorku.ca>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV: Remote Control
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On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> At 12:40 PM 11/1/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
> >> What I'm thinking of for Remote Control is this: The vehicle must have
> >> an onboard computer, and the remote control device (whether hand-held,
> >> implanted in the brain, or whatever) is done as a radio Mind Link. The
> >> control tells the computer what to do, and the computer does it.
> >> Since that's a fairly close model of what actually does happen (in a
> >> way, even on radio-controlled models), I think it's probably the best.
> >
> >I like that approach, though you may want to mention that the "computer"
> >need not be a literal silicon chip machine, but rather is a reflection of
> >some kind of information-processing cabability, whether magical, organic,
> >or technological. Remote controlled vehicles, after all, might include the
> >Silver Surfer's board, flying carpets, spaceships with organic brains,
> >etc. (An organic brain doesn't even have to be sentient - Cordwainer Smith
> >had a lot of technology controlled by freeze-dried animal brains.)
>
> Good point; I'll get that in there.
Actually, that is what I was thinking in my original Mind control idea.
The reason that I suggested Mind Control, as opposed to Mind Link, is what
happens if one person/group tries to cut in <take control of> a vehicle
that someone else is operating remotely??
Duane.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Duane Morris <duane@turing.sci.yorku.ca> Dept. of Technical Services
Faculty of Pure and Applied Science Petrie Science Stores
York University, North York, Ontario M3J 1P3, CANADA
Voice: (416) 736-5244; Fax: (416) 736-5516
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 14:04:46 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy?
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> > More as a justification to ignore and disregard.
>
> so your just throwing your own ego in here? i mean, that's probably
> the most contradictory attempt at logic i've ever seen. "i'm
> just chiming in to say i'm ingoring you"? please. Tell someone
> who cares.
Actually, it was more of an observation. I'd hazard to guess that
the majority of the list isn't even reading this thread as it involves
you. I, and others in my judgement, have come to realize that reading
anything with your name in the <sent> field is a waste of time and effort.
> > Hard to believe actually. An instituation (or company or group or
> >whatever) can be judged by its members -- they are it's representatives to
> >the world. As I can only base my conduct of that university off of the
> >only representative I have seen (nmaely you), I must asume it is an
> >institution of questionable quality.
> >
>
> yes, and i'm sure your parameters (typing quality in casual emailing)
> are completly valid?
>
> I DON'T THINK SO!!
How egotistical to assume that you knew the parameters. Actually,
your spelling and typing is a first impression, your behavior, tone,
opinions, and ignorance just justify that first impression.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 12:10:10 -0800
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
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Lizard wrote:
>
> At 12:30 PM 11/3/97 +0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
> >>Hey! Don't forget the "Spider Buggy". Jonny Storm aka the Human
> Torch
> >>made it fir Spidey
> >>
> >When was this? I was under the impression that the only time that
> Spidey
> >actually used a vehicle was in those old 70's toys... and I thought
> it was
> >the Spidey-mobile.
> >
> It was in a comic. As I recall, the Mad Tinkerer took it over, or
> something.
After doing a quick amount of research I found this website. (I didn't
want to dig through my own comics.)
Webaddresses and text:
http://www.napanet.net/~mwilcox/Equitment.html
Yes, by popular demand - The Spider-Mobile. Here's one of those 'Seemed
Like A Good Idea At The Time' things which never quite took off. Looking
back I guess it was a crazy idea, especially given the traffic in
Manhattan. What chance do you think Peter would have chasing The Human
Fly down Broadway at 5 p.m. on a Friday?
Spider-Man was contacted by Carter and Lombardo, a couple of advertising
executives, are looking for ways to promote a new non-polluting engine.
Peter thinks the idea is 'first-class dumb' and he tells them where to
stick it.
Later that day, however, he finds that he owes two months back-rent
(long story, don't ask). Pressed for cash, he decides to accept the
sponsorship offer. A month later in #127, he and Human Torch start
working on the car, in a room at the Baxter Building.
Most of the work is done by hand. Of course, one of Johnny Storm's hands
contains five spot-welders, and Spider-Man can lift the whole car
without too much effort. When finished, it looks like a red and blue
beach buggy - equipped with a couple of handy-dandy crime-fighting
devices of course!
------
There's also a picture. I also remember that Spiderman didn't know how
to drive at the time and I think the car only lasted a few issues.
-Mark Lemming
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 97 20:10:27
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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X-UID: 41
On Sun, 02 Nov 1997 06:27:09 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>Also, I'd love to see a consistent way of handling limited fuel. I do fuel
>>capacity as a Physical Limitation, myself.
>
> As I think I've mentioned elsewhere (and you probably just hadn't seen
>it when you wrote this), I'm handling it as a variation of Dependence.
Isn't it just an END reserve?
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 97 20:12:21
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
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On Sun, 02 Nov 1997 06:32:27 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>> Here's a special call for help that is usually reserved for the AOL
>>>Message Folder and newsgroup folks.
>>> I've gotten approval to write The Ultimate Super Vehicle, a book
>>>designed to cover everything from the Batmobile to the Zords (and a few
>>>things beyond, like the Argo or the Enterprise -- maybe even the Titanic).
>>>With a bit of luck, it'll be ready to go out sometime this coming summer.
>>
>>YES!
>>
>>Please don't forget things like the Triceratops saddle, or the
>>Raptor-drawn chariot, cloud castles on the Fantasy front and Jules
>>Verne style spaceships. Oh, and the Nautilus.
>
> On this last one, would the Quarkstar V be close enough?
> As for the rest, I will remember to include some kind of notes for
>animal-drawn vehicles; after all, one of my source fictions is "King Arthur
>and the Knights of Justice."
I'm not familiar with Quarkstar, but I was thinking of Captain Nemo's
Nautilus as in Verne's 20,000 Leagues under the Sea
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 97 20:15:55
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
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On Sun, 02 Nov 1997 21:44:26 +0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>qts wrote:
>>>>Please don't forget things like the Triceratops saddle, or the
>>>>Raptor-drawn chariot...
>>>>
>>>Wouldn't the first two be useless w/o write-ups of the Dinos? But I like
>>>the point you made... beast-propelled vehicles...
>>
>>Hehehe! You could also arguably make the Dinos SFX...
>>
>Good point. But this would work best in a Superheroic game.
Which is the main market.
> What about fantasy/whatever?
Definitely not!
>If they Dinos are SFX, they can't get loose. If you
>treat all beast-propelled vehicles as SFX, you can't unhitch your horse from
>the wagon and ride it alone (unless the vehicle has a multiform where the
>base form is a horse with a Duplication wagon, and the Multiform is a
>horse-drawn wagon. hmmm... no, ick.)
Hehehe!
> What about those (Chinese) human-drawn chariot things?
Rickshaw
> A GUY! is SFX? I don't even know if I'd use
>it, but I'd like a rule for someone/thing being able to haul around a
>vehicle after them... even if it's just one of my bricks pulling a tank
>around, or a Martial Arts master hauling a van across and auditorium by a
For non-superhero stuff, you don't have the dinos as SFX
>rope attached to a pin through the skin in his arm (I can forward the
>relevant part of the e-mail where I was invited to this event).
Ick!
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 97 20:20:12
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
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On Sun, 02 Nov 1997 13:43:41 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 08:38 PM 11/2/97, qts wrote:
>>On Sat, 01 Nov 1997 15:56:53 +0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>>
>>>At 10:09 PM 10/31/97, qts wrote:
>>>>Please don't forget things like the Triceratops saddle, or the
>>>>Raptor-drawn chariot, cloud castles on the Fantasy front and Jules
>>>>Verne style spaceships. Oh, and the Nautilus.
>>>>
>>>Wouldn't the first two be useless w/o write-ups of the Dinos? But I like
>>>the point you made... beast-propelled vehicles...
>>
>>Hehehe! You could also arguably make the Dinos SFX...
>
> Arguably, yes, yes, with INT and EGO -- except that Dinos would take
>STUN, which is beyond the scope of a vehicle.
Yes, there's a fine dividing line between a vehicle and a robot.
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 97 20:22:30
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV (fwd)
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On Sun, 02 Nov 1997 13:46:43 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 12:54 PM 11/2/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>>On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>> At 05:36 PM 11/1/97 -0500, Daniel Pawtowski wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Other things that don't resolve well at the Champs scale: how
>>> >do you represent the off-road capabilities of a station wagon vs.
>>> >a jeep vs a Hummer vs a tank? On the rare occasions it's come up,
>>> >we usually end up saying that a better off-road ability is bought
>>> >as a higher STR for the vehicle and the GM fudges road conditions
>>> >as necessary.
>>>
>>> I like the ideas of building Skill Levels vs certain types of terrain
>>> into the vehicle to represent this.
>>
>>This is something that Steve Long uses a lot in "Eye for an Eye". Sports
>>cars and the like have Skill Levels with such modifers as "Only to
>>counteract off-road penalties" or "+3 with Ground Based Movement". Such
>>skill levels represent the excellent handeling characteristics of thge
>>vehicle in question.
>
> They're built that way, but I don't think anything explicit is ever said
>within the book (I'd have to double check). Now it will be.
>
>>One thing I find interesting, BTW, is the fact that such vehicles as an
>>Indy Car, or the F-15 have stats like a DEX of 23 or a SPD of 5. Now, a
>>normal human really isn't going to have characteristics close to these
>>numbers. Would it be considered abusive for areally experienced
>>driver/pilot to have bonuses to his DEX and/or SPD with a limitation of
>>"Only while Driving/Flying"?
>
> I wouldn't think so, at least for DEX. Nor would Lightning Reflexes be
>too bad with such a Limitation.
> However, I'm up in the air as to whether a character should be charged
>double for going over Characteristic Maxima.
Why charge the character directly? Just make the DEX and SPD Usable by
Others at the appropriate level.
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: ...and then, there was Light.
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 03 Nov 1997 16:01:08 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> writes:
MS> These two paragrahs are not mutually exclusive.
No, they are not. But they describe two different aspects of using a
Damage Shield. The first paragraph describes the "normal" use, in a
defensive capacity. The second paragraph describes how Damage Shields may
be used as an attack.
MS> Based on the first paragrah, a damage shield *could* affect a target
MS> that is hit with a Move-By or a Move-Through.
But it should not, because that is not quite how a Damage Shield works. If
a normal strike (punch) will not cause the Damage Shield to affect the
target, then a Move By or Move Through should not, either. None of these
are the "extended contact" required to make a Damage Shield work as
attacks.
This is purely a game balance thing, to prevent Damage Shields from
becoming more powerful than they should be. If you want a Move By or Move
Through that does more damage, buy a few dice of Hand to Hand Attack.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
\
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Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 13:32:06 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: ...and then, there was Light.
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At 01:12 PM 11/3/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>>>>> "MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> writes:
>
>MS> I would argue that if someone has a Damage Shield and they physically
>MS> impact with someone, then the Damage Shield should affect the target.
>
>Except that the BBB states otherwise. Someone with a Damage Shield must be
>hit, or use a grab maneuver for the Damage Shield to come into play. It is
>quite explicit on this, common sense be damned :).
Actually, it's not quite *that* explicit. Take a look at the first
sentence: "This advantage allows a character to set up a continuing shield
around him that causes damage to any target that comes into extended
contact with it." And yet, being punched by someone hardly (IMV) qualifies
as "extended contact," so what we really have here is a passage nearly as
self-contradictory and confusing as the description of Linked.
Frankly, I believe that being attacked and Grabbing someone are there
simply as "most likely examples," and anyone coming into any kind of
serious contact ("extended" or not) will take the damage.
---
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Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 13:35:29 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: ...and then, there was Light.
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At 04:01 PM 11/3/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>MS> Based on the first paragrah, a damage shield *could* affect a target
>MS> that is hit with a Move-By or a Move-Through.
>
>But it should not, because that is not quite how a Damage Shield works. If
>a normal strike (punch) will not cause the Damage Shield to affect the
>target, then a Move By or Move Through should not, either. None of these
>are the "extended contact" required to make a Damage Shield work as
>attacks.
But a normal strike *will* cause the Damage Shield to affect the target,
unless it's your assertion that successfully hitting the character who has
Damage Shield with a normal strike does not constitute a successful
hand-to-hand Attack Roll against said character.
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Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 13:47:15 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
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At 08:10 PM 11/3/97, qts wrote:
>On Sun, 02 Nov 1997 06:27:09 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>>>Also, I'd love to see a consistent way of handling limited fuel. I do fuel
>>>capacity as a Physical Limitation, myself.
>>
>> As I think I've mentioned elsewhere (and you probably just hadn't seen
>>it when you wrote this), I'm handling it as a variation of Dependence.
>
>Isn't it just an END reserve?
Doing it that way is a lot harder than it would seem. Try making out a
vehicle with 25" of Running which Costs END; even at 1/2 END, that's 2
END/Phase at full combat speed. Multiply that by a standard SPD of 3, for
6 END/turn, which is 30 END/minute, which is 1800 END/hour. For the car to
go at full speed for 5 hours (and most can last somewhat longer than that)
is 9000 END, which would cost 900 points.
On the other hand, take a Dependence that is Common (gasoline), lasts 5
hours, and immobilizes the vehicle without any damage. If we figure that
this last item is worth the equivalent of 1d6 damage, and that the fact
that the time counted is only time in use and not real time, then we come
to a nice 0-point Disadvantage that the GM can assign to all vehicles.
And now here's the kicker: If there's a vehicle that doesn't need
refueling in a campaign where this Fuel Dependence is used, then that
vehicle takes Life Support vs needing fuel (the equivalent of Does Not Eat
for regular characters).
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Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 13:48:16 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
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At 08:12 PM 11/3/97, qts wrote:
>>>Please don't forget things like the Triceratops saddle, or the
>>>Raptor-drawn chariot, cloud castles on the Fantasy front and Jules
>>>Verne style spaceships. Oh, and the Nautilus.
>>
>> On this last one, would the Quarkstar V be close enough?
>> As for the rest, I will remember to include some kind of notes for
>>animal-drawn vehicles; after all, one of my source fictions is "King Arthur
>>and the Knights of Justice."
>
>I'm not familiar with Quarkstar, but I was thinking of Captain Nemo's
>Nautilus as in Verne's 20,000 Leagues under the Sea
I know about the Nautilus (of course!).
For a look at the Quarkstar IV, see the Atlantis supplement.
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Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 13:51:39 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
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At 08:15 PM 11/3/97, qts wrote:
>>>>>Please don't forget things like the Triceratops saddle, or the
>>>>>Raptor-drawn chariot...
>>>>>
>>>>Wouldn't the first two be useless w/o write-ups of the Dinos? But I like
>>>>the point you made... beast-propelled vehicles...
>>>
>>>Hehehe! You could also arguably make the Dinos SFX...
>>>
>>Good point. But this would work best in a Superheroic game.
>
>Which is the main market.
But far from the *only* market. I may, in fact, end up supporting more
sci-fi campaigns that superhero ones.
>> What about fantasy/whatever?
>
>Definitely not!
Oh no? There are vehicles in Fantasy: flying carpets, animated golems
(the fantasy equivalent of mechas), self-propelling chariots, and the like.
For that matter, I can point to at least one example of a motorcycle
gang showing up in a Western.
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Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 13:53:27 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
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At 08:20 PM 11/3/97, qts wrote:
>>>Hehehe! You could also arguably make the Dinos SFX...
>>
>> Arguably, yes, yes, with INT and EGO -- except that Dinos would take
>>STUN, which is beyond the scope of a vehicle.
>
>Yes, there's a fine dividing line between a vehicle and a robot.
I go well over that line in what I already have in TUSV. But a dinosaur
is an animal, which is to say an organic entity, which is more a "beast of
burden" than a vehicle such as what I'm trying to cover here.
Certainly, though, something will need to be done regarding wagons,
beast mounts, and the like.
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From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 07:55:45 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy?
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At 02:04 PM 11/3/97 -0600, you wrote:
>
>
>> > More as a justification to ignore and disregard.
>>
>> so your just throwing your own ego in here? i mean, that's probably
>> the most contradictory attempt at logic i've ever seen. "i'm
>> just chiming in to say i'm ingoring you"? please. Tell someone
>> who cares.
>
> Actually, it was more of an observation. I'd hazard to guess that
>the majority of the list isn't even reading this thread as it involves
>you. I, and others in my judgement, have come to realize that reading
>anything with your name in the <sent> field is a waste of time and effort.
>
gee, that's valid! once again, just because you rationalise something
as being reasonable, doesn't mean it is- people like you dislike people
like me on pricible ,why not just admit it?
>>
>> yes, and i'm sure your parameters (typing quality in casual emailing)
>> are completly valid?
>>
>> I DON'T THINK SO!!
>
>
> How egotistical to assume that you knew the parameters. Actually,
>your spelling and typing is a first impression, your behavior, tone,
>opinions, and ignorance just justify that first impression.
>
>
see, here I was thinking that you took you first impression and let
it color you opinion of everything i did. . . .. not a SMART or FAIR
thing to do, but deffinitly an easy way to define people, yes?
> -Tim Gilberg
>
>
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 14:00:29 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV (fwd)
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At 08:22 PM 11/3/97, qts wrote:
>>>One thing I find interesting, BTW, is the fact that such vehicles as an
>>>Indy Car, or the F-15 have stats like a DEX of 23 or a SPD of 5. Now, a
>>>normal human really isn't going to have characteristics close to these
>>>numbers. Would it be considered abusive for areally experienced
>>>driver/pilot to have bonuses to his DEX and/or SPD with a limitation of
>>>"Only while Driving/Flying"?
>>
>> I wouldn't think so, at least for DEX. Nor would Lightning Reflexes be
>>too bad with such a Limitation.
>> However, I'm up in the air as to whether a character should be charged
>>double for going over Characteristic Maxima.
>
>Why charge the character directly? Just make the DEX and SPD Usable by
>Others at the appropriate level.
That's not the same thing. DEX and SPD Usable By Others (with other
appropriate modifiers) is in the book, but it's not the same thing as being
skilled enough to have extra DEX and SPD *yourself* when operating a
vehicle.
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Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 14:04:04 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV: Bibliography
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At 12:01 PM 11/3/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>> On this last one, would the Quarkstar V be close enough?
>> As for the rest, I will remember to include some kind of notes for
>> animal-drawn vehicles; after all, one of my source fictions is "King Arthur
>> and the Knights of Justice."
>
>How about some more suggestions for the bibliography? (Though it sounds
>like Bob already has plenty to do other than read or watch everything we
>suggest!)
Oh, I'll be putting out my bibliography for the list to evaluate before
this is all over!
>Movies
> Blue Thunder
> Memphis Belle
> Ben Hur
These will be added.
>Books
> 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea (Verne)
> Around the World in 80 Days (Verne)
> Larry Niven's Known Space series (lots of cool spaceships)
> Heinlein's Starship Troopers (if you want to build a battlesuit as a
>vehicle, that is...)
Ditto.
>Comics
> Batman, Detective Comics, etc.
> Enemy Ace
> Balloon Buster
> Ghost Rider
> Blue Beetle
> Watchmen
> Silver Surfer
I don't even remember which of these I have and which I don't (except
that I definitely don't have Enemy Ace or Balloon Buster).
>TV
> Star Trek
> Knight Rider
> Dr. Who
Bill, you should be ashamed of yourself for having such a brief list!
There are *so* many TV shows with cool vehicles. Personally, the bulk of
my early vehicle designs were heavily influenced by the Wacky Races, and
Tom Slick.
And then there's always the funky stuff the Ninja Turtles have (and I
think they're the only superhero team to get around on a blimp).
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Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 97 17:06:10 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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>>>Also, I'd love to see a consistent way of handling limited fuel. I do fuel
>>>capacity as a Physical Limitation, myself.
>>
>> As I think I've mentioned elsewhere (and you probably just hadn't seen
>>it when you wrote this), I'm handling it as a variation of Dependence.
>
>Isn't it just an END reserve?
>
The problem with modeling it as an END Reserve, is that it is too complex
for use long-term.
Let's talk fighter jets, the F-15 Eagle & the F-16 Falcon.
F-15 Eagle F-16 Falcon
Top Speed 1650+ MPH 1320+ MPH
Mach Rating Mach 2.5+ at 36,000ft Mach 2+ at 40,000ft
Fuel Capacity ~22,000 lbs internal ~10,000 lbs internal
Flight Ceiling 50,000 ft. 40,000 ft.
(note both planes can carry fuel in external tanks, about 20,000
additional pounds for either aircraft, if no armament or reconnaissaince
gear is carried)
Looking at this data, one might assume that the F-15 could do twice the
distance as the F-16. One would be wrong.
If both planes fly at the same altitude, same speeds, and incur the same
winds, the F-15 will have about 140% of the range of the falcon.
If both planes fly at maximum altitude, max speed, and incur the same
winds, the f-15 will have about 225% of the range of the falcon.
This is due to several factors; size (f-15 is much, much larger & almost
50% more heavy than the f-16), Engines (both have the P&W f100/P220
TurboFan, the F-15 just has 2 of them), Etc.
If you model fuel needs as a END reserve, then you have to buy SCADS of
reserves (with no REC, since it's Fuel, not a battery) to model the range
of either craft. But the end reserve needs to diminish faster at lower
altitudes, faster at high accel/de-accel rates (those afterburners look
cool, but eat fuel like nobodys business), and faster with larger
payloads or wind resistance.
This last paragraph is the problem, and is, IMHO, too much for the poor
GM to deal with. Setting it up as a dependancy or a phys lim, means it
comes in to play when the GM decides.
PS. Remember that pilots like to land with enough fuel to do several
approach & landing sequences. If they know they'll burn 4,000 lbs on the
return trip, they'll head back when they get down to 6-7,000 lbs of fuel
left, not when they get down to 4,100 lbs.
| David A. Fair
Think Different | SDS International
| dfair@sdslink.com
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 14:17:24 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV: Mass Combat
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At 01:14 PM 11/3/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>> >While I was at it, I reread the Fantasy Hero Companion rules to remind
>> >myself why I disliked them so much. The FH mass combat rules revolve
>> >almost entirely around morale...
>[SNIP]
>> > I'm very
>> >annoyed by a mass combat system with no real system for determining who
>> >dies in battle; not only is it one of the basic points of a combat system,
>> >it's also one of the most dramatic elements of a battle.
>>
>> I was interpreting it as taking place at the time of an encounter, but
>> now that you mention it I think you're right. I'll go fix that right away,
>> and add more to make some more definite determinations about the number and
>> type of casualties.
>
>I'm glad to hear you're fixing that. It might be a tough fix, since morale
>is so central to the FH system, so I'll be curious to see how you do it.
Part of the fix will be, of course, to make Morale much less central to
the modified Mass Combat system.
>> OK, so some kind of check on a Skill Roll would be in order. Those
>> "highly intelligent undead" might have EGO, leaving them to the normal
>> Morale rules. As for the combat robots (which falls under the purview of
>> this book), do you suppose a check against Tactics Skill would be logical?
>
>I'm not sure. Since the system as it stands requires only a Morale check,
>and not a Tactics check, for normal units, it suggests that the problem of
>emotional impact far outweights the rational problems of keeping a unit
>organized under adverse conditions. It would be logical if normal units
>were required to make BOTH a Morale and a Tactics roll, but that would be
>cumbersome. There should be some (big) advantage to troops with no regard
>for their personal safety.
They have no regard for their personal safety, but they also have no
self will and are unable to formulate a creative plan. That's part of what
having no EGO is all about.
So I was thinking in terms of enabling a programmed machine -- one
*without* an EGO characteristic -- to use Tactics (unmodified by Unit Size)
as the basis for its Morale Check, representing the machine's ability to
adapt to the changing events. A combat machine without Tactics would just
use a base 11- Roll (or maybe even just an 8- Roll).
You also made me think of one other thing: What about zealots, cowards,
and other characters with Psychological Limitations that could affect
morale? Perhaps Morale could be affected by +/-2 for a moderate Psch
Limit, +/-4 for a strong one, or +/-6 for a total one (whether it's + or -
depends on the nature of the Psych limit). A Psych Limit that adds to
Morale Checks would, of course, also have to have a drawback (since
otherwise every player will want heavy Psych Limits to get both extra
points *and* Morale bonuses).
>And yes, "highly intelligent undead" might have EGO, but they might not. I
>like the Hero System when it lets me create characters (and species)
>according to the concept I want, not forcing the "typical case" upon me.
>It's entirely within the scope of fantasy fiction to have a race of
>intelligent, organized beings with absolutely no sense of self and no
>instinct for self-preservation. These creatures would clearly have some
>powerful advantages on the battlefield.
But like I say, without EGO they also have no creativity, and a limited
ability to adapt to a changing situation. At least, that's how I
understand the difference (in game terms) between an entity with EGO and an
otherwise identical one without, as is the case between a Computer and an AID.
>I'd be interested in hearing the opinions of any military buffs out there.
>Not being a military buff myself, I could live with the rules either way.
Ditto.
>> Actually, Morale is somewhat different from PRE Attacks. A PRE Attack
>> is an intentional effort to intimidate someone (or otherwise affect their
>> emotional state) through force of personality. The Morale checks are to
>> figure out the response to taking serious damage.
>
>I'm not entirely sure I agree with you. I could see adjusting PRE Attacks
>according to the damage done to the target, both in individual and in mass
>combat. I'd consider it part of the extra dice for "More Powerful" and/or
>"Violent Action." And the response to taking serious damage *is* a
>psychological one (based of EGO, not INT), and therefore might be swayed
>by the attacker's force of personality.
Let me express it this way: a PRE Attack is what you do when you're
really trying to psych out the enemy, while Morale is what happens when
you're not trying but get psychological results anyway.
>> And now that I think about it, the system does need to be changed in one
>> fundamental way. As it now stands, casualties are the result of lost
>> Morale, whereas it should be the other way around.
>
>Yes, absolutely. Though it is possible to hurt the enemy's morale without
>damaging them. Fake silhouettes of tanks, surprise and show of power, and
>dramatic soliloquies ("God sent me") all work nicely as PRE attacks that
>hurt morale. The FH rules do mention PRE attacks, but don't use them as
>any kind of modifier for morale rolls; it seems to me that there should be
>some kind of adjustment in some cases.
On this I agree.
---
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Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 14:20:52 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV: Remote Control
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At 11:54 AM 11/3/97 -0800, Duane Morris wrote:
>Actually, that is what I was thinking in my original Mind control idea.
>The reason that I suggested Mind Control, as opposed to Mind Link, is what
>happens if one person/group tries to cut in <take control of> a vehicle
>that someone else is operating remotely??
The problem with using Mind Control as the base Power is that the target
does not even want to resist in any way, and resistance is the assumption
in that Power. With Mind Link, all you get is the giving of instructions,
and that's all you need.
But cutting in on someone else can be done with Mind Control.
---
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Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 14:21:32 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: In Praise of Bob Quinlan
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 08:51 AM 11/3/97 -0800, Shelley Chrystal Mactyre wrote:
>At 07:27 AM 11/3/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>At 02:17 PM 11/3/97 GMT, Matthew Mactyre wrote:
>[Nice things about october.com snipped.]
>
>> Just briefly, though it admittedly may be a waste of bandwidth for me to
>>quote everything Michael wrote and then say nothing more than that I echo
>>the sentiment and endorse the site, I now do so. :-]
>
>You mean Matthew, I'm sure. =) And of course I now must add, "me, too"
>regarding Bob Q.
Yes, I meant Matthew. (Why do I keep calling him Michael? That's not
the first time I've done that....)
---
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Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:46:42 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy?
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On Tue, 4 Nov 1997 jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
> >> > More as a justification to ignore and disregard.
> >>
> >> so your just throwing your own ego in here? i mean, that's probably
> >> the most contradictory attempt at logic i've ever seen. "i'm
> >> just chiming in to say i'm ingoring you"? please. Tell someone
> >> who cares.
> >
> > Actually, it was more of an observation. I'd hazard to guess that
> >the majority of the list isn't even reading this thread as it involves
> >you. I, and others in my judgement, have come to realize that reading
> >anything with your name in the <sent> field is a waste of time and effort.
> >
>
> gee, that's valid! once again, just because you rationalise something
> as being reasonable, doesn't mean it is- people like you dislike people
Ahem. I (for one) tend to ignore just about anything you post Mr. Jones.
Why? Because you usually write illegible commentary that I can't
decipher. I have posted something in the area of 125 to 150 character
adaptions to this list, and I cringe when ever I find a spelling mistake
or a grammatical error. Why? Because: 1) I want people to be able to
understand what I have written. Hero Games has enough proofreading
problems with having me add to it. And 2) I want to come across as having
something useful to say, not as meaningless prattle.
Nothing diminishes one's commentary more than spelling and puncuation
mistakes. That and excessive use of all caps and e-mail shorthand.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 09:26:46 +1000
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At 05:46 PM 11/3/97 -0500, you wrote:
>On Tue, 4 Nov 1997 jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
>
>> >> > More as a justification to ignore and disregard.
>> >>
>> >> so your just throwing your own ego in here? i mean, that's probably
>> >> the most contradictory attempt at logic i've ever seen. "i'm
>> >> just chiming in to say i'm ingoring you"? please. Tell someone
>> >> who cares.
>> >
>> > Actually, it was more of an observation. I'd hazard to guess that
>> >the majority of the list isn't even reading this thread as it involves
>> >you. I, and others in my judgement, have come to realize that reading
>> >anything with your name in the <sent> field is a waste of time and effort.
>> >
>>
>> gee, that's valid! once again, just because you rationalise something
>> as being reasonable, doesn't mean it is- people like you dislike people
>
>Ahem. I (for one) tend to ignore just about anything you post Mr. Jones.
>Why? Because you usually write illegible commentary that I can't
>decipher. I have posted something in the area of 125 to 150 character
>adaptions to this list, and I cringe when ever I find a spelling mistake
>or a grammatical error. Why? Because: 1) I want people to be able to
>understand what I have written. Hero Games has enough proofreading
>problems with having me add to it. And 2) I want to come across as having
>something useful to say, not as meaningless prattle.
>
>Nothing diminishes one's commentary more than spelling and puncuation
>mistakes. That and excessive use of all caps and e-mail shorthand.
>
>
once again how arrogant can you be to decide that this is
'how it is' because you think it? I couldn't care less
if the whole list deletes my mail- anyone with such petty
reasons for ignorimg mail is not worth trying to communicate
with. end of '''thread'''
>***************************************************************************
>* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
>* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
>* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
>* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
>* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
>* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
>***************************************************************************
>
>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 97 00:10:29 UT
From: "Jeff Tolle" <Trigon@classic.msn.com>
Subject: RE: Thermonecular Devices
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Jeremiah Driscoll
Point well taken. Kal could take it... but had he ever? I mean, had he,
Pre-Crisis, had to take a nuke on the chin? And what happened to everything
around him when the nuke went off?
He Sure did!! It was in the Dark Knight series! A wonderful comic book! And
even though he took it on the chin, it put a real hurtin on him!!!! In this
instance, he grabbed the bomb, and was holding it when it went off. He was
cut off from the suns rays from the blast, and that was perhaps what hurt him
most.
Jeff
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 10:12:10 +1000
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At 01:51 PM 11/3/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>> What about fantasy/whatever?
>>
>>Definitely not!
>
> Oh no? There are vehicles in Fantasy: flying carpets, animated golems
>(the fantasy equivalent of mechas), self-propelling chariots, and the like.
> For that matter, I can point to at least one example of a motorcycle
>gang showing up in a Western.
and various 'magitech' craft (airships, ect)
>---
>Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
>Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
>
>
>
Reply-To: <scott2k@gte.net>
From: "Scott S." <scott2k@gte.net>
Cc: <hero-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Density Increase
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:25:15 -0800
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> > Am I the only one who thinks the defense gained from Density Increase
> > should be resistant?
>
> I'd say no, just because there are SFX that would not call for it
> ( A sumo wrestler, for example). It's much easier for someone to
> add a few points of Damage Resistance to their characters with DI
> than it is for someone who doen't want resistant DEF to back-calculate
> how much the DR would be and subtract it from the DI cost.
If someone wants to be denser without being more resistant to killing
attacks, he's got the wrong idea. Imagine the Thing bleeding cuz some punk
stuck him with a knife, or Obsidian.
Reply-To: <scott2k@gte.net>
From: "Scott S." <scott2k@gte.net>
Subject: Fw: Density Increase
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:26:16 -0800
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scott2k@gte.net
----------
> From: Scott S. <scott2k@gte.net>
> To: Eric Pawtowski <epawtows@cray-ymp.acm.stuorg.vt.edu>
> Cc: hero-l@omg.org
> Subject: Re: Density Increase
> Date: Monday, November 03, 1997 4:25 PM
>
>
> > > Am I the only one who thinks the defense gained from Density Increase
> > > should be resistant?
> >
> > I'd say no, just because there are SFX that would not call for it
> > ( A sumo wrestler, for example). It's much easier for someone to
> > add a few points of Damage Resistance to their characters with DI
> > than it is for someone who doen't want resistant DEF to back-calculate
> > how much the DR would be and subtract it from the DI cost.
> If someone wants to be denser without being more resistant to killing
> attacks, he's got the wrong idea. Imagine the Thing bleeding cuz some
punk
> stuck him with a knife, or Obsidian.
>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:09:01 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV: Bibliography
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> And then there's always the funky stuff the Ninja Turtles have (and I
> think they're the only superhero team to get around on a blimp).
Well, the Rescue Rangers weren't exactly a superhero team, but
they had a sort of blimp.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:09:50 -0800
From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell)
Subject: RE: Thermonecular Devices
X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII
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-> From Trigon@classic.msn.com Mon Nov 3 16:58:22 1997
->
-> Jeremiah Driscoll
->
-> Point well taken. Kal could take it... but had he ever? I mean, had he,
-> Pre-Crisis, had to take a nuke on the chin? And what happened to everything
-> around him when the nuke went off?
->
-> He Sure did!! It was in the Dark Knight series! A wonderful comic book! And
-> even though he took it on the chin, it put a real hurtin on him!!!! In this
-> instance, he grabbed the bomb, and was holding it when it went off. He was
-> cut off from the suns rays from the blast, and that was perhaps what hurt him
-> most.
->
Dark Knight was post-crisis. Pre-crisis Supes wouldn't have had such a hard time.
-Sam
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 11:21:05 +1000
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Subject: RE: Thermonecular Devices
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At 12:10 AM 11/4/97 +0000, you wrote:
>Jeremiah Driscoll
>
>Point well taken. Kal could take it... but had he ever? I mean, had he,
>Pre-Crisis, had to take a nuke on the chin? And what happened to everything
>around him when the nuke went off?
>
>He Sure did!! It was in the Dark Knight series! A wonderful comic book! And
>even though he took it on the chin, it put a real hurtin on him!!!! In this
>instance, he grabbed the bomb, and was holding it when it went off. He was
>cut off from the suns rays from the blast, and that was perhaps what hurt him
>most.
>
>Jeff
>
>
superman? he took a nuke in one of the anuals which
showed alternative futures. . . but that was not point
blank. .
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 17:38:53 -0800
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV: Bibliography
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Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
> > And then there's always the funky stuff the Ninja Turtles have
> (and I
> > think they're the only superhero team to get around on a blimp).
>
> Well, the Rescue Rangers weren't exactly a superhero team, but
> they had a sort of blimp.
>
> -Tim Gilberg
And the Idea Men from the Tick aren't heroes, but they had a blimp.
-Mark Lemming
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 17:48:46 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
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At 07:04 PM 11/3/97 +0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>At 01:51 PM 11/3/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>> For that matter, I can point to at least one example of a motorcycle
>>gang showing up in a Western.
>>
>Brisco! And he kept one of the "mechanical horses," too, didn't he?
I believe so.
I would've loved to see that eccentric sherrif (Aaron was his name,
wasn't it?) astride one of those.
>- Jerry, whose opinion is that The Adventures of Brisco County, Jr was
>really a Sci-Fi show, masquerading as a Western...
It was a simply perfect blend. I was terribly disappointed to find it
cancelled, as I was over many Fox sci-fi shows of that now-gone period.
---
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Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 17:55:18 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV: Beast-drawn vehicles
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At 06:37 PM 11/3/97 +0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>At 08:15 PM 11/3/97, qts wrote:
>>On Sun, 02 Nov 1997 21:44:26 +0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>>>qts wrote:
><suggestions for dinosaur powered vehicles>
>>>>Hehehe! You could also arguably make the Dinos SFX...
>>>>
>>>Good point. But this would work best in a Superheroic game.
>>
>>Which is the main market.
>>
>Yes, but Bob wants to make this compatible with the other stuff Hero put
>out... (I think) What about Western Hero and unhitching your horse (like I
>mention later). Really, unless you have a specific mechanic for
>horses/raptors/people pulling vehicles, you *have* to use them as SFX. And
>then the various thing(s) pulling it won't be able to act on their own, get
>loose, do *anything* besides pull the damn thing, or even get hit (beyond
>standard vehicular damage).
You are correct in that I want to make it as compatible as possible with
as much of the rest of the Hero System, at least in terms of rules.
What I'm thinking of doing for beast-drawn vehicles is simply having a
Vehicle built without any Movement Powers of its own. Then you hitch the
beast to it, or put the thing on its back (if the beast is big enough), and
use the beast's STR, Movement, and other characteristics where such are
needed.
Beast-drawn flying vehicles may have Gliding.
>>For non-superhero stuff, you don't have the dinos as SFX
>>
>What do you have them as? I don't see any specific rules (right now) for
>pulling a vehicle. All vehicles of certain weights would be lifted by a
>certain STR, and that's it. I was just suggesting this to Bob... I don't
>own Western Hero, and actually am curious about rules on the horses in
>there... thinking of throwing in some Texas Ranger supers in my game world,
>maybe.
There's not enough on wagons and such in Western Hero to even warrant a
footnote in TUSV. I just checked. (However, it is very rich in background
material and atmosphere; it's really a highly underrated game.)
---
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Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 17:57:46 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV: Bibliography
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At 07:09 PM 11/3/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> And then there's always the funky stuff the Ninja Turtles have (and I
>> think they're the only superhero team to get around on a blimp).
>
> Well, the Rescue Rangers weren't exactly a superhero team, but
>they had a sort of blimp.
Anything with a vehicle that has unusual characteristics (at least,
something better than the General Lee) will work.
In fact, I actually have one trick in the manuscript that was once done
by Dick Dastardly in the Wacky Races (he used what I would call a
Stretching device to extend the nose of his car across the finish line).
---
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Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 18:00:02 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV: Remote Control
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At 07:01 PM 11/3/97 +0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>At 02:20 PM 11/3/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>At 11:54 AM 11/3/97 -0800, Duane Morris wrote:
>>>Actually, that is what I was thinking in my original Mind control idea.
>>>The reason that I suggested Mind Control, as opposed to Mind Link, is what
>>>happens if one person/group tries to cut in <take control of> a vehicle
>>>that someone else is operating remotely??
>>
>> The problem with using Mind Control as the base Power is that the target
>>does not even want to resist in any way, and resistance is the assumption
>>in that Power. With Mind Link, all you get is the giving of instructions,
>>and that's all you need.
>> But cutting in on someone else can be done with Mind Control.
>>
>Well, the only reason I would steer away would be the cost... so your
>computer isn't resisting you, but it's resisting the other guys. So, for
>you it lowers its ECV to 0 and "is inclined to do" the actions you tell him,
>anyway (except for actions it *can't* perform). For others, it has X ECV,
>where this is its normal ECV (whatever ECV a computer has... would be a
>function of its complexity and security codes, I think). It is also,
>possibly, "normally against doing" what other remotes tell it. This seems
>to help what you were saying, but I still wouldn't use it, because of the
>prohibitive cost.
Yeah, the combination of prohibitive cost and overly complex mechanics
is enough to say "Oh please, not with the Mind Control thing..."
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:43:00 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV: Bibliography
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> You kidding me? Of course they were... they had a Brick, a Gadgeteer, a
> Detective, um... a character w/ Shrinking and Flight (okay, more shrinking
> than the others, okay?), and, um... a comedic sidekick for the Detective.
> (Those would be Monty, Gadget, Chip, Zipper?, and Dale.) Sounds like a
> superhero team to me... and look at the villains they fought!
I'd put them more at normal level heroes than superheroes.
"Street level" supers at the highest.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 22:34:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com>
Subject: CHAR: Mushizo
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[Well, I'm almost done with the Ninja Scroll cast. Last up is Zakuro, and
she's a tough one!]
MUSHIZO
Designers Notes:
Mushizo is one of the strangest of the Eight Devils of Kimon. He is an
ugly, warped looking man with a hunched back. Looks are deceiving
through, Mushizo is fairly quick, carries a wicked looking yari (spear)
and has a nasty surprise for the unwary...
Description:
Mushizo looks to stand about 5'6" maybe a little taller. His real height
is hard to determine, as he is usually hunched over. His hair is thin and
stringy, and he has ugly, almost bestial face. He wears trousers and an
odd fur vest.
Powers Notes:
Mushizo's hunched back is really an immense paper wasp's nest that looks
to grow *out* of his back. Any attacks directed against Mushizo's back
will probably hit the nest, damaging the hive, but leaving Mushizo
unharmed. It contains thousands of wasps, which Mushizo will us to
attack, confuse and herd his enemies. This swarm is built as a simple
RKA, since the end result of the attack would be the death of the target.
I have also seen swarms built as separate characters, but felt this was
the simplest way to define the effect.
Anyway, the swarm works like this. Mushizo decides who he wants to hit
with his wasps, and directs them after his target. The wasps may come
from the hive, or from the local area (hence the Indirect advantage).
Since one would have to be wearing fully sealed clothing, the attack is
bought as Penetrating; most of the clothing and the armor of the time
won't really prevent someone from taking damage from the attack. The Area
of Effect represents the maximum size of the swarm. Mushizo won't be
attacked by his own wasps, so he has Personal Immunity. The swarm will
stay until dismissed or driven off, hence the Continuous and Uncontrolled.
There are several ways to disrupt this Continuous part of the attack:
diving into water, creating thick clouds of smoke, open flames, sleeping
powders (this is how Kagero kept the wasps away). Note, that it will take
a little time for the wasps to fully swarm and that they can be outrun (or
hidden from). Finally, it is doubtful that the wasps will be of much use
in high winds or rain.
On top of all that, Mushizo carries a forked yari and a number of throwing
spikes (bo shuriken). Finally, he has a long needle lodged in his throat,
which he will use in a hand to hand fight as a surprise attack.
Disadvantages Notes:
As with the other Eight Devils of Kimon, Mushizo is evil through and
through. He kills with out remorse or a second through. In addition, his
odd attire and twisted body are unmistakable. Mushizo's nastiest
disadvantage, though, is the nest itself. If caught in any situation
where the wasps can be made frantic (such as falling into deep water), the
wasps inside the nest will start to sting Mushizo himself, which will
result in a rather horrid death in short order.
The Character:
STAT VAL COST
Str 18 8
Dex 23 39
Con 20 20
Body 15 10
Int 13 3
Ego 10 0
Pre 18 8
Com 4 -3
PD 8 4
ED 7 3
Spd 5 17
Rec 8 0
End 40 0
Stun 33 0
Char Total 109
Power Total 169
Total Cost 278
COST POWERS & SKILLS
1 MA: Yarijutsu, use with spear, staff
4 Block +2 OCV +2 DCV Abort
4 Disarm -1 OCV +1 DCV 28 STR
5 Slash -2 OCV +1 DCV STR +4d6 (+2DC)
3 Sweep +2 OCV -1 DCV STR +1d6; Target Falls
4 Thrust +0 OCV +2 DCV STR +2d6 (+1 DC)
22 Multipower: Forked Yari, OAF
2 u 2d6 HKA, 0 END, Reduced Penetration (forked blade)
2 u 1d6+1 HKA, 0 END, AP (butt-spike)
3 +1" Range, OAF: Forked Yari
5 +2 OCV with Bind, Block, Disarm, OAF: Forked Yari
18 RKA: 1d6, Autofire 3, 0 END, OAF: Bo Shuriken
8 RKA: 1d6, AP, 0 END, No Range, 1 Shot, IIF: Throat Needle
10 Armor: 10 DEF, Locations 10-12 or Act 8- (-2), Wasp's nest on back
41 Wasp Swarm: 1/2d6 RKA, AoE: Radius 8" (+1 3/4), Continous,
Uncontrolled, Indirect (+3/4), Penetrating, Personal Immunity,
0 END, No KB (-0), Does not work underwater, in highwinds, or
heavy storms (-1/4), Swarm takes time to form, and can only move
3" per phase (-1/4)
2 Running: +1"
3 Breakfall 14-
3 Climbing 14-
5 Concealment 13-
3 KS: Wasps 12-
3 Riding 14-
3 Stealth 14-
3 WF: Bo Shuriken, Spear, Staff
2 Lang: Japanese (literate), 'Wasp'
10 CSL: +2 with HTH
Disadvantages
100 Base
15 DF: Hunchbacked and ugly
10 DS: Yarijutsu
15 Psych: Casual Killer
10 Psych: Obeys Orders
15 Rep: One of the Eight Devils of Kimon 11- (Ext)
40 Suscept: To immersion in water, smoke, gasses, or anything that
won't kill the wasps but will make them frantic, 1d6 Body & Stun
per Phase
73 In need of a good can of Raid bonus
(Mushito created by Yoshiaki Kawajiri, character sheet created by Michael
Surbrook based on material written by David Kuijt)
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Reply-To: <scott2k@gte.net>
From: "Scott S." <scott2k@gte.net>
Cc: <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Density Increase
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:16:34 -0800
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> > > than it is for someone who doen't want resistant DEF to
back-calculate
> > > how much the DR would be and subtract it from the DI cost.
> > If someone wants to be denser without being more resistant to killing
> > attacks, he's got the wrong idea. Imagine the Thing bleeding cuz some
punk
> > stuck him with a knife, or Obsidian.
> >
>
> Obsidian and The Thing both have the powers "Made of tougher, denser
material
> than ordinary flesh". To simulate that in champs, you need *more* than
> just Density Increase. Density Increase handles the "Denser" part.
> It doens't handle the "tougher" part very well. To do that, you
> need to add Damage Resistance.
<snip>
Exactly my point, it doesn't accurately reflect the power in question. If
you are denser, you are more resistant to killing attacks, such as knives,
lasers, etc. It's just a simple fact of physics that the denser something
is, the more difficult it is to penetrate.
P.S.- What's a Shoggoth???
X-Sender: wbandsis@mail.westco.net
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 00:51:00 -0500
From: "C. Badger" <wbandsis@westco.net>
Subject: Re: Doing a Rule of X (Why/How)
Cc: hero-l@omg.org
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Originally from Hero list... but this question is more of a fuzion answer so
I posted here.
At 09:11 11/03/97 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:
> The rule of X says something to the effect that rather than set
>a max limit we set an average. Then, for every so much my damage goes
>above this average, my OCV must go an effectivly equivalent amount below
>it.
> The formula does the same thing to defense.
>
> Contructed properly, this formula can make a great guideline for
>setting power levels. It helps you avoid an absolute max or min, avoids
>letting the entire group of characters end up with the same numbers under
>diferent names, and it still ensures they're all on a similar power level.
>
> However, the formula as given in FUzion does not work, but the
>idea does.
Any suggestion on the way to improve this?
-----
C. Badger
My Feet hurt and I've forgotten how to dance.
Londo
Babylon 5
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 23:59:16 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
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David W Toomey wrote:
<<Previous discussion quelled>>
> Are you saying that this only applies to HtH combat? I don't see how
> size of
> shooter matters in hitting a target. At 20", Ant-Man, Joe Normal, and
> Giant-Man should
> have the same chance to hit a target, assuming Dex, etc are equivilant.
> Otherwise, Giants should get OCV penalties to hit normals. HERO takes
> human size as the
> base (no OCV-DCV mods) and alters that based on size of TARGET. Usually,
> Giants are built with less DEX than normals, but in reality just because
> someone is larger than you doesn't make you harder to hit. Yes, an adult
> can have problems catching a
> child compared to catching another adult, but the TARGET size is what has
> changed.
Actually, it is because of this concept that I use the rule. To
spell it out, if BOB is normal size, he will have a bonus to hit a large
target, such as RICK who is 24 feet tall. This is because RICK is
larger than normal, thus has more 'target area' to him. If RICK tries
to attack BOB, though, there are no penalties, because RICK is used to
targets of BOB's size, thus has learned to treat that size as 'normal'.
Thus far, I believe, I agree with your arguement.
Now, STELLA is 12" (one foot) tall. BOB has a hard time hitting her
because she has less 'target area' to her, and is out of the norm for
human target size. However, STELLA gets no bonusses to hit BOB because
he is 'normal' and she is used to most targets being that size.
BUT if BOB is hit with Dr. SizeMore's Growth ray, he expands to RICK's
size. NOW in a battle, BOB and RICK are on even ground, because RICK
also spends time at normal height, and is also used to attacking normal
size people when he is normal size. So attacking BOB at 24 feet, to
RICK, is no different than attacking BOB at 6 feet, while RICK himself
is 6 feet.
Alternately, If STELLA only uses some of her shrinking to maintain a
3 foot height, she is easier for everyone else to hit that if she were
only 1. Why? Because the rules say so. No, no, no. Because she has
more target area at 3 feet tall than at 1. But if STELLA is at her
smallest size, and Dr. S.M. shrinks BOB down to 2 feet tall, to him it
is as if STELLA has only reduced to half size, instead of 1/6 size.
It is still the target's relative size that decides the bonus or
penalty, but the penalty/bonus is only equal to the difference in sizes,
and applied to the character farthest away from the norm when they are
targeted.
And seperately from the arguement I am trying to clarify, my OPINION
is that size bonusses/penalties should be uniformly applied to ALL
targets who are a different relative size, or at least a partial
bonus/penalty against 'normal' characters when targeted by grown/shrunk
opponents. I mean, if a huge rock is easier to hit with a bow-and-arrow
than a baseball, and AS easy to hit if the baseball is enlarged to
huge-rock-size, then why would it make a difference if you and the
baseball were both shrunk back down proportionately until the baseball
were normal size and you were the size of a beetle? Relative to you,
the baseball is a huge-rock-size, and thus should be as easy to hit as
the big rock was when you were normal size....
--
"All of science, all of the vastness of knowledge
of mankind boils down to two things. We look at
stuff and make stuff up. That's it. That's Everything."
-Capt. Spith
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 13:22:36 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: RE: Thermonecular Devices
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At 12:48 PM 11/4/97 -0500, Will Austin wrote:
>At 05:09 PM 11/3/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>
>>-> From Trigon@classic.msn.com Mon Nov 3 16:58:22 1997
>>->
>>-> Jeremiah Driscoll
>>->
>>->> Point well taken. Kal could take it... but had he ever? I mean, had he,
>>->> Pre-Crisis, had to take a nuke on the chin? And what happened to
everything
>>->> around him when the nuke went off?
>>->
>>-> He Sure did!! It was in the Dark Knight series! A wonderful comic
book! And
>>-> even though he took it on the chin, it put a real hurtin on him!!!! In
this
>>-> instance, he grabbed the bomb, and was holding it when it went off. He
was
>>-> cut off from the suns rays from the blast, and that was perhaps what
hurt him
>>-> most.
>>
>>Dark Knight was post-crisis. Pre-crisis Supes wouldn't have had such a
hard time.
>
> The pre-Crisis Superman regularly flew in and around stars--a nuke
wouldn't much >bother him. . .
>
Right. I still agree with this. But no one has given me an answer where DC
had him take a nuke in continuity. This was my point. Even if I have a
character as powerful as Supes, I ain't gonna set off a nuke in my campaign
world. Supes couldn't contain the blast, just survive it himself. I never
disputed that. But DC and I agree that setting off a nuke would drastically
change the campaign (comic) world, so we won't do it.
Can anyone tell me how they would nuke Superman (on Earth) and not have it
effect the rest of the comics that DC puts out? (Besides poor editing and
retcons, that is...)00000
- Jerry
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 00:31:45 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: STR + HKA, Adv & Lim
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Robert A. West wrote:
>
> Captain Spith wrote:
> >
> > To add STR enough to double the 1D6 Penetrating(+1/2)AP(+1/2)HKA, you
> > must use 30 STR to match the 30 active points in the HKA. The
>
> While I agree that this is the rule used by everyone, and that any
> other interpretation would be silly, I don't find it under the
> description of HKA. In what obscure corner have they hidden this?
>
> I would caveat that the advantages apply to the *damage dice* rolled for
> the STR, not to the STR itself. Thus, STR does not acquire Reduced END
> just because it is being used with an HKA.
>
> > limitation has no bearing on STR used.
>
> Again, the same caveat applies: Reduced Penetration would certainly apply
> to the additional damage dice done by STR.
Actually, all I meant was that the limitations do not affect the
active points of STR necessary. Obviously, reduced penetration or
activation would still apply in practice... ("My HKA is on an 8-, but
my added STR is GUARANTEED!")
--
"All of science, all of the vastness of knowledge
of mankind boils down to two things. We look at
stuff and make stuff up. That's it. That's Everything."
-Capt. Spith
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 00:38:54 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Silly Concepts (Was: TUSV stuff...)
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Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>
> At 07:09 PM 11/3/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> >
> >Bob Greenwade wrote:
> > Well, the Rescue Rangers weren't exactly a superhero team, but
> >they had a sort of blimp.
> >
> You kidding me? Of course they were... they had a Brick, a Gadgeteer, a
> Detective, um... a character w/ Shrinking and Flight (okay, more shrinking
> than the others, okay?), and, um... a comedic sidekick for the Detective.
> (Those would be Monty, Gadget, Chip, Zipper?, and Dale.) Sounds like a
> superhero team to me... and look at the villains they fought!
I actually modelled a low-level NPC mercenary team after the Rescue
Rangers once, they actually translated rather smoothly to RPG
adventurers.
For some reason, I always had the impression that underneath it all,
Zipper was actually an aged philosophical guru....
--
"All of science, all of the vastness of knowledge
of mankind boils down to two things. We look at
stuff and make stuff up. That's it. That's Everything."
-Capt. Spith
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 13:42:53 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: RE: Thermonecular Devices
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At 10:31 AM 11/4/97 -0800, Sam Bell wrote:
>
>-> From jdriscol@vt.edu Tue Nov 4 10:22:45 1997
>-> Right. I still agree with this. But no one has given me an answer where DC
>-> had him take a nuke in continuity. This was my point. Even if I have a
>-> character as powerful as Supes, I ain't gonna set off a nuke in my campaign
>-> world. Supes couldn't contain the blast, just survive it himself. I never
>-> disputed that. But DC and I agree that setting off a nuke would drastically
>-> change the campaign (comic) world, so we won't do it.
>-> Can anyone tell me how they would nuke Superman (on Earth) and not have it
>-> effect the rest of the comics that DC puts out? (Besides poor editing and
>-> retcons, that is...)
>->
>Hundreds and hundreds of nuclear bombs have been detonated on earth without
>much direct effect on people's lives. Just lure Nukeproofman out to some
>remote area before dropping the bomb on him.
>
Okay, and this would be impressive HOW? If it doesn't have an impact on the
character at all (Radiation Accidents aside) and no one even knows about it
(which isn't necessarily true, in your example) then why bother? Woulld you
for the plot device? That's the only way I see it mattering, and then you
don't need the write-up... it's a plot device. I have plot device villains
in my games sometimes, they're just difficult to write up and have scads of
points. But I still use 'em, I just happen to know what they can do (in
general) just like I know what a nuke would do (in general).
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 14:31:42 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Hand to Hand Attacks, Tasers vs Billy Clubs
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At 01:15 PM 11/4/97 -0600, Sparx wrote:
>2d6 EB, No Range 7 pts.
>2d6 HTH, No Strength 4 pts.
>2d6 HTH 6 pts.
>
Well, I would've assumed an OAF for both...
2d6 EB, No Range, OAF 4 pt
2d6 HTH, STR doesn't add, OAF 2 pt
2d6 HTH, OAF (I assume this is the billy club) 3 pt
This doesn't even include the fact that the Taser should either have
Charges, an END Reserve, or be 0 END. I personally make HtoH weapons cost
END... I know some don't.
(Then again, a lot of people don't like HTH at all... I hope you haven't
opened a can of worms... giant, Cthulhoid worms, at that.)
The way I would write a Taser for my guys would be something like this:
2d6 EB, NND, 0 END, No Range, OAF 10 pt.
Or something similar. That *is* getting a little expensive (be cheaper with
Charges).
The only time someone used a Taser-like weapon in my game was recently...
it was a female cultist who duped the Powered Armor hero close to her,
acting like a victim... "Something terrible's about to happen... TO YOU!"
and then zapped him with this doo-hickey. It completely drained his END
Reserve, and he beat the crap out of her with just his gauntleted hands...
I didn't write it up, either, just used it for effect.
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 14:40:43 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: RE: Thermonecular Devices
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At 11:15 AM 11/4/97 -0800, Sam Bell wrote:
>What do you want me to do, run your game for you? Maybe you will never
>have use for a nuclear-bomb write-up, and that's fine, but I have used a
>few, and will probably use a few more. Sure, I could have just faked it,
>but why should I when it is such a simple exercise to write one up in
>Champions terms?
>
Ow. Sorry, Sam, I think my last message was a little too rough... I didn't
mean to imply that you should run my game, or that your ideas were inferior.
I probably won't have use for it. I actually have one, though, I got it off
the net, and I've already forwarded it to several people on the list who
requested it. I'm all about helping out, and every bit into discussing it.
But I really don't think it's a "simple exercise," and if you want to look
at this write-up... I don't think I'd be able to do it at all.
>I'm not trying to force you to write them up, but I think other people should
>be able to, if they want, without getting this "It's a plot device that
>should not be written up." attitude from this list. I'm not saying you've
>displayed this attitude (I honestly don't remember who did) but I know I've
>seen it here more than once and it puzzles and annoys me.
>
Yes, if they want. But I really can't see using one in my game world to
much effect. Actually, your prior suggestion was not a bad one... lure
Nukeproof Dude into the middle of the desert, and drop a *big* one on him.
Maybe the Player doesn't know he's *really* nukeproof. Maybe the press is
watching from afar, and *they* don't know he's really nukeproof. Maybe he
has about 50 XP saved up, and wants a *real* man's Radiation Accident.
But I still wouldn't drop even a tac-nuke on a hero in the middle of a city,
unless there was a way to absolutely stop it... and then I don't need the
write-up. (If it does go off, and I'm using a write-up, I'd better have a
write-up for all the buildings, too... or at least a list of DEF/BOD stats.)
- Jerry
PS - If anyone still wants that write-up (I didn't write it, and I don't
know who did), privately e-mail me, and I'll send it out.
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 15:44:15 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Hand to Hand Attacks, Tasers vs Billy Clubs
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At 01:58 PM 11/4/97 -0600, Sparx wrote:
because I had responded to him with:
>>At 01:15 PM 11/4/97 -0600, Sparx wrote:
>>>2d6 EB, No Range 7 pts.
>>>2d6 HTH, No Strength 4 pts.
>>>2d6 HTH 6 pts.
>>>
>>Well, I would've assumed an OAF for both...
>>2d6 EB, No Range, OAF 4 pt
>>2d6 HTH, STR doesn't add, OAF 2 pt
>>2d6 HTH, OAF (I assume this is the billy club) 3 pt
>>
>>This doesn't even include the fact that the Taser should either have
>>Charges, an END Reserve, or be 0 END. I personally make HtoH weapons cost
>>END... I know some don't.
>>(Then again, a lot of people don't like HTH at all... I hope you haven't
>>opened a can of worms... giant, Cthulhoid worms, at that.)
>
>Yeah, I hope I didn't open a can of worms either. Ok, don't worry about
>OAF, NND or the likes. Assume it isn't a weapon at all, but two different
>hth powers. That was the main point of the arguement. One says his hth
>doesn't add in str damage, the other says his does, neither think the cost
>should be the same but for various reasons. So how would you handle this?
>Thanks and talk at you later.
>
Well, it now sounds more like "How do I handle an a rules argument between
my Players?" than "How would you guys write this up?" I hope you can
deal with it to the satisfaction of both. Personally, I'd weigh both sides
and make a ruling. Then I'd stick to it (unless I realized I had been
foolish : ). If you're fair, your Players should accept it. Mine do.
Personally, I'd go with the No Range EB. It seems more along the lines of
what he really wants (an Energy Attack that has no range). And, Hero Games
people say to use the more expensive option... If your guys are throwing
around such small attacks, anyway, I assume a "normal" game. So, EDs
wouldn't be that high. Seems like the Energy Taser would be more effective
(and therefore worth more) than the Physical Billy Club.
If I'm off base (still), correct me again. "It never hurts to help!"
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 15:46:24 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Super Shamus
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At 02:59 PM 11/4/97 -0500, John Prins wrote:
>>Greetings,
>> Super Shamus, an ex-P.I., has one power:
>> Telelocation.
>> In other words, he can find people.
>>
>> I was thinking something along the lines of a Detect Sense with
>>variable Sf/x, coupled with Clairsentience (with enough range to cover a
>>large city).
>
>Mind Scan.
>
Possibly with +1/2 Invisible to Target, or the full +1 Invisible Power
Effects. Sounds like they wouldn't know when they were found (and possibly
mentalists might not be able to see it, too).
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 15:52:28 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: And now for guns!
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At 02:07 PM 11/4/97 -0600, John Stefanski wrote:
>How do you address the Player Character who built his Champions character
>as a hand to hand combatant but constantly picks up dropped (or grabbed)
>guns from the enemy agents to get a ranged attack. These weapons are also
>useful ones and should be purchased through experience points.
>
Well, I usually let them know that if they want a weapon, they need to pay
for it. If he's doing this abusively (in your opinion), tell him it is
bugging you. If he persists, have the weapons jam or run out of ammo as a
plot device, just when he needs them most. If he wants to pay points for
them, but only use them when he picks them up, you might suggest he take a
"weapon of opportunity" VPP. Limitations like OAF, only other peoples
weapons, things like that. Hope this helps.
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 15:57:46 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: How do you address this?
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At 02:04 PM 11/4/97 -0600, John Stefanski wrote:
>How do you address the Player Character who constantly wants to buy
>equipment during a Champions game with money. These items are obviously
>useful ones but should be purchased through experience points.
>
Well, this is similar to your question about the guns. They *should* be
bought with points. You might let him purchase them with money once in
awhile, but it could get abusive (like you seem to imply). Let him know
what the deal is. Again, I suggest a VPP with appropriate Limitations. A
"Purchase Power" VPP, with the Limitations of: must be a focus, must be a
real world item, only if funds are available.
>Items such as:
>IR Goggles (IR Vision),
>SCUBA Gear (Swimming),
>High-Powered Scopes (Telescopic Sight)
>Bulletproof Vest (Armor),
>you get the picture.
>
I'm assuming you don't need write-ups for these.
I'm a little confused, tho. Are you running a Superheroic or Heroic
campaign? If it's just Heroic, they could actually pick up guns, buy normal
equipment, etc. Usually they wouldn't have to pay points for that stuff.
I've never had a problem with the Players wanting equipment w/o paying the
points... Darren (who's playing a character w/ 15pt Wealth) actually said
about radios, "I could buy them for the group, but you guys are gonna have
to pay the points." My Players know the score up front. Set up the rules,
and follow them yourself.
Good luck.
- Jerry
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 04:34:08 PST
From: "Salmon,David" <David_Salmon@wb.xerox.com>
Subject: Re: ...and then, there was Light.
Posting-date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 07:36:40 -0500
Priority: normal
Hop-count: 3
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It could also be interpreted this way ... not that it's correct ...
just another interpretation
the damage shield is like an intelligent defense in that it will kick
in if the character with the shield is about to get hit by an outside
force but not if the character punches someone else. The shield
affecting someone in a grab could also be explained as a defensive
reaction to the person attempting to escape the grab.
Just a passing thought ... If you want the best of both worlds why not
an Always on EB with a limited range of say 1 inch from the characters skin.
That's just my opinion ... I may be wrong.
...Dave S.
----------
From: owner-champ-l@omg.org
To: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: ...and then, there was Light.
Date: Monday, November 03, 1997 1:35PM
At 04:01 PM 11/3/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>MS> Based on the first paragrah, a damage shield *could* affect a target
>>MS> that is hit with a Move-By or a Move-Through.
>>
>>But it should not, because that is not quite how a Damage Shield works. If
>>a normal strike (punch) will not cause the Damage Shield to affect the
>>target, then a Move By or Move Through should not, either. None of these
>>are the "extended contact" required to make a Damage Shield work as
>>attacks.
> But a normal strike *will* cause the Damage Shield to affect the target,
>unless it's your assertion that successfully hitting the character who has
>Damage Shield with a normal strike does not constitute a successful
>hand-to-hand Attack Roll against said character.
>---
>Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
>Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:11:54 -0500
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Bob said:
>And now here's the kicker: If there's a vehicle that doesn't need
>refueling in a campaign where this Fuel Dependence is used, then
>that vehicle takes Life Support vs needing fuel (the equivalent of Does
>Not Eat for regular characters).
Way cool! I like this ruling very much!
Dave Mattingly
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV: Fuel Comsumption
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 97 10:06:47 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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>Oo. Ick. Yes, I can't help but agree. But for ground vehicles, this would
>probably work better, right? And I *know* there are different gas mileages
>for city and road, but they're close...
>
Yes, but only because fuel capacities are so much lower, and therfore the
differences are smaller
>>PS. Remember that pilots like to land with enough fuel to do several
>>approach & landing sequences. If they know they'll burn 4,000 lbs on the
>>return trip, they'll head back when they get down to 6-7,000 lbs of fuel
>>left, not when they get down to 4,100 lbs.
>>
>And the actual effective range for a fighter or bomber is only how far it
>can go on 1/3 of its fuel supply... 1/3 to get there, 1/3 to fight with,
>and 1/3 to get home.
Unless the plan to do an IFR (in-flight refueling) which is prety quick
and painless. The KC-135 that is used to do 90% of the USAF IFR's can
carry a payload of 120,00 lbs of fuel, and, once a connection is made,
can dispense fuel at a rate of 4,000 lbs per second (needing only 2-3
seconds to refuel a fighter, 4-6 for a bomber like the b-1 or b-2).
A B-2 Spirit (the stealth bomber) has a HUGE range. The closest US
airbase to Iraq is on the island of Diego Garcia in the SouthWest Indian
Ocean. A B-2 can launch from Diego Garcia, fly over Iraq and release it's
payload, and return. It will land with between 20-30% of it's fuel
remaining.
| David A. Fair
Think Different | SDS International
| dfair@sdslink.com
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV: Bibliography
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 97 10:16:56 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
cc: <champ-l@omg.org>
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>> You kidding me? Of course they were... they had a Brick, a Gadgeteer, a
>> Detective, um... a character w/ Shrinking and Flight (okay, more shrinking
>> than the others, okay?), and, um... a comedic sidekick for the Detective.
>> (Those would be Monty, Gadget, Chip, Zipper?, and Dale.) Sounds like a
>> superhero team to me... and look at the villains they fought!
>
>
> I'd put them more at normal level heroes than superheroes.
>"Street level" supers at the highest.
>
>
Maybe "Curb-Level"? :-)
| David A. Fair
Think Different | SDS International
| dfair@sdslink.com
X-Sender: wga@pop.cwru.edu
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 12:48:41 -0500
From: Will Austin <wga@po.cwru.edu>
Subject: RE: Thermonecular Devices
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<x-rich>At 05:09 PM 11/3/97 -0800, you wrote:
>
>-> From Trigon@classic.msn.com Mon Nov 3 16:58:22 1997
>->
>-> Jeremiah Driscoll
>->
>-> Point well taken. Kal could take it... but had he ever? I mean,
had he,
>-> Pre-Crisis, had to take a nuke on the chin? And what happened to
everything
>-> around him when the nuke went off?
>->
>-> He Sure did!! It was in the Dark Knight series! A wonderful comic
book! And
>-> even though he took it on the chin, it put a real hurtin on him!!!!
In this
>-> instance, he grabbed the bomb, and was holding it when it went off.
He was
>-> cut off from the suns rays from the blast, and that was perhaps what
hurt him
>-> most.
>->
>
>Dark Knight was post-crisis. Pre-crisis Supes wouldn't have had such a
hard time.
The pre-Crisis Superman regularly flew in and around
<bold>stars</bold>--a nuke wouldn't much bother him. . .
============================================================================
Nomad
wga@po.cwru.edu
myrtth@geocities.com
"Men do not care how nobly they live, but only how long; although it is within the reach of every
man to live nobly, but within no man's power to live long."
--Seneca
============================================================================
</x-rich>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:31:13 -0800
From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell)
Subject: RE: Thermonecular Devices
X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII
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-> From jdriscol@vt.edu Tue Nov 4 10:22:45 1997
-> Right. I still agree with this. But no one has given me an answer where DC
-> had him take a nuke in continuity. This was my point. Even if I have a
-> character as powerful as Supes, I ain't gonna set off a nuke in my campaign
-> world. Supes couldn't contain the blast, just survive it himself. I never
-> disputed that. But DC and I agree that setting off a nuke would drastically
-> change the campaign (comic) world, so we won't do it.
-> Can anyone tell me how they would nuke Superman (on Earth) and not have it
-> effect the rest of the comics that DC puts out? (Besides poor editing and
-> retcons, that is...)00000
->
-> - Jerry
->
->
Hundreds and hundreds of nuclear bombs have been detonated on earth without
much direct effect on people's lives. Just lure Nukeproofman out to some
remote area before dropping the bomb on him.
-Sam
Comments: Authenticated sender is <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
From: "The Ineffable Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 19:01:29 +0000
Subject: Re: Current Threads
Reply-to: ghoyle1@airmail.net
Priority: normal
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> > Seeing as we have current threads discussing the merits of HTH attack,
> > Resurrection in Champions, and have recently wound down a talk on
> > Desolid, I was wondering if someone would explain how linked works? Can
> > you still use the powers seperatly, or do they become "fused" into one
> > power?
> >
> > And isn't telepathy a violation of the target's rights?
>
> I vote we just kill him right now.
Killing's too good fer 'im.
----------------------------------
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com)
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf
and the PANGAEA Project!
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 14:02:53 -0500 (EST)
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: The Ressurection Man
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Greetings,
The Ressurection Man has one power:
He dies and he comes back.
RM is on the panel's chopping block. I can only hope he
dosen't give the collective gaming minds here too much trouble.
-Jason
P.S. - It is just me, or does _every_single_one_ of my posts end up becoming
rules disputes or arguements through its evolution as threads?
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 14:08:09 -0500 (EST)
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Super Shamus
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Greetings,
Super Shamus, an ex-P.I., has one power:
Telelocation.
In other words, he can find people.
I was thinking something along the lines of a Detect Sense with
variable Sf/x, coupled with Clairsentience (with enough range to cover a
large city).
Yet again, I strain thine brains. Thou art wise and valorous--
if ye dare post upon this topic...
-Jason
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:15:06 -0800
From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell)
Subject: RE: Thermonecular Devices
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-> From jdriscol@vt.edu Tue Nov 4 10:42:39 1997
->
-> Okay, and this would be impressive HOW? If it doesn't have an impact on the
-> character at all (Radiation Accidents aside) and no one even knows about it
-> (which isn't necessarily true, in your example) then why bother? Woulld you
-> for the plot device? That's the only way I see it mattering, and then you
-> don't need the write-up... it's a plot device. I have plot device villains
-> in my games sometimes, they're just difficult to write up and have scads of
-> points. But I still use 'em, I just happen to know what they can do (in
-> general) just like I know what a nuke would do (in general).
->
What do you want me to do, run your game for you? Maybe you will never
have use for a nuclear-bomb write-up, and that's fine, but I have used a
few, and will probably use a few more. Sure, I could have just faked it,
but why should I when it is such a simple exercise to write one up in
Champions terms?
I'm not trying to force you to write them up, but I think other people should
be able to, if they want, without getting this "It's a plot device that
should not be written up." attitude from this list. I'm not saying you've
displayed this attitude (I honestly don't remember who did) but I know I've
seen it here more than once and it puzzles and annoys me.
-Sam
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:15:35 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Hand to Hand Attacks, Tasers vs Billy Clubs
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Hi all, been a bit since I've got a chance to catch up with the e-mail here.
Seems like there have been some major conversations going on. I have a
question. Player of mine wants something simliar to a taser and he bought
it as a hand to hand attack, don't think nnd, just a hand to hand electrical
attack. Now he brought it to me hth (str doesn't figure in -1/2).
Meanwhile another player of mine with a billy club has just hth for the club
and says the taser should be bought as an Energy Blast with no range instead
of hth with no strength. This is a major difference in points as far as my
player is concerned. We use to handle it as being a 0 point disad, but now
two players are at odds. What would you do? How would you justify the more
expensive EB, no range vs the cheaper hth, no strength. As a matter of
fact, quick run down here.
2d6 EB, No Range 7 pts.
2d6 HTH, No Strength 4 pts.
2d6 HTH 6 pts.
Advise? Maybe there is justification for the more expensive EB, but I can't
see it. Thanks and talk at you later.
Sparx
====================================================
I'll fire aimlessly if you don't come out!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:22:23 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: The Ressurection Man
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>Greetings,
> The Ressurection Man has one power:
> He dies and he comes back.
>
> RM is on the panel's chopping block. I can only hope he
>dosen't give the collective gaming minds here too much trouble.
>
> -Jason
>
>P.S. - It is just me, or does _every_single_one_ of my posts end up becoming
>rules disputes or arguements through its evolution as threads?
Well, when I approached the list about a simliar character here is the
answer I got. Please note: I believe this did cause a rules dispute but
this is eventually what I did go with. If it is wrong sorry, but it is
accepted in my gaming group.
1d6 Transform: Dead Body to Living Body
Cumulative
Self Only
Extra Time: 1 min
Trigger: Death
I have used this to simulate a Cat character's nine lives by adding on
9 Non-recoverable Charges
And I have used this to simulate an Immortal by adding on
Not if Beheaded
Both have gone over well with the players in the group and the owners' of
the characters. Hope that helps out.
Sparx
====================================================
I'll fire aimlessly if you don't come out!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
X-Originating-IP: [206.88.2.1]
From: "Todd Hanson" <badtodd@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: The Ressurection Man
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 13:38:40 CST
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ALONE AT MIDNIGHT says:
>Greetings,
> The Ressurection Man has one power:
> He dies and he comes back.
You will never get a decisive answer from the list on this. Every time
this comes up (about every 6 months or so) it breaks down to the
following options (I'm sure I'll be corrected for forgetting one)
a) Buy regen and lots of body. Either straight out body, or body with
invisible power effects, or body with a limitation 'only to keep me
alive', but basically, buy lots of body.
b) Have the GM assign some arbitrary amount to pay for 'cannot die'.
Some people consider this to be another kind of life support. This cost
may be 100 pts or it may be 0 pts - depends on how important it is to a
GM to have an immortal PC.
c) A triggered transform/summon/aid when you die (or go negative body).
Basically, xd6 transform dead me to live me, or xd6 summon 'live' me, or
xd6 aid to body.
I think those were the most common suggestions that are made for this
power. Basically it comes down to: there is no clean way to do it. If
it's for an NPC, dont worry about it, it just happens. If it's for a
PC, figure out how much you (the GM I'm assuming) thinks it is worth and
tell them to pay it. Trying to figure out a game mechanics way to do it
will never make everyone happy.
I had a PC who 'couldnt die' in my game (no fancy powers, just 30/30
resistant defenses). The villians loved to test the 'impossible to
kill' theory. (They say you cannot die.. well, you've never faced my
MEGA-RAY!!) I got a chance to haul out the real nasty attacks without
worrying about killing a PC (and put a little fear into the PCs with 5/5
resistant - oh shit! thats a 6 dice killing attack! I better go fight
agents and leave HIM to someone else!)
>P.S. - It is just me, or does _every_single_one_ of my posts end up
becoming
>rules disputes or arguements through its evolution as threads?
Yep, happens to everyone when they first join the list. You ask all the
things you've always wondered about (or think you can stump the list
with). Regardless of how many times they've been hashed over before,
several people on the list will be only too happy to argue about them
again.
I friendly piece of advice. Don't ask any questions that are 'link'
related. I will send someone to your house to kill you.
Todd
-------------------------------------------------------
Please note that I only SEND from this address - I do
not receive email at this address. Please reply to me
at badtodd@dacmail.net :) thanks!
-------------------------------------------------------
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com>
Subject: Super Shamus
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:42:04 -0500
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>In other words, he can find people.
How about... Mind Scan?
Dave Mattingly
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: The Ressurection Man
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:43:35 -0800 (PST)
Cc: hero-l@omg.org
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Well;
if you don't mind stealing from Fuzion. This power costs 4 power
points in Fuzion; which is either a +1 adv on regeneration to have it work
past death, or a 20 point add on to regeneration for the same.
Must define a common special effect vs. which it doesn't work, etc...
>
> Greetings,
> The Ressurection Man has one power:
> He dies and he comes back.
>
> RM is on the panel's chopping block. I can only hope he
> dosen't give the collective gaming minds here too much trouble.
>
> -Jason
>
> P.S. - It is just me, or does _every_single_one_ of my posts end up becoming
> rules disputes or arguements through its evolution as threads?
>
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com>
Subject: The Ressurection Man
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:43:50 -0500
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How much time between when he dies and when he's resurrected? Are there
any limitations? Does he heal from normal wounds, too, or just fatal
ones?
Dave Mattingly
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Super Shamus
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:45:44 -0800 (PST)
Cc: hero-l@omg.org
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Mind Scan
> Super Shamus, an ex-P.I., has one power:
> Telelocation.
> In other words, he can find people.
>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:59:21 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: The Ressurection Man
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>Greetings,
> The Ressurection Man has one power:
> He dies and he comes back.
>
> RM is on the panel's chopping block. I can only hope he
>dosen't give the collective gaming minds here too much trouble.
Arrg..I don't know whether to give this guy a medal for raising these
questions, or beat him over the head with a wiffle-bat...
I'd say give him +X BODY Aid, Triggered by Dying, Time Delayed. Oh, and buy
him 30 points of Life Support under the SFX of 'Afterlife Support' (often
given to the undead) to sustain him through his less-than-alive periods.
Make it Uncontrolled, too, so dying doesn't stop the Afterlife Support.
That, or give him LOTS of Resistant DEF (multiple hardened), Only to prevent
the loss of the last 5 BODY, plus some extra BODY, only to avoid dying. So
he looks dead, but you have to disintigrate him to really do the job. Like this:
+10 BODY, Only to Avoid Dying (-1 1/2)
45rPD/45rED Armor, Double Hardened (+1/2), Only to Protect Death-Avoiding
BODY (-1 1/2)
Regeneration 1 BODY/5 minutes.
Total Life Support, Still Suffers, Just won't Die (-1 1/2)
Not cheap, but hey, it's his only 'power'.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You know, I feel pretty good."
"Yeah, me too. I've got a real positive attitude."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:59:23 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Super Shamus
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>Greetings,
> Super Shamus, an ex-P.I., has one power:
> Telelocation.
> In other words, he can find people.
>
> I was thinking something along the lines of a Detect Sense with
>variable Sf/x, coupled with Clairsentience (with enough range to cover a
>large city).
Mind Scan.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You know, I feel pretty good."
"Yeah, me too. I've got a real positive attitude."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 14:04:01 -0600
From: John Stefanski <jstefanski@internetMCI.com>
Subject: How do you address this?
Reply-to: "jstefanski@iname.com" <jstefanski@iname.com>
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How do you address the Player Character who constantly wants to buy
equipment during a Champions game with money. These items are obviously
useful ones but should be purchased through experience points.
Items such as:
IR Goggles (IR Vision),
SCUBA Gear (Swimming),
High-Powered Scopes (Telescopic Sight)
Bulletproof Vest (Armor),
you get the picture.
Any help?
==============================
John Stefanski
"There can BE only one"
Send all replies to jstefanski@iname.com
==============================
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 14:07:34 -0600
From: John Stefanski <jstefanski@internetMCI.com>
Subject: And now for guns!
Reply-to: "jstefanski@iname.com" <jstefanski@iname.com>
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How do you address the Player Character who built his Champions character
as a hand to hand combatant but constantly picks up dropped (or grabbed)
guns from the enemy agents to get a ranged attack. These weapons are also
useful ones and should be purchased through experience points.
Any help?
==============================
John Stefanski
"There can BE only one"
Send all replies to jstefanski@iname.com
==============================
X-Sender: rsimpson@svlhome1.beasys.com
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 20:20:30 +0000
From: Bob Simpson <rsimpson@beasys.com>
Subject: FBI report on Ritual/"Satanic" Abuse
Cc: champ-l@omg.org, Collie <collie@netcom.com&>
Scott Ruggels <scott.ruggels@3do.com>
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<x-rich>At 07:54 24 10 97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> (It's also pretty clear, especially from his opening comments under "The
>Satanic Cult Conspiracy," that he doesn't know what he's talking about when
>it comes to factual matters. Any cop I've ever been in contact with and
>discussed the topic with knows for an absolute fact that there really are
>Satanists out there making blood sacrifices, and sometimes human
>sacrifices.
Many of the law enforcement officers I've spoken to also "knows for an
absolute fact that" role-playing games are a tool of the devil. Like
yourself, I think it is important to discount the "conventional widsom" of
any group without evidence.
>Shomashak wrote it off as paranoid superstitious poppycock,
>and as far as I can tell did so without doing any research on the matter at
>all.)
I can't comment on anything written by the "Shomashak" person you mention,
but as to available research, you might start here:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/ra_study.htm
They also have a copy of a comprehensive FBI study of childhood ritual
abuse: Kenneth V. Lanning, "Investigator's Guide to Allegations of 'Ritual'
Child Abuse", Behavioral Science Unit, National Center for the Analysis of
Violent Crime, Federal Bureau of Investigation, FBI Academy, Quantico,
Virginia 22135 (1992) <<http://www.religioustolerance.org/fbi_01.htm>
Kenneth Lanning is a Supervisory Special Agent at the FBI Academy in
Virginia who has combated the sexual victimization of children since 1981.
He police forces. works at the FBI Behavioral Science Unit which assists
police forces throughout the US. The group is often called in as consultants
by local and state police forces.
A short quote from the conclusion of the report:
For at least eight years American law enforcement has been aggressively
investigating the allegations of victims of ritual abuse. There is little or
no evidence for the portion of their allegations that deals with large-scale
baby breeding, human sacrifice, and organized satanic conspiracies.
Hope this helps people find the relevant research and draw their own conclusions.
-- Bob
>>>>
<excerpt>
[Modern Education] has produced a vast population able to read but unable
to distinguish what is worth reading, an easy prey to sensations and
cheap appeals.
-- G. M. Trevelyan (1942)
</excerpt><<<<<<<<
</x-rich>
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:33:15 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Hand to Hand Attacks, Tasers vs Billy Clubs
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IMO, A taser should be a no-range energy attack. I made the mistake
once of letting somebody buy hand-attack with the limitation that
strength doesn't add. This is extremely unbalancing.
Curt
> From daemon@omg.org Tue Nov 4 13:52 CST 1997
> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:15:35 -0600 (CST)
> X-S psansone@i1.net
>
> Hi all, been a bit since I've got a chance to catch up with the e-mail here.
> Seems like there have been some major conversations going on. I have a
> question. Player of mine wants something simliar to a taser and he bought
> it as a hand to hand attack, don't think nnd, just a hand to hand electrical
> attack. Now he brought it to me hth (str doesn't figure in -1/2).
> Meanwhile another player of mine with a billy club has just hth for the club
> and says the taser should be bought as an Energy Blast with no range instead
> of hth with no strength. This is a major difference in points as far as my
> player is concerned. We use to handle it as being a 0 point disad, but now
> two players are at odds. What would you do? How would you justify the more
> expensive EB, no range vs the cheaper hth, no strength. As a matter of
> fact, quick run down here.
>
> 2d6 EB, No Range 7 pts.
> 2d6 HTH, No Strength 4 pts.
> 2d6 HTH 6 pts.
>
> Advise? Maybe there is justification for the more expensive EB, but I can't
> see it. Thanks and talk at you later.
>
>
> Sparx
>
> ====================================================
> I'll fire aimlessly if you don't come out!
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>
From: "Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
John and Ron Prins" <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Comic book martial artists....
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 21:38:46 -0000
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>>A highly trained martial artist would be fully aware of where the nerve
>>centres in the body of a human being were, and where a blow could be
placed
>>in order to incapacitate/kill.
>An ordinary person, yes. But this doesn't stop Joe MA from hitting that guy
>in Powered Armor just as hard (same dice being thrown around). Knowing what
>nerve clusters to hit doesn't help when you're facing somebody in
>Maximillain Plate.
Oh I don't know about that.. how about the Ma driving the chin plate up into
the guys jaw? Or hitting him in undefended spots? Isn' this how Find
Weakness works? Well, even a martial artist didn't have find weakness I see
no reason why he should be penalised even further. Besides have you ever
worn armour?? I have and believe stuff that never hurt before (falling over,
a chummy punch in the shoulder etc.) can put you into a whole new world of
pain you did not know existed (sometimes in places you did not know
existed!)
>>In this scenario I see no reason why a MA should not be able to take down
a
>>brick.
>But that's _one_ scenario that assumes said Brick is arranged exactly like
a
>normal human being. And I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that many
aren't.
I take the point, but I refer again to a typical (in comics anyway) martial
arts skill - Style analysis. A MA could see that an alien bruiser keeps his
arms closed to his body even when swinging.... hmmmm..... could he have a
nerve plexus (not a real medical term... but it sounds good) in his armpit?
Boom- a quick kick to the arm pit. I refuse to believe that the MA could not
spot a pair of eyes, or a join (shoulder, knee, elbow etc) on anything but
the most bizarre looking species.
>Doors are only as strong as their locks and hinges - meaning, not very, for
>most doors. My point is, there _are_ limits to what a 'normal' human fist
or
>foot can do - just like Dark Champs puts a limit on what a 'normal' bladed
>weapon can do. I'm not saying that making all standard damage martial arts
>strikes 'Reduced Penetration' is a perfect solution, but it does prevent
the
>kind of wierdness that allows that boxer to tear off some poor normal's
head
>with one punch (an exagguration, to be sure, but not by much) or to put his
>fist through steel plate (DEF 7, and an 8D6 punch is nowhere near out of
>reach for a boxer).
Your right, for normal people. But then, comic book martial artists aren't
normal people are they. Mr.Joe Public who goes to his local Dojo every
weekend is not a 50 or 75 point character. He has those all important PS's
to buy, and his obligatory KS hobby. At best he probably has two maneuvers.
Black Shadow on the other hand, Mr.ComicBookMartialArtistBloke, now he has
points to spare.....
TTFN from Chris!
http://www.lynch1.demon.co.uk
ICQ: 3503901
Subject: Current Threads
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 97 16:47:36 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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Seeing as we have current threads discussing the merits of HTH attack,
Resurrection in Champions, and have recently wound down a talk on
Desolid, I was wondering if someone would explain how linked works? Can
you still use the powers seperatly, or do they become "fused" into one
power?
And isn't telepathy a violation of the target's rights?
:-)
Dave
"Who always sits with his back to the wall, and his eyes on the door"
| David A. Fair
Think Different | SDS International
| dfair@sdslink.com
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 14:04:18 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: And now for guns!
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At 02:07 PM 11/4/97 -0600, John Stefanski wrote:
>How do you address the Player Character who built his Champions character
>as a hand to hand combatant but constantly picks up dropped (or grabbed)
>guns from the enemy agents to get a ranged attack. These weapons are also
>useful ones and should be purchased through experience points.
Have him buy a VPP for this purpose, with the OIF Limitation to
represent the fact that, while a weapon can be taken away, he can always
replace it with any other nearby Weapon of Opportunity.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 14:08:28 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: How do you address this?
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At 02:04 PM 11/4/97 -0600, John Stefanski wrote:
>How do you address the Player Character who constantly wants to buy
>equipment during a Champions game with money. These items are obviously
>useful ones but should be purchased through experience points.
>
>Items such as:
>IR Goggles (IR Vision),
>SCUBA Gear (Swimming),
>High-Powered Scopes (Telescopic Sight)
>Bulletproof Vest (Armor),
>you get the picture.
Like the PC who's always picking up others' weapons and using them, this
character should have a VPP. It doesn't have to be a huge one (these
aren't really expensive items pointwise, nor cashwise), but just enough to
cover the equipment he wants to be able to grab on a moment's notice.
Note that this should be allowed occasionally without a fuss, but if
it's being done frequently, then a price should have to be paid.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:10:52 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: And now for guns!
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>>How do you address the Player Character who built his Champions character
>>as a hand to hand combatant but constantly picks up dropped (or grabbed)
>>guns from the enemy agents to get a ranged attack. These weapons are also
>>useful ones and should be purchased through experience points.
>Well, I usually let them know that if they want a weapon, they need to pay
>for it. If he's doing this abusively (in your opinion), tell him it is
>bugging you.
I disagree. Those weapons he's grabbing _have_ been paid for - by the enemy!
They took the OAF limitation, so they have to take their lumps for doing it.
All Joe-gun-grabber needs is Weapon Familiarities (or it's -3 OCV with those
weapons). If you want to prevent this sort of thing, those agents will have
to be toting personal foci (which often doesn't fit the SFX). As long as he
doesn't KEEP the guns (i.e. when combat's over, he drops them) he shouldn't
have to pay points for them.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You know, I feel pretty good."
"Yeah, me too. I've got a real positive attitude."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 14:11:25 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Super Shamus
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At 02:42 PM 11/4/97 -0500, Dave Mattingly wrote:
>>In other words, he can find people.
>
>How about... Mind Scan?
Based on CON, most likely (depending on the SFX).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: ...and then, there was Light.
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Date: 04 Nov 1997 17:14:35 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
BG> But a normal strike *will* cause the Damage Shield to affect the
BG> target, unless it's your assertion that successfully hitting the
BG> character who has Damage Shield with a normal strike does not
BG> constitute a successful hand-to-hand Attack Roll against said
BG> character.
I think I am confused as to who has the damage shield here. I think these
examples should clarify things. A has a Damage Shield, B does not. Damage
Shields only come into play when dealing with non-ranged attacks.
1. A grabs B. A's Damage Shield affects B.
2. A attacks B with any other non-ranged attack or manuever. This
includes, but is not limited to, strikes, HAs, HKAs, Move Bys, and Move
Throughs. A's Damage Shield will not affect B.
3. B blocks A's non-ranged attack (#2). A's Damage Shield does not affect
B. A block maneuver does not require physical contact.
4. B attacks A with any non-ranged attack or maneuver. A's Damage Shield
affects B.
In regards to #2: if you want a "damage aura" to affect someone, buy it as
a normal HA or HKA.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: And now for guns!
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 04 Nov 1997 17:15:50 -0500
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>>>>> "JS" == John Stefanski <jstefanski@internetMCI.com> writes:
JS> How do you address the Player Character who built his Champions character
JS> as a hand to hand combatant but constantly picks up dropped (or grabbed)
JS> guns from the enemy agents to get a ranged attack. These weapons are also
JS> useful ones and should be purchased through experience points.
Well, there you have it: they "should be purchased through experience points."
Anything that appears as a power that a character uses frequently should be
paid for.
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\ Earth, presumably from outer space.
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Hand to Hand Attacks, Tasers vs Billy Clubs
Mail-Copies-To: never
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>>>>> "S" == Sparx <psansone@i1.net> writes:
S> Player of mine wants something simliar to a taser and he bought it as a
S> hand to hand attack, don't think nnd, just a hand to hand electrical
S> attack. Now he brought it to me hth (str doesn't figure in -1/2).
Um, no. Try a no-range Energy Blast as the basic power.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Hand to Hand Attacks, Tasers vs Billy Clubs
Mail-Copies-To: never
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>>>>> "CH" == Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> writes:
CH> IMO, A taser should be a no-range energy attack. I made the mistake
CH> once of letting somebody buy hand-attack with the limitation that
CH> strength doesn't add. This is extremely unbalancing.
Besides, it clearly contradicts how HA works. HA can *ONLY* be used in
addition to Strength. If it does not add to Strength, it does nothing.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds.
\
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:27:17 -0800
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger)
Subject: Re[2]: Help with TUSV
Content-Description: cc:Mail note part
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Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>>At 01:51 PM 11/3/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>> For that matter, I can point to at least one example of a motorcycle
>> gang showing up in a Western.
>>
>Brisco! And he kept one of the "mechanical horses," too, didn't he?
>- Jerry, whose opinion is that The Adventures of Brisco County, Jr
>was really a Sci-Fi show, masquerading as a Western...
And was also one of the best shows on TV in the past few seasons!
Too bad most of the viewing audience couldn't figure out if it was a
comedy/drama/sci-fi/western...
Richard
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Current Threads
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 04 Nov 1997 17:39:17 -0500
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>>>>> "DF" == David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> writes:
DF> I was wondering if someone would explain how linked works?
There is one aspect of linked that everyone agrees with: a power with the
Linked Limitation (the linked power) may only be used in conjunction with
the power to which it is linked (the base power). The base power must be
used in order to use the linked power; it cannot be used by itself.
There are two positions on how the base power is handled:
1. The base power, not having the Linked Limitation, may be used by itself
or with the linked power.
2. The base power may not be used without the linked power.
Those of the first camp tend to believe that any number of powers may be
used together, without power modifiers, as a single attack action, so long
as it is a single attack action and the character can pay the endurance
cost.
Those of the second camp tend to believe that the only way to use multiple
powers in a single attack requires power modifiers on the "stacked" powers.
Hero Games has provided contradictory rulings supporting both camps. The
only "right" answer at this time is, "whatever the GM decides".
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Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 14:41:42 -0800
From: Jim Dickinson <champion@cyberhighway.net>
Subject: Re: And now for guns!
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At 03:52 PM 11/4/97 +0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>At 02:07 PM 11/4/97 -0600, John Stefanski wrote:
>>How do you address the Player Character who built his Champions character
>>as a hand to hand combatant but constantly picks up dropped (or grabbed)
>>guns from the enemy agents to get a ranged attack. These weapons are also
>>useful ones and should be purchased through experience points.
>>
>Well, I usually let them know that if they want a weapon, they need to pay
>for it. If he's doing this abusively (in your opinion), tell him it is
>bugging you. If he persists, have the weapons jam or run out of ammo as a
>plot device, just when he needs them most.
This will work, but usually perpetuates the ill will between player and GM.
Frankly, if the weapons are there, then he _should_ be able to pick them
up and use them. If these are high-tech agents, have the agency "learn"
from being beaten by their own weapons from this guy, and have them build
in security into the weapons. A hidden safety button would be a start, and
if they are ultra-high-tech, then you could add in a self-destruct
mechanism is the weapon is fired by someone not wearing a special glove, or
having a certain signature palmprint. That would sting the player some, too.
Otherwise, inform the player that you will begin withholding experience
points to pay for the use of weapons... I did this with one player, and he
was fairly OK with it. He was one of those kinds that liked to find
loopholes in the rules. (one time he tried to take a separate Physical
Limitation for each limb on a quadriplegic mentalist character)...ugh.
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: And now for guns!
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:57:55 -0800 (PST)
Cc: hero-l@omg.org
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I've always run my Super games with the ruling that normal
equipment costs no points. Normal equipment as in normal for a normal to own.
So a handgun would be zero points, but an M-1 tank would cost.
An AK-47 would cost, unless the game took place in Somolia or a similar locale.
As for dealing when the PC picks up a villians super weapon, if the
villian bought it as universal, the PC can use it, but some plot device is
going to nullify it later on. If it was bought independant, the PC can keep
it for good, but I'll eventually get the points for it. Or a plot device
might still get it.
>
> How do you address the Player Character who built his Champions character
> as a hand to hand combatant but constantly picks up dropped (or grabbed)
> guns from the enemy agents to get a ranged attack. These weapons are also
> useful ones and should be purchased through experience points.
Another not-so-related issue to remember is that some focus' have no
power of their own, but must be present to use the power. For instance
requiring a locke of hair to cast a spell. It's a focus, but if I lose that
hair I can get more, and the hair itself won't let someone else cast the spell.
Rook
Also known as Arcady on #herochat, #Fuzionchat, #gurps, #V&V,
and #SuperHeroChat in DALnet IRC
Super Hero Links Page:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 15:57:14 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: And now for guns!
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At 02:07 PM 11/4/97 -0600, you wrote:
>How do you address the Player Character who built his Champions character
>as a hand to hand combatant but constantly picks up dropped (or grabbed)
>guns from the enemy agents to get a ranged attack. These weapons are also
>useful ones and should be purchased through experience points.
>
>Any help?
I never really have cared if someone picks stuff up, its no worse to me than
in a fantasy game where you grab the gear off of fallen monsters to me.
Generally speaking, the weapons that agents use are of poorer quality than
the hero has available to him naturally or with his own stuff. The 8D6
blaster autorifle is no better than Erg's 12D6 blast, is a focus, and has
charges, which even makes it more limited. I guess thats not standard Hero
line, but it works okay for me.
----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 19:35:03 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Current Threads
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On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, David Fair wrote:
> Seeing as we have current threads discussing the merits of HTH attack,
> Resurrection in Champions, and have recently wound down a talk on
> Desolid, I was wondering if someone would explain how linked works? Can
> you still use the powers seperatly, or do they become "fused" into one
> power?
>
> And isn't telepathy a violation of the target's rights?
I vote we just kill him right now.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 19:48:02 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Hand to Hand Attacks, Tasers vs Billy Clubs
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On 4 Nov 1997, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> >>>>> "CH" == Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> writes:
>
> CH> IMO, A taser should be a no-range energy attack. I made the mistake
> CH> once of letting somebody buy hand-attack with the limitation that
> CH> strength doesn't add. This is extremely unbalancing.
>
> Besides, it clearly contradicts how HA works. HA can *ONLY* be used in
> addition to Strength. If it does not add to Strength, it does nothing.
In a martial arts campaign I was in, we built all our far martial arts
powers as 'x' Dice of hand Attack with the limitation of "STR does not
add". We did this becuase most of us couldn't stand the rather convoluted
junk you have to wade through in UMA to add advantages to STR and
martial art. So we bought dice of HA and tacked on whatever advantage we
wanted for the power (like Autofire or Armor Piercing).
Now it woreked pretty well. One reason was that you had to buy 5 to 8
dice of HA to get the affect you wanted, then add in the Advantage. The
otehr was that HA was 5 points a die in that game.
Now, based on the description of HA in the BBB (page 73). It says that HA
can't be used by itself, it only adds to a character's attack. It then
gives the example that if a character was tied up and couldn't use his
STR, he couldn't use his HA. Fine by me. With the lim "STR does not
add", the character is still using his STR to make the attack, he even
pays for any base STR, but any STR dice are ignored, only the HA dice are
counted. Any situation which negates the STR will adversly affect the HA
dice as well.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 20:08:07 -0500 (EST)
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: And now for guns!
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A VPP, Firearms only (-1), change only when stolen from enemy (-1/2)
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 19:22:56 -0600
From: Tim Statler <tstatler@igateway.net>
Reply-To: tstatler@igateway.net
Subject: Re: Current Threads
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> >>>>> "DF" == David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> writes:
>
> DF> I was wondering if someone would explain how linked works?
>
<<SNIP>>
>
> Those of the second camp tend to believe that the only way to use multiple
> powers in a single attack requires power modifiers on the "stacked" powers.
>
> Hero Games has provided contradictory rulings supporting both camps. The
> only "right" answer at this time is, "whatever the GM decides".
>
RAT,
Thank you for being the voice of moderation about linked. Just seeing
the term appear anymore on the list scares me.
(especially since I sparked the debate when I first joined the list. :))
Tim Statler
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 20:25:58 -0500 (EST)
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Telecoation (Was Super Shamus)
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In regards to Mind Scan with Invisible power effects to represent
Teleocation:
I'm not sure if the power of Telelocoation allows him to find 'dead'
people as well...
....such as little Suzie Brucker's broken rotting corpse floating
in a river not far from where Reaver snapped her neck like a twig.
...in which case her brain is only so much grey matter leaking
into the town's water supply.
Of course, if she was playing tiddly-winks with the Idiot King
as part of his advanced intelligence cultivation project, ol' Supes
could probally track her with ease.
I'll have to converge with the hive mind on this one.
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 19:34:45 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: baron@mail.stlnet.com
From: Rob Kemp <baron@stlnet.com>
Subject: Re: And now for guns!
Cc: hero-l@omg.org
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At 02:07 PM 11/4/97 -0600, you wrote:
>How do you address the Player Character who built his Champions character
>as a hand to hand combatant but constantly picks up dropped (or grabbed)
>guns from the enemy agents to get a ranged attack. These weapons are also
>useful ones and should be purchased through experience points.
>
>Any help?
>
Simple. 4 Solutions.
1. Your average VIPER weapon relies on a simple technology. In the pistol
grip and glove of every VIPER agent is a small microchip key. If someone
grips the handle that does not have the chip within 3 ft. of the handle,
Boom!... or Zap!... Whatever you deem to be the proper negative
reinforcement. Anywhere from blowing his hand off to a localized electrical
zap that will take him out of the fight for the duration (won't HE feel silly)
2. Same microchip solution as above but the gun just won't work without the
microchip... then again the quick thinker will steal a glove.... then you
use the below solution.
3. He's not paid the points for it. Make him pay in other ways. Who does he
use these weapons on? Does he have a Code against Killing? The gun is an
unknown factor. A miss may harm a passing motorist or pedestrian. Property
damage caused by the weapon may lead to law suits. Assault with a deadly
weapon charge may take the character out of commission for an adventure or
two as the character deals with the charges. It may cost the hero his secret
ID if asked to appear in court. If one of his contacts is a police officer,
maybe he loses the contact as the police officer disagrees with his methods.
4. He's not paid the points for it. MAKE HIM PAY THE POINTS FOR IT. Any
adventure that he uses a gun or other weapon that he "finds", has any
experience points that he earned in it forfieted towards a fund to buying
him that weapon. He may as well use it in every adventure until its paid for
if he wants to use something he didn't pay for. If he wants the points back,
he can have them AFTER going through 5 adventures WITHOUT using the guns or
"found" weapons.
Nuff said and its good to be back on the list.
Subject: Re: And now for guns!
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 97 21:41:36 -0500
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
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Christopher Taylor ctaylor@cyberis.net 11/4/97 6:57 PM
>At 02:07 PM 11/4/97 -0600, you wrote:
>>How do you address the Player Character who built his Champions character
>>as a hand to hand combatant but constantly picks up dropped (or grabbed)
>>guns from the enemy agents to get a ranged attack. These weapons are also
>>useful ones and should be purchased through experience points.
>>
>>Any help?
>
>I never really have cared if someone picks stuff up, its no worse to me than
>in a fantasy game where you grab the gear off of fallen monsters to me.
>
>Generally speaking, the weapons that agents use are of poorer quality than
>the hero has available to him naturally or with his own stuff. The 8D6
>blaster autorifle is no better than Erg's 12D6 blast, is a focus, and has
>charges, which even makes it more limited. I guess thats not standard Hero
>line, but it works okay for me.
I tend to agree. Basically what's happening in the hard line is
requiring
player charaters to be hurt by Focii limitations but not applying the same
rules to the NPCs. If it's a Focus, it can be taken away and used by
someone
else. As long as the charater isn't walking off with it, he's free to
use
it without paying points. I do like the "personal focus" approach for
dealing
with particularly high tech/effective weapons however. It's just
Universal
Focii that I have a problem with the NPC/villians not having to deal with
the limitations of their gear.
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 21:08:25 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: How do you address this?
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> I've never had a problem with the Players wanting equipment w/o paying the
> points... Darren (who's playing a character w/ 15pt Wealth) actually said
> about radios, "I could buy them for the group, but you guys are gonna have
> to pay the points." My Players know the score up front. Set up the rules,
> and follow them yourself.
Hmmm. I'm just the opposite. I generally allow "normal" items to
be bought and used for 0 points, as long as they aren't the character's
main focus/ main item for X. If they want a high powered flashlight while
searching the sewers, they grab one from the hardware store. If they want
some paint (to disguise their vehicle) I don't make them purchase
disguise, UBO, vehicles only, OAF paint. If a character wants to carry
around a (small) gun, fine. That 6-shot colt won't really be all that
effective -- the stats assure that most supers will ignore it. Now, you
get to the more expensive (and useful, and rarer) guns, you pay points.
Same thing if the character is built around the guns. He'll need
specially built and modified versions for himself just to be competitive.
Radios? Free, but don't expect too much from them. They work. A
bug to listen to that corrupt politician? Free with an electrician roll
by the powered armor character. These things are unimportant enough not
to be worth points. To charge goes against common sense.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 97 03:09:25 UT
From: "Jeff Tolle" <Trigon@classic.msn.com>
Subject: RE: The Ressurection Man
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More power to ya!! I tried a similar trick with a dial H for Hero type
character. It drove me CRAZY after a while. Although I may try it again now
that I have hero maker.
Jeff Tolle
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-champ-l@omg.org On Behalf Of David Streeter
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 1997 6:23 AM
To: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: The Ressurection Man
On 4 Nov 97 at 13:38, Todd Hanson enunciated sonorously:
> ALONE AT MIDNIGHT says:
>
> >Greetings,
> > The Ressurection Man has one power:
> > He dies and he comes back.
>
>
> You will never get a decisive answer from the list on this. Every time
> this comes up (about every 6 months or so) it breaks down to the
> following options (I'm sure I'll be corrected for forgetting one)
>
> a) Buy regen and lots of body. Either straight out body, or body with
> invisible power effects, or body with a limitation 'only to keep me
> alive', but basically, buy lots of body.
>
> b) Have the GM assign some arbitrary amount to pay for 'cannot die'.
> Some people consider this to be another kind of life support. This cost
> may be 100 pts or it may be 0 pts - depends on how important it is to a
> GM to have an immortal PC.
>
> c) A triggered transform/summon/aid when you die (or go negative body).
> Basically, xd6 transform dead me to live me, or xd6 summon 'live' me, or
> xd6 aid to body.
A player in my campaign has a similar character - he's an
"intelligence on a chip", like Batman in "Paper Scissors Stone", or
Diehard from Image. He has multiple bodies, with different powers,
but only one active at a time.
He bought it as duplication, with "only one body at a time" as a
general limitation. With experience, he gets a new body every 8 XP or
so (or is that twice as many bodies? I forget).
This could be used for "Resurrection Man" (It's very much like "Dr
Who" too). The special effects of the duplication is that his body is
reborn in whatever fashion you wish. You also have the option of
having different powers. (Like Croyd Crenson from Wildcards).
It's great for this player, - he loves making new characters, and
now gets the opportunity to have new "Sonic Assault" or "Underwater
Action" version of himself etc. every few months.
It's pretty balanced, IMHO, since he starts with lower effective
points (duplication is EXPENSIVE) and it costs 8 XP or so to die.
SurturZ
--------------------------------------------------
David Streeter <surturz@zip.com.au>
"Information always has a physical manifestation"
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 22:23:01 -0700
From: Eric Chaves <rambler@sowest.net>
Subject: Re: How do you address this?
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>How do you address the Player Character who constantly wants to buy
>equipment during a Champions game with money. These items are obviously
>useful ones but should be purchased through experience points.
>
>Items such as:
>IR Goggles (IR Vision),
>SCUBA Gear (Swimming),
>High-Powered Scopes (Telescopic Sight)
>Bulletproof Vest (Armor),
>you get the picture.
>
>Any help?
>
>==============================
>John Stefanski
>
>"There can BE only one"
>
>Send all replies to jstefanski@iname.com
>==============================
In DC, they have some optional rules that the player gets a certain amount
of points for equipment like this. The amounts are broken down so
depending if the characters are going on an investigation, light combat, or
heavy combat. You get more points in different catagories depending on the
mission.
Geek Code
****************************************************************************
GCS d++ H s:+ !g !p au+ a- w++ v++ C++++ UL+ P? L+ 3- E? N+++ K- W--- M++ !V
po--- Y+ t++ 5 j R++ G'' tv++ b++ D++ B--- e- u** h+ f+ r n+ y**
****************************************************************************
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 22:15:19 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: And now for guns!
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John Stefanski wrote:
>
> How do you address the Player Character who built his Champions character
> as a hand to hand combatant but constantly picks up dropped (or grabbed)
> guns from the enemy agents to get a ranged attack. These weapons are also
> useful ones and should be purchased through experience points.
I am unclear on the situation. Is the player grabbing universal OAFs,
using them against the agents for the rest of the run (or until they run
out of ammo) and then starting over with the next run? Frankly, this
would bother me not at all, since this is part of the nature of an
accessible focus, provided that the PC has the appropriate Weapon
Familiarities.
Is the player cleverly raiding the arms locker before the battle and
blasting the agents with their own arsenal? The first two times, that is
good and clever play. After that, it is your fault if the agents don't
catch on and protect their stores a bit better.
Is the player trying to hold onto the weapon past the end of the run,
when there is no good plot reason to do so? Then, simply explain to the
player that this is not how the system is *supposed* to work. I find
that many players will respond well to the "put yourself in the GM's
place" talk. In any event, give him his choice:
1) He can find a role-playing reason to ditch the weapons in character,
such as crushing them contemptuously.
2) He can continue to use "found" weapons with the proviso that they will
tend to break (jammed, 11-), backfire (add side effect to that) and
otherwise turn into pains in the butt.
3) He can take a VPP "Found Weapons Pool". The control cost should take
Focused(-1/2), Changes under limited circumstances(-1/2) and No control
of what powers are available(-1/2). I say "Focused(-1/2)" since some
weapons may be OIF or IAF, although most will be OAF, and some will be
bulky or fragile, but IIF weapons are very rare indeed. As time goes on,
he may wish to buy off some of the "No control over powers" limitation,
and keep an arsenal of his own at his base, or he may just ditch weapons
to make room in the pool.
4) He can keep weapons that he finds, but half of his experience will go
towards purchasing the weapon as a power.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Comments: Authenticated sender is <korthmat@pilot.msu.edu>
From: "Matt Korth" <korthmat@cps.msu.edu>
Organization: I don't think so, Tim.
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 02:27:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Current Threads
Priority: normal
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> Seeing as we have current threads discussing the merits of HTH attack,
> Resurrection in Champions, and have recently wound down a talk on
> Desolid, I was wondering if someone would explain how linked works? Can
> you still use the powers seperatly, or do they become "fused" into one
> power?
>
> And isn't telepathy a violation of the target's rights?
You *do* realize that we're going to have to hurt you, don't you? It's
for your own good...
--
korthmat@cps.msu.edu http://www.cps.msu.edu/~korthmat
*** People who send me UCE/UBE will be crucified. ***
"That's SULTAN Vile Betrayer to you!"
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 11:44:04 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Telelocation (Was Super Shamus)
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At 08:25 PM 11/4/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
>In regards to Mind Scan with Invisible power effects to represent
>Teleocation:
>I'm not sure if the power of Telelocoation allows him to find 'dead'
>people as well...
<snipped>
> Of course, if she was playing tiddly-winks with the Idiot King
>as part of his advanced intelligence cultivation project, ol' Supes
>could probally track her with ease.
> I'll have to converge with the hive mind on this one.
>
After you get back, take a look at Detect again. Pay the 3 points for a
base Detect (person). Then tack on Discriminatory (5), Targeting Sense
(20), Range (5), 360 Degree Sensing (10), and at least +16 in Telescopic
Sense (24). This gives you a power that takes a 1/2 Phase to activate,
which has a range of over 1km w/ no penalties (add +2 Telescopic to double),
and can accurately pinpoint a certain individual person. 67 points. And,
if you feel squeemish about letting it work through *anything*, tack on
N-Ray "Vision" (even though it's not sight. +20 points. As long as you
define the Detect properly, you can even get dead people.
I still stick by Mind Scan, Invisible Power Effects (at least at +1/2),
possibly with a Limitation as to level of effect (as someone else
suggested). The only real reason to do the Detect would be if you really
wanted to get to the dead bodies.
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 12:05:17 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Dr. TekNo & Light vs. Sightsneak
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At 11:44 AM 11/5/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
>Dr. TekNo is a Hi-Tech who has the ability to call upon the floating
>G-236 satelite through his Omega-CPU. Using the Omega-CPU, he can
>see people from a bird's eye view and zap them with a large-radius
>pulse blast.
> ...how would you represent this?
>
Um... Area Effect EB, No Range Penalties, Indirect (with a Limitation on
the Indirect to represent that it may only be from directly overhead;
buildings, overhangs, etc. must get vaporized first).
>The psychotic villian Light is mass-murdering a bus load of nuns. Edgar
>Edison, reporter by night, slips onto the scene as the uncanny
>Sightsneak (who has Invisibility, sight group only). He's hoping his
>power of invisibility will make him immune to Light's powers...
> What's the call on this? Sightsneak's Sf/x: would theay protect
>him from injury (what about partial injury?), or would Sightsneak's
>player have to buy Desoild (only vs. light based attacks)? Would you let
>Sightsneak buy this power 'on the field,' so to speak, if he had the CP?
>
Well, he hasn't payed the points for it. I probably wouldn't allow it, as
it is a pretty significant ability. Let me try and understand your
reasoning: SS bends light (all wavelengths) around his body in order to
become Invisible. Your question is, why can't he bend a light-based EB?
Well, he can't always, although this may be SFX of Light missing his attack
roll by just one... it could be bought as extra DCV v. Light attacks,
Linked to Invisibility.
And I wouldn't have (much) of a problem with buying "power stunts" "in the
field" as long as the guy had the XP and it fit within previous SFX (from
original powers and any other "power stunts").
- Jerry
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 00:23:52 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: ...and then, there was Light.
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
<<Prelude snipped>>
> But it should not, because that is not quite how a Damage Shield works. If
> a normal strike (punch) will not cause the Damage Shield to affect the
> target, then a Move By or Move Through should not, either. None of these
> are the "extended contact" required to make a Damage Shield work as
> attacks.
But I thought that if a person with an active damage shield is punched,
the attacker suffered the effects of the damage shield. It would seem
reasonable that the converse would be the same. A half phase punch compared to
a half phase laying on of hands for instance does not have a huge difference.
However, for game balance purposes, I can see where some GM's would
want to have the attack brought seperately. But the move through attack ends
at the point of contact OR in the hex in front of where the target lands OR to
the end of his movement, players choice (BBB p155). If the attacker
decides to move with his target, this could be argued that this represents
prolonged contact and hence the damage shield damage would be taken but
seperate from the move through damage. Note that move by doesn't have the same
options offered.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 00:26:13 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: How do you address this?
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> At 02:04 PM 11/4/97 -0600, John Stefanski wrote:
> >How do you address the Player Character who constantly wants to buy
> >equipment during a Champions game with money. These items are obviously
> >useful ones but should be purchased through experience points.
> >
> >Items such as:
> >IR Goggles (IR Vision),
> >SCUBA Gear (Swimming),
> >High-Powered Scopes (Telescopic Sight)
> >Bulletproof Vest (Armor),
> >you get the picture.
>
> Like the PC who's always picking up others' weapons and using them, this
> character should have a VPP. It doesn't have to be a huge one (these
> aren't really expensive items pointwise, nor cashwise), but just enough to
> cover the equipment he wants to be able to grab on a moment's notice.
> Note that this should be allowed occasionally without a fuss, but if
> it's being done frequently, then a price should have to be paid.
There's another way to look at it; Perhaps there already *is* a
version of "Purchase Power VPP* in the BBB itself! I think I saw in
either this or the Guns thread that a player thought he could get away
with it because he bought wealth. In THAT case, he SHOULD get away with
it. If a character with wealth wants to buy things with it, just define
the points paid for wealth AS a VPP for 'buying things'. You can either
crunch the numbers to figure out how big a pool would yield an
appropriate VPP+Control Cost to equal "Wealth Points", or simply allow a
character to figure out what (s)he wants, not to exceed Wealth Points in
REAL cost, then simply maintain greater control as GM as far as how well
they work and for how long.
But whether going the VPP route or 'Wealth as VPP' route, the items
will still be transitory in nature. I think the 'Wealth as VPP' concept
allows a player to feel that the points spent on wealth weren't just
wasted.
--
"All of science, all of the vastness of knowledge
of mankind boils down to two things. We look at
stuff and make stuff up. That's it. That's Everything."
-Capt. Spith
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 00:39:15 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Growth
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Rick Holding wrote:
>
> There has been a bit of a discussion with the TUSV thread about
> relative sizes. First a statement. A brick picks up a car and thumps
> somebody standing nearby and is (or in the past somewhen) considered to be
> making an area effect attack because of the size of the weapon. Now a
> question. How many levels of growth are required before the persons hand is
> considered an area effect attack?
Actually, I got a reference for that one. Waaaaayyy back in the
first edition of Golden Age of Champions (maybe elsewhere, but this is
where I saw it), it cited 20 levels of growth for an area affect Hand.
Alternately, measure your hand. Then measure all your friends' hands
to get a good sample. Find out how many doublings of that average hand
measurement to make it 2 meters. Three levels of growth per
doubling....
--
"All of science, all of the vastness of knowledge
of mankind boils down to two things. We look at
stuff and make stuff up. That's it. That's Everything."
-Capt. Spith
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 00:47:43 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Growth
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There has been a bit of a discussion with the TUSV thread about
relative sizes. First a statement. A brick picks up a car and thumps
somebody standing nearby and is (or in the past somewhen) considered to be
making an area effect attack because of the size of the weapon. Now a
question. How many levels of growth are required before the persons hand is
considered an area effect attack?
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
Comments: Authenticated sender is <surturz@mail.zip.com.au>
From: "David Streeter" <surturz@zip.com.au>
Organization: Synchrotech Software
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:22:49 +0000
Subject: Re: The Ressurection Man
Reply-to: surturz@zip.com.au
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On 4 Nov 97 at 13:38, Todd Hanson enunciated sonorously:
> ALONE AT MIDNIGHT says:
>
> >Greetings,
> > The Ressurection Man has one power:
> > He dies and he comes back.
>
>
> You will never get a decisive answer from the list on this. Every time
> this comes up (about every 6 months or so) it breaks down to the
> following options (I'm sure I'll be corrected for forgetting one)
>
> a) Buy regen and lots of body. Either straight out body, or body with
> invisible power effects, or body with a limitation 'only to keep me
> alive', but basically, buy lots of body.
>
> b) Have the GM assign some arbitrary amount to pay for 'cannot die'.
> Some people consider this to be another kind of life support. This cost
> may be 100 pts or it may be 0 pts - depends on how important it is to a
> GM to have an immortal PC.
>
> c) A triggered transform/summon/aid when you die (or go negative body).
> Basically, xd6 transform dead me to live me, or xd6 summon 'live' me, or
> xd6 aid to body.
A player in my campaign has a similar character - he's an
"intelligence on a chip", like Batman in "Paper Scissors Stone", or
Diehard from Image. He has multiple bodies, with different powers,
but only one active at a time.
He bought it as duplication, with "only one body at a time" as a
general limitation. With experience, he gets a new body every 8 XP or
so (or is that twice as many bodies? I forget).
This could be used for "Resurrection Man" (It's very much like "Dr
Who" too). The special effects of the duplication is that his body is
reborn in whatever fashion you wish. You also have the option of
having different powers. (Like Croyd Crenson from Wildcards).
It's great for this player, - he loves making new characters, and
now gets the opportunity to have new "Sonic Assault" or "Underwater
Action" version of himself etc. every few months.
It's pretty balanced, IMHO, since he starts with lower effective
points (duplication is EXPENSIVE) and it costs 8 XP or so to die.
SurturZ
--------------------------------------------------
David Streeter <surturz@zip.com.au>
"Information always has a physical manifestation"
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 05:13:06 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Growth
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At 12:47 AM 11/5/97 -0800, Rick Holding wrote:
>There has been a bit of a discussion with the TUSV thread about
>relative sizes. First a statement. A brick picks up a car and thumps
>somebody standing nearby and is (or in the past somewhen) considered to be
>making an area effect attack because of the size of the weapon. Now a
>question. How many levels of growth are required before the persons hand is
>considered an area effect attack?
In my manuscript, nine. (Any other numbers out there?)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
From: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net (Mike Lehmann)
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 05:20:06 -0800
Organization: Terminal BBS (403)327-9731
Subject: And now for guns!
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-=> Quoting jstefanski@iname.com to Mike Lehmann <=-
js> How do you address the Player Character who built his Champions
js> character as a hand to hand combatant but constantly picks up dropped
js> (or grabbed) guns from the enemy agents to get a ranged attack. These
js> weapons are also useful ones and should be purchased through
js> experience points.
js> Any help?
Just a suggestion:
If one of your villains is aware of this tendency he has to grab weapons and use them, he could always work up some sort of boobytrapped gun (such as a high-powered one shot taser or bomb). Alternatively, he could leave a big, impressive-looking (and Bulky) cannon lying around with limited effects (say, a 1 or 2d6 EB). Maybe the weapon has multiple settings, and the controls are labelled in Arabic (or Japanese, etc.)
You could also use weapons with either:
- handgrip scanners (which only allow a single user to use them,
defined as a "Personal" foci);
- remote controls (in the hands of the master villain);
- a power suit with a handgun that requires the suit to power it (ie
OIF-Power Suit for the END Reserve and OAF-Energy weapon);
- self-destruct feature (perhaps intentional, perhaps a design flaw)
after 20-30 shots... <BOOM!>
I don't think any of these are inexplicably advanced for the average
villainous agency.
mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net - - - - - Justice Krewe / Enigma Watch GM
- - - - - - http://www.dfw.net/~aronhead/justice_krewe.html - - - - - -
... DisneyLand: A people trap operated by a mouse.
~~~ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
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X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 18:27:29 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Dr. TekNo & Light vs. Sightsneak
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At 02:58 PM 11/5/97 -0500, you wrote:
>...so in your opinion, he wouldn't have to pay for the G-236 satelite?
>(refering to the Dr. TekNo pulse blast).
>...how would the entire Omega-CPU component fall into it? As an IAF?
>
I suppose I didn't think it through completely... Dr. TekNo is sitting in
his base? Using a Bulky/Base related Computer Focus? Then he'd have to buy
the Computer to be able to Radio(probably bought as Mind Link) to his
Satellite (Vehicle) which is the thing that would buy the huge Indirect
EB/RKA. And (again probably) the Clairvoyance.
If the "Omega-CPU" is a hand-held control unit or somesuch, it could even be
an OAF.
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 18:30:07 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: TUSV - Added feature
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At 11:45 PM 11/5/97 GMT, Opal wrote:
>
>To: herolist@october.com (herolist)
> h >
> h > I do already have a mention of flying carpets built as vehicles.
> h > That
> h > picture you describe, though, is definitely classic!
> h > What was really going through my mind, though, was those
> h > hoverboards (or
> h > whatever they were called) from Back to the Future, Part II.
> h > ---
>
>My personal feeling is that if you can pick it up and walk away,
>it's a focus, not a vehicle. :)
>
Many Bricks in campaign could pick up and walk away with a motorcycle pretty
easily. And many people write up Battlesuits as Vehicles (odd moving
Battlesuits, anyway). It really becomes a matter of SFX and mechanics
relations.
- Jerry
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 11:44:13 -0500 (EST)
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Dr. TekNo & Light vs. Sightsneak
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Dr. TekNo is a Hi-Tech who has the ability to call upon the floating
G-236 satelite through his Omega-CPU. Using the Omega-CPU, he can
see people from a bird's eye view and zap them with a large-radius
pulse blast.
...how would you represent this?
The psychotic villian Light is mass-murdering a bus load of nuns. Edgar
Edison, reporter by night, slips onto the scene as the uncanny
Sightsneak (who has Invisibility, sight group only). He's hoping his
power of invisibility will make him immune to Light's powers...
What's the call on this? Sightsneak's Sf/x: would theay protect
him from injury (what about partial injury?), or would Sightsneak's
player have to buy Desoild (only vs. light based attacks)? Would you let
Sightsneak buy this power 'on the field,' so to speak, if he had the CP?
-Jason Sullivan
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:08:14 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: The Ressurection Man
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> > 1d6 Transform: Dead Body to Living Body
> > Cumulative
> > Self Only
> > Extra Time: 1 min
> > Trigger: Death
>
> Nah, sorry. Tranform cannot be used on yourself. States it in the
> last paragraph of the power write up in the BBB before the end comment.
Good point. For that reason the above write-up really is workable
only on others -- a decent "raise the dead" power, and one that doesn't
try to work with a Summon kludge which for some reason allows a specific
being summoned. ( definate no-no).
If you want a character that just can't die, then I'd go with an
enhanced lifesupport. Say Does not Die for 10 points. The ability isn't
really worth all that much in a Superheroic campaign, but it does deserve
a magnifying glass symbol. Also, it comes with a relatively common way to
die. As always, it's not allowable if not in character conception.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:10:02 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Growth
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> There has been a bit of a discussion with the TUSV thread about
> relative sizes. First a statement. A brick picks up a car and thumps
> somebody standing nearby and is (or in the past somewhen) considered to be
> making an area effect attack because of the size of the weapon. Now a
> question. How many levels of growth are required before the persons hand is
> considered an area effect attack?
No matter how many you buy, you don't get no AE. This is a
balance issue. To get the AE, buy AE on the STR of the character (all of
it, including Growth Ads) and take a limitation like "only when grown (to
certain level)".
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:12:13 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Dr. TekNo & Light vs. Sightsneak
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>Dr. TekNo is a Hi-Tech who has the ability to call upon the floating
>G-236 satelite through his Omega-CPU. Using the Omega-CPU, he can
>see people from a bird's eye view and zap them with a large-radius
>pulse blast.
> ...how would you represent this?
A clairsentience from one 'set' point (G-236 sattelite), and a whopper
indirect attack. That, or a vehicle equipped with mind link, AI, telescopic
sight and a extra range, no range penalty weapon.
>The psychotic villian Light is mass-murdering a bus load of nuns. Edgar
>Edison, reporter by night, slips onto the scene as the uncanny
>Sightsneak (who has Invisibility, sight group only). He's hoping his
>power of invisibility will make him immune to Light's powers...
> What's the call on this? Sightsneak's Sf/x: would theay protect
>him from injury (what about partial injury?), or would Sightsneak's
>player have to buy Desoild (only vs. light based attacks)?
He'd have to buy the desolid. Assume that light powers actually powerful
enough to do damage can 'punch' through the invisibility.
>Would you let
>Sightsneak buy this power 'on the field,' so to speak, if he had the CP?
Sure would. Take an Elemental Control:
30 EC: Invisibility [30]
30 A.) Invisibility to Sight Group, No Fringe, 0 END (+1/2)
15 B.) Desolidification, 0 END (+1/2), Only vs. Light-Based Attacks (-1)
75 well spent points.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You know, I feel pretty good."
"Yeah, me too. I've got a real positive attitude."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. TekNo & Light vs. Sightsneak
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:28:17 -0500
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Jason asks:
>Dr. TekNo is a Hi-Tech who has the ability to call upon the
>floating G-236 satellite through his Omega-CPU. Using the
>Omega-CPU, he can see people from a bird's eye view and
>zap them with a large-radius pulse blast.
Dr. TekNo's spy-eye would require at a minimum:
Clairsentience versus normal sight, 0 END or Charges (depending on how
the satellite is set up);
...with possibly other senses added on as well.
Dr. TekNo's pulse blast would require at a minimum:
Xd6 Energy Blast, Indirect (always from the sky +1/2), Area Effect, and
either 0 END or Charges
...and probably Increased Maximum Range and No Range Penalty.
Limitations on the two powers might be a computer or system operation
skill roll for hookup. Maybe a focus to hook up with.
--
>The psychotic villain Light is mass-murdering a bus load of nuns.
>Edgar Edison, reporter by night, slips onto the scene as the
>uncanny Sightsneak (who has Invisibility, sight group only).
>He's hoping his power of invisibility will make him immune to
>Light's powers...
This is the same Light who does energy move throughs, right?
It would depend on the SFX of Sightsneak's invisibility. Does his body
coloration mimic with the background (then no), bend light around him
(then maybe -- a DCV bonus at least), does light pass through him (then
yes, but he should really buy desolid or ED or damage reduction versus
light attacks), etc.
>What's the call on this? Sightsneak's Sf/x: would they protect
>him from injury (what about partial injury?), or would Sightsneak's
>player have to buy Desolid (only vs. light based attacks)? Would
>you let Sightsneak buy this power 'on the field,' so to speak, if
>he had the CP?
I always encourage creative use of SFX for my players. Buying it on the
field would be fine with me. But unless the player were to buy a
light-based defense, the next time Sightsneak meets Light, he might be
surprised that Light has found a way to affect SS after all...
Dave Mattingly
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com>
Subject: Re: Growth
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:36:08 -0500
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For those interested in interesting tricks with the Growth power, check
out my article on Size and Density Powers at
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/1905/haym15.html
Included are discussions on:
o Growth and Shrinking Power Stunts
o Partial Size Change
o Density Decrease
o ...and much more.
Dave Mattingly
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 97 18:20:15 GMT
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Stephen McGinness)
Subject: Re: Dr. TekNo & Light vs. Sightsneak
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At 11:44 AM 5/11/97, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
>The psychotic villian Light is mass-murdering a bus load of nuns. Edgar
>Edison, reporter by night, slips onto the scene as the uncanny
>Sightsneak (who has Invisibility, sight group only). He's hoping his
>power of invisibility will make him immune to Light's powers...
> What's the call on this? Sightsneak's Sf/x: would theay protect
>him from injury (what about partial injury?), or would Sightsneak's
>player have to buy Desoild (only vs. light based attacks)? Would you let
>Sightsneak buy this power 'on the field,' so to speak, if he had the CP?
The invisibility is _not_ a defence. It would provide _no_ defence
capability at all in my view. I would be more lenient if it was a NND where
invisibility hadn't been named as a defence depending on special effects but
not for straight forward EB stuff.
I would however allow him to buy the desolid to light based attacks on the
fly. It fits the character and is perhaps a power that would have been
bought if considered during character construction.
> -Jason Sullivan
Stephen
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:55:18 -0500
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org>
Subject: And now for guns!
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> 1. Your average VIPER weapon relies on a simple technology. In the pistol
> grip and glove of every VIPER agent is a small microchip key. If someone
> grips the handle that does not have the chip within 3 ft. of the handle,
> Boom!... or Zap!... Whatever you deem to be the proper negative
> reinforcement. Anywhere from blowing his hand off to a localized electrical
> zap that will take him out of the fight for the duration (won't HE feel silly)
I'm waiting for VIPER to try this against the hero with large-radius Radio
Darkness. :-)
Geoff Speare
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 97 19:52:31
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
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On Mon, 03 Nov 1997 13:47:15 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 08:10 PM 11/3/97, qts wrote:
>>On Sun, 02 Nov 1997 06:27:09 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>
>>>>Also, I'd love to see a consistent way of handling limited fuel. I do fuel
>>>>capacity as a Physical Limitation, myself.
>>>
>>> As I think I've mentioned elsewhere (and you probably just hadn't seen
>>>it when you wrote this), I'm handling it as a variation of Dependence.
>>
>>Isn't it just an END reserve?
>
> Doing it that way is a lot harder than it would seem. Try making out a
>vehicle with 25" of Running which Costs END; even at 1/2 END, that's 2
>END/Phase at full combat speed. Multiply that by a standard SPD of 3, for
>6 END/turn, which is 30 END/minute, which is 1800 END/hour. For the car to
>go at full speed for 5 hours (and most can last somewhat longer than that)
>is 9000 END, which would cost 900 points.
Ouch! Point taken.
> And now here's the kicker: If there's a vehicle that doesn't need
>refueling in a campaign where this Fuel Dependence is used, then that
>vehicle takes Life Support vs needing fuel (the equivalent of Does Not Eat
>for regular characters).
I have to confess to not understanding this.
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 97 19:55:56
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
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On Mon, 03 Nov 1997 13:51:39 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 08:15 PM 11/3/97, qts wrote:
>>>>>>Please don't forget things like the Triceratops saddle, or the
>>>>>>Raptor-drawn chariot...
>>>>>>
>>>>>Wouldn't the first two be useless w/o write-ups of the Dinos? But I like
>>>>>the point you made... beast-propelled vehicles...
>>>>
>>>>Hehehe! You could also arguably make the Dinos SFX...
>>>>
>>>Good point. But this would work best in a Superheroic game.
>>
>>Which is the main market.
>
> But far from the *only* market. I may, in fact, end up supporting more
>sci-fi campaigns that superhero ones.
Good, especially as the fantasy end is what interests me.
>>> What about fantasy/whatever?
>>
>>Definitely not!
>
> Oh no? There are vehicles in Fantasy: flying carpets, animated golems
>(the fantasy equivalent of mechas), self-propelling chariots, and the like.
Fair point.
> For that matter, I can point to at least one example of a motorcycle
>gang showing up in a Western.
!
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 12:01:31 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Reply-To: rook@infinex.com
CC: hero-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Growth
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> >> > >Now a question. How many levels of growth are required before the
> >> > >persons hand is considered an area effect attack?
> >> > In my manuscript, nine. (Any other numbers out there?)
> >> I remember 18 levels from GAC (first edition), but it was considered
> >> The issue is whether one wants to grant extra abilities. Growth already
> >> adds streching, so area effects would not be out of line. The
> >> most important question is when does game balance suffer.
> >
> > I would say don't add it. In the genre (remember comic books?) the
> >really big guys usually find it harder to hit the small guys, not easier.
>
> Nonetheless, the giant's fist still covers a full hex at some point.
> Of course, even in the current manuscript TUSV (as a holdover from when
> it was going to be The Ultimate Giant Robot) having Area Effect on STR for
> free is an option.
That may be true, but it's important to remember what we're trying to
simulate here.
In both the Super and Anime genre's large target's have trouble hitting smaller
ones.
Which is why it's good you don't go father than stating it as an optional idea.
--
Rook
Also known as Arcady on #herochat, #Fuzionchat, #gurps, #V&V,
and #SuperHeroChat in DALnet IRC
Super Hero Links Page:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 97 20:07:05
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV (fwd)
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On Mon, 03 Nov 1997 14:00:29 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 08:22 PM 11/3/97, qts wrote:
>>>>One thing I find interesting, BTW, is the fact that such vehicles as an
>>>>Indy Car, or the F-15 have stats like a DEX of 23 or a SPD of 5. Now, a
>>>>normal human really isn't going to have characteristics close to these
>>>>numbers. Would it be considered abusive for areally experienced
>>>>driver/pilot to have bonuses to his DEX and/or SPD with a limitation of
>>>>"Only while Driving/Flying"?
>>>
>>> I wouldn't think so, at least for DEX. Nor would Lightning Reflexes be
>>>too bad with such a Limitation.
>>> However, I'm up in the air as to whether a character should be charged
>>>double for going over Characteristic Maxima.
>>
>>Why charge the character directly? Just make the DEX and SPD Usable by
>>Others at the appropriate level.
>
> That's not the same thing. DEX and SPD Usable By Others (with other
>appropriate modifiers) is in the book, but it's not the same thing as being
>skilled enough to have extra DEX and SPD *yourself* when operating a
>vehicle.
True, but these vehicles tend to have control mechanisms which make
control much easier (from a simple joystick or steering wheel to
fly-by-wire), and so this counts as a valid UBO mechanism. And in case
you think a steering wheel or joystick isn't valid, just look at how
much more enjoyable and easier a racing sim is with a steering wheel
compared with the keyboard, or a flight sim with a joystick vs a
keyboard.
>From the films, recall For Your Eyes Only where one of the villains had
a submarine which he controlled via a keyboard: you could see him
furiously bashing away at the keyboard while Bond ran rings around him.
A vehicle with an AI might even have Combat Piloting Usable By Others.
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 97 20:15:22
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV: Beast-drawn Vehicles
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On Mon, 03 Nov 1997 18:46:50 +0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>And, right now, if my Brick wants to *pull* that car over here, he has to
>lift it completely anyway? He doesn't get bonuses/penalties for pulling it
>front/back/sideways?
>That's what I meant. If this is beyond the scope of the book, let me know.
>But I still find it interesting.
>And I still don't know how to fight from horseback (IRL or the game)...
I missed that aspect: I'd suggest END and STR modifiers based on the
resistance to movement.
Example: MegaMan wants to move a 10 tonne cube. He can pay full END and
use full STR and push it normally. Or, he can lift it onto a trolley
(Full Str) and flick it with his pinky (x 1/4 STR). Alternatively, he
can get his teammate, Lions Maid to turn the ground into ice and slide
it along (x1/4 Str).
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 97 20:17:00
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV: Beast-drawn vehicles
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On Mon, 03 Nov 1997 17:55:18 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 06:37 PM 11/3/97 +0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>>At 08:15 PM 11/3/97, qts wrote:
>>>On Sun, 02 Nov 1997 21:44:26 +0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>>>>qts wrote:
>><suggestions for dinosaur powered vehicles>
>>>>>Hehehe! You could also arguably make the Dinos SFX...
>>>>>
>>>>Good point. But this would work best in a Superheroic game.
>>>
>>>Which is the main market.
>>>
>>Yes, but Bob wants to make this compatible with the other stuff Hero put
>>out... (I think) What about Western Hero and unhitching your horse (like I
>>mention later). Really, unless you have a specific mechanic for
>>horses/raptors/people pulling vehicles, you *have* to use them as SFX. And
>>then the various thing(s) pulling it won't be able to act on their own, get
>>loose, do *anything* besides pull the damn thing, or even get hit (beyond
>>standard vehicular damage).
>
> You are correct in that I want to make it as compatible as possible with
>as much of the rest of the Hero System, at least in terms of rules.
> What I'm thinking of doing for beast-drawn vehicles is simply having a
>Vehicle built without any Movement Powers of its own. Then you hitch the
>beast to it, or put the thing on its back (if the beast is big enough), and
>use the beast's STR, Movement, and other characteristics where such are
>needed.
> Beast-drawn flying vehicles may have Gliding.
Now that's a really neat idea! The vehicle would have a STR min,
similar to weapons.
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 12:19:02 -0800
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Growth
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> At 12:47 AM 11/5/97 -0800, Rick Holding wrote:
> >There has been a bit of a discussion with the TUSV thread about
> >relative sizes. First a statement. A brick picks up a car and
> >thumps somebody standing nearby and is (or in the past somewhen)
> >considered to be
> >making an area effect attack because of the size of the weapon.
> >Now a question. How many levels of growth are required before the
> >persons hand is considered an area effect attack?
>
> In my manuscript, nine. (Any other numbers out there?)
I remember 18 levels from GAC (first edition), but it was considered
to cover only one hex. 18 levels of growth is about equivelent
to a 6'8" person on a 1" per hex mat. My fist covers more than one
or two hexes. Feet cover a lot more.
The issue is whether one wants to grant extra abilities. Growth already
adds streching, so area effects would not be out of line. The
most important question is when does game balance suffer.
-Mark
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 15:38:55 -0500 (EST)
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: The Reaver
X-VMS-To: IN%"champ-l@omg.org"
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Greetings,
Dr. Maxwell Shreckstein was a scientific genius who always
longed to be more... Recognition and the admiration of his students
wasn't good enough. He wanted the world to remeber his name.
Dr. Shreckstein has always been facinated with super-
powered beings. He was both awstruck and envious of their paranatural
abilities. Determined to have his legacy live on, he turned to
the government for funding. The doctor had been making excellent progress,
but his funding was cut when his experiments were revealed to be of
a less-than humane nature. The doctor was humilated, and in an act of
vengence copied the government's archives on previous attempts at
cultivating parahumans.
Rennouced by his peers, he turned to shady undrworld organizations
for funding, promising them living weapons-- supersoldiers. Failure
after failure after failure followed. The various organizations
weren't pleased when they heard the final body count toll...
...and were less pleased to hear of rival organizations placing their
bids on the table.
Dr. Shreckstein's mind had been strechted to the limit,
by stress, perhaps, or as a side effect of the experiments...
The first assassin to arrive at the lab was a superhuman
known as Leaping-Devil, who mysteriously disappeared. The next
to attempt to the destroy the doctor was sent, a hot-shot known as
the Beamer, whose corpse was found after a month when UNTIL raided the
near-barren lab.
Beamer's body, along with other body parts were found in vats
filled with an unusual fluid that retared their decay. Analysis
later determined that an arm was the doctor's own!
All was silent, and the doctor was forgotten...
The grave of the heroic Powerguy had been decerated only days
before Reaver arrived on the scene. The black hooded villian
challenged any superhero to fight him to the death, if they dared.
During a colossal battle between Reaver and Powerguy's old allies,
the Reaver was unmasked...
...and the face of Dr. Shreckstein was seen yet again! But his
physique was not his own, but rather, a composite of his fallen opponent's!
Dr. Shreckstein cackled as his blue left eye shot out a crackling bolt
of electricity, which stunned the heroes. He escaped.
...the heroes now hunt Reaver, for they know something foul is
amiss. They can only guess, but they all swear Reaver's blue left eye
not only looked like, but also exhibited, Powerguy's mighty eye blast...
So. How would you represent a villian who steals the body
parts away from deceased heroes? First, what power could be used
to represent a medical 'detachment' of a body part from a living
hero. Second, how would you represent the 'preservation' of the
doc's weird vat science. Third, how would you deal with the
varying powers of limbs who have different statistics.
Any additional comments are welcome...
...and yes, I have gone off that metaphorical meglomanical
'deep end' with this post.
-Jason Sullivan
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 97 20:42:55
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Dr. TekNo & Light vs. Sightsneak
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Wed, 05 Nov 1997 11:44:13 -0500 (EST), ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
>Dr. TekNo is a Hi-Tech who has the ability to call upon the floating
>G-236 satelite through his Omega-CPU. Using the Omega-CPU, he can
>see people from a bird's eye view and zap them with a large-radius
>pulse blast.
> ...how would you represent this?
>
>The psychotic villian Light is mass-murdering a bus load of nuns. Edgar
>Edison, reporter by night, slips onto the scene as the uncanny
>Sightsneak (who has Invisibility, sight group only). He's hoping his
>power of invisibility will make him immune to Light's powers...
> What's the call on this? Sightsneak's Sf/x: would theay protect
>him from injury (what about partial injury?), or would Sightsneak's
>player have to buy Desoild (only vs. light based attacks)? Would you let
>Sightsneak buy this power 'on the field,' so to speak, if he had the CP?
Just because he can bend (or whatever) normal-intensity light doesn't
mean that his ability won't get overloaded by the concentrated power of
the attack.
Certainly, I'd allow purchasing the Desolid on the spot - he is, after
all, being heroic. And I'd justify it as a side-effect of the attack:
'Light reels from your punch. "Feel Photon Power, you do-gooder!" As
the rays hit you, you feel the power overloading your invisibility
field, then in a shower of light, it passes straight through you.'
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Legionair@aol.com\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 97 20:54:44
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy?
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:09:59 -0500 (EST), Legionair@aol.com wrote:
>Universal Translator will allow the PC to communicate with anyone,
This is completely wrong: it allows anyone to communicate with the PC -
vastly different.
> but it
>doesn't allow the PC to acquire information not readily given. Telepathy, on
>the other hand, is made to do just that.
Just give it Limitations: Max 1x (-1), Communication Only (-1/2).
Subject: Re: Growth
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 97 16:16:07 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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On 11/5/97 3:19 PM, Mark Lemming (icepirat@ix.netcom.com) Said:
>The issue is whether one wants to grant extra abilities. Growth already
>adds streching, so area effects would not be out of line. The
>most important question is when does game balance suffer.
We have always given an extra 2" of running per level of growth, as well
as giving an AOE (1 hex) at 6 levels, doubling every 6 levels
| David A. Fair
Think Different | SDS International
| dfair@sdslink.com
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 13:39:03 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. TekNo & Light vs. Sightsneak
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 11:44 AM 11/5/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
>Dr. TekNo is a Hi-Tech who has the ability to call upon the floating
>G-236 satelite through his Omega-CPU. Using the Omega-CPU, he can
>see people from a bird's eye view and zap them with a large-radius
>pulse blast.
> ...how would you represent this?
Scads of Telescopic Vision, and No Range Penalty (and probably a bunch
of Increased Maximum Range) on his attacks.
>The psychotic villian Light is mass-murdering a bus load of nuns. Edgar
>Edison, reporter by night, slips onto the scene as the uncanny
>Sightsneak (who has Invisibility, sight group only). He's hoping his
>power of invisibility will make him immune to Light's powers...
> What's the call on this? Sightsneak's Sf/x: would theay protect
>him from injury (what about partial injury?), or would Sightsneak's
>player have to buy Desoild (only vs. light based attacks)? Would you let
>Sightsneak buy this power 'on the field,' so to speak, if he had the CP?
Generally, I'd say that Light's powers do affect Sightsneak. Being
invisible is completely different from being immune to light-based powers;
for one thing, by the time light can cause damage, it's a pretty intense
beam. If Sightsneak wanted to be immune to the attacks, I'd make him buy
Desolid (Only vs light-based attacks), and probably Link it to Invisibility.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Growth
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:40:10 -0800 (PST)
Cc: hero-l@omg.org
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> Bob Greenwade wrote:
> > At 12:47 AM 11/5/97 -0800, Rick Holding wrote:
> > >There has been a bit of a discussion with the TUSV thread about
> > >relative sizes. First a statement. A brick picks up a car and
> > >thumps somebody standing nearby and is (or in the past somewhen)
> > >considered to be
> > >making an area effect attack because of the size of the weapon.
> > >Now a question. How many levels of growth are required before the
> > >persons hand is considered an area effect attack?
> >
> > In my manuscript, nine. (Any other numbers out there?)
>
> I remember 18 levels from GAC (first edition), but it was considered
>
> The issue is whether one wants to grant extra abilities. Growth already
> adds streching, so area effects would not be out of line. The
> most important question is when does game balance suffer.
I would say don't add it. In the genre (remember comic books?) the
really big guys usually find it harder to hit the small guys, not easier.
Rook --- Incoherent Thinking Specialist
Also known as Arcady on #herochat, #Fuzionchat, #gurps, #V&V,
and #SuperHeroChat in DALnet IRC
Super Hero Links Page:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com>
Subject: Re: The Reaver
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:42:22 -0500
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>How would you represent a villain who steals the body parts
>away from deceased heroes? First, what power could be used
>to represent a medical 'detachment' of a body part from a
>living hero.
Transfer (with a recovery per century) versus all powers of a special
effect: body part related, Side effect = modular, must lose current
ability in that body part. Probably add extra time, gestures,
focus/equipment, 0 DCV, etc.
This would allow the Reaver to transfer an eye-blast from a hero by
removing the eye and replacing his own (thus losing any abilities from
the prior eye).
>Second, how would you represent the 'preservation' of the
>doc's weird vat science.
Time Delay on the Transfer.
>Third, how would you deal with the varying powers of limbs
>who have different statistics.
Hit locations. If his back is from a ninja turtle, it will be better
protected than the rest of him. Hit location is the only way I can see
to deal with diverse body parts.
>Any additional comments are welcome...
Just such a character, Piecemeal, showed up in a few Hulk issues. And
for any who'd like to see how size powers can be used partially, check
out http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/1905/haym15d.html
Dave Mattingly
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 13:46:13 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 07:52 PM 11/5/97, qts wrote:
>> And now here's the kicker: If there's a vehicle that doesn't need
>>refueling in a campaign where this Fuel Dependence is used, then that
>>vehicle takes Life Support vs needing fuel (the equivalent of Does Not Eat
>>for regular characters).
>
>I have to confess to not understanding this.
I'm not sure which part you're not understanding.
I have to assume, though, that you understand my reference to a Fuel
Dependence (a variation on Dependence that simply disables the craft rahter
than damaging it), because you responded to it before without a question.
Fuel is like a vehicle's food, so my thought is that a vehicle normally
needs fuel to continue running. The ability to not need fuel would be the
equivalent of the ability to not need food in an organic being, which is
represented in the Hero System with Life Support vs needing to eat (part of
the element to eat, sleep, or excrete). A vehicle that does not need fuel
in a campaign that uses a 0-value Fuel Dependence as the default therefore
needs this form of Life Support.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 05 Nov 97 21:55:20 GMT
Subject: Incomplete Rules
X-Ftn-To: jimalj@best.com
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Path: october!opal
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Hi,
I don't know if you've been wathching the Hero List lately, but
Bob Greenwade is writing the Ultimate Super Vehicles book... and
he may want to use the Incomplete Rules or elements there of.
Try getting a copy to him. (I can't send attachements, but I did
give him the URL).
If he goes for it, we could offer to provide sample vehicles and
such. I certainly have the time right now.
n
Bob's email is: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Bye!
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 05 Nov 97 22:11:02 GMT
Subject: Re: Comic book martial a
X-Ftn-To: herolist@october.com
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Path: october!opal
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
h >
h > On other points discussed, I think that requiring a reduced
h > penetration
h > on a martial artist defined as 'normal' is fine, but the limitation is
h > applied to the 'power', rather than free, so you get the few points
h > back. It is a perfect idea for those that do the HA martial arts
h > rather
h > than the standard style as well.
Maybe have 5pt 'Super DCs' that do full damage and add full DC's
to all types of attacks covered by martial arts (instead of being
halved with KA wpns), and 4pt 'Normal DCs' that are reduced pen,
are halved w/ KA wpns, etc...
Or, you could have DCs be considered the realm of 'superhuman'
martial artists... everyone else just gets manuevers, so a
'realistic' martial artist with human level stats is never
going to do more than 8 dice without pushing.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
X-Originating-IP: [206.88.2.1]
From: "Todd Hanson" <badtodd@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: The Reaver
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 16:11:20 CST
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
How this is done would depend on wether or not the good doctor retains
these powers permanently, or if he can 'upgrade' them as he finds parts
that he likes better.
If he has them permanently, then he just buys them outright. The rest
is special effect - giving you a rationale to give him whatever powers
you feel like.
If he is able to change or upgrade them, then it is simply a VPP with
the 'only in the lab' limitation, and maybe some kind of limitation that
he must aquire the appropriate 'parts' first.
Interesting villian idea though... I have to run a one-shot for some
visiting friends, I may have to steal parts of this... ;)
Todd
-------------------------------------------------------
Please note that I only SEND from this address - I do
not receive email at this address. Please reply to me
at badtodd@dacmail.net :) thanks!
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______________________________________________________
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Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:16:21 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: The Luckiest man on the planet....
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Ok, since it seems all powers are being discussed here lately, let me bounce
a character concept off everyeon ehere and see what ideas you might come up
with.
The character in question is lucky, we aren't talking just a little lucky we
are talking about the type of luck that drives people crazy. Ok, obviously
I give him the luck ability. That is a start. Now I was thinking along the
lines of this.
He has normal character stats, he isn't a superhero, just a really lucky
guy. On top of this I was thinking of adding
50% - 50% Resistant Damage Reduction Activate 14- (Ooh....lucky for me, that
shot was just a flesh wound.)
Some basic Martial Arts (Yeah, I know how to fight in a bar) with Damage
Classes on an Activate 14- (Wow, that was a lucky shot.)
Ok, I justify the activation rolls because it is luck afterall, not skill
and not power. Luck holds out, but it isn't always there.
So what do you think? What other powers might simulate luck? I was
thinking resistant defenses, but no, (Oh, lucky I was bullet proof for a
second???!!!) No, I don't think so.
Any help would be appreciated and hopefully I haven't caused more chaos here
:) Take it easy and talk at you later.
Sparx
====================================================
I'll fire aimlessly if you don't come out!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:17:48 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Dr. TekNo & Light vs. Sightsneak
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
> Dr. TekNo is a Hi-Tech who has the ability to call upon the floating
> G-236 satelite through his Omega-CPU. Using the Omega-CPU, he can
> see people from a bird's eye view and zap them with a large-radius
> pulse blast.
> ...how would you represent this?
In my Silent Mobius game, there are two characters with the ability to
link to orbital satalites. They both have the exact same powers as you
describe. The power basically looks like this:
Geosynchronous Orbital Computer Powers:
96 Orbital Laser: RKA 6d6 E, One Hex Area, Extended (2"r) (+3/4),
No RMod, Indirect (down) (+1/2), 0 END, Extended Range: ~28800",
1 Turn between shots (-1), 1/2 DCV Concentrate (-1/4), Requires
System Ops Roll 15- (-1/4), Requires Appropriate Computer Interface (-1)
22 Orbital Cameras:Clairsentience: sight, Range: ~25600", 0 END,
1 Turn to access (-1),1/2 DCV concentrate (-1/4), Requires
System Ops Roll 15- (-1/4), Requires Appropriate Computer
Interface (-1), Limited viewing: can be obscured by bad
weather/clouds (-1/2)
Note: the laser is an extreme example of this power. Note that the
Extended range is for how far away something can be and still be in
range of the character's ability to call down a laser strike.
Most of the limitations for this power can be varied to suit your taste.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 05 Nov 97 22:28:04 GMT
Subject: Help with TUSV
X-Ftn-To: herolist@october.com
X-Listname: Hero
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Path: october!opal
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
h > From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
h >
h > I've gotten approval to write The Ultimate Super Vehicle, a book
h > designed to cover everything from the Batmobile to the Zords (and a
h > things beyond, like the Argo or the Enterprise -- maybe even the
h > Titanic).
I think the Vehicle (and Automaton & Spirit etc) Rules have been one
of the big weaknesses in Hero. Ever since they first did Vehicles
in Champions II, the system has never really 'fit' with the rest
of Hero.
There's a set of rules with a good potential as replacements for
the Vehicle rules (and Automatons, Spirits, Computers, etc) it's
called the 'Incomplete' Rules you can peruse them at:
http://www.best.com/~jimalj/incomp.html
and email the authors at:
jimalj@best.com
anthony.vargas@usa.net
These rules, or at least the specific case that deals with vehicles
could be useful.
Enjoy.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 08:28:05 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
Subject: Re: How do you address this?
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 02:04 PM 11/4/97 -0600, you wrote:
>How do you address the Player Character who constantly wants to buy
>equipment during a Champions game with money. These items are obviously
>useful ones but should be purchased through experience points.
>
>Items such as:
>IR Goggles (IR Vision),
>SCUBA Gear (Swimming),
>High-Powered Scopes (Telescopic Sight)
>Bulletproof Vest (Armor),
>you get the picture.
>
>Any help?
>
pay a debt in unluck
>==============================
>John Stefanski
>
>"There can BE only one"
>
>Send all replies to jstefanski@iname.com
>==============================
>
>
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 08:34:12 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
Subject: Re: And now for guns!
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 02:07 PM 11/4/97 -0600, you wrote:
>How do you address the Player Character who built his Champions character
>as a hand to hand combatant but constantly picks up dropped (or grabbed)
>guns from the enemy agents to get a ranged attack. These weapons are also
>useful ones and should be purchased through experience points.
>
>Any help?
>
>
vpp- scavenged equipment"
>==============================
>John Stefanski
>
>"There can BE only one"
>
>Send all replies to jstefanski@iname.com
>==============================
>
>
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 05 Nov 97 22:40:06 GMT
X-To: herolist@october.com (herolist) h > Dave Mattingly wrote: h > >Oh, yeah. I forgot to add that I'd like to see interdimensional h > >vehicles, too (Is the Tardis a vehicle, or a base with powers?). h > > h > Um... it's a vehicle *and* a base! (It's a car wax *and* a dessert h > Honestly, it's difficult to write up... I was thinking of a vehicle h > had the power to send it's occupants to its "pocket dimension" by h > an XDM Gate (the interior of the Tardis) and 2) had the ability to h > itself (
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
X-Ftn-To: herolist@october.com
X-Listname: Hero
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Path: october!opal
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
To: herolist@october.com (herolist)
h > Dave Mattingly wrote:
h > >Oh, yeah. I forgot to add that I'd like to see interdimensional
h > >vehicles, too (Is the Tardis a vehicle, or a base with powers?).
h > >
h > Um... it's a vehicle *and* a base! (It's a car wax *and* a dessert
h > Honestly, it's difficult to write up... I was thinking of a vehicle
h > had the power to send it's occupants to its "pocket dimension" by
h > an XDM Gate (the interior of the Tardis) and 2) had the ability to
h > itself (and therefore the Gate) to another location. I'm not sure
It's blindingly simple under the Incomplete Rules... just buy the
TARDIS with Internal Spaces that don't carry mass or volume -
(Internal Spaces are a new 'power' for use with the Incomplete
Rules, they allow you to build things like the TARDIS, or to
construct really BIG vehicles like the Death Star, in a way that's
a bit more balanced than the standard rules).
-Opal
Incomplete Rules:
http://www.best.com/~jimalj/incomp.html
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 14:49:28 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Comic book martial a
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 10:11 PM 11/5/97 GMT, Opal wrote:
> h > On other points discussed, I think that requiring a reduced
> h > penetration
> h > on a martial artist defined as 'normal' is fine, but the limitation is
> h > applied to the 'power', rather than free, so you get the few points
> h > back. It is a perfect idea for those that do the HA martial arts
> h > rather
> h > than the standard style as well.
>
>Maybe have 5pt 'Super DCs' that do full damage and add full DC's
>to all types of attacks covered by martial arts (instead of being
>halved with KA wpns), and 4pt 'Normal DCs' that are reduced pen,
>are halved w/ KA wpns, etc...
>
>Or, you could have DCs be considered the realm of 'superhuman'
>martial artists... everyone else just gets manuevers, so a
>'realistic' martial artist with human level stats is never
>going to do more than 8 dice without pushing.
That's kinda how I work it, myself. I generally only allow extra DCs
for superhumans, masters of arts that use ki (or some similar concept), and
certain select others (the latter group basically meaning "GM's
discretion").
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 08:50:39 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
Subject: Re: The Reaver
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 03:38 PM 11/5/97 -0500, you wrote:
> So. How would you represent a villian who steals the body
>parts away from deceased heroes? First, what power could be used
>to represent a medical 'detachment' of a body part from a living
>hero. Second, how would you represent the 'preservation' of the
>doc's weird vat science. Third, how would you deal with the
>varying powers of limbs who have different statistics.
> Any additional comments are welcome...
> ...and yes, I have gone off that metaphorical meglomanical
>'deep end' with this post.
> -Jason Sullivan
>
erm. . .vpp? in lab. . takes days. . .... oh, and take up
the 'slack' with points of body and end, to represent just
getting a buff phisique if nothing else is avaliable fer that
. . erm. . chunck. . *lol*
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 08:52:58 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
Subject: Re: Comic book martial artists....
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 09:38 PM 11/4/97 +0000, you wrote:
>>But that's _one_ scenario that assumes said Brick is arranged exactly like
>a
>>normal human being. And I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that many
>aren't.
>
>I take the point, but I refer again to a typical (in comics anyway) martial
>arts skill - Style analysis. A MA could see that an alien bruiser keeps his
>arms closed to his body even when swinging.... hmmmm..... could he have a
>nerve plexus (not a real medical term... but it sounds good) in his armpit?
>Boom- a quick kick to the arm pit. I refuse to believe that the MA could not
>spot a pair of eyes, or a join (shoulder, knee, elbow etc) on anything but
>the most bizarre looking species.
>
and besides, that falls into the normal rules fer find weakness. .
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 05 Nov 97 22:56:00 GMT
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV: Remo
X-Ftn-To: herolist@october.com
X-Listname: Hero
Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero)
Path: october!opal
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
h > At 11:02 AM 10/31/97 -0800, Duane Morris wrote:
h > >> As for Rigging, you're talking about simply acting out the
h > motions of a
h > >> giant robot to control the vehicle, right? How would that be
h > modeled in
h > >> Hero terms -- any ideas?
Well, a vehicle might normally have limitations based on the
type of controls used. A Rigger would have no such limitation.
The only other thing I can think of would be to have the Vehicle
Automatically match the DEX and SPD of the user... since it
reacts as if it's him.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 14:58:06 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 10:28 PM 11/5/97 GMT, Opal wrote:
>I think the Vehicle (and Automaton & Spirit etc) Rules have been one
>of the big weaknesses in Hero. Ever since they first did Vehicles
>in Champions II, the system has never really 'fit' with the rest
>of Hero.
Hopefully I'll be able to at least partially fix that with this book. I
have a lot of ideas that help Vehicles blend better with regular
characters. (At least, I hope they succeed in doing that; it's the intent,
anyway.)
>There's a set of rules with a good potential as replacements for
>the Vehicle rules (and Automatons, Spirits, Computers, etc) it's
>called the 'Incomplete' Rules you can peruse them at:
>
>http://www.best.com/~jimalj/incomp.html
>
>and email the authors at:
>
>jimalj@best.com
>anthony.vargas@usa.net
Actually, early in the discussion someone mentioned the Incomplete
Rules, and I asked someone to either email them to me or direct me to where
I can find them. You just did the latter, and I thank ya.
>These rules, or at least the specific case that deals with vehicles
>could be useful.
Most likely I'll be simply adapting what I find adaptable into the
mainstream Hero vehicle rules -- anything that isn't extremely disruptive
to how things work, and maybe a few things that are. :-]
>Enjoy.
I hope to!
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 14:58:28 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 08:07 PM 11/5/97, qts wrote:
>>>Why charge the character directly? Just make the DEX and SPD Usable by
>>>Others at the appropriate level.
>>
>> That's not the same thing. DEX and SPD Usable By Others (with other
>>appropriate modifiers) is in the book, but it's not the same thing as being
>>skilled enough to have extra DEX and SPD *yourself* when operating a
>>vehicle.
>
>True, but these vehicles tend to have control mechanisms which make
>control much easier (from a simple joystick or steering wheel to
>fly-by-wire), and so this counts as a valid UBO mechanism. And in case
>you think a steering wheel or joystick isn't valid, just look at how
>much more enjoyable and easier a racing sim is with a steering wheel
>compared with the keyboard, or a flight sim with a joystick vs a
>keyboard.
>
>From the films, recall For Your Eyes Only where one of the villains had
>a submarine which he controlled via a keyboard: you could see him
>furiously bashing away at the keyboard while Bond ran rings around him.
But then it's using the computer's DEX and SPD, not the operator's.
>A vehicle with an AI might even have Combat Piloting Usable By Others.
Ditto.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 05 Nov 97 23:01:02 GMT
X-To: herolist@october.com (herolist) h > h > I still have to work out vehicular Remote Control. It's a question h > that's been stumping me for quite some time. h > ---
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV (long
X-Ftn-To: herolist@october.com
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Path: october!opal
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
To: herolist@october.com (herolist)
h >
h > I still have to work out vehicular Remote Control. It's a question
h > that's been stumping me for quite some time.
h > ---
In the Incomplete Rules, one of the defining characteristics of a
Vehicle is that it has no INT. Incompletes with no INT need a
defined way of being controlled - otherwise they never initiate
any action - usually a vehicle is defined as controlled from the
cockpit/driver's seat controls, there's nothing to stop it from
being defined as controlled by a radio signal or Mind Link...
though the latter *might* require a vehicle with EGO depending
on how stricktly you interpret Mind Link. If an unbreakably-
encrypted signal is an OK F/X for mind link, than a Vehicle
could be controled that way, if Mind Links have to be Mental
in nature, than you'd need a 'psychically active' (EGO stat)
vehicle... it's control signals couldn't be intercepted, but
it would be subject to Mental Powers.
___
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 05 Nov 97 23:03:04 GMT
X-To: herolist@october.com (herolist) h > h > At 01:28 PM 10/30/97 -0800, you wrote: h > h > > 1) Does anyone have any specific suggestions for improving the h > dogfight h > >rules? h > h > h > well, if you interested i could send u a copy of my 3dcombat rules, h > which h > basically track the vehicles as a 'virtual cube' (six sides) in h > relation to h > each other. . . h > and map out powers within the structure in blocks of hexes. . h > but nobody seems to like it. . .*sulk* h > ---
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
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h >
h > At 01:28 PM 10/30/97 -0800, you wrote:
h >
h > > 1) Does anyone have any specific suggestions for improving the
h > dogfight
h > >rules?
h >
h >
h > well, if you interested i could send u a copy of my 3dcombat rules,
h > which
h > basically track the vehicles as a 'virtual cube' (six sides) in
h > relation to
h > each other. . .
h > and map out powers within the structure in blocks of hexes. .
h > but nobody seems to like it. . .*sulk*
h > ---
You know, I still haven't seen these....
Have you put them on a Web site yet?
Or maybe you could just email me txt (I can't recieve attached files
from RO) in the body of the message.
Thanx
___
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 05 Nov 97 23:10:06 GMT
X-To: herolist@october.com (herolist) h > h > At 07:25 AM 10/31/97 -0800, you wrote: h > > I have Combine in there, as a variant on Multiform (as borrowed h > from the h > >old Robot Warriors game based on 3rd Edition Hero). Its strongest h > >precedent is from Transformers and Power Rangers. h > > "Battle of the Planets"? Is this a movie I missed in my research?
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
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h >
h > At 07:25 AM 10/31/97 -0800, you wrote:
h > > I have Combine in there, as a variant on Multiform (as borrowed
h > from the
h > >old Robot Warriors game based on 3rd Edition Hero). Its strongest
h > >precedent is from Transformers and Power Rangers.
h > > "Battle of the Planets"? Is this a movie I missed in my research?
h >
h > *grumble* i just wanted to mention this again- what's wrong with
h > having a 'combine' power for PEOPLE characters? if this is
h > precedent-setting, i think the 'treat a vehicle like any character'
h > idea is a good thing to watch. . .
h > ---
The problem with Compine is that different PC's would become a single
character. If you used Duplication to model this, the higher point
form pays... and that will be the combined form, essentially giving
the group the Combine power for free.
If you invert the cost structure so the individual characters pay,
then you have a potential for abuse, as there is no logical way
to limit the power of the combined form.
With Vehicles, however, you can evade this problem:
A group of characters would all contribute points to a single, very
potent vehicle. That vehicle would then buy Duplication to split
itself in to each of the PC's individual Vehicles.
Simple.
'treat a vehicle like any other character' is a good idea. It's *the*
way to take advantage of the Hero System character building rules,
which are already so well developed. Instead of having sepparate
rules for vehicles, others for AIs, Robots, Spirits, Bases, etc...
you can use the core rules for all of them. All you need is
a little facillitator to bring them all together... that's what the
Incomplete Rules are!
Incomplete Rules:
http://www.best.com/~jimalj/incomp.html
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 09:10:43 +1000
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Subject: Re: The Luckiest man on the planet....
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 04:16 PM 11/5/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Ok, I justify the activation rolls because it is luck afterall, not skill
>and not power. Luck holds out, but it isn't always there.
>
>So what do you think? What other powers might simulate luck? I was
>thinking resistant defenses, but no, (Oh, lucky I was bullet proof for a
>second???!!!) No, I don't think so.
>
how about: 'ohh, lucky i was holding that steel thermos/ciggarillo case/piece of the true cross', ect. .. on a HIGH activation roll *after all he is lucky*. . ?
>Any help would be appreciated and hopefully I haven't caused more chaos here
>:) Take it easy and talk at you later.
>
>
and alos try a vpp of course. . . . i had a player want to use a
'dumb blonde' character. . .with a huge luck vpp plus summoning to
represent helpful kindly stranges turning up constantly. . .
>Sparx
>
>====================================================
> I'll fire aimlessly if you don't come out!
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 05 Nov 97 23:26:08 GMT
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
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h > From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
h >
h > I'm going to give Focus an extra look over. There may be some
h > reason
h > for the extra bonus (other than the fact that regular characters can't
h > use
h > it). Something that comes to mind is that the Focus is subject to
h > both the
h > standard vehicle damage rules and the Focus damage rules.
I think the usual rationale is that the Focus is less available,
because it's mounted on the vehicle... you can't take it into
buildings and so forth.
That begs the question: Can you buy 'Universal' foci on a vehicle...
(I'll just pull the Heavy Machine Gun of the Hummer and off we go...)
___
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From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 09:30:47 +1000
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Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
X-Listname: Hero
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At 11:26 PM 11/5/97 +0000, you wrote:
>
>
> h > From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
> h >
> h > I'm going to give Focus an extra look over. There may be some
> h > reason
> h > for the extra bonus (other than the fact that regular characters can't
> h > use
> h > it). Something that comes to mind is that the Focus is subject to
> h > both the
> h > standard vehicle damage rules and the Focus damage rules.
>
>I think the usual rationale is that the Focus is less available,
>because it's mounted on the vehicle... you can't take it into
>
>buildings and so forth.
>
>That begs the question: Can you buy 'Universal' foci on a vehicle...
>(I'll just pull the Heavy Machine Gun of the Hummer and off we go...)
>
yup- vehicle foci aren't attached. . . . they just aren't as mobile. .
so if you crash the hummer you can use the foci, but you can't just
take it everywhere unless the vehicle is at the scens. .
>___
> * OFFLINE 1.58
>
>
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 05 Nov 97 23:31:10 GMT
X-To: herolist@october.com (herolist) h > From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> h > >Hehehe! You could also arguably make the Dinos SFX... h > h > Arguably, yes, yes, with INT and EGO -- except that Dinos would h > take h > STUN, which is beyond the scope of a vehicle. h > ---
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
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h > From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
h > >Hehehe! You could also arguably make the Dinos SFX...
h >
h > Arguably, yes, yes, with INT and EGO -- except that Dinos would
h > take
h > STUN, which is beyond the scope of a vehicle.
h > ---
You're probably going to get sick of me saying this...
but, you can do that under the Incomplete Rules. :)
(Sorry all this is coming at once, I'm catching up on a
backlog of mail).
-Opal
Incomplete Rules:
http://www.best.com/~jimalj/incomp.html
___
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 05 Nov 97 23:33:12 GMT
X-To: herolist@october.com (herolist) h > h > At 12:50 PM 11/2/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: h > >Well, in the case of certin built in objects, that are protected by h > >DEF of the vehcile (like an internal radio), the vehicle damage h > >should be sufficent. Granted, there could be a bit of expansion here h > >Like, what are the minuses for shooting at someone sitting in a car? h > >Shooting at a tire? What is the DEF & BOD of just a tire? If I am h > >sitting inside a car and start shooting int
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
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h >
h > At 12:50 PM 11/2/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
h > >Well, in the case of certin built in objects, that are protected by
h > >DEF of the vehcile (like an internal radio), the vehicle damage
h > >should be sufficent. Granted, there could be a bit of expansion here
h > >Like, what are the minuses for shooting at someone sitting in a car?
h > >Shooting at a tire? What is the DEF & BOD of just a tire? If I am
h > >sitting inside a car and start shooting into the car, do I count the
h > >DEF? Shoulnd't a window be easier to but a bullet (or other attack)
h > >through than the side panel?
h >
h > Very good points there. Yes, all of this this is definitely going
h > need some reevaluation (at the least) for TUSV.
h > ---
Here I go again... if you use Internal Spaces from the Incomplete
rules, you can answere a lot of these questions.
You can also avoid little problems like really big vehicles that
blow up when you try to blast through a few bulkheads. :)
___
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From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 09:34:15 +1000
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Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
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>
>You know, I still haven't seen these....
>
>Have you put them on a Web site yet?
>
>Or maybe you could just email me txt (I can't recieve attached files
>from RO) in the body of the message.
>
>Thanx
>
ack! my files got corrupted *but you know that by now*
but in any even i will be doing a full re-hash and
i'll let the list know when it's done. . web-page
is a solid possibility. . .
>___
> * OFFLINE 1.58
>
>
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 05 Nov 97 23:45:00 GMT
X-To: herolist@october.com (herolist) h > h > I do already have a mention of flying carpets built as vehicles. h > That h > picture you describe, though, is definitely classic! h > What was really going through my mind, though, was those h > hoverboards (or h > whatever they were called) from Back to the Future, Part II. h > ---
Subject: Re: TUSV - Added feature
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h >
h > I do already have a mention of flying carpets built as vehicles.
h > That
h > picture you describe, though, is definitely classic!
h > What was really going through my mind, though, was those
h > hoverboards (or
h > whatever they were called) from Back to the Future, Part II.
h > ---
My personal feeling is that if you can pick it up and walk away,
it's a focus, not a vehicle. :)
___
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 05 Nov 97 23:48:02 GMT
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
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h > >>Also, I'd love to see a consistent way of handling limited fuel. I
h > do fuel
h > >>capacity as a Physical Limitation, myself.
h > >
h > > As I think I've mentioned elsewhere (and you probably just hadn't
h > seen
h > >it when you wrote this), I'm handling it as a variation of
h > Dependence.
h >
h > Isn't it just an END reserve?
h >
I've tried that, END reserves burn off far too quickly to represent
common fueled vehicles (like cars). I believe there was a 'range'
(as in how far you can travel) limitation somewhere in Robot Warriors
or something (can't remember).
Physcial Limitations probably work better (ie. needs to be refuled
every 300 light years). :)
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 18:50:33 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Reply-To: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: The Luckiest man on the planet....
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On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Sparx wrote:
> So what do you think? What other powers might simulate luck? I was
> thinking resistant defenses, but no, (Oh, lucky I was bullet proof for a
> second???!!!) No, I don't think so.
I once played in a fantasy campaign (Rolemaster) in which one of the other
characters, who was incredibly lucky to begin with, acquired an artifact
which made him even luckier. At one point, he was captured and stripped of
his armor. When he escaped, he just happened to find a suit of armor which
someone had left lying in the alley.
In that spirit, I'd suggest a VPP for found objects - "Oh look, an M-16!"
Of course, you might just want an even broader VPP for lucky effects like
a falling meteorite striking your opponent (Indirect EB), the sun getting
in your opponent's eyes (Flash), and so on. But that might be a *bit*
unbalancing. (Plastic Man's sidekick Woozy Winks had that sort of luck; he
got it by saving some sort of nature spirit. Woozy was just about
impossible to harm.)
Also, great wealth is just about a given.
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 05 Nov 97 23:55:04 GMT
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
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h > From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
h > On the other hand, take a Dependence that is Common (gasoline),
h > lasts 5
h > hours, and immobilizes the vehicle without any damage. If we figure
h > this last item is worth the equivalent of 1d6 damage, and that the
h > that the time counted is only time in use and not real time, then we
h > to a nice 0-point Disadvantage that the GM can assign to all vehicles.
h > And now here's the kicker: If there's a vehicle that doesn't need
h > refueling in a campaign where this Fuel Dependence is used, then that
h > vehicle takes Life Support vs needing fuel (the equivalent of Does Not
h > Eat
h > for regular characters).
h > ---
In the Incomplete Rules, Vehicles lack CON. One of the effects of this
was that environmental conditions that would normally do damage just
cause the vehicle to cease functioning. Rather than freezing to death
or dying of starvation due to lack of fuel, they just stop. No life
processes to interupt. And, yes LS allows them to run in hostile
environments.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 18:59:47 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: The Luckiest man on the planet....
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>Ok, since it seems all powers are being discussed here lately, let me bounce
>a character concept off everyeon ehere and see what ideas you might come up
>with.
>
>The character in question is lucky, we aren't talking just a little lucky we
>are talking about the type of luck that drives people crazy. Ok, obviously
>I give him the luck ability. That is a start. Now I was thinking along the
>lines of this.
I once built a luck-based character called 'Black Cat' (yeah, real original,
I know...). Black Cat had:
10 STR TK, Fully Invisible, Fully Indirect, No Range Mods, 'Push' Only
Force Field, Fully Invisible, 0 END
2D6 Minor Transform, Fully Invisible, Fully Indirect, No Range Mods,
Cumulative, Anything
With this, Black Cat could cause things to 'fall' or 'drop' when appropriate
(or people to trip or drop stuff), attacks to 'miss' or only hit in a
partial manner, and cause simple changes in the local area (like causing
that electronic lock to 'short out' co-incidentally). Black Cat also had
Danger Sense, 5D6 Luck, and some extra DCV levels (to luckily avoid
attacks). Be warned that a luck-based character gets expensive fast, and you
generally don't get tons of offensive potential in the bargain.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You know, I feel pretty good."
"Yeah, me too. I've got a real positive attitude."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 06 Nov 97 00:11:00 GMT
X-To: herolist@october.com (herolist) h > question. Player of mine wants something simliar to a taser and he h > it as a hand to hand attack, don't think nnd, just a hand to hand h > electrical attack. Now he brought it to me hth (str doesn't figure in h > -1/2) another player of mine with a billy club has just hth for h > and says the taser should be bought as an Energy Blast with no range h > instead of hth with no strength. This is a major difference in points
Subject: Hand to Hand Attacks, Ta
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h > question. Player of mine wants something simliar to a taser and he
h > it as a hand to hand attack, don't think nnd, just a hand to hand
h > electrical attack. Now he brought it to me hth (str doesn't figure in
h > -1/2) another player of mine with a billy club has just hth for
h > and says the taser should be bought as an Energy Blast with no range
h > instead of hth with no strength. This is a major difference in points
.....
h > Advise? Maybe there is justification for the more expensive EB, but I
h > can't
h > see it. Thanks and talk at you later.
HTH or Hand (Normal) Attacks are always physical, so yes, an EB
(which can be physical or energy would be more apropriate).
You're absolutely right about the cost difference, though, it is
out of line, and has been discussed (ad nauseum) on the list before.
Personally I advocate a 5pt verssion of Hand Attack that can be
defined as energy, and would have a cost more in line with EB
and other attack powers. Steve Peterson has gone record saying
that HA should be dumped entirely. That should solve your
problem real quick. :)
My version of HA:
Hand-to-Hand (normal) Attack:
A character with this Standard Power can increase the amount
of normal damage he does in hand-to-hand combat. For 5 Character
Points, the character can buy +1d6 HA. The HA must be defined as
physical or energy, normal or stun-only. Strength adds directly
to the damage of any type of HA just as it does with a hand-to-
hand killing attack - no more than doubling the DCs of the
attack. Alternately a small HA can be added directly to STR
damage with any kind of striking maneuver as long as the HA is
defined as doing normal physical damage with no advantages that
would have to be extended to strength.
Though it cannot be 'spread' in the manner of an Energy
Blast, an HA can be manipulated to improve OCV at the price of
damage. Each 1d6 of damage sacrificed gives a +1 OCV. Since an
HA - even when not focused - is assumed to be somewhat separate
from the character using it, it can be used to Block an
opponent's attack. The character is considered armed and has a
+1 OCV per 3d6 of HA employed. If the character does not want to
be able to use his HA to improve OCV, he can take the -1/4 'Beam'
limitation.
Hand-to-Hand Attack cost: +1d6 HA per 5 Apts, minimum cost
10pts.
___
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 06 Nov 97 00:14:02 GMT
Subject: And now for guns!
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h > From: John Stefanski <jstefanski@internetMCI.com>
h > How do you address the Player Character who built his Champions
h > character
h > as a hand to hand combatant but constantly picks up dropped (or
h > grabbed)
h > guns from the enemy agents to get a ranged attack. These weapons are
h > also
h > useful ones and should be purchased through experience points.
h >
h > Any help?
h > ==============================
h > John Stefanski
If he picks up an OAF and uses it in that fight, fine. That's
just one of the drawbacks of a universal OAF. If he retains
such foci and uses them on a regular basis, he should pay for
them. Just withold his exp from any game where he uses a
stollen focus (that he's holding long-term) to pay for that
focus.
If you're just anoyed because he picks up foci as the opportunity
presents, just have more of your villains either, not use foci,
or use Personal foci. Have agents use guns that require a Familiarity,
so he'll have a -3 OCV if he tries to use them. Or, to get extreme,
make them Requires Skill Roll, with a Side Effect :).
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net (Mike Lehmann)
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 16:16:08 -0800
Organization: Terminal BBS (403)327-9731
Subject: And now for guns!
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-=> Quoting Robert A. West to Mike Lehmann <=-
RAW> Mike Lehmann wrote:
>
> If one of your villains is aware of this tendency he has to grab weapons and
> use them, he could always work up some sort of boobytrapped gun
> (such as a high-po
RAW> This first sentence sounded interesting, but it came across my reader
RAW> as a single line with no wrapping. Note how it overflowed the line
RAW> buffer when being quoted. The remainder of your post was legible.
RAW> Just letting you know that you might want to check your settings.
Oops... that's a problem on my end. I have to put hard returns on my paragraphs to format them or they go screwy.
The full paragraph:
If one of your villains is aware of this tendency he has to grab weapons
and use them, he could always work up some sort of boobytrapped gun
(such as a high-powered one shot taser or bomb). Alternatively, he could
leave a big, impressive-looking (and Bulky) cannon lying around with
limited effects (say, a 1 or 2d6 EB). Maybe the weapon has multiple
settings, and the controls are labelled in Arabic (or Japanese, etc.)
mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net - - - - - Justice Krewe / Enigma Watch GM
- - - - - - http://www.dfw.net/~aronhead/justice_krewe.html - - - - - -
... Reality is for those who can't handle Star Trek.
~~~ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 06 Nov 97 00:28:04 GMT
Subject: How do you address this?
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h > From: John Stefanski <jstefanski@internetMCI.com>
h > How do you address the Player Character who constantly wants to buy
h > equipment during a Champions game with money. These items are
h > obviously
h > useful ones but should be purchased through experience points.
h >
h > Items such as:
h > IR Goggles (IR Vision),
h > SCUBA Gear (Swimming),
h > High-Powered Scopes (Telescopic Sight)
h > Bulletproof Vest (Armor),
h > you get the picture.
h >
h > Any help?
h >
Only allow wealth to be used to buy commonly available items.
You, as the GM, determine what is commonly available. You
also write up such items. In the above list, I would only
consider the SCUBA gear readily available (and then only if
the character has the skill to use it). Bulletproof vests
aren't really that hard to get, but you can't pick one up
at a sporting goods store, can you? Likewise, very few guns
are really that easy to get - let alone get a license to
carry. IR and low-light vision systems are pretty damned
expensive, and not easy to get, (they're 1000s of dollars
aren't they?).
Basicly anything you, personally, couldn't go out an buy
at an ordinary retail establishment should be paid for
with points.
Point out that most of this stuff is pretty dang cheap
anyway. For instance: a simple IR vision: OIF, is only
3 Rpts, and, it's a lot better than the real thing, which
needs batteries, is a bit bulky, gives you tunnel vission,
etc..
Also remember that you build the normal items, so if you
say a 'normal' bullet proof vest is 3 Rpd, and 'real
armor' that's what it is.
I have a short list of what I consider available items
in my Champs game - since there's some high tech it
even includes a stun ray called a 'wireless TASER' (6d
EBe RedPen) - if players want something very simillar
to whats normally available, they can get a cost break
because the item they're paying points for could be
replaced by a mundane version that can be bought for
money.
Replaceable -1/4 to -1 <NEW>
Replaceable is a limitation given to powers that are
duplicated by easily obtainable, independent, foci. For instance
a warrior buying a sword in a fantasy game or a superhero who
wears an ordinary bullet-proof vest. In no case can a power be
both replaceable and independent.
A focus that is virtually identical to independent foci
commonly available in the campaign receives a -1 replaceable
limitation. Such a power must be bought almost exactly the same
way as the independent item it resembles. Its special effects
can differ only slightly. Advantages and limitations should vary
by only 1/4 each. And, the power should be bought to within 1
DC, 1 DEF, or about 5 Apts of the independent one.
A power that has different special effects and limitations
than the available independent foci that most closely duplicates
it can get a -1/2 Replaceable limitation. It must be of about the
same power level (+/-1 or 2 DC, DEF or about 10 or 15 Apts) as
similar independent foci and have no more than +1/2 more in
advantages.
Powers that are different from those commonly available as
independent foci but which still have similar effects and
employment and are not of a radically different power level can
receive a -1/4 Replaceable limitation.
This is a major re-write of the Replaceble -1/2 limitation given
in the old Star Hero (credit where credit is due). :)
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 16:32:44 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Growth
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At 01:40 PM 11/5/97 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:
>> > >Now a question. How many levels of growth are required before the
>> > >persons hand is considered an area effect attack?
>> >
>> > In my manuscript, nine. (Any other numbers out there?)
>>
>> I remember 18 levels from GAC (first edition), but it was considered
>>
>> The issue is whether one wants to grant extra abilities. Growth already
>> adds streching, so area effects would not be out of line. The
>> most important question is when does game balance suffer.
>
> I would say don't add it. In the genre (remember comic books?) the
>really big guys usually find it harder to hit the small guys, not easier.
Nonetheless, the giant's fist still covers a full hex at some point.
Of course, even in the current manuscript TUSV (as a holdover from when
it was going to be The Ultimate Giant Robot) having Area Effect on STR for
free is an option.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 10:45:04 +1000
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Subject: Re: Hand to Hand Attacks, Ta
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At 12:11 AM 11/6/97 +0000, you wrote:
>
>Personally I advocate a 5pt verssion of Hand Attack that can be
>defined as energy, and would have a cost more in line with EB
>and other attack powers. Steve Peterson has gone record saying
>that HA should be dumped entirely. That should solve your
>problem real quick. :)
>
>My version of HA:
>
>Hand-to-Hand (normal) Attack:
> A character with this Standard Power can increase the amount
>of normal damage he does in hand-to-hand combat. For 5 Character
>Points, the character can buy +1d6 HA. The HA must be defined as
>physical or energy, normal or stun-only. Strength adds directly
>to the damage of any type of HA just as it does with a hand-to-
>hand killing attack - no more than doubling the DCs of the
>attack. Alternately a small HA can be added directly to STR
>damage with any kind of striking maneuver as long as the HA is
>defined as doing normal physical damage with no advantages that
>would have to be extended to strength.
> Though it cannot be 'spread' in the manner of an Energy
>Blast, an HA can be manipulated to improve OCV at the price of
>damage. Each 1d6 of damage sacrificed gives a +1 OCV. Since an
>HA - even when not focused - is assumed to be somewhat separate
>from the character using it, it can be used to Block an
>opponent's attack. The character is considered armed and has a
>+1 OCV per 3d6 of HA employed. If the character does not want to
>be able to use his HA to improve OCV, he can take the -1/4 'Beam'
>limitation.
> Hand-to-Hand Attack cost: +1d6 HA per 5 Apts, minimum cost
> 10pts.
whaaat? what about all those lads with rock fists?
>___
> * OFFLINE 1.58
>
>
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 06 Nov 97 00:46:06 GMT
Subject: Dr. TekNo & Light vs. Si
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h > From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
h >
h > Dr. TekNo is a Hi-Tech who has the ability to call upon the floating
h > G-236 satelite through his Omega-CPU. Using the Omega-CPU, he can
h > see people from a bird's eye view and zap them with a large-radius
h > pulse blast.
h > ...how would you represent this?
An Indirect attack that always comes from directly above the victim.
h > The psychotic villian Light is mass-murdering a bus load of nuns.
h > Edison, reporter by night, slips onto the scene as the uncanny
h > Sightsneak (who has Invisibility, sight group only). He's hoping his
h > power of invisibility will make him immune to Light's powers...
h > What's the call on this? Sightsneak's Sf/x: would theay protect
If Sightsneak's F/X is that 'light passes through him with no effect'
he's on the right track. However, I think it's a bit much for F/X -
either Light should have a limitation (attack doesn't work on Invisible
characters or those in Darness fields -1/4). Or..
h > him from injury (what about partial injury?), or would Sightsneak's
h > player have to buy Desoild (only vs. light based attacks)? Would you
h > Sightsneak buy this power 'on the field,' so to speak, if he had the
h > CP?
h >
If a character has missed a power he logically should have, I would
definitely let him buy it in the field. "We'll I've never been
attacked by a living laser before, I'm glad I'm not dead!" If he
doesn't have enough saved exp, I'd even let him get it on 'credit,'
and just funnel his exp into the new power until it's paid for.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: CYBV15A@prodigy.com (MR JOHN BUTLER)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:54:55, -0500
Subject: RE; TUSV
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I am not sure if this was asked<--- playing EMAIL CATCH UP but will
there be the following
1. Animals as vehicles <-- examples : the Black Knight's Horses,
Hellstorm's Chariot
2. Mystical Vehicles <-- Ghost Rider 's Bike<--- either version
3. will there be a section on Vehicles as PC's <-- for example
Knight Rider ( hates to mention that show)
will see what else i can think up
Thanks and a great idea by the way.
J.B
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 17:08:28 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Super Shamus
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ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
>
> Greetings,
> Super Shamus, an ex-P.I., has one power:
> Telelocation.
> In other words, he can find people.
>
> I was thinking something along the lines of a Detect Sense with
> variable Sf/x, coupled with Clairsentience (with enough range to cover a
> large city).
>
> Yet again, I strain thine brains. Thou art wise and valorous--
> if ye dare post upon this topic...
> Try Mind Scan. Perhaps even with a limitation that you can only go to
level one, the direction. And then you start walking. You may need to have
some sort of focus to work with (a picture, an item of clothing.[Although,
the picture would be a better fit for the detective). Another limitation -
only to find those who are lost, or perhaps only to find those who you are
getting paid for.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 17:15:32 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: The Ressurection Man
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ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
>
> Greetings,
> The Ressurection Man has one power:
> He dies and he comes back.
>
> RM is on the panel's chopping block. I can only hope he
> dosen't give the collective gaming minds here too much trouble.
> Try extra body with a limitation that it is only added to the
negative end of the total with invisible power effects. Then have a
regeneration, say 2/turn, that is triggered by going into the extra
negative body and also has invisible power effects.
EG. You by 10 extra body on top of your normal 10. This means
that you have a life zone from +10 (full health) to -20 (real death).
But to everybody around, you die when you get to -10. Once you get past
-10, the regeneration kicks in, you start to get better, you reach +10
body and get up with your wounds suddenly healed.
You may want to include a large aid stun triggered by the
regeneration stopping so that you do wake up.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:19:25 -0600 (CST)
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From: Rob Kemp <baron@stlnet.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. TekNo & Light vs. Sightsneak
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At 11:44 AM 11/5/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Dr. TekNo is a Hi-Tech who has the ability to call upon the floating
>G-236 satelite through his Omega-CPU. Using the Omega-CPU, he can
>see people from a bird's eye view and zap them with a large-radius
>pulse blast.
> ...how would you represent this?
>
Clairsentience with a limit that it doesn't work when very cloudy and an EB
with indirect.... easy.
>The psychotic villian Light is mass-murdering a bus load of nuns. Edgar
>Edison, reporter by night, slips onto the scene as the uncanny
>Sightsneak (who has Invisibility, sight group only). He's hoping his
>power of invisibility will make him immune to Light's powers...
> What's the call on this? Sightsneak's Sf/x: would theay protect
>him from injury (what about partial injury?), or would Sightsneak's
>player have to buy Desoild (only vs. light based attacks)? Would you let
>Sightsneak buy this power 'on the field,' so to speak, if he had the CP?
>
Nope, just as I don't get immunity from radiation based attacks even though
I have life support to high radiation environments. You have to pay points
for defense. You can easily say Mr. Sightsneak can only divert so many
photons before overload. Sorry, mr. Sightsneak.
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 17:20:22 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: The Ressurection Man
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Sparx wrote:
>
> >Greetings,
> > The Ressurection Man has one power:
> > He dies and he comes back.
> >
> > RM is on the panel's chopping block. I can only hope he
> >dosen't give the collective gaming minds here too much trouble.
> >
> > -Jason
> >
> >P.S. - It is just me, or does _every_single_one_ of my posts end up becoming
> >rules disputes or arguements through its evolution as threads?
>
> Well, when I approached the list about a simliar character here is the
> answer I got. Please note: I believe this did cause a rules dispute but
> this is eventually what I did go with. If it is wrong sorry, but it is
> accepted in my gaming group.
>
> 1d6 Transform: Dead Body to Living Body
> Cumulative
> Self Only
> Extra Time: 1 min
> Trigger: Death
Nah, sorry. Tranform cannot be used on yourself. States it in the
last paragraph of the power write up in the BBB before the end comment.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 17:44:30 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: The use of guns and gear
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-- Much has been said about people paying (or not paying) for any gear
which they pick up. The original post didn't make it too clear wether
the equipment was being kept between adventures or not.
If a piece of gear is picked up AND KEPT then by all means, get
the user to pay. If, at the start of the adventure, Mr Shopper goes out
and gets a standard set of survival gear including flak vests, IR goggles
and whatever, then make him pay the points for it.
But if somebody picks up a weapon which was being used against
him just five minutes ago, and goes for a bit of payback, more power to
him. Even if he does it at every opurtunity. Thats the purpose of
equipment, to be used by whoever.
Also, if during the adventure, somebody realises that a piece of
kit would be really handy right about now and Megabucks, with 15 points
wealth, goes out and buys it, has he not "paid" the points for it with
the 15 points spent on wealth.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 20:52:39 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Reply-To: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV: Bibliography
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On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> Bill, you should be ashamed of yourself for having such a brief list!
> There are *so* many TV shows with cool vehicles. Personally, the bulk of
> my early vehicle designs were heavily influenced by the Wacky Races, and
> Tom Slick.
I was restraining myself; I figured other people would have plenty of
other suggestions. But here are a few more:
TV
Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea (Flying Subs!)
The Dukes of Hazard
Batman (The 60's version was campy, but the vehicles were cool!)
Airwolf
Movies
James Bond films
Fantastic Voyage (A shrinking sub!)
Batman (60's TV series tie-in, as well as the more recent ones)
Herbie the Love Bug
Books
Heinlein's The Number of the Beast (A time- and
dimension-traveling artificially intelligent car with an extradimensional
pocket inside, as well as ornithopters, various spaceships, and a whole
mess of characters)
Moorcock's Ship that Sails on Land and Sea in the Elric (and other
Eternal Champion) books
Games
OGRE
Car Wars
That D&D spinoff with the ether ships
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 18:43:52 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy?
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I just need to chime in here on the whole "telepathy can't translate
because Universal Translator does that" concept.
In essence, sure, powers that duplicate other powers are redundant,
thus officially not allowed. But saying that telepathy CANNOT translate
language due to that rule is like saying that you can't gain STR from
Growth, because STR already does that.
Telepathy does many things that UT does not; it finds
hidden/concealed information, can receive emotional information, and can
"speak" to a person without sound.
Universal Translator actually deals with the language(s) itself and has
no time limit or "buffer" size. Generally, telepathy can only produce a
certain level of results before automatic EGO rolls start trying to
force it out (unless fully accepted by the target).
Also, UT works with no penalties from EGO defense, and costs no END.
The two are clearly two different powers, and simply have an area
where - depending on GM fiat - may have somewhat overlapping uses. Just
like Force Field overlaps PD and ED in usefulness....
--
"All of science, all of the vastness of knowledge
of mankind boils down to two things. We look at
stuff and make stuff up. That's it. That's Everything."
-Capt. Spith
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: The Luckiest man on the planet....
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 20:28:25 -0800
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On Wednesday, November 05, 1997 1:54 PM, Sparx wrote:
>Ok, since it seems all powers are being discussed here lately, let me
bounce
>a character concept off everyeon ehere and see what ideas you might
come up
>with.
>
>The character in question is lucky, we aren't talking just a little
lucky we
>are talking about the type of luck that drives people crazy. Ok,
obviously
>I give him the luck ability. That is a start. Now I was thinking
along the
>lines of this.
<snip some good ideas>
High DEX ("Boy, lucky I didn't fall"; "That was close! I'm lucky he
missed."; "I'm lucky to hit him, he's so fast.")
Breakfall ("Lucky I landed on that soft spot.")
Acrobatics ("Lucky I grabbed that pole.")
Suppress vs Special Effect "Attack powers that strike me", AE. "Lucky
their weapons didn't work. Must have been a bad batch of ammo." "Lucky
the grenade mechanism jammed." "Lucky that rock slipped out of his
hands."
Filksinger
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Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 09:54:42 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Giant Monster/Demon Help
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I am running a magically influenced Champions game, and I have left
a play session with a portal of darkness opening and a black tentacle
snaking out to grab an NPC. The Players have no idea how to close the
portal, or defeat what's coming through, or even what is coming through.
(One of the characters might know, but not the current personality that is
in control.)
So, the beastie may just visit our earth. I'm torn between an
Eldritch Horror (reminiscent of Cthulhu-like beasties) with some weird
fear-based Powers, and a shape indescribable to man; an Elder Demon type of
guy like out of D&D, in which case it might just be a straight fight; or
possible something like Trigon the Terrible (out of the old New Teen Titans
books), which means he would take awhile to take down, and might not be
fighting directly.
If anyone has any opinions on the differences between these,
advantages/disadvantages one would have over the other, and ways of writing
them up, please let me know! Thanx!
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 10:42:40 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Bibliography (long - sorry!)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 05:31 AM 11/6/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 08:52 PM 11/5/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>>On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>Games and Game Supplements:
I'm sure SJGames would be proud to know that it was 4/5 of your Games list!
>
>Movies:
There was one... "Those Magnificent Men and Their Fantastic Flying
Machines"? I'm not sure if that is completely correct, but it's supposed to
be a wonderful movie centered around a race between low-tech planes... some
rather unusual designs, from the parts I saw of the film. Also includes a
scene where the pilot has to turn control over to a female passenger, go out
onto the wing, and remove his belt to repair a strut. He also managed to
lose his pants by doing this... the female passenger's father was rather
unhappy.
>
>Television:
>
>Live Action:
>Knight Rider (and its sequel, Team Knight Rider)
And Knight Rider 2000?
>Men in Black: the Animated Series
I assume you wanted to put this under "Animated?"
>
>Animated:
>B.A.D.
>Batman: The Animated Series
Also possibly Superman: The Animated Series. I believe he has one or two
vehicles around (I know they produced toys for some, anyway).
>Robotech
Glad to see you included this... I'm not sure what other Anime would be
widely known by most cartoon viewers... Possibly G-Force, as they show that
on Cartoon Network.
>Thundercats
Silverhawks? Produced by the same people (I'm pretty sure), same formula
team like the 'cats. A group of people who were wounded terribly and
rebuilt as cyborg protectors of space, they could each "fly" in space, and
also had the same caliber of vehicles as the 'cats did.
I'll ask my Players for more ideas.
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 11:51:05 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: The Ressurection Man
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 11:36 AM 11/6/97 -0500, Eric Burns wrote:
>> He bought it as duplication, with "only one body at a time" as a
>> general limitation. With experience, he gets a new body every 8 XP or
>> so (or is that twice as many bodies? I forget).
>>
>> This could be used for "Resurrection Man" (It's very much like "Dr
>> Who" too). The special effects of the duplication is that his body is
>> reborn in whatever fashion you wish. You also have the option of
>> having different powers. (Like Croyd Crenson from Wildcards).
>
>This is a really good idea. I'm curious: what limitation would
>you folks give on a sequencial duplication power? (-1)?
>
Furthermore, how do you run it, exactly? You would have the original body,
and it would buy an exact (or not) Duplicate, once it had the points...
Then, the original body dies, and the Duplicate is activated. Does that
body then buy Duplication with the sequential Limitation? This is the way
it seems the "Duplication at Death" Power would work (for Resurrection Man
and Doc Who). Probably with Trigger (Death) and the SFX that the old body
disappears/changes.
But it doesn't seem to fit the nano-tech guy. He could have Duplication,
One Body At A Time, which would be a lesser Limitation than the other one.
He could actually go back to the old bodies, if they didn't die. Doc Who
and Resurrection Man couldn't... they'd have to lose the Duplication points
in order to change.
So, to ask Mr. Burns's question again, what are the Limitation values?
- Jerry
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 06 Nov 97 09:35:00 GMT
X-To: herolist@october.com (herolist) h > So what do you think? What other powers might simulate luck? I was h > thinking resistant defenses, but no, (Oh, lucky I was bullet proof for h > second???!!!) No, I don't think so.
Subject: The Luckiest man on the
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To: herolist@october.com (herolist)
h > So what do you think? What other powers might simulate luck? I was
h > thinking resistant defenses, but no, (Oh, lucky I was bullet proof for
h > second???!!!) No, I don't think so.
The powers you described are OK. Some other things I've seen luck
characters take:
Dispel against powers with activations rolls: "Whoops, your gun
misfired, lucky for me!"
Reflection - basicly you cause fumbles, people aim at you but
hit thier buddies or themsleves (or guns blow up in the users
face).
Summon (Lucky for me the Cavalry just showed up!) - UNTIL finally
starts showing up for the fight. :)
Actual attack powers with F/X like falling pianos....
There was a Luck-based character in a game I was in called
Providence... Can't remember all her other powers, she had a lot
of them, mostly bought Invisible power effects & Indirect to
represent 'lucky' things that happened around her, like the
above. I know there were others... I can't remember them right
now.
Good Luck :)
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 06 Nov 97 09:37:02 GMT
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
X-Ftn-To: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
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> >That begs the question: Can you buy 'Universal' foci on a vehicle...
> >(I'll just pull the Heavy Machine Gun off the Hummer and off we go...)
> >
>
> yup- vehicle foci aren't attached. . . . they just aren't as mobile. .
> so if you crash the hummer you can use the foci, but you can't just
> take it everywhere unless the vehicle is at the scens. .
>
So you could pull it, but it would be Bulky or something.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 06 Nov 97 09:46:04 GMT
Subject: Re: TUSV - Added feature
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h > >
h > >My personal feeling is that if you can pick it up and walk away,
h > >it's a focus, not a vehicle. :)
h > >
h > Many Bricks in campaign could pick up and walk away with a motorcycle
h > pretty
h > easily. And many people write up Battlesuits as Vehicles (odd moving
h > Battlesuits, anyway). It really becomes a matter of SFX and mechanics
h > relations.
h >
h > - Jerry
Actually, a Motorcycle works just as well as a Bulky OAF as it does
a Vehicle (after all you can be knocked off the thing, it can be
targeted sepparately, etc... all just like a focus).
Vehicle battlesuits I object to vehemently, they just aren't
deserving of the 5/1 cost break (frankly any vehicle under
1 hex isn't usually).
The biggest problem with such things is the way vehicles get
damaged - a vehicle battlesuit with a high defense just bounces
attacks, no stun leaks through to the wearer.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 06 Nov 97 09:50:06 GMT
X-To: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au On 11-05-97 jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote to All... > From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au > Subject: Re: Hand to Hand Attacks, Ta > To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero) > Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero) > > > > At 12:11 AM 11/6/97 +0000, you wrote: > > > >Personally I advocate a 5pt verssion of Hand Attack that can be > >defined as energy, and would have a cost more in line with EB > >and other attack powers. Steve Peterson has
Subject: Re: Hand to Hand Attacks
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To: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
On 11-05-97 jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote to All...
> From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
> Subject: Re: Hand to Hand Attacks, Ta
> To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero)
> Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero)
>
>
>
> At 12:11 AM 11/6/97 +0000, you wrote:
> >
> >Personally I advocate a 5pt verssion of Hand Attack that can be
> >defined as energy, and would have a cost more in line with EB
> >and other attack powers. Steve Peterson has gone record saying
> >that HA should be dumped entirely. That should solve your
> >problem real quick. :)
> >
> >My version of HA:
> >
> >Hand-to-Hand (normal) Attack:
> > A character with this Standard Power can increase the amount
> >of normal damage he does in hand-to-hand combat. For 5 Character
> >Points, the character can buy +1d6 HA. The HA must be defined as
> >physical or energy, normal or stun-only. Strength adds directly
> >to the damage of any type of HA just as it does with a hand-to-
> >hand killing attack - no more than doubling the DCs of the
> >attack. Alternately a small HA can be added directly to STR
> >damage with any kind of striking maneuver as long as the HA is
> >defined as doing normal physical damage with no advantages that
> >would have to be extended to strength.
> > Though it cannot be 'spread' in the manner of an Energy
> >Blast, an HA can be manipulated to improve OCV at the price of
> >damage. Each 1d6 of damage sacrificed gives a +1 OCV. Since an
> >HA - even when not focused - is assumed to be somewhat separate
> >from the character using it, it can be used to Block an
> >opponent's attack. The character is considered armed and has a
> >+1 OCV per 3d6 of HA employed. If the character does not want to
> >be able to use his HA to improve OCV, he can take the -1/4 'Beam'
> >limitation.
> > Hand-to-Hand Attack cost: +1d6 HA per 5 Apts, minimum cost
> > 10pts.
>
> whaaat? what about all those lads with rock fists?
>
I assume you're refering to the Block routine, right?
They can either take the Beam -1/4, limitation, or
they can have fists that are just soo rocky that
they can knock vibroblades aside with thier bare
hands.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 14:54:05 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: RE: And now for guns!
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At 02:14 PM 11/6/97 -0500, John Prins wrote:
>Champions does attract the point crunchers and efficiency mongers.
>
You mean, Engineers?
: )
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 15:49:34 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Giant Monster/Demon Help
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
I am running a magically influenced Champions campaign, and I have
left a play session with a portal of darkness opening and a black tentacle
snaking out to grab an NPC. The Players have no idea how to close the
portal, or defeat what's coming through, or even what is coming through.
(One of the characters might know, but not the current personality that is
in control.)
So, the beastie may just visit our earth. I'm torn between an
Eldritch Horror (reminiscent of Cthulhu-like beasties) with some weird
fear-based Powers, and a shape indescribable to man; an Elder Demon type of
guy like out of D&D, in which case it might just be a straight fight; or
possible something like Trigon the Terrible (out of the old New Teen Titans
books), which means he would take awhile to take down, and might not be
fighting directly.
If anyone has any opinions on the differences between running these,
advantages/disadvantages running one would have over running the other, and
ways of writing them up, please let me know! Thanx!
- Jerry
ps - resending this message and a few others from today... didn't see them
get through before.
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 15:51:04 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Bibliography (long - sorry!)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 05:31 AM 11/6/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 08:52 PM 11/5/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>>On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>Games and Game Supplements:
I'm sure SJGames would be proud to know that it was 4/5 of your Games list!
>
>Movies:
There was one... "Those Magnificent Men and Their Fantastic Flying
Machines"? I'm not sure if that is completely correct, but it's supposed to
be a wonderful movie centered around a race between low-tech planes... some
rather unusual designs, from the parts I saw of the film. Also includes a
scene where the pilot has to turn control over to a female passenger, go out
onto the wing, and remove his belt to repair a strut. He also managed to
lose his pants by doing this... the female passenger's father was rather
unhappy. (But it does show inflight repair...)
>
>Television:
>
>Live Action:
>Knight Rider (and its sequel, Team Knight Rider)
And Knight Rider 2000?
>Men in Black: the Animated Series
I assume you wanted to put this under "Animated?"
>
>Animated:
>B.A.D.
>Batman: The Animated Series
Also possibly Superman: The Animated Series. I believe he has one or two
vehicles around (I know they produced toys for some, anyway).
>Robotech
Glad to see you included this... I'm not sure what other Anime would be
widely known by most cartoon viewers... Possibly G-Force, as they show that
on Cartoon Network.
>Thundercats
Silverhawks? Produced by the same people (I'm pretty sure), same formula
team like the 'cats. A group of people who were wounded terribly and
rebuilt as cyborg protectors of space, they could each "fly" in space, and
also had the same caliber of vehicles as the 'cats did.
I'll ask my Players for more ideas.
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 15:52:39 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: The Ressurection Man
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 11:36 AM 11/6/97 -0500, Eric Burns wrote:
>> He bought it as duplication, with "only one body at a time" as a
>> general limitation. With experience, he gets a new body every 8 XP or
>> so (or is that twice as many bodies? I forget).
>>
>> This could be used for "Resurrection Man" (It's very much like "Dr
>> Who" too). The special effects of the duplication is that his body is
>> reborn in whatever fashion you wish. You also have the option of
>> having different powers. (Like Croyd Crenson from Wildcards).
>
>This is a really good idea. I'm curious: what limitation would
>you folks give on a sequencial duplication power? (-1)?
>
Furthermore, how do you run it, exactly? You would have the original body,
and it would buy an exact (or not) Duplicate, once it had the points...
Then, the original body dies, and the Duplicate is activated. Does that
body then buy Duplication with the sequential Limitation? This is the way
it seems the "Duplication at Death" Power would work (for Resurrection Man
and Doc Who). Probably with Trigger (Death) and the SFX that the old body
disappears/changes.
But it doesn't seem to fit the nano-tech guy. He could have Duplication,
One Body At A Time, which would be a lesser Limitation than the other one.
He could actually go back to the old bodies, if they didn't die. Doc Who
and Resurrection Man couldn't... they'd have to lose the Duplication points
in order to change.
So, to ask Mr. Burns's question again, what are the Limitation values?
- Jerry
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 05:15:12 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
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At 11:10 PM 11/5/97 GMT, Opal wrote:
> h > > I have Combine in there, as a variant on Multiform (as borrowed
> h > from the
> h > >old Robot Warriors game based on 3rd Edition Hero). Its strongest
> h > >precedent is from Transformers and Power Rangers.
> h > > "Battle of the Planets"? Is this a movie I missed in my research?
>
> h > *grumble* i just wanted to mention this again- what's wrong with
> h > having a 'combine' power for PEOPLE characters? if this is
> h > precedent-setting, i think the 'treat a vehicle like any character'
> h > idea is a good thing to watch. . .
> h > ---
>The problem with Compine is that different PC's would become a single
>character. If you used Duplication to model this, the higher point
>form pays... and that will be the combined form, essentially giving
>the group the Combine power for free.
I would think it fairly rare that a group of, say, five beginning
superheroes, each based on 100 points with 150 worth of Disadvantages, will
have a Combined form which is worth more than 1250 total points. If the GM
allows such a construct, then there is something seriously wrong IMO; my
adaptation of the Devourer of Worlds is about that expensive, making it
already the highest-point being in the Champions Universe.
>If you invert the cost structure so the individual characters pay,
>then you have a potential for abuse, as there is no logical way
>to limit the power of the combined form.
No inversion necessary, as pointed out above.
I do have some basic guidelines for the GM not allowing the
aforementioned 1250 point beginning character.
>With Vehicles, however, you can evade this problem:
>
>A group of characters would all contribute points to a single, very
>potent vehicle. That vehicle would then buy Duplication to split
>itself in to each of the PC's individual Vehicles.
>
>Simple.
If it comes to the point that the big vehicle is actually somehow more
expensive than all of the others combined, then this would be the way to go.
>'treat a vehicle like any other character' is a good idea. It's *the*
>way to take advantage of the Hero System character building rules,
>which are already so well developed. Instead of having sepparate
>rules for vehicles, others for AIs, Robots, Spirits, Bases, etc...
>you can use the core rules for all of them. All you need is
>a little facillitator to bring them all together... that's what the
>Incomplete Rules are!
>
>Incomplete Rules:
>http://www.best.com/~jimalj/incomp.html
While I will (with the authors' permission) be raiding that for ideas, I
don't think that TUSV would be an appropriate place to have the Incomplete
Rules published in full. However, I do think that it would be good if Hero
Plus would resume the Almanacs so they could be published there.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 05:31:29 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: TUSV: Bibliography (long - sorry!)
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At 08:52 PM 11/5/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>I was restraining myself; I figured other people would have plenty of
>other suggestions. But here are a few more:
Well, if you're going to do that, Bill, at least put the categories in
alphabetical order (Books, Comics, Games, Movies, and TV) to make it easy
for me to make additions! :-]
But I am going to go ahead, break down, and post my Bibliography as it
currently stands, including ideas you've given me, Bill. If anybody has a
problem with it, I apologize. If anybody has any suggested additions, I
welcome them (this being the whole purpose for the posting.
Books:
Adams, Douglas. Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy series.
Asprin, Robert. Phule's Company and Phule's Paradise.
Heinlein, Robert. The Number of the Beast.
Heinlein, Robert. Starship Troopers.
McKinney, Jack. Robotech series. Based on the TV series.
Moorcock, Michael. The Ship That Sails on Land and Sea.
Niven, Larry. Known Space series.
Various Authors. Star Trek series. Based on characters in the TV series
as well as all of its spinoffs.
Verne, Jules. Around the World in 80 Days.
Verne, Jules. 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea.
Comics:
(This list is in addition to any comics based on TV shows or movies listed
below, of which there are several. Not all of these feature characters
whose adventures centered around vehicles; in fact, most don't. However,
those others do feature at least one significant vehicle that can influence
your campaign.)
Balloon Buster
Batman
Blue Beetle
Enemy Ace
Fantastic Four
Ghost Rider
Lobo
Judge Dredd
The Punisher
Silver Surfer
Vigilante
The Watchmen
Wonder Woman
X-Men
Games and Game Supplements:
(In addition to games based on movies, TV shows, comics, etc., which are
listed in this Bibliography:)
Autoduel Champions
Car Wars
GURPS Vehicles
OGRE
Starjammers
Movies:
(As above, not all of these motion pictures are strictly vehicle-centered,
but all feature at least some vehicles that players and GMs may use as
examples.)
Airwolf
Back To the Future (all three installments)
Batman and its sequels
Battlestar Galactica
Ben Hur
The Big Bus
Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure and Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey
Blue Thunder
Bond… James Bond (take your pick)
Chitty Chitty Bang Bang
Christine
Crimson Tide
Dune
Fantastic Voyage
G.I. Joe: The Movie
Gumball Express
Heavy Metal
Herbie the Love Bug (and its sequels)
The Hunt for Red October
Independence Day
Innerspace
The Jetsons
Judge Dredd
The Last Starfighter
Mad Max (and its sequels)
Memphis Belle
Men In Black
Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers: The Movie (and its sequel, Turbo: A Power
Rangers Movie)
Robocop
Robot Jox
Robot Wars
Star Trek (all movies)
Star Wars (all installments)
Starship Troopers
Steel
The Time Machine
Timecop
Transformers: The Movie
20,000 Leagues Under the Sea
Who Framed Roger Rabbit? (Imagine your PCs vs Bennie the Cab!)
Television:
Live Action:
Airwolf
Babylon 5
Batman
Battlestar Galactica
Big Bad Beetleborgs
Blake's 7
Buck Rogers in the Twenty-Fifth Century
Doctor Who (especially several of the Jon Pertwee episodes)
Earth-2
Earth: Final Conflict
Green Hornet
Highwayman
The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
The Human Target
Knight Rider (and its sequel, Team Knight Rider)
Lost In Space
MANTIS
Masked Rider
Men in Black: the Animated Series
Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers (and its spinoffs, Power Rangers Zeo and
Power Rangers Turbo)
Mission Genesis
Robocop
seaQuest DSV
Space: Above and Beyond
Star Trek (and its spinoffs)
Street Hawk
Thunder in Paradise
Timecop
V
Viper (for the uninitiated, this has nothing to do with the Champions
Universe VIPER agency)
Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea
Where In Time is Carmen Sandiego? (the Chronoskimmer does have some
interesting features)
Wonder Woman (she doesn't use the Invisible Plane much, but still…)
Animated:
B.A.D.
Batman: The Animated Series
Biker Mice from Mars
Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventures
Captain Simian and the Space Monkeys
Centurions
Chip ‘n' Dale's Rescue Rangers
Darkwing Duck
Exo-Squad
The Fantastic Four
Fantastic Journey
Flash Gordon
G.I. Joe
Go-Bots
He-Man and the Masters of the Universe
Iron Man (he does use vehicles, besides his armor)
The Jetsons
Jonny Quest
King Arthur and the Knights of Justice (though not motorized, their
vehicles are very combat-effective)
Men In Black
Mighty Ducks
Mighty Orbots
Pole Position
Real Ghostbusters
Road Rovers
Robocop
Robotech
Skysurfer Strike Force
Space Ghost
Speed Buggy
Speed Racer
Spider-Man (he doesn't use vehicles, but some of his foes do)
Street Sharks
SWAT Cats
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles
Teen Turbo
Thunderbirds
Thundercats
The Tick (a couple of the villains have interesting vehicles)
Tom Slick (part of the George of the Jungle rotation)
Transformers
Ultra Force
Voltron (all three sets)
Wacky Races
Where On Earth is Carmen Sandiego? (the animated version, not the game show)
The Why Why Family
X-Men
---
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Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 05:36:28 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV
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At 07:54 PM 11/5/97 -0500, MR JOHN BUTLER wrote:
>I am not sure if this was asked<--- playing EMAIL CATCH UP but will
>there be the following
>
>1. Animals as vehicles <-- examples : the Black Knight's Horses,
>Hellstorm's Chariot
There's a difference between riding an animal and using one to provide
Movement for your vehicle.
If you're riding an animal, it's an animal, and is within the scope of
the Hero Bestiary (a nice, fairly thorough job of a book, if a bit
uninspired).
If an animal is pulling or carrying your vehicle, then that's how you
build it, paying points for the vehicle (with no Movement) and the animal
separately.
>2. Mystical Vehicles <-- Ghost Rider 's Bike<--- either version
I'm not sure what distinction there would be (in game mechanics terms)
from normal vehicles.
>3. will there be a section on Vehicles as PC's <-- for example
>Knight Rider ( hates to mention that show)
Not a separate section, but an ongoing possibility. "Self-aware
vehicles" such as KITT, the Transformers, the Orbots, and so forth are
mentioned throughout the book.
> will see what else i can think up
>
>Thanks and a great idea by the way.
Thank you! :-]
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Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 05:40:11 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: The Luckiest man on the planet....
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At 04:16 PM 11/5/97 -0600, Sparx wrote:
>Ok, since it seems all powers are being discussed here lately, let me bounce
>a character concept off everyeon ehere and see what ideas you might come up
>with.
>
>The character in question is lucky, we aren't talking just a little lucky we
>are talking about the type of luck that drives people crazy. Ok, obviously
>I give him the luck ability. That is a start. Now I was thinking along the
>lines of this.
>
>He has normal character stats, he isn't a superhero, just a really lucky
>guy. On top of this I was thinking of adding
>
>50% - 50% Resistant Damage Reduction Activate 14- (Ooh....lucky for me, that
>shot was just a flesh wound.)
>
>Some basic Martial Arts (Yeah, I know how to fight in a bar) with Damage
>Classes on an Activate 14- (Wow, that was a lucky shot.)
Maybe the Martial Arts can have No Conscious Control? A bunch of
bullies try to beat him up, and he tries to talk his way out of it,
gesturing wildly and accidently knocking them unconscious.
>Ok, I justify the activation rolls because it is luck afterall, not skill
>and not power. Luck holds out, but it isn't always there.
>
>So what do you think? What other powers might simulate luck? I was
>thinking resistant defenses, but no, (Oh, lucky I was bullet proof for a
>second???!!!) No, I don't think so.
Um... skill levels with DCV?
Maybe a small VPP of items that he "just happens to have with him"?
(It's early in the morning, and my brain is trying to focus on TUSV and
my Fantasy Hero game...)
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Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 05:44:39 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV - Added feature
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At 11:45 PM 11/5/97 GMT, Opal wrote:
> h > I do already have a mention of flying carpets built as vehicles.
> h > That
> h > picture you describe, though, is definitely classic!
> h > What was really going through my mind, though, was those
> h > hoverboards (or
> h > whatever they were called) from Back to the Future, Part II.
>
>My personal feeling is that if you can pick it up and walk away,
>it's a focus, not a vehicle. :)
In a world where super-strong characters can lift and carry cars with
ease, this isn't always the case. ("We're not going to rob the bank --
we're going to *steal* it!") For that matter, with my own STR of 8 I can
pick up and carry an electric wheelchair or a scooter (at least, for a
short distance), and these are definitely vehicles.
---
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Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 07:10:52 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
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At 09:37 AM 11/6/97 GMT, Opal wrote:
> > >That begs the question: Can you buy 'Universal' foci on a vehicle...
> > >(I'll just pull the Heavy Machine Gun off the Hummer and off we go...)
> >
> > yup- vehicle foci aren't attached. . . . they just aren't as mobile. .
> > so if you crash the hummer you can use the foci, but you can't just
> > take it everywhere unless the vehicle is at the scens. .
>
>So you could pull it, but it would be Bulky or something.
You know, it's discussions like these that are the whole reason I
brought up the subject in the first place.
This will be addressed, and the suggestion you give, Opal, will be close
to how I work it. (It'll take some kind of technical Skill to get all the
necessary components of the thing off, too.)
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X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 20:13:41 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: RE: And now for guns!
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At 07:47 PM 11/6/97 -0500, John Prins wrote:
>That's, BTW, very genre. With the exception of 'radiation accidents', very
>few heroes other than gadget-types ever get new powers on a frequent basis.
>Show me the last time Cyclops or Spiderman got a 'new power'.
>
Well, Spidey had that Cosmic power-up for a little while... but he lost it
again. A plot device that granted him new powers temporarily. Didn't he
also get that "impact webbing" from Ben? And then he was powered down, and
right before Ben kicked it, he got his powers back? But nothing new... and
I think it's mostly the "new" heroes that get more power ups.
>>Sure, savvy use of multipower slots can let you buy a new blast every
>>other week, and that VPP can let you have whatever you want within
>>limits. But what if you want to master the ability to shield yourself
>>from bullets (forcefield) or maybe that last mental blast you took
>>awakened your latent TK. At ~2 experience per session. It takes player
>>months to get even the simplest enhancement. I ask you, does the genre
>>really appear to be that stagnant in the comic books?
>
>YES!!! Supers can (and do) go for _years_ without significant change, and
>then, wham-bang, radiation accident and some new powers added, some old ones
>lost, etc. In fact, the character that changed the most in a short period of
>time, to my memory, is Psylocke of the X-Men. She went from mousy model and
>telepath to being a 'Captain Britian' clone with telepathy (arguably she was
>a fairly weak telepath to begin with, when she had the Cap.Britian
>augmentation suit she would have hit the 250-300 point range. She gets her
>eyes torn out by Slaymaster, and retires from heroing. Later, Mojo shows up,
>she gets new eyes and joins the X-Men as a decent level telepath. Later she
>gets some really spiffy armor, but loses it in the Siege Perilous trip,
>becoming a ninja thanks to the Mandarin. At this point she's _maybe_ in the
>450-500 range. But we're talking a good 10 years worth of comics (I think.
>Anybody got the exact date of her first appearance?). But each stage was a
>'significant' jump that followed a good long period of relative stagnation.
>
And then, recently, she got some more new Powers from that Crimson Dawn
thing. Shadow Melding or something... Teleportation, only through Shadows.
And I do agree with you, that the Characters probably save their XP a lot
more than many Players do... IMC, at least.
And most of the "completely new" powers that my guys take have lower power
ranges and (often) *severe* Limitations on them, at least to start.
>>I'm not saying just let everyone have everything. All I'm saying is a
>>bit of leniency can really bring out the creativity in the players.
>
>It all depends what you mean by 'lenient'. Snagging an agent's gun once in a
>while and keeping it until the adventure's end is okay by my books. But
>deciding to adopt somebody else's PA as your own without putting the points
>into it - that's both abusive and non-genre.
>
In fact, it fits the DnD "Dungeon Crawl" genre much better... Most of my
Players are old DnDers anyway, and I'd *hate* for them to start thinking of
Champions in the same light...
- Jerry
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Bibliography
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 11:01:15 -0500
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How about the Cannonball Run movies?
There were a couple of cool ideas there -- a car that uses infrared, so
doesn't need to use headlights at night, a car with automatic changeable
license plates (cosmetic shape shift only on plates?).
Dave Mattingly
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:19:28 -0600 (CST)
Subject: TUSV: vehicles within vehicles
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How about vehicles within vehicles ?
I'm not thinking about vehicles that combine into uber-vehicles ala Voltron
(or whatever). I'm thinking about things like the Enterprise's saucer
that can detach and function separately. Or on the other extreme, how
about Hobgoblin (from the animated Spiderman) has his 'regular' goblin
glider, but can attach it to his plane sized goblin glider.
Curt Hicks
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:21:19 -0600 (CST)
Subject: playing disadvantages
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Should have posted this earlier, when the thread on frequency of disadvantages
was still active....
As an interesting exercise, ask your players what they think the
frequency rolls on the other character's DNPC's and Hunteds are.
Curt Hicks
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: Re: The Ressurection Man
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 11:36:57 -0500 (EST)
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> He bought it as duplication, with "only one body at a time" as a
> general limitation. With experience, he gets a new body every 8 XP or
> so (or is that twice as many bodies? I forget).
>
> This could be used for "Resurrection Man" (It's very much like "Dr
> Who" too). The special effects of the duplication is that his body is
> reborn in whatever fashion you wish. You also have the option of
> having different powers. (Like Croyd Crenson from Wildcards).
>
This is a really good idea. I'm curious: what limitation would
you folks give on a sequencial duplication power? (-1)?
-Eric
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From: Bill Burcham <bburcham@summitelectric.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 11:02:45 -0700
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Subject: RE: And now for guns!
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Begin Soapbox mode...
I've always found this issue to be one of the great shortcomings of
Champions (foci). Why should a PC have to pay points for something which
he has acquired through the course of adventuring? Or, for that matter,
pay points for simply role-playing his character intelligently? Should a
brick who uses "street-scenery" regularly to get area effect on his
strength (throwing cars around) or additional hand attacks (beating
people with lamp-posts) have to pay for those advantages/powers? In my
opinion, not everything in Champions has to cost points. It gets silly
after a while. Rope multipowers? For all the things a rope can be used
for, the average normal couldn't own one. It would be too expensive.
What about a fire hydrant? Who pays for its virtually unlimited "Summon
water" power? A 2-way radio really should be standard issue for all
members of a Hero team, but in most cases the PCs are short on points
and therefore don't use them - even though there is really no reason
they shouldn't in real life. IMHO, most people play role-playing games
to role-play - not to crunch numbers and make the most efficient
character. I find that these things add to the flavor of the
role-playing experience. It would be a shame to deny them to the
players; they are just trying to be heroes! A GM who tells the brick
player to "do something else" because he has hit people with sewer lids
too often (and hasn't paid the points for an EB) is missing the point of
gaming. Let the heroes have their guns, let them have their lamp-posts,
hell, let them have rope! As long as it adds to the role-playing
experience. Maybe someone in the group hates guns. Maybe the city will
file a suit against the "lamp-post mangler". I feel that every action
should have an equal and opposite role-playing reaction. Anyway, as the
GM, there may not always be a convenient lamp-post for the player. But
if the PC is not stifled by mechanics, he will think of something else -
and be a HERO!
End Soapbox mode.
============
Bill Burcham (bburcham@summitelectric.com)
Network/Systems Administrator
SUMMIT Electric Supply
Hear-Forget, See-Learn, Do-Understand
-----Original Message-----
From: Opal@october.com [SMTP:Opal@october.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 1997 5:14 PM
To: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: And now for guns!
h > From: John Stefanski <jstefanski@internetMCI.com>
h > How do you address the Player Character who built his
Champions
h > character
h > as a hand to hand combatant but constantly picks up dropped
(or
h > grabbed)
h > guns from the enemy agents to get a ranged attack. These
weapons are
h > also
h > useful ones and should be purchased through experience
points.
h >
h > Any help?
h > ==============================
h > John Stefanski
If he picks up an OAF and uses it in that fight, fine. That's
just one of the drawbacks of a universal OAF. If he retains
such foci and uses them on a regular basis, he should pay for
them. Just withold his exp from any game where he uses a
stollen focus (that he's holding long-term) to pay for that
focus.
If you're just anoyed because he picks up foci as the
opportunity
presents, just have more of your villains either, not use foci,
or use Personal foci. Have agents use guns that require a
Familiarity,
so he'll have a -3 OCV if he tries to use them. Or, to get
extreme,
make them Requires Skill Roll, with a Side Effect :).
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
X-Sender: fogi@mail.inter.net.il
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 20:05:26 +0200
From: Ori Folger <fogi@inter.net.il>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Bibliography (long - sorry!)
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At 05:31 06/11/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>Games and Game Supplements:
>Starjammers
This reminds of what is, IMO, TSR's best setting - Spelljammer. There was a
lot of detail concerning the space ships there, and the variety and methods
of travel are really stunning. I mean, they had a ship which used huge
space hamster running in a wheel as an energy source. If that's not worth
mentioning, I don't know what is.
Ori Folger
---
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Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:28:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: And now for guns!
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Bill Burcham writes:
>
>
> Begin Soapbox mode...
>
> I've always found this issue to be one of the great shortcomings of
> Champions (foci). Why should a PC have to pay points for something which
> he has acquired through the course of adventuring?
Mainly because the genre says that superheroes _don't_ go around acquiring new
and nifty gadgets, etc. In a genre where it is appropriate that PCs do this
(hack and slash, for example), simply declare the items 'independent' and leave
it at that. They don't have to pay anything to keep the item.
> Or, for that matter,
> pay points for simply role-playing his character intelligently? Should a
> brick who uses "street-scenery" regularly to get area effect on his
> strength (throwing cars around) or additional hand attacks (beating
> people with lamp-posts) have to pay for those advantages/powers?
In general, no. You would, however, have to pay for the ability to always have
a car handy (for example).
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From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:28:51 -0800 (PST)
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Subject: Re: And now for guns!
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Bill Burcham writes:
>
>
> Begin Soapbox mode...
>
> I've always found this issue to be one of the great shortcomings of
> Champions (foci). Why should a PC have to pay points for something which
> he has acquired through the course of adventuring?
Mainly because the genre says that superheroes _don't_ go around acquiring new
and nifty gadgets, etc. In a genre where it is appropriate that PCs do this
(hack and slash, for example), simply declare the items 'independent' and leave
it at that. They don't have to pay anything to keep the item.
> Or, for that matter,
> pay points for simply role-playing his character intelligently? Should a
> brick who uses "street-scenery" regularly to get area effect on his
> strength (throwing cars around) or additional hand attacks (beating
> people with lamp-posts) have to pay for those advantages/powers?
In general, no. You would, however, have to pay for the ability to always have
a car handy (for example).
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 23:56:32 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: TUSV
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Rick Holding wrote:
>Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>> If an animal is pulling or carrying your vehicle, then that's how you
>> build it, paying points for the vehicle (with no Movement) and the animal
>> separately.
>
> Isn't a vehicle with no movement called a base....?
>
> Just as a base with movement is called a vehicle.
>
So, how much does a Base weigh? We need to know that, so we can have our
animals pull/carry it... If we can figure out how much the Baxter Building
weighed, we can figure out how strong Gladiator was (picked it up by the
corner).
- Jerry
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:10:42 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Reply-To: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Bibliography (long - sorry!)
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Great bibliography, Bob!
I do have a few more suggestions for you. I may be trickling them to you a
few at a time, but at least I'll alphabetize them this time. 8-<)>
Books
Dahl, Roald. The Great Glass Elevator
King, Stephen. Christine
Comics
Micronauts
Games
Spy Hunter (videogame). I still crank up the Peter Gunn theme when I'm
driving sometimes.
Movies
Apollo 13
Damnation Alley. (Includes an armored RV that traverses the
post-apocalyptic landscape. I visited LA a few years back and saw the
vehicle sitting in a used car lot!)
Death Race 2000
The Right Stuff
TV
Live Action:
My Mother the Car
Salvage I (Andy Griffith builds a rocket in a junkyard.)
Animated: Star Blazers (Converting a WWII battleship into a spaceship is
cool!)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:14:40 -0500 (EST)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: RE: And now for guns!
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>I've always found this issue to be one of the great shortcomings of
>Champions (foci). Why should a PC have to pay points for something which
>he has acquired through the course of adventuring?
Well, if it's Independant, he doesn't. But you can imagine how quickly this
can get out of hand - "Look, a shiny new suit of power armor for the
mentalist! And Dr.Techno can keep it in good repair! Thank you very much,
Metal Marauder" <slams cell door>.
Basically, this doesn't happen because it doesn't happen in the comic books.
Very seldom does anyone just 'grab stuff' and keep it -forever-, unless it's
part of their origin or something.
>Or, for that matter,
>pay points for simply role-playing his character intelligently? Should a
>brick who uses "street-scenery" regularly to get area effect on his
>strength (throwing cars around) or additional hand attacks (beating
>people with lamp-posts) have to pay for those advantages/powers?
Nope, that's using the environment - which someone else has paid for (bases,
vehicles, grounds). Just as if they were universal foci. BUT, if Joe Brick
is consistantly carrying a tree (like on a long desert trek), he's sort of
being abusive.
>In my
>opinion, not everything in Champions has to cost points.
Not everything does. Your costume is (generally) free, as is your 'personal'
posessions that have no combat potential.
It gets silly
>after a while. Rope multipowers? For all the things a rope can be used
>for, the average normal couldn't own one.
Yeah, Champs sort of breaks down on rope. But somebody trained to use rope
in a combat manner should probably pay for it. And quick, name me five
superheroes that _routinely_ carry ordinary rope to tie people up with, and
aren't gadgeteers.
> It would be too expensive.
>What about a fire hydrant? Who pays for its virtually unlimited "Summon
>water" power?
The taxpayers of the city.
>A 2-way radio really should be standard issue for all
>members of a Hero team, but in most cases the PCs are short on points
>and therefore don't use them - even though there is really no reason
>they shouldn't in real life.
And not all superhero teams use them in comic books, either, I'll point out.
Radios are dirt cheap for a LOT of utility: Radio Listen and Transmit, OIF
Wristwatch - 3 points.
> IMHO, most people play role-playing games
>to role-play - not to crunch numbers and make the most efficient
>character.
Champions does attract the point crunchers and efficiency mongers.
> I find that these things add to the flavor of the
>role-playing experience. It would be a shame to deny them to the
>players; they are just trying to be heroes! A GM who tells the brick
>player to "do something else" because he has hit people with sewer lids
>too often (and hasn't paid the points for an EB) is missing the point of
>gaming.
Well, let's hope he buys WF: Sewer Lids...:-). If he carries around sewer
lids, he should pay for it. Going hunting for one in the middle of combat is
another matter.
>Let the heroes have their guns, let them have their lamp-posts,
>hell, let them have rope! As long as it adds to the role-playing
>experience.
Who will buy a energy blast or RKA when he can grab a M16 for free? Can't
you just see somebody pumping all his points into attributes and skills, and
then relying on (very effective) 'normal' weaponry? A machinegun is quite
effective against a LOT of villians.
>Maybe someone in the group hates guns.
Or maybe not - don't count on it.
>Anyway, as the
>GM, there may not always be a convenient lamp-post for the player.
Exactly. If there always is one, or a good chance of one, then start paying
points!
> But
>if the PC is not stifled by mechanics, he will think of something else -
>and be a HERO!
Cow-cookies. The point scraping generally comes at character creation.
Paying points is a matter of character concept. If it's character concept to
have a gun, buy the gun. If it's character concept to constantly toss around
cars at the enemy, by an AE attack (requires car). Most 'heroic' bricks
won't be throwing around cars too much, unless there's something they just
can't hit any other way (fists generally do more damage and don't cause as
many lawsuits). If it's not character concept to use guns, don't buy guns,
and discourage the players from using them except in extremis (by giving out
lesser XP awards).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You know, I feel pretty good."
"Yeah, me too. I've got a real positive attitude."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 00:27:22 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: RE: And now for guns!
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Michael Jones wrote:
>At 08:13 PM 11/6/97 +0500, Jerry Driscoll (me) wrote:
>>Well, Spidey had that Cosmic power-up for a little while... but he lost it
>>again. A plot device that granted him new powers temporarily. Didn't he
>>also get that "impact webbing" from Ben? And then he was powered down, and
>>right before Ben kicked it, he got his powers back? But nothing new... and
>>I think it's mostly the "new" heroes that get more power ups.
>>
>Yeah, but he should have kept it. he's BOUND to have the 'cp'
>for some new toys. . this is just examples of comics which are getting
>a bit stagnant. .
>
He didn't get to keep it, 'cause it wasn't his... That cosmic power (forgot
what it's called) belongs to a character concept that I had only seen in
Micronauts, although I think it came up elsewhere. Anyway, there's this
"floating" power that picks people at random, and they bacome this hero.
The premise of giving it to Spidey was that he was *already* a hero... but
the power has *never* stayed with any one person. And it would've made
Marvel's most iconic hero nearly unrecognizable.
As far as them getting stagnant, I don't read the Spidey books, but I think
there have been some pretty neat storylines... they *tried* to shake things
up, anyway. The Jackal was back from the dead, the clones, power loss, the
whole Green Goblin back from the dead thing, Doc Ock is back from the dead
(okay, maybe this part is overdone), Peter had a kid and lost it (now where
did I put that baby)... I don't think it's much worse than some campaigns,
really.
>
<snip>
>>In fact, it fits the DnD "Dungeon Crawl" genre much better... Most of my
>>Players are old DnDers anyway, and I'd *hate* for them to start thinking of
>>Champions in the same light...
>>
>i'd advise a vpp- scavenged weapons. you could even let them exceed
>the active points limit if them manage to 'aquire' comething really
>tough,
>
Well this also fits into a SFX from one of my favorite comics...
Thunderbolts. Techno once grabbed an *incredible* amount of high-tech
assault blasters, and reconfigured them into a huge multi-barrelled
waopon... I guess he just picked up the OAFs and had a Power that allowed
him to reconfigure them...
But you don't need the extra VPP if they're just going to pick up the gun or
whatever for one fight (or one sequence of fights). As long as they aren't
really carrying it around on a regular basis. Now, what that VPP *is* good
for, is that you can have any equipment you've picked up in *previous*
adventures, assuming you haven't lost it, and you have it stashed away
somewhere (like you hallway closet). I'd be wary of giving them a bonus
just 'cause they found something "really tough." Like if they could only
get a .45, and they find a BFG... They can carry the BFG (Bulky!) for this
adventure, or part of it, but then they toss it in their trophy room, or
hand it over to the feds... much more genre, anyway.
- Jerry
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: And now for guns!
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>>>>> "BB" == Bill Burcham <bburcham@summitelectric.com> writes:
BB> I've always found this issue to be one of the great shortcomings of
BB> Champions (foci). Why should a PC have to pay points for something which
BB> he has acquired through the course of adventuring?
If Starguy wants to acquire a new 12D6 Energy Blast he has to pay for it.
BB> Or, for that matter, pay points for simply role-playing his character
BB> intelligently? Should a brick who uses "street-scenery" regularly to
BB> get area effect on his strength (throwing cars around) or additional
BB> hand attacks (beating people with lamp-posts) have to pay for those
BB> advantages/powers?
If Starguy wants an 8D6 Explosion attack he has to pay for it.
That's what it comes down to. If one character has to spend points to
obtain a given effect, then all characters should pay points to obtain
similar effects. Because if the brick gets an 8D6 Explosion attack without
paying for it you are being unfair to the characters that do have to spend
their points for their abilities.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
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From: Bill Burcham <bburcham@summitelectric.com>
Subject: RE: And now for guns!
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:25:31 -0700
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Soapbox mode on...
Agreed. By the same token, if one character doesn't have to pay points
for a particular power then another character shouldn't have to either.
How often do brick characters perform "strength-related" special attacks
such as throwing cars (for area effect) and beating others with
lamp-posts (additional hand attack)? Once every game session? Twice?
Shouldn't every brick then buy AoE on his Strength? Balderdash. Those
abilities come through the creative use of their great strength. This
should be rewarded. Creativity enhances the role-playing game for
everyone. As it stands in Champions now, it is discouraged. Likewise,
the mentalist who finds a suit of armor might find it useful for a
while. But later may find that the foes of the suit's previous owner are
now gunning for him! Or when it gets damaged, it exposes the occupant to
a terminal dose of bizarre radiation (transform). The previous owner may
be the only one who could help the mentalist after that. All
role-playing decisions can lead to further the plot.
As you might notice, I am a proponent for a more open-ended gaming
style. I think that it is ludicrous to believe that everyone in the city
pitched-in an experience point to pay for that fire hydrant (unlimited
Summon water) much less the hose (indirect?). Some things are just
there. They don't need to be paid for by anyone. Call them 'Independent'
if you must, but I (personally) don't worry about it. It's not
important. What is important is the game. It is why everyone gathers
together for a good time. If Joe Hero wants to pick up a blaster off of
a fallen agent and use it for a while, more power to him. I see it as
intelligent as a brick throwing a sewer lid at a flying enemy.
Hopefully, he will have the presence of mind to grab a few ammo clips.
IMHO, Champions does a great job of balancing characters from the
get-go. Building one hero at 250 points and another hero at 250 points;
they are roughly equal in ability. Where I find the system lacking,
however, is with character growth. Basically, you must design your
character with everything you will ever want to do initially - because
you'll never get enough experience to buy anything else of consequence.
Sure, savvy use of multipower slots can let you buy a new blast every
other week, and that VPP can let you have whatever you want within
limits. But what if you want to master the ability to shield yourself
from bullets (forcefield) or maybe that last mental blast you took
awakened your latent TK. At ~2 experience per session. It takes player
months to get even the simplest enhancement. I ask you, does the genre
really appear to be that stagnant in the comic books?
I'm not saying just let everyone have everything. All I'm saying is a
bit of leniency can really bring out the creativity in the players. With
the shackles of the system loosened, PCs are freer to make more
"in-character" or "what my character would do in real life" choices. It
is up to the GM to take those choices in account and provide a good time
for all involved.
Soapbox mode off.
I hope I have not offended anyone with these comments.
============
Bill Burcham (bburcham@summitelectric.com)
Network/Systems Administrator
SUMMIT Electric Supply
Hear-Forget, See-Learn, Do-Understand
-----Original Message-----
From: Stainless Steel Rat [SMTP:ratinox@peorth.gweep.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 1997 1:40 PM
To: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: And now for guns!
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "BB" == Bill Burcham <bburcham@summitelectric.com> writes:
BB> I've always found this issue to be one of the great
shortcomings of
BB> Champions (foci). Why should a PC have to pay points for
something which
BB> he has acquired through the course of adventuring?
If Starguy wants to acquire a new 12D6 Energy Blast he has to
pay for it.
BB> Or, for that matter, pay points for simply role-playing his
character
BB> intelligently? Should a brick who uses "street-scenery"
regularly to
BB> get area effect on his strength (throwing cars around) or
additional
BB> hand attacks (beating people with lamp-posts) have to pay
for those
BB> advantages/powers?
If Starguy wants an 8D6 Explosion attack he has to pay for it.
That's what it comes down to. If one character has to spend
points to
obtain a given effect, then all characters should pay points to
obtain
similar effects. Because if the brick gets an 8D6 Explosion
attack without
paying for it you are being unfair to the characters that do
have to spend
their points for their abilities.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball contains a
liquid core,
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to
rupture, should
\ not be touched, inhaled,
or looked at.
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 19:47:42 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: RE: And now for guns!
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
I'll start by saying that I think that forcing a brick to buy AE on his STR
if he ever wants to chuck a car as a projectile is a bad idea. And that
letting somebody keep around a looted PA suit without paying for it is an
equally bad idea.
>Those
>abilities come through the creative use of their great strength. This
>should be rewarded. Creativity enhances the role-playing game for
>everyone. As it stands in Champions now, it is discouraged. Likewise,
>the mentalist who finds a suit of armor might find it useful for a
>while. But later may find that the foes of the suit's previous owner are
>now gunning for him! Or when it gets damaged, it exposes the occupant to
>a terminal dose of bizarre radiation (transform).
IOW, you're discouraging the mentalist's "creativity" by punishing him for
keeping a PA suit he didn't pay for. Me, I'd rather punish the mentalist
directly for keeping a power armor suit he didn't pay for. It's not about
discouraging creativity. It's about discouraging the abuse of using stuff
you didn't pay for.
My point is, there are grey areas. Everyone has STR, and can throw stuff. A
brick tossing around a car to get an AE attack is not abusive. Why? Well, I
could pick up a (light) table and do the same thing. The brick is just
better at it because he has more STR.
But not everyone has power armor. It's not 'innate' in any way, shape, or
form. Neither is a gun. Only the fact that it's got OAF Universal allows any
idiot to pick it up and _shoot_ it. In Champions, anybody can own a gun,
tucked away under a pillow or in a gun rack. But if you're going to carry it
around with you all the time, it's a POWER and you should pay for it.
>As you might notice, I am a proponent for a more open-ended gaming
>style. I think that it is ludicrous to believe that everyone in the city
>pitched-in an experience point to pay for that fire hydrant (unlimited
>Summon water) much less the hose (indirect?).
Hey, they vote and pay taxes, don't they? That's a (small) investment in
time - but most cities have hundreds of thousands of people with which to
rack up this sort of stuff. The CP cost is so negligible it never shows up
on a character sheet...
> Some things are just
>there. They don't need to be paid for by anyone.
Yeah. They're called dirt and rocks and oceans. Anything man-made involved
somebody's time and effort, which in a way translates into the expenditure
of XP, if even in infentesimal amounts.
>Call them 'Independent'
>if you must, but I (personally) don't worry about it.
Neither do I, though I hold a differing opinion about them.
> It's not
>important. What is important is the game. It is why everyone gathers
>together for a good time. If Joe Hero wants to pick up a blaster off of
>a fallen agent and use it for a while, more power to him.
But how long is 'a while'. And why the hell would anyone buy a blaster in
the first place if they could just get it off somebody else? If I allowed
this sort of thing to happen, I'd expect the players to run off to the gun
store (or underworld gun dealer for the big stuff) every time trouble reared
its ugly head. I can hear them now:
"But we're just using our Wealth creatively!!!"
> I see it as
>intelligent as a brick throwing a sewer lid at a flying enemy.
The point being that the Brick doesn't hold on to the sewer lid 'just in
case a flying enemy comes along'. Neither would Joe Hero hang on to an
(unpaid) blaster over the course of several sessions - if it was 'his style'
to carry a blaster, he would have paid points for it earlier on.
>IMHO, Champions does a great job of balancing characters from the
>get-go. Building one hero at 250 points and another hero at 250 points;
>they are roughly equal in ability. Where I find the system lacking,
>however, is with character growth. Basically, you must design your
>character with everything you will ever want to do initially - because
>you'll never get enough experience to buy anything else of consequence.
That's, BTW, very genre. With the exception of 'radiation accidents', very
few heroes other than gadget-types ever get new powers on a frequent basis.
Show me the last time Cyclops or Spiderman got a 'new power'.
>Sure, savvy use of multipower slots can let you buy a new blast every
>other week, and that VPP can let you have whatever you want within
>limits. But what if you want to master the ability to shield yourself
>from bullets (forcefield) or maybe that last mental blast you took
>awakened your latent TK. At ~2 experience per session. It takes player
>months to get even the simplest enhancement. I ask you, does the genre
>really appear to be that stagnant in the comic books?
YES!!! Supers can (and do) go for _years_ without significant change, and
then, wham-bang, radiation accident and some new powers added, some old ones
lost, etc. In fact, the character that changed the most in a short period of
time, to my memory, is Psylocke of the X-Men. She went from mousy model and
telepath to being a 'Captain Britian' clone with telepathy (arguably she was
a fairly weak telepath to begin with, when she had the Cap.Britian
augmentation suit she would have hit the 250-300 point range. She gets her
eyes torn out by Slaymaster, and retires from heroing. Later, Mojo shows up,
she gets new eyes and joins the X-Men as a decent level telepath. Later she
gets some really spiffy armor, but loses it in the Siege Perilous trip,
becoming a ninja thanks to the Mandarin. At this point she's _maybe_ in the
450-500 range. But we're talking a good 10 years worth of comics (I think.
Anybody got the exact date of her first appearance?). But each stage was a
'significant' jump that followed a good long period of relative stagnation.
>I'm not saying just let everyone have everything. All I'm saying is a
>bit of leniency can really bring out the creativity in the players.
It all depends what you mean by 'lenient'. Snagging an agent's gun once in a
while and keeping it until the adventure's end is okay by my books. But
deciding to adopt somebody else's PA as your own without putting the points
into it - that's both abusive and non-genre.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You know, I feel pretty good."
"Yeah, me too. I've got a real positive attitude."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 22:36:09 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Reply-To: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: And now for guns!
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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>
> >>>>> "BB" == Bill Burcham <bburcham@summitelectric.com> writes:
>
> BB> I've always found this issue to be one of the great shortcomings of
> BB> Champions (foci). Why should a PC have to pay points for something which
> BB> he has acquired through the course of adventuring?
>
I think other people have already sufficiently justified this. Of course,
if you don't want the traditional superhero approach to weaopons in your
game, there's nothing stopping you from using the heroic rules for
equipment.
One campaign idea I've had, but never gotten around to running, is based
around a premise of superheroic powers with freely acquired weapons. It
all starts when the starship of a highly advanced race disintegrates in
the upper atmosphere. Artifacts of their technology are scattered around
the world, to be discovered at random by humans. Most of these artifacts
provide their wielders with great power, and so comes an age of
superheroes.
Building all the artifacts as Independent, I'd expect (and intend for)
this campaign to turn rather dark and very high power pretty quickly.
Anyone ruthless with a powerful artifact stands a good chance of acquiring
*more* artifacts, achieving power rapid power escalation through robbery
and/or murder. Of course, if I wanted a somewhat more stable campaign, I'd
rationalize that only one artifact could bond (for life) with one host,
but I kind of like the idea of a *short* campaign based around a
super-arms race.
To get back to the original thread, my point is that the rules you use
tend to shape the events in your game. The standard Champions "pay for all
your equipment" approach helps steer players toward traditional superhero
behavior.
A friend of mine ran a Dark Champions game a few years ago and thought he
could control the power level better if he charged players for all their
equipment and weapons. It was exactly the wrong approach. If he'd used the
heroic rules, the players would have tended to use the standard guns that
he'd envisioned; paying points for all their weapons, the players
generally gave their characters unusual gadgets. Nobody set out to be
abusive, but the end result was a much less "realistic" game than the GM
had originally intended.
One of the beauties of the Hero system is how easily a few optional rules
can tailor it for different genres; you just have to make sure you use the
rules for the genre you intend.
From: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net (Mike Lehmann)
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 20:22:11 -0800
Organization: Terminal BBS (403)327-9731
Subject: Looking for Rook
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Apologies in advance for the members of the list.
I have tried to contact Brian Wong/Rook (rook@infinex.com), without
success, regarding his spot in my PBEM. I have also noticed that he is
still sending messages to this list, so perhaps this message may get his
attention...
I need to communicate with him immediately, to determine whether he is
still with us...
mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net - - - - - Justice Krewe / Enigma Watch GM
- - - - - - http://www.dfw.net/~aronhead/justice_krewe.html - - - - - -
... While the lunatic dreams the Earth changes.
~~~ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
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From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 14:27:52 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
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At 05:15 AM 11/6/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>The problem with Compine is that different PC's would become a single
>>character. If you used Duplication to model this, the higher point
>>form pays... and that will be the combined form, essentially giving
>>the group the Combine power for free.
>
> I would think it fairly rare that a group of, say, five beginning
>superheroes, each based on 100 points with 150 worth of Disadvantages, will
>have a Combined form which is worth more than 1250 total points. If the GM
>allows such a construct, then there is something seriously wrong IMO; my
>adaptation of the Devourer of Worlds is about that expensive, making it
>already the highest-point being in the Champions Universe.
>
the combine i wrote up (gestalt) simply gave a contribution for each guy.
AND it used the same limit as dupe and multi- maxuimum points in form=
points in base form *in this case the lowest points total of all contributors*
plus the gm can put active points limits like he always can. .
>>If you invert the cost structure so the individual characters pay,
>>then you have a potential for abuse, as there is no logical way
>>to limit the power of the combined form.
how about limiting the active points like usual?
>
> No inversion necessary, as pointed out above.
> I do have some basic guidelines for the GM not allowing the
>aforementioned 1250 point beginning character.
>
the only way to do it for pc's is to have them all make contributions. . .
otherwise they're all useing one pc, which is just plain dumb and
flies in the face of the point of the game. . .
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 09:59:23 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Multiple simultaneous Sf/x
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ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
>Is it possible to have multiple simultaneous Sf/x?
> An example I could think of would be incindary rounds,
>which are both 'heat' and 'impact' damage in one neat little
>package.
> ...or a character whose EB is a gravity/cold S/fx.
> Tell me what you think.
>
Yes.
I assume you're asking if it can affect more than one Vulnerability at a
time? Yes. For the gravity cold attack, if the villain had both
Vulnerabilities, he would take (x1 1/2)x2, for x3 (or whatever the values are).
Of course, it is both these SFX, so if someone had Damage Reduction, only v.
Cold, it would effect this attack fully. (Not just 1/2 the attack.)
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 10:03:37 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: TUSV; Really Cool Akira-type Bike
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ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
> I've seen Akira a few times and have the graphic novels...
> Exactly what the hell can that really cool looking
>red bike do, anyhow? Any Anime vechile that has 'lightning' spinning
>with the tires _has_ to have something nasty going on for it.
> Anyone want to take a shot at the stats?
>
Just to give you a few ideas, I think it was just a real butch bike. Yeah,
it could go really fast, and required a special Transport Familiarity, but I
think the electricity arcing on the tires was just for SFX. Could've been
the power braking circuits. Although it might give a PRE bonus to the rider.
- Jerry
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 15:04:08 +1000
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Subject: RE: And now for guns!
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At 08:13 PM 11/6/97 +0500, you wrote:
>At 07:47 PM 11/6/97 -0500, John Prins wrote:
>>That's, BTW, very genre. With the exception of 'radiation accidents', very
>>few heroes other than gadget-types ever get new powers on a frequent basis.
>>Show me the last time Cyclops or Spiderman got a 'new power'.
>>
>Well, Spidey had that Cosmic power-up for a little while... but he lost it
>again. A plot device that granted him new powers temporarily. Didn't he
>also get that "impact webbing" from Ben? And then he was powered down, and
>right before Ben kicked it, he got his powers back? But nothing new... and
>I think it's mostly the "new" heroes that get more power ups.
>
Yeah, but he should have kept it. he's BOUND to have the 'cp'
for some new toys. . this is just examples of comics which are getting
a bit stagnant. .
>>It all depends what you mean by 'lenient'. Snagging an agent's gun once in a
>>while and keeping it until the adventure's end is okay by my books. But
>>deciding to adopt somebody else's PA as your own without putting the points
>>into it - that's both abusive and non-genre.
>>
>In fact, it fits the DnD "Dungeon Crawl" genre much better... Most of my
>Players are old DnDers anyway, and I'd *hate* for them to start thinking of
>Champions in the same light...
>
>- Jerry
>
>
i'd advise a vpp- scavenged weapons. you could even let them exceed
the active points limit if them manage to 'aquire' comething really
tough,
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 10:15:18 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Bloody Nasty Powers
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ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
>Two odd powers:
> The power to make someone spontaneously bleed.
>
> The power to produce cardiopulmonary palpitations.
>
> Note that armor would not have an effect on wither one of these
>powers.
>
Well, for the first, either a BODY Drain, or an NND RKA (if your GM allows
that sort of horrible thing to do BODY damage).
For the second... what sort of effect are you looking for? Heart
palpitations aren't necessarily deadly, or even that serious. If you're
looking for an outright coronary... I still don't know. It's best to try
and think of what it would do in game terms, and then try and find the mechanic.
Hoping this is for a villain,
- Jerry
ps - there was a villain written up on Red October web page that used other
people's blood for his power's fuel. You might want to go check that out.
Bloodspurt?
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Bibliography (long - sorry!)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 21:30:31 -0800
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On Thursday, November 06, 1997 6:36 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
<snip>
< But I am going to go ahead, break down, and post my Bibliography
as it
currently stands, including ideas you've given me, Bill. If anybody
has a
problem with it, I apologize. If anybody has any suggested additions,
I
welcome them (this being the whole purpose for the posting.>
In "The Stainless Steel Rat Returns" (I think that was the title, it
was second in the series), Harry Harrison gave the SSR a vehicle that
was one type and had the trim, fenders, bumpers, and paint covered
with fakes, making it a different make of car. He would flee the scene
of his crime, duck down a couple of roads, and when no one was
watching a spray of solvent would come out, dissolving the false front
and changing the paint's color.
Filksinger
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Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 11:34:48 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Giant Monster/Demon Help
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At 06:21 AM 11/7/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> Well, at least it's not Merry Andrew with the old "mechanical rubber
>tentacle" gag...
>
Um, well, no. That's the CLOWN thing, right? Nope, no CLOWNs in my game world.
> If you have Horror Hero, that book has some good rules on things like
>fear and stress for the Cthulhoid. That's the only thought I can come up
>with right now.
>
Unfortunately, no, I don't have it, but I'm *vaguely* familiar with
Chaosium's CoC Sanity checks... one of the characters has Darkness based
Powers, and asked if he could see into the portal. Shocked, I said, "Well,
you're not close enough, and that Cultist is in the way, too." So, he moved
closer and around the guy and looked in... I said, "Make an EGO roll, 12-"
He said, "Made it!" I said, "Okay, you get to keep your sanity." He said,
"..."
I'm probably going to go with the Cthulhu-looking beastie... COM -30 (using
the Negative CHA rules) and PRE~25, w/ +25, only for Fear-based Offense
(-1). I was also thinking of it doing damage just by talking into people's
heads... so it can't communicate w/o hurting the heroes. I figure an NND
that does BODY after Unconsciousness... the defense is going to be being
able to speak its language (one of the heroes can, but he doesn't realize
it, and BOY is he going to be upset... it would tend to confirm his
suspiscions that he's a Demon Prince... he's not, but I'm not going to tell
him...).
- Jerry
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Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 11:36:04 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: RE: And now for guns!
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At 05:37 AM 11/7/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 02:54 PM 11/6/97 +0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>>At 02:14 PM 11/6/97 -0500, John Prins wrote:
>>>Champions does attract the point crunchers and efficiency mongers.
>>>
>>You mean, Engineers?
>>: )
>
> Now, *there* and interesting _train_ of thought. ;-]
> (Sorry, couldn't resist.)
>
Help, my train of thought's been derailed!
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 11:44:42 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Bibliography (long - sorry!)
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At 06:34 AM 11/7/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 03:51 PM 11/6/97 +0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>>>Games and Game Supplements:
>>I'm sure SJGames would be proud to know that it was 4/5 of your Games list!
>
> Well, why not? They've done a good job so far.
It's unfortunate that your manuscript is getting done before GURPS Low-Tech
comes out. S John Ross said he's including chariots and whatnot in it...
which is exactly what we had discussed in another thread. I'll ask him if I
can peek. But he hasn't even turned in his manuscript, so he's liable to be
a little stingy. (And I can't get ahold of the playtest copies, as I'm not
on IO.)
> Of course, I omitted all of the Hero books with good vehicle rules
>(Robot Warriors, An Eye For An Eye, etc.) because I'm already incorporating
>what's in them.
But I assume a reference in the front, right?
> And conversely, why should they have all the fun?
They shouldn't. I thought that's why you were doing this book? : )
>
>>>Movies:
>>There was one... "Those Magnificent Men and Their Fantastic Flying
>>Machines"? I'm not sure...
> Wasn't this either a sequel to or sequelled by "Those Mangificent Men in
>Their Jaunty Jalopies"? Or am I thinking of a totally different film?
>
Um, could be. I'll try and figure it out, and get back to you. Probably
not 'til after Turkey Day, tho.
>>>Television:
>>>
>>>Live Action:
>>>Knight Rider (and its sequel, Team Knight Rider)
>>And Knight Rider 2000?
>
> Oh yes, I forgot about that.
>
Yeah, well, who wouldn't.
>>Also possibly Superman: The Animated Series. I believe he has one or two
>>vehicles around (I know they produced toys for some, anyway).
>
> Good point. Yeah, he has this little space thingie he uses at times
>(modified from the rocket that brought him to earth); and if nothing else,
>Lobo's hawg ought to be worth something.
>
> Thanks; I've added both G-Force and Silverhawks.
>
No prob. I'll try and see what else they have on Cartoon Network...
- Jerry
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Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 11:53:35 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Shadow Man
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At 02:27 PM 11/7/97 -0200, Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria wrote:
> How would you create a hero whose powers is that he is something like a
>shadow ?
> He has no human form, just a humanoid shadow is his default form.
>(Distinctive Feature)
> He can alter his form so he can imitate another shadows and hide this
>way (shapeshift ? strecthing ?).
> He can also hide himself on other shadows, as he is only visible if some
>kind of illumination hit him, doesn't need to be directly (Invisibility
>only on shadows/dark, how much would be this limitation?)
> He can walk through anywhere a shadow could... for example, through jail
>bars. (some kind of desolidification ? or would it be included on
>shapeshift ?)
>
Okay, Obsidian (DC Comics), previously of Infinity INC, formerly of Justice
League America, brother to Jade and son to the Golden Age Green Lantern,
Alan Scott, now the Sentinel. Yeah, him. He could do this, but his default
form was human. As I see it...
Distinctive Features, Invisibility (Only in Shadows, -1/2), Desolidification
(Not through solid objects, -1/2). You could give him Shapeshift, although
Stretching would be more appropriate, and maybe a level or two of Growth or
Shrinking.
Shapeshift wouldn't usually let you get through cell doors and bars... The
Desolidification would. Even though it says not through solid objects, you
could modify it slightly, so he could go through windows and cracks, but
they have to be *roughly* large enough for him.
GURPS Supers wrote up a specific power for this. If you have the book,
check it out, too. (I left my copy at home. D'oh!)
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 11:55:16 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Aura Sight
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At 07:59 AM 11/7/97 -0800, Rook wrote:
>Look to Horror Hero page 43.
>
>ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
>
>> How would you work a power of Aura Sight (i.e. determines general
>> health, emotional state, and can act like a 'finger print' so even if
>> an individual is disguised, the character with Aura Sight can try
>> to identify him).
>
Um, Rook, I don't have Horror Hero. I realize you may have wanted to avoid
putting published material on here, but could you at least gimme a hint?
Thanks.
Personally, I'd be willing to say Mental Awareness and a loopy Detect.
- Jerry
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 17:00:29 +1000
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Subject: RE: And now for guns!
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At 12:27 AM 11/7/97 +0500, you wrote:
>Michael Jones wrote:
>>Yeah, but he should have kept it. he's BOUND to have the 'cp'
>>for some new toys. . this is just examples of comics which are getting
>>a bit stagnant. .
>>
>He didn't get to keep it, 'cause it wasn't his... That cosmic power (forgot
>what it's called) belongs to a character concept that I had only seen in
>Micronauts, although I think it came up elsewhere. Anyway, there's this
>"floating" power that picks people at random, and they bacome this hero.
>The premise of giving it to Spidey was that he was *already* a hero... but
>the power has *never* stayed with any one person. And it would've made
>Marvel's most iconic hero nearly unrecognizable.
sawwy i meant the impact webbing, ect. ..
>As far as them getting stagnant, I don't read the Spidey books, but I think
>there have been some pretty neat storylines... they *tried* to shake things
>up, anyway. The Jackal was back from the dead, the clones, power loss, the
>whole Green Goblin back from the dead thing, Doc Ock is back from the dead
>(okay, maybe this part is overdone), Peter had a kid and lost it (now where
>did I put that baby)... I don't think it's much worse than some campaigns,
>really.
actually that was all a save, making things abck like they were- no kid, no
ben, no different uniform, and some 'golden oldies' resurected (three at
last count) nothing new about it. . .
>>>
>>i'd advise a vpp- scavenged weapons. you could even let them exceed
>>the active points limit if them manage to 'aquire' comething really
>>tough,
>>
>Well this also fits into a SFX from one of my favorite comics...
>Thunderbolts. Techno once grabbed an *incredible* amount of high-tech
>assault blasters, and reconfigured them into a huge multi-barrelled
>waopon... I guess he just picked up the OAFs and had a Power that allowed
>him to reconfigure them...
but he'd usually be limited by the active pointsmax of his vpp-
>But you don't need the extra VPP if they're just going to pick up the gun or
>whatever for one fight (or one sequence of fights). As long as they aren't
>really carrying it around on a regular basis. Now, what that VPP *is* good
>for, is that you can have any equipment you've picked up in *previous*
>adventures, assuming you haven't lost it, and you have it stashed away
>somewhere (like you hallway closet). I'd be wary of giving them a bonus
>just 'cause they found something "really tough." Like if they could only
>get a .45, and they find a BFG... They can carry the BFG (Bulky!) for this
>adventure, or part of it, but then they toss it in their trophy room, or
>hand it over to the feds... much more genre, anyway.
>
i meant they could get active points totals past the normal
limit fer vvp's and they'd have to duplicate the
power and advantages exactly, BUT they'd probably have to
add extra limitations- especially fer a small pool,
and maybe a fer extra ones fro exceeding active points lmit. .
hence you can get the bfg for a small pool, but with 8-
activation, explostion, and maybe ANOTHER limitation
which sin't worth any points. .
>- Jerry
>
>
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Bibliography (long - sorry!)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 23:04:57 -0800
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On Thursday, November 06, 1997 10:34 AM, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
<snip>
>Movies
>
>Apollo 13
>Damnation Alley. (Includes an armored RV that traverses the
>post-apocalyptic landscape. I visited LA a few years back and saw the
>vehicle sitting in a used car lot!)
If you are going to include Damnation Alley, you could include its
other forms as well. It started as a short story, turned into a
novelette, then a novel, _then_ a movie. According to the author,
Robert Zelazny, and I firmly agree, as it went down the list it
degraded. The short story was very good, the novelette pretty good,
the novel fairly good, the movie only fair at best.
Filksinger
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: And now for guns!
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 23:40:31 -0800
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On Thursday, November 06, 1997 9:37 PM, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
<snip>
> They can carry the BFG (Bulky!) for this
>adventure, or part of it, but then they toss it in their trophy room,
or
>hand it over to the feds... much more genre, anyway.
>
In real life, taking foci away from downed villains and agents and
keeping it would be illegal. If a man tries to mug you, and you beat
him up, you are not legally entitled to the gun.
Filksinger
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 23:58:07 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Growth
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Brian Wong wrote:
> > The issue is whether one wants to grant extra abilities. Growth already
> > adds streching, so area effects would not be out of line. The
> > most important question is when does game balance suffer.
>
> I would say don't add it. In the genre (remember comic books?) the
> really big guys usually find it harder to hit the small guys, not easier.
Remember that although Jimmy Jiant is really really big, while his
hand is now as large as a cow, his target, relatively speaking, is a
small as a - uh - very small thing. Compared to a fly, my hand (and
everything else) is HUGE, but this doesn't make the fly easier for me to
hit, does it?
--
"All of science, all of the vastness of knowledge
of mankind boils down to two things. We look at
stuff and make stuff up. That's it. That's Everything."
-Capt. Spith
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 16:27:54 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Multiple simultaneous Sf/x
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At 11:09 AM 11/7/97 -0600, Tim R Gilberg wrote:
>> I assume you're asking if it can affect more than one Vulnerability at a
>> time? Yes. For the gravity cold attack, if the villain had both
>> Vulnerabilities, he would take (x1 1/2)x2, for x3 (or whatever the values
are).
>
> Not quite. He'd take X2 damage. You got to use Champs math,
>which says that two X1.5s make one X2.
>
Um, actually, I guess I wasn't clear. VULN: x1 1/2 from Cold. VULN: x2
from Gravity. Heavy Ice (sfx: gravity and cold) would do 3x damage.
>
>> Of course, it is both these SFX, so if someone had Damage Reduction, only v.
>> Cold, it would effect this attack fully. (Not just 1/2 the attack.)
>
> Nope, I'd give the damage reduction, maybe at half level, but
>probably not. Otherwise, what's to keep every attack being described as
>two (or more) mixed SFX which would allow any specific defenses in the
>campaign to be absolutely useless.
>
Man, I'm sorry, I guess I was really unclear. I meant that the Damage
Reduction would affect (not effect) the *attack* fully... It would work,
and not even at half level. Just what you said. Anything else would be
kinda unbalancing.
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 17:51:16 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Shields and Armor...
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At 05:07 PM 11/7/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>>>>> "S" == Sparx <psansone@i1.net> writes:
>S> Ok, first off, I have a guy who has a shield, he wants to be able to
>S> block with it,
>
>DCV skill levels.
>
But that's more of a Dodge... if he actively Blocked (manuever), he wouldn't
be any better, just 'cause he had the Shield. It might give +'s to OCV for
Blocks and the HA (Shield), instead.
>S> hit someone with it,
>
>HA.
>
Good here.
>S> and throw it.
>
>EB.
>
Again, just that it's v. PD. All Good.
>Two-slot multipower, one with the skill levels and HA, the other with the
>EB.
>
But what Lim would you suggest on the other slot?
>S> Ok, next guy, he carries around a Stone IIF that can turn into Armor
>S> OIF.
>
>Um... what does the rock do, other than turn into Armor? Because if that
>is all it does, it is a special effect, not a Focus.
>
Unless it is Instant Change, like he said.
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 18:04:08 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: RE: Shields and Armor...
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ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
>>The Shield
> I think the powers you're looking for are best designed as
>Armor with activation or Missle Reflection for the defensive parts.
I think Levels to Block is still the best, and Missle Reflection is
basically Blocking Ranged Attacks.
>There's a Adv. out there that applies to HtH weapons: 'Can be thrown'
>(Not sure if that's HERO cannon or house rules). If you go the EB
>route, you should buy: 'Range Limited by STR.'
I've seen "Can Be Thrown" on HKAs... but I've seen the Shield done more
with the MP.
> As to the recoverable charge idea, I digress. Although an
>interesting way to deal with the 'recovery' would be to 'bounce' the
>shot just right and...
>
As an aside, Sam Bell (I think) wrote up a real neat version of Captain
America, using most of this stuff. It'd be worth it to check that out.
> Newbies Unite!
> Jason Sullivan
>
How new are you, anyway, Jason? Your ideas tend to be pretty darn cool...
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 18:23:25 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Stuff that breaks. Cool.
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ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
> American Shield uses his shield to devend himself against a
>vicious sports page attack. Let us assume A.S. Shield is not made of
>Ubatainium or any other near-indestructable experimental metal.
>A.S. Shield would be destroyed if it took sufficent damage.
Okay, then it's a Breakable Focus... a Very Poor Choice for a shield...
"When a Breakable Focus is hit by an attack, each attack which penetrates
the Defense of the Focus destroys one of the Powers bought through the
Focus." The paragraph (the last one on page 105) goes on for more
specifics. Also, "any Focus that provides defenses to the character is
automatically hit by an attack that hits the character." So, it seems, if
the Shield protects AS, it will be hit, or it *could* be hit separately, if
you just wished to disarm him (-2 to hit an Accessible Focus). Any damage
from a direct hit could damage the shield *and* blow through to AS. That's
why I'd write is as +Levels to Block instead of Defenses.
>Would the 'extra' damage carry over on to A.S.?
If it were simply an attack that hits AS and he gets his shield up in front
of it for extra defenses, yes. If it targets the shield directly (at -2), no.
>Could Papercut target a weapon, like a gun or sword, in this way?
If it's an Accessible Focus, it may be targeted at a -2 penalty.
>Could he use his power to sever a limb?
If you're using the *optional* Hit Location rules, yes. Otherwise, it's
SFX, and probably shouldn't happen to Named Characters, except as a major
plot device.
> ...and would papercut have OAF if he could use just about anything
>near two dimensional for his KA?
No. For OAF, he would have to be *easily* disarmed, and wouldn't be able to
pick other things up. Some people use OIF, I think, but I'd probably just
give him a -1/4. GM's call.
> Ever plucky guy who asks too many questions and has 1 Champions book,
I wouldn't worry too much about this. I like your questions, they make me
think, I also like helping people. And I only own 6, and 4 of them are 2nd
or 3rd Edition...
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 18:32:22 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Dear ChampionPersons
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ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
> I noticed under the Senses section of my 4th edition Champions
>Deluxe, under the Detect heading, it mentions modifiers such as
>'Discriminatory, Ranged, Parabolic, and 360 degrees,' yet in the above
>paragraphs (where Discriminatory, Ranged, and 360 degrees) are described,
>there's no mention of Parabolic. Could you please help me?
Well, my softcover non-Deluxe BBB doesn't have this ability either, nor the
reference. But my "Revised Edition" Champions book has Parabolic Hearing:
"Allows a character to define a point at a distance and hear as if the point
were 1/5 the distance away. Parabolic Hearing may be bought more than once
(the second time, distance is 1/25, third time distance is 1/125, etc.).
Cost = 15 pts."
It think this became absorbed by Telescopic when it was extended to any sense...
- Jerry, who wonders why X-ray Vision was 20 pt. and N-ray Vision was 30...
and why Telescopic Vision didn't help with Sight Perception Roll Modifier.
Where's Microscopic Vision?
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 05:37:58 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: And now for guns!
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At 02:54 PM 11/6/97 +0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>At 02:14 PM 11/6/97 -0500, John Prins wrote:
>>Champions does attract the point crunchers and efficiency mongers.
>>
>You mean, Engineers?
>: )
Now, *there* and interesting _train_ of thought. ;-]
(Sorry, couldn't resist.)
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Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 06:42:01 -0700
From: Curtis Gibson <Mhoram@apeleon.net>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Bibliography (long - sorry!)
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
But I am going to go ahead, break down, and post my Bibliography as
it
> currently stands, including ideas you've given me, Bill. If anybody has a
> problem with it, I apologize. If anybody has any suggested additions, I
> welcome them (this being the whole purpose for the posting.
>
Books:
Hardwired by Walter John Williams
This is, in my mind, one of the archtypical 'plug into and live your
vehicle' books ever written. Given, it's more cyberpunk than superhero.
--
-Mhoram
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your
two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 18:45:36 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Multiple simultaneous Sf/x
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At 12:56 PM 11/7/97 -0500, you wrote:
>No extra advantage costs for the Sf/x?
>
Not unless you can switch between them, like someone else mentioned. If
it's always Gravity, *and* always Cold, then there's no extra Advantage *or*
Limitation. It'll affect both Vulnerabilities, if they exist, but will also
be stopped by defenses that are "only v." one *or* the other.
Ex.) Heavy Ice attacks Fireman. Fireman has Vulnerability: x2 from Cold or
Ice. Fireman takes x2 from Heavy Ice's Gravity/Cold attack.
Ex. 2) Heavy Ice attacks Featherweight. Featherweight has Vulnerability:
x2 from Gravity attacks. Featherweight takes x2 from Heavy Ice's
Gravity/Cold attack.
Ex. 3) Heavy Ice attacks Damage Man. Damage Man has, amongst others, both
of the above Vulnerabilities. He takes x4(!) damage total.
Ex. 4) Heavy Ice attacks Ice Cream Girl. Ice Cream Girl has 75% Damage
Reduction, Resistant, only v. Ice or Cold. She will only take 25% of the
Gravity/Cold attack's damage, after her other defenses.
The only thing that it might be unclear on would be if someone "stacked" two
amounts of Damage Reduction. 25% v. Cold *and* 25% v. Gravity. But they
would probably add to 50%. (Although that means you could buy 50% to one,
and 50% to another...) It could also be done as: (Damage - Defenses) x 75%
x 75%
Which gives you an effective 57% Damage Reduction, only v. Cold/Gravity attacks.
But most characters will simply buy it as 25% v. Cold *or* Gravity, instead
of "stacking" it.
- Jerry
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Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 18:46:29 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: RE: Multiple S f/x
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> I undertand where your coming from as far as a logistical
>point of view, but I feel that by having more than one S f/x a
>player is getting more than what they are paying for.
Well, let's take a look at your concerns below, okay?
> Zero Tolerence wears a power suit that has a vulnrability
>to electricity and magnetism. Wavelegnth has a variable S f/x
>EB. Electro-Magnetic King has an electricity/magnetisim S f/x EB.
>While Wavelegnth is very verisitle, being able to blast just
>about every from of energy in the electromagnetic spectrum,
>ultimately, Electro-Magnetic King is doing more damage to 0-T--
>even though Wavelegnth can (seperately) duplicate King's S f/x.
>
I would rule that Wavelength could also get an Electricity/Magnetic
attack... I don't like this example, but that's Physics, not game reasons.
Okay, I assume WL has Variable SFX Adv that gives him *either* Electricity
*or* Magnetism... as a GM, I'd let him have both at the same time, as well.
Three separate things, there, each doing separate types of stuff.
> On the same token, Wavelegnth has Damage Reduction 75% to
>radiation. Beamer's Energy Blast simulates the explosive kinetic
>force and radiation of a nuclear blast. Bemer fires at Wavelegnth...
>...and ultimately does less damage, even though Wavelegnth
>only has a 2 PD.
>
Okay, Beamer actually probably has two Linked attacks, one that works v. ED
and one that works v. PD. You can't apply one attack to two defenses,
unless that's a Limitation on the attack. And if that's the case, WL would
take 75% less from the ED Radiation Blast, but full from the PD Kinetic
Blast. If it's all v. his ED, as one attack, I'd say Yes, he takes 75% less
damage from the whole thing.
> I know it eventually balances out... but I can see how it can get
>abusive.
>
I can also see the entire system getting abusive. Me and my boys keep a
tight rein on it. We don't like it when others abuse it, so why should we?
Write back if ya got anything further.
- Jerry
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 05:46:39 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Bibliography
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At 11:01 AM 11/6/97 -0500, Dave Mattingly wrote:
>How about the Cannonball Run movies?
>
>There were a couple of cool ideas there -- a car that uses infrared, so
>doesn't need to use headlights at night, a car with automatic changeable
>license plates (cosmetic shape shift only on plates?).
Good point! I'd completely slipped on those movies! I have the two
tricks you mention already in place, but anything where vehicle tricks are
pulled can work.
Hm... I wonder if I should include "Gumball Rally"?
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Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 18:47:02 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: RE: Multiple S f/x
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ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
>...so how would you work incindary rounds for War Wachine's BFG?
>
Well, it depends on what you really wanted them to do. Going from
Incendiary Rounds in Car Wars (the only stats I have to go by, and from
memory at that), they do Physical damage, and then have a chance to set the
target on fire. Two separate attacks.
RKA, Physical, or Physical EB, set to the DC level of the bullets, maybe -1
DC. Charges.
RKA, Energy, or Energy Blast, set at whatever fire damage level, Continuous,
Linked (to above), Continuing Charges, Uncontrolled.
Yes, this can get expensive. Here's an example.
.50 cal Machine Gun, Incendiary Rounds. (No OCV or Range +'s, Incendiaries
assumed to be less accurate than regular loads.) Bulky OAF.
2 1/2d6 RKA, Physical. 200 Charges. (No higher STUNx, Incendiaries
assumed to do less damage from physical blow.) 80 Active. 32 Real.
1d6 RKA, Energy. 200 Continuing Charges, 1 Turn. Linked to above.
Continuous, Uncontrolled. 60 Active. 20 Real.
140 Active, 52 Real. Not as bad as I thought.
Note that, due to mechanics, this would do more damage in the hands of a
character w/ higher SPD.
- Jerry
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 05:47:26 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Bibliography (long - sorry!)
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At 08:05 PM 11/6/97 +0200, Ori Folger wrote:
>At 05:31 06/11/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>>Games and Game Supplements:
>
>>Starjammers
>
>This reminds of what is, IMO, TSR's best setting - Spelljammer. There was a
>lot of detail concerning the space ships there, and the variety and methods
>of travel are really stunning. I mean, they had a ship which used huge
>space hamster running in a wheel as an energy source. If that's not worth
>mentioning, I don't know what is.
"Spelljammer" was what I meant, Ori. Thanks for being the first to give
me the correct world. :-]
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Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 05:55:05 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Bibliography (long - sorry!)
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At 02:10 PM 11/6/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>
>Great bibliography, Bob!
>
>I do have a few more suggestions for you. I may be trickling them to you a
>few at a time, but at least I'll alphabetize them this time. 8-<)>
Thanks, Bill! :-]
I've added everything except Spy Hunter. I'm going to put out a request
for good vehicle-oriented video games a little later.
A couple of specific comments:
>Books
>
>Dahl, Roald. The Great Glass Elevator
Just checking: Is Roald the correct first name, or was that a typo?
>TV
>Live Action:
>My Mother the Car
I looks really weird on my list having this sandwiched between "Mission
Genesis" and "Robocop."
>Salvage I (Andy Griffith builds a rocket in a junkyard.)
I don't even know why I missed this one. I loved that show!
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Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 05:58:06 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: vehicles within vehicles
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At 10:19 AM 11/6/97 -0600, Curt Hicks wrote:
>
>How about vehicles within vehicles ?
>
>I'm not thinking about vehicles that combine into uber-vehicles ala Voltron
>(or whatever). I'm thinking about things like the Enterprise's saucer
>that can detach and function separately. Or on the other extreme, how
>about Hobgoblin (from the animated Spiderman) has his 'regular' goblin
>glider, but can attach it to his plane sized goblin glider.
The Enterprise-D example is still a regular Combine.
As for the Hobgoblin's glider, whether that serves as a Combine, an OAF
enhancement, or a Multiform would depend on what the attachment can do by
itself (which I don't happen to recall right now).
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Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 09:05:17 -0500 (EST)
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Multiple simultaneous Sf/x
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Is it possible to have multiple simultaneous Sf/x?
An example I could think of would be incindary rounds,
which are both 'heat' and 'impact' damage in one neat little
package.
...or a character whose EB is a gravity/cold S/fx.
Tell me what you think.
-Jason
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 09:10:53 -0500 (EST)
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Re: TUSV; Really Cool Akira-type Bike
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Greetings,
I've seen Akira a few times and have the graphic novels...
Exactly what the hell can that really cool looking
red bike do, anyhow? Any Anime vechile that has 'lightning' spinning
with the tires _has_ to have something nasty going on for it.
Anyone want to take a shot at the stats?
-Jason
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 06:21:11 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Giant Monster/Demon Help
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At 03:49 PM 11/6/97 +0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
> I am running a magically influenced Champions campaign, and I have
>left a play session with a portal of darkness opening and a black tentacle
>snaking out to grab an NPC. The Players have no idea how to close the
>portal, or defeat what's coming through, or even what is coming through.
>(One of the characters might know, but not the current personality that is
>in control.)
> So, the beastie may just visit our earth. I'm torn between an
>Eldritch Horror (reminiscent of Cthulhu-like beasties) with some weird
>fear-based Powers, and a shape indescribable to man; an Elder Demon type of
>guy like out of D&D, in which case it might just be a straight fight; or
>possible something like Trigon the Terrible (out of the old New Teen Titans
>books), which means he would take awhile to take down, and might not be
>fighting directly.
Well, at least it's not Merry Andrew with the old "mechanical rubber
tentacle" gag...
> If anyone has any opinions on the differences between running these,
>advantages/disadvantages running one would have over running the other, and
>ways of writing them up, please let me know! Thanx!
If you have Horror Hero, that book has some good rules on things like
fear and stress for the Cthulhoid. That's the only thought I can come up
with right now.
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Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 06:25:34 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV
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At 03:28 PM 11/7/97 -0800, Rick Holding wrote:
>Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>> If an animal is pulling or carrying your vehicle, then that's how you
>> build it, paying points for the vehicle (with no Movement) and the animal
>> separately.
>
> Isn't a vehicle with no movement called a base....?
>
> Just as a base with movement is called a vehicle.
Not necessarily. It's a base if it's not *supposed* to move; it's a
drawn vehicle if it is supposed to move, but can't on its own.
A small single-wide manufactured home is a Base. Put wheels on it, and
it becomes a trailer home -- and a Vehicle.
A Base also doesn't have STR, DEX, or SPD, and uses a different chart
for Size.
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Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 06:34:22 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Bibliography (long - sorry!)
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At 03:51 PM 11/6/97 +0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>>Games and Game Supplements:
>I'm sure SJGames would be proud to know that it was 4/5 of your Games list!
Well, why not? They've done a good job so far.
Of course, I omitted all of the Hero books with good vehicle rules
(Robot Warriors, An Eye For An Eye, etc.) because I'm already incorporating
what's in them.
And conversely, why should they have all the fun?
>>Movies:
>There was one... "Those Magnificent Men and Their Fantastic Flying
>Machines"? I'm not sure if that is completely correct, but it's supposed to
>be a wonderful movie centered around a race between low-tech planes... some
>rather unusual designs, from the parts I saw of the film. Also includes a
>scene where the pilot has to turn control over to a female passenger, go out
>onto the wing, and remove his belt to repair a strut. He also managed to
>lose his pants by doing this... the female passenger's father was rather
>unhappy. (But it does show inflight repair...)
Wasn't this either a sequel to or sequelled by "Those Mangificent Men in
Their Jaunty Jalopies"? Or am I thinking of a totally different film?
>>Television:
>>
>>Live Action:
>>Knight Rider (and its sequel, Team Knight Rider)
>And Knight Rider 2000?
Oh yes, I forgot about that.
>>Men in Black: the Animated Series
>I assume you wanted to put this under "Animated?"
Oops. Yes.
>>Animated:
>>B.A.D.
>>Batman: The Animated Series
>Also possibly Superman: The Animated Series. I believe he has one or two
>vehicles around (I know they produced toys for some, anyway).
Good point. Yeah, he has this little space thingie he uses at times
(modified from the rocket that brought him to earth); and if nothing else,
Lobo's hawg ought to be worth something.
>>Robotech
>Glad to see you included this... I'm not sure what other Anime would be
>widely known by most cartoon viewers... Possibly G-Force, as they show that
>on Cartoon Network.
How could I *possibly* miss Robotech?
>>Thundercats
>Silverhawks? Produced by the same people (I'm pretty sure), same formula
>team like the 'cats. A group of people who were wounded terribly and
>rebuilt as cyborg protectors of space, they could each "fly" in space, and
>also had the same caliber of vehicles as the 'cats did.
Thanks; I've added both G-Force and Silverhawks.
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Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 06:36:08 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Bibliography (long - sorry!)
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At 03:35 PM 11/7/97 -0800, Rick Holding wrote:
> Don't forget Inspector Gadget!!!
Ah yes... "Go Go Gadget Helicopter!"
(Gadget himself is, of course, a cyborg, but that chopper is worth
something!)
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Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 19:37:23 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Apology
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I don't know why, but the list just spat out 3 messages that I sent
36 hours ago. My apologies for reposting them earlier.
- Jerry
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Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 06:41:32 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Bibliography (long - sorry!)
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At 06:42 AM 11/7/97 -0700, Curtis Gibson wrote:
>Bob Greenwade wrote:
> But I am going to go ahead, break down, and post my Bibliography as
>it
>> currently stands, including ideas you've given me, Bill. If anybody has a
>> problem with it, I apologize. If anybody has any suggested additions, I
>> welcome them (this being the whole purpose for the posting.
>>
>Books:
>Hardwired by Walter John Williams
>
>This is, in my mind, one of the archtypical 'plug into and live your
>vehicle' books ever written. Given, it's more cyberpunk than superhero.
Remember, Curtis, I'm trying to spread across the genres in this book.
Superhero, cyberpunk, space opera, pulp, superspy -- even fantasy and
Western -- all have their own contributions and cross-pollinations for what
can be done with a vehicle in adventure fiction.
Hardwired has been added to the list, and I may even try to read it for
ideas.
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Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 09:43:53 -0500 (EST)
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Aura Sight
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How would you work a power of Aura Sight (i.e. determines general
health, emotional state, and can act like a 'finger print' so even if
an individual is disguised, the character with Aura Sight can try
to identify him).
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:46:09 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Multiple simultaneous Sf/x
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On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
> Is it possible to have multiple simultaneous Sf/x?
> An example I could think of would be incindary rounds,
> which are both 'heat' and 'impact' damage in one neat little
> package.
> ...or a character whose EB is a gravity/cold S/fx.
> Tell me what you think.
> -Jason
Sure, why not? In fact, I'd interpret almost any Energy Blast applied vs.
ED which does Knockback as doing both heat and impact damage.
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 09:49:50 -0500 (EST)
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Bloody Nasty Powers
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Two odd powers:
The power to make someone spontaneously bleed.
The power to produce cardiopulmonary palpitations.
Note that armor would not have an effect on wither one of these
powers.
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:17:02 -0500 (EST)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Multiple simultaneous Sf/x
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>Is it possible to have multiple simultaneous Sf/x?
> An example I could think of would be incindary rounds,
>which are both 'heat' and 'impact' damage in one neat little
>package.
> ...or a character whose EB is a gravity/cold S/fx.
> Tell me what you think.
Combined SFX are just one SFX. For example, a high pressure stream of H20 is
both an impact attack and a water attack. Magical fire has both the
fire/heat SFX and the magic SFX. A incendiary round has the 'incendiary
round SFX', which might include several SFX. That's okay, so long as it
doesn't get out of hand ("It's the OMNI-effect! All SFX's in ONE!").
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You know, I feel pretty good."
"Yeah, me too. I've got a real positive attitude."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 07:59:11 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Reply-To: rook@infinex.com
CC: hero-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Aura Sight
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Look to Horror Hero page 43.
ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
> How would you work a power of Aura Sight (i.e. determines general
> health, emotional state, and can act like a 'finger print' so even if
> an individual is disguised, the character with Aura Sight can try
> to identify him).
--
Rook
Also known as Arcady on #herochat, #Fuzionchat, #gurps, #V&V,
and #SuperHeroChat in DALnet IRC
Super Hero Links Page:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 08:14:27 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Reply-To: rook@infinex.com
Subject: Re: Multiple simultaneous Sf/x
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The point is consistancy of combination.
I can tack as many things as I want into one description as long as they
always go together in the same
manner and I can find a way to justify it.
For instance one blast that is a combo of fire,earth,air, and water. If
it's ALWAYS this way, it's one
special effect. If I can switch it between fire, earth, air, and water
then it's 4 special effects and I need the
variable special effect advantage to do it.
ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
> Is it possible to have multiple simultaneous Sf/x?
> An example I could think of would be incindary rounds,
> which are both 'heat' and 'impact' damage in one neat little
> package.
> ...or a character whose EB is a gravity/cold S/fx.
> Tell me what you think.
> -Jason
--
Rook
Also known as Arcady on #herochat, #Fuzionchat, #gurps, #V&V,
and #SuperHeroChat in DALnet IRC
Super Hero Links Page:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:27:14 -0200 (EDT)
From: Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria <gevaerd@laranjeiras.lci.ufrj.br>
Subject: Shadow Man
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How would you create a hero whose powers is that he is something like a
shadow ?
He has no human form, just a humanoid shadow is his default form.
(Distinctive Feature)
He can alter his form so he can imitate another shadows and hide this
way (shapeshift ? strecthing ?).
He can also hide himself on other shadows, as he is only visible if some
kind of illumination hit him, doesn't need to be directly (Invisibility
only on shadows/dark, how much would be this limitation?)
He can walk through anywhere a shadow could... for example, through jail
bars. (some kind of desolidification ? or would it be included on
shapeshift ?)
Thank you.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 08:39:05 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Aura Sight
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At 09:43 AM 11/7/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
> How would you work a power of Aura Sight (i.e. determines general
>health, emotional state, and can act like a 'finger print' so even if
>an individual is disguised, the character with Aura Sight can try
>to identify him).
Detect Aura, Discriminatory, Ranged.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 08:40:46 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Bloody Nasty Powers
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At 09:49 AM 11/7/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
>Two odd powers:
> The power to make someone spontaneously bleed.
>
> The power to produce cardiopulmonary palpitations.
>
> Note that armor would not have an effect on wither one of these
>powers.
Spontaneous Bleeding: RKA, BOECV, Does BODY, Invisible Power Effects.
Palpitations, TK, BOECV, IPE.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 08:41:56 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Multiple simultaneous Sf/x
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At 09:05 AM 11/7/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
>Is it possible to have multiple simultaneous Sf/x?
> An example I could think of would be incindary rounds,
>which are both 'heat' and 'impact' damage in one neat little
>package.
> ...or a character whose EB is a gravity/cold S/fx.
I've considered this possibility in the past, and the best that I could
come up with was Reduced Penetration, where one of the two parts of the
attack works against PD and the other against ED.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
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Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 11:06:01 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Bloody Nasty Powers
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> The power to make someone spontaneously bleed.
>
> The power to produce cardiopulmonary palpitations.
>
> Note that armor would not have an effect on wither one of these
> powers.
Simple. RKA's NND that do BOD (+2 advantage). Define a defense
as something like "does not bleed", "non human physiology", maybe
powerdefense, maybe a high CON. The trick is getting enough defenses to
be "reasonably common"
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 11:09:01 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Multiple simultaneous Sf/x
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> I assume you're asking if it can affect more than one Vulnerability at a
> time? Yes. For the gravity cold attack, if the villain had both
> Vulnerabilities, he would take (x1 1/2)x2, for x3 (or whatever the values are).
Not quite. He'd take X2 damage. You got to use Champs math,
which says that two X1.5s make one X2.
> Of course, it is both these SFX, so if someone had Damage Reduction, only v.
> Cold, it would effect this attack fully. (Not just 1/2 the attack.)
Nope, I'd give the damage reduction, maybe at half level, but
probably not. Otherwise, what's to keep every attack being described as
two (or more) mixed SFX which would allow any specific defenses in the
campaign to be absolutely useless.
-Tim Gilberg
X-Sender: scm@mail.aci.net
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 09:16:34 -0800
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <shelley@mactyre.net>
Subject: Roald Dahl and using kids' fantasy books in games
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At 05:55 AM 11/7/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>Dahl, Roald. The Great Glass Elevator
>
> Just checking: Is Roald the correct first name, or was that a typo?
That's correct. In addition to the Willy Wonka books and James and the
Giant Peach, though, he wrote some terrific short stories ("The Wonderful
Story of Henry Sugar and Six More") which made a huge impression on me as a
child and really got me interested in science fiction/fantasy before I even
knew it was a genre. What I couldn't recover from my parents I've been
buying and rereading -- it's really fun to take a look at these stories
through the eyes of an adult, and there are great ideas in there for just
about any genre of campaign. I think that more than anyone else, the
Foxbat that I use in my world was heavily influenced by my perception of
Willy Wonka.
Does anyone else here remember and incorporate the fantasy they read as a
child into things they do today in their games? Before I ran my last
Fantasy Hero campaign (set in Teresa Edgarton's "Green Lion Trilogy" world,
a grown-up fantasy series I adored), I reread Lloyd Alexander's "Prydain
Chronicles" and Susan Cooper's "Dark is Rising" books, too. I haven't used
C.S. Lewis in a gaming setting; has anyone?
Of course you must also note that, I still think "Goodnight Moon" is a
classic, though I've yet to find a gaming application for it.)
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
www.mactyre.net
Your children will see the stars.
--Robert A. Heinlein
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:53:47 -0800
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger)
Subject: Re[2]: Aura Sight
Content-Description: cc:Mail note part
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You wrote:
Um, Rook, I don't have Horror Hero. I realize you may have
wanted to avoid putting published material on here, but could you
at least gimme a hint? Thanks.
Personally, I'd be willing to say Mental Awareness and a loopy
Detect.
-end quote-
I believe it's also in Ultimate Mentalist...bought as Detect
Auras, ranged, discriminatory...also gives a whole list of colors
and what emotions they signify.
Richard
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:13:29 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Reply-To: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Bibliography
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On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> At 02:10 PM 11/6/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
> >
> >Great bibliography, Bob!
> >
> >I do have a few more suggestions for you. I may be trickling them to you a
> >few at a time, but at least I'll alphabetize them this time. 8-<)>
>
> Thanks, Bill! :-]
> I've added everything except Spy Hunter. I'm going to put out a
reques t
> for good vehicle-oriented video games a little later.
Hmmm.... Maybe you could have a discography, with the Peter Gunn theme,
the song "Those Magnificent Men in Their Flying Machines," the Star Wars &
B5 themes, ...Sorry, I'm losing control here. 8-<)>
> A couple of specific comments:
>
> >Books
> >
> >Dahl, Roald. The Great Glass Elevator
>
> Just checking: Is Roald the correct first name, or was that a typo?
Yes, Roald is correct. Speaking of Roald Dahl, a giant peach held aloft by
a flock of seagulls has got to be one of the most bizarre beast-drawn
vehicles you're likely to run across.
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 11:19:16 -0700
From: Curtis Gibson <Mhoram@apeleon.net>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Bibliography (long - sorry!)
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> Remember, Curtis, I'm trying to spread across the genres in this book.
> Superhero, cyberpunk, space opera, pulp, superspy -- even fantasy and
> Western -- all have their own contributions and cross-pollinations for what
> can be done with a vehicle in adventure fiction.
Cool. That was one of my biggest dissapointments about TUSM. Both the
previous Ultimates (sorry Binder and Co. you have been eclipsed) had a
lot of cross genre application, but while I found a lot of usefull stuff
for supers in TUSM, there was very little I found for other genres.
> Hardwired has been added to the list, and I may even try to read it for
> ideas.
Another SF to consider... the Gap books by Stephen R Donaldson. Space
Opera, and so much of the action takes place shipboard, it could have
some nice information (if you have time...). One piece that parts of the
plot hung on... all ships were required to have a datacore; basically a
chip that recorded everything that the ship did, and all the messages
sent and recieved. It couldn't be destroyed, or edited. The perfect
record of a ships activities.
Eiditic Memory - Always on 8)
--
-Mhoram
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your
two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Multiple recipients of Hero\" <hero-l@october.com&>
\"Opal\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 97 18:54:05
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: And now for guns!
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On 06 Nov 97 00:14:02 GMT, Opal wrote:
>
>
> h > From: John Stefanski <jstefanski@internetMCI.com>
> h > How do you address the Player Character who built his Champions
> h > character
> h > as a hand to hand combatant but constantly picks up dropped (or
> h > grabbed)
> h > guns from the enemy agents to get a ranged attack. These weapons are
> h > also
> h > useful ones and should be purchased through experience points.
>If he picks up an OAF and uses it in that fight, fine. That's
>just one of the drawbacks of a universal OAF. If he retains
>such foci and uses them on a regular basis, he should pay for
>them. Just withold his exp from any game where he uses a
>stollen focus (that he's holding long-term) to pay for that
>focus.
Yes. He's intelligently using the OAF disadvantage. Shock, horror: an
intelligent player! This is why the OAF disadvantage is worth so much.
Just remember, turnabout is fair play.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 97 18:54:05
X-To: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org&> "Multiple recipients of Hero" <hero-l@october.com&> "Opal" <Opal@october.com>
Subject: Re: And now for guns!
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On 06 Nov 97 00:14:02 GMT, Opal wrote:
>
>
> h > From: John Stefanski <jstefanski@internetMCI.com>
> h > How do you address the Player Character who built his Champions
> h > character
> h > as a hand to hand combatant but constantly picks up dropped (or
> h > grabbed)
> h > guns from the enemy agents to get a ranged attack. These weapons are
> h > also
> h > useful ones and should be purchased through experience points.
>If he picks up an OAF and uses it in that fight, fine. That's
>just one of the drawbacks of a universal OAF. If he retains
>such foci and uses them on a regular basis, he should pay for
>them. Just withold his exp from any game where he uses a
>stollen focus (that he's holding long-term) to pay for that
>focus.
Yes. He's intelligently using the OAF disadvantage. Shock, horror: an
intelligent player! This is why the OAF disadvantage is worth so much.
Just remember, turnabout is fair play.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:01:58 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Reply-To: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Roald Dahl and using kids' fantasy books in games
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On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Shelley Chrystal Mactyre wrote:
> Does anyone else here remember and incorporate the fantasy they read as a
> child into things they do today in their games? Before I ran my last
> Fantasy Hero campaign (set in Teresa Edgarton's "Green Lion Trilogy" world,
> a grown-up fantasy series I adored), I reread Lloyd Alexander's "Prydain
> Chronicles" and Susan Cooper's "Dark is Rising" books, too. I haven't used
> C.S. Lewis in a gaming setting; has anyone?
I've frequently thought of Narnia in running fantasy games. The only
concrete example of it's influence I can think of at the moment is a D&D
game where a good cleric worshipped an (unknown to him) evil god, inspired
by the good worshippers of Tesh in the final book of the series. (Aslan,
the good lion/god, tells them he accepted their worship as that of him;
that they used the name of the evil god was unimportant.)
Though I generally prefer to run games set in worlds of my own creation,
I'm seriously considering set a campaign in the world of Philip
Pullman's *The Golden Compass*. This book and its sequel *The Subtle
Knife* have frequently been labelled as children's fiction, but a lot of
adults are discovering it to be a wonderful fantasy as well. The series
starts in an alternate world's version of Oxford among a group of
"experimental theologians"; everyone in this world possesses a daemon (a
sort of familiar reflective of their own psyche.) The books soon begin to
echo Paradise Lost and get into parallel worlds, dark matter, and all
sorts of cool stuff. I'm eagerly awaiting the third volume of the trilogy.
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 97 19:06:55
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Aura Sight
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On Fri, 07 Nov 1997 09:43:53 -0500 (EST), ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
> How would you work a power of Aura Sight (i.e. determines general
>health, emotional state, and can act like a 'finger print' so even if
>an individual is disguised, the character with Aura Sight can try
>to identify him).
Interesting...
This is several powers.
The 'mental state is Empathy (Telepathy, Read only (-1))
The 'Identify Individual' would be N-Ray Vision of some description
with a minus of the amount by which the opponent made their relevant
skill. Example: in one episode, Superman could tell that Lois Lane was
an imposter only by the fact that she wore the wrong lipstick.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 97 19:12:27
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV
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On Wed, 05 Nov 1997 13:46:13 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 07:52 PM 11/5/97, qts wrote:
>>> And now here's the kicker: If there's a vehicle that doesn't need
>>>refueling in a campaign where this Fuel Dependence is used, then that
>>>vehicle takes Life Support vs needing fuel (the equivalent of Does Not Eat
>>>for regular characters).
>>
>>I have to confess to not understanding this.
>
> I'm not sure which part you're not understanding.
> I have to assume, though, that you understand my reference to a Fuel
>Dependence (a variation on Dependence that simply disables the craft rahter
>than damaging it), because you responded to it before without a question.
> Fuel is like a vehicle's food, so my thought is that a vehicle normally
>needs fuel to continue running. The ability to not need fuel would be the
>equivalent of the ability to not need food in an organic being, which is
>represented in the Hero System with Life Support vs needing to eat (part of
>the element to eat, sleep, or excrete). A vehicle that does not need fuel
>in a campaign that uses a 0-value Fuel Dependence as the default therefore
>needs this form of Life Support.
Gotcha. A very neat mechanism.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
From: "VANSICKLE, James" <jvansickle@shl.com>
Subject: RE: Shadow Man
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:07:06 -0600
Encoding: 42 TEXT
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Also, take a look at Shadow in the City (I think that is the title). It
has a character called Whisper. Powers seemed to be based on same idea.
It may point you in the direction you are looking for.
>----------
>From: Jeremiah Driscoll[SMTP:jdriscol@vt.edu]
>Sent: Friday, November 07, 1997 1:08 PM
>To: champ-l@omg.org
>Subject: Re: Shadow Man
>
>At 02:27 PM 11/7/97 -0200, Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria wrote:
>> How would you create a hero whose powers is that he is something like a
>>shadow ?
>> He has no human form, just a humanoid shadow is his default form.
>>(Distinctive Feature)
>> He can alter his form so he can imitate another shadows and hide this
>>way (shapeshift ? strecthing ?).
>> He can also hide himself on other shadows, as he is only visible if some
>>kind of illumination hit him, doesn't need to be directly (Invisibility
>>only on shadows/dark, how much would be this limitation?)
>> He can walk through anywhere a shadow could... for example, through jail
>>bars. (some kind of desolidification ? or would it be included on
>>shapeshift ?)
>>
>Okay, Obsidian (DC Comics), previously of Infinity INC, formerly of Justice
>League America, brother to Jade and son to the Golden Age Green Lantern,
>Alan Scott, now the Sentinel. Yeah, him. He could do this, but his default
>form was human. As I see it...
>Distinctive Features, Invisibility (Only in Shadows, -1/2), Desolidification
>(Not through solid objects, -1/2). You could give him Shapeshift, although
>Stretching would be more appropriate, and maybe a level or two of Growth or
>Shrinking.
>Shapeshift wouldn't usually let you get through cell doors and bars... The
>Desolidification would. Even though it says not through solid objects, you
>could modify it slightly, so he could go through windows and cracks, but
>they have to be *roughly* large enough for him.
>GURPS Supers wrote up a specific power for this. If you have the book,
>check it out, too. (I left my copy at home. D'oh!)
>
>- Jerry
>
>
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Multiple simultaneous Sf/x
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>>>>> "AAM" == ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> writes:
AAM> Is it possible to have multiple simultaneous Sf/x?
Well, a combination of special effects is yet another special effect, so
why not? The difference is the degree of complexity. The thing to
remember is that while you may be able to affect more vulnerabilities or
susceptabilities, more things which affect special effects will affect you.
To wit, say you have a character that can magically[1] create a gout of
fire. A character with 'Vulnerability x1.5: magic' would take x1.5 damage.
Likewise, a character with 'Vulnerability x1.5: fire' would take x1.5
damage. But either 'Dispell vs. magic' or 'Dispell vs. fire' will
neutralize the power if a high enough total is rolled.
[1] In a campaign where "magic" qualifies as a special effect. In most
fantasy games, "magic" does not qualify as a special effect as far as game
mechanics go, because practically all uses of powers is "magic".
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Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:18:58 -0600 (CST)
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From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Shields and Armor...
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Ok, let's open up another can or two of worms here.
Ok, first off, I have a guy who has a shield, he wants to be able to block
with it, hit someone with it, and throw it. Ok, the first two are simple.
Now let's say he throws it. If we put all three in the multipower OAF, the
first one is armor, then hth, and even throwing it can be an EB, but my
question comes here it is one recoverable recharge, would you add on some
sort of limitation that the other slots can't be used until it is recovered?
How much would you give this limitation? Any other shield ideas?
Ok, next guy, he carries around a Stone IIF that can turn into Armor OIF.
Note: Complete change, can't have armor without stone and can't have stone
without Armor. With this in mind. Would you make the Stone be Instant
Change IIF only to Armor? Or can you think of another way to handle this?
Well, take it easy and talk at you later.
Sparx
====================================================
I'll fire aimlessly if you don't come out!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 13:02:58 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Bibliography
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At 01:13 PM 11/7/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>Hmmm.... Maybe you could have a discography, with the Peter Gunn theme,
>the song "Those Magnificent Men in Their Flying Machines," the Star Wars &
>B5 themes, ...Sorry, I'm losing control here. 8-<)>
That idea's not as outlandish as it may seem... :-]
>Yes, Roald is correct. Speaking of Roald Dahl, a giant peach held aloft by
>a flock of seagulls has got to be one of the most bizarre beast-drawn
>vehicles you're likely to run across.
That occurred to me to when I saw Shelley's mention of James and the
Giant Peach, which has now been added to both the Books and the Movies.
---
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Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 13:05:26 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Bibliography (long - sorry!)
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At 11:44 AM 11/7/97 +0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>>>>Games and Game Supplements:
>>>I'm sure SJGames would be proud to know that it was 4/5 of your Games list!
>>
>> Well, why not? They've done a good job so far.
>It's unfortunate that your manuscript is getting done before GURPS Low-Tech
>comes out. S John Ross said he's including chariots and whatnot in it...
>which is exactly what we had discussed in another thread. I'll ask him if I
>can peek. But he hasn't even turned in his manuscript, so he's liable to be
>a little stingy. (And I can't get ahold of the playtest copies, as I'm not
>on IO.)
The really sad part is that I'm not sure I'll be able to get my own copy
of GURPS Vehicles before I send the manuscript to Bruce.
>> Of course, I omitted all of the Hero books with good vehicle rules
>>(Robot Warriors, An Eye For An Eye, etc.) because I'm already incorporating
>>what's in them.
>But I assume a reference in the front, right?
Oh, absolutely.
>> And conversely, why should they have all the fun?
>They shouldn't. I thought that's why you were doing this book? : )
Bingo! :-]
>>
>>>>Movies:
>>>There was one... "Those Magnificent Men and Their Fantastic Flying
>>>Machines"? I'm not sure...
>
>> Wasn't this either a sequel to or sequelled by "Those Mangificent Men in
>>Their Jaunty Jalopies"? Or am I thinking of a totally different film?
>>
>Um, could be. I'll try and figure it out, and get back to you. Probably
>not 'til after Turkey Day, tho.
I'll look around too.
>>>>Television:
>>>>
>>>>Live Action:
>>>>Knight Rider (and its sequel, Team Knight Rider)
>>>And Knight Rider 2000?
>>
>> Oh yes, I forgot about that.
>>
>Yeah, well, who wouldn't.
I shouldn't've. It has James Doohan's best cameo ever (IMO).
---
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 13:08:24 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Bibliography (long - sorry!)
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At 11:19 AM 11/7/97 -0700, Curtis Gibson wrote:
>Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>>
>> Remember, Curtis, I'm trying to spread across the genres in this book.
>> Superhero, cyberpunk, space opera, pulp, superspy -- even fantasy and
>> Western -- all have their own contributions and cross-pollinations for what
>> can be done with a vehicle in adventure fiction.
>
>Cool. That was one of my biggest dissapointments about TUSM. Both the
>previous Ultimates (sorry Binder and Co. you have been eclipsed) had a
>lot of cross genre application, but while I found a lot of usefull stuff
>for supers in TUSM, there was very little I found for other genres.
I'd understood that there was also stuff for playing high-powered mages
in Fantasy Hero games. Bummer; the Ultimate books are supposed to be as
cross-genre as each can be!
>Another SF to consider... the Gap books by Stephen R Donaldson. Space
>Opera, and so much of the action takes place shipboard, it could have
>some nice information (if you have time...). One piece that parts of the
>plot hung on... all ships were required to have a datacore; basically a
>chip that recorded everything that the ship did, and all the messages
>sent and recieved. It couldn't be destroyed, or edited. The perfect
>record of a ships activities.
>
>Eiditic Memory - Always on 8)
Eidetic Memory is already Always On; but I think I'd give it a few
levels of Difficult to Dispel, and put it in an Unbreakable IIF.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Shields and Armor...
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>>>>> "S" == Sparx <psansone@i1.net> writes:
S> Ok, first off, I have a guy who has a shield, he wants to be able to
S> block with it,
DCV skill levels.
S> hit someone with it,
HA.
S> and throw it.
EB.
Two-slot multipower, one with the skill levels and HA, the other with the
EB.
S> Ok, next guy, he carries around a Stone IIF that can turn into Armor
S> OIF.
Um... what does the rock do, other than turn into Armor? Because if that
is all it does, it is a special effect, not a Focus.
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Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 17:28:55 -0500 (EST)
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Re: RE: Shields and Armor...
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>The Shield
I think the powers you're looking for are best designed as
Armor with activation or Missle Reflection for the defensive parts.
There's a Adv. out there that applies to HtH weapons: 'Can be thrown'
(Not sure if that's HERO cannon or house rules). If you go the EB
route, you should buy: 'Range Limited by STR.'
As to the recoverable charge idea, I digress. Although an
interesting way to deal with the 'recovery' would be to 'bounce' the
shot just right and...
Newbies Unite!
Jason Sullivan
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 17:45:09 -0500 (EST)
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Stuff that breaks. Cool.
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The nefarious assassin Papercut, a mutant with the ability to make
any object a razor sharp weapon, has just assinated the Russian embassador
Hoseph Ivanovich outside the UN with a credit card. American Shield (your
all American shield weilding hero) has been called on the scene.
American Shield tracks Papercut down to the Daily Times, where
the plucky Jimmy Fitspatrick, kid photographer, gives ol' A.S. the scoop
on Papercut's hiding place. After steathily searching, ream after ream,
American Shield and Papercut start to fight.
American Shield uses his shield to devend himself against a
vicious sports page attack. Let us assume A.S. Shield is not made of
Ubatainium or any other near-indestructable experimental metal.
A.S. Shield would be destroyed if it took sufficent damage. Would
the 'extra' damage carry over on to A.S.? Could Papercut target
a weapon, like a gun or sword, in this way? Could he use his
power to sever a limb?
...and would papercut have OAF if he could use just about anything
near two dimensional for his KA?
Ever plucky guy who asks too many questions and has 1 Champions book,
Jason Sullivan
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 17:50:53 -0500 (EST)
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Dear ChampionPersons
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Dear ChampionPersons,
I noticed under the Senses section of my 4th edition Champions
Deluxe, under the Detect heading, it mentions modifiers such as
'Discriminatory, Ranged, Parabolic, and 360 degrees,' yet in the above
paragraphs (where Discriminatory, Ranged, and 360 degrees) are described,
there's no mention of Parabolic. Could you please help me?
Sincerely,
Joe 'the Freshman' Smith
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 15:28:16 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: TUSV
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
> If an animal is pulling or carrying your vehicle, then that's how you
> build it, paying points for the vehicle (with no Movement) and the animal
> separately.
Isn't a vehicle with no movement called a base....?
Just as a base with movement is called a vehicle.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 15:35:04 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Bibliography (long - sorry!)
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
<< Megalist snipped>>
> Animated:
> B.A.D.
> Batman: The Animated Series
> Biker Mice from Mars
> Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventures
> Captain Simian and the Space Monkeys
> Centurions
> Chip ‘n' Dale's Rescue Rangers
> Darkwing Duck
> Exo-Squad
> The Fantastic Four
> Fantastic Journey
> Flash Gordon
> G.I. Joe
> Go-Bots
> He-Man and the Masters of the Universe
> Iron Man (he does use vehicles, besides his armor)
> The Jetsons
> Jonny Quest
> King Arthur and the Knights of Justice (though not motorized, their
> vehicles are very combat-effective)
> Men In Black
> Mighty Ducks
> Mighty Orbots
> Pole Position
> Real Ghostbusters
> Road Rovers
> Robocop
> Robotech
> Skysurfer Strike Force
> Space Ghost
> Speed Buggy
> Speed Racer
> Spider-Man (he doesn't use vehicles, but some of his foes do)
> Street Sharks
> SWAT Cats
> Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles
> Teen Turbo
> Thunderbirds
> Thundercats
> The Tick (a couple of the villains have interesting vehicles)
> Tom Slick (part of the George of the Jungle rotation)
> Transformers
> Ultra Force
> Voltron (all three sets)
> Wacky Races
> Where On Earth is Carmen Sandiego? (the animated version, not the game show)
> The Why Why Family
> X-Men
Don't forget Inspector Gadget!!!
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 18:58:07 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: TUSV: Bibliography (long - sorry!)
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> I'd understood that there was also stuff for playing high-powered mages
> in Fantasy Hero games. Bummer; the Ultimate books are supposed to be as
> cross-genre as each can be!
Yes, but TUSM was a special case. It mentioned some of the
specifics of magic, but pointed out how differently magic is handled in
Supers Level literature. (It is similar in High Powered Fantasy). The
other genre's uses of magic had largely been covered by Mystic Masters
(more "straight-up"). I would have liked to see some cyberpunkish street
magic, but otherwise I was pleased.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 19:01:02 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Multiple simultaneous Sf/x
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> > Not quite. He'd take X2 damage. You got to use Champs math,
> >which says that two X1.5s make one X2.
> >
> Um, actually, I guess I wasn't clear. VULN: x1 1/2 from Cold. VULN: x2
> from Gravity. Heavy Ice (sfx: gravity and cold) would do 3x damage.
Hmmm. I'll take a look, but I though this would go to X2.5. I
thought it worked like power modifiers -- add the multipliers (past one)
for the total. Two 1.5* would be 2. A 2 and a 1.5 would be 2.5. Two 2*
would be 3. Anyone sure on this?
> > Nope, I'd give the damage reduction, maybe at half level, but
> >probably not. Otherwise, what's to keep every attack being described as
> >two (or more) mixed SFX which would allow any specific defenses in the
> >campaign to be absolutely useless.
> >
> Man, I'm sorry, I guess I was really unclear. I meant that the Damage
> Reduction would affect (not effect) the *attack* fully... It would work,
> and not even at half level. Just what you said. Anything else would be
> kinda unbalancing.
Yup. It might not make perfect sense, but it's balanced, dammit.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 20:59:32 -0500 (EST)
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: General Questions (1-9)
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Here are some requests:
1) Does anyone here have rules for converting Villians &
Vigilantes characters to Champions 4th edition stats?
(My seemingly endless search for the Badger stastics
that were nestled in a rare 80's gaming tome actually
bore fruit! Uf da!)
2) Has anyone here used a Life/Luck/Fate/Force/Karma/Plot/etc.
point system as a house rule in addition to the normal
Hero system? Games like Shadowrun, Marvel, Star Wars, Torg,
Master Book, Ghostbusters, Cyberpunk, and Noir all use some
form or another of point based pay-as-you-play fate that
you can manipulate dice rolls with. If you have used this,
or have a semblance of what I'm talking about, how does
it function mechanically in play?
Also, if you've ever played Torg or Master Book, the games
came with these nifty little plot cards that could
manipulate the course of the adventure. The Master Deck
looks like a neat-o game mechanic. I was wondering
how do you think you could modify the deck to work in
Champions? Do you think it would work well?
3) A standard New York subway car has been hijacked by highly
trained terrorists. The subway car is racing out of control
at maxium speed. The terrorists are estimated to run at about
three per car. They are holding the hostages at bay with automatic
weapons, and have no qualms about killing anyone who decides to get
'heroic.' Each subway car has a high grade plasticine explosive
set to detonate in thirty minutes. The explosives also have a
premptive detonation if the master mind villian's finger leaves
the gripped detonation device. The terrorists have jammed the
controls of the subway cars, and they will crash in @ forty-
five minutes. You are an 80 point hero with up to 120 points
of disadvantages. You automatically have a NCM, and are allowed
to choose up to 25 points of additional mundane equipment.
The world itself is dark and gritty gothic punk with no 'super-
heroes' per se. (Rare case scenerios: psychics, subtle occultists
and gun toting vigilantes exist, but in praise of the genre, the
GM is being a real tight-ass about playing characters along this
vein. Urban concepts are very readily accepted).
For some reason, you have to deal with this situation.
Who are you and what do you do?
What do you do?
Anyone crazy enough to actually construct this scenerio will be
given extra points.
4) Computers in Champions. C:/HELP!/
5) One word: Urotsakidoji
6) What two comic books and/or graphic novels have inspired you
most?
7) After my thermonuke and black holl post raised heck....
Did I miss any weapons or forces of mass destruction?
8) Load bearing structures in Champions. How much can a structure
hold? How much damage does 'weight' do? (Important for bricks
who try to sit in wooden chairs or Powerguy, who wants to rest
a plane on top of a ferris wheel).
9) Would you laugh at me if I set up a web page of real people dressed
as super heroes of their own design?
(Clovis... IN TIGHTS!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA...)
The only HERO system book I own is Champions,
Jason 'Newbie/Freshman' Sullivan
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Aura Sight
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 18:10:21 -0800
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On Friday, November 07, 1997 9:39 AM, Richard G Schwerdtfeger wrote:
> You wrote:
>
> Um, Rook, I don't have Horror Hero. I realize you may have
> wanted to avoid putting published material on here, but could
you
> at least gimme a hint? Thanks.
> Personally, I'd be willing to say Mental Awareness and a loopy
> Detect.
>
> -end quote-
>
> I believe it's also in Ultimate Mentalist...bought as Detect
> Auras, ranged, discriminatory...also gives a whole list of
colors
> and what emotions they signify.
I don't know about those, but it is found in the Hero System Almanac
I. Aura Vision is defined as he described above.
Some ideas for colors from the book, off the top of my head,
unfortunately.
Pink- Health
Blue- Kindness
Red- Passion
Dark Red- Hate
Black- Illness or evil
Filksinger
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 12:41:00 +1000
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Subject: Re: General Questions (1-9)
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At 08:59 PM 11/7/97 -0500, you wrote:
> 2) Has anyone here used a Life/Luck/Fate/Force/Karma/Plot/etc.
> point system as a house rule in addition to the normal
> Hero system? Games like Shadowrun, Marvel, Star Wars, Torg,
> Master Book, Ghostbusters, Cyberpunk, and Noir all use some
> form or another of point based pay-as-you-play fate that
> you can manipulate dice rolls with. If you have used this,
> or have a semblance of what I'm talking about, how does
> it function mechanically in play?
> Also, if you've ever played Torg or Master Book, the games
> came with these nifty little plot cards that could
> manipulate the course of the adventure. The Master Deck
> looks like a neat-o game mechanic. I was wondering
> how do you think you could modify the deck to work in
> Champions? Do you think it would work well?
>
try putting psyc lims and minor powers and talents on cards, and let the
pc's figure out the sfx. . . .could be a power surge or a hunted or just good/bad
luck or improvisation. . .or even picking up a weapon fer a while *eg*
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 22:37:25 -0500 (EST)
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Minatures
X-VMS-To: IN%"champ-l@omg.org"
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
When using minatures, using the Area of Effect rules, how many
hexes up is an Area of effect? What about an explosion?
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 20:58:55 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Reply-To: rook@infinex.com
Subject: Inspirations for a game world (was: fantasy books in games)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> > Does anyone else here remember and incorporate the fantasy they read as a
> > child into things they do today in their games? Before I ran my last
> > Fantasy Hero campaign (set in Teresa Edgarton's "Green Lion Trilogy" world,
> > a grown-up fantasy series I adored), I reread Lloyd Alexander's "Prydain
> > Chronicles" and Susan Cooper's "Dark is Rising" books, too. I haven't used
> > C.S. Lewis in a gaming setting; has anyone?
>
> I've frequently thought of Narnia in running fantasy games. The only
I never use anything directly, but I do use it for inspiration.
For instance, the inspiration for my Fantasy World is:
A song from the 60's called Brandy (about a waitress in a sailor's bar)
The goblin set of the old SJG Cardboard Figures sets
Haiyo Miyazaki's "Laputa" movie
Haiyo Miyazaki's "Nausicaa" movie
The people of the Amazon Rainforest
The Klingons as shown in ST:Next Gen
The Apache people during Geronimo's time
Hitler and Nazi Germany
Akira Kurosawa's "Seven Samuraii" movie
My studies of buddhism, Shinto, Taoism, and Wicca.
Plus a few fairy tales and random bits of fantasy I've read in my life.
I think that's about the full list.
--
Rook
Also known as Arcady on #herochat, #Fuzionchat, #gurps, #V&V,
and #SuperHeroChat in DALnet IRC
Super Hero Links Page:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 21:28:46 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Reply-To: rook@infinex.com
CC: hero-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Shields and Armor...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Page 203 of the BBB and 100 of Fantasy Hero answers this one.
"A shield adds to the wielders DCV when it is in his off hand. When you do a
Block the shield adds to the OCV for the block.
Small Shield +1 DCV 2kg. 5 Str Min
Norm Shield +2 DCV 4kg. 13 Str Min
Large Shield +3 DCV 7kg. 18 Str Min
Page 206 of the BBB then shows how these are built. The same rules could be used
at higher point levels
to build a Super Shield.
Sparx wrote:
> Ok, let's open up another can or two of worms here.
>
> Ok, first off, I have a guy who has a shield, he wants to be able to block
> with it, hit someone with it, and throw it. Ok, the first two are simple.
> Now let's say he throws it. If we put all three in the multipower OAF, the
> first one is armor, then hth, and even throwing it can be an EB, but my
> question comes here it is one recoverable recharge, would you add on some
> sort of limitation that the other slots can't be used until it is recovered?
> How much would you give this limitation? Any other shield ideas?
>
> Ok, next guy, he carries around a Stone IIF that can turn into Armor OIF.
> Note: Complete change, can't have armor without stone and can't have stone
> without Armor. With this in mind. Would you make the Stone be Instant
> Change IIF only to Armor? Or can you think of another way to handle this?
> Well, take it easy and talk at you later.
>
> Sparx
>
> ====================================================
> I'll fire aimlessly if you don't come out!
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
--
Rook
Also known as Arcady on #herochat, #Fuzionchat, #gurps, #V&V,
and #SuperHeroChat in DALnet IRC
Super Hero Links Page:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 00:47:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Roald Dahl and using kids' fantasy books in games
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Shelley Chrystal Mactyre wrote:
> Does anyone else here remember and incorporate the fantasy they read as a
> child into things they do today in their games? Before I ran my last
> Fantasy Hero campaign (set in Teresa Edgarton's "Green Lion Trilogy" world,
> a grown-up fantasy series I adored), I reread Lloyd Alexander's "Prydain
> Chronicles" and Susan Cooper's "Dark is Rising" books, too. I haven't used
> C.S. Lewis in a gaming setting; has anyone?
At one point I borrowed elements of "The Dark is Rising" for a Champions
adventure set in England. I think I was considering using bits of Narnia
once, a long time ago, but I can't remember.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 02:32:13 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: General Questions (1-9)
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At 08:59 PM 11/7/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
> Also, if you've ever played Torg or Master Book, the games
> came with these nifty little plot cards that could
> manipulate the course of the adventure. The Master Deck
> looks like a neat-o game mechanic. I was wondering
> how do you think you could modify the deck to work in
> Champions? Do you think it would work well?
I've already written rules for using the TORG Plot Deck with DC Heroes; I'm
currently in the process of converting them for use to Champions. It's not
as easy as the former, since Champs' mechanics don't resemble TORG's quite
so much as DCH's did.
> 5) One word: Urotsakidoji
Can you *say* that on a gaming list? :]
> 6) What two comic books and/or graphic novels have inspired you
> most?
Tough call, but I'd have to say John Ostrander's SUICIDE SQUAD after the
reorganization, and Peter David's run on THE INCREDIBLE HULK during the
Pantheon cycle. If you meant single issues, I'm really in trouble. :]
> 7) After my thermonuke and black holl post raised heck....
> Did I miss any weapons or forces of mass destruction?
Well, there's always the Tesla resonance hammer.
> 8) Load bearing structures in Champions. How much can a structure
> hold? How much damage does 'weight' do? (Important for bricks
> who try to sit in wooden chairs or Powerguy, who wants to rest
> a plane on top of a ferris wheel).
GM's discretion, unfortunately. It's for this reason I've wished sometimes
the HERO system had included STR with bases.
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 02:32:16 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: General Questions (# 3)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 07:09 AM 11/8/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> A regular desktop computer, not designed to do any physical
>interactions, can get by just fine with a DEX of 10.
Problem: since DEX determines initiative for all things, this means it's
impossible to write a video game that can beat anyone who's slightly better
than average. :/
> Computers are bought at the same 5:1 rate as Vehicles and Followers.
It's not very well lined out, but technically computers are bought AS Followers.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 00:40:46 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Aura Sight
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Filksinger wrote:
>
> On Friday, November 07, 1997 9:39 AM, Richard G Schwerdtfeger wrote:
>
> > You wrote:
> >
> > Um, Rook, I don't have Horror Hero. I realize you may have
> > wanted to avoid putting published material on here, but could
> you
> > at least gimme a hint? Thanks.
> > Personally, I'd be willing to say Mental Awareness and a loopy
> > Detect.
> >
> > -end quote-
> >
> > I believe it's also in Ultimate Mentalist...bought as Detect
> > Auras, ranged, discriminatory...also gives a whole list of
> colors
> > and what emotions they signify.
>
> I don't know about those, but it is found in the Hero System Almanac
> I. Aura Vision is defined as he described above.
>
> Some ideas for colors from the book, off the top of my head,
> unfortunately.
>
> Pink- Health
> Blue- Kindness
> Red- Passion
> Dark Red- Hate
> Black- Illness or evil
>
> Filksinger
Yes, Aura Vision was originally introduced into the Hero System
through "Justice Incorporated", and is indeed in the Hero System
Almanac. I won't be home for a couple of days, but if the question has
not been concretely answered by Monday, I'll post the actual quote if
someone else doesn't do it first.
--
"All of science, all of the vastness of knowledge
of mankind boils down to two things. We look at
stuff and make stuff up. That's it. That's Everything."
-Capt. Spith
Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 00:47:57 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Dear ChampionPersons
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>
> ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
> > I noticed under the Senses section of my 4th edition Champions
> >Deluxe, under the Detect heading, it mentions modifiers such as
> >'Discriminatory, Ranged, Parabolic, and 360 degrees,' yet in the above
> >paragraphs (where Discriminatory, Ranged, and 360 degrees) are described,
> >there's no mention of Parabolic. Could you please help me?
>
> Well, my softcover non-Deluxe BBB doesn't have this ability either, nor the
> reference. But my "Revised Edition" Champions book has Parabolic Hearing:
> "Allows a character to define a point at a distance and hear as if the point
> were 1/5 the distance away. Parabolic Hearing may be bought more than once
> (the second time, distance is 1/25, third time distance is 1/125, etc.).
> Cost = 15 pts."
> It think this became absorbed by Telescopic when it was extended to any sense...
That sounds like 3rd edition... I don't have my book with me, but I
believe Parabolic Hearing and some other senses from 3rd and earlier
editions were blanketed into Spatial Awareness in 4th edition. Anything
which gives you full OCV and DCV vs. opponents and lets you navigate
succesfully without sight generally will fall under the heading Spatial
Awareness.
>
> - Jerry, who wonders why X-ray Vision was 20 pt. and N-ray Vision was 30...
> and why Telescopic Vision didn't help with Sight Perception Roll Modifier.
> Where's Microscopic Vision?
--
"All of science, all of the vastness of knowledge
of mankind boils down to two things. We look at
stuff and make stuff up. That's it. That's Everything."
-Capt. Spith
Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 01:03:31 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Inspirations for a game world (was: fantasy books in games)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Rook wrote:
>
> > > Does anyone else here remember and incorporate the fantasy they read as a
> > > child into things they do today in their games? Before I ran my last
> > > Fantasy Hero campaign (set in Teresa Edgarton's "Green Lion Trilogy" world,
> > > a grown-up fantasy series I adored), I reread Lloyd Alexander's "Prydain
> > > Chronicles" and Susan Cooper's "Dark is Rising" books, too. I haven't used
> > > C.S. Lewis in a gaming setting; has anyone?
> >
> > I've frequently thought of Narnia in running fantasy games. The only
>
> I never use anything directly, but I do use it for inspiration.
>
> For instance, the inspiration for my Fantasy World is:
>
> A song from the 60's called Brandy (about a waitress in a sailor's bar)
> The goblin set of the old SJG Cardboard Figures sets
> Haiyo Miyazaki's "Laputa" movie
> Haiyo Miyazaki's "Nausicaa" movie
> The people of the Amazon Rainforest
> The Klingons as shown in ST:Next Gen
> The Apache people during Geronimo's time
> Hitler and Nazi Germany
> Akira Kurosawa's "Seven Samuraii" movie
> My studies of buddhism, Shinto, Taoism, and Wicca.
> Plus a few fairy tales and random bits of fantasy I've read in my life.
>
> I think that's about the full list.
When I build a world, any and all input from around me goes into the
'Making Of'....
I have influences from;
Island of Dr. Moreau
Thundercats
Gilligan's Island
Various Champions Supplements
They Might Be Giants (Musical Group)
Cherry Poppin' Daddies (another musical Group)
Characters based on the players
Comic Books (duh!....)
Piers Anthony (NOT Xanth, thank you....)
Anne Rice
Material from my OLD games
Mythology
And probably other stuff. I even have a paranormal group based on the
Spanish Inquisition - a marriage between the historical version and
Monty Python's version.
Some sources give me a name to start from, some give me a concept, and
everything joins together in a completely integrated mishmash.
--
"All of science, all of the vastness of knowledge
of mankind boils down to two things. We look at
stuff and make stuff up. That's it. That's Everything."
-Capt. Spith
Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 06:53:51 -0500 (EST)
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Re: General Questions (# 3)
X-VMS-To: IN%"champ-l@omg.org"
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3) Champ's computer rules are shaky. There's no talk of 'hardcases'
for a computer. How much damage can they take? Do PC's really need a
DEX? Most PCs have mathmatical, chronographic, and memory capabilities
that stack up to be expensive perks. What are computers considered?
Are they OAF: Laptop (thus, the character pays that many points),
do they have a cost ratio (like vechiles, bases, and followers), or
are they 'straight points'? If you buy a computer as part of a
vechile or base, how much does it cost then? I'm sure they go
into computers a bit more in Cyber Hero...
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 17:12:20 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Miniatures
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 07:34 AM 11/8/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 10:37 PM 11/7/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
>>When using minatures, using the Area of Effect rules, how many
>>hexes up is an Area of effect? What about an explosion?
>
> Even without miniatures, I generally treat AE: Radius, AE: Cone, and
>Explosion as three-dimensional.
>
I must've been brain-dead when I read this earlier, I didn't understand we
were speaking 3-D. I agree with Bob, and I actually sometimes look at
damage directed down as well, say, into a roof... BOOM! and the floor
collapses under the innocents...
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 17:21:31 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Density Increase
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 09:05 AM 11/3/97 -0800, scott2k@gte.net wrote:
>Am I the only one who thinks the defense gained from Density Increase
>should be resistant?
>
Probably not the only one. And I could see an argument once you got to,
say, the density of stone (probably a little lower, too). But look at it
this way.
Density Increase, 1 LVL, 0 END Persitent, Always On, Visible. Distinctive
Features, Obese. The character now weighs ~440 lbs. How many overweight
people you know who take less damage from bullets?
If you really feel that it should be Resistant, take Damage Resistance
Linked to Density Increase. Only costs you 2/3 points / LVL DI.
- Jerry
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 08:05:18 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV: Beast-drawn vehicles
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
I've been pondering beast drawn vehicles. Bob's approach, with
zero-movement vehicles using the beasts' movement, makes a lot of sense,
but it seems like there will be some complications.
First of all, there's the question of how fast the beast and vehicle will
move together. Clearly a horse alone will be able to move faster than a
horse drawing a cart, but how much slower is the cart? And how do you
build that speed into the vehicle?
Secondly, how does it affect things if you have more than one beast
drawing the vehicle? What if you start with a team of six beasts, and one
is killed?
Thirdly, what is the DCV of harnessed beasts?
It occurs to me that the encumbrance rules might be useful in dealing with
all three of these problems. I have long used a house rule in fantasy
games which penalizes the movement of armored characters by the amount of
the DCV/DEX roll penalty due to encumbrance. This might reflect things
nicely; one horse drawing a cart might be slowed considerably, while
multiple beasts combining their carrying capacities - or one stronger
beast - will move much more quickly.
The DCV modifier could also apply, or the beasts could just use the DCV of
the vehicle adjusted by movement.
Perhaps there should be an adjustment to the mass of vehicles for the
encumbrance chart, reflecting that a wheeled cart (or whatever) is easier
to move than dead weight. Offhand, I'd suggest treating vehicles as being
half their actual mass for beast encumbrance purposes, though perhaps
flying vehicles which don't glide or hover should be adjusted by their
actual mass.
I offer this idea for what it's worth, unplaytested and not thoroughly
thought out.
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 18:18:52 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: General Questions (# 3)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 02:32 AM 11/8/97 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote:
>At 07:09 AM 11/8/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>> A regular desktop computer, not designed to do any physical
>>interactions, can get by just fine with a DEX of 10.
>
>Problem: since DEX determines initiative for all things, this means it's
>impossible to write a video game that can beat anyone who's slightly better
>than average. :/
>
Buy DEX, only usable on Video Games? Possibly through the program attachment?
>> Computers are bought at the same 5:1 rate as Vehicles and Followers.
>
>It's not very well lined out, but technically computers are bought AS
Followers.
>
Especially if you go by the Heromaker construct...
- Jerry
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 06:28:57 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Dear ChampionPersons
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 05:50 PM 11/7/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
>Dear ChampionPersons,
> I noticed under the Senses section of my 4th edition Champions
>Deluxe, under the Detect heading, it mentions modifiers such as
>'Discriminatory, Ranged, Parabolic, and 360 degrees,' yet in the above
>paragraphs (where Discriminatory, Ranged, and 360 degrees) are described,
>there's no mention of Parabolic. Could you please help me?
It's Typo Time! Parabolic = Telescopic.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 20:05:16 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Fw: Density Increase
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 04:26 PM 11/3/97 -0800, scott2k@gte.net wrote:
>> > > Am I the only one who thinks the defense gained from Density Increase
>> > > should be resistant?
>> >
>> > I'd say no, just because there are SFX that would not call for it
>> > ( A sumo wrestler, for example). It's much easier for someone to
>> > add a few points of Damage Resistance to their characters with DI
>> > than it is for someone who doen't want resistant DEF to back-calculate
>> > how much the DR would be and subtract it from the DI cost.
>> If someone wants to be denser without being more resistant to killing
>> attacks, he's got the wrong idea. Imagine the Thing bleeding cuz some
>punk
>> stuck him with a knife, or Obsidian.
>>
>
Yes, rocky beings such as the Thing and Obsidian, or even just a stone
golem, have extra defenses... I doubt that they get even a large fraction
of their defenses from being extra dense... how much do they weigh? Even
then, there are reasons for them to be tough... Obsidian only weighs ~900
lb. and spent an extra 40 or so points on defenses anyway...
And you *are* ignoring the point brought up previously. A sumo wrestler, or
other obese person (the Blob, for example) have one level of DI to represent
their sheer weight. They (probably) shouldn't get *automatic* Resistant
Defenses.
- Jerry
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 07:09:13 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: General Questions (# 3)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 06:53 AM 11/8/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
>3) Champ's computer rules are shaky. There's no talk of 'hardcases'
>for a computer. How much damage can they take? Do PC's really need a
>DEX? Most PCs have mathmatical, chronographic, and memory capabilities
>that stack up to be expensive perks. What are computers considered?
>Are they OAF: Laptop (thus, the character pays that many points),
>do they have a cost ratio (like vechiles, bases, and followers), or
>are they 'straight points'? If you buy a computer as part of a
>vechile or base, how much does it cost then? I'm sure they go
>into computers a bit more in Cyber Hero...
As you say, the rules regarding computers are rather shaky; there's no
accounting for the physical structure of a computer, which can be broken.
Some time ago someone else on the list suggested giving computers 2 DEF and
2 BODY, increasable at the same rate as vehicles (3 points for DEF, 1 point
for BODY).
A regular desktop computer, not designed to do any physical
interactions, can get by just fine with a DEX of 10.
Computers are bought at the same 5:1 rate as Vehicles and Followers.
Currently, if a computer is part of a vehicle, you can either buy them
separately or have the vehicle buy the computer. In TUSV, there will be
the option of making a vehicle computerized by simply giving it INT; that
computer becomes an AID by giving the vehicle EGO.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
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Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 20:16:29 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: TUSV: vehicles within ve
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At 09:52 PM 11/8/97 GMT, Opal wrote:
>One question though: Vehicles are bought as Followers, & you can double
>the number of followers for +5 points...
<snipped>
The rest of these observations are moot, as Vehicles are Vehicles, and not
Followers. Followers rules are listed on pg. 43, Vehicles on pp. 45 and
184-191. They double up with Bases, not Followers.
>Back in Champions III they had a process called 'breaking down agents'
>you could do something simillar here. Something like:
>
>You have two 250 pt followers. A 250 pt follower costs 50 pts.
>For 55 pts you have two. You can keep one of them, and break the
>other down into:
>
>4 200pt followers (40+10)
>or
>125 75 pt followers (15+35)
>etc...
>
And then break these down further, too. Sometimes requiring additional math
to make sure you didn't lose any points...
- Jerry
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Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 20:23:38 +0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: TUSV - Added feature
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Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 07:33:10 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV: Beast-drawn vehicles
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At 08:05 AM 11/8/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>
>
>I've been pondering beast drawn vehicles. Bob's approach, with
>zero-movement vehicles using the beasts' movement, makes a lot of sense,
>but it seems like there will be some complications.
>
>First of all, there's the question of how fast the beast and vehicle will
>move together. Clearly a horse alone will be able to move faster than a
>horse drawing a cart, but how much slower is the cart? And how do you
>build that speed into the vehicle?
Well, clearly, some form of Encumberence rule is going to be needed for
this. The reduction in speed will depend on the weight of the vehicle.
Just off the top of my head, a beast (or even another vehicle, like a
flatbed truck) carrying the Zero-Move Vehicle can carry up to 1/4 of its
load (that is, what it could carry with its STR - 10) without penalty. 1/4
to 1/2 of its load it can carry with a 25% movement reduction. Over 1/2 of
its load, up to its max, it can carry with a 50% movement reduction.
For pulling, a beast of burden (again, including another vehicle, like a
tow truck) can drag with up to its full STR with no penalty, losing 1/2 its
move every time the mass is doubled, with no more doublings than the
Vehicle has SPD (this Characteristic is used because it comes closest to
defining how "well-oiled" the vehicle's wheels are).
>Secondly, how does it affect things if you have more than one beast
>drawing the vehicle? What if you start with a team of six beasts, and one
>is killed?
That situation becomes the equivalent of blowing a tire -- you lose a
lot of movement and control.
Short of that, the beasts can be treated as one being with a magnified STR.
>Thirdly, what is the DCV of harnessed beasts?
For traditional harnesses, they get half DCV.
For carriers, use the Encumbrance Table on page 150 of HSR.
>It occurs to me that the encumbrance rules might be useful in dealing with
>all three of these problems. I have long used a house rule in fantasy
>games which penalizes the movement of armored characters by the amount of
>the DCV/DEX roll penalty due to encumbrance. This might reflect things
>nicely; one horse drawing a cart might be slowed considerably, while
>multiple beasts combining their carrying capacities - or one stronger
>beast - will move much more quickly.
Yes, I do think that the existing Encumbrance rules are a good basis for
covering this type of situation. They obviously have to be expanded a bit,
but I agree that they're a good start.
>The DCV modifier could also apply, or the beasts could just use the DCV of
>the vehicle adjusted by movement.
I'm thinking of making them at half their DCV because of how
harnessed-in they'd have to be. They could also use DCV by Velocity if
that's better.
Optionally, I suppose the entire beast + carriage structure could be
treated as one entity for DCV purposes, and use the Hit Locations chart,
with the beasts being hit on either Engine or Passengers.
>Perhaps there should be an adjustment to the mass of vehicles for the
>encumbrance chart, reflecting that a wheeled cart (or whatever) is easier
>to move than dead weight. Offhand, I'd suggest treating vehicles as being
>half their actual mass for beast encumbrance purposes, though perhaps
>flying vehicles which don't glide or hover should be adjusted by their
>actual mass.
What I'm considering (just to clarify) is 1/4 weight if it's being
dragged, with a minimum STR of (Size - SPD) X 5 to move it at all.
>I offer this idea for what it's worth, unplaytested and not thoroughly
>thought out.
Ditto.
---
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Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 07:34:44 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Miniatures
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At 10:37 PM 11/7/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
>When using minatures, using the Area of Effect rules, how many
>hexes up is an Area of effect? What about an explosion?
Even without miniatures, I generally treat AE: Radius, AE: Cone, and
Explosion as three-dimensional.
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Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 08:01:44 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: General Questions (#6 & #9)
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At 08:59 PM 11/7/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
[For lack of answers, I'm only addressing a couple of these...]
> 6) What two comic books and/or graphic novels have inspired you
> most?
X-Men and Legion of Super Heroes (both back in the Silver Age days).
> 9) Would you laugh at me if I set up a web page of real people dressed
> as super heroes of their own design?
Not if I get to be on it.
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From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com>
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV: Beast-drawn vehicles
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 11:25:32 -0500
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Bill Svitavsky (bsvitavs@bu.edu) said:
>How fast will the beast and vehicle move together?
>how does it affect things if you have more than one beast?
>What is the DCV of harnessed beasts?
>The encumbrance rules might be useful in dealing with all three
I think your solutions are wonderful. The Encumbrance DCV penalties
could be used reduce movement, but at what rate? Each -1 DCV is a -1"
Movement? or is it 1/2 Movement? Or -1 Combat Multiple? If it's -1" per
-1 DCV, then how much encumbrance will it take to keep a horse with 20"
of running from moving at all?
>Perhaps there should be an adjustment to the mass of vehicles for
>the encumbrance chart, reflecting that a wheeled cart (or whatever) is
>easier to move than dead weight.
Perhaps a balanced number of wheels would be 1/4 encumbrance, and almost
balanced wheels would be 1/2 encumbrance. This way, a horse pulling a
full cart that would give -10" running if it had no wheels would only
get a -2" penalty. A horse pulling a cart that lost a wheel would be at
a -5" penalty.
Dave Mattingly
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com>
Subject: General Questions (#8: Weight Damage)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 11:30:05 -0500
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>8) Load bearing structures in Champions. How much can a structure
>hold? How much damage does 'weight' do?
This extract is taken from my Size and Density Powers article at
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/1905/haym15.html.
[...
How much mass can a surface hold? Treat the mass doublings as damage
classes attacking the surface as if it were an entangle.
Example: At full height, Universe Man's 30 mass doublings attack the
ground beneath him with 30d6 damage when he walks, and 15d6 when he
stands -- since he's just standing there, it's treated as an attack with
casual STR.
Walking on dirt, at 0 DEF and 16 BODY per hex, he leaves footprints 12
feet deep (which adds a +28 to tracking rolls made against him just like
normal PER rolls) when walking normally, and he sinks 6 feet into the
ground each phase when standing still!
...]
Dave Mattingly
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 10:36:55 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Star Armor was (Re: Shields and Armor...)
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>Let me be clear about this: what you mean is a guy who can hold a rock
>over his head and it transforms into a suit of rock armor, right? Then
>all he has to do is buy Armor: OIF (or IIF if it's hard to remove from
>him). He doesn't need to really do anything about the rock when it's not
>armor. It's just what the focus happens to look like when it's not
>providing any armor.
>
>Think of it this way: let's say you're building a Special Ops soldier who
>has OIF Body Armor, and he carries it around in a backpack when he's not
>wearing it. Does he have to buy Instant Change focused to the backpack?
>Of course not. Same thing for the rock guy, only it looks wierder.
>
>Now then, if you were building RockMan, with a variety of RockPowers
>that have the Only In Hero ID limitation (1/4), *then* it would make
>a great deal of sense to have Instant Change focused to a rock that
>he has to carry around. Or possibly just Phys Lim: Cannot change
>to Hero ID without Magic Rock.
>
> Eric
Well, I scan see where you are coming from about the armor, let me give a
bit more background here. The armor guy in question is in a group similar
to the Green Lantern Corp. Each member has a Star Stone which they can
transform into Armor that has various powers depending on the owner's
imagination. The Stone and Armor are both personal focus, no one else can
pick it up and use it, though they could take it away from the owner and
prevent Star Guy from changing to his hero form. I understand your various
form of the armor theory here, but the Stone would be an IIF because it
looks nothing like the Armor and for the most part no one in his normal life
would say, "Hey, if I take that, no more Star Guy." They might find out his
secret or they might take the stone for gemstone value but they couldn't
figure out it was the armor unlike someone toting armor around in a
backpack. I could almost justify Only In Hero ID here, but it is possible
to take the items away from him thus removing all powers. What do you think?
Sparx
====================================================
I'll fire aimlessly if you don't come out!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 11:06:33 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: General Questions (# 3)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 05:25 PM 11/8/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>> Problem: since DEX determines initiative for all things, this means it's
>> impossible to write a video game that can beat anyone who's slightly
>> better than average. :/
>
> Why not? The game just includes a +X dex, only for this game.
Ah, good point -- no reason why a computer can't have Lightning Reflexes,
OIF Blast Processing. :] (Well, except that "blast processing" doesn't exist
...)
--
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+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely. |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
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Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 13:08:12 -0500 (EST)
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Defenses
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Physical Defense, Energy Defense, Mental Defense, Power Defense.
Are there any other types of defense?
Also, Damage reduction can apply to Physical, Energy, Mental,
and Power.
A few strings back, Presence Defense was discussed.
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 13:24:39 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: General Questions (1-9)
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>> 6) What two comic books and/or graphic novels have inspired you
>> most?
Masmune Shirow's Appleseed (which is so gloriously complex that I figure out
new stuff every time I read it, and yet it still works just fine as an
action/adventure comic), and the first 12 issues of the original run of
Micronauts. Epic stuff - even more so when you realize that it was intended
only to cash in on the popularity of the toy line. Bill Mantlo and Michael
Golden ran with it.
>> 7) After my thermonuke and black holl post raised heck....
>> Did I miss any weapons or forces of mass destruction?
How about a volcanic eruption? I'm no geologist, but for the big ones, you'd
get a massive pressure wave (Mt. St. Helens, anyone?), followed by rock
shrapnel, ash clouds and accumulation (Vesuvius and Pompeii), falling motlen
rock, lava flows, poisonous gases that flow along the ground...yikes. And
supervillians have triggered volcanoes.
Speaking of black holes, how about a gravity bomb? Increase the local
gravity by 50 times almost instantly, but for a few seconds only. What would
happen? Then there's the ubiquitious Electromagnetic Pulse w/o a nuclear
explosion...
>Well, there's always the Tesla resonance hammer.
Hmm? Care to explain this one?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You know, I feel pretty good."
"Yeah, me too. I've got a real positive attitude."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 10:55:24 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Reply-To: rook@infinex.com
Subject: Re: Density Increase
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No; your not the only one. But if that change was made the power should
me made more expensive.
Scott S. wrote:
> Am I the only one who thinks the defense gained from Density Increase
> should be resistant?
> scott2k@gte.net
--
Rook
Also known as Arcady on #herochat, #Fuzionchat, #gurps, #V&V,
and #SuperHeroChat in DALnet IRC
Super Hero Links Page:
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Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
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Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 14:14:00 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Defenses
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On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
> Physical Defense, Energy Defense, Mental Defense, Power Defense.
> Are there any other types of defense?
[snip]
> A few strings back, Presence Defense was discussed.
>
Presence Defense was introduced back before the 4th edition hardcover
rulebook, in Champions 2. It cost 1 point for 2 points of PRE Defense,
which was added to your PRE when calculating the effect of Presence
Attqacsk made against you. Nowadays, the acceptable practice (which does
almost exactly the same thing for the same cost) is to build Presence
Defense as PRE with a -1 Limitation, "Only for Defense."
Also, you forgot Flash Defense. There are various schools of thought
whether Flash Defense should protect all one's senses (that is, work
against Flash vs. Sight, Flash vs. Hearing, Flash vs. Smell, etc.) My
answer: of course not - your sunglasses aren't going to do a thing to save
you from that deafening boom, and I wouldn't allow a Limitation "Only
against Flash vs. Sight".
Ultimately, anything can be a defense, just not a "normal defense." If
somebody builds an NND Attack which doesn't work against people with
PS: Basket Weaving, then Basket Weaving is a defense.
The best defense, of course, is a good offense.
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 14:44:56 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Reply-To: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Lesser Known Defenses
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As I commented in my response to the question about defenses, just about
anything, including basket weaving, can be a defense. I would suggest,
however, a few additions to the standard defenses in the Hero System.
Metaphysical Defense: Protects a character from philosophical and
ontological sources of damage. Don't think this would be useful for a
superhero? Justice League foe T.O. Morrow once ceased to exist due to "a
shift in the cosmic balance." This defense might also be useful to protect
a character from reworkings of the timeline, merging universes, and other
forms of "retconning."
Allergy Defense: Shields a character from the affects of pollen and other
irritants. Often bought through a focus, with -1/2 Limitation "May cause
drowsiness."
Experimental Defense: Nobody's quite sure what this one does, but it might
be worth buying just in case.
Manual Defense: Works like Power Defense, but it costs you END.
Flesh Defense: Sometimes called Flashing Defense. Like Presence Defense,
but works only against PRE Attacks made by unclothed opponents.
Synergy Defense: Protects a character from combined attacks.
Emotional Defense: Helps prevent a character from having his or her
feelings hurt.
Defenestration Defense: Prevents characters from being thrown out of
windows.
D-fens: Shields white males from the erosion of traditional social values.
Sit-on Defense: Stops characters from making the wrong decision, or from
making any decision at all.
National Defense: Helps prevent a character's country from being invaded.
Public Defense: If you can't afford a defense, the GM will provide one for
you. People with high-priced defenses are far more likely to escape damage
than you are, though.
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 15:07:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Density Increase
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On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Scott S. wrote:
> Am I the only one who thinks the defense gained from Density Increase
> should be resistant?
It used to be that way. For game balance purposes, it isn't. Buying it
as resistant isn't all that expensive, so it's not big deal. Besides,
some designs would get the bennies of DI but no resistant DEF.
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 08 Nov 97 21:41:00 GMT
Subject: Re: TUSV - Added feature
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h > >My personal feeling is that if you can pick it up and walk away,
h > >it's a focus, not a vehicle. :)
h >
h > In a world where super-strong characters can lift and carry cars
h > with
h > ease, this isn't always the case. ("We're not going to rob the bank
h > --
h > we're going to *steal* it!") For that matter, with my own STR of 8 I
I wasn't talking about *bricks* - I mean if somethings small enough that
you can walk around with it unencumbered (the brick *will* have some
trouble walking around while carrying a car, if only because it bumps
into things), then it's probably better as a focus. I don't wan't to
see skateboards as vehicles. If the things a bit bigger, but you still
don't get inside it & it doesn't carry significant passengers or cargo
(like a motorcyle), then maybe it's a bulky focus.
Generally, and vehicle smaller than a hex may as well be a focus - if
not, you're giving a character a 5/1 cost break for nothing.
h > can
h > pick up and carry an electric wheelchair or a scooter (at least, for a
h > short distance), and these are definitely vehicles.
h > ---
h > Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
Bulky Foci in my book... But then *you're* writing the book. :)
Another thing that's always bothered me is vehicles in combat
with supers. Since vehicles don't have Stun, they have to
take much lower defenses, so that they can be damaged in a
real fight. Also, when people start taking powered armor as
vehicles you run into trouble over when the occupant takes
damage.
I think that characters in batllesuit-vehicles should take Stun
from every attack that hits the d**n thing. (Thus, if you
were wearing a 12 DEF vehicle, and hasd 8 pd/ed yourself, you'd
have a 20 def against the Stun of attacks that hit it).
Also, characters should usually take knockback damage when the
vehicle they're in gets knocked back (and there should be some
way of getting Star Treck 'inertial dampeners' or whatever
to prevent it (Knock Back resistance for the occupants).
___
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 08 Nov 97 21:52:02 GMT
Subject: TUSV: vehicles within ve
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h > How about vehicles within vehicles ?
h >
h > I'm not thinking about vehicles that combine into uber-vehicles ala
h > Voltron
h > (or whatever). I'm thinking about things like the Enterprise's saucer
h > that can detach and function separately. Or on the other extreme, how
I guess they could just buy Clining and stick to eacheother. You can
also just put a small vehicle, like a shuttlecraft, inside a larger
one if they'res room.
One question though: Vehicles are bought as Followers, & you can double
the number of followers for +5 points. Say I buy a big vehicle for
50 points (250pt vehicle) I want it to have a 50pt shuttle craft,
if I spend 5 pts, I get another 250pt vehicle (which as far as I know
doesn't have to be identical to the 1st), if I buy the 50pt vehicle from
scratch, it cost 10pts. What do I do? Have the 250pt vehicle pay 10 of
it's points for the 50pt one? That means it costs me 2 pts for a 10pt
power... but then, for 5pts I can get another 250pt one.
Back in Champions III they had a process called 'breaking down agents'
you could do something simillar here. Something like:
You have two 250 pt followers. A 250 pt follower costs 50 pts.
For 55 pts you have two. You can keep one of them, and break the
other down into:
4 200pt followers (40+10)
or
125 75 pt followers (15+35)
etc...
Buying followers is simpler in the 4th ed, the Camps III bit was
really messy. :)
h > about Hobgoblin (from the animated Spiderman) has his 'regular' goblin
h > glider, but can attach it to his plane sized goblin glider.
h >
h > Curt Hicks
Well, his regular glider would be focused flight, and the plane-sized
one is the vehicle.
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 08 Nov 97 22:03:04 GMT
Subject: RE: And now for guns!
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> I've always found this issue to be one of the great shortcomings of
> Champions (foci). Why should a PC have to pay points for something
> which
> he has acquired through the course of adventuring? Or, for that
Every play in one of those D&D games where everyone had 80 magic
items? That's why.
> pay points for simply role-playing his character intelligently? Should
> brick who uses "street-scenery" regularly to get area effect on his
> strength (throwing cars around) or additional hand attacks (beating
> people with lamp-posts) have to pay for those advantages/powers? In my
The AE, no. But you do not get extra dice for hitting people with
lamp posts! You get to do up to the DEF+BOD of the lamp post with
your STR. That's it. No bonus damage. What's a typical PD for a
brick 24? Wont a 24 DEF fist hurt a lot more than a 6 DEF lamp post?
Leverage? I may be able to get some leverage out of a 2-foot club,
but a brick with 1000x normal human STR? Heed need a club the lenght
of a football field with a DEF of 30, before he'd start doing extra
damage!
> opinion, not everything in Champions has to cost points. It gets silly
> after a while. Rope multipowers? For all the things a rope can be used
....
> water" power? A 2-way radio really should be standard issue for all
> members of a Hero team, but in most cases the PCs are short on points
> and therefore don't use them - even though there is really no reason
> they shouldn't in real life. IMHO, most people play role-playing games
I agree, there's no reason Champs characters should have to pay points
for things that Joe Normal would probably have walking down the street.
In my game, I use the Wealth options, and most of the characters have
at least 5 pts... they don't have 2-way radios, but they do carry
cellphones. :)
Of course, I do restrict what is 'readily' available... you can get
a light pistol pretty easily - even if you have to go out and buy
it on the street, but asault rifles are another thing entirely...
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 08 Nov 97 22:10:06 GMT
Subject: RE: And now for guns!
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
h > however, is with character growth. Basically, you must design your
h > character with everything you will ever want to do initially - because
h > you'll never get enough experience to buy anything else of
h > Sure, savvy use of multipower slots can let you buy a new blast every
h > other week, and that VPP can let you have whatever you want within
h > limits. But what if you want to master the ability to shield yourself
h > from bullets (forcefield) or maybe that last mental blast you took
h > awakened your latent TK. At ~2 experience per session. It takes player
h > months to get even the simplest enhancement. I ask you, does the genre
h > really appear to be that stagnant in the comic books?
Usually, characters in comic books don't change much over time, but do
undergo, periodic, major, changes. If you're getting 2 exp/session (which
is slightly low, you typically see 2-5 (5 being spectacular success)),
and you don't spend points for a few months you'll have enough to buy
a new power.
Another option, is to let a character get a nifty new power when the
events of the champaign warrant it, and then withold the experience
to pay for it over time.
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 08 Nov 97 22:38:08 GMT
Subject: Multiple simultaneous Sf
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
h > From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
h >
h > Is it possible to have multiple simultaneous Sf/x?
h > An example I could think of would be incindary rounds,
h > which are both 'heat' and 'impact' damage in one neat little
h > package.
h > ...or a character whose EB is a gravity/cold S/fx.
h > Tell me what you think.
h > -Jason
It's certianly possible to define whatever F/X you want.
An incendiary bullet certainly qualifies. Though you
might have trouble modeling it as a power. If you just
take a straight RKA - you have to define it as physical
or energy, though I suppose you could get a 2d RKAp +
1 pip RKAe.
gravity/cold EB? what's that? Snow? :)
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 17:00:02 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Star Armor was (Re: Shields and Armor...)
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>Hmm. Need more clarification on this. StarMan has his StarArmor.
>It's OIF. That basicaly means that it's obvious that he's wearing
>armor and that while he can't be disarmed of it in combat, you
>could take it off of him if you took him down while he was
>wearing it. Also, if you took his armor off and stuck him in a
>cell in his underwear, he couldn't wave his hands and get the armor
>back (otherwise it wouldn't be a focus at all).
Correct, if someone takes him down and removes the armor then they have
removed the stone as well, it becomes the armor, so therefore, locking him
up in his underwear without the Star Stone would pretty much render him a
normal human locked in his underwear in a cell.
>
>All of that is due to the armor having OIF. Now, let's consider this
>stone he carries while not wearing this armor. Powers bought through
>the stone would count as IIF, not OIF, because it's difficult to tell
>that the stone is responsible. IIF is a limitation. -1/4, to be
>exact. What powers are you thinking of applying this limitation to?
>Does he have any *other* StarMan powers besides the ability to
>suddenly be wearing a suit of armor?
No, all of his powers come through the armor which is brought to him through
the stone's transformation. That is it. No other powers, the stone becomes
the armor, thus the Instant Change to Armor Power IIF.
>Assuming he has other StarMan powers, you could define them as a
>Hero ID, in which case he can only use the powers while armored up,
>or IIF: StarRock, in which case he doesn't have to armor up, but
>he has to have the rock on him.
No, he has to be in the Armor to use his powers they all come through the
armor. It is kind of like Green Lantern's ring but in this instance it is
Star Guardian Armor.
Thanks for your help. Any other suggestions or comments are appreciated.
Talk at you later.
Sparx
====================================================
I'll fire aimlessly if you don't come out!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 17:25:55 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: General Questions (# 3)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> Problem: since DEX determines initiative for all things, this means it's
> impossible to write a video game that can beat anyone who's slightly better
> than average. :/
Why not? The game just includes a +X dex, only for this game.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 23:36:56 +0000
From: Chris Brecken <Christopher.Brecken@sunderland.ac.uk>
Subject: Starter Questions
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Hi, i'm relativly new to this list, so forgive me for these basic
questions....
1. is there a bonus/penalty when attacking someone from behind, and
what constitutes behind?
2. if a speed 4 charcter with no saved phases aborts to a dodge on
phase 2, hoiw long does this dodge last, untill phase 3, or 6
if the speed 4 charcter is attacked again on phase 3, do they
have to abort for another dodge, and can they.
Thanks....
--
"Don't put your trust in foolish promises sworn.
Nor cryptic message scrawled upon every wall"
Tony Clarkin,
The Spirit
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Date: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 01:47 PM