Week Ending December 13, 1997
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 97 00:44:03
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight (Was Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint)
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On Fri, 5 Dec 1997 23:38:06 -0500 (EST), Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>On a related topic, I have heard pretty convincing arguments that a
>human-sized object breaking the sound barrier would *not* cause a
>significant sonic boom - once again, because relatively little air is
>being displaced.
Given that the 'crack' of a whip is actually a sonic boom, methinks
you're mistaken.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight (Was Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint)
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>>>>> "BS" == Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> writes:
BS> The advantage in this is awfully slim. If my force of will makes me
BS> glow, or turns my eyes green, or makes me smell funny, then my Flight
BS> has visible effects, but observers still can't really tell what is
BS> holding me aloft.
It is not a matter of them being able to determine exactly what it is, it
is a matter of them being abl to determine that there is something there.
They may not understand why you glow or your eyes glow green or you smell
funny, but they will know that whatever causes that is also allowing you to
fly.
The advantages of IPE are clear: if you have IPE on your Flight and you are
flying, various nasties that may wish to kill you (or do other things) will
not be able to trace you by the effects of your Flight.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight
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Date: 06 Dec 1997 22:24:08 -0500
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>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
BG> But that doesn't answer my question. Apparently you misunderstood
BG> it, so I'll state it more specifically: what real advantage, either
BG> combat or campaign oriented, does a character who flies by "force of
BG> will" have over one who, for example, is surrounded by little green
BG> spheres when he flies, especially in light of the brief discussion of
BG> Flight special effects under "Special Effects" in the "General Rules"
BG> section of "Powers" (HSR, p 53, first column, last paragraph)?
Lets use a bit more blatant special effects: a rocket pack. The most
"visible" aspect is the tremendous noise it makes when in use.
Try sneaking up on *ANYONE* while flying with such a thing.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Making the Speedster
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>>>>> "R" == Rook <rook@infinex.com> writes:
R> Obviously their's having a speed score way above campaign average.
R> And the high Dex.
This trips up many players and GMs. You do *NOT* need a high Speed or DEX
to build a "speedster".
Really.
At the simplest level, speedsters are not particularly "quick" as far as
combat is concerned. In a standard 250-point game you can make a
reasonable speedster type with a DEX 15-18, SPD 3-4, lots of a particular
movement power, skill levels towards Multiple Move-By, and maybe skill
levels to offset the movement power's turn mode. Add a few odd powers to
simulate some basic "super speed" effects, and you have an effective
speedster at a cost of between 150 and 200 points.
Remaining points can go to things like Reduced Endurance on the movement
power, increased Recovery, more END, and whatever else strikes your fancy.
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Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 22:40:29 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight (Was Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint)
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On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, qts wrote:
> On Fri, 5 Dec 1997 23:38:06 -0500 (EST), Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>
>
> >On a related topic, I have heard pretty convincing arguments that a
> >human-sized object breaking the sound barrier would *not* cause a
> >significant sonic boom - once again, because relatively little air is
> >being displaced.
>
> Given that the 'crack' of a whip is actually a sonic boom, methinks
> you're mistaken.
I guess you're probably right that there'd be a boom - which is how I've
generally played things on those rare occasions where it's been relevant.
Unfortunately, I can't remember the details of the argument against the
boom, nor where I heard or read it. Probably a comic book - and you know
how accurate comic book science is. :-) Perhaps the point was that the
boom wouldn't do as much damage as a low flying jet, due to the lesser
amount of displaced air?
I really do reserve judgment on this, until I hear a thorough analysis
from an aeronautics engineer or develop mach-1 flight myself.
As far as the wooshing goes, a glider might be a good example to consider.
I don't really have any firsthand experience with those, but my guess
would be that they don't really woosh. Of course, they're probably
relatively slow too.
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 21:43:46 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
> But that doesn't answer my question. Apparently you misunderstood it,
> so I'll state it more specifically: what real advantage, either combat or
> campaign oriented, does a character who flies by "force of will" have over
> one who, for example, is surrounded by little green spheres when he flies,
> especially in light of the brief discussion of Flight special effects under
> "Special Effects" in the "General Rules" section of "Powers" (HSR, p 53,
> first column, last paragraph)?
A visible power effect need only be visible enough to make use of the power
likely to be noticed, make it clear who is producing the effect, and make
it clear on what target (if any) the effect is being used. The text on
page 53 makes it clear that there is a wide range of special effect
interpretations that are neither advantages nor limitations. Consider the
following visible flight SFXs:
A. Visible to sight group (boot jets give off flame)
Visible to hearing grp (boot jets roar)
Visible to smell (boot jets give off exhaust)
B. Visible to sight group (wings, restrainable)
Visible to hearing grp (wings make flapping noise ex. in a glide)
Visible to touch (wings do obvious wing-like things)
C. Visible to sight group (glowing character and energy trail,
Radio/Radar (electromagnetic waves from character)
Special/Mystic (character gives off magic aura)
A is unlikely ever to fly in and surprise anyone, and can be detected by
the residual smell of exhaust after he leaves. This will, on rare
occasion, be a good thing, but it will usually just get more Viper agents
on A's trail faster.
B is entitled to a stealth skill roll even if flying, since the special
effect is a more subtle sight and sound. On the other hand, those big,
obvious wings are an invitation to an entangle, which will be very
inconvenient for B. IMHO, this approximately balances.
C is the p. 53 example. Whereas C does not give off a perceptable
"whoosh," C is immediately noticed by Air Traffic Control and/or NORAD.
Fair trade, IMHO. Sorcerous enemies will also realize that this is a
magically-granted power as well. So far, so good. The question raised on
page 53 is whether the glowing energy trail is an advantage, a limitation
or neither. The judgment of the authors is that it is enough of each to
qualify as a minor effect, so no bonus nor limitation. In a Dark Champions
or an Espionage campaign, I would strongly disagree, so YMMV, but in a
four-color campaign I agree with their argument.
Now consider:
AA. Visible to radiation group,+3/4 (antigrav boots)
BB. Totally Invisible,+1 (Angel Wings, restrainable)
CC. Visible to Sight group,+1/2 (Glowing trail as above)
Compare AA to A. AA can fly in silently and without a visible glow.
Unless the enemy has radiation sensors, or happens to look up (PER at a
minus) at the right moment, AA may surprise the enemy.
Compare BB to B. BB has aetherial wings that cannot be perceived, but that
cannot pass through barriers; therefore, they are useless against grabs,
entangles and enclosed spaces. The difference is that, since enemies don't
see those wings, they are much less likely to think about trying to do any
of those things, which would normally not affect flight.
Compare CC to C. Both have the -0 glowing trail, but CC does not attract
the attention of radar nor of sorcerors. This will *usually* be a good
thing.
Other notes:
IMHO, the Size powers are outside the visible/invisible powers rule, since
the size of an object is obvious, and cannot be made inobvious by buying
the power IPE (buy Images instead or combat levels used to offset growth
penalties). This is especially true, since these powers are the ones most
commonly bought Always On. Similarly, a character with Armor usually has
some obvious defense -- Kevlar, armor plates, tough hide, etc. -- but is
not entitled to the Visible Power Effects limitation.
I realized, after I had been GMing for a bit, that I had been granting
Clairvoyance IPE by default, which is not per book. It should be visible
both at the source (user) and at the point of use, which makes it much less
useful. Since I was unwilling to impose the ruling retroactively on the
campaign, I adopted a house rule that Clairvoyance may be visible at only
one end (chosen when the power is bought), but then it must be *very*
visible at that end.
IMHO, a character producing Images is obviously producing the Images,
unless they are bought IPE, or unless the image includes the character's
own hex.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
From: "Case" <wmpc@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Champions Adventures
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 00:59:47 -0500
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I've been subscribing to this list for about a week now, and wish I could
join in and add something constructive. Unfortunately, I tend to get bored
with rules discussions fairly quickly. I could probably add an occasional
'Good idea! I agree!', but that wouldn't help conversation much.
I was wondering if anyone was interested in talking about their _role
playing experiences_ in the Champions universe. How many people still play
the 4-color brand of Champions? We used to play 4-color adventures for the
longest time, until we got into a terrible rut- playing every tired cliche
in the book
1) You walk into a bank, cashing a check, when suddenly...
2) The government has called you all into this meeting because we
have a top-secret mission that only YOU can handle, or course, if you are
caught we will deny everyth...
3) We must raid the super high-tech enemy complex, to
(a) rescue the hostage(s)
(b) stop the doomsday
device/nuclear/biological/chemical/mechanical weapon
(c) destroy it.
(d) steal back the plans/equipment
(e) Kill the evil, vile, manical leader
(f) Oh, and get out quickly, because the central core is making
a weird ticking noise, and counting down backwards...hmmm..."3 minutes and
counting??"
4) Hey, somebodys stealing the nuclear core of that reactor!
5) Wait, let me guess- you want to take over the world, too?
6) You're on patrol one night, and you hear a cry for help in the
alley...
That was one problem we had, the other was getting people out of their
shells and INTO their characters. So many good adventures feel flat when
players acted biligerent- for example- being arrested and sent to jail.
(Yea, so what? I know you can't keep me in here, because it ruins the
adventure for everyone else...) (Yea, I killed the witness, so what? As long
as I keep moving, I can keep this adventure afloat...)
Another problem is when people role play, they tend to forget what it's
really like to be human. Ask yourself next time you're roleplaying- "Am I
hungry? Do I need to get batteries for my TV remote? What's that smell in my
refrigerator?? Damn I forgot to call my mother for her birthday! My stomach
is a bit on the nauseous side today. Who wants to be the witness at my
divorce trial??"
-CaseMan
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 01:04:57 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
X-Sender: susano@access4.digex.net
Reply-To: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Hero System Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight
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On Sat, 6 Dec 1997, Rook wrote:
> In issue 29 of Impulse he deflects a hail of hundreds of bullets coming from
> all directions by creating a
> whirlwind pushing down. In effect he reflected all the bullets down. It wasn't
> like a Force Field, it was
> missile deflection. He sat there for a moment and debated to himself the best
> direction to send all the
> bullets. He chose down to eliminate having any innocents (sp?) get hurt. Now, he
> certainly didn't see any
> of the bullets coming from behind him until he began to spin.
This could also be considered a Force Wall. The direction could be just
FX.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
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Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 23:11:44 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
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Subject: Re: Champions Adventures
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Case wrote:
> I've been subscribing to this list for about a week now, and wish I could
> join in and add something constructive. Unfortunately, I tend to get bored
> with rules discussions fairly quickly. I could probably add an occasional
> 'Good idea! I agree!', but that wouldn't help conversation much.
>
> I was wondering if anyone was interested in talking about their _role
> playing experiences_ in the Champions universe. How many people still play
> the 4-color brand of Champions? We used to play 4-color adventures for the
> longest time, until we got into a terrible rut- playing every tired cliche
> in the book
>
[snip]There's a lot one can do with four color. Just read Astro City. It's
much more
dynamic a genre than people give it credit for.
> That was one problem we had, the other was getting people out of their
> shells and INTO their characters. So many good adventures feel flat when
> players acted biligerent- for example- being arrested and sent to jail.
> (Yea, so what? I know you can't keep me in here, because it ruins the
> adventure for everyone else...) (Yea, I killed the witness, so what? As long
> as I keep moving, I can keep this adventure afloat...)
Remember the genre. If you're doing four color heroes just don't do those
things.Even most villians don't. And they certainly don't get away with it.
Enforce the genre.
Have something get on them for it. Remind them of their disads, etc.
> Another problem is when people role play, they tend to forget what it's
> really like to be human. Ask yourself next time you're roleplaying- "Am I
> hungry? Do I need to get batteries for my TV remote? What's that smell in my
> refrigerator?? Damn I forgot to call my mother for her birthday! My stomach
> is a bit on the nauseous side today. Who wants to be the witness at my
> divorce trial??"
Focus on what's important to the story at hand. There's some great
discussions
on news:rec.games.frp.advocacy that go into this. Which is important to you?
Playing the Game?
Living the Role?
Simulating the World?
Focus on what's needed and blur out the rest to the level most comfortable
to you.
--
Rook
Super Hero Links Page:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 01:25:05 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: CHAR: Shaggy
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Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
> > One of the Garou books (I think) contains Shaggy 20 years after the
> > Mystery Machine days, though under a different name to avoid copyright, I
> > suppose. I found the write up to be amusing, but I never could stand the
> > show and Shaggy ends up a burned out Pentex agent;).
>
> Hmmm. Gotta see that one.
>
> Anyway, that show was great. At least the first series, anyway.
> In the pre-Scrappy (the antichrist of cartoons) days.
>
> Going with the drug-trip reading of that show, where it was seen
> as one long acid trip, that must make the second series a bad trip, as all
> the monsters were real that time _and_ we had to put up with Scrappy.
Yes, Scrappy-Doo *IS* the Antichrist. And just to fly a little
further away from appropriate list topics....
Although through the years Scooby-Doo (the show) continued on a
downhill slide until it became Shaggy, Scooby and Scrappy stumbling into
a random storefront, only to be chased by a monster for 22 minutes,
there was a comeback.
"A Pup Named Scooby-Doo" was an EXCELENT parody/homage to the
original series, starring all the 'kids' as kids. I thoroughly abhor
the entire genre of the "___-kids" rash of several years ago, but this
show surpassed said shortcoming and shone out as a show which celebrated
all the good of Scooby-Doo and reveled in the genre of The Cartoon.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled RPG topic(s)
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
From: "Jeff O'Connor" <jtoc@msn.com>
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 02:35:59 -0700
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Case:
Four-color doesn't have to be dull. When it comes down to it, I think every
plot device in comics is pretty tired today. Still, you can have a lot of
fun just with the things you described if you tweak them a bit. For
example:
> 1) You walk into a bank, cashing a check, when suddenly...
Ah, the tired old bank robbery. I played in a DC Heroes campaign a few
years back where a villianous, small-fry computer hacker and a mid-level
super-speedster ran a pretty clever racket. The hacker had written a
computer program that would give him the location of all the ATMs in the
city that had been activated by someone who had entered their ATM card and
code. As soon as someone made a legitimate withdrawl, the speedster would
run by, snatch the cash, and (assuming the PC/NPC failed his or her
perception check) get away clean. As far as the victims could tell, the
ATMs had never paid off in the first place. It was a great scenario - the
hacker's involvement was obvious, but the speedster's wasn't. Moreover, it
turned out that this storyline was just a hook to a "mini-series." The
speedster was stealing to keep buying black-market Velocity-9, which was the
source of his power.
> 2) The government has called you all into this meeting because we
>have a top-secret mission that only YOU can handle, or course, if you are
>caught we will deny everything
Like they say on the X-Files, no matter how paranoid you are - you're not
paranoid enough. When dealing with the government, take a page from Mission
Impossible: The Movie. Things AREN'T what they appear. What happens if
the mission is to destroy a doomsday device that turns out to be a
cold-fusion reactor? You know - clean, cheap, inexhaustibly power for the
whole world, and the heroes get duped into taking it out in the name of
American big business? Better yet, have one super-secret government agency
play the heroes against another? It only a bit less tired of a plot
device - but if you play the USA vs. the UN and put the target in an exotic
location, you can really have a good time with it.
> 3) We must raid the super high-tech enemy complex, to
> (a) rescue the hostage(s)
> (b) stop the doomsday
device/nuclear/biological/chemical/mechanical weapon
> (c) destroy it.
> (d) steal back the plans/equipment
> (e) Kill the evil, vile, manical leader
> (f) Oh, and get out quickly, because the central core is making
> a weird ticking noise, and counting down
backwards...hmmm..."3 minutes and
> counting??"
There's nothing wrong with this classic - just give it an unusual setting
and an unlikely twist or two. A great storyline that came up when I was
playing DC Heroes was to have the PCs have to recover the Spear of Destiny
(an old Justice Society of America plot device) and return it to the
Vatican, where it had been housed since the end of World War II. Sure,
Spear of Destiny = big, nasty weapon. But how often do PCs run into the
Pope as an NPC or end up duking it out at St. Peter's and worrying more
about the statuary than their own super-necks?
> 4) Hey, somebodys stealing the nuclear core of that reactor!
Never look a gift-horse or plot hook in the mouth. Exposure to radiation =
mutation. This is a good plot device for slapping the character with an
unknown disadvantage or new power. I GM'd an adventure where one of the
high-tech geek NPCs got exposed to a mutagen in a plotline like this and
ended up with superhuman strength - and no idea how to use it gently. The
media dubbed her a monster and she left a trail of wreckage to prove it.
The PCs ended up having to protect her from a batch of heroic,
government-issue NPCs who wanted to cart her off. They could fight the
NPCs, but not city hall. In the end, they had to find a cure to keep her
out of a government laboratory.
> 5) Wait, let me guess- you want to take over the world, too?
What's wrong with wanting to take over the city/country/globe? Besides,
it's all in the execution. I have a favorite villian called Dr. Voodoo
whose the exiled dictator of a ficticious Carribean nation. He only wants
to take over his country, but he usually uses a small Army of undead to do
it. This makes for a great Halloween adventure.
> 6) You're on patrol one night, and you hear a cry for help in the
alley...
This seems to work for Spider-Man and Batman. They're always getting into
something with this old chestnut. Again, it doesn't matter what draws you
into the adventure - it is what the adventure is. Suppose the alley is a
gateway to a parallel universe, or another time and the characters are
hearing someone/something on the other side? Maybe it's a trap that's been
set by the newest villian in town? Maybe the characters are hallucinating,
and it's all in their heads? If it isn't broken, don't fix it - use it!
X-Sender: mlknight@pop.mindspring.com
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 03:20:09 -0700
From: Michelle Knight <mlknight@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures
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At 12:59 AM 12/7/97 -0500, Case wrote:
> I was wondering if anyone was interested in talking about their _role
>playing experiences_ in the Champions universe. How many people still play
>the 4-color brand of Champions? We used to play 4-color adventures for the
>longest time, until we got into a terrible rut- playing every tired cliche
>in the book
My advice: Watch the news and read the newspapers and get ideas from
there. True, many ideas aren't really 4 colorish, but it can make for some
interesting Dark Champions adventures. In fact, I'm working on one such
idea as I write this.
Michelle
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 06:33:39 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Regenerating limbs
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 12:39 PM 12/7/97 -0800, Rick Holding wrote:
>Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>
>> At 09:59 AM 12/6/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
>> > Do characters with regeneration regenerate limbs? If they
>> >can, how much would they need to heal to regenerate, lets say, an
>> >arm?
>>
>> The last I saw, officially, no. For character concepts that need this,
>> I usually allow a +1/2 "House Rule" advantage, "Regrows Limbs," which can
>> be applied to REC, Aid (with the Healing option), or Regeneration.
>
>And this is written where? Certainly not under the description of
>regeneration in the BBB.
It's not written anywhere. That's what makes it a house rule, Rick.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 97 14:59:16
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight (Was Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sat, 6 Dec 1997 22:40:29 -0500 (EST), Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>
>
>On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, qts wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 5 Dec 1997 23:38:06 -0500 (EST), Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>>
>>
>> >On a related topic, I have heard pretty convincing arguments that a
>> >human-sized object breaking the sound barrier would *not* cause a
>> >significant sonic boom - once again, because relatively little air is
>> >being displaced.
>>
>> Given that the 'crack' of a whip is actually a sonic boom, methinks
>> you're mistaken.
>
>I guess you're probably right that there'd be a boom - which is how I've
>generally played things on those rare occasions where it's been relevant.
>
>Unfortunately, I can't remember the details of the argument against the
>boom, nor where I heard or read it. Probably a comic book - and you know
>how accurate comic book science is. :-) Perhaps the point was that the
>boom wouldn't do as much damage as a low flying jet, due to the lesser
>amount of displaced air?
This depends upon how you define significant, then, I suppose. My take
is that if you *want* your hero to cause damage, just take a linked <g>
EB vs PD. OTOH if you want your PC to go supersonic without being
heard, you must take IPE: Hearing
Does that help?
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
X-Sender: avatar@pop-gw.homeshopping.com.br
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 13:28:06 -0200
From: "Rafael Sant'Anna Meyer" <avatar@br.homeshopping.com.br>
Subject: Help!!!
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Hi Heroes,
I am needing 3 npcs for a game. One must be a Blaster, other a velocist
and the third a sorcerer.
I accept Heromaker files.
Eletric Avatar
avatar@br.homeshopping.com.br
eletric_avatar@hotmail.com
UIN:3291380
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 07:35:45 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 12:59 AM 12/7/97 -0500, Case wrote:
> I was wondering if anyone was interested in talking about their _role
>playing experiences_ in the Champions universe. How many people still play
>the 4-color brand of Champions? We used to play 4-color adventures for the
>longest time, until we got into a terrible rut- playing every tired cliche
>in the book
> 1) You walk into a bank, cashing a check, when suddenly...
> 2) The government has called you all into this meeting because we
>have a top-secret mission that only YOU can handle, or course, if you are
>caught we will deny everyth...
> 3) We must raid the super high-tech enemy complex, to
> (a) rescue the hostage(s)
> (b) stop the doomsday
>device/nuclear/biological/chemical/mechanical weapon
> (c) destroy it.
> (d) steal back the plans/equipment
> (e) Kill the evil, vile, manical leader
> (f) Oh, and get out quickly, because the central core is making
>a weird ticking noise, and counting down backwards...hmmm..."3 minutes and
>counting??"
> 4) Hey, somebodys stealing the nuclear core of that reactor!
> 5) Wait, let me guess- you want to take over the world, too?
> 6) You're on patrol one night, and you hear a cry for help in the
>alley...
You could always go with the Villains Attack Heroes, or Villains Set
Heroes Up to Take a Fall. I've gotten some very positive feedback on some
of the adventures on my website (URL below). One of the plots features
Spectrum setting up the heroes to face criminal charges by tricking them
into committing violent crimes on television; another has VIPER and COIL
playing the heroes off each other.
> That was one problem we had, the other was getting people out of their
>shells and INTO their characters. So many good adventures feel flat when
>players acted biligerent- for example- being arrested and sent to jail.
>(Yea, so what? I know you can't keep me in here, because it ruins the
>adventure for everyone else...) (Yea, I killed the witness, so what? As long
>as I keep moving, I can keep this adventure afloat...)
> Another problem is when people role play, they tend to forget what it's
>really like to be human. Ask yourself next time you're roleplaying- "Am I
>hungry? Do I need to get batteries for my TV remote? What's that smell in my
>refrigerator?? Damn I forgot to call my mother for her birthday! My stomach
>is a bit on the nauseous side today. Who wants to be the witness at my
>divorce trial??"
Something that's been done with a fair amount of success is to just sit
around and say, "OK, we're not going to have an adventure tonight. We're
just going to have a barbecue in the backyard at team headquarters." Of
course, you can substitute whatever other activity the whole group would
enjoy -- poker game, shopping excursion, or whatever. If it's near a
holiday time, have them observe a holiday get-together; this is especially
fitting for Independence Day (in the US at least) and Christmas. But the
point is that they have to interact *in character*, and in the context of
the game. The GM portrays any DNPCs and other NPCs, but the closest thing
that happens to an actual adventure is some minor nusiance created by a
Hunter, or maybe some minor incident foreshadowing an upcoming scenario.
I've seen this done, participated, and GMed it, and it's always helped make
the characters a little more human (or whatever they happen to be) instead
of just a bunch of stats and soliloquies.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 08:46:12 -0700
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
Subject: Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Jumping in late here, but I've had a weeks worth to catch up on...
Favorite Fight scenes:
Comics...Legion of Super Heroes (1st incarantion- Baxter issues) vs the
Legion of SuperVillians. Those were drawn wonderfully. I also liked the
KK death fight. I was pissed and saddened, but it was well done.
As mentioned also, the Superman/Batman fight in Dark Knight Returns. The
ultimate Green arrow. heh.
Movies.. The cliffs of insanity sword duel (hey I love the movie)-
Princess Bride.
There were some edits in it but I also liked the Brandon Lee vs the
'Long haired henchman' in Rapid Fire.
Favorite movie tacitc in a fight....
Godzilla vs the Smog monster.. Smoggie alters and flies away, and
Godzilla watches him, then turns around shoots his halitosis at the
ground, lifts off, flies after Smoggie, and drops on him. Campy but fun.
--
-Mhoram
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your
two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 08:31:21 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Regenerating limbs
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 11:00 AM 12/7/97 -0800, Robert A. West wrote:
>Rick Holding wrote:
>>
>> Bob Greenwade wrote:
>> >
>> > At 09:59 AM 12/6/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
>> > > Do characters with regeneration regenerate limbs? . . .
>> >
>> > The last I saw, officially, no. . . .
>>
>> And this is written where? Certainly not under the description of
>> regeneration in the BBB.
>
>Actually, the point is that the book says nowhere that Regeneration can
>regrow limbs. Powers do what they are stated to do, modulo special
>effects.
>
>Per book, Regen recovers points of BODY, period. As has been pointed out
>from time to time, the only way to represent limb loss under standard
>rules is as a Major Transform. By the rules for Transform, a completed
>transform may either be reversed by recovering the Transform "BODY" as if
>recovering normal BODY, in which case Regeneration works, or by some
>other method appropriate to the Transform, in which case Regeneration is
>irrelevant.
It's not altogether true that the only way to represent limb loss under
standard rules is as a Major Transform. (It depends somewhat on how you
define the term "standard rules.") On HSR page 164, in the "Hands, Arms,
and Shoulders" section under "Disabling," second sentence, the book states,
"The arm may be totally severed depending upon the nature of the attack and
the GM's judgement." The same sentence (identical except for "arm" being
replaced with "limb") appears under the "Thighs, Legs, and Feet" section.
>Since humans do not, in most campaigns, routinely regrow limbs, this
>implies that the Transform in question is nor reversed by normal BODY
>recovery; therefore standard Regeneration would not work. It would be
>perfectly appropriate to define a SFX for Regeneration that works against
>(and only against) Transforms that represent Amputations, and to require
>that all amputation Transforms include Regeneration/Limb as one of the
>reversal conditions.
>
>BTW, Regeneration is, IMHO, vastly underpriced. For 10 points, a
>character gets to heal 1 BODY/turn, Persistent, indefinitely. This means
>that the character will not "bleed" to death at negative BODY. Once a
>Paramedic roll has been made, the character will heal 300 BODY per hour!
>Wow!
I tend to agree with you here. I tend to keep a tight rein on
Regeneration as it currently stands. The proposal for a +1/4 Advantage to
REC for every step up the Time Chart is much more logical.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com (Unverified)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 11:21:54 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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X-UID: 27
At 06:04 PM 12/5/97 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>The discussion of Special Effects at the beginning of the Powers section
>implies pretty strongly that the glowing trail schtick is strictly
>optional; not having one isn't something you should pay extra for.
>
>Invisible Flight would imply that people can't tell he's flying, just like
>you can't tell that somebody firing an Invisible Energy Blast is launching
>an attack.
It may seem to, but only if one confuses function with FX. Remember that
visibility issues are related to SFX, while the function of the power is
that which remains constant *regardless* of SFX.
All Powers which are considered 'visible' (all but inherently Persistent
Powers, Mental Powers, and maybe Density Increase) create 3 perceptible
effects /completely apart/ from the function of the Power. Buying IPE
allows you to eliminate these perceptible effects, and only those effects --
you can't use IPE at any level to render the function of the power
imperceptible. For example, one can make it impossible to tell that someone
has launched an attack at you, but that doesn't make the *damage* of the
attack "invisible".
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good |
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com (Unverified)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 11:21:56 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight (Was Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 11:19 PM 12/5/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>If it's clear where the source of the power is, whether a Sandman with a
>gun, Popinjay with a pointed finger, or Superman confidently floating in
>the air, I'd be willing to consider the power visible.
Ah, but that's just it -- Superman's flight is NOT clear. If Superman is
flying with his feet touching the surface of a quicksand pit, will someone
charging him realize he IS flying, or will they think he's standing?
Superman's flight more than likely IS Invisible -- there's NO sign that he's
flying except for the fact that he's in the air.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good |
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com (Unverified)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 11:21:58 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 07:38 AM 12/6/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> But that doesn't answer my question. Apparently you misunderstood it,
>so I'll state it more specifically: what real advantage, either combat or
>campaign oriented, does a character who flies by "force of will" have over
>one who, for example, is surrounded by little green spheres when he flies,
>especially in light of the brief discussion of Flight special effects under
>"Special Effects" in the "General Rules" section of "Powers" (HSR, p 53,
>first column, last paragraph)?
1) For one example, see my comments in another post, where force of will
flight can be used to trick people into walking into a trap (quicksand that
Our Hero appears to be "standing" on).
2) Here's another one: protecting secret IDs. If Superman is pushed out a
window, he can use his flight to slow his fall and "catch" a convenient
outcropping -- "Lucky for you that ledge was there, Clark, you could have
been killed!" Green Lantern tries the same trick, and everyone watching
knows he's Green Lantern, because he surrounds himself with that trademark
glowing green aura when he kicks in the flight.
3) As Rat has pointed out a half-dozen times (frankly, IMO whenever Rat and
I actually AGREE on something, it should be taken as gospel ;] ;] ;]), the
distinction makes a big difference in terms of stealth issues. Lots easier
for Maxima to sneak up on someone than Rocket Red.
4) As Robert West illustrated in an incredibly well-written post, it also
makes a big difference to people trying to COUNTERACT those powers. SFX
give clues to the mechanisms behind powers. If I see someone flying with
wings, I'm going to think I can stop him from flying by 'clipping' them.
Rockets can be clogged, magnetic manipulation can be disrupted, etc. But to
figure out these countermeasures, I have to be able to detect the measure in
the first place.
I don't think there's really much question that the guy with force-of-will
flight is better off. I will admit, it's debatable whether he's that MUCH
better off. I've often felt that Invisible is rather overpriced, at least
in regard to non-attack/damaging/whathaveyou powers like movement modes.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good |
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 13:23:58 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Help!!!
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, Rafael Sant'Anna Meyer wrote:
>
> Hi Heroes,
>
> I am needing 3 npcs for a game. One must be a Blaster, other a velocist
> and the third a sorcerer.
Uh... what is a 'velocist'?
BTW: Rafael, if you have web access (or even access to Lynx) try my
website (listed below), there are well over 200+ write-ups there,
including 65 pretty useful superhero characters adapted from the
_Wildcards_ book
series.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 11:00:46 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Regenerating limbs
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Rick Holding wrote:
>
> Bob Greenwade wrote:
> >
> > At 09:59 AM 12/6/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
> > > Do characters with regeneration regenerate limbs? . . .
> >
> > The last I saw, officially, no. . . .
>
> And this is written where? Certainly not under the description of
> regeneration in the BBB.
Actually, the point is that the book says nowhere that Regeneration can
regrow limbs. Powers do what they are stated to do, modulo special
effects.
Per book, Regen recovers points of BODY, period. As has been pointed out
from time to time, the only way to represent limb loss under standard
rules is as a Major Transform. By the rules for Transform, a completed
transform may either be reversed by recovering the Transform "BODY" as if
recovering normal BODY, in which case Regeneration works, or by some
other method appropriate to the Transform, in which case Regeneration is
irrelevant.
Since humans do not, in most campaigns, routinely regrow limbs, this
implies that the Transform in question is nor reversed by normal BODY
recovery; therefore standard Regeneration would not work. It would be
perfectly appropriate to define a SFX for Regeneration that works against
(and only against) Transforms that represent Amputations, and to require
that all amputation Transforms include Regeneration/Limb as one of the
reversal conditions.
BTW, Regeneration is, IMHO, vastly underpriced. For 10 points, a
character gets to heal 1 BODY/turn, Persistent, indefinitely. This means
that the character will not "bleed" to death at negative BODY. Once a
Paramedic roll has been made, the character will heal 300 BODY per hour!
Wow!
Consider what one can do with 75 points to spend.
25 2 pts Regeneration Usable by Self and 1 Other*
17 Life Support: Immunity to Disease Aging, Self and 46 Others.*
33 10D6 Dispel any Disease power(+1/4) Area Effect Explosion(+1)**
* = use by Others adv. requires 0 DCV Conc., Gestures,
Incantations.
** = entire power 0 DCV, Gestures, Incantations.
The Dispel will get rid of active disease, while the Life Support will
keep it from coming back long enough for the immune system to rid the
body of the disease organism -- curing virtually any disease. When a
character proposed buying this suite, I told the player (half-jokingly)
that I would also mandate the "Messiah Package"
10 20 PRE
3 PS: Messiah 13- (PRE)
10 Head of Major World Religion
10 Revered as a God
15 Unlimited Wealth
150 200 Million Followers (25-pt Normals)
Disadvantages
25 Hunted by Mulitple Religions as the False Messiah 14-,>pow,NCI.
10 Watched by Followers 14-
15 Watched by all Governments and the Press 14-
25 Extreme Reputation 14- (Messiah or False Messiah)
10 Public Identity
3 Package Bonus
---
110 Net Cost of Package
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
From: "VANSICKLE, James" <jvansickle@shl.com>
Subject: RE: Regenerating limbs
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 13:45:00 -0600
Encoding: 86 TEXT
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
What about BOD loss through loss of limbs? If I have a hand or arm cut
off, do I permenately loose a certain amount of points in BODY. To
represent the fact that part of my BODY is no longer attached?
>----------
>From: Robert A. West[SMTP:robtwest@erols.com]
>Sent: Sunday, December 07, 1997 1:34 PM
>To: champ-l@omg.org
>Subject: Re: Regenerating limbs
>
>Rick Holding wrote:
>>
>> Bob Greenwade wrote:
>> >
>> > At 09:59 AM 12/6/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
>> > > Do characters with regeneration regenerate limbs? . . .
>> >
>> > The last I saw, officially, no. . . .
>>
>> And this is written where? Certainly not under the description of
>> regeneration in the BBB.
>
>Actually, the point is that the book says nowhere that Regeneration can
>regrow limbs. Powers do what they are stated to do, modulo special
>effects.
>
>Per book, Regen recovers points of BODY, period. As has been pointed out
>from time to time, the only way to represent limb loss under standard
>rules is as a Major Transform. By the rules for Transform, a completed
>transform may either be reversed by recovering the Transform "BODY" as if
>recovering normal BODY, in which case Regeneration works, or by some
>other method appropriate to the Transform, in which case Regeneration is
>irrelevant.
>
>Since humans do not, in most campaigns, routinely regrow limbs, this
>implies that the Transform in question is nor reversed by normal BODY
>recovery; therefore standard Regeneration would not work. It would be
>perfectly appropriate to define a SFX for Regeneration that works against
>(and only against) Transforms that represent Amputations, and to require
>that all amputation Transforms include Regeneration/Limb as one of the
>reversal conditions.
>
>BTW, Regeneration is, IMHO, vastly underpriced. For 10 points, a
>character gets to heal 1 BODY/turn, Persistent, indefinitely. This means
>that the character will not "bleed" to death at negative BODY. Once a
>Paramedic roll has been made, the character will heal 300 BODY per hour!
>Wow!
>
>Consider what one can do with 75 points to spend.
>
>25 2 pts Regeneration Usable by Self and 1 Other*
>17 Life Support: Immunity to Disease Aging, Self and 46 Others.*
>33 10D6 Dispel any Disease power(+1/4) Area Effect Explosion(+1)**
> * = use by Others adv. requires 0 DCV Conc., Gestures,
> Incantations.
> ** = entire power 0 DCV, Gestures, Incantations.
>
>The Dispel will get rid of active disease, while the Life Support will
>keep it from coming back long enough for the immune system to rid the
>body of the disease organism -- curing virtually any disease. When a
>character proposed buying this suite, I told the player (half-jokingly)
>that I would also mandate the "Messiah Package"
>
>10 20 PRE
>3 PS: Messiah 13- (PRE)
>10 Head of Major World Religion
>10 Revered as a God
>15 Unlimited Wealth
>150 200 Million Followers (25-pt Normals)
> Disadvantages
>25 Hunted by Mulitple Religions as the False Messiah 14-,>pow,NCI.
>10 Watched by Followers 14-
>15 Watched by all Governments and the Press 14-
>25 Extreme Reputation 14- (Messiah or False Messiah)
>10 Public Identity
>3 Package Bonus
>---
>110 Net Cost of Package
>
>--
><------------------------------------------------------->
>Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
>Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
>http://www.erols.com/robtwest
>
>
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:19:43 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: RE: Regenerating limbs
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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X-UID: 1
On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, VANSICKLE, James wrote:
> What about BOD loss through loss of limbs? If I have a hand or arm cut
> off, do I permenately loose a certain amount of points in BODY. To
> represent the fact that part of my BODY is no longer attached?
I beleive that the BB states a limb can only take about 1/3 of your Body
score before being destroyed. This might help in determining how far to
reduce someone's Body stat after limb loss.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 12:39:23 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Regenerating limbs
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> At 09:59 AM 12/6/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
> > Do characters with regeneration regenerate limbs? If they
> >can, how much would they need to heal to regenerate, lets say, an
> >arm?
>
> The last I saw, officially, no. For character concepts that need this,
> I usually allow a +1/2 "House Rule" advantage, "Regrows Limbs," which can
> be applied to REC, Aid (with the Healing option), or Regeneration.
And this is written where? Certainly not under the description of
regeneration in the BBB.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 13:09:28 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
Subject: Any Published Champions Speedsters?
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Hello;
In my quest for info on Speedsters I have one more question.
Are they any Speedsters published in any Champions books. So far I've
been unable to find any.
Any edition of the game will do.
--
Rook
Super Hero Links Page:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 17:00:48 -0500
X-Sender: matroy@mail.abacom.com
From: Mathieu Roy <matroy@abacom.com>
Subject: Re: Any Published Champions Speedsters?
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At 01:09 PM 12/7/97 -0800, Rook wrote:
>Hello;
> In my quest for info on Speedsters I have one more question.
>
>Are they any Speedsters published in any Champions books. So far I've
>been unable to find any.
>
>Any edition of the game will do.
There are a couple in the latest edition of Golden Age Champions.
Mathieu
From: "Case" <wmpc@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures- Breaking up the monotony...
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 17:14:22 -0500
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-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Sunday, December 07, 1997 10:51 AM
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures
>At 12:59 AM 12/7/97 -0500, Case wrote:
>> I was wondering if anyone was interested in talking about their _role
>>playing experiences_ in the Champions universe. How many people still play
>>the 4-color brand of Champions? We used to play 4-color adventures for the
>>longest time, until we got into a terrible rut- playing every tired cliche
>>in the book
>> 1) You walk into a bank, cashing a check, when suddenly...
Bob Greenwade wrote:
> You could always go with the Villains Attack Heroes, or Villains Set
>Heroes Up to Take a Fall. I've gotten some very positive feedback on some
>of the adventures on my website (URL below). One of the plots features
>Spectrum setting up the heroes to face criminal charges by tricking them
>into committing violent crimes on television; another has VIPER and COIL
>playing the heroes off each other.
I'm sorry- when I wrote that late last night, I didn't wrap up my point the
way I wanted too because I was just plain too tired. What I was trying to
say before my brain rudely kicked out on me was that I've tried in recent
years to take my Champions adventures to a wholly different level. No more
'black and white' heroes and villians. (Not all supervillians want to take
over the world, some just want to have a little fun!) No more big-boobed
babes in skintight costumes. I was at the point where I think I would barf
if I heard "I was on patrol one evening when..." Megalomaniacs OUT. Bar
fights OUT. Bank robberies WAY OUT. Instead, let's try to make stories with
'above average' people in extraordinary circumstances.
Here are some recent examples:
(a) A platoon of space marines is sent to the Mars to quell a major civil
disobedience when they stumble upon a strange discovery...
(b) Correctional officers are in charge of transporting a superpowered
pyromanic across country. Funny thing is, the pyromanic doesn't want out- he
NEEDS to get to Florida in one piece to recue his lover at the Dade County
Stronghold...
(c) You play members of a militant Christian group infilitrating the a
group of "mutilationists"...But before you meet Dr Vivisector- you are
required to perform a live dissection to prove your worth. Do you do it? Or
is there another way?
(d) Later in the Fall of 1998, I hope to have put together Champions 'Toy
Story' spinoff- where the the protagonists play children's toys. The whos
and whys aren't quite sketched out yet.
(e) A great adventure I'm working on for the Summer of '98- a *long*
overdue spoof of Vampire:The Masquerade et al. You play rednecks chasing
after some 'lunatics' who just "gone sucked da blood out ma sons prize
HAWG! Gawd dammit- lets go show 'em some old fashioned Southern JUSTICE!
YEEE HAW!"
(f) The adventure I'm debuting for Dreamation 1998- where you finally get
to play the super villians. (We did the playtesting for it last night it was
the best adventure I've ever done in 14 years of GMing!)
> Something that's been done with a fair amount of success is to just sit
>around and say, "OK, we're not going to have an adventure tonight. We're
>just going to have a barbecue in the backyard at team headquarters." Of
>course, you can substitute whatever other activity the whole group would
>enjoy -- poker game, shopping excursion, or whatever. If it's near a
>holiday time, have them observe a holiday get-together; this is especially
>fitting for Independence Day (in the US at least) and Christmas. But the
>point is that they have to interact *in character*, and in the context of
>the game.
I love this idea! Very cool!
>Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Great page, btw!
-CaseMan
From: "Case" <wmpc@ix.netcom.com>
Cc: <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 17:17:58 -0500
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>
> Focus on what's important to the story at hand. There's some great
>discussions
>on news:rec.games.frp.advocacy that go into this. Which is important to
you?
>Playing the Game?
>Living the Role?
>Simulating the World?
>
> Focus on what's needed and blur out the rest to the level most
comfortable
>to you.
Great newsgroup- thanks for the tip...
>My Champions Webpage is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
>Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
>http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
>
>
>
From: "Case" <wmpc@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 17:42:13 -0500
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>Ah, the tired old bank robbery. I played in a DC Heroes campaign a few
>years back where a villianous, small-fry computer hacker and a mid-level
>super-speedster ran a pretty clever racket. The hacker had written a
>computer program that would give him the location of all the ATMs in the
>city that had been activated by someone who had entered their ATM card and
>code. As soon as someone made a legitimate withdrawl, the speedster would
>run by, snatch the cash, and (assuming the PC/NPC failed his or her
>perception check) get away clean. As far as the victims could tell, the
>ATMs had never paid off in the first place. It was a great scenario - the
>hacker's involvement was obvious, but the speedster's wasn't. Moreover, it
>turned out that this storyline was just a hook to a "mini-series." The
>speedster was stealing to keep buying black-market Velocity-9, which was
the
>source of his power.
In a phrase- that is *awesome*. I love it!
>There's nothing wrong with this classic - just give it an unusual setting
>and an unlikely twist or two. A great storyline that came up when I was
>playing DC Heroes was to have the PCs have to recover the Spear of Destiny
>(an old Justice Society of America plot device) and return it to the
>Vatican, where it had been housed since the end of World War II. Sure,
>Spear of Destiny = big, nasty weapon. But how often do PCs run into the
>Pope as an NPC or end up duking it out at St. Peter's and worrying more
>about the statuary than their own super-necks?
Funny- in my Christian militant adventure, my PC's met the Pope in the Star
Wars-style closing medal ceremony! heh heh
>> 5) Wait, let me guess- you want to take over the world, too?
>
>What's wrong with wanting to take over the city/country/globe? Besides,
>it's all in the execution. I have a favorite villian called Dr. Voodoo
>whose the exiled dictator of a ficticious Carribean nation. He only wants
>to take over his country, but he usually uses a small Army of undead to do
>it. This makes for a great Halloween adventure.
Well, the problem with wanting to take over the world- it's been done to
death. There is almost no spin that hasn't been done. Everybody wants to be
naked and famous.
Here's a valid analogy: Hero and villian are wrestling with a revolver.
Gun goes off- and the villian crumples to the floor holding his stomach.
"You shot...me". Asleep yet??
How about this- Hero and villian are wrestling with gun, and hero
snatches it away. He holds the gun to the villians forehead and says,
"Today- you died. I shot you in the head, and you feel to the ground and
died. Your last view in your fading window of conscious will be the front of
my boots in front of your face."
"The very fact that I haven't taken your life yet means I own it. You
are here listening to me because I am allowing you live long enough to
listen to me."
"Before I kill you, I'm going to tell you what you will miss
tomorrow...and the next day...and the next."
"Before I kill you, I want you to know how important your life was to
your family..."
Who wants to rule the world? No one. Who wants to find a cologne that will
make him irresistable to women? Who wants kill his rival? Who convets your
car? Can't hardly breathe...
>> 6) You're on patrol one night, and you hear a cry for help in the
>alley...
>
>This seems to work for Spider-Man and Batman. They're always getting into
>something with this old chestnut. Again, it doesn't matter what draws you
>into the adventure - it is what the adventure is. Suppose the alley is a
>gateway to a parallel universe, or another time and the characters are
>hearing someone/something on the other side? Maybe it's a trap that's been
>set by the newest villian in town? Maybe the characters are hallucinating,
>and it's all in their heads? If it isn't broken, don't fix it - use it!
Great point! I just think there's a better way...I mean, when I go on
patrol, nothing exciting ever happens to me except that some jerk has cut
off the 'Mystery Machine' on the highway....;D
From: "Case" <wmpc@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 17:44:45 -0500
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> My advice: Watch the news and read the newspapers and get ideas from
>there. True, many ideas aren't really 4 colorish, but it can make for some
>interesting Dark Champions adventures. In fact, I'm working on one such
>idea as I write this.
Oh forgive me, my message was suppose to be lead-in for dropping the whole
4 color scene in favor of more realistic, darker stories...
(I just never completed the thought because my brain bonked out...)
-CaseMan
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 18:42:12 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: RE: Regenerating limbs
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At 03:19 PM 12/7/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, VANSICKLE, James wrote:
>
>> What about BOD loss through loss of limbs? If I have a hand or arm cut
>> off, do I permenately loose a certain amount of points in BODY. To
>> represent the fact that part of my BODY is no longer attached?
>
>I beleive that the BB states a limb can only take about 1/3 of your Body
>score before being destroyed. This might help in determining how far to
>reduce someone's Body stat after limb loss.
>
But BODY does not necessarily have to be a function of *just* physical
structure. It could represent a strong "will to live, as well as size and
mass (Champions II, p 59.)" So, it would depend on character conception.
Yes, the disabling rules *could* be used as a guideline... but what if I
lost 3 limbs? <g> Guess quadraplegics *aren't* valid characters in Hero...
(Start off at negative BODY? <lol>)
You may want the character to lose a BODY or two, as well as that limb.
This might be balanced out by no longer having that hit location. "I
rolled a 10 to hit the one-armed man." "Okay, Fugitive, what hit
location?" "I rolled an 8..." "<flipping a coin> Right arm, no damage." <g>
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 18:43:32 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Any Published Champions Speedsters?
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At 05:00 PM 12/7/97 -0500, Mathieu Roy wrote:
>At 01:09 PM 12/7/97 -0800, Rook wrote:
>>Hello;
>> In my quest for info on Speedsters I have one more question.
>>
>>Are they any Speedsters published in any Champions books. So far I've
>>been unable to find any.
>>
>>Any edition of the game will do.
>
>There are a couple in the latest edition of Golden Age Champions.
>
And there's Vibron, who was in Enemies I, and Classic Enemies. Not really
powerful, but he's a Speedster. (Not very efficient, either...)
- Jerry
From: Egyptoid <Egyptoid@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 18:49:01 EST
Subject: Re: Re: Invisible Flight
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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In a message dated 12/6/97 11:11:19 PM, robtwest@erols.com wrote:
>I realized, after I had been GMing for a bit, that I had been granting
>Clairvoyance IPE by default, which is not per book. It should be visible
>both at the source (user) and at the point of use, which makes it much less
>useful.
Yeah, great big talking head looking around at the far end
"I am the great & powerful Oz!" ain't IPE at all.
--
Ell-Man
From: Egyptoid <Egyptoid@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 18:49:04 EST
Subject: Re: Re: Invisible Flight
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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In a message dated 12/6/97 11:36:33 PM, bsvitavs@bu.edu wrote:
>> >human-sized object breaking the sound barrier would *not* cause a
>> >significant sonic boom - once again, because relatively little air is
>> >being displaced.
>> Given that the 'crack' of a whip is actually a sonic boom, methinks
>> you're mistaken.
>I guess yo're probably right that there'd be a boom - which is how I've
>generally played things on those rare occasions where it's been relevant.
I think you are both correct.
Any object breaking the sound barrier causes a sonic boom.
The end of a snapped towel, the tip of a bull-whip, a bullet,
and a 757 all do it.
The trick is the size. Jets displace TONS of air as they break
sound-speed, and their sound carries for miles.
A cracking whip displaces an ounce or two at most, and can't
be heard a block away.
Supersonic flight could be IPE I supppose, SFX are that you don't
somehow cause a boom like every other object that breaks the
sound "barrier".
From: Egyptoid <Egyptoid@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 18:49:06 EST
Subject: Re: Re: Regenerating limbs
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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In a message dated 12/6/97 10:06:37 PM, rholding@ActOnline.com.au wrote:
>> I usually allow a +1/2 "House Rule" advantage, "Regrows Limbs," which can
>> be applied to REC, Aid (with the Healing option), or Regeneration.
>And this is written where? Certainly not under the description of
>regeneration in the BBB.
I guess I missed the limb-severing portion of the damage rules.
Shall I whip out my Role-Master crit conversions for Hero? :)
--
Ell-Man
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 18:58:03 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures- Breaking up the monotony...
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At 05:14 PM 12/7/97 -0500, "Case" wrote:
>I'm sorry- when I wrote that late last night, I didn't wrap up my point the
>way I wanted too because I was just plain too tired. What I was trying to
>say before my brain rudely kicked out on me was that I've tried in recent
>years to take my Champions adventures to a wholly different level. No more
>'black and white' heroes and villians. (Not all supervillians want to take
>over the world, some just want to have a little fun!) No more big-boobed
>babes in skintight costumes. I was at the point where I think I would barf
>if I heard "I was on patrol one evening when..." Megalomaniacs OUT. Bar
>fights OUT. Bank robberies WAY OUT. Instead, let's try to make stories with
>'above average' people in extraordinary circumstances.
> Here are some recent examples:
>
It just struck me that people in a "four-color" world see things in "black
and white." Huh. I personally think that "black and white" heroes and
villains, Big Busted Babes, and megalomaniacs are pretty darn genre... I
don't have them *all* the time, but, hey, it's a comic, right?
Besides, the bar fights I usually run are more of the action film type, and
usually just for this one mutant FBI agent, whose player really enjoys them.
Bank robberies, yeah, guilty as charged. Sometimes, you just *don't* have
a scenario... that, and fights in a shopping mall.
>(a) A platoon of space marines is sent to the Mars to quell a major civil
>disobedience when they stumble upon a strange discovery...
>
How is this *not* tired? I'm sorry, but I've seen it... and it doesn't
really fit the superhero mold *at all*... unless you're talking
space-faring supers, *maybe*. For a Hero game, sure... pretty easy.
>(b) Correctional officers are in charge of transporting a superpowered
>pyromanic across country. Funny thing is, the pyromanic doesn't want out- he
>NEEDS to get to Florida in one piece to recue his lover at the Dade County
>Stronghold...
>
I'm sorry, but I don't see how this is much of a plot hook. Are the
players the guards? If so, how do they get drawn into the intrigue? I can
see them sitting on their rears eating donuts, guarding a guy who isn't
going to escape... maybe once they get there?
> (c) You play members of a militant Christian group infilitrating the a
>group of "mutilationists"...But before you meet Dr Vivisector- you are
>required to perform a live dissection to prove your worth. Do you do it? Or
>is there another way?
>
Superheroes? huh. I assume so, because of "Doc V." Woulda never thunk
it, tho.
> (d) Later in the Fall of 1998, I hope to have put together Champions 'Toy
>Story' spinoff- where the the protagonists play children's toys. The whos
>and whys aren't quite sketched out yet.
>
Um, yeah. I guess you could do it. Didn't the Micronauts have to pose as
kids toys? Or was it just that their ship was always mistaken for such?
> (f) The adventure I'm debuting for Dreamation 1998- where you finally get
>to play the super villians. (We did the playtesting for it last night it was
>the best adventure I've ever done in 14 years of GMing!)
>
I've been trying to get a good supervillain adventure up for awhile... can
you fill us in? I think it could be great... but it's not *necessarily*
original, either. DC and Marvel have both had out villain books before, I
believe. One of the newer Teen Titans villain groups is getting a one-shot
this month, actually...
Bob Greenwade wrote this:
>> Something that's been done with a fair amount of success is to just sit
>>around and say, "OK, we're not going to have an adventure tonight. We're
>>just going to have a barbecue in the backyard at team headquarters." Of
>>course, you can substitute whatever other activity the whole group would
>>enjoy -- poker game, shopping excursion, or whatever. If it's near a
>>holiday time, have them observe a holiday get-together; this is especially
>>fitting for Independence Day (in the US at least) and Christmas. But the
>>point is that they have to interact *in character*, and in the context of
>>the game.
>
>I love this idea! Very cool!
>
Yeah, I think so, too. I'll have to try it some time.
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 19:11:07 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures
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At 05:42 PM 12/7/97 -0500, "Case" wrote:
> Well, the problem with wanting to take over the world- it's been done to
>death. There is almost no spin that hasn't been done. Everybody wants to be
>naked and famous.
>
Eh? Is this a reference to something...? Sorry, maybe I'm being obtuse. <g>
> Here's a valid analogy: Hero and villian are wrestling with a revolver.
>Gun goes off- and the villian crumples to the floor holding his stomach.
>"You shot...me". Asleep yet??
>
Yeah, okay, it's been used a lot. But, have *I* used it yet? Nope. And,
until I do, I'm gonna consider it open game... (probably won't use it, tho)
> How about this- Hero and villian are wrestling with gun, and hero
>snatches it away. He holds the gun to the villians forehead and says,
>"Today- you died. I shot you in the head, and you feel to the ground and
>died. Your last view in your fading window of conscious will be the front of
>my boots in front of your face."
> "The very fact that I haven't taken your life yet means I own it. You
>are here listening to me because I am allowing you live long enough to
>listen to me."
> "Before I kill you, I'm going to tell you what you will miss
>tomorrow...and the next day...and the next."
> "Before I kill you, I want you to know how important your life was to
>your family..."
>
So, does he kill him? This sounds *almost* what Westley in the Princess
Bride did with Prince Humperdink ("To the death!" "No, to the Pain."), but
he didn't follow through. If the "hero" shot him like this... well, I
wouldn't want that character in my game, is all. I try and steer clear of
the "vengeful hero" type. I think *that*'s been done a little too much.
(And I don't like it.)
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 19:13:48 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Re: Regenerating limbs
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At 06:49 PM 12/7/97 EST, Egyptoid wrote:
>In a message dated 12/6/97 10:06:37 PM, rholding@ActOnline.com.au wrote:
>>> I usually allow a +1/2 "House Rule" advantage, "Regrows Limbs," which can
>>> be applied to REC, Aid (with the Healing option), or Regeneration.
>>And this is written where? Certainly not under the description of
>>regeneration in the BBB.
>
>I guess I missed the limb-severing portion of the damage rules.
>Shall I whip out my Role-Master crit conversions for Hero? :)
>
Aah! Isn't this the system that, in a fist-fight, generally comes up with
"Black eye" as a result for every other punch? My brother once got 3 of
'em in one fight...
Oh, and the ever popular "Disemboweled" result... that one comes up a lot,
too, right?
- Jerry
From: "Case" <wmpc@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures- Breaking up the monotony...
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 19:42:57 -0500
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>It just struck me that people in a "four-color" world see things in "black
>and white." Huh. I personally think that "black and white" heroes and
>villains, Big Busted Babes, and megalomaniacs are pretty darn genre... I
>don't have them *all* the time, but, hey, it's a comic, right?
>Besides, the bar fights I usually run are more of the action film type, and
>usually just for this one mutant FBI agent, whose player really enjoys
them.
>Bank robberies, yeah, guilty as charged. Sometimes, you just *don't* have
>a scenario... that, and fights in a shopping mall.
I think you may have somehow taken my comments personally. I'm not attacking
you.
I don't even know you. There's nothing wrong with four color adventures if
that's what you really like. I was only suggesting alternative ideas to
GM/Players who felt the same way....
>
>>(a) A platoon of space marines is sent to the Mars to quell a major civil
>>disobedience when they stumble upon a strange discovery...
>>
>How is this *not* tired? I'm sorry, but I've seen it... and it doesn't
>really fit the superhero mold *at all*... unless you're talking
>space-faring supers, *maybe*. For a Hero game, sure... pretty easy.
Superhero 'mold'. To me, your use of that phrase pretty much sums up the
point I'm trying to make. Something must be done about the superhero 'mold'.
>>(b) Correctional officers are in charge of transporting a superpowered
>>pyromanic across country. Funny thing is, the pyromanic doesn't want out-
he
>>NEEDS to get to Florida in one piece to recue his lover at the Dade County
>>Stronghold...
>>
>I'm sorry, but I don't see how this is much of a plot hook. Are the
>players the guards? If so, how do they get drawn into the intrigue? I can
>see them sitting on their rears eating donuts, guarding a guy who isn't
>going to escape... maybe once they get there?
>
Of course you don't see a plot hook. You don't want to. Why are you
slamming me? I'm not sure if I came off as sarcastic to you in that original
message I wrote or what. I was just trying to present different ideas that
we tried that were successful. Am I presenting these ideas in the wrong
forum? Is there another list I should be subscribing to?
Oh- the plot hook isn't immediately obvious on purpose. I want the players
to feel 'comfy'- or incredibly suspicious...
>> (d) Later in the Fall of 1998, I hope to have put together Champions 'Toy
>>Story' spinoff- where the the protagonists play children's toys. The whos
>>and whys aren't quite sketched out yet.
>>
>Um, yeah. I guess you could do it. Didn't the Micronauts have to pose as
>kids toys? Or was it just that their ship was always mistaken for such?
You got me there. I guess it was dumb for me to even suggest it.
>> (f) The adventure I'm debuting for Dreamation 1998- where you finally
get
>>to play the super villians. (We did the playtesting for it last night it
was
>>the best adventure I've ever done in 14 years of GMing!)
>>
>I've been trying to get a good supervillain adventure up for awhile... can
>you fill us in? I think it could be great... but it's not *necessarily*
>original, either. DC and Marvel have both had out villain books before, I
>believe. One of the newer Teen Titans villain groups is getting a one-shot
>this month, actually...
To be honest- I'm a little reluctant now...Everything I've typed has either
been shot done or insulted...
:(
From: "Case" <wmpc@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 19:53:08 -0500
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>> "Before I kill you, I'm going to tell you what you will miss
>>tomorrow...and the next day...and the next."
>> "Before I kill you, I want you to know how important your life was to
>>your family..."
>>
>So, does he kill him? This sounds *almost* what Westley in the Princess
>Bride did with Prince Humperdink ("To the death!" "No, to the Pain."), but
>he didn't follow through. If the "hero" shot him like this... well, I
>wouldn't want that character in my game, is all. I try and steer clear of
>the "vengeful hero" type. I think *that*'s been done a little too much.
>(And I don't like it.)
>
I think almost every story that's ever been done has been done before in
one form or another. I think we all borrow little ideas or snippets of
dialogue from movies, music, books, television. Everybody's a critic, eh?
Are you out to slam EVERYTHING I come with?
No, he doesn't kill him. He let's him go to live a new life- one that
doesn't involve killing or stealing. He's been given a second chance to
enjoy life with his family. (Why- you could say I inadvertantly 'stole' the
idea from A Christmas Carol)
-CaseMan
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 11:47:09 +1000
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> Remember the genre. If you're doing four color heroes just don't do those
>things.Even most villians don't. And they certainly don't get away with it.
>Enforce the genre.
>Have something get on them for it. Remind them of their disads, etc.
>
>
*sigh* can we stop with this sort of reasoning? genre is a guidelin or a limit to be breached, not a club for the gm. . .
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 11:51:59 +1000
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>Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 11:55:24
>To: hero-l@emerald.omg.org
>From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
>Subject: Re: Champions Adventures
>Cc: champ-l@omg.org, champ-l@omg.org
>
>
>> Remember the genre. If you're doing four color heroes just don't do those
>>things.Even most villians don't. And they certainly don't get away with it.
>>Enforce the genre.
>>Have something get on them for it. Remind them of their disads, etc.
>>
>>
>
>*sigh* can we stop with this sort of reasoning? genre is a guidelin or a limit to be breached, not a club for the gm. . .
>
>
X-Sender: jhebert@texas.net
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 20:28:01 -0600
From: Jeff Hebert <jhebert@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures- Breaking up the monotony...
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At 07:42 PM 12/7/97 -0500, Case wrote:
<snip>
> To be honest- I'm a little reluctant now...Everything I've typed has either
>been shot done or insulted...
> :(
I have seen this happen a lot, so don't feel bad -- it's not you, it's just
a kind of feeding frenzy I have seen e-mail on this and most of the other
lists I've been privy to over the years. Something happens to people behind
the veil of e-mail ...
I thought your ideas all were interesting and had merit. Especially don't
give up on the villain idea; we have been thinking of doing much the same
thing. There are two major villain groups in our world; the Fourth Imperium
(your standard world-conquerers) and Predator (a loose gang who is just out
to make money, and will stop at nothing to get it). The campaign we were
thinking of running was to have the players make up new members of
Predator, who would then be given the assignment to rip off some high-tech
weapons from the Imperium for resale to the highest bidder. The players
then get to play completely evil characters if they want, doing whatever
pleases them, completely out of the heroic ethos. And, it makes for some
interesting play later, when the players' regular heroic characters
encounter these nefarious new Predator villains! I think (hope) it will be
a lot of fun.
Maybe even that isn't completely original (hey, what is?) but it is fun,
and that's the important thing, right?
Hang in there!
Jeff
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Locks
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 18:43:05 -0800
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On Thursday, December 04, 1997 9:14 AM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
<snip>
>Not really. Using a slim jim is Lockpicking; it is just a different
attack
>on the door mechanism. The only way to defeat a slim jim is to
encase the
>entire mechaism in a box so that the tool cannot reach the mechanism.
It
>is an all or nothing deal, and seldom used except on the most
expensive of
>cars because, well, if one locks one's only set of keys inside the
only way
>in at that point is to break a window.
When I lost my only set of keys to a car I had just bought, I called a
locksmith. He took a blank key and a file, put the key in the lock,
wiggled it, examined the marks this made, and filed it with the
cylindrical file.
It took two tries and probably twenty minutes, but the key works
perfectly. Better than most cheaply copied keys I've had made at the
local Fred Meyer store. (A local "has everything" store, like Walmart
but with a full grocery store as well.)
<snip>
>To be suscinct, locks exist to thwart amateurs. Professional thieves
will
>find a way to bypass whatever security you can devise. For instance,
a
>local car theft ring allegedly had a slick trick: a flatbed car
carrier
>with an insulated shell. They'd pull into a lot, pick out a BMW,
quickly
>hoist it into the shell. The shell was a faraday cage, so it would
block
>Lojack signals, and it was padded to shut in the sound of the alarm.
>They'd drive the truck up into New Hampshire, out of range of the
Lojack
>transmitter, and chop up the car (after disconnecting the battery,
thus
>power to the alarm). I say "allegedly" because when the ring was
busted a
>few years ago the truck was never recovered.
A West Coast ring a few years ago didn't have an unusual theft method,
but did have an unusual way of getting their money. They would steal
brand new luxury cars and strip them. The insurance would pay off the
car in full, and the stripped hulk would be sold at auction. They
would buy the car, and put the parts back on it. The sale made the VIN
clear and legal, so they could sell it at legit prices, instead of the
low prices that hot cars get because they can be spotted on a simple
traffic stop.
Filksinger
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Worlds greatest fights
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 18:47:35 -0800
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On Thursday, December 04, 1997 9:15 AM, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>Well, since the thread has died, here are the totals:
Oops. I completely forgot my favorite gunfight: The last fight in True
Grit.
"Reach for your guns, you son of a bitch!"
Filksinger
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 22:07:42 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures
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At 07:53 PM 12/7/97 -0500, "Case" wrote (in response to me):
>>> "Before I kill you, I'm going to tell you what you will miss
>>>tomorrow...and the next day...and the next."
>>> "Before I kill you, I want you to know how important your life was to
>>>your family..."
>>>
>>So, does he kill him? This sounds *almost* what Westley in the Princess
>>Bride did with Prince Humperdink ("To the death!" "No, to the Pain."), but
>>he didn't follow through. If the "hero" shot him like this... well, I
>>wouldn't want that character in my game, is all. I try and steer clear of
>>the "vengeful hero" type. I think *that*'s been done a little too much.
>>(And I don't like it.)
>
> I think almost every story that's ever been done has been done before in
>one form or another. I think we all borrow little ideas or snippets of
>dialogue from movies, music, books, television. Everybody's a critic, eh?
>Are you out to slam EVERYTHING I come with?
>
I can agree with you on your first point. Yes, I borrow ideas constantly
from other media. You almost have to. The originality is in the
presentation. I wasn't out to slam you, I was just curious that you were
going on about not being original, and some of the other ideas were a
little stale, *to me* that is.
> No, he doesn't kill him. He let's him go to live a new life- one that
>doesn't involve killing or stealing. He's been given a second chance to
>enjoy life with his family. (Why- you could say I inadvertantly 'stole' the
>idea from A Christmas Carol)
>
With this one, I was *comparing* it (or trying to) to that scene from the
Princess Bride, because I would absolutely let one of my players get away
with that scene. However, I could also see the monologue you just wrote
being said with bitterness and bile in the character's voice, just to see
the fear and realization in the villain's eyes right before he blew his
head off.
I'm glad that your hero (even if it is just an example) didn't kill him,
and gave him a second chance. Those are the kinds of heroes I would like
in my games.
I'm sorry that my response seemed overly critical to you. The reason that
I wrote so much was to be fair and try and respond to all that you wrote.
I'll try and phrase my posts more concisely from now on.
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 22:27:48 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures- Breaking up the monotony...
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At 07:42 PM 12/7/97 -0500, "Case" wrote:
>>Bank robberies, yeah, guilty as charged. Sometimes, you just *don't* have
>>a scenario... that, and fights in a shopping mall.
>
>I think you may have somehow taken my comments personally. I'm not attacking
>you.
I'm glad to hear it, although I really didn't think you were. I was saying
that I, too, have fallen into this "bank robbery" trap too often...
>I don't even know you. There's nothing wrong with four color adventures if
>that's what you really like. I was only suggesting alternative ideas to
>GM/Players who felt the same way....
>
I like alternative ideas. Again, it seems that *I've* come off the wrong
way in my replies. I'm trying to rein it in.
>>>(a) A platoon of space marines is sent to the Mars to quell a major civil
>>>disobedience when they stumble upon a strange discovery...
>>>
>>How is this *not* tired? I'm sorry, but I've seen it... and it doesn't
>>really fit the superhero mold *at all*... unless you're talking
>>space-faring supers, *maybe*. For a Hero game, sure... pretty easy.
>
>Superhero 'mold'. To me, your use of that phrase pretty much sums up the
>point I'm trying to make. Something must be done about the superhero 'mold'.
>
Okay, I guess I'm not getting the point, then. Is this a definition of
terms disagreement? When I think of Supers, it's usually crime-fighting,
world-saving stuff. I usually don't think of space marines as *super*
heroes, although it would well be within the realm of heroism.
Would it be possible for you to elaborate, please?
>>I'm sorry, but I don't see how this is much of a plot hook. Are the
>>players the guards? If so, how do they get drawn into the intrigue? I can
>>see them sitting on their rears eating donuts, guarding a guy who isn't
>>going to escape... maybe once they get there?
>>
> Of course you don't see a plot hook. You don't want to. Why are you
>slamming me? I'm not sure if I came off as sarcastic to you in that original
>message I wrote or what. I was just trying to present different ideas that
>we tried that were successful. Am I presenting these ideas in the wrong
>forum? Is there another list I should be subscribing to?
>
I *do* want to, really. I see a couple of possibilities. The transport is
assaulted by well-meaning but misguided friends of the incarcerated, and he
has to fight *them* off to get taken away. The PCs get involved with the
other plot because the prisoner asks them to. It could be the prisoner is
a PC himself.
I'm not trying to slam you. I think this is all just coming out so wrong...
This forum is for you, and this, really.
> Oh- the plot hook isn't immediately obvious on purpose. I want the players
>to feel 'comfy'- or incredibly suspicious...
>
Ok. The main reason that I was asking was because I didn't know exactly
what you were getting at with it, and I was curious. That's a good thing,
honest. : )
>>> (d) Later in the Fall of 1998, I hope to have put together Champions 'Toy
>>>Story' spinoff- where the the protagonists play children's toys. The whos
>>>and whys aren't quite sketched out yet.
>>>
>>Um, yeah. I guess you could do it. Didn't the Micronauts have to pose as
>>kids toys? Or was it just that their ship was always mistaken for such?
>
>You got me there. I guess it was dumb for me to even suggest it.
>
I wasn't trying to say that. I was mentioning a possibility... I know I
phrased it wrong. I don't know if that idea would be for me, and I've
never thought of it, so I was curious about the thinking behind it. That's
all.
>>> (f) The adventure I'm debuting for Dreamation 1998- where you finally
>get
>>>to play the super villians. (We did the playtesting for it last night it
>was
>>>the best adventure I've ever done in 14 years of GMing!)
>>>
>>I've been trying to get a good supervillain adventure up for awhile... can
>>you fill us in? I think it could be great... but it's not *necessarily*
>>original, either. DC and Marvel have both had out villain books before, I
>>believe. One of the newer Teen Titans villain groups is getting a one-shot
>>this month, actually...
>
> To be honest- I'm a little reluctant now...Everything I've typed has either
>been shot done or insulted...
> :(
>
I *would* like to hear it. (And *not* because I want to insult it or shoot
it down, Case.) I was just pointing out that you were saying these were
different than the "four color" 'mold' that you wanted to get away from.
Some of them are, but I'm not sure if they're completely outside the
'mold'. Maybe that's what you want, is to take that further step.
- Jerry
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:40:28 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: CHAR: Shaggy
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> Although through the years Scooby-Doo (the show) continued on a
> downhill slide until it became Shaggy, Scooby and Scrappy stumbling into
> a random storefront, only to be chased by a monster for 22 minutes,
> there was a comeback.
Gee, and I thought I was the only one to notice this.
> "A Pup Named Scooby-Doo" was an EXCELENT parody/homage to the
> original series, starring all the 'kids' as kids. I thoroughly abhor
Never watched it, actually.
> the entire genre of the "___-kids" rash of several years ago, but this
I don't know -- Tiny Toons was hillarious, and Muppet Babies had
some really good voice talents working on it, as well as the (quite)
amusing movie clips.
> show surpassed said shortcoming and shone out as a show which celebrated
> all the good of Scooby-Doo and reveled in the genre of The Cartoon.
Hmmm. I'll try to check it out. At least that's some consolation
after what they did to my Transformers. (Beast Wars, shudder.)
> We now return you to your regularly scheduled RPG topic(s)
Yes, now we do.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:43:43 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures
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>
> > I was wondering if anyone was interested in talking about their _role
> >playing experiences_ in the Champions universe. How many people still play
> >the 4-color brand of Champions? We used to play 4-color adventures for the
> >longest time, until we got into a terrible rut- playing every tired cliche
> >in the book
>
> My advice: Watch the news and read the newspapers and get ideas from
> there. True, many ideas aren't really 4 colorish, but it can make for some
> interesting Dark Champions adventures. In fact, I'm working on one such
> idea as I write this.
Exactly. One example, while not exactly Champions: In a White
Wolf Vampire campaign, the GM based a story around the crashing of that
commuter plain a few years back in Gary, Indiana. Something about some
big inconnu thing.
-Tim Gilberg
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight (Was Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 19:50:04 -0800
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On Friday, December 05, 1997 1:36 PM, Michael Surbrook wrote:
<snip>
>The fact that I am hanging in the air is not a special effect.
Whatever is
>keeping me that way is. If you cannot detect what it is that is
holding me
>aloft, I need IPE on my Flight.
Long ago, in the descriptions of special effects, Flight was
specifically stated to be able to be a simple lifting into the air
without visible support. This was not before IPE.
As usual, they neglected to state whether or not this was the same in
the new 4th Ed. rules.
>Or can I get IPE for free on my Energy Blast? I mean, you can see
the
>damage it does, and hear the breaking of things I hit, etc.
Good point, but not quite the same. A key part of a visible EB is that
it shows you clearly where it is coming from. This does not apply to
flight. A Force Field with IPE has the advantage that your attackers
do not know if you are protected or not at any moment. This, also,
does not apply to flight.
I don't necessarily disagree, but it isn't that cut and dried.
Filksinger
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 21:52:13 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight (Was Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint)
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Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>
>
> As far as the wooshing goes, a glider might be a good example to consider.
> I don't really have any firsthand experience with those, but my guess
> would be that they don't really woosh. Of course, they're probably
> relatively slow too.
And, of course, Gliding normally costs no END, therefore is IPE by
default. My word! Do you think that this may have been intentional?
;-)
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 22:12:53 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight (Was Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint)
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qts wrote:
>
> On Sat, 6 Dec 1997 22:40:29 -0500 (EST), Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>
> >> >On a related topic, I have heard pretty convincing arguments that a
> >> >human-sized object breaking the sound barrier would *not* cause a
> >> >significant sonic boom
[rejoinders omitted to save bandwidth]
> >boom wouldn't do as much damage as a low flying jet, due to the lesser
> >amount of displaced air?
>
> This depends upon how you define significant, then, I suppose. My take
> is that if you *want* your hero to cause damage, just take a linked <g>
> EB vs PD. OTOH if you want your PC to go supersonic without being
> heard, you must take IPE: Hearing
On the third hand, a sufficiently intense visible SFX can have measurable
(albeit small) game effects. Looking *directly* at a lightning bolt
could result in spots in front of your eyes for a few seconds (1D6 Flash
attack, only reduces CV/PER by 2. A sonic boom can rattle teacups or
break small fragile objects (1/2D6 EB, large Area of Effect).
IMHO the intensity of the light, sound, etc. that a visible power
produces increases monotonically (and often proportionately) with the
active point total of the power. Equivalently, from a game-balance
perspective, I am willing to give people free side effects around 10% of
the active total of the power in question. These effects will generally
be irrelevant to PCs, except as plot hooks, comic relief and the
occasional creative use of powers, such as using a Sonic Boom to attack
the Crystal Creature, which has a BODY Vulnerability to sonics.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Any Published Champions Speedsters?
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 22:57:58 -0800
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On Sunday, December 07, 1997 12:41 PM, Rook wrote:
>Hello;
> In my quest for info on Speedsters I have one more question.
>
>Are they any Speedsters published in any Champions books. So far I've
>been unable to find any.
>
>Any edition of the game will do.
The Great Supervillain Contest had The Dash, who was a speedster. He
had an extremely small flying girlfriend named, I believe, Microwave.
She liked to hide in his collar under his hair. If he got knocked out,
she would fly him to safety.
The book suggested that if a player asked, "How can I get flight that
activates when I am unconscious and flies me to safety?" that the GM
reply, "Ask The Dash" and grin evilly.<eg>
Filksinger
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Fifth Edition Hero Syste
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 23:45:59 -0800
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On Wednesday, December 03, 1997 6:17 PM, Trevor Barrie wrote:
<snip>
>
>They do more BODY, comparable STUN, and get a form of AVLD for free.
>Against that we have that they can't be spread which, on its own,
isn't
>even enough to merit a -1/4 Limitation. Doesn't seem balanced to me.
In the Digital Heroes archives at the Hero Games website
(www.herogames.com), there is an article on optional rules for EBs.
For a +1/4 Advantage, they suggest that an EB can be exactly the same
as it is now, but all damage is done as killing damage. For a -1/4
Limitation, it loses the ability to bounce or spread, and this is
supposed to balance it. The end result is supposed to be a EB that
looses the "stun lottery" effect, but is otherwise equivalent to the
present RKA (and the same price as a normal EB).
Filksinger
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures- Breaking up the monotony...
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 23:48:13 -0800
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On Sunday, December 07, 1997 4:09 PM, Case wrote:
<snip>
>
> To be honest- I'm a little reluctant now...Everything I've typed has
either
>been shot done or insulted...
> :(
>
Don't give up. I don't think any real insult was intended. As for
shooting things down, this list is good at that. The other poster
didn't prove your ideas worthless, the poster just showed that _he_
didn't like your ideas. That doesn't change the fact that they are
perfectly good ideas.
Filksinger
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 23:53:52 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures- Breaking up the monotony...
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Case wrote (albeit not in this order):
> To be honest- I'm a little reluctant now...Everything I've typed has either
> been shot done or insulted...
> :(
Oh, come on now! I have been catching up on a thousand-message backlog and
have just read this entire thread end-to-end. Most of the comments that you
have gotten strike me, an uninvolved observer, as respectful and potentially
helpful. I am not sure for what you were looking: it seems rather strange to
put forth ideas for comment and criticism and then to expect only positive
comments.
> point I'm trying to make. Something must be done about the superhero 'mold'.==> my emphasis ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Why *must* something be done? Is this a moral obligation? Is the entire hobby
in danger of imminent collapse if we don't all immediately abandon our current
methods of running campaigns and adopt your ideas? Do you honestly believe
that you are the first to propose transcending the boundaries of the genre
conventions that you critique?
When one places an imperative statement in the passive voice, as you did, most
readers will interpret the writer as intending a universal imperative: a
rallying cry and a moral demand for one and all to do a thing for the good of
the community.
Something must be done to prevent nuclear war!
Something must be done to reduce racism in America!
What I hope you meant to say was that *you* wish to get away from pure
four-color adventures. That is fine, and there is *plenty* of source material
out there. I would personally *choke* if I attempted to run a pure four-color
campaign, although I can happily play in one. Just remember that, whatever
idea you propose, 1/3 of those who respond disagree on principle, 1/3 will have
seen it before so often that they are bored with it, and the rest will like the
idea, but will probably weigh in with ideas of their own or suggestions for
improvements.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 97 08:26:53 GMT
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From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Stephen McGinness)
Subject: Re: Any Published Champions Speedsters?
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At 10:57 PM 7/12/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>The Great Supervillain Contest had The Dash, who was a speedster. He
>had an extremely small flying girlfriend named, I believe, Microwave.
>She liked to hide in his collar under his hair. If he got knocked out,
>she would fly him to safety.
The girlfriend was called The Dot, I think trying to get some relationship
to the Morse Code......??
The Dash was the one I think of when I think of published speedsters....
>Filksinger
Stephen
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 97 08:40:36 GMT
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From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Stephen McGinness)
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures
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At 12:59 AM 7/12/97 -0500, Case wrote:
> I was wondering if anyone was interested in talking about their _role
>playing experiences_ in the Champions universe. How many people still play
>the 4-color brand of Champions? We used to play 4-color adventures for the
>longest time, until we got into a terrible rut- playing every tired cliche
>in the book
Think of the problem that authors have. _Every_ story must have been done
thousands of times, how do I sell this one?? Usually it's in the effects the
plot has on the characters in the story. I don't think that your question
has been phrased properly, you may think that the genre (four colour) is
causing the problem when there is more that could be done to make the genre
enjoyable. Obviously if you don't like four colour then you should not
continue to play it, personally I don't like dark genres at all - so I don't
play 'em.
The best way to get out of the rut is to try to ensure that that your series
of adventures become a campaign and that there seems to be logical and
coherent thread running through all of the games.
The hoary old hostage scenario can take on a whole new meaning when you
actually care whether the hostage lives or dies, usually because you have
invested time and effort into fleshing out the character, not because your
disads tell you so.
>From your postings over the weekend I'd say that (and this is pure
speculation based on my own experience) your current game is _not_ campaign
based though the same characters might be involved game after game and you
don't enjoy the four colour stuff enough to try to make it so. You feel more
enthused by the Dark Champions genre, so may be more inclined to make that
work. I hope you do.
There is nothing more enjoyable than a campaign game that works, where the
characters become more than numbers on a sheet of paper, and you _know_
hostage man will duck left because you _have_ done this so many times before!
> -CaseMan
>
Stephen
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 09:30:35 +0000 (GMT)
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> I've been reading this and thinking hard about it (always a sign that I have
> other _far_ more important things to be doing!!) and this gave me an idea.
> In the comics there are usually drawn special effects, usually to try and
> give you some idea that a power is being used. Other people often deduce the
> nature of the powers even though there is no way you would normally think of
> these things. Perhaps when you have a power then if it is not invisible and
> you can't think of obvious special effects for all three senses then it
> means it is subject to being worked out by _common_ _sense_, e.g., an INT
> roll or something.
I like that. That's a cool idea.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
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Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 05:35:14 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight
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At 10:41 AM 12/8/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>Maybe you've felt that way because you've applied it more strictly than
>the writers intended.
I apply it as it's written -- no more, no less. If they intended it less
strict, they should have written something else.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 06:07:17 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Shaggy
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At 09:40 PM 12/7/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>> "A Pup Named Scooby-Doo" was an EXCELENT parody/homage to the
>> original series, starring all the 'kids' as kids. I thoroughly abhor
>> the entire genre of the "___-kids" rash of several years ago, but this
>
> I don't know -- Tiny Toons was hillarious, and Muppet Babies had
>some really good voice talents working on it, as well as the (quite)
>amusing movie clips.
Uh, just as a point of fact, the Tiny Toons aren't exactly part of this
group, in that the characters aren't "younger" Bugs, Daffy, etc., but
simply junior counterparts to the senior Loony Toons characters. (I have a
particular affection for Plucky Duck myself -- ironically, the Baby Plucky
toons in particuarl.)
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Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 06:22:42 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight
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At 11:21 AM 12/7/97 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote:
>At 07:38 AM 12/6/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>> But that doesn't answer my question. Apparently you misunderstood it,
>>so I'll state it more specifically: what real advantage, either combat or
>>campaign oriented, does a character who flies by "force of will" have over
>>one who, for example, is surrounded by little green spheres when he flies,
>>especially in light of the brief discussion of Flight special effects under
>>"Special Effects" in the "General Rules" section of "Powers" (HSR, p 53,
>>first column, last paragraph)?
>
>1) For one example, see my comments in another post, where force of will
>flight can be used to trick people into walking into a trap (quicksand that
>Our Hero appears to be "standing" on).
>
>2) Here's another one: protecting secret IDs. If Superman is pushed out a
>window, he can use his flight to slow his fall and "catch" a convenient
>outcropping -- "Lucky for you that ledge was there, Clark, you could have
>been killed!" Green Lantern tries the same trick, and everyone watching
>knows he's Green Lantern, because he surrounds himself with that trademark
>glowing green aura when he kicks in the flight.
>
>3) As Rat has pointed out a half-dozen times (frankly, IMO whenever Rat and
>I actually AGREE on something, it should be taken as gospel ;] ;] ;]), the
>distinction makes a big difference in terms of stealth issues. Lots easier
>for Maxima to sneak up on someone than Rocket Red.
>
>4) As Robert West illustrated in an incredibly well-written post, it also
>makes a big difference to people trying to COUNTERACT those powers. SFX
>give clues to the mechanisms behind powers. If I see someone flying with
>wings, I'm going to think I can stop him from flying by 'clipping' them.
>Rockets can be clogged, magnetic manipulation can be disrupted, etc. But to
>figure out these countermeasures, I have to be able to detect the measure in
>the first place.
>
>I don't think there's really much question that the guy with force-of-will
>flight is better off. I will admit, it's debatable whether he's that MUCH
>better off. I've often felt that Invisible is rather overpriced, at least
>in regard to non-attack/damaging/whathaveyou powers like movement modes.
Now, THAT not only answers my question (I'm still trying to figure out
the "football team without a quarterback" remark you made previously), but
it convinces me of your argument (and would have even without the help of
other posters, including Robert).
Thank you. :-]
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Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 06:26:16 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Regenerating limbs
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At 07:13 PM 12/7/97 -0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>At 06:49 PM 12/7/97 EST, Egyptoid wrote:
>>In a message dated 12/6/97 10:06:37 PM, rholding@ActOnline.com.au wrote:
>>>> I usually allow a +1/2 "House Rule" advantage, "Regrows Limbs," which can
>>>> be applied to REC, Aid (with the Healing option), or Regeneration.
>>>And this is written where? Certainly not under the description of
>>>regeneration in the BBB.
>>
>>I guess I missed the limb-severing portion of the damage rules.
>>Shall I whip out my Role-Master crit conversions for Hero? :)
>>
>Aah! Isn't this the system that, in a fist-fight, generally comes up with
>"Black eye" as a result for every other punch? My brother once got 3 of
>'em in one fight...
>
>Oh, and the ever popular "Disemboweled" result... that one comes up a lot,
>too, right?
You can certainly tell it's a fantasy game when someone gets three black
eyes in a fistfight, but the other guy gets disemboweled.
And on another thread, someone had three hands! (Sure, they're
figurative hands, but still...)
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Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 06:28:00 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Regenerating limbs
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At 10:13 PM 12/8/97 -0800, Rick Holding wrote:
>-- Bob Greenwade wrote:
><<Your bit>>
>> >> The last I saw, officially, no. For character concepts that need
this,
>> >> I usually allow a +1/2 "House Rule" advantage, "Regrows Limbs," which
can
>> >> be applied to REC, Aid (with the Healing option), or Regeneration.
>> ><<My bit>>
>> >And this is written where? Certainly not under the description of
>> >regeneration in the BBB.
>> <<Your bit, again>>
>> It's not written anywhere. That's what makes it a house rule, Rick.
>
>Sorry, my fault. The bit I was asking about was the no limb regeneration.
Your
>+1/2 "regrows limbs" was clearly labeled as a house rule. You said "The
last I
>saw, officially, no." I was wanting to know where it had been made official.
Oh, sorry. Shared fault there, actually.
I think this was in Third Edition Champions, and it may also be in the
Champions FAQ (as I'm sure Rat and two or three others will either confirm
or deny).
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Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 06:32:25 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Regenerating limbs
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At 10:34 PM 12/8/97 -0800, Rick Holding wrote:
>> Since humans do not, in most campaigns, routinely regrow limbs, this
>> implies that the Transform in question is nor reversed by normal BODY
>> recovery; therefore standard Regeneration would not work. It would be
>> perfectly appropriate to define a SFX for Regeneration that works against
>> (and only against) Transforms that represent Amputations, and to require
>> that all amputation Transforms include Regeneration/Limb as one of the
>> reversal conditions.
>
> Humans do not, in most campaigns, regernerate limbs because nobody
>looses them! Okay, broad statement, I'll admit. But I certainly have not
>seen anybody lose a limb in the 10+ years that I have been playing.
I've seen it happen twice in 15 years.
Once, a Justice, Inc. character lost his left leg after it got shot,
bitten, and spiked in three different encounters in one day. (I'm actually
not sure whether that leg could have been saved, though; he was being
rushed to the hospital after the main body of the adventure was over, and
the group never reconvened after that in spite of the fact that it's
arguably the best adventure I've ever played in.)
The strangest ever, though, was the time that I, as GM, had the players
surrounded by bandits. Most of them were killed or captured, but one got
away with the loss of his left arm. Purely by the roll of the dice, I had
introduced a literal one-armed bandit into my campaign.
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 06:43:52 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Locks
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At 06:43 PM 12/7/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>When I lost my only set of keys to a car I had just bought, I called a
>locksmith. He took a blank key and a file, put the key in the lock,
>wiggled it, examined the marks this made, and filed it with the
>cylindrical file.
>
>It took two tries and probably twenty minutes, but the key works
>perfectly. Better than most cheaply copied keys I've had made at the
>local Fred Meyer store. (A local "has everything" store, like Walmart
>but with a full grocery store as well.)
Well, now all Northwesterners on the list know that you're from the
area; Fred Meyer stores are located throughout Oregon and Washington.
Trivium: It's my understanding that the Fred Meyer department store
here in Corvallis was the first store to put snacks, small gadgets, and
popular weekly magazines at the checkstands. If someone else has solid
information that contradicts this, I'll take it, but I'm acquainted with a
fellow who claims that it was actually his idea.
>A West Coast ring a few years ago didn't have an unusual theft method,
>but did have an unusual way of getting their money. They would steal
>brand new luxury cars and strip them. The insurance would pay off the
>car in full, and the stripped hulk would be sold at auction. They
>would buy the car, and put the parts back on it. The sale made the VIN
>clear and legal, so they could sell it at legit prices, instead of the
>low prices that hot cars get because they can be spotted on a simple
>traffic stop.
I encourage this line of conversation. Please -- virtually every post
here is adding something to TUSV!
Say, does anyone know offhand what the standard locations are for the
VIN? I know there's one on the dashboard, and I think there's one on the
engine block...
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 06:45:51 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Any Published Champions Speedsters?
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At 01:09 PM 12/7/97 -0800, Rook wrote:
>Hello;
> In my quest for info on Speedsters I have one more question.
>
>Are they any Speedsters published in any Champions books. So far I've
>been unable to find any.
>
>Any edition of the game will do.
The ones I know of offhand:
Blue Streak, of Prism, in Champions Presents.
Rush, a Sanctuary staffer, originally in Neutral Ground and updated
(though deceased) in Classic Organizations.
Fast Forward, of the Cyberknights, in Allies (fastest ever published for
Champions).
Vibron, in Classic Enemies (a low-level speedster, but he technically
qualifies).
Minute Man, of GOSH Team D, in Golden Age Champions.
Veltro, of the Italian Legion, also in Golden Age Champions.
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Reply-To: "Jeff Tolle" <Trigon@msn.com>
From: "Jeff Tolle" <trigon@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Any Published Champions Speedsters?
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:10:13 -0500
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So....
I guess there is a Mrs.. Dash!!!!
Sorry
Jeff Tolle
-----Original Message-----
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Monday, December 08, 1997 3:20 AM
Subject: Re: Any Published Champions Speedsters?
>On Sunday, December 07, 1997 12:41 PM, Rook wrote:
>
>
>>Hello;
>> In my quest for info on Speedsters I have one more question.
>>
>>Are they any Speedsters published in any Champions books. So far I've
>>been unable to find any.
>>
>>Any edition of the game will do.
>
>
>The Great Supervillain Contest had The Dash, who was a speedster. He
>had an extremely small flying girlfriend named, I believe, Microwave.
>She liked to hide in his collar under his hair. If he got knocked out,
>she would fly him to safety.
>
>The book suggested that if a player asked, "How can I get flight that
>activates when I am unconscious and flies me to safety?" that the GM
>reply, "Ask The Dash" and grin evilly.<eg>
>
>Filksinger
>
>
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:14:35 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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>
> Greetings, list lurkers and readers. I wanted to introduce myself briefly. I
> am Mark Arsenault, head of Gold Rush Games. As we're getting geared up to
> release San Angelo: City of Heroes (the first paper supplement for Champions
> 4th Ed in a loooong time) I thought I would get on this list and get some
> feedback from you folks.
>
> Specifically, I am wondering if anyone here downloaded the SA:CoH preview
> chapters. If so, are there any comments? Or any questions of me regarding this
> new product line?
>
Well, I haven't downloaded it myself. But I do have a few comments
and questions.
The first is a general one.
1. Where have you people been? I haven't seen any Hero, GRG, or Atlas people
in here since Fuzion came out. It's like we were totally abandoned.
I understand and accept the 'support is in the form of PDF files
thing'. Though I don't like it... But to totally disapear from Hero's
public forum looks pretty bad. And then to only re-appear in order
to promote new products is even worse. I'm more concerned with
Steve P.'s lack of presense than yours. But I assumed when joining
here that it would be a good place to get 'official' answers. Yet
it's been a void.
Now on to your product:
2. So it's a fictional city. Would you say it's got a more Marvel, DC, or
Image feel to it? When I think fictional cities my mind thinks
4-color DC.
3. Totally new Universe? In this 'verse there's no "Hudson City" off in another
state somewhere? (like Metropolis and Gotham).
4. Is this the beginning of something (providing sales justify)? Or a
one-shot Tangent Universe like Strike Force was?
5. What kind of power level will it go for?
On to your Hero License:
6. Do you or anybody else hold the rights to print more BBB's when the
current stock runs out?
7. How is that current stock doing? Are there still many copies available?
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:24:26 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight (Was Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint)
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On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, Robert A. West wrote:
> Bill Svitavsky wrote:
> >
> > As far as the wooshing goes, a glider might be a good example to consider.
> > I don't really have any firsthand experience with those, but my guess
> > would be that they don't really woosh. Of course, they're probably
> > relatively slow too.
>
> And, of course, Gliding normally costs no END, therefore is IPE by
> default. My word! Do you think that this may have been intentional?
> ;-)
>
Actually, no. Powered flight wouldn't be the determining factor for a
wooshing noise, as I understand it. While at times a gliding object might
be going the same speed as the wind, and hence not woosh at all, at times
the power is coming from momentum and/or gravity, making the glider move
much faster than the surrounding air.
It seems to me that size and speed are the determining factors for
whooshing. Why should a character Flying at 10" per phase make any more
noise than a character Gliding at 10", if his thrust is silent?
As I said, I don't have any good firsthand experience with gliders. It
wouldn't surprise me if up close one might hear a little noise coming from
one, but I doubt you'd hear much very far away.
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com>
Subject: TUSV: Hanging Onto the Edge
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:32:15 -0500
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>>>A character who falls off a moving vehicle roll the damage
>>>as though the vehicle had done a Move By on him
>>What if the vehicle is going non-combat? Have you decided on the
>>non-combat move by and move through rules?
>Oh, and Move Bys and Move Throughs at noncombat speeds are handled just
>like normal Move Bys and Move Throughs, except that OCV and DCV are
>halved (or DCV determined by velocity) before any other modifiers.
I was asking more about the damage from NCM slams...
A vehicle with 30" and 32xNCM is moving at full NCM speed and slams
right into a building. How much damage does the vehicle (and the
building) take? Is it 10d6? 320d6? Something else?
Dave Mattingly
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 97 15:40:34 GMT
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Stephen McGinness)
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight
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At 11:21 AM 12/7/97 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote:
>4) As Robert West illustrated in an incredibly well-written post, it also
>makes a big difference to people trying to COUNTERACT those powers. SFX
>give clues to the mechanisms behind powers. If I see someone flying with
>wings, I'm going to think I can stop him from flying by 'clipping' them.
>Rockets can be clogged, magnetic manipulation can be disrupted, etc. But to
>figure out these countermeasures, I have to be able to detect the measure in
>the first place.
I've been reading this and thinking hard about it (always a sign that I have
other _far_ more important things to be doing!!) and this gave me an idea.
In the comics there are usually drawn special effects, usually to try and
give you some idea that a power is being used. Other people often deduce the
nature of the powers even though there is no way you would normally think of
these things. Perhaps when you have a power then if it is not invisible and
you can't think of obvious special effects for all three senses then it
means it is subject to being worked out by _common_ _sense_, e.g., an INT
roll or something.
Just a thought......
Stephen
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:41:39 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight
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On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, Vox Ludator! wrote:
> At 07:38 AM 12/6/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> 1) For one example, see my comments in another post, where force of will
> flight can be used to trick people into walking into a trap (quicksand that
> Our Hero appears to be "standing" on).
>
Yes, this is an advantage to force of will flight. On the other hand, a
glowing flyer might be able to trick someone into believing they have a
force field, or are radioactive. They also might be able to see a little
in a dark room. The benefits of special effects.
> 2) Here's another one: protecting secret IDs. If Superman is pushed out a
> window, he can use his flight to slow his fall and "catch" a convenient
> outcropping -- "Lucky for you that ledge was there, Clark, you could have
> been killed!" Green Lantern tries the same trick, and everyone watching
> knows he's Green Lantern, because he surrounds himself with that trademark
> glowing green aura when he kicks in the flight.
>
I don't know about Kyle, but Hal didn't have to glow when he flew, and
often didn't. The glowing was generally his force field. (Of course, there
is that OIF to consider.) This is a good example to support my point that
most comics flyers don't have visible effects on their flight.
>
> I don't think there's really much question that the guy with force-of-will
> flight is better off. I will admit, it's debatable whether he's that MUCH
> better off. I've often felt that Invisible is rather overpriced, at least
> in regard to non-attack/damaging/whathaveyou powers like movement modes.
>
Maybe you've felt that way because you've applied it more strictly than
the writers intended. I don't dispute that there are some minor advantages
to force of will flight (though there can be minor advantages to any
special effect.) I simply don't believe the advantages are worth charging
for, especially when it could hurt the feel of the genre.
I have a question for the strict IPE for force-of-will flight GM's. In
games where you require this, do many people buy IPE? Or do most people
choose to glow (or whatever)?
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com>
Subject: Making the Speedster
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:46:04 -0500
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My time control article at
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/1905/haym12.html has various
speedster tricks included, and a character write-up.
Dave Mattingly
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:46:41 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight (Was Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint)
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On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, Robert A. West wrote:
> qts wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, 6 Dec 1997 22:40:29 -0500 (EST), Bill Svitavsky wrote:
> >
> > >> >On a related topic, I have heard pretty convincing arguments that a
> > >> >human-sized object breaking the sound barrier would *not* cause a
> > >> >significant sonic boom
>
> [rejoinders omitted to save bandwidth]
>
> > >boom wouldn't do as much damage as a low flying jet, due to the lesser
> > >amount of displaced air?
> >
> > This depends upon how you define significant, then, I suppose. My take
> > is that if you *want* your hero to cause damage, just take a linked <g>
> > EB vs PD. OTOH if you want your PC to go supersonic without being
> > heard, you must take IPE: Hearing
>
> On the third hand, a sufficiently intense visible SFX can have measurable
> (albeit small) game effects. Looking *directly* at a lightning bolt
> could result in spots in front of your eyes for a few seconds (1D6 Flash
> attack, only reduces CV/PER by 2. A sonic boom can rattle teacups or
> break small fragile objects (1/2D6 EB, large Area of Effect).
>
Absolutely. Moreover, sonic booms can be as much a disadvantage as an
advantage. If Superman causes a sonic boom every time he goes supersonic,
he's not likely to do that on the streets of Metropolis. If the Flash
does, he's in *big* trouble.
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Locks
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:47:18 -0500
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>Say, does anyone know offhand what the standard locations are for the
>VIN? I know there's one on the dashboard, and I think there's one on
>the engine block...
Some cars have one on the inside of the car door.
Dave Mattingly
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:24:39 -0500 (EST)
From: Mikhael Bornstein - AERE/W94 <mbornste@acs.ryerson.ca>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Any Published Champions Speedsters?
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I don't think that anyone has mentioned Gazelle and Lightspeed from
Champions of the North.
Mikhael
On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, Rook wrote:
> Hello;
> In my quest for info on Speedsters I have one more question.
>
> Are they any Speedsters published in any Champions books. So far I've
> been unable to find any.
>
> Any edition of the game will do.
>
>
> --
> Rook
>
> Super Hero Links Page:
> http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
>
> My Champions Webpage is at:
> http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
> Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
> http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
>
>
>
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 08:38:55 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Regenerating limbs
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Rick Holding wrote:
>
> -- Robert A. West wrote:
> >
> > Rick Holding wrote:
> > >
> > > Bob Greenwade wrote:
> > > >
> > > > At 09:59 AM 12/6/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
> > > > > Do characters with regeneration regenerate limbs? . . .
> > > >
> > > > The last I saw, officially, no. . . .
> > >
> > > And this is written where? Certainly not under the description of
> > > regeneration in the BBB.
> >
> > Actually, the point is that the book says nowhere that Regeneration can
> > regrow limbs. Powers do what they are stated to do, modulo special
> > effects.
> > Can not the loss of a limb be represented by loss of body points?
IMHO, no, on multiple grounds. First, I don't see why a person minus an
arm should be any easier to kill than a normal person. If you blow off
my arm, I will likely go into shock and die, but if I survive, the
overall system integrity that keeps me alive will be fairly unimpaired.
Second, on game balance grounds, should a character lose a limb, I would
not want to impose the double penalty of losing BODY points as well.
Third, all the hit location mechanisms (BODYx, Impairing, Disabling)
on pp. 163-5 are based on the affected area's taking a portion of the
character's *total* BODY, not of an assigned fraction as in Runequest and
similar systems. IMHO, there is an attempt being made to distinguish
between "sectional" BODY and "systemic" BODY. Fourth, although disabling
wounds to the chest and head list permanent CHAR losses as an effect,
none are listed for limbs.
Thus, I would hold that a Drain BODY cannot be used for this purpose.
Drain Movement might have an SFX of injuring a leg, but severing the
limb is not generally a reasonable special effect, unless regrowing limbs
is an everyman power.
> > Since humans do not, in most campaigns, routinely regrow limbs . . .
>
> Humans do not, in most campaigns, regernerate limbs because nobody
> looses them! Okay, broad statement, I'll admit. But I certainly have not
> seen anybody lose a limb in the 10+ years that I have been playing.
You have never seen an amputee as an NPC? Never seen a PC take amputee
as a Physical Limitation? Never had a touching scene visiting a victim
of the MultiBomber who lost a hand, eye or fingers? Do these people
regrow their limbs from ordinary healing? Assuming that the same healing
rules apply, in principle, to NPCs as to PCs, I think that my statement
is fair and true.
As for my point about Transform being the "only way under standard rules"
to represent limb loss, I should have clarified that statement as
"standard Superhero rules," since I believe that Disabling is an option
not normally recommended for Superhero campaigns, except as a way to get
the agents out of the way faster.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 12:42:16 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Shaggy
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> >> "A Pup Named Scooby-Doo" was an EXCELENT parody/homage to the
> >> original series, starring all the 'kids' as kids. I thoroughly abhor
> >> the entire genre of the "___-kids" rash of several years ago, but this
> >
> > I don't know -- Tiny Toons was hillarious, and Muppet Babies had
> >some really good voice talents working on it, as well as the (quite)
> >amusing movie clips.
>
> Uh, just as a point of fact, the Tiny Toons aren't exactly part of this
> group, in that the characters aren't "younger" Bugs, Daffy, etc., but
> simply junior counterparts to the senior Loony Toons characters.
Depends on how narrowly you define "this group", I suppose. I'd be
inclined to lump them all together, myself, even if they aren't
technically comparable.
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 12:46:57 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures- Breaking up the monotony...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, Case wrote:
> >>(b) Correctional officers are in charge of transporting a superpowered
> >>pyromanic across country. Funny thing is, the pyromanic doesn't want out-
> >>he NEEDS to get to Florida in one piece to recue his lover at the Dade
> >>County Stronghold...
> >>
> >I'm sorry, but I don't see how this is much of a plot hook. Are the
> >players the guards? If so, how do they get drawn into the intrigue? I can
> >see them sitting on their rears eating donuts, guarding a guy who isn't
> >going to escape... maybe once they get there?
> Of course you don't see a plot hook. You don't want to. Why are you
> slamming me?
Huh? With all due respect, if you can read that message as a "slam", I
don't think you're really in a position to talk about other people only
seeing what they want to.
> To be honest- I'm a little reluctant now...Everything I've typed has either
> been shot done or insulted...
I haven't seen either of these things happen.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 08:48:25 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Hanging Onto the Edge
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 10:32 AM 12/8/97 -0500, Dave Mattingly wrote:
>>>>A character who falls off a moving vehicle roll the damage
>>>>as though the vehicle had done a Move By on him
>
>>>What if the vehicle is going non-combat? Have you decided on the
>>>non-combat move by and move through rules?
>
>>Oh, and Move Bys and Move Throughs at noncombat speeds are handled just
>>like normal Move Bys and Move Throughs, except that OCV and DCV are
>>halved (or DCV determined by velocity) before any other modifiers.
>
>I was asking more about the damage from NCM slams...
>
>A vehicle with 30" and 32xNCM is moving at full NCM speed and slams
>right into a building. How much damage does the vehicle (and the
>building) take? Is it 10d6? 320d6? Something else?
It will probably do the DEF+BODY of the building, up to 320d6. (In
other words, use the real velocity, not the combat velocity.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:01:55 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Help!!!
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> > I am needing 3 npcs for a game. One must be a Blaster, other a velocist
> > and the third a sorcerer.
>
> Uh... what is a 'velocist'?
Presumably he means what's commonly referred to as a "speedster".
> BTW: Rafael, if you have web access (or even access to Lynx)
Bit of an odd phrase, that. If he has access to Lynx, then by definition
he has web access.
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Regenerating limbs
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:03:15 +0000 (GMT)
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> But was the guy who got disemboweled able to regenerate that damage?
>
Given the views held on regeneration, and how un-comic book they seem
to be... I'd say no.
He recovered all the body but is missing his guts, yet able to live.
After all, it's a lost organ. And "Humans don't normally regrow lost" organs.
Never mind that Humans don't normally regenerate.
I think the whole regeneration topic is a special effects topic.
No-where in the rules does it say regeneration DOESN'T regenerate the body.
> >>Oh, and the ever popular "Disemboweled" result... that one comes up a lot,
> >>too, right?
> >
> > You can certainly tell it's a fantasy game when someone gets three black
> >eyes in a fistfight, but the other guy gets disemboweled.
> > And on another thread, someone had three hands! (Sure, they're
> >figurative hands, but still...)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:09:22 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, Case wrote:
> I was wondering if anyone was interested in talking about their _role
> playing experiences_ in the Champions universe. How many people still play
> the 4-color brand of Champions?
My campaigns are generally not coherent enough to be classed into a
sub-genre.:)
> We used to play 4-color adventures for the longest time, until we got into a
> terrible rut- playing every tired cliche in the book
> 1) You walk into a bank, cashing a check, when suddenly...
> 2) The government has called you all into this meeting because we
> have a top-secret mission that only YOU can handle, or course, if you are
> caught we will deny everyth...
Is this a cliche of the 4-colour genre? I would think it would seem
terribly out of place in said genre - it's more a cliche of the espionage
genre, possibly useful as a change of pace for a somewhat darkly-toned
superhero genre.
> 3) We must raid the super high-tech enemy complex, to
> (a) rescue the hostage(s)
> (b) stop the doomsday
> device/nuclear/biological/chemical/mechanical weapon
> (c) destroy it.
> (d) steal back the plans/equipment
> (e) Kill the evil, vile, manical leader
Definitely out of place for 4-colour supers IMO. You could change it to
capturing the evil, vile, maniacal leader, maybe, but to be honest I
can't think of all that many examples of complex-raiding at all in said
genre.
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:10:29 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Re: Characteristics
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Sat, 6 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> >> >Cumulative? On Mind Control? Does that really belong in a paragraph
> >> >allegedly describing the by-the-book rules?
> >>
> >> See The Ultimate Mentalist, page 77.
> >
> >Can't, I've never seen a copy of said book. The contents of the Ultimate
> >books really don't count as part of the "book rules" anyway, IMO.
>
> But at least what I was citing was by *a* book. You application of
> Armor Piercing PRE cutting PRE in half for purposes of effect, and Armor
> Piercing Mental Powers cutting EGO in half for purposes of effect, is not.
Eh? I think you have me confused with someone else.
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:24:34 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Help?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Fri, 5 Dec 1997, Todd Hanson wrote:
> > If I were building a pro-wrestler, I'd probably buy extra DCs with a
> > Limitation giving an OCV penalty proportional to the number used. The DCs
> > activated would simulate the magnitude of the move being used.
>
> You're missing the point entirely. The object wasn't to make pro wrestling as
> realistic as possible,
Well, obviously not - that would require completely redefining the
genre.:) Make pro wrestling realistic and you've just got martial arts.
> it was to allow a character to be a colorful pro wrestler/superhero.
But IMO, having moves of different magnitudes - with the lesser moves used
to set one's opponent up for the bigger ones - is fairly integral to the
pro wrestling genre; I'd want to make sure a pro wrestler character
reflects this.
> It doesn't matter what you CALL the move - what matters is the effect. I
> can say I'm using a headbutt or a forearm or kick to the chin - it's still
> my martial strike. I hit him, I do damage. If I say I'm using a bodyslam
> or an arm drag or a hurricarana, the result is still the same - I damage my
> opponent and put him on the ground.
By the same token, one could say that Johnny Storm's regular fire blasts
and his Nova Blast have the same effect, but I wouldn't respect a
character write-up which only gave him one attack and chalked the
difference up to special effects.
> If the special effects of the move say I should also hit the ground,
> then special effects say I hop back to my feet before anybody takes
> advantage of my position (wrestlers do it all the time)
OTOH, it's not unheard of for wrestlers to be attacked before getting up
from such moves. Possibly Breakfall would be a better way of simulating
this?
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:27:46 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Re: Characteristics
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Fri, 5 Dec 1997, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> > > >Cumulative? On Mind Control? Does that really belong in a paragraph
> > > >allegedly describing the by-the-book rules?
> > >
> > > See The Ultimate Mentalist, page 77.
> >
> > Can't, I've never seen a copy of said book. The contents of the Ultimate
> > books really don't count as part of the "book rules" anyway, IMO.
>
> Actually, they've basically become accepted as such,
By whom?
> mostly because they expand on areas that were under explained and under
> fleshed-out in the BBB. In this case, then example of a mind control that
> slowly affects it's target -- a valid SFX in the source material, but not
> doable in Hero.
Trivial to do in Hero. Just put a Limitation on the upper levels of your
Mind Control which states that it only kicks in after a certain number of
uses.
From: "VANSICKLE, James" <jvansickle@shl.com>
Subject: RE: Re: Regenerating limbs
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 12:57:23 -0600
Encoding: 39 TEXT
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But was the guy who got disemboweled able to regenerate that damage?
>----------
>From: Bob Greenwade[SMTP:bob.greenwade@klock.com]
>Sent: Monday, December 08, 1997 12:50 PM
>To: champ-l@omg.org
>Subject: Re: Re: Regenerating limbs
>
>At 07:13 PM 12/7/97 -0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>>At 06:49 PM 12/7/97 EST, Egyptoid wrote:
>>>In a message dated 12/6/97 10:06:37 PM, rholding@ActOnline.com.au wrote:
>>>>> I usually allow a +1/2 "House Rule" advantage, "Regrows Limbs," which
>>>>>can
>>>>> be applied to REC, Aid (with the Healing option), or Regeneration.
>>>>And this is written where? Certainly not under the description of
>>>>regeneration in the BBB.
>>>
>>>I guess I missed the limb-severing portion of the damage rules.
>>>Shall I whip out my Role-Master crit conversions for Hero? :)
>>>
>>Aah! Isn't this the system that, in a fist-fight, generally comes up with
>>"Black eye" as a result for every other punch? My brother once got 3 of
>>'em in one fight...
>>
>>Oh, and the ever popular "Disemboweled" result... that one comes up a lot,
>>too, right?
>
> You can certainly tell it's a fantasy game when someone gets three black
>eyes in a fistfight, but the other guy gets disemboweled.
> And on another thread, someone had three hands! (Sure, they're
>figurative hands, but still...)
>---
>Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
>Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
>
>
>
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Locks
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 12:52:35 -0800
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On Monday, December 08, 1997 6:44 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
<snip>
> I encourage this line of conversation. Please -- virtually every
post
>here is adding something to TUSV!
> Say, does anyone know offhand what the standard locations are for
the
>VIN? I know there's one on the dashboard, and I think there's one on
the
>engine block...
Dashboard and car door frames on some models, I believe. The engine
block number tags the engine, but
not the vehicle. Otherwise, any car with a new engine would have two
VINs.
Filksinger
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 15:53:15 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Hanging Onto the Edge
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 08:48 AM 12/8/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 10:32 AM 12/8/97 -0500, Dave Mattingly wrote:
>>>Oh, and Move Bys and Move Throughs at noncombat speeds are handled just
>>>like normal Move Bys and Move Throughs, except that OCV and DCV are
>>>halved (or DCV determined by velocity) before any other modifiers.
>>
>>I was asking more about the damage from NCM slams...
>>
>>A vehicle with 30" and 32xNCM is moving at full NCM speed and slams
>>right into a building. How much damage does the vehicle (and the
>>building) take? Is it 10d6? 320d6? Something else?
>
> It will probably do the DEF+BODY of the building, up to 320d6. (In
>other words, use the real velocity, not the combat velocity.)
>
Are you going to introduce "Confetti" rules like those in Car Wars? I
don't remember the exact formula, but it was that if a vehicle took a
certain amount of damage (a certain fraction of its weight) it would be
reduced instantly to rubble, to be dropped from 12" above the playing
surface, to allow scattering. : ) I think 320d6 would probably do it...
- Jerry
X-Sender: urklore@pop.tiac.net (Unverified)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 16:03:46 -0500
From: Urklore The Iron <urklore@tiac.net>
Subject: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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The link is a 1/2 disadvantage, but is it really?
Let's say I want to have a Hero who wields twin UZIs. Each has a 5-shot
Autofire. Normally he would have one and only fire 5 shots, if I put a link
disadvantage to one of the guns and link it to the main gun. We now have an
attack that can do TWO 5-shot autofires!! At a reduced point cost on the
second power to boot!!! Does anyone see a problem with this.
Another example is I could have a 12d6 photon blast, and link a 3d6 flash
to it as well. Now we have a 12d6 EB along with a 3d6 flash (even though it
does require another hit roll) that can be done all in one phase.
************************************************************************
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************************************************************************
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:07:29 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: CHAR: Shaggy
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> > I don't know -- Tiny Toons was hillarious, and Muppet Babies had
> >some really good voice talents working on it, as well as the (quite)
> >amusing movie clips.
>
> Uh, just as a point of fact, the Tiny Toons aren't exactly part of this
> group, in that the characters aren't "younger" Bugs, Daffy, etc., but
> simply junior counterparts to the senior Loony Toons characters. (I have a
Hmmm. Well, maybe, but they were clearly designed as younger
"stand-ins". Perhaps a bit more classy than actually having the
characters be younger, true. So what other "-baby" shows were there? I
can't think of any besides the already mentioned.
> particular affection for Plucky Duck myself -- ironically, the Baby Plucky
> toons in particuarl.)
He is rather funny, isn't he. I liked the Tiny Toons/Anamaniacs
crossover with Mindy and Elmira myself.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:09:43 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Any Published Champions Speedsters?
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> The ones I know of offhand:
>
> Blue Streak, of Prism, in Champions Presents.
Arggh! I hate this one -- I had my own named "Bluestreak" long
before picking up this product.
> Rush, a Sanctuary staffer, originally in Neutral Ground and updated
> (though deceased) in Classic Organizations.
> Fast Forward, of the Cyberknights, in Allies (fastest ever published for
> Champions).
> Vibron, in Classic Enemies (a low-level speedster, but he technically
> qualifies).
> Minute Man, of GOSH Team D, in Golden Age Champions.
> Veltro, of the Italian Legion, also in Golden Age Champions.
In Champions of the North is Gazelle, who is quite fast, and maybe
another. I'll look around and try to find more.
-Tim Gilberg
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Hanging Onto the Edge
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:44:46 -0500
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>>A vehicle with 30" and 32xNCM is moving at full NCM speed and slams
>>right into a building. How much damage does the vehicle (and the
>>building) take? Is it 10d6? 320d6? Something else?
>It will probably do the DEF+BODY of the building, up to 320d6. (In
>other words, use the real velocity, not the combat velocity.)
I don't really like that ruling (nothing against you, I've seen it in
other games and didn't like it then either).
For one, since movement is linear and damage is supposed to be
exponential, they don't jibe well. What I mean is that a 10d6 blast or
punch is defined as being twice as powerful as a 9d6 blast or punch. But
with a move through, the dice are linear, and the difference between a
10d6 and a 9d6 move through is only a linear 3".
How about I define a vehicle (missile) with 30" flight, and 32xNCM. I
also buy 320 DEF for it (say what?!?). Or else I say it's an unbreakable
focus made from Impervium, the indestructible metal. This missile can
now destroy the earth with a move through. And actually, it would only
need 1 DEF higher than the earth's body, whatever that is.
I've been considering changing Hero non-combat move throughs to doing
their normal combat move through damage plus 1d6 per NCM, so the 30"
with 32xNCM would do 10d6+32d6. It sounds more reasonable for those who
allow non-combat move throughs in their games (I don't), but I haven't
playtested it yet.
>It will probably do the DEF+BODY of the building, up to 320d6. (In
Oh yeah, shouldn't that be the lesser of the DEF+BODY of the building
and the vehicle?
Dave Mattingly
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:45:59 EST
Subject: Greetings
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Greetings, list lurkers and readers. I wanted to introduce myself briefly. I
am Mark Arsenault, head of Gold Rush Games. As we're getting geared up to
release San Angelo: City of Heroes (the first paper supplement for Champions
4th Ed in a loooong time) I thought I would get on this list and get some
feedback from you folks.
Specifically, I am wondering if anyone here downloaded the SA:CoH preview
chapters. If so, are there any comments? Or any questions of me regarding this
new product line?
Mark @ GRG
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:54:22 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Any Published Champions Speedsters?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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There's the guy in High-Tech Enemies, I just don't remember the name
right now.
Velocity ? Impulse ?
Curt Hicks
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:22:35 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Re: Characteristics
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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> > Actually, they've basically become accepted as such,
>
> By whom?
Most players, GMs, etc that I know, and many of the same of those
I talk to. Like I said, they are accepted as official "book" rules, but
not, of course, "core" rules. I.e, they are not in the one main book, so
you can't expect everyone to know them and may be expected to explain them
when using them.
>
> > mostly because they expand on areas that were under explained and under
> > fleshed-out in the BBB. In this case, then example of a mind control that
> > slowly affects it's target -- a valid SFX in the source material, but not
> > doable in Hero.
>
> Trivial to do in Hero. Just put a Limitation on the upper levels of your
> Mind Control which states that it only kicks in after a certain number of
> uses.
Yuck. That's not what I call trivial.
-Tim Gilberg
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com>
Subject: Archer and Speedster
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:23:55 -0500
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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I sent these earlier to Raf, who asked for a blaster and a speedster,
and I'm sending them to the list now, too, so y'all can go ballistic and
pick 'em apart... :)
--
Here's two of my favorite characters: a blaster (Night Archer) and a
speedster (The Flash).
Night Archer
Chars: 97
Equip: 63
Skills: 90
Total: 250
Base: 100
Disads: 150
15 STR 5
18 DEX 24
15 CON 10
15 BOD 10
18 INT 8
18 EGO 16
15 PRE 5
15 COM 2
7 PD 5
6 ED 3
4 SPD 12
6 REC
30 END
30 STN
20 Normal Maxima
5 Age 47
15 Secret ID
5 Rich Rival
5 Bad Heart (infrequent, slightly)
10 Dep: Medicine (4d6 daily)
10 DNPC Nurse 8-
10 Watched by Police 14- (less powerful, NCI)
15 Rep: ex-Villain, 11- extreme
20 H: HOHOs 14- (as powerful)
10 Dislikes Supers (common, moderate)
15 Honorable (common, strong)
10 Style: Commando
Equipment END/Charges
22 Bow & Arrow Multipower (OAF: Bow & Arrow)
2u Bow as Staff: Full Missile Deflection, 5d6 Hand-to-Hand Attack,
1" Stretching 2E
2u Sheaf Arrows: 2d6 AP RKA (recoverable) 8c
2u Flame Arrows: 1d6+1 RKA (last 1 turn until put out) 6c
2u Poison Arrows: 3d6 NND (last 1 turn until ½ phase Paramedics
roll) 4c
2u Immobilizing Arrows: 1d6 Drain versus STR and Movement (last 1
minute until bound with ½ phase Paramedics roll) 4c
2u Sleep Agent Arrows: 3d6 STUN Drain (last 1 turn until ½ phase
Paramedics roll) 8c
1u Hallucinogenic Arrows: 9d6 Mental Illusions CON-Based (last
until a CON roll is made) 4c
1u Skilled Shot: 30 STR Telekinesis (½ DCV, Can't do damage)
8c
7 +5 DEF Armor (OIF: Kevlar, Activation 14-)
2 Visual Flash Defense (OAF: Night Visor)
2 Ultraviolet Vision (OAF: Night Visor)
7 Utility Belt Multipower (OAF: Utility Belt)
1u Radios: HRRH usable by 1 other
1u Telescope: +10 Telescopic Sight
1u Smoke Bombs: 1" Darkness to normal & IR vision, last 1 minute
4c
1u Light: Change Environment @ 0 END
1u Suction Cups: Clinging, usable by 1 other
1u Gas Masks: LS: Self-Contained Breathing, usable by 1 other
1u Mini-Chute: 15" Gliding 1rc
1u Steroids: 3d6 Aid STR 8c
1u Antidote: 5d6 Dispel Poison 8c
Skills Roll
2 +1" Running
12 +4 w/ Bow & Arrows
20 +2 Overall
15 Commando Training
Cross -2 +1 10d6
Throw +0 +1 8d6+v/5; Target Falls
Block +2 +2
Disarm -1 +1 25 STR
3 Tactics 13-
3 Acrobatics 13-
3 Breakfall 13-
3 Climbing 13-
3 High Society 12-
3 Gambling 11-
3 Streetwise 12-
2 K: Archery 11-
2 Toxicology 11-
3 Stealth 13-
3 Concealment 13-
3 Paramedic 13-
2 K: Martial Arts 11-
Background: Night Archer used to be the leader of a villain group, the
Honorable Order of Humans Only (HOHO) - a group of trained and
gadget-monger normals who desired purity of the species. After six years
of battling superhumans, his heart gave out during a battle. His
followers fled, and he was taken to the hospital by the supers. He died
on the way to the hospital, but was revived by a healing hero and the
talented medical staff.
After his death experience, Night Archer turned a new leaf (and state's
evidence). Some of the most powerful HOHOs were put away, and Night
Archer is now tactical leader for the local hero group (as part of his
probation). He makes certain that the supers don't rely on only their
powers for success, but on solid training.
Tactics: Night Archer prefers to attack the non-supers such as martial
artists and gadgeteers last, except those with "weird" gadgets like
sonic boomerangs or trick arrows. He starts defensively, but will switch
to offense if he can't land an attack.
Quote: "Why am I plagued with amateurs?"
--
The Flash
10 STR
29 DEX 12
13 CON 6
11 BOD 2
14 INT 4
14 EGO 8
13 PRE 3
10 COM
6 PD 4
6 ED 3
9 SPD 6
12 REC 14
36 END 5
23 STN
15 10 10 5 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 15 10 15 10
15 Secret ID: Clark Parker
10 Rival Reporter: Lois Watson
10 Nearsighted (infrequent, great)
5 Allergies (infrequent, slight)
10 Large Appetite (frequent, slight)
10 H: Senator 8- (less powerful, NCI)
10 H: Mirror Man 8- (as powerful)
10 H: Copy Cat 8- (as powerful)
10 H: Dr. Oddity (as powerful)
10 DNPC Friends 8-
15 Code Versus Killing (common, moderate)
10 Snoop (very common, moderate)
15 Protective of Innocents (uncommon, strong)
10 Overconfident (common, strong)
10 Experience Spent (of 17)
Chars: 51
Powers: 176
Skills: 33
Total: 260
Base: 100
Disads: 160
Powers END
30 Superspeed EC
30a +20 DEX (no figured chars -0)
30b +8 SPD
30c +20" Running @ 0 END
6 Regeneration 1/Hour
5 +10 STUN (only when unconscious -1)
30 Superspeed Multipower
1u 7" Flight (costs 3x END) 3
1u 16x NCM Running {1200 mph}
1u +15" Swimming 3
1u +15" Leap 3
1u Clinging +15 STR
1u +5d6 Hand Attack 1
1u +15 STR 1
1u 1d6-1 RKA Autofire (needs any small objects) 5
1u +3 DCV (must be aware of attack)
1u +15 PD (must be aware of attack)
1u +7 DEF Force Field (must be aware of attack) 1
1u Deflection Bullets
1u Images of Self; Instant Change 1
1u 10 STR TK AE 1 Hex 1
1u CE: 1 Hex Any superspeed effect 1
Skills Roll
4 Martial Dodge +5
3 +1 w/ Move Through, Move By, Punch
2 PS: Journalist 11-
3 Speed Reading
1 Spanish
1 German
1 Perk: Press Pass
2 Contact: The Press 11-
2 K: News 11-
2 K: Supers 11-
1 Bureaucratics 8-
3 Streetwise 12-
3 Conversation 12-
3 Acting 12-
3 Disguise 11-
3 Shadowing 11-
-4 Reporter Package
Background: Back in the '50s, a small green meteor landed in Kansas. It
was kept as a museum piece for years, but it wasn't until the recent
discovery of microscopic life on Mars that this rock was also tested and
found to have life. Clark was the Planet Bugle's reporter specializing
in superhuman activity. Since no superheroes and supervillains were
known to exist before this meteor landed, he was assigned to the cover
the press conference, and investigate any possible correlation between
extraterrestrial life arriving on Earth and the appearance of
superhumans.
A small spider somehow had gotten onto the rock, and become infected
with the Kryptonian organisms. The spider sickly crawled away, and
unfortunately into an electric outlet. A power surge killed the spider,
causing the microorganisms to surge with energy. They quickly found the
nearest living being, Clark, and infected his body.
Powers: Clark is very fast. To reflect this, he took the name of The
Flash, a well known comic book speedster. He can run at a sustained
speed of 1200 mph, and can act in combat much faster than almost anyone
in the world. He can even run faster than the human eye can follow,
becoming effectively invisible.
Tactics: The Flash normally starts out defensively, with at least one of
his multipower slots on his free dodge or free rolling with the punch.
His normal attack is move by.
Appearance: The Flash no longer wears a costume similar to the comic
book character's. He now dresses in green, with a face mask.
Quote: "I bet there's something interesting over here."
--
Good luck!
Dave Mattingly
http://www.geocities.com/soho/5953
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 14:33:48 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Any Published Champions Speedsters?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 03:54 PM 12/8/97 -0600, Curt Hicks wrote:
>
>There's the guy in High-Tech Enemies, I just don't remember the name
>right now.
>
>Velocity ? Impulse ?
There is a character named Impulse in HTE, but he isn't a speedster.
You're probably confusing him with the DC Comics character of the same name.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
From: "Case" <wmpc@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures- Breaking up the monotony...
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:37:23 -0500
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>I have seen this happen a lot, so don't feel bad -- it's not you, it's just
>a kind of feeding frenzy I have seen e-mail on this and most of the other
>lists I've been privy to over the years. Something happens to people behind
>the veil of e-mail ...
>
>I thought your ideas all were interesting and had merit. Especially don't
>give up on the villain idea; we have been thinking of doing much the same
>thing. There are two major villain groups in our world; the Fourth Imperium
>(your standard world-conquerers) and Predator (a loose gang who is just out
>to make money, and will stop at nothing to get it). The campaign we were
>thinking of running was to have the players make up new members of
>Predator, who would then be given the assignment to rip off some high-tech
>weapons from the Imperium for resale to the highest bidder. The players
>then get to play completely evil characters if they want, doing whatever
>pleases them, completely out of the heroic ethos. And, it makes for some
>interesting play later, when the players' regular heroic characters
>encounter these nefarious new Predator villains! I think (hope) it will be
>a lot of fun.
Hey- I love those villain names 'Fourth Imperium' (!!) and 'Predator'. When
we first tried to do a super-villain adventure a number of years back, it
fell flat on it's face. We killed everything we saw, fought each other,
killed cops, robbed. It was like a Roman orgy. And it got old FAST. Ho-hum.
We didn't know how to do villainy right. We were all meglomaniacs vying for
power with our maniacal laughter. But it looks as if you've got the idea as
well with your plotline...
The new super-villain adventure so far has been a blast. What I've
found is making adventures for bad guys requires just as much work as one
for a superheroes. You need motivating factors, bad guys, good guys, drugs,
whores, etc....We play in a futuristic 'Road Warrior'-type setting I call
the "post-Christian Apocalypse". They extort local towns for money,
supplies. They cut truces with larger gangs to work together to go after
bigger and juicer targets like the heavily armed caravans with evangelists
earnings in them (who have Christian crusaders working for them)...
>Maybe even that isn't completely original (hey, what is?) but it is fun,
>and that's the important thing, right?
>
>Hang in there!
>
>Jeff
Like I said- I like the idea- seems original enough to me to be a good
time!
Take it easy,
-CaseMan
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 14:38:44 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: CHAR: Shaggy
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> Hmmm. Well, maybe, but they were clearly designed as younger
> "stand-ins". Perhaps a bit more classy than actually having the
> characters be younger, true. So what other "-baby" shows were there? I
> can't think of any besides the already mentioned.
"Flintstones Kids" - blaarg; The worst offender. I don't actually
remember many - I guess a mental block, but they went so far as to cross
genres and put out 'Little Rosie' with Rosanne and Tom Arnold as kids in
a cartoon. Oh, the humanity....
The thing about Tiny Toons is that they WERE different characters
(the 'originals' made occasional appearences as teachers and stuff at
'Acme Loonaversity'), thus had different personalities and foibles
instead of being simply rehashed originals.
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 14:39:12 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Hanging Onto the Edge
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 03:53 PM 12/8/97 -0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>At 08:48 AM 12/8/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>At 10:32 AM 12/8/97 -0500, Dave Mattingly wrote:
>>>>Oh, and Move Bys and Move Throughs at noncombat speeds are handled just
>>>>like normal Move Bys and Move Throughs, except that OCV and DCV are
>>>>halved (or DCV determined by velocity) before any other modifiers.
>>>
>>>I was asking more about the damage from NCM slams...
>>>
>>>A vehicle with 30" and 32xNCM is moving at full NCM speed and slams
>>>right into a building. How much damage does the vehicle (and the
>>>building) take? Is it 10d6? 320d6? Something else?
>>
>> It will probably do the DEF+BODY of the building, up to 320d6. (In
>>other words, use the real velocity, not the combat velocity.)
>>
>Are you going to introduce "Confetti" rules like those in Car Wars? I
>don't remember the exact formula, but it was that if a vehicle took a
>certain amount of damage (a certain fraction of its weight) it would be
>reduced instantly to rubble, to be dropped from 12" above the playing
>surface, to allow scattering. : ) I think 320d6 would probably do it...
Well, at present my rule is that at 0 BODY a vehicle is too broken to
work (though individual devices bought through a Focus might), and at -Full
BODY it's totalled (and Foci, unless OAFs, are destroyed as well).
Depending on the attitude of the list folks, I could suggest an optional
rule that at -Double BODY the vehicle becomes scattered debris, and any
lead miniature used to represent it should be smashed with a sledge hammer.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:40:50 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Champions Adventures - in a rut
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(Trevor Barrie writes in response to Case's comments)
Admittedly, I'm coming in late. However, I think the point is coming up
with fresh twists on the 4-color genre rather than whether Case's
scenarios actually qualify as '4-color'.
Curt Hicks
> From daemon@omg.org Mon Dec 8 16:34 CST 1997
> Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:09:22 -0400 (AST)
> From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
> Subject: Re: Champions Adventures
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
> X-Hero: champ-l
> To: champ-l@omg.org
> Content-Type> : > TEXT/PLAIN> ; > charset=US-ASCII>
> Content-Length: 1474
>
> On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, Case wrote:
>
> > I was wondering if anyone was interested in talking about their _role
> > playing experiences_ in the Champions universe. How many people still play
> > the 4-color brand of Champions?
>
> My campaigns are generally not coherent enough to be classed into a
> sub-genre.:)
>
> > We used to play 4-color adventures for the longest time, until we got into a
> > terrible rut- playing every tired cliche in the book
> > 1) You walk into a bank, cashing a check, when suddenly...
> > 2) The government has called you all into this meeting because we
> > have a top-secret mission that only YOU can handle, or course, if you are
> > caught we will deny everyth...
>
> Is this a cliche of the 4-colour genre? I would think it would seem
> terribly out of place in said genre - it's more a cliche of the espionage
> genre, possibly useful as a change of pace for a somewhat darkly-toned
> superhero genre.
>
> > 3) We must raid the super high-tech enemy complex, to
> > (a) rescue the hostage(s)
> > (b) stop the doomsday
> > device/nuclear/biological/chemical/mechanical weapon
> > (c) destroy it.
> > (d) steal back the plans/equipment
> > (e) Kill the evil, vile, manical leader
>
> Definitely out of place for 4-colour supers IMO. You could change it to
> capturing the evil, vile, maniacal leader, maybe, but to be honest I
> can't think of all that many examples of complex-raiding at all in said
> genre.
>
>
X-Sender: mlknight@pop.mindspring.com
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 15:42:45 -0700
From: Michelle Knight <mlknight@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings
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At 04:45 PM 12/8/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
> Greetings, list lurkers and readers. I wanted to introduce myself
briefly. I
>am Mark Arsenault, head of Gold Rush Games.
Welcome Mark! It's about darn time you got on this mailing list. :)
Michelle
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 08:45:58 +1000
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Subject: Re: Help?
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>> It doesn't matter what you CALL the move - what matters is the effect. I
>> can say I'm using a headbutt or a forearm or kick to the chin - it's still
>> my martial strike. I hit him, I do damage. If I say I'm using a bodyslam
>> or an arm drag or a hurricarana, the result is still the same - I damage my
>> opponent and put him on the ground.
>
>By the same token, one could say that Johnny Storm's regular fire blasts
>and his Nova Blast have the same effect, but I wouldn't respect a
>character write-up which only gave him one attack and chalked the
>difference up to special effects.
>
Why not? it's just a punch of d6 bought as a push, what's wrong with that?
>> If the special effects of the move say I should also hit the ground,
>> then special effects say I hop back to my feet before anybody takes
>> advantage of my position (wrestlers do it all the time)
>
>OTOH, it's not unheard of for wrestlers to be attacked before getting up
>from such moves. Possibly Breakfall would be a better way of simulating
>this?
>
>
Why not a penalty to dex? or a side effect- 'falls down on failure'
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 08:45:58 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
Subject: Re: Help?
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>> It doesn't matter what you CALL the move - what matters is the effect. I
>> can say I'm using a headbutt or a forearm or kick to the chin - it's still
>> my martial strike. I hit him, I do damage. If I say I'm using a bodyslam
>> or an arm drag or a hurricarana, the result is still the same - I damage my
>> opponent and put him on the ground.
>
>By the same token, one could say that Johnny Storm's regular fire blasts
>and his Nova Blast have the same effect, but I wouldn't respect a
>character write-up which only gave him one attack and chalked the
>difference up to special effects.
>
Why not? it's just a punch of d6 bought as a push, what's wrong with that?
>> If the special effects of the move say I should also hit the ground,
>> then special effects say I hop back to my feet before anybody takes
>> advantage of my position (wrestlers do it all the time)
>
>OTOH, it's not unheard of for wrestlers to be attacked before getting up
>from such moves. Possibly Breakfall would be a better way of simulating
>this?
>
>
Why not a penalty to dex? or a side effect- 'falls down on failure'
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 08:48:31 +1000
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Subject: Re: Any Published Champions Speedsters?
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At 03:54 PM 12/8/97 -0600, Curt Hicks wrote:
>
>There's the guy in High-Tech Enemies, I just don't remember the name
>right now.
>
>Velocity ? Impulse ?
>
>Curt Hicks
>
What, you mean the second ever australian champions character? *l*
He's a flyer if i remember forrectly, so i dunno if he counts as a
'speedster'. . . how about weasel from the same book? I played him
the same as 'lady flash' was circa FLASH #50. . .
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 08:48:31 +1000
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Subject: Re: Any Published Champions Speedsters?
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At 03:54 PM 12/8/97 -0600, Curt Hicks wrote:
>
>There's the guy in High-Tech Enemies, I just don't remember the name
>right now.
>
>Velocity ? Impulse ?
>
>Curt Hicks
>
What, you mean the second ever australian champions character? *l*
He's a flyer if i remember forrectly, so i dunno if he counts as a
'speedster'. . . how about weasel from the same book? I played him
the same as 'lady flash' was circa FLASH #50. . .
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:48:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Help!!!
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Trevor Barrie wrote:
> > > I am needing 3 npcs for a game. One must be a Blaster, other a velocist
> > > and the third a sorcerer.
> >
> > Uh... what is a 'velocist'?
>
> Presumably he means what's commonly referred to as a "speedster".
Yeah, he said as such as little later.
> > BTW: Rafael, if you have web access (or even access to Lynx)
>
> Bit of an odd phrase, that. If he has access to Lynx, then by definition
> he has web access.
Uhm... oh yeah... I just think Web = Netscape/Explorer and pictures and
all that and forget the rest.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 14:52:08 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Hanging Onto the Edge
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 04:44 PM 12/8/97 -0500, Dave Mattingly wrote:
>>>A vehicle with 30" and 32xNCM is moving at full NCM speed and slams
>>>right into a building. How much damage does the vehicle (and the
>>>building) take? Is it 10d6? 320d6? Something else?
>
>>It will probably do the DEF+BODY of the building, up to 320d6. (In
>>other words, use the real velocity, not the combat velocity.)
>
>I don't really like that ruling (nothing against you, I've seen it in
>other games and didn't like it then either).
>
>For one, since movement is linear and damage is supposed to be
>exponential, they don't jibe well. What I mean is that a 10d6 blast or
>punch is defined as being twice as powerful as a 9d6 blast or punch. But
>with a move through, the dice are linear, and the difference between a
>10d6 and a 9d6 move through is only a linear 3".
>
>How about I define a vehicle (missile) with 30" flight, and 32xNCM. I
>also buy 320 DEF for it (say what?!?). Or else I say it's an unbreakable
>focus made from Impervium, the indestructible metal. This missile can
>now destroy the earth with a move through. And actually, it would only
>need 1 DEF higher than the earth's body, whatever that is.
>
>I've been considering changing Hero non-combat move throughs to doing
>their normal combat move through damage plus 1d6 per NCM, so the 30"
>with 32xNCM would do 10d6+32d6. It sounds more reasonable for those who
>allow non-combat move throughs in their games (I don't), but I haven't
>playtested it yet.
Being persuaded by your argument (most specifically the
linear/exponential comparison), I think I will do something similar. What
you suggest (inches of movement + NCM) might be direct, but has the
weakness that a vehicle with 30" plus 32xNCM does less damage (42d6) than a
vehicle with 15" plus 64xNCM (67d6) in spite of the fact that they're
moving at the same velocity. Another weakness is that it fails to address
the possibility of moving at noncombat speed, but not at top speed.
What I think I'll do is use a chart from Champions II that gives a
direct velocity-to-damage system. This starts at a velocity of 1/2" per
segment for 1d6, and adds 2d6 per 2x movement. Given that each 1d6 in Hero
is a doubling of energy, this last factor (at least) is realistic;
real-world physics (as I understand them) give us a multiple of energy
equal to the square of a multiple of velocity, so that a vehicle travelling
twice as fast really does do four times as much damage.
>>It will probably do the DEF+BODY of the building, up to 320d6. (In
>
>Oh yeah, shouldn't that be the lesser of the DEF+BODY of the building
>and the vehicle?
You are certainly correct here. The minimum of DEF+BODY of the
building, the DEF+BODY of the vehicle, and 320d6 (or, by the Champions II
table, 23d6). My mistake.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 08:52:20 +1000
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Subject: Re: TUSV: Hanging Onto the Edge
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When I did up my 3da rules i decided to apply an attack with d6 = the size
of the object collided with, +/- modifiers for density levels and MAX. If
ANY of this dmamge got through to the vehicle, kablammo. If none did, boiiiing!
it just bounces off! *l* sounds corny but it was designed with space-opera style
dogfights in mind, with lots of shields, ect involved. .
At 04:44 PM 12/8/97 -0500, Dave Mattingly wrote:
>>>A vehicle with 30" and 32xNCM is moving at full NCM speed and slams
>>>right into a building. How much damage does the vehicle (and the
>>>building) take? Is it 10d6? 320d6? Something else?
>
>>It will probably do the DEF+BODY of the building, up to 320d6. (In
>>other words, use the real velocity, not the combat velocity.)
>
>I don't really like that ruling (nothing against you, I've seen it in
>other games and didn't like it then either).
>
>For one, since movement is linear and damage is supposed to be
>exponential, they don't jibe well. What I mean is that a 10d6 blast or
>punch is defined as being twice as powerful as a 9d6 blast or punch. But
>with a move through, the dice are linear, and the difference between a
>10d6 and a 9d6 move through is only a linear 3".
>
>How about I define a vehicle (missile) with 30" flight, and 32xNCM. I
>also buy 320 DEF for it (say what?!?). Or else I say it's an unbreakable
>focus made from Impervium, the indestructible metal. This missile can
>now destroy the earth with a move through. And actually, it would only
>need 1 DEF higher than the earth's body, whatever that is.
>
>I've been considering changing Hero non-combat move throughs to doing
>their normal combat move through damage plus 1d6 per NCM, so the 30"
>with 32xNCM would do 10d6+32d6. It sounds more reasonable for those who
>allow non-combat move throughs in their games (I don't), but I haven't
>playtested it yet.
>
>
>>It will probably do the DEF+BODY of the building, up to 320d6. (In
>
>Oh yeah, shouldn't that be the lesser of the DEF+BODY of the building
>and the vehicle?
>
>
>Dave Mattingly
>
>
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 08:52:20 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
Subject: Re: TUSV: Hanging Onto the Edge
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When I did up my 3da rules i decided to apply an attack with d6 = the size
of the object collided with, +/- modifiers for density levels and MAX. If
ANY of this dmamge got through to the vehicle, kablammo. If none did, boiiiing!
it just bounces off! *l* sounds corny but it was designed with space-opera style
dogfights in mind, with lots of shields, ect involved. .
At 04:44 PM 12/8/97 -0500, Dave Mattingly wrote:
>>>A vehicle with 30" and 32xNCM is moving at full NCM speed and slams
>>>right into a building. How much damage does the vehicle (and the
>>>building) take? Is it 10d6? 320d6? Something else?
>
>>It will probably do the DEF+BODY of the building, up to 320d6. (In
>>other words, use the real velocity, not the combat velocity.)
>
>I don't really like that ruling (nothing against you, I've seen it in
>other games and didn't like it then either).
>
>For one, since movement is linear and damage is supposed to be
>exponential, they don't jibe well. What I mean is that a 10d6 blast or
>punch is defined as being twice as powerful as a 9d6 blast or punch. But
>with a move through, the dice are linear, and the difference between a
>10d6 and a 9d6 move through is only a linear 3".
>
>How about I define a vehicle (missile) with 30" flight, and 32xNCM. I
>also buy 320 DEF for it (say what?!?). Or else I say it's an unbreakable
>focus made from Impervium, the indestructible metal. This missile can
>now destroy the earth with a move through. And actually, it would only
>need 1 DEF higher than the earth's body, whatever that is.
>
>I've been considering changing Hero non-combat move throughs to doing
>their normal combat move through damage plus 1d6 per NCM, so the 30"
>with 32xNCM would do 10d6+32d6. It sounds more reasonable for those who
>allow non-combat move throughs in their games (I don't), but I haven't
>playtested it yet.
>
>
>>It will probably do the DEF+BODY of the building, up to 320d6. (In
>
>Oh yeah, shouldn't that be the lesser of the DEF+BODY of the building
>and the vehicle?
>
>
>Dave Mattingly
>
>
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 14:52:56 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Locks
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 12:52 PM 12/8/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>On Monday, December 08, 1997 6:44 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
><snip>
>> I encourage this line of conversation. Please -- virtually every
>post
>>here is adding something to TUSV!
>> Say, does anyone know offhand what the standard locations are for
>the
>>VIN? I know there's one on the dashboard, and I think there's one on
>the
>>engine block...
>
>Dashboard and car door frames on some models, I believe. The engine
>block number tags the engine, but
>not the vehicle. Otherwise, any car with a new engine would have two
>VINs.
Ooh, good point. I think I said "engine block" when I meant something
else whose name escapes me.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 08:59:41 +1000
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Subject: Re: Greetings
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At 04:45 PM 12/8/97 -0500, GoldRushG wrote:
> Greetings, list lurkers and readers. I wanted to introduce myself briefly. I
>am Mark Arsenault, head of Gold Rush Games. As we're getting geared up to
>release San Angelo: City of Heroes (the first paper supplement for Champions
>4th Ed in a loooong time) I thought I would get on this list and get some
>feedback from you folks.
>
> Specifically, I am wondering if anyone here downloaded the SA:CoH preview
>chapters. If so, are there any comments? Or any questions of me regarding this
>new product line?
>
> Mark @ GRG
>
Okies. . maybe a specific url is in order? Anybody?
Or i'll just pop over to hero.. .
click the link. . .find you guys
. . . click the link. . .. *yawn* *lol*
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 08:59:41 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
Subject: Re: Greetings
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Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 04:45 PM 12/8/97 -0500, GoldRushG wrote:
> Greetings, list lurkers and readers. I wanted to introduce myself briefly. I
>am Mark Arsenault, head of Gold Rush Games. As we're getting geared up to
>release San Angelo: City of Heroes (the first paper supplement for Champions
>4th Ed in a loooong time) I thought I would get on this list and get some
>feedback from you folks.
>
> Specifically, I am wondering if anyone here downloaded the SA:CoH preview
>chapters. If so, are there any comments? Or any questions of me regarding this
>new product line?
>
> Mark @ GRG
>
Okies. . maybe a specific url is in order? Anybody?
Or i'll just pop over to hero.. .
click the link. . .find you guys
. . . click the link. . .. *yawn* *lol*
From: "Case" <wmpc@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:02:35 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
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>With this one, I was *comparing* it (or trying to) to that scene from the
>Princess Bride, because I would absolutely let one of my players get away
>with that scene. However, I could also see the monologue you just wrote
>being said with bitterness and bile in the character's voice, just to see
>the fear and realization in the villain's eyes right before he blew his
>head off.
>I'm glad that your hero (even if it is just an example) didn't kill him,
>and gave him a second chance. Those are the kinds of heroes I would like
>in my games.
>
>I'm sorry that my response seemed overly critical to you. The reason that
>I wrote so much was to be fair and try and respond to all that you wrote.
>I'll try and phrase my posts more concisely from now on.
Reading back on my previous posts, it occured to me that I inadvertently
took the 'classic rock sucks, alternative rulez!' type of posture. So I
probably seemed like I was putting down the 4 color stuff to everyone who
likes 4 color- where my frame of mind really was just presenting some (what
I thought were) new ideas.
I agree with you on the second chance in the above example- what good it is
GMing or playing characters with no redeeming values whatsoever? It gets
stale quickly...
-CaseMan
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Hanging Onto the Edge
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:28:58 -0800
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Monday, December 08, 1997 2:32 PM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 03:53 PM 12/8/97 -0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
<snip>
>>Are you going to introduce "Confetti" rules like those in Car Wars?
I
>>don't remember the exact formula, but it was that if a vehicle took
a
>>certain amount of damage (a certain fraction of its weight) it would
be
>>reduced instantly to rubble, to be dropped from 12" above the
playing
>>surface, to allow scattering. : ) I think 320d6 would probably do
it...
>
> Well, at present my rule is that at 0 BODY a vehicle is too broken
to
>work (though individual devices bought through a Focus might), and
at -Full
>BODY it's totalled (and Foci, unless OAFs, are destroyed as well).
>Depending on the attitude of the list folks, I could suggest an
optional
>rule that at -Double BODY the vehicle becomes scattered debris, and
any
>lead miniature used to represent it should be smashed with a sledge
hammer.
Long ago, the Paranoia game recommended that, in the event that
nuclear weapons are used, you should run over the playing area with a
lawn mower.:)
Filksinger
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 20:46:59 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: TUSV: Hanging Onto the Edge
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Filksinger wrote:
> Long ago, the Paranoia game recommended that, in the event that
> nuclear weapons are used, you should run over the playing area with a
> lawn mower.:)
And then there was the NATO/Warsaw Pact simulation that recommended
lighting the mapboard on fire in advent of a nuclear exchange.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 22:22:02 -0500
From: "Kevin J. McClain" <KevLord@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: KevLord@worldnet.att.net
Organization: Courts of Kirkwood
Subject: Mulitple move bys
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I was wondering if anyone had an opinion or idea (I'm sure everyone
does) about how to construct a teleporting character who does multiple
move bys like Excalibur's Nightcrawler. Specifically the mechanics
behind the maneuver. In the past I allowed a character to simply do it
as if he were running as long as he had enough teleport inches to make
it to each target, in effect treating it like any other movement power.
Some of the gamers around here feel that the maneuver has to be
constructed with powers. Any ideas ?
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 22:56:43 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight
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On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Vox Ludator! wrote:
> At 10:41 AM 12/8/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
> >Maybe you've felt that way because you've applied it more strictly than
> >the writers intended.
>
> I apply it as it's written -- no more, no less. If they intended it less
> strict, they should have written something else.
>
I agree. Your interpretation certainly does fit the letter of the IPE
rules; at no point have I disputed that. However, while the BBB is
probably the best-edited product Hero ever put out, it occasionally still
falls short of total reliability in wording and consistency. The
description of Flight in the special effects section implies something
very different from what the IPE section does. Considering that in prior
editions IPE was irrelevent, and that the special effects references to
Flight went virtually unchanged in the 4th ed., I suspect they just didn't
think it through. Since giving a broad interpretation to the "visible"
effects of flight gives a better genre feel to my superhero games, I
choose to do it.
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 22:05:20 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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> The link is a 1/2 disadvantage, but is it really?
Taboo topic, but here goes.
> Let's say I want to have a Hero who wields twin UZIs. Each has a 5-shot
> Autofire. Normally he would have one and only fire 5 shots, if I put a link
> disadvantage to one of the guns and link it to the main gun. We now have an
> attack that can do TWO 5-shot autofires!! At a reduced point cost on the
> second power to boot!!! Does anyone see a problem with this.
Nope, for the same cost I could to a 5-shot autofire at a much
higher DC level. Or a ten-shot autofire with bonuses to hit, "only to
counteract autofire penalties".
> Another example is I could have a 12d6 photon blast, and link a 3d6 flash
> to it as well. Now we have a 12d6 EB along with a 3d6 flash (even though it
> does require another hit roll) that can be done all in one phase.
Well, actually it is done with only *one* attack action. However,
notice that for the same number of Active Points, you could do either an
18d6 EB or a 9d6 flash, either one of which is more effective than the
above. Remember that upper damage classes are usually more effective than
the lower ones as defenses only go so high. (With real points, the above
work out to a 16d6 eb or an 8d6 Flash, still much more effective.)
Linked is a disad because you are permenantly linking two powers --
niether can be used alone and you lose overall effectiveness of the
powers.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 23:26:39 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures- Breaking up the monotony...
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> Hey- I love those villain names 'Fourth Imperium' (!!) and 'Predator'. When
> we first tried to do a super-villain adventure a number of years back, it
> fell flat on it's face. We killed everything we saw, fought each other,
> killed cops, robbed. It was like a Roman orgy. And it got old FAST. Ho-hum.
> We didn't know how to do villainy right. We were all meglomaniacs vying for
> power with our maniacal laughter. But it looks as if you've got the idea as
> well with your plotline...
Sounds like it.:) I've kept considering doing a villain game sometime,
but I doubt my group would be into it. Even when I run gray morality
games right now, they play heros.:)
TokyoMark
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 01:13:05 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: nexus@uky.campus.mci.net (Unverified)
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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At 04:03 PM 12/8/97 -0500, Urklore The Iron wrote:
>The link is a 1/2 disadvantage, but is it really?
>
>Let's say I want to have a Hero who wields twin UZIs. Each has a 5-shot
>Autofire. Normally he would have one and only fire 5 shots, if I put a link
>disadvantage to one of the guns and link it to the main gun. We now have an
>attack that can do TWO 5-shot autofires!! At a reduced point cost on the
>second power to boot!!! Does anyone see a problem with this.
>Another example is I could have a 12d6 photon blast, and link a 3d6 flash
>to it as well. Now we have a 12d6 EB along with a 3d6 flash (even though it
>does require another hit roll) that can be done all in one phase.
NO NONOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! not again!
I know violence doesn't solve all problems...
But it sure feels good!
Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 22:13:59 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Regenerating limbs
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-- Bob Greenwade wrote:
<<Your bit>>
> >> The last I saw, officially, no. For character concepts that need this,
> >> I usually allow a +1/2 "House Rule" advantage, "Regrows Limbs," which can
> >> be applied to REC, Aid (with the Healing option), or Regeneration.
> ><<My bit>>
> >And this is written where? Certainly not under the description of
> >regeneration in the BBB.
> <<Your bit, again>>
> It's not written anywhere. That's what makes it a house rule, Rick.
Sorry, my fault. The bit I was asking about was the no limb regeneration. Your
+1/2 "regrows limbs" was clearly labeled as a house rule. You said "The last I
saw, officially, no." I was wanting to know where it had been made official.
--------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com>
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures- Breaking up the monotony...
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 0:33:16 CST
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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> > Hey- I love those villain names 'Fourth Imperium' (!!) and 'Predator'. When
> > we first tried to do a super-villain adventure a number of years back, it
> > fell flat on it's face. We killed everything we saw, fought each other,
> > killed cops, robbed. It was like a Roman orgy. And it got old FAST. Ho-hum.
> > We didn't know how to do villainy right. We were all meglomaniacs vying for
> > power with our maniacal laughter. But it looks as if you've got the idea as
> > well with your plotline...
>
> Sounds like it.:) I've kept considering doing a villain game sometime,
> but I doubt my group would be into it. Even when I run gray morality
> games right now, they play heros.:)
I played in a Villain game about a year ago; I was the four-color villian
(Blitzkrieg - the product of a series of genetic experiments done by
Nazi scientists who settled in Montana after WW2, and went around
annoying the Federal government talking about "the proper place of
minorities in American society", etc, spouting a lot of "militia"
propaganda, and otherwise advocating a rebellion against the current
Federal government on "Constitutional" grounds - I also saved peoples
lives during natural disasters, even minorities, since they too have
a place in society, and am now using him as a villian in my superhero
games...)
Unfortunately, everyone else either played paranormal crooks or "grey"
characters; the campaign died (due to the GM and his girlfriend breaking
up - she played in it too) just before I was able to launch my attempt
to seize control of Argentina (I picked it because of the high number of
ex-Nazis, the horrible state of the economy and government, and because
my character's girlfriend, confidante and co-partner, 'Jaguar', could
speak Spanish). I had turned the main supervillian in Argentina into a
henchman, etc...
Fun game; we spent a lot of time (when not at Sanctuary annoying the
Champions) in Monte Carlo and Tahiti - if you're going to be a super-
villian, you need good perks.
Plotlines: I annoyed the heck out of PRIMUS, until some 'special-built'
Iron Guard agents nailed me, then I dropped buildings on them (100 STR),
and spent time on TV talking about the upcoming revolution, and wouldn't
every clean-living American want to be on it, and how Hitler was wrong
to go after Jews and other minorities, since they all have a place in
society, like Jewish Bankers and Black Basketball Stars and Hispanic
Car Salesmen, etc...
Basically, Superman, but with the ideology of Archie Bunker and the
personality of "the Fonz" from Happy Days ('cuz he was the only cool
one in the group, and superheroines fell for him all the time)...
DonM.
--
=========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist, (217) 239-8365 =
= Computer Sciences Corporation, Champaign, IL dmckinne@cmi.csc.com =
= Winter War XXV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 6-8, 1998 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org (217) 469-9917 =
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 22:34:05 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Regenerating limbs
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
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-- Robert A. West wrote:
>
> Rick Holding wrote:
> >
> > Bob Greenwade wrote:
> > >
> > > At 09:59 AM 12/6/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
> > > > Do characters with regeneration regenerate limbs? . . .
> > >
> > > The last I saw, officially, no. . . .
> >
> > And this is written where? Certainly not under the description of
> > regeneration in the BBB.
>
> Actually, the point is that the book says nowhere that Regeneration can
> regrow limbs. Powers do what they are stated to do, modulo special
> effects.
> Can not the loss of a limb be represented by loss of body points?
Using the (optional) hit location tables can allow sufficent body to be done
to a limb for it to be ruled a disabling wound which could mean loss of limb.
Blam, your left arm has just taken 12 body. Its lying on the ground and you
decrease you body total by two.
> Per book, Regen recovers points of BODY, period. As has been pointed out
> from time to time, the only way to represent limb loss under standard
> rules is as a Major Transform. By the rules for Transform, a completed
> transform may either be reversed by recovering the Transform "BODY" as if
> recovering normal BODY, in which case Regeneration works, or by some
> other method appropriate to the Transform, in which case Regeneration is
> irrelevant.
Certainly, its ONE way of doing it. Just of the cuff. 1D6 body
drain, +3 advantage recover 5pts/century. SFX - limb removed. All up cost 40
points. Regenration works against body drains and transfers.
>
> Since humans do not, in most campaigns, routinely regrow limbs, this
> implies that the Transform in question is nor reversed by normal BODY
> recovery; therefore standard Regeneration would not work. It would be
> perfectly appropriate to define a SFX for Regeneration that works against
> (and only against) Transforms that represent Amputations, and to require
> that all amputation Transforms include Regeneration/Limb as one of the
> reversal conditions.
Humans do not, in most campaigns, regernerate limbs because nobody
looses them! Okay, broad statement, I'll admit. But I certainly have not
seen anybody lose a limb in the 10+ years that I have been playing.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 01:45:26 EST
Subject: Re: Greetings
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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<< 1. Where have you people been? >>
I can't recall ever being an active part of the Champions list, myself, and
I cannot speak for Steve Peterson (Hero Games). Atlas Games let their Hero
license go last year, I believe and have no plans to publish new Hero
products.
<< It's like we were totally abandoned. >>
Not at all. You can always contact us or Hero Games via e-mail, snail mail,
on AOL or CompuServe, or in the internet newsgroups.
<< But to totally disapear from Hero's public forum looks pretty bad. And then
to only re-appear in order to promote new products is even worse. >>
Well, for one thing, there is more to the public forum than this list,
although I can appreciate your feelings and concerns. As for my arrival, what
can I say? Here I am. Am I a welcomed participant or an object of scorn and
ridicule? ;)
<< I'm more concerned with Steve P.'s lack of presense than yours. But I
assumed when joining here that it would be a good place to get 'official'
answers. Yet it's been a void. >>
I would suggest sending an e-mail to Steve at herogames@aol.com. While I
will not speak for him, I can tell you that he is a very busy guy, what with
flying back and forth to Washington (to fulfill his role as WotCs marketing
guy), running Hero Games and making sure we don't screw up our Hero products.
;)
<< So it's a fictional city. Would you say it's got a more Marvel, DC, or
Image feel to it? When I think fictional cities my mind thinks 4-color DC. >>
That's a really tough question for me to answer, because I have not been
heavy into reading comics for some time. Probably the best answer I could give
(or the best comparison, rather) is that it is a lot like Astro City. Our goal
is to present a realistic city with "real" people where supers live and
operate. As the author put it, "San Angelo: City of Heroes is about people
with powers, not the other way around." Each of our characters is being
designed with depth. In addition, we're planning on maintaining continuity and
introducing new people/places/things logically. No more "Endless Enemies"
books. ;)
<< 3. Totally new Universe? In this 'verse there's no "Hudson City" off in
another state somewhere? (like Metropolis and Gotham). >>
Just because it's a new universe doesn't mean we don't have our own "Hudson
City" or "Gotham." But it will be a while before you see any San Angelo
products for the Dark Champions crowd.
<< 4. Is this the beginning of something (providing sales justify)? Or a one-
shot Tangent Universe like Strike Force was? >>
Oh, we wouldn't be spending thousands of dollars developing this book just
to let it be a one shot deal. ;) No, SA:CoH is the first of a whole new line
of books for Champions 4th Ed. Be sure to check out our web site, too, for
info on upcoming San Angelo supplements (and other upcoming books) from GRG.
<< 5. What kind of power level will it go for? >>
Anything you want. Not the answer you wanted? Well, the sample PCs in the
book are all built on 250 points. The villains will vary, with most falling in
the 250-350 range, most likely. Of course, there will be exceptions...
<< Do you or anybody else hold the rights to print more BBB's when the current
stock runs out? >>
Boy, you folks should check out the rec.rpg.superhero newsgroup more often!
:D Our license is the same license that ICE held in recent years (before the
Hero/ICE split). Basically, we can publish anything for Hero System 4th Ed.
(not just Champions) as long as Hero Games approves it.
And yes, there are plans to reprint the Champions core book when current
copies run out. But we currently have a good number of copies of the Champions
Deluxe hardback (w/o software) that it probably won't be until late next year
or early '99 that you'd see a new Champions (did I say 5th Ed.?) book.
Hey, it's great to be on the list! If I can answer any other qwuestions, let
me have 'em! Those that are more for Hero Games I will have to defer to Steve
Peterson, though.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 02:17:25 EST
Subject: Re: Greetings
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 10
<< Okies. . maybe a specific url is in order?>>
Sorry about that. I'm used to my sig being posted as in the newsgroups. :D
Our web page is at http://members.aol.com/goldrushg
Mark @ GRG
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 23:21:05 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 11
GoldRushG wrote:
> << 1. Where have you people been? >>
>
> I can't recall ever being an active part of the Champions list, myself, and
> I cannot speak for Steve Peterson (Hero Games). Atlas Games let their Hero
> license go last year, I believe and have no plans to publish new Hero
> products.
Well, that's too bad to hear. Though I don't recall them as ever having been
very active.
> << It's like we were totally abandoned. >>
>
> Not at all. You can always contact us or Hero Games via e-mail, snail mail,
> on AOL or CompuServe, or in the internet newsgroups.
Well, This is THE mailing list for YOUR (you and Steve) product. So you should
havebeen here since day 1. Or in your case, the day you got your license.
But that's all spilt milk. Now that you're here, I expect regular commentary.
:)
As long as it's not all buy my stuff spam. :)
> << But to totally disapear from Hero's public forum looks pretty bad. And then
> to only re-appear in order to promote new products is even worse. >>
>
> Well, for one thing, there is more to the public forum than this list,
> although I can appreciate your feelings and concerns. As for my arrival, what
> can I say? Here I am. Am I a welcomed participant or an object of scorn and
> ridicule? ;)
I'm not trying to flame you. Actually I've met you at a con and decided you
were genuinlyenthusiastic, or just a good con. :)
However, the newsgroup is not product specific, AOL and Compuserv are limited
forums, as is
WebRPG and #herochat (DALnet IRC). This group is pretty large, dedicated, active,
and open to anyone
with email.
> << I'm more concerned with Steve P.'s lack of presense than yours. But I
> assumed when joining here that it would be a good place to get 'official'
> answers. Yet it's been a void. >>
>
> I would suggest sending an e-mail to Steve at herogames@aol.com. While I
> will not speak for him, I can tell you that he is a very busy guy, what with
> flying back and forth to Washington (to fulfill his role as WotCs marketing
> guy), running Hero Games and making sure we don't screw up our Hero products.
> ;)
Uh-oh. TSR meets WoTC meets Hero. My fifth Level Malkavelian Brick Punches
your6th level AC 6 Egoist for 5 successes? :)
Or collectable Champions Card Game? :)
BTW, who in their right mind would hire Steve P. to sell / market anything?
Considering Hero's
great success in the market. :)
> << So it's a fictional city. Would you say it's got a more Marvel, DC, or
> Image feel to it? When I think fictional cities my mind thinks 4-color DC. >>
>
> That's a really tough question for me to answer, because I have not been
> heavy into reading comics for some time. Probably the best answer I could give
> (or the best comparison, rather) is that it is a lot like Astro City. Our goal
> is to present a realistic city with "real" people where supers live and
> operate. As the author put it, "San Angelo: City of Heroes is about people
> with powers, not the other way around." Each of our characters is being
> designed with depth. In addition, we're planning on maintaining continuity and
> introducing new people/places/things logically. No more "Endless Enemies"
> books. ;)
If it's anything like Astro City you can count me in.
> << 3. Totally new Universe? In this 'verse there's no "Hudson City" off in
> another state somewhere? (like Metropolis and Gotham). >>
>
> Just because it's a new universe doesn't mean we don't have our own "Hudson
> City" or "Gotham." But it will be a while before you see any San Angelo
> products for the Dark Champions crowd.
Hey no problem, I can't stand all that dark junk myself.
> << 4. Is this the beginning of something (providing sales justify)? Or a one-
> shot Tangent Universe like Strike Force was? >>
>
> Oh, we wouldn't be spending thousands of dollars developing this book just
> to let it be a one shot deal. ;) No, SA:CoH is the first of a whole new line
> of books for Champions 4th Ed. Be sure to check out our web site, too, for
> info on upcoming San Angelo supplements (and other upcoming books) from GRG.
>
> << 5. What kind of power level will it go for? >>
>
> Anything you want. Not the answer you wanted? Well, the sample PCs in the
> book are all built on 250 points. The villains will vary, with most falling in
> the 250-350 range, most likely. Of course, there will be exceptions...
>
So does that mean they will all be lower power level than the BBB characters?
Since while theBBB characters are all 250 points, they have no skills, perks, or
dare I say... depth. Adding those
things in will take away from other things unless the points are raised.
> << Do you or anybody else hold the rights to print more BBB's when the current
> stock runs out? >>
>
> Boy, you folks should check out the rec.rpg.superhero newsgroup more often!
> :D Our license is the same license that ICE held in recent years (before the
> Hero/ICE split). Basically, we can publish anything for Hero System 4th Ed.
> (not just Champions) as long as Hero Games approves it.
>
> And yes, there are plans to reprint the Champions core book when current
> copies run out. But we currently have a good number of copies of the Champions
> Deluxe hardback (w/o software) that it probably won't be until late next year
> or early '99 that you'd see a new Champions (did I say 5th Ed.?) book.
Uh-Oh. See my above comments about WoTC/TSR. Can we add Fuzion into
thatequation as well? :)
> Hey, it's great to be on the list! If I can answer any other qwuestions, let
> me have 'em! Those that are more for Hero Games I will have to defer to Steve
> Peterson, though.
Well, have at. A lot of useful and useless junk on this list. I almost
unsubscribe on adaily basis, only to be rooted to my keyboard a few minutes later.
Rook
Super Hero Links Page:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 02:06:45 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
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X-UID: 12
> > work out to a 16d6 eb or an 8d6 Flash, still much more effective.)
> > Linked is a disad because you are permenantly linking two powers --
> > niether can be used alone and you lose overall effectiveness of the
> > powers.
>
> That last part is not quite correct. The flash attack is linked to the
> energy blast. For the flash to operate, the energy blast must be fired. But if
> you fire the energy blast, you do not have to activate the flash. The energy
> blast is not limited. The flash attack is.
Actually, both attacks *are* limited, you are only allowed the
disad on the one, however, for balance reasons. That's part of the
disadvantage, you get points for the smaller, but both are affected.
-Tim Gilberg
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 09:10:16 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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X-UID: 32
> > > work out to a 16d6 eb or an 8d6 Flash, still much more effective.)
> > > Linked is a disad because you are permenantly linking two powers --
> > > niether can be used alone and you lose overall effectiveness of the
> > > powers.
> >
> > That last part is not quite correct. The flash attack is linked to the
> > energy blast. For the flash to operate, the energy blast must be fired. But if
> > you fire the energy blast, you do not have to activate the flash. The energy
> > blast is not limited. The flash attack is.
>
>
> Actually, both attacks *are* limited, you are only allowed the
> disad on the one, however, for balance reasons. That's part of the
> disadvantage, you get points for the smaller, but both are affected.
>
This whole discussion is MOOT.
I can simply use "limited" to design a custom version of linked that works
however I desire for the given character at hand.
There are special effects which fit for either way.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Jane..get me off this crazy thing..jane!!!
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 09:15:33 +0000 (GMT)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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>
> I thought sending mail to champ-request@omg.org with unsubcribe champ-l in
> teh subject and the body would get me unsubscribed. It's 48 hours and three
> attempts later..i'm still on the list, and the messages haven't bounced, or
> anything else. SO how cna i actually get unsubscribed..anyone know?>
>
This is hell, you can't leave.
There's a poster on rec.games.frp.super-heroes having the same problem in
reverse. He can't seem to manage to subscribe.
I think the request alias got disabled when all those bounces went
through a few days back. Or whatever.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 04:48:01 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
Subject: Re: Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
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Mark,
How's it going buddy? Hope your wife is doing well!
I personally am looking forward to seeing "San Angelo: City of Heroes" I
down loaded the promo, I had some trouble with the formating, but as for
content it read really well, and seemed to be headed in the right direction.
What type of characters will be in the book? Will we be bale to get
electronic versions from the web site? Fusion versions? Heromaker?
Do you want to trade an ad in Herozine for a Review copy?
So many questions so little time.
Later,
Michael
Rising Force Publications
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm
X-Sender: nezmaster@ntr.net
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 05:49:22 -0500
From: Nez Master <nezmaster@ntr.net>
Subject: Jane..get me off this crazy thing..jane!!!
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
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I thought sending mail to champ-request@omg.org with unsubcribe champ-l in
teh subject and the body would get me unsubscribed. It's 48 hours and three
attempts later..i'm still on the list, and the messages haven't bounced, or
anything else. SO how cna i actually get unsubscribed..anyone know?>
-------------------------Nez Master--------------------
Second founder of the backwards philosophy
http://www.ntr.net/~nezmaster
Nothing is certain
_______________________________________________________
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 97 11:21:16 GMT
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Stephen McGinness)
Subject: Re: Mulitple move bys
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 10:22 PM 8/12/97 -0500, KevLord@net.att.worldnet wrote:
>I was wondering if anyone had an opinion or idea (I'm sure everyone
>does) about how to construct a teleporting character who does multiple
>move bys like Excalibur's Nightcrawler. Specifically the mechanics
>behind the maneuver. In the past I allowed a character to simply do it
>as if he were running as long as he had enough teleport inches to make
>it to each target, in effect treating it like any other movement power.
>Some of the gamers around here feel that the maneuver has to be
>constructed with powers. Any ideas ?
>
I made a character based on Nightcrawler who did this. I designed it by buying
selective area effect HA (dice based on his strength) with no range. This
allowed him to attack a whole range of people within a defined distance.
Seemed to work for him.
The teleporting to each person was just a special effect of the power. I
think you are in danger of the look and feel blinding you to the mechanics
of what you are trying to achieve.
Stephen
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com>
Subject: Re: Mulitple move bys
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 08:43:42 -0500
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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You could always just buy extra inches of running with the special
effect of teleporting.
40 MP
4u 10" Teleport w/ 32xNCM
4u 20" Teleport
4u +20" Running
He uses his 26" of running to to move bys, but the special effect is
that he teleports from character to character and punches them.
Dave Mattingly
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 06:45:42 -0700
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
Subject: Re: Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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GoldRushG wrote:
>
> Greetings, list lurkers and readers. I wanted to introduce myself briefly. I
> am Mark Arsenault, head of Gold Rush Games. As we're getting geared up to
> release San Angelo: City of Heroes (the first paper supplement for Champions
> 4th Ed in a loooong time) I thought I would get on this list and get some
> feedback from you folks.
>
> Specifically, I am wondering if anyone here downloaded the SA:CoH preview
> chapters. If so, are there any comments? Or any questions of me regarding this
> new product line?
Out of curiosity how much of the Champs stuff are you planning to do in
San Angelo. I remember seeing some blurbs for some other Champs books
that looked pretty interesting (the one about the cops/the law, and the
time travel adventures one).
I took a quick look at the download. I didn't see anything to make me
gag right off. I haven't looked at it in depth enough for any other
reactions other than visceral.
Hope the quality is as good as the two Heroic Adventures. I've used a
good number of those already. The bad guy in the Knightsabers plot (the
guy running the experiments) has joined Genocide here. 8).
--
-Mhoram
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your
two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com>
Cc: "'champ-l@omg.org'" <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Archer and Speedster
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 09:08:08 -0500
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Alone at Midnight asks about the Flash's powers, and I thought some on
the list might be interested...
>Like the heroes!
Thanks. I appreciate it.
>What's the Flash's SFX on his powers?
+10 STUN (only when unconscious -1)
This means that he heals faster than most. He recovers at a level above
others. When he's at -15 stun, he'd normally recover on post-12s, but
this means that he can recover as if he were at -5 stun, and can get a
recovery every phase.
7" Flight (costs 3x END)
The flight costs extra END because he runs faster than gravity. Imagine
his legs beating so fast, he can walk on air resistance. Or his arms
spinning or flapping so fast, he flies like a helicopter or a bird.
That's also why it's only a few inches of flight.
+15" Leap
You can get a good leap going with a good running start.
Clinging +15 STR
Again, he outruns gravity. He can run up the side of a building because
he goes faster than 10m/s/s. Or, since it's not linked to running, he
can use it to avoid knockback with the reasoning that he's fast enough
to brace at the last second, or he got an inch or so out of the way so
as to not take the full force. Or, he can carry something and not be
disarmed because he just picks it back up very quickly. Etc.
+5d6 Hand Attack
His fist moves very quickly to hit you. Or he just hits you several
times.
+15 STR
He still just has a normal man's strength, but he can do things quickly
that would normally take much longer. A brick could pick up a half ton
with one hand behind his back, and a normal man could huff and puff and
eventually maybe get it lifted, with time and help. Flash is that normal
man, but he just does it faster. He can use his extra strength to escape
grabs and entangles, since he's so fast he can wiggle out of them. He
can use it to hold someone tighter, since every time they almost escape,
he just re-grabs them with better positioning. He can use it from
throwing distance, since he can get a really good running throw speed.
He can use it to punch you, defined as the Hand Attack above was.
In short, he doesn't get any stronger, but he can do everything that a
stronger and slower man could.
1d6-1 RKA Autofire (needs any small objects)
He throws things as fast as a bullet.
+3 DCV (must be aware of attack)
He always has time to dodge. Even when he's already acted in that phase.
+15 PD (must be aware of attack)
He can brace himself for impact, or get slightly out of the way, or pick
up a nearby manhole cover to take most of the impact, or just recover
really fast. He normally uses this one for move throughs, because he
positions himself so that his target takes the damage, and he doesn't
+7 DEF Force Field (must be aware of attack)
Same as the PD, really. Or, the must be aware clause could be dropped
and it could be a normal force field based on vibration or something.
Deflection Bullets
He normally catches them so he can throw them back with his RKA if he
wants to.
Instant Change
He can obviously change into and out of costume quickly.
Images of Self
He can use the images to make himself seem to run faster than the human
eye can follow. Or he can appear to be in two places at once.
10 STR TK AE 1 Hex
By running around a target, he can make a small whirlwind to lift them
up. Or he can spin his arm around to make a fan effect to knock someone
down. And lots of other tricks.
CE: 1 Hex Any superspeed effect
He can sort a stack of files, clean a room, stir a cake mix, etc.
>All in all, a reasonably priced Speedster!
That was the goal. I got tired of local gamers complaining that you
can't make a 250 speedster, so I proved them wrong (and consistently
beat the rest of the team when we fought each other in danger room
settings).
Dave
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 06:08:56 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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At 01:45 AM 12/9/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< It's like we were totally abandoned. >>
>
> Not at all. You can always contact us or Hero Games via e-mail, snail mail,
>on AOL or CompuServe, or in the internet newsgroups.
>
><< But to totally disapear from Hero's public forum looks pretty bad. And
then
>to only re-appear in order to promote new products is even worse. >>
>
> Well, for one thing, there is more to the public forum than this list,
>although I can appreciate your feelings and concerns. As for my arrival, what
>can I say? Here I am. Am I a welcomed participant or an object of scorn and
>ridicule? ;)
Both, Mark... just like everyone else. ;-]
Seriously, I think the folks on this list occasionally forget that there
are a newsgroup and an AOL message folder dedicated to Hero gaming (though
admittedly the newsgroup is superheroic gaming in general).
><< 3. Totally new Universe? In this 'verse there's no "Hudson City" off in
>another state somewhere? (like Metropolis and Gotham). >>
>
> Just because it's a new universe doesn't mean we don't have our own "Hudson
>City" or "Gotham." But it will be a while before you see any San Angelo
>products for the Dark Champions crowd.
I think the original questioner was asking if San Angelo was in the
Chammpions Universe. And, of course, the answer is no; Hudson City,
Chiquador, Sanctuary, and all of the established Champions Universe
institutions do not exist here.
><< 4. Is this the beginning of something (providing sales justify)? Or a one-
>shot Tangent Universe like Strike Force was? >>
>
> Oh, we wouldn't be spending thousands of dollars developing this book just
>to let it be a one shot deal. ;) No, SA:CoH is the first of a whole new line
>of books for Champions 4th Ed. Be sure to check out our web site, too, for
>info on upcoming San Angelo supplements (and other upcoming books) from GRG.
In a way, isn't it really the *third* book in the set? I have Heroic
Adventures Vol. 1 (I keep putting off Vol. 2), and one of the adventures is
set in San Angelo.
><< Do you or anybody else hold the rights to print more BBB's when the
current
>stock runs out? >>
>
> Boy, you folks should check out the rec.rpg.superhero newsgroup more often!
>:D Our license is the same license that ICE held in recent years (before the
>Hero/ICE split). Basically, we can publish anything for Hero System 4th Ed.
>(not just Champions) as long as Hero Games approves it.
>
> And yes, there are plans to reprint the Champions core book when current
>copies run out. But we currently have a good number of copies of the
Champions
>Deluxe hardback (w/o software) that it probably won't be until late next year
>or early '99 that you'd see a new Champions (did I say 5th Ed.?) book.
Oh, boy... when anyone with any official ties to Hero Games uses the
phrase, "Fifth Edition," it starts heart palpitations (even if they're just
talking about the singing group).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 06:23:34 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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At 05:49 PM 12/9/97 -0800, Rick Holding wrote:
>-- Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
><<snipped>>
>> Well, actually it is done with only *one* attack action. However,
>> notice that for the same number of Active Points, you could do either an
>> 18d6 EB or a 9d6 flash, either one of which is more effective than the
>> above. Remember that upper damage classes are usually more effective than
>> the lower ones as defenses only go so high. (With real points, the above
>> work out to a 16d6 eb or an 8d6 Flash, still much more effective.)
>> Linked is a disad because you are permenantly linking two powers --
>> niether can be used alone and you lose overall effectiveness of the
>> powers.
>
> That last part is not quite correct. The flash attack is linked to the
>energy blast. For the flash to operate, the energy blast must be fired.
But if
>you fire the energy blast, you do not have to activate the flash. The
energy
>blast is not limited. The flash attack is.
Rick, you just mentioned one of the two main points that sets off
acromonious debate -- it's not called the Great Linked Debate for nothing.
Even Steve Peterson, the final authority on anything to do with the Hero
System, is unsure as to whether a Power to which one is Linked can be used
without the Linked Power. My feeling is that even when the Limitation's
description was being written he was changing his mind.
Personally, I'm in the camp that says two Linked Powers must always be
used together. If you could the larger one separately (goes my logic),
then how would one Limit the Powers so that you couldn't? You can't buy
Linked on the larger Power (it says so right there under Linked).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 06:46:53 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Mulitple move bys
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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At 10:22 PM 12/8/97 -0500, Kevin J. McClain wrote:
>I was wondering if anyone had an opinion or idea (I'm sure everyone
>does) about how to construct a teleporting character who does multiple
>move bys like Excalibur's Nightcrawler. Specifically the mechanics
>behind the maneuver. In the past I allowed a character to simply do it
>as if he were running as long as he had enough teleport inches to make
>it to each target, in effect treating it like any other movement power.
>Some of the gamers around here feel that the maneuver has to be
>constructed with powers. Any ideas ?
Well, it's not really a teleporting Multiple Move By, since Teleport has
no velocity (it's the only Movement Power without velocity).
What I've tried for this is applying an NND attack Linked to Teleport
(with other appropriate Modifiers), and then making both the NND and the
Teleport Autofire. It stretches the rules a bit, but it works.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 07:05:20 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Hanging Onto the Edge
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 05:41 PM 12/9/97 -0800, Rick Holding wrote:
>Bob Greenwade wrote:
><<snipped>>
>> You are certainly correct here. The minimum of DEF+BODY of the
>> building, the DEF+BODY of the vehicle, and 320d6 (or, by the Champions II
>> table, 23d6). My mistake.
>
> What about the <possible urban myth> piece of straw driven through walls
>during a cyclone (hurricane for you northern types) with no damage. Maybe
its a
>little none effect of really high speeds giving immense amounts of extra PD.
That's fine for a piece of straw going through a wall or (in the
rendition I've heard) sheet of regular paper chopping down a tree. The
front end of a car is somewhat blunter than that.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:30:43 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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> > This whole discussion is MOOT.
> >
> > I can simply use "limited" to design a custom version of linked that works
> > however I desire for the given character at hand.
>
> Hmmm. Actually, I believe that using one limitation to simulate
> another would be verboten in Hero terms.
'verboten'?
Well, I can use limited to design any limitation I desire. So I could just
design a limitation that reads:
"Power X can only be used when power Y is in use", then assign that
limitation to power X.
Or for the other side of the camp, I make a limitation that says:
"Powers X and Y can only be used in combination".
Nothing illegal there. The only argument now is what are they worth?
-1/4, -1/2, or -3/4.
And that's a GM call. Personally, in my games the first one
would be a -1/2 on power X. The second would be a -1/2 on the less
expensive of the two powers.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 07:48:57 -0800
From: Nicole Webb <nwebb@ups.edu>
Subject: regarding champion adventures breaking up the monotony
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Tokyo Mark wrote:
> I've kept considering doing a villain game sometime,
> but I doubt my group would be into it. Even when I run gray morality
> games right now, they play heros.:)
>
If you want to run a villian game with your group, you need only
guidethem toward it. Players are pliable, and as long as you don't run
a game they have no interest in, at all, you shuld be able to get them
where you want them.
One way to add a nefarious eliment to our elete role-model
squadron,is to warp one character and let him loose. Secretly set up a
game time with Captian Wonderful, away from the rest of the team,
Makeing sure to tell Captian Wonderful not to dicuss the session with
Mr. Magnificance, or Altruisim Girl. When your chipper little victom
arives, smile your best smile, then drag him through moral greyness, and
mind games. Do not relent until the poor captian is quite insain, then
proceed with your campain.
Alternitively, if you want the whole group to wear black hats,
be a little insidious about character creation. Tell your players not
to share information about their characters outside the game session,
then sit down with each player before they write up characters, and give
them some guidance. During your individual guidance session, encorage
secrets and deception, and tell everybody that sombody is working
against the group. Also suggest, to each player that the group may be
working against them.
The distrust this will cause will go a long way toward creating a
villianous flavor. Spice this up with some important questions about
modivation, and means of operation, and you ought to be able to squeeze
villians out of the most heroic players.
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: GRG, San Angelino, and even Sengoku (was Re: Greetings)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:13:20 +0000 (GMT)
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> to change that trend. But as I said earlier, I'm here now. bend my ear. ;)
>
Better be careful saying that. Someone at a con might just reach
across the table and do it. :)
> Understood. One quick question... is there a DIGEST version of this thing?
> My e-mail has doubled in the last day! <LOL> And that's saying something!
>
You and me both. Just wait till somebody bounces something. :)
I'd learn to use filters if I were you. I set em up on netscape and home
so I can have it all presorted before I get to it. That way I don't have
to deal with topics I don't follow.
> None of the above. I don't know about you guys, by feeling is that more
> Hero-sympathetic people in WotC is a *good* thing. Shadis has already run an
> article for AD&D. I would say that times are changing, and for the better. Who
> knows. Perhaps AD&D --> Fuzion --> Hero System conversions are coming down the
> pike? No secret info, just speculation.
>
Well, I must say I hope you're right. The guys at the local store here
in San Francisco tell me the CCG market is dying at their end, with the
sole exception of Magic. WoTC may have just gone into AD&D in order to
ensure they have a broad enough line in case things go bad in one of them. A
smart company keeps many lines, even poorly performing ones. As what's hot
today is cold tommorow, and what's cold today may be hot tommorow.
If they're really smart they'd make a grab for the video game market
and use all three to promote each other; ensuring greater stability in lean
times.
> << BTW, who in their right mind would hire Steve P. to sell / market anything?
> Considering Hero's great success in the market. :) >>
> That's a pretty cheap shot. For one thing, ICE was in charge of advertising
> and marketing the Hero products, not Hero. I guess you could say the same
> thing about us, then.
>
Ok yeah, you're right. I remember ICE mostly used Hero to promote
Rolemaster, with very little of the reverse. Or so it both appeared and the
rumor mill claimed.
> << If it's anything like Astro City you can count me in. >>
>
> Funny. I get that reaction a lot. I can tell you that Kurt Busiek has seen
> even given us a quote to use. San Angelo is certainly *not* an "Astro City
> RPG," but probably as close as you will ever come to one.
>
Perhaps this tells you something.
The fans (at least this one) want 4-color but realistic. Or rather "4-color
Modern" as our local group has taken to calling it. A world where Heroes
are Heroes. Where there is no rationale behind "Super-Powers", They just
exist. Where heroes have morals, but are not perfect. They make mistakes but
understand it when they do.
I think current comic industry troubles have shown that the "Image"
style of amoral T&A is doing more harm than good to the industry. Comics have
lost the respect they achieved for a short while in the 80's.
> Absolutely not. We will be posted Fuzion stats for characters to our web
> site, but the 4th Ed. books will remain just that -- 4th Ed. books.
>
That's cool. I personally think Fuzion is incomplete. I think in it's
current incarnation, it doesn't handle the super genre well. Heck, I'd say
GURPS works better. I hero and V&V where gone today, and I couldn't find a
used copy of DC, I'd use GURPS before Fuzion. For Sci Fi I might use Fuzion.
And once Usagi hits the stands here you can bet it will be on my
bookshelf. No, let me restate that. I'll be dragging it around in my
bookbag like some geek kid, trying to find people willing to do a serious
'furry' game.
Any plans to expand Sengoku out to China and Korea. I'd kill for a
game that did a good job of showing 'medevil Korea'. I get so tired of
reminding people it exists and played so major a role in the history of
the region.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
X-Originating-IP: [206.88.2.1]
From: "Todd Hanson" <badtodd@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 10:18:56 CST
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GoldRushG said:
> Hey, it's great to be on the list! If I can answer any other
qwuestions, let
>me have 'em! Those that are more for Hero Games I will have to defer to
Steve
>Peterson, though.
Okay, here's one for you:
Are there any plans for more superhero miniatures in the foreseeable
future? Ever since Soldiers & Sorcery (? is that the name? doesnt sound
exactly right) stopped doing the Champions minis (did they go out of
business?), there's nobody left doing superhero miniatures.
Is this something you guys would even be involved in? If someone were
to produce quality superhero miniatures, would Gold Rush Games be
interested in marketing them?
Todd
______________________________________________________
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Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 10:39:10 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 10:05 PM 12/8/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>Linked is a disad because you are permenantly linking two powers --
>niether can be used alone and you lose overall effectiveness of the
>powers.
And because it is the philosophy of the game designers that the mere
strategum of using 2 powers together isn't as effective as using one bigger
power.
Imagine 2 Linked 5d6 EBs vs. 1 10d6 EB. Since you get defenses against each
attack, the second power is a superior construction and thus should cost
more than the first.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good |
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) |
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Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 10:39:14 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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At 05:48 PM 12/9/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>AJ> Universal Foci. Gives 'usable by others' for free.
>
>Almost... it ties back to having to pay for anything that you frequently
>use. If you frequently loan your Focused powers out to your allies, those
>to whom you loan should purchase the powers for themselves.
Uh ... no. Rather, you "pay" for this ability with the possibility of
having the power stolen AND used *against* you by your enemies. And in any
case, even if it got REALLY obnoxious, I'd prefer to make the single
character work out a UBO structure rather than require other characters to
pay points for what is still an ability of the first.
They benefit from it, but only to the same degree that a character benefits
from the presence of any teammate. I'm currently in a campaign where I play
the brickish sidekick [Castle] of swashbuckling vigilante Cavalier. Does he
pay for super strength, OAF: Castle? Should I buy chemistry skills, IAF:
Cavalier?
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) |
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Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 10:39:16 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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At 02:48 PM 12/9/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>On Monday, December 08, 1997 11:13 PM, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
><snip>
>>
>> Actually, both attacks *are* limited, you are only allowed the
>>disad on the one, however, for balance reasons. That's part of the
>>disadvantage, you get points for the smaller, but both are affected.
>>
>
>Again, there is no official ruling. You are both right.
In fact, to be more accurate, there's no such thing as an "official ruling"
in HERO. Steve Peterson says:
"Our official position is that all rules are optional; each GM
should decide for themselves what rules to use. The rules in
the Hero System rulebook (which is included in Champions 4th
Edition) cover most situations pretty well. However, we've
presented many other rules in other books, either as variants
or rules for other situations not covered in the basic rules.
Whether or not those rules are used is up to the GM in each
case; we don't think that our opinion should be held over that
of an individual GM. Each GM should make their rule choices as
they see fit, to make the game suit their own style, and their
sense of what is fun. We tend to like most of the optional
rules we've presented, otherwise we wouldn't have presented
them. But that doesn't mean we use those rules all of the
time, or that all of us at Hero hold each of those rules in
the same esteem. Opinions vary, and that's as it should be, or
so we think."
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) |
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: San Angelino (Re: Greetings)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:47:38 +0000 (GMT)
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> << I personally am looking forward to seeing "San Angelo: City of Heroes" I
> down loaded the promo, I had some trouble with the formating, but as for
> content it read really well, and seemed to be headed in the right direction.
>
> Thank you. Pat (the author) will appreciate the comments. In fact, I *may*
> be able to get him on this list, too.
>
> << What type of characters will be in the book? Will we be bale to get
> electronic versions from the web site? Fusion versions? Heromaker? >>
>
Question on San Angelino:
1. What's the ethnic makeup? And don't just tell me 'everyone'. :)
This plays a major role in cultures and relations.
Are the asian groups Chinese, Korean, Mhong, Philipino, Laotian,
Vietnamese...
Are my hispanics Mexican, Mexican-American, Guatamalin, Columbian,
Cuban (not likely on the west coast...), Peruvian...
Are my caucasians WASP, Russian emmigrants, Irish, Italian...
Are my blacks Carribean, Afro-American, African...
Pakistani or Indian?
Any Reservations nearby?
Do they get along like in SF, or kill each other when possible like in
LA?
Seperate neighborhoods (LA), or mixed in on the same streets (SF)?
2. Are we thinking a Northen CA style community or Southern CA style? It
read like a southern city from the intro. Kind of made me think of
San Diego meets Santa Cruz.
Yeah yeah, I know Santa Cruz is almost Northern... but they have
that beach boy thing going...
You know, northern is typical liberal, counterculture, lots of
fringe groups, and multi-ethnic.
southern is more conservative, trend setting, hollywood, anti
immigrant, seperate races.
3. With the 'scientific' origin of powers, what kinds of origins are
going to be 'out'? No magic, faerie realm, undead, psycho-activated
(I think I am, therefore reality for me became that way), alien,
X-dimensional, destiny, demi-god, etc type origins? I imagine it's
too late, but I personally prefer worlds that leave the nature of
Super Powers as vague and unknown. Leaving the field open to all the
genre's full absurdity.
4. There's more stuff to say, but I'll get to it as I think of it.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:01:29 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> <snip>
> > And yes, there are plans to reprint the Champions core book when
> current
> >copies run out. But we currently have a good number of copies of the
> Champions
> >Deluxe hardback (w/o software) that it probably won't be until late
> next year
> >or early '99 that you'd see a new Champions (did I say 5th Ed.?)
> book.
>
> Good question. Did you say 5th Ed.? If so, listen to this group
> frequently, and take lots of notes.
>
Yeah.
That's a common topic in here. The old:
"If you were to write 5th edition, what would you change?"
In fact, we just finished that one a week or two before you joined.
Somebody may have it archived if you want to know. I know I still have
my wish list at home. :)
Much as I just told you to hold back the spam ( :) ); I'd
love it if you used us for market reseach into what would make good
future products.
Remember for every one of us in here, there is often a whole
gaming group out there that we GM or talk with. So word from here
does spread pretty far at times.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:18:42 +0000 (GMT)
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> >Well, I can use limited to design any limitation I desire. So I could just
> >design a limitation that reads:
> > "Power X can only be used when power Y is in use", then assign that
> >limitation to power X.
> >
> > Or for the other side of the camp, I make a limitation that says:
> >
> > "Powers X and Y can only be used in combination".
> >
> >Nothing illegal there. The only argument now is what are they worth?
> >-1/4, -1/2, or -3/4.
> > And that's a GM call. Personally, in my games the first one
> >would be a -1/2 on power X. The second would be a -1/2 on the less
> >expensive of the two powers.
> >
> In which case, I (if in your games) would take the first on both Powers,
> since I save more points, and it does the same as the second. Exactly the
> same.
>
In which case as a GM I would simply remove it from the larger power.
Or rule that since X has to be on to use Y, and Y has to be on to use X, you
can't use either since neither can ever come on...
Chicken or the Egg after all.
HOWEVER. I do like what I'm hearing here from others about the first one
being only a -1/4 lim. I'll have to think about why I listed it as a -1/2.
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:06:13 -0200 (EDT)
From: Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria <gevaerd@laranjeiras.lci.ufrj.br>
Reply-To: Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria <gevaerd@laranjeiras.lci.ufrj.br>
Subject: Re: regarding champion adventures breaking up the monotony
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> Tokyo Mark wrote:
> > I've kept considering doing a villain game sometime,
> > but I doubt my group would be into it. Even when I run gray morality
> > games right now, they play heros.:)
Err well... the opposite happens to me. In about 5 adventures, each
lasting about 2 or 3 sessions, 3 of my "heroes" died. And ALL of those
deaths were generated by the others "heroes" in the group. I let them
create the heroes with any personality they wanted, I just did not let
anyone whose personality would be of a robber, evil person, etc. So I
would say that with one exception, all of them are lunatic (the exception
is one of those killed :))
One of them already killed some policemen and almost killed one member
of the group (the exception, killed later) thanks to his beserk :)
The Deaths:
One was smashed down to -15 body (got impariment on his chest) and died
from his bleedings cause the brick tried to carry him, but he has an awful
disadvantage: he doesn't have good control of his strength (110), he
always uses A LOT MORE he wants to.
Another one had about 5 psycological limitations, all circling around
things like: likes to give orders, does not accept ANY kind of humilation,
likes to say jokes about people, etc. This one, in the first adventure he
participated with the group was just like this: he started to give orders
to the group, and as always the group ignored (almost everyone ignores one
another). He does not like to be ignored, so he shot a weak energy blast
on them. They kept ignoring him and went away, with one exception who
stood still. He kept giving order to him, increasing the power of his
shots and finally the other guy got pissed off, autofired on him, he got
stunned and his force field turned off... as the force field turned off
the other guy did not think twice... AUTOFIRE ON HIM! And I did not even
had the opportunity to use his 14d6 of unluck.
And finally the other one was captured by his hunters, an organization
more powerful that appeared very frequently that he wanted to put as a
disadvantage on his char. As at that time almost all the rest of the group
was unconcious, because this PC arrived too late when they called him (he
was fooling around on his secret id), so he had to fight the hunters
almost alone. Captured, they put a bomb necklace on him, if he disobeyed
the orders they would explode his head off. When the group went there to
try to rescue him, they fought each other (his capturers ordered him to
neutralize the intruders) and he was knocked out. One person of the group
saw the necklace and broke it. It was also triggered to explode if broke,
so the wearer died and the one who broke it almost died (saved by his
regeneration... the brick also carried him and only did not kill him
because he has a biological armor, regeneration and there was already
paramedics outside the base (they made a big confusion before going into
the base (second death - the like-to-give-orders guy), what brought
policemen (some was killed by the berserk guy) and paramedics)).
From the initial group only two characters are still alive, the guy
with berserk, and the guy with regeneration.
I can see much more deaths on the future... and they happen really in
funny ways... caused by the PCs, of course :).
I have not against these crazy kinds of heroes... actually I prefer
them... make the game much more funny and unpredictable.
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 18:28:36 +0000
From: ORT2 <ORT2@prodigy.net>
Reply-To: ORT2@prodigy.net
Organization: Prodigy Internet
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Greetings
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> Are there any plans for more superhero miniatures in the foreseeable
> future? Ever since Soldiers & Sorcery (? is that the name? doesnt sound
> exactly right) stopped doing the Champions minis (did they go out of
> business?), there's nobody left doing superhero miniatures.
>
>
To my knowledge, the company did go out of bussiness (taking about a
$100 dollar order that I had send and sending me nothing in return,
bummer). I would be interested in a company that did sell Super Hero
minatures, but I would be a bit hesitant to order from them initially
(fool me once shame on you, foo me twice, well you know the rest).
Just putting in my 28.8 1/2 bps worth
Owen
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 09 Dec 1997 14:35:13 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "UTI" == Urklore The Iron <urklore@tiac.net> writes:
UTI> The link is a 1/2 disadvantage, but is it really?
That depends on whether it is a limitation or not.
Seriously.
If the use of the power is somehow restricted, then it is a limitation. If
the use of the power is not restricted, then it is not a limitation and it
is worth no bonus. If the modifer allows a power to do something that it
is not normally capable of doing it is an advantage.
It is really that simple, so draw your own conclusions.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
\
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Locks
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 09 Dec 1997 14:38:39 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
F> When I lost my only set of keys to a car I had just bought, I called a
F> locksmith. He took a blank key and a file, put the key in the lock,
F> wiggled it, examined the marks this made, and filed it with the
F> cylindrical file.
Yup. This is a common locksmith's trick. Using a slim jim can damage the
locking mechanism, especially if you have power locks. This technique will
not break anything, and it is pretty much guaranteed to work given a
locksmith of professional caliber (11-).
The drawback is that it takes much longer than any other method.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Hanging Onto the Edge
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:54:04 -0800
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On Monday, December 08, 1997 5:07 PM, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Filksinger wrote:
>
>> Long ago, the Paranoia game recommended that, in the event that
>> nuclear weapons are used, you should run over the playing area with
a
>> lawn mower.:)
>
>And then there was the NATO/Warsaw Pact simulation that recommended
>lighting the mapboard on fire in advent of a nuclear exchange.
You forgot the lighter fluid.
I have a friend who used to work for SGI. That was _his_ rule.
Please forgive me for forgetting it, John! Oh, the shame!
Filksinger
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:55:05 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: The PC becoming a NPC ( a story)...
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Ok, it has been a long time since we talked about this. I've been behind on
catching up with Champions mail. Just lurking for the most part, but saving
stuff I've been meaning to reply to and trying to keep it timely. This post
isn't timely, but someone did want to hear about it. A while back when we
were talking about the Pet NPC, I mentioned that one of my players turned
his PC into a NPC by choice and someone asked for the story of how this came
about. So sit back and enjoy the tale, comment if you wish, but try not to
criticize. This game happened over a year ago, all of the players enjoyed
the game including the one that died and the one that became the NPC, so
without further chatter from me, I'll go on.
It seems that the Rock Band, the Grave Diggers consisted mostly of mutants.
Mutants that were constantly getting in trouble with the law and naturally
attracting the attention of Genocide on a regular basis and usually foiling
their plans. The band consisted of the lead singer and animal polymorph,
Tigger. She was married to Viper one of the band's guitar's player who was
a powerful energy manipulator capable of creating a strong forcefield and
energy punch. The second guitar player was a master martial artist and had
one basic power of turning of invisible, his name was Pitbull. Viper had a
brother who appeared later known as CrossRoads. He shared the power as his
brother, capable of creating a powerful forcefield, but only around his
hands, not only did he have the capability for a high energy punch, but he
could blast the energy from his hands as well. Then there is the star of
our story, Croc. He joined the band as a drummer. He was capable of
turning into living metal with strength and armor equal to well...ok, you
get the idea, a version of Colossus from Marvel.
Now that you know the cast, on with the story (I'll try to keep it short)....
In the first part of the campaign Tigger, Viper, and Pitbull are captured by
Genocide. An explosive collar is placed around all three of their necks
that also prohibits the use of their powers. Tigger and Viper were handed
over to an unstable doctor for genetic experimenting. Pitbull was thrown
into a holding cell until he died or some useful project could be assigned
to him. When Croc and CrossRoads came in for the rescue saving Pitbull and
scaring the unstable Doctor, he released Tigger but then shot himself in the
head and died before removing Viper's collar. Viper hearing all the gunfire
and explosions told Tigger to leave him, he would find his own way out and
rejoin her as usual. The romantic kiss, she turns into a fox and slips out
the air ducts. Viper finding the control pad for the collars with unlabled
buttons starts pushing buttons at random. He heard the death scream and
explosion of a fellow mutant off in the distance. He then gave it some
thought, "If I press the wrong button, I die. Oh well, you only live once."
To his shock he failed, the collar screamed then exploded thus killing Viper.
A few months later. Tigger finds little comfort with the death of Viper.
CrossRoads does the best he can to fill his brother's void, but he still can
not fill the role of the husband she lost. In a local battle with a few low
level supervillians, CrossRoads snaps and brings a building down on top of
the entire team. Croc easily tosses the rubble aside digging out Tigger who
was lucky enough to become a fox and find a small air pocket. He then
locates Pitbull, badly hurt, but alive, and CrossRoads who was amazed and
unscathed by the damage he did. One more suprise was dug up though, Viper,
not dead, but unconscious.
They took the Pitbull and Viper back to the med lab at base where they
called in a doctor to take a look at Viper. He was alive, but there was
something odd about him. While Croc, Tigger, and CrossRoads were standing
around him in disbelief, he rose from the table, started hovering turned
into a demon, and opened a portal that dragged the three heroes into the
Underworld.
It seems a certain demon took interest in the Grave Diggers and wanted his
own collection. Viper, though technically dead was whole here and a
prisoner. He was bait to grab the rest of the Grave Diggers.
Ok, so this story is going on longer than I hoped. I'm going to cut to the
main part of this. Fights happen, freedom is almost gained, then the main
demon of the realm shows up. Remember this story is about a PC becoming a
NPC Villian.
The demon approaches them, though the heroes plan on fighting for their
lives, the demon makes them a better offer. He will grant them anything
they want for their souls.
Croc steps up and says, "In that case, I want to be the most powerful being
in the Underworld." The demon laughs, "Little man, wish granted, but you
will find that your mortal shell can not contain that power."
In a flash Croc begins to glow red hot, his facial features begin to distort
and melt, but with a wave of his hands he sends his friends, including Viper
back to Earth, alive and well. Then he screams for mercy, "I will be a
general in your army if you let me live!" With a grin the demon accepts.
The other players and myself ask if he knows what he is saying here, at best
he could be a PC Villian at worst, he loses the character and it becomes a
NPC. He knows, as I said in the thread a long time ago, he had planned from
day one to turn this character into a villian, he was just looking for the
right time. Becoming a general in a demon's army was a pretty impressive
villian versus becoming a bank robber or something along those lines. Since
then, he has played the character as a villian twice and the character has
showed up as an NPC twice which he has fought against. Everyone seems to
enjoy the villian's appearance whenever he is in a game.
Well, that is it. Sorry where I babbled on and sorry where I cut it short.
If you have questions, I can try to answer, I'm sure this isn't completely
accurate anyway since it was a year ago. Sorry if the writing seems
patchworked and for any typing errors, this was done late at night, then
worked on more early in the morning. Just sending it out now. Take it easy
and talk at you later.
Sparx
=====================================================
Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children.
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Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 14:58:10 -0500
From: "Aldo J. Regalado" <aregalad@miami.edu>
Subject: Re: Greetings
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Greetings Yourself!
I for one am VERY pleased to read your announcement and am anxiously
anticipating the San Angelo line of products. I downloaded the first two
chapters and I liked what I read. It seems like the type of supplement I've
been waiting for for years. Well thought out, well planned supplements that
flow into each other and make a concious effort to build a campaign have
been sorely lacking in the HERO line.
I have not (and will not) buy any of the recent Champions supplements. I'm
not bitter about this, but I just don't have an interest in them. However,
rest assured that I'll buy San Angelo.
Take care,
Dragonfly
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:58:54 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1
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I know I'm behind here, but I really wanted to toss in two fights I really
enjoyed, both are fun fights, not too serious, but they both popped into my
mind instantly.
The Hulk vs X-Factor (Multiple Man in particular)
The Tick vs the The Tick (Barry from the cartoon)
Barry: Say Uncle
Tick: Ok, Uncle
Barry: What IS MY NAME!!!???
Tick: Barry, Barry, Barry, Barry, Barry...
Take it easy and talk at you later.
Sparx
=====================================================
Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children.
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Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:01:29 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Making the Speedster
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I don't know if someone posted this yet or not, but I was working on a
Speedster a while back and someone sent me this file. So here it is:
Absorption : how about a speedster that absorbs kinetic energy, hence
that's why they move so fast. Put the points into flight/running.
Aid: Here's an odd one, aid (or drain) to flight while running. Basically
the wind currents from your fantastic speed add to your people in the
area. (Use area effect, must be moving)
Armor: Bullet has extra armor (helmet) only for move throughs.
Change Enviroment: Create fantastic winds as you breeze past. OR change
the currents of the stream/ocean.
(Flash often made winds, or caused tidal waves. Be careful your not using
another power here though)
Clairsentience: Move around so fast, it's like seeing in two or three
places at the same time! (use all senses, not through locked rooms,
limited range)
Darkness: Clouds of dust as you run, breezing whirlwinds, and probably
some others.
Desolidification: Move so fast you just can't be hit. Vibrate your body
(ala the Flash) so that your molecules will vibrate and become
intangible. (this one is stretching it, but it IS from DC books)
Duplication: well, this is an odd way of doing a speedster. Duplicate
only lasts while moving.
("Damn, He moves so fast it looks like theres 4 of him!)
Energy Blast: Energy blast, defined as a punch.Good way to attack hand to
hand and still end up in a different hex from your opponent.
(How did he hit me from there?!) Also of course, Autofire, area effect
selective target (wow, he ran past and punched everyone in the room).
Enhanced Senses: WEll, if you can be aware while moving at 200 mph +
per hour, then many different types of senses might make sense.
Entangle: Coils rapped around people, nets, wind tunnels or vortexes
preventing movement (combined with NND attacks that remove air), bags
over the head, building steel cages around the person, building a small
fort, whatever...
Extra Dimensional movement: Moving faster than light, our hero found
himself Propelled through time.
Faster than LIght Travel: I included this one as a power that some
speedsters think they can use, and generally can not. It requires space
flight, which few true speedsters actually have (unless it's a true
flying speedster)
Flash: Dust, placing a blindfold on someone, putting a bag on thier head,
pulling their shirt over their head, many more..
Flight: This is the best way to by truly super running. In fact, the only
reason to by running instead for a speedster, is for a more basic,
grittier feel, and to avoid the turn mode difficulty. with running, you
can't go up buildings (without
clinging), Run across water, move across flying shards of glass on an
exploding building (the flash again...i loved this one) and all those
other cool tricks.
Gliding: When you have that much momentum, it would be nice to slow
yourself down. Perhaps your speedster has reduced masss which helps
explain their speed. This would allow gliding easily.
HtH attack: In the few games where this is legal, it's very useful. Too
useful. Many people feel the power should not exist, but it does.
Images: Make after images of yourself across the room. Basically keep
moving back and forth so fast, that it looks like theres two of you, or a
trail of you.
Instant change: Well, with the recent Usable on others thread, I doubt
theres much I can add. Basically, blink, a new outfit.
Invisibility: ("Wow. He moves so fast I can't even see him")
Knockback resistance: just moving forward to counter being knocked back.
life Support: Well, in reality, if you COULD run at MACH 1+ you'd need to
not have to breath, immune to heat.
Mind Link: Getting to the really ridiculous, running to almost anywhere
in the world someone is, to relay messages only. Would take some
explaining for why you can't do more than relay messages. Maybe
Clairsentience + Images would be better.
Mind Scan: One of the first weird ones I pulled. Running through the city
at incredible speeds, searching every room, every building, every nook
and cranny, our hero found the villian in jsut a few seconds :)
Missle Deflection and Reflection: Running ahead of the bullets, he
grabbed them and veered htem in a new direction, pointed straight back at
the one who pulled the trigger.
Regeneration: "Good thing my super metabolism heals at such an
extraordinairy rate"
Running: useful for those gritter mood speedsters. sometimes you might
add running and flight to get around the turn mode difficulty
Stretching: LIke EB, just define it as actually moving to a place, and
moving back.
Summon: "Wait here guys. I'll run out to the woods 75 miles away, and
grab a forest animal at random" OR "We're lost in a desert with no one
around, I'll run into town really quick and get someone to help us, then
bring htem back here."
Superleap: Another movement power, this can work fine. Legs that can run
that fst, can surely jump.
Suppress: movement powers (grab em, put them back wehere they were),
physical thrown things (similar to deflection, lowering the velocity)
*This is really pushing it*
Swimming: Movement powers rule!
Telekinisis: "Watch, I can run over to that table, pour myself a drink,
and bring it back here so fast, you'll never see me move!"
Teleportation: Second only to flight in simulating amazing movement. Just
like Invisibility, basically moving so fast no one saw you move. (No
floating locations, not through locked rooms)
"Damn, how'd he get out here, we left him in there"
Transform: Theres always uses for transform. As others mentioned,
changing someones clothes MIGHT be a transform, Transform full glass to
empty glass (see telekinises), empty gas tank to full gas tank: barren
wall to painted wall, dirty kitchen to clean kitchen, Tall grass to mowed
lawn...etc..
Tunneling: Fastest shovel in the west!
Talents:
Absolute time sense
Bump of direction (I'll run ahead and make sure we're going the right way!)
Eidetic Memory:"Hmm..I'll run across town and look that up again, jsut to
be sure!"
Fast Draw: for that heroic level speedster (?!)
Lightning calculator (obvious)
SImulate Death: "My complete control over my hyper metabolism, allows me
to slow my heartbeat to a crawl!"
Speed reading: (And a HALF..theres probalby a better way to simulate this)
Universal Translator: I just thought of this one. "Damn, I don't speak
Chinese, Let me run to china inbetween sentences, to ask someone what you
are saying!" (perhaps only with earth languages as a limitation")
Take it easy and talk at you later.
Sparx
=====================================================
Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children.
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Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:04:54 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Any Published Champions Speedsters?
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Off hand I can think of Blue Streak from one of the Almanacs or Champions
Presents. I'm sure there are more, but I just used him lately so I know he
is there. Take it easy and talk at you later.
Sparx
=====================================================
Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children.
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:05:20 -0800
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On Monday, December 08, 1997 5:37 PM, Urklore The Iron wrote:
>The link is a 1/2 disadvantage, but is it really?
>
>Let's say I want to have a Hero who wields twin UZIs. Each has a
5-shot
>Autofire. Normally he would have one and only fire 5 shots, if I put
a link
>disadvantage to one of the guns and link it to the main gun. We now
have an
>attack that can do TWO 5-shot autofires!! At a reduced point cost on
the
>second power to boot!!! Does anyone see a problem with this.
>Another example is I could have a 12d6 photon blast, and link a 3d6
flash
>to it as well. Now we have a 12d6 EB along with a 3d6 flash (even
though it
>does require another hit roll) that can be done all in one phase.
You have a point, but you are only partly correct. Linked powers fire
as _one_ power, thus, you cannot use them on separate targets. Thus,
two linked 5-shot autofires act as one 10-shot autofire, but cost
more. You can shoot more than one person, but only because you can do
that with autofire anyway. The only real advantage, which is also a
disadvantage, is that you can only shoot five targets instead of ten,
but you hit each target twice.
However, in your second example, you only need one hit roll.
Filksinger
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:09:57 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Greetings
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Hey I wouldn't mind seeing the new city book. Along with that I was just
thinking I throw out some other things I wouldn't mind seeing. I'm behind
on e-mail so I figure this has probably already gone on, or maybe I'll start
a new thread :)
I personally wouldn't mind seeing more Ultimate Books, more Endless Enemies
(I use them for everything). Scenario books are good ecspecially when they
include a good handful of new villians. Something along the lines of
Classic Champions would be nice where we could see some of the older
villians from all those enemy books actually upgraded and in some sort of
scenario thus giving them more depth, so a scenario book where we see some
old faces with face lifts is what I'm saying here. Well, just my two cents
worth. Take it easy and talk at you later.
Sparx
=====================================================
Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children.
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X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 15:15:25 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1
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At 01:58 PM 12/9/97 -0600, Sparx wrote:
>The Tick vs the The Tick (Barry from the cartoon)
> Barry: Say Uncle
> Tick: Ok, Uncle
>
> Barry: What IS MY NAME!!!???
> Tick: Barry, Barry, Barry, Barry, Barry...
>
Good choice. "Who's the jerk who calls himself the Tick?" "I am that jerk."
- Jerry
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Locks
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:32:56 -0500
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Filksinger said:
>> He took a blank key and a file, put the key in the lock,
>> wiggled it, examined the marks this made, and filed it with the
>> cylindrical file.
Rat said:
>Yup. This is a common locksmith's trick
>The drawback is that it takes much longer than any other method.
One advantage, though, is that it's quick and portable. If I want to get
into your car or your home, I can quickly jiggle a key in your lock, and
come back later with a perfect match. Very inconspicuous.
Dave Mattingly
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com>
Subject: The Tick (was Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:59:12 -0500
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>>The Tick vs the The Tick (Barry from the cartoon)
>> Barry: Say Uncle
>> Tick: Ok, Uncle
>>
>> Barry: What IS MY NAME!!!???
>> Tick: Barry, Barry, Barry, Barry, Barry...
>Good choice. "Who's the jerk who calls himself the Tick?" "I am that
jerk."
Actually, for verbal sparring, I preferred the Tick versus the Common
Cold, myself.
"It's Thrakazog!"
"Box of frogs?"
Dave Mattingly
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:02:21 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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> This whole discussion is MOOT.
>
> I can simply use "limited" to design a custom version of linked that works
> however I desire for the given character at hand.
Hmmm. Actually, I believe that using one limitation to simulate
another would be verboten in Hero terms.
-Tim Gilberg
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 16:10:00 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: The Tick (was Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1)
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At 03:59 PM 12/9/97 -0500, Dave Mattingly wrote:
>>>The Tick vs the The Tick (Barry from the cartoon)
>>> Barry: Say Uncle
>>> Tick: Ok, Uncle
>>>
>>> Barry: What IS MY NAME!!!???
>>> Tick: Barry, Barry, Barry, Barry, Barry...
>
>>Good choice. "Who's the jerk who calls himself the Tick?" "I am that
>jerk."
>
>Actually, for verbal sparring, I preferred the Tick versus the Common
>Cold, myself.
>
>"It's Thrakazog!"
>"Box of frogs?"
>
"Four yacks and a dog?"
"Sapsucker frog?"
"Susan?"
- Jerry
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:11:22 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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> That depends on whether it is a limitation or not.
Well duh. But you'll probably take this bvious statement to try
to force through the untrue and unobvious.
> Seriously.
Just stalling, here.
> If the use of the power is somehow restricted, then it is a limitation. If
> the use of the power is not restricted, then it is not a limitation and it
> is worth no bonus. If the modifer allows a power to do something that it
> is not normally capable of doing it is an advantage.
>
> It is really that simple, so draw your own conclusions.
Rat, Rat, Rat. What are we going to do with you. What Rat has
forgotten to mention is that in certain circumstances in the Hero rules,
disadvantages *do* grant abilities not previously held by the powers.
They just are more disadvantageous than they are advantageous. Simple.
-Tim Gilberg
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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Date: 09 Dec 1997 16:14:09 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
TRG> Rat, Rat, Rat. What are we going to do with you. What Rat has
TRG> forgotten to mention is that in certain circumstances in the Hero
TRG> rules, disadvantages *do* grant abilities not previously held by the
TRG> powers. They just are more disadvantageous than they are
TRG> advantageous. Simple.
Show me one other than the (controversial) Linked (which I maintain is not
an exception).
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin.
\
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Locks
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 09 Dec 1997 16:17:37 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "DM" == Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> writes:
DM> One advantage, though, is that it's quick and portable. If I want to
DM> get into your car or your home, I can quickly jiggle a key in your
DM> lock, and come back later with a perfect match. Very inconspicuous.
Um, no.
What this technique does is show you where to file; it does not show you
how deep. That requires several hits on the keyway. It is one of the
trickiest locksmithing techniques to master.
It is not quick, and it is not inconspicuous.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and
\ kept under refrigeration.
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 13:30:36 -0800
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Organization: McAfee
Subject: Re: regarding champion adventures breaking up the monotony
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Nicole Webb wrote:
>
> Tokyo Mark wrote:
> > I've kept considering doing a villain game sometime,
> > but I doubt my group would be into it. Even when I run gray morality
> > games right now, they play heros.:)
> >
<First suggestion snipped>
> Alternitively, if you want the whole group to wear black hats,
> be a little insidious about character creation. Tell your players not
> to share information about their characters outside the game session,
> then sit down with each player before they write up characters, and
> give them some guidance. During your individual guidance session,
> encorage secrets and deception, and tell everybody that sombody is
> working against the group. Also suggest, to each player that the
> group may be working against them.
> The distrust this will cause will go a long way toward creating a
> villianous flavor. Spice this up with some important questions about
> modivation, and means of operation, and you ought to be able to
> squeeze villians out of the most heroic players.
The best success we've had with villain groups was a Danger
International game set in the future. The game was supposed to
have a more Mission Impossible flavor, but the very first game the
characters all turned out to be either amoral or just plain sick.
We turned into a rather cruel mercenary group with some of the
characters having our own hidden agendas.
We never did have that final game where I'm sure half the team would
of died from other team members actions.
-Mark
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:47:56 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Reply-To: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: The PC becoming a NPC ( a story)...
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I have a somewhat similar story involving a PC hero who became a villain -
though he stayed a PC (occasionally.)
The Wraith was one of the longest running characters in a campaign I ran
intermittently for about 8 years. He was originally Stephen Royal, an
extraterrestrial geologist - that is, a geologist who specialized in
examining meteorites. On one job, he came into contact with a strange
crystal which turned out to be technology from an alien culture. His
nervous system bonded with the crystal, giving him the abilities of
desolidification and teleportation.
The Wraith's teleportation was awesome - hundreds of miles to start with,
and he soon worked his way up to planetwide teleportation. He couldn't do
much in a fight, though. He spent most of his time getting innocent
bystanders out of the way; the other heroes soon dubbed him "Captain Crowd
Control."
While well-intentioned, the Wraith tended to be a bit arrogant. He
generally acted like the group's leader, though they had no official
organization, and was quick to criticize the other heroes and issue
orders. This led to a fair amount of resentment against him.
Over time, the Wraith's abilities improved as the alien crystal continued
to metamorphose his body. He found he could teleport others a short
distance, and could disrupt matter (an RKA). With these changes, though,
his appearance became more like the crystalline aliens who had created
the artifact which was the source of his powers, and even his thought
patterns became more alien. The Wraith's strange behavior did little to
ingratiate him with the rest of the Brotherhood of Justice (as the PC's
group was now known.)
The time came when the Wraith's player was moving out of town. The timing
was right, though, as far as the game was concerned. The crystalline
aliens (I forget their name) had taken notice of the Earth, and of the
Wraith in particular. The device he had bonded with was quite important to
them. One night, the Wraith had a powerful urge to go out for a walk.
Strange lights were seen in the skies, and the Wraith was seen no more.
Months past, and the heroes soon put the Wraith out of their minds,
except for an occasional rude joke. Then came the alien invasion. While
the crystalline aliens were generally freedom-loving and democratic, they
valued life only in its silicon-based forms. When the Earth became a
strategic position in their ongoing war with a more belligerent power, the
crystalline beings thought nothing of occupying the heroes world. At the
head of the occupying force, in full battle gear, was the Wraith.
The player had come back to visit at a perfect time in my campaign. He and
I had discussed the changes the Wraith had been through, and he decided
that the Wraith would be fully sympathetic to the aliens' agenda. He did
argue for some consideration of the human race, but when the battle lines
were drawn, the Wraith stood with his new species.
The reactions among Earth's heroes were varied. A few PC's had gotten
along with the Wraith despite his arrogance, but even they doubted that
they could appeal to his human side. One of the more ruthless members of
the group responded to the Wraith's return with the remark "Oh good. Now
we get to kill him!"
The Wraith was last seen battling Mr. Earth in an alien fortress, shortly
before its power plant blew up. This battle turned back the alien
invasion, largely because of the noble self-sacrifice of Mr. Earth (Who
needed redemption after killing his own son - but that's another story.)
As for the Wraith: like any great villain, his body was never found...
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:53:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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Stainless Steel Rat writes:
> Show me one other than the (controversial) Linked (which I maintain is not
> an exception).
Charges, particularly continuing charges. Gives zero end and uncontrolled for
free.
Universal Foci. Gives 'usable by others' for free.
Historically, of course, there was 'always on', but that's been fixed in H4.
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:06:01 EST
Subject: Re: Greetings
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< Well, This is THE mailing list for YOUR (you and Steve) product. So you
should
have been here since day 1. Or in your case, the day you got your license. >>
We haven't published a 4th Ed. product since last August (Heroic Adventures
Vol. 2), and sales of that were not too great. But I fully expect San Angelo
to change that trend. But as I said earlier, I'm here now. bend my ear. ;)
<< But that's all spilt milk. Now that you're here, I expect regular
commentary. :)
As long as it's not all buy my stuff spam. :) >>
Not all of it will be, no. ;)
<< I'm not trying to flame you. Actually I've met you at a con and decided you
were genuinly enthusiastic, or just a good con. :) >>
Just genuinly enthusiastic *at* cons (conventiontion, I mean). ;)
<< However, the newsgroup is not product specific, AOL and Compuserv are
limited
forums, as is WebRPG and #herochat (DALnet IRC). This group is pretty large,
dedicated, active, and open to anyone with email. >>
Understood. One quick question... is there a DIGEST version of this thing?
My e-mail has doubled in the last day! <LOL> And that's saying something!
<< Uh-oh. TSR meets WoTC meets Hero. My fifth Level Malkavelian Brick Punches
your 6th level AC 6 Egoist for 5 successes? :) Or collectable Champions Card
Game? :) >>
None of the above. I don't know about you guys, by feeling is that more
Hero-sympathetic people in WotC is a *good* thing. Shadis has already run an
article for AD&D. I would say that times are changing, and for the better. Who
knows. Perhaps AD&D --> Fuzion --> Hero System conversions are coming down the
pike? No secret info, just speculation.
<< BTW, who in their right mind would hire Steve P. to sell / market anything?
Considering Hero's great success in the market. :) >>
That's a pretty cheap shot. For one thing, ICE was in charge of advertising
and marketing the Hero products, not Hero. I guess you could say the same
thing about us, then.
<< If it's anything like Astro City you can count me in. >>
Funny. I get that reaction a lot. I can tell you that Kurt Busiek has seen
the manuscript and likes it. We talked because I had heard "Geez, this is like
Astro City. It's great" a lot from fans. We wanted to avoid any potential
legal problems with Kurt and Homage Comics so we contacted him. We made a few
minror changes to satisfy his concerns, and everyone is happy. In fact, he's
even given us a quote to use. San Angelo is certainly *not* an "Astro City
RPG," but probably as close as you will ever come to one.
<< Hey no problem, I can't stand all that dark junk myself. >>
Different strokes for different folks. But we'll certainly be producing some
DC-style products for the San Angelo line, probably after the release of Dark
Champions 2nd Edition (coming from us, probably next year).
<< So does that mean they will all be lower power level than the BBB
characters?
Since while theBBB characters are all 250 points, they have no skills, perks,
or
dare I say... depth. Adding those things in will take away from other things
unless the points are raised. >>
The sample PCs are in the book for just that... they are samples. New
players (hint, hint) can simply pick one of them from the book and play. Of
course, the villains and other NPCs we present in the setting won't be
constrained to the 250 point max. As I said, we're going for depth, and that
means we'll need more points for some of them.
Another thing to consider, too, is that not all of our NPCs will be full-
blown supers. Some will be Low-Powered Metahumans (LPMs), to use a phrase from
Corporations.
<< Uh-Oh. See my above comments about WoTC/TSR. Can we add Fuzion into
thatequation as well? :) >>
Absolutely not. We will be posted Fuzion stats for characters to our web
site, but the 4th Ed. books will remain just that -- 4th Ed. books.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:06:03 EST
Subject: Re: Greetings
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< Welcome Mark! It's about darn time you got on this mailing list. :)>>
I just found the key. It seems someone sent it to the wrong address. ;)
Btw, folks, in case Michelle hasn't told oyu, she's doing some work for us
in the production department. Expect to see her name popping up in future
books of ours. ;)
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:06:05 EST
Subject: Re: Greetings
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< How's it going buddy? Hope your wife is doing well! >>
Much better, thanks (check out our web page for deatils and updates).
<< I personally am looking forward to seeing "San Angelo: City of Heroes" I
down loaded the promo, I had some trouble with the formating, but as for
content it read really well, and seemed to be headed in the right direction.
>>
Thank you. Pat (the author) will appreciate the comments. In fact, I *may*
be able to get him on this list, too.
<< What type of characters will be in the book? Will we be bale to get
electronic versions from the web site? Fusion versions? Heromaker? >>
Good ones? :D We'll have a variety of characters in the line. As for stats,
you can expect to see Fuzion stats for the characters as well as Character
Creator and HeroMaker stats, I would suspect.
<< Do you want to trade an ad in Herozine for a Review copy? >>
E-mail me re: this.
<< So many questions so little time.>>
Well, get to it, man! ;)
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:06:07 EST
Subject: Re: Greetings
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< Out of curiosity how much of the Champs stuff are you planning to do in San
Angelo. I remember seeing some blurbs for some other Champs books that looked
pretty interesting (the one about the cops/the law, and the time travel
adventures one). >>
We're planning a whole new campaign series. We have a lot of stuff planned,
including an Enemies book, a mystic sourcebook, an organizations book, a MAP
book, and more.
Law & Order will be a "stand-alone" Hero System genre book (like UMA or
Fantasy Hero), with *lots* of neat cop stuff for Hero System games. As soon as
I get the opportunity, I'm going to finish it. ::sigh:: It's just that our
plate is so full right now...
The time travel book you mentioned is probably Sands of Time, by Phil
Masters. That's in the final editing phase and will be released in the San
Angelo line next Spring!
<< I took a quick look at the download. I didn't see anything to make me gag
right off. >>
I guess that's a good thing.
<< Hope the quality is as good as the two Heroic Adventures. >>
Actually, no. It's going to be much, much better quality.
<< I've used a good number of those already. The bad guy in the Knightsabers
plot (the guy running the experiments) has joined Genocide here. 8). >>
Glad to hear it! I'm sure Greg will appreciate knowing his creations are
being put to use. ;) I really liked "Virtual Ice" in HA1. Very cool concept,
IMO. And the toilet illo... who else but GRG could get away with an illo of a
hero drinking from a toilet! <LOL> (You have to read the adventure to
understand what's really going on).
Mark @ GRG
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Greetings
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:35:43 -0800
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On Monday, December 08, 1997 9:58 PM, GoldRushG wrote:
<snip>
> And yes, there are plans to reprint the Champions core book when
current
>copies run out. But we currently have a good number of copies of the
Champions
>Deluxe hardback (w/o software) that it probably won't be until late
next year
>or early '99 that you'd see a new Champions (did I say 5th Ed.?)
book.
Good question. Did you say 5th Ed.? If so, listen to this group
frequently, and take lots of notes.
Filksinger
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 16:37:19 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
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At 11:32 PM 12/9/97 -0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>I have just acquired a copy of Ninja Hero, and I was wondering what the
>major differences between it and TUMA are. Mostly, is TUMA worth getting
>if I have NH? (I suspect it is.) How much of a rewrite am I going to have
>to do to the characters that I am rewriting now?
No rewrites are necessary, really -- the TUMA is a superset of Ninja HERO,
not a real revision. The most significant differences are (off the top of
my head):
1) There's now a "Flash" element available to do poke-in-the-eye
or earboxing maneuvers. Costs the same as NND; a good improvement
(I feel icky making my players spend points for things that
Joe Bloe can do).
2) There's now a "Disable" element available which doesn't cost
anything, and improves your chances of impairing or disabling
the target. It struck me as possibly being broken, since the
supposed "balancing limits" didn't seem all that limiting (for
example, it's required to be aimed at a specific hit location,
but it doesn't take any OCV penatly for a called shot).
3) There are rules for creating ranged martial arts styles
(not "thunderpunching", but rather things like Zen archery).
Struck me as a rather kneejerk set-up -- to the best of my
knowledge, even the most "martial-arty" of ranged weapon
training (aforementioned archery) simply does not break up
neatly into maneuvers like hand-to-hand fighting styles, so
this just doesn't feel right. I'd probably stick with Combat
Levels and called shots.
4) More martial arts styles, maneuvers, and weapons -- it
seems like a strong intent was made to process all other
RPGs' martial arts supplements and make sure nothing was
missing. Some of these new martial arts are so thinly
described, there's little point in including them; on the
other hand, the section on Pentjak Silat is so broad as to
make it a competitor in importance for Kung Fu.
5) There is LOTS and LOTS of padding. (Does anyone else feel
like using Dim Mak on S.L. just to keep him from making
*another* fictional style where every d*** maneuver is "The
{adjective}{move} of {Name}"?)
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good |
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 16:37:25 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 12:59 AM 12/10/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> Rat's comments should be seen as exactly that, his. He has his
>own (very strong) predjudices. One of them is a dislike for Long and
>everything he writes, no matter how useful and good. Take with a (large)
>grain of salt.
And by the same token, can I dismiss your opinions just by "warning"
everyone that you have some very strong prejudices FOR Mr. Long? *Anyone's*
opinions should be seen as "exactly that". Nobody on this list is putting a
gun to the readers' head and trying to force a style of play.
Rat happens to be one of the more intelligent people on the list -- I end up
on the opposite side of the fence from him on almost all the big debates
here, but I'd still rather listen to him disagreeing with me than many
people taking my side.
If you disagree with him, that's fine -- just present your own opinions. and
maybe all of us here can learn something from them. But it's downright
asinine and unnecessarily inflammatory to make a big production number out
of letting everyone know what a dangerous influence he apparently is,
pronouncing in great authoritarian tones how the poor fool managed to escape
his chains again and post some madness before being caught and returned to
his cell. :/
> By the same token, of course, Rat means to say that all Martial
>maneuvers are just plain stupid. Buy combat skill levels and just be
>happy.
Or, he could just mean that unlike hand-to-hand combat, real-life ranged
weapon "martial arts" simply do NOT break down into a maneuver-by-maneuver
basis, and are therefore better represented by a single-skill approach such
as combat levels.
>> As for content... TUMA adds a bunch of unnecessary maneuvers -- they
>> duplicate the effects of existing maneuvers combined with a few combat
>> skill levels.
>
> That's what all maneuvers are anyway. There is just a large
>pre-made list to allow for different flavor.
Okay, this I agree with -- expanding the maneuver list is not a problem.
What I did have a problem with is S.L. telling his readers not to *design*
martial arts with maneuvers (such as Fast Strike and Martial Strike) that
can be made to match each other with a couple combat levels, and further
points out that this "problem" most often shows up when trying to model
real-life combat styles. (Yeah, God forbid we should do something to match
real life when it impedes point efficiency.)
>> Many of Long's power writeups range from questionable to outright
>> broken.
>
> Add the unspoken, "becuase that is not how I might do that power"
>that must be added to all of Rat's interpretations of rules. Actually,
>they are built well and take some different approaches to usually obscure
>power construction areas.
AFAIK, Rat would not do that power because Rat is a HERO fundamentalist,
i.e. he has actually read the rulebook and made an attempt to comprehend it.
Long, it too often seems, has not. In this case, it didn't seem like much
of a problem to me -- since the bulk of the UMA is cribbed from Ninja HERO,
you won't find too much out of line. (For the REALLY munchkinoid
constructions, one should check out -The Ultimate Mentalist- -- worth the
money for the laugh value alone).
P.S. Honest question, Tim -- this is not meant as a jibe or anything, I'm
sincerely curious. Did you ever see a rules interpretation/alteration
printed that you DIDN'T approve of?
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good |
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:39:14 -0800
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On Monday, December 08, 1997 10:04 PM, Rick Holding wrote:
<snip>
> That last part is not quite correct. The flash attack is linked to
the
>energy blast. For the flash to operate, the energy blast must be
fired. But if
>you fire the energy blast, you do not have to activate the flash.
The energy
>blast is not limited. The flash attack is.
>
There is _NO_ official ruling on this point. Officially, you can do it
either way, and both are acceptable- it is strictly GM ruling. It
shouldn't be, but it is.
If that is the position you want to take, fine, but please don't claim
yours is the "correct" way. There is no "correct" way.
And that _is_ official.
Filksinger
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 09 Dec 1997 17:48:09 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "AJ" == Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> writes:
AJ> Charges, particularly continuing charges. Gives zero end and
AJ> uncontrolled for free.
Point. And I can show you exactly where Charges specifically states that
it gives you these things for "free". Just as an aside, continuous and
uncontrolled on charges is not free: you have to pay for Continuous if the
power is not already constant, and the uncontrolled aspect "costs" a lesser
bonus. Furthermore, in the 4th edition it quickly becomes more "efficient"
to use Zero END instead of charges; a fluke from the Reduced/Zero END cost
structure change.
If a skill, talent, power or power modifier does not specifically state
that it has a particular mechanical effect, it does not do it. Two
examples: the aforementioned Charges specifically giving "Zero END Cost"
for free, and Dispell specifically stating that one may abort to use it.
Nowhere does "Linked" state that it provides any specific advantages to
powers.
AJ> Universal Foci. Gives 'usable by others' for free.
Almost... it ties back to having to pay for anything that you frequently
use. If you frequently loan your Focused powers out to your allies, those
to whom you loan should purchase the powers for themselves.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get
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\ head.
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:48:54 -0800
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On Monday, December 08, 1997 11:13 PM, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
<snip>
>
> Actually, both attacks *are* limited, you are only allowed the
>disad on the one, however, for balance reasons. That's part of the
>disadvantage, you get points for the smaller, but both are affected.
>
Again, there is no official ruling. You are both right.
Filksinger
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:51:07 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Greetings
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On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
> << But that's all spilt milk. Now that you're here, I expect regular
> commentary. :)
> As long as it's not all buy my stuff spam. :) >>
>
> Not all of it will be, no. ;)
At least tell us why it's stuff we have to buy. And be honest!
> << However, the newsgroup is not product specific, AOL and Compuserv are
> limited
> forums, as is WebRPG and #herochat (DALnet IRC). This group is pretty large,
> dedicated, active, and open to anyone with email. >>
>
> Understood. One quick question... is there a DIGEST version of this thing?
> My e-mail has doubled in the last day! <LOL> And that's saying something!
Get used to that.
> << Uh-oh. TSR meets WoTC meets Hero. My fifth Level Malkavelian Brick Punches
> your 6th level AC 6 Egoist for 5 successes? :) Or collectable Champions Card
> Game? :) >>
>
> None of the above. I don't know about you guys, by feeling is that more
> Hero-sympathetic people in WotC is a *good* thing. Shadis has already run an
> article for AD&D. I would say that times are changing, and for the better. Who
> knows. Perhaps AD&D --> Fuzion --> Hero System conversions are coming down the
> pike? No secret info, just speculation.
With the aquisition of TSR, WOTC is a financial monster. Still doesn't
mean I have to buy their cards or consider Shadis to be the last word on
gaming. OTOH, good, non-biased exposure for the best universal system on
the market is cool by me.
> << BTW, who in their right mind would hire Steve P. to sell / market anything?
> Considering Hero's great success in the market. :) >>
>
> That's a pretty cheap shot. For one thing, ICE was in charge of advertising
> and marketing the Hero products, not Hero. I guess you could say the same
> thing about us, then.
What I don't like is Steve P's constant waffling on some subjects, as well
as the way he introduced Fuzion to the HML.
> << Uh-Oh. See my above comments about WoTC/TSR. Can we add Fuzion into
> thatequation as well? :) >>
>
> Absolutely not. We will be posted Fuzion stats for characters to our web
> site, but the 4th Ed. books will remain just that -- 4th Ed. books.
Cool by me. Oh, and waht was that about a '5th edition'?
***************************************************************************
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Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:55:06 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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> TRG> Rat, Rat, Rat. What are we going to do with you. What Rat has
> TRG> forgotten to mention is that in certain circumstances in the Hero
> TRG> rules, disadvantages *do* grant abilities not previously held by the
> TRG> powers. They just are more disadvantageous than they are
> TRG> advantageous. Simple.
>
> Show me one other than the (controversial) Linked (which I maintain is not
> an exception).
We've been through this before. Charges provides 0 END and
Universal Focus provides UBO.
-Tim Gilberg
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:59:46 -0800
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On Tuesday, December 09, 1997 7:16 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
<snip>
> Personally, I'm in the camp that says two Linked Powers must
always be
>used together. If you could the larger one separately (goes my
logic),
>then how would one Limit the Powers so that you couldn't? You can't
buy
>Linked on the larger Power (it says so right there under Linked).
I have a .pdf file on my machine somewhere that is supposed to be a
Champions cheat sheet. It includes all the advantages and
disadvantages in the BBB, and under Linked it gives _both_ versions.
For a -1/4, only the smaller power is limited, and for a -1/2, both
are.
Frankly, something like that may be the best solution. Certainly,
without it you have one of two things undoable. With this idea, you
can do both.
Filksinger
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Hanging Onto the Edge
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:06:00 -0800
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On Tuesday, December 09, 1997 7:08 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
<snip>
>> What about the <possible urban myth> piece of straw driven through
walls
>>during a cyclone (hurricane for you northern types) with no damage.
Maybe
>its a
>>little none effect of really high speeds giving immense amounts of
extra PD.
>
> That's fine for a piece of straw going through a wall or (in the
>rendition I've heard) sheet of regular paper chopping down a tree.
The
>front end of a car is somewhat blunter than that.
The straw is correct, the paper isn't. However, the hurricane is
incorrect, it is a tornado. Hurricanes don't have the focused power
needed.
However, the straw isn't made stronger. Take a good, stiff piece of
straw. Carefully slam it into the side of a tree _straight_ in. There
is a small but distinct possibility that it will stick.
Filksinger
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:18:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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Stainless Steel Rat writes:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> >>>>> "AJ" == Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> writes:
>
> AJ> Charges, particularly continuing charges. Gives zero end and
> AJ> uncontrolled for free.
>
> Point. And I can show you exactly where Charges specifically states that
> it gives you these things for "free". Just as an aside, continuous and
> uncontrolled on charges is not free: you have to pay for Continuous if the
> power is not already constant, and the uncontrolled aspect "costs" a lesser
> bonus. Furthermore, in the 4th edition it quickly becomes more "efficient"
> to use Zero END instead of charges; a fluke from the Reduced/Zero END cost
> structure change.
Hm..clearly you haven't had such munchkin stunts as '1 recoverable 1-minute
continuing charge of force-field' (or 4 clips instead of recoverable); net -1/2
limitation, and _so_ much more useful than a standard force field most of the
time. In any case, the point wasn't that Charges was vague (it isn't), its
that it demonstrates that disadvantages _can_ give advantages.
>
> If a skill, talent, power or power modifier does not specifically state
> that it has a particular mechanical effect, it does not do it. Two
> examples: the aforementioned Charges specifically giving "Zero END Cost"
> for free, and Dispell specifically stating that one may abort to use it.
Hm...does it say anything about abort? I thought all it said was that you
could use it against an incoming attack.
>
> Nowhere does "Linked" state that it provides any specific advantages to
> powers.
So? Actually, I believe it does have the word 'allows' in it, but I'd need to
check the text to be sure.
>
> AJ> Universal Foci. Gives 'usable by others' for free.
>
> Almost... it ties back to having to pay for anything that you frequently
> use. If you frequently loan your Focused powers out to your allies, those
> to whom you loan should purchase the powers for themselves.
If I had a player frequently 'loaning out' powers with UBO I'd be tempted to
make the other players purchase some ability (or just thwack the offending
player). Even if you only lend out your pistol once in a hundred sessions,
that's once more than you can lend out your non-focused energy blast, and
therefore your focus clearly has an advantage the energy blast does not have.
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From: "Todd Hanson" <badtodd@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: The Tick
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 17:48:38 CST
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Jerry Said:
>>"It's Thrakazog!"
>>"Box of frogs?"
>>
>"Four yacks and a dog?"
>"Sapsucker frog?"
>"Susan?"
Well, NOW you're just doing it on purpose.
And, to bring this back to Champs - this past weekend I got a chance to
game with some old friends. One of the players always tries to sneak a
'silly' character into the game - no matter how serious the genre is.
After having his latest masterpiece ('Cow Man') rejected by 3 different
game masters, he finally convinced one GM to run a 'Tick style' game. I
wouldn't want to do this on a regular basis, but for a one time thing,
it was a hell of alot of fun.
The cast:
Cow Man - strange visitor from another pasture! Master of the
Moooooove Through, watched by Farmer Joe, suffered from
'herd mentality'.
Frog Man - (and his side kick Tadpole). Batman wanna-be in his
fabulous frog suit. Master of tongue-fu (he had a 5"
stretching tongue), sponsored by Budweiser - had his
own VPP of 'beer powers' (shake up a can of beer and spray
it in the villian's face for a flash, fashioned empty
cans into ice skates, etc). Spent the rest of the night
pouting when the GM wouldn't let him restore his drained
dex by drinking a 'refreshing can of beer'.
Capt Flatulance - had a variety of 'stink cloud' NND's (defense: no
breathing, or stinking worse than the fart), had a 'flame
jet' attack that required gestures and a bic lighter.
required a high fiber diet and took damage from 'Beano'.
always accompanied his powers with the appropriate sound
effects (you would have thought we were 11 years old)
Spider-Guy - a 'Tick World' version of Spiderman (the player didnt
seem real into this style of game). Had alot of useless
web powers and a danger sense that only warned him of
non-dangerous things.
There were a variety of goofy villians (The Bleeding Heart, some goofy
Magic playing nerd, a spinning top.. ) and alot of senseless combat and
silly roleplaying that ultimately lead us to the arch-villian who was
out to control the world... Barney! (I love you.. you serve me.. )
Todd
______________________________________________________
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X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 18:50:18 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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At 02:59 PM 12/9/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>On Tuesday, December 09, 1997 7:16 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
><snip>
>> Personally, I'm in the camp that says two Linked Powers must
>always be
>>used together. If you could the larger one separately (goes my
>logic),
>>then how would one Limit the Powers so that you couldn't? You can't
>buy
>>Linked on the larger Power (it says so right there under Linked).
>
>I have a .pdf file on my machine somewhere that is supposed to be a
>Champions cheat sheet. It includes all the advantages and
>disadvantages in the BBB, and under Linked it gives _both_ versions.
>For a -1/4, only the smaller power is limited, and for a -1/2, both
>are.
>
>Frankly, something like that may be the best solution. Certainly,
>without it you have one of two things undoable. With this idea, you
>can do both.
>
Wow. Cool, that's what I came up with, too. A -1/4 "Can only be used with
X" Limitation. I'm with Bob on the interpretation he gave... I (of
course) can't say it's officially correct, but that's what I got from
reading it. Also, I got that impression from GURPS Supers, too, and I
assume they lifted Linked from Hero.
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 18:56:47 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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At 03:18 PM 12/9/97 -0800, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Stainless Steel Rat writes:
>> >>>>> "AJ" == Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> writes:
>>
>> AJ> Charges, particularly continuing charges. Gives zero end and
>> AJ> uncontrolled for free.
>>
>> Point. And I can show you exactly where Charges specifically states that
>> it gives you these things for "free". Just as an aside, continuous and
>> uncontrolled on charges is not free: you have to pay for Continuous if the
>> power is not already constant, and the uncontrolled aspect "costs" a lesser
>> bonus. Furthermore, in the 4th edition it quickly becomes more "efficient"
>> to use Zero END instead of charges; a fluke from the Reduced/Zero END cost
>> structure change.
>
>Hm..clearly you haven't had such munchkin stunts as '1 recoverable 1-minute
>continuing charge of force-field' (or 4 clips instead of recoverable); net
-1/2
>limitation, and _so_ much more useful than a standard force field most of the
>time. In any case, the point wasn't that Charges was vague (it isn't), its
>that it demonstrates that disadvantages _can_ give advantages.
>
So, this means the Force Field won't go down unless it runs out of time,
right? So, he's bleeding to death (-BODY) and his teammates can't use
Paramedic on him? Sounds like a Limitation to me...
But this might just go back to looking carefully at the players'
characters' abilities.
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 19:01:12 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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At 03:30 PM 12/9/97 +0000, Rook wrote:
>> > This whole discussion is MOOT.
>> >
>> > I can simply use "limited" to design a custom version of linked that
works
>> > however I desire for the given character at hand.
>>
>> Hmmm. Actually, I believe that using one limitation to simulate
>> another would be verboten in Hero terms.
>
> 'verboten'?
Strictly forbidden. Yeah, I had to look it up to be sure, too, but I was
right.
>Well, I can use limited to design any limitation I desire. So I could just
>design a limitation that reads:
> "Power X can only be used when power Y is in use", then assign that
>limitation to power X.
>
> Or for the other side of the camp, I make a limitation that says:
>
> "Powers X and Y can only be used in combination".
>
>Nothing illegal there. The only argument now is what are they worth?
>-1/4, -1/2, or -3/4.
> And that's a GM call. Personally, in my games the first one
>would be a -1/2 on power X. The second would be a -1/2 on the less
>expensive of the two powers.
>
In which case, I (if in your games) would take the first on both Powers,
since I save more points, and it does the same as the second. Exactly the
same.
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 19:21:07 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: The Tick
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Todd wrote:
>Jerry Said:
>
>>>"It's Thrakazog!"
>>>"Box of frogs?"
>>>
>>"Four yacks and a dog?"
>>"Sapsucker frog?"
>>"Susan?"
>
>Well, NOW you're just doing it on purpose.
>
Thank you, Tick. Or should I say... Tock? Tack? Tuck?
I had faith someone would get that.
<wonderful Tick game stuff deleted for space constraints>
The last campaign I started up was over the summer, for when I wasn't at
school. It wasn't until after I had already decided what I wanted to do
did some of the players ask about a "Tick" style game... I said no, but it
still had comical aspects.
The Lamp - Light-based hero who has the Psych Lim: *under*confidence, and
Afraid of the Dark. He's a practical joker, so we get a lot of weird light
based Images...
Ice Cream Girl - I had to try hard to get her to change her appearance from
an Uncle Creamy clone into just a babe. But the name stuck, because she
liked it.
The Amp - my fault, really. I came up with him while on my computer at
3am. He's the Lamp's archvillain, and we had a good moment when Lamp and
Sentinel (a too serious character *and* player) met The Amp (don't leave
off the "The"). Sentinel was wounded and the Lamp grabbed him and ran. As
they left, The Amp called after them, "I'll get you Lamp, and your
sidekick, too!"
Still gets a laugh out of everyone.
- Jerry
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 16:35:44 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings
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At 05:06 PM 12/9/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< I took a quick look at the download. I didn't see anything to make me gag
>right off. >>
>
> I guess that's a good thing.
Something just occurred to me: Maybe you could sneak that quote into
some of your advertising, and see who notices.
Naah.
><< Hope the quality is as good as the two Heroic Adventures. >>
>
> Actually, no. It's going to be much, much better quality.
>
><< I've used a good number of those already. The bad guy in the Knightsabers
>plot (the guy running the experiments) has joined Genocide here. 8). >>
>
> Glad to hear it! I'm sure Greg will appreciate knowing his creations are
>being put to use. ;) I really liked "Virtual Ice" in HA1. Very cool concept,
>IMO. And the toilet illo... who else but GRG could get away with an illo of a
>hero drinking from a toilet! <LOL> (You have to read the adventure to
>understand what's really going on).
Just so you know what kind of variety you have here, I'm planning on
using the San Angelo setting as a parallel universe in my own campaign,
which is set in the Champions Universe. "Virtual Ice" looks like a good
scenario to run my PCs through as a second adventure; I'm just scoping out
a good hook scenario to introduce the dimension.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 16:39:19 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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At 02:39 PM 12/9/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>There is _NO_ official ruling on this point. Officially, you can do it
>either way, and both are acceptable- it is strictly GM ruling. It
>shouldn't be, but it is.
Actually, there is an official ruling, and that is just what you said:
do it either way, until Steve P. makes up his mind.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
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Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 17:23:50 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Regenerating limbs
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-- Robert A. West wrote:
><<snip>>
> IMHO, no, on multiple grounds. First, I don't see why a person minus an
> arm should be any easier to kill than a normal person. If you blow off
> my arm, I will likely go into shock and die, but if I survive, the
> overall system integrity that keeps me alive will be fairly unimpaired.
> Second, on game balance grounds, should a character lose a limb, I would
> not want to impose the double penalty of losing BODY points as well.
> Third, all the hit location mechanisms (BODYx, Impairing, Disabling)
> on pp. 163-5 are based on the affected area's taking a portion of the
> character's *total* BODY, not of an assigned fraction as in Runequest and
> similar systems. IMHO, there is an attempt being made to distinguish
> between "sectional" BODY and "systemic" BODY. Fourth, although disabling
> wounds to the chest and head list permanent CHAR losses as an effect,
> none are listed for limbs.
Valid points, all of them. But under the limb section of the disabling
write up, it does mention lose of affected limbs. GM's discretion. Just as it
could be GM's discretion as to the other game effects of the lose of the limb.
>
> Thus, I would hold that a Drain BODY cannot be used for this purpose.
> Drain Movement might have an SFX of injuring a leg, but severing the
> limb is not generally a reasonable special effect, unless regrowing limbs
> is an everyman power.
Why not? In a world where powers are defined by special effects, why
can't a body drain be represented by eventual lose of limbs? What about a
vorpal blade? It does normal damage and on an 8- activation (5-, whatever) the
target suffers 1-2D6 body drain, recovery time shifted into the far future.
>
> > > Since humans do not, in most campaigns, routinely regrow limbs . . .
> >
> > Humans do not, in most campaigns, regernerate limbs because nobody
> > looses them! Okay, broad statement, I'll admit. But I certainly have not
> > seen anybody lose a limb in the 10+ years that I have been playing.
>
> You have never seen an amputee as an NPC? Never seen a PC take amputee
> as a Physical Limitation? Never had a touching scene visiting a victim
> of the MultiBomber who lost a hand, eye or fingers?
Perhaps the group I am with don't go into that detail. And yes, some of
us have had DNPC's who have missing limbs. That was not what I was trying to
talk about.
> Do these people
> regrow their limbs from ordinary healing? Assuming that the same healing
> rules apply, in principle, to NPCs as to PCs, I think that my statement
> is fair and true.
Granted, normal people do not regrow limbs. But take Wolverine as an
example. He has regeneration (and scads of it). Before he got reinforced
bones, he lost plenty of body mass which regen replaced. NORMAL people don't
have regeneration!! They have normal healing.
>
> As for my point about Transform being the "only way under standard rules"
> to represent limb loss, I should have clarified that statement as
> "standard Superhero rules," since I believe that Disabling is an option
> not normally recommended for Superhero campaigns, except as a way to get
> the agents out of the way faster.
Again, granted. The impairing and disabling rules are recommended for
heroes, not supers. But this does not mean it can't be used. Gestures and
Incantations are also recommended for heroes. But it doesn't stop people taking
them as disads.
On a side issue, (and please don't think this is a shot at you), many
people on this list seem to prefer the use of transform as a catch-all power.
Has this been caused by some discussion or convention from earlier in Champions?
It seems to me that when some other power can have an effect, the response is
"You can't do that because of <xxx>. You should use transform instead." Is
there something I am missing about transform in relation to all other powers?
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 17:32:08 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Locks
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-- Bob Greenwade wrote:
> I encourage this line of conversation. Please -- virtually every post
> here is adding something to TUSV!
> Say, does anyone know offhand what the standard locations are for the
> VIN? I know there's one on the dashboard, and I think there's one on the
> engine block...
Australian vehicles tend to have a compliance plate stuck to the front
of the fire wall in the engine bay. It contains date of manufacturer, engine
number, body number, and a couple of other stats.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 17:41:34 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Hanging Onto the Edge
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
<<snipped>>
> You are certainly correct here. The minimum of DEF+BODY of the
> building, the DEF+BODY of the vehicle, and 320d6 (or, by the Champions II
> table, 23d6). My mistake.
What about the <possible urban myth> piece of straw driven through walls
during a cyclone (hurricane for you northern types) with no damage. Maybe its a
little none effect of really high speeds giving immense amounts of extra PD.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 17:49:05 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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-- Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
<<snipped>>
> Well, actually it is done with only *one* attack action. However,
> notice that for the same number of Active Points, you could do either an
> 18d6 EB or a 9d6 flash, either one of which is more effective than the
> above. Remember that upper damage classes are usually more effective than
> the lower ones as defenses only go so high. (With real points, the above
> work out to a 16d6 eb or an 8d6 Flash, still much more effective.)
> Linked is a disad because you are permenantly linking two powers --
> niether can be used alone and you lose overall effectiveness of the
> powers.
That last part is not quite correct. The flash attack is linked to the
energy blast. For the flash to operate, the energy blast must be fired. But if
you fire the energy blast, you do not have to activate the flash. The energy
blast is not limited. The flash attack is.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 20:51:05 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: The Tick
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>Frog Man - (and his side kick Tadpole). Batman wanna-be in his
> fabulous frog suit. Master of tongue-fu (he had a 5"
> stretching tongue),
I'll bet he was popular with the girls...*^_^*
One idea I've toyed with is Rubber-Band Man. His primary powers would
involve: Hand Attack with Gestures (stretch one arm with the other, then let
go, <fwap!>), Extra Superleap with Concentration and Extra Time (Grab
lamppost, step backwards until your arms are really stretched, and let go
<fwoing!>), plenty of extra STR for grabbing (only), and some Stretching
that was No Concious Control (i.e. he couldn't stretch to reach that
flagpole, but if he was hanging from the flagpole with somebody hanging on
to his legs, he'd stretch until he reached his limit or touched the ground).
Imagine someone with a very rubbery body but the inability to just 'extend'
at will. Maybe some shapeshifting to compact himself into tight spaces, too
(extra time, etc.).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Reply-To: <903047@ican.net>
From: "dflacks" <dflacks@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Greetings
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 21:07:26 -0500
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> Greetings, list lurkers and readers. I wanted to introduce myself
briefly. I
> am Mark Arsenault, head of Gold Rush Games. As we're getting geared up to
> release San Angelo: City of Heroes (the first paper supplement for
Champions
> 4th Ed in a loooong time) I thought I would get on this list and get some
> feedback from you folks.
>
> Specifically, I am wondering if anyone here downloaded the SA:CoH
preview
> chapters. If so, are there any comments? Or any questions of me regarding
this
> new product line?
>
> Mark @ GRG
Hello there Mark.
I downloaded SA:CoH and I liked it. I would, of course, have to change a
few things to make it fit my campaigns based up here in the great frozen
north (Canada). But then very few GMs ever use a 'Vanilla' supplement
straight out of the box. From what I read it looks like a well designed
and integrated whole, with enough flexability to let me modify it to fit
how I want my champaign to work.
I hope it will be available for electronic mail ordering, because I found
that a lot of stuff never makes it up here. For example, I had never even
heard of Heromaker software untill I got on the internet.
I have the goldrush games webpage on my netminder list, so I will be
checking out anything new as it happens.
BTW, Sorry to read about Tyson. That was a terrible thing to happen.
dflacks@ican.net
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 18:15:25 -0800
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Organization: McAfee
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>
> At 03:30 PM 12/9/97 +0000, Rook wrote:
> >> Hmmm. Actually, I believe that using one limitation to
> >> simulate another would be verboten in Hero terms.
> >
> > 'verboten'?
> Strictly forbidden. Yeah, I had to look it up to be sure, too, but
> I was right.
Didn't anybody watch Hogan's Heroes?
-Mark
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 21:24:12 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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Rook wrote:
>> >Well, I can use limited to design any limitation I desire. So I could just
>> >design a limitation that reads:
>> > "Power X can only be used when power Y is in use", then assign that
>> >limitation to power X.
>> >
>> > Or for the other side of the camp, I make a limitation that says:
>> >
>> > "Powers X and Y can only be used in combination".
>> >
>> >Nothing illegal there. The only argument now is what are they worth?
>> >-1/4, -1/2, or -3/4.
>> > And that's a GM call. Personally, in my games the first one
>> >would be a -1/2 on power X. The second would be a -1/2 on the less
>> >expensive of the two powers.
>> >
>> In which case, I (if in your games) would take the first on both Powers,
>> since I save more points, and it does the same as the second. Exactly the
>> same.
>>
> In which case as a GM I would simply remove it from the larger power.
>Or rule that since X has to be on to use Y, and Y has to be on to use X, you
>can't use either since neither can ever come on...
> Chicken or the Egg after all.
>
Yeah, that's what I was trying to point out. Of course, I probably
should've just came out and said it... : )
>HOWEVER. I do like what I'm hearing here from others about the first one
>being only a -1/4 lim. I'll have to think about why I listed it as a -1/2.
>
I do it with the -1/4. But I (probably*) wouldn't let a player take it on
two Powers. That's what Linked is for.
*I might do it, it's never come up, so I don't know. Thoughts?
- Jerry
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:32:06 +1000
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Subject: Re: GRG, San Angelino, and even Sengoku (was Re: Greetings)
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At 04:13 PM 12/9/97 +0000, Brian Wong wrote:
>> Funny. I get that reaction a lot. I can tell you that Kurt Busiek has seen
>> even given us a quote to use. San Angelo is certainly *not* an "Astro City
>> RPG," but probably as close as you will ever come to one.
>>
> Perhaps this tells you something.
>The fans (at least this one) want 4-color but realistic. Or rather "4-color
>Modern" as our local group has taken to calling it. A world where Heroes
>are Heroes. Where there is no rationale behind "Super-Powers", They just
>exist. Where heroes have morals, but are not perfect. They make mistakes but
>understand it when they do.
> I think current comic industry troubles have shown that the "Image"
>style of amoral T&A is doing more harm than good to the industry. Comics have
>lost the respect they achieved for a short while in the 80's.
>
I agree. We don't need the 'heros are unrealistic, lets
turn the token australian guy into a leatherclade twonk'
mentality. . .the emphasis of the game should be in the hands
of the gm, it's for him/her to decide wether s/he wants to go for
'combat' or 'satire' or 'heros aren't' as a general theme. .
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:36:39 +1000
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At 04:47 PM 12/9/97 +0000, Brian Wong wrote:
>3. With the 'scientific' origin of powers, what kinds of origins are
> going to be 'out'? No magic, faerie realm, undead, psycho-activated
> (I think I am, therefore reality for me became that way), alien,
> X-dimensional, destiny, demi-god, etc type origins? I imagine it's
> too late, but I personally prefer worlds that leave the nature of
> Super Powers as vague and unknown. Leaving the field open to all the
> genre's full absurdity.
>
I think that's a staple of the genre- i wouldn't say 'absurd', i'd say
'multi-gneric'. It's no more absurd than a dark future with an extensive
net-economy (encouraging freelance work) AND mega-powerful corps
(which are arguably obselete in such a world)
>
From: "Case" <wmpc@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: How do I buy these abilites??
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 21:37:59 -0500
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Problem (a):
'Aperion Negative' is a character I created who has the ability to
travel along electrical current. While in this energy form, he can (a) use
all of his electronic-based skills, like computer programming (like being in
cyberspace), security systems, etc (b) travel FTL, (c) he can even 'jump'
into a focus if someone hits him with an energy beam or flash. When you
think about it, this is an incredibly powerful ability! But I really think
I botched on how I bought the ability- I bought FTL with the -3/4 limitation
"only on energy currents". Anybody have any ideas how I can make him truly
'street legal'? What's he missing? Shrinking?
(b) If humans run at 6 hexes per phase in Champions, and real humans run
18-22mph (is that right anybody?), how many hexes do gazelle run if they run
35 mph?
Thanks,
-Case
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:59:39 +1000
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>At 04:13 PM 12/9/97 +0000, Brian Wong wrote:
>>> Funny. I get that reaction a lot. I can tell you that Kurt Busiek has seen
>>> even given us a quote to use. San Angelo is certainly *not* an "Astro City
>>> RPG," but probably as close as you will ever come to one.
>>>
>> Perhaps this tells you something.
>>The fans (at least this one) want 4-color but realistic. Or rather "4-color
>>Modern" as our local group has taken to calling it. A world where Heroes
>>are Heroes. Where there is no rationale behind "Super-Powers", They just
>>exist. Where heroes have morals, but are not perfect. They make mistakes but
>>understand it when they do.
>> I think current comic industry troubles have shown that the "Image"
>>style of amoral T&A is doing more harm than good to the industry. Comics have
>>lost the respect they achieved for a short while in the 80's.
>>
>
>I agree. We don't need the 'heros are unrealistic, lets
>turn the token australian guy into a leatherclade twonk'
>mentality. . .the emphasis of the game should be in the hands
>of the gm, it's for him/her to decide wether s/he wants to go for
>'combat' or 'satire' or 'heros aren't' as a general theme. .
>
>
>
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 19:01:20 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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At 06:15 PM 12/9/97 -0800, Mark Lemming wrote:
>Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>>
>> At 03:30 PM 12/9/97 +0000, Rook wrote:
>> >> Hmmm. Actually, I believe that using one limitation to
>> >> simulate another would be verboten in Hero terms.
>> >
>> > 'verboten'?
>> Strictly forbidden. Yeah, I had to look it up to be sure, too, but
>> I was right.
>
>Didn't anybody watch Hogan's Heroes?
I did.
My childhood was largely filled with televised images: Hogan's Heroes,
Batman, the Monkees, Get Smart!, Bullwinkle, George of the Jungle, etc.
Which will probably explain a lot to most long-timers on the list.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
X-Sender: jrc@pop1.nai.net
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:01:39 -0500
From: "Joe Claffey Jr." <jrc@mail1.nai.net>
Subject: Re: The Court Jester (was Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1)
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Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> wrote,
>Actually, I heard in an interview with Danny Kaye that the fight WAS
>choreographed. But Rathbone couldn't quite get the hang of the scene, so
>a stand-in did his fighting. If you'll look closely, there are a LOT of
>parts of the swordfight where Rathbone's back is all we see.
Odd, Rathbone was supposedly the best fencer in Hollywood at the time. The
fencing scenes were (according to rumor) put in the Sherlock Holmes movies
so he could win some! (He frequently played the villain.)
Joe Claffey | "In the end, everything is a gag."
jrc@ct1.nai.net | - Charlie Chaplin
From: Egyptoid <Egyptoid@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:27:53 EST
Subject: Heromaker Collections
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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I've heard of disks of collected characters being for sale.
Anybody tell me where that would be?
Thanks in advance.
--
Ell-Man
From: Egyptoid <Egyptoid@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:28:00 EST
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Re: Any Published Champions Speedsters?
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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In a message dated 12/9/97 11:14:40 AM, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
>>What, you mean the second ever australian champions character? *l*
Seeker, Cptn.Aussie 1, Cptn.Aussie 2, Entropi, etc. etc.
From: Egyptoid <Egyptoid@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:28:02 EST
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Re: Champions Adventures- Breaking up the monotony...
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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In a message dated 12/9/97 12:42:58 PM, bastet@iquest.net wrote:
>Sounds like it.:) I've kept considering doing a villain game sometime,
>but I doubt my group would be into it. Even when I run gray morality
>games right now, they play heros.:)
>TokyoMark
You're lucky. I've got six players:
2 hack & slay like D&D
2 try for the biggest pepr bodycount (jail or morgue, they don't care)
2 sleep through, except when they're geeking the rules.
If I ran a villain game there'd be no stopping their juggernaut.
From: Egyptoid <Egyptoid@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:28:05 EST
Subject: Re: Re: Help!!!
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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In a message dated 12/9/97 5:00:24 AM, tbarrie@ibm.net wrote:
>> BTW: Rafael, if you have web access (or even access to Lynx)
> Bit of an odd phrase, that. If he has access to Lynx, then by
> definitihe has web access.
But you might be surprised how many people can't conceive of
the web without graphics, and to them lynx is another animal
entirely.
almost got phoenix re-worked.....
--
Ell-Man
From: Michael Sprague <msprague@eznet.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 20:20:15 -0800
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Yes!!! I'm back again, if anyone missed me. :-) My ISP went bankrupt,
and it took a little time to get a new one.
I avoided that last two "great linked debates" because I had argued myself
out on the subject long ago :-) .... that and the fact that for the most
part, it really doesn't matter how you play it, the differences are a lot
more minimal than some people think. Hopefully, this will not turn into
another great linked debate, because this subject has gotten far more
discussion that it really deserves!!
>>> Another example is I could have a 12d6 photon blast, and link a 3d6
flash
>>> to it as well. Now we have a 12d6 EB along with a 3d6 flash (even
though it
>>> does require another hit roll) that can be done all in one phase.
>>
>> Well, actually it is done with only *one* attack action.
However,
>> notice that for the same number of Active Points, you could do either an
>> 18d6 EB or a 9d6 flash, either one of which is more effective than the
>> above. Remember that upper damage classes are usually more effective
than
>> the lower ones as defenses only go so high. (With real points, the
above
>> work out to a 16d6 eb or an 8d6 Flash, still much more effective.)
>> Linked is a disad because you are permenantly linking two powers --
>> niether can be used alone and you lose overall effectiveness of the
>> powers.
>
> That last part is not quite correct. The flash attack is linked to the
> energy blast. For the flash to operate, the energy blast must be fired.
But if
> you fire the energy blast, you do not have to activate the flash. The
energy
> blast is not limited. The flash attack is.
I agree totally with this statement. The Limitation is only on the Flash,
not the EB. But ....
It really doesn't matter whether you play this the other way around or not.
This is mostly a "points thingy" that makes the smaller Power cheaper.
When using this Power/Linked Power, _I_, the player choose the Power Level
I want to use (assuming I didn't add a Limitation like "Beam Attack").
What this means is that I could fire off an attack that does 12d6 EB/3d6
Flash, one that does 12d6 EB/0d6 Flash, or 1d6 EB/3d6 Flash (maybe even 0d6
EB/3d6 Flash, so long as 1 END is spent for the EB when using the Powers).
> The link is a 1/2 disadvantage, but is it really?
Keep in mind that many of us play Powers such that two powers can be fired
off at the same time, so long as only one attack roll is made, and defenses
apply seperatly vs. the two Powers (Unfortunately, there is nothing in the
rules that specifically say you can or can't do this). Thus, Linked is a
Limitation in that context. Mind you, I firmly believe the rules do allow
combining Powers ... but it _really_doesn't_ matter because semantics and
all the silly "proofs" aside, I can take almost any SFX and make it work
whether you allow two powers to be used together, insist that they must be
linked to do so, or insist that both Powers be Linked and both must always
be used together.
The main difference is that if you insist the two Powers must be Linked,
then I must always used the Larger Power at least it's minimum increment
(or pay at least 1 END on it, depending on how you would play it) and over
all, _and_ it will usually cost me less points for my attack.
The exception I can think of would be for something like where all my
Powers were Photonic in nature, and I wanted a Flash attached to all my
attack Powers. Being able to combine Powers would mean I would only need
to buy one Flash, rather than lots of redundant ones, each Linked to a
different Power. If you allowed me to Link a Power to a Multi-Power
Framework (I don't think I would allow that) then I could even get around
that exception.
So, I really can't get very emotional on this subject anymore, because it
really doesn't matter how you play it. It's a Rules Lawyer issue, and has
little effect on actual Character Design and Play.
~ Mike
P.S. The Rules Lawyer in me agrees 100% with Rat on this issue. The
Player in me doesn't care squat!!
From: Michael Sprague <msprague@eznet.net>
Subject: RE: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 20:28:45 -0800
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> Well, I can use limited to design any limitation I desire. So I could
just
> design a limitation that reads:
> "Power X can only be used when power Y is in use", then assign that
> limitation to power X.
>
> Or for the other side of the camp, I make a limitation that says:
>
> "Powers X and Y can only be used in combination".
>
> Nothing illegal there. The only argument now is what are they worth?
> -1/4, -1/2, or -3/4.
> And that's a GM call. Personally, in my games the first one
> would be a -1/2 on power X. The second would be a -1/2 on the less
> expensive of the two powers.
And, how about a Limitation saying Power J can only be used with Powers X,
Y and Z. As a house rule, I made this a -1/4 version of Linked in my
campaign.
~ Mike
Reply-To: "Jeff Tolle" <Trigon@msn.com>
From: "Jeff Tolle" <trigon@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures- Breaking up the monotony...
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:30:21 -0500
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-----Original Message-----
From: Case <wmpc@ix.netcom.com>
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Sunday, December 07, 1997 6:13 PM
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures- Breaking up the monotony...
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
>To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org>
>Date: Sunday, December 07, 1997 10:51 AM
>Subject: Re: Champions Adventures
>
> (e) A great adventure I'm working on for the Summer of '98- a *long*
>overdue spoof of Vampire:The Masquerade et al. You play rednecks chasing
>after some 'lunatics' who just "gone sucked da blood out ma sons prize
>HAWG! Gawd dammit- lets go show 'em some old fashioned Southern JUSTICE!
>YEEE HAW!"
I think I was just insulted! Keep that up, and we'll make you squeal like a
pig!!!
Jeff Tolle
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 23:32:13 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
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I have just acquired a copy of Ninja Hero, and I was wondering what the
major differences between it and TUMA are. Mostly, is TUMA worth getting
if I have NH? (I suspect it is.) How much of a rewrite am I going to have
to do to the characters that I am rewriting now?
And did anyone see any major problems in NH that they fixed (either house
rules, or changes made in TUMA)?
Thanks,
Jerry
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:59:42 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Greetings
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> We haven't published a 4th Ed. product since last August (Heroic Adventures
> Vol. 2), and sales of that were not too great. But I fully expect San Angelo
> to change that trend. But as I said earlier, I'm here now. bend my ear. ;)
Speaking personally, I didn't really like the look of the two
Heroic Adventures products. There were some interesting scenarios and
characters, but it seemed to suffer a lack of polish.
San Angelo, howeever, I saw a playtest version of at GenCon. Very
impressive looking. I trust the packaging will be as strong.
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:06:38 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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> 'verboten'?
> Well, I can use limited to design any limitation I desire. So I could just
> design a limitation that reads:
Sure you could. However, if that limitation does what another one
already does, you should use the original. (Official rules of course,
sometimes I wonder whether Linked should just be dropped.)
> Nothing illegal there. The only argument now is what are they worth?
> -1/4, -1/2, or -3/4.
> And that's a GM call. Personally, in my games the first one
> would be a -1/2 on power X. The second would be a -1/2 on the less
> expensive of the two powers.
Hmmm. Well, one thing to think about. If I were to drop or
modify Linked, I would specify that Lining Non-Attack powers is much more
limiting than linking Attack Powers.
-Tim Gilberg
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
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>>>>> "AJ" == Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> writes:
AJ> Hm..clearly you haven't had such munchkin stunts as '1 recoverable
AJ> 1-minute continuing charge of force-field'
No, I haven't. My GMs have generally been of the breed that says "no" to
things like that.
AJ> (or 4 clips instead of recoverable); net -1/2 limitation, and _so_ much
AJ> more useful than a standard force field most of the time. In any case,
AJ> the point wasn't that Charges was vague (it isn't), its that it
AJ> demonstrates that disadvantages _can_ give advantages.
And in the case of the very few limitations that do, they do so because
they always have done so. Even though they had the chance to fix such
problems, Hero Games decided to stick with the status quo. Thus we have
seemingly weird costs for things like Strength, Armor vs. Force Field, and
Charges vs. Reduced Endurance.
[...]
AJ> Hm...does it say anything about abort? I thought all it said was that
AJ> you could use it against an incoming attack.
My mistake. Dispell requires a saved action to use against an incoming
attack. It is still the only power that may be used offensively against an
attack.
>> Nowhere does "Linked" state that it provides any specific advantages to
>> powers.
AJ> So? Actually, I believe it does have the word 'allows' in it, but I'd
AJ> need to check the text to be sure.
Apparantly a common misconception: Linked *requires* the use of a power
with another power, but the description never says anything about
"allowing one power to be used with another". It is a limitation because
the limited power cannot be used alone.
I will cut myself short, with a couple of rhetorical questions. Charges
specifically states that it provides the Zero Endurance advantage as a
freebie. Linked came about at least one edition after Charges. So, why
does Linked not mention this "Linkable" advantage? If "Linkable" is not
the default condition for powers, why has the "Linkable" advantage never
been published? This to me is something critical enough that it would not
have been left out by accident after *three* revisions of the 4th edition.
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Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:26:40 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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> Imagine 2 Linked 5d6 EBs vs. 1 10d6 EB. Since you get defenses against each
> attack, the second power is a superior construction and thus should cost
> more than the first.
Exactly what I was trying to say, but so much clearer.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 21:28:44 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: San Angelino (Re: Greetings)
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> >3. With the 'scientific' origin of powers, what kinds of origins are
> > going to be 'out'? No magic, faerie realm, undead, psycho-activated
> > (I think I am, therefore reality for me became that way), alien,
> > X-dimensional, destiny, demi-god, etc type origins? I imagine it's
> > too late, but I personally prefer worlds that leave the nature of
> > Super Powers as vague and unknown. Leaving the field open to all the
> > genre's full absurdity.
> >
>
> I think that's a staple of the genre- i wouldn't say 'absurd', i'd say
> 'multi-gneric'. It's no more absurd than a dark future with an extensive
> net-economy (encouraging freelance work) AND mega-powerful corps
> (which are arguably obselete in such a world)
Oh don't get me wrong. It is totally absurd. And I wouldn't have it any
other way. It's
what I love so much about Super Heroes. They're an unreal idea in an almost real
world.
Legends of mythic porportion come to life.
What bothered me about the San Angelino promo was how it tried to explain
Super's in so
rational and scientific a manner as to stifle the genre. IMHO. Otherwise I loved
what I saw.
I'll probably buy it and just write out that portion of it in my own usage.
--
Rook
Super Hero Links Page:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 21:29:23 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Heromaker Collections
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> I've heard of disks of collected characters being for sale.
> Anybody tell me where that would be?
> Thanks in advance.
http://www.herogames.com
--
Rook
Super Hero Links Page:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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>>>>> "VL" == Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> writes:
VL> Uh ... no. Rather, you "pay" for this ability with the possibility of
VL> having the power stolen AND used *against* you by your enemies.
Uh... no. You "pay" for this ability with the fact that your powers *will*
be stolen and used against you by your enemies. Focus is not a limitation
because that might happen, it is a limitation because it will happen.
That does not change the fact that if one frequently loans equipment to
one's allies, those allies should pay for the equipment.
VL> And in any case, even if it got REALLY obnoxious, I'd prefer to make
VL> the single character work out a UBO structure rather than require other
VL> characters to pay points for what is still an ability of the first.
A Universal Focus is not necessarilly an ability of the character that
purchases his powers with that limitation.
VL> They benefit from it, but only to the same degree that a character
VL> benefits from the presence of any teammate. I'm currently in a
VL> campaign where I play the brickish sidekick [Castle] of swashbuckling
VL> vigilante Cavalier. Does he pay for super strength, OAF: Castle?
VL> Should I buy chemistry skills, IAF: Cavalier?
Here is where your analogy breaks: If Castle and Cavalier are separated
they do not have access to each other's abilities. But if Cavalier gives
Castle his radio (OAF, Universal), separating the two characters does not
deprive Castle of the use Cavalier's radio. If Cavalier frequently loans
a radio to Castle, Castle should buy one for himself.
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Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:32:40 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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> It really doesn't matter whether you play this the other way around or not.
> This is mostly a "points thingy" that makes the smaller Power cheaper.
> When using this Power/Linked Power, _I_, the player choose the Power Level
> I want to use (assuming I didn't add a Limitation like "Beam Attack").
> What this means is that I could fire off an attack that does 12d6 EB/3d6
> Flash, one that does 12d6 EB/0d6 Flash, or 1d6 EB/3d6 Flash (maybe even 0d6
> EB/3d6 Flash, so long as 1 END is spent for the EB when using the Powers).
Nooooooo!
That really doesn't work. Not at all.
No matter which interpretation you use, which camp you side with,
running the limitation like that is just a plain old points crock.
Basically, you get a -1/2 on a power for absolutely no disadvantage, save
having to spend 1 END on another power for a 0 level. This means there is
no reason not to take every power linked.
Hmmm. Me and Gazza, one of the generals in the "yes you can" camp
came to this conclusion a year or so ago. Wish he were here now to help
further this one aspect of the linked argument.
Does anyone know how to get a hold of Gazza, BTW. I miss his
commentary.
-Tim Gilberg
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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>>>>> "MS" == Michael Sprague <msprague@eznet.net> writes:
MS> And, how about a Limitation saying Power J can only be used with Powers
MS> X, Y and Z. As a house rule, I made this a -1/4 version of Linked in
MS> my campaign.
How about if you are going to rework Linked you first decide whether or not
"Linkable" is the default condition for powers. That is, is it possible to
use multiple powers simultaneously, or not. If you decide not, then you
need to decide the advantage cost of "Linkable".
Only then should you worry about the various "flavors" of Linked.
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Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:55:44 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
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> I will cut myself short, with a couple of rhetorical questions. Charges
> specifically states that it provides the Zero Endurance advantage as a
> freebie. Linked came about at least one edition after Charges. So, why
> does Linked not mention this "Linkable" advantage? If "Linkable" is not
> the default condition for powers, why has the "Linkable" advantage never
> been published? This to me is something critical enough that it would not
> have been left out by accident after *three* revisions of the 4th edition.
That's easy. Because there is no such thing as "Linkable".
Powers that are linked have become a new Metapower. They aren't seperate.
Having two powers be seperate and together isn't allowed at all, even with
any type of advantage. Buy them all seperately, in a MP if you wish.
-Tim Gilberg
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
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>>>>> "JD" == Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> writes:
JD> I have just acquired a copy of Ninja Hero, and I was wondering what the
JD> major differences between it and TUMA are.
Aaron Allston vs. Steve Long.
While TUMA reprints most of the game mechanics of Ninja Hero, the latter is
a more down to earth book that can be used with almost any campaign. Ninja
Hero includes a sourcebook dealing with martial artists in extant campaigns
and running martial arts campaigns at various power levels; it was not
reprinted in TUMA.
The "Ultimate" books are strongly geared towards two things: supers
campaigns revolving around a particular type of character and power gamers.
To wit, a dozen variations of Aid in a cheap Mutipower (which is prohibited
by Ninja Hero for martial arts campaigns) and the ranged martial maneuvers
(which is just plain stupid -- use combat skill levels with your weapons).
Add an Ultimate book to most extant campaigns and you will quickly
unbalance things.
As for content... TUMA adds a bunch of unnecessary maneuvers -- they
duplicate the effects of existing maneuvers combined with a few combat
skill levels. At least one of the maneuvers is illegal: abort on a throw
maneuver base. It goes on to rework almost every style written up in Ninja
Hero, frequently adding 4 to 8 of these "new" maneuvers to each style.
TUMA includes new write ups for a plethora of obscure and questionable
styles, and occasionally something actually useful. The fictional styles
(which do not exist in NH) are obnoxious at best and frequently worse.
Many of Long's power writeups range from questionable to outright broken.
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Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 22:07:48 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight
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Stephen McGinness wrote:
>
> these things. Perhaps when you have a power then if it is not invisible and
> you can't think of obvious special effects for all three senses then it
> means it is subject to being worked out by _common_ _sense_, e.g., an INT
> roll or something.
Hmmm... "Common Sense" as a sense group! I wonder what it would mean to
be invisible to common sense?
Seriously, taking "miscellaneous minor effects" in place of a third sense
group seems practical, balancing, and within the spirit of the rules.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 22:15:13 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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> MS> And, how about a Limitation saying Power J can only be used with Powers
> MS> X, Y and Z. As a house rule, I made this a -1/4 version of Linked in
> MS> my campaign.
>
> How about if you are going to rework Linked you first decide whether or not
> "Linkable" is the default condition for powers. That is, is it possible to
> use multiple powers simultaneously, or not. If you decide not, then you
> need to decide the advantage cost of "Linkable".
Answer is:
NOT IMPORTANT.
Cause every limitation in the game is just a variation on 'limited' anyway.
So I can write down whatever I want, call it whatever I want, then take it to my
GM for
a value ruling. Chances are if it matches the GM's reading of something already
in a published book
then I'll get a ruling matching that. But that's not always the case.
--
Rook
Super Hero Links Page:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:23:58 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
Subject: Re: San Angelino (Re: Greetings)
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
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At 09:28 PM 12/9/97 -0800, Rook wrote:
> Oh don't get me wrong. It is totally absurd. And I wouldn't have it any
>other way. It's
>what I love so much about Super Heroes. They're an unreal idea in an almost real
>world.
>Legends of mythic porportion come to life.
> What bothered me about the San Angelino promo was how it tried to explain
>Super's in so
>rational and scientific a manner as to stifle the genre. IMHO. Otherwise I loved
>what I saw.
> I'll probably buy it and just write out that portion of it in my own usage.
>
well, i'd say there;s room for both- a 'rationally described' character
(from some point of view) and some guy who headbutted a giant rabbit and
hence can shoot eye-beams (go figure) in one team is coolest. . .
>--
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:32:16 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
Subject: Re: Any Published Champions Speedsters?
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 05:32 AM 12/10/97 -500, Vance Scott wrote:
>> Hello;
>> In my quest for info on Speedsters I have one more question.
>>
>> Are they any Speedsters published in any Champions books. So far I've
>> been unable to find any.
Though not an offical product, The summer issue of Herozine had a Speedster,
named Torrent, she was a member of The DVT, a super villain team.
While I haven't done so in the past, if anyone is interested I could start
posting some Herozine characters to the list.
Michael
Rising Force Publications
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm
From: Michael Sprague <msprague@eznet.net>
Subject: RE: Greetings
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:39:46 -0800
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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X-UID: 99
>> Are there any plans for more superhero miniatures in the foreseeable
>> future? Ever since Soldiers & Sorcery (? is that the name? doesnt sound
>> exactly right) stopped doing the Champions minis (did they go out of
>> business?), there's nobody left doing superhero miniatures.
>
> To my knowledge, the company did go out of bussiness (taking about a
> $100 dollar order that I had send and sending me nothing in return,
> bummer). I would be interested in a company that did sell Super Hero
> minatures, but I would be a bit hesitant to order from them initially
> (fool me once shame on you, foo me twice, well you know the rest).
While in general I liked the S&S stuff (by the way, I am sure I have seen
some of the champs stuff still available at a local gaming store), they
were _huge_! In Champions scale (1" = 2m), the miniatures were about 8
feet tall, and some were larger yet. Even 25mm is large for Hero, and the
S&S stuff was around 30mm.
~ Mike
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 01:49:00 EST
Subject: Re: Greetings
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<< Much as I just told you to hold back the spam ( :) ); I'd love it if you
used us for market reseach into what would make good future products. >>
I will take that into consideration. In fact, I think I did that in my first
message to the list. ;)
<< Remember for every one of us in here, there is often a whole gaming group
out there that we GM or talk with. So word from here does spread pretty far at
times.>>
Understood. Just do me a favor and make sure that everyone in those groups
has a copy of the San Angelo preview. ;)
Mark @ GRG
http://members.aol.com/goldrushg
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:50:02 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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> How about if you are going to rework Linked you first decide whether or not
> "Linkable" is the default condition for powers. That is, is it possible to
> use multiple powers simultaneously, or not. If you decide not, then you
> need to decide the advantage cost of "Linkable".
There is no need for this, as Linkable would not be allowed. If
powers aren't linked, they are seperate powers. Two linked powers become
one metapower. There is no allowed in-between.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 22:56:28 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Herozine?
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> Though not an offical product, The summer issue of Herozine had a Speedster,
Hey is this Herozine a published thingy? or a web thingy?
> While I haven't done so in the past, if anyone is interested I could start
> posting some Herozine characters to the list.
>
> Michael
> Rising Force Publications
> Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...
> http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm
--
Rook
Super Hero Links Page:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:59:58 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
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Rat's comments should be seen as exactly that, his. He has his
own (very strong) predjudices. One of them is a dislike for Long and
everything he writes, no matter how useful and good. Take with a (large)
grain of salt.
> The "Ultimate" books are strongly geared towards two things: supers
> campaigns revolving around a particular type of character and power gamers.
Blea. Oversimplificated and outright false.
> To wit, a dozen variations of Aid in a cheap Mutipower (which is prohibited
> by Ninja Hero for martial arts campaigns)
But a GM can allow or disallow anything he or she wishes. Just
because you dislike one particular power construct is no reason to say it
doesn't belong in print.
> and the ranged martial maneuvers
> (which is just plain stupid -- use combat skill levels with your weapons).
By the same token, of course, Rat means to say that all Martial
maneuvers are just plain stupid. Buy combat skill levels and just be
happy.
Or, if like most you like flavor, go ahead and use MAs, both
ranged and HTH for the added bonus to the game.
> Add an Ultimate book to most extant campaigns and you will quickly
> unbalance things.
Um, yeah, whatever.
>
> As for content... TUMA adds a bunch of unnecessary maneuvers -- they
> duplicate the effects of existing maneuvers combined with a few combat
> skill levels.
That's what all maneuvers are anyway. There is just a large
pre-made list to allow for different flavor.
> At least one of the maneuvers is illegal: abort on a throw maneuver base.
Which I believe had a special explination. Anyway.
> It goes on to rework almost every style written up in Ninja
> Hero, frequently adding 4 to 8 of these "new" maneuvers to each style.
For added flavor, yes. Quite nice, though one can still take a
simplified package.
> TUMA includes new write ups for a plethora of obscure and questionable
> styles, and occasionally something actually useful. The fictional styles
> (which do not exist in NH) are obnoxious at best and frequently worse.
Actually, they are good SuperHero and MA campaign MAs for certain
genre styles. Quite a nice selection, actually.
> Many of Long's power writeups range from questionable to outright
> broken.
Add the unspoken, "becuase that is not how I might do that power"
that must be added to all of Rat's interpretations of rules. Actually,
they are built well and take some different approaches to usually obscure
power construction areas.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 01:16:31 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
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> More to the point, doesn't your own FAQ quote Steve Peterson as follows?
> http://www.spacetec.com/~drg/hero/faq.html
>
> Q: How many attacks can you make in a single Phase?
>
> A: You may make only a single attack action during a Phase. You may
> activate as many attack powers as you have time, Endurance, and
> framework point allocations to activate, but you may still only make
> one attack action.
Actually, this is only one of what were originally two
(conflicting) answers. One somehow disappeared into the mists. Hmmm.
And actually, it's not as clear as it may seem. You may activate
the powers, but it does say only one attack (action). Is that to be read
only one attack power actually attacks?
-Tim Gilberg
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 02:27:12 EST
Subject: Re: San Angelo (Re: Greetings)
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<< 1. What's the ethnic makeup? And don't just tell me 'everyone'. :) >>
The ethnic make-up of what? Of the city? Of the NPCs appearing in the book?
Of the characters in the illos?
<< This plays a major role in cultures and relations. Are the asian groups
Chinese, Korean, Mhong, Philipino, Laotian, Vietnamese... >>
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes...
<< Are my hispanics Mexican, Mexican-American, Guatamalin, Columbian, Cuban
(not likely on the west coast...), Peruvian... >>
I don't think I'm following you here.
<< Are my caucasians WASP, Russian emmigrants, Irish, Italian... Are my blacks
Carribean, Afro-American, African... Pakistani or Indian? >>
We have a little of everything. Like I said, we tried to make San Angelo
seem like a real city with real people. If you want exact demographics of our
San Angelo I can dig them up for you. But I can tell you that if you are
expecting a city with just "four colors" (white, black, brown and yellow)
you're going to be very, very disappointed.
<< Any Reservations nearby? >>
Yes.
<< Do they get along like in SF, or kill each other when possible like in LA?
>>
Who?
<< Seperate neighborhoods (LA), or mixed in on the same streets (SF)? >>
A little of both, depending on the neighborhood in question. There are
certainly some neighborhoods in San Angelo in which the residents are
predominantly [name your ethnicity here], but there are also some very diverse
neighborhoods.
<< 2. Are we thinking a Northen CA style community or Southern CA style? It
read like a southern city from the intro. Kind of made me think of San Diego
meets Santa Cruz. >>
SA:CoH has not been detailed to that level, perhaps. We left a number of
elements vague for the GM to customize to tailor it to the style and needs of
his own campaign.
<< You know, northern is typical liberal, counterculture, lots of fringe
groups, and multi-ethnic. southern is more conservative, trend setting,
hollywood, anti immigrant, seperate races. >>
Northern is liberal and southern is conservative? Aren't we being just a bit
generalistic, here? And how can you associate Hollywood with
conservatism?<LOL>
<< 3. With the 'scientific' origin of powers, what kinds of origins are going
to be 'out'? >>
Not a single one. You need to re-read the section concerning the Flux again.
And just to be on the safe side, we revised that section to be even *more*
clear about what the flux's role in origins is.
In short it is a catalyst only. Nobody gets their powers from the flux.
Rather, the flux makes their powers "possible."
<< No magic, faerie realm, undead, psycho-activated (I think I am, therefore
reality for me became that way), alien, X-dimensional, destiny, demi-god, etc
type origins?>>
You can do whatever you like in your game. We are presenting a setting for
you to use, tear apart, whatever you like. But plerase don't think that we are
intentionally bvuilding in some kind of "limiters" into the setting. We are
not.
<< I imagine it's too late, but I personally prefer worlds that leave the
nature of Super Powers as vague and unknown. Leaving the field open to all the
genre's full absurdity.>>
Then you are doing just that... imagining. ;)
<< 4. There's more stuff to say, but I'll get to it as I think of it.>>
I welcome your questions and comments. However, I would urge you to reread
that chapter in its entirety before posting your q
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 02:34:40 EST
Subject: Re: How do I buy these abilites??
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<< I bought FTL with the -3/4 limitation "only on energy currents". Anybody
have any ideas how I can make him truly 'street legal'? What's he missing?
Shrinking? >>
Actually, FTL cannot be used within the atmosphere, according to the BBB.
Might I suggest using a form of Teleport, with the special effect/Limitation
of "Only along electrical currents?" Just a thought.
Mark @ GRG
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 01:56:51 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
Subject: Re: Herozine?
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At 10:56 PM 12/9/97 -0800, Rook wrote:
>> Though not an offical product, The summer issue of Herozine had a Speedster,
>
> Hey is this Herozine a published thingy? or a web thingy?
Published, in fact we have been around for four years.
You can check out our web site for more info, but be warned, it hasn't been
updated much lately. We are currently building a new page that I can update
my self.
Michael
Rising Force Publications
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 02:00:59 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: How do I buy these abilites??
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> Actually, FTL cannot be used within the atmosphere, according to the BBB.
> Might I suggest using a form of Teleport, with the special effect/Limitation
> of "Only along electrical currents?" Just a thought.
So can we consider this an "official" ruling. <g>
Anyway, that's a construct I used myself a few times. Once, I
mixed it with a limitation for no control over destination as the
character moved through power lines, grids, etc. Never knew exactly where
he'd pop out.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 02:02:37 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
Subject: Re: How do I buy these abilites??
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At 02:34 AM 12/10/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< I bought FTL with the -3/4 limitation "only on energy currents". Anybody
>have any ideas how I can make him truly 'street legal'? What's he missing?
>Shrinking? >>
>
> Actually, FTL cannot be used within the atmosphere, according to the BBB.
>Might I suggest using a form of Teleport, with the special effect/Limitation
>of "Only along electrical currents?" Just a thought.
Another way, is linked desolidfication. Whlie disolid you can use FTL in an
atmosphere, but FTL is so hard to calculate when you only go a short distance.
I would go with limited T-Port as well.
Michael
Rising Force Publications
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 08:29:05 GMT
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Stephen McGinness)
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight
Cc: champ-l@org.omg
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At 10:07 PM 9/12/97 -0800, Robert A. West wrote:
>Hmmm... "Common Sense" as a sense group! I wonder what it would mean to
>be invisible to common sense?
Good Question!!
"THAT couldn't POSSIBLY have happened, therefore there must be a better
explanation for it!"
Maybe something like ghosts are supposed to have. If you are "sensitive" you
will notice the ghost, if you are not then you will see nothing........
>Seriously, taking "miscellaneous minor effects" in place of a third sense
>group seems practical, balancing, and within the spirit of the rules.
Thank you! :-)
><------------------------------------------------------->
>Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
>Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
>http://www.erols.com/robtwest
>
Stephen
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 08:38:34 GMT
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Stephen McGinness)
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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At 12:30 AM 10/12/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>>>>> "VL" == Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> writes:
>
>VL> They benefit from it, but only to the same degree that a character
>VL> benefits from the presence of any teammate. I'm currently in a
>VL> campaign where I play the brickish sidekick [Castle] of swashbuckling
>VL> vigilante Cavalier. Does he pay for super strength, OAF: Castle?
>VL> Should I buy chemistry skills, IAF: Cavalier?
>
>Here is where your analogy breaks: If Castle and Cavalier are separated
>they do not have access to each other's abilities. But if Cavalier gives
>Castle his radio (OAF, Universal), separating the two characters does not
>deprive Castle of the use Cavalier's radio. If Cavalier frequently loans
>a radio to Castle, Castle should buy one for himself.
I'm not sure I follow either of your arguments through, but feel closer to
Ludator's position than Rat's.
A power is OK by me if _someone_ has paid for it. In the Castle and Cavalier
example being played out above, yeah Cavalier may provide castle with his
radio and Castle benefits from that, what isn't mentioned is that in doing
so Cavalier is completely deprived of a power that he has paid points for,
and if Castle loses said piece of equipment Cavalier will NOT get the points
back. If Cavalier had bought Aid: STR and regularly uses it to boost
Castle's STR ability should Castle have to buy the extra STR??
Just because another member of the team benefits from someone else's power
doesn't mean that it is advantageous for the character who paid the points
for it, and just because a limitation saves a character points doesn't mean
it can't be advantageous for another member of the group. I'm quite happy as
a referee to see _paid_for_ pieces of kit being swapped.
Stephen
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 03:42:22 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight
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At 08:29 AM 12/10/97 GMT, Stephen McGinness wrote:
>At 10:07 PM 9/12/97 -0800, Robert A. West wrote:
>>Hmmm... "Common Sense" as a sense group! I wonder what it would mean to
>>be invisible to common sense?
>
>Good Question!!
>
>"THAT couldn't POSSIBLY have happened, therefore there must be a better
>explanation for it!"
>
>Maybe something like ghosts are supposed to have. If you are "sensitive" you
>will notice the ghost, if you are not then you will see nothing........
>
But wouldn't that be invisible to all senses *but* Common Sense? (Or
whatever you define "sensitive" to be.) If they are still visible to
sight... you may just tell yourself it wasn't real.
This actually sounds like the thing that Garou (werewolves) in the White
Wolf game have. People can't see them if they don't want to be seen
(normal people, that is... few and far between in WW. : ) Sometimes
referred to as the SEP Field... Somebody Else's Problem. "I don't have to
deal with it, it's Somebody Else's Problem."
>>Seriously, taking "miscellaneous minor effects" in place of a third sense
>>group seems practical, balancing, and within the spirit of the rules.
>
>Thank you! :-)
I like it, too.
- Jerry
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 01:02:06 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight (Was Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint)
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Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>
> On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, Robert A. West wrote:
>
> > Bill Svitavsky wrote:
> > >
> > > As far as the wooshing goes, a glider might be a good example to consider.
> >
> > And, of course, Gliding normally costs no END, therefore is IPE by
> > default. My word! Do you think that this may have been intentional?
> > ;-)
> >
>
> Actually, no. Powered flight wouldn't be the determining factor for a
> wooshing noise, as I understand it.
Actually, yes. First of all, the "wooshing" noise that most people seem
to be thinking of from real life are the engines. In WW2, gliders were
used several times with relative or complete surprise: consider the
German assault on Belgium. That is a pretty good argument for IPE, IMHO.
> It seems to me that size and speed are the determining factors for
> whooshing. Why should a character Flying at 10" per phase make any more
> noise than a character Gliding at 10", if his thrust is silent?
If his thrust is silent, then he has IPE, or sound is not one of the
three sense groups. I don't think that IPE need make passing
through the air completely silent at close range, any more than having an
IPE attack makes the character's breathing silent, especially if the
character is pushing several phases in a row.
>
> As I said, I don't have any good firsthand experience with gliders. It
> wouldn't surprise me if up close one might hear a little noise coming from
> one, but I doubt you'd hear much very far away.
As I remarked above, they were pretty effective as silent approach in
World War II. To first order, I think that the rules work out about
right. Second-order is special effect, and third order is beyond the
precision of the rules.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 01:30:16 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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Michael Sprague wrote:
>
>
> And, how about a Limitation saying Power J can only be used with Powers X,
> Y and Z. As a house rule, I made this a -1/4 version of Linked in my
> campaign.
No house rule required: this is a garden-variety Variable Limitation,
with different flavors of the same limitation instead of different
limitations.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 04:42:28 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: To Steven Brust Readers
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I've been writing up some info for the fantasy world of Steven Brust's
Vlad Taltos for a possible future campaign (And because it's one of my
favorite worlds).
I'm curious to know, how would people write up sorcery from that world?
I've been debating VVP v. Multipower. Since sorcery technically is just
drawing on power from the Orb and using it with a skill roll, VVP seems
like the best option, but for a fantasy game simulating the effects from
the book is very expensive. Teleports of a couple of hundred miles are
not uncommon, even for a less skilled sorcerer. I'm tempted to resort to
house rules.
Witchcraft is a little easier, since it has alot of built in limitations
(Gestures, incant, extra time, spell components), and is so flexible it
almost has to be a VVP.
Thoughts or opinions?
TokyoMark
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Locks
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 01:53:48 -0800
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
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On Tuesday, December 09, 1997 12:08 PM, Dave Mattingly wrote:
<snip>
>One advantage, though, is that it's quick and portable. If I want to
get
>into your car or your home, I can quickly jiggle a key in your lock,
and
>come back later with a perfect match. Very inconspicuous.
Nope. He jiggled that key a couple dozen times to get it. Every time
he filed, he had to jiggle again.
Filksinger
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 01:56:22 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
>
> Apparantly a common misconception: Linked *requires* the use of a power
> with another power, but the description never says anything about
> "allowing one power to be used with another". It is a limitation because
> the limited power cannot be used alone.
>
> I will cut myself short, with a couple of rhetorical questions. ...
More to the point, doesn't your own FAQ quote Steve Peterson as follows?
http://www.spacetec.com/~drg/hero/faq.html
Q: How many attacks can you make in a single Phase?
A: You may make only a single attack action during a Phase. You may
activate as many attack powers as you have time, Endurance, and
framework point allocations to activate, but you may still only make
one attack action.
This seems to clearly put paid to the idea of a "Linkable" advantage,
although it is not the way that I had been running things prior to
reading this. If my tank has a 120mm gun and a coaxial machine gun, I
can fire either or both, provided that I am using the same attack action,
attack roll and attack options for both. If I want to ensure that the
two fire only together, then I can take the smaller power as linked and
save some points, while wasting ammo.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 02:21:56 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Regenerating limbs
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Rick Holding wrote:
>
> -- Robert A. West wrote:
> ><<snip>>
> >
> > Thus, I would hold that a Drain BODY cannot be used for this purpose.
> > Drain Movement might have an SFX of injuring a leg, but severing the
> > limb is not generally a reasonable special effect, unless regrowing limbs
> > is an everyman power.
>
> Why not? In a world where powers are defined by special effects, why
> can't a body drain be represented by eventual lose of limbs?
Sorry, I left out a piece of the argument, assuming that it would be
clear. If you represent limb loss by a Drain, then what happens when the
Drain fades? Doesn't the limb logically have to regrow? Also, remember
that the fade rate is unaffected by the target, so it will fade just as
fast for feeble Aunt May as for Spiderman. This just has the wrong look
and feel for my taste.
> What about a
> vorpal blade? It does normal damage and on an 8- activation (5-, whatever) the
> target suffers 1-2D6 body drain, recovery time shifted into the far future.
Fine, you sever my arm with recovery 5 pts/year(+2 1/4)! Even if I am
the worst bozo in the world, I will bud a new arm after a couple of
months, and get it back in a year or eighteen months.
Compare this to a 1-2D6 Cumulative Major Transform (loss of limb). There
are two options for a Transform: to reverse automatically with BODY
recovery, or to reverse only after specific conditions are met. In this
case, we reverse only if a specific limb-regrowing power is used, a
prosthetic obtained or other specialized conditions apply.
>
> On a side issue, (and please don't think this is a shot at you), many
> people on this list seem to prefer the use of transform as a catch-all power.
I regard Transform as the last resort power, and prefer to use another
type of power whenever possible. For example, Sniper's blinding acid
attack on page 53 is pointed in the book as a Major Transform. I would
prefer to point it as Suppress Normal Sight, Uncontrolled on a continuing
charge. Normal sight could be bought as a 30-pt power, so you have your
active point total right there.
One of my main objections to Transform is that the 5-point variety is
almost useless in terms of game effect, the 10-point is very limited, and
the 15-point variety is absolutely unlimited. This is too steep a curve.
In the case of limb loss and serious maiming, I simply don't see any
option that is any better than Transform. If the character has Extra
Limbs, then one could Suppress or Drain that power, but most characters
do not, and I disagree with the Drain BODY concept for the reasons above
stated, so I am left with Major Transform as the least of evils.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Comments: Authenticated sender is <b1tlbx98@pop1.sympatico.ca>
From: "Vance Scott" <b1tlbx98@pop1.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 05:32:22 -500
Subject: Re: Any Published Champions Speedsters?
Reply-to: vances@sympatico.ca
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Priority: normal
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> Hello;
> In my quest for info on Speedsters I have one more question.
>
> Are they any Speedsters published in any Champions books. So far I've
> been unable to find any.
>
> Any edition of the game will do.
There are two speedsters in Champions of the North. Gazelle and
Lightspeed they are enemies. Gazelle is a member of the Sentinels the
offical canadian hero team, and lightspeed is her personal enemy.
Gazelle's costume is quite smart looking, in my opinion.
Vance Scott
Vanquisher of all foes
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 07:45:38 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Greetings
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> Much as I just told you to hold back the spam ( :) ); I'd
>love it if you used us for market reseach into what would make good
>future products.
I'm going to have to agree with this myself. But I'll take it further than
that, you are more than welcome to send me ads provided you also carrying on
normal conversation and answer questions too. I appreciate how you have
entered the mailing list. From what I can tell, you have done a great job
in answering every e-mail you could. Thanks for that.
> Remember for every one of us in here, there is often a whole
>gaming group out there that we GM or talk with. So word from here
>does spread pretty far at times.
At times I know I've been part of up to three different gaming groups at one
time. When Fuzion came out, I showed the download to over 15 players within
about two weeks. So yeah, I guess this list does spread pretty far. Take
it easy and talk at you later.
Sparx
=====================================================
Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:24:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Reply-To: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight (Was Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint)
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On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Robert A. West wrote:
> Bill Svitavsky wrote:
> >
> > On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, Robert A. West wrote:
> >
> > > Bill Svitavsky wrote:
> > > >
> > > > As far as the wooshing goes, a glider might be a good example to consider.
>
> > >
> > > And, of course, Gliding normally costs no END, therefore is IPE by
> > > default. My word! Do you think that this may have been intentional?
> > > ;-)
> > >
> >
> > Actually, no. Powered flight wouldn't be the determining factor for a
> > wooshing noise, as I understand it.
>
> Actually, yes. First of all, the "wooshing" noise that most people seem
> to be thinking of from real life are the engines. In WW2, gliders were
> used several times with relative or complete surprise: consider the
> German assault on Belgium. That is a pretty good argument for IPE, IMHO.
>
We seem to be misunderstanding one another here. I was considering the
"wooshing" issue in terms of realistic physics, entirely separate from the
benefits of IPE. There are two questions here - should a "force of will"
flyer be silent, and should they have to pay for that silence?
If the noise comes from the engines, as you say, then I'd say a "force of
will" flyer *should* be silent. It isn't the fact that the flight is
powered that makes the noise, it's the fact that the power source could be
noisy. (Force of will is presumably silent.) That was my point, and I
think we might actually agree here.
> > It seems to me that size and speed are the determining factors for
> > whooshing. Why should a character Flying at 10" per phase make any more
> > noise than a character Gliding at 10", if his thrust is silent?
>
> If his thrust is silent, then he has IPE, or sound is not one of the
> three sense groups. I don't think that IPE need make passing
> through the air completely silent at close range, any more than having an
> IPE attack makes the character's breathing silent, especially if the
> character is pushing several phases in a row.
>
You answered my physics question with the Hero rules. I know what the
rules difference between Flight and Gliding is, though I've mentioned that
I give Flight for free what many people consider IPE. My question is: If a
flying character's power source is silent, is there any logical reason why
that character should make any more noise than a Gliding character? If you
choose to charge silent flyers for IPE, fine. I'm just wondering whether
it's logical to buy (or have granted) IPE for typical comic book flyers. I
believe it is.
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:26:58 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: evil henchman's guide (fwd)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 11:10 AM 12/10/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> 8. As tempting as it may be, never try to ravish the Evil Overlord's
> beautiful-but-wicked daughter. She can probably mop the floor with
> you. Daddy will *not* try to stop her.
Addendum for lieutenants: if the Evil Overlord's beautiful-but-wicked
daughter offers (*cough*) benefits in return for helping her overthrow
Daddy, tell her you're a eunuch. She can't keep a secret to save her life,
and no one will believe you if you rat.
> 9. Learn where the trap door is in the Evil Overlord's audience
> chamber. Avoid standing there, especially when bad news is brought
> to the Evil Overlord.
Better yet, always hand off messaging to lesser-ranked personnel if you can.
> 10. While the Evil Overlord is gloating over his anticipated success
> in the venture he is about to launch, it is considered impolite to
> ask "And if you fail?" You probably won't be flogged, maimed, or
> killed for your temerity, but why risk it?
Also, don't join in his evil laughter until someone else does. If he's
going to get annoyed, he'll take it out on the first one to start.
> 16. If you surrender to the Hero, don't try to stab him when his back
> is turned; the Sidekick will get you first.
Also, don't backstab the Sidekick or try to take him hostage. If the Hero
hesitates to attack, it's because the Sidekick is capable of kicking your
butt, and if the Sidekick can't whup you the Hero won't bother hesitating.
> 17. When mutilating cattle, avoid the ones with testicles.
Yes, but what if those are the bits you NEED? :]
> 13. Rather than simply being an attractive stage prop, make sure you
> know every detail of the running of the Evil Empire, so that if
> anything unpleasant happens to Daddy, you will be able to take
> over with minimal fuss. Then make sure that something
> unpleasant happens to Daddy.
Whoops -- planted advice, probably from a heroic spy. Don't TRY to make
something unpleasant to Daddy -- after all, you can't keep a secret to save
your life, and in this case that's literal.
==
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:27:01 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
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At 12:04 PM 12/10/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>Not true. I like the "Lightning Reflexes" pseudo-talent. It is much
>cleaner than allowing the abort element on strike maneuver bases.
It's also a lot cleaner than buying DEX with limitations; anything that
saves space on a character sheet is fine by me. :]
>I find most of his other mechanics questionable at best. They frequently
>work okay within extremely limited sets of circumstances, but fail
>spectacularly in the general. I also have problems with his frequent use
>of strangely limited powers to duplicate the effects of extant skills.
Yes, the "Xd6 Power, Requires Skill Roll, Exactly Duplicates Effects Of That
Skill (-1)" construction ranks in at about 50% of his wonky constructions.
I get the feeling that he somehow sees all skills as being useless for
anything but activation rolls, that to actually DO anything you have to buy
Powers. (Lord knows what his heroic campaigns look like, if he runs any).
A related glitch is his tendency to define things like stances and feints,
which normal people can do in even the most realistic campaigns, as Powers.
This is especially annoying with the latter, where he gives TWO
Power-oriented options for handling something that's a basic element of all
combat (I fake a punch on the playground, I'm feinting.)
Another 40% can be classed as "Xd6 Power, Doesn't Possess The Power (-1)",
that Invisibility, "Can still be seen -1" bit to eliminate line of sight.
(Steve, Invisibility makes you "immune to LOS" as a /side effect/ of NOT
being seen -- the two elements are indivisible ...)
--
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:27:03 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 12:05 PM 12/10/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>> 2) There's now a "Disable" element available which doesn't cost
>> anything, and improves your chances of impairing or disabling
>> the target. It struck me as possibly being broken, since the
>> supposed "balancing limits" didn't seem all that limiting (for
>> example, it's required to be aimed at a specific hit location,
>> but it doesn't take any OCV penatly for a called shot).
>
> O.K. Here's one I agreed with it's importance but quickly decided
>not to allow in my campaigns. Too potentially unbalancing. But, I can
>see some realistic and MA campaigns where this could be usefull.
I'd like to clarify: I did NOT think this was a bad /mechanic/, I just
thought he was insane to give it away for no extra points. A bone-breaking
or joint-spraining maneuver should be at least a LITTLE more expensive than
just striking someone outright.
>> training (aforementioned archery) simply does not break up
>> neatly into maneuvers like hand-to-hand fighting styles, so
>> this just doesn't feel right. I'd probably stick with Combat
>> Levels and called shots.
>
> Well, the one thing I like is the nice ranged trips and disarms.
We already had ranged disarms (look under "Focus"), and as for ranged trips
-- I think the best one is going to do trying to trip someone with a bow is
to shoot them in the leg and hope for a disabling result. Color me skeptical. :]
>> missing. Some of these new martial arts are so thinly
>> described, there's little point in including them; on the
>> other hand, the section on Pentjak Silat is so broad as to
>> make it a competitor in importance for Kung Fu.
>
> I'll take all the MA styles I can, even if thinly described. If I
>want to, I can get more info but it's always great to have choices for
>your players.
If I have to go running to the library for information already, it's only a
smidgen more effort to put the style together myself. This isn't Palladium
-- martial arts don't require a heck of a lot of work to build, especially
if you're just putting together the pre-done maneuvers like "Martial
Strike". I REALLY think Long would have been doing the HERO market a favor
by, say, dropping half of his fictional styles in favor of a little more
detail on the flavor and appearance of the real-life styles. Knowing the
game mechanics of Than Vo Dao or Re-Efi Areh Ehsee does me little to no good
without that material -- if I can't describe to my players how an NPC with
this style is moving and fighting, I can't really get effective use out of
that art.
> I was chuckly alot over all this. Very funny and effectively
>poking fun at some of the MA movie genre. Also some useful stuff for
>villian organizations or heroic getaways.
I will repeat the ancient mantra of the dinner table: once is funny, twice
is silly, three times is a spanking. By my count, Long has 11 spankings
coming (I'm giving him buys on the Paths of the 7 Ghost Sisters and the Way
of the Two Brothers).
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:27:07 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 11:59 AM 12/10/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>> And by the same token, can I dismiss your opinions just by "warning"
>> everyone that you have some very strong prejudices FOR Mr. Long?
>
> Hey. Actually, I do like what he's done for the system. I think
> his contributions can be ranked only behind Allston's.
In magnitude, yes, but only as an absolute value calculation. :]
> Oh, agreed. He's always sure to have the same arguments and same
>points, but he supports them well. He's our Hero Fundamentalist voice.
Hey, we need at least one. Most of the time, the innocent novice you
brought up (in the portion I clipped :] ) will be asking "How do you do X?",
looking for some "correct"/"official"/"canon" answer. There are really only
two stances which bear this seal of authority:
1) The "do what you want, it's your campaign" response. Most of
the people I know take this as a cop-out, even given that it's
now Hero Games corporate policy.
2) The exact, by-the-book, "fundamentalist" answer. That's all
Rat (or, for that matter, me, really) does when he responds --
he gives what he thinks is the best answer possible taken from
the book.
> Hmmm. I rather like this approach, actually. It seems to fit
>with Rat's "god has spoken" approach to anything revolving around Linked
>or Steve Long.
As opposed to your own "Long has spoken" approach? :]
> Not in all cases. Some are perfectly "Fundy" but still raise
>Rat's ire. I think some of it is personal. Rat doesn't want to use a
>Long construction.
Depends on which construction. Some of Long's constructions are simply
broken. Others are, on paper, legal but unnecessary (mostly the ones that
duplicate skill effects -- you're paying points for something that a
competent GM would allow the normal skill to do).
> Long just is more liberal with his rules than Rat is, not a
>problem on my end. The rules are there to enable any possible
>construction, not to hinder construction.
As I've mentioned before (in a discussion on Dark Champions), the problem is
not HOW liberal Long is, but WHEN. He resorts to "liberal" (or, as Sean
Fannon might put it, "interesting") constructions that bend or even outright
break the BBB rules WHEN HE DIDN'T HAVE TO. I know you think the majority
of these cases amount to his intent to somehow simulate the genre better,
but if he really thinks the
> Actually, I find it one of my most useful books. More so even
>than UMA. UMA vs Ninja Hero, you could get by with NH. UM vs well, maybe
>Mystic Masters, well, no contest. UM brings up and clarifies a lot of
>areas of under explained and under exampled rules. Does a good job too.
>It also, for the record, makes most Mental Powers *less* effective with
>its "different classes of minds" sections.
The different class bit was a good thing. I also liked the mentalist-only
skills (Veil, Cloak, and Facade). But really, GURPS Psionics is a superior
supplement -- FOR HERO -- in terms of campaign material and ideas, and
there's a LOT of Long's bad habits at work again (the duplicate effects of
Psych Lims on Mind Control, the unnecessary changes to Mind Scan, and the
execrable Desolid and Invisibility constructions).
On the other hand, as I've mentioned before, the bit where the book claims
to be a universal gaming supplement rather than a HERO sourcebook is a laugh
and a half.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:27:10 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings
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At 01:30 PM 12/10/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
> And that is EXACTLY what we are aiming to do. As another example, the
> sample PC hero team (The Justice Foundation) are known in the campaign
> setting as the "second string" team. Why? Because the MAIN hero team in
> the city are YOUR heroes.
>
> That's right. Your PCs are the top dog heroes in the city, and every one
> of our books is going to make that assumption. So, no, we will NOT be
> featuring the Justice Foundation heroes on every single book cover! <LOL>
THANK YOU! THANK YOU! Heaven and the Christmastime be praised!
Seriously, this was always something that annoyed me about previous 4E
products, where they advanced the timeline on their own schedule and assumed
that the Champions (or whatever other hero group the author liked best) have
already run through all their modules. The more books get published, the
further "behind" your campaign becomes, diverging further and further from
the universe until you're rewriting every supplement you buy practically
from scratch.
(For example, wasn't it a little late to tell us in =Normals Unbound= who
Mechanon's creator "really" was? Don't they think all us GM's who have been
using him since we first bought our Champs books have already worked that
out ourselves?)
A certain level of touch-up work is going to be necessary for any product,
but it's definitely a show of good faith to try to leave room in your
campaign material for the characters that the book is, in theory, being
purchased FOR. Glad to see you're on the right track!
==
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:27:12 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: San Angelo (Re: Greetings)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 01:30 PM 12/10/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
> So please, read it before you start spreading those comments that make
> other uninformed readers go "Screw that. I'm not wasting my money if I
> can't play faeries!"
Screw that! I'm not wasting my money if it lets some nut play faeries!
(Sorry -- had to say it. ;])
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:28:26 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: San Angelo (Re: Greetings)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 01:30 PM 12/10/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
> So please, read it before you start spreading those comments that make
> other uninformed readers go "Screw that. I'm not wasting my money if I
> can't play faeries!"
Screw that! I'm not wasting my money if it lets some nut play faeries!
(Sorry -- had to say it. ;])
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:28:27 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 08:28 PM 12/10/97, qts wrote:
>On Mon, 08 Dec 1997 16:03:46 -0500, Urklore The Iron wrote:
>
>>The link is a 1/2 disadvantage, but is it really?
>
>CA NE VA PAS RECOMMENCER!
Oh, Tish -- that's FrencH! Mm-mm-mm-mm-mm ...
--
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:28:29 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 05:14 PM 12/10/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> A great construction, BTW, as Desol is the only way in Hero to
>make one totally impervious. (To all but a select group of attacks)
Except that Desolid doesn't make you totally impervious to attacks. It
makes you INSUBSTANTIAL, and *that* makes you impervious to attacks of the
wrong special effects.
This is similar to the recent "non-shrinking Shrinking" thread. Some people
try to bypass the primary/"real" effect of a Power -- not the special
effects, but the actual purpose of that power within the mechanics -- to get
to the side effects. The Size Powers are probably the best example of this,
insofar as all they're really meant to do is alter your height & weight --
all of the PER and DCV modifications, et al., are the effects of the /size
change/. (Which is to say, ANYTHING that's twice the size of a human should
be +2 to be seen and hit, whether it officially bought a "Growth" power or not).
Another example is that silly "Invisibility to Sight Group, Can Be Seen" bit
in the Ultimate Mentalist, which he presents as a way to become immune to
mental powers by not falling within LOS. The problem is, if you can be
seen, then BY DEFINITION you are within line-of-sight. Trying to eat your
cake and have it, too, is an insult to the GM's intellect.
--
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:28:33 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
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At 05:03 PM 12/10/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>There are no such things as "attack powers".
I don't think the book backs you here, Rat.
On page 155, they equate certain powers with attacks ("OTHER ATTACKS ...
This Maneuver applies to any other attack not listed, like Energy Blast,
Entangle, Flash, Power Drain, and so on"). I think it's safe to say that
when anyone on this list refers to "attack power", they mean "any power
which can be equated with the 'Other Attack' Maneuver for the purposes of
combat". In short, any Power that requires an Attack Roll.
The phrase "attack power" is like the phrase "CON Stunned" -- it may not be
something direct from the rulebook, but chances are you understood what the
speaker meant by it, so complaining about it is the equivalent of a spelling
flame.
>It is Segment 12, the start of combat. I want to fly up near you and tag
>you with my Energy Blast. At the start of my action phase I activate my
>Flight and my Force Field (just in case). I use my first half-phase action
>to move. I activate my Energy Blast between my first and second half-phase
>actions as a 0-phase action. I use my second half-phase action to attack
>you with my Energy Blast.
Nope. The problem is, Energy Blast requires more than a 0-Phase action to
activate. It requires a 0-Phase action AND AN ATTACK ROLL to activate. You
can't use EB without the attack roll, and making the attack roll ends your
phase. You don't activate EB with a 0-Phase action and then use it in an
attack -- IT IS THE ATTACK.
Qv. p. 140, ACTION PHASES: "Any attack action such as Mind Control, Energy
Blast, or Punch takes a half Phase ...". Once more, Power == action. There
is no use w/o attack, no activation without use.
>A slight modification: instead of just activating my Energy Blast between
>my two half-phase actions, I want to activate my Flash as well. No
>problem: activation of a power is a 0-phase action, and I may perform as
>many as I wish at that point during my action phase. I have not made an
>attack action, yet, because my second half-phase action has not began.
But whichever power you activate first automatically invokes the attack roll
and half-phase action at the instant you turn it on. Use == Attack,
Activation == Use.
>So now a question: if I can use both my Flight and Force Field together
>during my first half-phase action, and if I can use my Force Field and
>Energy Blast together during my second half-phase action, where in the BBB
>does it prohibit me from using my Force Field, Energy Blast and Flash
>together during my second half-phase action? No rhetoric, please. I am
>using the BBB as the canonical reference to support my position; please
>have the courtesy to do the same.
No rhetoric here -- I've quoted enough for you to get the idea. You can use
Flight and Force Field freely because they do not require attack rolls to use.
--
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:35:00 -0600 (CST)
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From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
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>I have just acquired a copy of Ninja Hero, and I was wondering what the
>major differences between it and TUMA are. Mostly, is TUMA worth getting
>if I have NH? (I suspect it is.) How much of a rewrite am I going to have
>to do to the characters that I am rewriting now?
I had this same question a while back when I bought Ninja Hero. You are
going to get a lot of opinions here, that is why I love this list. A pool
of information, at the same time though, too much info can lead to
indecision. My own opinion here would be this. If you like Ninja Hero, if
you run a Martial Arts / Martial Arts Super Campaign, get TUMA. It won't
hurt. You won't have to do major overhauls to any Ninja Hero Character,
though you might want to. I myself find that most Champions Books have
something I can use out of them. And rules that I don't like or that are
unbalancing, well as the GM you can throw them out, or your GM can always
tell you no. Then find some other way to build a similar effect. Reading
through this thread I noticed that the Ranged Martial Arts were brought up.
Truthfully, that was the first thing I used out of the book for a Fantasy
Hero character no less. I told the GM I wanted to make an Archer for his
game when he was asking for concepts and he directed me to using them
straight from TUMA instead of making my own "trick" shots up. That way he
knew what I would have, what it would do, etc. Sure, I could have made them
up and he would have allowed it, but we both felt it would be easier on both
of us this way. Just my brief experience with TUMA I thought I'd share. As
I said, the list is full of opinions :) Take it easy and talk at you later.
Sparx
=====================================================
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:50:26 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Reply-To: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: How do I buy these abilites??
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On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, Case wrote:
>
> Problem (a):
> 'Aperion Negative' is a character I created who has the ability to
> travel along electrical current. While in this energy form, he can (a) use
> all of his electronic-based skills, like computer programming (like being in
> cyberspace), security systems, etc (b) travel FTL, (c) he can even 'jump'
> into a focus if someone hits him with an energy beam or flash. When you
> think about it, this is an incredibly powerful ability! But I really think
> I botched on how I bought the ability- I bought FTL with the -3/4 limitation
> "only on energy currents". Anybody have any ideas how I can make him truly
> 'street legal'? What's he missing? Shrinking?
>
An interesting set of problems, which I've dealt with before.
For (c), I'd buy Desolidification. If he can only maintain the energy
state while in a conductor, put a limitation on it.
For (b), I would built it as FTL, with the "only on energy currents"
limitation, and an advantage that it can work in an atmosphere. This
advantage isn't exactly orthodox; I tend to make up advantages without the
sanction of the rules. It should also be linked to Desolid.
The alternative is to build it as a Teleport. Many people feel this is
more legitimate, though I don't know why ignoring the description of
teleport as travel between points without crossing the intervening space
is any more legitimate than ignoring the restriction that FTL doesn't work
in an atmosphere.
Actually, I never liked that blanket ruling on FTL. The fact of the matter
is that people do travel FTL (or at least lightspeed) within the
atmosphere in comics, and a superhero game should have a mechanism for
doing so. As your example indicates, it need not be unbalancing to game
play.
As for (a), I'd stick an "Affects Solid" advantage on the skills,
since you'll have to use them while desolid. An Advantage on a Skill is
yet another shaky rules construction, but it does the job for me. If you
don't like that, you might try Telekinesis or Transform with Affects
Solid, using the skills in conjunction.
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:50:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
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On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, Vox Ludator! wrote:
> 3) There are rules for creating ranged martial arts styles
> (not "thunderpunching", but rather things like Zen archery).
> Struck me as a rather kneejerk set-up -- to the best of my
> knowledge, even the most "martial-arty" of ranged weapon
> training (aforementioned archery) simply does not break up
> neatly into maneuvers like hand-to-hand fighting styles, so
> this just doesn't feel right. I'd probably stick with Combat
> Levels and called shots.
>From the moment I looked at them I felt that the 'Ranged Martial Arts'
rules were really hokey. I agree with Vox and Rat, creative use of CSLs
can simulate these abilites much better.
> 5) There is LOTS and LOTS of padding. (Does anyone else feel
> like using Dim Mak on S.L. just to keep him from making
> *another* fictional style where every d*** maneuver is "The
> {adjective}{move} of {Name}"?)
I felt the sourcebook in the back was far to limited. Too much space was
wasted on useless fictional styles and design commentary. I did like all
the expanded Ninja material, including all the mythical ninja material (it
helps that a close friend virtually wrote most of that for S.L.). S.L.
needed to supply a few characters, a bibliography and notes on oriental
magic and genre conventions.
As his naming conventions... S.L. obviously has *never* seen the proper
source material. No one says 'My Crushing Blow of Chin Pok will now
destroy you!'; they say 'Now feel the might of my Thunder Palm
Technique!'.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 07:06:12 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Any Published Champions Speedsters?
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At 12:32 AM 12/10/97 -0600, Michael Nunn wrote:
>At 05:32 AM 12/10/97 -500, Vance Scott wrote:
>>> Hello;
>>> In my quest for info on Speedsters I have one more question.
>>>
>>> Are they any Speedsters published in any Champions books. So far I've
>>> been unable to find any.
>
>Though not an offical product, The summer issue of Herozine had a Speedster,
>named Torrent, she was a member of The DVT, a super villain team.
>
>While I haven't done so in the past, if anyone is interested I could start
>posting some Herozine characters to the list.
I wouldn't mind that.
---
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 07:21:57 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: How do I buy these abilites??
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At 02:02 AM 12/10/97 -0600, Michael Nunn wrote:
>At 02:34 AM 12/10/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
>><< I bought FTL with the -3/4 limitation "only on energy currents". Anybody
>>have any ideas how I can make him truly 'street legal'? What's he missing?
>>Shrinking? >>
>>
>> Actually, FTL cannot be used within the atmosphere, according to the BBB.
>>Might I suggest using a form of Teleport, with the special effect/Limitation
>>of "Only along electrical currents?" Just a thought.
>
>Another way, is linked desolidfication. Whlie disolid you can use FTL in an
>atmosphere, but FTL is so hard to calculate when you only go a short
distance.
>I would go with limited T-Port as well.
Actually, allowing FTL in atmosphere while Desolid is a "house rule"
(one which I happen to use, BTW; in fact, I may have been the first to
introduce it).
Within my own game, I'd use FTL, but for a published character I'd
probably use the Teleport scheme.
An argument could also be made for Extra-Dimensional Movement (real
world to "electronic world" and back).
---
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 07:23:22 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight
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At 10:07 PM 12/9/97 -0800, Robert A. West wrote:
>Stephen McGinness wrote:
>>
>
>> these things. Perhaps when you have a power then if it is not invisible and
>> you can't think of obvious special effects for all three senses then it
>> means it is subject to being worked out by _common_ _sense_, e.g., an INT
>> roll or something.
>
>Hmmm... "Common Sense" as a sense group! I wonder what it would mean to
>be invisible to common sense?
Automatic election to the office of Vice President of the United States.
>Seriously, taking "miscellaneous minor effects" in place of a third sense
>group seems practical, balancing, and within the spirit of the rules.
I agree here.
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 07:25:15 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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At 10:39 AM 12/9/97 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote:
>At 02:48 PM 12/9/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>>Again, there is no official ruling. You are both right.
>
>In fact, to be more accurate, there's no such thing as an "official ruling"
>in HERO. Steve Peterson says:
>
> "Our official position is that all rules are optional; each GM
> should decide for themselves what rules to use. The rules in
> the Hero System rulebook (which is included in Champions 4th
> Edition) cover most situations pretty well. However, we've
> presented many other rules in other books, either as variants
> or rules for other situations not covered in the basic rules.
> Whether or not those rules are used is up to the GM in each
> case; we don't think that our opinion should be held over that
> of an individual GM. Each GM should make their rule choices as
> they see fit, to make the game suit their own style, and their
> sense of what is fun. We tend to like most of the optional
> rules we've presented, otherwise we wouldn't have presented
> them. But that doesn't mean we use those rules all of the
> time, or that all of us at Hero hold each of those rules in
> the same esteem. Opinions vary, and that's as it should be, or
> so we think."
So, is that the official ruling? ;-]
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 07:31:59 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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At 11:32 PM 12/9/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> It really doesn't matter whether you play this the other way around or not.
>> This is mostly a "points thingy" that makes the smaller Power cheaper.
>> When using this Power/Linked Power, _I_, the player choose the Power Level
>> I want to use (assuming I didn't add a Limitation like "Beam Attack").
>> What this means is that I could fire off an attack that does 12d6 EB/3d6
>> Flash, one that does 12d6 EB/0d6 Flash, or 1d6 EB/3d6 Flash (maybe even 0d6
>> EB/3d6 Flash, so long as 1 END is spent for the EB when using the Powers).
>
> Nooooooo!
>
> That really doesn't work. Not at all.
>
> No matter which interpretation you use, which camp you side with,
>running the limitation like that is just a plain old points crock.
>Basically, you get a -1/2 on a power for absolutely no disadvantage, save
>having to spend 1 END on another power for a 0 level. This means there is
>no reason not to take every power linked.
I can see where the original poster got this idea, though. I think that
older versions of Linked said that the Powers had to be used in proportion
to each other, meaning that the 12d6 EB/3d6 Flash could be used at full
power, or at 8d6 EB/2d6 Flash, or 6d6 EB/1 1/2d6 Flash, etc. That text
didn't carry over, so a strict reading of the 4th Ed Linked Limitation
could be interpreted as above.
> Hmmm. Me and Gazza, one of the generals in the "yes you can" camp
>came to this conclusion a year or so ago. Wish he were here now to help
>further this one aspect of the linked argument.
>
> Does anyone know how to get a hold of Gazza, BTW. I miss his
>commentary.
Ditto! (He was also going to run a couple of the adventures from my
website -- "Power Dreams" and "Arms Against the Dragon" -- and tell me how
things went, and I always like concrete feedback on my material.)
---
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:36:24 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net (Unverified)
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: To Steven Brust Readers
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>I've been writing up some info for the fantasy world of Steven Brust's
>Vlad Taltos for a possible future campaign (And because it's one of my
>favorite worlds).
>
>I'm curious to know, how would people write up sorcery from that world?
>I've been debating VVP v. Multipower.
Well, for Vlad, who is a 'poor' sorceror, use a Multipower. For someone like
Aleria, a big wonking VPP is the way to go.
>Since sorcery technically is just
>drawing on power from the Orb and using it with a skill roll, VVP seems
>like the best option, but for a fantasy game simulating the effects from
>the book is very expensive.
Oh yeah!
>Teleports of a couple of hundred miles are
>not uncommon, even for a less skilled sorcerer. I'm tempted to resort to
>house rules.
Do it like this: FREAKING ENORMOUS VPP, Lots and Lots of UBO at Range (in
the millions), Only by Citizens of the Empire (-1/4), Requires a Skill Roll
(-1/2), Requires appropriate Spell Knowledge (-1/2), OIF - Orb of the Empire
(-1/2).
Then make people pay 1/10 the Real cost of a spell for the 'Knowledge' of a
specific spell (sort of like a multipower slot). Basically, that's the
mechanic for orb sorcery, everybody draws on the power of the Orb. Of
course, that's really a 'plot device', but otherwise forget the 'Jhereg'
books, b/c virtually everyone can pull thousand mile teleports, mind links
with infallable mind scanning (only for mind links, does not target), and
other things which cost grotesque amounts of points.
Then there's Pre-Empire Sorcery, i.e. the manipulation of raw Chaos (can you
say _Side Effects_?)
>Witchcraft is a little easier, since it has alot of built in limitations
>(Gestures, incant, extra time, spell components), and is so flexible it
>almost has to be a VVP.
Yup. Having a familiar should definitely add to the witch's skill roll.
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 07:40:46 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
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At 11:32 PM 12/9/97 -0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>I have just acquired a copy of Ninja Hero, and I was wondering what the
>major differences between it and TUMA are. Mostly, is TUMA worth getting
>if I have NH? (I suspect it is.) How much of a rewrite am I going to have
>to do to the characters that I am rewriting now?
>
>And did anyone see any major problems in NH that they fixed (either house
>rules, or changes made in TUMA)?
Whether TUMA is worth getting if you already have NH depends on your
needs. I personally can't think of a lot of reasons to *not* get it (the
only truly significant one being lack of cash flow).
TUMA includes several rules clarifications over NH, as well as about
half again the number of available martial manuevers and around three times
as many martial arts written up.
As for rewriting characters, the only significant change is the cost for
a Choke Hold; it goes from 5 to 4. This is because TUMA expands the Grab
maneuver so that the default form Grabs two of the opponent's limbs by
default, and a Choke Hold only Grabs one limb (the head, which is
considered a limb for these purposes).
I can't think offhand of any problems I caught in NH.
---
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:46:34 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
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At 07:46 PM 12/10/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>VL> You can't use EB without the attack roll,
>
>Sure you can. Fire it in the air as part of a presence attack. It falls
>under "demonstration of a power".
Sounds good, except that it doesn't fit the description of the power. p.
65: "A character with this Standard Power can attack at range. To use an
Energy Blast, the character states his target and makes an Attack Roll."
Seems pretty straightforward -- a use of energy blast IS an attack, and
requires an Attack Roll.
Really, PRE attacks are inherently wonky anyhow. After all, the example of
Howler on p. 171 has her making a REAL ATTACK (nailing an agent), THEN
making the PRE attack. Strictly speaking, this should be illegal whether
she's using a Power or not, yes/no?
--
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:46:36 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
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At 07:47 PM 12/10/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>> The problems with this are so numerous that anyone with any understanding
>>> of the mechanics should see them.
>
>TRG> No, tell me. I don't see them. It seems to work fine here.
>
>Case in point.
Cold, Rat. Very, very cold. :]
--
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:46:38 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Computer Questions
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At 07:59 PM 12/10/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
> On a chart labeled General Computer Information in Champions it
>states:
> Normal Computers have:
> ...
> 3) No Psychological Disadvantages
>
> Under the section 'Normal Computers,' however, it states:
> ... They cannot have Disadvantages.
>
> In the only other Champions book I have acquired, 'Underworld Enemies,'
>the write up includes the following for a Normal Computer known as
>'The Gallows' (pg. 44):
> Disadvantages
> 20 | Physical Limitation: Must obey creator's orders
> 20 | Physical Limitation: Computer
> 20 | Distinctive Features: Computer (Not Conc, Major Reaction)
> 10 | DNPC: Creator (As Powerful), 14-
The BBB "trumps" supplements in cases like these, unless the supplement in
question is some kind of official errata source (like occasionally got
printed in Adventurer's Clubs).
If you look at the case above, this is just a powergamer/munchkin creation
from square one. The first three Disadvantages are already inherent in
being a computer, and the last one is invalid -- computers are purchased as
Followers of characters, and in any case are not real characters. A non-AI
has no real mind, and therefore can't give a damn about anyone enough to
HAVE a DNPC.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good |
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 07:56:26 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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X-UID: 155
At 01:56 AM 12/10/97 -0800, Robert A. West wrote:
>More to the point, doesn't your own FAQ quote Steve Peterson as follows?
> http://www.spacetec.com/~drg/hero/faq.html
>
>Q: How many attacks can you make in a single Phase?
>
>A: You may make only a single attack action during a Phase. You may
> activate as many attack powers as you have time, Endurance, and
> framework point allocations to activate, but you may still only make
> one attack action.
>
>This seems to clearly put paid to the idea of a "Linkable" advantage,
>although it is not the way that I had been running things prior to
>reading this. If my tank has a 120mm gun and a coaxial machine gun, I
>can fire either or both, provided that I am using the same attack action,
>attack roll and attack options for both. If I want to ensure that the
>two fire only together, then I can take the smaller power as linked and
>save some points, while wasting ammo.
I'm not sure how this will affect this part of the GLD, but in TUSV I
will be reviving the old "Gangfire" option from Robot Warriors, in which a
vehicle can fire off multiple weapons at once (at an OCV penalty, of
course).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:10:54 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Subject: evil henchman's guide (fwd)
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Time for some levity.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:03:29 -0500 (EST)
From: David Armoza <armoza@ait.nrl.navy.mil>
To: weasel-patrol@otd.com
Subject: evil henchman's guide
The following is much in line with those lists we saw earlier about flunkies
to evil overlords, but it expands on it quite nicely. I especially liked
the inclusion of the religious element. Enjoy :)
david
Originally from the written sf newsgroup by
John & Linda VanSickle <vansickl@erols.com>
The Evil Henchman's Guide
Recently, the Society of Evil Overlords has noticed a regrettable
decline in the availability and quality of fanatical henchmen, devoted
worshippers, and loyal infantry. We wish to correct this growing problem
by submitting the following general guidelines for Evil Henchmen.
DISCLAIMER: The use of masculine/feminine pronouns and assignment of
gender roles is not intended to preclude a reversal of gender roles. It
is, however, intended to offend those who think that nuclear missiles are
deployed because of their phallic appearance. Nyah.
I. General tips for henchmen of all varieties:
1. Avoid getting sent to rough up the hero(es). Ransacking hotel
rooms is probably safe, but going 'round to beat up the good guys
is a sure ticket to the bottom of the Thames. Remember, however,
that all Heroes get roughed up at least once, so if this has never
happened to the Hero, go for it!
2. When the hero or his sidekicks are at your mercy, don't stop to
gloat.
3. If you can't resist gloating, don't boast about the reward you
expect to receive from your master for bringing them in or killing
them off.
4. If you gloat and boast, don't be surprised if a comrade of the
person you have at your mercy jumps you from behind while you're
distracted with your boasting.
5. If you fail to complete your mission, skip town. Returning to the
Evil Overlord to report on your failure will usually get you killed.
6. Avoid killing people not actively involved in the rebellion; the
Evil Overlord has enough enemies as it is. Especially don't kill
relatives, significant others, or best friends of the hero.
Normally after the Evil Overlord is overthrown, henchmen can get
off with just a little community service time, but if you off the
Hero's loved ones, he'll make lasagna out of you.
7. Unless the Evil Overlord pays extra for indiscriminate slaughter,
avoid it. Why should you give your services away for free?
8. As tempting as it may be, never try to ravish the Evil Overlord's
beautiful-but-wicked daughter. She can probably mop the floor with
you. Daddy will *not* try to stop her.
9. Learn where the trap door is in the Evil Overlord's audience
chamber. Avoid standing there, especially when bad news is brought
to the Evil Overlord.
10. While the Evil Overlord is gloating over his anticipated success
in the venture he is about to launch, it is considered impolite to
ask "And if you fail?" You probably won't be flogged, maimed, or
killed for your temerity, but why risk it?
11. As soon as the evil lord has the hero in his power, seek the
nearest available escape route. The fewmets are about to hit the
windmill.
12. Learn to distinguish Heroes from Sidekicks. Heroes are usually
taller and more somber, while Sidekicks dress with more flair and
tell more jokes. Taking on the Hero when you only have enough
manpower/firepower to take on the Sidekick will earn you an all-
expenses-paid trip on Stygian Cruise Lines.
13. Never allow yourself to be provoked into doing anything stupid by
insults from the Hero or Sidekicks.
14. No matter how attractive the captured heroine is or how seductively
she bats her eyes, she really does not want to sleep with you. Do
not unlock the cell door.
15. If the heroes give you a chance to surrender or flee, take it.
16. If you surrender to the Hero, don't try to stab him when his back
is turned; the Sidekick will get you first.
17. If the seemingly helpless person you have just cornered is
confident and unafraid despite being outnumbered and surrounded,
you have encountered a Hero in disguise. Run while you still can.
18. If the Hero you are sent after dresses entirely in black, he is
even more dangerous than the Evil Overlord suspects; double all
requisitions for men and firepower.
19. Practice your "accidental" sword/gun dropping technique. It's the
only thing that can save you when the hero is winning.
II. Guidelines for Legion of Doom troops:
1. Before performing guard duty, familiarize yourself with the sound
of a tossed pebble, and learn to avoid being distracted by it.
2. When performing guard duty, do not stare continually in one
direction, but take a moment now and then to look around.
3. When you are fighting intruders, do not fight them quietly, but
yell "Intruder!" while you still have breath.
4. When issued armor or uniforms that contrast with the service
environment, respectfully inquire after more sensibly-colored
attire.
5. Get plenty of firearms practice.
6. Don't attack the hero alone or in pairs. The Evil Overlord hired a
million of you for a reason.
7. Never be the first one to charge the hero.
8. Exercise care in the abuse of oppressed peoples. Many farm
implements make effective weapons in the hands of a skilled
opponent. Some of those little old men can teach you a thing or two
about hand-to-hand, too.
III. Tips for evil cult members:
1. Pick one faith and stay with it. Dilettantism is the mark of an
amateur.
2. Familiarize yourself with the specifications for sacrificial
victims, and ensure that unacceptable substitutes cannot be
unexpectedly introduced into the ceremony. If the penalty for
not-to-specs work is death and/or mutilation, consider working
for a more fault-tolerant deity.
3. Avoid needless embarrassment. Practice the correct pronunciation
of your deity's name in the privacy of your own room before
chanting it in public. Flash cards are often helpful.
4. Before agreeing to impregnation by a supernatural being, investigate
the survival rate of the other women who have undergone the
procedure.
5. Never invoke anything bigger than your head.
6. Eschew deities whose followers are all young; such faith groups
usually employ an unpleasant retirement procedure.
7. Avoid all cabalistic jewelry over ten pounds in weight--it attracts
unwelcome attention from tourists, policemen, various supernatural
creatures, and can be downright dangerous during thunderstorms. Its
jingling also tends to warn the hero of your approach. It also
makes you resemble Mr. T, and nobody wants to join a religion he
belongs to.
8. Citronella candles may not be used in rituals. I cannot stress this
enough. Pastel colored candles in the shape of cute animals are
like direct sunlight to the Powers of Darkness.
9. If the spirit contacted during a seance begins offering financial
advice, you're dealing with a con artist, and not a genuine medium.
10. Always keep your kit with you: candles, chalk, incense, silver
knife, Thuggee cord, service revolver, garlic, Yellow Sign, cab
fare, and change.
11. Flourescent lighting is very annoying to most netherworldly
creatures.
12. When the Black Mass goes awry, stay away from the Evil Priest.
Enraged demons always go for the pompous.
13. Followers who have a speech impediment should be excused from
speaking parts in any and all ceremonies. The mispronunciation
of the deity's name can have catastrophic effects.
14. Plan ahead by selecting ceremonial robes that are easy to run in
while still affording ample concealment.
15. If the ritual site has some strange powder sprinkled around that
wasn't there the last time, postpone all ceremonies until the site
is verified.
16. When a religious artifact begins emitting light, CLOSE YOUR EYES.
Thousands of cult members could be saved every year if they
followed this simple safety tip.
17. When mutilating cattle, avoid the ones with testicles.
18. During ritual sacrificing, taking bits home for later is now
generally considered "bad form."
19. Blood tests are now required for all sacrificial victims before the
ritual. The effects of HIV+ offerings on the average malefic deity
have never been witnessed by anyone living, or even intact.
20. Contrary to historical belief, drugs and invocations do not mix.
When the ritual goes awry, it is vitally necessary to be able to
discern between the gibbering monstrosity to pump full of silver
bullets and the gibbering monstrosity that will fade away after a
few hours, some B complex, and a good hot bath.
21. Never play strip Tarot.
22. Piety and belief are powerful things, and few forces in nature, can
stand against one who is true to his faith, his god/goddess, and
the deal made in exchange for the soul. However, it is also true
that gods tend to side with the heaviest artillery, so be prepared
to change sides at the drop of a hat.
23. For those situations where a fresh, living, sacrifice is not
available, the lower ranks of demons can be fooled by microwaving
a previously frozen chunk of ex-victim and cleverly jiggling it.
However, a mock victim sculpted from SPAM is right out.
IV. Tips for the Evil Overlord's Wicked but Beautiful Daughter:
1. Find out all those lovely little family secrets so that the Hero
can never spring them on you.
2. Do not fall in love with the Hero.
3. If you do fall in love with the Hero, and decide to help him, do
not declare your intentions to Daddy. Daddy will clap you in
irons, pending your execution. The Hero will rescue you, but
having to be rescued is demeaning.
4. If the Hero takes you to his secret base, and once there tells all
about his plans, smile sweetly, leave, and find another man; this
Hero is obviously so stupid he will not be around for very long.
5. If any of Daddy's Evil Henchmen try to make a move on you, at
least maim them. While the encounter might be interesting, it
would set a bad precedent.
6. If you do fall in love with the Hero, and want him to love you
in return, do not use a drug concocted by a wizened old lady living
on the top of a mountain. If the hero is not blind, your natural
charms will be sufficient to win him over. If he does not, or
prefers the One True Love, then he obviously has rotten taste; find
someone better.
7. Do not wear dresses with high, fan-like collars. Keep your clothing
to close-fitting, simple little numbers that allow you to turn your
head to see what is behind you. If you have to wear a dress with
such a collar, there is an arcane device called a "mirror" that
allows you to see behind yourself.
8. Have some engineers install a hidden exit from the room where Daddy
imprisoned Mommy for the rest of her days after she displeased him.
9. Do not mistreat the populace. Let Daddy be the one to make enemies
of all the Heroes in the land.
10. If you have siblings, do not trust them. They'll only take advantage
of you. Of course if they're stupid enough to trust you, take
advantage of them.
11. If any of your siblings try to enlist your aid to overthrow Daddy,
smile, promise to think it over, and then turn them in. They're
either stupid (in which case the plot would certainly fail and
you'll all get caught), setting you up (in which case not turning
them in is a very bad idea), or they've turned Good (in which case
life under the new regime would be boring).
12. Laugh at all of the Sidekick's jokes, no matter how lame they are.
That way when you pretend to fall for him he will be more easily
fooled.
13. Rather than simply being an attractive stage prop, make sure you
know every detail of the running of the Evil Empire, so that if
anything unpleasant happens to Daddy, you will be able to take over
with minimal fuss. Then make sure that something unpleasant happens
to Daddy.
14. If you cannot decided between sleeping with the Hero and slowly
roasting him alive, postpone dealing with him until you have
clarified your emotions.
** David Armoza * email armoza@ait.nrl.navy.mil **
** Advanced Information Technology * PN #: (202)-767-3961 **
** Naval Research Laboratory - Code 5585 * FAX#: (202)-404-1189 **
** Washington, DC 20375-5337 * #include <stnd.disclaimer> **
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 10 Dec 1997 11:45:30 -0500
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
TRG> Actually, this is only one of what were originally two
TRG> (conflicting) answers. One somehow disappeared into the mists. Hmmm.
Actually, at first there was only one answer. Then Vox managed to get
Steve to make a 100% contradictory ruling.
The current version of the FAQ contains neither ruling, only Steve's last
words on the subject.
TRG> And actually, it's not as clear as it may seem. You may activate
TRG> the powers, but it does say only one attack (action). Is that to be
TRG> read only one attack power actually attacks?
Activating or deactivating a power is a 0-phase action (unless the power
has a limitation that requires more time). 0-phase actions may be
performed at the beginning and the middle of your action phase. One may
perform as many 0-phase actions as one desires (assuming one can spend the
END).
Making an attack is a half-phase action that ends your action phase.
Draw your own conclusions based on that.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
Mail-Copies-To: never
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X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 10 Dec 1997 11:49:47 -0500
Lines: 28
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
TRG> No matter which interpretation you use, which camp you side with,
TRG> running the limitation like that is just a plain old points crock.
TRG> Basically, you get a -1/2 on a power for absolutely no disadvantage,
TRG> save having to spend 1 END on another power for a 0 level. This means
TRG> there is no reason not to take every power linked.
I agree on this. Regardless of how you work Linked, the Linked power must
be used in proportion with the power to which it is Linked.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 10 Dec 1997 11:52:06 -0500
Lines: 27
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
TRG> There is no need for this, as Linkable would not be allowed. If
TRG> powers aren't linked, they are seperate powers. Two linked powers
TRG> become one metapower. There is no allowed in-between.
Why not? Champions allows one to create any effect one wants. If you
start adding arbitrary restrictions like this you lose exactly what makes
Champions better than anything else around.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 10 Dec 1997 12:04:47 -0500
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
TRG> Rat's comments should be seen as exactly that, his. He has his
TRG> own (very strong) predjudices. One of them is a dislike for Long and
TRG> everything he writes, no matter how useful and good. Take with a
TRG> (large) grain of salt.
Not true. I like the "Lightning Reflexes" pseudo-talent. It is much
cleaner than allowing the abort element on strike maneuver bases.
I find most of his other mechanics questionable at best. They frequently
work okay within extremely limited sets of circumstances, but fail
spectacularly in the general. I also have problems with his frequent use
of strangely limited powers to duplicate the effects of extant skills.
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\
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:59:11 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
Subject: Re: How do I buy these abilites??
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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X-UID: 167
> > Actually, FTL cannot be used within the atmosphere, according to the BBB.
> > Might I suggest using a form of Teleport, with the special effect/Limitation
> > of "Only along electrical currents?" Just a thought.
>
> So can we consider this an "official" ruling. <g>
>
> Anyway, that's a construct I used myself a few times. Once, I
> mixed it with a limitation for no control over destination as the
> character moved through power lines, grids, etc. Never knew exactly where
> he'd pop out.
I have to throw my hat in here to that restricting FTL to out of atmosphere
prevents several
comic book powers from being done in a reasonable cost within hero. It needs some
kind of in-atmosphere variation.
I liked Fuzion's Super-Sonic flight. Nice take from V&V. But more such
hyper-speed movement
abilities are needed.
--
Rook
Super Hero Links Page:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:59:12 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 166
> And by the same token, can I dismiss your opinions just by "warning"
> everyone that you have some very strong prejudices FOR Mr. Long? *Anyone's*
Hey. Actually, I do like what he's done for the system. I think
his contributions can be ranked only behind Allston's.
> opinions should be seen as "exactly that". Nobody on this list is putting a
> gun to the readers' head and trying to force a style of play.
No, but some novice who comes along and only sees one point of
view will be misguided. That's why we are all here to point out how wrong
each of the others is.
> Rat happens to be one of the more intelligent people on the list -- I end up
> on the opposite side of the fence from him on almost all the big debates
> here, but I'd still rather listen to him disagreeing with me than many
> people taking my side.
Oh, agreed. He's always sure to have the same arguments and same
points, but he supports them well. He's our Hero Fundamentalist voice.
>
> If you disagree with him, that's fine -- just present your own opinions. and
> maybe all of us here can learn something from them. But it's downright
> asinine and unnecessarily inflammatory to make a big production number out
> of letting everyone know what a dangerous influence he apparently is,
> pronouncing in great authoritarian tones how the poor fool managed to escape
> his chains again and post some madness before being caught and returned to
> his cell. :/
Hmmm. I rather like this approach, actually. It seems to fit
with Rat's "god has spoken" approach to anything revolving around Linked
or Steve Long.
> > By the same token, of course, Rat means to say that all Martial
> >maneuvers are just plain stupid. Buy combat skill levels and just be
> >happy.
>
> Or, he could just mean that unlike hand-to-hand combat, real-life ranged
> weapon "martial arts" simply do NOT break down into a maneuver-by-maneuver
> basis, and are therefore better represented by a single-skill approach such
> as combat levels.
Hmmm. Could be, but he didn't say that. He just said that they
are stupid and his logic would suggest HTH MA is stupid as well.
Personally, I find Ranged MAs to handle a few of the trickier areas to
handle, such as ranged trips.
> > That's what all maneuvers are anyway. There is just a large
> >pre-made list to allow for different flavor.
>
> Okay, this I agree with -- expanding the maneuver list is not a problem.
Whew. Glad to get agreed with on one point at least.
> What I did have a problem with is S.L. telling his readers not to *design*
> martial arts with maneuvers (such as Fast Strike and Martial Strike) that
> can be made to match each other with a couple combat levels, and further
> points out that this "problem" most often shows up when trying to model
> real-life combat styles. (Yeah, God forbid we should do something to match
> real life when it impedes point efficiency.)
Well, hmmm. As I can see it, Rat seemed to be arguing for the
same thing. However, I'll probably still be redundant because it just
*looks* cool to have so many different maneuvers with differing effects.
> AFAIK, Rat would not do that power because Rat is a HERO fundamentalist,
> i.e. he has actually read the rulebook and made an attempt to comprehend it.
Not in all cases. Some are perfectly "Fundy" but still raise
Rat's ire. I think some of it is personal. Rat doesn't want to use a
Long construction.
> Long, it too often seems, has not. In this case, it didn't seem like much
> of a problem to me -- since the bulk of the UMA is cribbed from Ninja HERO,
> you won't find too much out of line.
Long just is more liberal with his rules than Rat is, not a
problem on my end. The rules are there to enable any possible
construction, not to hinder construction.
> (For the REALLY munchkinoid
> constructions, one should check out -The Ultimate Mentalist- -- worth the
> money for the laugh value alone).
Actually, I find it one of my most useful books. More so even
than UMA. UMA vs Ninja Hero, you could get by with NH. UM vs well, maybe
Mystic Masters, well, no contest. UM brings up and clarifies a lot of
areas of under explained and under exampled rules. Does a good job too.
It also, for the record, makes most Mental Powers *less* effective with
its "different classes of minds" sections.
> P.S. Honest question, Tim -- this is not meant as a jibe or anything, I'm
> sincerely curious. Did you ever see a rules interpretation/alteration
> printed that you DIDN'T approve of?
Except for those in poorly edited books that were just plain
typos, not really. I've seen a few on the net and on this list with some
questionable EC use that I wouldn't allow, but that would just be a GM
call. Actually, I'm just about for any application of the rules -- with
the caveat that the GM allow it. Plain and simple, GM's call.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:05:18 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
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> 1) There's now a "Flash" element available to do poke-in-the-eye
> or earboxing maneuvers. Costs the same as NND; a good improvement
> (I feel icky making my players spend points for things that
> Joe Bloe can do).
Forgot about this. Even included a basic "eye-poke" in regular
"free" maneuvers. One of the best contributions of this book.
> 2) There's now a "Disable" element available which doesn't cost
> anything, and improves your chances of impairing or disabling
> the target. It struck me as possibly being broken, since the
> supposed "balancing limits" didn't seem all that limiting (for
> example, it's required to be aimed at a specific hit location,
> but it doesn't take any OCV penatly for a called shot).
O.K. Here's one I agreed with it's importance but quickly decided
not to allow in my campaigns. Too potentially unbalancing. But, I can
see some realistic and MA campaigns where this could be usefull.
> training (aforementioned archery) simply does not break up
> neatly into maneuvers like hand-to-hand fighting styles, so
> this just doesn't feel right. I'd probably stick with Combat
> Levels and called shots.
Well, the one thing I like is the nice ranged trips and disarms.
> missing. Some of these new martial arts are so thinly
> described, there's little point in including them; on the
> other hand, the section on Pentjak Silat is so broad as to
> make it a competitor in importance for Kung Fu.
I'll take all the MA styles I can, even if thinly described. If I
want to, I can get more info but it's always great to have choices for
your players.
> 5) There is LOTS and LOTS of padding. (Does anyone else feel
> like using Dim Mak on S.L. just to keep him from making
> *another* fictional style where every d*** maneuver is "The
> {adjective}{move} of {Name}"?)
I was chuckly alot over all this. Very funny and effectively
poking fun at some of the MA movie genre. Also some useful stuff for
villian organizations or heroic getaways.
-Tim Gilberg
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:22:14 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: TUSV: Sabotage
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Something occurred to me yesterday that should be in TUSV, but isn't in
the current manuscript: sabotage. This happens quite frequently in movies
and stuff, and so should have some rules covering it.
My problem is, I'm not sure how it should be handled.
What I'm leaning toward is this (to give a simplified version): The
saboteur decides what he wants to do to the vehicle, and the GM assigns an
appropriate Skill, just like a normal application. And, of course, there's
a difficulty penalty for what the saboteur is trying to do:
Disabling a Device: -1 per ten Active Points being shut off.
Planting a Device (such as a bomb or remote control): -1 per ten Active
Points being added.
Weakening a Device (such as Burnout Rolls, Extra Time Limitation, etc.):
-1 per -1/4 Limitation being imposed on a device.
Does anyone have any feedback or further suggestions? I haven't
dedicated anything to the actual manuscript yet (I'm still putting in stuff
based on the recent discussion on locks -- thanks gang!), so the section is
still open.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:30:33 EST
Subject: Re: Greetings
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< I'm going to have to agree with this myself. But I'll take it further than
that, you are more than welcome to send me ads provided you also carrying on
normal conversation and answer questions too. >>
Deal. ;) I'm doing the best I can. So far the questions have been
relatively easy to answer. The biggest problem I see so far is the confusion
over the role of the "flux" in the new campaign setting, but that's easy
enough to remedy.
Hey, would anyone here care to see the *revised* preview that I've mentioned
a time or two? Basically it's the final manuscript text of the first two
chapters. Slightly revised and updated, and hopefully a little clearer (re:
the flux).
<< I appreciate how you have entered the mailing list. From what I can tell,
you have done a great job in answering every e-mail you could. Thanks for
that. >>
My pleasure. I don't know how many fans are on this list, but I imagine
there are quite a few. If we can get the word to you folks, you should be able
to help us convert the uninformed in no time! <LOL>
Go forth, brothers, and teach the others of your land! Tell them that HS4 is
not dead. Nay, it but lives again! Hidden for all these months in a cave in
Aramathea! But it is come back to us, in the form of San Angelo! Reborn!
Arisen from the ashes of what was!
<< Remember for every one of us in here, there is often a whole gaming group
out there that we GM or talk with. So word from here does spread pretty far at
times. >>
Trying to blackmail us, eh? ;)
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:30:36 EST
Subject: Re: San Angelo (Re: Greetings)
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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First off, the name of the city is San Angelo, not San Angelino. ;)
Secondly, folks, you help us squash those INCORRECT rumors right away by NOT
quoting them and pasting them into your messages. For example, the whole
thread about "it doesn't allow you to do faeries..." garbage is simply
misinterpretation.
I am here to tell you right now that in our "official" published San Angelo
campaign, ANYTHING you want is possible: magic, dawrves, Atalntean princes,
aliens, vampires, whatever. In fact, right there in the preview it mentions
the non-linear temporal existence of the flux, and how its "introduction" to
the world could be responsible for Merlin and Dracula of ancient times!
So please, read it before you start spreading those comments that make other
uninformed readers go "Screw that. I'm not wasting my money if I can't play
faeries!"
Thanks. :)
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:30:41 EST
Subject: Re: Greetings
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< I downloaded SA:CoH and I liked it. >>
Thank you.
<< I would, of course, have to change a few things to make it fit my campaigns
based up here in the great frozen north (Canada). But then very few GMs ever
use a 'Vanilla' supplement straight out of the box. >>
That we do know, and we kept that in mind as the book was being designed.
There are quite a few "blanks" for the GM to fill in with elements from his
own campaign. Things like, say, two of the ten wealthiest people in San
Angelo, etc.
Btw, I would be interested in proposals for a supplement that was based in,
oh, say, Canada. So if anyone wants to send in a proposal to us, be my guest.
Keep in mind that we will want a mix of materials for the book: NPCs, gadgets,
plot hooks, source material, etc. It could even involve a fictional Canadian
city. ;)
<< From what I read it looks like a well designed and integrated whole, with
enough flexability to let me modify it to fit how I want my champaign to work.
>>
And that is EXACTLY what we are aiming to do. As another example, the sample
PC hero team (The Justice Foundation) are known in the campaign setting as the
"second string" team. Why? Because the MAIN hero team in the city are YOUR
heroes.
That's right. Your PCs are the top dog heroes in the city, and every one of
our books is going to make that assumption. So, no, we will NOT be featuring
the Justice Foundation heroes on every single book cover! <LOL>
<< I hope it will be available for electronic mail ordering, because I found
that a lot of stuff never makes it up here. For example, I had never even
heard of Heromaker software untill I got on the internet. >>
Well, TD Imports in Canada will be carrying it, so start bugging your game
retailer now! And for the record, and other Champions book you want to order
can be ordered through TD Imports as well. So don't let your retailer tell you
different! ;)
<< I have the goldrush games webpage on my netminder list, so I will be
checking out anything new as it happens. >>
Excellent!
<< BTW, Sorry to read about Tyson. That was a terrible thing to happen. >>
Thanks for the condolences. It's a tough time. First my grandmother passed
away, then I almost lost Marge in a car wreck, and then Tyson was killed. It's
been a crappy two months. Next year must be an awesome year, near as I can
figure.
Mark @ GRG
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:31:55 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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> I can see where the original poster got this idea, though. I think that
> older versions of Linked said that the Powers had to be used in proportion
> to each other, meaning that the 12d6 EB/3d6 Flash could be used at full
> power, or at 8d6 EB/2d6 Flash, or 6d6 EB/1 1/2d6 Flash, etc. That text
> didn't carry over, so a strict reading of the 4th Ed Linked Limitation
> could be interpreted as above.
Oh, I know it can be read that way, but there is no reason any
sane GM, no matter what camp he or she is in, should allow
non-proportional linked. It is just free points.
> > Does anyone know how to get a hold of Gazza, BTW. I miss his
> >commentary.
>
> Ditto! (He was also going to run a couple of the adventures from my
> website -- "Power Dreams" and "Arms Against the Dragon" -- and tell me how
> things went, and I always like concrete feedback on my material.)
He said hwe was off to do something but would be back in November
or December. Where is he.
Help us Obi-Wan-Gazza, you're our only hope.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:34:51 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
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> TRG> Actually, this is only one of what were originally two
> TRG> (conflicting) answers. One somehow disappeared into the mists. Hmmm.
>
> Actually, at first there was only one answer. Then Vox managed to get
> Steve to make a 100% contradictory ruling.
>
> The current version of the FAQ contains neither ruling, only Steve's last
> words on the subject.
Which I like, actually. Rules are optional. Works for me just
perfectly.
> Activating or deactivating a power is a 0-phase action (unless the power
> has a limitation that requires more time). 0-phase actions may be
> performed at the beginning and the middle of your action phase. One may
> perform as many 0-phase actions as one desires (assuming one can spend the
> END).
Right.
> Making an attack is a half-phase action that ends your action phase.
Uh-huh. And only one attack power in said attack action, the rest
are wasted.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:36:23 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
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> Not true. I like the "Lightning Reflexes" pseudo-talent. It is much
> cleaner than allowing the abort element on strike maneuver bases.
O.K. That's one at least.
> I find most of his other mechanics questionable at best. They frequently
> work okay within extremely limited sets of circumstances, but fail
> spectacularly in the general. I also have problems with his frequent use
> of strangely limited powers to duplicate the effects of extant skills.
I will, in general, take the skill as well but consider the
power-built skill to be able to do things the regular skill would find
impossible with incredibly large negative modifiers.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:38:23 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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> TRG> No matter which interpretation you use, which camp you side with,
> TRG> running the limitation like that is just a plain old points crock.
> TRG> Basically, you get a -1/2 on a power for absolutely no disadvantage,
> TRG> save having to spend 1 END on another power for a 0 level. This means
> TRG> there is no reason not to take every power linked.
>
> I agree on this. Regardless of how you work Linked, the Linked power must
> be used in proportion with the power to which it is Linked.
Oops. Be on the lookout, folks. You should be seeing Pigs
Flying, Icebergs Moving Through the Underworld, and Monkeys Coming From
Certain Anatomical Areas. Rat and I have agreed on two things in a row
here.
Anyway, glad to have some backup there, Rat. Linked needs
proportional, plain and simple.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:42:39 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
Subject: San Angelino Previews (Was Re: Greetings)
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> << I'm going to have to agree with this myself. But I'll take it further than
> that, you are more than welcome to send me ads provided you also carrying on
> normal conversation and answer questions too. >>
>
> Deal. ;) I'm doing the best I can. So far the questions have been
> relatively easy to answer. The biggest problem I see so far is the confusion
> over the role of the "flux" in the new campaign setting, but that's easy
> enough to remedy.
>
> Hey, would anyone here care to see the *revised* preview that I've mentioned
> a time or two? Basically it's the final manuscript text of the first two
> chapters. Slightly revised and updated, and hopefully a little clearer (re:
> the flux).
>
Yeah, I'd love to see what you've got.
Rook
Super Hero Links Page:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:44:44 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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> TRG> There is no need for this, as Linkable would not be allowed. If
> TRG> powers aren't linked, they are seperate powers. Two linked powers
> TRG> become one metapower. There is no allowed in-between.
>
> Why not? Champions allows one to create any effect one wants. If you
> start adding arbitrary restrictions like this you lose exactly what makes
> Champions better than anything else around.
Bully. It's like the argument many months back that a RKA Damage
Field would stop incoming bullets. Nope, buy another power. If you want
EB, Flash, and EB+Flash buy them as three seperate powers. Two powers
together are something entirely different than just two powers being used
together. They become a new MetaEffect. Not that you can't do it, you
just have to buy things seperately.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:54:27 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: San Angelo Ethnic makeup
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> << 1. What's the ethnic makeup? And don't just tell me 'everyone'. :) >>
> The ethnic make-up of what? Of the city? Of the NPCs appearing in the book?
> Of the characters in the illos?
Yeah, the city. hey, the NPC's too. I get tired of seeing mono-ethnic stuff. It
fitsif the location is mono-ethnic, but not in a place like New York or California.
> << This plays a major role in cultures and relations. Are the asian groups
> Chinese, Korean, Mhong, Philipino, Laotian, Vietnamese... >>
> Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes...
> << Are my hispanics Mexican, Mexican-American, Guatamalin, Columbian, Cuban
> (not likely on the west coast...), Peruvian... >>
> I don't think I'm following you here.
Hey, there's a dif. Just wanted to know if you knew that. I'm not asking for super
detail here,but I don't want to see em all get grouped into being a bunch of drunk
mexicans in the back of an old
pickup doing 35 on the freeway either. :) (Hey, it's a description I've heard used to
label anyone
speaking spanish, go figure...)
> << Are my caucasians WASP, Russian emmigrants, Irish, Italian... Are my blacks
> Carribean, Afro-American, African... Pakistani or Indian? >>
> We have a little of everything. Like I said, we tried to make San Angelo
> seem like a real city with real people. If you want exact demographics of our
> San Angelo I can dig them up for you. But I can tell you that if you are
> expecting a city with just "four colors" (white, black, brown and yellow)
> you're going to be very, very disappointed.
Actually, if it had 'just four colors', I'd be annoyed. I'd buy it, cause I'm used
to that levelof glossing over on what is a very sensitive issue in America, but I'd be
disapointed.
You go on to say things that make me feel as if you're giving it a good effort, if
that holds,
I'll be satisfied. Just as long as I don't get an X-men style treatment of it all,
with everyone walking around
acting 'kewl' calling each other something-san. :) And loads of out of date and
innacurate slang and
ethnic info.
Rook
Super Hero Links Page:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:04:26 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: San Angelo (Re: Greetings)
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> I am here to tell you right now that in our "official" published San Angelo
> campaign, ANYTHING you want is possible: magic, dawrves, Atalntean princes,
Oh yeah, but what about *Atlantean* princes, huh. <g>
-Tim Gilberg
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 20:28:56
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Mon, 08 Dec 1997 16:03:46 -0500, Urklore The Iron wrote:
>The link is a 1/2 disadvantage, but is it really?
CA NE VA PAS RECOMMENCER!
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:30:23 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 08:08 PM 12/10/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>> Depends on which construction. Some of Long's constructions are simply
>> broken.
>
> I really disagree with that statement. Heck, I actually see
>reason for that Focus rather than follower Computer construction.
I might have my reasons for mugging you, but it's still illegal. Broke is
broke is broke is broke. :/
>> Others are, on paper, legal but unnecessary (mostly the ones that
>> duplicate skill effects -- you're paying points for something that a
>> competent GM would allow the normal skill to do).
>
> Well, I think competent should be replaced by liberal there.
>There are some skill effects I will put about out of reach to normal
>skill. That's what the power-based skills are for.
I agree that there are some instances when I'd want to use a Power to
simulate a superhuman level of skill (the proverbial thief who can steal the
yolk from an egg without breaking the shell is NOT doing it with Sleight of
Hand). But many of the Dark Champions constructions don't seem to really
take into account what IS in reach for a normal skill.
>> there's a LOT of Long's bad habits at work again (the duplicate effects of
>> Psych Lims on Mind Control, the unnecessary changes to Mind Scan, and the
>> execrable Desolid and Invisibility constructions).
>
> One man's garbage is another's treasure. I like the Desol and
>Invis constructs. And the Mind Scan changes make sense to me. As for the
>Mental Combat maneuvers, well, I don't really like the ones in the book.
>I like Long's original ones better -- the ones in the book were from
>Peterson, I believe.
I didn't see a reason to break Mind Scan out of the pattern established by
the other Mental Powers; the biggest change (making it a Constant power)
seems to be another example of "I don't grok the original rule so I'll just
write on top of it".
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:30:25 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 09:27 PM 12/10/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>Is it? I get two different types of "damage" in a single attack. That is
>certainly more useful to me than an attack that has only one type of
>"damage".
Not when you consider that the odds of you having a given kind of attack are
roughly equivalent to the odds of your opponent having a given kind of
defense. Shifting attack types doesn't change the fact that you're taking
the whole pool of Active Points of the attack and applying it against two
different kinds of defenses, when either attack would be better served to
get the whole enchilada.
Think in terms of the most basic kinds of attacks: physical and energy.
Which is better, a 5d6 EB vs. PD linked to a 5d6 EB vs. ED, or a 10d6 EB vs.
one or the other form of defense?
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good |
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:30:27 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 09:36 PM 12/10/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>Go read the section on Presence Attacks, specifically the example of the
>guy blasting the tree, making a presence attack, then blasting the troll.
>
>Wonky or not, either the example in the BBB is wrong, or you are wrong.
>
>I am with the BBB on this one until someone from Hero Games comes out and
>states that the example is broken.
I'm saying BOTH examples are wrong, or at the very least vague and
badly-written (for example, it doesn't mention that the tree-blasting is in
the SAME phase as the PRE attack -- it could be a SPD 4 wizard against SPD 2
trolls).
==
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:30:29 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 10:21 PM 12/10/97 -0500, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>Ah, but knowing:
>
>A.) that the style 'exists' (even if only in the dubious credibility of Mr.
>Long - Jailhouse Rock indeed! What was wrong with 'dirty infighting'?)
>B.) where the style originates/who uses it (most of the descriptions give at
>least this much)
>
>You _can_ track down the interesting stuff in the library. If they had just
>stuck to a few arts and done them in detail, you wouldn't have that.
Considering that I work at a library (freelance), and just about LIVE there
the rest of my time, I'd get around to doing this anyways without Steve's
help. :]
To me, the idea that these things are "research pointers" smacks of a "pat"
defense for game products I've grown very annoyed by: the "well, if you
don't like it, you can make up something else yourself". Yes, this is true,
but ... I could have done that BEFORE I blew $15-30 on the lame duck product
in question. I shouldn't have to pay money for the privilege of doing my
own work.
Which is why I'm a heck of a lot more critical of stuff like this than
others might be -- I look at it from a sheer financial perspective. A page
I don't use is a percentage of the price lost to thin air. Mistakes can be
forgiven if it's just me "publishing" my work on the Web. When I start
charging for it, a higher percentage of it has to be good. (For the same
reason, I dislike high artwork percentages and space-wasteful formatting for
the sake of showing off one's typesetting prowess. Make it clean, legible,
and tasteful, then STOP.)
>Okay, it's a weak argument *^_^*. I would have _loved_ more individual style
>detail - especially on stuff the average westerner at least touches on -
>Karate, Kung Fu, Sumo, Fencing, Boxing, Pro Wrestling, Jui-Jitsu, Pentjak
>Silat, etc. Handing out a maneuvers list for stuff like Re-Efi Areh-Ehsee
>and Hisardut really was a waste of space (as were the fictional styles.
>Barf, though I did like Takijutsu, mostly for the nifty 'mystical' powers).
Is that the waterfall style? I liked the waterfall style, the spider style,
and the drunken clown style. Most of the others should have been taken out
and shot, preferably with cyanide bullets just to make sure.
But really, I think that's something missing from a LOT of martial arts
books in RPGs: the visuals. It's one thing to put down a list of maneuvers
for Capoeira, it's another thing entirely to see a jenga (sp?). Many
martial arts have very similar mechanical maneuvers, but look nothing alike
in use; if a GM wants to capture the feeling of those arts, he has to know
what that feeling IS, what the differences are.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good |
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:30:32 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 07:15 PM 12/10/97 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>Nice phrasing... makes one wonder exactly what Vox did to Steve to get him
>to make said ruling.:) ("Reverse that ruling or I'll make you throw out
>the Hero System for a fixed power list system and rework the Champions U
>to emulate a style of comics which not only sucks but is dying in the
>marketplace!" Oh wait... they actually _did_ that...)
Shhhh! You want me to get lynched, Trev??
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good |
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:30:34 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 12:43 AM 12/11/97 -0500, Tokyo Mark wrote:
>The fictional martial arts are a mixed bag, some are pretty good, some
>I'll never use. The real martial arts need a little more detail at
>times./ And many of them could have been left out totally (Jail House
>Rock, for example), while bigger name martial arts were left out. Russian
>Sambo is not a variation on amatuer wrestling, it has more in common with
>Jujutsu and seemingly would have merited a write up. And in pro wrestling
>Lucha Libre is about as far from real as pro wrestling gets.:)
It could be worse. The Street Fighter RPG equates Sambo with *professional*
wrestling. (Sorry, WW, there are no piledrivers in Sambo).
==
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good |
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 15:07:41 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: San Angelino Previews (Was Re: Greetings)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
>
> Yeah, I'd love to see what you've got.
>
Same.
-Tim Gilberg
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:44:03 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings
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At 01:30 PM 12/10/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< I'm going to have to agree with this myself. But I'll take it further
than
>that, you are more than welcome to send me ads provided you also carrying on
>normal conversation and answer questions too. >>
>
> Deal. ;) I'm doing the best I can. So far the questions have been
>relatively easy to answer. The biggest problem I see so far is the confusion
>over the role of the "flux" in the new campaign setting, but that's easy
>enough to remedy.
>
> Hey, would anyone here care to see the *revised* preview that I've
mentioned
>a time or two? Basically it's the final manuscript text of the first two
>chapters. Slightly revised and updated, and hopefully a little clearer (re:
>the flux).
I'd love to see it. (A word of advice, though: email it directly to
those who express interest, rather than to the list.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:47:06 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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At 01:31 PM 12/10/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> I can see where the original poster got this idea, though. I think that
>> older versions of Linked said that the Powers had to be used in proportion
>> to each other, meaning that the 12d6 EB/3d6 Flash could be used at full
>> power, or at 8d6 EB/2d6 Flash, or 6d6 EB/1 1/2d6 Flash, etc. That text
>> didn't carry over, so a strict reading of the 4th Ed Linked Limitation
>> could be interpreted as above.
>
> Oh, I know it can be read that way, but there is no reason any
>sane GM, no matter what camp he or she is in, should allow
>non-proportional linked. It is just free points.
100% agreed, here.
>> > Does anyone know how to get a hold of Gazza, BTW. I miss his
>> >commentary.
>>
>> Ditto! (He was also going to run a couple of the adventures from my
>> website -- "Power Dreams" and "Arms Against the Dragon" -- and tell me how
>> things went, and I always like concrete feedback on my material.)
>
> He said hwe was off to do something but would be back in November
>or December. Where is he.
>
> Help us Obi-Wan-Gazza, you're our only hope.
"Come back to the Hero Mailing List, Gary Sturgess, Gary Sturgess."
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 10 Dec 1997 17:03:44 -0500
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
>> Making an attack is a half-phase action that ends your action phase.
TRG> Uh-huh. And only one attack power
There are no such things as "attack powers".
TRG> in said attack action, the rest are wasted.
The BBB does not say that. What it says is:
* Activating a power is a 0-phase action. You may perform as many 0-phase
actions during your action phase as you desire, at the beginning and
middle of your action phase.
* Making an attack is a half-phase action and ends your action phase.
Now, follow closely, because I am going to be obnoxiously pedantic about
timing, because it is critical to understanding how powers function.
Activation of a power -- the type of power is unqualified so it applies to
all powers -- is a 0-phase action. Making an attack is a half-phase action
that ends your action phase. 0-phase actions may be performed only before
the start of your first half-phase action and between the end of your first
half-phase action and the beginning of your second half-phase action (this
distinguishes 0-phase actions from "no time" actions, which may be
performed at any time during your action phase). Attack actions may be
performed only as a half-phase action.
It is Segment 12, the start of combat. I want to fly up near you and tag
you with my Energy Blast. At the start of my action phase I activate my
Flight and my Force Field (just in case). I use my first half-phase action
to move. I activate my Energy Blast between my first and second half-phase
actions as a 0-phase action. I use my second half-phase action to attack
you with my Energy Blast.
If there is a fault in this timing, please cite chapter and verse from the
BBB that shows it.
A slight modification: instead of just activating my Energy Blast between
my two half-phase actions, I want to activate my Flash as well. No
problem: activation of a power is a 0-phase action, and I may perform as
many as I wish at that point during my action phase. I have not made an
attack action, yet, because my second half-phase action has not began.
So now a question: if I can use both my Flight and Force Field together
during my first half-phase action, and if I can use my Force Field and
Energy Blast together during my second half-phase action, where in the BBB
does it prohibit me from using my Force Field, Energy Blast and Flash
together during my second half-phase action? No rhetoric, please. I am
using the BBB as the canonical reference to support my position; please
have the courtesy to do the same.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 10 Dec 1997 17:09:53 -0500
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
TRG> Bully. It's like the argument many months back that a RKA Damage
TRG> Field would stop incoming bullets. Nope, buy another power. If you want
TRG> EB, Flash, and EB+Flash buy them as three seperate powers. Two powers
TRG> together are something entirely different than just two powers being used
TRG> together. They become a new MetaEffect. Not that you can't do it, you
TRG> just have to buy things seperately.
Then what is the purpose of Linked besides free points? If smashing two
powers together creates a new power, and this is the normal case for
powers (and this is not an unreasonable way to do things) then Linked gives
you nothing that the powers in question could not normally do.
If this is not the normal case, then what you describe Linked doing is an
advantage, not a limitation. An Energy Blast and a Flash that can be used
together is more useful than an Energy Blast and a Flash that cannot.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 10 Dec 1997 17:11:02 -0500
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
TRG> I will, in general, take the skill as well but consider the
TRG> power-built skill to be able to do things the regular skill would find
TRG> impossible with incredibly large negative modifiers.
Desolidification as a "Dodge" maneuver.
The problems with this are so numerous that anyone with any understanding
of the mechanics should see them.
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:47:11 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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> At 01:30 PM 12/10/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
> > And that is EXACTLY what we are aiming to do. As another example, the
> > sample PC hero team (The Justice Foundation) are known in the campaign
> > setting as the "second string" team. Why? Because the MAIN hero team in
> > the city are YOUR heroes.
> >
> > That's right. Your PCs are the top dog heroes in the city, and every one
> > of our books is going to make that assumption. So, no, we will NOT be
> > featuring the Justice Foundation heroes on every single book cover! <LOL>
>
> THANK YOU! THANK YOU! Heaven and the Christmastime be praised!
>
Agreed.
This is a major problem of almost EVERY RPG that has a 'house campaign world'.
Heck, some of them like Heavy Gear and TORG had it built in to so heavy a
degree that they become 'limited time only' RPG's.
> Seriously, this was always something that annoyed me about previous 4E
> products, where they advanced the timeline on their own schedule and assumed
> that the Champions (or whatever other hero group the author liked best) have
> already run through all their modules. The more books get published, the
> further "behind" your campaign becomes, diverging further and further from
> the universe until you're rewriting every supplement you buy practically
> from scratch.
>
Yeah, I noticed that in 'Champions Universe' they obsoleted a lot
of the old modules by stating that "The Champions had done it already".
This things work best when suppliments are as non-campaign
intrusive as possible. Otherwise you have to do major rewrites to use
them. Once you have to do that you're better off just using home-made
stuff.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:50:10 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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X-UID: 30
On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
> << So it's a fictional city. Would you say it's got a more Marvel, DC, or
> Image feel to it? When I think fictional cities my mind thinks 4-color DC. >>
>
> That's a really tough question for me to answer, because I have not been
> heavy into reading comics for some time. Probably the best answer I could give
> (or the best comparison, rather) is that it is a lot like Astro City.
Hmm. For somebody who doesn't read much comics, you certainly know the
right name to drop to get a positive response.:)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:51:31 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
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X-UID: 24
On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
> << Okies. . maybe a specific url is in order?>>
>
> Sorry about that. I'm used to my sig being posted as in the newsgroups. :D
Well, setting up your e-mail .sig _shouldn't_ be any different/more
difficult than setting up your Usenet .sig... but then, I see you're on
AOL, so who knows?
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 08:53:04 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
Subject: Re: San Angelo (Re: Greetings)
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 01:30 PM 12/10/97 -0500, GoldRushG wrote:
> First off, the name of the city is San Angelo, not San Angelino. ;)
>
> Secondly, folks, you help us squash those INCORRECT rumors right away by NOT
>quoting them and pasting them into your messages. For example, the whole
>thread about "it doesn't allow you to do faeries..." garbage is simply
>misinterpretation.
>
> I am here to tell you right now that in our "official" published San Angelo
>campaign, ANYTHING you want is possible: magic, dawrves, Atalntean princes,
>aliens, vampires, whatever. In fact, right there in the preview it mentions
>the non-linear temporal existence of the flux, and how its "introduction" to
>the world could be responsible for Merlin and Dracula of ancient times!
>
> So please, read it before you start spreading those comments that make other
>uninformed readers go "Screw that. I'm not wasting my money if I can't play
>faeries!"
>
> Thanks. :)
>
> Mark @ GRG
>
Okie-dokey. I assumed this wuz the case, and in fact a good general theme for
powers is useful- for instance, how do adjustment powers and supresses work?
One possibility is that they effect heros at a point of 'grand unification',
although i understand that the flux is meant to be more in the background.
I actually think that after years of. . um. . shall we say rather generic
matirial, people might need a bit of time to gtet back to grips with some
actual compaign concepts. . . give them three, maybe four hours *lol*
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:54:45 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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X-UID: 28
On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> > None of the above. I don't know about you guys, by feeling is that more
> > Hero-sympathetic people in WotC is a *good* thing. Shadis has already run an
> > article for AD&D. I would say that times are changing, and for the better. Who
> > knows. Perhaps AD&D --> Fuzion --> Hero System conversions are coming down the
> > pike? No secret info, just speculation.
>
> With the aquisition of TSR, WOTC is a financial monster.
Had been for some time; buying TSR just made it obvious.
> Still doesn't mean I have to buy their cards or consider Shadis to be the
> last word on gaming. OTOH, good, non-biased exposure for the best universal
> system on the market is cool by me.
What has Shadis to do with it? Did WotC buy them too?
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:06:20 +1000
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At 01:30 PM 12/10/97 -0500, GoldRushG wrote:
><< I downloaded SA:CoH and I liked it. >>
>
> Thank you.
>
><< I would, of course, have to change a few things to make it fit my campaigns
>based up here in the great frozen north (Canada). But then very few GMs ever
>use a 'Vanilla' supplement straight out of the box. >>
>
> That we do know, and we kept that in mind as the book was being designed.
>There are quite a few "blanks" for the GM to fill in with elements from his
>own campaign. Things like, say, two of the ten wealthiest people in San
>Angelo, etc.
>
I think that's a much better approach than just 'leaving stuff out'
so to speak. .
> Btw, I would be interested in proposals for a supplement that was based in,
>oh, say, Canada. So if anyone wants to send in a proposal to us, be my guest.
>Keep in mind that we will want a mix of materials for the book: NPCs, gadgets,
>plot hooks, source material, etc. It could even involve a fictional Canadian
>city. ;)
>
Is there any particular addy that proposals should be sent to? or is smail
preferable?
><< From what I read it looks like a well designed and integrated whole, with
>enough flexability to let me modify it to fit how I want my champaign to work.
>>>
>
> And that is EXACTLY what we are aiming to do. As another example, the sample
>PC hero team (The Justice Foundation) are known in the campaign setting as the
>"second string" team. Why? Because the MAIN hero team in the city are YOUR
>heroes.
>
hooray! *g*
> That's right. Your PCs are the top dog heroes in the city, and every one of
>our books is going to make that assumption. So, no, we will NOT be featuring
>the Justice Foundation heroes on every single book cover! <LOL>
>
awww. . i was kinda looking forward to seeing an axe-wielding
new zelander getting his butt kicked by 60 different villans *j/k*
><< I hope it will be available for electronic mail ordering, because I found
>that a lot of stuff never makes it up here. For example, I had never even
>heard of Heromaker software untill I got on the internet. >>
>
> Well, TD Imports in Canada will be carrying it, so start bugging your game
>retailer now! And for the record, and other Champions book you want to order
>can be ordered through TD Imports as well. So don't let your retailer tell you
>different! ;)
>
Hmmm, any plans to go overseas? Australia, maybe? *g* I expect it'd
be quite a stretch. .. . .
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:08:58 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: How do I buy these abilites??
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On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, Case wrote:
>
> Problem (a):
> 'Aperion Negative' is a character I created who has the ability to
> travel along electrical current. While in this energy form, he can (a) use
> all of his electronic-based skills, like computer programming (like being in
> cyberspace), security systems, etc (b) travel FTL, (c) he can even 'jump'
> into a focus if someone hits him with an energy beam or flash. When you
> think about it, this is an incredibly powerful ability! But I really think
> I botched on how I bought the ability- I bought FTL with the -3/4 limitation
> "only on energy currents".
FTL can't be used to travel in the atmosphere. The BBB may have a special
effects-oriented explanation (I don't recall off-hand), but IMO the real
reason is simply that the base cost of FTL is way, way too cheap for
intraplanetary travel. FTL is supposed to be a plot device power like
Extra-Dimensional Movement, whose function is to enable access to vistas
the characters couldn't otherwise reach.
> Anybody have any ideas how I can make him truly 'street legal'? What's he
> missing? Shrinking?
Well, Desolid seems like a good choice for the base effect. Tack on
high-speed Flight, Linked to Desolid(-1/2), Only on energy currents
(-whatever, I'm not sure what value I'd assign). To handle the electronics
thing, buy Affects Real World on his STR (this is the standard way to
allow a character to manipulate objects while Desolid), and put a
Limitation on the Affects Real World Advantage: "only for manipulating
electronic devices".
> (b) If humans run at 6 hexes per phase in Champions, and real humans run
> 18-22mph (is that right anybody?), how many hexes do gazelle run if they run
> 35 mph?
Based on your figures, 10"/phase or so, assuming they have the same SPD.
There's a chart in the section on "Movement" that gives conversion between
inches/turn and kph (and I believe mph as well) that you can use to check
for sure.
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:11:52 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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>
> Then what is the purpose of Linked besides free points? If smashing two
> powers together creates a new power, and this is the normal case for
> powers (and this is not an unreasonable way to do things) then Linked gives
> you nothing that the powers in question could not normally do.
Hmmm. Yes, except smashing two together would be a disadvantage
as spending the same points on one power would be more efficient.
> If this is not the normal case, then what you describe Linked doing is an
> advantage, not a limitation. An Energy Blast and a Flash that can be used
> together is more useful than an Energy Blast and a Flash that cannot.
But they can't be just "used together". They are seperate powers
with seperate effects -- they don't just go together. To do that requires
spending *more* points above and beyond those two to buy a new power with
the two tied together. As this is less effective than any one power, it
can have the linked disadvantage.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:14:13 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
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> TRG> I will, in general, take the skill as well but consider the
> TRG> power-built skill to be able to do things the regular skill would find
> TRG> impossible with incredibly large negative modifiers.
>
> Desolidification as a "Dodge" maneuver.
A great construction, BTW, as Desol is the only way in Hero to
make one totally impervious. (To all but a select group of attacks)
> The problems with this are so numerous that anyone with any understanding
> of the mechanics should see them.
No, tell me. I don't see them. It seems to work fine here.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:15:19 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
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On 10 Dec 1997, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> >>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
>
> TRG> Actually, this is only one of what were originally two
> TRG> (conflicting) answers. One somehow disappeared into the mists. Hmmm.
>
> Actually, at first there was only one answer. Then Vox managed to get
> Steve to make a 100% contradictory ruling.
Nice phrasing... makes one wonder exactly what Vox did to Steve to get him
to make said ruling.:) ("Reverse that ruling or I'll make you throw out
the Hero System for a fixed power list system and rework the Champions U
to emulate a style of comics which not only sucks but is dying in the
marketplace!" Oh wait... they actually _did_ that...)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:17:59 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Greetings
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On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
> And that is EXACTLY what we are aiming to do. As another example, the sample
> PC hero team (The Justice Foundation) are known in the campaign setting as the
> "second string" team. Why? Because the MAIN hero team in the city are YOUR
> heroes.
Funny... I generally prefer to have the PCs be a mid-level hero group.
The X-Men rather than the Avengers, so to speak. (Well, without the
pretension and angst.:))
Mind you, I don't think this would be particularly difficult to change.
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:19:41 +1000
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Subject: Re: San Angelino Previews (Was Re: Greetings)
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At 03:07 PM 12/10/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>>
>> Yeah, I'd love to see what you've got.
>>
>
>
> Same.
>
>
> -Tim Gilberg
>
>
me too! i assumed there wuz an ur, or maybe just txt?
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:43:18 +1000
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Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
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At 05:14 PM 12/10/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> TRG> I will, in general, take the skill as well but consider the
>> TRG> power-built skill to be able to do things the regular skill would find
>> TRG> impossible with incredibly large negative modifiers.
>>
>> Desolidification as a "Dodge" maneuver.
>
> A great construction, BTW, as Desol is the only way in Hero to
>make one totally impervious. (To all but a select group of attacks)
>
>> The problems with this are so numerous that anyone with any understanding
>> of the mechanics should see them.
>
> No, tell me. I don't see them. It seems to work fine here.
>
>
> -Tim Gilberg
>
>
powers bought as martial arts 'skill' are deffinintly th way to go. . .
on several martial ars guys i've had, spd and dex drains work well
as join-breaks and such. .. I think trying to make hero a 'skill-based'
system interms of impressive effects is a bad idea. Instead,
accept that the 'no powers' note for heroic characters is a *guide*,
not a law.
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: San Angelo (Re: Greetings)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 23:51:23 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> > Secondly, folks, you help us squash those INCORRECT rumors right away by NOT
> >quoting them and pasting them into your messages. For example, the whole
> >thread about "it doesn't allow you to do faeries..." garbage is simply
> >misinterpretation.
> >
> Okie-dokey. I assumed this wuz the case, and in fact a good general theme for
> powers is useful- for instance, how do adjustment powers and supresses work?
Magic Pixie dust?
Pheromone based horomones?
Mass-Hallucinations?
Tapping into the greater-subconscious?
Toon-Powers?
Reashaping reality to fit your model of it?
'scaring' the DNA into reforming itself?
Act's of god?
I can come up with millions of special effects behind adjustment
powers.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:57:51 -0500
From: "Aldo J. Regalado" <aregalad@miami.edu>
Subject: Re: San Angelino Previews (Was Re: Greetings)
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> >> Yeah, I'd love to see what you've got.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Same.
> >
> >
> > -Tim Gilberg
> >
> >
>
> me too! i assumed there wuz an ur, or maybe just txt?
Count me in!
Dragonfly
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: nuts playing wiers stuff (Re: San Angelo)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:36:52 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> >> So please, read it before you start spreading those comments that make
> >> other uninformed readers go "Screw that. I'm not wasting my money if I
> >> can't play faeries!"
> >
> >Screw that! I'm not wasting my money if it lets some nut play faeries!
> >
> >(Sorry -- had to say it. ;])
> >
>
> '''seriously''' though, after i started a hero game with some
> friends i had to ban faries and other goofy sorts. You know
> the drill: one wanted to play a vorpal bunny, another a
> supra-lucky dumb blonde, another wanted to convert his
> fairy over from nexus-
>
> That was the worst ofender, a completly indestructable fairy
> who could not comprehend violence or conflict of any sort.
> He just stood around thanking people for the 'heavy presents'
> they kept giving him (i.e. lead!)
>
Sounds to me like your players wanted a more humorous game
than you were giving them.
But seriously, what's wrong with a faerie? The faerie realm has
long been a staple of both the fantasy and super genres.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:44:24 -0800
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger)
Subject: Re[2]: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
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Vox wrote:
>(For the REALLY munchkinoid constructions, one should check out -The
>Ultimate Mentalist- -- worth the money for the laugh value alone).
For those of us out of the know, what was so bad about UM? The mental
maneuvers seem a little pointless, but everything else seemed ok.
Richard
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Mail-Copies-To: never
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>>>>> "VL" == Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> writes:
VL> At 05:03 PM 12/10/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>> There are no such things as "attack powers".
VL> I don't think the book backs you here, Rat.
VL> On page 155, they equate certain powers with attacks ("OTHER ATTACKS ...
VL> This Maneuver applies to any other attack not listed, like Energy Blast,
VL> Entangle, Flash, Power Drain, and so on").
They are powers that may be used to make attacks, but that is not all they
can do. There is no power in the book that is exclusively used to make
attacks. At the very least they can be used as part of a presence attack,
which does not constitute an attack action and no attack roll is required.
Force Wall may be used either offensively, requiring an attack roll and an
attack action, or defensively, without either.
[...]
>> It is Segment 12, the start of combat. I want to fly up near you and
>> tag you with my Energy Blast. At the start of my action phase I
>> activate my Flight and my Force Field (just in case). I use my first
>> half-phase action to move. I activate my Energy Blast between my first
>> and second half-phase actions as a 0-phase action. I use my second
>> half-phase action to attack you with my Energy Blast.
VL> Nope. The problem is, Energy Blast requires more than a 0-Phase action
VL> to activate. It requires a 0-Phase action AND AN ATTACK ROLL to
VL> activate.
It requires a half-phase action and an attack roll to attack with it, but
it is still a power, and powers require a 0-phase action to activate unless
they have the Extra Time Limitation. "Activate a power" does not equate to
"make an attack" anywhere in the BBB. They cannot be equivalent because
0-phase and half-phase actions occour at different times during one's
action phase.
VL> You can't use EB without the attack roll,
Sure you can. Fire it in the air as part of a presence attack. It falls
under "demonstration of a power".
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
>> The problems with this are so numerous that anyone with any understanding
>> of the mechanics should see them.
TRG> No, tell me. I don't see them. It seems to work fine here.
Case in point.
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:59:27 -0500 (EST)
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Computer Questions
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I have constructed the base statistics for a computer. It is
a normal computer, not an AI.
I would like to give the computer some Disadvantages to lower
it's cost. However, I've seen conflicting information in regards to
how computers are handled in HERO.
On a chart labeled General Computer Information in Champions it
states:
Normal Computers have:
...
3) No Psychological Disadvantages
Under the section 'Normal Computers,' however, it states:
... They cannot have Disadvantages.
In the only other Champions book I have acquired, 'Underworld Enemies,'
the write up includes the following for a Normal Computer known as
'The Gallows' (pg. 44):
Disadvantages
20 | Physical Limitation: Must obey creator's orders
20 | Physical Limitation: Computer
20 | Distinctive Features: Computer (Not Conc, Major Reaction)
10 | DNPC: Creator (As Powerful), 14-
You assistance would be greatly appreciated. Reference to other
computers in HERO and how they are normally dealt with would be greatly
appreciated.
Thank you.
Jason
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:00:15 +1000
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Subject: nuts playing wiers stuff (Re: San Angelo)
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At 08:27 AM 12/10/97 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote:
>At 01:30 PM 12/10/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
>> So please, read it before you start spreading those comments that make
>> other uninformed readers go "Screw that. I'm not wasting my money if I
>> can't play faeries!"
>
>Screw that! I'm not wasting my money if it lets some nut play faeries!
>
>(Sorry -- had to say it. ;])
>
'''seriously''' though, after i started a hero game with some
friends i had to ban faries and other goofy sorts. You know
the drill: one wanted to play a vorpal bunny, another a
supra-lucky dumb blonde, another wanted to convert his
fairy over from nexus-
That was the worst ofender, a completly indestructable fairy
who could not comprehend violence or conflict of any sort.
He just stood around thanking people for the 'heavy presents'
they kept giving him (i.e. lead!)
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:46:55 +1000
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Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
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At 08:27 AM 12/10/97 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote:
>I'd like to clarify: I did NOT think this was a bad /mechanic/, I just
>thought he was insane to give it away for no extra points. A bone-breaking
>or joint-spraining maneuver should be at least a LITTLE more expensive than
>just striking someone outright.
>
I usually use a drain or transform.
>> I'll take all the MA styles I can, even if thinly described. If I
>>want to, I can get more info but it's always great to have choices for
>>your players.
>
>If I have to go running to the library for information already, it's only a
>smidgen more effort to put the style together myself. This isn't Palladium
>-- martial arts don't require a heck of a lot of work to build, especially
>if you're just putting together the pre-done maneuvers like "Martial
>Strike". I REALLY think Long would have been doing the HERO market a favor
>by, say, dropping half of his fictional styles in favor of a little more
>detail on the flavor and appearance of the real-life styles. Knowing the
>game mechanics of Than Vo Dao or Re-Efi Areh Ehsee does me little to no good
>without that material -- if I can't describe to my players how an NPC with
>this style is moving and fighting, I can't really get effective use out of
>that art.
>
Actually, i think hero products shoul steer clear from mechanics additions
altogether and supply background, instead. Martial arts descriptions
are a good example. .
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:52:31 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
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> powers bought as martial arts 'skill' are deffinintly th way to go. . .
> on several martial ars guys i've had, spd and dex drains work well
> as join-breaks and such. .. I think trying to make hero a 'skill-based'
Hmmm. But those drains would need *massive* amounts of increased
time to be realistic. I'd rather use the disbling rules and a nice Joint
Breaking HKA.
-Tim Gilberg
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:53:02 +1000
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Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
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At 07:47 PM 12/10/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
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>>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
>
>>> The problems with this are so numerous that anyone with any understanding
>>> of the mechanics should see them.
>
>TRG> No, tell me. I don't see them. It seems to work fine here.
>
>Case in point.
>
Okay. . . "The problem with rat's argument is so obvious that only
a raving lunatic would not disagree with him". *j/k*
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>--
>Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
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>
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:55:43 +1000
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Subject: Re: Computer Questions
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At 07:59 PM 12/10/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
> I have constructed the base statistics for a computer. It is
>a normal computer, not an AI.
> I would like to give the computer some Disadvantages to lower
>it's cost. However, I've seen conflicting information in regards to
>how computers are handled in HERO.
> On a chart labeled General Computer Information in Champions it
>states:
> Normal Computers have:
> ...
> 3) No Psychological Disadvantages
>
> Under the section 'Normal Computers,' however, it states:
> ... They cannot have Disadvantages.
>
> In the only other Champions book I have acquired, 'Underworld Enemies,'
>the write up includes the following for a Normal Computer known as
>'The Gallows' (pg. 44):
> Disadvantages
> 20 | Physical Limitation: Must obey creator's orders
> 20 | Physical Limitation: Computer
> 20 | Distinctive Features: Computer (Not Conc, Major Reaction)
> 10 | DNPC: Creator (As Powerful), 14-
>
> You assistance would be greatly appreciated. Reference to other
>computers in HERO and how they are normally dealt with would be greatly
>appreciated.
> Thank you.
> Jason
>
Well, usually you can buy phys lims to represent faults *goes off if
someone bumps the screen, keyboard locks up, ect) and 'psys lims'
should be done as phys lims. .. after all, software ain't wetware.
PS: not that kind of wetware. . . or THAT kind of wetware. .. or-
oh, forget it *g*
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:08:01 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
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> > Hey. Actually, I do like what he's done for the system. I think
> > his contributions can be ranked only behind Allston's.
>
> In magnitude, yes, but only as an absolute value calculation. :]
Now, now.
> 1) The "do what you want, it's your campaign" response. Most of
> the people I know take this as a cop-out, even given that it's
> now Hero Games corporate policy.
>
> 2) The exact, by-the-book, "fundamentalist" answer. That's all
> Rat (or, for that matter, me, really) does when he responds --
> he gives what he thinks is the best answer possible taken from
> the book.
Well, I'll offer a third "optional" rules-based construction,
based on things like the HSAs, NH, and the Ultimate Books.
> > Hmmm. I rather like this approach, actually. It seems to fit >with
> Rat's "god has spoken" approach to anything revolving around Linked >or
> Steve Long.
>
> As opposed to your own "Long has spoken" approach? :]
Now that's not fair. I have my own constructs, some of which
agree with Long, some don't. I don't claim to be "The Truth", however,
which I see Rat doing, or seeming to do, quite often. I will lend a
strong voice against him, but I feel obligated as Gazza's not around to do
it. He filled that role back when he was around.
> Depends on which construction. Some of Long's constructions are simply
> broken.
I really disagree with that statement. Heck, I actually see
reason for that Focus rather than follower Computer construction.
> Others are, on paper, legal but unnecessary (mostly the ones that
> duplicate skill effects -- you're paying points for something that a
> competent GM would allow the normal skill to do).
Well, I think competent should be replaced by liberal there.
There are some skill effects I will put about out of reach to normal
skill. That's what the power-based skills are for.
> As I've mentioned before (in a discussion on Dark Champions), the problem is
> not HOW liberal Long is, but WHEN. He resorts to "liberal" (or, as Sean
> Fannon might put it, "interesting") constructions that bend or even outright
> break the BBB rules WHEN HE DIDN'T HAVE TO. I know you think the majority
> of these cases amount to his intent to somehow simulate the genre better,
> but if he really thinks the
More like rules modifications, and they don't actually break BBB
construction, just apply it in new ways.
> skills (Veil, Cloak, and Facade). But really, GURPS Psionics is a superior
> supplement -- FOR HERO -- in terms of campaign material and ideas, and
Hmmm. Well, I didn't really want campaign material, I wanted
clarified and expanded Hero mental rules. I got them, and was quite
happy.
> there's a LOT of Long's bad habits at work again (the duplicate effects of
> Psych Lims on Mind Control, the unnecessary changes to Mind Scan, and the
> execrable Desolid and Invisibility constructions).
One man's garbage is another's treasure. I like the Desol and
Invis constructs. And the Mind Scan changes make sense to me. As for the
Mental Combat maneuvers, well, I don't really like the ones in the book.
I like Long's original ones better -- the ones in the book were from
Peterson, I believe.
> On the other hand, as I've mentioned before, the bit where the book claims
> to be a universal gaming supplement rather than a HERO sourcebook is a laugh
> and a half.
Oh, quite. But that was of course thrown in by Hero in an attempt
to get more sales. They can try all they want, I don't mind.
-Tim Gilberg
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: How do I buy these abilites??
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 02:15:10 +0000 (GMT)
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>
> << I have to throw my hat in here to that restricting FTL to out of atmosphere
> prevents several comic book powers from being done in a reasonable cost within
> hero. It needs some kind of in-atmosphere variation.>>
>
> I agree totally. Perhaps this is something that could be addressed if we
> publish a 5th Edition? Or am I opening a new can of worms? ;)
>
> Mark @ GRG
>
GOTCHA! :)
Heh...
heh heh...
He's said it might happen. And he's opened the door to ideas for what
it might have. I'd post mine if I hadn't just done it two weeks ago.
Maybe I should add it to my website under a 'wishful thinking'
section. :) (Ok, so I don't believe it will see the light of day for
some time, but I can hope.)
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:17:40 +1000
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Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
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At 07:52 PM 12/10/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>
>> powers bought as martial arts 'skill' are deffinintly th way to go. . .
>> on several martial ars guys i've had, spd and dex drains work well
>> as join-breaks and such. .. I think trying to make hero a 'skill-based'
>
> Hmmm. But those drains would need *massive* amounts of increased
>time to be realistic. I'd rather use the disbling rules and a nice Joint
>Breaking HKA.
>
> -Tim Gilberg
well, why not transform? and if yor going to go all the way, most of your
opponents will either be
A) tough enough to avoid the worst of the injury- defined as both
having higher stats *and* getting points back kinda quickly, or
B) about to have their heads stomped on as soon as you get them to 0 spd.
I'd rather stick to the basic system than add etra bits.. .
>
>
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 02:25:59 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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>
> I have a question for the masses, though. Would anyone like to see more
> "Cardboard Heroes" type of products? I don't think it would be too difficult
> to do, even as a one sheet insert in a book or as a one sheet tear-out.
> Thoughts?
>
YES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I see this one come up all the time in chat groups, gurps forums,
hero forums, and even in the stores.
\ / |------ /----\
\ / | |
\ / |___ \---\
| | |
| | /
| |------ \---/
(Is that clear enough?)
One really good idea from V&V is the idea of having all the NPC's
from each book on a carboard insert. Add a few blank ones for people to
do up PC's or whatever; and you're set to go.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
TRG> Hmmm. Yes, except smashing two together would be a disadvantage
TRG> as spending the same points on one power would be more efficient.
Is it? I get two different types of "damage" in a single attack. That is
certainly more useful to me than an attack that has only one type of
"damage".
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
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>>>>> "VL" == Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> writes:
VL> Sounds good, except that it doesn't fit the description of the power.
VL> p. 65: "A character with this Standard Power can attack at range.
VL> To use an Energy Blast, the character states his target and makes an
VL> Attack Roll." Seems pretty straightforward -- a use of energy blast IS
VL> an attack, and requires an Attack Roll.
Go read the section on Presence Attacks, specifically the example of the
guy blasting the tree, making a presence attack, then blasting the troll.
Wonky or not, either the example in the BBB is wrong, or you are wrong.
I am with the BBB on this one until someone from Hero Games comes out and
states that the example is broken.
VL> Really, PRE attacks are inherently wonky anyhow. After all, the
VL> example of Howler on p. 171 has her making a REAL ATTACK (nailing an
VL> agent), THEN making the PRE attack. Strictly speaking, this should be
VL> illegal whether she's using a Power or not, yes/no?
Presence attacks are "no time" actions. They may be made at any time
during one's action phase.
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From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:39:03 +1000
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Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
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At 09:46 AM 12/10/97 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote:
>Really, PRE attacks are inherently wonky anyhow. After all, the example of
>Howler on p. 171 has her making a REAL ATTACK (nailing an agent), THEN
>making the PRE attack. Strictly speaking, this should be illegal whether
>she's using a Power or not, yes/no?
>
No. A prescence attack takes no time, just like an oratory.
It does not exist in the normal turn-based perspective.
A power attack was used to offer a solid general example
of a violent action, as opposed to one which could be
interpreted in diferent ways by different gms.
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Things I expect in a Champions supplement
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 02:44:00 +0000 (GMT)
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>
> In Deadlands they produce Dime Novel Adventures where they write up the
> scenario with the stock characters from the rule book so that by the time
> you get to the gaming info you already know the story, you've read it in
> novel form!! It's neat and it does help get a handle on the intricacies and
> the flow of the story, would people like to see a mini-comic using stock
> characters with each adventure?? I know _loads_ of would be comic book
> artists who would sell their soul to get the opportunity for such exposure...
That's a cool idea. HOWEVER; it was by doing this very thing that
Fuzion took a lot of heat. HOWEVER; Castle Falkenstien and Storyteller
have been praised for it.
I think I would like it PROVIDED it DID NOT shorten the amount of
other, useful info, provided to me.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:21:34 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
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>>If I have to go running to the library for information already, it's only a
>>smidgen more effort to put the style together myself. Knowing the
>>game mechanics of Than Vo Dao or Re-Efi Areh Ehsee does me little to no good
>>without that material -- if I can't describe to my players how an NPC with
>>this style is moving and fighting, I can't really get effective use out of
>>that art.
Ah, but knowing:
A.) that the style 'exists' (even if only in the dubious credibility of Mr.
Long - Jailhouse Rock indeed! What was wrong with 'dirty infighting'?)
B.) where the style originates/who uses it (most of the descriptions give at
least this much)
You _can_ track down the interesting stuff in the library. If they had just
stuck to a few arts and done them in detail, you wouldn't have that.
Okay, it's a weak argument *^_^*. I would have _loved_ more individual style
detail - especially on stuff the average westerner at least touches on -
Karate, Kung Fu, Sumo, Fencing, Boxing, Pro Wrestling, Jui-Jitsu, Pentjak
Silat, etc. Handing out a maneuvers list for stuff like Re-Efi Areh-Ehsee
and Hisardut really was a waste of space (as were the fictional styles.
Barf, though I did like Takijutsu, mostly for the nifty 'mystical' powers).
What _really_ should have been in TUMA is guidelines for simulating
Wuxia-style martial arts action - flying swords, incredible leaps and feats,
etc., all of which would work in a superheroic setting nicely (though you
can get pointers on Surbrook's web pages). Ninja Hero did a nice job of
segregating the various levels of martial arts sillyness - I wish TUMA could
have expanded on the idea.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:49:05 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: The Great(?) Linked Debate.
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-- This is my first exposure to what people have called the great linked
debate. I can now understand peoples panic when linked is mentioned
anywhere on the list. Who would have that that such a "simple" little
disad could cause so much heated discussions?
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:49:24 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
Subject: Re: TUSV: Sabotage
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At 10:22 AM 12/10/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> Something occurred to me yesterday that should be in TUSV, but isn't in
>the current manuscript: sabotage. This happens quite frequently in movies
>and stuff, and so should have some rules covering it.
> My problem is, I'm not sure how it should be handled.
> What I'm leaning toward is this (to give a simplified version): The
>saboteur decides what he wants to do to the vehicle, and the GM assigns an
>appropriate Skill, just like a normal application. And, of course, there's
>a difficulty penalty for what the saboteur is trying to do:
>
> Disabling a Device: -1 per ten Active Points being shut off.
> Planting a Device (such as a bomb or remote control): -1 per ten Active
>Points being added.
> Weakening a Device (such as Burnout Rolls, Extra Time Limitation, etc.):
>-1 per -1/4 Limitation being imposed on a device.
>
> Does anyone have any feedback or further suggestions? I haven't
>dedicated anything to the actual manuscript yet (I'm still putting in stuff
>based on the recent discussion on locks -- thanks gang!), so the section is
>still open.
>---
how about these as a start for how 'into' the vehicle the sabotuer must be-
simple job- -3 (just walk by, casually pull out a wire or chuck on a
limpet mine)
major work- 0 (needs a work station, has to pop the hood, ect)
infiltration- +3? (climing inside a big vehicle, or maybe just shrinking down. .
dismantling - +4? (pull the thing apart and 'saw the axles', ext. . .)
>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:56:30 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
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On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, John and Ron Prins wrote:
> You _can_ track down the interesting stuff in the library. If they had just
> stuck to a few arts and done them in detail, you wouldn't have that.
Steve should have listed his source material somewhere. I have found some
very interesting material on the martial arts in UMA, but only because I
have a taijutsu instructor as a close friend.
> Okay, it's a weak argument *^_^*. I would have _loved_ more individual style
> detail - especially on stuff the average westerner at least touches on -
> Karate, Kung Fu, Sumo, Fencing, Boxing, Pro Wrestling, Jui-Jitsu, Pentjak
> Silat, etc. Handing out a maneuvers list for stuff like Re-Efi Areh-Ehsee
> and Hisardut really was a waste of space (as were the fictional styles.
> Barf, though I did like Takijutsu, mostly for the nifty 'mystical' powers).
Including the two arts you mentioned wouldn't be a waste if more
information was given. When was the art created, who uses it, what does
it look like?
> What _really_ should have been in TUMA is guidelines for simulating
> Wuxia-style martial arts action - flying swords, incredible leaps and feats,
> etc., all of which would work in a superheroic setting nicely (though you
> can get pointers on Surbrook's web pages). Ninja Hero did a nice job of
> segregating the various levels of martial arts sillyness - I wish TUMA could
> have expanded on the idea.
Heh, thanks John. Actually, I've wanted to write Wuxia Hero for a _very_
long time. At the moment I am planning on drafting a proposal to GRG,
since Mark has expressed some interest in hearing more about the project.
If he says yes, I'll probably ask for suggestions on what should go into
such a book (to round out all the stuff I know should have been in there).
Heh, the best part about this plan is the research!
(okay, we got Big Trouble and Ninja Scroll and Ranma 1/2 and Fong Sai Yuk
and Bride With the White Hair and Kid From Tibet and Zu and A Chinese
Ghost Story and a zillion Dragonball Z episodes... Mike is ready to
write!)
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:11:58 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
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> Nice phrasing... makes one wonder exactly what Vox did to Steve to get him
> to make said ruling.:) ("Reverse that ruling or I'll make you throw out
> the Hero System for a fixed power list system and rework the Champions U
> to emulate a style of comics which not only sucks but is dying in the
> marketplace!" Oh wait... they actually _did_ that...)
Deja Vu to Austen Powers there. Anyone who's seen it knows the
scene I'm talking about.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:26:54 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Regenerating limbs
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--
----------Robert A. West wrote:
>
> Rick Holding wrote:
> >
> > -- Robert A. West wrote:
> > ><<snip>>
>
> > >
> > > Thus, I would hold that a Drain BODY cannot be used for this purpose.
> > > Drain Movement might have an SFX of injuring a leg, but severing the
> > > limb is not generally a reasonable special effect, unless regrowing limbs
> > > is an everyman power.
> >
> > Why not? In a world where powers are defined by special effects, why
> > can't a body drain be represented by eventual lose of limbs?
>
> Sorry, I left out a piece of the argument, assuming that it would be
> clear. If you represent limb loss by a Drain, then what happens when the
> Drain fades? Doesn't the limb logically have to regrow? Also, remember
> that the fade rate is unaffected by the target, so it will fade just as
> fast for feeble Aunt May as for Spiderman. This just has the wrong look
> and feel for my taste.
> I am fully aware that drains fade. But even the write up for Drain says "By
moving the return rate far down the time chart, it is possible to effectively destroy
an opponent's characteristic or power."
> > What about a
> > vorpal blade? It does normal damage and on an 8- activation (5-, whatever) the
> > target suffers 1-2D6 body drain, recovery time shifted into the far future.
>
> Fine, you sever my arm with recovery 5 pts/year(+2 1/4)! Even if I am
> the worst bozo in the world, I will bud a new arm after a couple of
> months, and get it back in a year or eighteen months.
Continueing from above. Moving the recovery down to 5pts/year is not
anywhere near far enough. Make it recover 1 character point per 100 years
(+3? +3 1/2?). This means immortals will grow back lost body parts. Why not? Being
immortal probarly should include some sort of slow regen. But normals will not
regrow lost limbs.
-------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael Sprague <msprague@eznet.net>
Subject: RE: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:29:49 -0800
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>> It really doesn't matter whether you play this the other way around or
not.
>> This is mostly a "points thingy" that makes the smaller Power cheaper.
>> When using this Power/Linked Power, _I_, the player choose the Power
Level
>> I want to use (assuming I didn't add a Limitation like "Beam Attack").
>> What this means is that I could fire off an attack that does 12d6
EB/3d6
>> Flash, one that does 12d6 EB/0d6 Flash, or 1d6 EB/3d6 Flash (maybe even
0d6
>> EB/3d6 Flash, so long as 1 END is spent for the EB when using the
Powers).
>
> Nooooooo!
>
> That really doesn't work. Not at all.
>
> No matter which interpretation you use, which camp you side with,
> running the limitation like that is just a plain old points crock.
Hmmm, quite interesting. I certainly understand your point, though I am
not in total agreement with it. There is nothing in the rules that
prohibit my interpretation.
Unless I take something like beam effect, or maybe an ultra MP slot, I can
use _any_ power I have at any strength (assuming such a thing makes sense
for the Power). Now your telling me that this no longer applies if I use
Linked? I don't think so!
I do see what you think this is a points crock though, and thanks for
pointing it out. I'm going to have to think about this aspect some more.
As far as other's comments go about making you use them linked powers
proportionately, that's potentially a very good idea for a house rule ...
so long as one is not forced to use the linked power when one uses the
non-limited power it is linked to.
> Basically, you get a -1/2 on a power for absolutely no disadvantage, save
> having to spend 1 END on another power for a 0 level. This means there
is
> no reason not to take every power linked.
Well, yes and no. You shouldn't make such broad based statements when
there are many exceptions. For example, there could easily be limitations
on the power 'linked-to' (or even SFX reasons) that keep it from working.
Thus, the linked power can't be used either, thus, it's a limitation. As
a GM, I better not see those same Limitations on the Power with the Linked
Limitation ... but of course, I am sure there are exceptions to that too.
But yes, there is a huge potential for abuse here, and Linked probably
deserves a Magnifying glass next to it. GM's should carefully examine any
use of Linked to make sure it's truly a Limitation. It's very hard to
generalize though. You need to look at it case by case.
> That's easy. Because there is no such thing as "Linkable".
> Powers that are linked have become a new Metapower. They aren't
seperate.
> Having two powers be seperate and together isn't allowed at all, even
with
> any type of advantage. Buy them all seperately, in a MP if you wish.
But on this, we most certainly disagree! Your stating a rules
interpretation, and one the rules do not actually support very well ..
though they do not deny the possibility either. Since both of us will
state that our viewpoints are common sense ... then obviously it's not.
:-)
~ Mike
From: Pat10355 <Pat10355@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 23:37:53 EST
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From: Michael Sprague <msprague@eznet.net>
Subject: RE: Re[2]: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:02:39 -0800
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>(For the REALLY munchkinoid constructions, one should check out -The
>Ultimate Mentalist- -- worth the money for the laugh value alone).
In my opinion, that is the best of the Ultimate books written so far. Not that I'll use/allow everything in it.
~ Mike
From: Michael Sprague <msprague@eznet.net>
Subject: RE: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:08:32 -0800
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I have both, and of the two, I prefer Ninja Hero for several reasons. Much
has already been written on the subject, so I won't go into this at length.
I feel the rules are better written up in Ninja Hero (i.e. more balanced).
I thought Ninja Hero had too many Martial Arts styles. UMA really gets
seriously carried away ... lots of wasted paper there. I also like the
whole campaign thing at the back of Ninja Hero.
So far, UMA is the only one of the Ultimate series that I did not like.
There are some useful things in it, but nothing you can't live without.
~ Mike
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:11:10 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
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>
> Funny... I generally prefer to have the PCs be a mid-level hero group.
> The X-Men rather than the Avengers, so to speak. (Well, without the
> pretension and angst.:))
Maybe, but the X-Men have fought the Avengers and did just fine, so I'm
not sure if I agree they are not roughly the same level. Mind you, both
teams change so much, at any given moment either team might have a huge
edge.:)
>
> Mind you, I don't think this would be particularly difficult to change.
>
True, and it's a matter of taste. I prefer for a team to be the big one's
in city, but not the #1 team in the country. This is not even assuming
the US, my R.I.S.K. game has the team as the official superhero team of
Luxembourg (it's a long story;)
TokyoMark
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:18:28 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
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>
> Nice phrasing... makes one wonder exactly what Vox did to Steve to get him
> to make said ruling.:) ("Reverse that ruling or I'll make you throw out
> the Hero System for a fixed power list system and rework the Champions U
> to emulate a style of comics which not only sucks but is dying in the
> marketplace!" Oh wait... they actually _did_ that...)
Heh.:) Well, if you mean books not based on the Golden Age, I have to
disagree. As far as I know they are doing pretty well in the market
place. If you mean the 'blood drenched spiked hair guys and bad girls
with big guns' that the press release talked about, yep, it's hurting.
But I didn't see alot of that in C:TNM. My main complaInt with the game
still is that they didn't so much update it as do a totally new alternate
universe, with new totally different origins for characters. I liked Dr.
Destroyer as Al Zerstoiten (sp) the ex-nazi world destroyer, not as a
millenium old force:). I did a whole campaign (Something like 4 years
worth) based on what if Dr. D decided to take over the world instead of
destroying it, withn Dr. D as a more Dr. Doom like figure. It worked
pretty well.
TokyoMark
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:42:54 +1000
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At 12:18 AM 12/11/97 -0500, Tokyo Mark wrote:
>>
>> Nice phrasing... makes one wonder exactly what Vox did to Steve to get him
>> to make said ruling.:) ("Reverse that ruling or I'll make you throw out
>> the Hero System for a fixed power list system and rework the Champions U
>> to emulate a style of comics which not only sucks but is dying in the
>> marketplace!" Oh wait... they actually _did_ that...)
>
>Heh.:) Well, if you mean books not based on the Golden Age, I have to
>disagree. As far as I know they are doing pretty well in the market
>place. If you mean the 'blood drenched spiked hair guys and bad girls
>with big guns' that the press release talked about, yep, it's hurting.
>But I didn't see alot of that in C:TNM. My main complaInt with the game
>still is that they didn't so much update it as do a totally new alternate
>universe, with new totally different origins for characters. I liked Dr.
>Destroyer as Al Zerstoiten (sp) the ex-nazi world destroyer, not as a
>millenium old force:). I did a whole campaign (Something like 4 years
>worth) based on what if Dr. D decided to take over the world instead of
>destroying it, withn Dr. D as a more Dr. Doom like figure. It worked
>pretty well.
I think there is a reduction at least in the 'airtime' given to the
image-ect genre style. It isn't about the golden age, it's about
overused cliche. Sure, the major companies have stereotypic plots
for their characters (just look at spidey's sudden backflip), but
it's better by far than painting the entire uiverse with one brush.
And yes, I agree that they mutilated a perfectly good setting for
nothing- why couldn't dr D just kill them the 'old-fasioned' way,
with a bunch of giant robots? Or they could have wiped out the
heros in a full-scale dark gritty superwar. Actually, the C:mn
universe is the *only* place i ever want to see a spidey-style
backflip peformed. . .
>
>TokyoMark
>
>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:43:37 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
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Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
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I can't sit out this debate, now that my finals are over.:)
Having Ninja Hero helps if you buy UMA because NH has the sections they
SHOULD have had in UMA but didn't. The section with the asian names from
various countries was left out, only to be later reprinted in Watchers of
the Dragon.
They still have my own personal pet peeve in UMA, the mega ninjato (ninja
sword). Why they have this sword doing the damage of a katana with a +1
stun multiplier added on is beyond me. I assumed it was an error in NH.
I usually like the Steven Long stuff, but now and then I think he's out in
left field. The stances were unnecessary. I could have done without Zen
Riflery, and ranged martial arts in general, but I'll admit they bring
thrown weapons up to a more cinematic level.
The fictional martial arts are a mixed bag, some are pretty good, some
I'll never use. The real martial arts need a little more detail at
times./ And many of them could have been left out totally (Jail House
Rock, for example), while bigger name martial arts were left out. Russian
Sambo is not a variation on amatuer wrestling, it has more in common with
Jujutsu and seemingly would have merited a write up. And in pro wrestling
Lucha Libre is about as far from real as pro wrestling gets.:)
> What _really_ should have been in TUMA is guidelines for simulating
> Wuxia-style martial arts action - flying swords, incredible leaps and feats,
> etc., all of which would work in a superheroic setting nicely (though you
> can get pointers on Surbrook's web pages). Ninja Hero did a nice job of
> segregating the various levels of martial arts sillyness - I wish TUMA could
> have expanded on the idea.
I wish they had done alot more Wuxia also, but the power level segregation
in NH was anothet pet peeve. It was a waste of space to have the same
basic effect written up four times in four different locations, for
four different power levels.
TokyoMark
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:50:08 +1000
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At 12:11 AM 12/11/97 -0500, Tokyo Mark wrote:
>>
>> Funny... I generally prefer to have the PCs be a mid-level hero group.
>> The X-Men rather than the Avengers, so to speak. (Well, without the
>> pretension and angst.:))
>
>Maybe, but the X-Men have fought the Avengers and did just fine, so I'm
>not sure if I agree they are not roughly the same level. Mind you, both
>teams change so much, at any given moment either team might have a huge
>edge.:)
>
It's also the outlaw/sanctioned thing. . if the x-men weren't so
busy whining and actually FOUGHT CRIME occasionally, they'd
probably have a 'professional, superior' rivalry with the avengers. .
then again the avengers don't fight crime at the mo either. . .
is all that 'hero's recycled' stuff OVER yet??
From: Egyptoid <Egyptoid@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 01:06:58 EST
Subject: LARGE KARZA BOTS
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LARGE KARZA-BOT
Size: 3.2m Weight: 1.5 tons Move: 5"
----------DAMAGE----------------------------------------------------------
Stat CHART: Power/System/Talents
-------------+------------------------------------------------------------
50 STR 2-3| 2 +8 Ranged Combat, +3 Levels all other Skills & Combat
18 DEX | 4 levels Growth, always on
50 CON 4| 18 PD/ED Armor, Hardened, Ablative
50 BODY | 3 2d6 HKA, 5x AF (Mecha-Claws)
10 INT 5| 4 5d6 RKA, Area Effect One Hex, +1 Stun (Heavy Phaser)
10 EGO 6| 5 2d6 RKA, (Variable-Sfx) - (Spite-Gun) {OAF}
50 PRE* 7| 6 Flash,4d6, vs Sight&Smell, AVLD, Pers.Immune (Smoke)
-10 COM | 7 6" Swimming (total)
22 PD 8| 8 360 degree sight, Infravision, X-Ray Vision (lead,gold)
22 ED 9| +5 to sight PER rolls
3 SPD | 9 Regeneration: 1 Body Per Turn, 1 System per hour.
5 REC 10|10 Mind Link: robot, drone, clone, or Karza. (ULF radio)
50 END 11|11 4d6 Aid to Stun & End, Continous, Persistent
50 STUN 12|12 Invisiblility: Sight,Mental,Radio Only From Behind
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mental Defense: 16 Power Defense: 16 Flash Def:3 (Site,Hear,Radio)
Life Support: Totally Bio-Mechanical: No Aging, No Breathing,
No Regular Diseases, Safe in Vac, Pressure, Heat, Cold, Air-Tight,
No Sleep Necessary, No Eat, No Excrete either. (Does Need Water)
Immunity: Any & All Toxins, Water-Tight
Climbing, Stealth, Lip-Reading, Tactics, Combat Sense, Def.Maneuver
Absolute Time Sense, Bump of Direction, Lightning Calculator
Math, Paramedic, Repair, Sec.Sys, System Ops, Protocol, Military
Weapons Familiarities, High Range Radio Hearing, Parabolic Hearing
Languages: English, Micronics, French, Acroyear, Binary.
Disadvantages:
Acc.Change: Automaton-like, Body Damage causes shutdowns on an 11-,
Roll a Control Dice & 2d6 on Damage Chart above by stats.
Control: 1-2, cut stat in half; on 3-4, lose system; 5-6 = do both.
DF: Bio-Mechanoid, Huge Mofugly Robot.
Psych: Programmed Behaviors (Slay Enemies, Slay Traitors, Guard
Important Sites, Protect Resources & Each Other, Protect Karza, etc)
Psych: Order Followers Psych: Death Machine
Watched: Baron Karza Phys.Limit: Huge
-1" Running * 40 PRE as defensive only.
Flash AVLD: Sealed Systems, No Breathe, Mechanoid, Automaton, etc.
When they take any BODY, (any amount, not per point) Roll 1 dice
for either the stat column, the powers column, or both. Then roll 2d6
to see which stat/system is affected. Cut current value of stat in half.
Affected powers are lost. If you roll a missing system again, do not
re-roll the dice, just take the next one up or down. Systems 9 & 11,
the Regen and Aid, and also the Ablative Armor must be repaired externally,
once damaged these are lost until the Bot has an hour non-combat with
2 other non-damaged bots, or at a shop, to get them fixed.
Karza's Bots gleam like marvels of bio-technology. They are a mix
of nano-technology and cybernetics unmatched by human efforts. The
Robots look like death machines, there is no disguising their gun-barrel
arms, their active scanners, and even though not strictly alive, they
always convey the feeling of edginess & readiness. They can move in
uncanny silence when necessary, or intentionally clack their walking
pods in staccato military rhythm as they march into battle. When they
turn their backs, they can blend in perfectly with a background, as
long as it is isn't just a smooth steel wall. They have a quasi-electronic
coating system of chameleon camoflage on their backs. Their electronic
voices speak highly clipped & speedy versions of regular languages,
mainly to relay commands to slaves or challenges to enemies, though they
normally communicate silently at modem speeds with each other.
These are the Large Robots as built by Karza. He's had time to study
the hero teams weaknesses, so that's what the Spite-Cartridges are for.
If the bot makes an INT roll, it will take a half-phase to load the
"correct" cartridge for an opponent. Loads include: Copper Wire Spikes,
Salt Crystals, Dry Ice Shrapnel, Acid Bags, Napalm, Nerve Agent Darts,
Cold Iron Bullets, Phospho-Briquettes, Radiactive AP Flechettes, Sonic
Screech Loads, Wooden Mini-Stakes, Electro-Capacitor Shock Caps, etc, etc.
These are designed to thoroughly exploit PC weaknesses. About the only
SFX not available are magical ones. The Spite Gun is what makes these
bots truly dangerous.
--
elliott@tmscorp.com
aka egyptoid
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com (Unverified)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:24:09 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 12:56 AM 12/11/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> Not broken, really. Buying as focus rather than power is legit
>for much the same reasons one would buy movement with a focus rather than
>a vehicle. It's uder direct character control without worrying about an
>interface, etc. Also, the computer would represent your own skills
>(focused) rather than a follower the GM controlled. It has it's merits,
>and one flaw -- more expensive.
Uh, no. This is why I keep saying that Long often seems like he doesn't
understand the rules. The first computer construction on p. 99 is
explicitly supposed to be a "conventional" computer; THEN he gives an
example of the direct-character approach in the "mini-computer" following it.
In any case, there's a reason =why= computers (at least, those constructed
to the rules on p. 181-183 BBB) are bought as followers: these are, in
essence, entirely different characters. If one is buying "direct control"
abilities, you must skip the INT, DEX, etc. (to the best of my knowledge,
you can't have duplicate characteristics :/), and your computer will not be
able to act on its own. There's nothing wrong with the "mini-computer"
approach (buying Focussed skills instead of using the standard Computer rules),
>> I didn't see a reason to break Mind Scan out of the pattern established by
>> the other Mental Powers; the biggest change (making it a Constant power)
>> seems to be another example of "I don't grok the original rule so I'll
>> just write on top of it".
>
> Hmmm. This rule really struck me as a collaborated addition by
>the HeroGames editors fixing what they saw as a problem. I think it works
>more like MindScan should, really.
That would suggest the Hero Games editors have actual opinions about the
game rules, which in the past hasn't seemed to be the case. :]
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:24:11 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: nuts playing wiers stuff (Re: San Angelo)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 12:36 AM 12/11/97 +0000, Brian Wong wrote:
> But seriously, what's wrong with a faerie? The faerie realm has
>long been a staple of both the fantasy and super genres.
In and of itself, there's probably nothing wrong with faerie (assuming we're
talking about actual medieval lore and not Tinkerbell) characters.
In my own experience, people who've asked to play this kind of character
more often than not don't really grok superheroes, tending to fall into the
class "People who really wanted to play in a different genre" (like the
players who wanted to use a Sardukar, a Kzin warrior, and a D&D illithid,
respectively). But that's just the players I happen to know (and it didn't
stop me from putting Fey into my campaign notes on magic anyhow).
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:24:14 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Things I expect in a Champions supplement
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At 02:44 AM 12/11/97 +0000, Brian Wong wrote:
>> In Deadlands they produce Dime Novel Adventures where they write up the
>> scenario with the stock characters from the rule book so that by the time
>> you get to the gaming info you already know the story, you've read it in
>> novel form!! It's neat and it does help get a handle on the intricacies
>> and the flow of the story, would people like to see a mini-comic using
>> stock characters with each adventure?? I know _loads_ of would be comic
>> book artists who would sell their soul to get the opportunity for such
>> exposure...
>
> That's a cool idea. HOWEVER; it was by doing this very thing that
>Fuzion took a lot of heat. HOWEVER; Castle Falkenstien and Storyteller
>have been praised for it.
> I think I would like it PROVIDED it DID NOT shorten the amount of
>other, useful info, provided to me.
Long time ago, I read someone critiquing the game industry for being
stricken with "frustrated author's syndrome" -- that too much stuff seemed
to be written primarily to allow the developer to vent a desire to be
publishing "real" books.
To me, it comes down to asking whether or not the embedded fiction REALLY
serves the GM in understanding the adventure, or whether it just serves the
writer in getting F.A.S. off his chest.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:49:35 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Greetings
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> > Funny... I generally prefer to have the PCs be a mid-level hero group.
> > The X-Men rather than the Avengers, so to speak. (Well, without the
> > pretension and angst.:))
>
> Maybe, but the X-Men have fought the Avengers and did just fine, so I'm
> not sure if I agree they are not roughly the same level. Mind you, both
> teams change so much, at any given moment either team might have a huge
> edge.:)
Um. I really think it depends if the Avenger Big Boys show up or
not. They have legit Cosmic-level heroes, the X-Men don't. There are a
few on that team that could take on the entire X-Men team, let's say Thor
and Iron Man (OK, he's elsewhere, now, but . . ) for starters.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:56:19 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
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> > I really disagree with that statement. Heck, I actually see
> >reason for that Focus rather than follower Computer construction.
>
> I might have my reasons for mugging you, but it's still illegal. Broke is
> broke is broke is broke. :/
Not broken, really. Buying as focus rather than power is legit
for much the same reasons one would buy movement with a focus rather than
a vehicle. It's uder direct character control without worrying about an
interface, etc. Also, the computer would represent your own skills
(focused) rather than a follower the GM controlled. It has it's merits,
and one flaw -- more expensive.
> Hand). But many of the Dark Champions constructions don't seem to really
> take into account what IS in reach for a normal skill.
GM's call here, really. Depends on what type of modifiers a
typical GM will give out. For me, if it's a Super-level campaign, I'd
require some of those for the really big tricks.
> I didn't see a reason to break Mind Scan out of the pattern established by
> the other Mental Powers; the biggest change (making it a Constant power)
> seems to be another example of "I don't grok the original rule so I'll just
> write on top of it".
Hmmm. This rule really struck me as a collaborated addition by
the HeroGames editors fixing what they saw as a problem. I think it works
more like MindScan should, really.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 02:00:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
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Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
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> >The fictional martial arts are a mixed bag, some are pretty good, some
> >I'll never use. The real martial arts need a little more detail at
> >times./ And many of them could have been left out totally (Jail House
> >Rock, for example), while bigger name martial arts were left out. Russian
> >Sambo is not a variation on amatuer wrestling, it has more in common with
> >Jujutsu and seemingly would have merited a write up. And in pro wrestling
> >Lucha Libre is about as far from real as pro wrestling gets.:)
>
> It could be worse. The Street Fighter RPG equates Sambo with *professional*
> wrestling. (Sorry, WW, there are no piledrivers in Sambo).
I managed to wipe that from my mind until just now, gee thanks:).
Yeah, I remember now, piledrivers, powerbombs, the works. I'm feeling
inspired now, tommorrow I'll finally sit down and write up Sambo. the
only thing now is to figure out a way to make joint breaks more effective.
Even in human level games I usually see them get ignored for more potent
attacks.
TokyoMark
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:07:14 +1000
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Subject: Re: Greetings
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At 10:47 PM 12/10/97 +0000, Brian Wong wrote:
>> Seriously, this was always something that annoyed me about previous 4E
>> products, where they advanced the timeline on their own schedule and assumed
>> that the Champions (or whatever other hero group the author liked best) have
>> already run through all their modules. The more books get published, the
>> further "behind" your campaign becomes, diverging further and further from
>> the universe until you're rewriting every supplement you buy practically
>> from scratch.
>>
> Yeah, I noticed that in 'Champions Universe' they obsoleted a lot
>of the old modules by stating that "The Champions had done it already".
>
> This things work best when suppliments are as non-campaign
>intrusive as possible. Otherwise you have to do major rewrites to use
>them. Once you have to do that you're better off just using home-made
>stuff.
>
>
I think a good balace of 'campaign' against 'Intrusive' is a plus. . .
the basic dialogue would be 'instead of tracking the champions timeline,
let's give a general timeline for everythig ELSE, since the
champions-equivalents are the bits the pc's and gm will be making up
dealing with
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 02:07:32 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
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> Um. I really think it depends if the Avenger Big Boys show up or
> not. They have legit Cosmic-level heroes, the X-Men don't. There are a
> few on that team that could take on the entire X-Men team, let's say Thor
> and Iron Man (OK, he's elsewhere, now, but . . ) for starters.
I think Thor was around for one of the battles, but could be wrong. The
big edge the X-Men have is all those mentalists. It's already been shown
Rogue can absorb Thor fully, so he's out of action. Wolverine matches up
well with Capt. A. I think it's alot more even than you might think.
And being Cosmic is not all it's cracked up to be, Spidey beat up a Herald
of Galactus once (Firelord).:)
TokyoMark
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 02:16:43 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
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Subject: Re: To Steven Brust Readers
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> -- It may not be as bad as you think. The teleports were never used with-in
> combat as htus could be considered as non combat teleports only. This would
> mean lots of non combat multiples with very little in the way of basic
> teleport. A single floating location gotten by the use of telepathy and a
> couple of extra increases of mass. The only thing that could hike the price up
> would be useable by others. I thought of on others but no examples were ever
> shown of somebody else being teleported against their will.
In Jhereg (I think) it's stated it takes about 3 seconds to concentrate to
T-port, so they aren't used in combat, which makes sense. All T-ports
also seem to be place to place rather than short distances. I would say
at least some people do have usable against others, since they don't seem
to give the power for another to use. They actually teleport the person
themselves. Uasable by others would simply let Aliera give Vlad the
ability to t-port, which he already has (with the side effect of getting
sick).
>
> Most of the other effects were standard attacks with strange special
> effects. Of course, there was the teleport block (small hardened force wall
> transparent to energy and physical?), the block to stop resurrection and
> resurrection itself. (Anybody want to restart the bringing back the dead
> debate?)
But a big hardened force wall, tports only, 0 end and covering up to a
block. Pretty big points there. The reviving thing I'll definately do
with a house rule of some sort.
This was one of the best parts of the world, IMHO. Not that people could
be brought back from the dead, D&D had that for years. But thte fact that
death is looked at differently because of this. This is a world where
'killing' somoene and leaving them so they can be revived can be
considered sending the person a message;)
>
> The link to the orb was a right of the nobility (2 or 5 point perk) and
> was used as the local clock (absolute time sense). To use sorcery required
> that the link be there (-1/4 limit) and could be blocked by a special rock or
> if the orb was in the land of the dead. Oh, yea. The use of teleport on
> Easteners made them want to barf.
Technically the link to the orb was a right of all imperial citizens,
including Teckla, the peasants of the world. They just lacked the skills
to use the power. Easterners only got the link by becoming citizens
(usually this meant buying a title in the Jhereg). I don't think I'd make
sorcery requiring the link to the Orb a limitation. The link is never
broken except one isolated case, except as part of an empire wide plot
device.
>
> Witchcraft on the other hand was ritualistic, required components for
> the most part and the use of a familiar to handle some of the more extreme
> energy requirements. And there was no spur of the moment casting. Players
> would need to have a pre-prepared list of their "spells" and inventing new
> spells was an experience.
True. But it's also true spells could be improvised, like when Vlad used
effectively a extradimensional teleport to bring something from his room
to the Paths of the Dead. It seemed to be a variation on ritual
sympathetic magic. It's certainly true it took alot of energy, time, and
concentration.
TokyoMark
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 01:31:54 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
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At 11:50 AM 12/11/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>BG> I may be missing something here. Where in the Arkelos example does
>BG> it say that the Energy Blast that shatters the tree is done as a
>BG> 0-Phase action?
>
>Activation of a power is a 0-phase action.
>Presence attacks are no time actions.
That's not said in the Arkelos example, Rat, that's just restating your
opinion as fact.
To play Devil's Advocate, this breakdown is also consistent with the book
example:
* Activation of a power is a 0-Phase action.
* Activation of a power that requires an attack roll unavoidably attaches a
1/2 Phase action to the 0-Phase action.
* Most importantly, nothing in the example says the tree attack and PRE
attack take place on the SAME Phase, ergo it proves nothing except that
being violent makes PRE attacks more effective (which is what it was trying
to illustrate).
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 01:31:57 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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At 11:45 AM 12/11/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>A poor example, I think. Try this one: which is more useful, a 12D6 EB
>vs. ED, or a 6D6 EB vs. ED and a 3D6 Flash? Everyone has PD and ED, not
>everyone has Flash Defense. "Linked" becomes more useful than raw damage
>as you start adding powers with less common defenses.
I picked that example because I think the ABOVE is a poor (or rather,
misleading) example. As I said, "less common" is an illusion. The roughly
same percentage of people have Flash Defense as have Flash, much the same as
the same percentage of characters have PD as have normal damage attacks (all
of them).
Ergo, don't compare the linked construction just to EB, but also to a
full=point FLASH. You're still sacrificing the effectiveness of those
points to split against two defenses -- points of EB which "plink" against
the target's PD/ED could have been spent on the Flash where they would have
had an effect.
>The Linked limitation does not take this into account.
... perhaps because it may have been designed under the philosophy "all
other things being equal ...".
--
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From: Doc Weird <DocWeird@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 03:14:12 EST
Subject: Re: To Steven Brust Readers
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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In a message dated 97-12-10 06:59:05 EST, you write:
<< Since sorcery technically is just
drawing on power from the Orb and using it with a skill roll, VVP seems
like the best option, but for a fantasy game simulating the effects from
the book is very expensive. Teleports of a couple of hundred miles are
not uncommon, even for a less skilled sorcerer. I'm tempted to resort to
house rules. >>
Remember that if they take extra time to concentrate, 0 dcv, even extra
endurance , side effect stun drain, ( the dizzy/nauseous feeling) and things
like that, take the cost down a whole lot.......... low power sorcerers, just
had longer casting times, and worse side effects................
-----------------------------------------------that Doc Guy
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:33:10 +1000
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At 02:07 AM 12/11/97 -0500, Tokyo Mark wrote:
>> Um. I really think it depends if the Avenger Big Boys show up or
>> not. They have legit Cosmic-level heroes, the X-Men don't. There are a
>> few on that team that could take on the entire X-Men team, let's say Thor
>> and Iron Man (OK, he's elsewhere, now, but . . ) for starters.
>
>I think Thor was around for one of the battles, but could be wrong. The
>big edge the X-Men have is all those mentalists. It's already been shown
>Rogue can absorb Thor fully, so he's out of action. Wolverine matches up
>well with Capt. A. I think it's alot more even than you might think.
>
>And being Cosmic is not all it's cracked up to be, Spidey beat up a Herald
>of Galactus once (Firelord).:)
>
>TokyoMark
>
>
Yup, and didn't THAT spark debate in the lettercol *g*. Actually I
think it was well done, in fact the 'battle someone way
tougher than you' Idea is one in which I often do 'equal rights' with
the pc's- i.e. play it like a minatures game, all dice in the open,
minimum gm plot devices. That way if they win, it's a real victory
for them and one they know i didn't plan.
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:36:36 +1000
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At 06:09 PM 12/11/97 -0800, Rick Holding wrote:
> Weakening a device (brakes, steering, whatever) would probarly be
>mechanics but timing the failure would be the tricky part. The classic
>scenes in the movies where the brakes fail just as the heroes are going down
>a winding hill is a favorite of screen writers but unless somebody actually
>pushes a button to blow an explosive device, when it happens is in the hands
>of the gods.
>
No, that's becasue that's often the first time they TRY the breaks- serves 'em
right for driving so cool *g*
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:40:47 +1000
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Subject: Re: San Angelo (Re: Greetings)
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At 11:51 PM 12/10/97 +0000, Brian Wong wrote:
>> > Secondly, folks, you help us squash those INCORRECT rumors right away by NOT
>> >quoting them and pasting them into your messages. For example, the whole
>> >thread about "it doesn't allow you to do faeries..." garbage is simply
>> >misinterpretation.
>> >
>> Okie-dokey. I assumed this wuz the case, and in fact a good general theme for
>> powers is useful- for instance, how do adjustment powers and supresses work?
>
>Magic Pixie dust?
>Pheromone based horomones?
>Mass-Hallucinations?
>Tapping into the greater-subconscious?
>Toon-Powers?
>Reashaping reality to fit your model of it?
>'scaring' the DNA into reforming itself?
>Act's of god?
>
> I can come up with millions of special effects behind adjustment
>powers.
yeah. . that's kinda the POINT. All those explanations are ALLOWED. . .
BUT, IF you want something different (why would a golem be affected
by pheremones or have a part in the greater subconcious- don't answer that)
You have a nice, general concept at your disposal.. . .as I said in my post,
the flux doesn't sound like it's going to be 'encountered' very often,
just it's *results*, but still. .
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:47:21 +1000
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Subject: Re: nuts playing wiers stuff (Re: San Angelo)
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At 12:36 AM 12/11/97 +0000, Brian Wong wrote:
> Sounds to me like your players wanted a more humorous game
>than you were giving them.
>
> But seriously, what's wrong with a faerie? The faerie realm has
>long been a staple of both the fantasy and super genres.
>
>
Well, they were more testing the limits than nething else, .
but they were a team of superheros. . . .and that fairy
was so 'well' role-played as to be pointless. . . he had no desires,
he just skipped around whistling a happy tune. . . the villan
actually beat another pc to death useing the fairy as a club. . . .
Faries are fine. I kinda play one myself(happyelf). But just
that *particular* fairy i can do without, unless the game is
toon, or at least ote. .
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: nuts playing wiers stuff (Re: San Angelo)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:47:42 -0800
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On Wednesday, December 10, 1997 4:29 PM, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
wrote:
><snip>
>That was the worst ofender, a completly indestructable fairy
>who could not comprehend violence or conflict of any sort.
>He just stood around thanking people for the 'heavy presents'
>they kept giving him (i.e. lead!)
"Why did you make holes in me?"
"What?" I said cleverly.
"Why did you make holes in me? I thank you for the gift of metal...."
Larry Niven, "The Meddler"
Filksinger
X-Sender: nolan@pop.erols.com
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 03:56:17 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Faeries (Re: San Angelo)
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<x-rich>> But seriously, what's wrong with a faerie? The faerie realm has
>long been a staple of both the fantasy and super genres.
He says "Fairies", you say "Faeries". That's the difference. You're thinking creature of myth, he's thinking annoying little Lucky Charms leprachaun. The latter a sure-fire way to destroy a serious game, the former would be a very interesting diversion for a team tired of taking on world-beating heavy-hitters.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There he hath lain for ages, and will lie
Until the latter fire shall heat the deep;
Then once by man and angels to be seen,
In roaring he shall rise and on the surface die.
<bold>Alfred, Lord Tennyson</bold> - <italic>The Kraken
</italic>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scott Nolan
nolan@erols.com
</x-rich>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 04:26:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
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Subject: Re: nuts playing wiers stuff (Re: San Angelo)
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> > '''seriously''' though, after i started a hero game with some
> > friends i had to ban faries and other goofy sorts. You know
> > the drill: one wanted to play a vorpal bunny, another a
> > supra-lucky dumb blonde, another wanted to convert his
> > fairy over from nexus-
> >
> > That was the worst ofender, a completly indestructable fairy
> > who could not comprehend violence or conflict of any sort.
> > He just stood around thanking people for the 'heavy presents'
> > they kept giving him (i.e. lead!)
> >
> Sounds to me like your players wanted a more humorous game
> than you were giving them.
>
> But seriously, what's wrong with a faerie? The faerie realm has
> long been a staple of both the fantasy and super genres.
I think the humour comment is right on the money. I started reading alot
about fae when I went to university in Scotland and have to admit I think
anyone who pictures fae like that has watched to much Disney or
something:) Most of the stories I've read on faeries are far more
sinister.
TokyoMark
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 04:26:32 EST
Subject: Re: How do I buy these abilites??
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<< I have to throw my hat in here to that restricting FTL to out of atmosphere
prevents several comic book powers from being done in a reasonable cost within
hero. It needs some kind of in-atmosphere variation.>>
I agree totally. Perhaps this is something that could be addressed if we
publish a 5th Edition? Or am I opening a new can of worms? ;)
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 04:26:39 EST
Subject: Re: Greetings
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<< I personally wouldn't mind seeing more Ultimate Books, more Endless Enemies
(I use them for everything). >>
The Ultimate Books are something we'd like to publish, but to be totally
frank, it's up to Hero Games. You see, while our license allows us to publish
any Hero System book, every project has to have Hero Games' stamp of approval.
There have been a few projects that were not approved, but for the most part
they want to see as many 4th Ed books as we can get out.
<< Scenario books are good ecspecially when they include a good handful of new
villians. >>
One of the things we're planning for our San Angelo line are books which
contain a variety of material, all centered around a common theme or topic.
For example, in our PART sourcebook (planned for next summer), we're including
some new rules and skills, tips on GMing PART scenarios, tips on playing PART
PCs, new PART equipment (weapons, armor, tools, etc.), new PART vehicles, some
short adventures, NPCs, supervillains, etc. In short, some material for
everybody, players and GMs alike.
<< Something along the lines of Classic Champions would be nice where we could
see some of the older villians from all those enemy books actually upgraded
and in some sort of scenario thus giving them more depth, >>
THis brings up an interesting point that I have not yet covered. I guess now
is as good a time as any, so here goes. The San Angelo "universe" is a brand
new and totally separate universe, distinct from the old Champions Universe.
We are not mixing the two. Rather, we are starting fresh. So you won't be
seeing any references to people, places or things in the old CU (except
possibly as the occasional homage, like, say, "Seeker Pizza" or some such.)
Now before anyone gets upset, this does not mean that we won't publish
anything for or set in the CU, it's just that our focus is going to be on the
new San Angelo: City of Heroes line. However, people are (as always) free to
use what they want from our books.
And we may be publishing CU-related products from time to time as well. The
idea of a "Then and Now" sort of book, updating some of the CU villains is a
really cool idea, and I would easily push that up oin the production schedule
if we had a manuscript. But of course manuscripts generally start as proposals
(hint, hint).
<< Well, just my two cents worth. >>
Two cents are worth their weight in gold. Thanks for sharing your thoughts
with us.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 04:26:40 EST
Subject: Re: Greetings
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< Are there any plans for more superhero miniatures in the foreseeable
future? >>
That's a question for Hero Games, I'm afraid. I don't know of any plans for
more Champions figs. Sorry.
I have a question for the masses, though. Would anyone like to see more
"Cardboard Heroes" type of products? I don't think it would be too difficult
to do, even as a one sheet insert in a book or as a one sheet tear-out.
Thoughts?
<< Ever since Soldiers & Sorcery (? is that the name? >>
Soldiers & Swords was the name, I believe. Those folks are now IMAC100.
<< there's nobody left doing superhero miniatures. Is this something you guys
would even be involved in? >>
Well, we could certainly approach Hero Games for a license to do them, but
we really have no experience in miniatures. Believe me when I tell you that we
would *love* to get involved in producing figures (for Champions, Usagi
Yojimbo *and* Sengoku) but the start up costs for those are pretty high. We
probably won't be in a position to do those until next year if we do them at
all.
<< If someone were to produce quality superhero miniatures, would Gold Rush
Games be interested in marketing them?>>
Absolutely. And they wouldn't necessarily have to be licensed *Champions*
figures to sell well... although there is a natural tie-in there, for us. ;)
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 04:26:41 EST
Subject: Nuts & Faeries
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< Screw that! I'm not wasting my money if it lets some nut play faeries!>>
<LOL!> Oh, man, my sides hurt after I read that I was laughing so hard! It
was a welcome break from the recent posts I've been reading in the superheroes
newsgroup. Ugh! (No offense to anyone on this list who may be participating in
those threads).
Mark @ GRG
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 03:53:05 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 12:00 PM 12/11/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>VL> It could be worse. The Street Fighter RPG equates Sambo with
>VL> *professional* wrestling. (Sorry, WW, there are no piledrivers in
>VL> Sambo).
>
>But there are in the video game, which is what the RPG is supposed to
>simulate (to some degree or other).
Yes, but the point is that when Zangief uses these maneuvers, he's not using
Sambo, anymore than Blanka is using Capoeira when he tries to chew off your
head. To the best of my knowledge, the video game doesn't make too many
claims as to style, so it's not like they have any more reason to believe
Zangief is a sambo practitioner than, say, Nikolai Volkoff.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good |
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
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Date: Thu, 11 Dec 97 10:00:25 GMT
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Stephen McGinness)
Subject: Things I expect in a Champions supplement
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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I was just wondering whether there was a generic wishlist that people have
when they buy a supplement. Obviously there should be some kind of plot that
could be interwoven with an ongoing campiagn, or played as a one-off (dead
easy, huh?), supervillain cast and possibly some good, well-developed NPC's
that can be reused.
I was thinking of other things. When I first started buying Champions I was
sure they hoped to follow a policy of only publishing adventures that would
add something to the game, e.g., Scourge of the Deep which would explore the
variations in the rules when adventuring underwater etc, or would introduce
an organisation in some depth. I kinda liked that, a bit of added value. Is
there anything else that people want from a scenario pack??
In Deadlands they produce Dime Novel Adventures where they write up the
scenario with the stock characters from the rule book so that by the time
you get to the gaming info you already know the story, you've read it in
novel form!! It's neat and it does help get a handle on the intricacies and
the flow of the story, would people like to see a mini-comic using stock
characters with each adventure?? I know _loads_ of would be comic book
artists who would sell their soul to get the opportunity for such exposure......
Stephen
From: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net (Mike Lehmann)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 02:47:23 -0800
Organization: Terminal BBS (403)327-9731
Subject: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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-=> Quoting qts to Mike Lehmann <=-
>The link is a 1/2 disadvantage, but is it really?
qt> CA NE VA PAS RECOMMENCER!
Too late. <g>
All we can do is ready the message filters and hope it doesn't last too
long. :)
GM: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net | Justice Krewe
Web: http://www.dfw.net/~aronhead/justice_krewe.html | The Illuminators
Short waiting list for new players | Enigma Watch
Lurkers welcome (Write to me!) | KnightWatch
... I think were all bozos on this bus.
~~~ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
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Date: Thu, 11 Dec 97 10:59:39 GMT
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Stephen McGinness)
Subject: Re: Things I expect in a Champions supplement
Cc: champ-l@org.omg
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At 02:44 AM 11/12/97, Brian Wong wrote:
> That's a cool idea. HOWEVER; it was by doing this very thing that
>Fuzion took a lot of heat. HOWEVER; Castle Falkenstien and Storyteller
>have been praised for it.
Now I have to admit that I have not looked at Fuzion so any comment I make
re Fuzion are complete hearsay and conjecture, but I got the feeling that
they didn't include the comic bits as a whole storyline, but instead of the
usual example panels. Castle Falkenstein did the whole story bit and it
entertained as well as informed. You could, if you really wanted to pay that
much for the story have ignored the whole gaming aspect of the book.
> I think I would like it PROVIDED it DID NOT shorten the amount of
>other, useful info, provided to me.
This is important. It would have to be added value, not instead of. It would
also have to be competantly done, if it wasn't quality controlled then even
free it would be worse than not having it at all....
Stephen
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 06:46:46 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Link degression
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 07:24 PM 12/11/97 +0000, Mark Lemming wrote:
>On the phrase "CON Stunned"
>
>How many people just want to reach across the table and slap the
>person with a wet sea bass when they say that?
It's a necessary evil. I've gotten into the habit of saying it myself often
just to avoid the (what should be nonexistent) confusion with getting KO'd.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good |
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
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X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 06:46:48 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 02:29 PM 12/11/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>Please cite something in the BBB that makes this connection. Also, please
>cite something in the BBB that says that Energy Blast *always* requires an
>attack roll.
I already HAVE, dammit, and the rule I'm citing is the actual rule that
invokes the existence of this thing called "Energy Blast" within the HERO
system in the first place.
PAGE SIXTY-FIVE, PARAGRAPH FOUR, SENTENCE TWO (put your finger on it and
count, I don't want you to miss it again): "To use an Energy Blast, the
character states his target and makes an Attack Roll".
Those are the instructions for the Power. I can no more use an Energy Blast
without following these instructions than I can watch TV without plugging it
in and hitting the "Power" button. I can no more use it for anything but
attacking at range in this manner (this being the function of the power
stated in sentence one) than I can use my television to cook dinner or fly
to New York.
Ball's in your court, Rat. Give me a RULE -- not an example, not an
implication taken from "they didn't say you CAN'T", etc. -- that says you
CAN use Energy Blast in any fashion other than the one actually used in the
description of the Power itself.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good |
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:10:19 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 05:17 PM 12/11/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>So, we have a specific case of Energy Blast always reqiring an attack roll.
>How about RKA, Flash, etc.,?
>
>What about the classic schtick of firing one's six-shooter in the air to
>get everyone's attention? Is that an attack? If so, what is the target?
>What gets hit by this attack?
The target is the hex above you at the horizon. You miss due to range
modifiers.
>There is no target. Westerns ignore the fact that the bullet will
>eventually come back down as fast as it was fired up. There is no target,
>there is no DCV, there is no attack roll.
In your campaigns, you're free to say that. BUT IT'S NOT A BOOK RULE.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good |
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
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X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:10:27 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 03:13 PM 12/11/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> Hmmmm. Yeah, I seem to recall that. Oh, well. It's still a
>valid construction and it does have the advantages I listed -- ie, more
By "it's", do you mean the mini-computer approach or the full-blown computer
bought through focus?
>direct control of the skills, not having to interface at a possible
>different DEX and SPD, etc; as well as no controller roll needed (Computer
>Ops in my campaign). However, it is a waste of points, in almost all
>cases. Chalk it up as missing the place in the BBB where Computers are
>said to be purchased as followers. Quick, find it! I never knew where it
>was 'till someone here pointed it out.
IMO, BTW, a computer without programs should require a controller roll.
It's like going up to a DOS computer with no preinstalled applications and
trying to word-process on it from scratch. Get your hex calculator ready ...
>> That would suggest the Hero Games editors have actual opinions about the
>> game rules, which in the past hasn't seemed to be the case. :]
>
> I've talked to Steve Long a little about his products, and he said
>that the Hero editors were pretty involved in his projects, especially the
>Ultimate series. For instance, the Mental Combat maneuvers were
>Peterson's, not Long's. Long had his own that were bumped. (I have a
>copy of those, BTW, if anyone is interested. Long said he wouldn't mind
>them being distributed to the list.)
I know, and Sean Fannon made a point that anything anybody didn't like about
-The MUTANT File- was only in it because "they" twisted his arm. It's a
little too pat of a response, and it's also a little hard to swallow the
concept of "them" pushing material on the poor authors, since the best
suspect for "them" (Steve Peterson) moves heaven and earth to keep from
making absolutist statements on the game system.
I'm not saying it's not true, just that it's hard to believe. So's quantum
physics, and I made the effort for that. :]
==
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good |
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
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X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:10:39 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 05:05 PM 12/11/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>VL> To the best of my knowledge, the video game doesn't make too many
>VL> claims as to style,
>
>You should read CAPCOM's literature about the game, because they do call
>Zangief's and Blanka's styles "Sambo" and "Capoeira", respectively.
Even if these characters know these styles, it doesn't mean every move they
perform was learned from them. I may allow that Zangief may have Sambo
training (though it doesn't show up anywhere on screen :]), but the
pro-wrestling moves he uses are as much a part of that style as Blanka's
electrical power comes from the jenga.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good |
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:18:48 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Things I expect in a Champions supplement
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 05:21 PM 12/11/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< I think I would like it PROVIDED it DID NOT shorten the amount of
>other, useful info, provided to me.>>
>
> A page or two of fiction to go along with the material in the sourcebook,
>perhaps?
Yeah ... really GOOD fiction ... fiction that tastes like it came in a
bottle, but comes in a can ... oh, wait, that's beer.
Seriously, IMO a page or two (or even double that) of fictional exposition
is certainly okay, as long as it (a) is not overly pretentious or "kewl" and
(b) actually has relevance to the sourcebook (for example, if a module, it
should capture the basic theme/tone of the adventure to come).
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good |
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:06:43 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: How do I buy these abilites??
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, David W Toomey wrote:
>
> >Actually, I never liked that blanket ruling on FTL. The fact of the
> >matter
> >is that people do travel FTL (or at least lightspeed) within the
> >atmosphere in comics, and a superhero game should have a mechanism for
> >doing so.
>
> Oh, really?
>
> Lightspeed would put someone around the planet 7 TIMES in 1 second!!
>
> I don't remember seeing *anybody* in comics whop could do that.
How about:
The Flash (Barry Allen)
The Flash (Presumably Wally West, who's supposed to be faster than Barry
now)
Blue Superman
The Ray
Airwave/Maser
Pre-Crisis Superman
The Construct
Swamp Thing travels that fast, sort of, but it takes him a phase or two to
build a new body. Actually, I'd do these last two with the Spirit Rules,
but that's a whole other issue.
And those are just off the top of my head. Don't you read any DC?
Besides,
> *how*
> do you choose a destination? I would allow it for someone who wanted a
> 'get out
> of town' power, didn't mind a 'random' (GM decided....) destination, and
> had powers that justified it (i.e., a teleporter with incredible, but
> uncontrolled long range t-port)
>
>
For Shock, a hero in one of my games who could convert himself into
electricity, I always required an Electronics roll.
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:53:10 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: To Steven Brust Readers
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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X-UID: 78
>-- It may not be as bad as you think. The teleports were never used with-in
>combat as htus could be considered as non combat teleports only.
Teleports were most certainly used in combat! Never point-to-point within a
melee, but certainly for escape and for arrival in an ongoing melee. One
specific example was the jhereg that swiped the Jhereg treasury and 'hid'
out at Morrowlan's castle. Once he has stabbed Aleria with the Morganti
dagger, he 'ported out RIGHT AWAY. No way was that a noncombat teleport, as
Vlad had to rush up and stand next to him to 'come along'. Most people (even
dragenarians) suffered a 'recovery' period in which they had to re-orient
themselves, though, after a teleport (probably an extra phase), which is why
few people 'dropped' into a melee. And teleporting took concentration, which
made it hard to do when fighting for your life.
> Most of the other effects were standard attacks with strange special
>effects. Of course, there was the teleport block (small hardened force wall
>transparent to energy and physical?),
Change Environment. With TPs so cheap, I wouldn't require a FW to stop them.
> the block to stop resurrection and
>resurrection itself. (Anybody want to restart the bringing back the dead
>debate?)
According to the books, the soul stayed in the body for three days. So it
was simply a matter of revitalizing the corpse, and that seems to be a
Transform, Not if Spine is Severed or Brain Destroyed (-1/2). Morganti
weapons destroyed the soul of the target, making resurrection impossible.
> The link to the orb was a right of the nobility (2 or 5 point perk) and
>was used as the local clock (absolute time sense). To use sorcery required
>that the link be there (-1/4 limit) and could be blocked by a special rock or
>if the orb was in the land of the dead. Oh, yea. The use of teleport on
>Easteners made them want to barf.
DEX Drain Side Effects, probably. Note that mind link and mind scan (only
for communication, not location) were dirt common.
> Witchcraft on the other hand was ritualistic, required components for
>the most part and the use of a familiar to handle some of the more extreme
>energy requirements. And there was no spur of the moment casting. Players
>would need to have a pre-prepared list of their "spells" and inventing new
>spells was an experience.
Witches were psionic, and could pull off a few mental 'disciplines' as
routine, like controlling the physical shock of taking a major wound -
probably just more STUN than average.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 06:56:55 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Computer Questions
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
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At 07:59 PM 12/10/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
> I have constructed the base statistics for a computer. It is
>a normal computer, not an AI.
> I would like to give the computer some Disadvantages to lower
>it's cost. However, I've seen conflicting information in regards to
>how computers are handled in HERO.
> On a chart labeled General Computer Information in Champions it
>states:
> Normal Computers have:
> ...
> 3) No Psychological Disadvantages
>
> Under the section 'Normal Computers,' however, it states:
> ... They cannot have Disadvantages.
>
> In the only other Champions book I have acquired, 'Underworld Enemies,'
>the write up includes the following for a Normal Computer known as
>'The Gallows' (pg. 44):
> Disadvantages
> 20 | Physical Limitation: Must obey creator's orders
> 20 | Physical Limitation: Computer
> 20 | Distinctive Features: Computer (Not Conc, Major Reaction)
> 10 | DNPC: Creator (As Powerful), 14-
>
> You assistance would be greatly appreciated. Reference to other
>computers in HERO and how they are normally dealt with would be greatly
>appreciated.
While overly harsh for my taste, I tend to agree with Vox' assessment of
these Disadvantages. The first three are inherent, and the fourth is invalid.
On the other hand, I imagine that a computer could have certain Physical
Limitations that cause it to shut off under certain circumstances, or to
represent things that normal computers can do that this one can't; a Hunter
and/or a Reputation might also be allowed in some cases. I rather expect
that, back in '89, the only Disadvantage that the Hero creators could
imagine a computer having was a Psychological Limitation, and an entity
with no EGO cannot have a Psych Limit.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 06:58:31 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Faeries (Re: San Angelo)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
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X-UID: 86
<x-rich>At 03:56 AM 12/11/97 -0500, Scott Nolan wrote:
>>>>
<excerpt>> But seriously, what's wrong with a faerie? The faerie realm
has
>long been a staple of both the fantasy and super genres.
</excerpt>He says "Fairies", you say "Faeries". That's the difference.
You're thinking creature of myth, he's thinking annoying little Lucky
Charms leprachaun. The latter a sure-fire way to destroy a serious game,
the former would be a very interesting diversion for a team tired of
taking on world-beating heavy-hitters.
<<<<<<<<
Using fairies is also a sure-fire way to add some Politically
Incorrect humor to a game set in San Francisco.
[He says, being sure to have at least 7/8 cover.]
>>>>
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
</x-rich>
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:06:11 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings
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At 05:07 PM 12/11/97 +1000, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
>At 10:47 PM 12/10/97 +0000, Brian Wong wrote:
>> Yeah, I noticed that in 'Champions Universe' they obsoleted a lot
>>of the old modules by stating that "The Champions had done it already".
>>
>> This things work best when suppliments are as non-campaign
>>intrusive as possible. Otherwise you have to do major rewrites to use
>>them. Once you have to do that you're better off just using home-made
>>stuff.
>
>I think a good balace of 'campaign' against 'Intrusive' is a plus. . .
>the basic dialogue would be 'instead of tracking the champions timeline,
>let's give a general timeline for everythig ELSE, since the
>champions-equivalents are the bits the pc's and gm will be making up
>dealing with
Better yet, I was hoping that the timeline would feature stuff that had
been dealt with in the long-term back-stories of the modules for 4th ed. I
didn't mind them putting 3rd ed publications into the realm of "been there,
done that," and enough has been written to put the Day of the Destroyer
into a fixed point in the past, but I would have preferred a timeline that
led into the published adventures rather than paved over them.
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Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:08:03 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings
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At 04:26 AM 12/11/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
> I have a question for the masses, though. Would anyone like to see more
>"Cardboard Heroes" type of products? I don't think it would be too difficult
>to do, even as a one sheet insert in a book or as a one sheet tear-out.
>Thoughts?
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes! This was the main feature that encouraged me
to buy Alien Enemies! (It sure wasn't the book's organization....)
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Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:12:08 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: How do I buy these abilites??
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At 04:26 AM 12/11/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< I have to throw my hat in here to that restricting FTL to out of
atmosphere
>prevents several comic book powers from being done in a reasonable cost
within
>hero. It needs some kind of in-atmosphere variation.>>
>
> I agree totally. Perhaps this is something that could be addressed if we
>publish a 5th Edition? Or am I opening a new can of worms? ;)
If your "new can of worms" is a 5th Edition, you're probably setting
yourself up for a sainthood.
(Not to mention a *very* full mailbox.)
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Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:22:11 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Going off on a little tangent
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At 12:18 AM 12/11/97 -0500, Tokyo Mark wrote:
>>
>> Nice phrasing... makes one wonder exactly what Vox did to Steve to get him
>> to make said ruling.:) ("Reverse that ruling or I'll make you throw out
>> the Hero System for a fixed power list system and rework the Champions U
>> to emulate a style of comics which not only sucks but is dying in the
>> marketplace!" Oh wait... they actually _did_ that...)
>
>Heh.:) Well, if you mean books not based on the Golden Age, I have to
>disagree. As far as I know they are doing pretty well in the market
>place. If you mean the 'blood drenched spiked hair guys and bad girls
>with big guns' that the press release talked about, yep, it's hurting.
>But I didn't see alot of that in C:TNM. My main complaInt with the game
>still is that they didn't so much update it as do a totally new alternate
>universe, with new totally different origins for characters. I liked Dr.
>Destroyer as Al Zerstoiten (sp) the ex-nazi world destroyer, not as a
>millenium old force:). I did a whole campaign (Something like 4 years
>worth) based on what if Dr. D decided to take over the world instead of
>destroying it, withn Dr. D as a more Dr. Doom like figure. It worked
>pretty well.
When I learned that Hero was going to not only start a new universe but
a new game system as well, I was inspired to assemble notes for an
adventure that would allow GMs to go directly from one to the other with a
"logical" explanation. Entitled "Doomsday," it detailed what happens when
Doctor Destroyer (the familiar old Albert Zerstoiten, and yes you spelled
it right) got ahold of the Cosmic Locus and prepares to use it to re-create
the universe in his own image. Of course, he fails to make a total change,
but he does manage to set himself up as a demigod and cause a catastrophe
that wipes out the majority of superheroes (this element I've added since
getting to peek inside C:NM). This whole idea was basically an homage to
the Crisis/Zero Hour series, along with a little Secret Wars for good measure.
Though it's fairly extensive, I *may* get this adventure posted to my
website late next year or early in '99.
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Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:28:46 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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At 08:29 PM 12/10/97 -0800, Michael Sprague wrote:
>As far as other's comments go about making you use them linked powers
>proportionately, that's potentially a very good idea for a house rule ...
>so long as one is not forced to use the linked power when one uses the
>non-limited power it is linked to.
Now, hold on there. That's exactly what the Linked Limitation *does.*
It says so right there in the description.
>> Basically, you get a -1/2 on a power for absolutely no disadvantage, save
>> having to spend 1 END on another power for a 0 level. This means there
>is
>> no reason not to take every power linked.
>
>Well, yes and no. You shouldn't make such broad based statements when
>there are many exceptions. For example, there could easily be limitations
>on the power 'linked-to' (or even SFX reasons) that keep it from working.
> Thus, the linked power can't be used either, thus, it's a limitation. As
>a GM, I better not see those same Limitations on the Power with the Linked
>Limitation ... but of course, I am sure there are exceptions to that too.
If a larger power "Does Not Work Under Certain Circumstances," then any
Power that's Linked to it should have it as well. I can think of no reason
not to.
>But yes, there is a huge potential for abuse here, and Linked probably
>deserves a Magnifying glass next to it. GM's should carefully examine any
>use of Linked to make sure it's truly a Limitation. It's very hard to
>generalize though. You need to look at it case by case.
The description of Linked in the HSR is horribly under-written. I don't
think there's much debate over that, especially with as much debate that
it's generated over the years on how it works.
But no interpretation of it that I've ever seen before you has ever
allowed non-proportional use, nor the use of the larger Power without the
use of the Linked Power. Those are *extremely* important balancers for
this Limitation.
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From: ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:29:08 +0000
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes
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> Since it seems that the majority of folks (onthis list, anyway) would like
> to see more cardboard minis, let me ask you this: Would you be willing to pay
> an extra $2 for a book that had them included?
If they were included in a product I already wanted to buy, it would
make no difference. I probably wouldn't buy a product I couldn't
otherwise use just to get the minis (unless I got it in the bargain
bin).
Guy
----------------------------------
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Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:32:03 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
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At 09:46 AM 12/10/97 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote:
>At 07:46 PM 12/10/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>VL> You can't use EB without the attack roll,
>>
>>Sure you can. Fire it in the air as part of a presence attack. It falls
>>under "demonstration of a power".
>
>Sounds good, except that it doesn't fit the description of the power. p.
>65: "A character with this Standard Power can attack at range. To use an
>Energy Blast, the character states his target and makes an Attack Roll."
>Seems pretty straightforward -- a use of energy blast IS an attack, and
>requires an Attack Roll.
In the case of using it by firing it into the sky, the character makes
an Attack Roll against the Sky (which would have a DCV well into the
three-digit negative numbers, albeit with some pretty good Range Mods).
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Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:34:53 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
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At 09:36 PM 12/10/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>>>>> "VL" == Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> writes:
>
>VL> Sounds good, except that it doesn't fit the description of the power.
>VL> p. 65: "A character with this Standard Power can attack at range.
>VL> To use an Energy Blast, the character states his target and makes an
>VL> Attack Roll." Seems pretty straightforward -- a use of energy blast IS
>VL> an attack, and requires an Attack Roll.
>
>Go read the section on Presence Attacks, specifically the example of the
>guy blasting the tree, making a presence attack, then blasting the troll.
>
>Wonky or not, either the example in the BBB is wrong, or you are wrong.
>
>I am with the BBB on this one until someone from Hero Games comes out and
>states that the example is broken.
I may be missing something here. Where in the Arkelos example does it
say that the Energy Blast that shatters the tree is done as a 0-Phase
action?
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Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:44:02 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Greetings
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On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
> I have a question for the masses, though. Would anyone like to see more
> "Cardboard Heroes" type of products? I don't think it would be too difficult
> to do, even as a one sheet insert in a book or as a one sheet tear-out.
> Thoughts?
I have just about every Card Board Heroes set SJ Games ever printed (and a
few duplicates). I also picked up a set of Shadowrun cardboard heros and
even V&V cardboard characters.
Any new sets would be greatly appreciated. Supers, normal, fantasy, SF
etc.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
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***************************************************************************
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:45:57 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: How do I buy these abilites??
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On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
> << I have to throw my hat in here to that restricting FTL to out of atmosphere
> prevents several comic book powers from being done in a reasonable cost within
> hero. It needs some kind of in-atmosphere variation.>>
>
> I agree totally. Perhaps this is something that could be addressed if we
> publish a 5th Edition? Or am I opening a new can of worms? ;)
>
Ahem, Mark, do you realize what you've just *said*? If you are serious,
be prepared for a ton of e-mail!
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* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
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Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:55:13 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Sabotage
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At 01:49 PM 12/11/97 +1000, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
>how about these as a start for how 'into' the vehicle the sabotuer must be-
>
>simple job- -3 (just walk by, casually pull out a wire or chuck on a
>limpet mine)
>
>major work- 0 (needs a work station, has to pop the hood, ect)
>
>infiltration- +3? (climing inside a big vehicle, or maybe just shrinking
down. .
>
>dismantling - +4? (pull the thing apart and 'saw the axles', ext. . .)
These are decent modifiers for a start. I'm not sure how to quantify
them, but not everything in Hero is concretely quantified. ("Surprise!
It's left to the GM's discretion!")
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Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:59:09 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Sabotage
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At 06:09 PM 12/11/97 -0800, Rick Holding wrote:
>> What I'm leaning toward is this (to give a simplified version): The
>> saboteur decides what he wants to do to the vehicle, and the GM assigns an
>> appropriate Skill, just like a normal application. And, of course, there's
>> a difficulty penalty for what the saboteur is trying to do:
>>
>> Disabling a Device: -1 per ten Active Points being shut off.
>> Planting a Device (such as a bomb or remote control): -1 per ten Active
>> Points being added.
>> Weakening a Device (such as Burnout Rolls, Extra Time Limitation, etc.):
>> -1 per -1/4 Limitation being imposed on a device.
>
> I wonder if you are trying to go too deep. Planting a bomb is
>demolitions and concealment. Having just written that, change of mind.
>Planting the device would apply a negative to the concealment roll. Extra
>time would balance if possible.
>
> Weakening a device (brakes, steering, whatever) would probarly be
>mechanics but timing the failure would be the tricky part. The classic
>scenes in the movies where the brakes fail just as the heroes are going down
>a winding hill is a favorite of screen writers but unless somebody actually
>pushes a button to blow an explosive device, when it happens is in the hands
>of the gods.
>
> But perhaps you are missing the greatest act of sabotage. Taking
>control of the vehicle. Now, that is where the villian has the most fun.
>Mechanics, electronics, system ops and a fair bit of time. The negatives
>would depend on the relative level of technology of the vehicle, I suppose.
>Try considering a normal vehicle as base (what, 20 to 30 points?) and apply
>-1 per 10 points above that base. Countering that would probarly be several
>people working on it (complemetry rolls) and maybe a decent amount of time.
>Other modifiers could be added both positive and negative for research time
>and effort spent.
I'm apparently not going too deep, since most of what you describe is
basically what I'm trying to do. (It just wasn't super clear because I was
trying to be brief and save bandwidth, not to mention keep down the amount
of time I spent writing here so I could be busy working on TUSV itself.)
And I do have rules on taking control of a vehicle; all the Sabotage
rules would add would be a way to plant a remote control receiver so that
the saboteur can use his device.
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Subject: Re: How do I buy these abilites??
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 97 11:06:56 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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On 12/11/97 9:06 AM, Bill Svitavsky (bsvitavs@bu.edu) Said:
>The Flash (Barry Allen)
>The Flash (Presumably Wally West, who's supposed to be faster than Barry
>now)
>Blue Superman
>The Ray
>Airwave/Maser
>Pre-Crisis Superman
>And those are just off the top of my head. Don't you read any DC?
Or From Marvel:
Captain Marvel (the Female One)
| David A. Fair
Think Different | SDS International
| dfair@sdslink.com
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "VL" == Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> writes:
VL> Think in terms of the most basic kinds of attacks: physical and energy.
VL> Which is better, a 5d6 EB vs. PD linked to a 5d6 EB vs. ED, or a 10d6
VL> EB vs. one or the other form of defense?
A poor example, I think. Try this one: which is more useful, a 12D6 EB
vs. ED, or a 6D6 EB vs. ED and a 3D6 Flash? Everyone has PD and ED, not
everyone has Flash Defense. "Linked" becomes more useful than raw damage
as you start adding powers with less common defenses.
The Linked limitation does not take this into account.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
BG> I may be missing something here. Where in the Arkelos example does
BG> it say that the Energy Blast that shatters the tree is done as a
BG> 0-Phase action?
Activation of a power is a 0-phase action.
Presence attacks are no time actions.
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From: "Marc Seebass" <kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: El Hazard
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:51:38 -0600
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I've been thinking of working on a Campaign based on the Anime El Hazard,
but I need to come up with a list of "powers" that characters could gain. I
was thinking speed (as opposed to strength) with a time limit of some sort,
where the character would have increased movement and agility for a short
period of time. Precognition also came to mind. Anyone else have some other
ideas?
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
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>>>>> "TM" == Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> writes:
TM> They still have my own personal pet peeve in UMA, the mega ninjato (ninja
TM> sword). Why they have this sword doing the damage of a katana with a +1
TM> stun multiplier added on is beyond me. I assumed it was an error in NH.
Nope. When you compare katana with ninja-to you will frequently find the
ninja-to to be of similar construction but much heavier. Aside from being
a weapon it was used in place of a variety of other tools, thus the
straight, heavier blade and large guard (square to keep it from rolling).
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 11 Dec 1997 12:00:10 -0500
Lines: 26
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>>>>> "VL" == Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> writes:
VL> It could be worse. The Street Fighter RPG equates Sambo with
VL> *professional* wrestling. (Sorry, WW, there are no piledrivers in
VL> Sambo).
But there are in the video game, which is what the RPG is supposed to
simulate (to some degree or other).
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
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From: ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:18:56 +0000
Subject: Extra Time on a Triggered Power
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
One of the characters in my campaign is using an INT Drain which
takes 5 minutes to prepare, but it is also built with a Trigger, so
that it can be delivered in combat; essentially, she has to inject
a potion into someone for the drug to take effect.
Is anybody else as bugged by this as I am? I don't think that the
Extra Time should be worth the full limitation in these
circumstances. How do you handle injectible drugs in your campaigns?
Guy
----------------------------------
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com)
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf
and the PANGAEA Project!
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Sabotage
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 11 Dec 1997 12:23:31 -0500
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>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
BG> And I do have rules on taking control of a vehicle; all the Sabotage
BG> rules would add would be a way to plant a remote control receiver so
BG> that the saboteur can use his device.
KISS: keep it simple.
For explosives, Demolitions is the skill required to destroy the sabotaged
thing. A failed roll means that the thing is only damaged. A simple
Concealment roll tells whether or not the device is hidden from casual
inspection.
For "critical systems failure", mechanics or electronics (or other
appropriate skill) to have the system fail at a random time. If the
sabateur wants the system to fail at a particular point -- after a given
amount of time or at a given event -- assess a -5 penalty to the roll. If
the roll fails with the -5 but would have succeeded without the penalty,
the system may fail at a random time. A second mechanics or electronics
skill roll tells whether or not the sabotage is concealed from casual
inspection.
The "remote control trick" is a variation of "critical systems failure",
though the SFX may require a Concealment skill roll rather than mechanics
or electronics for concealment.
Random failures should be modified by a character's Luck or Unluck.
If the roll to conceal the sabotage succeeds, only characters that are
actively searching for signs of sabotage, or those with special senses that
can somehow detect the sabotage, will have a chance of noticing. If it
fails, a normal Perception roll will reveal the tampering.
Defending against sabotage could be skill levels that assess a penalty to
the saboteur's rolls, or redundant systems (however you plan to implement
that).
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:31:46 EST
Subject: Re: San Angelino (Re: Greetings)
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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<< What bothered me about the San Angelino promo >>
That's San Angelo. A San Angelino is someone who lives there. ;)
<< ...was how it tried to explain Super's in so rational and scientific a
manner as to stifle the genre. IMHO. >>
Actually, it doesn't stifle the genre at all. All it does is give an
"explanation" as to why all those weird things happen. And even so, it still
doesn't explain "how." It leaves all origins available, just as they have
always been. But it gives us the ability to attach some meaning to it all, so
to speak. A lot of folks have said "Well, why do all these powers happen to
people, anyway? Why doesn't a lethal dose of gamma radiation kill them like it
would in the real world?" With the flux we've answered that question (sort
of). Nothing is invalidated whatsoever. And, as always, GMs are free to
totally ignore the flux in their campaign.
<< Otherwise I loved what I saw. I'll probably buy it and just write out that
portion of it in my own usage.>>
We're glad you liked it. And you are very right in simply ignoring that
section if you want. We've designed the whole book that way; take what you
like and sicard the rest. It's a very detailed book and yet has been designed
to be very easy to use as is, incorporate it into an existing campaign, or
simply pull a few neat parts out for use in an existing campaign.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:31:57 EST
Subject: PCs and Timelines
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< this was always something that annoyed me about previous 4E products, where
they advanced the timeline on their own schedule and assumed that the
Champions (or whatever other hero group the author liked best) have already
run through all their modules. >>
Ideally, if your PCs are playing in one of our adventures, there's a reason
for it. Either the other heroes are unavailable (sick, out of the
city/country, at work, have a hangover, whatever) or they are unable to handle
it. Hey, that's why your PCs are the top dogs in San Angelo! ;)
<< The more books get published, the
further "behind" your campaign becomes, diverging further and further from
the universe until you're rewriting every supplement you buy practically
from scratch.
<< A certain level of touch-up work is going to be necessary for any product,
but it's definitely a show of good faith to try to leave room in your campaign
material for the characters that the book is, in theory, being purchased FOR.
Glad to see you're on the right track!>>
Thank you. You know, just so that people on this list understand, we are
long time Champions players, too. We have all experienced the same problems,
hurdles and frustrations that you have. One of the things we want to do is to
present the Champions fandom with products that they *want*. That doesn't mean
that we'll always please everybody at the same time, but we are listening.
I hope that this "your heroes are #1" philosophy goes some distance toward
assuring you all of that. ;) After all, my philosophy is "I fI wouldn't buy
it, I won't publish it." Of course, I would buy some really odd stuff... :D
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:31:58 EST
Subject: Re: San Angelo (Re: Greetings)
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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<< yeah. . that's kinda the POINT. All those explanations are ALLOWED. . .
BUT, IF you want something different... You have a nice, general concept at
your disposal.. . .>>
You've hit the nail on the head. Thanks!
<< the flux doesn't sound like it's going to be 'encountered' very often, just
it's *results*, but still. . >>
The way we've written the flux into the campaign world, it's a totally
undetectable energy; merely a hypothesis of a small group of scholars and
scientists (but we all know their theory is correct <G>).
Mark @ GRG
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:22:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: PCs and Timelines
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
> << this was always something that annoyed me about previous 4E products, where
> they advanced the timeline on their own schedule and assumed that the
> Champions (or whatever other hero group the author liked best) have already
> run through all their modules. >>
>
> Ideally, if your PCs are playing in one of our adventures, there's a reason
> for it. Either the other heroes are unavailable (sick, out of the
> city/country, at work, have a hangover, whatever) or they are unable to handle
> it. Hey, that's why your PCs are the top dogs in San Angelo! ;)
Uh... I'm not trying to be rude (or stupid), but who *cares* what universe
the module was set it? Why slavishly follow any sort of timeline put
down by Hero or GRG? I mean, I know that in any game I run, I won't have
Viper or Dr. Destroyer or the Champions, so I'm going to have to edit or
change those elements present in a scenario or module I do get. The same
goes for a GRG book. If I like the scenario (or the character) but don't
use certain elements present, then I need to edit that part out.
Nobig deal, right?
>
> << The more books get published, the
> further "behind" your campaign becomes, diverging further and further from
> the universe until you're rewriting every supplement you buy practically
> from scratch.
But this is my cqampaign, I'm not required to follow any one universe.
And if one runs even a Hero-based universe, it seems silly to try and
follow Hero's product blow-for-blow.
> Thank you. You know, just so that people on this list understand, we are
> long time Champions players, too. We have all experienced the same problems,
> hurdles and frustrations that you have. One of the things we want to do is to
> present the Champions fandom with products that they *want*. That doesn't mean
> that we'll always please everybody at the same time, but we are listening.
>
> I hope that this "your heroes are #1" philosophy goes some distance toward
> assuring you all of that. ;) After all, my philosophy is "I fI wouldn't buy
> it, I won't publish it." Of course, I would buy some really odd stuff... :D
Well, so do I, but I usually look for cross genre compatability and
useful source material, not how well something will fit in any
preconceived timeline.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:49:46 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Greetings (Cardboard Heroes)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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> I have a question for the masses, though. Would anyone like to see more
>"Cardboard Heroes" type of products? I don't think it would be too difficult
>to do, even as a one sheet insert in a book or as a one sheet tear-out.
>Thoughts?
Actually, Yes, I would love some more up to date and different cardboard
heroes. They are cheap, easy to use, and it is nice to get 20+ cardboard vs
one per minature. We use them simply because we did just get into the
minature part of Champions and with players switching characters about every
four to eight games it is cheaper as I said just to whip out a new cardboard
then go buy a new minature. More please :) Take it easy and talk at you later.
Sparx
=====================================================
Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:56:10 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: El Hazard
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>I've been thinking of working on a Campaign based on the Anime El Hazard,
>but I need to come up with a list of "powers" that characters could gain. I
>was thinking speed (as opposed to strength) with a time limit of some sort,
>where the character would have increased movement and agility for a short
>period of time. Precognition also came to mind. Anyone else have some other
>ideas?
Well, looking at the list of powers from the 4 part series (as opposed to
the TV series, which I haven't seen):
Interfacing/Operating 'Ancient' Technology (probably a limited form of
telepathy, plus some sort of perk)
Immunity to the 'Illusions' of the Phantom Tribe (N-Ray Senses, Only vs
Phantom Tribe illusions)
Immense Strength and Durability
'Talk to Bugrom' ability (Persistant, communication only telepathy? it's not
just language, as they have no trouble understanding either).
A quick look shows that these particular powers are in now way balanced.
Fujisawa, at 'full strength', made the Hulk look like a pansy. All Jinei
ever managed was 'talk to Bugrom', which facilitated his natural
tactical/strategic skills.
A good idea (IMHO) running an El Hazard campaign - assuming you go the
'earth people transported to El Hazard and they get powers' is to NOT let
the players pick their own powers. Balance raw power with usefulness - for
example, Makoto's use of ancient tech was pretty much useless in a fight,
but it did allow him to stop Ifurita with it. Plan ahead and hand out powers
that _will_ be useful, even if not immediately apparant in the campaign.
Most of the players should be 'one trick wonders' - only Fujisawa seemed to
be multi-talented, and even then it was narrow focus (tough, strong,
superleap, some extra running speed). And he paid for it by having to give
up his vices.
Superspeed with an END reserve seems good. Precognition would be as well, as
long as it's No Concious Control. Basic Invulnerability (with no other
advantages) would be good. Telekinesis or Levitation (flight). Sonic Energy
blast (super-shout). How about Dowsing? Use a stick to find almost ANYTHING
you are looking for, given enough time.
Of course, you could go higher powered. Like animating rocks to become stone
golems to help you out (Summon). Just shooting energy blasts, though,
doesn't 'feel' El Hazard. Only the high priestesses and Ifurita were pulling
that off.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
X-Sender: bastet@pop.iquest.net
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:00:45 -0500
From: TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net>
Subject: Re: Going off on a little tangent
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> When I learned that Hero was going to not only start a new universe but
>a new game system as well, I was inspired to assemble notes for an
>adventure that would allow GMs to go directly from one to the other with a
>"logical" explanation. Entitled "Doomsday," it detailed what happens when
>Doctor Destroyer (the familiar old Albert Zerstoiten, and yes you spelled
>it right) got ahold of the Cosmic Locus and prepares to use it to re-create
>the universe in his own image. Of course, he fails to make a total change,
>but he does manage to set himself up as a demigod and cause a catastrophe
>that wipes out the majority of superheroes (this element I've added since
>getting to peek inside C:NM). This whole idea was basically an homage to
>the Crisis/Zero Hour series, along with a little Secret Wars for good
measure.
> Though it's fairly extensive, I *may* get this adventure posted to my
>website late next year or early in '99.
>
I LIKE this idea. It's about as good a segue as you'll find with all the
changes in the book. It's also a good homage to the wold DC world changing
events. The PC's would have to fail to stop him, but if they partially
succedded that could explain why the change was not all he wanted.
TokyoMark
X-Sender: bastet@pop.iquest.net
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:06:33 -0500
From: TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net>
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
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A
>TM> They still have my own personal pet peeve in UMA, the mega ninjato (ninja
>TM> sword). Why they have this sword doing the damage of a katana with a +1
>TM> stun multiplier added on is beyond me. I assumed it was an error in NH.
>
>Nope. When you compare katana with ninja-to you will frequently find the
>ninja-to to be of similar construction but much heavier. Aside from being
>a weapon it was used in place of a variety of other tools, thus the
>straight, heavier blade and large guard (square to keep it from rolling).
Sorry, I disagree. Yes, it was similar in construction. Yes, it was
heavier. However, the blade was not nearly as sharp. I can see the +1
stun mult (maybe), but not giving it the same cutting power as a katana as
well. It simply was not a superior weapon. More varied in uses, but not a
superior weapon.
From: "James Jandebeur" <waveking@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Questions
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:17:18 -0800
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
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-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Thursday, December 11, 1997 8:12 AM
Subject: Re: Computer Questions
>> 20 | Physical Limitation: Must obey creator's orders
>> 20 | Physical Limitation: Computer
>> 20 | Distinctive Features: Computer (Not Conc, Major Reaction)
>> 10 | DNPC: Creator (As Powerful), 14-
> While overly harsh for my taste, I tend to agree with Vox' assessment of
>these Disadvantages. The first three are inherent, and the fourth is
invalid.
I would think that the person who built the computer might be playing with
house rules where the computer is built more like any other character. Such
disadvantages on a system would be common in my game, for example, due to
the house rules I use, as they don't make distinctions based on "it's a
computer" and so on. However, it would be nice if the characters and
equipment in the books were built according to the official rules. If the
house rules were in it as well, maybe a mention could be made of how to
build the characters with those rules as well as the standard.
JAJ, Rules Philosopher
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:24:32 +0000
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Link degression
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On the phrase "CON Stunned"
How many people just want to reach across the table and slap the
person with a wet sea bass when they say that?
-Mark Lemming
X-Sender: bastet@pop.iquest.net
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:24:51 -0500
From: TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net>
Subject: Re: To Steven Brust Readers
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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>Teleports were most certainly used in combat! Never point-to-point within a
>melee, but certainly for escape and for arrival in an ongoing melee. One
>specific example was the jhereg that swiped the Jhereg treasury and 'hid'
>out at Morrowlan's castle. Once he has stabbed Aleria with the Morganti
>dagger, he 'ported out RIGHT AWAY. No way was that a noncombat teleport, as
>Vlad had to rush up and stand next to him to 'come along'. Most people (even
>dragenarians) suffered a 'recovery' period in which they had to re-orient
>themselves, though, after a teleport (probably an extra phase), which is why
>few people 'dropped' into a melee. And teleporting took concentration, which
>made it hard to do when fighting for your life.
Actually, Mellar (The Jhereg in question), didn't do the teleport at all.
He stabbed Aliera, realized something was wrong. When Daymar tried to mind
probe him, he ordered the body guard who was now Vlad to teleport them out.
Vlad acted like he froze up, then Mellar ordered the other bodyguard to
teleport them out. No one was attacking during this, so they were not
fighting. I agree about the concentration. Vlad during the later fight
comments Mellar would need 3-4 seconds to concentrate and tport out and he
was not going to give him the time. So, I still think tport is not
something you want to try in the middle of combat. but if you don't get
killed during the time you are trying it, it can be done. For some reason,
no one wears more than light leather armor, so the odds are not with you.:)
I don't find anything that indicates Dragaerans were ill or disoriented by
teleporting.
>DEX Drain Side Effects, probably. Note that mind link and mind scan (only
>for communication, not location) were dirt common.
Yep, mind link was very common, with mind scan. There were also other
detect spells to find people over wide distances and to trace teleports.
>
>Witches were psionic, and could pull off a few mental 'disciplines' as
>routine, like controlling the physical shock of taking a major wound -
>probably just more STUN than average.
Just about everyone was at least minorly psionic. Aliera comments Easterns
were given psionic abilities almost the equal of Dragaerans. It might be
equal, Aliera might be biased;)
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 11 Dec 1997 14:29:03 -0500
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>>>>> "VL" == Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> writes:
VL> That's not said in the Arkelos example, Rat, that's just restating your
VL> opinion as fact.
No, it is a restating of the BBB's time chart as fact.
[...]
VL> * Activation of a power that requires an attack roll unavoidably
VL> attaches a 1/2 Phase action to the 0-Phase action.
Please cite something in the BBB that makes this connection. Also, please
cite something in the BBB that says that Energy Blast *always* requires an
attack roll.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
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Date: 11 Dec 1997 14:31:13 -0500
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>>>>> "T" == TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net> writes:
T> Sorry, I disagree. Yes, it was similar in construction. Yes, it was
T> heavier. However, the blade was not nearly as sharp.
That is interesting, considering that many ninja-to were converted from
katana.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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>>>>> "VL" == Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> writes:
>> The Linked limitation does not take this into account.
VL> ... perhaps because it may have been designed under the philosophy "all
VL> other things being equal ...".
Yes, depth (raw power) vs. breadth (flexability) being equal, the costs
should be the same.
Linked as you interpret it makes breadth cost less than depth.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
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Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:42:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, TokyoMark wrote:
> >TM> They still have my own personal pet peeve in UMA, the mega ninjato (ninja
> >TM> sword). Why they have this sword doing the damage of a katana with a +1
> >TM> stun multiplier added on is beyond me. I assumed it was an error in NH.
> >
> >Nope. When you compare katana with ninja-to you will frequently find the
> >ninja-to to be of similar construction but much heavier. Aside from being
> >a weapon it was used in place of a variety of other tools, thus the
> >straight, heavier blade and large guard (square to keep it from rolling).
>
> Sorry, I disagree. Yes, it was similar in construction. Yes, it was
> heavier. However, the blade was not nearly as sharp. I can see the +1
> stun mult (maybe), but not giving it the same cutting power as a katana as
> well. It simply was not a superior weapon. More varied in uses, but not a
> superior weapon.
When several local people begain a "Big Trouble" styled-game and another
started a feudal Japan fantasy game, weapons got a major overhaul. STR
Mins were dropped across the board (it does not take a 15 STR to use a
katana one-handed) and damage dropped as well (katana 1d6+1).
We also dropped OCV bonuses for most weapons, unless it was a 'fast'
weapon (like a rapier).
So, the katana became a 1d6+1 HKA, with a STR Min of 10 or 7 (1 or 2
handed)
The Ninja-to became a 1d6+1 HKA with a STR Min of 11/8 (1 or 2 handed)
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:45:19 -0500
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org>
Subject: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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> VL> That's not said in the Arkelos example, Rat, that's just restating your
> VL> opinion as fact.
>
> No, it is a restating of the BBB's time chart as fact.
Sure, as soon as you show where in that example it confines all the listed
actions to a Phase (or, for that matter, where it says Arkelos attacks the
trolls).
> Please cite something in the BBB that makes this connection. Also, please
> cite something in the BBB that says that Energy Blast *always* requires an
> attack roll.
"To use an Energy Blast, the character states his target and makes an Attack
Roll." (HSR p.65)
"An Instant Power lasts just long enough for the character using the power to
make an Attack Roll." (HSR p.52)
Geoff Speare
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:50:53 -0800
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On Thursday, December 11, 1997 7:31 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
<snip>
>
> The description of Linked in the HSR is horribly under-written. I
don't
>think there's much debate over that, especially with as much debate
that
>it's generated over the years on how it works.
You're singing to the choir on that one.
> But no interpretation of it that I've ever seen before you has
ever
>allowed non-proportional use,
Agreed.
>nor the use of the larger Power without the
>use of the Linked Power. Those are *extremely* important balancers
for
>this Limitation.
Wrong. In fact, whether or not you can use the larger power without
using the smaller power is one of the primary points of debate in The
Great Linked Debate.
Filksinger
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:50:53 -0800
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On Thursday, December 11, 1997 7:31 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
<snip>
>
> The description of Linked in the HSR is horribly under-written. I
don't
>think there's much debate over that, especially with as much debate
that
>it's generated over the years on how it works.
You're singing to the choir on that one.
> But no interpretation of it that I've ever seen before you has
ever
>allowed non-proportional use,
Agreed.
>nor the use of the larger Power without the
>use of the Linked Power. Those are *extremely* important balancers
for
>this Limitation.
Wrong. In fact, whether or not you can use the larger power without
using the smaller power is one of the primary points of debate in The
Great Linked Debate.
Filksinger
X-Sender: bastet@pop.iquest.net
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:56:08 -0500
From: TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net>
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
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At 02:31 PM 12/11/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "T" == TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net> writes:
>
>T> Sorry, I disagree. Yes, it was similar in construction. Yes, it was
>T> heavier. However, the blade was not nearly as sharp.
>
>That is interesting, considering that many ninja-to were converted from
>katana.
Then why would the blade be heavier and straight? And if the blade was the
same, why would the sword do different damage? If only the handle of a
ninjato was heavier, then it would not explain the +1 stun mult.
TokyoMark
X-Sender: bastet@pop.iquest.net
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:58:43 -0500
From: TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net>
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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>When several local people begain a "Big Trouble" styled-game and another
>started a feudal Japan fantasy game, weapons got a major overhaul. STR
>Mins were dropped across the board (it does not take a 15 STR to use a
>katana one-handed) and damage dropped as well (katana 1d6+1).
Good point.
>
>We also dropped OCV bonuses for most weapons, unless it was a 'fast'
>weapon (like a rapier).
I like this idea.
>
>So, the katana became a 1d6+1 HKA, with a STR Min of 10 or 7 (1 or 2
>handed)
>
>The Ninja-to became a 1d6+1 HKA with a STR Min of 11/8 (1 or 2 handed)
I can go along with this. Ninjato are close enough to katana to have about
the same stats. No way they are 1/3 more effective.
TokyoMark
X-Sender: bastet@pop.iquest.net
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:58:43 -0500
From: TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net>
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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>When several local people begain a "Big Trouble" styled-game and another
>started a feudal Japan fantasy game, weapons got a major overhaul. STR
>Mins were dropped across the board (it does not take a 15 STR to use a
>katana one-handed) and damage dropped as well (katana 1d6+1).
Good point.
>
>We also dropped OCV bonuses for most weapons, unless it was a 'fast'
>weapon (like a rapier).
I like this idea.
>
>So, the katana became a 1d6+1 HKA, with a STR Min of 10 or 7 (1 or 2
>handed)
>
>The Ninja-to became a 1d6+1 HKA with a STR Min of 11/8 (1 or 2 handed)
I can go along with this. Ninjato are close enough to katana to have about
the same stats. No way they are 1/3 more effective.
TokyoMark
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:08:40 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Link degression
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 07:24 PM 12/11/97 +0000, Mark Lemming wrote:
>On the phrase "CON Stunned"
>
>How many people just want to reach across the table and slap the
>person with a wet sea bass when they say that?
Not me, but then again this is the only place I've ever seen the phrase.
I suppose it does kinda go along with "ATM machine" or "PIN number,"
though.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: San Angelino (Re: Greetings)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:12:01 -0800
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On Thursday, December 11, 1997 9:21 AM, GoldRushG wrote:
<snip>
> Actually, it doesn't stifle the genre at all. All it does is give
an
>"explanation" as to why all those weird things happen. And even so,
it still
>doesn't explain "how." It leaves all origins available, just as they
have
>always been. But it gives us the ability to attach some meaning to it
all, so
>to speak. A lot of folks have said "Well, why do all these powers
happen to
>people, anyway? Why doesn't a lethal dose of gamma radiation kill
them like it
>would in the real world?" With the flux we've answered that question
(sort
>of). Nothing is invalidated whatsoever. And, as always, GMs are free
to
>totally ignore the flux in their campaign.
I like this. In my Satan's Children PBEM campaign, I decided that all
powers were mystically based. You could get your power any way you
wanted (gamma rays, bitten by radioactive spider, you name it), but
the powers always operated by manipulating magic.
Powers acted exactly like my normal supers games. This "source" for
super powers didn't affect powers at all. What it _did_ do was work as
a campaign element. _All_ paranormals in that campaign are treated
like mutants in Marvel, frequently due to religious reasons. Not only
was the famous quote, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live," applied
frequently, but paranormal powers called into question the very
foundations of many religions. (Suppose Moses was a paranormal. Worse
yet, Jesus.)
So, yes, an explanation for the weirdness is interesting to me. I like
it.
Filksinger
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: San Angelino (Re: Greetings)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:12:01 -0800
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On Thursday, December 11, 1997 9:21 AM, GoldRushG wrote:
<snip>
> Actually, it doesn't stifle the genre at all. All it does is give
an
>"explanation" as to why all those weird things happen. And even so,
it still
>doesn't explain "how." It leaves all origins available, just as they
have
>always been. But it gives us the ability to attach some meaning to it
all, so
>to speak. A lot of folks have said "Well, why do all these powers
happen to
>people, anyway? Why doesn't a lethal dose of gamma radiation kill
them like it
>would in the real world?" With the flux we've answered that question
(sort
>of). Nothing is invalidated whatsoever. And, as always, GMs are free
to
>totally ignore the flux in their campaign.
I like this. In my Satan's Children PBEM campaign, I decided that all
powers were mystically based. You could get your power any way you
wanted (gamma rays, bitten by radioactive spider, you name it), but
the powers always operated by manipulating magic.
Powers acted exactly like my normal supers games. This "source" for
super powers didn't affect powers at all. What it _did_ do was work as
a campaign element. _All_ paranormals in that campaign are treated
like mutants in Marvel, frequently due to religious reasons. Not only
was the famous quote, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live," applied
frequently, but paranormal powers called into question the very
foundations of many religions. (Suppose Moses was a paranormal. Worse
yet, Jesus.)
So, yes, an explanation for the weirdness is interesting to me. I like
it.
Filksinger
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:15:30 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 11:50 AM 12/11/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
>
>BG> I may be missing something here. Where in the Arkelos example does
>BG> it say that the Energy Blast that shatters the tree is done as a
>BG> 0-Phase action?
>
>Activation of a power is a 0-phase action.
>
>Presence attacks are no time actions.
You must be using a different printing of the book than I am, because
this is all mine has here, exactly as printed:
Example: Arkelos the mage, surrounded by 4 giant trolls, shouts
"Surrender or die!" and shatters a tree with an Energy Blast spell.
Arkelos has a PRE of 15 (15/5 = 3d6). He is exhibiting a violent action
(+1d6), but is at a combat disadvantage with 4 opponents (-1d6). Arkelos
has a previous reputation of being a powerful sorcerer (+1d6). He gets a
total of 3 + 1 - 1 + 1 = 4d6 for a Presence attack. Arkelos rolls, and
gets a total of 17. The trolls all have PRE of 15. Arkelos' PRE Attack
equals their base PRE, so the trolls hesitate and Arkelos can act first.
Now, either (as I say) we're using different sources, or one of us is
reading something wrongly.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:33:35 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 07:25 AM 12/10/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 10:39 AM 12/9/97 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote:
>>At 02:48 PM 12/9/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>>>Again, there is no official ruling. You are both right.
>>
>>In fact, to be more accurate, there's no such thing as an "official ruling"
>>in HERO. Steve Peterson says:
>>
>> "Our official position is that all rules are optional; each GM
>> should decide for themselves what rules to use. The rules in
>> the Hero System rulebook (which is included in Champions 4th
>> Edition) cover most situations pretty well. However, we've
>> presented many other rules in other books, either as variants
>> or rules for other situations not covered in the basic rules.
>> Whether or not those rules are used is up to the GM in each
>> case; we don't think that our opinion should be held over that
>> of an individual GM. Each GM should make their rule choices as
>> they see fit, to make the game suit their own style, and their
>> sense of what is fun. We tend to like most of the optional
>> rules we've presented, otherwise we wouldn't have presented
>> them. But that doesn't mean we use those rules all of the
>> time, or that all of us at Hero hold each of those rules in
>> the same esteem. Opinions vary, and that's as it should be, or
>> so we think."
>
> So, is that the official ruling? ;-]
>
Unofficially, yes.
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:38:54 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Hero System Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, TokyoMark wrote:
> >When several local people begain a "Big Trouble" styled-game and another
> >started a feudal Japan fantasy game, weapons got a major overhaul. STR
> >Mins were dropped across the board (it does not take a 15 STR to use a
> >katana one-handed) and damage dropped as well (katana 1d6+1).
>
> Good point.
>
> >
> >We also dropped OCV bonuses for most weapons, unless it was a 'fast'
> >weapon (like a rapier).
>
> I like this idea.
>
> >
> >So, the katana became a 1d6+1 HKA, with a STR Min of 10 or 7 (1 or 2
> >handed)
> >
> >The Ninja-to became a 1d6+1 HKA with a STR Min of 11/8 (1 or 2 handed)
>
> I can go along with this. Ninjato are close enough to katana to have about
> the same stats. No way they are 1/3 more effective.
Of course, I forgot to mention we kept the +1 Stun (rigid/heavy blade).
We asked the advice of one of the players, who is a taijutsu instructor
and studies 'ninja lore' as a hobby.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:49:23 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Sabotage
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 12:23 PM 12/11/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
>
>BG> And I do have rules on taking control of a vehicle; all the Sabotage
>BG> rules would add would be a way to plant a remote control receiver so
>BG> that the saboteur can use his device.
>
>KISS: keep it simple.
Whenever possible, absolutely. I personally consider it preferable to
build a whole new construction element (especially a Skill or an Advantage)
than have to twist the existing ones out of shape. In this case, though, I
think that'll be unnecessary; the existing rules should serve quite well,
and I'll probably spend more space explaining which ones to use than giving
new Skill Roll Modifiers and such.
(As an example, I would have preferred a simple +2 Advantage for Mental
Paralysis than the construct Steve Long used, especially since he was
already using one imported and one invented Advantage.)
>For explosives, Demolitions is the skill required to destroy the sabotaged
>thing. A failed roll means that the thing is only damaged. A simple
>Concealment roll tells whether or not the device is hidden from casual
>inspection.
This point (about the Demolitions failed roll) is a good one. I think
that the Sabotage section may end up being a little more detailed than I'd
originally planned.
For Demolitions, I think a successful Roll would do full damage with no
DEF, while a failed Roll would do half damage with DEF.
>For "critical systems failure", mechanics or electronics (or other
>appropriate skill) to have the system fail at a random time. If the
>sabateur wants the system to fail at a particular point -- after a given
>amount of time or at a given event -- assess a -5 penalty to the roll. If
>the roll fails with the -5 but would have succeeded without the penalty,
>the system may fail at a random time. A second mechanics or electronics
>skill roll tells whether or not the sabotage is concealed from casual
>inspection.
Try this one on for size: To fail at a specific point, the saboteur
must make a second Skill Roll of the same type as the basic Roll, but with
a penalty. If a specific amount of time is needed, the penalty is -1 per
step down the Time Chart from 1 segment. I'll make up a table giving
examples of specific other possibilities (such as when a specific system is
used for the nth time, with a straight Roll for the first time and -1 for
every 2x times).
>The "remote control trick" is a variation of "critical systems failure",
>though the SFX may require a Concealment skill roll rather than mechanics
>or electronics for concealment.
>
>Random failures should be modified by a character's Luck or Unluck.
Oh, absolutely. I already do that, in fact. I don't think I'll put
that particular point in TUSV, but I know of someone who is working on an
Ultimate Skill User book, and I'll pass on that idea.
>If the roll to conceal the sabotage succeeds, only characters that are
>actively searching for signs of sabotage, or those with special senses that
>can somehow detect the sabotage, will have a chance of noticing. If it
>fails, a normal Perception roll will reveal the tampering.
I'd say it requires either actively searching, or special senses *not
available to the saboteur* that could detect it. Otherwise, yes.
>Defending against sabotage could be skill levels that assess a penalty to
>the saboteur's rolls, or redundant systems (however you plan to implement
>that).
Probably Skill Levels, defined as Failsafe Systems.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:56:26 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: To Steven Brust Readers
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>>Teleports were most certainly used in combat! Never point-to-point within a
>Actually, Mellar (The Jhereg in question), didn't do the teleport at all.
Mostly b/c he was as lame-o a sorceror as Vlad. ;-) And unable to
concentrate b/c he'd just ruined all his carefully laid plans by stabbing
Aleria with a Morganti weapon.
>He stabbed Aliera, realized something was wrong. When Daymar tried to mind
>probe him, he ordered the body guard who was now Vlad to teleport them out.
> Vlad acted like he froze up, then Mellar ordered the other bodyguard to
>teleport them out. No one was attacking during this, so they were not
>fighting. I agree about the concentration. Vlad during the later fight
>comments Mellar would need 3-4 seconds to concentrate and tport out and he
>was not going to give him the time.
Right. So it's not exactly a 'non-combat' power. All that it really looks
like it needs is an 'extra phase' with 'concentration'. Not something you
can do during a sword fight, but stun your current opponant and you probably
can leave before he recovers.
>So, I still think tport is not
>something you want to try in the middle of combat.
Only if desparate.
> but if you don't get
>killed during the time you are trying it, it can be done. For some reason,
>no one wears more than light leather armor, so the odds are not with you.:)
Well, Vlad wouldn't b/c it would shoot his Stealth, and most of the other
main characters didn't wear armor b/c they were kick-ass swordsmen and
sorcerors. At one point I recall Aleria getting impaled on a sword but not
being bothered by it too much (kept right on kicking ass).
>I don't find anything that indicates Dragaerans were ill or disoriented by
>teleporting.
More of a 'grab your bearings' thing. Like if you're in a pitch black room
and all the sudden somebody turns on the light. You pause, generally.
>Yep, mind link was very common, with mind scan. There were also other
>detect spells to find people over wide distances and to trace teleports.
Once you've bought the basic Mind Scan for using Mind Link, it's fairly
cheap to extend the premise to make for location spells and teleport traces.
>Just about everyone was at least minorly psionic.
Yeah, but they had to be trained to use it.
>Aliera comments Easterns
>were given psionic abilities almost the equal of Dragaerans. It might be
>equal, Aliera might be biased;)
Aleria had rights to biases, she was the daughter of Verra, after all.
Superiority complex? Nah...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:56:27 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> I have a question for the masses, though. Would anyone like to see more
> "Cardboard Heroes" type of products? I don't think it would be too difficult
> to do, even as a one sheet insert in a book or as a one sheet tear-out.
> Thoughts?
YES!
YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!
Do you get the picture?
-Tim Gilberg
X-Sender: bastet@pop.iquest.net
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:04:22 -0500
From: TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net>
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
Cc: Hero System Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org>
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>> I can go along with this. Ninjato are close enough to katana to have about
>> the same stats. No way they are 1/3 more effective.
>
>Of course, I forgot to mention we kept the +1 Stun (rigid/heavy blade).
>We asked the advice of one of the players, who is a taijutsu instructor
>and studies 'ninja lore' as a hobby.
Well, everyone has their opinion:) Overall, I'd likely keep the +1 Stun,
but have it do less cutting damage than a katana. Sure the blade is heavy,
but not heavier than a hand and a half or two handed sword and neither of
those have the +1 stun mod.
TokyoMark
X-Sender: bastet@pop.iquest.net
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:04:22 -0500
From: TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net>
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
Cc: Hero System Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org>
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>> I can go along with this. Ninjato are close enough to katana to have about
>> the same stats. No way they are 1/3 more effective.
>
>Of course, I forgot to mention we kept the +1 Stun (rigid/heavy blade).
>We asked the advice of one of the players, who is a taijutsu instructor
>and studies 'ninja lore' as a hobby.
Well, everyone has their opinion:) Overall, I'd likely keep the +1 Stun,
but have it do less cutting damage than a katana. Sure the blade is heavy,
but not heavier than a hand and a half or two handed sword and neither of
those have the +1 stun mod.
TokyoMark
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:05:13 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
Subject: Crossover Adventures (Re: Going off on a little tangent)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> When I learned that Hero was going to not only start a new universe but
> a new game system as well, I was inspired to assemble notes for an
> adventure that would allow GMs to go directly from one to the other with a
> "logical" explanation. Entitled "Doomsday," it detailed what happens when
>
Hmm...Now there's an idea. Crossover's are a long time annoying staple of
comic books. But they
might not be so annoying in gaming modules. Perhaps a CU / San Angelo crossover
adventure
could be written.
Once San Angelo comes out, we will effectively have 4 published universes to
Champions:
CU (4th edition)
pre-4th edition CU, which had a diferent team as the champions.
Strike Force
San Angelo
And you consider New Millenium to be Champs, that makes 5.
With the execption of #2 which I think can't be touched for legal reasons
(correct?), all the others
could be used in crossovers...
Perhaps 'Heroic Adventures #3 could be a series of crossover adventures.
Hey, it's a thought...
Rook
Super Hero Links Page:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:09:37 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> >>VL> You can't use EB without the attack roll,
> >>Sure you can. Fire it in the air as part of a presence attack. It falls
> >>under "demonstration of a power".
> >Sounds good, except that it doesn't fit the description of the power. p.
> >65: "A character with this Standard Power can attack at range. To use an
> >Energy Blast, the character states his target and makes an Attack Roll."
> >Seems pretty straightforward -- a use of energy blast IS an attack, and
> >requires an Attack Roll.
>
> In the case of using it by firing it into the sky, the character makes
> an Attack Roll against the Sky (which would have a DCV well into the
> three-digit negative numbers, albeit with some pretty good Range Mods).
I dunno, if a GM made me roll dice to shoot the sky I look at him like he
was from Mars...
Then pick up my dice, shake them a bit, and throw them at him... :)
Then see if I had a dunce cap on hand. :)
--
Rook
Super Hero Links Page:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:13:39 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> Uh, no. This is why I keep saying that Long often seems like he doesn't
> understand the rules. The first computer construction on p. 99 is
> explicitly supposed to be a "conventional" computer; THEN he gives an
> example of the direct-character approach in the "mini-computer" following it.
Hmmmm. Yeah, I seem to recall that. Oh, well. It's still a
valid construction and it does have the advantages I listed -- ie, more
direct control of the skills, not having to interface at a possible
different DEX and SPD, etc; as well as no controller roll needed (Computer
Ops in my campaign). However, it is a waste of points, in almost all
cases. Chalk it up as missing the place in the BBB where Computers are
said to be purchased as followers. Quick, find it! I never knew where it
was 'till someone here pointed it out.
> > Hmmm. This rule really struck me as a collaborated addition by
> >the HeroGames editors fixing what they saw as a problem. I think it works
> >more like MindScan should, really.
>
> That would suggest the Hero Games editors have actual opinions about the
> game rules, which in the past hasn't seemed to be the case. :]
I've talked to Steve Long a little about his products, and he said
that the Hero editors were pretty involved in his projects, especially the
Ultimate series. For instance, the Mental Combat maneuvers were
Peterson's, not Long's. Long had his own that were bumped. (I have a
copy of those, BTW, if anyone is interested. Long said he wouldn't mind
them being distributed to the list.)
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:17:05 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
Subject: Re: San Angelo Origin of Powers (Re: Greetings)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> << yeah. . that's kinda the POINT. All those explanations are ALLOWED. . .
> BUT, IF you want something different... You have a nice, general concept at
> your disposal.. . .>>
>
> You've hit the nail on the head. Thanks!
>
> << the flux doesn't sound like it's going to be 'encountered' very often, just
> it's *results*, but still. . >>
>
> The way we've written the flux into the campaign world, it's a totally
> undetectable energy; merely a hypothesis of a small group of scholars and
> scientists (but we all know their theory is correct <G>).
Perhaps you could provide two or three of the 'opposing' views society has
created.
Like what is the churches explanation? The New Agers? An opposing scientific view?
A view from the psychological camps? Maybe even some obviously crackpot theories?
Perhaps throw in a few 'counter arguments' and then leave if undeclared as to
who is right.
--
Rook
Super Hero Links Page:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
X-Sender: jhebert@texas.net
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:26:19 -0600
From: Jeff Hebert <jhebert@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Greetings (Cardboard Heroes)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 12:49 PM 12/11/97 -0600, Sparx wrote:
>> I have a question for the masses, though. Would anyone like to see more
>>"Cardboard Heroes" type of products? I don't think it would be too difficult
>>to do, even as a one sheet insert in a book or as a one sheet tear-out.
>>Thoughts?
>
>Actually, Yes, I would love some more up to date and different cardboard
>heroes. They are cheap, easy to use, and it is nice to get 20+ cardboard vs
>one per minature. We use them simply because we did just get into the
>minature part of Champions and with players switching characters about every
>four to eight games it is cheaper as I said just to whip out a new cardboard
>then go buy a new minature. More please :) Take it easy and talk at you
later.
>
>Sparx
>
My friend and I do custom character markers for our whole squad. I could
assemble them and have them available for download if anyone would find
that helpful. You'd have to have some way to print them out in color,
though, so I don't know if it would actually be worthwhile or not...
Jeff
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jeff Hebert
jhebert@texas.net
Visit the home page of The Crusaders! --
http://lonestar.texas.net/~jhebert/crusaders.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:27:50 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> VL> * Activation of a power that requires an attack roll unavoidably
> VL> attaches a 1/2 Phase action to the 0-Phase action.
>
> Please cite something in the BBB that makes this connection. Also, please
> cite something in the BBB that says that Energy Blast *always* requires an
> attack roll.
Let's turn that one around, Rat, as you know there is no statement
with that *always*. Where in the BBB does it say that one can use EB *at
all* without an Attack Roll.
-Tim Gilberg
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:45:37 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>>>>> "VL" == Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> writes:
>VL> Nope. The problem is, Energy Blast requires more than a 0-Phase action
>VL> to activate. It requires a 0-Phase action AND AN ATTACK ROLL to
>VL> activate.
>
>It requires a half-phase action and an attack roll to attack with it, but
>it is still a power, and powers require a 0-phase action to activate unless
>they have the Extra Time Limitation. "Activate a power" does not equate to
>"make an attack" anywhere in the BBB. They cannot be equivalent because
>0-phase and half-phase actions occour at different times during one's
>action phase.
>
This is where I have problems with your logic. (There may be no real
problem, I'm just not getting it.) If I have Extra Time on my Energy
Blast, then, when it activates, I won't have the 1/2 Phase to attack with
it. I couldn't use it to hit someone for damage. Could you explain,
extending your prior arguments, how I *would*?
Thanks,
Jerry
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Avengers vs. X-Men
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:48:40 +0000 (GMT)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Oh pu-lease...
My favorite comic book character could take your favorite comic book
character anyday.
And my daddy could beat up your daddy to.
But as for actual comparrision, where the stats published in the Marvel RPG
official?
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:49:41 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Computer Questions
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
> I have constructed the base statistics for a computer. It is
>a normal computer, not an AI.
> I would like to give the computer some Disadvantages to lower
>it's cost. However, I've seen conflicting information in regards to
>how computers are handled in HERO.
> On a chart labeled General Computer Information in Champions it
>states:
> Normal Computers have:
> ...
> 3) No Psychological Disadvantages
>
> Under the section 'Normal Computers,' however, it states:
> ... They cannot have Disadvantages.
>
Well, that really doesn't seem contadictory, just unnecessarily redundant.
If it can have no Disadvantages, they should've just said that, instead of
making an assertion that it cannot have a specific type, as well.
> In the only other Champions book I have acquired, 'Underworld Enemies,'
>the write up includes the following for a Normal Computer known as
>'The Gallows' (pg. 44):
> Disadvantages
> 20 | Physical Limitation: Must obey creator's orders
> 20 | Physical Limitation: Computer
> 20 | Distinctive Features: Computer (Not Conc, Major Reaction)
> 10 | DNPC: Creator (As Powerful), 14-
>
<*GAG*> man, I'm glad I didn't see this before. Personally, I wouldn't
give *any* of these to a regular computer... *maybe* to an AI, but the
first would probably be a Psych. Lim.
OTOH, I could see giving Phys Lims like, "Cannot run games (5pt)," "16-bit
processor (10pt)" and others along those lines. What were you thinking of
for Disads?
- Jerry
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:57:32 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Link degression
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 07:24 PM 12/11/97 +0000, you wrote:
>On the phrase "CON Stunned"
>
>How many people just want to reach across the table and slap the
>person with a wet sea bass when they say that?
I lean more toward a pillowcase full of old polyedral dice, personally
----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:57:35 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Seeking Those Star Hero (II) Authors
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
I'm trying to find e-mail addresses for David Berge, Albert Deschesne,
and/or Shawn Wilson. These three guys authored a manuscript for a second
edition of Star Hero which has been posted to Red October Online for review
(I guess because they had a go-ahead to write it, though it never came
through for unspecified reasons).
On reviewing my own manscript for TUSV, I've been reminded that I've
used a number of rules from their mansucript. (What can I say? They're
good rules!) The problem is that, as far as I know, they don't know about
it yet, and I'd like to at least have emailed permission from one of them
to feel comfortable with putting the stuff into the final work.
Can anyone help me here?
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:00:49 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Sabotage
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 10:22 AM 12/10/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> What I'm leaning toward is this (to give a simplified version): The
>saboteur decides what he wants to do to the vehicle, and the GM assigns an
>appropriate Skill, just like a normal application. And, of course, there's
>a difficulty penalty for what the saboteur is trying to do:
>
> Disabling a Device: -1 per ten Active Points being shut off.
> Planting a Device (such as a bomb or remote control): -1 per ten Active
>Points being added.
> Weakening a Device (such as Burnout Rolls, Extra Time Limitation, etc.):
>-1 per -1/4 Limitation being imposed on a device.
>
I like the fact that it goes along with the "-1/10 Active Points" from the
RSR lim. I don't know how much the last one should be, tho... maybe -1/10
Real Points difference in the change? ie Tacking a "minor" lim on a larger
power is harder than putting it on a minor one. Weakening the motor
(Running or Flight) would probably be harder than weakening (to the same
extent) the radio. (Maybe. Just a thought.)
- Jerry
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 11 Dec 1997 17:03:57 -0500
Lines: 27
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "T" == TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net> writes:
>> That is interesting, considering that many ninja-to were converted from
>> katana.
T> Then why would the blade be heavier and straight?
The blade is not heavier, the whole weapon is heavier... and not all
ninja-to were straight.
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged
\ exposure to Happy Fun Ball.
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 11 Dec 1997 17:05:16 -0500
Lines: 25
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "VL" == Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> writes:
VL> To the best of my knowledge, the video game doesn't make too many
VL> claims as to style,
You should read CAPCOM's literature about the game, because they do call
Zangief's and Blanka's styles "Sambo" and "Capoeira", respectively.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds.
\
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:09:49 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Chaos Theory
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Well, with the manuscript for TUSV almost out of the way, the time is
coming for me to prepare for what comes next.
Currently on the slate, I will be doing parallel production of
"Northwest Champions," which will cover the states of Oregon, Washington,
and Idaho for the [original] Champions Universe; and an update on VOICE.
I had originally expected to be turning to a PRIMUS update, but someone
else (I won't say who at this time) appears to have snatched the project
from me. While this was somewhat frustrating to me, this does mean that,
one way or another, you will definitely see a PRIMUS update in the
relatively near future.
However, it's also occurred to me to see what I can do even after that.
What I'm thinking of doing is a full campaign setting, the description of
which is below.
CHAOS THEORY
Imagine a world where conspiracies are everywhere. The
military-industrial complex controls all applications of technology.
Deposed royalty seeks to retake their lost thrones. Aliens secretly live
among us, posing as our neighbors. Demon-worshipping sorcerers plot dire
ends for our cherished social institutions. Psychics manipulate our
leaders' decisions from afar. Dragons, vampires, and werewolves pass
themselves off as normal humans.
Oh, did I mention that this is a comedy?
That's right! Ever wonder what "The X-Files" would have been like with
Mel Brooks as producer? Could James Bond take on the cast of "Third Rock
>From the Sun"? What if "1984" had been rewritten by Douglas Adams? And
how would the film "JFK" have looked if it had been directed by the Zucker
brothers, with Leslie Nielson as Jim Garrison?
In this parody of paranoid conspiracy stories, the PCs are all agents
for the Global Organization for Order and Decency (that's right, they
really are the Forces of GOOD). They are the only people who are aware of
the conspiracies that threaten to topple civilization as we know it. The
PCs are guided by a Handler who never leaves the complex, and a shadowy
Director who rarely leaves his office except to congratulate the PCs on a
job well done: "Thank you. Thank you very much." (He comes across as a
hound dog, but is really a big ol' teddy bear.)
This is a world where the technocrats know your every move, but are
helpless without their TV remote. Where psychic powers really can be
blocked by wrapping your head in aluminum foil. Where one might find
oneself being chased by a pack of werewolves, at least until one runs past
a fire hydrant.
The full book will include a Package Deal and equipment lists for GOOD,
full write-ups of all six conspiracies, an introductory adventure featuring
all six conspiracies, a shorter adventure for each conspiracy, and several
scenario briefs.
What kind of feedback I get from the list for this will directly impact
whether or not I do this book. (It may also influence the size and
content.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:11:25 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Tokyo Mark wrote:
>>
>> Funny... I generally prefer to have the PCs be a mid-level hero group.
>> The X-Men rather than the Avengers, so to speak. (Well, without the
>> pretension and angst.:))
>
>Maybe, but the X-Men have fought the Avengers and did just fine, so I'm
>not sure if I agree they are not roughly the same level. Mind you, both
>teams change so much, at any given moment either team might have a huge
>edge.:)
>
Especially when the Avengers were "dead." : ) And, then again, no one
knows the "new" line-up yet... And besides, are talking *just* the X-Men,
or including X-Factor, Generation X, EXcaliber,
SupercalifragilisticXpialidocious?
What about the people who are associated with them? X-Man, Cable, and the
other Nate Greys that are out there?
And, is it just the current roster of Avengers? 'cause the Beast could be
in either group... and then, there's the defunct West Coast Avengers. And
then there's the Great Lakes Avengers... oh, wait, during the Heroes Reborn
thing, they bought into the Thunderbolts franchise... now they're the
Lightning Rods.* Ah, well...
* see whatever issue of Deadpool that was...
Okay, Comic Geek mode off...
- Jerry
(who's still waiting for Busiek's Avengers...)
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 11 Dec 1997 17:17:22 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "GS" == Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org> writes:
GS> "To use an Energy Blast, the character states his target and makes an
GS> Attack Roll." (HSR p.65)
So, we have a specific case of Energy Blast always reqiring an attack roll.
How about RKA, Flash, etc.,?
What about the classic schtick of firing one's six-shooter in the air to
get everyone's attention? Is that an attack? If so, what is the target?
What gets hit by this attack.
There is no target. Westerns ignore the fact that the bullet will
eventually come back down as fast as it was fired up. There is no target,
there is no DCV, there is no attack roll.
GS> "An Instant Power lasts just long enough for the character using the
GS> power to make an Attack Roll." (HSR p.52)
I do not dispute this, nor does it contradict me when I reiterate the BBB
that activation of a power is a 0-phase action. Use of a power or powers
to make an attack is a half-phase attack action -- technically it is the
act of making the attack, not the use of the power, that constitutes the
attack action. You activate the Energy Blast as a 0-phase action, and use
it in an attack as a half-phase action. The EB ceases to exist at the end
of the attack action. Standard Champions combat timing.
The dispute is whether or not an Energy Blast and Flash activated as
0-phase actions may be used as a single half-phase attack action. If they
may with a limitation then they should without that limitation, because a
limitation is *supposed* to restrict the usefulness of a power.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
\
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:20:12 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Link degression
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, Vox Ludator! wrote:
> >On the phrase "CON Stunned"
> >
> >How many people just want to reach across the table and slap the
> >person with a wet sea bass when they say that?
>
> It's a necessary evil. I've gotten into the habit of saying it myself often
> just to avoid the (what should be nonexistent) confusion with getting KO'd.
On the other extreme, I've never felt any need to bass-slap on account of
the fact that I've never _heard_ the phrase.
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:21:42 EST
Subject: Re: Things I expect in a Champions supplement
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<< Obviously there should be some kind of plot that could be interwoven with
an ongoing campiagn, or played as a one-off (dead easy, huh?), supervillain
cast and possibly some good, well-developed NPC's that can be reused. >>
These are all things that are planned for the San Angelo line. ONe of our
plans is to re-use certain NPCs in adventures and such, with occasional
"revisions" appearing. Not so many that folks feel that they are simply buying
new books with old villains all the time, but often enough to inject some
continuity (and an ongoing story line) into the series.
<< ...I was sure they hoped to follow a policy of only publishing adventures
that would add something to the game,... a bit of added value. >>
This, too, is part of what we hope to accomplish with the new line.
<< would people like to see a mini-comic using stock characters with each
adventure?? I know _loads_ of would be comic book artists who would sell their
soul to get the opportunity for such exposure......>>
And I know one publisher of 4th Ed. material who would love to find these
artists! :D
Mark @ GRG
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:21:46 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
> << Funny... I generally prefer to have the PCs be a mid-level hero group.
> The X-Men rather than the Avengers, so to speak. >>
>
> Keep in mind, though, that I didn't address their power level, only their
> status as the city's main heroes. ;)
Well, that's what I was referring to. (I mean, with the ridiculous
power-ups they've gotten in recent years, you could almost make a case
for the X-Men being close to Avengers class in power too. Still not
comparable in importance, though.)
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:21:46 EST
Subject: Re: Things I expect in a Champions supplement
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< I think I would like it PROVIDED it DID NOT shorten the amount of
other, useful info, provided to me.>>
A page or two of fiction to go along with the material in the sourcebook,
perhaps?
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:21:48 EST
Subject: Re: San Angelo Ethnic makeup
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< Yeah, the city. hey, the NPC's too. I get tired of seeing mono-ethnic
stuff. It
fits if the location is mono-ethnic, but not in a place like New York or
California. >>
We have established San Angelo as a diverse city. For example, the Justice
Foundation (the sample PC hero team in the book) consists of:
Corona: A white female with heat powers, who is also an attorney and could
be interpreted as living an alternative lifestyle. She's also the team leader.
Lotus: A Chinese-American brick (but certainly doesn't *look* like one <G>)
Azteca: A Mexican-American martial artist
Savant: An African-American mentalist, and the senior member of the group
Cavalier: An Anglo (European-American?) powered armor hero.
<< Hey, there's a dif. Just wanted to know if you knew that. I'm not asking
for super
detail here,but I don't want to see em all get grouped into being a bunch of
drunk
mexicans in the back of an old pickup doing 35 on the freeway either. :) (Hey,
it's a description I've heard used to label anyone speaking spanish, go
figure...) >>
And a very inaccurate one, I know. San Angelo is very diverse, and we
mention quite a few nationalities and cultures in the book as far as
describing the demoigraphics of the city. Heck, we even list the percentages
of each ethnicity and religion for the city *and* the unincorporated county!
<< You go on to say things that make me feel as if you're giving it a good
effort, if
that holds, I'll be satisfied. >>
In that case, I'm quite confident that you'll be satisfied. ;)
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:21:53 EST
Subject: Re: GRG, San Angelino, and even Sengoku (was Re: Greetings)
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< Where there is no rationale behind "Super-Powers", They just exist. Where
heroes have morals, but are not perfect. They make mistakes but understand it
when they do.>>
That's easy to do with the San Angelo line. Just drop the whole Flux issue
from the campaign. ;)
<< Any plans to expand Sengoku out to China and Korea. I'd kill for a game
that did a good job of showing 'medevil Korea'. I get so tired of reminding
people it exists and played so major a role in the history of the region.>>
We have a Chinese sourcebook in the works (working title is "The Middle
Kingdom"), but nothing in the works for Korea. We'd *like* to do a Korea
sourcebook for Sengoku, but haven't had anyone come forward to write it yet.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:21:56 EST
Subject: Re: Greetings
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
<< Good question. Did you say 5th Ed.? If so, listen to this group frequently,
and take lots of notes.>>
Is anyone on this list willing to create a FAQ of sorts, with all of the
points raised re: 5th Edition listed concisely? I'll be honest, I don't have
the time to do it or I would.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:21:59 EST
Subject: Re: Greetings
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
<< Funny... I generally prefer to have the PCs be a mid-level hero group.
The X-Men rather than the Avengers, so to speak. >>
Keep in mind, though, that I didn't address their power level, only their
status as the city's main heroes. ;)
But you're right, it would be easy to change.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:22:01 EST
Subject: Re: Greetings
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< Hmm. For somebody who doesn't read much comics, you certainly know the
right name to drop to get a positive response.:)>>
Well, it's one of the few comics I read with any semblence of frequency. It
was also one of the inspirations for the author of San Angelo, Kurt's a heck
of a nice guy, and we're running a SA ad in a future issue of Astro City. What
does that tell you? ;)
Mark @ GRG
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:26:58 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: RE: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> >As far as other's comments go about making you use them linked powers
> >proportionately, that's potentially a very good idea for a house rule ...
> >so long as one is not forced to use the linked power when one uses the
> >non-limited power it is linked to.
>
> Now, hold on there. That's exactly what the Linked Limitation *does.*
> It says so right there in the description.
No, it says that can only use the Linked Power when the non-limited Power
is in use. It neither says nor implies anywhere that the Linked Power
_must_ be activated when the non-limited Power is in use.
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:29:13 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
> One of the things we're planning for our San Angelo line are books which
> contain a variety of material, all centered around a common theme or topic.
> For example, in our PART sourcebook (planned for next summer), we're including
> some new rules and skills, tips on GMing PART scenarios, tips on playing PART
> PCs, new PART equipment (weapons, armor, tools, etc.), new PART vehicles, some
> short adventures, NPCs, supervillains, etc. In short, some material for
> everybody, players and GMs alike.
Well, that's nice. Now what the heck is "PART"?:)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:43:53 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, Tokyo Mark wrote:
> > Um. I really think it depends if the Avenger Big Boys show up or
> > not. They have legit Cosmic-level heroes, the X-Men don't. There are a
> > few on that team that could take on the entire X-Men team, let's say Thor
> > and Iron Man (OK, he's elsewhere, now, but . . ) for starters.
>
> I think Thor was around for one of the battles, but could be wrong. The
> big edge the X-Men have is all those mentalists. It's already been shown
> Rogue can absorb Thor fully, so he's out of action.
True, but given who ludicrously inconsistent this is with the limitations
that have later been imposed on Rogue's abilities, I'm inclined to ignore
it. Even if we assume she can do it, she's done it before, so Thor's going
to be expecting it. What are her odds of successfully making skin-to-skin
contact, then?
> Wolverine matches up well with Capt. A.
If you're looking for match-ups which demonstrate how completely
outclassed the X-Men are, I agree.:)
And of course, there's always the Quasar problem... he's a full-fledged
Avenger, has power rivalling the Silver Surfer's, and is immune to mental
manipulation (if the Overmind couldn't touch him, I don't think the
X-mentalists have any chance). You could clone each of the X-Men off 5
times and have them gang-pile him, and I still don't think they'd have
much chance.
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:01:30 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 03:50 PM 12/11/97 +1000, Michael Jones wrote:
>At 12:11 AM 12/11/97 -0500, Tokyo Mark wrote:
>>>
>>> Funny... I generally prefer to have the PCs be a mid-level hero group.
>>> The X-Men rather than the Avengers, so to speak. (Well, without the
>>> pretension and angst.:))
>>
>>Maybe, but the X-Men have fought the Avengers and did just fine, so I'm
>>not sure if I agree they are not roughly the same level. Mind you, both
>>teams change so much, at any given moment either team might have a huge
>>edge.:)
>>
>It's also the outlaw/sanctioned thing. . if the x-men weren't so
>busy whining and actually FOUGHT CRIME occasionally, they'd
>probably have a 'professional, superior' rivalry with the avengers. .
>then again the avengers don't fight crime at the mo either. . .
>is all that 'hero's recycled' stuff OVER yet??
>
Yep. Then they did "Heroes Return" a four-ish mini-series by Peter David.
Spidey was involved. Now they're starting the four books over at #1. FF
#'s 1 and 2 are already out, Cap is gonna have #2 out soon, Iron Man #1
came out yesterday (good read) and Avengers #1 will be out in 2 weeks.
Busiek is writing Iron Man and the Avengers, so I'll be getting them...
Lobdell, an X-writer, is on FF, and the old creative team (Waid, is it?) is
on Cap. All look good.
ObChamp: I've taken both approaches with my groups; the mutant outlaws, and
the sanctioned super-team. And the one in the middle, city's major heroes,
but not nation's best. All seemed to work okay, although they have
different feels.
How much is "National Sanction" worth? Same as Federal Police Powers? I
can't remember what being an Avenger gets you. (Although it gets you
access to SHIELD files, at least.)
- Jerry
Comments: Authenticated sender is <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
From: "Michael Nunn" <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
Organization: Rising Force Publications
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:02:08 +0000
Subject: Champions 5th Edition
Reply-to: mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net
Priority: normal
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
I am going to go out on a limb here, but I don't want to see a "Whole
New Champions" in 5th edition. In fact I don't really want to see a
5th edition, unless the main thrust of it is addition and improvement
over 4th ed.
I like 4th edition, no it's not perfect, but what I don't like I
modify, and what I don't like and what Vox doesn't like could be
completely different. One of the great things about Hero is that is
is so easy to gear for your own game.
Just my humble opinion...
Michael
"Herozine" Rising Force Publications "SUPER" RPG 'zine,
check out our web site at:
http://users.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm
Comments: Authenticated sender is <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
From: "Michael Nunn" <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
Organization: Rising Force Publications
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:02:13 +0000
Subject: Cardboard Heroes
Reply-to: mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net
Priority: normal
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>> I have a question for the masses, though. Would anyone like to see more
>>"Cardboard Heroes" type of products? I don't think it would be too difficult
>>to do, even as a one sheet insert in a book or as a one sheet tear-out.
>>Thoughts?
A couple of issues back we did a sheet of blank cardboard heros, I
used the template drawings we had been running and made a big sheet of
them, so you could color in your PC's costume.
On Jeff Dee's web site he has a couple of sheets of V&V style chip
counters you can download.
Michael
"Herozine" Rising Force Publications "SUPER" RPG 'zine,
check out our web site at:
http://users.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:09:55 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 12:49 AM 12/11/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> > Funny... I generally prefer to have the PCs be a mid-level hero group.
>> > The X-Men rather than the Avengers, so to speak. (Well, without the
>> > pretension and angst.:))
>>
>> Maybe, but the X-Men have fought the Avengers and did just fine, so I'm
>> not sure if I agree they are not roughly the same level. Mind you, both
>> teams change so much, at any given moment either team might have a huge
>> edge.:)
>
> Um. I really think it depends if the Avenger Big Boys show up or
>not. They have legit Cosmic-level heroes, the X-Men don't. There are a
>few on that team that could take on the entire X-Men team, let's say Thor
>and Iron Man (OK, he's elsewhere, now, but . . ) for starters.
>
I think he was talking current rosters... yes, the Silver Surfer has
worked with the Avengers. Thor is a good example, but I'm still not sure.
You counting Charles Xavier, Cable, Jean Grey, and X-Man (Nate Grey) for
the X's? Most of them touch on cosmic... although not literally so.
And Iron Man is back. Thor was gone, too, btw.
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:15:14 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Tokyo Mark wrote:
>> Um. I really think it depends if the Avenger Big Boys show up or
>> not. They have legit Cosmic-level heroes, the X-Men don't. There are a
>> few on that team that could take on the entire X-Men team, let's say Thor
>> and Iron Man (OK, he's elsewhere, now, but . . ) for starters.
>
>I think Thor was around for one of the battles, but could be wrong. The
>big edge the X-Men have is all those mentalists. It's already been shown
>Rogue can absorb Thor fully, so he's out of action. Wolverine matches up
>well with Capt. A. I think it's alot more even than you might think.
>
I agree with your assessment but... wouldn't *completely* absorbing Thor
put Rogue out, too? She did this to Juggy in... um, Spider-Man Team-Up
#100(?). She went berserk, and had absorbed his memories, too. They had
to put her down, then.
>And being Cosmic is not all it's cracked up to be, Spidey beat up a Herald
>of Galactus once (Firelord).:)
>
Ick. yeah. Cosmic is just an SFX for being real powerful, generally.
Don't forget that the Fantastic Four got their powers from "Cosmic Rays."
Or has that been retconned? : )
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:17:57 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Sabotage
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Rick Holding wrote:
> But perhaps you are missing the greatest act of sabotage. Taking
>control of the vehicle. Now, that is where the villian has the most fun.
>Mechanics, electronics, system ops and a fair bit of time. The negatives
>would depend on the relative level of technology of the vehicle, I suppose.
>Try considering a normal vehicle as base (what, 20 to 30 points?) and apply
>-1 per 10 points above that base. Countering that would probarly be several
>people working on it (complemetry rolls) and maybe a decent amount of time.
>Other modifiers could be added both positive and negative for research time
>and effort spent.
>
Harkening back to "Batman Forever" perhaps? Yep, the Penguin took control
of the Batmobile with ol' Batty still in it.
The other thing is... did we ever reach a consensus on how much an
"Everyman" Vehicle is worth? I liked the part about the multiple of your
wealth...
- Jerry
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:20:52 -0800
From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell)
Subject: Re: Things I expect in a Champions supplement
X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
You know, when I saw this subject I thought it was going to
be a threat about typos and math errors.
-Sam
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:28:14 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 04:26 AM 12/11/97 EST, Mark@GRG wrote:
><< Are there any plans for more superhero miniatures in the foreseeable
>future? >>
>
> That's a question for Hero Games, I'm afraid. I don't know of any plans for
>more Champions figs. Sorry.
>
> I have a question for the masses, though. Would anyone like to see more
>"Cardboard Heroes" type of products? I don't think it would be too difficult
>to do, even as a one sheet insert in a book or as a one sheet tear-out.
>Thoughts?
>
I think this'd be a *great* idea. They are generally easier to keep track
of then miniatures, and lighter, easier to transport, etc.
And I saw some talk of this on the GURPS newsgroup a while back. It was
well received there, anyway.
- Jerry
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:31:57 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage (Going off on a little tangent)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, Tokyo Mark wrote:
> > Nice phrasing... makes one wonder exactly what Vox did to Steve to get him
> > to make said ruling.:) ("Reverse that ruling or I'll make you throw out
> > the Hero System for a fixed power list system and rework the Champions U
> > to emulate a style of comics which not only sucks but is dying in the
> > marketplace!" Oh wait... they actually _did_ that...)
>
> Heh.:) Well, if you mean books not based on the Golden Age, I have to
> disagree.
I don't. (How many "based on the Golden Age" books are there out there?
Now, if you want to talk Silver Age, that's different.)
> As far as I know they are doing pretty well in the market
> place. If you mean the 'blood drenched spiked hair guys and bad girls
> with big guns' that the press release talked about, yep, it's hurting.
Yeah, that's what I'm talking about - the Image-style stuff (which is of
course a bad over-generalization considering some of the things Image has
published, but hopefully you know what I mean).
> But I didn't see alot of that in C:TNM.
No? To be honest, I didn't read too much of the new background... that
terrible, terrible art was enough of an immediate turn-off that I wasn't
interested in looking farther.
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:33:06 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> > You _can_ track down the interesting stuff in the library. If they had just
> > stuck to a few arts and done them in detail, you wouldn't have that.
>
> Steve should have listed his source material somewhere.
<nod> Really, this should be SOP for any RPG supplement.
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:35:30 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Vox Ludator! wrote:
> Seriously, this was always something that annoyed me about previous 4E
> products, where they advanced the timeline on their own schedule and assumed
> that the Champions (or whatever other hero group the author liked best) have
> already run through all their modules.
Well, maybe, but who pays any attention to the "official" Champions
Universe timeline anyway?
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Mail-Copies-To: never
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "JD" == Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> writes:
JD> This is where I have problems with your logic. (There may be no real
JD> problem, I'm just not getting it.) If I have Extra Time on my Energy
JD> Blast, then, when it activates, I won't have the 1/2 Phase to attack
JD> with it. I couldn't use it to hit someone for damage. Could you
JD> explain, extending your prior arguments, how I *would*?
You would not. "Extra Time" is a limitation that makes it take longer than
a 0-phase action to activate a power. If you have an extra half-phase
activation time requirement on your EB, it requires an extra half-phase
action to activate it. Once active you may use it per standard combat time
requirements.
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Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:39:08 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Vox Ludator! wrote:
> Nope. The problem is, Energy Blast requires more than a 0-Phase action to
> activate. It requires a 0-Phase action AND AN ATTACK ROLL to activate. You
> can't use EB without the attack roll, and making the attack roll ends your
> phase.
You're being overly literal IMO. If an actual _Combat Maneuver_ isn't
necessarily an attack action (re the example on BBB152), I don't see why
an Energy Blast has to be.
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
Mail-Copies-To: never
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>>>>> "VL" == Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> writes:
>> You should read CAPCOM's literature about the game, because they do call
>> Zangief's and Blanka's styles "Sambo" and "Capoeira", respectively.
VL> Even if these characters know these styles, it doesn't mean every move
VL> they perform was learned from them.
CAPCOM still calls the styles "Sambo" and "Capoeira" and "Shotokan Karate"
and "Wushu" and "Kabbadi" and "Special Forces Training". They may be wrong
for doing so, but that is what CAPCOM does, so that is what White Wolf did.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Mail-Copies-To: never
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>>>>> "VL" == Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> writes:
VL> PAGE SIXTY-FIVE, PARAGRAPH FOUR, SENTENCE TWO (put your finger on it
VL> and count, I don't want you to miss it again): "To use an Energy Blast,
VL> the character states his target and makes an Attack Roll".
Then, like other specific instructions for powers -- such as the use of
Dispell against an incoming attack -- it is unique to Energy Blast, because
it appears under the description of the power, not in a general section. I
do not have to make an attack roll to use other powers that does not
specifically require an attack roll -- which is most of them -- if I do not
attack with those powers.
Now, since you have decided that the Arkelos example is wonky and not to be
used as canon, I have decided to treat that aberration under Energy Blast
as an aberration. It makes use of the so-called "attack powers" more
consistant with each other and the rest of the powers in the book --
specifically being that it is the act of making an attack that is the
attack action, not the activation of a power.
And this fits with Steve Peterson's broadened definition of attack:
The definition of "attack" should be broadened to read "any action that
ends your Phase." This includes moving more than half your movement,
dodging, blocking, aborting to a defensive action, or taking any action
that requires more than a half-Phase to perform while doing nothing
else.
Activation -- NOT USE -- of a power, being a 0-phase action, does not end
your action phase. Using a power as an attack *does* end your action
phase. Using a power for something other than an attack does *NOT* end
your action phase.
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:57:35 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Crossover Adventures (Re: Going off on a little tangent)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 01:05 PM 12/11/97 -0800, Rook wrote:
>> When I learned that Hero was going to not only start a new universe but
>> a new game system as well, I was inspired to assemble notes for an
>> adventure that would allow GMs to go directly from one to the other with a
>> "logical" explanation. Entitled "Doomsday," it detailed what happens when
>>
>
> Hmm...Now there's an idea. Crossover's are a long time annoying staple of
>comic books. But they
>might not be so annoying in gaming modules. Perhaps a CU / San Angelo
crossover
>adventure
>could be written.
> Once San Angelo comes out, we will effectively have 4 published
universes to
>Champions:
>CU (4th edition)
>pre-4th edition CU, which had a diferent team as the champions.
>Strike Force
>San Angelo
>
>And you consider New Millenium to be Champs, that makes 5.
>
>With the execption of #2 which I think can't be touched for legal reasons
>(correct?), all the others
>could be used in crossovers...
While I do take the New Champions Universe as within the same flow, I
consider pre-4th Edition to be the same as 4th Edition. The universe
described in the old Champions comics and related materials was, to my mind
at least, a wholly separate universe that, like you say, can't be touched.
OTOH one could always do adaptations of other published superhero
worlds. The Alert Force Universe (a fantastic DC Heroes world published on
the web; it's on my Hero Links Page and on the Circle of Heroes) is one
good example. I'd love to gather together Champions stats for the Heroes
Unlimited characters (though I'd have to buy the books first).
> Perhaps 'Heroic Adventures #3 could be a series of crossover adventures.
Naw, I think #3 is supposed to be Fantasy Hero.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:59:27 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 05:21 PM 12/11/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< Funny... I generally prefer to have the PCs be a mid-level hero group.
>The X-Men rather than the Avengers, so to speak. >>
>
> Keep in mind, though, that I didn't address their power level, only their
>status as the city's main heroes. ;)
In other words, they may be San Angelo's main hero team, but they're
probably not the premier team in the whole world, right?
---
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Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:04:18 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 01:09 PM 12/11/97 -0800, Rook wrote:
> I dunno, if a GM made me roll dice to shoot the sky I look at him like he
>was from Mars...
>Then pick up my dice, shake them a bit, and throw them at him... :)
>
> Then see if I had a dunce cap on hand. :)
Unless, of course, it's a comedy campaign. How would you like to be the
owner of a character whose main claim to fame was that he once shot into
the sky, and missed?
---
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Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:18:07 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Sabotage
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 05:00 PM 12/11/97 -0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>At 10:22 AM 12/10/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>> What I'm leaning toward is this (to give a simplified version): The
>>saboteur decides what he wants to do to the vehicle, and the GM assigns an
>>appropriate Skill, just like a normal application. And, of course, there's
>>a difficulty penalty for what the saboteur is trying to do:
>>
>> Disabling a Device: -1 per ten Active Points being shut off.
>> Planting a Device (such as a bomb or remote control): -1 per ten Active
>>Points being added.
>> Weakening a Device (such as Burnout Rolls, Extra Time Limitation, etc.):
>>-1 per -1/4 Limitation being imposed on a device.
>>
>I like the fact that it goes along with the "-1/10 Active Points" from the
>RSR lim. I don't know how much the last one should be, tho... maybe -1/10
>Real Points difference in the change? ie Tacking a "minor" lim on a larger
>power is harder than putting it on a minor one. Weakening the motor
>(Running or Flight) would probably be harder than weakening (to the same
>extent) the radio. (Maybe. Just a thought.)
Someone else, in a direct email, made a similar point, and it was in
fact my first instinct. As the same person pointed out, though, this would
be rather difficult for most folks to calculate, especially on the fly.
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Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:20:38 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Sabotage
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 06:17 PM 12/11/97 -0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>Rick Holding wrote:
>> But perhaps you are missing the greatest act of sabotage. Taking
>>control of the vehicle. Now, that is where the villian has the most fun.
>>Mechanics, electronics, system ops and a fair bit of time. The negatives
>>would depend on the relative level of technology of the vehicle, I
suppose.
>>Try considering a normal vehicle as base (what, 20 to 30 points?) and apply
>>-1 per 10 points above that base. Countering that would probarly be
several
>>people working on it (complemetry rolls) and maybe a decent amount of
time.
>>Other modifiers could be added both positive and negative for research time
>>and effort spent.
>>
>Harkening back to "Batman Forever" perhaps? Yep, the Penguin took control
>of the Batmobile with ol' Batty still in it.
That was what made me first think of remote controls -- that, and an
episode of the old Batman TV show where ol' Batty took control of the
Batmobile with (I think) the Joker at the wheel. (I don't remember for
sure; it may have been the Batcycle he was controlling, or some such.)
>The other thing is... did we ever reach a consensus on how much an
>"Everyman" Vehicle is worth? I liked the part about the multiple of your
>wealth...
I think what was finally arrived at was 20 points, plus the point value
of your wealth. Anyway, that's what I've put in the book.
---
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X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:23:53 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> I've talked to Steve Long a little about his products, and he said
>that the Hero editors were pretty involved in his projects, especially the
>Ultimate series. For instance, the Mental Combat maneuvers were
>Peterson's, not Long's. Long had his own that were bumped. (I have a
>copy of those, BTW, if anyone is interested. Long said he wouldn't mind
>them being distributed to the list.)
>
I'd like to see them, even if you sent them to me privately. I haven't
seen TUM's, but I have the old Champs II book, with some manuevers in it.
I've been thinking of implementing them in my campaign.
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:38:47 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Computer Questions
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
> Well, this character is from the future. Only he can access it's
>data banks, and even only then with voice recognition and a passcode.
>Otherwise, it's programmed to download all of it's information into
>a sub routines that locks itself shut. The computer has certain
>information that could be harmful to the time stream. It's programmed
>with information of things yet to come, but cannot release that information
>before that time. If worse comes to worse, it will download it's information
>as above, or erase the information. It also has mission data (for future
>missions, already programmed into it), it's monitored by the group who
>sent the character back along with the character, who has been
>'brain edited.' It's programmed to 'fix' any mess ups in the time
>stream (i.e. cover the agents tracks).
>
ew. Anyway, putting my distaste for time travel aside, I think that the
suggestion that someone had (and someone else refuted) of putting this as a
Focus might help. It's a personal Focus, and would give lots of KS about
"past" history... although this might have to be bought as precognition,
depending on the GM. Wouldn't the character be monitored moreso than the
computer? And how would it 'fix' the timestream? Didn't you say it wasn't
AI? Maybe it leads the character to fixing it, I'm not too sure what
you're getting at here. Maybe the Watcher has NCI, and therefore has
limited control over what the computer tells the PC, which makes him fix
the timestream?
- Jerry
I'm posting this to the group, because you *will* get a bunch of answers,
which'll give you more insight than just mine.
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:43:54 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>>>>> "JD" == Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> writes:
>
>JD> This is where I have problems with your logic. (There may be no real
>JD> problem, I'm just not getting it.) If I have Extra Time on my Energy
>JD> Blast, then, when it activates, I won't have the 1/2 Phase to attack
>JD> with it. I couldn't use it to hit someone for damage. Could you
>JD> explain, extending your prior arguments, how I *would*?
>
>You would not. "Extra Time" is a limitation that makes it take longer than
>a 0-phase action to activate a power. If you have an extra half-phase
>activation time requirement on your EB, it requires an extra half-phase
>action to activate it. Once active you may use it per standard combat time
>requirements.
>
First off, thanks for the response.
Secondly, you can't take "Extra Time" for just an extra 1/2 Phase. The
smallest increment is "Full Phase." So, it takes a Full Phase to turn this
Power on, and then I don't have the 1/2 Phase you say I need to target it.
So... it makes Energy Blast, Flash, et al useless for attacking?
How about Dark Seraph in Classic Enemies? Did they goof on him?
Not trying to be antagonistic, just questioning your argument.
- Jerry
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:18:34 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: To Steven Brust Readers
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 41
Tokyo Mark wrote:
>
> I've been writing up some info for the fantasy world of Steven Brust's
> Vlad Taltos for a possible future campaign (And because it's one of my
> favorite worlds).
>
> I'm curious to know, how would people write up sorcery from that world?
> I've been debating VVP v. Multipower. Since sorcery technically is just
> drawing on power from the Orb and using it with a skill roll, VVP seems
> like the best option, but for a fantasy game simulating the effects from
> the book is very expensive. Teleports of a couple of hundred miles are
> not uncommon, even for a less skilled sorcerer. I'm tempted to resort to
> house rules.
>
> Witchcraft is a little easier, since it has alot of built in limitations
> (Gestures, incant, extra time, spell components), and is so flexible it
> almost has to be a VVP.
>
> Thoughts or opinions?
>
> TokyoMark
-- It may not be as bad as you think. The teleports were never used with-in
combat as htus could be considered as non combat teleports only. This would
mean lots of non combat multiples with very little in the way of basic
teleport. A single floating location gotten by the use of telepathy and a
couple of extra increases of mass. The only thing that could hike the price up
would be useable by others. I thought of on others but no examples were ever
shown of somebody else being teleported against their will.
Most of the other effects were standard attacks with strange special
effects. Of course, there was the teleport block (small hardened force wall
transparent to energy and physical?), the block to stop resurrection and
resurrection itself. (Anybody want to restart the bringing back the dead
debate?)
The link to the orb was a right of the nobility (2 or 5 point perk) and
was used as the local clock (absolute time sense). To use sorcery required
that the link be there (-1/4 limit) and could be blocked by a special rock or
if the orb was in the land of the dead. Oh, yea. The use of teleport on
Easteners made them want to barf.
Witchcraft on the other hand was ritualistic, required components for
the most part and the use of a familiar to handle some of the more extreme
energy requirements. And there was no spur of the moment casting. Players
would need to have a pre-prepared list of their "spells" and inventing new
spells was an experience.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:22:10 -0800
From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell)
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
-> From ratinox@peorth.gweep.net Thu Dec 11 16:01:19 1997
->
-> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
->
-> >>>>> "VL" == Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> writes:
->
-> VL> PAGE SIXTY-FIVE, PARAGRAPH FOUR, SENTENCE TWO (put your finger on it
-> VL> and count, I don't want you to miss it again): "To use an Energy Blast,
-> VL> the character states his target and makes an Attack Roll".
->
-> Then, like other specific instructions for powers -- such as the use of
-> Dispell against an incoming attack -- it is unique to Energy Blast, because
-> it appears under the description of the power, not in a general section. I
-> do not have to make an attack roll to use other powers that does not
-> specifically require an attack roll -- which is most of them -- if I do not
-> attack with those powers.
->
Actually, according to the rules, you do.
HSR, Page 56: "An instant power lasts just long enough for the character using
the power to make an Attack Roll"
Dispell, Flash, RKA, etc are all instant powers.
Why don't you just say that being able to use these powers without attacking
is a good house rule? Why do you persist in these lame attempts to find support
in the rules?
-Sam
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:09:10 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Sabotage
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 56
-- Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> Something occurred to me yesterday that should be in TUSV, but isn't in
> the current manuscript: sabotage. This happens quite frequently in movies
> and stuff, and so should have some rules covering it.
> My problem is, I'm not sure how it should be handled.
> What I'm leaning toward is this (to give a simplified version): The
> saboteur decides what he wants to do to the vehicle, and the GM assigns an
> appropriate Skill, just like a normal application. And, of course, there's
> a difficulty penalty for what the saboteur is trying to do:
>
> Disabling a Device: -1 per ten Active Points being shut off.
> Planting a Device (such as a bomb or remote control): -1 per ten Active
> Points being added.
> Weakening a Device (such as Burnout Rolls, Extra Time Limitation, etc.):
> -1 per -1/4 Limitation being imposed on a device.
>
> Does anyone have any feedback or further suggestions? I haven't
> dedicated anything to the actual manuscript yet (I'm still putting in stuff
> based on the recent discussion on locks -- thanks gang!), so the section is
> still open.
I wonder if you are trying to go too deep. Planting a bomb is
demolitions and concealment. Having just written that, change of mind.
Planting the device would apply a negative to the concealment roll. Extra
time would balance if possible.
Weakening a device (brakes, steering, whatever) would probarly be
mechanics but timing the failure would be the tricky part. The classic
scenes in the movies where the brakes fail just as the heroes are going down
a winding hill is a favorite of screen writers but unless somebody actually
pushes a button to blow an explosive device, when it happens is in the hands
of the gods.
But perhaps you are missing the greatest act of sabotage. Taking
control of the vehicle. Now, that is where the villian has the most fun.
Mechanics, electronics, system ops and a fair bit of time. The negatives
would depend on the relative level of technology of the vehicle, I suppose.
Try considering a normal vehicle as base (what, 20 to 30 points?) and apply
-1 per 10 points above that base. Countering that would probarly be several
people working on it (complemetry rolls) and maybe a decent amount of time.
Other modifiers could be added both positive and negative for research time
and effort spent.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:19:14 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Computer Questions
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> > 20 | Physical Limitation: Must obey creator's orders
> > 20 | Physical Limitation: Computer
> > 20 | Distinctive Features: Computer (Not Conc, Major Reaction)
> > 10 | DNPC: Creator (As Powerful), 14-
> >
> <*GAG*> man, I'm glad I didn't see this before. Personally, I wouldn't
> give *any* of these to a regular computer... *maybe* to an AI, but the
> first would probably be a Psych. Lim.
Only if the computer could make an EGO roll to disobey. If it
were keyed to always obey and couldn't break its programming, then an
Physical Limitation is in order.
-Tim Gilberg
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:26:26 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Computer Questions
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 09:19 PM 12/11/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> > 20 | Physical Limitation: Must obey creator's orders
>> > 20 | Physical Limitation: Computer
>> > 20 | Distinctive Features: Computer (Not Conc, Major Reaction)
>> > 10 | DNPC: Creator (As Powerful), 14-
>> >
>> <*GAG*> man, I'm glad I didn't see this before. Personally, I wouldn't
>> give *any* of these to a regular computer... *maybe* to an AI, but the
>> first would probably be a Psych. Lim.
>
> Only if the computer could make an EGO roll to disobey. If it
>were keyed to always obey and couldn't break its programming, then an
>Physical Limitation is in order.
>
True. I just don't see (my interpretation of) AIs absolutely not being
able to... although there *are* the Robot Rules, so I guess it's possible.
- Jerry
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:28:20 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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> So, we have a specific case of Energy Blast always reqiring an attack roll.
> How about RKA, Flash, etc.,?
Why yes, in the same section that mentions "other attacks" to be
EBs, Flashes, and whatnots.
>
> What about the classic schtick of firing one's six-shooter in the air to
> get everyone's attention? Is that an attack? If so, what is the target?
> What gets hit by this attack.
What about it? Yes. The ceiling (or sky, or sign, or whatever)
above the firing character. GMs choice, really, as it is just a random
shot that the character isn't specifically aiming. If he had luck or
unluck I'd make that a factor, otherwise.
> There is no target. Westerns ignore the fact that the bullet will
> eventually come back down as fast as it was fired up. There is no target,
> there is no DCV, there is no attack roll.
Target is general. DCV is unimportant. Attack roll is waived as
unimportant. It's there, there's just no need to actually roll it.
> The dispute is whether or not an Energy Blast and Flash activated as
> 0-phase actions may be used as a single half-phase attack action. If they
OK. That does seem to be it, doesn't it. I say no, not without a
special modifier, anyway.
> may with a limitation then they should without that limitation, because a
> limitation is *supposed* to restrict the usefulness of a power.
And as Vox and I keep pointing out, it does. You are accepting
less raw power for some variety, and keeping a lot of points tied down for
a small disadvantage.
But that is the debate. As everything in the rules is considered
to be GM-modifiable, it is possible to make changes. It's pretty standard
that certain advantages and lims are worth different amounts in different
campaigns.
I could see the logic in your argument that the gain in width
makes up for the loss in depth. OK then. Go with linked as a +-0
modifier. I could (and may) go with that in my next campaign, keeping the
current linked only for non-combat powers. Maybe.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:38:32 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> I think he was talking current rosters... yes, the Silver Surfer has
> worked with the Avengers. Thor is a good example, but I'm still not sure.
> You counting Charles Xavier, Cable, Jean Grey, and X-Man (Nate Grey) for
> the X's? Most of them touch on cosmic... although not literally so.
True. But only Jean regularly runs around with the X-Men combat
group.
> And Iron Man is back. Thor was gone, too, btw.
Hmmm. Well, I think Iron Man could take out the Xs all on his
lonesome. He's just got some incredible armor. About the best chance I
see for the X-Men is Gambit somehow getting his hands on the armor. Then
it's Bye-Bye.
-Tim Gilberg
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:47:23 EST
Subject: Re: Greetings
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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To: champ-l@omg.org
<< I'd love to see it. (A word of advice, though: email it directly to
those who express interest, rather than to the list.) >>
We'll likely just post it to the web page and let those interested download
it from there.
Mark @ GRG
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:49:00 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> First off, thanks for the response.
> Secondly, you can't take "Extra Time" for just an extra 1/2 Phase. The
> smallest increment is "Full Phase." So, it takes a Full Phase to turn this
> Power on, and then I don't have the 1/2 Phase you say I need to target it.
> So... it makes Energy Blast, Flash, et al useless for attacking?
> How about Dark Seraph in Classic Enemies? Did they goof on him?
> Not trying to be antagonistic, just questioning your argument.
Actually, it's pretty simple, but Rat seems to miss it.
Normally, an EB (or any attack power) takes a 1/2 phase action to
use. The full phase extra time amount means it takes a whole phase to
use.
Got it.
-Tim Gilberg
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:52:27 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> I think he was talking current rosters... yes, the Silver Surfer has
>> worked with the Avengers. Thor is a good example, but I'm still not sure.
>> You counting Charles Xavier, Cable, Jean Grey, and X-Man (Nate Grey) for
>> the X's? Most of them touch on cosmic... although not literally so.
>
> True. But only Jean regularly runs around with the X-Men combat
>group.
>
I thought there were two combat groups, Blue and Gold, one for each of the
two books (Uncanny and X-Men)?
>> And Iron Man is back. Thor was gone, too, btw.
>
> Hmmm. Well, I think Iron Man could take out the Xs all on his
>lonesome. He's just got some incredible armor. About the best chance I
>see for the X-Men is Gambit somehow getting his hands on the armor. Then
>it's Bye-Bye.
>
Yeah, that *would* be ugly. Then again, I have the first issue of the new
Iron Man (by Busiek, came out yesterday). He has new armor (again!) and
takes on
SPOILERS!
a group of five semi-powered armor mercs. He has some serious! problems,
mostly because of their superb teamwork. Now, I'm not saying the Xes are
this good, but they do get the bonuses for training together. Of course,
it would all depend on who was writing the book (running the game?). : )
- Jerry
Man, I thought I turned comic geek mode *off*... : D
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:53:40 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, Trevor Barrie wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>
> > > You _can_ track down the interesting stuff in the library. If they had just
> > > stuck to a few arts and done them in detail, you wouldn't have that.
> >
> > Steve should have listed his source material somewhere.
>
> <nod> Really, this should be SOP for any RPG supplement.
Going back to this note, my kazei Five book is *loaded* with comments like
"excellent examples of the anime cyborg are, Briarieos (Appleseed),
Kiddy Phenil (Silent Mobius) and Alita (Battle Angel)..." Thus, I tell
the reader exactly who and what I am thinking of when I bring up a topic.
I also made sure to list every little thing that inspired me in the
Biblography.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:55:55 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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> >valid construction and it does have the advantages I listed -- ie, more
>
> By "it's", do you mean the mini-computer approach or the full-blown computer
> bought through focus?
Both. Quite valid, but a waste of points.
> >cases. Chalk it up as missing the place in the BBB where Computers are
> >said to be purchased as followers. Quick, find it! I never knew where it
> >was 'till someone here pointed it out.
You didn't answer my challenge. (I don't remember myself, BTW)
> IMO, BTW, a computer without programs should require a controller roll.
> It's like going up to a DOS computer with no preinstalled applications
> and trying to word-process on it from scratch. Get your hex calculator
> ready ...
Heh. Actually, I'm making Computer Familiarity an offshoot of the
Vehicle Familiarity. It fits. Computer Ops is operating basic programs
and OSes, etc. Computer Programming is for programming the things.
And to use any functions of a computer bought as a seperate entity
during a combat or stressed situation will require rolls in my campaign.
Spend the points on skills with foci, and you don't need an ops roll.
> I know, and Sean Fannon made a point that anything anybody didn't like about
> -The MUTANT File- was only in it because "they" twisted his arm. It's a
> little too pat of a response, and it's also a little hard to swallow the
Uh-huh. Right. I can maybe see the "Advanced Mutant" concept
being pushed, the rest is probably his. I like the product, myself.
> concept of "them" pushing material on the poor authors, since the best
> suspect for "them" (Steve Peterson) moves heaven and earth to keep from
> making absolutist statements on the game system.
True. But I've seen Long's original Mental Combat maneuvers.
This is a definate editorial change. I'm taking requests for them now. I
can also see the Mind Scan change being an editorial decision as it is
shift in the rules. I'll look at some other things, but that's about all
off the top of my head.
-Tim Gilberg
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:01:08 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 07:39 PM 12/11/97 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Vox Ludator! wrote:
>
>> Nope. The problem is, Energy Blast requires more than a 0-Phase action to
>> activate. It requires a 0-Phase action AND AN ATTACK ROLL to activate.
You
>> can't use EB without the attack roll, and making the attack roll ends your
>> phase.
>
>You're being overly literal IMO. If an actual _Combat Maneuver_ isn't
>necessarily an attack action (re the example on BBB152), I don't see why
>an Energy Blast has to be.
>
OK, pulling out the BBB again was a pain, but...
Were you talking about Brace? I can't tell from your example. And that's
really an exception, not the rule.
- Jerry
Comments: Authenticated sender is <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
From: "Michael Nunn" <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
Organization: Rising Force Publications
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 04:01:27 +0000
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes
Reply-to: mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Priority: normal
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> A couple of issues back we did a sheet of blank cardboard heros, I
> used the template drawings we had been running and made a big sheet of
> them, so you could color in your PC's costume.
Where do I get this back issue?
Tim,
>From me.
Michael Nunn
PO Box 986
Munfordville, KY 42765
Issues cost $2.00 each , Actually the issues are about .40 cents the
rest is postage and handleing.
I only have isue 10 and up.
Michael
PS. check out our web site for more info.
"Herozine" Rising Force Publications "SUPER" RPG 'zine,
check out our web site at:
http://users.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:03:47 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>> First off, thanks for the response.
>> Secondly, you can't take "Extra Time" for just an extra 1/2 Phase. The
>> smallest increment is "Full Phase." So, it takes a Full Phase to turn this
>> Power on, and then I don't have the 1/2 Phase you say I need to target it.
>> So... it makes Energy Blast, Flash, et al useless for attacking?
>> How about Dark Seraph in Classic Enemies? Did they goof on him?
>> Not trying to be antagonistic, just questioning your argument.
>
>
> Actually, it's pretty simple, but Rat seems to miss it.
>
> Normally, an EB (or any attack power) takes a 1/2 phase action to
>use. The full phase extra time amount means it takes a whole phase to
>use.
>
> Got it.
>
Oh, I understand, and that's how *I* play it... but, if his assertion is
correct (in the other part of the argument), then no one in his games can
have Extra Time on an attack power. (I know, I know, there's no such thing
as an "attack power"... lol)
Thanks, tho. : )
- Jerry
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:24:30 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Cardboard Heroes
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>My friend and I do custom character markers for our whole squad. I could
>assemble them and have them available for download if anyone would find
>that helpful. You'd have to have some way to print them out in color,
>though, so I don't know if it would actually be worthwhile or not...
>
>Jeff
Actually, I can easily print them in color. Provided they are the right
size when printed up I'd gladly use them. Anything and everything you got.
If you are intersted in some of my players' characters I could tell you.
Heck, I wouldn't even mind the ability to print up a blank sheet of cut
outs, I suppose I could do that on my own, just no good with going from
screen to paper and getting the right size. Take it easy and talk at you later.
Sparx
=====================================================
Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:41:24 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> >
> I agree with your assessment but... wouldn't *completely* absorbing Thor
> put Rogue out, too? She did this to Juggy in... um, Spider-Man Team-Up
> #100(?). She went berserk, and had absorbed his memories, too. They had
> to put her down, then.
In an Avenger's Annual (I think the art was by Michael Golden) Rogue
totally absorbed both Thor and Capt. A. The issue featured a failbreak by
the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, back in their pre Freedom Force days, so
it had to be some time ago. In any case, Rogue absorbed Thor and was
still effective.
>
> >And being Cosmic is not all it's cracked up to be, Spidey beat up a Herald
> >of Galactus once (Firelord).:)
> >
> Ick. yeah. Cosmic is just an SFX for being real powerful, generally.
> Don't forget that the Fantastic Four got their powers from "Cosmic Rays."
> Or has that been retconned? : )
:) No idea, I THINK they still are cosmic ray powered, but could be
wrong. And when you have guys like Xavier, Joseph (The maybe ex-Magneto),
and others the X-men Universe has a few people on that level.
And as we gamers know, nothing is worse then fighting a group with two or
three mentalists.:) Well, most of the group's I've been in always get in
trouble when we fight mentalists at least.
TokyoMark
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:02:40 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Avengers vs. X-Men
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>True, but given who ludicrously inconsistent this is with the limitations
>that have later been imposed on Rogue's abilities, I'm inclined to ignore
>it. Even if we assume she can do it, she's done it before, so Thor's going
>to be expecting it. What are her odds of successfully making skin-to-skin
>contact, then?
Pretty good, actually, especially if she gets a few other Avengers first
(like Captain America). Rogue used to the true 'extent' of her abilities is
plenty damn scary (reference Avengers Annual #10).
>> Wolverine matches up well with Capt. A.
>
>If you're looking for match-ups which demonstrate how completely
>outclassed the X-Men are, I agree.:)
Don't be so sure there. I'm willing to admit that Capt.America's a better
fighter than Wolvie, but not by a whole lot, and it's _hard_ to take
Wolverine out of a fight.
>And of course, there's always the Quasar problem... he's a full-fledged
>Avenger, has power rivalling the Silver Surfer's, and is immune to mental
>manipulation (if the Overmind couldn't touch him, I don't think the
>X-mentalists have any chance). You could clone each of the X-Men off 5
>times and have them gang-pile him, and I still don't think they'd have
>much chance.
Well, if every person who's ever been an Avenger is going to be dragged into
this, then every X-Man has to be as well. Rachel Summers is plenty cosmic
level herself...
ObNote: What about the Beast? He was both an Avenger and an X-Man...:-)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:02:43 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Greetings
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> Hmmm. Well, I think Iron Man could take out the Xs all on his
>lonesome. He's just got some incredible armor. About the best chance I
>see for the X-Men is Gambit somehow getting his hands on the armor. Then
>it's Bye-Bye.
Please. Storm alone could take out Iron Man, assuming she wasn't busy
battling Thor. Either overload his armor with continious lightning bolts, or
put him through a Tornado or two. And Shellhead still (AFAIK) doesn't have
squid for defenses against mentalists. Iron Man alone could not take the
X-Men, not even close.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:05:53 -0800
From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell)
Subject: Re: Greetings
X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII
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-> From jprins@interhop.net Thu Dec 11 20:58:23 1997
->
-> > Hmmm. Well, I think Iron Man could take out the Xs all on his
-> >lonesome. He's just got some incredible armor. About the best chance I
-> >see for the X-Men is Gambit somehow getting his hands on the armor. Then
-> >it's Bye-Bye.
->
-> Please. Storm alone could take out Iron Man, assuming she wasn't busy
-> battling Thor. Either overload his armor with continious lightning bolts, or
-> put him through a Tornado or two. And Shellhead still (AFAIK) doesn't have
-> squid for defenses against mentalists. Iron Man alone could not take the
-> X-Men, not even close.
->
A lightning bolt would only make him stronger. He absorbs electricity.
Enough X-Men could take him, if he didn't get the egoists first. But
half the team (Cyclops, Storm, Banshee, Gambit, Forge, etc) would go
down in the first segment of computer-controlled repulsor fire.
The big 3 Avengers (Thor, Iron Man, Captain America) would make a good fight
for a dozen X-Folks, barring massed egoists.
-Sam
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:13:39 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes
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> A couple of issues back we did a sheet of blank cardboard heros, I
> used the template drawings we had been running and made a big sheet of
> them, so you could color in your PC's costume.
Where do I get this back issue?
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:22:52 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7
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Subject: Re: Avengers vs. X-Men
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>
> Pretty good, actually, especially if she gets a few other Avengers first
> (like Captain America). Rogue used to the true 'extent' of her abilities is
> plenty damn scary (reference Avengers Annual #10).
I think her odds would be pretty good, at least in Thor's old costume,
there was alot of skin to touch there. I heard he had a new costume, but
don't recall much about it. Obviously, the less skin showing the more
she'd have to work to get the contact.
>
> >> Wolverine matches up well with Capt. A.
> >
> >If you're looking for match-ups which demonstrate how completely
> >outclassed the X-Men are, I agree.:)
>
> Don't be so sure there. I'm willing to admit that Capt.America's a better
> fighter than Wolvie, but not by a whole lot, and it's _hard_ to take
> Wolverine out of a fight.
Well, look at it this way. Wolvies training is at least as good as
Captain America's and he's had (apparently) decades more to gain
experience. Cap has his Shield, Wolvie has his claws. Capt is the peak
of human perfection and Wolvie is a mutant who went toe to toe with the
Hulk. I don't see any big edge for Capt. A. The one time I recall them
fighting even briefly it looked pretty even.
>
> Well, if every person who's ever been an Avenger is going to be dragged into
> this, then every X-Man has to be as well. Rachel Summers is plenty cosmic
> level herself...
Sure. And since we can, we could also bring back to Original Phoenix
since it's been revealed she was not Jean Grey;) I'd take her over
Quasar.
Actually, picking a winner is almost impossible since both sides have had
so many different teams. I'm just suggesting it's more even then some
people seem to think.
TokyoMark
From: "Marc Seebass" <kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Avengers vs. X-Men
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:23:49 -0600
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-----Original Message-----
From: John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net>
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Thursday, December 11, 1997 11:08 PM
Subject: Avengers vs. X-Men
>>True, but given who ludicrously inconsistent this is with the limitations
>>that have later been imposed on Rogue's abilities, I'm inclined to ignore
>>it. Even if we assume she can do it, she's done it before, so Thor's going
>>to be expecting it. What are her odds of successfully making skin-to-skin
>>contact, then?
>
>Pretty good, actually, especially if she gets a few other Avengers first
>(like Captain America). Rogue used to the true 'extent' of her abilities is
>plenty damn scary (reference Avengers Annual #10).
>
>>> Wolverine matches up well with Capt. A.
>>
>>If you're looking for match-ups which demonstrate how completely
>>outclassed the X-Men are, I agree.:)
>
>Don't be so sure there. I'm willing to admit that Capt.America's a better
>fighter than Wolvie, but not by a whole lot, and it's _hard_ to take
>Wolverine out of a fight.
>
>>And of course, there's always the Quasar problem... he's a full-fledged
>>Avenger, has power rivalling the Silver Surfer's, and is immune to mental
>>manipulation (if the Overmind couldn't touch him, I don't think the
>>X-mentalists have any chance). You could clone each of the X-Men off 5
>>times and have them gang-pile him, and I still don't think they'd have
>>much chance.
>
Quasar is a Green Lantern without the stupid yellow limitation.
He can do anything the writer wants him to at the moment.
>Well, if every person who's ever been an Avenger is going to be dragged
into
>this, then every X-Man has to be as well. Rachel Summers is plenty cosmic
>level herself...
>
>ObNote: What about the Beast? He was both an Avenger and an X-Man...:-)
He'll just have to fight himself.
What about Joseph/Magneto? He's taken on the Avenger's alone before and done
pretty well.
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:34:53 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Greetings
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> > Hmmm. Well, I think Iron Man could take out the Xs all on his
> >lonesome. He's just got some incredible armor. About the best chance I
> >see for the X-Men is Gambit somehow getting his hands on the armor. Then
> >it's Bye-Bye.
>
> Please. Storm alone could take out Iron Man, assuming she wasn't busy
> battling Thor. Either overload his armor with continious lightning bolts, or
> put him through a Tornado or two. And Shellhead still (AFAIK) doesn't have
Now, now. With what's he's been able to withstand in the past,
and with the high-power of his armor, I say he can get through her.
She'd be able to batter him around a little bit, however, and that
might be enough for Gambit to get a quick hand on him.
> squid for defenses against mentalists. Iron Man alone could not take the
> X-Men, not even close.
I seemed to recall some anti-psych fields within his suit. Am I
thinking of someone else?
-Tim Gilberg
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:35:43 EST
Subject: Re: Crossover Adventures (Re: Going off on a little tangent)
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< Perhaps a CU / San Angelo crossover adventure could be written.>>
That is certainly a possibility. We've also talked with Hero Games about the
possibility of doing a SA/C:NM crossover product. Don't worry, it'd only be a
one shot book. ;)
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:35:48 EST
Subject: Re: San Angelo Origin of Powers (Re: Greetings)
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<< Perhaps you could provide two or three of the 'opposing' views society has
created. Like what is the churches explanation? The New Agers? An opposing
scientific view? A view from the psychological camps? Maybe even some
obviously crackpot theories? Perhaps throw in a few 'counter arguments' and
then leave if undeclared as to who is right.>>
Those are covered in the book. What can I say? Great minds think alike. ;)
Yes, we know that there would be (or should be) many different views about
supers, and we tried to cover a wide range of views, from the Reverend who
believes that super powers are from the devil, to the new age priestess of the
New Atlantean Temple, to the scientific community's various views, talk show
hosts' comments, etc.
I'm telling you, a lot of thought went into San Angelo. You're going to love
it!
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:35:52 EST
Subject: Re: Greetings
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< In a way, isn't it really the *third* book in the set? I have Heroic
Adventures Vol. 1 (I keep putting off Vol. 2), and one of the adventures is
set in San Angelo. >>
I can see where you'd say that. HA1 had two pages of San Angelo info in it
(a *really* general overview, and some details were changed for this book).
HA2 mentioned using the adventures in San Angelo, and included some locales
(like the SA Metropolitan Museum) but it was not an official SA product.
This is the first "official" San Angelo product, though.
<< Oh, boy... when anyone with any official ties to Hero Games uses the
phrase, "Fifth Edition," it starts heart palpitations (even if they're just
talking about the singing group).>>
Fifth Edition, Fifth Edition, Fifth Edition, Fifth Edition, Fifth Edition!!!
<LOL>
Call the paramedics! :D
Mark @ GRG
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:43:22 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
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Subject: Re: Greetings
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>
> A lightning bolt would only make him stronger. He absorbs electricity.
I have to agree here, he could absorb it no trouble. If he's still doing
the remote controled armor that helps him with the egoist problem.
>
> Enough X-Men could take him, if he didn't get the egoists first. But
> half the team (Cyclops, Storm, Banshee, Gambit, Forge, etc) would go
> down in the first segment of computer-controlled repulsor fire.
I doubt that. Gambit at least can dodge better than this, maybe Storm if
flying. If Forge is there he better bring some cool gadgets or he's
history;)
>
> The big 3 Avengers (Thor, Iron Man, Captain America) would make a good fight
> for a dozen X-Folks, barring massed egoists.
Hmm...depends. Magneto was an X-Man for a bit. Since his powers don't
rely on alloy being ferrous anymore (Or did they change this back?) he's
handle Iron Man no trouble. Rogue takes out Thor, then helps out with
Iron Man or Capt. A. Xavier sits on a boat half way across the world and
mind blasts all three. Even if we leave out all egoists, Wolvie blanaces
Capt. A. Rogue takes out Thor. Then much more powerful, teams up with
Magneto and takes out Ironman.
We can add more heavy hitterws from both sides and turn it into a real
knockdown dragout fight. Even the more normal people can have fun, buth
X-men and Avengers have had members who were little more than skilled
normals.
In any case, I'm just saying it would not be a walkover for either side.:)
TokyoMark
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:54:02 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
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Subject: Re: Avengers vs. X-Men
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>
> My favorite comic book character could take your favorite comic book
> character anyday.
>
> And my daddy could beat up your daddy to.
What, you'd prefer we stuck to discussing exactly what constitutes an
attack power/attack roll/attack activation?;)
>
> But as for actual comparrision, where the stats published in the Marvel RPG
> official?
Probably official, but far far out of date.
TokyoMark
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:15:03 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA/ Desol Super Dodge
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> >> The problems with this are so numerous that anyone with any understanding
> >> of the mechanics should see them.
>
> TRG> No, tell me. I don't see them. It seems to work fine here.
>
> Case in point.
Low blow, and I could do the same and say it works so well that
only someone who doesn't understand the system could not see it working.
Anyway, what doesn't work. Desolid comes with two abilities --
the ability to move through solid objects and the ability to not be hit
by attacks. As this is the Hero system, I can use a disadvantage to limit
or get rid of either of those abilities.
One of the abilities, the damage immunity, comes with the caveat
that the holder of the power choose some resonably common set of attacks
to still be vulnerable to.
The power also, when being used, makes it impossible to affect the
physical world with stats or powers without using "Affects Physical World"
at +2 on those powers you want to be able to use.
Look about right?
Okay then.
We want a Super-Dodge ability. One where the character can
*absolutely* not be hit and/or (kinda goes with the territory) not take
damage. We could do this with insane amounts of DCV, but that would allow
the (very) remote chance of someone with just a very high OCV or a perfect
3 on the to-hit roll.
Another option is to take large amounts of defense, but this could
get prohibitedly expensive as one would have to take those large amounts
of defense in every possible classification of damage, as well as things
like LS for NNDs. Also would need lots of KB resistance to avoid the KB
caused by attacks. This still allows for a potential large attack to get
through when SFX says it should not.
Looking through the book, we see desolid. It comes with the very
ability we want -- avoid (the effects of) any attack. (Well, almost any).
This works, as our power is vulnerable to some attacks -- notably AEs and
a few special techniques (read, rare SFX) taught by some monks in Northern
Mongolia and one who happens to live in [campaign city].
So we buy it as desolid. We take a lim on the desolid to account
for the fact that we cannot actually move through solid objects. No
problem, as that is a standard of Hero Rules. For our reasonably common
set of attacks we choose AE attacks and specially trained attacks.
Works fine. Now we need to know whether our super-dodge allows
attacks while being used. Most that I've seen actually don't. If they
have attack ability while using the skill they are usually actually
hittable -- just take high DCV levels. If they don't attack, OTOH, it is
a sign that the skill is exclusive of any actual attack -- an all out
defense, if you will. No "Affects Physical World" needed. The power is
complete.
Now, if you do want Absolute Defense with ability to attack, it's
a little tougher. You must buy Affects Physical on each of your powers
you can use. This gets *quite* expensive. At this point, I recommend
spending the points on DCV levels usable with Dodge instead, but it's your
point expenditure.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:30:01 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Avengers vs. X-Men
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>
> My favorite comic book character could take your favorite comic book
> character anyday.
Now, now. Just because I think the Avengers would take the X-Men
doesn't mean I like the Avengers more. I'm actually a much bigger X-Men
admirer. I'm just a realistic one.
-Tim Gilberg
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 01:30:01 EST
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Greetings
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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In a message dated 97-12-11 04:30:23 EST, you write:
<< I have a question for the masses, though. Would anyone like to see more
"Cardboard Heroes" type of products? I don't think it would be too difficult
to do, even as a one sheet insert in a book or as a one sheet tear-out.
Thoughts? >>
YES!!!!! YES!!!!!! YES!!!!! Please print more cardboard cutouts! As many as
you can.
X-Sender: naneiden@iswest.com
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:34:53 -0800
From: Nic Neidenbach <naneiden@iswest.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings
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I'd love to see Cardboard Hero styled markers for the villains and
important NPCs in a given adventure book too.
-Nic
At 01:30 AM 12/12/97 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 97-12-11 04:30:23 EST, you write:
>
><< I have a question for the masses, though. Would anyone like to see more
> "Cardboard Heroes" type of products? I don't think it would be too difficult
> to do, even as a one sheet insert in a book or as a one sheet tear-out.
> Thoughts? >>
>
>YES!!!!! YES!!!!!! YES!!!!! Please print more cardboard cutouts! As many as
>you can.
>
>
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 01:42:40 -0500
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> > Please. Storm alone could take out Iron Man, assuming she wasn't busy
> > battling Thor. Either overload his armor with continious lightning
bolts, or
> > put him through a Tornado or two. And Shellhead still (AFAIK) doesn't
have
>
> Now, now. With what's he's been able to withstand in the past,
> and with the high-power of his armor, I say he can get through her.
>
> She'd be able to batter him around a little bit, however, and that
> might be enough for Gambit to get a quick hand on him.
>
>
> > squid for defenses against mentalists. Iron Man alone could not take
the
> > X-Men, not even close.
>
>
> I seemed to recall some anti-psych fields within his suit. Am I
> thinking of someone else?
>
>
> -Tim Gilberg
>
>From the beginning, Iron Man's armor has had an amazing ability to cope
with electricity, and this power has steadily increased with time. Unless
Storm really pushes herself and prepares ahead of time for the fight, say
by tapping into the Earth's magnetic field for a while, Iron Man should be
able to handle anything she can throw at him.
I haven't read any Marvel comics in several years, but I do recall an old
Avengers issue in the early #200s where Moondragon used her mental powers
to paralyze a mess o' heroes in Avengers mansion. Iron Man partly
countered her mental hold by generating some type of electromagnetic
jamming field, then jetting out of the mansion and out of range of her
power. Perhaps he's had enough experience with mentalists since then to
improve this trick to block the mental powers generated by the
electrochemical brain.
Len Carpenter
redlion@early.com
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com>
Subject: Velocity and Damage
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 02:13:27 -0500
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Here's another take on a previous TUSV thread on the damage caused by a
moving vehicle hitting a building.
To get a better grasp on the nature of damage energy, a simple guideline I
adopted some time ago was to treat 1 DC as roughly equal to 50 joules of
energy. I read somewhere that a typical punch is in the 25-100 joule
range, so this seemed reasonable. For every additional DC, the energy
involved doubles--a 2d6 punch is about 100 joules, a 3d6 kick about 200
joules, and so on. This neatly follows the same numbers in the
progression of the doubling of lift mass with increasing STR.
This method has an appeal. I can pull a book off the shelf and learn that
the 50 mm L/60 gun fitted in the German PzKw III tank in early WW II fired
a 2.25 kg AT round with a muzzle velocity of 1,189 meters per second. By
the end of the war, the weapon proved obsolete as a tank killer,
inadequate for penetrating most tanks' armor. Kinetic energy is equal to
one-half mass times velocity squared. 0.5 * (2.25 kg) * (1,189 m/sec)^2 =
1,590,000 joules of energy, about 16 DC, or 5d6+1 Killing or 3-1/2d6 KAP
damage. I've read that the explosion of 1 gram of TNT releases about
4,200 joules, while C-4 is 1.34 times as powerful as TNT, so I can judge
what damage bombs can do.
Let's consider a car with a mass of 1,600 kg racing at 25" per segment (50
meters per second, or 180 kph). That's 0.5 * (1,600) * (50)^2 = 2
megajoules, also about 16d6 damage energy. Of course, the AT round, being
much smaller, will strike with a much greater pressure, and pressure is
probably the most accurate way to measure damage energy, though more
complex. An AT gun is a more effective way to take out an armored vehicle
than ramming it with a Buick.
I'm not positive whether the example of the flying vehicle with an x32 NCM
discussed in the previous thread had a 30" move at some SPD X, or a 30"
per segment movement rate. I'll assume the latter. A supersonic vehicle
with a mass of a 25 metric tons traveling at 30" * 32 = 960" per segment
or 1,920 m/sec (about 6,900 kph, in the neighborhood of Mach 6) has a
kinetic energy of 0.5 * (25,000) * (1,920)^2 = 46 gigajoules, or 31d6
damage energy.
These damage figures agree fairly well with the vehicle damage charts in
the old Champions II supplement. Damage energy in those charts depends on
the speed of the vehicle in inches per segment. For every doubling of the
vehicle's mass above 100 kg, an additional 1d6 damage is caused.
To be really technical, the initial kinetic energy of a moving vehicle
will not be transformed solely into damage energy to the object struck, or
even be simply divided between damage energy to target and vehicle. There
are also the final kinetic energies of mover and target, plus wasted
energy in the form of heat and sound. All this complexity made me balk at
trying to change the official Move By and Move Through rules to be more
"realistic." Too many variables involved, such as the hardness and
elasticity of the objects involved.
Very hard or elastic objects, like billiard balls and hockey pucks,
usually don't shatter when hit; they're knocked back with great speed.
Concrete and brick, though hard, aren't terribly elastic, and will crack
or shatter if dropped from a height, unlike a rubber ball. Flesh and bone
are even less elastic, and will suffer considerable damage energy when
struck, with much less energy taking the form of kinetic energy of the
body flying back (That's why knockback damage is only a fraction of the
initial damage energy. Subtract an average of 7 from damage energy, and
you halve that energy repeatedly seven times, so that knockback energy is
only about 1/128 of damage energy--perhaps here's an argument for changing
the knockback rule to make typical knockback energy even greater.)
I'm no engineer, though, so I'd like to hear from anyone more
knowledgeable who can criticize or correct this approach. For example,
applying this method to falling damage doesn't come close to producing the
recommended 30d6 damage for a terminal velocity skydive sans parachute, so
some modifications (i.e. kludges) would be in order for the true realism
freaks.
Len Carpenter
redlion@early.com
X-Sender: willitts@bitstorm.net
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 02:27:41 -0500
From: Terrence Willitts <willitts@bitstorm.net>
Subject: Re: Fights!
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 02:16 AM 12/3/97 -0500, you wrote:
>When I GM, there's a couple of ways to do these teffects:
> a natural 3 on your attack roll accomplishes a lot more than what
> your "active points" would normally make happen.
Kinda like a 'critical hit', no?
"Virgil.... you are a good and wise ape."
- Cesar,
_Battle for the Planet of the Apes_
--------------------------------------------------
Proud Member, Sphere Online Publications. http://www.fantasylink.com
Science Fiction, Fantasy, Horror and Roleplaying
--------------------------------------------------
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 03:23:34 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Greetings
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Tokyo Mark wrote:
>> >
>> I agree with your assessment but... wouldn't *completely* absorbing Thor
>> put Rogue out, too? She did this to Juggy in... um, Spider-Man Team-Up
>> #100(?). She went berserk, and had absorbed his memories, too. They had
>> to put her down, then.
>
>In an Avenger's Annual (I think the art was by Michael Golden) Rogue
>totally absorbed both Thor and Capt. A. The issue featured a failbreak by
>the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, back in their pre Freedom Force days, so
>it had to be some time ago. In any case, Rogue absorbed Thor and was
>still effective.
>
Okay, yeah. Someone else mentioned this, that, when she became an
X-person, she got a bunch of angsty limitations on it. I think now she
would get messed up. She always runs the possibility of absorbing
someone's powers *permanently* like she did with Capatin Marvel (the
*blonde* female one).
>>
>> >And being Cosmic is not all it's cracked up to be, Spidey beat up a Herald
>> >of Galactus once (Firelord).:)
>> >
>> Ick. yeah. Cosmic is just an SFX for being real powerful, generally.
>> Don't forget that the Fantastic Four got their powers from "Cosmic Rays."
>> Or has that been retconned? : )
>
>:) No idea, I THINK they still are cosmic ray powered, but could be
>wrong. And when you have guys like Xavier, Joseph (The maybe ex-Magneto),
>and others the X-men Universe has a few people on that level.
>
Yeah. I'm not sure if it was Joseph, but apparently Magneto is back. In
fact, I think it *isn't* Joseph, but I only skimmed that issue, so... : )
>And as we gamers know, nothing is worse then fighting a group with two or
>three mentalists.:) Well, most of the group's I've been in always get in
>trouble when we fight mentalists at least.
>
Yeah, the PCs in my group would get thoroughly thrashed. But I've only had
one PC Mentalist, anyway. I've tried to make Mental Powers rare, as I feel
they are a little too easily abused and abusive. Now that I understand
them... I didn't let the PC have Mental Illusions or Mind Control. I was
afraid of what he might do. : D I know him, he's got a sharp wit...
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 03:25:22 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
John Prins wrote:
>Please. Storm alone could take out Iron Man, assuming she wasn't busy
>battling Thor. Either overload his armor with continious lightning bolts, or
>put him through a Tornado or two. And Shellhead still (AFAIK) doesn't have
>squid for defenses against mentalists. Iron Man alone could not take the
>X-Men, not even close.
>
How much Mental Defense does squid give, anyway? I know a certain starfish
that would do okay, but that's a different comic company... j/k : D
- Jerry
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 97 08:32:05 GMT
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Stephen McGinness)
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
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At 11:02 PM 11/12/97 +0000, mlnunn@net.blue.scrtc wrote:
> I like 4th edition, no it's not perfect, but what I don't like I
>modify, and what I don't like and what Vox doesn't like could be
>completely different. One of the great things about Hero is that is
>is so easy to gear for your own game.
Good point. with the Great Linked Debate in full flow again, I'd love to see
the man brave enough to take a side in the rules themselves, and doubt
whether it would stop it happening again!!
:-)
>Just my humble opinion...
That's the sort of thing that starts these debates!
>Michael
>
>
Stephen
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 03:32:20 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Avengers vs. X-Men
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Tokyo Mark wrote:
>> >> Wolverine matches up well with Capt. A.
>> >
>> >If you're looking for match-ups which demonstrate how completely
>> >outclassed the X-Men are, I agree.:)
>>
>> Don't be so sure there. I'm willing to admit that Capt.America's a better
>> fighter than Wolvie, but not by a whole lot, and it's _hard_ to take
>> Wolverine out of a fight.
>
>Well, look at it this way. Wolvies training is at least as good as
>Captain America's and he's had (apparently) decades more to gain
>experience. Cap has his Shield, Wolvie has his claws. Capt is the peak
>of human perfection and Wolvie is a mutant who went toe to toe with the
>Hulk. I don't see any big edge for Capt. A. The one time I recall them
>fighting even briefly it looked pretty even.
>
Except for the fact that Logan is still in that "super-deformed" version of
himself, w/o the Adamantium claws. I think that would cut his HKA down a
little... and he would have less rPD because of the missing metal bones.
Sure, he has the regular ones, but they're less tough.
(If I missed this, and he got the metal back, someone *please* correct me.
Nicely, if at all possible. : )
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 03:35:29 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Avengers vs. X-Men
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Marc Seebass wrote:
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net>
>To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org>
>Date: Thursday, December 11, 1997 11:08 PM
>Subject: Avengers vs. X-Men
>
>>>And of course, there's always the Quasar problem... he's a full-fledged
>>>Avenger, has power rivalling the Silver Surfer's, and is immune to mental
>>>manipulation (if the Overmind couldn't touch him, I don't think the
>>>X-mentalists have any chance). You could clone each of the X-Men off 5
>>>times and have them gang-pile him, and I still don't think they'd have
>>>much chance.
>>
>Quasar is a Green Lantern without the stupid yellow limitation.
>He can do anything the writer wants him to at the moment.
>
Yeah, but *Green Lantern* is a Green Lantern w/o the "stupid" yellow
limitation. The ring given to Kyle was "cleansed" of that "impurity."
Made some white Martians pretty unhappy, 'cause they hadn't heard the news.
: )
>>Well, if every person who's ever been an Avenger is going to be dragged
>into
>>this, then every X-Man has to be as well. Rachel Summers is plenty cosmic
>>level herself...
>>
>>ObNote: What about the Beast? He was both an Avenger and an X-Man...:-)
>He'll just have to fight himself.
>
Well, couldn't he? I mean, we could have him fight Dark Beast... : D
>What about Joseph/Magneto? He's taken on the Avenger's alone before and done
>pretty well.
>
That's only true if he is actually Magneto. Anyone get the latest issue,
where (I think) they said?
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 03:40:41 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Avengers v. X-Men
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Tokyo Mark wrote:
>>
>> A lightning bolt would only make him stronger. He absorbs electricity.
>
>I have to agree here, he could absorb it no trouble. If he's still doing
>the remote controled armor that helps him with the egoist problem.
>
Nope, he's back in the suit. He even still carries it around in a briefcase.
>> The big 3 Avengers (Thor, Iron Man, Captain America) would make a good
fight
>> for a dozen X-Folks, barring massed egoists.
>
>Hmm...depends. Magneto was an X-Man for a bit. Since his powers don't
>rely on alloy being ferrous anymore (Or did they change this back?) he's
>handle Iron Man no trouble. Rogue takes out Thor, then helps out with
>Iron Man or Capt. A. Xavier sits on a boat half way across the world and
>mind blasts all three. Even if we leave out all egoists, Wolvie blanaces
>Capt. A. Rogue takes out Thor. Then much more powerful, teams up with
>Magneto and takes out Ironman.
>
Well, I could *really* see this happening, what with the
Joseph/Rogue/Gambit love triangle. But Joseph is currently *much* less
powerful than Erik was. Hell, Age of Apocalypse Magneto could mess with
electrical brain impulses, couldn't he? (Am I thinking of some other story?)
>In any case, I'm just saying it would not be a walkover for either side.:)
>
I agree here. I still say it's up to the writers. : )
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 03:43:19 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Avengers vs. X-Men
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Brian Wong wrote:
>Oh pu-lease...
>
>My favorite comic book character could take your favorite comic book
>character anyday.
>
What if we both like the same one? Man, I gotta take the Earth-2!
Superman? Course you're gonna win!! lol
>And my daddy could beat up your daddy to.
>
I dunno. My dad's had police training, but he's got -1" Running and a real
END/REC problem for smoking so long... oh, and he's a 55 year old
diabetic. What kinda stats your pops got? : )
>But as for actual comparrision, where the stats published in the Marvel RPG
>official?
>
AFAIK, they were *not*. The ratings were off greatly, in some cases.
(Hearsay, true, but true hearsay. : )
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 03:47:43 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Avengers vs. X-Men
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>>
>> My favorite comic book character could take your favorite comic book
>> character anyday.
>
> Now, now. Just because I think the Avengers would take the X-Men
>doesn't mean I like the Avengers more. I'm actually a much bigger X-Men
>admirer. I'm just a realistic one.
>
I don't know about that... we're still debating the outcome. (Of course,
we might never stop... : ) But I think they *should* be able to.
Oh, the new Avengers roster... anyone heard anything concrete? Only two
weeks left!
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 04:00:59 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Chaos Theory
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 02:09 PM 12/11/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>CHAOS THEORY
<description snipped>
Well, I've never read any of your humor, so we'll see... the source info
looked good, tho. You looked into the GURPS books yet? Illuminati, IOU,
and then...
Yeah, it's a plug for a friend of mine...
GURPS Warehouse 23 and GURPS Black Ops, by S. John Ross. (Well, the second
one was co-authored, but still...)
I own Warehouse, and it has *plenty* of notes on artifacts and whatnot.
Good bibliography, too.
Black Ops, I've not read the whole way through. But it has an organization
like the one you are describing, w/o the humor (I hope!). It describes a
campaign world w/ EVERYTHING, tho.
Illuminati is the straight conspiracy line thing, and IOU is Illuminati
University. (What's the O for, you say? You're not cleared for that.)
Comedy, but moreso than you are doing (if possible).
>
> What kind of feedback I get from the list for this will directly impact
>whether or not I do this book. (It may also influence the size and
>content.)
>
I think your book would be a good read, but it wouldn't be high on my
priority list. Sorry. : ) Good luck, tho, Bob!
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 04:03:42 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Sabotage
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 04:18 PM 12/11/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 05:00 PM 12/11/97 -0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>>I like the fact that it goes along with the "-1/10 Active Points" from the
>>RSR lim. I don't know how much the last one should be, tho... maybe -1/10
>>Real Points difference in the change? ie Tacking a "minor" lim on a larger
>>power is harder than putting it on a minor one. Weakening the motor
>>(Running or Flight) would probably be harder than weakening (to the same
>>extent) the radio. (Maybe. Just a thought.)
>
> Someone else, in a direct email, made a similar point, and it was in
>fact my first instinct. As the same person pointed out, though, this would
>be rather difficult for most folks to calculate, especially on the fly.
>
I agree with that, but... If I'm gonna have an NPC sabotage a PCs vehicle,
it'll probably be planned, not "on the fly." And (one would hope) the PCs
would do a little planning for sabotage, too... or would be too heroic to
do it.
Having a detailed "Character" sheet for each vehicle would help very *very*
much. Did you include a blank one for photocopy in the book? <hint, hint>
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 04:06:55 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Sabotage
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 04:20 PM 12/11/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 06:17 PM 12/11/97 -0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>>The other thing is... did we ever reach a consensus on how much an
>>"Everyman" Vehicle is worth? I liked the part about the multiple of your
>>wealth...
>
> I think what was finally arrived at was 20 points, plus the point value
>of your wealth. Anyway, that's what I've put in the book.
>
Okay, sounds familiar, and (after print) will be *mostly* official. : )
I'll start implementing it now. Although they *will* have to rewrite their
stuff when I get the book... lol.
Say, is this going to be paper, or disk? I can't recall... disk, I assume.
You're working directly *for* HERO, right?
- Jerry
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 05:20:26 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Avengers vs. X-Men
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> >
> Except for the fact that Logan is still in that "super-deformed" version of
> himself, w/o the Adamantium claws. I think that would cut his HKA down a
> little... and he would have less rPD because of the missing metal bones.
> Sure, he has the regular ones, but they're less tough.
> (If I missed this, and he got the metal back, someone *please* correct me.
> Nicely, if at all possible. : )
As far as I know he still lacks the metal, but the current story seems tob
e that the metal skeleton held him back and made him heal more slowly. so
now that he's 'free' of it he's even tougher in some ways. I'm not saying
I buy this story, mind you, but that's how they seem to be doing it:)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 05:22:23 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Avengers v. X-Men
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> Well, I could *really* see this happening, what with the
> Joseph/Rogue/Gambit love triangle. But Joseph is currently *much* less
> powerful than Erik was. Hell, Age of Apocalypse Magneto could mess with
> electrical brain impulses, couldn't he? (Am I thinking of some other story?)
No, I think you are right. But it seems Joseph is not really Magneto, at
least a recent issue suggested that he was not. Which brings up a whole
bunch of loose ends now:)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 05:24:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Chaos Theory
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> Yeah, it's a plug for a friend of mine...
> GURPS Warehouse 23 and GURPS Black Ops, by S. John Ross. (Well, the second
> one was co-authored, but still...)
> I own Warehouse, and it has *plenty* of notes on artifacts and whatnot.
> Good bibliography, too.
> Black Ops, I've not read the whole way through. But it has an organization
> like the one you are describing, w/o the humor (I hope!). It describes a
> campaign world w/ EVERYTHING, tho.
> Illuminati is the straight conspiracy line thing, and IOU is Illuminati
> University. (What's the O for, you say? You're not cleared for that.)
> Comedy, but moreso than you are doing (if possible).
I liked Black Ops. I looked forward to Warehouse 23 and was then
disappointed by how much of it was silly stuff like temporal stasis in a
toothpaste tube. I had been hoping for a good conspiracy book and got
comedy:)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:40:35 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
> >You're being overly literal IMO. If an actual _Combat Maneuver_ isn't
> >necessarily an attack action (re the example on BBB152), I don't see why
> >an Energy Blast has to be.
> >
> OK, pulling out the BBB again was a pain, but...
> Were you talking about Brace? I can't tell from your example. And that's
> really an exception, not the rule.
No, I meant the example on the bottom of the left column, where a
character is mentioned as using a Strike in a non-attack roll, non-phase-
ending manner.
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:55:25 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Avengers vs. X-Men
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Fri, 12 Dec 1997, John and Ron Prins wrote:
> >True, but given who ludicrously inconsistent this is with the limitations
> >that have later been imposed on Rogue's abilities, I'm inclined to ignore
> >it. Even if we assume she can do it, she's done it before, so Thor's going
> >to be expecting it. What are her odds of successfully making skin-to-skin
> >contact, then?
>
> Pretty good, actually, especially if she gets a few other Avengers first
> (like Captain America). Rogue used to the true 'extent' of her abilities is
> plenty damn scary (reference Avengers Annual #10).
But of course, this was back when she has a villain. When she actually
joined the X-Men something had to be done because let's face it - somebody
who can handle Thor would also mop up most of the X-Men's villains
singlehandedly in pretty short order. Since joining the heroes, I can only
think of a few times when she's tried to use her absorption ability on an
adversary - and offhand, I can't think of even a single time when it
actually _worked_.
> >And of course, there's always the Quasar problem... he's a full-fledged
> >Avenger, has power rivalling the Silver Surfer's, and is immune to mental
> >manipulation (if the Overmind couldn't touch him, I don't think the
> >X-mentalists have any chance). You could clone each of the X-Men off 5
> >times and have them gang-pile him, and I still don't think they'd have
> >much chance.
>
> Well, if every person who's ever been an Avenger is going to be dragged into
> this, then every X-Man has to be as well. Rachel Summers is plenty cosmic
> level herself...
But Quasar still slapped her down the last time they fought.
From: ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:07:39 +0000
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Arts & Letters has a new program out called Comic Book Draw for
Windows 3.1/95. It's "a complete drawing program that includes
drawing and editing tools, scalable typefaces, and over 1000 clip art
images featuring comic book art. A drag & drop Clip Art Manager
allows you to select images displayed on a screen and drop them in
the drawing area."
I haven't tried it yet, but it looks pretty decent, and would be
perfect for designing your own cardboard heroes. It can import files
from TIF, WMF, PIC, DOC, DIB, and BMP formats, and export them to
EPS, SCD, CGM, WMF, TIF, WPG, BMP, and CSP.
Does anybody else on the list have this program?
Guy
----------------------------------
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com)
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf
and the PANGAEA Project!
From: ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:11:58 +0000
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editio
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>
> G > But if we're going to go to the expense of reprinting the game,
> G > rather see us take opportunity to clean up the rest of the typos,
> G > some new artwork, change the trade dress (i.e., the outside cover
> G > layout, maybe? And there are a few MINOR rules changes that Hero wants
> G > make.
Does anybody know just what these MINOR rule changes are that Hero
wants to make?
----------------------------------
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com)
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf
and the PANGAEA Project!
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:15:53 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Fri, 12 Dec 1997, John and Ron Prins wrote:
> >half the team (Cyclops, Storm, Banshee, Gambit, Forge, etc) would go
> >down in the first segment of computer-controlled repulsor fire.
>
> Don't be so sure. Cyclops can dish out (admittedly, he can't take, though)
That's the big problem with the X-Men... so many of their heavy hitters
are "eggshells with howitzers", to borrow a phrase from the Ars Magica
list. Havok, Storm, Cyclops, Banshee all have impressive offensive
capabilities, but they're just normal humans in terms of toughness.
Whereas most of the Avengers' big guns (Thor, Iron Man, Quasar, Gilgamesh,
etc) can both dish out and take attacks in the high-level superhuman
range.
> >The big 3 Avengers (Thor, Iron Man, Captain America) would make a good fight
> >for a dozen X-Folks, barring massed egoists.
>
> There's the crux of the matter. The X-Men have mentalists.
Their mentalists suffer from the same problem, though.
From: ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:17:42 +0000
Subject: Re: Extra Time on a Triggered Power
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Stainless Steel Rat said:
> Also remember: that Extra Time limitation means that she cannot prepare her
> formula during combat, so she will have an extremely limited supply.
> Personally, I would use Charges instead of Extra Time.
Actually, she has Charges, too.
----------------------------------
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com)
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf
and the PANGAEA Project!
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:28:01 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> Normally, an EB (or any attack power) takes a 1/2 phase action to
> use. The full phase extra time amount means it takes a whole phase to
> use.
I see no support for this in the rules. If a Power has "Extra Time - 1
Phase", it means just that... it takes an _extra_ phase.
From: ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:11:18 +0000
Subject: Cardboard Heroes Scale
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
What would be the right dimensions for cardboard minis? 1/2" x 1"?
Guy
----------------------------------
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com)
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/
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Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:59:15 -0500 (EST)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Greetings
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>-> Please. Storm alone could take out Iron Man, assuming she wasn't busy
>-> battling Thor. Either overload his armor with continious lightning bolts, or
>-> put him through a Tornado or two. And Shellhead still (AFAIK) doesn't have
>-> squid for defenses against mentalists. Iron Man alone could not take the
>-> X-Men, not even close.
>->
>
>A lightning bolt would only make him stronger. He absorbs electricity.
Only to a point. Then it's overload-city.
>Enough X-Men could take him, if he didn't get the egoists first. But
That's one pretty damn big fundamental IF.
>half the team (Cyclops, Storm, Banshee, Gambit, Forge, etc) would go
>down in the first segment of computer-controlled repulsor fire.
Don't be so sure. Cyclops can dish out (admittedly, he can't take, though)
large amounts of punishment. So can Storm and Banshee if they put their
minds to it. And Forge, hey, given prep time, Forge can build just about
anything, including Iron Man disablers.
>The big 3 Avengers (Thor, Iron Man, Captain America) would make a good fight
>for a dozen X-Folks, barring massed egoists.
There's the crux of the matter. The X-Men have mentalists.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:00:34 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Champions 5th Edition
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From: "Michael Nunn" <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
>
> I am going to go out on a limb here, but I don't want to see a "Whole
> New Champions" in 5th edition. In fact I don't really want to see a
> 5th edition, unless the main thrust of it is addition and improvement
> over 4th ed.
>
> I like 4th edition, no it's not perfect, but what I don't like I
> modify, and what I don't like and what Vox doesn't like could be
> completely different. One of the great things about Hero is that is
> is so easy to gear for your own game.
>
> Just my humble opinion...
>
> Michael
I agree completely. I think a lot of people believe that a '5th Edition'
will fix their *particular* complaints with the rules. You don't need a
'5th Edition' to do that, just say "in my game, this is how its going to be."
Curt Hicks
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 07:22:46 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
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Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
> > A: You may make only a single attack action during a Phase. You may
> > activate as many attack powers as you have time, Endurance, and
> > framework point allocations to activate, but you may still only make
> > one attack action.
>
> Actually, this is only one of what were originally two
> (conflicting) answers. One somehow disappeared into the mists. Hmmm.
Oh, dear! I did not mean to open a can of worms.
>
> And actually, it's not as clear as it may seem. You may activate
> the powers, but it does say only one attack (action). Is that to be read
> only one attack power actually attacks?
I am at a loss to figure why (barring contrived circumstances) one
would activate two attack powers and use only one to make an attack.
Under my general principle of construction that people do not go to great
lengths to explain that you are at liberty to perform the absurd, I have
to believe that this means that one may (special effect permitting) fire
two attacks at the same target, but only at the same target, even if the
powers are not linked.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 07:23:28 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Crossover Adventures
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At 12:35 AM 12/12/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< Perhaps a CU / San Angelo crossover adventure could be written.>>
>
> That is certainly a possibility. We've also talked with Hero Games about
the
>possibility of doing a SA/C:NM crossover product. Don't worry, it'd only be a
>one shot book. ;)
Could also include original Champions Universe in there, either as an
alternate to the New Champions Universe or as option as a third crossover
universe?
(You could even make things particularly hairy, and throw in the Strike
Force Universe for good measure if Allston okays the idea. Heck, he might
even be a good choice to write it.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
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Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 07:34:46 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
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At 07:43 PM 12/11/97 -0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>>JD> This is where I have problems with your logic. (There may be no real
>>JD> problem, I'm just not getting it.) If I have Extra Time on my Energy
>>JD> Blast, then, when it activates, I won't have the 1/2 Phase to attack
>>JD> with it. I couldn't use it to hit someone for damage. Could you
>>JD> explain, extending your prior arguments, how I *would*?
>>
>>You would not. "Extra Time" is a limitation that makes it take longer than
>>a 0-phase action to activate a power. If you have an extra half-phase
>>activation time requirement on your EB, it requires an extra half-phase
>>action to activate it. Once active you may use it per standard combat time
>>requirements.
>>
>First off, thanks for the response.
>Secondly, you can't take "Extra Time" for just an extra 1/2 Phase. The
>smallest increment is "Full Phase." So, it takes a Full Phase to turn this
>Power on, and then I don't have the 1/2 Phase you say I need to target it.
>So... it makes Energy Blast, Flash, et al useless for attacking?
>How about Dark Seraph in Classic Enemies? Did they goof on him?
>Not trying to be antagonistic, just questioning your argument.
I think you may be misreading the "Extra Time" Limitation.
The chart lists the actual time it takes to use the Power, not the
additional time.
At least, that's always been my understanding.
---
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Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 07:49:13 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Sabotage
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At 04:03 AM 12/12/97 -0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>>>I like the fact that it goes along with the "-1/10 Active Points" from the
>>>RSR lim. I don't know how much the last one should be, tho... maybe -1/10
>>>Real Points difference in the change? ie Tacking a "minor" lim on a larger
>>>power is harder than putting it on a minor one. Weakening the motor
>>>(Running or Flight) would probably be harder than weakening (to the same
>>>extent) the radio. (Maybe. Just a thought.)
>>
>> Someone else, in a direct email, made a similar point, and it was in
>>fact my first instinct. As the same person pointed out, though, this would
>>be rather difficult for most folks to calculate, especially on the fly.
>>
>I agree with that, but... If I'm gonna have an NPC sabotage a PCs vehicle,
>it'll probably be planned, not "on the fly." And (one would hope) the PCs
>would do a little planning for sabotage, too... or would be too heroic to
>do it.
>Having a detailed "Character" sheet for each vehicle would help very *very*
>much. Did you include a blank one for photocopy in the book? <hint, hint>
Since that's a design consideration, I'm leaving that to the editor
(which, at this time, looks like it'll be Mr. Harlick). I will recommend
it, however, and make a couple of suggestions for changes from the basic
character sheet (mainly no-brainers like changing the stats to vehicles'
stats, and making the illo space horizontal instead of vertical).
---
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Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 07:49:26 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Regenerating limbs
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Our story so far: Rick Holding proposed using Drain/BODY to represent a
limb-loss special effect. I objected on various grounds, including the
fact that limbs would regrow as the drain faded. In reply:
Rick Holding wrote:
>
> > I am fully aware that drains fade. But even the write up for Drain says "By
> moving the return rate far down the time chart, it is possible to effectively destroy
> an opponent's characteristic or power."
>
>
> Continueing from above. Moving the recovery down to 5pts/year is not
> anywhere near far enough. Make it recover 1 character point per 100 years
> (+3? +3 1/2?). This means immortals will grow back lost body parts. Why not? Being
> immortal probarly should include some sort of slow regen. But normals will not
> regrow lost limbs.
1 point/century would be equivalent to 1/500y, which is fourteen steps on
the time chart, which is +3 1/2! Your limb-loss attack is now costing
an impressive 35 active points per die! Of course, you would take some
sort of limitation for the fact that the Drain cannot affect more points
than are represented by a limb, and cost advantage was not part of your
argument, but the fact is worthy of remark. This does have an
interesting literary precedent: IIRC, Larry Niven postulated that humans
would gain some ability to regrow lost body parts if their life span were
sufficiently enhanced.
I still think that Transform is preferrable in this context that it is
the *only* power that can give a character a character disadvantage.
This is why Transform is used in Hero Almanac I to represent most Curses.
If you take away an arm, you are not so much taking away BODY (again, I
don't think that one-armed men are more easily killed by a given blow
than two-armed ones), as you are placing limitations on various other
powers and characteristics. STR is less useful if one does not have two
hands with which to balance. DEX is less useful if people can get to the
side away from your arm. One probably has an OCV/DCV penalty in HTH
combat. And so on.
I would *not* be comfortable with granting those effects as SFX of the
Drain, and I would find it very hard to write up a set of linked powers,
or a multi-power Drain, that does the job. On the other hand (the one
that is left after we lose an arm) Major Transform can readily do all
these things.
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 07:50:12 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Sabotage
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At 04:06 AM 12/12/97 -0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>>>The other thing is... did we ever reach a consensus on how much an
>>>"Everyman" Vehicle is worth? I liked the part about the multiple of your
>>>wealth...
>>
>> I think what was finally arrived at was 20 points, plus the point value
>>of your wealth. Anyway, that's what I've put in the book.
>>
>Okay, sounds familiar, and (after print) will be *mostly* official. : )
>I'll start implementing it now. Although they *will* have to rewrite their
>stuff when I get the book... lol.
>Say, is this going to be paper, or disk? I can't recall... disk, I assume.
> You're working directly *for* HERO, right?
Yes. It's going into the Hero Plus line, and will be available
primarily on disk, with paper versions available, just like the existing
line.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
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Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:04:55 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: TUSV: Velocity and Damage
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At 02:13 AM 12/12/97 -0500, Len Carpenter wrote:
>Here's another take on a previous TUSV thread on the damage caused by a
>moving vehicle hitting a building.
>
>To get a better grasp on the nature of damage energy, a simple guideline I
>adopted some time ago was to treat 1 DC as roughly equal to 50 joules of
>energy. I read somewhere that a typical punch is in the 25-100 joule
>range, so this seemed reasonable. For every additional DC, the energy
>involved doubles--a 2d6 punch is about 100 joules, a 3d6 kick about 200
>joules, and so on. This neatly follows the same numbers in the
>progression of the doubling of lift mass with increasing STR.
Say, you wouldn't happen to have handy the conversions for joules into,
say, degrees of heat or ampres of electricity and such, would you?
>Let's consider a car with a mass of 1,600 kg racing at 25" per segment (50
>meters per second, or 180 kph). That's 0.5 * (1,600) * (50)^2 = 2
>megajoules, also about 16d6 damage energy. Of course, the AT round, being
>much smaller, will strike with a much greater pressure, and pressure is
>probably the most accurate way to measure damage energy, though more
>complex. An AT gun is a more effective way to take out an armored vehicle
>than ramming it with a Buick.
Mass, mass, mass, argh... I'm going to have to adjust that section.
(I'd had a feeling I was missing something there.)
>These damage figures agree fairly well with the vehicle damage charts in
>the old Champions II supplement. Damage energy in those charts depends on
>the speed of the vehicle in inches per segment. For every doubling of the
>vehicle's mass above 100 kg, an additional 1d6 damage is caused.
And that's the adjustment I'm going to have to make.
>To be really technical, the initial kinetic energy of a moving vehicle
>will not be transformed solely into damage energy to the object struck, or
>even be simply divided between damage energy to target and vehicle. There
>are also the final kinetic energies of mover and target, plus wasted
>energy in the form of heat and sound. All this complexity made me balk at
>trying to change the official Move By and Move Through rules to be more
>"realistic." Too many variables involved, such as the hardness and
>elasticity of the objects involved.
I'm with you here. There's a limit to how much realism a game system
can take before you have to turn to either computer modeling... or another
system.
>Very hard or elastic objects, like billiard balls and hockey pucks,
>usually don't shatter when hit; they're knocked back with great speed.
>Concrete and brick, though hard, aren't terribly elastic, and will crack
>or shatter if dropped from a height, unlike a rubber ball. Flesh and bone
>are even less elastic, and will suffer considerable damage energy when
>struck, with much less energy taking the form of kinetic energy of the
>body flying back (That's why knockback damage is only a fraction of the
>initial damage energy. Subtract an average of 7 from damage energy, and
>you halve that energy repeatedly seven times, so that knockback energy is
>only about 1/128 of damage energy--perhaps here's an argument for changing
>the knockback rule to make typical knockback energy even greater.)
On that last statement, I'd be for it, but mostly for folks who want to
have either extremely realistic or extremely fantastic games (the latter
being the kind of thing where the silver age Superman punches Brainiac into
orbit, or the Hulk knocks Iron Man halfway across town).
>I'm no engineer, though, so I'd like to hear from anyone more
>knowledgeable who can criticize or correct this approach. For example,
>applying this method to falling damage doesn't come close to producing the
>recommended 30d6 damage for a terminal velocity skydive sans parachute, so
>some modifications (i.e. kludges) would be in order for the true realism
>freaks.
Engineers' remarks are, of course, always welcome.
---
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Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:16:59 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
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I myself wouldn't really want to see a Champions 5th Edition if it makes 4th
edition characters and rules a thing of the past. A face lift, or upgrade
to 4th edition is fine. A few minor changes to a character here or there
would be fine due to the rules. But please don't come out with 5th Edition
where we have to start over from scratch or need to switch character sheets
for the new game. I've heard examples of this done (cough cough, Fuzion)
and I really don't want to deal with it. I'd gladly buy a 5th Edition book
provided a.) I don't have to make a major overhaul to my game and b.)
HeroMaker had at least had a patch for 5th Edition if it didn't still work.
I'm sorry with the amount of characters I churn out Heromaker is a blessing,
losing it is a big turn off to me. I enjoy 4th Edition rules, I get by with
them just fine, if there is a rule challenge from one of my players, I
usually post it here on the list and after reading much debate I make a
decision as the judge of my game. Well, once again, just thought I'd toss
out what I thought of the 5th Edition concept. Truthfully, I'd like to see
more made for the game, then the game remade again and again. Take it easy
and talk at you later.
Sparx
=====================================================
Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 11:26:12 -0500
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org>
Subject: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
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> I think you may be misreading the "Extra Time" Limitation.
> The chart lists the actual time it takes to use the Power, not the
> additional time.
> At least, that's always been my understanding.
> ---
Actually, the Limitation really does say that the time listed is extra; thus,
Extra Time: 1 Phase makes an attack take 1.5 Phases. However, it also says
that you can do whatever you want in the extra time (except make an attack if
you're activating an attack power). Most people who envision Extra Time don't
have this in mind.
Everyone I've ever played with uses "attack takes an extra 1/2 phase, during
which you can't do anything else" as a Limitation of equivalent value.
Geoff Speare
X-Sender: geoff@emerald.omg.org
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 11:28:18 -0500
From: Geoff Speare <geoff@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Velocity and Damage
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>knowledgeable who can criticize or correct this approach. For example,
>applying this method to falling damage doesn't come close to producing the
>recommended 30d6 damage for a terminal velocity skydive sans parachute, so
>some modifications (i.e. kludges) would be in order for the true realism
>freaks.
IMO, the 30d6 number is a wee bit overrated compared to the rest of the
system. 30 BODY is enough to distintegrate a normal; given a normal's
survivability in just about every other aspect of the system, I'd argue
that a consistent velocity damage rule which had terminal velocity doing
less damage was not necessarily broken.
Geoff Speare
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 12:52:56 EST
Subject: Re: Ninjato
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< That is interesting, considering that many ninja-to were converted from
katana.>>
<< Then why would the blade be heavier and straight? And if the blade was the
same, why would the sword do different damage? If only the handle of a
ninjato was heavier, then it would not explain the +1 stun mult.>>
I hope nobody minds if I chime in here, but having done *extensive* research
into this and similar subjects, I can answer this with some authority. (Ahem
<G>).
The ninjato was not "converted" from katana.
The katana varied in length over th3e centuries, but was basically 2.5 to 3
feet long, with a curved blade (also varying in the depth of the curve; the
Bisen style swords having the deepest curve). The katana was designed so that
the last 6 to 9" or so of the blade was used to deliver the devastating slash.
They were very flexible and yet very strong, so they were very lethal.
The ninjato were commonly forged by ninja themselves, and consisted of a
shorter, relatively straight blade (it has a *slight* curve). The primary
reasons for the shorter blade include: making it easier to draw and to weild
in confined areas (in forests, hallways, etc.); easier and less expensive to
produce. In addition, the extra space in the end of the saya (sheath) could be
used to store tiny tools, poison, or whatever.
The ninjato was typically used to slash an opponent via a series of
thrusting slashes, including "return slashes," which were unorthodox compared
to traditional samurai styles of kenjutsu (fencing). For example, if a ninja
blocked a samurai's sword and the ninja's sword was pointing past the
samurai's shoulder, the ninja need only drop the ninjato to the samurai's neck
and quickly pull the ninjato back, cutting the jugular (sp?) vein. :)
And the ninjato was never anything but "average" quality, compared to the
katana which could be made at "very" high quality. To the samurai, the katana
was a reflection of his soul. To the ninja, the ninjato was a tool, no more or
less important than his shuriken, blowgun, outfit, rope ladder, smoke bombs,
etc.
The tsuba (handguard) was oversized and of thicker metal than the
traditional katana, as the ninja could use it as a step, to facilitate getting
over walls, up trees, etc. There are a hundred other ninja gadgets and tricks
associated with the ninjato, but I won't go into them here. ;)
As for damage, the ninjato was somewhere between the length of a wakizashi
and a katana, although (in Hero System terms) it could do the same damagae as
a katana, I suppose.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 12:52:58 EST
Subject: Re: Seeking Those Star Hero (II) Authors
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<<< The problem is that, as far as I know, they don't know about it yet, and
I'd like to at least have emailed permission from one of them to feel
comfortable with putting the stuff into the final work.>>
If you are writing your book to send to Hero (or GRG) to be published, then
you don't need their permission. But I would check with Steve Peterson, too.
You can reach Albert Deschesne at ADeschesne@aol.com.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 12:52:58 EST
Subject: Storm, Iron Man and the wimpy X-Men
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Any chance we could change the subject of the thread? ;)
Besides, everyone knows Spider-Man could whomp every one of those losers,
anyway! <LOL>
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 12:52:59 EST
Subject: Re: Greetings
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< In other words, they may be San Angelo's main hero team, but they're
probably not the premier team in the whole world, right?>>
What I will tell you is this. We are not going to be introducing any
superhero *teams* that are of higher status than the PCs in any of our books.
We may throw in the occasional hero NPC from another city, state or country,
but as far as the San Angelinos are concerned, the PCs are tops. They receive
the most press coverage, the free coffee at diners, the most invites to talk
shows, etc. ;)
It's entirely up to the GM if he wants to have other heroes in the world
that are "more powerful" than the PCs. But that's important, because we feel
that the PCs' place in the "world" is a very personal thing, individual to
each campaign. All we're doing is providing the basic foundation for the PCs
being the most important heroes. It's a lot easier to *add* more important
heroes to the published setting than to try to *erase* them from published
material, IMO.
Anyway, that's why we're doing it that way.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 12:53:00 EST
Subject: Re: Crossover Adventures (Re: Going off on a little tangent)
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< Naw, I think [Heroic Adventures] #3 is supposed to be Fantasy Hero. >>
Correctomundo.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 12:53:02 EST
Subject: Re: San Angelo (Re: Greetings)
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< Oh yeah, but what about *Atlantean* princes, huh. <g>>>
If that's what you want to include, then by all means. ;)
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 12:53:03 EST
Subject: Re: PCs and Timelines
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< Nobig deal, right?>>
None at all.
Mark @ GRG
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:34:11 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Chaos Theory
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Tokyo Mark wrote:
>> Yeah, it's a plug for a friend of mine...
>> GURPS Warehouse 23 and GURPS Black Ops, by S. John Ross. (Well, the second
>> one was co-authored, but still...)
>> I own Warehouse, and it has *plenty* of notes on artifacts and whatnot.
>> Good bibliography, too.
>> Black Ops, I've not read the whole way through. But it has an organization
>> like the one you are describing, w/o the humor (I hope!). It describes a
>> campaign world w/ EVERYTHING, tho.
>> Illuminati is the straight conspiracy line thing, and IOU is Illuminati
>> University. (What's the O for, you say? You're not cleared for that.)
>> Comedy, but moreso than you are doing (if possible).
>
>I liked Black Ops. I looked forward to Warehouse 23 and was then
>disappointed by how much of it was silly stuff like temporal stasis in a
>toothpaste tube. I had been hoping for a good conspiracy book and got
>comedy:)
>
Hey co-authored Black Ops, and I can't remember which part was his.
Warehouse 23... yes, it was silly, but 75% of it *was* real conspiracy
stuff, so I don't know what to tell you. He researched it extensively, and
is starting his author notes on his homepage
(www.cybercity.com/blueroom/blueroom.html) You could also probably email
him and ask him about it.
Besides, conspiracy often masquerades as comedy, just to throw you off.
And if you can't laugh at the Secret Masters, then you're just not looking
at them right. Or something.
I don't remember the temporal stasis w/ fluoride. Were you being
facetious? I *do* remember all the wacked theories about the black
helicopters/cattle mutilation. Woo!
- Jerry
>
>
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:48:29 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Sabotage
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At 07:50 AM 12/12/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 04:06 AM 12/12/97 -0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>>Say, is this going to be paper, or disk? I can't recall... disk, I assume.
>> You're working directly *for* HERO, right?
>
> Yes. It's going into the Hero Plus line, and will be available
>primarily on disk, with paper versions available, just like the existing
>line.
>
Thank you for the reply, sir. I just realized, tho. I had read some posts
by Steve Peterson on r.g.frp.s-h and he said that the Hero Plus books would
also contain Fuzion stats. Is this true of your manuscript? Are you just
doing the Hero component, and then they will translate to Fuzion for you?
Were you aware of this? I will 2x-check the NewGroup, but I thought that
was the statement...
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:51:31 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
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At 07:34 AM 12/12/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 07:43 PM 12/11/97 -0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>>>JD> This is where I have problems with your logic. (There may be no real
>>>JD> problem, I'm just not getting it.) If I have Extra Time on my Energy
>>>JD> Blast, then, when it activates, I won't have the 1/2 Phase to attack
>>>JD> with it. I couldn't use it to hit someone for damage. Could you
>>>JD> explain, extending your prior arguments, how I *would*?
>>>
>>>You would not. "Extra Time" is a limitation that makes it take longer than
>>>a 0-phase action to activate a power. If you have an extra half-phase
>>>activation time requirement on your EB, it requires an extra half-phase
>>>action to activate it. Once active you may use it per standard combat time
>>>requirements.
>>>
>>First off, thanks for the response.
>>Secondly, you can't take "Extra Time" for just an extra 1/2 Phase. The
>>smallest increment is "Full Phase." So, it takes a Full Phase to turn this
>>Power on, and then I don't have the 1/2 Phase you say I need to target it.
>>So... it makes Energy Blast, Flash, et al useless for attacking?
>>How about Dark Seraph in Classic Enemies? Did they goof on him?
>>Not trying to be antagonistic, just questioning your argument.
>
> I think you may be misreading the "Extra Time" Limitation.
> The chart lists the actual time it takes to use the Power, not the
>additional time.
> At least, that's always been my understanding.
>
I'm not misreading it, and that's always been my understanding as well (and
how I intend to continue playing it). But SSRat's assertion was that the
1/2 Phase to attack was not inherent in an EB, but was separate. With his
reasoning, tacking Extra Time onto a Power would mean you wouldn't have the
1/2 Phase available to attack with it with. Any questions? : )
- Jerry
Maybe I should just come out and tell him I think he's wrong, instead of
trying to be polite.
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:01:33 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
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At 11:26 AM 12/12/97 -0500, Geoffrey Speare wrote:
>> I think you may be misreading the "Extra Time" Limitation.
>> The chart lists the actual time it takes to use the Power, not the
>> additional time.
>> At least, that's always been my understanding.
>> ---
>
>Actually, the Limitation really does say that the time listed is extra; thus,
>Extra Time: 1 Phase makes an attack take 1.5 Phases. However, it also says
>that you can do whatever you want in the extra time (except make an attack if
>you're activating an attack power). Most people who envision Extra Time don't
>have this in mind.
>
>Everyone I've ever played with uses "attack takes an extra 1/2 phase, during
>which you can't do anything else" as a Limitation of equivalent value.
>
My first reaction to this was, "Yow! How did I miss that!" (And,
tangentially, "This could mean Rat was right!") But I looked, and it
doesn't explicitly say it is truly additional time. It constantly refers
to the time... "longer than usual," "a month" (not a month and a phase),
"the Extra time," and "lengthy start-up time." I don't think it's
conclusive to say that this is additional time, although a case could be
made for it.
And, actually, yes, I have been using it to mean what you said, standing
there for the whole Phase just to activate one Power. I guess that was
wrong, at least, but I guess it's now also a house rule. Good thing the
Players never want to take this one, huh?
- Jerry
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: Storm, Iron Man and the wimpy X-Men
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:07:45 -0500 (EST)
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> Any chance we could change the subject of the thread? ;)
>
> Besides, everyone knows Spider-Man could whomp every one of those losers,
> anyway! <LOL>
>
> Mark @ GRG
>
Yeah, well the Tick could beat the Avengers, the X-Men, AND
Spiderman!!!(*1)
-Eric
Footnotes Section
*1: with the help of the JLA
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 11:33:04 -0800
From: Wayne Wallace <atra@mindspring.com>
Organization: APA (American Powergamers Association)
Subject: Re: Seeking Those Star Hero (II) Authors
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> I'm trying to find e-mail addresses for David Berge, Albert Deschesne,
> Can anyone help me here?
Dave Berge would be at david.berge@october.com
Wayne
--
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Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:36:53 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
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> I am at a loss to figure why (barring contrived circumstances) one
> would activate two attack powers and use only one to make an attack.
> Under my general principle of construction that people do not go to great
> lengths to explain that you are at liberty to perform the absurd, I have
> to believe that this means that one may (special effect permitting) fire
> two attacks at the same target, but only at the same target, even if the
> powers are not linked.
Ah, but as I and (especially) Vox have been pointing out, you
don't just take a 0-phase action. You take that action to activate but
must also make an attack roll to use an attack power. That does end your
action, and thus you are unable to activate another power.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:37:54 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Avengers vs. X-Men
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>> Pretty good, actually, especially if she gets a few other Avengers first
>> (like Captain America). Rogue used to the true 'extent' of her abilities is
>> plenty damn scary (reference Avengers Annual #10).
>
>But of course, this was back when she has a villain. When she actually
>joined the X-Men something had to be done because let's face it - somebody
>who can handle Thor would also mop up most of the X-Men's villains
>singlehandedly in pretty short order. Since joining the heroes, I can only
>think of a few times when she's tried to use her absorption ability on an
>adversary - and offhand, I can't think of even a single time when it
>actually _worked_.
Even at the start, Rogue's powers weren't terribly reliable. For example,
the first time she absorbed Storm, she had basically no control over the
powers gained. In Avengers Annual #10, she had absorbed only Ms. Marvel
(permanent, and used the knowledge gained to get Cap), Captain America, and
Thor. Lots of raw power there, but not a lot of 'tricky' powers.
As a X-Man, Rogue generally only pulls out the absorption power when faced
with a Prime Nasty (tm) like Mojo or Juggernaut. She couldn't handly Mojo,
but she _did_ knockout Juggs on multiple occasions, even if she couldn't
absorb his 'full power'. Note she couldn't fully absorb Magus either, but
she could siphon off a good chunk of his 'power' for a while.
>> >And of course, there's always the Quasar problem... he's a full-fledged
>> Well, if every person who's ever been an Avenger is going to be dragged into
>> this, then every X-Man has to be as well. Rachel Summers is plenty cosmic
>> level herself...
>
>But Quasar still slapped her down the last time they fought.
He did? Well, Rachael often does dumb stuff in combat. Though she did, IIRC,
kick around Nova at one point.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:39:10 -0600
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net
Organization: Redbow Antiques
Subject: Atmospheric FTL
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I personnally think that they said FTL can not be used in the
atmosphere because anyone who us going that fast will realistically
disappear from one point and instantaneously appear at anthor. This
sounds to me like Teleporation.
If a player asked me for this effect I would have to tell him to buy
Teleportation. I think buying FTL usable in the atmosphere instead of
Teleporation is just a way to save points.
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Timing of Powers (was: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage)
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>>>>> "JD" == Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> writes:
JD> First off, thanks for the response.
You are welcome.
JD> Secondly, you can't take "Extra Time" for just an extra 1/2 Phase. The
JD> smallest increment is "Full Phase."
If so I must have been remembering the earlier version of Extra Time (from
Gadgets!, I think), which did have a 1/2 Phase increment. Sorry about
that. It does not change how time works, though.
JD> So, it takes a Full Phase to turn this Power on, and then I don't have
JD> the 1/2 Phase you say I need to target it.
Yes, you do: it comes from your next action phase.
This is part of why activation and use are different things: it takes X
time (normally a 0-phase action) to activate a power, and then it takes Y
time to use it in a particular fashion (a half-phase action if you are
making an attack).
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Mail-Copies-To: never
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
TRG> Actually, it's pretty simple, but Rat seems to miss it.
No, I get it. Watch carefully.
TRG> Normally, an EB (or any attack power) takes a 1/2 phase action to
TRG> use.
Normally, an EB (or any other power used to make an attack) takes a
half-phase attack action to use.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
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>>>>> "SB" == Sam Bell <Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM> writes:
SB> Dispell, Flash, RKA, etc are all instant powers.
So is Aid, and it does not require an attack roll to use.
SB> Why don't you just say that being able to use these powers without
SB> attacking is a good house rule? Why do you persist in these lame
SB> attempts to find support in the rules?
Because it arbitrarilly makes some powers work differently from all other
powers in the book.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 12 Dec 1997 14:52:01 -0500
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>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
>> Activation of a power is a 0-phase action.
>> Presence attacks are no time actions.
BG> You must be using a different printing of the book than I am,
BG> because this is all mine has here, exactly as printed:
Look near the beginning of the Combat section. There is a chart listing
the time requirements of various types of actions.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA/ Desol Super Dodge
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 12 Dec 1997 14:59:46 -0500
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
TRG> Anyway, what doesn't work. Desolid comes with two abilities --
TRG> the ability to move through solid objects and the ability to not be hit
TRG> by attacks.
No, Desolidification makes a character insubstantial. As a result a
desolidified character cannot be affected by "substantial" things, nor can
he affect them.
Note carefully that that it does not make the character unhittable. You
can still "hit" a desolidified character with a normal punch. It will not
do any damage, but you will still connect.
Right there we have a contradiction between the desired effect -- being
unhittable -- and the game mechanics.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
\ Earth, presumably from outer space.
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Ninjato
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Date: 12 Dec 1997 15:10:12 -0500
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>>>>> "G" == GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> writes:
G> The ninjato was not "converted" from katana.
I see we have a misunderstanding. "Ninjato" can be either a specific type
of sword, or literally "ninja sword", a sword owned and used by a ninja.
*Some* ninjato (the second meaning) were converted from katana, and many of
them had their blades straightened in the conversion.
Remember, traditionally, ninja did not have much by way of wealth so they
could not afford to buy weapons or the materials to make them. They made
do with what they could steal or loot.
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\
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: How do I buy these abilites??
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 21:10:03 +0000 (GMT)
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> >And those are just off the top of my head. Don't you read any DC?
> The Flash (Wally west) can't quite do FTL, he can almost do the speed of
> light, but at the speed of light he crosses over into the 'speed force'
> the source of power for all DC speedsters (and the reason DC has so many
> more speedsters than Marvel, and they are so much more powerful).
>
Really? Cause in a recent issue of Flash he runs FTL.
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:12:35 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA/ Desol Super Dodge
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> TRG> Anyway, what doesn't work. Desolid comes with two abilities --
> TRG> the ability to move through solid objects and the ability to not be hit
> TRG> by attacks.
>
> No, Desolidification makes a character insubstantial. As a result a
> desolidified character cannot be affected by "substantial" things, nor can
> he affect them.
One possible explination of the game effects granted by the
power. However, as I pointed out, this is Hero and any aspect of a power
can be removed with a modifier.
> Note carefully that that it does not make the character unhittable. You
> can still "hit" a desolidified character with a normal punch. It will not
> do any damage, but you will still connect.
>
> Right there we have a contradiction between the desired effect -- being
> unhittable -- and the game mechanics.
Not a valid agument, Rat. It's also a valid construct in Hero to
buy a dodge using the Block maneuver. One does not have to actually stop
an incoming attack with the Block. Basically, in Champions, being
unhittable (totally) and taking no damage (totally) are the same thing.
It's just a matter of the mechanics used to represent a power, though both
can be used for the same thing.
It's just a question of SFX. The attacks look as if they should
hit, but he moves faster than the naked eye and they appear to pass right
through him. There you go. Oh, BTW, why don't you model the power for
us, at a semi-resonable cost-level.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:15:16 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> SB> Dispell, Flash, RKA, etc are all instant powers.
>
> So is Aid, and it does not require an attack roll to use.
Um, I'd require an attack roll for a resist attempt to Aid. I'd
also require an attack roll for a ranged Aid. Even if unresisted, I'd
rule that the attack action was spent by an automatic success attack roll.
> SB> Why don't you just say that being able to use these powers without
> SB> attacking is a good house rule? Why do you persist in these lame
> SB> attempts to find support in the rules?
>
> Because it arbitrarilly makes some powers work differently from all other
> powers in the book.
Um. Yea. There are different types of powers in the Hero Rules,
Rat. Are you just now noticing this? In general, they can be broken down
into four main groups: Attack, Defend, Move, and Sense. There.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:16:44 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> TRG> Normally, an EB (or any attack power) takes a 1/2 phase action to
> TRG> use.
>
> Normally, an EB (or any other power used to make an attack) takes a
> half-phase attack action to use.
So where's the problem. You seem to actually understand the
rules, now.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:22:29 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Sparx wrote:
> I myself wouldn't really want to see a Champions 5th Edition if it makes 4th
> edition characters and rules a thing of the past. A face lift, or upgrade
> to 4th edition is fine. A few minor changes to a character here or there
> would be fine due to the rules.
> I'd gladly buy a 5th Edition book
> provided a.) I don't have to make a major overhaul to my game and b.)
I somewhat agree. Fourth is almost fine, but I think needs to be refined a
bit. I would do the
following:
I would:
1. Add an advantage called "Advantaged" which would be the exact counterpart
to "Limited".
2. Rewrite Regeneration to be based on moving how often you get Body
recoveries up or down the time chart. Then add an option for regenerating past
death
and regrowing severed/lost body parts.
3. Add in some actual solid in game uses for COM.
4. Change 'Change Environment' to have some better in-game applications,
and/or make it easier to cover larger areas.
5. Introduce some options for long-range movement, like a super-sonic flight
or global/Interplanetary Teleport.
6. Raise the basic point level without raising the basic power level to
account for the fact that there are more background skills available than there
where when the 250
limit was set in 3rd edition. Give guidlines for how to do higher or lower power
levels.
7. Steal a few of the advatages from GURPS, like Richocet.
8. Add more disads. One's like Duty, Addiction (unlike dependancy, doesn't do
damage, is an offshoot of either psych or phys).
9. Add in a 'Quirks' system like that in GURPS
10. Add a section discussing diferent styles of Super Hero gaming.
11. Publish the Rules in a Hero System Book, and the Champions Source
Material in a book on
the size of that used for Fantasy Hero.
12. Present options for both versions of linked. As well as a 'Combine'
advantage, or
at least a suggestion on why not to have such an advantage and how to
otherwise achieve
said special effect (ie: multipower slots or whatever.)
13. Put a patch to Heromaker on the Web.
14. Consult fans on the net and elsewhere for ideas which may be better than
mine.
--
Rook
Super Hero Links Page:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:23:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Stainless Steel Rat writes:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> So is Aid, and it does not require an attack roll to use.
Actually, it does; its just that the target of an aid ordinarily _wants_ to be
hit, and thus pending extreme circumstances the attack roll can be assumed to
be successful.
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 16:53:00 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA/ Desol Super Dodge
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Fri, 12 Dec 1997, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> >
> > Right there we have a contradiction between the desired effect -- being
> > unhittable -- and the game mechanics.
>
>
> Not a valid agument, Rat. It's also a valid construct in Hero to
> buy a dodge using the Block maneuver. One does not have to actually stop
> an incoming attack with the Block. Basically, in Champions, being
> unhittable (totally) and taking no damage (totally) are the same thing.
> It's just a matter of the mechanics used to represent a power, though both
> can be used for the same thing.
>
I tend to disagree with Rat as much as anyone, but I have to say I don't
care much for the Desolid Dodge construction. It brings up the question:
why should an "Affects Desolid" attack *hit* someone with a superhuman
dodge?
Admittedly, Affects Desolid is a pretty questionable advantage. I tend to
break it up by special effect (e.g. spiritual attacks, transdimensional
attacks, etc.) and apply relevent Affects Desolids to relevent
Desolidifictions. But I certainly wouldn't want to add "Incredible
Accuracy" as a possible Affects Desolid effect - that's what OCV levels
are for.
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 17:05:35 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Fri, 12 Dec 1997, Rook wrote:
> 1. Add an advantage called "Advantaged" which would be the exact counterpart
> to "Limited".
Note that such an entry would require clearly written rules as to its
intent!
> 2. Rewrite Regeneration to be based on moving how often you get Body
> recoveries up or down the time chart. Then add an option for regenerating past
> death and regrowing severed/lost body parts.
Sounds good.
> 3. Add in some actual solid in game uses for COM.
Yes. COM should be able to influence PRE skills. Complimentry COM rolls
should be allowed and explained.
> 4. Change 'Change Environment' to have some better in-game applications,
> and/or make it easier to cover larger areas.
An excellent re-write of Change Environment has been posted to this list
several times. Anyone working on a 5th Edition should look at it.
> 5. Introduce some options for long-range movement, like a super-sonic flight
> or global/Interplanetary Teleport.
Not a bad idea.
> 6. Raise the basic point level without raising the basic power level to
> account for the fact that there are more background skills available than there
> where when the 250 limit was set in 3rd edition. Give guidlines for how
> to do higher or lower powerlevels.
Discussion of what game stats mean in real world terms posibly?
> 8. Add more disads. One's like Duty, Addiction (unlike dependancy, doesn't do
> damage, is an offshoot of either psych or phys).
I like this suggestion. Alot!
> 9. Add in a 'Quirks' system like that in GURPS
Ditto!
> 10. Add a section discussing diferent styles of Super Hero gaming.
How about gaming in general. A 5th Edition HSR should be aimed towards
*all* genres.
> 11. Publish the Rules in a Hero System Book, and the Champions Source
> Material in a book on the size of that used for Fantasy Hero.
And if the 5th Edition rulebook as as thick as the BBB is now, I would
mind, provided that the extra room contained good examples, clearly
written rules and well thoughout sample characters.
> 12. Present options for both versions of linked. As well as a 'Combine'
> advantage, or at least a suggestion on why not to have such an advantage
> and how to otherwise achieve said special effect (ie: multipower slots
> or whatever.)
Taking a final, logical stand on some of the 'taboo' topics on this list
would be nice. Linked for example, what you can and cannot not due with
Desolid, how long it takes to throw a power, exactly what is ment by Extra
Time, how many powers can be actived in a Phase (and how many powers can
be used while making an attack roll?). Etc.
> 14. Consult fans on the net and elsewhere for ideas which may be better than
> mine.
I personally wouldn't mind seeing some nice clear explinations for
advantages like Invisible Power Effects and Indirect. Telling us the
advantage and value is nice, but a text example of what that means would
be nice.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:56:00 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 02:52 PM 12/12/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
>
>>> Activation of a power is a 0-phase action.
>>> Presence attacks are no time actions.
>
>BG> You must be using a different printing of the book than I am,
>BG> because this is all mine has here, exactly as printed:
>
>Look near the beginning of the Combat section. There is a chart listing
>the time requirements of various types of actions.
So the Arkelos example on page 170, which you were citing as a perfect
(and, as I understood you to say, self-contained) example of why your
argument is correct is actually dependent on a chart on page 141?
So let's see... Energy blast is, as Vox (or was it Tim?) has pointed
out, an attack which requires an Attack Roll. Arkelos' action thus took a
half Phase, and he was unable to make another action in the same Phase.
(Assuming, of course, that the GM was using the Speed Chart at that point;
I wouldn't be.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:56:13 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Extra Time
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 11:26 AM 12/12/97 -0500, Geoffrey Speare wrote:
>> I think you may be misreading the "Extra Time" Limitation.
>> The chart lists the actual time it takes to use the Power, not the
>> additional time.
>> At least, that's always been my understanding.
>
>Actually, the Limitation really does say that the time listed is extra; thus,
>Extra Time: 1 Phase makes an attack take 1.5 Phases. However, it also says
>that you can do whatever you want in the extra time (except make an attack if
>you're activating an attack power). Most people who envision Extra Time don't
>have this in mind.
Where exactly does it say that? I don't see that spelled out.
>Everyone I've ever played with uses "attack takes an extra 1/2 phase, during
>which you can't do anything else" as a Limitation of equivalent value.
While I do consider that a valid argument to an extent (I use that type
of argument myself), everyone I've ever played with uses "attack takes the
time listed."
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 17:06:46 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA/ Desol Super Dodge
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> I tend to disagree with Rat as much as anyone, but I have to say I don't
> care much for the Desolid Dodge construction. It brings up the question:
> why should an "Affects Desolid" attack *hit* someone with a superhuman
> dodge?
Ah. The one main argument and problem.
>
> Admittedly, Affects Desolid is a pretty questionable advantage. I tend to
Way too true. I personally usually don't allow it. But the
Affects Desol attacks are usually suggested to be "super Meta-Attacks"
that seem to be able to affect anything. Therefore, if they can affect a
ghost, living light, living air, mist, and whatnot for the one advantage,
and we accept it, we might at well accept it can affect Super Dodge.
However, arguing the construction doesn't work because it is
affected by a section of the rules that is broken and causes other legit
constructions not to work is not a valid argument.
-Tim Gilberg
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:35:18 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Sabotage
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 01:48 PM 12/12/97 -0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>>>Say, is this going to be paper, or disk? I can't recall... disk, I assume.
>>> You're working directly *for* HERO, right?
>>
>> Yes. It's going into the Hero Plus line, and will be available
>>primarily on disk, with paper versions available, just like the existing
>>line.
>>
>Thank you for the reply, sir. I just realized, tho. I had read some posts
>by Steve Peterson on r.g.frp.s-h and he said that the Hero Plus books would
>also contain Fuzion stats. Is this true of your manuscript? Are you just
>doing the Hero component, and then they will translate to Fuzion for you?
>Were you aware of this? I will 2x-check the NewGroup, but I thought that
>was the statement...
It was already my intent to have Fuzion stats in TUSV. I do have the
Fuzion download, but I'm not all that well versed in the system (otherwise
I'd have Fuzion stats for the Justifiers and other characters posted to my
website), so Mr. Harlick has stated that he'll do those for me.
I also have Fuzion conversion notes for the rules sections. Whether
there will be conversions for the equipment in the Sourcebook (which is
rather extensive) remains to be seen.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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X-Sender: mlknight@pop.mindspring.com
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 16:39:31 -0700
From: Michelle Knight <mlknight@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 05:05 PM 12/12/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>I personally wouldn't mind seeing some nice clear explinations for
>advantages like Invisible Power Effects and Indirect. Telling us the
>advantage and value is nice, but a text example of what that means would
>be nice.
Tell me about it. In my last group I had the pleasure (lie) of watching
three players have a 45 minute discussion (argument) about this very same
thing. It was interesting up to the point where they kept on going over
the same exact points repeatedly. Maybe if it had been more clearly
explained in the first place the "discussion" might have never taken place
and we could have gamed a little bit longer.
Michelle
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Crossover Adventures
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 23:43:13 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>
> << Could also include original Champions Universe in there, either as an
> alternate to the New Champions Universe or as option as a third crossover
> universe?>>
>
> I think that a book of crossover adventure with *several* universes would be
> neat. CU, NMU, and a few others I could think of would be cool. Maybe that' an
> idea -- a book of several such adventures, with conversions for each
> applicable gaming system. I don't see that the licensing would be too
> difficult (given our past success with licensing).
>
> So let me ask you, what universes would *you* folks like to see in such a
> product? Mind you, this would be a one-time product, not an ongoing series...
>
WildStorm
Astro City
DC
That's my pick
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 18:45:22 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 08:40 AM 12/12/97 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>
>> >You're being overly literal IMO. If an actual _Combat Maneuver_ isn't
>> >necessarily an attack action (re the example on BBB152), I don't see why
>> >an Energy Blast has to be.
>> >
>> OK, pulling out the BBB again was a pain, but...
>> Were you talking about Brace? I can't tell from your example. And that's
>> really an exception, not the rule.
>
>No, I meant the example on the bottom of the left column, where a
>character is mentioned as using a Strike in a non-attack roll, non-phase-
>ending manner.
>
Thank you for pointing that out. But I still have problems seeing that as
conclusive. It seems more like using Casual STR to break through/out of
and obstacle than a Strike.
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 18:48:01 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Avengers vs. X-Men
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 08:55 AM 12/12/97 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>On Fri, 12 Dec 1997, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>
>> >True, but given who ludicrously inconsistent this is with the limitations
>> >that have later been imposed on Rogue's abilities, I'm inclined to ignore
>> >it. Even if we assume she can do it, she's done it before, so Thor's going
>> >to be expecting it. What are her odds of successfully making skin-to-skin
>> >contact, then?
>>
>> Pretty good, actually, especially if she gets a few other Avengers first
>> (like Captain America). Rogue used to the true 'extent' of her abilities is
>> plenty damn scary (reference Avengers Annual #10).
>
>But of course, this was back when she has a villain. When she actually
>joined the X-Men something had to be done because let's face it - somebody
>who can handle Thor would also mop up most of the X-Men's villains
>singlehandedly in pretty short order. Since joining the heroes, I can only
>think of a few times when she's tried to use her absorption ability on an
>adversary - and offhand, I can't think of even a single time when it
>actually _worked_.
>
Spider-Man Team-Up (or was it Marvel Team-Up?) #100 (I think). Spider-man
and the X-men v. Juggernaut and Black Tom (who had part of the Juggernaut
power. Rogue absorbed the Juggy power from Caine, and went berserk as she
was taken over by his memories. Granted, that may not be "worked" by your
definition... <g>
Wasn't there a time where she absorbed Colossus, Nightcrawler, and Kitty
Pryde's powers to beat some big baddy? Was that the Brood?
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 18:50:32 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 09:28 AM 12/12/97 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> Normally, an EB (or any attack power) takes a 1/2 phase action to
>> use. The full phase extra time amount means it takes a whole phase to
>> use.
>
>I see no support for this in the rules. If a Power has "Extra Time - 1
>Phase", it means just that... it takes an _extra_ phase.
>
I think *my* confusion may have stemmed from "Extra Time - *Full* Phase"
which is how it is actually stated (emphasis mine). This led *me* (and
possibly Mr. Gilberg) to believe that this simply extended the time of
activation, not that it was an additive. In the text description of the
Limitation, it mentions a power that takes a month (not a
month-and-a-phase) to activate.
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 18:52:27 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Storm, Iron Man and the wimpy X-Men
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 12:52 PM 12/12/97 EST, Mark @ GRG wrote:
> Any chance we could change the subject of the thread? ;)
>
Okay. Looks like you already did. : ) I was kinda curious, did you send
this personally to everyone involved, or just me? I know it was also
forwarded to the list, so I got two copies, but...
> Besides, everyone knows Spider-Man could whomp every one of those losers,
>anyway! <LOL>
>
Well, when he had that cosmic power... yeah, I bet. He took on the X-Men
in the first Secret Wars, right? Didn't he do really well?
- Jerry, who likes this thread : )
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:53:26 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 05:05 PM 12/12/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>> 12. Present options for both versions of linked. As well as a 'Combine'
>> advantage, or at least a suggestion on why not to have such an advantage
>> and how to otherwise achieve said special effect (ie: multipower slots
>> or whatever.)
>
>Taking a final, logical stand on some of the 'taboo' topics on this list
>would be nice. Linked for example, what you can and cannot not due with
>Desolid, how long it takes to throw a power, exactly what is ment by Extra
>Time, how many powers can be actived in a Phase (and how many powers can
>be used while making an attack roll?). Etc.
In my current draft of TUSV I do address some of these issues, either
because I have to in order to present a technique found in fiction (such as
what the Robot Warriors game called, and I still call, Gangfire) or so I
can have a clear way to represent certain effects.
And FWIW I also bring the Subject to Orders Disadvantage squarely into
the 4th Edition realm.
>> 14. Consult fans on the net and elsewhere for ideas which may be
better than
>> mine.
>
>I personally wouldn't mind seeing some nice clear explinations for
>advantages like Invisible Power Effects and Indirect. Telling us the
>advantage and value is nice, but a text example of what that means would
>be nice.
I have a few minor ideas besides what I'm putting into TUSV, such as
allowing +5 points for 2X DNPCs.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 18:55:58 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Storm, Iron Man and the wimpy X-Men
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 02:07 PM 12/12/97 -0500, Eric Burns wrote:
>> Any chance we could change the subject of the thread? ;)
>>
>> Besides, everyone knows Spider-Man could whomp every one of those
losers,
>> anyway! <LOL>
>>
>Yeah, well the Tick could beat the Avengers, the X-Men, AND
>Spiderman!!!(*1)
>
Well, he's had some problems with a single villain in the past. Venus and
Milo took him out pretty easy... is that a Martial Disarm?
>Footnotes Section
>
>*1: with the help of the JLA
>
I actually missed this the first time I read the post. Ah, well. Anyway,
yeah, the JLA are big baddies. But which JLA? The other topic branched
off into *everyone* who had ever been in those two groups, so you drag in
Power Girl, Hal Jordan (would you have him be Parallax?), Barry Allen, etc...
- Jerry
I'm only half joking. ; )
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:15:56 +1000
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Greetings
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At 07:06 AM 12/11/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> Better yet, I was hoping that the timeline would feature stuff that had
>been dealt with in the long-term back-stories of the modules for 4th ed. I
>didn't mind them putting 3rd ed publications into the realm of "been there,
>done that," and enough has been written to put the Day of the Destroyer
>into a fixed point in the past, but I would have preferred a timeline that
>led into the published adventures rather than paved over them.
well, i think it;'s fair fer san angelo to be 'clean slate' territory. .
different company and all. . .
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:32:16 +1000
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: PCs and Timelines
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At 01:22 PM 12/11/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>Uh... I'm not trying to be rude (or stupid), but who *cares* what universe
>the module was set it? Why slavishly follow any sort of timeline put
>down by Hero or GRG? I mean, I know that in any game I run, I won't have
>Viper or Dr. Destroyer or the Champions, so I'm going to have to edit or
>change those elements present in a scenario or module I do get. The same
>goes for a GRG book. If I like the scenario (or the character) but don't
>use certain elements present, then I need to edit that part out.
>
yeah, but then your back to the "why not write the whole ting yourself"
rationale. .
>Nobig deal, right?
>
>>
>> << The more books get published, the
>> further "behind" your campaign becomes, diverging further and further from
>> the universe until you're rewriting every supplement you buy practically
>> from scratch.
>
>But this is my cqampaign, I'm not required to follow any one universe.
>And if one runs even a Hero-based universe, it seems silly to try and
>follow Hero's product blow-for-blow.
>
>> Thank you. You know, just so that people on this list understand, we are
>> long time Champions players, too. We have all experienced the same problems,
>> hurdles and frustrations that you have. One of the things we want to do is to
>> present the Champions fandom with products that they *want*. That doesn't mean
>> that we'll always please everybody at the same time, but we are listening.
>>
>> I hope that this "your heroes are #1" philosophy goes some distance toward
>> assuring you all of that. ;) After all, my philosophy is "I fI wouldn't buy
>> it, I won't publish it." Of course, I would buy some really odd stuff... :D
>
>Well, so do I, but I usually look for cross genre compatability and
>useful source material, not how well something will fit in any
>preconceived timeline.
>
>***************************************************************************
>* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
>* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
>* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
>* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
>* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
>* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
>***************************************************************************
>
>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:36:05 +1000
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Crossover Adventures (Re: Going off on a little tangent)
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At 01:05 PM 12/11/97 -0800, Rook wrote:
>With the execption of #2 which I think can't be touched for legal reasons
>(correct?), all the others
>could be used in crossovers...
>
> Perhaps 'Heroic Adventures #3 could be a series of crossover adventures.
>
>Hey, it's a thought...
>
The crossover genre is fun, especially in pbem format. . . i've also
considered setting up a pbem with a solid campaign bg just so that it can
cross over with *another* pbem with a *different* solid pbem campaign bg.
>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:40:09 +1000
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: San Angelo Origin of Powers (Re: Greetings)
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
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At 01:17 PM 12/11/97 -0800, Rook wrote:
> Perhaps you could provide two or three of the 'opposing' views society has
>created.
>
>Like what is the churches explanation? The New Agers? An opposing scientific view?
>
>A view from the psychological camps? Maybe even some obviously crackpot theories?
>
deffinitly a very good idea.
> Perhaps throw in a few 'counter arguments' and then leave if undeclared as to
>who is right.
>
*shrug*
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 01:43:54 +0000 (GMT)
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> Speaking of which... what are some likes and dislikes you folks have about
> the way past Hero books have been laid out?
>
The only example I can think of is The Ultimate Super Mage. It's
near lack of any art made it very uncomfortable as a gaming book for a
comic book genre.
Another example was Champions: New Millenium. Way too much
New-Coke in there... All the keypages, buzwords, etc... were too much
and only served to confuse.
The rest of it's all pretty much been the same thing, so no real
opinions. I'm rather fond of the layout GURPS uses BTW.
But one of my Favorites for Layout is MektonZ.
> What would you like to see in our books (layout-wise)?
>
> Do the 1/4-page and 1/2-page illos work for you? Would you like to see
> different sizes, too (1/6-page and 1/3-page, for example)?
>
Sure. Whatever looks good on a page.
I happen to like lots of art. But also like lots of good info. A picture
really does say a thousand words.
> Do you care what it looks like at all, as long as it's readable?
>
I think layout can make a big diferent in conveying a 'feeling'
for a document. For instance, look at V&V. The art of Jeff Dee has long
been part of why V&V holds it's cult following.
An even better example is WW's stuff. The art and layout in that
helped bring in a whole new type of gamer. For good or ill. :)
> What about side-bars (assuming they're actually used for something besides
> light grayscale artwork)?
>
Sidebars are nice if used to reference additional side info on
a topic. Lets say your discussing the night life of San Angelo, well in
the sidebar you might present a sample club or two, or some page references
to NPC's who might be seen on the 'night scene'. Etc...
However sidebars used for extra art are of little us save for
setting mood in a document.
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:44:58 +1000
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Greetings
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
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At 05:22 PM 12/11/97 -0500, GoldRushG wrote:
><< Hmm. For somebody who doesn't read much comics, you certainly know the
>right name to drop to get a positive response.:)>>
>
> Well, it's one of the few comics I read with any semblence of frequency. It
>was also one of the inspirations for the author of San Angelo, Kurt's a heck
>of a nice guy, and we're running a SA ad in a future issue of Astro City. What
>does that tell you? ;)
>
> Mark @ GRG
>
well, keep in mind the comments made in the UNDERGROUND game. . .
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 01:46:54 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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>
> But if we're going to go to the expense of reprinting the game, wouldn't you
> rather see us take opportunity to clean up the rest of the typos, throw in
> some new artwork, change the trade dress (i.e., the outside cover design) and
Yes please. That cover needs a facelift.
> layout, maybe? And there are a few MINOR rules changes that Hero wants to
> make.
Like?
> And let's not forget that we can also streamline those cumbersome rules,
Careful there. Every time I hear someone say that I think I'm about
to get hit with a Fuzion add.
> along with including more or better examples...
>
Agreed
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 17:50:23 -0800
From: mcallahan <mcallahan@home.com>
Reply-To: mcallahan@home.com
Subject: Re: How do I buy these abilites??
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>> Oh, really?
>>
>> Lightspeed would put someone around the planet 7 TIMES in 1 second!!
>>
>> I don't remember seeing *anybody* in comics whop could do that.
>
>How about:
>
>The Flash (Barry Allen)
>The Flash (Presumably Wally West, who's supposed to be faster than Barry
>now)
>Blue Superman
>The Ray
>Airwave/Maser
>Pre-Crisis Superman
>The Construct
>
>And those are just off the top of my head. Don't you read any DC?
And over in the marvel universe there are Capain Marvel (the female
one),
Gladiator, and probably others I can't think of now.
The Flash (Wally west) can't quite do FTL, he can almost do the speed of
light, but at the speed of light he crosses over into the 'speed force'
the source of power for all DC speedsters (and the reason DC has so many
more speedsters than Marvel, and they are so much more powerful).
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:29:11 +1000
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Avengers vs. X-Men
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
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At 09:48 PM 12/11/97 +0000, Brian Wong wrote:
>Oh pu-lease...
>
>My favorite comic book character could take your favorite comic book
>character anyday.
>
>And my daddy could beat up your daddy to.
>
>But as for actual comparrision, where the stats published in the Marvel RPG
>official?
>
I didn't realise tsr did stats for peoples dads. .. . .
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 18:29:41 -0800
From: mcallahan <mcallahan@home.com>
Reply-To: mcallahan@home.com
Subject: Re: Greetings
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>> Wolverine matches up well with Capt. A.
>
>If you're looking for match-ups which demonstrate how completely
>outclassed the X-Men are, I agree.:)
>
>And of course, there's always the Quasar problem... he's a full-fledged
>Avenger, has power rivalling the Silver Surfer's, and is immune to mental
>manipulation (if the Overmind couldn't touch him, I don't think the
>X-mentalists have any chance). You could clone each of the X-Men off 5
>times and have them gang-pile him, and I still don't think they'd have
>much chance.
Hey, anybody remember a young lady named Phoenix (Jean or Rachel take
your pick)
I think she could take Quasar. And as I remember, the times Captain
American
and Wolverine have fought in the past they pretty much fought to a
standstill.
And what about Magneto, he's fought the Avengers single handedly, yes he
usually lost, but it took awhile (and after he went good he started
winning,
then surendering at the last moment 'cause the plot called for it).
And if you want to bring in the extended family there's Binary and
Warlock
(from the New Mutants, He can rip stars in half).
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Greetings
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 18:40:04 -0800
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On Thursday, December 11, 1997 2:35 PM, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
<snip>
>How much is "National Sanction" worth? Same as Federal Police
Powers? I
>can't remember what being an Avenger gets you. (Although it gets you
>access to SHIELD files, at least.)
Back when Spiderman tried to join the Avengers, one of the perks was
$50,000 a year. He got turned down by the government backers of the
Avengers for being a security risk. ("Suspicion of burglary, suspicion
of....")
Filksinger
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 18:45:12 -0800
From: mcallahan <mcallahan@home.com>
Reply-To: mcallahan@home.com
Subject: Re: Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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>>The big 3 Avengers (Thor, Iron Man, Captain America) would make a good fight
>>for a dozen X-Folks, barring massed egoists.
>
>There's the crux of the matter. The X-Men have mentalists.
So do the Avengers lets not forget Dr Druid, and the Scarlet Witch (yeah
she's not a mentalist she's an 'other' but she'll make anybodys day go
bad).
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Greetings
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 19:08:02 -0800
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On Thursday, December 11, 1997 8:54 PM, GoldRushG wrote:
<snip>
><< Oh, boy... when anyone with any official ties to Hero Games uses
the
>phrase, "Fifth Edition," it starts heart palpitations (even if
they're just
>talking about the singing group).>>
>
> Fifth Edition,
"Ooooohh! Do it again."
>Fifth Edition, Fifth Edition, Fifth Edition, Fifth Edition!!!
><LOL>
"OOOOOoooohhhh! It makes me all tingly!"
> Call the paramedics! :D
>
No, don't. This is how I want to die.:)
Filksinger
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 22:23:25 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Avengers vs. X-Men
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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>Spider-Man Team-Up (or was it Marvel Team-Up?) #100 (I think). Spider-man
>and the X-men v. Juggernaut and Black Tom (who had part of the Juggernaut
>power. Rogue absorbed the Juggy power from Caine, and went berserk as she
>was taken over by his memories. Granted, that may not be "worked" by your
>definition... <g>
Later on she grabs Juggs without going berserk. Looks like she was prepared
that time..
>Wasn't there a time where she absorbed Colossus, Nightcrawler, and Kitty
>Pryde's powers to beat some big baddy? Was that the Brood?
Nimrod, that 'Super Sentinel from the Future'.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 22:23:29 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: To Steven Brust Readers
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>> > Most of the other effects were standard attacks with strange special
>> >effects. Of course, there was the teleport block (small hardened force wall
>> >transparent to energy and physical?),
>>
>> Change Environment. With TPs so cheap, I wouldn't require a FW to stop them.
>
> Change environment? To suppress teleports? May violate the rule of
>allowing CE to duplicate the effects of other powers.
Otherwise you're talking a MASSIVE force wall. At 5 CP per 1", blocking a
relatively large building is in the hundreds of active points. Besides, an
area of "you can't teleport in or out of here" fits my definition of a
minimal effect on combat. It sure doesn't stop any fighting, or hinder the
act of combat. It just makes access to the power of the Orb for teleporting
purposes impossible. It probably wouldn't work against a witchcraft teleport
(not impossible, considering that Vlad once pulls off a witchcraft X-DM,
UAO, Ranged, Transdimensional)...
>> > the block to stop resurrection and
>> >resurrection itself. (Anybody want to restart the bringing back the dead
>> >debate?)
>>
>> According to the books, the soul stayed in the body for three days. So it
>> was simply a matter of revitalizing the corpse, and that seems to be a
>> Transform, Not if Spine is Severed or Brain Destroyed (-1/2). Morganti
>> weapons destroyed the soul of the target, making resurrection impossible.
>
> Fair enough. But if the soul is still there, perhaps it could be >considered
>that once the person reaches negative body, he does not die but goes into
>statis for three days.. if the brain is stil intact. Then all it may
require >would be some form of magical healing or regeneration to kick start
the body >again. Would make a nice quirk of the world.
Nah. Dead is dead. Aleria had to put Vlad 'back together' once or twice, and
THEN resurrect him. I always got the impression that it was two separate
processes.
Anyone care to write up Spellbreaker? How big a Dispel/Missile Deflection
will you need? :-)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 03:57:20 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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>
> That Perez cover will be a hard one to top though!
>
Well, I'm going to commit heresy in here and say that the
artist behind the second of the C:NM books wasn't all that bad.
I hear he's the same behind the first, so maybe the first was a fluke or
something.
Personally I think it would be cool if they got the artist of
Astro City and the artist of Impulse (DC) to do some art for them.
Of course, if you wanted it to sell out in the millions, get Jim Lee
to do the cover...
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Storm, Iron Man and the wimpy X-Men
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 20:16:30 -0800
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On Friday, December 12, 1997 9:28 AM, GoldRushG wrote:
> Besides, everyone knows Spider-Man could whomp every one of those
losers,
>anyway! <LOL>
YES.
Back in the Secret Wars, Spiderman overheard the X-Men's plan to join
Magneto. He tried to turn them in, and would have succeeded with ease
if it hadn't been for Prof. X making him forget. IIRC, Wolverine
refereed to it as "kicking our butts!"
Filksinger
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 22:25:40 -0600
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net>
Subject: Ha! I KNEW it!! Magic is EVIL!!!
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Okay, not Champs related, but I just couldn't pass it up.
I was just channel surfing, and a shot of a Magic card caught my eye.
It was especially intrigueing because it was on the Christian
Broadcasting Network.
Needless to say, I stopped long enough to see what they had to say. It
was a 'special report' on how the Magic card game is corrupting kids,
teaching them to kill and murder and worship the devil and cast spells
and...
sound familiar??
They of course showed all of the more 'evil' Magic cards, the 'demonic
tutor' and the 'sacrifice' card... they interviewed a couple of mothers
who were suing the local school because the teacher was teaching the
kids in an advanced class how to play Magic. (teaching them to 'cast
spells' and 'summon demons')
Just thought some of you might find it amusing that our fears have been
confirmed. Magic IS evil.
Todd
It does make me wonder though.. did this start up after Wotc became
affiliated with D&D?
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 04:37:32 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> Another pet peeve - re-using artwork, ESPECIALLY within the same book!
> don't show us the same pictures we've seen from another book (or even
> worse yet, on another page within the same book).
>
AMEN!
Too many of these books have the full pose pic on page X, the same pic cropped
to just the upper body on page Y, and nothing but a facial of still yet the
same pic on page Z. *Yawn*. Let's not do that one again please.
> And a request: a full-figure 'posed shot' of the main heroes/villians/npcs. I
> don't know about anyone else, but I like to scan in the pictures, color them and
> print them out. Then, when it comes time for the PCs to encounter them, I can
> SHOW them what the person they're seeing looks like. It's alot easier, and more
> fun for the players than just doing the standard 'this one is a woman with
> blonde hair in a skimpy red costume'.
>
One cool thing Hero/ICE did once was with "Zodiac Conspiracy". On a page
with no stats or anything were pics of the NPC's. This way I could simply
show that page without some keen player noting the *2 Vuln to Ice Cream in the
disads section...
Now, adding a sheet of Cardboard figures in every book, with a figure
for each NPC, solves both that problem and gives me some new 'miniatures'. So
that's even more prefered.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
From: "potroast@theoven" <darkwraith@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Ha! I KNEW it!! Magic is EVIL!!!
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 23:23:50 -0600
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Please tell that this sarcasiam and yes, I've had a co-woker tell me (with
a straight face) that the merfolk card that I was using for a bookmard was
evil and I was going to hell, oh and by the way do you play Star Trek (tm)
the card game, in the same breath, go figure.
----------
> From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net>
> To: champ-l@omg.org
> Subject: Ha! I KNEW it!! Magic is EVIL!!!
> Date: Friday, December 12, 1997 10:25 PM
>
> Okay, not Champs related, but I just couldn't pass it up.
>
> I was just channel surfing, and a shot of a Magic card caught my eye.
> It was especially intrigueing because it was on the Christian
> Broadcasting Network.
>
> Needless to say, I stopped long enough to see what they had to say. It
> was a 'special report' on how the Magic card game is corrupting kids,
> teaching them to kill and murder and worship the devil and cast spells
> and...
>
> sound familiar??
>
> They of course showed all of the more 'evil' Magic cards, the 'demonic
> tutor' and the 'sacrifice' card... they interviewed a couple of mothers
> who were suing the local school because the teacher was teaching the
> kids in an advanced class how to play Magic. (teaching them to 'cast
> spells' and 'summon demons')
>
> Just thought some of you might find it amusing that our fears have been
> confirmed. Magic IS evil.
>
> Todd
>
> It does make me wonder though.. did this start up after Wotc became
> affiliated with D&D?
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 06:02:58 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> The other comment is "No more hard covers" In my group we have 5 copies of
> the BBB all 5 have fallen apart.
>
> Juat a general question to the list, did that happen to everyone?
>
Actually, I bought the first printing of 4th edition the very day it
got into Games of Berkeley. Had to wait on them to unpack it for me...
Bindings still solid as a rock. In 1995 I went out and got a second
copy, this time the deluxe with Heromaker. It too is holding up solid.
Of course, I also have first printing Unearth Arcana (AD&D) holding up
solid until I sold it along with the rest of my AD&D stuff last year.
Only book that ever fell apart on me was a softcover of GURPS 3rd edition
I bought in 1989. I stuck it in a 3ring binder and shelved it next to the other
two copies of third edition GURPS I have (one hardcover, one revised).
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
From: ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 06:09:56 +0000
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> > > 7. Steal a few of the advatages from GURPS, like Richocet.
> >
> > What would that be used for?
> >
> Allows you to bounce an attack off of a surface. For each time you
> buy it, you can bounce one more surface. Or so it reads in GURPS.
> Sort of a variation of 'Indirect'.
>
Isn't this already one of the optional combat maneuvers (like
snapshot and the rest?)
Guy
----------------------------------
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com)
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf
and the PANGAEA Project!
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 01:21:00 EST
Subject: Re: Crossover Adventures
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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To: champ-l@omg.org
<< Could also include original Champions Universe in there, either as an
alternate to the New Champions Universe or as option as a third crossover
universe?>>
I think that a book of crossover adventure with *several* universes would be
neat. CU, NMU, and a few others I could think of would be cool. Maybe that' an
idea -- a book of several such adventures, with conversions for each
applicable gaming system. I don't see that the licensing would be too
difficult (given our past success with licensing).
So let me ask you, what universes would *you* folks like to see in such a
product? Mind you, this would be a one-time product, not an ongoing series...
Mark @ GRG
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 22:43:08 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: To Steven Brust Readers
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
-- John and Ron Prins wrote:
>
> >-- It may not be as bad as you think. The teleports were never used with-in
> >combat as htus could be considered as non combat teleports only.
>
> Teleports were most certainly used in combat! Never point-to-point within a
> melee, but certainly for escape and for arrival in an ongoing melee. One
> specific example was the jhereg that swiped the Jhereg treasury and 'hid'
> out at Morrowlan's castle. Once he has stabbed Aleria with the Morganti
> dagger, he 'ported out RIGHT AWAY. No way was that a noncombat teleport, as
> Vlad had to rush up and stand next to him to 'come along'. Most people (even
> dragenarians) suffered a 'recovery' period in which they had to re-orient
> themselves, though, after a teleport (probably an extra phase), which is why
> few people 'dropped' into a melee. And teleporting took concentration, which
> made it hard to do when fighting for your life.
That was what I was trying to say. What I meant by not with-in combat was
that nobody uses teleport to bounce around the room. Certainly it is used IN combat
to get away. I don't know so much about it requireing concentration. Perhaps for
the more inexperienced sorcerers out there.
>
> > Most of the other effects were standard attacks with strange special
> >effects. Of course, there was the teleport block (small hardened force wall
> >transparent to energy and physical?),
>
> Change Environment. With TPs so cheap, I wouldn't require a FW to stop them.
Change environment? To suppress teleports? May violate the rule of
allowing CE to duplicate the effects of other powers.
>
> > the block to stop resurrection and
> >resurrection itself. (Anybody want to restart the bringing back the dead
> >debate?)
>
> According to the books, the soul stayed in the body for three days. So it
> was simply a matter of revitalizing the corpse, and that seems to be a
> Transform, Not if Spine is Severed or Brain Destroyed (-1/2). Morganti
> weapons destroyed the soul of the target, making resurrection impossible.
Fair enough. But if the soul is still there, perhaps it could be considered
that once the person reaches negative body, he does not die but goes into statis for
three days.. if the brain is stil intact. Then all it may require would be some
form of magical healing or regeneration to kick start the body again. Would make a
nice quirk of the world.
<<rest of it snipped>>
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 16:50:30 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Crossover Adventures
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 01:21 AM 12/13/97 -0500, GoldRushG wrote:
><< Could also include original Champions Universe in there, either as an
>alternate to the New Champions Universe or as option as a third crossover
>universe?>>
>
> I think that a book of crossover adventure with *several* universes would be
>neat. CU, NMU, and a few others I could think of would be cool. Maybe that' an
>idea -- a book of several such adventures, with conversions for each
>applicable gaming system. I don't see that the licensing would be too
>difficult (given our past success with licensing).
>
> So let me ask you, what universes would *you* folks like to see in such a
>product? Mind you, this would be a one-time product, not an ongoing series...
>
> Mark @ GRG
>
I'd say the new millenium stuff, and 4th edition. It'd make a good
contrast between them, ESPECIALLY to dispel all there '4 color heros
are wimps' drivel wich C:tnM type genres fall into. ..
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 22:51:19 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: To Steven Brust Readers
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
TokyoMark wrote:
> I don't find anything that indicates Dragaerans were ill or disoriented by
> teleporting.
No, no, no. Not Dragaerans. Easterners. You know, humans. Vlad always
complained that teleports made him sick. Dragaerans didn't have the problem.
> Just about everyone was at least minorly psionic. Aliera comments Easterns
> were given psionic abilities almost the equal of Dragaerans. It might be
> equal, Aliera might be biased;)
Easterners were the control of the grand experiment. But to make things
interesting (and to completely stuff the requirements of a control) they were
given psionics which was accessed by the use of "witchcraft". Dragaerans tended
to consider anything Eastern as very much second rate and so pretty much ignored
the talent to such an extent that they didn't even bother having set defences
against it. With a couple of notable exceptions.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 22:57:31 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: To Steven Brust Readers
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
John and Ron Prins wrote:
<<snipped>>
> >He stabbed Aliera, realized something was wrong. When Daymar tried to mind
> >probe him, he ordered the body guard who was now Vlad to teleport them out.
> > Vlad acted like he froze up, then Mellar ordered the other bodyguard to
> >teleport them out. No one was attacking during this, so they were not
> >fighting. I agree about the concentration. Vlad during the later fight
> >comments Mellar would need 3-4 seconds to concentrate and tport out and he
> >was not going to give him the time.
>
> Right. So it's not exactly a 'non-combat' power. All that it really looks
> like it needs is an 'extra phase' with 'concentration'. Not something you
> can do during a sword fight, but stun your current opponant and you probably
> can leave before he recovers.
Which is exactly what is required for a non-combat teleport. A single
phase to prepare and then you get ALL of your non-combat multiples. Hence the
cross country teleports can be used to get you out of there.
Oh, Mark. Teleport could not be used against an unwilling target. So
teleport useable against others is not the right modifier. By others has to be
the way to go with something extra to get the floating location to the
passenger.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 23:53:51 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Ha! I KNEW it!! Magic is EVIL!!!
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
potroast@theoven wrote:
>
> Please tell that this sarcasiam and yes, I've had a co-woker tell me (with
> a straight face) that the merfolk card that I was using for a bookmard was
> evil and I was going to hell,<....snip>
(Referring to Mr. Hanson's)
> >I was just channel surfing, and a shot of a Magic card caught my eye.
> > It was especially intrigueing because it was on the Christian
> > Broadcasting Network.
> >
> > Needless to say, I stopped long enough to see what they had to say. It
> > was a 'special report' on how the Magic card game is corrupting kids,
> > teaching them to kill and murder and worship the devil and cast spells
> > and...
<etc....)
Okay, now we ALL know that Magic (the Card Game) is Evil, and we
don't need the folks on the God Channel to tell us that. I have
actually heard (sorry, I can't recall exactly where) similar claims by
similar people about Champions specifically as well!
I used to think that These People would cull the rare, isolated freak
events from the genre(s) to hold up for examples of Evil for the hordes,
but one day I heard something that showed me that They don't even put
that much effort into it:
In a diatribe against AD&D (I know the easier of the RPG targets, but
bear with me), a lady on a Radio God Channel related a tale of two boys
turned to Satan! Desinsitized to things demonic (apparently), in one
game, one of the boys invoked the power of Satan to _win_the_game_.
Well, the next time they played, the OTHER boy invoked the dark power,
so HE could _win_the_game_ instead. Then there was further stuff and a
slippery slope and yadda yadda yadda, anyway....
It immediately occored to me that - with only as much detail as I
have presented here, the anecdote resembled NO D&D GAME I HAD EVER
SEEN! Even in a solo adventure, I've never known a game to result in
one of the participants 'winning' over the other.
It then occured to me that These People must not even need to believe
their own crap, since They don't even have anecdoted grounded in
legitimate parameters.
Besides, every time *I* invoke the Dark Power, it has nothing to do
with RPG's whatever! That would be pointless. >:-)>
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 02:18:59 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
Subject: Re: Crossover Adventures
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> So let me ask you, what universes would *you* folks like to see in such a
>product? Mind you, this would be a one-time product, not an ongoing series...
The obvious would be Marvel, DC, Wildstorm, Spawn, and Hero 4th...
The realistic would be, Hero 4th, CTNM, San Angelo, Gurps IST, and of course
The Rising Force Universe...
Michael
Rising Force Publications
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 13 Dec 97 00:23:04 -0800
Subject: Link: Disadvantage or Ad
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
u >
u > The link is a 1/2 disadvantage, but is it really?
u >
u > Let's say I want to have a Hero who wields twin UZIs. Each has a
u > Autofire. Normally he would have one and only fire 5 shots, if I put a
u > disadvantage to one of the guns and link it to the main gun. We now
u > attack that can do TWO 5-shot autofires!! At a reduced point cost on
u > second power to boot!!! Does anyone see a problem with this.
In this specific case, no. For one thing, what you really have is
a 5 shot autofire that does damage twice per hit... and the cost
is comparable to Reduced Penetration.
u > Another example is I could have a 12d6 photon blast, and link a 3d6
u > flash
u > to it as well. Now we have a 12d6 EB along with a 3d6 flash (even
u > though it
u > does require another hit roll) that can be done all in one phase.
Actually they use the same attack roll...
And, yes, that seems odd unless you assume that you can bundle
attacks into a single attack roll by default.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 13 Dec 97 00:40:06 -0800
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage o
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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To: champ-l@omg.org
t > > does Linked not mention this "Linkable" advantage? If "Linkable" is
t > not
t > > the default condition for powers, why has the "Linkable" advantage
t > never
t > > been published? This to me is something critical enough that it
t > would not
t > > have been left out by accident after *three* revisions of the 4th
t > edition.
t >
t >
t > That's easy. Because there is no such thing as "Linkable".
Oooh, nice Tautology (I mispelled that didn't I, here I was trying
to sound smug...)
t > Powers that are linked have become a new Metapower. They aren't
t > seperate.
t > Having two powers be seperate and together isn't allowed at all, even
t > with
t > any type of advantage. Buy them all seperately, in a MP if you wish.
t > -Tim Gilberg
What's so horrifying about having two powers that can be used
independently or gang-fired?
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 13 Dec 97 01:04:08 -0800
Subject: Re: Link degression
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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To: champ-l@omg.org
i > On the phrase "CON Stunned"
i >
i > How many people just want to reach across the table and slap the
i > person with a wet sea bass when they say that?
i >
i > -Mark Lemming
i > ---
Some people just don't know whether you're talking about
stunned or unconscious unless you use that term. If
it helps everybody at the table understand what's
happening, fine.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 04:05:00 EST
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA/ Desol Super Dodge
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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Hmm.. a character that uses Desolidification, with Totally Invisible power
effects... with the special effect of "awesome Zen-like martial arts ability
to avoid blows" or some such (a la Remo Williams, or legendary ninja
abilities, etc). Too wild? Too GROSS?
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 04:05:05 EST
Subject: Re: Greetings
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
<< Speaking personally, I didn't really like the look of the two Heroic
Adventures products. There were some interesting scenarios and characters,
but it seemed to suffer a lack of polish. >>
I agree with you, absolutely. Those were the first 2 books we ever
published. We've learned a lot since those books. San Angelo: City of Heroes
will be a much better presentation.
<< San Angelo, howeever, I saw a playtest version of at GenCon. Very
impressive looking. I trust the packaging will be as strong. >>
Thank you. All we really did for that was drop the MS Word document into a
two column template in PageMaker and print it out. ;)
Speaking of which... what are some likes and dislikes you folks have about
the way past Hero books have been laid out?
What would you like to see in our books (layout-wise)?
Do the 1/4-page and 1/2-page illos work for you? Would you like to see
different sizes, too (1/6-page and 1/3-page, for example)?
Do you care what it looks like at all, as long as it's readable?
What about side-bars (assuming they're actually used for something besides
light grayscale artwork)?
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 04:05:08 EST
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< I agree completely. I think a lot of people believe that a '5th Edition'
will fix their *particular* complaints with the rules. You don't need a
'5th Edition' to do that, just say "in my game, this is how its going to be."
>>
But if we're going to go to the expense of reprinting the game, wouldn't you
rather see us take opportunity to clean up the rest of the typos, throw in
some new artwork, change the trade dress (i.e., the outside cover design) and
layout, maybe? And there are a few MINOR rules changes that Hero wants to
make. And let's not forget that we can also streamline those cumbersome rules,
along with including more or better examples...
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 04:05:10 EST
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< I myself wouldn't really want to see a Champions 5th Edition if it makes
4th
edition characters and rules a thing of the past. >>
Not at all. In fact, I guess it could be considered "Champions 4th Ed.
Revised" in a way. But 4th Ed. characters would be just fine. Don't worry.
We're not going to pull a fast one on anyone and force you all to totally
rewrite your characters. That would be marketing suicide, IMO.
<< Truthfully, I'd like to see more made for the game, then the game remade
again and again. >>
Well, like I said before, we have to reprint the book anyway. Why not update
it and dress it up a bit? Give it a "facelift" as you say. I think we can help
bring in new players if the game looks new; new cover, new art, new
packaging... and streamlined rules, less typos, etc. ;) But it will still be
the Hero System we all love, with a few MINOR rules changes (like Hand
Attacks...).
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 04:05:17 EST
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Crossover Adventures
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< WildStorm, Astro City, DC >>
I will certainly keep these in mind. And I don't want to sound like I'm
shooting down your ideas at all, but I just want to shed some light on these,
because we *have* looked into some of them already. ;)
The Astro City license is a big "No way" from Mr. Busiek himself. As a
creative type, he doesn't want to see his characters "limited" by arbitrary
stats and characteristics, or "14d6 EB, Indirect" or whatever. That's straight
from the man himself. (Although he *is* going to plug San Angelo: City of
Heroes in an upcoming letters column <G>).
As for the DC license... that's a *mighty* expensive license, and out of our
reach for the moment. I just wanted to tell you folks that right now before we
start getting too many "Please, please, please get the DC license or you guys
will suck!" messages. <LOL> I would *love* to see "DC Champions," but it just
isn't going to happen any time soon.
However, as far as a "wish list," it's on mine, too.
Mark @ GRG
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 13 Dec 97 01:07:10 -0800
Subject: Re: Greetings (Cardboard
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
p >
p > > I have a question for the masses, though. Would anyone like to see
p > more
p > >"Cardboard Heroes" type of products? I don't think it would be too
p > difficult
p > >to do, even as a one sheet insert in a book or as a one sheet
p > tear-out.
p > >Thoughts?
Absolutely. Cardboard Heros where one of the best things
ever produced for Champions... Never mind that Steve Jackson
produced them....
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 13 Dec 97 01:17:12 -0800
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage o
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
t > Let's turn that one around, Rat, as you know there is no statement
t > with that *always*. Where in the BBB does it say that one can use EB
t > *at
t > all* without an Attack Roll.
t >
t >
t > -Tim Gilberg
t > ---
Not that it's relevant, but you don't need an attack roll
to use an EB to break out of an Entangle....
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Eric Pawtowski <epawtows@cray-ymp.acm.stuorg.vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 04:22:10 -0500 (EST)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Small change that I've always liked: allowing Acrobatics to be used
as complementary to Breakfall. Makes Acrobatics much more useful.
Eric
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 03:29:12 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Ha! I KNEW it!! Magic is EVIL!!!
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 10:25 PM 12/12/97 -0600, Todd Hanson wrote:
>I was just channel surfing, and a shot of a Magic card caught my eye.
>It was especially intrigueing because it was on the Christian
>Broadcasting Network.
>
>Needless to say, I stopped long enough to see what they had to say. It
>was a 'special report' on how the Magic card game is corrupting kids,
>teaching them to kill and murder and worship the devil and cast spells
>and...
What I want to know is ... WotC doesn't seem too scared of courts -- Peter
Adkisson (sp?) has made it clear, for example, that he intends to pursue the
Garfield patent to the pain. So how about a libel suit? This seems
TERRIBLY clear-cut.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good |
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 03:29:14 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 05:24 AM 12/13/97 -0600, Michael Nunn wrote:
>The other comment is "No more hard covers" In my group we have 5 copies of
>the BBB all 5 have fallen apart.
>
>Juat a general question to the list, did that happen to everyone?
My BBB has pretty much disintegrated. My CD is holding up in mint
condition; of course, maybe it's going to fall to pieces all at once instead
of page by page like my BBB did.
I'd like to know how they put together GURPS books myself. The only one I
have that's fallen apart is the original copy of -GURPS Supers- I bought,
and deep inside I'd like to believe it committed seppuku.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good |
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 03:29:16 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Ha! I KNEW it!! Magic is EVIL!!!]
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 01:53 PM 12/13/97 -0500, Kevin J. McClain wrote:
> I would like to submit a fundamental Christian point of view in case any
> of you great minds are interested.
>
> First of all, don't confuse people on so called Christian Radio/Television
> with real Christians. The only church ordained by God is a local New
> Testament Church (denomination is irrelevant as long as they believe all
> the doctrines of the Bible.) TV and Radio Ministries tend to take away
> from local churches and have a philosophy of monetary gain. They also are
> used to launch an occasional political career.
>
> Secondly, any Bible believing Christian will tell you that no card game,
> nor any role playing game will send a person to Hell.
I wouldn't say this. After all, what scares me the most about Pat Robertson
is that I really think he DOES believe the **** he says, and most of that
**** is Biblical in nature (though heavily out of context).
> The only sin that sends you to Hell is unbelief. If you don't believe
> that Jesus died for your sins then there is no hope for you.
Frankly, this is just as offensive a belief as claiming that RPGs and card
games are the work of the devil. I cannot reconcile any belief system that
says:
a) There is a benevolent supreme intelligence
b) He/she/it will damn a Bushman or Aborigine or Tibetan or (you
get the idea) who has led a benevolent existence on the
technicality that they didn't HAVE a "local New Testament Church".
The two concepts just aren't consistent. If salvation/damnation (assuming
they exist) is not dependent on the actual composition of one's moral fiber
but merely some arbitrary pledge of allegiance, I'd say there's no hope for GOD.
> Thirdly, the Bible teaches that there are only two forces at work here
> on Earth, God and Satan.
No, Biblical *scholars* teach this. The Bible itself takes contradictary
stances, on account that it is a compilation of several different authors
who didn't confer with each other (sorta like the DC Universe).
> You see how ridiculous it can become. The Christian life is supposed to
> be balanced. You cannot remove yourself from the world physically but you
> are supposed to spiritually. It helps to limit your exposure to non-Godly
> things. If you consider yourself a Christian, and you play games, have
> fun. But don't allow Magic or Champions or anything else become your God.
> Have you ever missed church to play a game?
Ah, here we have the whole quandary: if God is everywhere (at least,
his/her/its awareness is everywhere, on account of being omniscient), then
isn't "church" wherever and however I choose to worship him? Maybe it's
okay if we just say a grace before breaking out the decks. :]
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good |
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 13 Dec 97 01:41:14 -0800
Subject: Velocity and Damage
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
r >
r > Let's consider a car with a mass of 1,600 kg racing at 25" per segment
r > (50
r > meters per second, or 180 kph). That's 0.5 * (1,600) * (50)^2 = 2
r > megajoules, also about 16d6 damage energy. Of course, the AT round,
r > being
r > much smaller, will strike with a much greater pressure, and pressure
r > is
r > probably the most accurate way to measure damage energy, though more
r > complex. An AT gun is a more effective way to take out an armored
r > vehicle
r > than ramming it with a Buick.
Presumably meaning that it would do 5d+1 K or ~3d+1 AP Killing,
instead of the Buick's 16d normal... and a really flimsy mass
at similar speeds might do 16d N, with reduced penetration...
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 13 Dec 97 02:15:16 -0800
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage o
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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To: champ-l@omg.org
t > Ah, but as I and (especially) Vox have been pointing out, you
t > don't just take a 0-phase action. You take that action to activate
t > but
t > must also make an attack roll to use an attack power. That does end
t > your
t > action, and thus you are unable to activate another power.
t > -Tim Gilberg
Ahhh.... I (finally) see what you're saying...
You're assuming that 0 phase actions occur sequentially...
that there is a difference, for instance between, "I
activate my Force Field and put my levels to DCV" and
"I put my Levels to DCV and activate my Force Field"
or perhaps, more rellevantly, I could shift my levels
to OCV, and then activate an attack power (and make
the obligatory attack action), but if I activated
the attack power 'first' I would be obliged to attack
before I could shift my levels to OCV....
Thus, you can't ever activate two attack powers in
the same phase, because the 'first' one activated
obliges you to make the attack roll or waste the
power (shoot yourself in the foot, I guess).
Of course, if you assume that all zero phase
actions happen concurrently (and there's
absolutely no difference in the time it takes
to do several things that take no time all
at once, and the same number of things that
take no time one after the other), then a character
could activate more than one attack power
at the same time, they'd all go off at the
exact precise-to-the-nanosecond Instant, and
could be targeted with a single attack roll.
Now is that over-analysis or what? :)
On a related note, it seems that one set is
argueing that you can buy two powers (no
limitations) and use them sepparately or
together, and the other set is saying that
you can only use one or the other, unless
you take linked, in which case you *must* use
both, and that there's no middle ground.
Well, here's the middle ground:
50 Multipower (no adds or lims)
5 u 10d EB
4 u 3d RKA
5 u 10d EB
30 3d RKA linked to the 2nd EB
--
94 pts.
You can fire either a 10d EB, or a 3d RKA or
a combined 10d EB & 3d RKA. Linked remains
sacrosanct, and I believe it's a legal construct.
The only argument I can think of against it
is that Linked 'wouldn't be a limitation'
because you can effectively use the component
powers by themselves. Well, if it's not
a limitation what is it? -0? If so, haven't
we just created a 'linkable' advantage?
And of course, I'm sure you've noticed that
the cost is virtually identical to just
buying
50 10d EB
45 3d RKA
--
95
So, what's the point of the Great Linked
Debate again?
-Opal
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 05:14:38 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> But if we're going to go to the expense of reprinting the game, wouldn't you
>rather see us take opportunity to clean up the rest of the typos, throw in
>some new artwork, change the trade dress (i.e., the outside cover design) and
>layout, maybe? And there are a few MINOR rules changes that Hero wants to
>make. And let's not forget that we can also streamline those cumbersome rules,
>along with including more or better examples...
This is perfect. If this is what you have in mind for a 5th edition that is
exactly what you should do! Giving the game a "face lift" with out touching
the core is what it needs. I look at the diffrence between 3rd and 4th, and
feel that was about right.
That Perez cover will be a hard one to top though!
Michael
Rising Force Publications
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 05:24:12 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
Subject: Re: Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> Speaking of which... what are some likes and dislikes you folks have about
>the way past Hero books have been laid out?
I have a huge complaint about the lay out of several Hero products, I hate
that HUGE white bar down the side of the page. I don't remember right off
the top of my head which books had it but, I bet they could have saved 100
pages if they had used that space.
The other comment is "No more hard covers" In my group we have 5 copies of
the BBB all 5 have fallen apart.
Juat a general question to the list, did that happen to everyone?
Michael
Rising Force Publications
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 05:47:51 -0600
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net>
Subject: Re: Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
GoldRushG wrote:
> Do the 1/4-page and 1/2-page illos work for you? Would you like to see
> different sizes, too (1/6-page and 1/3-page, for example)?
>
Actually, I don't so much care about the SIZE of the illustrations, as much as I
do the QUALITY of them. I may be in the minority here, but the internal artwork
has a big impact on how I feel about a book. Nothing is a bigger turn off for
me than artwork that looks like it was drawn by a 3rd grader who flunked art
class.
Another pet peeve - re-using artwork, ESPECIALLY within the same book! If you
aren't going to put original art work in the book, then don't bother. Make the
book a page or so shorter, or include another page of 'useful' information, but
don't show us the same pictures we've seen from another book (or even worse yet,
on another page within the same book).
And a request: a full-figure 'posed shot' of the main heroes/villians/npcs. I
don't know about anyone else, but I like to scan in the pictures, color them and
print them out. Then, when it comes time for the PCs to encounter them, I can
SHOW them what the person they're seeing looks like. It's alot easier, and more
fun for the players than just doing the standard 'this one is a woman with
blonde hair in a skimpy red costume'.
Todd
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 05:49:59 -0600
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
GoldRushG wrote:
But if we're going to go to the expense of reprinting the game, wouldn't you
> rather see us take opportunity to clean up the rest of the typos, throw in
> some new artwork, change the trade dress (i.e., the outside cover design) and
> layout, maybe? And there are a few MINOR rules changes that Hero wants to
> make. And let's not forget that we can also streamline those cumbersome rules,
> along with including more or better examples...
There is the key word for me: EXAMPLES. You could do alot to clarify certain
things (and end alot of arguements) if the book were to include some examples of
the trickier powers being used correctly (and possibly a 'wrong way' example as
well).
Todd
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 97 12:47:07
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: regarding champion adventures breaking up the monotony
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Tue, 09 Dec 1997 07:48:57 -0800, Nicole Webb wrote:
>Tokyo Mark wrote:
>> I've kept considering doing a villain game sometime,
>> but I doubt my group would be into it. Even when I run gray morality
>> games right now, they play heros.:)
>>
>
> If you want to run a villian game with your group, you need only
>guidethem toward it. Players are pliable, and as long as you don't run
>a game they have no interest in, at all, you shuld be able to get them
>where you want them.
> One way to add a nefarious eliment to our elete role-model
>squadron,is to warp one character and let him loose. Secretly set up a
>game time with Captian Wonderful, away from the rest of the team,
>Makeing sure to tell Captian Wonderful not to dicuss the session with
>Mr. Magnificance, or Altruisim Girl. When your chipper little victom
>arives, smile your best smile, then drag him through moral greyness, and
>mind games. Do not relent until the poor captian is quite insain, then
>proceed with your campain.
> Alternitively, if you want the whole group to wear black hats,
>be a little insidious about character creation. Tell your players not
>to share information about their characters outside the game session,
>then sit down with each player before they write up characters, and give
>them some guidance. During your individual guidance session, encorage
>secrets and deception, and tell everybody that sombody is working
>against the group. Also suggest, to each player that the group may be
>working against them.
> The distrust this will cause will go a long way toward creating a
>villianous flavor. Spice this up with some important questions about
>modivation, and means of operation, and you ought to be able to squeeze
>villians out of the most heroic players.
Don't do this unless you like playing Paranoia.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 05:51:11 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 04:05 AM 12/13/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< I myself wouldn't really want to see a Champions 5th Edition if it makes
>4th
>edition characters and rules a thing of the past. >>
>
> Not at all. In fact, I guess it could be considered "Champions 4th Ed.
>Revised" in a way. But 4th Ed. characters would be just fine. Don't worry.
>We're not going to pull a fast one on anyone and force you all to totally
>rewrite your characters. That would be marketing suicide, IMO.
>
><< Truthfully, I'd like to see more made for the game, then the game remade
>again and again. >>
>
> Well, like I said before, we have to reprint the book anyway. Why not
update
>it and dress it up a bit? Give it a "facelift" as you say. I think we can
help
>bring in new players if the game looks new; new cover, new art, new
>packaging... and streamlined rules, less typos, etc. ;) But it will still be
>the Hero System we all love, with a few MINOR rules changes (like Hand
>Attacks...).
Opal has a fix for Hand Attack which most of the folks on the list like.
(I know Bill and I both do, but he and I tend to agree on things anyway.)
Hey Opal! Do you mind posting that again, for Mark? :-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 05:54:36 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 04:05 AM 12/13/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< I agree completely. I think a lot of people believe that a '5th Edition'
>will fix their *particular* complaints with the rules. You don't need a
>'5th Edition' to do that, just say "in my game, this is how its going to be."
>>>
>
> But if we're going to go to the expense of reprinting the game, wouldn't
you
>rather see us take opportunity to clean up the rest of the typos, throw in
>some new artwork, change the trade dress (i.e., the outside cover design) and
>layout, maybe? And there are a few MINOR rules changes that Hero wants to
>make. And let's not forget that we can also streamline those cumbersome
rules,
>along with including more or better examples...
Not to mention stick in at least some of the well-received rules from
Hero System Almanacs, Ultimate books, and other books. Lightning Reflexes,
the new variations on Area Effect, the Restrainable Limitation, and
Conditional Distinctive Features come right to mind for this.
---
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 06:18:35 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 04:05 AM 12/13/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< Speaking personally, I didn't really like the look of the two Heroic
>Adventures products. There were some interesting scenarios and characters,
>but it seemed to suffer a lack of polish. >>
>
> I agree with you, absolutely. Those were the first 2 books we ever
>published. We've learned a lot since those books. San Angelo: City of Heroes
>will be a much better presentation.
Proofread carefully. For example, though a great character in general
(with the potential of becoming one of my favorites), Yo-Yo (in HA1) had no
Disadvantages listed on his sheet in spite of several possibilities being
suggested in his description.
><< San Angelo, howeever, I saw a playtest version of at GenCon. Very
>impressive looking. I trust the packaging will be as strong. >>
>
> Thank you. All we really did for that was drop the MS Word document into a
>two column template in PageMaker and print it out. ;)
>
> Speaking of which... what are some likes and dislikes you folks have about
>the way past Hero books have been laid out?
>
> What would you like to see in our books (layout-wise)?
>
> Do the 1/4-page and 1/2-page illos work for you? Would you like to see
>different sizes, too (1/6-page and 1/3-page, for example)?
>
> Do you care what it looks like at all, as long as it's readable?
>
> What about side-bars (assuming they're actually used for something besides
>light grayscale artwork)?
Do keep the general formatting that Hero had adopted just before the
switch-over (and, I gather, are keeping on Hero Plus).
Do vary the size of the illos -- 1/3, 1/6, 3/8, etc. Even an occasional
full page wouldn't be bad, if there's a reason for taking up that much
(such as an extensive map, or a player handout).
Sidebars are fine. I arguably overuse them in TUSV (and Bruce will
probably want to cut at least a couple).
When featuring a character illustration, have the artist draw something
that the GM can hold up and show the players, telling them, "This is the
person you see." I could point out several illos in Hero publications (two
of the Flashmen, one of the Destruction Company, and the Golden Age
character Veltro come right to mind) where doing that would reveal secrets
or something else that shouldn't be shown.
See that every two-page spread has at least one illustration, unless
there's at least a quarter-page worth table or chart -- and often even
then. It's much easier on the eyes.
Also remember to consider clarity and completeness over size. I'd
rather spend $20 on a 200-page book that has everything I need to run a
particular organization than $12 on a 96-page book that is spotty and
confusing.
---
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 06:24:24 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 05:24 AM 12/13/97 -0600, Michael Nunn wrote:
>> Speaking of which... what are some likes and dislikes you folks have about
>>the way past Hero books have been laid out?
>
>I have a huge complaint about the lay out of several Hero products, I hate
>that HUGE white bar down the side of the page. I don't remember right off
>the top of my head which books had it but, I bet they could have saved 100
>pages if they had used that space.
I disagree there, but provisionally. That white bar is intended to be a
space for sidebars. (It also helps the eye absorb the page. Trust me; I
have some training in these things. I ran a publication myself for nine
years, and while a job opportunity bulletin is not the same thing as a game
supplement, a lot of the same principles still hold.)
The wide outer margin works as long as sidebars are used enough to make
it worth the space, but not enough to make it fill up (like SJG does).
>The other comment is "No more hard covers" In my group we have 5 copies of
>the BBB all 5 have fallen apart.
>
>Juat a general question to the list, did that happen to everyone?
It did to me. I had to ditch my hardcover and get a softcover edition.
---
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 06:33:55 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Extra Time
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 06:50 PM 12/12/97 -0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>>> Normally, an EB (or any attack power) takes a 1/2 phase action to
>>> use. The full phase extra time amount means it takes a whole phase to
>>> use.
>>
>>I see no support for this in the rules. If a Power has "Extra Time - 1
>>Phase", it means just that... it takes an _extra_ phase.
>>
>I think *my* confusion may have stemmed from "Extra Time - *Full* Phase"
>which is how it is actually stated (emphasis mine). This led *me* (and
>possibly Mr. Gilberg) to believe that this simply extended the time of
>activation, not that it was an additive. In the text description of the
>Limitation, it mentions a power that takes a month (not a
>month-and-a-phase) to activate.
It also seems to me that all of the published characters with Extra Time
attacks have them saying "Full Phase" rather than "Extra Phase."
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Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 09:34:03 -0500 (EST)
From: dq831@freenet.carleton.ca (Jamie Rosen)
Subject: Re: Crossover Adventures
Reply-To: dq831@freenet.carleton.ca
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> I think that a book of crossover adventure with *several* universes would be
>neat. CU, NMU, and a few others I could think of would be cool. Maybe that' an
>idea -- a book of several such adventures, with conversions for each
>applicable gaming system. I don't see that the licensing would be too
>difficult (given our past success with licensing).
>
> So let me ask you, what universes would *you* folks like to see in such a
>product? Mind you, this would be a one-time product, not an ongoing series...
Heck, let's go crazy here:
Marvel (pref. the MU as it was a few years back, not now)
DC
Amalgam?
SA
Champs.
Maybe Dark Horse' Comics Greatest World
Marvel's New Universe (*I* liked it)
I'm sure there are more (more likely) ones than the ones I put on the
list, but that's all I can think of.
--
Jamie Rosen - author, bad seed, and layabout on rec.arts.comics.creative
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mistake is just experience in the present tense.
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 09:37:47 -0500 (EST)
From: dq831@freenet.carleton.ca (Jamie Rosen)
Subject: Re: Crossover Adventures
Reply-To: dq831@freenet.carleton.ca
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>
>> So let me ask you, what universes would *you* folks like to see in such a
>> product? Mind you, this would be a one-time product, not an ongoing series...
>>
> WildStorm
> Astro City
I wouldn't want Astro City because Kurt Busiek has made it clear from the
start that he will *not* cross over with any other universes, and I
personally agree with him.
Now, a worldbook, on the other hand...
--
Jamie Rosen - author, bad seed, and layabout on rec.arts.comics.creative
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mistake is just experience in the present tense.
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 09:45:09 -0500 (EST)
From: dq831@freenet.carleton.ca (Jamie Rosen)
Subject: Re: Greetings
Reply-To: dq831@freenet.carleton.ca
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
>
> Speaking of which... what are some likes and dislikes you folks have about
>the way past Hero books have been laid out?
_Likes_
umm...gimme a second.
Oh, I liked the more recent books they put out (the ones with the grey
border covers). I thought the incorporation of regular text and character
sheets in Pyramid... and Watchers... was good, and I liked the layout for
Enemies for Hire.
_Dislikes_
No @#@$! index
The character sheets changed layout from book to book.
Missing stats (ie Chromedome's STR in European Enemies)
> What would you like to see in our books (layout-wise)?
An index!
> Do the 1/4-page and 1/2-page illos work for you? Would you like to see
>different sizes, too (1/6-page and 1/3-page, for example)?
I think the content of the illo is more important than its size (but hey,
that might change if you make them really screwy sizes)
> Do you care what it looks like at all, as long as it's readable?
Readibility is always nice :)
> What about side-bars (assuming they're actually used for something besides
>light grayscale artwork)?
Side-bars a la GURPS books are good.
--
Jamie Rosen - author, bad seed, and layabout on rec.arts.comics.creative
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mistake is just experience in the present tense.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 06:51:08 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Crossover Adventures
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 01:21 AM 12/13/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< Could also include original Champions Universe in there, either as an
>alternate to the New Champions Universe or as option as a third crossover
>universe?>>
>
> I think that a book of crossover adventure with *several* universes
would be
>neat. CU, NMU, and a few others I could think of would be cool. Maybe
that' an
>idea -- a book of several such adventures, with conversions for each
>applicable gaming system. I don't see that the licensing would be too
>difficult (given our past success with licensing).
>
> So let me ask you, what universes would *you* folks like to see in such a
>product? Mind you, this would be a one-time product, not an ongoing series...
Well, for myself, I'd like to see Palladium's universe for Heroes
Unlimited (using characters from that book, Villains Unlimited, Aliens
Unlimited, and Ninjas & Superspies as the basis).
Crossing over with the GURPS Supers world would be a good thing too, as
would the published V&V universe.
DC and Marvel Universes are probably too much to ask for, of course.
And Michael Nunn already suggested a tie-in with the Rising Force
Universe. I already have a great interdimensional adventure written up
with that one and a generic "other" universe, with options for both
Original Champions and Strike Force Universes; I could always throw in more
options, or make things more specific.
Naturally, conversion notes to/from the other systems would be a must,
as well as Hero (and possibly Fuzion) stats for the characters involved.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:10:49 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Atmospheric FTL
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Fri, 12 Dec 1997, bobby farris wrote:
> I personnally think that they said FTL can not be used in the
> atmosphere because anyone who us going that fast will realistically
> disappear from one point and instantaneously appear at anthor. This
> sounds to me like Teleporation.
> If a player asked me for this effect I would have to tell him to buy
> Teleportation. I think buying FTL usable in the atmosphere instead of
> Teleporation is just a way to save points.
>
I know I'm in a minority on this, but I've never liked the construction of
Teleportation for rapid movement.
The first sentence of the description of teleport reads "A character with
this Movement Power can disappear from one point and appear at another,
without traveling in between." While I'm not a strict adherent to the
"first sentence rule" (I use Summon to create things out of thin air, for
example) the intent of this power seems fairly clear. Using it for rapid
movement brings up lots of logical problems. Why should a superfast
character have to have his or her destination memorized or in sight? Why
does a Teleportation Suppression field stop the character from moving?
(Since I'm quoting rules, it's only fair to mention that the first
sentence of FTL Travel clearly indicates that it is intended for FTL in
outer space; but that's what I believe is broken.)
But you're right, there is a potential cost imbalance here. A base 10
point FTL can get you to the other side of the planet in a phase, while it
would take a fairly high cost Teleport and a memorized location to get
there. To correct this, I would require at least 2 Advantages: Usable
Within Atmosphere, and Instantaneous Acceleration. Or perhaps Advantages
wouldn't be the best way to do this, since there's really not much
difference between lightspeed Usable within Atmosphere and 512x lightspeed
Usable Within Atmosphere; I'd consider simply making them add on costs to
FTL, like Darkness vs. different senses.
While I'm on the topic of FTL and Teleport, I wish there were a way to
interface the two. It's very difficult to build an interplanetary
teleporter, and certainly more costly than it's worth. I suspect the
original rules for Teleportation were based on Nightcrawler, and while
options for increased distance since the third edition have made things a
bit more flexible, long range teleports are still pretty expensive.
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:17:28 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA/ Desol Super Dodge
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Fri, 12 Dec 1997, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
(Bill wrote:)
>
> > I tend to disagree with Rat as much as anyone, but I have to say I don't
> > care much for the Desolid Dodge construction. It brings up the question:
> > why should an "Affects Desolid" attack *hit* someone with a superhuman
> > dodge?
>
> Ah. The one main argument and problem.
>
> >
> > Admittedly, Affects Desolid is a pretty questionable advantage. I tend to
>
>
> Way too true. I personally usually don't allow it. But the
> Affects Desol attacks are usually suggested to be "super Meta-Attacks"
> that seem to be able to affect anything. Therefore, if they can affect a
> ghost, living light, living air, mist, and whatnot for the one advantage,
> and we accept it, we might at well accept it can affect Super Dodge.
>
> However, arguing the construction doesn't work because it is
> affected by a section of the rules that is broken and causes other legit
> constructions not to work is not a valid argument.
>
But why use a construction that gets into broken rules when there's such
a simple, straightforward way to do it: Levels with Dodge? In cases when a
power or ability might be built more than one way, I generally go with the
method that flows most smoothly within the rules.
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:19:19 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Crossover Adventures
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
> I think that a book of crossover adventure with *several* universes would be
> neat. CU, NMU, and a few others I could think of would be cool. Maybe that' an
> idea -- a book of several such adventures, with conversions for each
> applicable gaming system. I don't see that the licensing would be too
> difficult (given our past success with licensing).
>
> So let me ask you, what universes would *you* folks like to see in such a
> product? Mind you, this would be a one-time product, not an ongoing series...
Hmmm...
<humor mode one>
How about the Champions meet Southpark? Consider the posibilities!
Cartman: Yeah, that Obsidian sure thinks he's buff! But I'm so buff I
can't fit through the door!
Stan: Gee Ms. Solitaire, you sure have a skimpy costume.
Kenny: Mrmrmrmrmr...
Stan: Yeah, I only thought that happened when it was cold out.
Solitiare: I can't help it, it's some sort of 90's comic thing.
Seeker: Look out kids! It's Dr. Destroyer!
SFX: Brzzappp!!!
Kids: You bastard! You killed Kenny!
</humor mode off>
Well, maybe not.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:21:09 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
> But if we're going to go to the expense of reprinting the game, wouldn't you
> rather see us take opportunity to clean up the rest of the typos, throw in
> some new artwork, change the trade dress (i.e., the outside cover design) and
> layout, maybe? And there are a few MINOR rules changes that Hero wants to
> make. And let's not forget that we can also streamline those cumbersome rules,
> along with including more or better examples...
These are all points I totally agree with. More and better examples of
all potentially confusing advantages (liked indirect) and limitations
(like linked) would be nice.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:29:27 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, Michael Nunn wrote:
> The other comment is "No more hard covers" In my group we have 5 copies of
> the BBB all 5 have fallen apart.
>
> Juat a general question to the list, did that happen to everyone?
I think 4 out of 5 of our hardbacks have split arpart of otherwise started
to breakdown.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 09:00:33 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: It's Not Easy Being Green
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
I was over at a friend's house last night, and she was watching the
"Frosty the Snowman" special on CBS.
At that time, I noticed something for the first time: The villain of
the piece, Professor Hinkle, is green. And, it occurred to me, so is the
Grinch, and so is the Wicked Witch of the West. And so are Brainiac (early
Silver Age version) and the Leader, to name just the comic villains I'm
most familiar with.
Oh, and does anyone remember Yvonne Craig's guest role on the original
Star Trek series? She was green, and a homicidal maniac.
Obviously, green people are not getting a fair shake. Even the Hulk,
who is terminologically a green hero, is known for his harsh temper, making
him more of an anti-hero.
With all of these evil green people, only Brainiac 5 and She-Hulk stand
out among notable green people in fiction as true heroes in any medium.
(Kermit doesn't count; he's a frog.)
I say, greens should get together to fight this obvious media
stereotyping and discrimination. A perfect name for a pro-green
organization would be the Green Panthers. This group could do things like
file protests with the Anti-Defamation League, stage demonstrations at
comic companies and animation studios, and lobby Congress and other
legislative bodies for green-rights legislation.
Greens should definitely be recognized as a legitimate minority group,
and all Affirmative Action and Equal Employment Opportunity laws should
apply to them. So should all hate-crime laws; it should be illegal to
attack someone just because they're green.
Positive treatment of greens should be modeled on television and in
comics. No more calling a woman a "witch" just because she's green. No
more assuming that someone is a "gamma freak" just because he's green. No
more color-based nicknames like Kelly, Forrest, or Lyman. A green person
is just that -- or, if you prefer, an Emerald-American.
Green people simply *must* be treated as just that -- people, who just
happen to have green skin. They are not necessarily evil, and they are not
necessarily a part of this whole good vs evil battle, at least not in the
violent sense. Green people can be attorneys, scientists, and stage
performers. One could even be living in your neighborhood, hiding his
color with makeup out of fear of being ridiculed or worse because of it.
Have compassion.
Green power.
Thank you.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:16:42 -0600
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net
Organization: Redbow Antiques
Subject: Re:Champions 5th editon
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
I would hope that if you do reprint the BBB you do revise it. I am not
talking a total new edition just a revision as you have said. Just clean
things up a little and it would be wonderful.
Also, I downloaded your two chapters of SA:COH from your
website. Wow!!I love it already and can't wait for more. I will
definantly be picking it up and hope that it meets just a little of the
potential that it seems to have.
From: "VANSICKLE, James" <jvansickle@shl.com>
Subject: RE: It's Not Easy Being Green
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:19:13 -0600
Encoding: 60 TEXT
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<lol> Bob <lol>
I really think you have too much time on your hands. It may be cold,
but it's somewhat a nice day outside. <lol>
James
>----------
>From: Bob Greenwade[SMTP:bob.greenwade@klock.com]
>Sent: Saturday, December 13, 1997 12:10 PM
>To: champ-l@omg.org
>Subject: It's Not Easy Being Green
>
> I was over at a friend's house last night, and she was watching the
>"Frosty the Snowman" special on CBS.
> At that time, I noticed something for the first time: The villain of
>the piece, Professor Hinkle, is green. And, it occurred to me, so is the
>Grinch, and so is the Wicked Witch of the West. And so are Brainiac (early
>Silver Age version) and the Leader, to name just the comic villains I'm
>most familiar with.
> Oh, and does anyone remember Yvonne Craig's guest role on the original
>Star Trek series? She was green, and a homicidal maniac.
> Obviously, green people are not getting a fair shake. Even the Hulk,
>who is terminologically a green hero, is known for his harsh temper, making
>him more of an anti-hero.
> With all of these evil green people, only Brainiac 5 and She-Hulk stand
>out among notable green people in fiction as true heroes in any medium.
>(Kermit doesn't count; he's a frog.)
> I say, greens should get together to fight this obvious media
>stereotyping and discrimination. A perfect name for a pro-green
>organization would be the Green Panthers. This group could do things like
>file protests with the Anti-Defamation League, stage demonstrations at
>comic companies and animation studios, and lobby Congress and other
>legislative bodies for green-rights legislation.
> Greens should definitely be recognized as a legitimate minority group,
>and all Affirmative Action and Equal Employment Opportunity laws should
>apply to them. So should all hate-crime laws; it should be illegal to
>attack someone just because they're green.
> Positive treatment of greens should be modeled on television and in
>comics. No more calling a woman a "witch" just because she's green. No
>more assuming that someone is a "gamma freak" just because he's green. No
>more color-based nicknames like Kelly, Forrest, or Lyman. A green person
>is just that -- or, if you prefer, an Emerald-American.
> Green people simply *must* be treated as just that -- people, who just
>happen to have green skin. They are not necessarily evil, and they are not
>necessarily a part of this whole good vs evil battle, at least not in the
>violent sense. Green people can be attorneys, scientists, and stage
>performers. One could even be living in your neighborhood, hiding his
>color with makeup out of fear of being ridiculed or worse because of it.
> Have compassion.
> Green power.
> Thank you.
>---
>Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
>Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
>
>
>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 13:26:27 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: It's Not Easy Being Green
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
I think Bob's been working too hard on TUSV lately.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
From: Egyptoid <Egyptoid@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 13:45:25 EST
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: CHAR: KARZA DRONES
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
KARZA'S DRONE PEOPLE
18 STR DF: Pretty/Handsome, but slack
11 DEX DF: Serial Number Tattoos
11 CON DF: Human, unless examined at Genetic Level
8 BODY Psych: Must Obey Karza or Karza's Officers
5 INT Psych: Dull & Listless outside of Combat or Job
5 EGO Psych: Not Streetwise or Savvy of Real World
5 PRE Susc: Coordinated Attacks, 1d6
15 COM Vuln: 2x Effect Mind-Altering Powers or Drugs
11 PD Berserk: at 3 or less Body
11 ED Physical: Cannot Attack Opposite Sex
2 SPD Dependence: Sex & Breeding, 1x day
10 REC
30 END
30 STUN
+2 SPEED, Only for Job related actions or to fire weapon.
+3 EGO, Only in Combat or on Job
+3 INT, Only in Combat or on Job
Life Supp: Only Needs 5% of the oxygen of a regular human
Everyman Skills (warped for Drone Society)
KS: Job Skill (Mining, Cleaning, Child-Rearing, Paramedic, etc)
KS: Karza's Minions & Slaves (Identify Friend-Foe)
PS: Slave Job (Miner, Janitor, Porter, Maid, Breeder, Med-Tech, etc)
Survival: Micro-Realm Ecology
Ultravision
Section Chiefs and all members of Combat Patrols have the following Foci:
Flash Def Sunglasses 2 points (Chief: 5 pts)
RKA Pistol 2d6, Area Effect, One Hex (Bone Sliver Bullets) (Chief: 3d6)
Flak Outfits: 6/4 armor, Activate 14- (Chief: 9/9)
Life Support: No Eat, Breathe, Safe in Cold (Skillsuits)
Aid Belts: 3d6, Trigger at 0 Stun: to END, Body, Stun
3 Members of Combat Patrols will additionally have:
Net-Guns: 9d6 Entangle, 6 Charge Clips x4, Area Effect, One Hex
Needle-Guns: 5d6 NND (Force Wall/Field), AE1Hex, 6 Charge Clips x 4
Grenade-Spitter: 4d6 RKA Explosion, +2 Stun Multi. 6 Charges
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Baron Karza's secret city is populated by these "people".
They are the Menial Labor Force that built Karza's new empire.
the original 2, Yvonne & Steve, were bred together again & again,
with Karza's genetic design. For the most part, strong resemblance
is the norm, like being at a triplets convention with a THX-1138 theme.
Think 1984, peopled by the kids from Village of the Damned, and that's
about the right image. Drone-people do their jobs well and don't have
much personal initiative, just the way Karza likes it.
If examined, fully one third of the females will be pregnant, and
multiple fetus are the norm, not the exception. Karza wants an
army of national proportions. His early-on program of positive
eugenics keeps the small gene pool from getting inbred. The heroes
will find large creches, nurseries & hospitals. Drones can see in
the dark, learn their jobs well, breed like aphids, and possess
extremely efficient lungs & circulation. Their short stature and
limited intellects are side effects of Karza's vanity.
The area effect weapons compensate for their stinko combat stats.
Drones are esily confused if double-teamed, and tend to collapse
when confronted by superior-seeming tactics.
--
Elliott@tmscorp.com aka Egyptoid
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:46:25 -0600
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net
Organization: Redbow Antiques
Subject: Re: Atmospheric FTL
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
I like something that the Ultimate Super Mage has done. It allows you
to use Extradimensional Movement to travel to strange places that normal
people won't normal go to, for example the surface of Mars.
I know that this is an optional rule, but it allows more leeway in
characters that can travel great distances. They don't have to spend all
thier points on teleportation.
I do think using the x2 NC movement for +5 points allows for extremely
fast characters. There is no need to have a character that can travel,
whether by teleportion of flight or FTL, very fast in combat. A point is
reached that any further movement in combat is worthless.
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 13:53:31 -0500
From: "Kevin J. McClain" <KevLord@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: KevLord@worldnet.att.net
Organization: Courts of Kirkwood
Subject: [Fwd: Ha! I KNEW it!! Magic is EVIL!!!]
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Captain Spith wrote:
> potroast@theoven wrote:
> >
> > Please tell that this sarcasiam and yes, I've had a co-woker tell me (with
> > a straight face) that the merfolk card that I was using for a bookmard was
> > evil and I was going to hell,<....snip>
>
> (Referring to Mr. Hanson's)
>
> > >I was just channel surfing, and a shot of a Magic card caught my eye.
> > > It was especially intrigueing because it was on the Christian
> > > Broadcasting Network.
> > >
> > > Needless to say, I stopped long enough to see what they had to say. It
> > > was a 'special report' on how the Magic card game is corrupting kids,
> > > teaching them to kill and murder and worship the devil and cast spells
> > > and...
>
> <etc....)
>
> Okay, now we ALL know that Magic (the Card Game) is Evil, and we
> don't need the folks on the God Channel to tell us that. I have
> actually heard (sorry, I can't recall exactly where) similar claims by
> similar people about Champions specifically as well!
>
> I used to think that These People would cull the rare, isolated freak
> events from the genre(s) to hold up for examples of Evil for the hordes,
> but one day I heard something that showed me that They don't even put
> that much effort into it:
>
> In a diatribe against AD&D (I know the easier of the RPG targets, but
> bear with me), a lady on a Radio God Channel related a tale of two boys
> turned to Satan! Desinsitized to things demonic (apparently), in one
> game, one of the boys invoked the power of Satan to _win_the_game_.
> Well, the next time they played, the OTHER boy invoked the dark power,
> so HE could _win_the_game_ instead. Then there was further stuff and a
> slippery slope and yadda yadda yadda, anyway....
> It immediately occored to me that - with only as much detail as I
> have presented here, the anecdote resembled NO D&D GAME I HAD EVER
> SEEN! Even in a solo adventure, I've never known a game to result in
> one of the participants 'winning' over the other.
>
> It then occured to me that These People must not even need to believe
> their own crap, since They don't even have anecdoted grounded in
> legitimate parameters.
>
> Besides, every time *I* invoke the Dark Power, it has nothing to do
> with RPG's whatever! That would be pointless. >:-)>
>
I would like to submit a fundamental Christian point of view in case any of
you great minds are interested.
First of all, don't confuse people on so called Christian Radio/Television with
real Christians. The only church ordained by God is a local New Testament
Church(denomination is irrelevant as long as they believe all the doctrines of
the Bible.) TV and Radio Ministries tend to take away from local churches and
have a philosophy of monetary gain. They also are used to launch an occasional
political career.
Secondly, any Bible believing Christian will tell you that no card game, nor any
role playing game will send a person to Hell. The only sin that sends you to
Hell is unbelief. If you don't believe that Jesus died for your sins then there
is no hope for you.
Thirdly, the Bible teaches that there are only two forces at work here on Earth,
God and Satan.. Satan is the Prince of the air and ruler of the world(things
physical). If something is not of God, then it is of Satan. Many Christians will
then say if it is not of God then it is evil. By their definition then Magic is
evil, Champions is evil, toasters are evil... You see how ridiculous it can
become. The Christian life is supposed to be balanced. You cannot remove
yourself from the world physically but you are supposed to spiritually. It helps
to limit your exposure to non-Godly things. If you consider yourself a
Christian, and you play games, have fun. But don't allow Magic or Champions or
anything else become your God. Have you ever missed church to play a game?
Kev
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
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Subject: Re: Ha! I KNEW it!! Magic is EVIL!!!
References: <19971213051823.AAA18866@default>
X-Hero: champ-l
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 97 07:53:51 +0000
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potroast@theoven wrote:
>
> Please tell that this sarcasiam and yes, I've had a co-woker tell me (with
> a straight face) that the merfolk card that I was using for a bookmard was
> evil and I was going to hell,<....snip>
(Referring to Mr. Hanson's)
> >I was just channel surfing, and a shot of a Magic card caught my eye.
> > It was especially intrigueing because it was on the Christian
> > Broadcasting Network.
> >
> > Needless to say, I stopped long enough to see what they had to say. It
> > was a 'special report' on how the Magic card game is corrupting kids,
> > teaching them to kill and murder and worship the devil and cast spells
> > and...
<etc....)
Okay, now we ALL know that Magic (the Card Game) is Evil, and we
don't need the folks on the God Channel to tell us that. I have
actually heard (sorry, I can't recall exactly where) similar claims by
similar people about Champions specifically as well!
I used to think that These People would cull the rare, isolated freak
events from the genre(s) to hold up for examples of Evil for the hordes,
but one day I heard something that showed me that They don't even put
that much effort into it:
In a diatribe against AD&D (I know the easier of the RPG targets, but
bear with me), a lady on a Radio God Channel related a tale of two boys
turned to Satan! Desinsitized to things demonic (apparently), in one
game, one of the boys invoked the power of Satan to _win_the_game_.
Well, the next time they played, the OTHER boy invoked the dark power,
so HE could _win_the_game_ instead. Then there was further stuff and a
slippery slope and yadda yadda yadda, anyway....
It immediately occored to me that - with only as much detail as I
have presented here, the anecdote resembled NO D&D GAME I HAD EVER
SEEN! Even in a solo adventure, I've never known a game to result in
one of the participants 'winning' over the other.
It then occured to me that These People must not even need to believe
their own crap, since They don't even have anecdoted grounded in
legitimate parameters.
Besides, every time *I* invoke the Dark Power, it has nothing to do
with RPG's whatever! That would be pointless. >:-)>
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:11:29 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Regenerating limbs
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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-- Robert A. West wrote:
>
> Our story so far: Rick Holding proposed using Drain/BODY to represent a
> limb-loss special effect. I objected on various grounds, including the
> fact that limbs would regrow as the drain faded. In reply:
>
> Rick Holding wrote:
>>
>> I am fully aware that drains fade. But even the write up for Drain says "By
>> moving the return rate far down the time chart, it is possible to effectively
>> destroy an opponent's characteristic or power." Moving the recovery down to
>> 5pts/year is not anywhere near far enough. Make it recover 1 character point per
>> 100 years (+3? +3 1/2?). This means immortals will grow back lost body parts.
>> Why not? Being immortal probarly should include some sort of slow regen. But >> normals will not regrow lost limbs.
>
> 1 point/century would be equivalent to 1/500y, which is fourteen steps on
> the time chart, which is +3 1/2! Your limb-loss attack is now costing
> an impressive 35 active points per die! Actually, 45 points oer die. You forgot about the drain die itself.
> Of course, you would take some
> sort of limitation for the fact that the Drain cannot affect more points
> than are represented by a limb, and cost advantage was not part of your
> argument, but the fact is worthy of remark. This does have an
> interesting literary precedent: IIRC, Larry Niven postulated that humans
> would gain some ability to regrow lost body parts if their life span were
> sufficiently enhanced.
>
> I still think that Transform is preferrable in this context that it is
> the *only* power that can give a character a character disadvantage.
> This is why Transform is used in Hero Almanac I to represent most Curses.
> If you take away an arm, you are not so much taking away BODY (again, I
> don't think that one-armed men are more easily killed by a given blow
> than two-armed ones), as you are placing limitations on various other
> powers and characteristics. STR is less useful if one does not have two
> hands with which to balance. DEX is less useful if people can get to the
> side away from your arm. One probably has an OCV/DCV penalty in HTH
> combat. And so on.
>
> I would *not* be comfortable with granting those effects as SFX of the
> Drain, and I would find it very hard to write up a set of linked powers,
> or a multi-power Drain, that does the job. On the other hand (the one
> that is left after we lose an arm) Major Transform can readily do all
> these things.
Certainly, many other factors would need to be considered. But, it IS a valid
approach. So is yours. Costs would be about the same. 1D6 Body destruction costs 45
points active, 1D6 dex and strength drain (recovers much quicker by the use of rehab)
costs 25 points each and is stopped by power defence. Total cost 95 active points.
Major transform, non cumulative, 6D6 (average roll 21 points for double normal body)
costs 90 points.
My way allows regeneration to regrow lost limbs, which was the original start
of the thread.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 14:40:08 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: CHAR: KARZA DRONES
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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>KARZA'S DRONE PEOPLE
>
> 18 STR DF: Pretty/Handsome, but slack
> 11 DEX DF: Serial Number Tattoos
> 11 CON DF: Human, unless examined at Genetic Level
<rant mode: ON>
Excuse me, but how could this be in any way _worth_ points in Champions? I
mean, if there's only _one_, very specific, not-likely-to-be-used method of
discerning that they're 'not human', how is this a 'distinctive feature'?
Sure, it's an interesting little biological quirk, but it's about a
distinctive a feature as DF: Diabetic or DF: Sterile. It's not even worth a
piddling 5 points, IMHO.
<rant mode: OFF>
> +2 SPEED, Only for Job related actions or to fire weapon.
Arg. Am I the only one who thinks SPD 'only for X' should be outlawed in the
5th edition?
> Ultravision
You mean Ultraviolet Vision?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 14:17:28 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> What about side-bars (assuming they're actually used for something besides
> light grayscale artwork)?
k
Side-Bars are *good*. We like side-bars.
Seriously, one thing I think that is better about later Hero 4th
products is the existence of side-bars to throw a few asides into the mix.
-Tim Gilberg
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 15:17:42 EST
Subject: Re: Extra Time
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< Actually, the Limitation really does say that the time listed is extra;
thus, Extra Time: 1 Phase makes an attack take 1.5 Phases. However, it also
says that you can do whatever you want in the extra time (except make an
attack if you're activating an attack power). Most people who envision Extra
Time don't have this in mind. >>
(In my gaming group) We've never interpreted the rules this way.
<< Everyone I've ever played with uses "attack takes an extra 1/2 phase,
during
which you can't do anything else" >>
<< While I do consider that a valid argument to an extent (I use that type of
argument myself), everyone I've ever played with uses "attack takes the time
listed.">>
In our group, Extra Time: 1 Phase" means it requires a full Phase to
"generate" the attack, during which time the character cannot do anything else
(pick a lock, start a car, dictate notes, etc.).
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 15:17:50 EST
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< You can't use EB without the attack roll, and making the attack roll ends
your
phase.>>
What about a warning shot? ;)
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 15:17:52 EST
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< That Perez cover will be a hard one to top though!>>
I take it you haven't seen the covers to SA:CoH or Sengoku, then. We don't
plan on acquiring "mediocre" art for a 5th Ed. book, Michael. ;)
That brings up another question: What kind of illo would you folks like to
see for the cover? A collage of different scenes? A comic-booky sort of illo
(usually a fight scene)?
One other note. Keep in mind that, primarily because of financial
considerations, we are looking at printing the Hero System rules book
separately, with Champions being a genre book. Champions would have the super
power rules in there, as well as a *much* better treatment of the genre,
examples, no "official universe" inside (rather examples and notes on creating
several different types, etc., but the Hero System "core" rules would be in
the Hero System rules book.
I realize this may not be a popular decision, and I'm willing to hear well
reasoned discussion for or against the idea. But please consider that
reprinting the BBB as it is now would cost *us* a lot of money, and the retail
price would likely be $40 or more (and that for a softcover with no
software!). We want folks to buy it, and the only way to keep the prices
reasonable is to limit some of the content. This seems the most logical way to
do that.
In addition, future genre books would be published like the "new" Champions
book, and we may even be able to publish revisions of older genre books
(Fantasy Hero, anyone?).
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 15:18:27 EST
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< Like? >>
Like dropping Hand Attack.
<< And let's not forget that we can also streamline those cumbersome rules,
<< Careful there. Every time I hear someone say that I think I'm about to get
hit with a Fuzion add.>>
Well, relax. Like I said before, we're not spending thousands of dollars
developing this stuff just to "destroy" 4th Ed. Remember, too, that we love
the game.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 15:18:29 EST
Subject: Cardboard Heroes
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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Since it seems that the majority of folks (onthis list, anyway) would like
to see more cardboard minis, let me ask you this: Would you be willing to pay
an extra $2 for a book that had them included?
Mark @ GRG
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 14:19:11 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA/ Desol Super Dodge
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> Hmm.. a character that uses Desolidification, with Totally Invisible power
> effects... with the special effect of "awesome Zen-like martial arts ability
> to avoid blows" or some such (a la Remo Williams, or legendary ninja
> abilities, etc). Too wild? Too GROSS?
Just right. And IPE is needed only if it isn't obvious that the
character is dodging. I.E, he doesn't actively go into some special
"dodge-state". Like I've said, it works fine if you don't want to do any
attacks at the same time. Otherwise, the "Affects Physical World" needed
on all your powers plus STR is really expensive.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 14:21:35 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> << I agree completely. I think a lot of people believe that a '5th Edition'
> will fix their *particular* complaints with the rules. You don't need a
> '5th Edition' to do that, just say "in my game, this is how its going to be."
> >>
>
> But if we're going to go to the expense of reprinting the game, wouldn't you
> rather see us take opportunity to clean up the rest of the typos, throw in
> some new artwork, change the trade dress (i.e., the outside cover design) and
> layout, maybe? And there are a few MINOR rules changes that Hero wants to
> make. And let's not forget that we can also streamline those cumbersome rules,
> along with including more or better examples...
Right, but this isn't really a new edition then. This, to me, is
what West End did with their 2nd edition, Revised and Expanded for the
Star Wars RPG. A few minor rules changes mixed with a much flashier and
slicker product (lots of color, pictures, etc). They also included tons
of new explinations and examples to make it easier for the newbie to get
into the product. That last I think would be the best reason for
something of the sort -- we need new blood!
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 14:24:57 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage o
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> t > Having two powers be seperate and together isn't allowed at all, even
> t > with
> t > any type of advantage. Buy them all seperately, in a MP if you wish.
> t > -Tim Gilberg
>
> What's so horrifying about having two powers that can be used
> independently or gang-fired?
Basically, it takes the focus away from SFX and into power
effects. You define a SFX and take a power for it. You don't take a
couple of powers, give them each SFX, then say that together they make up
a new SFX.
-Tim Gilberg
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:30:17 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Ha! I KNEW it!! Magic is EVIL!!!]
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 03:29 AM 12/13/97 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote:
>> You see how ridiculous it can become. The Christian life is supposed to
>> be balanced. You cannot remove yourself from the world physically but you
>> are supposed to spiritually. It helps to limit your exposure to non-Godly
>> things. If you consider yourself a Christian, and you play games, have
>> fun. But don't allow Magic or Champions or anything else become your God.
>> Have you ever missed church to play a game?
>
>Ah, here we have the whole quandary: if God is everywhere (at least,
>his/her/its awareness is everywhere, on account of being omniscient), then
>isn't "church" wherever and however I choose to worship him? Maybe it's
>okay if we just say a grace before breaking out the decks. :]
It seems to me that this whole thread is even more pathetic and
irrelavent than if my post on "green people's rights" had been serious.
We've been over this topic before, people. Far too often. It only gets
acrimonious (in fact, it started that way this time), and it has
*absolutely nothing* to do with Champions or the Hero System. (Whereas my
"Green Rights" post could be taken by someone with a humorous bent, or with
a thought toward creating an alien rights' group in his campaign.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 14:32:21 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage o
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> Ahhh.... I (finally) see what you're saying...
Let's see if you do.
> You're assuming that 0 phase actions occur sequentially...
> that there is a difference, for instance between, "I
> activate my Force Field and put my levels to DCV" and
> "I put my Levels to DCV and activate my Force Field"
Well, kinda. There is a sequence, but for powers that won't
require an attack roll/action, there really is no difference.
> or perhaps, more rellevantly, I could shift my levels
> to OCV, and then activate an attack power (and make
> the obligatory attack action), but if I activated
> the attack power 'first' I would be obliged to attack
> before I could shift my levels to OCV....
Yup. Basically because of the special behavior of the attack
action.
> Thus, you can't ever activate two attack powers in
> the same phase, because the 'first' one activated
> obliges you to make the attack roll or waste the
> power (shoot yourself in the foot, I guess).
Right. As the books says in few points that attack powers are
used by activating and attacking with them, you aren't able to activate
anymore.
> Of course, if you assume that all zero phase
> actions happen concurrently (and there's
> absolutely no difference in the time it takes
> to do several things that take no time all
> at once, and the same number of things that
> take no time one after the other), then a character
Well, there isn't. Except when one of the actions actually
requires a 0-phase plus a 1/2 phase attack roll.
> could activate more than one attack power
> at the same time, they'd all go off at the
> exact precise-to-the-nanosecond Instant, and
> could be targeted with a single attack roll.
Nope. Not possible. See above.
> Now is that over-analysis or what? :)
Nah. Just the argument summed up.
> you can only use one or the other, unless
> you take linked, in which case you *must* use
> both, and that there's no middle ground.
Never said there was no middle ground, simply said you had to pay
for it, probably with a MP.
-Tim Gilberg
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:40:10 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 03:18 PM 12/13/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
> Since it seems that the majority of folks (onthis list, anyway) would like
>to see more cardboard minis, let me ask you this: Would you be willing to pay
>an extra $2 for a book that had them included?
Speaking for myself, yes.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 14:40:56 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA/ Desol Super Dodge
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> > However, arguing the construction doesn't work because it is
> > affected by a section of the rules that is broken and causes other legit
> > constructions not to work is not a valid argument.
> >
> But why use a construction that gets into broken rules when there's such
Then why use that power (Desol) at all. Take lots of defenses to
not get damaged and some tunneling with closed tunnel to go through stuff.
> a simple, straightforward way to do it: Levels with Dodge? In cases when a
> power or ability might be built more than one way, I generally go with the
> method that flows most smoothly within the rules.
And like I said, this is almost fine. It does, however, bring up
the possibility of the lucky shot. And some of the SFX just don't allow
for the lucky shot.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 14:42:10 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Crossover Adventures
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> <humor mode one>
>
> How about the Champions meet Southpark? Consider the posibilities!
< examples cut >
Oh wow, that made today a lot brighter. Thanks.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 15:49:36 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
> > << I agree completely. I think a lot of people believe that a '5th Edition'
> > will fix their *particular* complaints with the rules. You don't need a
> > '5th Edition' to do that, just say "in my game, this is how its going to be."
> > >>
> >
> > But if we're going to go to the expense of reprinting the game, wouldn't you
> > rather see us take opportunity to clean up the rest of the typos, throw in
> > some new artwork, change the trade dress (i.e., the outside cover design) and
> > layout, maybe? And there are a few MINOR rules changes that Hero wants to
> > make. And let's not forget that we can also streamline those cumbersome rules,
> > along with including more or better examples...
>
>
> Right, but this isn't really a new edition then. This, to me, is
> what West End did with their 2nd edition, Revised and Expanded for the
> Star Wars RPG. A few minor rules changes mixed with a much flashier and
> slicker product (lots of color, pictures, etc). They also included tons
> of new explinations and examples to make it easier for the newbie to get
> into the product. That last I think would be the best reason for
> something of the sort -- we need new blood!
>
Actually, this sounds something like what the 3rd edition was. It got rid
of the 2nd edition's bending eyebeam on the cover, fixed up a few rough
spots, and looked a bit slicker.
I'm all for the 5th ed. In addition to the various suggestions people have
already made, I hope it includes either a "slipperiness" power or a
revised Change Environment that can make an icy surface with combat
effects. (My pet peeve.)
If there are any extensive changes at all, I wouldn't mind seeing
something like (but not exactly like) the "Incomplete Character" rules.
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 15:14:44 -0600
From: John Stefanski <jstefanski@internetMCI.com>
Subject: RE: Greetings, Bindings
Reply-to: "jstefanski@iname.com" <jstefanski@iname.com>
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
I also bought one of the first books out of the box in Chicago and over the
next year mine fell apart. I understand there was a batch of defective
buindings out there. Later I also purchased the delux with Heromaker, which
has "weathered the storm" since.
JS
On December 13, 1997 12:03 AM, Brian Wong [SMTP:rook@shell.infinex.com]
wrote:
| > The other comment is "No more hard covers" In my group we have 5
copies of
| > the BBB all 5 have fallen apart.
| >
| > Juat a general question to the list, did that happen to everyone?
| >
| Actually, I bought the first printing of 4th edition the very day it
| got into Games of Berkeley. Had to wait on them to unpack it for me...
| Bindings still solid as a rock. In 1995 I went out and got a second
| copy, this time the deluxe with Heromaker. It too is holding up solid.
| Of course, I also have first printing Unearth Arcana (AD&D) holding up
| solid until I sold it along with the rest of my AD&D stuff last year.
| Only book that ever fell apart on me was a softcover of GURPS 3rd
edition
| I bought in 1989. I stuck it in a 3ring binder and shelved it next to the
other
| two copies of third edition GURPS I have (one hardcover, one revised).
|
|
| Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
|
| Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
| My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 16:16:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: CHAR: KARZA DRONES
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>
> > +2 SPEED, Only for Job related actions or to fire weapon.
>
> Arg. Am I the only one who thinks SPD 'only for X' should be outlawed in the
> 5th edition?
Nope. I don't care for it either.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 16:23:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Crossover Adventures
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> > <humor mode one>
> >
> > How about the Champions meet Southpark? Consider the posibilities!
>
> < examples cut >
>
> Oh wow, that made today a lot brighter. Thanks.
Hey, I try.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 15:26:52 -0600
From: John Stefanski <jstefanski@internetMCI.com>
Subject: Villian groups
Reply-to: "jstefanski@iname.com" <jstefanski@iname.com>
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Humor me on this one!
I like to construct scenarios with touches of current events and or people
twisted enough to fit into a four color genre. Has anyone put together a
villain group based on the Spice Girls? You have five different
personalities that could be used to create five different villains banded
together to promote "Girl Power."
JS
================
JS Stefanski
There can BE only one.
You'll be dead.
Hey, let's build a raft.
We need a spelunker.
================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 16:29:10 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
> That brings up another question: What kind of illo would you folks like to
> see for the cover? A collage of different scenes? A comic-booky sort of illo
> (usually a fight scene)?
A comic-based sourcebook or module should have a comic like cover. Other
books should have covers that fit the genres. Collages work well for
something like 'Star Hero' of 'Hero System Rule Book', the 'Champions
Supherhero Genre' book should have something that says 'comics' right on
the cover. This is usaully an action shot of some sort.
> One other note. Keep in mind that, primarily because of financial
> considerations, we are looking at printing the Hero System rules book
> separately, with Champions being a genre book. Champions would have the super
> power rules in there, as well as a *much* better treatment of the genre,
> examples, no "official universe" inside (rather examples and notes on creating
> several different types, etc., but the Hero System "core" rules would be in
> the Hero System rules book.
This is the best way I think. The forumal should be Hero=any genre, not
just Hero=Champions.
> I realize this may not be a popular decision, and I'm willing to hear well
> reasoned discussion for or against the idea. But please consider that
> reprinting the BBB as it is now would cost *us* a lot of money, and the retail
> price would likely be $40 or more (and that for a softcover with no
> software!). We want folks to buy it, and the only way to keep the prices
> reasonable is to limit some of the content. This seems the most logical way to
> do that.
Putting out two seperate books sounds like a good idea. Is there any hope
of GRG then releasing (or rereleasing) other gnere books? Such as:
Justice Inc, Danger International, Star Hero II, Horror Hero, Western
Hero, Fantasy Hero
and so on?
> In addition, future genre books would be published like the "new" Champions
> book, and we may even be able to publish revisions of older genre books
> (Fantasy Hero, anyone?).
Oops, guess I should read fully before responding.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 16:39:09 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA/ Desol Super Dodge
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
> > > However, arguing the construction doesn't work because it is
> > > affected by a section of the rules that is broken and causes other legit
> > > constructions not to work is not a valid argument.
> > >
> > But why use a construction that gets into broken rules when there's such
>
> Then why use that power (Desol) at all. Take lots of defenses to
> not get damaged and some tunneling with closed tunnel to go through stuff.
>
This doesn't work smoothly. You end up with a finite amount of damage
capacity, you have to pay a fortune to ignore STUN and BODY from both
energy and physical attacks, and you have to pay a fortune or for some
reason the ghost can't pass through high DEF materials. And then you have
to set things up so that you can't attack while you're tunneling, unless
somebody else is tunneling just like you, etc. Whatever its flaws,
Desolidification is necessary as a power.
> > a simple, straightforward way to do it: Levels with Dodge? In cases when a
> > power or ability might be built more than one way, I generally go with the
> > method that flows most smoothly within the rules.
>
> And like I said, this is almost fine. It does, however, bring up
> the possibility of the lucky shot. And some of the SFX just don't allow
> for the lucky shot.
It isn't that hard to reduce *any* chance of hitting to a 3. Yes, there
is a chance of an occasional 3 being rolled, but only if the GM insists
on their being attack rolls. If I were a GM who agreed to letting a player
be unhittable, I'd let him build a 30 DCV or so with levels, then ignore
the attack roll altogether.
This isn't exactly strict adherence to the rules, of course, but in this
case you're postulating SFX which run exactly counter to the rules'
insistence that there can *always* be a lucky shot. I'd consider a
campaign which includes unhittable dodges to be a genre requiring some
house rules, like "3 doesn't always hit."
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Extra Time
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 21:50:24 +0000 (GMT)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> >>> Normally, an EB (or any attack power) takes a 1/2 phase action to
> >>> use. The full phase extra time amount means it takes a whole phase to
> >>> use.
> >>I see no support for this in the rules. If a Power has "Extra Time - 1
> >>Phase", it means just that... it takes an _extra_ phase.
> >I think *my* confusion may have stemmed from "Extra Time - *Full* Phase"
> >which is how it is actually stated (emphasis mine). This led *me* (and
> >possibly Mr. Gilberg) to believe that this simply extended the time of
> >activation, not that it was an additive. In the text description of the
> >Limitation, it mentions a power that takes a month (not a
> >month-and-a-phase) to activate.
>
> It also seems to me that all of the published characters with Extra Time
> attacks have them saying "Full Phase" rather than "Extra Phase."
The issue is MOOT.
After all, it's a limitation. And one of the limitations in the book is
'limited'. So any limitation can be interpreted as a variation of 'limited'
and assigned a value by the GM.
So weather it takes a full phase or 1.5 phases is a matter of
how you write it up on the character at hand. The value it's worth
is assigned by the GM. Most GM's will assign it a value equivalent to
their interptretation of 'extra time' in the book. But in some cases a
diferent value may be assigned.
So, the issue is MOOT.
The only case where these things are not MOOT by default is
with advantages, since the book lacks an 'advantaged' advantage. So only
in those cases does an 'official' ruling have any concept of weight.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Atmospheric FTL
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 22:00:50 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> > I personnally think that they said FTL can not be used in the
> > atmosphere because anyone who us going that fast will realistically
> > disappear from one point and instantaneously appear at anthor. This
> > sounds to me like Teleporation.
> > If a player asked me for this effect I would have to tell him to buy
> > Teleportation. I think buying FTL usable in the atmosphere instead of
> > Teleporation is just a way to save points.
>
> I know I'm in a minority on this, but I've never liked the construction of
> Teleportation for rapid movement.
>
> While I'm on the topic of FTL and Teleport, I wish there were a way to
> interface the two. It's very difficult to build an interplanetary
> teleporter, and certainly more costly than it's worth. I suspect the
> original rules for Teleportation were based on Nightcrawler, and while
> options for increased distance since the third edition have made things a
> bit more flexible, long range teleports are still pretty expensive.
>
Tell me about it...
I wanted 'Detective Mao', a Chinese teleporter who works as a liason with
(insert world's US gov team) to do a daily commute from Beijing. It
came to about 80 points in *2 add ons... To make it cost justifiable I
had to tack on a lim of extra time up to an hour, as well as a few other
lims. It was still very expensive and so I have yet to add it on to the
character.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 17:15:47 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Metahuman Rights (was: [Fwd: Ha! I KNEW it!! Magic is
EVIL!!!])
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 12:30 PM 12/13/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> It seems to me that this whole thread is even more pathetic and
>irrelavent than if my post on "green people's rights" had been serious.
> We've been over this topic before, people. Far too often. It only gets
>acrimonious (in fact, it started that way this time), and it has
>*absolutely nothing* to do with Champions or the Hero System. (Whereas my
>"Green Rights" post could be taken by someone with a humorous bent, or with
>a thought toward creating an alien rights' group in his campaign.)
>
Okay. : )
Can we talk about that, then? I wasn't thinking "aliens" so much (there
are none in my game world), but I was thinking of metahuman (or mutant)
rights groups. I have "Equal Rights for the Genetically Different" but I
haven't come up with anything specific for them. I know that at least one
of the high-profile metahumans is supporting them, but I don't really have
an agenda for them, besides opposing them Metahuman Registration Bill as
unconstitutional. Any suggestions?
Thanks!
Jerry
ps - Bob, that Green thing... are you green? I ain't buyin' no book
written by no Greeny!
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 17:18:47 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: CHAR: KARZA DRONES
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 04:16 PM 12/13/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>>
>> > +2 SPEED, Only for Job related actions or to fire weapon.
>>
>> Arg. Am I the only one who thinks SPD 'only for X' should be outlawed in
the
>> 5th edition?
>
>Nope. I don't care for it either.
>
Are ya'll objecting because it's difficult to keep track of, or because it
can be abusive (*very* abusive, in some cases)? In the case of the sample
character, it had a base 2 SPD, and +2 SPD for whatever, so it would be
easier to keep track of...
I might let it in my game if it were like this (simple), and it wouldn't be
much of a Lim.
- Jerry
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 17:31:11 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Villian groups
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, John Stefanski wrote:
> Humor me on this one!
>
> I like to construct scenarios with touches of current events and or people
> twisted enough to fit into a four color genre. Has anyone put together a
> villain group based on the Spice Girls? You have five different
> personalities that could be used to create five different villains banded
> together to promote "Girl Power."
"That boy's not right!"
You of course, *have* heard Phil Spector's comment about the Spice Girls?
"Spice Girls videos are alot like porno films, except porno films have
better music."
Oww...
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 17:31:52 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Extra Time
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
>
> In our group, Extra Time: 1 Phase" means it requires a full Phase to
> "generate" the attack, during which time the character cannot do anything else
> (pick a lock, start a car, dictate notes, etc.).
That is how we envision and use it around here.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 17:33:32 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
> Since it seems that the majority of folks (onthis list, anyway) would like
> to see more cardboard minis, let me ask you this: Would you be willing to pay
> an extra $2 for a book that had them included?
Probably. Make sure that are of decent quality and of thick cardboard.
Making them an extension of the cover (like in Alien Enemies) will
probably result in counters that will be bent into uselessness in a very
short period of time.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 17:38:04 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: CHAR: KARZA DRONES
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
> >> > +2 SPEED, Only for Job related actions or to fire weapon.
> >>
> >> Arg. Am I the only one who thinks SPD 'only for X' should be outlawed in
> the 5th edition?
> >
> >Nope. I don't care for it either.
> >
> Are ya'll objecting because it's difficult to keep track of, or because it
> can be abusive (*very* abusive, in some cases)? In the case of the sample
> character, it had a base 2 SPD, and +2 SPD for whatever, so it would be
> easier to keep track of...
1 - it can be difficult to keep track of. Things like 2 SPD + 2 SPD to do
x (or 4 + 4) are easy. But what aboput a SPD 3 with a + 2 SPD only to do
'x'?
2 - it is very abusive.
3 - it really plays hell with things like getting Stunned and Recoveries.
> I might let it in my game if it were like this (simple), and it wouldn't be
> much of a Lim.
On the flip side, there is the problem of designing something like a
multi-headed creature (like a hydra). If I give it a 9 Speed (to
represent all those heads) then things live its over all moement rate,
Recoveries end END usage get out of hand. And if I kill a head, it still
keeps its old SPD.
But I still think '+x SPD only to do y' is abusive and shouldn't be
allowed.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 17:48:31 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: CHAR: KARZA DRONES
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 05:38 PM 12/13/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>> Are ya'll objecting because it's difficult to keep track of, or because it
>> can be abusive (*very* abusive, in some cases)? In the case of the sample
>> character, it had a base 2 SPD, and +2 SPD for whatever, so it would be
>> easier to keep track of...
>
>1 - it can be difficult to keep track of. Things like 2 SPD + 2 SPD to do
>x (or 4 + 4) are easy. But what aboput a SPD 3 with a + 2 SPD only to do
>'x'?
>
Yep. That's tricky. That's why I said 2 + 2 was okay... but I *would* shy
away from that other.
>2 - it is very abusive.
>
Exactly how? I would probably give a very light Lim. Maybe a -1/2 at
most. Could you illuminate me on this?
>3 - it really plays hell with things like getting Stunned and Recoveries.
>
But, if the extra SPD is only for Y (which doesn't include getting Stunned
or Recovering), I don't see the problem. I'd have them miss *that* Phase,
too.
>> I might let it in my game if it were like this (simple), and it wouldn't be
>> much of a Lim.
>
>On the flip side, there is the problem of designing something like a
>multi-headed creature (like a hydra). If I give it a 9 Speed (to
>represent all those heads) then things live its over all moement rate,
>Recoveries end END usage get out of hand. And if I kill a head, it still
>keeps its old SPD.
>
Yes, that's ugly. I never saw the Bestiary... did they do it like this? I
thought I had heard someone say it was multiple creatures, with being one
creature a SFX.
>But I still think '+x SPD only to do y' is abusive and shouldn't be
>allowed.
>
Fair enough. : ) Thanks for the response.
- Jerry
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 22:50:34 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> That brings up another question: What kind of illo would you folks like to
> see for the cover? A collage of different scenes? A comic-booky sort of illo
> (usually a fight scene)?
>
> One other note. Keep in mind that, primarily because of financial
> considerations, we are looking at printing the Hero System rules book
> separately, with Champions being a genre book. Champions would have the super
> power rules in there, as well as a *much* better treatment of the genre,
Major Mistake. The powers rules have many applications outside of
Super Powers. I think the Hero system rulebook should be the same size as
it was in 4th edition. IE, everything but the campaign and sourcebook stuff.
Else If I want to do psionics or magic I have to either buy the
Super Hero book, or deal with someone elses limited idea of what magic and
psionics are.
Otherwise I agree, The 'Super Hero Genre' Book should be seperate
from the rulebook. However the rulebook should be as complete as humanly
possible. In other words it should contain ALL 'official' rules.
Genre books should then focus on how to use those rules under a given
genre, rather than printing huge rules 'plugins' for magic, psionics, or
super powers...
I'd much rather read 200 pages of how to do the Super Genre than
50 pages of how to do the Super Genre with 150 pages of rules-add ons to
allow for power creation.
The basic rule book can be accepted at around 200-300 pages and
$25 to $30. I think you could fit all the actual rules into that size.
Use a font size like that used in the GURPS stuff.
> examples, no "official universe" inside (rather examples and notes on creating
> several different types, etc., but the Hero System "core" rules would be in
> the Hero System rules book.
>
Power Creation is a part of the 'core rules'. It allows the creation
of MUCH more than just Super Powers.
> In addition, future genre books would be published like the "new" Champions
> book, and we may even be able to publish revisions of older genre books
> (Fantasy Hero, anyone?).
Certainly, though if it contained a dumbed down version of the powers
rules designed to suit your interpretation of how magic should work you can
gaurantee it would end up in my Fuzion/AD&D pile. A pile in a box in my
storage closet...
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 22:52:45 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>
> Since it seems that the majority of folks (onthis list, anyway) would like
> to see more cardboard minis, let me ask you this: Would you be willing to pay
> an extra $2 for a book that had them included?
>
YES.
Stick em in every book with NPC's in it, and have one per NPC.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Villian groups
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 22:58:58 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
>
> Humor me on this one!
>
> I like to construct scenarios with touches of current events and or people
> twisted enough to fit into a four color genre. Has anyone put together a
> villain group based on the Spice Girls? You have five different
> personalities that could be used to create five different villains banded
> together to promote "Girl Power."
>
Neat idea. But I'd probably do it as a corporate Hero Team
designed to promote a particular British record label by claiming to
be a dumbed up version of feminism.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Cover to 5th Edition
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 23:02:46 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> That brings up another question: What kind of illo would you folks like to
> see for the cover? A collage of different scenes? A comic-booky sort of illo
> (usually a fight scene)?
>
Look at the old cover for GURPS 3rd edition. The one that had
pictures of characters in various genres. Got the point across very clearly.
(The current cover on the other hand, looks like a sci fi pic).
Something like that, only done better. Look at the picture on the
back of the Hero System rulebook, the one with the cast of characters all
from diferent genre's lined up together.
Once again, that done better.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 23:15:24 +0000 (GMT)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>
> On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
>
> > Since it seems that the majority of folks (onthis list, anyway) would like
> > to see more cardboard minis, let me ask you this: Would you be willing to pay
> > an extra $2 for a book that had them included?
>
> Probably. Make sure that are of decent quality and of thick cardboard.
> Making them an extension of the cover (like in Alien Enemies) will
> probably result in counters that will be bent into uselessness in a very
> short period of time.
>
Good point.
I'd be willing to pay the $2 only if they were of the kind of cardboard
that SJG used way back. Alien Enemies were a little too flimsy.
The V&V ones were ok only because they were flat counters. But flat counters
are boring.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 15:34:21 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Yet Another Power Problem...
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Reading through some of my TSR stuff, I came upon an interesting
spell which I thought would be good to convert to Fantasy Hero.
However, I'm having trouble working it out, and it's a broad enough
concept that a general mechanic is needed.
The spell, basically, creates a mouth with sharp pointy teeth on an
inanimate object, most usually a bag or sack. Thief reaches into bag,
gets hand chomped (call it a 1d6 HKA). How to do this as a spell?
Focus? Not really:The spell must be cast on an object, but the focus
is a handful of teeth. The bag isn't really a focus for the casting,
just a target.
Transform? The all-purpose catch all. I'd like to avoid it.
Independant? No, the spell expires after one bite, and the caster can
re-cast it multiple times without trouble.
Basically, I'm looking for a mechanic that gives a third party a one-
shot or charge-shot use of a power, with the actual mechanic for
creating that power as a seperate thing. That is, I need to gesture,
incant, and hold some teeth to give the 'bite' power to a bag, but
the bag doesn't need to gesture, incant, etc, to use it -- and the
'power' goes away under a set of conditions. Further, I don't think
such a temporary usage should require permenant expenditure of
character points with each use of the power-granting-power.
It looks like some kind of 'usable by others' is being called for
here, with one 'power' to grant the other power. Isn't there
something in Almanac I about this?
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X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 18:38:01 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Extra Time on a Triggered Power
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 05:18 PM 12/11/97 +0000, Guy Hoyle wrote:
>One of the characters in my campaign is using an INT Drain which
>takes 5 minutes to prepare, but it is also built with a Trigger, so
>that it can be delivered in combat; essentially, she has to inject
>a potion into someone for the drug to take effect.
>
Wouldn't this be illegal? She has prepared an attack, and she can't use
another attack without deep-sixing the preparations, right? Or does
Trigger bypass this? (It very well may.)
>Is anybody else as bugged by this as I am? I don't think that the
>Extra Time should be worth the full limitation in these
>circumstances. How do you handle injectible drugs in your campaigns?
>
I don't usually do drugs in my game. No one's asked yet. But a good
answer from someone else might lead me to develop some, or a villain based
around them...
- Jerry
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 17:59:16 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> << You can't use EB without the attack roll, and making the attack roll ends
> your
> phase.>>
>
> What about a warning shot? ;)
Well this would of course burn an action. You shot, but were
trying not to hit.
However, in the pre-combat time of combat, when it's just
beginning, a warning shot can signal a turn to combat and the start of
phase 12.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 18:59:30 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> Then just redo a lot of different genre books. Champions first,
> of course, but then Fantasy Hero, Star Hero, Cyberhero (that needs work),
> Danger International, Justice Inc, etc.
If all goes well, my Kazei Five book should provide some nice alternative
mechanics for cyberware and netrunning.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 18:01:24 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> One other note. Keep in mind that, primarily because of financial
> considerations, we are looking at printing the Hero System rules book
> separately, with Champions being a genre book. Champions would have the super
> power rules in there, as well as a *much* better treatment of the genre,
> examples, no "official universe" inside (rather examples and notes on creating
> several different types, etc., but the Hero System "core" rules would be in
> the Hero System rules book.
This is fine. This is exactly like it should be.
Then just redo a lot of different genre books. Champions first,
of course, but then Fantasy Hero, Star Hero, Cyberhero (that needs work),
Danger International, Justice Inc, etc.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 18:02:04 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> Since it seems that the majority of folks (onthis list, anyway) would like
> to see more cardboard minis, let me ask you this: Would you be willing to pay
> an extra $2 for a book that had them included?
Yup. If the quality was high enough.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 19:04:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: CHAR: KARZA DRONES
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
> >> Are ya'll objecting because it's difficult to keep track of, or because it
> >> can be abusive (*very* abusive, in some cases)? In the case of the sample
> >> character, it had a base 2 SPD, and +2 SPD for whatever, so it would be
> >> easier to keep track of...
> >
> >1 - it can be difficult to keep track of. Things like 2 SPD + 2 SPD to do
> >x (or 4 + 4) are easy. But what aboput a SPD 3 with a + 2 SPD only to do
> >'x'?
> >
> Yep. That's tricky. That's why I said 2 + 2 was okay... but I *would* shy
> away from that other.
>
> >2 - it is very abusive.
> >
> Exactly how? I would probably give a very light Lim. Maybe a -1/2 at
> most. Could you illuminate me on this?
Basically, the character is getting a cost break on something that isn't
very limiting. Sure, you can't recover or move during those phases, but
(usually) you can still attack. Not a real big limit.
Now, if a pilot had a 3 SPD with +2 SPD only while flying a plane (so he
could use an F-15 to it fullest qualities, that would be different.
> >3 - it really plays hell with things like getting Stunned and Recoveries.
> >
> But, if the extra SPD is only for Y (which doesn't include getting Stunned
> or Recovering), I don't see the problem. I'd have them miss *that* Phase,
> too.
That would need to be made clear.
> >> I might let it in my game if it were like this (simple), and it wouldn't be
> >> much of a Lim.
> >
> >On the flip side, there is the problem of designing something like a
> >multi-headed creature (like a hydra). If I give it a 9 Speed (to
> >represent all those heads) then things live its over all moement rate,
> >Recoveries end END usage get out of hand. And if I kill a head, it still
> >keeps its old SPD.
> >
> Yes, that's ugly. I never saw the Bestiary... did they do it like this? I
> thought I had heard someone say it was multiple creatures, with being one
> creature a SFX.
I also remember a lim like "looses SPD with head loss" on one hydra I saw.
> >But I still think '+x SPD only to do y' is abusive and shouldn't be
> >allowed.
> >
> Fair enough. : ) Thanks for the response.
I think my biggest argument against it is a simple gut-reaction of
'munchkinism'. Sure its valid, but not in my game.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 18:05:20 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> I'm all for the 5th ed. In addition to the various suggestions people have
> already made, I hope it includes either a "slipperiness" power or a
> revised Change Environment that can make an icy surface with combat
> effects. (My pet peeve.)
Yes. Definately. I think an expanded CE, perhaps the one from
HSA2, perhaps the one from the list here, should be included. Too many
things need this to exist correctly. Like (hugely) the slipperiness
power.
> If there are any extensive changes at all, I wouldn't mind seeing
> something like (but not exactly like) the "Incomplete Character" rules.
I don't. Not everyone would like the change, and it would make
most 4th edition stuff obsolete. Bad idea. No major changes means less
complaints.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 18:06:50 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: CHAR: KARZA DRONES
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> > > +2 SPEED, Only for Job related actions or to fire weapon.
> >
> > Arg. Am I the only one who thinks SPD 'only for X' should be outlawed in the
> > 5th edition?
>
> Nope. I don't care for it either.
That's fine, but it is a _valid_ construction. I'll never allow
it in my games, I wouldn't mind seeing a warning about it's problems, but
don't disallow it.
Heck, I'd like to see a discussion on SPD pointing out the major
problems and headaches with adjustment powers affecting SPD.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 18:09:40 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA/ Desol Super Dodge
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> This doesn't work smoothly. You end up with a finite amount of damage
> capacity, you have to pay a fortune to ignore STUN and BODY from both
> energy and physical attacks, and you have to pay a fortune or for some
> reason the ghost can't pass through high DEF materials. And then you have
> to set things up so that you can't attack while you're tunneling, unless
> somebody else is tunneling just like you, etc. Whatever its flaws,
> Desolidification is necessary as a power.
True. I think Affects Desol needs to go, however.
> > And like I said, this is almost fine. It does, however, bring up
> > the possibility of the lucky shot. And some of the SFX just don't allow
> > for the lucky shot.
>
> It isn't that hard to reduce *any* chance of hitting to a 3. Yes, there
> is a chance of an occasional 3 being rolled, but only if the GM insists
> on their being attack rolls. If I were a GM who agreed to letting a player
> be unhittable, I'd let him build a 30 DCV or so with levels, then ignore
> the attack roll altogether.
>
> This isn't exactly strict adherence to the rules, of course, but in this
> case you're postulating SFX which run exactly counter to the rules'
> insistence that there can *always* be a lucky shot. I'd consider a
> campaign which includes unhittable dodges to be a genre requiring some
> house rules, like "3 doesn't always hit."
This is fine, but it is house rules. My construction is
Hero-Legal, if not liked by everyone. I'll usually just take the DCV mods
and have a chance of being hit to go with.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 18:23:22 -0600
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net
Organization: Redbow Antiques
Subject: Re: Yet Another Power Problem...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Lizard wrote:
>
> Reading through some of my TSR stuff, I came upon an interesting
> spell which I thought would be good to convert to Fantasy Hero.
> However, I'm having trouble working it out, and it's a broad enough
> concept that a general mechanic is needed.
>
> The spell, basically, creates a mouth with sharp pointy teeth on an
> inanimate object, most usually a bag or sack. Thief reaches into bag,
> gets hand chomped (call it a 1d6 HKA). How to do this as a spell?
I don't know how others would do it, but I would require the mage to
cast the spell on the item, say a small pouch.
The small pouch would then become a magical item with the following:
1d6 HKA Damage shield, Trigger: When someone other than owner reaches
into the pouch. 1 Charge, Hard to recover (requires re-casting of
spell).
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 16:24:10 -0800
From: mcallahan <mcallahan@home.com>
Reply-To: mcallahan@home.com
Subject: Side Bars, a dissenting view
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
I've seen to many products that have side bars with nothing in them for
page after page. It ends up looking like a college term paper formatting
trick to get a higher page count with less actual text. They do, however
make a nice place to put art so it doesn't interfere with the flow of
the text
Web Page created by Text2Web v1.3.6 by Dev Virdi
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Date: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 01:51 PM