Week Ending December 20, 1997
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Villian groups
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:44:55 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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>
> can anyone out there spell 'gestalt'?
>
Hmm.
There's one for the 'fifth edition'. A 'Combine' Power.
Two or more people with this power can combine into a greater whole.
Unless it's better just doing in reverse with multiform and duplication...
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Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 19:45:55 -0500
From: "C. Badger" <wbandsis@westco.net>
Subject: Re: Crossover Adventures
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At 09:34 12/13/97 -0500, Jamie Rosen wrote:
>> I think that a book of crossover adventure with *several* universes would be
>>neat. CU, NMU, and a few others I could think of would be cool. Maybe that' an
>>idea -- a book of several such adventures, with conversions for each
>>applicable gaming system. I don't see that the licensing would be too
>>difficult (given our past success with licensing).
>>
>> So let me ask you, what universes would *you* folks like to see in such a
>>product? Mind you, this would be a one-time product, not an ongoing series...
>
>Heck, let's go crazy here:
>
>Marvel (pref. the MU as it was a few years back, not now)
>DC
>Amalgam?
>SA
>Champs.
>Maybe Dark Horse' Comics Greatest World
>Marvel's New Universe (*I* liked it)
Also Tangent.
Another would be the one that First Comics comic Grimjack. Had where the
city was called Cynosure or something close to it. It was supposed to be the
crossroads of the multiverse.....
-----
C. Badger
My Feet hurt and I've forgotten how to dance.
Londo
Babylon 5
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 19:47:06 EST
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
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In a message dated 97-12-13 19:15:00 EST, you write:
<< GS> "To use an Energy Blast, the character states his target and makes an
GS> Attack Roll." (HSR p.65)
So, we have a specific case of Energy Blast always reqiring an attack roll.
How about RKA, Flash, etc.,?
What about the classic schtick of firing one's six-shooter in the air to
get everyone's attention? Is that an attack? If so, what is the target?
What gets hit by this attack.
There is no target. Westerns ignore the fact that the bullet will
eventually come back down as fast as it was fired up. There is no target,
there is no DCV, there is no attack roll.
GS> "An Instant Power lasts just long enough for the character using the
GS> power to make an Attack Roll." (HSR p.52)
I do not dispute this, nor does it contradict me when I reiterate the BBB
that activation of a power is a 0-phase action. Use of a power or powers
to make an attack is a half-phase attack action -- technically it is the
act of making the attack, not the use of the power, that constitutes the
attack action. You activate the Energy Blast as a 0-phase action, and use
it in an attack as a half-phase action. The EB ceases to exist at the end
of the attack action. Standard Champions combat timing.
The dispute is whether or not an Energy Blast and Flash activated as
0-phase actions may be used as a single half-phase attack action. If they
may with a limitation then they should without that limitation, because a
limitation is *supposed* to restrict the usefulness of a power.
>>
The Limitation comes from the fact that you can't use the Limited Linked Power
by itself... in fact, you have no control over that one Power anymore... it's
just along for the ride. That is worth the price of the Limitation simply
because there will be times that you would wish to use *only* the Limited
Power by itself, and not the Power it is Linked to, but you can't. In the
example of the EB and a Linked Flash, there would be many times you would only
wish to blind an opponent, not damage him/her also with the EB. The Linked
Limitation has therefore put you at a disadvantage. Now, GMs must closely
monitor characters with the Linked Disad, so they don't simply buy another
Flash. If that's the case, then the Linked Flash has lost it's Limitation
value, and deserves no points.
'Lynx
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
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>>>>> "AJ" == Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> writes:
AJ> Actually, it does; its just that the target of an aid ordinarily
AJ> _wants_ to be hit, and thus pending extreme circumstances the attack
AJ> roll can be assumed to be successful.
An attack roll is part of the process of making an attack. If you do not
roll it, you have not made an attack.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA/ Desol Super Dodge
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
>> Right there we have a contradiction between the desired effect -- being
>> unhittable -- and the game mechanics.
TRG> Not a valid agument, Rat.
Bullshit, it is an argument based entirely on special effects.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Extra Time on a Triggered Power
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>>>>> "g" == ghoyle1 <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> writes:
g> Is anybody else as bugged by this as I am? I don't think that the
g> Extra Time should be worth the full limitation in these
g> circumstances. How do you handle injectible drugs in your campaigns?
Remember: a limitation that does not limit the character is worth no bonus.
Also remember: that Extra Time limitation means that she cannot prepare her
formula during combat, so she will have an extremely limited supply.
Personally, I would use Charges instead of Extra Time.
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X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 17:21:53 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Sidebars
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personally I dont like sidebars, they are annoying tricks, in my opinion,
put what you need in the text... I just think you need lots of art in your
books, preferably by me! LOL
----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 20:23:38 -0500 (EST)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Extra Time on a Triggered Power
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>>One of the characters in my campaign is using an INT Drain which
>>takes 5 minutes to prepare, but it is also built with a Trigger, so
>>that it can be delivered in combat; essentially, she has to inject
>>a potion into someone for the drug to take effect.
>>
>Wouldn't this be illegal? She has prepared an attack, and she can't use
>another attack without deep-sixing the preparations, right? Or does
>Trigger bypass this? (It very well may.)
It would. Though this method should be bought as a Delayed Effect, not a
Trigger, if you're going to use it in combat. Trigger should be a
victim-activated thing.
>
>>Is anybody else as bugged by this as I am? I don't think that the
>>Extra Time should be worth the full limitation in these
>>circumstances. How do you handle injectible drugs in your campaigns?
You can't go pro-rating limitations based on the other limitations or
advantages involved. Why not? Well, for one thing, the more limitations you
pile on a power, the less point savings is garnered from each limitation.
For example, on a 60 AP power, a -1/2 limitation gives you a 20 point
savings. But TWO -1/2 limitations only give a 15 point limitation each. If
the two limitations are not 'inherently the same thing', you shouldn't lower
the value of them.
What do I mean by 'Inherently the same thing'? Well, take for example the
following two limitations, costed as if they were in two different powers
(note that the limitations given are IMHO):
Only in Antarctica (-1, unless you do lots of adventuring in Antarctica)
Only in Temperatures below 5 degrees Centigrade (-3/4)
Now, considering that most of the time, most of Antarctica is at or below 5
degrees C, The second limitation isn't nearly worth as much when the two are
combined (i.e. if you're in Antarctica, you can pretty much guarantee
satisfying the other). If you did combine the two limitations in a single
power, I'd cost it out like this:
Only in Antarctica (-1)
Only in Temps below 5 degrees C (-1/4)
BUT, this sort of reasoning doesn't apply to most limitations. Extra Time is
not 'worth less' when applied to a Triggered power, nor is 'Requires a
Pentagram' on an Extra Time power. As long as the conditions of each
limitation can be considered to be separate from the other lims and
advantages, there's no reason to change their values.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 20:23:42 -0500 (EST)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: SPD Adjustment, Shapeshift gripes
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>> > Arg. Am I the only one who thinks SPD 'only for X' should be outlawed in
>> > the 5th edition?
>> Nope. I don't care for it either.
> Heck, I'd like to see a discussion on SPD pointing out the major
>problems and headaches with adjustment powers affecting SPD.
Indeed. Personally, I don't allow them, after seeing what my SPD draining
hero could do with them. Ick. They're just so 'messy' and require extra
'figure-outing' time that it's not worth having them - Champs combat takes
enough time as it is without people going around making lots of SPD changes.
I even prefer Multiform characters to construct 'easy' SPD arrangements,
like 3/6 or 2/4, or do their changing on Phase 12 (but at least you can
pre-calculate where multiform/OIHID characters are involved). Heck, I
typically prefer Shapeshift/OIHID constructs to Multiform anyways...
Speaking of Shapeshift, should a 5th edition rear its head, I'd like to see
the matter addressed of a _limited_, defined number of forms. For example,
as it stands you get 1 form for 10 points, a 'bunch' of forms for 20 points,
and 'any' form for 30 points. What if I only want 2 forms? (though I'd
suggest that it go: 10 points for the first form, +2 points per additional
form up to 4 additional forms, and after that you just blow the wad and buy
the 20 point level.)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 02:07:03 +0000
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: CHAR: KARZA DRONES
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John and Ron Prins wrote:
>
> >KARZA'S DRONE PEOPLE
> >
> > 18 STR DF: Pretty/Handsome, but slack
> > 11 DEX DF: Serial Number Tattoos
> > 11 CON DF: Human, unless examined at Genetic Level
>
> <rant mode: ON>
>
> Excuse me, but how could this be in any way _worth_ points in Champions? I
> mean, if there's only _one_, very specific, not-likely-to-be-used method of
> discerning that they're 'not human', how is this a 'distinctive feature'?
> Sure, it's an interesting little biological quirk, but it's about a
> distinctive a feature as DF: Diabetic or DF: Sterile. It's not even worth a
> piddling 5 points, IMHO.
>
> <rant mode: OFF>
Good rant. I'd like to add my own observation.
Egyptoid: Please put your costs down for disads and the like. I'm curious what
you consider to
be the fair costs.
>
> > +2 SPEED, Only for Job related actions or to fire weapon.
>
> Arg. Am I the only one who thinks SPD 'only for X' should be outlawed in the
> 5th edition?
Maybe not outlawed, but I hate the casual use of it.
>
> > Ultravision
>
> You mean Ultraviolet Vision?
Or how about Ultra-violent vision?
-Mark
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 02:16:34 +0000
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
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GoldRushG wrote:
>
> << You can't use EB without the attack roll, and making the attack roll ends
> your
> phase.>>
>
> What about a warning shot? ;)
>
> Mark @ GRG
As a house rule, I'd allow the warning shot to not take anytime, but the End
cost or charge would
be spent. There are times when following the letter of the rules can be a
pain.
-Mark
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 12:39:57 +1000
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Greetings
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At 04:37 AM 12/13/97 +0000, Brian Wong wrote:
>> And a request: a full-figure 'posed shot' of the main heroes/villians/npcs. I
>> don't know about anyone else, but I like to scan in the pictures, color them and
>> print them out. Then, when it comes time for the PCs to encounter them, I can
>> SHOW them what the person they're seeing looks like. It's alot easier, and more
>> fun for the players than just doing the standard 'this one is a woman with
>> blonde hair in a skimpy red costume'.
>>
> One cool thing Hero/ICE did once was with "Zodiac Conspiracy". On a page
>with no stats or anything were pics of the NPC's. This way I could simply
>show that page without some keen player noting the *2 Vuln to Ice Cream in the
>disads section...
>
yes! the zodiac pages rules. . .i even meade them into a poster *g*
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 22:28:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA/ Desol Super Dodge
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On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
> > This doesn't work smoothly. You end up with a finite amount of damage
> > capacity, you have to pay a fortune to ignore STUN and BODY from both
> > energy and physical attacks, and you have to pay a fortune or for some
> > reason the ghost can't pass through high DEF materials. And then you have
> > to set things up so that you can't attack while you're tunneling, unless
> > somebody else is tunneling just like you, etc. Whatever its flaws,
> > Desolidification is necessary as a power.
>
> True. I think Affects Desol needs to go, however.
>
I agree. Rather than a generic +1/2 Advantage that for some reason affects
any desolid character, regardless of special effect, I'd have a bunch of
+1/4 Advantages like Affects Ghosts/Spirits, Affects Dimensional Shifted,
Affects Temporally Displaced, etc. Actually, I think I'd still call it one
advantage, but require SFX to be specified in order to determine
applicability.
I might also do something similar for Hardened. Why should titanium steel
walls stop a dimension walking teleporter?
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 14:16:21 +1000
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Champions5th Edition- ha
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At 05:51 AM 12/13/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> Opal has a fix for Hand Attack which most of the folks on the list like.
> (I know Bill and I both do, but he and I tend to agree on things anyway.)
> Hey Opal! Do you mind posting that again, for Mark? :-]
ummm, this isn't that 'clearly seperate from the body' thang is it. . .?
Okay. . . it's time for everyone to post their thingies on ha. . . . .
I actually worked out a 5 pt per d6 idea , where the advantage of ha
is that str dice added *automatically* get the benifits of
advantages (and lmitations) placed on the ha power , BUT only
like hka- limited to one dice of str damage per dice of ha damage
. . .
From: ErolB1 <ErolB1@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 23:40:10 EST
Subject: Re: Yet Another Power Problem...
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In a message dated 97-12-13 21:54:25 EST, lizard wrote:
> Basically, I'm looking for a mechanic that gives a third party a one-
> shot or charge-shot use of a power, with the actual mechanic for
> creating that power as a seperate thing. That is, I need to gesture,
> incant, and hold some teeth to give the 'bite' power to a bag, but
> the bag doesn't need to gesture, incant, etc, to use it -- and the
> 'power' goes away under a set of conditions. Further, I don't think
> such a temporary usage should require permenant expenditure of
> character points with each use of the power-granting-power.
>
> It looks like some kind of 'usable by others' is being called for
> here, with one 'power' to grant the other power. Isn't there
> something in Almanac I about this?
Trigger. BBB p 97. The example they give there is of a magical trap: An area-
effect Entangle on a room in a wizard's tower. "If a visible thief tries to
enter the room, then the Entangle will be set off, likely trapping him until
Arkelos [the wizard] returns."
Erol K. Bayburt
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 15:05:08 +1000
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
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At 03:17 PM 12/13/97 -0500, GoldRushG wrote:
> One other note. Keep in mind that, primarily because of financial
>considerations, we are looking at printing the Hero System rules book
>separately, with Champions being a genre book. Champions would have the super
>power rules in there, as well as a *much* better treatment of the genre,
>examples, no "official universe" inside (rather examples and notes on creating
>several different types, etc., but the Hero System "core" rules would be in
>the Hero System rules book.
>
um. . there are no 'super hero' rules. there's just heroic/superheroic characters.
> I realize this may not be a popular decision, and I'm willing to hear well
>reasoned discussion for or against the idea. But please consider that
>reprinting the BBB as it is now would cost *us* a lot of money, and the retail
>price would likely be $40 or more (and that for a softcover with no
>software!). We want folks to buy it, and the only way to keep the prices
>reasonable is to limit some of the content. This seems the most logical way to
>do that.
>
genre books are fine, but *please do not* split up the rules in them. . .
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:05:57 EST
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
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<< Small change that I've always liked: allowing Acrobatics to be used
as complementary to Breakfall. Makes Acrobatics much more useful.>>
Definitely! Complimentary Skills are always a good thing and if logical
should always be allowed by the GM, IMO. One of the new skills I've added to
Law & Order is "KS: Patrol Area" (not a "new" skill, really), which is a
Complimentary Skill to Combat Driving during pursuits (i.e., car chases). It
makes sense; knowing your area well makes it easier to avoid those potholes,
know when hairpin turns are coming up, etc.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:06:00 EST
Subject: PART
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<< Well, that's nice. Now what the heck is "PART"?:)>>
PART stands for the Paranormal Alert Response Team, San Angelo PD's
specialized team of officers who respond to incidents involving supers. They
are primarily made up of SWAT and ex-SWAT members, although they are sorely
out-classed in the core book. In the PART Sourcebook, we're planning to give
them a federal "DOJ grant," and they'll be using those funds to buy newer,
better armor, gadgets, weapons, vehicles, etc.
The supplement will also include some new villains (from the "PART case
files"), a few new skills, some tips on playing and GMing PART adventures,
creating PART PCs (in case some folks go for that sort of thing), PART tactics
(just how *do* they capture and transport those supervillains?), some PART-
based adventures, NPC write-ups of PART personnel, and so on.
We'll be uploading an illo of a standard PART member when we update the web
pages.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:06:02 EST
Subject: Kurt's comments
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<< well, keep in mind the comments made in the UNDERGROUND game. . .>>
And what would those be?
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:06:05 EST
Subject: Re: Greetings
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<< Hmmm, any plans to go overseas? Australia, maybe? *g* I expect it'd
be quite a stretch. .. . .>>
Not much of a stretch at all. If an Australian distributor would pout in an
order for products, we'd fill it.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:06:08 EST
Subject: Re: Yet Another Power Problem...
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< Thief reaches into bag, gets hand chomped (call it a 1d6 HKA). How to do
this as a spell? >>
1d6 HKA, Indirect, Persistent, Trigger?
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:06:12 EST
Subject: Re: Greetings
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< The other comment is "No more hard covers" In my group we have 5 copies of
the BBB all 5 have fallen apart. >>
That was the fault f the printer. The reprinting of the BBB in "Champions
Deluxe" has a much higher quality stitch, "textbook"-style binding. Mine has
not fallen apart. Actually, none of the 1,000 or so copies I have have fallen
apart. <LOL> No complaints from distributors or customers, either.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:06:17 EST
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< Yup. If the quality was high enough. >>
You're not getting off the hook that easy, you can-of-worms-opener, you! :D
Just how do you define "high enough" quality?
Mark @ GRG
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 15:09:30 +1000
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Villian groups
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At 03:26 PM 12/13/97 -0600, John Stefanski wrote:
>Humor me on this one!
>
>I like to construct scenarios with touches of current events and or people
>twisted enough to fit into a four color genre. Has anyone put together a
>villain group based on the Spice Girls? You have five different
>personalities that could be used to create five different villains banded
>together to promote "Girl Power."
>
can anyone out there spell 'gestalt'?
Or as they put it on australian radio. ..
"I AM EVIL SPICE!"
*lol*
>
From: "Sean Pavlish" <pavlish@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA/ Desol Super Dodge
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:10:08 -0500
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> Hmm.. a character that uses Desolidification, with Totally Invisible power
>effects... with the special effect of "awesome Zen-like martial arts ability
>to avoid blows" or some such (a la Remo Williams, or legendary ninja
>abilities, etc). Too wild? Too GROSS?
>
> Mark @ GRG
A friend of mine ran a campaign with an NPC with that exact power. The guys
that played definately had a very difficult time with it in the run and the GM
had a difficult time dodging things after...(when they figured it out) :)
Sean
From: "Sean Pavlish" <pavlish@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA/ Desol Super Dodge
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:10:08 -0500
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> Hmm.. a character that uses Desolidification, with Totally Invisible power
>effects... with the special effect of "awesome Zen-like martial arts ability
>to avoid blows" or some such (a la Remo Williams, or legendary ninja
>abilities, etc). Too wild? Too GROSS?
>
> Mark @ GRG
A friend of mine ran a campaign with an NPC with that exact power. The guys
that played definately had a very difficult time with it in the run and the GM
had a difficult time dodging things after...(when they figured it out) :)
Sean
From: "Sean Pavlish" <pavlish@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:17:36 -0500
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>The other comment is "No more hard covers" In my group we have 5 copies of
>the BBB all 5 have fallen apart.
>
>Juat a general question to the list, did that happen to everyone?
>
Right down the middle. The spines of the books from various RPG companies
just don't seem to hack it anymore... What do they do... Look for the
cheapest glue out there on the market?
Sean
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:18:45 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes
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On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
> << Yup. If the quality was high enough. >>
>
> You're not getting off the hook that easy, you can-of-worms-opener, you! :D
>
> Just how do you define "high enough" quality?
The cardboard heroes painted by Jeff Dee and Denis Loubet were high
quality illos. The SJ Games dragon counters were okay. The Japan set
werte pretty good. The Alien Enemies set didn't look so hot. The
Shadowrun figurtes that came with the GM screen are a mixed bag. Some
look really cool and some look junky. There are also a bit samll, making
it hard to see what the figure is (tthey are also a bit muddy).
The Streetfighter counters are all pretty well done, except they don't
have a front and a back, just two fronts. It's nice to have a front and
back view of everything.
(I have (or had) all the SJG cardboard heoes in 25mm. I also have
Shadowrun and Streetfighter counters as well as the old Autoduel Champions
counters. Love the things!)
It would also be nice to see more than just supers. SJG was talking about
SF counters and all that before stopping production.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:22:43 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: PART
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On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
> << Well, that's nice. Now what the heck is "PART"?:)>>
>
> PART stands for the Paranormal Alert Response Team,
Hahaha... way back from 1990-95, when I ran my "Justice Alliance" game,
we had PaCT. The "Paranormal Containment Team".
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 15:28:11 +1000
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Greetings
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
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At 12:06 AM 12/14/97 -0500, GoldRushG wrote:
><< Hmmm, any plans to go overseas? Australia, maybe? *g* I expect it'd
>be quite a stretch. .. . .>>
>
> Not much of a stretch at all. If an Australian distributor would pout in an
>order for products, we'd fill it.
>
> Mark @ GRG
>
hmm, i was thinkin more along the lines of an airdrop? *lol*
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 15:31:10 +1000
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Kurt's comments
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At 12:06 AM 12/14/97 -0500, GoldRushG wrote:
><< well, keep in mind the comments made in the UNDERGROUND game. . .>>
>
> And what would those be?
>
> Mark @ GRG
>
Well, basically i'd ask us all to recognise the difference
between genuine heros who can make a difference(even in a
gritty setting) and joke-heros who don't really stand a
chance. . . ..
From: "Sean Pavlish" <pavlish@erols.com>
Cc: <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: It's Not Easy Being Green
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:36:49 -0500
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>I think Bob's been working too hard on TUSV lately.
>
I'll second that... Bob, take a day off... Take two...
LOL
Sean
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:51:58 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: It's Not Easy Being Green
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At 09:00 AM 12/13/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
Well, he wrote a bunch of stuff about Greenies.
I encourage you, sir, to look at the thread entitled "Spiderman and the
color green" on the rec.arts.comics.marvel.universe newsgroup. If anyone's
interested, that is...
- Jerry
Comic geek extraordinaire, I suppose...
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: Velocity and Damage
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 01:09:54 -0500
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> >knowledgeable who can criticize or correct this approach. For
example,
> >applying this method to falling damage doesn't come close to
producing the
> >recommended 30d6 damage for a terminal velocity skydive sans
parachute, so
> >some modifications (i.e. kludges) would be in order for the true
realism
> >freaks.
>
> IMO, the 30d6 number is a wee bit overrated compared to the rest of
the
> system. 30 BODY is enough to distintegrate a normal; given a
normal's
> survivability in just about every other aspect of the system, I'd
argue
> that a consistent velocity damage rule which had terminal velocity
doing
> less damage was not necessarily broken.
>
> Geoff Speare
>
Here's my take on falling damage. The velocity of a falling body is
equal to the initial velocity, plus acceleration due to gravity
(about 10 m/sec in Earth's gravity well) multiplied by the time of
fall. Assuming the initial velocity for a skydive is zero, the
simple formula is v = g * t. The distance fallen, in simple form, is
equal to one-half acceleration multiplied by time squared, or d = 0.5
* g * t^2.
Terminal Velocity for a falling human typically ranges from 50 m/sec
to 70 m/sec for a skydive, depending on the height of the fall and
the way the body falls. Here are some sample numbers for the time of
fall, distance fallen, velocity of body, kinetic energy of 100 kg
body falling at a given velocity, and damage dice. I assume air
resistance is negligible up until the time terminal velocity is
reached, at which point the body no longer accelerates and falls with
constant velocity. Actually, air resistance increases the time it
takes to reach terminal velocity. A real skydiver falls longer and
farther before reaching terminal velocity.
Time Distance Velocity Kinetic Energy Damage Dice
(seconds) (meters) (m/sec) (joules)
.5 1 5 1,200 5d6
1.0 5 10 5,000 7d6
1.5 10 15 10,000 9d6
2.0 20 20 20,000 10d6
2.5 30 25 30,000 10d6
3.0 45 30 45,000 11d6
3.5 60 35 60,000 11d6
4.0 80 40 75,000 12d6
4.5 100 45 100,000 12d6
5.0 125 50 120,000 12d6
6.0 180 60 180,000 13d6
7.0 250 70 240,000 13d6
The damage doesn't seem great enough for a high fall. Even a healthy
normal stands a fair chance of walking away, something very rare in
the real world. The GM could rule that certain forms of
weapon-stopping armor don't help much in a high fall, while the
impressive PD of a professional boxer also isn't meant to suck up the
damage of a skydive. Aside from arguments with the players, it still
suffers the fault of not going far enough to make high falls deadly.
An alternate tack is not to treat the damage as general, but to use
the Hit Location table and treat the fall as specific damage to
particular body areas, dividing the damage energy among two or three
or four body areas. Instead of suffering 100,000 joules or 12d6
general damage, the skydiver suffers 50,000 joules or 11d6 damage to
two separate locations, or even 25,000 joules or 10d6 damage to four
separate areas, and apply the Impairing and Disabling rules. Yes,
the fallen hero survives, but now he has two shattered legs, broken
ribs with internal bleeding, and a left arm so twisted in would make
Gumby gag.
Any other suggested solutions?
Len Carpenter
redlion@early.com
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:22:23 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editi
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 01:25 AM 12/14/97 -0800, Opal wrote:
>b> Opal has a fix for Hand Attack which most of the folks on the list
>b> like. (I know Bill and I both do, but he and I tend to agree on things
>b> anyway.)
>
>Now if Rat and Vox and Tim Gilberg all liked it... (no wait, thats
>the coming Apocolypse!)
Don't duck and cover just yet. :^| To begin with, the only thing really
wrong with the original HA isn't really something wrong with HA: its price.
HA costs 3 pts. because 1d6 worth of STR cost 5 points. One is left with
either the option of raising STR's cost, or living with HA.
The trouble is, HA is NOT the normal-damage equivalent of HKA. There's no
need for such a power (a normal damage power that lets you add STR), because
the paradigm shifts for normal damage -- STR is not added to HA, HA is added
to STR, and that's the way it should be: /STR/ is the equivalent of HKA (you
can use combat maneuvers with just STR, for example).
> Though it cannot be 'spread' in the manner of an Energy
>Blast, an HA can be manipulated to improve OCV at the price of
>damage. Each 1d6 of damage sacrificed gives a +1 OCV. Since an
>HA - even when not focused - is assumed to be somewhat separate
>from the character using it, it can be used to Block an
>opponent's attack.
This is where I have the real problem: exactly why are HA's "assumed to be
somewhat separate from the character using it"? The two most common SFX
besides weapons (i.e. Focus) that I've seen HA used for in the past are
superspeed punches and superdense skin. Neither is separate from the
character in any fashion, and it seems like a far easier approach to buy OCV
bonuses with combat levels in addition to HA damage than to box them
together and force players to limit them out.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:22:25 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Open Apology
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Useful Tip: Never, ever answer mail while under the influence of sleep
deprivation.
I'd like to apologize to the list for a major blunder o' mine. Even as I
was typing away to answer Kev's "fundamentalist voice" message, my brain is
thinking "I'm so clever, I'm making a private response." Only, of course, I
sent it to the list anyways because my mind was futzing up which addresses
went on which messages.
If you feel you really have to flame me for opening up a religious debate on
the list, go right ahead -- I deserve it (*sigh*). But at least know that I
realize I did make a mistake, and I'm sorry for it. The only religious
arguments that belong on this list are Linked debates (*duck*).
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:22:27 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
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At 10:45 AM 12/14/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>I would not call Chris Cloutier's art mediocre. It is certainly a lot
>more dynamic and creative than Mark Williams stuff ever was (that was
>mediocre), and if spends some time on the peice it can turn out excellent.
>I still say that Madame Moonlight has one of the best costume designs in
>all of the Champions books.
>
>I think Chris's only real drawback is his stuff may be a touch too
>'cartoony' for most books.
Yes, double underline the word "most". That is a MAJOR drawback, and
probably what leads it to be classed "mediocre".
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com>
Subject: TUSV and Energy Conversions
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 01:39:19 -0500
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>>Here's another take on a previous TUSV thread on the damage caused by a
>>moving vehicle hitting a building.
>>
>>To get a better grasp on the nature of damage energy, a simple guideline
I
>>adopted some time ago was to treat 1 DC as roughly equal to 50 joules of
>>energy. I read somewhere that a typical punch is in the 25-100 joule
>>range, so this seemed reasonable. For every additional DC, the energy
>>involved doubles--a 2d6 punch is about 100 joules, a 3d6 kick about 200
>>joules, and so on. This neatly follows the same numbers in the
>>progression of the doubling of lift mass with increasing STR.
>
>Say, you wouldn't happen to have handy the conversions for joules into,
>say, degrees of heat or ampres of electricity and such, would you?
>
So Bob Greenwade asks. Gimme a minute while I dig out my old college
physics text.
The kilocalorie (or kcal, which is the same as the food Calorie, which is
actually 1,000 calories) is equal to 4,187 joules of mechanical energy. 1
calorie will raise 1 gm of water from 14.5 to 15.5 degrees Celsius. So
4,187 J of mechanical energy will raise the temperature of 1 kg of water
by 1 degree Celsius, just as will 1,000 cal.
>From there, you can translate 1 DC into 50 J * (1,000 cal/4,187 J) = 12
calories of heat energy. Call it 10 calories for a nice, round number. A
12d6 EB of heat energy packs about 100 kJ or 20 kcal. A 24d6 EB packs 400
mJ or 80,000 kcal, enough energy to turn 100 kg of room-temperature water
into vapor, even when you factor in the heat of vaporization for water,
539 kcal/kg. That's enough energy to instantly vaporize a normal human.
I suppose you could call a cold-based energy attack one that drains a
comparable amount of heat energy from a target. A 24d6 cold ray that
drains 80,000 kcal from that same human would leave him just as dead.
(Note that the heat of fusion of water is only 80 kcal/kg, so that same
amount of cold energy could freeze considerably more than 100 kg of water,
though that's really a Transformation Attack.)
Translating heat energy into degrees of temperature gets tricky.
Substances differ in the quantity of heat needed to produce a given rise
in temperature in a given mass. The ratio of the amount of heat energy
delta-Q supplied to a body to its corresponding temperature rise delta-T
is the body heat's capacity C, or C = delta-Q/delta-T.
The specific heat c, or heat capacity per unit mass of a body, is a
characteristic of the material of which the body is composed. Specific
heat c = delta-Q/(m * delta-T). At 20 degrees Celsius and 1.0 atm of
pressure, water has a specific heat of 1.00 cal/(gm*degree Celsius). The
specific heat of aluminum is 0.215, copper 0.092, and lead 0.031.
Generally, the greater an element's atomic weight, the lower its specific
heat.
Knowing the specific heat, the current temperature, the melting/freezing
point of a given material, and the material's heat of vaporization/fusion,
you can calculate how much heat/cold energy is required to melt an iron
golem or turn a liquid-metal Terminator 2-type cyborg into a popsicle.
And there are still the flash or ignition points of flammable materials to
be considered. All very messy.
To easily translate damage dice into degrees of temperature, you have to
choose a standard material and a standard unit of mass. Suppose you pick
water, the basic material of life. Water can store a lot of heat, so
temperature figures for damage dice don't sound so impressive. Treat BODY
as the standard unit of mass, and you have to choose between living or
unliving matter, a choice between 1 BODY equals 200 gm or 1 BODY equals
1.6 kg, a choice that changes temperature figures by a factor of eight.
I'm inclined to pick some generic form of steel as the standard material,
since how well a hero can blast through armor seems to be the true way to
measure a character's mettle (yes, pun intended). That gives a specific
heat in the range of 0.1. I personally think the BODY figures for
unliving matter to be too low, save for somewhat inelastic and brittle
materials, so I'd use the mass figure for living matter and vehicles.
1d6 of energy is 10 calories, which would raise 200 gm of a material with
a specific heat of 0.1 by about 0.5 degrees Celsius. A 12d6 attack would
raise that 1 BODY of metal by 1,000 degrees, and a 24d6 attack by four
million degrees. By way of comparison, the sun's surface is about 6,000
degrees (15 DC), the sun's core 15 million degrees (26 DC), and the center
of an H-bomb explosion exceeds 300 million degrees (31 DC).
Now, for electricity. Watts of power are defined as joules of energy
expended per second. (1 horsepower equals 746 watts.) The applicable
equations for power, voltage, current, and resistance are, thanks to Mr.
Joule, P = V * i, P =
V^2/R, and P = i^2 * R. If you're dealing with 120 volt juice from an
American outlet, and you know the current amperage, you know how many
joules of energy the character suffers per second of contact. Translating
dice of damage into amps depends on knowing one of the other values in the
equations, and on the time of exposure to the current. I suppose that
knowing the typical electrical resistance of human flesh--which I
don't--would give a crude way of estimating amps suffered by a character
for a given power in watts.
As one measure of comparison, the energy of rare "positive giant"
lightning strikes has been measured as high as three billion joules (27 DC
of electrical energy) with temperatures reaching 30,000 degrees Celsius
(17 DC of heat energy). I doubt that Storm can summon lightning bolts of
such fury without a lengthy prep, though Thor certainly could.
Now, a challenge for some real science wizards. Find a way to
conveniently relate dice of damage into units of pressure. From there,
translate the Mohs' and Knoop hardness scales into points of resistant
defense. That way, we'll know the resistant defense of a diamond Grond
tries to crush in his hand.
Len Carpenter
redlion@early.com
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 01:43:04 -0500
From: "Kevin J. McClain" <KevLord@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: KevLord@worldnet.att.net
Organization: Courts of Kirkwood
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Ha! I KNEW it!! Magic is EVIL!!!]
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Vox Ludator! wrote:
> > The only sin that sends you to Hell is unbelief. If you don't believe
> > that Jesus died for your sins then there is no hope for you.
>
> Frankly, this is just as offensive a belief as claiming that RPGs and card
> games are the work of the devil. I cannot reconcile any belief system that
> says:
> a) There is a benevolent supreme intelligence
> b) He/she/it will damn a Bushman or Aborigine or Tibetan or (you
> get the idea) who has led a benevolent existence on the
> technicality that they didn't HAVE a "local New Testament Church".
>
> The two concepts just aren't consistent. If salvation/damnation (assuming
> they exist) is not dependent on the actual composition of one's moral fiber
> but merely some arbitrary pledge of allegiance, I'd say there's no hope for GOD.
You must remember that as a Fundamental Christian I beleieve in Jesus Christ. Not
Buddah, Vishnu nor any other deities. Jesus saves by grace, the unmerited favor of
God. The composition of your morale fiber is irrelevant because you could never be
good enough to work your way into heaven. No matter how good you were, someone would
be better. Instead of Drawing a line somewhere, it is "Whosoever will may come."
Salvation is easy. Working at being a good Christian is where we fall short. As for
Aborigines and the like, Jesus commands us to go forth into all the world and preach
the gospel. That is why there are missionaries.
>
>
> > Thirdly, the Bible teaches that there are only two forces at work here
> > on Earth, God and Satan.
>
> No, Biblical *scholars* teach this. The Bible itself takes contradictary
> stances, on account that it is a compilation of several different authors
> who didn't confer with each other (sorta like the DC Universe).
The Bible says that it has one author. Different men who were all inspired by the
Holy Spirit. If you know of a contradiction in the Bible, cite the books and verses
please.
>
>
> > You see how ridiculous it can become. The Christian life is supposed to
> > be balanced. You cannot remove yourself from the world physically but you
> > are supposed to spiritually. It helps to limit your exposure to non-Godly
> > things. If you consider yourself a Christian, and you play games, have
> > fun. But don't allow Magic or Champions or anything else become your God.
> > Have you ever missed church to play a game?
>
> Ah, here we have the whole quandary: if God is everywhere (at least,
> his/her/its awareness is everywhere, on account of being omniscient), then
> isn't "church" wherever and however I choose to worship him? Maybe it's
> okay if we just say a grace before breaking out the decks. :]
The word church is from the greek eclesia which translates into "called out
assembly". God is everywhere but he expects you to be in church, being called out
from the world, when it is time. "My church is wherever I am" is false philosophy
taught be people who would rather be fishing than in church. You should check all
the references in the Old and New Testements about the House of God before blowing
off church to crush villains.
Love in Christ
Kev
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 01:56:39 -0500
From: "Kevin J. McClain" <KevLord@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: KevLord@worldnet.att.net
Organization: Courts of Kirkwood
Subject: Re: Extra Time on a Triggered Power
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Rick Holding wrote:
> -- ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net wrote:
> >
> > One of the characters in my campaign is using an INT Drain which
> > takes 5 minutes to prepare, but it is also built with a Trigger, so
> > that it can be delivered in combat; essentially, she has to inject
> > a potion into someone for the drug to take effect.
> >
> > Is anybody else as bugged by this as I am? I don't think that the
> > Extra Time should be worth the full limitation in these
> > circumstances. How do you handle injectible drugs in your campaigns?
>
> That is the primary use of trigger. A player sets up a power,
> HOWEVER LONG IT TAKES. All endurance is paid at this time. At some
> later time, an event triggers the power, in this case injecting a drug.
> She must still make an attack role and overcome any other limitations
> that the power may have, presumably bare skin or whatever to inject
> through.
>
> Of course, once the power is expended, the start up time must be
> followed. It is not specified that the player can only have one
> triggered power set at one time. That would have to be up to GM's to
> decide how many "charges" can be set up at once.
>
Or you can follow this simple rule of GMing.
If it bothers you or disrupts your game don't allow it. or if you feel
purchasing extra time limitation coupled with a trigger to make a devasting
attack too cheap then up the cost. The point is you have the final say in
keeping the balance in your campaign.
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:57:26 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA/ Desol Super Dodge
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> >> Right there we have a contradiction between the desired effect -- being
> >> unhittable -- and the game mechanics.
>
> TRG> Not a valid agument, Rat.
>
> Bullshit, it is an argument based entirely on special effects.
Youd didn't read the rest of the post. Plenty of Hero power
constructions involving not getting hit/ not taking damage have made them
be equals. Thus we have missile deflections that are actually a dodge,
and blocks that are actually a dodge. We have a shield providing a bonus
to DCV or a bonus to defenses -- but it does the same thing. When it
comes down to it, not being hit == taking no damage. One and the same.
With Desol's effect of stopping all damage and related effects, it has the
same game effect as not being hit at all. Works fine.
Therefore, your argument is invalid. The SFX is quite covered by
the power build in question.
And again I ask, how would you build the power so there is no
possibility of the "lucky shot".
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 01:02:22 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA/ Desol Super Dodge
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> I agree. Rather than a generic +1/2 Advantage that for some reason affects
> any desolid character, regardless of special effect, I'd have a bunch of
> +1/4 Advantages like Affects Ghosts/Spirits, Affects Dimensional Shifted,
> Affects Temporally Displaced, etc. Actually, I think I'd still call it one
> advantage, but require SFX to be specified in order to determine
> applicability.
That's a pretty good, and more logical, way to do it. I'd allow,
then, the full -1/2 affects desolid for a mix of possible effects, but
keep it strictly GM limited. The only SFX I can think of right now is
extreme luck: "Wow, somehow my blast crossed the dimensional shift and
hit him." or "Wow, I was lucky it defracted on his gaseous form and was
able to get him."
> I might also do something similar for Hardened. Why should titanium steel
> walls stop a dimension walking teleporter?
Well, I think there needs to be a modifier like "affects
teleport". Or, more appropriately, make it a function of CE. That would
seem to work best.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 01:05:15 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> << Yup. If the quality was high enough. >>
>
> You're not getting off the hook that easy, you can-of-worms-opener, you! :D
>
> Just how do you define "high enough" quality?
See some of the other posts, but I think the cardboard has to be a
little thinker than that for Alien Enemies and the Champs GM screen.
Also, art that makes it possible to tell who a character is.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 02:14:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
X-Sender: susano@access2.digex.net
Reply-To: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA/ Desol Super Dodge
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Sean Pavlish wrote:
> > Hmm.. a character that uses Desolidification, with Totally Invisible power
> >effects... with the special effect of "awesome Zen-like martial arts ability
> >to avoid blows" or some such (a la Remo Williams, or legendary ninja
> >abilities, etc). Too wild? Too GROSS?
>
> A friend of mine ran a campaign with an NPC with that exact power. The guys
> that played definately had a very difficult time with it in the run and the GM
> had a difficult time dodging things after...(when they figured it out) :)
Hey, Sean, it you're talking about Shi (in my Justice Alliance game), she
didn't have this power exact power. What she did have was Desolid, IPE
(sight), define as becoming intangible. OTOH, the PCs almost went crazy
because I described her as dodging constantly resulting in the PCs
triumphantly telling me they had hit a DCV of 17 only to have me say "you
miss". She also aborted to her Desolid often to avoid damage. It wasn't
until someone saw her walk through a wall that they realized something was
up.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 01:20:31 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
Subject: Re: Villian groups
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Humor me on this one!
>>
>> I like to construct scenarios with touches of current events and or people
>> twisted enough to fit into a four color genre. Has anyone put together a
>> villain group based on the Spice Girls? You have five different
>> personalities that could be used to create five different villains banded
>> together to promote "Girl Power."
>>
> Neat idea. But I'd probably do it as a corporate Hero Team
>designed to promote a particular British record label by claiming to
>be a dumbed up version of feminism.
If you really wanted them to be like the SG's only 2 would actually have
super powers the others would just look good and help out...
Rising Force Publications
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 14 Dec 97 01:23:24 -0800
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editio
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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* Original Area: RO_Internet
* Original To : GoldRushG@aol.com (1:143/240)
G >
G > But if we're going to go to the expense of reprinting the game,
G > rather see us take opportunity to clean up the rest of the typos,
G > some new artwork, change the trade dress (i.e., the outside cover
G > layout, maybe? And there are a few MINOR rules changes that Hero wants
G > make. And let's not forget that we can also streamline those
G > cumbersome rules, along with including more or better examples...
G >
G > Mark @ GRG
G > ---
Great Idea! I'd buy it. Sounds more like 4.1 than '5th edition.'
OK, 4.2, there was Chamions Deluxe. I'd be delighted with a
5th edition, even if there were changes comprable (in degree) to
those between 3rd and 4th.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 14 Dec 97 01:23:46 -0800
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editio
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
* Original Area: RO_Internet
* Original To : rook@shell.infinex.com (1:143/240)
r > > some new artwork, change the trade dress (i.e., the
r > > outside cover design) and
r >
r > Yes please. That cover needs a facelift.
r >
Really? I thought it was pretty good. I'd realy like to
see the next panel, though: Seeker burried under the wall
Doc D just squished him with, and the broken Katana stiking
out....
r > > layout, maybe? And there are a few MINOR rules changes that Hero
r > wants to
r > > make.
r > Like?
r >
I believe it's doubling the cost of Aid, and dumping Hand Attack...
At least Steve P has mentioned those.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 14 Dec 97 01:24:28 -0800
Subject: Re: Greetings
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
* Original Area: RO_Internet
* Original To : mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net (1:143/240)
m > Juat a general question to the list, did that happen to everyone?
m >
No, I only ever saw 1 BBB start to go... and that was after 7
years. Mine was still in good shape this year, when I gave
it to my godson (he's old enough to start gaming...)
Now I'm combing the local stores for a HSR...
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 14 Dec 97 01:24:52 -0800
Subject: Some weapons
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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* Original Area: RO_Internet
* Original To : merlin273@juno.com (1:143/241)
m > Hey,
m > If anyone's interested...I've converted some basic SF weapons from
m > GURPS
m > Ultra-Tech through BTRC's Guns, Guns, Guns(TM) to Hero, then to
m > Fuzion.
m > I've set their power at the level of my SF campaign (TL12)
m >
m > WEAPON TL12 DV HERO FUZION
m > Blaster Pistol 7d 58 2d6+1 DC7
m > Hvy Blaster Pistol 8d 65 2d6+1 DC7
m > Blaster Rifle 10d+1 82 3d6-1 DC8
m > Hvy Blaster Rifle 18d 135 3d6 DC9
m > Electron Pistol 8d 65 2d6+1 DC7
m > Electron Rifle 16d 121 3d6 DC9
What? No millitary X-ray lasers? How are
we supposed to kill superheroes?
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 14 Dec 97 01:25:14 -0800
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editi
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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* Original Area: RO_Internet
* Original To : bob.greenwade@klock.com (1:143/240)
b > >the Hero System we all love, with a few MINOR rules changes (like
b > Hand
b > >Attacks...).
b >
b > Opal has a fix for Hand Attack which most of the folks on the list
b > like.
b > (I know Bill and I both do, but he and I tend to agree on things
b > anyway.)
Now if Rat and Vox and Tim Gilberg all liked it... (no wait, thats
the coming Apocolypse!)
b > Hey Opal! Do you mind posting that again, for Mark? :-]
b > ---
I know that Steve P has mentioned dumping HA, still, hope springs
eternal. (plus I'm egotistical and love posting my own stuff :)
Hand-to-Hand (normal) Attack:
A character with this Standard Power can increase the amount
of normal damage he does in hand-to-hand combat. For 5 Character
Points, the character can buy +1d6 HA. The HA must be defined as
physical or energy, normal or stun-only. Strength adds directly
to the damage of any type of HA just as it does with a hand-to-
hand killing attack - no more than doubling the DCs of the
attack. Alternately a small HA can be added directly to STR
damage with any kind of striking maneuver as long as the HA is
defined as doing normal physical damage with no advantages that
would have to be extended to strength.
Though it cannot be 'spread' in the manner of an Energy
Blast, an HA can be manipulated to improve OCV at the price of
damage. Each 1d6 of damage sacrificed gives a +1 OCV. Since an
HA - even when not focused - is assumed to be somewhat separate
from the character using it, it can be used to Block an
opponent's attack. The character is considered armed and has a
+1 OCV per 3d6 of HA employed. If the character does not want to
be able to use his HA to improve OCV, he can take the -1/4 'Beam'
limitation.
Hand-to-Hand Attack cost: +1d6 HA per 5 Apts, minimum cost
10pts.
BTW, I use a lot of minor Variants but two more might
at least inspire some good ideas for a revised 4th ed:
Regeneration:
This special power allows a character to recover BOD more
rapidly. Normally, BOD heals at a rate of 1 per point of
Recovery each month. Each 5 pts of Regeneration moves that
recovery rate one step up on the time chart - up to 35 pts which
allows the character to heal his REC in BOD each turn (on post-
segment-12). For 45 pts, the character can heal BOD every time
he takes a recovery (including post-segment-12). Characters
wishing to recover from wounds even faster should consider taking
Damage Reduction with the special effect of instantly healing.
Regeneration can go beyond merely speeding healing. For +10
pts the character's rate of Regeneration is unaffected by
environmental factors or levels of exertion. For +15 pts, he
does not bleed (doesn't lose BOD after being reduced to 0 BOD or
suffer from the effects of the optional bleeding rules). The
character can also regrow lost limbs and recover completely from
the effects of Disabling wounds for +10 pts.
Regeneration cost: 5pts per step on the time chart. Heal
BOD on each Recovery for 45pts. Ignore environment/exertion
for +10 pts. Does not bleed +15pts. Regrow limbs +10.
Minimum cost 10pts.
They did end up using something similar to the in FUZION... don't
know if that a good sign or not...
And, since I'm a 5pt per die Fanatic:
Telekinesis:
A character with this standard power can move objects at a
distance. He can apply 1pt of strength for each point in
Telekinesis. TK can be used only to hold or move targets, not
'punch' or 'squeeze' them. Targets that are held can use their
strength to escape, just as if they were grabbed by a normal
opponent. Targets can be moved about, within range (5" per pt of
TK), at a rate equal to the distance of a standing throw per
phase. If the telekinetic does not wish to maintain his hold he
can hurl a target the distance of a running throw. A victim
hurled or slammed against a sufficiently unyielding surface can
take up to TK STR/5 in d6 of normal damage. However, the shock
of doing this much damage causes the TK grab to be automatically
broken. A 'casual' (1/2 STR) slam does not have this effect.
Characters wishing to do direct damage to a victim with TK
can take a +1/2 advantage to do so. This form of TK allows the
user to slam a victim for full damage without breaking his hold
or squeeze him each phase for normal damage. 'Only' being able
to squeeze or slam without breaking the hold, but not both, is
still a +1/2 advantage, since the two actions are mechanically
all but identical. Characters wishing to have a 'Telekinetic
Punch' can buy a physical energy blast and place it in a
multipower with their TK. Some campaigns (especially those that
disallow power frameworks) might allow Direct TK to punch. Fine
work, such as the character could perform with his own hands, can
be accomplished with TK, though a DEX roll (with range penalties)
is required. Not being able to do fine work is a -1/4
limitation, analogous to the 'Beam' limitation on EB. In no case
does TK stack with the character's STR characteristic.
Telekinesis cost: 1pt TK str for 1 Character point, minimum
cost 10pts Direct TK is a +1/2 advantage and lets TK
squeeze or slam w/o losing its hold. No fine work is a -1/4
limitation. Range is 5xpts in power.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 14 Dec 97 01:25:34 -0800
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage o
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
* Original Area: RO_Internet
* Original To : trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu (1:143/240)
t > > What's so horrifying about having two powers that can be used
t > > independently or gang-fired?
t >
t > Basically, it takes the focus away from SFX and into power
t > effects. You define a SFX and take a power for it. You don't take a
t > couple of powers, give them each SFX, then say that together they make
t > up
t > a new SFX.
t > -Tim Gilberg
t > ---
Huh? How would using two attacks at the same time change thier
F/X? I mean, if Iron Man fires Repulsors and Unibeam at the
same time, they're still Repulsors and it's still the Unibeam,
they not sudenly Unipulsors or Mutant-powered eyebeams or
anything...
In the realm of house rules... If I allowed a character to
do that sort of thing (it does require having 2 attack powers,
that are targeted the same way, bought outside of power
frameworks... pretty expensive, and you don't see it much)
I'd roll it like Autofire, each -2 you make the roll buy
lets another one of the powers hit.
So, in the above example, Shellhead would have a 2-shot-
only Autofire on the Repulsors, and a straight KA for the
Unibeam. Cutting lose with both at the same time, he'd
hit with both repulsors and the unibeam if he made his
attack roll by 4. If he made it dead on, only one would
hit (dust of a d3 and randomly determine it).
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 14 Dec 97 01:25:58 -0800
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editio
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
* Original Area: RO_Internet
* Original To : GoldRushG@aol.com (1:143/240)
G > One other note. Keep in mind that, primarily because of financial
G > considerations, we are looking at printing the Hero System rules book
G > separately, with Champions being a genre book. Champions would have
....
G > several different types, etc., but the Hero System "core" rules would
G > the Hero System rules book.
G >
G > I realize this may not be a popular decision, and I'm willing to
G > hear well reasoned discussion for or against the idea. But please consi
Suits me to a T. And, yes, I'd buy 'em both.
I'd really like to see the 'next panel' of the Dr. D vs Seeker
fight from the BBB... and Doc D better be winning. :)
G > In addition, future genre books would be published like the "new"
G > Champions
G > book, and we may even be able to publish revisions of older genre
G > books
G > (Fantasy Hero, anyone?).
Yes, and STAR HERO!!
G > Mark @ GRG
G > ---
Wow, I like this new emphasis on Genre books...
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 14 Dec 97 01:26:32 -0800
Subject: Cardboard Heroes
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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* Original Area: RO_Internet
* Original To : GoldRushG@aol.com (1:143/240)
G >
G > Since it seems that the majority of folks (onthis list, anyway)
G > would like
G > to see more cardboard minis, let me ask you this: Would you be willing
G > to pay
G > an extra $2 for a book that had them included?
G >
G > Mark @ GRG
G > ---
If they were decent, I'd buy a book I didn't want to get them.
(I probably shouldn't have admitted that) :)
I'd rather buy packs of them sepparately, of course.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 14 Dec 97 01:26:58 -0800
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage o
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
* Original Area: RO_Internet
* Original To : trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu (1:143/240)
t >
t > Never said there was no middle ground, simply said you had to pay
t > for it, probably with a MP.
t >
t >
t > -Tim Gilberg
t > ---
I guess you didn't notice that the Multipower in question
doesn't end up costing much more (or even slightly less -
a whole 1 pt less in the example I posted)
than just buying two powers straight up...
Ex:
The poor guy who started this mentioned a 10d EB, and a
3d flash:
50 Multipower
5 10d EB
3 3d Flash
5 10d EB (again, it's a rules quirk)
20 3d Flash, linked to the 2nd EB -1/2
--
83
as opposed to...
50 10d EB
30 3d Flash
--
80
3 pts huh? So is that a 1/10th Advantage on the Flash
or a 1/17th advantage on the EB.. or +1/27th each, :)
Of course, if you're only linking a 1d Flash, it's less
silly:
50 Multipower
5 10d EB
1 1d Flash
5 10d EB
7 Linked 1d Flash -1/2
--
68
vs
50 10d EB
10 1d Flash
--
60
The 8 pts would be a big advantage (+3/4) on the
Flash, but still less than 1/4 for the EB. In
any case, it's a pretty trivial number of points
for such a heated debate.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 14 Dec 97 01:27:36 -0800
Subject: Incomplete Rules (was 5t
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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* Original To : bsvitavs@bu.edu (1:143/240)
b > I'm all for the 5th ed. In addition to the various suggestions people
b > have
b > already made, I hope it includes either a "slipperiness" power or a
b > revised Change Environment that can make an icy surface with combat
b > effects. (My pet peeve.)
b >
The CE that was posted recently was a bit too powerful and complex
for my liking, but it was still better than those Dex Drains and
stuff...
b > If there are any extensive changes at all, I wouldn't mind seeing
b > something like (but not exactly like) the "Incomplete Character"
b > rules.
b > ---
What parts of the Incomplete rules would you like to see done
differently.... It's still very much under development.
(there's still some bits that aren't ironed out
like 'lacks DEX'...)
Post comments to the list or email jimalj@best.com (he won't
mind, really).
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 14 Dec 97 01:28:00 -0800
Subject: Yet Another Power Proble
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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l > The spell, basically, creates a mouth with sharp pointy teeth on an
l > inanimate object, most usually a bag or sack. Thief reaches into bag,
l > gets hand chomped (call it a 1d6 HKA). How to do this as a spell?
l >
Oh yeah, that one, Wizard's handbook, right?
l > Focus? Not really:The spell must be cast on an object, but the focus
l >
nope
l > Transform? The all-purpose catch all. I'd like to avoid it.
l >
me too
l > Independant? No, the spell expires after one bite, and the caster can
l > re-cast it multiple times without trouble.
nooo
You're looking for a minimum-cost (1/2d?) KA. Triggered (by touching
the oject). Because of the way trigger works, you have to make it
Area Effect Hex (or the teeth bite the bag...), with a Limitted power
limitation 'only affects the one triggering the power' -1/4.
I use a similar power for contact poisons.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 14 Dec 97 01:28:18 -0800
Subject: Extra Time on a Triggere
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> One of the characters in my campaign is using an INT Drain which
> takes 5 minutes to prepare, but it is also built with a Trigger, so
> that it can be delivered in combat; essentially, she has to inject
> a potion into someone for the drug to take effect.
>
> Is anybody else as bugged by this as I am? I don't think that the
> Extra Time should be worth the full limitation in these
> circumstances. How do you handle injectible drugs in your campaigns?
>
> Guy
> ----------------------------------
I believe it's halved... If it isn't officially, you can always
declare a variant to that effect.
Note that, but default, Trigger effects the item/person it's put
on... In this case, the *needle* is going to be drugged... :)
You have to buy AE, with a limitation that it only affects the
one target, to get around this (well, UBO or UAO, or something
might work) (darn, I have to get a new HSR! practically
memorized just isn't quite the same)
And since you asked about injected poison.... let
me just dig this up out of the recesses of my hard
drive... OK the itty bitty cracks, 60 Meg hard drive
don't get to have recesses do they? :)
___----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Area: Ro_Herolist
Msg: #113
Date: 09-29-94 03:33 (Public)
From: Opal
To: hero-l@omg.org
Subject: Gradual Effect...
___----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Has anybody noticed that, while the gradual effect rule is really good
> for things like acids, that is sucks for poisons in a heroic-level
> world? I find that I keep resorting to uncontrolled,
> continuous drains to g
> my creature's poisons down to a reasonable cost, and still keep them
> leathal
>
> Does anybody else have any other ideas?
>
Actually a Gradual Effect KA is ideal for poisons in a heroic-level
campaign. However, (and you have to make an aparently difficult leap
here) you DON'T NEED TO BUY THEM NND. With the low levels of resistant
DEF in heroic games there's no need for the horendously expensive +2
NND-that-does-body advantage.
Here are 4 examples of basic poison types:
Injected Poison (Blade Venom): This poison represents a poisoned dagger or
similar weapon. The first 1d of killing damage occurs imediately and
represents the wound caused by the blade. If this first increment fails to
do body damage, the remaining 3d of damage (that caused by the poison)
do not occur. Obviously this works will for monster attacks as well.
For a snakebite, dart or poison ring effect (one that is delivered by a
very small wound) take the lim: 'doesn't work at all vs rPD' -1/2.
4d6 RKAp, Gradual: 1trn (4 1d KAs, 1 every 3 segments) -
1/2, No Range -1/2,
Must do body on first increment or attack fails -1/4, 6 charges -3/4,
OAF: Envenomed weapon -1.
Active Cost: 60, Real cost: 15.
Injested Poison: This poison kills only those characters who actually
swallow it. It is planted in food or water and is dificult
to detect. Though
it is not an NND, few characters will be able to defend
against it. Remember,
most armor (in heroic games) doesn't cover the character
completely. One area
it doesn't cover is the inside of his mouth! You can't eat
with a Force Field
up so there's no danger of that stopping the poison once its gone off. Those
characters with unfocused Armor or Damage resistance should
get thier defenses
after all, if thier very skin can turn sword blades it's not that surprising
that a poison meant to kill normal humans wont work as well.
3d6-1 RKAp, Triggered: when eaten +1/4, Area Effect Hex
+1/2, Invisible to
all but one sense group +3/4, Gradual: 1hr -2, IAF: poison ampule -1/2, Only
affects triggering characters -1/4, vs. Living only -1/2,
not vs creatures with
wierd metabolisms/appropriate Life support/immunities -1/4, 4 chgs -1.
Active Cost: 100, Real Cost: 18
Note: the poison must be area effect or else it only damages the FOOD it
was planted in. Also since it's AE it doesn't take a hit location of head
(since its set off when you swallow it) or stomach, just a 'generalized' hit.
Contatct Poison: This poison kills those who touch it with thier exposed
flesh. Obviously armor, and even normal clothing, offers
complete protection.
This write up assumes the poison is part of a creature's natural deffense -
like a Poison Arrow Tree Frog - but it could also be 'planted' on an object
by using advantages like those of the Injested Poison.
3d6 RKAp, Damage Shield +1/2, 0 END +1/2, Gradual: 1 turn -1/2, Attacker
must make contact with bare flesh -1 (most attackers use weapons), Only vs
living creatures -1/2, not vs creatures with sealed LS, immunities, wierd
metabolisms or thik skin/fur/scales -1/2.
Active cost 90, Real Cost 27.
Poison Gas: This poison lingers in the air for a short time doing damage
to all who breath it durring that period. This is an example of a poison
that pretty much has to be an NND. However, it doesn't have to be a huge
one, nor need it be gradual.
1d6 RKAp, NND:Sealed Life Support (does BOD) +2, Area Effect: Radius +1,
Continuous +1, Uncontrollable +1/2, Extended Area +1/2, OAF: gas grenade -1,
1 continuing charge lasting 1 min -1, vs living -1/2, dispersed by high
winds or counteragents -0 (required because of the Uncontrollable Adv.).
Active Cost 90, Real cost 27
___
* OFFLINE 1.58 * I am not a Rules Lawyer...I'm a Rules Activist.
___ Maximus/2 2.01wb
* Origin: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-735-0481 * (1:143/240)
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 14 Dec 97 01:28:46 -0800
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editio
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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t >
t > > If there are any extensive changes at all, I wouldn't mind seeing
t > > something like (but not exactly like) the "Incomplete Character"
t > rules.
t >
t >
t > I don't. Not everyone would like the change, and it would make
t > most 4th edition stuff obsolete. Bad idea. No major changes means
t > less
t > complaints.
t >
t >
t > -Tim Gilberg
t > ---
Have you seen the Incomplete rules.... they change the way Vehicles,
Bases, Automatons, and Computers work. Those are pretty much minor
sidelines to hero 4th, hardly 'most of 4th ed.' In fact, what they
do is make the fairly wierd, cobbled-together systems used for those
things work with the standard character build system.
They also open up the possiblity of a lot of different character
types...
Oh, or are you just talking about 'extensive changes' in general?
Sorry...
I think the level of change between 3rd and 4th could be tollerated
(though that level of change isn't actualy nescisary, it's just
a few problems that need to be ironed out (like linked) :)
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 14 Dec 97 01:29:02 -0800
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage o
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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F > Limitation has therefore put you at a disadvantage. Now, GMs must
F > closely
F > monitor characters with the Linked Disad, so they don't simply buy
F > another
F > Flash. If that's the case, then the Linked Flash has lost it's
F > Limitation
F > value, and deserves no points.
F >
F > 'Lynx
F > ---
So, they don't get points for it... do they still get to take
it and fire the two powers at once?
50 10d EB
20 linked 3d Flash -1/2
--
70 and linked is valid, by your interpretation...
but, if the character has the EB in a multipower with
a similar Flash, then he gets no points for the Linked
50 Multipower
3 3d Flash
5 10d EB
30 3d Flash linked to EB -0
--
88
Right?
But wait... if the linked 3d flash isn't limited...
Why do I need to go and buy the 2nd 3d Flash?
I mean, if a mutant character has 3d Killing, 0END
(laser eye beams), and decides to get an 'Infinity
Inc' Laser pistol (3d Killing, 0 END, OAF)... does
he not get the Focus limitation, because he always
has a 3d RKA ready to use at 0END? I mean, that
seems to be the logic you're using... So this
mutant is paying 135 pts and he basicly has a
3d KA, 0 END....
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 03:52:48 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Ha! I KNEW it!! Magic is EVIL!!!]
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> You must remember that as a Fundamental Christian I beleieve in Jesus Christ. Not
> Buddah, Vishnu nor any other deities. Jesus saves by grace, the unmerited favor of
You know, I'm gonna be laughing my freaking ass off when you're
sitting in the Zorastrian version of hell with me, because you chose the
wrong God to worship. If so. Of course, in all likelyhood, no one's
gonna be laughing cause there ain't no such thing as an afterlife -- Just
a bunch of dreams made up by man so he could face the terror of death and
existance.
> God. The composition of your morale fiber is irrelevant because you could never be
> good enough to work your way into heaven. No matter how good you were, someone would
> be better.
Damn that's egotistical and just plain wrong. I live the good
life asked for by your God, but because I never heard of him, I'm gonna
die? Sounds like some toddler on a temper tantrum that wants his own way
or else. Actually, that's a good way to view most any god.
> Instead of Drawing a line somewhere, it is "Whosoever will may come."
> Salvation is easy.
Doesn't sound like it.
> Working at being a good Christian is where we fall short. As for
> Aborigines and the like, Jesus commands us to go forth into all the world and preach
> the gospel. That is why there are missionaries.
Oh yeah. Them. The ones that point a gun at your head and say,
"Pray to our gods." The ones that kiddnapped children to put in
missionary schools and then rapped the children's knuckles when they spoke
their own language. The ones that destroyed the works of the Mayan (and
many other Central American cultures) civilization because they couldn't
understand the writing and think it must be a sign from Satan. Those
missionaries? No thank you.
Oh. And why would I switch to your god when mine is telling me
that I better stay put or go to hell? Pick an egotist on a power trip,
any egotist on a power trip.
> > No, Biblical *scholars* teach this. The Bible itself takes contradictary
> > stances, on account that it is a compilation of several different authors
> > who didn't confer with each other (sorta like the DC Universe).
>
> The Bible says that it has one author. Different men who were all inspired by the
> Holy Spirit.
If you believe that tripe your more ignorant than I thought. The
bible is a mix of sources from many different *men* (and a few women).
Other men took the parts they want and left out the parts they didn't to
further their own beliefs. The writings were put down at different times
for different purposes, eventually they achieved a source of mythic
standing.
> If you know of a contradiction in the Bible, cite the books and verses
> please.
You want an example? Read Genesis for starters. Two seperate and
different accounts of the creation of the world. (Taken from two earlier
sources, of course). How about the Gospels? Jesus' life is different, in
much tone and feel, in each. There's more.
> The word church is from the greek eclesia which translates into "called out
> assembly". God is everywhere but he expects you to be in church, being called out
> from the world, when it is time. "My church is wherever I am" is false philosophy
> taught be people who would rather be fishing than in church. You should check all
> the references in the Old and New Testements about the House of God before blowing
> off church to crush villains.
OK. Quote them. And find a way to disregard the refrences that
say otherwise.
-Tim Gilberg
From: "Robert" <baron@stlnet.com>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 04:04:59 -0600
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> << That Perez cover will be a hard one to top though!>>
>
> I take it you haven't seen the covers to SA:CoH or Sengoku, then. We
don't
> plan on acquiring "mediocre" art for a 5th Ed. book, Michael. ;)
>
> That brings up another question: What kind of illo would you folks like
to
> see for the cover? A collage of different scenes? A comic-booky sort of
illo
> (usually a fight scene)?
>
If you want the truth? I'd like to see Alex Ross do a cover and some
interior done by George Perz, Adam Hughes, and John Byrne. I don't know if
there is enough MONEY to get them to do this, but I think at least an Alex
Ross cover would be worth the cost in terms of marketing. He's hot and and
an INCREDIBLY talented artist.
Oh well, its a nice pipe dream.
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 02:12:09 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
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Eric Pawtowski wrote:
>
> Small change that I've always liked: allowing Acrobatics to be used
> as complementary to Breakfall. Makes Acrobatics much more useful.
>
> Eric
In my games, I always give players the option of taking the 'classic'
Acrobatics skill from 3rd ed. 10 pts. base for DEX roll, which includes
all breakfall applications and can provide a +2 to dodge. Wait - was
that official, or was that a house rule my early GMs had? I remember
that +2 "Acrobatic Dodge" was standard in all my early/mid-80s Champs
games...
Anyway, I like at least the option of taking 'full' acrobatics
instead of having to buy both Acro AND B-fall skills.
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 02:17:11 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
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Curt Hicks wrote:
>
> From: "Michael Nunn" <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
> >
> > I am going to go out on a limb here, but I don't want to see a "Whole
> > New Champions" in 5th edition. In fact I don't really want to see a
> > 5th edition, unless the main thrust of it is addition and improvement
> > over 4th ed.
> >
> > I like 4th edition, no it's not perfect, but what I don't like I
> > modify, and what I don't like and what Vox doesn't like could be
> > completely different. One of the great things about Hero is that is
> > is so easy to gear for your own game.
> >
> > Just my humble opinion...
> >
> > Michael
>
> I agree completely. I think a lot of people believe that a '5th Edition'
> will fix their *particular* complaints with the rules. You don't need a
> '5th Edition' to do that, just say "in my game, this is how its going to be."
>
> Curt Hicks
In fact, that very dynamic is why there are so many "House Rules" and
campaign-specific Champions web pages out there. Which I think is a
GOOD thing. Some things are widely considered to need fixing or
cleaning up, but of course, on many issues, the 'fix' is something
different for everyone with an opinion.
BTW, if I ever get off my *ss and do it, I'll have my own House Rules
page up someday. If I'm lucky, sometime in January '98....
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 02:38:49 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
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GoldRushG wrote:
> That brings up another question: What kind of illo would you folks like to
> see for the cover? A collage of different scenes? A comic-booky sort of illo
> (usually a fight scene)?
I really like the Perez cover, but am not opposed to a change. But
the flavor should definitely be the same. Superheroes in action,
probably one large 'splash page' scene.
Or possibly a 5 or 6 panel comic-book page including a splash or
dialog and a splash of action....
> One other note. Keep in mind that, primarily because of financial
> considerations, we are looking at printing the Hero System rules book
> separately, with Champions being a genre book. Champions would have the super
> power rules in there, as well as a *much* better treatment of the genre,
> examples, no "official universe" inside (rather examples and notes on creating
> several different types, etc., but the Hero System "core" rules would be in
> the Hero System rules book.
Great! Some would look at it as forcing a gamer to buy two books,
but it makes sense to seperate core rules from genre-specific stuff. On
the other hand, it would make it vital to have extensive and precise
examples in the rulebook to be SURE to cover all genres; super-heroes
using powers raise different questions than gunslingers using guns. (at
least they often do).
>
> I realize this may not be a popular decision, and I'm willing to hear well
> reasoned discussion for or against the idea. But please consider that
> reprinting the BBB as it is now would cost *us* a lot of money, and the retail
> price would likely be $40 or more (and that for a softcover with no
> software!). We want folks to buy it, and the only way to keep the prices
> reasonable is to limit some of the content. This seems the most logical way to
> do that.
One danger is that genre books may have to be larger to be sure to
answer all possible questions and uncertainties about rules and
powers/skills. It is also important to cover as completely as possible
all available powers/skills with sample/introductory characters to give
new players (and GMs) something concrete to refer to, helping clarify
examples. Actually the comic pages in C:TNM with 'notes' on the
Champions using their abilities was a good idea.
I also think that checking with the list or appropriate newsgroup for
which areas need further explaination and whether proposed examples are
effective or not would be a good idea.
> In addition, future genre books would be published like the "new" Champions
> book, and we may even be able to publish revisions of older genre books
> (Fantasy Hero, anyone?).
>
> Mark @ GRG
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 03:02:35 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: It's Not Easy Being Green
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> I was over at a friend's house last night, and she was watching the
> "Frosty the Snowman" special on CBS.
<Green Diatribe Ensues>
> Have compassion.
> Green power.
> Thank you.
Actually, there is an organization already perfectly fit for their
cause. They should ask for representation from (wince) GreenPeace.
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
From: "Jeff O'Connor" <jtoc@msn.com>
Cc: <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Ha! I KNEW it!! Magic is EVIL!!!]
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 04:16:42 -0700
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Kevin:
I don't give one whit about your fundamentalist views where this mailing
list is concerned. I think it is just peachy that you have reconciled your
particular religious world-view with your hobbies, but frankly I really
don't give a damn about the finer points of the former. Please keep your
religious views out of this mailing list - while they have their place, the
Champions mailing list really isn't it.
Thank You.
-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin J. McClain <KevLord@worldnet.att.net>
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Sunday, December 14, 1997 12:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Ha! I KNEW it!! Magic is EVIL!!!]
>
>
>Vox Ludator! wrote:
>
>> > The only sin that sends you to Hell is unbelief. If you don't believe
>> > that Jesus died for your sins then there is no hope for you.
>>
>> Frankly, this is just as offensive a belief as claiming that RPGs and
card
>> games are the work of the devil. I cannot reconcile any belief system
that
>> says:
>> a) There is a benevolent supreme intelligence
>> b) He/she/it will damn a Bushman or Aborigine or Tibetan or (you
>> get the idea) who has led a benevolent existence on the
>> technicality that they didn't HAVE a "local New Testament
Church".
>>
>> The two concepts just aren't consistent. If salvation/damnation
(assuming
>> they exist) is not dependent on the actual composition of one's moral
fiber
>> but merely some arbitrary pledge of allegiance, I'd say there's no hope
for GOD.
>
>You must remember that as a Fundamental Christian I beleieve in Jesus
Christ. Not
>Buddah, Vishnu nor any other deities. Jesus saves by grace, the unmerited
favor of
>God. The composition of your morale fiber is irrelevant because you could
never be
>good enough to work your way into heaven. No matter how good you were,
someone would
>be better. Instead of Drawing a line somewhere, it is "Whosoever will may
come."
>Salvation is easy. Working at being a good Christian is where we fall
short. As for
>Aborigines and the like, Jesus commands us to go forth into all the world
and preach
>the gospel. That is why there are missionaries.
>
>>
>>
>> > Thirdly, the Bible teaches that there are only two forces at work here
>> > on Earth, God and Satan.
>>
>> No, Biblical *scholars* teach this. The Bible itself takes contradictary
>> stances, on account that it is a compilation of several different authors
>> who didn't confer with each other (sorta like the DC Universe).
>
>The Bible says that it has one author. Different men who were all inspired
by the
>Holy Spirit. If you know of a contradiction in the Bible, cite the books
and verses
>please.
>
>>
>>
>> > You see how ridiculous it can become. The Christian life is supposed to
>> > be balanced. You cannot remove yourself from the world physically but
you
>> > are supposed to spiritually. It helps to limit your exposure to
non-Godly
>> > things. If you consider yourself a Christian, and you play games, have
>> > fun. But don't allow Magic or Champions or anything else become your
God.
>> > Have you ever missed church to play a game?
>>
>> Ah, here we have the whole quandary: if God is everywhere (at least,
>> his/her/its awareness is everywhere, on account of being omniscient),
then
>> isn't "church" wherever and however I choose to worship him? Maybe it's
>> okay if we just say a grace before breaking out the decks. :]
>
>The word church is from the greek eclesia which translates into "called out
>assembly". God is everywhere but he expects you to be in church, being
called out
>from the world, when it is time. "My church is wherever I am" is false
philosophy
>taught be people who would rather be fishing than in church. You should
check all
>the references in the Old and New Testements about the House of God before
blowing
>off church to crush villains.
>
>Love in Christ
>Kev
>
>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 03:22:46 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Villian groups
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Michael Nunn wrote;
> >>Humor me on this one!
> >>
> >> I like to construct scenarios with touches of current events and or people
> >> twisted enough to fit into a four color genre. Has anyone put together a
> >> villain group based on the Spice Girls? You have five different
> >> personalities that could be used to create five different villains banded
> >> together to promote "Girl Power."
> > Neat idea. But I'd probably do it as a corporate Hero Team
> >designed to promote a particular British record label by claiming to
> >be a dumbed up version of feminism.
> If you really wanted them to be like the SG's only 2 would actually have
> super powers the others would just look good and help out...
Okay, now, are you being bold by claiming that three o' the S-Girls
have no talent?
...or that two of them _do_?
-Capt. Spith (who - so kill me - LIKES the Spice Girls. But then I'm a
guy, aren't I?)
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 03:42:11 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Robert wrote:
> If you want the truth? I'd like to see Alex Ross do a cover and some
> interior done by George Perz, Adam Hughes, and John Byrne. I don't know if
> there is enough MONEY to get them to do this, but I think at least an Alex
> Ross cover would be worth the cost in terms of marketing. He's hot and and
> an INCREDIBLY talented artist.
> Oh well, its a nice pipe dream.
Oh, GAWD, yes! If Alex Ross did the cover, I'd pay $40 for it even
if I thought the entire contents were CRAP!
....
Oh dear... have I just shown my soft underbelly to the predator?
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 05:27:31 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Ha! I KNEW it!! Magic is EVIL!!!]
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 04:16 AM 12/14/97 -0700, Jeff O'Connor wrote:
>Kevin:
>
>I don't give one whit about your fundamentalist views where this mailing
>list is concerned. I think it is just peachy that you have reconciled your
>particular religious world-view with your hobbies, but frankly I really
>don't give a damn about the finer points of the former. Please keep your
>religious views out of this mailing list - while they have their place, the
>Champions mailing list really isn't it.
Much of the same should be directed at Vox...
---
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Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 09:31:46 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: RE: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Michael Sprague wrote:
> > But no interpretation of it that I've ever seen before you has ever
> > allowed non-proportional use, nor the use of the larger Power without the
> > use of the Linked Power. Those are *extremely* important balancers for
> > this Limitation.
>
> Then you haven't been around this argument long enough ... this is the
> first time I think I have read about forcing the powers to be proportional
> (though granted, I skipped the last two times Linked was debated).
I've read it a couple of times before, and I think it's always been
implicit. Without the proportionality rule, Linked is no Limitation at all
(and if you play that multiple Powers can't be used to attack together by
default, Linked on attack Powers becomes strictly advantageous). You're
quite correct that nothing in the BBB supports this, but it's a fairly
necessary house rule IMO.
OTOH, the idea that the non-Limited Power can't be used unless the Linked
Power is in use also isn't supported by the BBB, nor do I see it is
particularly fundamental. (I happen to play that way myself, but I don't
think Linked is totally broken if you play by the book in this regard.)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 09:35:57 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Captain Spith wrote:
> I really like the Perez cover, but am not opposed to a change. But
> the flavor should definitely be the same. Superheroes in action,
> probably one large 'splash page' scene.
> Or possibly a 5 or 6 panel comic-book page including a splash or
> dialog and a splash of action....
On the cover? Ick. Don't think I'd like the look of that much. The splash
page thing is definitely the way to go, though.
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 09:40:56 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
> One other note. Keep in mind that, primarily because of financial
> considerations, we are looking at printing the Hero System rules book
> separately, with Champions being a genre book. Champions would have the super
> power rules in there, as well as a *much* better treatment of the genre,
Wait... what "super power rules"? The Powers section is pretty fundamental
to the Hero System; you need it for pretty much any genre except for 100%
Realistic.
From: LLWatts <LLWatts@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:44:18 EST
Subject: Re: Greetings
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Hi everyone! Newbie-on-the-list alert!!
>>>>>>
> What would you like to see in our books (layout-wise)?
> Do you care what it looks like at all, as long as it's readable?
>
I think layout can make a big diferent in conveying a 'feeling'
for a document. For instance, look at V&V. The art of Jeff Dee has long
been part of why V&V holds it's cult following.
An even better example is WW's stuff. The art and layout in that
helped bring in a whole new type of gamer. For good or ill. :)
>>>>>>
Just don't get as carried away with the hunt for weird fonts as WW has. I had
to put a couple of their books back on the shelf because the intro section
gave me eyestrain.
>>>>>>
> What about side-bars (assuming they're actually used for something
besides
> light grayscale artwork)?
>
Sidebars are nice if used to reference additional side info on
a topic.
>>>>>>
If a topic will fit in _one_ sidebar, fine. If it takes three or four
sidebars to cover a topic, put it all in one place.
Leah
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 09:45:35 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Atmospheric FTL
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
> I know I'm in a minority on this, but I've never liked the construction of
> Teleportation for rapid movement.
> The first sentence of the description of teleport reads "A character with
> this Movement Power can disappear from one point and appear at another,
> without traveling in between." While I'm not a strict adherent to the
> "first sentence rule" (I use Summon to create things out of thin air, for
> example) the intent of this power seems fairly clear. Using it for rapid
> movement brings up lots of logical problems. Why should a superfast
> character have to have his or her destination memorized or in sight?
Yes, this is a problem. Allowing an Advantage on Teleport to allow blind
teleporting is possibly a good idea.
> Why does a Teleportation Suppression field stop the character from
> moving?
Now, to me this is evidence that "Suppress Teleport" is a nonsensical
construction, rather than evidence against using Teleport for this
purpose. Like Adjustment Powers, Suppress should always, always, always be
bought as affecting a special effect rather than a game mechanic.
> While I'm on the topic of FTL and Teleport, I wish there were a way to
> interface the two. It's very difficult to build an interplanetary
> teleporter, and certainly more costly than it's worth.
Wait - why can't "interplanetary teleporter" just be a special effect for
FTL?
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 05:49:36 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 03:17 PM 12/13/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< That Perez cover will be a hard one to top though!>>
>
> I take it you haven't seen the covers to SA:CoH or Sengoku, then. We don't
>plan on acquiring "mediocre" art for a 5th Ed. book, Michael. ;)
Leave in some mediocre art -- especially if it's Cris Cloutier's, or
otherwise suggestive of the Golden Age Era (which was characteristically
mediocre, but has a special place in the hearts of most if not all
superhero lovers).
> That brings up another question: What kind of illo would you folks like to
>see for the cover? A collage of different scenes? A comic-booky sort of illo
>(usually a fight scene)?
Actually, I'd like something similar to the cover of Champions Universe,
but with just a little more intensity.
> One other note. Keep in mind that, primarily because of financial
>considerations, we are looking at printing the Hero System rules book
>separately, with Champions being a genre book. Champions would have the super
>power rules in there, as well as a *much* better treatment of the genre,
>examples, no "official universe" inside (rather examples and notes on
creating
>several different types, etc., but the Hero System "core" rules would be in
>the Hero System rules book.
>
> I realize this may not be a popular decision, and I'm willing to hear well
>reasoned discussion for or against the idea. But please consider that
>reprinting the BBB as it is now would cost *us* a lot of money, and the
retail
>price would likely be $40 or more (and that for a softcover with no
>software!). We want folks to buy it, and the only way to keep the prices
>reasonable is to limit some of the content. This seems the most logical
way to
>do that.
Actually, I think you'll find this to be a very popular decision.
> In addition, future genre books would be published like the "new" Champions
>book, and we may even be able to publish revisions of older genre books
>(Fantasy Hero, anyone?).
Yet another very popular decision. :-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
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Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 09:52:46 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Fri, 12 Dec 1997, mcallahan wrote:
> >And of course, there's always the Quasar problem... he's a full-fledged
> >Avenger, has power rivalling the Silver Surfer's, and is immune to mental
> >manipulation (if the Overmind couldn't touch him, I don't think the
> >X-mentalists have any chance). You could clone each of the X-Men off 5
> >times and have them gang-pile him, and I still don't think they'd have
> >much chance.
>
> Hey, anybody remember a young lady named Phoenix (Jean or Rachel take
> your pick) I think she could take Quasar.
You're mistaken. Quasar has fought and beaten Rachel w/ Phoenix Force. Not
his easiest fight ever, but probably not his hardest either.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 05:52:49 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Slipperiness
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 03:49 PM 12/13/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>I'm all for the 5th ed. In addition to the various suggestions people have
>already made, I hope it includes either a "slipperiness" power or a
>revised Change Environment that can make an icy surface with combat
>effects. (My pet peeve.)
While assembling TUSV, I found a need to define some Power to do this.
I settled on a Minor Transform to change regular ground into slippery
ground. The SFX could be ice, an oil slick, or something else. (I even
have a sample vehicle with an icy slick device.)
---
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Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 09:02:40 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Ha! I KNEW it!! Magic is EVIL!!!]
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>Kevin:
>
>I don't give one whit about your fundamentalist views where this mailing
>list is concerned. I think it is just peachy that you have reconciled your
>particular religious world-view with your hobbies, but frankly I really
>don't give a damn about the finer points of the former. Please keep your
>religious views out of this mailing list - while they have their place, the
>Champions mailing list really isn't it.
>
>Thank You.
Ah, you forgot to include Tim Gilberg in on this reproach. He was just as
guilty of (off-topically) expousing a religious belief and arguing the finer
points of theology. Reprimand only one person and you pretty much take
sides, neh?
And if anyone's wondering, I'm a Christian...but don't think that theology
should be argued on this list.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:03:51 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Fri, 12 Dec 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
> >I see no support for this in the rules. If a Power has "Extra Time - 1
> >Phase", it means just that... it takes an _extra_ phase.
> I think *my* confusion may have stemmed from "Extra Time - *Full* Phase"
> which is how it is actually stated (emphasis mine).
Yeah, that is odd. Possibly there was originally a "Half Phase" level on
the chart as well? (It would make sense to have it at the -1/4 level, but
it would cause confusion when combined with the "half value" option of
Extra Time.)
> This led *me* (and possibly Mr. Gilberg) to believe that this simply
> extended the time of activation, not that it was an additive.
The problem with this is that it makes no sense to me that turning a
1/2-Phase action into a Full Phase action should be the same level of
Limitation as turning a 0-Phase action into a Full Phase action.
(Except "Full Phase action" is misleading, since you explicitly can do
other things during the activation time.)
> In the text description of the Limitation, it mentions a power that
> takes a month (not a month-and-a-phase) to activate.
Well, at that level the distinction is pretty much irrelevant. "Month and
a phase" would just sound silly.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 06:06:38 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 12:06 AM 12/14/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< Hmmm, any plans to go overseas? Australia, maybe? *g* I expect it'd
>be quite a stretch. .. . .>>
>
> Not much of a stretch at all. If an Australian distributor would pout in an
>order for products, we'd fill it.
Would he have to pout? Wouldn't a friendly smile be just as effective,
if not more so? ;-]
---
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Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:10:02 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Avengers vs. X-Men
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Fri, 12 Dec 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
> >But of course, this was back when she has a villain. When she actually
> >joined the X-Men something had to be done because let's face it - somebody
> >who can handle Thor would also mop up most of the X-Men's villains
> >singlehandedly in pretty short order. Since joining the heroes, I can only
> >think of a few times when she's tried to use her absorption ability on an
> >adversary - and offhand, I can't think of even a single time when it
> >actually _worked_.
> >
> Spider-Man Team-Up (or was it Marvel Team-Up?) #100 (I think). Spider-man
> and the X-men v. Juggernaut and Black Tom (who had part of the Juggernaut
> power. Rogue absorbed the Juggy power from Caine, and went berserk as she
> was taken over by his memories. Granted, that may not be "worked" by your
> definition... <g>
It isn't. Given that Rogue can be overwhelmed by a mental midget like
Juggernaut and given that Thor, when his personality was absorbed by the
Destroyer and even the freaking Demogorge, was able to assert control, I
have difficulty believing she could successfully handle Thor.
> Wasn't there a time where she absorbed Colossus, Nightcrawler, and Kitty
> Pryde's powers to beat some big baddy? Was that the Brood?
That's why I explicitly referred to her trying to absorb an _adversary_.
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:15:03 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Fri, 12 Dec 1997, Rook wrote:
> 1. Add an advantage called "Advantaged" which would be the exact
> counterpart to "Limited".
Bad idea IMO. There's no need for it given an adequate set of Powers and
Advantages.
> 7. Steal a few of the advatages from GURPS, like Richocet.
What would that be used for?
> 12. Present options for both versions of linked. As well as a 'Combine'
> advantage, or at least a suggestion on why not to have such an advantage
> and how to otherwise achieve said special effect (ie: multipower slots
> or whatever.)
The system is considerably better balanced if you make "combinable" the
default, IMO.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 06:15:45 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 08:12 PM 12/13/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>>>>> "AJ" == Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> writes:
>
>AJ> Actually, it does; its just that the target of an aid ordinarily
>AJ> _wants_ to be hit, and thus pending extreme circumstances the attack
>AJ> roll can be assumed to be successful.
>
>An attack roll is part of the process of making an attack. If you do not
>roll it, you have not made an attack.
Hold on a sec... what about breaking out of an Entangle? I was being
mostly facetious before about the sky having a DCV, but a character using
STR or an attack Power (if you should pardon the expression) to break out
of an Entangle is a case of an attack that doesn't require an Attack Roll.
I'd have to search for it, but I think attacking someone who is
completely immobile at point-blank range also can be done without an Attack
Roll.
---
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Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 09:15:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Ha! I KNEW it!! Magic is EVIL!!!]
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, John and Ron Prins wrote:
> And if anyone's wondering, I'm a Christian...but don't think that theology
> should be argued on this list.
The same here. The HML is for Hero System discussion (and to a lesser
extent superhero and other RPG genre off topic discussions), not theology.
There are plent of newsgroups out there to join if you want that.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 06:26:02 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Metahuman Rights (was: [Fwd: Ha! I KNEW it!! Magic is
EVIL!!!])
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 05:15 PM 12/13/97 -0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>At 12:30 PM 12/13/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>> It seems to me that this whole thread is even more pathetic and
>>irrelavent than if my post on "green people's rights" had been serious.
>> We've been over this topic before, people. Far too often. It only gets
>>acrimonious (in fact, it started that way this time), and it has
>>*absolutely nothing* to do with Champions or the Hero System. (Whereas my
>>"Green Rights" post could be taken by someone with a humorous bent, or with
>>a thought toward creating an alien rights' group in his campaign.)
>>
>Okay. : )
>Can we talk about that, then? I wasn't thinking "aliens" so much (there
>are none in my game world), but I was thinking of metahuman (or mutant)
>rights groups. I have "Equal Rights for the Genetically Different" but I
>haven't come up with anything specific for them. I know that at least one
>of the high-profile metahumans is supporting them, but I don't really have
>an agenda for them, besides opposing them Metahuman Registration Bill as
>unconstitutional. Any suggestions?
You could kinda take a cue from my satiric diatribe, and have them do a
lot of the same stuff that real-world minority-rights groups do. They
would bring attention to negative media stereotyping, lobby legislators for
metahuman-rights legislation, and stuff like that. Legislation they'd
support would include Equal Opportunity laws, special investigations of
liability insurance ripoffs, and in some cases treatment as a "special
minority."
Metahuman rights could even be represented by different groups with
different degrees of extremism. A more moderate group would seek nothing
more than equanimity, while a more radical group would chant slogans and
demand recognition and protection for their "alternative lifestyle."
(I tend to use mutants as an allegory for racial discrimination, and
paranormals in general as an allegory for gay rights, at least where these
kinds of political issues are concerned.)
>ps - Bob, that Green thing... are you green? I ain't buyin' no book
>written by no Greeny!
Only during the springtime, and even then only if it's dry and windy...
---
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Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 09:36:43 -0500
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org>
Subject: CHAR: KARZA DRONES
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> > Exactly how? I would probably give a very light Lim. Maybe a -1/2 at
> > most. Could you illuminate me on this?
>
> Basically, the character is getting a cost break on something that isn't
> very limiting. Sure, you can't recover or move during those phases, but
> (usually) you can still attack. Not a real big limit.
>
> Now, if a pilot had a 3 SPD with +2 SPD only while flying a plane (so he
> could use an F-15 to it fullest qualities, that would be different.
It seems to me this is more a question of determining the right Limiation
value; it sounds you might well consider it not a limitation in some
circumstances where some people would.
Geoff Speare
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:43:01 -0600
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net
Organization: None
Subject: Incomplete Character Rules
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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I have never seen this. Where can I find it?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
What do you mean she is dead? All I did was shoot her in the head with
my 4d6 RKA? How can she be dead?
Actually said by one of my players.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 06:49:38 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV and Energy Conversions
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 01:39 AM 12/14/97 -0500, Len Carpenter wrote:
>>Say, you wouldn't happen to have handy the conversions for joules into,
>>say, degrees of heat or ampres of electricity and such, would you?
>>
>So Bob Greenwade asks. Gimme a minute while I dig out my old college
>physics text.
[Lots of beautiful hard work snipped]
Thanks, Len. I'm sorry I gave the impression that I wanted it for TUSV;
this information is really more fitting for The Ultimate Energy Projector.
But I will try to see that the information sees a source location
somewhere (probably my website, if nothing else).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 06:54:30 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Villian groups
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 12:44 AM 12/14/97 +0000, Brian Wong wrote:
>>
>> can anyone out there spell 'gestalt'?
>>
> Hmm.
>There's one for the 'fifth edition'. A 'Combine' Power.
>Two or more people with this power can combine into a greater whole.
>
>Unless it's better just doing in reverse with multiform and duplication...
This will be in TUSV. How could it not be?
I took a cue from Robot Warriors, and worked it up as a variant on
Multiform, where each of the individual forms (having together more points
than the Combined form) pay an equal share of the cost.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 06:56:46 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Yet Another Power Problem...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 03:34 PM 12/13/97 -0800, Lizard wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>Reading through some of my TSR stuff, I came upon an interesting
>spell which I thought would be good to convert to Fantasy Hero.
>However, I'm having trouble working it out, and it's a broad enough
>concept that a general mechanic is needed.
>
>The spell, basically, creates a mouth with sharp pointy teeth on an
>inanimate object, most usually a bag or sack. Thief reaches into bag,
>gets hand chomped (call it a 1d6 HKA). How to do this as a spell?
>
>Focus? Not really:The spell must be cast on an object, but the focus
>is a handful of teeth. The bag isn't really a focus for the casting,
>just a target.
The teeth aren't the Focus; I don't think I'd use the Focus limitation
at all (unless that's a Material component for the Spell).
>Transform? The all-purpose catch all. I'd like to avoid it.
>
>Independant? No, the spell expires after one bite, and the caster can
>re-cast it multiple times without trouble.
You are correct in saying no to these.
>Basically, I'm looking for a mechanic that gives a third party a one-
>shot or charge-shot use of a power, with the actual mechanic for
>creating that power as a seperate thing. That is, I need to gesture,
>incant, and hold some teeth to give the 'bite' power to a bag, but
>the bag doesn't need to gesture, incant, etc, to use it -- and the
>'power' goes away under a set of conditions. Further, I don't think
>such a temporary usage should require permenant expenditure of
>character points with each use of the power-granting-power.
>
>It looks like some kind of 'usable by others' is being called for
>here, with one 'power' to grant the other power. Isn't there
>something in Almanac I about this?
Try RKA, No Range, Trigger.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 07:06:44 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 08:37 AM 12/14/97 -0800, Michael Sprague wrote:
>> But no interpretation of it that I've ever seen before you has ever
>> allowed non-proportional use, nor the use of the larger Power without the
>> use of the Linked Power. Those are *extremely* important balancers for
>> this Limitation.
>
>Then you haven't been around this argument long enough ... this is the
>first time I think I have read about forcing the powers to be proportional
>(though granted, I skipped the last two times Linked was debated). There
>is _nothing_ in the book to even imply that the Linked powers must be used
>proportionally. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, it's not ... just that
>since it's not in the book, and thus would be a house ruling.
Basically what you have then, if I'm remembering your arguments
correctly, is a Limitation that forces you to do no more than activate
another Power and spend at least 1 END on it, even if you don't actually
use it, if you want to use the Limited Power, all for a -1/2 Limitation --
the same as if the Power with the Limitation cost 2X END to use.
Is it just me, or is there something wrong with this picture?
>The concept that the larger Power must also use the Linked Power is pure
>bull, and had nothing to do with balancing the Limitation. If you applied
>the Limitation to both powers, then I could see your point. But since you
>don't I just can't agree.
But you *can't* apply the Limitation to the larger Power; that is quite
explicitly stated.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:40:36 -0700
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
Subject: Lesson in humility (and irony)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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A bit a background then the situation.
The GM ran (at my request) a major plot for my character a while ago. My
character was a Martial Artist with 'Darkforce' powers (reminescent of
Marvel's). It was played that she was killed, brought back, got
possessed by the intelligence in her powers, went psycho, got depowered,
put in jail, pardoned and is now a strait MA superhero. I GMed the two
sessions where Black Cat (my HERO) was psycho. I built a pretty
obnoxious version of her, with GM approval, to be a challange for the
team. All this was about 6-8 months ago. There was also, a bit later, a
plot involving a clone of one of the heros.
Last nights adventure... We were investigation a series of murders,
obviously Super; killing normals. A number of the powers could be
similar to those that the team had. The final murder, the person was
killed in a very distinctive way (the life was sucked out, and left a
dessicated shell). This has been seen before, when Cat was psycho (she
killed someone that way then). We then thought that someone cloned Cat
with genetic material prior to when she was depowered. The team
(consisting of 6 heroes) go investigate. Two of them are dropped in
seconds. We get out of there, reconsider and go back in. Again by
segment three half the group had been nuetrilized. Then we got lucky,
and got in a few good shots, and had one of the nastiest fights we had
ever had (it gave us a harder time than the low end Destroyer). It turns
out the darkforce that my character had, had gotten it's own ability to
move and act, rather than doing through a person.
After the fight I asked about the monstrosity the GM built and was
informed "I didn't built it, you did. I just used your writeup of the
psycho Cat and added a few things for Special Effects." oops.
Now, you tell me, is it fair to use a that thing I built (a little, no
a lot munchkin) back on us. 8)
--
-Mhoram
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your
two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:45:43 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> > I take it you haven't seen the covers to SA:CoH or Sengoku, then. We don't
> >plan on acquiring "mediocre" art for a 5th Ed. book, Michael. ;)
>
> Leave in some mediocre art -- especially if it's Cris Cloutier's, or
> otherwise suggestive of the Golden Age Era (which was characteristically
> mediocre, but has a special place in the hearts of most if not all
> superhero lovers).
I would not call Chris Cloutier's art mediocre. It is certainly a lot
more dynamic and creative than Mark Williams stuff ever was (that was
mediocre), and if spends some time on the peice it can turn out excellent.
I still say that Madame Moonlight has one of the best costume designs in
all of the Champions books.
I think Chris's only real drawback is his stuff may be a touch too
'cartoony' for most books.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
From: Michael Sprague <msprague@eznet.net>
Subject: RE: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:37:01 -0800
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>> At 08:29 PM 12/10/97 -0800, Michael Sprague wrote:
>> As far as other's comments go about making you use them linked powers
>> proportionately, that's potentially a very good idea for a house rule
...
>> so long as one is not forced to use the linked power when one uses the
>> non-limited power it is linked to.
>
> Now, hold on there. That's exactly what the Linked Limitation *does.*
> It says so right there in the description.
Well, then you have a different set of rules than I do. Mine (the 4th
ed.BBB and the soft cover) say no such thing, and it's a real stretch to
imply it.
> If a larger power "Does Not Work Under Certain Circumstances," then any
> Power that's Linked to it should have it as well. I can think of no
reason
> not to.
Then think a little harder. There are plenty of reasons why the large
power might not work but the power linked to it could ... if it weren't
linked. Your simply combining two different powers here, and each can have
it's own SFX, Advantages and Limitations. I can see no reason why the
_must_ be the same.
> But no interpretation of it that I've ever seen before you has ever
> allowed non-proportional use, nor the use of the larger Power without the
> use of the Linked Power. Those are *extremely* important balancers for
> this Limitation.
Then you haven't been around this argument long enough ... this is the
first time I think I have read about forcing the powers to be proportional
(though granted, I skipped the last two times Linked was debated). There
is _nothing_ in the book to even imply that the Linked powers must be used
proportionally. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, it's not ... just that
since it's not in the book, and thus would be a house ruling.
The concept that the larger Power must also use the Linked Power is pure
bull, and had nothing to do with balancing the Limitation. If you applied
the Limitation to both powers, then I could see your point. But since you
don't I just can't agree.
~ Mike
From: Michael Sprague <msprague@eznet.net>
Subject: RE: Cardboard Heroes
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:51:45 -0800
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
I would rather get them as a separate product ... especially if they were
the common villains found in the Enemies books.
On a different note, I was thinking about making some of these myself, and
putting them somewhere on the net for everyone to use. Obviously I could
not use existing heroes without permission. I even bought a software
package that looks like it would be good for this (Poser 2, by Fractal
Design), but due to time constraints (job, house and 2 year old) I have not
had the time to set down and figure out how to use this software.
-----Original Message-----
From: GoldRushG [SMTP:GoldRushG@aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 1997 12:18 PM
To: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Cardboard Heroes
Since it seems that the majority of folks (onthis list, anyway) would
like
to see more cardboard minis, let me ask you this: Would you be willing to
pay
an extra $2 for a book that had them included?
Mark @ GRG
From: "Jeff O'Connor" <jtoc@msn.com>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Ha! I KNEW it!! Magic is EVIL!!!]
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 09:52:59 -0700
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John and Ron:
I'm not taking sides, nor do I care what your religious persuasion is. I
think we're in agreement on what the purpose of this list is, so let's leave
it at that please.
Thank You.
-----Original Message-----
From: John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net>
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Sunday, December 14, 1997 7:21 AM
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Ha! I KNEW it!! Magic is EVIL!!!]
>>Kevin:
>>
>>I don't give one whit about your fundamentalist views where this mailing
>>list is concerned. I think it is just peachy that you have reconciled
your
>>particular religious world-view with your hobbies, but frankly I really
>>don't give a damn about the finer points of the former. Please keep your
>>religious views out of this mailing list - while they have their place,
the
>>Champions mailing list really isn't it.
>>
>>Thank You.
>
>Ah, you forgot to include Tim Gilberg in on this reproach. He was just as
>guilty of (off-topically) expousing a religious belief and arguing the
finer
>points of theology. Reprimand only one person and you pretty much take
>sides, neh?
>
>And if anyone's wondering, I'm a Christian...but don't think that theology
>should be argued on this list.
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
>"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the
power
>to back up his sickening platitudes!"
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
>John D. Prins
>jprins@interhop.net
>
>
From: "Jeff O'Connor" <jtoc@msn.com>
Subject: Re: Lesson in humility (and irony)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 09:59:25 -0700
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LIfe isn't always fair. Or maybe I should say GMs aren't.
To be honest, though, I don't see where he is out of line - it seems he just
took an idea and ran with it, munchkin or not. GMs do that all the time.
-----Original Message-----
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Sunday, December 14, 1997 9:10 AM
Subject: Lesson in humility (and irony)
>A bit a background then the situation.
>
>The GM ran (at my request) a major plot for my character a while ago. My
>character was a Martial Artist with 'Darkforce' powers (reminescent of
>Marvel's). It was played that she was killed, brought back, got
>possessed by the intelligence in her powers, went psycho, got depowered,
>put in jail, pardoned and is now a strait MA superhero. I GMed the two
>sessions where Black Cat (my HERO) was psycho. I built a pretty
>obnoxious version of her, with GM approval, to be a challange for the
>team. All this was about 6-8 months ago. There was also, a bit later, a
>plot involving a clone of one of the heros.
>
>
>Last nights adventure... We were investigation a series of murders,
>obviously Super; killing normals. A number of the powers could be
>similar to those that the team had. The final murder, the person was
>killed in a very distinctive way (the life was sucked out, and left a
>dessicated shell). This has been seen before, when Cat was psycho (she
>killed someone that way then). We then thought that someone cloned Cat
>with genetic material prior to when she was depowered. The team
>(consisting of 6 heroes) go investigate. Two of them are dropped in
>seconds. We get out of there, reconsider and go back in. Again by
>segment three half the group had been nuetrilized. Then we got lucky,
>and got in a few good shots, and had one of the nastiest fights we had
>ever had (it gave us a harder time than the low end Destroyer). It turns
>out the darkforce that my character had, had gotten it's own ability to
>move and act, rather than doing through a person.
>
>After the fight I asked about the monstrosity the GM built and was
>informed "I didn't built it, you did. I just used your writeup of the
>psycho Cat and added a few things for Special Effects." oops.
>
>Now, you tell me, is it fair to use a that thing I built (a little, no
>a lot munchkin) back on us. 8)
>--
>-Mhoram
>Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your
> two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright
>
From: "Jeff O'Connor" <jtoc@msn.com>
Subject: Fatale Five
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:06:14 -0700
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No - but I do have a group called the Fatale (as in Fem Fatale) Five that
runs around my campaign setting. They're five super-powered womyn with
great bodies and bad attitudes who like to put the more mysogenistic
villians AND heroes in their place. This, and their tendancy to play Robin
Hood for women writ large has put them on both sides of the law.
-----Original Message-----
From: John Stefanski <jstefanski@internetMCI.com>
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Saturday, December 13, 1997 3:02 PM
Subject: Villian groups
>Humor me on this one!
>
>I like to construct scenarios with touches of current events and or people
>twisted enough to fit into a four color genre. Has anyone put together a
>villain group based on the Spice Girls? You have five different
>personalities that could be used to create five different villains banded
>together to promote "Girl Power."
>
>JS
>
>================
>JS Stefanski
>There can BE only one.
>You'll be dead.
>Hey, let's build a raft.
>We need a spelunker.
>================
>
>
From: "Jeff O'Connor" <jtoc@msn.com>
Cc: <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Villian groups
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:10:35 -0700
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On a SLIGHTLY more serious note - that response is actually good. Faux
heroes and villians are great plot devices - generally excellent hooks for
conspiracy stories.
Personally, I think the Spice Girls are conspiring to make Milli Vanilli and
the New Kids on the Block look like real bands by comparison - just my
opinion, though.
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Sunday, December 14, 1997 12:46 AM
Subject: Re: Villian groups
> Humor me on this one!
>>>
>>> I like to construct scenarios with touches of current events and or
people
>>> twisted enough to fit into a four color genre. Has anyone put together a
>>> villain group based on the Spice Girls? You have five different
>>> personalities that could be used to create five different villains
banded
>>> together to promote "Girl Power."
>>>
>> Neat idea. But I'd probably do it as a corporate Hero Team
>>designed to promote a particular British record label by claiming to
>>be a dumbed up version of feminism.
>
>If you really wanted them to be like the SG's only 2 would actually have
>super powers the others would just look good and help out...
>Rising Force Publications
>Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...
>http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm
>
>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:11:18 +0000
From: Chris Brecken <Christopher.Brecken@sunderland.ac.uk>
Subject: Back from the Dead
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Hi there, I once had a charcter in another system with a power i would
like to model in champs.
It went somthing along these lines...
Anytime the charcter died, a fresh clone would be released from the
vats, and programmed with the memories of the previous clone and sent on
his way.
Only one clone could be in exsistance at a time due to quirk, that ment
that if two did exsist, then due to the mental link that would
exsist,they would both go mad very quickly...
every so often the current clone would drop into the facilities, to have
a backup of him memories made to imprint a new cloe if it became
neccessary...
In effect, every time the charcter died, all he lost was the memories
between the last recording and his death.
Any idears on how to model this in champs...
Chris
--
"Don't put your trust in foolish promises sworn.
Nor cryptic message scrawled upon every wall"
Tony Clarkin,
The Spirit
X-Sender: naneiden@iswest.com
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 11:09:33 -0800
From: Nic Neidenbach <naneiden@iswest.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 12:06 AM 12/14/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< The other comment is "No more hard covers" In my group we have 5
copies of
>the BBB all 5 have fallen apart. >>
>
> That was the fault f the printer. The reprinting of the BBB in "Champions
>Deluxe" has a much higher quality stitch, "textbook"-style binding. Mine has
>not fallen apart. Actually, none of the 1,000 or so copies I have have fallen
>apart. <LOL> No complaints from distributors or customers, either.
Yeah, there was a bad batch of books printed way back. But from what I
heard at the time, if you sent your book back to ICE, they replaced it,
which seems fair. I bought mine when it first came out, but mine hasn't
fallen apart, so I don't think all of them were poorly done.
-Nic
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:15:10 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editio
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> Have you seen the Incomplete rules.... they change the way Vehicles,
> Bases, Automatons, and Computers work. Those are pretty much minor
> sidelines to hero 4th, hardly 'most of 4th ed.' In fact, what they
> do is make the fairly wierd, cobbled-together systems used for those
> things work with the standard character build system.
>
> They also open up the possiblity of a lot of different character
> types...
Yeah, I saw them. But I felt the feel wasn't quite right for my
campaign. They are a nice set of side-rules, maybe even worthy of
HSA-type of unnofficial rules.
> Oh, or are you just talking about 'extensive changes' in general?
> Sorry...
Basically. Keep things as close to 4th ed as possible. No
changes to characteristic costs. Powers that are changed better do so for
a damn good reason. Keep things the way they are with more definition,
more explination, and more examples.
> I think the level of change between 3rd and 4th could be tollerated
> (though that level of change isn't actualy nescisary, it's just
> a few problems that need to be ironed out (like linked) :)
Perhaps, to avoid the firestorm. It should be presented, and
explained, both ways. I'd personally like to see a change in the value of
the disadvantage with different levels for attack and non-attack powers.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:19:13 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage o
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> Huh? How would using two attacks at the same time change thier
> F/X? I mean, if Iron Man fires Repulsors and Unibeam at the
> same time, they're still Repulsors and it's still the Unibeam,
> they not sudenly Unipulsors or Mutant-powered eyebeams or
> anything...
But as you are attacking with one attack roll the mix of powers
has become only one. There must be a gestalt SFX.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:23:28 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage o
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> I guess you didn't notice that the Multipower in question
> doesn't end up costing much more (or even slightly less -
> a whole 1 pt less in the example I posted)
> than just buying two powers straight up...
I noticed, but that's not actually the point. MPs are designed to
give a savings for related powers, even if it doesn't say that in
their description. If a character wants an EB, a flash, and a metapower
EB+flash in a MP, no problem. I'd say it works.
-Tim Gilberg
From: Michael Sprague <msprague@eznet.net>
Subject: RE: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 11:24:43 -0800
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>>> But no interpretation of it that I've ever seen before you has ever
>>> allowed non-proportional use, nor the use of the larger Power without
the
>>> use of the Linked Power. Those are *extremely* important balancers for
>>> this Limitation.
>>
>>Then you haven't been around this argument long enough ... this is the
>>first time I think I have read about forcing the powers to be
proportional
>>(though granted, I skipped the last two times Linked was debated). There
>>is _nothing_ in the book to even imply that the Linked powers must be
used
>>proportionally. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, it's not ... just that
>>since it's not in the book, and thus would be a house ruling.
>
> Basically what you have then, if I'm remembering your arguments
> correctly, is a Limitation that forces you to do no more than activate
> another Power and spend at least 1 END on it, even if you don't actually
> use it, if you want to use the Limited Power, all for a -1/2 Limitation
--
> the same as if the Power with the Limitation cost 2X END to use.
> Is it just me, or is there something wrong with this picture?
I am not disagreeing with your conclusions (most of them, that is), I am
just saying that there is nothing in the _book_ that even implies that the
Powers must be proportional. I am seriously thinking about updating my
house rules to state that the "Linked Power" must be used in the same
proportion as the "Large power."
The reverse is not the case, however, since the larger power can still be
used on it's own.
>>The concept that the larger Power must also use the Linked Power is pure
>>bull, and had nothing to do with balancing the Limitation. If you
applied
>>the Limitation to both powers, then I could see your point. But since
you
>>don't I just can't agree.
>
> But you *can't* apply the Limitation to the larger Power; that is quite
>explicitly stated.
Exactly!! And that is the _only_ thing it says about the larger power!!
It says nothing about the Larger Power being tied to the smaller power.
It says nothing about the larger Power being unusable without using the
smaller power. The only reason this is even mentioned in the rules is that
it would be an even worse "points crock" if you allowed a large Power to be
linked to a small power, so that the large power received the points
advantage.
The only way it really makes sense to say "both powers always have to be
used together" would be if _both_ powers received the Limitation, and that
is against the rules.
- - -
The bottom line though, is how well does it play. Yes, the GM should take
a careful look at anything with Linked attached to it, but if this is such
a terrible thing, why don't I seem more abuse than I do? We have two
serious point's munchkins in our group, and they rarely use Linked. We
have not found it to be a problem.
For that matter, we do allow powers to be "stacked" into one attack, for
the reasons Rat puts forth. We have never found it to be abusive. Most
people can't do it because the END is prohibitive. It is usually only used
for "final strikes," where the character knows he is going down.
As a player, I can play this anyway that has been put forth, with the
exception of saying that the "Larger Power" can't be used unless you use
the "Linked Power."
~ Mike
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:32:03 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Ha! I KNEW it!! Magic is EVIL!!!]
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> Ah, you forgot to include Tim Gilberg in on this reproach. He was just as
> guilty of (off-topically) expousing a religious belief and arguing the finer
> points of theology. Reprimand only one person and you pretty much take
> sides, neh?
Yeah, I went off. But I don't like some smug a-hole with
sickening moral nuggets of how I'm going to hell because I don't believe
what some religious leaders culled from a mythological work.
>
> And if anyone's wondering, I'm a Christian...but don't think that theology
> should be argued on this list.
True. But remember that the trying-to-be-a-missionary christian
started the whole damn thing. I personally like some of the philosophies
forwarded in the bible -- particularly those of the later part of Jeremiah
and Jesus' philosophy from the Sermon on the Mount. I thought Paul messed
up a pretty good thing, however.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:43:28 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
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> > 12. Present options for both versions of linked. As well as a 'Combine'
> > advantage, or at least a suggestion on why not to have such an advantage
> > and how to otherwise achieve said special effect (ie: multipower slots
> > or whatever.)
>
> The system is considerably better balanced if you make "combinable" the
> default, IMO.
Fine and dandy. However, as you said, that's your opinion. The
other side doesn't agree at all.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 12:32:49 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Extra Time on a Triggered Power
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-- ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net wrote:
>
> One of the characters in my campaign is using an INT Drain which
> takes 5 minutes to prepare, but it is also built with a Trigger, so
> that it can be delivered in combat; essentially, she has to inject
> a potion into someone for the drug to take effect.
>
> Is anybody else as bugged by this as I am? I don't think that the
> Extra Time should be worth the full limitation in these
> circumstances. How do you handle injectible drugs in your campaigns?
That is the primary use of trigger. A player sets up a power,
HOWEVER LONG IT TAKES. All endurance is paid at this time. At some
later time, an event triggers the power, in this case injecting a drug.
She must still make an attack role and overcome any other limitations
that the power may have, presumably bare skin or whatever to inject
through.
Of course, once the power is expended, the start up time must be
followed. It is not specified that the player can only have one
triggered power set at one time. That would have to be up to GM's to
decide how many "charges" can be set up at once.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 12:37:59 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Lesson in humility (and irony)
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Curtis Gibson wrote:
> After the fight I asked about the monstrosity the GM built and was
> informed "I didn't built it, you did. I just used your writeup of the
> psycho Cat and added a few things for Special Effects." oops.
>
> Now, you tell me, is it fair to use a that thing I built (a little, no
> a lot munchkin) back on us. 8)
Not only was it fair, it was commendable! First of all, you had GM
approval to run the character yourself in the first place; not even all
NPCs would have GM OK as PCs. Secondly, and most importantly, it was
fine storytelling, as he took an element from the game and developed it
further. This is what a lot the less imaginative games lack. Some
games will have an adventure, run it through, then never hear of it
again; bringing back characters, events and reprecussions from the past
help players feel more connected to their world, and lets them know that
their prescence makes a difference. Okay, not always a positive one....
In my game, one of the PCs was recruited by Slug for the Elder Worm
(from Classic Enemies) when the player wanted to stop playing him.
Soon, the Mighty Mosquito (his ex-PC - no, it's not a 'silly' game, just
a silly moniker) will be leading a renewed attack against the current
team for the glory of the Elder Worm. Actually, the player is looking
forward to it....
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 15:54:31 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: RE: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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At 07:06 AM 12/14/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 08:37 AM 12/14/97 -0800, Michael Sprague wrote:
>>> But no interpretation of it that I've ever seen before you has ever
>>> allowed non-proportional use, nor the use of the larger Power without the
>>> use of the Linked Power. Those are *extremely* important balancers for
>>> this Limitation.
>>
>>Then you haven't been around this argument long enough ... this is the
>>first time I think I have read about forcing the powers to be proportional
>>(though granted, I skipped the last two times Linked was debated). There
>>is _nothing_ in the book to even imply that the Linked powers must be used
>>proportionally. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, it's not ... just that
>>since it's not in the book, and thus would be a house ruling.
>
> Basically what you have then, if I'm remembering your arguments
>correctly, is a Limitation that forces you to do no more than activate
>another Power and spend at least 1 END on it, even if you don't actually
>use it, if you want to use the Limited Power, all for a -1/2 Limitation --
>the same as if the Power with the Limitation cost 2X END to use.
> Is it just me, or is there something wrong with this picture?
>
Yep. That's the same thing I noticed when he first said it.
>>The concept that the larger Power must also use the Linked Power is pure
>>bull, and had nothing to do with balancing the Limitation. If you applied
>>the Limitation to both powers, then I could see your point. But since you
>>don't I just can't agree.
>
> But you *can't* apply the Limitation to the larger Power; that is quite
>explicitly stated.
>
Man, you're on the ball. I feel so much better that you agree with me.
This is the main reasont that I treat Linked as the "ultra-power"
combination of the two powers, and allow the -1/4 Limitation for "may only
be used with X Power."
- Jerry
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 12:57:31 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Attack Rolls(Was Link: yadda yadda)
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
> Hold on a sec... what about breaking out of an Entangle? I was being
> mostly facetious before about the sky having a DCV, but a character using
> STR or an attack Power (if you should pardon the expression) to break out
> of an Entangle is a case of an attack that doesn't require an Attack Roll.
> I'd have to search for it, but I think attacking someone who is
> completely immobile at point-blank range also can be done without an Attack
> Roll.
I'm pretty sure that a completely immobile target still requires an
attack roll, but is at DCV 0. Usually, 'gimme' attacks like that in my
game are handled real quickly; attacker rolls 1D6, then if it's not a
'6' (thus the attack roll would not be 18), it's a hit.
But Entangles are In Contact with the character already. Making an
attack roll would be like making an attack roll in order to touch your
clothes to activate Instant Change or something. If you are Already In
Contact with something, you don't have to roll an attack roll. OK,
maybe if you had to haul back your fist to strike someone you were
holding with your other hand; then roll at 0 DCV, but to simply exert
STR on something that you are already in contact with needs no roll.
Breaking out of a Hold (re; BBB page 154) requires no attack roll,
simply STR vs. STR contest. An Entangly - in this respect - acts just
as a grab, using Def+Body as the Entangle's 'BODY done by STR'.
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:11:54 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Slipperiness
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> At 03:49 PM 12/13/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
> >I'm all for the 5th ed. In addition to the various suggestions people have
> >already made, I hope it includes either a "slipperiness" power or a
> >revised Change Environment that can make an icy surface with combat
> >effects. (My pet peeve.)
>
> While assembling TUSV, I found a need to define some Power to do this.
> I settled on a Minor Transform to change regular ground into slippery
> ground. The SFX could be ice, an oil slick, or something else. (I even
> have a sample vehicle with an icy slick device.)
Of course, this still requires a definition of what slick ground
does. I recall a dabate on what mechanics would/could be used to
represent slipperyness, but don't remember if there were any popular
results.
I feel that the machanics of such a thing are much more to the point
than the mechanism; once the resulting machanics are known, crafting
the power to implement them is relatively simple.
I state openly and unabashedly at this time that I have NO idea how
to properly define slipperyness myself....
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:13:49 -0800
From: James Jandebeur <jimalj@best.com>
Subject: Re: Incomplete Rules (was 5t
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That's true!
> Post comments to the list or email jimalj@best.com (he won't
> mind, really).
JAJ, Rules Philosopher
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:13:49 -0800
From: James Jandebeur <jimalj@best.com>
Subject: Re: Incomplete Rules (was 5t
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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That's true!
> Post comments to the list or email jimalj@best.com (he won't
> mind, really).
JAJ, Rules Philosopher
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:17:31 -0800
From: James Jandebeur <jimalj@best.com>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editio
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> r > Yes please. That cover needs a facelift.
> r >
You mean the one done by George Perez? With Seeker jumping to attack Dr.
Destroyer (presumably without effect and a lot of pain on Seeker's side)?
Why does it need to be changed?
JAJ, Rules Philosopher
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:17:31 -0800
From: James Jandebeur <jimalj@best.com>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editio
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> r > Yes please. That cover needs a facelift.
> r >
You mean the one done by George Perez? With Seeker jumping to attack Dr.
Destroyer (presumably without effect and a lot of pain on Seeker's side)?
Why does it need to be changed?
JAJ, Rules Philosopher
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:31:14 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Yet Another Power Problem...
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bobby farris wrote:
>
> Lizard wrote:
> >
> > Reading through some of my TSR stuff, I came upon an interesting
> > spell which I thought would be good to convert to Fantasy Hero.
> > However, I'm having trouble working it out, and it's a broad enough
> > concept that a general mechanic is needed.
> >
> > The spell, basically, creates a mouth with sharp pointy teeth on an
> > inanimate object, most usually a bag or sack. Thief reaches into bag,
> > gets hand chomped (call it a 1d6 HKA). How to do this as a spell?
>
> I don't know how others would do it, but I would require the mage to
> cast the spell on the item, say a small pouch.
> The small pouch would then become a magical item with the following:
> 1d6 HKA Damage shield, Trigger: When someone other than owner reaches
> into the pouch. 1 Charge, Hard to recover (requires re-casting of
> spell).
Close. You don't need the damage shield. The 1D6 HKA is an attack power.
The trigger stops it from firing until, well, triggered, probarly "placing hand in
sack without saying don't". The one charge limitation doesn't apply because that is
what the trigger advantage does. Once triggered, the attack (spell) doesn't exist
anymore.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:32:53 -0800
From: James Jandebeur <jimalj@best.com>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editi
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> The trouble is, HA is NOT the normal-damage equivalent of HKA. There's no
> need for such a power (a normal damage power that lets you add STR), because
> the paradigm shifts for normal damage -- STR is not added to HA, HA is added
> to STR, and that's the way it should be: /STR/ is the equivalent of HKA (you
> can use combat maneuvers with just STR, for example).
I don't agree. We currently have a power that allows you to translate your
strength into an energy killing attack, why not one that allows the same with
normal attacks? Why allow characters to do more with killing damage than with
normal damage? We should either flush HKA, or change HA. STR can't be the
equivalent of HKA, as HKA is tacked on top of it. That's what is being talked
about with HA, and why not?
> > Though it cannot be 'spread' in the manner of an Energy
> >Blast, an HA can be manipulated to improve OCV at the price of
> >damage. Each 1d6 of damage sacrificed gives a +1 OCV. Since an
> >HA - even when not focused - is assumed to be somewhat separate
> >from the character using it, it can be used to Block an
> >opponent's attack.
>
> This is where I have the real problem: exactly why are HA's "assumed to be
> somewhat separate from the character using it"? The two most common SFX
> besides weapons (i.e. Focus) that I've seen HA used for in the past are
> superspeed punches and superdense skin. Neither is separate from the
> character in any fashion, and it seems like a far easier approach to buy OCV
> bonuses with combat levels in addition to HA damage than to box them
> together and force players to limit them out.
Iron Fist is a prime example of someone that the HA at least appears to be
seperate from himself. Certainly, the Iron Fist power protects his hands from
damage while he is using it. However, Opal needs to work on the phrasing, as
all that is being said is that the OCV can also be used to block, this being
open to special effect. Notice, also, that Iron Fist is an example of a
character who's hand attack transforms his strength and skill into energy
damage. You could argue that this is just a no range energy blast, but then,
why not just dump HKA as well and use no range RKA's? And where does Opal say
that you can't buy levels, if that's what you want?
JAJ, Rules Philosopher
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:32:53 -0800
From: James Jandebeur <jimalj@best.com>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editi
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> The trouble is, HA is NOT the normal-damage equivalent of HKA. There's no
> need for such a power (a normal damage power that lets you add STR), because
> the paradigm shifts for normal damage -- STR is not added to HA, HA is added
> to STR, and that's the way it should be: /STR/ is the equivalent of HKA (you
> can use combat maneuvers with just STR, for example).
I don't agree. We currently have a power that allows you to translate your
strength into an energy killing attack, why not one that allows the same with
normal attacks? Why allow characters to do more with killing damage than with
normal damage? We should either flush HKA, or change HA. STR can't be the
equivalent of HKA, as HKA is tacked on top of it. That's what is being talked
about with HA, and why not?
> > Though it cannot be 'spread' in the manner of an Energy
> >Blast, an HA can be manipulated to improve OCV at the price of
> >damage. Each 1d6 of damage sacrificed gives a +1 OCV. Since an
> >HA - even when not focused - is assumed to be somewhat separate
> >from the character using it, it can be used to Block an
> >opponent's attack.
>
> This is where I have the real problem: exactly why are HA's "assumed to be
> somewhat separate from the character using it"? The two most common SFX
> besides weapons (i.e. Focus) that I've seen HA used for in the past are
> superspeed punches and superdense skin. Neither is separate from the
> character in any fashion, and it seems like a far easier approach to buy OCV
> bonuses with combat levels in addition to HA damage than to box them
> together and force players to limit them out.
Iron Fist is a prime example of someone that the HA at least appears to be
seperate from himself. Certainly, the Iron Fist power protects his hands from
damage while he is using it. However, Opal needs to work on the phrasing, as
all that is being said is that the OCV can also be used to block, this being
open to special effect. Notice, also, that Iron Fist is an example of a
character who's hand attack transforms his strength and skill into energy
damage. You could argue that this is just a no range energy blast, but then,
why not just dump HKA as well and use no range RKA's? And where does Opal say
that you can't buy levels, if that's what you want?
JAJ, Rules Philosopher
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Layout of 5th edition
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 21:35:55 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> > What would you like to see in our books (layout-wise)?
> > Do you care what it looks like at all, as long as it's readable?
> >
> I think layout can make a big diferent in conveying a 'feeling'
> An even better example is WW's stuff. The art and layout in that
> helped bring in a whole new type of gamer. For good or ill. :)
> >>>>>>
>
> Just don't get as carried away with the hunt for weird fonts as WW has. I had
> to put a couple of their books back on the shelf because the intro section
> gave me eyestrain.
>
Hey, I didn't say 'I' LIKED the look they had. :) But you have to
admit that it certainly helped to multiply the number of 'goth' gamers
out there by a few hundred fold. For good or ill.
And good example of layout helping to sell a product to a key
audiance. But whenever you focus on any key audiance, by nessesity you
turn off other audiances. Such as us (myself and you). It's just a question
of which is more beneficial to you. Addmittidly WW made the right choice. If
they'd tried to sell to us mainstream gamers they would have have just
ended up as one of many games on people's shelves. Instead they have a
fanatic cult following that just won't stop growing.
So I'd say layout could make or break a new edition of Champions.
You'd definatly want to get a certain mood going, and stick with it. In
all of art, layout, and text.
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 16:39:54 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Extra Time (was Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long))
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 10:03 AM 12/14/97 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>On Fri, 12 Dec 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>> >I see no support for this in the rules. If a Power has "Extra Time - 1
>> >Phase", it means just that... it takes an _extra_ phase.
>
>> I think *my* confusion may have stemmed from "Extra Time - *Full* Phase"
>> which is how it is actually stated (emphasis mine).
>
>Yeah, that is odd. Possibly there was originally a "Half Phase" level on
>the chart as well? (It would make sense to have it at the -1/4 level, but
>it would cause confusion when combined with the "half value" option of
>Extra Time.)
>
Champions III (1984), pg. 48. "New Power Limitations," "Activation Time:
This is a Limitation on all non-offensive Powers that normally take a zero
phase action to turn on. A Power with Activation Time takes a half phase
or even a full phase to turn on. Once the Power is on it doesn't take the
character time to keep it activated, so long as the character pays the END
for the Power it will stay on.
[Power takes half phase to activate +1/4]
[Power takes 1 full phase to activate +1/2]
<example snipped for space>
A character can also take an offensive Power that normally takes a half
phase and have it take a full phase to throw. The offensive Power gets a
+1/4 Limitation if it takes a full phase to throw."
Now, this is all I found in my "Revised Edition" books, Champions,
Champions II and Champions III. I suppose you will all draw your own
conclusions, but...
1) Maybe Extra Time *isn't* additional?
2) Maybe "throwing" an offensive power *does* take a 1/2 Phase?
I don't know... think about it. And, Rat, if you find that other
Limitation from "Gadgets!" or whereever, could you please post it, too?
Thanks.
>> This led *me* (and possibly Mr. Gilberg) to believe that this simply
>> extended the time of activation, not that it was an additive.
>
>The problem with this is that it makes no sense to me that turning a
>1/2-Phase action into a Full Phase action should be the same level of
>Limitation as turning a 0-Phase action into a Full Phase action.
>
See the above, older rule.
>(Except "Full Phase action" is misleading, since you explicitly can do
>other things during the activation time.)
>
Well, when does a Phase end, exactly? When your next Phase begins?
>> In the text description of the Limitation, it mentions a power that
>> takes a month (not a month-and-a-phase) to activate.
>
>Well, at that level the distinction is pretty much irrelevant. "Month and
>a phase" would just sound silly.
>
Oh, okay... heaven forbid the rules sound silly if they're clear... lol
Well, It would still take you the month, and (if it were an offensive
Power) you'd have to have an action to throw it. If it *isn't* a
month-and-a-*half*-Phase (I mispoke, initially), then you'd get that free
action... : ) Yeah, it's nitpicky.
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 16:45:28 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Avengers vs. X-Men
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 10:10 AM 12/14/97 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>On Fri, 12 Dec 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>> Spider-Man Team-Up (or was it Marvel Team-Up?) #100 (I think). Spider-man
>> and the X-men v. Juggernaut and Black Tom (who had part of the Juggernaut
>> power. Rogue absorbed the Juggy power from Caine, and went berserk as she
>> was taken over by his memories. Granted, that may not be "worked" by your
>> definition... <g>
>
>It isn't. Given that Rogue can be overwhelmed by a mental midget like
>Juggernaut and given that Thor, when his personality was absorbed by the
>Destroyer and even the freaking Demogorge, was able to assert control, I
>have difficulty believing she could successfully handle Thor.
>
Well, I was under the delusion (I suppose) that it wouldn't be Thor's
ability to "assert control," it would simply be the personality clash. It
may still depend upon strength of personality, but still... she's not
absorbing their souls. (AFAIK)
>> Wasn't there a time where she absorbed Colossus, Nightcrawler, and Kitty
>> Pryde's powers to beat some big baddy? Was that the Brood?
>
>That's why I explicitly referred to her trying to absorb an _adversary_.
>
Again, I didn't think this made a difference. She's severely damaged
people just by casual contact (that was part of her origin, wasn't it?
First kiss w/ boyfriend, and he went into a coma).
So... we've got a VPP (specialized Mimic Pool), maybe a Transfer (Always
On?), and maybe even a BODY Drain (Always On), all of which must have skin
to skin. I think the Marvel game gave her 1 minute of the abilities for
every 1 second contact. (I'm not positive.)
This being said... Thor could probably just take her down w/ Mjolnir
before she gets to him, especially if he remembers her powers from the last
time. I'm *pretty* sure she wouldn't be able to take a hit from the hammer
(or absorb *it*, either... : D )
- Jerry
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Adjustment Powers in 5th edition (Re: Atmospheric FTL)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 21:48:20 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> Yes, this is a problem. Allowing an Advantage on Teleport to allow blind
> teleporting is possibly a good idea.
>
> > Why does a Teleportation Suppression field stop the character from
> > moving?
>
> Now, to me this is evidence that "Suppress Teleport" is a nonsensical
> construction, rather than evidence against using Teleport for this
> purpose. Like Adjustment Powers, Suppress should always, always, always be
> bought as affecting a special effect rather than a game mechanic.
>
I agree. Perhaps in a 5th edition adjustment powers could
be changed to have the default be to choose a special effect, rather than
a specific power.
There's few cases where any other choice would make sense.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 97 21:53:06
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Special Offers to the list
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Sun, 14 Dec 1997 19:04:48 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
> Would the list lurkers here be in favor of occasional special offers on Hero
>products if we were to do that? Something akin to "No shipping on orders" or a
>slight discount? We're considering starting seasonal or holiday-themed sales
>and I wanted to get feedback from folks here on the idea.
>
> Mark @ GRG
>
I don't think I have ever once objected to a discount on something I was considering
buying anyway.
-=>John D.
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Slipperiness
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 21:54:03 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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>
> At 03:49 PM 12/13/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
> >I'm all for the 5th ed. In addition to the various suggestions people have
> >already made, I hope it includes either a "slipperiness" power or a
> >revised Change Environment that can make an icy surface with combat
> >effects. (My pet peeve.)
>
> While assembling TUSV, I found a need to define some Power to do this.
> I settled on a Minor Transform to change regular ground into slippery
> ground. The SFX could be ice, an oil slick, or something else. (I even
> have a sample vehicle with an icy slick device.)
Transform to do it reads like a 'hack' though. Since transform
requires overcoming the targets Body.
How much body does thin air have? Or a sidewalk?
It really does need a new power. A sort of 'reverse entangle'.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 97 21:56:10
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Sun, 14 Dec 1997 19:04:55 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
> One "simplified" way to handle Acrobatics in combat is to have the player
>make an Acrobatics Skill Roll for his PC, and use the Complementary Skill roll
>rules. I.e., for every 2 full points he makes the roll by, give him +1 Combat
>Level to be applied to OCV or DCV (player's choice) for that Action/Phase.
>What do you think?
>
> Mark @ GRG
>
But I still want the palyer to describe to me in some detail what amazing acrobatic feat
he's performing to get this bonus. I had a player once who would (when we were using
miniatures) move his figure through all of themoves his martial artist was performing -
entertaining as heck, especially with the sound effects.
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 16:57:14 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Ha! I KNEW it!! Magic is EVIL!!!]
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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> Yeah, I went off. But I don't like some smug a-hole with
>sickening moral nuggets of how I'm going to hell because I don't believe
>what some religious leaders culled from a mythological work.
Then ignore him. That's the bottom dollar, 100% best thing to do if someone
'merely' annoys you - especially if it's off topic.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:02:21 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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>
> > 1. Add an advantage called "Advantaged" which would be the exact
> > counterpart to "Limited".
>
> Bad idea IMO. There's no need for it given an adequate set of Powers and
> Advantages.
>
But a list is never 'complete'. There's always something missing.
Such an advatage would make it easier to customize powers, and take such
a thing away from being a 'house rule advatage' to a 'tournament legal'
concept.
> > 7. Steal a few of the advatages from GURPS, like Richocet.
>
> What would that be used for?
>
Allows you to bounce an attack off of a surface. For each time you
buy it, you can bounce one more surface. Or so it reads in GURPS.
Sort of a variation of 'Indirect'.
GURPS has about twice as many advantages for powers as Champions does.
Don't have a copy in front of me at the moment, but several of them would
be nice to add in.
Of course having an 'advataged' advantage would make the issue moot.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 17:04:52 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Avengers vs. X-Men
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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>This being said... Thor could probably just take her down w/ Mjolnir
>before she gets to him, especially if he remembers her powers from the last
>time.
Hrm. It depends if the writers remember Rogue's "Seventh Sense" (which they
usually do, making her easier to hit).
> I'm *pretty* sure she wouldn't be able to take a hit from the hammer
>(or absorb *it*, either... : D )
I'll be that Rogue could take a 'casual' hit from Mjolnir (i.e. average,
everyday Thor tossin' it around to whack baddies). If Thor really winds up
and cuts loose, though (like he did vs. Wonder Man in the land of the dead
when Grandmaster was still playing games with Death), it could get messy.
Thor lets Rogue get close, though, he deserves to lose.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 97 22:10:25
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Back from the Dead
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:11:18 +0000, Chris Brecken wrote:
>Hi there, I once had a charcter in another system with a power i would
>like to model in champs.
>
>It went somthing along these lines...
>
>Anytime the charcter died, a fresh clone would be released from the
>vats, and programmed with the memories of the previous clone and sent on
>his way.
>Only one clone could be in exsistance at a time due to quirk, that ment
>that if two did exsist, then due to the mental link that would
>exsist,they would both go mad very quickly...
>every so often the current clone would drop into the facilities, to have
>a backup of him memories made to imprint a new cloe if it became
>neccessary...
>In effect, every time the charcter died, all he lost was the memories
>between the last recording and his death.
>
>Any idears on how to model this in champs...
>
>Chris
Duplication, triggered by death. The new clone (due to restrictions in the duplication
power) will not be quite as powerful as the original, and, since the power (even with a
bevy of limitations will still be somewhat expensive) your character probably won't be
quite up to your campaign averages power-wise. It's kind of like having saved your
game a couple of moves back.
The "triggered by death" is wonky enough that you'll have to clear it with your GM.
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Lesson in humility (and irony)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:10:26 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> segment three half the group had been nuetrilized. Then we got lucky,
> and got in a few good shots, and had one of the nastiest fights we had
> ever had (it gave us a harder time than the low end Destroyer). It turns
> out the darkforce that my character had, had gotten it's own ability to
> move and act, rather than doing through a person.
>
> After the fight I asked about the monstrosity the GM built and was
> informed "I didn't built it, you did. I just used your writeup of the
> psycho Cat and added a few things for Special Effects." oops.
>
> Now, you tell me, is it fair to use a that thing I built (a little, no
> a lot munchkin) back on us. 8)
Once you introduced the dark force into the game's universe, it was
fair game.
So I'd say it was not only fair, but quite in genre to have happened.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 97 22:18:42
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sat, 13 Dec 1997 15:17:52 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
> One other note. Keep in mind that, primarily because of financial
>considerations, we are looking at printing the Hero System rules book
>separately, with Champions being a genre book. Champions would have the super
>power rules in there, as well as a *much* better treatment of the genre,
>examples, no "official universe" inside (rather examples and notes on creating
>several different types, etc., but the Hero System "core" rules would be in
>the Hero System rules book.
Would the "super power rules" be only in the Champions-genre book, or repeated in
the Champions genre book? (a Hero System rule book without a powers section has
problems).
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Back from the Dead
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:49:08 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> Hi there, I once had a charcter in another system with a power i would
> like to model in champs.
>
> It went somthing along these lines...
>
> Anytime the charcter died, a fresh clone would be released from the
> vats, and programmed with the memories of the previous clone and sent on
> his way.
> Only one clone could be in exsistance at a time due to quirk, that ment
> that if two did exsist, then due to the mental link that would
> exsist,they would both go mad very quickly...
> every so often the current clone would drop into the facilities, to have
> a backup of him memories made to imprint a new cloe if it became
> neccessary...
> In effect, every time the charcter died, all he lost was the memories
> between the last recording and his death.
>
> Any idears on how to model this in champs...
>
In Fuzion this is an advantage to the Regeneration power. Perhaps
something that will be added to a 5th edition. If you converted the
Fuzion power back to champs it would be a +1/2 adv to have regeneration
keep working after death.
Mechanon makes an argument for just having it be 'special effect'.
But few GM's would take that on a player character.
I've seen Duplication, one at a time, second one pops out when
first dies, used for this. Also seen transform and summoning.
One idea I've wondered about is could AID be used to heal somebody
back to life? If so, AID with the Independant lim would do it.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 17:52:19 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Avengers vs. X-Men
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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John Prins wrote:
>>This being said... Thor could probably just take her down w/ Mjolnir
>>before she gets to him, especially if he remembers her powers from the last
>>time.
>
>Hrm. It depends if the writers remember Rogue's "Seventh Sense" (which they
>usually do, making her easier to hit).
>
Oh, yeah, that. I hadn't ever heard of that before the recent issue I
picked up... she's hunting for Gambit in (I believe) Antarctica and
mentions that it's buzzing like crazy... and that it had been inactive for
a *long* while.
>> I'm *pretty* sure she wouldn't be able to take a hit from the hammer
>>(or absorb *it*, either... : D )
>
>I'll be that Rogue could take a 'casual' hit from Mjolnir (i.e. average,
>everyday Thor tossin' it around to whack baddies). If Thor really winds up
>and cuts loose, though (like he did vs. Wonder Man in the land of the dead
>when Grandmaster was still playing games with Death), it could get messy.
>Thor lets Rogue get close, though, he deserves to lose.
>
Eh, maybe a light hit. *Maybe* an average hit. And, yes, if she gets in
that close w/o *someone* taking her down, Thor should lose.
- Jerry
Does Mjolnir come back every time he throws it? (Straight EB, OAF) Or is
it sometimes caught/deflected?
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:03:47 EST
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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To: champ-l@omg.org
<< Major Mistake. The powers rules have many applications outside of
Super Powers. I think the Hero system rulebook should be the same size as
it was in 4th edition.>>
My bad. I think the plan *was* (or, rather, *is*) to have all the character
creation rules (including the "powers") in the Hero System Rules book, and
treat the Champions book as the campaign book (perhaps with a few extra
goodies, and certainly plenty of clear examples!).
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:03:51 EST
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< Right, but this isn't really a new edition then. >>
It's not?
<< A few minor rules changes mixed with a much flashier and slicker product
(lots of color, pictures, etc). They also included tons of new explinations
and examples>>
And that does not constitute a new edition?? According to my dictionary (The
Merriam Webster, (c) 1994), "edition" means:
1. The form in which a text is published.
2. The total number of copies (as of a book) published at one time.
3. Version
When I refer to a "5th Edition," I am talking about the printing and
presentation of those rules. There will be some minor rules changes (nothing
to invalidate any 4th ed stuff, though), but it is a 5th Ed. of the book as a
whole, not just the rules...
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:03:53 EST
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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To: champ-l@omg.org
<< Probably. Make sure that are of decent quality and of thick cardboard>>
Thick cardboard? You wouldn't be able to affix the bottom flaps together. ;)
Do you really think they need to be thicker than the 10-point cover stock we
use on our books? Would you be willing to pay even *more* for thicker
cardstock?
As far as quality, I'm not letting you off the hook either. I'm more than
happy to read/listen to feedback from people, but it has to be helpful and
useful feedback. "Decent quality" doesn't cut the mustard, I'm afraid. I need
to know what you mean by "decent quality."
Sorry if I sound like a broken record, but I can't assume to know what you
folks are thinking when you make general or vague comments. Things like "Make
books that don't suck" doesn't really help us much. ;)
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:03:58 EST
Subject: My BBB's falling apart!
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< Right down the middle. The spines of the books from various RPG companies
just don't seem to hack it anymore... What do they do... Look for the
cheapest glue out there on the market? >>
Sometimes they do (indirectly). You see, when a company prints a book it has
to way several factors, including their cost to print the book. So logically
they tend to steer toward the printers whose quotes are less than the more
expensive printers. That saves the consumer (that's you) money because the
publisher can keep the retail cost a bit lower.
However, the down side is that in order to *give* those lower quotes, some
printers use lower quality materials, from the paper stock, to inks, to glue
for the binding. It's not something the publisher chooses, like "Hey, use that
crappy glue there. Will that save me a penny per book on printing and binding
costs?" <LOL> That's why when the old BBB started falling apart, the folks at
ICE and Hero were as shocked and displeased as anyone.
For a long time, ICE had a deal where you coould trade in your old BBB for a
Champs softcover. Are there still a lot of folks left who don't have
replacements for their old Champs hardcover?
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:04:04 EST
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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To: champ-l@omg.org
I wonder how much it would cost us to get an Alex Ross piece for the cover.
Hmm...
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:04:07 EST
Subject: Re: Regenerating limbs
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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Just to chime in here briefly (and play devil's advocate)...
Might I suggest that some of you are adhering quite strictly to the "letter
of the law" as it applies to the rules? It would be a simple matter for the GM
to say that a lost limb is the "special effect" of the BODY Drain, and that
over time (as the BODY returns) it represents the overal healing of the
victim's body WITHOUT the limb.
After all, I would not make a PC who had a Phys. Lim. "Missing Left Arm"
start his character with less than 10 BODY. Would you? ;)
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:04:09 EST
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< As a house rule, I'd allow the warning shot to not take anytime, but the
End
cost or charge would be spent. There are times when following the letter of
the rules can be a pain.>>
Why? Can't a PC spread his EB, or use *up to* his max dice in the blast? Why
not let him use *less*? Say, a 1/2 die or 1 Pip Energy Blast, effectively
making it a 0 END "show of force?"
Man, some of you guys are harsh GMs! <LOL>
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:04:10 EST
Subject: Re: SPD Adjustment, Shapeshift gripes
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<< Speaking of Shapeshift, should a 5th edition rear its head, I'd like to see
the matter addressed of a _limited_, defined number of forms. >>
Your suggestion is noted.
<< For example, as it stands you get 1 form for 10 points, a 'bunch' of forms
for 20 points, and 'any' form for 30 points. What if I only want 2 forms? >>
I would suggest (for the time being) that you buy the 20 Pt. "Bunch of
Forms" power, and then give it a Limitation: Only 2 Forms (-1/2). Does that
work for you?
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:04:11 EST
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
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<< um. . there are no 'super hero' rules. there's just heroic/superheroic
characters. >>
I didn't say super-*hero* rules. I said super *powers* rules. But I think I
misspoke, in any case. I believe the plan it to include *all* of the character
creation rules in the Hero System Rule book, and make Champions the genre
book.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:04:13 EST
Subject: Re: Kurt's comments
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<< Well, basically i'd ask us all to recognise the difference between genuine
heros who can make a difference(even in a gritty setting) and joke-heros who
don't really stand a chance. . . .. >>
I don't understand the reference here. Please have pity on me. I read too
darned many messages and threads a day to remember them all! :D What does this
have to do with Kurt Busiek's comments about San Angelo?
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:04:14 EST
Subject: Re: Sidebars
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<< personally I dont like sidebars, they are annoying tricks, in my opinion,
put what you need in the text... I just think you need lots of art in your
books, preferably by me! LOL >>
Then make sure to send us some art samples, if you haven't already. I can't
guarantee you'd be hired to do art for us, but you'll *never* get hired if we
don't have your art samples to base a decision on. That goes for any and all
aspiring "Hero product" artists out there.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:04:15 EST
Cc: sengoku@dryland.mandarin.org
Subject: Re: Ninjato
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<<, "Ninjato" can be either a specific type of sword, or literally "ninja
sword", a sword owned and used by a ninja. *Some* ninjato (the second meaning)
were converted from katana, and many of them had their blades straightened in
the conversion. >>
Oh, bull puckey! <LOL> If you were to "straighten" a traditional katana,
whether by heating and pressure, or whatever, you'd ruin the blade! That's the
most ridiculous thing I've heard in a long time. But just in case I *am*
wrong, I've forwarded your comments to our Sengoku e-mail list, to which
several Japanese historians are subscribed. I'd like to get *their* take on
this, as well.
<< Remember, traditionally, ninja did not have much by way of wealth so they
could not afford to buy weapons or the materials to make them. They made do
with what they could steal or loot. >>
According to some sources, some ninja were descended from samurai clans, and
thuis already had access to weapons and such. As far as stealing, of course
that was the case on occasion. Once the ninja became a stronger "political"
force, however (ca. 14th-16th centuries, I believe), they had money from their
patrons to sustain them, not to mention their own artisans and craftsmen.
And to get back to the original point, the ninjato were straighter (although
not perfectly straight) because they were easier and less expensive to make
than the high-quality katana/tachi and wakizashi. Ninja considered the ninjato
a tool, not a piece of art.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:04:16 EST
Subject: Re: PART
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<< Hahaha... way back from 1990-95, when I ran my "Justice Alliance" game,
we had PaCT. The "Paranormal Containment Team" >>
Then you obviously took advantage of the flux-induced paranormal ability to
travel in to the future, steal my idea, and travel back in time to "create" it
yourself! You foul villain! <LOL>
Mark @ GRG
From: Egyptoid <Egyptoid@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:32:11 EST
Subject: Re: CHAR: KARZA DRONES
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In a message dated 12/14/97 8:27:01 AM, icepirat@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>> > 11 CON DF: Human, unless examined at Genetic Level
>> mean, if there's only _one_, very specific, not-likely-to-be-used method of
>> distinctive a feature as DF: Diabetic or DF: Sterile. It's not even worth a
>> piddling 5 points, IMHO.
Whatever. Those who can notice it, can react emotionally to it.
That's what DF means.
>> Excuse me, but how could this be in any way _worth_ points in Champions?
>Good rant. I'd like to add my own observation.
Um, you guys don't read the same supplements I do. Have you never
seen the magicians who have DF: strong magical aura (only visible to
other magicians & mana-sensitives? It's only worth 5 points because
only a limited group can see it in the first place, only a limited
group can react appropriately.
>> > +2 SPEED, Only for Job related actions or to fire weapon.
>> Arg. Am I the only one who thinks SPD 'only for X' should be outlawed in
the
Yes, you are the only one. See the Hydra in the Hero Bestiary for details.
>> > Ultravision
>> You mean Ultraviolet Vision?
>Or how about Ultra-violent vision?
Yes, me wee droogs, all 3 of em.
>Egyptoid: Please put your costs down for disads and the like. I'm curious
what
>you consider to be the fair costs.
Horse-$#%@. I get enough flames from people who think I write the craziest
characters going. I'm not going to add numbers and invite bombardment from
you number crunchers as well. I prefer to run a role-playing game, not a
lesson in
Microsoft Excel. But aside from that, if a GM likes my concept,
he'll copy my NPC and either put in numbers or he won't. I prefer to leave it
as season to taste. I tend to run my campaign by feel & color, not numbers.
When I get more regular access to Heromaker, I may post more numbers then,
but I promise you, if you don't like my concepts now, you won't like'em
any better when you see how much they end up costing. :)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:34:56 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
> << Probably. Make sure that are of decent quality and of thick cardboard>>
>
> Thick cardboard? You wouldn't be able to affix the bottom flaps together. ;)
> Do you really think they need to be thicker than the 10-point cover stock we
> use on our books? Would you be willing to pay even *more* for thicker
> cardstock?
Is this as thick as the ones originally put out by SJG?
The cardstock used in the Champions Gamemaster screen was to thin, as well
as the material used in Alien Enemies. The ones put out by SJG and in
theWhite Wolf Streetfight books was pretty much on target.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:38:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: PART
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
> << Hahaha... way back from 1990-95, when I ran my "Justice Alliance" game,
> we had PaCT. The "Paranormal Containment Team" >>
>
> Then you obviously took advantage of the flux-induced paranormal ability to
> travel in to the future, steal my idea, and travel back in time to "create" it
> yourself! You foul villain! <LOL>
You know, when I originally wrote that, I was gonna make a comment about
how *you* stole *my* idea! So, I have no other choice but to have my
lawyers (Dewey, Cheatum & Howe) call you lawyers. Unless, of course, you
want to settle out of court and avoid the embarrsing publicity of a Judge
Ito monitored court battle.
(I wanna enough cash for a new Power Mac 6500 @300Mhz, good enough?)
(Foul villain indead!)
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:41:35 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
> << Major Mistake. The powers rules have many applications outside of
> Super Powers. I think the Hero system rulebook should be the same size as
> it was in 4th edition.>>
>
> My bad. I think the plan *was* (or, rather, *is*) to have all the character
> creation rules (including the "powers") in the Hero System Rules book, and
> treat the Champions book as the campaign book (perhaps with a few extra
> goodies, and certainly plenty of clear examples!).
My bad?
Anyway, this is a highly sensible idea. As I said before, making a
complete 5th Edition Hero System Rules book (covering all aspects of the
game, along the lines of the GURPS players book) would be very cool. I
don't do a lot of Superhero stuff anymore, but I play a mess of other
genres and would prefer tohave the core rules be as generic as possible.
Oh yeah, you can't have to many *clear* examples.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:52:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: CHAR: KARZA DRONES
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Egyptoid wrote:
> >> > 11 CON DF: Human, unless examined at Genetic Level
>
> >> Excuse me, but how could this be in any way _worth_ points in Champions?
> >Good rant. I'd like to add my own observation.
> Um, you guys don't read the same supplements I do. Have you never
> seen the magicians who have DF: strong magical aura (only visible to
> other magicians & mana-sensitives? It's only worth 5 points because
> only a limited group can see it in the first place, only a limited
> group can react appropriately.
Yes, but it is usaully a *lot* easier for the magic sensitives to detect
the aura than for some to do a genetic examination.
In the example you give, usually the magic sensetive (or other magician)
can pick up the aura merely by being near the character, they aren't
required to actually conduct a detailed scientific experiment. Besides,
how does such a DF limit the character? Not nearly as much as the aura
you mention, which can be detected by friend and enemy alike.
> >> > +2 SPEED, Only for Job related actions or to fire weapon.
> >> Arg. Am I the only one who thinks SPD 'only for X' should be outlawed in
> the
> Yes, you are the only one. See the Hydra in the Hero Bestiary for details.
My Bestiary is lent out, but the Hydra in the FH Companion doesn't use
this setup.
> >Egyptoid: Please put your costs down for disads and the like. I'm curious
> what
> >you consider to be the fair costs.
> Horse-$#%@. I get enough flames from people who think I write the craziest
> characters going. I'm not going to add numbers and invite bombardment from
> you number crunchers as well. I prefer to run a role-playing game, not a
> lesson in
I don't number crunch. I put down point values so people can understand
how I built something and get a quick assessment of the character's power
level. Would *you* buy a Hero Suppliment that just listed stats and
powers with no total costs?
> Microsoft Excel. But aside from that, if a GM likes my concept,
> he'll copy my NPC and either put in numbers or he won't. I prefer to leave it
> as season to taste. I tend to run my campaign by feel & color, not numbers.
> When I get more regular access to Heromaker, I may post more numbers then,
> but I promise you, if you don't like my concepts now, you won't like'em
> any better when you see how much they end up costing. :)
Plugging in the numbers for someone elses character design ends up (to me)
sounding like I might as well make up the character from scratch. I mean
what's the point of that?
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 19:04:45 EST
Subject: Re: Greetings
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To: champ-l@omg.org
<< Would he have to pout? Wouldn't a friendly smile be just as effective,
if not more so? ;-]>>
Hey, whatever gets the retailers (and the distributors) to buy our stuff,
mate! ;)
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 19:04:48 EST
Subject: Re: Greetings
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<< Now I'm combing the local stores for a HSR... >>
We have probably less than 200 in stock. Just FYI.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 19:04:48 EST
Subject: Special Offers to the list
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Would the list lurkers here be in favor of occasional special offers on Hero
products if we were to do that? Something akin to "No shipping on orders" or a
slight discount? We're considering starting seasonal or holiday-themed sales
and I wanted to get feedback from folks here on the idea.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 19:04:49 EST
Subject: Champions 5th Ed Cover
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<< Really? I thought it was pretty good. >>
So do we. But we want the 5th Ed. book to have an even *better* cover... ;)
<< I'd realy like to see the next panel, though: Seeker burried under the
wall Doc D just squished him with, and the broken Katana stiking out.... >>
I know you were joking (at least I hope so), but I don't know if we'll be
featuring any of the CU characters on the cover. Just FYI.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 19:04:52 EST
Subject: Genre Books
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<< Wow, I like this new emphasis on Genre books...>>
This is just the tip of the iceburg, folks. I've been promising for quite
some time that we're going to be revitalizing the Hero System line. Very soon
you're going to start seeing the fruits of all our labor. We aim to please,
and I certainly hope that you like what's coming, because we have quite a bit
planned for next year. ;)
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 19:04:53 EST
Subject: Layouts
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< Just don't get as carried away with the hunt for weird fonts as WW has. I
had
to put a couple of their books back on the shelf because the intro section
gave me eyestrain.>>
See our first two books (Heroic Adventures Vol.s 1 & 2) for an idea of how
we handle fonts. Only in player handouts do we/would we alter our standard
font choices (i.e., for a letterhead, newspaper clipping, etc.)
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 19:04:54 EST
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes
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<< ...if they were decent... >>
I don't know what "decent" is to you. Can you be more specific? Thanks.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 19:04:54 EST
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA/ Desol Super Dodge
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<< Like I've said, it works fine if you don't want to do any attacks at the
same time. Otherwise, the "Affects Physical World" needed on all your powers
plus STR is really expensive.>>
Hmm, I see your point. I would say that a character using such a "maneuver"
(or Power) would be in "Defensive" mode and couldn't attack, as per the rules.
To attack, he'd have to lose that Zen-master-like defensive ability (like a
de-cloaking Bird of Prey? <G>) as a 0 Phase action. But that's just me.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 19:04:55 EST
Subject: Acrobatics in Combat
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One "simplified" way to handle Acrobatics in combat is to have the player
make an Acrobatics Skill Roll for his PC, and use the Complementary Skill roll
rules. I.e., for every 2 full points he makes the roll by, give him +1 Combat
Level to be applied to OCV or DCV (player's choice) for that Action/Phase.
What do you think?
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 19:04:58 EST
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA/ Desol Super Dodge
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< What she did have was Desolid, IPE (sight), define as becoming intangible.
OTOH, the PCs almost went crazy because I described her as dodging constantly
resulting in the PCs triumphantly telling me they had hit a DCV of 17 only to
have me say "you miss". She also aborted to her Desolid often to avoid
damage. >>
One of my villains, Reflec, has a similar power... sort of. Suffice it to
say it was slimey and the players hated me for months! <LOL> Reflec has this
Force Field, with IPE. During combat folks would hit, but the special effect
of the Force Field was that items (or energy) "bends" around him, effectively
"missing" him. It took a *really* good, strong blow to actually "hit" him. My
players still shudder at the thought of fighting Reflec again. ;) Aggravation
runs rampant!
Mark @ GRG
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 19:17:40 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
> One "simplified" way to handle Acrobatics in combat is to have the player
> make an Acrobatics Skill Roll for his PC, and use the Complementary Skill roll
> rules. I.e., for every 2 full points he makes the roll by, give him +1 Combat
> Level to be applied to OCV or DCV (player's choice) for that Action/Phase.
> What do you think?
That has the potential to become highly unbalancing for a three point
skill.
Any DEX 29-31 martial artist will have a 15- Acrobatics and since the
average of 3d6 is 11, routinely get +2 to his CV *every* Phase. For only
3 points!
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:37:17 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> Why? Can't a PC spread his EB, or use *up to* his max dice in the blast? Why
> not let him use *less*? Say, a 1/2 die or 1 Pip Energy Blast, effectively
> making it a 0 END "show of force?"
There's a minimal END cost involved with anything, usually placed
at the minimum cost of the power level but almost always 1 END. More if
increased END is on the power, however. This is from the same idea that
even a non-STR-using Physical Action still uses 1 pt of END.
And as for powers with charges -- you blew a charge, plain and
simple, by using the power. You're down one charge and there ain't no way
I'm letting an argument get that back.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:40:48 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> Thick cardboard? You wouldn't be able to affix the bottom flaps together. ;)
> Do you really think they need to be thicker than the 10-point cover stock we
> use on our books? Would you be willing to pay even *more* for thicker
> cardstock?
Tell you the truth, I really don't like the flaps. They never
worked well for me. I'd perfer a card printed on both sides that I can
use a plastic stand for -- sort of like the Battletech cardboard figures.
About that same cardstock would work, too. Take a look at thier products
from the main Boxed Set or perhaps Reinforcements 2.
> Sorry if I sound like a broken record, but I can't assume to know what you
> folks are thinking when you make general or vague comments. Things like "Make
> books that don't suck" doesn't really help us much. ;)
Sorry I can't say more about qualifying the questions on the art.
Basically, I have to be able to tell pretty easily which character is
depicted on the card. Like I said, the cardboard heroes from the
Champions GM screen were pretty good for that.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 20:00:01 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: That's What I Want...
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><< Speaking of Shapeshift, should a 5th edition rear its head, I'd like to see
>the matter addressed of a _limited_, defined number of forms. >>
>
> Your suggestion is noted.
>
><< For example, as it stands you get 1 form for 10 points, a 'bunch' of forms
>for 20 points, and 'any' form for 30 points. What if I only want 2 forms? >>
>
> I would suggest (for the time being) that you buy the 20 Pt. "Bunch of
>Forms" power, and then give it a Limitation: Only 2 Forms (-1/2). Does that
>work for you?
No, it wouldn't. I'm very tempted to say that Shapeshifting is 'too cheap'.
I'd like the list to discuss this idea.
Shapeshift: 20 points for a single form. +2 points per additional form, +10
points for a limited 'group', +10 points for a broad 'group', +10 points for
any shape.
But, Shapeshift costs no END (90% of the shapeshifter's I've ever seen buy
'0 END' anyways).
Limited Group is defined as by things like 'felines' or 'motorcycles'
Broad Group is defined as by things like 'mammals' or 'machines'
This is, of course, a more expensive construct (not necessarily bad, as
Shapeshifting is darn useful and fairly rare, comic-wise), but it's got lots
greater resolution - I'd prefer added resolution than added limitations.
For example, I'd like to buy the DEF and Dice of Entangles separately
(though, to prevent abuse, one should never be more than twice the other).
I'd like to be able to buy Force Walls with Mental or Power Defense spelled
out in the rules (ditto Forcefields). I want _discrete_ forms of Power
Defense that apply only to a limited SFX - very few forms of 'power defense'
should apply across the board vs. all SFX. I want Absorption to be able to
operate as a defense without resorting to an Armor kludge. I want
Duplication that doesn't make me pay for the new form's Disadvantages!
(ditto Multiforms). I want Flash powers that cost 5 points per die but work
on Segments, not Phases. I want to buy Life Support: Immune to Cold (only!)
or Life Support: No Need to Sleep (only!) without resorting to limitations.
I want better defined Regeneration (bump the REC of BODY up the time chart,
can/can't regenerate organs, can/can't regenerate person from a smear of
blood, etc.). I want an Immortality power. I want cheaper Stretching. I want
a easy, purchasable means of Summoning _friendly_ minions without resorting
to Mind Control (advantage or just +points). I want cheaper Telekinesis, b/c
if that stupid rule didn't exist I could buy 10 STR TK, Ranged, No Figured
Characteristics for 10 points, not 15! I want a 'reasonably reliable'
Transform that can one-shot a 'normal' (10 BODY) without costing 80 points
minimum. I also want a Transform that can have variable targets as well as
results (this is unclear, but it LOOKS like the rules don't allow you to
have variable targets, just variable results).
That's what I want...is it too much to ask? :-)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 20:00:06 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: CHAR: KARZA DRONES
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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>>> > +2 SPEED, Only for Job related actions or to fire weapon.
>>> Arg. Am I the only one who thinks SPD 'only for X' should be outlawed in
>the
>Yes, you are the only one. See the Hydra in the Hero Bestiary for details.
That's a good one! :-). Seriously, the HERO Bestiary shouldn't be taken
seriously. It does stuff like: 1 pip HKA, Reduced Penetration. Sorry, but
ten squirrel bites are _not_ going to put me in negative BODY land. Or -3"
Running to Alligators, which can fun faster than a man can for short
periods. Ask others on the list about other goofy junk in the HERO Bestiary.
Even the Hydra example is a bad one. +4 SPD, Only to Bite (-1 1/2). ONE AND
A HALF??!?!?!? That alone should get you questioning their thinking.
"Here, Mr. Ray-Gun man, take +3 SPD, Only to shoot ray-gun, at minus one and
a half. What was it you do 90% of the time again?"
"Shoot my ray-gun."
"Jolly good, off you go..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 01:11:02 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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>
> << Probably. Make sure that are of decent quality and of thick cardboard>>
>
> Thick cardboard? You wouldn't be able to affix the bottom flaps together. ;)
> Do you really think they need to be thicker than the 10-point cover stock we
> use on our books? Would you be willing to pay even *more* for thicker
> cardstock?
>
Kinda. Thickness should be that of the Cardboard Heroes put out
by SJG.
> As far as quality, I'm not letting you off the hook either. I'm more than
> happy to read/listen to feedback from people, but it has to be helpful and
> useful feedback. "Decent quality" doesn't cut the mustard, I'm afraid. I need
> to know what you mean by "decent quality."
>
Well, on par with the art in the book. Not distorted so much by
miniturization that you can't even see who's who. Color that stays within
the boarders.
Think of the cardboard figures put out by SJG so many years ago.
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: My BBB's falling apart!
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 01:15:41 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> costs?" <LOL> That's why when the old BBB started falling apart, the folks at
> ICE and Hero were as shocked and displeased as anyone.
>
> For a long time, ICE had a deal where you coould trade in your old BBB for a
> Champs softcover. Are there still a lot of folks left who don't have
> replacements for their old Champs hardcover?
>
I think most of us never heard of that policy. This is the first time
I ever did.
Fortunatly my BBB is holding together quite well.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 17:47:24 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Ha! I KNEW it!! Magic is EVIL!!!]
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 01:32 PM 12/14/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> Ah, you forgot to include Tim Gilberg in on this reproach. He was just as
>> guilty of (off-topically) expousing a religious belief and arguing the
finer
>> points of theology. Reprimand only one person and you pretty much take
>> sides, neh?
>
> Yeah, I went off. But I don't like some smug a-hole with
>sickening moral nuggets of how I'm going to hell because I don't believe
>what some religious leaders culled from a mythological work.
>
>> And if anyone's wondering, I'm a Christian...but don't think that theology
>> should be argued on this list.
>
> True. But remember that the trying-to-be-a-missionary christian
>started the whole damn thing.
Just as a point of fact: the actual "smug a-hole" who started it was
posting a bunch of derogatory comments about Christians.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 17:48:54 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 07:17 PM 12/14/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
>
>> One "simplified" way to handle Acrobatics in combat is to have the player
>> make an Acrobatics Skill Roll for his PC, and use the Complementary
Skill roll
>> rules. I.e., for every 2 full points he makes the roll by, give him +1
Combat
>> Level to be applied to OCV or DCV (player's choice) for that Action/Phase.
>> What do you think?
>
>That has the potential to become highly unbalancing for a three point
>skill.
>
>Any DEX 29-31 martial artist will have a 15- Acrobatics and since the
>average of 3d6 is 11, routinely get +2 to his CV *every* Phase. For only
>3 points!
I think it could still work if a failure means that the character falls
his Acrobatics Roll, cannot make an attack that Phase, is at half DCV, and
must spend a half Phase the next Phase to get up.
---
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Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 20:56:41 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Atmospheric FTL
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On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Trevor Barrie wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>
>
> > While I'm on the topic of FTL and Teleport, I wish there were a way to
> > interface the two. It's very difficult to build an interplanetary
> > teleporter, and certainly more costly than it's worth.
>
> Wait - why can't "interplanetary teleporter" just be a special effect for
> FTL?
>
Because FTL won't get you out of a sealed room.
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: TUSV
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:02:14 +0000 (GMT)
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> take what I post as gospel even if you'd take TUSV itself as such.
Am I the only one who keeps wanting to read that as
"The Ultimate Super Villian"?
Which in itself may make for a justifiable book.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:08:11 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Atmospheric FTL
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 09:45 AM 12/14/97 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>> While I'm on the topic of FTL and Teleport, I wish there were a way to
>> interface the two. It's very difficult to build an interplanetary
>> teleporter, and certainly more costly than it's worth.
>
>Wait - why can't "interplanetary teleporter" just be a special effect for
>FTL?
One of the more powerful Champions villains I ever constructed for my
first campaign was a techno-wizard who was a PC's main Hunter. We were
very free-form back then, being rather more interested in telling a story
than in game balance, strict adherence to the rules, or such nonsense. At
any rate, I decided to give him a 60-point Multipower, and one of the slots
was FTL travel. After doing the math, I discovered that he could start a
fight with his henchmen at his side on one side of the galaxy, go to the
other side of the galaxy with his FTL, grab a weapon, and return before the
fight was over.
Due to a falling out with the co-GM, I never got to use the villain, let
alone that particular trick. (For the interested, a toned-down version of
the villain, the Emerald Wizard, will be in Northwest Champions, sans the
FTL.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 21:08:58 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Slipperiness
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On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Captain Spith wrote:
> >
> > At 03:49 PM 12/13/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
> > >I'm all for the 5th ed. In addition to the various suggestions people have
> > >already made, I hope it includes either a "slipperiness" power or a
> > >revised Change Environment that can make an icy surface with combat
> > >effects. (My pet peeve.)
> >
> I state openly and unabashedly at this time that I have NO idea how
> to properly define slipperyness myself....
> --
I reposted my CE rules (created in consultation with the list, mainly Bob
and Geoff) a week or two ago. My initial idea, though, was a slipperiness
power which I'll include here:
Slipperiness
With this Standard, Constant Power, the character may create a
surface on which it is difficult to move. For 10 points, the effect fills
one hex; +1" of radius costs +10 points.
A character within a Slipperiness field must make a DEX roll if he or
she moves, attacks, or takes any significant physical action. Targets with
Breakfall may substitute that skill for the DEX roll. If the character is
moving across a Slipperiness area larger than one hex, he or she takes -1
per 1" moved. If the character fails the roll, he or she takes 1d6 damage
for every 5" of velocity and ends up prone. For +3 points, the
Slipperiness may penalize the DEX roll by -1.
A character in a Slipperiness field is also at 1/2 DCV. If the
character can make an additional DEX or Breakfall roll, he or she will be
only -1 DCV, but if the roll is failed, the character falls and takes
damage as above.
Slipperiness does not normally affect characters with Clinging. For
+10 character points, the power will require Clinging characters to make
DEX rolls like others.
Slipperiness, of course, has no effect on characters who are flying
or otherwise avoiding ground movement.
Example: Mr. Winter wants the ability to create an icy surface. For 30
points, he can cause Slipperiness in a 3" radius. For an additional 15
points, all DEX and Breakfall rolls vs. the Slipperiness will be at -5.
Since he wants to use his ice against his arch enemy Gecko-Man, he spends
10more points to counteract Clinging. His total cost is 30 + 15 + 10 = 55
character points.
Slipperiness Cost: 10 character points for 1 hex Slipperiness,
minimum cost 10 points. +1" Radius for 10 points. -1 to DEX and Breakfall
rolls for +3 points. +10 points to counteract Clinging. Range = 5x
Character Points in inches.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:12:44 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes Scale
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 02:11 PM 12/12/97 +0000, ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net wrote:
>What would be the right dimensions for cardboard minis? 1/2" x 1"?
That, or *slightly* larger (like 0.6" x 1.2" or so).
---
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Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 20:14:05 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: That's What I Want...
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> For example, I'd like to buy the DEF and Dice of Entangles separately
> (though, to prevent abuse, one should never be more than twice the other).
Nice. A simple thing.
> should apply across the board vs. all SFX. I want Absorption to be able to
> operate as a defense without resorting to an Armor kludge. I want
Why can you not grasp the whole idea of the Hero rules? We've
explianed it a million times. Figure out the effect you want and then
take the combined powers that will simulate that. That's why absorpion
provides no defense. Sheesh!
-Tim Gilberg
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:20:11 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 10:45 AM 12/14/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>> > I take it you haven't seen the covers to SA:CoH or Sengoku, then. We
don't
>> >plan on acquiring "mediocre" art for a 5th Ed. book, Michael. ;)
>>
>> Leave in some mediocre art -- especially if it's Cris Cloutier's, or
>> otherwise suggestive of the Golden Age Era (which was characteristically
>> mediocre, but has a special place in the hearts of most if not all
>> superhero lovers).
>
>I would not call Chris Cloutier's art mediocre. It is certainly a lot
>more dynamic and creative than Mark Williams stuff ever was (that was
>mediocre), and if spends some time on the peice it can turn out excellent.
>I still say that Madame Moonlight has one of the best costume designs in
>all of the Champions books.
>
>I think Chris's only real drawback is his stuff may be a touch too
>'cartoony' for most books.
I agree re: Madame Moonlight. But go take a look at Leaping Lizard or
Captain Future. This is some pretty medicore work -- and *intentionally*
so, to reflect the often medicore work of the Golden Age era that resulted
when many of the better artists were drafted. (Really, a tribute to Chris'
ability.)
The bad side of this was that not only was this art (the actual Golden
Age comics) of low quality, but it also resulted in a lower standard of
artwork in comics and animation that lasted for decades. The good side is
that this particular *type* of mediocrity has become a style that truly
talented artists like Chris can emulate for the sake of atmosphere.
This is why this particular "mediocre" art is something I'd continue to
use.
---
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Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:27:52 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Lesson in humility (and irony)
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 08:40 AM 12/14/97 -0700, Curtis Gibson wrote:
>Now, you tell me, is it fair to use a that thing I built (a little, no
>a lot munchkin) back on us. 8)
Yep. [Evil laughter....]
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Extra Time on a Triggered Power
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 14 Dec 1997 21:31:35 -0500
Lines: 29
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "g" == ghoyle1 <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> writes:
g> Stainless Steel Rat said:
>> Also remember: that Extra Time limitation means that she cannot prepare her
>> formula during combat, so she will have an extremely limited supply.
>> Personally, I would use Charges instead of Extra Time.
g> Actually, she has Charges, too.
As just mentioned, a limitation that does not limit the character is worth
no bonus.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover
\ head.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:32:38 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Open Apology
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 12:22 AM 12/14/97 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote:
>Useful Tip: Never, ever answer mail while under the influence of sleep
>deprivation.
>
>I'd like to apologize to the list for a major blunder o' mine. Even as I
>was typing away to answer Kev's "fundamentalist voice" message, my brain is
>thinking "I'm so clever, I'm making a private response." Only, of course, I
>sent it to the list anyways because my mind was futzing up which addresses
>went on which messages.
>
>If you feel you really have to flame me for opening up a religious debate on
>the list, go right ahead -- I deserve it (*sigh*). But at least know that I
>realize I did make a mistake, and I'm sorry for it. The only religious
>arguments that belong on this list are Linked debates (*duck*).
Speaking for myself, at in all probability for other Christians on the
list as well, you can consider yourself forgiven. :-]
---
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: That's What I Want...
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:34:30 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> >> should apply across the board vs. all SFX. I want Absorption to be able to
> >> operate as a defense without resorting to an Armor kludge. I want
> >
> > Why can you not grasp the whole idea of the Hero rules? We've
> >explianed it a million times. Figure out the effect you want and then
> >take the combined powers that will simulate that. That's why absorpion
> >provides no defense. Sheesh!
>
> Because Absorption doesn't _block_ or 'redirect' damage like armor or force
> fields. It _transforms_ it from damaging 'power' to useful 'power'. It
> should never have a _chance_ to do damage!
>
You know, like the person above, when I first read the original comment
at the top here I thought "You idiot, buy the Absorption and the proper
defense." Then I read his defense of it below and must say I now 'almost'
agree with him (I'll show below where I don't, which is cost of power, and
why.).
> PLUS, look at the costs involved. Absorption = 5 points/die. Aid = 5 points
> per die. I'm paying (currently) AS MUCH as I am for Aid, while getting:
>
> A.) The same upper limit
> B.) No personal control over the increase of my 'aided' power
> C.) Increases dependant on the strength of the attack
> D.) END free Aid.
>
> Sorry, but IMO, the '0 END' componant of Absorption DOES NOT balance out the
> two other conditions. Why does Absorption EXIST AT ALL??? I could just as
> easily do this:
>
> XD6 Aid, 0 END (+1/2), Persistant (+1/2), Only when hit by a power fitting
> 'Y' SFX (-1/2), Dice of Aid limited by DC of attack (-1/2).
>
> It's virtually the SAME construct, with the same conditions. Please, if you
> can, _justify_ to me the existance of Absorption at all, given that it
> operates identically to this Aid construct.
>
Now that's a very good point. One I hadn't considered before.
> Now, back to Absorption acting in a 'damage transformation' manner. Watch
> how easy this is: for every die of Absorption, you REMOVE one DC of damage
> from the attack. So if someone with 8D6 Absorption gets hit with a 10D6
> attack, only 2 damage dice are rolled - everything else gets 'absorbed'.
> Then, you roll the dice of absorption (up to the maximum) to find out how
> many 'CPs' are absorbed. Clean, simple, and actually has a reason for
> existance - but don't mistake it for a cheap defense!! It's JUST as
> expensive as Energy Blast, on a dice for dice basis. Buying 12D6 Absorption
> is as expensive as buying 40 points of Resistant PD or ED, or 60 points of
> non-resistant. 40 rPD will stop a 4D6 RKA or 12D6 Energy Blast just as cold,
> though it has admittedly little effect on Knockback.
>
However. 12d6 Absorption as you state it blocks up to 12d6 EB ALL
the time. So it's really stopping from 12 to 72 points of damage. However
a 13d6 EB that rolls all ones will still do 1 point in your construct.
Now I don't propose to roll the dice of arbsorption AND the
dice of EB and then compare them for totals (which is what we do now), then
absorb whatever you rolled and only take the rest (which is diferent from now).
This has too many dice rolls. But perhaps we could buy absorption like
PD or ED, only at say 2 or 3 points per point of absorption? Or 5 points per
3 points of absorption?
However I think having it cancel out dice for dice is too potent
under most situations, and oddly weak under some (25 character points of
absorb should be enough to stop 10 points of damage, weather it was done by
a 2d6 hit, or a 10d6 hit. However it should not be enough to stop 30
points of damage, weather or not it's done by 5d6 or 10d6). All other
defenses in champions are static, so it only makes sense for absorption's
defensive side to be so as well.
Now as to weather the points added would be a static number like
say 1 per 5 character points in the power, or equal to (base character
points/5)d6 as the amount of Body of the attack I add is another question.
> If I've got 12D6 Absorption, I doubt I'll ever see an absorption roll over
> 12. Considering that a _lot_ of the absorbtion going on in comic books is
> 'total', an extra 12 rPD just doesn't cut it. I'd need a HUGE Absorption to
> get the additional defenses 'required' to simulate the effect.
>
Well, in my above example I assumed the defense would stop Body and
Stun; as I agree with your comic book analogy.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:35:40 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Slipperiness
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 01:11 PM 12/14/97 -0800, Captain Spith wrote:
>Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>
>> At 03:49 PM 12/13/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>> >I'm all for the 5th ed. In addition to the various suggestions people have
>> >already made, I hope it includes either a "slipperiness" power or a
>> >revised Change Environment that can make an icy surface with combat
>> >effects. (My pet peeve.)
>>
>> While assembling TUSV, I found a need to define some Power to do this.
>> I settled on a Minor Transform to change regular ground into slippery
>> ground. The SFX could be ice, an oil slick, or something else. (I even
>> have a sample vehicle with an icy slick device.)
>
> Of course, this still requires a definition of what slick ground
>does. I recall a dabate on what mechanics would/could be used to
>represent slipperyness, but don't remember if there were any popular
>results.
> I feel that the machanics of such a thing are much more to the point
>than the mechanism; once the resulting machanics are known, crafting
>the power to implement them is relatively simple.
> I state openly and unabashedly at this time that I have NO idea how
>to properly define slipperyness myself....
I have a definition in the manuscript. I don't recall what it is
offhand, and I'm a little pressed for time (being urged by my much wiser
wife to get off the computer ASAP) so I can't stop to look it up, but maybe
I'll post it shortly.
Of course, either rule could be changed by the final draft, so don't
take what I post as gospel even if you'd take TUSV itself as such.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 14 Dec 1997 21:37:16 -0500
Lines: 32
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
BG> Hold on a sec... what about breaking out of an Entangle? I was being
BG> mostly facetious before about the sky having a DCV, but a character using
BG> STR or an attack Power (if you should pardon the expression) to break out
BG> of an Entangle is a case of an attack that doesn't require an Attack Roll.
Use of EB or RKA -- both instant powers that require attack rolls to use
as attacks -- do NOT require an attack roll to break out of an Entangle.
Additionally, if the damage done to the Entangle is sufficiently great, one
may have a half-phase or even a full phase worth of action.
In other words, thank you for presenting an example of the use of so-called
"attack powers" that does not require an attack action to use.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and
\ kept under refrigeration.
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:45:21 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
>
> > Since it seems that the majority of folks (onthis list, anyway) would like
> >to see more cardboard minis, let me ask you this: Would you be willing to pay
> >an extra $2 for a book that had them included?
> >
>
You know, I think they should both be something within a book
featuring all it's NPC's (Any NPC or consequence, not the Super Powered ones.),
and seperate sold alone items in genre related packs like SJG did.
Some of the sold alone's could reprint those in books, and some new.
Why reprint? Well if I ever have one of Sparx's players over and he spills
a coke on it... :) Or the guy I had in high school who insisted on squeezing
all of my figures flat everytime he touched one...
Of course, reprint packs should have no newbies, and newbie packs
no reprints. Perhaps reprints could be done as mail order only, since
most people wouldn't buy them.
> Of course, I'd paid two extra bucks for some good card board heroes. What I
> mean by good would be a front and back, decent artwork and something that
> wouldn't fall apart the first time one of my players spilt of glass of soda
> on them. Happens you know. And more then just heroes, sci-fi characters,
> westerns, police, agents, etc... Looking for the works here. Take it easy
> and talk at you later.
Yeah. Multi-genre is a key idea here.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Avengers vs. X-Men
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 03:00:24 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
>
> > Oh, yeah, that. I hadn't ever heard of that before the recent issue I
> > picked up... she's hunting for Gambit in (I believe) Antarctica and
> > mentions that it's buzzing like crazy... and that it had been inactive for
> > a *long* while.
>
> Must have an 8- roll;)
>
> >
> > Does Mjolnir come back every time he throws it? (Straight EB, OAF) Or is
> > it sometimes caught/deflected?
>
If it always returns, does it deserve a focus limitation?
> It's been deflected but it seems to nearly always return. In fact,
> Juggernaut once stopped the hammer short of hitting him, then grabbed the
> hammer and let it pull him back to Thor, using the veolcity to add to his
> strength and sending Thor through several trains. I've always liked
> Juggy.
Definatly a good use of the rare call that special effects can
sometimes have an in game application.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Genre Books
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 03:15:54 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
>
> << Wow, I like this new emphasis on Genre books...>>
>
> This is just the tip of the iceburg, folks. I've been promising for quite
> some time that we're going to be revitalizing the Hero System line. Very soon
> you're going to start seeing the fruits of all our labor. We aim to please,
> and I certainly hope that you like what's coming, because we have quite a bit
> planned for next year. ;)
How much of this hinges soley on the success of San Angelo?
I mean if the only people who buy San Angelo are the one's who heard how
cool it was here on this list, would that stop the printing of a future
'Star Hero' or whatever?
A lot of people don't go for 'campaign world books' from what I myself
have seen. I could be wrong though.
Do you Mark know what, outside of the BBB or Hero System Rulebook was
the best selling Hero book? And if you do know, are you willing to tell us?
(not that I can think of a reason you wouldn't be.)
I know I plan to buy San Angelo. But I can also say I get mixed
results when I mention it. Anything from 'I don't buy campaign worlds' to
'it's on my shopping list' to 'oh? is Mark spamming that again?'
Now I for one hope it does sell well, and if after I buy it I end up liking
it will promote it myself. But if it doesn't will that stop the presses on
the other, non related hero items? Are they being judged together or
seperate? The crowd that buys into genre books like Fantasy Hero and
Danger International is often diferent from the one that buys Strike Force
and Champions Universe.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Gold Rush Games Mailing List???
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 03:28:21 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> > This is just the tip of the iceburg, folks. I've been promising for quite
> >some time that we're going to be revitalizing the Hero System line. Very soon
> >you're going to start seeing the fruits of all our labor. We aim to please,
> >and I certainly hope that you like what's coming, because we have quite a bit
> >planned for next year. ;)
>
> I'm reading this, and I'm thinking, "This sounds great, but WHEN!!!" Now I
> know nothing is immediate in the world of instant gratification that I want
> to live in, but is there some way to get on a mailing list that would send
Wow, a marketers dream come true. Not only willing to be spammed, but
asking to be put on a list of people to spam. Yeah, put me on that list
too. :)
> starting to give up on any new Hero Products and you've kind of got the hope
> going again. I know I could always receive info here on the mailing list,
> but when I go to the gaming shop I go to and say, they said on the InterNet
> that this is out, they look at me clueless, usually, because I'm rushing to
> the store before the release day. Thanks and talk at you later.
Hey, that's better than I got it. I go to the store here in San
Francisco (Gamescape on Divisadero) and ask for Ultimate Martial Artist on
disk and get:
"doesn't exist, Hero games went out of business."
So I walk to the Hero section and grab Ultimate Mentalist on disk and say:
"This is new right? Just got it from Hero Plus. Well what I want is
also from them, can you add it to my next order please?"
and get:
"doesn't exist, Hero games went out of business."
So I look through the catalog they use to order from the distributor
and find the page that lists it, get the stock number and write it all up for
them on one of their order forms, even showing them the page in their
catalog I got it from and writing that page on the order form and they say:
"doesn't exist, Hero games went out of business."
"Arg..."
Man I wish I had a credit card, I wanna order that baby and walk in there and
show both it and the postmark on the package from Hero Plus to them. Of
course I already know what their response will be:
"doesn't exist, Hero games went out of business."
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:29:56 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Slipperiness
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
> Excellent soultion to a difficult problem. Kudos to
> you! But how does it work in play?
>
I'm ashamed to admit I've done almost no playtesting with this. My
opportunities for gaming have been pretty limited in the past couple
years, so while I have a character or two written up with one version or
another of Slipperiness, I haven't actually run them. I'd be thrilled to
hear back from anyone else using either this or the Change Environment I
posted before.
In the last campaign I ran, I jokingly threatened to have the PC's
attacked by the Slipperiness Squad, a group of villains built with either
my Slipperiness power or my expanded CE. The speedster in the group
objected for some reason...
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:31:37 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: That's What I Want...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>> should apply across the board vs. all SFX. I want Absorption to be able to
>> operate as a defense without resorting to an Armor kludge. I want
>
> Why can you not grasp the whole idea of the Hero rules? We've
>explianed it a million times. Figure out the effect you want and then
>take the combined powers that will simulate that. That's why absorpion
>provides no defense. Sheesh!
Because Absorption doesn't _block_ or 'redirect' damage like armor or force
fields. It _transforms_ it from damaging 'power' to useful 'power'. It
should never have a _chance_ to do damage!
To show how _bad_ the 'armor up to absorption roll' idea is, let's consider
knockback. Why, if 'effectively' I've just 'absorbed' an attack, should I
take any knockback from it? That's right, I shouldn't. So I not only have to
buy and Armor kludge, but a Knockback Resistance kludge as well!
PLUS, look at the costs involved. Absorption = 5 points/die. Aid = 5 points
per die. I'm paying (currently) AS MUCH as I am for Aid, while getting:
A.) The same upper limit
B.) No personal control over the increase of my 'aided' power
C.) Increases dependant on the strength of the attack
D.) END free Aid.
Sorry, but IMO, the '0 END' componant of Absorption DOES NOT balance out the
two other conditions. Why does Absorption EXIST AT ALL??? I could just as
easily do this:
XD6 Aid, 0 END (+1/2), Persistant (+1/2), Only when hit by a power fitting
'Y' SFX (-1/2), Dice of Aid limited by DC of attack (-1/2).
It's virtually the SAME construct, with the same conditions. Please, if you
can, _justify_ to me the existance of Absorption at all, given that it
operates identically to this Aid construct.
Now, back to Absorption acting in a 'damage transformation' manner. Watch
how easy this is: for every die of Absorption, you REMOVE one DC of damage
from the attack. So if someone with 8D6 Absorption gets hit with a 10D6
attack, only 2 damage dice are rolled - everything else gets 'absorbed'.
Then, you roll the dice of absorption (up to the maximum) to find out how
many 'CPs' are absorbed. Clean, simple, and actually has a reason for
existance - but don't mistake it for a cheap defense!! It's JUST as
expensive as Energy Blast, on a dice for dice basis. Buying 12D6 Absorption
is as expensive as buying 40 points of Resistant PD or ED, or 60 points of
non-resistant. 40 rPD will stop a 4D6 RKA or 12D6 Energy Blast just as cold,
though it has admittedly little effect on Knockback.
In other words, having Absorption operating as a defense _separates_ it from
being just an Aid kludge, and makes it operate a lot more like the way
'comic book absorption' does, without resorting to extra, exotic add-on powers.
An additional note on the 'armor up to absorption roll' - it isn't enough.
If I've got 12D6 Absorption, I doubt I'll ever see an absorption roll over
12. Considering that a _lot_ of the absorbtion going on in comic books is
'total', an extra 12 rPD just doesn't cut it. I'd need a HUGE Absorption to
get the additional defenses 'required' to simulate the effect.
Can you not understand the meaning of the word Absorb? I'll pull out my
dictionary and rattle off some of the meanings for you:
1.) to swallow up the identity or individuality of
2.) to engross wholly
3.) to suck up or drink in
4.) to take up or recieve in by chemical or molecular action
5.) to take in without echo or recoil
Why do we have an Absorption power when it's NOT satisfying the very
definition of the word Absorb? It's not 'sucking up' the power (still does
damage), and it's certainly not doing it 'without recoil' (knockback still
applies). And - if you don't want your Absorb to negate damage, why, you
could buy a limitation to that effect, right in the power! <gasp!> Instead
of buying TWO powers (three, if you include Knockback) to 'kludge' a true
Absorptive effect, why not have ONE power that you could just limit for
discrete effects?
Why do I not 'grasp' that Absorption provides no 'defense', Mr. Gilbert?
Because it DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE, that's why! Sheesh indeed!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Special Offers to the list
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 03:33:38 +0000 (GMT)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>
> > Would the list lurkers here be in favor of occasional special offers on Hero
> >products if we were to do that? Something akin to "No shipping on orders" or a
> >slight discount? We're considering starting seasonal or holiday-themed sales
> >and I wanted to get feedback from folks here on the idea.
> >
> Of course I'd want special offers. How could I pass that up, I'm still not
> done getting every Hero Book I want :) Take it easy and talk at you later.
>
No darnit! I refuse to get a discount! In fact, I'm going to pay
double, no make that triple, heck. TEN times the cover price!!!!
Hah, thought you could fool me didn't you? :)
Hmmm
well, if you insist. I take a discount. But don't think I don't know what
you're really up to!!! (insert a little cartoony guy wringing his hands and
grinning knowlingly)
:) :) :)
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Lesson in humility (and irony)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 03:39:12 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> -Mhoram
> Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your
> two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright
>
Where do you think all that Leprechaun gold comes from? :)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:42:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: That's What I Want...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
I would like to point out that Absorbtion ala John's version should have a
seriously *large* Stop sign next to it.
I still remember a character from 3rd Edition with Absorbtion (when it
worked as a defense) and the character was virtually unstopable by any
conventional attack.
Not that I think John's version is wrong, just that GMs better be aware of
what they might be letting into the game.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:46:06 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net (Unverified)
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: That's What I Want...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>PLUS, look at the costs involved. Absorption = 5 points/die. Aid = 5 points
per >die. I'm paying (currently) AS MUCH as I am for Aid, while getting:
>
>A.) The same upper limit
>B.) No personal control over the increase of my 'aided' power
>C.) Increases dependant on the strength of the attack
>D.) END free Aid.
Oh yeah, I forgot:
E.) 1/3th the amount of CPs gained than Aid (in general, you roll 3-4 per
die of Aid, but only 1 CP per die of Absorption).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 19:47:02 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Special Offers to the list
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 07:04 PM 12/14/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
> Would the list lurkers here be in favor of occasional special offers on
Hero
>products if we were to do that? Something akin to "No shipping on orders"
or a
>slight discount? We're considering starting seasonal or holiday-themed sales
>and I wanted to get feedback from folks here on the idea.
You're really vying for a declaration of divinity, aren't you, Mark? ;-]
The "No shipping" idea sounds like the best choice among what you
mentioned.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:47:24 EST
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
In a message dated 97-12-14 08:30:43 EST, you write:
<< AJ> Actually, it does; its just that the target of an aid ordinarily
AJ> _wants_ to be hit, and thus pending extreme circumstances the attack
AJ> roll can be assumed to be successful.
An attack roll is part of the process of making an attack. If you do not
roll it, you have not made an attack.
>>
Ummm... Check out page 57 HSR under the Power List... Look at Aid, under the
Target column, it states "Target's DCV". That would make Aid an 'attack
power' requiring an Attack Roll.
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:57:16 EST
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage o
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
In a message dated 97-12-14 16:29:55 EST, you write:
<< F > Limitation has therefore put you at a disadvantage. Now, GMs must
F > closely
F > monitor characters with the Linked Disad, so they don't simply buy
F > another
F > Flash. If that's the case, then the Linked Flash has lost it's
F > Limitation
F > value, and deserves no points.
F >
F > 'Lynx
F > ---
So, they don't get points for it... do they still get to take
it and fire the two powers at once?
50 10d EB
20 linked 3d Flash -1/2
--
70 and linked is valid, by your interpretation...
but, if the character has the EB in a multipower with
a similar Flash, then he gets no points for the Linked
50 Multipower
3 3d Flash
5 10d EB
30 3d Flash linked to EB -0
--
88
Right?
But wait... if the linked 3d flash isn't limited...
Why do I need to go and buy the 2nd 3d Flash?
I mean, if a mutant character has 3d Killing, 0END
(laser eye beams), and decides to get an 'Infinity
Inc' Laser pistol (3d Killing, 0 END, OAF)... does
he not get the Focus limitation, because he always
has a 3d RKA ready to use at 0END? I mean, that
seems to be the logic you're using... So this
mutant is paying 135 pts and he basicly has a
3d KA, 0 END....
>>
Sorry for the misunderstanding... I should have said "GM should then not allow
the Linked Flash", after "deserves no points". In other words, if you're not
being limited by the Limitation, it's not worth any points, and shouldn't be
allowed. My mistake.
'Lynx
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 04:09:10 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> I've always seen the seperation of Acro. and B-fall (from the earlier
> all-inclusive AcroBatics) to represent the more combat-useful (B-fall)
> aspect in one, and the more non-combat or SFX useful (Acro.) But I'm
> probably wrong, eh?
>
Hmm.
I have trouble myself seeing how the two skills could have been grouped
together in the first place. It's a very diferent knowledge set.
I for one can do Breakfall quite well. Judo training when I was
younger and then years of going off jumps on a dirt bike but not always
landing with the bike still under me (try having your steering wheel come
off in mid-air, I still remember that one...) taught me to fall
from high distances at rapid speeds and still avoid the fractures and
broken bones the other people would get. As for straight drops; I can pull
about a 10 foot drop before it starts to hurt.
But I in no way can do the splits, back flips an assorted gymnastic
manuevers.
From: "Sean Pavlish" <pavlish@erols.com>
Subject: Re: My BBB's falling apart!
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:13:05 -0500
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><< Right down the middle. The spines of the books from various RPG companies
>just don't seem to hack it anymore... What do they do... Look for the
>cheapest glue out there on the market? >>
>
> Sometimes they do (indirectly). You see, when a company prints a book it
has
>to way several factors, including their cost to print the book. So logically
>they tend to steer toward the printers whose quotes are less than the more
>expensive printers. That saves the consumer (that's you) money because the
>publisher can keep the retail cost a bit lower.
>
> However, the down side is that in order to *give* those lower quotes, some
>printers use lower quality materials, from the paper stock, to inks, to glue
>for the binding. It's not something the publisher chooses, like "Hey, use
that
>crappy glue there. Will that save me a penny per book on printing and binding
>costs?" <LOL> That's why when the old BBB started falling apart, the folks at
>ICE and Hero were as shocked and displeased as anyone.
>
Come on now Mark. We all know it is a conspiracy by you all at the top of the
line to get us to buy lots of cheap books knowing full well that we will be
back to buy them again when they fall apart....
Uh, sprinkle lots of LOL in above message....
Sean
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 04:13:59 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>
> On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
>
> > Often times what I let my players do is give me "comparisons" I can relate
> > to. Things like "I do a double back-flip like Jackie Chan did in that one
> > scene in Armor of God VII" and I say "Okay. Make your roll." ;)
>
> No way man, Jackie vs Bennie in "Dragons Forever"!
>
Naw, the scene in City Hunter where he gets slammed into a video
game machine and comes out as the girl in Street Fighter II (but the actor
still being Jackie), then the other guy turns into Ken and starts shooting
blasts at him.
But I don't know if that one's been brought over into english yet. I
saw it in Chinese while living in asia.
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:42:42 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> That brings up another question: What kind of illo would you folks like to
>see for the cover? A collage of different scenes? A comic-booky sort of illo
>(usually a fight scene)?
Well, it depends on the book for the artwork. If you were doing a core Hero
System Rule Book, I would pepper it with different genres so that new people
can see all the possibilities the game had. If you were doing a Genre
specific book, you want to bring the cover as close to the game as possible.
Ie. SuperHero = Comic Book Look, Western = Wanted Poster Look
I don't know just suggestions.
> One other note. Keep in mind that, primarily because of financial
>considerations, we are looking at printing the Hero System rules book
>separately, with Champions being a genre book. Champions would have the super
>power rules in there, as well as a *much* better treatment of the genre,
>examples, no "official universe" inside (rather examples and notes on creating
>several different types, etc., but the Hero System "core" rules would be in
>the Hero System rules book.
Actually this is a great idea. Keep in mind though that by doing this it
suggests you will be putting out other genre books. Not just the core book
and the hero book :) Take it easy and talk at you later.
Sparx
=====================================================
Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children.
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Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:44:18 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> Since it seems that the majority of folks (onthis list, anyway) would like
>to see more cardboard minis, let me ask you this: Would you be willing to pay
>an extra $2 for a book that had them included?
>
> Mark @ GRG
Of course, I'd paid two extra bucks for some good card board heroes. What I
mean by good would be a front and back, decent artwork and something that
wouldn't fall apart the first time one of my players spilt of glass of soda
on them. Happens you know. And more then just heroes, sci-fi characters,
westerns, police, agents, etc... Looking for the works here. Take it easy
and talk at you later.
Sparx
=====================================================
Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children.
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Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:46:54 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: PART
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> The supplement will also include some new villains (from the "PART case
>files"), a few new skills, some tips on playing and GMing PART adventures,
>creating PART PCs (in case some folks go for that sort of thing), PART tactics
>(just how *do* they capture and transport those supervillains?), some PART-
>based adventures, NPC write-ups of PART personnel, and so on.
I'm looking for it already. I love things like this myself. I ran
something along these lines, I had the Guardians which were my version of
PART it sounds like. It was a fun game, but I stuck with SuperHero because
it is what my players wanted at the time, I'm still interested in trying to
get another game going along those lines and PART sounds perfect. Take it
easy and talk at you later.
Sparx
=====================================================
Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 00:02:25 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> >> One "simplified" way to handle Acrobatics in combat is to have the player
> >> make an Acrobatics Skill Roll for his PC, and use the Complementary
> Skill roll
> >> rules. I.e., for every 2 full points he makes the roll by, give him +1
> Combat
> >> Level to be applied to OCV or DCV (player's choice) for that Action/Phase.
> >> What do you think?
> >
> >That has the potential to become highly unbalancing for a three point
> >skill.
> >
> >Any DEX 29-31 martial artist will have a 15- Acrobatics and since the
> >average of 3d6 is 11, routinely get +2 to his CV *every* Phase. For only
> >3 points!
>
> I think it could still work if a failure means that the character falls
> his Acrobatics Roll, cannot make an attack that Phase, is at half DCV, and
> must spend a half Phase the next Phase to get up.
Then also consider this, 14- is close to (or above) 75%, while 15- is
hitting 90% (I think). In most 250 point martial artists have DEX of 24+,
usually 26+, meaning that they will be getting a nice bennie at *low*
risk. If you want that, buy some CSLs with a limitations "must make
Acrobatics roll".
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
From: Pat10355 <Pat10355@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 00:07:10 EST
Subject: Greetings II: Revenge of Greetings
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Hello,
I've just joined the mailing list and I wanted to quickly introduce myself.
I'm Patrick Sweeney, a Champions player since the very first edition and the
author of the forthcoming San Angelo: City of Heroes campaign book from Gold
Rush Games.
I can tell this is an extremely active list -- I've already gotten several
dozen e-mails and I only joined a couple of days ago.
No big queries or commentary yet ... I expect you'll have some for me once the
book comes out in January, and I'm looking forward to your feedback. I just
wanted to say hi. Oh, and to apologize for accidentally sending my subscribe
message to the mailing list instead of the owner. <doh!>
Patrick Sweeney
San Angelo: City of Heroes
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:08:05 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>Yeah, there was a bad batch of books printed way back. But from what I
>heard at the time, if you sent your book back to ICE, they replaced it,
>which seems fair. I bought mine when it first came out, but mine hasn't
>fallen apart, so I don't think all of them were poorly done.
>
>-Nic
Yeah, my book fell apart and a nice letter to ICE got me a new BBB. I found
this very professional and appreciated it greatly. Part of a good business
is making sure you stand behind your product. Take it easy and talk at you
later.
Sparx
=====================================================
Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 00:14:33 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Avengers vs. X-Men
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> Oh, yeah, that. I hadn't ever heard of that before the recent issue I
> picked up... she's hunting for Gambit in (I believe) Antarctica and
> mentions that it's buzzing like crazy... and that it had been inactive for
> a *long* while.
Must have an 8- roll;)
>
> Does Mjolnir come back every time he throws it? (Straight EB, OAF) Or is
> it sometimes caught/deflected?
It's been deflected but it seems to nearly always return. In fact,
Juggernaut once stopped the hammer short of hitting him, then grabbed the
hammer and let it pull him back to Thor, using the veolcity to add to his
strength and sending Thor through several trains. I've always liked
Juggy.
TokyoMark
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:15:55 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> One "simplified" way to handle Acrobatics in combat is to have the player
>make an Acrobatics Skill Roll for his PC, and use the Complementary Skill roll
>rules. I.e., for every 2 full points he makes the roll by, give him +1 Combat
>Level to be applied to OCV or DCV (player's choice) for that Action/Phase.
>What do you think?
I play my game by this as well provided the player has good reasoning behind
the maneuver. I also don't allow every player to run around with
Acrobatics. I also throw the added risk in it, for every full two you miss
the roll by you suffer -1 OCV or DCV depending on what you were going to add
it to. If you roll an 18 on the Acrobatics roll you halve both OCV and DCV
for the phase, you messed up big! Just my rule for Acrobatics, but it works
pretty well. Take it easy and talk at you later.
Sparx
=====================================================
Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children.
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Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 00:18:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7
cc: champ-l@omg.org, sengoku@dryland.mandarin.org
Subject: Re: Ninjato
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> According to some sources, some ninja were descended from samurai clans, and
> thuis already had access to weapons and such. As far as stealing, of course
> that was the case on occasion. Once the ninja became a stronger "political"
> force, however (ca. 14th-16th centuries, I believe), they had money from their
> patrons to sustain them, not to mention their own artisans and craftsmen.
>
> And to get back to the original point, the ninjato were straighter (although
> not perfectly straight) because they were easier and less expensive to make
> than the high-quality katana/tachi and wakizashi. Ninja considered the ninjato
> a tool, not a piece of art.
It's been interesting comparing this discussion with what I already knew
of the katana and ninjato. I originally started this by commenting that I
didn't think the ninjato should have the +1 stun mult since that made it a
superior sword to the katana. Gold Rush has seemed to agree with this and
while Rat disagreed, his comments, especially all the comparisons that
made the ninjato sound pretty much like a katana with a slightly different
look. So, I'm going to go ahead and adjust it to match a katana for games
I run.
TokyoMark
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:21:04 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Gold Rush Games Mailing List???
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
><< Wow, I like this new emphasis on Genre books...>>
>
> This is just the tip of the iceburg, folks. I've been promising for quite
>some time that we're going to be revitalizing the Hero System line. Very soon
>you're going to start seeing the fruits of all our labor. We aim to please,
>and I certainly hope that you like what's coming, because we have quite a bit
>planned for next year. ;)
>
> Mark @ GRG
I'm reading this, and I'm thinking, "This sounds great, but WHEN!!!" Now I
know nothing is immediate in the world of instant gratification that I want
to live in, but is there some way to get on a mailing list that would send
out product info? Release Dates? Ads? I'd prefer snail mail, e-mail is
ok, and yes, I could always go to the web site. I was just curious. I was
starting to give up on any new Hero Products and you've kind of got the hope
going again. I know I could always receive info here on the mailing list,
but when I go to the gaming shop I go to and say, they said on the InterNet
that this is out, they look at me clueless, usually, because I'm rushing to
the store before the release day. Thanks and talk at you later.
Sparx
=====================================================
Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children.
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Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:22:53 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Special Offers to the list
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> Would the list lurkers here be in favor of occasional special offers on Hero
>products if we were to do that? Something akin to "No shipping on orders" or a
>slight discount? We're considering starting seasonal or holiday-themed sales
>and I wanted to get feedback from folks here on the idea.
>
> Mark @ GRG
Of course I'd want special offers. How could I pass that up, I'm still not
done getting every Hero Book I want :) Take it easy and talk at you later.
Sparx
=====================================================
Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children.
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Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 21:26:26 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Extra Time on a Triggere
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Opal wrote:
>
> I believe it's halved... If it isn't officially, you can always
> declare a variant to that effect.
>
> Note that, but default, Trigger effects the item/person it's put
> on... In this case, the *needle* is going to be drugged... :)
> You have to buy AE, with a limitation that it only affects the
> one target, to get around this (well, UBO or UAO, or something
> might work) (darn, I have to get a new HSR! practically
> memorized just isn't quite the same)
You sure about this? I couldn't see anything in the
write-up about that. I put a trigger on an energy blast. You are
saying that because I did that, I lose the ranged aspect of the
blast?
I think the above device has been brought with a trigger
but also as a foci. Hence, the mixing and loading of the needle,
which takes 5 minutes, has already been done and all that remains
is injecting it.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 00:31:43 EST
Subject: Fwd: Ninjato
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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Here is a reply to the ninjato thread that I sent to the Sengoku list.
Mark @ GRG
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From: tanuki@takamori.southern.co.nz (Dorian Davis)
To: sengoku@dryland.mandarin.org
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:05:07 GMT-13
Subject: Re: Ninjato
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Haifuku
Mark, replying to ? writes:
> <<, "Ninjato" can be either a specific type of sword, or literally
> "ninja sword", a sword owned and used by a ninja. *Some* ninjato
> (the second meaning) were converted from katana, and many of them
> had their blades straightened in the conversion. >>
Ninjato? Should be ninja ken, or shinobigatana.
> If you were to "straighten" a traditional katana, whether by
> heating and pressure, or whatever, you'd ruin the blade! That's the
> most ridiculous thing I've heard in a long time.
First I've heard of it. Once the sori (curvature) is set, it can't
be altered (unless, of course, the sword is reduced to a molten mass
of metal again).
> And to get back to the original point, the ninjato were straighter
> (although not perfectly straight) because they were easier and less
> expensive to make than the high-quality katana/tachi and
> wakizashi. Ninja considered the ninjato a tool, not a piece of art.
Shinobigatana were usually "home" forged 'straight' slabs of steel,
with a single cutting edge. Their length was kept short to facilitate
fighting in close quarters; and to allow the wearer to move quickly
and silently in cramped spaces.
The blade had to be utilitarian because it was also used to cut
through, or pry open, doors, hatches, or windowframes. The
less-refined cutting edge meant that the swordsman relied more on
body weight in motion behind the sword; and typical techniques were
slamming stabs and sawing, dragged-edged cuts. To keep silent and
act wise/ Still not as good
as drinking sake/ Getting drunk and weeping.
Otomo no Tabito (665 - 731)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:00:18 -0700
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
Subject: Re: Lesson in humility (and irony)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Captain Spith wrote:
>
> Curtis Gibson wrote:
>
> > After the fight I asked about the monstrosity the GM built and was
> > informed "I didn't built it, you did. I just used your writeup of the
> > psycho Cat and added a few things for Special Effects." oops.
> >
> > Now, you tell me, is it fair to use a that thing I built (a little, no
> > a lot munchkin) back on us. 8)
>
> Not only was it fair, it was commendable!
Sorry. I thought I had put enough sarcasm in my original post. The "was
it fair" line was meant tounge firmly in cheek. Even as a player I
appreciated the irony of the team being beat up by a monstrosity that I
thought was perhaps a little excessive, then finding out that _I_ had
built it. Hoist by my own petard. 8)
>
First of all, you had GM
> approval to run the character yourself in the first place; not even all
> NPCs would have GM OK as PCs.
Actually it was a PC, that turned villian, so I ran the villian part of
the plot.
> Secondly, and most importantly, it was
> fine storytelling, as he took an element from the game and developed it
> further. This is what a lot the less imaginative games lack. Some
> games will have an adventure, run it through, then never hear of it
> again; bringing back characters, events and reprecussions from the past
> help players feel more connected to their world, and lets them know that
> their prescence makes a difference. Okay, not always a positive one....
I agree totally. In my many years of playing champs, my current GM is
one of the two best I have ever run. He has a true sense of story and
development.
--
-Mhoram
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your
two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 00:12:35 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: That's What I Want...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>
> Why do I not 'grasp' that Absorption provides no 'defense', Mr. Gilbert?
> Because it DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE, that's why! Sheesh indeed!
First of all. IT'S GILBERG! NOT GILBERT! GILBERG! YOU HEAR!
Okay, then. Now that issue's cleared, we can move on.
> Because Absorption doesn't _block_ or 'redirect' damage like armor or force
> fields. It _transforms_ it from damaging 'power' to useful 'power'. It
> should never have a _chance_ to do damage!
That's _one_ interpretation and SFX of the power provided in the
HSR. There very well could be others that do not fit the above. Why does
everything have to work like the one you have?
> To show how _bad_ the 'armor up to absorption roll' idea is, let's consider
> knockback. Why, if 'effectively' I've just 'absorbed' an attack, should I
> take any knockback from it? That's right, I shouldn't. So I not only have to
> buy and Armor kludge, but a Knockback Resistance kludge as well!
Um. Only fair. Absorption is cheap enough as it is. And for
many SFX, the absorption does hit and affect.
> PLUS, look at the costs involved. Absorption = 5 points/die. Aid = 5 points
> per die. I'm paying (currently) AS MUCH as I am for Aid, while getting:
>
> A.) The same upper limit
> B.) No personal control over the increase of my 'aided' power
> C.) Increases dependant on the strength of the attack
> D.) END free Aid.
Well, actually, this was one of the changes that are to occur in
the Champions rules. Aid will become a 10 pts/die power. AID is
underpriced and broken, so of course Absorption will seem to expensive.
> Sorry, but IMO, the '0 END' componant of Absorption DOES NOT balance out the
> two other conditions. Why does Absorption EXIST AT ALL??? I could just as
> easily do this:
>
> XD6 Aid, 0 END (+1/2), Persistant (+1/2), Only when hit by a power fitting
> 'Y' SFX (-1/2), Dice of Aid limited by DC of attack (-1/2).
>
> It's virtually the SAME construct, with the same conditions. Please, if you
> can, _justify_ to me the existance of Absorption at all, given that it
> operates identically to this Aid construct.
Actually, I've always thought that one could do it exactly this
way. Sort of like Gliding being unnecessary with its similarity to
Flight.
> Now, back to Absorption acting in a 'damage transformation' manner. Watch
> how easy this is: for every die of Absorption, you REMOVE one DC of damage
> from the attack. So if someone with 8D6 Absorption gets hit with a 10D6
> attack, only 2 damage dice are rolled - everything else gets 'absorbed'.
Nice, but very, very effective. Over effective, really.
> Then, you roll the dice of absorption (up to the maximum) to find out how
> many 'CPs' are absorbed. Clean, simple, and actually has a reason for
> existance - but don't mistake it for a cheap defense!! It's JUST as
> expensive as Energy Blast, on a dice for dice basis. Buying 12D6 Absorption
> is as expensive as buying 40 points of Resistant PD or ED, or 60 points of
> non-resistant. 40 rPD will stop a 4D6 RKA or 12D6 Energy Blast just as cold,
> though it has admittedly little effect on Knockback.
Yeah, but for the same cost you are also getting free AID to
certain powers or characteristics. And the free KB resist isn't minor.
It works out to be about 1" per die. KB can have major effects in games.
> In other words, having Absorption operating as a defense _separates_ it from
> being just an Aid kludge, and makes it operate a lot more like the way
> 'comic book absorption' does, without resorting to extra, exotic add-on powers.
Some Comic Book absorption. There are other genres, but I'll
assume you ignore those for now.
>
> An additional note on the 'armor up to absorption roll' - it isn't enough.
> If I've got 12D6 Absorption, I doubt I'll ever see an absorption roll over
> 12. Considering that a _lot_ of the absorbtion going on in comic books is
> 'total', an extra 12 rPD just doesn't cut it. I'd need a HUGE Absorption to
> get the additional defenses 'required' to simulate the effect.
Um. Then take a lesser defense. Heck, just buy defense with the
SFX of being absorbed.
> Can you not understand the meaning of the word Absorb? I'll pull out my
> dictionary and rattle off some of the meanings for you:
>
> 1.) to swallow up the identity or individuality of
> 2.) to engross wholly
> 3.) to suck up or drink in
> 4.) to take up or recieve in by chemical or molecular action
> 5.) to take in without echo or recoil
Um. Your point? A dictionary definition is not rules, nor should
it be. Look up the definition of energy and blast while you're at it. Or
missile deflection. Or many of the other powers in Hero that don't fit a
Webster's definition of their names. The name is just that, a name. It
describes a set of game effects. Use the game effects of various powers
to make up a SFX. That's the Hero System. You should have gotten that
back in 101. I'm afraid you're going to have to repeat that class.
-Tim Gilberg
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:01:19 EST
Subject: GRG Product List
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
I thought folks on the list would like to know what we have to offer, what's
in the works (indicated by a "TBA" or a release date in the left column) and
also to know what's out of print (in book form). I beg forgieveness in advance
from those who don't want this info.
Mark @ GRG
--------------------------------------------------------
PRODUCT LIST w/ISBN
Release Stock# ISBN Title Price
BLACK GATE PUBLISHING
BG2000 0-9641722-0-8 Legacy: War of Ages RPG 25.00
BG2100 0-9641722-1-6 Blades: Immortal Steel 18.00
TBA BG2110 TBA Sentinels: Mortal Enemies 18.00
TBA BG3000 TBA Warlock: Black Spiral 25.00
CRUNCHY FROG / NIGHTSHIFT GAMES
CF1700 N/A Hidden Invasion RPG 19.95
CF1701 N/A Things To Come 14.95
TBA TBA TBA Vampire Hunter$ TBA
CF3000 N/A Critter Commandos 7.95
CF3100 N/A Critter-Tek 14.95
CF1000 N/A Duel RPG 7.95
CF0050 N/A Voidstriker 8.95
CF5000 N/A $tar Corp$: Call to Battle! 9.95
CF200A N/A Toy War 2: The Next Generation 4.95
LICENSED HERO SYSTEM BOOKS
H100 1-890305-00-6 Heroic Adventures Vol. 1 16.00
H101 1-890305-01-4 Heroic Adventures Vol. 2 16.00
TBA H102 1-890305-07-3 Heroic Adventures Vol. 3 16.00
TBA H103 1-890305-09-X Crime & Crime Again 16.00
Spr'98 H104 1-890305-08-1 Sands of Time 16.00
Dec'97 H300 1-890305-03-0 San Angelo: City of Heroes 25.00
TBA H301 1-890305-13-8 Enemies of San Angelo 16.00
TBA H302 1-890305-14-6 Denizens of San Angelo 16.00
TBA H303 TBA San Angelo Map Book 16.00
TBA H304 TBA San Angelo Adventures 16.00
HERO GAMES
HG406 1-55806-082-0 The Zodiac Conspiracy 11.00
HG410 1-55806-104-5 Kingdom of Champions 18.00
HG411 1-55806-109-6 Champions in 3-D 16.00
HG418 1-55806-123-1 Champions Presents 14.00
HG420 1-55806-160-6 Normals Unbound 13.00
HG422 1-55806-173-8 Hi Tech Enemies 13.00
HG423 1-55806-177-0 Dark Champions 20.00
HG424 1-55806-178-9 Champions Presents #2 15.00
HG426 1-55806-181-9 Shadows of the City 15.00
HG427 1-55806-183-5 Allies 13.00
HG428 1-55806-186-X The Mutant File 13.00
HG429 Creatures of the Night 13.00
HG430 1-55806-194-0 Justice, Not Law 15.00
HG431 1-55806-197-5 Underworld Enemies 13.00
HG433 1-55806-206-8 Murderer's Row 13.00
HG434 1-55806-208-4 Corporations 14.00
HG436 1-55806-212-2 Golden Age Champions 20.00
HG437 1-55806-220-3 Pyramid in the Sky 16.00
HG438 1-55806-223-8 Hudson City Blues 16.00
HG439 1-55806-227-0 Enemies For Hire 15.00
HG440 1-55806-230-0 Enemies Assemble! 15.00
HG441 1-55806-242-4 Atlantis 15.00
HG442 1-55806-248-3 Watchers of the Dragon 20.00
HG451 Champions Deluxe (w/o disk) 35.00
HG500 Hero System Rulebook 20.00
HG501 1-55806-095-2 Ninja Hero 17.00
HG504 1-55806-118-5 Western Hero 20.00
HG507 1-55806-168-1 Hero Bestiary 18.00
HG511 1-55806-225-4 Hero System Almanac 2 15.00
PROPAGANDA PUBLISHING
PP9000 N/A Shattered Sky RPG 16.00
PP9001 N/A Shattered Sky GM Screen 11.95
SENGOKU
Dec '97 S100 1-890305-10-3 Sengoku: Chambara Role-playing in Feudal
Japan 25.00
TBA S101 1-890305-11-1 Shadows of Nihon 16.00
TBA S102 1-890305-12-X The Middle Kingdom 16.00
TBA S103 TBA Magic Sourcebook 16.00
TBA S104 TBA Sengoku GM Screen 15.00
LICENSED TRAVELLER BOOKS
TBA T100 1-890305-04-9 New Voyages Vol. 1: The Kargol Confederation 16.00
TBA T101 1-890305-05-7 New Voyages Vol. 2: Derelict! 16.00
TBA T102 1-890305-06-5 New Voyages Vol. 3: The Phoenix Foundation 16.00
TBA T103 TBA New Voyages Vol. 4: Starship Yakaze 16.00
USAGI YOJIMBO
Dec'97 U100 1-890305-02-2 Usagi Yojimbo RPG 16.00
WINGNUT GAMES
WG3000 N/A Battle Cattle 7.95
WG2100 N/A OG: The Role Playing Game 7.95
OUT OF PRINT
CS001 N/A Cyberpunk: Night City Trax
HG022 0-915795-63-9 Super Agents
HG032 0-915795-94-9 Wings of the Valkyrie
HG050 1-55806-056-1 Star Hero
HG402 1-55806-041-3 Mind Games
HG403 1-55806-044-8 Classic Enemies
HG404 1-55806-046-4 Challenges For Champions
HG405 1-55806-075-8 Mystic Masters
HG407 1-55806-049-9 Invasions: Target Earth
HG408 1-55806-101-0 Day of the Destroyer
HG413 1-55806-112-6 Alien Enemies
HG414 1-55806-114-2 The Olympians
HG416 1-55806-119-3 Classic Organizations
HG417 1-55806-120-7 European Enemies
HG419 1-55806-157-6 Champions of the North
HG421 1-55806-167-3 Champions Universe
HG425 1-55806-179-7 VIPER
HG432 1-55806-204-1 An Eye for an Eye
HG450 1-55806-043-X Champions (softcover)
HG451D Champions Deluxe w/HeroMaker
HG502 1-55806-102-9 Fantasy Hero
HG503 1-55806-104-5 Fantasy Hero Companion I
HG505 1-55806-152-5 Cyber Hero
HG506 Fantasy Hero Companion II
HG508 1-55806-184-3 Hero System Almanac I
HG509 1-55806-203-3 Horror Hero
HG510 1-55806-215-7 The Ultimate Martial Artist
HG512 1-55806-232-7 The Ultimate Mentalist
Heroic Adventures, Sengoku: Chambara Roleplaying in Fuedal Japan, New Voyages,
Night City Trax and San Angelo: City of Heroes are trademarks of Gold Rush
Games. Fuzion is a trademark of The Fuzion Group and used uder license.
Champions and the Hero System are trademarks of Hero Games and used under
license. Cyberpunk is a trademark of R. Talsorian Games, Inc. and used under
license. Traveller is a trademark of Far Future Enterprises and used under
license. Legacy is a trademark of Black Gate Publishing and used under
license. Usagi Yojimbo is a trademark of Usagi Studios and used under license.
Battle Cattle and OG are trademarks of Wingnut Games. Shattered Sky is a
trademark of Propaganda Publishing.
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:14:19 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: That's What I Want...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>> Why do I not 'grasp' that Absorption provides no 'defense', Mr. Gilbert?
>> Because it DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE, that's why! Sheesh indeed!
>
> First of all. IT'S GILBERG! NOT GILBERT! GILBERG! YOU HEAR!
Oops, I usually don't do that ^_^.
>
> Okay, then. Now that issue's cleared, we can move on.
>
>> Because Absorption doesn't _block_ or 'redirect' damage like armor or force
>> fields. It _transforms_ it from damaging 'power' to useful 'power'. It
>> should never have a _chance_ to do damage!
>
> That's _one_ interpretation and SFX of the power provided in the
>HSR. There very well could be others that do not fit the above. Why does
>everything have to work like the one you have?
It doesn't. But it's probably easier (and cleaner!) to limit a single power
to create sub-effects than use several powers in kludgy conjunction.
>> To show how _bad_ the 'armor up to absorption roll' idea is, let's consider
>> knockback. Why, if 'effectively' I've just 'absorbed' an attack, should I
>> take any knockback from it? That's right, I shouldn't. So I not only have to
>> buy and Armor kludge, but a Knockback Resistance kludge as well!
>
> Um. Only fair. Absorption is cheap enough as it is. And for
>many SFX, the absorption does hit and affect.
Absorption is cheap?? Since when? Compared to Aid, it's grossly expensive
and practically useless.
>
>> PLUS, look at the costs involved. Absorption = 5 points/die. Aid = 5 points
>> per die. I'm paying (currently) AS MUCH as I am for Aid, while getting:
>>
>> A.) The same upper limit
>> B.) No personal control over the increase of my 'aided' power
>> C.) Increases dependant on the strength of the attack
>> D.) END free Aid.
And E.) 1/3 the result of a like-diced Aid
> Well, actually, this was one of the changes that are to occur in
>the Champions rules. Aid will become a 10 pts/die power. AID is
>underpriced and broken, so of course Absorption will seem to expensive.
Then what happens to the price of Transfer? IMHO it's overpriced...sure, you
rob an opponant while Aiding yourself, but first you need a handy
opponant...Transfer should at least have no 'drain' cap (not sure if it
currently does, but it seems implied).
>> Sorry, but IMO, the '0 END' componant of Absorption DOES NOT balance out the
>> two other conditions. Why does Absorption EXIST AT ALL??? I could just as
>> easily do this:
>>
>> XD6 Aid, 0 END (+1/2), Persistant (+1/2), Only when hit by a power fitting
>> 'Y' SFX (-1/2), Dice of Aid limited by DC of attack (-1/2).
>>
>> It's virtually the SAME construct, with the same conditions. Please, if you
>> can, _justify_ to me the existance of Absorption at all, given that it
>> operates identically to this Aid construct.
>
> Actually, I've always thought that one could do it exactly this
>way. Sort of like Gliding being unnecessary with its similarity to
>Flight.
So you agree with me (in principle) that the Absorption construct is
redundant. 3D6 of the above Aid is as good as 9D6 of the regular
'Absorption', provided you rate the Aid to '1 die per 3 DC of attack'.
>> Now, back to Absorption acting in a 'damage transformation' manner. Watch
>> how easy this is: for every die of Absorption, you REMOVE one DC of damage
>> from the attack. So if someone with 8D6 Absorption gets hit with a 10D6
>> attack, only 2 damage dice are rolled - everything else gets 'absorbed'.
>
> Nice, but very, very effective. Over effective, really.
Possibly, though it could go up to 10 points a die, which, IMHO, would be
fair. And of course it should be 'Looking Glass' or 'STOP Sign'.
>> Buying 12D6 Absorption
>> is as expensive as buying 40 points of Resistant PD or ED, or 60 points of
>> non-resistant. 40 rPD will stop a 4D6 RKA or 12D6 Energy Blast just as cold,
>> though it has admittedly little effect on Knockback.
>
> Yeah, but for the same cost you are also getting free AID to
>certain powers or characteristics. And the free KB resist isn't minor.
>It works out to be about 1" per die. KB can have major effects in games.
Not a hell of a lot of Aid, though. Functionally only 25% of a like-diced
Aid. And I don't think KB is 1" per die of attack. More like 1/2" per die.
>> In other words, having Absorption operating as a defense _separates_ it from
>> being just an Aid kludge, and makes it operate a lot more like the way
>> 'comic book absorption' does, without resorting to extra, exotic add-on
>> powers.
>
> Some Comic Book absorption. There are other genres, but I'll
>assume you ignore those for now.
No, I assume that you can just limit the Absorption power to generate
discrete effects if you want. As it stands, Absorption is redundant in the
face of Aid. At least this 'absorption as a defense' idea makes Absorption a
'separate' power - and isn't HERO about having (mostly) unique powers with
which to fit the special effects?
>> An additional note on the 'armor up to absorption roll' - it isn't enough.
>> If I've got 12D6 Absorption, I doubt I'll ever see an absorption roll over
>> 12. Considering that a _lot_ of the absorbtion going on in comic books is
>> 'total', an extra 12 rPD just doesn't cut it. I'd need a HUGE Absorption to
>> get the additional defenses 'required' to simulate the effect.
>
> Um. Then take a lesser defense. Heck, just buy defense with the
>SFX of being absorbed.
A possibility, but it doesn't 'feel' right.
>> Can you not understand the meaning of the word Absorb? I'll pull out my
>> dictionary and rattle off some of the meanings for you:
>>
>> 1.) to swallow up the identity or individuality of
>> 2.) to engross wholly
>> 3.) to suck up or drink in
>> 4.) to take up or recieve in by chemical or molecular action
>> 5.) to take in without echo or recoil
>
>
> Um. Your point? A dictionary definition is not rules, nor should
>it be. Look up the definition of energy and blast while you're at it. Or
>missile deflection. Or many of the other powers in Hero that don't fit a
>Webster's definition of their names.
They most certainly do! An energy blast is a blast of energy. Missile
deflection is the deflection of missiles (broadened to most ranged attacks).
Desolidification lets the user become non-solid. Suppress supresses a power.
Why doesn't the Absorbtion power absorb?
>Use the game effects of various powers
>to make up a SFX. That's the Hero System. You should have gotten that
>back in 101. I'm afraid you're going to have to repeat that class.
You keep chanting that like a mantra. Look, if my idea is so damn wacky,
then why have previous editions had Absorption as a defense? Yes, it was
changed, but that doesn't mean that the change was RIGHT. Nor does it mean
that the old power was right either - it just means that I think the whole
thing should be re-examined in the light of a potential 5th edition. I got
class 101, probably better than you did, because I've moved up to 422
'Re-examining the assumptions behind the various powers'. Maybe you missed
that course.
<Everyone else: Sorry if this is getting a little nasty, but that's the
second time Gilberg has accused me of 'not grasping the fundamentals of
HERO', like the mechanics were some sort of sacred cow that cannot be
improved, and if I could just grasp the whole power/SFX thing that
everything would be okay. Well, then why are we all still arguing about
Linked and Slipperyness if the system is so perfect??>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:18:45 EST
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< But I still want the palyer to describe to me in some detail what amazing
acrobatic feat he's performing to get this bonus.>>
Then give him +1 for every 2 points he makes the roll by. ;)
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:22:09 EST
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< But I still want the palyer to describe to me in some detail what amazing
acrobatic feat he's performing to get this bonus.>>
Doh! I meant to reply, "Then give him +1 for ever 4 points he makes it by if
he refuses to the maneuver." ;)
Seriously, though, one thing about RP games is that many players don't
really *know* what their characters can do, at least not in real world terms.
For instance, I may have Computer Programming 8- in the real world, but if my
character has a 14- in it, I'd be fluffing my way through any descriptions my
GM asked me for.
Often times what I let my players do is give me "comparisons" I can relate
to. Things like "I do a double back-flip like Jackie Chan did in that one
scene in Armor of God VII" and I say "Okay. Make your roll." ;)
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:24:12 EST
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< Of course, if you wanted it to sell out in the millions, get Jim Lee
to do the cover... >>
At this point if it would sell more books....
...nah!
<LOL>
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:29:17 EST
Subject: Re: Art in GRG's Hero books
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Just so some folks know (in advance), the artists we're using include:
Steve Bryant (of FASA fame)
Storn Cook (of Hero & Star Wars RPG fame)
Albert Deschesne
Louis Frank (anyone read "Haymaker!"?)
Bryce Nakagawa
Greg Smith (of Hero fame)
We're also looking for additional artists for future books, so if you know
someone who'd be interested in illustrating for us have them drop us a line.
We currently pay $100 per published page (i.e, $25 for each 1/4-page illo) for
publishing rights.
Mark @ GRG
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:39:26 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Ha! I KNEW it!! Magic is EVIL!!!]
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Bob Greenwade wrote:
> Just as a point of fact: the actual "smug a-hole" who started it was
> posting a bunch of derogatory comments about Christians.
Actually, to be fair, the smug a-hole who started it was making
comments about a _small_group_ of christians; specifically, those who
televangelize and proclaim the existence of Satan in RPGs (and 'RPG Card
Games'). I read no sweeping condemnation of Bible-followers as a whole
in the original posting. Nor did my follow-up posting imply a general
inclusion, rather a poke specifically at the media-slut factions of the
Biblical Folks.
It wasn't until somebody included themselves, then took offense, that
things got ugly.
Please, people, many if not most comments on this - and probably many
others - list are targeted at a group defined by the comments of the
post itself, unless explicitly stated otherwise. If a posting starts
lambasting - say - powergamers, and you are not a powergamer, (get ready
for it...) then the posting is NOT directed at you!
This kind of misunderstanding has spurred innumerable week-lond
heated debates and personal arguements on this list on many topics, so
please take a moment to reflect on the 'target audience' before you take
offense to a posting.
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: Ninjato
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 03:00:40 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> >
> > And to get back to the original point, the ninjato were straighter
(although
> > not perfectly straight) because they were easier and less expensive to
make
> > than the high-quality katana/tachi and wakizashi. Ninja considered the
ninjato
> > a tool, not a piece of art.
>
> It's been interesting comparing this discussion with what I already knew
> of the katana and ninjato. I originally started this by commenting that I
> didn't think the ninjato should have the +1 stun mult since that made it a
> superior sword to the katana. Gold Rush has seemed to agree with this and
> while Rat disagreed, his comments, especially all the comparisons that
> made the ninjato sound pretty much like a katana with a slightly different
> look. So, I'm going to go ahead and adjust it to match a katana for games
> I run.
>
> TokyoMark
I agree that the ninjato doesn't deserve a +1 STUN multiplier. The typical
ninjato likely doesn't deserve a +1 OCV bonus either, unlike a high-quality
katana or wakizashi forged with exquisite skill.
I like to give the quality swords favored by knights and swashbuckler the +1
OCV. To balance the sword's advantage, I grant a +1 STUN multiplier to heavy
battle axes to better reflect the crushing power of such weapons in addition
to their cutting power. A +1 STUN mult I give to common hammers, maces, and
flails, while the heaviest of such weapons receives a +2 STUN mult. So a
knight wearing heavy jousting armor capable of absorbing lots of BODY can
still get his bell rung by a two-handed flail.
I have another suggestion for hand-and-a-half weapons. Provided the
character has the STR min to wield the weapon one-handed, if he chooses to
wield it with both hands, he gets a +1 Damage Class bonus when gripping it
two-handed--in a sense, the STR min for swinging it with two hands is reduced
by 5. It gives a further option to characters. A knight who forgoes using a
shield and swings his bastard sword with both hands gets to do a little extra
damage, trading a defensive benefit for an offensive one. A samurai trained
in two-sword fighting (WF: Off-Hand) who chooses to leave his wakizashi
sheathed to wield his katana two-handed does a bit more damage with his
primary blade, while losing the DCV bonus, the flexibility of Binding with
one weapon while striking with the other, and the possibility of surprise
attacks with the secondary weapon.
Len Carpenter
redlion@early.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 00:00:46 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Genre Books
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
GoldRushG wrote:
>
> << Wow, I like this new emphasis on Genre books...>>
>
> This is just the tip of the iceburg, folks. I've been promising for quite
> some time that we're going to be revitalizing the Hero System line. Very soon
> you're going to start seeing the fruits of all our labor. We aim to please,
> and I certainly hope that you like what's coming, because we have quite a bit
> planned for next year. ;)
>
> Mark @ GRG
Please remember, too, that the Hero System is best implemented in
Super-Heroics. Don't get me wrong, I'm not spouting off genre
preferences, just that the system was created as a Super-Hero RPG, and
in my experience, it is the bestsystem for building/playing the
Paranormal Genre. Many claim that other systems are more 'realistic' or
real-world friendly, which may be true, but I seldom play other genres,
so I rely on second-hand information there. But the Hero system's
mechanics are mostly ideal for higher-level play; greater diversity of
DEXes and SPDs, much broader ranges of power levels and diversities,
much broader range of SFX are all possible through the Supers game.
I'm not trying to downplay the System's playability at Secret Agent
or Fantasy levels, there's nothing wrong or 'broken' with those, it's
just that some of the mechanical constructs of the system are clearly
designed to show their colours at higher power levels. (That's it,
Spith, keep circling, maybe your point will actually come clear...)
My point being this; probably the primary audience for Hero System
games is the Comic-Book set, so make sure to maintain continued support
for that Genre, such as advuntures, supplements, etc.
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 01:38:28 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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GoldRushG wrote:
>
> One "simplified" way to handle Acrobatics in combat is to have the player
> make an Acrobatics Skill Roll for his PC, and use the Complementary Skill roll
> rules. I.e., for every 2 full points he makes the roll by, give him +1 Combat
> Level to be applied to OCV or DCV (player's choice) for that Action/Phase.
> What do you think?
>
> Mark @ GRG
I think that this would fit well in the 10-point acrobatics. The
3-point acrobatics from Hero 4th, I have always understood, should have
very limited combat effectiveness. That's why I liked the <3rd ed.
version(s); it was priced so that it made more sense to be more combat
useful.
I've always seen the seperation of Acro. and B-fall (from the earlier
all-inclusive AcroBatics) to represent the more combat-useful (B-fall)
aspect in one, and the more non-combat or SFX useful (Acro.) But I'm
probably wrong, eh?
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 01:50:39 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
> >> I.e., for every 2 full points he makes the roll by, give him +1
> >> Combat
> >> Level to be applied to OCV or DCV (player's choice) for that Action/Phase.
> >> What do you think?
> >
> >That has the potential to become highly unbalancing for a three point
> >skill.
> >
> >Any DEX 29-31 martial artist will have a 15- Acrobatics and since the
> >average of 3d6 is 11, routinely get +2 to his CV *every* Phase. For only
> >3 points!
>
> I think it could still work if a failure means that the character falls
> his Acrobatics Roll, cannot make an attack that Phase, is at half DCV, and
> must spend a half Phase the next Phase to get up.
I believe there should be consequences for failure, but that seems
like a lot. I would think the 1/2DCV and loss of the rest of the phase
would be sufficient, I wouldn't carry over to the next phase unless an
18 were rolled.
It also just occurred to me that the Acrobatics as CSL might be
dangerous; I had one character (Capt. Spith, actually!) who had a <21
Acrobatics roll to represent virtually guarenteed success even with most
modifiers. If he could use them for O/DCV, he would be able to get an
AVERAGE of +5 every phase.
At 30 DEX, using 3rd ed. Acrobatics, this skill cost him 22 points
for effectively 5 CSLs over and above any other benefit of
Acrobatics.....
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Avengers vs. X-Men
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 01:57:09 -0800
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On Friday, December 12, 1997 3:20 PM, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
<snip>
>Wasn't there a time where she absorbed Colossus, Nightcrawler, and
Kitty
>Pryde's powers to beat some big baddy?
And Wolverine's. And possibly the other X-Men as well, I only clearly
remember those four.
> Was that the Brood?
Nimrod. Ultimate, sentient, mentally flexible Super-Sentinel from the
future.
Filksinger
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:10:57 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Rick Holding wrote:
> And if you break the entangle with double the required body, you get a
> full phase. Quote, p68 BBB "If an ATTACK [my capitols] against an entangle
> does twice the remaining body of the entangle or more, then the attacker may
> take his full action (ie. it takes no time to break out of the entangle). If
> an attack against an entangle does the remaining body or more, then the
> attacker may take a half action." End quote.
>
> An attack was made against the entangle. If it breaks the entangle,
> you get either a half or full phase. Which can be used to make an attack.
> (Duck!!)
Exactly! The Entangle mechanics speak not to whether or not combat
actions take time or not, but rather to the mechanics of an Entangle. I
believe it is loosely based on the 'casual STR' rule; if you double the
BODY necessary to break an Entangle, it is considered analogous to only
having required 'casual' STR (or appropriate attack), thus allowing you
to retain your action. The 1/2 phase is just a gradient step so it's
not all-or-nothing.
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:32:29 -0800
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On Saturday, December 13, 1997 6:06 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
<snip>
>
> I have a few minor ideas besides what I'm putting into TUSV, such
as
>allowing +5 points for 2X DNPCs.
Definitely. My wife had a favorite character (Tetra, a bionic psionic-
long story:). My wife enjoys soap operas, and spent a lot of time
playing with possible backgrounds for that character. By the time we
were done writing her background up, one of her minor powers (very
minor body control, mostly just SFX) had allowed her to, without harm
to herself or slowing down her busy life more than utterly necessary,
allowed her to have _16_ children before she turned 30, mostly in
twins and quadruplets.
Even treating them as eight children with Duplication, Always On,
there was no way I was giving her _that_ for a Disadvantage.:) I
always felt a little bit sorry for that character.:)
Filksinger
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:32:29 -0800
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On Saturday, December 13, 1997 6:06 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
<snip>
>
> I have a few minor ideas besides what I'm putting into TUSV, such
as
>allowing +5 points for 2X DNPCs.
Definitely. My wife had a favorite character (Tetra, a bionic psionic-
long story:). My wife enjoys soap operas, and spent a lot of time
playing with possible backgrounds for that character. By the time we
were done writing her background up, one of her minor powers (very
minor body control, mostly just SFX) had allowed her to, without harm
to herself or slowing down her busy life more than utterly necessary,
allowed her to have _16_ children before she turned 30, mostly in
twins and quadruplets.
Even treating them as eight children with Duplication, Always On,
there was no way I was giving her _that_ for a Disadvantage.:) I
always felt a little bit sorry for that character.:)
Filksinger
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:34:10 -0800
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On Saturday, December 13, 1997 6:06 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
<snip>
>
> Opal has a fix for Hand Attack which most of the folks on the list
like.
> (I know Bill and I both do, but he and I tend to agree on things
anyway.)
> Hey Opal! Do you mind posting that again, for Mark? :-]
There is a decent fix, as well as some other good ideas, in the Hero
Games website Digital Hero archive.
Filksinger
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:34:10 -0800
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On Saturday, December 13, 1997 6:06 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
<snip>
>
> Opal has a fix for Hand Attack which most of the folks on the list
like.
> (I know Bill and I both do, but he and I tend to agree on things
anyway.)
> Hey Opal! Do you mind posting that again, for Mark? :-]
There is a decent fix, as well as some other good ideas, in the Hero
Games website Digital Hero archive.
Filksinger
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Greetings
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:36:49 -0800
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On Saturday, December 13, 1997 6:13 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>The other comment is "No more hard covers" In my group we have 5
copies of
>>the BBB all 5 have fallen apart.
>>
>>Juat a general question to the list, did that happen to everyone?
>
> It did to me. I had to ditch my hardcover and get a softcover
edition.
In about a week. And it was a friend's copy, not mine. I was GM and
didn't have any money, so....:(
Filksinger
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Greetings
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:36:49 -0800
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On Saturday, December 13, 1997 6:13 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>The other comment is "No more hard covers" In my group we have 5
copies of
>>the BBB all 5 have fallen apart.
>>
>>Juat a general question to the list, did that happen to everyone?
>
> It did to me. I had to ditch my hardcover and get a softcover
edition.
In about a week. And it was a friend's copy, not mine. I was GM and
didn't have any money, so....:(
Filksinger
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 06:53:55 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
> Often times what I let my players do is give me "comparisons" I can relate
> to. Things like "I do a double back-flip like Jackie Chan did in that one
> scene in Armor of God VII" and I say "Okay. Make your roll." ;)
No way man, Jackie vs Bennie in "Dragons Forever"!
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 06:57:05 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Art in GRG's Hero books
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On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
> Just so some folks know (in advance), the artists we're using include:
>
> Steve Bryant (of FASA fame)
Don't know him.
> Storn Cook (of Hero & Star Wars RPG fame)
His stuff is getting better. Watchers had some nice pieces.
> Albert Deschesne
Sorry, his stuff has never looked any good. I can draw better than him by
a long shot.
> Louis Frank (anyone read "Haymaker!"?)
I recognize the name, he also did stuff in Horror Hero and GAC. Nice
stuff.
> Bryce Nakagawa
> Greg Smith (of Hero fame)
Both very good.
> We're also looking for additional artists for future books, so if you know
> someone who'd be interested in illustrating for us have them drop us a line.
> We currently pay $100 per published page (i.e, $25 for each 1/4-page illo) for
> publishing rights.
>
> Mark @ GRG
>
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
From: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net (Mike Lehmann)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 04:01:25 -0800
Organization: Terminal BBS (403)327-9731
Subject: That's What I Want...
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-=> Quoting John and Ron Prins to Mike Lehmann <=-
Hiya John. Long time, no argue... :)
JaRP> Now, back to Absorption acting in a 'damage transformation' manner.
JaRP> Watch how easy this is: for every die of Absorption, you REMOVE one DC
JaRP> of damage from the attack. So if someone with 8D6 Absorption gets hit
JaRP> with a 10D6 attack, only 2 damage dice are rolled - everything else
JaRP> gets 'absorbed'. Then, you roll the dice of absorption (up to the
JaRP> maximum) to find out how many 'CPs' are absorbed. Clean, simple, and
JaRP> actually has a reason for existance - but don't mistake it for a cheap
JaRP> defense!! It's JUST as expensive as Energy Blast, on a dice for dice
JaRP> basis. Buying 12D6 Absorption is as expensive as buying 40 points of
JaRP> Resistant PD or ED, or 60 points of non-resistant. 40 rPD will stop a
JaRP> 4D6 RKA or 12D6 Energy Blast just as cold, though it has admittedly
JaRP> little effect on Knockback.
Personally, I think this is what Damage Reduction was intended for, but
different strokes...
I have also been wondering about the utility of Absorption lately, and I
had a few ideas for house rulings:
1) The 5 points/d6 stands, but it now converts from STUN damage to CPs;
2) The power works the same as in the book, but is now 3 points/d6
(like Dispel);
3) The power is bought like John suggested, but the dice are rolled to
conter the attack, STUN to STUN, BODY to BODY. The ability to
counter out dice, IMO, is pretty potent;
I'm seriously looking at #1, primarily because, as John stated, you
don't get enough out of regular Absorption to make it worthwhile... And
it wouldn't be much more severe than simply using a (IMO more abusive)
Aid in there... but to defend against the attack, you still need the
PD/ED/Armor/FF/etc.
I don't agree that it needs to be replaced, but I think it does need
some overhauling. Anyone else have any ideas regarding this?
As an aside, does anyone else here restrict the SFX of attacks that
someone's Damage Reduction/Absorption/etc. can function against (ie
fire, cold, punches, etc.) rather than just Energy/Physical damage?
GM: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net | Justice Krewe
Web: http://www.dfw.net/~aronhead/justice_krewe.html | The Illuminators
Short waiting list for new players | Enigma Watch
Lurkers welcome (Write to me!) | KnightWatch
... Just my luck - my psychotic episode is a rerun.
~~~ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
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From: WhiteLotus <WhiteLotus@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 07:18:18 EST
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Ninjato
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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In a message dated 97-12-15 03:26:22 EST, bastet@iquest.net writes:
<< > According to some sources, some ninja were descended from samurai
clans, and
> thuis already had access to weapons and such. As far as stealing, of course
> that was the case on occasion. Once the ninja became a stronger "political"
> force, however (ca. 14th-16th centuries, I believe), they had money from
their
> patrons to sustain them, not to mention their own artisans and craftsmen.
>
> And to get back to the original point, the ninjato were straighter
(although
> not perfectly straight) because they were easier and less expensive to make
> than the high-quality katana/tachi and wakizashi. Ninja considered the
ninjato
> a tool, not a piece of art.
It's been interesting comparing this discussion with what I already knew
of the katana and ninjato. I originally started this by commenting that I
didn't think the ninjato should have the +1 stun mult since that made it a
superior sword to the katana. Gold Rush has seemed to agree with this and
while Rat disagreed, his comments, especially all the comparisons that
made the ninjato sound pretty much like a katana with a slightly different
look. So, I'm going to go ahead and adjust it to match a katana for games
I run.
TokyoMark >>
Construction and even style of use is VERY different. While the Katana can cut
very much like a razor and can employ more intricate cut styles, most of the
styles I have come across (Yes, Ive gone to camps fun fun fun hands on
training) use a different style for the straight edged sword. It's more of a
slaming cut with lot's of force behind it.
E
From: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net (Mike Lehmann)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 04:18:31 -0800
Organization: Terminal BBS (403)327-9731
Subject: Extra Time (was Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long))
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-=> Quoting Jeremiah Driscoll to Mike Lehmann <=-
JD> Champions III (1984), pg. 48. "New Power Limitations," "Activation
JD> Time: This is a Limitation on all non-offensive Powers that normally
<snip>
Thanks for the rule copy, I was just about to ask about that exact
subject for my latest rendition of my house rules.
GM: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net | Justice Krewe
Web: http://www.dfw.net/~aronhead/justice_krewe.html | The Illuminators
Short waiting list for new players | Enigma Watch
Lurkers welcome (Write to me!) | KnightWatch
... Discoveries are made by not following instructions.
~~~ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 05:01:58 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: That's What I Want...
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At 10:31 PM 12/14/97 -0500, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>>> should apply across the board vs. all SFX. I want Absorption to be able to
>>> operate as a defense without resorting to an Armor kludge. I want
>>
>> Why can you not grasp the whole idea of the Hero rules? We've
>>explianed it a million times. Figure out the effect you want and then
>>take the combined powers that will simulate that. That's why absorpion
>>provides no defense. Sheesh!
>
>Because Absorption doesn't _block_ or 'redirect' damage like armor or force
>fields. It _transforms_ it from damaging 'power' to useful 'power'. It
>should never have a _chance_ to do damage!
>
>To show how _bad_ the 'armor up to absorption roll' idea is, let's consider
>knockback. Why, if 'effectively' I've just 'absorbed' an attack, should I
>take any knockback from it? That's right, I shouldn't. So I not only have to
>buy and Armor kludge, but a Knockback Resistance kludge as well!
Rather than try to argue this in terms of logic and real-world physics,
I suggest we examine the application of the power in comics and other
fiction and determine how it works there. Then we can determine whether we
need (a) kludges for other Powers such as Armor and Knockback Resistance,
(b) an Advantage to Absorption (which is what I currently use, at +1/2), or
(c) a Limitation to Absorption (when it *doesn't* provide a defense).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:31:42 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> - Extra Limbs should go back to having a cost per limb. My own
> structure is 5 points for two arms, with reduced costs for lesser utility
> (3 points for one arm, 3 for a pair of tentacles, 1 for a single tentacle
> or prehensile tail).
That was one of the silliest parts of the previous edition of Champions; I
certainly have no desire to see it return. Building the 100-armed giants
of Greek mythology should _not_ mandate a Power on the order of 1000
points.
> - Flash, as mentioned elsewhere, should be 5 points per die, with each
> BODY pip of Flash working for 1 segment. (It makes Flash Defense more
> balanced.)
Sounds okay.
> - Force Field and Force Wall should have Flash Defense, Mental Defense,
> and Power Defense methods built right in.
Force Wall, maybe. Force Field would be pointless. (Just buy them Costs
END.)
> - Hand-to-Hand Attack should *not* be omitted; this would leave us with
> the old kludge of "+X STR, Only for Damage." Use Opal's version instead.
The old kludge works fine IMO.
> - Instant Change should be scaled. (My scale is 5 pts = instant, 4 pts
> = half Phase, 3 pts = Phase, 2 pts = Turn, 1 pt = minute, normal = 5
> minutes, with all costs doubled for "any clothing.")
What's the point? Just use Extra Time to simulate this.
> - Life Support should have some of its elements able to be broken down
> even further, like 2 points for being immune to *either* heat *or* cold.
You already can do this - LS: Extreme Temperatures, only vs heat(-1/2).
Simple enough.
> Also, 1-2 points for retarded aging is a cool idea.
Same comment.
> - Stretching should be cheaper. I like 2 points per 1", though this may
> be an overreaction.
Sounds reasonable.
> - Transform should be more specifically described as well, especially in
> terms of what constitutes Cosmetic, Minor, and Major Transforms. (I tend
> to go with this: if it doesn't affect the character sheet, it's Cosmetic;
> if it shifts points around on the sheet or alters specific Powers but
> doesn't change the totals, it's Minor; if it changes point totals, it's
> Major.)
I can think of things which reduce costs that should be Minor (blinding,
for example). Also, the rule about "no point increases" desperately needs
to be reinstated.
> - Explosion should be +3/4 so it doesn't cost the same as AE: One Hex.
The increased precision given by AE: One Hex balances the somewhat-
increased damage of Explosion. Leave them the same.
> - Damage Shield should be clarified so that *any* significant contact,
> including the character with DS making an attack against the target, will
> cause damage.
Rather, they should reiterate the fact that the character with DS making
an attack against the target _doesn't_ cause damage. If you want to do
that, buy a normal attack version.
> - Reduced END should be half END for +1/4, 1 END for +1/2, 0 END for
> +3/4, and Persistent for +1.
I don't see the point of the "1 END" level.
I'd also codify the difference between Persistent and Uncontrolled. (My
view: Persistent makes a Constant Power Persistent (duh:)), Uncontrolled
makes a Constant Power Instant.)
> - Always On should have a variation where certain Limitations (END Cost,
> Focus, etc.) represent how the Power is turned off with an effort.
Good idea.
> - Extra Time should specify whether the time listed is including or in
> addition to the half-phase needed to launch an attack with a Power.
Better, they should include both the current version of Extra Time (a
delay before the Power can be activated, but during which you can do other
things) and the old version (actually increasing the type (or number) of
action(s) you need to expend to activate the Power).
> - Linked should be fixed and specific. My recommendation is to go with
> the basic, existing -1/2 bonus to make both Powers used in proportion,
> essentially being treated as a single Power for most purposes. A character
> could also have a "one-way" Link, letting one Power be used up to the level
> that the other is, for -1/4. Linked should still be applicable only to the
> smaller Power (but please specify that this means Active Points).
I agree, more or less. The current version of Linked, with a
proportionality restriction added on ("this Power can only be used when
Power X is used, at up to the same proportion of total power at which that
one is used") should be demoted to -1/4. Add another -1/4 Limitation which
states "this Power automatically goes off when Power X is used, at
proportionate power level at least equal to that at which Power X is
used". Combine these 2 and you have a -1/2 Limitation which works in the
same way that most people currenlty play Linked.
> - DNPC should allow +5 points for every 2X individuals on one Roll.
> Also allow DNCP Rolls of 5 or less (Rarely) for +0 points, and 17 or less
> (Constantly) for +20 points.
> - Hunted, similarly, should allow Hunted Rolls of 5 or less (Rarely) for
> -5 points, and 17 or less (Constantly) for +15 points.
Maybe, but I'd put a caveat stating that the 17- level shouldn't be used
unless the character in question is focal to the campaign. 14- is already
really, really high.
> - Secret Identity should become simply Secret, with scales similar to
> those used for Physical and Psychological Limitations.
Would certainly improve its cross-genre utility.
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:31:42 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> - Extra Limbs should go back to having a cost per limb. My own
> structure is 5 points for two arms, with reduced costs for lesser utility
> (3 points for one arm, 3 for a pair of tentacles, 1 for a single tentacle
> or prehensile tail).
That was one of the silliest parts of the previous edition of Champions; I
certainly have no desire to see it return. Building the 100-armed giants
of Greek mythology should _not_ mandate a Power on the order of 1000
points.
> - Flash, as mentioned elsewhere, should be 5 points per die, with each
> BODY pip of Flash working for 1 segment. (It makes Flash Defense more
> balanced.)
Sounds okay.
> - Force Field and Force Wall should have Flash Defense, Mental Defense,
> and Power Defense methods built right in.
Force Wall, maybe. Force Field would be pointless. (Just buy them Costs
END.)
> - Hand-to-Hand Attack should *not* be omitted; this would leave us with
> the old kludge of "+X STR, Only for Damage." Use Opal's version instead.
The old kludge works fine IMO.
> - Instant Change should be scaled. (My scale is 5 pts = instant, 4 pts
> = half Phase, 3 pts = Phase, 2 pts = Turn, 1 pt = minute, normal = 5
> minutes, with all costs doubled for "any clothing.")
What's the point? Just use Extra Time to simulate this.
> - Life Support should have some of its elements able to be broken down
> even further, like 2 points for being immune to *either* heat *or* cold.
You already can do this - LS: Extreme Temperatures, only vs heat(-1/2).
Simple enough.
> Also, 1-2 points for retarded aging is a cool idea.
Same comment.
> - Stretching should be cheaper. I like 2 points per 1", though this may
> be an overreaction.
Sounds reasonable.
> - Transform should be more specifically described as well, especially in
> terms of what constitutes Cosmetic, Minor, and Major Transforms. (I tend
> to go with this: if it doesn't affect the character sheet, it's Cosmetic;
> if it shifts points around on the sheet or alters specific Powers but
> doesn't change the totals, it's Minor; if it changes point totals, it's
> Major.)
I can think of things which reduce costs that should be Minor (blinding,
for example). Also, the rule about "no point increases" desperately needs
to be reinstated.
> - Explosion should be +3/4 so it doesn't cost the same as AE: One Hex.
The increased precision given by AE: One Hex balances the somewhat-
increased damage of Explosion. Leave them the same.
> - Damage Shield should be clarified so that *any* significant contact,
> including the character with DS making an attack against the target, will
> cause damage.
Rather, they should reiterate the fact that the character with DS making
an attack against the target _doesn't_ cause damage. If you want to do
that, buy a normal attack version.
> - Reduced END should be half END for +1/4, 1 END for +1/2, 0 END for
> +3/4, and Persistent for +1.
I don't see the point of the "1 END" level.
I'd also codify the difference between Persistent and Uncontrolled. (My
view: Persistent makes a Constant Power Persistent (duh:)), Uncontrolled
makes a Constant Power Instant.)
> - Always On should have a variation where certain Limitations (END Cost,
> Focus, etc.) represent how the Power is turned off with an effort.
Good idea.
> - Extra Time should specify whether the time listed is including or in
> addition to the half-phase needed to launch an attack with a Power.
Better, they should include both the current version of Extra Time (a
delay before the Power can be activated, but during which you can do other
things) and the old version (actually increasing the type (or number) of
action(s) you need to expend to activate the Power).
> - Linked should be fixed and specific. My recommendation is to go with
> the basic, existing -1/2 bonus to make both Powers used in proportion,
> essentially being treated as a single Power for most purposes. A character
> could also have a "one-way" Link, letting one Power be used up to the level
> that the other is, for -1/4. Linked should still be applicable only to the
> smaller Power (but please specify that this means Active Points).
I agree, more or less. The current version of Linked, with a
proportionality restriction added on ("this Power can only be used when
Power X is used, at up to the same proportion of total power at which that
one is used") should be demoted to -1/4. Add another -1/4 Limitation which
states "this Power automatically goes off when Power X is used, at
proportionate power level at least equal to that at which Power X is
used". Combine these 2 and you have a -1/2 Limitation which works in the
same way that most people currenlty play Linked.
> - DNPC should allow +5 points for every 2X individuals on one Roll.
> Also allow DNCP Rolls of 5 or less (Rarely) for +0 points, and 17 or less
> (Constantly) for +20 points.
> - Hunted, similarly, should allow Hunted Rolls of 5 or less (Rarely) for
> -5 points, and 17 or less (Constantly) for +15 points.
Maybe, but I'd put a caveat stating that the 17- level shouldn't be used
unless the character in question is focal to the campaign. 14- is already
really, really high.
> - Secret Identity should become simply Secret, with scales similar to
> those used for Physical and Psychological Limitations.
Would certainly improve its cross-genre utility.
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:33:30 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Captain Spith wrote:
> Exactly! The Entangle mechanics speak not to whether or not combat
> actions take time or not, but rather to the mechanics of an Entangle. I
> believe it is loosely based on the 'casual STR' rule;
More likely the other way around; the rules for escaping Entangles predate
Casual STR.
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:33:30 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Captain Spith wrote:
> Exactly! The Entangle mechanics speak not to whether or not combat
> actions take time or not, but rather to the mechanics of an Entangle. I
> believe it is loosely based on the 'casual STR' rule;
More likely the other way around; the rules for escaping Entangles predate
Casual STR.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 05:45:15 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
It took a little while, but I've finally come up with a handful of the
specific suggestions (most of them minor, and not all of them my own) that
I have for adjusting the Hero System:
- Interrogation should not *necessarily* be violent. In my campaign, an
attorney can use Interrogation to prompt a witness that she doesn't think
is telling the truth ("Need I remind you of the penalties for perjury?" and
such). Either that, or there should be a different Skill for this.
- Similarly seduction should not *necessarily* be sexual. A person can
be "seduced" by wealth, fame, and power. (Arguably, of course, this could
be represented with Bribery, though it seems to my mind closer to
Seduction, semantically speaking.)
- Darkness, Images, and other Powers whose base forms affect a single
sense but which can affect entire Sense Groups should be allowed to take +5
points to affect a Sense Group without affecting only a single Sense.
- Energy Blast should not be allowed to be STUN Only for no bonus.
Sure, the character doesn't have to worry about collateral damage that way,
but this is relatively minor compared to the utility that's lost without
the ability to do BODY damage (most specifically as affecting Entangles,
robots, vehicles, and other inanimate objects).
- Enhanced Senses should include a Touch Sense Group.
- Extra Limbs should go back to having a cost per limb. My own
structure is 5 points for two arms, with reduced costs for lesser utility
(3 points for one arm, 3 for a pair of tentacles, 1 for a single tentacle
or prehensile tail).
- Flash, as mentioned elsewhere, should be 5 points per die, with each
BODY pip of Flash working for 1 segment. (It makes Flash Defense more
balanced.)
- Force Field and Force Wall should have Flash Defense, Mental Defense,
and Power Defense methods built right in.
- Hand-to-Hand Attack should *not* be omitted; this would leave us with
the old kludge of "+X STR, Only for Damage." Use Opal's version instead.
- Instant Change should be scaled. (My scale is 5 pts = instant, 4 pts
= half Phase, 3 pts = Phase, 2 pts = Turn, 1 pt = minute, normal = 5
minutes, with all costs doubled for "any clothing.")
- Life Support should have some of its elements able to be broken down
even further, like 2 points for being immune to *either* heat *or* cold.
Also, 1-2 points for retarded aging is a cool idea.
- Shrinking should include a "proportional STR" Limitation, say -1/4.
- Stretching should be cheaper. I like 2 points per 1", though this may
be an overreaction.
- Swinging should be specifically described as movement per Phase, not
movement per swing.
- Transform should be more specifically described as well, especially in
terms of what constitutes Cosmetic, Minor, and Major Transforms. (I tend
to go with this: if it doesn't affect the character sheet, it's Cosmetic;
if it shifts points around on the sheet or alters specific Powers but
doesn't change the totals, it's Minor; if it changes point totals, it's
Major.)
- Armor Piercing should be purchasable so that it can do more than just
halve the target's defenses. However, I do see why this was stopped in 4th
ed. I'd recommend charging an extra +1/4 for each level higher that the
Armor Piercing can go (+1 1/4 to quarter defenses, +2 1/4 to reduce to
one-eighth, etc.).
- Explosion should be +3/4 so it doesn't cost the same as AE: One Hex.
(The old method of making AE: One Hex cost +1/4 wouldn't work, because then
it would hit the proverbial floor if it's Nonselective.) The Selective
Target and Nonselective Target options for AE should also be available.
- Damage Shield should be clarified so that *any* significant contact,
including the character with DS making an attack against the target, will
cause damage.
- Reduced END should be half END for +1/4, 1 END for +1/2, 0 END for
+3/4, and Persistent for +1.
- Activation Roll should go up to a required roll of 3 (which, at the
rate of 2X the Limitation bonus per -3 to the roll, would be a -6 Limitation).
- Always On should have a variation where certain Limitations (END Cost,
Focus, etc.) represent how the Power is turned off with an effort.
- Charges should be worth an extra +1/2 if the Power to which it's
applied normally doesn't cost END (or +1 if the Charges cost END).
- Extra Time should specify whether the time listed is including or in
addition to the half-phase needed to launch an attack with a Power.
- Linked should be fixed and specific. My recommendation is to go with
the basic, existing -1/2 bonus to make both Powers used in proportion,
essentially being treated as a single Power for most purposes. A character
could also have a "one-way" Link, letting one Power be used up to the level
that the other is, for -1/4. Linked should still be applicable only to the
smaller Power (but please specify that this means Active Points).
- Dependence should have a variation for Addiction. Also, the number of
dice should go on forever.
- DNPC should allow +5 points for every 2X individuals on one Roll.
Also allow DNCP Rolls of 5 or less (Rarely) for +0 points, and 17 or less
(Constantly) for +20 points.
- Hunted, similarly, should allow Hunted Rolls of 5 or less (Rarely) for
-5 points, and 17 or less (Constantly) for +15 points.
- Public Identity should be replaced with Social Limitation, of which
Public Identity can be one. Use scales similar to those used for Physical
and Psychological Limitations.
- Reputation should have modifiers for limited group -- say, -5 for a
small group, +0 for a large group, +5 for the public at large.
- Secret Identity should become simply Secret, with scales similar to
those used for Physical and Psychological Limitations.
- Susceptibility should have a variation for Allergy (using a similar
structure for the Addiction variation on Dependence). Also, the number
dice should go on forever.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
X-Originating-IP: [206.88.2.1]
From: "Todd Hanson" <badtodd@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Ha! I KNEW it! Magic is EVIL!!
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 07:46:20 CST
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Bob Greenwade says:
> Just as a point of fact: the actual "smug a-hole" who started it was
>posting a bunch of derogatory comments about Christians.
Umm. No.
the 'smug a-hole' who started this merely commented on the amusing fact
that the Christian Broadcast Network has transferred it's 'D&D is evil'
campaign to Magic. Seeing as how this list has often discussed the fact
that Magic has destroyed the role playing industry (as far as WE'RE
concerned anyway), I thought others would find it amusing as well.
There were no derogatory comments in my original post. The only
reference to 'Christians' was that it was on CBN (the Christian
Broadcast Network). Anything else was solely in the minds of certain
people who need to feel persecuted.
This subject was only remotely related to this list to begin with. We've
gone through the religious bullshit too many times already, and it
doesn't belong here. Please drop it.
Todd
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:48:10 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Brian Wong wrote:
> > > 1. Add an advantage called "Advantaged" which would be the exact
> > > counterpart to "Limited".
> >
> > Bad idea IMO. There's no need for it given an adequate set of Powers and
> > Advantages.
> But a list is never 'complete'. There's always something missing.
The list in 4th Edition is; can you think of any effect which can't be
generated with it? At any rate, the Advantage you propose would do nothing
to help matters; saying "add more to the list if you feel like it" hardly
makes the list more complete.
> Such an advatage would make it easier to customize powers, and take such
> a thing away from being a 'house rule advatage' to a 'tournament legal'
> concept.
I don't see the significance.
> > > 7. Steal a few of the advatages from GURPS, like Richocet.
> >
> > What would that be used for?
> Allows you to bounce an attack off of a surface.
You can do that by default in Hero, remember? Assuming special effects
allow it, of course; I hardly think it's significant enough to merit an
actual Modifier.
> GURPS has about twice as many advantages for powers as Champions does.
Sounds cumbersome.
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:48:10 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Brian Wong wrote:
> > > 1. Add an advantage called "Advantaged" which would be the exact
> > > counterpart to "Limited".
> >
> > Bad idea IMO. There's no need for it given an adequate set of Powers and
> > Advantages.
> But a list is never 'complete'. There's always something missing.
The list in 4th Edition is; can you think of any effect which can't be
generated with it? At any rate, the Advantage you propose would do nothing
to help matters; saying "add more to the list if you feel like it" hardly
makes the list more complete.
> Such an advatage would make it easier to customize powers, and take such
> a thing away from being a 'house rule advatage' to a 'tournament legal'
> concept.
I don't see the significance.
> > > 7. Steal a few of the advatages from GURPS, like Richocet.
> >
> > What would that be used for?
> Allows you to bounce an attack off of a surface.
You can do that by default in Hero, remember? Assuming special effects
allow it, of course; I hardly think it's significant enough to merit an
actual Modifier.
> GURPS has about twice as many advantages for powers as Champions does.
Sounds cumbersome.
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:00:29 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Sparx wrote:
> Yeah, my book fell apart and a nice letter to ICE got me a new BBB. I found
> this very professional and appreciated it greatly.
Geez, good thing for ICE this didn't get out when they were publishing the
BBB. Can you imagine the number of books they'd have to replace if
everbody wanted this service?
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:00:29 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Sparx wrote:
> Yeah, my book fell apart and a nice letter to ICE got me a new BBB. I found
> this very professional and appreciated it greatly.
Geez, good thing for ICE this didn't get out when they were publishing the
BBB. Can you imagine the number of books they'd have to replace if
everbody wanted this service?
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:07:01 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 05:45 AM 12/15/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> It took a little while, but I've finally come up with a handful of the
>specific suggestions (most of them minor, and not all of them my own) that
>I have for adjusting the Hero System:
>
> - Interrogation should not *necessarily* be violent. In my campaign, an
>attorney can use Interrogation to prompt a witness that she doesn't think
>is telling the truth ("Need I remind you of the penalties for perjury?" and
>such). Either that, or there should be a different Skill for this.
There already is: Persuasion. I think Persuasion can be either pleasant or
unpleasant as written.
As I read it, Interrogation is the skill of MAKING someone answer a question
against their will as opposed to merely convincing them to answer via either
rational or emotional appeals -- theoretically useless to policemen,
lawyers, etc., which is not to say some of them don't learn it anyways).
> - Similarly seduction should not *necessarily* be sexual. A person can
>be "seduced" by wealth, fame, and power. (Arguably, of course, this could
>be represented with Bribery, though it seems to my mind closer to
>Seduction, semantically speaking.)
I think Seduction might be swapped out in favor of a "Charm" skill to
represent the general purpose "make someone like me". I don't mind expanding
the focus of the skill, but the name becomes misleading after a while.
> - Stretching should be cheaper. I like 2 points per 1", though this may
>be an overreaction.
No, that's what I use in my own games. I think it's a more than fair price.
> - Swinging should be specifically described as movement per Phase, not
>movement per swing.
Hear, hear!
> - Transform should be more specifically described as well, especially in
>terms of what constitutes Cosmetic, Minor, and Major Transforms. (I tend
>to go with this: if it doesn't affect the character sheet, it's Cosmetic;
>if it shifts points around on the sheet or alters specific Powers but
>doesn't change the totals, it's Minor; if it changes point totals, it's
>Major.)
For my own part, if it changes totals by up to 15 points (the value of +/-3
CV), it's Minor. Otherwise ...
> - Extra Time should specify whether the time listed is including or in
>addition to the half-phase needed to launch an attack with a Power.
And should probably be the latter. After all, if I make a power "Extra
Time: Full Phase", then include the attack time, I'm really only spending a
-half- Phase to activate it.
Add "Extra Time: 1/2 Phase" (aka "Full Phase Action") for -1/4.
> - Dependence should have a variation for Addiction. Also, the number of
>dice should go on forever.
Actually, it's not that hard to make Dependences work for Addictions. Buy
it as normal, and treat the "attack" of each +1d6 as +2d6 Mind Control: Do
The Drug.
> - Public Identity should be replaced with Social Limitation, of which
>Public Identity can be one. Use scales similar to those used for Physical
>and Psychological Limitations.
> - Reputation should have modifiers for limited group -- say, -5 for a
>small group, +0 for a large group, +5 for the public at large.
It might also include a halving element (such as Watched or Enraged) if the
Reputation is primarily positive. Maybe.
> - Secret Identity should become simply Secret, with scales similar to
>those used for Physical and Psychological Limitations.
Yes! Yes!
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good |
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) |
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X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:07:01 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 05:45 AM 12/15/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> It took a little while, but I've finally come up with a handful of the
>specific suggestions (most of them minor, and not all of them my own) that
>I have for adjusting the Hero System:
>
> - Interrogation should not *necessarily* be violent. In my campaign, an
>attorney can use Interrogation to prompt a witness that she doesn't think
>is telling the truth ("Need I remind you of the penalties for perjury?" and
>such). Either that, or there should be a different Skill for this.
There already is: Persuasion. I think Persuasion can be either pleasant or
unpleasant as written.
As I read it, Interrogation is the skill of MAKING someone answer a question
against their will as opposed to merely convincing them to answer via either
rational or emotional appeals -- theoretically useless to policemen,
lawyers, etc., which is not to say some of them don't learn it anyways).
> - Similarly seduction should not *necessarily* be sexual. A person can
>be "seduced" by wealth, fame, and power. (Arguably, of course, this could
>be represented with Bribery, though it seems to my mind closer to
>Seduction, semantically speaking.)
I think Seduction might be swapped out in favor of a "Charm" skill to
represent the general purpose "make someone like me". I don't mind expanding
the focus of the skill, but the name becomes misleading after a while.
> - Stretching should be cheaper. I like 2 points per 1", though this may
>be an overreaction.
No, that's what I use in my own games. I think it's a more than fair price.
> - Swinging should be specifically described as movement per Phase, not
>movement per swing.
Hear, hear!
> - Transform should be more specifically described as well, especially in
>terms of what constitutes Cosmetic, Minor, and Major Transforms. (I tend
>to go with this: if it doesn't affect the character sheet, it's Cosmetic;
>if it shifts points around on the sheet or alters specific Powers but
>doesn't change the totals, it's Minor; if it changes point totals, it's
>Major.)
For my own part, if it changes totals by up to 15 points (the value of +/-3
CV), it's Minor. Otherwise ...
> - Extra Time should specify whether the time listed is including or in
>addition to the half-phase needed to launch an attack with a Power.
And should probably be the latter. After all, if I make a power "Extra
Time: Full Phase", then include the attack time, I'm really only spending a
-half- Phase to activate it.
Add "Extra Time: 1/2 Phase" (aka "Full Phase Action") for -1/4.
> - Dependence should have a variation for Addiction. Also, the number of
>dice should go on forever.
Actually, it's not that hard to make Dependences work for Addictions. Buy
it as normal, and treat the "attack" of each +1d6 as +2d6 Mind Control: Do
The Drug.
> - Public Identity should be replaced with Social Limitation, of which
>Public Identity can be one. Use scales similar to those used for Physical
>and Psychological Limitations.
> - Reputation should have modifiers for limited group -- say, -5 for a
>small group, +0 for a large group, +5 for the public at large.
It might also include a halving element (such as Watched or Enraged) if the
Reputation is primarily positive. Maybe.
> - Secret Identity should become simply Secret, with scales similar to
>those used for Physical and Psychological Limitations.
Yes! Yes!
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good |
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 06:09:50 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 12:02 AM 12/15/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>> >> One "simplified" way to handle Acrobatics in combat is to have the
player
>> >> make an Acrobatics Skill Roll for his PC, and use the Complementary
>> Skill roll
>> >> rules. I.e., for every 2 full points he makes the roll by, give him +1
>> Combat
>> >> Level to be applied to OCV or DCV (player's choice) for that
Action/Phase.
>> >> What do you think?
>> >
>> >That has the potential to become highly unbalancing for a three point
>> >skill.
>> >
>> >Any DEX 29-31 martial artist will have a 15- Acrobatics and since the
>> >average of 3d6 is 11, routinely get +2 to his CV *every* Phase. For only
>> >3 points!
>>
>> I think it could still work if a failure means that the character falls
>> his Acrobatics Roll, cannot make an attack that Phase, is at half DCV, and
>> must spend a half Phase the next Phase to get up.
>
>Then also consider this, 14- is close to (or above) 75%, while 15- is
>hitting 90% (I think). In most 250 point martial artists have DEX of 24+,
>usually 26+, meaning that they will be getting a nice bennie at *low*
>risk. If you want that, buy some CSLs with a limitations "must make
>Acrobatics roll".
While I do think that this is generally be better solution, consider
that the penalty for failure can be quite high. Even Seeker would probably
be in deep doo-doo against Giganto under the circumstances I described
above.
---
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Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 07:11:23 -0700
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
Subject: Re: Storm, Iron Man and the wimpy X-Men
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Filksinger wrote:
>
> On Friday, December 12, 1997 9:28 AM, GoldRushG wrote:
>
> > Besides, everyone knows Spider-Man could whomp every one of those
> losers,
> >anyway! <LOL>
>
> YES.
>
> Back in the Secret Wars, Spiderman overheard the X-Men's plan to join
> Magneto. He tried to turn them in, and would have succeeded with ease
> if it hadn't been for Prof. X making him forget. IIRC, Wolverine
> refereed to it as "kicking our butts!"
>
> Filksinger
Then there is the one fight I remember that gave me new respect for
spidey. I don't recall the set up, but he was being chased by Firelord
(the Herald of Galactus). He tried to get help from every major
superteam in NYC, then when none of them were in, finally turned on
Firelord and started to fight him. When all of the teams that he had
gone to for help showed up, there was the unconcious form of Firelord
with Spidey over him, gasping for breath. The reaction shots of the
Avengers and FF at Spiderman having taken out a herald of Galactus is
pricelss.
--
-Mhoram
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your
two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:11:30 -0500 (EST)
From: dq831@freenet.carleton.ca (Jamie Rosen)
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Reply-To: dq831@freenet.carleton.ca
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>
><< Major Mistake. The powers rules have many applications outside of
>Super Powers. I think the Hero system rulebook should be the same size as
>it was in 4th edition.>>
>
> My bad. I think the plan *was* (or, rather, *is*) to have all the character
>creation rules (including the "powers") in the Hero System Rules book, and
>treat the Champions book as the campaign book (perhaps with a few extra
>goodies, and certainly plenty of clear examples!).
One thing I'd like to see (and th is goes for pretty much every campaign
book for every game) is a section on PbeMing. Most of these books have a
section on 'how to roleplay in genre x, or world x', and I think that
including a section on playing over the 'net would be emminently useful.
--
Jamie Rosen - author, bad seed, and layabout on rec.arts.comics.creative
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mistake is just experience in the present tense.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 06:12:48 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 01:50 AM 12/15/97 -0800, Captain Spith wrote:
>> I think it could still work if a failure means that the character falls
>> his Acrobatics Roll, cannot make an attack that Phase, is at half DCV, and
>> must spend a half Phase the next Phase to get up.
>
> I believe there should be consequences for failure, but that seems
>like a lot. I would think the 1/2DCV and loss of the rest of the phase
>would be sufficient, I wouldn't carry over to the next phase unless an
>18 were rolled.
I was just figuring that if he falls, he falls, and has to get up. (Of
course, if he *wants* to stay down, he can. It might even be advisable,
like if the brick behind his opponent is winding up a haymaker...)
---
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Subject: Re: My BBB's falling apart!
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 97 09:16:34 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On 12/14/97 6:03 PM, GoldRushG (GoldRushG@aol.com) Said:
>Are there still a lot of folks left who don't have
>replacements for their old Champs hardcover?
I took the first 4thEd Hardcaver, after it fell apart & put it in a three
ring binder. Then I bought the HSR in softcover. Then I bought the 4thED
softcover. The I bought Champions Deluxe in Hardcover.
I'm a junkie.
I need a fix.
When's that San Angelo thing coming out again...
| David A. Fair
Think Different | SDS International
| dfair@sdslink.com
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 06:26:36 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Gold Rush Games Mailing List???
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 03:28 AM 12/15/97 +0000, Brian Wong wrote:
> Hey, that's better than I got it. I go to the store here in San
>Francisco (Gamescape on Divisadero) and ask for Ultimate Martial Artist on
>disk and get:
>
> "doesn't exist, Hero games went out of business."
>
[Sensible Action #1 clipped]
>
> "doesn't exist, Hero games went out of business."
>
[Sensible Action #2 clipped]
>
> "doesn't exist, Hero games went out of business."
>
[Theoretical Sensible Action clipped]
>
> "doesn't exist, Hero games went out of business."
Since you live in the same general area, maybe you should email Bruce
Harlick and have him go down there and explain things to the people there.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 06:28:56 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings II: Revenge of Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 12:07 AM 12/15/97 EST, Pat10355 wrote:
>Hello,
>
>I've just joined the mailing list and I wanted to quickly introduce myself.
>I'm Patrick Sweeney, a Champions player since the very first edition and the
>author of the forthcoming San Angelo: City of Heroes campaign book from Gold
>Rush Games.
>
>I can tell this is an extremely active list -- I've already gotten several
>dozen e-mails and I only joined a couple of days ago.
>
>No big queries or commentary yet ... I expect you'll have some for me once
the
>book comes out in January, and I'm looking forward to your feedback. I just
>wanted to say hi. Oh, and to apologize for accidentally sending my subscribe
>message to the mailing list instead of the owner. <doh!>
Welcome, Patrick!
Hey fellow Listers, what do you think of this? We've been languishing
for years with little or no official presence on the list, and now we have
a publisher (Mark), someone with a book in press (Patrick) and one with a
book in process (me). Is this list getting better, or what? :-]
---
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 06:34:33 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 06:18 PM 12/15/97 -0800, Rick Holding wrote:
>Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>> But you *can't* apply the Limitation to the larger Power; that is quite
>> explicitly stated.
>
> I would suggest that that particlur rule was placed to stop people
>saying "I have a 3d6 flash. I will link my 12d6 energy blast to it. -1/2
on
>the energy blast, thanks"
Precisely. So how would you work such a construct where the Flash
always went off with the EB?
---
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Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:35:20 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: That's What I Want...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, John and Ron Prins wrote:
> Because Absorption doesn't _block_ or 'redirect' damage like armor or force
> fields. It _transforms_ it from damaging 'power' to useful 'power'. It
> should never have a _chance_ to do damage!
Whether your armour/force field "blocks damage", "redirects damage",
"absorbs damage", "transforms damage", "prevents the attack from ever
having a chance to do damage", or whatever else is strictly a matter of
SFX. The result is the same: your character suffers less damage.
> To show how _bad_ the 'armor up to absorption roll' idea is, let's consider
> knockback. Why, if 'effectively' I've just 'absorbed' an attack, should I
> take any knockback from it? That's right, I shouldn't. So I not only have to
> buy and Armor kludge, but a Knockback Resistance kludge as well!
There's no kludge involved. If you want to gain character points from
attacks, and take less damage from attacks, and take less knockback from
attacks, then you need to buy Absorption, and a defense, and KB
Resistance. That just stands to reason.
> PLUS, look at the costs involved. Absorption = 5 points/die. Aid = 5 points
> per die. I'm paying (currently) AS MUCH as I am for Aid, while getting:
Okay, but Aid is completely broken at 5/die, so saying that Absorption is
weaker than it doesn't carry much weight. Try comparing it to 10/die Aid.
> Sorry, but IMO, the '0 END' componant of Absorption DOES NOT balance out the
> two other conditions. Why does Absorption EXIST AT ALL??? I could just as
> easily do this:
>
> XD6 Aid, 0 END (+1/2), Persistant (+1/2), Only when hit by a power fitting
> 'Y' SFX (-1/2), Dice of Aid limited by DC of attack (-1/2).
>
> It's virtually the SAME construct, with the same conditions. Please, if you
> can, _justify_ to me the existance of Absorption at all, given that it
> operates identically to this Aid construct.
Except that Absorption isn't limited to a certain special effect (though
that's a common Limitation on Absorption, of course) and putting
"Persistent" on an Instant Power is nonsense.
> Now, back to Absorption acting in a 'damage transformation' manner. Watch
> how easy this is: for every die of Absorption, you REMOVE one DC of damage
> from the attack. So if someone with 8D6 Absorption gets hit with a 10D6
> attack, only 2 damage dice are rolled - everything else gets 'absorbed'.
> Then, you roll the dice of absorption (up to the maximum) to find out how
> many 'CPs' are absorbed.
Good grief. If you allowed this monstrosity into a game, what
justification would _Armour_ have to exist?
> Clean, simple, and actually has a reason for existance - but don't mistake
> it for a cheap defense!! It's JUST as expensive as Energy Blast, on a dice
> for dice basis. Buying 12D6 Absorption is as expensive as buying 40 points
> of Resistant PD or ED, or 60 points of non-resistant. 40 rPD will stop a 4D6
> RKA or 12D6 Energy Blast just as cold, though it has admittedly little
> effect on Knockback.
A) An _average_ roll on a 12D6 Energy Blast does 42 STUN, and it can do a
lot more, so this construction hardly gives comparable defense to Armour -
it gives superior defense.
B) If it _did_ give equal defense, that would in and of itself prove that
the construction is broken beyond belief. For 60 points, I can either stop
attacks up to a certain level, or stop attacks up to that level _and_ get
character points from them _and_ negate the knock-back too... gee, that's
a tough choice.
> An additional note on the 'armor up to absorption roll' - it isn't enough.
> If I've got 12D6 Absorption, I doubt I'll ever see an absorption roll over
> 12.
Huh? Did you mean to write 2D6? Or are you under the mistaken impression
that you only count the BODY rolled on the absorption dice? (Even if so,
claiming that you'll never see a roll higher than 12 is pretty ludicrous.)
> Considering that a _lot_ of the absorbtion going on in comic books is
> 'total', an extra 12 rPD just doesn't cut it. I'd need a HUGE Absorption to
> get the additional defenses 'required' to simulate the effect.
<shrug> So buy it with the Limitation "only up to thrice the dice rolled",
or with no Limitation at all if you like; you can still say the special
effect of your defense is that you're "absorbing" the attack.
> Can you not understand the meaning of the word Absorb?
Can you not understand that the name of the Power tells you pretty much
_nothing_ about what the Power is used for? This is pretty basic to
understanding the Hero System.
> And - if you don't want your Absorb to negate damage, why, you could buy
> a limitation to that effect, right in the power! <gasp!> Instead of
> buying TWO powers (three, if you include Knockback) to 'kludge' a true
> Absorptive effect, why not have ONE power that you could just limit for
> discrete effects?
Because "one Power, one effect" is a pretty solid rule of thumb for Power
design? It's a hell of a lot easier and more elegant to be able to build
the effect you want from simple, relatively atomic Powers than it is to
have to smash Powers apart and recombine them.
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:35:20 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: That's What I Want...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, John and Ron Prins wrote:
> Because Absorption doesn't _block_ or 'redirect' damage like armor or force
> fields. It _transforms_ it from damaging 'power' to useful 'power'. It
> should never have a _chance_ to do damage!
Whether your armour/force field "blocks damage", "redirects damage",
"absorbs damage", "transforms damage", "prevents the attack from ever
having a chance to do damage", or whatever else is strictly a matter of
SFX. The result is the same: your character suffers less damage.
> To show how _bad_ the 'armor up to absorption roll' idea is, let's consider
> knockback. Why, if 'effectively' I've just 'absorbed' an attack, should I
> take any knockback from it? That's right, I shouldn't. So I not only have to
> buy and Armor kludge, but a Knockback Resistance kludge as well!
There's no kludge involved. If you want to gain character points from
attacks, and take less damage from attacks, and take less knockback from
attacks, then you need to buy Absorption, and a defense, and KB
Resistance. That just stands to reason.
> PLUS, look at the costs involved. Absorption = 5 points/die. Aid = 5 points
> per die. I'm paying (currently) AS MUCH as I am for Aid, while getting:
Okay, but Aid is completely broken at 5/die, so saying that Absorption is
weaker than it doesn't carry much weight. Try comparing it to 10/die Aid.
> Sorry, but IMO, the '0 END' componant of Absorption DOES NOT balance out the
> two other conditions. Why does Absorption EXIST AT ALL??? I could just as
> easily do this:
>
> XD6 Aid, 0 END (+1/2), Persistant (+1/2), Only when hit by a power fitting
> 'Y' SFX (-1/2), Dice of Aid limited by DC of attack (-1/2).
>
> It's virtually the SAME construct, with the same conditions. Please, if you
> can, _justify_ to me the existance of Absorption at all, given that it
> operates identically to this Aid construct.
Except that Absorption isn't limited to a certain special effect (though
that's a common Limitation on Absorption, of course) and putting
"Persistent" on an Instant Power is nonsense.
> Now, back to Absorption acting in a 'damage transformation' manner. Watch
> how easy this is: for every die of Absorption, you REMOVE one DC of damage
> from the attack. So if someone with 8D6 Absorption gets hit with a 10D6
> attack, only 2 damage dice are rolled - everything else gets 'absorbed'.
> Then, you roll the dice of absorption (up to the maximum) to find out how
> many 'CPs' are absorbed.
Good grief. If you allowed this monstrosity into a game, what
justification would _Armour_ have to exist?
> Clean, simple, and actually has a reason for existance - but don't mistake
> it for a cheap defense!! It's JUST as expensive as Energy Blast, on a dice
> for dice basis. Buying 12D6 Absorption is as expensive as buying 40 points
> of Resistant PD or ED, or 60 points of non-resistant. 40 rPD will stop a 4D6
> RKA or 12D6 Energy Blast just as cold, though it has admittedly little
> effect on Knockback.
A) An _average_ roll on a 12D6 Energy Blast does 42 STUN, and it can do a
lot more, so this construction hardly gives comparable defense to Armour -
it gives superior defense.
B) If it _did_ give equal defense, that would in and of itself prove that
the construction is broken beyond belief. For 60 points, I can either stop
attacks up to a certain level, or stop attacks up to that level _and_ get
character points from them _and_ negate the knock-back too... gee, that's
a tough choice.
> An additional note on the 'armor up to absorption roll' - it isn't enough.
> If I've got 12D6 Absorption, I doubt I'll ever see an absorption roll over
> 12.
Huh? Did you mean to write 2D6? Or are you under the mistaken impression
that you only count the BODY rolled on the absorption dice? (Even if so,
claiming that you'll never see a roll higher than 12 is pretty ludicrous.)
> Considering that a _lot_ of the absorbtion going on in comic books is
> 'total', an extra 12 rPD just doesn't cut it. I'd need a HUGE Absorption to
> get the additional defenses 'required' to simulate the effect.
<shrug> So buy it with the Limitation "only up to thrice the dice rolled",
or with no Limitation at all if you like; you can still say the special
effect of your defense is that you're "absorbing" the attack.
> Can you not understand the meaning of the word Absorb?
Can you not understand that the name of the Power tells you pretty much
_nothing_ about what the Power is used for? This is pretty basic to
understanding the Hero System.
> And - if you don't want your Absorb to negate damage, why, you could buy
> a limitation to that effect, right in the power! <gasp!> Instead of
> buying TWO powers (three, if you include Knockback) to 'kludge' a true
> Absorptive effect, why not have ONE power that you could just limit for
> discrete effects?
Because "one Power, one effect" is a pretty solid rule of thumb for Power
design? It's a hell of a lot easier and more elegant to be able to build
the effect you want from simple, relatively atomic Powers than it is to
have to smash Powers apart and recombine them.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 06:42:16 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Slipperiness
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 09:54 PM 12/14/97 +0000, Brian Wong wrote:
>>
>> At 03:49 PM 12/13/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>> >I'm all for the 5th ed. In addition to the various suggestions people have
>> >already made, I hope it includes either a "slipperiness" power or a
>> >revised Change Environment that can make an icy surface with combat
>> >effects. (My pet peeve.)
>>
>> While assembling TUSV, I found a need to define some Power to do this.
>> I settled on a Minor Transform to change regular ground into slippery
>> ground. The SFX could be ice, an oil slick, or something else. (I even
>> have a sample vehicle with an icy slick device.)
>
> Transform to do it reads like a 'hack' though. Since transform
>requires overcoming the targets Body.
> How much body does thin air have? Or a sidewalk?
Thin air has no BODY (or the BODY of what you're trying to transform it
into), but then again, who ever heard of "slippery air"?
As for sidewalk, HSR page 177 lists "dirt (per hex)" as having 16 BODY,
and I'd do the same for paved ground (with higher DEF, just the same BODY).
>It really does need a new power. A sort of 'reverse entangle'.
I disagree here, since I've found a way to do it that works (at least,
IMO).
---
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Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:46:18 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: That's What I Want...
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On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, John and Ron Prins wrote:
> > I would suggest (for the time being) that you buy the 20 Pt. "Bunch of
> >Forms" power, and then give it a Limitation: Only 2 Forms (-1/2). Does that
> >work for you?
This is definitely the most elegant approach IMO.
> No, it wouldn't. I'm very tempted to say that Shapeshifting is 'too cheap'.
> I'd like the list to discuss this idea.
Considering that it literally does nothing in game-mechanical terms, I
don't think it's too cheap. A pumped-up version of Disguise is nice, but
not all that awesome (and for some uses, you even still need Disguise).
> Shapeshift: 20 points for a single form. +2 points per additional form, +10
> points for a limited 'group', +10 points for a broad 'group', +10 points for
> any shape.
I'd leave single form at 10 pts, but the modifiers look reasonable;
increased granularity is generally a good thing.
> This is, of course, a more expensive construct (not necessarily bad, as
> Shapeshifting is darn useful and fairly rare, comic-wise), but it's got
> lots greater resolution - I'd prefer added resolution than added
> Limitations.
>
> For example, I'd like to buy the DEF and Dice of Entangles separately
Good idea.
> I want Absorption to be able to operate as a defense without resorting to
> an Armor kludge.
Note that this is the exact opposite of your earlier requests; you now
want less resolution and more Limitations.
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:46:18 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: That's What I Want...
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On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, John and Ron Prins wrote:
> > I would suggest (for the time being) that you buy the 20 Pt. "Bunch of
> >Forms" power, and then give it a Limitation: Only 2 Forms (-1/2). Does that
> >work for you?
This is definitely the most elegant approach IMO.
> No, it wouldn't. I'm very tempted to say that Shapeshifting is 'too cheap'.
> I'd like the list to discuss this idea.
Considering that it literally does nothing in game-mechanical terms, I
don't think it's too cheap. A pumped-up version of Disguise is nice, but
not all that awesome (and for some uses, you even still need Disguise).
> Shapeshift: 20 points for a single form. +2 points per additional form, +10
> points for a limited 'group', +10 points for a broad 'group', +10 points for
> any shape.
I'd leave single form at 10 pts, but the modifiers look reasonable;
increased granularity is generally a good thing.
> This is, of course, a more expensive construct (not necessarily bad, as
> Shapeshifting is darn useful and fairly rare, comic-wise), but it's got
> lots greater resolution - I'd prefer added resolution than added
> Limitations.
>
> For example, I'd like to buy the DEF and Dice of Entangles separately
Good idea.
> I want Absorption to be able to operate as a defense without resorting to
> an Armor kludge.
Note that this is the exact opposite of your earlier requests; you now
want less resolution and more Limitations.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 06:49:16 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Slipperiness
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At 06:31 PM 12/15/97 -0800, Rick Holding wrote:
>I think one thing you may have missed would be some sort of
>reduction in movement and accelleration. Little or nor traction would
>mean the tires/feet/etc woudl be moving like hell but not getting very
>far.
This is what I currently have down for the effect of a Slick. Tell me
what you think.
If the Transform is successful, then the ground becomes slippery.
Characters and vehicles using Ground Movement must make a DEX Roll at -3
(or a Combat Vehicle Operations or similar Roll at no penalty) when
entering the hex or lose control (see Chapter Three for more details on
this). Even if this Roll is successful, a second Roll at -2 (in addition
to any other Modifiers) must be made if the character or vehicle attempts
to accelerate, decelerate, or turn while in the affected area.
At the GM's option, every BODY pip above the 16 needed to successfully
enact the Transform, up to the maximum that can be rolled on the dice, adds
another -1 to the DEX or Combat Vehicle Operations Rolls.
Point of Clarification: Combat Vehicle Operations means either Combat
Driving, Combat Piloting, or an equivalent Skill (like Combat Robot
Operations).
I'm thinking of adding a provision where targets using feet for
transportation would also have to make a DEX or Combat Vehicle Operations
Roll every Phase.
---
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Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 06:52:38 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV
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At 02:02 AM 12/15/97 +0000, Brian Wong wrote:
>> take what I post as gospel even if you'd take TUSV itself as such.
>
> Am I the only one who keeps wanting to read that as
>"The Ultimate Super Villian"?
> Which in itself may make for a justifiable book.
I think Chris Avellone's working on something like that. The last I
heard, it was being called "Essential Villainy."
I don't know the status on it, though; it may have been abandoned, or
put on a long-term status (like Patrick Bradley's Pirate Hero).
---
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Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:55:31 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Avengers vs. X-Men
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On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
> >It isn't. Given that Rogue can be overwhelmed by a mental midget like
> >Juggernaut and given that Thor, when his personality was absorbed by the
> >Destroyer and even the freaking Demogorge, was able to assert control, I
> >have difficulty believing she could successfully handle Thor.
> >
> Well, I was under the delusion (I suppose) that it wouldn't be Thor's
> ability to "assert control," it would simply be the personality clash. It
> may still depend upon strength of personality, but still... she's not
> absorbing their souls. (AFAIK)
I'd always sort of assumed that the strength of the personality absorbed
was an important factor in determining whether she was able to maintain
control, but I'll admit I haven't seen anything canonically stating this.
> >> Wasn't there a time where she absorbed Colossus, Nightcrawler, and Kitty
> >> Pryde's powers to beat some big baddy? Was that the Brood?
> >
> >That's why I explicitly referred to her trying to absorb an _adversary_.
> >
> Again, I didn't think this made a difference.
Well, when absorbing a teamate the risk of having her personality
supplanted isn't really an issue... they're going to have the same
immediate goals she has, most likely.
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:55:31 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Avengers vs. X-Men
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On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
> >It isn't. Given that Rogue can be overwhelmed by a mental midget like
> >Juggernaut and given that Thor, when his personality was absorbed by the
> >Destroyer and even the freaking Demogorge, was able to assert control, I
> >have difficulty believing she could successfully handle Thor.
> >
> Well, I was under the delusion (I suppose) that it wouldn't be Thor's
> ability to "assert control," it would simply be the personality clash. It
> may still depend upon strength of personality, but still... she's not
> absorbing their souls. (AFAIK)
I'd always sort of assumed that the strength of the personality absorbed
was an important factor in determining whether she was able to maintain
control, but I'll admit I haven't seen anything canonically stating this.
> >> Wasn't there a time where she absorbed Colossus, Nightcrawler, and Kitty
> >> Pryde's powers to beat some big baddy? Was that the Brood?
> >
> >That's why I explicitly referred to her trying to absorb an _adversary_.
> >
> Again, I didn't think this made a difference.
Well, when absorbing a teamate the risk of having her personality
supplanted isn't really an issue... they're going to have the same
immediate goals she has, most likely.
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:56:52 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Ninjato
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On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Len Carpenter wrote:
> I agree that the ninjato doesn't deserve a +1 STUN multiplier. The typical
> ninjato likely doesn't deserve a +1 OCV bonus either, unlike a high-quality
> katana or wakizashi forged with exquisite skill.
When my group rewrote the weapons lists, we dumped all OCV bonuses for all
weapons, unless the weapon was very quick (like a rapier of jien) of hard
to block (like a flail). OTOH, the +1 OCV for a sword is more a question
of balance then how well the sword was made. If the sword is well
balanced and and handles well, then it will be fairly easy to use, thus
the +1 OCV
> I like to give the quality swords favored by knights and swashbuckler the +1
> OCV. To balance the sword's advantage, I grant a +1 STUN multiplier to heavy
> battle axes to better reflect the crushing power of such weapons in addition
> to their cutting power. A +1 STUN mult I give to common hammers, maces, and
> flails, while the heaviest of such weapons receives a +2 STUN mult. So a
> knight wearing heavy jousting armor capable of absorbing lots of BODY can
> still get his bell rung by a two-handed flail.
I would argue that European swords are pretty much the same quality across
the board for the most part.
Anyway, axes should have the AP advantage, since they purpose is to chop
through armor. One gets the impresion from some of the older Norse sagas
that the axe was a very sharp weapon with great cutting power, not
crushing power.
I would disagree with giving almost any weapon a +2 Stun Multiple.
I would also like to point out that *no one* fouhgt in 'jousting armor'.
Armor for tilting at the list was just that, sport armor for the joust.
This stuff was very thick (up to an 1" of overlapping plates) and rigidly
locked togther. I doubt that hitting someone with a heavly flail would
incapacitate them as badly a you are picturing in your example.
Note: when you say 'heavy jousting armor' I presume you are refering to
the fill suits of plate from the 16th and 17th century. Before that, the
knight wore his usualy gear with a few add ons.
> I have another suggestion for hand-and-a-half weapons. Provided the
> character has the STR min to wield the weapon one-handed, if he chooses to
> wield it with both hands, he gets a +1 Damage Class bonus when gripping it
> two-handed--in a sense, the STR min for swinging it with two hands is reduced
> by 5.
But the STR min of using a hand-and-a-half weapon does go down if you use
it two handed, allowing one to usually get that extra DC in combat. Check
Fantasy Hero and the BBB.
> It gives a further option to characters. A knight who forgoes using a
> shield and swings his bastard sword with both hands gets to do a little extra
> damage, trading a defensive benefit for an offensive one. A samurai trained
> in two-sword fighting (WF: Off-Hand) who chooses to leave his wakizashi
> sheathed to wield his katana two-handed does a bit more damage with his
> primary blade, while losing the DCV bonus, the flexibility of Binding with
> one weapon while striking with the other, and the possibility of surprise
> attacks with the secondary weapon.
Agreed.
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* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
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Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:58:47 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat
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On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Brian Wong wrote:
> > > Often times what I let my players do is give me "comparisons" I can relate
> > > to. Things like "I do a double back-flip like Jackie Chan did in that one
> > > scene in Armor of God VII" and I say "Okay. Make your roll." ;)
> >
> > No way man, Jackie vs Bennie in "Dragons Forever"!
> >
> Naw, the scene in City Hunter where he gets slammed into a video
> game machine and comes out as the girl in Street Fighter II (but the actor
> still being Jackie), then the other guy turns into Ken and starts shooting
> blasts at him.
Jackie Chan as Chun Li, Richard Norton as Ken. Alonng the way, Jackie,
Richard and some extras show up as everyone else too... complete with
fireballs and sonic booms.
> But I don't know if that one's been brought over into english yet. I
> saw it in Chinese while living in asia.
Saw a dubbed copy a long time ago.
Okay, for acrobatics in a fight: Jackie Chan vs Ken Lo in Drunken Master
II!
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 06:59:44 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Ha! I KNEW it! Magic is EVIL!!
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At 07:46 AM 12/15/97 CST, Todd Hanson wrote:
>> Just as a point of fact: the actual "smug a-hole" who started it was
>>posting a bunch of derogatory comments about Christians.
>
>Umm. No.
>
>the 'smug a-hole' who started this merely commented on the amusing fact
>that the Christian Broadcast Network has transferred it's 'D&D is evil'
>campaign to Magic. Seeing as how this list has often discussed the fact
>that Magic has destroyed the role playing industry (as far as WE'RE
>concerned anyway), I thought others would find it amusing as well.
I hope you understand, Todd, that my use of the phrase "smug a-hole" was
a sarcastic quoting of another's phrase. I in no way consider you as such.
>There were no derogatory comments in my original post. The only
>reference to 'Christians' was that it was on CBN (the Christian
>Broadcast Network). Anything else was solely in the minds of certain
>people who need to feel persecuted.
I need to apologize on this count. I should have said, "comments that
were taken as derogatory." My bad.
>This subject was only remotely related to this list to begin with. We've
>gone through the religious bullshit too many times already, and it
>doesn't belong here. Please drop it.
Agreed. I only posted this publicly because I felt that these two
remarks needed to be cleared up. Other than that, I'm done, as I think
everyone else is too.
---
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Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:00:31 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editi
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On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Vox Ludator! wrote:
> Don't duck and cover just yet. :^| To begin with, the only thing really
> wrong with the original HA isn't really something wrong with HA: its price.
> HA costs 3 pts. because 1d6 worth of STR cost 5 points. One is left with
> either the option of raising STR's cost, or living with HA.
Raising STR's cost is really close to the top of the priority queue of
things to be changed in 5th Edition, IMO.
> The trouble is, HA is NOT the normal-damage equivalent of HKA. There's no
> need for such a power (a normal damage power that lets you add STR), because
> the paradigm shifts for normal damage -- STR is not added to HA, HA is added
> to STR, and that's the way it should be: /STR/ is the equivalent of HKA (you
> can use combat maneuvers with just STR, for example).
I disagree - HA should be the normal-damage equivalent of HKA. Assuming
the HA has an Advantage of some kind, it would compare to EB the same way
HKA compares to RKA: inherently No Range, but as a bonus it lets you
convert an amount of your STR into a different type of damage.
Of course, if you just want straight normal HTH damage, the conversion
part isn't useful to you - so you can just take a No Range Energy Blast or
STR "only to deal damage".
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:00:31 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editi
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On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Vox Ludator! wrote:
> Don't duck and cover just yet. :^| To begin with, the only thing really
> wrong with the original HA isn't really something wrong with HA: its price.
> HA costs 3 pts. because 1d6 worth of STR cost 5 points. One is left with
> either the option of raising STR's cost, or living with HA.
Raising STR's cost is really close to the top of the priority queue of
things to be changed in 5th Edition, IMO.
> The trouble is, HA is NOT the normal-damage equivalent of HKA. There's no
> need for such a power (a normal damage power that lets you add STR), because
> the paradigm shifts for normal damage -- STR is not added to HA, HA is added
> to STR, and that's the way it should be: /STR/ is the equivalent of HKA (you
> can use combat maneuvers with just STR, for example).
I disagree - HA should be the normal-damage equivalent of HKA. Assuming
the HA has an Advantage of some kind, it would compare to EB the same way
HKA compares to RKA: inherently No Range, but as a bonus it lets you
convert an amount of your STR into a different type of damage.
Of course, if you just want straight normal HTH damage, the conversion
part isn't useful to you - so you can just take a No Range Energy Blast or
STR "only to deal damage".
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:01:52 -0500
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org>
Subject: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
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> - Similarly seduction should not *necessarily* be sexual. A person can
> be "seduced" by wealth, fame, and power. (Arguably, of course, this could
> be represented with Bribery, though it seems to my mind closer to
> Seduction, semantically speaking.)
Strongly agree; in fact, the existing skill could be read this way (if you
turn off innuendo when reading it :-).
> - Enhanced Senses should include a Touch Sense Group.
Only if there's a thorough discussion of the ramifications (I buy Touch
Darkness and take no STUN!). One could also argue for pain, temperature, and
balance senses/groups (though not me :-).
> - Extra Limbs should go back to having a cost per limb. My own
> structure is 5 points for two arms, with reduced costs for lesser utility
> (3 points for one arm, 3 for a pair of tentacles, 1 for a single tentacle
> or prehensile tail).
I dislike this because it precludes certain concepts from ever being
built. How come you prefer it this way?
> - Linked should be fixed and specific. My recommendation is to go with
> the basic, existing -1/2 bonus to make both Powers used in proportion,
> essentially being treated as a single Power for most purposes. A character
> could also have a "one-way" Link, letting one Power be used up to the level
> that the other is, for -1/4. Linked should still be applicable only to the
> smaller Power (but please specify that this means Active Points).
Yay. :-) I would actually vote for removing Linked entirely and treating it as
"Limited Power" (AND adding a section on how powers link together!); the
restrictions imposed by the link vary so widely that a single value is
inappropriate, IMO.
Geoff Speare
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:15:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Greetings II: Revenge of Greetings
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On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> Hey fellow Listers, what do you think of this? We've been languishing
> for years with little or no official presence on the list, and now we have
> a publisher (Mark), someone with a book in press (Patrick) and one with a
> book in process (me). Is this list getting better, or what? :-]
That's two with books in process, Bob!
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
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Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:27:37 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net (Unverified)
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: That's What I Want...
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>> Because Absorption doesn't _block_ or 'redirect' damage like armor or force
>> fields. It _transforms_ it from damaging 'power' to useful 'power'. It
>> should never have a _chance_ to do damage!
>>
> You know, like the person above, when I first read the original comment
>at the top here I thought "You idiot, buy the Absorption and the proper
>defense." Then I read his defense of it below and must say I now 'almost'
>agree with him (I'll show below where I don't, which is cost of power, and
>why.).
Hey, costs of a power are always debatable. :-)
>> XD6 Aid, 0 END (+1/2), Persistant (+1/2), Only when hit by a power fitting
>> 'Y' SFX (-1/2), Dice of Aid limited by DC of attack (-1/2).
>>
>> It's virtually the SAME construct, with the same conditions. Please, if you
>> can, _justify_ to me the existance of Absorption at all, given that it
>> operates identically to this Aid construct.
>>
> Now that's a very good point. One I hadn't considered before.
The same 'logic' can apply to Transfer (A Drain with a Linked Aid) for a
good deal cheaper (2-3 CP per die). Personally, I think that Transfer should
drop to 10 points per die. As it stands, I've seen very few people buy
Transfer, and it's not just the cost, either - RKAs and Major Transforms are
15 points/die, and people still buy them...
>> Now, back to Absorption acting in a 'damage transformation' manner. Watch
>> how easy this is: for every die of Absorption, you REMOVE one DC of damage
>> from the attack. So if someone with 8D6 Absorption gets hit with a 10D6
>> attack, only 2 damage dice are rolled - everything else gets 'absorbed'.
>> Then, you roll the dice of absorption (up to the maximum) to find out how
>> many 'CPs' are absorbed. Clean, simple, and actually has a reason for
>> existance - but don't mistake it for a cheap defense!! It's JUST as
>> expensive as Energy Blast, on a dice for dice basis. Buying 12D6 Absorption
>> is as expensive as buying 40 points of Resistant PD or ED, or 60 points of
>> non-resistant. 40 rPD will stop a 4D6 RKA or 12D6 Energy Blast just as cold,
>> though it has admittedly little effect on Knockback.
>>
> However. 12d6 Absorption as you state it blocks up to 12d6 EB ALL
>the time. So it's really stopping from 12 to 72 points of damage. However
>a 13d6 EB that rolls all ones will still do 1 point in your construct.
Hmm, good point, but easily solved by rolling dice and countering BODY for
BODY and STUN for STUN. I was kinda trying to reduce the dice rolling
involved (silly me!).
> Now I don't propose to roll the dice of arbsorption AND the
>dice of EB and then compare them for totals (which is what we do now), then
>absorb whatever you rolled and only take the rest (which is diferent from now).
>This has too many dice rolls.
Just as many as we have now.
>But perhaps we could buy absorption like
>PD or ED, only at say 2 or 3 points per point of absorption? Or 5 points per
>3 points of absorption?
There's an idea! Though the upshot of this would be absorbing the BODY of an
attack but still getting nailed by lots of STUN, which doesn't feel right. I
think I'm leaning towards the opposed dice idea now.
> However I think having it cancel out dice for dice is too potent
>under most situations, and oddly weak under some (25 character points of
>absorb should be enough to stop 10 points of damage, weather it was done by
>a 2d6 hit, or a 10d6 hit. However it should not be enough to stop 30
>points of damage, weather or not it's done by 5d6 or 10d6). All other
>defenses in champions are static, so it only makes sense for absorption's
>defensive side to be so as well.
Hey! A new power! Damage Dissipation, 3 points per 1D6, roll for effect and
counter STUN for STUN and BODY for BODY. Must be bought separately for each
of Physical and Energy Damage. Knockback is generated only from the BODY
that gets through. Functions vs Normal and Killing Attacks, but not NNDs or
AVLDs. Remaining damage applies versus conventional defenses.
To 'simulate' Absorption*, you just throw in a Aid, Linked (-1/2), Self Only
(-1/2), Proportional to Attack (-1/2).
Let's introduce the idea of variable defenses into HERO!
<John ducks the thousands of tiny D6's that people start peppering him with
in anger over the thought of more dice rolling in Champs...:-)>
*I don't _need_ a specific power called absorption, but if we're going to
have one, I want it to function 'properly', at least as far as the most
common, comic-book method of Absorption.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:28:07 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net (Unverified)
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: That's What I Want...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>Hiya John. Long time, no argue... :)
Heh. How long ago was that really big row between us? ^_^ Year and a half?
>
> JaRP> Now, back to Absorption acting in a 'damage transformation' manner.
> JaRP> Watch how easy this is: for every die of Absorption, you REMOVE one DC
> JaRP> of damage from the attack.
>Personally, I think this is what Damage Reduction was intended for, but
>different strokes...
Yeah, it does bear some similarities, doesn't it? Though Damage Reduction
takes place after all defenses apply, where as that Abs. construct takes
place before.
>I have also been wondering about the utility of Absorption lately, and I
>had a few ideas for house rulings:
> 1) The 5 points/d6 stands, but it now converts from STUN damage to CPs;
Oik. Too much. Then it really is Aid, just under another name.
> 2) The power works the same as in the book, but is now 3 points/d6
> (like Dispel);
Fairer.
> 3) The power is bought like John suggested, but the dice are rolled to
> conter the attack, STUN to STUN, BODY to BODY. The ability to
> counter out dice, IMO, is pretty potent;
Possibly, and this isn't such a bad idea; as it stands you have to roll
Absorption dice anyways, so it's not adding any extra rolls, is it?
>I'm seriously looking at #1, primarily because, as John stated, you
>don't get enough out of regular Absorption to make it worthwhile... And
I was referring to not getting enough 'defense' out of Armor 'only up to
Absorption roll', though Absorption does, on average, provide only 1/3 to
1/4 the CP gain as an equivalent cost Aid.
>As an aside, does anyone else here restrict the SFX of attacks that
>someone's Damage Reduction/Absorption/etc. can function against (ie
>fire, cold, punches, etc.) rather than just Energy/Physical damage?
Sure. IIRC, the Damage Reduction writeup gives specific examples - "Only vs.
Fire/Heat, (-1)". No reason Absorption shouldn't do the same.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
X-Sender: mlknight@pop.mindspring.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:32:03 -0700
From: Michelle Knight <mlknight@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings II: Revenge of Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 10:15 AM 12/15/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>> Hey fellow Listers, what do you think of this? We've been languishing
>> for years with little or no official presence on the list, and now we have
>> a publisher (Mark), someone with a book in press (Patrick) and one with a
>> book in process (me). Is this list getting better, or what? :-]
>
>That's two with books in process, Bob!
And don't forget the one who's doing the layouts on GRG products (and
soon Hero Games products as well.). :)
Michelle
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 97 10:47:08 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On 12/14/97 8:40 AM, Trevor Barrie (tbarrie@ibm.net) Said:
>Wait... what "super power rules"? The Powers section is pretty fundamental
>to the Hero System; you need it for pretty much any genre except for 100%
>Realistic.
Actually, you need it for that as well. How are you going to have a 9mm
without the RKA Power?
| David A. Fair
Think Different | SDS International
| dfair@sdslink.com
From: rcole@ezy.net (Ron Cole)
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:06:46 -0500
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> Since it seems that the majority of folks (onthis list, anyway) would like
>to see more cardboard minis, let me ask you this: Would you be willing to pay
>an extra $2 for a book that had them included?
Not for Supers, however I'd really like to see a nice selection of fantasy based
collections, like SJG had a while back. When they were available, I couldn't
afford to buy a lot of them, and now that I can, they aren't available anymore.
The metal miniatures are really nice, but I don't have the time or the talent to
paint them, and the cardboard ones are better for wear and tear anyway. I don't
worry about damaging them, and if the do get damaged, the can be replaced
easily. (in theory :-)
Ron
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: RE: It's Not Easy Being Green
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:15:15 -0500 (EST)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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> > With all of these evil green people, only Brainiac 5 and She-Hulk stand
> >out among notable green people in fiction as true heroes in any medium.
> >(Kermit doesn't count; he's a frog.)
> > I say, greens should get together to fight this obvious media
> >stereotyping and discrimination.
<singing to the tune of "Short People">
Green people got, no reason,
Green people got, no reason to live...
-Eric
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:23:19 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: TUSV
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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> I think Chris Avellone's working on something like that. The last I
> heard, it was being called "Essential Villainy."
I'd buy that.
> I don't know the status on it, though; it may have been abandoned, or
> put on a long-term status (like Patrick Bradley's Pirate Hero).
I'd really buy that. GRG, are you listening? There may be some
interest in reviving Pirate Hero.
Argh.
-Tim Gilberg
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:25:44 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 10:01 AM 12/15/97 -0500, Geoffrey Speare wrote:
>> - Similarly seduction should not *necessarily* be sexual. A person can
>> be "seduced" by wealth, fame, and power. (Arguably, of course, this could
>> be represented with Bribery, though it seems to my mind closer to
>> Seduction, semantically speaking.)
>
>Strongly agree; in fact, the existing skill could be read this way (if you
>turn off innuendo when reading it :-).
I just felt that this should be made fully clear.
>> - Enhanced Senses should include a Touch Sense Group.
>
>Only if there's a thorough discussion of the ramifications (I buy Touch
>Darkness and take no STUN!). One could also argue for pain, temperature, and
>balance senses/groups (though not me :-).
With the discussion of ramifications, I agree. It's at least as
important as a discussion of Blindness. (Random thought: Someone Flashed
vs Touch might take no STUN until the Flash wears off; then all the STUN is
applied at once. Probably not very balanced, but it is an interesting idea.)
As for pain, temperature, and balance, I'd call all of those part of the
Touch Sense Group, as well as texture.
>> - Extra Limbs should go back to having a cost per limb. My own
>> structure is 5 points for two arms, with reduced costs for lesser utility
>> (3 points for one arm, 3 for a pair of tentacles, 1 for a single tentacle
>> or prehensile tail).
>
>I dislike this because it precludes certain concepts from ever being
>built. How come you prefer it this way?
Somehow, it just doesn't seem right that a character can have 100 arms
for the same cost as another character whose Extra Limb is merely a
prehensile tail.
Of course, the actual structure could be something different, like 5
points for every 2X arms or whatever.
>> - Linked should be fixed and specific. My recommendation is to go with
>> the basic, existing -1/2 bonus to make both Powers used in proportion,
>> essentially being treated as a single Power for most purposes. A character
>> could also have a "one-way" Link, letting one Power be used up to the level
>> that the other is, for -1/4. Linked should still be applicable only to the
>> smaller Power (but please specify that this means Active Points).
>
>Yay. :-) I would actually vote for removing Linked entirely and treating
it as
>"Limited Power" (AND adding a section on how powers link together!); the
>restrictions imposed by the link vary so widely that a single value is
>inappropriate, IMO.
The three I listed are, I think, the main ones that are liable to be
used; Limited Power can "fill in" for whatever's missing.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:26:51 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings II: Revenge of Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 10:15 AM 12/15/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>> Hey fellow Listers, what do you think of this? We've been languishing
>> for years with little or no official presence on the list, and now we have
>> a publisher (Mark), someone with a book in press (Patrick) and one with a
>> book in process (me). Is this list getting better, or what? :-]
>
>That's two with books in process, Bob!
Oh right, I forgot all about Kazei 5! Sorry, Michael!
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:28:22 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings II: Revenge of Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 08:32 AM 12/15/97 -0700, Michelle Knight wrote:
>At 10:15 AM 12/15/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>>On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>
>>> Hey fellow Listers, what do you think of this? We've been languishing
>>> for years with little or no official presence on the list, and now we have
>>> a publisher (Mark), someone with a book in press (Patrick) and one with a
>>> book in process (me). Is this list getting better, or what? :-]
>>
>>That's two with books in process, Bob!
>
> And don't forget the one who's doing the layouts on GRG products (and
>soon Hero Games products as well.). :)
Awesome! :-]
This place is really getting thick with official presence. Now if we
could only get one of The Big Guys to subscribe, but I think Mark will have
to suffice for that (sort of like wanting the President of the United
States and getting the President pro tem of the Senate -- not quite the
same thing, but still impressive).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
X-Sender: bsvitavs@acs-mail.bu.edu
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:21:27 -0500
From: bsvitavs@bu.edu (Bill Svitavsky)
Subject: Re: Slipperiness
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
>At 06:31 PM 12/15/97 -0800, Rick Holding wrote:
>>I think one thing you may have missed would be some sort of
>>reduction in movement and accelleration. Little or nor traction would
>>mean the tires/feet/etc woudl be moving like hell but not getting very
>>far.
>
> This is what I currently have down for the effect of a Slick. Tell me
>what you think.
>
> If the Transform is successful, then the ground becomes slippery.
>Characters and vehicles using Ground Movement must make a DEX Roll at -3
>(or a Combat Vehicle Operations or similar Roll at no penalty) when
>entering the hex or lose control (see Chapter Three for more details on
>this). Even if this Roll is successful, a second Roll at -2 (in addition
>to any other Modifiers) must be made if the character or vehicle attempts
>to accelerate, decelerate, or turn while in the affected area.
> At the GM's option, every BODY pip above the 16 needed to successfully
>enact the Transform, up to the maximum that can be rolled on the dice, adds
>another -1 to the DEX or Combat Vehicle Operations Rolls.
>
I think this beats any previously published solution to this slippery
problem, but I still have a few qualms with it. While Transform seems like
the most "legal" way to go about creating the effect, you're stuck with the
power working vs. BODY. With this approach, it's easier to make dirt or
sand slippery than to affect a paved or metal surface - five minutes of
rain will prove that wrong.
Your effects for the power make sense; I'll assume you deal with what it
means for a running character to "lose control" in Chapter Three. I would
like to see some mention of defenses against a slippery surface - does
Clinging stop it? Is it entirely dependent on SFX? If you're feeling really
ambitious, you might try to build studded snow tires.
Just for further comparison, I'll include my "more or less within the
rules" fix, built here for a one hex effect:
Slipperiness Effect (existing rules):
4 pts. Martial Throw
Area Effect (+1), Continuous (+1), Ranged (+1/2),
Uncontrolled (+1/2), DEX or Breakfall Roll to Remain
Standing & Avoid Damage (-1/2), Doesn't Affect Flying or
Clinging Targets (-1/2), Nonmoving Target Won't
Fall (-1/2)
5 pts. Darkness
Only to Reduce DCV (-1), Linked to Martial Throw (-1/2),
DEX or Breakfall Roll instead of PER roll to get only -1
DCV (-0)
And optionally:
14 pts. 2d6 Suppress vs. Clinging, Area Effect (+1),
Continuous (+1), Ranged (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2),
Linked to Martial Throw (-1/2)
Thus, you get a continuous area effect attack that does v/5 damage (a zero
strength martial throw) to anyone moving who fails a DEX roll. Dive for
Cover works particularly nicely with this effect, as taking -1 per inch
moved is a pretty good simulation of moving across a slippery surface. The
Uncontrolled advantages assumes you're creating ice or something that hangs
around for a while; if the effect only lasts while you put effort into it,
the slipperiness could be built without that advantage. The Darkness effect
may seem weird, since it doesn't at all effect the target's perceptions,
but it's the only good power to give someone 1/2 DCV. I know lots of people
object to ranged Martial Arts, though I find it a better alternative than
the Transform BODY problem.
Really, though, I think slipperiness needs to be a power. Creating a new
power probably isn't within the scope of TUSV, so whatever you use will
necessarily be a bit of a kludge.
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:23:28 -0600
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net
Organization: Redbow Antiques
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
GoldRushG wrote:
> << Major Mistake. The powers rules have many applications outside of
> Super Powers. I think the Hero system rulebook should be the same size > as it was in 4th edition.>>
> My bad. I think the plan *was* (or, rather, *is*) to have all the > character creation rules (including the "powers") in the Hero System > Rules book, and treat the Champions book as the campaign book (perhaps > with a few extra goodies, and certainly plenty of clear examples!).
>
> Mark @ GRG
I agree totally and can't wait for this to happen. This is the way it
should always have been. Hero system is a great "Generic" game system,
but because it has always been combined with Champions and because of a
lack (relatively) of World books it has been overlooked and other game
systems (like say Gurps, which I like) have taken it's place.
X-Sender: mlknight@pop.mindspring.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:24:32 -0700
From: Michelle Knight <mlknight@mindspring.com>
Subject: Layouts
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Hello all,
I've been reading the recent posts about what y'all want to see in GRG
products as
far as the layout goes, and I just want you to know that I have been paying
attention
and taking notes.
I've noticed that most listers like sidebars, and I've only seen a one
or two posts against them. Personally, I enjoy sidebars and most likely
will include them in SANDS OF TIME (the project I'm currently working on --
my first), but don't quote me on that. :)
If you have any other suggestions on layouts please do not hesitate to
email me or post them to this list. Thanks. :)
Michelle
X-Sender: bsvitavs@acs-mail.bu.edu
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:28:22 -0500
From: bsvitavs@bu.edu (Bill Svitavsky)
Subject: Re: Slipperiness
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Rick Holding wrote:
>I think one thing you may have missed would be some sort of
>reduction in movement and accelleration. Little or nor traction would
>mean the tires/feet/etc woudl be moving like hell but not getting very
>far.
I agree this is missing, although the power already discourages moving
rapidly by penalizing the DEX roll for each inch of movement. Rather than
further complicating the power, I'd rather leave it to players to construct
any additional penalties they feel appropriate, probably through a Suppress
vs. movement.
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:34:39 -0600
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net
Organization: Redbow Antiques
Subject: Re: Special Offers to the list
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
GoldRushG wrote:
>
> Would the list lurkers here be in favor of occasional special offers on Hero products if we were to do that? Something akin to "No shipping on orders" or a slight discount? We're considering starting seasonal or holiday-themed sales and I wanted to get feedback from folks here on the idea.
>
> Mark @ GRG
At the risk of spending more money later, I would have to say that I
would end up buying a Hero system book as soon as I could. I would not
wait for a sale and if there was a sale I probably wouldn't end up
buying more just because of it.
So for me a sale is wasted.....but of course if you just want to give
me a discount....
Just being honest.
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage o
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:37:35 -0800
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Saturday, December 13, 1997 11:37 AM, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>> What's so horrifying about having two powers that can be used
>> independently or gang-fired?
>
> Basically, it takes the focus away from SFX and into power
>effects. You define a SFX and take a power for it. You don't take
a
>couple of powers, give them each SFX, then say that together they
make up
>a new SFX.
Uh, I can think of a number of SFX that would allow both separate and
together uses of a power. Double-barreled shotguns (possibly with two
different types of shot- say, slugs and birdshot), a super with a
different power in each hand, etc.
Filksinger
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:39:51 -0600 (CST)
Subject: TUSV
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Rook < Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> > writes:
>
> > take what I post as gospel even if you'd take TUSV itself as such.
>
> Am I the only one who keeps wanting to read that as
> "The Ultimate Super Villian"?
> Which in itself may make for a justifiable book.
>
I have to make an effort not to read it that way too.
I'd also like to see "The Ultimate Super Villain".
Curt Hicks
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:49:28 -0800
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On Saturday, December 13, 1997 12:06 PM, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
<snip>
>
>Actually, this sounds something like what the 3rd edition was. It got
rid
>of the 2nd edition's bending eyebeam on the cover, fixed up a few
rough
>spots, and looked a bit slicker.
I would probably prefer a 5th Ed. that improved on the 4th Ed. the way
the 4th Ed. was intended to improve on the 3rd.
>I'm all for the 5th ed. In addition to the various suggestions people
have
>already made, I hope it includes either a "slipperiness" power or a
>revised Change Environment that can make an icy surface with combat
>effects. (My pet peeve.)
My personal request: FIX THE FALLING RULES. They are ridiculous now.
"The monster is right behind you. What do you do?" "I leap off this
building." Yuck.
>If there are any extensive changes at all, I wouldn't mind seeing
>something like (but not exactly like) the "Incomplete Character"
rules.
Yes. I would definitely like to see something like that.
Some people hate the Spirit rules, I rather like them. I would like to
see them expanded upon, possibly as part of the "Incomplete Character"
rules, and cleaned up a bit.
Filksinger
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:50:27 -0600
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net
Organization: Redbow Antiques
Subject: Re: Greetings II: Revenge of Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Pat10355 wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I've just joined the mailing list and I wanted to quickly introduce >myself.
>I'm Patrick Sweeney, a Champions player since the very first edition >and the author of the forthcoming San Angelo: City of Heroes campaign >book from Gold Rush Games.
I am pretty new to this list as well and have been enjoying it ever
since. I downloaded your first two chapters of the Gold Rush Games
Website and me and my group took a session to read it.
Wow!! Great job. We all loved the quotes you used and can't wait to
play it. I wish it was January now.
Bobby Farris
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: CHAR: KARZA DRONES
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:00:08 -0800
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On Saturday, December 13, 1997 2:01 PM, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>At 05:38 PM 12/13/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>>On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>>> Are ya'll objecting because it's difficult to keep track of, or
because it
>>> can be abusive (*very* abusive, in some cases)? In the case of
the sample
>>> character, it had a base 2 SPD, and +2 SPD for whatever, so it
would be
>>> easier to keep track of...
>>
>>1 - it can be difficult to keep track of. Things like 2 SPD + 2 SPD
to do
>>x (or 4 + 4) are easy. But what aboput a SPD 3 with a + 2 SPD only
to do
>>'x'?
>>
>Yep. That's tricky. That's why I said 2 + 2 was okay... but I
*would* shy
>away from that other.
I don't find that tricky at all. For the SPD 3 with a +2 SPD only to
do x, I would write up a SPD 5 character, with certain phases limited.
>>2 - it is very abusive.
>>
>Exactly how? I would probably give a very light Lim. Maybe a -1/2
at
>most. Could you illuminate me on this?
It _can_ be. So can HA. Personally, I use optional rules for HA (from
the Hero Games website), and would allow only minimal limitations on
"limited SPD".
>>3 - it really plays hell with things like getting Stunned and
Recoveries.
>>
>But, if the extra SPD is only for Y (which doesn't include getting
Stunned
>or Recovering), I don't see the problem. I'd have them miss *that*
Phase,
>too.
I agree on this one.
>>> I might let it in my game if it were like this (simple), and it
wouldn't be
>>> much of a Lim.
>>
>>On the flip side, there is the problem of designing something like a
>>multi-headed creature (like a hydra). If I give it a 9 Speed (to
>>represent all those heads) then things live its over all moement
rate,
>>Recoveries end END usage get out of hand. And if I kill a head, it
still
>>keeps its old SPD.
>>
>Yes, that's ugly. I never saw the Bestiary... did they do it like
this? I
>thought I had heard someone say it was multiple creatures, with being
one
>creature a SFX.
Duplication, only one body?:)
>>But I still think '+x SPD only to do y' is abusive and shouldn't be
>>allowed.
>>
>Fair enough. : ) Thanks for the response.
Fair enough. However, there should _always_ be a way to model a
particular character. What about a person whose mental powers are
effortless, and operate as fast as they can think, but whose body is
slow and has poor reflexes? I don't see Disadvantages being much of a
solution, and you've forbidden Limitations to solve the problem.
Filksinger
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Ninjato
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 15 Dec 1997 13:02:41 -0500
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>>>>> "G" == GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> writes:
G> Here is a reply to the ninjato thread that I sent to the Sengoku list.
[...]
Interesting... I'll have to dig up my (Japanese historical) references for
comparison.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 15 Dec 1997 13:05:38 -0500
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>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
>> I would suggest that that particlur rule was placed to stop people
>> saying "I have a 3d6 flash. I will link my 12d6 energy blast to it.
>> -1/2 on the energy blast, thanks"
BG> Precisely. So how would you work such a construct where the Flash
BG> always went off with the EB?
If Champions III may be used as a reference, when one puts multiple powers
into a single framework slot, they are treated as a single power. No
modifiers are required for this to occour. Use of powers in such a slot is
proportional -- if you use your EB at half power, you must use your Flash
at half power.
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Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:15:52 -0600
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net
Organization: Redbow Antiques
Subject: Re:Champions 5th edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At the risk of getting lynched I would like to say that one thing
Fuzion did that I would like to see in a 5th edition of Champions is the
change in the Damage class table.
Make Damage class three killing attack be 3d6K not 1d6K. It would make
it a lot less confusing.
I think it wouldn't destroy any 4th edition characters just make it
where you had to do a little math before you used them(math is something
no Champions player should have a problem with).
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:16:04 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Rook wrote:
Re: Transform
> > I can think of things which reduce costs that should be Minor (blinding,
> > for example). Also, the rule about "no point increases" desperately needs
> > to be reinstated.
>
> If it was reinstated, how would you do the special effect of the ray gun
> ordiety that grants powers/turns normals into mutants, etc...
Transform linked to Aid. If all you're doing is adding Powers, then
arguably Aid alone would work. Alternately, if you assume the people
being transformed are "game irrelevant", you can just use Summon.
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:21:21 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, John and Ron Prins wrote:
> >> - Force Field and Force Wall should have Flash Defense, Mental Defense,
> >> and Power Defense methods built right in.
> >
> >Force Wall, maybe. Force Field would be pointless. (Just buy them Costs
> >END.)
>
> By that argument you could just buy Armor that 'Costs END' to simulate a
> Force Field.
Yes, absolutely.
> >I can think of things which reduce costs that should be Minor (blinding,
> >for example). Also, the rule about "no point increases" desperately needs
> >to be reinstated.
>
> Well, that's hard to say. After all, if Mysterium the Mage and friends are
> falling off a cliff, and Mysterium wants to do a Transform to give everyone
> wings, well, he can't, because of the rule you mention.
He can do an Aid Flight, though.
> He can't turn those 25 point peasants into tigers (233 points according to
> the HERO Bestiary).
This, too, can be done with Transform linked to Aid, or just "Summon
Tigers, requires peasants nearby(-1/2)" if you consider the peasants to be
effectively just scenery.
> >> - Reduced END should be half END for +1/4, 1 END for +1/2, 0 END for
> >> +3/4, and Persistent for +1.
> >
> >I don't see the point of the "1 END" level.
>
> Me neither. Though I _would_ like to see an official modifier, 'Costs END to
> Activate, but not Maintain', though I'm not sure what it's worth. Probably a
> +1/4).
Assuming the current costs for Costs END/0 END stay the same, it would
pretty much have to be +1/4 for Powers that normally cost END, -1/4 for
Powers which normally don't. I've been using this for a while.
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA/ Desol Super Dodge
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:23:41 -0800
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Saturday, December 13, 1997 6:48 PM, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
<snip>
>Rather than a generic +1/2 Advantage that for some reason affects
>any desolid character, regardless of special effect, I'd have a bunch
of
>+1/4 Advantages like Affects Ghosts/Spirits, Affects Dimensional
Shifted,
>Affects Temporally Displaced, etc. Actually, I think I'd still call
it one
>advantage, but require SFX to be specified in order to determine
>applicability.
This works good. However, you had better define, at the beginning of a
campaign, what sorts of Desolid are allowed. Otherwise, the players
might legitimately object when their "Affects X" power is useless, but
their enemies all have a "Desolid, SFX X" that they never considered
buying an attack for.
>I might also do something similar for Hardened. Why should titanium
steel
>walls stop a dimension walking teleporter?
Yes. _Please_ fix this.
Filksinger
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: PART
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:27:05 -0800
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Saturday, December 13, 1997 8:21 PM, GoldRushG wrote:
<snip>
>
> The supplement will also include some new villains (from the "PART
case
>files"), a few new skills, some tips on playing and GMing PART
adventures,
>creating PART PCs (in case some folks go for that sort of thing),
PART tactics
>(just how *do* they capture and transport those supervillains?), some
PART-
>based adventures, NPC write-ups of PART personnel, and so on.
>
Don't forget those neat standard issue chronometers. You know, the
"PART timers".
Filksinger
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Atmospheric FTL
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:45:17 -0800
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Saturday, December 13, 1997 9:19 PM, Brian Wong wrote:
<snip>
> Tell me about it...
>I wanted 'Detective Mao', a Chinese teleporter who works as a liason
with
>(insert world's US gov team) to do a daily commute from Beijing. It
>came to about 80 points in *2 add ons... To make it cost justifiable
I
>had to tack on a lim of extra time up to an hour, as well as a few
other
>lims. It was still very expensive and so I have yet to add it on to
the
>character.
Yes, it is a horribly expensive power, but not nearly valuable enough
for the price. I had considered a set of linked powers, firing one
after another, consisting of Teleportation upwards 100 kilometers, FTL
travel to directly above some point on Earth, followed by
Teleportation downwards 100 kilometers. Kludgey, and way too
expensive.
Filksinger
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:50:00 -0500
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org>
Subject: Layouts
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> I've noticed that most listers like sidebars, and I've only seen a one
> or two posts against them.
I love sidebars with one exception: when they have rules (or anything else I'm
likely to be scanning the book for during game play). Biggest GURPS layout
mistake was putting real rules in the sidebars.
Geoff Speare
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:50:52 -0500 (EST)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> BG> Precisely. So how would you work such a construct where the Flash
> BG> always went off with the EB?
>
> If Champions III may be used as a reference, when one puts multiple powers
> into a single framework slot, they are treated as a single power. No
> modifiers are required for this to occour. Use of powers in such a slot is
> proportional -- if you use your EB at half power, you must use your Flash
> at half power.
>
Yes, this seems reasonable, but how would you handle powers and attributes
linked to powers without varying degrees? For instance, 10pts of COM linked
to Shape Shift. Would you require the shape shifter to use his/her full
COM everytime he/she shapeshifts, just part of it, or allow him/her to
use all, none, or any value inbetween? I'm trying to think of other examples,
but I guess Shape Shift is the big question. I mean, you could link all
sorts of things to Shape Shift, and justify it by special effects: PD, ED,
STR, DEX, CON, Armor, HKA, etc. How much flexibility would you give a
Shape Shifter in using these linked powers?
-Eric
X-Sender: nolan@pop.erols.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:01:33 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re:Champions 5th edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<x-rich>At 12:15 PM 12/15/97 -0600, bobby farris wrote:
>At the risk of getting lynched I would like to say that one thing
>Fuzion did that I would like to see in a 5th edition of Champions is the
>change in the Damage class table.
> Make Damage class three killing attack be 3d6K not 1d6K. It would make
>it a lot less confusing.
> I think it wouldn't destroy any 4th edition characters just make it
>where you had to do a little math before you used them(math is something
>no Champions player should have a problem with).
I disagree, vehemently. The 'ton's 'o dice' paradigm is bad enough without sucking in killing damage, too.
First, if the math of conversion doesn't confuse you, then the 3DC= 1 die killing shouldn't be too very taxing, either.
Second, the more dice you roll, the less random the result. You are far more likely to get an average result on, say 6d6 than you are on 2d6. Randomness is critical, especially at the lower end of power, where most killing attacks get used.
Those of you with characters that do 24d6 damage should just consider applying 84 stun and 24 body every time and save your wrists from all that dice rolling.
Scott
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The German dragon shall find it hard to escape
to its cavernous lairs, for vengeance for it's
treason will overtake it. In the end it will become
strong again, just for a short time, but the
decimation of Normandy will be a sorry blow.
<bold>Geoffrey of Monmouth</bold>, c. 1136
<italic>The Prophecies of Merlin
</italic>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scott Nolan
nolan@erols.com
</x-rich>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:02:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re:Champions 5th edition
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
bobby farris writes:
> At the risk of getting lynched I would like to say that one thing
> Fuzion did that I would like to see in a 5th edition of Champions is the
> change in the Damage class table.
> Make Damage class three killing attack be 3d6K not 1d6K. It would make
> it a lot less confusing.
> I think it wouldn't destroy any 4th edition characters just make it
> where you had to do a little math before you used them(math is something
> no Champions player should have a problem with).
While obliterating the stun lottery has a certain appeal, I don't think that
making a 12 DC killing attack average 42 body would be a particularly good
idea....
The ratio between 'ability to do stun' and 'ability to kill things' in HERO is
a bit low (fear my pistol; I cannot possibly kill you with it, but I can sure
knock you unconscious!), but I think Fuzion took it a bit too far in the other
direction.
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:32:20 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> > - Extra Limbs should go back to having a cost per limb. My own
> > structure is 5 points for two arms, with reduced costs for lesser utility
> > (3 points for one arm, 3 for a pair of tentacles, 1 for a single tentacle
> > or prehensile tail).
>
> That was one of the silliest parts of the previous edition of Champions; I
> certainly have no desire to see it return. Building the 100-armed giants
> of Greek mythology should _not_ mandate a Power on the order of 1000
> points.
Agreed. Since each limb in champs does not give an extra attack, having one
extraor one million extra makes no noticable effect on the game. If it was 1
point per limb Prehensile
Hair would either
A: get VERY expensive.
B: be forced to all move together as 'one item', killing the 'medusa effect' for
all but multi-million point
characters.
> > - Flash, as mentioned elsewhere, should be 5 points per die, with each
> > BODY pip of Flash working for 1 segment. (It makes Flash Defense more
> > balanced.)
>
> Sounds okay.
>
And / or raise the cost of Flash Defense to 5 points per point of defense.
> > - Force Field and Force Wall should have Flash Defense, Mental Defense,
> > and Power Defense methods built right in.
>
> Force Wall, maybe. Force Field would be pointless. (Just buy them Costs
> END.)
>
I always liked GURPS Super's method. 'Wall' is an advantage that can be added
onto a power.I think Armor, Force Field, and Force Wall should be combined into
one power. Then use advantages
of limitations to get the particular version desired.
> > - Stretching should be cheaper. I like 2 points per 1", though this may
> > be an overreaction.
>
> Sounds reasonable.
>
Yeah, it really is an 'odd' movement power.
> > - Transform should be more specifically described as well, especially in
> > terms of what constitutes Cosmetic, Minor, and Major Transforms. (I tend
> > to go with this: if it doesn't affect the character sheet, it's Cosmetic;
> > if it shifts points around on the sheet or alters specific Powers but
> > doesn't change the totals, it's Minor; if it changes point totals, it's
> > Major.)
>
> I can think of things which reduce costs that should be Minor (blinding,
> for example). Also, the rule about "no point increases" desperately needs
> to be reinstated.
>
If it was reinstated, how would you do the special effect of the ray gun
ordiety that grants powers/turns normals into mutants, etc...
Admittadly not a power you let loose into the hands of players in most games,
but a mechanic for it should exist.
> > - Always On should have a variation where certain Limitations (END Cost,
> > Focus, etc.) represent how the Power is turned off with an effort.
>
> Good idea.
>
Yeah. I have several characters who have to concentrate to keep a power
fromgoing off. It's always been a hack to do them in Hero.
> > - Linked should be fixed and specific. My recommendation is to go with
> I agree, more or less. The current version of Linked, with a
>
Kind of a moot issue since I can use 'limited' to do it however I
wantalready.
> > - DNPC should allow +5 points for every 2X individuals on one Roll.
> > Also allow DNCP Rolls of 5 or less (Rarely) for +0 points, and 17 or less
> > (Constantly) for +20 points.
> > - Hunted, similarly, should allow Hunted Rolls of 5 or less (Rarely) for
> > -5 points, and 17 or less (Constantly) for +15 points.
>
> Maybe, but I'd put a caveat stating that the 17- level shouldn't be used
> unless the character in question is focal to the campaign. 14- is already
> really, really high.
>
I don't personally see the point of 17-.14- will occur 90.7% of the time.
17- will occur more than 98.1% of the time.
I would not allow a 17- in a game I ran. The last significant break is at 15-,
which is 95.4% of the time.
And even there the diference between a 14- and 15- is not enough to justify even
a full point IMHO.
--
Rook
Super Hero Links Page:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:35:05 -0500
From: "Kevin J. McClain" <KevLord@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: KevLord@worldnet.att.net
Organization: Courts of Kirkwood
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Slipperiness
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Bill Svitavsky wrote:
> >At 06:31 PM 12/15/97 -0800, Rick Holding wrote:
> >>I think one thing you may have missed would be some sort of
> >>reduction in movement and accelleration. Little or nor traction would
> >>mean the tires/feet/etc woudl be moving like hell but not getting very
> >>far.
> >
>
> Really, though, I think slipperiness needs to be a power. Creating a new
> power probably isn't within the scope of TUSV, so whatever you use will
> necessarily be a bit of a kludge.
I may have missed the answer to this question, but what is wrong with Change
Environment? As it was described in Hero System Almanac 2( pages 28-30), CE
imposes sight modifiers and combat modifiers. You could add movement reduction
by saying every 20 points of CE reduces ground movement 2" and halves
acceleration.
Besides, coming up with a separate new power would necessatate coming up with a
separate new defense.
Love in Christ
Kev
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:38:14 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>> - Force Field and Force Wall should have Flash Defense, Mental Defense,
>> and Power Defense methods built right in.
>
>Force Wall, maybe. Force Field would be pointless. (Just buy them Costs
>END.)
By that argument you could just buy Armor that 'Costs END' to simulate a
Force Field.
>> - Life Support should have some of its elements able to be broken down
>> even further, like 2 points for being immune to *either* heat *or* cold.
>
>You already can do this - LS: Extreme Temperatures, only vs heat(-1/2).
>Simple enough.
Not really. After all, the exact limitation is debateable. If a power is
only half as useful, it should cost half as much - i.e. a -1 limitation for
'only vs heat'. How much of 'does not eat, sleep, excrete' is 'does not
sleep'? These need to be defined, thus forming more discrete Life Support
separations.
>> - Stretching should be cheaper. I like 2 points per 1", though this may
>> be an overreaction.
>
>Sounds reasonable.
Personally, I think 1" for 3 points would be best.
>> - Transform should be more specifically described as well, especially in
>> terms of what constitutes Cosmetic, Minor, and Major Transforms. (I tend
>> to go with this: if it doesn't affect the character sheet, it's Cosmetic;
>> if it shifts points around on the sheet or alters specific Powers but
>> doesn't change the totals, it's Minor; if it changes point totals, it's
>> Major.)
>
>I can think of things which reduce costs that should be Minor (blinding,
>for example). Also, the rule about "no point increases" desperately needs
>to be reinstated.
Well, that's hard to say. After all, if Mysterium the Mage and friends are
falling off a cliff, and Mysterium wants to do a Transform to give everyone
wings, well, he can't, because of the rule you mention. He can't turn those
25 point peasants into tigers (233 points according to the HERO Bestiary).
And so on. Perhaps the introduction of some sort of 'system shock' with
respect to Transforms on living organisms would limit the abuse. I dunno.
>> - Damage Shield should be clarified so that *any* significant contact,
>> including the character with DS making an attack against the target, will
>> cause damage.
>
>Rather, they should reiterate the fact that the character with DS making
>an attack against the target _doesn't_ cause damage. If you want to do
>that, buy a normal attack version.
Don't agree, UNLESS you're in the 'you can activate as many attack powers as
you want' camp. If I throw up a 'flame shroud' Damage Shield and then punch
somebody, I should expect that my DS does damage as well. After all, what's
the diff between MY flame shrouded fist striking someone or somebody
striking me with their fist, hitting the flame shroud?
>> - Reduced END should be half END for +1/4, 1 END for +1/2, 0 END for
>> +3/4, and Persistent for +1.
>
>I don't see the point of the "1 END" level.
Me neither. Though I _would_ like to see an official modifier, 'Costs END to
Activate, but not Maintain', though I'm not sure what it's worth. Probably a
+1/4).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:39:30 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re:Champions 5th edition
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To: champ-l@omg.org
>At the risk of getting lynched I would like to say that one thing
>Fuzion did that I would like to see in a 5th edition of Champions is the
>change in the Damage class table.
> Make Damage class three killing attack be 3d6K not 1d6K. It would make
>it a lot less confusing.
> I think it wouldn't destroy any 4th edition characters just make it
>where you had to do a little math before you used them(math is something
>no Champions player should have a problem with).
So you are saying that 1 Damage Class would equal 3d6 K (killing) meaning it
would translate to 9d6 Normal? Yes, I can see that ruining a lot of 4th
Edition characters. The amount of power they would get for just one damage
class would be horrible. Or am I misunderstanding you somewhere here? So
now I would have to buy 1/3 Damage class just to get 3d6 Normal damage or
1/9 Damage Class to equal 1 dice of normal damage? To much math for me.
Like I said, please explain further if I'm confused to what you are saying.
Otherwise, maybe I'm pointing something out here that would suggest not
making 1 Damage Class equal to 3d6 Killing. Take it easy and talk at you later.
Sparx
=====================================================
Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:42:18 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Gold Rush Games Mailing List???
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> > Hey, that's better than I got it. I go to the store here in San
> >Francisco (Gamescape on Divisadero) and ask for Ultimate Martial Artist on
> >disk and get:
> >
> > "doesn't exist, Hero games went out of business."
> >
> [Sensible Action #1 clipped]
> >
> > "doesn't exist, Hero games went out of business."
> >
> [Sensible Action #2 clipped]
> >
> > "doesn't exist, Hero games went out of business."
> >
> [Theoretical Sensible Action clipped]
> >
> > "doesn't exist, Hero games went out of business."
>
> Since you live in the same general area, maybe you should email Bruce
> Harlick and have him go down there and explain things to the people there.
Yeah, but considering my luck here; they'd probably just tell him:
"doesn't exist, Hero games went out of business."
:)
I think I'll just send off a check to Hero Plus in a month or two. Course I no
longer have
unlimited Printing access, so it's not of much use to me. And I don't want that
3 ring binder
monster. :(
Nor do I want to pay the cost of getting both paper and disk, then going
through the hassle of
getting them NOT to hole punch the paper.
Rook
Super Hero Links Page:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:51:39 -0500
From: "Kevin J. McClain" <KevLord@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: KevLord@worldnet.att.net
Organization: Courts of Kirkwood
CC: Champs Email List <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Ha! I KNEW it!! Magic is EVIL!!!]
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Jeff
I would hasten to remind you that my religious views were in response to a
posting on the list. I have noticed that this list doesn't exactly stay on
course as far as discussing only Champions relatred material but I agree with
the general consensus that the discussion should be continued via private Email.
That leaves you. I don't understand the depths of you anger nor the ferocity of
your rebuke. But let me just say this: If anyone has a anti-christian sentiment
to express, and it is their constitutional right to do so, expect me to reply. I
will contend for the Faith as the Bible puts it. So should something similar
happen in the future, thicken your skin.
Love in Christ
Kev
Jeff O'Connor wrote:
> Kevin:
>
> I don't give one whit about your fundamentalist views where this mailing
> list is concerned. I think it is just peachy that you have reconciled your
> particular religious world-view with your hobbies, but frankly I really
> don't give a damn about the finer points of the former. Please keep your
> religious views out of this mailing list - while they have their place, the
> Champions mailing list really isn't it.
>
> Thank You.
>
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:51:46 -0800
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On Sunday, December 14, 1997 4:57 AM, Michael Sprague wrote:
<snip>
>
>> If a larger power "Does Not Work Under Certain Circumstances,"
then any
>> Power that's Linked to it should have it as well. I can think of
no
>reason
>> not to.
>
>Then think a little harder. There are plenty of reasons why the
large
>power might not work but the power linked to it could ... if it
weren't
>linked. Your simply combining two different powers here, and each
can have
>it's own SFX, Advantages and Limitations. I can see no reason why
the
>_must_ be the same.
Because they automatically are. If I have a power "Does not work
underwater", and another power Linked to that one, the second power
_automatically_ does not work underwater. So long as a limitation
prevents a power from being used at all, any power linked to it
automatically suffers the same limitation.
Now, if the power is limited in a fashion that allows it to be used,
but is useless, _then_ the linked power does not need the same
limitation. If I have an EB, "Does not damage inanimate objects", and
a linked RKA, the RKA does not need that limitation.
Thus, "Does not work when X" should be applied to both, but "Does not
affect X" doesn't have to be.
>> But no interpretation of it that I've ever seen before you has
ever
>> allowed non-proportional use, nor the use of the larger Power
without the
>> use of the Linked Power. Those are *extremely* important balancers
for
>> this Limitation.
>
>Then you haven't been around this argument long enough ... this is
the
>first time I think I have read about forcing the powers to be
proportional
>(though granted, I skipped the last two times Linked was debated).
There
>is _nothing_ in the book to even imply that the Linked powers must be
used
>proportionally. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, it's not ... just
that
>since it's not in the book, and thus would be a house ruling.
It was the official ruling in the original verson of Linked, back in
the 2nd or 3rd ed. Furthermore, if you do _not_ require this, then I
can use the powers almost entirely separately, thereby eliminating the
Limitation that Linked is supposed to create.
>The concept that the larger Power must also use the Linked Power is
pure
>bull, and had nothing to do with balancing the Limitation. If you
applied
>the Limitation to both powers, then I could see your point. But
since you
>don't I just can't agree.
You can't add the Limitation to both powers, because it is a)
forbidden, and b) a worthless point crock. Consider these powers:
66 20d6 EB, Linked
3 1 hex Change Environment "Create light", Linked
69 Total
A complete point crock. For a cost of 3 pts, the character saves ten
times as many points, with no Limitation on the larger power _AT ALL_.
No matter whether or not you use Linked to force both powers to be
linked or only the lesser, _only_ the lesser can _ever_ take the
Limitation.
Filksinger
X-Sender: shelley@mail.mactyre.net
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:53:15 -0800
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <shelley@mactyre.net>
Subject: Re: Greetings II: Revenge of Greetings
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 10:15 AM 12/15/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>> Hey fellow Listers, what do you think of this? We've been languishing
>> for years with little or no official presence on the list, and now we have
>> a publisher (Mark), someone with a book in press (Patrick) and one with a
>> book in process (me). Is this list getting better, or what? :-]
>
>That's two with books in process, Bob!
Well, three, actually. =)
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
www.mactyre.net
Your children will see the stars.
--Robert A. Heinlein
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:54:45 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
Subject: Re: Greetings II: Revenge of Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> >>
> Awesome! :-]
> This place is really getting thick with official presence. Now if we
> could only get one of The Big Guys to subscribe, but I think Mark will have
> to suffice for that (sort of like wanting the President of the United
> States and getting the President pro tem of the Senate -- not quite the
> same thing, but still impressive).
Hey at least we're not getting Dan Quayle. :) (insert image of crossing
fingers.)
--
Rook
Super Hero Links Page:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:00:04 -0500
From: "Kevin J. McClain" <KevLord@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: KevLord@worldnet.att.net
Organization: Courts of Kirkwood
Subject: I stand chastised
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
I apologize for any hurt feelings out there. I realize that anything
beyond my first reply would have this effect. I hope my fellow
Christians on the list would understand the source of my zeal. The Bible
says contend for the Faith. The discussion has gone to private email.
Love in Christ
Kev
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:03:32 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Champions 5th edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> At the risk of getting lynched I would like to say that one thing
> Fuzion did that I would like to see in a 5th edition of Champions is the
> change in the Damage class table.
> Make Damage class three killing attack be 3d6K not 1d6K. It would make
> it a lot less confusing.
> I think it wouldn't destroy any 4th edition characters just make it
> where you had to do a little math before you used them(math is something
> no Champions player should have a problem with).
Are you therefore saying multiply all current killing attack by 3? making
them much more
lethal (as fuzion does). Or making 1 kDC = 3 nDC?
As opposed to the current system of 1DC=1DC=1dn=5pts worth of killing attack
(3DC=3DC=3dn=1dk)
--
Rook
Super Hero Links Page:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
X-Sender: ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:10:24 -0600
From: Guy Hoyle <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
Subject: Germania!
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
I have fiendish plans for the PCs in my Pulp campaign regarding Germania,
that sturdy embodiment of Germanic womanhood from GAC. However, I hate the
name. Anybody have a better one for this amply-built refugee from a
Wagnerian opera?
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:13:08 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
Subject: Re: Champions 5th edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> While obliterating the stun lottery has a certain appeal, I don't think that
> making a 12 DC killing attack average 42 body would be a particularly good
> idea....
> The ratio between 'ability to do stun' and 'ability to kill things' in HERO is
> a bit low (fear my pistol; I cannot possibly kill you with it, but I can sure
> knock you unconscious!), but I think Fuzion took it a bit too far in the other
> direction.
There's a clear reason it's so low in Hero.
The system was designed to be a four color Super Hero RPG. At the time it was
first written, the
genre was mostly a 4C one where nobody died without a major plot device. Just
look at how much effort
it took to kill of Marvel Girl/Pheonix... A huge major story had to be written
around it.
These days a stray bullet from a drug deal gone bad two blocks away can kill a
major character in
some parts of the 'modern' genre. Which is where games like Fuzion come in.
I for one am fond of how hard it is to kill someone in Hero. In my 13 years as
a Hero GM I've only
seen two deaths. One in the first game I ran, when a PC shoved a pitchfork through
a priest (and got me
with my attempts at doing a heroic game rather annoyed...). The second in a
Justice Inc game when I
rolled for a villian shooting his shotgun without looking much as he fled away.
Rolled a 3 and then 13
for location. I did a GM overuling and just wounded the PC though, since the scene
didn't fit for a Hero
dying.
--
Rook
Super Hero Links Page:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
X-Sender: ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:17:14 -0600
From: Guy Hoyle <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>>If there are any extensive changes at all, I wouldn't mind seeing
>>something like (but not exactly like) the "Incomplete Character"
>rules.
>
>Yes. I would definitely like to see something like that.
>
>Some people hate the Spirit rules, I rather like them. I would like to
>see them expanded upon, possibly as part of the "Incomplete Character"
>rules, and cleaned up a bit.
I agree. The spirit rules made it possible for RuneQuest-like spirits,
which are extremely difficult to do with Desolid, Mind Control, etc., and
to retain the same feel.
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:19:16 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Filksinger wrote:
> My personal request: FIX THE FALLING RULES. They are ridiculous now.
> "The monster is right behind you. What do you do?" "I leap off this
> building." Yuck.
Speaking of which, does anybody still have issue 100 of Dragon that
had that "Bouncing" power?
My copy disapeared some time ago. I think it had three or four other new
powers as well.
> Some people hate the Spirit rules, I rather like them. I would like to
> see them expanded upon, possibly as part of the "Incomplete Character"
> rules, and cleaned up a bit.
Yeah, I like those rules myself.
--
Rook
Super Hero Links Page:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:25:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
John and Ron Prins writes:
> By that argument you could just buy Armor that 'Costs END' to simulate a
> Force Field.
If it weren't for backwards compatibility, I would want to remove the force
field power (or remove the armor power). Force field, armor, and damage
resistance really should be merged somehow.
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:26:29 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> If Champions III may be used as a reference, when one puts multiple powers
> into a single framework slot, they are treated as a single power. No
> modifiers are required for this to occour. Use of powers in such a slot is
> proportional -- if you use your EB at half power, you must use your Flash
> at half power.
Actually, this is how I run linked right now. The powers
(attacks, at least) are bought as one with the linked disadvantage tacked
on to the lesser. As is, however, I'm about ready to declare that linked
is a +-0 modifier in my campaign -- and not from the arguments here. Too
much trouble with a couple of certain rules rapists trying to get powers
"Linked" to things like block, STR usage, or being attacked. Ug.
-Tim Gilberg
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 15 Dec 1997 15:33:04 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "EB" == Eric Burns <burns@usmcug.usm.maine.edu> writes:
EB> Yes, this seems reasonable, but how would you handle powers and
EB> attributes linked to powers without varying degrees? For instance,
EB> 10pts of COM linked to Shape Shift.
If you have 30AP of Shapeshift with 10AP of COM linked to it, you must use
all 10 points of COM. What the powers are and what they are used for has
no bearing on this.
This is a good example of why I believe that powers are inherently
"linkable" without modifiers and without restrictions. Without any
limitations, one could use all 30 points of Shapeshift without using any
extra COM. With Linked, if you want to use the COM you must use the
Shapeshift, and they must be used in equal proportion.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
\ Earth, presumably from outer space.
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage o
Mail-Copies-To: never
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>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
F> Uh, I can think of a number of SFX that would allow both separate and
F> together uses of a power.
I like real-world examples: M-16A2 with grenade launcher. Use the rifle,
use the grenade launcher, or use both. The last is unwieldly, but it can
be done.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds.
\
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:36:03 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> > I can think of things which reduce costs that should be Minor (blinding,
> > for example). Also, the rule about "no point increases" desperately needs
> > to be reinstated.
> >
> If it was reinstated, how would you do the special effect of the ray gun
> ordiety that grants powers/turns normals into mutants, etc...
Agreed. While definately a power to keep a tight reign on, this
rule would start more problems than it stops. I don't look forward to a
mutant building power construction with lots of multiple Continious AIDs.
>
> > > - Always On should have a variation where certain Limitations (END Cost,
> > > Focus, etc.) represent how the Power is turned off with an effort.
> >
> > Good idea.
> >
>
> Yeah. I have several characters who have to concentrate to keep a power
> fromgoing off. It's always been a hack to do them in Hero.
Kinda. I've always taken the always on then taken the point
differential between the power with and without always on as a seperate
buy with its own limitations.
Sort of like what they did with Solitaire's Widget in the BBB, but
not quite.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:43:16 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> >You already can do this - LS: Extreme Temperatures, only vs heat(-1/2).
> >Simple enough.
>
> Not really. After all, the exact limitation is debateable. If a power is
> only half as useful, it should cost half as much - i.e. a -1 limitation for
> 'only vs heat'. How much of 'does not eat, sleep, excrete' is 'does not
> sleep'? These need to be defined, thus forming more discrete Life Support
> separations.
Maybe. I'd say most individual powers should be at the 2 pt
level, with larger categories costing 3 pts. Sort of like Weapon Fam.
> Well, that's hard to say. After all, if Mysterium the Mage and friends are
> falling off a cliff, and Mysterium wants to do a Transform to give everyone
> wings, well, he can't, because of the rule you mention. He can't turn those
> 25 point peasants into tigers (233 points according to the HERO Bestiary).
> And so on. Perhaps the introduction of some sort of 'system shock' with
> respect to Transforms on living organisms would limit the abuse. I dunno.
Maybe as a suggested optional rule, but not core rules. Keep
Transform as-is.
> Don't agree, UNLESS you're in the 'you can activate as many attack powers as
> you want' camp. If I throw up a 'flame shroud' Damage Shield and then punch
> somebody, I should expect that my DS does damage as well. After all, what's
> the diff between MY flame shrouded fist striking someone or somebody
> striking me with their fist, hitting the flame shroud?
It's just a matter of balance. Buy another power that is limited
to be usable only with your physical attacks. Perhaps you could look at
the Digital Hero pages on the Herogames page. A few weeks back there was
a wonderful article about dropping HA and using EB to add to your STR
attack. I'd suspect this would be what shows up in a later edition when
it comes to an HA-replacement.
> >I don't see the point of the "1 END" level.
>
> Me neither. Though I _would_ like to see an official modifier, 'Costs END to
> Activate, but not Maintain', though I'm not sure what it's worth. Probably a
> +1/4).
Ditto on the 1 END level. I might allow a -1/4 on the +1/2
advantage, but otherwise.
-Tim Gilberg
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:46:01 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: 5th Edition thoughts
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Heres what I would add in or change for 5th edition:
DEFENSE MANEUVER: Defense Maneuver would no longer require a half phase action.
RANGEFINDER: A new talent that allows the character to accurately determine
the space and range within inches by a perception roll. This does not
increase accuracy, buy might be useful for some powers or effects. Cost: 3
Points
UNIVERSAL TRANSLATOR: This can be considered sort of a super Linguist skill
enhancer, and as such, there are some other skill enhancers that can be
expanded as well. Each of these works in the same fashion and cost as
Universal Translator:
UNIVERSAL GEOGRAPHER: Area & Cultural Knowledge Skills.
UNIVERSAL PROFESSIONAL: Professional Skills
UNIVERSAL SCHOLAR: Knowledge Skills
UNIVERSAL SCIENTIST: Science Skills
UNIVERSAL TRAVELER: Contacts
Aids that grant powers a character does not already have are half as effective.
Thus, if Aidmaster grants Captain Speedo 10 points of Power Defense, and
Captain Speedo does not already have any, the effect rolled is halved before
applying it to the good Captain.
A -1 limitation Empathic may be taken for Aid powers, which drains an
equivalent amount of points from the character as it gives the target
(useful for heals that absorb wounds, etc).
CHANGE ENVIRONMENT: Should stay with the present structure and cost, but
lose the area, if you want an area, buy area effect on it. Increasing the
area is by the Area Effect rules thereafter, negating the 5 pt cost per
doubling.
DAMAGE RESISTANCE: extended to include mental defense, against mental KAs.
DARKNESS: loses the automatic area like CE, and increased area is bought by
the area effect.
DUPLICATION: one heals a lost duplicate as if the points were BODY or must
define a given circumstance to get the dead duplicate back... you should not
lose points for having a duplicate killed any more
ENTANGLE: may buy the defense and body separately at 5 pts each, but one may
not be more than double the other.
EXTRADIMENSIONAL MOVEMENT: If this is bought with the dimension being
'earth,' it can be bought as a sort of super teleport. The Power allows the
character to jump anywhere on earth. This teleport is only accurate within
about ten miles, and is not very effective for combat, but will allow
characters to leap thousands of miles without paying hundreds of points. .
The closest that such a jump can make is about ten miles as well. This can
also be used for stellar travel, defining the dimension as 'milky way
galaxy' or 'our dimension.' In general, the more broad the area, the less
precise the leap. Such a jump may be attempted 'blind', without seeing the
target area, and will never exit in a solid object.
more....
----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:58:01 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: 5th edition cont'd
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FORCE WALL: may be bought against defenses such as Power defense, Flash
defense, etc... but unless the advantage transparent vs physical and energy
is bought, or some defense against them is bought, any appropriate attack
will collapse it.
IMAGES: no area effected... buy an area effect on it to increase the area,
and use those rules to make it larger...
DARKNESS/IMAGES: only costs +5 points to make these powers affect the whole
sense group of the base sense affected.
MULTIFORM: shouldnt cost more for the base form... 1/5 for that form, and +5
points for each additional form that is cheaper or the same. This allows
the power to act like its supposed to.
REGENERATION: If a character has regeneration, he does not bleed even if
taken below 0 BOD. Even slow regeneration is immensely fast healing, and
wounds will close faster than bleeding will take effect.
SHAPESHIFT: A PC with 40 points of Shapeshift of an appropriate special
effect (plasticity, for example) does not have to purchase Desolidification
to be able to slide under normal doors, flow through air vents, etc. A good
rule of thumb is that if such a character can fit his hand through a given
opening, he can use his power to travel through it.
MINIMUM COSTS: Eliminate all minimum costs, except for Telekinesis, Summon,
and powers that are bought in blocks like Shapeshift... you get what you pay
for, just set NNDs to a minimum defense, not its mere existence
SUMMON: add a +1 advantage that the summoned creature is freindly, not a
slave, but not hostile, and is likely to give assistance.
TRANSFORMATION: Any transform that gives the target more points than it
started with can only grant real points of powers or disadvantages equal to
the most effect the transformation dice could roll (30 points for a 5D6
transform).
TUNNELING: Tunneling can be bought in separate elements, 2 points for each
inch of Tunneling, and 3 points per defense tunneled through.
more...
----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:03:46 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Germania!
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> From: Guy Hoyle <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
>
> I have fiendish plans for the PCs in my Pulp campaign regarding Germania,
> that sturdy embodiment of Germanic womanhood from GAC. However, I hate the
> name. Anybody have a better one for this amply-built refugee from a
> Wagnerian opera?
>
You're kidding right ? How about Valkyrie ?
Curt
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Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:06:33 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: 5th edition, contd
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a suggested new power:
IMMORTALITY: With this power the PC does not die when reduced to a negative
number of BOD equal to their full BOD score. They may be reduced to
immobile and helpless goo by a sufficient amount of BOD (-2xBOD), but will
heal over time. This does not reduce the unpleasant affects of starvation,
drowning, or dismemberment; powers such as life support and regeneration are
required to deal with these effects. If the character can be killed by some
means (such as decapitation, a stake through the heart, fire, etc.), the
power is 20 points. If there is no way to actually kill the character, the
power costs 30 points.
HOLE IN THE MIDDLE: this should be redefined as making the power not affect
FREINDS in an area like a hex, when a power affects you adversely to use,
this is called a limitation....
SIDE EFFECTS: At the present cost, very low power effects are severely
punished by this advantage. Thus, the chart is slightly different:
-1/4 ½ the power level, minimum 20 PTS
-1/2 equal to power level, minimum 50 PTS
CHARGES: No number of charges is more than a +1/2 Advantage. Even
thousands of charges is more limited than spending no endurance, also a
+1/2 advantage. The exception to this is autofire, which has double cost
for the Reduced END advantage; for autofire attacks, the charges advantage
can go as high as +1.
AREA EFFECT CONE: instead of having range and costing +1, this costs +1/2
and has no range... ranged cones are really odd, certainly not the default,
I would think.
EXPLOSION: Explosions may be defined as Cones (losing 1 DC per 2") or Lines
(losing 1 DC per 4"); this allows the simulation of shaped charges, claymore
mines, etc.
AREA EFFECT (RING): This is a hollow circle 1 hex thick, with an inner
radius the same size as Radius. The +1/4 Advantage may double either the
radius or the thickness. +1/2 advantage.
INVISIBLE POWER EFFECTS: Some powers are not as expensive to make invisible.
Most non-combat powers cost much less to make them invisible.
+1/4 to make them invisible to the two common senses, and a total of +1/2 to
render the power to all senses
this one makes some people rip out their hair, but after playtesting is a
great addition, trust me:
IGNORES DAMAGE REDUCTION: This advantage is bought on attacks, and the
damage that exceeds defenses ignores Damage Reduction the target has bought.
This can be very brutal to a person who relies on Damage Reduction like
affects desolidification can be to the desolidified character; consider this
to have a magnifying glass. +1/2 advantage
SEEKING: With this advantage, the attack will continue to attempt to hit a
target until it succeeds. It is similar to continuous, in that the effect
will act on it’s own, on the attacker’s phases, but different in that it
will only take effect once. The attack is launched and the attacker must
guide the attack, taking a half phase rolling to hit each phase until the
attack succeeds. The power costs END only when first launched, and requires
the attacker to be able to perceive the target for it to hit. If the
attacker cannot see the target any longer, the seeker will launch into a
straight line like a normal attack that missed, and stop when it hits a
surface or at it’s maximum range. The direction traveled may be determined
randomly if not clear, and as such may return to the attacker! For a +1/2
advantage, the attacker can switch targets on his phase, choosing another
person for the seeker to go after. Like Continuous, the attacker cannot
launch another attack while the seeker is in effect. The seeking power may
be shut off at any time by the attacker. With Uncontrolled, this power
becomes very frightening, and with Autofire, it becomes horrific. Autofire
must be bought with the extra cost if this advantage is used. Consider this
advantage to have a stop sign next to it.
Seeking is best used for gunboat style ‘mask and unmask’ type of attacks,
and with limited uses. A charge does not begin to use it’s power until it
actually hits, so the player does not need to buy continuous charges to use
seeker.
Base level: +1/4 advantage
Can change targets: +1/2 advantage
sorry thats kinda long, but its hard to shorten
more...
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Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:14:00 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: 5th edition cont'd
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VARIABLE ADVANTAGE: The cost for Variable Advantage in the book is listed at
+1 in addition to the maximum advantage that can be used. This only results
in negating the use of this at lower advantage levels, and making it
incredibly efficient at higher levels. Instead, the cost is double the
advantage maximum that can be used (so if the power can have up to +3/4
advantages on it, the cost is +1 1/2, two times 3/4). cost=2 times maximum
advantage
Drains can be targeted at EC and Multipower control costs, lowering the
maximum power of EVERY power in the structure... this makes people a little
more wary about buying them in my game, but works well for Genocide and such.
YOUTH: like age, a 5 point disad, with some stat limits... for lil kids, its
more of a limit to be young than old in many cases
ATTACKS FROM SURPRISE: Rather than the rule that ambush attacks doing double
stun, change this to CON being halved for purposes of being stunned. It is
easy to be stunned by an attack you don't expect (ever run into a door by
surprise?), but rarely does this result in unconsciousness.
PULLING YOUR PUNCH: This is attempted at -1 OCV per 5D6, not 3D6.
BEING KNOCKED OUT: As written, the unconsciousness levels are by an easy
formula of 10 point blocks. This is simpler to work with, but is not as
realistic as it could be. For greater believability, the system used is
similar, but the first level (up to -10 = recover each phase) is now up to
-CON, so a victim with a 23 CON would have to be taken below -24 stun (more
than their 23 CON) to move to the next level of unconsciousness. From that
point on, it is the standard 10 point steps. This helps represent that it
is harder to put down a very tough guy and make him stay.
This one is a really good idea:
BLOCK: A block maneuver as now listed is pathetically easy. The system now
used is somewhat more challenging, and represents the fact that a more
expertly executed attack is more difficult to avoid. The Block roll is
attempted against the DCV the aggressor hit, so if A attacks B, and hits a 8
DCV, B must make a block roll that would hit an 8 DCV in order to block that
attack. This has the effect of making blocks much more difficult to
achieve, thus the penalties on block and cost for martial art element block
is in discussion.
more...
----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:15:57 EST
Subject: Re: My BBB's falling apart!
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< when a company prints a book it has to way several factors, >>
I meant, of course, that it has to *weight* several factors. Oi! I need to
get more sleep!
Btw, if anyone's BBB has fallen apart, I'd be glad to replace it with a CD
hardback (sans HeroMaker). All we ask is that you send us the old book (*all*
of it, please) and then pay for shipping the new books to you ($3). Sound
fair?
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:15:58 EST
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat
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<< >Any DEX 29-31 martial artist will have a 15- Acrobatics and since the
>average of 3d6 is 11, routinely get +2 to his CV *every* Phase. For only
>3 points! >>
::Sigh:: I forget that some folks don't read between the lines. ;) Has thou
forgotten that the GM contr4ols such things as modifiers for combat
situations, as in a heft penalty to the roll?? ;) I think a -3 is fair.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:16:01 EST
Subject: Re: Genre Books
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<< How much of this hinges soley on the success of San Angelo? >>
A significant portion. I thought we'd already covered that. ;)
<< I mean if the only people who buy San Angelo are the one's who heard how
cool it was here on this list, would that stop the printing of a future 'Star
Hero' or whatever? >>
We're not handling Star Hero. ;) But to answering your question, I assure
you that a lot more folks than just those on this list have heard of San
Angelo. We've had ads running in Shadis magazine (20,000 copies circ.), the
Games Quarterly Catalog (which goes to 4,000 retailers), been promoting
heavily on the net and our web site, and we're also running an ad in an
upcoming issue of Astro City (10s of thousands of readers). If you're trying
to convince me that no one's heard of it... they're not paying attention. ;)
Help spread the word.
<< A lot of people don't go for 'campaign world books' from what I myself
have seen. >>
And a lot of people do.
<< Do you Mark know what, outside of the BBB or Hero System Rulebook was
the best selling Hero book? And if you do know, are you willing to tell us?
(not that I can think of a reason you wouldn't be.) >>
I can only tell you what has been the best selling books for *us* (since
last July). I'll look that info up later when I have time.
<< I know I plan to buy San Angelo. But I can also say I get mixed results
when I mention it. Anything from 'I don't buy campaign worlds' to 'it's on my
shopping list' to 'oh? is Mark spamming that again?' >>
The proof will be in the proverbia pudding. Once the book comes out late
next month, then we'll see what the reactions are then.
<< But if it doesn't will that stop the presses on the other, non related hero
items?>>
We'll be evaluating our position on publishing 4th Ed material after we see
how the first few books do. I realize that sales will be coming in for a few
months, and that folks also want to see how we *support* the line. Fear not.
We won't be slamming the doors if we don't sell a million copies in the first
month of release.
<< Are they being judged together or seperate? >>
I really don't want to start going into minutae here. We are a business and
we have to make business decisions. I think the information we've provided
about our rationale is more than most companies would discuss.
I'd feel less comfortable in discussing this any further, primarily because
I want to avoid the "GRG isn't going to print any more Hero books!" myth that
would eventually start being propogated on the net.
Suffice it to say that we will be keeping an eye on sales. For now, we have
plans for several new 4th Ed books next year, and several more if those do
decent sales.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:16:10 EST
Subject: Re: Champions
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I'm afraid I cannot address any more comments regarding a 5th Edition. It
seems I misspoke earlier. I welcome your comments about what you'd like to see
in future Hero System products from Gold Rush Games, however.
Thank you.
Mark Arsenault
Gold Rush Games
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:16:15 EST
Subject: Re: Gold Rush Games Mailing List???
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<< ...is there some way to get on a mailing list that would send out product
info? Release Dates? Ads? I'd prefer snail mail, e-mail is ok, and yes, I
could always go to the web site. I was just curious. I know I could always
receive info here on the mailing list, >>
We can add you to our PR list, but we generally make announcements in all
applicable forums (AOL, newsgroups, our web site, etc.
<< but when I go to the gaming shop I go to and say, they said on the InterNet
that this is out, they look at me clueless, usually, because I'm rushing to
the store before the release day. >>
The next time you rush in there and they look at you clueless, tell them to
get out their copy of Games Quarterly Catalog and look up either "Gold Rush
Games" or "Champions." No joke. We've had a two page product listing for over
a year now.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:16:17 EST
Subject: Re: PART
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<< You know, when I originally wrote that, I was gonna make a comment about
how *you* stole *my* idea! So, I have no other choice but to have my
lawyers (Dewey, Cheatum & Howe) call you lawyers. Unless, of course, you
want to settle out of court and avoid the embarrsing publicity of a Judge
Ito monitored court battle. >>
Go ahead. We'll simply use the flux to go back in time and convince all your
lawyers (as children) to become nurses and bus drivers and such! Bwah hah hah
hah hah..!!
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:16:18 EST
Subject: Re: Gold Rush Games Mailing List???
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< "doesn't exist, Hero games went out of business." >>
That's too bad (and ignorant. They must not want to sell to you too badly.
Perhaps you could send us their mailaing address so we can put them on our
mailing list?
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:16:21 EST
Subject: Re: Special Offers to the list
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<< No darnit! I refuse to get a discount! In fact, I'm going to pay double, no
make that triple, heck. TEN times the cover price!!!! >>
I think you have us mixed up with another company... ;)
Mark @ GRG
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:19:28 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: 5th Edition concluded
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Last but not least, a simple way of handling damage. There are two damage
structures, normal and killing. Each one has a ranged and a STR adds damage
element. Thus, structure them like this:
NORMAL ATTACK: 5 points per die, defined either as ranged or STR
adds damage.
KILLING ATTACK: 15 points per die, defined as either ranged or STR
adds damage.
+1/2: add ranged or STR adds damage as an element to the attack.
voila, consistent, simple, fits the damage class structure, and works with
the present system.
----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:35:41 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 5th edition, contd
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On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Christopher Taylor wrote:
> SIDE EFFECTS: At the present cost, very low power effects are severely
> punished by this advantage. Thus, the chart is slightly different:
>
> -1/4 ½ the power level, minimum 20 PTS
> -1/2 equal to power level, minimum 50 PTS
I was wondering about a variation on Side Effects, where the power affects
not the character but his environment. For example, you crank up your
mega-chi Aid and create a minor shockwave centered on your person. People
get knocked over, your surroundings get wrecked, etc.
> AREA EFFECT CONE: instead of having range and costing +1, this costs +1/2
> and has no range... ranged cones are really odd, certainly not the default,
> I would think.
I agree. I was also wondering about trying to build the really big
cone/reduced by range affect for things like sonic shouts and flameblasts.
Would there be away to ignore the max length of the cone in a case like
this?
> AREA EFFECT (RING): This is a hollow circle 1 hex thick, with an inner
> radius the same size as Radius. The +1/4 Advantage may double either the
> radius or the thickness. +1/2 advantage.
We developed something like this to simulate certain wilder martial arts
tricks. It was no-range, had a hole in the middle, and affected all of
your adjacent hexes. Base cost was +3/4.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Subject: Re: Germania!
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 97 16:48:04 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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On 12/15/97 3:10 PM, Guy Hoyle (ghoyle1@airmail.net) Said:
>I have fiendish plans for the PCs in my Pulp campaign regarding Germania,
>that sturdy embodiment of Germanic womanhood from GAC. However, I hate the
>name. Anybody have a better one for this amply-built refugee from a
>Wagnerian opera?
>
Brunhilde ?
Valkyrie ?
| David A. Fair
Think Different | SDS International
| dfair@sdslink.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:48:24 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Subject: What it sees...
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Okay, I've started my adaption of the cast of "Big Trouble in Little
China". I plan on presenting David Lo Pan, Egg Shen, Jack Burton, Wang
Chi, the Storms, Lo Pan's two monsters and a generic template for a Chang
Sing and a Wing Cong.
Now, I have two questions:
1) The Guardian's of power or "what it sees Lo Pan knows". This would be
a simple Mind Link, right? Or should I go with some strange form of
Clairsentience Useable by Others? And how about the Lo Pan speaks through
the Guardian trick? Is this a part of Mind Link, or Images from the
Guardian?
2) Egg and Lo Pan's magic duel with the glowing Chinese warriors fighiting
in the air. Any suggestios as to what that was? I thought some sort of
mental combat, but it looked to last several phases...
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:50:03 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
> << >Any DEX 29-31 martial artist will have a 15- Acrobatics and since the
> >average of 3d6 is 11, routinely get +2 to his CV *every* Phase. For only
> >3 points! >>
>
> ::Sigh:: I forget that some folks don't read between the lines. ;) Has thou
> forgotten that the GM contr4ols such things as modifiers for combat
> situations, as in a heft penalty to the roll?? ;) I think a -3 is fair.
Then such a ruling had better be clearly stated in the text for the skill.
As it stands, I wouldn't use it.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
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Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:57:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Dennis C Hwang <dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu>
Subject: Re: Germania!
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Guy Hoyle wrote:
> I have fiendish plans for the PCs in my Pulp campaign regarding Germania,
> that sturdy embodiment of Germanic womanhood from GAC. However, I hate the
> name. Anybody have a better one for this amply-built refugee from a
> Wagnerian opera?
Well, you mentioned it yourself; why not go straight to the source?
Brunhilde is evocative (as the valkyrie), or Sieglinde (Sigurd's sister, I
believe) might work as well. There was also Queen Gutrune (from the
Siegfried part of the cycle), but she didn't have a really major role
aside from as a plot device.
I don't recall the names of the three Rhinemaidens, though, or those of
any of the other valkyries. Sorry. ;)
--Dennis
*************************************************************
* dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu * xenopathologist at large! *
*************************************************************
* Hey, I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons & *
* Dragons and not learn a little something about courage. *
* *
* --Blaine Faulkner *
* "Jose Chung's From Outer Space" *
*************************************************************
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:25:04 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
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At 09:31 AM 12/15/97 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>> - Extra Limbs should go back to having a cost per limb. My own
>> structure is 5 points for two arms, with reduced costs for lesser utility
>> (3 points for one arm, 3 for a pair of tentacles, 1 for a single tentacle
>> or prehensile tail).
>
>That was one of the silliest parts of the previous edition of Champions; I
>certainly have no desire to see it return. Building the 100-armed giants
>of Greek mythology should _not_ mandate a Power on the order of 1000
>points.
But should it cost the same as merely having a prehensile tail?
Would 5 points per 2X arms (with appropriate limitations for
intermediate numbers or non-digital limbs) be better? Those 100-armed
giants would then spend about 28 points for Extra Limbs.
>> - Force Field and Force Wall should have Flash Defense, Mental Defense,
>> and Power Defense methods built right in.
>
>Force Wall, maybe. Force Field would be pointless. (Just buy them Costs
>END.)
And add on Damage Reduction for them, which Costs END? (One of the
Ultimate books introduced the idea of Killing Attacks, AVLD, Does BODY,
which would call for these Defenses being Resistant.)
>> - Hand-to-Hand Attack should *not* be omitted; this would leave us with
>> the old kludge of "+X STR, Only for Damage." Use Opal's version instead.
>
>The old kludge works fine IMO.
For your campaign, I accept it; but (as someone else pointed out) one
could also buy Force Field as Armor that Costs END. Sometimes a unique
power is just easier than a complex construct, especially if it's
representing something fairly common.
>> - Instant Change should be scaled. (My scale is 5 pts = instant, 4 pts
>> = half Phase, 3 pts = Phase, 2 pts = Turn, 1 pt = minute, normal = 5
>> minutes, with all costs doubled for "any clothing.")
>
>What's the point? Just use Extra Time to simulate this.
Same as previous response.
>> - Life Support should have some of its elements able to be broken down
>> even further, like 2 points for being immune to *either* heat *or* cold.
>
>You already can do this - LS: Extreme Temperatures, only vs heat(-1/2).
>Simple enough.
>
>> Also, 1-2 points for retarded aging is a cool idea.
>
>Same comment.
Again, same response. :-]
And again, for all of these I see your reasoning, and I don't think
you're being at all unreasonable. My suggestions just make character
building a tad simpler.
>> - Transform should be more specifically described as well, especially in
>> terms of what constitutes Cosmetic, Minor, and Major Transforms. (I tend
>> to go with this: if it doesn't affect the character sheet, it's Cosmetic;
>> if it shifts points around on the sheet or alters specific Powers but
>> doesn't change the totals, it's Minor; if it changes point totals, it's
>> Major.)
>
>I can think of things which reduce costs that should be Minor (blinding,
>for example). Also, the rule about "no point increases" desperately needs
>to be reinstated.
I'm with you on the point increases, to an extent. I'd actually limit
the increase (*or* decrease) in points for a Major Transform to BODY x
1d6-1 (sound familiar? You could even apply Increased STUN Multiple).
>> - Explosion should be +3/4 so it doesn't cost the same as AE: One Hex.
>
>The increased precision given by AE: One Hex balances the somewhat-
>increased damage of Explosion. Leave them the same.
What increased precision? Both are against DCV 3.
>> - Damage Shield should be clarified so that *any* significant contact,
>> including the character with DS making an attack against the target, will
>> cause damage.
>
>Rather, they should reiterate the fact that the character with DS making
>an attack against the target _doesn't_ cause damage. If you want to do
>that, buy a normal attack version.
Why? In the source material (comics), a character surrounded by
something that is representable by a Damage Shield will do the damage no
matter who initiates the contact. Rogue, the Human Torch, and the female
Firebrand are the only ones I can think of offhand with Damage Shield
powers, and that's how it seems to work.
In fact, the only Special Effects that I can think of where a Damage
Shield would work only if someone else initiates contact are unusual cases
that are better represented with a Limitation.
>> - Reduced END should be half END for +1/4, 1 END for +1/2, 0 END for
>> +3/4, and Persistent for +1.
>
>I don't see the point of the "1 END" level.
It's a sort of "minimal effort" thing. Maybe my 12d6 Energy Blast
doesn't take up a full 3 END to use (the 1/2 END level), but does take some
effort. (It's a lot less awkward than buying 0 END on all but the first 2d6.)
>I'd also codify the difference between Persistent and Uncontrolled. (My
>view: Persistent makes a Constant Power Persistent (duh:)), Uncontrolled
>makes a Constant Power Instant.)
I'm not sure I understand this, but we can work it out later. :-]
>> - Extra Time should specify whether the time listed is including or in
>> addition to the half-phase needed to launch an attack with a Power.
>
>Better, they should include both the current version of Extra Time (a
>delay before the Power can be activated, but during which you can do other
>things) and the old version (actually increasing the type (or number) of
>action(s) you need to expend to activate the Power).
Agreed -- that *is* better.
>> - Linked should be fixed and specific. My recommendation is to go with
>> the basic, existing -1/2 bonus to make both Powers used in proportion,
>> essentially being treated as a single Power for most purposes. A character
>> could also have a "one-way" Link, letting one Power be used up to the level
>> that the other is, for -1/4. Linked should still be applicable only to the
>> smaller Power (but please specify that this means Active Points).
>
>I agree, more or less. The current version of Linked, with a
>proportionality restriction added on ("this Power can only be used when
>Power X is used, at up to the same proportion of total power at which that
>one is used") should be demoted to -1/4. Add another -1/4 Limitation which
>states "this Power automatically goes off when Power X is used, at
>proportionate power level at least equal to that at which Power X is
>used". Combine these 2 and you have a -1/2 Limitation which works in the
>same way that most people currenlty play Linked.
I think that's roughly the same thing that I suggested; only the tags
were different.
>> - DNPC should allow +5 points for every 2X individuals on one Roll.
>> Also allow DNCP Rolls of 5 or less (Rarely) for +0 points, and 17 or less
>> (Constantly) for +20 points.
>> - Hunted, similarly, should allow Hunted Rolls of 5 or less (Rarely) for
>> -5 points, and 17 or less (Constantly) for +15 points.
>
>Maybe, but I'd put a caveat stating that the 17- level shouldn't be used
>unless the character in question is focal to the campaign. 14- is already
>really, really high.
100% Agreed here. The 17- DNPC should be someone who is basically
always around (like Steve Urkel), and the 17- Hunter is the vengeful ninja
that seriously needs to get a life.
>> - Secret Identity should become simply Secret, with scales similar to
>> those used for Physical and Psychological Limitations.
>
>Would certainly improve its cross-genre utility.
Cross-genre, nothing; I've seen Champions characters, PCs even, who had
"secrets" that weren't exactly "Secret Identities." They were worked in as
either Secret IDs anyway, or as Psych Limits. I just figured to split the
difference.
---
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:28:49 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 11:32 AM 12/15/97 -0800, Rook wrote:
>> > - Extra Limbs should go back to having a cost per limb. My own
>> > structure is 5 points for two arms, with reduced costs for lesser utility
>> > (3 points for one arm, 3 for a pair of tentacles, 1 for a single tentacle
>> > or prehensile tail).
>>
>> That was one of the silliest parts of the previous edition of Champions; I
>> certainly have no desire to see it return. Building the 100-armed giants
>> of Greek mythology should _not_ mandate a Power on the order of 1000
>> points.
>
> Agreed. Since each limb in champs does not give an extra attack,
having one
>extraor one million extra makes no noticable effect on the game. If it was 1
>point per limb Prehensile
>Hair would either
>A: get VERY expensive.
>B: be forced to all move together as 'one item', killing the 'medusa
effect' for
>all but multi-million point
> characters.
How about 5 points per 2X limbs, Costs END?
>> > - Flash, as mentioned elsewhere, should be 5 points per die, with each
>> > BODY pip of Flash working for 1 segment. (It makes Flash Defense more
>> > balanced.)
>>
>> Sounds okay.
>
> And / or raise the cost of Flash Defense to 5 points per point of
defense.
Ick. That would be prohibitive, especially for Flash AVLDs. At worst,
5 points per defense, and only if the 5/die Flash isn't implemented.
>> > - Linked should be fixed and specific. My recommendation is to go
with
>> I agree, more or less. The current version of Linked, with a
>
> Kind of a moot issue since I can use 'limited' to do it however I
>want already.
With that attitude, one could eliminate all of the existing Limitations
and just use Limited Power for everything.
Heck, if you really want to get right down to it, you can use "Linked"
to do it however you want now, and you always could.
Codifying these things really makes the game much easier for strangers
and newcomers, though.
---
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:30:34 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 02:38 PM 12/15/97 -0500, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>>> - Reduced END should be half END for +1/4, 1 END for +1/2, 0 END for
>>> +3/4, and Persistent for +1.
>>
>>I don't see the point of the "1 END" level.
>
>Me neither. Though I _would_ like to see an official modifier, 'Costs END to
>Activate, but not Maintain', though I'm not sure what it's worth. Probably a
>+1/4).
I'd give it +/- 1/4 also. (Plus or minus depending, of course, on
whether it's applied as an Advantage or as a Limitation.)
---
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Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:36:46 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition thoughts
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At 12:46 PM 12/15/97 -0800, Christopher Taylor wrote:
>Heres what I would add in or change for 5th edition:
>
>DEFENSE MANEUVER: Defense Maneuver would no longer require a half phase
action.
Nah, just use the version from TUMA.
>RANGEFINDER: A new talent that allows the character to accurately determine
>the space and range within inches by a perception roll. This does not
>increase accuracy, buy might be useful for some powers or effects. Cost: 3
>Points
I really like this one, if only because I think it was originally my
idea on the list. ;-]
>Aids that grant powers a character does not already have are half as
effective.
>Thus, if Aidmaster grants Captain Speedo 10 points of Power Defense, and
>Captain Speedo does not already have any, the effect rolled is halved before
>applying it to the good Captain.
>
>A -1 limitation Empathic may be taken for Aid powers, which drains an
>equivalent amount of points from the character as it gives the target
>(useful for heals that absorb wounds, etc).
I agree with both of these; the latter especially if the widely
recommended doubling of the cost of Aid take splace.
>CHANGE ENVIRONMENT: Should stay with the present structure and cost, but
>lose the area, if you want an area, buy area effect on it. Increasing the
>area is by the Area Effect rules thereafter, negating the 5 pt cost per
>doubling.
>
>DARKNESS: loses the automatic area like CE, and increased area is bought by
>the area effect.
So what's the point/utility of non-AE CE and Darkness?
>DUPLICATION: one heals a lost duplicate as if the points were BODY or must
>define a given circumstance to get the dead duplicate back... you should not
>lose points for having a duplicate killed any more
Good idea. Permanently dead Duplicates should take a Limitation.
---
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Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:43:55 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
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At 12:19 PM 12/15/97 -0800, Rook wrote:
>> Some people hate the Spirit rules, I rather like them. I would like to
>> see them expanded upon, possibly as part of the "Incomplete Character"
>> rules, and cleaned up a bit.
>
> Yeah, I like those rules myself.
Same here, though I agree that they need to be cleaned up a bit.
One thing I've done is introduce Spirit Defense as a Power, rather than
have Spirit-based Powers just work on good ol' Power Defense.
---
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Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:48:33 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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At 01:05 PM 12/15/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
>
>>> I would suggest that that particlur rule was placed to stop people
>>> saying "I have a 3d6 flash. I will link my 12d6 energy blast to it.
>>> -1/2 on the energy blast, thanks"
>
>BG> Precisely. So how would you work such a construct where the Flash
>BG> always went off with the EB?
>
>If Champions III may be used as a reference, when one puts multiple powers
>into a single framework slot, they are treated as a single power. No
>modifiers are required for this to occour. Use of powers in such a slot is
>proportional -- if you use your EB at half power, you must use your Flash
>at half power.
But if I put the "Linked" Limitation on that exact same Flash, then I
can use the EB without it, right? Or am I missing something here?
---
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Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:54:14 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Kurt's comments
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz
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At 06:04 PM 12/14/97 -0500, GoldRushG wrote:
><< Well, basically i'd ask us all to recognise the difference between genuine
>heros who can make a difference(even in a gritty setting) and joke-heros who
>don't really stand a chance. . . .. >>
>
> I don't understand the reference here. Please have pity on me. I read too
>darned many messages and threads a day to remember them all! :D What does this
>have to do with Kurt Busiek's comments about San Angelo?
>
> Mark @ GRG
>
No, not san angelo. .. i meant the genre in general. I apologise
if i was misunderstood
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:56:13 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Slipperiness
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At 12:21 PM 12/15/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>> This is what I currently have down for the effect of a Slick. Tell me
>>what you think.
>>
>> If the Transform is successful, then the ground becomes slippery.
>>Characters and vehicles using Ground Movement must make a DEX Roll at -3
>>(or a Combat Vehicle Operations or similar Roll at no penalty) when
>>entering the hex or lose control (see Chapter Three for more details on
>>this). Even if this Roll is successful, a second Roll at -2 (in addition
>>to any other Modifiers) must be made if the character or vehicle attempts
>>to accelerate, decelerate, or turn while in the affected area.
>> At the GM's option, every BODY pip above the 16 needed to successfully
>>enact the Transform, up to the maximum that can be rolled on the dice, adds
>>another -1 to the DEX or Combat Vehicle Operations Rolls.
>
>I think this beats any previously published solution to this slippery
>problem, but I still have a few qualms with it. While Transform seems like
>the most "legal" way to go about creating the effect, you're stuck with the
>power working vs. BODY. With this approach, it's easier to make dirt or
>sand slippery than to affect a paved or metal surface - five minutes of
>rain will prove that wrong.
Ah, but the rain has a lot of Cumulative attacks built up, eh? :-]
>Your effects for the power make sense; I'll assume you deal with what it
>means for a running character to "lose control" in Chapter Three. I would
>like to see some mention of defenses against a slippery surface - does
>Clinging stop it? Is it entirely dependent on SFX? If you're feeling really
>ambitious, you might try to build studded snow tires.
Yes, losing control is in Chapter Three. It's essentially the same as
what' in An Eye for An Eye.
As for Clinging, good point. It would probably depend on the Special
Effect, and possibly warrant a -1/4 Limitation.
>Really, though, I think slipperiness needs to be a power. Creating a new
>power probably isn't within the scope of TUSV, so whatever you use will
>necessarily be a bit of a kludge.
I disagree here, but not strongly. If Slipperiness was brought out as a
Power, I'd probably use it, and might even like it. But I don't think it's
that necessary because it's not really that common.
---
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From: "Matt Korth" <korthmat@cps.msu.edu>
Organization: I don't think so, Tim.
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:58:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Open Apology
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> >If you feel you really have to flame me for opening up a religious debate on
> >the list, go right ahead -- I deserve it (*sigh*). But at least know that I
> >realize I did make a mistake, and I'm sorry for it. The only religious
> >arguments that belong on this list are Linked debates (*duck*).
>
> Speaking for myself, at in all probability for other Christians on the
> list as well, you can consider yourself forgiven. :-]
...unless you start the GLD again... :)
--M
--
korthmat@cps.msu.edu http://www.cps.msu.edu/~korthmat
*** People who send me UBE/UCE will be crucified. ***
"Believe me, Mike, I calculated the odds of this succeeding
versus the odds that I was doing something incredibly stupid...
and I went ahead anyway." --Crow, _MST3K: The Movie_
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:27:20 -0500
From: "Kevin J. McClain" <KevLord@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: KevLord@worldnet.att.net
Organization: Courts of Kirkwood
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: My BBB's falling apart!
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
My BBB hasn't started to disintegrate yet. I have sealed it in a bag. I can't get
myself to part with it. Maybe it is the sentimental value of having it
autographed by Rob Bell, Steve Peterson, Aaron Allston, and George MacDonald. "Be
a Hero" Rob wrote. Words I GM by to this day!
Kev
GoldRushG wrote:
> << when a company prints a book it has to way several factors, >>
>
> I meant, of course, that it has to *weight* several factors. Oi! I need to
> get more sleep!
>
> Btw, if anyone's BBB has fallen apart, I'd be glad to replace it with a CD
> hardback (sans HeroMaker). All we ask is that you send us the old book (*all*
> of it, please) and then pay for shipping the new books to you ($3). Sound
> fair?
>
> Mark @ GRG
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 23:35:29 +0000
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: CHAR: KARZA DRONES
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Michael Surbrook wrote:
> > >> > +2 SPEED, Only for Job related actions or to fire weapon.
> > >> Arg. Am I the only one who thinks SPD 'only for X' should be outlawed in
> > the
> > Yes, you are the only one. See the Hydra in the Hero Bestiary for details.
I avoid extra speed for characters like a plague.
For one Hydra I wrote up I did each head a seperate creature with a
dependance on the body. That way if the body took enough damage the heads
would
die off. Though I also had the heads stagger their speed. I think each head
was
a two speed, but #1 would go on 1 & 7, #2 would on 2 & 8, etc...
Looked cumbersome, but worked out well for me.
> > >Egyptoid: Please put your costs down for disads and the like. I'm curious
> > what
> > >you consider to be the fair costs.
> > Horse-$#%@. I get enough flames from people who think I write the craziest
> > characters going. I'm not going to add numbers and invite bombardment from
> > you number crunchers as well. I prefer to run a role-playing game, not a
> > lesson in
>
> I don't number crunch. I put down point values so people can understand
> how I built something and get a quick assessment of the character's power
> level. Would *you* buy a Hero Suppliment that just listed stats and
> powers with no total costs?
I number crunch, but I critize based on concept or design. I just like seeing
how something was built.
-Mark Lemming
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:39:49 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 02:38 AM 12/14/97 -0800, Captain Spith wrote:
>> One other note. Keep in mind that, primarily because of financial
>> considerations, we are looking at printing the Hero System rules book
>> separately, with Champions being a genre book. Champions would have the super
>> power rules in there, as well as a *much* better treatment of the genre,
>> examples, no "official universe" inside (rather examples and notes on creating
>> several different types, etc., but the Hero System "core" rules would be in
>> the Hero System rules book.
>
> Great! Some would look at it as forcing a gamer to buy two books,
>but it makes sense to seperate core rules from genre-specific stuff. On
>the other hand, it would make it vital to have extensive and precise
>examples in the rulebook to be SURE to cover all genres; super-heroes
>using powers raise different questions than gunslingers using guns. (at
>least they often do).
>
Sawwy to be a wet blanket, but that would be kinda hideously deforming
and limiting the whole system for no good reason. All the mechanics in
one place. Period.
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:40:49 +1000
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz
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At 06:03 PM 12/14/97 -0500, GoldRushG wrote:
><< Major Mistake. The powers rules have many applications outside of
>Super Powers. I think the Hero system rulebook should be the same size as
>it was in 4th edition.>>
>
> My bad. I think the plan *was* (or, rather, *is*) to have all the character
>creation rules (including the "powers") in the Hero System Rules book, and
>treat the Champions book as the campaign book (perhaps with a few extra
>goodies, and certainly plenty of clear examples!).
>
> Mark @ GRG
>
yay! *g* Best to focus on interpretations- i.e. how to sue duper-talents,
good ways to do wierd powers, ect. .
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 23:41:59 +0000
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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GoldRushG wrote:
>
> << As a house rule, I'd allow the warning shot to not take anytime, but the
> End
> cost or charge would be spent. There are times when following the letter of
> the rules can be a pain.>>
>
> Why? Can't a PC spread his EB, or use *up to* his max dice in the blast? Why
> not let him use *less*? Say, a 1/2 die or 1 Pip Energy Blast, effectively
> making it a 0 END "show of force?"
>
> Man, some of you guys are harsh GMs! <LOL>
>
> Mark @ GRG
If they're trying for a show of force they might want to show something
other than minimal effect. A spread blast would be fine.
-Mark
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:43:28 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: That's What I Want...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 10:46 PM 12/14/97 -0500, John Prins wrote:
>>PLUS, look at the costs involved. Absorption = 5 points/die. Aid = 5 points
>per >die. I'm paying (currently) AS MUCH as I am for Aid, while getting:
>>
>>A.) The same upper limit
>>B.) No personal control over the increase of my 'aided' power
>>C.) Increases dependant on the strength of the attack
>>D.) END free Aid.
>
>Oh yeah, I forgot:
>
>E.) 1/3th the amount of CPs gained than Aid (in general, you roll 3-4 per
>die of Aid, but only 1 CP per die of Absorption).
>
Okay, I hope this doesn't sound too stupid. I was always under the
impression that you rolled the dice, counted the *total* and used that as
the BODY able to be absorbed... not the *BODY* total on the dice.
I guess my way gives you even more power, huh?
Can someone explain it to me, please?
- Jerry
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:48:33 -0500
From: "Kevin J. McClain" <KevLord@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: KevLord@worldnet.att.net
Organization: Courts of Kirkwood
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: What it sees...
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Michael Surbrook wrote:
> Okay, I've started my adaption of the cast of "Big Trouble in Little
> China". I plan on presenting David Lo Pan, Egg Shen, Jack Burton, Wang
> Chi, the Storms, Lo Pan's two monsters and a generic template for a Chang
> Sing and a Wing Cong.
>
> Now, I have two questions:
>
> 1) The Guardian's of power or "what it sees Lo Pan knows". This would be
> a simple Mind Link, right? Or should I go with some strange form of
> Clairsentience Useable by Others? And how about the Lo Pan speaks through
> the Guardian trick? Is this a part of Mind Link, or Images from the
> Guardian?
I like the idea of giving Lo Pan Clairsentience. Link Images(perhaps indirect?)
with it for comunications. As far as Wang attacking it, The guardian seemed
hurt but Lo Pan was OK. Maybe a limitation on the power that damage dispells
the effect.
Kev
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:50:53 +1000
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editi
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At 12:22 AM 12/14/97 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote:
>> Though it cannot be 'spread' in the manner of an Energy
>>Blast, an HA can be manipulated to improve OCV at the price of
>>damage. Each 1d6 of damage sacrificed gives a +1 OCV. Since an
>>HA - even when not focused - is assumed to be somewhat separate
>>from the character using it, it can be used to Block an
>>opponent's attack.
>
>This is where I have the real problem: exactly why are HA's "assumed to be
>somewhat separate from the character using it"? The two most common SFX
>besides weapons (i.e. Focus) that I've seen HA used for in the past are
>superspeed punches and superdense skin. Neither is separate from the
>character in any fashion, and it seems like a far easier approach to buy OCV
>bonuses with combat levels in addition to HA damage than to box them
>together and force players to limit them out.
>
I wholeheartedly agreed. . . . . hmm. . i'm very late. . but i
agree. . *l*
>--
>Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
>+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
>| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good |
>| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) |
>+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
> Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
>
>
From: Arknight 1 <Arknight1@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:54:08 EST
Subject: Re: My BBB's falling apart!
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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In a message dated 97-12-15 12:17:25 EST, GoldRushG@aol.com writes:
<< For a long time, ICE had a deal where you coould trade in your old BBB
for a
Champs softcover. Are there still a lot of folks left who don't have
replacements for their old Champs hardcover? >>
Yep, I'm one of them!
Tom
From: Arknight 1 <Arknight1@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:54:08 EST
Subject: Re: My BBB's falling apart!
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
In a message dated 97-12-15 12:17:25 EST, GoldRushG@aol.com writes:
<< For a long time, ICE had a deal where you coould trade in your old BBB
for a
Champs softcover. Are there still a lot of folks left who don't have
replacements for their old Champs hardcover? >>
Yep, I'm one of them!
Tom
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:54:18 +1000
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: That's What I Want...
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At 08:00 PM 12/14/97 -0500, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>This is, of course, a more expensive construct (not necessarily bad, as
>Shapeshifting is darn useful and fairly rare, comic-wise), but it's got lots
>greater resolution - I'd prefer added resolution than added limitations.
>
Like i said over density increase, it is far easier to 'adjust' an existing
power than change it to suit someone's assumptions.
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:57:41 +1000
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: That's What I Want...
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At 10:31 PM 12/14/97 -0500, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>>> should apply across the board vs. all SFX. I want Absorption to be able to
>>> operate as a defense without resorting to an Armor kludge. I want
>>
>> Why can you not grasp the whole idea of the Hero rules? We've
>>explianed it a million times. Figure out the effect you want and then
>>take the combined powers that will simulate that. That's why absorpion
>>provides no defense. Sheesh!
>
>Because Absorption doesn't _block_ or 'redirect' damage like armor or force
>fields. It _transforms_ it from damaging 'power' to useful 'power'. It
>should never have a _chance_ to do damage!
>
No, not true. For all you know my c's absorbtion could be his god awarding him
for being injured. . .
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:03:05 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Avengers vs. X-Men
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Tokyo Mark wrote:
>> Oh, yeah, that. I hadn't ever heard of that before the recent issue I
>> picked up... she's hunting for Gambit in (I believe) Antarctica and
>> mentions that it's buzzing like crazy... and that it had been inactive for
>> a *long* while.
>
>Must have an 8- roll;)
>
No Conscious Control (-2 Lim)? And then the GM forgot about it... lol
>>
>> Does Mjolnir come back every time he throws it? (Straight EB, OAF) Or is
>> it sometimes caught/deflected?
>
>It's been deflected but it seems to nearly always return. In fact,
>Juggernaut once stopped the hammer short of hitting him, then grabbed the
>hammer and let it pull him back to Thor, using the veolcity to add to his
>strength and sending Thor through several trains. I've always liked
>Juggy.
>
Yeah, I like Caine, too. I thought the friendship with Black Tom (as
presented in Spider-Man Team-up #100) was really nice... Caine went
through a lot of trouble to find that ruby (whatsisname?) that gave him his
powers to give to Tom. I hear they've been doing some funky things with
both Caine and Tom, tho... Ah, well.
- Jerry
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:07:17 +1000
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th ed art
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At 09:35 AM 12/14/97 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Captain Spith wrote:
>
>> I really like the Perez cover, but am not opposed to a change. But
>> the flavor should definitely be the same. Superheroes in action,
>> probably one large 'splash page' scene.
>> Or possibly a 5 or 6 panel comic-book page including a splash or
>> dialog and a splash of action....
>
>On the cover? Ick. Don't think I'd like the look of that much. The splash
>page thing is definitely the way to go, though.
>
>
Hows about this? a few diferent artist doing the same shot in a bunch
of panels? It'd probably suck for the front cover,
but how about the back?
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:15:46 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Rook wrote:
>>
>> > 1. Add an advantage called "Advantaged" which would be the exact
>> > counterpart to "Limited".
>>
>> Bad idea IMO. There's no need for it given an adequate set of Powers and
>> Advantages.
>>
> But a list is never 'complete'. There's always something missing.
>Such an advatage would make it easier to customize powers, and take such
>a thing away from being a 'house rule advatage' to a 'tournament legal'
>concept.
>
I still think that any 'tournament' would require a close look at
home-brewed Advantages *or* Limitations. They're still house rules, at
least as far as value goes.
>> > 7. Steal a few of the advatages from GURPS, like Richocet.
>>
>> What would that be used for?
>>
> Allows you to bounce an attack off of a surface. For each time you
>buy it, you can bounce one more surface. Or so it reads in GURPS.
I thought you could already 'bounce' attacks of an appropriate SFX,
possibly gaining a 'surprise' OCV bonus... Doesn't "Beam Attack" disallow
'bouncing'?
> Sort of a variation of 'Indirect'.
But if you wanted this to be a variation of 'Indirect,' you could just take
Indirect with a Limitation on the Advantage... 'Must have places to bounce
it.'
> GURPS has about twice as many advantages for powers as Champions does.
>Don't have a copy in front of me at the moment, but several of them would
>be nice to add in.
I can't think of many that we don't already have, but I haven't read it in
awhile, either.
> Of course having an 'advataged' advantage would make the issue moot.
>
Were you the one who said the same about Limited? That debating Linked was
'moot,' because you can simply redefine it with the 'Limited' Limitation?
Doesn't that mean we could save some space in the book by not printing any
Advantages/Limitations *besides* Advantaged and Limited?
- Jerry
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:19:05 +1000
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: That's What I Want...
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At 12:12 AM 12/15/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>>
>> Why do I not 'grasp' that Absorption provides no 'defense', Mr. Gilbert?
>> Because it DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE, that's why! Sheesh indeed!
>
> First of all. IT'S GILBERG! NOT GILBERT! GILBERG! YOU HEAR!
>
> Okay, then. Now that issue's cleared, we can move on.
>
>> Because Absorption doesn't _block_ or 'redirect' damage like armor or force
>> fields. It _transforms_ it from damaging 'power' to useful 'power'. It
>> should never have a _chance_ to do damage!
>
> That's _one_ interpretation and SFX of the power provided in the
>HSR. There very well could be others that do not fit the above. Why does
>everything have to work like the one you have?
>
becasue you are trying to ADD stuff, just like adding resistant defences to
density increase. It is FAR easier to add a defence power than expect people
to take some wierd-ass limitation even if it's provided right there.
*knowing this is probably over but can't help pointing out the obvious*
X-Sender: nolan@pop.erols.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:19:51 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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<x-rich>>><<<< Major Mistake. The powers rules have many applications outside of
>>Super Powers. I think the Hero system rulebook should be the same size as
>>it was in 4th edition.>>
>>
>> My bad. I think the plan *was* (or, rather, *is*) to have all the character
>>creation rules (including the "powers") in the Hero System Rules book, and
>>treat the Champions book as the campaign book (perhaps with a few extra
>>goodies, and certainly plenty of clear examples!).
>>
>> Mark @ GRG
>>
>
>yay! *g* Best to focus on interpretations- i.e. how to sue duper-talents,
>good ways to do wierd powers, ect. .
I ordinarily wouldn't waste bandwidth on a "Me, too", but...Me, too!
HERO is -not- Champions. Please make the distinction, and don't make me pay for what I don't need.
Thanks,
Scott
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The German dragon shall find it hard to escape
to its cavernous lairs, for vengeance for it's
treason will overtake it. In the end it will become
strong again, just for a short time, but the
decimation of Normandy will be a sorry blow.
<bold>Geoffrey of Monmouth</bold>, c. 1136
<italic>The Prophecies of Merlin
</italic>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scott Nolan
nolan@erols.com
</x-rich>
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:22:00 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: That's What I Want...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Mike Lehmann wrote:
>As an aside, does anyone else here restrict the SFX of attacks that
>someone's Damage Reduction/Absorption/etc. can function against (ie
>fire, cold, punches, etc.) rather than just Energy/Physical damage?
>
In general, yes I do. KnightFire only has Damage Reduction to Fire,
Crusader has Damage Reduction to Magic, etc.
I haven't done much at all with Absorption.
- Jerry
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:31:02 +1000
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From: happyelf <jonesmj%topaz@cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: That's What I Want...
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au (Unverified)
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At 05:01 AM 12/15/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> Rather than try to argue this in terms of logic and real-world physics,
>I suggest we examine the application of the power in comics and other
>fiction and determine how it works there. Then we can determine whether we
>need (a) kludges for other Powers such as Armor and Knockback Resistance,
>(b) an Advantage to Absorption (which is what I currently use, at +1/2), or
>(c) a Limitation to Absorption (when it *doesn't* provide a defense).
>---
>Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
>Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
>
>
>
#1 or #2. . stay away fromm #3 at all costs. . .
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:38:35 +1000
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au (Unverified)
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At 11:23 AM 12/15/97 -0600, bobby farris wrote:
> I agree totally and can't wait for this to happen. This is the way it
>should always have been. Hero system is a great "Generic" game system,
>but because it has always been combined with Champions and because of a
>lack (relatively) of World books it has been overlooked and other game
>systems (like say Gurps, which I like) have taken it's place.
>
I think genre books should focus on genre- i.e. really good background,
lots of advise, in fact minimise the rules stuff so that the focus
can be used by *any* game. .
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:42:14 +1000
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au (Unverified)
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At 09:31 AM 12/15/97 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>> - Extra Limbs should go back to having a cost per limb. My own
>> structure is 5 points for two arms, with reduced costs for lesser utility
>> (3 points for one arm, 3 for a pair of tentacles, 1 for a single tentacle
>> or prehensile tail).
>
>That was one of the silliest parts of the previous edition of Champions; I
>certainly have no desire to see it return. Building the 100-armed giants
>of Greek mythology should _not_ mandate a Power on the order of 1000
>points.
>
I agree. There's no reason multiple limmbs will help any more than a few
in most situations.
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:44:20 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition thoughts
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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>>CHANGE ENVIRONMENT: Should stay with the present structure and cost, but
>>lose the area, if you want an area, buy area effect on it. Increasing the
>>area is by the Area Effect rules thereafter, negating the 5 pt cost per
>>doubling.
>>
>>DARKNESS: loses the automatic area like CE, and increased area is bought by
>>the area effect.
>
> So what's the point/utility of non-AE CE and Darkness?
Well you can target a single person with it, like a continuous blast, so
instead of it being cold everywhere, its just on that one guy, or dark on
that one guy.
This construct makes the powers expensive enough, but more consistent with
the rest of the rules, I think.
----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Lesson in humility (and irony)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:47:48 -0800
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On Sunday, December 14, 1997 6:57 AM, Curtis Gibson wrote:
>A bit a background then the situation.
<snip>
>
>Now, you tell me, is it fair to use a that thing I built (a little,
no
>a lot munchkin) back on us. 8)
No. Of course not. That was horribly unfair. I'd _never_ do that to my
players.
Heh, heh, heh, heh, heh, heh.
Filksinger
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:56:26 +1000
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au (Unverified)
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At 02:38 PM 12/15/97 -0500, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>>I can think of things which reduce costs that should be Minor (blinding,
>>for example). Also, the rule about "no point increases" desperately needs
>>to be reinstated.
>
>Well, that's hard to say. After all, if Mysterium the Mage and friends are
>falling off a cliff, and Mysterium wants to do a Transform to give everyone
>wings, well, he can't, because of the rule you mention. He can't turn those
>25 point peasants into tigers (233 points according to the HERO Bestiary).
>And so on. Perhaps the introduction of some sort of 'system shock' with
>respect to Transforms on living organisms would limit the abuse. I dunno.
>
I'd call that a summon teamed with a 'banishment' power- dimensional travel
vs others?
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Ed Cover
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:57:00 -0800
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On Sunday, December 14, 1997 3:35 PM, GoldRushG wrote:
<snip>
><< I'd realy like to see the next panel, though: Seeker burried
under the
>wall Doc D just squished him with, and the broken Katana stiking
out.... >>
>
> I know you were joking (at least I hope so), but I don't know if
we'll be
>featuring any of the CU characters on the cover. Just FYI.
On the original Champions Autoduel by Steve Jackson games, the cover
showed a superhero holding a car over his head. A man in the car
leaned out the window, bouncing bullets off his chest. Behind the
hero, another car was racing towards his back.
Inside the book was a picture of a car, a superhero lying on his back
on the hood, and another car upside down on top of him, and three
thought bubbles- "I shouldn't have done that...."
I always liked that picture.<BEG>
Filksinger
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Special Offers to the list
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:58:45 -0800
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On Sunday, December 14, 1997 3:41 PM, GoldRushG wrote:
> Would the list lurkers here be in favor of occasional special
offers on Hero
>products if we were to do that? Something akin to "No shipping on
orders" or a
>slight discount? We're considering starting seasonal or
holiday-themed sales
>and I wanted to get feedback from folks here on the idea.
Thank you very much for actually _asking_. Since you did ask, I'd say
yes, otherwise....
Filksinger
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:01:35 -0800
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On Sunday, December 14, 1997 3:46 PM, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> Why? Can't a PC spread his EB, or use *up to* his max dice in the
blast? Why
>> not let him use *less*? Say, a 1/2 die or 1 Pip Energy Blast,
effectively
>> making it a 0 END "show of force?"
>
>
> There's a minimal END cost involved with anything, usually placed
>at the minimum cost of the power level but almost always 1 END. More
if
>increased END is on the power, however. This is from the same idea
that
>even a non-STR-using Physical Action still uses 1 pt of END.
Agreed. One pt of END, or nothing.
> And as for powers with charges -- you blew a charge, plain and
>simple, by using the power. You're down one charge and there ain't
no way
>I'm letting an argument get that back.
Indeed. "You just ran out of bullets in your six-shooter." "No, that
first shot was a show of force."
THWAP! (Sound of BBB (softcover) hitting player's head.)
Filksinger
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:13:54 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: That's What I Want...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>>E.) 1/3th the amount of CPs gained than Aid (in general, you roll 3-4 per
>>die of Aid, but only 1 CP per die of Absorption).
>>
>Okay, I hope this doesn't sound too stupid. I was always under the
>impression that you rolled the dice, counted the *total* and used that as
>the BODY able to be absorbed... not the *BODY* total on the dice.
>I guess my way gives you even more power, huh?
>Can someone explain it to me, please?
Crap, you're right. Silly me, going off confusing the Entangle/Flash method
of accounting with Absorption. What I should have said was "low likelyhood
of actually getting the full use out your Absorption total (unless it's
small), because in order for that to happen you'd have to take several hits
over the course of your phase." Especially with the 'no defense' method,
where getting hit multiple times is bad, very bad.
Something tells me that, on average, it's a lot better to buy 4D6 Absorption
and screeds of +Capacity than 8D6 Absorption, unless you can soak a _lot_ of
fire over a short period.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:14:02 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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>> Well, that's hard to say. After all, if Mysterium the Mage and friends are
>> falling off a cliff, and Mysterium wants to do a Transform to give everyone
>> wings, well, he can't, because of the rule you mention.
>
>He can do an Aid Flight, though.
Not if they don't have the flight power already. He _could_ do Flight, UBO,
but what if all he's got is Transform? Splat?
>> He can't turn those 25 point peasants into tigers (233 points according to
>> the HERO Bestiary).
>
>This, too, can be done with Transform linked to Aid,
Ack! And this gets how expensive? Not only a Transform, but a +4D6 Aid to
all Tiger Powers(+2)? If I've blown the 90 points for that 6D6 Major
Transform 'People to Tigers', I don't think it's fair that I have to spend
yet more! All the power needs is a 'clause' that says "while Transforming a
target into something more powerful is possible, GM permission is required
in every such case." I'd say turning an 'ordinary' human into an 'ordinary'
tiger isn't abusive - though turning an 'ordinary' person into a
'superhuman' obviously falls into the realm of game mechanic/villians only
(Like Ba Kien, from Ninja HERO).
>or just "Summon
>Tigers, requires peasants nearby(-1/2)" if you consider the peasants to be
>effectively just scenery.
But they aren't, they could be DNPCs. Of course, it's a good idea to have
your Tiger Summoning power with this limitation, as it takes care of the
'Summoning a hungry tiger' problem ^_^ Nice kitty! Have some peasants!
>> Me neither. Though I _would_ like to see an official modifier, 'Costs END to
>> Activate, but not Maintain', though I'm not sure what it's worth. Probably a
>> +1/4).
>
>Assuming the current costs for Costs END/0 END stay the same, it would
>pretty much have to be +1/4 for Powers that normally cost END, -1/4 for
>Powers which normally don't. I've been using this for a while.
Good, but I'd like to see it officialized, as it's a relevant mechanic, IMHO.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Special Offers to the list
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:23:40 -0800
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On Sunday, December 14, 1997 6:10 PM, John Desmarais wrote:
>On Sun, 14 Dec 1997 19:04:48 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
>
>> Would the list lurkers here be in favor of occasional special
offers on Hero
>>products if we were to do that?
<snip>
>
>I don't think I have ever once objected to a discount on something I
was considering
>buying anyway.
I have. I object when it is emailed to me, without my saying I wanted
it, _even if I want it_.
I believe he is attempting to avoid undesired spamming. I definitely
think he should be commended for this. That is why I said I didn't
object.
Filksinger
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:24:27 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 07:19 PM 12/15/97 -0500, Scott Nolan wrote:
>>><< Major Mistake. The powers rules have many applications outside of
>>>Super Powers. I think the Hero system rulebook should be the same size as
>>>it was in 4th edition.>>
>>>
>>> My bad. I think the plan *was* (or, rather, *is*) to have all the character
>>>creation rules (including the "powers") in the Hero System Rules book, and
>>>treat the Champions book as the campaign book (perhaps with a few extra
>>>goodies, and certainly plenty of clear examples!).
>>>
>>> Mark @ GRG
>>>
>>
>>yay! *g* Best to focus on interpretations- i.e. how to sue duper-talents,
>>good ways to do wierd powers, ect. .
>
>
>I ordinarily wouldn't waste bandwidth on a "Me, too", but...Me, too!
>
>HERO is -not- Champions. Please make the distinction, and don't make me pay for what I don't need.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Scott
>
>
NOT! so you don't have guns? or magic? or ANYTHING? above i was talking about the
GENRE-BOOK, but i believe that was kinda obvious. . .
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>The German dragon shall find it hard to escape
>to its cavernous lairs, for vengeance for it's
>treason will overtake it. In the end it will become
>strong again, just for a short time, but the
>decimation of Normandy will be a sorry blow.
> Geoffrey of Monmouth, c. 1136
> The Prophecies of Merlin
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Scott Nolan
>nolan@erols.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:39:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
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On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Guy Hoyle wrote:
> >>If there are any extensive changes at all, I wouldn't mind seeing
> >>something like (but not exactly like) the "Incomplete Character"
> >rules.
> >
> >Yes. I would definitely like to see something like that.
> >
> >Some people hate the Spirit rules, I rather like them. I would like to
> >see them expanded upon, possibly as part of the "Incomplete Character"
> >rules, and cleaned up a bit.
>
> I agree. The spirit rules made it possible for RuneQuest-like spirits,
> which are extremely difficult to do with Desolid, Mind Control, etc., and
> to retain the same feel.
>
>
Not to mention such comics characters as the Swamp Thing, the Construct,
Kilg%re, Deadman, etc.
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:50:08 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: TUSV
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Brian Wong (Rook) wrote:
>> take what I post as gospel even if you'd take TUSV itself as such.
>
> Am I the only one who keeps wanting to read that as
>"The Ultimate Super Villian"?
> Which in itself may make for a justifiable book.
>
I did read it that way for a while, but... Anyway, the D&D version of
that didn't impress me. It gave general guidelines on motives and such for
baddies... <shrugs>
- Jerry
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:56:29 -0800
From: mcallahan <mcallahan@home.com>
Reply-To: mcallahan@home.com
Subject: Re: Champions 5th edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> While obliterating the stun lottery has a certain appeal, I don't think that
> making a 12 DC killing attack average 42 body would be a particularly good
> idea....
> The ratio between 'ability to do stun' and 'ability to kill things' in HERO is
> a bit low (fear my pistol; I cannot possibly kill you with it, but I can sure
> knock you unconscious!), but I think Fuzion took it a bit too far in the other
> direction.
The ratio for stun damage to body damage in HERO is exactly where you
set it (for killing anyway). The standard defence paradigm is 2.5 points
of defence per DC, this lets one point of stun per DC past defences
(about, these numbers all fall prey to very complex math). The amount of
body done to a character is a function of how much of that DEF you let
be resistant, obviously if you let all of it be resistant then the
players will never take any body, if you set a limit of 1 point
resistant per DC then players will take 2 body from an average killing
attack. If you set it at .5 resistant per DC and you'll have players
dying while still conscious. You're the GM Set the limits where you want
them.
Comments: Authenticated sender is <sti@pop3.hip.cam.org>
From: "Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG>
Organization: Stirling Westrup Consulting
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:59:44 +0000
Subject: Needed: Mentalist Inspiration
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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I was hoping the folks on this list could help with a character design. I've
been invited to join an ongoing Champions game, and the other player want me to
create a mentalist to help round out their party. Now, I've been playing and
GMing in the Hero System for years, but I've never much liked mentalists. So, I
want some unconventional suggestions for mentalism powers to give me some
inspiration. The concepts I've come up with so far (I do concepts first, build
system after) are:
Mental Invisibility.
She projects an aura that affects peoples minds and convinces them that she
isn't there. It would be probably be bought as some form of Images
(Static Image of empty space) aftecting all but mental senses (mentalists can
'see' what she's doing) Probably has some sort of limitation like 'Points of
Mental Def counter negative perception modifiers' or something like that. She
would likely have extra levels of DCV linked to the Mental Invisibility. She
might even have a multipower in which she can tune her aura to project
other affects, like heightened beauty or impressiveness or even some sort of
'Boy am I scarey' field.
Induced Psychometry
She can project her illusion field onto objects and they will retain their
illusion for a time. Ideally this would be some sort of ablative perception
modifier. Every time someone looks at the object, one -1 of the perception
modifiers would go away, until it finally faded away altogether. Of course,
Mental Def would make someone immune to the effect.
Mental Transform
I am assuming that a Transform vs Mental Def is a +0 (since AVLD doesn't
distinguish between them.) Anyway, she would have a (minor?) transform to
modify someone's memories (possibly requiring a sufficient read-minds roll).
Ideally the effect would require rolling double the victims EGO rather than
BODY, but that isn't essential.
Skill Drain
This might also have to be bought as a transform, but I am thinking of a
mental power that interferes with and makes someone forget how to use a
particular skill/maneuver for a time.
So there you are. Are there any other good mind-affecting powers that she
should have? The party already has a telekinetic, so I'm shying away from that.
Stirling
PS: What does LOL stand for anyway?
--
Stirling Westrup | Use of the Internet by this poster
sti@cam.org | is not to be construed as a tacit
| endorsement of Western Technological
| Civilization or its appurtenances.
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:05:10 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Avengers vs. X-Men
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Rook (Brian Wong) wrote:
>> > Does Mjolnir come back every time he throws it? (Straight EB, OAF)
Or is
>> > it sometimes caught/deflected?
>>
> If it always returns, does it deserve a focus limitation?
>
Well... (NO, NOT AGAIN!!!) It would depend on whether you could take it
away from him Hand-to-hand. I'm not making a call on that here (phew,
dodged that one), but it *could* still get the Focus Lim. I mean, can you
catch a bullet, and thereby disarm someone w/ a gun? Being able to be
caught would have to have a different, additional mechanic, or just be in
the realm of SFX (possibly for Missle Deflection, as mentioned in Ninja Hero).
- Jerry
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:11:53 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
-- Being able to stand them up in those plastic stands is a good
start. It gives them (hopefully) just enough weight and stability to
ignore the effects of errant wind gusts.
Include some for all genre. Some of those sword swinging
maniacs, mages, thieves and other "basics". If you intead to release
(redo?) the beastery, include examples of them to scale. Even include
them with the basic package. Large numbers of people like to play non
humans every now and then.
As to cost, there is the rub. You mentioned a cost of $40 for a
new book and an extra $2-3 for the cutouts. I would assume that was
Americian. With the way the Australian dollar is trading at the moment,
adding in shipping costs brings it up to some where in the order of
$80-90 in the stores. While I would like to see a new edition come out,
at that price, a soft cover book would have to be REALLY good to get
people to but it.
Any chance of doing a mail order from over there?
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:18:52 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Bob Greenwade wrote:
> But you *can't* apply the Limitation to the larger Power; that is quite
> explicitly stated.
I would suggest that that particlur rule was placed to stop people
saying "I have a 3d6 flash. I will link my 12d6 energy blast to it. -1/2 on
the energy blast, thanks"
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:25:25 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Slipperiness
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Kevin J. McClain wrote:
>
> Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>
> > Really, though, I think slipperiness needs to be a power. Creating a new
> > power probably isn't within the scope of TUSV, so whatever you use will
> > necessarily be a bit of a kludge.
>
> I may have missed the answer to this question, but what is wrong with Change
> Environment? As it was described in Hero System Almanac 2( pages 28-30), CE
> imposes sight modifiers and combat modifiers. You could add movement reduction
> by saying every 20 points of CE reduces ground movement 2" and halves
> acceleration.
>
The HSA2 version of CE does two basic things:
1) It defines long-term effects of specific environments. This isn't
really a change to CE so much as a standardization, as any reasonable GM
would figure that *something* would happen to a character standing in a
snowstorm for six hours. This much of the power, which was probably
modeled on an earlier Adventurers Club article about weather, I liked.
2) It defines immediate affects, at newly defined costs, for certain
drastic environments. Some of these affects seemed like unseemly overlaps
with other powers; for example, you don't need to give CE an option to do
NND attacks for pressure changes, you can simply build NND attacks to use
in conjunction with CE. The biggest failing with these rules, though, is
that they're limited to just a few special effects. The strength of the
Hero System is in letting you create just about any effect, defining the
SFX as you please.
To be truthful, Slipperiness is the only effect that I've badly missed in
the system, but the first time I brought it up on the list, I was
convinced that there are some other things that are tough to simulate too,
and that all would fit nicely into a revised CE. A mist that somewhat (but
not completely) impairs sight, for example; it's easy to do by GM fiat,
but what if a character wants the ability to create it? Or how about
gravity alteration powers, which change how you fall and how you move?
> Besides, coming up with a separate new power would necessatate coming up with a
> separate new defense.
>
Not at all. There's no special defense against CE as it stands, and there
need be none with an expanded version. Whatever adverse effects the
environment has can be countered either by a high enough stat that
penalties to it won't matter, or by removing oneself from the effects of
the environment (for example, by desolidication.)
At the risk of boring people who've already seen it, I'll repeat the
version of CE I worked up (with Bob, Geoff, and others). I reposted it a
couple of weeks ago, and nobody responded so I dropped the subject; but it
seems relevent to this discussion. Please keep in mind that it's not as
complicated as it may look; a chart with a nice layout would break down
the effects almost as simply as the aspects of Life Support. It just
doesn't look very nice as a text file.
Change Environment
A character with this Standard Power can alter or add to the general
conditions in an area. The character could, for instance, create light in
a certain area, change the temperature, or cover the ground with ice. The
character can change the environment in one hex for 5 Character Points;
this radius can be doubled for +5 points. To use Change Environment counts
as a Constant attack, and the Power can be used at range. At the base
level, Change Environment does not have any direct effect on combat,
though with the GM's permission it may have combat effects under
particular circumstances or do measurable damage over long periods.
If the player wants definite game effects from the power, the cost is
increased by the following:
+1 point (cumulative)
+/- 1" Terminal Velocity (minimum 0")
+/- 1" to Turn Mode`
+/- 1 to one sense PER Roll for a particular purpose
or under certain circumstances (e.g. Sight Roll to identify someone)
2 points (cumulative)
+/- 1 to one sense PER roll
+/- 1 to PER rolls for a Sense Group for one purpose or under certain`
circumstances
+/- 1 to one Characteristic Roll for a particular purpose (e.g. DEX Roll
while using hands)
+/- 1 to a particular Skill Roll
+3 Points (cumulative)
+/- 1 to one Characteristic Roll and any Skill Rolls based on that
Characteristic`
+/- 1 to PER roll for one Sense Group
+/- 1 Ranged OCV
+/- 1" Falling Acceleration (minimum 0")
+4 Points (cumulative)
+/- 1" to one Movement Power (including Leaping and Being Thrown,
separately)
+/- 1" Knockback
+5 Points (cumulative)
+/- 1 OCV
+/- 1 DCV
10 points (cumulative)
+/- 1 Encumbrance level (only for campaigns using Encumbrance rules)
10 points (noncumulative)
+/- 1d6 to KB Roll
Movement with no turn mode normally gets a turn mode.
15 points (noncumulative)`
x1/2 OCV
x1/2 DCV
0 Ranged OCV Fall (as O STR Martial Throw: target may take v/5 damage)
30 points (noncumulative)
0 OCV
0 DCV
Other effects of the power may be assigned a cost by comparison with the
above list. Under no circumstances should Change Environment directly
inflict damage or duplicate the effects of another Power. GM's should
watch for abuses of this power, and pay particular attention to its
effects on OCV and DCV; Change Environment's modification should be
taken into account when applying campaign CV limits to the character.
A character must specify the effects of Change Environment when purchasing
the Power. To be able to vary the effects of Change Environment is a +1
Power Advantage. This Advantage may even allow the player to reconfigure
the combat effects of the Power to any of a set of configurations defined
when the power is purchased; each such configuration (and the total
number allowed) requires GM approval. These varied effects must still fit
into a tight group of special effects - the character cannot use the Power
to create any environment.
Examples:
8" Radius Ice Field (5+): x1/2 DCV, DEX Roll Reduces Penalty to -1 DCV
(-1/2)
(10), -1d6 to KB Roll (10), Fall, DEX Roll to Avoid (-1/2) (10), x8
Radius (15). Total Cost = 50
16" Radius Mist (5+): -2 to Sight Rolls to Identify Someone (2), -2 to
Sight PER Rolls (4), x16 Radius (20). Total Cost = 31
Change Environment Cost: 5 point base, x2 Radius for +5 points. See Table
for additional effects. Minimum cost 10 points. A character can vary the
environment to other set configurations for a +1 advantage. Maximum Range
is points x5 inches. Change Environment is a constant power.
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:25:32 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 09:58 AM 12/15/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Brian Wong wrote:
>> > > Often times what I let my players do is give me "comparisons" I
can relate
>> > > to. Things like "I do a double back-flip like Jackie Chan did in
that one
>> > > scene in Armor of God VII" and I say "Okay. Make your roll." ;)
>> >
>> > No way man, Jackie vs Bennie in "Dragons Forever"!
>> >
>> Naw, the scene in City Hunter where he gets slammed into a video
>> game machine and comes out as the girl in Street Fighter II (but the actor
>> still being Jackie), then the other guy turns into Ken and starts shooting
>> blasts at him.
>
>Jackie Chan as Chun Li, Richard Norton as Ken. Alonng the way, Jackie,
>Richard and some extras show up as everyone else too... complete with
>fireballs and sonic booms.
>
Yeah, he was E Honda at one point, right? (the sumo guy...)
>> But I don't know if that one's been brought over into english yet. I
>> saw it in Chinese while living in asia.
>
>Saw a dubbed copy a long time ago.
>
Yeah, but just this one scene. I think it was also used on an episode of
"The Incredibly Strange Film Show" (or something like that).
>Okay, for acrobatics in a fight: Jackie Chan vs Ken Lo in Drunken Master
>II!
>
Say, how would one do drunken fighting, anyway? I know there's a section
on it in Ninja Hero, under Kung Fu, and they list -2 OCV/DCV later in NH,
but...
Drunken Fighters get *better* when they are drunk, right? So, CSL, only
when drunk?
- Jerry
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:26:04 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Atmospheric FTL
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
-- Trevor Barrie wrote:
> Yes, this is a problem. Allowing an Advantage on Teleport to allow blind
> teleporting is possibly a good idea.
Anybody with teleport can already blind teleport. You pick a direction
and a distance. The GM looks at his map or whatever and decides if anything is
already there. If the place is empty, BAMF, your there. If something is
already there, you go to the nearest empty space and fall over. (Maybe) There
is a very nice table on page 144 in the BBB for just such a case.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:31:14 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Slipperiness
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
I think one thing you may have missed would be some sort of
reduction in movement and accelleration. Little or nor traction would
mean the tires/feet/etc woudl be moving like hell but not getting very
far.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
X-Sender: nolan@pop.erols.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:34:07 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<x-rich>At 11:24 AM 12/16/97 +1000, happyelf wrote:
>At 07:19 PM 12/15/97 -0500, Scott Nolan wrote:
>>>><<<< Major Mistake. The powers rules have many applications outside of
>>>>Super Powers. I think the Hero system rulebook should be the same size as
>>>>it was in 4th edition.>>
>>>>
>>>> My bad. I think the plan *was* (or, rather, *is*) to have all the character
>>>>creation rules (including the "powers") in the Hero System Rules book, and
>>>>treat the Champions book as the campaign book (perhaps with a few extra
>>>>goodies, and certainly plenty of clear examples!).
>>>>
>>>> Mark @ GRG
>>>>
>>>
>>>yay! *g* Best to focus on interpretations- i.e. how to sue duper-talents,
>>>good ways to do wierd powers, ect. .
>>
>>
>>I ordinarily wouldn't waste bandwidth on a "Me, too", but...Me, too!
>>
>>HERO is -not- Champions. Please make the distinction, and don't make me pay for what I don't need.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Scott
>
>NOT! so you don't have guns? or magic? or ANYTHING? above i was talking about the
>GENRE-BOOK, but i believe that was kinda obvious. . .
Well, I thought you were being clear before, but now I've kinda lost you. So let me restate what I think we are talking about: Put -ALL- the powers and rules and mechanics in -ONE- book and call that the Hero System Rules. Put all -GENRE- related material (whether superheroes, space opera, fantasy, whatever) in separate books. -NOT- books with genre-specific rules or powers, just books with examples of how to use the core rules to create genre-specific effects.
Scott
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The German dragon shall find it hard to escape
to its cavernous lairs, for vengeance for it's
treason will overtake it. In the end it will become
strong again, just for a short time, but the
decimation of Normandy will be a sorry blow.
<bold>Geoffrey of Monmouth</bold>, c. 1136
<italic>The Prophecies of Merlin
</italic>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scott Nolan
nolan@erols.com
</x-rich>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:37:34 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Reply-To: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
> I'm afraid I cannot address any more comments regarding a 5th Edition. It
> seems I misspoke earlier. I welcome your comments about what you'd like to see
> in future Hero System products from Gold Rush Games, however.
>
So far it doesn't look like anybody's noticed this message in all the
excitement.
As I learned from a disastrous engagement, things that seem too good to be
true usually are. Oh, well, I'm sure you're feeling like you put your foot
in your mouth, Mark. Don't worry too much about it - I'm sure most here
will understand that it was an unintended error, and besides, all it takes
is anybody using the term "5th Edition" to get this list ranting about it
for weeks. Please keep in mind that there is an enthusiastic market for
this product out there, should it ever be within your power to publish it.
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:39:47 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
-- Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> At 08:12 PM 12/13/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> >>>>>> "AJ" == Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> writes:
> >
> >AJ> Actually, it does; its just that the target of an aid ordinarily
> >AJ> _wants_ to be hit, and thus pending extreme circumstances the attack
> >AJ> roll can be assumed to be successful.
> >
> >An attack roll is part of the process of making an attack. If you do not
> >roll it, you have not made an attack.
>
> Hold on a sec... what about breaking out of an Entangle? I was being
> mostly facetious before about the sky having a DCV, but a character using
> STR or an attack Power (if you should pardon the expression) to break out
> of an Entangle is a case of an attack that doesn't require an Attack Roll.
> I'd have to search for it, but I think attacking someone who is
> completely immobile at point-blank range also can be done without an Attack
> Roll.
And if you break the entangle with double the required body, you get a
full phase. Quote, p68 BBB "If an ATTACK [my capitols] against an entangle
does twice the remaining body of the entangle or more, then the attacker may
take his full action (ie. it takes no time to break out of the entangle). If
an attack against an entangle does the remaining body or more, then the
attacker may take a half action." End quote.
An attack was made against the entangle. If it breaks the entangle,
you get either a half or full phase. Which can be used to make an attack.
(Duck!!)
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:41:48 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Might as well throw in my .02 on Bob's suggestions.
> - Interrogation should not *necessarily* be violent. In my campaign, an
> attorney can use Interrogation to prompt a witness that she doesn't think
> is telling the truth ("Need I remind you of the penalties for perjury?" and
> such). Either that, or there should be a different Skill for this.
> - Similarly seduction should not *necessarily* be sexual. A person can
> be "seduced" by wealth, fame, and power. (Arguably, of course, this could
> be represented with Bribery, though it seems to my mind closer to
> Seduction, semantically speaking.)
I use both of these this way already, but agree the wording could
be changed a little to more easily allow for these interpretations.
> - Darkness, Images, and other Powers whose base forms affect a single
> sense but which can affect entire Sense Groups should be allowed to take +5
> points to affect a Sense Group without affecting only a single Sense.
Just the standard thing going.
> - Energy Blast should not be allowed to be STUN Only for no bonus.
> Sure, the character doesn't have to worry about collateral damage that way,
> but this is relatively minor compared to the utility that's lost without
> the ability to do BODY damage (most specifically as affecting Entangles,
> robots, vehicles, and other inanimate objects).
We've been over this in debate, but I think most of it comes down
to effect and feel. Stun-only is of no importance. Almost all major
damage donw is in STUN, and the only thing that matters in Hero is KOing
someone. The BOD damage is negligible. Even more so because most that
have this will also have some other attack that _does_ do body to affect
the random wall, tree, or car.
Of course, this assumes that it still does KB even though it does
no BOD. If no KB is included with no STUN (something I don't like as it
removes certain applications of the power) then it is worth -1/2, exactly
the same as "does no KB."
> - Enhanced Senses should include a Touch Sense Group.
Yes. I assume one as it is. Though even invis to touch won't
mean no STUN, etc. An attack with IPE to Touch will be very hard to
figure out, however. You're hurt, you know you're hurt, you're just not
sure how you're hurt.
> - Extra Limbs should go back to having a cost per limb. My own
> structure is 5 points for two arms, with reduced costs for lesser utility
> (3 points for one arm, 3 for a pair of tentacles, 1 for a single tentacle
> or prehensile tail).
Ug. No need. There is really no major effect for many limbs.
Most effects people want from lots of lims should be simmed with CSLs and
powers.
> - Flash, as mentioned elsewhere, should be 5 points per die, with each
> BODY pip of Flash working for 1 segment. (It makes Flash Defense more
> balanced.)
Something should be done. As it is, Flash Defense is way too
cheap. 2 pts for the minimum 5 with an OAF.
> - Force Field and Force Wall should have Flash Defense, Mental Defense,
> and Power Defense methods built right in.
Sure. See USM for examples, but basically put that right into the
core rules.
> - Hand-to-Hand Attack should *not* be omitted; this would leave us with
> the old kludge of "+X STR, Only for Damage." Use Opal's version instead.
Look at the version in Hero's Digital Hero instead. I expect this
is what we'll be seeing in any new version. Oh, and note the KA option as
well; I'd expect KA to just be an advantage on normal attacks.
> - Instant Change should be scaled. (My scale is 5 pts = instant, 4 pts
> = half Phase, 3 pts = Phase, 2 pts = Turn, 1 pt = minute, normal = 5
> minutes, with all costs doubled for "any clothing.")
How long does it take to change in the first place? And this
could be simulated with the "Extra Time" lim.
> - Life Support should have some of its elements able to be broken down
> even further, like 2 points for being immune to *either* heat *or* cold.
> Also, 1-2 points for retarded aging is a cool idea.
Like I pointed out, work in something like Weapon Familiarities.
Also, add a LS: Does not die for something like 10 pts. A somewhat major
ability with almost no combat importance. This is not something that
should cost 20, 30, 40, or more points, as some of the list's writeups
have done.
> - Shrinking should include a "proportional STR" Limitation, say -1/4.
Um. I'd make it worth more. Also, include a density decrease
only limitation on shrinking to round out the Growth and Mass powers.
> - Swinging should be specifically described as movement per Phase, not
> movement per swing.
Never noticed, but that does lead to possible abuse, doesn't it?
> - Armor Piercing should be purchasable so that it can do more than just
> halve the target's defenses. However, I do see why this was stopped in 4th
> ed. I'd recommend charging an extra +1/4 for each level higher that the
> Armor Piercing can go (+1 1/4 to quarter defenses, +2 1/4 to reduce to
> one-eighth, etc.).
Nope. This is too easily abusable. Keep it as it is in 4th ed.
> - Explosion should be +3/4 so it doesn't cost the same as AE: One Hex.
> (The old method of making AE: One Hex cost +1/4 wouldn't work, because then
> it would hit the proverbial floor if it's Nonselective.) The Selective
> Target and Nonselective Target options for AE should also be available.
We also need a way to increase the increased radius for expl at a
faster rate. As it is, a AE is quickly more effective.
> - Damage Shield should be clarified so that *any* significant contact,
> including the character with DS making an attack against the target, will
> cause damage.
Too unbalancing. Just take an EB with the new "HA" build on it.
> - Reduced END should be half END for +1/4, 1 END for +1/2, 0 END for
> +3/4, and Persistent for +1.
Too messy. Just keep it as it is. Oh, and allow for non-0 END
persistent powers.
> - Charges should be worth an extra +1/2 if the Power to which it's
> applied normally doesn't cost END (or +1 if the Charges cost END).
Nope. Just an advantage that is lost. Though I could live with a
change here. It wouldn't be too unbalancing.
> - Public Identity should be replaced with Social Limitation, of which
> Public Identity can be one. Use scales similar to those used for Physical
> and Psychological Limitations.
Yes.
> - Reputation should have modifiers for limited group -- say, -5 for a
> small group, +0 for a large group, +5 for the public at large.
See . . . UMA maybe? Or was it Dark Champions.
> - Secret Identity should become simply Secret, with scales similar to
> those used for Physical and Psychological Limitations.
Good.
> - Susceptibility should have a variation for Allergy (using a similar
> structure for the Addiction variation on Dependence). Also, the number
> dice should go on forever.
Also good.
Lots of good suggestions, some clunkers. Keep trying.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:44:02 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: That's What I Want...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<comments arguing against absorption as a defense cut>
Mr. Barrie, I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask you to stay after
class. That post was a complete restatement of my earlier post, and I
didn't see any crediting. You know Miskatonic University's penalty for
plagerism.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:46:03 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> > And as for powers with charges -- you blew a charge, plain and
> >simple, by using the power. You're down one charge and there ain't
> no way
> >I'm letting an argument get that back.
>
> Indeed. "You just ran out of bullets in your six-shooter." "No, that
> first shot was a show of force."
>
> THWAP! (Sound of BBB (softcover) hitting player's head.)
I'd prefer a large handful of dice, myself . . .
-Tim Gilberg
X-Sender: nolan@pop.erols.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:48:04 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<x-rich>>> I'm afraid I cannot address any more comments regarding a 5th Edition. It
>> seems I misspoke earlier. I welcome your comments about what you'd like to see
>> in future Hero System products from Gold Rush Games, however.
>>
>So far it doesn't look like anybody's noticed this message in all the
>excitement.
Oh, we noticed. We just like to argue anyway...
Seriously, the fact that there won't be one (they say...) doesn't mean that we shouldn't talk about how the current game could be better.
>As I learned from a disastrous engagement, things that seem too good to be
>true usually are. Oh, well, I'm sure you're feeling like you put your foot
>in your mouth, Mark. Don't worry too much about it - I'm sure most here
>will understand that it was an unintended error, and besides, all it takes
>is anybody using the term "5th Edition" to get this list ranting about it
>for weeks. Please keep in mind that there is an enthusiastic market for
>this product out there, should it ever be within your power to publish it.
Right.
Scott
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The German dragon shall find it hard to escape
to its cavernous lairs, for vengeance for it's
treason will overtake it. In the end it will become
strong again, just for a short time, but the
decimation of Normandy will be a sorry blow.
<bold>Geoffrey of Monmouth</bold>, c. 1136
<italic>The Prophecies of Merlin
</italic>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scott Nolan
nolan@erols.com
</x-rich>
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:49:48 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Avengers vs. X-Men
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 10:55 AM 12/15/97 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>> >> Wasn't there a time where she absorbed Colossus, Nightcrawler, and Kitty
>> >> Pryde's powers to beat some big baddy? Was that the Brood?
>> >
>> >That's why I explicitly referred to her trying to absorb an _adversary_.
>> >
>> Again, I didn't think this made a difference.
>
>Well, when absorbing a teamate the risk of having her personality
>supplanted isn't really an issue... they're going to have the same
>immediate goals she has, most likely.
>
Right, but it doesn't stop her from being afraid of it in the long run.
Sure, she could absorb *all* the other X-Men... but she might absorb parts
of their personalities *permanently*, which is something *most* people
would avoid.
(I believe she absorbed a good portion of Ms. Marvel's memories/personality
when she absorbed the powers, and that was permanent.)
- Jerry
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:56:37 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Special Offers to the list
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
-- GoldRushG wrote:
>
> Would the list lurkers here be in favor of occasional special offers on Hero
> products if we were to do that? Something akin to "No shipping on orders" or a
> slight discount? We're considering starting seasonal or holiday-themed sales
> and I wanted to get feedback from folks here on the idea.
>
> Mark @ GRG Do you seriously expect anybody to say NO to an offer like that?
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:58:47 -0500 (EST)
From: William K Bushway <wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: My BBB's falling apart!
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
In a message dated 97-12-15 12:17:25 EST, GoldRushG@aol.com writes:
> For a long time, ICE had a deal where you coould trade in your old BBB
> for a Champs softcover. Are there still a lot of folks left who don't
> have replacements for their old Champs hardcover?
I bought my copy the day it arrived at my local gaming shop (which
has since gone out of business). I remember saving my money for weeks to
save up the $40 or so.
My copy of the book started falling apart after the third
read-through. After it fell into more than 6 sections, I borrowed some
book-binding glue from one of my players (who's copy had also fallen
apart). Despite some pages being somewhat stuck together, It was overall
a great improvement. Until the day I left it in the sun.
After one summer afternoon's game, my group retired to the outdoor
patio for lunch. Of course, we got caught up in a discussion of the
rules, and I brought my BBB out to settle it. The gathering broke up soon
afterward, as I had to get to work.
Unfortunately, I forgot my BBB. After 8 hours of work, I finally
retrived it from the player's patio. The time in the sun had done...
something... to the glue used to rebind it. It imparted it with a
super-human stench, stong enough curl nosehairs and warp steel at ten
paces.
After subduing my BBB with kryptonite, I waved it out the window
the entire drive home. No luck. I sprayed the interior with Lysol. No
luck. I used it to press sweet-smelling flowers for potpurri. No luck.
My BBB still has that same horrible funk to this very day.
While a replacement would definitely be welcome, I had my doubts
about whether ICE would accept it. Besides, I do believe my BBB is too
evil for Registered Mail.
William K. Bushway, wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu
http://Mason.GMU.edu/~wbushway/index.html
"I'm betting that I'm just abnormal enough to survive."
-The Tick, The Tick Vs.The Breadmaster
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:01:40 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 09:34 PM 12/15/97 -0500, Scott Nolan wrote:
>>NOT! so you don't have guns? or magic? or ANYTHING? above i was talking about the
>>GENRE-BOOK, but i believe that was kinda obvious. . .
>
>Well, I thought you were being clear before, but now I've kinda lost you. So let me restate what I think we are talking about: Put -ALL- the powers and rules and mechanics in -ONE- book and call that the Hero System Rules. Put all -GENRE- related material (whether superheroes, space opera, fantasy, whatever) in separate books. -NOT- books with genre-specific rules or powers, just books with examples of how to use the core rules to create genre-specific effects.
>
>Scott
>
>
>
yes. . precisely. .. as was quite self-evident, i thought. .
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>The German dragon shall find it hard to escape
>to its cavernous lairs, for vengeance for it's
>treason will overtake it. In the end it will become
>strong again, just for a short time, but the
>decimation of Normandy will be a sorry blow.
> Geoffrey of Monmouth, c. 1136
> The Prophecies of Merlin
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Scott Nolan
>nolan@erols.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:18:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Champions
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
> I'm afraid I cannot address any more comments regarding a 5th Edition. It
> seems I misspoke earlier. I welcome your comments about what you'd like to see
> in future Hero System products from Gold Rush Games, however.
Well that just wet farts outta dead monkey's ass.
You trying to tell me that Steve P and co over at Hero are getting all hot
and bothered that you want to improve on something they have effectivly
abandoned?
Doesn't that just beat all.
Unless of course, Hero is planing on actually doing a 5th Edition (HAH!).
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:20:24 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Greetings II: Revenge of Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 11:53 AM 12/15/97 -0800, Shelley Chrystal Mactyre wrote:
>At 10:15 AM 12/15/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>>On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>
>>> Hey fellow Listers, what do you think of this? We've been languishing
>>> for years with little or no official presence on the list, and now we have
>>> a publisher (Mark), someone with a book in press (Patrick) and one with a
>>> book in process (me). Is this list getting better, or what? :-]
>>
>>That's two with books in process, Bob!
>
>Well, three, actually. =)
>
Ha? Wha? Who?
Which one?
Is this the PRIMUS update I heard about?
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:29:52 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Rook (Brian Wong) wrote:
>Filksinger wrote:
>
>> My personal request: FIX THE FALLING RULES. They are ridiculous now.
>> "The monster is right behind you. What do you do?" "I leap off this
>> building." Yuck.
>
> Speaking of which, does anybody still have issue 100 of Dragon that
>had that "Bouncing" power?
>
>My copy disapeared some time ago. I think it had three or four other new
>powers as well.
>
Bouncing? Eh? Cool... please post it.
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:36:43 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage o
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
>
>F> Uh, I can think of a number of SFX that would allow both separate and
>F> together uses of a power.
>
>I like real-world examples: M-16A2 with grenade launcher. Use the rifle,
>use the grenade launcher, or use both. The last is unwieldly, but it can
>be done.
>
Um... not safely. Usually, you have to aim the M-16/M-203 combination *up*
at an angle, in order to hit a distant target with the grenade (not really
a grenade). You would miss with the rifle. You also have to pull 2
triggers, so you're getting a *big* minus to hit (IMO).
Now, you *could*, I suppose, fire them both at the same *very close*
target, but then you get hit with the "grenade" damage as well.
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 23:08:04 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 02:21 PM 12/15/97 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>> He can't turn those 25 point peasants into tigers (233 points according to
>> the HERO Bestiary).
>
>This, too, can be done with Transform linked to Aid, or just "Summon
>Tigers, requires peasants nearby(-1/2)" if you consider the peasants to be
>effectively just scenery.
>
Um, the Aid would be very difficult to work out on that (IMO). And making
peasants scenery might work in a lot of cases, but what happens if my
*mother* the peasant was turned into a tiger? You calling my Mom scenery,
bub? lol
It cheapens the effect and importance of NPCs to call them, or treat them
like, scenery.
- Jerry
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 23:17:29 EST
Subject: Re: Art in GRG's Hero books
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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To: champ-l@omg.org
<< (Re: Steve Bryant of FASA fame)... Don't know him. >>
Steve has done work in Earthdawn & several Earthdawn supplements, Shadowrun
and others, including some illos in recent issues of Shadis magazine.
(Re: Storn Cook of Hero & Star Wars RPG fame... His stuff is getting better.
Watchers had some nice pieces. >>
San Angelo has some great ones! :) He also did the cover illo. Storn did
some recent work for ICE, too.
<< (Re: Albert Deschesne)... Sorry, his stuff has never looked any good. I
can draw better than him by a long shot. >>
You haven't seen his San Angelo illos yet. ;) If I thought his work was
substandard, I wouldn't have commissioned him to do stuff for SA. Wait 'till
you see it.
<< (Re: Louis Frank -- anyone read "Haymaker!"?)... I recognize the name, he
also did stuff in Horror Hero and GAC. Nice stuff. >>
His is more of an anime-style look, but very good. He does the illo in the
front of the introduction chapter.
(Re: Bryce Nakagawa & Greg Smith)... Both very good. .>>
I agree.
Perhaps I can post some of the illos to our web site. One or two, at least.
We've also recently contracted with a new artist to do the illo of the new
PART armor for the upcoming PART sourcebook.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 23:17:32 EST
Subject: Re: Greetings II: Revenge of Greetings
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
<< This place is really getting thick with official presence. >>
Well, I wouldn't exactly call Pat and Michelle *official* presence... ;)
Mark @ GRG
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 23:50:04 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editi
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> > Don't duck and cover just yet. :^| To begin with, the only thing really
> > wrong with the original HA isn't really something wrong with HA: its price.
> > HA costs 3 pts. because 1d6 worth of STR cost 5 points. One is left with
> > either the option of raising STR's cost, or living with HA.
>
> Raising STR's cost is really close to the top of the priority queue of
> things to be changed in 5th Edition, IMO.
I think it would also be at the top of the list of new rules ignored if
they did change the cost;)
TokyoMark
X-Sender: nolan@pop.erols.com
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 00:04:54 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Fifth Edition - Killing Attacks
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<x-rich>I've always wondered why Killing Damage costs no more than Normal Damage, when it is so clearly more effective (it is not stopped by non-resistant defenses).
Why not simply make "Killing" an advantage on normal damage? Say...+1/2? I figure that many purists'd go for +1/4 or more likely just say no, but I truly think that Killing is deadly enough to warrant a +1/2 advantage.
Could I hear some thoughts on this, please?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The German dragon shall find it hard to escape
to its cavernous lairs, for vengeance for it's
treason will overtake it. In the end it will become
strong again, just for a short time, but the
decimation of Normandy will be a sorry blow.
<bold>Geoffrey of Monmouth</bold>, c. 1136
<italic>The Prophecies of Merlin
</italic>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scott Nolan
nolan@erols.com
</x-rich>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 00:07:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> > Speaking of which, does anybody still have issue 100 of Dragon that
> >had that "Bouncing" power?
> >
> >My copy disapeared some time ago. I think it had three or four other new
> >powers as well.
> >
> Bouncing? Eh? Cool... please post it.
>
I still have this. Coincidentally, I just found this issue yesterday
while cleaning out my closet. I'll post the powers from it tommorrow
unless someone beats me to it.
TokyoMark
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:07:18 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editi
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 01:32 PM 12/14/97 -0800, James Jandebeur wrote:
>Iron Fist is a prime example of someone that the HA at least appears to be
>seperate from himself. Certainly, the Iron Fist power protects his hands from
>damage while he is using it. However, Opal needs to work on the phrasing, as
>all that is being said is that the OCV can also be used to block, this being
>open to special effect. Notice, also, that Iron Fist is an example of a
>character who's hand attack transforms his strength and skill into energy
>damage. You could argue that this is just a no range energy blast, but then,
>why not just dump HKA as well and use no range RKA's? And where does Opal say
>that you can't buy levels, if that's what you want?
>
>JAJ, Rules Philosopher
>
>
>
I'd say drop the 'seperate' bit altogether, . . it REALLY
gives the wrong impression... just say "ha can be used to block"
if you have to use it this way. . personally it sounds a lot more like
rpd to me, and what's all this ocv bonus stuff? spread equivalent?
I recon it should just be booted up to 4 points, and leave it at that.
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:18:24 -0800
From: James Jandebeur <jimalj@best.com>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> One other note. Keep in mind that, primarily because of financial
> considerations, we are looking at printing the Hero System rules book
> separately, with Champions being a genre book. Champions would have the super
> power rules in there, as well as a *much* better treatment of the genre,
> examples, no "official universe" inside (rather examples and notes on creating
> several different types, etc., but the Hero System "core" rules would be in
> the Hero System rules book.
That really sounds like almost the thing to do, anyway. However, I'm not sure
what you mean here. Are you going to seperate the powers into their own seperate
book? Powers are what put the Hero System in a class of its own. The skills and
characteristics and the rest of it are done by others, with some variation, but no
one has a unified set of abilities that you can buy to do everything with. The
powers rules are used for magic, superpowers, psionics, technology, and so on. To
seperate them from the core rules is to make Hero less unique, and to identify the
rules for powers with a single genre. I certainly hope that's not what you were
planning.
JAJ, Rules Philosopher
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:23:49 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Fifth Edition - Killing Attacks
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 12:04 AM 12/16/97 -0500, Scott Nolan wrote:
>I've always wondered why Killing Damage costs no more than Normal Damage, when it is so clearly more effective (it is not stopped by non-resistant defenses).
>
>Why not simply make "Killing" an advantage on normal damage? Say...+1/2? I figure that many purists'd go for +1/4 or more likely just say no, but I truly think that Killing is deadly enough to warrant a +1/2 advantage.
>
>Could I hear some thoughts on this, please?
>
>
>
actually the 'kill dice' advantage could be used for any power,
but most of them would not benifit from it- unless someone can think
of a cool way to use two-tiered dice rolls from things like adjustment?
And i'd call it a +1 advantage. At least. Unless you're planning
to keep the dc chart as is, in which case you're not really *doing* nething. .
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>The German dragon shall find it hard to escape
>to its cavernous lairs, for vengeance for it's
>treason will overtake it. In the end it will become
>strong again, just for a short time, but the
>decimation of Normandy will be a sorry blow.
> Geoffrey of Monmouth, c. 1136
> The Prophecies of Merlin
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Scott Nolan
>nolan@erols.com
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 00:30:10 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>
> - Interrogation should not *necessarily* be violent. In my campaign, an
> attorney can use Interrogation to prompt a witness that she doesn't think
> is telling the truth ("Need I remind you of the penalties for perjury?" and
> such). Either that, or there should be a different Skill for this.
Interrogation is not necessarily violent. Cops grilling someone are using
interrogation as well. So would the lawyer, though the more aggressive
use of the skill would get objections:)
> - Similarly seduction should not *necessarily* be sexual. A person can
> be "seduced" by wealth, fame, and power. (Arguably, of course, this could
> be represented with Bribery, though it seems to my mind closer to
> Seduction, semantically speaking.)
>
Well, seducing someone with wealth and power is purely semantics. The
skill seems to be a skill that allows you to get on friendly terms with
someone. People usually think of this as romantic, but it need not be.
TokyoMark
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 00:30:39 EST
Subject: Re: My BBB's falling apart!
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< I'm a junkie. I need a fix. When's that San Angelo thing coming out
again... >>
<LOL> Should be in January. Hey, that's next month!
Mark @ GRG
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 00:34:30 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> >Okay, for acrobatics in a fight: Jackie Chan vs Ken Lo in Drunken Master
> >II!
> >
> Say, how would one do drunken fighting, anyway? I know there's a section
> on it in Ninja Hero, under Kung Fu, and they list -2 OCV/DCV later in NH,
> but...
> Drunken Fighters get *better* when they are drunk, right? So, CSL, only
> when drunk?
I think it could vary. In Drunken Master II Jackie's Drunken Style is
called weak unless he has been drinking. If he gets too drunk he
can't fight though.
I'd say skill levels with limitations. Probably damage reduction with
limitations and maybe even a damage class or two with limitations.
TokyoMark
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 00:35:51 EST
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< - Interrogation should not *necessarily* be violent. ...an attorney can
use Interrogation to prompt a witness that she doesn't think is telling the
truth ("Need I remind you of the penalties for perjury?" and such). Either
that, or there should be a different Skill for this. >>
How about Conversation?
"This PRE-based Skill allows the character to extract information from
people with careful conversation. ...if the Skill is properly performed, the
victim won't be awarte he has divulged anything."
Sounds like typical courtroom drama to me! <LOL>
Mark @ GRG
X-Sender: nolan@pop.erols.com
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 00:37:49 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: Fifth Edition - Killing Attacks
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>>I've always wondered why Killing Damage costs no more than Normal Damage,
when it is so clearly more effective (it is not stopped by non-resistant
defenses).
>>
>>Why not simply make "Killing" an advantage on normal damage? Say...+1/2?
I figure that many purists'd go for +1/4 or more likely just say no, but I
truly think that Killing is deadly enough to warrant a +1/2 advantage.
>>
>>Could I hear some thoughts on this, please?
>
>actually the 'kill dice' advantage could be used for any power,
>but most of them would not benifit from it- unless someone can think
>of a cool way to use two-tiered dice rolls from things like adjustment?
>And i'd call it a +1 advantage. At least. Unless you're planning
>to keep the dc chart as is, in which case you're not really *doing*
nething. .
Eh, you're right. Okay, what I -really- think should happen is that
killing attacks should cost more. Plain and simple. 7 cp/DC sounds about
right to me.
Scott
X-Sender: shelley@mail.mactyre.net
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:43:57 -0800
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <shelley@mactyre.net>
Subject: Re: Greetings II: Revenge of Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 10:20 PM 12/15/97 -0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>Is this the PRIMUS update I heard about?
Yep. I'm looking at having the rough draft done in early January. It will
have a lot of the elements of my PRIMUS website, but oh-so-much more! It's
all been cleaned up, is much more extensive, and is less "Golden Hawks"
specific. Updates to my website may be on the slow side until I'm done, so
please, I hope y'all bear with me. Interestingly enough, I've found that
much of the "Ask the Golden Avenger" page has provided excellent fodder for
explaining the organization, so thanks to all of you who have sent
questions over the past twenty months!
PRIMUS can be found at http://www.mactyre.net/scm/primus.html
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
www.mactyre.net
Your children will see the stars.
--Robert A. Heinlein
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:10:45 EST
Subject: Re: PART
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< Don't forget those neat standard issue chronometers. You know, the
"PART timers". >>
::groan...::
Mark @ GRG
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:11:57 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Gameworld, ect
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Hmmm, I stumbled onto a place called 'gameworld' the other day, aparently
a semi-graphical setup for conducting rpg games in. I think the main
appeal was supposed to be a 'map' type function, which i suppose
could be utilised for champions hex-grid combat, although I assumed
it was an isometric cube grid myself. . . In any event, Has anyone come
across a nice online setup which could be used for more than just
straight text exchange? (ie easy to setup mechanics managers, graphical
representations, ect, preferably set up deliberatly with rpg's in mind)
I realise this subject was sullied last time by the "'pow-pow'"
incident, but I thought it'd make a nice change from the gld,
c5thed and xva........ Ok, I admit it, i'm getting a really
nice comp after x-time and I want to pick your brains for
data *g*
PS: and what's this i hear about ultima going online? what's next, 60
player quake? *l*
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:14:18 EST
Subject: Killing Attacks in 4th Ed.
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< So you are saying that 1 Damage Class would equal 3d6 K (killing) >>
I'm not sure I get it either. :/ I foyu chasnge the rice scale for KAs,
wouldn't you necessarily have to change the structure of K Defenses, too?
Mark @ GRG
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 00:23:52 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
Subject: Art?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
If a potental artiat was putting together a package of samples for you, what
would you suggest he put in it?
Do you look at on-line art pages?
Would you rather have a disk of scanned in stuff or photocopies?
What kind of assignments are you looking of art for?
Inquiring artists want to know...
Michael
Rising Force Publications
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:27:22 EST
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< Then such a ruling had better be clearly stated in the text for the
skill.>>
It's not a ruling, people, it's a *sugegstion*.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:32:31 EST
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: My BBB's falling apart!
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< I meant, of course, that it has to *weight* several factors. Oi! I need to
get more sleep! >>
Apparently I still didn't get enough sleep. Let's try this again -- it has
to WEIGH several factors, not *weight* several factors. Boy, oh boy...
And I call myself an *editor*?
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:37:34 EST
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< As I learned from a disastrous engagement, things that seem too good to be
true usually are. Oh, well, I'm sure you're feeling like you put your foot in
your mouth, Mark. Don't worry too much about it - I'm sure most here will
understand that it was an unintended error, and besides, all it takes is
anybody using the term "5th Edition" to get this list ranting about it for
weeks. Please keep in mind that there is an enthusiastic market for this
product out there, should it ever be within your power to publish it. >>
I can niether confirm nor deny that such a product is in the planning
stages. ::Sigh:: I am no longer at liberty to discuss this topic.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:43:52 EST
Subject: Re: Champions
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< Well that just wet farts outta dead monkey's... >>
<LOL> Now THAT'S a descriptive if I ever read one!
<< You trying to tell me that Steve P and co over at Hero are getting all hot
and bothered that you want to improve on something they have effectivly
abandoned? >>
No, that is definitely NOT what I am trying to tell you.
<< Doesn't that just beat all. >>
No, it doesn't, because you have misinterpreted my message. **Don't** read
anything into this, folks. Do NOT let yourselves become all doom and gloomy
again! You were so HAPPY for a spell. Please continue this thought process!
All is not lost!
<< Unless of course, Hero is planing on actually doing a 5th Edition (HAH!).
>>
I can neither confirm nor deny that such a product is in the planning
stages. ::Sigh:: I am no longer at liberty to discuss this topic.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:49:13 EST
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
<< Seriously, the fact that there won't be one (they say...) doesn't mean that
we shouldn't talk about how the current game could be better. >>
I can niether confirm nor deny that such a product is in the planning
stages. I am no longer at liberty to discuss this topic.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:50:43 EST
Subject: Re: Golden Age hero art
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< I still say that Madame Moonlight has one of the best costume designs in
all of the Champions books.>>
I'm going to have to go back and look at that again...
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:50:44 EST
Subject: Pirate Hero
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< I'd really buy that. GRG, are you listening? There may be some
interest in reviving Pirate Hero. >>
Don't tell me. Tell the author(s)! I don't go hunting down people to write
opur products. They send us proposals, and Hero (and myself) must approve
them. *Then* we discuss publishing the book. Until then, all it is is a good
idea. ;)
Mark @ GRG
From: Pat10355 <Pat10355@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:53:06 EST
Subject: Re: Greetings II: Revenge of Greetings
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
In a message dated 97-12-15 17:29:54 EST, redbf@ldd.net writes:
<< I am pretty new to this list as well and have been enjoying it ever
since. I downloaded your first two chapters of the Gold Rush Games
Website and me and my group took a session to read it.
Wow!! Great job. We all loved the quotes you used and can't wait to
play it. I wish it was January now. >>
Thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed the draft preview. You might be interested to
know that the final draft of those two chapters includes an expanded timeline,
clarified description of the flux and a few additional quotes.
Then there's the whole rest of the book, of course. :)
Patrick Sweeney
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 23:10:37 -0800
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On Monday, December 15, 1997 5:08 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> It took a little while, but I've finally come up with a handful of
the
>specific suggestions (most of them minor, and not all of them my own)
that
>I have for adjusting the Hero System:
>
> - Interrogation should not *necessarily* be violent. In my
campaign, an
>attorney can use Interrogation to prompt a witness that she doesn't
think
>is telling the truth ("Need I remind you of the penalties for
perjury?" and
>such). Either that, or there should be a different Skill for this.
I agree. Even the standard Interrogation need not include actual
torture. A friend of mine who was a prisoner-of-war interrogator
during Viet Nam used to tell me how you could break a person, without
ever violating the Geneva Convention. _None_ of the techniques
mentioned involved actual torture, in the physical sense.
> - Similarly seduction should not *necessarily* be sexual. A
person can
>be "seduced" by wealth, fame, and power. (Arguably, of course, this
could
>be represented with Bribery, though it seems to my mind closer to
>Seduction, semantically speaking.)
Originally, Seduction was the skill of making friends and becoming
trusted. Sex was an extention of this, role played. (I assume. They
never mentioned it.) I have a super hero in my present PBEM game who
is a priest in his SecretID. I gave him seduction based upon the
assumption that he could make friends with almost _anyone_, even if
they were enemies in spite of it all.
<snip>
> - Extra Limbs should go back to having a cost per limb. My own
>structure is 5 points for two arms, with reduced costs for lesser
utility
>(3 points for one arm, 3 for a pair of tentacles, 1 for a single
tentacle
>or prehensile tail).
I'm split on this one. Extra Limbs doesn't add enough to be worth
this, and I don't want that to change. However, I never liked the
unlimited number of limbs rule, either.
How about a x2 limbs for a low cost? This would allow squids, hundred
armed giants, etc, without costing excessively.
<snip>
> - Hand-to-Hand Attack should *not* be omitted; this would leave us
with
>the old kludge of "+X STR, Only for Damage." Use Opal's version
instead.
Personally, I prefer the version at
www.herogames.com/herogames/energyblast.html
<snip>
> - Transform should be more specifically described as well,
especially in
>terms of what constitutes Cosmetic, Minor, and Major Transforms. (I
tend
>to go with this: if it doesn't affect the character sheet, it's
Cosmetic;
>if it shifts points around on the sheet or alters specific Powers but
>doesn't change the totals, it's Minor; if it changes point totals,
it's
>Major.)
I like this. Add an additional level to Transform, for Transformations
that are _extremely_ beneficial to the attacker. "Turn human into
frog" shouldn't cost the same as "Turn human into my willing slave".
<snip>
> - Explosion should be +3/4 so it doesn't cost the same as AE: One
Hex.
>(The old method of making AE: One Hex cost +1/4 wouldn't work,
because then
>it would hit the proverbial floor if it's Nonselective.) The
Selective
>Target and Nonselective Target options for AE should also be
available.
Agree about the Selective and Non-selective, but not the Advantage's
value. The ability to hit one hex but not the one next to it is
roughly equivallent to the ability to create an explosive effect. One
is good for agents, the other good for villains near normals or
explosives.
<snip>
In general, I have to agree, in principle at least, with everything
Bob has said. This is subject to good refutations, of course.
Filksinger
X-Sender: nolan@pop.erols.com
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 02:13:05 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: Champions
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
><< You trying to tell me that Steve P and co over at Hero are getting all hot
>and bothered that you want to improve on something they have effectivly
>abandoned? >>
>
> No, that is definitely NOT what I am trying to tell you.
>
><< Doesn't that just beat all. >>
>
> No, it doesn't, because you have misinterpreted my message. **Don't** read
>anything into this, folks. Do NOT let yourselves become all doom and gloomy
>again! You were so HAPPY for a spell. Please continue this thought process!
>All is not lost!
>
><< Unless of course, Hero is planing on actually doing a 5th Edition (HAH!).
>>>
>
> I can neither confirm nor deny that such a product is in the planning
>stages. ::Sigh:: I am no longer at liberty to discuss this topic.
>
> Mark @ GRG
In other words: keep talking about what you'd like to see in an
-hypothetical- 5th Edition. Just -don't- blame it on Mark.
Wink, nudge.
Scott
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Storm, Iron Man and the wimpy X-Men
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 23:15:49 -0800
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On Monday, December 15, 1997 5:34 AM, Curtis Gibson wrote:
<snip>
>Then there is the one fight I remember that gave me new respect for
>spidey. I don't recall the set up, but he was being chased by
Firelord
>(the Herald of Galactus). He tried to get help from every major
>superteam in NYC, then when none of them were in, finally turned on
>Firelord and started to fight him. When all of the teams that he had
>gone to for help showed up, there was the unconcious form of Firelord
>with Spidey over him, gasping for breath. The reaction shots of the
>Avengers and FF at Spiderman having taken out a herald of Galactus is
>pricelss.
I love it! <G>
I always liked the idea that Spidey, even if he didn't have the raw
power of many of them, was still one of the top heroes of the Marvel
Universe, on a par (in some senses) with Thor, Iron Man, or, possibly,
the Silver Surfer.
Filksinger
X-Sender: nolan@pop.erols.com
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 02:18:17 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: Needed: Mentalist Inspiration
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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>I was hoping the folks on this list could help with a character design. I've
>been invited to join an ongoing Champions game, and the other player want
me to
>create a mentalist to help round out their party. Now, I've been playing and
>GMing in the Hero System for years, but I've never much liked mentalists.
So, I
>want some unconventional suggestions for mentalism powers to give me some
>inspiration. The concepts I've come up with so far (I do concepts first,
build
>system after) are:
All I can say from personal experience is: Make sure that you've got
-some- way to affect non-thinking opponents, even if it is not to damage
them. I've been bored through way too many fights to ever make that
mistake again. Psychokinesis is one way. There are plenty of others!
>PS: What does LOL stand for anyway?
"Laughing out Loud".
Related to ROTFL: Rolling on the Floor Laughing.
Scott
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 02:48:38 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>> > And as for powers with charges -- you blew a charge, plain and
>> >simple, by using the power. You're down one charge and there ain't
>> no way
>> >I'm letting an argument get that back.
>>
>> Indeed. "You just ran out of bullets in your six-shooter." "No, that
>> first shot was a show of force."
>>
>> THWAP! (Sound of BBB (softcover) hitting player's head.)
>
>
> I'd prefer a large handful of dice, myself . . .
>
But then they don't make that satisfying "THWAP!" sound... <g>
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 03:02:43 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Mark @ GRG wrote:
><< Seriously, the fact that there won't be one (they say...) doesn't mean
that
>we shouldn't talk about how the current game could be better. >>
>
> I can niether confirm nor deny that such a product is in the planning
>stages. I am no longer at liberty to discuss this topic.
>
Once more, this time with feeling...
lol
Actually, you're getting the hang of that, now. That's 3 messages in a
row. : )
- Jerry
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 03:06:07 EST
Subject: Re: My BBB's falling apart!
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< My BBB hasn't started to disintegrate yet. >>
Just so everyone understands, by BBB I mean the old hardback edition, not
the new "Champiojns Deluxe" hardback.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 03:14:49 EST
Subject: Re: My BBB's falling apart!
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
<< While a replacement would definitely be welcome, I had my doubts about
whether ICE would accept it.>>
They won't, but we will. Assuming that the damage is from faulty binding
(and not from dropping it in a cesspool <G>)...
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 03:19:19 EST
Subject: Re: I stand chastised
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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<< I apologize for any hurt feelings out there. I realize that anything beyond
my first reply would have this effect. I hope my fellow Christians on the list
would understand the source of my zeal. The Bible says contend for the Faith.
The discussion has gone to private email.>>
No hurt feelings or offense taken here, Kev. Marge and I be Christians, too.
:)
Mark @ GRG
X-Sender: nolan@pop.erols.com
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 03:35:49 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: 5th edition cont'd
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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>> IMAGES: no area effected... buy an area effect on it to increase the area,
>> and use those rules to make it larger...
>> So just how big of an image to you create with the base power. (Try
>reading the cricket scores on a TV screen the size of a postage stamp and
I'll
>show you a waste of time.)
Of course, the same might be said for reading cricket scores of -any- size...
Scott
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: How do I buy these abilites??
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:41:24 -0800
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On Wednesday, December 10, 1997 6:06 AM, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
<snip>
>For (b), I would built it as FTL, with the "only on energy currents"
>limitation, and an advantage that it can work in an atmosphere. This
>advantage isn't exactly orthodox; I tend to make up advantages
without the
>sanction of the rules. It should also be linked to Desolid.
>
>The alternative is to build it as a Teleport. Many people feel this
is
>more legitimate, though I don't know why ignoring the description of
>teleport as travel between points without crossing the intervening
space
>is any more legitimate than ignoring the restriction that FTL doesn't
work
>in an atmosphere.
While I don't necessarily disagree, there is a specific reason why the
second is legitimate and the first is not. The first a) does something
specifically forbidden, and b) creates a new Advantage. The second a)
changes the power in a way not forbidden, and b) creates a new
Limitation. New Limitations are strictly kosher; new advantages are
not.
>Actually, I never liked that blanket ruling on FTL. The fact of the
matter
>is that people do travel FTL (or at least lightspeed) within the
>atmosphere in comics, and a superhero game should have a mechanism
for
>doing so. As your example indicates, it need not be unbalancing to
game
>play.
Except that it is a much cheaper way to buy Teleportation, and with
much greater range as well. By duplicating an existing power _and_
making it much cheaper to boot, you are violating at least two basic
rules for creating new constructs: don't duplicate existing Powers,
and if two ways of doing something exist, the more expensive one is
probably the way to go.
By using Desolidification and FTL, you are _precisely_ duplicating
Teleportation. You are more cheaply creating _exactly_ a power that
_already exists_.
I'm not a stickler for the rules, either as written or as I interpret
them, but that is going a bit far.
OTOH, I definitely _do_ want a much cheaper way of traveling long
distances, with Flight or Teleportation.
Filksinger
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 02:15:34 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Special Offers to the list
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> << No darnit! I refuse to get a discount! In fact, I'm going to pay double, no
> make that triple, heck. TEN times the cover price!!!! >>
>
> I think you have us mixed up with another company... ;)
What? This isn't Games Workshop? No Warhammer?
You mean I've been on the wrong list all this time???
:)
Rook
Super Hero Links Page:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 02:33:49 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> >
> Were you the one who said the same about Limited? That debating Linked was
> 'moot,' because you can simply redefine it with the 'Limited' Limitation?
> Doesn't that mean we could save some space in the book by not printing any
> Advantages/Limitations *besides* Advantaged and Limited?
Works for me. Do that then provide some samples like limitd does currently.
Course I agreed with an idea proposed for Fuzion at one point which was to change
all
powers to simply a description with a number, then a "Use Power" skill to
manipulate it
to get whatever game mechanic needed for the special effect at hand.
Smething like:
Ice Powers 10
Magnetic Powers 15
Then a list of different mechanics that could achieved with it. Effectivly making
every power a VPP of
sorts.
But that's a Fuzion/Instant Fuzion topic, or was, I stopped reading that list a
while back.
--
Rook
Super Hero Links Page:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 03:07:27 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Greetings II: Revenge of Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre wrote:
> At 10:20 PM 12/15/97 -0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
> >Is this the PRIMUS update I heard about?
>
> Yep. I'm looking at having the rough draft done in early January. It will
> have a lot of the elements of my PRIMUS website, but oh-so-much more! It's
> all been cleaned up, is much more extensive, and is less "Golden Hawks"
> specific. Updates to my website may be on the slow side until I'm done, so
> please, I hope y'all bear with me. Interestingly enough, I've found that
> much of the "Ask the Golden Avenger" page has provided excellent fodder for
> explaining the organization, so thanks to all of you who have sent
> questions over the past twenty months!
Are you also downgrading the power level of them?
The stuff you have on your website is very potent. But then I suspect that's
only because it was made for a game where the PC's come in at 400 points (or
was it 300?).
As 'Agents', Primus should be weaker than the Heroes. Only fits the genre.
Personally, I've always felt the current published versions were a little too
powerful. But then I'm
a member of the 'one hit to go down' school of Agent thinking.
--
Rook
Super Hero Links Page:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 03:21:12 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: My BBB's falling apart!
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On 12/14/97 6:03 PM, GoldRushG (GoldRushG@aol.com) Said:
>Are there still a lot of folks left who don't have
>replacements for their old Champs hardcover?
My C4 hardcover is currently in a three-ring binder. As mentioned
before, I love the cover art, so the front and back covers are
duct-taped onto the front and back covers (respectively) of the binder.
It's actually a pretty useful configuration; since I don't use any
published characters from anywhere without rewriting them - if only to
accommodate my myriad house rules - I simply insert the character sheets
with my versions in the book next to the source page, so they are still
locatable by the book's index (like anybody ever really uses the index
anymore....)
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 03:28:37 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Special Offers to the list
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
GoldRushG wrote:
>
> Would the list lurkers here be in favor of occasional special offers on Hero
> products if we were to do that? Something akin to "No shipping on orders" or a
> slight discount? We're considering starting seasonal or holiday-themed sales
> and I wanted to get feedback from folks here on the idea.
>
> Mark @ GRG
Hey, that works for me! Where do I sign? I really like the 'no
shipping' idea.
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
From: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net (Mike Lehmann)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 03:58:07 -0800
Organization: Terminal BBS (403)327-9731
Subject: That's What I Want...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
-=> Quoting John and Ron Prins to Mike Lehmann <=-
>Hiya John. Long time, no argue... :)
JaRP> Heh. How long ago was that really big row between us? ^_^ Year and a
JaRP> half?
Something like that. I think the GLD had something to do about it... <g>
> JaRP> Now, back to Absorption acting in a 'damage transformation' manner.
> JaRP> Watch how easy this is: for every die of Absorption, you REMOVE one DC
> JaRP> of damage from the attack.
>Personally, I think this is what Damage Reduction was intended for, but
>different strokes...
JaRP> Yeah, it does bear some similarities, doesn't it? Though Damage
JaRP> Reduction takes place after all defenses apply, where as that Abs.
JaRP> construct takes place before.
Which, IMO, makes it dangerous to just cut the dice. When they give 10
PD/ED (base + Force Field/extra defense) to the average blaster, that 8
dice cutdown (from 10d6 to 2d6) makes you virtually immune to damage.
I might like to have such a power, but I'd hate to fight someone with
it. :)
>I have also been wondering about the utility of Absorption lately, and I
>had a few ideas for house rulings:
> 1) The 5 points/d6 stands, but it now converts from STUN damage to CPs;
JaRP> Oik. Too much. Then it really is Aid, just under another name.
As I said, I operate under the assumption that Absorption automatically
(as in -0 Limitation) is restricted to one attack form (such as fire),
to keep it at least moderately fair...
> 2) The power works the same as in the book, but is now 3 points/d6
> (like Dispel);
JaRP> Fairer.
> 3) The power is bought like John suggested, but the dice are rolled to
> conter the attack, STUN to STUN, BODY to BODY. The ability to
> counter out dice, IMO, is pretty potent;
JaRP> Possibly, and this isn't such a bad idea; as it stands you have to
JaRP> roll Absorption dice anyways, so it's not adding any extra rolls, is
JaRP> it?
Nope. The only problem I foresee is someone might try to modify it into
that "flame shield" power... ;)
>I'm seriously looking at #1, primarily because, as John stated, you
>don't get enough out of regular Absorption to make it worthwhile... And
JaRP> I was referring to not getting enough 'defense' out of Armor 'only up
JaRP> to Absorption roll', though Absorption does, on average, provide only
JaRP> 1/3 to 1/4 the CP gain as an equivalent cost Aid.
I prefer to go with PD/ED bought without the "only up to Absorption
roll". Otherwise, you're opening yourself up to a world of hurt...
>As an aside, does anyone else here restrict the SFX of attacks that
>someone's Damage Reduction/Absorption/etc. can function against (ie
>fire, cold, punches, etc.) rather than just Energy/Physical damage?
JaRP> Sure. IIRC, the Damage Reduction writeup gives specific examples -
JaRP> "Only vs. Fire/Heat, (-1)". No reason Absorption shouldn't do the same.
But I mean inherently restricted (-0 limitation). PD/ED is varied enough
as is to warrant a -1 for fire, but I require that powers like DR,
Absorption, etc. to be specific to an attack form.
Not that the book goes this way; I know it doesn't. Just wondering if
anyone else goes about it this way.
GM: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net | Justice Krewe
Web: http://www.dfw.net/~aronhead/justice_krewe.html | The Illuminators
Short waiting list for new players | Enigma Watch
Lurkers welcome (Write to me!) | KnightWatch
... This is where Aldo Farnese got his start - Tom on credits
~~~ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
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From: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net (Mike Lehmann)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 04:22:22 -0800
Organization: Terminal BBS (403)327-9731
Subject: That's What I Want...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
-=> Quoting John and Ron Prins to Mike Lehmann <=-
JaRP> Crap, you're right. Silly me, going off confusing the Entangle/Flash
JaRP> method of accounting with Absorption. What I should have said was "low
JaRP> likelyhood of actually getting the full use out your Absorption total
JaRP> (unless it's small), because in order for that to happen you'd have to
JaRP> take several hits over the course of your phase." Especially with the
JaRP> 'no defense' method, where getting hit multiple times is bad, very bad.
Particularly if those attacks count as Coordinated.
JaRP> Something tells me that, on average, it's a lot better to buy 4D6
JaRP> Absorption and screeds of +Capacity than 8D6 Absorption, unless you can
JaRP> soak a _lot_ of fire over a short period.
Here's a portion of one of my old players who had (impact/kinetic)
Absorption as a primary power, that might illustrate using the power:
8 Damage Resistance (10 PD/10 ED, IIF Armored Costume) 0 -
20 25 PD (only vs. impact-type attacks) 0 -
56 Absorption (3d6, Max. 20, To STR 1:1, CON 1:2, BODY 1:2, 0 -
REC 1:2, END 2:1, STUN 1:1, Fade 5 points per 5 minutes)
The character could peak at 40 STR, 25 CON, 25 BODY, 20 REC, 70 END and
70 STUN. Of course, this included the +2 for multiple stats gaining the
points at once, and +1/2 for the bought-down fade rate. He effectively
had 15PD/10rPD, 15ED/15rED, +25 PD vs. impact-type attacks (a -1/4
limitation at best)...
It was easy to reach maximum potential quickly, because the max was low
and each stat got the same points.
This type of construction, of course, is potentially easy to abuse because all powers & stats could be under the umbrella of the +2 Advantage.
If we went with 3 points/d6, the cost would be 35 points. Significant
savings.
Does anything think that would be "too significant"?
GM: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net | Justice Krewe
Web: http://www.dfw.net/~aronhead/justice_krewe.html | The Illuminators
Short waiting list for new players | Enigma Watch
Lurkers welcome (Write to me!) | KnightWatch
... The worst ice cream flavor is probably squirrel.
~~~ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
JaRP> to Absorption roll', though A
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internet: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net <<<<<<<<<<<
The TERMINAL BBS Fidonet; 1:358/17
Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada 1:358/18
This message was processed by NetXpres (403)327-9741
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Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 05:10:08 -0800 (PST)
From: "Captain D.A. Gold" <cptgold@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Special Offers to the list
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
---Filksinger wrote:
>
> On Sunday, December 14, 1997 3:41 PM, GoldRushG wrote:
>
>
> > Would the list lurkers here be in favor of occasional special
> offers on Hero
> >products if we were to do that? Something akin to "No shipping on
> orders" or a
> >slight discount? We're considering starting seasonal or
> holiday-themed sales
> >and I wanted to get feedback from folks here on the idea.
>
>
> Thank you very much for actually _asking_. Since you did ask, I'd say
> yes, otherwise....
>
> Filksinger
>
>
>
Yes, I would be interested. We have a fanatical (in a nice way)
Champions following and would probably take an interest in any special
offers.
On another note, would you be interested in any additional
playtesters, convention reps, and all around good guys (and gals) in
the Columbus/Dayton, Ohio area?
==
Captain D.A. Gold
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 97 13:52:03
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:37:34 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< As I learned from a disastrous engagement, things that seem too good to be
>true usually are. Oh, well, I'm sure you're feeling like you put your foot in
>your mouth, Mark. Don't worry too much about it - I'm sure most here will
>understand that it was an unintended error, and besides, all it takes is
>anybody using the term "5th Edition" to get this list ranting about it for
>weeks. Please keep in mind that there is an enthusiastic market for this
>product out there, should it ever be within your power to publish it. >>
>
> I can niether confirm nor deny that such a product is in the planning
>stages. ::Sigh:: I am no longer at liberty to discuss this topic.
That's ok, we'll still discuss it to death. Just sit back and giggle.
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:03:35 -0600
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net
Organization: Redbow Antiques
Subject: Re: Champions 5th edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> At 12:15 PM 12/15/97 -0600, bobby farris wrote:
> >At the risk of getting lynched I would like to say that one thing
> >Fuzion did that I would like to see in a 5th edition of Champions is
> the change in the Damage class table.
> > Make Damage class three killing attack be 3d6K not 1d6K. It would
> make it a lot less confusing.
> > I think it wouldn't destroy any 4th edition characters just make it
> >where you had to do a little math before you used them(math is
> something no Champions player should have a problem with).
Scott Nolan wrote
> I disagree, vehemently. The 'ton's 'o dice' paradigm is bad enough
> without sucking in killing damage, too.
>
> First, if the math of conversion doesn't confuse you, then the 3DC= 1
> die killing shouldn't be too very taxing, either.
>
> Second, the more dice you roll, the less random the result. You are
> far more likely to get an average result on, say 6d6 than you are on
> 2d6. Randomness is critical, especially at the lower end of power,
> where most killing attacks get used.
>
> Those of you with characters that do 24d6 damage should just consider
> applying 84 stun and 24 body every time and save your wrists from all
> that dice rolling.
I don't totally disagree with you, however I was wondering if you think
that normal damage class should be taken down to 1d6=1DC?
What about the stun lottery for killing attacks? I think they should
ditch that too.
Subject: Re: Germania!
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-6,9-11
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:05:03 EST
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>>I have fiendish plans for the PCs in my Pulp campaign regarding
>Germania,
>>that sturdy embodiment of Germanic womanhood from GAC. However, I
>hate the
>>name. Anybody have a better one for this amply-built refugee from a
>>Wagnerian opera?
As I recall, in her Secret ID she had some sort of "motherhood" award
(don't have the book handy right now), so how about Erda (mother of the
Valkyries)?
Leah
Subject: Green Hornet conversion
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-3,7-8,14-15,23-27
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:05:03 EST
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Any other old-radio fans on the list? I'm working on converting the
radio/movie serial version of the Green Hornet to Hero System, and have
hit a couple snags:
1. I know the Black Beauty routinely outran cop cars, but did they ever
decide just how fast it went? Also, in the serials it had better
cornering than many other cars, what would be the best way to handle
that?
2. The gas gun. The example of a gas attack in the rulebook is NND,
defense Life Support or holding breath. So far, I haven't found a single
time when someone was able to hold their breath and avoid passing out
from the Hornet's gas, so NND wouldn't be appropriate here. Would AVLD,
defense Life Support work, or should I bite the bullet and make it one
heck of a STUN Drain?
3. An obvious disad for the Hornet is Reputation 14-. However, in his
Secret ID Britt Reid is (locally) famous -- noted newspaper publisher,
wealthy, seen in all the best clubs. I have several radio episodes on
tape with some version of "I can't visit him as the Hornet, he knows me
as Britt Reid and might recognize me" in the dialogue. Buying Reputation
twice, once for Reid's reputation and once for the Hornet's, feels like
cheating. Would it be legit to buy Reputation once and have two
different definitions of what the Reputation is?
Thanks.
Leah
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:11:39 -0600
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net
Organization: Redbow Antiques
Subject: Re: Champions 5th edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Sparx wrote:
>
> So you are saying that 1 Damage Class would equal 3d6 K (killing) meaning it would translate to 9d6 Normal? Yes, I can see that ruining a lot of 4th Edition characters. The amount of power they would get for just one damage class would be horrible. Or am I misunderstanding you somewhere here? So now I would have to buy 1/3 Damage class just to get 3d6 Normal damage or 1/9 Damage Class to equal 1 dice of normal damage?
To much math for me. Like I said, please explain further if I'm
confused to what you are saying. Otherwise, maybe I'm pointing something
out here that would suggest not making 1 Damage Class equal to 3d6
Killing. Take it easy and talk at you later.
>
> Sparx
Let me explain. I think 1DC should equal 1d6 normal dice and 1d6
killing dice. Obvioulsy the cost of Killing dice would still be 15pts
per die and the cost of normal dice would be 5 per die.
To compensate for the increased Killing dice the a characters body
would have to raised by a multiplication factor.
It would be just as easy to convert 4th edition characters to my system
as it would is to convert 4th edition to Fuzion
This is just an idea. I just want to see what others think. Scott Nolan
did bring up an idea that increasing the killing dice would get rid of
some of the randomness and I am still thinking about this.
X-Sender: naneiden@iswest.com
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 06:11:39 -0800
From: Nic Neidenbach <naneiden@iswest.com>
Subject: Re: Green Hornet conversion
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 09:05 AM 12/16/97 EST, llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts) wrote:
>
>
>3. An obvious disad for the Hornet is Reputation 14-. However, in his
>Secret ID Britt Reid is (locally) famous -- noted newspaper publisher,
>wealthy, seen in all the best clubs. I have several radio episodes on
>tape with some version of "I can't visit him as the Hornet, he knows me
>as Britt Reid and might recognize me" in the dialogue. Buying Reputation
>twice, once for Reid's reputation and once for the Hornet's, feels like
>cheating. Would it be legit to buy Reputation once and have two
>different definitions of what the Reputation is?
Nah, it's not cheating.
As long as he has the disadvantage Secret ID, there is nothing wrong with
buying him two reputations, one for each ID. If for some reason, his ID was
publicly revealed, he'd have to not only pay off the Secret ID, but he'd
have to combine the two Reps into one.
At least, that's how I'd do it. :)
-Nic
+------------------------------------------------------+
| naneiden@iswest.com |
| Justice, Like Lightning, Thunderbolts! |
| http://www.iswest.com/~naneiden/comics/thunder.html |
| Costumed Heroines |
| http://www.iswest.com/~naneiden/comics/ |
+------------------------------------------------------+
X-Sender: gold_phoenix@pop.cyberun.net
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:12:26 -0400
From: "E. David Miller" <gold_phoenix@cyberun.net>
Subject: Re: Needed: Mentalist Inspiration
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 1:59 AM +0000 12/16/97, Stirling Westrup wrote:
>I was hoping the folks on this list could help with a character design. I've
>been invited to join an ongoing Champions game, and the other player want
>me to
>create a mentalist to help round out their party. Now, I've been playing and
>GMing in the Hero System for years, but I've never much liked mentalists.
>So, I
>want some unconventional suggestions for mentalism powers to give me some
>inspiration. The concepts I've come up with so far (I do concepts first,
>build
>system after) are:
>
>
>Mental Invisibility.
>Induced Psychometry
>Mental Transform
>Skill Drain
> Stirling Westrup
Some other powers I might suggest would include:
Psionic Power Blocking:
The mentalist analyzes a character's mind and the way their powers
function in regards to their mind. With many (though admittedly not all)
characters, their powers are activated by their minds. With this power,
the mentalist reaches into that part of the target's mind and "switches"
their powers off, or blocks them from being accessed.
Telepathic Combat Anticipation:
The mentalist is constantly aware of the minds of the combatants
around him, on a basic level, and as such can anticipate their moves and
actions in combat.
Telepathic Danger Sense:
This one may be obvious, but I have rarely actually seen it taken,
regardless of how useful it can be. The mentalist is aware of strong
emotions and impulses around him or her, and as such has a very good chance
of being aware of an impending attack upon him or herself or someone
nearby, before it actually happens.
Astral Travel:
Great for the mentalist who is otherwise something of a combat
wuss, this little trick can allow for much better travel, often into
hazardous areas and situations. One could even posit that the mentalist
wraps his or her whole body in flows from the Astral plane, going there
physically, and thusly being able to come out physically wherever they
reach. Depending upon GMs, you might even be able to reduce or negate the
needed Affects Real World advantage on your powers, on the basis that your
desolid leaves you open to mental attacks plus one other SPX, and since you
are not guarded against mental powers, your mental powers should not be so
hard to make work on the real world. See what the GM thinks of the Spirit
rules (Hero Almanac 1, or Horror Hero). Then buy extradimensional travel
to the Astral, as well as your desolid.
Mental Attacks:
Depending upon how dark of an image you want to have, for your team
or your character, you might want to consider building your mental attacks
the slightly more expensive way, to allow them the opportunity to do body
damage, thusly frying the synapses in the brain, etc. If doing damage
isn't really your style, think about trying AOE selective target. Either
method can turn your average sniper mentalist into a combatant everyone
gets to see, and most get to feel.
Just some ideas. Hope they help. I have more, if you decide you want them.
David Miller
___________________________________________________________________________
| gold_phoenix@-> |There are 3 temporal dimensions, just as there are 3 |
| ->cyberun.net |spatial; T, the passage of time; Tau, the changes in |
|-------------------|possible outcomes/decisions; Teh, the alternate bases|
| E. David Miller |of reality. Thus, all that ever has been dreamed, |
|-------------------|IS, somewhen. And somewhen, we are all simply a |
|Faith, and Dreams. |dream. Or, by perspective, a nightmare. |
|___________________|_____________________________________________________|
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:15:03 -0600
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net
Organization: Redbow Antiques
Subject: Re: Champions 5th edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Rook wrote:
Are you therefore saying multiply all current killing attack by 3?
making them much more lethal (as fuzion does). Or making 1 kDC = 3 nDC?
>
> As opposed to the current system of 1DC=1DC=1dn=5pts worth of killing attack (3DC=3DC=3dn=1dk)
>
> Rook
Ummm...yeah. Of course there would have to be an increase in the
characters Body. I just don't care that much for the current system.
From: "\"John Desmarais\" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
\"Michael Surbrook\"" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 97 14:17:23
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Art in GRG's Hero books
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:49:50 -0500 (EST), Michael Surbrook wrote:
>On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
>
>> You haven't seen his San Angelo illos yet. ;) If I thought his work was
>> substandard, I wouldn't have commissioned him to do stuff for SA. Wait 'till
>> you see it.
>
><cough> No... but I have seen his stuff from Mystic Masters and Kingdom of
>Champions, and I have always thought his material was pretty rotten.
But that was almost a decade ago. One would assume that he's improved since then.
X-Sender: bastet@pop.iquest.net
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:19:44 -0500
From: TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net>
Subject: Dragon #100 Powers
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
These powers and skills were first published in Dragon Magazine #100,
waaaaay back in 1985. The acticle is by Steven Maurer.
News Skills
Bouncing 5 for INT roll / +1 for 2
This is the skill for finding structures in the inner city against which a
character may bounce. Scenery such as flagpoles and telephone wires can be
found with a successful use of this skill. An acrobatic roll is still
necessary to bounce against the item or to keep from falling from it. If
the roll is made, the character may leap five times the normal distance
allowed for the character's strength; characters with superleap add this
extra distance to the end of their normal leap distance. Bouncing is a
favorite skill among street heros.
Combat Luck 15 points per 1D6
Combat luck is just like normal Luck, except that it is three times as
expensive and allows for three die rolls instead of one. Unlike luck,
Combat Luck works even when the character is winning in combat or in
situations where the character doesn't need it. Combat Luck is usually a
manifestation of some other super power the character possesses; the
characters are usually not just 'super lucky' . An example of Combat Luck
is a character blessed by some mystical power or who has a form of
universal awareness of his surroundings.
Extra Life 4 each
For every 4 permanent experience points, a character may buy an Extra
Life. An Extra Life is a one use 3d6 Luck roll that's assumed to come out
all 6's. Once used, an Extra Life disappears. The experience that bouhgt
it disappears too. Extra Lives are a form of super hero insurance. they
allow characters hit with a mortal blow to somehow escape death, but they
must be bought before needed.
New Powers
Domination 2D6 for 15
This EGO based attack is a combination of telepathy and mind control. It
allows the character to impose his his consciousness over a victim and take
control of the character's body. The dice are tallied and applied against
the target as noted below. Each point of Ego Defense reduces the total
before it is compared on the chart.
Ego Mult. Domination Effect
1x No effect
2x The wielder can control the target's normal movements and use the
senses they share in common. The wielder must stand motionless but the
target can perform a normal half move.
3x As above but the wielder can control the target's powers, including
speach (The power of speach, which edition was this in? -- Mark's
comments;) that the two have in common. The wielder must divide a full
move between himself and the target.
Only one may attack.
4x As above but the wielder can control all the target's powers.
Both the wielder and the target may make a full move, but only
one may attack.
When one character dominates another, all skills the victim possesses are
lost for as long as the Domination lasts. The speed of the victim becomes
that of the attacker. A conscious victim may fight the domination by
pushing ego defense.
Enragement 5 per 1D6
This EGO based power is a specialized form of mind control combined with
mental illusions. It takes advantage of the violent tendencies that some
characters have. When an ego attack is successful, the wielder rolls the
number of dice of Enragement and compares the total with the EGO of the
target on the following table.
EGO mult Enragement Effect
1x Roll an EGO roll; upon failure, target rolls the most commonly
occuring Berserk he has. No effect if he has no berserk.
2x Roll the targets most common Berserk (no effect if the target has no
Berserk).
3x Roll an ego rolll upon failure, target goes Berserk, with any
Berserk disadvantages.
4x Target goes Beserk.
The characters stays Berserk as long as END is paid. If the wielder
wishes to direct whom the Berserk character attacks, the results are
shifted down one level on the table. If the wielder is attacking a target
who is easy to anger, the results are shifted one level up the chart. When
the wielder stops paying END, the target comes out of being berserk if he
has no berserk, otherwise he immediately tries to his normal recovery.
This is not a nice power, and no one but villains will carry it.
Power Healing 1D6 for 15
This works almost exactly like Aid, except there are other 'special' areas
it can be applied to as follows.
Special Damage Cost
Flash Blindness 3 per phase
Mind Control 2 per point of control
Weakness Found by Opponant 5 for every point Find Weakness Score was Exceeded
Phase Being Stunned 5 for the phase
Transformation 'Body' 2 per 'Body'
Presence Shock 5 for every level
Knockout 3 for +1
Knockout is a characteristic your character never knew he had. Everytime
a normal character is knocked to -10 stun, the character loses speed in
recovery. This is also true at -20, -30, and -40 Stun.. Each point of
Knockout increases this base number of 10. For example, a character with
two levels of Knockout suffers lower recovery at -12, -24, -36, and -48
STUN. A character's total Knockout cannot be higher than the total Body he
has.
Slipperiness 3 per +1
Every 3 points this power gives 1 point of Entangle Defense. Entangle
Defense subtracts 1 from both the body and defense of any entangle thrown
on the character. Slipperiness also subtracts 1 from the body of the str
roll of someone grabbing the character. This power costs no END.
Temporal Fugue 30 for base (11-)/+1 for 10
Temporal Fugue is also known as Replay. It allows the character to replay
past events and take a different action. , now that the character knows
exactly what will happen. To use Temporal Fugue, the character must roll
the ability, minus the number of 1/2 pahse actions he wishes to reverse.
If successful, the replay starts at that point. You can only replay an
event once.
Example: In a battle, Orakle sees an agent leveling a blaster at her.
Since he's just a nomral agent, she decides to depend upon him missing.
But the agent shoots and hits. BEFORE damage is rolled, Orakle uses her
Temporal Fugue to undo his 1/2 pahse attack. She rolls a (12-1=) 11; her
attempt succeeds. When the character levels his gun at her, she dives for
cover. Play resumes at that point. the agent, seeing that Orakle just
jumped behind some boxes, lobs a grenade at her. Orakle, having already
undone the attack phase once, cannot use her power again.
Referees may choose to extend the 1/2-pahse actions to include non-combat
or simultaneous moves. Thus an ambush could be considered one action for
the purposes of Temporal Fugue. The same goes for running down a blocked
corridor. Though it is a power, Temporal Fugue has all the limitations of
a skill: It cannot have any power advantages or limitations, and it can't
be placed in a power framework. Only Temporal Fugue levels add to the
Temporal Fugue roll. It is a no phase action and costs END.
Vertigo 5 points for 1D6
This EGO based power is a specialization of Mental Illusions. It works by
disrupting the perception centers of the brain, causing the victim to lose
all sense of balance. This has several effects as shown below.
Ego Mult Vertigo Effects
1x The target takes a -1 OCV, DCV, and DEX rolls (Including all
Dex based skills).
2x Target takes a -3 to OCV, DCV, and DEX rolls. A DEX roll must be
made to control flight or the target falls (Optionally having
uncertainty about location).
3x As per 2x above, and Target OCV on all ranged attacks drops to zero.
The target's control of light illusions and mental illusions is lost. A
DEX roll must be made to control any movement.
4x As per 3x above, and the target is unable to stand. OCV and DCV is
zero. the target is blinded.
Ego Defense applies against a Vertigo Attack. The effects remain as long
as the attacker keeps paying END.
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:30:17 -0600
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net
Organization: Redbow Antiques
Subject: Re: Champions
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
>
> I'm afraid I cannot address any more comments regarding a 5th >Edition. It seems I misspoke earlier. I welcome your comments about >what you'd like to see in future Hero System products from Gold Rush >Games, however.
Understood and don't worry. As long as the Hero systems last...which I
hope will be a looooooong looooong time. There will always be talk of
the next edition. But if it gets done...from what I have seen I hope you
get to do it.
X-Sender: shelley@mail.mactyre.net
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 06:32:34 -0800
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <shelley@mactyre.net>
Subject: PRIMUS Sourcebook
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 03:07 AM 12/16/97 -0800, Rook wrote:
> Are you also downgrading the power level of them?
>The stuff you have on your website is very potent. But then I suspect that's
>only because it was made for a game where the PC's come in at 400 points (or
>was it 300?).
The neat aspect of PRIMUS is that there are many different power levels at
work. Intelligence agents are normals, assault agents are agents with
equipment who rarely take more than a pot shot to go down -- hey, they're
normal guys who've had a Cyberline cocktail! Iron Guard are battlesuits
(normal guys in powered armor) and Avengers are of the power level of
moderate PCs. I suspect you're paying more attention point totals than to
power level; Avengers are experienced and skilled and as we discussed
earlier, that can be expensive.
PRIMUS can be as tough (or not) as you need them to be -- if you don't want
Avengers running around, don't use them. If you want more, add them. If
you're asking if I'm using the equipment that's posted online, the answer
to that is no, I'll be using numbers geared towards a 250 point campaign.
Also, remember that I mentioned that it's not campaign specific. Most GMs
tend to adjust power levels from sourcebooks (heavens, can't think of the
last time I used anything straight from a book!) ; PRIMUS is designed to
make that even easier.
It is my opinion that in a world where there are superheroes, the
government will want some that can compete with the bad guys. Otherwise,
what's the point? And you know, they keep that green kryptonite laser in
the basement...just in case. <g>
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
www.mactyre.net
Your children will see the stars.
--Robert A. Heinlein
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:34:21 -0600
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net
Organization: Redbow Antiques
Subject: Re: Fifth Edition - Killing Attacks
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Scott Nolan wrote:
>
> I've always wondered why Killing Damage costs no more than Normal
> Damage, when it is so clearly more effective (it is not stopped by
> non-resistant defenses).
>
> Why not simply make "Killing" an advantage on normal damage?
> Say...+1/2? I figure that many purists'd go for +1/4 or more likely
> just say no, but I truly think that Killing is deadly enough to
> warrant a +1/2 advantage.
>
> Could I hear some thoughts on this, please?
Maybe I don't understand you. 1d6k=15 points and 1d6 normal=5 pt's so
Killing does cost more than normal.
I aggree with the idea of just normal damage and making Killing be an
advantage. However I like the way the cost is set up now. Therefore it
should be a +2 advantage.
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:42:07 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: How do I buy these abilites??
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On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Filksinger wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 10, 1997 6:06 AM, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>
>
> <snip>
> >For (b), I would built it as FTL, with the "only on energy currents"
> >limitation, and an advantage that it can work in an atmosphere. This
> >advantage isn't exactly orthodox; I tend to make up advantages
> without the
> >sanction of the rules. It should also be linked to Desolid.
> >
> >The alternative is to build it as a Teleport. Many people feel this
> is
> >more legitimate, though I don't know why ignoring the description of
> >teleport as travel between points without crossing the intervening
> space
> >is any more legitimate than ignoring the restriction that FTL doesn't
> work
> >in an atmosphere.
>
>
> While I don't necessarily disagree, there is a specific reason why the
> second is legitimate and the first is not. The first a) does something
> specifically forbidden, and b) creates a new Advantage. The second a)
> changes the power in a way not forbidden, and b) creates a new
> Limitation. New Limitations are strictly kosher; new advantages are
> not.
>
Good point. (I still don't like it for the other reasons I cited, though.)
> >Actually, I never liked that blanket ruling on FTL. The fact of the
> matter
> >is that people do travel FTL (or at least lightspeed) within the
> >atmosphere in comics, and a superhero game should have a mechanism
> for
> >doing so. As your example indicates, it need not be unbalancing to
> game
> >play.
>
> Except that it is a much cheaper way to buy Teleportation, and with
> much greater range as well. By duplicating an existing power _and_
> making it much cheaper to boot, you are violating at least two basic
> rules for creating new constructs: don't duplicate existing Powers,
> and if two ways of doing something exist, the more expensive one is
> probably the way to go.
>
> By using Desolidification and FTL, you are _precisely_ duplicating
> Teleportation. You are more cheaply creating _exactly_ a power that
> _already exists_.
>
I agree this is pretty questionable, for the reasons you give. At the risk
of being pedantic, though, I'd disagree that Desolid FTL _exactly_
duplicates Teleportation; different things (like Affects Desolid defenses)
stop it. This leaves a mechanism for being stopped or attacked along the
way, perhaps even by someone moving at the same speed, while Teleport has
no real capacity for that. (Of course, the GM could always fudge something
for those limited Teleports.)
> OTOH, I definitely _do_ want a much cheaper way of traveling long
> distances, with Flight or Teleportation.
>
I'm glad we agree on that. It seems like with a little tinkering, all
these problems could be solved.
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:46:11 -0500 (EST)
From: dq831@freenet.carleton.ca (Jamie Rosen)
Subject: Re: Green Hornet conversion
Reply-To: dq831@freenet.carleton.ca
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>
>Any other old-radio fans on the list? I'm working on converting the
>radio/movie serial version of the Green Hornet to Hero System, and have
>hit a couple snags:
>
>1. I know the Black Beauty routinely outran cop cars, but did they ever
>decide just how fast it went? Also, in the serials it had better
>cornering than many other cars, what would be the best way to handle
>that?
Combat Driving, OAF Vehicular?
>2. The gas gun. The example of a gas attack in the rulebook is NND,
>defense Life Support or holding breath. So far, I haven't found a single
>time when someone was able to hold their breath and avoid passing out
>from the Hornet's gas, so NND wouldn't be appropriate here. Would AVLD,
>defense Life Support work, or should I bite the bullet and make it one
>heck of a STUN Drain?
Well, how you could say thta he just never ran into crooks who thought of
holding their breath, but that feels like a copout. Maybe NND, defense LS
or no exposed skin, and say it's not just a gas but a contact agent?
>3. An obvious disad for the Hornet is Reputation 14-. However, in his
>Secret ID Britt Reid is (locally) famous -- noted newspaper publisher,
>wealthy, seen in all the best clubs. I have several radio episodes on
>tape with some version of "I can't visit him as the Hornet, he knows me
>as Britt Reid and might recognize me" in the dialogue. Buying Reputation
>twice, once for Reid's reputation and once for the Hornet's, feels like
>cheating. Would it be legit to buy Reputation once and have two
>different definitions of what the Reputation is?
One rep, two definitions seems to be the standard practice. I cant;t
remember what books I've seen it in, but I know I just encountered it
recently.
--
Jamie Rosen - author, bad seed, and layabout on rec.arts.comics.creative
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mistake is just experience in the present tense.
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:46:27 -0600
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net
Organization: Redbow Antiques
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
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Mark @ GRG wrote:
> I can niether confirm nor deny that such a product is in the planning
> stages. I am no longer at liberty to discuss this topic.
I used to be in the U.S. Navy and I was always asked if we carried
nuclear weopons on our ships and my line was:
I can neither confirm or deny the presence of nuclear
weapons on board a United States Vessel.
Of course, when I winked it usually gave it away. How about winking
Mark;)
Seriously I understand where your coming from.
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:49:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Art in GRG's Hero books
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On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
> You haven't seen his San Angelo illos yet. ;) If I thought his work was
> substandard, I wouldn't have commissioned him to do stuff for SA. Wait 'till
> you see it.
<cough> No... but I have seen his stuff from Mystic Masters and Kingdom of
Champions, and I have always thought his material was pretty rotten.
> We've also recently contracted with a new artist to do the illo of the new
> PART armor for the upcoming PART sourcebook.
And based on our discussion from a few days ago, I'm keeping my finger
crossed!
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
From: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net (Mike Lehmann)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 06:51:01 -0800
Organization: Terminal BBS (403)327-9731
Subject: 5th Edition Hero: Suggestions (not long :)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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I'm not going to bombard the list with my own house rules, but instead
offer the site where they can be found so they can perused by those who
might care... <g>
http://www.dfw.net/~aronhead/justice_krewe.html
I'm still working on more rules, and I assure you that some of these
recent suggestions will definitely be going in there...
GM: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net | Justice Krewe
Web: http://www.dfw.net/~aronhead/justice_krewe.html | The Illuminators
Short waiting list for new players | Enigma Watch
Lurkers welcome (Write to me!) | KnightWatch
... What we DON'T need is more laws!
~~~ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:57:54 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat
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On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Tokyo Mark wrote:
> > >Okay, for acrobatics in a fight: Jackie Chan vs Ken Lo in Drunken Master
> > >II!
> > >
> > Say, how would one do drunken fighting, anyway? I know there's a section
> > on it in Ninja Hero, under Kung Fu, and they list -2 OCV/DCV later in NH,
> > but...
> > Drunken Fighters get *better* when they are drunk, right? So, CSL, only
> > when drunk?
Whoa! 'Drunken Fighting' doesn't require that the character gets drunk!
It is a style meant to simulate the erratic movements of someone who is
drunk. A drunken fighter doesn't have to drink anything to fight. Now,
it is a typical schtick in a few movies that the drunken fighter sucks
down some wine, gets sloshed and becomes unbeatable. Or as the quote
goes:
"I seldom drink wine becuase I can't stop giving heavy punches if I get
drunk!"
> I think it could vary. In Drunken Master II Jackie's Drunken Style is
> called weak unless he has been drinking. If he gets too drunk he
> can't fight though.
Actually, no, if he gets 'really' drunk (off strong drink or industrial
alcohol) he becomes almost unbeatable. (super strength, resistance to
damage, extra skill levels...)
> I'd say skill levels with limitations. Probably damage reduction with
> limitations and maybe even a damage class or two with limitations.
All valid suggestions for a cinematic drunken fighter.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:58:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
> << Then such a ruling had better be clearly stated in the text for the
> skill.>>
>
> It's not a ruling, people, it's a *sugegstion*.
<shrug> Okay Mark, can you tell I didn't like it? ^_^
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:00:03 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
<Hero System 5th Edition?>
> I can niether confirm nor deny that such a product is in the planning
> stages. ::Sigh:: I am no longer at liberty to discuss this topic.
Heh, gee Mark, with a comment like that I'd think you lived out here near
the Capital, and not on the West Coast! ^_^
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:03:21 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Champions
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
> << Well that just wet farts outta dead monkey's... >>
>
> <LOL> Now THAT'S a descriptive if I ever read one!
Yeah, well it woud have been even funnier if I had been awake enough (and
calm) to remember the word 'sucks'. ^_^
> << You trying to tell me that Steve P and co over at Hero are getting all hot
> and bothered that you want to improve on something they have effectivly
> abandoned? >>
>
> No, that is definitely NOT what I am trying to tell you.
Okay, should I be reading between the lines then?
> << Doesn't that just beat all. >>
>
> No, it doesn't, because you have misinterpreted my message. **Don't** read
> anything into this, folks. Do NOT let yourselves become all doom and gloomy
> again! You were so HAPPY for a spell. Please continue this thought process!
> All is not lost!
Find the Hero that resides within you all!
(sorry, slipped into Mirth mode for a moment.)
Well, based on that comment, I'll try and keep my hopes up that certain
nameless people (but we all know who they are) show some common sense...
> << Unless of course, Hero is planing on actually doing a 5th Edition (HAH!).
>
> I can neither confirm nor deny that such a product is in the planning
> stages. ::Sigh:: I am no longer at liberty to discuss this topic.
Hmm... someone's using 'cut-and'paste' for thier e-mail now, I see. ^_^
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
X-Sender: bastet@pop.iquest.net
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:03:25 -0500
From: TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net>
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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>> I think it could vary. In Drunken Master II Jackie's Drunken Style is
>> called weak unless he has been drinking. If he gets too drunk he
>> can't fight though.
>
>Actually, no, if he gets 'really' drunk (off strong drink or industrial
>alcohol) he becomes almost unbeatable. (super strength, resistance to
>damage, extra skill levels...)
>
Well, in Drunken Master II, Jackie Chan gets beaten up badly in middle of
the movie while totally drunk. I forget if it is his father or his master
who comments that drinking past a point renders him unable to fight. What
that point is, who knows. He certainly sucks down the industrial grade
alcohol at the end and fights great:).
TokyoMark
X-Sender: bastet@pop.iquest.net
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:03:25 -0500
From: TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net>
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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>> I think it could vary. In Drunken Master II Jackie's Drunken Style is
>> called weak unless he has been drinking. If he gets too drunk he
>> can't fight though.
>
>Actually, no, if he gets 'really' drunk (off strong drink or industrial
>alcohol) he becomes almost unbeatable. (super strength, resistance to
>damage, extra skill levels...)
>
Well, in Drunken Master II, Jackie Chan gets beaten up badly in middle of
the movie while totally drunk. I forget if it is his father or his master
who comments that drinking past a point renders him unable to fight. What
that point is, who knows. He certainly sucks down the industrial grade
alcohol at the end and fights great:).
TokyoMark
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 07:19:16 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
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At 08:07 AM 12/15/97 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote:
>> - Extra Time should specify whether the time listed is including or in
>>addition to the half-phase needed to launch an attack with a Power.
>
>And should probably be the latter. After all, if I make a power "Extra
>Time: Full Phase", then include the attack time, I'm really only spending a
>-half- Phase to activate it.
>
>Add "Extra Time: 1/2 Phase" (aka "Full Phase Action") for -1/4.
I could live with that. :-]
>> - Dependence should have a variation for Addiction. Also, the number of
>>dice should go on forever.
>
>Actually, it's not that hard to make Dependences work for Addictions. Buy
>it as normal, and treat the "attack" of each +1d6 as +2d6 Mind Control: Do
>The Drug.
It should probably also be Cumulative. And while this works for the
psychological addition, there are often physical side effects as well.
Whether it's a change in the Disadvantage or a description of how to do
it, though, something should be spelled out.
>> - Reputation should have modifiers for limited group -- say, -5 for a
>>small group, +0 for a large group, +5 for the public at large.
>
>It might also include a halving element (such as Watched or Enraged) if the
>Reputation is primarily positive. Maybe.
I think that this is definitely a good idea. Either x1/2, or -5 points.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:19:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Golden Age hero art
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On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
> << I still say that Madame Moonlight has one of the best costume designs in
> all of the Champions books.>>
>
> I'm going to have to go back and look at that again...
It's a nice peice of work (Chris's best in the book). Other good costumes
would be:
Nightwind (Watchers)
General Hseng (Watchers)
Scorpia (Classic Enemies)
St Peter's Star (Classic Organizations)
Merry Andrew (Classic Organizations) - stupid group, kinda stupid
character - cool outfit, very Batman theme villian-looking.
Hmm... there are a lot of other, nice looking costumes, but these are some
of the best designs. I also don't own some of the books that I felt had
really nice character art (and thus, pretty good costume designs).
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 07:21:42 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Transforms
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 02:16 PM 12/15/97 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Rook wrote:
>
>Re: Transform
>
>> > I can think of things which reduce costs that should be Minor (blinding,
>> > for example). Also, the rule about "no point increases" desperately needs
>> > to be reinstated.
>>
>> If it was reinstated, how would you do the special effect of the ray
gun
>> ordiety that grants powers/turns normals into mutants, etc...
>
>Transform linked to Aid. If all you're doing is adding Powers, then
>arguably Aid alone would work. Alternately, if you assume the people
>being transformed are "game irrelevant", you can just use Summon.
I could deal with that Transform linked to Aid, at least for Major
Transforms whose alterations exceeded the limits.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
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Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:26:02 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, TokyoMark wrote:
> >> I think it could vary. In Drunken Master II Jackie's Drunken Style is
> >> called weak unless he has been drinking. If he gets too drunk he
> >> can't fight though.
> >
> >Actually, no, if he gets 'really' drunk (off strong drink or industrial
> >alcohol) he becomes almost unbeatable. (super strength, resistance to
> >damage, extra skill levels...)
>
> Well, in Drunken Master II, Jackie Chan gets beaten up badly in middle of
> the movie while totally drunk. I forget if it is his father or his master
> who comments that drinking past a point renders him unable to fight. What
> that point is, who knows. He certainly sucks down the industrial grade
> alcohol at the end and fights great:).
Oh yeah, I forgot about that scene. Also note that once he stopped
fighting in the market (after rescuing his mother's stolen purse) the
alcohol kicked in *hard* turning him into an incoherant idiot.
I would have to guess the comment about driniking too much ould have come
from the first movie, since his father doesn't say anything like that in
the second (that I can tell, some of the sub-titles on mine are washed
out, the old white text on white clothing curse).
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:28:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Green Hornet conversion
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Leah L Watts wrote:
> 3. An obvious disad for the Hornet is Reputation 14-. However, in his
> Secret ID Britt Reid is (locally) famous -- noted newspaper publisher,
> wealthy, seen in all the best clubs. I have several radio episodes on
> tape with some version of "I can't visit him as the Hornet, he knows me
> as Britt Reid and might recognize me" in the dialogue. Buying Reputation
> twice, once for Reid's reputation and once for the Hornet's, feels like
> cheating. Would it be legit to buy Reputation once and have two
> different definitions of what the Reputation is?
Actually, you could put it down as both SID and Public ID. The Green
Hornet has the SID of Britt Reid, while Britt has the problem of being
*very* well known in the local area. People know him on sight, know where
he works, etc. Batman should almost get something like this, as well as
Tony Stark.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 07:42:33 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
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At 08:41 PM 12/15/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>> - Force Field and Force Wall should have Flash Defense, Mental Defense,
>> and Power Defense methods built right in.
>
> Sure. See USM for examples, but basically put that right into the
>core rules.
I don't have USM, and if I had I wouldn't have listed this. Part of my
main recommendation is to include most or all of the rules from Ultimate
books, Dark Champs books, and Atlantis, with a few from the HSAs.
>> - Hand-to-Hand Attack should *not* be omitted; this would leave us with
>> the old kludge of "+X STR, Only for Damage." Use Opal's version instead.
>
> Look at the version in Hero's Digital Hero instead. I expect this
>is what we'll be seeing in any new version. Oh, and note the KA option as
>well; I'd expect KA to just be an advantage on normal attacks.
I've seen that one. It's not bad, but I like Opal's better.
>> - Instant Change should be scaled. (My scale is 5 pts = instant, 4 pts
>> = half Phase, 3 pts = Phase, 2 pts = Turn, 1 pt = minute, normal = 5
>> minutes, with all costs doubled for "any clothing.")
>
> How long does it take to change in the first place? And this
>could be simulated with the "Extra Time" lim.
Officially, I think it takes a full Phase to change clothes. I don't
like this; ask any SNL cast member how long it takes for a costume change
with help from two people. I put it here as 5 minutes.
And I stand corrected, from all the people who've pointed it out;
Instant Change at more than truly Instant is unusual enough that it should
take "Extra Time."
>> - Life Support should have some of its elements able to be broken down
>> even further, like 2 points for being immune to *either* heat *or* cold.
>> Also, 1-2 points for retarded aging is a cool idea.
>
> Like I pointed out, work in something like Weapon Familiarities.
That's basically how I'm doing it here (in the more detailed write-up I
have on disk somewhere), except that I refer to them as "discrete elements."
>Also, add a LS: Does not die for something like 10 pts. A somewhat major
>ability with almost no combat importance. This is not something that
>should cost 20, 30, 40, or more points, as some of the list's writeups
>have done.
I'm not sure that even 10 points is too expensive.
>> - Swinging should be specifically described as movement per Phase, not
>> movement per swing.
>
> Never noticed, but that does lead to possible abuse, doesn't it?
Mostly misunderstanding. I think it was Phil Masters (love that writer)
in Kingdom of Champions that said that more rural areas wouldn't have the
tall buildings needed to go swinging. Spider-Man should be able to swing
just fine in a typical downtown area or rural neighborhood, if he were to
swing from the telephone poles. An individual swing would be shorter, but
he should still get around with no worse than relatively minor penalty.
>> - Armor Piercing should be purchasable so that it can do more than just
>> halve the target's defenses. However, I do see why this was stopped in 4th
>> ed. I'd recommend charging an extra +1/4 for each level higher that the
>> Armor Piercing can go (+1 1/4 to quarter defenses, +2 1/4 to reduce to
>> one-eighth, etc.).
>
> Nope. This is too easily abusable. Keep it as it is in 4th ed.
You know how much of an Energy Blast I could get in a campaign with a 60
Active Point limit that would cut your defenses to one-eighth? 3 1/2d6.
Or a 1d6 Killing Attack. Not real threatening, and only occasionally useful.
>> - Explosion should be +3/4 so it doesn't cost the same as AE: One Hex.
>> (The old method of making AE: One Hex cost +1/4 wouldn't work, because then
>> it would hit the proverbial floor if it's Nonselective.) The Selective
>> Target and Nonselective Target options for AE should also be available.
>
> We also need a way to increase the increased radius for expl at a
>faster rate. As it is, a AE is quickly more effective.
Agreed. If someone could do the math on how AE's +1/4 Advantage to a
+3/4 Explosion compares to equivalent Advantage levels of AE, I'd be very
interested.
>> - Reputation should have modifiers for limited group -- say, -5 for a
>> small group, +0 for a large group, +5 for the public at large.
>
> See . . . UMA maybe? Or was it Dark Champions.
Dark Champions has a discussion of it, giving only -5 for Limited Group.
Here I break it down a little further, and ask for its addition to the
core rules.
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Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 07:44:35 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
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At 12:35 AM 12/16/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< - Interrogation should not *necessarily* be violent. ...an attorney can
>use Interrogation to prompt a witness that she doesn't think is telling the
>truth ("Need I remind you of the penalties for perjury?" and such). Either
>that, or there should be a different Skill for this. >>
>
> How about Conversation?
>
> "This PRE-based Skill allows the character to extract information from
>people with careful conversation. ...if the Skill is properly performed, the
>victim won't be awarte he has divulged anything."
>
> Sounds like typical courtroom drama to me! <LOL>
Same scene, different approach.
The point someone made about Persuasion is a good one, but (dare I say
it?) not quite persuasive.
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Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 07:49:29 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
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At 11:10 PM 12/15/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>> - Interrogation should not *necessarily* be violent. In my
>campaign, an
>>attorney can use Interrogation to prompt a witness that she doesn't
>think
>>is telling the truth ("Need I remind you of the penalties for
>perjury?" and
>>such). Either that, or there should be a different Skill for this.
>
>I agree. Even the standard Interrogation need not include actual
>torture. A friend of mine who was a prisoner-of-war interrogator
>during Viet Nam used to tell me how you could break a person, without
>ever violating the Geneva Convention. _None_ of the techniques
>mentioned involved actual torture, in the physical sense.
I saw a movie once where a man was tortured for information in a rather
unique manner. They tickled him.
(Someone has *got* to come up with some tickling rules for Hero...)
>> - Extra Limbs should go back to having a cost per limb. My own
>>structure is 5 points for two arms, with reduced costs for lesser
>utility
>>(3 points for one arm, 3 for a pair of tentacles, 1 for a single
>tentacle
>>or prehensile tail).
>
>I'm split on this one. Extra Limbs doesn't add enough to be worth
>this, and I don't want that to change. However, I never liked the
>unlimited number of limbs rule, either.
>
>How about a x2 limbs for a low cost? This would allow squids, hundred
>armed giants, etc, without costing excessively.
That's my modified proposal. I haven't seen any responses to it, though.
>> - Transform should be more specifically described as well,
>especially in
>>terms of what constitutes Cosmetic, Minor, and Major Transforms. (I
>tend
>>to go with this: if it doesn't affect the character sheet, it's
>Cosmetic;
>>if it shifts points around on the sheet or alters specific Powers but
>>doesn't change the totals, it's Minor; if it changes point totals,
>it's
>>Major.)
>
>I like this. Add an additional level to Transform, for Transformations
>that are _extremely_ beneficial to the attacker. "Turn human into
>frog" shouldn't cost the same as "Turn human into my willing slave".
Actually, I think it should, but that's just my taste.
(Or you could make the "willing slave" Transform BOECV.)
>> - Explosion should be +3/4 so it doesn't cost the same as AE: One
>Hex.
>>(The old method of making AE: One Hex cost +1/4 wouldn't work,
>because then
>>it would hit the proverbial floor if it's Nonselective.) The
>Selective
>>Target and Nonselective Target options for AE should also be
>available.
>
>Agree about the Selective and Non-selective, but not the Advantage's
>value. The ability to hit one hex but not the one next to it is
>roughly equivallent to the ability to create an explosive effect. One
>is good for agents, the other good for villains near normals or
>explosives.
I tend to rail at the idea of charging points for what the Power
*doesn't* do (Personal Immunity being an exception).
---
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From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com>
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 9:52:45 CST
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> << Seriously, the fact that there won't be one (they say...) doesn't mean that
> we shouldn't talk about how the current game could be better. >>
>
> I can niether confirm nor deny that such a product is in the planning
> stages. I am no longer at liberty to discuss this topic.
Ok - I understand your (Mark's) position here - he's not in the driver's
seat here. But HERO Games:
1. "We don't expect players happy with Champions to switch to
Fuzion."
2. "We don't plan on doing a 5th edition at this time".
3. "We are not going to stop supporting 4th edition".
4. "Any future CHAMPIONS material will be released through
HERO PLUS".
HERO Guys: Please stop leading us around. If the evolution of HERO
System ended with 4th edition, please say so. If in fact a fifth
edition being produced is even a remote possibility, please say so.
I run a 400+ attendee game convention in Champaign, IL. Fact is, this
year is the first year in a long time that we don't have any Champions
games (except for the Saturday Morning Rumble, but that's not roleplay,
that's king of the hill combat). People think the game is gone.
When I tried to get support for Champions for last February's con,
neither R. Talsorian or HERO responded (but Atlas Games did, bless
them, but they're gone now too). Perhaps Gold Rush Games might,
but apparently they weren't on our GAMA contact list (thanks GAMA).
This mailing list is a gathering of the faithful. Either tell us to
follow the one true way over to Fuzion (in which case, I'm gone -
I still can't figure out the rule of X, and please DON'T e-mail me
explaining it to me), or tell us there's something to stay here for.
HERO Plus sucks (the ONLY new item I've seen is Ultimate Super Mage,
and I'd rather convert to GURPS Supers than use that). You didn't
even try to produce a Star HERO 4th ed. book, even though the interest
was there, and the existing Fantasy HERO stuff doesn't work at all
with my 600 pt. character high fantasy game (I'd never seen Fantasy
HERO before, so I just converted my AD&D game over to Champions...).
Anyway, the Steves, Bruce and anyone else associated with HERO Games,
can you be up front with us? Either tell us the patient is dead, or
alive, but take him off the artificial life support.
We've got a good group of gamers up here in Champaign, and HERO used
to be the game of choice. But in the last two years, everyone's left
that game but six of us, and to be honest, even the rats have left.
Frustrated,
DonM.
--
=========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist, (217) 239-8365 =
= Computer Sciences Corporation, Champaign, IL dmckinne@cmi.csc.com =
= Winter War XXV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 6-8, 1998 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org (217) 469-9917 =
=========================================================================
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:00:14 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Ed Cover
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At 04:57 PM 12/15/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>On the original Champions Autoduel by Steve Jackson games, the cover
>showed a superhero holding a car over his head. A man in the car
>leaned out the window, bouncing bullets off his chest. Behind the
>hero, another car was racing towards his back.
>
>Inside the book was a picture of a car, a superhero lying on his back
>on the hood, and another car upside down on top of him, and three
>thought bubbles- "I shouldn't have done that...."
>
>I always liked that picture.<BEG>
I my copy of Autoduel Champions, it's "Maybe that wasn't such a good
idea..."
But the point is still good. :-]
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Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:09:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Green Hornet conversion
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On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Leah L Watts wrote:
> 1. I know the Black Beauty routinely outran cop cars, but did they ever
> decide just how fast it went? Also, in the serials it had better
> cornering than many other cars, what would be the best way to handle
> that?
>
Levels with movement are the best way to do cornering.
> 2. The gas gun. The example of a gas attack in the rulebook is NND,
> defense Life Support or holding breath. So far, I haven't found a single
> time when someone was able to hold their breath and avoid passing out
> from the Hornet's gas, so NND wouldn't be appropriate here. Would AVLD,
> defense Life Support work, or should I bite the bullet and make it one
> heck of a STUN Drain?
I'd consider NND vs. Life Support to be a valid construction, even if most
gas attacks are built with holding breath as an additional defense.
Self-contained breathing is certainly a more common defense than some of
the other usual NND defenses.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:12:05 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Green Hornet conversion
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At 09:05 AM 12/16/97 EST, Leah L Watts wrote:
>2. The gas gun. The example of a gas attack in the rulebook is NND,
>defense Life Support or holding breath. So far, I haven't found a single
>time when someone was able to hold their breath and avoid passing out
>from the Hornet's gas, so NND wouldn't be appropriate here. Would AVLD,
>defense Life Support work, or should I bite the bullet and make it one
>heck of a STUN Drain?
Take the NND. Just because nobody ever thought of holding his breath
doesn't mean it couldn't be done.
>3. An obvious disad for the Hornet is Reputation 14-. However, in his
>Secret ID Britt Reid is (locally) famous -- noted newspaper publisher,
>wealthy, seen in all the best clubs. I have several radio episodes on
>tape with some version of "I can't visit him as the Hornet, he knows me
>as Britt Reid and might recognize me" in the dialogue. Buying Reputation
>twice, once for Reid's reputation and once for the Hornet's, feels like
>cheating. Would it be legit to buy Reputation once and have two
>different definitions of what the Reputation is?
I say go ahead and get two Reps. Or, even though that might seem to be
no less cheating, give him both Secret ID and Public ID.
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Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:22:06 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Message Numbers
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At 05:13 PM 12/16/97 -0800, Rick Holding wrote:
>-- A query to those who have been here the longest.
>
> Does the message count here go down over Christmas? I'm going
>away for a little over two weeks soon and I would like to know when I get
>back, will the message count be over or under 3000?
At this rate, darned close one way or the other.
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Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:22:45 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: 5th edition, contd
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On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Christopher Taylor wrote:
>
> > SIDE EFFECTS: At the present cost, very low power effects are severely
> > punished by this advantage. Thus, the chart is slightly different:
> >
> > -1/4 ½ the power level, minimum 20 PTS
> > -1/2 equal to power level, minimum 50 PTS
>
> I was wondering about a variation on Side Effects, where the power affects
> not the character but his environment. For example, you crank up your
> mega-chi Aid and create a minor shockwave centered on your person. People
> get knocked over, your surroundings get wrecked, etc.
>
It might be handy to expand this even further to include "Undesirable
Effects." Various effects can be built as powers, but are generally
disadvantages. For example, someone a few weeks back wanted to build an
empath who would involuntarily "leak" emotions to bystanders. Or how about
a healing spell that puts the subject into a deep sleep? Or an attack that
injures the target but confers some minor special ability? I generally end
up building these things as Power Limitations or as Physical Limitations,
but a lot of the time they need the Power write-up as well.
This one would have to be watched carefully, of course, as what
constitutes a disadvantage depends a lot on the personality and methods of
the character involved.
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage o
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "JD" == Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> writes:
JD> Now, you *could*, I suppose, fire them both at the same *very close*
JD> target, but then you get hit with the "grenade" damage as well.
I did not say that it would be *useful*, only possible to fire both
simultaneously.
'Course, if you are running a game in which much firing of large weapons is
the norm, then you could. :)
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Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:23:55 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: My BBB's falling apart!
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 01:32 AM 12/16/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< I meant, of course, that it has to *weight* several factors. Oi! I need to
>get more sleep! >>
>
> Apparently I still didn't get enough sleep. Let's try this again -- it has
>to WEIGH several factors, not *weight* several factors. Boy, oh boy...
>
> And I call myself an *editor*?
Will jest halve two weight four the book two cum aught.
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Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:23:55 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: My BBB's falling apart!
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 01:32 AM 12/16/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< I meant, of course, that it has to *weight* several factors. Oi! I need to
>get more sleep! >>
>
> Apparently I still didn't get enough sleep. Let's try this again -- it has
>to WEIGH several factors, not *weight* several factors. Boy, oh boy...
>
> And I call myself an *editor*?
Will jest halve two weight four the book two cum aught.
---
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
BG> But if I put the "Linked" Limitation on that exact same Flash, then I
BG> can use the EB without it, right? Or am I missing something here?
What you are missing is putting the Flash outside of the Framework.
Yeah, it is kind of wonky. The Linked Limitation needs to be completely
overhauled for consistancy's sake.
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Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:28:21 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: GRG: San Angelo, 5th Edition, and my Game Store...
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Just finished reading San Angelo (downloaded), and I must say I'm impressed.
I can't wait until it comes out. I love the idea of the Flux. It is
something I would gladly welcome. I've used magic as the source of all
power in some campaigns, but it falls apart every now and then. I just
don't understand why you want San Angelo to be apart from the Champions
Universe. I know, I can do whatever I want, and I will be basing it in the
Champions Universe. I'm thinking San Angelo being my 4 color campaign and
Hudson City being nearby for the Dark Champions, if you don't mind, sort of
Metropolis and Gotham. Well, just my two cents worth here, but I've already
placed an order for San Angelo at the place that doesn't believe anything
new comes out for Champions. Sigh.
Actually, if you did produce a 5th Edition book tomorrow, 6th Edition would
be discussed on the list tomorrow night :) Besides, if you fixed all the
rules that people wanted, what would this list have to argue about lol.
Seriously, you may not be at liberty to discuss 5th Edition but keep an ear
open to suggestions, just in case. It sounds like you have the right ideas
and as someone else said, if someone were going to produce 5th Edition, you
sound like the person I'd want to do it. And I hope you still join in on
conversation, if you aren't at liberty to officially discuss it, I hope that
doesn't cut you from the list conversation conversation even when it might
stray into 5th edition area. Just make sure you put a disclaimer that it is
you and not official. Trust me 5th Edition is a topic that comes up on a
regular basis. Though you may have inspired it this time, someone else
might sneeze to inspire it :)
And lastly, I have had my Gaming Store pull out there order forms for games,
and all Gold Rush Games and Champions stuff they can order is either old
stuff or Fuzion stuff. They never heard of Heroic Adventures Volume 1 or 2
but the manager up there has at least heard of San Angelo though he saw
nothing official yet. I'll just have to order it myself if they take to
long. Take it easy and talk at you later.
Sparx
=====================================================
Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:28:40 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Green Hornet conversion
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
> << Actually, you could put it down as both SID and Public ID. The Green
> Hornet has the SID of Britt Reid, while Britt has the problem of being *very*
> well known in the local area. People know him on sight, know where he works,
> etc. >>
> << Batman should almost get something like this, as well as Tony Stark.>>
>
> Why should Batman get Tony Stark? ;)
<slap> <slap> <slap> <slap> <slap> <slap> <slap>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:30:31 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
> << Seriously, the fact that there won't be one (they say...) doesn't mean that
> we shouldn't talk about how the current game could be better. >>
>
> I can niether confirm nor deny that such a product is in the planning
> stages. I am no longer at liberty to discuss this topic.
Wait... what happened to the ":sigh:" this time?
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:32:23 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 01:49 AM 12/16/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< Seriously, the fact that there won't be one (they say...) doesn't mean
that
>we shouldn't talk about how the current game could be better. >>
>
> I can niether confirm nor deny that such a product is in the planning
>stages. I am no longer at liberty to discuss this topic.
Something I think you *can* do, however, is take notes on what folks on
the list want and like, and pass the information on to Steve, Bruce, et al.
One thing that I think most of us want is a 5th Edition of the Hero System.
One thing that I think must of us like is the idea of a 5th Edition of
the Hero System.
Any arguments, people? :-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:35:34 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Regenerating limbs
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
GoldRushG wrote:
>
>
> Might I suggest that some of you are adhering quite strictly to the "letter
> of the law" as it applies to the rules? It would be a simple matter for the GM
> to say that a lost limb is the "special effect" of the BODY Drain, and that
> over time (as the BODY returns) it represents the overal healing of the
> victim's body WITHOUT the limb.
Ouch! In effect, the character who purchased this power is getting the
ability to impose a permanent character disadvantage as a special effect
of a power whose primary effect fades after a time certain. That's an
awful lot for free. I certainly would never allow a PC to buy such a
power, and I generally build my villains according to the same rules that
the PCs must obey: power limits and plot devices excepted, of course.
>
> After all, I would not make a PC who had a Phys. Lim. "Missing Left Arm"
> start his character with less than 10 BODY. Would you? ;)
Which is *exactly* why I think that Drain is inappropriate to the effect
desired. Taking a BODY Drain (to represent the injury) and a linked
Major Transform (to represent the permanent disability) is fine, but even
better would be:
30 3D6 HKA [45 active]
18 2D6 Major Transform/lose limb Cumulative(+1/2) [45 active]
Linked(-1/2) No Range(-1/2) Final effect when limb
is disabled per optional rules(-1/2)
Reversal requires limb growth or bionic prosthetic
The BODY damage is now straight BODY damage, Armor can protect one in a
reasonable fashion, the BODY damage cures normally, and the character has
paid points for the privilege of sticking his opponent with a long-term
character disadvantage. This could also be done as the special effect of
a "permanent" Drain of STR, DEX and Extra Limbs (just in case) in place
of the Transform, with a limitation that the Drained points are still
available in circumstances where the lost limb is not relevant (-1/2?).
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Fifth Edition - Killing Attacks
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 16 Dec 1997 11:36:56 -0500
Lines: 38
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "bf" == bobby farris <redbf@ldd.net> writes:
bf> Maybe I don't understand you. 1d6k=15 points and 1d6 normal=5 pt's so
bf> Killing does cost more than normal.
Watch carefully, and remember that killing attacks require more expensive
defenses:
3D6 N: min = 0B/3S, avg = 3B/10.5S, max = 6B/18S
1D6 K: min = 1B/1S, avg = 3.5B/8.75S, max = 6B/30S
In the middle, KAs are about the same as normal attacks: slightly more
Body, slightly less Stun. As one moves towards the max end, the "Stun
Lotto" takes a significant upwards swing.
What I would like to see, but I am not sure how to go about pricing it, is
to use the "normal" means of reading damage. To wit, for 3DCs of killing
attack, roll 3D6 and count the "Body" and Stun as if it were a normal
attack. Then apply resistant defenses only against the damage. Maybe
worth a +1/4 advantage on the power.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
\
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:43:35 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Slipperiness
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 06:23 PM 12/16/97 -0800, Rick Holding wrote:
>Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>> This is what I currently have down for the effect of a Slick. Tell me
>> what you think.
>>
>> If the Transform is successful, then the ground becomes slippery.
>> Characters and vehicles using Ground Movement must make a DEX Roll at -3
>> (or a Combat Vehicle Operations or similar Roll at no penalty) when
>> entering the hex or lose control (see Chapter Three for more details on
>> this). Even if this Roll is successful, a second Roll at -2 (in addition
>> to any other Modifiers) must be made if the character or vehicle attempts
>> to accelerate, decelerate, or turn while in the affected area.
>> At the GM's option, every BODY pip above the 16 needed to successfully
>> enact the Transform, up to the maximum that can be rolled on the dice, adds
>> another -1 to the DEX or Combat Vehicle Operations Rolls.
>>
>> Point of Clarification: Combat Vehicle Operations means either Combat
>> Driving, Combat Piloting, or an equivalent Skill (like Combat Robot
>> Operations).
>> I'm thinking of adding a provision where targets using feet for
>> transportation would also have to make a DEX or Combat Vehicle Operations
>> Roll every Phase.
>
> Thats pretty good. Although, I would dispute the requirement to have a
>target of 16 to transform a hex. After all, you are only doing the
surface. A hex
>is 2 metres high? That hex of dirt contains 16 body. You only want to
transform
>.2 metres (8 inches - still very deep but lets see). This is one tenth a
hex,
>hence you only need to transform 2 body per hex. Spread the "hex" out to
get your
>volume and cover 8 hexes for your 16 body target. Or apply an area effect
line
>(oil slick behind the vehicle).
I don't mind reducing the amount of BODY required to affect the
Trasnform, but as much as 16 seems high, 2 seems awfully low.
AE: Hex is the minimum requirement. Any greater AE, such as AE: Line,
merely affects each hex separately. In fact, the sample vehicle with a
Slick uses AE: Line to leave the Slick in its path (though it's an ice path
-- this is a "nuclear Zamboni," inspired somewhat by Mr. Freeze's car in
"Batman & Robin").
> But you still haven't applied a modifier to your travel speed. You hit a
>slick and stop (fell over, hit something, whatever). Regain control (made
you dex
>roll) and start off again. You inches of running or driving will not be
able to be
>fully applied. Big number pluck - call it half speed until free of the
area. Give
>the affect device or hero a bonus like they have for stealth vs hearing
perceptions
>on page 138 in the BBB.
That's because it doesn't affect travel speed; it affects the ability to
accelerate and decelerate. Go out and run across a frozen pond next July,
Rick, and you'll see what I mean. (Assuming you live far enough south, of
course.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:51:09 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: My BBB's falling apart!
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> << when a company prints a book it has to way several factors, >>
>
> I meant, of course, that it has to *weight* several factors. Oi! I need to
> get more sleep!
>
> Btw, if anyone's BBB has fallen apart, I'd be glad to replace it with a CD
> hardback (sans HeroMaker). All we ask is that you send us the old book (*all*
> of it, please) and then pay for shipping the new books to you ($3). Sound
> fair?
Oh yeah. I'll gather my various pieces up. (Hope I can find it,
actually, I've been using a HSR to keep up)
-Tim Gilberg
From: Fvigil <Fvigil@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:58:20 EST
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
In a message dated 97-12-15 18:10:53 EST, you write:
> Allows you to bounce an attack off of a surface. For each time you
> buy it, you can bounce one more surface. Or so it reads in GURPS.
> Sort of a variation of 'Indirect'.
Can't you do this with skill levels now?
Fernando
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:11:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Fifth Edition - Killing Attacks
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Stainless Steel Rat writes:
> What I would like to see, but I am not sure how to go about pricing it, is
> to use the "normal" means of reading damage. To wit, for 3DCs of killing
> attack, roll 3D6 and count the "Body" and Stun as if it were a normal
> attack. Then apply resistant defenses only against the damage. Maybe
> worth a +1/4 advantage on the power.
Hm...the only situation I would do this is if this were the _only_ way of
buying KAs. Particularly since the only part of KAs which are
resistant-defense only is the body. Not that this is necessarily a bad thing;
for a game in which I wanted it to be hard to kill people, calling KA a +1/4
advantage on EB would be reasonable. For a game in which you wanted KAs to be
actually deadly, that's more of a problem. I have been tempted by 'killing
damage: +1/4 advantage. Attack applies against resistant defenses, as
described in the BBB. Instead of the normal calculations for body, assume that
body is equal to half the stun'. This, of course, makes KAs hugely lethal, but
that may be appropriate for some games.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:18:03 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Odd Combat
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 10:03 AM 12/16/97 -0500, TokyoMark wrote:
>>> I think it could vary. In Drunken Master II Jackie's Drunken Style is
>>> called weak unless he has been drinking. If he gets too drunk he
>>> can't fight though.
>>
>>Actually, no, if he gets 'really' drunk (off strong drink or industrial
>>alcohol) he becomes almost unbeatable. (super strength, resistance to
>>damage, extra skill levels...)
>>
>
>Well, in Drunken Master II, Jackie Chan gets beaten up badly in middle of
>the movie while totally drunk. I forget if it is his father or his master
>who comments that drinking past a point renders him unable to fight. What
>that point is, who knows. He certainly sucks down the industrial grade
>alcohol at the end and fights great:).
A combination of this discussion and a scene early in "Blind Fury"
brings this idea to mind:
How about a character who beats up the bad guys... by *accident*? He
just turns and swings a arm, and... POW!
Probably Martial Arts with No Conscious Control?
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:29:09 -0600 (CST)
Subject: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
>
> Something I think you *can* do, however, is take notes on what folks on
> the list want and like, and pass the information on to Steve, Bruce, et al.
> One thing that I think most of us want is a 5th Edition of the Hero System.
> One thing that I think must of us like is the idea of a 5th Edition of
> the Hero System.
> Any arguments, people? :-]
> ---
I don't, as I stated previously.
Curt Hicks
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:42:55 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Don McKinney wrote:
>
> HERO Plus sucks (the ONLY new item I've seen is Ultimate Super Mage,
> and I'd rather convert to GURPS Supers than use that). You didn't
> even try to produce a Star HERO 4th ed. book, even though the interest
> was there, and the existing Fantasy HERO stuff doesn't work at all
> with my 600 pt. character high fantasy game (I'd never seen Fantasy
> HERO before, so I just converted my AD&D game over to Champions...).
And there is a really nice Star Hero 2nd Edition on the net that has a lot
of nice stuff in it. It's a shame Hero didn't finish fleshing the book
out.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:44:19 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 09:52 AM 12/16/97 CST, Don McKinney wrote:
>Ok - I understand your (Mark's) position here - he's not in the driver's
>seat here. But HERO Games:
>
>1. "We don't expect players happy with Champions to switch to
> Fuzion."
>2. "We don't plan on doing a 5th edition at this time".
>3. "We are not going to stop supporting 4th edition".
>4. "Any future CHAMPIONS material will be released through
> HERO PLUS".
>
>HERO Guys: Please stop leading us around. If the evolution of HERO
>System ended with 4th edition, please say so. If in fact a fifth
>edition being produced is even a remote possibility, please say so.
Ironically, the sad thing is that these four happy statements are all true.
>I run a 400+ attendee game convention in Champaign, IL. Fact is, this
>year is the first year in a long time that we don't have any Champions
>games (except for the Saturday Morning Rumble, but that's not roleplay,
>that's king of the hill combat). People think the game is gone.
>When I tried to get support for Champions for last February's con,
>neither R. Talsorian or HERO responded (but Atlas Games did, bless
>them, but they're gone now too). Perhaps Gold Rush Games might,
>but apparently they weren't on our GAMA contact list (thanks GAMA).
Jump on the chance, Mark! It'll be good for business! (I can't be
there, of course, since I'm way out here in Oregon and I'm still in a
low-income bracket, but if it were in my area I'd do what I could to drop
by....
>This mailing list is a gathering of the faithful. Either tell us to
>follow the one true way over to Fuzion (in which case, I'm gone -
>I still can't figure out the rule of X, and please DON'T e-mail me
>explaining it to me), or tell us there's something to stay here for.
Gee, I find Rule of X rather easy to understand. It's the Disadvantage
structure that's giving me headaches....
>HERO Plus sucks (the ONLY new item I've seen is Ultimate Super Mage,
>and I'd rather convert to GURPS Supers than use that). You didn't
>even try to produce a Star HERO 4th ed. book, even though the interest
>was there, and the existing Fantasy HERO stuff doesn't work at all
>with my 600 pt. character high fantasy game (I'd never seen Fantasy
>HERO before, so I just converted my AD&D game over to Champions...).
You haven't seen Widows & Orphans? I'm awaiting a review of it; from
what I've seen (including the online preview), I want it. (I also want to
throttle Avellone because he got his Dark Champions clowns in print before
I did mine.)
Besides, Doug, surely you've been reading about The Ultimate Super
Vehicle that I've been working on (I think you even gave some helpful
input), to say nothing of my mention of Northwest Champions and a VOICE
update, and Shelley's current work on a PRIMUS book? (Michael's Kazei 5
book could also count, if you include Dark Champions and don't insist that
it be Champions Universe related.)
And who knows what else might be in the works from authors not
associated with this list? By this time next year, there could be a couple
dozen Champions titles out from Hero Plus.
As for Star Hero 4th Ed, I'd like to know myself why that project ground
to a halt roughly three years ago. I originally downloaded the playtest
manuscript from Red October a year and a half ago; something should have
moved with it. Obviously something went wrong -- though I wouldn't quite
say that they didn't even try.
>Anyway, the Steves, Bruce and anyone else associated with HERO Games,
>can you be up front with us? Either tell us the patient is dead, or
>alive, but take him off the artificial life support.
>
>We've got a good group of gamers up here in Champaign, and HERO used
>to be the game of choice. But in the last two years, everyone's left
>that game but six of us, and to be honest, even the rats have left.
I definitely agree that a little extra support and communication
directly to this list from *someone* at the top of the ladder would be very
helpful.
Personally, I would like to have a list (if only in the form of "coming
soon" blurbs) of all Hero Plus projects for which final drafts have been
submitted. That would give us a better idea of what's coming up. I don't
mind snafus like what happened with the Assassins' Directory or various
other projects that had to be put on indefinite hold; I just like to know
what's in the works.
(And on that topic, thanks, Mark, for posting such a list here. It
helps me make plans.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:46:59 -0500 (EST)
From: William K Bushway <wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu>
X-Sender: wbushway@mason2.gmu.edu
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: My BBB's falling apart!
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> Btw, if anyone's BBB has fallen apart, I'd be glad to replace it with a CD
> hardback (sans HeroMaker). All we ask is that you send us the old book (*all*
> of it, please) and then pay for shipping the new books to you ($3). Sound
> fair?
Sounds excellent.
What is your mailing address (or the address you would like the books sent
to)?
How do you want the $3 (personal check, money order, cash)?
Asking as one of the few who do not already own HeroMaker, can I include
some extra money for a copy of the software?
Finally, about long do you think it'll take for delivery? 6-8 weeks?
William K. Bushway, wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu
http://Mason.GMU.edu/~wbushway/index.html
"I'm betting that I'm just abnormal enough to survive."
-The Tick, The Tick Vs.The Breadmaster
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:16:58 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage o
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> F> Uh, I can think of a number of SFX that would allow both separate and
> F> together uses of a power.
>
> I like real-world examples: M-16A2 with grenade launcher. Use the rifle,
> use the grenade launcher, or use both. The last is unwieldly, but it can
> be done.
Buy with two seperate powers and do one power or power slot with
the two purchased together as one power, perhaps with a -1/2 linked on one
of the powers.
And for some of the examples, especially the two seperate SFX, one
in each hand, there is a better way. If both are, say, EBs, or even if
one is an EB and the other is a KA, buy as a slightly larger EB with a
mixed SFX. Cheaper than trying to link two (with it's greater effect of
defenses) and about the same effect. Two 10d6 EBs, put together, do not
equal one 20d6 EB, actually they would be an 11D6 EB.
-Tim Gilberg
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:22:58 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 09:57 AM 12/16/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Tokyo Mark wrote:
>Whoa! 'Drunken Fighting' doesn't require that the character gets drunk!
>It is a style meant to simulate the erratic movements of someone who is
>drunk. A drunken fighter doesn't have to drink anything to fight. Now,
>it is a typical schtick in a few movies that the drunken fighter sucks
>down some wine, gets sloshed and becomes unbeatable. Or as the quote
>goes:
>
>"I seldom drink wine becuase I can't stop giving heavy punches if I get
>drunk!"
>
IRL, "Drunken Fighting" doesn't require you to be drunk. However, some
cinematic "drunken fighters" must drink, or get better when the are
drunk... just like you said below!!!
Ninja Hero gives the manuevers and skills required for "normal" drunken
fighting, but it also says you have a -2 OCV/-2 DCV *if actually drunk*.
This is for *everybody* (unless you have a funky Immunity to alcohol, or
something. Say...).
>> I think it could vary. In Drunken Master II Jackie's Drunken Style is
>> called weak unless he has been drinking. If he gets too drunk he
>> can't fight though.
>
>Actually, no, if he gets 'really' drunk (off strong drink or industrial
>alcohol) he becomes almost unbeatable. (super strength, resistance to
>damage, extra skill levels...)
>
>> I'd say skill levels with limitations. Probably damage reduction with
>> limitations and maybe even a damage class or two with limitations.
>
>All valid suggestions for a cinematic drunken fighter.
>
Which is what I was speaking of. I think you just got upset 'cuase I
didn't specify. Sorry, and thanks for answering. : )
- Jerry
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:23:39 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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> EB> Yes, this seems reasonable, but how would you handle powers and
> EB> attributes linked to powers without varying degrees? For instance,
> EB> 10pts of COM linked to Shape Shift.
>
> If you have 30AP of Shapeshift with 10AP of COM linked to it, you must use
> all 10 points of COM. What the powers are and what they are used for has
> no bearing on this.
Right.
> This is a good example of why I believe that powers are inherently
> "linkable" without modifiers and without restrictions. Without any
> limitations, one could use all 30 points of Shapeshift without using any
> extra COM. With Linked, if you want to use the COM you must use the
> Shapeshift, and they must be used in equal proportion.
True. However, this is a difference of attack and non-attack
powers. As non-attack powers can be used together as much as desired, up
to any potential END or framework considerations, linked is a definate
disadavantage. This is less likely with combat powers. I'd really lean
toward just buying something like this as a solo power:
8d6 EB + 2D6 Flash = 60 AP ; 6 END
or
4d6 EB + 1D6 Flash, AE Radius = 60 AP ; 6 END
The problem, of course, is an old one. Each side of the power is
less effective as they will be affected greater by defenses meant to
defend against the whole 60 AP, ie, 12d6 EBs or 6D6 Flashes. I consider
both of the above to be a lot less effective, in general. (Though there
are situations where there is increased usefulness). I'd make judgements
on cost, I guess, on the relative scarcity of the defenses in question.
-Tim Gilberg
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:26:47 EST
Subject: Re: Champions
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< In other words: keep talking about what you'd like to see in an
-hypothetical- 5th Edition. Just -don't- blame it on Mark.
Wink, nudge. >>
NOW you have the Hero spirit! :D
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:26:49 EST
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editio
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< You mean the one done by George Perez? With Seeker jumping to attack Dr.
Destroyer (presumably without effect and a lot of pain on Seeker's side)?
Why does it need to be changed?>>
Because I think after X years of the same cover it's time for a facelift,
that's all. We're trying to reach a new market, or at least expand our market
for 4th Edition. Do you disagree?
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:26:50 EST
Subject: Re: San Angelo (Re: Greetings)
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< Powers acted exactly like my normal supers games. This "source" for
super powers didn't affect powers at all. What it _did_ do was work as
a campaign element.>>
By George, I think you've got it! ;) That's exactly what we're aiming for.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:26:52 EST
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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X-Status:
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X-UID: 98
<< Are you going to seperate the powers into their own seperate book?>>
I'm not at liberty to discuss any plans to reprint Champions or Hero System.
But, hypothetically speaking... no. It would all be in the HSR book. ;)
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:26:54 EST
Subject: Interrogation
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< Cops grilling someone are using interrogation as well. >>
Don't I know it (a veiled reference to my "day" job). ;)
I usually allow Complimentary Skill rolls to Interrogation; usually
Psychology. But almost any skill if I feel (in my *experience*) that it could
be applied. For example, if you were trying to grill a murder suspect, I'd
allow Forensic Science as a comp roll because you would know all sorts of neat
scientific details to baffle him with. "Not only do we have your prints, but
we matched the DNA from the skin cells you left on the priest's crucifix, you
sicko!" <LOL>
I'm pretty liberal in my application of skill rolls when success is needed
to move the story along, as if you couldn't tell. ;)
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:27:00 EST
Subject: Re: Champions
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< A bit more detail, please. Just what sort of comments are you unable to
address. Legal? Production?>>
I am not at liberty to discuss this topic any further, until further notice.
I'm sorry.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:27:03 EST
Subject: Re: Green Hornet conversion
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<< Actually, you could put it down as both SID and Public ID. The Green
Hornet has the SID of Britt Reid, while Britt has the problem of being *very*
well known in the local area. People know him on sight, know where he works,
etc. >>
I've always allowed well reasoned applications of SID and PID, like that.
It's reflective of the genre. ;)
<< Batman should almost get something like this, as well as Tony Stark.>>
Why should Batman get Tony Stark? ;)
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:27:14 EST
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
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<< 1. "We don't expect players happy with Champions to switch to Fuzion." >>
This is true.
<< 2. "We don't plan on doing a 5th edition at this time". >>
That was true.
<< 3. "We are not going to stop supporting 4th edition". >>
This is true.
<< 4. "Any future CHAMPIONS material will be released through HERO PLUS".>>
This is not true, any more. Future Champions products will also be coming
from GRG. What the heck do you think I've been promoting here this lpast week
or so? :D
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:27:14 EST
Subject: Re: Regenerating limbs
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<< Ouch! In effect, the character who purchased this power is getting the
ability to impose a permanent character disadvantage as a special effect
of a power whose primary effect fades after a time certain.>>
Yeah, I guess (on hindsight) it is a pretty gross "freebie." :D
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:27:16 EST
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< Of course, when I winked it usually gave it away. How about winking Mark;)
>>
"At this point, ladies and gentlemen, I can assure you that there is
absolutely no conspiracy or attempt at a cover up at this time. If we had any
news of this sort to bring, we would do so with complete forthrightness and
resolve. It is a duty and an obligation of this government to keep the people
informed and we take that obligation to heart. That is all."
<< Seriously I understand where your coming from. >>
Elvis has left the building. ;)
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:27:17 EST
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< Something I think you *can* do, however, is take notes on what folks on
the list want and like, and pass the information on to Steve, Bruce, et al.>>
"People, I am here to tell you that there are no such things as flying
saucers, and we definitely do not have one in the New Mexico desert."
Mark @ GRG
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:33:20 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage o
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>>>>> "JD" == Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> writes:
>
>JD> Now, you *could*, I suppose, fire them both at the same *very close*
>JD> target, but then you get hit with the "grenade" damage as well.
>
>I did not say that it would be *useful*, only possible to fire both
>simultaneously.
>
Possible in the same sense that you could fire two pistols together
accurately, or (more extreme) two M-16s from the hip together. It's just
not gonna do much good...
>'Course, if you are running a game in which much firing of large weapons is
>the norm, then you could. :)
>
Yeah, it'd have to be pretty highly cinematic... and then it would work
fine. : ) Where else are the PCs carrying around an M-16/M-203 combo,
anyway?
- Jerry
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com>
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:35:57 CST
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> You haven't seen Widows & Orphans? I'm awaiting a review of it; from
> what I've seen (including the online preview), I want it. (I also want to
> throttle Avellone because he got his Dark Champions clowns in print before
> I did mine.)
Um - online preview? Ok, what website am I missing?
> Besides, Doug, surely you've been reading about The Ultimate Super
> Vehicle that I've been working on (I think you even gave some helpful
> input), to say nothing of my mention of Northwest Champions and a VOICE
> update, and Shelley's current work on a PRIMUS book? (Michael's Kazei 5
> book could also count, if you include Dark Champions and don't insist that
> it be Champions Universe related.)
Don :)
And A HERO Vehicle book I've been waiting for years for, not including
the three drafts of such I sent Bruce Harlick and the meeting he and I
had at Gen Con over that manuscript (oh, and over the Star Hero playtest
I might add, since my group generated a 30 page document on fixes for
that Red October download document - in addition to our own vehicle
and starship rules).
> And who knows what else might be in the works from authors not
> associated with this list? By this time next year, there could be a couple
> dozen Champions titles out from Hero Plus.
> As for Star Hero 4th Ed, I'd like to know myself why that project ground
> to a halt roughly three years ago. I originally downloaded the playtest
> manuscript from Red October a year and a half ago; something should have
> moved with it. Obviously something went wrong -- though I wouldn't quite
> say that they didn't even try.
Bruce Harlick told me that something had gone wrong, and they had pulled
the project in-house to fix it... That was three years ago...
> I definitely agree that a little extra support and communication
> directly to this list from *someone* at the top of the ladder would be very
> helpful.
Thanks, Bob. I'm getting occasionally disillusioned...
> Personally, I would like to have a list (if only in the form of "coming
> soon" blurbs) of all Hero Plus projects for which final drafts have been
> submitted. That would give us a better idea of what's coming up. I don't
> mind snafus like what happened with the Assassins' Directory or various
> other projects that had to be put on indefinite hold; I just like to know
> what's in the works.
> (And on that topic, thanks, Mark, for posting such a list here. It
> helps me make plans.)
Yes, for example, I know as soon as you have some TUSV stuff ready,
I have a group ready to playtest it (and I might convert my Star Fleet
Champions rules over to it).
And as long as its four color and doesn't have CLOWN in it, I'm always
willing to help on a project...
(my group includes an engineer, a librarian and professional proofreader,
and an English Lit GS, plus myself, the jack of all trades computer
programmer)
Just having a bout of disillusionment,
DonM.
--
=========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist, (217) 239-8365 =
= Computer Sciences Corporation, Champaign, IL dmckinne@cmi.csc.com =
= Winter War XXV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 6-8, 1998 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org (217) 469-9917 =
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:38:58 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Pirate Hero
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> << I'd really buy that. GRG, are you listening? There may be some
> interest in reviving Pirate Hero. >>
>
> Don't tell me. Tell the author(s)! I don't go hunting down people to write
> opur products. They send us proposals, and Hero (and myself) must approve
> them. *Then* we discuss publishing the book. Until then, all it is is a good
> idea. ;)
Not one I'd probably do, though its not an unknown era for me.
I'd be better at something Arthurian or Celtic. Or perhaps something on
the various pre-European contact Native American civilizations.
I think the product was started and never completed over at Hero's
end. If it never got beyond the planning stages, I'd love to jump in to
turn it into a finished product, if there's any type of interest.
-Tim Gilberg
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com>
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:44:35 CST
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> > HERO Plus sucks (the ONLY new item I've seen is Ultimate Super Mage,
> > and I'd rather convert to GURPS Supers than use that). You didn't
> > even try to produce a Star HERO 4th ed. book, even though the interest
> > was there, and the existing Fantasy HERO stuff doesn't work at all
> > with my 600 pt. character high fantasy game (I'd never seen Fantasy
> > HERO before, so I just converted my AD&D game over to Champions...).
>
> And there is a really nice Star Hero 2nd Edition on the net that has a lot
> of nice stuff in it. It's a shame Hero didn't finish fleshing the book
> out.
Well, our group received more than that, and generated 30 pages of
response/fixes for those guys - that never went anywhere either.
Our group actually actually considered taking our "Star Fleet Champions"
rules up to Gen Con, and passing them out for free near the Task Force
Games booth...
Sigh...
DonM.
--
=========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist, (217) 239-8365 =
= Computer Sciences Corporation, Champaign, IL dmckinne@cmi.csc.com =
= Winter War XXV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 6-8, 1998 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org (217) 469-9917 =
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:46:13 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Needed: Mentalist Inspiration
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> I was hoping the folks on this list could help with a character design. I've
> been invited to join an ongoing Champions game, and the other player want me to
> create a mentalist to help round out their party. Now, I've been playing and
> GMing in the Hero System for years, but I've never much liked mentalists. So, I
> want some unconventional suggestions for mentalism powers to give me some
> inspiration. The concepts I've come up with so far (I do concepts first, build
> system after) are:
To start, you really need to pick up The Ultimate Mentalist. Hero
has it available from their Web Site in Hero Plus electronic format.
> Mental Invisibility.
> She projects an aura that affects peoples minds and convinces them that she
> isn't there. It would be probably be bought as some form of Images
> (Static Image of empty space) aftecting all but mental senses (mentalists can
> 'see' what she's doing) Probably has some sort of limitation like 'Points of
> Mental Def counter negative perception modifiers' or something like that. She
> would likely have extra levels of DCV linked to the Mental Invisibility. She
> might even have a multipower in which she can tune her aura to project
> other affects, like heightened beauty or impressiveness or even some sort of
> 'Boy am I scarey' field.
This is better done with Invisibility to whichever senses desired
with a limitation like, "Not effective on those with 5+ (or 10+ or
whatever) points of mental def; -1/2." The other's might be best in a MP
of different effects, like an Aid to PRE or COM."
> Mental Transform
> I am assuming that a Transform vs Mental Def is a +0 (since AVLD doesn't
> distinguish between them.) Anyway, she would have a (minor?) transform to
> modify someone's memories (possibly requiring a sufficient read-minds roll).
> Ideally the effect would require rolling double the victims EGO rather than
> BODY, but that isn't essential.
This is covered completely in TUM, and it does allow going against
Mental Def at +0. (Or a lim in an high-mentalist game). It also works
against EGO instead of BODY, if you're interested in more, e-mail me and
I'll scare up some quotes.
> Skill Drain
> This might also have to be bought as a transform, but I am thinking of a
> mental power that interferes with and makes someone forget how to use a
> particular skill/maneuver for a time.
Drains bought down the time chart would work, but would be way too
effective and cheap. I'd go with a mental transform, like above.
> So there you are. Are there any other good mind-affecting powers that she
> should have? The party already has a telekinetic, so I'm shying away from that.
I've always been partial to Empaths. In a recent campaign, I
wouldn't allow a normal Telepath (too easy to destroy mysteries) but did
allow an empath. Powers like Read Emotions, Control Emotions, Sense Aura,
Healing with Feedback, Emotional Overload, etc.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:49:38 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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> >> THWAP! (Sound of BBB (softcover) hitting player's head.)
> >
> > I'd prefer a large handful of dice, myself . . .
> >
> But then they don't make that satisfying "THWAP!" sound... <g>
True, but they have that beautiful peppering effect, as well as
acting as great caltrops when the player tries to move anywhere. I also
like the full dice bag being used as a sort of club.
-Tim Gilberg
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:52:21 EST
Subject: M-203
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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> F> Uh, I can think of a number of SFX that would allow both separate and
> F> together uses of a power.
>
> I like real-world examples: M-16A2 with grenade launcher. Use the rifle,
> use the grenade launcher, or use both. The last is unwieldly, but it can
> be done.
<< Buy with two seperate powers and do one power or power slot with
the two purchased together as one power, perhaps with a -1/2 linked on one
of the powers. >>
The M-16A1 (or A2) with the grenade launcher is called the M-203 (which
replaced the older M-148, I believe). And the last thing any grenadier worth
his salt is going to do is use them both at the same time. I know. I were one
for years.
The reason is because when using the M-16, your shooting hand is on the
pistol grip and the other is (typically) on the hand guard.
When firing the 40mm grenade launcher, whose trigger is forward of the
M-16's magazine, your shooting hand goes around the *magazine* of the gun.
Such a configuration makes it rather difficult to reach the pistol grip and
trigger of the M-16. :/
Just one of the many neat military trivia items that could appear n a
"Military Hero" sourcebook. ;)
Mark @ GRG
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:54:40 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> >> THWAP! (Sound of BBB (softcover) hitting player's head.)
>> >
>> > I'd prefer a large handful of dice, myself . . .
>> >
>> But then they don't make that satisfying "THWAP!" sound... <g>
>
> True, but they have that beautiful peppering effect, as well as
>acting as great caltrops when the player tries to move anywhere. I also
>like the full dice bag being used as a sort of club.
>
Wow. Versatile power. So, you have a Multipower OAF, one slot HA (the
clubbing effect), one slot Autofire EB (really small, with charges) and...
after you throw the Autofire EB, you get caltrops? How do you write *that*
up? lol
Ok, I know it's not an oil slick or anything, but... lol
- Jerry
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:56:16 -0600
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: Pirate Hero
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Pirates was one of the Campaign Classics series from ICE that included stats for both Hero and Rolemaster. Good book.
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
On 12/16/97, at 12:38 PM, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>> << I'd really buy that. GRG, are you listening? There may be some
>> interest in reviving Pirate Hero. >>
...
> I think the product was started and never completed over at Hero's
>end. If it never got beyond the planning stages, I'd love to jump in to
>turn it into a finished product, if there's any type of interest.
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:09:54 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Champions
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> > << Unless of course, Hero is planing on actually doing a 5th Edition (HAH!).
> >
> > I can neither confirm nor deny that such a product is in the planning
> > stages. ::Sigh:: I am no longer at liberty to discuss this topic.
>
> Hmm... someone's using 'cut-and'paste' for thier e-mail now, I see. ^_^
I'd guess he has a Macro set up, myself.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:29:56 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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> >> - Force Field and Force Wall should have Flash Defense, Mental Defense,
> >> and Power Defense methods built right in.
> >
> > Sure. See USM for examples, but basically put that right into the
> >core rules.
>
> I don't have USM, and if I had I wouldn't have listed this. Part of my
> main recommendation is to include most or all of the rules from Ultimate
> books, Dark Champs books, and Atlantis, with a few from the HSAs.
OK, that's good. And the USM rules are just pretty
straightforward addition of the other defenses. The main consideration is
what does and does not take down the wall. Take a wall that just supplies
power def -- what does an energy EB do?
> > Look at the version in Hero's Digital Hero instead. I expect this
> >is what we'll be seeing in any new version. Oh, and note the KA option as
> >well; I'd expect KA to just be an advantage on normal attacks.
>
> I've seen that one. It's not bad, but I like Opal's better.
I'm leaning toward the Digital Hero one, but considering my own
variation:
HKA's and HA's are gone. If the effects are desired, buy an
equivalent amount of RKA or EB with the no range limitation. STR is too
cheap as is to add to the amounts.
This, however, destroys the possibility of combat modifiers with
the powers, so . . . I think I'll stick with a 5 pt HA or the DH version.
> Officially, I think it takes a full Phase to change clothes. I don't
> like this; ask any SNL cast member how long it takes for a costume change
> with help from two people. I put it here as 5 minutes.
Depends on what is being worn, but 20 seconds isn't unreasonably
fast. Of course, your finishing the various buttenings and such while
heading back to the stage.
> > Like I pointed out, work in something like Weapon Familiarities.
>
> That's basically how I'm doing it here (in the more detailed write-up I
> have on disk somewhere), except that I refer to them as "discrete elements."
So, something like: Immune to Cold - 2pts; Immune to Heat; 2pts.
Both for 3 pts?
> >Also, add a LS: Does not die for something like 10 pts. A somewhat major
> >ability with almost no combat importance. This is not something that
> >should cost 20, 30, 40, or more points, as some of the list's writeups
> >have done.
>
> I'm not sure that even 10 points is too expensive.
Do you mean that 10 pts is too expensive? Perhaps, but this would
serve to have very reckless characters. "I can't die, so I'm gonna
suicide bomb the bad guys." I actually had a character of mine do this,
and he only had Regen.
Hmmmm. Maybe 10 pts for having common ways to die, 15 for an
uncommon way to die, 20 for no way to die?
> > Nope. This is too easily abusable. Keep it as it is in 4th ed.
>
> You know how much of an Energy Blast I could get in a campaign with a 60
> Active Point limit that would cut your defenses to one-eighth? 3 1/2d6.
> Or a 1d6 Killing Attack. Not real threatening, and only occasionally useful.
Not that bad, as you point out. Also would rarely be seen, I'd
think.
> > We also need a way to increase the increased radius for expl at a
> >faster rate. As it is, a AE is quickly more effective.
>
> Agreed. If someone could do the math on how AE's +1/4 Advantage to a
> +3/4 Explosion compares to equivalent Advantage levels of AE, I'd be very
> interested.
I'm not exactly sure what you're asking for here.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:31:53 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Odd Combat
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> >Well, in Drunken Master II, Jackie Chan gets beaten up badly in middle of
> >the movie while totally drunk. I forget if it is his father or his master
> >who comments that drinking past a point renders him unable to fight. What
> >that point is, who knows. He certainly sucks down the industrial grade
> >alcohol at the end and fights great:).
>
> A combination of this discussion and a scene early in "Blind Fury"
> brings this idea to mind:
> How about a character who beats up the bad guys... by *accident*? He
> just turns and swings a arm, and... POW!
> Probably Martial Arts with No Conscious Control?
But NCC is way too big of a disadvantage here. Unless, of course,
this is such a rare occurance to be almost negligable.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:38:18 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> << 1. "We don't expect players happy with Champions to switch to Fuzion." >>
>
> This is true.
I first heard this one at GenCon this year. Before that, they
were trying to push a switch to Fuzion on us.
> << 2. "We don't plan on doing a 5th edition at this time". >>
>
> That was true.
Isn't that a slip? Or maybe George P. took my comment on a
Revised and Expanded 4th edition, sort of like WEG's R&E 2nd ed of Star
Wars RPG, to heart. (which was a *really* big seller, BTW. Wonder if
that played into the decision. If so, expect whatever it is to have
*great* artwork to attract the newbies)
> << 3. "We are not going to stop supporting 4th edition". >>
>
> This is true.
But could change at any time. Argh!
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:42:11 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> Wow. Versatile power. So, you have a Multipower OAF, one slot HA (the
> clubbing effect), one slot Autofire EB (really small, with charges) and...
> after you throw the Autofire EB, you get caltrops? How do you write *that*
> up? lol
That would be a small EB linked to a Ranged Martial Throw, AE 1
hex, triggered by walking in hex, linked to the autofire EB slot of the
MP.
Sound good?
-Tim Gilberg
X-Sender: nolan@pop.erols.com
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:45:21 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>> << 2. "We don't plan on doing a 5th edition at this time". >>
>>
>> That was true.
>
> Isn't that a slip? Or maybe George P. took my comment on a
>Revised and Expanded 4th edition, sort of like WEG's R&E 2nd ed of Star
>Wars RPG, to heart. (which was a *really* big seller, BTW. Wonder if
>that played into the decision. If so, expect whatever it is to have
>*great* artwork to attract the newbies)
Let's all repeat it together:
"I can niether confirm nor deny that such a product is in the planning
stages. I am no longer at liberty to discuss this topic."
Scott
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:52:47 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> Besides, Doug, surely you've been reading about The Ultimate Super
> Vehicle that I've been working on (I think you even gave some helpful
> input), to say nothing of my mention of Northwest Champions and a VOICE
> update, and Shelley's current work on a PRIMUS book? (Michael's Kazei 5
> book could also count, if you include Dark Champions and don't insist that
> it be Champions Universe related.)
Hey, Kazei Five isn't a Dark Champions book! It's a worldbook set in it's
own universe! And uh... (Mike takes a look at some of the characters in
his manuscript) Okay, so maybe it *is* a Dark Champions book, but it is
supposed to be an update of sorts to CyberHero (which tops the
'questionable use of limitations' list).
> And who knows what else might be in the works from authors not
> associated with this list? By this time next year, there could be a couple
> dozen Champions titles out from Hero Plus.
Or, GRG. Hey, there are other genres than Champions!
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:54:37 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Odd Combat
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> A combination of this discussion and a scene early in "Blind Fury"
> brings this idea to mind:
> How about a character who beats up the bad guys... by *accident*? He
> just turns and swings a arm, and... POW!
> Probably Martial Arts with No Conscious Control?
Depends. Is the aim of the character that he makes it look like an
accident, or he just gets lucky?
If the former, I'd suggest a combination of martial maneuvers and skill
levels. The latter should get a bunch of skill levels with a limitation.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:57:42 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Green Hornet conversion
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
> << Actually, you could put it down as both SID and Public ID. The Green
> Hornet has the SID of Britt Reid, while Britt has the problem of being *very*
> well known in the local area. People know him on sight, know where he works,
> etc. >>
>
> I've always allowed well reasoned applications of SID and PID, like that.
> It's reflective of the genre. ;)
I've also considered SID to be useable to represent things other han a
'secret ID'. In my Wildcards adaptions, I had such things as 'SID:
homosexual' or 'SID: former spy'. I have also given out things like 'SID:
agents names are classified', or 'Public ID: vehicle in question is
commercially avaliable' (for a very unusual hovercar used by a superteam).
> << Batman should almost get something like this, as well as Tony Stark.>>
>
> Why should Batman get Tony Stark? ;)
So Batman could get a butt-kicking suit of powered 'bat-armor' why else?
^_^
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:59:11 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> Wow. Versatile power. So, you have a Multipower OAF, one slot HA (the
>> clubbing effect), one slot Autofire EB (really small, with charges) and...
>> after you throw the Autofire EB, you get caltrops? How do you write *that*
>> up? lol
>
> That would be a small EB linked to a Ranged Martial Throw, AE 1
>hex, triggered by walking in hex, linked to the autofire EB slot of the
>MP.
>
> Sound good?
>
Yeah, I'm just trying to figure out how to limit it so that it has an
Activation roll based on # of dice, and how it *may* affect the hex that
the person you hit with the Autofire EB (dice) with, even though you hit
them... and you lose the HA when you throw the dice.
Ha. Well.
- Jerry
Yeah, I'm done now. Thanks. : )
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:05:41 EST
Subject: Re: GRG: San Angelo, 5th Edition, and my Game Store...
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< Just finished reading San Angelo (downloaded), and I must say I'm
impressed.
I can't wait until it comes out. >>
Thank you. We're working hard to make this a very usable product for all
Champions fans. I'm glad it meets your approval.
<< I love the idea of the Flux. It is something I would gladly welcome. >>
We like it, too. ;) Simple, yet diverse enough to allow any special effect
you desire.
<< I just don't understand why you want San Angelo to be apart from the
Champions
Universe. >>
Because we're starting from scratch, so to speak, in order to present a more
cohesive line of products in which we can maintain continuity.
<< And lastly, I have had my Gaming Store pull out there order forms for
games,
and all Gold Rush Games and Champions stuff they can order is either old
stuff or Fuzion stuff. >>
That's true. HA2 was released last August, and we haven't published a 4th Ed
book since then. San Angelo is due out in January. Layouts have begun. ;)
<< They never heard of Heroic Adventures Volume 1 or 2 >>
Your store can order them, if they like. Every distributor can order more,
if needed.
<< ...but the manager up there has at least heard of San Angelo though he saw
nothing official yet. >>
Wow! He's heard of San Angelo? Our marketing is working! :D
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:05:44 EST
Subject: Conventions and such
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< On another note, would you be interested in any additional playtesters,
convention reps, and all around good guys (and gals) in the Columbus/Dayton,
Ohio area? >>
Always. Drop us a line.
as for convention support, we've been severely lacking in this area, but I
willing to start supporting them in any way we can. Suggestions are welcome.
Generally we donate prizes in return for an ad in the convention booklet, but
we're open to ideas.
Convention organizers should contact us via mail or private e-mail.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:05:50 EST
Subject: Re: My BBB's falling apart!
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< What is your mailing address (or the address you would like the books sent
to)? >>
Gold Rush Games
9529 Big Timber Drive
Elk Grove, CA 95758
Note that this is NOT the address for general correspondence. KJeep our PO
box address in your files. ;)
<< How do you want the $3 (personal check, money order, cash)? >>
Check, money order, or credit card (Visa/MC)
<< Asking as one of the few who do not already own HeroMaker, can I include
some extra money for a copy of the software? >>
No. But you can send $25 to Hero Games for a copy of it. ;) We're all out.
<< Finally, about long do you think it'll take for delivery? 6-8 weeks? >>
The turnaround should be faster, but we're required by FTC regulations to
advicse you that it may take 4-6 weeks for delivery.
Mark @ GRG
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition concluded
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:07:12 -0800
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 20
On Monday, December 15, 1997 1:09 PM, Christopher Taylor wrote:
>Last but not least, a simple way of handling damage. There are two
damage
>structures, normal and killing. Each one has a ranged and a STR adds
damage
>element. Thus, structure them like this:
>
> NORMAL ATTACK: 5 points per die, defined either as ranged or
STR
>adds damage.
>
> KILLING ATTACK: 15 points per die, defined as either ranged
or STR
>adds damage.
>
> +1/2: add ranged or STR adds damage as an element to the
attack.
>
>voila, consistent, simple, fits the damage class structure, and works
with
>the present system.
Unfortunately, for the same 5 points per die, I could buy STR, which
would add the same amount of damage _and_ lift _and_ grabs _and_ adds
to figured characteristics.
Filksinger
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com>
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:22:14 CST
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> << 1. "We don't expect players happy with Champions to switch to Fuzion." >>
> This is true.
> << 2. "We don't plan on doing a 5th edition at this time". >>
> That was true.
> << 3. "We are not going to stop supporting 4th edition". >>
> This is true.
> << 4. "Any future CHAMPIONS material will be released through HERO PLUS".>>
> This is not true, any more. Future Champions products will also be coming
> from GRG. What the heck do you think I've been promoting here this lpast week
> or so? :D
I'm just quoting anything HERO folks might have said in relation to
a new edition of HERO.
;)
--
=========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist, (217) 239-8365 =
= Computer Sciences Corporation, Champaign, IL dmckinne@cmi.csc.com =
= Winter War XXV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 6-8, 1998 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org (217) 469-9917 =
=========================================================================
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:23:25 CST
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> > > Look at the version in Hero's Digital Hero instead. I expect this
> > >is what we'll be seeing in any new version. Oh, and note the KA option as
> > >well; I'd expect KA to just be an advantage on normal attacks.
> >
> > I've seen that one. It's not bad, but I like Opal's better.
>
> I'm leaning toward the Digital Hero one, but considering my own
> variation:
Ok: what's Digital HERO?
DonM.
--
=========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist, (217) 239-8365 =
= Computer Sciences Corporation, Champaign, IL dmckinne@cmi.csc.com =
= Winter War XXV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 6-8, 1998 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org (217) 469-9917 =
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:23:51 -0600
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
Cc: Germania@airmail.net
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
One of the PCs in my pulp campaign has heightened physical abilities, and is so close to the Aryan ideal that he took the Disad, "Hunted by Nazis for breeding experiments". So imagine being captured by the Nazis and escorted to a private suite by a dozen beautiful Valkyrie maidens... and then meeting the ideal of German motherhood, Germania...
It's either that, or Dr. Qual gets out "der Pump"...
Euuuugh.
Guy
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com>
Subject: Re: Art in GRG's Hero books
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:27:02 CST
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> >> You haven't seen his San Angelo illos yet. ;) If I thought his work was
> >> substandard, I wouldn't have commissioned him to do stuff for SA. Wait 'till
> >> you see it.
> >
> ><cough> No... but I have seen his stuff from Mystic Masters and Kingdom of
> >Champions, and I have always thought his material was pretty rotten.
>
> But that was almost a decade ago. One would assume that he's improved since then.
Perhaps in our attempt to assist in "revising" and "expanding" the existing
edition of the HERO rules, we might let them know what ART we NEVER, ever
want to see again?
DonM.
--
=========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist, (217) 239-8365 =
= Computer Sciences Corporation, Champaign, IL dmckinne@cmi.csc.com =
= Winter War XXV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 6-8, 1998 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org (217) 469-9917 =
=========================================================================
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com>
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:37:21 CST
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> >> << 2. "We don't plan on doing a 5th edition at this time". >>
> >>
> >> That was true.
> >
> > Isn't that a slip? Or maybe George P. took my comment on a
> >Revised and Expanded 4th edition, sort of like WEG's R&E 2nd ed of Star
> >Wars RPG, to heart. (which was a *really* big seller, BTW. Wonder if
> >that played into the decision. If so, expect whatever it is to have
> >*great* artwork to attract the newbies)
>
> Let's all repeat it together:
>
> "I can niether confirm nor deny that such a product is in the planning
> stages. I am no longer at liberty to discuss this topic."
Twas three months after Gen Con,
The gamers were sad.
The HERO folks had moved over to Fuzion,
and even Foxbat was mad.
Then the guy from Gold Rush
came up to the list...
He brought comments on gaming
he brought product lists...
He gave us some hope,
he even filled us with glee,
even if I just had to see
another WoTC spot on my TV
Then he accidentally blurted those words
those enchanting, delightful, glorious words:
"What would you want to see in a fifth edition"
and the list was filled joyous rendition
as gamers pulled out from messages past
the ideas they'd put away because it hadn't come to pass
Then as the list boiled and churned
with such activity
the guy from gold rush said apologizingly:
"I can no longer discuss this topic with liberty."
And the list stopped, and all was hushed
where moments before there had been such a rush
we all realized again that our chances were zero
We'd get fifth edition when we'd get Star Hero.
DonM.
--
=========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist, (217) 239-8365 =
= Computer Sciences Corporation, Champaign, IL dmckinne@cmi.csc.com =
= Winter War XXV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 6-8, 1998 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org (217) 469-9917 =
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:43:40 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> > Isn't that a slip? Or maybe George P. took my comment on a
> >Revised and Expanded 4th edition, sort of like WEG's R&E 2nd ed of Star
> >Wars RPG, to heart. (which was a *really* big seller, BTW. Wonder if
> >that played into the decision. If so, expect whatever it is to have
> >*great* artwork to attract the newbies)
>
> Let's all repeat it together:
>
> "I can niether confirm nor deny that such a product is in the planning
> stages. I am no longer at liberty to discuss this topic."
Well, he can't. But we can.
Has anyone here bought or read through WEGs 2nd ed R&E? It really
is about the best RPG product I've seen. The quality is high, it is well
organized for the experienced gamer, and it is an excelent hook for the
newbie. The book sold big-time for more reason than the increased
interest in Star Wars. They've always had the game, this book just got
everyone -- both old timers with the previous editions and people new to
the game -- to buy. Seems that's what we need, n'est-ce pas?
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:47:05 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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> > I'm leaning toward the Digital Hero one, but considering my own
> > variation:
>
> Ok: what's Digital HERO?
Hero Game's online magazine. It has Fuzion to 4th ed conversions
of the C:NM and Alliances characters and a selection of articles for 4th
edition and Fuzion. It's really a new forum for Adventurer's Club.
Bruce updates it about once every week or two, though It's been a
while (Dec 4th) since the last upgrade.
They're also taking submissions.
Try http://www.herogames.com
Follow the links to Digital Hero.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:49:29 -0800
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger)
Subject: Re[2]: Art in GRG's Hero books
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Michael Surbrook wrote, in response to GRGames:
>> Albert Deschesne
>Sorry, his stuff has never looked any good. I can draw better than
>him by a long shot.
I've gamed with Albert for the past year, and when I first met him,
I thought "Oh yeah, this is the guy who did those crappy drawings
for Mystic Masters".
But we were discussing his art just last week, and he told me that
he was given an incredibly tight schedule for that art...like 12
pieces in one week. I've seen some of his character designs and
artwork that he's done lately, and he has improved a huge amount.
Wait til the book comes out before you pass judgement on his art.
Richard
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:49:58 -0500
Subject: is anybody there???
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From: alkmist@juno.com (alex k mist)
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is the list still up, haven't gotten a thing in 4 days?
Alex
alkmist@juno.com
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
TRG> True. However, this is a difference of attack and non-attack
TRG> powers.
I disagree. There are no "attack powers" in Champions.
TRG> As non-attack powers can be used together as much as desired, up to
TRG> any potential END or framework considerations, linked is a definate
TRG> disadavantage. This is less likely with combat powers.
Then why are the book examples of powers generally used offensively? And
why is the bonus the same for all powers if some should be treated
differently from others?
Because the limitation of Linked is simple: the power with the limitation
can only and must only be used with the power to which it is linked. It
cannot be used by itself.
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X-Sender: shelley@mail.mactyre.net
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:06:17 -0800
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <shelley@mactyre.net>
Subject: Re:
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 02:23 PM 12/16/97 -0600, Guy Hoyle wrote:
>One of the PCs in my pulp campaign has heightened physical abilities, and
is so close to the Aryan ideal that he took the Disad, "Hunted by Nazis for
breeding experiments". So imagine being captured by the Nazis and escorted
to a private suite by a dozen beautiful Valkyrie maidens... and then
meeting the ideal of German motherhood, Germania...
>
>It's either that, or Dr. Qual gets out "der Pump"...
>
>Euuuugh.
ROTFLMAO. That is so funny, Guy, I can't even tell you. "Der Pump,"
indeed. It's really "die Pumpe." <grin>
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
www.mactyre.net
Your children will see the stars.
--Robert A. Heinlein
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:11:13 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Art in GRG's Hero books
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> Perhaps in our attempt to assist in "revising" and "expanding" the existing
> edition of the HERO rules, we might let them know what ART we NEVER, ever
> want to see again?
I've never much liked that big bulky Brick-like guy with the
goggles in the BBB. Was he in Champions I (3rd ed) as well?
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:11:49 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Art in GRG's Hero books
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On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
> > Perhaps in our attempt to assist in "revising" and "expanding" the existing
> > edition of the HERO rules, we might let them know what ART we NEVER, ever
> > want to see again?
>
> I've never much liked that big bulky Brick-like guy with the
> goggles in the BBB. Was he in Champions I (3rd ed) as well?
Uh... you talking about 'bulging-muscles man' on S33? That's a Mike
Witherby piece and all of that dates from 3rd Edition and before.
Note to GRG - please dump all Mark Williams and Mike Witherby artwork from
any possible 5th Edition, that stuff looks *so* dated!
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:16:02 CST
Cc: Germania@airmail.net, champ-l@omg.org
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> One of the PCs in my pulp campaign has heightened physical abilities, and=
> is so close to the Aryan ideal that he took the Disad, "Hunted by Nazis=
> for breeding experiments". So imagine being captured by the Nazis and=
> escorted to a private suite by a dozen beautiful Valkyrie maidens... and=
> then meeting the ideal of German motherhood, Germania...
>
> It's either that, or Dr. Qual gets out "der Pump"...
Oh my god - I have a villian PC from a villian campaign who might be
his son!
ROFL!
DonM.
--
=========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist, (217) 239-8365 =
= Computer Sciences Corporation, Champaign, IL dmckinne@cmi.csc.com =
= Winter War XXV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 6-8, 1998 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org (217) 469-9917 =
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:17:15 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
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On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Don McKinney wrote:
> Ok: what's Digital HERO?
Hero Games website has a section called 'Digital Hero' where they post all
sorts of Hero System and Fuzion articles.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:40:55 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Berserk Mail Volume
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I can't help but notice how in the last week or so the mail volume has shot
through the roof on this list. Of course, much of this can be attributed to
Gold Rush Games showing face on the list, but I thought it would be a good
idea to remind people of some of the 'basic' etiquette regarding posting.
1.) Don't post "me too" responses (not even to this message ^_^).
2.) Don't quote large volumes of material with a very short reply - i.e. try
to make new material a significant portion of the message.
3.) Stay on topic.
4.) No flaming.
5.) If you change the topic, change the subject line. This helps to avoid
confusion and facilitates following a thread.
6.) Don't reply both to the list and the person who wrote the message you're
replying too (I realize that some of you will be unable to do this :-/).
People writing to the list are generally on the list, and getting the same
thing twice sucks.
7.) You are not morally responsible for responding to every reply to one of
your previous messages. You can make a point to three people by replying to
one person.
If everyone considers the above 'rules of thumb', few difficulties should
arise. I would like to make one request, however: People who do a _lot_ (10+
?) of daily posting, please collect your responses into a single post, where
possible and reasonably convenient - especially where it all deals with the
same topic.
Don't get me wrong, lots of volume is _good_, but I'd prefer a higher signal
to noise ratio...more meat, less filler!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:57:51 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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> TRG> True. However, this is a difference of attack and non-attack
> TRG> powers.
>
> I disagree. There are no "attack powers" in Champions.
And you can continue to believe your delusions. However, those of
us that have had actual constructive debate recognize that there is a
difference as well as a difference in effectivness.
> TRG> As non-attack powers can be used together as much as desired, up to
> TRG> any potential END or framework considerations, linked is a definate
> TRG> disadavantage. This is less likely with combat powers.
>
> Then why are the book examples of powers generally used offensively? And
> why is the bonus the same for all powers if some should be treated
> differently from others?
Because it was decided that losing some effectiveness of each
power linked together makes up for the (possible) increased flexibility
and utility.
> Because the limitation of Linked is simple: the power with the limitation
> can only and must only be used with the power to which it is linked. It
> cannot be used by itself.
Right, but it must also limit the power it is linked to to provide
for that construction as well as for balance's sake. What I'm saying is
that, especially for any attack powers in a Multipower or other Framework,
I'm going to disallow linked and use the 3rd edition construction of "two
powers as one"
So we would have this:
60 MP Light Powers
6 -1) u. 12D6 EB 6
6 -2) u. 6D6 Flash 6
6 -3) u. 8d6 EB w/ 6
2D6 Flash
Season to taste, of course.
I'm thinking this should help to avoid the problems I've had, as I
said, with a couple of Rules Cheats trying to get "linked" to Block or STR
usage or "Being Hit".
-Tim Gilberg
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
>> I disagree. There are no "attack powers" in Champions.
TRG> And you can continue to believe your delusions.
Everything you have called an "attack power" is really a Standard Power
used in an offensive capacity.
It is the way that a power is used that makes using it an attack action.
If you cannot grasp this simple concept then you are the one that is
deluded. Hero is the the most flexible "generic" system out there because
one can do anything with it -- okay, almost anything. You delude yourself
by enforcing restrictions that do not exist, and you cripple the system's
flexability by doing so.
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Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:31:44 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: nexus@uky.campus.mci.net
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net>
Subject: Aid and Powers
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Some recent discussion on the list brought up an aspect of the Aid power I
had never considered. Can Aid be used to grant powers that the target
doesn't have? For that matter can the other adjustment powers? Say an
aborption to energy blast that gives the user an energy blast they don't
normally have acess to.
I know violence doesn't solve all problems...
But it sure feels good!
Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:43:04 -0600
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Germania
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Thanks for the German grammar lesson. I need to find some good German phrases to use for this scenario. And I think that I can work a zeppelin in, too...
Aren't Nazis just perfect villains?
Guy
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
On 12/16/97, at 1:06 PM, Shelley Chrystal Mactyre wrote:
>At 02:23 PM 12/16/97 -0600, Guy Hoyle wrote:
>>One of the PCs in my pulp campaign has heightened physical abilities, and
>is so close to the Aryan ideal that he took the Disad, "Hunted by Nazis for
>breeding experiments". So imagine being captured by the Nazis and escorted
>to a private suite by a dozen beautiful Valkyrie maidens... and then
>meeting the ideal of German motherhood, Germania...
>>
>>It's either that, or Dr. Qual gets out "der Pump"...
>>
>>Euuuugh.
>
>ROTFLMAO. That is so funny, Guy, I can't even tell you. "Der Pump,"
>indeed. It's really "die Pumpe." <grin>
>
>Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
>www.mactyre.net
>
>Your children will see the stars.
>--Robert A. Heinlein
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:44:26 EST
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< And the list stopped, and all was hushed
where moments before there had been such a rush
we all realized again that our chances were zero>>
<LOL> Great poem! Btw, I never, ever, ever said that there wouldn't be one.
I'm just not able to discuss it right now.
Mark @ GRG
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:06:41 EST
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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In a message dated 97-12-16 08:57:02 EST, you write:
<< >nor the use of the larger Power without the
>use of the Linked Power. Those are *extremely* important balancers
for
>this Limitation.
Wrong. In fact, whether or not you can use the larger power without
using the smaller power is one of the primary points of debate in The
Great Linked Debate.
>>
I'll just throw this out and see what people on the list think... but if the
Limitation is only applied to the smaller of the two powers, wouldn't that by
definition mean that the larger of the powers shouldn't be affected by
anything in a negative way. In other words, since there isn't any Limitation
on the larger power, shouldn't it be able to act just as any other like power
with no Limitation? I know there is a school of thought that the two powers
become a new power, but it seems wrong to me to 'limit' the larger power, when
you aren't getting any Limitation price break on it.
'Lynx
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:09:04 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
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>Some recent discussion on the list brought up an aspect of the Aid power I
>had never considered. Can Aid be used to grant powers that the target
>doesn't have? For that matter can the other adjustment powers? Say an
>aborption to energy blast that gives the user an energy blast they don't
>normally have acess to.
IMO, no, you shouldn't be able to Aid someone if they don't have the power.
That's what 'Useable By Others' exists for. The same logic applies to
Absorption; if you don't have the power, how can you absorb to it?
The best way of sidestepping this is to buy the minimum amount of power (in
the case of energy blast, buy at least 10 points worth. Then take the
limitation: "Must be Aided/Absorbed/Transfered to in order to be used". What
this limitation costs is variable; for example, if you have an Absorption
vs. PD, this is a small limitation (slap me, Wonder Guy, so I can access my
powers!), say (-1/4) to (-1/2). If you have to Transfer somebody else's
Extra-Dimensional Movement power into your Superleap, then it's easily a (-2).
Another potential sidestep is to use a Minor Transform to give someone
'potential' power, and then the Aid gives them 'real' power. Though this
could even be a Cosmetic Transform, but I'll err on the side of 'more
expensive' where Transform is concerned.
Or you could just buy minimum cost UBO powers and use Aid to boost them up.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:15:56 EST
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editi
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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In a message dated 97-12-16 10:23:44 EST, you write:
<< > > Don't duck and cover just yet. :^| To begin with, the only thing really
> > wrong with the original HA isn't really something wrong with HA: its
price.
> > HA costs 3 pts. because 1d6 worth of STR cost 5 points. One is left with
> > either the option of raising STR's cost, or living with HA.
>
> Raising STR's cost is really close to the top of the priority queue of
> things to be changed in 5th Edition, IMO.
I think it would also be at the top of the list of new rules ignored if
they did change the cost;)
TokyoMark
>>
I agree... Str is not broken. If there must be something fixed, make it HA.
'Lynx
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:18:20 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
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> Some recent discussion on the list brought up an aspect of the Aid power I
> had never considered. Can Aid be used to grant powers that the target
> doesn't have? For that matter can the other adjustment powers? Say an
No. This is a terrible idea. Many opportunities for abuse. I'd
really go with a transform here, or make a power UBO.
> aborption to energy blast that gives the user an energy blast they don't
> normally have acess to.
I'd buy it at a minimum level first with a limitation, "Can't use
until X points are absorbed"
-Tim Gilberg
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:31:34 -0800
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On Monday, December 15, 1997 2:26 PM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 09:31 AM 12/15/97 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>>On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>> - Explosion should be +3/4 so it doesn't cost the same as AE:
One Hex.
>>
>>The increased precision given by AE: One Hex balances the somewhat-
>>increased damage of Explosion. Leave them the same.
>
> What increased precision? Both are against DCV 3.
The abillity to hit a high DCV character with a 10d6 EB, without
killing the bystanders in the next hex.
<snip>
Filksinger
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:56:30 -0800
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On Monday, December 15, 1997 5:28 PM, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>
>
>On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Guy Hoyle wrote:
>
>> >>If there are any extensive changes at all, I wouldn't mind seeing
>> >>something like (but not exactly like) the "Incomplete Character"
>> >rules.
>> >
>> >Yes. I would definitely like to see something like that.
>> >
>> >Some people hate the Spirit rules, I rather like them. I would
like to
>> >see them expanded upon, possibly as part of the "Incomplete
Character"
>> >rules, and cleaned up a bit.
>>
>> I agree. The spirit rules made it possible for RuneQuest-like
spirits,
>> which are extremely difficult to do with Desolid, Mind Control,
etc., and
>> to retain the same feel.
>>
>>
>Not to mention such comics characters as the Swamp Thing, the
Construct,
>Kilg%re, Deadman, etc.
It also allows for a reasonably priced Astral Projection.
Additionally, it avoids the admittedly ridiculous idea of using
Adjustment powers to make a spirit solid.
Filksinger
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:02:40 -0800
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On Monday, December 15, 1997 5:48 PM, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
<snip>
>Say, how would one do drunken fighting, anyway? I know there's a
section
>on it in Ninja Hero, under Kung Fu, and they list -2 OCV/DCV later in
NH,
>but...
>Drunken Fighters get *better* when they are drunk, right? So, CSL,
only
>when drunk?
>
Uh, no, they don't. When using a Drunken system, you sway and
otherwise imitate a drunk. Whether or not you are drunk has nothing to
do with it.
As a side note, years ago I was looking at a book on a form of Drunken
Man Kung Fu. The forward was the most honest I have seen in a martial
arts book dedicated to a single form. It stated outright that Drunken
Man Kung Fu was for show only, and useless as a combat form.
Filksinger
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:42:18 -0500
From: "Kevin J. McClain" <KevLord@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: KevLord@worldnet.att.net
Organization: Courts of Kirkwood
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: That's What I Want...
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Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
> Okay, I hope this doesn't sound too stupid. I was always under the
> impression that you rolled the dice, counted the *total* and used that as
> the BODY able to be absorbed... not the *BODY* total on the dice.
> I guess my way gives you even more power, huh?
> Can someone explain it to me, please?
>
You are absolutely correct for absoprtion. The TOTAL rolled is the amount of body
you can absorb.
From: "Robert" <baron@stlnet.com>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editio
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:45:18 -0600
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----------
> From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
> To: champ-l@omg.org
> Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editio
> Date: Tuesday, December 16, 1997 12:26 PM
>
> << You mean the one done by George Perez? With Seeker jumping to attack
Dr.
> Destroyer (presumably without effect and a lot of pain on Seeker's side)?
> Why does it need to be changed?>>
>
> Because I think after X years of the same cover it's time for a
facelift,
> that's all. We're trying to reach a new market, or at least expand our
market
> for 4th Edition. Do you disagree?
>
> Mark @ GRG
I think you'll need to get either George or one of a handfull of artists to
even TRY to top your last. Please.... call George again or Alex Ross if you
insist on doing another cover but do NOT get anywhere near anything that
looks like Rob Liefeld.
Please....
Really....
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:13:38 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Message Numbers
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-- A query to those who have been here the longest.
Does the message count here go down over Christmas? I'm going
away for a little over two weeks soon and I would like to know when I get
back, will the message count be over or under 3000?
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
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Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:14:04 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editi
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> I agree... Str is not broken.
But it most certainly is. Besides granting such wonderful damage
at the standard 5pts per DC, it grants lifting ability, Superleap, Skill
roll levels, and figured stats. It's worth more than 1 pt per pt.
> If there must be something fixed, make it HA.
The above said, I'd probably ignore a ruling that changed STR
simply because it would change all the accounting on all of my characters.
Also, I feel that the "deal" that is gotten with STR is equaled out by the
deals available to non-Str based powers and characters (ie, non-Bricks).
Power Frameworks for EPs and Mentalists and the MA packages for MAs help
to balance the cost by giving any potential character some sort of
"deal" to work with.
I'd go with a straight HA fix.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:23:36 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Slipperiness
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
> This is what I currently have down for the effect of a Slick. Tell me
> what you think.
>
> If the Transform is successful, then the ground becomes slippery.
> Characters and vehicles using Ground Movement must make a DEX Roll at -3
> (or a Combat Vehicle Operations or similar Roll at no penalty) when
> entering the hex or lose control (see Chapter Three for more details on
> this). Even if this Roll is successful, a second Roll at -2 (in addition
> to any other Modifiers) must be made if the character or vehicle attempts
> to accelerate, decelerate, or turn while in the affected area.
> At the GM's option, every BODY pip above the 16 needed to successfully
> enact the Transform, up to the maximum that can be rolled on the dice, adds
> another -1 to the DEX or Combat Vehicle Operations Rolls.
>
> Point of Clarification: Combat Vehicle Operations means either Combat
> Driving, Combat Piloting, or an equivalent Skill (like Combat Robot
> Operations).
> I'm thinking of adding a provision where targets using feet for
> transportation would also have to make a DEX or Combat Vehicle Operations
> Roll every Phase.
Thats pretty good. Although, I would dispute the requirement to have a
target of 16 to transform a hex. After all, you are only doing the surface. A hex
is 2 metres high? That hex of dirt contains 16 body. You only want to transform
.2 metres (8 inches - still very deep but lets see). This is one tenth a hex,
hence you only need to transform 2 body per hex. Spread the "hex" out to get your
volume and cover 8 hexes for your 16 body target. Or apply an area effect line
(oil slick behind the vehicle).
But you still haven't applied a modifier to your travel speed. You hit a
slick and stop (fell over, hit something, whatever). Regain control (made you dex
roll) and start off again. You inches of running or driving will not be able to be
fully applied. Big number pluck - call it half speed until free of the area. Give
the affect device or hero a bonus like they have for stealth vs hearing perceptions
on page 138 in the BBB.
--
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Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
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Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:28:52 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage o
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Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>
> Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> >>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
> >
> >F> Uh, I can think of a number of SFX that would allow both separate and
> >F> together uses of a power.
> >
> >I like real-world examples: M-16A2 with grenade launcher. Use the rifle,
> >use the grenade launcher, or use both. The last is unwieldly, but it can
> >be done.
> >
> Um... not safely. Usually, you have to aim the M-16/M-203 combination *up*
> at an angle, in order to hit a distant target with the grenade (not really
> a grenade). You would miss with the rifle. You also have to pull 2
> triggers, so you're getting a *big* minus to hit (IMO).
> Now, you *could*, I suppose, fire them both at the same *very close*
> target, but then you get hit with the "grenade" damage as well.
A Hero's life is never easy!!!
--
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Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
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Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:33:41 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th edition
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-- Anthony Jackson wrote:
>
> bobby farris writes:
> > At the risk of getting lynched I would like to say that one thing
> > Fuzion did that I would like to see in a 5th edition of Champions is the
> > change in the Damage class table.
> > Make Damage class three killing attack be 3d6K not 1d6K. It would make
> > it a lot less confusing.
> > I think it wouldn't destroy any 4th edition characters just make it
> > where you had to do a little math before you used them(math is something
> > no Champions player should have a problem with).
>
> While obliterating the stun lottery has a certain appeal, I don't think that
> making a 12 DC killing attack average 42 body would be a particularly good
> idea....
> The ratio between 'ability to do stun' and 'ability to kill things' in HERO is
> a bit low (fear my pistol; I cannot possibly kill you with it, but I can sure
> knock you unconscious!), but I think Fuzion took it a bit too far in the other
> direction.
You know, the group I play with used to think that about pistols too.
Until we played a bit more super agents. Those head and vital shots KILLED!
Its the usually high defences used by heroes that makes pistols really good
paper weights.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
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Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:53:16 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: 5th edition cont'd
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-- Christopher Taylor wrote:
<<Snipped>>
> BEING KNOCKED OUT: As written, the unconsciousness levels are by an easy
> formula of 10 point blocks. This is simpler to work with, but is not as
> realistic as it could be. For greater believability, the system used is
> similar, but the first level (up to -10 = recover each phase) is now up to
> -CON, so a victim with a 23 CON would have to be taken below -24 stun (more
> than their 23 CON) to move to the next level of unconsciousness. From that
> point on, it is the standard 10 point steps. This helps represent that it
> is harder to put down a very tough guy and make him stay.
> I think something like this was used in a previous incarnation of
Champions.
> This one is a really good idea:
> BLOCK: A block maneuver as now listed is pathetically easy. The system now
> used is somewhat more challenging, and represents the fact that a more
> expertly executed attack is more difficult to avoid. The Block roll is
> attempted against the DCV the aggressor hit, so if A attacks B, and hits a 8
> DCV, B must make a block roll that would hit an 8 DCV in order to block that
> attack. This has the effect of making blocks much more difficult to
> achieve, thus the penalties on block and cost for martial art element block
> is in discussion.
> We have been doing this for years and doing the same thing for missile
deflection. Works well. Although as block is OCV vs OCV, we apply how much the
to hit was above and below 11 to the attackers OCV to determine what needs to be
blocked.
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Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
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Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:57:10 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: 5th edition cont'd
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Christopher Taylor wrote:
> IMAGES: no area effected... buy an area effect on it to increase the area,
> and use those rules to make it larger...
> So just how big of an image to you create with the base power. (Try
reading the cricket scores on a TV screen the size of a postage stamp and I'll
show you a waste of time.)
> TUNNELING: Tunneling can be bought in separate elements, 2 points for each
> inch of Tunneling, and 3 points per defense tunneled through.
Tunnelling already has seperate components. 1Def + 1" movement for 5
points, +1 Def per 3 points.
--
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Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
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Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:10:49 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: 5th edition, contd
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Christopher Taylor wrote:
>
> a suggested new power:
>
> IMMORTALITY: With this power the PC does not die when reduced to a negative
> number of BOD equal to their full BOD score. They may be reduced to
> immobile and helpless goo by a sufficient amount of BOD (-2xBOD), but will
> heal over time. This does not reduce the unpleasant affects of starvation,
> drowning, or dismemberment; powers such as life support and regeneration are
> required to deal with these effects. If the character can be killed by some
> means (such as decapitation, a stake through the heart, fire, etc.), the
> power is 20 points. If there is no way to actually kill the character, the
> power costs 30 points.
Would certainly get around that resurrection thread that happened last
week.
>
> HOLE IN THE MIDDLE: this should be redefined as making the power not affect
> FREINDS in an area like a hex, when a power affects you adversely to use,
> this is called a limitation....
Normally, the hole in the middle is only one hex, the hex you are standing
in. Its like a variation of personal immunity. If you don;t wont to hurt your
friends, make the power selective.
>
> SIDE EFFECTS: At the present cost, very low power effects are severely
> punished by this advantage. Thus, the chart is slightly different:
>
> -1/4 ½ the power level, minimum 20 PTS
> -1/2 equal to power level, minimum 50 PTS
Naw, just get rid of the minimum levels. You don't get any defences
against it, anyway.
> CHARGES: No number of charges is more than a +1/2 Advantage. Even
> thousands of charges is more limited than spending no endurance, also a
> +1/2 advantage. The exception to this is autofire, which has double cost
> for the Reduced END advantage; for autofire attacks, the charges advantage
> can go as high as +1.
>` Maybe....
> AREA EFFECT CONE: instead of having range and costing +1, this costs +1/2
> and has no range... ranged cones are really odd, certainly not the default,
> I would think.
I would normally agree with this but do you know just how big the cone is?
1" plus 1" per 5 points in the power! This makes more than double the "radius"
of AoE radius, albeit only on 1/6 of the circumfrence. But I also have never had
a Cone AoE ranged either.
> EXPLOSION: Explosions may be defined as Cones (losing 1 DC per 2") or Lines
> (losing 1 DC per 4"); this allows the simulation of shaped charges, claymore
> mines, etc.
Now, this is useable.
<<Snipped>>
>
> SEEKING: With this advantage, the attack will continue to attempt to hit a
> target until it succeeds. It is similar to continuous, in that the effect
> will act on it’s own, on the attacker’s phases, but different in that it
> will only take effect once. The attack is launched and the attacker must
> guide the attack, taking a half phase rolling to hit each phase until the
> attack succeeds. The power costs END only when first launched, and requires
> the attacker to be able to perceive the target for it to hit. If the
> attacker cannot see the target any longer, the seeker will launch into a
> straight line like a normal attack that missed, and stop when it hits a
> surface or at it’s maximum range. The direction traveled may be determined
> randomly if not clear, and as such may return to the attacker! For a +1/2
> advantage, the attacker can switch targets on his phase, choosing another
> person for the seeker to go after. Like Continuous, the attacker cannot
> launch another attack while the seeker is in effect. The seeking power may
> be shut off at any time by the attacker. With Uncontrolled, this power
> becomes very frightening, and with Autofire, it becomes horrific. Autofire
> must be bought with the extra cost if this advantage is used. Consider this
> advantage to have a stop sign next to it.
>
> Seeking is best used for gunboat style ‘mask and unmask’ type of attacks,
> and with limited uses. A charge does not begin to use it’s power until it
> actually hits, so the player does not need to buy continuous charges to use
> seeker.
>
> Base level: +1/4 advantage
> Can change targets: +1/2 advantage
Was it you who put this up before? I liked it then. I like it now.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
> Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
> -----------------------------------------------------------
--
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Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
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Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:19:30 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Champions
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GoldRushG wrote:
>
> I'm afraid I cannot address any more comments regarding a 5th Edition. It
> seems I misspoke earlier. I welcome your comments about what you'd like to see
> in future Hero System products from Gold Rush Games, however.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Mark Arsenault
> Gold Rush Games
A bit more detail, please. Just what sort of comments are you unable to
address. Legal? Production?
--
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Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
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Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:30:23 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: I can neither confirm nor deny I am carrying nuclear weapons
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Mark
-- Please disregard my lost post referencing lack of communications about
the 5th edition. Sounds like you are having a rough time of it.
We will just have to wait and see what comes out in the wash.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
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Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:32:38 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Message Numbers
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-- Matthew James Korth wrote:
>
> >-- A query to those who have been here the longest.
> >
> > Does the message count here go down over Christmas? I'm going
> >away for a little over two weeks soon and I would like to know when I get
> >back, will the message count be over or under 3000?
>
> If the message levels are what they have been, probably over. :)
>
> Seriously, though, the list is unusually active now, what with the threads that
> have been prompted by Mark Arsenault (the Gold Rush Games guy)--they'll die
> down eventually. *However*, if I were you, I'd unsubscribe before you leave;
> otherwise, you might wind up overflowing your mailbox quota.
Nuts, I was hoping that I wouldn't have to do that. Ah well. I don't leave
till Friday, so I'll stick to it till then.
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From: Pat10355 <Pat10355@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 22:55:10 EST
Subject: Re: GRG: San Angelo, 5th Edition, and my Game Store...
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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In a message dated 97-12-16 13:55:38 EST, psansone@i1.net writes:
<< Just finished reading San Angelo (downloaded), and I must say I'm
impressed.
I can't wait until it comes out. I love the idea of the Flux. It is
something I would gladly welcome. I've used magic as the source of all
power in some campaigns, but it falls apart every now and then. I just
don't understand why you want San Angelo to be apart from the Champions
Universe. I know, I can do whatever I want, and I will be basing it in the
Champions Universe. >>
Thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed the San Angelo: City of Heroes preview, and I
hope you find the final product just as much fun.
The decision to use San Angelo as the basis of a new campaign world came about
because we felt the Champions Universe had too many continuity problems and an
overall lack of cohesiveness. Not to belittle any of the work done on CU
products -- but the total of those products added up to a lot of confusion and
redundancy. We felt it was better to make a fresh start.
Creating a new universe also allowed us to set our own design criteria, as
outlined in the preview material -- a somewhat realistic treatment of the
genre, the creation of an overall theory behind the appearance of superpowers,
and so on.
And, as you note, San Angelo: City of Heroes encourages gamers to do whatever
they like with the book -- like using it in the CU.
Patrick Sweeney
San Angelo: City of Heroes
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 16 Dec 97 20:07:08 -0800
Subject: Champions5th Edition- ha
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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To: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
On 12-13-97 jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote to All...
> From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
> Subject: Champions5th Edition- ha
> To: champ-l@omg.org
>
> At 05:51 AM 12/13/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> > Opal has a fix for Hand Attack which most of the folks on the list
> like.
> > (I know Bill and I both do, but he and I tend to agree on things
> anyway.)
> > Hey Opal! Do you mind posting that again, for Mark? :-]
>
>
> ummm, this isn't that 'clearly seperate from the body' thang is it. .
> .?
Yeah, It was 'assumed to be somwhat separate..' I didn't much
like it either, but couldn't come up with a better phrasing.
The basic idea is if you can generate significantly more damage
than your STR, you can probably use the same force/leverage/whatever
to knock away attacks as well.
> Okay. . . it's time for everyone to post their thingies on ha. . . . .
>
> I actually worked out a 5 pt per d6 idea , where the advantage of ha
> is that str dice added *automatically* get the benifits of
> advantages (and lmitations) placed on the ha power , BUT only
> like hka- limited to one dice of str damage per dice of ha damage
> . . .
That's part of what I did to... great minds and all :)
Should definitely be part of a revised HA - it allows more reasonable
Strenght-feat and martial-arts-tricks Multipowers.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage o
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:09:30 -0800
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On Monday, December 15, 1997 6:55 PM, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
>>
>>F> Uh, I can think of a number of SFX that would allow both separate
and
>>F> together uses of a power.
>>
>>I like real-world examples: M-16A2 with grenade launcher. Use the
rifle,
>>use the grenade launcher, or use both. The last is unwieldly, but
it can
>>be done.
>>
>Um... not safely. Usually, you have to aim the M-16/M-203
combination *up*
>at an angle, in order to hit a distant target with the grenade (not
really
>a grenade). You would miss with the rifle. You also have to pull 2
>triggers, so you're getting a *big* minus to hit (IMO).
>Now, you *could*, I suppose, fire them both at the same *very close*
>target, but then you get hit with the "grenade" damage as well.
Quite true. A double-barreled shotgun, with a slug and a shotshell, is
a better example from the real world. There aren't many.
As a side note, I was once told by a gun store owner that the long
barreled (6", though 4" would do) Colt .45 derringer he was showing me
could hold .410 shotgun shells. And, since it is a pistol rather than
a shotgun, and the laws against sawed-off shotguns apply to the weapon
and not the shells, it was a _legal_ 6" shotgun.
The range must have _really_ sucked, though.
Filksinger
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 16 Dec 97 20:13:10 -0800
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editi
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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c >
c > In my games, I always give players the option of taking the
c > 'classic'
c > Acrobatics skill from 3rd ed. 10 pts. base for DEX roll, which
c > includes
c > all breakfall applications and can provide a +2 to dodge. Wait - was
c > that official, or was that a house rule my early GMs had? I remember
c > that +2 "Acrobatic Dodge" was standard in all my early/mid-80s Champs
c > games...
I liked the old Acrobatic DCV bonus. So, when I play an apropriate
character, I take Acrobatics, and +2 DCV levels on an Accrobatics
Roll -1/2, Total 10 pts. :) (of course I get the -1 for 10 Apts,
but since it's usually a character with at least a 14- dex roll...)
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 16 Dec 97 20:16:12 -0800
Subject: Re: Extra Time on a Trig
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> You sure about this? I couldn't see anything in the
> write-up about that. I put a trigger on an energy blast. You are
> saying that because I did that, I lose the ranged aspect of the
> blast?
>
I remember having fits coming up with a way around it, but
darnit, I don't have my BBB...
> I think the above device has been brought with a trigger
> but also as a foci. Hence, the mixing and loading of the needle,
> which takes 5 minutes, has already been done and all that remains
> is injecting it.
> --
Sounds more like Extra Time to me.... if the Trigger was the
injection, the triggered power would have to have been put on
the victim!
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editi
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:23:05 -0800
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On Monday, December 15, 1997 8:04 PM, Tokyo Mark wrote:
>> > Don't duck and cover just yet. :^| To begin with, the only thing
really
>> > wrong with the original HA isn't really something wrong with HA:
its price.
>> > HA costs 3 pts. because 1d6 worth of STR cost 5 points. One is
left with
>> > either the option of raising STR's cost, or living with HA.
>>
>> Raising STR's cost is really close to the top of the priority queue
of
>> things to be changed in 5th Edition, IMO.
>
>I think it would also be at the top of the list of new rules ignored
if
>they did change the cost;)
Agreed. We agreed to have no changes that invalidated a large number
of previously designed characters. _That_ would invalidate the cost
calculations of every character with STR greater or lesser than 10. If
a character has a good reason for costing X number of points, then you
have just invalidated those characters.
I like the suggestions on Digital Hero, myself. It doesn't change the
cost of HA at all, but it gives it many of the problems of a more
expensive power, such as not fitting as easily into Multipowers,
Elemental Controls, VPPs, and costing more END.
Filksinger
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 23:41:33 EST
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editi
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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In a message dated 97-12-16 20:23:48 EST, you write:
<< > I agree... Str is not broken.
But it most certainly is. Besides granting such wonderful damage
at the standard 5pts per DC, it grants lifting ability, Superleap, Skill
roll levels, and figured stats. It's worth more than 1 pt per pt.
> If there must be something fixed, make it HA.
The above said, I'd probably ignore a ruling that changed STR
simply because it would change all the accounting on all of my characters.
Also, I feel that the "deal" that is gotten with STR is equaled out by the
deals available to non-Str based powers and characters (ie, non-Bricks).
Power Frameworks for EPs and Mentalists and the MA packages for MAs help
to balance the cost by giving any potential character some sort of
"deal" to work with.
I'd go with a straight HA fix.
-Tim Gilberg
>>
So we're saying the same thing. Different paths, but the same thing. Ain't
life wonderful?
Happy Holidays,
'Lynx
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:49:08 -0800
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On Monday, December 15, 1997 8:57 PM, GoldRushG wrote:
><< - Interrogation should not *necessarily* be violent. ...an
attorney can
>use Interrogation to prompt a witness that she doesn't think is
telling the
>truth ("Need I remind you of the penalties for perjury?" and such).
Either
>that, or there should be a different Skill for this. >>
>
> How about Conversation?
>
> "This PRE-based Skill allows the character to extract information
from
>people with careful conversation. ...if the Skill is properly
performed, the
>victim won't be awarte he has divulged anything."
>
> Sounds like typical courtroom drama to me! <LOL>
Possibly. However, a "grilling" on the stand does _not_ leave the
person with the impression that they told you nothing. Conversation is
the skill whereby you talk to someone, and they reveal things that you
can use to deduce their secrets, not demanding they confess in various
intimidating ways until they crack.
Filksinger
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:56:40 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editio
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> << You mean the one done by George Perez? With Seeker jumping to attack Dr.
> Destroyer (presumably without effect and a lot of pain on Seeker's side)?
> Why does it need to be changed?>>
>
> Because I think after X years of the same cover it's time for a facelift,
> that's all. We're trying to reach a new market, or at least expand our market
> for 4th Edition. Do you disagree?
I hate to commit Heresy here, but if you want to pull in a new market, get
one
of the Image artists to do it. Just make sure the cheescake is either controlled,
or on
both genders. Or get Image's best, the artist of Astro City, to do a cover.
Personally I'd love to see a game suppliment with art from Craig Rousseau
(Impulse from DC
Comics), J. Scott Campbell (old Gen 13 artist), or Will Meugniot (artist for
first few issues of
DNAgents from Eclipse).
--
Rook
Super Hero Links Page:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 16 Dec 97 21:16:14 -0800
Subject: Incomplete Character Rul
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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On 12-14-97 redbf@ldd.net wrote to All...
r > Subject: Incomplete Character Rules
r >
r > I have never seen this. Where can I find it?
You can find the Incomplet Rules on the web at:
http://www.best.com/~jimalj/incomp.html
r > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
r > -
r > What do you mean she is dead? All I did was shoot her in the head with
r > my 4d6 RKA? How can she be dead?
r > Actually said by one of my players.
<shudder>
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 16 Dec 97 21:28:16 -0800
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editi
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> The trouble is, HA is NOT the normal-damage equivalent of HKA. There's
> need for such a power (a normal damage power that lets you add STR),
> the paradigm shifts for normal damage -- STR is not added to HA, HA is
> to STR, and that's the way it should be: /STR/ is the equivalent of
> HKA (you can use combat maneuvers with just STR, for example).
>
Any HA with Advantages (I'm talking about a 5pt version, not
the official one), becomes like a HKA: it transforms STR damage
into something else. Same goes for Energy HA. The type of
HA that just adds a few dice to STR is a special case, in this
version.
> > Though it cannot be 'spread' in the manner of an Energy
> >Blast, an HA can be manipulated to improve OCV at the price of
> >damage. Each 1d6 of damage sacrificed gives a +1 OCV. Since an
> >HA - even when not focused - is assumed to be somewhat separate
> >from the character using it, it can be used to Block an
> >opponent's attack.
>
> This is where I have the real problem: exactly why are HA's "assumed
> to besomewhat separate from the character using it"? The two most common
Because Opal couldn't come up with a good phrasing... The idea is
that most F/X that increase your STR damage are also going to be
useful in related ways... for instance:
> besides weapons (i.e. Focus) that I've seen HA used for in the past
> are
> superspeed punches and superdense skin. Neither is separate from the
> character in any fashion, and it seems like a far easier approach to
Well, superdense skin does imply defense, if it's tough enough to
deliver extra damage, it's probably tough enough to parry an attack
(the block bonus). Likewise, if you can do a superspeed punch, a
superspeed block certainly isn't much of a stretch - in fact it
represents the powerset better.
> buy OCV
> bonuses with combat levels in addition to HA damage than to box them
> together and force players to limit them out.
> --
> Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+
There are plenty of powers that could have bits of them taken out
and bought in a more 'standard' way. From spreading EBs, to the
DCV bonus from Shrinking, to the extra reach of Growth...
Putting HA at 5/die is a good idea, letting it be used to get some
CV mods - like a Spread EB, is one way of giving it sufficient
utility. That some characters will feel the need to limit that
out isn't a major problem, some characters put Beam on thier EBs
it's the same sort of thing.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 16 Dec 97 21:30:18 -0800
Subject: Back from the Dead
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CB> In effect, every time the charcter died, all he lost was the memories
CB> between the last recording and his death.
CB>
CB> Any idears on how to model this in champs...
CB>
CB> Chris
Believe it or not... Duplication. The Duplicate is created
when you make the recording, and is delayed until the character
dies... You lose some power points each time you die... but
hey, it's better than death.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 16 Dec 97 21:33:20 -0800
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editi
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t > > 1. Add an advantage called "Advantaged" which would be the exact
t > > counterpart to "Limited".
t >
t > Bad idea IMO. There's no need for it given an adequate set of Powers
t > and Advantages.
t >
Yep... there's a limit to how much you can shave off a power... because
eventually there's nothing left... there's no limit and no possible
guidelines for something like Advantaged...
t > > 12. Present options for both versions of linked. As well as a
t > 'Combine'
t > > advantage, or at least a suggestion on why not to have such an
t > advantage
t > > and how to otherwise achieve said special effect (ie: multipower
t > slots
t > > or whatever.)
t >
t > The system is considerably better balanced if you make "combinable"
t > the
t > default, IMO.
t > ---
Well, it would mean that two attack powers bought outside of a Multipower
are something other than just a waste of points...
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 00:36:25 EST
Subject: Re: That's What I Want...
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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In a message dated 97-12-16 23:53:06 EST, you write:
<< Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
> Okay, I hope this doesn't sound too stupid. I was always under the
> impression that you rolled the dice, counted the *total* and used that as
> the BODY able to be absorbed... not the *BODY* total on the dice.
> I guess my way gives you even more power, huh?
> Can someone explain it to me, please?
>
You are absolutely correct for absoprtion. The TOTAL rolled is the amount of
body
you can absorb. >>
That's correct. The BODY doesn't come into play until you determine how much
you actually absorb from the incoming attack. The TOTAL on your absorption
roll tells how much you can absorb for all hits you take that phase. Each
time during that phase you get hit, the BODY of the incoming attack becomes
the number you may absorb off that attack, as long as it doesn't go over what
you rolled on your absorption. example: you get hit by a 12 Body 43 Stun
attack and you roll 20 on your Absorption roll. You therefore can absorb all
12 points. That same phase, you get hit with another 10 Body 30 Stun attack.
Since you've already absorbed 12, you can only take on another 8 before you
reach your limit of 20. There is another limit to consider also. The total
possible number you can reach by rolling all 6s and adding any pluses in your
Absorption is the most you can have absorbed at any one time. Hope that
helps.
'Lynx
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 16 Dec 97 21:40:22 -0800
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage o
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t > > Huh? How would using two attacks at the same time change thier
t > > F/X? I mean, if Iron Man fires Repulsors and Unibeam at the
t > > same time, they're still Repulsors and it's still the Unibeam,
t > > they not sudenly Unipulsors or Mutant-powered eyebeams or
t > > anything...
t >
t > But as you are attacking with one attack roll the mix of powers
t > has become only one. There must be a gestalt SFX.
t >
t > -Tim Gilberg
t > ---
A gestalt F/X? But the F/X of the two components won't change...
there's no need or reason for them to. I'm probably just
missing your point, but I think maybe you're getting a bit
too technical with the rules...
Maybe this will help me: What power set would you give
Ironman for this specific example - how would you buy
the two attacks? And how would the combined-attack F/X
be defined?
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 16 Dec 97 21:44:24 -0800
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage o
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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t > I noticed, but that's not actually the point. MPs are designed to
t > give a savings for related powers, even if it doesn't say that in
t > their description. If a character wants an EB, a flash, and a
t > metapower
t > EB+flash in a MP, no problem. I'd say it works.
t > -Tim Gilberg
t > ---
And the fact that the cost is *so* close to just buying the
two powers straight-up doesn't speak to you at all?
Another question:
50 Multipower
5 u 10d EB
3 u 3d Flash
--
58
vs
50 10d EB
30 3d Flash
--
80
What is the 2nd character paying 22 points for?
(BTW this is a question that drove me nuts for
years after I started playing... the old Death
Comando & Wyvern write-ups started it). :)
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 16 Dec 97 21:45:26 -0800
Subject: Re: Slipperiness
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c > I state openly and unabashedly at this time that I have NO idea how
c > to properly define slipperyness myself....
c > --
Make a dex roll or fall down?
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: How do I buy these abilites??
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:54:16 -0800
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On Tuesday, December 16, 1997 5:56 AM, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
<snip>
>
>I agree this is pretty questionable, for the reasons you give. At the
risk
>of being pedantic, though, I'd disagree that Desolid FTL _exactly_
>duplicates Teleportation; different things (like Affects Desolid
defenses)
>stop it. This leaves a mechanism for being stopped or attacked along
the
>way, perhaps even by someone moving at the same speed, while Teleport
has
>no real capacity for that. (Of course, the GM could always fudge
something
>for those limited Teleports.)
A target, on Earth, traveling at lightspeed, would, if limited to the
surface of the Earth, reach the far side of the Earth in less than
1/7th of a second. Effectively instantaneous, for our purposes.
Attacked is pretty much out of the question, unless you were being
paced. (I will not bother calculating the DCV of an object traveling
at lightspeed. I would not allow any normal attack, even with a roll
of three, hit _that_.)
As for the Affects Desolid defenses, if you really consider those a
significant difference, then limit the Teleportation. If you don't
think that it is worth even a -1/4, then it isn't a significant
difference.
Filksinger
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 16 Dec 97 21:54:28 -0800
Subject: Champions 5th Ed Cover
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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G > From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
G > Subject: Champions 5th Ed Cover
G > To: champ-l@omg.org
G >
G > << Really? I thought it was pretty good. >>
G >
G > So do we. But we want the 5th Ed. book to have an even *better*
G > cover... ;)
G >
G > << I'd realy like to see the next panel, though: Seeker burried under
G > wall Doc D just squished him with, and the broken Katana stiking
G > out.... >>
G >
G > I know you were joking (at least I hope so), but I don't know if
G > we'll be featuring any of the CU characters on the cover. Just FYI.
G >
G > Mark @ GRG
Joking? Oh, yeah, of course...
Well, if I can't see Seeker squished by Doc D, I guess not having
him at all is the next best thing.
Could we get Marksman or Gargoyle on the cover?
How bout 'Gyro' Jim?
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 22:06:11 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
Subject: Favorite BBB pics (was Re: Art in GRG's Hero books)
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> > Perhaps in our attempt to assist in "revising" and "expanding" the existing
> > edition of the HERO rules, we might let them know what ART we NEVER, ever
> > want to see again?
Let me go the other way and list my favorite pics. Page numbers are Deluxe
BBB.
the guy with the floating globe on page 232.
The woman on the pole on page 235.
The 'Flash' pic on page 70.
The 'lightning' pic on page 53.
The group shot on page 206.
The treasure pic on page 45.
The woman on page 37.
the woman on page 75 who fails to notice the brick smashing something against her
back
The group shot on page 12.
The guy on page 'V'
>From the 1st printing of the BBB:
Page s12 "EgoMan" as we always called him, this guy is so silly looking he just
has to stay. He's been the
source of hundreds of in-house jokes since we first found him in third
edition. :)
That's my list of must-keep art.
Maybe add the Howler pic in there as well, and Crusader if that's done.
--
Rook
Super Hero Links Page:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
X-Sender: bsvitavs@acs-mail.bu.edu
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 01:17:00 -0500
From: bsvitavs@bu.edu (Bill Svitavsky)
Subject: Talent: Intuition
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This seems to be the time to trot out all the house rules and ideas for new
powers, so here's another one of mine:
INTUITION
This EGO-based talent is the ability to leap to a correct conclusion
without all the facts necessary to make a logical conclusion. It is similar
to the Skill Deduction, and should likewise be used sparingly. However,
this talent differs from deduction in both applicability and results. A
character may attempt an Intuition Roll to reach some understanding in the
absence of complete information. The conclusion he or she reaches, though,
may not answer the question the player had in mind. The conclusion will
also be less definite than the product of logical reasoning - a "hunch" -
and the Skill Roll should therefore generally be made by the GM. A failed
Intuition Roll usually means that the character has no strong feeling about
the situation, or it can mean an incorrect hunch.
Cost: 3 points for a 9+(EGO/5) base roll, +2 points per +1 to the roll.
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 01:21:20 EST
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< I first heard this one at GenCon this year. Before that, they were trying
to push a switch to Fuzion on us. >>
Hero was never trying to "push a switch" on you. If you perceived it that
way, it''s unfortunate. But you can hardly blame a publisher for promoting its
newest product.
<< 3. "We are not going to stop supporting 4th edition". >>
> This is true.
<< But could change at any time. Argh! >>
The fate of Hero System 4th Ed is as much in your hands as it is mine. If
you don't understand that after reaqding all of my postings to this list these
past few days, then I don't know what more I can say to convince you.
Mark @ GRG
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 22:43:14 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
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>Some recent discussion on the list brought up an aspect of the Aid power I
>had never considered. Can Aid be used to grant powers that the target
>doesn't have? For that matter can the other adjustment powers? Say an
>aborption to energy blast that gives the user an energy blast they don't
>normally have acess to.
I let players do that, but the effectiveness is halved, so your Aid to a
power the target does not have, or absorb to a power you do not have gives
you HALF the points you normally get on the dice... keeps abuse down as a
house rule, I strongly advise it for an official rule.
----------------------------------------------------------
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Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
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From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com>
Subject: RE: Ninjato
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 02:06:31 -0500
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>> I agree that the ninjato doesn't deserve a +1 STUN multiplier. The
typical ninjato likely doesn't deserve a +1 OCV bonus either, unlike a
high-quality katana or wakizashi forged with exquisite skill. <<
Michael Surbrook responds:
> When my group rewrote the weapons lists, we dumped all OCV bonuses for all
weapons, unless the weapon was very quick (like a rapier of jien) of hard to
block (like a flail). OTOH, the +1 OCV for a sword is more a question of
balance then how well the sword was made. If the sword is well balanced and
handles well, then it will be fairly easy to use, thus the +1 OCV. <
I'd place the katana and wakizashi in the category of quick and balanced
weapons, along with fast martial arts weapons like the jo stick and nunchaku,
and with swift European thrusting swords and daggers. The heavier no-daichi
would not deserve the bonus.
I believe how well a sword is made should affect its game stats. Let's go
back to the Dark Ages. The Celts were probably the first to use the process
of pattern-welding, overcoming the technical problem of forging good swords
when good iron was scarce. A pattern-welded blade could include both
good-quality and inferior iron, yet produce a high-quality, attractive
weapon. The best of these blades took a month or more to forge and were
valued as equal to 120 oxen or 15 slaves--not exactly mass-produced to equip
an entire army. Such swords became cherished family heirlooms, praised for
their power to cut through any armor of the time.
Then, around the 8th Century, Viking smiths made another breakthrough,
forging blades of homogeneous steel that equaled or surpassed pattern-welded
blades. These swords, sometimes called Ulfberht after a smith or family of
smiths in the Rhineland, became lighter and tougher, less blade-heavy, and
more sharply tapered, better able to pierce mail. These blades could be
wielded with greater dexterity and speed than other swords of comparable
length. So how well-made these swords were did affect how well they handled.
These variances in European sword quality are not unlike the distinction
between the samurai's revered katana and the ninja's utilitarian ninjato.
Quality pays, though you often have to pay through the nose for it. ("120
oxen . . . what's that in gold pieces?")
>> I like to give the quality swords favored by knights and swashbuckler the
+1 OCV. To balance the sword's advantage, I grant a +1 STUN multiplier to
heavy battle axes to better reflect the crushing power of such weapons in
addition to their cutting power. A +1 STUN mult I give to common hammers,
maces, and
flails, while the heaviest of such weapons receives a +2 STUN mult. So a
knight wearing heavy jousting armor capable of absorbing lots of BODY can
still get his bell rung by a two-handed flail. <<
> I would argue that European swords are pretty much the same quality across
the board for the most part. <
Again, quality differs markedly from place to place and from age to age,
depending on the technical skill of the smiths and on the grade and
properties of the raw materials available. This holds true for just about
any type of weapon or armor. In Medieval Europe, discriminating noblemen
looked to Bordeaux, Toulouse, Solingen, Toledo, or Passau for the finest
swords available. Milan and Innsbruck became famous for their suits of
armor, superior to most made in England. German iron-smelters had perhaps
discovered before the rest of Europe the advantage of using manganese to
harden steel, giving German armorers superior metal with which to work.
Also, it's more interesting to treat high-quality weapons and armor, even
non-enchanted ones, as individual items rather than generic examples
indistinguishable from all others of the same type.
> Anyway, axes should have the AP advantage, since they purpose is to chop
through armor. One gets the impression from some of the older Norse sagas
that the axe was a very sharp weapon with great cutting power, not crushing
power. <
A stout battleaxe is indeed a marvelously effective weapon, reputed to have
been able to lop-off mailed limbs left and right. The axes of the Franks and
Vikings weren't quite so impressive against plate armor, though, hence the
evolution of the two-handed pollaxe and halberd to defeat increasingly better
armor. Still, treating axes as AP attacks is a valid interpretation.
I've read that part of the efficacy of the axe was its percussive effect as
well as its cutting power. Where the heavy axe did not cleave through mail,
its mass enabled it to crush the flesh underneath. As a matter of personal
taste, I prefer to reserve the AP Advantage for the beaked war hammer and
other weapons with a pick-like fluke capable of punching square holes through
plate. It keeps those weapons unique in the armory. I wouldn't rule out
axes of quality as having AP potential, though.
> I would disagree with giving almost any weapon a +2 Stun Multiple. <
Maybe I just have a thing for big, smashing weapons. I'm also bored with
every warrior arming himself with a sword, forgetting that other weapons even
exist. Maces and flails aren't just for clerics anymore. Besides, the
percussive power of such weapons taking a toll on knights wearing even heavy
plate is attested to in several history books I've read.
> I would also like to point out that *no one* fought in 'jousting armor'.
Armor for tilting at the list was just that, sport armor for the joust. This
stuff was very thick (up to an 1" of overlapping plates) and rigidly locked
together. I doubt that hitting someone with a heavy flail would incapacitate
them as badly a you are picturing in your example.
Note: when you say 'heavy jousting armor' I presume you are referring to the
full suits of plate from the 16th and 17th century. Before that, the knight
wore his usual gear with a few add-ons. <
To be more precise, I'm not thinking of the specialized tilt armors
specifically designed to withstand a lance charge, but a more general form of
fully articulated armor suitable for the foot combat of the tourney as well
as the battlefield--say the finest of early- to mid-16th Century armor, with
"garnitures" or exchange pieces available that can be added to the war
harness when the knight jousts in a tourney. Though a not-so-common sight on
the 16th Century battlefield, being so expensive, it's what the Perk:
Well-Off knight of FH will likely wear. I would rate the very best of such
armor--not that heavily fluted, imitation-of-the-latest-fashion-in-clothes
parade armor nonsense--but the duke's ransom kind of armor where every inch
of surface is formed to provide an ideal glancing surface, as +10 rD.
Common sense dictates when any suit of armor's full defense doesn't apply,
naturally. The defense value should be reduced vs. most energy attacks, vs.
high-velocity firearms, and vs. a powerful crossbow bolt or longbow shaft
launched at close range. And even the best armor shouldn't count for much if
the knight falls off a cliff or gets nailed by a boulder hurled by a giant.
>> I have another suggestion for hand-and-a-half weapons. Provided the
character has the STR min to wield the weapon one-handed, if he chooses to
wield it with both hands, he gets a +1 Damage Class bonus when gripping it
two-handed--in a sense, the STR min for swinging it with two hands is reduced
by 5. <<
> But the STR min of using a hand-and-a-half weapon does go down if you use
it two handed, allowing one to usually get that extra DC in combat. Check
Fantasy Hero and the BBB. <
"Usually," but not always. The STR min for a 1.5-h weapon is reduced by only
-2 when used in two hands (Fantasy Hero, page 98). If a 13 STR character
wielding a hand-and-a-half weapon with a 13 STR min grips it with both hands,
the STR min drops to 11. No damage bonus. His STR would have to be as high
as 16 to do added damage with a two-fisted attack. I don't like that. So
long as a character is strong enough to wield the weapon one-handed, he
should have the potential to do additional damage two-handed, the official
rule be damned.
Len Carpenter
redlion@early.com
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 02:44:24 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: RE: Ninjato
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On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Len Carpenter wrote:
> > When my group rewrote the weapons lists, we dumped all OCV bonuses for all
> weapons, unless the weapon was very quick (like a rapier of jien) of hard to
> block (like a flail). OTOH, the +1 OCV for a sword is more a question of
> balance then how well the sword was made. If the sword is well balanced and
> handles well, then it will be fairly easy to use, thus the +1 OCV. <
>
> I'd place the katana and wakizashi in the category of quick and balanced
> weapons, along with fast martial arts weapons like the jo stick and nunchaku,
> and with swift European thrusting swords and daggers. The heavier no-daichi
> would not deserve the bonus.
I think this boils down to a matter of feel. We dumped the OCV bonus for
*all* but a select few weapons. It was felt that there wasn't all that
much difference between a well-balanced katana and a well-balanced
broadsword, so we dropped the OCV bonus for both. I don't think the jo
kept its +1 OCV either. I do know the no-dachi didn't get it (although it
did get a DC increase).
<stuff on swords snipped>
If one wanted to into slightly greater detail with swords and such in a
fantasy game, then adding or dropping the +1 OCV (or even a DC) would
allow one to represent this sort of forging.
Our attempt was to lower attacking OCVs a touch, drop STR mins into a
realistic relm and bring damage in-line. I would also like topoint out
that not *every* katana was a masterpiece, and even in our system one
could define the 'finely balanced family heirloom' with the +1 OCV, making
it stand out from the more mundane swords around it.
> > I would argue that European swords are pretty much the same quality across
> the board for the most part. <
>
> Again, quality differs markedly from place to place and from age to age,
> depending on the technical skill of the smiths and on the grade and
> properties of the raw materials available. This holds true for just about
> any type of weapon or armor. In Medieval Europe, discriminating noblemen
> looked to Bordeaux, Toulouse, Solingen, Toledo, or Passau for the finest
> swords available. Milan and Innsbruck became famous for their suits of
> armor, superior to most made in England. German iron-smelters had perhaps
> discovered before the rest of Europe the advantage of using manganese to
> harden steel, giving German armorers superior metal with which to work.
>
> Also, it's more interesting to treat high-quality weapons and armor, even
> non-enchanted ones, as individual items rather than generic examples
> indistinguishable from all others of the same type.
True. See my comments above through. The question become one of
playbility vs detail. If I' want to really get serious and in -depth into
such factors I could declare that German (or Italian) plate is +1 DEF,
while the same suit from (say...) Ireland is -1 DEF (from a base of 8).
One could tinker with the +1 OCV bonus (normal sword 1d6+1 HKA, high
quality - 1d6+1 with a +1 OCV, poorly forged sword? same damage, -1 OCV)
But when taken as a whole, the swords do blend together over all, it is
only when you look at very different swords (such as a cinqueda compared
to a broadsword, compared to a hand-and-a-half, compared to a claymore
that one really should worry about major differences.
> > Anyway, axes should have the AP advantage, since they purpose is to chop
> through armor. One gets the impression from some of the older Norse sagas
> that the axe was a very sharp weapon with great cutting power, not crushing
> power. <
>
> A stout battleaxe is indeed a marvelously effective weapon, reputed to have
> been able to lop-off mailed limbs left and right. The axes of the Franks and
> Vikings weren't quite so impressive against plate armor, though, hence the
> evolution of the two-handed pollaxe and halberd to defeat increasingly better
> armor. Still, treating axes as AP attacks is a valid interpretation.
I have my doubts as to the ability for any weapon, even a good axe to
'lop-off mailed limbs'. As to the difference between a Danish war axe and
a halberd? Probably the base damage value (and possibly a +1 Stun for the
halberd).
> I've read that part of the efficacy of the axe was its percussive effect as
> well as its cutting power. Where the heavy axe did not cleave through mail,
> its mass enabled it to crush the flesh underneath. As a matter of personal
> taste, I prefer to reserve the AP Advantage for the beaked war hammer and
> other weapons with a pick-like fluke capable of punching square holes through
> plate. It keeps those weapons unique in the armory. I wouldn't rule out
> axes of quality as having AP potential, though.
And crushing the flesh underneath means doing Body damage through the
armor - ie. AP attacks. We trated picks, war hammers and axes the same
way, since they all had the same end result, doing damage even through
thick armor.
> > I would disagree with giving almost any weapon a +2 Stun Multiple. <
>
> Maybe I just have a thing for big, smashing weapons. I'm also bored with
> every warrior arming himself with a sword, forgetting that other weapons even
> exist. Maces and flails aren't just for clerics anymore. Besides, the
> percussive power of such weapons taking a toll on knights wearing even heavy
> plate is attested to in several history books I've read.
Yeah, but with a +2 Stun Multiple, I think you're doing too much Stun too
quickly.
> > I would also like to point out that *no one* fought in 'jousting armor'.
> Armor for tilting at the list was just that, sport armor for the joust. This
> stuff was very thick (up to an 1" of overlapping plates) and rigidly locked
> together. I doubt that hitting someone with a heavy flail would incapacitate
> them as badly a you are picturing in your example.
>
> Note: when you say 'heavy jousting armor' I presume you are referring to the
> full suits of plate from the 16th and 17th century. Before that, the knight
> wore his usual gear with a few add-ons. <
>
> To be more precise, I'm not thinking of the specialized tilt armors
> specifically designed to withstand a lance charge, but a more general form of
> fully articulated armor suitable for the foot combat of the tourney as well
> as the battlefield--say the finest of early- to mid-16th Century armor, with
> "garnitures" or exchange pieces available that can be added to the war
> harness when the knight jousts in a tourney. Though a not-so-common sight on
> the 16th Century battlefield, being so expensive, it's what the Perk:
> Well-Off knight of FH will likely wear. I would rate the very best of such
> armor--not that heavily fluted, imitation-of-the-latest-fashion-in-clothes
> parade armor nonsense--but the duke's ransom kind of armor where every inch
> of surface is formed to provide an ideal glancing surface, as +10 rD.
Okay, I see. I had a bit of a go-around with some one a while back about
the use of jousting and 'bullet proof' armor. I would like to point out,
however, that Maxamillian plate is considered some of the finest armor
ever made, and it is 'heavily fluted', although the fluting has a purpose,
unlike some suits I have seen (which, as you say, were ment for parades).
Ever seen the suit made to look like a Landskinecht's slashed-and-puffed
dress?
> Common sense dictates when any suit of armor's full defense doesn't apply,
> naturally. The defense value should be reduced vs. most energy attacks, vs.
> high-velocity firearms, and vs. a powerful crossbow bolt or longbow shaft
> launched at close range. And even the best armor shouldn't count for much if
> the knight falls off a cliff or gets nailed by a boulder hurled by a giant.
There are limitations for that. Ninja Hero and UMA make mention of
reduced vs guns. In a FH game where you aren't paying for the armor, the
GM should make a ruling about when the armor doesn't provided full DEF
> >> I have another suggestion for hand-and-a-half weapons. Provided the
> character has the STR min to wield the weapon one-handed, if he chooses to
> wield it with both hands, he gets a +1 Damage Class bonus when gripping it
> two-handed--in a sense, the STR min for swinging it with two hands is reduced
> by 5. <<
>
> > But the STR min of using a hand-and-a-half weapon does go down if you use
> it two handed, allowing one to usually get that extra DC in combat. Check
> Fantasy Hero and the BBB. <
>
> "Usually," but not always. The STR min for a 1.5-h weapon is reduced by only
> -2 when used in two hands (Fantasy Hero, page 98). If a 13 STR character
> wielding a hand-and-a-half weapon with a 13 STR min grips it with both hands,
> the STR min drops to 11. No damage bonus. His STR would have to be as high
> as 16 to do added damage with a two-fisted attack. I don't like that. So
> long as a character is strong enough to wield the weapon one-handed, he
> should have the potential to do additional damage two-handed, the official
> rule be damned.
Hmmm... I think we dropped the STR by 3 for two-handed use.
We also dropped the STR min for all weapons, a katana was 10/7 I think,
the ninja-to was 11/8 (1 handed/2 handed).
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 02:55:16 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 5th Edition concluded
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> Unfortunately, for the same 5 points per die, I could buy STR, which
> would add the same amount of damage _and_ lift _and_ grabs _and_ adds
> to figured characteristics.
But then you'd have to justify it to me, the GM. And if you've
got Mr. Normal MA sitting there, you're not gonna convince me that you
need 35 or 40 STR. 20 STR and 4 dice of HA? No problem.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 02:02:13 -0700
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
Subject: Re: How do I buy these abilites??
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Filksinger wrote:
> A target, on Earth, traveling at lightspeed, would, if limited to the
> surface of the Earth, reach the far side of the Earth in less than
> 1/7th of a second. Effectively instantaneous, for our purposes.
> Attacked is pretty much out of the question, unless you were being
> paced. (I will not bother calculating the DCV of an object traveling
> at lightspeed. I would not allow any normal attack, even with a roll
> of three, hit _that_.)
>
> As for the Affects Desolid defenses, if you really consider those a
> significant difference, then limit the Teleportation. If you don't
> think that it is worth even a -1/4, then it isn't a significant
> difference.
>
> Filksinger
I've only been half hearteadly following this discussion, so if this has
been mentioned I apologize in advance.
The way our group has handeled huge distant teleports has been to buy it
as Extra Dim Movement, listing earth as the dimension. This allows
precision for target, but not exact precision (can miss by a few blocks
ect). For perfect precision we allow the character to buy permenant and
floating locations just like in t-port. It isn't exactly legal, but we
find it a more elegant kludge than the FTL or the hugely limited normal
t-port.
Just the proverbial .02
--
-Mhoram
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your
two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright
Comments: Authenticated sender is <b1tlbx98@pop1.sympatico.ca>
From: "Vance Scott" <b1tlbx98@pop1.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 07:54:18 -500
Subject: Re: Regenerating limbs
Reply-to: vances@sympatico.ca
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> Do characters with regeneration regenerate limbs? If they
> can, how much would they need to heal to regenerate, lets say, an
> arm?
Yes. It takes as long as it takes to recover the body damage disabled
your character. Otherwise Regeneration isn't Regeneration, but
excelerated healing which is different.
Vance Scott
Vanquisher of all foes
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 07:33:50 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
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At 01:21 AM 12/17/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
> << I first heard this one at GenCon this year. Before that, they were
> trying to push a switch to Fuzion on us. >>
>
> Hero was never trying to "push a switch" on you. If you perceived it that
> way, it''s unfortunate. But you can hardly blame a publisher for promoting
> its newest product.
It looks screwy when the same guy is saying on one hand that die-hard
Champions players (like those of us on this list) are "simply not the target
audience" for Fuzion, and on the other hand continually making a hard sell
for the Fuzion game on this list. I think you can hardly blame players for
feeling like they were being pushed by said publisher.
==
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 07:42:29 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 06:18 PM 12/17/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>On 17 Dec 1997, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
>> MS> What a minute, my copy of the BBB and the HSR says *nothing* about not
>> MS> being able to increase the number of points a character has.
>>
>> Its in there, tucked away inside the writeup of Transformation Attack.
>
>I just double checked, nothing. Rat, why don't you post the exact
>sentence and page number so I can find it.
Uh, we've been through this before. Rat would need to post the exact
sentence, page number, and edition number, since this just isn't in 4th
Edition HERO. He's thinking of 2nd or 3rd edition.
--
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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 97 14:00:05 GMT
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Stephen McGinness)
Subject: Re: My BBB's falling apart!
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At 03:05 PM 16/12/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< What is your mailing address (or the address you would like the books sent
>to)? >>
>
> Gold Rush Games
> 9529 Big Timber Drive
> Elk Grove, CA 95758
>
> Note that this is NOT the address for general correspondence. KJeep our PO
>box address in your files. ;)
>
><< How do you want the $3 (personal check, money order, cash)? >>
>
> Check, money order, or credit card (Visa/MC)
>
><< Asking as one of the few who do not already own HeroMaker, can I include
>some extra money for a copy of the software? >>
>
> No. But you can send $25 to Hero Games for a copy of it. ;) We're all out.
>
><< Finally, about long do you think it'll take for delivery? 6-8 weeks? >>
>
> The turnaround should be faster, but we're required by FTC regulations to
>advicse you that it may take 4-6 weeks for delivery.
>
> Mark @ GRG
>
As may be expected, this doesn't really help us British people!! :-) You
never really forgave us for kicking you did you??
What might the expected price, turnaround etc be for bad BBB's over here in
the UK?? We suffered too you know! :-)
Stephen McGinness
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 08:03:14 -0600
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net
Organization: Redbow Antiques
Subject: Re: Fifth Edition - Killing Attacks
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> >>>>> "bf" == bobby farris <redbf@ldd.net> writes:
>
> bf> Maybe I don't understand you. 1d6k=15 points and 1d6 normal=5 > bf> pt's so Killing does cost more than normal.
> Watch carefully, and remember that killing attacks require more expensive
> defenses:
>
> 3D6 N: min = 0B/3S, avg = 3B/10.5S, max = 6B/18S
> 1D6 K: min = 1B/1S, avg = 3.5B/8.75S, max = 6B/30S
>
> In the middle, KAs are about the same as normal attacks: slightly more
> Body, slightly less Stun. As one moves towards the max end, the "Stun
> Lotto" takes a significant upwards swing.
>
> What I would like to see, but I am not sure how to go about pricing >it, is to use the "normal" means of reading damage. To wit, for 3DCs >of killing attack, roll 3D6 and count the "Body" and Stun as if it were >a normal attack. Then apply resistant defenses only against the >damage. Maybe worth a +1/4 advantage on the power.
>
Agreed. I like your idea although I don't know how much the advantage
should be. Of course, I think this would require major 4th edition
character changes.
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 97 14:04:43 GMT
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Stephen McGinness)
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
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At 05:44 PM 16/12/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< And the list stopped, and all was hushed
>where moments before there had been such a rush
>we all realized again that our chances were zero>>
>
> <LOL> Great poem! Btw, I never, ever, ever said that there wouldn't be one.
>I'm just not able to discuss it right now.
>
> Mark @ GRG
>
MADE YOU LOOK!! MADE YOU LOOK!!!
He discussed it! Didn't he?? He said that he said that there wouldn't be
one!! That's discussing it in my book!!!
(Sorry, was away for a long weekend, I've been readiong the whole thing for
the past 5 hours when I should have been working!!)
Stephen
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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 06:11:54 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
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At 01:29 PM 12/16/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> >> - Force Field and Force Wall should have Flash Defense, Mental
Defense,
>> >> and Power Defense methods built right in.
>> >
>> > Sure. See USM for examples, but basically put that right into the
>> >core rules.
>>
>> I don't have USM, and if I had I wouldn't have listed this. Part of my
>> main recommendation is to include most or all of the rules from Ultimate
>> books, Dark Champs books, and Atlantis, with a few from the HSAs.
>
> OK, that's good. And the USM rules are just pretty
>straightforward addition of the other defenses. The main consideration is
>what does and does not take down the wall. Take a wall that just supplies
>power def -- what does an energy EB do?
To my mind, it would either shatter it or go right through, depending on
whether it was Transparent to Energy or not.
Try this rule on for size, regarding FW:
By default, a Force Wall must be affected by at least two types of
attacks. If it has more than one type of defense, then it is affected by
all of those types of attacks. At least one type must be either physical
or energy. If the Force Wall has no PD or ED, then it must take the
Transparent Advantage for one of them (the other is filled in my the type
of defense that the Wall does have).
>> Officially, I think it takes a full Phase to change clothes. I don't
>> like this; ask any SNL cast member how long it takes for a costume change
>> with help from two people. I put it here as 5 minutes.
>
> Depends on what is being worn, but 20 seconds isn't unreasonably
>fast. Of course, your finishing the various buttenings and such while
>heading back to the stage.
With help, yes. I've tried fast-dressing, and my record is 3 minutes
(and that was before my current physical problems started setting in). I'd
call it 5 for a good fit on the time Chart.
>> > Like I pointed out, work in something like Weapon Familiarities.
>>
>> That's basically how I'm doing it here (in the more detailed write-up I
>> have on disk somewhere), except that I refer to them as "discrete
elements."
>
> So, something like: Immune to Cold - 2pts; Immune to Heat; 2pts.
>Both for 3 pts?
Exactly. And Immune to Vacuum - 2 pts; Immune to Pressure - 2 pts; both
for 3 pts. :-]
>> >Also, add a LS: Does not die for something like 10 pts. A somewhat major
>> >ability with almost no combat importance. This is not something that
>> >should cost 20, 30, 40, or more points, as some of the list's writeups
>> >have done.
>>
>> I'm not sure that even 10 points is too expensive.
>
> Do you mean that 10 pts is too expensive? Perhaps, but this would
>serve to have very reckless characters. "I can't die, so I'm gonna
>suicide bomb the bad guys." I actually had a character of mine do this,
>and he only had Regen.
What I was meaning was that 10 points *may* be to expensive. I'm not
sure yet.
> Hmmmm. Maybe 10 pts for having common ways to die, 15 for an
>uncommon way to die, 20 for no way to die?
I like that one.
>> > Nope. This is too easily abusable. Keep it as it is in 4th ed.
>>
>> You know how much of an Energy Blast I could get in a campaign with a 60
>> Active Point limit that would cut your defenses to one-eighth? 3 1/2d6.
>> Or a 1d6 Killing Attack. Not real threatening, and only occasionally
useful.
>
> Not that bad, as you point out. Also would rarely be seen, I'd
>think.
Definitely. But like I say, *occasionally* useful.
>> > We also need a way to increase the increased radius for expl at a
>> >faster rate. As it is, a AE is quickly more effective.
>>
>> Agreed. If someone could do the math on how AE's +1/4 Advantage to a
>> +3/4 Explosion compares to equivalent Advantage levels of AE, I'd be very
>> interested.
>
> I'm not exactly sure what you're asking for here.
You were pointing out how AE becomes quickly more effective with its 2X
radius per +1/4 Advantage vs Explosions +1" radius per +1/4 Advantage.
Some time ago, someone pointed out that Explosions with 2X radius per +1/4
eventually becomes much more effective than AE at the same level. I was
curious to see if one of the list's resident number-crunchers could do the
numbers to see if adding +1/4 to the cost of Explosion (and 2X radius per
+1/4) would make it more equitable.
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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 06:13:47 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
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At 03:31 PM 12/16/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>>>> - Explosion should be +3/4 so it doesn't cost the same as AE:
>One Hex.
>>>
>>>The increased precision given by AE: One Hex balances the somewhat-
>>>increased damage of Explosion. Leave them the same.
>>
>> What increased precision? Both are against DCV 3.
>
>The abillity to hit a high DCV character with a 10d6 EB, without
>killing the bystanders in the next hex.
Like I say, I have a problem with charging points for what a Power
*doesn't* do, Personal Immunity excepted.
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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 06:16:38 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
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At 10:43 PM 12/16/97 -0800, Christopher Taylor wrote:
>>Some recent discussion on the list brought up an aspect of the Aid power I
>>had never considered. Can Aid be used to grant powers that the target
>>doesn't have? For that matter can the other adjustment powers? Say an
>>aborption to energy blast that gives the user an energy blast they don't
>>normally have acess to.
>
>I let players do that, but the effectiveness is halved, so your Aid to a
>power the target does not have, or absorb to a power you do not have gives
>you HALF the points you normally get on the dice... keeps abuse down as a
>house rule, I strongly advise it for an official rule.
I don't remember if I've addressed this or not, but I do like this rule.
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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 08:16:52 -0600
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net
Organization: Redbow Antiques
Subject: Future of Hero System
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I am not in any official position so what follows is purely IMO.
I have noticed quite a few people say that they don't know what is
coming out for Hero system and they wonder if Hero is dead. It is not.
I have personally bought several of the Hero Plus items and have been
very impressed with them. $20 to get a 290+ book is not bad by any
standards. I have seen several people write that they are writing Hero
plus books(if I knew what to write I would try too), and I an certain
that me and my friends will continue to write more.
I have seen that Gold Rush Games is publishing several books and I got
a sneak preview of the first two chapters of San Angelo City of Heroes
and I loved it. I can't wait till it comes out.
That said I don't think Hero Games wants to see Hero system die. I
think they are trying to publish the games the best way possible and
still maintain a good profit. (It is easier to do Hero Plus then to
print a book.)
The saddest part of it all is that I don't think that they have
published that enough. I think most people fill the game is dead.
I think as long as we fans stick by the system, Hero system will
survive wether or not Hero games wants it to.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 06:29:56 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: is anybody there???
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At 03:49 PM 12/16/97 -0500, alex k mist wrote:
>
>is the list still up, haven't gotten a thing in 4 days?
Be thankful. My download this morning was 158 messages! (That includes
a couple of private posts, and about 20 on another list.)
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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 06:37:38 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
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At 12:42 PM 12/16/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>> HERO Plus sucks (the ONLY new item I've seen is Ultimate Super Mage,
>> and I'd rather convert to GURPS Supers than use that). You didn't
>> even try to produce a Star HERO 4th ed. book, even though the interest
>> was there, and the existing Fantasy HERO stuff doesn't work at all
>> with my 600 pt. character high fantasy game (I'd never seen Fantasy
>> HERO before, so I just converted my AD&D game over to Champions...).
>
>And there is a really nice Star Hero 2nd Edition on the net that has a lot
>of nice stuff in it. It's a shame Hero didn't finish fleshing the book
>out.
Quite so. I've even taken a few rules from it for TUSV (with the
authors' permission, of course).
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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 06:45:19 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
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At 01:27 PM 12/16/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< 1. "We don't expect players happy with Champions to switch to Fuzion." >>
>
> This is true.
>
><< 2. "We don't plan on doing a 5th edition at this time". >>
>
> That was true.
>
><< 3. "We are not going to stop supporting 4th edition". >>
>
> This is true.
>
><< 4. "Any future CHAMPIONS material will be released through HERO PLUS".>>
>
> This is not true, any more. Future Champions products will also be coming
>from GRG. What the heck do you think I've been promoting here this lpast week
>or so? :D
Sorry, Mark. When I said that these were all essentially true, I was
qualifying the last to mean just Hero Games' *own* Champions material.
PS: You know the difference between TSR and a tyrannosaurus rex? One is
an unstoppable juggernaut that devours everything in its path and is feared
by all, and the other is an extinct animal.
(Dated joke, I know, but...)
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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 06:46:17 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
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At 01:27 PM 12/16/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< Something I think you *can* do, however, is take notes on what folks on
>the list want and like, and pass the information on to Steve, Bruce, et al.>>
>
> "People, I am here to tell you that there are no such things as flying
>saucers, and we definitely do not have one in the New Mexico desert."
And I trust you got this from the Air Force, Division Six?
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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 06:50:30 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
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At 05:44 PM 12/16/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< And the list stopped, and all was hushed
>where moments before there had been such a rush
>we all realized again that our chances were zero>>
>
> <LOL> Great poem! Btw, I never, ever, ever said that there wouldn't be one.
>I'm just not able to discuss it right now.
Well, it's just too bad you're on AOL, or you could put your mantra
abouth Fifth Edition Hero into a sig file... ;-]
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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 06:51:51 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Odd Combat
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At 02:54 PM 12/16/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>> A combination of this discussion and a scene early in "Blind Fury"
>> brings this idea to mind:
>> How about a character who beats up the bad guys... by *accident*? He
>> just turns and swings a arm, and... POW!
>> Probably Martial Arts with No Conscious Control?
>
>Depends. Is the aim of the character that he makes it look like an
>accident, or he just gets lucky?
>
>If the former, I'd suggest a combination of martial maneuvers and skill
>levels. The latter should get a bunch of skill levels with a limitation.
I'm taking the scene in question and chaning it around a little. The
aim of the character really is to understand what's going on. He just
beats up the bad guys without actually meaning to.
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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 07:57:39 -0700
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
Subject: Re: Fifth Edition - Killing Attacks
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bobby farris wrote:
>
> Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> > What I would like to see, but I am not sure how to go about pricing >it, is to use the "normal" means of reading damage. To wit, for 3DCs >of killing attack, roll 3D6 and count the "Body" and Stun as if it were >a normal attack. Then apply resistant defenses only against the >damage. Maybe worth a +1/4 advantage on the power.
> >
>
> Agreed. I like your idea although I don't know how much the advantage
> should be. Of course, I think this would require major 4th edition
> character changes.
We always used +1/2 for that. Just like defences.
We arrived at that number through some rather unusual number crunching.
Taking the advantages for doing stun out of the Transform Description in
Champs III (or II- I don't recall), wherein a stun as normal attack is a
+1/2, and a d6-1 is a +1. We figured moving the body done from an attack
from normal to the KAs do it is a +1.The the resulting structure would
be +1 for moving the body to Killing style, +1/2 to move the stun from
normal to a d6-1 stun mult, left a +1/2 to make it resistant (if you are
trying to build a 'normal' KA from a normal attack).
All of this from memory (3rd Edition memory at that) so those numbers
may not be exact, but that was the logic.
Don't know if anyone cares but....
--
-Mhoram
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your
two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright
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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 07:02:19 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Slipperiness
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At 06:08 PM 12/17/97 -0800, Rick Holding wrote:
>-- Bob Greenwade wrote:
><<Snipped>>
>>
>> I don't mind reducing the amount of BODY required to affect the
>> Trasnform, but as much as 16 seems high, 2 seems awfully low.
>> AE: Hex is the minimum requirement. Any greater AE, such as AE: Line,
>> merely affects each hex separately. In fact, the sample vehicle with a
>> Slick uses AE: Line to leave the Slick in its path (though it's an ice path
>> -- this is a "nuclear Zamboni," inspired somewhat by Mr. Freeze's car in
>> "Batman & Robin").
>
> I know. When I put the number in, I knew it was somewhat low. Try using
>the wall body table on page 178 in the BBB. It gives man size ratings for
>various thicknesses of materials. Man size could be roughly construed as
hex
>size but if in doubt, double it.
OK, so if we take the row for "Stone" as a pattern and apply -2 BODY for
every 1/2X thickness, and apply the Transform only to the top 125mm, that's
8 BODY. Does that work for everyone here?
>> That's because it doesn't affect travel speed; it affects the ability to
>> accelerate and decelerate. Go out and run across a frozen pond next July,
>> Rick, and you'll see what I mean. (Assuming you live far enough south, of
>> course.)
>
> Certainly it has a major effect of acceleration (and decelleration). It
>just seems to me that your top speed is also lower. Perhaps its the image
I have
>of the scene in Lethal Weapon 3 with Riggs running across the ice rink.
He was
>running like hell, but was certainly not at his top speed.
Probably because he didn't want to accelerate too far...
> Living in Canberra puts me about 1 1/2 hours from the Snowy Mountains.
>But I haven't yet experienced walking or running on a frozen pond.
We don't get the icy sidewalks much here in Oregon's Willamette Valley,
but enough to know what it's like to slip and fall on your butt. Everyone
I know (for whom the topic has come up) and had it happen.
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From: Fvigil <Fvigil@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:22:45 EST
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editi
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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> > > Raising STR's cost is really close to the top of the priority queue of
> > > things to be changed in 5th Edition, IMO.
> >
> > I think it would also be at the top of the list of new rules ignored if
> > they did change the cost;)
>
> I agree... Str is not broken. If there must be something fixed, make it
HA.
I think that Strength _is_ broken, but past discussions have convinced me
that fixing it it is not worth the turmoil that it would cause (like
correcting 99% of the existing characters.)
Fernando
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:44:59 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: How do I buy these abilites??
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>>I agree this is pretty questionable, for the reasons you give. At the
>risk
>>of being pedantic, though, I'd disagree that Desolid FTL _exactly_
>>duplicates Teleportation; different things (like Affects Desolid
>defenses)
>>stop it. This leaves a mechanism for being stopped or attacked along
>the
>>way, perhaps even by someone moving at the same speed, while Teleport
>has
>>no real capacity for that. (Of course, the GM could always fudge
>something
>>for those limited Teleports.)
>
>
>A target, on Earth, traveling at lightspeed, would, if limited to the
>surface of the Earth, reach the far side of the Earth in less than
>1/7th of a second. Effectively instantaneous, for our purposes.
>Attacked is pretty much out of the question, unless you were being
>paced. (I will not bother calculating the DCV of an object traveling
>at lightspeed. I would not allow any normal attack, even with a roll
>of three, hit _that_.)
>
[snip]
Ah, but some of my favorite high-speed superhero battles involve near
light-speed characters being paced. Examples: Superman vs. Swamp Thing in
ST #79, or Flash (Barry Allen) vs. the Reverse Flash in Flash #322-324. It
bothers me to think of having to do such a battle, calculating CV's and
applying maneuvers, in mid-"Teleport."
(Of course, I've mentioned that I'd build the Swamp Thing as a Spirit in
another thread, but it was one of the first examples that came to mind for
FTL atmospheric battles.)
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editio
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 97 10:46:54 -0500
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From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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>You mean the one done by George Perez? With Seeker jumping to attack Dr.
>Destroyer (presumably without effect and a lot of pain on Seeker's side)?
>Why does it need to be changed?
Quite simply, because Seeker's very existance is a like unto a pimple on
the face of the prom queen. He should have died a horrible, bloody death
years ago.
Bring back Marksman and/or Flare.
Let Seeker Die Like a Dingo
| David A. Fair
Think Different | SDS International
| dfair@sdslink.com
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:47:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: RE: Secret to Hero
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>-- I had a flick through the BBB and couldn't find it stated (Thats not
>to say its not in there) but it used to be 1 turn was needed to change
>into costume. (Well, thats what I remember, anyhow)
It's on p. 141 of the 1st printing BBB in the Action Phase Table, and it's
actually listed as 1 Phase to change clothes. I always considered this an
overgenerously short estimate - with my SPD 2 it takes me longer than 6
seconds to change clothes, and it probably would even if I were just
removing them to reveal a costume underneath. (I refuse to test this.)
Nevertheless, I rarely make a costume change a big deal in a superhero
battle, since it's generally so easy in the comics.
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:48:22 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Future of Hero System
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> I have noticed quite a few people say that they don't know what
is
>coming out for Hero system and they wonder if Hero is dead. It is not.
I agree the future looks fairly bright for Hero products. But even if Hero
& GRG closed up shop tomorrow, I wouldn't consider the game dead. I
haven't bought a Hero system product in months, but I've got a game this
weekend. Chess seems to be doing just fine without supplements. (OK, I
know there are some chess-based games, but you get my point.)
At this point in my life, I'm into gaming enough that I'll never give it
up completely, but out of it enough that I'm not likely to want to learn a
lot of new systems. Besides, I've never seen another system I like as much
as Hero. And the beauty of Hero is that it lets me do just about anything
I'll ever want to do in an RPG. So I expect I'll be using the Hero System,
regardless of support, for decades to come.
Subject: Batman & Robin
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 97 11:06:15 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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I have never been a reader of most DC Comics, but I have begun reading
some of the compilation books of Batman (Prodigal & Death of Robin, most
notably). I find the Batman to be one of the most intriguing types of
super-heros.
That said, could someone explain the reason for Dick Grayson leaving the
Batman for me? And what is the Origin of the current Robin?
Thanks for your help, It's hard finding answers to old issue questions
like this...
| David A. Fair
Think Different | SDS International
| dfair@sdslink.com
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:28:25 -0500
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org>
Subject: TUSV: Slipperiness
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> OK, so if we take the row for "Stone" as a pattern and apply -2 BODY for
> every 1/2X thickness, and apply the Transform only to the top 125mm, that's
> 8 BODY. Does that work for everyone here?
I have to say it seems odd basing the power on something like this (which
shouldn't really have much of an effect on how the power works).
Geoff Speare
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:35:07 -0700
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
Subject: Re: Odd Combat
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> At 02:54 PM 12/16/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> >On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> >
> >> A combination of this discussion and a scene early in "Blind Fury"
> >> brings this idea to mind:
> >> How about a character who beats up the bad guys... by *accident*? He
> >> just turns and swings a arm, and... POW!
> >> Probably Martial Arts with No Conscious Control?
>
> I'm taking the scene in question and chaning it around a little. The
> aim of the character really is to understand what's going on. He just
> beats up the bad guys without actually meaning to.
The only scene I can think that this would describe would be the diner
scene with the toughs and the salsa. I recieved the impression that he
knew exactly what he was doing, and just made it look as if he were
bumbling around.
-Mhoram
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your
two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:38:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Odd Combat
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On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> I'm taking the scene in question and chaning it around a little. The
> aim of the character really is to understand what's going on. He just
> beats up the bad guys without actually meaning to.
Is this supposed to happen in every fight?
If so, this sounds like several skill levels and maybe a die or two of HA.
There should be a limitation on the skill levles to reflect that the
player probably can't really decide where to put them (the GM does based
on plot and conception), the FX is that the character get the 'lucky'
punch in, or just happends to dodge at the right time, or what ever. A
few dice of luck would help as well.
Martial Arts NCC, is way to wonkey for me, since it means the player could
only fight when the GM felt like it and that would get really frustrating.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:41:34 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
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On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> At 01:27 PM 12/16/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
> ><< Something I think you *can* do, however, is take notes on what folks on
> >the list want and like, and pass the information on to Steve, Bruce, et al.>>
> >
> > "People, I am here to tell you that there are no such things as flying
> >saucers, and we definitely do not have one in the New Mexico desert."
>
> And I trust you got this from the Air Force, Division Six?
Nope, Internal Security, Section Nine.
Of course that line reminds me of the old Monty Python gag (it went
something like this):
"There have never been any cases of cannibalism in the British Navy, and
those cases that did occur happend a long time ago... mostly."
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:01:17 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Slipperiness
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At 11:28 AM 12/17/97 -0500, Geoffrey Speare wrote:
>> OK, so if we take the row for "Stone" as a pattern and apply -2 BODY for
>> every 1/2X thickness, and apply the Transform only to the top 125mm, that's
>> 8 BODY. Does that work for everyone here?
>
>I have to say it seems odd basing the power on something like this (which
>shouldn't really have much of an effect on how the power works).
How much BODY is needed for the Transform (how cold the beam has to be
to freeze the ground, or how much oil has to be spilled to make it
slippery, or whatever) can make quite a difference. It's a lot easier to
do this with 8 BODY than with 16.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:01:44 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
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> PS: You know the difference between TSR and a tyrannosaurus rex? One is
> an unstoppable juggernaut that devours everything in its path and is feared
> by all, and the other is an extinct animal.
> (Dated joke, I know, but...)
Um. Which is which?
-Tim Gilberg
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:10:32 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Odd Combat
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At 09:35 AM 12/17/97 -0700, Curtis Gibson wrote:
>> >> A combination of this discussion and a scene early in "Blind Fury"
>> >> brings this idea to mind:
>> >> How about a character who beats up the bad guys... by *accident*? He
>> >> just turns and swings a arm, and... POW!
>> >> Probably Martial Arts with No Conscious Control?
>>
>> I'm taking the scene in question and chaning it around a little. The
>> aim of the character really is to understand what's going on. He just
>> beats up the bad guys without actually meaning to.
>
>The only scene I can think that this would describe would be the diner
>scene with the toughs and the salsa. I recieved the impression that he
>knew exactly what he was doing, and just made it look as if he were
>bumbling around.
Precisely. My thought is, what if someone were *actually* like that?
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:12:38 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Odd Combat
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 11:38 AM 12/17/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>> I'm taking the scene in question and chaning it around a little. The
>> aim of the character really is to understand what's going on. He just
>> beats up the bad guys without actually meaning to.
>
>Is this supposed to happen in every fight?
>
>If so, this sounds like several skill levels and maybe a die or two of HA.
>There should be a limitation on the skill levles to reflect that the
>player probably can't really decide where to put them (the GM does based
>on plot and conception), the FX is that the character get the 'lucky'
>punch in, or just happends to dodge at the right time, or what ever. A
>few dice of luck would help as well.
>
>Martial Arts NCC, is way to wonkey for me, since it means the player could
>only fight when the GM felt like it and that would get really frustrating.
True.
Maybe just a -1 Limitation to represent the fact that it always
activates when there's a fight on, and the character has no direct control
over what happens? (It *is* an accident, after all.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:12:38 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Odd Combat
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 11:38 AM 12/17/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>> I'm taking the scene in question and chaning it around a little. The
>> aim of the character really is to understand what's going on. He just
>> beats up the bad guys without actually meaning to.
>
>Is this supposed to happen in every fight?
>
>If so, this sounds like several skill levels and maybe a die or two of HA.
>There should be a limitation on the skill levles to reflect that the
>player probably can't really decide where to put them (the GM does based
>on plot and conception), the FX is that the character get the 'lucky'
>punch in, or just happends to dodge at the right time, or what ever. A
>few dice of luck would help as well.
>
>Martial Arts NCC, is way to wonkey for me, since it means the player could
>only fight when the GM felt like it and that would get really frustrating.
True.
Maybe just a -1 Limitation to represent the fact that it always
activates when there's a fight on, and the character has no direct control
over what happens? (It *is* an accident, after all.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
From: "Marc Seebass" <kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:20:02 -0600
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-----Original Message-----
From: Tim R. Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Wednesday, December 17, 1997 11:10 AM
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
>
>
>> PS: You know the difference between TSR and a tyrannosaurus rex? One
is
>> an unstoppable juggernaut that devours everything in its path and is
feared
>> by all, and the other is an extinct animal.
>> (Dated joke, I know, but...)
>
Tell that to Wizards of the Coast
> Um. Which is which?
>
>
> -Tim Gilberg
>
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:21:50 EST
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< He discussed it! Didn't he?? He said that he said that there wouldn't be
one!! That's discussing it in my book!!!>>
:.:.:.gggrrrruummmble.:.:.:
Mark @ GRG
From: "James Jandebeur" <waveking@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:36:21 -0800
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>>
>>
>>> PS: You know the difference between TSR and a tyrannosaurus rex? One
>is
>>> an unstoppable juggernaut that devours everything in its path and is
>feared
>>> by all, and the other is an extinct animal.
>>> (Dated joke, I know, but...)
>>
>Tell that to Wizards of the Coast
That's why he said "Dated", you know.
JAJ
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:37:35 EST
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< And I trust you got this from the Air Force, Division Six?>>
I can neither confirm nor deny the existence of an organization within the
United States Air Force known as "Division Six."
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:39:09 EST
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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Rats! I lost that poem someone sent. Could you please resend it to me via
private e-mail? Thanks!
Mark @ GRG
Comments: Authenticated sender is <sti@pop3.hip.cam.org>
From: "Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG>
Organization: Stirling Westrup Consulting
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:39:46 +0000
Subject: Re: Needed: Mentalist Inspiration
Priority: normal
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So Sayeth Tim R. Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu&>
>
> > So, I
> > want some unconventional suggestions for mentalism powers to give me some
> > inspiration. The concepts I've come up with so far (I do concepts first, build
> > system after) are:
>
> To start, you really need to pick up The Ultimate Mentalist. Hero
> has it available from their Web Site in Hero Plus electronic format.
Sigh. I can't afford to buy any new RPG books for a while. My hobbie budget is
already WAY over budget. I *LIKE* the idea of the electronic books, but I would
have to be able to print the .PDF s to get any advantage. (The stupid thing is
that I actually have an HP laser printer with duplex, it just doesn't have
enough ram to handle typical postscript illustrations, and I'm over budget on
computer stuff too. Must be that time of year.)
> > Mental Invisibility.
> > She projects an aura that affects peoples minds and convinces them that she
> > isn't there. It would be probably be bought as some form of Images
> > (Static Image of empty space) aftecting all but mental senses (mentalists can
> > 'see' what she's doing) Probably has some sort of limitation like 'Points of
> > Mental Def counter negative perception modifiers' or something like that. She
> > would likely have extra levels of DCV linked to the Mental Invisibility. She
> > might even have a multipower in which she can tune her aura to project
> > other affects, like heightened beauty or impressiveness or even some sort of
> > 'Boy am I scarey' field.
>
> This is better done with Invisibility to whichever senses desired
> with a limitation like, "Not effective on those with 5+ (or 10+ or
> whatever) points of mental def; -1/2." The other's might be best in a MP of
> different effects, like an Aid to PRE or COM."
But I don't actually want to be invisible. I want to be hard-to-see. I wanted
something with a gradual success/failure curve, with different amounts
of effect on different viewers, not all or nothing. There are a few places in
the Hero system that I think a new limitation for gradual decay of effects
would be nice. Something like the old limitation on Entangle that it slowly
faded away. That way one could buy a continuing charge area effect attack that
slowly lost 1 DC per unit time.
> > Mental Transform
> > I am assuming that a Transform vs Mental Def is a +0 (since AVLD doesn't
> > distinguish between them.) Anyway, she would have a (minor?) transform to
> > modify someone's memories (possibly requiring a sufficient read-minds roll).
> > Ideally the effect would require rolling double the victims EGO rather than
> > BODY, but that isn't essential.
>
> This is covered completely in TUM, and it does allow going against
> Mental Def at +0. (Or a lim in an high-mentalist game). It also works
> against EGO instead of BODY, if you're interested in more, e-mail me and
> I'll scare up some quotes.
Good enough for me. The game I'm gonna be in just wants reasonable
justification for new ways of doing things. If I say its been published like
that, its probably good enough.
> > Skill Drain
> > This might also have to be bought as a transform, but I am thinking of a
> > mental power that interferes with and makes someone forget how to use a
> > particular skill/maneuver for a time.
>
> Drains bought down the time chart would work, but would be way too
> effective and cheap. I'd go with a mental transform, like above.
Yeah. I'm generally not an advocate of "The most expensive way of doing
something is best", since I can always think of a worse way of buying any given
power, but I think this would be kinda cheap.
> I've always been partial to Empaths. In a recent campaign, I
> wouldn't allow a normal Telepath (too easy to destroy mysteries) but did
> allow an empath. Powers like Read Emotions, Control Emotions, Sense Aura,
> Healing with Feedback, Emotional Overload, etc.
I would love to do an empath, but there are no rules guidelines for this. I
would like to 'influence' emotions, not override them completely like
mind-control would do. Again, I want partial effects on folks with higher egos,
not an abrupt point at which the power stops working. Or is this all covered in
TUM as well?
--
Stirling Westrup | Use of the Internet by this poster
sti@cam.org | is not to be construed as a tacit
| endorsement of Western Technological
| Civilization or its appurtenances.
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:41:14 EST
Subject: Re: Future of Hero System
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< I think as long as we fans stick by the system, Hero system will
survive wether or not Hero games wants it to.>>
Amen!
Mark @ GRG
From: "James Jandebeur" <waveking@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editio
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:48:22 -0800
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Yes, Seeker is all you say, and yet, if you could get Perez back for one
more shot of the mess Destroyer makes of him, I think it would all be
worthwhile. Or someone who can do the next shot in the same style.
I know this isn't likely, but it would be nice to see.
JAJ
>>You mean the one done by George Perez? With Seeker jumping to attack Dr.
>>Destroyer (presumably without effect and a lot of pain on Seeker's side)?
>>Why does it need to be changed?
>
>Quite simply, because Seeker's very existance is a like unto a pimple on
>the face of the prom queen. He should have died a horrible, bloody death
>years ago.
>
>Bring back Marksman and/or Flare.
>
>Let Seeker Die Like a Dingo
>
> | David A. Fair
> Think Different | SDS International
> | dfair@sdslink.com
>
>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:27:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Slipperiness
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On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> At 11:28 AM 12/17/97 -0500, Geoffrey Speare wrote:
> >> OK, so if we take the row for "Stone" as a pattern and apply -2 BODY for
> >> every 1/2X thickness, and apply the Transform only to the top 125mm, that's
> >> 8 BODY. Does that work for everyone here?
> >
> >I have to say it seems odd basing the power on something like this (which
> >shouldn't really have much of an effect on how the power works).
>
> How much BODY is needed for the Transform (how cold the beam has to be
> to freeze the ground, or how much oil has to be spilled to make it
> slippery, or whatever) can make quite a difference. It's a lot easier to
> do this with 8 BODY than with 16.
> ---
I think Geoff's point is the same as my objection to the Transform
construction. The BODY _does_ make a difference if you build slipperiness
this way, but SFX-wise it shouldn't. Why should a more durable material be
more difficult to make slippery?
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:59:22 -0800
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger)
Subject: Art in Upcoming Books...
Content-Description: cc:Mail note part
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Someone (I think it was Rook) stated that any new books should have
art done in the Image style.
Well, we've already got an Image-verse...C:NM. These books have had
absolutely the worst art I've ever seen. The huge muscles, the giant
guns, the even gianter breasts, the horribly uncomfortable-not-to
mention-physically-impossible stances...the list goes on and on. I've
only read C:NM one time, because the art is so hard to look at.
I'd guess the Hero guys (and GoldRushGames, for that matter) can't
afford the professional comic artists they've had in the past (like
Perez, Willingham, and Edlund), but at least hire someone who draws in
a halfway decent style.
So consider this a vote for continuing art in the four-color vein that
all the other Hero books have had, rather than doing Image stuff (1).
(1) Note: I do not consider Astro City, Mage II, or Leave it to Chance
to be Image stuff, even though they are put out by Image. If Hero can
get Alex Ross, Brent Anderson, Matt Wagner or Paul Smith to do art,
more power to 'em!)
Richard
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:03:38 -0800
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On Tuesday, December 16, 1997 1:54 PM, wrote:
>Some recent discussion on the list brought up an aspect of the Aid
power I
>had never considered. Can Aid be used to grant powers that the target
>doesn't have? For that matter can the other adjustment powers? Say an
>aborption to energy blast that gives the user an energy blast they
don't
>normally have acess to.
Not normally. However, it might be a good solution to Transformations
that create useful changes in one's friends and that add points. If
you want to fly with wings, you use Transformation and subtract
something else, such as STR. If you want to fly with wings without
reducing something else, use Aid as well.
Yes, it's expensive, but adding points is potentially _very_ abusive.
Filksinger
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage o
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:14:45 -0800
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On Tuesday, December 16, 1997 8:26 PM, Opal wrote:
> t<snip>
>
>Another question:
>
>50 Multipower
> 5 u 10d EB
> 3 u 3d Flash
>--
>58
>
>
>vs
>
>50 10d EB
>30 3d Flash
>--
>80
>
>What is the 2nd character paying 22 points for?
Two things, one minor, one the original reason.
1) The second character has different SFX. Thus, if I have the second
character, a Drain vs SFX cannot affect both powers- they are
separate.
2) The second power lacks cohesiveness. In order to promote character
write-ups where the powers all have some sort of connection,
explaining why one person has all of them. Elemental Control and
Multipower both had this as original justifications.
Now, that doesn't mean you are wrong in thinking you also lose the
ability to link them at will. I have no opinion on this, save as a GM
ruling that I haven't had to make yet. But it does give reasons, and
the second, original reason existed before Linked and at a time when
two powers _officially_ could not be used together.
Filksinger
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:48:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Reply-To: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Slipperiness
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On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Fvigil wrote:
> In a message dated 97-12-17 13:51:29 EST, you write:
>
> > I think Geoff's point is the same as my objection to the Transform
> > construction. The BODY _does_ make a difference if you build slipperiness
> > this way, but SFX-wise it shouldn't. Why should a more durable material be
> > more difficult to make slippery?
>
> You could figure that the transform is on the air just over the floor, but
> this would cause a problem in the other direction - since air has damn near 0
> body.
>
This just gave me a kind of weird idea. In the past, I've done seeking
missiles with a Summon which creates an Automaton. This requires a
broad view of Summon, which states that it summons a being from another
place (but it probably shouldn't say that.) So how about a Summon
Slipperiness?
The oil slick, ice slick, or whatever, could be an Automaton with a 0 STR
Martial Throw and whatever other effects are necessary. A liquid slick
could have a limited Desolidification, while ice would simply have normal
DEF & BODY.
Sure it's weird, and not quite 100% legal, but it might be legal enough
for a supplement. I still think Slipperiness deserves a new power, but
this might make a decent fix until the next (hypothetically speaking)
edition.
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:04:26 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Art in Upcoming Books...
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On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Richard G Schwerdtfeger wrote:
> Someone (I think it was Rook) stated that any new books should have
> art done in the Image style.
>
> Well, we've already got an Image-verse...C:NM. These books have had
> absolutely the worst art I've ever seen. The huge muscles, the giant
> guns, the even gianter breasts, the horribly uncomfortable-not-to
> mention-physically-impossible stances...the list goes on and on. I've
> only read C:NM one time, because the art is so hard to look at.
>
> I'd guess the Hero guys (and GoldRushGames, for that matter) can't
> afford the professional comic artists they've had in the past (like
> Perez, Willingham, and Edlund), but at least hire someone who draws in
> a halfway decent style.
>
I'd certainly be happy not to have absurd Image-style art in books, and I
imagine that the majority of current Hero gamers would, since most have
probably been into both gaming and comics long enough to remember the
"good old days."
However, I can understand that for gaming companies, bringing in new
gamers is quite desirable, and if they want to bring in the 14 year old
fanboys, Image-style illustration might be a good way to do it.
What I'd like to see is a mix of styles appropriate to the genre(s)
involved in any given rulebook. Thus, the hypothetical 5th edition could
include work suggesting Golden Age, Silver Age, and Modern superheroes, as
well as stuff appropriate to just about any other genre the rules might be
used for. I suppose this could get distractingly incoherent, but if
well-handled it might be a nice way of highlighting the flexibility of the
Hero system.
While I'm on the art topic, I'd just like to say that the BBB cover never
really said "Superhero RPG" to me. (It told me to go out and axe-murder
people, but that's a long story.) Seeker, a shirtless guy with a sword,
just isn't emblematic of comic book superheroes. I was at GenCon the year
the BBB came out, and heard the Hero gurus explain that Seeker became the
cover boy because of a complicated set of rearrangements to make the
Champions diverse in ethnicity and gender. (They failed to explain exactly
why this meant the white guy had to be on all the product covers.)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:10:17 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
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On 17 Dec 1997, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> MS> What a minute, my copy of the BBB and the HSR says *nothing* about not
> MS> being able to increase the number of points a character has.
>
> Its in there, tucked away inside the writeup of Transformation Attack.
Rat, we've been _over_ this before. That restriction didn't make it into
4th Edition. It should have, it's vitally needed for Transform to be
balanced (well, some limit on the amount of increase would be okay as
well), but it ain't there. The current by-the-book version of Transform
can change its target into _anything_.
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:15:22 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
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On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> > Just remember that Transformation cannot add points to a character, it can
> > only shift them around or take them away.
>
> Nope. They can add, actually. That's been a matter of debate on
> whether they should, but they most definately *can*.
>
> I personally think this is the best way to represent this type of
> thing. Yes, it may seem sort of unbalanced to change that 0-point normal
> to a 1500 point Giant Lizard, Ape, or Wolfman (ala Rampage), but it is a
> valid SFX.
And because it'a valid SFX, it's therefore necessary that it should be
doable with Transform alone? If you're suggesting that disallowing point
increases from Transform would make it impossible or even mildly difficult
to build these effects, you're nuts.
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:18:04 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
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On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> You were pointing out how AE becomes quickly more effective with its 2X
> radius per +1/4 Advantage vs Explosions +1" radius per +1/4 Advantage.
> Some time ago, someone pointed out that Explosions with 2X radius per +1/4
> eventually becomes much more effective than AE at the same level. I was
> curious to see if one of the list's resident number-crunchers could do the
> numbers to see if adding +1/4 to the cost of Explosion (and 2X radius per
> +1/4) would make it more equitable.
<shrug> I'm not surely exactly what numbers you're requesting, but surely
adding another +1/4 would only mean a minor change in _when_ Explosions
become more effective?
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:48:11 -0500
From: "Kevin J. McClain" <KevLord@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: KevLord@worldnet.att.net
Organization: Courts of Kirkwood
Subject: Re: Talent: Intuition
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An excellent suggestion. Mind if I start using it right away? I am curious as
to why you chose EGO over INT. That seems to suggest that it is an expression
of Will if it isn't a true mental power.
Bill Svitavsky wrote:
> This seems to be the time to trot out all the house rules and ideas for new
> powers, so here's another one of mine:
>
> INTUITION
>
> This EGO-based talent is the ability to leap to a correct conclusion
> without all the facts necessary to make a logical conclusion. It is similar
> to the Skill Deduction, and should likewise be used sparingly. However,
> this talent differs from deduction in both applicability and results. A
> character may attempt an Intuition Roll to reach some understanding in the
> absence of complete information. The conclusion he or she reaches, though,
> may not answer the question the player had in mind. The conclusion will
> also be less definite than the product of logical reasoning - a "hunch" -
> and the Skill Roll should therefore generally be made by the GM. A failed
> Intuition Roll usually means that the character has no strong feeling about
> the situation, or it can mean an incorrect hunch.
>
> Cost: 3 points for a 9+(EGO/5) base roll, +2 points per +1 to the roll.
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 17 Dec 1997 16:39:10 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
TRG> No. This is a terrible idea. Many opportunities for abuse. I'd
TRG> really go with a transform here, or make a power UBO.
Just remember that Transformation cannot add points to a character, it can
only shift them around or take them away.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
\
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:48:54 -0800
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On Tuesday, December 16, 1997 8:33 PM, Firelynx16 wrote:
<snip>
>I'll just throw this out and see what people on the list think... but
if the
>Limitation is only applied to the smaller of the two powers, wouldn't
that by
>definition mean that the larger of the powers shouldn't be affected
by
>anything in a negative way. In other words, since there isn't any
Limitation
>on the larger power, shouldn't it be able to act just as any other
like power
>with no Limitation? I know there is a school of thought that the two
powers
>become a new power, but it seems wrong to me to 'limit' the larger
power, when
>you aren't getting any Limitation price break on it.
This is a good argument, but it has a flaw. Putting the limitation on
the larger power allows for enormous savings for no disadvantage
whatsoever. A 20d6 EB with Linked saves 33 pts. A basic CE (light)
could be linked to the EB, costing only 3 pts. This gives you
virtually no limitation whatsoever for a considerable savings.
Putting the limitation only on the smaller power is the simplest
solution, and the one that Hero Games uses (regardless of which side
of the GLB you are on). Another possible solution would be to vary the
value of Linked, dependent upon the cost of the lesser power. However,
Linked already effectively does that.
My personal favorite solution is -1/4 Linked "Cannot use smaller power
without larger in proportion" and -1/2 Linked "Cannot use either power
without the linked power in proportion". This adjusts the points saved
to fit the lesser power nicely, with a clean, smooth solution to most
problems with Linked.
Filksinger
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:53:17 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editi
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On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Fvigil wrote:
> I think that Strength _is_ broken, but past discussions have convinced me
> that fixing it it is not worth the turmoil that it would cause (like
> correcting 99% of the existing characters.)
You'd have to correct 99% of existing PCs, maybe, but hardly 99% of
existing characters (NPCs don't need to be point-balanced). And the
former is only an issue if you try to change editions mid-campaign,
which will always cause some problems.
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:55:15 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editi
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On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Filksinger wrote:
> Agreed. We agreed to have no changes that invalidated a large number
> of previously designed characters.
Huh? Who's "we"? When did "we" agree to that?
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:58:27 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editi
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On 16 Dec 1997, Opal wrote:
> t > The system is considerably better balanced if you make "combinable"
> t > the default, IMO.
>
> Well, it would mean that two attack powers bought outside of a Multipower
> are something other than just a waste of points...
Or, as I'd put it, it would mean that putting multiple attack Powers
_in_ a Multipower isn't a total point crock. If they do rule that
multiple attack Powers can't be used simultaneously by default,
then having multiple such Powers in a Multipower would obviously
have to be outlawed.
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:00:21 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Reply-To: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Talent: Intuition
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On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Kevin J. McClain wrote:
> An excellent suggestion. Mind if I start using it right away? I am curious as
> to why you chose EGO over INT. That seems to suggest that it is an expression
> of Will if it isn't a true mental power.
>
I'm glad you like it - please do use it.
As far as being EGO-based, I figured intuition's more a sign of
a well-developed psyche than it is the product of rational thought. INT
seems to be used most often to represent "left brain" kind of thinking.
But you're right, sheer willpower (the chief application of EGO) doesn't
necessarily make one highly intuitive, and it's entirely possible for
someone weak-willed to have good intuition. I definitely wouldn't make
this talent INT-based, but I could see a good case for making it base 11-.
By the way, Fox Mulder is an excellent example of a character with
Intuition.
> Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>
> > This seems to be the time to trot out all the house rules and ideas for new
> > powers, so here's another one of mine:
> >
> > INTUITION
> >
> > This EGO-based talent is the ability to leap to a correct conclusion
> > without all the facts necessary to make a logical conclusion. It is similar
> > to the Skill Deduction, and should likewise be used sparingly. However,
> > this talent differs from deduction in both applicability and results. A
> > character may attempt an Intuition Roll to reach some understanding in the
> > absence of complete information. The conclusion he or she reaches, though,
> > may not answer the question the player had in mind. The conclusion will
> > also be less definite than the product of logical reasoning - a "hunch" -
> > and the Skill Roll should therefore generally be made by the GM. A failed
> > Intuition Roll usually means that the character has no strong feeling about
> > the situation, or it can mean an incorrect hunch.
> >
> > Cost: 3 points for a 9+(EGO/5) base roll, +2 points per +1 to the roll.
>
>
>
>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 18:00:51 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
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On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
> >> He can't turn those 25 point peasants into tigers (233 points according to
> >> the HERO Bestiary).
> >
> >This, too, can be done with Transform linked to Aid, or just "Summon
> >Tigers, requires peasants nearby(-1/2)" if you consider the peasants to be
> >effectively just scenery.
> >
> Um, the Aid would be very difficult to work out on that (IMO).
Possibly. If the resulting form is totally different from the original,
Transform linked to Summon would probably be cleaner than Transform
linked to Aid, albeit slightly less kosher.
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Slipperiness
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:01:38 -0800
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On Wednesday, December 17, 1997 7:24 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
<snip>
>
> OK, so if we take the row for "Stone" as a pattern and apply -2
BODY for
>every 1/2X thickness, and apply the Transform only to the top 125mm,
that's
>8 BODY. Does that work for everyone here?
>
Well, that does make it harder to create a slippery surface on a
sidewalk than on ordinary dirt.
I suggest that you determine a good BODY for a sheet of ice covering
one hex (not necessarily the correct BODY, but one good for game
mechanics), and just use the creation version of Transformation. Then
it doesn't normally matter _what_ surface you are on.
Filksinger
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:06:02 -0800
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On Wednesday, December 17, 1997 9:22 AM, GoldRushG wrote:
><< He discussed it! Didn't he?? He said that he said that there
wouldn't be
>one!! That's discussing it in my book!!!>>
>
> :.:.:.gggrrrruummmble.:.:.:
Don't worry. You didn't discuss it, you discussed whether or not you
had discussed it, and what you hadn't discussed about it.
Uh, never mind.
Filksinger
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:19:37 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage
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> I'll just throw this out and see what people on the list think... but if the
> Limitation is only applied to the smaller of the two powers, wouldn't that by
> definition mean that the larger of the powers shouldn't be affected by
> anything in a negative way. In other words, since there isn't any Limitation
> on the larger power, shouldn't it be able to act just as any other like power
> with no Limitation? I know there is a school of thought that the two powers
> become a new power, but it seems wrong to me to 'limit' the larger power, when
> you aren't getting any Limitation price break on it.
Well, the thing is that you are also advantaging the larger power.
It can now be used at the same time as the smaller. As this wasn't before
possible, it is not being fully limited. It is, but the advantage weighs
out a possible lim.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:19:43 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
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On 17 Dec 1997, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> >>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
>
> TRG> No. This is a terrible idea. Many opportunities for abuse. I'd
> TRG> really go with a transform here, or make a power UBO.
>
> Just remember that Transformation cannot add points to a character, it can
> only shift them around or take them away.
What a minute, my copy of the BBB and the HSR says *nothing* about not
being able to increase the number of points a character has. Besides, how
else would your write up the ability for a vampire to create another
vampire?
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* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
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***************************************************************************
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:23:40 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
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On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Filksinger wrote:
> ><< He discussed it! Didn't he?? He said that he said that there
> wouldn't be
> >one!! That's discussing it in my book!!!>>
> >
> > :.:.:.gggrrrruummmble.:.:.:
>
> Don't worry. You didn't discuss it, you discussed whether or not you
> had discussed it, and what you hadn't discussed about it.
>
> Uh, never mind.
Ever see "The Lion in Winter"?
"We know. He knows we know. We know that he knows that we know it. He
knows that we knows this. We're a very knowledgable family."
Or something like that.
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* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:26:22 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
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> Try this rule on for size, regarding FW:
> By default, a Force Wall must be affected by at least two types of
> attacks. If it has more than one type of defense, then it is affected by
> all of those types of attacks. At least one type must be either physical
> or energy. If the Force Wall has no PD or ED, then it must take the
> Transparent Advantage for one of them (the other is filled in my the type
> of defense that the Wall does have).
Hmmm. I'm not sure. It might work, or it might limit Mental-Only
or Power-Only force walls too much. And wouldn't a wall be able to
provide Sight Flash Def just by being opaque?
> > Depends on what is being worn, but 20 seconds isn't unreasonably
> >fast. Of course, your finishing the various buttenings and such while
> >heading back to the stage.
>
> With help, yes. I've tried fast-dressing, and my record is 3 minutes
> (and that was before my current physical problems started setting in). I'd
> call it 5 for a good fit on the time Chart.
Eh. I'm not sure. We are talking Heroes here. Ripping of
clothes to show a costume underneath is a trivial amount of time. And a
normal change of clothes (simple clothes -- Jeans and a T-Shirt) is no
more that 30 seconds with effort.
> > So, something like: Immune to Cold - 2pts; Immune to Heat; 2pts.
> >Both for 3 pts?
>
> Exactly. And Immune to Vacuum - 2 pts; Immune to Pressure - 2 pts; both
> for 3 pts. :-]
OK. This is good, actually. Saves room on a character sheet, but
actually changes nothing that would make redoing of old chars necessary.
> What I was meaning was that 10 points *may* be to expensive. I'm not
> sure yet.
O.K.
> > Hmmmm. Maybe 10 pts for having common ways to die, 15 for an
> >uncommon way to die, 20 for no way to die?
>
> I like that one.
So do I. Quick and simple. If 10 pts is too expensive. Do the
same type of thing with 8 - 12 - 16 or 6 - 9 - 12.
But a 10 to 20 pt range sounds right for just not dying,
considering how minor BOD damage really is in the combat of the system.
> > I'm not exactly sure what you're asking for here.
>
> You were pointing out how AE becomes quickly more effective with its 2X
> radius per +1/4 Advantage vs Explosions +1" radius per +1/4 Advantage.
> Some time ago, someone pointed out that Explosions with 2X radius per +1/4
> eventually becomes much more effective than AE at the same level. I was
> curious to see if one of the list's resident number-crunchers could do the
> numbers to see if adding +1/4 to the cost of Explosion (and 2X radius per
> +1/4) would make it more equitable.
Not a bad idea. Not something I feel like doing, what it being
finals week and all.
-Tim Gilberg
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:37:39 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
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>Just remember that Transformation cannot add points to a character, it can
>only shift them around or take them away.
Where does it say that? In the examples given in the book it seems like the
only way to do them is to give points.... I dont remember a no-points
granted clause, perhaps I misread.
----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> writes:
MS> What a minute, my copy of the BBB and the HSR says *nothing* about not
MS> being able to increase the number of points a character has.
Its in there, tucked away inside the writeup of Transformation Attack.
MS> Besides, how else would your write up the ability for a vampire to
MS> create another vampire?
The "another vampire" undergoes a radiation accident of sorts. If it is an
NPC it does not really matter since NPCs do not need to balance. A PC will
probably shift his disadvantages around.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover
\ head.
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:49:59 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
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> TRG> No. This is a terrible idea. Many opportunities for abuse. I'd
> TRG> really go with a transform here, or make a power UBO.
>
> Just remember that Transformation cannot add points to a character, it can
> only shift them around or take them away.
Nope. They can add, actually. That's been a matter of debate on
whether they should, but they most definately *can*.
I personally think this is the best way to represent this type of
thing. Yes, it may seem sort of unbalanced to change that 0-point normal
to a 1500 point Giant Lizard, Ape, or Wolfman (ala Rampage), but it is a
valid SFX. There is a reason that GMs are told to very closely watch
Transforms.
Villians, on the other hand, use these types of things all the
time. What comic book series has never had a "turn the people into
mindless zombies" episode?
-Tim Gilberg
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:55:47 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
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At 04:26 PM 12/17/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> Try this rule on for size, regarding FW:
>> By default, a Force Wall must be affected by at least two types of
>> attacks. If it has more than one type of defense, then it is affected by
>> all of those types of attacks. At least one type must be either physical
>> or energy. If the Force Wall has no PD or ED, then it must take the
>> Transparent Advantage for one of them (the other is filled in my the type
>> of defense that the Wall does have).
>
> Hmmm. I'm not sure. It might work, or it might limit Mental-Only
>or Power-Only force walls too much. And wouldn't a wall be able to
>provide Sight Flash Def just by being opaque?
That it would, in a way, by default. Same goes for opaque Entangles,
though.
Whether that would count for this rule or not is a matter for debate,
and I could see both sides of it.
>> > So, something like: Immune to Cold - 2pts; Immune to Heat; 2pts.
>> >Both for 3 pts?
>>
>> Exactly. And Immune to Vacuum - 2 pts; Immune to Pressure - 2 pts; both
>> for 3 pts. :-]
>
> OK. This is good, actually. Saves room on a character sheet, but
>actually changes nothing that would make redoing of old chars necessary.
Which is precisely the purpose. I think the construct is simple enough
and the application common enough to warrant the change.
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Slipperiness
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 22:59:31 +0000 (GMT)
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> > > I think Geoff's point is the same as my objection to the Transform
> > > construction. The BODY _does_ make a difference if you build slipperiness
> > > this way, but SFX-wise it shouldn't. Why should a more durable material be
> > > more difficult to make slippery?
> >
> > You could figure that the transform is on the air just over the floor, but
> > this would cause a problem in the other direction - since air has damn near 0
> > body.
> >
> Sure it's weird, and not quite 100% legal, but it might be legal enough
> for a supplement. I still think Slipperiness deserves a new power, but
> this might make a decent fix until the next (hypothetically speaking)
> edition.
>
I think we're all going about this the wrong way.
We're looking at 'slipperness' from a special effects point of view.
But what about from a mechanics point of view?
What is it we desire?
We need a power that forces a stat-roll every time any action
is attempted which has a connection to that stat, and a method of making
that roll harder to achieve.
Personally, I can see reasons for even having
mental-slicks, or pre-slicks, and I'm sure if I thought about it I
could find a com-slick.
Next is needed a way to break out of the powers hold.
Drain would be great for the penalizing the roll portion, but it fails to
do the 'force the roll on every related action' portion.
Which is why I feel all of this needs a new power.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:00:34 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Discussing 5th Edition
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At 02:06 PM 12/17/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>><< He discussed it! Didn't he?? He said that he said that there
>wouldn't be
>>one!! That's discussing it in my book!!!>>
>>
>> :.:.:.gggrrrruummmble.:.:.:
>
>
>Don't worry. You didn't discuss it, you discussed whether or not you
>had discussed it, and what you hadn't discussed about it.
I find this whole line of conversation discussed-ing.
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 18:18:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
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On 17 Dec 1997, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> MS> What a minute, my copy of the BBB and the HSR says *nothing* about not
> MS> being able to increase the number of points a character has.
>
> Its in there, tucked away inside the writeup of Transformation Attack.
I just double checked, nothing. Rat, why don't you post the exact
sentence and page number so I can find it.
> MS> Besides, how else would your write up the ability for a vampire to
> MS> create another vampire?
>
> The "another vampire" undergoes a radiation accident of sorts. If it is an
> NPC it does not really matter since NPCs do not need to balance. A PC will
> probably shift his disadvantages around.
Rat, you use the 'plot device' excuse far to often. Having numbers of a
vampire's (for example) Transform are needed. Why? Well, for some
vampires (like a Chinese 'hopping' vampire) you might be able to reverse
the process, meaning you would need to know who much Body had been done
that needed undoing. And how about a Dispell or counter Transform? You
would need to have a Transform written up for the Dispell to affect.
I would also point out that in a 150 point Horror Hero game, there is *no*
way you can shift enough disads around to pay for even a basic vampiric
form. Granted, the character will get a new disads (depending on the
genre vampire a *lot* of new disads), but the character will see an
increase in points.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
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***************************************************************************
From: "James Jandebeur" <waveking@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Needed: Mentalist Inspiration
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:20:14 -0800
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But I don't actually want to be invisible. I want to be hard-to-see. I
wanted
something with a gradual success/failure curve, with different amounts
of effect on different viewers, not all or nothing. There are a few places
in
the Hero system that I think a new limitation for gradual decay of effects
would be nice. Something like the old limitation on Entangle that it slowly
faded away. That way one could buy a continuing charge area effect attack
that
slowly lost 1 DC per unit time.
Please, whatever you do, don't cripple yourself like this. To use Images,
especially to cover all but Mental sense, is a horribly overpriced power in
this situation. Buy Invisibility, but not vs. Mental sense group, with a
limitation that it depends on how well you make a Mental Stealth (or some
such roll). Not the Requires Skill roll limitation, but a limitation that
means you are only invisible as long as you beat someone in a skill vs.
their Perception roll. Or something like that. If you want people with
Mental Defenses to be able to see you better, give them a bonus based on
their level of defense (this is probably not worth another limitation,
unless high mental defenses are very common).
JAJ, Rules Philosopher
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:22:24 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
Subject: Trigger and Ranged (Re: Extra Time on a Trig)
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> > You sure about this? I couldn't see anything in the
> > write-up about that. I put a trigger on an energy blast. You are
>
> > saying that because I did that, I lose the ranged aspect of the
> > blast?
> >
>
> I remember having fits coming up with a way around it, but
> darnit, I don't have my BBB...
Page 98 BBB:
TRIGGER
This advantage allows the character to set up a power
that will go off when a given circumstance occurs. This cir-
cumstance must be easily verifiable, and cannot depend on
any senses that the character does not possess. The trigger
could even be a switch that the character must pull, or a
button that he must push. GMs may want the player to
write down the circumstances which will set off the Trigger;
this can prevent arguments later.
If the Power can only be set off by a single Trigger, then
this advantage costs +1/4. If the Trigger can be different
each time the character sets up the Power, then Trigger is a
+1/2 advantage. The Trigger cannot be "whenever the char-
acter is touched"; for this effect use the Power Advantage
<i>Damage Shield</i>.
The character pays END for the Trigger when he sets it
up. A power with a Trigger can usually be spotted with a
PER Roll, unless the Power is bought with the Power
Advantage <i>Invisible Power Effects</i>. If the character wants to
have the Trigger use special senses, these can be bought
specifically for use with the Triggered Power for a -1
Limitation.
<b>Example:</b> <i>Arkelos is leaving his Tower behind, and wants
to set up some magical traps. He buys an Area Effect
Entangle. Using the Trigger Advantage, Arkelos decides
that the Power will go off whenever anyone tries to enter
the room without saying "I'm home". Since Arkelos has no
special senses, the trap will only be set off by normally visi-
ble intruders. If a visible thief tries to enter the room, then
the Entangle will be set off, likely trapping him until
Arkelos returns.</i>
* <b>Trigger Cost Multiplier:</b> +1/4 for a set Trigger, +1/2 for a
Trigger that can be changed each time the Power is used.
Nothing in there says a triggered power can't be ranged. It would be
absurd for it to. Doing that would prevent most uses of triggered traps.
Like the old poison dart set off by a foot plate routine.
--
Rook
Super Hero Links Page:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Fifth Edition - Killing Attacks
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:29:11 -0800
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On Tuesday, December 16, 1997 7:58 AM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "bf" == bobby farris <redbf@ldd.net> writes:
>
>bf> Maybe I don't understand you. 1d6k=15 points and 1d6 normal=5
pt's so
>bf> Killing does cost more than normal.
>
>Watch carefully, and remember that killing attacks require more
expensive
>defenses:
>
>3D6 N: min = 0B/3S, avg = 3B/10.5S, max = 6B/18S
>1D6 K: min = 1B/1S, avg = 3.5B/8.75S, max = 6B/30S
>
>In the middle, KAs are about the same as normal attacks: slightly
more
>Body, slightly less Stun. As one moves towards the max end, the
"Stun
>Lotto" takes a significant upwards swing.
>
>What I would like to see, but I am not sure how to go about pricing
it, is
>to use the "normal" means of reading damage. To wit, for 3DCs of
killing
>attack, roll 3D6 and count the "Body" and Stun as if it were a normal
>attack. Then apply resistant defenses only against the damage.
Maybe
>worth a +1/4 advantage on the power.
This is one of the suggestions in the Digital Hero article on the Hero
games website.
The idea is this. For a +1/4 Advantage, a Normal EB is changed into a
Killing EB. The dice rolled are exactly the same as they are today.
However, all BODY and STUN done are treated as killing damage rather
than normal damage.
Now, this would tend to mess up your bookkeeping on older characters.
However, it is balanced (partly) by an additional suggestion. For
a -1/4 Limitation, the EB looses the ability to bounce or spread. The
end result is supposed to be effectively the same as the original RKA,
but without the STUN lotto or confusing difference between Normal and
Killing dice and damage class.
I would go one further. Using this as the basis, I would create a new
power that acted exactly as above, with exactly the same price as EB.
This would take care of almost all problems, save that all old style
killing attacks would have to be translated. Optionally, you could use
this rule only with new characters, and use the old one with old
characters, if you didn't want to translate.
Filksinger
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 18:32:12 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat
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At 04:02 PM 12/16/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>On Monday, December 15, 1997 5:48 PM, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
><snip>
>>Say, how would one do drunken fighting, anyway? I know there's a
>section
>>on it in Ninja Hero, under Kung Fu, and they list -2 OCV/DCV later in
>NH,
>>but...
>>Drunken Fighters get *better* when they are drunk, right? So, CSL,
>only
>>when drunk?
>
>Uh, no, they don't. When using a Drunken system, you sway and
>otherwise imitate a drunk. Whether or not you are drunk has nothing to
>do with it.
>
Realistically, you're quite correct, but *cinematically*, I'm correct.
Since I do a lot of cinematics in my Champions games, I asked...
Besides, even a "realistic" practitioner of Drunken Fighting might be
better at fighting drunk, or have a greater tolerance to alcohol. Say,
does anyone have any drinking rules for Hero? <g> The only RPG drinking
rules I own are in Tales From the Floating Vagabond... ick. : )
- Jerry
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Invisible STR
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 23:57:26 +0000 (GMT)
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> > Would a character need to buy Invisible STR if they were a
> > thirteen year old girl whose muscle mass or anatomy wasn't vastly different
> > than that of a normal human. (I'm not talking high NCM STR, I'm talking
> > super-Brick STR).
>
> Uh... maybe. I didn't require a 16 year old girl to buy it. Besides, if
> the 13 year old had to buy it, then just about every female comic
> character would have to (except maybe She-Hulk).
>
I don't know about that. Seems to me if I had the ability to lift in
the several tons range, I'd look like one big ball of muscle with no
disernable features otherwise.
So if I made that 13 year old buy IPE, I'd go back and do it to
every hero character out there with super strength. With the possible
exception of anyone going by the name of "The Human Tongue". :)
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 00:02:37 +0000 (GMT)
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> >> > Depends on what is being worn, but 20 seconds isn't unreasonably
> >> >fast. Of course, your finishing the various buttenings and such while
> >> >heading back to the stage.
> >>
> >> With help, yes. I've tried fast-dressing, and my record is 3 minutes
> >> (and that was before my current physical problems started setting in). I'd
> >> call it 5 for a good fit on the time Chart.
> >
Anyone just of out military basic training can tell you that
is humanly possible to go from being totally asleep to dressed, shaved,
showered, bed made in perfect tight fitness, boots shined, and down a flight
of stairs and then lined up in perfect formation in under 3 minutes total.
Cause if you didn't, they just made you run back up and repeat it
all until you did. :)
Course, I haven't been able to repeat it since, Though I used to
be able to be out the door in 10 minutes.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:08:31 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Everybody was Drunk Fu Fightin'...
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>>>Drunken Fighters get *better* when they are drunk, right? So, CSL,
>>only when drunk?
>>Uh, no, they don't. When using a Drunken system, you sway and
>>otherwise imitate a drunk. Whether or not you are drunk has nothing to
>>do with it.
>>
>Realistically, you're quite correct, but *cinematically*, I'm correct.
>Since I do a lot of cinematics in my Champions games, I asked...
>Besides, even a "realistic" practitioner of Drunken Fighting might be
>better at fighting drunk, or have a greater tolerance to alcohol. Say,
>does anyone have any drinking rules for Hero? <g> The only RPG drinking
>rules I own are in Tales From the Floating Vagabond... ick. : )
Obviously (well, to me anyways) a Drunken Fu Fighter would buy:
1D6 Aid to DEX, +30 Capacity (36 CP total, +12 DEX), Fade Rate: 5 CP per
hour (+3/4), 16 Charges (-0), Gestures (-1/4), OAF - Alcohol (-1), DEX only
good for Fighting (-1/4), Side Effects: Physical Limitation: Drunken Stupor
(Frequent, Greatly) and Distinctive Features: Drunk (Not Concealable,
Moderate) (-1/2)
Active Cost: 35 CP
Real Cost: 12 CP
Phys.Lim: Drunken Stupor would inhibit any non-fighting DEX based skills,
plus all INT based skills as well - probably a lot of PRE based skills too!
It would probably add stuff similar to 'Psych.Lim.: Reckless', but that's
debatable.
DF: Drunk includes uncontrollable staggering and swaying, smelling like a
brewery, making inappropriate/incoherent comments, etc.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: AIDMAN meets DNPCguy
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 00:09:43 +0000 (GMT)
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> Well I made a guy that was AIDMAN, he was 250 pts, all he could do is give
> people powers with AIDs, fading over weeks of time, and with the Multipower
> structure he could make a normal person into the equivalent of Dr
> Destroyer... and it didnt fade very fast either. He could do this to
> himself, it would take about half an hour per person, but he could have made
> an army of guys that no team could handle.
>
> That sort of was the origin of this house rule. But an advantage would work
> too, maybe a +1, to allow the Aid to give powers that you dont have normally...
I had a guy whose sole power was summon.
He'd get a random group of 4 to 6 Super Heroes. Power only worked when in
danger. Had an 11- activation with a side effect that he got a random group
of 4 to 6 Super Villians.
Another nick name for him was "Secret Wars Man". :)
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:11:16 -0500 (EST)
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Invisible STR
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Would a character need to buy Invisible STR if they were a
thirteen year old girl whose muscle mass or anatomy wasn't vastly different
than that of a normal human. (I'm not talking high NCM STR, I'm talking
super-Brick STR).
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:15:02 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Normal States
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If there were to some day possibly be a 5th Editionish sort of thing,
hypothetically speaking, it might be nice to have some official backing
for some "common sense" calls that GM's have to make. I'm thinking
specifically of characters whose SFX or backgrounds dictate that they by
nature exist in a state which takes a Power to simulate. Children and
small animals, for instance, must buy Shrinking to simulate their small
size, while elephants have to buy Growth and ghosts (unless built as
Spirits) must buy desolid. The problem comes in the use of Adjustment
Powers - it just makes no sense for a Shrinking Drain to make insects grow
to be human sized.
More than once I've made the GM call "Of course you can't do that." But it
seems like a minor rule somewhere might make things a little easier. It
might fit into the powers in question, or might work nicely as a free
option for both the Persistent Advantage and Powers that are
automatically persistent.
In most cases, the "normal state" in question would involve Always On
powers, though I can think of a few examples where the character can
deviate from its normal form. (Post-Mutant Massacre Kitty Pryde, for
example, or a leprechaun with "growth" powers.)
I'm sure a poorly worded rule would be subject to lots of abuse, so I'd be
interested in other people's takes on this.
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:21:04 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: RE: Secret to Hero
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Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>>-- I had a flick through the BBB and couldn't find it stated (Thats not
>>to say its not in there) but it used to be 1 turn was needed to change
>>into costume. (Well, thats what I remember, anyhow)
>
>It's on p. 141 of the 1st printing BBB in the Action Phase Table, and it's
>actually listed as 1 Phase to change clothes. I always considered this an
>overgenerously short estimate - with my SPD 2 it takes me longer than 6
>seconds to change clothes, and it probably would even if I were just
>removing them to reveal a costume underneath. (I refuse to test this.)
>
>Nevertheless, I rarely make a costume change a big deal in a superhero
>battle, since it's generally so easy in the comics.
>
Oh, yeah. I didn't notice that, and had a PC stand around for almost a
turn changing into his costume. But, let me get an opinion on this...
Inaccessible Focii take 1 Turn to remove.
His "costume" is actually 4 or 5 Inaccessible Focii.
How long does it take him to get out of costume? To get into it?
I said 1 Phase/Focii. Any opinions/comments?
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:25:54 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
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At 06:45 AM 12/17/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> PS: You know the difference between TSR and a tyrannosaurus rex? One is
>an unstoppable juggernaut that devours everything in its path and is feared
>by all, and the other is an extinct animal.
> (Dated joke, I know, but...)
Yeah. It should be WoTC, now... (who ate TSR, btw)
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:32:56 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Batman & Robin
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At 11:06 AM 12/17/97 -0500, David Fair wrote:
>I have never been a reader of most DC Comics, but I have begun reading
>some of the compilation books of Batman (Prodigal & Death of Robin, most
>notably). I find the Batman to be one of the most intriguing types of
>super-heros.
>
>That said, could someone explain the reason for Dick Grayson leaving the
>Batman for me? And what is the Origin of the current Robin?
>
>Thanks for your help, It's hard finding answers to old issue questions
>like this...
>
Well, this is all just my understanding, and I *could* have *some* of it
wrong, but...
Dick Grayson changed his Super ID to Nightwing to "become his own man" so
to speak. This occurred when he was part of the "New" Teen Titans, and was
their leader. Despite him looking similar to Robin, and still being the
leader of the Titans, it is assumed by the general public that Nightwing is
a different guy, and that the new Robin is the same kid...
Now, to Tim Drake. Despite the Bat-books editorial stance that Batman is
an urban legend, and is not proven to exist (yes, ignoring the JLA
appearances and everything), Tim Drake, a young computer genius, managed to
deduce, through the use of TV coverage and surveillance tapes (and, yes,
he's *still* an urban legend), the true identity of Batman as, well, his
next door neighbor, Bruce Wayne.
So, Tim is *not* Bruce's ward, and I believe he's about 16 years old.
Also, recently he has left Bats and is hanging around somewhere else (I
think Europe). He's got his own book (#50 came out today), and it looks
like they're trying to distance him from the Bat... He's on a quest for
self-discovery...
- Jerry
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:34:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
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On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Vox Ludator! wrote:
> At 06:18 PM 12/17/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> >On 17 Dec 1997, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> >
> >> MS> What a minute, my copy of the BBB and the HSR says *nothing* about not
> >> MS> being able to increase the number of points a character has.
> >>
> >> Its in there, tucked away inside the writeup of Transformation Attack.
> >
> >I just double checked, nothing. Rat, why don't you post the exact
> >sentence and page number so I can find it.
>
> Uh, we've been through this before. Rat would need to post the exact
> sentence, page number, and edition number, since this just isn't in 4th
> Edition HERO. He's thinking of 2nd or 3rd edition.
>
It's in Champions III, I'm pretty sure. The absence of that rule in
the 4th edition is a good indication that they deliberately chose
to allow increased points.
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:39:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Invisible STR
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On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
> Would a character need to buy Invisible STR if they were a
> thirteen year old girl whose muscle mass or anatomy wasn't vastly different
> than that of a normal human. (I'm not talking high NCM STR, I'm talking
> super-Brick STR).
Uh... maybe. I didn't require a 16 year old girl to buy it. Besides, if
the 13 year old had to buy it, then just about every female comic
character would have to (except maybe She-Hulk).
I can't figure out what is meant by STR, IPE anyway.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:50:33 +1000
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Champions5th Edition- ha
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At 08:07 PM 12/16/97 -0800, Opal wrote:
> > Okay. . . it's time for everyone to post their thingies on ha. . . . .
> >
> > I actually worked out a 5 pt per d6 idea , where the advantage of ha
> > is that str dice added *automatically* get the benifits of
> > advantages (and lmitations) placed on the ha power , BUT only
> > like hka- limited to one dice of str damage per dice of ha damage
> > . . .
>
>That's part of what I did to... great minds and all :)
>
argh! sawwy i probably just invented it via subconcious osmosis *l*
>Should definitely be part of a revised HA - it allows more reasonable
>Strenght-feat and martial-arts-tricks Multipowers.
>
indeedy. In particular i think ha is a really GOOD power, i've
seen it used heaps of ways, but it needs revision. .
>___
> * OFFLINE 1.58
>
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:51:06 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
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Tim R. Gilberg wrote in response to Bob Greenwade:
>> > Depends on what is being worn, but 20 seconds isn't unreasonably
>> >fast. Of course, your finishing the various buttenings and such while
>> >heading back to the stage.
>>
>> With help, yes. I've tried fast-dressing, and my record is 3 minutes
>> (and that was before my current physical problems started setting in). I'd
>> call it 5 for a good fit on the time Chart.
>
> Eh. I'm not sure. We are talking Heroes here. Ripping of
>clothes to show a costume underneath is a trivial amount of time. And a
>normal change of clothes (simple clothes -- Jeans and a T-Shirt) is no
>more that 30 seconds with effort.
>
Well, in the Boy Scouts (which I am/was a proud member), Lifesaving merit
badge requires a "30 second strip." Yes, it does make me sound a bit...
odd, to say I've timed this for 13 year old boys, but... <g> You're
required to remove: shoes (w/ socks, I think), long pants w/ belt, and
button down shirt in 30 seconds.
"Guys, please remember your bathing suits, okay?"
Most people could do it... it was generally the out-of-shape adults that
were taking the lifeguard course who had the most problems. We had some
guys in the merit badge course that would be standing around waiting for
the watch to go of...
- Jerry
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:51:32 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Invisible STR
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At 07:11 PM 12/17/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
> Would a character need to buy Invisible STR if they were a
>thirteen year old girl whose muscle mass or anatomy wasn't vastly different
>than that of a normal human. (I'm not talking high NCM STR, I'm talking
>super-Brick STR).
I'd only call for that if the IPE (alone, not the entire Power) had a
Limitation, "Only to Disguise Apparent Ability," which I'd probably assign
a -1 1/2.
But on the whole, no.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:01:45 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: Secret to Hero
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At 07:21 PM 12/17/97 -0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>>Nevertheless, I rarely make a costume change a big deal in a superhero
>>battle, since it's generally so easy in the comics.
>>
>Oh, yeah. I didn't notice that, and had a PC stand around for almost a
>turn changing into his costume. But, let me get an opinion on this...
>Inaccessible Focii take 1 Turn to remove.
>His "costume" is actually 4 or 5 Inaccessible Focii.
>How long does it take him to get out of costume? To get into it?
>I said 1 Phase/Focii. Any opinions/comments?
I tend to agree -- though this can come to some pretty good laughs after
a bit:
GM: Okay, it's Segment 2, DEX 30. Lightning Dragon?
LD: Uh, I'd better not jump into the crowd and show off my martial arts
prowess in public. Since I'm already behind the bushes, I drop the
backpack I'm carrying and start pulling off my outer clothes to be in costume.
GM: All right, which garment first?
LD: My left shoe.
. . .
GM: Segment 4, DEX 30. Lightning Dragon?
LD: I guess it's time for my right shoe to come off.
. . .
GM: Segment 6, DEX 30. Lightning Dragon?
LD: I pull my mask out of my pocket and put it on.
. . .
GM: Segment 7, DEX 30. Lightning Dragon?
LD: I take off my shirt.
. . .
GM: Segment 9, DEX 30. Lightning Dragon?
LD: I take off my trousers.
. . .
GM: Segment 11, DEX 30. Lightning Dragon?
LD: I pull my gloves out of my backpack and pull them on.
GM: Which one first?
LD: Uh, the right one.
. . .
GM: Segment 12, DEX 30. Lightning Dragon?
LD: I guess it's time for my left glove.
. . .
GM: Segment 2, DEX 30. Lighting Dragon?
LD: I pull my boots out of my backpack and pull them on.
GM: Which one first?
LD: The left.
. . .
GM: Segment 4, DEX 30. Lighting Dragon?
LD: With my right boot, I'm fully in costume!
. . .
GM: Segment 6, DEX 30. Lighting Dragon?
LD: I jump out of the bushes, and shout, "Now, villains, prepare to face
the fury of the Lightning Dragon!"
GM: What villains?
LD: Huh?
GM: The other heroes have already beaten up the bad guys!
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 20:03:07 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Everybody was Drunk Fu Fightin'...
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John Prins wrote:
>Obviously (well, to me anyways) a Drunken Fu Fighter would buy:
>
>1D6 Aid to DEX, +30 Capacity (36 CP total, +12 DEX), Fade Rate: 5 CP per
>hour (+3/4), 16 Charges (-0), Gestures (-1/4), OAF - Alcohol (-1), DEX only
>good for Fighting (-1/4), Side Effects: Physical Limitation: Drunken Stupor
>(Frequent, Greatly) and Distinctive Features: Drunk (Not Concealable,
>Moderate) (-1/2)
>
>Active Cost: 35 CP
>Real Cost: 12 CP
>
>Phys.Lim: Drunken Stupor would inhibit any non-fighting DEX based skills,
>plus all INT based skills as well - probably a lot of PRE based skills too!
>It would probably add stuff similar to 'Psych.Lim.: Reckless', but that's
>debatable.
>
>DF: Drunk includes uncontrollable staggering and swaying, smelling like a
>brewery, making inappropriate/incoherent comments, etc.
>
VERY nice! Thank you! Now, would you hold a Drunken Fighter to the -2
OCV/-2 DCV for being drunk listed in Ninja Hero?
- Jerry
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:10:16 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
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At 07:34 PM 12/17/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>> >> MS> What a minute, my copy of the BBB and the HSR says *nothing*
about not
>> >> MS> being able to increase the number of points a character has.
>> >>
>> >> Its in there, tucked away inside the writeup of Transformation Attack.
>> >
>> >I just double checked, nothing. Rat, why don't you post the exact
>> >sentence and page number so I can find it.
>>
>> Uh, we've been through this before. Rat would need to post the exact
>> sentence, page number, and edition number, since this just isn't in 4th
>> Edition HERO. He's thinking of 2nd or 3rd edition.
>
>It's in Champions III, I'm pretty sure. The absence of that rule in
>the 4th edition is a good indication that they deliberately chose
>to allow increased points.
While I tend to agree, this makes me wonder: does the change in wording
for Linked from Champions III to the BBB mean that they deliberately chose
to bring us to one anothers' throats?
(Gee, I'm already thinking this way, and Chaos Theory only has a few
scattered notes so far...)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:18:43 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Secret to Hero
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-- I had a flick through the BBB and couldn't find it stated (Thats not
to say its not in there) but it used to be 1 turn was needed to change
into costume. (Well, thats what I remember, anyhow)
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 11:22:59 +1000
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editio
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At 10:46 AM 12/17/97 -0500, David Fair wrote:
>>You mean the one done by George Perez? With Seeker jumping to attack Dr.
>>Destroyer (presumably without effect and a lot of pain on Seeker's side)?
>>Why does it need to be changed?
>
>Quite simply, because Seeker's very existance is a like unto a pimple on
>the face of the prom queen. He should have died a horrible, bloody death
>years ago.
>
>Bring back Marksman and/or Flare.
>
>Let Seeker Die Like a Dingo
>
Who the heck are marksman and fare 1st dn 2nd ed characters?
I actually HAVE an australian baddie called flare, but he's not
the same kind of super. . .
PS: My national super team can kick your national super team any day *l* *j/k*
> | David A. Fair
> Think Different | SDS International
> | dfair@sdslink.com
>
>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 11:29:48 +1000
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
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At 06:16 AM 12/17/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 10:43 PM 12/16/97 -0800, Christopher Taylor wrote:
>>>Some recent discussion on the list brought up an aspect of the Aid power I
>>>had never considered. Can Aid be used to grant powers that the target
>>>doesn't have? For that matter can the other adjustment powers? Say an
>>>aborption to energy blast that gives the user an energy blast they don't
>>>normally have acess to.
>>
>>I let players do that, but the effectiveness is halved, so your Aid to a
>>power the target does not have, or absorb to a power you do not have gives
>>you HALF the points you normally get on the dice... keeps abuse down as a
>>house rule, I strongly advise it for an official rule.
>
> I don't remember if I've addressed this or not, but I do like this rule.
I tend to team it with a transform, but that's just me. .. . as it is an
'aid, energy blast' is almost useless unless you find a willing super,
but which way makes more sence? maybe and advantage is in order instead?
>---
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 11:48:39 +1000
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
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At 06:18 PM 12/17/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>Rat, you use the 'plot device' excuse far to often. Having numbers of a
>vampire's (for example) Transform are needed. Why? Well, for some
>vampires (like a Chinese 'hopping' vampire) you might be able to reverse
>the process, meaning you would need to know who much Body had been done
>that needed undoing. And how about a Dispell or counter Transform? You
>would need to have a Transform written up for the Dispell to affect.
>
If a pc has the points and an ok from the gm, they should
be able to do it. 'Plot device' is not a valid reasoning.
>I would also point out that in a 150 point Horror Hero game, there is *no*
>way you can shift enough disads around to pay for even a basic vampiric
>form. Granted, the character will get a new disads (depending on the
>genre vampire a *lot* of new disads), but the character will see an
>increase in points.
>
Use a general aid (at +2 level?) to add to the points total,
teamed with a transform. . .
>***************************************************************************
>* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
>* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
>* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
>* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
>* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
>* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
>***************************************************************************
>
>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 11:57:30 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Normal States
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At 07:15 PM 12/17/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>In most cases, the "normal state" in question would involve Always On
>powers, though I can think of a few examples where the character can
>deviate from its normal form. (Post-Mutant Massacre Kitty Pryde, for
>example, or a leprechaun with "growth" powers.)
>
>I'm sure a poorly worded rule would be subject to lots of abuse, so I'd be
>interested in other people's takes on this.
>
>
Hows about an addition to 'always on', that being
'natural state'? same value (+1/2), would kinda
cancel out always on and prevent tampering without a
transform power being used. . .size is an easy one,
but what happened to post-massacre pryde? got stuck in
desolid form?
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 18:08:47 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Slipperiness
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-- Bob Greenwade wrote:
<<Snipped>>
>
> I don't mind reducing the amount of BODY required to affect the
> Trasnform, but as much as 16 seems high, 2 seems awfully low.
> AE: Hex is the minimum requirement. Any greater AE, such as AE: Line,
> merely affects each hex separately. In fact, the sample vehicle with a
> Slick uses AE: Line to leave the Slick in its path (though it's an ice path
> -- this is a "nuclear Zamboni," inspired somewhat by Mr. Freeze's car in
> "Batman & Robin").
I know. When I put the number in, I knew it was somewhat low. Try using
the wall body table on page 178 in the BBB. It gives man size ratings for
various thicknesses of materials. Man size could be roughly construed as hex
size but if in doubt, double it.
<<Snipped again>>
>
> That's because it doesn't affect travel speed; it affects the ability to
> accelerate and decelerate. Go out and run across a frozen pond next July,
> Rick, and you'll see what I mean. (Assuming you live far enough south, of
> course.)
Certainly it has a major effect of acceleration (and decelleration). It
just seems to me that your top speed is also lower. Perhaps its the image I have
of the scene in Lethal Weapon 3 with Riggs running across the ice rink. He was
running like hell, but was certainly not at his top speed.
Living in Canberra puts me about 1 1/2 hours from the Snowy Mountains.
But I haven't yet experienced walking or running on a frozen pond.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 18:16:38 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
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>>I let players do that, but the effectiveness is halved, so your Aid to a
>>power the target does not have, or absorb to a power you do not have gives
>>you HALF the points you normally get on the dice... keeps abuse down as a
>>house rule, I strongly advise it for an official rule.
>I tend to team it with a transform, but that's just me. .. . as it is an
>'aid, energy blast' is almost useless unless you find a willing super,
>but which way makes more sence? maybe and advantage is in order instead?
Well I made a guy that was AIDMAN, he was 250 pts, all he could do is give
people powers with AIDs, fading over weeks of time, and with the Multipower
structure he could make a normal person into the equivalent of Dr
Destroyer... and it didnt fade very fast either. He could do this to
himself, it would take about half an hour per person, but he could have made
an army of guys that no team could handle.
That sort of was the origin of this house rule. But an advantage would work
too, maybe a +1, to allow the Aid to give powers that you dont have normally...
----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 21:22:52 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Everybody was Drunk Fu Fightin'...
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>>Obviously (well, to me anyways) a Drunken Fu Fighter would buy:
>>
>>1D6 Aid to DEX, +30 Capacity (36 CP total, +12 DEX), Fade Rate: 5 CP per
<drunken scissor-fu snippage!>
>VERY nice! Thank you! Now, would you hold a Drunken Fighter to the -2
>OCV/-2 DCV for being drunk listed in Ninja Hero?
No, but he should probably buy 'Immune to Alcohol' to bypass that in the
face of stringent GMs. That and it'll save him from psoriasis of the liver
^_^. The Side Effects make him goofy enough without any more penalties. You
_might_ want to throw in Extra Time - since it's not attack, it doesn't
require the player to put everything else on 'halt'. Most Drunk Fu fighters
have the booze kick in pretty quick, though, so I'd keep it to a turn.
Oh crap! I forgot 'Self Only'! It's still cheaper!
1D6 Aid to DEX, +30 Cap., Fade Rate: 5 CP/Hour (+3/4), Self Only (-1/2),
Gestures (-1/4), DEX Only for Fighting (-1/4), Extra Time: 1 Turn (-1), OAF
- Bottle of Booze* (-1), 16 Charges (-0), Side Effects (-1/2)[Phys.Lim:
Drunken Stupor (F,G) and DF: Drunk (NC, Mod)]
Active Cost: 35
Real Cost: 8
*Could be OIF - Booze of Opportunity, but most Drunk Fu Fighters carry their
own...
Throw in Immunity to Alcohol and the technique of Drunk Fu can be yours for
a rock bottom 11 CP!
I can see it now...gang of thugs attacks Drunk Fu master in a bar, and he's
got all his shots set up. For the first turn he does nothing but defend
himself and acrobatically pop down one drink a phase. Then, next turn, the
first Aid kicks in and he starts kickin' ass! Every phase thereafter, he
gets better and better!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 17 Dec 97 18:39:00 -0800
Subject: Special Offers to the li
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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G > Would the list lurkers here be in favor of occasional special offers
G > on Hero
G > products if we were to do that? Something akin to "No shipping on
G > orders" or a
I'd jump at the "No Shipping on orders." But then, I only
have a few things I want right now... once all those Genre Books
and stuff start coming out, I'll just do BIG orders. :)
G > slight discount? We're considering starting seasonal or holiday-themed
G > sales
G > and I wanted to get feedback from folks here on the idea.
G >
G > Mark @ GRG
G >
G > ---
G > * Origin: Usenet:AOL (http://www.aol.com) (1:143/241.0)
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 17 Dec 97 19:11:02 -0800
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage o
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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F >
F > Sorry for the misunderstanding... I should have said "GM should then
F > not allow
F > the Linked Flash", after "deserves no points". In other words, if
F > you're not
F > being limited by the Limitation, it's not worth any points, and
F > shouldn't be
F > allowed. My mistake.
F >
F > 'Lynx
So what you're saying is that there is absolutely no legal
construct that will allow a character to either fire an
EB, fire a flash, or fire an identical, linked flash & EB
at the same time? Because the fact that he has both a
Flash & an EB renders the Linked Limitation 'not limiting'
and it therefore can't be taken?
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 17 Dec 97 19:17:04 -0800
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editi
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r > > > 1. Add an advantage called "Advantaged" which would be the
r > > > counterpart to "Limited".
r > >
r > > Bad idea IMO. There's no need for it given an adequate set of Powers
r > > Advantages.
r > >
r > But a list is never 'complete'. There's always something missing.
r > Such an advatage would make it easier to customize powers, and take
r > a thing away from being a 'house rule advatage' to a 'tournament
r > legal' concept.
r >
Yeah but, what guidelines could you possible five for such a thing?
Taking utility away from a power with limitations is fairly intuitive.
Adding utility with made-up advantages is a lot more work... you
have to have a real feel for the balance of the game.
I think an adequate set of powers and advantages should be able
to cover 'everything' - as long as thier broad enought, they
can then be cut down to size with limitations - includiing
'limited'
Is there some specific thing you've tried to do that seemed to
cry out for an 'Advantaged' advantage? I'll bet there'd be
a way to do it, possibly with a completely different power than
what you where considering....
r > > > 7. Steal a few of the advatages from GURPS, like Richocet.
r > >
r > > What would that be used for?
r > >
r > Allows you to bounce an attack off of a surface. For each time you
r > buy it, you can bounce one more surface. Or so it reads in GURPS.
You can already bounce EBs... I could see an Adv (+1/4?) that would
let you apply that to other attack types...
r > Sort of a variation of 'Indirect'.
r > GURPS has about twice as many advantages for powers as Champions
r > does.
r >
It needs them, it's powers are less generic.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58 * --------------------------------------------------
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 17 Dec 97 20:03:06 -0800
Subject: 5th Edition Hero: Some s
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On 12-15-97 bob.greenwade@klock.com wrote to All...
b > - Similarly seduction should not *necessarily* be sexual. A person
b > be "seduced" by wealth, fame, and power. (Arguably, of course, this
b > be represented with Bribery, though it seems to my mind closer to
b > Seduction, semantically speaking.)
The original write-up of Seduction worked like that: it didn't have
to be sexual, you could just get the other guy to 'like' you...
b > - Darkness, Images, and other Powers whose base forms affect a
b > single sense but which can affect entire Sense Groups should be allowed
b > take +5 points to affect a Sense Group
I've seen this doe a lot.
b > - Energy Blast should not be allowed to be STUN Only for no bonus.
b > Sure, the character doesn't have to worry about collateral damage that
b > but this is relatively minor compared to the utility that's lost
b > the ability to do BODY damage (most specifically as affecting
b > robots, vehicles, and other inanimate objects).
STUN-only EBs are a time-honored tradition... not having to worry
about collateral damage (including dead normals!) is a big plus.
As a matter of fact, if you want to look towards realism, it should
be an advantage. There are very few (I can't think of any) ways
to KO sombody IRL without risking doing some injury to them...
b > - Enhanced Senses should include a Touch Sense Group.
Uhg... Try to think about how an 'Invisible to Touch' character
or stranger yet an Fully Invisible Force Wall (including touch if
it's a sense group) would work....
b > - Extra Limbs should go back to having a cost per limb. My own
b > structure is 5 points for two arms, with reduced costs for lesser
b > (3 points for one arm, 3 for a pair of tentacles, 1 for a single
b > or prehensile tail).
Do you get OCV bonuses like the old version?
I still think there should be the cheapie 5pt for any number version...
just so the Millitant Millipede doesn't cost 1000 points (at 1 per
limb) :)
b > - Flash, as mentioned elsewhere, should be 5 points per die, with
b > BODY pip of Flash working for 1 segment. (It makes Flash Defense more
b > balanced.)
Or, you can leave the cost the same, and count pips as segments...
works out similar to the current way. I only have two problems
with the idea: 1) High SPD characters can recover stun and such
quicker, why not recover from Flash quicker too, and 2) Flash
DEF is balanced, because Flash is so powerful... get Flashed
for even 1 phase in a pitched battle and you can be in BIG
trouble.. the DEF really has to be able to completely negate
the attack to be useful.
b > - Force Field and Force Wall should have Flash Defense, Mental
b > Defense, and Power Defense methods built right in.
I don't see anything terribly wrong with this... except the END
cost might mean fractional costs - ie 3 POW DEF per 2 Apts...
and I'd prefer to see it stay 1:1...
b > - Hand-to-Hand Attack should *not* be omitted; this would leave us
b > with the old kludge of "+X STR, Only for Damage." Use Opal's version
b > instead.
:)
b > - Instant Change should be scaled. (My scale is 5 pts = instant, 4
b > = half Phase, 3 pts = Phase, 2 pts = Turn, 1 pt = minute, normal = 5
b > minutes, with all costs doubled for "any clothing.")
b > - Life Support should have some of its elements able to be broken
b > down
b > even further, like 2 points for being immune to *either* heat *or*
b > cold.
b > Also, 1-2 points for retarded aging is a cool idea.
The obvious, LS: Heat not Cold -1, ends up too cheap doesn't it.
Good idea.
b > - Shrinking should include a "proportional STR" Limitation, say
b > -1/4.
I've linked negative, doesn't add to fig char STR to Shrinking before...
I wonder if that's legal?
b > - Stretching should be cheaper. I like 2 points per 1", though
b > this may be an overreaction.
I'd rather see the cost the same but have it beefed up a bit. Either
that or bite the bullet and re-write it as a movement power.
b > - Swinging should be specifically described as movement per Phase,
b > not movement per swing.
Swining and Gliding should both be Limited Flight.
Heck, all movement powers should be limited 'Movement' :)
(Except Teleport, it would be Indirect Movement)
b > - Transform should be more specifically described as well,
b > especially in
b > terms of what constitutes Cosmetic, Minor, and Major Transforms. (I
b > tend
b > to go with this: if it doesn't affect the character sheet, it's
b > Cosmetic;
b > if it shifts points around on the sheet or alters specific Powers but
b > doesn't change the totals, it's Minor; if it changes point totals,
b > it's
b > Major.)
It should never change point totals - or, at least the Transformed
charactert should still balance. I tend to think that ny
substantially debilitating Transform is Major.
b >
b > - Armor Piercing should be purchasable so that it can do more than
b > halve the target's defenses. However, I do see why this was stopped
b > ed. I'd recommend charging an extra +1/4 for each level higher that
b > Armor Piercing can go (+1 1/4 to quarter defenses, +2 1/4 to reduce to
b > one-eighth, etc.).
I wouldn't really have a problem with it at +1/2... successive halving
are less effective after all... the only problem is that this really
escalates the AP-Hardening arms race.
b > - Explosion should be +3/4 so it doesn't cost the same as AE: One
b > (The old method of making AE: One Hex cost +1/4 wouldn't work, because
b > it would hit the proverbial floor if it's Nonselective.) The
I think Explosion and AE: Hex are balanced - Explosion is really
only useful against serious oponents in center hex, and it does
a lot of collateral damage.
b > Target and Nonselective Target options for AE should also be
b > available.
I'd really like to seea Selective AE, that doesn't require a
to hit roll..... I know, I know, it wouldn't be balanced. :(
b > - Damage Shield should be clarified so that *any* significant
b > contact,
b > including the character with DS making an attack against the target,
b > will
b > cause damage.
That would make it considerably more powerful... have to raise
the Adv level too.
b > - Reduced END should be half END for +1/4, 1 END for +1/2, 0 END
b > for +3/4, and Persistent for +1.
b >
Why? For the detail of 1 END? How much would a 0 END power cost
to be made persistent +1/4 or +1/2?
b > - Activation Roll should go up to a required roll of 3 (which, at
b > rate of 2X the Limitation bonus per -3 to the roll, would be a -6
b > Limitation).
b > - Always On should have a variation where certain Limitations (END
b > Cost, Focus, etc.) represent how the Power is turned off with an effort
Variable Limitation doesn't fit the bill on this?
b > - Charges should be worth an extra +1/2 if the Power to which it's
b > applied normally doesn't cost END (or +1 if the Charges cost END).
Yes.
b > - Extra Time should specify whether the time listed is including or
b > in addition to the half-phase needed to launch an attack with a Power.
b > - Linked should be fixed and specific. My recommendation is to go
b > with the basic, existing -1/2 bonus to make both Powers used in proport
b > essentially being treated as a single Power for most purposes. A
b > character could also have a "one-way" Link, letting one Power be used u
b > level that the other is, for -1/4. Linked should still be applicable o
b > to the smaller Power (but please specify that this means Active Points)
b >
Since the Linked power is likely to have all the same limitation as the
higher Apt one it shouldn't matter whether it's Apts or Rpts before Linked.
Also, what about powers of Identical Apts....
And, it should be clearly stated whether attack powers can be
gang fired by default (and if not, there should be an advantage
allowing it).
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 17 Dec 97 20:04:08 -0800
Subject: Re: Gold Rush Games Mail
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
b > > Hey, that's better than I got it. I go to the store here in San
b > >Francisco (Gamescape on Divisadero) and ask for Ultimate Martial
b > Artist on
b > >disk and get:
b > >
b > > "doesn't exist, Hero games went out of business."
b > >
b > [Sensible Action #1 clipped]
b > >
b > > "doesn't exist, Hero games went out of business."
b > >
b > [Sensible Action #2 clipped]
b > >
b > > "doesn't exist, Hero games went out of business."
b > >
b > [Theoretical Sensible Action clipped]
b > >
b > > "doesn't exist, Hero games went out of business."
b >
b > Since you live in the same general area, maybe you should email
b > Bruce
b > Harlick and have him go down there and explain things to the people
b > there.
b > ---
"You can't be Bruce Harlick, I heard he died..."
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 17 Dec 97 20:12:10 -0800
Subject: Re: Slipperiness
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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b > >reduction in movement and accelleration. Little or nor traction
b > would
b > >mean the tires/feet/etc woudl be moving like hell but not getting
b > very
b > >far.
b >
b >
b > I agree this is missing, although the power already discourages moving
b > rapidly by penalizing the DEX roll for each inch of movement. Rather
b > than
b > further complicating the power, I'd rather leave it to players to
b > construct
b > any additional penalties they feel appropriate, probably through a
b > Suppress
b > vs. movement.
b > ---
Another oddity with Sliperiness is that such a surface can end
up getting you moving faster... the fastest Speed Skaters go
faster than the fastest Sprinters don't they?
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 23:18:37 EST
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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X-UID: 145
In a message dated 97-12-17 17:14:34 EST, you write:
<< TRG> No. This is a terrible idea. Many opportunities for abuse. I'd
TRG> really go with a transform here, or make a power UBO.
Just remember that Transformation cannot add points to a character, it can
only shift them around or take them away. >>
Where is this rule?
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 23:18:52 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Everybody was Drunk Fu Fightin'...
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On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
> VERY nice! Thank you! Now, would you hold a Drunken Fighter to the -2
> OCV/-2 DCV for being drunk listed in Ninja Hero?
Nope.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 20:19:37 -0800
From: mcallahan <mcallahan@home.com>
Reply-To: mcallahan@home.com
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
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>Just remember that Transformation cannot add points to a character, it >can
>only shift them around or take them away.
That was a 3rd edition rule, no where in 4th edition does it mention
anything about how transformation affects point totals. One could argue
that the example for minor transform, dagger into sword, would indeed
increase the point total of the object. Of course a player would have to
be damn convincing for me to let them get away with such a thing.
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 14:27:36 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editi
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At 08:38 PM 12/17/97 -0800, Opal wrote:
> t > Of course, if you just want straight normal HTH damage, the conversion
> t > part isn't useful to you - so you can just take a No Range Energy
> t > Blast or
> t > STR "only to deal damage".
>
>I also think that, once we have a good 5/d HA and the cost of AID
>has been doubled, we should see about making it a hard-and-fast
>rule that Characteristics just plain never go in Power Frameworks.
>(If you want that, buy Aid...)
>___
> * OFFLINE 1.58
>
Aren't charisteristics special powers?
yeesh, they should be. . ...
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 17 Dec 97 20:30:12 -0800
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: So
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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On 12-15-97 tbarrie@ibm.net wrote to All...
t >
t > > - Hand-to-Hand Attack should *not* be omitted; this would leave
t > us with
t > > the old kludge of "+X STR, Only for Damage." Use Opal's version
t > instead.
t >
t > The old kludge works fine IMO.
t >
Say you have a 30 STR character in a game with a 12 DC limit.
Say he wants a sword, no problem: 2d HKAp, 4d total
Say he wants a laser sword, no problem: 2d HKAe, 4d total
Say he wants a (really nasty) club, no problem: 6d HA, 12d total
(or +30 STR, damage only -1)
both cheaper than other normal attacks at the same damage level,
but at least the STR version keeps the same Apts)
Say he wants an energized club....
Um... 12d EBe, no range -1/2? But you're paying 40pts for a
power that (aside from doing energy damage) is no different than
the HA that cost you 18 points or the limited STR that cost you 15
(or 20, if you feel 'no figured characteristics' shouldn't
go into it).
Why? For the energy damage? There's no premium for energy damage
on the HKA.
I know that the difference would be smaller if I were including
other limitation & advantages (all of the above would be OAF,
the sword and club would probably be 0 END, the energy weapons
would probably have charages or END reserve etc...), but that's
not the point.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 17 Dec 97 20:38:14 -0800
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editi
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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On 12-15-97 tbarrie@ibm.net wrote to All...
t > > Don't duck and cover just yet. :^| To begin with, the only thing
t > > wrong with the original HA isn't really something wrong with HA: its
t > > HA costs 3 pts. because 1d6 worth of STR cost 5 points. One is left
t > > either the option of raising STR's cost, or living with HA.
t >
t > Raising STR's cost is really close to the top of the priority queue of
t > things to be changed in 5th Edition, IMO.
<shudder> I feel like Casandra here, but that would kill the
system.
t > I disagree - HA should be the normal-damage equivalent of HKA.
t > Assuming
t > the HA has an Advantage of some kind, it would compare to EB the same
Or is Energy... :)
t > way
t > HKA compares to RKA: inherently No Range, but as a bonus it lets you
t > convert an amount of your STR into a different type of damage.
t >
Whole-heartedly agree... I had a character concept back in the early
80's that just never flew because there was no normal-damage
counterpart for HTH KA (energy).
t > Of course, if you just want straight normal HTH damage, the conversion
t > part isn't useful to you - so you can just take a No Range Energy
t > Blast or
t > STR "only to deal damage".
I also think that, once we have a good 5/d HA and the cost of AID
has been doubled, we should see about making it a hard-and-fast
rule that Characteristics just plain never go in Power Frameworks.
(If you want that, buy Aid...)
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 17 Dec 97 20:41:16 -0800
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: So
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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r >
r > If it was reinstated, how would you do the special effect of the
r > ray gun
r > ordiety that grants powers/turns normals into mutants, etc...
r >
r > Admittadly not a power you let loose into the hands of
r > players in most games,
r >
r > but a mechanic for it should exist.
Still a Transfrom, it's just that in addition to giving you
powers, it gives you lots of nasty disads too.
The other alternatives are a linked aid, to feed point
to the subject.
A Summon that just uses innocent victems as an expendable
focus for summoning similar-looking mutants. :)
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 17 Dec 97 20:49:18 -0800
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editio
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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g > >Some people hate the Spirit rules, I rather like them. I would like
g > to
g > >see them expanded upon, possibly as part of the "Incomplete
g > Character"
g > >rules, and cleaned up a bit.
g >
g > I agree. The spirit rules made it possible for RuneQuest-like spirits,
g > which are extremely difficult to do with Desolid, Mind Control, etc.,
g > and
g > to retain the same feel.
g > ---
I definitely don't like the Spirit Rules, but the Incomplete Rules
do let you build Spirits that work similarly and are less balanced.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 17 Dec 97 20:55:20 -0800
Subject: 5th Edition thoughts
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c > ENTANGLE: may buy the defense and body separately at 5 pts each, but
c > one may
c > not be more than double the other.
Bad idea, DEF is more significant than the dice. Stick with
the current limitations... you can always partially limit it.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 00:05:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
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Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
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> > (Dated joke, I know, but...)
> Yeah. It should be WoTC, now... (who ate TSR, btw)
And this was not surprising. If WoTC had not, T$R would still be in
serious financial trouble thanks to mostly self inflicted mistakes.
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 00:10:54 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
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Subject: Re: Batman & Robin
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> Dick Grayson changed his Super ID to Nightwing to "become his own man" so
> to speak. This occurred when he was part of the "New" Teen Titans, and was
> their leader. Despite him looking similar to Robin, and still being the
> leader of the Titans, it is assumed by the general public that Nightwing is
> a different guy, and that the new Robin is the same kid...
I'm not so sure of this part. I agree they might think Nightwing was a
different guy (Though he was sill involved with the same member of the
Teen Titans and had the same position as Robin, so it would not be tough
to decide they were the same). To be honest I can't find where they ever
really commented on this one way or the other. It would be interesting if
they did though.
> Now, to Tim Drake. Despite the Bat-books editorial stance that Batman is
> an urban legend, and is not proven to exist (yes, ignoring the JLA
> appearances and everything), Tim Drake, a young computer genius, managed to
> deduce, through the use of TV coverage and surveillance tapes (and, yes,
> he's *still* an urban legend), the true identity of Batman as, well, his
> next door neighbor, Bruce Wayne.
True, though HOW he could be an Urban Legend is beyond me. Way to much
publicity, witnesses, ect.
> So, Tim is *not* Bruce's ward, and I believe he's about 16 years old.
> Also, recently he has left Bats and is hanging around somewhere else (I
> think Europe). He's got his own book (#50 came out today), and it looks
> like they're trying to distance him from the Bat... He's on a quest for
> self-discovery...
Tim's dad is still alive, so it's true, hes not Bruce's ward. He's
currently in Paris (Where he originally started seriously learning martial
arts) and learning from another master of the same style he started
learning on his last trip there.
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 15:19:33 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
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At 12:05 AM 12/18/97 -0500, Tokyo Mark wrote:
>> > (Dated joke, I know, but...)
>> Yeah. It should be WoTC, now... (who ate TSR, btw)
>
>And this was not surprising. If WoTC had not, T$R would still be in
>serious financial trouble thanks to mostly self inflicted mistakes.
>
>
>
Hey, so they got a little over-zealous in the novel department. .
at least they support their systems properly. .. .
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 01:01:53 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Batman & Robin
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Tokyo Mark wrote:
>> Dick Grayson changed his Super ID to Nightwing to "become his own man" so
>> to speak. This occurred when he was part of the "New" Teen Titans, and was
>> their leader. Despite him looking similar to Robin, and still being the
>> leader of the Titans, it is assumed by the general public that Nightwing is
>> a different guy, and that the new Robin is the same kid...
>
>I'm not so sure of this part. I agree they might think Nightwing was a
>different guy (Though he was sill involved with the same member of the
>Teen Titans and had the same position as Robin, so it would not be tough
>to decide they were the same). To be honest I can't find where they ever
>really commented on this one way or the other. It would be interesting if
>they did though.
>
hmm. I read most of this on the rec.arts.dc.universe newsgroup.
Apparently, there was an issue where Bullock was talking about Tim (the new
Robin), and many people seemed not to know Dick was both NW and Robin.
Recently in Teen Titans, he showed up as Nightwing, and it was supposed to
be a reunion of the *original* Titans... no one questioned it.
The main reason that assuming the two (three) Robins are the same person is
that DC has compressed its entire timeline into 10 years, or 11 for Bats.
Dick Grayson became Robin about 10 years ago, IIRC.
>> Now, to Tim Drake. Despite the Bat-books editorial stance that Batman is
>> an urban legend, and is not proven to exist (yes, ignoring the JLA
>> appearances and everything), Tim Drake, a young computer genius, managed to
>> deduce, through the use of TV coverage and surveillance tapes (and, yes,
>> he's *still* an urban legend), the true identity of Batman as, well, his
>> next door neighbor, Bruce Wayne.
>
>True, though HOW he could be an Urban Legend is beyond me. Way to much
>publicity, witnesses, ect.
>
Yeah, well, Denny O'Neil (that's the main Batman editor, right?) decided it
was so, so it's so. I agree with you... he's a member of the freakin' JLA!!!
- Jerry
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 22:02:32 -0800
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On Wednesday, December 17, 1997 1:43 PM, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>And wouldn't a wall be able to
>provide Sight Flash Def just by being opaque?
No. Sight Flash Defense allows you to see without being blinded by
Flash. With the ability you mention, you can't see. You could get the
same defense by going into combat with your eyes closed.
Filksinger
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 17 Dec 97 22:05:00 -0800
Subject: 5th edition cont'd
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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c > ATTACKS FROM SURPRISE: Rather than the rule that ambush attacks doing
c > double stun, change this to CON being halved for purposes of being stun
c > easy to be stunned by an attack you don't expect (ever run into a door
c > surprise?), but rarely does this result in unconsciousness.
c >
Not a bad idea...
c > BEING KNOCKED OUT: As written, the unconsciousness levels are by an
c > formula of 10 point blocks. This is simpler to work with, but is not
c > realistic as it could be. For greater believability, the system used
c > similar, but the first level (up to -10 = recover each phase) is now
c > -CON, so a victim with a 23 CON would have to be taken below -24 stun
c > than their 23 CON) to move to the next level of unconsciousness. From
c > point on, it is the standard 10 point steps. This helps represent
c >
That's not too bad... y'know it used to be multiples of Recovery...
c > This one is a really good idea:
c > BLOCK: A block maneuver as now listed is pathetically easy. The
c > used is somewhat more challenging, and represents the fact that a more
c > expertly executed attack is more difficult to avoid. The Block roll is
c > attempted against the DCV the aggressor hit, so if A attacks B, and
c > DCV, B must make a block roll that would hit an 8 DCV in order to
c > attack. This has the effect of making blocks much more difficult to
c > achieve, thus the penalties on block and cost for martial art element
c > block is in discussion.
c >
Actually that doesn't make it harder overall, just more variable...
sometimes it'll be easier... For instance, a 12 OCV character can
roll 15 on his to hit, and the Block roll will be against an 8 instead
of 12.
I can see it as a good optional rule though.
c >
c >
c > ----------------------------------------------------------
c > Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
c > Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
c > -----------------------------------------------------------
c >
c >
c > ---
c > * Origin: Red October Gateway (1:143/241.0)
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 22:07:31 -0800
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On Wednesday, December 17, 1997 2:02 PM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
<snip>
>>>>>> "MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> writes:
>
>MS> What a minute, my copy of the BBB and the HSR says *nothing*
about not
>MS> being able to increase the number of points a character has.
>
>Its in there, tucked away inside the writeup of Transformation
Attack.
>
Not in my copy. Nor has anyone I have asked about it, when pressed,
been able to find it in their copy. It was 3rd Ed, not 4th.
Quote it, and I'll believe it.
Filksinger
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 17 Dec 97 22:08:02 -0800
Subject: 5th Edition concluded
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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c >
c > NORMAL ATTACK: 5 points per die, defined either as ranged or
c > STR
c > adds damage.
c >
c > KILLING ATTACK: 15 points per die, defined as either ranged or
c > STR
c > adds damage.
c >
c > +1/2: add ranged or STR adds damage as an element to the
c > attack.
c >
c > voila, consistent, simple, fits the damage class structure, and works
c > with
c > the present system.
c > ----------------------------------------------------------
Yep, now try to convince the 'STR is overpriced set' :)
They'll start with... why buy 'Normal Attack, no range/STR adds'
for 5pts when I can buy STR, no fig char and get -1/2 lim...
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 17 Dec 97 22:09:04 -0800
Subject: Re: 5th edition, contd
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s > > SIDE EFFECTS: At the present cost, very low power effects are
s > severely
s > > punished by this advantage. Thus, the chart is slightly different:
s > >=20
s > > =09=09=09-1/4 =BD the power level, minimum 20 PTS
s > > =09=09=09-1/2 equal to power level, minimum 50 PTS
s >
s > I was wondering about a variation on Side Effects, where the power
s > affects
s > not the character but his environment. For example, you crank up your
s > mega-chi Aid and create a minor shockwave centered on your person.
s > People
s > get knocked over, your surroundings get wrecked, etc.
s >
Link an AE attack to it. There are a lot of situations where that
could be useful.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Invisible STR
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 22:14:23 -0800
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On Wednesday, December 17, 1997 3:40 PM, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
> Would a character need to buy Invisible STR if they were a
>thirteen year old girl whose muscle mass or anatomy wasn't vastly
different
>than that of a normal human. (I'm not talking high NCM STR, I'm
talking
>super-Brick STR).
Normally, no. However, in some campaigns a GM might make such a ruling
as appropriate to the world or genre.
Filksinger
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 01:15:35 EST
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
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<< Don't worry. You didn't discuss it, you discussed whether or not you
had discussed it, and what you hadn't discussed about it.>>
I don't want to discuss it any more. :D
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 01:15:41 EST
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editi
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<< Huh? Who's "we"? When did "we" agree to that?>>
To quote a famous First Lady,...
I don't recall. ;)
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 01:15:43 EST
Subject: Re: Gold Rush Games Mail
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<< "You can't be Bruce Harlick, I heard he died...">>
I can neither confirm nor deny the rumored report of Bruce Harlick's death.
Mark @ GRG
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 01:15:49 EST
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage o
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In a message dated 97-12-17 23:18:55 EST, you write:
<< So what you're saying is that there is absolutely no legal
construct that will allow a character to either fire an
EB, fire a flash, or fire an identical, linked flash & EB
at the same time? Because the fact that he has both a
Flash & an EB renders the Linked Limitation 'not limiting'
and it therefore can't be taken? >>
It would probably depend upon the SFX of the powers involved. If it really
made sense for the character, I'd try to work something out so that the player
and I would both be as happy as possible. That said, it would be the
exception rather than the rule, because like I said before, one of the biggest
limitations of the Limitation 'Linked' is that you can't get at the smaller
power (the Flash in this case) without firing off the bigger power (EB).
Letting the character simply have an identical EB and Flash outside the
construct countermands the limitation altogether. I guess it would also
depend on which camp you belong to... you can only fire one attack per attack
roll, or you can fire as many attacks as you have the End etc to. Luckily, no
one has brought it up in my game.
'Lynx
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 17 Dec 97 22:18:06 -0800
Subject: Re: 5th Edition thoughts
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b > >DARKNESS: loses the automatic area like CE, and increased area is
b > bought by
b > >the area effect.
b >
b > So what's the point/utility of non-AE CE and Darkness?
b >
None, realy, it's just a minimalist way of getting away from
the fixed cost of increasing the radius and to the more reasonable
+1/4 Advantage per doubling...
b > >DUPLICATION: one heals a lost duplicate as if the points were BODY or
b > >define a given circumstance to get the dead duplicate back... you
b > >lose points for having a duplicate killed any more
b >
b > Good idea. Permanently dead Duplicates should take a Limitation.
b > ---
b > Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
b > ---
Dead is Dead. Would you let a dead character heal back? :)
In my book, losing the points you paid for a duplicate beats
being dead...
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 17 Dec 97 22:22:08 -0800
Subject: Re: What it sees...
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>
> > 1) The Guardian's of power or "what it sees Lo Pan knows". This
> > a simple Mind Link, right? Or should I go with some strange form of
> > Clairsentience Useable by Others? And how about the Lo Pan speaks
> > the Guardian trick? Is this a part of Mind Link, or Images from the
> > Guardian?
>
I'd go for the Mind Link, make it two-way... Lo Pan is just telling
the Gaurdian what to say. Clair doesn't usually manifest at teh
scan point quite like that.... and it gets too expensive.
> I like the idea of giving Lo Pan Clairsentience. Link
> Images(perhaps indirect?)
> with it for comunications. As far as Wang attacking it, The guardian
> seemed
> hurt but Lo Pan was OK. Maybe a limitation on the power that damage
> dispells
> the effect.
>
> Kev
>
>
> ---
> * Origin: Usenet:Courts of Kirkwood (1:143/241.0)
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 01:26:28 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editio
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Opal wrote:
> g > >Some people hate the Spirit rules, I rather like them. I would like
> g > to
> g > >see them expanded upon, possibly as part of the "Incomplete
> g > Character"
> g > >rules, and cleaned up a bit.
> g >
> g > I agree. The spirit rules made it possible for RuneQuest-like spirits,
> g > which are extremely difficult to do with Desolid, Mind Control, etc.,
> g > and
> g > to retain the same feel.
>
>I definitely don't like the Spirit Rules, but the Incomplete Rules
>do let you build Spirits that work similarly and are less balanced.
>
Urm? You meant "less *im*balanced," right? Otherwise, I don't see how
that is an advantage...
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 01:28:42 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Everybody was Drunk Fu Fightin'...
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At 11:18 PM 12/17/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>
>> VERY nice! Thank you! Now, would you hold a Drunken Fighter to the -2
>> OCV/-2 DCV for being drunk listed in Ninja Hero?
>
>Nope.
>
Even if you had the other PCs take it? Would the DF pay for this ability?
John Prins suggested Immunity to alcohol...
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 01:33:31 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
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At 03:19 PM 12/18/97 +1000, Michael Jones wrote:
>At 12:05 AM 12/18/97 -0500, Tokyo Mark wrote:
>>> > (Dated joke, I know, but...)
>>> Yeah. It should be WoTC, now... (who ate TSR, btw)
>>
>>And this was not surprising. If WoTC had not, T$R would still be in
>>serious financial trouble thanks to mostly self inflicted mistakes.
>
>Hey, so they got a little over-zealous in the novel department. .
>at least they support their systems properly. .. .
>
Well, they *do* have an expansion out every 6 months or so... oh. What?
He was talking about D&D? Never mind...
- Jerry
Who dislikes *every* *STINKING* player taking a specialty kit... "I have
double handed fighting style, so I can have matched scimitars!" Yeah,
*real* original, pal...
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 17 Dec 97 22:39:10 -0800
Subject: Fifth Edition - Killing
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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n >
n > Why not simply make "Killing" an advantage on normal damage?
n > Say...+1/2? I
n > figure that many purists'd go for +1/4 or more likely just
n > say no, but I truly think that Killing is deadly enough to
n > warrant a +1/2 advantage.
n >
n >
n > Could I hear some thoughts on this, please?
n > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Equal points in KA should do more BOD on average to a normal
and less stun than a normal attack (otherwise it's not
really living up to it's name. If you make it an advantage,
KA will do less BOD accross the board, and low DEF characters
will actually be killed more readily by normal attacks.
The current dice rolling convention works well for KA's if
you just look at average BOD & STN, the problem that needs
to be fixed is the STN lotto.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:50:39 +1000
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Normal States
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At 05:30 PM 12/18/97 -0800, Rick Holding wrote:
>> Hows about an addition to 'always on', that being
>> 'natural state'? same value (+1/2), would kinda
>> cancel out always on and prevent tampering without a
>> transform power being used. . .size is an easy one,
>> but what happened to post-massacre pryde? got stuck in
>> desolid form?
>
> Yep! Unless she concentrated, in which case she was solid until she
>forgot to concentrate.
hmm, that's more of a -1/4 always on. . . that REALLY sounds like
an ffect that a power-supressor could cancel. ..
>--
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
>Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:54:12 +1000
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
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At 01:33 AM 12/18/97 -0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>Well, they *do* have an expansion out every 6 months or so... oh. What?
>He was talking about D&D? Never mind...
>
>- Jerry
>
>Who dislikes *every* *STINKING* player taking a specialty kit... "I have
>double handed fighting style, so I can have matched scimitars!" Yeah,
>*real* original, pal...
>
>
hey, like there's a choice. . unlike hero system, in that
particular game people don't get to design their weapons. . *sigh*
primitives. . *j/k*
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 17 Dec 97 22:55:12 -0800
Subject: Green Hornet conversion
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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l > 2. The gas gun. The example of a gas attack in the rulebook is NND,
l > defense Life Support or holding breath. So far, I haven't found a
l > time when someone was able to hold their breath and avoid passing out
l > from the Hornet's gas, so NND wouldn't be appropriate here. Would
l > defense Life Support work, or should I bite the bullet and make it one
l > heck of a STUN Drain?
Actually, since the Hornet mostly faced normals, make it a Stun only
EB with a -1/4 lim: not vs life support. The fact that people will
get thier ED (up to what 8, maybe) is irrellevant - so the guy with
the high con isn't knocked out quite as bad. Try Knocking Out a
normal with an NND - you'll need at least 6 dice, probably 8 or
10 if you want to take down the tougher types... and they're supposed
to sleep for a while!
Now if he's going to be in a regular Champs game, you'll want to
go for the NND, don't worry about the breath-holding bit... LS
is an adequate defense...
l > 3. An obvious disad for the Hornet is Reputation 14-. However, in
l > as Britt Reid and might recognize me" in the dialogue. Buying
l > Reputation twice, once for Reid's reputation and once for the Hornet's,
l > like cheating. Would it be legit to buy Reputation once and have two
:You've got two ID's why not two reps? It's not that big a Disad, anyway.
l > different definitions of what the Reputation is?
l >
I'm sure you could
l > Thanks.
l >
l > Leah
l > ---
BTW, Kudo's for doing the Green Hornet... cool character.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
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Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 01:55:32 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Normal States
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At 04:50 PM 12/18/97 +1000, Michael Jones wrote:
>At 05:30 PM 12/18/97 -0800, Rick Holding wrote:
>>> Hows about an addition to 'always on', that being
>>> 'natural state'? same value (+1/2), would kinda
>>> cancel out always on and prevent tampering without a
>>> transform power being used. . .size is an easy one,
>>> but what happened to post-massacre pryde? got stuck in
>>> desolid form?
>>
>> Yep! Unless she concentrated, in which case she was solid until she
>>forgot to concentrate.
>
>hmm, that's more of a -1/4 always on. . . that REALLY sounds like
>an ffect that a power-supressor could cancel. ..
>
In what sense of "power-supressor?" I'm sure that Prof X tried to help her
mentally, and mutant power suppression techniques are used in the Marvel
Universe, but she still had this problem...
- Jerry
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editi
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 22:56:38 -0800
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On Wednesday, December 17, 1997 7:27 PM, Opal wrote:
<snip>
>
> t > Of course, if you just want straight normal HTH damage, the
conversion
> t > part isn't useful to you - so you can just take a No Range
Energy
> t > Blast or
> t > STR "only to deal damage".
>
>I also think that, once we have a good 5/d HA and the cost of AID
>has been doubled, we should see about making it a hard-and-fast
>rule that Characteristics just plain never go in Power Frameworks.
>(If you want that, buy Aid...)
Eewww. I'm not saying I disagree, but some concepts, power suits, for
example, can make that a kind of kludgey solution.
Filksinger
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 17 Dec 97 22:57:14 -0800
Subject: Re: Champions 5th editio
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On 12-16-97 redbf@ldd.net wrote to All...
r > Let me explain. I think 1DC should equal 1d6 normal dice and 1d6
r > killing dice. Obvioulsy the cost of Killing dice would still be 15pts
r > per die and the cost of normal dice would be 5 per die.
r > To compensate for the increased Killing dice the a characters body
r > would have to raised by a multiplication factor.
Sounds like what they did with Fuzion... this will make your
game very deadly... it also means that it's impossible to
design a character who can be KO'd but not killed.
r > It would be just as easy to convert 4th edition characters to my
r > system
r > as it would is to convert 4th edition to Fuzion
r >
r > This is just an idea. I just want to see what others think. Scott
r > Nolan
r > did bring up an idea that increasing the killing dice would get rid of
r > some of the randomness and I am still thinking about this.
r >
r > ---
r > * Origin: Usenet:Redbow Antiques (1:143/241.0)
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage o
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 23:00:44 -0800
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On Wednesday, December 17, 1997 7:29 PM, Opal wrote:
> F >
> F > Sorry for the misunderstanding... I should have said "GM should
then
> F > not allow
> F > the Linked Flash", after "deserves no points". In other words,
if
> F > you're not
> F > being limited by the Limitation, it's not worth any points, and
>
> F > shouldn't be
> F > allowed. My mistake.
> F >
> F > 'Lynx
>
>So what you're saying is that there is absolutely no legal
>construct that will allow a character to either fire an
>EB, fire a flash, or fire an identical, linked flash & EB
>at the same time? Because the fact that he has both a
>Flash & an EB renders the Linked Limitation 'not limiting'
>and it therefore can't be taken?
No, he's saying you should have to buy the EB, Flash, and Linked EB
and Flash all at the full cost. Therefore, the ability to link two
powers together or keep them separate at will costs exactly double
what the powers cost normally.
No way, Jose. They should definitely get the Linked on that; this
construct already costs too much.
Filksinger
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:06:32 +1000
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Normal States
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At 01:55 AM 12/18/97 -0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>In what sense of "power-supressor?" I'm sure that Prof X tried to help her
>mentally, and mutant power suppression techniques are used in the Marvel
>Universe, but she still had this problem...
>
well, i mean a drain or supress. A telepathy thing is not going to help,
unless it's the explanintion for points spent. .
>- Jerry
>
>
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 17 Dec 97 23:12:16 -0800
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage o
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t > And for some of the examples, especially the two seperate SFX, one
t > in each hand, there is a better way. If both are, say, EBs, or even
t > one is an EB and the other is a KA, buy as a slightly larger EB with a
t > mixed SFX. Cheaper than trying to link two (with it's greater effect
t > defenses) and about the same effect. Two 10d6 EBs, put together, do
t > not do 20d, they'd do 11d.
t > -Tim Gilberg
I know I've been on the other side of this one for the most part,
but what you're suggesting here is a useful construct... trying
to buy a number of attacks that can all go off together get's
hideously expensive for the effect you get out of it (because
the target gets his defense against each attack).
For instance if you wanted to do the Mandarin, you could give
him an 11-slot Multipower - 1 slot for each ring, and the
last a big EB for tossing them all at once...
Of course, it'd be cool to figure out a way to let him use
an autofire like mechanic to spray all 10 over an area and
have which ring hits what target randomly determined. :)
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 01:12:27 -0600 (CST)
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From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
Subject: Re: Gold Rush Games Mail
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At 01:15 AM 12/18/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< "You can't be Bruce Harlick, I heard he died...">>
>
> I can neither confirm nor deny the rumored report of Bruce Harlick's death.
>
> Mark @ GRG
What's the phrase, "A policy of implied denial."
Very X-Files of you...
Michael
Rising Force Publications
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 02:28:16 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
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At 04:54 PM 12/18/97 +1000, Michael Jones wrote:
>At 01:33 AM 12/18/97 -0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>>Well, they *do* have an expansion out every 6 months or so... oh. What?
>>He was talking about D&D? Never mind...
>>
>>- Jerry
>>
>>Who dislikes *every* *STINKING* player taking a specialty kit... "I have
>>double handed fighting style, so I can have matched scimitars!" Yeah,
>>*real* original, pal...
>
>hey, like there's a choice. . unlike hero system, in that
>particular game people don't get to design their weapons. . *sigh*
>primitives. . *j/k*
>
Heh.
There are choices, anyway... You can play a plain vanilla Fighter, or a
Fighter/Mage, or a Fighter/Thief... I don't see why *every* player has to
have a kit. And some of the kits are *really* common... Bladesinger, anyone?
- Jerry
X-Sender: nolan@pop.erols.com
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 02:34:46 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
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<x-rich>>>>Well, they *do* have an expansion out every 6 months or so... oh. What?
>>>He was talking about D&D? Never mind...
>>>
>>>Who dislikes *every* *STINKING* player taking a specialty kit... "I have
>>>double handed fighting style, so I can have matched scimitars!" Yeah,
>>>*real* original, pal...
>>
>>hey, like there's a choice. . unlike hero system, in that
>>particular game people don't get to design their weapons. . *sigh*
>>primitives. . *j/k*
>>
>Heh.
>There are choices, anyway... You can play a plain vanilla Fighter, or a
>Fighter/Mage, or a Fighter/Thief... I don't see why *every* player has to
>have a kit. And some of the kits are *really* common... Bladesinger, anyone?
To tie this back to HERO, this is -exactly- why I gave up AD&D and converted to Fantasy HERO three years ago. The former game had no game balance. People didn't choose the same kits because they were unimaginative: they chose them because they were more powerful.
AD&D and game balance don't even have a nodding acquaintance. HERO is balanced -and- flexible.
Scott
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.
<bold>William Ernest Henley</bold> - <italic>Invictus
</italic>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scott Nolan
nolan@erols.com
</x-rich>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:42:12 +1000
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
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At 02:28 AM 12/18/97 -0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>At 04:54 PM 12/18/97 +1000, Michael Jones wrote:
>>At 01:33 AM 12/18/97 -0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>>>Well, they *do* have an expansion out every 6 months or so... oh. What?
>>>He was talking about D&D? Never mind...
>>>
>>>- Jerry
>>>
>>>Who dislikes *every* *STINKING* player taking a specialty kit... "I have
>>>double handed fighting style, so I can have matched scimitars!" Yeah,
>>>*real* original, pal...
>>
>>hey, like there's a choice. . unlike hero system, in that
>>particular game people don't get to design their weapons. . *sigh*
>>primitives. . *j/k*
>>
>Heh.
>There are choices, anyway... You can play a plain vanilla Fighter, or a
>Fighter/Mage, or a Fighter/Thief... I don't see why *every* player has to
>have a kit. And some of the kits are *really* common... Bladesinger, anyone?
>
bladesingers bite really bad, worst overbalance kit ever,
and a classic example of how that efl book sucked.. .
. . . erm. . .especially compared to a
hero character with simmilar stats. . . i'll stop now. . .
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 17 Dec 97 23:44:00 -0800
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage o
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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f > 1) The second character has different SFX. Thus, if I have the second
f > character, a Drain vs SFX cannot affect both powers- they are
f > separate.
f >
I didn't mention F/X, I was assuming they were identical...
f > 2) The second power lacks cohesiveness. In order to promote character
f > write-ups where the powers all have some sort of connection,
f > explaining why one person has all of them. Elemental Control and
f > Multipower both had this as original justifications.
f >
f > Now, that doesn't mean you are wrong in thinking you also lose the
f > ability to link them at will. I have no opinion on this, save as a GM
f > ruling that I haven't had to make yet. But it does give reasons, and
f > the second, original reason existed before Linked and at a time when
f > two powers _officially_ could not be used together.
f >
f > Filksinger
Well, I haven't looked at my 1st Ed Champoins in a long time, but
I seem to remember, Linked, Multipower and EC all being there...
Or are you talking about the period when George McDonald was running
his home grown and as yet unpublished system?
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 01:48:54 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Needed: Mentalist Inspiration
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> But I don't actually want to be invisible. I want to be hard-to-see. I wanted
Same effect. Take a limitation on the invis to represent being
less than fully invisible.
> something with a gradual success/failure curve, with different amounts
> of effect on different viewers, not all or nothing. There are a few places in
> the Hero system that I think a new limitation for gradual decay of effects
> would be nice. Something like the old limitation on Entangle that it slowly
> faded away. That way one could buy a continuing charge area effect attack that
> slowly lost 1 DC per unit time.
So define a limitation to do just that to a mental SFX
invisibility and get your GM to give you a fair value for the lim. No
problem.
> I would love to do an empath, but there are no rules guidelines for this. I
> would like to 'influence' emotions, not override them completely like
> mind-control would do. Again, I want partial effects on folks with higher egos,
> not an abrupt point at which the power stops working. Or is this all covered in
> TUM as well?
I beleive it is in TUM, but it doesn't really matter. Just take
the various mental powers and define a Empathic-type workings, worth about
a -1/2 limitation. Influenceing emotions would be Mind Control, emotions
only. If you just wanted minor influence rather than full control, take a
smaller Mind Control. Telepathy with Emotions Only (-1/2 again) would
allow the reading and projecting of emotions. An Emotional Overload would
be an Ego Attack with the SFX being overpowering certain emotion centers
of the brain. (KOed with pleasure, anyone?)
-Tim Gilberg
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 17 Dec 97 23:50:02 -0800
Subject: Trigger and Ranged (Re:
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r > Nothing in there says a triggered power can't be ranged. It would be
r > absurd for it to. Doing that would prevent most uses of triggered
r > traps.
r > Like the old poison dart set off by a foot plate routine.
r >
r >
r > --
r > Rook
r >
Hmmm... you probably shouldn't quote quite that much out of the
BBB... though I understand that it was in a good cause :)
The Advantage does fail to mention how a ranged attack might
be targeted (what OCV do you use?). As to the rest of the
wierdness I said, it must have been an interpretation...
<really starting not to trust my own memory, thank you
for making me feel accutely disturbed>
<exit mumbling to myself...>
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
X-Sender: nolan@pop.erols.com
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 02:52:09 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: Invisible STR
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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<x-rich>>> Would a character need to buy Invisible STR if they were a
>> thirteen year old girl whose muscle mass or anatomy wasn't vastly different
>> than that of a normal human. (I'm not talking high NCM STR, I'm talking
>> super-Brick STR).
>
>
> I don't see why? It would still be obvious that she is using her
>STR when she exerts herself.
Right. It's not obvious from just looking at them that Clark Kent or Peter Parker are inhumanly strong, either, yet we don't buy Invisible STR for them.
Invisible STR is...telekinesis.
Scott
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.
<bold>William Ernest Henley</bold> - <italic>Invictus
</italic>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scott Nolan
nolan@erols.com
</x-rich>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 01:52:51 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Invisible STR
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> Would a character need to buy Invisible STR if they were a
> thirteen year old girl whose muscle mass or anatomy wasn't vastly different
> than that of a normal human. (I'm not talking high NCM STR, I'm talking
> super-Brick STR).
I don't see why? It would still be obvious that she is using her
STR when she exerts herself.
-Tim Gilberg
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 17 Dec 97 23:53:04 -0800
Subject: Invisible STR
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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On 12-17-97 RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu wrote to All...
> Would a character need to buy Invisible STR if they were a
> thirteen year old girl whose muscle mass or anatomy wasn't vastly
> different
> than that of a normal human. (I'm not talking high NCM STR, I'm
> talking
> super-Brick STR).
> ---
No. If she lifts up a car, everyone will be able to see it's
her doing it.... As a matter of fact, IPE on STR is one of
those things that hardly makes sense.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 01:56:57 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editi
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> Or, as I'd put it, it would mean that putting multiple attack Powers
> _in_ a Multipower isn't a total point crock. If they do rule that
> multiple attack Powers can't be used simultaneously by default,
> then having multiple such Powers in a Multipower would obviously
> have to be outlawed.
Not at all. Just a point savings that all characters get in some
form or another. Bricks get STR cheap, MAs get MA packages, others get
ECs and MPs. Plus, it encourages variety in powers. Otherwise, you will
see no one take more than one large EB, no matter if you can mix or not.
-Tim Gilberg
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 17 Dec 97 23:57:06 -0800
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editi
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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On 12-17-97 tbarrie@ibm.net wrote to All...
t > On 16 Dec 1997, Opal wrote:
t > > t > The system is considerably better balanced if you make
t > "combinable"
t > > t > the default, IMO.
t > >
t > > Well, it would mean that two attack powers bought outside of a
t > Multipower
t > > are something other than just a waste of points...
t >
t > Or, as I'd put it, it would mean that putting multiple attack Powers
t > _in_ a Multipower isn't a total point crock. If they do rule that
t > multiple attack Powers can't be used simultaneously by default,
t > then having multiple such Powers in a Multipower would obviously
t > have to be outlawed.
t > ---
Or manditory... that's what they did in Fuzion. If you buy more
than 1 attack power they automatically go into a Multipower, and
that's all multipowers are for (without GM permission).
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 01:58:38 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
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> And because it'a valid SFX, it's therefore necessary that it should be
> doable with Transform alone? If you're suggesting that disallowing point
> increases from Transform would make it impossible or even mildly difficult
> to build these effects, you're nuts.
Not impossible, but quite difficult. For one thing, figuring the
point split ratios would be a real bear. And the description of Transform
alone allows for the power. GM control people, learn and use the phrase.
-Tim Gilberg
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 18 Dec 97 00:02:08 -0800
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editio
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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On 12-17-97 Opal wrote to ghoyle1@airmail.net...
O > g > >Some people hate the Spirit rules, I rather like them. I would
O > g > >see them expanded upon, possibly as part of the "Incomplete
O > g > Character"
O > g > >rules, and cleaned up a bit.
O >
O > I definitely don't like the Spirit Rules, but the Incomplete Rules
O > do let you build Spirits that work similarly and are less balanced.
O >
O > ___
Arg! that should be 'more blanced' or 'less imbalancing'
This list is getting to active for me....
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 03:10:47 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
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cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Invisible STR
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> > I don't see why? It would still be obvious that she is using her
>
> >STR when she exerts herself.
>
>
> Right. It's not obvious from just looking at them that Clark Kent or Peter Parker are inhumanly strong, either, yet we don't buy Invisible STR for them.
>
>
> Invisible STR is...telekinesis.
Umm...no. That's strength at range.
TokyoMark
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 02:15:06 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Fifth Edition - Killing
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> The current dice rolling convention works well for KA's if
> you just look at average BOD & STN, the problem that needs
> to be fixed is the STN lotto.
Like I said last time. Use the Hit Locations chart for all
attacks, Killing and Normal. This lets both have a Stun Lotto, but makes
the extremes much less common.
Or just tone down the lotto by figuring Stun as 3 per die times
the Stun Multiple.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 02:17:16 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
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> There are choices, anyway... You can play a plain vanilla Fighter, or a
> Fighter/Mage, or a Fighter/Thief... I don't see why *every* player has to
> have a kit. And some of the kits are *really* common... Bladesinger, anyone?
Oh pa-shaw! The swashbuckler was the only way to go. No more
smelly and uncomfortable armor needed to be effective. I had a lot of fun
giving my character the most outrageous outfits.
-Tim Gilberg
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 03:41:26 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
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At 05:42 PM 12/18/97 +1000, Michael Jones wrote:
>bladesingers bite really bad, worst overbalance kit ever,
>and a classic example of how that efl book sucked.. .
>. . . erm. . .especially compared to a
>hero character with simmilar stats. . . i'll stop now. . .
>
Um, yeah. Me too.
: )
Sorry, everyone.
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 03:45:17 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Invisible STR
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At 02:52 AM 12/18/97 -0500, Scott Nolan wrote:
>> I don't see why? It would still be obvious that she is using her
>>STR when she exerts herself.
>
>Right. It's not obvious from just looking at them that Clark Kent or Peter
>Parker are inhumanly strong, either, yet we don't buy Invisible STR for
them.
>
And it isn't obvious that Clark Kent can shoot heat out of his eyes just
from looking at him, and that's not IPE.
(Of course, we're both ignoring the current Blueperman, who doesn't have
*either* of these abilities... : )
>Invisible STR is...telekinesis.
>
Well, that's just one SFX, although I can't think of any others.
Just remember, STR IPE can be Telekinesis, but Telekinesis is not STR IPE.
Or something. Okay, it's not STR Ranged. Whichever.
- Jerry
Tactile Telekinesis? Superboy has that...
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 03:50:52 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
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Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>> There are choices, anyway... You can play a plain vanilla Fighter, or a
>> Fighter/Mage, or a Fighter/Thief... I don't see why *every* player has to
>> have a kit. And some of the kits are *really* common... Bladesinger,
anyone?
>
> Oh pa-shaw! The swashbuckler was the only way to go. No more
>smelly and uncomfortable armor needed to be effective. I had a lot of fun
>giving my character the most outrageous outfits.
>
I wrote up a swashbuckler once... they're a Rogue kit, right? Or is it
Thief... I never got to play him, either, and he probably wouldn't've done
well in the group I was hanging with.
My big objection to the kits was, well... I just don't like 'em? No,
sorry. It was that they were too common. Everyone got 'em, and most
didn't *need* them.
Anyway.
Aren't you the guy who wanted Pirate Hero? lol
- Jerry
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 18 Dec 97 00:57:10 -0800
Subject: Revised Hand Attack
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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HTH Attack
Hand-to-Hand (normal) Attack: A character with this Standard
Power can increase the amount of normal damage he does in
hand-to-hand combat. For 5 Character Points, the character
can buy +1d6 HA. The HA must be defined as physical or energy, normal
or stun-only. Strength adds directly to the damage of any
type of HA just as it does with a hand-to-hand killing attack - no
more than doubling the DCs of the attack. Alternately a small HA can
be added directly to STR damage with any kind of striking maneuver as
long as the HA is defined as doing normal physical damage with no
advantages that would have to be extended to strength.
Though it cannot be 'spread' in the manner of an Energy
Blast, an HA can be manipulated to improve OCV at the price of damage.
Each 1d6 of damage sacrificed gives a +1 OCV. Likewise, the
power of an HA can be used to Block an opponent's attack. The
character is considered armed and has a +1 OCV per 3d6 of HA
employed. If the character does not want to be able to trade
damage for OCV, he can take the -1/4 'Beam' limitation.
Hand-to-Hand Attack cost: +1d6 HA per 5 Apts, minimum cost
10pts.
Examples:
SuperCop wants a simple billy club. He buys:
4d HAp, 0 END, OAF, Beam: always +1 OCV & +3d -1/4,
Apts 30, Rpts 13
SuperCop has a 25 STR, but since the 0 END on the
billy club doesn't extend to STR, he just adds
the two together. He does 8d normal with a +1 OCV
whenever he uses his billy club.
Martial Marauder want's some nifty Chi
powers and special attacks. He has
a 20 STR & Martial Arts including +2d
& +4d Manuevers. He buys:
30 Multipower
3 u Chi Bolt: 4d HAp, Ranged, 8d w/STR & Manuevers..
3 u Chi Blow: 6d HAp, 10d w/STR, 12d w/Martial Strike
up to the GM whether he wants to let it work with
the offensive strike for 14d....
3 u Blazing Chi Blow: 6d HAe, 10d w/STR, 12d w/Martial Strike
still 12d w/Offensive STR since it makes damage energy...
3 u Knife-hand: 2d HKAp, 3d+1 w/STR, 3.5d w/MS, 4d w/OS
(assuming the bit about manuevers being halved w/KAs)
3 u Lightning Strike: 4d HAp, Invisible 8d w/Martial Strike
MM didn't think to take beam on any of his attacks, so
he can technically trade dice for OCV - he probably won't
as a general rule. He does like the idea of using his
Chi Blow, as a Chi Block for +3 OCV...
Opal is an alien with energy manipulation powers,
she wants to extend her forcefield as an attack
to add to her 30 STR she buys:
10 2d HAp (only useable when FF is up -0 to
avoid linked debates)
Since her OCV is only 7 ("I can only hit Foxbat on
a 10 or less? what's wrong with me?") she often
uses it for the +2 OCV...
Realizing that this attack is nearly worthless
against supers she builds a 'Kinetic Attack':
35 5d HAp, Double KB +3/4, 1/2 END, Beam -1/4
8d w/ STR (43 Apts)
Eventually, her GM realizes that this exceded
the 60 Apt cap (8d 2xKB = 70 Apts...)
Desperate to actually put STN on her
opponents, Opal takes her 'extended
forcefiled attack' and beefs it up,
changing it to an energy attack:
30 6d HAe 12d w/STR
Since the attack is an energy field
she can shape as she desires, she's
comfortable with the idea of getting
an OCV bonus if she wants, so she
doesn't take beam - in fact she
jots down some standard 'forms' :
'whip' +3 OCV 9d w/STR
'mace' 12d w/STR
'shield' +2 OCV w/Block
___
* OFFLINE 1.58 * I am not a Rules Lawyer...I'm a Rules Activist.
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 04:00:17 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Revised Hand Attack
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Opal wrote:
>Examples:
>
>SuperCop wants a simple billy club. He buys:
>
>4d HAp, 0 END, OAF, Beam: always +1 OCV & +3d -1/4,
>Apts 30, Rpts 13
>
>SuperCop has a 25 STR, but since the 0 END on the
>billy club doesn't extend to STR, he just adds
>the two together. He does 8d normal with a +1 OCV
>whenever he uses his billy club.
>
So, you would give an *additional* point break to the OCV level? As it
stands now, if I want a +1 OCV w/ a weapon it would cost 5 points, usually
with a -1 OAF lim. You're giving it a -1 1/4 for no reason (IMO)...
>Martial Marauder want's some nifty Chi
>powers and special attacks. He has
>a 20 STR & Martial Arts including +2d
>& +4d Manuevers. He buys:
>
>30 Multipower
> 3 u Chi Bolt: 4d HAp, Ranged, 8d w/STR & Manuevers..
I guess I shouldn't get too upset with this, actually, since I would allow
Ranged on an HKA... but my first impression was to say no. Weird, huh?
> 3 u Chi Blow: 6d HAp, 10d w/STR, 12d w/Martial Strike
> up to the GM whether he wants to let it work with
> the offensive strike for 14d....
> 3 u Blazing Chi Blow: 6d HAe, 10d w/STR, 12d w/Martial Strike
> still 12d w/Offensive STR since it makes damage energy...
And why is that? I didn't notice anything about a difference in physical
and energy in the first part of the post...
>10 2d HAp (only useable when FF is up -0 to
> avoid linked debates)
>
lol... I'd still only give it a -1/4. <ducks>
>Since her OCV is only 7 ("I can only hit Foxbat on
>a 10 or less? what's wrong with me?") she often
>uses it for the +2 OCV...
>
And she can only hit Biff the Wonder Dog on a 9- (according to the panels
at the beginning of Champs II where Foxbat was complaining about his CV).
>Realizing that this attack is nearly worthless
>against supers she builds a 'Kinetic Attack':
>
>35 5d HAp, Double KB +3/4, 1/2 END, Beam -1/4
> 8d w/ STR (43 Apts)
>
>Eventually, her GM realizes that this exceded
>the 60 Apt cap (8d 2xKB = 70 Apts...)
>
I did the same thing with one of the PCs in my campaign... I let him keep it.
Good post, tho.
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 04:02:30 -0500
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage o
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At 11:44 PM 12/17/97 -0800, Opal wrote:
> f > 1) The second character has different SFX. Thus, if I have the second
> f > character, a Drain vs SFX cannot affect both powers- they are
> f > separate.
> f >
>
>I didn't mention F/X, I was assuming they were identical...
>
Then why *wouldn't* you put it in a MP? That's the reason those are
there... point breaks for "strong character designs" or somesuch...
>Well, I haven't looked at my 1st Ed Champoins in a long time, but
>I seem to remember, Linked, Multipower and EC all being there...
>
>Or are you talking about the period when George McDonald was running
>his home grown and as yet unpublished system?
>
I thought "Linked" was based on "Based On" from the Revised Edition?
- Jerry
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 02:09:47 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Regeneration of Limbs, and Body Parts
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Vance Scott wrote:
>
> The term regeneration itself refers to the regrowth of lost body
> parts.
But, as your subsequent remarks make clear, you misinterpret your source
on what this means. "Body parts" need not comprise whole organs: the
Encyclopaedia Britannica [14th Ed., vol 19 p.64] cites examples of
regeneration in Mammalia to include, "The change of hair, of teeth and of
Red Blood Cells." It also goes on to note that, "Reparative regeneration
... is limited to tissues such as bone, muscle, skin or peripheral
nerves."
Thus, all repair processes that involve replacing lost or necrotized
tissue may properly be termed regeneration. In fact, this usage is not
limited to dry academics: note that "Regenerators" in Star Trek are used
to hasten all manner of repairs, but they didn't use one to replace
Piccard's heart -- he got an artificial implant.
> The Regenerate power
> is over priced in comparison to Aid.
Surely, you mean, "underpriced?" Aids have upper limits to the amount of
damage that they can cure: 6 points per die plus any extra points bought.
Once a point of BODY is Aided, that Aid counts against the maximum of any
Aid to BODY until the BODY would have healed naturally. This is a
vitally (no pun intended) important distinction when characters are
getting near death, since 6 or 12 points of Aid (3 or 6 points of BODY)
may not be enough to bring them back to positive.
Regeneration is unlimited. To simulate Regeneration as an Aid, you would
have to buy something like
25 1D6 Aid + 30 max, with a fixed roll of 2 (+0 SFX).
0 END/Persistent(+1) Uncontrolled(+1/2) [50 active]
Extra Time/turn(-1)
and that doesn't even quite do it, since the Regeneration has *no* upper
limit, but I concede that few characters take more than 36 BODY per
month.
In fact, I find that even a minimum buy of Regeneration Usable on Others
tends to severely blunt PC's duty to protect innocents -- in practice it
takes a DC 15 attack to kill even a normal outright, and few battles last
long enough for the bystanders to bleed to death by standard rules. Once
the battle is over, Aid/BODY and/or Regeneration will keep the
bystanders alive until someone can make a Paramedic roll to stop the
bleeding, then it takes about two minutes per person to Regenerate a
normal back to full health.
> Allow regeneration to be
> regeneration instead of an accelerated healing power.
But that is exactly how the power is *described* in the book, and that is
exactly what Regeneration, in broadest bio-medical usage, means.
Moreover, I find that Regeneration is quite powerful enough, and well
worth the points spent, without the ability to replace lost limbs for
free added on.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 06:05:57 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Everybody was Drunk Fu Fightin'...
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On Thu, 18 Dec 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
> At 11:18 PM 12/17/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> >On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
> >
> >> VERY nice! Thank you! Now, would you hold a Drunken Fighter to the -2
> >> OCV/-2 DCV for being drunk listed in Ninja Hero?
> >
> >Nope.
> >
> Even if you had the other PCs take it? Would the DF pay for this ability?
> John Prins suggested Immunity to alcohol...
It doesn't make sense to penalize a character for something that his Aid
powers (if you use John Prins' power suggestion) requires him to do
(which is get drunk). Yeah, if pressed on this fact by the GM, the
character should by the Immunity.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 06:53:24 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...
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At 12:28 PM 12/18/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
> To be frank, it sounds like there was more disappointment in Hero Games
> than there was in Fuzion, per se'. Am I wrong in this assessment?
For my own part (which as far as the original Fuzion mess goes seems to have
been a very large part), I never claimed to dislike Fuzion. I disliked
[name blocked to protect the innocent]'s *attitude* about Fuzion, and about
HERO gamers, roughly summed up by "it cures cancer!" and "you don't agree
with me? Well, you're not the target audience ... but buy the game anyway"
respectively.
On one hand, it's perfectly defensible for a game designer to be enamored of
and enthusiastic about his product (just get me going on "Plastic Patrol"
some time). But on the other hand, once the gaming community has examined
Fuzion and determined it's not HERO (and "compatible" is irrelevant), then
any further commentary from the company becomes Off Topic Spam.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good |
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) |
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X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 06:53:28 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...
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At 01:29 PM 12/18/97 -0600, Sparx wrote:
>Well, yes it is irrational, but it is also loyalty and "rabidness" that
>makes a game survive. If I or others were to just toss away any game for
>the next newer and slicker one that came out, you'd fine it very hard to
>keep up wouldn't you? It is customer loyalty to one game that makes it
>possible for games to survive and grow.
Yeah, I think this is the crux of the matter. Hero Games says "We're sorry,
but you're just not a big enough market to sustain us."; the HERO gamers'
natural is, "Well, we got you THIS far, didn't we?"
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good |
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) |
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Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 06:53:31 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: So What Now?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 04:39 PM 12/18/97 -0500, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>only added very minor, obscure rules points. Champs IS the only 'complete'
>multi-genre roleplaying game that comes in ONE book (GURPS is spread across
>several), and HERO _has_ to capitalize on that.
Well, and to be honest, GURPS doesn't even TRY to be truly universal
anymore. The line editor (Sean "Doc Kromm" Punch) has officially redefined
"universal" from "portrays any universe" to "portrays multiple universes"
(which is something of a cop-out, really).
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good |
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) |
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Slipperiness
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 04:54:28 -0800
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On Wednesday, December 17, 1997 10:10 PM, Brian Wong wrote:
<snip>
> I think we're all going about this the wrong way.
>We're looking at 'slipperness' from a special effects point of view.
> But what about from a mechanics point of view?
>
>What is it we desire?
> We need a power that forces a stat-roll every time any action
>is attempted which has a connection to that stat, and a method of
making
>that roll harder to achieve.
>
> Personally, I can see reasons for even having
>
>mental-slicks, or pre-slicks, and I'm sure if I thought about it I
>could find a com-slick.
>
> Next is needed a way to break out of the powers hold.
>
>Drain would be great for the penalizing the roll portion, but it
fails to
>do the 'force the roll on every related action' portion.
>
> Which is why I feel all of this needs a new power.
Well, if we used DEX Suppress with the Negative Characteristic rules,
then a sufficiently powerful Suppress would force DEX rolls. People
with higher DEXs wouldn't need to make rolls, but any roll they did
have to make would be reduced, due to the slipperiness of the surface
they were on.
However, I would have no objection to an Interference power.
Filksinger
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage o
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 05:24:37 -0800
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On Wednesday, December 17, 1997 11:24 PM, Opal wrote:
> f > 1) The second character has different SFX. Thus, if I have the
second
> f > character, a Drain vs SFX cannot affect both powers- they are
> f > separate.
> f >
>
>I didn't mention F/X, I was assuming they were identical...
Perhaps. However, if they are identical, get Multipower or Elemental
Control. To do otherwise is bad design.
<snip>
>Well, I haven't looked at my 1st Ed Champoins in a long time, but
>I seem to remember, Linked, Multipower and EC all being there...
>
>
>Or are you talking about the period when George McDonald was running
>his home grown and as yet unpublished system?
Hmmm. I thought that linked was added in the Champions 3 book, or at
least 3rd Ed. I could be wrong, of course.
Filksinger
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 07:53:40 -0600
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net
Organization: Redbow Antiques
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
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GoldRushG wrote:
>
> Like I said, it's normal for a publisher to be enthused about its newest product. And if Steve was touting the fact that it is compatible with Hero System, so what? It is. I still don't see why so many people get so darned emotional over this whole Fuzion thing. Hero System is not dead and we have a number of 4th Ed books lined up for release next year, so that whole issue is water under the bridge. So again I wonder, why the fuss over Fuzion?
>
> Mark @ GRG
Why? For the same reason a wife would get jealous of her husband
spending time with another woman. Oh, it may not mean anything right
now, but the hint is there.
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 97 13:55:47 GMT
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Stephen McGinness)
Subject: Re: TUSV: Slipperiness
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At 04:54 AM 18/12/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>>Well, if we used DEX Suppress with the Negative Characteristic rules,
>then a sufficiently powerful Suppress would force DEX rolls. People
>with higher DEXs wouldn't need to make rolls, but any roll they did
>have to make would be reduced, due to the slipperiness of the surface
>they were on.
The problem with this sort of thing is that people with high POW Def but no
flight would be unaffected, and people with no POW Def and flight would be!!
Doesn't fit the effects you want to achieve.
I'd be inclined to use a power that like NND has a couple of common defences
that can be named, perhaps even a NND Dex Suppress, with defences being
flight, spiked boots, high friction surface, and Skating.
>However, I would have no objection to an Interference power.
obviously something that isn't a kludge would be welcome, but it would have
to keep the defences in mind.
>Filksinger
>
Stephen
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editio
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 97 08:57:00 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
cc: <champ-l@omg.org>
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On 12/17/97 8:22 PM, happyelf (jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au) Said:
>Who the heck are marksman and fare 1st dn 2nd ed characters?
>I actually HAVE an australian baddie called flare, but he's not
>the same kind of super. . .
They were the in th Champions in Editions 1-3, I believe...
| David A. Fair
Think Different | SDS International
| dfair@sdslink.com
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 06:02:23 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions
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At 08:03 PM 12/17/97 -0800, Opal wrote:
> b > - Extra Limbs should go back to having a cost per limb. My own
> b > structure is 5 points for two arms, with reduced costs for lesser
> b > (3 points for one arm, 3 for a pair of tentacles, 1 for a single
> b > or prehensile tail).
>
>Do you get OCV bonuses like the old version?
Absolutely not. Those should be bought as CSLs.
>I still think there should be the cheapie 5pt for any number version...
>just so the Millitant Millipede doesn't cost 1000 points (at 1 per
>limb) :)
As I've said, I just have a problem with the idea of 100 arms costing
the same as having a prehensile tail.
I've proposed a different cost structure (which I personally like just a
little better, BTW) which gives a character 2X limbs for +5 points, and
provides appropriate Limitations for the limbs being tentacles and such. I
haven't gotten any feedback on whether that works for most folks though.
If that's too expensive, maybe 2 points per 2X limbs would work.
> b > - Flash, as mentioned elsewhere, should be 5 points per die, with
> b > BODY pip of Flash working for 1 segment. (It makes Flash Defense more
> b > balanced.)
>
>Or, you can leave the cost the same, and count pips as segments...
>works out similar to the current way. I only have two problems
>with the idea: 1) High SPD characters can recover stun and such
>quicker, why not recover from Flash quicker too, and 2) Flash
>DEF is balanced, because Flash is so powerful... get Flashed
>for even 1 phase in a pitched battle and you can be in BIG
>trouble.. the DEF really has to be able to completely negate
>the attack to be useful.
You know, I'd never really considered the relative utility of Flash
Defense before you pointed it out... but OTOH it's extremely easy to become
virtually impervious to Flashes. And Flashes to other Sense Groups are not
quite as useful (though I do have villains who can Flash Hearing, Mental,
Radio, and even Smell Sense Groups).
> b > - Instant Change should be scaled. (My scale is 5 pts = instant, 4
> b > = half Phase, 3 pts = Phase, 2 pts = Turn, 1 pt = minute, normal = 5
> b > minutes, with all costs doubled for "any clothing.")
> b > - Life Support should have some of its elements able to be broken
> b > down
> b > even further, like 2 points for being immune to *either* heat *or*
> b > cold.
> b > Also, 1-2 points for retarded aging is a cool idea.
>
>The obvious, LS: Heat not Cold -1, ends up too cheap doesn't it.
>Good idea.
Even if the Limitation is declared at -1/2, it's common enough and
simple enough to do that I think it's warranted.
> b > - Shrinking should include a "proportional STR" Limitation, say
> b > -1/4.
>
>I've linked negative, doesn't add to fig char STR to Shrinking before...
>
>I wonder if that's legal?
A negative characteristic, with no fig? I'd call that *very* illegal.
Especially STR (second only to CON as something abusive to do).
> b > - Swinging should be specifically described as movement per Phase,
> b > not movement per swing.
>
>Swining and Gliding should both be Limited Flight.
That would work too. Neither is so common nor so different from Flight
that they really warrant separate Powers.
It's entirely probable, though, that they'll be kept around just to make
it easier to bring characters forward.
>Heck, all movement powers should be limited 'Movement' :)
>(Except Teleport, it would be Indirect Movement)
I don't know that I'd go for that. (Maybe in the 6th Edition.)
> b > - Armor Piercing should be purchasable so that it can do more than
> b > halve the target's defenses. However, I do see why this was stopped
> b > ed. I'd recommend charging an extra +1/4 for each level higher that
> b > Armor Piercing can go (+1 1/4 to quarter defenses, +2 1/4 to reduce to
> b > one-eighth, etc.).
>
>I wouldn't really have a problem with it at +1/2... successive halving
>are less effective after all... the only problem is that this really
>escalates the AP-Hardening arms race.
See my comment to Tim re: the ability of a 60 Active Point Power, 3AP.
> b > - Explosion should be +3/4 so it doesn't cost the same as AE: One
> b > (The old method of making AE: One Hex cost +1/4 wouldn't work, because
> b > it would hit the proverbial floor if it's Nonselective.) The
>
>I think Explosion and AE: Hex are balanced - Explosion is really
>only useful against serious oponents in center hex, and it does
>a lot of collateral damage.
It's also really really useful against a batch of agents.
> b > - Damage Shield should be clarified so that *any* significant
> b > contact,
> b > including the character with DS making an attack against the target,
> b > will
> b > cause damage.
>
>That would make it considerably more powerful... have to raise
>the Adv level too.
See, that's the point, and that's why I said "clarified." Many of us
don't think that would make it more powerful at all because that's how it
already works, it just doesn't say so clearly enough.
> b > - Reduced END should be half END for +1/4, 1 END for +1/2, 0 END
> b > for +3/4, and Persistent for +1.
> b >
>
>Why? For the detail of 1 END? How much would a 0 END power cost
>to be made persistent +1/4 or +1/2?
To the first pair of questions, yes; I don't understand the last
question though.
> b > - Always On should have a variation where certain Limitations (END
> b > Cost, Focus, etc.) represent how the Power is turned off with an effort
>
>Variable Limitation doesn't fit the bill on this?
I could, a little awkwardly. Just earlier this year I saw my first PC
with Variable Limitation (Holo, a new member of the Justifiers, who should
be on board when I next update my website next month). It's just a tad
awkward; plus it doesn't cover instances where the Limitation to keep it
off is more than Always On, or when keeping it off costs the normal END
amount.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 06:05:15 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 04:18 PM 12/17/97 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>> You were pointing out how AE becomes quickly more effective with its 2X
>> radius per +1/4 Advantage vs Explosions +1" radius per +1/4 Advantage.
>> Some time ago, someone pointed out that Explosions with 2X radius per +1/4
>> eventually becomes much more effective than AE at the same level. I was
>> curious to see if one of the list's resident number-crunchers could do the
>> numbers to see if adding +1/4 to the cost of Explosion (and 2X radius per
>> +1/4) would make it more equitable.
>
><shrug> I'm not surely exactly what numbers you're requesting, but surely
>adding another +1/4 would only mean a minor change in _when_ Explosions
>become more effective?
Yes, certainly. However, as I pointed out with stacked Armor Piercing,
there comes a point of diminishing returns, where one would have to spend a
preposterous number of Active Points to get any decent damage at all with
the Advantage, even in a game that does huge amounts of damage normally.
If the "crossing point" is in that range (say 120-150 APs or more), then I
think we may have a winner.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 06:06:02 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Flash Defense
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At 10:02 PM 12/17/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>>And wouldn't a wall be able to
>>provide Sight Flash Def just by being opaque?
>
>No. Sight Flash Defense allows you to see without being blinded by
>Flash. With the ability you mention, you can't see. You could get the
>same defense by going into combat with your eyes closed.
Hey, half the PCs I've seen do that anyway... ;-]
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 06:07:17 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
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At 12:02 AM 12/18/97 +0000, Brian Wong wrote:
>> >> > Depends on what is being worn, but 20 seconds isn't unreasonably
>> >> >fast. Of course, your finishing the various buttenings and such while
>> >> >heading back to the stage.
>> >>
>> >> With help, yes. I've tried fast-dressing, and my record is 3 minutes
>> >> (and that was before my current physical problems started setting
in). I'd
>> >> call it 5 for a good fit on the time Chart.
>> >
> Anyone just of out military basic training can tell you that
>is humanly possible to go from being totally asleep to dressed, shaved,
>showered, bed made in perfect tight fitness, boots shined, and down a flight
>of stairs and then lined up in perfect formation in under 3 minutes total.
> Cause if you didn't, they just made you run back up and repeat it
>all until you did. :)
> Course, I haven't been able to repeat it since, Though I used to
>be able to be out the door in 10 minutes.
I would call this an application of Instant Change for normals. (You
know, like the "non-powered Powers" from Dark Champs?)
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 06:13:31 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Dead Duplicates
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At 10:18 PM 12/17/97 -0800, Opal wrote:
> b > >DUPLICATION: one heals a lost duplicate as if the points were BODY or
> b > >define a given circumstance to get the dead duplicate back... you
> b > >lose points for having a duplicate killed any more
> b >
> b > Good idea. Permanently dead Duplicates should take a Limitation.
>
>Dead is Dead. Would you let a dead character heal back? :)
>In my book, losing the points you paid for a duplicate beats
>being dead...
Here's an idea.
I've mentioned before that I allow a +1/4 Advantage to REC, Healing Aid
(or BODY Aid for that matter), and Regeneration to allow a character to
heal back severed limbs.
Now, a dead duplicate isn't actually a dead character; it's a dead
*part* of a character. So what if that +1/4 Advantage could be somehow
applied to allow the character to recover lost Duplicates?
Personally, I'd just make it a +1/4 Advantage to the above abilities,
related to but separate from the "Recovers Limbs" Advantage. Other
opinions and points would be valid though (because I'm just writing off the
top of my head and haven't really thought this over thoroughly, as with
much of the stuff I post to the list).
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 97 14:13:44 GMT
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Stephen McGinness)
Subject: Re: Needed: Mentalist Inspiration
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At 05:39 PM 17/12/97 +0000, Stirling Westrup wrote:
>> > Mental Invisibility.
>But I don't actually want to be invisible. I want to be hard-to-see. I wanted
>something with a gradual success/failure curve, with different amounts
>of effect on different viewers, not all or nothing. There are a few places in
>the Hero system that I think a new limitation for gradual decay of effects
>would be nice. Something like the old limitation on Entangle that it slowly
>faded away. That way one could buy a continuing charge area effect attack that
>slowly lost 1 DC per unit time.
Like Tim my initial reaction would be to go with Invisibility, that is after
all what you are striving for, alwyas remembering the limitation that
cameras, closed circuit TVs etc are not affected by the power at all,
perhaps not even robots that have no sentience. However, on reading your
reply I'm sure that someone had an idea of doing this using superstealth,
buy up the skill until it is 30 or less and then give the skill modifiers
based on peoples EGO Def and whatever else you think. Again this would
attract limitations (dodgy putting limitations on skills but htis _is_
justified), e.g., not versus cameras etc, limited by EGO powers of opponents.
This would give you that gradual curve but still allow you to walk where you
should not and not be seen, probably......
> Stirling Westrup | Use of the Internet by this poster
> sti@cam.org | is not to be construed as a tacit
> | endorsement of Western Technological
> | Civilization or its appurtenances.
Stephen
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 06:21:29 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: National Super Teams
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 11:22 AM 12/18/97 +1000, happyelf wrote:
>PS: My national super team can kick your national super team any day *l*
*j/k*
Without even seeing what Phase II is like (they've never been published;
Champions Down Under has never been more than a suggestion), there's little
doubt that they (or any other national superteam, like the Sentinels and
the New Knights) could beat the stuffing out of Executive Sanction. But I
gather they concentrate less on pitched battle (leaving that to PRIMUS) and
concentrate on investigation and such things.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 06:25:36 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Gold Rush Games Mail
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 01:15 AM 12/18/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< "You can't be Bruce Harlick, I heard he died...">>
>
> I can neither confirm nor deny the rumored report of Bruce Harlick's death.
Next you'll be saying tha tyou can neither confirm nor deny your ability
to confirm or deny and confirmation or denial. ;-]
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:25:49 -0500
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org>
Subject: Invisible STR
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> No. If she lifts up a car, everyone will be able to see it's
> her doing it.... As a matter of fact, IPE on STR is one of
> those things that hardly makes sense.
Ninja Hero suggests it as a way of simulating martial artists who strike
faster than the eye can see; however, it still doesn't make much sense for
"constant" uses of STR.
Geoff Speare
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:27:13 -0500
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org>
Subject: Slipperiness
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> Another oddity with Sliperiness is that such a surface can end
> up getting you moving faster... the fastest Speed Skaters go
> faster than the fastest Sprinters don't they?
Just take whatever vector-based movement rules you use for movement in
zero-gravity and modify them slightly. :-)
Geoff Speare
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 06:40:30 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Slipperiness
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 02:01 PM 12/17/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>> OK, so if we take the row for "Stone" as a pattern and apply -2
>BODY for
>>every 1/2X thickness, and apply the Transform only to the top 125mm,
>that's
>>8 BODY. Does that work for everyone here?
>
>Well, that does make it harder to create a slippery surface on a
>sidewalk than on ordinary dirt.
I don't see why. The higher DEF wouldn't affect the Transform, and from
what I can see sidewalk has the same BODY as dirt.
>I suggest that you determine a good BODY for a sheet of ice covering
>one hex (not necessarily the correct BODY, but one good for game
>mechanics), and just use the creation version of Transformation. Then
>it doesn't normally matter _what_ surface you are on.
This might actually work.
Any suggestions?
Comments: Authenticated sender is <b1tlbx98@pop1.sympatico.ca>
From: "Vance Scott" <b1tlbx98@pop1.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:40:34 -500
Subject: Re: Regeneration of Limbs, and Body Parts
Reply-to: vances@sympatico.ca
Priority: normal
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The term regeneration itself refers to the regrowth of lost body
parts. Losing a limb to disabling is an optional rule, and not part
of the core rules. It's relatively easy to understand that
there isn't any reference to regrowing limbs in the regeneration
discription since characters don't lose limbs. A lost limb caused by
a transform attack can be restored by recovering the body of the, or
applying the cure for that particular transform. The Regenerate power
is over priced in comparison to Aid. Allow regeneration to be
regeneration instead of an accelerated healing power.
Regenerate vrb 1: to subject to spiritual renewal 2: to reform
completely 3: to replace (a body part) by a new growth of tissue 4:
to give new life to: Revive ...
excerpt from Websters' New Complete Dictionary
Vance Scott
Vanquisher of all foes
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 06:42:41 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Slipperiness
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At 05:43 PM 12/18/97 -0800, Rick Holding wrote:
>> I suggest that you determine a good BODY for a sheet of ice covering
>> one hex (not necessarily the correct BODY, but one good for game
>> mechanics), and just use the creation version of Transformation. Then
>> it doesn't normally matter _what_ surface you are on.
>>
>> Filksinger Call it 5 body for a nice round number. This would require a
2D6 major
>transform (30 points) for success most of the time. And in the case of a
>vehicle, make it AoE line x" where x is the number of inches of movement the
>vehicle has.
'Scuze me, *I'm* the one doing the book, not Filksinger.
And 5 is much too low. For one thing, I'm calling it Minor, not Major;
30 points would be 3d6, which would be almost guaranteed success (some 95%
on the first try).
I'd lean a little more toward 10-12 BODY.
Subject: Incomplete Characters [Long]
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 97 09:56:23 -0500
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From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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Many people mentioned these rules in the discussion of a hypothetical 5th Ed. Since I had never seen them, I checked out Opal's page. In it he says:
>The effects of lacking a
>given characteristic or set of characteristics must be defined.
>These rules are still under construction, like so much on the Web. If
>you have any suggestions on possible improvements, e-mail them to me at
>jimalj@best.com.. Especially, I am looking for help with Lacks
>Dexterity, Lacks Speed, and Lacks Endurance.
Since I liked the rules he had posted there so much, and since many here expressed their appreciation of them as well, I thought I would see if we could hammer together some thoughts on DEX, SPD, End & maybe more. I hope you don't mind, Opal.
So, for intro, in case you have not seen it here is an explanation of incomplete characters:
>Incomplete characters are those which lack one or more characteristics.
>The reasons for this vary by special effect. For example, a character
>might lack a stun score because it is a robot, or because it is an alien
>which does not feel pain or go into shock from injuries. It does not
>cost points to lack a characteristic, nor does it give you points: the
>creator just crosses it off the sheet. Though it may lack the
>characteristic, the incomplete character may buy it back as a power,
>generally with limitations and not providing figured characteristics. If
>this last option is used, however, you should look over the character
>very carefully, and see if a complete character can be made to suit your
>needs. The effects of lacking characteristics are as follows:
>From this point on I will only quote the stuff I have thoughts on, everything I leave out, I thought was great just the way it was.
>Lacks Dexterity: The character cannot react in a normal fashion to the
>physical world. If it has an Ego score, mental powers still work at that
>time, but movement and physical powers can only be used as follows: The
>player declares at the top of the phase any physical actions the
>character will take. These actually take place at the bottom of the
>phase, so everyone may react to those actions and, most likely, avoid
>any damage they would cause. If any attacks become possible, they are
>done with a 0 OCV. Mental powers which would abort the physical action,
>such as attacks or powers that require a full phase, cannot be used at
>Ego.
I would mention something here about the fact that any coordinated or planned movement is impossible; This character would not be able to break out of an entangle or grab, frex, due to the fact that they would be unable to focus their strength adequately.
>Lacks Speed: The character never takes any action. It cannot activate
>powers, so only powers which are persistent function. Obviously, this is
>not a playable character, but could be a base, for example.
I would add: It cannot move, talk, think, or _do_ anything, whether it would require a power/skill/talent or Char, unless those capabilities were bought as persistant.
Would this character get Recoveries, and if so, How Often? What if it had Regeneration? I'm thinking of a base that is self-repairing of damage, would you need to buy the repairing functions as a different entity, or would buying Persistant REC/Persistant Regeneration work?
>Lacks Endurance: The character has no natural reserve of energy. It
>cannot use stun as endurance, and may not push. It must buy all powers
>at 0 END or off of END reserves.
I would add: It cannot move, talk, think, or _do_ anything, whether it would require a power/skill/talent or Char, unless those capabilities were bought as 0 END.
>ALTERATIONS TO EXISTING RULES
>Followers: If you buy multiple followers, they can vary from individual
>to individual. Otherwise, it is more expensive to buy four different 100
>pt characters than four 250 pt ones. Followers can be Incompletes, so
>there is no need for bases, vehicles, etc. to be considered separately,
>except for clarification purposes. Remember, these are NPC's: If you
>want a perfectly reliable character hanging about, including an
>Incomplete one, buy a Duplicate. A follower can be reduced in points to
>gain more lower point ones: for every 25 points it is reduced, double
>the followers. This can lead to a character having many followers, and
>must be approved by the GM.
So, If I follow you here, this means all Bases, Vehicles, & Followers would be bought as followers? What about duplicates, should they be tossed into the mix as well?
>NEW ADVANTAGES AND LIMITATIONS
>Does Not Fail When Breached: This is an advantage on Force Wall which
>causes it to not go down when penetrated by the body of an attack. Such
>a force wall remains as long as endurance is paid. Attacks that exceed
>its defense still penetrate and can do damage to the protected
>character, but each attack must penetrate separately. Likewise
>characters can escape from or break into such a force wall by attacking
>it as they pass through and exceeding its defense, but the wall remains
>to hinder others. This is a +1 advantage.
If you simply had persistant on the FW, wouldn't that be the same?
>NEW POWER FRAMEWORK: METAPOWERS
All I am going to say here is that this is a really good idea, but it should have a stop sign by it.
| David A. Fair
Think Different | SDS International
| dfair@sdslink.com
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:58:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Needed: Mentalist Inspiration
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On Thu, 18 Dec 1997, Stephen McGinness wrote:
> At 05:39 PM 17/12/97 +0000, Stirling Westrup wrote:
> >> > Mental Invisibility.
> >But I don't actually want to be invisible. I want to be hard-to-see. I wanted
> >something with a gradual success/failure curve, with different amounts
> >of effect on different viewers, not all or nothing. There are a few places in
> >the Hero system that I think a new limitation for gradual decay of effects
> >would be nice. Something like the old limitation on Entangle that it slowly
> >faded away. That way one could buy a continuing charge area effect attack that
> >slowly lost 1 DC per unit time.
>
> Like Tim my initial reaction would be to go with Invisibility, that is after
> all what you are striving for, alwyas remembering the limitation that
> cameras, closed circuit TVs etc are not affected by the power at all,
> perhaps not even robots that have no sentience. However, on reading your
> reply I'm sure that someone had an idea of doing this using superstealth,
> buy up the skill until it is 30 or less and then give the skill modifiers
> based on peoples EGO Def and whatever else you think. Again this would
> attract limitations (dodgy putting limitations on skills but htis _is_
> justified), e.g., not versus cameras etc, limited by EGO powers of opponents.
>
> This would give you that gradual curve but still allow you to walk where you
> should not and not be seen, probably......
>
>
I haven't been reading this entire thread, but the effect sounds to me
exactly like a standard Invisibility with the fringe effect. The fringe
lets people make PER rolls, and thus has "different amounts of effect on
different viewers"; preceptive viewers will spot the character right off,
while others won't for quite a while. Stick on the limitation that it
doesn't work against cameras, etc. and you're all set.
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:03:09 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Invisible STR / fast martial arts
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Yeah, I remember this from Strike Force. Shadowwalker (?) had this.
I always wondered how it would work in practice though.
"You're face-to-face with this guy. You don't notice anything happening,
but you've been damaged. Take 28 stun and 8 body.
OK, I attack him back.
You don't know that he attacked you.
I attack him back anyway."
Is it really only usefull for getting a offensive bonus on the first attack ?
Curt Hicks
> From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org>
>
> > No. If she lifts up a car, everyone will be able to see it's
> > her doing it.... As a matter of fact, IPE on STR is one of
> > those things that hardly makes sense.
>
> Ninja Hero suggests it as a way of simulating martial artists who strike
> faster than the eye can see; however, it still doesn't make much sense for
> "constant" uses of STR.
>
> Geoff Speare
>
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:04:03 -0600 (CST)
Subject: use full disadvantages
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Has it been most people's experience that players always max out on the
allowed disadvantages ?
Curt Hicks
Subject: Re: Invisible STR
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 97 10:36:57 -0500
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From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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On 12/18/97 2:52 AM, Scott Nolan (nolan@pop.erols.com) Said:
>Invisible STR is...telekinesis.
Not neccessarily, STR, Invisible Power Effects could be something like:
"I touch the side of the car & lift it off the ground, then throw it
straight up, all without moving my hand or arm."
Remember that TK has range...
| David A. Fair
Think Different | SDS International
| dfair@sdslink.com
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:39:21 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
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> Anyone just of out military basic training can tell you that
> is humanly possible to go from being totally asleep to dressed, shaved,
> showered, bed made in perfect tight fitness, boots shined, and down a flight
> of stairs and then lined up in perfect formation in under 3 minutes total.
> Cause if you didn't, they just made you run back up and repeat it
> all until you did. :)
> Course, I haven't been able to repeat it since, Though I used to
> be able to be out the door in 10 minutes.
I've woken up for class at 2 till 9 and been across the street,
dressed, in class before it starts at 9.
It's not impossible. Just a pain.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:42:25 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Regeneration of Limbs, and Body Parts
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> Surely, you mean, "underpriced?" Aids have upper limits to the amount of
> damage that they can cure: 6 points per die plus any extra points bought.
> Once a point of BODY is Aided, that Aid counts against the maximum of any
> Aid to BODY until the BODY would have healed naturally. This is a
Um. This is a house rule. It is not supported in the BBB.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:51:59 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Needed: Mentalist Inspiration
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> Like Tim my initial reaction would be to go with Invisibility, that is after
> all what you are striving for, alwyas remembering the limitation that
> cameras, closed circuit TVs etc are not affected by the power at all,
> perhaps not even robots that have no sentience. However, on reading your
Just part of the limitation.
> reply I'm sure that someone had an idea of doing this using superstealth,
> buy up the skill until it is 30 or less and then give the skill modifiers
> based on peoples EGO Def and whatever else you think. Again this would
> attract limitations (dodgy putting limitations on skills but htis _is_
> justified), e.g., not versus cameras etc, limited by EGO powers of opponents.
But this would do nothing to someone looking at you just standing
there or walking around. Stealth only does something when one has the
place to be stealthy. Walking down a sidewalk in broad daylight wouldn't
count. That would actually involve not being seen, which is the role of
the Invisibility power.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:13:00 -0700
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
Subject: Re: Invisible STR / fast martial arts
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Curt Hicks wrote:
>
> Yeah, I remember this from Strike Force. Shadowwalker (?) had this.
> I always wondered how it would work in practice though.
> "You're face-to-face with this guy. You don't notice anything happening,
> but you've been damaged. Take 28 stun and 8 body.
> OK, I attack him back.
> You don't know that he attacked you.
> I attack him back anyway."
>
> Is it really only usefull for getting a offensive bonus on the first attack ?
I would give huge penalties for trying to block an invisible strike, and
it could be used to hide a single strike in a crowd, or to sucker
someone into a bad PR thing...
Newsman to cameraman "Hey look, UltraNiceGuy is over there attacking
that passerby for no reason, and he's not even fighting back! Get this
on tape! We'll be the lead tonight"
--
-Mhoram
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your
two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 11:22:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
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On Thu, 18 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
> Like I said, it's normal for a publisher to be enthused about its newest
> product. And if Steve was touting the fact that it is compatible with Hero
> System, so what? It is. I still don't see why so many people get so darned
> emotional over this whole Fuzion thing. Hero System is not dead and we have a
> number of 4th Ed books lined up for release next year, so that whole issue is
> water under the bridge. So again I wonder, why the fuss over Fuzion?
>
Because I feel that certain people pulled a nice 'bait and switch' on us.
Steve P comes onto the HML, asking about what people think needs to be
fixed/altered in 5th Edition. The list goes nuts bringing up all sorts of
ideas, problem powers, fixes, abuses and other comments.
Steve then pulls 5th Edition comments and announces Fuzion. He states
that it will be an improvement on 4th Edition, combine elements of Hero
and Interlock and be perfectly backwards compatible (going on a great lengths
about how easy it is to convert on the fly). When people express
dissatisfaction with this, he acts suprised (and hurt) and backs off.
I was on another list where he and another person got into a big argument
of this 'New Coke' deal. It seemed impossible that Fuzion could be
*everything* Steve claimed (faster play, easier rules, backwards
compatible, it cured cancer, it made blind men see and lame men walk...)
and when I tried out an on-the-fly conversion, I discovred that *no* you
really can't do it that way and expect reasonable results.
People are (were) peeved because it sounded like Hero had 'sold out'. RTG
and Hero had entered into a agreement and Hero was abandoning thier
customer base for a 'newer' 'slicker' product geared toward '90s heroes'.
Everything we had liked looked to be gone, and the new kid on the block
wasn't an improvment.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 11:27:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Invisible STR
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On Thu, 18 Dec 1997, Geoffrey Speare wrote:
> > No. If she lifts up a car, everyone will be able to see it's
> > her doing it.... As a matter of fact, IPE on STR is one of
> > those things that hardly makes sense.
>
> Ninja Hero suggests it as a way of simulating martial artists who strike
> faster than the eye can see; however, it still doesn't make much sense for
> "constant" uses of STR.
I would recommend the PC buy Hand Attack IPE or a No range EB with
that advantage to simulate that sort of attack.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 97 16:32:14 GMT
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Stephen McGinness)
Subject: Re: Needed: Mentalist Inspiration
Cc: champ-l@org.omg
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At 09:51 AM 18/12/97, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> But this would do nothing to someone looking at you just standing
>there or walking around. Stealth only does something when one has the
>place to be stealthy. Walking down a sidewalk in broad daylight wouldn't
>count. That would actually involve not being seen, which is the role of
>the Invisibility power.
That's where the huge skill level comes in. I don't have the book in front
of me, but there was a section on superskills or something where the skill
would allow you to do something absolutely incredible as long as your skill
level was high enough. Like using breakfall to survive falling off a
multistory building,
"It was nothing!! You just have to know how to land that's all."
Very much like the stories of ninja appearing next to the guard despite
having to approach over 200 yards of sand etc. Fantastic yes, in genre yes,
closer to the the limitations he wanted, _I_ think so.
Like I said, my initial reaction would be like yours, and the suggestion by
Bill Svitavsky that it was just the fringe effect thing was good, but I'd
use an EGO roll rather than a PER roll seeing as it is supposed to be a
mentalist thing. perhaps I would still go with the invisibility......
I just have an image of someone walking through the crowd, and no-one
noticing, the ultimate in avoidance technique...hidden in plain sight so to
speak.
> -Tim Gilberg
>
Stephen
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:45:36 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...
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> Like I said, it's normal for a publisher to be enthused about its newest
>product. And if Steve was touting the fact that it is compatible with Hero
>System, so what? It is. I still don't see why so many people get so darned
>emotional over this whole Fuzion thing. Hero System is not dead and we have a
>number of 4th Ed books lined up for release next year, so that whole issue is
>water under the bridge. So again I wonder, why the fuss over Fuzion?
>
> Mark @ GRG
You like opening new cans of worms on the list don't you? :) Since your
arrival, I believe every can has come close to opening. This is a good
thing really, sparks conversation, but at the same time really fills those
mailboxes don't it? Fuzion really did aggravate a lot of people on the
list, myself included. After not hearing anything from Hero for a while the
list heard about Fuzion for the first time in the form of the ad. I don't
remember everything that went on, but the first time it was brought up came
more along the lines of (in my mind) as
"We've come out with a new product. You guys should like it, it isn't
Champions, it is a new game. See we felt the Champions game was great but
the universe was a mess, so we built a whole new game to fix it, instead of
trying to fix what we had. Don't expect much support for 4th Edition except
for in the form of Fuzion which YOU THE PLAYER can easily transfer over, but
we'll get it on the web sometime. Hope you have the web otherwise do it
yourself. And hey, if Fuzion doesn't do well, neither will the game you
like. So make sure Fuzion does well, ok?"
Ok, things have proven different since my initial reaction to the game. I
bought it because I did want to try to support Hero, I didn't like it.
Fifteen other people I game with didn't like it. There is support for 4th
Edition in the form of Hero Plus and Gold Rush Games. I'm more excited
about Gold Rush Games over Hero Plus, but I have bought stuff Hero Plus and
have been impressed by it, though most of it was re-printed stuff. Yeah,
I'm sure I misunderstood something along the way in Fuzion's first
announcement, but I did try it, it didn't survive in my gaming groups. I
like 4th Edition, I'll support 4th Edition as long as I can buy stuff for
it, after that I'll make due with what I have. I do understand where Hero
was coming from trying to get more players, trying to survive, and trying to
push a new product. I don't understand where they were coming from when
they approached many die-hard 4th Edition players and made it sound to at
least me that 4th Edition was ending in the form we know. Ok, well, I guess
I've pent up a lot of feelings here :) Just a quick tangent from me, sorry
about that. The short of it is, I'll buy 4th Edition products and Fuzion is
a thing I won't. I'm curious though, is Fuzion doing as well as Hero had
hoped? Take it easy and talk at you later.
Sparx
=====================================================
Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 11:56:07 EST
Subject: Number of posts
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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Due to the huge number of posts on this list, I cannot afford the time to
read them all. So I have a plan. If you want my specific attention (to answer
a question, have a suggestion, or what have you) please indicate so in the
subject line of your message. For example, if you have a question, put a *new*
subject title like "Question about this thingy." Note that once a thread gets
going, I'm a lot *less* likely to read a message that begins with "Re:" (as in
"Re: Question about this thingy"), unless it's a thread I am actively
participating in.
I don't want you to get the impression that I am disinterested in this list,
because I am very much interested in your opinions. It's a simple matter of
time management. I cannot follow every thread and read every message and still
dedicate adequate time to producing GRG materials.
I hope you understand my position. Thanks for your time.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 12:27:58 EST
Subject: Re: Revised Hand Attack
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 230
<< SuperCop wants a simple billy club. >>
Why, when he can have a more modern baton or, better yet, an aluminum
Monadnock PR-24! Billy clubs are so passe'. ;)
Mark @ GRG
"Happy to have a topic he can discuss"
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 12:28:04 EST
Subject: Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
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X-UID: 231
To be frank, it sounds like there was more disappointment in Hero Games than
there was in Fuzion, per se'. Am I wrong in this assessment?
I mean, liking a game less than Hero System is fine, but it seems that some
Hero fans are practically rabid with anger toward Fuzion. This simply seems
irrational to me.
Disliking a game is fine; it's normal. Hating a game because the game you
like better wasn't expanded... that's odd.
Mark
Comments: Authenticated sender is <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
From: "Michael Nunn" <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
Organization: Rising Force Publications
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:40:21 +0000
Subject: 4th ed...So What Now?
Reply-to: mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
It may just be me, but your very presense on this list has done
wonders.
The key to saving face and 4th edition is support. Support here,
support at cons, and most importantly product support.
Over the last few yerar I have gotten the impresion from a few
un-named individuals, that they are doing us a favor by letting us
play their game. I allways thought it was the other way around.
Michael
"Herozine" Rising Force Publications "SUPER" RPG 'zine,
check out our web site at:
http://users.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm
X-Sender: nolan@pop.erols.com
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 13:23:50 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 233
> To be frank, it sounds like there was more disappointment in Hero Games
than
>there was in Fuzion, per se'. Am I wrong in this assessment?
>
> I mean, liking a game less than Hero System is fine, but it seems that some
>Hero fans are practically rabid with anger toward Fuzion. This simply seems
>irrational to me.
>
> Disliking a game is fine; it's normal. Hating a game because the game you
>like better wasn't expanded... that's odd.
I'd say that the reasons for that find their roots in the manner in which
things were done. Fuzion is not only not the game most of the people on
this list love, it is a direct competitor, not only for future market
share, but for the attentions of those who will support -our- game.
The better game has been cast aside in favor of the one that's shinier and
newer.
Scott
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 13:34:59 -0500
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org>
Subject: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
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X-UID: 232
>
> To be frank, it sounds like there was more disappointment in Hero Games than
> there was in Fuzion, per se'. Am I wrong in this assessment?
I don't really have much disappointment in Hero Games. I don't think Fuzion is
that bad; it's just that I can't envision running a campaign in it without
having the HSR to do all the behind-the-scenes work, and at that point I'll
just run Hero.
> Disliking a game is fine; it's normal. Hating a game because the game you
> like better wasn't expanded... that's odd.
No more odd than the myriad other forms of jealousy and envy prowling the
earth. :-)
Geoff Speare
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com>
Subject: AD&D Fantasy HERO conversion...
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 12:40:33 CST
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Long ago, there was a website for a Fantasy HERO game that worked very
much like AD&D. Does anyone have the website address for that game
still?
DonM.
--
=========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist, (217) 239-8365 =
= Computer Sciences Corporation, Champaign, IL dmckinne@cmi.csc.com =
= Winter War XXV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 6-8, 1998 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org (217) 469-9917 =
=========================================================================
Subject: Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 97 14:12:31 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> To be frank, it sounds like there was more disappointment in Hero Games
>than there was in Fuzion, per se'. Am I wrong in this assessment?
Well, I for one was disappointed in Fuzion. but _really_ disappointed in
the way that Hero Games handled the product. They told us all these
wonderful things about it, but then the product failed to do what they
said (it wasn't everything that Hero was, and more, It was more of a Hero
Lite or Hero for the Gaming Impaired). Hero fell into the same trap that
cathces Microsoft, Apple, and many other Software Companies: "Deliver On
Your Promises".
When this was brought to Hero's attention the attitude was aggressive,
like we had called their newborn baby butt-ugly. We got mad beleiving we
were their market and they were ignoring us, and would soon abandon us as
well.
> I mean, liking a game less than Hero System is fine, but it seems that some
>Hero fans are practically rabid with anger toward Fuzion. This simply seems
>irrational to me.
> Disliking a game is fine; it's normal. Hating a game because the game you
>like better wasn't expanded... that's odd.
It has taken the focus away from a product we hold near & dear. It is
hard to get new Champions gamers because of the negative image that
exists, so any more bad press becomes like a snoball down a mountain.
We're alot like Mac Users who over-react to bad press about Apple.
I for one felt that Fuzion was less than what was promised, and diverted
resources from Champions/Hero. Even with GRG, Atlas and Hero Plus there
have been few new products out for Hero in the past 3 years (5 products
total).
| David A. Fair
Think Different | SDS International
| dfair@sdslink.com
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 14:20:06 -0500
From: Bruce Crow <BCROW@cnmc.org>
Subject: Re: AD&D Fantasy HERO conversion...
Content-Disposition: inline
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Try this. I don't know if it is the one you are thinging of but it sounds like
it.
http://www.planetx.org/~joe/gaming/dh.html
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 14:27:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: I demand a 6th Edition!
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
If and when the 5th Edition comes out, I just won't be satisfied. I won't
like some of the costs, there will be some strange paradoxes with speed
and movement, and it won't let me merge FTL with Clinging. The whole issue
of nuclear mitosis will have been glossed over, it will be difficult to
simulate the aspirin commercial genre, and the game will lack a mechanic
for heroes with high EGO's to suddenly go insane for no adequately
explained reason and start killing their friends. Also, the spine of my
book will have broken... I'll make sure of it. We'll definitely need a 6th
Edition.
I just wanted to be the first to get this demand in.
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 13:29:12 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> To be frank, it sounds like there was more disappointment in Hero Games than
>there was in Fuzion, per se'. Am I wrong in this assessment?
Well, yes and no. There was disappointment in Hero Games because it did
sound much like abandonment on the game they created. But it was more than
that, see, I figured I'd give them the chance, the benefit of the doubt and
I bought Fuzion. There was more disappointment in Fuzion then in Hero Games
after that fact. It was nothing but a different version of Champions that
wasn't as compatible as advertised. Sure I could do the conversions, but if
I'm going to make it in the first place why not just leave it the way it is
in the first place. Secondly, as brought up by someone else. Champions
which had NO competition in the Super Hero Genre just created their own
competition, while this may work for some products, it doesn't usually make
sense with a company that is claiming they are having trouble already. If
the Super Hero Genre wasn't pulling in the market, then wouldn't it have
made more sense to make another genre book instead of remaking the Super
Hero Genre which wasn't doing well in the first place???
> I mean, liking a game less than Hero System is fine, but it seems that some
>Hero fans are practically rabid with anger toward Fuzion. This simply seems
>irrational to me.
Well, yes it is irrational, but it is also loyalty and "rabidness" that
makes a game survive. If I or others were to just toss away any game for
the next newer and slicker one that came out, you'd fine it very hard to
keep up wouldn't you? It is customer loyalty to one game that makes it
possible for games to survive and grow.
> Disliking a game is fine; it's normal. Hating a game because the game you
>like better wasn't expanded... that's odd.
> Mark
Odd, yes, but as I said it is loyalty. It wouldn't make sense for me to
like the competition simply because they put out a newer, slicker book.
Some people HATE Pepsi, some HATE Coke, Movie Theatres, Authors, etc...why
shouldn't game systems be any different. Sure maybe Hatred is a little odd,
but it is just a human emotion that occurs a lot in the competitive areas of
life such as my game can beat your game. Add a gaming list where people
fuel each other's fire than you get almost explosive hatred. A quote from
MIB, "A person is smart, people are stupid." My point, introducing the game
to a person at a time and we would have each came up with our own opinion.
Introduce it to a group of people and no matter how hard we try, each person
will in some way be influenced or effected by other opinions. I know we
would all like to think otherwise, but others do effect the way we think
about something. One person says it is really stupid, then two or three,
one person speaks for it, then they argue, two sides are usually formed, and
the opinions of the arguement change your way of thinking. Oh well, I
babble too much sometime. I hope I pointed out where I was coming from. I
hope it isn't taken personally by anyone. I may have gone into Fuzion with
a bad attitude, but I did give it a few months worth of playing with 3
gaming groups and it didn't catch on with anyone. Sure my influence could
have effected some of them, but some of them simply read the rulebook and
didn't even want to join the game before my mentioning it. Oh well, take it
easy and talk at you later.
Sparx
=====================================================
Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 97 19:51:45
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:21:21 -0400 (AST), Trevor Barrie wrote:
>> Me neither. Though I _would_ like to see an official modifier, 'Costs END to
>> Activate, but not Maintain', though I'm not sure what it's worth. Probably a
>> +1/4).
>
>Assuming the current costs for Costs END/0 END stay the same, it would
>pretty much have to be +1/4 for Powers that normally cost END, -1/4 for
>Powers which normally don't. I've been using this for a while.
This one's easy: either buy a Continuing Charge, or buy the power to 0
End, then add in the Limitation Costs End to Cast (-1/4)
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 97 19:52:32
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:32:20 -0800, Rook wrote:
>> > - Extra Limbs should go back to having a cost per limb. My own
>> > structure is 5 points for two arms, with reduced costs for lesser utility
>> > (3 points for one arm, 3 for a pair of tentacles, 1 for a single tentacle
>> > or prehensile tail).
>>
>> That was one of the silliest parts of the previous edition of Champions; I
>> certainly have no desire to see it return. Building the 100-armed giants
>> of Greek mythology should _not_ mandate a Power on the order of 1000
>> points.
>
> Agreed. Since each limb in champs does not give an extra attack, having one
>extraor one million extra makes no noticable effect on the game. If it was 1
>point per limb Prehensile
>Hair would either
>A: get VERY expensive.
>B: be forced to all move together as 'one item', killing the 'medusa effect' for
>all but multi-million point
> characters.
Yes. Having 100 arms is arguably SFX
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Tim R. Gilberg\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 97 19:56:11
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:41:48 -0600 (CST), Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> We've been over this in debate, but I think most of it comes down
>to effect and feel. Stun-only is of no importance. Almost all major
>damage donw is in STUN, and the only thing that matters in Hero is KOing
>someone. The BOD damage is negligible.
Only in Superhero games.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 15:06:48 EST
Subject: Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< I'd say that the reasons for that find their roots in the manner in which
things were done. >>
Then that becomes the real issue, doesn't it?
<< Fuzion is not only not the game most of the people on this list love, it is
a direct competitor, not only for future market share, but for the attentions
of those who will support -our- game. >>
So by your statement can I safely assume that you never buy products for
other games? ;)
<< The better game has been cast aside in favor of the one that's shinier and
newer.>>
That's your perception or assumption, albeit an incorrect one. If this is
how most Hero fans on this list truly feel, then am I just wasting my time
here? (Rhetorical question)
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 15:06:52 EST
Subject: Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Thanks for the comments re: the fuss over Fuzion. I appreciate it.
<< Even with GRG, Atlas and Hero Plus there have been few new products out for
Hero in the past 3 years (5 products total).>>
Heroic Adventures Vol. 1
Heroic Adventures Vol. 2
Blood Fury
Dystopia
Foxbat Unhinged
Ultimate Supermage
(Ultimate Martial Artist)
Widows and Orphans
Atlantis
Watchers of the Dragon
Enemies Assemble!
Enemies for Hire...
should I go on? I agree that there has been not much new product released in
the last *year*, but three years??
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 15:06:53 EST
Subject: So What Now?
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
So what can we (GRG) do about this negative perception of Hero products and
the surivability of 4th Edition? I'm open to suggestions (but please re-title
any posts that drift from the topic <G>).
Mark @ GRG
Comments: Authenticated sender is <sti@pop3.hip.cam.org>
From: "Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG>
Organization: Stirling Westrup Consulting
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 20:09:08 +0000
Subject: Re: Needed: Mentalist Inspiration
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
So Sayeth Stephen McGinness <smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk&>
> At 05:39 PM 17/12/97 +0000, Stirling Westrup wrote:
> >> > Mental Invisibility.
> >But I don't actually want to be invisible. I want to be hard-to-see.
> Like Tim my initial reaction would be to go with Invisibility, that is after
> all what you are striving for, always remembering the limitation that cameras,
> closed circuit TVs etc are not affected by the power at all, perhaps not even
> robots that have no sentience. However, on reading your reply I'm sure that
> someone had an idea of doing this using superstealth, buy up the skill until
> it is 30 or less and then give the skill modifiers based on peoples EGO Def
> and whatever else you think. Again this would attract limitations (dodgy
> putting limitations on skills but this _is_ justified), e.g., not versus
> cameras etc, limited by EGO powers of opponents.
>
> This would give you that gradual curve but still allow you to walk where you
> should not and not be seen, probably......
This is an intriguing idea, and one I hadn't thought of before. Anyway, Tim and
James have convinced me to go with invisibility. I'm not sure if I sent my
messages to that effect (as intended) to this list or to those two individual.
I shouldn't try to post messages when I'm sleep deprived...
ObOffTopic: Are you a member of the Exeter gaming group by any chance? I worked
with a friend there (Ian Spackman) on a game for the recent tournament (The
Freengrottle game...)
--
Stirling Westrup | Use of the Internet by this poster
sti@cam.org | is not to be construed as a tacit
| endorsement of Western Technological
| Civilization or its appurtenances.
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Christopher Taylor\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 97 20:09:14
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: 5th Edition thoughts
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:46:01 -0800, Christopher Taylor wrote:
>Aids that grant powers a character does not already have are half as effective.
>Thus, if Aidmaster grants Captain Speedo 10 points of Power Defense, and
>Captain Speedo does not already have any, the effect rolled is halved before
>applying it to the good Captain.
This is a good one, but I'd refine it: the benefit is halved after it
doubles the recipient's current defense - or a certain limit eg half
the campaign max DC, and only in SuperHeroic campaigns.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Christopher Taylor\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 97 20:14:10
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: 5th edition, contd
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:06:33 -0800, Christopher Taylor wrote:
>CHARGES: No number of charges is more than a +1/2 Advantage. Even
>thousands of charges is more limited than spending no endurance, also a
>+1/2 advantage. The exception to this is autofire, which has double cost
>for the Reduced END advantage; for autofire attacks, the charges advantage
>can go as high as +1.
I disagree: Charges are automatically Uncontrolled, O End Persistent.
If I buy a power as a Continuing Charge, I don't have to worry about it
after I set it off even if I go unconscious, but a power that is just 0
End demands some attention.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Michael Surbrook\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 97 20:17:15
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: 5th edition, contd
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:35:41 -0500 (EST), Michael Surbrook wrote:
>> SIDE EFFECTS: At the present cost, very low power effects are severely
>> punished by this advantage. Thus, the chart is slightly different:
>>
>> -1/4 ½ the power level, minimum 20 PTS
>> -1/2 equal to power level, minimum 50 PTS
>
>I was wondering about a variation on Side Effects, where the power affects
>not the character but his environment. For example, you crank up your
>mega-chi Aid and create a minor shockwave centered on your person. People
>get knocked over, your surroundings get wrecked, etc.
Just buy Side Effects twice.
Side Effects which don't just affect the character are fun! Can you say
Explosive Flash vs Sight? :}
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 97 20:21:30
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: 5th edition, contd
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:22:45 -0500 (EST), Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>
>
>On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Christopher Taylor wrote:
>>
>> > SIDE EFFECTS: At the present cost, very low power effects are severely
>> > punished by this advantage. Thus, the chart is slightly different:
>> >
>> > -1/4 ½ the power level, minimum 20 PTS
>> > -1/2 equal to power level, minimum 50 PTS
>>
>> I was wondering about a variation on Side Effects, where the power affects
>> not the character but his environment. For example, you crank up your
>> mega-chi Aid and create a minor shockwave centered on your person. People
>> get knocked over, your surroundings get wrecked, etc.
>>
>
>It might be handy to expand this even further to include "Undesirable
>Effects." Various effects can be built as powers, but are generally
>disadvantages. For example, someone a few weeks back wanted to build an
>empath who would involuntarily "leak" emotions to bystanders.
Try Physical Limitation: Leaks emotions when using powers Infrequently
(8- or 11-).
>Or how about
>a healing spell that puts the subject into a deep sleep?
Side Effect: Drain Long Term End?
> Or an attack that
>injures the target but confers some minor special ability?
Side Effects
Note that if a power does not require a Skill Roll, the Side Effects
automatically activate.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 97 20:39:24
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Extra Time on a Triggered Power
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:18:56 +0000, ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net wrote:
>One of the characters in my campaign is using an INT Drain which
>takes 5 minutes to prepare, but it is also built with a Trigger, so
>that it can be delivered in combat; essentially, she has to inject
>a potion into someone for the drug to take effect.
>
>Is anybody else as bugged by this as I am? I don't think that the
>Extra Time should be worth the full limitation in these
>circumstances. How do you handle injectible drugs in your campaigns?
It's not a Trigger, it's a Delayed Effect!
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 97 21:06:28
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Green Hornet conversion
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On Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:05:03 EST, Leah L Watts wrote:
>Any other old-radio fans on the list? I'm working on converting the
>radio/movie serial version of the Green Hornet to Hero System, and have
>hit a couple snags:
>
>1. I know the Black Beauty routinely outran cop cars, but did they ever
>decide just how fast it went? Also, in the serials it had better
>cornering than many other cars, what would be the best way to handle
>that?
>
>2. The gas gun. The example of a gas attack in the rulebook is NND,
>defense Life Support or holding breath. So far, I haven't found a single
>time when someone was able to hold their breath and avoid passing out
>from the Hornet's gas, so NND wouldn't be appropriate here. Would AVLD,
>defense Life Support work, or should I bite the bullet and make it one
>heck of a STUN Drain?
>
>3. An obvious disad for the Hornet is Reputation 14-. However, in his
>Secret ID Britt Reid is (locally) famous -- noted newspaper publisher,
>wealthy, seen in all the best clubs. I have several radio episodes on
>tape with some version of "I can't visit him as the Hornet, he knows me
>as Britt Reid and might recognize me" in the dialogue. Buying Reputation
>twice, once for Reid's reputation and once for the Hornet's, feels like
>cheating. Would it be legit to buy Reputation once and have two
>different definitions of what the Reputation is?
Then he has Public ID Brett Reid and Secret ID: Brett Reid. Just like
Batman.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:22:21 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: So What Now?
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On Thu, 18 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
> So what can we (GRG) do about this negative perception of Hero products and
> the surivability of 4th Edition? I'm open to suggestions (but please re-title
> any posts that drift from the topic <G>).
Produce quality Hero System products for more than just the Super Hero
genre. Put adds in major game mags (Shadis, Dragon, Pyramid) showing that
Hero is being supported by GRG. Make sure the products are more than
"Enemies of the week" or silly, ill-thought-out adventures.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 13:35:43 -0800
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger)
Subject: Re: So What Now?
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Mark at GRG wrote:
>So what can we (GRG) do about this negative perception of Hero
>products and
>the survivability of 4th Edition? I'm open to suggestions (but please
>re-title any posts that drift from the topic <G>).
Well, I think that there is a greater issue at stake.
Gaming *as a hobby* is dying, not just 4th Ed. With video games and
CCGs, it is getting harder and harder to find gamers (or at least in
my area [L.A.]). The last few conventions that I have been to have had
crowds that were much smaller than cons four years ago.
But I think that you are already taking steps to try and get more
players. I think your decision to advertise in Astro City is a great
idea. This is a widely read and respected comic book, and if you can
even get Kurt Busiak to plug San Angelo in his letter column (which he
does on a regular basis), a whole lot of new people may be getting
wind of the game. maybe you should look into advertising in other
comics, although that may prove to be prohibitively expensive. I would
love to see a Champions advert in Thunderbolts, or in Adventures in
the DCU (especially in the latter...aimed at younger readers, don't
you know.)
One thing else: somehow, you've go to get out the idea that Champions
isn't a dead system. I don't know how often I've heard stories
involving misinformed Game shop clerks, including one about Gamescape
in S.F., one of the best game stores I've ever shopped at. If the
biggest game store in S.F. thinks you are dead, you might as well be.
I am fairly new to the Hero system...I've only been playing/GMing for
a couple years. But in that time, I have purchased very nearly every
supplement published. And I would love to spend money on it in the
future. Unfortunately, Hero Games isn't producing much for it. So
that's where you come in, Mark. I wish you lots of luck.
Richard
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:39:33 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: So What Now?
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> So what can we (GRG) do about this negative perception of Hero products and
>the surivability of 4th Edition? I'm open to suggestions (but please re-title
>any posts that drift from the topic <G>).
First of all, HERO has to go on a media blitz to convince gamers and
distrubutors that HERO Games DOES still exist. Send posters to games shops
and the like.
Second, print the #$$@@$!!! Ultimate Super Mage. What's the point in my
buying it on CD-ROM and then printing it myself? I don't own nor do I have
access to a laser printer, nor do I particularly like Adobe Acrobat. I want
gaming books. If it's too big, trim it down! Use smaller font size and add
more art! (I'd also like to ask people with the book their opinions: could a
lot of stuff be trimmed out of the USM without affecting its usefulness?)
Third, HERO has to update their print values. The BBB needs a facelift, with
new art and better organization - oh hell, it really does need a 5th edition
(but you can't discuss that <shrug>). Let's face it, 4th Edition Champs
looks dated. The cover should emphasize the versatility of the game system.
All my BBB says on the cover is "Super-Hero Role-Playing Game and HERO
System Rules" and "Champions the SUPER role playing game". How about adding
in "The most complete, most versatile game ever created! Complete rules for
playing in any genre!" - which is more or less true. Even the TUM and TUMA
only added very minor, obscure rules points. Champs IS the only 'complete'
multi-genre roleplaying game that comes in ONE book (GURPS is spread across
several), and HERO _has_ to capitalize on that.
Fourth, chop lots of the 'champs universe' stuff out of the BBB in favour of
several pages dedicated to each of the major RPG genres and how to use the
HERO system to make them. Fantasy, Sci-Fi, Super-Hero, Horror, Pulp,
Cyberpunk, etc. The Champs Universe and Fantasy HERO could easily be done as
separate suppliments that expands on the notions given in the BBB and
provide specific universes for 'less ambitious' GMs.
Note that yes, a lot of this was done by releasing the 'HERO System Rules'
in its own book for those who didn't want all the Champions stuff, but a
large mistake was made - they called it 'HERO System Rules', which is about
as exciting as dirt. Even GURPS was smart enough to have "GURPS" in really
big type, never mind it was an acronym for 'generic universal role playing
system'.
Fifth, take a distintive format and stick to it. Look at Heavy Gear from
Dream Pod 9. All the books in the Heavy Gear line have distinctive black and
yellow striping on the covers. Very slick. Some efforts were made in this
direction by HERO (TUMA and TUM and Watchers of the Dragon all have
'similar' cover layouts), but most of the HERO product line is a visual pizza.
Sixth, a little licensing never hurts. I doubt you could land the DC or
Marvel lines (and for heaven's sake, not Image!!), but there are other
universes out there that beg for a game tie-in. I'd love a Ninja High
School/Gold Digger/Warrior Nun Areala (though I loathe the last, it's all
effectively the same universe) RPG (It's looking like the scheduled Gold
Digger RPG is sputtering and won't make it to print). I wish that GRG would
be doing Usagi in HERO 4th, not Fuzion. Why was that done? Just b/c it's
easier to stick the 'condensed' Fuzion rules into the book? I can see the
logic, but 'forcing' people to buy the HSR won't create that many enemies
(die-hard Usagi fans WILL buy the HSR + Usagi 'worldbook'), and introduce
lots of people to the HERO system to boot. Using Fuzion just leaves folks
with (IMHO) a 'poorer' game system, despite having to buy just one book. I
think GRG misjudged the Usagi fans out there. I think most of them would
prefer the greater complexity and completeness of HERO.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:22:30 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Subject: X-Mas Break
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Bye-bye all. Time for break. If I get net service over break,
I'll be back soo. Otherwise, see ya in december.
-Tim
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Slipperiness
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 14:26:30 -0800
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On Thursday, December 18, 1997 5:14 AM, Stephen McGinness wrote:
>At 04:54 AM 18/12/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>>>Well, if we used DEX Suppress with the Negative Characteristic
rules,
>>then a sufficiently powerful Suppress would force DEX rolls. People
>>with higher DEXs wouldn't need to make rolls, but any roll they did
>>have to make would be reduced, due to the slipperiness of the
surface
>>they were on.
>
>The problem with this sort of thing is that people with high POW Def
but no
>flight would be unaffected, and people with no POW Def and flight
would be!!
>Doesn't fit the effects you want to achieve.
>
>I'd be inclined to use a power that like NND has a couple of common
defences
>that can be named, perhaps even a NND Dex Suppress, with defences
being
>flight, spiked boots, high friction surface, and Skating.
>
The last time I made this suggestion, we ended up not only adding NND
to Drain, but I completely rewrote the NND/AVLD rules to allow for
_saving_ points when adding NND to an attack that effectively already
had AVLD.
This had the advantage of not only solving the slipperyness problem,
but also fixing a mechanic that I think is somewhat broken already.
>
>>However, I would have no objection to an Interference power.
>
>obviously something that isn't a kludge would be welcome, but it
would have
>to keep the defences in mind.
>
Oh, I do. I should have explained more clearly, but I keep forgetting
that I need to re-explain my suggestions to people who might have
missed an earlier thread.
Filksinger
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Needed: Mentalist Inspiration
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 14:35:49 -0800
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Monday, December 15, 1997 10:22 PM, Stirling Westrup wrote:
<snip>
<<Mental Invisibility.
She projects an aura that affects peoples minds and convinces them
that she
isn't there. It would be probably be bought as some form of Images
(Static Image of empty space) aftecting all but mental senses
(mentalists can
'see' what she's doing) Probably has some sort of limitation like
'Points of
Mental Def counter negative perception modifiers' or something like
that. She
would likely have extra levels of DCV linked to the Mental
Invisibility. She
might even have a multipower in which she can tune her aura to project
other affects, like heightened beauty or impressiveness or even some
sort of
'Boy am I scarey' field.>>
I have a character in my present PBeM game called The Mystic One. He
has a psychic Invisibility field. I treated it as a normal
Invisibility, save that it didn't affect cameras, robots, and mirrors,
and that the fringe effect was that, when you stood really close to
him, you might see him, possibly out of the corner of your eye, just
for a second.
The possibility that someone who was looking for him might see him, if
they searched the room carefully, or if they watched for a long period
of time, was a SFX. With regular Invisibility, he might be revealed by
making footprints or by two holes in the puddle he is standing in. I
decided that you couldn't see the footprints until after he moved from
a spot, and couldn't see holes in water, etc., but that you might see
him if you carefully searched a room or waited a long time.
For an example, there was a fight between an invisible assassin and
Fortunato, in one of the Wildcards books. I haven't kept up on them,
so someone else would have to give you the book title. It's the one
where a group of Aces went on a worldwide trip with some official or
semi-official function.
Filksinger
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Invisible STR / fast martial arts
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 14:42:01 -0800
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On Thursday, December 18, 1997 6:31 AM, Curt Hicks wrote:
>
>Yeah, I remember this from Strike Force. Shadowwalker (?) had this.
>I always wondered how it would work in practice though.
>"You're face-to-face with this guy. You don't notice anything
happening,
>but you've been damaged. Take 28 stun and 8 body.
> OK, I attack him back.
>You don't know that he attacked you.
> I attack him back anyway."
>
>Is it really only usefull for getting a offensive bonus on the first
attack ?
If your players do this, then use an EB, IPE, Physical on them. Then
they attack whoever is standing next to them, while the villain
gloats.
"Did you see that? He just walked up to and killed that man! Ha, ha,
ha, ha, ha, ha!"
Filksinger
X-Sender: nolan@pop.erols.com
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:49:49 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...
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<x-rich>><<<< I'd say that the reasons for that find their roots in the manner in which
>things were done. >>
>
> Then that becomes the real issue, doesn't it?
>
><<<< Fuzion is not only not the game most of the people on this list love, it is
>a direct competitor, not only for future market share, but for the attentions
>of those who will support -our- game. >>
>
> So by your statement can I safely assume that you never buy products for
>other games? ;)
Not other superhero games...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Protect the troops first; the wishes of superior officers are
secondary."
<bold>General George S. Patton, Jr., U.S.A.
</bold>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
</x-rich>
X-Sender: nolan@pop.erols.com
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 18:08:03 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: So What Now?
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<x-rich>> So what can we (GRG) do about this negative perception of Hero products and
>the surivability of 4th Edition? I'm open to suggestions (but please re-title
>any posts that drift from the topic <<G>).
1) Produce quality HERO products.
2) Advertise quality HERO products. In trade magazines and in game stores. Game store-posters are great advertisement.
3) Stay honest with us (and I believe you have been).
Scott
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Protect the troops first; the wishes of superior officers are
secondary."
<bold>General George S. Patton, Jr., U.S.A.
</bold>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
</x-rich>
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 15:17:07 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: So What Now?
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At 03:06 PM 12/18/97 EST, you wrote:
> So what can we (GRG) do about this negative perception of Hero products and
>the surivability of 4th Edition? I'm open to suggestions (but please re-title
>any posts that drift from the topic <G>).
Hero needs to be known out there. People have heard of GURPS, D&D, and so
forth, but if anyone has heard of Hero they call it Champions, and lump it
with Villains&Vigilantes and so forth as a dead system. Hero as a company
and Game system must be known, not just that its active, but that it is more
than Champions.
To this end NO BBB this time for 5th edition, make it HERO SYSTEM RULES and
put out a Champions book to go with it, like Fantasy Hero and Western Hero.
Only notes on how to use the rules in various Genre TYPES is needed, not the
whole champions worldbook.
MANY MANY More adventures and sourcebooks needed for Hero, the market is
rough now, (although CCGS are dying out finally), but its even rougher with
no product on the shelf. D&D was every subpar gamers freind because it was
so easy to play, get a few books, an adventure, premade characters, and any
idiot could play. Hero needs to have more product out there.
When you put out a book, make it fit the genre. Make Champions stuff look
like a comic book, make sure every product looks similar for Champions, so
its recognizable and easy for the masses (and moms and dads etc) to pick
out. Fantasy Hero stuff should look like a fantasy book or movie poster,
very fantastic and frazettaish. Star Hero should look very high tech and
spacey, etc, but be consistent for each one, and have a consistent HERO
metatheme, as it were, something that identifies them all quickly.
ADVERTISE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
For the love of God, how can anyone expect a product to survive without
advertisement? Offer free banners to people on their RPG pages, advertise
through AOhell, put out posters for game, comic, book, and movie shops...
advertise in the local paper, work through local gaming clubs and groups,
put out ads in Comic books and magazines, including crossword puzzle and
anything vaguely related to gaming.
And push that Hero is the only TRUE multigenre system, the one system that
with very little effort will reproduce any system in a fun and exciting
manner... slam GURPS subtly with comments about how HERO is all in one
book... and organized! Every book should say MULTI GENRE on the cover
somewhere, because FH stuff works in Champions, and Star Hero, and Danger
International...
And please use me as an artist for all this hee hee
----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: So What Now? (Stores believing Hero/Champs is dead)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 23:45:38 +0000 (GMT)
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> One thing else: somehow, you've go to get out the idea that Champions
> isn't a dead system. I don't know how often I've heard stories
> involving misinformed Game shop clerks, including one about Gamescape
> in S.F., one of the best game stores I've ever shopped at. If the
> biggest game store in S.F. thinks you are dead, you might as well be.
>
And Interesting side note to this is Games Gallery at the Stonestown
mall in San Francisco. in 1996 I went in looking for Champions products and
was told it was store policy to not carry the line or take orders on it.
They had decided it simply didn't sell well enough to carry.
However I was in there last monday and found a copy of Heroic
Adventures #2 and a copy of C:NM hiding on a bottom shelf between some
assorted stuff.
But I've told by at least one store that they are often sent several
items by the distributor on a blanket listing of distributor pics. They get
this stuff if they don't send in their regular order, or if they just send
it in with a check mark for grab bag stuff.
This was the explaination I got for how they ended up carrying
C:NM in the first place, which they claimed was not selling well.
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: So What Now?
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 23:57:58 +0000 (GMT)
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>
> Mark at GRG wrote:
> >So what can we (GRG) do about this negative perception of Hero
> >products and
> >the survivability of 4th Edition? I'm open to suggestions
ADVERTISE.
put out adds in Shadis, Previews, Duelist, Gen13, X-Men, JLA, Astro City,
Spawn, WitchBlade, Avengers, Fantastic Four.
I realize that I have listed comics that are not popular here,
but the idea is that they are top sellers.
It may cost an arm and a leg to advertise, it may not. But it will
pay off.
Your best option is a full page add split 50-50 Hero 4th and
Champions:NM. If the adds have a somewhat diferent look and feel, but not too
stark; it will create the perception that RPG Super Games are a bigger
market than they actually are. And perception is reality.
I was told by a con-rep for a major west coast distributor that
the RPG 'Heavy Gear' didn't sell at first. But then it flooded the stores
with several suppliments and flashy fliers. This created a perception that
it was a big thing. Perception being reality everybody wanted in on the 'fad'
and bought it. At this point Heavy Gear has been around for 2 years, sold
out on four printings, shipping a second edition this week, and selling a
second product as well as having just been 'aquired' for license into a PC
computer game which is in the stores now.
SOMEBODY hire their marketing team for Hero please.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:30:00 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Normal States
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happyelf wrote:
>
> At 07:15 PM 12/17/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
> >In most cases, the "normal state" in question would involve Always On
> >powers, though I can think of a few examples where the character can
> >deviate from its normal form. (Post-Mutant Massacre Kitty Pryde, for
> >example, or a leprechaun with "growth" powers.)
> >
> >I'm sure a poorly worded rule would be subject to lots of abuse, so I'd be
> >interested in other people's takes on this.
> >
> >
>
> Hows about an addition to 'always on', that being
> 'natural state'? same value (+1/2), would kinda
> cancel out always on and prevent tampering without a
> transform power being used. . .size is an easy one,
> but what happened to post-massacre pryde? got stuck in
> desolid form?
Yep! Unless she concentrated, in which case she was solid until she
forgot to concentrate.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:43:46 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Slipperiness
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-- Filksinger wrote:
>
> On Wednesday, December 17, 1997 7:24 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >
> > OK, so if we take the row for "Stone" as a pattern and apply -2 BODY for
> >every 1/2X thickness, and apply the Transform only to the top 125mm,that's
> >8 BODY. Does that work for everyone here?
> >
>
> Well, that does make it harder to create a slippery surface on a
> sidewalk than on ordinary dirt.
>
> I suggest that you determine a good BODY for a sheet of ice covering
> one hex (not necessarily the correct BODY, but one good for game
> mechanics), and just use the creation version of Transformation. Then
> it doesn't normally matter _what_ surface you are on.
>
> Filksinger Call it 5 body for a nice round number. This would require a 2D6 major
transform (30 points) for success most of the time. And in the case of a
vehicle, make it AoE line x" where x is the number of inches of movement the
vehicle has.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 18 Dec 1997 20:51:57 -0500
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>>>>> "MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> writes:
>> Just remember that Transformation cannot add points to a character, it
>> can only shift them around or take them away.
MS> What a minute, my copy of the BBB and the HSR says *nothing* about not
MS> being able to increase the number of points a character has.
"Thou shalt not create useful things with Transformation." :)
Seriously, it reads, "however, Transform shouldn't be used to create useful
things like weapons or gold."
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin.
\
From: "Marc Seebass" <kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: New power idea
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 21:23:36 -0600
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I'm thinking their should be a new power that works basically is an affect
resisted by a stat roll. Slipperyness would work on dex, Paralysis from
venom on Con, and mental paralysis on Ego, etc. This would make a lot of
power concepts easier to create.
----Marc "Kitsune" Seebass
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 21:33:21 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: So What Now?
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At 12:13 AM 12/19/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
> << With video games and CCGs, it is getting harder and harder to find
> gamers (or at least in my area [L.A.]). >>
>
> Things slowed down a bit with the boom in the CCG industry, but that's
> leveling off nicely now, IMO. Besides, a number of companies are doing
> things to bring new players into the hobby (us included).
Not to mention Peter Adkisson's (sp?) "promise" to help cut down the CCG
boom to size by aggressive pursuit of the Garfield patent. :^]
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
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| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) |
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Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 21:33:23 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: So What Now?
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At 04:51 AM 12/19/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
> We've thought about that, and may still do it. Co-op ads with Hero
> Games/RTG are a good deal for us. I agree with you that they'd be
> effective. Something like the 4th Ed Dr. Destroyer facing off with the
> C:NM version Dr. Destroyer...? ;) "Either way you slice it, it comes
> up world domination!" :D
Mark, have I told you how much I like the way your mind works? ;]
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
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| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
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Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 21:33:25 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...
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At 04:04 AM 12/19/97 -0800, Captain Spith wrote:
> Not really odd, because in this case, the game you like better is not
>being expanded BECAUSE of the new game being produced. It has seemed to
>me that most people on this list would agree that even the creators of
>the Fuzion system should know (or have known) that it was NOT everything
>they told us it was.
Ah, but there's the rub: to them, it IS everything they told us it was.
The real problem seems to be that Hero Games is not composed of the same
kind of person as HERO *gamers*. The two groups have radically different
standards and values, most significantly that those inside the company
prefer a looser style of play (ergo, the list often asks for an "official
opinion" on a rules question which comes back "do what you want").
Questions of compatibility and conversion are a lot easier to render when
you're not adhering very tightly to the original rules in the first place.
The whole Fuzion argument reminds me of that Dilbert strip where he's
talking to the sales department. "You just sold our customer a product that
doesn't exist and which we can't make! Do you know what that means?!?"
"Yeah, it means I'm a great salesman and you're a crappy engineer." You can
assign either character to whichever side you want :] but the point being,
there's this same gap of thought process going on here. Company and market
just aren't speaking the same language.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 18 Dec 97 20:37:20 -0800
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editi
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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>I also think that, once we have a good 5/d HA and the cost of AID
>has been doubled, we should see about making it a hard-and-fast
>rule that Characteristics just plain never go in Power Frameworks.
>(If you want that, buy Aid...)
f> Eewww. I'm not saying I disagree, but some concepts, power suits, for
f> example, can make that a kind of kludgey solution.
f> Filksinger
The stats in a powersuit don't usually go into a power frameworkd
(at least I haven't seen it very often) they just get the
limitation, whatever that happens to be...
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 18 Dec 97 20:39:54 -0800
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editi
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> Or, as I'd put it, it would mean that putting multiple attack Powers
> _in_ a Multipower isn't a total point crock. If they do rule that
> multiple attack Powers can't be used simultaneously by default,
> then having multiple such Powers in a Multipower would obviously
> have to be outlawed.
t> Not at all. Just a point savings that all characters get in some
t> form or another. Bricks get STR cheap, MAs get MA packages, others get
t> ECs and MPs. Plus, it encourages variety in powers.
t> Otherwise, you will
t> see no one take more than one large EB, no matter if
t> you can mix or not.
t> -Tim Gilberg
STR and EC are pretty much straight up cost breaks... Multipowrs
OTOH, do have a downside, in that you can't use everything at once,
if you can mix & match attack powers, that downside is meaningful
for attack powers, if not - and I really see not as the most
common interpretation out there, even if I don't agree with it -
then if you have more than one attack, they go into a Multipower.
I could see some character concepts (usually somewhat more experienced
charachters) taking two powers at full price, outside of power frameworks
in order to be able to use them simultaneously. Though, even if its
allowed w/o an advantage, it's still barely worth the cost.
X-Sender: wbandsis@mail.westco.net
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 23:41:15 -0500
From: "C. Badger" <wbandsis@westco.net>
Subject: Re: New power idea
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At 21:23 12/18/97 -0600, Marc Seebass wrote:
>I'm thinking their should be a new power that works basically is an affect
>resisted by a stat roll. Slipperyness would work on dex, Paralysis from
>venom on Con, and mental paralysis on Ego, etc. This would make a lot of
>power concepts easier to create.
Sounds like drain vs a stat.
Slipperiness: drain vs Dex only while on surface (-1/4)
Mental PAralysis: drain vs ego or stun
Weakness: drain vs strength
Paralysis: drain vs con or str since a str 0 person will have a lot of
trouble moving.
(Possibly add a +1/2 or +1 advantage for making the drain work on the lower
of two stats. like in the case of the paralysis. Of course this advantage
would have a magnifying glass to signal gm approval.)
Slowness gun: drain vs speed
Sluggish/Energy level drain: Drain vs recovery (you can use your endurance
just once gone takes forever to get back)
-----
C. Badger
My Feet hurt and I've forgotten how to dance.
Londo
Babylon 5
From: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net (Mike Lehmann)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 20:42:06 -0800
Organization: Terminal BBS (403)327-9731
Subject: 5th Edition thoughts
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-=> Quoting Opal to Mike Lehmann <=-
c > ENTANGLE: may buy the defense and body separately at 5 pts each, but
c > one may
c > not be more than double the other.
Op>
Op> Bad idea, DEF is more significant than the dice. Stick with
Op> the current limitations... you can always partially limit it.
It's actually a very good idea. I use the same rule and I find it works
perfectly.
GM: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net | Justice Krewe
Web: http://www.dfw.net/~aronhead/justice_krewe.html | The Illuminators
Short waiting list for new players | Enigma Watch
Lurkers welcome (Write to me!) | KnightWatch
... Quit laughing. I'm trying to humiliate you - Crow
~~~ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
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Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 22:58:07 -0600 (CST)
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From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...
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> So by your statement can I safely assume that you never buy products for
>other games? ;)
Actually, Hero Games is the only game I truly have enjoyed for a long time.
Even if I hear of a game system that sounds interesting I usually use Hero
to run the game with Hero mechanics. I admit I do buy other games, but not
super-hero and more to the fact, I use the books I buy as ideas for
campaigns under Hero mechanics. Very few have survived under their own
mechanics. Take it easy and talk at you later.
Sparx
=====================================================
Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 18 Dec 97 20:59:56 -0800
Subject: Re: Revised Hand Attack
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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>SuperCop wants a simple billy club. He buys:
>
>4d HAp, 0 END, OAF, Beam: always +1 OCV & +3d -1/4,
>Apts 30, Rpts 13
>
>SuperCop has a 25 STR, but since the 0 END on the
>billy club doesn't extend to STR, he just adds
>the two together. He does 8d normal with a +1 OCV
>whenever he uses his billy club.
>
j> So, you would give an *additional* point break to the OCV level? As it
j> stands now, if I want a +1 OCV w/ a weapon it would
j> cost 5 points, usually
j> with a -1 OAF lim. You're giving it a -1 1/4 for no reason (IMO)...
Um.. no, actually it's not a level, it's a 4d HA, set to always do
+3d & +1 OCV... it's actually slightly more expensive than the level
would be because he had to buy the zero END on it... I just thought
it was kinda cute that you could buy it that way. :)
Thanks for the other comments.
BTW, another thing this lets you do is buy an 'offensive martial
art' just get 4 or 6 dice of 0 END HA, it gives you a menue of
manuevers from block (+1 or 2 OCV), to all-out damage to all
out OCV... no defense in sight, but fun when you come up against
those really-high DCV types...
Reminds me of a scene from one of my old games... a luck-based
martial artist, 'Sarindipity' (sp?) was fighting an energy
projecting villains called Raven. Raven fired a 'big-looking'
sonic blast at the luck guy:
"Dive for cover!"
"Uh... I'll just give it to you: that's not a good idea"
"Huh? what about my Luck?"
"I really don't think it's going to matter..."
<player looks mildly peaved>
So, then I hit this high DCV character and, before he
could even ask for a luck roll, did the damage: 14 stun
Raven had spread he EB except for the last 4 dice...
Well, it was funny at the time. :)
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 18 Dec 97 21:11:02 -0800
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage o
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> f > 1) The second character has different SFX. Thus, if I have the
f> second
> f > character, a Drain vs SFX cannot affect both powers- they are
> f > separate.
> f >
>
>I didn't mention F/X, I was assuming they were identical...
f> Perhaps. However, if they are identical, get Multipower or Elemental
f> Control. To do otherwise is bad design.
'Bad design' if you automatically assume that attacks cant
be combined in a single attack roll, evidence for doing the
same if you don't...
Remember I was comparing a Multipower to two attacks bought staight,
big difference in cost, with no attendant utility... unless you
allow the two full-cost attacks to have the option of going off
together...
But, I suppose it could just be a way of penalizing new players
who didn't read Multipwer carefully enough... :)
f> Hmmm. I thought that linked was added in the Champions 3 book, or at
f> least 3rd Ed. I could be wrong, of course.
f> Filksinger
Could be, I am going from memory from years ago... and my memory
hasn't been good lately... someone had to quote the *entire* Trigger
advantage to me the other day...
<sobbing> I was so ashamed!
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 00:13:05 EST
Subject: Re: So What Now?
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< Well, I think that there is a greater issue at stake. aming *as a hobby* is
dying, not just 4th Ed. >>
I disagree.
<< With video games and CCGs, it is getting harder and harder to find gamers
(or at least in my area [L.A.]). >>
Things slowed down a bit with the boom in the CCG industry, but that's
leveling off nicely now, IMO. Besides, a number of companies are doing things
to bring new players into the hobby (us included).
<< But I think that you are already taking steps to try and get more players.
I think your decision to advertise in Astro City is a great idea. This is a
widely read and respected comic book, and if you can even get Kurt Busiak to
plug San Angelo in his letter column (which he does on a regular basis), a
whole lot of new people may be getting wind of the game. >>
He said he was going to plug it, and we have a quote of his to use in the ad
(and on the book). PLus the Usagi RPG uses Instant Fuzion, which will make it
easy for new (young) gamers to get into the hobby.
<< maybe you should look into advertising in other comics, although that may
prove to be prohibitively expensive. >>
We have, and it is. Due to their huge circulation.
<< One thing else: somehow, you've go to get out the idea that Champions isn't
a dead system. I don't know how often I've heard stories involving misinformed
Game shop clerks, including one about Gamescape in S.F., one of the best game
stores I've ever shopped at. If the biggest game store in S.F. thinks you are
dead, you might as well be. >>
Well, I'm all ears. That was the reason for my message in the first place --
to solicit ideas.
Mark @ GRG
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 18 Dec 97 21:16:24 -0800
Subject: Re: TUSV: Slipperiness
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>However, I would have no objection to an Interference power.
s> obviously something that isn't a kludge would be
s> welcome, but it would have
s> to keep the defences in mind.
>Filksinger
>
s> Stephen
I was thinking that - rather than the more complex version posted
a while back - CE could be defined at a higher point level as
forcing a specific roll.
For instance, Mist: Per roll to identify individuals;
Ice: Dex roll or fall when attempting to run (ie the
Movement running, includes walking..), Heat, CON roll
or no post-12 REC, etc...
A regular CE is 5 pts, one like this might be 20, with
a 'small combat effect' in between at 10?
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 18 Dec 97 21:23:30 -0800
Subject: Incomplete Characters [Long]
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D> Subject: Incomplete Characters [Long]
D> Many people mentioned these rules in the discussion of a hypothetical =
D> 5th Ed. Since I had never seen them, I checked out Opal's page. In it =
Actually, James Jandebuer <jimalj@best.com> also known as the
Gaming Philosopher, is the primary authoer of the incompolet
rules. I did help (mainly Rigid Armor - there I admitted it -
and Internal Spaces - which I'm a bit more proud of) :)
Credit where it's due....
I'm going to read your message in detail, and forward it to
James, before I reply, first glance, though, you have some
good points.
We *really* apreciate this kind of feedback,
Thanks!
--
Opal
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 18 Dec 97 21:31:06 -0800
Subject: use full disadvantages
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e> Has it been most people's experience that players always max out on the
e> allowed disadvantages ?
e> Curt Hicks
Yep, except in earlier editions when some games didn't *have*
limits.... I've never seen someone max out limitations when
there were none (though it was possible, after a certain number
of Disads, further ones where halved in value, then halved
again untill zero). Someone figured out the max points you
could get this way in an old AC article called 'On Powergaming'
or something like that - had sample characters like Planetman
(shrinks planets, throws them at you, turns off the shrinking),
and (my favourite) the Landlord... who bought the *entire univers
as a base (or only part of the univers, but the inhabitants are
all Fanatically loyal to him). :)
From: "Sean Pavlish" <pavlish@erols.com>
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 00:37:23 -0500
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> Like I said, it's normal for a publisher to be enthused about its newest
>product. And if Steve was touting the fact that it is compatible with Hero
>System, so what? It is. I still don't see why so many people get so darned
>emotional over this whole Fuzion thing. Hero System is not dead and we have a
>number of 4th Ed books lined up for release next year, so that whole issue is
>water under the bridge. So again I wonder, why the fuss over Fuzion?
>
> Mark @ GRG
I think one of the main reasons that people got so upset was that it came out
of the blue. One minute Peterson and Company was pumping us (those on the
list) for information to make a new and improved fifth edition of the Hero
System and the next Fuzion is dropped in our laps. Then they tried to tell us
that it was "just like" hero and easily adapted and that this was to replace
5th edition to obtain a new market. Frankly whether it is or isn't adaptable
isn't the point. There are a lot of people who like the hero system and a lot
of people felt they got the shaft especially with Peterson getting everyone's
hopes up for a fifth edition. Thats why fuzion is such a sore spot.
From: Egyptoid <Egyptoid@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 00:53:33 EST
Subject: Re: Re: AD&D Fantasy HERO conversion...
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>http://www.planetx.org/~joe/gaming/dh.html
That is a RIGHTEOUS site. I use his material all
the time. Highly recommended.
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 01:02:54 EST
Subject: Re: So What Now?
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Lots of well reasoned suggestions. Thank you.
<< I wish that GRG would be doing Usagi in HERO 4th, not Fuzion. Why was that
done? Just b/c it's easier to stick the 'condensed' Fuzion rules into the
book? >>
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 01:06:05 EST
Subject: Re: So What Now?
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< I wish that GRG would be doing Usagi in HERO 4th, not Fuzion. Why was that
done? Just b/c it's easier to stick the 'condensed' Fuzion rules into the
book?>>
No. Because Stan Sakai made it clear that he wanted a simple game system in
the Usagi Yojimbo RPG, because he wanted it to be "kid friendly" (my words,
not his). And let's face it -- Hero System is *not* kid friendly.
I wanted the Usagi license in a *big* way <G>, so I went with Fuzion. Well,
with Instant Fuzion, to be precise. It works, and we're going to be posting
4th Ed stats for the characters, so you get all the source material *and* the
characters in both Fuzion and Hero System. Best of both worlds. Oh, and the
Instant Fuzion rules fitting onto one page was a really big plus, IMO. ;)
Mark @ GRG
X-Sender: naneiden@iswest.com
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 22:09:01 -0800
From: Nic Neidenbach <naneiden@iswest.com>
Subject: Re: So What Now?
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At 12:13 AM 12/19/97 EST, you wrote:
><< Well, I think that there is a greater issue at stake. aming *as a
hobby* is
>dying, not just 4th Ed. >>
>
> I disagree.
>
As do I. IT's harder now to find people, but not dying. At the Stratigicons
in LA, it's not impossible to find people to RP with, but it is hard to
find games to play. We need to start GMing more games at these kinds of
places, we should all work to create more places for people to play
Champions at. The more people see it being played. The more they'll want to
know about it. If GRG can get the product to the dealers and store owners,
they're doing their part. We, as GMs and players, need to talk the game up,
play it visibly.
You know what would be great? A 4th edition champions Tshirt, like so many
of the other RPGs have. :) With a cool, action picture on it.
><< With video games and CCGs, it is getting harder and harder to find gamers
>(or at least in my area [L.A.]). >>
>
> Things slowed down a bit with the boom in the CCG industry, but that's
>leveling off nicely now, IMO. Besides, a number of companies are doing things
>to bring new players into the hobby (us included).
>
Fortunately, some CCGs are going directly to RPGs, such as Legend of the
Five Rings. This is a way to get some of the card players into RPGs.
Now the way to get more of them playing RPGs isn't to lament the passing of
the RPG age, but to instead create opportunities for people to RP. I found
that at some of the local L.A. area conventions no one is running
Champions. So a friend of mine and I created a Hero System game based on
the anime Silent Mobius. Using ideas Michael Surbrook came up with, and my
own, we had to turn away people, we had so many. Some came for the anime
theme, but most had never heard of it. They were just there to play Hero.
Unfortunately, with all that enthusiasm, the only RPG item related to
Champions or the Hero system in the dealer's room was the free 'Champions:
The New Millennium' button and old adventures in a used game bin.
><< But I think that you are already taking steps to try and get more players.
>I think your decision to advertise in Astro City is a great idea. This is a
>widely read and respected comic book, and if you can even get Kurt Busiak to
>plug San Angelo in his letter column (which he does on a regular basis), a
>whole lot of new people may be getting wind of the game. >>
>
> He said he was going to plug it, and we have a quote of his to use in
the ad
>(and on the book). PLus the Usagi RPG uses Instant Fuzion, which will make it
>easy for new (young) gamers to get into the hobby.
>
Kurt's a great comic book writer, I'm glad he's giving you his support.
Anyone read Thunderbolts #11? Great stuff. :)
About my only other idea is word of mouth. We should all talk up GRG's
products. (Assuming they're any good. ;)
-Nic
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 23:39:37 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Regeneration of Limbs, and Body Parts
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Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
> > Surely, you mean, "underpriced?" Aids have upper limits to the amount of
> > damage that they can cure: 6 points per die plus any extra points bought.
> > Once a point of BODY is Aided, that Aid counts against the maximum of any
> > Aid to BODY until the BODY would have healed naturally. This is a
>
> Um. This is a house rule. It is not supported in the BBB.
Sigh!
Hero System Rules, page 58, description of Aid, second paragraph:
The maximum number of Character Points that can be added to
a specific Power or Characteristic is equal to the highest
number that could be rolled on the Aid dice. This maximum can
be increased by 2 points for every 1 Character Point spent.
And again, in the third paragraph:
Even if two different characters use separate Aid Powers, teh
maximum number of points that can be healed or added to a target
is equal to the largest maximum that can be rolled on either
Power. So one character with a 2d6 Aid can add 12 points to
a target, two characters, each with 1d6 Aid, can only add
6 points to a target.
So, it is explicitly stated that the maximum applies to "healing" Aid as
well as to "boost" Aid. Now, not only do they authors state a rule in
Paragraph 2, and clarify and support it in Paragraph 3, in an astonishing
display of consistency, they cite an example to prove their point.
Obviously, this is what confused you. ;-)
The Medic example buys the following power:
60 6D6 Aid/All Characteristics below starting value(+2) [90 active]
Only to starting value (-1/2)
The book then goes on to state
The maximum that he can restore is 36 Character Points to
each (the maximum that could be rolled on the dice).
Thus, he could "heal" a maximum of 18 BODY, 36 STUN, and
72 END to any one character -- although doing so might require
a few rolls.
While I agree that it is a matter of interpretation that a point "healed"
no longer applies against the maximum once it would have been recovered
anyway, I see no other reasonable way to play it.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 23:58:01 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Incomplete Characters [Long]
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Hash: SHA1
This sounds very cool. Please tell me the web page? (I'm always up
for more rules! Must....have...more...rules....:) )
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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 01:16:37 -0800
From: Darrin Kelley <flashbak@pacbell.net>
Reply-To: flashbak@pacbell.net
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: The Future of Hero 4.
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GoldRushG wrote:
> So what can we (GRG) do about this negative perception of Hero
> products and
> the surivability of 4th Edition? I'm open to suggestions (but please
> re-title
> any posts that drift from the topic <G>).
Now, it's time for me to get into the fray. And yes, I am going to
admit from the outset that I am going to address a variety of topics in
this message.
Fuzion. The people at Hero made alot of promises they didn't keep
with that system. That is it easily compatible and convertable with 4th
Edition. It is not. They said that it should boost sales and attention
to 4th Edition, it did not. And most importantly, they didn't even
complete the game before putting it on the market. Which, justifiably,
got alot of consumers angry. Myself being one of them.
And yes, alot of Hero 4 fans are really angry because many believe,
with some foundation in fact, that the company that we have been
supporting for years had turned their backs on us. Myself, again being
one of them.
So, what future does Hero 4 have? I think it has a signoficant one.
If you guys at Gold Rush can shoulder the load. The first priority is to
get a consistant and high quality product line out for Hero 4. Something
that even Hero Games itself had problems doing. Which will give the fans
what they want and and draw new fans in. getting the rulebook back into
print and widely available is also necessary to get the game back into
the public eye. I'd say, you are making a very good start with San
Angelo.
But I have one major suggestion that you should consider deeply
before commiting your resources to the extent that is necessary to save
this game system: And that is to do whatever it takes to buy out Hero
Games.
Personally, I see Gold Rush as the one and only hope for the future
that the Hero System has. But you have a long and hard road to follow.
You need to win back the confidence of the fans. Which will only be done
by actions, instead of unkept promises. What I have highlighted above
may do just that. I really hope you succeed.
But there is a general complaint that I have had with most of the
Champions supplements that needs to be addressed also. Most of the books
have been collections of characters or weaponry. Very few, if ever, have
managed to capture the heroic element that is so integral to the genre
itself. In fact, even the Champions rulebook itself, has never really
done anything to illustrate that element. What I believe needs to be
done in a 5th Edition, besides some rules fixes and the addition of more
examples, is a better and more detailed explanation of the superhero
genre and the very atmosphere itself. Especially with emphasis put on
the heroic element itself.
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 04:51:53 EST
Subject: Re: So What Now?
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< ADVERTISE.
put out adds in Shadis, Previews, Duelist, Gen13, X-Men, JLA, Astro City,
Spawn, WitchBlade, Avengers, Fantastic Four. >>
Well, we do have ads in Shadis and an upcoming ad in Astro City. As for the
other titles, advertising in them is prohibitively expensive for us right now.
<< It may cost an arm and a leg to advertise, it may not. But it will pay off.
>>
They certainly would, but even at a "paltry" $10 per thousand copies,
advertising in a mainstream comic which sells a million copies would cost
$10,000!!! That's money we just don't have right now.
<< Your best option is a full page add split 50-50 Hero 4th and Champions:NM.
>>
We've thought about that, and may still do it. Co-op ads with Hero Games/RTG
are a good deal for us. I agree with you that they'd be effective. Something
like the 4th Ed Dr. Destroyer facing off with the C:NM version Dr.
Destroyer...? ;) "Either way you slice it, it comes up world domination!" :D
<< SOMEBODY hire their marketing team for Hero please.>>
We'd love to, believe me. ;)
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 05:07:04 EST
Subject: Re: The Future of Hero 4.
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< Fuzion. The people at Hero made alot of promises they didn't keep with that
system. That is it easily compatible and convertable with 4th Edition. It is
not. >>
I disagree. I have run games in which half the players had 4th Ed.
characters and the other half had Fuzion characters. I guess I am more
familiar with Fuzion than most of the "I can't stand Fuzion" crowd for obvious
reasons, but I still don't see what's so difficult about the conversion
process. :/ Anyway, on to your points.
<< They said that it should boost sales and attention to 4th Edition, it did
not. >>
Yikes. I hadn't heard this one! :D
<< And most importantly, they didn't even complete the game before putting it
on the market. Which, justifiably, got alot of consumers angry. Myself being
one of them.>>
Well, if a game was truly incomplete it would frustrate me, too. However,
you are comparing Fuzion to 4th Ed. To include *all* of the variety 4th Ed.
has would have doubled the size of the C:NM book. But anyway, I'm not trying
to argue with you, so I'll limit my comments and read on. ;)
<< And yes, alot of Hero 4 fans are really angry because many believe, with
some foundation in fact, that the company that we have been supporting for
years had turned their backs on us. Myself, again being one of them. >>
Hero Games made us their publishers of 4th Ed. books. We are in the same
role (with essentially the same license) that ICE was in 2 years ago. But we
have a smaller staff. ;) Just FYI.
<< So, what future does Hero 4 have? I think it has a signoficant one. If you
guys at Gold Rush can shoulder the load. >>
It's a tall order, but we're working on it.
<< The first priority is to get a consistant and high quality product
line...for Hero 4.>>
I agree with you. Hence, San Angelo: City of Heroes. ;)
<< getting the rulebook back into print and widely available is also necessary
to get the game back into the public eye. I'd say, you are making a very good
start with San Angelo. >>
This is where I start to beat my head against the wall. The rulebook is
*not* out of print. We have a ton of these things (almost literally) and have
been regularly selling them to distributors. *Somebody* is buying them, I
assure you. Why do so many people claim that Champions is out of print? Why,
oh Why?
<< But I have one major suggestion that you should consider deeply before
commiting your resources to the extent that is necessary to save this game
system: And that is to do whatever it takes to buy out Hero Games. >>
Say WHAT?! <LOL> That's really not an option, believe me. Nor is it
something that we want to do. We are happy in our position as a licensed
publisher of Hero products, and once we get the books out (starting next
month! <fingers crossed to ward off a calamity!>) we think the fans will be
amazed!
<< ...you have a long and hard road to follow. You need to win back the
confidence of the fans. >>
Oh, believe me, you don't need to convince me of that fact! It's our number
one priority right now, which explains our more active net (and list)
presence, our ads, our upcoming products, our convention support program, and
our BBB exchange policy.
<< Most of the books have been collections of characters or weaponry. Very
few, if ever, have managed to capture the heroic element that is so integral
to the genre
itself. >>
That's not always easy to do in a game supplement, but it is one of the
things we're keeping under consideration with the San Angelo line. From the
writing, to the campaign setting, to the artwortk, our entire focus is not on
superheroes, but on *being* superheroes.
<< What I believe needs to be done in a 5th Edition,... is a better and more
detailed explanation of the superhero genre and the very atmosphere itself.
Especially with emphasis put on the heroic element itself. >>
Well, I can tell you... Ugh. Scratch that. I can't discuss this topic. ;)
Mark @ GRG
X-Sender: fogi@mail.inter.net.il
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 12:40:02 +0200
From: Ori Folger <fogi@inter.net.il>
Subject: Fantasy Hero
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At 15:17 18/12/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Fantasy Hero stuff should look like a fantasy book or movie poster,
>very fantastic and frazettaish. Star Hero should look very high tech and
>spacey, etc, but be consistent for each one, and have a consistent HERO
>metatheme, as it were, something that identifies them all quickly.
Fantasy Hero stuff does look like a fantasy book or posted. What says
"fantasy" more than a cover by Larry Elmore? The internal drawings are not
as good, but it does have that fantasy feel.
---
Ori Folger (Calanya)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 03:11:14 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Batman & Robin
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David Fair wrote:
>
> I have never been a reader of most DC Comics, but I have begun reading
> some of the compilation books of Batman (Prodigal & Death of Robin, most
> notably). I find the Batman to be one of the most intriguing types of
> super-heros.
>
> That said, could someone explain the reason for Dick Grayson leaving the
> Batman for me? And what is the Origin of the current Robin?
>
> Thanks for your help, It's hard finding answers to old issue questions
> like this...
Hey! Something I actually have a healthy(?) amount of knowledge of.
Way back in the sixties, a bunch of sidekicks and 'junior' heroes
banded together to form the 'Teen Titans', which include Wonder Girl,
Robin, Aqualad and 'Speedy' (an archer, possibly a Green Arrow protoge?)
and o couple of others. It was a silly comic, trying to adopt the mode
of conversation of 'the kids' back then and doing it poorly. Anyway the
book folded and years later, someone revived the concept with the 'Nwe
Teen Titans'.
For a couple if years (real-life years) the team was led by Robin,
who still occasionally worked with Batman, but was primarily not doing
so. There were some real excellent issues dealing with the changing
relationship between Bats and Robin on a couple of occasions.
Finally, Dick Grayson decided that he was done "wearing the costume
[he] put on when [he] was 8 years old" and changed his look and name.
After that, Batman took on a second Robin; Jason Todd. Everybody
hated Jason Todd, and there was a Reader's Vote from DC to decide
whether or not he died at the end of "Death in the Family" - the
four-part story in Batman. He went down in flames.
Batman then vowed that he would not take on another partner. (or was
that from the possible future of "The Dark Night Returns"?) Anyway,
then the current Robin joined him and also does a lot of solo stuff (has
his own title which I guess people like a lot).
I collected Batman for a couple of years during the whole death of
Jason Todd era, and found that Batman, in fact, IS a very well developed
character, conceptually. Having no paranormal powers, nor any Power
Armor or other significant 'synthetic powers' force writers to actually
think about their stories and avoid your generic book-long slugfests
that 'flashier' supers may be able to get away with.
If you like the dynamic you see in Batman, I would highly recommend
trying to find The New Teen Titans, but only for the first 40 - 60
issues. The creative team that made it good trickled away over the
years until it died a welcome death far later than it should have.
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 04:04:13 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...
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GoldRushG wrote:
>
> To be frank, it sounds like there was more disappointment in Hero Games than
> there was in Fuzion, per se'. Am I wrong in this assessment?
>
> I mean, liking a game less than Hero System is fine, but it seems that some
> Hero fans are practically rabid with anger toward Fuzion. This simply seems
> irrational to me.
>
I think it's a combination of both. If Fuzion were simply put out
independantly as 'another superhero RPG' with no mention of
compatability or new direction or anything like that, I imagine many
Hero Gamers may have found it on a shelf at their favorite comic/gaming
shop, perused it and either bought it out of general curiosity or put it
back with a superior sneer. But that was not the case. The first I ever
heard of Fuzion was at LA Con III (WorldCon '96), where they had a
combat demonstration to illustrate the new system. I was unimpressed at
the time, but excited that the actual product may have more to offer. I
started hearing more about it, and indeed, it sounded like Hero Games
would be concentrating on Fuzion and putting Hero on a back burner. But
I was convinced by the hype that the new system would allow me to
continue gaming with my current players, but translate to the new system
to make it easier for those (about half my group) who have never gotten
the hang of the Hero System.
I gained Internet access as soon as I did Primarily so I could
download the online Fuzion rules and be one of the beautiful people.
Finally I had it and was once again not moved. I found it to be more
like GURPS than Hero, for the very reasons that I never liked GURPS as a
Hero alternate.
> Disliking a game is fine; it's normal. Hating a game because the game you
> like better wasn't expanded... that's odd.
Not really odd, because in this case, the game you like better is not
being expanded BECAUSE of the new game being produced. It has seemed to
me that most people on this list would agree that even the creators of
the Fuzion system should know (or have known) that it was NOT everything
they told us it was. Game systems in general have been insulted and
beaten up on occasion, because is somebody's (or manybodys') opinion(s),
they suck. But when the company you are loyal to tries to generate a
new audience, but to a different product, it is seen as an active choice
to not support the current product. Specifically, most people could see
that Fuzion seemed NOT to be the 'gateway' game which would lead to
Hero, as was claimed. I can see the same dynamic happening in the case
of a completely new system/company which doesn't live up to all their
hype, if people believe all the PR they hear, then are 'let down' by the
reality.
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 06:25:58 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
Subject: England & Herozine
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A week or so ago a couple of our British friends, E-mailed me about Herozine
subscriptions. Well, I let my wife play with the PC and those letters are
now lost :-(
If you read this please write to me again.
Thanks,
Michael
Rising Force Publications
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm
Subject: Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 97 07:48:38 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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On 12/18/97 3:06 PM, GoldRushG (GoldRushG@aol.com) Said:
> Heroic Adventures Vol. 1
> Heroic Adventures Vol. 2
> Blood Fury
All three of these supplements were excellent
> Dystopia
I think that one is older than 3 years, but I could be wrong. I did not
find much to reccommend it.
> Foxbat Unhinged
I forgot about that one, mostly because I hate FoxBat.
> Ultimate Supermage
> (Ultimate Martial Artist)
Electronic Reprints of stuff I already have doesn't count as new.
> Widows and Orphans
Didn't realize this one was out yet...
> Atlantis
Absolutely the best work ever to come out of Hero. Period.
> Watchers of the Dragon
> Enemies Assemble!
> Enemies for Hire...
These are all about three years old (right?, at least 2 1/2?)
OK, so there was more than 5, but only 1 was an Ultimate Book, the line
that was the most exciting & "meaty" stuff coming out of Hero. I still
feel let down sometimes (but not as much now that you've pointed out how
much really, came out).
| David A. Fair
Think Different | SDS International
| dfair@sdslink.com
Subject: Re: Green Hornet conversion
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-12,16-22
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 08:25:44 EST
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>
>Actually, since the Hornet mostly faced normals, make it a Stun only
>EB with a -1/4 lim: not vs life support. The fact that people will
>get thier ED (up to what 8, maybe) is irrellevant - so the guy with
>the high con isn't knocked out quite as bad. Try Knocking Out a
>normal with an NND - you'll need at least 6 dice, probably 8 or
>10 if you want to take down the tougher types... and they're supposed
>to sleep for a while!
>
>Now if he's going to be in a regular Champs game, you'll want to
>go for the NND, don't worry about the breath-holding bit... LS
>is an adequate defense...
I'm writing him as a pulp hero (what can I say, I like Justice Inc.).
I'd hate to try scrounging enough points for a gas gun that would KO
supers with one shot! It works better when the Hornet is going against
trained normals.
>BTW, Kudo's for doing the Green Hornet... cool character.
Thanks!
Leah
Subject: Re: Secret to Hero
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From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 08:25:44 EST
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>It's on p. 141 of the 1st printing BBB in the Action Phase Table, and
>it's
>actually listed as 1 Phase to change clothes. I always considered this
>an
>overgenerously short estimate - with my SPD 2 it takes me longer than
>6
>seconds to change clothes, and it probably would even if I were just
>removing them to reveal a costume underneath. (I refuse to test this.)
>
>Nevertheless, I rarely make a costume change a big deal in a superhero
>battle, since it's generally so easy in the comics.
>
It used to take me about half an hour to change into my Klingon hunting
armor back when we had SF cons in this area, but a lot of that time _was_
makeup. I'd guess that the costume itself was good for 10 minutes.
Personally, I agree with both points -- 1 phase to change clothes is way
too short, and it's perfectly reasonable considering the quick-changes
(in often cramped conditions*) in the comics.
*I can't remember which comic this was in, but I remember one scene where
Spidey and Captain America both needed to change into hero ID and looked
(independently, neither knew the other was around) for a place to change.
In the next frame, the two heroes charged out of adjoining restroom
stalls. The double-takes were great!
Leah
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 05:47:27 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 08:51 PM 12/18/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>>>>> "MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> writes:
>
>>> Just remember that Transformation cannot add points to a character, it
>>> can only shift them around or take them away.
>
>MS> What a minute, my copy of the BBB and the HSR says *nothing* about not
>MS> being able to increase the number of points a character has.
>
>"Thou shalt not create useful things with Transformation." :)
>
>Seriously, it reads, "however, Transform shouldn't be used to create useful
>things like weapons or gold."
That's not *quite* the same thing, eh? :-]
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 05:54:41 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: I demand a 6th Edition!
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 02:27 PM 12/18/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>
>If and when the 5th Edition comes out, I just won't be satisfied. I won't
>like some of the costs, there will be some strange paradoxes with speed
>and movement, and it won't let me merge FTL with Clinging. The whole issue
>of nuclear mitosis will have been glossed over, it will be difficult to
>simulate the aspirin commercial genre, and the game will lack a mechanic
>for heroes with high EGO's to suddenly go insane for no adequately
>explained reason and start killing their friends. Also, the spine of my
>book will have broken... I'll make sure of it. We'll definitely need a 6th
>Edition.
>
>I just wanted to be the first to get this demand in.
And folks said *I* was in desperate need of a break... :-]
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 97 08:56:36 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 33
>MS> What a minute, my copy of the BBB and the HSR says *nothing* about not
>MS> being able to increase the number of points a character has.
>
>"Thou shalt not create useful things with Transformation." :)
>
>Seriously, it reads, "however, Transform shouldn't be used to create useful
>things like weapons or gold."
More points does not equate to more useful. A transform of a man into a
tiger ends up adding points, but the tiger is dangerous to be around, and
may attack the transformer (unless another power, like mind control, is
used to prevent this). It could also be hard to explain the presence of a
tiger in a city, or someplace where tigers are not normally found (like
the outback).
and although "Transform shouldn't be used to create useful things like
weapons or gold.", they use just such a transform in their own examples,
on the same page.
| David A. Fair
Think Different | SDS International
| dfair@sdslink.com
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 08:06:25 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 05:33 PM 12/19/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< ergo, the list often asks for an "official
>opinion" on a rules question which comes back "do what you want" >>
>
> What's wrong with that? Why does everything have to be set in stone.
> Part of the beauty of the Hero System *is* it's flexibility and
> adaptability, wouldn't you agree? There is often no "one right way" to
> do something.
There is flexible like my leg, and there is flexible like Joe Theisman's leg. :/
When the player has to make up his own ruling to cover a situation, you've
LEFT the realm of *HERO's* "flexibility and adaptability", and entered that
PLAYER'S flexibility. What's wrong with "do it yourself" is that ANY game
can give you that. I can roleplay using the rules of chess if I want to,
using the same winging skills I need to cover the "do what you want" moments
in HERO; I'd still be insane to claim that chess is a flexible game system.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good |
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 06:15:46 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: So What Now?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 04:39 PM 12/18/97 -0500, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>> So what can we (GRG) do about this negative perception of Hero products
and
>>the surivability of 4th Edition? I'm open to suggestions (but please
re-title
>>any posts that drift from the topic <G>).
>
>First of all, HERO has to go on a media blitz to convince gamers and
>distrubutors that HERO Games DOES still exist. Send posters to games shops
>and the like.
*Either* Hero or GRG should do this.
[For some reason, every time I see "GRG" I want to pronounce it "Greg."]
>Fifth, take a distintive format and stick to it. Look at Heavy Gear from
>Dream Pod 9. All the books in the Heavy Gear line have distinctive black and
>yellow striping on the covers. Very slick. Some efforts were made in this
>direction by HERO (TUMA and TUM and Watchers of the Dragon all have
>'similar' cover layouts), but most of the HERO product line is a visual
pizza.
Nearly everything from TUMA forward had this distinctive style, though
some fit it less than others. HSA2, Justice Not Law, Murderer's Row, An
Eye For An Eye, Corporations, Golden Age Champions, Pyramid In the Sky,
Hudson City Blues, Enemies For Hire, Enemies Assemble, and Atlantis all
fall in this category.
To all the general clamor, I'd like to add: revive Adventurer's Club!
Do this and you'll definitely have a regular subscriber (and probably
contributor) in me!
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 06:22:43 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: So What Now?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 10:09 PM 12/18/97 -0800, Nic Neidenbach wrote:
>At 12:13 AM 12/19/97 EST, you wrote:
>><< Well, I think that there is a greater issue at stake. aming *as a
>hobby* is
>>dying, not just 4th Ed. >>
>>
>> I disagree.
>
>As do I. IT's harder now to find people, but not dying. At the Stratigicons
>in LA, it's not impossible to find people to RP with, but it is hard to
>find games to play. We need to start GMing more games at these kinds of
>places, we should all work to create more places for people to play
>Champions at. The more people see it being played. The more they'll want to
>know about it. If GRG can get the product to the dealers and store owners,
>they're doing their part. We, as GMs and players, need to talk the game up,
>play it visibly.
Right! Let's start running some Champs and other Hero games at cons!
(Maybe I can playtest Chaos Theory at a con next summer, or something...)
We're not dead, just a little sick (but then, you already knew that).
>You know what would be great? A 4th edition champions Tshirt, like so many
>of the other RPGs have. :) With a cool, action picture on it.
The covers of all three extant Ultimate books are pretty cool for
starters. And some of the stuff based on Stick Figure Theatre would
probably (IMO) sell well even to people who'd never heard of Champions.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 06:25:15 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: So What Now?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 04:51 AM 12/19/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< Your best option is a full page add split 50-50 Hero 4th and Champions:NM.
>>>
>
> We've thought about that, and may still do it. Co-op ads with Hero
Games/RTG
>are a good deal for us. I agree with you that they'd be effective. Something
>like the 4th Ed Dr. Destroyer facing off with the C:NM version Dr.
>Destroyer...? ;) "Either way you slice it, it comes up world
domination!" :D
This is the line of thought I had when I first saw that statement. My
version was more like the two versions of Quantum: "Either way you slice
it, it comes up big trouble for crooks!"
Hey, I think we have a good ad campaign idea going here....
Subject: Inhibit Characteristic (AKA: SLipperiness)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 97 09:26:18 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 34
On 12/18/97 10:23 PM, Marc Seebass (kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net) Said:
>I'm thinking their should be a new power that works basically is an affect
>resisted by a stat roll. Slipperyness would work on dex, Paralysis from
>venom on Con, and mental paralysis on Ego, etc. This would make a lot of
>power concepts easier to create.
Inhibit Characteristic
This standard power lets a character inhibit the use of one or more of a
targets characteristics, forcing them to make a standard characteristic
roll just to use that characteristic, or any powers that would use it as
a base. Success on the CHAR roll means the target may act normally;
Failure to succeed results in the target being unable to use that
Characteristic until his next phase. Other consequences may be
appropriate, and would need to be determined by the GM. The GM may
determine some targets would be unaffected, due to the presence of other
powers, based on special effects (For example, High pressure fields [STR
Inhibit] would not affect a character with LS:High Pressure)
If the attacker continues to pay the END cost, the the target would get a
new roll at the beginning of each of his phases, with the appropriate
modifiers as follows: For each roll after the first, a modifier should be
applied to reflect the success or failures of the previous consecutive
rolls, with each consecutive success giving a +1 to the target number,
and each consecutive failure giving a -1 to the target number. Thus:
GoodGuy is chasing the evil villian IcePatch. Ice Patch uses his
Inhibit DEX power (S/FX, an Ice Patch) to stop the CapedWonder.
The first phaze that he is hit with the power (ie, runs out onto
the Ice), he makes his dex roll (needed a 15 or less, got a 9) the
next phaze (IcePatch is pumping out the END to stop the pursuit),
he needs a 16 or less, an makes it again (14). IcePatch is getting
nervous. On his third phaze GoodGuy needs a 17 or less to be
unaffected by the DEX Inhibit, but fails when he rolls an 18. The
GM rules that as a result of losing the ability to use his DEX,
GoodGuy will fall down, and his momentum will slide him forward 3".
On his next phaze, if IcePatch stays around to continue the attack,
GoodGuy will need to roll a 14 or less to get up, which will cost
him a half-phaze action.
The cost is 20 points for one target, +5 points for 2x targets. Making a
char roll takes no time, to make the char roll cost a mandatory 1/2-phaze
action costs +10 points. Some possible Special Effects are:
STR: High Pressure Field
DEX: Oil Or Ice Slick
CON: Toxin or Disease
INT: Mental Scambling
EGO: Mental Paralysis
PRE: Fear Attack
COM: Bad Lighting (OK, so I watched Seinfeld last night...)
PD: Pain Intensification
ED: Ditto
REC: Toxin or Disease
END: *Use Drain Instead*
STN: *Use an appropriate damage-causing attack power instead*
I dunno, this was just off of the top of my head...whatta ya'll think?
| David A. Fair
Think Different | SDS International
| dfair@sdslink.com
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 06:31:00 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: use full disadvantages
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 09:04 AM 12/18/97 -0600, Curt Hicks wrote:
>Has it been most people's experience that players always max out on the
>allowed disadvantages ?
My Fantasy Hero pbem is the first game I've played where this hasn't
happened. The guideline I gave players was, "Anywhere from 75 to 125
points' worth of Disadvantages, dependong on how complicated you want your
character's life to be." For this, I got submissions in the full range;
only one is maxed out (that I can think of).
Subject: Re: So What Now? (Advertising Idea)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 97 09:36:27 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 35
>Something like the 4th Ed Dr. Destroyer facing off with the
> C:NM version Dr. Destroyer...? ;) "Either way you slice it, it comes
> up world domination!" :D
Boy that sounds good, I would love to see a poster like that at a gaming
shop...
| David A. Fair
Think Different | SDS International
| dfair@sdslink.com
Subject: Re: Incomplete Characters [Long]
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 97 09:36:29 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 36
On 12/19/97 12:23 AM, Opal (Opal@october.com) Said:
>Actually, James Jandebuer <jimalj@best.com> also known as the
>Gaming Philosopher, is the primary authoer of the incompolet
>rules. I did help (mainly Rigid Armor - there I admitted it -
>and Internal Spaces - which I'm a bit more proud of) :)
Sorry about the misattribution, I had thought they you two might be one
and the same (screen names/aliases being what they are and all).
| David A. Fair
Think Different | SDS International
| dfair@sdslink.com
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:50:24 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: So What Now?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 37
><< I wish that GRG would be doing Usagi in HERO 4th, not Fuzion. Why was that
>done? Just b/c it's easier to stick the 'condensed' Fuzion rules into the
>book?>>
>
> No. Because Stan Sakai made it clear that he wanted a simple game system in
>the Usagi Yojimbo RPG, because he wanted it to be "kid friendly" (my words,
>not his). And let's face it -- Hero System is *not* kid friendly.
Really? I wonder about the demographic of Usagi readers - I'd have bet
they're mostly older comic book readers. Once you abandon the 'funny
animals' concept around ten years old, it takes a while for most people to
even give it a chance.
> I wanted the Usagi license in a *big* way <G>
That just shows that you're no fool ^_^.
>, so I went with Fuzion. Well,
>with Instant Fuzion, to be precise. It works, and we're going to be posting
>4th Ed stats for the characters,
Hmm. Will there be a small section in the book called 'Playing Usagi in 4th
Edition HERO?'. IMHO every Fusion product should have one of these sections.
> so you get all the source material *and* the
>characters in both Fuzion and Hero System. Best of both worlds. Oh, and the
>Instant Fuzion rules fitting onto one page was a really big plus, IMO. ;)
Yeah, you have lots more room for source material. Oh, the characters in 4th
edition; could you _please_ make sure that they're posted in plain .txt
format? Please, please, please, please, please??? Not .pdf, or at the very
least in addition to .pdf?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:50:28 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: So What Now?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 38
> I was told by a con-rep for a major west coast distributor that
>the RPG 'Heavy Gear' didn't sell at first. But then it flooded the stores
>with several suppliments and flashy fliers. This created a perception that
>it was a big thing. Perception being reality everybody wanted in on the 'fad'
>and bought it. At this point Heavy Gear has been around for 2 years, sold
>out on four printings, shipping a second edition this week, and selling a
>second product as well as having just been 'aquired' for license into a PC
>computer game which is in the stores now.
> SOMEBODY hire their marketing team for Hero please.
I just have to throw in a plug for Dream Pod 9 at this point. Heavy Gear is
a _great_ mecha game, and a good RPG with clean, fast mechanics and a
fantastic background. IMHO, HERO always failed in the vehicle department
(whether or not TUSV changes that remains to be seen). I highly recommend
that HERO and GRG take a good long look at DP9's methods - both on
production and promotion. In fact, several of the staffers have highly
visible net presences and are just plain nice guys.
Don't get me wrong. I love HERO, and it'll always be my choice for superhero
gaming (heck, for most genres). But HERO and GRG could learn a lot from
Dream Pod 9. Heck, they'd probably be happy to help (boosting the industry
in general is always a good idea, and I know for a fact that DP9 has _no_
plans at all to do a superhero/multigenre game).
As for the 'marketing' team, DP9 works along with Target Games as far as
licensing is concerned. As for marketing to the RPG world, they started from
net presence and worked their way up from there (like having rabid fans beg
their games shop to stock the stuff...worked for me!). And yes, they do make
use of the slicker advertising methods, like free posters and flyers at
stores, plus, even a 'free' (some stores charged a buck for it) mini-game
with all the relevant mecha fighting rules so people could 'try before they
buy'. Plus they have a great miniature line through RAFM (though RAFM's
quality control sometimes has serious problems :-( ).
Anyway, if HERO products came out with the quality levels of DP9 stuff, I'd
probably croak from sheer joy.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 06:51:33 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Inhibit Characteristic (AKA: SLipperiness)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 09:26 AM 12/19/97 -0500, David Fair wrote:
>The cost is 20 points for one target, +5 points for 2x targets. Making a
>char roll takes no time, to make the char roll cost a mandatory 1/2-phaze
>action costs +10 points. Some possible Special Effects are:
> STR: High Pressure Field
> DEX: Oil Or Ice Slick
> CON: Toxin or Disease
> INT: Mental Scambling
> EGO: Mental Paralysis
> PRE: Fear Attack
> COM: Bad Lighting (OK, so I watched Seinfeld last night...)
> PD: Pain Intensification
> ED: Ditto
> REC: Toxin or Disease
> END: *Use Drain Instead*
> STN: *Use an appropriate damage-causing attack power instead*
>
>I dunno, this was just off of the top of my head...whatta ya'll think?
I usually like (at least in general feel) new rules posted to the List,
but I really have to say that this has several problems with it.
The two biggest ones are, first, most of the effects can be simulated
just as well (or nearly so) with Drain or Suppress. Fear is more of a Mind
Control (Based on CON if you have to).
Second, the ones that can't, just aren't simulated very well. I mean, a
slick area is a lot more than just a DEX Roll to stay standing. Your
ability to accelerate and decelerate are affected. If you're running
across the area and try to make a turn, that's affected. And then there
are a lot of functions that wouldn't require a DEX Roll.
Another thing: is this an Instant Power with a constant effect (like
Entangle or Transform), or a Constant Power? I got the impression that
this is Constant, which makes it useless for things like oil slicks or
Zambonis, whose effects stay around for a while.
I really hate to give a bit of work like this such a drubbing; I really
do think you may have the start of a good idea here. I just needs to be
better defined, and maybe broadened a bit. It has the potential for slick
areas that need to be maintained, and possibly for gravity fields (STR
Inhibition). Try taking some ideas from the proposed Slipperiness Power.
(Whose is that again? Bill's?)
From: "Marc Seebass" <kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: New power idea
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:06:50 -0600
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
-----Original Message-----
From: C. Badger <wbandsis@westco.net>
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Thursday, December 18, 1997 10:51 PM
Subject: Re: New power idea
>At 21:23 12/18/97 -0600, Marc Seebass wrote:
>>I'm thinking their should be a new power that works basically is an affect
>>resisted by a stat roll. Slipperyness would work on dex, Paralysis from
>>venom on Con, and mental paralysis on Ego, etc. This would make a lot of
>>power concepts easier to create.
>
>Sounds like drain vs a stat.
>Slipperiness: drain vs Dex only while on surface (-1/4)
>Mental PAralysis: drain vs ego or stun
>Weakness: drain vs strength
>Paralysis: drain vs con or str since a str 0 person will have a lot of
>trouble moving.
>(Possibly add a +1/2 or +1 advantage for making the drain work on the lower
>of two stats. like in the case of the paralysis. Of course this advantage
>would have a magnifying glass to signal gm approval.)
>Slowness gun: drain vs speed
>Sluggish/Energy level drain: Drain vs recovery (you can use your endurance
>just once gone takes forever to get back)
>
No it doesn't. I've never liked the idea of sliperyness as a drain to dex.
You can still move with a lower dex. The mechanic is more of cludge than
using entangle for sliperyness.
From: TOMMY.ASHTON@ASU.Edu
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 08:41:07 -0700 (MST)
Subject: unsubscribing
X-Sender: ashton2@email2.asu.edu
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
List,
I hate to waiste bandwidth like this but does anybody know how to
unsubscribe. I tried sending an unsubscribe message and I am still
getting messages.
Thank you for your time,
T
X-Sender: empulse@usa.net (Unverified)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 08:00:52 -0800
From: Nic Neidenbach <naneiden@iswest.com>
Subject: Ad Campaign (Was: So What Now?)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 06:25 AM 12/19/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 04:51 AM 12/19/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
>><< Your best option is a full page add split 50-50 Hero 4th and
Champions:NM.
>>>>
>>
>> We've thought about that, and may still do it. Co-op ads with Hero
>Games/RTG
>>are a good deal for us. I agree with you that they'd be effective. Something
>>like the 4th Ed Dr. Destroyer facing off with the C:NM version Dr.
>>Destroyer...? ;) "Either way you slice it, it comes up world
>domination!" :D
>
> This is the line of thought I had when I first saw that statement. My
>version was more like the two versions of Quantum: "Either way you slice
>it, it comes up big trouble for crooks!"
> Hey, I think we have a good ad campaign idea going here....
Okay, I have to do it before someone else does;
An ad with both versions of Seeker getting beat senseless:
"Either way you slice it, it's still Seeker!" ;)
-Nic
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| naneiden@iswest.com |
| Justice, Like Lightning, Thunderbolts! |
| http://www.iswest.com/~naneiden/comics/thunder.html |
| Costumed Heroines |
| http://www.iswest.com/~naneiden/comics/index.html |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 10:17:31 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: So What Now?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 04:38 PM 12/19/97 -0800, Richard G Schwerdtfeger wrote:
> When I was a kid 10 years ago (and I'm 25 now), Conventions would
> literally be crawling with kids my age or younger, eager to play any
> kind of RPG. (And I took good advantage of that...I spent at least
> one game session a day on games I had never played before. I exposed
> myself to all sorts of cool games that way. But I digress...)
[Clip]
> Maybe this is just Los Angeles, and other parts of the country are
> just overflowing with young gamers. But haven't seen that many lately.
Maybe I'm just getting cynical in my old age (he said tongue in cheek, being
24), but frankly a hundred times as many "young gamers" wouldn't seem like
much of an improvement to me. RPGs strike me as being an activity unsuited
to most people gamer beneath college age; roleplaying is a primarily mental
activity, and it takes a certain amount of time to develop the necessary
"brain muscles". (It also takes a certain amount of things called "money"
and "free time", which also happen to coincide more with college age ...)
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good |
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 10:30:26 -0600 (CST)
Subject: use full disadvantages
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
>
> At 09:04 AM 12/18/97 -0600, Curt Hicks wrote:
> >Has it been most people's experience that players always max out on the
> >allowed disadvantages ?
>
> My Fantasy Hero pbem is the first game I've played where this hasn't
> happened. The guideline I gave players was, "Anywhere from 75 to 125
> points' worth of Disadvantages, dependong on how complicated you want your
> character's life to be." For this, I got submissions in the full range;
> only one is maxed out (that I can think of).
>
It's been my experience that all of my players max out, and I can't think
of any characters that I've done that haven't been maxed out on the disadvantages. The point was made earlier that if the GM **enforces** the disads so
that they're truly a problem, this begins to cure the players. However, I
personally had trouble playing up all the disadvantages for all of my players.
Curt
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com>
Subject: Re: Dead Duplicates
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:34:43 -0500
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Bob G wrote:
>Now, a dead duplicate isn't actually a dead character; it's a dead
>*part* of a character. So what if that +1/4 Advantage could be
>somehow applied to allow the character to recover lost Duplicates?
That's a very good point. I wish I'd thought of it years ago when I
wrote my long-ish article on duplication. For those interested, it's at
http://www.geocities.com/area51/cavern/1905/haym11.html.
Dave Mattingly
X-Sender: mlknight@pop.mindspring.com
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:42:14 -0700
From: Michelle Knight <mlknight@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: So What Now?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 10:09 PM 12/18/97 -0800, Nic Neidenbach wrote:
>You know what would be great? A 4th edition champions Tshirt, like so many
>of the other RPGs have. :) With a cool, action picture on it.
Yes! Yes! Yes!
>Now the way to get more of them playing RPGs isn't to lament the passing of
>the RPG age, but to instead create opportunities for people to RP. I found
>that at some of the local L.A. area conventions no one is running
>Champions. So a friend of mine and I created a Hero System game based on
>the anime Silent Mobius. Using ideas Michael Surbrook came up with, and my
>own, we had to turn away people, we had so many. Some came for the anime
>theme, but most had never heard of it. They were just there to play Hero.
Same here. This year, at a local convention here in Phoenix, AZ, me
and two other of my former gaming group decided to run something simple --
a Danger Room -- and like Nic we had to turn people away (there were even
more people hanging around just watching). We were even thinking about
running it the next day, but because of time constraints, was not able to.
We even had one teenage girl playing in it as well as an adult woman.
There is hope. :)
Michelle
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:48:18 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Inhibit Characteristic (AKA: SLipperiness)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Fri, 19 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> At 09:26 AM 12/19/97 -0500, David Fair wrote:
> >The cost is 20 points for one target, +5 points for 2x targets. Making a
> >char roll takes no time, to make the char roll cost a mandatory 1/2-phaze
> >action costs +10 points. Some possible Special Effects are:
> > STR: High Pressure Field
> > DEX: Oil Or Ice Slick
[snip]
>
> I really hate to give a bit of work like this such a drubbing; I really
> do think you may have the start of a good idea here. I just needs to be
> better defined, and maybe broadened a bit. It has the potential for slick
> areas that need to be maintained, and possibly for gravity fields (STR
> Inhibition). Try taking some ideas from the proposed Slipperiness Power.
> (Whose is that again? Bill's?)
>
Yes, it was mine - please take anything you want from it. You might also
want to do some borrowing from my expanded CE to deal with the effects on
different Characteristics. I suspect, though, that any thorough treatment
of this is going to end up as complicated as the expanded CE. Either we
end up with a power specifically created to deal with slipperiness, a
broad power vaguely defined, or a broad power with a complicated set of
specific rules.
I agree with Bob's criticisms, including the ones I've snipped. But like
him, I'm also curious to see where you can go with this.
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:53:42 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Incomplete Characters [Long]
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On 18 Dec 1997, Opal wrote:
> Actually, James Jandebuer <jimalj@best.com> also known as the
> Gaming Philosopher, is the primary authoer of the incompolet
> rules. I did help (mainly Rigid Armor - there I admitted it -
> and Internal Spaces - which I'm a bit more proud of) :)
>
Rigid Armor is one of my problems with the Incomplete Rules as they
currently stand - it makes it difficult to do robots who take STUN
normally. The Internal Spaces power, though, is brilliant!
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 19 Dec 1997 11:54:13 -0500
Lines: 29
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>>>>> "DF" == David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> writes:
>> Seriously, it reads, "however, Transform shouldn't be used to create
>> useful things like weapons or gold."
DF> More points does not equate to more useful.
It doesn't? 20 inches of Flight is not more useful than 10 inches? 15D6EB
is not more useful than 12D6?
Fooled me.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 19 Dec 1997 11:57:56 -0500
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>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
>> Seriously, it reads, "however, Transform shouldn't be used to create
>> useful things like weapons or gold."
BG> That's not *quite* the same thing, eh? :-]
It is even more sweeping than the old wording because it is less specific.
The two examples given are things that a charcter would normally have to
spend points to obtain (HKA, EB, etc., and the perqs that give a character
varying degrees of wealth).
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin.
\
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:49:37 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: If you play it, they will come...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
I've been reading through most of the GRG related threads and I've noticed
in the "So what now?" thread a lot of people have been saying, "I've played
it at a con or store and got great turn outs." This should be proof enough
that Hero is not dead. For a while there, I was running a game at my local
comic store with 12 players in it and another 4 to 5 sitting around watching
the game. The table wouldn't hold anymore, but they were waiting for people
to drop out so they could join in. My point being this, Hero is not dead.
When I mentioned of starting it up again at the comic store, 4 or 5 people
came up to me after I was done talking with the manager and they wanted to
play already. I was just tossing around the idea and they overheard me and
they are ready. It is our job as well as Hero and GRG to get Hero in the
public eye. There are only so many GMs though and only so many places where
the game can be exposed. Just an opinion here, but it would be nice to see
some official presence at local cons wherever and whenever possible. I know
that it can't always be possible, but a Gold Rush Games or Hero Games table
would go over better than one might think. I feel that the player's are out
there but it seems there just aren't that many who are motivated. If
someone else gets the game together they are ready to play. Just my two
cents worth, take it easy and talk at you later.
Sparx
=====================================================
Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:54:57 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Genre Book: The Dark World...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
I know Hero Games put out Horror Hero and I loved it myself. I just thought
of a genre book while typing my last post about playing at the comic book
store and cons. Right now it seems that the gaming groups are turning
toward a more "shudder" darker side. Why, I myself am no big fan of the
Horror genre, a lot can be said for what White Wolf is doing right now in
the local area. The majority of games that do well around here are White
Wolf Vampire games. With this in mind, I would suggest a genre book along
the lines of a Dark World. Don't try to go head - to - head with White
Wolf. It is a losing battle with a lot of those players. I suggested
running a Vampire game with Hero rules and they scoffed at me, me! But
seriously, a book that explores a darker world at night where the players
could be vampires, werewolves, ghosts, psychics, gargoyles, etc... may sell
very well if advertised close but not in competition with the White Wolf
idea. And if the genre book could contain all the rules for different
creatures of the night then it would sure beat buying a book for each type,
clan, etc. I know this may sound a lot like Horror Hero reprinted, but in
the same way it is not. Well, just a suggestion. Take it easy and talk at
you later.
Sparx
=====================================================
Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 97 13:06:43 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On 12/19/97 11:54 AM, Stainless Steel Rat (ratinox@peorth.gweep.net) Said:
>DF> More points does not equate to more useful.
>
>It doesn't? 20 inches of Flight is not more useful than 10 inches? 15D6EB
>is not more useful than 12D6?
>
>Fooled me.
If you transform an entity (be it a rock, a person or a planet) and
increase it's total point cost, it may be more expensive, but it will not
neccessarily be more useful _TO YOU_. It may not be useful to you _AT
ALL_. It might be pissed off and attack you, it might not do what you
want, it might revert (heal) before it can be of use to you.
And isn't a sword more points than a dagger? And isn't that a valid
transform as illustrated in the BBB? Perhaps the dagger isn't less
useful, but useful differently. Maybe the writers of the BBB realised
that more points isn't the same as more useful, but could be the same as
differently useful? Maybe they could see the forest for the trees?
| David A. Fair
Think Different | SDS International
| dfair@sdslink.com
X-Originating-IP: [206.88.2.1]
From: "Todd Hanson" <badtodd@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: So what now?
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 12:37:15 CST
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Somebody has already mentioned the lack of Champions/Hero games at
conventions. I would have to echo that sentiment. I went to GenCon for
the first time this year and was sorely disappointed in the number of
Champions/Hero games that were being run. The games that WERE run were
almost always pre-filled, with people standing around hoping for a
no-show so that they could sit in. Obviously the INTEREST in the game
is there...
Another thing that could go a LONG way towards improving Hero's image
(and increasing its player-base): recruit some GOOD experienced GM's to
run games at conventions. Heck, if you could get some of the 'official'
hero people to run some games, that would be perfect!
I played in most of the Champions games at GenCon, and I would have to
say that for the most part.. they stunk. Maybe I've gotten spoiled (and
extremely lucky) to have played under some very good GMs over the years,
so I know what a GOOD Champions game is like, but for the people there
that played it for the first time? Many of them flat out said after the
game, 'This game sucks, Im never playing Champions again'.
Unfortunately it was some bad GMs, and not a bad system that lost you
some potential new customers. If those players first Champions
experience had been under a good GM? They might still be playing today.
I would think that GenCon would be big enough to warrent the attention
of someone 'official' (especially since so many of them were there
anyway)
Todd
side note to Geoff: don't include your game in the above 'stunk'
catagory - we all enjoyed your game.
-------------------------------------------------------
Please note that I only SEND from this address - I do
not receive email at this address. Please reply to me
at badtodd@dacmail.net :) thanks!
-------------------------------------------------------
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:54:28 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: The Future of Hero 4.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Fri, 19 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
> << And most importantly, they didn't even complete the game before putting it
> on the market. Which, justifiably, got alot of consumers angry. Myself being
> one of them.>>
>
> Well, if a game was truly incomplete it would frustrate me, too.
Any superhero-genre game which attempts to classify powers based on
special effect rather than mechanical effect is incomplete and
fundamentally unplayable.
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:56:27 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: So What Now?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Fri, 19 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
> << It may cost an arm and a leg to advertise, it may not. But it will pay off.
> >>
>
> They certainly would, but even at a "paltry" $10 per thousand copies,
> advertising in a mainstream comic which sells a million copies would cost
> $10,000!!! That's money we just don't have right now.
Okay, but who sells a million copies? According to the latest statement
of ownership, Thunderbolts (which I believe is considered to be a
successful series) sells 120-something thousand issues. Are there really
titles which outsell it 8-to-1?
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:57:33 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: So What Now? (Stores believing Hero/Champs is dead)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Thu, 18 Dec 1997, Brian Wong wrote:
> And Interesting side note to this is Games Gallery at the Stonestown
> mall in San Francisco. in 1996 I went in looking for Champions products and
> was told it was store policy to not carry the line or take orders on it.
> They had decided it simply didn't sell well enough to carry.
Well, that's just stupid beyond belief. Not carrying a line which doesn't
sell well, sure, but not taking _orders_ for it?
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 15:00:13 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On 18 Dec 1997, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> MS> What a minute, my copy of the BBB and the HSR says *nothing* about not
> MS> being able to increase the number of points a character has.
>
> "Thou shalt not create useful things with Transformation." :)
>
> Seriously, it reads, "however, Transform shouldn't be used to create useful
> things like weapons or gold."
A restriction which appears with reference specifically to using Transform
to _create_ things. If it applied to actual transforming Transforms, over
half of the listed examples would be illegal.
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:26:24 -0500
From: "Kevin J. McClain" <KevLord@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: KevLord@worldnet.att.net
Organization: Courts of Kirkwood
Subject: Keep 4th Alive(The power is yours..)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
I don't see where 4th Edition is in danger of dying. There has never
been a shortage of Hero system events at conventions, especially Gen Con
and Origins. Smaller cons require our talents to run Hero events to
introduce to new players and support older players. While new products
are anothers domain, fanzines, web pages and such go a long way to
share ideas with other Hero worshippers:) I started running Hero system
in 1984 and have never stopped. I don't plan to. My Champs campaign
plotlines are already planned into Mid 1998!!
Kev
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 12:29:17 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 11:54 AM 12/19/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>DF> More points does not equate to more useful.
>
>It doesn't? 20 inches of Flight is not more useful than 10 inches? 15D6EB
>is not more useful than 12D6?
Which would you find more useful: a butler, or a pet tiger?
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: New power idea
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 12:36:11 -0800
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Friday, December 19, 1997 7:02 AM, Marc Seebass wrote:
<snip>
>No it doesn't. I've never liked the idea of sliperyness as a drain to
dex.
>You can still move with a lower dex. The mechanic is more of cludge
than
>using entangle for sliperyness.
>
Yes and no. If you don't have/use the negative characteristic rules
(from Champions III or the Hero System Almanac I), then you are right.
If you do use those, then higher DEX characters can always act, but
take negatives to all DEX rolls, OCV, DCV, and DEX based skills, and
those with lower DEXs (whoever gets Drained or Suppressed below zero)
must make DEX rolls or be completely helpless at any task requiring
movement or DEX. This allows for losing control of a vehicle, slipping
and sliding to interfere with combat or Acrobatics, and falling down.
It also allows for Capt. America to run across ice without the chance
of falling, but with some problems with DEX based skills and CV, while
The Thing falls on his butt.
There is actually an excellent example of this in an old Fantastic
Four comic. For some reason, Susan Storm needed to stop The Thing, and
put little round Force Field balls under his feet. He slipped, but
maintained his balance well enough not to fall over, and caught her.
Filksinger
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 13:17:52 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Dead Duplicates
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> Here's an idea.
> I've mentioned before that I allow a +1/4 Advantage to REC, Healing Aid
>(or BODY Aid for that matter), and Regeneration to allow a character to
>heal back severed limbs.
I always assumed regeneration does that... how does it heal tissue so fast
if it doesnt actually create lost material? It just seems to always do it
in the comics, thats my general guide... Never occurred to me to be any
other way.
----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 13:20:28 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Dead Duplicates
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>> DUPLICATION: one heals a lost duplicate as if the points were BODY or
>> define a given circumstance to get the dead duplicate back... you
>> lose points for having a duplicate killed any more
>Dead is Dead. Would you let a dead character heal back? :)
>In my book, losing the points you paid for a duplicate beats
>being dead...
nah, you didnt lose your character, you got part of your power hurt, just
doesnt make sense game wise to do that to people... its points, not your
character. Should cost less if you can lose it permanently.
----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 19 Dec 1997 16:34:28 -0500
Lines: 30
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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X-Hero: champ-l
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "DF" == David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> writes:
DF> If you transform an entity (be it a rock, a person or a planet) and
DF> increase it's total point cost, it may be more expensive, but it will
DF> not neccessarily be more useful _TO YOU_.
The BBB does not mention to whom the Transform is useful. It states that
Transform should not be used to create useful things. Besides, to use
"weapons" as the example given, nothing prevents someone other than the
creator from picking up a created weapon and using it on its creator. In
such a circumstance that weapon is a detriment to the creator... but it is
still useful.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
\ Earth, presumably from outer space.
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 21:56:31 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> > Anyone just of out military basic training can tell you that
> >is humanly possible to go from being totally asleep to dressed, shaved,
> >showered, bed made in perfect tight fitness, boots shined, and down a flight
> >of stairs and then lined up in perfect formation in under 3 minutes total.
> > Cause if you didn't, they just made you run back up and repeat it
> >all until you did. :)
> > Course, I haven't been able to repeat it since, Though I used to
> >be able to be out the door in 10 minutes.
>
> I would call this an application of Instant Change for normals. (You
> know, like the "non-powered Powers" from Dark Champs?)
>
Perhaps the drill seargant buys:
Instant change, usably by others, area effect, requires dex roll.
Or some such. :)
I certainly know I didn't buy it. Cause it stopped working as soon
as we left basic training. :)
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 97 17:24:53 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On 12/19/97 4:34 PM, Stainless Steel Rat (ratinox@peorth.gweep.net) Said:
>The BBB does not mention to whom the Transform is useful. It states that
>Transform should not be used to create useful things. Besides, to use
>"weapons" as the example given, nothing prevents someone other than the
>creator from picking up a created weapon and using it on its creator. In
>such a circumstance that weapon is a detriment to the creator... but it is
>still useful.
Using that logic, all Transforms all illegal. Why transform something if
not to take advantage of it's usefulness?
GM: "Sorry Mike, you can't transform a dragon into a frog, the frog has
that
useful jumping ability."
Mike:"Then why did I spend 50 points on that spell?"
GM: "I dunno."
| David A. Fair
Think Different | SDS International
| dfair@sdslink.com
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:31:15 EST
Subject: Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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To: champ-l@omg.org
<< Electronic Reprints of stuff I already have doesn't count as new.>>
Ultimate Supermage is not a reprint. And the last few ICE-produced books
(Atlantis, et al) came out in 1995-1996.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:33:59 EST
Subject: Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
<< ergo, the list often asks for an "official
opinion" on a rules question which comes back "do what you want" >>
What's wrong with that? Why does everything have to be set in stone. Part of
the beauty of the Hero System *is* it's flexibility and adaptability, wouldn't
you agree? There is often no "one right way" to do something.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:36:18 EST
Subject: Re: Gold Rush Games Mail
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< Next you'll be saying tha tyou can neither confirm nor deny your ability
to confirm or deny and confirmation or denial. ;-] >>
I can neither confirm nor deny the allegation that I actually read and am
responding to your post.
Mark @ GRG
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 19 Dec 1997 17:42:24 -0500
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>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
>> It doesn't? 20 inches of Flight is not more useful than 10 inches?
>> 15D6EB is not more useful than 12D6?
BG> Which would you find more useful: a butler, or a pet tiger?
That depends: am I playing Tarzan or Bruce Wayne?
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover
\ head.
X-Sender: nolan@pop.erols.com
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 18:10:16 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: So What Now?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
<x-rich>At 02:56 PM 12/19/97 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>On Fri, 19 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
>
>> <<<< It may cost an arm and a leg to advertise, it may not. But it will pay off.
>> >>
>>
>> They certainly would, but even at a "paltry" $10 per thousand copies,
>> advertising in a mainstream comic which sells a million copies would cost
>> $10,000!!! That's money we just don't have right now.
>
>Okay, but who sells a million copies? According to the latest statement
>of ownership, Thunderbolts (which I believe is considered to be a
>successful series) sells 120-something thousand issues. Are there really
>titles which outsell it 8-to-1?
Trevor:
No offense, buddy, but what are you smoking? Thunderbolts is a successful comic, but it is not a big comic. The big titles (the various Bat-titles, X-titles, Avengers, Spider-Man, etc.) sell a million or nearly so, easy.
But advertising is still a good idea. Game magazines is one way, game stores is another. Not everything costs $10,000.
Scott
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I see God in every hour of the twenty-four, and each moment then,
In the faces of men and women I see God, and in my own face in the
glass;
<bold>Walt Whitman</bold> - <italic>Leaves of Grass
</italic>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scott Nolan
nolan@erols.com
</x-rich>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 16:38:36 -0800
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger)
Subject: Re[2]: So What Now?
Content-Description: cc:Mail note part
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I wrote:
><< Well, I think that there is a greater issue at stake. Gaming *as a
>hobby* is dying, not just 4th Ed. >>
And Mark succinctly wrote:
>I disagree.
Well, I know what I see, and if Gaming isn't dying, it must have one
hell of a Simulate Death talent.
When I was a kid 10 years ago (and I'm 25 now), Conventions would
literally be crawling with kids my age or younger, eager to play any
kind of RPG. (And I took good advantage of that...I spent at least
one game session a day on games I had never played before. I exposed
myself to all sorts of cool games that way. But I digress...)
At the last Con I went to, kids and young teens were very few and far
between. RPG tournaments which once numbered in the hundreds were
reduced...I don't know if there were *any* Champions tourneys (I know
there was going to be at least one, but Albert Deschesne's prizes got
lost in the mail, and he bowed out.) I ended up not playing a single
Con-organized game the entire time, because I didn't want to play in
yet another cheesy Living City tournament.
Maybe this is just Los Angeles, and other parts of the country are
just overflowing with young gamers. But haven't seen that many lately.
Richard
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: DP9 Marketing
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 01:06:37 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> Don't get me wrong. I love HERO, and it'll always be my choice for superhero
> gaming (heck, for most genres). But HERO and GRG could learn a lot from
> Dream Pod 9. Heck, they'd probably be happy to help (boosting the industry
> in general is always a good idea, and I know for a fact that DP9 has _no_
> plans at all to do a superhero/multigenre game).
>
Really?
From their webpage I got:
Gear Krieg
In a world torn by war, the only real hope lies in the use of... super
science? World War II will never be the same again after you?ve
tried our Two-Fisted Pulp Superscience World War II game, Gear
Krieg!
Sounds like a WWII Mecha-Super game. :)
This is on:
http://www.dp9.com/catalog/
What I want to see is a psionics and magic system for Silhouette.
> Anyway, if HERO products came out with the quality levels of DP9 stuff, I'd
> probably croak from sheer joy.
Oh heck yeah. It's been a long time since an RPG was coming out with
more stuff than I could afford to buy. Most of the good stuff comes out in
slow trickles.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
"The CCG is a natural extension of the Operating Sys... Er, Role Playing
System." --- Something I swear Richard Garfield (WoTC) must have said at
some point.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Any way you Slice it
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 01:18:57 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> >><< Your best option is a full page add split 50-50 Hero 4th and
> Champions:NM.
> >>Destroyer...? ;) "Either way you slice it, it comes up world
> >domination!" :D
> >
> > This is the line of thought I had when I first saw that statement. My
> >version was more like the two versions of Quantum: "Either way you slice
> >it, it comes up big trouble for crooks!"
> > Hey, I think we have a good ad campaign idea going here....
>
> Okay, I have to do it before someone else does;
>
> An ad with both versions of Seeker getting beat senseless:
> "Either way you slice it, it's still Seeker!" ;)
>
Too bad New Millenium was too pretentious to have a Foxbat. :)
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: So What Now?
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 01:26:00 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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> > When I was a kid 10 years ago (and I'm 25 now), Conventions would
> > literally be crawling with kids my age or younger, eager to play any
> > kind of RPG. (And I took good advantage of that...I spent at least
> > one game session a day on games I had never played before. I exposed
> > myself to all sorts of cool games that way. But I digress...)
> [Clip]
> > Maybe this is just Los Angeles, and other parts of the country are
> > just overflowing with young gamers. But haven't seen that many lately.
>
I've noticed this too. Very upsetting if you ask me.
> Maybe I'm just getting cynical in my old age (he said tongue in cheek, being
> 24), but frankly a hundred times as many "young gamers" wouldn't seem like
> much of an improvement to me. RPGs strike me as being an activity unsuited
> to most people gamer beneath college age; roleplaying is a primarily mental
> activity, and it takes a certain amount of time to develop the necessary
> "brain muscles". (It also takes a certain amount of things called "money"
> and "free time", which also happen to coincide more with college age ...)
>
I would disagree here. High Schooler's have more free time than
just about any age group out there. And often times the brain-power is
better than the college kids. And it's certainly better than us adults
with our slowly atrophying brains.
Maturity level isn't there with most though. But that doesn't nor
should it stop them.
To be honest, I've found better gamers among the kids than I have
among adults. Not as stuck in the mud, more willing to try new things.
And those kids are the next generation of the hobby. Ensuring they're
there is ensuring this all isn't going to be something done only in nursing
homes in 40-60 years.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
"The CCG is a natural extension of the Operating Sys... Er, Role Playing
System." --- Something I swear Richard Garfield (WoTC) must have said at
some point.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Con Games
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 01:49:21 +0000 (GMT)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> conventions. I would have to echo that sentiment. I went to GenCon for
> the first time this year and was sorely disappointed in the number of
> Champions/Hero games that were being run. The games that WERE run were
> almost always pre-filled, with people standing around hoping for a
> no-show so that they could sit in. Obviously the INTEREST in the game
> is there...
>
Really? I always thought it was big there. How many games did you
see? What WAS big?
> run games at conventions. Heck, if you could get some of the 'official'
> hero people to run some games, that would be perfect!
>
Well, we all know that will only happen if it's a Fuzion based
game.
> I played in most of the Champions games at GenCon, and I would have to
> say that for the most part.. they stunk. Maybe I've gotten spoiled (and
> extremely lucky) to have played under some very good GMs over the years,
> so I know what a GOOD Champions game is like, but for the people there
> that played it for the first time? Many of them flat out said after the
> game, 'This game sucks, Im never playing Champions again'.
>
I played in a few games at Pacificon in 96 (I played psylocke
in an X-Man game, Rainbow (DNAgents) in an attack on Alcatraz game, and
my own PC American Star in a slug-fest in San Francisco game for anyone
who was there.). The games were all almost nothing more than slugfests
with lots of powergaming. However I still found at least one newbie who
was drooling over the idea of buying the rulebook (though the idiot
bought Marvel Supers as well, you get more bang for your buck paying
someone to twiddle their thumbs than you do from that game, IMHO).
Out here in the Bay Area Champions seems to have a strong
following. Lots of games for it at all the cons I've seen. If I trusted
myself to it.
> Unfortunately it was some bad GMs, and not a bad system that lost you
> some potential new customers. If those players first Champions
> experience had been under a good GM? They might still be playing today.
> I would think that GenCon would be big enough to warrent the attention
> of someone 'official' (especially since so many of them were there
> anyway)
>
Well, we might get Mark (GRG) out there, but the day Hero does
anything but fuzion is the day I start believing politicians. It just
isn't going to happen.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
"The CCG is a natural extension of the Operating Sys... Er, Role Playing
System." --- Something I swear Richard Garfield (WoTC) must have said at
some point.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Powers classified by special effect rather than mechanics
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 01:56:40 +0000 (GMT)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> Any superhero-genre game which attempts to classify powers based on
> special effect rather than mechanical effect is incomplete and
> fundamentally unplayable.
Funny you should say that. I agree with you. However Jeff Dee,
author of Villians and Vigilantes, currently writing a new version of the
game; has stated the exact opposite.
His opinion was that Champions' major flaw was to ignore the
fundamental diference in mechanics required for different special effects.
Not in those exact words, but that was the message conveyed. It's one of
the chief considerations made in the design of the new point based version
of Villians and Vigilantes; Living Legends. And he has quite a faithful
following.
So while I agree with you; I concede there is validity to the
opposing argument.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
"The CCG is a natural extension of the Operating Sys... Er, Role Playing
System." --- Something I swear Richard Garfield (WoTC) must have said at
some point.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Official Rulings (was Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 02:24:28 +0000 (GMT)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
>
> << ergo, the list often asks for an "official
> opinion" on a rules question which comes back "do what you want" >>
>
> What's wrong with that? Why does everything have to be set in stone. Part of
> the beauty of the Hero System *is* it's flexibility and adaptability, wouldn't
> you agree? There is often no "one right way" to do something.
Because when I ask someone's opinions on something, I already know
that I can "do what I want". What I want to know is what they had intended
to mean when they wrote down what they did. Under such a circumstance,
telling me "do what you want" is insulting. It's telling me "I don't care
to answer peasants." Maybe it's part of my background in asia, when I'm
told something I always look past the words to see the true meaning held
in the message. But I doubt it. Cause I'm not alone in finding such an
answer to be unfufilling to my needs.
On the contrary. I DO NOT WANT a Gygax routine of you and Steve
going on the net, cons, and some version of Adventurers Club telling
us that "the rules are X, and only X, and failure to play by method X is
a failure to play the game and should result in confiscation of your
copy of the game."
But a simple bit of advise every now and then is handy.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
"The CCG is a natural extension of the Operating Sys... Er, Role Playing
System." --- Something I swear Richard Garfield (WoTC) must have said at
some point.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Comic Sales (was Re: So What Now?)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 03:53:13 +0000 (GMT)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
<<<< It may cost an arm and a leg to advertise, it may not. But it will
<<<< pay off.
>
> >> They certainly would, but even at a "paltry" $10 per thousand copies,
> >> advertising in a mainstream comic which sells a million copies would cost
> >> $10,000!!! That's money we just don't have right now.
>
> >Okay, but who sells a million copies? According to the latest statement
> >of ownership, Thunderbolts (which I believe is considered to be a
> >successful series) sells 120-something thousand issues. Are there really
> >titles which outsell it 8-to-1?
>
> Trevor:
>
> No offense, buddy, but what are you smoking? Thunderbolts is a successful comic, but it is not a big comic. The big titles (the various Bat-titles, X-titles, Avengers, Spider-Man, etc.) sell a million or nearly so, easy.
>
Here's the top selling comic for 1997:
Avg is the key here, that's monthly sales. It's much lower than you might
expect.
(this info from:
http://x2.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=3426831&server=db97p6&threaded=1&CONTEXT=882617526.534315046&HIT_CONTEXT=&HIT_NUM=&hitnum=0 )
See Also:
(http://www.texas.net/~antarc/salescharts.html)
Top 100 by Total Sales (In Thousands)
Rank Title Company Sold Issues Avg
1 Spawn Image 1,761.0 12 146.8
2 Uncanny X-Men Marvel 1,473.4 9 163.7
3 X-Men Marvel 1,444.9 9 160.5
4 JLA DC 1,291.8 13 99.4
5 Fantastic Four Marvel 1,194.4 8 149.3
6 Wolverine Marvel 1,152.6 9 128.1
7 Curse of the Spawn Image 1,126.2 11 102.4
8 Darkness Image 1,100.6 9 122.3
9 Captain America Marvel 969.9 8 121.2
10 Superman DC 919.3 12 76.6
11 Generation X Marvel 889.7 9 98.9
12 Iron Man Marvel 888.5 7 126.9
13 Avengers Marvel 858.7 7 122.7
14 Gen 13 Image 817.6 9 90.8
15 X-Man Marvel 810.2 9 90.0
16 Adventures of Superman DC 778.5 12 64.9
17 X-Force Marvel 774.4 9 86.0
18 Witchblade Image 772.9 8 96.6
19 X-Factor Marvel 767.3 9 85.3
20 Cable Marvel 758.3 9 84.3
21 Superman Man of Steel DC 758.2 12 63.2
22 Action Comics DC 716.1 11 65.1
23 Incredible Hulk Marvel 680.6 9 75.6
24 Gen 13 Bootleg Image 646.8 12 53.9
25 Amazing Spiderman Marvel 642.5 9 71.4
26 Batman DC 633.3 11 57.6
27 Detective Comics DC 620.1 12 51.7
28 Excalibur Marvel 617.0 9 68.6
29 Heroes Reborn Return Marvel 581.3 4 145.3
30 X-Files Topps 580.6 12 48.4
31 Supergirl DC 574.4 12 47.9
32 Peter Parker Spiderman Marvel 573.9 9 63.8
33 Spectacular Spiderman Marvel 555.7 9 61.7
34 Green Lantern DC 555.2 12 46.3
35 Preacher DC 555.0 12 46.3
36 Batman Legends Dark Kn DC 544.3 12 45.4
37 Nightwing DC 517.8 12 43.2
38 Sensational Spiderman Marvel 516.6 9 57.4
39 Batman Long Halloween DC 514.5 10 51.5
40 Batman Shadow of Bat DC 507.4 12 42.3
41 Wildcats Image 506.4 12 42.2
42 Deadpool Marvel 501.3 9 55.7
43 Flash DC 497.4 12 41.5
44 Catwoman DC 480.0 12 40.0
45 Robin DC 471.2 12 39.3
46 DV8 Image 452.3 11 41.1
47 Wonder Woman DC 450.7 12 37.6
48 Alpha Flight Marvel 443.2 7 63.3
49 Thunderbolts Marvel 414.4 9 46.0
50 Teen Titans DC 372.8 12 31.1
51 Starman DC 372.5 12 31.0
52 Ka-Zar Marvel 370.3 10 37.0
53 Aquaman DC 362.4 12 30.2
54 Dreaming DC 353.2 12 29.4
55 Tenth Image 349.7 8 43.7
56 Impulse DC 344.9 12 28.7
57 Azrael DC 344.6 11 31.3
58 Superboy DC 342.8 12 28.6
59 Hitman DC 340.0 12 28.3
60 Elektra Marvel 333.7 9 37.1
61 Astro City Image 324.9 8 40.6
62 Genesis DC 322.1 4 80.5
63 Wetworks Image 319.3 11 29.0
64 Legion of Superheroes DC 317.3 12 26.4
65 Heroes For Hire Marvel 310.5 9 34.5
66 Silver Surfer Marvel 309.2 9 34.4
67 Arcanum Image 307.8 8 38.5
68 Books of Magic DC 307.3 12 25.6
69 Legionnaires DC 304.0 12 25.3
70 Divine Right Image 285.5 4 71.4
71 Gambit Marvel 285.0 4 71.3
72 Daredevil Marvel 284.4 9 31.6
73 Stormwatch Image 280.5 10 28.1
74 Star Wars Dark ForceRis DHC 277.5 6 46.3
75 Savage Dragon Image 275.8 11 25.1
76 Hellshock Image 273.0 8 34.1
77 X-Men Unlimited Marvel 267.2 3 89.1
78 Adventures in DC Univ DC 264.1 11 24.0
79 What If? Marvel 258.9 8 32.4
80 House of Secrets DC 258.6 12 21.6
81 Maverick Marvel 258.3 6 43.1
82 Superman Adventures DC 253.7 12 21.1
83 Power of Shazam DC 251.9 12 21.0
84 Ascension Image 251.0 3 83.7
85 Green Arrow DC 243.7 12 20.3
86 Supreme Maximum 240.6 14 17.2
87 Spectre DC 239.2 12 19.9
88 Hellblazer DC 237.8 12 19.8
89 Jack Kirby's 4th World DC 235.9 9 26.2
90 Maxx Image 232.8 8 29.1
91 Journey Into Mystery Marvel 232.4 8 29.1
92 Lobo DC 229.5 12 19.1
93 Resurrection Man DC 229.4 10 22.9
94 Kents DC 219.6 7 31.4
95 Cyberforce Image 219.0 6 36.5
96 Tales of the Witchblade Image 212.8 3 70.9
97 Sovereign Seven DC 210.0 12 17.5
98 Weapon Zero Image 200.1 6 33.4
99 Sandman Mystery Theatre DC 197.7 11 18.0
100 Grifter Image 192.0 8 24.0
So, only 57 titles sold more for the full year (9 months for
Marvel) than Darkness #11 did for one issue. Yikes!
***END PASTE***
Most of that's pretty low, but you'll note that Thunderbolts is up
there at #49 for an average of 46 thousand sales/month.
Which is really not bad in comparison to the rest.
Right now the number one topic on rec.arts.comics.misc is how much trouble
the comics industry is in at this point. What with Marvel bankcrupt and
stores closing left and right. Sales are way down and the industry is looking
for ways to increase revenue and bring in more fans.
Much of the discusion is being done by shop owners, writiers, artists,
and the like.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
"The CCG is a natural extension of the Operating Sys... Er, Role Playing
System." --- Something I swear Richard Garfield (WoTC) must have said at
some point.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: So What Now?
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 20:38:13 -0800
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Friday, December 19, 1997 5:41 PM, Vox Ludator wrote:
<snip>
>
>Maybe I'm just getting cynical in my old age (he said tongue in
cheek, being
>24), but frankly a hundred times as many "young gamers" wouldn't seem
like
>much of an improvement to me. RPGs strike me as being an activity
unsuited
>to most people gamer beneath college age; roleplaying is a primarily
mental
>activity, and it takes a certain amount of time to develop the
necessary
>"brain muscles". (It also takes a certain amount of things called
"money"
>and "free time", which also happen to coincide more with college age
...)
>
You may have a good point. When I started playing in late junior high
and high school, most of the players I had were a severe
disappointment, as were the GMs. My first D&D game that wasn't
randomly rolled was run by a friend's brother. Within 15 minutes, the
other players had stood by while one of their number first extorted
money out of me (to stop him from cutting the rope holding me over a
moat), then cut the rope and fed me to the crocodiles.
In my first Champions game as GM, I forgot to design the characters
with END in mind, back when END costs were double. When the players
discovered that their characters collapsed shortly into the first
fight, rather than fixing them, they decided to attack a jet liner and
suicide when caught.
A certain maturity is necessary. I don't know about brain power, but
maturity would be a good idea.
Filksinger
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: New Limitation: Puncture
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 21:39:19 -0800
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Since everyone else is adding their own special Advantages,
Limitations, and Powers, I thought I would throw out my own.
Puncture (-1/4)
The Puncture Limitation is a limitation applied to powers which do
BODY only. It is most often applied to Killing attacks and Armor
Piercing EBs.
When an attack takes Puncture, it loses its ability to make big holes.
Examples include rapiers and most firearms. An attack using Puncture
makes small holes only. Thus, a .44 Magnum cannot be used to blow a 6
ft hole in the wall of your house, and a rapier cannot be used to
knock down an oak door, both of which are technically possible under
the present rules.
Most firearms take this limitation in my campaigns.
Filksinger
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 00:42:13 EST
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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In a message dated 97-12-19 17:09:35 EST, you write:
<< The BBB does not mention to whom the Transform is useful. It states that
Transform should not be used to create useful things. Besides, to use
"weapons" as the example given, nothing prevents someone other than the
creator from picking up a created weapon and using it on its creator. In
such a circumstance that weapon is a detriment to the creator... but it is
still useful. >>
The fallacy in this argument is that 99% of the time, *whatever* a character
creates using Transform is going to be USEFUL to someone, otherwise he/she
wouldn't be creating it. If you turn your enemy to stone, that has just
become useful to you, since the enemy can't attack you anymore. If you create
food out of thin air, that is useful to you. If you change a normal human
(25-50 points) into a vampire (let's see anyone make an effective vampire for
25 points), the vampire is now a stronger character (useful to himself or the
vampire sire). And the list goes on... some adding points, some taking away
points, some not changing them at all. Seriously, I think the vampire is the
best example of adding points, since their very own character, Stalker, in the
same book with the rules to Transform has that very ability... a 1d6
Cumulative Transform to Vampire, and that's it... no Linked Aid or anything
else. And with examples in previous paragraphs showing Transform being used
to add points (dagger to sword), it makes no sense to me that you can't add
points.
Another problem... The quote you pulled comes from the section talking about
creating things from nothing, not about Transforms in general.
A final thought... In Champs III they said in black and white that you can't
add points, but they didn't carry that over to Champs IV. That should be
enough right there. My word, don't you think something as important as
whether you can add points would be *clearly*, just like in Champs III,
spelled out in easy to understand words. But if you're still sticking to your
quote, what you say is a 'less specific' wording telling people you can't add
points can just as easily be opposed by an equally less specific worded
comment at the end under the title 'comment'. "The cost of Transform is based
on the cost of Ranged Killing Attack. The logic is that if a character does
enough damage to kill someone or destroy something, he might as well transform
it into something else." That sounds pretty 'open-ended and everything is
fair game' to me. But that just may be me. I hope this doesn't come off as
harsh or anything. It's not intended to be anything other than an as thorough
as can be outlaying of points... which is what this list is here for, right?
'Lynx
From: "Jeff O'Connor" <jtoc@msn.com>
Subject: Request for Character Stats: Fatale Five
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 22:55:34 -0700
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Hi. Someone sent me a request for my Fatale Five character stats.
Unfortunatley, I got a little carried away cleaning out my mailbox and
deleted the request. I've got no problem posting them, but I will need some
time to transcribe my chicken-scratch character sheets from loose-leaf to
Excel format. If whomever wanted them will respond to this post, I will
email them to you starting - well, as soon as I get your email address. :-)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 01:34:34 -0500
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org>
Subject: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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> << ergo, the list often asks for an "official
> opinion" on a rules question which comes back "do what you want" >>
>
> What's wrong with that? Why does everything have to be set in stone. Part of
> the beauty of the Hero System *is* it's flexibility and adaptability, wouldn't
> you agree? There is often no "one right way" to do something.
There's a spectrum: at one end is freeform "let's pretend", at the other is
that massively convoluted system I hear about (Phoenix Command?), where combat
turns are in tenths of a second, etc. etc.
The flexibility of the Hero System is it's strength; however, in order to
provide a common ground, it does need some structure. The ultimate result of
saying "whatever, play it however you want" is the erosion of this
structure...
Geoff Speare
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 01:45:11 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Fri, 19 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
> << ergo, the list often asks for an "official
> opinion" on a rules question which comes back "do what you want" >>
>
> What's wrong with that? Why does everything have to be set in stone. Part of
> the beauty of the Hero System *is* it's flexibility and adaptability, wouldn't
> you agree? There is often no "one right way" to do something.
Yes, but then you get what we have here. And what we have here is a
failure to communicate. How does Linked work? How many powers can be used
with a single attack roll in a phase? What can Transformation do (and
not do). Exactly how many powers can you activate in a Phase?
There are a large number of questions (and arguments) that could be halted
on this list if some one at Hero finally sat down and decided to speak
plainly and clearly on certain rulings. This is one of the major reasons
people want a 5th Edition.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 01:57:32 EST
Subject: Re: So What Now?
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< But advertising is still a good idea. Game magazines is one way, game
stores is another. Not everything costs $10,000 >>
Yes, I realize that, Scott. My point was only that some forms of advertising
are a bit beyond our means right now. But I did ask for suggestions and I
appreciate the ones sent in so far. Keep the ideas coming! :D
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 01:57:42 EST
Subject: Flexibility issue
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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To: champ-l@omg.org
<< What's wrong with "do it yourself" is that ANY game can give you that. >>
Exactly. So what's the problem? Someone wants a specific rule created for a
situation that is not covered in the rule book. The rep says "do what you
want," which I interpret to mean "do whatever works best in your campaign." In
other words, use a little GM initiative. It's an open field. What's the big
deal?
I think some people get way too hung up on "official rulings" at times. I'll
let you in on a secret that I have learned from many many years (yeah, right
<G>) of game design and publishing. When you ask a designer a questions, there
is the *possibility* that they had never considered that question before and
they may not know the "official ruling" on the issue.
But aren't we all "designers" to one degree or another? What makes the game
designer's decision any more valid or playable than the GM's? Only the GM can
know what works best in his game -- to know what is the most fun. And that's
what RPGs are about, isn't it? Fun?
Peace be with you all. ;)
Mark @ GRG
"I can neither confirm nor deny the existence of Santa Claus"
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 01:57:44 EST
Subject: Re: Re[2]: So What Now?
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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To: champ-l@omg.org
<< Well, I know what I see, and if Gaming isn't dying, it must have one hell
of a Simulate Death talent.>>
With all due respect, your experience is not the summation of the industry
as a whole. There are a lot of other things to consider as well.
As for the age of the attendees... have you thought that the gamers of your
own age when you were 15 are *still* your own age now? ;) Agreed, we need new
blood, as it were, but gaming is hardly "dying," IMO. Sales of our latest book
have already exceeded both of our previous books and it isn't even out yet!
Mark @ GRG
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 02:43:58 -0500
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org>
Subject: Flexibility issue
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> Exactly. So what's the problem? Someone wants a specific rule created for a
> situation that is not covered in the rule book. The rep says "do what you
> want," which I interpret to mean "do whatever works best in your campaign." In
> other words, use a little GM initiative. It's an open field. What's the big
> deal?
For "how much damage does a character being dragged behind a chariot take?"
type questions, this is cool. The problem is when questions arise over
wording/interpretation in the rulebook; "do what you want" here equates to
losing a little piece of the standard framework.
For example, if an official decision was made on the Linked thing, it
wouldn't stop anyone from using the house rules they like -- but it would
provide a standard starting point, so that unless someone says "this is what I
do with Linked", you actually know what the rule is and how it affects your
character. That's not the case right now. :-(
> I think some people get way too hung up on "official rulings" at times. I'll
> let you in on a secret that I have learned from many many years (yeah, right
> <G>) of game design and publishing. When you ask a designer a questions, there
> is the *possibility* that they had never considered that question before and
> they may not know the "official ruling" on the issue.
This is a good point. I would certainly hate to see "HERO ruling of the day"
posts from Hero Games. But a well thought out statement would be something
else altogether.
> But aren't we all "designers" to one degree or another? What makes the game
> designer's decision any more valid or playable than the GM's? Only the GM can
> know what works best in his game -- to know what is the most fun. And that's
> what RPGs are about, isn't it? Fun?
I have much more fun when I can spend less time going over my interpretations
of all the vague places in the rules and just get down to playing!
Geoff Speare
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 02:54:24 EST
Subject: Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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To: champ-l@omg.org
<< Yes, but then you get what we have here. And what we have here is a
failure to communicate. >>
I thought I've been doing a good job at that so far.
<< How does Linked work? >>
Can you be a little more specific? Two powers are linked to "go off"
together, and the smaller of the two (in APs) gets the Limitation. What else
do you want to know?
<< How many powers can be used with a single attack roll in a phase? >>
One, unless they are linked.
<< What can Transformation do (and not do). >>
It can simulate any effect not already covered by an existing Power, as I
understand it. It's usually used for cosmetic changes, and is *always*
reversible.
<< Exactly how many powers can you activate in a Phase? >>
I don't know of an upper limit, with the caveat that only one "offensive"
power can be used per Action Phase (again, unless Linked).
<< There are a large number of questions (and arguments) that could be halted
on this list if some one at Hero finally sat down and decided to speak plainly
and clearly on certain rulings. This is one of the major reasons people want
a 5th Edition.>>
Rather than wading through countless posts of "debate" on these issues
(which I admit I don't have the time to do due to other commitments) is anyone
here willing to help me compile a concise list of rules questions? That would
be most appreciated.
Mark @ GRG
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 04:24:48 -0600
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net>
Subject: Re: So What Now?
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Vox Ludator! wrote:
> Maybe I'm just getting cynical in my old age (he said tongue in cheek, being
> 24), but frankly a hundred times as many "young gamers" wouldn't seem like
> much of an improvement to me. RPGs strike me as being an activity unsuited
> to most people gamer beneath college age; roleplaying is a primarily mental
> activity, and it takes a certain amount of time to develop the necessary
> "brain muscles". (It also takes a certain amount of things called "money"
> and "free time", which also happen to coincide more with college age ...)
I would have to completely disagree with the above. Over the years I've gamed
with people of all ages, ranging from about 8 years old to mid/upper 40's. The
younger set may not have been the best role players, but they often bring a
fresh attitude and enthusiasm to the game that is missing from 'the adults'.
Our games over the years would have gotten extremely boring without this 'fresh
blood'.
I would say the most important part of role playing is imagination. Are you
saying kids lack imagination?
Todd
(although I will agree that Champions is more of an 'older' game due to the math
involved)
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 04:29:46 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Flexibility issue
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 01:57 AM 12/20/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
> Exactly. So what's the problem? Someone wants a specific rule created
> for a situation that is not covered in the rule book. The rep says "do
> what you want," which I interpret to mean "do whatever works best in
> your campaign." In other words, use a little GM initiative. It's an open
> field. What's the big deal?
[clip]
> But aren't we all "designers" to one degree or another? What makes the
> game designer's decision any more valid or playable than the GM's? Only
> the GM can know what works best in his game -- to know what is the most
> fun. And that's what RPGs are about, isn't it? Fun?
In theory, yes. In practicality, they're also about money, insofar as the
game designers of the world aren't giving their products away. The less
often I have to stop play to make up a ruling, the more efficient (and thus
worth the money I paid for it) the game is. The more work *I* have to do on
a mechanics level (which takes time away from the work I intended to do
building my campaign world and populating it with interesting characters),
the less efficient the game is, and the more I feel like I've been suckered.
"That's not a bug, it's a feature" is as annoying in RPGs as it is in
computer programs. And in HERO's case, many of the lack of "official
rulings" aren't on wierd/minor things. For example, the issue of whether or
not you can stack multiple powers into a single attack seems pretty durn
important to me, because it sets up two entirely different models of play --
I can't help but think the Powers That Be had SOME intent one way or the
other on that issue.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good |
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
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X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 04:29:49 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: So What Now?
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 01:26 AM 12/20/97 +0000, Brian Wong wrote:
> And those kids are the next generation of the hobby. Ensuring they're
> there is ensuring this all isn't going to be something done only in
> nursing homes in 40-60 years.
I'm a lot less worried about where the hobby will be in 40-60 years than
where it's going to be NEXT year. RPGs are something I do for my own
enjoyment, not for the betterment of humanity :/, and thus my concerns are
focussed on the selfish motivations of "how is this going to improve my own
gaming environment?"
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good |
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) |
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Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 04:29:50 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: So What Now?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 04:24 AM 12/20/97 -0600, Todd Hanson wrote:
> I would say the most important part of role playing is imagination. Are
> you saying kids lack imagination?
Imagination tempered with maturity and technique. There's a big difference
between the "imagination" that creates crayon drawings on the refrigerator
of the monster in his closet, and the "imagination" that creates Giger
prints. The latter probably springs from the former, but ...
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good |
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
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X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 04:29:52 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Con Games
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 02:17 PM 12/20/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< Well, we all know that will only happen if it's a Fuzion based game.>>
>
> You, sir, are being very negative.
No, he's being deductive; it's not his fault the evidence he has to work
from leads to negative conclusions. From comments made by Hero Games (okay,
by Steve Peterson) on this list, it's hard not to be left with the
impression that Hero Games is more "about" Fuzion than the HERO System, and
that getting them involved in Fuzion-independent HERO activities is
something roughly on the level of getting Peter Hinwood involved in another
Rocky Horror movie.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good |
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
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X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 04:29:54 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: The Future of Hero 4.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 02:38 PM 12/20/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< But here is your problem: The public believes that Champions is out
>of print because Hero Games has not been showing a presence>>
>
> That is one of the dumbest leaps of "logic" I've ever heard. Sorry, but
> it still frustrates the hell out of me. Just because you don't see a
> Chevy ad for 3 months... does that mean Chevy's are no longer being
> manufactured?
The "public", generally speaking, is a very dumb entity. :]
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good |
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 05:22:54 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Any way you Slice it
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 01:18 AM 12/20/97 +0000, Brian Wong wrote:
>> >><< Your best option is a full page add split 50-50 Hero 4th and
>> Champions:NM.
>> >>Destroyer...? ;) "Either way you slice it, it comes up world
>> >domination!" :D
>> >
>> > This is the line of thought I had when I first saw that statement. My
>> >version was more like the two versions of Quantum: "Either way you slice
>> >it, it comes up big trouble for crooks!"
>> > Hey, I think we have a good ad campaign idea going here....
>>
>> Okay, I have to do it before someone else does;
>>
>> An ad with both versions of Seeker getting beat senseless:
>> "Either way you slice it, it's still Seeker!" ;)
>>
> Too bad New Millenium was too pretentious to have a Foxbat. :)
That remains to be seen. He has a flashback cameo in the C:NM
mini-comic, and he is a creation of Bruce Harlick (the rule of thumb for
all New Champions Universe characters is that they be created in-house).
So he might pop up.
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 06:31:05 -0800
From: Darrin Kelley <flashbak@pacbell.net>
Reply-To: flashbak@pacbell.net
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: The Future of Hero 4.
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GoldRushG wrote:
> I disagree. I have run games in which half the players had 4th Ed.
> characters and the other half had Fuzion characters. I guess I am more
>
> familiar with Fuzion than most of the "I can't stand Fuzion" crowd for
> obvious
> reasons, but I still don't see what's so difficult about the
> conversion
> process. :/ Anyway, on to your points.
I, personally, have converted alot of characters from Champions to
Fuzion. And the process is not an easy one. It is time consuming and can
be more difficult than simply making a Champions character. I have
converted several whole game supplments. Most of which are completely
out of print. I did this im preparation for a Fuzion playtest game that
never really got started. And it was long and tedious work. Far more so
than many of the other character conversions I have done from other
systems to Hero 4. Including such systems as Palladium. None of it was
as nerve wracking because those systems were actually complete and well
explained. I can pump out 12 Palladium characters to Hero in the time it
takes me to convert one from Hero to Fuzion.
> << They said that it should boost sales and attention to 4th Edition,
> it did
> not. >>
>
> Yikes. I hadn't heard this one! :D
That was a near direct quote from Steve Peterson on the subject when
Fuzion was announced to this list.
> Well, if a game was truly incomplete it would frustrate me, too.
> However,
> you are comparing Fuzion to 4th Ed. To include *all* of the variety
> 4th Ed.
> has would have doubled the size of the C:NM book. But anyway, I'm not
> trying
> to argue with you, so I'll limit my comments and read on. ;)
No, I am not comparing it to 4th Edition. That statement was based
on Fuzion alone. I own BGC and C:NM. Both games are almost unplayable
with just the rulebooks themselves. Both are so rife with mistakes and
omitions that they are almost incomprehensable for someone who had never
even seen a Hero product before.
> Hero Games made us their publishers of 4th Ed. books. We are in the
> same
> role (with essentially the same license) that ICE was in 2 years ago.
> But we
> have a smaller staff. ;) Just FYI.
As I suspected. But you guys don't have the MERP, Rolmaster and the
Tolkoen Estate diverting your attention from working on Hero System
products either. And I hope you manage grow based on the efforts you are
making. Hero 4 deserves that type of pure attention from someone.
> This is where I start to beat my head against the wall. The rulebook
> is
> *not* out of print. We have a ton of these things (almost literally)
> and have
> been regularly selling them to distributors. *Somebody* is buying
> them, I
> assure you. Why do so many people claim that Champions is out of
> print? Why,
> oh Why?
But here is your problem: The public believes that Champions is out
of print because Hero Games has not been showing a presence, except with
Fuzion, for quite some time. Even many of the retailers believe it. I
know this, because I do talk to alot of the local ones. They don't
believe they can get the rulebook anymore. You need to get the word out.
> Say WHAT?! <LOL> That's really not an option, believe me. Nor is it
> something that we want to do. We are happy in our position as a
> licensed
> publisher of Hero products, and once we get the books out (starting
> next
> month! <fingers crossed to ward off a calamity!>) we think the fans
> will be
> amazed!
I was serious. You at Gold Rush will never be able to take Hero 4 as
far as you really want without ownership. You will not be able to do a
5th Edition, if you choose to, with any sort of clarity to your maximum
potential without it. It would simply be one of the best moves you could
make.
And I'm hoping you do amaze me. I'm hoping for the best. But I can
definately say that this list will defeniate let you know if the product
stinks. Seems that everybody here has been very good at bombarding Hero
for that over the years. Myself being one of them.
> Oh, believe me, you don't need to convince me of that fact! It's our
> number
> one priority right now, which explains our more active net (and list)
> presence, our ads, our upcoming products, our convention support
> program, and
> our BBB exchange policy.
I'm glad to see this effort, believe me. It is way past time that
someone in the publishing department actually showed this list they
cared for more than just spamming us. I have been on this list for 6
years. As soon as I get paid, you should be expecting my BBB to come
to you through the mail. I have gone through two of them. Both split.
And on the subject of the ICE exchange policy for faulty BBBs for
softcovers. I never heard about it until you stated it here a few days
ago. if someone who has been on this list as long as I had didn;t hear
about it, ICE wasn't making an adiquate enough effort..
> That's not always easy to do in a game supplement, but it is one of
> the
> things we're keeping under consideration with the San Angelo line.
> From the
> writing, to the campaign setting, to the artwortk, our entire focus is
> not on
> superheroes, but on *being* superheroes.
Glad to hear it! That should be a significant change from the
Champions supplements of the past.
But the genre books themselves should have a better explanation of
the atmposphere and how to play the characters as heroes. That alone
would help things out immeasurably.
> Well, I can tell you... Ugh. Scratch that. I can't discuss this
> topic. ;)
I know. I have been watching the various threads from the
background. Waiting for the right time to bost my own feelings. Instead
of flooding you with alot of posts, I wanted to minimize them. For both
of our sakes.
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 09:40:59 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: New Limitation: Puncture
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On Fri, 19 Dec 1997, Filksinger wrote:
>
> Puncture (-1/4)
>
> The Puncture Limitation is a limitation applied to powers which do
> BODY only. It is most often applied to Killing attacks and Armor
> Piercing EBs.
>
> When an attack takes Puncture, it loses its ability to make big holes.
> Examples include rapiers and most firearms. An attack using Puncture
> makes small holes only. Thus, a .44 Magnum cannot be used to blow a 6
> ft hole in the wall of your house, and a rapier cannot be used to
> knock down an oak door, both of which are technically possible under
> the present rules.
>
This is very interesting. I can certainly see the applicability of it, but
I wonder about the precedent it sets. Normally I handle this sort of thing
as a special effects issue. Making rules for it makes sense on one level,
but it seems to me it could get overly complex very quickly. What about a
broadsword, which could certainly make a large hole in a wooden door in a
few phases, but is a lousy implement for digging through dirt or stone?
What about an attack that can slice a circle in a wall, but doesn't
actually destroy much material so that it can't make much of a hole in
anything beyond a certain thickness?
It also seems that by using this disadvantage, you open the door to
countless other comparable minor disadvantages. KA's that effect the
entire body at once are incapable of impairing a limb - that might be
worth a disadvantage. Blunt weapons are unlikely to sever a limb. Blade
weapons might do less damage on rigid-structured opponents like animated
skeletons.
I could see working up a whole set of disads to simulate a wide variety of
attacks, and this might be appropriate in a very few campaigns. But I
suspect it would be opening a can of worms to start using this sort of
things in most games.
What have your experiences with it been?
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Powers classified by special effect rather than mechanics
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 15:19:20 +0000 (GMT)
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> BW> His opinion was that Champions' major flaw was to ignore the
> BW> fundamental diference in mechanics required for different special
> BW> effects.
>
> It does not. There is the possibility of infinite variety of special
> effects, thus no work can encompass all of them. Champions takes a more
> abstract view, and then encourages the GM to provide minor bonuses and
> penalties to powers based on their effects under various circumstances.
> Thus, a sonic blast will not work in a vacuum, but it will be moderately
> devastating under water. A water blast will not detonate explosives, but a
> fire blast certainly will.
>
You're somewhat arguing the point to the choir here. I happen to
prefer the Champions method. Though I see V&V's point that while you can do
what you mention above; the game gives no specific coverage of it and how to
do it. Of course, I also feel that you couldn't possibly cover every
special effect out there. Which is a common view held by us in the Champions
crowd, but often not held outside this circle.
> Anyone who claims that Champions does not take special effects into account
> has failed to read the rulebook in its entirety, or has a shit-awful GM.
Well, it gives them a passing nod, leaving the work to the GM.
This point was brought up to highlight the exact opposing view to the
Champions philosophy. I think that was sparked by someone saying that
Fuzion fell within that opposing view. The view that special effects need
to be hardwired in. Fuzion does a little of this. What with a diferent rules
set for mecha. Also with some advantages being hardwired into the power;
such as AP Energy Blast.
But it is much closer in outlook to the Champions view than say
V&V or Heroes (un)Limited. Which is also why it takes fans from propective
Hero players rather than the people who would go out and play V&V or HU. :(
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
"The CCG is a natural extension of the Operating Sys... Er, Role Playing
System." --- Something I swear Richard Garfield (WoTC) must have said at
some point.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
X-Sender: matthew@mail.mactyre.net (Unverified)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 07:19:33 -0800
From: Matthew Mactyre <matthew@mactyre.net>
Subject: Re: So What Now?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 01:57 AM 12/20/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< But advertising is still a good idea. Game magazines is one way,
game
>stores is another. Not everything costs $10,000 >>
>
> Yes, I realize that, Scott. My point was only that some forms of
advertising
>are a bit beyond our means right now. But I did ask for suggestions
and I
>appreciate the ones sent in so far. Keep the ideas coming! :D
What about advertising on some of the larger, well trafficked Hero
related web sites? Most of them are labors-of-love and I'm sure that
if you selected a few and asked them to advertise Hero products they
would be thrilled. Heck, some of them may be willing to allow
advertising for discounts in products, etc. I'm sure you could work
something out.
Matthew
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 20 Dec 1997 11:04:47 -0500
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>>>>> "TB" == Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> writes:
>> Seriously, it reads, "however, Transform shouldn't be used to create
>> useful things like weapons or gold."
TB> A restriction which appears with reference specifically to using
TB> Transform to _create_ things.
No, a reference to using Tranform to create *useful* things -- to wit,
things that cost character points. If it costs points, you should not use
Transformation to achieve that end.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
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\
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 20 Dec 1997 11:10:48 -0500
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>>>>> "F" == Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> writes:
F> The fallacy in this argument is that 99% of the time, *whatever* a
F> character creates using Transform is going to be USEFUL to someone,
F> otherwise he/she wouldn't be creating it.
Yeah, because turning a dragon into a frog is going to be really useful to
the now ex-dragon.
F> If you turn your enemy to stone, that has just become useful to you,
F> since the enemy can't attack you anymore.
You could have killed him instead. You are not creating something useful,
you are crippling your opponent. You have not created something, you have
turned your enemy into something else.
F> If you create food out of thin air, that is useful to you.
Food has no active point cost, thus is not "useful" as far as game
mechanics are concerned.
F> If you change a normal human (25-50 points) into a vampire (let's see
F> anyone make an effective vampire for 25 points), the vampire is now a
F> stronger character (useful to himself or the vampire sire).
If the point total is the same as the original character, then the vampire
is not more "useful" than the original character as far as game mechanics
are concerned. 25 points of X is just as "useful" as 25 points of Y.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
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From: HayVern <HayVern@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 11:13:02 EST
Subject: Re: M-203
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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To: champ-l@omg.org
I taught how to use the M-203 in the Navy for a a couple of years. I would
conclude that it would be possible to fire the weapon at the same time, there
is no practical use for this and here is why.
If you strive for as much realism in your games, then here goes.
The 40mm grenade launcher that is used for the M-203, is a low velocity round.
The maximum range for this weapon is 400 meters, and to be able to fire that
far, the weapon has to be inclined at around a 45 degree angle. The weapon
actually lobs the round. At lesser ranges the inclination is less, but even at
150 meters it is enough that being effective with a round fired from the rifle
portion would be impossible.
One thing that is nice about the M-203, is the fact that a person could
actually hit a target on the otherside of a hill. Or hiding in a ditch that
you would not be able to hit with a conventional round. That in fact is the
role of the grenadier in the rifle squad.
In combat a grenadier is to be close to the squad leader to be able to
eliminate
targets that the rest of the squad cannot effectively engage.
Just something to consider.
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: New Limitation: Puncture
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>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
F> When an attack takes Puncture, it loses its ability to make big holes.
F> Examples include rapiers and most firearms. An attack using Puncture
F> makes small holes only.
You've obviously never seen the massive tissue deformation caused by most
firearms, especially those with hollowpoints.
F> Thus, a .44 Magnum cannot be used to blow a 6 ft hole in the wall of
F> your house,
This is inherent. 6 feet ~= 2 meters = 1", or a 1 hex attack. If you want
to blow a 6-foot hole in a wall, you need an AoE attack. If you want to
*cut* a large hole, that depends on the SFX of the power in question.
F> and a rapier cannot be used to knock down an oak door,
Not when the oak door's DEF is more than the damage that the rapier can
do.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Powers classified by special effect rather than mechanics
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Date: 20 Dec 1997 11:19:55 -0500
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>>>>> "BW" == Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> writes:
BW> His opinion was that Champions' major flaw was to ignore the
BW> fundamental diference in mechanics required for different special
BW> effects.
It does not. There is the possibility of infinite variety of special
effects, thus no work can encompass all of them. Champions takes a more
abstract view, and then encourages the GM to provide minor bonuses and
penalties to powers based on their effects under various circumstances.
Thus, a sonic blast will not work in a vacuum, but it will be moderately
devastating under water. A water blast will not detonate explosives, but a
fire blast certainly will.
Anyone who claims that Champions does not take special effects into account
has failed to read the rulebook in its entirety, or has a shit-awful GM.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
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Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 13:25:11 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net (Unverified)
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: DP9 Marketing
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>> in general is always a good idea, and I know for a fact that DP9 has _no_
>> plans at all to do a superhero/multigenre game).
>>
>Really?
> From their webpage I got:
>
>Gear Krieg
>
> In a world torn by war, the only real hope lies in the use of... super
> science? World War II will never be the same again after you?ve
> tried our Two-Fisted Pulp Superscience World War II game, Gear
> Krieg!
>
>Sounds like a WWII Mecha-Super game. :)
Actually, I know the guys involved in the Gear Krieg project. Gear Krieg is
basically WWII with some 'fanciful' elements of technology thrown in. Like
walking robots (read: gears), mechanical computers and other 'weird
science'. If you do a little research into the stuff the various militaries
tried to develop during WWII, you get some really strange stuff. Now imagine
that they _worked_, and you've got Gear Krieg. But no superpowers. GK
primarily came into being in order to take advantage of the large number of
HO scale WWII minis (the Heavy Gear miniature line is HO scale - railroad
scale for the non-mini-fans out there) available on the market.
Imagine 5 meter tall nazi assault robots alongside those panzers.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 14:17:11 EST
Subject: Re: Con Games
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< Well, we all know that will only happen if it's a Fuzion based game.>>
You, sir, are being very negative.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 14:38:41 EST
Subject: Re: The Future of Hero 4.
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< But here is your problem: The public believes that Champions is out
of print because Hero Games has not been showing a presence>>
That is one of the dumbest leaps of "logic" I've ever heard. Sorry, but it
still frustrates the hell out of me. Just because you don't see a Chevy ad for
3 months... dopes that mean Chevy's are no longer being manufactured?
mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 14:40:56 EST
Subject: Re: The Future of Hero 4.
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< You at Gold Rush will never be able to take Hero 4 as far as you really
want without ownership. >>
You, sir, are very, very wrong about this.
<< You will not be able to do a 5th Edition, if you choose to, with any sort
of clarity to your maximum potential without it. >>
I can't discuss this topic. Period.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 14:43:21 EST
Subject: Re: So What Now?
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< What about advertising on some of the larger, well trafficked Hero
related web sites? >>
That would be up to the web site owners. A banner ad would be very nice...
:)
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 14:47:20 EST
Subject: Re: Official Rulings (was Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...)
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< Because when I ask someone's opinions on something, I already know that I
can "do what I want". What I want to know is what they had intended to mean
when they wrote down what they did. Under such a circumstance, telling me "do
what you want" is insulting.>>
Fair enough. I agree with you.
Mark @ GRG
X-Sender: matthew@mail.mactyre.net (Unverified)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 12:14:15 -0800
From: Matthew Mactyre <matthew@mactyre.net>
Subject: Re: So What Now?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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At 02:43 PM 12/20/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< What about advertising on some of the larger, well trafficked Hero
>related web sites? >>
>
> That would be up to the web site owners. A banner ad would be very
nice...
Perhaps if you contacted the web site owners directly, they would be
willing to use your banner ad. My part of the Hero side of
Mactyre.net is not very big and doesn't get the traffic that Shelley's
side does, but I'll offer to place an add on my Hero related pages.
Matthew
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Matthew Mactyre
mcm@mactyre.net
http://www.mactyre.net
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 15:33:33 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: So What Now?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sat, 20 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
> << What about advertising on some of the larger, well trafficked Hero
> related web sites? >>
>
> That would be up to the web site owners. A banner ad would be very nice...
Make a banner ad and I will put it on my site, as well link to GRG's site.
If Hero makes one, I'll do it for them too.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 15:39:36 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: The Future of Hero 4.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sat, 20 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
> << But here is your problem: The public believes that Champions is out
> of print because Hero Games has not been showing a presence>>
>
> That is one of the dumbest leaps of "logic" I've ever heard. Sorry, but it
> still frustrates the hell out of me. Just because you don't see a Chevy ad for
> 3 months... dopes that mean Chevy's are no longer being manufactured?
It may be dumb, but this is what is happening. I go into game stores I
don't see wall posters for Hero, I don't see Hero product on the shelves.
If I do see Hero product, it is usally old, out of date material.
I do see ads for Magic, of the newest TSR product (or, at least, I did),
or something SJG is doing (like an upcoming GURPS book), or some White
Wolf Vampire: the unending game of goth and angst product.
Mark, people are only telling you what they perceive, not what is really
happening (like the fact you have a ton of BBB). You may find it hard to
believe (and feel we are being negative), but this is the way things look
to us, and since we are the consumers (and we are posting from all over
the US and even the world) it should tell you something if people are
reporting this sort of perception of Hero and it's products and policies.
If you have plans to change that, more power to you. I for one, eagerly
await your new product line, both Hero and Fuzion. Hero, becuase it will
hopefully put new life into the best universsal system around, and Fuzion
because it will provide more source material for my Hero games.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
X-Sender: bastet@pop.iquest.net
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 16:14:27 -0500
From: TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net>
Subject: Re: The Future of Hero 4.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>> That is one of the dumbest leaps of "logic" I've ever heard. Sorry, but
>> it still frustrates the hell out of me. Just because you don't see a
>> Chevy ad for 3 months... does that mean Chevy's are no longer being
>> manufactured?
>
>The "public", generally speaking, is a very dumb entity. :]
'A person is smart. People are stupid.'
I forget who said this quote, but it reminds me alot of this. In any case,
it's a common rule of advertising that you want people to be aware your
product exists:).
It's sad but true that most places I find Hero Games products have had them
on the shelves for years and simply not sold them yet. I have to order
everything I get.
TokyoMark
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 13:19:13 -0800
From: Darrin Kelley <flashbak@pacbell.net>
Reply-To: flashbak@pacbell.net
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: The Future of Hero 4.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
GoldRushG wrote:
> << But here is your problem: The public believes that Champions is out
>
> of print because Hero Games has not been showing a presence>>
>
> That is one of the dumbest leaps of "logic" I've ever heard. Sorry,
> but it
> still frustrates the hell out of me. Just because you don't see a
> Chevy ad for
> 3 months... dopes that mean Chevy's are no longer being manufactured?
It may be a dumb leap of logic, but it is also the perception that
many retailers and fans seem to have. The local ones especially. Can
they get Gold Rush products? I have maybe seen 1 copy of each in one of
the local stores when they were released, and that was it. No reorders.
I suggest that you talk to a few of the distributors and see what is
going on.
I sympathize with your frustration fully. But you need to eliminate
that perception.
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 13:26:39 -0800
From: Darrin Kelley <flashbak@pacbell.net>
Reply-To: flashbak@pacbell.net
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: The Future of Hero 4.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
GoldRushG wrote:
> << You at Gold Rush will never be able to take Hero 4 as far as you
> really
> want without ownership. >>
>
> You, sir, are very, very wrong about this.
Then I invite you to prove me wrong. I really do. I will gladly eat
crow if you manage to bring the Hero System to its ultimate potential
without ownership. But given the egos involved, I don't really believe
it. This is just my opinion.
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 16:33:21 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Reply-To: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: So What Now?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sat, 20 Dec 1997, Vox Ludator! wrote:
> At 01:26 AM 12/20/97 +0000, Brian Wong wrote:
> > And those kids are the next generation of the hobby. Ensuring they're
> > there is ensuring this all isn't going to be something done only in
> > nursing homes in 40-60 years.
>
> I'm a lot less worried about where the hobby will be in 40-60 years than
> where it's going to be NEXT year. RPGs are something I do for my own
> enjoyment, not for the betterment of humanity :/, and thus my concerns are
> focussed on the selfish motivations of "how is this going to improve my own
> gaming environment?"
>
I will be kind of curious to see what happens, though. I'm kind of glad
the fad is over - I can deal with RPG's being obscure or being
considered Satanic better than them being considered juvenile. (I still
cringe at the thought of the D&D cartoon.) But who's to say the trend
won't return in 10 or 20 years, like lava lamps and UFO's?
My hope is that RPG's can become an enduring interest to a small group,
like chess. Most people have heard of chess, many people have played it
enough to know the basic concepts, but relatively few people (children or
adults) are really into it. RPGing is certainly on a smaller scale, but
in some ways it occupies a comparable niche already. Many Magic: the Fad
players are aware that CCG's are somehow related to D&D, whatever that
was. Some even get into RPG's because of that awareness. If RPG's can
maintain that level of awareness when Magic gives way to the next
trend, role-playing's future might be fairly secure.
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 14:03:26 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: So What Now?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>> That would be up to the web site owners. A banner ad would be very nice...
>
>Make a banner ad and I will put it on my site, as well link to GRG's site.
>If Hero makes one, I'll do it for them too.
So will I, and, I suspect, most of the Circle of Heros website folks.
----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
X-Sender: naneiden@iswest.com
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 14:08:15 -0800
From: Nic Neidenbach <naneiden@iswest.com>
Subject: Cry for Vehicle Help
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Hi all,
I'm running a game tonight, and I need a write up for a V-TOL. It needs to
carry about a dozen heroes, fly pretty fast, and have some armor. I'm in
such a rush to get the adventure finished, I don't think I'll have time to
puzzle though the rules for vehicles. Anyone have something laying around
they can email me?
Thanks!
-Nic
+-------------------------------------------------+
| naneiden@iswest.com |
| http://www.iswest.com/~naneiden/ |
| "Kame...hame..ha!" - Goku, Gohan & Goten |
+-------------------------------------------------+
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: The Future of Hero 4.
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 22:31:29 +0000 (GMT)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> > Hero Games made us their publishers of 4th Ed. books. We are in the
> > same role (with essentially the same license) that ICE was in 2
> > years ago. But we have a smaller staff. ;) Just FYI.
>
> As I suspected. But you guys don't have the MERP, Rolmaster and the
> Tolkoen Estate diverting your attention from working on Hero System
> products either. And I hope you manage grow based on the efforts you are
> making. Hero 4 deserves that type of pure attention from someone.
However, Gold Rush Games has even more diversions.
It has a complete Fuzion line with Usagi Yojimbo and Sengoku. It has
Crunchy Frog Games products, and it has a line of import videos.
Actually, there's even more when you come down to it. Check
out their webpage.
> > This is where I start to beat my head against the wall. The rulebook
> > is *not* out of print. We have a ton of these things (almost literally)
> > and have been regularly selling them to distributors. *Somebody*
> > is buying them, I
> > assure you. Why do so many people claim that Champions is out of
> > print? Why, oh Why?
>
> But here is your problem: The public believes that Champions is out
> of print because Hero Games has not been showing a presence, except with
> Fuzion, for quite some time. Even many of the retailers believe it. I
> know this, because I do talk to alot of the local ones. They don't
> believe they can get the rulebook anymore. You need to get the word out.
Exactly. Perception is reality. Common perception is that Hero
no longer exists. Perception being reality, then it can be said that Hero
no longer exists.
You can scream all you want that copies are sitting in a
warehouse, but unless you can convince the public at large thet they are
there and available; they effectivly don't exist.
Need to do something Hero has never done much of at all.
Need to blitzcreig the gaming world with advertizement.
> > Oh, believe me, you don't need to convince me of that fact! It's our
> > number
> > one priority right now, which explains our more active net (and list)
> > presence, our ads, our upcoming products, our convention support
> > program, and
>
> I'm glad to see this effort, believe me. It is way past time that
> someone in the publishing department actually showed this list they
> cared for more than just spamming us. I have been on this list for 6
More than that. When we disagree with Hero we often get dismissed
out of hand as being no more than a small oddball fringe of Hero's
Market. A fatal mistake. Not only are there many people on this list.
But for every one that posts, there's likely 4 more. In addition we
are spread throughout the world. We communite with other gamers at
cons and at stores.
For everyone of us there's often a whole group of people not
active here that we know, plus a local store. Hero makes a move in
here and word spreads fast.
It's not uncommon to walk into a store today and here about
something that happened on the net.
A group like this is both a company's marketing dream and
worst nightmare come true all in one.
In today's world one word printed on the net can make or
break a company.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
"The CCG is a natural extension of the Operating Sys... Er, Role Playing
System." --- Something I swear Richard Garfield (WoTC) must have said at
some point.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"John and Ron Prins\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 97 22:36:28
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:09:04 -0500 (EST), John and Ron Prins wrote:
>>Some recent discussion on the list brought up an aspect of the Aid power I
>>had never considered. Can Aid be used to grant powers that the target
>>doesn't have? For that matter can the other adjustment powers? Say an
>>aborption to energy blast that gives the user an energy blast they don't
>>normally have acess to.
>
>IMO, no, you shouldn't be able to Aid someone if they don't have the power.
>That's what 'Useable By Others' exists for. The same logic applies to
>Absorption; if you don't have the power, how can you absorb to it?
I agree with the first, and have a clean mechanic for the second: you
could Absorb to a mimic VPP.
Or you could use Missile Reflection and Damage Shield with VSFX in some
cases (eg Feedback, who gives as good as he gets)
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
Web Page created by Text2Web v1.3.6 by Dev Virdi
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Date: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 01:52 PM