Week Ending February 14, 1998
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From: sdgf@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 07:09:41 +1000
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Subject: Re: Hero Templates
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At 10:34 PM 2/4/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Agreed... Although I still say that we should try to cover the various
>power levels suggested in the Hero System Rulesbook, and attempt to make
>the templates as versatile as possible (when you develop a base or a
>plug-in, try to think in terms of "how could I make this useful in a
>Fantasy Hero or Star Hero campaign, without diluting its usefulness in a
>superhero campaign?")
>
i'd say the do heroic templates, and let supers put in enhancements. . .
so fer eg do a ninja and then they can add DC's and stuff fer a super-ninja. . .
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From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 07:49:22 +1000
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Subject: Re: Sample template (very rough draft)
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At 08:28 AM 2/5/98 -0500, you wrote:
>On 2/4/98 4:01 PM John Desmarais (johndesmarais@yahoo.com) Said:
>
>>The change in PD and ED I can see, but why raise the EGO and PRE on a
>>template?
>
>Because, as these templates are for use by beginners, those stats are the
>most overlooked by beginners, yet are very important to good role-playing.
>
>Plus, almost every single Hero should be at least slightly above normal
>in both of these areas.
>
yes but that's no reason to *have* it. Yeah marginal increase ok, but
otherwise you fall into the 'everyone's got everything' trap- where
all pc's are completly self-sufficient, instead of being 'game realistic'
and maybe actually *gasp* vunerable to a particular attack form.
. . . i mean why? Why?? WHY????????????
oh, i mean 'why not' . . . .
>David A. Fair |
>SDS International | Think Different
>dfair@sdslink.com |
>
>
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 98 22:19:13
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)
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On Fri, 6 Feb 1998 16:48:02 -0800 (PST), Anthony Jackson wrote:
>qts writes:
>
>> So how would you suggest we modify MR? Say a -1 per 10AP?
>
>Make reflection a separate power from deflection; if you wanted H4 missile
>reflection, simply link the two powers. Base the cost of missile reflection on
>the # of damage classes which could be reflected. Missile reflection would
>_not_ count as a defense, though of course it could be linked to one (link it
>to missile deflection, and a successful deflection would of course mean you
>take no damage).
That too sounds reasonable, but let's go back a stage: do you have a
problem with Deflection per se - are you happy about putting Advantages
like AOE on it?
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 08:43:38 +1000
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Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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At 11:37 AM 2/6/98 -0800, you wrote:
>> However, regular reduction should be expanded to the 100% level.
>> Put a huge Stop Sign on it, but put it in the book. It's not that bad,
>> really. The high cost makes it prohibitive. 120 point to be totally
>> impervious to physical attacks.
>
> Yep. And very in genre.
>
No it isn't. Most 'invunerable' supers get damaged eventually, and hero
is a game of NO absolutes. (and please don't do the 'that in itself is an
absolute' line)
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Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 17:05:43 -0600
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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Yup, I agree that there should be no absolute defense power; even Superman, virtually the most invulnerable character in the DC Universe pre-Crisis, occasionally ran into someone so tough that the Man of Steel could be hurt, even without magic/kryptonite/red suns, etc.
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
On 2/8/98, at 8:43 AM, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
>At 11:37 AM 2/6/98 -0800, you wrote:
>>> However, regular reduction should be expanded to the 100% level.
>>> Put a huge Stop Sign on it, but put it in the book. It's not that bad,
>>> really. The high cost makes it prohibitive. 120 point to be totally
>>> impervious to physical attacks.
>>
>> Yep. And very in genre.
>>
>
>No it isn't. Most 'invunerable' supers get damaged eventually, and hero
>is a game of NO absolutes. (and please don't do the 'that in itself is an
>absolute' line)
Common problems need Uncommon Solutions!
http://www.uncommonsolutions.com
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!
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Date: 07 Feb 1998 19:27:48 -0500
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>>>>> "BW" == Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> writes:
BW> Paralysis by COM. :) while it sounds silly ("you're frozen by her
BW> beauty"); it actually fits some mythological concepts. Dryads, a few
BW> goddesses, etc. can do this.
Um... Mind Control, single command, "look at me".
The problem with changing the "defense" of Entangle from Strength to some
other characteristic is that suddenly you cannot use other attacks --
Energy Blast and Killing Attacks -- to break them. That is a *SIGNIFICANT*
shift in the power balance.
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--
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover
\ head.
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From: Yelomonkey@aol.com
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 20:02:42 EST
Subject: Templates, collected ramblings
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Maby I have a bit of an unorthodox view of the HERO system rules, but I dont
see them as a game so much as the tools to build a game. Champions , Star HERO
, Fantasy Hero are all seprate games unto themselvs, just built with common
tools. While this is wonderfull for the creative who are willing to work at
haveing fun many new players see the work long before the rewards, some how so
many stop at the work and never see the reward. Part of this is inhearent in
the system, you dont just pick a spell (Ill take a magic missle oh and throw
in a fireball too will you.....) you build a spell and you decide how it
interacts with the game's reality. This is a two edged sword of sorts , I love
knowing that my spell worked the way I intended yet for the new player it is
truely daunting to decide just how to do what you want, let alone decide what
you want do. IMHO Templates would go a long way twords makeing the game more
acessable to new players. Yet you seem to be selling them short. Dont stop at
just building the easy archtypes build them all for all styles of play, supers
, heroic, fantasy, star hero, ect...... And dont sell short the possibilty of
a book of just templates, granted it would have to be HERO Plus. A book of
this sort could help build new characters , possibly add some continuity to
the hero universe and help in desiging adventures as well as in developeing
new geners. Please dont leave out agents, cops, swat teams ,any one. I realize
that this would be a mamoth undertakeing and will pledge my freetime to seeing
it thrugh. So far shellheads (battlesuits) have been my thing and any thing I
can through into the arena on them I will.
The Evershinning Yellowmonkey
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Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 17:53:23 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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>>> However, regular reduction should be expanded to the 100% level.
>>> Put a huge Stop Sign on it, but put it in the book. It's not that bad,
>>> really. The high cost makes it prohibitive. 120 point to be totally
>>> impervious to physical attacks.
>>
>> Yep. And very in genre.
>>
>
>No it isn't. Most 'invunerable' supers get damaged eventually, and hero
>is a game of NO absolutes. (and please don't do the 'that in itself is an
>absolute' line)
well it is heh heh, but... thats why I use the ignores damage reduction
advantage for +1/2 in my game... caveat emptor
----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 07 Feb 98 18:45:04 -0800
Subject: In support of 'Advantage
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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l > From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
l >
l > I wish to echo Brian/Rook's concept of an 'Advantaged' advantage,
l > the flip side of 'limited'. Yes, "You can just do this anyway", but it
l > really helps having it in the rules.
Advantaged just can't work conceptually. It's a simple matter to
take utility away from a power, and estimate how much it's effectiveness
has been reduced. It's quite another to add utility to a power. I
have never seen a version of Advantaged that actually made sense in
this regard.
If anyone has a write-up of Advantaged, please post it.
I'd be happily change my mind if I saw a workable version.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 07 Feb 98 18:53:06 -0800
Subject: Re: The Great Linked Deb
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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b > From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
b > At 10:36 AM 2/4/1998 EST, SteveL1979@aol.com wrote:
b > > In reviewing my notes in preparation for meetings in San Francisco
b > >week, I found I do not have a concise, thorough summary of the Great
b > >Debate. The list FAQ touches on the subject, but only briefly.
b > > Is there, or does anyone have, a thorough review of the debate,
b > >all of the basic points/questions/concerns and the arguments made
b > >about each point? If so, I would appreciate receiving a copy or an
b > URL.
b >
b > I was originally going to respond directly, but I'm going to put
b > the list so folks can correct any misstatements of fact I make.
...
OK, that's half of it...
The other half gets into how attacks work. If you Link two attacks,
they go off together. But, there is also a prohibition against making
multiple attacks. In the course of the GLD it the question comes up:
can you fire two attacks at once (at the same target, with the same
attack roll) *only* if they are Linked, or is it possible by default?
If the former, the Linked limitation actually gives the power an ability
it didn't have before. If the latter - well, it's never stated anywhere,
and it's never been in an example or anything (Robot Warriors was the only
Hero Game that had any kind of Gang Fire rules).
So the question is, can you 'gang fire' two or more attacks in a single
attack roll? If you can, by default, then the Linked limitation makes
a bit more sense. If you can't (without Linked), then there needs to be
an advantage version of Linked - Linkable has been proposed - that allows
you to do so.
___
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Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 19:15:13 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
Subject: Re: Sample template (very rough draft)
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> >>The change in PD and ED I can see, but why raise the EGO and PRE on a
> >>template?
> >
> >Because, as these templates are for use by beginners, those stats are the
> >most overlooked by beginners, yet are very important to good role-playing.
> >
> >Plus, almost every single Hero should be at least slightly above normal
> >in both of these areas.
>
> yes but that's no reason to *have* it. Yeah marginal increase ok, but
> otherwise you fall into the 'everyone's got everything' trap- where
> all pc's are completly self-sufficient, instead of being 'game realistic'
> and maybe actually *gasp* vunerable to a particular attack form.
Oh but there is a reason to have it. Lets look at the averages from the
BBB:
Ave was done by throwing out the high and low. Aveall is ave of everything,
base is
what I recommended template bases consider for usage.
Martial Artists: Aveall
Ave base
E 10,11,11,14,14,13 12.166 12.25
12
P 13,18,18,18,20,20 17.833
18.5 18
Bricks:
E 12,10,10,11,10, 5 9.66
10.25 10
P 25,20,25,15,25,20 21.66
22.5 23
Energy Projectors:
E 10,11,11, 8,11,10, 8,10,18,20,13 11.818 11.33 11
P 15,15,20,20,15,15,10,15,20,25,13 16.636 16.44 16
So it's clear from here that the average starting character is not at
10 Pre. Ego is much closer to 10 however.
--
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 20:07:25 -0800
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On Saturday, February 07, 1998 3:39 PM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "BW" == Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> writes:
>
>BW> Paralysis by COM. :) while it sounds silly ("you're frozen by her
>BW> beauty"); it actually fits some mythological concepts. Dryads, a
few
>BW> goddesses, etc. can do this.
>
>Um... Mind Control, single command, "look at me".
Not quite good enough. There is no reason why Mental Defense should
defend you against extraordinary beauty. Besides, I'd be glad to look
at you while beating you up; it makes it much simpler.
>The problem with changing the "defense" of Entangle from Strength to
some
>other characteristic is that suddenly you cannot use other attacks --
>Energy Blast and Killing Attacks -- to break them. That is a
*SIGNIFICANT*
>shift in the power balance.
>
Yes, it is. Thus, it should be a very expensive Advantage.
Additionally, you might determine ways in which other abilities may
help, as well as other characters.
True, we could create an entirely new power for this. However,
Entangle does such a good job for its present, limited field of
effect, that it might be best to explore expanding it rather than
creating an untested new power for the effect.
Then again, maybe not. Needs investigation and playtesting.
Filksinger
Filksinger
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Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 23:10:24 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@mars.superlink.net>
Subject: Side Effects and Requires Skill Roll
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I've been working on this little variation for a while now. I'm not sure
it is complete, but with 5th ed coming.... Besides, I'm getting tired of
the template discussion.
-----
Requires Skill Roll (addendum)
If the normal skill roll for this power is worse the 14-, use the
Activation chart to determine the limitation. For example, a fantasy hero
mage has a 30 active point spell and a skill level of 13-. In fantasy
hero, he has a -3 on his skill roll (-1 per 10 active point) making his
normal skill roll a 10-. This spell would have a -1 1/4 Require Skill Roll
limitation.
Side Effect
This limitation causes something bad to happen to the character when he
uses the power. Usually Side Effect is used to simulate an effect which
happens to a character when he falls to active a power, due to a failed
Skill Roll or Activation Roll. The effect is purchased as a normal power.
The side effect power cannot miss the character and the character does not
apply his defenses against the side effect's attack.
There are three different types of side effect: one that always occurs, one
that occurs only when an attack power misses its target, and one that
occurs only when the power fails to activate due to a failed Skill Roll or
Activation Roll.
When the side effect always occurs, the limitation is worth -1/4 for each
FULL 10 active points in the side effect power. Otherwise the limitation is
worth -1/4 for each FULL 15 active points in the side effect power. If the
side effect occurs when either a skill roll or an attack fails or if there
are two skill rolls which both must suceed, the power gains an additional
-1/4 limitation.
A Side Effect can also be a Disadvantage which effects the character when
a power is activated. Treat the cost of the Disadvantage as the active
points of the side effect power. Disadvantages gained by side effect last
for five minutes. This time can be raised up the time chart by adding five
points to the active cost of the side effect power. For example, when
Firelight uses his supernova power he becomes vulnerable to cold, heat and
light powers for an hour after. A x1 1/2 STUN vulnerability versus a
several common attack power is a 15 point disadvantage. Making it last
an hour raises the cost to 20 points. Since the effect happens every time
he uses the power, the limitation is -1/2.
If the side effect power's cost is more than twice the active point cost
of the main power, the side effect power's cost is treated as twice the
active point cost of the main power for determining the limitation value.
For example, if Firelight's pen light power has 10 active points (change
environment, light, 1 hex), then no matter how big a side effect occurs
when he uses it, only 20 points in side effect power are possible, limiting
the disadvantage to -1/2 if the side effect happens every time the pen
light is lit, or -1/4 if the side effect only happens if firelight fails
his activation roll.
-----
This write up just generalizes the table in the BBB and gives a better
definition to using disadvantages. I might drop the last paragraph
just because it's hard to describe without using the word "power" a half
a dozen times.
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X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 22:24:29 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: How big is a hex again?
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Yes, I know a hex is "2m across", but as far as I know it's never
explicitly stated whether this is 2m side-to-side or 2m corner-to-corner,
and it makes a big difference.
Timothy Sallume, in his "Headquarters Supplement Rules" (late of the
Digital Hero page) says that a hex is about 43 square feet. From this I
take it he measures his hexes side-to-side. I found measuring corner to
corner a tiny bit easier:
Imagine a "Y" shape within the hex that divides it into three equal
sections, each tine of the Y ending in a corner of the hex. If the hex is
2m from corner to corner, then each side of the three resulting
parallelograms is 1m long, and each parallelogram is 1 square meter in
area; the entire hex is 3 square meters.
3 x 39.37^2 = 4650 sq. in., or 32.3 sq. ft.
If the hex is 2m side to side, well, it's still easy to calculate total
area using the above corner to corner method. Hexes are shaped such that
any hex that is 7 inches across side to side will be 8 inches across corner
to corner. Use any measurements you like, those are the proportions. So a
hex that's 78.74 inches (2m) side to side will be about 90 inches corner to
corner.
3 x 45.00^2 = 6075 sq. in., or 42.19 sq. ft.
So which is correct? The BBB never says, even where "hex" is defined in
the Glossary. Illustrations on pages 143, 186 and 191 may be interpreted
as defining hexes side to side, but the "Area Effect - Cone" illo on page
91 suggests otherwise; that cone is clearly using a hex corner, not a side,
as its point of origin, so the character is facing that corner. The Hero
Games logo on the front of the book also argues for a corner to corner
definition: a generic hero is 2m tall for purposes of calculating Growth,
Shrinking, etc. The illustration in the logo shows the character in front
of a hex balanced on one corner. If the character were standing with feet
together, instead of spread out so far, he'd be the same height as the hex.
For characters moving at low velocities, it may not make much difference in
most games. But when I build a headquarters, I need to know whether the
hexes I pay for contain 32.3 or 42.19 square feet of space.
Damon
===================
If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research,
would it?
-- Einstein
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 20:29:48 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
Subject: Re: In support of 'Advantage
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> l > I wish to echo Brian/Rook's concept of an 'Advantaged' advantage,
> l > the flip side of 'limited'. Yes, "You can just do this anyway", but it
> l > really helps having it in the rules.
>
> Advantaged just can't work conceptually. It's a simple matter to
> take utility away from a power, and estimate how much it's effectiveness
> has been reduced. It's quite another to add utility to a power. I
> have never seen a version of Advantaged that actually made sense in
> this regard.
>
> If anyone has a write-up of Advantaged, please post it.
Well, I posted one about a week ago:
Advantaged:
If no other reasonable method can be found to construct an effect,
a power may have a new advantage added onto it. All such advantages MUST
be approved by the GM. The GM sets the value and exact details of the new
advantage, based on the players proposal. The GM must reserve the right to
disallow any proposed advantage if they feel it would upset the balance,
flow, or feel of the game. This method of modifying a power should be used
with extreme caution and is not intended for inexperienced players or GMs.
A new GM should also reserve the right to disallow any new advantages on
the grounds of not yet being comfortable with the inner workings of the
games play balance.
To construct a new advantage, take a close look at the effect desired.
If possible, use limitations or a substitute power to achieve the effect. If
this does not achieve the desired effect; come up with a detailed description
of the advantage and all it's possible game effects. The GM should examine
this proposal and weigh it against the needs of the game, it's power level,
and feel. The GM should make any modifications needed and either assign a
value or turn down the request. The value assigned should range from +1/4 to
+2 and should be based on the advantages usefulness when compared to other
advantages. If it's effectiveness seems to make it worth more than +2, it
is recommended that it be stripped down a bit in utility.
> I'd be happily change my mind if I saw a workable version.
I'm not sure if mine's "workable", but it's open to debate.
Maybe rather than just dismiss it or toss it in, we should see if
we can construct one that works.
--
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 22:55:08 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Constant Pwr+Multipower q
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To: champ-l@omg.org
If one of my players puts a constant power, like Darkness, into a
multipower, does she have to keep the points allocated to Darkness in
order to keep the effect up? Or can she reallocate points on her next
phase and keep the Darkness up so long as she keeps paying END?
Can a character with Darkness keep more than one Darkness field going at
the same time, so long as they pay all applicable END costs?
Thanks!
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 23:00:21 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Side Effects and Requires Skill Roll
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Thanks! That helps clarify a lot.
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 00:15:15 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: More Constant Questions
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Okay, now on the chopping block are constant powers bought with extra time
limitation.
"If the power has lengthy start-up time, but can be used every phase from
then on, then the Limitation value is halved" (BBB 104).
Must constant powers with extra time halve the value of the limitation?
Consider invisiblity. Seems like you're "using the power every phase from
then on." What about Darkness? It is also a constant power, but because
it's an attack it seems like this limitation would mean that it takes some
time to "get going" with the power, but then you can fire a new darkness
attack each phase? How does it work?
Thanks, and I'll post the character that's bringing these questions up as
soon as they're answered, as reward.
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 22:59:53 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Constant Pwr+Multipower q
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>If one of my players puts a constant power, like Darkness, into a
>multipower, does she have to keep the points allocated to Darkness in
>order to keep the effect up? Or can she reallocate points on her next
>phase and keep the Darkness up so long as she keeps paying END?
Once you swap the points from a power in a Multipower it turns off, unless
its a long lasting instant (like entangle). So the darkness goes poof, as
do powers like Mind Scan, etc
>Can a character with Darkness keep more than one Darkness field going at
>the same time, so long as they pay all applicable END costs?
I believe so, its not an attack power
----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
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From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: Copied Speedsters (Re: Templates - compiled ideas)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 04:17:00 -0500
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> > I had a villain speedster with duplication, inspired by a Justice
> > League Story in which Dr. Light brought the Flash's after-images to life.
> > My villain, Photon, had typical speedster powers, including an autofire
> > punch, duplication to make four of himself, and Images so that he could
> > make another 8 apparent duplicates who had no substance. He was a pretty
> > good group villain, needless to say. As I recall, he could do several
> > hundred punches a turn with duplicated autofire multiple move-bys.
> >
> Flash number 114 I think is a recent issue wherein
> Flash is running at lightspeed and colides with a prism put in place by the
> villian. The result is that he split into seven diferent 'colors' of himself.
> Each with a diferent psych.
> The intention of the villian was to cause him to fragment into a
> group that could not work together and would break apart or find it's more
> extreme members so stuck on angles of his persona;ity that they would be
> crippled into non action.
> An odd variant of duplication UAO. :)
Didn't a similar fragmentation happen to the genie in the Aladdin cartoon
series? I'll bet the Flash issue wasn't as funny. :)
Len Carpenter
redlion@early.com
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Christopher Taylor\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 98 13:20:16
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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On Sat, 07 Feb 1998 17:53:23 -0800, Christopher Taylor wrote:
>>>> However, regular reduction should be expanded to the 100% level.
>>>> Put a huge Stop Sign on it, but put it in the book. It's not that bad,
>>>> really. The high cost makes it prohibitive. 120 point to be totally
>>>> impervious to physical attacks.
>>>
>>> Yep. And very in genre.
>>>
>>
>>No it isn't. Most 'invunerable' supers get damaged eventually, and hero
>>is a game of NO absolutes. (and please don't do the 'that in itself is an
>>absolute' line)
>
>well it is heh heh, but... thats why I use the ignores damage reduction
>advantage for +1/2 in my game... caveat emptor
Doesn't NND already qualify? You do specify a SFX for the DR, don't
you?
Why not just specify that Penetrating (ie the Penetrating part gets
through) does this? It seems appropriate. Or Armour Piercing could drop
DR by 25% each time.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Darien Phoenix Lynx\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 98 13:22:28
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Constant Pwr+Multipower q
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On Sat, 7 Feb 1998 22:55:08 -0600 (CST), Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:
>If one of my players puts a constant power, like Darkness, into a
>multipower, does she have to keep the points allocated to Darkness in
>order to keep the effect up?
Yes.
>Or can she reallocate points on her next
>phase and keep the Darkness up so long as she keeps paying END?
To do that you need a plain power.
>Can a character with Darkness keep more than one Darkness field going at
>the same time, so long as they pay all applicable END costs?
Yes, assuming they have more than one Darkness field available.
qts
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Stainless Steel Rat\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 98 13:25:21
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!
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On 07 Feb 1998 19:27:48 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "BW" == Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> writes:
>
>BW> Paralysis by COM. :) while it sounds silly ("you're frozen by her
>BW> beauty"); it actually fits some mythological concepts. Dryads, a few
>BW> goddesses, etc. can do this.
>
>Um... Mind Control, single command, "look at me".
>
>The problem with changing the "defense" of Entangle from Strength to some
>other characteristic is that suddenly you cannot use other attacks --
>Energy Blast and Killing Attacks -- to break them. That is a *SIGNIFICANT*
>shift in the power balance.
BOECV is a pretty expensive Advantage, and you'd have to specify a
reasonable manner of escape (eg make Ego Roll at -1 per 1 Def/Bod)
qts
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Darien Phoenix Lynx\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 98 13:28:46
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: More Constant Questions
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On Sun, 8 Feb 1998 00:15:15 -0600 (CST), Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:
>Okay, now on the chopping block are constant powers bought with extra time
>limitation.
>
>"If the power has lengthy start-up time, but can be used every phase from
>then on, then the Limitation value is halved" (BBB 104).
>
>Must constant powers with extra time halve the value of the limitation?
>Consider invisiblity. Seems like you're "using the power every phase from
>then on."
You're getting the ET Limitation because if you get hit during the ET,
the effect does not go off. Once the effect is in place, it doesn't
matter.
> What about Darkness? It is also a constant power, but because
>it's an attack it seems like this limitation would mean that it takes some
>time to "get going" with the power, but then you can fire a new darkness
>attack each phase? How does it work?
This is not how the ET limitation works: you use the ET *every* time
you fire the power.
qts
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Joe Mucchiello\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 98 13:32:27
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Side Effects and Requires Skill Roll
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On Sat, 07 Feb 1998 23:10:24 -0500, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>I've been working on this little variation for a while now. I'm not sure
>it is complete, but with 5th ed coming.... Besides, I'm getting tired of
>the template discussion.
>
>-----
>Requires Skill Roll (addendum)
>If the normal skill roll for this power is worse the 14-, use the
>Activation chart to determine the limitation. For example, a fantasy hero
>mage has a 30 active point spell and a skill level of 13-. In fantasy
>hero, he has a -3 on his skill roll (-1 per 10 active point) making his
>normal skill roll a 10-. This spell would have a -1 1/4 Require Skill Roll
>limitation.
This ignores things like Complimentary Skill Rolls, plus you have to
recalculate every time the stat or skill changes. YUK!
>Side Effect
>This limitation causes something bad to happen to the character when he
>uses the power. Usually Side Effect is used to simulate an effect which
>happens to a character when he falls to active a power, due to a failed
>Skill Roll or Activation Roll. The effect is purchased as a normal power.
>The side effect power cannot miss the character and the character does not
>apply his defenses against the side effect's attack.
<snip>
Why are you repeating what's in the books?
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 07:57:06 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Constant Pwr+Multipower q
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 10:55 PM 2/7/1998 -0600, Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:
>If one of my players puts a constant power, like Darkness, into a
>multipower, does she have to keep the points allocated to Darkness in
>order to keep the effect up? Or can she reallocate points on her next
>phase and keep the Darkness up so long as she keeps paying END?
She'd have to keep that slot up.
>Can a character with Darkness keep more than one Darkness field going at
>the same time, so long as they pay all applicable END costs?
I don't know what it is officially (if anything), but I'd allow it.
---
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 08:06:43 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: How big is a hex again?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 10:24 PM 2/7/1998 -0600, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
>Yes, I know a hex is "2m across", but as far as I know it's never
>explicitly stated whether this is 2m side-to-side or 2m corner-to-corner,
>and it makes a big difference.
Side to side. If you look at a lot of the diagrams in the HSR,
especially the one on page 146, this is pretty clearly indicated, if not
explicitly stated.
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 08:08:14 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 11:16 AM 2/7/1998 -0500, Joe Claffey Jr. wrote:
>Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> wrote,
>>At 01:56 PM 2/6/1998 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>>>Using Missile Deflection against non-ranged attacks is just a nonsensical
>>>concept. Characters can Block HTH attacks by default; the only thing
>>>Missile Deflection does is extend that no ranged attacks.
>>
>> Not exactly. You can only Block one attack per Phase, but you can
>>Missile Deflect multiple attacks.
>
> Trevor is correct. Both Block and Missile Deflection can block multiple
>attacks, at a cumulative -2 OCV to each roll.
I just double-checked, and you are quite correct.
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 08:12:49 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: More Constant Questions
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 12:15 AM 2/8/1998 -0600, Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:
>Okay, now on the chopping block are constant powers bought with extra time
>limitation.
>
>"If the power has lengthy start-up time, but can be used every phase from
>then on, then the Limitation value is halved" (BBB 104).
>
>Must constant powers with extra time halve the value of the limitation?
>Consider invisiblity. Seems like you're "using the power every phase from
>then on." What about Darkness? It is also a constant power, but because
>it's an attack it seems like this limitation would mean that it takes some
>time to "get going" with the power, but then you can fire a new darkness
>attack each phase? How does it work?
It's doesn't *have* to take the reduced value, but if it doesn't and the
time is more than a Full Phase then it can't be use for more than a Phase
at a time. If it is for a Full Phase then the character can't do anything
else (though he does get full normal DCV, unlike the situation if she were
to take Concentration).
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 08:22:19 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Side Effects and Requires Skill Roll
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At 11:10 PM 2/7/1998 -0500, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>Requires Skill Roll (addendum)
>If the normal skill roll for this power is worse the 14-, use the
>Activation chart to determine the limitation. For example, a fantasy hero
>mage has a 30 active point spell and a skill level of 13-. In fantasy
>hero, he has a -3 on his skill roll (-1 per 10 active point) making his
>normal skill roll a 10-. This spell would have a -1 1/4 Require Skill Roll
>limitation.
I don't think so. One of the advantages of RSR over Activation is that
you can always voluntarily use the Power at a lower power level for a
better roll. Plus, you'd have to recalculate all of your RSR Powers every
time you got +1 to your Skill Roll (or Skill Levels that could be applied
to it).
>Side Effect
>This limitation causes something bad to happen to the character when he
>uses the power. Usually Side Effect is used to simulate an effect which
>happens to a character when he falls to active a power, due to a failed
>Skill Roll or Activation Roll. The effect is purchased as a normal power.
>The side effect power cannot miss the character and the character does not
>apply his defenses against the side effect's attack.
>
>There are three different types of side effect: one that always occurs, one
>that occurs only when an attack power misses its target, and one that
>occurs only when the power fails to activate due to a failed Skill Roll or
>Activation Roll.
Good distinction.
>When the side effect always occurs, the limitation is worth -1/4 for each
>FULL 10 active points in the side effect power. Otherwise the limitation is
>worth -1/4 for each FULL 15 active points in the side effect power. If the
>side effect occurs when either a skill roll or an attack fails or if there
>are two skill rolls which both must suceed, the power gains an additional
>-1/4 limitation.
I like this in principle, but for simplicity I think I'd stick to
something close to tradition: -1/4 per 15 Active Points, halved if the Side
Effect occurs only on a failed Roll (whether Skill, Activation, or Attack).
>A Side Effect can also be a Disadvantage which effects the character when
>a power is activated. Treat the cost of the Disadvantage as the active
>points of the side effect power. Disadvantages gained by side effect last
>for five minutes. This time can be raised up the time chart by adding five
>points to the active cost of the side effect power. For example, when
>Firelight uses his supernova power he becomes vulnerable to cold, heat and
>light powers for an hour after. A x1 1/2 STUN vulnerability versus a
>several common attack power is a 15 point disadvantage. Making it last
>an hour raises the cost to 20 points. Since the effect happens every time
>he uses the power, the limitation is -1/2.
Not a bad rule. It may need some tweaking (like maybe simply giving an
additional -1/4 Limitation for each step on the time chart), but it's a start.
>If the side effect power's cost is more than twice the active point cost
>of the main power, the side effect power's cost is treated as twice the
>active point cost of the main power for determining the limitation value.
>For example, if Firelight's pen light power has 10 active points (change
>environment, light, 1 hex), then no matter how big a side effect occurs
>when he uses it, only 20 points in side effect power are possible, limiting
>the disadvantage to -1/2 if the side effect happens every time the pen
>light is lit, or -1/4 if the side effect only happens if firelight fails
>his activation roll.
I think I'd make this rule optional, or at most a recommendation.
>This write up just generalizes the table in the BBB and gives a better
>definition to using disadvantages. I might drop the last paragraph
>just because it's hard to describe without using the word "power" a half
>a dozen times.
I like it in general. Like I say, it needs a bit of tweaking, but I get
the impression that you already knew that. :-]
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 08:30:15 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Templates - bricks
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At 12:32 PM 2/7/1998 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>On Friday, February 06, 1998 9:09 PM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
><snip>
>> This brings to mind one problem I've experienced with the word "brick"
>>to mean someone with super-strength: if you haven't played Champions, then
>>you probably have never heard that word used in that context. The term is
>>derived from the VIPER villain of the same name. Almost everyone else
>>would use the term "Strongman" or something similar ("Strongarm" if you
>>want to be gender neutral).
>> Hopefully this is something that the author of The Ultimate Brick (yes,
>>it still bears that title, the last I heard) will keep in mind.
>
>For the purpose of entering beginning characters into Champions, Brick
>is probably simple enough. First, anyone playing a new game expects to
>have to learn _something_. Secondly, I have just explained "brick" to
>my seven-year-old in about two sentences, and he understands it.
>
>It isn't a difficult concept. Just keep in mind that it is a Champions
>term, and use it in Champion's contexts, and remember that
>non-Champions players might need a definition, and I don't see a
>problem with continuing to use it.
The term is easy enough to explain: "A brick is someone with
super-strength" has generally been enough in my experience. Sometimes I
have to clarify of specify to "40 or better STR" or "someone like the
Hulk," but I've never had any significant problem.
I don't think it should need explaining at all, though. I'm visualizing
someone going through a distributor's catalog or a rack of Hero Plus disks,
seeing the title "The Ultimate Brick," and thinking it's having to do with
masonry. Or going through the tables of templates looking for "Strongman"
and simply not making the mental connection that "Brick" is the table being
sought.
I'm cool with the term being bandied about among established players,
and used in GM's supplements and such. I just think that we should have a
more accessible term for those not used to "brick." That's all. :-]
On the template table, we could even give the main brick table a header
reading "Brick (Strongman)" just so folks know what we're talking about.
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Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 08:32:30 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: The Great Linked Debate
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At 12:41 PM 2/7/1998 -0600, Bryant Berggren wrote:
>At 06:53 PM 2/7/98 -0800, Opal wrote:
>>So the question is, can you 'gang fire' two or more attacks in a single
>>attack roll? If you can, by default, then the Linked limitation makes
>>a bit more sense. If you can't (without Linked), then there needs to be
>>an advantage version of Linked - Linkable has been proposed - that allows
>>you to do so.
>
>Well, either that, or they need to explain that the intention is that you
>buy the powers in question twice (i.e. once linked and once unlinked). There
>does exist the possibility, after all, that The Powers What Be actually
>simply didn't want it to be that easy to gain gangfire w/o permanent links.
Gangfire was in Robot Warriors, but not included in the BBB desite the
fact that a lot of Robot Warriors rules did get transported. I'm not sure
what that says, but I did reintroduce the Gangfire rules in TUSV. When I
hear back from Bruce and the PWB I'll let the list know what's decided on
this particular front.
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X-Sender: why@mail.superlink.net
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 11:46:42 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@mars.superlink.net>
Subject: Re: In support of 'Advantaged'
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 08:29 PM 2/7/98 -0800, Rook wrote:
> Well, I posted one about a week ago:
>Advantaged:
You should indicate that Advantaged is a stop sign advantage if this is
supposed to be the "write up".
> If no other reasonable method can be found to construct an effect,
>a power may have a new advantage added onto it. All such advantages MUST
>be approved by the GM. The GM sets the value and exact details of the new
>advantage, based on the players proposal. The GM must reserve the right to
>disallow any proposed advantage if they feel it would upset the balance,
>flow, or feel of the game. This method of modifying a power should be used
>with extreme caution and is not intended for inexperienced players or GMs.
>A new GM should also reserve the right to disallow any new advantages on
>the grounds of not yet being comfortable with the inner workings of the
>games play balance.
> To construct a new advantage, take a close look at the effect
desired.
>If possible, use limitations or a substitute power to achieve the effect. If
>this does not achieve the desired effect; come up with a detailed description
>of the advantage and all it's possible game effects. The GM should examine
>this proposal and weigh it against the needs of the game, it's power level,
>and feel. The GM should make any modifications needed and either assign a
>value or turn down the request. The value assigned should range from +1/4 to
>+2 and should be based on the advantages usefulness when compared to other
>advantages. If it's effectiveness seems to make it worth more than +2, it
>is recommended that it be stripped down a bit in utility.
I would a sentence somewhere like: "An example of Advantaged can be found
in several existing powers, such as, 'Entangle takes no damage' in the
power description for Entangle." This would imply that Advantaged is
already a part of the game and provide an example, which is the hard part
with Advantaged.
BTW, I also prefer Enhanced Power to Advantaged. I don't remember who
suggested that.
Now, may I open a can of worms? The point of adding Advantaged to the Hero
system is to satisfy the people who say that the Hero rules are not
complete since you cannot model things that require a new advantage in
rules. Right? So, in order to complete the meta rules, how about a power
enhancer called Additional Base points? This is how Teleport can double
the allowable mass for +5 points; how Aid can increase the maximum
adjustment by 2 for each +1 base cost; etc. Granted, it's not a power
advantage or limitation. It's just extra base points. I'm sure someone,
somewhere has always want to do something like this.
I'll go hide now. :-)
Joe
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Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 11:49:33 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@mars.superlink.net>
Subject: Re: In support of 'Advantaged'
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At 08:29 PM 2/7/98 -0800, Rook wrote:
> Well, I posted one about a week ago:
>Advantaged:
You should indicate that Advantaged is a stop sign advantage if this is
supposed to be the "write up".
[snip]
I would add a sentence somewhere like: "An example of Advantaged can be
found in several existing powers, such as, 'Entangle takes no damage' in
the power description for Entangle." This would imply that Advantaged is
already a part of the game and provide an example, which is the hard part
with Advantaged.
BTW, I also prefer Enhanced Power to Advantaged. I don't remember who
suggested that.
Now, may I open a can of worms? The point of adding Advantaged to the Hero
system is to satisfy the people who say that the Hero rules are not
complete since you cannot model things that require a new advantage in
rules. Right? So, in order to complete the meta rules, how about a power
enhancer called Additional Base points? This is how Teleport can double
the allowable mass for +5 points; how Aid can increase the maximum
adjustment by 2 for each +1 base cost; etc. Granted, it's not a power
advantage or limitation. It's just extra base points. I'm sure someone,
somewhere has always want to do something like this.
I'll go hide now. :-)
Joe
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Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 11:52:51 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@mars.superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Side Effects and Requires Skill Roll
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At 01:32 PM 2/8/98, \"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> wrote:
>On Sat, 07 Feb 1998 23:10:24 -0500, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>>Requires Skill Roll (addendum)
>>If the normal skill roll for this power is worse the 14-, use the
>>Activation chart to determine the limitation. For example, a fantasy hero
>>mage has a 30 active point spell and a skill level of 13-. In fantasy
>>hero, he has a -3 on his skill roll (-1 per 10 active point) making his
>>normal skill roll a 10-. This spell would have a -1 1/4 Require Skill Roll
>>limitation.
>
>This ignores things like Complimentary Skill Rolls, plus you have to
>recalculate every time the stat or skill changes. YUK!
If the complementary skill roll is always taken, then that should be
reflected in the RSR limitation. I hadn't really thought about that fully.
>>Side Effect
[snip]
><snip>
>
>Why are you repeating what's in the books?
I was proposing a completely new version of the limitation, replacing all
of the text in the book with my version. So I had to describe the purpose
behind Side Effect. (I even changed its name, in the book it's "Side
Effects".)
Joe
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Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 12:25:53 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@mars.superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Side Effects and Requires Skill Roll
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At 08:22 AM 2/8/98 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 11:10 PM 2/7/1998 -0500, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>>Requires Skill Roll (addendum)
>>If the normal skill roll for this power is worse the 14-, use the
>>Activation chart to determine the limitation. For example, a fantasy hero
>>mage has a 30 active point spell and a skill level of 13-. In fantasy
>>hero, he has a -3 on his skill roll (-1 per 10 active point) making his
>>normal skill roll a 10-. This spell would have a -1 1/4 Require Skill Roll
>>limitation.
>
> I don't think so. One of the advantages of RSR over Activation is that
>you can always voluntarily use the Power at a lower power level for a
>better roll. Plus, you'd have to recalculate all of your RSR Powers every
>time you got +1 to your Skill Roll (or Skill Levels that could be applied
>to it).
Yeah, I've backed off this changed. Please ignore my change to RSR in the
future, it causes more problems than it solves.
>>Side Effect
[snip}
>>There are three different types of side effect: one that always occurs, one
>>that occurs only when an attack power misses its target, and one that
>>occurs only when the power fails to activate due to a failed Skill Roll or
>>Activation Roll.
> Good distinction.
Thanks, I'm surprised it wasn't always like this.
>>When the side effect always occurs, the limitation is worth -1/4 for each
>>FULL 10 active points in the side effect power. Otherwise the limitation is
>>worth -1/4 for each FULL 15 active points in the side effect power. If the
>>side effect occurs when either a skill roll or an attack fails or if there
>>are two skill rolls which both must suceed, the power gains an additional
>>-1/4 limitation.
>
> I like this in principle, but for simplicity I think I'd stick to
>something close to tradition: -1/4 per 15 Active Points, halved if the Side
>Effect occurs only on a failed Roll (whether Skill, Activation, or Attack).
I don't like halved. It makes the limitation much different from the
current book description: 30 is -1/2 and 60 is -1. That's why I gave the
"limitation advantage ;-)" to unconditional side effects.
>>A Side Effect can also be a Disadvantage which effects the character when
>>a power is activated. Treat the cost of the Disadvantage as the active
>>points of the side effect power. Disadvantages gained by side effect last
>>for five minutes. This time can be raised up the time chart by adding five
>>points to the active cost of the side effect power. For example, when
>>Firelight uses his supernova power he becomes vulnerable to cold, heat and
>>light powers for an hour after. A x1 1/2 STUN vulnerability versus a
>>several common attack power is a 15 point disadvantage. Making it last
>>an hour raises the cost to 20 points. Since the effect happens every time
>>he uses the power, the limitation is -1/2.
>
> Not a bad rule. It may need some tweaking (like maybe simply giving an
>additional -1/4 Limitation for each step on the time chart), but it's a
start.
That might make more sense. I think I was still thinking in terms of -1/2
must be half the active points how do you get an advantage to reach 30
points. The only important thing in that paragraph that is not stated in
the book is that the disadvantage should last 5 minutes. I chose 5 minutes
because a 3D6 drain should recover in 4 turns; a 6d6 EB should recover
within a minute or two. Since the old write up said the disadvantage
should last as long as a similar power, I figured 5 minutes was a good
approximation.
>>If the side effect power's cost is more than twice the active point cost
>>of the main power, the side effect power's cost is treated as twice the
>>active point cost of the main power for determining the limitation value.
>>For example, if Firelight's pen light power has 10 active points (change
>>environment, light, 1 hex), then no matter how big a side effect occurs
>>when he uses it, only 20 points in side effect power are possible, limiting
>>the disadvantage to -1/2 if the side effect happens every time the pen
>>light is lit, or -1/4 if the side effect only happens if firelight fails
>>his activation roll.
>
> I think I'd make this rule optional, or at most a recommendation.
>
>>This write up just generalizes the table in the BBB and gives a better
>>definition to using disadvantages. I might drop the last paragraph
>>just because it's hard to describe without using the word "power" a half
>>a dozen times.
I even said I wasn't should about that last bit. I just wanted to avoid
someone creating a big brick with an 8- 10point change environment which,
when it failed caused a 10D6 Explosion, stunning most people around him and
only causing him a little collateral damage.
> I like it in general. Like I say, it needs a bit of tweaking, but I get
>the impression that you already knew that. :-]
Maybe.
Joe
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com>
Subject: STR and PRE was Point Crocks?????
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:14:16 -0600
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>On Sun, 1 Feb 1998, Remnant wrote:
>
>> If you don't think humans in a realistic campaign who have high STR
should
>> look muscular regardless of their COM or PRE you need to think again.
>> Looking muscular by itself doesn't necessarily make someone more
attractive
>> or more impressive, but it will generally have an effect. In the REAL
>> world high STR people have REAL muscles. These muscles take space and
>> generally show, REALLY.
Trevor Barrie replies:
>So your contention is that nobody in the REAL world is ever significantly
>stronger than they look? I can't say that that seems to be a very credible
>stance to me.
Remnant replies to the reply: :-)
If you will reread the quote that you included (see above) you will note the
word generally. This usage of "generally" is as an adverb modifying the
verb "show." The definition of "generally" as used in this sentence is:
"For the most part; ordinarily; in most but not all cases."
This to me is a very credible stance.
Thank you.
B - E - A - H - E - R - O, HERO makes the very best, RPG.
Alan
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From: "Warren E Henderson III" <warren@newenglandpc.net>
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 98 19:04:40
Reply-To: "Warren E Henderson III" <warren@newenglandpc.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Sample template (very rough draft)
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>It seems to me that a template for beginning players would do its job if a
>player could take the template, spend all the extra points on
>irrelevant/inefficient things, and still have a workable (though probably
>low powered) character. If the template itself isn't a workable character,
>then it's not really helping the beginner: they still have to learn the
>system in order to complete the template.
>
>Geoff Speare
I agree completely. I am under the impression that we are trying to come up with a set of almost ready to run
characters with some wiggle room left so every new player isn't "Crusader" or "Starburst".
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Joe Mucchiello\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 98 19:41:29
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Limited By Time (A limitation for discussion)
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On Sun, 08 Feb 1998 15:11:05 -0500, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>Uncontrolled powers can cause effects that last an indeterminate amount of
>time. I think Uncontrolled should have better guidelines on how to
>determine time limits.
>
>LIMITED BY TIME <Looking glass>
>This limitation can only be taken on Uncontrolled powers, or powers which
>bring uncontrolled effects into play, like Entangle or Mental Powers. An
>uncontrolled power with this limitation will turn itself off after a
>certain amount of time for a -1/4 limitation. For each level down the time
>chart this limitation can be increased by -1/4. The base time is normally
>5 Minutes. But certain power have different bases:
> Mental Powers 1 Hour
> Transform 1 Day
>
><Stop Sign>Optionally, this limitation can be taken on an non-Uncontrolled
>attack or adjustment power whose damage effect goes away quickly. The base
>time for such a power would be 1 Turn at -1/4. Example: Neuron's Neural
>Disruptor power could be bought as a 8D6 EB, Limited By Time, 1 Segment
>(-3/4). If Neuron attacks and hits on Phase 3, the damage is rolled
>normally, but on Phase 4 all of the STUN and BODY caused would heal back.
>If the target was STUNNED for CON he would still lose his next action.
Isn't this a Continuing Charge?
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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X-Sender: why@mail.superlink.net
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 15:08:59 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@mars.superlink.net>
Subject: Limited Power, 5th Ed. (long)
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I cannot figure out why some limitations are listed with the power and why
some are listed in the Limitations section when they only affect one power
(Beam Attack -1/4 EB only). I assume it is tradition. So, I'd like to
break that tradition. This is an attempt to clean up Limited Power. If
you extracted the Conditional Power Limitations to their own write up,
moved Beam Attack to the EB write up, and gave Costs END, No Range, and Does
No STUN a separate write up, then Limited Power would be in the same boat as
the proposed Advantaged advantage. One of the examples in the BBB is No
Knockback, which of course has its own write up.
What I'd like to see is a list of common limitations which are specific to
each power which currently everyone puts under Limited Power. I'm referring
to things like Aid's "Only Up to Starting Values". It would be nice if more
of these things were codified. This is a list of all of the current power
limitation which are tied to powers:
Aid - Only up to starting values: -1/4
Characteristics - Primary characteristic does not affect figured
characteristic: -1/2
Damage Reduction - Only versus one special effect, e.g. Fire: -1
Desolidification - Cannot move through solid objects: -1/2; Leaves body
behind: -1
END Reserve - Increased Time: -1/2 per level down the time chart
Entangle - Entangle with No Defense: -1 1/2; Entangle with 1 BODY: -1/2
Force Wall - Feedback: -1
Mind Control - Only One Command: -1/2
Mind Link - Subject Must Also Have Mind Link: -1
Regeneration - Increased Time: -1/4 per level down the time chart
Running - Turn Mode: -1/4
Swimming - Surface Only: -1
Telekinesis - Grab Only: -1/4
Here are my suggestions for more of these limitations:
Drain
Defended With PD or ED: -1/2 (This could be better defined to include PD
instead of Power Defense or PD and Power Defense combined in the
adjustment powers description.)
Duplication
All duplicates share END, STUN and BODY: -1/2 (I've had a character with
this ability. He simply existed in more than one place at the same
time. His Duplication also Cost END.)
END Reserve
(There should be more examples than just the plugging it in one.)
Energy Blast
Beam Only: -1/4 (Moved from Limited Power description.)
Does No STUN: -1 (Differs from Limited Power description.)
Flash
Defended with PD or ED: -1 1/2
Flight
Only Across a Surface: -1/4
Force Field
Non-resistant: -1
Reduces Outgoing Normal Attacks: -1/2
Reduces Outgoing Killing Attacks: -1 (Because all targets have resistant
defenses if the force field affects them.)
Images
Only One Image: -1/2 (Never noticed that one was missing until now.)
Invisibility
Increased Fringe Range: ?
KAs
Does No STUN: -3/4 (same as Limited Power description)
Mental Defense
Reduces Outgoing Mental Attacks: -1/2
Mental Illusions:
(see Mandatoty Mental Effect limitation below)
Mind Control
(see Mandatoty Mental Effect limitation below)
Mind Scan
(see Mandatoty Mental Effect limitation below)
Missile Deflection and Reflection
Takes Damage From Attack (Reflection only): -1
Multiform
All Forms Share END, STUN and BODY: -1/2
Power Defense
Reduces Outgoing Adjustment Powers: -1/2 (Assuming the character has
adjustment powers to be reduced.)
Shrinking
Cannot use Growth Momentum: -1/4 (Growth Momentum should be described
under Size Powers, in the general power rules.)
Summon
Summoned Creature Will Attack Character Immediately: -1/4 (I'm not so
sure about this one.)
Type of Summoned Creature is Always Different and Unknown: -1/2
Telepathy
(see Mandatoty Mental Effect limitation below)
Teleportation
Cannot Only Teleport to Fixed or Floating Locations: -1
Transfer
Defended With PD or ED: -1/2
New General Limitations (Based on above descriptions) - These are
limitations which would have cluttered the above list. So I put them
here.
No Noncombat Multiplier (No NCM)
This movement power does not allow the character to move faster when he
is not involved in combat. -1/4
Mandatory Mental Effect
This mental power do not work unless a certain level of effect is
achieved as described in the power's description. For each 10 points
required the power gains a -1/4 limitation. Example: Mind Guy wants a
Mind Control in which the affected person never remembers what happened
during the control. That Mind Control would take Manadatory Mental Effect
at -1/4.
Power Not Persistent
This normally persistent power, such as regeneration or power defense,
turns off when the character is unconscious. This limitation can NOT be
combined with Costs END. A Persistent power purchased with Costs END only
gets the -1/2 Costs END limitation. Power Not Persistent is a -1/4
limitation.
----
As an aside, I noticed that there are a bunch of power write ups that
reference the character's "costume" while I was researching this post. I
hope that will be changed in the new rules.
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X-Sender: why@mail.superlink.net
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 15:11:05 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@mars.superlink.net>
Subject: Limited By Time (A limitation for discussion)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Uncontrolled powers can cause effects that last an indeterminate amount of
time. I think Uncontrolled should have better guidelines on how to
determine time limits.
LIMITED BY TIME <Looking glass>
This limitation can only be taken on Uncontrolled powers, or powers which
bring uncontrolled effects into play, like Entangle or Mental Powers. An
uncontrolled power with this limitation will turn itself off after a
certain amount of time for a -1/4 limitation. For each level down the time
chart this limitation can be increased by -1/4. The base time is normally
5 Minutes. But certain power have different bases:
Mental Powers 1 Hour
Transform 1 Day
<Stop Sign>Optionally, this limitation can be taken on an non-Uncontrolled
attack or adjustment power whose damage effect goes away quickly. The base
time for such a power would be 1 Turn at -1/4. Example: Neuron's Neural
Disruptor power could be bought as a 8D6 EB, Limited By Time, 1 Segment
(-3/4). If Neuron attacks and hits on Phase 3, the damage is rolled
normally, but on Phase 4 all of the STUN and BODY caused would heal back.
If the target was STUNNED for CON he would still lose his next action.
---
I thought about making the base time just 5 minutes, but that did not seem
fair to Mental Powers or Transform. Effectively, any Entangle which only
last 1 phase should be worth about -1, right?
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 13:31:43 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
Subject: Template Bases
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So, I noticed when I got up today that there was no more new template
stuff.
Does that mean we reach agreement and should proceed to the next step?
I gues what's next is we have to design the bases.
>From there we can decide what the plugins need to look like then let
people go
off on their own and make plugins.
I posted a list of average stat values for all the 250 point
characters in the BBB.
Did everyone getit? Or should I repost it?
Did the stats it came up with look about right?
I never did figure out how many points each of those averages came up to
though.
Obviously they'll be modified a bit to fit 100 points. with whatever
doesn't fit
being shoved into plugins. And something being come up with for whatever
points are
left over.
Also, we're doing bases of
Strong
Athelete
Mental
Average
correct?
So those averages are not exactly fit for this.
Brick = Strong
Mart Arts = Athelete
But Mental and Average will have to be made by logical deduction of what
fits given the
averages.
--
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 98 23:05:03
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Templates porposal
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On Fri, 6 Feb 1998 18:11:29 -0600 (CST), Dataweaver wrote:
>OK; after much thought, I give you my official proposal:
>
>Use HSR exclusively; characters will be 100+150 built for the superhero
>genre.
>
>Every character gets a single 100-point base, 120 points-worth of
>plug-ins, 15 points of background, and 15 points to customize.
>Furthermore, disadvantages are provided by 135 points-worth of packs and
>15 points to customize.
>
>There are three bases: Brain, Brawn, and Athlete. Brain emphasizes INT,
>EGO, and PRE; Brawn emphasizes STR, CON, and BODY; Athlete emphasizes DEX,
>with a secondary focus on STR, CON, and BODY.
>
>Power Plug-ins come in three sizes: Minor (30 points), Standard (60
>points), and Augmented (120 points); a character can take a single
>Augmented plug-in, or two Standard Plug-ins, or four Minor Plug-ins, or a
>Standard and two Minor Plug-Ins. Minor Plug-ins include Shapeshift,
>Flight, Energy Blast, etc. Standard Plug-ins include Brick, Giant,
>Metal-man, Mentalist, Energy Projector, Martial Artist, etc. Augmented
>Plug-ins will be enhanced versions of the various Standard Plug-ins.
>Each Minor Plug-in entitles you to two Minor(15-pt) Disadvantage Packs or
>one Standard Disadvantage Pack, unless otherwise specified; an example of
>when it is otherwise specified is when Disadvantages have been added as
>part of the plug-in. Likewise, each Standard Plug-in will entitle you to
>one major disad pack, two standard disad packs, four minor disad
>packs, or a standard and two minor disad packs, unless otherwise noted.
>An Augmented Plug-in provides you with four disad slots; standard disad
>packs take one slot each, minor disad packs go two per slot, and major
>disad packs take up two slots each. each Plug-in gives a list of
>suggestions for appropriate packs.
>
>Backgrounds will include non-Everyman skills related to the character's
>vocation, as well as approariate Perks. Every Background entitles you to
>a minor disad pack, unless otherwise noted.
>
>Disad packs come in three sizes: minor (15 points each), standard (30
>points each), and major (60 points each). A player can opt to trade his
>fifteen points of disad customization points for a single minor disad
>pack, or for the right to upgrade a single minor disad pack to a standard
>disad pack.
>
>Comments?
Actually, this ain't half bad. Slightly different from the direction we orginially
approached the issues, but quite workable (and maybe even easier to agree upon).
-=>John Desmarais
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From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 98 23:08:18
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Meta-Plugins (Re: Templates porposal)
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On Sat, 7 Feb 1998 07:29:47 -0800 (PST), Brian Wong wrote:
> Which brings up another question.
>Package deals?
> Use em in the background plugins? Or avoid them?
I've generally avoided package deals in super-hero games.
-=>John Desmarais
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From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 98 23:09:58
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Templates - gadgeteer
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On Sat, 07 Feb 1998 07:37:41 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 09:29 AM 2/6/1998 -0800, John Desmarais wrote:
>>Any player comfortable enough with the rules to play a gadgeeer
>>doesn't need a system of templates and plug-ins to create his character.
>>
>>The classic gadgeteer is a game-machanically complicated character and
>>not one that I would ever suggest to some still learning the system.
>
> The "classic" gadgeteer (who always has something tricky up his sleeve)
>isn't the only type of gadgeteer around.
> A beginning gadgeteer could always have a handful of specific gadgets to
>begin with -- say, a ray gun (with three or four settings), some
>partial-coverage armor, and a jet-booster backpack. Maybe a couple of
>sensory gizmos or something.
Or is this guy just an Energy Projector who's special effect is gadget based?
> Then there's the gadgeteer who has just one item that does a lot of
>different things.
> Or the "mystic gadgeteer," with a bunch of different magical items.
> And I'm just getting warmed up. :-]
>---
>Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
>Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
>
>
>
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From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 98 23:17:05
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Template Bases
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On Sun, 08 Feb 1998 13:31:43 -0800, Rook wrote:
>So, I noticed when I got up today that there was no more new template
>stuff.
>Does that mean we reach agreement and should proceed to the next step?
> I gues what's next is we have to design the bases.
>From there we can decide what the plugins need to look like then let
>people go
>off on their own and make plugins.
>
> I posted a list of average stat values for all the 250 point
>characters in the BBB.
>Did everyone getit? Or should I repost it?
> Did the stats it came up with look about right?
>
>I never did figure out how many points each of those averages came up to
>though.
I added up several of them. They're high. I think a simple fix would be subtract 1 from
all of the SPD averages, but then the Hero published characters have always had
speeds that were on the high side relative to the campaigns I've played in and run. : )
> Obviously they'll be modified a bit to fit 100 points. with whatever
>doesn't fit
>being shoved into plugins. And something being come up with for whatever
>points are
>left over.
>
> Also, we're doing bases of
>
>Strong
>Athelete
>Mental
>Average
I'm pretty impressed with this idea.
>correct?
> So those averages are not exactly fit for this.
>Brick = Strong
>Mart Arts = Athelete
>
>But Mental and Average will have to be made by logical deduction of what
>fits given the
>averages.
>
>--
>Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
> __
>/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
>
>\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at:
>http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/
>
>
>
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 19:19:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Side Effects and Requires Skill Roll
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-9,11-17
From: dwtoomey@juno.com (David W Toomey)
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>The only important thing in that paragraph that is not stated in
>the book is that the disadvantage should last 5 minutes. I chose 5
>minutes
>because a 3D6 drain should recover in 4 turns; a 6d6 EB should recover
>within a minute or two. Since the old write up said the disadvantage
>should last as long as a similar power, I figured 5 minutes was a good
>approximation.
???
6 Body is healed in a minute or two? That would be the average damage
from
a 6d6 EB, as the character has *NO* defenses...
David W Toomey
dwtoomey@juno.com
_____________________________________________________________________
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Entangle BOECV (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!)
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 08 Feb 1998 19:48:39 -0500
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>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes:
q> BOECV is a pretty expensive Advantage, and you'd have to specify a
q> reasonable manner of escape (eg make Ego Roll at -1 per 1 Def/Bod)
But that does not address the fact that someone cannot use an EB or KA to
break his friend out of such an Entangle. BOECV is expensive, but I do not
agree that it is expensive enough to justify that change in game balance.
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover
\ head.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!
Mail-Copies-To: never
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>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
>> Um... Mind Control, single command, "look at me".
F> Not quite good enough. There is no reason why Mental Defense should
F> defend you against extraordinary beauty.
And there is likewise no reason that *my* looks will provide any defense
against someone else's beauty-based atack. So, then, if Mental Defense is
not appropriate for a power that affects one's mind, what is?
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Side Effects and Requires Skill Roll
Mail-Copies-To: never
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>>>>> "JM" == Joe Mucchiello <why@mars.superlink.net> writes:
JM> Requires Skill Roll (addendum)
JM> If the normal skill roll for this power is worse the 14-, use the
JM> Activation chart to determine the limitation.
Just a point: because it is a skill roll, complimentary rolls and taking
extra time for bonuses *do* apply to the roll. And do not forget skill
levels.
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Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 19:20:33 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Templates porposal
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I'm returning from a weekend hiatus to a mailbox with 500+ messages; as
such, my answers will probably be curt and possibly out of date. Please
bear with me...
On Fri, 6 Feb 1998, Richard G Schwerdtfeger wrote:
> Dataweaver (aka Jonathan) wrote:
> >OK; after much thought, I give you my official proposal:
>
> >Every character gets a single 100-point base, 120 points-worth of plug-ins, 15
> >points of background, and 15 points to customize. Furthermore, disadvantages
> >are provided by 135 points-worth of packs and 15 points to customize.
>
> I like these point breaks, especially with the plug-in sizes you
> propose.
Why, thank you! =)
> >Minor Plug-ins include Shapeshift, Flight, Energy Blast, etc. Standard
> >Plug-ins include Brick, Giant, Metal-man, Mentalist, Energy Projector, Martial
> >Artist, etc. Augmented Plug-ins will be enhanced versions of the various
> >Standard Plug-ins.
>
> We definitely need focus-based plug-ins, like Gun or Battlesuit. Punisher
> and Iron Man clones are sure to come up, and without plug-ins with inherent
> focus limits, they will be very hard to do.
Agreed; the focus, of course, would be part of the plug-in.
> Also, some of your standard plug-ins might need to be Meta-plug-ins (i.e.
> an Energy Projector plug-in with internal choices to be made, based on
> special effects). That way, you can make both Iceman and Firestar using
> the same plug-in, with different emphasis. Both characters have additional
> stats for an E.P., and an EB, but the Ice-based group would have Ice slides
> and entangles, while the fire-based would have an RKA.
If used in moderation, this could provide a useful stepping stone for
beginning players. I like the idea of the "Pick one of...", both for
Powers and for Power Modifiers - as long as the various choices have the
same cost. The whole idea of these templates, IMHO, is to eliminate the
need for point accounting during character creation...
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"
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Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 20:22:19 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Meta-Plugins (Re: Templates porposal)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Sat, 7 Feb 1998, Brian Wong wrote:
> > >Minor Plug-ins include Shapeshift, Flight, Energy Blast, etc. Standard
> > >Plug-ins include Brick, Giant, Metal-man, Mentalist, Energy Projector, Martial
> > >Artist, etc. Augmented Plug-ins will be enhanced versions of the various
> > >Standard Plug-ins.
> >
> > We definitely need focus-based plug-ins, like Gun or Battlesuit. Punisher
> > and Iron Man clones are sure to come up, and without plug-ins with inherent
> > focus limits, they will be very hard to do.
> >
> > Also, some of your standard plug-ins might need to be Meta-plug-ins (i.e.
> > an Energy Projector plug-in with internal choices to be made, based on
> > special effects). That way, you can make both Iceman and Firestar using
> > the same plug-in, with different emphasis. Both characters have additional
> > stats for an E.P., and an EB, but the Ice-based group would have Ice slides
> > and entangles, while the fire-based would have an RKA.
> >
>
> Yeah.
> Some plugins will have to be designed to work with a certain base. An optional
> generic version of them could also be made though.
>
> I think the standard and augmented plugins will tend to each have
> two versions, one that modifies the base to the plugins needs, one that
> doesn't so it can be used with any base.
Hmm... Instead of writing up two versions of each, write up a note within
the description of each along the lines of "this plug-in is especially
suited to the <whatever> base; when used in conjunction, make the
following additional modifications..."
> The 30 point plugin's would be no more than a few add ons to let one
> 'dabble' into a theme.
>
> And I like the idea of plugin's that say "choose one of the following".
>
> Which brings up another question.
> Package deals?
> Use em in the background plugins? Or avoid them?
Avoid; they generally aren't used in Champions (as opposed to Hero
System). However, I would recommend using them as guidelines when we
design the Backgrounds...
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"
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Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 20:29:54 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Entangle (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!)
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On Sat, 7 Feb 1998, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
> At 07:21 AM 2/7/98 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> >At 01:56 PM 2/6/1998 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote:
> >>On Thu, 5 Feb 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> >>> Listed examples can include using different Characteristics against
> >>> Entangle,
> >>Don't follow that.
> > Like Mental Paralysis, which uses EGO to break out (if you don't like
> >the dynamic of Mind Control to hold completely still). Or certain drugs
> >might act as paralysis which uses CON like STR to break out. A "paralysis
> >by fear" ray might use PRE to break out of.
>
> I'm not sure if "Advantaged" is a good or a bad idea. But, why not just
> include this mechanic in the Entangle description? In fact, why is basing
> Entangle on PRE an advantage? Seems no stronger that basing it on STR to
> me. I think I'm going to use that Paralyzed by fear in another character.
>
> Why not 10 AP/1D6 for STR, INT, PRE, 15 AP/1D6 for CON, BODY, EGO and
> 20 AP/1D6 for DEX?
> Or
> +1/2 for CON, BODY and EGO; +1 for DEX; -1/2 for COM.
I have trouble with the "Entangle resisted by COM" idea; how can being
more attractive make it easier to resist an attractive person?
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"
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X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 18:36:38 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
>>>No it isn't. Most 'invunerable' supers get damaged eventually, and hero
>>>is a game of NO absolutes. (and please don't do the 'that in itself is an
>>>absolute' line)
>>
>>well it is heh heh, but... thats why I use the ignores damage reduction
>>advantage for +1/2 in my game... caveat emptor
>
>Doesn't NND already qualify? You do specify a SFX for the DR, don't
>you?
No because NNDs are reduced by Damage Reduction too, a dirty little secret
of the game... DR 'targets' the power used, not the advantage...
>Why not just specify that Penetrating (ie the Penetrating part gets
>through) does this? It seems appropriate. Or Armour Piercing could drop
>DR by 25% each time.
Thats an interesting idea, although its cleaner to have a specific advantage
instead.
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Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 20:41:44 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Templates - compiled ideas
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On Sat, 7 Feb 1998, Filksinger wrote:
> On Friday, February 06, 1998 9:09 PM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>
> <snip>
> > This brings to mind one problem I've experienced with the word
> >"brick" to mean someone with super-strength: if you haven't played
> >Champions, then you probably have never heard that word used in that
> >context. The term is derived from the VIPER villain of the same name.
> >Almost everyone else would use the term "Strongman" or something
> >similar ("Strongarm" if you want to be gender neutral).
> > Hopefully this is something that the author of The Ultimate Brick
> >(yes, it still bears that title, the last I heard) will keep in mind.
>
>
> For the purpose of entering beginning characters into Champions, Brick
> is probably simple enough. First, anyone playing a new game expects to
> have to learn _something_. Secondly, I have just explained "brick" to
> my seven-year-old in about two sentences, and he understands it.
"Two words: Strong, Tough."
> It isn't a difficult concept. Just keep in mind that it is a Champions
> term, and use it in Champion's contexts, and remember that
> non-Champions players might need a definition, and I don't see a
> problem with continuing to use it.
I second the proposal. OTOH, I wouldn't neccessarily use it to describe a
base...
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"
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Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 20:44:50 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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On Sun, 8 Feb 1998 jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
> At 11:37 AM 2/6/98 -0800, you wrote:
> >> However, regular reduction should be expanded to the 100% level.
> >> Put a huge Stop Sign on it, but put it in the book. It's not that bad,
> >> really. The high cost makes it prohibitive. 120 point to be totally
> >> impervious to physical attacks.
> >
> > Yep. And very in genre.
> >
>
> No it isn't. Most 'invunerable' supers get damaged eventually, and hero
> is a game of NO absolutes. (and please don't do the 'that in itself is an
> absolute' line)
Why not? ;)
Seriously, there _are_ absolutes... Absolute Invisibility to normal sight,
for example.
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"
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Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 22:29:08 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
Reply-To: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Templates porposal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sat, 7 Feb 1998, Brian Wong wrote:
>Heh; should have read this email first. :)
My fault; I shoulf have sent it first... =)
>>OK; after much thought, I give you my official proposal:
>>
>>Use HSR exclusively; characters will be 100+150 built for the superhero
>>genre.
>>
>>Every character gets a single 100-point base, 120 points-worth of
>>plug-ins, 15 points of background, and 15 points to customize.
>>Furthermore, disadvantages are provided by 135 points-worth of packs and
>>15 points to customize.
>>
>>There are three bases: Brain, Brawn, and Athlete. Brain emphasizes INT,
>>EGO, and PRE; Brawn emphasizes STR, CON, and BODY; Athlete emphasizes DEX,
>>with a secondary focus on STR, CON, and BODY.
>>
> Add one in please:
>Balanced --- the olympian man. there an actual term for this... someone
> who becomes a balanced and well fleshed out in all of body, mind,
> and spirit. This base would try to balance out all the various stats
> and their usefulness.
I could go with that.
>>Power Plug-ins come in three sizes: Minor (30 points), Standard (60
>>points), and Augmented (120 points); a character can take a single
>>Augmented plug-in, or two Standard Plug-ins, or four Minor Plug-ins, or a
>>Standard and two Minor Plug-Ins. Minor Plug-ins include Shapeshift,
>>Flight, Energy Blast, etc. Standard Plug-ins include Brick, Giant,
>>Metal-man, Mentalist, Energy Projector, Martial Artist, etc. Augmented
>>Plug-ins will be enhanced versions of the various Standard Plug-ins.
>>Each Minor Plug-in entitles you to two Minor(15-pt) Disadvantage Packs or
>>one Standard Disadvantage Pack, unless otherwise specified; an example of
>>when it is otherwise specified is when Disadvantages have been added as
>>part of the plug-in. Likewise, each Standard Plug-in will entitle you to
>>one major disad pack, two standard disad packs, four minor disad
>>packs, or a standard and two minor disad packs, unless otherwise noted.
>>An Augmented Plug-in provides you with four disad slots; standard disad
>>packs take one slot each, minor disad packs go two per slot, and major
>>disad packs take up two slots each. each Plug-in gives a list of
>>suggestions for appropriate packs.
>
> I like that. Doing disads in slots is a good idea.
I was thinking of maybe expanding the "disad slots" concept a bit further;
if you wish, say that typical Standard Plug-Ins provide you with two disad
slots, Augmented Plug-Ins provide you with four, and Minor Plug-ins
provide you with one. Backgrounds still are typically limited to one
minor disad pack.
>>Backgrounds will include non-Everyman skills related to the character's
>>vocation, as well as approariate Perks. Every Background entitles you to
>>a minor disad pack, unless otherwise noted.
>
> good.
>
>>Disad packs come in three sizes: minor (15 points each), standard (30
>>points each), and major (60 points each). A player can opt to trade his
>>fifteen points of disad customization points for a single minor disad
>>pack, or for the right to upgrade a single minor disad pack to a standard
>>disad pack.
>
> Have we given more than 150 points of disads? Or less?
>135 points of disads by my count. Leaving 15 as "choose-me's". Could work
135 through disad packs, 15 undetermined; the above basically suggests
allowing the designer to use the disad customizer points for another disad
pack.
>Lets make sure we have a large list of premade disads and their point values.
> That's one of the hardest things to get done for a new player.
>Heck, it's one of the hardest even for an experienced player.
Agreed.
> I think we're real close here on being able to move to stage 2 of this
>project. :)
I hope so...
On Sat, 7 Feb 1998, Brian Wong wrote:
>>> I suppose it could go to either 100 with plugins being
>>>60 / 120 pointers.
>>
>>Workable...
>>
>>and Transfer. Otherwise, they're workable. Personally, I'd go
>>with 30 / 60 / 90 / 120 pointers.
>
> So we're set then on that idea? It seems workable from my side
>of the table as well. 30 pointers? so have 3 levels of exploration into
>a given theme?
-snip-
> Each level of the plug is the same concept, only looked into
>in more detail. To use the example I've been using so far, the heavy
>body of X (steel in this case, I add the word heavy to distinguish this
>from human torch types who are energy projector bases).
Actually, there seem to be two basic types of 'Body of X' - Ice, Stone,
Steel, etc., and Water, Sand, Wind, Rubber, etc...
> 30 pt plug in gives you a few levels of density increase and
>damage resistance.
> 60 pt level does more, and maybe even adds some stun.
> 120 pt level goes all out. The generic version adds stats here
>and there, and a full list of powers, like a shockwave (area effect
>legsweep?), lots of density increase, super leap in standard brick
>fashion, etc...
>The non generic version might cut down the brick's base strength in
>favor of the denisity increase, go into damage reduction, or
>whatever.
Note that base+120 pt Augmented plug needs to be effectively a completed
character, power-wise; there's still the selection of the background,
disads, and customizer points, but that's it.
>>Perhaps a Brick _should_ be treated as a plug-in, as well as a
>>base. A Brick base without a Brick Plug-in would be like a normal
>>weight-lifter - big and strong, in comparison to most people, but
>>outclassed by a legitimate Brick. OTOH, this would let you build a
>>Brick like Dr. Pym - use a different base ("scientist"), and add a
>>Brick-style plug-in (in this case, Growth).
>
> This is just another way of saying what I've been saying about
>having two versions of each plugin, a generic and a base specific. so a
>base specific Dr. Pym plugin would cut the brick str down first, but not
>fully. The generic one would just add the powers on and try to avoid
>stat tampering of any kind.
Actually, Dr. Pym would be a Thinker base with a "Size Booster" plug.
>>I could see the system being based off of three "archtypes", based
>>exclusively off of standard attributes:
>
>>Brick - the focus of this archtype is on raw physical power - STR,
>>CON, and BODY.
>>Athlete - similar to the Brick, the Athlete focuses on honing her
>> body - but she does so by emphasizing DEX and SPD over STR, CON and
>> BODY.
>>Thinker - These guys are the mentalists, the mages, the
>> gadgeteers, and the con-men. Emphasis goes to INT and EGO, with
>> INT getting the focus.
>
> That sounds about right. It also helps us avoid the old Hero
>classifications which always felt pushed a bit to me.
> But I would add one more:
>Balanced - focus is on equally balancing out all angles of the
> stats. This is the olympian man. An almost 'generic' base.
Yeah, I had been debating that one, myself...
>>Follow this up with a number of plug-ins, probably two "power
>>plug-ins" and a background plug-in ("role"?), a number of customizer
>>points, one or two Disad plug-ins, and a number of Disad customizer
>>points. Amongst the Power plug-ins, you'd want "Strong Guy", which,
>>when combined with the Brick Archtype gives you your stereotypical
>>brick; "Metal Guy", which is, for the most part, Density Increase
>>(SFX: transforms into a being of metal); "Giant Guy", with several
>>levels of Growth; "Mentalist", which includes a selection of Mental
>>Powers and an additional boost to EGO (combined with the Thinker
>>archtype, this would give you a stereotypical
>>mentalist); "Martial Artist"; ...
>
> That sounds good.
Hmm... the "Mentalist + Thinker" combination would be a good example of a
template that probably _should_ operate differently for one of the bases;
for thinkers, it boosts EGO even more than normal, but reduces INT down to
a level which is more common in mentalists...
>>I'd classify the plug-ins into three groups: Minor (say, around 30
>>points), Standard (60), and Augmented (120) - a character could
>>take one Augmented plug-in, two Standard plug-ins, four Minor
>>Plug-ins, or a Standard and two Minor Plug-ins. Minor plug-ins tend
>>to be single-power items such as Energy Blast or Shapeshift, while
>>Standard and Augmented plug-ins tend to be packages of related powers,
>>and - almost by definition - will usually qualify for EC.
>
> Ah, I should have read farther before stating this above. :)
?
>>>>>Next would come a system for selecting disads by grouping
>>>>>disads into themes
>>>>
>>>>This idea I like, although it may end up being easier for the
>>>>player if the disad packages are a bit more formalized (ie. here's
>>>>the disad package for the Super Patriot - no picking and choosing.
>>>>Just a thought).
>>>
>> That's a good idea.
>>> Perhaps both methods. Ie, pick from the list of mini-packs until
>>> you have 150 points of disads, or take a theme pack. But I definatly
>>> think your idea is good. It will get them in play much faster.
>>
>>Note that, in many cases, you may want to integrate a Disad Pack
>>into a Plug-In - Torch can generate fire, but this makes him
>>inherently Vulnerable to Ice... Meanwhile, DNPCs, Distinctive
>>Features, Hunted/Watched, etc. would almost certainly be associated
>>with a Background Plug-in. I'd hanlde this by listing which Disad
>>Packs are appropriate to each Pulg-in.
>
> I would say list next to each plugin suggested disad packs,
>but not integrated in. So you could take them, or you could not.
>
> It looks like we've almost hit consensus here.
I won't object... ;)
But seriously, are there any objections out there? I haven't heard any...
> Once we get past here, I guess we need to start on what can go
>into each level of plugin.
> Also are we going to do my idea of generic and base specific
>plugins? Or try to make them all generic? Or try to make them all base
>specific?
I'd suggest integrating base-specific notes into plugs that need them, and
otherwise try for generic plugs.
> And then we need to iron out stats. I emailed out the averages
>of all stats in the BBB yesterday. Anybody get that? We need to disect
>that and decide if it works.
Got it; I'll look it over some more...
> We need to determine what the stats will be for the typical
>'finished' template (ie, base + plugins, finished character). And once
>we do that, which of those go into the base, and which into the plugin.
I'd say that, for the most part, plug-ins shouldn't alter characteristics.
Two exceptions to this would be the Brick plug - which would boost STR,
CON, and BODY from the Brawn base to the typical Brick norm - and the
Mentalist plug - which would effectively shift the focus of a Thinker
from INT to EGO. Furthermore, certain backgrounds - politician, con-man,
model, etc. might add to PRE and/or COM...
>Anything else before we get started?
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
X-Sender: why@mail.superlink.net
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 23:47:47 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Limited By Time (A limitation for discussion)
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At 07:41 PM 2/8/98, \"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> wrote:
>On Sun, 08 Feb 1998 15:11:05 -0500, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>>LIMITED BY TIME <Looking glass>
>[snip]
>Isn't this a Continuing Charge?
No, charges limit the number of times per day you can use the power.
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
X-Sender: why@mail.superlink.net
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 23:56:48 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Side Effects and Requires Skill Roll
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At 07:19 PM 2/8/98 -0500, David W Toomey wrote:
>6 Body is healed in a minute or two? That would be the average damage
>from
>a 6d6 EB, as the character has *NO* defenses...
Well, normally no. But in most games, except realistic modern or earlier,
most player groups have a healer who will heal the 6 BODY within a minute
of the combat. It's a good enough approximation. If I had used one month,
there would be no reason to take a 15 point disad which occurs when you use
a power for a -1/4 when you can just take the 15 point disad.
Joe
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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 21:03:28 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Entagle Resisted by COM
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 08:29 PM 2/8/98 -0600, Dataweaver wrote:
>I have trouble with the "Entangle resisted by COM" idea; how can
being
>more attractive make it easier to resist an attractive person?
That's easy, actually.
Joe Nerdboy, COM 8, is caught by the gaze of The Seductress, COM 30,
who bought Entangle Resisted by COM. Since with a COM 8 Joe doesn't
get to spend a lot of time with supermodels (ever see a supermodel
date ugly or normal looking guys?), he is rapt.
The Seductress then turns her gaze to Captain Hero, COM 25. Since
Captain Hero has to beat admirers off with a stick, he is far less
affected by the beautiful villainess.
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X-Sender: why@mail.superlink.net
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 00:08:47 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Entangle (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 08:29 PM 2/8/98 -0600, Dataweaver wrote:
>On Sat, 7 Feb 1998, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>> I'm not sure if "Advantaged" is a good or a bad idea. But, why not just
>> include this mechanic in the Entangle description? In fact, why is basing
>> Entangle on PRE an advantage? Seems no stronger that basing it on STR to
>> me. I think I'm going to use that Paralyzed by fear in another character.
>>
>> Why not 10 AP/1D6 for STR, INT, PRE, 15 AP/1D6 for CON, BODY, EGO and
>> 20 AP/1D6 for DEX?
>> Or
>> +1/2 for CON, BODY and EGO; +1 for DEX; -1/2 for COM.
>
>I have trouble with the "Entangle resisted by COM" idea; how can being
>more attractive make it easier to resist an attractive person?
I could see it working in a vacuous Valley Girl Hero campaign.
"Wow, bodacious!"
"Yeah, whatever, Dude."
Anyone want to write that Hero Plus supplement? :-)
Joe
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 23:57:24 -0600
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net
Organization: Red Bow Antiques
Subject: Re: Red October Shutdown
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ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net wrote:
>
> This is truly the end of an era, Bob. Red October was the very first
> BBS I connected to (with a 2400 BAUD modem yet! From Corsicana to
> Austin, even! I had some HUGE telephone bills in them days!). Red
> October's participants even helped me to decide to chuck my old
> Commodore 64 and buy my first 286.
>
> Thanks for helping Hero to survive all those lean bad years; your
> site was truly a beacon in the dark. Hero fans today owe you a
> profound debt of thanks for your time, $$$, and effort you have spent
> on behalf of our hobby.
>
> Guy
I want to second this. Red October was also my first BBS with a 2400
baud modem. I understand the reasons of it shutting down, what with the
internet and all, but I still will morn its passing. I am going to write
a note to Hero games that maybe something should be said in the 5th
edition about the closing of this long time standard and the man who
carried it on his back.
From a true fan
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 23:08:35 -0800
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On Sunday, February 08, 1998 5:44 PM, Christopher Taylor wrote:
<snip>
>>Doesn't NND already qualify? You do specify a SFX for the DR, don't
>>you?
>
>No because NNDs are reduced by Damage Reduction too, a dirty little
secret
>of the game... DR 'targets' the power used, not the advantage...
>
I disagree. A knockout gas NND is neither a physical or an energy
attack. Neither is "suck all the air out of your lungs" or injected
drugs.
Damage Reduction doesn't target the power used, it targets the attack
_based upon the defense to which it applies_. An EB defined as "a
large thrown steel ball" is physical, even though it is an EB. Being
an EB doesn't make it energy. Likewise, being an NND based upon EB
doesn't make it energy, either.
Filksinger
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 08:40:31 +0000
From: Stephen McGinness <smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk>
Organization: Camborne School of Mines
Subject: Re: Template Bases
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Rook wrote:
>
> So, I noticed when I got up today that there was no more new template
> stuff.
> Does that mean we reach agreement and should proceed to the next step?
> I guess what's next is we have to design the bases.
> From there we can decide what the plugins need to look like then let
> people go off on their own and make plugins.
>
> I posted a list of average stat values for all the 250 point
> characters in the BBB.
> Did everyone getit? Or should I repost it?
> Did the stats it came up with look about right?
>
> I never did figure out how many points each of those averages came up to
> though.
>
> Obviously they'll be modified a bit to fit 100 points. with whatever
> doesn't fit being shoved into plugins. And something being come up with for > whatever points are left over.
I just have one point to make. I have come to
regard you as one of the high priests of
"steer-clear-of-mechanics-on-the-list-if-you-can"
but on this issue you still seem a bit hung up on
points!! :-) :-)
I would like to suggest that we don't worry _too_
much about point totals for the templates etc.
Obviously we want to make use of teh system to
ensure that the templates come out to be fairly
even in usefulness, but we don't really need to be
worrying about saying that you should have 30point
plug-ins and 50 point plug-ins and that the
templates should be 100 points or 120 points etc.
I guess for a newbie, I'd like to see that I would
choose the templates proposed
> Strong
> Athelete
> Mental
> Average
That gives me an basic idea of what my hero is
like, I don't really care if Strong costs more
points than Mental because I don't know the
system.
I then want a few major powers and a few plug-ins
to make him the hero that I saw in my head. If the
actual points cost comes to 250 or 300 points is
quite irrelevant to me. Coming from AD&D I will
understand that I can have a limited number of
choices, coming from other systems it will be easy
just to pick things from a list, it's only for the
GM to worry about points. If we ensure that
playability is about the same then actual point
cost will not be an issue.
I'm also keen to see the Meta Plug-ins. If my hero
is a Johnny Storm type who turns into living flame
what effects does that have. For the new player he
will have all kinds of things in his head. The
Meta Plug-in should be Flame Powers. What
advantages and disadvantages do people normally
give to Flame Powers?? The whole plug-in should
include the EB, defences and movement associated
with the special effect so that no-one feels the
need to go buy an energy balst plug-in that will
not have the advantages and limitations of the
Flame stuff costed in....I haven't seen any
discussion of typical advantages and limitations
for power effects. Is that a job for now or
later??
> --
> Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Stephen
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Reply-To: "Lisa Hartjes" <beren@unforgettable.com>
From: "Lisa Hartjes" <beren@unforgettable.com>
Subject: Using TUSM
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 08:44:12 -0500
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I tried sending this message before, but it didn't get to the list.
I was wondering how people used the information in the Ultimate Super Mage
in game worlds other than the Champions Universe. Did you use the
dimensional info as is, or did you change it?
I was rather pleased with what I read in TUSM, but a little daunted on how
to start including the info in my game world.
Lisa
Lisa Hartjes
beren@unforgettable.com
Home: http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/daniken/79
"You met these things before. What did you do?"
<said with a grin>"I died."
(Alien Resurrection)
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Subject: Re: Constant Pwr+Multipower q
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 98 08:58:22 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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>>Can a character with Darkness keep more than one Darkness field going at
>>the same time, so long as they pay all applicable END costs?
I would say yes, but that the combined total sizes of the fields could
not be larger than the total size field that they could create.
In other words:
Dark can create a 4" field of darkness. He could also make 2, 2" fields
etc. (while this is probably not accurate because 2, 2" circles have less
area thatn 1, 4" one, it would seem an appropriate penalty to pay, for
the increased utility of splitting up the power)
David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Template Bases
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 06:26:28 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> > I posted a list of average stat values for all the 250 point
> >characters in the BBB.
> >Did everyone getit? Or should I repost it?
> > Did the stats it came up with look about right?
> >
> >I never did figure out how many points each of those averages came up to
> >though.
>
> I added up several of them. They're high. I think a simple fix would be
> subtract 1 from
> all of the SPD averages, but then the Hero published characters have always
> had speeds that were on the high side relative to the campaigns I've played
> in and run. : )
Well, In my own games those BBB guys where always too slow. My games
average in at 6-7 speed.
I think it's important to stick to the averages on this on major stats
like speed. Otherwise I' have been in here argueing the opposite point from
you. Desiring a higher than the average speed. :)
Sticking as close as possible to the averages helps make them more
accepted to the general populace.
> >
> >Strong
> >Athelete
> >Mental
> >Average
>
> I'm pretty impressed with this idea.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Template Bases
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 06:52:38 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> > I guess what's next is we have to design the bases.
> > From there we can decide what the plugins need to look like then let
> > people go off on their own and make plugins.
> >
> > I posted a list of average stat values for all the 250 point
> > characters in the BBB.
> >
> > I never did figure out how many points each of those averages came up to
> > though.
> >
> > Obviously they'll be modified a bit to fit 100 points. with whatever
> > doesn't fit being shoved into plugins. And something being come up with for > whatever points are left over.
>
> I just have one point to make. I have come to
> regard you as one of the high priests of
> "steer-clear-of-mechanics-on-the-list-if-you-can"
> but on this issue you still seem a bit hung up on
> points!! :-) :-)
>
Only reason behind that is to make sure it's acceptable to
most beginning GM's. Mosy GM's I've encountered seem to view my throwing
out of point limits as heresy. And beginning GM's in particular don't
understand enough to realize how broken the point balance system is. It's
their one light in the dark. (though I must admit the first game I ever ran
had no point limit).
I want to give them some kind of standard to stick to that I think will
be acceptable to most GM's. That why I'm being a stickler on something I throw
out in my own games.
> > Strong
> > Athelete
> > Mental
> > Average
>
> That gives me an basic idea of what my hero is
> like, I don't really care if Strong costs more
> points than Mental because I don't know the
> system.
>
> I then want a few major powers and a few plug-ins
> to make him the hero that I saw in my head. If the
> actual points cost comes to 250 or 300 points is
> quite irrelevant to me. Coming from AD&D I will
> understand that I can have a limited number of
> choices, coming from other systems it will be easy
> just to pick things from a list, it's only for the
> GM to worry about points. If we ensure that
> playability is about the same then actual point
> cost will not be an issue.
>
This is true from a players point of view.
But not from a GM's point point of view. Most GM's get
very hung up on point balance. Therefore anything attempting
to make itself a standard has to take that into account.
Don't expect my home version of this template system to
match the one worked up here on this issue however. :)
> I'm also keen to see the Meta Plug-ins. If my hero
> is a Johnny Storm type who turns into living flame
> what effects does that have. For the new player he
> will have all kinds of things in his head. The
> Meta Plug-in should be Flame Powers. What
This is close to how I already see the plugins.
You would pick one of the plugins from the 'Flame Powers'
plugins list. These would consist of 5 plugins.
1 30 pointer. 2 60 pointers (one generic, on specific to
the 'average' base.). and 2 120 pointers.
It would then have a list of disad packs
which best fit the theme.
Perhaps this plugin list would be even more generic
in name. Perhaps it would be 'Energy Body' and 'Energy
Projection'. And then a seperate section discussing using these
plugins with things like fire, plasma, water, electricity, etc.
This section would be the one suggesting which plugins and
which disad packs best combine to make a 'Fire Person'.
> Flame stuff costed in....I haven't seen any
> discussion of typical advantages and limitations
> for power effects. Is that a job for now or
> later??
Probably when we get to actual plugin design.
Though I would call for as simple as possible on this.
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Templates porposal
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 07:16:45 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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>
> Hmm... the "Mentalist + Thinker" combination would be a good example of a
> template that probably _should_ operate differently for one of the bases;
> for thinkers, it boosts EGO even more than normal, but reduces INT down to
> a level which is more common in mentalists...
>
> > Once we get past here, I guess we need to start on what can go
> >into each level of plugin.
> > Also are we going to do my idea of generic and base specific
> >plugins? Or try to make them all generic? Or try to make them all base
> >specific?
>
> I'd suggest integrating base-specific notes into plugs that need them, and
> otherwise try for generic plugs.
>
A good idea I hadn't considered. Perhaps each plugin could if needed
say how to use it with each base. SOmething like this:
Plugin X
If used with the Thinker Base do this to the base first:
List of stuff
And This to the plugin:
List of stuff.
If used with other bases, use as follows:
List of stuff
> > We need to determine what the stats will be for the typical
> >'finished' template (ie, base + plugins, finished character). And once
> >we do that, which of those go into the base, and which into the plugin.
>
> I'd say that, for the most part, plug-ins shouldn't alter characteristics.
> Two exceptions to this would be the Brick plug - which would boost STR,
> CON, and BODY from the Brawn base to the typical Brick norm - and the
> Mentalist plug - which would effectively shift the focus of a Thinker
> from INT to EGO. Furthermore, certain backgrounds - politician, con-man,
> model, etc. might add to PRE and/or COM...
>
Yeah. Though some of them will end up modifying stats, it shouldn't
be the norm.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 07:26:59 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Template Bases
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---Stephen McGinness wrote:
>
> Rook wrote:
> >
> > So, I noticed when I got up today that there was no more new
template
> > stuff.
> > Does that mean we reach agreement and should proceed to the next
step?
> > I guess what's next is we have to design the bases.
> > From there we can decide what the plugins need to look like then let
> > people go off on their own and make plugins.
> >
> > I posted a list of average stat values for all the 250 point
> > characters in the BBB.
> > Did everyone getit? Or should I repost it?
> > Did the stats it came up with look about right?
> >
> > I never did figure out how many points each of those averages came
up to
> > though.
> >
> > Obviously they'll be modified a bit to fit 100 points. with
whatever
> > doesn't fit being shoved into plugins. And something being come up
with for > whatever points are left over.
>
> I just have one point to make. I have come to
> regard you as one of the high priests of
> "steer-clear-of-mechanics-on-the-list-if-you-can"
> but on this issue you still seem a bit hung up on
> points!! :-) :-)
>
> I would like to suggest that we don't worry _too_
> much about point totals for the templates etc.
> Obviously we want to make use of teh system to
> ensure that the templates come out to be fairly
> even in usefulness, but we don't really need to be
> worrying about saying that you should have 30point
> plug-ins and 50 point plug-ins and that the
> templates should be 100 points or 120 points etc.
>
> I guess for a newbie, I'd like to see that I would
> choose the templates proposed
>
> > Strong
> > Athelete
> > Mental
> > Average
>
> That gives me an basic idea of what my hero is
> like, I don't really care if Strong costs more
> points than Mental because I don't know the
> system.
>
> I then want a few major powers and a few plug-ins
> to make him the hero that I saw in my head. If the
> actual points cost comes to 250 or 300 points is
> quite irrelevant to me. Coming from AD&D I will
> understand that I can have a limited number of
> choices, coming from other systems it will be easy
> just to pick things from a list, it's only for the
> GM to worry about points. If we ensure that
> playability is about the same then actual point
> cost will not be an issue.
Except that the point cost is the only vaguely consistant yardstick we
have for determining game balance, something new players (and new GMs)
haven't learned how to judge for themselves
-=>John Desmarais
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 15:59:47 +0000
From: Stephen McGinness <smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk>
Organization: Camborne School of Mines
Subject: Re: Template Bases
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John Desmarais wrote:
> Except that the point cost is the only vaguely consistant yardstick we
> have for determining game balance, something new players (and new GMs)
> haven't learned how to judge for themselves
Rook was right, I had forgotten that there will be
new GM's using these templates as well as new
players and it is the groups where everyone is new
to the system that will get most use out of these
templates. A group with an experienced GM will
already have the facility to design the character
without having to worry about the points etc.
The point I had been making however was teh way we
are calling them 30pt plug-ins, and 60 point
plug-ins. For the sake of the templates we should
call them Minor and Major powers or something.
Sure, whilst we are designing them we should have
the points in mind, but they shouldn't be
up-front. I'm _still_ of that opinion. :-)
> -=>John Desmarais
Stephen
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Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 08:16:28 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: In support of 'Advantaged'
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At 11:46 AM 2/8/1998 -0500, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>BTW, I also prefer Enhanced Power to Advantaged. I don't remember who
>suggested that.
'Twas I. :-]
>Now, may I open a can of worms? The point of adding Advantaged to the Hero
>system is to satisfy the people who say that the Hero rules are not
>complete since you cannot model things that require a new advantage in
>rules. Right? So, in order to complete the meta rules, how about a power
>enhancer called Additional Base points? This is how Teleport can double
>the allowable mass for +5 points; how Aid can increase the maximum
>adjustment by 2 for each +1 base cost; etc. Granted, it's not a power
>advantage or limitation. It's just extra base points. I'm sure someone,
>somewhere has always want to do something like this.
Well, we could separate off certain elements like Extra Mass (x2 mass
for Teleport and similar Powers for +5 points), Multiple Instances (x2
instances of the same Power [on a Base or Vehicle] or "secondary entities"
[such as Duplicates, Followers, or Summonees] for +5 points), Non-Combat
Multiples (x2 NCM for +5 points), and the like as a sort-of separate Power.
I don't personally think that would work on a wide basis, but it's still a
thought to consider.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
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Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 08:18:16 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!
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At 07:50 PM 2/8/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
>
>>> Um... Mind Control, single command, "look at me".
>
>F> Not quite good enough. There is no reason why Mental Defense should
>F> defend you against extraordinary beauty.
>
>And there is likewise no reason that *my* looks will provide any defense
>against someone else's beauty-based atack. So, then, if Mental Defense is
>not appropriate for a power that affects one's mind, what is?
Using that logic in its pure form, one should get Mental Defense against
Presence Attacks. While there's some room to consider that for Hero5, it's
not the case in Hero4.
Personally, for this kind of stare-and-drool, I'd use a COM attack
similar to a PRE attack, with Resistance as the defense.
---
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Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 08:26:44 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Limited Power, 5th Ed. (long)
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At 03:08 PM 2/8/1998 -0500, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>Force Field
> Non-resistant: -1
Comparing PD vs PD + Damage Resistance, I think this should be -1/2.
>Multiform
> All Forms Share END, STUN and BODY: -1/2
Personally, I'm of a mind that this should be the default. (Isn't it
already?)
>Shrinking
> Cannot use Growth Momentum: -1/4 (Growth Momentum should be described
> under Size Powers, in the general power rules.)
Dave Mattingly's "Weak Shrinking" (Shrinking with proportional STR) is a
good Limitation too.
>Mandatory Mental Effect
> This mental power do not work unless a certain level of effect is
>achieved as described in the power's description. For each 10 points
>required the power gains a -1/4 limitation. Example: Mind Guy wants a
>Mind Control in which the affected person never remembers what happened
>during the control. That Mind Control would take Manadatory Mental Effect
>at -1/4.
I do this one a little differently, and I think it's a mechanic worth
considering for 5th Edition.
If a character always has a certain effect with a Mental Power, he pays
a number of points equal to the amount of effect needed. Thus, Mind Guy in
your example would pay 10 points to always have his targets forget what
happened during the control.
This is approximately the same as buying 3d6 of extra Mind Control, with
a -1/2 Limitation that it can only be applied to this purpose; in other
words, not too far off the end result you're after.
---
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Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 08:41:22 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Red October Shutdown
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At 11:57 PM 2/8/1998 -0600, bobby farris wrote:
>ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net wrote:
>>
>> This is truly the end of an era, Bob. Red October was the very first
>> BBS I connected to (with a 2400 BAUD modem yet! From Corsicana to
>> Austin, even! I had some HUGE telephone bills in them days!). Red
>> October's participants even helped me to decide to chuck my old
>> Commodore 64 and buy my first 286.
>>
>> Thanks for helping Hero to survive all those lean bad years; your
>> site was truly a beacon in the dark. Hero fans today owe you a
>> profound debt of thanks for your time, $$$, and effort you have spent
>> on behalf of our hobby.
>>
> I want to second this. Red October was also my first BBS with a 2400
>baud modem. I understand the reasons of it shutting down, what with the
>internet and all, but I still will morn its passing. I am going to write
>a note to Hero games that maybe something should be said in the 5th
>edition about the closing of this long time standard and the man who
>carried it on his back.
Though I only dialed it up a few times, I have found the archive to be a
very useful place. The Star Hero material alone was a great boon to TUSV
(though it remains to be seen how much of that stuff will actually reach
the final work); I've grabbed a few additional things too.
One of the "back-burner" projects on my list of Stuff I'd Like To Do is
The Ultimate Cyborg. Since this will include an expansion of the computer
rules, it seems appropriate to me that, if I do get to do that tome, it be
dedicated to Bob Quinlan and Red October BBS.
In the meantime, I'll be spending a fair amount of my Internet time
grabbing as many of the online characters as I can. They'll make a great
basis (or at least a good "fleshing out" source) for an "alternate world"
I'm trying to build for my campaign.
---
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Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 08:47:50 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Side Effects and Requires Skill Roll
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At 12:25 PM 2/8/1998 -0500, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>>>When the side effect always occurs, the limitation is worth -1/4 for each
>>>FULL 10 active points in the side effect power. Otherwise the
limitation is
>>>worth -1/4 for each FULL 15 active points in the side effect power. If the
>>>side effect occurs when either a skill roll or an attack fails or if there
>>>are two skill rolls which both must suceed, the power gains an additional
>>>-1/4 limitation.
>>
>> I like this in principle, but for simplicity I think I'd stick to
>>something close to tradition: -1/4 per 15 Active Points, halved if the Side
>>Effect occurs only on a failed Roll (whether Skill, Activation, or Attack).
>
>I don't like halved. It makes the limitation much different from the
>current book description: 30 is -1/2 and 60 is -1. That's why I gave the
>"limitation advantage ;-)" to unconditional side effects.
Well, then, how about doubled, or an extra -1/2 Limitation, if it always
takes effect? Or -1/4 less of a Limitation if it doesn't?
>>>A Side Effect can also be a Disadvantage which effects the character when
>>>a power is activated. Treat the cost of the Disadvantage as the active
>>>points of the side effect power. Disadvantages gained by side effect last
>>>for five minutes. This time can be raised up the time chart by adding five
>>>points to the active cost of the side effect power. For example, when
>>>Firelight uses his supernova power he becomes vulnerable to cold, heat and
>>>light powers for an hour after. A x1 1/2 STUN vulnerability versus a
>>>several common attack power is a 15 point disadvantage. Making it last
>>>an hour raises the cost to 20 points. Since the effect happens every time
>>>he uses the power, the limitation is -1/2.
>>
>> Not a bad rule. It may need some tweaking (like maybe simply giving an
>>additional -1/4 Limitation for each step on the time chart), but it's a
>start.
>
>That might make more sense. I think I was still thinking in terms of -1/2
>must be half the active points how do you get an advantage to reach 30
>points. The only important thing in that paragraph that is not stated in
>the book is that the disadvantage should last 5 minutes. I chose 5 minutes
>because a 3D6 drain should recover in 4 turns; a 6d6 EB should recover
>within a minute or two. Since the old write up said the disadvantage
>should last as long as a similar power, I figured 5 minutes was a good
>approximation.
Well, maybe the minimum size needs to be tweaked as well.
Whatever is decided upon by the folks discussing this aspect would
probably work fine, though.
---
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Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 08:51:55 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Limited By Time (A limitation for discussion)
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At 03:11 PM 2/8/1998 -0500, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>Uncontrolled powers can cause effects that last an indeterminate amount of
>time. I think Uncontrolled should have better guidelines on how to
>determine time limits.
>
>LIMITED BY TIME <Looking glass>
>This limitation can only be taken on Uncontrolled powers, or powers which
>bring uncontrolled effects into play, like Entangle or Mental Powers. An
>uncontrolled power with this limitation will turn itself off after a
>certain amount of time for a -1/4 limitation. For each level down the time
>chart this limitation can be increased by -1/4. The base time is normally
>5 Minutes. But certain power have different bases:
> Mental Powers 1 Hour
> Transform 1 Day
>
><Stop Sign>Optionally, this limitation can be taken on an non-Uncontrolled
>attack or adjustment power whose damage effect goes away quickly. The base
>time for such a power would be 1 Turn at -1/4. Example: Neuron's Neural
>Disruptor power could be bought as a 8D6 EB, Limited By Time, 1 Segment
>(-3/4). If Neuron attacks and hits on Phase 3, the damage is rolled
>normally, but on Phase 4 all of the STUN and BODY caused would heal back.
>If the target was STUNNED for CON he would still lose his next action.
>
>---
>
>I thought about making the base time just 5 minutes, but that did not seem
>fair to Mental Powers or Transform. Effectively, any Entangle which only
>last 1 phase should be worth about -1, right?
Interesting idea, if nothing else.
---
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Template Bases
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 09:23:51 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> John Desmarais wrote:
> > Except that the point cost is the only vaguely consistant yardstick we
> > have for determining game balance, something new players (and new GMs)
> > haven't learned how to judge for themselves
>
> Rook was right, I had forgotten that there will be
> new GM's using these templates as well as new
> players and it is the groups where everyone is new
> to the system that will get most use out of these
> templates. A group with an experienced GM will
> already have the facility to design the character
> without having to worry about the points etc.
Yeah. I intend to use these templates for
quicky NPC's myself. But they undergo minor mods to
fit my game's power levels first.
> The point I had been making however was teh way we
> are calling them 30pt plug-ins, and 60 point
> plug-ins. For the sake of the templates we should
> call them Minor and Major powers or something.
> Sure, whilst we are designing them we should have
> the points in mind, but they shouldn't be
> up-front. I'm _still_ of that opinion. :-)
I think I and everyone else involved would agree
with that.
Minor: 30
Medium: 60
Complete: 120
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Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 09:33:24 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Constant Pwr+Multipower q
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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Darien Phoenix Lynx writes:
> If one of my players puts a constant power, like Darkness, into a
> multipower, does she have to keep the points allocated to Darkness in
> order to keep the effect up? Or can she reallocate points on her next
> phase and keep the Darkness up so long as she keeps paying END?
No, she can't reallocate points, the constant power goes away. You can bypass
this restriction by buying the darkness field 'uncontrolled' -- then it no
longer has any connection to the character after it has been activated. On the
minus side, there is no connection, so all END costs have to be paid when the
power is activated ;)
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Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 09:38:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
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qts writes:
> That too sounds reasonable, but let's go back a stage: do you have a
> problem with Deflection per se - are you happy about putting Advantages
> like AOE on it?
I have a specific problem with AOE on deflection, because deflection is based
on a contest of CV, and CV isn't terribly meaningful for an AOE -- a bomb which
someone placed in a building probably has OCV 0. To 'deflect' area effects,
use force wall.
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From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 98 17:44:37
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Template Bases
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On Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:19:58 -0800 (PST), Brian Wong wrote:
> I was discussing this project with a friend today when I came upon the
>idea that we may need 90 point plugins.
>
> Imagine a plugin that has a full EC or Mulipower, but doesn't take up
>all of ones points.
>
> 30 and 60 are too small, 120 is too much.
So, "minor", "standard", "major", and "augmented"??
>Also I've been adding up the points of the stats for the average BBB
>character and so far it's coming out to 140-150 on average.
I just did a quick glance through the BBB and it looks like most of the characters who
rely mostly on "powers" as opposed to "stats" fall under 125 points for stats. With the
"stat intensive" concepts getting a characteristic boost from plug-ins, 120 points should
work ok for everyone.
> We may want to raise the bases...
> I've done it for Brawn and Speed. (Brick and Martial).
> I don't have enough examples in the BBB for Brain, so that one
>will have to be drawn from suppliments.
> Balanced I'm basing off of Energy Projector characters in the BBB
>and haven't yet added up the points to.
>
>
>Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
> __
>/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
>\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/
>
-=>John Desmarais
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Entagle Resisted by COM
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Date: 09 Feb 1998 13:44:56 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "L" == Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> writes:
L> Joe Nerdboy, COM 8, is caught by the gaze of The Seductress, COM 30,
L> who bought Entangle Resisted by COM. Since with a COM 8 Joe doesn't
L> get to spend a lot of time with supermodels (ever see a supermodel
L> date ugly or normal looking guys?), he is rapt.
Sorry, Charlie, that is Presence, and Joe's lack thereof.
Ever see Billy Joel *not* in a stupor while with the aforementioned
supermodel date? Presence.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
\ Earth, presumably from outer space.
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Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 13:00:07 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Hero Product Idea
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On Mon, 9 Feb 1998, David Fair wrote:
> On 2/9/98 2:11 PM Bob Greenwade (bob.greenwade@klock.com) Said:
>
> > 1. BODY Dice, where the 1 is yellow, the 6 is red, and the rest are
> >blue (all with white pips, except the 1 with black pips), to make it easier
> >to count BODY.
> You could do something like this with three different colors of dice
> markers...
I would rather see both body and stun totals on the die face, in addition
to the color changes.
1 stun
1 body
3 stun
2 body
6 stun
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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Template Bases
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:08:29 -0500 (EST)
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> Rook was right, I had forgotten that there will be
> new GM's using these templates as well as new
> players and it is the groups where everyone is new
> to the system that will get most use out of these
I said that a while ago.
> The point I had been making however was teh way we
> are calling them 30pt plug-ins, and 60 point
> plug-ins. For the sake of the templates we should
> call them Minor and Major powers or something.
> Sure, whilst we are designing them we should have
> the points in mind, but they shouldn't be
> up-front. I'm _still_ of that opinion. :-)
When we say 30pt plug-in, do we mean Active Points or Real Points. A
30pt plug-in for a mutant would be a 6D6 EB, Fire, whereas a gadgeteer's
30pt plug-in could be a 12D6 EB, OAF Flame thrower. How are we going to
balance that? When I realized that problem, I felt that point balancing
would be infeasible.
Joe
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Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 11:11:21 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Entagle Resisted by COM
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At 01:44 PM 2/9/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "L" == Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> writes:
>
>L> Joe Nerdboy, COM 8, is caught by the gaze of The Seductress, COM 30,
>L> who bought Entangle Resisted by COM. Since with a COM 8 Joe doesn't
>L> get to spend a lot of time with supermodels (ever see a supermodel
>L> date ugly or normal looking guys?), he is rapt.
>
>Sorry, Charlie, that is Presence, and Joe's lack thereof.
>
Which opens the possibility of allowing COM to add to Prescence Attacks,
where appropriate...say, +1d6 for each 5 points over COM 15, in situations
where it would make sense for COM to be useful? (Ditto +1d6 for COM<5)
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Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 11:11:47 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Hero Product Idea
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Here's a thought for a probably brief discussion.
What if there were special dice for Hero players? Five possibilities
for special Hero Dice come to mind:
1. BODY Dice, where the 1 is yellow, the 6 is red, and the rest are
blue (all with white pips, except the 1 with black pips), to make it easier
to count BODY.
2. STUN Dice, for Killing Attack STUN modifiers, with the 6 replaced by
a 1.
3. Half Dice, numbered 1-1-2-2-3-3.
4. Luck Dice, with all six sides numbered 6.
5. Unluck Dice, with all six sides numbered 1.
The latter two are rather obviously only good as novelty items, but I
think it'd be cool to have these.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
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Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 13:14:34 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: [Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)]
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> > However, regular reduction should be expanded to the 100% level.
> > Put a huge Stop Sign on it, but put it in the book. It's not that bad,
> > really. The high cost makes it prohibitive. 120 point to be totally
> > impervious to physical attacks.
>
> OK; add a new entry to the Conditional Power Limitation (currently a
> subset of Limited Power, but hopefully will be seperated out in H5): Only
> works against a single special effect: -1/2 L. So 100% Damage Reduction,
> only vs. Fire, would cost 80 points.
Actually, only vs single SFX would be worth quite a bit more than
-1/2. I'd put it somewhere between -1 1/2 and -2.
But add Rat's suggestion of a new damage reduction which is vs
_all_ types of damage of a certain SFX for the same price as one type of
damage vs all SFX.
> > For the AE deflect thing, just buy this UBO, AE. Or, more
> > appropriately, as the character is controlling it, UAO, AE.
>
> Nah... Deflect is already UAO be default - you use it against incoming
> attacks. A flat-out AE should be sufficient.
Hmmm. No, again. That would just deflect any normal-size attacks
in an area. But I was suggesting simulating the power with a damage
reduction, physical and energy, resistent at the 100% level. Just buy UAO
and enough AE to fit the effect.
-Tim Gilberg
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Entagle Resisted by COM
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "L" == Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> writes:
>> Sorry, Charlie, that is Presence, and Joe's lack thereof.
L> Which opens the possibility of allowing COM to add to Prescence Attacks,
COM may modify Presence Attacks, under the auspice of "exhibiting a power",
but only when it is reasonable to do so. It should never outright add.
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Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 11:24:32 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: general query: power advantage
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Im looking at an advantage for a weapon that does damage by impact and
plasma, at the same time. Instead of picking a defense, I'd like the power
to go against the lowest defense the target has between physical and energy,
soft of an odd NND/Armor Piercing variant. I'm not really sure how common
such a power would be or if its worth it, but if it is, Im thinking
something like this:
Attack vs Variable Defense: The attack with this power does damage against
the lowest appropriate defense of the target, whether PD or ED (or resistant
PD or ED). This an RKA with AVVD would be defended by the victims rPD or
rED, whichever is lower. If the target lacks one of the two, it acts on the
defense the target has.
+1/2 advantage
This is a very rough draft, but it doesnt seem to be worth a +1 ordinarily, but
could be very dangerous... its sort of a weak armor piercing that has the
potential to be awful, but this fills a sort of gap in the rules.
----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Limited Power, 5th Ed. (long)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:27:06 -0500 (EST)
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> At 03:08 PM 2/8/1998 -0500, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
> >Force Field
> > Non-resistant: -1
> Comparing PD vs PD + Damage Resistance, I think this should be -1/2.
But straight PD doesn't cost END for the same cost.
> >Multiform
> > All Forms Share END, STUN and BODY: -1/2
> Personally, I'm of a mind that this should be the default. (Isn't it
> already?)
Nope. If Bird Guy's normal human form has 30 STUN and his bird form has 5
STUN and he takes 6 STUN and then turns into a bird, what happens.?
> >Shrinking
> > Cannot use Growth Momentum: -1/4 (Growth Momentum should be described
> > under Size Powers, in the general power rules.)
> Dave Mattingly's "Weak Shrinking" (Shrinking with proportional STR) is a
> good Limitation too.
Damn, forgot that one. And I forgot weak growth, for that matter. (He's
just real tall.)
> >Mandatory Mental Effect
> > This mental power do not work unless a certain level of effect is
> >achieved as described in the power's description. For each 10 points
> >required the power gains a -1/4 limitation. Example: Mind Guy wants a
> >Mind Control in which the affected person never remembers what happened
> >during the control. That Mind Control would take Manadatory Mental Effect
> >at -1/4.
> I do this one a little differently, and I think it's a mechanic worth
> considering for 5th Edition.
> If a character always has a certain effect with a Mental Power, he pays
> a number of points equal to the amount of effect needed. Thus, Mind Guy in
> your example would pay 10 points to always have his targets forget what
> happened during the control.
> This is approximately the same as buying 3d6 of extra Mind Control, with
> a -1/2 Limitation that it can only be applied to this purpose; in other
> words, not too far off the end result you're after.
Both of these work, but they have different side effects: In my version,
a mentallist with a 12D6 Mind Control, MME target does not remember, pays
48 Real Points. With yours, he buys 10D6 Mind Control, +3D6 MC only to
offset target does not remember cost (-1/2) and pays 60 Real Points. Your
version costs 65 Active Points, mine only 60.
I don't know. Mine is cheaper in the long run, but yours doesn't look
"like it" violates campaign limits but keeps Real Cost higher.
Joe
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 13:27:14 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Reply-To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Templates - compiled ideas
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> > And rightfully so. Duplication is expensive for more reason than
> > just utility. It also tends to allow a player to completely monopolize a
> > game. When you move, say, 20 times to the rest of the group's one,
> > everyone else is going to get pretty bored. I'd probably not play in such
> > a game.
>
> Interesting; X Factor never had a problem with Madrox hogging the
> spotlight...
No real genius is needed to see why. But in a RPG, when the
player has 20 characters to control, everyone else is going to be
outshone. the GM can try to crack down on the one player hogging the
spotlight, but it'll be tough. In combat, it is the worst. It's like
having a Speed 12+ character. Everyone else gets to watch you do things.
> Duplicate costs 2 pts for every 5 pts of Duplicates you have; Summon costs
> 30 pts, +1 pt for every 5 pts each Duplicate would have, +5 pts to have
> twice as many Duplicates; Followers cost 1 pt for every 5 pts of
> Duplicates, +5 pts to double the number of Duplicates.
>
> In the first case, you automatically have full control over all of the
> Duplicates; in the second case, you don't; in the third case, you can't
> even Duplicate at will - it's more like having a bunch of clones of
> yourself working for you.
So add an advantage to Followers that make them work like
GM-controlled duplicates, they'll appear and disappear out of the
character.
> So what's so terrible about adding a line to Duplicate along the lines of
> "for +x points, double the number of bodies you can have" or "for +x
> points increase the number of bodies you can have by one"?
Again, it's part of the "hoggin the spotlight" problem. This
would make it too cheap for a character to have lots and lots of utility.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: general query: power advantage
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "CT" == Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net> writes:
CT> Instead of picking a defense, I'd like the power to go against the
CT> lowest defense the target has between physical and energy, soft of an
CT> odd NND/Armor Piercing variant.
AVLD: lower of PD or ED.
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Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 11:45:24 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: general query: power advantage
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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Stainless Steel Rat writes:
> AVLD: lower of PD or ED.
Blarg. AVLD really needs to be variable-cost -- lower of PD/ED isn't worth
+1.5, I'd probably think its worth +1/4.
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:00:27 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Template - Assumptions
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Stephen McGinness <smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk> wrote:
> I had forgotten that there will be
> new GM's using these templates as well as new
> players and it is the groups where everyone is new
> to the system that will get most use out of these
> templates. A group with an experienced GM will
> already have the facility to design the character
> without having to worry about the points etc.
>
This raises a point.
The intended audience should be kept in mind.
The template project was initiated due to the 'Horrors of Hero' thread
which indicated that new players had a sufficiently difficult time constructing
characters that it was 'frightening' them away from the system.
When I review the template discussion, in some cases I think to myself
"this wouldn't be a problem with people that are experienced with Hero".
So, I conclude that the intended audience for the templates is
'people with NO experience with the Hero system'.
Does everybody agree with the following working assumption ?
"The templates are intended to provide new players and refereee of the
Hero system with examples of different character types so they can make
their own characters that are consistent with the characters in published
Hero products."
Curt Hicks
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Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:15:50 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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On Mon, 9 Feb 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> > >No it isn't. Most 'invunerable' supers get damaged eventually, and hero
> > >is a game of NO absolutes. (and please don't do the 'that in itself is an
> > >absolute' line)
>
> Why not? That's the best way to counter that terrible arguement.
> It's a concept that needs supporting, but one that also needs heavy GM
> supervision.
Don't forget to help GM's supervise it. Little magnifying glasses really
aren't much help at all, no matter how well intentioned. Nor is saying
"only with GM permission." Rules lawyers are going to eat GM's for
breakfast if they don't already have a firm grasp on how and when to put
on the brakes (and when not to). After all, the goal is to stop these
things *before* characters manifest themselves as problems, not after.
About the absolute invisibility thing...
how would you build a common staple: "detect invisibility?"
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Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:18:47 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Template Bases
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On Mon, 9 Feb 1998, Stephen McGinness wrote:
> John Desmarais wrote:
> > Except that the point cost is the only vaguely consistant yardstick we
> > have for determining game balance, something new players (and new GMs)
> > haven't learned how to judge for themselves
>
> Rook was right, I had forgotten that there will be
> new GM's using these templates as well as new
> players and it is the groups where everyone is new
> to the system that will get most use out of these
> templates. A group with an experienced GM will
> already have the facility to design the character
> without having to worry about the points etc.
>
> The point I had been making however was teh way we
> are calling them 30pt plug-ins, and 60 point
> plug-ins. For the sake of the templates we should
> call them Minor and Major powers or something.
> Sure, whilst we are designing them we should have
> the points in mind, but they shouldn't be
> up-front. I'm _still_ of that opinion. :-)
Agreed. I have suggested "minor", "standard", and "augmented". Anyone
disagree?
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Subject: Re: Hero Product Idea
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 98 15:28:56 -0500
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From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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On 2/9/98 2:11 PM Bob Greenwade (bob.greenwade@klock.com) Said:
> 1. BODY Dice, where the 1 is yellow, the 6 is red, and the rest are
>blue (all with white pips, except the 1 with black pips), to make it easier
>to count BODY.
You could do something like this with three different colors of dice
markers...
> 2. STUN Dice, for Killing Attack STUN modifiers, with the 6 replaced by
>a 1.
I have a couple of so-called "averaging dice" that we use in some of our
campaigns, they are marked as 2-3-3-4-4-5.
> 3. Half Dice, numbered 1-1-2-2-3-3.
Have some of those, too
> 4. Luck Dice, with all six sides numbered 6.
> 5. Unluck Dice, with all six sides numbered 1.
David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |
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Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:29:02 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Template Bases
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On Mon, 9 Feb 1998, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
> > Rook was right, I had forgotten that there will be
> > new GM's using these templates as well as new
> > players and it is the groups where everyone is new
> > to the system that will get most use out of these
>
> I said that a while ago.
>
> > The point I had been making however was teh way we
> > are calling them 30pt plug-ins, and 60 point
> > plug-ins. For the sake of the templates we should
> > call them Minor and Major powers or something.
> > Sure, whilst we are designing them we should have
> > the points in mind, but they shouldn't be
> > up-front. I'm _still_ of that opinion. :-)
>
> When we say 30pt plug-in, do we mean Active Points or Real Points. A
> 30pt plug-in for a mutant would be a 6D6 EB, Fire, whereas a gadgeteer's
> 30pt plug-in could be a 12D6 EB, OAF Flame thrower. How are we going to
> balance that? When I realized that problem, I felt that point balancing
> would be infeasible.
I've been assuming Real Points. And it's balanced by the fact that the
flame thrower is Obvious and Accessable.
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:59:40 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Templates Discussion
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> >I agree. I can build a character that has lived for ages with the same points
> >that will build someone who was born yesterday. Just because a character is new
> >doesn't mean he/she can't have an experienced background.
>
> Sure you can. But most players who are new enough to the genre and the game
> that they need this template system should probably be playing fairly
> inexperienced characters, especially if we're trying to base it on the
> 250 point standard.
And again, I must point out that this is the whole crux of the
problem. We really don't have players coming in and saying, "I wan't to
be one of the X-Men when they just started out!" Nope, they're saying, "I
want to be one of the X-Men!"
We shouldn't be assuming they want beginning inexperienced heroes,
as it will tend to turn player off of the system.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:01:38 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: [Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)]
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> > > points of Missile Deflection w/ a +2 advantage costs. You are trying to
> > > create an absolute defense in Hero, a thing the system does not even
> > > consider as viable.
> >
> > Sure it is. Try 100% damage reduction, UBO.
>
> Something which doesn't exist in the system, so it's hardly a
> counter-example.
Something the system left out, true, but was mistaken in doing so.
A system that claims to be universal needs to be universal, a simple fact
that has haunted GURPS. Hero doesn't need the same problems. This is an
addition that needs to see print in the 5th edition.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:04:25 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Point Crocks?????
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> > or more impressive, but it will generally have an effect. In the REAL
> > world high STR people have REAL muscles. These muscles take space and
> > generally show, REALLY.
>
> So your contention is that nobody in the REAL world is ever significantly
> stronger than they look? I can't say that that seems to be a very credible
> stance to me.
Not nobody. There are a very rare number of exceptions. It is
possible to look not quite as strong as one is, or look a little stronger
than one is, but it is pretty easy to tell who is better physically than
average. It comes with the stats as a bit of a 0 pt modifier with
advantages and limitations.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 13:13:01 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Limited Power, 5th Ed
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At 02:27 PM 2/9/1998 -0500, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>> At 03:08 PM 2/8/1998 -0500, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>> >Force Field
>> > Non-resistant: -1
>> Comparing PD vs PD + Damage Resistance, I think this should be -1/2.
>But straight PD doesn't cost END for the same cost.
Neither does Damage Resistance.
Look at it this way:
10 PD = 10 points
10 PD Force Field = 10 points.
10 PD + 10 PD Damage Reduction = 15 points.
10 PD + 10 PD Damage Reduction, Costs END = 10 points.
10 Force Field, Damage Resistant = ?
It seems to me that the last two constructs are functionally the same
(if not mechanically identical), so the costs should be the same.
>> >Multiform
>> > All Forms Share END, STUN and BODY: -1/2
>> Personally, I'm of a mind that this should be the default. (Isn't it
>> already?)
>Nope. If Bird Guy's normal human form has 30 STUN and his bird form has 5
>STUN and he takes 6 STUN and then turns into a bird, what happens.?
Checking the HSR, you're right.
Like I said, that *should* be the default.
>> >Mandatory Mental Effect
>> > This mental power do not work unless a certain level of effect is
>> >achieved as described in the power's description. For each 10 points
>> >required the power gains a -1/4 limitation. Example: Mind Guy wants a
>> >Mind Control in which the affected person never remembers what happened
>> >during the control. That Mind Control would take Manadatory Mental
Effect
>> >at -1/4.
>> I do this one a little differently, and I think it's a mechanic worth
>> considering for 5th Edition.
>> If a character always has a certain effect with a Mental Power, he pays
>> a number of points equal to the amount of effect needed. Thus, Mind Guy
in
>> your example would pay 10 points to always have his targets forget what
>> happened during the control.
>> This is approximately the same as buying 3d6 of extra Mind Control,
with
>> a -1/2 Limitation that it can only be applied to this purpose; in other
>> words, not too far off the end result you're after.
>
>Both of these work, but they have different side effects: In my version,
>a mentallist with a 12D6 Mind Control, MME target does not remember, pays
>48 Real Points. With yours, he buys 10D6 Mind Control, +3D6 MC only to
>offset target does not remember cost (-1/2) and pays 60 Real Points. Your
>version costs 65 Active Points, mine only 60.
Close; mine is 60 Active Points: 10d6 +10 points of extra effect.
>I don't know. Mine is cheaper in the long run, but yours doesn't look
>"like it" violates campaign limits but keeps Real Cost higher.
I'm not sure what you're saying here about my version compared to yours.
(The sentence doesn't scan for me.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:15:46 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Reply-To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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> >No it isn't. Most 'invunerable' supers get damaged eventually, and hero
> >is a game of NO absolutes. (and please don't do the 'that in itself is an
> >absolute' line)
Why not? That's the best way to counter that terrible arguement.
It's a concept that needs supporting, but one that also needs heavy GM
supervision.
> well it is heh heh, but... thats why I use the ignores damage reduction
> advantage for +1/2 in my game... caveat emptor
And how does this help anything?!? That is about the worst new
advantage I have _*ever*_ seen. It basically takes the problems caused by
affects desolid and adds to them. with the incredible number of SFX that
can simulate Damage Reduction, what in the name of Hades could possibly
ignore them all?
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 98 21:26:52
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)
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On Mon, 9 Feb 1998 09:38:03 -0800 (PST), Anthony Jackson wrote:
>qts writes:
>
>> That too sounds reasonable, but let's go back a stage: do you have a
>> problem with Deflection per se - are you happy about putting Advantages
>> like AOE on it?
>
>I have a specific problem with AOE on deflection, because deflection is based
>on a contest of CV, and CV isn't terribly meaningful for an AOE -- a bomb which
>someone placed in a building probably has OCV 0. To 'deflect' area effects,
>use force wall.
But part of the Deflection is that the effect goes *somewhere*, which
FW doesn't accurately model, and BTW Deflection isn't based on CV but a
skill roll.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Christopher Taylor\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 98 21:31:55
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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On Sun, 08 Feb 1998 18:36:38 -0800, Christopher Taylor wrote:
>>>>No it isn't. Most 'invunerable' supers get damaged eventually, and hero
>>>>is a game of NO absolutes. (and please don't do the 'that in itself is an
>>>>absolute' line)
>>>
>>>well it is heh heh, but... thats why I use the ignores damage reduction
>>>advantage for +1/2 in my game... caveat emptor
>>
>>Doesn't NND already qualify? You do specify a SFX for the DR, don't
>>you?
>
>No because NNDs are reduced by Damage Reduction too, a dirty little secret
>of the game... DR 'targets' the power used, not the advantage...
Nothing in the description of DR indicates this.
>>Why not just specify that Penetrating (ie the Penetrating part gets
>>through) does this? It seems appropriate. Or Armour Piercing could drop
>>DR by 25% each time.
>
>Thats an interesting idea, although its cleaner to have a specific advantage
>instead.
Can you elaborate?
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 13:33:26 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Hero Product Idea
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---Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> Here's a thought for a probably brief discussion.
> What if there were special dice for Hero players? Five
possibilities
> for special Hero Dice come to mind:
>
> 1. BODY Dice, where the 1 is yellow, the 6 is red, and the rest
are
> blue (all with white pips, except the 1 with black pips), to make it
easier
> to count BODY.
> 2. STUN Dice, for Killing Attack STUN modifiers, with the 6
replaced by
> a 1.
> 3. Half Dice, numbered 1-1-2-2-3-3.
Actually, the d3's are avaiable, numbered just as you describe. Poke
around in the "Dice for D&D" bins at your local gamestore.
-=>John Desmarais
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Stainless Steel Rat\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 98 21:35:40
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!)
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On 08 Feb 1998 19:48:39 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes:
>
>q> BOECV is a pretty expensive Advantage, and you'd have to specify a
>q> reasonable manner of escape (eg make Ego Roll at -1 per 1 Def/Bod)
>
>But that does not address the fact that someone cannot use an EB or KA to
>break his friend out of such an Entangle. BOECV is expensive, but I do not
>agree that it is expensive enough to justify that change in game balance.
I was just giving an example. To pursue your thought, a fellow Hero
could slap the affected one and cause a new Ego roll ("Come on, snap
out of it!").
qts
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net>
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 21:35:49 +0000
Subject: Aaron Allston on herochat
Priority: normal
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Aaron Allston, Hero Guru Extrodinaire, will be the featured guest on
Dalnet's #herochat channell on Feb 22 from 1-2pm PST. Join in and
ask Aaron questions on anything from Hero Games to his latest novel
work!
Theala
----------------
Theala Sildorian
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!
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Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 13:37:28 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Template Bases
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---Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>
> > Rook was right, I had forgotten that there will be
> > new GM's using these templates as well as new
> > players and it is the groups where everyone is new
> > to the system that will get most use out of these
>
> I said that a while ago.
>
> > The point I had been making however was teh way we
> > are calling them 30pt plug-ins, and 60 point
> > plug-ins. For the sake of the templates we should
> > call them Minor and Major powers or something.
> > Sure, whilst we are designing them we should have
> > the points in mind, but they shouldn't be
> > up-front. I'm _still_ of that opinion. :-)
>
> When we say 30pt plug-in, do we mean Active Points or Real Points. A
> 30pt plug-in for a mutant would be a 6D6 EB, Fire, whereas a
gadgeteer's
> 30pt plug-in could be a 12D6 EB, OAF Flame thrower. How are we
going to
> balance that? When I realized that problem, I felt that point
balancing
> would be infeasible.
Real points - but remeber, we're not talking about 30 points of A
power, but 30 (real) points worth of the needed powers to represent
the concept.
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Christopher Taylor\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 98 21:40:00
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: general query: power advantage
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On Mon, 09 Feb 1998 11:24:32 -0800, Christopher Taylor wrote:
>Im looking at an advantage for a weapon that does damage by impact and
>plasma, at the same time. Instead of picking a defense, I'd like the power
>to go against the lowest defense the target has between physical and energy,
>soft of an odd NND/Armor Piercing variant. I'm not really sure how common
>such a power would be or if its worth it, but if it is, Im thinking
>something like this:
>
>Attack vs Variable Defense: The attack with this power does damage against
>the lowest appropriate defense of the target, whether PD or ED (or resistant
>PD or ED). This an RKA with AVVD would be defended by the victims rPD or
>rED, whichever is lower. If the target lacks one of the two, it acts on the
>defense the target has.
>+1/2 advantage
>
>This is a very rough draft, but it doesnt seem to be worth a +1 ordinarily, but
>could be very dangerous... its sort of a weak armor piercing that has the
>potential to be awful, but this fills a sort of gap in the rules.
This definitely qualifies as +1 - the attacker is getting the best
attack. Remember that a NND (+1) is dramatically reduced, if not
negated, by its particular defense(s).
The character should pay for VSFX (+1/2), and if his first attack
doesn't do too well, try again with a different SFX.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 13:41:48 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Template - Assumptions
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---Curt Hicks wrote:
> Does everybody agree with the following working assumption ?
>
> "The templates are intended to provide new players and refereee of
the
> Hero system with examples of different character types so they can
make
> their own characters that are consistent with the characters in
published
> Hero products."
>
> Curt Hicks
Sort of. I think of more as providing new player/refs with a set of
tools to easily make characters that are consistant with the published
characters (after all, the BBB provides examples of several different
character types).
-=>John Desmarais
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 98 21:44:43
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Limited By Time (A limitation for discussion)
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On Sun, 08 Feb 1998 23:47:47 -0500, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>At 07:41 PM 2/8/98, \"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> wrote:
>>On Sun, 08 Feb 1998 15:11:05 -0500, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>>>LIMITED BY TIME <Looking glass>
>>[snip]
>>Isn't this a Continuing Charge?
>
>No, charges limit the number of times per day you can use the power.
Point taken. As such, I'd put a STOP sign by it.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Curt Hicks\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 98 21:47:50
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Template - Assumptions
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On Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:00:27 -0600 (CST), Curt Hicks wrote:
>Does everybody agree with the following working assumption ?
>
>"The templates are intended to provide new players and refereee of the
>Hero system with examples of different character types so they can make
>their own characters that are consistent with the characters in published
>Hero products."
I do.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Tim R. Gilberg\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 98 21:49:15
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: [Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)]
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On Mon, 9 Feb 1998 13:14:34 -0600 (CST), Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>> OK; add a new entry to the Conditional Power Limitation (currently a
>> subset of Limited Power, but hopefully will be seperated out in H5): Only
>> works against a single special effect: -1/2 L. So 100% Damage Reduction,
>> only vs. Fire, would cost 80 points.
>
> Actually, only vs single SFX would be worth quite a bit more than
>-1/2. I'd put it somewhere between -1 1/2 and -2.
This particular example is given a -1 limitation in the description of
DR. (Fire is pretty common).
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 13:54:36 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 03:15 PM 2/9/98 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> And how does this help anything?!? That is about the worst new
>advantage I have _*ever*_ seen. It basically takes the problems caused by
>affects desolid and adds to them. with the incredible number of SFX that
>can simulate Damage Reduction, what in the name of Hades could possibly
>ignore them all?
>
Uhm...ditto the advantage Armor Piercing, or the advantage Penetrating.
I have a character with stretching, and high rPD due to 'flexible body'. A
bullet designed to penetrate hard metal armor isn't going to be any more
damaging to me than a normal bullet would be. Nor would it be effective
against a force field, or against a character whose flesh was incredibly
dense. But we allow Armor Piercing just the same.
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:02:32 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Templates Discussion
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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---"Tim R. Gilberg" wrote:
>
>
> > >I agree. I can build a character that has lived for ages with the
same points
> > >that will build someone who was born yesterday. Just because a
character is new
> > >doesn't mean he/she can't have an experienced background.
> >
> > Sure you can. But most players who are new enough to the genre and
the game
> > that they need this template system should probably be playing
fairly
> > inexperienced characters, especially if we're trying to base it on
the
> > 250 point standard.
>
> And again, I must point out that this is the whole crux of the
> problem. We really don't have players coming in and saying, "I
wan't to
> be one of the X-Men when they just started out!" Nope, they're
saying, "I
> want to be one of the X-Men!"
>
> We shouldn't be assuming they want beginning inexperienced heroes,
> as it will tend to turn player off of the system.
Then what should we be assuming the power levels of thier campaign
will be? The level you run your games at? The level I run my games
at? Without polling every Champions GM out there, the only power
level that can safely be assumed to be "typical" is the level
suggested by and portrayed in the Champions book - and that's 100
point base, 250 point character, 50 active point typical powers.
These power levels tend to produce characters approximating recently
"born" comic book character. Any deviation from these standards are
GM/Campaign specific, and not something that a simple system of
templates can plan for.
-=>John Desmarais
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Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:02:32 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Templates Discussion
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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---"Tim R. Gilberg" wrote:
>
>
> > >I agree. I can build a character that has lived for ages with the
same points
> > >that will build someone who was born yesterday. Just because a
character is new
> > >doesn't mean he/she can't have an experienced background.
> >
> > Sure you can. But most players who are new enough to the genre and
the game
> > that they need this template system should probably be playing
fairly
> > inexperienced characters, especially if we're trying to base it on
the
> > 250 point standard.
>
> And again, I must point out that this is the whole crux of the
> problem. We really don't have players coming in and saying, "I
wan't to
> be one of the X-Men when they just started out!" Nope, they're
saying, "I
> want to be one of the X-Men!"
>
> We shouldn't be assuming they want beginning inexperienced heroes,
> as it will tend to turn player off of the system.
Then what should we be assuming the power levels of thier campaign
will be? The level you run your games at? The level I run my games
at? Without polling every Champions GM out there, the only power
level that can safely be assumed to be "typical" is the level
suggested by and portrayed in the Champions book - and that's 100
point base, 250 point character, 50 active point typical powers.
These power levels tend to produce characters approximating recently
"born" comic book character. Any deviation from these standards are
GM/Campaign specific, and not something that a simple system of
templates can plan for.
-=>John Desmarais
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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Date: 09 Feb 1998 17:14:10 -0500
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
TRG> Why not?
Given that relatively few gamers are mature enough to deal with "overly
powerful" characters, a game that allows such characters will quickly lead
to resentment from the other players. That is why I want a caveat on SFX
Reduction to the effect that any character may not have more than one type
of SFX Reduction at the start of the game, similar to the restriction on
NND attacks.
Admittedly, there are a few players that can handle that kind of situation.
But I would like to think that players mature enough to deal with it are
mature enough to step outside of the the cost structure.
A game's core rules have to be usable and fair to the lowest common
denominator of players, mature and immature alike. And to me that means no
invulnerable PCs, at least as far as the core rules are concerned.
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Template Bases
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:19:58 -0800 (PST)
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> > When we say 30pt plug-in, do we mean Active Points or Real Points. A
> > 30pt plug-in for a mutant would be a 6D6 EB, Fire, whereas a gadgeteer's
> > 30pt plug-in could be a 12D6 EB, OAF Flame thrower. How are we going to
> > balance that? When I realized that problem, I felt that point balancing
> > would be infeasible.
>
> I've been assuming Real Points. And it's balanced by the fact that the
> flame thrower is Obvious and Accessable.
Yeah, real points. The balance is in the fact that it all has to fit the
50 active point, 15-20 Def, etc... concept put forth in the BBB for the
250 point level.
I was discussing this project with a friend today when I came upon the
idea that we may need 90 point plugins.
Imagine a plugin that has a full EC or Mulipower, but doesn't take up
all of ones points.
30 and 60 are too small, 120 is too much.
Also I've been adding up the points of the stats for the average BBB
character and so far it's coming out to 140-150 on average.
We may want to raise the bases...
I've done it for Brawn and Speed. (Brick and Martial).
I don't have enough examples in the BBB for Brain, so that one
will have to be drawn from suppliments.
Balanced I'm basing off of Energy Projector characters in the BBB
and haven't yet added up the points to.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/
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Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:19:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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Lizard writes:
> Uhm...ditto the advantage Armor Piercing, or the advantage Penetrating.
>
> I have a character with stretching, and high rPD due to 'flexible body'. A
> bullet designed to penetrate hard metal armor isn't going to be any more
> damaging to me than a normal bullet would be. Nor would it be effective
> against a force field, or against a character whose flesh was incredibly
> dense. But we allow Armor Piercing just the same.
>
Oddly enough, for characters whose defenses shouldn't be reduced by an attack
which is optimized to penetrate armor 'hardened defenses'. Incidentally, while
I agree with the stretching, AP munitions probably would be more effective
against people with super-dense flesh, and effectiveness against a force field
is entirely dependent on the SFX of the force field.
As far as 'ignores damage reduction' -- the cost of damage reduction tends to
be comparable to the cost of armor and the like, so ignoring damage reduction
should have about the same cost and restrictions as NND (which ignores armor).
Halving damage reduction isn't all that meaningful.
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Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:29:40 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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> Uhm...ditto the advantage Armor Piercing, or the advantage Penetrating.
Not quite.
> I have a character with stretching, and high rPD due to 'flexible body'. A
> bullet designed to penetrate hard metal armor isn't going to be any more
> damaging to me than a normal bullet would be. Nor would it be effective
> against a force field, or against a character whose flesh was incredibly
> dense. But we allow Armor Piercing just the same.
Actually, that bullet would do just fine against the dense flesh,
and probably the Force Field as well. We are talking about very similar
effects. I might put a partial limitation on the advantage, but it's
probably to small to be worth much. Heck, from where I'm standing, it
probably makes sense for the AP bullet to do more to your flexible flesh.
Or, alternately, it makes more sense for you to have Damage Reduction.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Hero Product Idea
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:31:34 -0800 (PST)
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> Here's a thought for a probably brief discussion.
> What if there were special dice for Hero players? Five possibilities
> for special Hero Dice come to mind:
>
> 1. BODY Dice, where the 1 is yellow, the 6 is red, and the rest are
> blue (all with white pips, except the 1 with black pips), to make it easier
> to count BODY.
This could have applications in other areas as well. Might be
useful.
> 2. STUN Dice, for Killing Attack STUN modifiers, with the 6 replaced by
> a 1.
Possibly. But I always used hit locations, mainly for the sole
reason that it prevents the stun lottery.
> 3. Half Dice, numbered 1-1-2-2-3-3.
I have a set of these.
> 4. Luck Dice, with all six sides numbered 6.
Heh. I'll take those.
> 5. Unluck Dice, with all six sides numbered 1.
No player will ever feel the same... :)
Course, have to sneak them in on your to hit rolls. :)
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Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:43:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)
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qts writes:
> But part of the Deflection is that the effect goes *somewhere*, which
> FW doesn't accurately model, and BTW Deflection isn't based on CV but a
> skill roll.
Deflection is resolved by what is functionally a block roll -- your OCV with
deflection vs the OCV of the attacker. This is _not_ a skill roll, its a
standard CV roll. 3rd edition deflection was handled as a skill roll.
Incidentally, nothing in the 'missile deflection' power requires that the
effect go anywhere.
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Using TUSM
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:02:51 -0800 (PST)
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>
> I tried sending this message before, but it didn't get to the list.
>
It got to me. I just didn't have an answer ready yet. :) Still
don't but I'll try.
> I was wondering how people used the information in the Ultimate Super Mage
> in game worlds other than the Champions Universe. Did you use the
> dimensional info as is, or did you change it?
>
I don't use any of the 'worldbook' info. I've read to much occult
and mythology in my life to be able to stomach it. It is good for a comic
book 'Dr. Strange' appeal though.
About the only section I've used so far is the Voodoo section for
a couple of Voodoo heroes.
I too would like to know what people have gotten out of it.
> I was rather pleased with what I read in TUSM, but a little daunted on how
> to start including the info in my game world.
>
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/
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Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 15:36:18 -0800
From: Clinton Chard <chud@pioneer.net>
Subject: Re: Entagle Resisted by COM
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Lizard wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> At 08:29 PM 2/8/98 -0600, Dataweaver wrote:
> >I have trouble with the "Entangle resisted by COM" idea; how can
> being
> >more attractive make it easier to resist an attractive person?
>
> That's easy, actually.
>
> Joe Nerdboy, COM 8, is caught by the gaze of The Seductress, COM 30,
> who bought Entangle Resisted by COM. Since with a COM 8 Joe doesn't
> get to spend a lot of time with supermodels (ever see a supermodel
> date ugly or normal looking guys?)
Yep, Try Lyle Lovett and Julia Roberts
> , he is rapt.
>
> The Seductress then turns her gaze to Captain Hero, COM 25. Since
> Captain Hero has to beat admirers off with a stick, he is far less
> affected by the beautiful villainess.
--
"Contrariwise," Continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be; and if
it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic."
-Lewis Carroll
Clinton Chard
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!)
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>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes:
q> I was just giving an example. To pursue your thought, a fellow Hero
q> could slap the affected one and cause a new Ego roll ("Come on, snap
q> out of it!").
But I cannot use my powers to break you out of such an Entangle, as I could
with a "normal" Entangle. You still have failed to address this aspect of
the radical change described.
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Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 17:43:24 -0600 (CST)
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From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer
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>PR> I was going to mention the same thing. 25 STR may not be unreasonable
>PR> for Buffy given her ability to smack vampires around and bend steel in
>PR> her bare hands.
>
>Martial arts, plain and simple.
Just jumping in on the band wagon with the Buffy conversation. I'm not
going to requote everything. I'll just say I have to agree with you on most
of the numbers except the 18 intelligence, that is what Giles and Willow are
for. 18 puts her quite above the normal teen and she barely gets passing
grades at times. The 25 Str may be accurate though I don't have the lift
chart with me here. I'm sorry Martial Arts plain and simple doesn't teach
you how to grab a gun and bend the barrel or same to a lead pipe. That is
pure strength. It isn't like she is doing some karate chop. One end in one
hand the other in the other hand, bend. 25 may be too strong, but she does
rate above 20. I might also throw in a HKA only versus vampires to
represent that deadly kick she seems to have on some, though it doens't
happen very often and I wouldn't go giving her too much of a Danger Sense,
she is caught unaware more times them not versus the average run-of-the-mill
vampire.
Sparx
=====================================================
I intend to live forever - so far, so good
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation
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Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 15:56:56 -0800
From: Clinton Chard <chud@pioneer.net>
Subject: Re: Hero Product Idea
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
> Here's a thought for a probably brief discussion.
> What if there were special dice for Hero players? Five possibilities
> for special Hero Dice come to mind:
>
> 1. BODY Dice, where the 1 is yellow, the 6 is red, and the rest are
> blue (all with white pips, except the 1 with black pips), to make it easier
> to count BODY.
> 2. STUN Dice, for Killing Attack STUN modifiers, with the 6 replaced by
> a 1.
> 3. Half Dice, numbered 1-1-2-2-3-3.
> 4. Luck Dice, with all six sides numbered 6.
> 5. Unluck Dice, with all six sides numbered 1.
>
> The latter two are rather obviously only good as novelty items, but I
> think it'd be cool to have these.
Great Idea, I would buy them!
--
"Contrariwise," Continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be; and if it
were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." -Lewis Carroll
Clinton Chard
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Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:01:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Duane Morris <duane@turing.sci.yorku.ca>
Subject: Re: Template - Assumptions
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On Mon, 9 Feb 1998, Curt Hicks wrote:
> This raises a point.
>
> The intended audience should be kept in mind.
>
> The template project was initiated due to the 'Horrors of Hero' thread
> which indicated that new players had a sufficiently difficult time constructing
> characters that it was 'frightening' them away from the system.
> When I review the template discussion, in some cases I think to myself
> "this wouldn't be a problem with people that are experienced with Hero".
> So, I conclude that the intended audience for the templates is
> 'people with NO experience with the Hero system'.
>
> Does everybody agree with the following working assumption ?
>
> "The templates are intended to provide new players and refereee of the
> Hero system with examples of different character types so they can make
> their own characters that are consistent with the characters in published
> Hero products."
That sounds fine. We could even expand it slightly to indicate that it
could be used by "experienced" players to generate characters on the fly.
Duane.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Duane Morris <duane@turing.sci.yorku.ca> Dept. of Technical Services
Faculty of Pure and Applied Science Petrie Science Stores
York University, North York, Ontario M3J 1P3, CANADA
Voice: (416) 736-5244; Fax: (416) 736-5516
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Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 16:29:55 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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At 02:15 PM 2/9/1998 -0600, Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:
>About the absolute invisibility thing...
>how would you build a common staple: "detect invisibility?"
More importantly, how is Detect Invisibility affected by Invisibility to
Detect?
---
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Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 16:33:50 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Hero Product Idea
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At 02:31 PM 2/9/1998 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:
>> Here's a thought for a probably brief discussion.
>> What if there were special dice for Hero players? Five possibilities
>> for special Hero Dice come to mind:
>>
>> 1. BODY Dice, where the 1 is yellow, the 6 is red, and the rest are
>> blue (all with white pips, except the 1 with black pips), to make it easier
>> to count BODY.
>
> This could have applications in other areas as well. Might be
> useful.
Just out of curiosity: Like what?
>> 2. STUN Dice, for Killing Attack STUN modifiers, with the 6 replaced by
>> a 1.
>
> Possibly. But I always used hit locations, mainly for the sole
> reason that it prevents the stun lottery.
Me too. I have a few cases, though, where Hit Locations just aren't
fitting, like Killing Explosions.
>> 3. Half Dice, numbered 1-1-2-2-3-3.
>
> I have a set of these.
Apparently, you're not the only one. Who makes them -- the Armory?
Maybe next time I'm at Bridgeport Hobbies in Portland, I'll look into it.
>> 4. Luck Dice, with all six sides numbered 6.
>
> Heh. I'll take those.
>
>> 5. Unluck Dice, with all six sides numbered 1.
>
> No player will ever feel the same... :)
> Course, have to sneak them in on your to hit rolls. :)
Or one of each to a craps game. >:-]
---
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Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:05:27 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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On Mon, 9 Feb 1998, Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:
> On Mon, 9 Feb 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
> > > >No it isn't. Most 'invunerable' supers get damaged eventually, and hero
> > > >is a game of NO absolutes. (and please don't do the 'that in itself is an
> > > >absolute' line)
> >
> > Why not? That's the best way to counter that terrible arguement.
> > It's a concept that needs supporting, but one that also needs heavy GM
> > supervision.
>
> Don't forget to help GM's supervise it. Little magnifying glasses really
> aren't much help at all, no matter how well intentioned. Nor is saying
> "only with GM permission." Rules lawyers are going to eat GM's for
> breakfast if they don't already have a firm grasp on how and when to put
> on the brakes (and when not to). After all, the goal is to stop these
> things *before* characters manifest themselves as problems, not after.
>
> About the absolute invisibility thing...
> how would you build a common staple: "detect invisibility?"
You certainly wouldn't buy it as extra perception; a character who is
Invisible to Sight (no fringe) _cannot_ be detected by Sight, no matter
_how_ much Enhanced Perception you have with Sight. Sounds pretty
absolute to me...
OTOH, I do agree that Hero should have no Absolutes, in the sense that
every "absolute" it does have should have a counter - it's just that the
counter needn't neccessarily be "brute force". For Invisibility, it is
Detect (anything invisible to Sight) which acts as a counter to
Invisibility to Sight, or simply a Hearing or Radar Sense roll (unless the
person has Invisibility to those Sense Groups as well); likewise, the
counter to Physical Invulnerability would be an attack whose special
effect is predetermined by the character's designer (there's precedence
for this in Desolid, Transform, and 0-END Uncontrolled), or an Energy or
Mental attack. I really don't see a problem with a character who spends
360 points to be immune to all attacks with the exception of a single
special effect. Considering that most characters don't cost 360 points
_total_...
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
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submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"
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Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:09:31 -0700
From: geoff@omg.org (Geoff Speare)
Subject: Re: general query: power advantage
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>Attack vs Variable Defense: The attack with this power does damage against
>the lowest appropriate defense of the target, whether PD or ED (or resistant
>PD or ED). This an RKA with AVVD would be defended by the victims rPD or
>rED, whichever is lower. If the target lacks one of the two, it acts on the
>defense the target has.
>+1/2 advantage
This is a great example of using Limited Power rather than creating a new
advantage.
Buy a pair of attacks (one against PD, one against ED) and limit them so
that only the appropriate one goes off.
Geoff Speare
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Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 17:09:48 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: general query: power advantage
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At 02:35 PM 2/9/98 -0500, you wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "CT" == Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net> writes:
>
>CT> Instead of picking a defense, I'd like the power to go against the
>CT> lowest defense the target has between physical and energy, soft of an
>CT> odd NND/Armor Piercing variant.
>
>AVLD: lower of PD or ED.
.. Sort of, except this is a raspy shaft job of an AVLD, which ordinarily
lets you ignore defenses entirely unless they have the right one.. hardly
worth 1 1/2 for what you get here is it?
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Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 17:14:25 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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> Why not? That's the best way to counter that terrible arguement.
>It's a concept that needs supporting, but one that also needs heavy GM
>supervision.
>
>> well it is heh heh, but... thats why I use the ignores damage reduction
>> advantage for +1/2 in my game... caveat emptor
>
> And how does this help anything?!? That is about the worst new
>advantage I have _*ever*_ seen. It basically takes the problems caused by
>affects desolid and adds to them. with the incredible number of SFX that
>can simulate Damage Reduction, what in the name of Hades could possibly
>ignore them all?
The typical DR effect is a very tough interior, I dont really know of any
other special effects BUT... that isnt really the point. Hero is rife with
advantages that are difficult to justify using a single effect for all
special effects.. Armor Piercing comes to mind, all the defense-affecting
powers are like that.
Damage Reduction is about all encompassing, even NNDs are reduced by it.. it
is a bit odd for the game to have nothing to get around it, isn't it?
>
> -Tim Gilberg
>
> -"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
>
>
>
>
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Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 17:17:34 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: general query: power advantage
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>>Attack vs Variable Defense: The attack with this power does damage against
>>the lowest appropriate defense of the target, whether PD or ED (or resistant
>>PD or ED). This an RKA with AVVD would be defended by the victims rPD or
>>rED, whichever is lower. If the target lacks one of the two, it acts on the
>>defense the target has.
>>+1/2 advantage
>This definitely qualifies as +1 - the attacker is getting the best
>attack. Remember that a NND (+1) is dramatically reduced, if not
>negated, by its particular defense(s).
Im not sure this is as powerful as NND, although it doesnt strip the body
damage away, it NEVER ignores defenses, and its very rare in my gaming
experience when someone has a significant difference between PD and ED...
>The character should pay for VSFX (+1/2), and if his first attack
>doesn't do too well, try again with a different SFX.
>qts
well that works for successive attacks, I was thinking of something that
would be for a single attack...one shot, works vs lowest defense.
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Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 17:20:03 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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>As far as 'ignores damage reduction' -- the cost of damage reduction tends to
>be comparable to the cost of armor and the like, so ignoring damage reduction
>should have about the same cost and restrictions as NND (which ignores armor).
>Halving damage reduction isn't all that meaningful.
A good argument, but I just can't help but notice that NND will be a useful
allotment of points maybe 75% of the time or more, whereas IDR would be
useful what, one time out of 10? 50? How many times does one meet an enemy
with damage reduction?
That seems to be worth making it somewhat cheaper, although I like the idea
of making it stun only perhaps...
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Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 17:21:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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Christopher Taylor writes:
> The typical DR effect is a very tough interior, I dont really know of any
> other special effects BUT... that isnt really the point. Hero is rife with
> advantages that are difficult to justify using a single effect for all
> special effects.. Armor Piercing comes to mind, all the defense-affecting
> powers are like that.
>
Tough interior? Interesting, the most common SFX I've seen for damage
reduction were:
a) 'rolling with the blow' (usually with several limitations)
b) amorphous/semisolid
c) regeneration/lack of vitals
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Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 17:24:38 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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>>No because NNDs are reduced by Damage Reduction too, a dirty little secret
>>of the game... DR 'targets' the power used, not the advantage...
>
>Nothing in the description of DR indicates this.
No, but it doesnt need to. Damage Reduction affects the damage done after
defenses... NND ignores defenses, it doesnt change the attack any, its still
an energy blast... so NND ignores your defenses, the dice are rolled, you
apply the damage reduction to the damage, like any other attack.
>>>Why not just specify that Penetrating (ie the Penetrating part gets
>>>through) does this? It seems appropriate. Or Armour Piercing could drop
>>>DR by 25% each time.
>>
>>Thats an interesting idea, although its cleaner to have a specific advantage
>>instead.
>
>Can you elaborate?
well instead of having Armor Piercing do ANOTHER thing (vs teleport,
defenses and now damage reduction), it seems more elegant and results in
less stacking to have a new advantage. But for the price, I think no one
would ever pay for it, 1/2 to lower damage reduction one level? It comes in
useful maybe one out of every ten fights and a reduction of one level of DR
would not even be noticed because of the loss of dice from the advantage
(lose 1/3 dice due to active cost limits)
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Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 17:31:34 -0800
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--
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it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic."
-Lewis Carroll
Clinton Chard
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Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:48:12 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: [Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)]
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> > Actually, only vs single SFX would be worth quite a bit more than
> >-1/2. I'd put it somewhere between -1 1/2 and -2.
>
> This particular example is given a -1 limitation in the description of
> DR. (Fire is pretty common).
O.K. Didn't actually remember what it had. Notably, Cosmic
Energy Attacks SFX would result in a larger limitation.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:52:28 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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> TRG> Why not?
>
> Given that relatively few gamers are mature enough to deal with "overly
> powerful" characters, a game that allows such characters will quickly lead
> to resentment from the other players. That is why I want a caveat on SFX
> Reduction to the effect that any character may not have more than one type
> of SFX Reduction at the start of the game, similar to the restriction on
> NND attacks.
That's quite fine.
> Admittedly, there are a few players that can handle that kind of situation.
> But I would like to think that players mature enough to deal with it are
> mature enough to step outside of the the cost structure.
Fine, but the rules should be included in even the "core" rules
set.
> A game's core rules have to be usable and fair to the lowest common
> denominator of players, mature and immature alike. And to me that means no
> invulnerable PCs, at least as far as the core rules are concerned.
That's way too limiting a standpoint. If you want to leave out
anything that could be abusive or result in "invincible" characters, you
would have to disallow defenses and attacks of all sorts. Also, of
course, no movement power as that would let a player be out of any
situation where combat is possible.
You can't disallow everything that is possible to exploit and
still have a rules set.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 17:53:11 -0800
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger)
Subject: Fantasy Hero: Bless spell?
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I was just contemplating starting a Fantasy Hero campaign for some hardcore
AD&D players I know, in order to lure them over to the Hero system. And I
was thinking of what spells I could port over.
How would you build a standard bless spell?
1)An AOE Dex Aid, only for CV bonuses?
2)Or could you just Aid Combat Skill Levels? This one is a little bit of a
grey area. Not all characters have CSLs, and some people take the Aid rules
to say that you can't Aid anything that a character doesn't already have.
(I've seen a houserule that stated if you wanted to Aid a power that
someone didn't have, you had to double the effect. i.e., to Aid EB on
someone without it, each EB die would be 10 pts.)
3)Or could you just buy CSLs, UBO, AOE? Probably as a continuing charge, or
with 0DCV Concentrate throughout.
I know that the rules state you should always take the most expensive way
to create a power, but #1 and #2 would be fairly close in cost. And #3 is
just the easiest, since you don't have to worry about power fade.
Which would you choose, or is there another way?
Richard
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Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:58:57 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Templates Discussion
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> at? Without polling every Champions GM out there, the only power
> level that can safely be assumed to be "typical" is the level
> suggested by and portrayed in the Champions book - and that's 100
> point base, 250 point character, 50 active point typical powers.
> These power levels tend to produce characters approximating recently
> "born" comic book character. Any deviation from these standards are
> GM/Campaign specific, and not something that a simple system of
> templates can plan for.
Then change the standard. We are talking about a forthcoming
editon of the rules. Bump things up to the 300, 350, or 400 point levels.
The system will still be the same, and perhaps we can avoid some
point-saving tricks.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 20:04:08 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!)
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> q> I was just giving an example. To pursue your thought, a fellow Hero
> q> could slap the affected one and cause a new Ego roll ("Come on, snap
> q> out of it!").
>
> But I cannot use my powers to break you out of such an Entangle, as I could
> with a "normal" Entangle. You still have failed to address this aspect of
> the radical change described.
Actually, that needs to be added into all entagles as an option,
even normal ones, IMHO. It's a fitting SFX. Try a cross-dimentional
force just holding the target, which cannot be targeted by any outside
force. Only the target can try to break out, though grabbing the targets
limbs and "pulling" can result in a combined attempt to break-out. Give
this a +1/2 or so advantage, then balance it by requiring some other
common way to break out, like being hit by a bright light, or something.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 18:07:14 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Entangle (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!)
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Joe Mucchiello wrote:
> I'm not sure if "Advantaged" is a good or a bad idea. But, why not just
> include this mechanic in the Entangle description? In fact, why is basing
> Entangle on PRE an advantage? Seems no stronger that basing it on STR to
> me. I think I'm going to use that Paralyzed by fear in another character.
>
> Why not 10 AP/1D6 for STR, INT, PRE, 15 AP/1D6 for CON, BODY, EGO and
> 20 AP/1D6 for DEX?
> Or
> +1/2 for CON, BODY and EGO; +1 for DEX; -1/2 for COM.
I'm curious as to why you would wish to have different costs based on
the stat. Ignore the differences for stats but you must need to determine what
the effects of attacks will be. If normal attacks still affect it then don't
change the cost of the entangle. If normal attacks dont affect then apply
transparent defences as listed under entangle (+1/2 advantage).
It all, of course, hinges on special effects and GM's permission.
--
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Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 18:09:51 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
> >Characters can Block HTH attacks by default; the only thing
> >Missile Deflection does is extend that no ranged attacks.
>
> Not exactly. You can only Block one attack per Phase, but you can
> Missile Deflect multiple attacks.
Excuse me? You can block as many attacks as you are able. You
just get a cumulative -2 every extra attempt until you fail
--
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From: lowecm@polaris.clarkson.edu
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 21:13:45 -0500 (EST)
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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> Damage Reduction is about all encompassing, even NNDs are reduced by it.. it
> is a bit odd for the game to have nothing to get around it, isn't it?
Thats why Damage Reduction only goes up to 75%. 100% Damage Reduction
is already in the game. Desolid, bought can't walk through solid
objects. For buying the normal Desol with that limitation
(-1/2), its only 27 points. True, you have to pay a whole hell of a
lot for attacks, but its 100% DR, you should pay for it.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
TRG> Fine, but the rules should be included in even the "core" rules
TRG> set.
I think you misunderstand: players that can handle unbalancing characters
don't need rules. Those that cannot handle such characters do need rules.
Two things will happen if you incorporate a rule that attempts to please
both groups. The former will hate the restrictions of the rule and not use
it, favoring local house rules. The latter will not understand the rule
and will either not use it at all, or abuse it, leading to the previously
described scenario of players hating other players.
You cannot please everyone. The choice you have to make is whether to
please the group that needs the crutch or the group that can do quite well
without it.
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Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 21:06:49 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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At 09:13 PM 2/9/98 -0500, you wrote:
>> Damage Reduction is about all encompassing, even NNDs are reduced by it.. it
>> is a bit odd for the game to have nothing to get around it, isn't it?
>
>Thats why Damage Reduction only goes up to 75%. 100% Damage Reduction
>is already in the game. Desolid, bought can't walk through solid
>objects. For buying the normal Desol with that limitation
>(-1/2), its only 27 points. True, you have to pay a whole hell of a
>lot for attacks, but its 100% DR, you should pay for it.
I guess, but thats like saying you can only buy 40 PD, not 145012 to make
sure nothing EVER hurts you... but you still have armor piercing, right?
But Damage Reduction doesnt have any way like that around it, not even NND.
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Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 23:27:53 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Template Bases
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It seems to me that there are two aspects that need to be considered here
for any given suggestion: How convenient is it to Them, and how convenient
is it to Us? Obviously, having both would be ideal; but when there's
conflict, convenience to Them should win out...
On Mon, 9 Feb 1998, John Desmarais wrote:
> On Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:19:58 -0800 (PST), Brian Wong wrote:
> > I was discussing this project with a friend today when I came upon the
> >idea that we may need 90 point plugins.
> >
> > Imagine a plugin that has a full EC or Mulipower, but doesn't take up
> >all of ones points.
> >
> > 30 and 60 are too small, 120 is too much.
>
> So, "minor", "standard", "major", and "augmented"??
First, a full EC or Multipower is certain to be _cheaper_ than attempting
the same abilities without them. Second, this would be the first case
where the conveniences conflict, IMHO: from our perspective, it would be
nice to have a level between "standard" and "major" to work with; but from
the end-user's perspective, such a level would add needless complexity:
min/std/aug min/std/maj/aug
relative values
min = 1/2 x std min = 1/2 x std
aug = 2 x std maj = 1 1/2 x std
aug = 2 x std
possible breakdowns
1 aug 1 aug
2 std 2 std
4 min 4 min
1 std + 2 min 1 std + 2 min
1 maj + 1 min
I don't know; is it worth it? maybe not... or maybe...?? Feedback,
please...
> >Also I've been adding up the points of the stats for the average BBB
> >character and so far it's coming out to 140-150 on average.
>
> I just did a quick glance through the BBB and it looks like most of the
> characters who rely mostly on "powers" as opposed to "stats" fall under
> 125 points for stats. With the "stat intensive" concepts getting a
> characteristic boost from plug-ins, 120 points should work ok for everyone.
<wince> yet another case of the aforementioned conflict - this time,
running against me, apparently...
having the plugins in 30-point multiples is convenient for the system
designers (especially in terms of fitting an integral number of disad
packs to power plugs), as is having two standard plug-ins - but that
requires the power plug-ins to use up 120 points, leaving 130 for the
base, the background, and the freebies; and if the base takes up 120
points, that leaves 10 for background + freebies - and you'd be
hard-pressed to do a _background_ on 10 points...
Maybe, instead of giving a certain number of freebie points, we can
provide an option of trading in a minor plug-in for thirty points of
customization; trim the base down to 115 points; and dedicate the
remaining 15 to background...?
> > We may want to raise the bases...
> > I've done it for Brawn and Speed. (Brick and Martial).
Note that a legitimate Brick would actually be Brawn + Brick; you could
also do Brawn + Energy Projector, for instance, to get an energy projector
who is stronger than normal, but is far less than Brick-average - or you
could use Athlete + Brick to design an individual who is definitely a
brick - but isn't _quite_ up to the usual Brick standards - but who is
much nimbler than the typical brick...
> > I don't have enough examples in the BBB for Brain, so that one
> >will have to be drawn from suppliments.
> > Balanced I'm basing off of Energy Projector characters in the BBB
> >and haven't yet added up the points to.
Sounds like a plan...
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
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Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 06:03:17 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Check
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Golth, barbarian warrior in the Paimaya FH campaign, has put a choke hold
on Fanz, who just stepped out of the house to check on the horses. Golth
responds to the DM with the following...
Is he right?
Can't... keep... all the rules... in my brain... at once!!! ARrrrgh!
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 17:45:25 PST
Subject: Re: RP: Moment of Truth
>You got him totally by surprise. He takes double stun damage, and
>you've CON stunned him. He gets his free post-segment 12 recovery.
>It's now segment 4. You're first.
Actually, while holding his breath, a character may not nave any
recoveries, even post-12.
When my phase comes around, I'll use all four of my levels to do an
extra die of stun - 3d6 NND.
carl
Hurm...
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Subject: SuperHero World & Effects Of Powers
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 08:58:55 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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I was reading two things on the Metro this morning, and it got me to
thinking...
The first thing that I was reading was an article on US Air Force Weapons
Identification technology, discussing how to determine what kind of
weapon was used to destroy an aircraft for example.
The other was a back issue of Thunderbolts.
In a world where super-beings exist, and many (if not most or all) keep
their identities secret, what type of technologies would develop to
identify specific paranormal power uses?
In other words, would the authorities have a way of examining a blast
scorch mark after a superbattle, and, based on data recovered from after
other battles, figuring out that the user of the blast was none other the
the nefarious Dr. Mean?
Has anyone done something like this? Just curious as to the thoughts on
the list about this subject.
David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |
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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: general query: power advantage
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 09:29:07 -0500 (EST)
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> said
>>>>> "CT" == Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net> writes:
>
> CT> Instead of picking a defense, I'd like the power to go against the
> CT> lowest defense the target has between physical and energy, soft of an
> CT> odd NND/Armor Piercing variant.
>
> AVLD: lower of PD or ED.
It's not worth +1 1/2. I would agree with Chris and call it +1/2. You
could model the power like this:
8D6 EB, Physical, Does no damage if target PD is less than ED (-1/4)
8D6 EB, Linked (-1/2), Does no damage if target ED is less than (or equal
to) PD (-1/2) (this one is more often true so it gets a better lim.)
So that's 30+20 which is equivalent to a +1/4. That is just too cheap,
unless all characters in you campaign have equal PD and ED, in which case,
it's too expensive.
Joe
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 08:52:50 -0600 (CST)
Subject: SuperHero World & Effects Of Powers
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David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> wrote:
> In a world where super-beings exist, and many (if not most or all) keep
> their identities secret, what type of technologies would develop to
> identify specific paranormal power uses?
>
> In other words, would the authorities have a way of examining a blast
> scorch mark after a superbattle, and, based on data recovered from after
> other battles, figuring out that the user of the blast was none other the
> the nefarious Dr. Mean?
>
> Has anyone done something like this? Just curious as to the thoughts on
> the list about this subject.
>
Wouldn't Forensics / Medical Pathology / Materials Analysis cover this ?
Curt Hicks
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From: lowecm@polaris.clarkson.edu
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 09:54:33 -0500 (EST)
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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On Mon, 9 Feb 1998, Christopher Taylor wrote:
> At 09:13 PM 2/9/98 -0500, you wrote:
> >> Damage Reduction is about all encompassing, even NNDs are reduced by it.. it
> >> is a bit odd for the game to have nothing to get around it, isn't it?
> >
> >Thats why Damage Reduction only goes up to 75%. 100% Damage Reduction
> >is already in the game. Desolid, bought can't walk through solid
> >objects. For buying the normal Desol with that limitation
> >(-1/2), its only 27 points. True, you have to pay a whole hell of a
> >lot for attacks, but its 100% DR, you should pay for it.
>
> I guess, but thats like saying you can only buy 40 PD, not 145012 to make
> sure nothing EVER hurts you... but you still have armor piercing, right?
> But Damage Reduction doesnt have any way like that around it, not even NND.
AP doesn't affect it. The only way to get through the Desol is either
to have a SFX that goes through or to use Affects Desol. As Desol
says, "When this Power is used, the character is immune to all
physical and energy attacks; the character is also immune to such
things as Power Drain, Flash, or NND attacks."
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 06:54:47 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Check
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At 06:03 AM 2/10/1998 -0600, Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:
>Golth, barbarian warrior in the Paimaya FH campaign, has put a choke hold
>on Fanz, who just stepped out of the house to check on the horses. Golth
>responds to the DM with the following...
>
>Is he right?
>Can't... keep... all the rules... in my brain... at once!!! ARrrrgh!
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 17:45:25 PST
>Subject: Re: RP: Moment of Truth
>
>>You got him totally by surprise. He takes double stun damage, and
>>you've CON stunned him. He gets his free post-segment 12 recovery.
>>It's now segment 4. You're first.
>
>Actually, while holding his breath, a character may not nave any
>recoveries, even post-12.
>
>When my phase comes around, I'll use all four of my levels to do an
>extra die of stun - 3d6 NND.
I'd call the post-12 on this a GM's call, or a Special Effects call on
the Choke Hold. As GM in this case, I'd probably rule no post-12 once the
point for it was made.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 09:00:30 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Template -More Assumptions
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John Desmarais wrote:
>
> Sort of. I think of more as providing new player/refs with a set of
> tools to easily make characters that are consistant with the published
> characters (after all, the BBB provides examples of several different
> character types).
>
I agree. 'set of tools' is better than 'examples'.
Assumption 1)
The templates are designed to provide new players and referees with a set of
tools to easily make characters that are consistent with the published
characters.
Assumption 2)
The templates are designed for super-heroic characters at the recommended
250 point level.
Curt
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Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:18:03 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Sailing Ships
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I've been setting up a pirate campaign, and the Hero fundamentalist in me
is feeling a little uncomfortable with the fact that the rules for ships
in Fantasy Hero Companion II don't quite fit with the regular vehicle
rules. Don't get me wrong - I really like the ship rules. They were lifted
almost entirely from the ICE Campaign Classics Pirate supplement, which is
wonderfully researched, and they seem to do a good job of caputuring the
feel of naval combat while remaining playable. But they deviate from the
normal vehicle rules in several places: ships don't have DEX, their SPD is
given on a different time scale than normal SPD, effectively giving them
SPD's less than one, and various other special rules apply.
This isn't a problem in a heroic-level game; it's easy enough to
understand and you don't have to figure out what a SPD of 5 on a *8 scale
costs. But what if I decide to give the next superhero I design a sloop? I
think I'd be forced to resort to a Physical Limitation: Sailing Ship and
just apply the ship rules with that justification.
Bob, have you dealt with sailing ships at all in the Ultimate
Super-Vehicle?
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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Limited Power, 5th Ed
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:19:39 -0500 (EST)
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Bob said:
> At 02:27 PM 2/9/1998 -0500, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
> >> At 03:08 PM 2/8/1998 -0500, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
> >> >Force Field
> >> > Non-resistant: -1
> >> Comparing PD vs PD + Damage Resistance, I think this should be -1/2.
> >But straight PD doesn't cost END for the same cost.
> Neither does Damage Resistance.
[snip]
Oops, okay, -1/2.
> >> >Mandatory Mental Effect
> >> > This mental power do not work unless a certain level of effect is
> >> >achieved as described in the power's description. For each 10 points
> >> >required the power gains a -1/4 limitation. Example: Mind Guy wants a
> >> >Mind Control in which the affected person never remembers what happened
> >> >during the control. That Mind Control would take Manadatory Mental
> Effect
> >> >at -1/4.
> >> I do this one a little differently, and I think it's a mechanic worth
> >> considering for 5th Edition.
> >> If a character always has a certain effect with a Mental Power, he pays
> >> a number of points equal to the amount of effect needed. Thus, Mind Guy
> in
> >> your example would pay 10 points to always have his targets forget what
> >> happened during the control.
> >> This is approximately the same as buying 3d6 of extra Mind Control,
> with
> >> a -1/2 Limitation that it can only be applied to this purpose; in other
> >> words, not too far off the end result you're after.
> >
> >Both of these work, but they have different side effects: In my version,
> >a mentallist with a 12D6 Mind Control, MME target does not remember, pays
> >48 Real Points. With yours, he buys 10D6 Mind Control, +3D6 MC only to
> >offset target does not remember cost (-1/2) and pays 60 Real Points. Your
> >version costs 65 Active Points, mine only 60.
>
> Close; mine is 60 Active Points: 10d6 +10 points of extra effect.
I was going by the equivalent active points. To get the "guaranteed" +10
points, you modeled it on +3D6 MVC (-1/2), that's 15 Active Points, not
10. To go extreme, suppose I wanted a MC, Target believes he wanted the
actions (+20), Target would do things violently opposed to (+30). Your
way, I could get a normal to do anything and believe he wanted to for 6D6
+50 = 80 active points. (average effect is 21 EGO affected +50 for
required effects or 71 total effect for 80 active points) To get 71 on an
average roll requires a little more than 20D6, or 100 Active points. My
way, the 20D6 MC would have -1 1/4 limitation, costing 44 real points.
(see below)
> >I don't know. Mine is cheaper in the long run, but yours doesn't look
> >"like it" violates campaign limits but keeps Real Cost higher.
>
> I'm not sure what you're saying here about my version compared to yours.
> (The sentence doesn't scan for me.)
I should have put the quotes around "look like". Your version is better
in that it keeps real cost hight, and the number of dice down. But it
also gives a real benefit to the power, about 5 points per 10 spent.
Joe
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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Limited By Time (A limitation for discussion)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:23:26 -0500 (EST)
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> On Sun, 08 Feb 1998 23:47:47 -0500, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
> >At 07:41 PM 2/8/98, \"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> wrote:
> >>On Sun, 08 Feb 1998 15:11:05 -0500, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
> >>>LIMITED BY TIME <Looking glass>
> >>[snip]
> >>Isn't this a Continuing Charge?
> >
> >No, charges limit the number of times per day you can use the power.
>
> Point taken. As such, I'd put a STOP sign by it.
Point taken. I started that post as a comment on Uncontrolled and I
should have carried the STOP sign with it.
Joe
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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Template Bases
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:31:24 -0500 (EST)
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> > > When we say 30pt plug-in, do we mean Active Points or Real Points. A
> > > 30pt plug-in for a mutant would be a 6D6 EB, Fire, whereas a gadgeteer's
> > > 30pt plug-in could be a 12D6 EB, OAF Flame thrower. How are we going to
> > > balance that? When I realized that problem, I felt that point balancing
> > > would be infeasible.
> >
> > I've been assuming Real Points. And it's balanced by the fact that the
> > flame thrower is Obvious and Accessable.
>
> Yeah, real points. The balance is in the fact that it all has to fit the
> 50 active point, 15-20 Def, etc... concept put forth in the BBB for the
> 250 point level.
>
> I was discussing this project with a friend today when I came upon the
> idea that we may need 90 point plugins.
50 Active points, is why, I worked with 25/50/75 in my example post from a
week ago. That could easily expand to 100 as well.
> Imagine a plugin that has a full EC or Mulipower, but doesn't take up
> all of ones points.
That was the reason for 75.
> Also I've been adding up the points of the stats for the average BBB
> character and so far it's coming out to 140-150 on average.
I don't know what the point of averaging the BBB characters is for. I'm
assuming all of the example characters would be rewritten to get in line
with our system, not the other way around. If someone is new to the
system, they don't know how much more powerful 5 SPD, 15 PD is compared to
4 SPD, 12 PD. They only know that the numbers are higher.
> We may want to raise the bases...
Lower them instead to 50 and then provide 25 point add-ins.
I may have to actually work on my version. I gave up because it seemed
that we were going in a direction not too tangential from mine, but now I
don't know. They only problem I have with my own suggestions is that it
provides too many choices to be quick or convenient.
Joe
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 07:36:31 -0800 (PST)
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> TRG> Fine, but the rules should be included in even the "core" rules
> TRG> set.
>
> I think you misunderstand: players that can handle unbalancing characters
> don't need rules. Those that cannot handle such characters do need rules.
> Two things will happen if you incorporate a rule that attempts to please
> both groups. The former will hate the restrictions of the rule and not use
> it, favoring local house rules. The latter will not understand the rule
> and will either not use it at all, or abuse it, leading to the previously
> described scenario of players hating other players.
>
> You cannot please everyone. The choice you have to make is whether to
> please the group that needs the crutch or the group that can do quite well
> without it.
Hmmm.
Western thought seems to often ommit the middle.
There are many of us who like to see the rules be complete and able to
handle what we desire to use them for. People who are also mature enough to
know where not to abuse said rules.
In all liklihood, this group comprises the majority of this list. If
not, I know it at least covers me and my players.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/
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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:40:53 -0500 (EST)
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> >>>Why not just specify that Penetrating (ie the Penetrating part gets
> >>>through) does this? It seems appropriate. Or Armour Piercing could drop
> >>>DR by 25% each time.
> >>
> >>Thats an interesting idea, although its cleaner to have a specific advantage
> >>instead.
> >
> >Can you elaborate?
>
> well instead of having Armor Piercing do ANOTHER thing (vs teleport,
> defenses and now damage reduction), it seems more elegant and results in
> less stacking to have a new advantage. But for the price, I think no one
> would ever pay for it, 1/2 to lower damage reduction one level? It comes in
> useful maybe one out of every ten fights and a reduction of one level of DR
> would not even be noticed because of the loss of dice from the advantage
> (lose 1/3 dice due to active cost limits)
Why create an advantage at all? If you want to get rid of DR then buy a
Suppress and link your attack to it. A 5d6 Suppress will get rid of 25%
of resistent DR for a phase.
Or would you use Dispel?
Joe
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: SuperHero World & Effects Of Powers
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 08:05:53 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> In a world where super-beings exist, and many (if not most or all) keep
> their identities secret, what type of technologies would develop to
> identify specific paranormal power uses?
>
> In other words, would the authorities have a way of examining a blast
> scorch mark after a superbattle, and, based on data recovered from after
> other battles, figuring out that the user of the blast was none other the
> the nefarious Dr. Mean?
>
> Has anyone done something like this? Just curious as to the thoughts on
> the list about this subject.
I'm probably somewhat rare in that in my world the coming of Super's
has slowed technology.
Super's came in big in the early part of the century, well before the
cold war. And none of their 'Super Tech' is mass producable.
They did however slow a lot of the need for an arms race after WWII.
That said, I have no mutant detector ray guns, no PRIMUS, No VIPER. No
Super Agents whatsoever.
Just plain old cops using regular technology to gather clues. That
said...
They could examine a set of scortched footprints and know that it meets
with known patterns of a list of known villians. But couldn't fire up a cosmo
beam detector and know who.
Deductive reasoning lets them typically be able to know when a given
incident involved supers. The nature of the more obvious powers can be
somewhat disertained. But that's about it.
Typically a SUper Crime involves a short investigation, then calling
in the local Heroes to take a look around. When it comes to having located
villians, it's a similar pattern, though often in reverse.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/
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Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 08:09:32 -0800 (PST)
From: Steven Wells <slwells@ucdavis.edu>
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cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Fantasy Hero: Bless spell?
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On Mon, 9 Feb 1998, Richard G Schwerdtfeger wrote:
> I was just contemplating starting a Fantasy Hero campaign for some hardcore
> AD&D players I know, in order to lure them over to the Hero system. And I
> was thinking of what spells I could port over.
>
> How would you build a standard bless spell?
Check out http://www.planetx.org/~joe/gaming/dh.html
This person had much too much free time on his hands and has converted
nearly every facet of AD&D to Hero -- spells, magic items, even the class
system. Nice resource all-in-all.
--------------------------
Steven L. Wells
slwells@ucdavis.edu
Member Team OS/2
--------------------------
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Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:09:40 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Templates Discussion
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On Mon, 9 Feb 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
> > at? Without polling every Champions GM out there, the only power
> > level that can safely be assumed to be "typical" is the level
> > suggested by and portrayed in the Champions book - and that's 100
> > point base, 250 point character, 50 active point typical powers.
> > These power levels tend to produce characters approximating recently
> > "born" comic book character. Any deviation from these standards are
> > GM/Campaign specific, and not something that a simple system of
> > templates can plan for.
>
> Then change the standard. We are talking about a forthcoming
> editon of the rules. Bump things up to the 300, 350, or 400 point levels.
> The system will still be the same, and perhaps we can avoid some
> point-saving tricks.
Neg; we are talking about HSR4 / C5. If we don't have this finished by
the time HSR5 comes out, we'll adjust to fit. But we do _not_ have the
authority to change the standard - only to petition for such a change.
In the meantime, I suggest that we try to work with the existing standard.
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"
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Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:15:44 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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On Mon, 9 Feb 1998 lowecm@polaris.clarkson.edu wrote:
> > Damage Reduction is about all encompassing, even NNDs are reduced by it.. it
> > is a bit odd for the game to have nothing to get around it, isn't it?
>
> Thats why Damage Reduction only goes up to 75%. 100% Damage Reduction
> is already in the game. Desolid, bought can't walk through solid
> objects. For buying the normal Desol with that limitation
> (-1/2), its only 27 points. True, you have to pay a whole hell of a
> lot for attacks, but its 100% DR, you should pay for it.
Desolid, Cannot Walk through Walls (-1/2), Attacks don't actually pass
through you (you can intercept damage; call it a +1 1/2; oh, wait - we
don't have any Enhanced Power advantage... ;) ); must specify one group of
special effects that you're vulnerable to, and applied against both
physical and energy attacks. Net cost: 80 points. Badly underpriced...
Or, 100% Damage Reduction vs. one of Physical, Energy, or Mental attacks:
120 points.
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"
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From: "Trimarco, Robert" <robert.trimarco@gs.com>
Subject: RE: SuperHero World & Effects Of Powers
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:21:32 -0500
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It probably depends on the campaign world you are in... If supers have
been around for decades and have been working for and against law
enforcement and military powers during that time they may have forensic
methods of figuring out how super powers work, how they cause death,
energy signatures, etc. The extent that these powers can tell who did it
or not is up to you... I am thinking the device which can read an energy
blast mark may give you the origin of the power (nuclear, light based,
heat) or a hint of the type of power that caused the blast mark, and you
would have to use your own assumptions on if it was Dr. Mean, Captain
Fire Blast , or Nuke Lad...
> I was reading two things on the Metro this morning, and it got me to
> thinking...
>
> The first thing that I was reading was an article on US Air Force
> Weapons
> Identification technology, discussing how to determine what kind of
> weapon was used to destroy an aircraft for example.
>
> The other was a back issue of Thunderbolts.
>
> In a world where super-beings exist, and many (if not most or all)
> keep
> their identities secret, what type of technologies would develop to
> identify specific paranormal power uses?
>
> In other words, would the authorities have a way of examining a blast
> scorch mark after a superbattle, and, based on data recovered from
> after
> other battles, figuring out that the user of the blast was none other
> the
> the nefarious Dr. Mean?
>
> Has anyone done something like this? Just curious as to the thoughts
> on
> the list about this subject.
>
> David A. Fair |
> SDS International | Think Different
> dfair@sdslink.com |
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 08:34:15 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Site Transfer at klock.com
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Just to keep folks informed....
Around the Klock Software (my ISP) is moving locations in about a week
and a half (scheduled date is Feb 20). This means that there will be some
problems connecting to my website, and there *may* be some mail bounces
(though email is, I'm told, to be the first priority in getting things
re-hooked up).
Don't panic. If all goes smoothly, this should only take a day or two
at most (though with that "if" remember that we're talking about relying on
USWest here).
(I felt that this announcement does belong on the list, because it
affects my website, including Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page. However,
most if not all responses, if any, should probably be taken private.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
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From: lowecm@polaris.clarkson.edu
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:53:02 -0500 (EST)
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Dataweaver wrote:
> On Mon, 9 Feb 1998 lowecm@polaris.clarkson.edu wrote:
>
> > > Damage Reduction is about all encompassing, even NNDs are reduced by it.. it
> > > is a bit odd for the game to have nothing to get around it, isn't it?
> >
> > Thats why Damage Reduction only goes up to 75%. 100% Damage Reduction
> > is already in the game. Desolid, bought can't walk through solid
> > objects. For buying the normal Desol with that limitation
> > (-1/2), its only 27 points. True, you have to pay a whole hell of a
> > lot for attacks, but its 100% DR, you should pay for it.
>
> Desolid, Cannot Walk through Walls (-1/2), Attacks don't actually pass
> through you (you can intercept damage; call it a +1 1/2; oh, wait - we
> don't have any Enhanced Power advantage... ;) ); must specify one group of
> special effects that you're vulnerable to, and applied against both
> physical and energy attacks. Net cost: 80 points. Badly underpriced...
>
> Or, 100% Damage Reduction vs. one of Physical, Energy, or Mental attacks:
> 120 points.
You would just define in the SFX of the Desol that its basically
impervious to damage except for the SFX of a "reasonably common group
of attacks that will affect him while he is desolid." Considering the
cost of attacks, it works out:
27 pts for Desol, can't walk through solid objects + 150 pts for a 50
pt attack = 177 points total. Whereas, 100% DR is 120 pts + 50 pt
attack = 170 points. Pretty close there.
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Templates Discussion
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 09:15:12 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> > > at? Without polling every Champions GM out there, the only power
> > > level that can safely be assumed to be "typical" is the level
> > > suggested by and portrayed in the Champions book - and that's 100
> > > point base, 250 point character, 50 active point typical powers.
> > > These power levels tend to produce characters approximating recently
> > > "born" comic book character. Any deviation from these standards are
> > > GM/Campaign specific, and not something that a simple system of
> > > templates can plan for.
> >
> > Then change the standard. We are talking about a forthcoming
> > editon of the rules. Bump things up to the 300, 350, or 400 point levels.
> > The system will still be the same, and perhaps we can avoid some
> > point-saving tricks.
>
> Neg; we are talking about HSR4 / C5. If we don't have this finished by
> the time HSR5 comes out, we'll adjust to fit. But we do _not_ have the
> authority to change the standard - only to petition for such a change.
>
> In the meantime, I suggest that we try to work with the existing standard.
>
Agreed.
I for one can't stand the 250 point setup. I think it's fatally flawed for
the 50 active limit. ( I think either the first needs to be higher, or the
second lower).
BUT.
It is the published standard. Nothing irks me more than buying a module or
setting and finding it deviates from the standard. I know how to tweak
something that is standard to my settings, but it's a pain if I have to
figure out why a given author made the mods they did before I can bring it
into my own method.
Published material should stick to official, published standards.
Deviation is for house games.
And we're making something to have mass appeal. Not to just fit my
or your game. So it should stick to that standard.
Once it's done and available somewhere, we can each customize it to
our games then beg herogames to change the setting in 5th edition to
our own personal preferences.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 09:16:25 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: SuperHero World & Effects Of Powers
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At 08:58 AM 2/10/1998 -0500, David Fair wrote:
>I was reading two things on the Metro this morning, and it got me to
>thinking...
>
>The first thing that I was reading was an article on US Air Force Weapons
>Identification technology, discussing how to determine what kind of
>weapon was used to destroy an aircraft for example.
>
>The other was a back issue of Thunderbolts.
>
>In a world where super-beings exist, and many (if not most or all) keep
>their identities secret, what type of technologies would develop to
>identify specific paranormal power uses?
>
>In other words, would the authorities have a way of examining a blast
>scorch mark after a superbattle, and, based on data recovered from after
>other battles, figuring out that the user of the blast was none other the
>the nefarious Dr. Mean?
>
>Has anyone done something like this? Just curious as to the thoughts on
>the list about this subject.
Whether or not authorities would have the means to tell which superhuman
flame projector fired what energy blast (as an example) would depend on two
things.
One is how long supers have been around in the world. If they're a
relatively new phenomenon, there won't be much; the authorities would have
enough trouble just dealing with their existance, let alone trying to do
fine forensics. Sure, they could tell which strongman pulled the safe door
off its hinges by sizing the indentations left by the hands and such, but
energy readings?
On the other hand, if you're dealing with someplace like the DC, Marvel,
or Champions Universes where supers have been around since WWII, then there
would probably be some kind of advances in this. For one thing, flames
tend to leave behind some traces of the fuel used, even in the real world;
in the case of organic flame-throwers, this can become as individual as a
saliva sample, leaving behind signs of a unique body chemistry. Size,
intensity, blast pattern, and such might also be considered individual.
The second thing to consider is how advanced technology is on this
world. An energy scanner might be out of the question even in a modern-day
superhero world, but that wouldn't stop the sort of chemical analyses,
radiology, and basic forensics that exist in the real world. In my own
game setting forensic technology is only one or two steps above the real
world (enough to make a challenge for detective heroes), but others might
have different ideas.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
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X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 09:23:32 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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>Why create an advantage at all? If you want to get rid of DR then buy a
>Suppress and link your attack to it. A 5d6 Suppress will get rid of 25%
>of resistent DR for a phase.
>
>Or would you use Dispel?
Well either one would work, but the problem is that it states in the rules
that if you link a dispel/drain/suppress etc to an attack the attack goes
off first against defenses, so you wouldnt get the lowered DR the first
time. Also, its not without precedent (affects desolid) and would cost a
lot less.
----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:25:26 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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On Tue, 10 Feb 1998 lowecm@polaris.clarkson.edu wrote:
> You would just define in the SFX of the Desol that its basically
> impervious to damage except for the SFX of a "reasonably common group
> of attacks that will affect him while he is desolid." Considering the
> cost of attacks, it works out:
> 27 pts for Desol, can't walk through solid objects + 150 pts for a 50
> pt attack = 177 points total. Whereas, 100% DR is 120 pts + 50 pt
> attack = 170 points. Pretty close there.
Oooh.... oooh.... cool multi-slot multipower construct. Someone with
damage reduction and desolid (0 END/invis) and an attack in the same
multipower, could "set" how resistant he is to damage at 0%, 25%, 50%,
75%, or 100%. The Damage Reduction is bought with a limitation like (not
vs.silver), corresponding the the hole in his Desolid. Depending on how he
adjusts the points, he can close himself off, and only have a few points
available for offense, or if he wants to be fully invulnerable, none at
all. But cooler than Starburst, because it's damage reduction, not force
field.
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Template Bases
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 09:34:29 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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Hello;
I'm going to be a little slow today.
My ISP sent me a backlog of about 200 messages over the past week and a
half that had failed to reach me.
according to them I shouldn't have people sending mail to
shell.infinex.com ... of course, every time I send mail from their shell
system it adds the 'shell' in there...
> > I was discussing this project with a friend today when I came upon the
> >idea that we may need 90 point plugins.
> >
> > Imagine a plugin that has a full EC or Mulipower, but doesn't take up
> >all of ones points.
> >
> > 30 and 60 are too small, 120 is too much.
>
> So, "minor", "standard", "major", and "augmented"??
>
Yes. My only worry is that we may be adding more clutter than needed.
Thoughts?
> >Also I've been adding up the points of the stats for the average BBB
> >character and so far it's coming out to 140-150 on average.
>
> I just did a quick glance through the BBB and it looks like most of the characters who
> rely mostly on "powers" as opposed to "stats" fall under 125 points for stats. With the
> "stat intensive" concepts getting a characteristic boost from plug-ins, 120 points should
> work ok for everyone.
>
A B C D E F G
base 120 120 100 150 115 130 125
minor 25 30 30 20 30 25 25
stand 50 60 60 40 60 50 50
major 75 90 90 60 90 75 75
augm 100 120 120 80 120 100 100
bckgnd 15 10 15 15 15 15 15
free 15 0 15 5 0 5 10
?
Here goes this whole monster again.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Templates Discussion
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 09:41:45 -0800 (PST)
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> > Sure you can. But most players who are new enough to the genre and the game
> > that they need this template system should probably be playing fairly
> > inexperienced characters, especially if we're trying to base it on the
> > 250 point standard.
>
> And again, I must point out that this is the whole crux of the
> problem. We really don't have players coming in and saying, "I wan't to
> be one of the X-Men when they just started out!" Nope, they're saying, "I
> want to be one of the X-Men!"
>
> We shouldn't be assuming they want beginning inexperienced heroes,
> as it will tend to turn player off of the system.
Agreed. The '1st level PC' syndrome is something inheritted from D&D.
It can no longer be assumed that your average new player comes from a D&D
background. So while we can justify a points standard and power level
standard; it's much harder to justify an origin standard.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 09:41:47 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Mandatory Mental Effect
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At 10:19 AM 2/10/1998 -0500, Joe Mucchiello wrote
>> >> >Mandatory Mental Effect
>> >> > This mental power do not work unless a certain level of effect is
>> >> >achieved as described in the power's description. For each 10 points
>> >> >required the power gains a -1/4 limitation. Example: Mind Guy wants
a
>> >> >Mind Control in which the affected person never remembers what
happened
>> >> >during the control. That Mind Control would take Manadatory Mental
>> Effect
>> >> >at -1/4.
>> >> I do this one a little differently, and I think it's a mechanic
worth
>> >> considering for 5th Edition.
>> >> If a character always has a certain effect with a Mental Power, he
pays
>> >> a number of points equal to the amount of effect needed. Thus, Mind
Guy
>> in
>> >> your example would pay 10 points to always have his targets forget
what
>> >> happened during the control.
>> >> This is approximately the same as buying 3d6 of extra Mind Control,
>> with
>> >> a -1/2 Limitation that it can only be applied to this purpose; in
other
>> >> words, not too far off the end result you're after.
>> >
>> >Both of these work, but they have different side effects: In my version,
>> >a mentallist with a 12D6 Mind Control, MME target does not remember, pays
>> >48 Real Points. With yours, he buys 10D6 Mind Control, +3D6 MC only to
>> >offset target does not remember cost (-1/2) and pays 60 Real Points.
Your
>> >version costs 65 Active Points, mine only 60.
>>
>> Close; mine is 60 Active Points: 10d6 +10 points of extra effect.
>
>I was going by the equivalent active points. To get the "guaranteed" +10
>points, you modeled it on +3D6 MVC (-1/2), that's 15 Active Points, not
>10.
It's what I model it on, but not what it actually *is.* What it
actually *is,* is 10 points of guaranteed points.
>10. To go extreme, suppose I wanted a MC, Target believes he wanted the
>actions (+20), Target would do things violently opposed to (+30). Your
>way, I could get a normal to do anything and believe he wanted to for 6D6
>+50 = 80 active points. (average effect is 21 EGO affected +50 for
>required effects or 71 total effect for 80 active points) To get 71 on an
>average roll requires a little more than 20D6, or 100 Active points. My
>way, the 20D6 MC would have -1 1/4 limitation, costing 44 real points.
>(see below)
As a further point of comparison shopping, these would cost 8 END and 10
END, respectively.
>> >I don't know. Mine is cheaper in the long run, but yours doesn't look
>> >"like it" violates campaign limits but keeps Real Cost higher.
>>
>> I'm not sure what you're saying here about my version compared to
yours.
>> (The sentence doesn't scan for me.)
>
>I should have put the quotes around "look like". Your version is better
>in that it keeps real cost hight, and the number of dice down. But it
>also gives a real benefit to the power, about 5 points per 10 spent.
Well, whether that's better or not depends on whether the GM considers
Mental Powers to be too weak or too strong. I've heard arguments both
ways; in fact, I think there was a lengthy debate on the topic a while
back. Personally, I consider them pretty balanced as is.
On which of the two methods is preferable, what do you other folks on
the list think?
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Changing the Standard in 5th (Re: Templates Discussion)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 09:52:06 -0800 (PST)
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> > at? Without polling every Champions GM out there, the only power
> > level that can safely be assumed to be "typical" is the level
> > suggested by and portrayed in the Champions book - and that's 100
> > point base, 250 point character, 50 active point typical powers.
>
> Then change the standard. We are talking about a forthcoming
> editon of the rules. Bump things up to the 300, 350, or 400 point levels.
> The system will still be the same, and perhaps we can avoid some
> point-saving tricks.
I agree with you. But not in the templates. Not unless we get a note
from out of the blue saying "there will be a new standard in 5th and here it
is."
I would love to see 5th have a standard which allows for more
background skill points. I could care less about it's power level. But
not having as much background in my CHampions characters as I do in my
Fantasy Hero characters has always bugged me.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 09:56:44 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Sailing Ships
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At 10:18 AM 2/10/1998 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>
>I've been setting up a pirate campaign, and the Hero fundamentalist in me
>is feeling a little uncomfortable with the fact that the rules for ships
>in Fantasy Hero Companion II don't quite fit with the regular vehicle
>rules. Don't get me wrong - I really like the ship rules. They were lifted
>almost entirely from the ICE Campaign Classics Pirate supplement, which is
>wonderfully researched, and they seem to do a good job of caputuring the
>feel of naval combat while remaining playable. But they deviate from the
>normal vehicle rules in several places: ships don't have DEX, their SPD is
>given on a different time scale than normal SPD, effectively giving them
>SPD's less than one, and various other special rules apply.
I think I do see your problem here.
>This isn't a problem in a heroic-level game; it's easy enough to
>understand and you don't have to figure out what a SPD of 5 on a *8 scale
>costs. But what if I decide to give the next superhero I design a sloop? I
>think I'd be forced to resort to a Physical Limitation: Sailing Ship and
>just apply the ship rules with that justification.
>
>Bob, have you dealt with sailing ships at all in the Ultimate
>Super-Vehicle?
I have to an extent, but clearly nowhere near what I should. I'd
forgotten completely that the Ships rules in FHC2 even existed; clearly,
these should be adapted, at least somewhat, to the mainstream vehicle rules
(or, rather, my expansion of them).
Essentially, I've blown it big time on this count, and I'm glad it was
caught before the Final Draft went out.
However, I do have the answer to your question as you've posted it in
the manuscript as it currently stands. Build the sloop like a regular
boat, but with Gliding, Only Over the Surface of the Water (-1), Subject to
Winds (-1/2). It should not have Swimming, unless it's also motorized.
With a lack of time for going through the manuscript and detail about
what you're lacking, I really can't give more than that at present; and I'm
also unsure of how Bruce is going to like that construct, or how the FHC2
rules are going to work into the manuscript. (Geesh, and it already rivals
TUSM for size!)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 12:58:53 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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On 2/9/98 7:29 PM Bob Greenwade (bob.greenwade@klock.com) Said:
> More importantly, how is Detect Invisibility affected by Invisibility to
>Detect?
And If you have invisibility, Invisible power F/x, invisible vs detect,
are you invisible to the guy who buys Detect:invisibilty to detect? :)
David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |
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Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 12:16:04 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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> Suppress and link your attack to it. A 5d6 Suppress will get rid of 25%
> of resistent DR for a phase.
>
> Or would you use Dispel?
Neither would work as linked attacks that affect defenses take
effect after the attacks they are linked to.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Changing the Standard in 5th (Re: Templates Discussion)
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At 09:52 AM 2/10/98 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:
>> > at? Without polling every Champions GM out there, the only power
>> > level that can safely be assumed to be "typical" is the level
>> > suggested by and portrayed in the Champions book - and that's 100
>> > point base, 250 point character, 50 active point typical powers.
>>
>> Then change the standard. We are talking about a forthcoming
>> editon of the rules. Bump things up to the 300, 350, or 400 point levels.
>> The system will still be the same, and perhaps we can avoid some
>> point-saving tricks.
>
> I agree with you. But not in the templates. Not unless we get a note
>from out of the blue saying "there will be a new standard in 5th and here it
>is."
>
> I would love to see 5th have a standard which allows for more
>background skill points. I could care less about it's power level. But
>not having as much background in my CHampions characters as I do in my
>Fantasy Hero characters has always bugged me.
>
I dislike the 'power inflation' of Hero. Certainly, people are free to run
500 or 1000 point characters if they wish, but I grew up on the days of
100+100 supers and 75+25 non-supers, and had little trouble building
characters to those limits. A character built on 250 points and with 100
points of experience will be a much better character than one built on 350
points.
The 'background skills' problem is best solved by stealing a page from
Fuzion and having a small 'reserve set' of points for skills, knowledges,
etc. Simply adding more points won't cut it, because when the 'baseline'
went from 100+100 to 100+150, the result was character with 50 points more
in EB or Armor or Flight -- not characters with 50 points of background skills.
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:46:39 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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>
> On 2/9/98 7:29 PM Bob Greenwade (bob.greenwade@klock.com) Said:
>
> > More importantly, how is Detect Invisibility affected by Invisibility to
> >Detect?
>
> And If you have invisibility, Invisible power F/x, invisible vs detect,
> are you invisible to the guy who buys Detect:invisibilty to detect? :)
Easy.
Get Detect: things which are invisible to the power Detection of things
ivisible to detect. :)
And before you laugh; I've seen close to this with AP and Hardened
Defenses. I once played in a con game where two of the players had AP
twice on all their attacks, and Hardened three times on all defenses.
That was in addition to all the flash def, pow defense, ego def, and
life support they had. This was normal in the games they played. Unfortunatly
for me, their GM was this con game's GM, so it was on all his villains as well.
And me with my norm of no reistant def's, very few killing attacks, and
AP only on those rare things that are genre justifiable. It's a good thing I
was playing one of my semi-speedster's with a high DCV. :)
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: In support of 'Advantaged'
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:05:35 -0800
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On Monday, February 09, 1998 9:07 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
<snip>
>Multiple Instances (x2
>instances of the same Power [on a Base or Vehicle] or "secondary
entities"
>[such as Duplicates, Followers, or Summonees] for +5 points
Would this allow me to create two Darkness fields for +5 points? It
might be worthwhile for similar effects.
Filksinger
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Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 13:11:32 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Christopher Taylor wrote:
> >Why create an advantage at all? If you want to get rid of DR then buy a
> >Suppress and link your attack to it. A 5d6 Suppress will get rid of 25%
> >of resistent DR for a phase.
> >
> >Or would you use Dispel?
>
> Well either one would work, but the problem is that it states in the rules
> that if you link a dispel/drain/suppress etc to an attack the attack goes
> off first against defenses, so you wouldnt get the lowered DR the first
> time. Also, its not without precedent (affects desolid) and would cost a
> lot less.
Many of us are trying to get rid of "Affects Desolid." We feel that
game-mechanic construct detract from the feel of the role-playing.
Furthermore, it's hard to come up with a special effect that works against
all other special effects. In 5th edition they need to put a lot more work
into special effects--they are, after all, the *real* effects that are
happening, the game mechanics are just models. I wish they were called
real effects and game mechanics were called special effects. Getting past
someone's desolid or damage reduction requires a "makes-sense" approach.
Depending on how the real-world physics of your damage reduction or
desolid works, there ought to be some way around it that makes sense if
you understand what's going on. More work needs to be put into fleshing
out variable SFX, too.
I feel like I fight the tide, but I must drill into my players:
Just because it isn't expressed in HERO doesn't mean it doesn't exist!
Just because it's on your character sheet doesn't mean it will always work
like you think!
Just because you didn't take a limitation doesn't mean it's not limited!
Just because you paid points for it doesn't mean you have a diety-given
right to it all the time!
When special effects and game effects conflict, special effects take
precedence!
If you don't supply a special effect then one will be provided for you
(and you won't know it)! (Which can be fun to play.)
A GM with this approach dispenses with affects desolid, stright-up power
defense, unspecified "hardened" advantages and the like, and replaces them
with the campaign world's pseudo-science. This means the GM has to go to
the trouble of *thinking* of the pseudo-science, but this isn't too hard
and in fact it's fun. Just how *is* it that Mighty Man shoots energy
blasts from his hands? How could that be stopped? What *kind* of
pseudo-energy is it? How could it be drained, disrupted, etc.? What things
would it be *really* effective against? Where might it not work at all?
Working with the players on this you can build a more effective model of
the power from the start. This yields more interesting, more fun to play
powers, and what's even better, you capture the feeling of the comics
better. Many times the heroes don't *know* the full pseudo-science of the
universe. So when their static discharge plasma bolts don't work or aren't
quite as effective vs. a magnetic dissipation field, they're suprised...
they think... they hop out of their normal routine and play "real" heroes
under pressure. They're more likely to try to get SFX bonuses from unique
applications of their powers... They're more likely to think of their
power as a concentrated ion stream than a 12d6 EB, and that puts them more
into the role-playing... Or, if you have spoiled players, they whine.
Spank them.
Yes, yes, you could go slapping around extra dice with SFX limitations,
and put conditional limitations on everything, but why? A good GM will try
to keep everything balanced anyway... and his good pseudo-science will
probably be a better balancing agent than points ever will be. Plus it
gets back to the boring, hum-drum, I know everything about the system and
myself game-playing over role-playing attitude, even if it does make for
more interesting powers.
So, off with ye affects desolid and other olde game mechanics. There's no
such thing as desolid anyway... he's a cloud of smoke, or a stream of
nanites, or dislocated in the ethereal plane, and just how *do* you affect
such-and-such? Think about it. Even the one *with* the desolid probably
doesn't know *everything* that can affect him, unless he's a master of the
pseudo-science of the GM's world (some KS: or SC: appropriate to the SFX).
And if a PC *has* desolid, and is affected by something that isn't on his
list, tough! Put it on the list. Works both ways, too. A bad GM could take
these licenses and misuse them, but what are you doing with a bad GM
anyway?
I keep a Nerf bat to hit players who come to me saying "I want some power
defense." "What?? *whap* What was that you wanted? *whap*" "Uh, uh, a
strong immune system." "Hyper-stable molecular structure." "A mystic
shield that protects me from magical transformations." "Oh, is *that* what
you wanted... I'll give you Power Defense (strong immune system) -2 only
vs. poison and disease; it that all right?" And so forth. Later, if we
discover that the game mechanics aren't adequately modeling the SFX, we
change them. I award an additional limitation sometimes, but a lot of
times these things don't gain points from additional limitations and
anyway, more fun is to think of a corresponding advantage.
Do this and gaming joy is yours. The mechanics of your world are yours to
create, not HERO's, and not your players'. HERO is just a flexible
modeling system, and your players are--well, *players*. Model nothing and
you'll get nothing--a dry mechanical system. Model something and
everything comes to life, full of the genre excitement you want out of a
HERO game. Train your players. You'll thank yourself later.
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Limited Power, 5th Ed. (long)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:12:26 -0800
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On Monday, February 09, 1998 9:17 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
<snip>
>>Multiform
>> All Forms Share END, STUN and BODY: -1/2
>
> Personally, I'm of a mind that this should be the default. (Isn't
it
>already?)
No. If it was, then killing one duplicate would kill them all.
<snip>
>
>>Mandatory Mental Effect
>> This mental power do not work unless a certain level of effect is
>>achieved as described in the power's description. For each 10
points
>>required the power gains a -1/4 limitation. Example: Mind Guy wants
a
>>Mind Control in which the affected person never remembers what
happened
>>during the control. That Mind Control would take Manadatory Mental
Effect
>>at -1/4.
>
> I do this one a little differently, and I think it's a mechanic
worth
>considering for 5th Edition.
> If a character always has a certain effect with a Mental Power, he
pays
>a number of points equal to the amount of effect needed. Thus, Mind
Guy in
>your example would pay 10 points to always have his targets forget
what
>happened during the control.
> This is approximately the same as buying 3d6 of extra Mind
Control, with
>a -1/2 Limitation that it can only be applied to this purpose; in
other
>words, not too far off the end result you're after.
But yours wouldn't cover "Mandatory Mental Effect of EGO +20 (Target
will perform actions he is normally against doing)."
Or would that be +20 points?
Filksinger
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Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 13:17:48 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, David Fair wrote:
> On 2/9/98 7:29 PM Bob Greenwade (bob.greenwade@klock.com) Said:
>
> > More importantly, how is Detect Invisibility affected by Invisibility to
> >Detect?
>
> And If you have invisibility, Invisible power F/x, invisible vs detect,
> are you invisible to the guy who buys Detect:invisibilty to detect? :)
Well, you have to buy armor piercing on your Detect, and the invisible guy
has to put hardened on the Invisibility to Detect:invisibility to detect,
and so then we have to create a new advantage, "Affects Invisible" +1/2 so
that we can Detect: hardened invisible power effects to invisiblity to
detect, affects desolid, variable special effects.
Gag.
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Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:20:45 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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At 10:46 AM 2/10/98 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:
> And before you laugh; I've seen close to this with AP and Hardened
>Defenses. I once played in a con game where two of the players had AP
>twice on all their attacks, and Hardened three times on all defenses.
> That was in addition to all the flash def, pow defense, ego def, and
>life support they had. This was normal in the games they played. Unfortunatly
>for me, their GM was this con game's GM, so it was on all his villains as
well.
Uhm...so what did they do for POWERS? Toss spitballs at each other?
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Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 13:25:30 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Dataweaver writes:
> > Too kludgey, IMHO; and it neglects the ability of an Invulnerable
> > character to use himself as a human shield for someone else. 100% Damage
> > Reduction handles both of these nicely, and for a reasonable price. (Of
> > course, it _does_ mean that point-optimizers will never again purchase rPD
> > 80+...)
>
> Which can actually be a problem in some games, particularly since 100%
> reduction is considerably better than 80+ rPD. For a game where 120 points is
> a reasonable cost for total invulnerability, just buy 80 points of armor. Or,
> invent an advantage 'cannot be bypassed' for armor -- probably worth +1 to +2.
Uh-oh... Then we'd need "Bypass 'cannot be bypassed'" (+1/2 to +1)
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Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 13:29:55 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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On Tue, 10 Feb 1998 lowecm@polaris.clarkson.edu wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Dataweaver wrote:
> > On Mon, 9 Feb 1998 lowecm@polaris.clarkson.edu wrote:
> > > > Damage Reduction is about all encompassing, even NNDs are reduced by it.. it
> > > > is a bit odd for the game to have nothing to get around it, isn't it?
> > >
> > > Thats why Damage Reduction only goes up to 75%. 100% Damage Reduction
> > > is already in the game. Desolid, bought can't walk through solid
> > > objects. For buying the normal Desol with that limitation
> > > (-1/2), its only 27 points. True, you have to pay a whole hell of a
> > > lot for attacks, but its 100% DR, you should pay for it.
> >
> > Desolid, Cannot Walk through Walls (-1/2), Attacks don't actually pass
> > through you (you can intercept damage; call it a +1 1/2; oh, wait - we
> > don't have any Enhanced Power advantage... ;) ); must specify one group of
> > special effects that you're vulnerable to, and applied against both
> > physical and energy attacks. Net cost: 80 points. Badly underpriced...
> >
> > Or, 100% Damage Reduction vs. one of Physical, Energy, or Mental attacks:
> > 120 points.
>
> You would just define in the SFX of the Desol that its basically
> impervious to damage except for the SFX of a "reasonably common group
> of attacks that will affect him while he is desolid." Considering the
> cost of attacks, it works out:
> 27 pts for Desol, can't walk through solid objects + 150 pts for a 50
> pt attack = 177 points total. Whereas, 100% DR is 120 pts + 50 pt
> attack = 170 points. Pretty close there.
Too kludgey, IMHO; and it neglects the ability of an Invulnerable
character to use himself as a human shield for someone else. 100% Damage
Reduction handles both of these nicely, and for a reasonable price. (Of
course, it _does_ mean that point-optimizers will never again purchase rPD
80+...)
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:30:26 -0800
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On Monday, February 09, 1998 4:25 PM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 02:15 PM 2/9/1998 -0600, Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:
>>About the absolute invisibility thing...
>>how would you build a common staple: "detect invisibility?"
>
> More importantly, how is Detect Invisibility affected by
Invisibility to
>Detect?
I don't allow an overall Invisibility to Detect. To have Invisibility
to Detect, one must buy Invisibility to Detect X, where X is clearly
defined.
Filksinger
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Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:35:10 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Organization: Satan's Children
Subject: Re: Changing the Standard in 5th (Re: Templates Discussion)
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Brian Wong wrote:
>
> > > at? Without polling every Champions GM out there, the only power
> > > level that can safely be assumed to be "typical" is the level
> > > suggested by and portrayed in the Champions book - and that's 100
> > > point base, 250 point character, 50 active point typical powers.
> >
> > Then change the standard. We are talking about a forthcoming
> > editon of the rules. Bump things up to the 300, 350, or 400 point levels.
> > The system will still be the same, and perhaps we can avoid some
> > point-saving tricks.
NO! Nononononono!
I've said it before and it bears repeating; 250 points is plenty to
make a beginning character. Enough for 50-60 AP powers and appropriate
defense and DEX and SPD and a few points left for background and/or
support skills. That's enough for beginning players. Since the most
common complaint or fear of Champions (and the Hero system in general)
is the 'inordinate amounts' of math and complexity, keeping the levels
lower and powers simpler is best. ANY OTHER players (who are NOT
beginners); those who have worked with the system a bit and are getting
comfortable with it will make their own levels and won't need a BBB
standard.
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
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Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:42:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
Cc: champ-l@omg.org, champ-l@omg.org
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Dataweaver writes:
> Too kludgey, IMHO; and it neglects the ability of an Invulnerable
> character to use himself as a human shield for someone else. 100% Damage
> Reduction handles both of these nicely, and for a reasonable price. (Of
> course, it _does_ mean that point-optimizers will never again purchase rPD
> 80+...)
Which can actually be a problem in some games, particularly since 100%
reduction is considerably better than 80+ rPD. For a game where 120 points is
a reasonable cost for total invulnerability, just buy 80 points of armor. Or,
invent an advantage 'cannot be bypassed' for armor -- probably worth +1 to +2.
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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 14:56:43 -0500 (EST)
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> > > Damage Reduction is about all encompassing, even NNDs are reduced by it.. it
> > > is a bit odd for the game to have nothing to get around it, isn't it?
> Desolid, Cannot Walk through Walls (-1/2), Attacks don't actually pass
> through you (you can intercept damage; call it a +1 1/2; oh, wait - we
> don't have any Enhanced Power advantage... ;) ); must specify one group of
> special effects that you're vulnerable to, and applied against both
> physical and energy attacks. Net cost: 80 points. Badly underpriced...
Although I think 100% DR is a dumb idea in Hero, you are forgetting the DR
is Persistent and Desolid (whatever you said above) is not. Add a +1 for
0 END, Persistent and you get 120.
> Or, 100% Damage Reduction vs. one of Physical, Energy, or Mental attacks:
> 120 points.
Hey, look, 120. :-)
Joe
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Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:57:01 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Organization: Satan's Children
Subject: Re: SuperHero World & Effects Of Powers
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>In other words, would the authorities have a way of examining a blast
>scorch mark after a superbattle, and, based on data recovered from after
>other battles, figuring out that the user of the blast was none other the
>the nefarious Dr. Mean?
>
>Has anyone done something like this? Just curious as to the thoughts on
>the list about this subject.
There's also another way to affect that dynamic. In my Champs world,
all natural paranormal abilities are a combination of genetic mutation
and the (usually subconscious) tapping into the forces of magic (to
prevent things like one's Fire blast burning up the user).
Additionally, ALL uses of magic leave individual signatures, so anybody
with the ability or technology to read magic signatures can identify
whose laserblast snuffed Sparky.
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 19:57:24
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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On Mon, 09 Feb 1998 16:29:55 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 02:15 PM 2/9/1998 -0600, Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:
>>About the absolute invisibility thing...
>>how would you build a common staple: "detect invisibility?"
>
> More importantly, how is Detect Invisibility affected by Invisibility to
>Detect?
Assuming a Magic base, I've done this by using the Armour Piercing
advantage.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 12:00:41 -0800 (PST)
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> > And before you laugh; I've seen close to this with AP and Hardened
> >Defenses. I once played in a con game where two of the players had AP
> >twice on all their attacks, and Hardened three times on all defenses.
> > That was in addition to all the flash def, pow defense, ego def, and
> >life support they had. This was normal in the games they played. Unfortunatly
> >for me, their GM was this con game's GM, so it was on all his villains as
> well.
>
> Uhm...so what did they do for POWERS? Toss spitballs at each other?
>
Well, I think I once said that almost every champions game I've been
in has had all the players but me show up with the same character...
First game I ever ran they were all Demon spawn trying to be good (1985)
Then I got a team of patriotic paradies.
Then the team of anime babes
Then the team of Martial Artists
Then the WWF team
...
Well, these guys were all big huge white guys in power armor.
save for my Japanese/Apache mixed Ninja Mutant with a little magic. And
one guy who was a Super strong white guy minus the power armor who thought
he was the god of the sun.
They all did these attacks through various interchangeable guns,
missiles, etc...
I thought I was playing Warhammer 40k and had brought the wrong books
at first...
Oh, and of those teams above, the first one is the only one ever
in which the players knew each other before the game.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Christopher Taylor\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 20:02:31
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Mon, 09 Feb 1998 17:24:38 -0800, Christopher Taylor wrote:
>>>No because NNDs are reduced by Damage Reduction too, a dirty little secret
>>>of the game... DR 'targets' the power used, not the advantage...
>>
>>Nothing in the description of DR indicates this.
>
>No, but it doesnt need to. Damage Reduction affects the damage done after
>defenses... NND ignores defenses, it doesnt change the attack any, its still
>an energy blast... so NND ignores your defenses, the dice are rolled, you
>apply the damage reduction to the damage, like any other attack.
Sorry, but DR is a defense, so NND bypasses it (SFX excepting).
Example: Megaman has 50% DR due to his tough skin. Vapour attacks him
with a NND gas attack and Megaman's DR is totally bypassed when he
breathes in.
>>>>Why not just specify that Penetrating (ie the Penetrating part gets
>>>>through) does this? It seems appropriate. Or Armour Piercing could drop
>>>>DR by 25% each time.
>>>
>>>Thats an interesting idea, although its cleaner to have a specific advantage
>>>instead.
>>
>>Can you elaborate?
>
>well instead of having Armor Piercing do ANOTHER thing (vs teleport,
>defenses and now damage reduction), it seems more elegant and results in
>less stacking to have a new advantage. But for the price, I think no one
>would ever pay for it, 1/2 to lower damage reduction one level? It comes in
>useful maybe one out of every ten fights and a reduction of one level of DR
>would not even be noticed because of the loss of dice from the advantage
>(lose 1/3 dice due to active cost limits)
So what? You just have Armour Piercing with the Partial Limitation Only
to Affect Damage Reduction (-1).
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Stainless Steel Rat\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 20:09:17
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On 09 Feb 1998 18:37:33 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes:
>
>q> I was just giving an example. To pursue your thought, a fellow Hero
>q> could slap the affected one and cause a new Ego roll ("Come on, snap
>q> out of it!").
>
>But I cannot use my powers to break you out of such an Entangle, as I could
>with a "normal" Entangle. You still have failed to address this aspect of
>the radical change described.
Why should you have to use your powers?
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Richard G Schwerdtfeger\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 20:10:51
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Fantasy Hero: Bless spell?
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Mon, 9 Feb 1998 17:53:11 -0800, Richard G Schwerdtfeger wrote:
>I was just contemplating starting a Fantasy Hero campaign for some hardcore
>AD&D players I know, in order to lure them over to the Hero system. And I
>was thinking of what spells I could port over.
>
>How would you build a standard bless spell?
>
>1)An AOE Dex Aid, only for CV bonuses?
You'd want the Selective advantage.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Christopher Taylor\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 20:14:16
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: general query: power advantage
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On Mon, 09 Feb 1998 17:17:34 -0800, Christopher Taylor wrote:
>>>Attack vs Variable Defense: The attack with this power does damage against
>>>the lowest appropriate defense of the target, whether PD or ED (or resistant
>>>PD or ED). This an RKA with AVVD would be defended by the victims rPD or
>>>rED, whichever is lower. If the target lacks one of the two, it acts on the
>>>defense the target has.
>>>+1/2 advantage
>
>>This definitely qualifies as +1 - the attacker is getting the best
>>attack. Remember that a NND (+1) is dramatically reduced, if not
>>negated, by its particular defense(s).
>
>Im not sure this is as powerful as NND, although it doesnt strip the body
>damage away, it NEVER ignores defenses, and its very rare in my gaming
>experience when someone has a significant difference between PD and ED...
Look at it this way: Merkon the Mage fires his AVD fireball at his
enemies. The warriors get to pit their pathetic ED against it instead
of their markedly better PD, and the shaman, who has an ED Force Field
up, gains no benefit and uses his pathetic PD. Sorry, +1 it is.
>>The character should pay for VSFX (+1/2), and if his first attack
>>doesn't do too well, try again with a different SFX.
>>qts
>
>well that works for successive attacks, I was thinking of something that
>would be for a single attack...one shot, works vs lowest defense.
Just plain horrible.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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X-Authentication-Warning: bermuda.io.com: traveler owned process doing -bs
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 14:55:30 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Template Bases
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Brian Wong wrote:
> > > I was discussing this project with a friend today when I came upon the
> > >idea that we may need 90 point plugins.
> > >
> > > Imagine a plugin that has a full EC or Mulipower, but doesn't take up
> > >all of ones points.
> > >
> > > 30 and 60 are too small, 120 is too much.
> >
> > So, "minor", "standard", "major", and "augmented"??
> >
> Yes. My only worry is that we may be adding more clutter than needed.
> Thoughts?
Assuming two standard plug-ins, there would be three other options without
"major" in there (one augmented, four minor, or one standard and two
minor); adding "major" adds one option on top of that: one major and one
minor. On the Disads side, a Major Pack would take up 1.5 Standard slots,
which might be a problem...
> > >Also I've been adding up the points of the stats for the average BBB
> > >character and so far it's coming out to 140-150 on average.
> >
> > I just did a quick glance through the BBB and it looks like most of the characters who
> > rely mostly on "powers" as opposed to "stats" fall under 125 points for stats. With the
> > "stat intensive" concepts getting a characteristic boost from plug-ins, 120 points should
> > work ok for everyone.
> >
> A B C D E F G
> base 120 120 100 150 115 130 125
> minor 25 30 30 20 30 25 25
> stand 50 60 60 40 60 50 50
> major 75 90 90 60 90 75 75
> augm 100 120 120 80 120 100 100
> bkgnd 15 10 15 15 15 15 15
> free 15 0 15 5 0 5 10
>
> ?
A, F, and G share the problem that you can not assign an integral number
of disad slots to each power plug-in without having the Disad Pack being
multiples of 25 points each. D has the problem that the plugins might be
a little small. B and E suffer from having no free points, and C is a
little weak on the base points.
> Here goes this whole monster again.
Maybe...
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 10 Feb 1998 16:34:55 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes:
q> Assuming a Magic base, I've done this by using the Armour Piercing
q> advantage.
Ummm... so tell me, then, what defense is being halved?
And I still have problems with this. Invisibility is moderately costly, 40
points for a significant degree of effect. "Detect Invisibility" with a
few features and AP is 10-20 points. You have created an "offense" that is
half the cost of the "defense". This is backwards; in Hero, defenses cost
less.
If I were in your game and got tagged by this, I'd bitch to no end about
it.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!)
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 10 Feb 1998 16:37:27 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes:
>> But I cannot use my powers to break you out of such an Entangle, as I
>> could with a "normal" Entangle. You still have failed to address this
>> aspect of the radical change described.
q> Why should you have to use your powers?
Because that is they way Entangle works. Anyone outside of an Entangle may
attack the Entangle -- do Body damage to it -- in an attempt to break it.
You have removed this aspect from the mechanic. It is up to you to addres
and justify that. You have yet to do so.
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Template Bases
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 13:47:50 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
>>>> 30 and 60 are too small, 120 is too much.
>>>
>>> So, "minor", "standard", "major", and "augmented"??
>>>
>> Yes. My only worry is that we may be adding more clutter than needed.
>> Thoughts?
>
> Assuming two standard plug-ins, there would be three other options without
> "major" in there (one augmented, four minor, or one standard and two
> minor); adding "major" adds one option on top of that: one major and one
> minor. On the Disads side, a Major Pack would take up 1.5 Standard slots,
> which might be a problem...
One minor and one major = complete.
4 minors = complete
2 standard = complete
1 standard and two minor = complete
1 augmented = complete
>>>>Also I've been adding up the points of the stats for the average BBB
>>>>character and so far it's coming out to 140-150 on average.
>>> I just did a quick glance through the BBB and it looks like most of the
>>> characters who rely mostly on "powers" as opposed to "stats" fall under
>>> 125 points for stats. With the "stat intensive" concepts getting a
>>> characteristic boost from plug-ins, 120 points should
>>> work ok for everyone.
>>>
>> A B C D E F G
>> base 120 120 100 150 115 130 125
>> minor 25 30 30 20 30 25 25
>> stand 50 60 60 40 60 50 50
>> major 75 90 90 60 90 75 75
>> augm 100 120 120 80 120 100 100
>> bkgnd 15 10 15 15 15 15 15
>> free 15 0 15 5 0 5 10
>>
>> ?
>
> A, F, and G share the problem that you can not assign an integral number
> of disad slots to each power plug-in without having the Disad Pack being
> multiples of 25 points each. D has the problem that the plugins might be
> a little small. B and E suffer from having no free points, and C is a
> little weak on the base points.
Given that, what do you suggest?
I'm thinking if we did A, F, or G we could make disad packs 20 pointers.
You pick 1 more pack as a result of the base ( a list of packs that best fit
each base?)
This leaves 30 unclaimed.
10 point disad packs? so that even a minor plugin can get two packs?
this would mean that disad packs can be built from 10 to 80 points each, in
multiples of 10. Though I would suggest that if that was done, it be kept to
10,20,30,40, and 50 at most. And you would want most of them to
be 10's or 20's.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 14:04:43 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 01:29 PM 2/10/1998 -0600, Dataweaver wrote:
>> You would just define in the SFX of the Desol that its basically
>> impervious to damage except for the SFX of a "reasonably common group
>> of attacks that will affect him while he is desolid." Considering the
>> cost of attacks, it works out:
>> 27 pts for Desol, can't walk through solid objects + 150 pts for a 50
>> pt attack = 177 points total. Whereas, 100% DR is 120 pts + 50 pt
>> attack = 170 points. Pretty close there.
>
>Too kludgey, IMHO; and it neglects the ability of an Invulnerable
>character to use himself as a human shield for someone else. 100% Damage
>Reduction handles both of these nicely, and for a reasonable price. (Of
>course, it _does_ mean that point-optimizers will never again purchase rPD
>80+...)
"Human shield" was one of the functions of Mr. Lucky (the character I've
GMed for with complete 100% Damage Reduction). He was also good at drawing
fire from other characters, and at going into those potentially deadly
situations in which "nobody could possibly survive that" (like going into
the heart of a nuclear reactor to force the cooling rods into place by
hand).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 14:07:04 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 11:25 AM 2/10/1998 -0600, Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:
>On Tue, 10 Feb 1998 lowecm@polaris.clarkson.edu wrote:
>
>> You would just define in the SFX of the Desol that its basically
>> impervious to damage except for the SFX of a "reasonably common group
>> of attacks that will affect him while he is desolid." Considering the
>> cost of attacks, it works out:
>> 27 pts for Desol, can't walk through solid objects + 150 pts for a 50
>> pt attack = 177 points total. Whereas, 100% DR is 120 pts + 50 pt
>> attack = 170 points. Pretty close there.
>
>Oooh.... oooh.... cool multi-slot multipower construct. Someone with
>damage reduction and desolid (0 END/invis) and an attack in the same
>multipower, could "set" how resistant he is to damage at 0%, 25%, 50%,
>75%, or 100%. The Damage Reduction is bought with a limitation like (not
>vs.silver), corresponding the the hole in his Desolid. Depending on how he
>adjusts the points, he can close himself off, and only have a few points
>available for offense, or if he wants to be fully invulnerable, none at
>all. But cooler than Starburst, because it's damage reduction, not force
>field.
I don't think you could do that, because truth is stranger than fiction,
and that construct is *definitely* stranger than truth! ;-]
But I agree that the construct does look cool. The same type of thing
(at least in principle) might also be possible with Damage Reduction that
Costs END.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 14:18:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Darien Phoenix Lynx writes:
>
> Uh-oh... Then we'd need "Bypass 'cannot be bypassed'" (+1/2 to +1)
>
Nope, we don't. There's already a way to do that -- its called 'more dice'.
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 14:23:49 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Affects Desolid/Power Defense
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At 01:11 PM 2/10/1998 -0600, Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:
>Many of us are trying to get rid of "Affects Desolid." We feel that
>game-mechanic construct detract from the feel of the role-playing.
>Furthermore, it's hard to come up with a special effect that works against
>all other special effects. In 5th edition they need to put a lot more work
>into special effects--they are, after all, the *real* effects that are
>happening, the game mechanics are just models. I wish they were called
>real effects and game mechanics were called special effects. Getting past
>someone's desolid or damage reduction requires a "makes-sense" approach.
>Depending on how the real-world physics of your damage reduction or
>desolid works, there ought to be some way around it that makes sense if
>you understand what's going on. More work needs to be put into fleshing
>out variable SFX, too.
Given that Desolidification must be vulnerable to some specific Special
Effect, I'd recommend making Affects Desolid a +1/4 Advantage which only
affects Desolid characters of a given Special Effect (ghost body, molecular
phasing, dimensional shift, gaseous form, electromagnetic form, or
whatever). A character could only have two different versions of Affects
Desolid on the same Power (usually Entangle, or the DEF of a Base or
Vehicle) with the GM's permission.
>I feel like I fight the tide, but I must drill into my players:
>
>Just because it isn't expressed in HERO doesn't mean it doesn't exist!
>Just because it's on your character sheet doesn't mean it will always work
> like you think!
>Just because you didn't take a limitation doesn't mean it's not limited!
>Just because you paid points for it doesn't mean you have a diety-given
> right to it all the time!
>When special effects and game effects conflict, special effects take
> precedence!
>If you don't supply a special effect then one will be provided for you
> (and you won't know it)! (Which can be fun to play.)
These statements should be put into Hero5, somewhere in the introductory
comments to the Powers section. They could probably stand up just fine,
word for word.
The rest of your text (most of which I've snipped for brevity) should
also be referred to in Hero5, or in the Champions genre book, though it may
not stand up quite so well word-for-word (except maybe in the latter).
>I keep a Nerf bat to hit players who come to me saying "I want some power
>defense." "What?? *whap* What was that you wanted? *whap*" "Uh, uh, a
>strong immune system." "Hyper-stable molecular structure." "A mystic
>shield that protects me from magical transformations." "Oh, is *that* what
>you wanted... I'll give you Power Defense (strong immune system) -2 only
>vs. poison and disease; it that all right?" And so forth. Later, if we
>discover that the game mechanics aren't adequately modeling the SFX, we
>change them. I award an additional limitation sometimes, but a lot of
>times these things don't gain points from additional limitations and
>anyway, more fun is to think of a corresponding advantage.
The only character I've ever seen who had a good SFX for blanket Power
Defense (that is, who I *wouldn't* feel comfortable slapping on a
Limitation) is Bob Ramsey of the Justifiers (see the PC group on my
website). His body instantly adapts and "heals" a portion of whatever
alterations are made to it. This is good against disease, magic, molecular
transformations, poison, or really anything else.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 14:25:02 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 01:17 PM 2/10/1998 -0600, Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:
>On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, David Fair wrote:
>
>> On 2/9/98 7:29 PM Bob Greenwade (bob.greenwade@klock.com) Said:
>>
>> > More importantly, how is Detect Invisibility affected by
Invisibility to
>> >Detect?
>>
>> And If you have invisibility, Invisible power F/x, invisible vs detect,
>> are you invisible to the guy who buys Detect:invisibilty to detect? :)
>
>Well, you have to buy armor piercing on your Detect, and the invisible guy
>has to put hardened on the Invisibility to Detect:invisibility to detect,
>and so then we have to create a new advantage, "Affects Invisible" +1/2 so
>that we can Detect: hardened invisible power effects to invisiblity to
>detect, affects desolid, variable special effects.
Yeah, but couldn't the Detect be Linked to Invisibility?
(Excuse me, I need to Dive for Cover.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 14:32:11 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 08:09 PM 2/10/1998, \"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> wrote:
>On 09 Feb 1998 18:37:33 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
>>>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes:
>>
>>q> I was just giving an example. To pursue your thought, a fellow Hero
>>q> could slap the affected one and cause a new Ego roll ("Come on, snap
>>q> out of it!").
>>
>>But I cannot use my powers to break you out of such an Entangle, as I could
>>with a "normal" Entangle. You still have failed to address this aspect of
>>the radical change described.
>
>Why should you have to use your powers?
It's not a question of requirement; it's a question of availability.
With a normal Entangle, a third party could break the target out by
using an Energy Blast or Killing Attack as well as STR. An Entangle BOECV
which uses EGO to break out could (per TUM's discussion on Entangle: Mental
Paralysis) use EGO Attacks, or any other attack Power (including STUN or
BODY Drain) bought BOECV.
An Entangle that uses PRE to break out, however, could only be attacked
with PRE, an appropriate PRE Attack against the target, a PRE Drain, or a
Power more or less specifically designed to break it. While almost all
Champions characters have some way of doing 12d6 against PD and/or ED, few
have a way of doing 12d6 with one of these attack forms. So, even though
STR and PRE cost roughly the same, this becomes quite an advantage.
---
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X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 15:06:10 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>>>Nothing in the description of DR indicates this.
>>
>>No, but it doesnt need to. Damage Reduction affects the damage done after
>>defenses... NND ignores defenses, it doesnt change the attack any, its still
>>an energy blast... so NND ignores your defenses, the dice are rolled, you
>>apply the damage reduction to the damage, like any other attack.
>
>Sorry, but DR is a defense, so NND bypasses it (SFX excepting).
>
>Example: Megaman has 50% DR due to his tough skin. Vapour attacks him
>with a NND gas attack and Megaman's DR is totally bypassed when he
>breathes in.
thats a nice thought, but not how the power works... NND ignores defenses
unless you have the one you need. But Damage Reduction works AFTER your
defenses, it reduces the damage you take... NND doesnt affect that, it seems
to me
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-----------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 15:06:11 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: general query: power advantage
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To: champ-l@omg.org
>>>This definitely qualifies as +1 - the attacker is getting the best
>>>attack. Remember that a NND (+1) is dramatically reduced, if not
>>>negated, by its particular defense(s).
>>
>>Im not sure this is as powerful as NND, although it doesnt strip the body
>>damage away, it NEVER ignores defenses, and its very rare in my gaming
>>experience when someone has a significant difference between PD and ED...
>
>Look at it this way: Merkon the Mage fires his AVD fireball at his
>enemies. The warriors get to pit their pathetic ED against it instead
>of their markedly better PD, and the shaman, who has an ED Force Field
>up, gains no benefit and uses his pathetic PD. Sorry, +1 it is.
you believe that gettin defense against every attack is as good as rarely
gettin a defense against it???
NND means you have no defense, ever, unless you have the one special case
this mean you ALWAYS get defense against it, but not your best one... I can
hardly see that as equivalent.. more like armor piercing, but not even
really that powerful, since AP halves defenses and its rare in most games
for someone to have one defense half another...
----------------------------------------------------------
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Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 15:22:54 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Aaron Allston on herochat
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 09:35 PM 2/9/1998 +0000, Theala Sildorian wrote:
>Aaron Allston, Hero Guru Extrodinaire, will be the featured guest on
>Dalnet's #herochat channell on Feb 22 from 1-2pm PST. Join in and
>ask Aaron questions on anything from Hero Games to his latest novel
>work!
This oughtta be a cool session. I hope I can be there!
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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From: lowecm@polaris.clarkson.edu
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:35:54 -0500 (EST)
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> "Christopher Taylor" wrote:
> On Mon, 09 Feb 1998 17:24:38 -0800, Christopher Taylor wrote:
>
> >>>No because NNDs are reduced by Damage Reduction too, a dirty little secret
> >>>of the game... DR 'targets' the power used, not the advantage...
> >>
> >>Nothing in the description of DR indicates this.
> >
> >No, but it doesnt need to. Damage Reduction affects the damage done after
> >defenses... NND ignores defenses, it doesnt change the attack any, its still
> >an energy blast... so NND ignores your defenses, the dice are rolled, you
> >apply the damage reduction to the damage, like any other attack.
>
> Sorry, but DR is a defense, so NND bypasses it (SFX excepting).
>
> Example: Megaman has 50% DR due to his tough skin. Vapour attacks him
> with a NND gas attack and Megaman's DR is totally bypassed when he
> breathes in.
Actually no, DR does reduce NND, unless you limit it specifically. As
it says, "Normal Damage Reduction acts against normal, AVLD, and NND
attacks. Resistant Damage Reduction affects normal, AVLD, NND, and
Killing Attacks."
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Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:54:54 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
> > > > Damage Reduction is about all encompassing, even NNDs are reduced by it.. it
> > > > is a bit odd for the game to have nothing to get around it, isn't it?
> > Desolid, Cannot Walk through Walls (-1/2), Attacks don't actually pass
> > through you (you can intercept damage; call it a +1 1/2; oh, wait - we
> > don't have any Enhanced Power advantage... ;) ); must specify one group of
> > special effects that you're vulnerable to, and applied against both
> > physical and energy attacks. Net cost: 80 points. Badly underpriced...
>
> Although I think 100% DR is a dumb idea in Hero, you are forgetting the DR
> is Persistent and Desolid (whatever you said above) is not. Add a +1 for
> 0 END, Persistent and you get 120.
Well, I could get technical and say that it also counters both Physical
and Energy attacks, while Damage Reduction counters one or the other (so
240 points for 100% Damage Reduction against both), butwe're already
heavily into the mechanics as is, so I won't. =)
I'll just mention that 240 points is a substantial chunk of nearly any
character, and - while I would never use 100% Damage Reduction in any of
my games - it doesn't seem to be an unreasonable price for the effects.
> > Or, 100% Damage Reduction vs. one of Physical, Energy, or Mental attacks:
> > 120 points.
>
> Hey, look, 120. :-)
Yeah, well... see above. =)
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"
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Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:02:52 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> "Christopher Taylor" wrote:
> On Mon, 09 Feb 1998 17:24:38 -0800, Christopher Taylor wrote:
>
> >>>No because NNDs are reduced by Damage Reduction too, a dirty little secret
> >>>of the game... DR 'targets' the power used, not the advantage...
> >>
> >>Nothing in the description of DR indicates this.
> >
> >No, but it doesnt need to. Damage Reduction affects the damage done after
> >defenses... NND ignores defenses, it doesnt change the attack any, its still
> >an energy blast... so NND ignores your defenses, the dice are rolled, you
> >apply the damage reduction to the damage, like any other attack.
>
> Sorry, but DR is a defense, so NND bypasses it (SFX excepting).
Where does it say that DR is a defense? Certainly not in the write-up of
DR itself, which tends to imply exactly the opposite (that DR isn't a
defense). Also, it explicitly says "Normal Damage Reduction acts against
normal, AVLD, and NND attacks. Resistant Damage Reduction acts against
normal, AVLD, NND, and Killing Attacks."
> >>>>Why not just specify that Penetrating (ie the Penetrating part gets
> >>>>through) does this? It seems appropriate. Or Armour Piercing could drop
> >>>>DR by 25% each time.
> >>>
> >>>Thats an interesting idea, although its cleaner to have a specific advantage
> >>>instead.
> >>
> >>Can you elaborate?
> >
> >well instead of having Armor Piercing do ANOTHER thing (vs teleport,
> >defenses and now damage reduction), it seems more elegant and results in
> >less stacking to have a new advantage. But for the price, I think no one
> >would ever pay for it, 1/2 to lower damage reduction one level? It comes in
> >useful maybe one out of every ten fights and a reduction of one level of DR
> >would not even be noticed because of the loss of dice from the advantage
> >(lose 1/3 dice due to active cost limits)
>
> So what? You just have Armour Piercing with the Partial Limitation Only
> to Affect Damage Reduction (-1).
...and a further Partial Advantage "Is Able to Affect Damage Reduction
(+1)".
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"
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Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:19:45 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:
> I feel like I fight the tide, but I must drill into my players:
>
> Just because it isn't expressed in HERO doesn't mean it doesn't exist!
> Just because it's on your character sheet doesn't mean it will always work
> like you think!
> Just because you didn't take a limitation doesn't mean it's not limited!
> Just because you paid points for it doesn't mean you have a diety-given
> right to it all the time!
> When special effects and game effects conflict, special effects take
> precedence!
> If you don't supply a special effect then one will be provided for you
> (and you won't know it)! (Which can be fun to play.)
Yes! Definitely a must for H5...
> A GM with this approach dispenses with affects desolid, stright-up power
> defense, unspecified "hardened" advantages and the like, and replaces them
> with the campaign world's pseudo-science.
Yes and no; Affects Desolid needs to go, since Desolid already
incorporates that into itself ("specify the special effect that bypasses
this power"). Hardened and power defense aren's problems at all as long
as a special effect is provided for them.
> This means the GM has to go to
> the trouble of *thinking* of the pseudo-science, but this isn't too hard
> and in fact it's fun. Just how *is* it that Mighty Man shoots energy
> blasts from his hands? How could that be stopped? What *kind* of
> pseudo-energy is it? How could it be drained, disrupted, etc.? What things
> would it be *really* effective against? Where might it not work at all?
"what _kind_ of pseudo-energy is it?" seems a bit like splitting hairs;
the comics don't get that detailed, so why should Champions?
> So, off with ye affects desolid and other olde game mechanics. There's no
> such thing as desolid anyway... he's a cloud of smoke, or a stream of
> nanites, or dislocated in the ethereal plane, and just how *do* you affect
> such-and-such? Think about it. Even the one *with* the desolid probably
> doesn't know *everything* that can affect him, unless he's a master of the
> pseudo-science of the GM's world (some KS: or SC: appropriate to the SFX).
> And if a PC *has* desolid, and is affected by something that isn't on his
> list, tough! Put it on the list. Works both ways, too. A bad GM could take
> these licenses and misuse them, but what are you doing with a bad GM
> anyway?
<sarcasm>
I've got an even better idea! Throw out the game mechanics entirely, and
just do everything free-form! Forget character sheets, and dice, and
models for powers, and just make it all up yourself! </sarcasm>
The approach above works; I've done it. But if you can do this, you don't
need Champions in the first place...
> I keep a Nerf bat to hit players who come to me saying "I want some power
> defense." "What?? *whap* What was that you wanted? *whap*" "Uh, uh, a
> strong immune system." "Hyper-stable molecular structure." "A mystic
> shield that protects me from magical transformations." "Oh, is *that* what
> you wanted... I'll give you Power Defense (strong immune system) -2 only
> vs. poison and disease; it that all right?" And so forth. Later, if we
> discover that the game mechanics aren't adequately modeling the SFX, we
> change them. I award an additional limitation sometimes, but a lot of
> times these things don't gain points from additional limitations and
> anyway, more fun is to think of a corresponding advantage.
I like the idea of requiring that the special effect be listed with every
power on the character sheet...
> Do this and gaming joy is yours. The mechanics of your world are yours to
> create, not HERO's, and not your players'. HERO is just a flexible
> modeling system, and your players are--well, *players*. Model nothing and
> you'll get nothing--a dry mechanical system. Model something and
> everything comes to life, full of the genre excitement you want out of a
> HERO game. Train your players. You'll thank yourself later.
Sounds more like you've got pets rather than players... =\
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"
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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 16:50:56 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 06:35 PM 2/10/98 -0500, lowecm@polaris.clarkson.edu wrote:
>Actually no, DR does reduce NND, unless you limit it specifically. As
>it says, "Normal Damage Reduction acts against normal, AVLD, and NND
>attacks. Resistant Damage Reduction affects normal, AVLD, NND, and
>Killing Attacks."
>
>
Hmmm...I'd like to know how Grasp (75% rDR, Physical) avoids the damage of
poison gas by virtue of his flexible body...
The problem is that if you go with a special effects, rather than game
effects, system, you end up with a 10,000 page rulebook. "So, you have
desolid bought as 'body of insects', and he has an NND attack bought as
'poison gas'..."
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: lowecm@polaris.clarkson.edu
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 20:15:15 -0500 (EST)
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Lizard wrote:
> At 06:35 PM 2/10/98 -0500, lowecm@polaris.clarkson.edu wrote:
>
> >Actually no, DR does reduce NND, unless you limit it specifically. As
> >it says, "Normal Damage Reduction acts against normal, AVLD, and NND
> >attacks. Resistant Damage Reduction affects normal, AVLD, NND, and
> >Killing Attacks."
> >
> >
> Hmmm...I'd like to know how Grasp (75% rDR, Physical) avoids the damage of
> poison gas by virtue of his flexible body...
>
> The problem is that if you go with a special effects, rather than game
> effects, system, you end up with a 10,000 page rulebook. "So, you have
> desolid bought as 'body of insects', and he has an NND attack bought as
> 'poison gas'..."
This actually doesn't have anything to do with special effects. This
is purely game mechanics. But all special effects are limited by the
game mechanics. Any special effect can be bought within the current
system if you work with it. It might cost a bit more than you'd like,
but thats life. It can be built. It doesn't need to have a 10,000
page rulebook to describe every single possibility, as long as you
define the special effects. As it says, there are plenty of 0 point
advantages and limitations on powers depending on the special effect
at GM's descretion. Since a 'flexible body' wouldn't protect against
'poison gas', the GM could simply say that the flexible body guy takes
the full damage anyway. Its just a matter of actually defining the
special effects and sticking with it. Well, that went on a much
larger tangent than I was expecting, so I'll stop now.
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From: bquinlan@october.com (Bob Quinlan)
Date: 10 Feb 98 17:24:04 -0800
Subject: Red October Shutdown
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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I've been rather shocked at the amount of mail I've received in the last
few days. Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to say a few nice
things about Red October.
And thanks to everyone who participated in Red October. I was never
more than the master of ceremonies, the messages and files that made it
interesting all came from you folks.
Don't worry that the material is going to disappear. Several people
helpfully volunteered to take over the archives and the Mactyre's are
now setting up to do it. We hope to have some preliminary links to the
new material in place shortly and I will post here when the archive is
ready for use.
Now that I'll have a little free time, I may even manage to hang out
around here more often. Which you may or may not consider a good
thing... ;-)
--Bob Q
--
bquinlan@october.com
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Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 20:08:02 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Lizard wrote:
> At 06:35 PM 2/10/98 -0500, lowecm@polaris.clarkson.edu wrote:
>
> >Actually no, DR does reduce NND, unless you limit it specifically. As
> >it says, "Normal Damage Reduction acts against normal, AVLD, and NND
> >attacks. Resistant Damage Reduction affects normal, AVLD, NND, and
> >Killing Attacks."
> >
> >
> Hmmm...I'd like to know how Grasp (75% rDR, Physical) avoids the damage of
> poison gas by virtue of his flexible body...
>
> The problem is that if you go with a special effects, rather than game
> effects, system, you end up with a 10,000 page rulebook. "So, you have
> desolid bought as 'body of insects', and he has an NND attack bought as
> 'poison gas'..."
I beg to disagree; that's an example of going with game effects, rather
than special effects. Going with special effects, you follow the
cardinal rule of "just because you didn't limit it, doesn't mean that it
isn't limited". Grasp buys "75% Damage Reduction (flexible body)"; thus,
any special effect that, in the GM's opinion, would do full damage to
someone with a flexible body, does full damage to Grasp. Therre are
inherent limitations on every power in the game that you get no points for
(since _everything's_ got them), and which require GM fiat to enforce -
they boil down to "it makes no sense for this power with this special
effect to work in this situation, so it doesn't". Contrarywise, you have
a free Advantage built into every power, likewise activated only with GM
approval - the ability to use the power in ways that fit its special
effect, but which are not in the technical write-up of the power. That
way, acid spray does not need to include such powers as "Major Transform
to Blindness (acid shot into target's eyes)", etc.
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"
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X-Sender: jrc@pop1.nai.net
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:03:03 -0500
From: "Joe Claffey Jr." <jrc@mail1.nai.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> writes,
>Christopher Taylor writes:
>
>> The typical DR effect is a very tough interior, I dont really know of any
>> other special effects BUT... that isnt really the point. Hero is rife with
>> advantages that are difficult to justify using a single effect for all
>> special effects.. Armor Piercing comes to mind, all the defense-affecting
>> powers are like that.
>>
>Tough interior? Interesting, the most common SFX I've seen for damage
>reduction were:
>a) 'rolling with the blow' (usually with several limitations)
>b) amorphous/semisolid
>c) regeneration/lack of vitals
I've also seen it used (in conjunction with Growth) for very large
items/creatures. (Yeah, you just put a 120mm sabot round into Godzilla, and
he felt it, but it's just a small hole on his scale.)
Joe Claffey | "In the end, everything is a gag."
jrc@ct1.nai.net | - Charlie Chaplin
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Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 21:12:41 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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> And I still have problems with this. Invisibility is moderately costly, 40
> points for a significant degree of effect. "Detect Invisibility" with a
> few features and AP is 10-20 points. You have created an "offense" that is
> half the cost of the "defense". This is backwards; in Hero, defenses cost
> less.
>
> If I were in your game and got tagged by this, I'd bitch to no end about
> it.
Then tell me, Rat, just how exactly to model a Detect Invisibility
type of spell that will expose any invisible creatures. I personally like
Spatial Awareness, but . . .
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 21:18:05 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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> >Example: Megaman has 50% DR due to his tough skin. Vapour attacks him
> >with a NND gas attack and Megaman's DR is totally bypassed when he
> >breathes in.
>
> thats a nice thought, but not how the power works... NND ignores defenses
> unless you have the one you need. But Damage Reduction works AFTER your
> defenses, it reduces the damage you take... NND doesnt affect that, it seems
> to me
Quite wrong. NND is affected by SFX, not by Game Effect. In this
case, unless the SFX of the DR is such to allow stopping a poison gas NND,
I'd have to say that DR isn't going to be of any help. Of course, to be
truely invulnerable, you mix those 100% DRs with all of the appropriate
Life Supports.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 21:20:04 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Affects Desolid/Power Defense
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> The only character I've ever seen who had a good SFX for blanket Power
> Defense (that is, who I *wouldn't* feel comfortable slapping on a
> Limitation) is Bob Ramsey of the Justifiers (see the PC group on my
> website). His body instantly adapts and "heals" a portion of whatever
> alterations are made to it. This is good against disease, magic, molecular
> transformations, poison, or really anything else.
Hmmm. I've found many "just plain hard to change this guy"
excuses to work. Regeneration is a good reason to have some Power Def,
however.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 21:21:27 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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> > Sorry, but DR is a defense, so NND bypasses it (SFX excepting).
> >
> > Example: Megaman has 50% DR due to his tough skin. Vapour attacks him
> > with a NND gas attack and Megaman's DR is totally bypassed when he
> > breathes in.
>
> Actually no, DR does reduce NND, unless you limit it specifically. As
> it says, "Normal Damage Reduction acts against normal, AVLD, and NND
> attacks. Resistant Damage Reduction affects normal, AVLD, NND, and
> Killing Attacks."
But only if the SFX is appropriate. You are dealing with
SFX-dependant powers. Even if the rules say X, you don't always get X if
the SFX doesn't fit.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> Then tell me, Rat, just how exactly to model a Detect Invisibility
> type of spell that will expose any invisible creatures. I personally like
> Spatial Awareness, but . . .
Ranged Targeting Touch? (25 points) (only to detect invisible -?)
(This begs the question of 'what the heck is 'invisible to touch' and can
it exist?)
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
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Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:33:59 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
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Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
> > > Sorry, but DR is a defense, so NND bypasses it (SFX excepting).
> > >
> > > Example: Megaman has 50% DR due to his tough skin. Vapour attacks him
> > > with a NND gas attack and Megaman's DR is totally bypassed when he
> > > breathes in.
> >
> > Actually no, DR does reduce NND, unless you limit it specifically. As
> > it says, "Normal Damage Reduction acts against normal, AVLD, and NND
> > attacks. Resistant Damage Reduction affects normal, AVLD, NND, and
> > Killing Attacks."
>
> But only if the SFX is appropriate. You are dealing with
> SFX-dependant powers. Even if the rules say X, you don't always get X if
> the SFX doesn't fit.
I would consider that to be a given. If it isn't, then it should be...
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
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Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:59:00 -0600
From: Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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jeffj@io.com wrote:
>Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>> Then tell me, Rat, just how exactly to model a Detect Invisibility
>> type of spell that will expose any invisible creatures. I personally like
>> Spatial Awareness, but . . .
>
>Ranged Targeting Touch? (25 points) (only to detect invisible -?)
>(This begs the question of 'what the heck is 'invisible to touch' and can
> it exist?)
("Desolidification"?)
I would suggest using one of:
Dispel or Suppress Invisibility, Area Effect
Change Environment (light), Area Effect, only works on invisible objects
Dispel or Suppress: Sfx=Magic (in world with magic, what else is invisible?)
Basically, it all depends on what you think a "Detect Invisibility" spell
really does. "True Seeing", the high-level AD&D Priest spell, is much
different the aforementioned low-level Wizard spell, for example... it
can see into other planes, through illusions, etc... but neither would
affect Psionic Invisibility, which is a limited Mind Control (well, Mental
Illusions in Hero terms).
Donald
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Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 21:59:26 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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At 08:15 PM 2/10/1998 -0500, lowecm@polaris.clarkson.edu wrote:
>> The problem is that if you go with a special effects, rather than game
>> effects, system, you end up with a 10,000 page rulebook. "So, you have
>> desolid bought as 'body of insects', and he has an NND attack bought as
>> 'poison gas'..."
>
>This actually doesn't have anything to do with special effects. This
>is purely game mechanics. But all special effects are limited by the
>game mechanics. Any special effect can be bought within the current
>system if you work with it. It might cost a bit more than you'd like,
>but thats life. It can be built. It doesn't need to have a 10,000
>page rulebook to describe every single possibility, as long as you
>define the special effects.... [snip]
I couldn't agree more! It only takes 400 genre and Ultimate books
averaging 250 pages each. ;-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
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Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:02:41 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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At 09:18 PM 2/10/1998 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> >Example: Megaman has 50% DR due to his tough skin. Vapour attacks him
>> >with a NND gas attack and Megaman's DR is totally bypassed when he
>> >breathes in.
>>
>> thats a nice thought, but not how the power works... NND ignores defenses
>> unless you have the one you need. But Damage Reduction works AFTER your
>> defenses, it reduces the damage you take... NND doesnt affect that, it
seems
>> to me
>
> Quite wrong. NND is affected by SFX, not by Game Effect. In this
>case, unless the SFX of the DR is such to allow stopping a poison gas NND,
>I'd have to say that DR isn't going to be of any help. Of course, to be
>truely invulnerable, you mix those 100% DRs with all of the appropriate
>Life Supports.
Actually I think that Power and Sense Attacks (those affected by Power
Defense and Flash Defense) should get their own category of Damage Reduction.
However, the description of Damage Reduction states that it affects AVLD
and NND attacks -- presumably those which work against the physical body in
the case of PDR, or which work chemically in the case of EDR. (This does
need to be better defined in Hero5.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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From: lowecm@polaris.clarkson.edu
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 09:15:16 -0500 (EST)
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Sakura wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
> > Then tell me, Rat, just how exactly to model a Detect Invisibility
> > type of spell that will expose any invisible creatures. I personally like
> > Spatial Awareness, but . . .
>
> Ranged Targeting Touch? (25 points) (only to detect invisible -?)
> (This begs the question of 'what the heck is 'invisible to touch' and can
> it exist?)
Invisible to touch? Sure it can exist. Basically you meet resistance
if you 'come in contact' with them, but you don't feel it. Its all a
matter of perception.
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 09:39:27 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Subject: Body from Ego Attacks
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Okay, let's suppose that a sample character hasa *very* fragile mind and
can and will take Body damnage from normal Ego Attacks. How is this
bought? Physical Limitation? Susceptability, Vulnerability?
And suggestions would be welcome.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Affects Desolid/Power Defense
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 06:53:50 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> > The only character I've ever seen who had a good SFX for blanket Power
> > Defense (that is, who I *wouldn't* feel comfortable slapping on a
> > Limitation) is Bob Ramsey of the Justifiers (see the PC group on my
> > website). His body instantly adapts and "heals" a portion of whatever
> > alterations are made to it. This is good against disease, magic, molecular
> > transformations, poison, or really anything else.
>
> Hmmm. I've found many "just plain hard to change this guy"
> excuses to work. Regeneration is a good reason to have some Power Def,
> however.
>
Not always. A villian I used last night had barbie doll which
could come to life.
'Barbie' had two powers that the players saw.
1. She had an 11d6 presense attack.
kept yelling out things like
"Hey everybody, let's go shopping."
or
"Wanna play with me and Ken?"
2. 1d6 cumulative transformation, turn people into Barbie/Ken clones.
This power was magical and psychic in nature. It adujusted one's
paradigm of the world and how reality worked from your point of
view. A physical regenerative effect would have been useless on it.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 07:21:10 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Body from Ego Attacks
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At 09:39 AM 2/11/1998 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>Okay, let's suppose that a sample character hasa *very* fragile mind and
>can and will take Body damnage from normal Ego Attacks. How is this
>bought? Physical Limitation? Susceptability, Vulnerability?
>
>And suggestions would be welcome.
Though it takes a house rule to do it, I would model it as a
Vulnerability. Treat it as a 2X Vulnerability, but count the extra damage
as BODY instead of STUN.
I do a similar thing for a darkness-based villain who takes STUN damage
from visual Flash Attacks.
---
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:14:02 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Changing the Standard in 5th (Re: Templates Discussion)
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> > > Then change the standard. We are talking about a forthcoming
> > > editon of the rules. Bump things up to the 300, 350, or 400 point levels.
> > > The system will still be the same, and perhaps we can avoid some
> > > point-saving tricks.
>
> NO! Nononononono!
>
> I've said it before and it bears repeating; 250 points is plenty to
> make a beginning character. Enough for 50-60 AP powers and appropriate
> defense and DEX and SPD and a few points left for background and/or
> support skills. That's enough for beginning players. Since the most
No, the argument is that is _not_ enough for beginning players.
They want to play who they see in comics, movies and cartoons and they
don't want to play no "just starting out" version. When you tell them you
can't run BatMan as is, but can run a very weak version of "beginning
batman" they'll be liable to up and run to another game system . . . or
back to Magic.
Leave 200-250 in there, but call it "apprentice Heroes" and
explain it is something like the novice teams seen in the comics (like
Generation X). But put the main standard where it can actually simulate
the characters that players want to play.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:16:05 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Affects Desolid/Power Defense
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> Not always. A villian I used last night had barbie doll which
> could come to life.
> 'Barbie' had two powers that the players saw.
> 1. She had an 11d6 presense attack.
> kept yelling out things like
> "Hey everybody, let's go shopping."
> or
> "Wanna play with me and Ken?"
Nice, but I'd do a Mind Contrl.
> 2. 1d6 cumulative transformation, turn people into Barbie/Ken clones.
> This power was magical and psychic in nature. It adujusted one's
> paradigm of the world and how reality worked from your point of
> view. A physical regenerative effect would have been useless on it.
True, but many of my "toughness" characters have been mentally
tough as well. In this particular case, the 5 Power Def of Derrik
Tallcloud, a personal favorite character of mine, is still justified. His
spiritual strength is particularly strong, as is his mental strength and
physical toughness.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:30:22 -0600
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: Changing the Standard in 5th (Re: Templates Discussion)
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On 2/11/98, at 10:14 AM, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>> > > Then change the standard. We are talking about a forthcoming
>> > > editon of the rules. Bump things up to the 300, 350, or 400 point levels.
>> > > The system will still be the same, and perhaps we can avoid some
>> > > point-saving tricks.
>>
>> NO! Nononononono!
>>
>> I've said it before and it bears repeating; 250 points is plenty to
>> make a beginning character. Enough for 50-60 AP powers and appropriate
>> defense and DEX and SPD and a few points left for background and/or
>> support skills. That's enough for beginning players. Since the most
>
> No, the argument is that is _not_ enough for beginning players.
>They want to play who they see in comics, movies and cartoons and they
>don't want to play no "just starting out" version. When you tell them you
>can't run BatMan as is, but can run a very weak version of "beginning
>batman" they'll be liable to up and run to another game system . . . or
>back to Magic.
Surely this issue is up to the GM and the world he wants to create? Maybe today's comics are 400-600 points, but I don't read today's comics, and I don't want to run such a campaign. For me, 250 points is a great level for Silver and Golden Age campaigns. In fact, I think that as you increase the power level, you decrease the roleplaying; the game becomes more about the powers, but less about the characters themselves.
Provide for such high levels of power, certainly, since some people will want to play at that level, but don't make them the "standard". In fact, I think there should be some example campaigns examining the features of different power levels.
Guy
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 08:44:34 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Body from Ego Attacks
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---Michael Surbrook wrote:
>
> Okay, let's suppose that a sample character hasa *very* fragile
mind and
> can and will take Body damnage from normal Ego Attacks. How is this
> bought? Physical Limitation? Susceptability, Vulnerability?
Taking damage from things you shouldn't is modeled with Susceptibility
(although I don't really like the way the numbers work for the disad).
But are you sure that it's really the effect you're looking for -
Body from ego attacks does't sound so much like a fragile mind to me
as it does a fragile brain (as in the physical organ, not the center
of self).
> And suggestions would be welcome.
***************************************************************************
> * "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano
Orbatos,Orion *
> * Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net
*
> * Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:
*
> * http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html
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>
>
>
>
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:50:43 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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On 11 Feb 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> If someone has Invisibility to all sense groups, you don't. You cannot,
> because, quite simply, he is invisible to any Detect you can invent.
Of course, Invisibility to all sense groups is going to be pretty rare.
How does one justify Invisibility to the "unusual" sense group?
> If, as the GM, I want "Detect Invisibility" to be a valid power, I would
> not allow "someone" to be Invisible to everything. And I would make sure
> that "someone" knows this at the outset. And I would make sure that the
> "Detect Invisibility" power costs more than the Invisibility it defeats.
?? When did you start advocating that defense should be more expensive
than that against which they defend?
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:52:25 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Body from Ego Attacks
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On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, John Desmarais wrote:
> > Okay, let's suppose that a sample character has a *very* fragile
> mind and
> > can and will take Body damnage from normal Ego Attacks. How is this
> > bought? Physical Limitation? Susceptability, Vulnerability?
>
> Taking damage from things you shouldn't is modeled with Susceptibility
> (although I don't really like the way the numbers work for the disad).
Except that you only really get 3d6 of damage from a Suscept...
> But are you sure that it's really the effect you're looking for -
> Body from ego attacks does't sound so much like a fragile mind to me
> as it does a fragile brain (as in the physical organ, not the center
> of self).
Well, it's not my character, I'm trying to figure out anothers.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 09:39:39 -0800
From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell)
Subject: Re: Changing the Standard in 5th (Re: Templates Discussion)
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-> From ghoyle1@airmail.net Wed Feb 11 08:27:19 1998
-> >back to Magic.
->
-> Surely this issue is up to the GM and the world he wants to create? Maybe today's comics are 400-600 points, but I don't read today's comics, and I don't want to run such a campaign. For me, 250 points is a great level for Silver and Golden Age campaigns. In fact, I think that as you increase the power level, you decrease the roleplaying; the game becomes more about the powers, but less about the characters themselves.
->
-> Provide for such high levels of power, certainly, since some people will want to play at that level, but don't make them the "standard". In fact, I think there should be some example campaigns examining the features of different power levels.
->
"250 points is a great level for Silver and Golden Age campaigns."???
Yeah, right. Pre-Crisis Superman, Flash, Green Lantern, the Spectre, Thor, Silver Surfer,
etc, etc all at 250pts? I'd like to see the write-ups.
The only Golden/Silver Age Teams that could be done on around 250pts are the Starting X-Men,
the Seven Soldiers, and possibly the Invaders (as they actually appeared in the 1940s, not
with their ret-conned level of power. Of course, they never actually existed as the Invaders
in the 1940s, the whole concept is a ret-con (and a good one)).
-Sam
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From: lowecm@polaris.clarkson.edu
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:47:11 -0500 (EST)
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Body from Ego Attacks
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On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> At 09:39 AM 2/11/1998 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> >Okay, let's suppose that a sample character hasa *very* fragile mind and
> >can and will take Body damnage from normal Ego Attacks. How is this
> >bought? Physical Limitation? Susceptability, Vulnerability?
> >
> >And suggestions would be welcome.
>
> Though it takes a house rule to do it, I would model it as a
> Vulnerability. Treat it as a 2X Vulnerability, but count the extra damage
> as BODY instead of STUN.
> I do a similar thing for a darkness-based villain who takes STUN damage
> from visual Flash Attacks.
The STUN damage from Flash attacks would be a Susceptibility (check
the instant effect section), and the Body damage from Ego attacks
would also work as a Susceptibility since, "At the GM's option, the
susceptibility can inflict damage other than STUN. In this case, each
d6 of STUN damage should be replaced with 10 Active Points of another
attack."
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Subject: Re: Body from Ego Attacks
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 98 12:48:47 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
cc: "Hero Games" <champ-l@omg.org>
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On 2/11/98 11:52 AM Michael Surbrook (<susano@access.digex.net>) Said:
>Okay, let's suppose that a sample character has a *very* fragile
>mind and can and will take Body damnage from normal Ego Attacks.
>How is this bought? Physical Limitation? Susceptability, Vulnerability?
>
Try this:
Susceptability: Takes 10 pts worth of HKA (+0, it is a 10 pt power, and
can be used at the GM's option to replace 1d6 of normal Susc., per the
BBB) per Xd6 of Ego Attack Used against him.
This is probably Uncommon (5 Points), and the damage would be assessed
only on the characters phases (again, probably) for a total of 15 points.
20 Pts of HKA Susc. would be a 20 pt disad; 30 Pts of HKA Susc. would be
a 25 pt disad.
The GM should decide what number X will be, but lets say he calls it 4d6.
Then when hit by a 6d6 Ego Attack, the character takes (15-30-45) pts of
HKA, or (1 d6 Killing - 2d6 Killing - 3d6 Killing), depending on the
level of Susc. he bought.
I have used a similar construct (a character that suffered an EGO drain
whenever he was hit by an entangle or was restrained) and it seemed to be
about the right point/effect level, though the GM could tailor it either
way, I suppose.
David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:21:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Changing the Standard in 5th (Re: Templates Discussion)
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Sam Bell writes:
> Yeah, right. Pre-Crisis Superman, Flash, Green Lantern, the Spectre, Thor,
> Silver Surfer, etc, etc all at 250pts? I'd like to see the write-ups.
>
> The only Golden/Silver Age Teams that could be done on around 250pts are
> the Starting X-Men, the Seven Soldiers, and possibly the Invaders (as they
> actually appeared in the 1940s, not with their ret-conned level of power. Of
> course, they never actually existed as the Invaders in the 1940s, the whole
> concept is a ret-con (and a good one)).
Pff...I could do quite a lot of starting characters on 250 -- assuming that you
only give them the abilities which they showed evidence of, not the abilities
which only appeared later, but were retconned as having always been there. I
mean, the original superman (from the 30s, that is) might be doable on 250
points, though he hardly is now. Almost all of the early marvel characters
(FF, spiderman, hulk, iron man, thor) _when they started_ could be done on 250
points. That said, experienced characters in the golden/silver age really
weren't any less powerful than comic-book characters today, and were sometimes
more powerful -- unlike champions, comic-book characters tend to grow extremely
rapidly at first, and then slow down.
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:24:35 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Changing the Standard in 5th (Re: Templates Discussion)
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At 10:14 AM 2/11/98 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> No, the argument is that is _not_ enough for beginning players.
>They want to play who they see in comics, movies and cartoons and they
>don't want to play no "just starting out" version. When you tell them you
>can't run BatMan as is, but can run a very weak version of "beginning
>batman" they'll be liable to up and run to another game system . . . or
>back to Magic.
>
Pandering to munchkins is no way to run a system.
Look. Power is all relative. So if you up the base hero to 400 points, then
Joe Viper Agent will be at 200 points, and Larry The Mugger will be at 100
points. It's like multiplying the score at a pinball game by ten without
changing gameplay at all. A bumper which once gave 10 points now gives 100,
then 1000 -- but it's the same relative to your final score.
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:38:00 -0600
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
Subject: Fwd: Re: Changing the Standard in 5th (Re: Templates
Discussion)
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On 2/11/98, at 11:47 AM, Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM <Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM> wrote:
>"250 points is a great level for Silver and Golden Age campaigns."???
>
>Yeah, right. Pre-Crisis Superman, Flash, Green Lantern, the Spectre, Thor, Silver Surfer,
>etc, etc all at 250pts? I'd like to see the write-ups.
That's a straw-man argument, Sam; you've picked some of the most powerful characters of their respective universes, who out-power most of their colleagues. Sure, they're built on more than 250 points. However much I enjoy the writeups you post, I would not want to allow these characters into any campaign I wanted to run. The dynamics of a comic book are far, far different from the dynamics of an RPG.
If a player wanted to run "Superman" in a game I was running, I'd tell the player to pick the essential aspects of the character he wanted to portray. If I was doing it, I'd buy STR, high defenses, and flight; if I could afford it, I'd buy some enhanced senses, Xray vision, etc. I wouldn't concern myself with duplicating Superman's exact stats, especially since those vary so much from writer to writer. I'd be more concerned about Superman's ability to function within the predefined scope of the campaign. Besdies, with Superman, the personality is much more important than the powers.
However, I've had a great deal of fun adapting such characters to different power levels. You can capture some of the spirit of such characters without recreating every detail. I've even adapted some of your JSA writeups to my non-superheroic pulp campaign as a villain organization; there's "the strongest man on earth" (who tops out at about a 30 STR), the "Fastest Man Alive" (who has about a 30" run when he goes all out, burning a horrendous amount of END), a man with a magic ring that obeys his mental commands, a man with some homemade wings he uses to glide about, a female Martial artist with a patriotic bent from a lost civilization of women, etc. (Note to my players: I'm changing all the details for the Odysseus League, gang!)
Common problems need Uncommon Solutions!
http://www.uncommonsolutions.com
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:57:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Dennis C Hwang <dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Lizard wrote:
> At 06:35 PM 2/10/98 -0500, lowecm@polaris.clarkson.edu wrote:
>
> >Actually no, DR does reduce NND, unless you limit it specifically. As
> >it says, "Normal Damage Reduction acts against normal, AVLD, and NND
> >attacks. Resistant Damage Reduction affects normal, AVLD, NND, and
> >Killing Attacks."
> >
> >
> Hmmm...I'd like to know how Grasp (75% rDR, Physical) avoids the damage of
> poison gas by virtue of his flexible body...
Maybe the poison gas is bought as an EB, NND, vs. ED?
> The problem is that if you go with a special effects, rather than game
> effects, system, you end up with a 10,000 page rulebook. "So, you have
> desolid bought as 'body of insects', and he has an NND attack bought as
> 'poison gas'..."
Hmmm...what about Shape Shift "Only to simulate teammate's cape" vs. plain
old Instant Change? ;)
--Dennis
*************************************************************
* dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu * xenopathologist at large! *
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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>>>>> "l" == lowecm <lowecm@polaris.clarkson.edu> writes:
l> Invisible to touch? Sure it can exist.
Except that it cannot exist as a game mechanic because there is no "touch"
sense group.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
TRG> Then tell me, Rat, just how exactly to model a Detect Invisibility
TRG> type of spell that will expose any invisible creatures. I personally
TRG> like Spatial Awareness, but . . .
If someone has Invisibility to all sense groups, you don't. You cannot,
because, quite simply, he is invisible to any Detect you can invent.
If, as the GM, I want "Detect Invisibility" to be a valid power, I would
not allow "someone" to be Invisible to everything. And I would make sure
that "someone" knows this at the outset. And I would make sure that the
"Detect Invisibility" power costs more than the Invisibility it defeats.
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 13:40:52 -0600
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: Changing the Standard in 5th (Re: Templates Discussion)
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On 2/10/98, at 9:52 AM, Brian Wong wrote:
> I would love to see 5th have a standard which allows for more
>background skill points. I could care less about it's power level. But
>not having as much background in my CHampions characters as I do in my
>Fantasy Hero characters has always bugged me.
Remember, of course, that your FH character does NOT have to pay points for weapons, vehicles, bases, etc.; he can use those points on background skills.
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 13:47:30 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Affects Desolid/Power Defense
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On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
> > Not always. A villian I used last night had barbie doll which
> > could come to life.
> > 'Barbie' had two powers that the players saw.
> > 1. She had an 11d6 presense attack.
> > kept yelling out things like
> > "Hey everybody, let's go shopping."
> > or
> > "Wanna play with me and Ken?"
>
> Nice, but I'd do a Mind Contrl.
Nah... Presence Attack sounds about right...
Barbie: "Hey everybody, let's go shopping!"
Mr. Doombringer: [takes one look at her, and curles up into a fetal
position]...
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
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submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 13:53:41 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Changing the Standard in 5th (Re: Templates Discussion)
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On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Lizard wrote:
> At 10:14 AM 2/11/98 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
> > No, the argument is that is _not_ enough for beginning players.
> >They want to play who they see in comics, movies and cartoons and they
> >don't want to play no "just starting out" version. When you tell them you
> >can't run BatMan as is, but can run a very weak version of "beginning
> >batman" they'll be liable to up and run to another game system . . . or
> >back to Magic.
> >
> Pandering to munchkins is no way to run a system.
Just because they happen to want to play their favorite comic book
character (who happens to need more than 250 points to build), that
doesn't mean that they are munchkins... Come on, now! Give them the
benefit of the doubt, at least...
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
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submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:05:25 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Changing the Standard in 5th (Re: Templates Discussion)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 01:53 PM 2/11/98 -0600, Dataweaver wrote:
>On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Lizard wrote:
>
>> At 10:14 AM 2/11/98 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>>
>> > No, the argument is that is _not_ enough for beginning players.
>> >They want to play who they see in comics, movies and cartoons and they
>> >don't want to play no "just starting out" version. When you tell them you
>> >can't run BatMan as is, but can run a very weak version of "beginning
>> >batman" they'll be liable to up and run to another game system . . . or
>> >back to Magic.
>> >
>> Pandering to munchkins is no way to run a system.
>
>Just because they happen to want to play their favorite comic book
>character (who happens to need more than 250 points to build), that
>doesn't mean that they are munchkins... Come on, now! Give them the
>benefit of the doubt, at least...
I'm sorry, but, to me, it would be like TSR starting every character at
10th level because "No one wants to play a young Conan or an inexperienced
Elric". [1]Characters in comic books never lose -- characters in RPG often
do, at least temporarily. Give someone enough points to play Batman, and he
still won't be happy when his Batarang misses the Joker (who will have to
be built on equivalently high points) because "Batman never misses!".
Point inflation never stops. As I noted earlier, going to a 250 point base
didn't lead to more well-rounded character -- just ones with 50 points more
in energy blast or force field.
If you must go this route, I recommend several 'starting power levels' be
given, with notes on what this will mean. And especially, set limits on
active points in individual powers, REGARDLESS of the total point
cap...most heroes have a diverse range of powers, not one
mega-death-overkill-blast. (Of course, the limits are guidelines for the
players and GMs, not absolutes, but you get the idea...)
I must be weird...I often have trouble 'using up' my 250 points... :)
[1]I believe Dark Sun did something very like this...
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Changing the Standard in 5th (Re: Templates Discussion)
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>>>>> "BW" == Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> writes:
BW> I would love to see 5th have a standard which allows for more
BW> background skill points.
Um... if you don't have enough then you aren't building your characters
"right". A 250-point character built as a 200-point "collection of powers"
will have 50 points to spend on whatever else you want.
If you don't think a 200-point, two-dimensional character is viable, you
don't understand the system as well as you think. 200 points is 125 points
worth of characteristics and 75 points in powers or combat skills for
characteristics-based characters such as bricks and martial artists, or 100
points worth of characteristics and 100 points for powers for powers-based
characters. 75 points, plenty to buy a complete martial arts package and
the supporting skills and some other extras, or a collection of "brick
powers". 100 points, plenty for a 75-point Multipower, or a 60-point
Elemental Control with a -1/2 Limitation.
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 14:36:01 -0600 (CST)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
Reply-To: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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On 11 Feb 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> >>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
>
> TRG> Then tell me, Rat, just how exactly to model a Detect Invisibility
> TRG> type of spell that will expose any invisible creatures. I personally
> TRG> like Spatial Awareness, but . . .
>
> If someone has Invisibility to all sense groups, you don't. You cannot,
> because, quite simply, he is invisible to any Detect you can invent.
>
> If, as the GM, I want "Detect Invisibility" to be a valid power, I would
> not allow "someone" to be Invisible to everything. And I would make sure
> that "someone" knows this at the outset. And I would make sure that the
> "Detect Invisibility" power costs more than the Invisibility it defeats.
Hmm. Unfortunately, this doesn't hold up to the standard 'attack/defense'
cost comparison (mostly because it's not an attack vs defense thing) - and
I think that invisibility should definitely cost more than the Detect,
because it's much more useful.
Alternately, one could look on the Invisibility as the 'attack' (it's the
'active' power) while the Detect is the defense (since all it basically
does is defend against Invisibility).
- J
P.S. For sheer BS value on the Detect Invisible, how about 'Detect Air,
Ranged, Discriminatory, Targeting' - since you're not actually detecting
the invisible person, their invisibility does them no good. You're
detecting the air around them (and seeing where that air isn't).
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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Date: 11 Feb 1998 16:10:47 -0500
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>>>>> "S" == Sakura <jeffj@io.com> writes:
S> Alternately, one could look on the Invisibility as the 'attack' (it's
S> the 'active' power) while the Detect is the defense (since all it
S> basically does is defend against Invisibility).
This gets back to philosophy, "internal" vs. "external". Invisibility
affects oneself; Detect affects another. Detect Invisibility does not
defend against Invisibility, it attempts to find it.
S> - J
S> P.S. For sheer BS value on the Detect Invisible, how about 'Detect Air,
S> Ranged, Discriminatory, Targeting' - since you're not actually detecting
S> the invisible person, their invisibility does them no good. You're
S> detecting the air around them (and seeing where that air isn't).
You see the air adjacent to your sensory aparati, preventing you from
perceiving anything beyond. :)
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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>>>>> "TB" == Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> writes:
TB> Of course, Invisibility to all sense groups is going to be pretty rare.
TB> How does one justify Invisibility to the "unusual" sense group?
Simply covering all the bases, as it were.
[...]
TB> ?? When did you start advocating that defense should be more expensive
TB> than that against which they defend?
Detects are not "defenses", they are "attacks" inasmuch as they attempt to
find something. See my just posted message on this.
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:33:13 -0500 (EST)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Changing the Standard in 5th (Re: Templates Discussion)
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>Point inflation never stops. As I noted earlier, going to a 250 point base
>didn't lead to more well-rounded character -- just ones with 50 points more
>in energy blast or force field.
True, true. But I've found that building something like a mage (who will
have a lot of points sunk into knowledge skills) just isn't workable on 250
points. You either end up with somebody who doesn't look like a mage
(Solitarie), or is pathetically powered (30-40 AP powers), or stat-pathetic
(15 DEX, 3 SPD). Mind you, it's possible on 300 points.
I've encountered the same thing with respect to 'properly' Telepathic
characters. At 250 points, they're hard to build in a satisfactory fashion,
but at 300 points it's not a problem. And note these examples aren't
overwhelming.
I'd vote for moving the benchmark to 150+150 disads. As long as you keep the
Active Point limits and Damage Classes the same, it should be allright.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"And go on to rule this world from beyond the grave."
"Indeed!"
"That, or check into a mental hospital; whatever comes first."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 13:33:58 -0800
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com>
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com
Organization: None
Subject: Ye GODS........!!!
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I am considering running a "Godling" campain. Players would create new
gods from whatever mythology they choose. Power levels have yet to be
determined. Anyway, my question is: I want to create a Potential Mega
Villain on mount olympus. A new baby god was just delivered unto Zeus
and Hera (during a rare fit compatability). Being the proud papa that he
is, Zues demands a "gift" from each of the major gods of the pantheon.
Some are easy
Hercules: Great Strength
Hermes: Great Speed
others are not so easy,
what would you think that Artemis would give the child? or Posidon? I
suppose Hephestus might give him/her a weapon and Athena and Ares could
pony up tactical sense and "wisdom" and such, but I was wondering if you
guys had any ideas.
thanks
Chad
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "Hero System Mailing List" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 98 21:34:29
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Fantasy Hero: Bless spell?
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On Tue, 10 Feb 1998 15:37:05 -0800, Richard G Schwerdtfeger wrote:
>I would definitely apply the selective in there, as well as Gestures,
>Incant, etc.
>
>My main question about this is: Can you just Aid CSLs? Or perhaps in
>the case of a fumble-type spell, Aid everyone's DCV and call it "people
>can't fight as well as they normally could"?
DEX Aid, Only for DCV (-1).
Check out past issues of Adventurers Club for better insights.
But have you considered straying slightly from the Vancian system? A
priest ought not to have a rack of spells to start with, more he should
be able to call upon his deity at will. There's an excellent article in
AC on this.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 98 21:36:29
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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On Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:02:52 -0600 (CST), Dataweaver wrote:
>> Sorry, but DR is a defense, so NND bypasses it (SFX excepting).
>
>Where does it say that DR is a defense? Certainly not in the write-up of
>DR itself, which tends to imply exactly the opposite (that DR isn't a
>defense). Also, it explicitly says "Normal Damage Reduction acts against
>normal, AVLD, and NND attacks. Resistant Damage Reduction acts against
>normal, AVLD, NND, and Killing Attacks."
Sh*t! You're right - my apologies.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 14:07:42 -0800
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On Tuesday, February 10, 1998 1:19 PM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes:
>
>q> Assuming a Magic base, I've done this by using the Armour Piercing
>q> advantage.
>
>Ummm... so tell me, then, what defense is being halved?
This is no different than using Armor Piercing on Teleportation, to
allow it to Teleport through Hardened defenses.
Granted, I never liked that rule, but it is the rule. The above is a
very similar application.
>And I still have problems with this. Invisibility is moderately
costly, 40
>points for a significant degree of effect. "Detect Invisibility"
with a
>few features and AP is 10-20 points. You have created an "offense"
that is
>half the cost of the "defense". This is backwards; in Hero, defenses
cost
>less.
Or, alternately, you could consider Invisibility to be an "offense",
and the Detect the "defense". Defenses are used to negate advantages
created by another power. This Detect would be defensive.
>If I were in your game and got tagged by this, I'd bitch to no end
about
>it.
I will make no further comment.:)
Filksinger
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 14:19:59 -0800
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On Tuesday, February 10, 1998 2:43 PM, Christopher Taylor wrote:
<snip>
>>Sorry, but DR is a defense, so NND bypasses it (SFX excepting).
>>
>>Example: Megaman has 50% DR due to his tough skin. Vapour attacks
him
>>with a NND gas attack and Megaman's DR is totally bypassed when he
>>breathes in.
>
>thats a nice thought, but not how the power works... NND ignores
defenses
>unless you have the one you need. But Damage Reduction works AFTER
your
>defenses, it reduces the damage you take... NND doesnt affect that,
it seems
>to me
>
It is stated in the last paragraph of Damage Reduction that "a
character with 50% Resistant Physical Damage Reduction has spent an
extra 30 pts. on his physical defense." Furthermore, Damage Reduction
is repeatedly described as being a defense. Thus, NND, which bypasses
defenses, bypasses Damage Reduction.
If you want to defend against NND, buy extra STUN or BODY.
Filksinger
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From: lowecm@polaris.clarkson.edu
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:23:46 -0500 (EST)
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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On 11 Feb 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> >>>>> "S" == Sakura <jeffj@io.com> writes:
>
> S> Alternately, one could look on the Invisibility as the 'attack' (it's
> S> the 'active' power) while the Detect is the defense (since all it
> S> basically does is defend against Invisibility).
>
> This gets back to philosophy, "internal" vs. "external". Invisibility
> affects oneself; Detect affects another. Detect Invisibility does not
> defend against Invisibility, it attempts to find it.
Well to look at it another way, detect affects your own perceptions,
while invisibility affects other people's perceptions.
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:26:13 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Changing the Standard in 5th (Re: Templates Discussion)
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On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Lizard wrote:
> > No, the argument is that is _not_ enough for beginning players.
> >They want to play who they see in comics, movies and cartoons and they
> >don't want to play no "just starting out" version. When you tell them you
> >can't run BatMan as is, but can run a very weak version of "beginning
> >batman" they'll be liable to up and run to another game system . . . or
> >back to Magic.
> Pandering to munchkins is no way to run a system.
Not this nonsense again. A high power level game is not even vaguely
equatable to munchkinism. (And given that we're talking about upping the
point totals to match _average_ super-heroes, we're not even talking
about high power levels.)
> Look. Power is all relative. So if you up the base hero to 400 points, then
> Joe Viper Agent will be at 200 points, and Larry The Mugger will be at 100
> points.
This is a rather bizarre non-sequitur. How does that follow?
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:28:07 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Changing the Standard in 5th (Re: Templates Discussion)
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On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Sam Bell wrote:
> "250 points is a great level for Silver and Golden Age campaigns."???
Take out the Silver Age part and he's right. Have you read the description
of Superman's abilities from his first appearance? They're pretty mediocre
by today's standards, and downright wimpy by Silver Age standards.
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:29:28 -0600 (CST)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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On 11 Feb 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> >>>>> "l" == lowecm <lowecm@polaris.clarkson.edu> writes:
>
> l> Invisible to touch? Sure it can exist.
>
> Except that it cannot exist as a game mechanic because there is no "touch"
> sense group.
There's a 'touch' sense, though. One could have a flash vs. touch (causes
numbness). Actually, there's probably a 'touch' sense group as well (even
if it's not specified) including things like:
Normal Touch
'Super-Touch' - like Daredevil has, able to read text by the tiny ridges
that the ink has made on the paper
Whiskers - whatever the power definition is, they're definitely under
'touch'
I guess something that's 'invisible to touch' would be present, but you
wouldn't be able to sense it - if you tried to move your hand through it,
it would feel like your hand stopped for no reason. You wouldn't be able
to get a sense of how hot it was, what it was made of, or how heavy it
was, even if you were holding it in your hand.
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:30:23 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Changing the Standard in 5th (Re: Templates Discussion)
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On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Lizard wrote:
> The 'background skills' problem is best solved by stealing a page from
> Fuzion and having a small 'reserve set' of points for skills, knowledges,
> etc. Simply adding more points won't cut it, because when the 'baseline'
> went from 100+100 to 100+150, the result was character with 50 points more
> in EB or Armor or Flight -- not characters with 50 points of background
> skills.
When did that happen, exactly? 4th Edition uses 100 base points plus up
to 150 Disads; 3rd Edition used 100 base points plus however many Disads
you wanted. (I don't have the book immediately handy, but as I recall the
average total cost of the sample characters was around 280.)
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:30:46 -0600
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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>On 11 Feb 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
>> If someone has Invisibility to all sense groups, you don't. You cannot,
>> because, quite simply, he is invisible to any Detect you can invent.
Oh, come on! There are no absolutes in Champions. Having a spell or ability to detect objects which are otherwise invisible to all senses is a staple in many genres.
Common problems need Uncommon Solutions!
http://www.uncommonsolutions.com
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:31:22 -0500
From: TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net>
Subject: Re: Ye GODS........!!!
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At 01:33 PM 2/11/98 -0800, Chad Riley wrote:
>I am considering running a "Godling" campain. Players would create new
>gods from whatever mythology they choose. Power levels have yet to be
>determined. Anyway, my question is: I want to create a Potential Mega
>Villain on mount olympus. A new baby god was just delivered unto Zeus
>and Hera (during a rare fit compatability). Being the proud papa that he
>is, Zues demands a "gift" from each of the major gods of the pantheon.
>
>Some are easy
>Hercules: Great Strength
>Hermes: Great Speed
Poseidon: Limited control of the sea and it's weather.
Hades: I'm drawing a blank here except for being able to occasionally
bring someone back to life.
Apollo: The ability to heal and even raise the recently dead.
Artemis: Supreme Hunting/Tracking skills
Aphrodite: Beauty.
Ares: Supreme fighting skills.
Athena: Wisdom/Tactical Skill.
Hephaestus: A full set of divine weapons and armor.
Hermes: Speed is an obvious one, but thiefly skill and cunning is fun.
>From lesser or demi-gods.
Dionysus: The ability to inspire followers to berserk frenzies.
Heracles: Strength
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:32:01 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: SuperHero World & Effects Of Powers
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On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, David Fair wrote:
> In a world where super-beings exist, and many (if not most or all) keep
> their identities secret, what type of technologies would develop to
> identify specific paranormal power uses?
>
> In other words, would the authorities have a way of examining a blast
> scorch mark after a superbattle, and, based on data recovered from after
> other battles, figuring out that the user of the blast was none other the
> the nefarious Dr. Mean?
Based on Thunderbolts, which you mention, there definitely doesn't seem
to be any such thing in the Marvel U. It's not a bad idea, though.
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:32:12 -0600 (CST)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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On 11 Feb 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> S> P.S. For sheer BS value on the Detect Invisible, how about 'Detect Air,
> S> Ranged, Discriminatory, Targeting' - since you're not actually detecting
> S> the invisible person, their invisibility does them no good. You're
> S> detecting the air around them (and seeing where that air isn't).
>
> You see the air adjacent to your sensory aparati, preventing you from
> perceiving anything beyond. :)
That's why there's the 'ranged' on that power. If one person is standing
five feet from you and talking, and another standing behind him, five feet
further on, you can hear both of them. This would be similar.
J
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:33:06 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)
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On Mon, 9 Feb 1998, qts wrote:
> But part of the Deflection is that the effect goes *somewhere*,
It may or may not, depending on the special effects of the Deflection.
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 14:33:41 -0800
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On Tuesday, February 10, 1998 3:23 PM, lowecm@polaris.clarkson.edu
wrote:
<snip>
>
>Actually no, DR does reduce NND, unless you limit it specifically.
As
>it says, "Normal Damage Reduction acts against normal, AVLD, and NND
>attacks. Resistant Damage Reduction affects normal, AVLD, NND, and
>Killing Attacks."
Oops.
That said, that is, IMHO, a stupid rule. If I buy an NND attack that
is gas, is that physical or energy?
I can think of attacks that are physical and NND (nerve strike),
energy and NND (ultra-high voltage taser), or none of the above and
NND (gas attack). I cannot think of a Mental attack that I think
deserves NND, and I can think of ten times as many effects that are
energy or none of the above as I can physical. This gives added
utility to energy Damage Reduction over the others, for the same
price.
Filksinger
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:34:36 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Side Effects and Requires Skill Roll
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On Sun, 8 Feb 1998, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
> >6 Body is healed in a minute or two? That would be the average damage
> >from a 6d6 EB, as the character has *NO* defenses...
>
> Well, normally no. But in most games, except realistic modern or earlier,
> most player groups have a healer who will heal the 6 BODY within a minute
> of the combat.
I've played a little Fantasy Hero and a lot of Champions, and I've never
seen a single player group who had any sort of "healer".
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 14:36:05 -0800
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On Tuesday, February 10, 1998 3:31 PM, Dataweaver wrote:
>On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> "Christopher
Taylor" wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 09 Feb 1998 17:24:38 -0800, Christopher Taylor wrote:
>>
>> >>>No because NNDs are reduced by Damage Reduction too, a dirty
little secret
>> >>>of the game... DR 'targets' the power used, not the advantage...
>> >>
>> >>Nothing in the description of DR indicates this.
>> >
>> >No, but it doesnt need to. Damage Reduction affects the damage
done after
>> >defenses... NND ignores defenses, it doesnt change the attack any,
its still
>> >an energy blast... so NND ignores your defenses, the dice are
rolled, you
>> >apply the damage reduction to the damage, like any other attack.
>>
>> Sorry, but DR is a defense, so NND bypasses it (SFX excepting).
>
>Where does it say that DR is a defense? Certainly not in the
write-up of
>DR itself, which tends to imply exactly the opposite (that DR isn't a
>defense).
Last paragraph of DR. States clearly that Physical Resistant Damage
Resistance is a physical defense.
>Also, it explicitly says "Normal Damage Reduction acts against
>normal, AVLD, and NND attacks. Resistant Damage Reduction acts
against
>normal, AVLD, NND, and Killing Attacks."
Oops. I think this is a really stupid rule, but it is there.
Filksinger
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:36:53 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: STR and PRE was Point Crocks?????
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On Sun, 8 Feb 1998, Remnant wrote:
> >So your contention is that nobody in the REAL world is ever significantly
> >stronger than they look? I can't say that that seems to be a very credible
> >stance to me.
>
> If you will reread the quote that you included (see above) you will note the
> word generally.
And if you remember the entire context, you claimed that the muscular
appearance brought on by a high STR could be considered a disadvantage
of STR, a statement which becomes nonsensical once it's conceded that
high strength isn't _necessarily_ visible in this manner.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Changing the Standard in 5th (Re: Templates Discussion)
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>>>>> "JaRP" == John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net> writes:
JaRP> True, true. But I've found that building something like a mage (who
JaRP> will have a lot of points sunk into knowledge skills) just isn't
JaRP> workable on 250 points.
The problem here is not the lack of points, it is the plethora of skills
that are useless within the context of the game. Yes, I harp on the fact
that if you did not pay the points for a thing you do not have that thing.
But the other side of that coin is, why should you pay for something you
never use?
I mean, sure, it may be neat that you know the name of every major denizen
of Hell and most of the minor ones. Unless you have routine need of this
information there is no need to waste 3 points (INT-based) on a Knowledge
Skill: Denizens of Hell. This kind of background information can and
should be handwaved as background information. If for some reason it
becomes foreground information and will remain that way, the GM should
either allow the player to spend some banked experience points on the
relevant skill, or dedicate the character's next few XP to buying it.
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:38:09 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: In support of 'Advantage
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On Sat, 7 Feb 1998, Rook wrote:
> Well, I posted one about a week ago:
> Advantaged:
> If no other reasonable method can be found to construct an effect,
That right there says that the Advantage will never be used.
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:41:41 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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On Fri, 6 Feb 1998, Brian Wong wrote:
> Yeah. I sent along such an idea in my questionaire for adjustment
> powers. Suggesting that the default setting be pick a special effect, and
> picking a single power despite special effect be the one that is an advantage.
I'm not convinced that the latter needs to be allowed at all, personally.
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Affects Desolid/Power Defense
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 14:45:47 -0800
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On Tuesday, February 10, 1998 2:43 PM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
<snip>
>
> The only character I've ever seen who had a good SFX for blanket
Power
>Defense (that is, who I *wouldn't* feel comfortable slapping on a
>Limitation) is Bob Ramsey of the Justifiers (see the PC group on my
>website). His body instantly adapts and "heals" a portion of
whatever
>alterations are made to it. This is good against disease, magic,
molecular
>transformations, poison, or really anything else.
I can think of several, but have never needed them. "Mages protect
themselves with a variety of spells designed to counteract numerous
effects. Rather than create a long list that boils down to Power
Defense, just give it to me." "I have nanotech machines in my body
that fight against such effects, and work to reverse them." "I am a
robot, and thus effectively immune to most effects that work on
humans." "My body is mystically resistant to change. This is why I am
nearly indestructible and do not age." "I am a vampire." "I am a
spirit in human form." "The flexible cosmic energy that gives me my
VPP can be adjusted to defend against a wide ability of effects."
Not hard. However, most characters are "none of the above".
Filksinger
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 14:49:45 -0800
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On Tuesday, February 10, 1998 10:10 PM, Bob Greenwade:
>At 08:15 PM 2/10/1998 -0500, lowecm@polaris.clarkson.edu wrote:
<snip>
>It doesn't need to have a 10,000
>>page rulebook to describe every single possibility, as long as you
>>define the special effects.... [snip]
>
> I couldn't agree more! It only takes 400 genre and Ultimate books
>averaging 250 pages each. ;-]
It doesn't take 10,000 pages, it takes 100,000?<g>
Filksinger
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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>>>>> "GH" == Guy Hoyle <ghoyle1@airmail.net> writes:
>>> If someone has Invisibility to all sense groups, you don't. You cannot,
>>> because, quite simply, he is invisible to any Detect you can invent.
GH> Oh, come on! There are no absolutes in Champions.
Which is why, as a GM, I would not allow Invisibility to everything without
an SFX-based "flaw". But the fact remains that a character with
Invisibility to the "other" sense group, which includes all Detects, cannot
be perceived with a Detect.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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>>>>> "S" == Sakura <jeffj@io.com> writes:
S> There's a 'touch' sense, though.
There is no touch sense/sense group in Champions.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes:
q> Sh*t! You're right - my apologies.
And some circumstantial evidence that Damage Reduction is not a defense,
per se. Put it in a Focus. :)
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:05:04 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Ye GODS........!!!
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Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com> wrote:
> A new baby god was just delivered unto Zeus
> and Hera (during a rare fit compatability). Being the proud papa that he
> is, Zues demands a "gift" from each of the major gods of the pantheon.
>
> Some are easy
> Hercules: Great Strength
> Hermes: Great Speed
>
> others are not so easy,
> what would you think that Artemis would give the child? or Posidon? I
>
Artemis was Goddess of the Hunt, right ? Maybe some kind of super-hunting
ability, or the ability to turn into some kind of predatory animal.
Or talk to and/or control them.
For Poseidon, how about breathe water and/or swimming ability. Or the ability
to turn into some kind of aquatic animal. Or talk to and/or control them.
I agree that Hephaestus should probably provide some kind of 'gadget', weapon
or armor.
Random musings: Sounds like an interesting game. I'd like to hear more about
it. Wasn't there a Hero supplement for playing in the world of Greek mythology ? I don't know that I'd classify Hercules as a 'major' god. Is the baby going
to turn out to be the mega-villain ? This reminds me of Captain Marvel...
Curt
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From: Miq Millman <miq@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:11:07 -0800 (PST)
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Guy Hoyle says:
>
> >On 11 Feb 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> >
> >> If someone has Invisibility to all sense groups, you don't. You cannot,
> >> because, quite simply, he is invisible to any Detect you can invent.
>
> Oh, come on! There are no absolutes in Champions. Having a spell or=
> ability to detect objects which are otherwise invisible to all senses is a=
> staple in many genres.
And yet you are one of the folks that perceives spending 120 points on
damage reduction gains you 100%? That seems pretty absolute to me.
--
__
Miq Millman miq@teleport.com
Tualatin, OR
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:18:58 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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At 02:34 PM 2/11/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "l" == lowecm <lowecm@polaris.clarkson.edu> writes:
>
>l> Invisible to touch? Sure it can exist.
>
>Except that it cannot exist as a game mechanic because there is no "touch"
>sense group.
Do you know this for certain? I think there's enough desire for one
that it shouldn't be omitted, and Steve's already written up a pretty good
piece of text detailing how it can happen.
---
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:26:55 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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At 02:39 PM 2/11/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>If, as the GM, I want "Detect Invisibility" to be a valid power, I would
>not allow "someone" to be Invisible to everything. And I would make sure
>that "someone" knows this at the outset. And I would make sure that the
>"Detect Invisibility" power costs more than the Invisibility it defeats.
Hm. I don't think that sense/invisibility has the same relationship as
attack/defense. If it did, then Radar wouldn't cost 15 points while
Invisibility to Radar cost 20. (Or is that another Hero point crock in
your opinion?)
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:29:39 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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At 04:10 PM 2/11/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>S> P.S. For sheer BS value on the Detect Invisible, how about 'Detect Air,
>S> Ranged, Discriminatory, Targeting' - since you're not actually detecting
>S> the invisible person, their invisibility does them no good. You're
>S> detecting the air around them (and seeing where that air isn't).
>
>You see the air adjacent to your sensory aparati, preventing you from
>perceiving anything beyond. :)
Not if it's Ranged.
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:33:27 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Body from Ego Attacks
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At 12:47 PM 2/11/1998 -0500, lowecm@polaris.clarkson.edu wrote:
>On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>> At 09:39 AM 2/11/1998 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>> >Okay, let's suppose that a sample character hasa *very* fragile mind and
>> >can and will take Body damnage from normal Ego Attacks. How is this
>> >bought? Physical Limitation? Susceptability, Vulnerability?
>> >
>> >And suggestions would be welcome.
>>
>> Though it takes a house rule to do it, I would model it as a
>> Vulnerability. Treat it as a 2X Vulnerability, but count the extra damage
>> as BODY instead of STUN.
>> I do a similar thing for a darkness-based villain who takes STUN damage
>> from visual Flash Attacks.
>
>The STUN damage from Flash attacks would be a Susceptibility (check
>the instant effect section), and the Body damage from Ego attacks
>would also work as a Susceptibility since, "At the GM's option, the
>susceptibility can inflict damage other than STUN. In this case, each
>d6 of STUN damage should be replaced with 10 Active Points of another
>attack."
Okay... So how do I get the number of dice in the Susceptibility to
always match the number of dice in the attack?
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:45:02 -0600
From: Henry Faust <drfaust@sprynet.com>
Subject: RE:ye godd!!!
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>Random musings: Sounds like an interesting game. I'd like to hear more about
>it. Wasn't there a Hero supplement for playing in the world of Greek mythology
>? I don't know that I'd classify Hercules as a 'major' god. Is the baby going
>to turn out to be the mega-villain ? This reminds me of Captain Marvel...
>
>Curt
Actually there were 2, one was for champions in which the 'gods' were just
aliens( i dont have that one). The other was along the lines of fantasy hero
(also made for RoleMaster). I have this one. Herc only has a 40 str. for
instance. Let me know if you want any more info on it.
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:45:17 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Ye GODS........!!!
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At 01:33 PM 2/11/1998 -0800, Chad Riley wrote:
>I am considering running a "Godling" campain. Players would create new
>gods from whatever mythology they choose. Power levels have yet to be
>determined. Anyway, my question is: I want to create a Potential Mega
>Villain on mount olympus. A new baby god was just delivered unto Zeus
>and Hera (during a rare fit compatability). Being the proud papa that he
>is, Zues demands a "gift" from each of the major gods of the pantheon.
Hm. Interesting concept. :-]
>Some are easy
>Hercules: Great Strength
>Hermes: Great Speed
>
>others are not so easy,
>what would you think that Artemis would give the child? or Posidon? I
>suppose Hephestus might give him/her a weapon and Athena and Ares could
>pony up tactical sense and "wisdom" and such, but I was wondering if you
>guys had any ideas.
Well, going through my copy of The Olympians (which, though
well-written, has been absolutely useless to me until now -- and which I
hope you're using):
Aphrodite: Looks to die for
Apollo: "Solar flares" (flames from the eyes when in direct sunlight)
Ares: about +6 Combat Skill Levels with all combat, which cost END
Artemis: a sort of psychic Tracking Scent (Mind Scan, perhaps?)
Athena: Analyze Style, Deduction, and Tactics, and +5 Skill Levels with
all three
Demeter: Precognition to know the weather
Dionysus: Immunity to alcohol (and other drugs and poisons as well)
Hades: the ability to Summon the shade of a dead warrior once a day
Hephastus: Immunity to temperature extremes, and one heckuva hammer
Hermes: Great speed
Poseidon: Ability to breathe and freely move underwater
Those are just the major ones. Want more?
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:46:27 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Detect Invisiblity
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On 11 Feb 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> >>>>> "TB" == Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> writes:
>
> TB> Of course, Invisibility to all sense groups is going to be pretty rare.
> TB> How does one justify Invisibility to the "unusual" sense group?
>
> Simply covering all the bases, as it were.
>
> [...]
>
> TB> ?? When did you start advocating that defense should be more expensive
> TB> than that against which they defend?
>
> Detects are not "defenses", they are "attacks" inasmuch as they attempt to
> find something. See my just posted message on this.
Let's get something straight...
Defenses which reduce effects are less expensive than the attacks which
create them...
Defenses which *avoid* effects entirely are more expensive than ability to
circumvent the evasion...
ED is less expensive that EB,
but DCV is more expensive than OCV,
and while hardened is less expensive than armor piercing,
Desolidification is more expensive than "Affects Desolid" (gag),
and Invisibility is more expensive than a single special sense to
circumvent it (like IR, or targeting smell...)
ERGO
Detect Invisibility is just fine costing less than full invisiblity. In
fact it should.
Why does Champions have this philosophy?
Because the power, "Invisibility" or "desolid", is just about always going
to be useful (as an "active" ability), while the abilities which
circumvent them are dead weight unless you have something to circumvent.
So the blanket statement, "defenses should cost less" requires a little
more enlightened understanding of the system before applying it,
particularly the distinction between evasion and reduction.
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:52:32 -0500 (EST)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Champions Mages
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>JaRP> True, true. But I've found that building something like a mage (who
>JaRP> will have a lot of points sunk into knowledge skills) just isn't
>JaRP> workable on 250 points.
>
>The problem here is not the lack of points, it is the plethora of skills
>that are useless within the context of the game. Yes, I harp on the fact
>that if you did not pay the points for a thing you do not have that thing.
>But the other side of that coin is, why should you pay for something you
>never use?
>
>I mean, sure, it may be neat that you know the name of every major denizen
>of Hell and most of the minor ones. Unless you have routine need of this
>information there is no need to waste 3 points (INT-based) on a Knowledge
>Skill: Denizens of Hell. This kind of background information can and
>should be handwaved as background information.
True, but a 'properly' done mage will likely know several languages, not to
mention several highly _relevant_ knowledge skills. I wouldn't force someone
to buy KS: Denizens of Hell, but a mage should have at least KS: Magical
Creatures. Lumping it all down to KS: Magic is IMHO the _wrong_ thing to do,
kind of like having SC: Science.
And this doesn't even cover all the niggling little things that every mage
_should_ have. A bit of Power Defense, a bit of Mental Defense, Sense Magic,
a small base with a library (no mage should be without a library), Mental
Awareness, a few contacts (your old master, etc.), a decent amount of PRE.
It all belongs, but it all eats up points. Then there's the Spirit Rules,
which I like a lot but will require the proper mage to spend even more points...
Don't get me wrong. I'm not here trying to build Dr. Strange right from the
character's get-go. But you can't build a 'well-rounded' mage in Champions
on 250 points without taking serious hits to either his combat abilities or
attributes. When I'm looking at an 18 DEX, 18 EGO, SPD 4 character in a
standard Champs campaign trying to find a place to shave points, I gotta
feel that something is wrong. The extra 50 points does the trick, though,
giving you enough slack to get what you need and still in no way step on
anybody else's toes.
Side Note: I think any decent mage should have a VPP as his only 'active',
non-focussed power (excepting those Special Powers you can't get in a VPP
normally). It should go without saying that I liked the mages in Watchers of
the Dragon a whole lot more than Solitaire or Sirius or Madame Blue (how
come most of the magic wielders in Champs are women?), let alone anything
out of Mystic Masters ("Here, everybody gets 75 points worth of Astral Form...")
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"And go on to rule this world from beyond the grave."
"Indeed!"
"That, or check into a mental hospital; whatever comes first."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:07:44 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Dataweaver wrote:
> > A GM with this approach dispenses with affects desolid, stright-up power
> > defense, unspecified "hardened" advantages and the like, and replaces them
> > with the campaign world's pseudo-science.
>
> Yes and no; Affects Desolid needs to go, since Desolid already
> incorporates that into itself ("specify the special effect that bypasses
> this power"). Hardened and power defense aren's problems at all as long
> as a special effect is provided for them.
Right! That is what I was trying to say.
> "what _kind_ of pseudo-energy is it?" seems a bit like splitting hairs;
> the comics don't get that detailed, so why should Champions?
You know, at first they don't, but eventually it comes up. Same thing in
campaigns... the player doesn't really think about or need to think about
what "kind" of energy it is until it comes up.
> Sounds more like you've got pets rather than players... =\
They're only pets if they act like little munchkins. ;) Really, I have a
fine set of players that really need very little encouragement to keep on
track. They come from a different campaigning background, though, so
playing in my campaigns has a capacity to surprise them... and there's no
telling what reaction a player thrown off his routine will have: running
with it, having a blast; pouting; rules lawyering; fumbling around, unsure
of how to direct his character; demanding that you run the scene
differently... you really never know. My goal has always been to lead
players into reacting IN-game, rather that OUT-of game.
One of my players had never seen a PC death before, in a decade of
role-playing! When his traveling companion died, he took it harder than
the dead one... criticizing me for not having an NPC show up five minutes
sooner to save the day. What can I say? I'm of the philosophy that
dispassionate GMing and a belief in adherence to the laws of the world
you've created is a recipe for more enjoyable long-term play... the GM who
interferes and fudges on even an occasional basis will be expected to do
so; and what's worse, it encourages the player to react out-of-game, to
the GM, when something bad happens rather than in-game (i.e. the attitude
"the GM did this to me," rather than "this happened to me because of this
situation I got into.")
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:14:28 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Affects Desolid/Power Defense
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On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> The only character I've ever seen who had a good SFX for blanket Power
> Defense (that is, who I *wouldn't* feel comfortable slapping on a
> Limitation) is Bob Ramsey of the Justifiers (see the PC group on my
> website). His body instantly adapts and "heals" a portion of whatever
> alterations are made to it. This is good against disease, magic, molecular
> transformations, poison, or really anything else.
I found TUSM to be a good resource on expanding and clarifying Transform,
of note:
Transform is based on Killing Attack, with the logic "if I could have
killed it, I might as well have changed it into something else."
There can be Social, Mental, *and* Physical transforms--now it gets even
harder to find the holy grail of the Ultimate Power Defense...
It suggested allowing cosmetic transforms to kick in as a major cumulative
transform worked its magic. "Bob, you look a little green today. Are you
feeling all right?" "Yes! Yes! Just get me some flies!" "Did you say
*flies*?"
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From: Rog <uraeus@mail3.bunt.com>
Subject: RE: Ye GODS........!!!
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 01:22:33 +0100
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Hades - ability to see the dead/spirits (ghosts & other normally invisible
emanations) and able to talk to the dead
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:37:05 -0800
From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell)
Subject: Re: Ye GODS........!!!
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My picks (in a Fantasy Hero situation):
Ares Strength at Arms (weapon famil: all weapons, several HTH or Combat levels)
Athena Wisdom (high Ego, Deduction, perhaps Telepathy only to see if someone is lying)
Hephaistos A kick-ass magic sword
Aphrodite Charm (High Cha, Seduction, Conversation)
Hermes Speed
Poseidon A kick-ass magic horse (he's the god of those, too)
Apollo Archery (Telescopic vision, several ranged levels only usable vs range mods)
Artemis Hunting (tracking, tracking scent, shadowing, stealth, concealment)
Herakles Strength (probably some Con, Pd and Ed, too)
That would probably be enough to make a pretty scary Fantasy Hero villain, assuming
he starts with pretty Godly stats.
-Sam
BTW: I highly recommend "Encyclopedia of Gods" for any GM interested in using gods. It
has a great index where gods are sorted by culture and by spheres of influence. You can
use it for all sorts of stuff, like making up Xoczam, the Aztec Shazam with:
The ferocity of Xolotl,
The cunning of Opochtli,
The strength of Chalmecatl,
The healing touch of Zapotlantenan,
The fiery gaze of Atl and
The cosmic power of Moyocoyani
Mesoamerican evildoers beware!
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Reply-To: <dflacks@ican.net>
From: "dflacks" <dflacks@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Body from Ego Attacks
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:45:05 -0500
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> From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
> Date: Wednesday, February 11, 1998 9:39 AM
>
> Okay, let's suppose that a sample character hasa *very* fragile mind and
> can and will take Body damnage from normal Ego Attacks. How is this
> bought? Physical Limitation? Susceptability, Vulnerability?
>
> And suggestions would be welcome.
I remember some of the characters in the Champions of the North sourcebook
took damage from ego attacks. Aura for example. It was defined as a
Physical limitation.
10 Phys Lim: Takes Body from Ego attacks as per normal attack.
I hope that helps
Daniel Flacks dflacks@ican.net
Give me ambiguity or give me something else
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From: "dflacks" <dflacks@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:57:47 -0500
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> From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
> Date: Sunday, February 08, 1998 7:48 PM
>
> >>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes:
>
> q> BOECV is a pretty expensive Advantage, and you'd have to specify a
> q> reasonable manner of escape (eg make Ego Roll at -1 per 1 Def/Bod)
>
> But that does not address the fact that someone cannot use an EB or KA to
> break his friend out of such an Entangle. BOECV is expensive, but I do
not
> agree that it is expensive enough to justify that change in game balance.
>
The character Ambrosia from Champions of the North had this power. BTW
Champions of the North is one of my favorite books, chock full of
interesting power advantages and limitations.
Below I am including the relevent section of her character writeup. I hope
by doing so I am not violating any copywrites, and apologize prefusely in
advance.
>From page 52 of Champions of the North
Ambrosia's "entangle" is based on ECV. This means that STR and Energy
Blast have no effect on it. EGO rolls and EGO attacks must be used
instead. A character using his EGO to escape rolls 1d6 and pays 1 END per
5 points of EGO used. His EGO score may be pushed to increase the chance
of success, as usual. The "entangle" can also be "damaged" by the EGO
attack power, either originating from the defender or one of his allies.
Note that this is the one case in which EGO attacks can do BODY damage (of
a sort), although it is only versus the "entangle"
I have used BOECV entangles since I bought the Champions of the North book,
and have interpreted it to mean that EGO Blast, or and BOECV attack can
roll phantom Body versus a BOECV entangle. Works for Me.
Daniel Flacks dflacks@ican.net
Give me ambiguity or give me something else
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:00:38 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Changing the Standard in 5th (Re: Templates Discussion)
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> >don't want to play no "just starting out" version. When you tell them you
> >can't run BatMan as is, but can run a very weak version of "beginning
> >batman" they'll be liable to up and run to another game system . . . or
> >back to Magic.
> >
> Pandering to munchkins is no way to run a system.
Tell me with a straight face that this attitude isn't the reason
why Champions finds it so difficult to attract new gamers.
> Look. Power is all relative. So if you up the base hero to 400 points, then
> Joe Viper Agent will be at 200 points, and Larry The Mugger will be at 100
> points. It's like multiplying the score at a pinball game by ten without
> changing gameplay at all. A bumper which once gave 10 points now gives 100,
> then 1000 -- but it's the same relative to your final score.
Not necessarily. What I'm arguing is that at 250 points there is
not enough difference between the Supers and the normals. The power
levels don't concur with the powers that are seen and used in the Comics,
in terms of collateral damage especially. There is also too little room
for the large number of skills necessary for some characters.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:03:10 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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> l> Invisible to touch? Sure it can exist.
>
> Except that it cannot exist as a game mechanic because there is no "touch"
> sense group.
BBB rules, sure. But with 4th edition added rules, it has
appeared. At the same time, we can probably assume its existence, or at
least a discussion of how to simulate it, in 5th edition.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 22:04:28 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV
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At 02:32 PM 2/10/98 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 08:09 PM 2/10/1998, \"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> wrote:
>>Why should you have to use your powers?
>
> It's not a question of requirement; it's a question of availability.
> An Entangle that uses PRE to break out, however, could only be attacked
>with PRE, an appropriate PRE Attack against the target, a PRE Drain, or a
>Power more or less specifically designed to break it. While almost all
>Champions characters have some way of doing 12d6 against PD and/or ED, few
>have a way of doing 12d6 with one of these attack forms. So, even though
>STR and PRE cost roughly the same, this becomes quite an advantage.
Aren't PRE attacks a part of the system? I would think that if you were
PRE'd into immobility, another person could PRE you into mobility. Now,
how someone could help you out of an INT or COM based Entangle is a
different problem.
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 22:07:24 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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At 01:11 PM 2/10/98 -0600, Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:
>Many of us are trying to get rid of "Affects Desolid." We feel that
>game-mechanic construct detract from the feel of the role-playing.
>Furthermore, it's hard to come up with a special effect that works against
>all other special effects. In 5th edition they need to put a lot more work
>into special effects--they are, after all, the *real* effects that are
>happening, the game mechanics are just models. I wish they were called
>real effects and game mechanics were called special effects. Getting past
>someone's desolid or damage reduction requires a "makes-sense" approach.
>Depending on how the real-world physics of your damage reduction or
>desolid works, there ought to be some way around it that makes sense if
>you understand what's going on. More work needs to be put into fleshing
>out variable SFX, too.
>
>I feel like I fight the tide, but I must drill into my players:
>
>Just because it isn't expressed in HERO doesn't mean it doesn't exist!
>Just because it's on your character sheet doesn't mean it will always work
> like you think!
>Just because you didn't take a limitation doesn't mean it's not limited!
>Just because you paid points for it doesn't mean you have a diety-given
> right to it all the time!
>When special effects and game effects conflict, special effects take
> precedence!
>If you don't supply a special effect then one will be provided for you
> (and you won't know it)! (Which can be fun to play.)
>
>A GM with this approach dispenses with affects desolid, stright-up power
>defense, unspecified "hardened" advantages and the like, and replaces them
>with the campaign world's pseudo-science. This means the GM has to go to
>the trouble of *thinking* of the pseudo-science, but this isn't too hard
>and in fact it's fun. Just how *is* it that Mighty Man shoots energy
>blasts from his hands? How could that be stopped? What *kind* of
>pseudo-energy is it? How could it be drained, disrupted, etc.? What things
>would it be *really* effective against? Where might it not work at all?
>Working with the players on this you can build a more effective model of
>the power from the start. This yields more interesting, more fun to play
>powers, and what's even better, you capture the feeling of the comics
>better. Many times the heroes don't *know* the full pseudo-science of the
>universe. So when their static discharge plasma bolts don't work or aren't
>quite as effective vs. a magnetic dissipation field, they're suprised...
>they think... they hop out of their normal routine and play "real" heroes
>under pressure. They're more likely to try to get SFX bonuses from unique
>applications of their powers... They're more likely to think of their
>power as a concentrated ion stream than a 12d6 EB, and that puts them more
>into the role-playing... Or, if you have spoiled players, they whine.
>Spank them.
>
>Yes, yes, you could go slapping around extra dice with SFX limitations,
>and put conditional limitations on everything, but why? A good GM will try
>to keep everything balanced anyway... and his good pseudo-science will
>probably be a better balancing agent than points ever will be. Plus it
>gets back to the boring, hum-drum, I know everything about the system and
>myself game-playing over role-playing attitude, even if it does make for
>more interesting powers.
>
>So, off with ye affects desolid and other olde game mechanics. There's no
>such thing as desolid anyway... he's a cloud of smoke, or a stream of
>nanites, or dislocated in the ethereal plane, and just how *do* you affect
>such-and-such? Think about it. Even the one *with* the desolid probably
>doesn't know *everything* that can affect him, unless he's a master of the
>pseudo-science of the GM's world (some KS: or SC: appropriate to the SFX).
>And if a PC *has* desolid, and is affected by something that isn't on his
>list, tough! Put it on the list. Works both ways, too. A bad GM could take
>these licenses and misuse them, but what are you doing with a bad GM
>anyway?
>
>I keep a Nerf bat to hit players who come to me saying "I want some power
>defense." "What?? *whap* What was that you wanted? *whap*" "Uh, uh, a
>strong immune system." "Hyper-stable molecular structure." "A mystic
>shield that protects me from magical transformations." "Oh, is *that* what
>you wanted... I'll give you Power Defense (strong immune system) -2 only
>vs. poison and disease; it that all right?" And so forth. Later, if we
>discover that the game mechanics aren't adequately modeling the SFX, we
>change them. I award an additional limitation sometimes, but a lot of
>times these things don't gain points from additional limitations and
>anyway, more fun is to think of a corresponding advantage.
>
>Do this and gaming joy is yours. The mechanics of your world are yours to
>create, not HERO's, and not your players'. HERO is just a flexible
>modeling system, and your players are--well, *players*. Model nothing and
>you'll get nothing--a dry mechanical system. Model something and
>everything comes to life, full of the genre excitement you want out of a
>HERO game. Train your players. You'll thank yourself later.
This post should be included wholly in 5th Ed. Darien, thank you. I'm
starting a campaign soon and I am going to use this, verbatim in the
campaign requirements/background handout.
Joe
PS I don't appologize for including the entire post in my response.
Everyone should read it again.
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:08:33 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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> GH> Oh, come on! There are no absolutes in Champions.
>
> Which is why, as a GM, I would not allow Invisibility to everything without
> an SFX-based "flaw". But the fact remains that a character with
> Invisibility to the "other" sense group, which includes all Detects, cannot
> be perceived with a Detect.
Invisibility to the Unusual Senses Group was disallowed as of
HSA2. It will probably be the same in 5th edition. It was in Steve
Peterson's article, IIRC.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 22:58:12 -0600
From: Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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>> GH> Oh, come on! There are no absolutes in Champions.
>>
>> Which is why, as a GM, I would not allow Invisibility to everything without
>> an SFX-based "flaw". But the fact remains that a character with
>> Invisibility to the "other" sense group, which includes all Detects, cannot
>> be perceived with a Detect.
>
> Invisibility to the Unusual Senses Group was disallowed as of
>HSA2. It will probably be the same in 5th edition. It was in Steve
>Peterson's article, IIRC.
Thank you! It seems patently obvious to me that you can't buy "Unusual"
as a sense group, much as you can't buy "Unusual" as a melee weapons group
in a heroic game (or in most other game systems, for that matter).
And I *believe* it's obvious to everyone on the list but Rat that the
"Sense Group Listing" was never meant to be complete, but rather only a
partial list of the more obvious sense groups. "Magnetic Sense Group",
which would include induction fields, (nuclear) magnetic resonance
imaging, Polaris(Marvel)'s "sense magnetic currents", etc., would be a
totally reasonable sense group, and "Faraday Cage" could have Darkness
or Invisibility versus it.
Donald
PS Okay, if SPF was still on the list, he wouldn't find it obvious either.
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Changing the Standard in 5th (Re: Templates Discussion)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:13:23 -0800
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-----Original Message-----
From: Sam Bell <Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM>
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Wednesday, February 11, 1998 9:09 AM
Subject: Re: Changing the Standard in 5th (Re: Templates Discussion)
<snip>
>
>"250 points is a great level for Silver and Golden Age campaigns."???
>
>Yeah, right. Pre-Crisis Superman, Flash, Green Lantern, the Spectre,
Thor, Silver Surfer,
>etc, etc all at 250pts? I'd like to see the write-ups.
Well, the original Superman had Superleap, roughly a 60 STR, Missile
Reflection vs bullets, N-Ray vision, and about 30 PD, 30 ED,
Resistant.
I could do that, I think.
The original Silver Surfer was more powerful than the entire Fantastic
Four. Hardly average. In fact, the Fantastic Four could probably be
designed on 250 pts, in their original forms.
The others I don't know enough about to rate, but it seems to me that
you are deliberately picking the most powerful superheroes possible. I
am willing to bet that I could do the original Iron Man, Spider Man,
Batman, or any number of others for 250 pts.
>The only Golden/Silver Age Teams that could be done on around 250pts
are the Starting X-Men,
>the Seven Soldiers, and possibly the Invaders (as they actually
appeared in the 1940s, not
>with their ret-conned level of power. Of course, they never actually
existed as the Invaders
>in the 1940s, the whole concept is a ret-con (and a good one)).
I still think that I could do the Fantastic Four, as they originally
were, on 250 pts. each.
Filksinger
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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 00:29:40 -0500 (EST)
From: William K Bushway <wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu>
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Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Ye GODS........!!!
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Here's how I would do it:
If he's going to be a villain, I think the key is to choose powers
that are "corruptions", or wholly evil uses of the original God's powers.
Don't forget behaviors to match the powers.
Ares: Combat Skill Levels, and FAM with every weapon. Let him pick up
one the heros' weapons, and use it with as much skill (or more) than them.
Arrogance and Overconfidence, with a healthy temper would compliment this.
Athena: Wisdom, played as cruel, cold Logic. Give him some abilities
that simulate precognition, as if he "predicts their every move."
Hephastus: Invention. Have him create weapons of incredible power, and
then hand them out to irresponsible mortals. Maybe some knid of crude
gun?
Aphrodite: The abiltiy to Mind Control women, and make him a slick,
abusive User of them.
Artemis: Tracking, possibly the ability to Transform people into beasts,
for him to hunt. Give him absolutely no respect for women, as a parody of
Artemis's feminine views.
Hermes: Super-speed. Have him use it callously, much like MiracleBoy in
the MiracleMan comics.
Poseidon: Life Support, not just in the sea, but in all enviroments.
Give him Poseidon's thirst for power, and his desire to throw down the
other gods.
Apollo: Give him the power of the sun to call on at will. Make him leave
flaming footprints wherever he walks, and a disregard for the distruction
he causes.
Hades: Give him the power to pull the spirits of the dead up from the
Underworld. Nothing is quite so dramatic as killing the Hero's true love,
and then keeping her soul to torment forever.
I picture this character as an "Evil Superman." If you've read
Kingdom Come, it may help to picture Captain Marvel in the last battle
(before the finale). The gods traditionally thought of as "Evil" should
merely be capricious compared to this guy. Zues shouldn't be able to
control him, and though Hera would try to use him, even she'll be afraid
of him.
William K. Bushway, wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu
http://Mason.GMU.edu/~wbushway/index.html
"I'm betting that I'm just abnormal enough to survive."
-The Tick, The Tick Vs.The Breadmaster
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Ye GODS........!!!
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 22:47:31 -0800
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On Wednesday, February 11, 1998 2:00 PM, TokyoMark wrote:
>At 01:33 PM 2/11/98 -0800, Chad Riley wrote:
>>I am considering running a "Godling" campain. Players would create
new
>>gods from whatever mythology they choose. Power levels have yet to
be
>>determined. Anyway, my question is: I want to create a Potential
Mega
>>Villain on mount olympus. A new baby god was just delivered unto
Zeus
>>and Hera (during a rare fit compatability). Being the proud papa
that he
>>is, Zues demands a "gift" from each of the major gods of the
pantheon.
>>
>>Some are easy
>>Hercules: Great Strength
>>Hermes: Great Speed
>
>Poseidon: Limited control of the sea and it's weather.
>Hades: I'm drawing a blank here except for being able to
occasionally
>bring someone back to life.
<snip>
Clairsentience, past only, limited to things seen by men or women now
dead, SFX "Speak with dead".
Filksinger
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:21:56 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Changing the Standard in 5th (Re: Templates Discussion)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 09:00 PM 2/11/98 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> >don't want to play no "just starting out" version. When you tell
them you
>> >can't run BatMan as is, but can run a very weak version of
"beginning
>> >batman" they'll be liable to up and run to another game system .
. . or
>> >back to Magic.
>> >
>> Pandering to munchkins is no way to run a system.
>
> Tell me with a straight face that this attitude isn't the reason
>why Champions finds it so difficult to attract new gamers.
But it IS what keeps people with the system. I've been playing Hero
System since 1981 -- probably more games in it then in all the other
systems I use, combined.
>> Look. Power is all relative. So if you up the base hero to 400
points, then
>> Joe Viper Agent will be at 200 points, and Larry The Mugger will
be at 100
>> points. It's like multiplying the score at a pinball game by ten
without
>> changing gameplay at all. A bumper which once gave 10 points now
gives 100,
>> then 1000 -- but it's the same relative to your final score.
>
> Not necessarily. What I'm arguing is that at 250 points there is
>not enough difference between the Supers and the normals.
A 250 point super is more than TEN TIMES as powerful as a 25 point
normal, since points aren't linear. The rule I remember is every 50
points is a doubling of power, so a 250 point character is 32 times
as powerful as a 0 point character.
The power
>levels don't concur with the powers that are seen and used in the
Comics,
>in terms of collateral damage especially. There is also too little
room
>for the large number of skills necessary for some characters.
>
Collateral damage can easily be fudged by the GM...upping the power
levels to city-destroying level would mean out-of-genre body counts.
When the FF and Galactus duke it out and lay waste to lower
Manhattan, hardly anyone dies. That's genre.
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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 06:14:07 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Filksinger wrote:
> I don't allow an overall Invisibility to Detect. To have Invisibility
> to Detect, one must buy Invisibility to Detect X, where X is clearly
> defined.
Then, on the flipside, I wouldn't allow Detect "Invisibility" (the power),
only Detect Invisibility (special effect X). Like Detect Magical
Invisibility to Normal Sight.
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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 04:27:12 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Organization: Satan's Children
Subject: Re: Changing the Standard in 5th (Re: Templates Discussion)
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Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> > Power is all relative. So if you up the base hero to 400 points, then
> > Joe Viper Agent will be at 200 points, and Larry The Mugger will be at 100
> > points. It's like multiplying the score at a pinball game by ten without
> > changing gameplay at all. A bumper which once gave 10 points now gives 100,
> > then 1000 -- but it's the same relative to your final score.
>
> Not necessarily. What I'm arguing is that at 250 points there is
> not enough difference between the Supers and the normals. The power
> levels don't concur with the powers that are seen and used in the Comics,
> in terms of collateral damage especially. There is also too little room
> for the large number of skills necessary for some characters.
Maybe I'm misreading, but it seems that you're saying that some
characters need a large number of skills, while presumably some don't.
It's still all relative; if a character needs to spend 80 points for
skills, the utility of those skills is taken in exchange for power level
bought with the remaining points. Which still means that characters who
DON'T take a large number of skills will subsequently spend those points
on raising the damage level of their power(s). In fact, in 14 years of
gaming, I have found it rare to see characters with large numbers of
skills - in games with experienced players and/or higher power levels.
I was in a game with no limits or requirements for point levels or even
balancing disads. Still it was rare to see a lot of skills. The idea
I'm going for here is that 250 points is sufficient for MOST superhero
concepts. You can't skew the levels simply to accomodate the
abberations.
A 250 point super will most likely have a 50-60 AP attack. This is
enough to severely damage any normal, and kill them with max damage. I
think that's quite a difference in power level. There are still plenty
of Superheroes in comics that have to worry about police and 'agent'
power levels, so it is not necessarily standard to have a huge gap
between Supers and others. Also, the idea of not necessarily being able
to have Everything Desired at character creation helps define a
character and makes the player put more thought into character
development. I believe that it ultimately yields a more interesting
character growth direction than starting out with everything then
growing.
Also remember - as mentioned before - comics and RPGs necessarily
have a different dynamic in regards to power level anyway. In the New
Teen Titans, the team's leader was Robin (from Batman and...), and the
roster included a flying EBer and a Cyborg Brick and a
ShapeShifter/Multiform with seemingly unlimited forms. These characters
written up in the Hero System would be widely different from each other,
but they all had equal utility to the team. This works when characters
are written, but when played by RolePlayers, a 225 point character is
not going to be as effective as a 450 point character. So the arguement
of doing what the comics do is of limited applicability.
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 07:28:18 -0500 (EST)
From: THE MAD HARLEQUIN <ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: RE: Ye Gods!
Cc: RAVANOS <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
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Adonis- Rebirth, seasons, love and beauty.
Body Aid, Change Enviornment, High Com & Pre
Aphrodite- Strong, proud, loving, independent goddess accoiated with the
ocean and the moon, as well as love, beauty, the joy of physical love,
sensuality, passion, geneorsity, all forms of partnerships and
relationships, fertility, continued creation, and renewal.
Mind Control (Only effects that would enhance all ready existant
love and passion), Detect: Desire (360, Range, Discriminatory), LS: vs.
Aging and Scaring, Mind Scan (Only to discover person's most desireable
mate) and Shape Shift (Assume form of most desireable mate [after Mind
Scan])
Apollo- God of solar light, used bow and lyre, arrows bringing illness or
death, perfectly built. Represented lawful punishment of crimes, not
revenge; justified revenge. God of prophesy, poetry, music, medicine,
oracles, healing, eason, inspiration, the arts, divination, harmony, and
the spring.
Change Enviornment, Clairsentience, Pre and Com, Flash, RKA w/
extended duration Supress or Transform
Ares- A bloodthirsty liar, not trusted by the greeks. Wore a crested
helmet, and was thought of as very tough, intensive, and greatly
consearned with the male image. God of war, terror, uncontrolled anger,
revenge, courage without thought, raw energy, brute stregnth, untamed
passions, any situation where stamina is needed. (self-disciplined)
Lots of combat skills supplemented with high physical abilities.
Mind Control "Fear Me", an extremely high Pre (Only meant for agression)
Most likely, Enraged in Combat
0 End on certain abilities.
Artemis- Virgin huntress, goddess of wild places and wild things. The
huntress, maiden, bear goddess, moon goddddess, hunter of souls. Known to
be a shape shifter. Wandered with nymphs and hunting dogs. Swift to
actand decisively to protect and rescue those who appealed for her help
and was quick to punish offenders. Silver bow, defender of women (from
men), goddess of animals and elements as well as wild animals and
herbalists.
Mind Link (animals), superior ability with hunting and bow,
Shape Shifting (possibly linked to a VPP), summoning, followers (nymphs
and hunting dogs), Clairsentience (Only to sense those who plead to
Artemis for protection), Change Enviornment
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Subject: Re: Body from Ego Attacks
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 98 08:38:51 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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On 2/11/98 6:33 PM Bob Greenwade (bob.greenwade@klock.com) Said:
>>>>Okay, let's suppose that a sample character hasa *very* fragile mind and
>>>>can and will take Body damnage from normal Ego Attacks. How is this
>>>>bought? Physical Limitation? Susceptability, Vulnerability?
>>>>
>>>>And suggestions would be welcome.
>>>
>>> Though it takes a house rule to do it, I would model it as a
>>> Vulnerability. Treat it as a 2X Vulnerability, but count the extra damage
>>> as BODY instead of STUN.
>>> I do a similar thing for a darkness-based villain who takes STUN damage
>>> from visual Flash Attacks.
>>
>>The STUN damage from Flash attacks would be a Susceptibility (check
>>the instant effect section), and the Body damage from Ego attacks
>>would also work as a Susceptibility since, "At the GM's option, the
>>susceptibility can inflict damage other than STUN. In this case, each
>>d6 of STUN damage should be replaced with 10 Active Points of another
>>attack."
>
> Okay... So how do I get the number of dice in the Susceptibility to
>always match the number of dice in the attack?
Make the susc. like this:
Susceptability: Takes 1d6 STUN per 1d6 (Visual) Flash Used against him
This is probably Uncommon (5 Points), and the damage would be assessed
only on the characters phases (again, probably) for a total of 15 points.
David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Changing the Standard in 5th (Re: Templates Discussion)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 06:25:01 -0800 (PST)
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> > > No, the argument is that is _not_ enough for beginning players.
> > >They want to play who they see in comics, movies and cartoons and they
> > >don't want to play no "just starting out" version. When you tell them you
> > >can't run BatMan as is, but can run a very weak version of "beginning
> > >batman" they'll be liable to up and run to another game system . . . or
> > >back to Magic.
>
> > Pandering to munchkins is no way to run a system.
>
> Not this nonsense again. A high power level game is not even vaguely
> equatable to munchkinism. (And given that we're talking about upping the
> point totals to match _average_ super-heroes, we're not even talking
> about high power levels.)
>
Agreed.
> > Look. Power is all relative. So if you up the base hero to 400 points, then
> > Joe Viper Agent will be at 200 points, and Larry The Mugger will be at 100
> > points.
Not really.
I think as is, Heroic characters are a little too close to Super Heroes
in power level.
But even that issue aside, 250 points forces a player to make a choice
between super powers (powerful or not) and background. You can't have both in
full detail. One has to be skimmed a bit.
Look at the average NPC in the BBB. They have less than 3 to 5
background elements a piece. Now compare this to the average 75+75 Heroic
level PC, who can stuff in hordes of background detail and still have unspent
points.
A super Hero really needs to be a 75+75 Heroic PC in ability and
background, with a Powers set added in, which typically runs another 150 to
200 points.
That's a recommendation on my part of from 300 to 350 points simply to
get the same power level currently used in the BBB.
Now I'm not suggesting that all Super Heroes be built as 75+75 heroics,
then boosted. But I do think it makkes a viable system for many. The one's
it doesn't could simply be built on the total.
Now as to power level, even that could go up a notch to better simulate
comics. As is, the game suffers from the old D&D 1st level PC syndrome. D&D's
no longer the standard; so following it no longer makes sense.
I'm not sure what power level would best simulate current comics
however.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Changing the Standard in 5th (Re: Templates Discussion)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 06:28:33 -0800 (PST)
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> > The 'background skills' problem is best solved by stealing a page from
> > Fuzion and having a small 'reserve set' of points for skills, knowledges,
> > etc. Simply adding more points won't cut it, because when the 'baseline'
> > went from 100+100 to 100+150, the result was character with 50 points more
> > in EB or Armor or Flight -- not characters with 50 points of background
> > skills.
>
> When did that happen, exactly? 4th Edition uses 100 base points plus up
> to 150 Disads; 3rd Edition used 100 base points plus however many Disads
> you wanted. (I don't have the book immediately handy, but as I recall the
> average total cost of the sample characters was around 280.)
250. Third edition not averaged 250, but every character save mechanon
and the viper agents in the rule book was 250.
2nd and 1st editions ranged from around 200 to 250. I'd have to go
look again to see what it was exactly.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: In support of 'Advantage
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 06:37:53 -0800 (PST)
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> > Well, I posted one about a week ago:
> > Advantaged:
> > If no other reasonable method can be found to construct an effect,
>
> That right there says that the Advantage will never be used.
I disagree.
Champions handles the Champions paradigm of Super Heroes perfectly. But not
so much the Marvel, Image, DC, or what have you paradigms.
There are many ways to construct effects with long drawn out mechanics
that require double takes to understand why power X was used for effect Y.
That is where it goes beyond reasonable.
There's also the issue of things it just doesn't do. Unless you start
looking at transform as a do anything kludge power. Sometimes it's much more
elegant and reasonable to simply modify another power. But the system as is
provides no outlet for this. It's not an open ended design system like say,
FUDGE is. Hero has limits where it breaks down in it's ability to
simulate the genre.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 06:45:44 -0800 (PST)
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> > Yeah. I sent along such an idea in my questionaire for adjustment
> > powers. Suggesting that the default setting be pick a special effect, and
> > picking a single power despite special effect be the one that is an
> > advantage.
>
> I'm not convinced that the latter needs to be allowed at all, personally.
I agree. But it is the current setting. And removing it would upset
the 'stuck in hero mode' crowd.
If it were me, all defenses and attacks would be special effects
dependant.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/
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From: lowecm@polaris.clarkson.edu
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:07:48 -0500 (EST)
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Filksinger wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 10, 1998 3:23 PM, lowecm@polaris.clarkson.edu
> wrote:
>
>
> <snip>
> >
> >Actually no, DR does reduce NND, unless you limit it specifically.
> As
> >it says, "Normal Damage Reduction acts against normal, AVLD, and NND
> >attacks. Resistant Damage Reduction affects normal, AVLD, NND, and
> >Killing Attacks."
>
>
> Oops.
>
> That said, that is, IMHO, a stupid rule. If I buy an NND attack that
> is gas, is that physical or energy?
>
> I can think of attacks that are physical and NND (nerve strike),
> energy and NND (ultra-high voltage taser), or none of the above and
> NND (gas attack). I cannot think of a Mental attack that I think
> deserves NND, and I can think of ten times as many effects that are
> energy or none of the above as I can physical. This gives added
> utility to energy Damage Reduction over the others, for the same
> price.
Well one option for the gas attack would be to buy it AVLD vs Power
Def. If they have DR for Power Def, then it'd reduce it, otherwise
I wouldn't think it would. Or, alternatively, the GM could make it
a judgement call and have it do the full damage based on the SFX of
the gas attack and DR.
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
Subject: re: Champions Mages
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 07:14:50 -0800
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John Prins said:
>every mage _should_ have... Power Defense, Mental Defense, Sense Magic,
>a small base with a library (no mage should be without a library),
Mental
>Awareness, a few contacts (your old master, etc.), a decent amount of
PRE.
>you can't build a 'well-rounded' mage in Champions on 250 points
without
>taking serious hits to either his combat abilities or attributes.
Then why shoot for a well-rounded mage? What's wrong with intentionally
designing a flaw into your character?
My 250-point Champions mage had a large array of spells and skills. Not
nearly as many as he could have had, but he was no ordinary mage -- he
had amnesia. He possessed an archaeologist who found a magic ring on a
dig. Now, the archaeologist and the mage share a body, neither are fully
in control, and neither have their full capacity. The wizard suspects
that he was once much more powerful, and is trying to discover his past.
The archaeologist is trying to find a way to get the wizard out of his
body.
As a character, Mystikon has enough spells in his VPP to cover most
eventualities. Combat, investigation, transport, etc. are all taken care
of, often with choices of spells.
13 STR 3 << Wizard's Knowledge >> << Montana Smith >> OCV: 7
(+2)
20 DEX 30 90 VPP 2 Archaeology 11- DCV: 7
(+2)
15 CON 10 30 Control 2 Paleontology 11- ECV: 5
(+2)
10 BOD Magic Spells Only -1/2 2 Anthropology 11-
13 INT 3 2 Ancient Relics 11- DEX: 20
15 EGO 10 15 Spellcasting 18- 2 Museums 11- SPD: 5
18 PRE 8 2 TF: Horses, Boats 1 Security Sys 8-
12 COM 1 1 Appraisal 8- PER: 14-
5 PD 2 << Wizard's Ring >> 1 Bureaucratics 8- EGO: 13-
5 ED 2 5 +2 w/ Magic
5 SPD 20 1 K: Wizards PD: 5
6 REC 2 +10 END ED: 5
40 END * 3 +2 PER
25 STN Run 6"
15 Secret ID 10 Curious 5 Rep: Wizard 5 1.5x Mental Illu
10 Son 5 Worried 10 H: Necromaster 8- 10 2d Telepathy
10 Partner about son 10 H: Chronasta 11- 5,5 Amnesic,
Flashbacks
10 CvK 10 Mystery 10 H: Vampire 8- 20 Wants to know past
<< Spells >>
36 Lar's Anguish of the Damned 4.5d Ego Attack Conc
36 Lar's Battle Gear 15 DEF Armor 15-
37 Lar's Long Sword 2d HKA AffDes @ 3x END
30 Lar's Prison 12 rPD Trans Force Wall Full Phase
22 Lar's Battering Ram 6d AP EB Beam, No Range,
Gest
27 Shield of Arathen 15/25 FF Only During Day,
Inc
27 Mystic Bonds of Arathen 4d Entangle Only During Day,
Gest
18 Arathen's Magical Absorption 8d Absorb Magic to STUN Only During Day
13 Arathen's Comfort LS: Breathe, Vac, Temp Only During Day
14 Arathen's Atmosphere 16" CE: Comfortable Only Day, Inc,
Gest
22 Arathen's Restoration 7d Heal any one Only Day, Gest,
Conc
26 Mordecai's Fireball 2d RKA Explosion Conc
22 Mordecai's Lightning Strike 9d EB Beam Gest, Only
Outdoors
32 Mordecai's Banshee Shriek 4d NND Inc
10 Freneth's Levitation 5" Flight Persistent Only Up/Down
15 Freneth's Flight 15" Gliding
30 Freneth's Air Command 9d Suppress Flight Gest Throughout
22 Freneth's Merform 10" Swim + IR + LS
26 Elspeth's Trans-Gate 5" Tport 4xMass 32xDist Conc, Gest, Inc
32 Elspeth's Ethereal Form Desolid (Not vs Magic) Conc
14 Ashby's Legend Reading Retrocog See & Hear OAF, Full Turn,
Vis
36 Ashby's Overload 3d Flash Sight/Hear/Sm Gest
22 Ashby's Phantasm -5 Images 2h See/Hr/Sm Only Known
Obj/Events
16 Ashby's Farsight ClairSee, Hear 1 km OAF, Gest
Throughout
10 Ashby's Closet Instant Change
40 Ashby's Eternal Gloom 3" Darkness to All Sight
5 Ashby's Magic Sense +2 Discrim Detect Magic END
23 Ashby's Undetectable Field Invis Sight/Hear/Sm Max Move = 2"
25 Ashby's Warning Danger Sense 11- nearby
10 Ashby's Prohetic Dreams Precog NCC, Only When
Asleep
25 Pietro's Revenge Reflection, Delayed Feedback
30 Pietro's Cancellation 12d Dispel Magic Gest, Inc
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
------
>"And go on to rule this world from beyond the grave."
>"Indeed!"
>"That, or check into a mental hospital; whatever comes first."
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
------
Isn't that supposed to be "check into a psycho ward"?
Dave Mattingly
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:15:49 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 02:49 PM 2/11/1998 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>On Tuesday, February 10, 1998 10:10 PM, Bob Greenwade:
>>At 08:15 PM 2/10/1998 -0500, lowecm@polaris.clarkson.edu wrote:
><snip>
>>It doesn't need to have a 10,000
>>>page rulebook to describe every single possibility, as long as you
>>>define the special effects.... [snip]
>>
>> I couldn't agree more! It only takes 400 genre and Ultimate books
>>averaging 250 pages each. ;-]
>
>It doesn't take 10,000 pages, it takes 100,000?<g>
Oops, math error. (That's what I get for trying to do it in my head
instead of with my calculator, which I keep under my monitor.)
It takes 40 genre/Ultimate books, averaging 250 pages each.
Hey.... I think we might actually *get* that within a few years!
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:18:24 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 11:30 AM 2/10/1998 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>On Monday, February 09, 1998 4:25 PM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>>At 02:15 PM 2/9/1998 -0600, Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:
>>>About the absolute invisibility thing...
>>>how would you build a common staple: "detect invisibility?"
>>
>> More importantly, how is Detect Invisibility affected by Invisibility to
>>Detect?
>
>I don't allow an overall Invisibility to Detect. To have Invisibility
>to Detect, one must buy Invisibility to Detect X, where X is clearly
>defined.
So would the needed Power be Detect Invisibility to Detect Invisible,
then?
---
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:24:11 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Body from Ego Attacks
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 08:38 AM 2/12/1998 -0500, David Fair wrote:
>>>The STUN damage from Flash attacks would be a Susceptibility (check
>>>the instant effect section), and the Body damage from Ego attacks
>>>would also work as a Susceptibility since, "At the GM's option, the
>>>susceptibility can inflict damage other than STUN. In this case, each
>>>d6 of STUN damage should be replaced with 10 Active Points of another
>>>attack."
>>
>> Okay... So how do I get the number of dice in the Susceptibility to
>>always match the number of dice in the attack?
>
>Make the susc. like this:
>
>Susceptability: Takes 1d6 STUN per 1d6 (Visual) Flash Used against him
>
>This is probably Uncommon (5 Points), and the damage would be assessed
>only on the characters phases (again, probably) for a total of 15 points.
1. Visual Flashes are Uncommon in your campaign? I call them Common,
and if each *die* is counted as an occurrence, it's probably Very Common.
2. The effect is Instant. This is worth +0 points, not +10.
3. Most relevently, there is no "damage per die" option in
Susceptibility. Only Vulnerability gives problems proportional to the
effect.
---
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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:39:07 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: re: Champions Mages
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>John Prins said:
>>every mage _should_ have... Power Defense, Mental Defense, Sense Magic,
>>a small base with a library (no mage should be without a library),
>>Mental Awareness, a few contacts (your old master, etc.), a decent amount of
>>PRE.
>>you can't build a 'well-rounded' mage in Champions on 250 points
>>without taking serious hits to either his combat abilities or attributes.
>Then why shoot for a well-rounded mage? What's wrong with intentionally
>designing a flaw into your character?
Nothing is wrong with that, but I don't think that playing a mage 'just out
of apprenticeship' is an unreasonable goal for a starting character in
Champions. Like I said, I can _almost_ do it. Almost, but not quite. I
either lose out on the miscellaneous stuff he should have, or wind up being
completely noncompeditive when the fur hits the fan. I don't mind throwing
9D6 Energy Blasts when the Projector is throwing 12D6, but if I'm reduced to
7D6, I start feeling cheated for building to concept.
>My 250-point Champions mage had a large array of spells and skills. Not
>nearly as many as he could have had, but he was no ordinary mage
>
>As a character, Mystikon has enough spells in his VPP to cover most
>eventualities. Combat, investigation, transport, etc. are all taken care
>of, often with choices of spells.
>
>13 STR 3 << Wizard's Knowledge >> << Montana Smith >> OCV: 7
>(+2)
>20 DEX 30 90 VPP 2 Archaeology 11- DCV: 7
>(+2)
>15 CON 10 30 Control 2 Paleontology 11- ECV: 5
>(+2)
>10 BOD Magic Spells Only -1/2 2 Anthropology 11-
90 Point VPP??? 90 Point VPP??? Great jumping Jehosaphat, man!! Personally,
I'm shooting for a 45-60 point VPP for a starting mage, with the limitation
"Requires a Skill Roll" on all spells. I certainly don't see how 'Magic
Spells Only' rates a -1/2 limitation. From your list below, you sure don't
look limited...
>13 INT 3 2 Ancient Relics 11- DEX: 20
>15 EGO 10 15 Spellcasting 18- 2 Museums 11- SPD: 5
Way low for a mage, IMHO. A mage should at least have an EGO equal to his
DEX, and I'd want a better INT.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:57:48 -0500 (EST)
From: THE MAD HARLEQUIN <ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: RE: Ye gods! [2]
Cc: RAVANOS <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Asclepius- Son of Apollo, he is the god of healing. He learned the
haling arts from the centaur Chiron. His sons and daughters all served as
doctors and temple physicans (respectively). They founded the college of
medicine, the Asklepiades, which taught medicine as a sacred secret.
Body Aid, Transformation (Sick/diseased to healthy), Detect
(Sickness, Discriminatory), Regeneration (UAO), Supress (All Sf/x related
to disease, sickness, or poisons)
Athena- Holy Virgin, Maiden Goddess, mother Goddess of athens.
All-powerful warrior goddess, but sisliked senseless violence. She wore a
helmet and Aegis (breastplate) and carried a shield and spear. She was a
goddess of freedom and women's rights, patroness of crafts (especially
those of Athens), and career women. She was also known as the protector
of cities and patorn of soldiers, as well as prtoection, writing, the
sciences, architects, wisdom, arts and skills, renewal, true justice,
protection (both psychic and physical), prudence, wise counsel, peace, and
battle strategy.
HKA, Armor w/ Activation, Missile Deflection (all OAF or OIF
[Weapon of opportunity] to represent weapons/armor), AoE Aid to Dex (Only
for purposes of increasing OCV/DCV; Requires Skill roll [Strategy];
Delayed Effect; Trigger (When battle is entered); Only useful versus known
opponents strategy was designed for), Clairsentience (Only to scry the
probable outcome of a battle and possible strategy of opposing armies;
Requires Skill roll, Levels in Find Weakness and any other skills
relevant to Goddess, possible DR, MD, PD, etc.
Bendis- Goddess of moon and fertility. Her rites included orgies.
(Your guess is as good as mine...)
Boreas- God fo the North Wind, prosperity, growth, and riches. Has the
upper body of a man but a serpent's tail, sometimes winged and with two
faces.
His brothers included:
Zephyrus: West wind, calm, peace of mind, love and emotions
Notos: South wind, happiness, change, passion, and the
bringer of rain
Eurus: East, renewing intelligence
TK, AoE (Line), Only grabs and pushes along line, Only in the
direction of the god in question; Change Enviornment
Transformation, Mind Control, or Aid as appropiate
Circe- The weaver of destinies, the death-bird. She could manipulate the
forces of creation and destruction by knots and braids in her hair. The
goddess of physical love, sorcery, enchantments, evil spells, dark magic,
and witchcraft.
Cosmic VPP of Dark Magic; Mind Control "Be attracted to me" (Only
against those who are attracted to women); Transformation
(Making/Disintergration), Gestures (knotting and braiding hair)
Cronus- The father of time, abundunce, agriculture, and prosperity. The
lesson giver and the ruler of the golden age.
Time manipulation powers {...with suggestions I've heard ranging
from a number of different possibilities and constructs};
Change Enviornment (Agriculture); Transformation (Young to old, old to
young; barren fields to prosperous, adundant ones)
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:57:55 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: In support of 'Advantage
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 06:38 PM 2/11/1998 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>On Sat, 7 Feb 1998, Rook wrote:
>
>> Well, I posted one about a week ago:
>> Advantaged:
>> If no other reasonable method can be found to construct an effect,
>
>That right there says that the Advantage will never be used.
That depends on your definition of "reasonable."
---
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:00:52 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: In support of 'Advantaged'
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 11:05 AM 2/10/1998 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>On Monday, February 09, 1998 9:07 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
><snip>
>>Multiple Instances (x2
>>instances of the same Power [on a Base or Vehicle] or "secondary entities"
>>[such as Duplicates, Followers, or Summonees] for +5 points
>
>
>Would this allow me to create two Darkness fields for +5 points? It
>might be worthwhile for similar effects.
I think I'd put a Magnifying Glass on allowing a regular character to
take Multiple Instances of a Power. It wouldn't be grossly unbalancing for
Darkness or similar Powers (such as Images), but it could easily be for
other Powers, especially attack and defense Powers.
---
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:02:58 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Limited Power, 5th Ed. (long)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 11:12 AM 2/10/1998 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>On Monday, February 09, 1998 9:17 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
><snip>
>>>Multiform
>>> All Forms Share END, STUN and BODY: -1/2
>>
>> Personally, I'm of a mind that this should be the default. (Isn'tit
>>already?)
>
>No. If it was, then killing one duplicate would kill them all.
How'd we get from Multiform to Duplication all of a sudden?
><snip>
>> If a character always has a certain effect with a Mental Power, he pays
>>a number of points equal to the amount of effect needed. Thus, Mind Guy in
>>your example would pay 10 points to always have his targets forget what
>>happened during the control.
>> This is approximately the same as buying 3d6 of extra Mind Control, with
>>a -1/2 Limitation that it can only be applied to this purpose; in other
>>words, not too far off the end result you're after.
>
>
>But yours wouldn't cover "Mandatory Mental Effect of EGO +20 (Target
>will perform actions he is normally against doing)."
>
>Or would that be +20 points?
Yes, that would be +20 points to *always* be able to get the target to
perform actions he's normally against doing (provided the actual dice at
least match the target's EGO).
---
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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:32:52 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Changing the Standard in 5th (Re: Templates Discussion)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 06:26 PM 2/11/98 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Lizard wrote:
>
>> Look. Power is all relative. So if you up the base hero to 400 points, then
>> Joe Viper Agent will be at 200 points, and Larry The Mugger will be at 100
>> points.
>
>This is a rather bizarre non-sequitur. How does that follow?
Quit simple. Hero Combat slows down rapidly with multiple combatants. So if
your original adventure called for three VIPER agents to provide a mild
threat to your 200 point hero, then you do not want to have to make it 5
for your 300 point hero. So you make the Viper agents more powerful, and so
on down the line.
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Champions Mages
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:37:50 -0800
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>90 Point VPP??? 90 Point VPP??? Great jumping Jehosaphat, man!!
90 gives him enough room to comfortably hold a good attack and defense
in the pool. When not in combat, it's more than sufficient for other
uses. For true beginning mages, it could easily be lowered. This mage
wasn't your typical starting mage, he was an extremely experienced and
powerful mage who lost his memories.
>Personally, I'm shooting for a 45-60 point VPP for a starting mage,
>with the limitation "Requires a Skill Roll" on all spells.
It's a different flavor. My mage still has to roll to change spells in
the pool, but not to cast them. I wanted to place a greater variety on
his spells' effects -- some require gestures, some only work during the
day, some have side effects, etc., and some always work.
>I certainly don't see how 'Magic Spells Only' rates a -1/2 limitation.
>From your list below, you sure don't look limited...
He knows no spells that change his body size, shape, or composition, for
example. And all spells (he knows around 30) must be written out and
approved ahead of time. For the same cost, an 80-point pool with no
limitation would work just fine.
>13 INT 3
>15 EGO 10
>
>Way low for a mage, IMHO. A mage should at least have an EGO equal to
his
>DEX, and I'd want a better INT.
Ah, but an underwhelming INT and EGO are part of his shtick,
representing less than a full grasp on all his memories. In the future,
once he has a radiation accident and regains his memories, his INT and
EGO will go up.
Dave Mattingly
http://www.geocities.com/soho/5953
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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:39:06 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Changing the Standard in 5th (Re: Templates Discussion)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 06:25 AM 2/12/98 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:
>> > Look. Power is all relative. So if you up the base hero to 400 points,
then
>> > Joe Viper Agent will be at 200 points, and Larry The Mugger will be at
100
>> > points.
>
> Not really.
>
> I think as is, Heroic characters are a little too close to Super Heroes
>in power level.
I agree. But I'd reduce the power levels of Heroic characters.
> Now as to power level, even that could go up a notch to better simulate
>comics. As is, the game suffers from the old D&D 1st level PC syndrome. D&D's
>no longer the standard; so following it no longer makes sense.
> I'm not sure what power level would best simulate current comics
>however.
>
Well, a large part of the problem, as someone else has noted, is that
almost no 'team' comics have characters of equal power levels. I'm a bit
out of the comics scene at the moment, but consider these somewhat dated
examples:
Superboy and Bouncing Boy, LSH.
Robin and Raven, Teen Titans.
The Atom and Superman, JLA.
Hawkeye and Thor, Avengers.
Another problem which comes with high power levels is the 'do everything'
hero. If every hero is strong on offense, strong on defense, strong on
skills, strong on movement, the team tends to become more look-alike. Lower
power levels force specialisation and interdependance, especially at first.
It also gives the characters more room to grow.
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:45:35 -0600 (CST)
Subject: San Angelo:City of Heros
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Is this out yet ? Lone Star in Dallas says that they haven't got it from
their distributor (Chessex).
Curt
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:56:18 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> >> More importantly, how is Detect Invisibility affected by Invisibility to
> >>Detect?
> >
> >I don't allow an overall Invisibility to Detect. To have Invisibility
> >to Detect, one must buy Invisibility to Detect X, where X is clearly
> >defined.
>
> So would the needed Power be Detect Invisibility to Detect Invisible,
> then?
Well, then we go back to having
Invisibility to detect 'invisibility to detect invisible'.
Which of course is detected by...
And that just starts to get out of hand.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/
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Subject: Templates - Background Plug-Ins
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 98 12:58:20 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
The following is the list of background/profession plug-ins that I have
been able to come up with. Please give your thoughts as to:
A. The length of the list (too long, too short)
B. Glaring Omissions
C. Unneeded Entries
D. Anything else you want to say.
I have broken the full list up into categories, for ease of location.
Also, I have tried to include modern-day professions only. Some jobs can
be extrapolated from others, such as basing Herbalist on Pharmacist, just
changing the Base PS, and primary KS. Professions marked with a * are
probably overbroad, but should just allow the player to pick a specialty
by changing the primary KS.
Criminal
Prostitute
Pimp
Burgler
Mugger
Con Artist
Thug
Hit Man
Mafiosa
Enforcer
Pusher
Stoolie
Bookie
Runner
Legal
Security Guard
Forensic Technician
FBI/CIA/BATF/Customs Agent
Judge
Cop
Private Detective
Lawyer*
Swat Team Member
Forest Ranger
U.S. Marshall
Politican*
Military
Enlisted*
Officer*
Mercenary
Specialist*
Special Forces (Seal, Ranger, Green Beret, Etc.)
General Officer
Medical
Nurse
Orderly
Doctor*
Veterinarian
Dentist
Hygenist
Masseuse
Pharmacist
EMT
Fireman
Entertainment
Athlete
Actor
Singer
Dancer
Musician
Director
Reporter
Editor
Author
Photographer
Artist
Playboy
Model
Disc Jockey
Education
Teacher
Librarian
Researcher
Student
Curator (museum or gallery)
Scientist*
Manufacturing/Retail/Service
Bartender
Chef
Clerk
Manager
Assembler
Seamstress
Welder
Glazier
Waiter
Inventor
Deliveryman/Driver
Pilot *
Navigator*
Construction
Carpenter
Handyman
Plumber
Foreman
Mechanic*
Laborer
Miner
Demolitions
Outdoorsman
Professional
Real Estate Agent
Executive
Secretary
Computer Programmer
Architect
Engineer*
Stockbroker
Accountant
Financier
Banker
Marketer/Advertising
Graphic Artist
Cartographer
Mytical
Psychic
Mystic/Seer
Enchanter*
Healer
Alchemist
Astrologer
David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |
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Subject: Templates - Background Plug-Ins
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 98 12:58:55 -0500
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From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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The following is the list of background/profession plug-ins that I have
been able to come up with. Please give your thoughts as to:
A. The length of the list (too long, too short)
B. Glaring Omissions
C. Unneeded Entries
D. Anything else you want to say.
I have broken the full list up into categories, for ease of location.
Also, I have tried to include modern-day professions only. Some jobs can
be extrapolated from others, such as basing Herbalist on Pharmacist, just
changing the Base PS, and primary KS. Professions marked with a * are
probably overbroad, but should just allow the player to pick a specialty
by changing the primary KS.
Criminal
Prostitute
Pimp
Burgler
Mugger
Con Artist
Thug
Hit Man
Mafiosa
Enforcer
Pusher
Stoolie
Bookie
Runner
Legal
Security Guard
Forensic Technician
FBI/CIA/BATF/Customs Agent
Judge
Cop
Private Detective
Lawyer*
Swat Team Member
Forest Ranger
U.S. Marshall
Politican*
Military
Enlisted*
Officer*
Mercenary
Specialist*
Special Forces (Seal, Ranger, Green Beret, Etc.)
General Officer
Medical
Nurse
Orderly
Doctor*
Veterinarian
Dentist
Hygenist
Masseuse
Pharmacist
EMT
Fireman
Entertainment
Athlete
Actor
Singer
Dancer
Musician
Director
Reporter
Editor
Author
Photographer
Artist
Playboy
Model
Disc Jockey
Education
Teacher
Librarian
Researcher
Student
Curator (museum or gallery)
Scientist*
Manufacturing/Retail/Service
Bartender
Chef
Clerk
Manager
Assembler
Seamstress
Welder
Glazier
Waiter
Inventor
Deliveryman/Driver
Pilot *
Navigator*
Construction
Carpenter
Handyman
Plumber
Foreman
Mechanic*
Laborer
Miner
Demolitions
Outdoorsman
Professional
Real Estate Agent
Executive
Secretary
Computer Programmer
Architect
Engineer*
Stockbroker
Accountant
Financier
Banker
Marketer/Advertising
Graphic Artist
Cartographer
Mytical
Psychic
Mystic/Seer
Enchanter*
Healer
Alchemist
Astrologer
David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |
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From: Miq Millman <miq@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Changing the Standard in 5th (Re: Templates Discussion)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:03:45 -0800 (PST)
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Lizard says:
>
> At 06:26 PM 2/11/98 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote:
> >On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Lizard wrote:
> >
>
> >> Look. Power is all relative. So if you up the base hero to 400 points, then
> >> Joe Viper Agent will be at 200 points, and Larry The Mugger will be at 100
> >> points.
> >
> >This is a rather bizarre non-sequitur. How does that follow?
>
> Quit simple. Hero Combat slows down rapidly with multiple combatants. So if
> your original adventure called for three VIPER agents to provide a mild
> threat to your 200 point hero, then you do not want to have to make it 5
> for your 300 point hero. So you make the Viper agents more powerful, and so
> on down the line.
By this statement, you clearly don't understand the concept of playing
highter powered campaigns. If my hero Thrug is a 100 str brick with 40+
defenses and built on 100+175+100 experience, agents are not a threat to
him, he worries about the master behind the scenes, not the cannon fodder.
You have to run a different campaign at higher levels, its not simply "more
dice to toss around".
I know this works, I've played a character in possibly the highest level
champions campaign I've certianly ever heard about, and it lasted a long
time (7 or 8 years) at the 20d+ level. It was not simply a dice rolling
scene. I've also run many games at high power levels.
--
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Miq Millman miq@teleport.com
Tualatin, OR
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Changing the Standard in 5th (Re: Templates Discussion)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:44:16 -0800 (PST)
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>>>> Look. Power is all relative. So if you up the base hero to 400 points,
>>>> then Joe Viper Agent will be at 200 points, and Larry The Mugger will
>>>> be at 100 points.
>>
>> Not really.
>>
>> I think as is, Heroic characters are a little too close to Super Heroes
>>in power level.
>
> I agree. But I'd reduce the power levels of Heroic characters.
>
I'd disagree. I've played in 50+50 games under 4th edition. While
that setting worked in 3rd and before when the skill list was smaller, and
there were no perks or talents to consider; it can't handle the expanded
4th edition.
We had a problem of having very cardboard characters who had little
detail to them, and had very similar stats across the group.
75+75 gives enough to delve completely into stats and / or skills.
I can build a wide variety of character types on it. The less points you
have, the less choices you have, the more alike all the characters are, the
more 2d the game becomes.
75+75 is in my opinion, the only one of Hero's various power level
settings that works perfectly. It allows a very wide spectrum of abilities.
It gives me access to a list of options limited only by genre. No two
PC's are forced into the same path in design.
>> Now as to power level, even that could go up a notch to better simulate
>>comics. As is, the game suffers from the old D&D 1st level PC syndrome. D&D's
>>no longer the standard; so following it no longer makes sense.
>> I'm not sure what power level would best simulate current comics
>>however.
>>
> Well, a large part of the problem, as someone else has noted, is that
> almost no 'team' comics have characters of equal power levels. I'm a bit
> out of the comics scene at the moment, but consider these somewhat dated
> examples:
>
This problem is not so severe in modern comics.
Look at
Gen13
Generation X
Stormwatch
WildC.A.T.S.
Cyberforce
YoungBlood
TeenTitans (new one, minus Nightwing, the rest are equiv)
New Mutants
Thunderbolts
JLA (the new one, if memory serves, it lacks batman and superman, the two
major imbalancers, but does have green lantern)
> Superboy and Bouncing Boy, LSH.
> Robin and Raven, Teen Titans.
> The Atom and Superman, JLA.
> Hawkeye and Thor, Avengers.
>
Only one of these that is still an issue is the last one.
> Another problem which comes with high power levels is the 'do everything'
> hero. If every hero is strong on offense, strong on defense, strong on
> skills, strong on movement, the team tends to become more look-alike. Lower
> power levels force specialisation and interdependance, especially at first.
> It also gives the characters more room to grow.
I've noticed the exact opposite.
When you're lower power, everybody takes the same basic stuff needed
to get by, then runs out of points before they can go much into development.
At higher point totals you can get very diverse in what abilities
you can choose from. The power and skill lists are very long, so you only
get stuck copying each other when the points get absurdly high and you
start running low on ideas.
Higher point totals allow for a wider set of options. There
are numerous concepts that take large point investments to be feasable. With
enough points they can be done and still balance in power level wise with the
rest of the crowd. On lower point they either can't be done, or cripple a
character if done.
On the other hand, the few concepts that fit lower point totals still
work at higher totals, they just have more room to delve into background,
or expand out the concept.
I would say the breakdown needs to be more like:
Golden Age: 250
Silver Age: 300-600+
Modern: 300-350
The current system actually does fit the rather bland characters of
the golden age. Though I notice that Golden Age of Champions had an average
above 250...
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:45:40 -0800
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger)
Subject: Re: Templates - Background Plug-Ins
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David Fair wrote:
>A. The length of the list (too long, too short)
Way, way too long. The Plug-ins don't need to be anywhere near as specific
as you have them. Pretty much any entertainer can be called an Entertainer,
for instance, just changing the PS from Actor to Dancer.
>C. Unneeded Entries
Financier, Banker and Stockbroker? Again, these can easily be folded into
one plug-in.
>D. Anything else you want to say.
We really don't need over 100 different background plug-ins. There are
some backgrounds that are definitely needed, like Reporter (Superman),
Doctor (Thor and Dr. Strange), and Businessman (Iron Man and Batman).
I would guess that there should be 20-30 of these packages, covering
all of the major background groups. This could easily cover the more
popular backgrounds, and if a player wanted something off of the list,
they could compare what they wanted to a similar plug-in.
Richard
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Templates - Background Plug-Ins
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:49:32 -0800
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I have a number of these already scoped out, at
http://www.geocities.com/area51/cavern/1905/haym16.html. Only about 1/3
are on-line yet, but by the end of next week, they should all be
uploaded.
These packages are uploaded now:
Actor
Salesman
Schoolteacher
Explorer
Politician
Archaeologist
Artist
Athlete
Gymnast
Martial Artist
Programmer
Linguist
Detective
Scientist
Mercenary
Urban Commando
Kid
Sporting Goods Store Manager
Starship Engineer
Security Guy
Psychologist
Businessman
Paramedic
Locksmith
These packages soon will be uploaded:
Standup Comedian
Professional Wrestler
Paranormal Investigator
Doctor
Codebreaker
Secretary
Newsroom Reporter
Lawyer
Investigative Reporter
Supers Reporter
Musician/Dancer
Engineering Student
Cab Driver
Jack of All Trades
Diplomat
Inventor
Pilot
Mechanic
Patrol Policeman
Undercover Policeman
Lab Tech Policeman
Con Man
Thief
Soldier
Rescue Worker
Celebrity
Spy
Gambler
Stage Magician
Smuggler
Fantasy Knight
Fantasy Thief
Fantasy Wizard
Fantasy Cleric
Fantasy Barbarian
Criminal Mastermind
Leader
Cultist
Gunslinger
Craftsman
Holy Man / Guru
Gangster
Dave Mattingly
http://www.geocities.com/area51/cavern/1905/pwrpnt.html
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: San Angelo:City of Heros
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:01:43 -0800 (PST)
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>
>
> Is this out yet ? Lone Star in Dallas says that they haven't got it from
> their distributor (Chessex).
>
Don't think it is.
Let's check the website...
This from their page:
San Angelo: City of Heroes, the flagship book in our new campaign
series for Champions 4th Edition, is in layouts! You can download the
first two chapters and see what all the excitement is about.
Unfortunately, additional delays in the production have pushed the
release back to March, '98, but it's shaping up to be one heck of a
great book, and it's just the first in a series of Champions
supplements we have planned, so stay tuned!
Call your retailer or distributor and put in your order today, because
this one is going to sell quickly! Watch for our San Angelo ads in
Shadis, the Games Quarterly Catalog, Comics Retailer and Kurt
Busiek's Astro City!
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Template point breakdowns
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:04:56 -0800 (PST)
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Speaking of Templates, where are we going to do the point's breakdowns?
All we have as a fact is that the average BBB character has
stats of 120-130 or so points.
I sent off an A through G list of suggestions. Anyone like any of
those or have a counter suggestion?
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Body from Ego Attacks
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:09:12 -0800 (PST)
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> >>>The STUN damage from Flash attacks would be a Susceptibility (check
> >>
> >> Okay... So how do I get the number of dice in the Susceptibility to
> >>always match the number of dice in the attack?
> >
> >Make the susc. like this:
> >
> >Susceptability: Takes 1d6 STUN per 1d6 (Visual) Flash Used against him
> >
> >This is probably Uncommon (5 Points), and the damage would be assessed
> >only on the characters phases (again, probably) for a total of 15 points.
>
> 1. Visual Flashes are Uncommon in your campaign? I call them Common,
> and if each *die* is counted as an occurrence, it's probably Very Common.
> 2. The effect is Instant. This is worth +0 points, not +10.
> 3. Most relevently, there is no "damage per die" option in
> Susceptibility. Only Vulnerability gives problems proportional to the
> effect.
Exactly.
It could be done by getting a X2 vuln to flash, with a house ruling that
the second multiple goes after your stun/body stat. Heck, I'm of half a mind to
suggest such an option for 5th edition.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:56:03 -0800
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger)
Subject: Re: Template point breakdowns
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Rook wrote:
>Speaking of Templates, where are we going to do the point's breakdowns?
>All we have as a fact is that the average BBB character has
>stats of 120-130 or so points.
I feel that the Stat Base should show the minimum stats that the character
would have, rather than the average. The Strong archetype should have a 35-40
strength, and then most of the Brick-type plug-ins (Giant, Body of X,
Battlesuit, etc.) would give an additional 15-20 strength. Same with
the Athletic (possibly renamed Quick?) archetype and DEX/Speed: a base of
18-20 and 4, and plug-in bonuses of +6-10 and +2.
This way we don't have to worry about negative modifiers to the base
stats (which would be a big no-no, IMHO). We can also build the archetypes
on less points.
My suggestions (without having calculated the bases) for point breakdows
would be:
Archetype Strong/Quick Thinker/Average
Stat Base 130 100
Minor 30 30
Major 60 60
Augmented 90 90
Background 15 15
Customizable 15 15
The Strong/Quick archetypes could have 3 minor, 1 major+1 minor, or
one augmented. The Thinker/Average could have 4 minor, 2 major, 1 major+
2 minor, or 1 augmented+1 minor.
How does this sound?
Richard
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
>> Except that it cannot exist as a game mechanic because there is no
>> "touch" sense group.
BG> Do you know this for certain?
Yes. There is no touch sense group in my copies of the BBB, HSR, or
Champions Deluxe. It might exist in a future edition, but it does not
exist right now.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
TRG> Invisibility to the Unusual Senses Group was disallowed as of
TRG> HSA2. It will probably be the same in 5th edition. It was in Steve
TRG> Peterson's article, IIRC.
While for the most part I disagree with the HSAs, this makes a hell of a
lot of sense -- and eliminates the problem under discussion.
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Limited Power, 5th Ed. (long)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:48:11 -0800
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On Thursday, February 12, 1998 8:24 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 11:12 AM 2/10/1998 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>>On Monday, February 09, 1998 9:17 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>><snip>
>>>>Multiform
>>>> All Forms Share END, STUN and BODY: -1/2
>>>
>>> Personally, I'm of a mind that this should be the default.
(Isn'tit
>>>already?)
>>
>>No. If it was, then killing one duplicate would kill them all.
>
> How'd we get from Multiform to Duplication all of a sudden?
Sorry. The same effect was recommended for Duplication in the original
post, and I got them confused. It is already the default for
Multipower, but not for Duplication.
Filksinger
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Champions Mages
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>>>>> "JaRP" == John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net> writes:
JaRP> True, but a 'properly' done mage will likely know several languages,
JaRP> not to mention several highly _relevant_ knowledge skills. [...]
Again, I say that you are building the character "wrong". You are
attempting to build an experienced character on a point base intended for
supers that are just starting their superheroic careers.
Start with around 75 points in characteristics, and another 75-100 for a
power framework of some sort, either a Multipower or VPP. In a 250-point
campaign you have 75-100 left with which to buy most of the niggling little
things that every mage should have that do not fit in the framework. And
remember to apply the "only vs. magical effects" limitation when
appropriate.
Yes, he is not going to be as potent or diverse as an experienced
character. He is *NOT* an experienced character.
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Templates - Background Plug-Ins
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:54:26 -0800
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On Thursday, February 12, 1998 9:15 AM, David Fair wrote:
>The following is the list of background/profession plug-ins that I
have
>been able to come up with. Please give your thoughts as to:
> A. The length of the list (too long, too short)
> B. Glaring Omissions
> C. Unneeded Entries
> D. Anything else you want to say.
Only thing that leaps out at me is computer professionals who aren't
programmers. Network Administrator should certainly be a form that
requires an entire package, if help-desk-type-technical support
doesn't.
Maybe computer programmer should have several options, and be turned
into Computer Professional.
Filksinger
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Champions Mages
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>>>>> "DM" == Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com> writes:
>> 90 Point VPP??? 90 Point VPP??? Great jumping Jehosaphat, man!!
DM> 90 gives him enough room to comfortably hold a good attack and defense
DM> in the pool.
You can do that in a 60-75 point pool. Remember, as far as VPPs are
concerned, the sum of the real cost of all the powers in the pool must fit
within the pool. With a 60-point pool and a total of -1 in limitations,
one can fit two 60 active point powers, a 12D6 EB and a 30PD/30ED Force
Field, for instance.
I would recomend reducing the size of the pool and spending those points on
something more useful, like an Endurance Reserve for the spells in the
pool.
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\ Earth, presumably from outer space.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Changing the Standard in 5th (Re: Templates Discussion)
Mail-Copies-To: never
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>>>>> "TB" == Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> writes:
TB> On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Sam Bell wrote:
>> "250 points is a great level for Silver and Golden Age campaigns."???
TB> Take out the Silver Age part and he's right. Have you read the
TB> description of Superman's abilities from his first appearance?
"Faster than a speeding bullet" (he could run fast). "More powerful than a
locomotive" (really strong, too). "Able to leap tall buildings in a single
bound" (and lots of superleap). Add a reasonable ammount of resistant
defenses to stop bullets and such.
In short, Superman is a fairly generic brick.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Detect Invisiblity
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>>>>> "DPL" == Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> writes:
>> Detects are not "defenses", they are "attacks" inasmuch as they attempt
>> to find something. See my just posted message on this.
DPL> Let's get something straight...
Yes, let us do so.
When one encloses a word in quotation marks, it is an indication that he is
deliberately misusing that word.
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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:06:01 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Changing the Standard in 5th (Re: Templates Discussion)
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On 12 Feb 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> TB> On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Sam Bell wrote:
> >> "250 points is a great level for Silver and Golden Age campaigns."???
>
> TB> Take out the Silver Age part and he's right. Have you read the
> TB> description of Superman's abilities from his first appearance?
>
> "Faster than a speeding bullet" (he could run fast). "More powerful than a
> locomotive" (really strong, too). "Able to leap tall buildings in a single
> bound" (and lots of superleap). Add a reasonable ammount of resistant
> defenses to stop bullets and such.
>
> In short, Superman is a fairly generic brick.
Actually rat, what you have there came later. Here is Supe's powers in
his intial appearence:
Leap an 1/8th of a mile, hurdle a 20 story building, run faster than a
train, lift great weights and only a 'bursting shell' can penetrate his
skin...
A pretty typical 250 point brick. Especially if you consider his DEX to
be around 15 to 18 and his Speed to be 4. He didn't have a super high INT
or PRE either.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 13:19:03 -0800
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger)
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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Rat wrote:
>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
>TRG> Invisibility to the Unusual Senses Group was disallowed as of
>TRG> HSA2. It will probably be the same in 5th edition. It was in Steve
>TRG> Peterson's article, IIRC.
>While for the most part I disagree with the HSAs, this makes a hell of a lot of
>sense -- and eliminates the problem under discussion.
It should probably have a magnifying glass or stop sign, rather than
being disallowed completely.
I can see Invisibility to Detect Magic coming in very handy as a
sort of "Aura of No Magic" spell, used to disguise the fact that
something is, in fact, magical.
Richard
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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 13:37:38 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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Richard G Schwerdtfeger writes:
>
> It should probably have a magnifying glass or stop sign, rather than
> being disallowed completely.
>
> I can see Invisibility to Detect Magic coming in very handy as a
> sort of "Aura of No Magic" spell, used to disguise the fact that
> something is, in fact, magical.
Nothing was said to disallow invisibility to _specific_ things in the unusual
sense group -- just to being invisible to the _entire_ unusual sense group.
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Template point breakdowns
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:37:14 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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>
> Rook wrote:
>
> >Speaking of Templates, where are we going to do the point's breakdowns?
>
> >All we have as a fact is that the average BBB character has
> >stats of 120-130 or so points.
>
> My suggestions (without having calculated the bases) for point breakdows
> would be:
>
> Archetype Strong/Quick Thinker/Average
> Stat Base 130 100
> Minor 30 30
> Major 60 60
> Augmented 90 90
> Background 15 15
> Customizable 15 15
>
Only problem here is that the stat bases need to have a universal cost.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:46:59 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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At 09:56 AM 2/12/1998 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:
>> >> More importantly, how is Detect Invisibility affected by
Invisibility to
>> >>Detect?
>> >
>> >I don't allow an overall Invisibility to Detect. To have Invisibility
>> >to Detect, one must buy Invisibility to Detect X, where X is clearly
>> >defined.
>>
>> So would the needed Power be Detect Invisibility to Detect Invisible,
>> then?
>
> Well, then we go back to having
>Invisibility to detect 'invisibility to detect invisible'.
>Which of course is detected by...
>
> And that just starts to get out of hand.
Ah, Brian becomes the first to make his Detect Stupidity PER Roll! ;-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:47:54 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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At 03:36 PM 2/12/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
>
>>> Except that it cannot exist as a game mechanic because there is no
>>> "touch" sense group.
>
>BG> Do you know this for certain?
>
>Yes. There is no touch sense group in my copies of the BBB, HSR, or
>Champions Deluxe. It might exist in a future edition, but it does not
>exist right now.
Uh... Rat? Take a second look at the subject header that this topic
has been discussed under.
---
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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:54:08 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Body from Ego Attacks
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At 11:09 AM 2/12/1998 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:
>> >>>The STUN damage from Flash attacks would be a Susceptibility (check
>> >>
>> >> Okay... So how do I get the number of dice in the Susceptibility to
>> >>always match the number of dice in the attack?
>> >
>> >Make the susc. like this:
>> >
>> >Susceptability: Takes 1d6 STUN per 1d6 (Visual) Flash Used against him
>> >
>> >This is probably Uncommon (5 Points), and the damage would be assessed
>> >only on the characters phases (again, probably) for a total of 15 points.
>>
>> 1. Visual Flashes are Uncommon in your campaign? I call them Common,
>> and if each *die* is counted as an occurrence, it's probably Very Common.
>> 2. The effect is Instant. This is worth +0 points, not +10.
>> 3. Most relevently, there is no "damage per die" option in
>> Susceptibility. Only Vulnerability gives problems proportional to the
>> effect.
>
> Exactly.
>It could be done by getting a X2 vuln to flash, with a house ruling that
>the second multiple goes after your stun/body stat. Heck, I'm of half a
mind to
>suggest such an option for 5th edition.
I already have in several sources (on the List just now, with Steve Long
lurking; in the mansucript for TUSV; and on my questionnaire).
---
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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:59:25 -0800
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger)
Subject: Re: Template point breakdowns
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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Rook wrote:
>I wrote:
>> Archetype Strong/Quick Thinker/Average
>> Stat Base 130 100
>> Minor 30 30
>> Major 60 60
>> Augmented 90 90
>> Background 15 15
>> Customizable 15 15
>Only problem here is that the stat bases need to have a universal cost.
Why?
I was under the impression that some people's problem with this
system is that some characters are inherently more stat-heavy
than others (i.e. Bricks vs. Mentalists). Instead of either cutting
down some stat bases, or inordinately pumping up others, why not
have two different price breaks?
This way, Strong or Quick archetype characters get 130 points of
stats, 90 points of power plug-ins, 15 in background and 15 extra.
Thinker or Average archetype characters get 100 points of stats,
120 points of power plug-ins, 15 in background and 15 extra.
On the other hand, if you can build minimum stat bases for all
four archetypes for 100 points, then by all means, go ahead.
But don't forget...you can always make a "Quickness" 30 point
plug-in of +5 DEX and +1 Speed (or whatever). We don't have to
have all of the stat bases having a 20 DEX and a 6 Speed, and
IMO, none of them should. This system should make it possible
to play anywhere on the DEX/Speed scale that the GM wants. I
have always preferred lower scores, because that way I have points
for all those other things that the characters need, rather than
having so many points tied up in Speed.
Like I said in my previous message, I have not done the homework to
build stat frameworks to base my ideas on, and I probably won't. But I
would like to see this project get done.
Richard
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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 18:39:04 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Champions Mages
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>>Big deal. 'Written out and approved' is a standard GM requirement for
>>VPP players to avoid arguments and time consuming math.
>
>Good arguments. All I know is that my GM (Mike Nunn at the time)
>approved it in the game he ran.
Ah. Well, whatever you can get away with, I guess ^_^.
>We could go on about this (which I wouldn't mind), but it seems that
>we've agreed that a supermage can be done on 250. In your case, you'd
>take some of the VPP cost and put it towards INT, EGO, and some more
>skills.
Oh, it can be done, but just never to my complete satisfaction. I can build
satisfactory Bricks, Energy Projectors, Speedsters, Teleporters, Gadgeteers,
etc. ad nauseum on 250 (hey, I can even build a Time Manipulator on 250,
remember that thread, anyone?), but satisfaction eludes me with Mages and
Telepaths at that level. It's a wee bit frustrating, as that extra 25-50
points would do the trick sooo well. Part of the problem is that mages need
decent stats in several attributes that you can't ignore: DEX, EGO, INT and
PRE. And there's more than a few powers you simply can't fit into a VPP
(Pow/Mental Defense, Sense Magic, etc). It's the scholarly stuff that really
gets me, I suppose. The 'essential' knowledge skills and languages eat up
more than a few points.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
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From: "Ron Abitz" <ronald@centraltx.net>
Subject: Re: I can't see your face.
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 18:02:12 -0600
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----------
> From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
> > Now, the why of the first band.
> > Justice is to be served, and the unjust must be punished,
> > regardless of who they are, regardless of what station they hold in
> > society, and regardless of what connections they may have with the
> > punisher of the wrong.
> > The band blocks out a face, dehumanizing the target, making the
> > personal easier to kill. It also conceals the identy of the wrong
doer,
> > allowing the punisher to kill without hesitation, even though that
person
> > in reality could be the punsiher's father, mother, brother, greatest
love,
> > etc. The only thing the punsiher sees is the wrong deed, and the
target
> > to be killed.
> > In other words, the only discriminatory sense the punisher has is
> > the Detect Injustice sense... and for her job, that's all that
matters.
> >
> The one band could simply be phys: blind, IAF.
> Meaning take a phys lim that majorly impares, some of the time.
>
> Then one band gives regen, and the last Detect injustice, discrim,
> sense, ranged.
>
I whould just give the detect the limitation when used all people
look/sound the same. -1 lim?
Ron Abitz
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:12:01 -0800
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On Thursday, February 12, 1998 12:49 PM, Richard G Schwerdtfeger
wrote:
>Rat wrote:
>
>>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
>>TRG> Invisibility to the Unusual Senses Group was disallowed as
of
>>TRG> HSA2. It will probably be the same in 5th edition. It was in
Steve
>>TRG> Peterson's article, IIRC.
>
>>While for the most part I disagree with the HSAs, this makes a hell
of a lot of
>>sense -- and eliminates the problem under discussion.
>
>It should probably have a magnifying glass or stop sign, rather than
>being disallowed completely.
>
>I can see Invisibility to Detect Magic coming in very handy as a
>sort of "Aura of No Magic" spell, used to disguise the fact that
>something is, in fact, magical.
I'd require this to be Images, only to create an image of nothing
there.
This allows for a lot of possibilities:
"My suppression field will mask the energy signature, making it
impossible to detect.", followed by, "There! See, I told you something
was there. It was just masked."
"But there is no magic here, master." "Look more closely, apprentice.
That is what someone _wants_ you to think."
"I can't find the ship's generator's neutrino signature." "Its
probably masked. Search this area carefully. We must find them!"
A true Invisibility, or Invisible Power Effects, shouldn't be perfect.
A sufficiently advanced searcher (whether mystical, technological, or
other) should be able to overcome it.
Filksinger
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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:17:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Templates - Background Plug-Ins
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Filksinger writes:
> Only thing that leaps out at me is computer professionals who aren't
> programmers. Network Administrator should certainly be a form that
> requires an entire package, if help-desk-type-technical support
> doesn't.
>
> Maybe computer programmer should have several options, and be turned
> into Computer Professional.
Within the context of comic-book level of detail, there is no difference.
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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:59:18 -0800
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger)
Subject: Re: Templates - Background Plug-Ins
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Anthony wrote, responding to Filksinger:
>Within the context of comic-book level of detail, there is no difference.
This is something that we really need to remember when we are making
up these lists of comic-book professions. Not every job deserves a
separate background package. To take some examples from David's list,
does there really need to be game-based differences between a Dentist
and a Hygienist? A Hitman and an Enforcer? A Carpenter, a Handyman, a
Foreman and a Laborer? Or, like I mentioned in another post, a Banker,
a Financier, and a Stockbroker?
Pointwise and comic-book genre-wise, does it really matter?
Richard
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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 19:00:01 -0600
From: Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org>
Cc: 5th@sedl.org, Edition:@id.sedl.org, effects@sedl.org, Re:@id.sedl.org,
reduction@sedl.org, Special@sedl.org
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Richard G Schwerdtfeger wrote:
>Rat wrote:
>
>>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
>>TRG> Invisibility to the Unusual Senses Group was disallowed as of
>>TRG> HSA2. It will probably be the same in 5th edition. It was in Steve
>>TRG> Peterson's article, IIRC.
>
>>While for the most part I disagree with the HSAs, this makes a hell of a
>>lot of sense -- and eliminates the problem under discussion.
>
>It should probably have a magnifying glass or stop sign, rather than
>being disallowed completely.
>
>I can see Invisibility to Detect Magic coming in very handy as a
>sort of "Aura of No Magic" spell, used to disguise the fact that
>something is, in fact, magical.
Uhh.
Invisibility to the entire Unusual Senses "Group" isn't allowed, but
buying the "Magical Sense Group" is most emphatically allowed (you and
your GM have to decide what constitutes that group, of course). The
AD&D non-detection spell would probably work just as well as Darkness
vs Magical Detection Spells (another reasonable sense group, imo).
Donald
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From: bquinlan@october.com (Bob Quinlan)
Date: 12 Feb 98 17:45:10 -0800
Subject: Red October Transfer
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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The Red October web site and file archive is now available at its new
address. Please change your bookmarks to point to
http://www.mactyre.net/october/ and start using the new site now.
Thanks to the Mactyres for taking up the torch!
--Bob Q
--
bquinlan@october.com
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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 18:13:08 -0800
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger)
Subject: Re: <no subject>
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Donald Tsang wrote:
>Invisibility to the entire Unusual Senses "Group" isn't allowed
Sorry. My bad. Saw the word "group" in the original post, but it
didn't register as that...I read it as "disallowing Invisibility
to Unusual Senses".
Again, sorry.
Richard
(PS: I do like the idea of using Images instead of Invisibility
for the effect I was looking for...Thanks, Filksinger)
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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 19:04:03 -0800
From: Clinton Chard <chud@pioneer.net>
Subject: Re: Changing the Standard in 5th (Re: Templates Discussion)
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Lizard wrote:
> >> Look. Power is all relative. So if you up the base hero to 400
> points, then
> >> Joe Viper Agent will be at 200 points, and Larry The Mugger will
> be at 100
> >> points. It's like multiplying the score at a pinball game by ten
> without
> >> changing gameplay at all. A bumper which once gave 10 points now
> gives 100,
> >> then 1000 -- but it's the same relative to your final score.
> >
> > Not necessarily. What I'm arguing is that at 250 points there is
> >not enough difference between the Supers and the normals.
>
> A 250 point super is more than TEN TIMES as powerful as a 25 point
> normal, since points aren't linear. The rule I remember is every 50
> points is a doubling of power, so a 250 point character is 32 times
> as powerful as a 0 point character.
>
I had interpreted the rules to mean every +5 points doubled the power. A
STR of 10 could lift 100 kg, STR 15 could lift 200 kg, etc...Same with
growth, density increase...
--
"Contrariwise," Continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be; and if it
were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." -Lewis
Carroll
Clinton Chard
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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 22:39:26 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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> >While for the most part I disagree with the HSAs, this makes a hell of a lot of
> >sense -- and eliminates the problem under discussion.
>
> It should probably have a magnifying glass or stop sign, rather than
> being disallowed completely.
There is no plausible reason to allow "Invis Vs. Unusual Sense
Group", Stop Sign or not. It's not a cohesive enough group to be uder one
SFX. On the other hgand, the article talked about allowing other sense
groups, if they are needed. For instance, there may be a Thermal or
Magnetic sense group that one can buy invisibility to and flash against.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 00:49:58 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Subject: Finds at Winter Wars
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Well, back from an exciting, if a trifling disapointing Winter
Wars. Kudos to Mr. McKinney for a fine convention.
I was a bit disappointed as to the lack of Hero System games, save
for a free for all 250pt character combat, something I wasn't quite in the
mood for. (I can build a decently Rules-Stretched character, why do I
need to prove how well I can do it?) As always, AD&D seemed to have no
problems getting players, I didn't really care. (Though it was nice to
have a full-up Paranoia game I was in Shushed by the AD&Ders)
Anyway, found some nice items in the cheap bins of one store. If
anyone has any comments on these items, let me know. (Stuff like their
usefulness, their problems, how convertable, etc.)
1) School of Hard Knocks- GURPS Supers adventure that I already
have the Champions conversions for. $1
2) GURPS Superscum. Looked semi-useful. Anyone have any
conversions and/or know how to do GURPS -> Hero 4th conversions? $2
3) Roadkill -- I'd lost my old copy, so this was a nice cheap
replacement for a product I refused to spend cover price for a second
time. $2
4) Shadows Over Scotland -- Old Hero System product. Danger
International or Justice Inc, I think. $1
5) Primus and Demon -- Old edition product in decent condition $2
6) One other old Espionage! module, can't remember the name. $1
7) HSA2. I've been waiting a while on my own copy of this one. $7
8) Beat up copy of Fantasy Hero -- time to start converting oodles
of old AD&D modules. $10.
Anyway. Can anyone help me on the older products and the GURPS
book?
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 00:53:38 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Subject: TFOS new edition.
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A little off-topic, but I finally own a "Fuzion-Powered" product.
I won a copy of the new printing/edition of Teenagers From Outer
Space at Winter Wars, and it includes "Fuzion-Powered" on the cover. The
rules are exactly the same, heck, the text is almost exactly the same, but
they added "conversion to Fuzion" notes on one sidebar. That said, they
should work OK. [Evil plotting on getting my Champs 4th characters stuck
in Ranma-World]
I do have to say that I think having a strong publisher/game
company behind our favorite game can only help. Even though Fuzion
products have to be converted, the conversions are on the Hero Web Site.
And visually, these RTG-published products look *great*.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 02:14:01 -0500 (EST)
From: THE MAD HARLEQUIN <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: I can't see your face.
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Justice is blind... or at least partially.
An NPC I'm creating has a Foci that blocks out the Discriminatory
part of most of her senses, so, when she judges people, she does so
by their actions rather than their relationship to her.
People, to hear, appear as faceless manequin looking shapes, all gray.
Any suggestions?
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From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com>
Subject: Re: Finds at Winter Wars
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 1:30:20 CST
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> Well, back from an exciting, if a trifling disapointing Winter
> Wars. Kudos to Mr. McKinney for a fine convention.
Thanks, I guess. Remind me not to have you serve as toastmaster when
I'm asked to join the Strategist's Club... (like that will ever happen)
> I was a bit disappointed as to the lack of Hero System games, save
> for a free for all 250pt character combat, something I wasn't quite in the
> mood for. (I can build a decently Rules-Stretched character, why do I
> need to prove how well I can do it?) As always, AD&D seemed to have no
> problems getting players, I didn't really care. (Though it was nice to
> have a full-up Paranoia game I was in Shushed by the AD&Ders)
Well, unfortunately, our convention was haunted by two groups: one, a local
group of formerly-hard core HERO folks stress testing their "new" RPG
(since FUZION means HERO is dead, and they'll believe the "rumor" about
fifth edition when they see it) - that was the "RPM" guys - and if you
noticed, one half of the RPM folks ran the "Saturday Morning Slugfest",
which was more successful this year then ever before (last year, we had
four people in that game, and almost didn't schedule it this year).
The other group, about a year ahead of the RPM guys, were commercial this
year - Tyger Volant. Frightingly, an examination of both RPM and Omniquest
(TY's system) shows a LOT of similiarity, and both also show their HERO
heritage. Our convention's previous HERO strengths (Chad Brinkley was
part of this group six years ago) are totally gone, except for the
Convention Chairman's personal gaming group (those 12 guys in the purple
"staff" badges - that's my personal gaming group plus four others).
And, even worse, promised support from Gold Rush Games and R. Talsorian
never arrived, so I gave away certificates for free entry to next year's
Winter War instead of the copies of the Omniquest and RPM rules both
groups offered to use as prizes. (And the WEG guys actually gave away
a bunch of Star Wars stuff to the several Traveller games that ran, after
the Traveller GMs asked me the question in front of their table).
So, other than the games I personally enjoy (SFB, Republic of Rome,
Empires of the Middle Ages and HERO), the con went great. In the five
years I've been Chairman, this is the first year my wife has been able
to game (she's held together the registration desk), and she won the
Settlers of Catan tournament (and yes, Mayfair sent gift certificates).
Oh - and Tim - I hope you liked the room on the third floor for RPGs,
that's where they'll be next year for the entire convention...
DonM.
PS: Comments and laments about small convention organizations always
welcome.
--
=========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist dmckinne@cmi.csc.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 6-8, 1998 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org (217) 469-9917 =
=========================================================================
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From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com>
Subject: Re: TFOS new edition.
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 1:33:06 CST
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> A little off-topic, but I finally own a "Fuzion-Powered" product.
>
> I won a copy of the new printing/edition of Teenagers From Outer
> Space at Winter Wars, and it includes "Fuzion-Powered" on the cover. The
> rules are exactly the same, heck, the text is almost exactly the same, but
> they added "conversion to Fuzion" notes on one sidebar. That said, they
> should work OK. [Evil plotting on getting my Champs 4th characters stuck
> in Ranma-World]
Oops! That's right, R. Talsorian did send two copies of the new edition
of TFOS. So, I was wrong in my previous response, and I owe R. Talsorian
a public apology.
> I do have to say that I think having a strong publisher/game
> company behind our favorite game can only help. Even though Fuzion
> products have to be converted, the conversions are on the Hero Web Site.
> And visually, these RTG-published products look *great*.
Um - but when you open up C:TNM, the contents aren't. I want the
Champions Universe back. I want Foxbat. I want Obsidian.
DonM.
--
=========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist dmckinne@cmi.csc.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 6-8, 1998 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org (217) 469-9917 =
=========================================================================
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From: GoldRushG@aol.com
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 05:24:27 EST
Subject: Re: Finds at Winter Wars
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<< And, even worse, promised support from Gold Rush Games and R. Talsorian
never arrived >>
I have to bite the bullet and take personal responsibility for that screwup.
We have a number of product earmarked for convention support. Unfortunately I
ended up with two lists, and the list I had going by didn't have Winter Wars
on it. I do humbly apologize. I'm almost afraid to ask <G>, but what can we do
to make up for our failure to deliver as promised?
Mark @ GRG
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From: GoldRushG@aol.com
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 05:32:05 EST
Subject: Free Product Program for Retailers!
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GRG ANNOUNCES FREE PRODUCT PROGRAM FOR RETAILERS
February 13, 1998
(Elk Grove, CA) Gold Rush Games announced the implementation of a Free Product
Program for retailers. Under this new program, retailers who write to Gold
Rush Games will receive free product. The first such product in the program is
the Champions Deluxe hardback game book.
"We're very excited to offer this program to retailers," said company
president Mark Arsenault. "With this program, any retailer who writes to us
and provides the requisite information will receive one free copy of the
Champions 4th Edition RPG. They can use this as a give-a-way to a valued
customer, use it as a prize in a raffle, or offer it for sale."
The new Free Product program is intended to raise awareness of product lines
manufactured and supported by Gold Rush Games. Through the program, Gold Rush
Games hopes to stimulate sales of both it's existing products as well as
upcoming products. There is a one product limit per customer, and supplies are
limited.
"We're not undercutting the distributor," Mark continued. "Just the opposite.
But encouraging retailers to try a product, our goal is to increase sales by
raising awareness of the products we have to offer. We're starting with
Champions because we want retailers to know that the Hero System is not going
away. Far from it, in fact!"
Interested retailers should contact Gold Rush Games and include the following
information: Store name; shipping address; telephone and fax number; Reseller
or sales permit #; E-mail address (if applicable). Write to: Gold Rush Games,
PO Box 2531, Elk Grove, CA 95759-2531, or e-mail the info to
GoldRushG@aol.com.
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Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 05:00:25 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Organization: Satan's Children
Subject: Re: Champions Mages
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John and Ron Prins wrote:
> >We could go on about this (which I wouldn't mind), but it seems that
> >we've agreed that a supermage can be done on 250. In your case, you'd
> >take some of the VPP cost and put it towards INT, EGO, and some more
> >skills.
>
> Oh, it can be done, but just never to my complete satisfaction. I can build
> satisfactory Bricks, Energy Projectors, Speedsters, Teleporters, Gadgeteers,
> etc. ad nauseum on 250 (hey, I can even build a Time Manipulator on 250,
> remember that thread, anyone?), but satisfaction eludes me with Mages and
> Telepaths at that level. It's a wee bit frustrating, as that extra 25-50
> points would do the trick sooo well. Part of the problem is that mages need
> decent stats in several attributes that you can't ignore: DEX, EGO, INT and
> PRE. And there's more than a few powers you simply can't fit into a VPP
> (Pow/Mental Defense, Sense Magic, etc). It's the scholarly stuff that really
> gets me, I suppose. The 'essential' knowledge skills and languages eat up
> more than a few points.
You're own arguements work against you; since the NORM for team RPGs
is to have characters all at basically the same power level, then being
able to build satisfactory bricks, speedsters and Time Manipulators
should tell you that 'requiring' more points to build a mage is a
non-sequitor. The mage should be able to be built on the same points as
the 'satisfactory' examples of the other archetypes. I believe there
are two stumbling blocks you give yourself that you don't need to.
1)Skills. Knowledges and magic skills and other stuff do NOT need to
take up huge amounts of points. In a Superhero World, many of those
'necessary' skills just aren't that costly, since their utility is
limited. Also, knowledge skills can be bought as very general overviews
or very in-depth but narrowly defined topics. Three or four broad
categories of Mage-Specific knowledges can be nearly as useful and much
cheaper than ten or twelve very narrow categories. Basically there is
no need to get too specific when the overall campaign is not centered
primarily on those areas, which most Superhero campaigns won't be.
2)If you still deem it necessary to spend lots of points on skills,
then it is the nature of the beast to give up power or ability from
elsewhere for those points. That's all there is to it. If the points
spent on knowledges/skills are not deemed appropriate compensation for
lower power levels, then the skills are being overestimated in terms of
utility and by association, cost (see point #1).
And another thing; Remember that both mages and EGOists generally
should have near-'normal' stats; they are not, by archetype, physical
combatants, thus DEX, SPD, defenses and STR will probably be on the very
low end of the spectrum. This, of course, can all be compensated by
having spells to supplement defense such as force field/wall, or even
Characteristic boosting magics, or focussed abilities; armour, magical
items to boost SPD or STR, etc.
I don't imagine that a satisfactory speedster built on 250 points
will be comparable to The Flash, neither should a 250-point mage be
comparable to Dr. Strange, nor a 250-point EGOist comparable to
Psyloch. Mages should generally either be somewhat non-combative, or
more heavily reliant on keeping magics active; or be built as a
relatively normal archetype of another catagory with magic as SFX.
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 05:31:16 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Finds at Winter Wars
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At 12:49 AM 2/13/1998 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> Anyway, found some nice items in the cheap bins of one store. If
>anyone has any comments on these items, let me know. (Stuff like their
>usefulness, their problems, how convertable, etc.)
I only have feedback on three:
> 3) Roadkill -- I'd lost my old copy, so this was a nice cheap
>replacement for a product I refused to spend cover price for a second
>time. $2
You were probably wise in both refusing to pay full price, and buying it
at the reduced price. Road Kill isn't the most inspired supervillain group
Hero's ever come out with, but they're not 100% useless either. In fact,
they're quite good for a darkly humorous adventure.
> 7) HSA2. I've been waiting a while on my own copy of this one. $7
This was a steal. The new rules in the first section (covering Change
Environment, Requires Skill Roll, and Sense-related abilities) are very
good, and if you don't like them for inclusion in your game they'll
probably at least get you thinking about some things. The write-ups of
UNTIL and the former SAT are very helpful for any game set in the Champions
Universe (or one closely related to it).
> 8) Beat up copy of Fantasy Hero -- time to start converting oodles
>of old AD&D modules. $10.
I'm in the small minority of people who actually like the magic system
presented there. But then again, a fantasy campaign is best when it uses a
magic system tailored to the world in which it takes place. The given one
(expanded upon in both of the two Companions) is designed to be fairly
generic.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 08:33:53 -0600 (CST)
Subject: I can't see your face.
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Umm, sounds like a special effect, or possibly a disad.
What does she do when she 'judges' people ?
Curt
> From: THE MAD HARLEQUIN <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
>
> Justice is blind... or at least partially.
> An NPC I'm creating has a Foci that blocks out the Discriminatory
> part of most of her senses, so, when she judges people, she does so
> by their actions rather than their relationship to her.
> People, to hear, appear as faceless manequin looking shapes, all gray.
> Any suggestions?
>
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Subject: Re: Templates - Background Plug-Ins
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:48:06 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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On 2/12/98 7:59 PM Richard G Schwerdtfeger (RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com)
Said:
>
>This is something that we really need to remember when we are making
>up these lists of comic-book professions. Not every job deserves a
>separate background package. To take some examples from David's list,
>does there really need to be game-based differences between a Dentist
>and a Hygienist? A Hitman and an Enforcer? A Carpenter, a Handyman, a
>Foreman and a Laborer? Or, like I mentioned in another post, a Banker,
>a Financier, and a Stockbroker?
There's alot of truth here, but I had thought that the templates were to
be used for PC's & NPC's in Superheroic _and Heroic_ campaigns (this
despite the fact that all of the current discussions on templates focus
on using powers). If I am wrong, then the list is far too detailed for
SuperHeroic play, but if it is for _Justice, Inc_ campaigns, and _Danger
International_ campaigns as well, then detail should probably be more
desirable than not.
On the list below, i have tried to consolidate professions that were too
fine in their distinctions. Legal and criminal did not get much
consolidation, due to the fact that they seem prevalent in many
campaigns. :)
SuperHero Profession Plug-In List
Criminal
Prostitute
Pimp
Burgler
Con Artist
Thug
Hit Man
Mafiosa
Pusher
Bookie
Legal
Security Guard
Forensic Technician
FBI/CIA/BATF/Customs Agent
Judge
Cop
Private Detective
Lawyer*
Swat Team Member
U.S. Marshall
Politican*
Military
Officer*
Mercenary
Specialist*
Special Forces (Seal, Ranger, Green Beret, Etc.)
Medical
Nurse
Doctor*
Pharmacist
EMT
Fireman
Entertainment
Athlete*
Entertainer*
Reporter
Photographer
Artist
Playboy (not the magazine kind, the "Wealthy Bachelor" kind)
Education
Educator
Student
Curator (museum or gallery)
Scientist*
Mytical
Psychic
Mystic/Seer
Enchanter*
Alchemist
Other
Chef
Clerk
Inventor
Pilot *
Navigator*
Construction Worker*
Mechanic*
Outdoorsman
Executive*
Secretary
Computer Professional*
Coroporate Cog*
Architect
Engineer*
Stockbroker
Accountant
David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |
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Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:43:19 -0500 (EST)
From: THE MAD HARLEQUIN <ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: RE: I can't see your face.
Cc: RAVANOS <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
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I'll describe the Sf/x and character history in a bit more detail.
Maria was a normal human with military experience who had to
be honorabally discharged due to severe nightmares she would occasionally
experience. Maria decided she wanted to see the world, so she visited a
number of strange and exotic places, and indulged in the local scenery.
She had always loved ancient cultures, and was the rugged, adventerous
type. On her trips, she always managed to get some exploring in...
hiking, climbing, spelunking, or whatever else wasn't advised by her tour
guide.
On one of her journeys in Greece she became romantically involved
with a man who was on an archeological dig. They had gathered clues as to
the location of an interesting site, and Maria was an unwelcome addition.
When they arrived at the site, Maria had deduced that she indeed
was an unwelcome addition. Her suspicions werre further justified when
she overheard two of the men had planned to do away with her in a most
unkind manner...
After a failed attempt to stealthily escape the men, she
accidentially fell into a deep chasm. The men, thinking she was dead,
continued on their way.
Maria, however, had not died, but suffered some severe injuries.
Her leg was probally broken, perhaps a rib as well. She also noticed what
appeared to be a snake bite on her arm, which felt numb. After doing what
she could about her wounds, she stumbled about for a bit.
It was some sort of ancient tomb. She wandered about for a bit,
and realized the only way to escape would be for her to climb out. With
her, she took a torch and some leather straps to bind the splint on her
leg and made her way up and out.
Two days later, she found civilization, and was rushed back to the
hospital. Her wounds weren't as bad as they had seemed. With a vivid
recognition of the events and a fury raging in her breast, she tried as
hard as she could to make a quick recovery. During that time, she
discovered the leater bands had some strange properities.
One of them, when placed over her eyes and ears, still let her
'see' in a way, but not normally. Everyone appeared to look the same,
blank, vaugely humanoid forms that sounded the same. Another one of the
bands, crossed over the heart, let her sense injustice and gave her the
continued will and determination to smite it. The third, wound around her
arm, much like a bracer, gave her the ability to recover quickly from any
blow and retaliate with great strength.
Needles to say, she tracked down the men and killed them all.
Now, the why of the first band.
Justice is to be served, and the unjust must be punished,
regardless of who they are, regardless of what station they hold in
society, and regardless of what connections they may have with the
punisher of the wrong.
The band blocks out a face, dehumanizing the target, making the
personal easier to kill. It also conceals the identy of the wrong doer,
allowing the punisher to kill without hesitation, even though that person
in reality could be the punsiher's father, mother, brother, greatest love,
etc. The only thing the punsiher sees is the wrong deed, and the target
to be killed.
In other words, the only discriminatory sense the punisher has is
the Detect Injustice sense... and for her job, that's all that matters.
I hope that clears things up. So hit me with your suggestions on
what the third band should work mechanically within the HERO system.
Thanks! (Egads, this is kind of long, isn't it?)
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Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:35:31 -0500
From: KimFoster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net>
Subject: New Power modifier:Based on Smell
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This limitation is meant to reflect powers such chemical pheremones and
airborne drugs. Most often it would be applied to mental powers but could
be applied to adjustments powers and perhaps certain types of transforms.
Based on Smell limits the powers range to a 1-2 hex radius around the user
but can affect any number of beings in that area. Strong winds, rain and
other conditons can reduce/negate a power based on smell as can filtering
masks, or simply holding one's breath. Powers with this lim are by default
visible to the smell/taste sense group instead of mental (though a telepath
could detect the alteration in the victim's thought patterns but not likely
the source). Ranged and Area of effect can be used to extend the reach of
the "cloud" created by this effect.
What do you think a good level for this would be? I was thinking of making
it a -1/4 limitation. It costs some utility but adds some advantages as
well.
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From: Pat10355@aol.com
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:40:58 EST
Subject: Re: Templates - Background - Reporter
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I'll contribute a proposed package deal for reporters, since in "real life"
I'm a newspaper copy editor and former reporter.
I'll admit I'm not quite sure of the format you're using, so I've written it
up using the Package Deal format from Fantasy Hero.
REPORTER
2 PS: Reporter 11-
3 Conversation
3 Deduction
2 CK: City 11-
1 Choose One: Familiarity w/Bureaucratics, Criminology, High Society,
Mechanics or Streetwise 8-, One SC, KS or PS 8-, or One Language,
basic conversation.
2 Choose One KS: Business, Courts, Crime, Education, Entertainment,
Government, Health, International Affairs, Military or Science 11-
5 Contacts: 5 (in related fields) 8-
1 Perk: Press Pass
Disadvantages
3 Package Bonus
10 Psych Limit: Curious (common, moderate)
Total Cost: 6 pts.
MY REASONING
This represents an average reporter, most likely a newspaper reporter. This
person isn't fresh out of college, but he isn't a 30-year veteran, either.
Obviously, a reporter is going to have PS: Reporter and a press pass.
Deduction and Conversation also seem to be prerequisites -- reporters spend a
lot of time figuring things out, and getting information from people through
talking to them pretty much sums up the whole job.
The KS choices represent the various beats covered by most newspapers ...
someone on a beat is going to be pretty familiar with it. The Skill choices
also represent the knowledge picked up by covering a beat -- you can't equal a
police officer's training by covering the crime beat, but you'll learn more
about how cops do things. Also, knowing a second language is increasingly
important for reporters today.
Finally, reporters clearly have a lot of contacts, and the Contacts reflect
this.
Hope this helps,
Patrick Sweeney
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Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 17:42:17 +0000
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Duplicating speedsters.
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Tim Gilberg says
> Hey! I just had a great idea! (TFIC) Give your speedster Duplication,
> with the special effect that he moves so fast its as if there were
> twelve of him....
I tried this, and it worked fine until one of the duplicates got
killed.... how was I going to explain that one?
Perhaps a better mechanic to simulate the same special effect is to give
some of the Speedsters maneuvers Area Effect(Selective). This can work
very well if yo buy it on his strength (or a portion of his strength).
He can still only be doing one thing; strike, disarm, tickle etc.. ; but
he can do it any number of people within the immediate area in a single
1/2 phase action. It's selective to stop him hitting his chums.
This lets speedsters pull of a wide variety of Flash/QuickSilver "I'll
disarm everyone in this room" trickery.
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Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 17:50:42 +0000
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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There is only ever "nigh invulnerability". Ask The Tick. He is mighty.
Guy Hoyle wrote:
>
> Yup, I agree that there should be no absolute defense power; even Superman, virtually the most invulnerable character in the DC Universe pre-Crisis, occasionally ran into someone so tough that the Man of Steel could be hurt, even without magic/kryptonite/red suns, etc.
>
> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
>
> On 2/8/98, at 8:43 AM, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
>
> >At 11:37 AM 2/6/98 -0800, you wrote:
> >>> However, regular reduction should be expanded to the 100% level.
> >>> Put a huge Stop Sign on it, but put it in the book. It's not that bad,
> >>> really. The high cost makes it prohibitive. 120 point to be totally
> >>> impervious to physical attacks.
> >>
> >> Yep. And very in genre.
> >>
> >
> >No it isn't. Most 'invunerable' supers get damaged eventually, and hero
> >is a game of NO absolutes. (and please don't do the 'that in itself is an
> >absolute' line)
>
> Common problems need Uncommon Solutions!
> http://www.uncommonsolutions.com
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Stainless Steel Rat\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 17:54:36
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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On 10 Feb 1998 16:34:55 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes:
>
>q> Assuming a Magic base, I've done this by using the Armour Piercing
>q> advantage.
>
>Ummm... so tell me, then, what defense is being halved?
I modelled it after Transport's use of AP.
>And I still have problems with this. Invisibility is moderately costly, 40
>points for a significant degree of effect. "Detect Invisibility" with a
>few features and AP is 10-20 points. You have created an "offense" that is
>half the cost of the "defense". This is backwards; in Hero, defenses cost
>less.
Not so, being invisible is a very potent *offensive* capability; qv
"I'll turn invisible (to all sense groups), sneak up on the ogre and
push him over the parapet."
Oh yes, then there was, "Whaddya mean, the dragon saw me?! This isn't
AD&D" <cackle>.
>If I were in your game and got tagged by this, I'd bitch to no end about
>it.
Just buy Hardened.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:55:06 -0800
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger)
Subject: Re: Templates - Background Plug-Ins
Content-Description: cc:Mail note part
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David Fair wrote:
>There's alot of truth here, but I had thought that the templates were to be
>used for PC's & NPC's in Superheroic _and Heroic_ campaigns (this despite the
>fact that all of the current discussions on templates focus on using powers).
>If I am wrong, then the list is far too detailed for SuperHeroic play, but if
>it is for _Justice, Inc_ campaigns, and _Danger International_ campaigns as
>well, then detail should probably be more desirable than not.
If you haven't checked out Dave Mattingly's background templates on his
website, you might want to. He has included in the packages what other
professions they could be used for, with only minor modifications.
>SuperHero Profession Plug-In List
<snipped>
This is a lot more concise, and would be of more use to me.
Richard
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 17:57:21
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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On Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:54:54 -0600 (CST), Dataweaver wrote:
>On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>
>> > > > Damage Reduction is about all encompassing, even NNDs are reduced by it.. it
>> > > > is a bit odd for the game to have nothing to get around it, isn't it?
>> > Desolid, Cannot Walk through Walls (-1/2), Attacks don't actually pass
>> > through you (you can intercept damage; call it a +1 1/2; oh, wait - we
>> > don't have any Enhanced Power advantage... ;) ); must specify one group of
>> > special effects that you're vulnerable to, and applied against both
>> > physical and energy attacks. Net cost: 80 points. Badly underpriced...
>>
>> Although I think 100% DR is a dumb idea in Hero, you are forgetting the DR
>> is Persistent and Desolid (whatever you said above) is not. Add a +1 for
>> 0 END, Persistent and you get 120.
>
>Well, I could get technical and say that it also counters both Physical
>and Energy attacks, while Damage Reduction counters one or the other (so
>240 points for 100% Damage Reduction against both), butwe're already
>heavily into the mechanics as is, so I won't. =)
>
>I'll just mention that 240 points is a substantial chunk of nearly any
>character, and - while I would never use 100% Damage Reduction in any of
>my games - it doesn't seem to be an unreasonable price for the effects.
What if you redefined it as Damage Reduction vs SFX?
qts
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 18:01:55
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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On Wed, 11 Feb 1998 09:15:16 -0500 (EST), lowecm@polaris.clarkson.edu
wrote:
>
>
>On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Sakura wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>>
>> > Then tell me, Rat, just how exactly to model a Detect Invisibility
>> > type of spell that will expose any invisible creatures. I personally like
>> > Spatial Awareness, but . . .
>>
>> Ranged Targeting Touch? (25 points) (only to detect invisible -?)
>> (This begs the question of 'what the heck is 'invisible to touch' and can
>> it exist?)
>
>Invisible to touch? Sure it can exist. Basically you meet resistance
>if you 'come in contact' with them, but you don't feel it. Its all a
>matter of perception.
Isn't this one of the game effects of something like Leprosy, that you
can touch something but not feel it?
qts
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Stainless Steel Rat\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 18:05:37
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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On 11 Feb 1998 16:13:45 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>>>>> "TB" == Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> writes:
>TB> ?? When did you start advocating that defense should be more expensive
>TB> than that against which they defend?
>
>Detects are not "defenses", they are "attacks" inasmuch as they attempt to
>find something. See my just posted message on this.
They do not affect the target, so they are not attacks. QED. They can
be classified as defenses - you know, Detect Poison, Gas, Magic,
Demons...
qts
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 18:06:14
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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On Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:23:46 -0500 (EST), lowecm@polaris.clarkson.edu
wrote:
>On 11 Feb 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>> >>>>> "S" == Sakura <jeffj@io.com> writes:
>>
>> S> Alternately, one could look on the Invisibility as the 'attack' (it's
>> S> the 'active' power) while the Detect is the defense (since all it
>> S> basically does is defend against Invisibility).
>>
>> This gets back to philosophy, "internal" vs. "external". Invisibility
>> affects oneself; Detect affects another. Detect Invisibility does not
>> defend against Invisibility, it attempts to find it.
>
>Well to look at it another way, detect affects your own perceptions,
>while invisibility affects other people's perceptions.
Very well put.
qts
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Stainless Steel Rat\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 18:08:45
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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On 11 Feb 1998 18:04:31 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes:
>
>q> Sh*t! You're right - my apologies.
>
>And some circumstantial evidence that Damage Reduction is not a defense,
>per se. Put it in a Focus. :)
Or just give it the appropriate Limitations.
I'm thinking about making it SFX based - you'd have to reduce the cost,
though.
qts
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Darien Phoenix Lynx\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 18:15:39
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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On Thu, 12 Feb 1998 06:14:07 -0600 (CST), Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:
>On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Filksinger wrote:
>
>> I don't allow an overall Invisibility to Detect. To have Invisibility
>> to Detect, one must buy Invisibility to Detect X, where X is clearly
>> defined.
>
>Then, on the flipside, I wouldn't allow Detect "Invisibility" (the power),
>only Detect Invisibility (special effect X). Like Detect Magical
>Invisibility to Normal Sight.
Agreed.
qts
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"John and Ron Prins\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 18:24:03
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Champions Mages
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On Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:52:32 -0500 (EST), John and Ron Prins wrote:
>>JaRP> True, true. But I've found that building something like a mage (who
>>JaRP> will have a lot of points sunk into knowledge skills) just isn't
>>JaRP> workable on 250 points.
>>
>>The problem here is not the lack of points, it is the plethora of skills
>>that are useless within the context of the game. Yes, I harp on the fact
>>that if you did not pay the points for a thing you do not have that thing.
>>But the other side of that coin is, why should you pay for something you
>>never use?
>>
>>I mean, sure, it may be neat that you know the name of every major denizen
>>of Hell and most of the minor ones. Unless you have routine need of this
>>information there is no need to waste 3 points (INT-based) on a Knowledge
>>Skill: Denizens of Hell. This kind of background information can and
>>should be handwaved as background information.
>
>True, but a 'properly' done mage will likely know several languages, not to
>mention several highly _relevant_ knowledge skills. I wouldn't force someone
>to buy KS: Denizens of Hell, but a mage should have at least KS: Magical
>Creatures. Lumping it all down to KS: Magic is IMHO the _wrong_ thing to do,
>kind of like having SC: Science.
For reference, mages in my campaigns have one KS for each style of
magic, and usually have numerous KS and several LS besides. 15-20 pts
is pretty usual for a starting character (including the Enhancers).
qts
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"John and Ron Prins\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 18:32:21
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: re: Champions Mages
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On Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:39:07 -0500 (EST), John and Ron Prins wrote:
>>As a character, Mystikon has enough spells in his VPP to cover most
>>eventualities. Combat, investigation, transport, etc. are all taken care
>>of, often with choices of spells.
>>
>>13 STR 3 << Wizard's Knowledge >> << Montana Smith >> OCV: 7
>>(+2)
>>20 DEX 30 90 VPP 2 Archaeology 11- DCV: 7
>>(+2)
>>15 CON 10 30 Control 2 Paleontology 11- ECV: 5
>>(+2)
>>10 BOD Magic Spells Only -1/2 2 Anthropology 11-
>
>90 Point VPP??? 90 Point VPP??? Great jumping Jehosaphat, man!! Personally,
>I'm shooting for a 45-60 point VPP for a starting mage, with the limitation
>"Requires a Skill Roll" on all spells. I certainly don't see how 'Magic
>Spells Only' rates a -1/2 limitation. From your list below, you sure don't
>look limited...
Magic Spells Only would be a -0 limitation
>>13 INT 3 2 Ancient Relics 11- DEX: 20
>>15 EGO 10 15 Spellcasting 18- 2 Museums 11- SPD: 5
The VPP doesn't have RSR on the spells either.
qts
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"John and Ron Prins\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 18:37:25
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Champions Mages
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On Thu, 12 Feb 1998 18:39:04 -0500 (EST), John and Ron Prins wrote:
>>>Big deal. 'Written out and approved' is a standard GM requirement for
>>>VPP players to avoid arguments and time consuming math.
>>
>>Good arguments. All I know is that my GM (Mike Nunn at the time)
>>approved it in the game he ran.
>
>Ah. Well, whatever you can get away with, I guess ^_^.
>
>>We could go on about this (which I wouldn't mind), but it seems that
>>we've agreed that a supermage can be done on 250. In your case, you'd
>>take some of the VPP cost and put it towards INT, EGO, and some more
>>skills.
>
>Oh, it can be done, but just never to my complete satisfaction. I can build
>satisfactory Bricks, Energy Projectors, Speedsters, Teleporters, Gadgeteers,
>etc. ad nauseum on 250 (hey, I can even build a Time Manipulator on 250,
>remember that thread, anyone?), but satisfaction eludes me with Mages and
>Telepaths at that level. It's a wee bit frustrating, as that extra 25-50
>points would do the trick sooo well.
Try adding in foci and Side Effects. FH mages' spells tend to have -4
or more in limitations.
>Part of the problem is that mages need
>decent stats in several attributes that you can't ignore: DEX, EGO, INT and
>PRE. And there's more than a few powers you simply can't fit into a VPP
>(Pow/Mental Defense, Sense Magic, etc). It's the scholarly stuff that really
>gets me, I suppose. The 'essential' knowledge skills and languages eat up
>more than a few points.
DEX 14 is sufficient, and don't bother too much about PRE to start
with.
qts
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: I can't see your face.
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:08:09 -0800 (PST)
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>
> I'll describe the Sf/x and character history in a bit more detail.
>
> Maria was a normal human with military experience who had to
> be honorabally discharged due to severe nightmares she would occasionally
> experience.
If this is the US military, that would be a General Discharge for
medical reasons.
> It was some sort of ancient tomb. She wandered about for a bit,
> and realized the only way to escape would be for her to climb out. With
> her, she took a torch and some leather straps to bind the splint on her
> leg and made her way up and out.
> One of them, when placed over her eyes and ears, still let her
> 'see' in a way, but not normally. Everyone appeared to look the same,
> blank, vaugely humanoid forms that sounded the same. Another one of the
> bands, crossed over the heart, let her sense injustice and gave her the
> continued will and determination to smite it. The third, wound around her
> arm, much like a bracer, gave her the ability to recover quickly from any
> blow and retaliate with great strength.
> Needles to say, she tracked down the men and killed them all.
>
> Now, the why of the first band.
> Justice is to be served, and the unjust must be punished,
> regardless of who they are, regardless of what station they hold in
> society, and regardless of what connections they may have with the
> punisher of the wrong.
> The band blocks out a face, dehumanizing the target, making the
> personal easier to kill. It also conceals the identy of the wrong doer,
> allowing the punisher to kill without hesitation, even though that person
> in reality could be the punsiher's father, mother, brother, greatest love,
> etc. The only thing the punsiher sees is the wrong deed, and the target
> to be killed.
> In other words, the only discriminatory sense the punisher has is
> the Detect Injustice sense... and for her job, that's all that matters.
>
The one band could simply be phys: blind, IAF.
Meaning take a phys lim that majorly impares, some of the time.
Then one band gives regen, and the last Detect injustice, discrim,
sense, ranged.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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Date: 13 Feb 1998 14:29:35 -0500
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>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes:
q> Not so, being invisible is a very potent *offensive* capability; qv
q> "I'll turn invisible (to all sense groups), sneak up on the ogre and
q> push him over the parapet."
You can do that without Invisbility.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes:
>> Well to look at it another way, detect affects your own perceptions,
>> while invisibility affects other people's perceptions.
q> Very well put.
Dodge makes it more difficult for an attacker to hit you. The effect of
Dodge is directed at yourself, not him.
Invisibility makes it more difficult for someone to perceive you. The
effect of Invisibility is directed at yourself, not him.
Dodge has no targets. Invisibility has no targets.
Attacks have targets. Senses have targets.
What can I say? I like symmetry.
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Duplicating speedsters.
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:55:26 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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>
> Tim Gilberg says
>
> > Hey! I just had a great idea! (TFIC) Give your speedster Duplication,
> > with the special effect that he moves so fast its as if there were
> > twelve of him....
>
> I tried this, and it worked fine until one of the duplicates got
> killed.... how was I going to explain that one?
Quantom Mechanics?
If you move fast enugh, you may very well duplicate, especially if you can
move faster than light.
My own PC Speedster gets up to lightspeed in all but running inches,
since Hero has no hyperspeed running...
> Perhaps a better mechanic to simulate the same special effect is to give
> some of the Speedsters maneuvers Area Effect(Selective). This can work
> very well if yo buy it on his strength (or a portion of his strength).
> He can still only be doing one thing; strike, disarm, tickle etc.. ; but
> he can do it any number of people within the immediate area in a single
> 1/2 phase action. It's selective to stop him hitting his chums.
>
> This lets speedsters pull of a wide variety of Flash/QuickSilver "I'll
> disarm everyone in this room" trickery.
This could work. Some GM's might make you use telekinesis though.
I chose autofire HA, area effect HA, explosive HA, and HA damage shield in
a multipower.
I also chose a Change Environment for non combat speedster tricks. Something
which half this list is for, and half against (it's another Great X debate).
You can see what I did at
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/Tao_Kuai.html
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/
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Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:06:32 +0000
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Duplicating speedsters.
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Brian Wong wrote:
>
> >
> > Tim Gilberg says
> >
> > > Hey! I just had a great idea! (TFIC) Give your speedster Duplication,
> > > with the special effect that he moves so fast its as if there were
> > > twelve of him....
> >
> > I tried this, and it worked fine until one of the duplicates got
> > killed.... how was I going to explain that one?
>
> Quantom Mechanics?
> If you move fast enugh, you may very well duplicate, especially if you can
> move faster than light.
> My own PC Speedster gets up to lightspeed in all but running inches,
> since Hero has no hyperspeed running...
Thats a good way to explain why your speedster can create duplicates
but, unless my reading of the rules is wrong, once the duplicate has
been killed it cannot be "reduplicated" until sufficient character
points have been earnt to buy the power again....
Am I incorrect? If so... please be gentle with me!
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Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 17:33:10 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Changing the Standard in 5th (Re: Templates Discussion)
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On Thu, 12 Feb 1998, Lizard wrote:
> >> Look. Power is all relative. So if you up the base hero to 400 points, then
> >> Joe Viper Agent will be at 200 points, and Larry The Mugger will be at 100
> >> points.
> >
> >This is a rather bizarre non-sequitur. How does that follow?
>
> Quit simple. Hero Combat slows down rapidly with multiple combatants. So if
> your original adventure called for three VIPER agents to provide a mild
> threat to your 200 point hero, then you do not want to have to make it 5
> for your 300 point hero. So you make the Viper agents more powerful, and so
> on down the line.
That almost makes sense if you assume that you design your adventures
for a low-powered game and then modify them, but why on Earth would you
do that?
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Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 17:38:06 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: In support of 'Advantage
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On Thu, 12 Feb 1998, Brian Wong wrote:
> > > Advantaged:
> > > If no other reasonable method can be found to construct an effect,
> >
> > That right there says that the Advantage will never be used.
>
> I disagree.
> Champions handles the Champions paradigm of Super Heroes perfectly. But not
> so much the Marvel, Image, DC, or what have you paradigms.
No idea what you're trying to say here.
> There are many ways to construct effects with long drawn out mechanics
> that require double takes to understand why power X was used for effect Y.
> That is where it goes beyond reasonable.
That's the whole _point_ of Champions. If building your abilities out of
the basic game-mechanical building blocks (possibly requiring a fairly
complex construction) isn't to your taste, there are plenty of super-hero
games available which don't use this paradigm.
> There's also the issue of things it just doesn't do.
I haven't seen any which a generic "Advantaged" would rectify.
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Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 17:39:35 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Changing the Standard in 5th (Re: Templates Discussion)
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On Thu, 12 Feb 1998, Brian Wong wrote:
> > When did that happen, exactly? 4th Edition uses 100 base points plus up
> > to 150 Disads; 3rd Edition used 100 base points plus however many Disads
> > you wanted. (I don't have the book immediately handy, but as I recall the
> > average total cost of the sample characters was around 280.)
>
> 250. Third edition not averaged 250, but every character save mechanon
> and the viper agents in the rule book was 250.
No, I dragged my copy out and checked; total costs of the standard-level
characters ranged from 243 to 270, with the mean total cost being just
marginally above 250.
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Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 17:42:12 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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On 11 Feb 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> TB> ?? When did you start advocating that defense should be more expensive
> TB> than that against which they defend?
>
> Detects are not "defenses", they are "attacks" inasmuch as they attempt to
> find something. See my just posted message on this.
But invisibility is a generally useful active measure, while "Detect
Invisibility" is a countermeasure only useful against characters with
that particular active measure. The Detect is much more analoguous to
the defense.
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Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 17:44:20 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Changing the Standard in 5th (Re: Templates Discussion)
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On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Lizard wrote:
> >Just because they happen to want to play their favorite comic book
> >character (who happens to need more than 250 points to build), that
> >doesn't mean that they are munchkins... Come on, now! Give them the
> >benefit of the doubt, at least...
>
> I'm sorry, but, to me, it would be like TSR starting every character at
> 10th level because "No one wants to play a young Conan or an inexperienced
> Elric".
TSR doesn't get to start characters anywhere... certainly I've seen people
play AD&D starting at high levels; why would you see that as a bad thing?
> Characters in comic books never lose -- characters in RPG often
> do, at least temporarily.
So do characters in comic books.
> If you must go this route, I recommend several 'starting power levels' be
> given, with notes on what this will mean.
This is pretty much a no-brainer IMO.
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Duplicating speedsters.
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 14:36:18 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> > > > Hey! I just had a great idea! (TFIC) Give your speedster Duplication,
> > > > with the special effect that he moves so fast its as if there were
> > > > twelve of him....
> > >
> > > I tried this, and it worked fine until one of the duplicates got
> > > killed.... how was I going to explain that one?
> >
> > Quantom Mechanics?
> > If you move fast enugh, you may very well duplicate, especially if you can
> > move faster than light.
> > My own PC Speedster gets up to lightspeed in all but running inches,
> > since Hero has no hyperspeed running...
>
> Thats a good way to explain why your speedster can create duplicates
> but, unless my reading of the rules is wrong, once the duplicate has
> been killed it cannot be "reduplicated" until sufficient character
> points have been earnt to buy the power again....
> Am I incorrect? If so... please be gentle with me!
>
I believe that's correct.
So here's what I was getting at:
This is highly 4-color and tosses any real world physics out the
window, down the storm drain, into the sewer, and down to the ocean. :)
Using the power of Quantum Mechanics Professor Tachyon is able
to move at speeds faster than light within a small area. If he exceeds a
certain speed the molecules of his body step outside the normal reality
and copy themselves into several real duplicates. These duplicates can
then slow down, or even stop moving, and will continue to be real until
the Professor agains reaches Ultra Speed and this time combines the molecules
into a single whole.
If one clone is lost or destroyed, the effect leaves the Professor
incomplete, and thus unable to remake the same number of clones in the future
until he has spent the time gathering a full set of molecules again by
creating them from Quantum Manipulation.
There. It reads 4 color, like a comic book. But it's sounds psuedo
scientific and cool. :)
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/
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Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:14:13 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Duplicating speedsters.
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 09:06 PM 2/13/98 +0000, Chris Lynch wrote:
>Brian Wong wrote:
>> Quantom Mechanics?
>> If you move fast enugh, you may very well duplicate, especially if you can
>> move faster than light.
>> My own PC Speedster gets up to lightspeed in all but running
inches,
>> since Hero has no hyperspeed running...
In a campaign I played in, the speedster (named Quantum Max), defined his
Duplications as, Costs END, All duplicates share ALL characteristics. He
had three copies of himself, each of which was based on 188 points. Thus,
based on SFX if one of the duplicates died, the character died.
>Thats a good way to explain why your speedster can create duplicates
>but, unless my reading of the rules is wrong, once the duplicate has
>been killed it cannot be "reduplicated" until sufficient character
>points have been earnt to buy the power again....
>Am I incorrect? If so... please be gentle with me!
I always find that harsh. I would use the focus rule that, the character
could find/built/hatch a new character with the lost points. This could
lead to a further adventure. If you wanted to have fun, depending of SFX,
the GM could stage a "radiation accident" which coincides with the death
to produce a new duplicate which has the same number of points but is now
"different".
If you have to lose the points when the duplicate dies than, you should be
allowed to take Independent on the Duplication power. That would be a
cheesy way to save points, though.
Joe
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Duplicating speedsters.
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 22:09:01 -0800
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On Friday, February 13, 1998 10:28 AM, Chris Lynch wrote:
>Tim Gilberg says
>
>> Hey! I just had a great idea! (TFIC) Give your speedster
Duplication,
>> with the special effect that he moves so fast its as if there were
>> twelve of him....
Actually, that was my idea, not Tim's.
>I tried this, and it worked fine until one of the duplicates got
>killed.... how was I going to explain that one?
Easy. Duplication, all duplicates share STUN, END and BODY (-1/2).
Thus, if one is killed, knocked unconscious, stunned, exhausted, etc.,
they all are.
>Perhaps a better mechanic to simulate the same special effect is to
give
>some of the Speedsters maneuvers Area Effect(Selective). This can
work
>very well if yo buy it on his strength (or a portion of his
strength).
>He can still only be doing one thing; strike, disarm, tickle etc.. ;
but
>he can do it any number of people within the immediate area in a
single
>1/2 phase action. It's selective to stop him hitting his chums.
>
>This lets speedsters pull of a wide variety of Flash/QuickSilver
"I'll
>disarm everyone in this room" trickery.
Yes, but it is questionable. Maybe it is legal and should be allowed,
and maybe it isn't. There are arguments either way.
Filksinger
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: I can't see your face.
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 22:14:48 -0800
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On Friday, February 13, 1998 10:34 AM, Brian Wong wrote:
>>
>> I'll describe the Sf/x and character history in a bit more detail.
>>
>> Maria was a normal human with military experience who had to
>> be honorabally discharged due to severe nightmares she would
occasionally
>> experience.
>
> If this is the US military, that would be a General Discharge for
>medical reasons.
Or, she could have been given a choice between leaving voluntarily and
getting an honorable discharge, or being faced with medical.
<snip>
>> Now, the why of the first band.
>> Justice is to be served, and the unjust must be punished,
>> regardless of who they are, regardless of what station they hold in
>> society, and regardless of what connections they may have with the
>> punisher of the wrong.
>> The band blocks out a face, dehumanizing the target, making the
>> personal easier to kill. It also conceals the identy of the wrong
doer,
>> allowing the punisher to kill without hesitation, even though that
person
>> in reality could be the punsiher's father, mother, brother,
greatest love,
>> etc. The only thing the punsiher sees is the wrong deed, and the
target
>> to be killed.
>> In other words, the only discriminatory sense the punisher has is
>> the Detect Injustice sense... and for her job, that's all that
matters.
>>
> The one band could simply be phys: blind, IAF.
> Meaning take a phys lim that majorly impares, some of the time.
More than that. It not only makes her _partly_ (not fully, remember
that) blind, but it it directly tied up with other issues. Phys Lim:
Limited sight (strong, infrequently), combined with a Psych Lim: Must
judge people fairly.
> Then one band gives regen, and the last Detect injustice, discrim,
> sense, ranged.
>
>Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American
crow.
Filksinger
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Duplicating speedsters.
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 22:23:26 -0800
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On Friday, February 13, 1998 2:25 PM, Brian Wong wrote:
>> > > > Hey! I just had a great idea! (TFIC) Give your speedster
Duplication,
>> > > > with the special effect that he moves so fast its as if there
were
>> > > > twelve of him....
>> > >
>> > > I tried this, and it worked fine until one of the duplicates
got
>> > > killed.... how was I going to explain that one?
>> >
>> > Quantom Mechanics?
>> > If you move fast enugh, you may very well duplicate, especially
if you can
>> > move faster than light.
>> > My own PC Speedster gets up to lightspeed in all but
running inches,
>> > since Hero has no hyperspeed running...
>>
>> Thats a good way to explain why your speedster can create
duplicates
>> but, unless my reading of the rules is wrong, once the duplicate
has
>> been killed it cannot be "reduplicated" until sufficient character
>> points have been earnt to buy the power again....
>> Am I incorrect? If so... please be gentle with me!
>>
>
> I believe that's correct.
>
>So here's what I was getting at:
>
> This is highly 4-color and tosses any real world physics out the
>window, down the storm drain, into the sewer, and down to the ocean.
:)
My original suggestion was intended to be slightly different. The idea
was that the character would never actually Duplicate. Instead,
because of his extreme speed, he would _effectively_ be in several
places at once. The Duplication would have the limitation "Duplicates
share all characteristics -1/2", to indicate that if you hit one, all
of him feel it, because its just him running from one location to
another within a single phase.
This allows him to hit multiple people, disarm multiple people, or
even do several dissimilar things at one time. He can run one place to
catch the falling heroine, punch all four thugs, and disarm the bomb,
while surrounding the dastardly Mr. Z with six of himself, all in a
single phase.
Filksinger
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Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:17:13 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Champions Mages
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-- I did a mage, still have her in fact. She was 250 points and had a 60
point power pool with 64 charges and a list of spells. Because it had
charges, it worked out that a +1/4 advantage applied to a spell gave it
duration with each +1/4 increasing the duration.
She would get up in the morning, cast several spells and go off
heroing, glowing like a Christmas tree in the right light. She also had a
whole swag of skills and a few foci that she inherited or made. Her ye
olde standard black cat familiar had all the skills of a cat plus mindlink
and a +20 point pool that was usable by the Enchantress if the cat was a)
awake and not stunned and b) within 5 metres of her.
All in all, a well rounded mage built on 250 points. However, I should
add that the campaign had average 15 dex, 3.5 speed.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:39:21 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Organization: Satan's Children
Subject: Re: Champions Mages
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To: champ-l@omg.org
"qts" "John and Ron Prins" wrote:
> >True, but a 'properly' done mage will likely know several languages, not to
> >mention several highly _relevant_ knowledge skills. I wouldn't force someone
> >to buy KS: Denizens of Hell, but a mage should have at least KS: Magical
> >Creatures. Lumping it all down to KS: Magic is IMHO the _wrong_ thing to do,
> >kind of like having SC: Science.
>
> For reference, mages in my campaigns have one KS for each style of
> magic, and usually have numerous KS and several LS besides. 15-20 pts
> is pretty usual for a starting character (including the Enhancers).
Possibly a more cost-effective way to do this is to buy one generic
Migic skill, then spend one to two points apiece for each style or
'college' of magic as per weapon familiarities.
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 11:50:27
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Tue, 10 Feb 1998 14:32:11 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 08:09 PM 2/10/1998, \"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> wrote:
>>On 09 Feb 1998 18:37:33 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes:
>>>
>>>q> I was just giving an example. To pursue your thought, a fellow Hero
>>>q> could slap the affected one and cause a new Ego roll ("Come on, snap
>>>q> out of it!").
>>>
>>>But I cannot use my powers to break you out of such an Entangle, as I could
>>>with a "normal" Entangle. You still have failed to address this aspect of
>>>the radical change described.
>>
>>Why should you have to use your powers?
>
> It's not a question of requirement; it's a question of availability.
> With a normal Entangle, a third party could break the target out by
>using an Energy Blast or Killing Attack as well as STR. An Entangle BOECV
>which uses EGO to break out could (per TUM's discussion on Entangle: Mental
>Paralysis) use EGO Attacks, or any other attack Power (including STUN or
>BODY Drain) bought BOECV.
I've not got TUM, but I was, as I said above, thinking of a slap on the
face, or perhaps a PRE attack. Or it could be a simple as leading the
affected person away.
> An Entangle that uses PRE to break out, however, could only be attacked
>with PRE, an appropriate PRE Attack against the target, a PRE Drain, or a
>Power more or less specifically designed to break it. While almost all
>Champions characters have some way of doing 12d6 against PD and/or ED, few
>have a way of doing 12d6 with one of these attack forms. So, even though
>STR and PRE cost roughly the same, this becomes quite an advantage.
No, no, no! You're thinking purely in game terms! You seem to say that
a nD6 attack will need another nD6 attack to counter it.
Let's take a Lovecraftian monster: the Lloigor. They induce mental
paralysis (Entangle BOCV) as the target does not want to move. You
could use Mind Control here, but Entangle works better (would you stay
in one place with one of *them* approaching?). Yet in the stories, all
the hero has to do is take the victim by the hand and lead her to
safety.
qts
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 11:51:47
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Wed, 11 Feb 1998 22:04:28 -0500, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>At 02:32 PM 2/10/98 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>At 08:09 PM 2/10/1998, \"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> wrote:
>>>Why should you have to use your powers?
>>
>> It's not a question of requirement; it's a question of availability.
>
>> An Entangle that uses PRE to break out, however, could only be attacked
>>with PRE, an appropriate PRE Attack against the target, a PRE Drain, or a
>>Power more or less specifically designed to break it. While almost all
>>Champions characters have some way of doing 12d6 against PD and/or ED, few
>>have a way of doing 12d6 with one of these attack forms. So, even though
>>STR and PRE cost roughly the same, this becomes quite an advantage.
>
>Aren't PRE attacks a part of the system? I would think that if you were
>PRE'd into immobility, another person could PRE you into mobility. Now,
>how someone could help you out of an INT or COM based Entangle is a
>different problem.
For the INT based one, try Zork :}
qts
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Stainless Steel Rat\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 11:58:29
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On 10 Feb 1998 16:37:27 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes:
>
>>> But I cannot use my powers to break you out of such an Entangle, as I
>>> could with a "normal" Entangle. You still have failed to address this
>>> aspect of the radical change described.
>
>q> Why should you have to use your powers?
>
>Because that is they way Entangle works. Anyone outside of an Entangle may
>attack the Entangle -- do Body damage to it -- in an attempt to break it.
>
>You have removed this aspect from the mechanic. It is up to you to addres
>and justify that. You have yet to do so.
OK, let's take a more normal entangle: glue. Let's say that the glue is
dissolvable by alcohol. Gluegirl zaps you with a 20d6 Entangle, so you
aren't going anywhere. Then I come along with a bottle of vodka, from
the local convenience store and douse you with it. Hey presto, you're
free. At no time did I use any superpowers. You don't have to use Power
to counter Power, you just have to be creative.
Next!
qts
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Christopher Taylor\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 12:17:25
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: general query: power advantage
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On Tue, 10 Feb 1998 15:06:11 -0800, Christopher Taylor wrote:
>>>>This definitely qualifies as +1 - the attacker is getting the best
>>>>attack. Remember that a NND (+1) is dramatically reduced, if not
>>>>negated, by its particular defense(s).
>>>
>>>Im not sure this is as powerful as NND, although it doesnt strip the body
>>>damage away, it NEVER ignores defenses, and its very rare in my gaming
>>>experience when someone has a significant difference between PD and ED...
>>
>>Look at it this way: Merkon the Mage fires his AVD fireball at his
>>enemies. The warriors get to pit their pathetic ED against it instead
>>of their markedly better PD, and the shaman, who has an ED Force Field
>>up, gains no benefit and uses his pathetic PD. Sorry, +1 it is.
>
>you believe that gettin defense against every attack is as good as rarely
>gettin a defense against it???
This depends upon how common the NND is. Anyway, you should compare it
to AVLD (+1 1/2), not NND. In fact, if we add in the 'Does Body'
element, we should be comparing it to AVLD (+2 1/2).
>NND means you have no defense, ever, unless you have the one special case
>this mean you ALWAYS get defense against it, but not your best one...
If the person has NND, then the attack is usually totally negated; if
you want a NND which isn't totally negated, you need AVLD
>I can
>hardly see that as equivalent.. more like armor piercing, but not even
>really that powerful, since AP halves defenses and its rare in most games
>for someone to have one defense half another...
But what's happenning is that the attacker is getting the best possible
attack against his targets.
Let's elaborate on my earlier example:
Neither warriors nor shaman are wearing armour. The warriors have
bought up their PD to 8, their ED remains at 3; the shaman has a PD of
3 and an ED of 8. Merkon fires his 8d6 AVD (60 AP) attack, rolling an
average 8 Body and 28 Stun. In both cases 5 Body and 20 Stun get
through, whereas if it were just PD, the warriors would only take the
20 Stun.
It's also better than VSFX.
This is a ferociously powerful advantage, and should be paid for as
such.
qts
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"THE MAD HARLEQUIN\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 12:26:49
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: I can't see your face.
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On Fri, 13 Feb 1998 02:14:01 -0500 (EST), THE MAD HARLEQUIN wrote:
>Justice is blind... or at least partially.
>An NPC I'm creating has a Foci that blocks out the Discriminatory
>part of most of her senses, so, when she judges people, she does so
>by their actions rather than their relationship to her.
>People, to hear, appear as faceless manequin looking shapes, all gray.
>Any suggestions?
I note from your later post that the Focus (band) isn't worn all the
time.
Remember that you can use Disadvantages as Side Effects, and if the
Power has no Skill or Activation roll, then the SE take effect
automatically.
So try modelling the band along the line of Detect Injustice, Ranged,
Discriminatory, Targetting, OAF (it can be torn from her face), Side
Effect: Blind.
With three bands (perhaps there are more?) this sounds like a perfect
EC.
qts
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 12:32:10
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)
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On Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:33:06 -0400 (AST), Trevor Barrie wrote:
>On Mon, 9 Feb 1998, qts wrote:
>
>> But part of the Deflection is that the effect goes *somewhere*,
>
>It may or may not, depending on the special effects of the Deflection.
Can you elaborate? About the only example of such that comes to mind is
a mental attack being Deflected! Even with arrow cutting, the arrows go
somewhere.
If I throw an axe at you, and you Deflect it, who's to say it doesn't
hit the stableboy next to you?
qts
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"KimFoster\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 12:34:48
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: New Power modifier:Based on Smell
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:35:31 -0500, KimFoster wrote:
> This limitation is meant to reflect powers such chemical pheremones and
>airborne drugs. Most often it would be applied to mental powers but could
>be applied to adjustments powers and perhaps certain types of transforms.
>Based on Smell limits the powers range to a 1-2 hex radius around the user
>but can affect any number of beings in that area. Strong winds, rain and
>other conditons can reduce/negate a power based on smell as can filtering
>masks, or simply holding one's breath. Powers with this lim are by default
>visible to the smell/taste sense group instead of mental (though a telepath
>could detect the alteration in the victim's thought patterns but not likely
>the source). Ranged and Area of effect can be used to extend the reach of
>the "cloud" created by this effect.
>
>What do you think a good level for this would be? I was thinking of making
>it a -1/4 limitation. It costs some utility but adds some advantages as
>well.
There's no need for this: you can either use Mental Effect Based on Con
and/or Damage Shield as required, and give appropriate Area and Range
advantages and limitations.
qts
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"chadriley01@sprynet.com\" <chadriley01@sprynet.com&>
\"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 12:38:33
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Ye GODS........!!!
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Wed, 11 Feb 1998 13:33:58 -0800, Chad Riley wrote:
>I am considering running a "Godling" campain. Players would create new
>gods from whatever mythology they choose.
Run and buy Mythic Greece.
qts
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Stainless Steel Rat\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 13:08:26
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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On 13 Feb 1998 14:29:35 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes:
>
>q> Not so, being invisible is a very potent *offensive* capability; qv
>q> "I'll turn invisible (to all sense groups), sneak up on the ogre and
>q> push him over the parapet."
>
>You can do that without Invisbility.
Your average FH rogue can't do a TK, but often has a ring of
Invisibility (qv Chiron in the HSR).
qts
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Stainless Steel Rat\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 13:11:15
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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On 13 Feb 1998 14:46:51 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes:
>
>>> Well to look at it another way, detect affects your own perceptions,
>>> while invisibility affects other people's perceptions.
>
>q> Very well put.
>
>Dodge makes it more difficult for an attacker to hit you. The effect of
>Dodge is directed at yourself, not him.
>
>Invisibility makes it more difficult for someone to perceive you. The
>effect of Invisibility is directed at yourself, not him.
>
>Dodge has no targets. Invisibility has no targets.
>
>Attacks have targets. Senses have targets.
>
>What can I say? I like symmetry.
You're thinking toe-to-toe combat, I'm not. Super-dodge won't protect
you from the eyes of the watchman on the tower, Invisibility will.
qts
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"cptspith@teleport.com\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 13:17:51
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Champions Mages
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:39:21 -0800, Captain Spith wrote:
>"qts" "John and Ron Prins" wrote:
>
>> >True, but a 'properly' done mage will likely know several languages, not to
>> >mention several highly _relevant_ knowledge skills. I wouldn't force someone
>> >to buy KS: Denizens of Hell, but a mage should have at least KS: Magical
>> >Creatures. Lumping it all down to KS: Magic is IMHO the _wrong_ thing to do,
>> >kind of like having SC: Science.
>>
>> For reference, mages in my campaigns have one KS for each style of
>> magic, and usually have numerous KS and several LS besides. 15-20 pts
>> is pretty usual for a starting character (including the Enhancers).
>
> Possibly a more cost-effective way to do this is to buy one generic
>Migic skill, then spend one to two points apiece for each style or
>'college' of magic as per weapon familiarities.
I use an Expertise system, where certain spells mandate a specific
skill roll in the relevant school of magic:
Skill Roll Required Limitation
18- -1
16- -3/4
14- -1/2
11- -1/4
"You want to use a Mystic Hammer (Indirect RKA) spell? Sorry, kid; come
back when you have learned more of the mysteries of Air."
The good news is that they get to use this SR as a Complimentary Skill
Roll.
qts
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 07:30:28 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 02:29 PM 2/13/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes:
>
>q> Not so, being invisible is a very potent *offensive* capability; qv
>q> "I'll turn invisible (to all sense groups), sneak up on the ogre and
>q> push him over the parapet."
>
>You can do that without Invisbility.
With most Ogres, you don't even need more than Everyman Familiarity with
Stealth (though you'd need plenty of STR). :-]
---
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Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 07:32:40 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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At 05:42 PM 2/13/1998 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>On 11 Feb 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
>> TB> ?? When did you start advocating that defense should be more expensive
>> TB> than that against which they defend?
>>
>> Detects are not "defenses", they are "attacks" inasmuch as they attempt to
>> find something. See my just posted message on this.
>
>But invisibility is a generally useful active measure, while "Detect
>Invisibility" is a countermeasure only useful against characters with
>that particular active measure. The Detect is much more analoguous to
>the defense.
Does someone here have Invisibility to Electronic Sense Group, Usable
Against Others at Range, Indirect, Transdimensional, only vs discussion
threads? ;-]
Or, at the very least, Cosmetic Transform (topic headers)?
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Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 07:55:01 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV
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At 11:50 AM 2/14/1998, qts wrote:
>> With a normal Entangle, a third party could break the target out by
>>using an Energy Blast or Killing Attack as well as STR. An Entangle BOECV
>>which uses EGO to break out could (per TUM's discussion on Entangle: Mental
>>Paralysis) use EGO Attacks, or any other attack Power (including STUN or
>>BODY Drain) bought BOECV.
>
>I've not got TUM, but I was, as I said above, thinking of a slap on the
>face, or perhaps a PRE attack. Or it could be a simple as leading the
>affected person away.
I don't think a slap on the face could break anyone out of any type of
Entangle, BOECV or not. If you want that kind of dynamic, a Mind Control
would be the way to represent the paralysis.
>> An Entangle that uses PRE to break out, however, could only be attacked
>>with PRE, an appropriate PRE Attack against the target, a PRE Drain, or a
>>Power more or less specifically designed to break it. While almost all
>>Champions characters have some way of doing 12d6 against PD and/or ED, few
>>have a way of doing 12d6 with one of these attack forms. So, even though
>>STR and PRE cost roughly the same, this becomes quite an advantage.
>
>No, no, no! You're thinking purely in game terms! You seem to say that
>a nD6 attack will need another nD6 attack to counter it.
>
>Let's take a Lovecraftian monster: the Lloigor. They induce mental
>paralysis (Entangle BOCV) as the target does not want to move. You
>could use Mind Control here, but Entangle works better (would you stay
>in one place with one of *them* approaching?). Yet in the stories, all
>the hero has to do is take the victim by the hand and lead her to
>safety.
"Real" effects are represented in game terms. This means that, once the
effect is figured out, one has to see how it compares to other game effects
in terms of balance.
I like the Entangle mechanic for most instances of Mental Paralysis, but
I also use the Mind Control version where it's appropriate for the desired
effect, and the Lloigor's version looks much more like the latter. If it
were an Entangle, the hero would have to bodily lift the victim and carry
her away, because she'd be *unable* to move, not *unwilling.*
Similarly, slapping someone to snap them out of a paralysis is more like
trying to encourage a breakout vs Mind Control than trying to break an
Entangle.
Now, suppose I were to take the position that the Lloigor's paralysis
should be represented as an Entangle based on PRE (and if it weren't for
your statement that the hero could take the victim by the hand and lead her
out, I'd be there). The mechanic has some legitimacy, but I don't want it
to be too powerful in my game. A typical Champions character, other than a
mentalist, can attack a 6 DEF/6d6 BODY Entangle with a 12d6 attack --
exactly enough to break it, on average.
When I look at Mental Paralysis, most non-mentalists can do 2-3d6,
though a typical mentalist could do a 6d6 Ego Attack against it or at least
do 4-5d6 with his EGO characteristic, so 2 DEF/2d6 BODY Mental Paralysis
(for a +2 Advantage) seems about right (TUM gives three Advantages
totalling +1 3/4, but I prefer the cleaner and more direct single +2
Advantage). I don't mind the occasional mentalist getting out with ease if
non-mentalists are more or less stuck for several Phases (unless their
mentalist buddies break them out).
Continuing along this thread of thought, what's a typical PRE attack? A
12d6 PRE attack is quite rare. Let's suppose a typical PRE Attack is 8d6.
Most if not all characters can perform PRE Attacks of about that size. So
an Entangle that needs PRE to break out would typically be worth a +1/2
Advantage, all other things being equal.
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Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 08:01:31 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: New Power modifier:Based on Smell
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 12:35 PM 2/13/1998 -0500, KimFoster wrote:
> This limitation is meant to reflect powers such chemical pheremones and
>airborne drugs. Most often it would be applied to mental powers but could
>be applied to adjustments powers and perhaps certain types of transforms.
>Based on Smell limits the powers range to a 1-2 hex radius around the user
>but can affect any number of beings in that area. Strong winds, rain and
>other conditons can reduce/negate a power based on smell as can filtering
>masks, or simply holding one's breath. Powers with this lim are by default
>visible to the smell/taste sense group instead of mental (though a telepath
>could detect the alteration in the victim's thought patterns but not likely
>the source). Ranged and Area of effect can be used to extend the reach of
>the "cloud" created by this effect.
>
>What do you think a good level for this would be? I was thinking of making
>it a -1/4 limitation. It costs some utility but adds some advantages as
>well.
Given the extreme reduction in range, I'd almost say -1/2.
And don't forget that physical barriers (such as walls) would stop an
attack as well as the elements you state.
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Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 09:13:17 -0800 (PST)
X-Sender: nexus@uky.campus.mci.net (Unverified)
From: Kim <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net>
Subject: Re: New Power modifier:Based on Smell
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 12:34 PM 2/14/98, \"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> wrote:
>On Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:35:31 -0500, KimFoster wrote:
>
>> This limitation is meant to reflect powers such chemical pheremones and
>>airborne drugs. Most often it would be applied to mental powers but could
>>be applied to adjustments powers and perhaps certain types of transforms.
>>Based on Smell limits the powers range to a 1-2 hex radius around the user
>>but can affect any number of beings in that area. Strong winds, rain and
>>other conditons can reduce/negate a power based on smell as can filtering
>>masks, or simply holding one's breath. Powers with this lim are by default
>>visible to the smell/taste sense group instead of mental (though a telepath
>>could detect the alteration in the victim's thought patterns but not likely
>>the source). Ranged and Area of effect can be used to extend the reach of
>>the "cloud" created by this effect.
>>
>>What do you think a good level for this would be? I was thinking of making
>>it a -1/4 limitation. It costs some utility but adds some advantages as
>>well.
>
>There's no need for this: you can either use Mental Effect Based on Con
>and/or Damage Shield as required, and give appropriate Area and Range
>advantages and limitations.
>qts
The effects this is meant to simulate are not based on Con nessecarily. Also
that lim makes either normal PD or Ed applicable again not the case. Damage
sheild isn't applicable (for mental powers it makes the power attack anyone
who mentally attacks you).
I know violence doesn't solve all problems...
But it sure feels good!
Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 17:57:35
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: New Power modifier:Based on Smell
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sat, 14 Feb 1998 09:13:17 -0800 (PST), Kim wrote:
>At 12:34 PM 2/14/98, \"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> wrote:
>>On Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:35:31 -0500, KimFoster wrote:
>>
>>> This limitation is meant to reflect powers such chemical pheremones and
>>>airborne drugs. Most often it would be applied to mental powers but could
>>>be applied to adjustments powers and perhaps certain types of transforms.
>>>Based on Smell limits the powers range to a 1-2 hex radius around the user
>>>but can affect any number of beings in that area. Strong winds, rain and
>>>other conditons can reduce/negate a power based on smell as can filtering
>>>masks, or simply holding one's breath. Powers with this lim are by default
>>>visible to the smell/taste sense group instead of mental (though a telepath
>>>could detect the alteration in the victim's thought patterns but not likely
>>>the source). Ranged and Area of effect can be used to extend the reach of
>>>the "cloud" created by this effect.
>>>
>>>What do you think a good level for this would be? I was thinking of making
>>>it a -1/4 limitation. It costs some utility but adds some advantages as
>>>well.
>>
>>There's no need for this: you can either use Mental Effect Based on Con
>>and/or Damage Shield as required, and give appropriate Area and Range
>>advantages and limitations.
>>qts
>
>
>The effects this is meant to simulate are not based on Con nessecarily.
Apart from manner applied, this is identical to a potion.
> Also
>that lim makes either normal PD or Ed applicable again not the case.
You didn't state that, and it makes little difference.
> Damage
>shield isn't applicable (for mental powers it makes the power attack anyone
>who mentally attacks you).
But if you have *both* DS and MvC, then you get the 'scent aura'
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 17:58:29
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sat, 14 Feb 1998 07:30:28 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 02:29 PM 2/13/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes:
>>
>>q> Not so, being invisible is a very potent *offensive* capability; qv
>>q> "I'll turn invisible (to all sense groups), sneak up on the ogre and
>>q> push him over the parapet."
>>
>>You can do that without Invisbility.
>
> With most Ogres, you don't even need more than Everyman Familiarity with
>Stealth (though you'd need plenty of STR). :-]
Mwahahaha!
Don't play in one of my games, then!
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Tim R. Gilberg\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 18:08:05
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:15:59 -0600 (CST), Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> >It may or may not, depending on the special effects of the Deflection.
>>
>> Can you elaborate? About the only example of such that comes to mind is
>> a mental attack being Deflected! Even with arrow cutting, the arrows go
>> somewhere.
>
> Try a Comic Book example: Cyclops can shoot down incomming
>attacks with his Eye Beams. They don't go anyware, they just
>disintigrate.
That's not MD, that's a RKA.
>Also, for example, a character that catches items shot at him/her.
I include this in arrow cutting - the objects caught go somewhere, even
if it is 'on the ground'.
>Or someone who is actually hit by them, but isn't at all affected.
That's Damage Reduction oa a SFX on Armour.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:15:59 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> >It may or may not, depending on the special effects of the Deflection.
>
> Can you elaborate? About the only example of such that comes to mind is
> a mental attack being Deflected! Even with arrow cutting, the arrows go
> somewhere.
Try a Comic Book example: Cyclops can shoot down incomming
attacks with his Eye Beams. They don't go anyware, they just
disintigrate.
Also, for example, a character that catches items shot at him/her.
Or someone who is actually hit by them, but isn't at all affected.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 13:14:16 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Finds at Winter Wars
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> > Well, back from an exciting, if a trifling disapointing Winter
> > Wars. Kudos to Mr. McKinney for a fine convention.
>
> Thanks, I guess. Remind me not to have you serve as toastmaster when
> I'm asked to join the Strategist's Club... (like that will ever happen)
Reminder to you: Don't have me serve as toastmaster when you're
asked to join the Strategist's Club.
That good enough?
But seriously, the disappointments related to the Con were the
things you really couldn't do anything about. Champions/Hero System just
wasn't being run, and no Battletech appeared until quite late. (And by
that time I was pre-reged for the TFOS game.)
I also found less than I wanted at the Game Auction, but those are
_always_ crap shoots.
> The other group, about a year ahead of the RPM guys, were commercial this
> year - Tyger Volant. Frightingly, an examination of both RPM and Omniquest
> (TY's system) shows a LOT of similiarity, and both also show their HERO
> heritage. Our convention's previous HERO strengths (Chad Brinkley was
Hmmm. I was wondering what that RPS system was. I was going to
try it, but every time it was offered I had found something I wanted to
play even more. Though looking back, perhaps I should have skipped on the
Creeks and Crawdads game.
> Oh - and Tim - I hope you liked the room on the third floor for RPGs,
> that's where they'll be next year for the entire convention...
Actually, I thought it was great for the RPGs. It wasn't as noisy
as the main downstairs room. I had one RPG downstairs, and it was just
way too tough to hear what was going on. Perhpas, though, some dividers
could be found for the third story rooms?
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 13:16:37 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: TFOS new edition.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> > I do have to say that I think having a strong publisher/game
> > company behind our favorite game can only help. Even though Fuzion
> > products have to be converted, the conversions are on the Hero Web Site.
> > And visually, these RTG-published products look *great*.
>
> Um - but when you open up C:TNM, the contents aren't. I want the
> Champions Universe back. I want Foxbat. I want Obsidian.
Quite true, quite true. Though Foxbat is back in Bay City. I was
paging through a copy at one of the Dealer's Tables.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 13:18:43 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> > Try a Comic Book example: Cyclops can shoot down incomming
> >attacks with his Eye Beams. They don't go anyware, they just
> >disintigrate.
>
> That's not MD, that's a RKA.
And just how in the hell is he supposed to shoot down incomming
attacks? That, as a rule of the Hero System, is not allowed. The only
mechanic allowing it is MD.
> >Also, for example, a character that catches items shot at him/her.
>
> I include this in arrow cutting - the objects caught go somewhere, even
> if it is 'on the ground'.
Fine, but there is no worry about them hitting someone else.
> >Or someone who is actually hit by them, but isn't at all affected.
>
> That's Damage Reduction oa a SFX on Armour.
Or Missile Reflection with a SFX of absorbing attacks. Your
point?
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 13:24:27 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Changing the Standard in 5th (Re: Templates Discussion)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> > I'm sorry, but, to me, it would be like TSR starting every character at
> > 10th level because "No one wants to play a young Conan or an inexperienced
> > Elric".
>
> TSR doesn't get to start characters anywhere... certainly I've seen people
> play AD&D starting at high levels; why would you see that as a bad thing?
Personally no, though according to some earlier text, not playing
by all of the rules meant you weren't playing the game. An EGG thing, I
think.
> > If you must go this route, I recommend several 'starting power levels' be
> > given, with notes on what this will mean.
>
> This is pretty much a no-brainer IMO.
Agreed. Put the standard "experience Heroes" level at 300-350.
This will allow people to make their own personal comic book favorites.
Put another level at 200-250 for "beginner or teen Heroes". This
is explained to be the beginning X-Men, the beginning FF, Generation X,
etc.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Tim R. Gilberg\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 21:47:58
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sat, 14 Feb 1998 13:18:43 -0600 (CST), Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> > Try a Comic Book example: Cyclops can shoot down incomming
>> >attacks with his Eye Beams. They don't go anyware, they just
>> >disintigrate.
>>
>> That's not MD, that's a RKA.
>
> And just how in the hell is he supposed to shoot down incomming
>attacks? That, as a rule of the Hero System, is not allowed. The only
>mechanic allowing it is MD.
You can do it with Dispel, Suppress... Actually I took you to mean
things like missiles, rather than *any* attack.
>> >Also, for example, a character that catches items shot at him/her.
>>
>> I include this in arrow cutting - the objects caught go somewhere, even
>> if it is 'on the ground'.
>
> Fine, but there is no worry about them hitting someone else.
But my point is there *might* be; one has to know where the wotsit has
gone - after all, that arrowhead might be poisoned. Or it might have a
10d6 Explosive EB attached.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 15:45:02 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>> And just how in the hell is he supposed to shoot down incomming
>>attacks? That, as a rule of the Hero System, is not allowed. The only
>>mechanic allowing it is MD.
>
>You can do it with Dispel, Suppress... Actually I took you to mean
>things like missiles, rather than *any* attack.
Ok I'll bite, what exactly does MISSILE DEFLECTION do in your book?
>>> >Also, for example, a character that catches items shot at him/her.
>>>
>>> I include this in arrow cutting - the objects caught go somewhere, even
>>> if it is 'on the ground'.
>>
>> Fine, but there is no worry about them hitting someone else.
>
>But my point is there *might* be; one has to know where the wotsit has
>gone - after all, that arrowhead might be poisoned. Or it might have a
>10d6 Explosive EB attached.
I think in the description of missile deflection it says you can choose
where the missile goes... I dont remember, at least thats how Ive always ran it.
----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 20:21:31 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Finds at Winter War...
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Well, I also must say kudos to Don McKinney for Winter War. It was my first
one I attended and had a lot of fun. I was disappointed by the lack of
Champions games going on and the early crowded slugfust was too much for my
sluggish brain in the morning. I did enjoy AD&D over the weekend though
since it had been a good year or two since my last AD&D game and all the GMs
were quite talented storytellers. As far as my finds at Winter War the only
thing I picked up was The Ultimate Mentalist for 10 bucks. I know some may
or may not feel this was a good deal, but I was thrilled myself only having
it on disk. I saw Danger Inc. (is that right?) old book never seen it
before, for $7, but missed getting my hands on it. Did get the James Bond
game though, seems cool. Heard a lot of good reviews about it. Lastly I
met Don McKinney and Tim R. Gilberg, good to meet you both. Great guys,
sorry I didn't get a chance to game with either. Well, take it easy and
talk at you later.
Sparx
=====================================================
I intend to live forever - so far, so good
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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Subject: Re: Body from Ego Attacks
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-11,14-16
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 23:37:55 EST
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>> Okay, let's suppose that a sample character hasa *very* fragile
>mind and
>> can and will take Body damnage from normal Ego Attacks. How is this
>> bought? Physical Limitation? Susceptability, Vulnerability?
>>
>> And suggestions would be welcome.
>
>I remember some of the characters in the Champions of the North
>sourcebook
>took damage from ego attacks. Aura for example. It was defined as a
>Physical limitation.
The Gilt Complex from Adventurer's Club 4 all had "Takes Body from Ego
Attack" as a 20 point limitation, but that _was_ an earlier edition of
the rules.
Leah
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Subject: Re: Ye GODS........!!!
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-3,5-7
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 23:37:55 EST
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Don't forget Hestia (aka Vesta, hopefully I'm spelling these right). Her
gift could be protection abilities or a special protection aura on the
new kid's home/lair/whatever.
Also, IIRC Poseidon created horses, so he could give limited animal
control.
Leah
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Date: Thursday, June 03, 1999 12:13 PM