Week Ending February 28, 1998
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From: "Warren E Henderson III" <warren@newenglandpc.net>
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 98 01:08:55
Reply-To: "Warren E Henderson III" <warren@newenglandpc.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Mitch's Dilemma
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On Fri, 20 Feb 1998 18:12:00 +0000, Theala Sildorian
wrote:
>Make Vampire: 3d6 Major Transform, culmulative, must
force victim to
>drink vampire blood (this is drawn from White Wolf'f
Vampire: TM),
Or Bram Stoker even ;).
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From: "Warren E Henderson III" <warren@newenglandpc.net>
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 98 01:38:03
Reply-To: "Warren E Henderson III" <warren@newenglandpc.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Mitch's Dilemma
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On Fri, 20 Feb 1998 22:06:06 -0500 (EST), THE MAD HARLEQUIN wrote:
> A certain paradigm must exist in order for the person to become a
>'creature of the darkness.' It's not so much a physical transformation as
>it is a psychological one.
There is a pretty good book called <cringe> "Those who stalk the
night", maybe, at least I think thats right, by <grimace> Brian Lumley,
or Humbly. I hate lending someone a book and then needing it for
something :). This is the premise of Vamparism in the book.
Warren
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
BG> Actually, to agree with someone else's point, the situation in
BG> question is not "people," but "opportunities to kill people," or
BG> (probably even more accurately) "cases where killing a person or people
BG> would be tactically advantageous."
Regardless of what you call it, two characters in the same campaign are,
for the most part, going to be in the same situations, such as "cases where
killing a person or people would be tactically advantageous". As such, if
both have disadvantages based on such a condition, the bonuses they get
should be the same, and they should be treated equally (though not
necessarily identically).
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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>>>>> "R" == Remnant <easleyap@mobis.com> writes:
R> A terrorist who kills with a disad, "Believes in the Sanctity of Life."
R> I don't think so Rat.
Like I said, look at the average anti-abortion terrorist, the kind of
person that murders people at planned parenting centers because he so
strongly believes that abortion is murder. I did not say that it was sane
(for whatever definition of "sane" you like), only that the belief is not
the same as a CAK.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
TRG> Fine, but I'll have to disagree. IMC, People can quite ably
TRG> constitute "very common" for heroes who will be almost exclusively
TRG> fighting against fellow humans. I'll give VC.
I agree with another wording, that CAK applies to "cases where killing
people would be tactically advantageous". In a combat-oriented campaign,
as most supers games are, that is "common", not "very common".
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!)
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>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes:
q> The manner in which the BODY is applied is important. Unless the GM
q> decides something different
The attacker makes an OCV-based attack roll. If he hits, he does Body
damage to the Entangle. Subtract the Entangle's DEF; subtract any
remaining damage from the Entangle's current Body total.
There is nothing for the GM to "decide" as this is clearly spelled out.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Hello and Question
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Date: 21 Feb 1998 20:53:37 -0500
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>>>>> "BS" == BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us> writes:
BS> Jack has had the Cosmic Rod taken away on at least one occasion. [...]
He did? Damn... I must have missed it. There is a serious hole in my
collection of Starman issues.
The point is that you have to ask yourself, "are the character's items ever
taken away from him?" If the answer is "never" or "rarely" then the items
in question are probably not Foci. In Jack's case, especially now that he
can handle the Cosmic Rod at a distance, I think that whatever Focus
limitation he may have had has been bought off.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Pepper in the Face
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
TRG> Yes, but weren't you one who hated things like Flash, doesn't
TRG> actually affect sense?
But it *DOES* affect a sense. The victim's sight, the targeting sense that
most humans have, has been seriously affected. He cannot see a damn thing
because his eyes are full of grit and tears. The sneezing jag is just a
special effect at that point.
[...]
TRG> Not really. This is a situation without a gradual breakout, which
TRG> is modeled quite well with Entangle.
Um... no. You see, with an Entangle there is no "gradual" lessening of the
effect: it either holds the victim or it does not. The same thing occours
with Mind Control. Over time, both lose "strength". The mechanics are
different, but the effects are quite similar.
TRG> As Mental Entangles have been re-introduced, they seem a much better
TRG> "base" mechanic than the Mind Control, which is a simple Ego roll to
TRG> get out,
5 points of CON = 1d6 = +1 to the CON roll. With the Entangle he wears
away at the BODY; with the Mind Control he gets bonuses to the CON roll
based on time as his body attempts to rid itself of the grit. The results
are largely the same.
TRG> and which will have a difficulty level modified by situation.
Well, yeah, it makes sense. Someone that knows he is about to be pasted if
he doesn't clear his face quickly will struggle more. That clawing at his
face will cause his eyes to water all the more, clearing the grit that much
faster.
That makes a lot more sense to me than making nonsensical exceptions, like
CON costing Endurance and being able to push characteristics other than
Strength, because if one can push Ego to break a "mental entangle", why not
push to resist other mental powers or gain bonuses to Ego rolls. Even
better, pushing your Ego will add +2 to your ECV. And if you can do that,
why not push Dexterity and get +1 to CV?
I don't think so.
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From: Firelynx16@aol.com
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 23:34:30 EST
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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In a message dated 98-02-21 10:03:22 EST, you write:
> BBB, Psychological Limitation, pg 124:
>
> "A Psychological Limitation must have some application to the campaign,
> otherwise it's not worth any bonus."
>
> I do not disagree that different charcters may have different values for
> what would be considered the same thing. But by the same token, a beat cop
> and a shut-in are *NOT* in the same campaign as two PCs in the same
> campaign would be. To the shut-in, "people" are as uncommon to him as orcs
> are to the cop; for him, a CAK is a nigh-frivolous Disadavantage.
>
> To wit, Batman and Superman exist in the same universe, but they are not
> characters in the same campaign. What might be common for Batman might be
> uncommon for Superman. Batman and Robin are characters in the same
> campaign. With a few possible exceptions, what is common for Batman is
> common for Robin.
>
> And by the by, the BBB defines the standard total commitment against
> killing at 20 points: Common, Total, with the implication that "people" is
> a "common" category.
>
I agree with a good portion of what you're saying. The major problem I have
is when you said earlier that a 25 point CAK would include *everything*
(humans, animals, ants, etc), infering that CAK is solely based on what the
set includes, and not on the most important factor; how often the character
will be faced with the situation.
By showing that two characters can have a different value for basically the
same thing, I was showing that it would follow that someone could have a 25
point CAK and *not* have it include all life. This would be possible if he
enters into situations where deadly force would be more frequent with humans,
for example, at a much higher rate than the 'standard'.
In any event, this debate has helped me because it's made me look at Psych
Lims more from the standpoint of how often the situation will occur, rather
than the cookie cutter point assignments that I had been doing previously.
'Lynx
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From: Firelynx16@aol.com
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 23:46:50 EST
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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In a message dated 98-02-21 20:50:08 EST, you write:
> TRG> Fine, but I'll have to disagree. IMC, People can quite ably
> TRG> constitute "very common" for heroes who will be almost exclusively
> TRG> fighting against fellow humans. I'll give VC.
>
> I agree with another wording, that CAK applies to "cases where killing
> people would be tactically advantageous". In a combat-oriented campaign,
> as most supers games are, that is "common", not "very common"
You know, this makes a lot of sense for the base model. There could still be
individual cases even in four color games where it would consititute very
common, or campaign settings that would do likewise, but for most superhero
games, this works very well.
'Lynx
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 22:56:06 -0600
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>"Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com> wrote,
>>Rat wrote:
>>>A "believes in the sanctity of life" disad has a different focus. The
>>>average anti-abortion terrorist has this disad at a particularly extreme
>>>level, but he does not have a CAK.
>>
>>A terrorist who kills with a disad, "Believes in the Sanctity of Life." I
>>don't think so Rat.
>
> It's possible that he has PsL: Believes in the Sanctity of Life at a
>Moderate level, and PsL: Hates Abortions at the Total level.
>
> Joe Claffey
Good point, but not the situation as originally presented.
Alan
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From: Firelynx16@aol.com
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 23:59:56 EST
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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In a message dated 98-02-21 20:49:17 EST, you write:
> >>>>> "R" == Remnant <easleyap@mobis.com> writes:
>
> R> A terrorist who kills with a disad, "Believes in the Sanctity of Life."
> R> I don't think so Rat.
>
> Like I said, look at the average anti-abortion terrorist, the kind of
> person that murders people at planned parenting centers because he so
> strongly believes that abortion is murder. I did not say that it was sane
> (for whatever definition of "sane" you like), only that the belief is not
> the same as a CAK.
I agree with what Rat is saying here, but "Sanctity of Life" should probably
have an asterisk with it to denote that to the pro-life terrorist, their
"Sanctity of Life" Disad is waived if the victim is deemed 'evil'. Something
like a twisted version of murder by reason of self defense, where a person can
belief that murder is wrong, but will waive their desire not to kill for self
preservation or to save someone else.
'Lynx
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 23:02:07 -0600
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>> >A "believes in the sanctity of life" disad has a different focus. The
>> >average anti-abortion terrorist has this disad at a particularly extreme
>> >level, but he does not have a CAK.
>>
>> A terrorist who kills with a disad, "Believes in the Sanctity of Life."
I
>> don't think so Rat.
>
> Why not? To protect that life he thinks is sacred, he will kill.
>It might be a bit hypocritical, but it works fine w/o a CAK.
>
>
> -Tim Gilberg
A bit??? It is very hypocritical and begs to either be worded differently
or balanced by another disad that allows for the hypocrisy. Like Joe
Claffey's response or "Insane" as Rat seems to be suggesting.
Alan
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 23:17:18 -0600
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>R> A terrorist who kills with a disad, "Believes in the Sanctity of Life."
>R> I don't think so Rat.
>
>Like I said, look at the average anti-abortion terrorist, the kind of
>person that murders people at planned parenting centers because he so
>strongly believes that abortion is murder. I did not say that it was sane
>(for whatever definition of "sane" you like), only that the belief is not
>the same as a CAK.
Oh, well I can see it now that the terrorist has a Psy Lim "Insane" that
fights against the "BSL" Psy Lim.
Just out of curiosity, how would a person with this disad at an extreme
level act differently if s/he weren't insane, or didn't have another disad
to fight against it?
Alan
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 23:03:24 -0800
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On Saturday, February 21, 1998 12:35 AM, qts wrote:
>On Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:16:12 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
<snip>
>>Keep in mind that a Missile Deflection in a crowded place could be a
>>horrible thing, as innocent bystanders get mowed down by attacks you
>>deflected.
>
>That's exactly my reasoning.
That would make a fair reason for making it somewhat more expensive,
but why would it have to be a different power entirely? The power
Missile Deflection fits what we are describing _exactly_, except for
this one point. Why not create a new ability that can be added on to
Missile Deflection like Reflection already is, rather than try to make
powers that don't fit the described power well at all do the job
instead?
<snip>
>>
>>Not necessarily. I very well might, but any number of concepts I
might
>>allow would bypass that option. It could be a pocket dimension
created
>>for each attack individually. It could go directly into deep space,
or
>>a one-way gate could lead to the surface of a star. It could be a
>>dimension carefully selected in advance as completely empty by a
>>competent dimension traveller. It could even be a dimension
carefully
>>selected for each attack, so that bullets go to a universe where
>>everyone is ameboid and likes to eat lead and other metals, while
>>lasers are transfered to light-based beings who consider coherent
>>light "candy".
>
>If the PC hasn't purchased Transdimensional, it's a no-no.
Transdimensional on Missile Deflection would allow a character to
Missile Deflect attacks in another dimension. For this power it is
merely a SFX. If I have a Teleportation which is described as "takes
shortcut via another dimension", I don't need Transdimensional.
Neither do I need it here.
<snip>
>>
>>Why? I don't see why Dispel is necessarily superior. In fact, for
some
>>of these SFX, it is enormously _inferior_.
Note: Error in my last post. The power should have been 51 pts. effect
of Dispel, not 21. The equivallent of 17 dice, not 7. Otherwise I
believe it is correct.
><snip>
>
>I agree - sometimes even Force Wall or Force Field might be better.
>
Neither one of which do a much better job. All have upper limits, and
all cost too much for what is typically only a moderate advantage. The
GM would still have to put an upper limit on every attack, or else
overwhelm a power that is supposed to be unaffected by the power of
the attack being deflected and both cost more in Active Points by so
much I cannot believe they are worth it.
>> Are you really going to more than triple the
>>cost of my Missile Deflection, just because the attacks disappear?
>
>Yes, because having the attack go *nowhere* is a significant
advantage.
>
>>Additionally, your entire argument is based upon the assumption that
>>the incoming attack can be deflected somewhere.
>
>No! I see that you've completely misunderstood me. It's not 'can be
>deflected' but 'does get deflected'. The former is a form of
>*reflection*. It is an inbuilt disadbantage of MD that the attack
goes
>somewhere.
I'm sorry, I meant to say "always gets deflected", but I said it
wrong. I understand you.
>> Cap's shield bounces
>>some things, but many energy attacks are absorbed.
>
>If an attack is absorbed, it's not being deflected; ergo we use
>something else, like FF.
Some attacks against Cap bounce, some don't. In fact, I have never
seen a power in comics or elsewhere that reflected _everything_ it
could stop.
>> A laser should not bounce, for example.
>
>Why not? Point a torch at any shiny object: some of the light
bounces.
>Ever noticed how you can help illuminate something by putting a sheet
>of white paper nearby?
Of course. I am referring to a laser hitting Cap's shield, which
should at most scatter the attack. It is not reflective. Even if Cap's
shield were so shiny that it reflected lasers instead of destroying
them, it would still make them not dangerous, as its curved surface
would spread them. This goes double for Wonder Woman's bracelets. In
fact, a Missile Deflection that could bounce a laser is a hard one, as
it would require a flat silvered surface. Are all people with Missile
Deflection against energy attacks required to use flat silvered
surfaces?
Missile Deflection that sends attacks "nowhere" is perfectly valid. A
dimensional gate described as a "hole in space" cannot be properly
bought without it, Force Fields and Force Walls not withstanding. If I
can buy Missile Deflection that sends attacks directly back at a
target, I should be able to buy it where attacks go nowhere. The
second is considerably less advantageous than the first.
Filksinger
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 23:18:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Daniel R Palacio <dandan@cats.ucsc.edu>
X-Sender: dandan@si.UCSC.EDU
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Hello and Question
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On 21 Feb 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> DRP> be holding the rod in order to use his powers. How would I reflect
> DRP> this in game terms? Would it be an OAF (Personal, probably breakable)
> DRP> with the indirect (+3/4) advantage put on the multipower? Would it be
> DRP> an OIF with indirect? or would it just be a special effect?
>
> A Focus can and will sometimes be taken away from the character that owns
> it. This never happens with the Cosmic Rod, so it is probably not a Focus.
>
Thst's not true. At the ends of "Sins of the Child", thre is a
scene where Jack has to go through a maze where he gets beaten by thugs
in order to get his rod back.
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 23:22:24 -0800 (PST)
From: Daniel R Palacio <dandan@cats.ucsc.edu>
X-Sender: dandan@si.UCSC.EDU
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Hello and Question
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On 21 Feb 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> He did? Damn... I must have missed it. There is a serious hole in my
> collection of Starman issues.
>
Don't sweat it; I'm a neophyte myself.
> The point is that you have to ask yourself, "are the character's items ever
> taken away from him?" If the answer is "never" or "rarely" then the items
> in question are probably not Foci. In Jack's case, especially now that he
> can handle the Cosmic Rod at a distance, I think that whatever Focus
> limitation he may have had has been bought off.
I've been wondering: Would OHID work in this situation?
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: nolan@pop.erols.com
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 02:43:02 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Starman and OIHID (was: Hello and Question)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<x-rich>>> The point is that you have to ask yourself, "are the character's items ever
>> taken away from him?" If the answer is "never" or "rarely" then the items
>> in question are probably not Foci. In Jack's case, especially now that he
>> can handle the Cosmic Rod at a distance, I think that whatever Focus
>> limitation he may have had has been bought off.
>
> I've been wondering: Would OHID work in this situation?
Definately not. Starman specifically has no Secret ID. If anything, he's got a Public ID. Jack is always Starman, even when he's at home in his jammies.
Scott
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The house of every one is to him as his castle and fortress, as well for
his defence
against injury and violence as for his repose."
<bold> Sir Edward Coke, English Jurist 1549-1634</bold>,
<italic>Semayne's Case, 5 Rep. 91
</italic>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<bold>Scott C. Nolan
nolan@erols.com</bold>
</x-rich>
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Stainless Steel Rat\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 98 08:20:46
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On 21 Feb 1998 20:50:44 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes:
>
>q> The manner in which the BODY is applied is important. Unless the GM
>q> decides something different
>
>The attacker makes an OCV-based attack roll. If he hits, he does Body
>damage to the Entangle. Subtract the Entangle's DEF; subtract any
>remaining damage from the Entangle's current Body total.
>
>There is nothing for the GM to "decide" as this is clearly spelled out.
You're being deliberately obtuse: I wasn't talking about game
mechanics. Welcome to my killfile.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 20:11:05 +1100
From: Mad Hamish <h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Redefining the Action sequence by adding variety.
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 08:42 AM 2/21/98, qts wrote:
>On Fri, 20 Feb 1998 13:44:03 -0600 (CST), Dataweaver wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 20 Feb 1998, qts wrote:
>>
>>> Instead of using the SPD chart, how about rolling 2d6, then subtracting
>>> the character's SPD? The result (min 1 ie next segment) is the number
>>> of segments/seconds before they have another action. If an active
>>> participant has SPD 13-18 everyone rolls 3d6, 19-24 4d6 etc.
>>
>>...and if everyone has a SPD of 6 or less, roll 1d.
>
>I thought about this, and didn't really come to a conclusion either
>way.
>
>> It could work, except for the amount of die-rolling it would introduce...
>
>It's not so different to AD&D's initiative system.
>qts
>
You say that like it's a _good_ thing. <g>
****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************
Mad Hamish
Hamish Laws
h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au
h_laws@tassie.net.au
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 20:25:43 +1100
From: Mad Hamish <h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Hello and Question
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 10:28 AM 2/21/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "DRP" == Daniel R Palacio <dandan@cats.ucsc.edu> writes:
>
>DRP> Well, about two issues ago, we discovered that he doesn't need to
>DRP> be holding the rod in order to use his powers. How would I reflect
>DRP> this in game terms? Would it be an OAF (Personal, probably breakable)
>DRP> with the indirect (+3/4) advantage put on the multipower? Would it be
>DRP> an OIF with indirect? or would it just be a special effect?
>
>A Focus can and will sometimes be taken away from the character that owns
>it. This never happens with the Cosmic Rod, so it is probably not a Focus.
I believe it has happened a couple of times. Under the old JSA when they
were an alternate earth during the war the entire JSA was captured and the
Cosmic Rod was not with Starman.
I think the modern Starman lost it once as well, when he was captured by
the daughter of his father's enemy (and no, I don't remember who they are)
>
>It is, however, a slick way to acquire a high level of Indirect on many of
>its powers. An expensive ability, but what do you expect from one of the
>most powerful artifacts in the DC universe? :)
It not to affect yellow things? <g>
****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************
Mad Hamish
Hamish Laws
h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au
h_laws@tassie.net.au
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 98 09:45:31
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sat, 21 Feb 1998 23:03:24 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>On Saturday, February 21, 1998 12:35 AM, qts wrote:
>
>
>>On Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:16:12 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
><snip>
>>>Keep in mind that a Missile Deflection in a crowded place could be a
>>>horrible thing, as innocent bystanders get mowed down by attacks you
>>>deflected.
>>
>>That's exactly my reasoning.
>
>
>That would make a fair reason for making it somewhat more expensive,
>but why would it have to be a different power entirely? The power
>Missile Deflection fits what we are describing _exactly_, except for
>this one point.
<megasnip>
I do see what you're getting at; I just don't agree with it. Look at
the arrow-cutting graphic on p 81 - those arrows are going in random
directions - at least two in the picture could go and hit others.
Anyway, if we assume that Missile Deflection is the correct mechanic
for all the effects we've discussed, I would suggest we need an
advantage for attacks going *nowhere*. Since basic Reflection is +20
pts, +10 pts seems quite reasonable to me.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 08:00:30 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Mitch's Dilemma
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>There is a pretty good book called <cringe> "Those who stalk the
>night", maybe, at least I think thats right, by <grimace> Brian Lumley,
>or Humbly. I hate lending someone a book and then needing it for
>something :). This is the premise of Vamparism in the book.
>
>Warren
You are thinking of "Those Who Hunt the Night" (and its sequel, "Traveling
With the Dead") by Barbara Hambly. Brian Lumley's vampires, as portrayed
in his 'Necroscope' series, are entirely different.
Damon
---------------------
Every act of creation is first of all an act of destruction.
-- Pablo Picasso
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 07:20:17 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 11:59 PM 2/21/1998 EST, Firelynx16@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 98-02-21 20:49:17 EST, you write:
>
>> >>>>> "R" == Remnant <easleyap@mobis.com> writes:
>>
>> R> A terrorist who kills with a disad, "Believes in the Sanctity of Life."
>> R> I don't think so Rat.
>>
>> Like I said, look at the average anti-abortion terrorist, the kind of
>> person that murders people at planned parenting centers because he so
>> strongly believes that abortion is murder. I did not say that it was sane
>> (for whatever definition of "sane" you like), only that the belief is not
>> the same as a CAK.
>
>I agree with what Rat is saying here, but "Sanctity of Life" should probably
>have an asterisk with it to denote that to the pro-life terrorist, their
>"Sanctity of Life" Disad is waived if the victim is deemed 'evil'. Something
>like a twisted version of murder by reason of self defense, where a person
can
>belief that murder is wrong, but will waive their desire not to kill for self
>preservation or to save someone else.
Focus on that last part. From what I've read, they're willing to kill a
few dozen to save several thousand.
Basically, the anti-abortion terrorist combines "Believes in Sanctity of
Life" (Very Common, Strong) with "Vigilante Mentality" (Common, Strong).
At least, in my own view.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 98 17:06:46
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Yet another question
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sun, 22 Feb 1998 11:51:42 -0800 (PST), Daniel R Palacio wrote:
>
> Having just been introduced to the list, and not having seen an
>FAQ about the list itself, I am wondering: Is it against the rules to
>post writeups here? Is it simply frowned upon? Or is it just inadvisable,
>since there are dozens of you HERO mavens out there just waiting to pick
>the writeup apart and tell you how they would have done it?
Several of us have been willing to suffer the slings and arrows of our fellow readers,
posting both original characters as well as write-ups of published characters.
Personally, I like seeing how other people do things, so I enjoy reading posted
characters. As for the "dozens of you HERO mavens out there just waiting to pick the
writeup apart and tell you how they would have done it" - it also has it's uses. How thick
is your skin? Some people are polite in their criticisms, some aren't.
-=>John D.
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Mad Hamish\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 98 17:23:25
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Redefining the Action sequence by adding variety.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sun, 22 Feb 1998 20:11:05 +1100, Mad Hamish wrote:
>At 08:42 AM 2/21/98, qts wrote:
>>On Fri, 20 Feb 1998 13:44:03 -0600 (CST), Dataweaver wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 20 Feb 1998, qts wrote:
>>>
>>>> Instead of using the SPD chart, how about rolling 2d6, then subtracting
>>>> the character's SPD? The result (min 1 ie next segment) is the number
>>>> of segments/seconds before they have another action. If an active
>>>> participant has SPD 13-18 everyone rolls 3d6, 19-24 4d6 etc.
>>>
>>>...and if everyone has a SPD of 6 or less, roll 1d.
>>
>>I thought about this, and didn't really come to a conclusion either
>>way.
>>
>>> It could work, except for the amount of die-rolling it would introduce...
>>
>>It's not so different to AD&D's initiative system.
>>
>You say that like it's a _good_ thing. <g>
It's what most FRPers are used to.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 14:02:35 -0500 (EST)
From: THE MAD HARLEQUIN <ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Grant Morrison's "The Invisibles"
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Hi.
Well, the time has come where I must ask of the eternal fount of
wisdom (...that's you guys); I must acquire the statistics for a group of
individuals... so please, step up, take a stab or two, and keep the bloody
knife.
They are... <<fanfare> *ta-da!*>> ~~THE INVISIBLES~~
Well, if you haven't heard of them, they were spawned from Grant
Morrison's noggin' in the early ninties as part of DC's Vertigo line...
and they have yet to stop plauging their readers with interesting
pseudo-psycho mysticism and obscure references to the occult. Along with
some interesting symbolism and facinating plot twists, the comic plays
like a 60's british sci-fi series with 90's hyperkinetic sensability.
The cast is as follows:
King Mob, Lord Fanny, Jack Frost, Ragged Robin, and Boy.
Of course, the universe has pegged me as the only idiot savant
(emphasis on the idiot) who reads (and tries to understand) this comic
book, but can't for the life of me find suitable HERO statistics.
If anyone has heard of this comic book, read it, or is intersted
at a possible write-up, e-mail me...
...and if you've tried and succeded, than the fates are on your
side (or, more likely, mine if your share your knowledge).
-Jason
"This is going to be a _classic_. This _will_ be James Bond...
I'll kill `em all. They won't even _see_ me. Give us a kiss, love."
---King Mob, 'The Invisibles' vol. 2, issue no. 3 (Grant Morrison)
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: why@mail.superlink.net
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 14:36:39 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 09:45 AM 2/22/98, qts wrote:
<even bigger snip>
>I do see what you're getting at; I just don't agree with it. Look at
>the arrow-cutting graphic on p 81 - those arrows are going in random
>directions - at least two in the picture could go and hit others.
>
>Anyway, if we assume that Missile Deflection is the correct mechanic
>for all the effects we've discussed, I would suggest we need an
>advantage for attacks going *nowhere*. Since basic Reflection is +20
>pts, +10 pts seems quite reasonable to me.
Going nowhere on a Deflected attack could be the exact opposite effect the
character wants just as often as it could be good for the character. Suppose
Evil Arrow Man has been terrorizing the bank when Deflection Goes Nowhere Lad
pops into the scene and causes all of EAM's arrows to "go nowhere". Later
the police arrive and have no evidence that EAM ever fired the arrows since
they went away. (The survailance cameras had been destroyed before EAM
revealed his presence and all the normals ran when a smoke bomb went off.
They did not see that EAM fired the smoke bomb arrow into the bank.)
Deflected attacks which go nowhere, as opposed to a random direction, is a
+0 pts cost.
Do we also need to make an advantage for knockback: Can Hit Other Combatants?
No, we don't because that is SFX. Just like Deflection has a SFX. When you
run knockback in a game, if the character is knocked into someone else, do
you apply the KB damage to both people? That's what I do. The same thing
applies to Deflection. Likewise, you can KB someone into the ground making
sure they don't hit anyone else. Should that be cost extra points?
Remember, an advantage which is not an advantage has no cost. I don't feel
deflected nowhere is worth 10 points of STR or 3 points of DEX or anything
else you can spend 10 points on.
Joe
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 11:51:42 -0800 (PST)
From: Daniel R Palacio <dandan@cats.ucsc.edu>
X-Sender: dandan@ese.UCSC.EDU
Subject: Yet another question
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Having just been introduced to the list, and not having seen an
FAQ about the list itself, I am wondering: Is it against the rules to
post writeups here? Is it simply frowned upon? Or is it just inadvisable,
since there are dozens of you HERO mavens out there just waiting to pick
the writeup apart and tell you how they would have done it?
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 14:26:13 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> TRG> Fine, but I'll have to disagree. IMC, People can quite ably
> TRG> constitute "very common" for heroes who will be almost exclusively
> TRG> fighting against fellow humans. I'll give VC.
>
> I agree with another wording, that CAK applies to "cases where killing
> people would be tactically advantageous". In a combat-oriented campaign,
> as most supers games are, that is "common", not "very common".
Actually, the way I run it, it would almost always be "uncommon"
for situations where killing is advantageous. But I'll play it the way
the book suggests the way these lims work, and thats where
killing-potential combat situations come up. Those are VC. As a GM, I
always bring in a lot of complications if killing occurs, so . . .
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 14:29:51 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> > Why not? To protect that life he thinks is sacred, he will kill.
> >It might be a bit hypocritical, but it works fine w/o a CAK.
> A bit??? It is very hypocritical and begs to either be worded differently
> or balanced by another disad that allows for the hypocrisy. Like Joe
> Claffey's response or "Insane" as Rat seems to be suggesting.
Hey, I didn't create the world. I'm just trying to describe it.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: "Warren E Henderson III" <warren@newenglandpc.net>
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 98 21:03:45
Reply-To: "Warren E Henderson III" <warren@newenglandpc.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Mitch's Dilemma
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sun, 22 Feb 1998 08:00:30 -0600, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin
wrote:
>
>You are thinking of "Those Who Hunt the Night" (and its sequel, "Traveling
>With the Dead") by Barbara Hambly. Brian Lumley's vampires, as portrayed
>in his 'Necroscope' series, are entirely different.
You are completely correct. I have read both but don't know I confused
the authors. Barbara Hambly's books describe Vamparism being
transmitted much like the premise of the original post. Was the Sequel
as good as the first book?
Warren
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 14:26:48 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Yet another question
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 11:51 AM 2/22/1998 -0800, Daniel R Palacio wrote:
>
> Having just been introduced to the list, and not having seen an
>FAQ about the list itself, I am wondering: Is it against the rules to
>post writeups here? Is it simply frowned upon? Or is it just inadvisable,
>since there are dozens of you HERO mavens out there just waiting to pick
>the writeup apart and tell you how they would have done it?
We used to get them on a regular basis, and a lot of us miss them. I,
for one, would welcome nice, full write-ups for generic-universe villains
under the Fourth Edition rules. Others here like Hero System write-ups for
published heroes and villains, or movie characters. It's just a matter of
taste.
Of course, that doesn't mean that we *won't* pick apart your write-up.
But it will certainly be welcome, and we'll be glad to see it.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 16:09:51 -0800
From: Redraven <wingers@home.com>
Organization: Redraven Productions
Subject: Bring your Characters to Life with Custom Artwork by Redraven Productions
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
See the latest in Custom Character Art at the Redraven Productions site
at Http://members.home.net/wingers/redraven.htm in the New Picture
Gallery.
Your characters too can step off the page and into the real world, by
contacting Redraven Productions about commissioning Custom Character
art.
--
Redraven Productions
Http://members.home.net/wingers/redraven.htm
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 19:28:03 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Yet another question
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On Sun, 22 Feb 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> At 11:51 AM 2/22/1998 -0800, Daniel R Palacio wrote:
> >
> > Having just been introduced to the list, and not having seen an
> >FAQ about the list itself, I am wondering: Is it against the rules to
> >post writeups here? Is it simply frowned upon? Or is it just inadvisable,
> >since there are dozens of you HERO mavens out there just waiting to pick
> >the writeup apart and tell you how they would have done it?
>
> We used to get them on a regular basis, and a lot of us miss them.
Yeah, I know. I talked about getting out stuff for "Big Trouble in Little
China". However, I am/was working on some art projects and all that (as
well have a healthy dose of real life) so let me see what I can do.
> for one, would welcome nice, full write-ups for generic-universe villains
> under the Fourth Edition rules. Others here like Hero System write-ups for
> published heroes and villains, or movie characters. It's just a matter of
> taste.
True. I usually post adaptions of anime/magna/movie characters.
> Of course, that doesn't mean that we *won't* pick apart your write-up.
> But it will certainly be welcome, and we'll be glad to see it.
Well, yeah. And often, I will incorporate C&C into a second edition
version of the character. Although I have been suprised at the characters
that I've posted that people never said 'boo' about. The 1050 point
version of Tetsuo ("Akira") comes to mind.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
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* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
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Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 17:09:29 -0800
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From: Jim Dickinson <champion@cyberhighway.net>
Subject: REVIEW: WebRPG
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Since many of you have asked me to report back on my WebRPG exploits here
is my official review, to appear soon on my website as well:
WebRPG -- Online Gaming
I don't remember how I found it, but one day about a month ago, I found
myself surfing the WebRPG website at <http://www.webrpg.com>. What follows
are my unbiased views (but I would be willing to entertain the notion of
bribery...) of the website and software.
The Website:
Though not particularly remarkable in aesthetics (though not
unattractive), I found it to be easily navigable, and full of interesting
information. WebRPG publishes a regular online newsletter and emails the
headlines out to WebRPG members. Membership is free, but you get stuck
with an AOL-like login, mine "sd27605", that you have to write down,
remember, and use frequently. I found myself renaming the Win95 shortcuts
to the webpages and software that would call for me to enter the username,
just so I'd have it handy.
Articles in the webzine were often interesting, and generally non-game
specific, and they have interesting "Top 10" like articles assembled from
member responses to surveys. WebRPG seems to welcome feedback regularly,
and every article has a feedback form at the end. I am assuming since they
are asking so often, that they plan to implement worthy suggestions in the
future. I think that is a good idea.
But the most interesting part of the website to me was the Game Scheduler.
Only available to members for the purpose of announcing upcoming game
sessions using their software, I found this to be a very cool utility.
When logging into the Scheduler CGI, you are asked to give the present time
where you are. The Scheduler will then present to you in chronological
order, the games that are ahead. The best part is the way it presents this
information to you in terms of YOUR TIME ZONE, so there is no confusion
about when you should show up for the game! That has been a large part of
the confusion, in my experience, in getting people together from all over.
That blasted time zone thing is always getting in the way.
On the Game Signup page, you are given the GM's name and email address,
when the game is scheduled for, number of players (both currently signed up
and max number of slots), and then the game system. Then you can read the
game description as written by the GM. Next to the game is a button to
click if you want to sign up for the game. If the game is full, there will
be no button.
If you are a GM, you will have additional buttons to click to "remove"
someone from the signup, or to cancel the game. As a player, if you are
already signed up for a game, a button will allow you to cancel out of the
game and free up the slot for someone else to grab. When you sign up or
cancel, you are sent a confirmation email by the Scheduler, and the GM is
notified by email as well.
Again, I think the game scheduler is brilliant, and is the true highlight
of the website.
The WebRPG Software:
Now in version 1.4.1, there are many components to download and
install...even more than were let on at first. WebRPG is written in Java,
so it is generally cross-platform. This is good, because I have seen far
too many other chat programs that are platform specific, leaving people out
of the fun (like ICQ and Powwow). So I downloaded the Java Environment,
and then downloaded the WebRPG software. Then after installing Java first,
then the WebRPG software, I had to spend another 15 minutes or so while the
program compared itself to 1.4.1 and downloaded other components to install
as well. But after that, I was ready to Rumble! Good thing, too, because
after all that anticipation, I was ready to go!
The first screen I was met with was my login screen, again asking me to
provide that login id. I wish it would remember some of that. Oh well.
After logging in, WebRPG takes a few minutes to compare itself again to the
latest version, and then presents you with a list of games currently
running (like a chat room listing). By the way, I think the overall look
the of the program is very nice, but is not generally designed for screens
smaller than 600x800 (like my 640x480 screen at home).
An important side note: WebRPG requires tremendous system resources. At
home, I have a decrepit 486 DX2-66 with 12MB RAM. This is probably the
very least you would want to run this on, as I found myself generally
plagued with crashes and lock-ups. However, the system I use at work, a
Pentium 200MMX with 64MB RAM was no problem at all. Also WebRPG recommends
that you allow Java to install a newer version of winsock. I am not sure
this has been such a good thing, as now other applications occasionally
crash, when they had worked just fine before. But I can't say for sure, so
I will just leave it at that.
The software interface is pretty clean, allowing for you click on any of
the listed game/chat rooms to see more details, like the players' names and
a description of the game. Games can also be password protected by the
game room host to keep out unwanted visitors. Players with the password
will be able to get in. You can also choose to host your own game, and are
then asked to provide a Game Name, password if desired, and a game
description.
After joining or hosting a game, the program AGAIN loads elements it needs
to bring you to the game room screen. I would rather be able to pick and
choose what is loaded, rather than endure having to load up Earthdawn (an
obvious sponsor) stuff every time.
The game room interface is also pretty easy to get a handle on, and is
also customizable to a degree. The game room is supposed to provide you
with all the elements you need to simulate a "virtual game table" that you
and your players would be seated around. There are dice available (typical
polyhedral gaming options, 1d3 through d%), as well as a box that you can
enter more complex dice combinations or even simple mathematical
expressions (e.g. 5d6+1d8+10 or (3d6*100)/5, etc.). Results of dice rolls
can be publicly viewed, or only between the player and GM.
There is also a chat area, where players and GM can converse, and there is
a whisper function as well as an emote command (e.g. typing /he or /she at
the beginning of the line substitutes your name in its place so you could
type "/he smiles" and it would type "Sharky smiles"). You can customize
your name, so you can use your character's name for instance, and you can
change the color of your messages. This makes for a pretty nice chat
interface. There have been times with ICQ and Powwow that I wish I could
emote, and times in IRC I wish everyone could type in a different color to
keep it clear who is talking.
WebRPG comes with a toolbox players and GMs can use to build custom
character sheets, note pads, preset dice mechanics, etc. There is also a
Map area, with miniatures included, so you can literally move pieces around
the map and see where things are. Again, this is way ahead of other chat
programs.
Running a Game in WebRPG -- My experience:
OK. After playing with the built-in tutorial for a while, I decided I
would try to run a game on WebRPG. By the game room list, and scheduled
games, AD&D seemed to be the most popular choice. So, not being a fan of
AD&D, and having chucked all my books so many years ago, I decided to stick
to something Fantasy oriented. My favorite game at the present are:
Fantasy Hero and FUDGE. I thought it would be fun to try FUDGE, seeing as
it was so easy to play, but I couldn't figure out a decent way to roll dF
(FUDGE Dice, two sides are "+" two sides are "-" and two sides are blank;
like a d3 but using d3 would be very confusing) so I gave up on that.
Maybe if there is enough interest, the WebRPG programmers would add dF
mechanics to the list of other dice. ;-)
Fantasy Hero would be a little too involved for new players, and after
playing around with the character sheets, I decided that especially for my
first game, I wouldn't try to make something as complex as a Fantasy Hero
character sheet.
So I decided to pull out and dust off my old Tunnels & Trolls rules, and
use them instead. I grew up on T&T, having wasted away weekend nights in
Phoenix, AZ hanging out at Flying Buffalo, so it has always been an old
favorite. It was fun to find an excuse to bring it back out and revisit
lots of good memories. Building the character sheet was a small challenge,
but it was fun to play with how the Java elements work and interact with
each other. Don't get me wrong, building a character sheet is as simple as
Drag and Drop, but I am picky and wanted the sheets to look good and be
functional.
I scheduled a game on the Scheduler (and mistakenly set it for the wrong
night) and found that T&T isn't all that popular, or well-known (not that I
expected it to be). However, every time I was online building character
sheets, or working on saving "pre-written blocks of narrative text" for the
game, I found that there were always people willing to drop in and look at
what I was doing and ask questions. This was actually a better tool in
getting players than posting my game, but I think that this is mostly
because I chose to run a game that was basically unknown. I suspect that
if the game was more popular, I would have had people sign up pretty quick,
as evidenced by the full AD&D games on the scheduler.
(Having to work on all my stuff online was inconvenient, though, since I
would have preferred to work offline and get everything done without
interruption. I understand that WebRPG programmers are already working on
a GM's Utility that will allow them to build all their stuff off-line.)
One thing that really bothered me was that I had to act like I was on a
very unstable system (because on my home computer, it was) so I had to
implement the "save early, save often" mentality in order to make any
progress preparing for my game. I can't tell you how frustrating it was to
spend 20 minutes writing up some great narratives, only to have the Java
crash, and having to start all over again. For the most part, I decided to
write narratives offline in .txt format, then copy and paste them into not
pads in WebRPG -- and then save them quickly!
The night of my game, I realized that I was a day off on scheduling my
game, so I contacted the two who signed up and explained my error.
I got online about an hour early to make sure there was time to get set up
and to help anyone who needed it make a character. One of the scheduled
players showed up and three others asked to play as well. So the five of
us got through character creation and were getting ready to roll, when my
machine crashed. After rebooting and logging back in, we tried again, only
to be met with a few more problems with my computer and so on. This was
very frustrating.
And then there was lag. It's apparently not enough that words must be
typed, but that there is (at times) an additional few second delay between
people talking...but that wasn't nearly as bad as locking up...
Overall the game went well, we only accomplished a fraction of what might
have been done in an hour of face-to-face gaming, but if you don't have a
gaming group to meet with, or you are so busy you can only game late at
night, then this may very well be a great program for you.
After the game, the two players that stuck with me after being
disconnected multiple times had a great time making their way into the
Cellar of the Bronze Griffon Tavern chasing a goblin thief. They fought
their first fight against some Giant Rats the goblin set after them, and
took a good licking before killing them...and that was about as far as we
got. The role-playing of the character intros in the tavern, and their
exploring the Cellar took up over an hour, and the combat took about 45
minutes (but that was probably mostly because I was explaining the game
mechanics as we went). We didn't use the Map features. I didn't want to
push it from my home computer.
So overall, I'd say that WebRPG is the best thing that has happened to
online live Role-Playing Games in a long time. If you have a computer
that's better than mine, and you don't have a game group to get together
with, or are too busy to meet up with your group at their time, you are in
for a good time. I think this setup has some really great features, and
even better potential!
Jim Dickinson
"The Game Knight"
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 22 Feb 1998 20:10:43 -0500
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>>>>> "F" == Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> writes:
F> I agree with a good portion of what you're saying. The major problem I
F> have is when you said earlier that a 25 point CAK would include
F> *everything* (humans, animals, ants, etc),
Considering that a 20-point CAK applies only to people, according to the
BBB, a 25-point CAK would be a much larger group of things the character
will not kill.
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\
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!)
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 22 Feb 1998 20:14:19 -0500
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>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes:
q> You're being deliberately obtuse: I wasn't talking about game
q> mechanics.
It is a pity that you take that attitude about what was a discussion about
game mechanics and has been from the beginning.
It is also a pity that you decided to plonk me for your own
misunderstanding. But you won't be reading this. Your loss. Maybe
someone else will point this out to you.
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Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 21:19:20 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Mitch's Dilemma
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>>You are thinking of "Those Who Hunt the Night" (and its sequel, "Traveling
>>With the Dead") by Barbara Hambly. Brian Lumley's vampires, as portrayed
>>in his 'Necroscope' series, are entirely different.
>
>You are completely correct. I have read both but don't know I confused
>the authors. Barbara Hambly's books describe Vamparism being
>transmitted much like the premise of the original post. Was the Sequel
>as good as the first book?
I wonder if sequels ever get a fair shot at being as good as the first
book, especially in a case like this. Given that part of what makes a book
like this (by which I mean, a vampire novel) enjoyable is doing an old
story with a new twist...well, a sequel doesn't have a chance to do that
very often. By definition, it's going to continue something started in a
previous book.
However, I would recommend "Traveling With the Dead" to anyone who enjoyed
"Those Who Hunt the Night". In addition to the change of venue -- about
half the book takes place in Constantinople -- we get a lot more background
and insight into Don Ysidro and James and Lydia Asher. The characters are
therefore familiar without being just the same personalities they were the
first time around.
Damon
========================
Where there is sorrow, there is holy ground.
-- Oscar Wilde
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From: Firelynx16@aol.com
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 00:13:37 EST
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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In a message dated 98-02-22 20:15:55 EST, you write:
> F> I agree with a good portion of what you're saying. The major problem I
> F> have is when you said earlier that a 25 point CAK would include
> F> *everything* (humans, animals, ants, etc),
>
> Considering that a 20-point CAK applies only to people, according to the
> BBB, a 25-point CAK would be a much larger group of things the character
> will not kill.
Or it could be that the particular character in question will come across more
people than the benchmark 'average campaign' that was suggested in BBB, which
would make just people alone Very Common. I just think that it's dangerous to
try to establish any kind of 'standard' that has to be applied to each
character. In other words, no cookie cutter disads. It should, IMHO, be a
case by case basis. The Examples in the BBB are just that, Examples. They
are not meant to be used as the only possibilities for a given Psych Lim.
Each character is going to have a different reason(s) for coming to the
decision that killing or deadly force is a horrible thing that should be
avoided at all costs. Each character is also going to experience situations
different from any other character. Therefore, each CAK Disad is going to be,
by definition, unique.
They will probably gravitate to a "norm", much like the 20 pt CAK given in the
book, but it's not a *rule*.
That's all I'm saying...
'Lynx
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Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 00:59:51 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Organization: Satan's Children
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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Firelynx16@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 98-02-22 20:15:55 EST, you write:
>
> > F> I agree with a good portion of what you're saying. The major problem I
> > F> have is when you said earlier that a 25 point CAK would include
> > F> *everything* (humans, animals, ants, etc),
> >
> > Considering that a 20-point CAK applies only to people, according to the
> > BBB, a 25-point CAK would be a much larger group of things the character
> > will not kill.
>
> Or it could be that the particular character in question will come across more
> people than the benchmark 'average campaign' that was suggested in BBB, which
> would make just people alone Very Common. I just think that it's dangerous to
> try to establish any kind of 'standard' that has to be applied to each
> character. In other words, no cookie cutter disads. It should, IMHO, be a
> case by case basis. The Examples in the BBB are just that, Examples. They
> are not meant to be used as the only possibilities for a given Psych Lim.
Right. The determining factors in Psych Lims (and Phys Lims, for that
matter) are Frequency of Limitation and Severity of Limitation. A VERY
COMMON limitation may simply be that the character must try to prevent
all of his/her TEAMMATES from killing as well (that would be Very Common
and Fanatic), OR apply his/her disad to trees and plants ("ALL life is
sacred"), OR all mammals, OR etc. The frequency of occurance can be
defined in a myriad of ways, so a 25-point CAK can easily allow a
character to have mosquito zappers and kick dogs at a whim, depending on
how it is defined.
I had a character (Captain Spith, in fact) with a 20-point CAK, who -
at one point during a game - ended up screaming and fighting for the
death of a particular villian. The villian was an immortal paid
assasin, and was not willing to voluntarily give up his 'profession'.
So in Cap'n Spith;s mind, the death of this one assasin would be serving
the greater good and was the only answer to the problem. I felt (as did
the GM) that this was consistent with the basis for Cap'n Spith's CAK,
and was a fun twist on his usual long arguements with the team's
terrorist ninja-type against killing one's foes. Also, this partuicular
situation only came up once in a four-year long game.
---
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
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Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 02:11:07 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: saxmaker@teleport.com
Organization: Satan's Children
Subject: Re: Redefining the Action sequence by adding variety.
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Dave Mattingly wrote:
>
> > Instead of using the SPD chart, how about rolling 2d6, then subtracting
> > the character's SPD? The result (min 1 ie next segment) is the number
> > of segments/seconds before they have another action. If an active
> > participant has SPD 13-18 everyone rolls 3d6, 19-24 4d6 etc.
> Instead, try using poker chips in a bag. Each character takes a
> particular color, and puts a number of chips equal to his speed in the
> bag. As chips are pulled out, characters get actions. And when the bags
> are empty, the round is over, since everyone has had their speed number
> of actions.
My last game session, I tried a method rather similar. I gave
everyone Chips (not poker chips, but identifiable, distinct Chips of a
similar ilk) equal to their SPD score, then when combat began, I would
count down DEX --- ONCE. Everyone could act on their DEX, and then
every 3 dex below that. Thus a SPD 5 with 23 DEX would be able to act
at DEX 23, 20, 17, 14, and 11.
However; one could also delay one's action, thus the aforementioned
character COULD act on 23, 20, then delay ('save his/her phase) until
DEX 11 for their next action. But thereafter could not act again until
DEX 8.
Every action, the player would 'spend' one Chip to keep track of
his/her SPD. If anyone had chips left after DEX 1 (delaying phases too
long) those 'phases were lost, and a new turn started. I found this to
work VERY well in my last game, though I have more research on this
method to do before I can fully recommend it for all applications. The
only real limitation is that SPD must be no less than 1/3 of a
character's DEX score. But this is rarely a problem, and in those cases
where it may be, accomodations can be made. I.E., a SPD 6, DEX 14
character could act every 2 DEX, on DEX 14, 12, 10, 8, 6, and 4.
I've found that this really lends itself to a more action/reaction
exchange between the characters and NPCs. And you don't have so many
'phases' where one person acts, but everyone else has to wait for next
phase; or the High SPD character doesn;t get to act when all the low SPD
characters do.
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
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Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 10:49:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Sean Daniel <nerfduck@rocketmail.com>
Subject: mulit-genre support
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To: champ-l@omg.org
I'm a big fan of multi-genre games where you mix high tech, magic, or
whatever together and try to make a game of it. Although the game
mechanics are a mess at times, one of my favorite to role play in is
TORG by WESTEND. One of the main ways TORG balances the diffrent
genres is to suppress things that aren't supported by the dimension
your PC is in (like using a high tech item in low tech or magic
setting) even to the point it just plain doesn't work.
My friends and I have tried to to simulate this in Champs/hero but
mostly has been "GM says it doens't work" and rolling some skill rolls
to make it work.
Anyone have any ideas of how to create a set of world laws (as they
are called in TORG) for the Hero system? something where if world is
of tech-a but the gun is of higher world-b then the gun often won't
work for various reasons.
The best idea we've had is to set arbitrary values similar to TORG's
for tech/magic/spirit/social levels for a given world onto everything
a charator has and treat it like a speical effect. then have set of
rules for each world that target that special effect/value if it is
exceeded.
if anyone has played TORG and knows the Hero system I;d like to hear
some idea.
>From the land beyond, beyond...
Sean D
===
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 98 21:12:56
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)
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On Sun, 22 Feb 1998 14:36:39 -0500, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>At 09:45 AM 2/22/98, qts wrote:
><even bigger snip>
>>I do see what you're getting at; I just don't agree with it. Look at
>>the arrow-cutting graphic on p 81 - those arrows are going in random
>>directions - at least two in the picture could go and hit others.
>>
>>Anyway, if we assume that Missile Deflection is the correct mechanic
>>for all the effects we've discussed, I would suggest we need an
>>advantage for attacks going *nowhere*. Since basic Reflection is +20
>>pts, +10 pts seems quite reasonable to me.
>
>Going nowhere on a Deflected attack could be the exact opposite effect the
>character wants just as often as it could be good for the character.
As a combat effect, it is very powerful.
>Do we also need to make an advantage for knockback: Can Hit Other Combatants?
>No, we don't because that is SFX. Just like Deflection has a SFX. When you
>run knockback in a game, if the character is knocked into someone else, do
>you apply the KB damage to both people?
I've never used knockback - I GM Fantasy Hero.
>Remember, an advantage which is not an advantage has no cost. I don't feel
>deflected nowhere is worth 10 points of STR or 3 points of DEX or anything
>else you can spend 10 points on.
OK, it's your game, but how else do you prevent innocents getting
accidently hurt?
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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From: "Chris Lea" <cdlea@hotmail.com>
Subject: [HERO] Re: multi-genre support
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 13:23:44 PST
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>From: Sean Daniel <nerfduck@rocketmail.com>
>
>I'm a big fan of multi-genre games where you mix high tech,
>magic, or whatever together and try to make a game of it.
I'd suggest something along the lines of giving every such
artifact (Activation 11-, Burnout) to be applied the first
time that something is used in a particular world, (I
wouldn't actually calculate the points for this.) If the
object works, then it will always work in this world,
although a magical sword would still work as an ordinary
sword.
Every world gets a Tech or Magic rating of -5 to +5, which
affects the above Activation roll.
If a character was an actual wizard, then the Magic rating
would affect his/her Magic skill.
For Mental powers, add another rating and have all Mental
powers take Requires a Skill Roll.
Chris
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From: JJP3337@aol.com
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 17:10:41 EST
Subject: Re: [HERO] Re: multi-genre support
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>I'm a big fan of multi-genre games where you mix high tech,
>magic, or whatever together and try to make a game of it.
I'd suggest something along the lines of giving every such
artifact (Activation 11-, Burnout) to be applied the first
time that something is used in a particular world, (I
wouldn't actually calculate the points for this.) If the
object works, then it will always work in this world,
although a magical sword would still work as an ordinary
sword.
Every world gets a Tech or Magic rating of -5 to +5, which
affects the above Activation roll.
If a character was an actual wizard, then the Magic rating
would affect his/her Magic skill.
For Mental powers, add another rating and have all Mental
powers take Requires a Skill Roll.
Chris
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From: "Chris Lea" <cdlea@hotmail.com>
Subject: [HERO] Re: multi-genre support
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Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 13:23:44 PST
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That isn't a bad idea but 14 or less would make it less penalizing for the
players, and make them more likely to take the jump into another world or
setting...conversly you could alter the bonus or negative based on the
availability of items in the new world...I.E. are the components or idea of
such items common or uncommon on the new world...another thing to take into
account is the laws of physics on a given world...magic and tech sometimes
don't mix at all in that regard and technological devices simply don't
function regardless of Activation ect. In such a case having the player role
would be pointless.
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Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 18:26:20 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)
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> >Going nowhere on a Deflected attack could be the exact opposite effect the
> >character wants just as often as it could be good for the character.
>
> As a combat effect, it is very powerful.
Could be very powerful. Could be exactly what you don't want.
> OK, it's your game, but how else do you prevent innocents getting
> accidently hurt?
Define the SFX of the MD to work in that way. No prob.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 17:09:59 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
Subject: Re: REVIEW: WebRPG
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My favorite aspect of the webRPG has always been the townhall forums:
General Index:
http://www.webrpg.com/?link=townhall/index.html
Champions Forum:
http://www.webrpg.com/?link=townhall/43/index.html
General SuperHero:
http://www.webrpg.com/?link=townhall/42/index.html
and now they have also added a links section:
General:
http://www.webrpg.com/jquery/jquery.cgi?query=rpglib
And Super Hero:
http://www.webrpg.com/jquery/jquery.cgi?query=rpglib&CatID=1&SubCatID=22
I've been reading the WebRPG since mid last year.
--
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
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Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:01:10 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)
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At 09:12 PM 2/23/98, qts wrote:
>On Sun, 22 Feb 1998 14:36:39 -0500, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>
>>At 09:45 AM 2/22/98, qts wrote:
>><even bigger snip>
>>>I do see what you're getting at; I just don't agree with it. Look at
>>>the arrow-cutting graphic on p 81 - those arrows are going in random
>>>directions - at least two in the picture could go and hit others.
>>>
>>>Anyway, if we assume that Missile Deflection is the correct mechanic
>>>for all the effects we've discussed, I would suggest we need an
>>>advantage for attacks going *nowhere*. Since basic Reflection is +20
>>>pts, +10 pts seems quite reasonable to me.
>>
>>Going nowhere on a Deflected attack could be the exact opposite effect the
>>character wants just as often as it could be good for the character.
>
>As a combat effect, it is very powerful.
No, it isn't. As I said: It is equally powerful to have the effect not
disappear. If I'm surrounded by orcs and someone throws a dagger at me. I
can rely on the fact that, in your world, the dagger will hit one of the
orcs if I deflect it. If I had defined my magic deflection as "goes
nowhere", there wouldn't be one less orc to whump me.
>>Do we also need to make an advantage for knockback: Can Hit Other
Combatants?
>>No, we don't because that is SFX. Just like Deflection has a SFX. When you
>>run knockback in a game, if the character is knocked into someone else, do
>>you apply the KB damage to both people?
>
>I've never used knockback - I GM Fantasy Hero.
So I guess you don't do Hercules/Xena FH? :-) That would be a fun source
book.
>>Remember, an advantage which is not an advantage has no cost. I don't feel
>>deflected nowhere is worth 10 points of STR or 3 points of DEX or anything
>>else you can spend 10 points on.
>
>OK, it's your game, but how else do you prevent innocents getting
>accidently hurt?
You declare that you are deflecting and the choose to fail the attack roll.
The dagger automatically hits you instead. That's the problem of the
person with the deflection. Since he did not take, goes nowhere, he has to
worry about that. But really, how often are there innocents in a battle?
It is not worth 10 points. It is not worth 5 points.
Joe
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Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:11:20 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: mulit-genre support
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At 10:49 AM 2/23/98 -0800, Sean Daniel wrote:
>I'm a big fan of multi-genre games where you mix high tech, magic, or
>whatever together and try to make a game of it. Although the game
>mechanics are a mess at times, one of my favorite to role play in is
>TORG by WESTEND. One of the main ways TORG balances the diffrent
>genres is to suppress things that aren't supported by the dimension
>your PC is in (like using a high tech item in low tech or magic
>setting) even to the point it just plain doesn't work.
I don't know TORG, but: If you are dimension hopping a lot. Just make it a
game effect. As a limitation it is worth 0 points since all powers will
have the same problem. If the game takes place on a specific dimension,
then use Activation, as appropriate, to model the frequency that the stuff
will work.
>Anyone have any ideas of how to create a set of world laws (as they
>are called in TORG) for the Hero system? something where if world is
>of tech-a but the gun is of higher world-b then the gun often won't
>work for various reasons.
Add "world of origin" to the SFX of the focus. Then create a chart of
Activations for each pairing:
Current --------- Origin World ----------
World Tech-a Tech-b Magic-a Magic-b
Tech-a auto 14- 14- 11-
Tech-b 14- auto 8- 12-
Magic-a 11- 12- auto auto
Magic-b 8- 10- 14- auto
Note that the values don't have to be the same for each pairing. (Of
course, with this sample chart you might require that all Magic-b foci take
a +1/4 advantage since they are the most compatible.)
>The best idea we've had is to set arbitrary values similar to TORG's
>for tech/magic/spirit/social levels for a given world onto everything
>a charator has and treat it like a speical effect. then have set of
>rules for each world that target that special effect/value if it is
>exceeded.
Oh, yeah, what you said. Hope this helped.
Joe
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Mitch's Dilemma
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 00:01:31 -0800
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On Saturday, February 21, 1998 11:46 PM, Warren E. Henderson III
wrote:
>On Fri, 20 Feb 1998 18:12:00 +0000, Theala Sildorian
>wrote:
>
>>Make Vampire: 3d6 Major Transform, culmulative, must
>force victim to
>>drink vampire blood (this is drawn from White Wolf'f
>Vampire: TM),
>
>Or Bram Stoker even ;).
Or legends before him. Bram Stoker took all of Dracula's abilities
from legends of the area surrounding Transylvania, Carpathia, and
Walachia (sp?), which was Dracula's actual home.
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Mitch's Dilemma
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 00:03:15 -0800
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On Saturday, February 21, 1998 11:46 PM, Warren E. Henderson III
wrote:
>On Fri, 20 Feb 1998 22:06:06 -0500 (EST), THE MAD HARLEQUIN wrote:
>
>> A certain paradigm must exist in order for the person to become a
>>'creature of the darkness.' It's not so much a physical
transformation as
>>it is a psychological one.
>
>There is a pretty good book called <cringe> "Those who stalk the
>night", maybe, at least I think thats right, by <grimace> Brian
Lumley,
>or Humbly. I hate lending someone a book and then needing it for
>something :). This is the premise of Vamparism in the book.
>
The book is "Those Who Hunt the Night", by Barbara Hambly. There is a
sequel, "Travelling with the Dead". Both are good reads, as is most of
her
work. These two books are two of my favorite vampire novels, the best
being "The Dracula Tapes", by Fred Saberhagen. It is the story of
Dracula, told by Dracula himself. It is the same story as the original
book, save that a) Dracula is not a monster, and b) his version makes
more sense than the original.
Filksinger
"The crept through the blackest shadows, where only God and Dracula
could see them."
The Dracula Tapes, by Fred Saberhagen
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 00:05:28 -0800
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On Sunday, February 22, 1998 9:16 AM, qts wrote:
>On Sat, 21 Feb 1998 23:03:24 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>
>>On Saturday, February 21, 1998 12:35 AM, qts wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:16:12 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>><snip>
>>>>Keep in mind that a Missile Deflection in a crowded place could be
a
>>>>horrible thing, as innocent bystanders get mowed down by attacks
you
>>>>deflected.
>>>
>>>That's exactly my reasoning.
>>
>>
>>That would make a fair reason for making it somewhat more expensive,
>>but why would it have to be a different power entirely? The power
>>Missile Deflection fits what we are describing _exactly_, except for
>>this one point.
>
><megasnip>
>
>I do see what you're getting at; I just don't agree with it. Look at
>the arrow-cutting graphic on p 81 - those arrows are going in random
>directions - at least two in the picture could go and hit others.
>
>Anyway, if we assume that Missile Deflection is the correct mechanic
>for all the effects we've discussed, I would suggest we need an
>advantage for attacks going *nowhere*. Since basic Reflection is +20
>pts, +10 pts seems quite reasonable to me.
Perfect. I agree that it should be paid for, as it is definitely
better than the default of random directions.
Filksinger
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From: DocWeird@aol.com
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 03:44:04 EST
Subject: WebRPG-add FREE RPG IN INQUEST
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OK I know this isn't champs, HERO, or anything like that, but a free game
is a free game........................
Inquest magazine's Feb. issue, has the entire players guide to the
EARTHDAWN game
Also---all the nedded webRPG software
----------------------------------thought you'd like to know--------Doc
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Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 06:27:38 -0600
From: Mike Whitney <mwhitney@swbell.net>
Subject: Re: REVIEW: WebRPG
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Jim Dickinson wrote:
> So overall, I'd say that WebRPG is the best thing that has happened to
> online live Role-Playing Games in a long time. If you have a computer
> that's better than mine, and you don't have a game group to get together
> with, or are too busy to meet up with your group at their time, you are in
> for a good time. I think this setup has some really great features, and
> even better potential!
I could not disagree more with you. WebRPG is an interesting TOY, and that's about
it. I've been trying to use it since last August, and while it's a nice concept, it
isn't implemented very well at all. While using it, you will experience numerous
screen freezes, system crashes, and lockups. There there is the problem with being
somewhat disconnected...YOU can still type and do things in the screen, but no one can
see you. And guess what? You can't reconnect to it...you've been effectively locked
out of the game by the software.
And interesting concept, but it's not ready for prime time. You're in for a VERY
frustrating time if you try this software. It's slow, it's extremely buggy, and
should never have been released. I'd be ashamed to have my name associated with it in
it's current state.
Mike
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: REVIEW: WebRPG
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 06:05:43 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> > So overall, I'd say that WebRPG is the best thing that has happened to
> > online live Role-Playing Games in a long time. If you have a computer
> > that's better than mine, and you don't have a game group to get together
> > with, or are too busy to meet up with your group at their time, you are in
> > for a good time. I think this setup has some really great features, and
> > even better potential!
>
> I could not disagree more with you. WebRPG is an interesting TOY, and that's about
>
[assorted rant snipped]
> And interesting concept, but it's not ready for prime time. You're in for a VERY
> frustrating time if you try this software. It's slow, it's extremely buggy, and
> should never have been released. I'd be ashamed to have my name associated with it in
> it's current state.
Well, it is free.
If they charged for it, the bugs would be valid things to complain about. But
at this point I'd say as long as it stays free until they've worked everything
out; look at yourself as a playtester.
Have you been telling them about the bugs you get?
Rook
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Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:37:30 -0500
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: CAK and the Undead
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At 09:52 AM 2/24/98 -0500, you wrote:
Firelynx16@aol.com wrote:
>
>I agree with what Rat is saying here, but "Sanctity of Life" should probably
>have an asterisk with it to denote that to the pro-life terrorist, their
>"Sanctity of Life" Disad is waived if the victim is deemed 'evil'. Something
>like a twisted version of murder by reason of self defense, where a person
can
>belief that murder is wrong, but will waive their desire not to kill for self
>preservation or to save someone else.
>
This sort of complexity is why I seldom enforce a psych lim strictly as
it's written on the character sheet. I encourage players to word their
psych lims as carefully as possible; for the above example, I might suggest
"Believes in Sanctity of Life, except for "evil" persons." But even that
leaves a lot of room for interpretation - what constitutes evil? A
paragraph might begin to define the basic issues of such a psych lim, a few
pages might flesh it out well enough to play a character quite well, while
such beliefs in real life can become the topic of hundreds of books and
still defy clear definition.
This complexity doesn't just apply to anti-abortion terrorists - many
beliefs and psychological conditions are extraordinarily complicated.
People are just not consistently logical, nor are fictional characters in
stories making any attempt to capture believable human behavior.
Psychological Limitations are a nice shorthand device for describing the
personalities of characters, and for encouraging players to work out those
personalities. But ultimately a psych lim objection based in "that's not
what it says on your character sheet" is not as convincing to me as "That
doesn't seem like the sort of thing your character would do."
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:39:29 -0800
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On Sunday, February 22, 1998 4:23 PM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "F" == Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> writes:
>
>F> I agree with a good portion of what you're saying. The major
problem I
>F> have is when you said earlier that a 25 point CAK would include
>F> *everything* (humans, animals, ants, etc),
>
>Considering that a 20-point CAK applies only to people, according to
the
>BBB, a 25-point CAK would be a much larger group of things the
character
>will not kill.
Or finds himself facing situations where the best solution is a lethal
one. For example, a character who has no super powers and cannot
obtain exotic weapons, but who is hunted constantly by hunter/killer
teams of normal humans. Without firearms and a willingness to use
them, such a character would be at a very severe disadvantage, and
would face those situations at a Very Common level.
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Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:27:53 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: DC maxima
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I was just wondering about the guidelines for max Damage Class in a
campaign...the one in the BBB says 40-50 points are average, with 60 max.
Well, in just about every game I've been involved in, everybody spends 60
on each attack (at least). Thus, 12d6 EB, 8d6 Armor Piercing EB, etc, is
very common. Is this the same in your experience, and if so, why even
point out the 40-50 range?
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Area Effect HA
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 14:11:24 -0800 (PST)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Hello, I have a speedster who has an area effect shockwave.
She waves her hands real fast and sends out an explosive vibration.
I modeled it with HA, explosive.
Do I need to also get explosive on my strength?
And do I need personal immunity?
She also has an area effect line, selective HA defined as rapid
attacks to everyone in a line. DO I need to buy area effect on my strength
for this as well?
Would I be better off just buying these as EB's?
Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: "Warren E Henderson III" <warren@newenglandpc.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 98 22:15:33
Reply-To: "Warren E Henderson III" <warren@newenglandpc.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Vampires (was Mitch's Dilemma)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Tue, 24 Feb 1998 00:01:31 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>Or legends before him. Bram Stoker took all of Dracula's abilities
>from legends of the area surrounding Transylvania, Carpathia, and
>Walachia (sp?), which was Dracula's actual home.
>
>
I don't know much of the Vampire tie in with Vlad the Impaler, so I
will take you word for it. It would not surpise me if the Turks gave
Vlad the bad name, He was a hero to the people of the areas you
mentioned.
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 14:16:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: DC maxima
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
David Stallard writes:
> I was just wondering about the guidelines for max Damage Class in a
> campaign...the one in the BBB says 40-50 points are average, with 60 max.
> Well, in just about every game I've been involved in, everybody spends 60
> on each attack (at least). Thus, 12d6 EB, 8d6 Armor Piercing EB, etc, is
> very common. Is this the same in your experience, and if so, why even
> point out the 40-50 range?
>
No, my experience isn't the same, but then, most games I've been in didn't have
a hard limit on active points; instead, there are just restrictions put on
overall 'power level' -- which is a rather vague concept that is usually only
eyeballed by GMs, but basically relates to a combination of CV, speed, attacks,
and defenses. I wouldn't say that 40-50 is the actual average-- I've been in
games averaging as low as 40 and as high as 120-- but usually the average was
somewhere around 80% of the maximum.
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 14:26:25 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: DC maxima
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---David Stallard wrote:
>
> I was just wondering about the guidelines for max Damage Class in a
> campaign...the one in the BBB says 40-50 points are average, with 60
max.
> Well, in just about every game I've been involved in, everybody
spends 60
> on each attack (at least). Thus, 12d6 EB, 8d6 Armor Piercing EB,
etc, is
> very common. Is this the same in your experience, and if so, why even
> point out the 40-50 range?
You've just discovered why I dislike setting point maximums - when you
set a max, eventually every power used with any regularity is at the
max. I prefer (for my own campaigns) to simply state expected averages.
The BBB sets suggested points limits to give inexperienced GMs
assistance in setting campaign limits and inexperience players
assistance in creating characters, "the BBB says that 60 points is the
suggested limit, so if I give Strong Guy a STR of 60, he'll be right
up there with the strongest guys on the planet".
If, as a GM you feel that you are capable of maintaining game balance
on your own, then simply ignore the BBB's suggested limits (they are
after all merely suggestions).
Remember though, whatever point levels being thrown around by your
major badguys, will beome the point levels your players throw around..
-=>John D.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 14:28:33 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Area Effect HA
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
---Brian Wong wrote:
>
> Hello, I have a speedster who has an area effect shockwave.
> She waves her hands real fast and sends out an explosive vibration.
>
> I modeled it with HA, explosive.
>
> Do I need to also get explosive on my strength?
Not really, just remember that you don't get an extra die per 5 STR,
you get per 7.5 STR (or was Explosion a +1? If so than it's +1 die
per 10 STR)
> And do I need personal immunity?
Only if you don't wanna get knocked on you keister.
> She also has an area effect line, selective HA defined as
rapid
> attacks to everyone in a line. DO I need to buy area effect on my
strength
> for this as well?
>
> Would I be better off just buying these as EB's?
>
> Rook
> __
> /.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links
Page
> \(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role
Playing
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: "Warren E Henderson III" <warren@newenglandpc.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 98 22:32:25
Reply-To: "Warren E Henderson III" <warren@newenglandpc.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Vampires (was Mitch's Dilemma)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Tue, 24 Feb 1998 00:03:15 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>work. These two books are two of my favorite vampire novels, the best
>being "The Dracula Tapes", by Fred Saberhagen. It is the story of
>Dracula, told by Dracula himself. It is the same story as the original
>book, save that a) Dracula is not a monster, and b) his version makes
>more sense than the original.
>
>Filksinger
>
>"The crept through the blackest shadows, where only God and Dracula
>could see them."
>The Dracula Tapes, by Fred Saberhagen
I never read The Dracula Tapes, however I did read two of the later
books in the series were the Count had teamed up with his famous cousin
;)
Warren
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 14:33:36 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: DC maxima
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 04:27 PM 2/24/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>I was just wondering about the guidelines for max Damage Class in a
>campaign...the one in the BBB says 40-50 points are average, with 60 max.
>Well, in just about every game I've been involved in, everybody spends 60
>on each attack (at least). Thus, 12d6 EB, 8d6 Armor Piercing EB, etc, is
>very common. Is this the same in your experience, and if so, why even
>point out the 40-50 range?
Mostly I do find that beginning superhero characters have been starting
at the 12DC range. However, of late I've been enforcing a 10DC rule for
beginners, making sure everyone knows that they'll be able to increase
later on (and also allowing them to know that most of the villains will be
throwing around 12DC attacks).
Given that I also have the beginning PCs start at 3-5 DEX and 1 SPD
slower than most similar characters (a brick that would normally be 20 DEX
and 4 SPD actually starts out at 15 DEX and 3 SPD), this leads to a lot of
tension during combat, since the villains are all at least somewhat
experienced and have both higher CVs and higher DCs. Clearly a bit of
teamwork and creativity will be called upon for the PCs!
But to steer back to your question, I think 40-50 points is where
they're *supposed* to be, and where they're assumed to be for most
published beginning-level games. The PCs would probably be better off
backing off to that range and buying more in the way of background skills
and archetype tricks.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 14:45:02 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Area Effect HA
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 02:11 PM 2/24/98 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:
>Hello, I have a speedster who has an area effect shockwave.
>She waves her hands real fast and sends out an explosive vibration.
>
> I modeled it with HA, explosive.
>
>Do I need to also get explosive on my strength?
Unless you want the explosive to apply only to the damage of the HA.
Consider:
Smasher the Brick has STR 60. He buy 1d6 of HA for 3 points, and explosive
on HA to bring the cost up to 4 points. For 4 points, he now has a 13 dice
explosion? I don't think so...
>And do I need personal immunity?
>
Probably. I'd buy the power as a cone, though, so you don't need to.
> She also has an area effect line, selective HA defined as rapid
>attacks to everyone in a line. DO I need to buy area effect on my strength
>for this as well?
>
> Would I be better off just buying these as EB's?
>
Probably.
(For the line attack, buy a linked teleport to move you to the end of the
'line' after the attack fires...)
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:17:44 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: DC maxima
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> I was just wondering about the guidelines for max Damage Class in a
> campaign...the one in the BBB says 40-50 points are average, with 60 max.
> Well, in just about every game I've been involved in, everybody spends 60
> on each attack (at least). Thus, 12d6 EB, 8d6 Armor Piercing EB, etc, is
> very common. Is this the same in your experience, and if so, why even
> point out the 40-50 range?
I've noticed in campaigns I've played and run an average of 10-12
DC for ranged attacks and 10-16 DC for HTH attacks. For PCs and most
"normal-level" NPCs anyway. Things will max out at about 2-4 DC above
that.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:06:26 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Area Effect HA
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 02:11 PM 2/24/1998 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:
>Hello, I have a speedster who has an area effect shockwave.
>She waves her hands real fast and sends out an explosive vibration.
>
> I modeled it with HA, explosive.
>
>Do I need to also get explosive on my strength?
No. However, the STR only adds 1d6 per 7.5 STR added.
>And do I need personal immunity?
Yes (at least, in order to not be affected by it).
> She also has an area effect line, selective HA defined as rapid
>attacks to everyone in a line. DO I need to buy area effect on my strength
>for this as well?
No, though as above, STR adds on an Active Point basis.
> Would I be better off just buying these as EB's?
Probably so, for the sake of sanity if nothing else. (At least, under
4th Edition; for 5th Edition, who knows?)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: dalger@thyme.cisco.com
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:28:16 -0800
From: Douglas Alger <dalger@cisco.com>
Subject: Using Stretching as an attack
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
I had an interesting suggestion made by a fellow player concerning a new
hero I have created, and would like the opinion of whether GMs might allow
an unusual use of Stretching...
The character can warp space to ignore the intervening distance between
points, essentially creating wormholes. Her primary power is Stretching,
bought with the advantages indirect (simulating her ignoring the space
between herself and the end of her Stretching) and usable by other
(allowing a teammate to reach through such a portal as well).
The suggestion was to make her Stretching usable AGAINST other, to redirect
hand-to-hand attacks made by opponents. She would open a portal in front of
an attacking villain, causing his blow to land somewhere else, i.e. upon
one of his teammates...
Should this trick be treated like the Reflection power? Or is it just too
powerful?
Opinions welcome...
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X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:35:02 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Area Effect HA
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
>>Hello, I have a speedster who has an area effect shockwave.
>>She waves her hands real fast and sends out an explosive vibration.
>>
>> I modeled it with HA, explosive.
Without doing so I wouldnt let you have it for free on top of the HTA, but
its a matter of GM preference I think.
>>And do I need personal immunity?
I dont think so, but Im in the minority here. Call me kooky, but I dont
think you should get hurt by using your own powers directly, I know its
insane, but there you go.
----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 21:20:30 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: DC maxima
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> Mostly I do find that beginning superhero characters have been starting
> at the 12DC range. However, of late I've been enforcing a 10DC rule for
> beginners, making sure everyone knows that they'll be able to increase
> later on (and also allowing them to know that most of the villains will be
> throwing around 12DC attacks).
I've been encouraging a range for new characters, but as I
basically never assume that players, experienced or not, when starting a
new character are starting a novice character, I don't require lower
limits. I don't like forcing a role unless it is part of the campaign
conception.
> Given that I also have the beginning PCs start at 3-5 DEX and 1 SPD
> slower than most similar characters (a brick that would normally be 20 DEX
> and 4 SPD actually starts out at 15 DEX and 3 SPD), this leads to a lot of
> tension during combat, since the villains are all at least somewhat
> experienced and have both higher CVs and higher DCs. Clearly a bit of
> teamwork and creativity will be called upon for the PCs!
See, this just wouldn't work where I'm coming from. I've never
had a gaming group where everyone could show up, so I've always organized
campaigns with "loosely-afiliated" heroes. While they are usually part of
some organization or team, it is sort of a "whoever can make it to the
Supervillian Crime Scene" type of thing. Assuming teamwork is difficult
when different members of the team are around. That said, most characters
(PC) start at lower CV levels, in general, even when DCs are hovering
around the same level.
> But to steer back to your question, I think 40-50 points is where
> they're *supposed* to be, and where they're assumed to be for most
> published beginning-level games.
That "supposed" really should be viewed as your own opinion. I
happen to like the 50-60 (ranged) 50-80 (HTH) for effects on environment
and feel. It seems to work.
> The PCs would probably be better off
> backing off to that range and buying more in the way of background skills
> and archetype tricks.
There's still the matter of (I know I've said it before, but bear
with me) affecting the surroundings. I've found 40-50 to be too light for
such.
However, I've never had a problem handing out "Hero Bonuses" to
players who need more points to fit conception. Nor do I put a hard cap
on lims. 175 points of lims, no category limits is my general rule, but
I've had characters with over 200. (And quite in concept). The
characters tend to sit between 275 and 315 to start.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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Reply-To: <dflacks@ican.net>
From: "dflacks" <dflacks@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Mitch's Dilemma
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:26:53 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> From: Warren E Henderson III <warren@newenglandpc.net>
>
> On Fri, 20 Feb 1998 22:06:06 -0500 (EST), THE MAD HARLEQUIN wrote:
>
> > A certain paradigm must exist in order for the person to become a
> >'creature of the darkness.' It's not so much a physical transformation
as
> >it is a psychological one.
>
> There is a pretty good book called <cringe> "Those who stalk the
> night", maybe, at least I think thats right, by <grimace> Brian Lumley,
> or Humbly. I hate lending someone a book and then needing it for
> something :). This is the premise of Vamparism in the book.
>
> Warren
>
Are you thinking of "Those who hunt the night" by Barbara Hambly?
Daniel Flacks dflacks@ican.net
Give me ambiguity or give me something else
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 21:40:25 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Area Effect HA
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> > I modeled it with HA, explosive.
> >
> >Do I need to also get explosive on my strength?
>
> No. However, the STR only adds 1d6 per 7.5 STR added.
For balance sake, I've never allowed this. Otherwise it becomes
too cheap to buy a cheap MP filled with 1 or 2 die HAs with various
advantages. A cheap trick for getting around the "no raw advantages in a
MP" rule as well as being overall too effective.
I require either the STR to be bought with the advantage or an EB
with advantages to be purchased.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 21:42:57 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Using Stretching as an attack
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> The suggestion was to make her Stretching usable AGAINST other, to redirect
> hand-to-hand attacks made by opponents. She would open a portal in front of
> an attacking villain, causing his blow to land somewhere else, i.e. upon
> one of his teammates...
Nope. That's the range of other powers entirely. You are
redirecting an attack into some other chosen target. That's not the scope
of stretching.
> Should this trick be treated like the Reflection power? Or is it just too
> powerful?
Too powerful for what you propose. Try some sort of defense
against incomming HTH attacks and buy a Variable SFX EB, triggered by
attack with some appropriate lims.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 21:45:18 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Area Effect HA
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> >>And do I need personal immunity?
>
> I dont think so, but Im in the minority here. Call me kooky, but I dont
> think you should get hurt by using your own powers directly, I know its
> insane, but there you go.
And it may be a nice house rule, but there are disadvantages to
buying "no range" on a power. At the same time, the default effect for
almost any power with any sort of AE will allow it to affect its user if
said user doesn't take proper care with enough space between target and
himself.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: ghost@mail.TheRamp.net
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 21:46:29 -0600
From: Bryce Berggren <ghost@theramp.net>
Subject: [OFF] GenCon Help
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
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X-UID: 18
First, apologies for mailing this to the list, but I already tried to
contact Andon directly using their webpage, and ... the less said,
the better.
Does anybody still have a copy of GenCon registration info? Due to
circumstances beyond my control, I'm not going to be able to make
it this year, and I can't find a pre-reg form to learn how
soon the deadline is for refunds, or if it's already passed.
H. G.
He beats his fists against the posts
and still insists he sees the ghosts
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 20:05:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Daniel R Palacio <dandan@cats.ucsc.edu>
X-Sender: dandan@si.UCSC.EDU
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Area Effect HA
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On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Brian Wong wrote:
> Would I be better off just buying these as EB's?
I think so. I never liked HA. It was a power that was too easily
abused. What is the END cost on an HA anyway?
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 20:07:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Daniel R Palacio <dandan@cats.ucsc.edu>
X-Sender: dandan@si.UCSC.EDU
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Area Effect HA
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On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Lizard wrote:
> (For the line attack, buy a linked teleport to move you to the end of the
> 'line' after the attack fires...)
This is brilliant. I had never thought of that...
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 23:07:49 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Vampires (was Mitch's Dilemma)
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> >work. These two books are two of my favorite vampire novels, the best
> >being "The Dracula Tapes", by Fred Saberhagen. It is the story of
> >Dracula, told by Dracula himself. It is the same story as the original
> >book, save that a) Dracula is not a monster, and b) his version makes
> >more sense than the original.
> >
> >Filksinger
> >
> >"The crept through the blackest shadows, where only God and Dracula
> >could see them."
> >The Dracula Tapes, by Fred Saberhagen
>
> I never read The Dracula Tapes, however I did read two of the later
> books in the series were the Count had teamed up with his famous cousin
> ;)
I've read a few of the books and enjoyed them, as long as you take into
account that they are from the Count's point of view and by his own
admission, he doesn't always tell the truth.;^)
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Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:09:42 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Vampires (was Mitch's Dilemma)
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> >Or legends before him. Bram Stoker took all of Dracula's abilities
> >from legends of the area surrounding Transylvania, Carpathia, and
> >Walachia (sp?), which was Dracula's actual home.
> I don't know much of the Vampire tie in with Vlad the Impaler, so I
> will take you word for it. It would not surpise me if the Turks gave
> Vlad the bad name, He was a hero to the people of the areas you
> mentioned.
Yeah, I recently saw a special on The Learning Channel (or maybe
The History Channel) about Vlad. He's really sort of a national hero in
the area for his strong rule and actions against the Turks and other
enemies. However, much of the rest of Europe feared him and created
stories. The people of those areas really don't like Stoker all that much
for what he's done to the name of their history's hero.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 20:11:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Daniel R Palacio <dandan@cats.ucsc.edu>
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Subject: Re: DC maxima
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When I first saw the subject line, I was looking forward to a
writeup of the former Superman villain and Justice Leaguer. Thanks a lot!
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Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 23:14:58 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: DC maxima
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 09:20 PM 2/24/98 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> See, this just wouldn't work where I'm coming from. I've never
>had a gaming group where everyone could show up, so I've always organized
>campaigns with "loosely-afiliated" heroes. While they are usually part of
>some organization or team, it is sort of a "whoever can make it to the
>Supervillian Crime Scene" type of thing. Assuming teamwork is difficult
>when different members of the team are around. That said, most characters
>(PC) start at lower CV levels, in general, even when DCs are hovering
>around the same level.
The last time I was in such a game (in college). Everyone (PCs) made up
two different characters, in some cases they didn't even like each other.
This way if the team was missing an essential character type, and it made
sense gamewise, the player would play that character, instead of their
"normal" character.
Joe
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Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 23:20:25 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Vampires (was Mitch's Dilemma)
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On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> Yeah, I recently saw a special on The Learning Channel (or maybe
> The History Channel) about Vlad. He's really sort of a national hero in
> the area for his strong rule and actions against the Turks and other
> enemies. However, much of the rest of Europe feared him and created
> stories. The people of those areas really don't like Stoker all that much
> for what he's done to the name of their history's hero.
Yes, but this a reason he was called 'The Impaler'. Vlad was an amazingly
ruthless fellow, even by the standards of his time, and showed his enemies
*no* mercy. There are stories of him executing large numbers of Turks
via impalement, including one where he feasted in a field of men dying in
such a manner.
***************************************************************************
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* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
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From: "Chris Lea" <cdlea@hotmail.com>
Subject: [HERO] Re: Area Effect HA
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 21:41:50 PST
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>From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
>
>Hello, I have a speedster who has an area effect shockwave.
>She waves her hands real fast and sends out an explosive
>vibration.
>
> I modeled it with HA, explosive.
>
>Do I need to also get explosive on my strength?
>And do I need personal immunity?
Since, you're not actually striking anyone, I think
that an EB would be much more appropriate. You only
need Personal Immunity if you don't wanna get hurt when
you do this.
> She also has an area effect line, selective HA
> defined as rapid attacks to everyone in a line. DO I
> need to buy area effect on my strength for this as well?
I'd suggest about +10 OCV with Move Bys, only to offset
penalties.
Chris
______________________________________________________
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Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 21:42:11 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: [Fwd: Re: Area Effect HA]
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> At 02:11 PM 2/24/1998 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:
> >Hello, I have a speedster who has an area effect shockwave.
> >She waves her hands real fast and sends out an explosive vibration.
> >
> > I modeled it with HA, explosive.
> >
> >Do I need to also get explosive on my strength?
>
> No. However, the STR only adds 1d6 per 7.5 STR added.
To repeat a question that I know I have asked before, but to which I have
never gotten an answer: WHERE IS THIS RULE? I can't find it anywhere,
even though I and everyone I know uses it.
I would also caveat that the advantage should not apply to more STR than
would double the DC of the attack. This is, IMHO, necessary to prevent
abuse, especially for martial artists.
>
> > She also has an area effect line, selective HA defined as pid
> >attacks to everyone in a line. DO I need to buy area effect on m strength
> >for this as well?
>
> No, though as above, STR adds on an Active Point basis.
>
> > Would I be better off just buying these as EB's?
>
> Probably so, for the sake of sanity if nothing else. (At least, under
> 4th Edition; for 5th Edition, who knows?)
The explosion I would consider an EB, almost by definition. The Line
attack is similar to an autofire HA, and I would point it in the way
described.
--
> <------------------------------------------------------->
> Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
> Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
> http://www.erols.com/robtwest
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
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X-Sender: h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 16:54:31 +1100
From: Mad Hamish <h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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At 06:12 PM 2/18/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
>
>BG> Hey, if nothing else, it could make for some rather interesting
>BG> character role-playing, eh?
>
>One word, a single name: Cyclops.
>
>If he does not have a "lethal" blast behind those shades I don't know who
>does.
Care to say exactly _how_many_ things Cyclops' eye beams have ever killed?
****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************
Mad Hamish
Hamish Laws
h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au
h_laws@tassie.net.au
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:34:46 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Using Stretching as an attack
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At 05:28 PM 2/24/1998 -0800, Douglas Alger wrote:
>
>I had an interesting suggestion made by a fellow player concerning a new
>hero I have created, and would like the opinion of whether GMs might allow
>an unusual use of Stretching...
>
>The character can warp space to ignore the intervening distance between
>points, essentially creating wormholes. Her primary power is Stretching,
>bought with the advantages indirect (simulating her ignoring the space
>between herself and the end of her Stretching) and usable by other
>(allowing a teammate to reach through such a portal as well).
>
>The suggestion was to make her Stretching usable AGAINST other, to redirect
>hand-to-hand attacks made by opponents. She would open a portal in front of
>an attacking villain, causing his blow to land somewhere else, i.e. upon
>one of his teammates...
>
>Should this trick be treated like the Reflection power? Or is it just too
>powerful?
>
>Opinions welcome...
This one is hard to call. Mechanically, such a thing should be treated
like Reflection At Range, though Missile Deflection/Reflection is designed
for use against ranged attacks, and doesn't really work against
hand-to-hand attacks. Therefore I'd use this Power, and allow it to work
in this fashion, as though being used to Block at range.
I'd probably also insist that the Power be bought with a -1/4 Limitation
that the total distance from the character to the target whose attack is
being Reflected be no longer than the Stretching, nor the total distance
from the character to the target to whom the attack is being Reflected to.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 00:52:30 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Vampires (was Mitch's Dilemma)
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> Yes, but this a reason he was called 'The Impaler'. Vlad was an amazingly
> ruthless fellow, even by the standards of his time, and showed his enemies
> *no* mercy. There are stories of him executing large numbers of Turks
> via impalement, including one where he feasted in a field of men dying in
> such a manner.
Oh, sure. But he is a hero in his regions because of that. He
didn't take it from nobody. He was enough to hold back the Turks. He
also was really good at removing corruption from his government and
criminals from his streets. He was ruthless, sure. But his people, and
their decendants, see him as a hero. They _really_ don't like what Stoker
has done to their legend.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 00:54:50 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: DC maxima
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> The last time I was in such a game (in college). Everyone (PCs) made up
Still in college, will be for 5-6 more years, but anyway . . .
> two different characters, in some cases they didn't even like each other.
> This way if the team was missing an essential character type, and it made
> sense gamewise, the player would play that character, instead of their
> "normal" character.
I don't really like this one. The comics are full of partial
groupings of teams that are short in some areas, heavy in others. If
only EPs show up, then only EPs are able to respond to this crisis. I'll
adjust the villians accordingly.
I personally, and many gamers I know, like to stick with a
character for a while for development and a sense of continuity.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 03:16:05 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
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Subject: Re: Vampires (was Mitch's Dilemma)
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>
> Oh, sure. But he is a hero in his regions because of that. He
> didn't take it from nobody. He was enough to hold back the Turks. He
> also was really good at removing corruption from his government and
> criminals from his streets. He was ruthless, sure. But his people, and
> their decendants, see him as a hero. They _really_ don't like what Stoker
> has done to their legend.
I think that is overstating it a bit. Saberhagen's account idealized
Dracula quite a bit. Yes, he was ruthless and campaigned against the
Turks. He was respected but also feared, and overthrown twice before
being killed by one of his own men.
Tepes came from his penchant for impaling as punishment, not just Turks
but anyone. His father was a member of the Order of the Dragon and used
the name Dracul (Dragon or Devil). Vlad Tapes added the diminutive -a for
Dracula. After his use of torture became more known it was mostly used to
mean Son of the Devil.
On the plus side he sponsored many monestaries, one of which he was buried
at and when he was ruling (a total of less than 8 years in all three
reigns) he was fiercely protective of his land.
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net>
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:37:25 +0000
Subject: Re: DC maxima
Priority: normal
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> Would you mind posting this scale to the list, or to me via email?
> It seems like this scale would only compound the problem of a
> martial artist being completely ineffectual against a brick...the MA
> (with a high CV) would have low attacks that couldn't possibly get
> through a brick's high defense.
It does mean it takes longer for some martial artists to get thru a
Brick's defenses with a normal attack. My martial artist, however,
has a truely vicious killing attack. And she doesn't take much
damage because she doesn't get hit much. So there are trade offs.
In a nutshell, the scale goes like this:
Title Ave CV Max DEF Max Attack (AP)
Super High 13 25 45/9 DC
Very High 12 25 50/10 DC
Really High 11 27 50/10 DC
High 10 27 55/11 DC
Med High 9 30 55/11 DC
Medium 8 30 60/12 DC
Med Low 7 33 60/12 DC
Low 6 33 65/13 DC
Really Low 5 35 65/13 DC
As you noted, it does make it harder for a martial artist to do tons
of damage to a brick--which is how I think it should be. That's why
they're called BRICKS. They (to use a MUDing phrase) Tank for the
rest of the group, soaking up all the damage while the nimbler
members of the team do other things. To get the benefit of the extra
DEF/DC you have to take a really low CV, which means you're less
likely to hit, and more likely to get hit. My martial artist has a
much better chance of whittling down a big brick, than that brick
does of taking her out with one punch (tho it can and has happened).
The real problem of this scale (which was created by another GM for
a supers game I took over and now run) is that it doesn't encourage a
lot of diversity among the characters. Oh there's diversity in
special effect, but everyone's pretty much got the same defenses and
attacks, which prolongs combat. David tried to counter this by
allowing for a "signature power", with up to 2 more damage classes
worth of effect. It has helped some, tho the system could use more
work. Still, it does set limits, which is good--everyone knows
they're on level ground with eveyrone else.
Amy
----------------
Theala Sildorian
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Using Stretching as an attack
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 06:40:41 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> The character can warp space to ignore the intervening distance between
> points, essentially creating wormholes. Her primary power is Stretching,
> bought with the advantages indirect (simulating her ignoring the space
> between herself and the end of her Stretching) and usable by other
> (allowing a teammate to reach through such a portal as well).
>
> The suggestion was to make her Stretching usable AGAINST other, to redirect
> hand-to-hand attacks made by opponents. She would open a portal in front of
> an attacking villain, causing his blow to land somewhere else, i.e. upon
> one of his teammates...
>
> Should this trick be treated like the Reflection power? Or is it just too
> powerful?
>
This is a classic example of reflection.
However reflection is listed as 'missile reflection', and won't reflect a
non missile attack.
The stretching usable against others INMHO would not be
so 'directable' as to allow targeting. I would see it more
as an ability to make their body go haywire.
This is something not handled in Hero from I can think of off hand.
It would require a house rule or the use of the proposed 'advantaged' advantage
to allow reflection to be used on non missile attacks.
Rook
__
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\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: [Hero] AreaEffect HA
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 06:50:47 -0800 (PST)
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> First off you need not buy the area effect line as it is stated in the
> multiple move by rules in the book.
Oh? Perhaps I could just use those points to get skill levels with
one manuever then. I'll have to look that up.
However I believe move by does damage to the user as well. And this
is simply the reflection of her ability to move around at light speed within
a confined region, so that she can do multiple punches, kicks, etc with ease.
> For the explosive ability I do not
> suggest you buy an explosion on her strength if that is the way you are
> intending it, its going to be only around 4d6 or such which really doesn't
> even hurt normals(depending on power level of the game) I suggest that she
> buy's it initially an 6d6 or 8d6 explosion with the limitations (No
> Range(-1/2),4 charges (-1), cost end(-1/2), x2 end(-1/2) so in reality she
I'd do all but the charges. It's a trivial thing for her to do, so
it shouldn't be limited in uses per day. I can take the dice reduction instead.
Besides, without some major revisions, I have to fit these into a 45
point multipower (HA is cheap) or up the points on the character dramaticaly.
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 07:00:17 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: Area Effect HA]
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At 09:42 PM 2/24/1998 -0800, Robert A. West wrote:
>Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>
>> At 02:11 PM 2/24/1998 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:
>> >Hello, I have a speedster who has an area effect shockwave.
>> >She waves her hands real fast and sends out an explosive vibration.
>> >
>> > I modeled it with HA, explosive.
>> >
>> >Do I need to also get explosive on my strength?
>>
>> No. However, the STR only adds 1d6 per 7.5 STR added.
>
>To repeat a question that I know I have asked before, but to which I have
>never gotten an answer: WHERE IS THIS RULE? I can't find it anywhere,
>even though I and everyone I know uses it.
Hm, I may need to fire up the barbecue and pull some crow out of the
freezer, because I've just looked through the BBB and TUMA and couldn't
find that. It may be a 3rd Edition rule that didn't carry forward. In
fact, TUMA says on page 156 that you can add STR up to the base points in
HA, and let that value add only base dice with the Explosion (or other
Advantage, except Invisible Power Effects) for free.
>I would also caveat that the advantage should not apply to more STR than
>would double the DC of the attack. This is, IMHO, necessary to prevent
>abuse, especially for martial artists.
I would tend to agree here.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 07:04:23 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Area Effect HA
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At 09:40 PM 2/24/1998 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> > I modeled it with HA, explosive.
>> >
>> >Do I need to also get explosive on my strength?
>>
>> No. However, the STR only adds 1d6 per 7.5 STR added.
>
> For balance sake, I've never allowed this. Otherwise it becomes
>too cheap to buy a cheap MP filled with 1 or 2 die HAs with various
>advantages. A cheap trick for getting around the "no raw advantages in a
>MP" rule as well as being overall too effective.
>
> I require either the STR to be bought with the advantage or an EB
>with advantages to be purchased.
Though it's never been written this way, I've always played that a HA
with an Advantage (other than Reduced END or Difficult to Dispel) cannot be
more than doubled by STR. I think that should help avoid much of your
aforementioned Multipower abuse problem.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Using Stretching as an attack
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:05:36 -0500 (EST)
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> At 05:28 PM 2/24/1998 -0800, Douglas Alger wrote:
> >I had an interesting suggestion made by a fellow player concerning a new
> >hero I have created, and would like the opinion of whether GMs might allow
> >an unusual use of Stretching...
> >
> >The character can warp space to ignore the intervening distance between
> >points, essentially creating wormholes. Her primary power is Stretching,
> >bought with the advantages indirect (simulating her ignoring the space
> >between herself and the end of her Stretching) and usable by other
> >(allowing a teammate to reach through such a portal as well).
> >
> >The suggestion was to make her Stretching usable AGAINST other, to redirect
> >hand-to-hand attacks made by opponents. She would open a portal in front of
> >an attacking villain, causing his blow to land somewhere else, i.e. upon
> >one of his teammates...
> >
> >Should this trick be treated like the Reflection power? Or is it just too
> >powerful?
>
> This one is hard to call. Mechanically, such a thing should be treated
> like Reflection At Range, though Missile Deflection/Reflection is designed
> for use against ranged attacks, and doesn't really work against
> hand-to-hand attacks. Therefore I'd use this Power, and allow it to work
> in this fashion, as though being used to Block at range.
> I'd probably also insist that the Power be bought with a -1/4 Limitation
> that the total distance from the character to the target whose attack is
> being Reflected be no longer than the Stretching, nor the total distance
> from the character to the target to whom the attack is being Reflected to.
You might even want to put Indirect on this. Just because it is so
powerful.
Joe
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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: DC maxima
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:10:37 -0500 (EST)
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> > The last time I was in such a game (in college). Everyone (PCs) made up
> Still in college, will be for 5-6 more years, but anyway . . .
Was 5-6 years ago for me.
> > two different characters, in some cases they didn't even like each other.
> > This way if the team was missing an essential character type, and it made
> > sense gamewise, the player would play that character, instead of their
> > "normal" character.
>
> I don't really like this one. The comics are full of partial
> groupings of teams that are short in some areas, heavy in others. If
> only EPs show up, then only EPs are able to respond to this crisis. I'll
> adjust the villians accordingly.
Yes, but we would have games where, continuity-wise, my primary character
is in Africa, and everyone else's main characters are in New York. Rather
than retcon my character back to NY, I would just use my alternate
character.
> I personally, and many gamers I know, like to stick with a
> character for a while for development and a sense of continuity.
The main group was only 4 people most of the time we played. It got a
little boring once everyone was in a groove. It was fun playing a new
character against the established characters occasionally. In some cases,
this improved the development of the main characters a lot.
Joe
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 07:14:38 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: DC maxima
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At 09:20 PM 2/24/1998 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> Mostly I do find that beginning superhero characters have been starting
>> at the 12DC range. However, of late I've been enforcing a 10DC rule for
>> beginners, making sure everyone knows that they'll be able to increase
>> later on (and also allowing them to know that most of the villains will be
>> throwing around 12DC attacks).
>
> I've been encouraging a range for new characters, but as I
>basically never assume that players, experienced or not, when starting a
>new character are starting a novice character, I don't require lower
>limits. I don't like forcing a role unless it is part of the campaign
>conception.
"Encouraging" is probably a better word for what I do. I just say that
a certain point is where I want to see PCs, and I have yet to see any
arguments.
>> Given that I also have the beginning PCs start at 3-5 DEX and 1 SPD
>> slower than most similar characters (a brick that would normally be 20 DEX
>> and 4 SPD actually starts out at 15 DEX and 3 SPD), this leads to a lot of
>> tension during combat, since the villains are all at least somewhat
>> experienced and have both higher CVs and higher DCs. Clearly a bit of
>> teamwork and creativity will be called upon for the PCs!
>
> See, this just wouldn't work where I'm coming from. I've never
>had a gaming group where everyone could show up, so I've always organized
>campaigns with "loosely-afiliated" heroes. While they are usually part of
>some organization or team, it is sort of a "whoever can make it to the
>Supervillian Crime Scene" type of thing. Assuming teamwork is difficult
>when different members of the team are around. That said, most characters
>(PC) start at lower CV levels, in general, even when DCs are hovering
>around the same level.
I don't see where the flexibility of the team makeup should make much
difference in whether the team uses teamwork. A Brick can still throw an
opponent at a Martial Artist, who catches and does a Martial Throw on said
opponent. Two Energy Projectors can still focus their blasts on the same
target. An Energy Projector can still Flash an opponent just before a
Brick's Haymaker lands. And anyone can still come to the aid of an ally
who's having trouble.
>> But to steer back to your question, I think 40-50 points is where
>> they're *supposed* to be, and where they're assumed to be for most
>> published beginning-level games.
>
> That "supposed" really should be viewed as your own opinion. I
>happen to like the 50-60 (ranged) 50-80 (HTH) for effects on environment
>and feel. It seems to work.
It's not my opinion so much as it's my interpretation. You can like the
50-60 ranged and 50-80 HTH feel if you want to. I don't think that's a bad
thing at all, and that level really is quite enjoyable. Me, I like the
50-60 range for most attacks, with "desperation attacks" of 14-20 dice
(depending on what kind of restrictions and Limitations are attached). I'm
just saying that 40-50 to start is what the Hero Guys apparently intended.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Using Stretching as an attack
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:14:41 -0500 (EST)
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> This is something not handled in Hero from I can think of off hand.
> It would require a house rule or the use of the proposed 'advantaged' advantage
> to allow reflection to be used on non missile attacks.
Please don't start that again. Why not just propose a change to MD which
would allow MR to work against non-missile attacks? Say, +1/2?
Joe
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From: Rog <uraeus@mail3.bunt.com>
Subject: RE: Vampires (was Mitch's Dilemma)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 16:48:12 +0100
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Vlad also had a penchant to impale _anyone_ he considered undesirable
(thieves, beggars, vagrants, foreigners, unwed pregnant women, etc)
So while he did reduce crime in his domain, I'm sure he wasn't worshiped
nearly as much as he was thoroughly feared by his people and the rest of
Europe and the Near East.
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:01:56 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Using Stretching as an attack
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> > This is something not handled in Hero from I can think of off hand.
> > It would require a house rule or the use of the proposed 'advantaged' advantage
> > to allow reflection to be used on non missile attacks.
>
> Please don't start that again. Why not just propose a change to MD which
> would allow MR to work against non-missile attacks? Say, +1/2?
Don't start? But you just continued. Making a new advantage is
utilizing an "Advantaged" advantage by nature.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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Subject: RE: Vampires (was Mitch's Dilemma)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:39:00 -0500
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From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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>Vlad also had a penchant to impale _anyone_ he considered undesirable
>(thieves, beggars, vagrants, foreigners, unwed pregnant women, etc)
>
>So while he did reduce crime in his domain, I'm sure he wasn't worshiped
>nearly as much as he was thoroughly feared by his people and the rest of
>Europe and the Near East.
I recall a (supposedly) true story about Vlad...
As Vlad walked in the city he saw a man with a torn shirt, he ordered his
guards to bring the man to him. He forced the man to tell him his name
and where he lived. More guards were dispatched to get his wife. Vlad
told the wife that she was unfit to serve the man, and had her killed as
the man watched and screamed in protest. Another young woman was brought
forward. Vlad told him that this was the man's new wife. The newlywed's
were then dismissed from Vlad's presence.
That is one bizarre individual.
David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:45:33 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: Area Effect HA]
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On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, John Desmarais wrote:
> > > No. However, the STR only adds 1d6 per 7.5 STR added.
> > To repeat a question that I know I have asked before, but to which I
> have
> > never gotten an answer: WHERE IS THIS RULE? I can't find it anywhere,
> > even though I and everyone I know uses it.
It's in the UMA, explicitly, on page 159. Here's the relevant text
(warning: some of the text is 8-bit, and I'm too lazy to replace it):
By the way, since official errata nukes the 3 AP HA, replacing it with the
5 AP/3.33 real STR -1/2, most of this is moot.
Power Advantages And Hand-To-Hand Attacks
-----------------------------------------
An Advantage added to an HA does not apply to
the character’s STR damage as well, unless the Active
Points in the HA dice (before Advantages are added)
are equal to or greater than the character’s STR. To
put it another way, a character does not have to buy
an Advantage for his STR as long as he only uses STR
up to the unmodified Active Point cost of the HA.
For example, let’s say a character has STR 15. He
wants to buy a +4d6 HA, for a total of 7d6 damage. He
buys the following:
Example: +4d6 HA, 0 END (+½), Armor Piercing
(+½). Total cost: 24 points.
This will give him a 6d6 Armor Piercing normal
attack.
You might be asking yourself, why doesn’t it give
him 7d6? STR 15 is 3d6, plus 4d6 from the HA equals
7d6, right? Well, that’s wrong—in this case.
A +4d6 HA is 12 points’ worth of power (not
counting the “Armor Piercing” Advantage). There-fore,
the character, since he has not bought Armor
Piercing for his STR, can only add STR 12 to it—for
+2d6. Thus, it’s a 6d6 attack. If he were to buy Armor-Piercing
for his STR, he could have his full 7d6. Or, if
he bought a +5d6 HA, which has 15 Active Points, he
could use his full STR and have an 8d6 HA, Armor
Piercing, without paying to buy the “Armor Pierc-ing”
Advantage for his STR, since the Active Points in
HA are equal to his points of STR.
There is one exception to this rule: the “Invisible
Power Effects” Advantage. The character must buy
this Advantage not only for his HA, but for any STR
he wants to add to it, regardless of the Active Point
totals involved.
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:07:08 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: Area Effect HA]
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---"Robert A. West" wrote:
>
> Bob Greenwade wrote:
> >
> > At 02:11 PM 2/24/1998 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:
> > >Hello, I have a speedster who has an area effect shockwave.
> > >She waves her hands real fast and sends out an explosive vibration.
> > >
> > > I modeled it with HA, explosive.
> > >
> > >Do I need to also get explosive on my strength?
> >
> > No. However, the STR only adds 1d6 per 7.5 STR added.
>
> To repeat a question that I know I have asked before, but to which I
have
> never gotten an answer: WHERE IS THIS RULE? I can't find it anywhere,
> even though I and everyone I know uses it.
It's an extraoplation for the rules regarding weapons in non-superhero
Hero games wherein the weapons are built with advantages of this nature.
As far as I know, it isn;t explicity stated anywhere in the BBB
(although you may find it in the description of HKA - I'm not sure, I
don;t have a book handy).
> I would also caveat that the advantage should not apply to more STR
than
> would double the DC of the attack. This is, IMHO, necessary to
prevent
> abuse, especially for martial artists.
If one is extraploting from the weapon rules, this is a given.
-=>John D.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 12:33:57 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Aid in a Multipower
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When you Aid yourself above your starting value somewhere, and that Aid
was in a multipower, and then you shift to another slot in your
multipower, what happens? (see UMA p.162).
What do you use in your campaigns, and are most people aware of the UMA
rule? What do people think of the rule?
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:20:53 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Aid in a Multipower
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On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, John Desmarais wrote:
> ---Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:
> >
> > When you Aid yourself above your starting value somewhere, and that
> Aid
> > was in a multipower, and then you shift to another slot in your
> > multipower, what happens? (see UMA p.162).
> >
> > What do you use in your campaigns, and are most people aware of the
> UMA
> > rule? What do people think of the rule?
>
> I've never read it. If it says the aided points go away then the
> writer was a moron. Aid is an Instant effect, not a Constant effect.
> You fire it off, it happens - the fade rate is defined with the power.
It does indeed say that. On the other hand, play balance is an issue,
isn't it? I have a character who has a STR and SPD aid in a multipower who
gives me fits. Before I showed the rule to him I wanted to get feedback on
its usage and acceptance in the general HERO community.
Oh, BTW, the page # is 163, not 162. Oh, what the heck. Here it is:
(UMA p 163)
Aid, Multipowers And Switching Slots
------------------------------------
If a character is receiving a characteristic bonus
from an Aid power in a Multipower, and the user of
the Multipower changes Multipower slots, the Aid
recipient loses his bonus.
Example: Master Toshio has drawn on his ch'i to
increase his Strength in combat. He's downed his
foe, but he's tired and another enemy is mere
Phases from reaching him. Toshio drops the STR
Aid and switches to a REC Aid so that he'll recover
faster. His extra STR goes away as soon as he
changes slots.
However, Aided Characteristics do not fall below
their starting values, even if the Multipower is
switched.
Example: Master Toshio has been hit with a will-
power-deadening drug. He summons up his ch'i to
overcome its effects. His EGO has been drained
from 18 to 13. He uses his Aid EGO slot, and rolls
14 Character Points, or 7 EGO, which shoots his
EGO up to 20. Moments later, he has to switch back
to his STR Aid. The bonus EGO "goes away," but
he's left with his original EGO of 18, not his reduced
EGO of 13.
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:23:49 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Champions PBeM?
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I've been scouring the web trying to find a Champions PBeM to join... I've
found plenty that look great, but every single one of them is closed to new
players. I'm assuming that the only way I could get in would be to lurk
for some time and hope that the GM picks me to fill a vacancy that might
come up. Does anybody know of a Champions PBeM that is in need of another
player?
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: DC maxima
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:40:33 -0800 (PST)
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> >> Mostly I do find that beginning superhero characters have been starting
> >> at the 12DC range. However, of late I've been enforcing a 10DC rule for
> >> beginners, making sure everyone knows that they'll be able to increase
> >> later on (and also allowing them to know that most of the villains will be
> >> throwing around 12DC attacks).
> >
> > I've been encouraging a range for new characters, but as I
> >basically never assume that players, experienced or not, when starting a
> >new character are starting a novice character, I don't require lower
> >limits. I don't like forcing a role unless it is part of the campaign
> >conception.
>
> "Encouraging" is probably a better word for what I do. I just say that
> a certain point is where I want to see PCs, and I have yet to see any
> arguments.
Myself, I never set any maximums of minimums. I only set an average,
tell my players I expect a lot out of them, and that I will ask for a revision
or a new character if I don't like what I get handed.
The actual averages I ask for are:
# 10 DC
# 6 Speed
# 8 CV
# 20 PD/ED
I do have extensive guidlines on character creation. But most of
what I talk about has nothing to do with game mechanics. You can find the bulk
of it on my website at http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/camprule.html .
Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing
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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Using Stretching as an attack
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:41:43 -0500 (EST)
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> > > This is something not handled in Hero from I can think of off hand.
> > > It would require a house rule or the use of the proposed 'advantaged' advantage
> > > to allow reflection to be used on non missile attacks.
> >
> > Please don't start that again. Why not just propose a change to MD which
> > would allow MR to work against non-missile attacks? Say, +1/2?
>
> Don't start? But you just continued. Making a new advantage is
> utilizing an "Advantaged" advantage by nature.
No, I was proposing a change to Missile Deflection. Symantically
different than using the theorized "Advantaged Power" advantage. (Of
course, in reality, the two are the same. I just didn't want a discussion
of "Advantaged." This list constantly contains posts which assume
"Advantaged" exists.)
Anyway, what did you think of the proposed value: +1/2?
Joe
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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Date: 25 Feb 1998 14:52:46 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "MH" == Mad Hamish <h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au> writes:
MH> Care to say exactly _how_many_ things Cyclops' eye beams have ever
MH> killed?
Not many, but that is irrelevant. What is relevant is that his eye beams
are lethal to most people.
A 12D6 EB is "lethal" if directed at a child.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin.
\
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 98 19:54:47
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)
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On Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:01:10 -0500, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>At 09:12 PM 2/23/98, qts wrote:
>>On Sun, 22 Feb 1998 14:36:39 -0500, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>>
>>>At 09:45 AM 2/22/98, qts wrote:
>>><even bigger snip>
>>>>I do see what you're getting at; I just don't agree with it. Look at
>>>>the arrow-cutting graphic on p 81 - those arrows are going in random
>>>>directions - at least two in the picture could go and hit others.
>>>>
>>>>Anyway, if we assume that Missile Deflection is the correct mechanic
>>>>for all the effects we've discussed, I would suggest we need an
>>>>advantage for attacks going *nowhere*. Since basic Reflection is +20
>>>>pts, +10 pts seems quite reasonable to me.
>>>
>>>Going nowhere on a Deflected attack could be the exact opposite effect the
>>>character wants just as often as it could be good for the character.
>>
>>As a combat effect, it is very powerful.
>
>No, it isn't. As I said: It is equally powerful to have the effect not
>disappear. If I'm surrounded by orcs and someone throws a dagger at me. I
>can rely on the fact that, in your world, the dagger will hit one of the
>orcs if I deflect it. If I had defined my magic deflection as "goes
>nowhere", there wouldn't be one less orc to whump me.
Not necessarily: it might go skywards over their heads; it *might* hit
an orc - use a scatter chart.
>>>Do we also need to make an advantage for knockback: Can Hit Other
>Combatants?
>>>No, we don't because that is SFX. Just like Deflection has a SFX. When you
>>>run knockback in a game, if the character is knocked into someone else, do
>>>you apply the KB damage to both people?
>>
>>I've never used knockback - I GM Fantasy Hero.
>
>So I guess you don't do Hercules/Xena FH? :-) That would be a fun source
>book.
Hercules appears in Mythic Greece. As for Xena, I don't have a TV.
>>>Remember, an advantage which is not an advantage has no cost. I don't feel
>>>deflected nowhere is worth 10 points of STR or 3 points of DEX or anything
>>>else you can spend 10 points on.
>>
>>OK, it's your game, but how else do you prevent innocents getting
>>accidently hurt?
>
>You declare that you are deflecting and the choose to fail the attack roll.
Eh? Who said you get the opportunity to choose? IMC it was a straight 0
OCV attack.
> The dagger automatically hits you instead. That's the problem of the
>person with the deflection. Since he did not take, goes nowhere, he has to
>worry about that. But really, how often are there innocents in a battle?
>It is not worth 10 points. It is not worth 5 points.
I think it should cost.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 98 19:59:27
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Using Stretching as an attack
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On Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:28:16 -0800, Douglas Alger wrote:
>
>I had an interesting suggestion made by a fellow player concerning a new
>hero I have created, and would like the opinion of whether GMs might allow
>an unusual use of Stretching...
>
>The character can warp space to ignore the intervening distance between
>points, essentially creating wormholes. Her primary power is Stretching,
>bought with the advantages indirect (simulating her ignoring the space
>between herself and the end of her Stretching) and usable by other
>(allowing a teammate to reach through such a portal as well).
Stretching is automatically Indirect to a certain extent. I'd suggest
putting Indirect on the attacks themselves.
>The suggestion was to make her Stretching usable AGAINST other, to redirect
>hand-to-hand attacks made by opponents. She would open a portal in front of
>an attacking villain, causing his blow to land somewhere else, i.e. upon
>one of his teammates...
If it were Ranged, it would be Missile Reflection, but for HTH, I don't
know.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 98 20:03:45
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: Area Effect HA]
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On Tue, 24 Feb 1998 21:42:11 -0800, Robert A. West wrote:
>Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>
>> At 02:11 PM 2/24/1998 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:
>> >Hello, I have a speedster who has an area effect shockwave.
>> >She waves her hands real fast and sends out an explosive vibration.
>> >
>> > I modeled it with HA, explosive.
>> >
>> >Do I need to also get explosive on my strength?
>>
>> No. However, the STR only adds 1d6 per 7.5 STR added.
>
>To repeat a question that I know I have asked before, but to which I have
>never gotten an answer: WHERE IS THIS RULE? I can't find it anywhere,
>even though I and everyone I know uses it.
It's in the rules for weapons in Heroic games.
qts
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 12:29:33 -0800
From: Douglas Alger <dalger@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Using Stretching as an attack
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Thanks for everyone who took the time to offer their input! I was
pleasantly surprised that most people were inclined to allow the ability,
but suggested alternative methods to purchase it.
I've proposed it to the 2 co-GMs in my gaming group via e-mail (along with
a summary of everyone's posted comments), and should hear what they have to
say quite soon.
- Doug
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:36:48 -0500 (EST)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Champions PBeM?
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>I've been scouring the web trying to find a Champions PBeM to join... I've
>found plenty that look great, but every single one of them is closed to new
>players. I'm assuming that the only way I could get in would be to lurk
>for some time and hope that the GM picks me to fill a vacancy that might
>come up. Does anybody know of a Champions PBeM that is in need of another
>player?
Why don'cha bite the bullet and start one yourself? (for the record, I am
running a PBeM myself for that very reason). PBeM have vacancies for all of
15 seconds after their inception, or so it seems.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 16:08:28 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: DC maxima
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade
> But to steer back to your question, I think 40-50 points is where
they're *supposed* to be, and where they're assumed to be for most
published beginning-level games. The PCs would probably be better off
backing off to that range and buying more in the way of background skills
and archetype tricks.<
I'm assuming you meant beginning-level adventures. I don't think I've ever
seen a Champions adventure that specified what level of character it was
intended for, but then I haven't been buying nearly as many Champs books in
the last year or two since my group has been exploring some other
RPGs...have they started doing this, or are there some adventures that have
more powerful villains than usual?
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:21:58 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: Area Effect HA]
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At 10:45 AM 2/25/1998 -0600, Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:
>On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, John Desmarais wrote:
>
>> > > No. However, the STR only adds 1d6 per 7.5 STR added.
>> > To repeat a question that I know I have asked before, but to which I
>> have
>> > never gotten an answer: WHERE IS THIS RULE? I can't find it anywhere,
>> > even though I and everyone I know uses it.
>
>It's in the UMA, explicitly, on page 159. Here's the relevant text
>(warning: some of the text is 8-bit, and I'm too lazy to replace it):
OK, the crow goes back into the freezer. (I'm keeping the barbecue
handy so I can do up some turkey in the likely case that Rat gripes about
Ultimate books again.)
>By the way, since official errata nukes the 3 AP HA, replacing it with the
>5 AP/3.33 real STR -1/2, most of this is moot.
There's still a change (albeit an admittedly rather vague one) that this
may change, from what I understand, especially if we really really really
try to sell them on some sort of EB variant. :-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:24:13 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Champions PBeM?
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At 03:36 PM 2/25/1998 -0500, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>>I've been scouring the web trying to find a Champions PBeM to join... I've
>>found plenty that look great, but every single one of them is closed to new
>>players. I'm assuming that the only way I could get in would be to lurk
>>for some time and hope that the GM picks me to fill a vacancy that might
>>come up. Does anybody know of a Champions PBeM that is in need of another
>>player?
>
>Why don'cha bite the bullet and start one yourself? (for the record, I am
>running a PBeM myself for that very reason). PBeM have vacancies for all of
>15 seconds after their inception, or so it seems.
Well, I have a Fantasy Hero game with only four active players in it
(despite an initial response from 15), though my schedule's gotten kinda
screwed up lately and it's been slow going for a while.
Unfortunately, though, I'm not going to take any more new players until
I can get some campaign information posted on my website....
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:25:57 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Using Stretching as an attack
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At 12:29 PM 2/25/1998 -0800, Douglas Alger wrote:
>
>Thanks for everyone who took the time to offer their input! I was
>pleasantly surprised that most people were inclined to allow the ability,
>but suggested alternative methods to purchase it.
>
>I've proposed it to the 2 co-GMs in my gaming group via e-mail (along with
>a summary of everyone's posted comments), and should hear what they have to
>say quite soon.
I'd like to find out what they decide. :-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:28:23 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: Vampires (was Mitch's Dilemma)
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At 04:48 PM 2/25/1998 +0100, Rog wrote:
>Vlad also had a penchant to impale _anyone_ he considered undesirable
>(thieves, beggars, vagrants, foreigners, unwed pregnant women, etc)
>
>So while he did reduce crime in his domain, I'm sure he wasn't worshiped
>nearly as much as he was thoroughly feared by his people and the rest of
>Europe and the Near East.
Crime is rarely a major problem in a land ruled by a ruthless despot.
Betcha there's no crime on the Malachite Islands!
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:28:26 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Aid in a Multipower
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---Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:
>
> When you Aid yourself above your starting value somewhere, and that
Aid
> was in a multipower, and then you shift to another slot in your
> multipower, what happens? (see UMA p.162).
>
> What do you use in your campaigns, and are most people aware of the
UMA
> rule? What do people think of the rule?
I've never read it. If it says the aided points go away then the
writer was a moron. Aid is an Instant effect, not a Constant effect.
You fire it off, it happens - the fade rate is defined with the power.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Using Stretching as an attack
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:30:18 -0800 (PST)
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>>>> This is something not handled in Hero from I can think of off hand.
>>>> It would require a house rule or the use of the proposed 'advantaged'
>>>> advantage to allow reflection to be used on non missile attacks.
>>>
>>> Please don't start that again. Why not just propose a change to MD which
>>> would allow MR to work against non-missile attacks? Say, +1/2?
>>
>> Don't start? But you just continued. Making a new advantage is
>> utilizing an "Advantaged" advantage by nature.
>
> No, I was proposing a change to Missile Deflection. Symantically
> different than using the theorized "Advantaged Power" advantage. (Of
> course, in reality, the two are the same. I just didn't want a discussion
> of "Advantaged." This list constantly contains posts which assume
> "Advantaged" exists.)
Which it doesn't but should. A system should cater to the full needs
of the genre it goes for. A GM not able to keep a lid on the power level of
their own game has a seperate issue and should not be blaming a game system.
It should be there, with full advice as to it's usage and ptoential
pitfalls.
And +1/2 may or may not be reasonable. The question
is can the missile deflection still deflect missiles (and other ranged
attacks).
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:33:28 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Using Stretching as an attack
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> No, I was proposing a change to Missile Deflection. Symantically
> different than using the theorized "Advantaged Power" advantage. (Of
> course, in reality, the two are the same. I just didn't want a discussion
> of "Advantaged." This list constantly contains posts which assume
> "Advantaged" exists.)
>
> Anyway, what did you think of the proposed value: +1/2?
I didn't like it, actually. This is more of a case of damage
shield or block. Perhaps a damage shield with range would work in this
case.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:35:32 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: [OFF] GenCon Help
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> Does anybody still have a copy of GenCon registration info? Due to
> circumstances beyond my control, I'm not going to be able to make
> it this year, and I can't find a pre-reg form to learn how
> soon the deadline is for refunds, or if it's already passed.
Still have one? I've not gotten one at all. I'd like one so I
can plan for the Con, but I'm not sure I'm going to bother this year. Sad
that my 7 year streak will be broken.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 16:51:19 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Champions PBeM?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by John and Ron Prins
>Why don'cha bite the bullet and start one yourself? (for the record, I am
running a PBeM myself for that very reason). PBeM have vacancies for all of
15 seconds after their inception, or so it seems.<
I've been considering starting one myself (since I am almost always the GM
in face-to-face games), but since I've never run a PBeM and the last time I
played a message-based game was back when local BBS's were the main way to
use your modem, I thought the players and myself would have more confidence
in my ability if I had some PBeM experience under my belt. Plus, I'd have
to put a web site together and stuff... -grin-
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From: "Warren E Henderson III" <warren@newenglandpc.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 98 21:58:02
Reply-To: "Warren E Henderson III" <warren@newenglandpc.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: RE: Vampires (was Mitch's Dilemma)
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On Wed, 25 Feb 1998 16:48:12 +0100, Rog wrote:
>Vlad also had a penchant to impale _anyone_ he considered undesirable
>(thieves, beggars, vagrants, foreigners, unwed pregnant women, etc)
>
>So while he did reduce crime in his domain, I'm sure he wasn't worshiped
>nearly as much as he was thoroughly feared by his people and the rest of
>Europe and the Near East.
I may be wrong but, I think he was released from prison (The Hapsburg's
held him maybe?) he went berserk {Homeland under Muslim rule, VC, 14-,
8- recover} romped through the occupied lands and was a european hero.
He settled down to rule with an Iron Fist and the other european powers
took a dislike to him and arranged for the overthrows and eventual
murder. At least that is how it is/was perceived by the inhabitants of
the Carpathian (?) mountains. Seeings as that area kept getting
conquered by some other kingdom or other a local boy done good
mentality probably exsists. *Disclaimer* I read alot of both history
and fiction and am usually unable to keep straight what is what, though
if I remember it off hand I suspect it is fiction. Fiction always
sounds better than history.
This might be something to work into a campaign though. Your
intrepid heros travel to distant land, hearing of the horrible tyrant
that rules there. The closer they get the more the locals like him.
Whats a hero to do when 4 colors turn into 16 or 256? To most people
Vlad is a brutal and terrifing figure, to the christians of his time he
was doing God's work smiting the heathen turk. Later he was a crusader
against imperialism, okay maybe not, but that is part of his appeal to
his defenders.
Warren
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:05:41 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Power Frameworks
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Another common trend I've seen in my games is that players will put all
their attack powers (basically, powers that you only use one at a time)
into a Multipower (usually with only Ultra slots), and all of their other
powers (which you want to use along with others, such as defensive or
movement powers) into an Elemental Control. I haven't found anything to
say this is illegal, but it's obviously a way to squeeze more value out of
your starting points. Has anyone else seen this trend? Is it discouraged,
or perfectly fine?
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:06:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Aid in a Multipower
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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John Desmarais writes:
> I've never read it. If it says the aided points go away then the
> writer was a moron. Aid is an Instant effect, not a Constant effect.
> You fire it off, it happens - the fade rate is defined with the power.
(a) this is a play-balance issue, and (b) for a variable aid, switching what
you're aiding also somehow magically causes the aided points to go away, so
there's a precendent.
Speaking of such things, the 'uncontrolled' advantage means that the power is
no longer connected to the character, so...
what happens if I buy an uncontrolled zero END force field in a multipower,
activate the power, and then shift the multipower? What if I add 'usable
against others' so it is an attack power?
Reading the rules for uncontrolled, it really shouldn't matter...is it
acceptable that someone can give himself a +10/+10 force field (out of an ultra
slot in a 60 pt multipower) for 6 pts? And, give it to other people? All it
takes is a phase in which you activate the power and hit yourself (or someone
else) with it.....
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 16:08:28 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Aid in a Multipower
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> When you Aid yourself above your starting value somewhere, and that Aid
> was in a multipower, and then you shift to another slot in your
> multipower, what happens? (see UMA p.162).
You lose the AIDed points, unless they had replaced points lost
through other means. (Healing-type AID)
> What do you use in your campaigns, and are most people aware of the UMA
> rule? What do people think of the rule?
I'm not exactly sure of the UMA rule. What does it say again? I
don't want to go searching for my copy.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Aid in a Multipower
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "DPL" == Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> writes:
DPL> When you Aid yourself above your starting value somewhere, and that Aid
DPL> was in a multipower, and then you shift to another slot in your
DPL> multipower, what happens? (see UMA p.162).
If the Aided points are "healing" then nothing. If the Aided points exceed
the target's base values then they instantly vanish.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
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>>>>> "DS" == David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> writes:
DS> I haven't found anything to say this is illegal, but it's obviously a
DS> way to squeeze more value out of your starting points. Has anyone else
DS> seen this trend? Is it discouraged, or perfectly fine?
It is perfectly fine as far as game mechanics go. There is no proscription
against having multiple frameworks.
On the flip side, it can be expensive for a starting charcter to buy
several frameworks without placing some significant limitations on them.
As the GM it is your responsibility to ensure that those limitations are
actually worth the bonuses the character gets.
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:58:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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David Stallard writes:
> Another common trend I've seen in my games is that players will put all
> their attack powers (basically, powers that you only use one at a time)
> into a Multipower (usually with only Ultra slots), and all of their other
> powers (which you want to use along with others, such as defensive or
> movement powers) into an Elemental Control. I haven't found anything to
> say this is illegal, but it's obviously a way to squeeze more value out of
> your starting points. Has anyone else seen this trend? Is it discouraged,
> or perfectly fine?
>
Depends on the mood of your GM. Some people dislike ECs on general principles,
feeling that people should have a unified concept to start with. Assuming you
don't object to ECs, there's nothing terribly objectionable about this way of
constructing a character.
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:01:30 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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At 05:05 PM 2/25/98 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>Another common trend I've seen in my games is that players will put all
>their attack powers (basically, powers that you only use one at a time)
>into a Multipower (usually with only Ultra slots), and all of their other
>powers (which you want to use along with others, such as defensive or
>movement powers) into an Elemental Control. I haven't found anything to
>say this is illegal, but it's obviously a way to squeeze more value out of
>your starting points. Has anyone else seen this trend? Is it discouraged,
>or perfectly fine?
>
While I have never thought about it, I've always had it as an unwritten
rule that a character can have only 1 power framework, period -- MP, EC, or
VPP. There is no rule saying this, but every PC or NPC I've had has
followed this principle.
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:01:30 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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At 05:05 PM 2/25/98 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>Another common trend I've seen in my games is that players will put all
>their attack powers (basically, powers that you only use one at a time)
>into a Multipower (usually with only Ultra slots), and all of their other
>powers (which you want to use along with others, such as defensive or
>movement powers) into an Elemental Control. I haven't found anything to
>say this is illegal, but it's obviously a way to squeeze more value out of
>your starting points. Has anyone else seen this trend? Is it discouraged,
>or perfectly fine?
>
While I have never thought about it, I've always had it as an unwritten
rule that a character can have only 1 power framework, period -- MP, EC, or
VPP. There is no rule saying this, but every PC or NPC I've had has
followed this principle.
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 18:08:44 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Champions PBeM?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
>>Why don'cha bite the bullet and start one yourself?
>
>I've been considering starting one myself (since I am almost always the GM
>in face-to-face games), but since I've never run a PBeM and the last time I
>played a message-based game was back when local BBS's were the main way to
>use your modem, I thought the players and myself would have more confidence
>in my ability if I had some PBeM experience under my belt. Plus, I'd have
>to put a web site together and stuff... -grin-
Hey, forget all that. I started my own PBeM (for Jovian Chronicles, called
"Three Faces of Memory") without having web space and having experience in
exactly ONE previous PBeM, as a player, in one that basically went nowhere
before completely crashing and burning (wave if you too were a Champions
High School player). Four months and 26 turn synopis later, we're still
going strong with *twelve* players and only one turnover so far. One of my
players freed up web space of their own volition and all you really need is
Game Mastering skills, a bit of time, and some clearly defined rules (easily
found on several web pages).
So either I've been lucky, am an amazing game master, or it ain't all that hard.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:11:50 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Power Frameworks
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David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> writes:
>
> Another common trend I've seen in my games is that players will put all
> their attack powers (basically, powers that you only use one at a time)
> into a Multipower (usually with only Ultra slots), and all of their other
> powers (which you want to use along with others, such as defensive or
> movement powers) into an Elemental Control.
>
I've definitely seen this, and not just for 'starting' characters. It seemed
almost like the generic skeleton for energy projector characters. IMO,
it's certainly abusive if the justification for the elemental control is not
sufficient.
The other option was to buy up the other powers to be the same active points
as the attack power, so that they'd all fit into the same elemental control.
Curt
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 98 23:12:05
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Aid in a Multipower
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On Wed, 25 Feb 1998 19:16:57 -0500, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>At 04:08 PM 2/25/98 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>>> When you Aid yourself above your starting value somewhere, and that Aid
>>> was in a multipower, and then you shift to another slot in your
>>> multipower, what happens? (see UMA p.162).
>>
>> You lose the AIDed points, unless they had replaced points lost
>>through other means. (Healing-type AID)
>
>I've often wondered about the logic behind this. Why aren't Drains in
>Multipowers reversed when the slot is switched?
They aren't, just like every other instant power. Drained points don't come back,
Damage from an EB doesn't come back, you don't automatically "unteleport", a
dispelled power doesn't become undispelled, etc, etc, etc...
An instant power lasts just long enough for the character to implement it, but the effects
may linger.
Constant powers are maintained over time, and as such, their effects disipate when the
power is switched "off", as do persistant powers (although I think all of them are
nominally barred from frameworks by nature of being "special").
Character points lost of gained via adjustment powers return to their previous values at
a rate of 5 CP per turn (an exception is specified for "healed points").. With the
exception of any odd "special effect" circumstances this is the only way an adjustment
power is reversed.
If you don't like the way a rule works, fine, change it for your game; but don't
deliberately misrepresent it to others. The after effects of instant powers do not vanish
just because the power was switched off (and that's all you've done when you toggle to
a different multipower slot), that's why the rules differentiate between instant and
constant (and persistant) powers - so you know which ones just vanish and which one
don't.
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 18:12:59 -0500 (EST)
From: THE MAD HARLEQUIN <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Bubble-Boy
X-VMS-To: IN%"champ-l@omg.org"
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BubbleBoy can create bubbles to capture foes so his opponents
can carry their comrades back to their evil-space hoarde on the planet.
Nonxe...
...so, how do you model the bubbles? They float on their own about
a foot above the ground, they are bouncy, there is space inside them to move
around, and they are self-contained.
...in addition, they defend against attacks rather well, and can be
dispelled at will by BubbleBoy...
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:13:29 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: Area Effect HA]
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 08:03 PM 2/25/1998, qts wrote:
>On Tue, 24 Feb 1998 21:42:11 -0800, Robert A. West wrote:
>
>>Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>>
>>> At 02:11 PM 2/24/1998 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:
>>> >Hello, I have a speedster who has an area effect shockwave.
>>> >She waves her hands real fast and sends out an explosive vibration.
>>> >
>>> > I modeled it with HA, explosive.
>>> >
>>> >Do I need to also get explosive on my strength?
>>>
>>> No. However, the STR only adds 1d6 per 7.5 STR added.
>>
>>To repeat a question that I know I have asked before, but to which I have
>>never gotten an answer: WHERE IS THIS RULE? I can't find it anywhere,
>>even though I and everyone I know uses it.
>
>It's in the rules for weapons in Heroic games.
I've been able to find it in TUMA thanks to someone else's help, but
even with this mention (made twice now) I can't find it in the BBB. Could
you be a bit more specific, please? (Like page number, header, and
paragraph?)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 18:15:17 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
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>While I have never thought about it, I've always had it as an unwritten
>rule that a character can have only 1 power framework, period -- MP, EC, or
>VPP. There is no rule saying this, but every PC or NPC I've had has
>followed this principle.
<cough> 4th edition Solitaire <cough> 4th edition Quantum <cough>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 98 23:21:55
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Aid in a Multipower
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On Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:06:22 -0800 (PST), Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Speaking of such things, the 'uncontrolled' advantage means that the power is
>no longer connected to the character, so...
>what happens if I buy an uncontrolled zero END force field in a multipower,
>activate the power, and then shift the multipower? What if I add 'usable
>against others' so it is an attack power?
>
>Reading the rules for uncontrolled, it really shouldn't matter...is it
>acceptable that someone can give himself a +10/+10 force field (out of an ultra
>slot in a 60 pt multipower) for 6 pts? And, give it to other people? All it
>takes is a phase in which you activate the power and hit yourself (or someone
>else) with it.....
No, the power is still a "constant" power, and as such there is no lingering effect after
the power is switched to an "off" state. All uncontrolled does is specify that there is no
conscious thought required to maintain the power in an "on" state.
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:22:25 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: DC maxima
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At 04:08 PM 2/25/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>Message text written by Bob Greenwade
>> But to steer back to your question, I think 40-50 points is where
>they're *supposed* to be, and where they're assumed to be for most
>published beginning-level games. The PCs would probably be better off
>backing off to that range and buying more in the way of background skills
>and archetype tricks.<
>
>I'm assuming you meant beginning-level adventures. I don't think I've ever
>seen a Champions adventure that specified what level of character it was
>intended for, but then I haven't been buying nearly as many Champs books in
>the last year or two since my group has been exploring some other
>RPGs...have they started doing this, or are there some adventures that have
>more powerful villains than usual?
Most if not all of the published adventures assume beginning characters,
since the Hero Guys quite reasonably didn't wanmt to assume that the reader
owned any books other than Champions and the one being written (and, in
some cases, Dark Champions).
Personally, I consider it a mistake to write only for beginning
characters; it would be nice to have a few more adventures for more
experienced characters. That's why the adventures on my website are by and
large written assuming a moderate amount of experience.
What I was referring to, though, was the general assumptions in the
book. The *impression* I get is that George, Steve, and Rob were assuming
a 40-50 point range for beginning characters' attacks and such. It just so
happens that this has inflated over the past decade to 60-75 points.
I applaud the efforts of some writers and GMs to bring the power level
back down to where it was, though I certainly don't condemn those who
prefer the higher power levels; in fact, with heroic-level gaming making a
bit of a resurgence in the Champions Universe, I'd like to see some room
for cosmic-level characters with 80-100 points in attacks and other
abilities adjusted appropriately. (You know, a sort of Jack Kirby mindset.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:27:35 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 05:05 PM 2/25/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>Another common trend I've seen in my games is that players will put all
>their attack powers (basically, powers that you only use one at a time)
>into a Multipower (usually with only Ultra slots), and all of their other
>powers (which you want to use along with others, such as defensive or
>movement powers) into an Elemental Control. I haven't found anything to
>say this is illegal, but it's obviously a way to squeeze more value out of
>your starting points. Has anyone else seen this trend? Is it discouraged,
>or perfectly fine?
This depends on the character, and the GM's tastes, especially his
perspective of whether a character can use more than one attack at the same
time without them being Linked. (And let's not get into the Great Linked
Debate again peoples, we have to just all agree that the BBB isn't 100%
clear on the matter or there wouldn't be so much disagreement over it!)
For myself, since I do allow a character who is able to have more than
one attack active at the same time to use them together (albeit at a
penalty), and since I've seen that practice in published characters, I
allow it as long as the powers in the MP are ones that I'd allow in the EC.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:30:38 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Area Effect HA
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Somebody wrote:
>
> >By the way, since official errata nukes the 3 AP HA, replacing it with the
> >5 AP/3.33 real STR -1/2, most of this is moot.
>
Official errata ? Where is this available ?
Curt
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:37:11 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 06:15 PM 2/25/98 -0500, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>>While I have never thought about it, I've always had it as an unwritten
>>rule that a character can have only 1 power framework, period -- MP, EC, or
>>VPP. There is no rule saying this, but every PC or NPC I've had has
>>followed this principle.
>
><cough> 4th edition Solitaire <cough> 4th edition Quantum <cough>
>
Guess who never uses pre-designed PCs or NPCs? :)
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 18:39:49 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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>Depends on the mood of your GM. Some people dislike ECs on general principles,
>feeling that people should have a unified concept to start with.
Yeah, like Superman. There's a unified concept character if I ever saw one
^_^ Super Speed, Super Strength, Flight, X-Ray Vision, Heat Vision,
Invulnerability. All those lovely unified powers, bless Krypton. ^_^ Some
superheroes are just hodgepodges of various powers. Still-with-adamantium
Wolverine is another example, and so is Spider-Man - which of his powers can
actually be considered a 'spider ability'? Not his strength, as spider
muscle tissue is no stronger than human tissue, cell for cell. Spiders are
'strong' only because of the square/cube law. Nor his clinging, as spiders
don't cling through 'molecular attraction', but by hooks and pads on their
limbs. Nor his agility, as I've never seen spiders do amazing backflips or
dodge bullets. Nor his 'spider sense'. The only 'actual' spider power he has
is the ability to spin webs, and that's entirely technological (and spiders
never found so many uses for webs). If he had poison fangs and could suck
the juices out of his enemies and produce silk out of his ass, then he'd
have 'actual spider powers'. All Spidey has is a bunch of mutations that
seem spider-like - probably a result of psionic guidance by his subconcious
once a mutagenic element (i.e. radioactive spider venom) was introduced into
his system.
But seriously, ECs are a little strange. They're there supposedly to award a
'good concept', but some character types (like Bricks or Martial Artists)
have little opportunity to exploit them, because those concepts are
characteristic based not power based. Personally, I lean towards using ECs
as 'multiple aspects of a single power'. That would leave out characters
like Solitaire (who has an EC with two very disparate powers; magical
Teleport and magical Force Field) from having an EC, while someone like
Icicle (who basically makes Ice, though her Force Field is a little suspect
- does she create a 'body suit' of ice?) deserves one.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:45:02 -0800
From: Clinton Chard <chud@pioneer.net>
Subject: Re: Using Stretching as an attack
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Brian Wong wrote:
> > The character can warp space to ignore the intervening distance between
> > points, essentially creating wormholes. Her primary power is Stretching,
> > bought with the advantages indirect (simulating her ignoring the space
> > between herself and the end of her Stretching) and usable by other
> > (allowing a teammate to reach through such a portal as well).
> >
> > The suggestion was to make her Stretching usable AGAINST other, to redirect
> > hand-to-hand attacks made by opponents. She would open a portal in front of
> > an attacking villain, causing his blow to land somewhere else, i.e. upon
> > one of his teammates...
> >
> > Should this trick be treated like the Reflection power? Or is it just too
> > powerful?
> >
> This is a classic example of reflection.
>
> However reflection is listed as 'missile reflection', and won't reflect a
> non missile attack.
> The stretching usable against others INMHO would not be
> so 'directable' as to allow targeting. I would see it more
> as an ability to make their body go haywire.
>
What about Usable Against Others on the Stretching? According to the 4th ed. rule,
the user controls the power AGAINST an opponent. EXAMPLE: A character with this
advantage could Teleport someone away, or use Shrinking to shrink down an opponent.
The advantage requires a attack roll and has no range. In the case of Wormhole
Girl, She would buy ranged, only to max stretching limit. This would simulate the
bending of an opponents punch around yourself or into another opponent. This a +1
advantage.
> This is something not handled in Hero from I can think of off hand.
> It would require a house rule or the use of the proposed 'advantaged' advantage
> to allow reflection to be used on non missile attacks.
--
"Contrariwise," Continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be; and if it were
so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." -Lewis Carroll
Clinton Chard
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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:49:55 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Bubble-Boy
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 06:12 PM 2/25/98 -0500, THE MAD HARLEQUIN wrote:
> BubbleBoy can create bubbles to capture foes so his opponents
>can carry their comrades back to their evil-space hoarde on the planet.
>Nonxe...
>
> ...so, how do you model the bubbles? They float on their own about
>a foot above the ground, they are bouncy, there is space inside them to move
>around, and they are self-contained.
>
Force wall. Buy enough to enclose a hex. The 'bouncy' and 'floating'
features are just SFX.
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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 16:00:01 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 06:39 PM 2/25/98 -0500, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>>Depends on the mood of your GM. Some people dislike ECs on general
principles,
>>feeling that people should have a unified concept to start with.
>
>Yeah, like Superman. There's a unified concept character if I ever saw one
>^_^ Super Speed, Super Strength, Flight, X-Ray Vision, Heat Vision,
>Invulnerability. All those lovely unified powers, bless Krypton. ^_^
EC:"Super" Powers. In the DC universe, esp. during the 50s and early 60s,
that 'suite' of powers almost always came as a bundle. Not just
Kryptonians, either:Star Boy got them from flying through a comet, Ultra
Boy from being eaten by a space whale, there was a pool of radioactive
liquid that granted them temporarily, Pa Kent got them from being exposed
to alien spores...and there were dozens of others, usually temporary, that
got the same 'set'.
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 16:11:00 -0800
From: Clinton Chard <chud@pioneer.net>
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Anthony Jackson wrote:
> David Stallard writes:
> > Another common trend I've seen in my games is that players will put all
> > their attack powers (basically, powers that you only use one at a time)
> > into a Multipower (usually with only Ultra slots), and all of their other
> > powers (which you want to use along with others, such as defensive or
> > movement powers) into an Elemental Control. I haven't found anything to
> > say this is illegal, but it's obviously a way to squeeze more value out of
> > your starting points. Has anyone else seen this trend? Is it discouraged,
> > or perfectly fine?
> >
> Depends on the mood of your GM. Some people dislike ECs on general principles,
> feeling that people should have a unified concept to start with. Assuming you
> don't object to ECs, there's nothing terribly objectionable about this way of
> constructing a character.
I have always allowed Power Frameworks as a point break for good power conception,
not as a way of power gaming. If some ones character has a well defind power SFX
then he gets the bonus. If not...well, no bonus.
--
"Contrariwise," Continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be; and if it were
so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." -Lewis Carroll
Clinton Chard
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 16:13:16 -0800
From: Clinton Chard <chud@pioneer.net>
Subject: Re: Champions PBeM?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
John and Ron Prins wrote:
> >>Why don'cha bite the bullet and start one yourself?
> >
> >I've been considering starting one myself (since I am almost always the GM
> >in face-to-face games), but since I've never run a PBeM and the last time I
> >played a message-based game was back when local BBS's were the main way to
> >use your modem, I thought the players and myself would have more confidence
> >in my ability if I had some PBeM experience under my belt. Plus, I'd have
> >to put a web site together and stuff... -grin-
>
> Hey, forget all that. I started my own PBeM (for Jovian Chronicles, called
> "Three Faces of Memory") without having web space and having experience in
> exactly ONE previous PBeM, as a player, in one that basically went nowhere
> before completely crashing and burning (wave if you too were a Champions
> High School player).
*Waving*
> Four months and 26 turn synopis later, we're still
> going strong with *twelve* players and only one turnover so far. One of my
> players freed up web space of their own volition and all you really need is
> Game Mastering skills, a bit of time, and some clearly defined rules (easily
> found on several web pages).
>
> So either I've been lucky, am an amazing game master, or it ain't all that hard.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> "Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> John D. Prins
> jprins@interhop.net
--
"Contrariwise," Continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be; and if it were so,
it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." -Lewis Carroll
Clinton Chard
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 19:16:57 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Aid in a Multipower
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 04:08 PM 2/25/98 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>> When you Aid yourself above your starting value somewhere, and that Aid
>> was in a multipower, and then you shift to another slot in your
>> multipower, what happens? (see UMA p.162).
>
> You lose the AIDed points, unless they had replaced points lost
>through other means. (Healing-type AID)
I've often wondered about the logic behind this. Why aren't Drains in
Multipowers reversed when the slot is switched?
Joe
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 16:41:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Daniel R Palacio <dandan@cats.ucsc.edu>
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Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
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On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, John and Ron Prins wrote:
> Yeah, like Superman. There's a unified concept character if I ever saw one
> ^_^ Super Speed, Super Strength, Flight, X-Ray Vision, Heat Vision,
> Invulnerability. All those lovely unified powers, bless Krypton. ^_^
I once tried to build the GA Superman- or "Solarman" on 150+150
points. The way that I was able to do it was quasi-legal to say the
least. But EC-"Kryptonian Powers" seemed unethical, even to me...
(Comments about Wolverine and Spidey, who I would build with ECs, snipped)
> But seriously, ECs are a little strange. They're there supposedly to award a
> 'good concept', but some character types (like Bricks or Martial Artists)
> have little opportunity to exploit them, because those concepts are
> characteristic based not power based. Personally, I lean towards using ECs
> as 'multiple aspects of a single power'.
That's generally how I do it, and I add Aaron Allston's optional
EC rule in AC #25(?).
That would leave out characters
> like Solitaire (who has an EC with two very disparate powers; magical
> Teleport and magical Force Field) from having an EC,
In the Champions Universe rewrite/boost, the two powers are no
longer in an EC.
while someone like
> Icicle (who basically makes Ice, though her Force Field is a little suspect
> - does she create a 'body suit' of ice?) deserves one.
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:14:11 -0800
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger)
Subject: Re[2]: Power Frameworks
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Daniel Palacio wrote:
>(Comments about Wolverine and Spidey, who I would build with ECs, snipped)
Now, I can see putting Superman's abilities in an EC (although it is a
stretch) because they are all based on him being a solar battery (well,
post-Crisis, at least).
I can also imagine Spidey having an EC with Superleap, Clinging, and
his Spidey Sense (though that would be a GM call).
But Wolverine? The only things that I could possibly get him a EC bonus
would be his metallic skeleton/claws, giving him additional PD (or
PD Damage Resistance) and an HKA. His other abilities are seemingly random:
Regeneration and Tracking Scent. Plus lots of skills and Martial Arts.
What would go in his EC?
Richard
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 20:18:36 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 04:41 PM 2/25/98 -0800, Daniel R Palacio wrote:
> That's generally how I do it, and I add Aaron Allston's optional
>EC rule in AC #25(?).
Which is?
Joe
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 20:18:59 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Using Stretching as an attack
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 03:33 PM 2/25/98 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>> Anyway, what did you think of the proposed value: +1/2?
>
> I didn't like it, actually. This is more of a case of damage
>shield or block. Perhaps a damage shield with range would work in this
>case.
I thought about that, but you would also need Variable Special Effects.
The attack would still do damage to the target that you were trying to
protect. It's not the same effect.
Joe
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Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 20:25:16 -0500 (EST)
From: "Mike O'Connor" <mjo@dojo.mi.org>
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:>Yeah, like Superman. There's a unified concept character if I ever saw one
:>^_^ Super Speed, Super Strength, Flight, X-Ray Vision, Heat Vision,
:>Invulnerability. All those lovely unified powers, bless Krypton. ^_^
:
:EC:"Super" Powers. In the DC universe, esp. during the 50s and early 60s,
:that 'suite' of powers almost always came as a bundle. Not just
:Kryptonians, either:Star Boy got them from flying through a comet, Ultra
:Boy from being eaten by a space whale, there was a pool of radioactive
:liquid that granted them temporarily, Pa Kent got them from being exposed
:to alien spores...and there were dozens of others, usually temporary, that
:got the same 'set'.
Ultra Boy doesn't have an EC, but a multipower with ultra slots. :)
--
Michael J. O'Connor | WWW: http://dojo.mi.org/~mjo/ | Email: mjo@dojo.mi.org
InterNIC WHOIS: MJO | (has my PGP & Geek Code info) | Phone: +1 248-848-4481
=--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--=
"Life is what happens to you while you are busy making other plans." -Lennon
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Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 20:29:05 -0500 (EST)
From: "Mike O'Connor" <mjo@dojo.mi.org>
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:But seriously, ECs are a little strange. They're there supposedly to award a
:'good concept', but some character types (like Bricks or Martial Artists)
:have little opportunity to exploit them, because those concepts are
:characteristic based not power based. Personally, I lean towards using ECs
But can't Characteristics be put in an EC, given a good enough
justification?
--
Michael J. O'Connor | WWW: http://dojo.mi.org/~mjo/ | Email: mjo@dojo.mi.org
InterNIC WHOIS: MJO | (has my PGP & Geek Code info) | Phone: +1 248-848-4481
=--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--=
"Life is what happens to you while you are busy making other plans." -Lennon
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:43:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Daniel R Palacio <dandan@cats.ucsc.edu>
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Subject: Re: Bubble-Boy
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On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, THE MAD HARLEQUIN wrote:
> BubbleBoy can create bubbles to capture foes so his opponents
> can carry their comrades back to their evil-space hoarde on the planet.
> Nonxe...
> ...so, how do you model the bubbles? They float on their own about
> a foot above the ground, they are bouncy, there is space inside them to move
> around, and they are self-contained.
> ...in addition, they defend against attacks rather well, and can be
> dispelled at will by BubbleBoy...
My guess would be a Continuous, uncontrolled Force wall linked to
Continuous, Uncontrolled UAO Flight and Continuous, Uncontrolled UAO Life
Support, but Damn if it wouldn't be expensive.
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:48:28 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
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Hash: SHA1
At 08:25 PM 2/25/98 -0500, Mike O'Connor wrote:
>:>Yeah, like Superman. There's a unified concept character if I ever
saw one
>:>^_^ Super Speed, Super Strength, Flight, X-Ray Vision, Heat
Vision,
>:>Invulnerability. All those lovely unified powers, bless Krypton.
^_^
>:
>:EC:"Super" Powers. In the DC universe, esp. during the 50s and
early 60s,
>:that 'suite' of powers almost always came as a bundle. Not just
>:Kryptonians, either:Star Boy got them from flying through a comet,
Ultra
>:Boy from being eaten by a space whale, there was a pool of
radioactive
>:liquid that granted them temporarily, Pa Kent got them from being
exposed
>:to alien spores...and there were dozens of others, usually
temporary, that
>:got the same 'set'.
>
>Ultra Boy doesn't have an EC, but a multipower with ultra slots. :)
>
True. I was just noting that in the DC Universe, those are 'closely
related powers' and thus a legitimate EC. :)
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:20:48 -0500 (EST)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
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>:But seriously, ECs are a little strange. They're there supposedly to award a
>:'good concept', but some character types (like Bricks or Martial Artists)
>:have little opportunity to exploit them, because those concepts are
>:characteristic based not power based. Personally, I lean towards using ECs
>
>But can't Characteristics be put in an EC, given a good enough
>justification?
I believe that the characteristic in question has to have some sort of power
modifier on it (making it a power, not a characteristic) before you can do
this (this is a personal opinion not rules canon).
Note that Multipowers automatically strip figured characteristics back to
'no figured characteristics' if you put them in one, so they sorta become a
power too. At any rate, characteristics if frameworks other than multipowers
require special GM permission (that's canon).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:30:12 -0500 (EST)
From: David Majors <asmodeus@shell.ezy.net>
Reply-To: David Majors <asmodeus@shell.ezy.net>
Subject: RE: Bubble Boy
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> BubbleBoy can create bubbles to capture foes so his opponents
>can carry their comrades back to their evil-space hoarde on the planet.
>Nonxe...
>
> ...so, how do you model the bubbles? They float on their own about
>a foot above the ground, they are bouncy, there is space inside them to move
>around, and they are self-contained.
>
> ...in addition, they defend against attacks rather well, and can be
>dispelled at will by BubbleBoy...
A bubble could be purchased as follows:
6 PD 6 ED Force Wall 30 active points (6 hex sides with top and bottom
closed for a sphere) Reduced End to 0(+1/2)
Flight 5" AE 1 hex(+1/2) Reduced End to 0(+1/2), Usable against Others(+1)
Ranged (+1/2) 35 active, only to levitate contents of bubble (-1/2 or so
GM call) linked to wall(-1/2)
Life Support: Self Contained breathing, Vacuum/High Pressure, High
Radiation, Intense Heat/Cold (for space travel) AE 1 hex(+1/2),Usable vs
Others (+1), Ranged(+1/2) 30 active, linked to wall(-1/2)...
Some of this power should probably run out as the air does...
Pros: He could turn them off whenever he wanted to.
Cons: He couldn't fall asleep with them on unless he bought persistant.
He has to stay in range of the spheres unless he purchased it as a
continuing charge.
Change power levels, Add advantages and limitations to taste... I believe
this to be legal, enlighten me if it isn't...
Just a thought,
David Majors
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 20:52:25 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
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> Another common trend I've seen in my games is that players will put all
> their attack powers (basically, powers that you only use one at a time)
> into a Multipower (usually with only Ultra slots), and all of their other
> powers (which you want to use along with others, such as defensive or
> movement powers) into an Elemental Control. I haven't found anything to
> say this is illegal, but it's obviously a way to squeeze more value out of
> your starting points. Has anyone else seen this trend? Is it discouraged,
> or perfectly fine?
I've never had a problem, but watch out. This one's an emotional
issue. Personally I think that this encourages characters who are more
than one-trick ponies.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 20:54:11 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
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> While I have never thought about it, I've always had it as an unwritten
> rule that a character can have only 1 power framework, period -- MP, EC, or
> VPP. There is no rule saying this, but every PC or NPC I've had has
> followed this principle.
I don't really like this as a rule, but in general it seems to be
the de facto situation. Even though I'll allow the mixing of frameworks,
I rarely see more than one. It just isn't worth it, usually.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 20:55:28 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: RE: Vampires (was Mitch's Dilemma)
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> >So while he did reduce crime in his domain, I'm sure he wasn't worshiped
> >nearly as much as he was thoroughly feared by his people and the rest of
> >Europe and the Near East.
>
> Crime is rarely a major problem in a land ruled by a ruthless despot.
> Betcha there's no crime on the Malachite Islands!
Depends on whose definition your are using? Malachite's? Or the
Heroes?
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:02:23 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
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[much Spidey info -- and others -- cut]
> seem spider-like - probably a result of psionic guidance by his subconcious
> once a mutagenic element (i.e. radioactive spider venom) was introduced into
> his system.
Throw them out of the game! Such disunified characters don't
belong in a game! They are totally against the concept of SuperHeroes!
<g>
> But seriously, ECs are a little strange. They're there supposedly to award a
> 'good concept', but some character types (like Bricks or Martial Artists)
> have little opportunity to exploit them, because those concepts are
> characteristic based not power based.
Of course, as there are some inherent advantages built into
characteristics and MAs, perhaps these are meant to balance? I know, I
know. Too radical an idea, right?
> Personally, I lean towards using ECs
> as 'multiple aspects of a single power'. That would leave out characters
> like Solitaire (who has an EC with two very disparate powers; magical
> Teleport and magical Force Field) from having an EC, while someone like
> Icicle (who basically makes Ice, though her Force Field is a little suspect
> - does she create a 'body suit' of ice?) deserves one.
Hmmm. While this could make sense, I don't go with it. I just
try to judge as best I can what is an EC and what is not, using various
published characters and previous personal creations as guidelines.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:03:48 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
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> ><cough> 4th edition Solitaire <cough> 4th edition Quantum <cough>
> >
> Guess who never uses pre-designed PCs or NPCs? :)
Not me. I actually get a lot of use from the book characters.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:07:02 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
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> (Comments about Wolverine and Spidey, who I would build with ECs, snipped)
As we can see, no real agreement on what does and doesn't belong
in an EC.
> That's generally how I do it, and I add Aaron Allston's optional
> EC rule in AC #25(?).
For those of us not familiar, share.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:08:41 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
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> :But seriously, ECs are a little strange. They're there supposedly to award a
> :'good concept', but some character types (like Bricks or Martial Artists)
> :have little opportunity to exploit them, because those concepts are
> :characteristic based not power based. Personally, I lean towards using ECs
>
> But can't Characteristics be put in an EC, given a good enough
> justification?
Not if I'm GMing. Technically it is at GMs option, but this GM
will always say no. Try me with an example or two.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:55:14 -0600 (CST)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
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On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> > While I have never thought about it, I've always had it as an unwritten
> > rule that a character can have only 1 power framework, period -- MP, EC, or
> > VPP. There is no rule saying this, but every PC or NPC I've had has
> > followed this principle.
>
> I don't really like this as a rule, but in general it seems to be
> the de facto situation. Even though I'll allow the mixing of frameworks,
> I rarely see more than one. It just isn't worth it, usually.
I've created at least one character and probably more that used both ECs
and Multipowers.
One character had psychokinetic control of metal - not magnetic like
Magneto, more the ability to animate it, cause it to reshape the way she
wanted, etc. One of the side effects of this set of powers was that her
body would absorb metal and layer it along her bones and thread it into
her muscles.
Her EC had powers like tunnelling (only through metal), a Transform (metal
to metal in a different shape), an Entangle (causing a metal object to
wrap around someone). The Multipower was based on control over the metal
in her body, and included Hardened Armor, Stretching, Extra Limbs, HKA and
HA.
I've also used EC: Cybernetic Body with a Multipower that represented the
various weapons systems that the cyborg had.
I could see heros like Iron Man having both an EC: Powered Armor and a VPP
representing variations or gadgets built into that armor.
Anyway, I don't see a need for a rule saying 'never', although I'd think
that the combination warrants at least a magnifying glass.
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 23:14:01 -0500 (EST)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
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>> But can't Characteristics be put in an EC, given a good enough
>> justification?
>
> Not if I'm GMing. Technically it is at GMs option, but this GM
>will always say no. Try me with an example or two.
Okay, I'll bite. Way back (okay, a year and half ago), Mike Lehmann posted a
character he called 'Velocitor', who was a time-distorting character on 250
points. Naturally, the list tore it to shreds (it involved a LOT of what
most considered very imbalanced 'house' powers). I went and re-wrote it,
barely clinging to the rules structure as I went :-). Here it is, and it
contains an Elemental Control that is nothing but characteristics.
Before anyone asks, 'Only to Double natural attributes' means that
adjustment powers hit his 'non-power' characteristics first, and his 'power'
characteristics cannot more than double what his base characteristics are
currently at. So if he gets Drained from 15 DEX to 12 DEX, his best DEX is
24, not 27.
*****************************************************************************
Okay, I've said several times that its HARD to build a T-Distorting
character, expecially on 250 points. Having said this, I naturally had to
try :-). So here it is. I tried to stay fairly true to Mike's original
'conception' of the character, but made some changes.
First off, I do want to mention that, yes, I have built an EC with only
characteristics in it. Abusive, I admit, but it simulates his ability to
'accelerate' time within his own personal 'envelope', making him act at
twice the rate of the real world. Because of this, Velocitor gets free
recoveries at post-phase 6 as well as post-phase 12, but at 1/2 his total
REC. The way this works, he still only gets his total REC once per turn, but
it's split up into two recoveries. Normal, phase-taking recoveries operate
at his baseline REC, not his 'power' REC.
Secondly, I did a couple of 'power, not the power' things with
Desolidification and Teleport. These simulate his ability to 'stop time' and
get out of harm's way. If he could not normally reach his destination with
running/leaping (Teleport) or avoid the attack (dodge/dive for cover) he
still gets hit (Desolidification). Velocitor doesn't completely stop time
when he uses these powers, but it's close.
Thirdly, I dropped the gun. He should only be carrying around in secret
identity anyway (not hero ID), and I really needed the points. Sorry, but he
wasn't carrying around a nightstick or a radio or driving a cop car, so why
should he have the gun?. All that said, here we go....
Velocitor
Characteristics:
15 STR 5CP
15 DEX 15CP
15 CON 10CP
10 BOD 0CP
13 INT 3CP
10 EGO 0CP
13 PRE 3CP
12 COM 1CP
7 PD 4CP
6 ED 3CP
3 SPD 5CP
6 REC 0CP
30 END 0CP
26 STUN 0CP
Total Characteristics: 49 CP
Powers:
10CP Elemental Control: Temporal Acceleration Envelope (15), Only to Double
'Natural' Attributes (-1/4), Visible (-1/4)
12CP A.)+15 DEX, No Figured Characteristics (-1/2), No Skill Adds (-1/2)
10CP B.)+3 SPD
6CP +6 REC, Only For Post-Phase Recoveries (-1/2), Only to Double 'Natural'
Attributes (-1/4), Visible (-1/4)
50CP Multipower: Temporal Distortion (75), Requires a Temporal Distortion Skill
Roll (-1/2)
9CP A.) 4D6 Aid to All Movement Powers (+2), Ranged (+1/2) [Temporal
Acceleration Wave; 70 pt. Multi]
9CP B.) 2D6 Drain to All Movement Powers (+2), Ranged (+1/2) [Temporal
Decceleration Wave; 70 pt. Multi]
10CP C.) 5D6 Drain to DEX, Ranged (+1/2) [Temporal Distortion Wave; 75 pt.
Multi]
10CP D.) 5D6 Drain to BODY and STUN (1/2 to each), Ranged (+1/2) [Temporal
Degeneration Wave; 75 pt. Multi]
10CP E.) Change Environment 16" Radius, Variable (+1), 0 END (+1/2) [Temporal
Distortions; 75 pt. Multi]
2CP F.) Desolidification, Not Through Walls (-1/2), Must Be Possible to Avoid
An Attack without Use of Desolidification (-1/2) [Temporal Side-Step,
Vulnerable to Light-Based Powers (still to fast to avoid); 40 pt. Ultra]
4CP G.) 18" Teleportation, Must Be Able to Reach Destination without the Use
Use of Teleportation (-1/2) [Temporal Side-Step; bought this high b/c
his aided Running could go this high, 36 pt. Multi]
16 8 rPD/8r ED Armor, OIF-Protective Costume (-1/2)
Total Powers Cost: 158 CP
Skills/Perks/Talents:
19CP Temporal Distortion Skill (INT) 20-
3CP Absolute Time Sense
2CP FAM w/ Small Arms
1CP FAM w/ Nightstick
2CP KS: Criminal Law 11-
2CP AK: Home City 11-
2CP Perk: Local Police Powers
3CP Combat Driving 12-
3CP Conversation 12-
3CP Streetwise 12-
3CP PS: Cop (INT) 12-
S/P/T Cost: 43 CP
Total Cost: 49 + 158 + 43 = 250
Disadvantages:
100CP Character Base
20CP Normal Characteristic Maxima
15CP Secret Identity
10CP Unluck 2D6
10CP DNPC: Normal 8-
15CP Psychological Limitation: Will Only Kill to Protect Others (Uncommon,
Total)
15CP Psychological Limitation: Protective of Innocents (Common, Strong)
5CP Psychological Limitation: Obsessed with Punctuality) (Uncommon, Moderate)
10CP Watched by Temporal Continuity Corps (More Powerful, NCI, 8-)
20CP Hunted by VIPER (More Powerful, NCI, 8-)
10CP Vulnerability: 2xSTUN from Gravitics (causes temporal stresses) (Uncommon)
15CP Susceptibility: 2D6 per Turn from Temporal Shifts and Distortions (other
than own) (Uncommon)
5CP Physical Limitation: Temporal Acceleration Envelope Distorts Senses
(Infrequent, Slight) This causes minor color shifts and sound distortions.
Total Disadvantages: 250 CP
******************************************************************************
The pertinent question: Would you allow this character in your campaign?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Vampires (was Mitch's Dilemma)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 20:37:27 -0800
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On Tuesday, February 24, 1998 6:54 PM, Warren E. Henderson III wrote:
>On Tue, 24 Feb 1998 00:01:31 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>
>>Or legends before him. Bram Stoker took all of Dracula's abilities
>>from legends of the area surrounding Transylvania, Carpathia, and
>>Walachia (sp?), which was Dracula's actual home.
>>
>>
>
>I don't know much of the Vampire tie in with Vlad the Impaler, so I
>will take you word for it. It would not surpise me if the Turks gave
>Vlad the bad name, He was a hero to the people of the areas you
>mentioned.
I was a bit unclear. The legends don't say that Vlad Tepescu, son of
Vlad Dracul, a.k.a Vlad the Impailer a.k.a Dracula was a vampire. The
legends are where the powers of the vampire were taken for the book.
Everything that Dracula did in the novel was taken from legendary
vampire powers.
Note that in these particular legends, you could apparently kill a
vampire with knives, if you could stab him in the heart.
Filksinger
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Vampires (was Mitch's Dilemma)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 20:55:04 -0800
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On Tuesday, February 24, 1998 7:42 PM, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> Yeah, I recently saw a special on The Learning Channel (or maybe
>> The History Channel) about Vlad. He's really sort of a national
hero in
>> the area for his strong rule and actions against the Turks and
other
>> enemies. However, much of the rest of Europe feared him and
created
>> stories. The people of those areas really don't like Stoker all
that much
>> for what he's done to the name of their history's hero.
>
>Yes, but this a reason he was called 'The Impaler'. Vlad was an
amazingly
>ruthless fellow, even by the standards of his time, and showed his
enemies
>*no* mercy. There are stories of him executing large numbers of
Turks
>via impalement, including one where he feasted in a field of men
dying in
>such a manner.
While those stories were true, there were some which showed that he
did, occasionally, grant mercy. When he was a boy, he was held as a
hostage to ensure that his father would keep the peace treaty. His
jailers, for such they were, took him out and pretended they were
executing him as a game, just to torment him, on a daily basis. Later,
the Sultan offered him the heads of those men, and he granted them
mercy.
I am continuing this discussion on the list primarily because it
illustrates an interesting and complex character, who not only could
trigger other ideas, but, because of Bram Stoker, he could appear in a
modern or even futuristic campaign.
Filksinger
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From: "Chris Lea" <cdlea@hotmail.com>
Subject: [HERO] Re: Bubble Boy
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 22:28:02 PST
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>From: David Majors <asmodeus@shell.ezy.net>
>>BubbleBoy can create bubbles to capture foes so his
>>opponents can carry their comrades back to their
>>evil-space hoarde on the planet. Nonxe...
>>
>>...so, how do you model the bubbles? They float on
>>their own about a foot above the ground, they are
>>bouncy, there is space inside them to move around,
>>and they are self-contained.
>>
>>...in addition, they defend against attacks rather
>>well, and can be dispelled at will by BubbleBoy...
>
>A bubble could be purchased as follows:
>
>6 PD 6 ED Force Wall 30 active points (6 hex sides
>with top and bottom closed for a sphere) Reduced End
>to 0(+1/2)
>
>Flight 5" AE 1 hex(+1/2) Reduced End to 0(+1/2), Usable
>against Others(+1) Ranged (+1/2) 35 active, only to
>levitate contents of bubble (-1/2 or so GM call) linked
>to wall(-1/2)
>
>Life Support: Self Contained breathing, Vacuum/High
>Pressure, High Radiation, Intense Heat/Cold (for space
>travel) AE 1 hex(+1/2),Usable vs Others (+1), Ranged(+1/2)
>30 active, linked to wall(-1/2)...
>
>Some of this power should probably run out as the air does...
>
>Pros: He could turn them off whenever he wanted to.
>
>Cons: He couldn't fall asleep with them on unless he bought
>persistant.
> He has to stay in range of the spheres unless he purchased
>it as a continuing charge.
>
>Change power levels, Add advantages and limitations to
>taste... I believe this to be legal, enlighten me if it
>isn't...
Can I ask what is wrong with using Entangle?
Chris
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From: "Chris Lea" <cdlea@hotmail.com>
Subject: [HERO] Re: Power Frameworks
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 22:35:23 PST
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>From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
>> That's generally how I do it, and I add Aaron Allston's
>> optional EC rule in AC #25(?).
>
> For those of us not familiar, share.
I'm guessing that he's referring to Suppresses and Drains
that work vs. an SFX, thereby affecting an entire EC,
rather than than having to Drain each power individually.
Chris
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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 00:58:46 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Aid in a Multipower
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> If you don't like the way a rule works, fine, change it for your game; but don't
> deliberately misrepresent it to others. The after effects of instant powers do not vanish
> just because the power was switched off (and that's all you've done when you toggle to
> a different multipower slot), that's why the rules differentiate between instant and
> constant (and persistant) powers - so you know which ones just vanish and which one
> don't.
Excuse me! Get off the high horse, friend. Especially because
you are quite flat out wrong unless you are discussiong your own personal
house rules. When an AID is switched away from a MP slot, the points are
lost -- plain and simple. This has been made abundantly clear, as many
have just recently pointed out.
Getting morally indignant over an issue doesn't help your case
when you're wrong.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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From: Michael.Adams@october.com (Michael Adams)
Date: 25 Feb 98 23:09:10 -0800
Subject: Re: Campaign Questionnaires
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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In one of my universes the "Metas" first started showing up c.1860
when there was a passing of the Spheres (read Moorcock to know what I mean)
And things started to happen a bit different. It started slow, people
like Sherlocks Holmes came into existance. Then later as the "magic"
crept in, the real supers started showing up.
Over time the supers started to get to be low level to mid level, then
the invasion came from a parallel dimenstion and the supers
were drafted to fight the enemy, but the enemy had numbers and superior
technology, so the nations of Earth (The Confederation of Nations, sort
of like a less federalistic copy of the United Nations) fell.
And the people of earth who wished to fight the invaders went underground.
Sort of a Red Dawn scenario (I think I originally had the idea
after one of the times I saw the movie).
The current group in the scenario are a rebel group based of all places
Alaska (Alyeska in this world) (I live in Alaska okay).
They are made up of supers/metas and some normals in a fight to reclaim
Earth from the invaders. The invaders looks alot like elves or
Elrics Melnibonians.
Yes I am a reader of Moorcock, Zelazny, Farmer, Norton, MZBradley, and
a few others.
-=> Quoting herolist@october.com to All <=-
he> From: herolist@october.com (herolist)
he> Subject: Re: Campaign Questionnaires
he> To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero)
he> Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero)
he> From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
he> Subject: Re: Campaign Questionnaires
he> To: champ-l@omg.org
>
> Other Super Questions....
> Why are there supers in your world (ie ancient genetic tampering,
> Wildcards virus ect)? And this question I wouldn't expect the GM to tell
> the players, just that he knows what it is. I had mine planned and 8
> years later only 2 PCs know the answer; big mystery in the campaign.
>
he> You know. I actually intentionally did not answer this question
he> for my super world. It's not the focus I chose. My focus is on the
he> nature of they mythic hero ideal. Certain things just 'are'.
he> -!-
he> ! Origin: Usenet:Fidonet: Red October Gateway (1:143/241.0)
... I call things as I see them; If I didn't see them, I make them up!
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From: Michael.Adams@october.com (Michael Adams)
Date: 25 Feb 98 23:09:11 -0800
Subject: Power Armor set up.
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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Anyone have any examples of Power Armor?
Looking for ideas to rip off of for a world I am still working on.
Armor that can be used for:
Security Guard.
Or
Looks like Knights Armor.
Both able to be used by anyone (within reason).
I had some examples but... I lost them I think.
... This tagline is SHAREWARE! To register, send me $10
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From: Michael.Adams@october.com (Michael Adams)
Date: 25 Feb 98 23:09:11 -0800
Subject: Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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What about a character that is actually a AI unit, who uses something similar
to Star Trek holodeck technology to interact with normals?
Based on something like a ghost, but what about the times the character
is inside a computer network?
Only usable on computer networks?
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
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From: Michael.Adams@october.com (Michael Adams)
Date: 26 Feb 98 00:08:00 -0800
Subject: Red October BBS
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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For those who do not know:
408-629-4695, stop by before it is a memory.
I still have the number for Red October Beta around here.
I think when I first called up Red October was about the time my Dad bought his
first computer, and later the next year he passed away. It was a difficult part
of my life, but I like to think in part to being able to call a BBS like Red
October, kept me going, and focused on something other than my dads passing.
Later Bob, see you all on the net.
Mike
used to be Morgoth, Ghost Wheel, now working on Abrigon, the man and world.
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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 00:36:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Daniel R Palacio <dandan@cats.ucsc.edu>
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Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
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On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> > That's generally how I do it, and I add Aaron Allston's optional
> > EC rule in AC #25(?).
>
> For those of us not familiar, share.
Sorry. His suggestion was that, if a Drain, Transfer, etc.
targeted a slot in the EC, the drain would affect all of the powers in an
EC.
Assuming a character with a 30 pt EC, 60 active points in slots
a, b, and c
His first suggestion was that, if 45 pts was drained from slot a,
slots b and c would be down 45 points as well.
This seems a little too extreme, so I prefer his second option.
If slot A is targeted, the points are first drawn from the points in the
EC, then from slot A, so while slot A is down 45 points, slots B and C
are only down 30.
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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 00:39:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Daniel R Palacio <dandan@cats.ucsc.edu>
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Subject: Re: Re[2]: Power Frameworks
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On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, Richard G Schwerdtfeger wrote:
> But Wolverine? The only things that I could possibly get him a EC bonus
> would be his metallic skeleton/claws, giving him additional PD (or
> PD Damage Resistance) and an HKA. His other abilities are seemingly random:
> Regeneration and Tracking Scent. Plus lots of skills and Martial Arts.
> What would go in his EC?
>
I would have the Adamantium Skeleton with PD Damage Reduction and
the AP HKA, possibly an HA (even though I can't stand them).
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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 04:06:51 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
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Subject: RE: Vampires (was Mitch's Dilemma)
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> I may be wrong but, I think he was released from prison (The Hapsburg's
> held him maybe?) he went berserk {Homeland under Muslim rule, VC, 14-,
> 8- recover} romped through the occupied lands and was a european hero.
> He settled down to rule with an Iron Fist and the other european powers
> took a dislike to him and arranged for the overthrows and eventual
> murder. At least that is how it is/was perceived by the inhabitants of
> the Carpathian (?) mountains. Seeings as that area kept getting
Well, the first time he ruled only lasted a few months. Hardly time for
the European powers to even notice him. Let alone for him to become a
hero. His second reign lasted six years. The last only a couple of
weeks. He was a local hero certainly for his wars against the Turks. But
I doubt any of the European powers were worried enough about him to
overthrow him or kill him. Maybe the Hapsbergs, but more likely a local
rival.
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From: "" <dgraham882@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Champions PBeM?
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 02:56:32 PST
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>> Hey, forget all that. I started my own PBeM (for Jovian Chronicles,
called
>> "Three Faces of Memory") without having web space and having
experience in
>> exactly ONE previous PBeM, as a player, in one that basically went
nowhere
>> before completely crashing and burning (wave if you too were a
Champions
>> High School player).
>
>*Waving*
*Waving at superspeed* (For those of you who might remember, I was
playing Whiz Kid under another address in that campaign. Personally, I
think it was a great AND original concept. Too bad it didn't work out.
I really enjoyed it while it lasted.)
Anyway, there is an advantage to Lurking for those of you who plan to
start your own PBEM's. It gives you some ideas when you see how other
GM's do business without being a player. Besides, my own superheroic
Dark Champions PBEM could ALWAYS use more Lurkers. *shameless plug*
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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 06:43:00 -0500 (EST)
From: David Majors <asmodeus@shell.ezy.net>
Subject: Re: [HERO] Re: Bubble Boy
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On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, Chris Lea wrote:
> >>...so, how do you model the bubbles? They float on
> >>their own about a foot above the ground, they are
> >>bouncy, there is space inside them to move around,
> >>and they are self-contained.
>
> Can I ask what is wrong with using Entangle?
>
> Chris
I have always played that you can't move around in an entangle. So, I
went with a force field. If you used entangle, you would still need the
other affects, but wouldn't need area effect on either.
David Majors
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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 06:53:36 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Bubble-Boy
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On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, THE MAD HARLEQUIN wrote:
> BubbleBoy can create bubbles to capture foes so his opponents
> can carry their comrades back to their evil-space hoarde on the planet.
> Nonxe...
>
> ...so, how do you model the bubbles? They float on their own about
> a foot above the ground, they are bouncy, there is space inside them to move
> around, and they are self-contained.
>
> ...in addition, they defend against attacks rather well, and can be
> dispelled at will by BubbleBoy...
This construction is very similar to Mika's Telekinetic Sphere, a spell
belonging to one of my magician players. Mika, like virtually all wizards
in my universe, has telekinesis. Her "Force Manipulation" school specialty
allows her to expand upon her default telekinetic skill. This particular
spell encloses someone in a sphere of telekinetic force, in which anything
enclosed drops to 1/10th its normal weight. One of Mika's "tricks" is to
fire this baby at an opponent, then telekinetically raise the unfortunate
victim into the air...
In game mechanics, as others have suggested, this is a force wall. In
Mika's case, extra strength for her TK, only when targeting the force
wall, is sufficient for most applications. However, I disagree with the
Flight UAO that others have proposed. From what you're describing, Gliding
seems more appropriate. If Bubble-Boy can actually control the bubbles,
use TK, only vs. bubble. That way the weight of the object inside matters.
Only one other difficulty: you say "create bubbles." I think this
construction amounts to "create bubble." It's not really clear in the
standard rules how multiple instances of a constant power work. But if you
bought uncontrolled, or continuous charges, that would probably handle it.
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:55:13 +0000
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Hero Creator for Creator Workshop (OFF TOPIC!!!)
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David Fair wrote:
>
> Not suprising, really. We Mac folks take this kind of abuse all the time.
> I currently run HeroMaker on my Mac using Virtual PC, which runs Windows
> 95, DOS, Windows 3.1, Or Windows NT. And does it on my G3 faster than on
> a Pentium 300.
> I _highly_ reccomend virtual PC to an Mac-Heads who role-play.
>
I for one would love to know where you got your benchmarks from.
If you have them in a digitial format, perhaps you could mail them to me
(I doubt posting them here would be of any interest to anyone).
As someone who works with both PC's and Mac's professional I find your
claims intriguing.
An emulator? Run faster than the real thing? I those trousers?
I look forward to your evidence and reply,
TTFN
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X-Authentication-Warning: snowy.owlnet.rice.edu: chip owned process doing -bs
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 07:09:08 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Area Effect HA
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On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, Curt Hicks wrote:
> Somebody wrote:
Me! Me!
> > >By the way, since official errata nukes the 3 AP HA, replacing it with the
> > >5 AP/3.33 real STR -1/2, most of this is moot.
>
> Official errata ? Where is this available ?
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: 14 Dec 1997 20:14:12 GMT
From: Hero Games <herogames@aol.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes
Subject: Re: Should I buy the NEW Champions RuleBook???
My official errata for 4th Edition Hero System: Aid should be 10 pts. per
1 d6, and cross out Hand Attack as a power. If you want to add extra dice,
buy STR with a -1/2 Limitation (only for extra dice) or Energy Blast
(-1/2, no range).
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games, www.herogames.com
<Send email with your postal address to herogames@aol.com to get on the
Hero Plus mailing list; you'll get all the latest Hero news!>
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From: ErolB1@aol.com
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:48:34 EST
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
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In a message dated 98-02-25 17:26:20 EST, DBStallard@compuserve.com writes:
> Another common trend I've seen in my games is that players will put all
> their attack powers (basically, powers that you only use one at a time)
> into a Multipower (usually with only Ultra slots), and all of their other
> powers (which you want to use along with others, such as defensive or
> movement powers) into an Elemental Control. I haven't found anything to
> say this is illegal, but it's obviously a way to squeeze more value out of
> your starting points. Has anyone else seen this trend? Is it discouraged,
> or perfectly fine?
I don't have any problem at all with the attack-Multipower bit, although I
know that there are other people on the list who disallow it. Personally I
look at it as a sort of "'Variable Power' Advantage." Yes, it does save a lot
of points, but it patches what I consider to be an anti-point crock: Without
it, players would be heavily penalized for playing characters with more than
one attack - excessively penalized, IMHO.
Elemental Controls OTOH, I disallow completely. It's not just that ECs are
point crocks, it's also a matter of my finding them to be too ugly to live. My
view is that if one has an Elemental Control, then one should fit *all* the
powers of the appropriate special effect into the EC. Under the current rules
this is awkward at best and impossible at worse.
Erol K. Bayburt
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 05:50:56 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: Area Effect HA]
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At 07:22 PM 2/26/1998 -0800, Rick Holding wrote:
>Bob Greenwade wrote:
>> >To repeat a question that I know I have asked before, but to which I have
>> >never gotten an answer: WHERE IS THIS RULE? I can't find it anywhere,
>> >even though I and everyone I know uses it.
>>
>> Hm, I may need to fire up the barbecue and pull some crow out of the
>> freezer, because I've just looked through the BBB and TUMA and couldn't
>> find that. It may be a 3rd Edition rule that didn't carry forward. In
>> fact, TUMA says on page 156 that you can add STR up to the base points in
>> HA, and let that value add only base dice with the Explosion (or other
>> Advantage, except Invisible Power Effects) for free.
>
> If you have a look at the example weapons towards the back of the book,
>you will find that weapons that have +1 stun or AP (+1/2 advantage) add 1
>damage class per 7.5 strength. I can't actually find it in the book, but
I am
>sure that I have seen it written in 4th edition that you have to "buy" the
>advantage off with strength.
Ah yes, there it is all right. What you cite is a footnote to the Melee
Weapons table on page 202. Though not written in the form of a rule, the
intent is certainly clear enough.
Sheesh, what a place to put such an important rule -- as an implication
from a footnote on a table far from the character creation section!
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 06:03:42 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
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At 08:29 PM 2/25/1998 -0500, Mike O'Connor wrote:
>:But seriously, ECs are a little strange. They're there supposedly to award a
>:'good concept', but some character types (like Bricks or Martial Artists)
>:have little opportunity to exploit them, because those concepts are
>:characteristic based not power based. Personally, I lean towards using ECs
>
>But can't Characteristics be put in an EC, given a good enough
>justification?
Only with considerable justification.
However, as someone pointed out the last time the Great Elemental
Control Debate came around (or was it the Great STR Debate? Probably an
overlap), bricks get a point break with STR, while martial artists get a
point break with their maneuvers. (By similar token, weapon specialists,
gadgeteers, and power armor types get a point break from the Focus
Limitation.) Really, the whole thing is a lot less unbalanced than a lot
of people think.
And even though I've brought up my own version of how to treat ECs when
one of their Powers are Drained, I've rarely gotten a comment on it.
(Basically, to put it in a nutshell, a Drained Power becomes "the smallest
Power in the EC," meaning that once its overall Active Point cost starts to
go below twice the EC value, the Drained points come half from the Power
and half from the EC Pool. This means that all other Powers in the EC
start to lose Active Points at half the rate of the Power being Drained,
until the EC Pool is gone.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 06:08:36 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
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At 08:54 PM 2/25/1998 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> While I have never thought about it, I've always had it as an unwritten
>> rule that a character can have only 1 power framework, period -- MP, EC, or
>> VPP. There is no rule saying this, but every PC or NPC I've had has
>> followed this principle.
>
> I don't really like this as a rule, but in general it seems to be
>the de facto situation. Even though I'll allow the mixing of frameworks,
>I rarely see more than one. It just isn't worth it, usually.
I've been known to go the opposite direction on one occasion (albeit
under First Edition rules), actually putting Multipowers in as Elemental
Control slots (only the Pool of the MP counted as an EC slot), and
Elemental Controls as Multipower slots (the total cost, before Limitations,
was the size of the slot). The character in question was a powerful
weather-controller, and just going with one or two Multipowers and one
Elemental Control would probably have been much simpler, though (or even
using a VPP once those were introduced).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 06:15:23 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: Vampires (was Mitch's Dilemma)
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At 08:55 PM 2/25/1998 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> >So while he did reduce crime in his domain, I'm sure he wasn't worshiped
>> >nearly as much as he was thoroughly feared by his people and the rest of
>> >Europe and the Near East.
>>
>> Crime is rarely a major problem in a land ruled by a ruthless despot.
>> Betcha there's no crime on the Malachite Islands!
>
> Depends on whose definition your are using? Malachite's? Or the
>Heroes?
The classic definition. Little or no robbery, arson, murder, and so
forth. I'd even go so far as to guess that jaywalking is a rare offense.
Of course, that's not solely because Malachite is a Not Nice Person.
Knowing him, most of the residents are also genetically engineered to be
obedient to him. (Which, of course, is just another aspect of his being a
Not Nice Person.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
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X-Sender: mactyre@mail.aci.net
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 06:17:16 -0800
From: Matthew Mactyre <mactyre@aci.net>
Subject: Re: Red October BBS
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At 12:08 AM 2/26/98 -0800, Michael Adams wrote:
>For those who do not know:
>
>408-629-4695, stop by before it is a memory.
>
>I still have the number for Red October Beta around here.
>
>I think when I first called up Red October was about the time my Dad
bought his
>first computer, and later the next year he passed away. It was a difficult
part
>of my life, but I like to think in part to being able to call a BBS like Red
>October, kept me going, and focused on something other than my dads passing.
>
>Later Bob, see you all on the net.
s
Bob is still around, and has been hanging out from time to time on the
Dalnet channel #herochat. Red October will continue to exist on our web
site at http://www.mactyre.net/october I spoke with Bob Q. yesterday about
adding new files to Red October, and we agreed that new hero material will
be added to the Red October site.
It is true you wouldn't be able to dial directly in anymore, and that the
telnet bbs will be going down as soon as Bob takes it down. However, the
spirit of Red October lives on. Bob will be keeping his domain, and his
address will remain the same. Drop him a line and tell him how much you
appreciate all the work he has done over the years. His address remains:
bquinlan@october.com
Matthew
Matthew Mactyre
mcm@mactyre.net
http://www.mactyre.net
Join us on IRC Dalnet #herochat to discuss Hero games
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
Subject: Time Distortion (was Re: Power Frameworks)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 06:27:19 -0800
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John Prins wrote:
>2CP F.) Desolidification, Not Through Walls (-1/2), Must Be Possible
to Avoid
> An Attack without Use of Desolidification (-1/2) [Temporal
Side-Step,
> Vulnerable to Light-Based Powers (still too fast to avoid); 40
pt. Ultra]
I like this idea. The old super-dodge ability with a superspeed effect.
Very cool.
>1CP FAM w/ Nightstick
Isn't this covered in the everyman WF: Clubs?
>5CP Psychological Limitation: Obsessed with Punctuality (Uncommon,
Moderate)
A cute touch.
>The pertinent question: Would you allow this character in your
campaign?
Sure. But I'd make sure that a gravity villain and a draining villain
were around at times to enforce those lims and disads.
--
Here's another 250 time-distorter. A spy for a Russian group called
RUSE.
TimeSlip
--------
Value Cost
15 STR 5
30 DEX 60 (Not natural, he just gets an edge from freezing
time)
13 CON 6
10 BOD -
23 INT 13
20 EGO 20
13 PRE 3
10 COM -
4 PD 1
3 ED -
6 SPD 20 (Same here)
6 REC -
26 END -
25 STN -
40 Time freeze MP
[ Think 'The Girl, the Gold Watch, and Everything'... ]
3u Combat teleport 15" visible effects
[ Due to the way he 'teleports', he leaves a light-smear ]
[ similar to the one the Flash (TV) leaves when he runs ]
[ really fast. Since one of the main advantages of ]
[ teleporting in combat is teleporting out so that your ]
[ opponent doesn't know where you are, I gave this -1/4 ]
[ lim to his power. ]
4u Teleport 5" 128xNCM (640" long range = 0.8 miles)
4u Teleport 10" usable against others (not ranged)
[ He can freeze time to move someone near him someplace ]
[ else. That's good protect against move throughs and ]
[ haymakers. It's also a good way to protect teammates. ]
3u +8 DCV (costs END)
[ he can freeze time just before he gets attacked, and ]
[ move out of the way. ]
4u Clairsentience for sight and touch
360 degree (range = 350")
[ He can freeze time and search a place/person. Only his ]
[ sight and touch senses apply. Sound and smells won't ]
[ travel in no-time. ]
2u 8d Heal Self (2/3 to STUN, 1/3 to END)
[ He can freeze time and recover. ]
2u 4 DEF 4d Body Entangle
(OAF lengths of wire)
[ He keeps several lengths of strong wire to tie people ]
[ up while they're frozen. ]
3u Missile Reflect (up to bullets) +10 to OCV (costs END)
[ He can freeze time, then move a bullet which has been ]
[ fired to behind the firer (he can't change velocity ]
[ or direction in no-time). ]
3u 3d EB auto +2d (OAF)
[ He carries a billyclub that he can use to add to his ]
[ own multiple attacks against frozen opponents. Misses ]
[ don't mean that he missed the target -- he can always ]
[ hit them, they're frozen -- misses mean that he didn't ]
[ cause any appreciable damage (he's not a very apt ]
[ fighter. ]
21 Equipment
(7) 1d+1 RKA 6 shots, 2 clips
(2) Radio
(6) +6 rPD/rED (11-)
3 Absolute Time /
3 Lightning Calc /--' All tricks of
3 Speed Reading \--. time freezing
3 Fast Draw \
2 P: Spy 11-
3 K: Espionage 14-
2 WF: Sm.Arms
5 Drive any 15-
5 Pilot any 15-
3 Mechanics 11-
3 Navigation 11-
3 Shadowing 11-
-5 RUSE Package
128 (Char) + 68 (Powers) + 54 (Skills) = 250 = 100 (Base) + 150 (Disads)
10 Physical Lim: Ages rapidly
10 Dist Features: RUSE Agent (applies to limited group: other spies)
10 Rival agent (all Soviet agents must prove better than the rest)
10 W: RUSE 14-
5 W: FBI 8-
5 W: CIA 8-
5 W: KGB 8-
5 W: MI5 8-
20 Obedient to RUSE com, total (you have to be)
15 Paranoid com, str (ditto)
20 2x effects from adjustments
30 2x effects from heat/fire (freezing time heats him up already)
15 Dependence: power drug each day; 3d6 suppress ALL Powers
Dave Mattingly
http://www.geocities.com/soho/5953
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 06:29:27 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> > > While I have never thought about it, I've always had it as an unwritten
> > > rule that a character can have only 1 power framework, period -- MP, EC, or
> > > VPP. There is no rule saying this, but every PC or NPC I've had has
> > > followed this principle.
> >
> > I don't really like this as a rule, but in general it seems to be
> > the de facto situation. Even though I'll allow the mixing of frameworks,
> > I rarely see more than one. It just isn't worth it, usually.
>
> I've created at least one character and probably more that used both ECs
> and Multipowers.
On those occassions where I've actually bothered to write up a full
character sheet...
I've routinely used multiple power frameworks.
Perhaps an offensive and a defensive multipower, for a concept who's
powers can be simulated with multiple diferent mechanics. Or the ever common
multipower and EC in the same character. VPP's as well, often mix well with
an EC or multipower. especially a low power VPP designed to allow 'refinements'
on the existing powers.
Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 06:31:12 -0800
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Michael Adams asks:
>What about a character that is actually a AI unit, who uses something
>similar to Star Trek holodeck technology to interact with normals?
>Based on something like a ghost, but what about the times the character
>is inside a computer network?
I'd build the character as an actual AI (computer with EGO) that has TK
and Images.
Dave Mattingly
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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Time Distortion (was Re: Power Frameworks)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:12:35 -0500 (EST)
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> TimeSlip
> --------
<snip>
> 40 Time freeze MP
> [ Think 'The Girl, the Gold Watch, and Everything'... ]
Great film!
> 4u Teleport 10" usable against others (not ranged)
> 3u +8 DCV (costs END)
> 4u Clairsentience for sight and touch
> 360 degree (range = 350")
> 2u 8d Heal Self (2/3 to STUN, 1/3 to END)
> 2u 4 DEF 4d Body Entangle
> (OAF lengths of wire)
> 3u Missile Reflect (up to bullets) +10 to OCV (costs END)
> 3u 3d EB auto +2d (OAF)
All of these powers need Invisible Power Effects. No one can see him
doing these powers while time is stopped.
> 3 Absolute Time /
> 3 Lightning Calc /--' All tricks of
> 3 Speed Reading \--. time freezing
> 3 Fast Draw \
Cute.
IPE is the part about Time Manipulators that makes them cost prohibitive.
Joe
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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:00:46 -0500
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions
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Michael.Adams@october.com (Michael Adams) wrote:
What about a character that is actually a AI unit, who uses something similar
to Star Trek holodeck technology to interact with normals?
Based on something like a ghost, but what about the times the character
is inside a computer network?
Only usable on computer networks?
If by "something like a ghost", you mean the Spirit rules (from
the HSA and Horror Hero), I think they'd work fine. Those rules
have a few bugs, but they're really nice for representing any
nonlocalized personality
You don't mention if this is a PC or an NPC. If you want to adhere
to the rules strictly, the rules for Spirits (like Computers,
Automatons, etc.) are out of bounds for PC's, though I've
allowed it on a number of occasions.
Another possibility is to build this character as a Computer
(AI, of course), then give it Light Illusions with a good range.
This works pretty well for Red Dwarf's Rimmer, at least before
he got his Hard Light Drive. This will get more complicated if
you want one of those solid hologram things - I suppose you could
add Telekinesis. Clairsentience might be a good thing to buy as
well. If you want to get really weird, buy an AI, give it Duplication,
and build the duplicate as a normal character.
Finally, there's the approach of treating the AI as a special
effect. Just build a character with Desolidification, Teleportation,
and a bunch of computer type abilities like Eidetic Memory,
Lightning Calculator, and Radio Hearing.
So, you have lots of options. A large part of this is deciding
how you want the projection to work. Do you want a realistic
hologram which can't really affect the world and can't really
be affected by it? Do you want a "solid" but basically expendable
projection. Or do you want a projection which, for the sake of
drama and play balance, somehow communicates the damage it takes
to the actual computer?
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Time Distortion (was Re: Power Frameworks)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:27:12 -0800
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Joe Mucchiello [why@superlink.net] said:
>All of these powers need Invisible Power Effects. No one can see
>him doing these powers while time is stopped. IPE is the part
>about Time Manipulators that makes them cost prohibitive.
So declare that the effects aren't invisible.
His Teleport was specifically bought as leaving a "light smear" of his
path as the stopped photons along his trail were restarted again all at
once. His other powers can do the same.
> 4u Teleport 10" usable against others (not ranged)
A light smear shows him grabbing you and moving you and running back to
his original position.
> 3u +8 DCV (costs END)
He's constantly dodging around all over his hex much faster than your
eye can even follow. He looks like the old video game Qix.
> 4u Clairsentience for sight and touch
> 360 degree (range = 350")
Light smear all over the building or whatever he's searching.
> 2u 8d Heal Self (2/3 to STUN, 1/3 to END)
This one's a little more difficult to show... Since there's no visible
effect on normal recovery, I guess this one would have to be bought IPE.
Any suggestions on visible effects for this one anyone?
> 2u 4 DEF 4d Body Entangle
> (OAF lengths of wire)
Lights smears show him tying you securely with a wire.
> 3u Missile Reflect (up to bullets) +10 to OCV (costs END)
Light smears show him grabbing a bullet and dragging it to another
location.
> 3u 3d EB auto +2d (OAF)
Light smears show him hitting multiple times.
Visible effects just mean that anyone with sight can obviously tell
who's using the power, and probably what the power is. Not all time
distorters have to have invisible effects.
Dave Mattingly
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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:33:41 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Time Distortion (was Re: Power Frameworks)
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>John Prins wrote:
>>2CP F.) Desolidification, Not Through Walls (-1/2), Must Be Possible
>>to Avoid An Attack without Use of Desolidification (-1/2) [Temporal
>>Side-Step, Vulnerable to Light-Based Powers (still too fast to avoid); 40
>>pt. Ultra]
>
>I like this idea. The old super-dodge ability with a superspeed effect.
>Very cool.
I guess that's why he's called 'Velocitor'. He couldn't actually stop time,
just speed it up/slow it down. He speeded up time within his own 'envelope'
to effectively act twice as fast, and could go further for special tricks.
>>1CP FAM w/ Nightstick
>
>Isn't this covered in the everyman WF: Clubs?
DOH! It's a loose CP! Quick, grab it! :-)
>>5CP Psychological Limitation: Obsessed with Punctuality (Uncommon,
>Moderate)
>
>A cute touch.
Hey, if you know time is flexible...personally, I have this Psych.Lim. If I
can, I tend to show up early, and people that show up late piss me off.
>TimeSlip
>--------
>40 Time freeze MP
>
> [ Think 'The Girl, the Gold Watch, and Everything'... ]
>
>3u Combat teleport 15" visible effects
>4u Teleport 5" 128xNCM (640" long range = 0.8 miles)
>4u Teleport 10" usable against others (not ranged)
>3u +8 DCV (costs END)
>4u Clairsentience for sight and touch
> 360 degree (range = 350")
Heh, heh. Fondle everything in a 700 meter radius? The problem with this
power is that he should be able to swipe stuff if he can search rooms and
pockets. Maybe you need a selective area effect UAO teleport to use in
concert - too bad your MP is so small.
>2u 8d Heal Self (2/3 to STUN, 1/3 to END)
Heh. RECs on the half-phase.
>2u 4 DEF 4d Body Entangle
> (OAF lengths of wire)
I suppose if you blow the attack roll the target wasn't in a position
condusive to being tied up?
>3u Missile Reflect (up to bullets) +10 to OCV (costs END)
> [ He can freeze time, then move a bullet which has been ]
I don't actually like the idea of stuff 'frozen' in time being portable.
Especially not stuff that has a great deal of energy at the time, like a
speeding bullet.
>3u 3d EB auto +2d (OAF)
Not 100% satisfactory for a 'time freezer', but it's pretty good. For a
strictly time-freezer type, I'd probably go for a Cosmic VPP (Limited
Powers) - a 50 pointer would run you 100 total. Velocitor needed 'more
power' than that, what with the Aid/Drain to all powers of SFX (+2) he had.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:41:00 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Powers as Disadvantages...
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Has anyone ever considered writing up particularly self-destructive
powers as disadvantages? For example, a villain in the LSH had the
unfortunate 'ability' to make all women in her immediate vicinity
hate her -- she could not turn off or control this power. I would
write it up like this:
10d6 Mind Control, 0 END+Persistant (+1), AE Radius
(+1),Continuous(+1), Always On (-1/4), Single Command:"Hate me" (-1),
Only affects females (-1/2):Total real cost, 72 points(!).
So you'd be asking a character to spend 72 points for a completely
(or nearly) useless, and often dangerous, power.
OTOH, giving her -88 points seems overly generous.
I would think some sort of Physical Limitation is in order here, but
I think it ought to be somehow modelled or based on the nature of the
'bad' power (the above is only one example -- I'm sure people can
think of many 'powers' that are not things you want to have). Some
sort of Active Point formula, perhaps? Ideas?
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions
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>>>>> "MA" == Michael Adams <Michael.Adams@october.com> writes:
MA> What about a character that is actually a AI unit, who uses something
MA> similar to Star Trek holodeck technology to interact with normals?
Build him as a normal character with appropriate powers and such. The rest
is special effects.
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"David Majors\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 98 19:17:39
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: RE: Bubble Boy
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On Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:30:12 -0500 (EST), David Majors wrote:
>
>> BubbleBoy can create bubbles to capture foes so his opponents
>>can carry their comrades back to their evil-space hoarde on the planet.
>>Nonxe...
>>
>> ...so, how do you model the bubbles? They float on their own about
>>a foot above the ground, they are bouncy, there is space inside them to move
>>around, and they are self-contained.
>>
>> ...in addition, they defend against attacks rather well, and can be
>>dispelled at will by BubbleBoy...
>
>A bubble could be purchased as follows:
>
>6 PD 6 ED Force Wall 30 active points (6 hex sides with top and bottom
>closed for a sphere) Reduced End to 0(+1/2)
>
>Flight 5" AE 1 hex(+1/2) Reduced End to 0(+1/2), Usable against Others(+1)
>Ranged (+1/2) 35 active, only to levitate contents of bubble (-1/2 or so
>GM call) linked to wall(-1/2)
>
>Life Support: Self Contained breathing, Vacuum/High Pressure, High
>Radiation, Intense Heat/Cold (for space travel) AE 1 hex(+1/2),Usable vs
>Others (+1), Ranged(+1/2) 30 active, linked to wall(-1/2)...
>
>Some of this power should probably run out as the air does...
>
>Pros: He could turn them off whenever he wanted to.
>
>Cons: He couldn't fall asleep with them on unless he bought persistant.
> He has to stay in range of the spheres unless he purchased it as a
> continuing charge.
>
>Change power levels, Add advantages and limitations to taste... I believe
>this to be legal, enlighten me if it isn't...
Isn't this exactly the 'Entangle with Backlash' given on p 68?
qts
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"John and Ron Prins\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 98 19:28:27
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
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On Wed, 25 Feb 1998 18:39:49 -0500 (EST), John and Ron Prins wrote:
>But seriously, ECs are a little strange. They're there supposedly to award a
>'good concept', but some character types (like Bricks or Martial Artists)
>have little opportunity to exploit them, because those concepts are
>characteristic based not power based. Personally, I lean towards using ECs
>as 'multiple aspects of a single power'. That would leave out characters
>like Solitaire (who has an EC with two very disparate powers; magical
>Teleport and magical Force Field) from having an EC, while someone like
>Icicle (who basically makes Ice, though her Force Field is a little suspect
>- does she create a 'body suit' of ice?) deserves one.
In November, I posted a posit about Frameworks:
[Begin quote]
Would people agree that there is a general progression of experience
reflected by cost in the various frameworks?
With a multipower, generally a character can only use one or two powers
at the same time.
With an Elemental Control, a character can demonstrate their skill by
performing all their tricks at the same time.
With a Variable Power Pool, a character can demonstrate their mastery
by doing *anything* [related to the SFX and guided by the Limitations,
of course].
Comments? And yes, I know that a VPP can be cheaper than an EC, but
you've got the AP cap.
[End]
qts
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Time Distortion (was Re: Power Frameworks)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:33:32 -0800
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>>4u Clairsentience for sight and touch
>> 360 degree (range = 350")
>Heh, heh. Fondle everything in a 700 meter radius? The problem with
>this power is that he should be able to swipe stuff if he can search
>rooms and pockets. Maybe you need a selective area effect UAO
>teleport to use in concert - too bad your MP is so small.
I've also used a variation on this power in which the Clairsentience is
Area Effect, for an extremely thorough scan, with the limitation that
the clairsentience can't see through closed or locked containers/doors.
The special effect is that he could wander around in stopped time, but
could not move anything, not even to open it.
This also can explain why his multipower is so limited. It's not that he
can do lots of things when he stops time, it's that he stops time in
different ways. Sometimes he changes his own position. Sometimes he
changes others positions, but that expends his stoptime energy for the
phase, and he instantly snaps back to where he was when time resumes
again. Or, some timestop characters might have to manually get back to
where they were before, like an actor doing a freeze frame shot.
>>2u 4 DEF 4d Body Entangle
>> (OAF lengths of wire)
>I suppose if you blow the attack roll the target wasn't in a position
>conducive to being tied up?
Yes. Or the knot didn't hold very well, or the victim was able to slip
his coat off to immediately escape, or something like that. But with a
natural 10 OCV, he's got a pretty good chance of hitting anyway.
>>3u Missile Reflect (up to bullets) +10 to OCV (costs END)
>> [ He can freeze time, then move a bullet which has been ]
>I don't actually like the idea of stuff 'frozen' in time being
>portable. Especially not stuff that has a great deal of energy
>at the time, like a speeding bullet.
I understand. But I think of it as another way to freeze time. He can
change position without affecting momentum. Which is just like a
Teleport UAO, for a moving opponent.
>Not 100% satisfactory for a 'time freezer', but it's pretty good.
I have many other suggestions for time-freezers. TimeSlip is merely one
character of a type. Go to
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/1905/haym12.html to check out
more ideas on time manipulation (much more than just freezing) in the
Hero System.
Dave Mattingly
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Daniel R Palacio\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 98 19:41:33
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
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On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 00:36:44 -0800 (PST), Daniel R Palacio wrote:
>On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> > That's generally how I do it, and I add Aaron Allston's optional
>> > EC rule in AC #25(?).
>>
>> For those of us not familiar, share.
>
> Sorry. His suggestion was that, if a Drain, Transfer, etc.
>targeted a slot in the EC, the drain would affect all of the powers in an
>EC.
>
> Assuming a character with a 30 pt EC, 60 active points in slots
>a, b, and c
>
> His first suggestion was that, if 45 pts was drained from slot a,
>slots b and c would be down 45 points as well.
>
> This seems a little too extreme, so I prefer his second option.
>If slot A is targeted, the points are first drawn from the points in the
>EC, then from slot A, so while slot A is down 45 points, slots B and C
>are only down 30.
Wasn't it the other way round? If you have a 30 pt EC with 60 pt
powers, *after* one power had been Drained 30 pts, *then* the other
powers were affected?
qts
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From: GoldRushG@aol.com
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:43:20 EST
Subject: Fantasy Hero
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We're still looking for adventures to round out our Heroic Adventures Volume
3 (Fantasy Hero) book. If you would like to contribute to this book, send us
your proposal for an adventure. Here are the criteria:
Length: 8,000 - 10,000 words
Setting: It can be well described, but omit names of large regions or
nations; this needs to be generic enough to work in any FH campaign
Characters: They can be as "weak" or "powerful" as you think is necessary
for the story, but keep in mind that many Fantasy Hero PCs are in the 100-200
point range.
Deadline: We're going to want this material by the end of April (but the
sooner the better).
Let's see those ideas, folks! We know there's an adventure in you! ;)
Btw, we have three solid adventures already -- we're looking for 3 more.
Obviously we can't print everyone's adventure in HA3, but if we get a good
enough reponse from authors we may well publish a second Fantasy Hero
adventure book! Just FYI.
Mark @ GRG
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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:44:57 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Reply-To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Subject: Help with Fantasy Hero, please.
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OK. I have a major favor to ask of somebody on the list.
I picked up a used copy of Fantasy Hero a few weeks ago that
appeared to be complete. Quite bad condition with some coloring inside,
but complete. Well, I've realized that I'm missing two pages (well, one
-- but front and back). I was wondering why there was no included map of
the Western Shores, and found the page edges where I assume that it was.
Anyway, to make a long story short, I'm missing pp 149-150. Does
anyone know an alternate source for the map of the Western Shores?
Alternately, does anyone have the concievable resources to get me the
above information?
Sorry to be a bother, but I really want to see what these lands
I've read about look like.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"John and Ron Prins\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 98 19:49:18
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Time Distortion (was Re: Power Frameworks)
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On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:33:41 -0500 (EST), John and Ron Prins wrote:
>>>1CP FAM w/ Nightstick
>>
>>Isn't this covered in the everyman WF: Clubs?
>
>DOH! It's a loose CP! Quick, grab it! :-)
Hmmm - surely paying the 1 pt would allow him to do things like Disarm
which can't be done with Clubs?
qts
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Tim R. Gilberg\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 98 19:50:52
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Using Stretching as an attack
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On Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:33:28 -0600 (CST), Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> No, I was proposing a change to Missile Deflection. Symantically
>> different than using the theorized "Advantaged Power" advantage. (Of
>> course, in reality, the two are the same. I just didn't want a discussion
>> of "Advantaged." This list constantly contains posts which assume
>> "Advantaged" exists.)
>>
>> Anyway, what did you think of the proposed value: +1/2?
>
> I didn't like it, actually. This is more of a case of damage
>shield or block. Perhaps a damage shield with range would work in this
>case.
How about an Unluck UAO Damage Shield? If the attacker gets N dice of
Unluck, he hits his mate?
qts
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"David Majors\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 98 19:58:41
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: [HERO] Re: Bubble Boy
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On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 06:43:00 -0500 (EST), David Majors wrote:
>
>
>On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, Chris Lea wrote:
>
>> >>...so, how do you model the bubbles? They float on
>> >>their own about a foot above the ground, they are
>> >>bouncy, there is space inside them to move around,
>> >>and they are self-contained.
>>
>> Can I ask what is wrong with using Entangle?
>>
>> Chris
>
>I have always played that you can't move around in an entangle.
But an Entangled character can *be moved*. A nice difference.
qts
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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:12:54 -0600
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions
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X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mars.superlink.net id PAA21861
What about the times he is turned off? He then only exists as patterns of data stored in the computer.
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
On 2/26/98, at 2:01 PM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
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>
>>>>>> "MA" == Michael Adams <Michael.Adams@october.com> writes:
>
>MA> What about a character that is actually a AI unit, who uses something
>MA> similar to Star Trek holodeck technology to interact with normals?
>
>Build him as a normal character with appropriate powers and such. The rest
>is special effects.
>
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>--
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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 16:00:59 -0500 (EST)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
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>Would people agree that there is a general progression of experience
>reflected by cost in the various frameworks?
>
>With a multipower, generally a character can only use one or two powers
>at the same time.
>
>With an Elemental Control, a character can demonstrate their skill by
>performing all their tricks at the same time.
>
>With a Variable Power Pool, a character can demonstrate their mastery
>by doing *anything* [related to the SFX and guided by the Limitations,
>of course].
Actually, unless I want variety, I prefer the EC over the VPP regardless of
the cost. A well concieved character with few limitations can run several
mid-to-high level powers at once in an EC (for example, Icicle - running,
force field, and energy blasts). Try to do the same with a VPP and you have
to scrounge enough limitations to fit the Real Point caps.
EC is a great way to get a lot of 'small' associated powers too. Take a look
at this construct:
7 EC: Fire Invulnerability (15), Only vs Fire/Heat (-1)
7 A.) +20 rED Armor
7 B.) 50% Resistant Energy Damage Reduction
21 points to virtually ignore flame. Added into the 'standard' levels of ED
most compeditive players have (i.e. 15-23), and you can completely ignore
12D6 fire/heat based energy blasts (and often 4D6 Flame RKAs).
Note on a character that had the above construct I added:
12 EC: Flame Powers (15), Requires a Free Oxygen Environment (-1/4)
12 A.) 12rPD, 12rED Force Field, 1/2 END (+1/4)
12 B.) 12" Flight, 1/2 END (+1/4)
28 C.) 10D6 Energy Blast
8 Life Support: Breath in Smoky Environments, Safe in Intense Heat/Cold
5 IR Vision
For a grand total of 98 points in powers. Inexpensive, but certainly
narrow-focussed, and I wouldn't consider it abusive. And I wouldn't trade
this package in for a Multipower or like-costed VPP.
VPPs shine when you need a lot of variety and adaptability. MPs shine when
you need limited variety and power. ECs are probably the most efficient way
of getting a 'set' bunch of powers. I don't think of MP>EC>VPP as being a
logical 'progression' from experience. Maybe MP>VPP, but ECs are sort of
designed for the character that has a 'solidly' defined set of powers.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:06:09 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Using Stretching as an attack
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> > I didn't like it, actually. This is more of a case of damage
> >shield or block. Perhaps a damage shield with range would work in this
> >case.
>
> How about an Unluck UAO Damage Shield? If the attacker gets N dice of
> Unluck, he hits his mate?
Nope. I won't allow disads to be bought as powers. Too much
potential for abuse.
I still say buy a defense with some sort of triggered VSFX attack.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:23:38 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Time Distortion (was Re: Power Frameworks)
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At 08:27 AM 2/26/1998 -0800, Dave Mattingly wrote:
>> 2u 8d Heal Self (2/3 to STUN, 1/3 to END)
>
>This one's a little more difficult to show... Since there's no visible
>effect on normal recovery, I guess this one would have to be bought IPE.
>Any suggestions on visible effects for this one anyone?
A slight "poof" of light around the healed area, perhaps?
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:24:50 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Time Distortion (was Re: Power Frameworks)
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At 11:33 AM 2/26/1998 -0500, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>>4u Clairsentience for sight and touch
>> 360 degree (range = 350")
>
>Heh, heh. Fondle everything in a 700 meter radius?
Only if it's Visible to Touch... ;-]
---
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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:39:57 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Time Distortion (was Re: Power Frameworks)
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> >>Isn't this covered in the everyman WF: Clubs?
> >
> >DOH! It's a loose CP! Quick, grab it! :-)
>
> Hmmm - surely paying the 1 pt would allow him to do things like Disarm
> which can't be done with Clubs?
Sure they can. Martial maneuvers won't work without a Weapon
Element however.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 98 21:44:45
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Aid in a Multipower
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On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 00:58:46 -0600 (CST), Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> Excuse me! Get off the high horse, friend. Especially because
>you are quite flat out wrong unless you are discussiong your own personal
>house rules. When an AID is switched away from a MP slot, the points are
>lost -- plain and simple. This has been made abundantly clear, as many
>have just recently pointed out.
Abundantly clear where? What page of the BBB say this?
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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 16:47:42 -0500 (EST)
From: David Majors <asmodeus@shell.ezy.net>
cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: [HERO] Re: Bubble Boy
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On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, qts wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 06:43:00 -0500 (EST), David Majors wrote:
> >
> >I have always played that you can't move around in an entangle.
>
> But an Entangled character can *be moved*. A nice difference.
> qts
>
True... But, since they are contained in a bubble, the bubble should also
be able to be lifted. Wouldn't the special affect choose if the bubble is
held in space or moveable.
I guess since this item makes the contents float. We might want to add
STR or TK to it to make the contents easy to lift. But, where does the
special affect of the AE flight end. Would you still need the str to lift
it or should the AE flight cover it?
Now, back to the mobility of the bubble and the consequences of force
walls being locked into space...
Does a forcewall stay in place even if it does not have something below it
to hold it against the effects of gravity? Or is this infact determined
by the SE of the power? Has anyone decided this?
Ponder...
David Majors
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Vampires (was Mitch's Dilemma)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:11:15 -0800
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On Wednesday, February 25, 1998 2:13 PM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 04:48 PM 2/25/1998 +0100, Rog wrote:
>>Vlad also had a penchant to impale _anyone_ he considered
undesirable
>>(thieves, beggars, vagrants, foreigners, unwed pregnant women, etc)
>>
>>So while he did reduce crime in his domain, I'm sure he wasn't
worshiped
>>nearly as much as he was thoroughly feared by his people and the
rest of
>>Europe and the Near East.
>
> Crime is rarely a major problem in a land ruled by a ruthless
despot.
> Betcha there's no crime on the Malachite Islands!
Actually, ruthless despotic realms have plenty of crime. However, if
the despot is the "no trial, just shoot them" type, the crime tends to
be black market and gangster stuff, rather than burglaries and
muggings.
Filksinger
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X-Sender: Cypriot@pop3.concentric.net
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:19:21 -0500
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: [HERO] Re: Bubble Boy
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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>>> Can I ask what is wrong with using Entangle?
>>>
>>> Chris
>>
>>I have always played that you can't move around in an entangle.
>
>But an Entangled character can *be moved*. A nice difference.
>qts
>
Not being able to move in an Entangle is more of a House Rule. Our
House Rule states that whether you can move is determined by the
special effect.
For instance, we would allow this bubble thing to be an entangle
where the victim can move, and even use his powers against the
entangle.
An entangle defined as a lariat may only disable the person's arms,
leaving his feet free to run. A bolo might do just the opposite.
Wire mesh might disable a person completely, while slime might just
slow him down.
Each of these would be valid entangles and subject to all the entangle
rules, but attention to the special effect makes it more interesting.
So I wouldn't rule out Entangle for the Bubble Boy if it makes things
more convenient.
******************************************************
Live fast! Love hard! And Die with your mask on!
******************************************************
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: [HERO] Re: Bubble Boy
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:45:25 -0800 (PST)
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> >> >>...so, how do you model the bubbles? They float on
> >> >>their own about a foot above the ground, they are
> >> >>bouncy, there is space inside them to move around,
> >> >>and they are self-contained.
> >>
> >> Can I ask what is wrong with using Entangle?
> >>
> >> Chris
> >
> >I have always played that you can't move around in an entangle.
>
> But an Entangled character can *be moved*. A nice difference.
> qts
One major question here is:
Can more than one person be in the same bubble?
And if they can, are they able to interact?
I'd almost lean towards extra-D movement usable against others, focus
of the bubble. Then telekinesis to move the bubble.
But I think X-D movement might have a rule stating you must come
back at the exact same place you left from. Don't have my BBB near me though.
Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions
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Date: 26 Feb 1998 17:51:30 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "GH" == Guy Hoyle <ghoyle1@airmail.net> writes:
GH> What about the times he is turned off? He then only exists as patterns
GH> of data stored in the computer.
If he is an NPC then it really does not matter; if a PC then the player
probably missed the session. Like I said, most of that is just special
effects.
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X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:20:26 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
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>Has anyone ever considered writing up particularly self-destructive
>powers as disadvantages? For example, a villain in the LSH had the
>unfortunate 'ability' to make all women in her immediate vicinity
>hate her -- she could not turn off or control this power. I would
>write it up like this:
>
>10d6 Mind Control, 0 END+Persistant (+1), AE Radius
>(+1),Continuous(+1), Always On (-1/4), Single Command:"Hate me" (-1),
>Only affects females (-1/2):Total real cost, 72 points(!).
>
>So you'd be asking a character to spend 72 points for a completely
>(or nearly) useless, and often dangerous, power.
Id find a way to buy that as a disadvantage, like Succeptible to women, does
that LOL its not exactly useful, and certainly worth some points...
----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:20:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Daniel R Palacio <dandan@cats.ucsc.edu>
X-Sender: dandan@si.UCSC.EDU
cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
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On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, qts wrote:
> Wasn't it the other way round? If you have a 30 pt EC with 60 pt
> powers, *after* one power had been Drained 30 pts, *then* the other
> powers were affected?
>
You may be right. I dont have the issue handy.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
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Date: 26 Feb 1998 18:27:36 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "L" == Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> writes:
L> 10d6 Mind Control, 0 END+Persistant (+1), AE Radius
L> (+1),Continuous(+1), Always On (-1/4), Single Command:"Hate me" (-1),
L> Only affects females (-1/2):Total real cost, 72 points(!).
Here is a point to remember: things that cost points are advantageous to
the character; things that give points are disadvantageous.
L> So you'd be asking a character to spend 72 points for a completely
L> (or nearly) useless, and often dangerous, power.
Exactly. Which is why I would write it up as, probably, a 20 or 25-point
Physical Limitation, or perhaps a vague Reputation.
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Aid in a Multipower
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:29:30 -0800
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On Wednesday, February 25, 1998 3:32 PM, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>At 04:08 PM 2/25/98 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>>> When you Aid yourself above your starting value somewhere, and
that Aid
>>> was in a multipower, and then you shift to another slot in your
>>> multipower, what happens? (see UMA p.162).
>>
>> You lose the AIDed points, unless they had replaced points lost
>>through other means. (Healing-type AID)
>
>I've often wondered about the logic behind this. Why aren't Drains
in
>Multipowers reversed when the slot is switched?
>
Game Mechanics reason-- Game balance. Aids which maintain after a
Multipower has switched are a major unbalancing factor.
In Game reason-- Any number. I'd lean towards, "Your continuing
increase in STR is maintained by the Aid. If you change the
Multipower, it will no longer maintain you." I'd allow Uncontrolled to
allow for an Aid that doesn't go away.
Filksinger
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From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 98 23:47:30
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Aid in a Multipower
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On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 22:37:32 -0600 (CST), Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> > Excuse me! Get off the high horse, friend. Especially because
>> >you are quite flat out wrong unless you are discussiong your own personal
>> >house rules. When an AID is switched away from a MP slot, the points are
>> >lost -- plain and simple. This has been made abundantly clear, as many
>> >have just recently pointed out.
>>
>> Abundantly clear where? What page of the BBB say this?
>
> Errata and new rules in new releases. This has been stressed as a
>balance measure.
I'm not asking about subsequently released books, a notorious source of inconsistant
rule ideas - I'm asking about the core rules. I've seen no offical errata which mentions
anything about the lingering effects of an Aid vanishing when a MP is shifted. Where
can I find said errata?
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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 18:09:55 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions
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On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Guy Hoyle wrote:
> On 2/26/98, at 2:01 PM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> >>>>>> "MA" == Michael Adams <Michael.Adams@october.com> writes:
> >
> >MA> What about a character that is actually a AI unit, who uses
> >MA> something similar to Star Trek holodeck technology to interact with
> >MA> normals?
> >
> >Build him as a normal character with appropriate powers and such. The
> >rest is special effects.
>
> What about the times he is turned off? He then only exists as patterns
> of data stored in the computer.
Try this approach: cyberspace is, for all intents and purposes, another
dimension; you can travel between the realm of physics and the realm of
data; by creating an "avatar" in the other dimension, which you use
to interact with that dimension. For humans visiting cyberspace, the
"avatars" are also known as "net personas"; for AIs visiting the physical
universe, the "avatars" are holographic constructs. Purchase this as a
variation on Duplication (Transdimensional, as the double is formed in
another reality, and Limited Power: the original loses consciousness for
the duration; or would this be a Side Effect?)
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"
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X-Sender: dalger@thyme.cisco.com
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 16:17:24 -0800
From: Douglas Alger <dalger@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Using Stretching as an attack
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For those curious about my question about using Stretching as an attack...
The 2 GMs in my group ruled I can purchase Missle Reflection with a +1/2
advantage "affects hand to hand attacks." The only restriction is that I
must choose to reflect EITHER ranged attacks OR hand to hand attacks in a
given phase. That keeps my character from sitting back and knocking down
every attack during combat.
We'll see how it plays out.
- Doug
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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 18:47:48 -0600
From: Tim Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
To: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Steve Long's Original Mental Combat Maneuvers
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
O.K, I know it's been a while, but I was just able to scare up
file with Long's Mental Combat Maneuvers. Without further ado:
MENTAL COMBAT MANEUVERS CHART
Maneuver Cost Phs OECV DECV Notes
Basic Maneuvers
Covered 0 1/2 -2 +0 Target held at "mindpoint;"
see below
Dive For Cover 0 1/2 +0 +0 Move character; Abort; see
below
Ego Evade 0 1/2 -- +3 "Dodge" mental attacks;
Abort
Mental Haymaker 0 1/2+1 -1 -4 x1.5 Ego Attack before
Pushing
Mind Bar 0 1/2 +0 +0 "Block" mental attacks;
requires same power; Abort
Mind Strike 0 1/2 +0 +0 1d6 Ego Attack
Placed Shots 0 n/a -2 OECV/+1 DC w/Ego Attack,
maximum -8 OECV, +4 DC
Rapid Fire 0 1 -2 x1/2 Attack multiple targets in
ranged combat
Resist 0 1 +0 +0 +2 to Breakout Roll, Abort
Set 0 1/2 +1 +0
Snap Shot 0 1 -1 +0 Lets character duck back
behind cover; see below
Suppression Fire 0 1 -2 +0 Continuous fire on hex(es),
must have Autofire
Advanced Maneuvers
Cerebral Assault 4 1/2 -1 -1 2d6 NND (Power Defense)
Ego Crush 5 1/2 -2 +1 Ego Attack +4 DC
Ego Siphon 4 1/2 -1 -1 2d6 EGO Drain
Ego Strike 4 1/2 +1 +1 Ego Attack +2 DC
Mental Lock 4 1/2 -2 -2 "Disarm" mental power for
1d6 Segments; requires same
power
Mind Block 4 1/2 +2 +2 "Block" mental attacks;
requires same power; Abort
Mind Destruction 5 1/2 -2 -2 1/2d6 RKA
Mind Evade 4 1/2 -- +5 "Dodge" mental attacks;
Abort
+1 Damage Class 4
I personally haven't used them yet, but do think that
they are more useful than the ones included in TUM. Anyone else?
-Tim Gilberg
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X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 18:48:26 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Masochistic project du jour
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I've always found the optional Language Chart in the BBB a good idea, but a
bit of a pain to use. If you're only picking up one or two extra
languages, no big deal. If your character speaks a dozen, there's the
prospect of discounts for related languages, free points for very closely
related ones, etc. No, the math isn't hard. No, it doesn't require a
calculator. But for a large number of languages it can still be hairy.
This afternoon I started plugging all these cost relationships into a
spreadsheet. In fairly short order I got all the easy ones out of the way,
but some of what's left will be trickier because multiple cost
relationships, in different box types, exist for a single language in
several cases. Before I trouble myself to do the harder parts and finish
this, I thought I'd better ask: has this already been done? Ideally as a
stand alone utility program, but even as part of HeroMaker or Character
Creator of whatever those character generators are called?
It's not nearly complete yet, but for the languages it does cover so far,
you type in Points Spent for each one, and any free points for closely
related languages (in Yiddish, for example, when you buy German) are
indicated, as are cost breaks for languages with two or three points of
similarity and languages against which you get to make an INT roll to
understand phrases, if you've bought something with three points of
similarity.
Damon
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not only does the English Language borrow words from other languages,
it sometimes chases them down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and
goes through their pockets.
-- Eddy Peters
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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 19:13:27 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Used HERO for sale
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
A local bookstore has a large selection of used Hero system material. I'm
sure much of what's listed below is still in print and/or available from
herogames.com, but if you see something you need, let me know:
HERO?? Enemies $3.95
HERO08 Champions II $4.95
HERO14 Trail of the Gold Spike $1.95
HERO15 Champions III $4.95
HERO25 Hero System Bestiary $5.00
HERO27 Robot Warriors $7.95
409 Invasion From Below $3.95
416 Classic Organizations $9.00
418 Champions Presents $7.00
421 Champions Universe $9.00
423 Dark Champions $9.95
423 Dark Champions $10.00
425 VIPER $7.95
427 Allies $6.50
431 Underworld Enemies $8.00
450 BBB (softcover)
500 Hero System Rulebook $9.98 (softcover)
502 Fantasy Hero $9.98
502 Fantasy Hero $9.95
503 FH Companion $7.50
505 Cyber Hero $9.95
506 FH Companion II $8.00
GRG100 Heroic Adventures I $9.00
Prices don't include local 7.75% sales tax or what it would cost me to ship
it to you.
Damon
-----------------------
Money is the root of all evil, and yet it is such a useful root that
we cannot get on without it any more than we can without potatoes.
-- Louisa May Alcott
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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 19:24:06 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions
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On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Dave Mattingly wrote:
> Michael Adams asks:
> >What about a character that is actually a AI unit, who uses something
> >similar to Star Trek holodeck technology to interact with normals?
> >Based on something like a ghost, but what about the times the character
> >is inside a computer network?
>
> I'd build the character as an actual AI (computer with EGO) that has TK
> and Images.
Don't forget Flight (if the CPU is mobile) or Clairvoyance (if not)...
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"
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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 20:02:08 -0600 (CST)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
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On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Christopher Taylor wrote:
> >Has anyone ever considered writing up particularly self-destructive
> >powers as disadvantages? For example, a villain in the LSH had the
> >unfortunate 'ability' to make all women in her immediate vicinity
> >hate her -- she could not turn off or control this power. I would
> >write it up like this:
> >
> >10d6 Mind Control, 0 END+Persistant (+1), AE Radius
> >(+1),Continuous(+1), Always On (-1/4), Single Command:"Hate me" (-1),
> >Only affects females (-1/2):Total real cost, 72 points(!).
> >
> >So you'd be asking a character to spend 72 points for a completely
> >(or nearly) useless, and often dangerous, power.
Phys Lim: Hated by women. Frequent, Greatly Impairing, 15 points.
8)
J
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 21:48:04 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Time Distortion (was Re: Power Frameworks)
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At 08:27 AM 2/26/98 -0800, Dave Mattingly wrote:
>Joe Mucchiello [why@superlink.net] said:
>>All of these powers need Invisible Power Effects. No one can see
>>him doing these powers while time is stopped. IPE is the part
>>about Time Manipulators that makes them cost prohibitive.
>Visible effects just mean that anyone with sight can obviously tell
>who's using the power, and probably what the power is. Not all time
>distorters have to have invisible effects.
Actually, there have to be three senses affected. You've described sight,
you might be able to say high-frequency hearing as well, what's the third?
My other problem with this is, why does he always return to where he started?
Joe
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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 19:22:46 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: Area Effect HA]
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
> >To repeat a question that I know I have asked before, but to which I have
> >never gotten an answer: WHERE IS THIS RULE? I can't find it anywhere,
> >even though I and everyone I know uses it.
>
> Hm, I may need to fire up the barbecue and pull some crow out of the
> freezer, because I've just looked through the BBB and TUMA and couldn't
> find that. It may be a 3rd Edition rule that didn't carry forward. In
> fact, TUMA says on page 156 that you can add STR up to the base points in
> HA, and let that value add only base dice with the Explosion (or other
> Advantage, except Invisible Power Effects) for free.
If you have a look at the example weapons towards the back of the book,
you will find that weapons that have +1 stun or AP (+1/2 advantage) add 1
damage class per 7.5 strength. I can't actually find it in the book, but I am
sure that I have seen it written in 4th edition that you have to "buy" the
advantage off with strength.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 19:34:06 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Aid in a Multipower
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-- Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> Excuse me! Get off the high horse, friend. Especially because
> you are quite flat out wrong unless you are discussiong your own personal
> house rules. When an AID is switched away from a MP slot, the points are
> lost -- plain and simple. This has been made abundantly clear, as many
> have just recently pointed out.
I feel like I came waaaay too late in a long running argument. I'm
fairly conversent with the BBB and I don't remember seeing anywhere where it
says anything about loosing the effects of an aid if the power points are
switched away. Aid, as far as I remember has a fade rate, as does drain and
transfer. This is purchased at the same time as the power and doesn't change.
If you say switching the points away in a multipower cancels the power,
what if the person who did an aid with a long discharge time earlier in a combat
gets knocked out or killed? Does the effects of the aid disappear?
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 22:37:32 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Aid in a Multipower
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> > Excuse me! Get off the high horse, friend. Especially because
> >you are quite flat out wrong unless you are discussiong your own personal
> >house rules. When an AID is switched away from a MP slot, the points are
> >lost -- plain and simple. This has been made abundantly clear, as many
> >have just recently pointed out.
>
> Abundantly clear where? What page of the BBB say this?
Errata and new rules in new releases. This has been stressed as a
balance measure.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:41:54 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
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At 06:27 PM 2/26/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>>>>> "L" == Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> writes:
>
>L> 10d6 Mind Control, 0 END+Persistant (+1), AE Radius
>L> (+1),Continuous(+1), Always On (-1/4), Single Command:"Hate me" (-1),
>L> Only affects females (-1/2):Total real cost, 72 points(!).
Always On is -1/2. Single command is -1/2 according to the BBB. You should
also have Telepathic for +1/4 (or does he just mutter "Hate me" a lot? :-)
I might allow females only to be -1 unless the male/female proportion is
particularly different in the campaign world. My version is 66 points.
Also, proximity effects like this are better modelled with Explosion the AE
Radius but who knows maybe the compulsion just hits at exactly 10 hexes.
Rat:
>Here is a point to remember: things that cost points are advantageous to
>the character; things that give points are disadvantageous.
>
>L> So you'd be asking a character to spend 72 points for a completely
>L> (or nearly) useless, and often dangerous, power.
>
>Exactly. Which is why I would write it up as, probably, a 20 or 25-point
>Physical Limitation, or perhaps a vague Reputation.
So, what about the PhysLim causes the women to actually hate him? What if
a woman wants to like him? The Mind Control would prevent that unless she
had enough EGO to overcome the compulsion. PhysLim does not work that way.
Why not allow powers as Disadvantages (with a big Stop Sign)? I'd use real
cost / 5. In this case it would be 13 points (66/5 = 13.2). YMMV. And
yes, I would allow personal immunity and all of the other abusive things
that someone might try to pull. The GM's job is to make a power bought in
this way a disadvantage.
Joe
Joe
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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:47:47 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Aid in a Multipower
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At 03:29 PM 2/26/98 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>On Wednesday, February 25, 1998 3:32 PM, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>>At 04:08 PM 2/25/98 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>>>> When you Aid yourself above your starting value somewhere, and
>that Aid
>>>> was in a multipower, and then you shift to another slot in your
>>>> multipower, what happens? (see UMA p.162).
>>>
>>> You lose the AIDed points, unless they had replaced points lost
>>>through other means. (Healing-type AID)
>>
>>I've often wondered about the logic behind this. Why aren't Drains
>in
>>Multipowers reversed when the slot is switched?
>>
>Game Mechanics reason-- Game balance. Aids which maintain after a
>Multipower has switched are a major unbalancing factor.
>
>In Game reason-- Any number. I'd lean towards, "Your continuing
>increase in STR is maintained by the Aid. If you change the
>Multipower, it will no longer maintain you." I'd allow Uncontrolled to
>allow for an Aid that doesn't go away.
I understand the reasons. I just don't like this inconsistency. (I've
wandered into the meta-game realm. For those who don't like those
discussions, please employ your mailer's "next message" function now.) If
Aid is "turned off" when the slot switches, then Drain and Transfer should
turn off. The problem I have is that a continuous, uncontrolled effect is
being created and based on the way other powers work, it should not "turn
off".
Mind Control and Mental Illusions don't go away, Flashes senses remain
flashed, damage taken remains unhealed, the Entangle still holds, the
transformation victim remains an anvil, summoned being remain in existance,
dispelled powers don't automatically turn back on, why do adjustment powers
"turn off" when the multipower slot is switched?
All of the powers I'm talking about are instant powers. All of these
instant powers cause Continuous, Uncontrolled effects to come into
existance. Now of the other two Instant powers I didn't mention above,
Mind Scan, actually talks about what happens when the power is switched in
a MP. Telepathy is the only different indeterminate Instant power. I
believe it would stop working because it is one of the few Instant powers
which does not create an Uncontrolled effect. The command of a Mind
Control or image of a Mental Illusion can last for days but once the
character is stops using the Telepathy, the link between mentalist and
victim is broken.
As a final note: Does someone who receives an Aid from character X lose
the boosted characteristic if X dies before the Aid fades? If yes, then
how about the entangle? Or the transform? Or summon? Or dispel, etc, ad
nauseum. Aid being disabled by switching a Multipower slot is inconsistent.
Thanks for listening,
Joe
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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 22:53:45 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
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> First off, I do want to mention that, yes, I have built an EC with only
> characteristics in it. Abusive, I admit, but it simulates his ability to
> 'accelerate' time within his own personal 'envelope', making him act at
> twice the rate of the real world. Because of this, Velocitor gets free
> recoveries at post-phase 6 as well as post-phase 12, but at 1/2 his total
> REC. The way this works, he still only gets his total REC once per turn, but
> it's split up into two recoveries. Normal, phase-taking recoveries operate
> at his baseline REC, not his 'power' REC.
So buy the characteristics outside of the EC. It's quite legal.
You just won't be quite so powerful.
> Secondly, I did a couple of 'power, not the power' things with
> Desolidification and Teleport. These simulate his ability to 'stop time' and
> get out of harm's way. If he could not normally reach his destination with
> running/leaping (Teleport) or avoid the attack (dodge/dive for cover) he
> still gets hit (Desolidification). Velocitor doesn't completely stop time
> when he uses these powers, but it's close.
I think the TPort will be more accepted than the Desol, but I like
and would use both constructions.
> 10CP Elemental Control: Temporal Acceleration Envelope (15), Only to Double
> 'Natural' Attributes (-1/4), Visible (-1/4)
> 12CP A.)+15 DEX, No Figured Characteristics (-1/2), No Skill Adds (-1/2)
> 10CP B.)+3 SPD
Nope, there ain't no way I'm allowing 75 points of characteristics
to be bought for 32 points. And the "visible" has to go as well, it
already is.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 22:55:32 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: DC maxima
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> It's not my opinion so much as it's my interpretation. You can like the
> 50-60 ranged and 50-80 HTH feel if you want to. I don't think that's a bad
> thing at all, and that level really is quite enjoyable. Me, I like the
> 50-60 range for most attacks, with "desperation attacks" of 14-20 dice
> (depending on what kind of restrictions and Limitations are attached). I'm
> just saying that 40-50 to start is what the Hero Guys apparently intended.
And I'm saying that, besides all the examples being 50-60, this
results in too low a feel in terms of effect. Especially on the
surroundings.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 21:13:20 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
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Hash: SHA1
At 11:41 PM 2/26/98 -0500, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>At 06:27 PM 2/26/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>>>>>> "L" == Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> writes:
>>
>>L> 10d6 Mind Control, 0 END+Persistant (+1), AE Radius
>>L> (+1),Continuous(+1), Always On (-1/4), Single Command:"Hate me"
(-1),
>>L> Only affects females (-1/2):Total real cost, 72 points(!).
>Always On is -1/2. Single command is -1/2 according to the BBB. You
should
>also have Telepathic for +1/4 (or does he just mutter "Hate me" a
lot? :-)
>I might allow females only to be -1 unless the male/female
proportion is
>particularly different in the campaign world. My version is 66
points.
>
>Also, proximity effects like this are better modelled with Explosion
the AE
>Radius but who knows maybe the compulsion just hits at exactly 10
hexes.
>
Explosion would be better in this case, but that's a minor point.
>Rat:
>>Here is a point to remember: things that cost points are
advantageous to
>>the character; things that give points are disadvantageous.
>>
>>L> So you'd be asking a character to spend 72 points for a
completely
>>L> (or nearly) useless, and often dangerous, power.
>>
>>Exactly. Which is why I would write it up as, probably, a 20 or 25-
point
>>Physical Limitation, or perhaps a vague Reputation.
>
>So, what about the PhysLim causes the women to actually hate him?
What if
>a woman wants to like him? The Mind Control would prevent that
unless she
>had enough EGO to overcome the compulsion. PhysLim does not work
that way.
>
Exactly. Further, a physical limitation doesn't let a third party try
to resist it, nor can it be dispelled/suppressed (as this characters
powers could be), etc.
>Why not allow powers as Disadvantages (with a big Stop Sign)? I'd
use real
>cost / 5. In this case it would be 13 points (66/5 = 13.2). YMMV.
And
>yes, I would allow personal immunity and all of the other abusive
things
>that someone might try to pull. The GM's job is to make a power
bought in
>this way a disadvantage.
>
The problem here is that there will often not be a menaingful
relationship between the point cost of the power and the
inconvenience it causes. I've been thinking about this, and here is
my solution:
a)The 'dangerous' power is written up.
b)The PC pays 0 points for the power.
c)The PC takes the Disadvantage:Dangerous Power, which is valued as:
5 points:The power is a minor nuiscance
10 points:The power is severely limiting
15 points:The power directly endangers the character on a regular
basis
20 points:The power is potentially fatal to the character.
If the power has useful applications, -5 points.
If the power is also dangerous to the characters friends and allies,
+5 points.
By having the actual power written up in game terms, it allows it
correctly affect PCs and NPCs, be dispelled/suppressed/defended
against, etc.
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 00:29:56 -0500
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From: Grant Enfield <genfield@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
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At 04:00 PM 2/26/98 -0500, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>VPPs shine when you need a lot of variety and adaptability. MPs shine when
>you need limited variety and power. ECs are probably the most efficient way
>of getting a 'set' bunch of powers. I don't think of MP>EC>VPP as being a
>logical 'progression' from experience. Maybe MP>VPP, but ECs are sort of
>designed for the character that has a 'solidly' defined set of powers.
Exactly.
Most characters I build have both frameworks. Powers you want on at the
same time (movement and defense) put in your Elemental Control. Powers you
use one at a time (attacks [especially those that represent different
flavors or shapes of the same attack], and attack-roll-requiring tricks) put
in your MP. VPPs seem to be simply MPs with infinite slots, and I
discourage them in my campaign.
A common way I build energy projectors (any character that flies fast and
shoots lots) is to use an EC with Flight, Force Field, and any special
defenses like damage shields or damage reduction only versus the EPs sfx.
The character I also build with a MP to incorporate the various flavors of
their blast (AP, reduced END, NND), extra flight, extra force field, extra
damage shield dice, and any tricks for the character's sfx.
Though occasionally I have built characters with large MPs rather than an EC
plus a MP, the MP generally complements the EC. It's as if the EC
represents the basic abilities while the MP sits on top and adds extra
features.
grant
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 00:40:46 -0500 (EST)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
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>> First off, I do want to mention that, yes, I have built an EC with only
>> characteristics in it. Abusive, I admit, but it simulates his ability to
>> 'accelerate' time within his own personal 'envelope', making him act at
>> twice the rate of the real world. Because of this, Velocitor gets free
>> recoveries at post-phase 6 as well as post-phase 12, but at 1/2 his total
>> REC. The way this works, he still only gets his total REC once per turn, but
>> it's split up into two recoveries. Normal, phase-taking recoveries operate
>> at his baseline REC, not his 'power' REC.
>
> So buy the characteristics outside of the EC. It's quite legal.
>You just won't be quite so powerful.
Actually, Characteristics in an EC is 'legal', provided GM permission is gained.
It does satisfy the criteria for an EC - they have common special effects.
>> 10CP Elemental Control: Temporal Acceleration Envelope (15), Only to Double
>> 'Natural' Attributes (-1/4), Visible (-1/4)
>> 12CP A.)+15 DEX, No Figured Characteristics (-1/2), No Skill Adds (-1/2)
>> 10CP B.)+3 SPD
>
> Nope, there ain't no way I'm allowing 75 points of characteristics
>to be bought for 32 points. And the "visible" has to go as well, it
>already is.
Let's see:
+15 DEX w/ -1 1/2 limitations: 20 points
+3 SPD w/ -1/2 limitations: 20 points
All I'm saving is 8 points with the EC. Since ECs are there to reward
unified concepts, I don't think an extra 20% savings (8 out of 40) is
abusive, especially if you treat ECs as a 'single power' for the purposes of
Adjustment Powers.
And DEX and SPD are not per se 'Visible'. When Velocitor uses his 'extra'
DEX and SPD he is _visibly_ using a 'power' - there are SFX in place that
look a lot like what could be a force field. You can tell when Velocitor is
'sped up' and when he isn't. He couldn't use the extra DEX and SPD without
effectively announcing that he has superhuman powers. Call it OIHID if you
like, I think 'visible' describes it better.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 00:40:58 -0500 (EST)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Aid in a Multipower
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>As a final note: Does someone who receives an Aid from character X lose
>the boosted characteristic if X dies before the Aid fades? If yes, then
>how about the entangle? Or the transform? Or summon? Or dispel, etc, ad
>nauseum. Aid being disabled by switching a Multipower slot is inconsistent.
Very true. This whole 'aid disappears if the slot switches' is an SFX issue
unique to the C'hi Aid multipower IMHO. It nicely simulates the character
swapping around his 'internal energy' to where it's needed, but has a
limited supply at any one time.
It certainly does not fit other SFX. What about someone who has a drug
multipower SFX? The effects of one drug does not necessarily go away when
you introduce another one. And the effect of an Aid on another should
certainly be independant of the player once used - I certainly don't think a
character can 'cancel' an Aid once it's been given to another.
Simply put, this is a rule that should only apply to specific SFX and
campaign styles; martial arts as presented in NH and TUMA are pretty strict
about allowing frameworks in the first place, so this 'new restriction'
doesn't provide any Limitation. It should not be a 'general' Champions rule.
And what about Aids in a VPP? TUMA makes no mention of these, but the same
'logic' would have to apply, wouldn't it?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 00:44:11 -0500
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From: Grant Enfield <genfield@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Using Stretching as an attack
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At 04:17 PM 2/26/98 -0800, Douglas Alger wrote:
>
>For those curious about my question about using Stretching as an attack...
>
>The 2 GMs in my group ruled I can purchase Missle Reflection with a +1/2
>advantage "affects hand to hand attacks." The only restriction is that I
>must choose to reflect EITHER ranged attacks OR hand to hand attacks in a
>given phase. That keeps my character from sitting back and knocking down
>every attack during combat.
>
>We'll see how it plays out.
I watched this thread for a while. If you have Stretching, you should be
able to Block at range, right? Why not just do that? Unless it's the
redirect you're really interested in, but I don't know how you'd redirect a
hand-to-hand attack in one phase like that. I know the movies are replete
with it.
It seems to me that Missile Deflection is simply Block used against missile
attacks, so why not use plain, garden-variety Block against hand attacks?
This also brings up another point relating to that
Missile-Deflection-and-arrows-falling-on-the-ground-to-then-hurt-innocent-li
ttle-girls-who-happen-to-stroll-by thread: No one worries about what
happens to Blocked attacks and whom they might hit, do they? Or what
innocent bystander a disarmed character's weapon might injure? Since
Missile Deflection, as I observe, is simply Block against missile attacks,
we shouldn't worry where those deflected missiles go, should we?
grant
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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:49:30 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
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[Dangerous Power rules snipped]
> By having the actual power written up in game terms, it allows it
> correctly affect PCs and NPCs, be dispelled/suppressed/defended
Nice, but couldn't this be a offshoot of a enhanced Suceptability?
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com>
Subject: Visible? (was Power Frameworks)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:54:36 -0600
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>> 10CP Elemental Control: Temporal Acceleration Envelope (15), Only to
Double
>> 'Natural' Attributes (-1/4), Visible (-1/4)
>> 12CP A.)+15 DEX, No Figured Characteristics (-1/2), No Skill Adds (-1/2)
>> 10CP B.)+3 SPD
>
> Nope, there ain't no way I'm allowing 75 points of characteristics
>to be bought for 32 points. And the "visible" has to go as well, it
>already is.
I understand your reticence regarding the use of an EC in this way, but why
wouldn't the visible limitation be any good. Anything that doesn't normally
use END doesn't have to have a special effect. The Visible limitation is
valid for any power that doesn't use END normally.
Alan
-- --
Tagline, invisible due to lack of endurance.
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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 21:57:04 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 11:49 PM 2/26/98 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
> [Dangerous Power rules snipped]
>
>> By having the actual power written up in game terms, it allows it
>> correctly affect PCs and NPCs, be dispelled/suppressed/defended
>
> Nice, but couldn't this be a offshoot of a enhanced Suceptability?
>
Uhm...but in this particular case, the people affected by the power
aren't the character. How would you write it up as a susceptability?
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com>
Subject: Re: Time Distortion (was Re: Power Frameworks)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 00:00:49 -0600
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Dave Mattingly wrote:
>> 2u 8d Heal Self (2/3 to STUN, 1/3 to END)
>
>This one's a little more difficult to show... Since there's no visible
>effect on normal recovery, I guess this one would have to be bought IPE.
>Any suggestions on visible effects for this one anyone?
If visible wounds are involved the simple vanishing of those wounds can
count as a visible special effect. Since it is STUN and END restoration the
stretch is a bit bigger. You could say that the character suddenly looks
noticeably refreshed. As long as it is noticed and visible you can use it
as a visible special effect.
Alan
I feel good...... I knew that I would.......
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Power Frameworks
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:32:37 -0800
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On Wednesday, February 25, 1998 4:23 PM, Richard G Schwerdtfeger
wrote:
>Daniel Palacio wrote:
>>(Comments about Wolverine and Spidey, who I would build with ECs,
snipped)
>
>Now, I can see putting Superman's abilities in an EC (although it is
a
>stretch) because they are all based on him being a solar battery
(well,
>post-Crisis, at least).
>
>I can also imagine Spidey having an EC with Superleap, Clinging, and
>his Spidey Sense (though that would be a GM call).
>
>But Wolverine? The only things that I could possibly get him a EC
bonus
>would be his metallic skeleton/claws, giving him additional PD (or
>PD Damage Resistance) and an HKA. His other abilities are seemingly
random:
>Regeneration and Tracking Scent. Plus lots of skills and Martial
Arts.
>What would go in his EC?
Added BODY, Damage Reduction, and his HKA, I suppose.
Filksinger
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Bubble-Boy
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:35:18 -0800
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On Wednesday, February 25, 1998 4:57 PM, Daniel R Palacio wrote:
>On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, THE MAD HARLEQUIN wrote:
>
>> BubbleBoy can create bubbles to capture foes so his opponents
>> can carry their comrades back to their evil-space hoarde on the
planet.
>> Nonxe...
>
>> ...so, how do you model the bubbles? They float on their own about
>> a foot above the ground, they are bouncy, there is space inside
them to move
>> around, and they are self-contained.
>
>> ...in addition, they defend against attacks rather well, and can be
>> dispelled at will by BubbleBoy...
>
> My guess would be a Continuous, uncontrolled Force wall linked to
>Continuous, Uncontrolled UAO Flight and Continuous, Uncontrolled UAO
Life
>Support, but Damn if it wouldn't be expensive.
Since he can dispel them at will, Uncontrolled would either be
inappropriate, or he would have to have a powerful Dispel, as well.
Filksinger
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 00:39:54 -0800
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On Thursday, February 26, 1998 10:03 AM, Lizard wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>Has anyone ever considered writing up particularly self-destructive
>powers as disadvantages? For example, a villain in the LSH had the
>unfortunate 'ability' to make all women in her immediate vicinity
>hate her -- she could not turn off or control this power. I would
>write it up like this:
>
>10d6 Mind Control, 0 END+Persistant (+1), AE Radius
>(+1),Continuous(+1), Always On (-1/4), Single Command:"Hate me" (-1),
>Only affects females (-1/2):Total real cost, 72 points(!).
>
>So you'd be asking a character to spend 72 points for a completely
>(or nearly) useless, and often dangerous, power.
>
>OTOH, giving her -88 points seems overly generous.
>
>I would think some sort of Physical Limitation is in order here, but
>I think it ought to be somehow modelled or based on the nature of the
>'bad' power (the above is only one example -- I'm sure people can
>think of many 'powers' that are not things you want to have). Some
>sort of Active Point formula, perhaps? Ideas?
How about Hunted by all women who get near her?:)
Filksinger
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 00:47:27 -0800
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On Thursday, February 26, 1998 5:28 PM, Sakura wrote:
<snip>
>Phys Lim: Hated by women. Frequent, Greatly Impairing, 15 points.
>
>8)
>
Distinctive Features, hated by women, causes fear and loathing, only
affects women (1/4).
Filksinger
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 03:28:09 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Organization: Satan's Children
Subject: Re: Bubble-Boy
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THE MAD HARLEQUIN wrote:
>
> BubbleBoy can create bubbles to capture foes so his opponents
> can carry their comrades back to their evil-space hoarde on the planet.
> Nonxe...
>
> ...so, how do you model the bubbles? They float on their own about
> a foot above the ground, they are bouncy, there is space inside them to move
> around, and they are self-contained.
>
> ...in addition, they defend against attacks rather well, and can be
> dispelled at will by BubbleBoy...
I saw only one other respondent with this idea, but I think it is the
most simple and elegant way to do it. ENTANGLE.
There are several limitations available to entangle to customize it
to resemble a 'force bubble'; perhaps a large ENT with 1 BODY and
backlash? The entangle will defend against attacks just as well as any
force field/wall, and it's simply SFX to allow room to move about
inside; nobody ever said entangles HAVE to be physically restricting.
Perhaps add a limitation that Foci CAN be used to escape, or say that
the 'inner environment' somehow mystically prevents such.
The floating above the ground could be a linked (AAHHH!!) persistent
(or at least 0END) TK; only to float/follow BubbleBoy (-?).
But here's the genius, though it is not strictly By the Book, at
least not DIRECTLY.... Buy Personal immunity on the ENT. Why? Follow
me; I'll show you.
Technically, Personal Immunity allows BubbleBoy to be immune to his
own BubbleEntangles. The SFX would be to make them dissappear at will.
Well, it follows that he should be able to do the same thing when
somebody ELSE is in one. This may be a stretch, but also consider that
Personal Immunity is of limited use in this instance, so to compensate
(make the points spent worthwhile) the trade off is his ability to
*poof* the bubbles from anyone. Also consider that this is probably as
advantageous to his foes as to him.
The mechanic of Entangle also allows for multiple bubbles at once;
Once an Entangle is launched, it stays around until broken or otherwise
dispelled.
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 07:17:59 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Used HERO for sale follow-up
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Work with me, guys!
I'm getting replies to the list of used Hero products I posted with
questions I can't readily answer. Please don't ask me how much postage
will be. You know as much about U.S. Postal rates as I do. I can send
anything you want using Book Rate, which should be the cheapest, but that's
all I can tell you. If you indicate you may want several items and ask how
much postage will cost, how am I supposed to know? You haven't actually
said how many items or which ones, so even if I thought I needed to
estimate mailing costs this far in advance, there'd be no way for me to do it.
As to quality of the used items, well, it's like this: the day I made this
list I arrived at the book store 10 minutes before closing and was pretty
rushed just writing down titles and prices. I certainly didn't have time
to individually grade two dozen items for quality, which would have been an
entirely subjective judgement anyway. I didn't notice anything that was
badly beat up, torn, etc. If you want to try to give me some grading
criteria, I'll check each book against that before I buy it, but I do not
want to make half a dozen "just checking" trips back to the store, which is
not in my part of town. (San Antonio isn't that big a city, nothing's
*too* far away, it's just that the Book Den is in an area my usual errands
take me to only infrequently.)
If I weren't willing to go pick up all this stuff, ship it out and be
reimbursed for cost, I wouldn't have posted the list in the first place.
But please don't make it a lot of extra work for me. Thanks.
Damon
--------------------
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
-- Voltaire
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Time Distortion (was Re: Power Frameworks)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 06:00:38 -0800
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I said:
>Visible effects just mean that anyone with sight can obviously tell
>who's using the power, and probably what the power is. Not all time
>distorters have to have invisible effects.
Joe Mucchiello [why@superlink.net] replied:
>Actually, there have to be three senses affected. You've described
sight,
>you might be able to say high-frequency hearing as well, what's the
third?
How about... Absolute Time Sense?
Actually, I might go with smell or IR, since the use of his powers heats
him up (says so in his vulnerability to fire/heat attacks). Or perhaps
spatial awareness (since he warps time) or an unusual dimensional sense.
>My other problem with this is, why does he always return to where he
started?
His special effect is that he can only move one item at a time. If he
moves a bullet or a person, he can't move himself. It's just the way
that his time-freeze works.
Dave Mattingly
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 9:48:09 -0500
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions
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Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> wrote:
>>>>> "GH" == Guy Hoyle <ghoyle1@airmail.net> writes:
GH> What about the times he is turned off? He then only exists as pa
tterns
GH> of data stored in the computer.
If he is an NPC then it really does not matter; if a PC then the player
probably missed the session. Like I said, most of that is just special
effects.
***************************
You're assuming "turned off" means not there for the session -
but what if it's a crucial point in the action? If the AI is
vulnerable to being turned off by an enemy, or has reason at
some times to act within the computer, rather than as a projection,
it will be useful to have some representation of these things in
game mechanics.
The special effects approach works adequately if you're only
concerned about the projection functioning in hand-to-hand combat.
But the situation could easily get a lot more complicated than
that. If you're a B5 fan, think of the Garibaldi simulation in
"The Deconstruction of Falling Stars" - while his projection stood
around and chatted, the program sabotaged an oppressive government's
military defenses. Think of any situation where the AI is doing
something crucial - like figuring out a mystery - with the
projection inactive. Or conflicts in Virtual Reality. Or physical
attacks vs. the computer rather than the projection.
Sure, you could handle these things as "special effects" - but
only because you can improvise *anything* in an RPG without
bothering with the rules. Rules exist to establish a framework
for complicated sets of possibities, and it seems to me that a
holographic AI could easily merit a detailed rules construction.
While a Spirit construction would still be my first choice,
another idea just struck me. If the character engages in
both real-world and Virtual Reality encounters, Interdimensional
Travel could work.
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Undefinable Location (Re: Time Distortion (was Re: Power Frameworks))
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 07:13:34 -0800 (PST)
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> Actually, there have to be three senses affected. You've described sight,
> you might be able to say high-frequency hearing as well, what's the third?
>
You know, almost all powers seem hard to define on that 'third'
sense. Personally as a GM I've never been to hard on this and just use
common sense of the moment to judge it.
> My other problem with this is, why does he always return to where he started?
>
This got me thinking on another issue. How to reflect the super who
occupies not one point in space, put a constantly changing point within a
given area.
For offense this is easy. By all hth items you have with area
effect.
For defense it gets a bit trickier.
I see two things in combination:
1)
First. get several skill levels in DCV defined as may not actually
be at the point that was attacked.
2)
Second get a phys lim that says that the character can be targeted
in any location within a radius of X of where the game places your 'official'
location.
This needs a way to work against any
area effect attack which has a smaller radius than the radius of your own
existance, as long as that area effect attack's effects last for a duration
shorter than the time it takes for you to move between two points in
your radius.
So tachyon boy exists in a random location within a 6 hex radius
and 'jumps' in space randomly within this location every 1 nano second.
His DCV bonus would not help vs. a kinetic explosion which takes
longer than 1ns to spread, however a 'cosmic light web pulse' which functions
to blast everything in a 3 hex radius at the speed of light is so short in
time that he may actualy never jump into it's radius; thus his DCV bonus
should work on it to reflect that he may or may not be within it's effects
when it hits.
However, I don't think DCV levels will work on an area effect, so
for those a 'dive for cover' levels may be needed with the limitation above
Rook
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 07:28:28 -0800 (PST)
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> >
> >L> So you'd be asking a character to spend 72 points for a completely
> >L> (or nearly) useless, and often dangerous, power.
> >
> >Exactly. Which is why I would write it up as, probably, a 20 or 25-point
> >Physical Limitation, or perhaps a vague Reputation.
>
> So, what about the PhysLim causes the women to actually hate him? What if
> a woman wants to like him? The Mind Control would prevent that unless she
> had enough EGO to overcome the compulsion. PhysLim does not work that way.
>
Why not?
I'd write it up as a Phys Lim and a hunted/watched.
Define the special effect as you want. I see no reason why I can't include
a blanket statement in a disad that defines how all others must react to
a given character.
It may not feel right to some to force another character's actions in
this way. But it's mechanicly the cleanest option.
After all, I could "Hunted: Viper, 14-" as a disad and you could make
the argument that it's not valid cause I'm forcing Viper to hunt me. After all
what if they don't want to? So we have in this an example where we are forcing
Viper's actions in a character who is not Viper without using:
Mind Control:
Hunt Me, Viper members only, area effect extra radius (the world), 10d6
Which is technically what the Hunted disad does.
Not to mention:
EB:
3d6 continous, usable against others "to make them blast me", can
only be used by glowing green rocks, and only I can be the target,
linked to tranformation.
Tranform:
1000d6 major tranform, glowing green rocks into automaton with a 12
speed. (So it has actions to use the EB with).
Which is technically what a susc is...
Then their's
AID:
100d6 aid, only enough to double attack dice of any "Ice Powers" attack
usable against others, area effect 1000 hex radius. I must use the
power on anyone with ice powers in radius. Added dice only work when
used against me.
which is more or less what a vuln is, though the exact radius is
definable...
Rook
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:03:26 -0500
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
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Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> wrote:
Mind Control:
Hunt Me, Viper members only, area effect extra radius (the world), 10d6
Which is technically what the Hunted disad does.
Not to mention:
[other humorous disadvantage constructions snipped]
***********************
Don't forget Mind Control: Do Stupid Things like falling off of
buildings, hanging around super-battles, and generally risking
your safety. (DNPC)
Jocularity aside, it would be nice if there were some way to
directly tie a disadvantageous power effect to a disad (presumably
Physical Limitation), but I suspect any attempt to do so wouldn't
be very balanced. The cost and structure of powers is based
on how potentially useful they are, not how bad it could be if
you were to use them against yourself.
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:13:05 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
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At 06:27 PM 2/26/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "L" == Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> writes:
>
>L> 10d6 Mind Control, 0 END+Persistant (+1), AE Radius
>L> (+1),Continuous(+1), Always On (-1/4), Single Command:"Hate me" (-1),
>L> Only affects females (-1/2):Total real cost, 72 points(!).
>
>Here is a point to remember: things that cost points are advantageous to
>the character; things that give points are disadvantageous.
>
>L> So you'd be asking a character to spend 72 points for a completely
>L> (or nearly) useless, and often dangerous, power.
>
>Exactly. Which is why I would write it up as, probably, a 20 or 25-point
>Physical Limitation, or perhaps a vague Reputation.
This functions almost exactly like a Distinctive Feature. Using the
Conditional Distinctive Features variant, call it a Large Group (all
females), Extreme Reaction, 20 points.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:17:27 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Hunt Me!
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At 07:28 AM 2/27/1998 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:
> After all, I could "Hunted: Viper, 14-" as a disad and you could make
>the argument that it's not valid cause I'm forcing Viper to hunt me. After
all
>what if they don't want to? So we have in this an example where we are
forcing
>Viper's actions in a character who is not Viper without using:
>
>Mind Control:
> Hunt Me, Viper members only, area effect extra radius (the world), 10d6
>
> Which is technically what the Hunted disad does.
Along a similar line, a while ago I was trying to work out a Power (in a
magical item) that would send a telepathic message to all of a character's
Hunters telling them exactly where he is. Does anyone have any suggestions
of how to do this in mechanical terms? (Other than "plot device," please.)
---
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Visible? (was Power Frameworks)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:29:48 -0800 (PST)
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> wouldn't the visible limitation be any good. Anything that doesn't normally
> use END doesn't have to have a special effect. The Visible limitation is
Has to have a special effect. Doesn't have to have a "visible" special
effect. Any GM who let's in something lacking a special effect is missing the
whole point. :)
Rook
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:46:38 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Crimes Among Despots
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At 02:11 PM 2/26/1998 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>> Crime is rarely a major problem in a land ruled by a ruthless despot.
>> Betcha there's no crime on the Malachite Islands!
>
>Actually, ruthless despotic realms have plenty of crime. However, if
>the despot is the "no trial, just shoot them" type, the crime tends to
>be black market and gangster stuff, rather than burglaries and
>muggings.
Good point. Though for this particular case (Malachite), I'd wager
genetic engineering has an effect as well. :-]
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:51:15 -0500
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Visible? (was Power Frameworks)
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At 08:29 AM 2/27/98 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:
>> wouldn't the visible limitation be any good. Anything that doesn't
normally
>> use END doesn't have to have a special effect. The Visible limitation is
>
> Has to have a special effect. Doesn't have to have a "visible" special
>effect. Any GM who let's in something lacking a special effect is missing the
>whole point. :)
>
Power most commonly lacking a special effect: Power Defense. I always look
at Power Defense _very_ carefully when one of my players wants to buy it.
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 09:24:35 -0800 (PST)
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> GH> What about the times he is turned off? He then only exists as pa
> tterns
> GH> of data stored in the computer.
>
> If he is an NPC then it really does not matter; if a PC then the player
> probably missed the session. Like I said, most of that is just special
> effects.
>
> You're assuming "turned off" means not there for the session -
> but what if it's a crucial point in the action? If the AI is
> vulnerable to being turned off by an enemy, or has reason at
> some times to act within the computer, rather than as a projection,
> it will be useful to have some representation of these things in
> game mechanics.
>
CyberHero has rules for playing an AI that lives in the net.
I don't remember how they worked, but perhaps they would be of use here.
Rook
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"John and Ron Prins\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 98 18:23:23
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
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On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 16:00:59 -0500 (EST), John and Ron Prins wrote:
>>Would people agree that there is a general progression of experience
>>reflected by cost in the various frameworks?
>>
>>With a multipower, generally a character can only use one or two powers
>>at the same time.
>>
>>With an Elemental Control, a character can demonstrate their skill by
>>performing all their tricks at the same time.
>>
>>With a Variable Power Pool, a character can demonstrate their mastery
>>by doing *anything* [related to the SFX and guided by the Limitations,
>>of course].
>
>Actually, unless I want variety, I prefer the EC over the VPP regardless of
>the cost. A well concieved character with few limitations can run several
>mid-to-high level powers at once in an EC (for example, Icicle - running,
>force field, and energy blasts). Try to do the same with a VPP and you have
>to scrounge enough limitations to fit the Real Point caps.
Active Point caps, actually. My PCs with VPPs are spellcasters (Priests
or Mages) who take a *lot* of Limitations.
>EC is a great way to get a lot of 'small' associated powers too. Take a look
>at this construct:
>
>7 EC: Fire Invulnerability (15), Only vs Fire/Heat (-1)
>7 A.) +20 rED Armor
>7 B.) 50% Resistant Energy Damage Reduction
Yes, I've done something with a Paladin's powers.
>VPPs shine when you need a lot of variety and adaptability.
Yes.
> MPs shine when
>you need limited variety and power. ECs are probably the most efficient way
>of getting a 'set' bunch of powers. I don't think of MP>EC>VPP as being a
>logical 'progression' from experience. Maybe MP>VPP, but ECs are sort of
>designed for the character that has a 'solidly' defined set of powers.
ECs are odd in that they mandate an AP minimum whereas the other two
mandate an AP maximum. On the whole, I think I agree with you.
qts
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 98 18:29:26
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: [HERO] Re: Bubble Boy
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On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 16:47:42 -0500 (EST), David Majors wrote:
>
>
>On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, qts wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 06:43:00 -0500 (EST), David Majors wrote:
>> >
>> >I have always played that you can't move around in an entangle.
>>
>> But an Entangled character can *be moved*. A nice difference.
>>
>
>True... But, since they are contained in a bubble, the bubble should also
>be able to be lifted. Wouldn't the special affect choose if the bubble is
>held in space or moveable.
Yes - the bubble has no effective weight in the example in the HSR. If
the Entangle were defined as a steel cage, then an advantage might be
called for.
>I guess since this item makes the contents float. We might want to add
>STR or TK to it to make the contents easy to lift. But, where does the
>special affect of the AE flight end. Would you still need the str to lift
>it or should the AE flight cover it?
Given the above, you'd just need enough STR to lift the contents of the
bubble.
>Now, back to the mobility of the bubble and the consequences of force
>walls being locked into space...
>
>Does a forcewall stay in place even if it does not have something below it
>to hold it against the effects of gravity? Or is this infact determined
>by the SE of the power? Has anyone decided this?
I've never had this one come up.
qts
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Tim R. Gilberg\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 98 18:43:02
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Using Stretching as an attack
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On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:06:09 -0600 (CST), Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> > I didn't like it, actually. This is more of a case of damage
>> >shield or block. Perhaps a damage shield with range would work in this
>> >case.
>>
>> How about an Unluck UAO Damage Shield? If the attacker gets N dice of
>> Unluck, he hits his mate?
>
>Nope. I won't allow disads to be bought as powers. Too much
>potential for abuse.
Actually, this is an adaptation of an effect in one of the HSRs.
> I still say buy a defense with some sort of triggered VSFX attack.
Probably better, yes.
qts
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 98 18:48:08
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: [HERO] Re: Bubble Boy
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On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:45:25 -0800 (PST), Brian Wong wrote:
>> >> >>...so, how do you model the bubbles? They float on
>> >> >>their own about a foot above the ground, they are
>> >> >>bouncy, there is space inside them to move around,
>> >> >>and they are self-contained.
>> >>
>> >> Can I ask what is wrong with using Entangle?
>> >>
>> >> Chris
>> >
>> >I have always played that you can't move around in an entangle.
>>
>> But an Entangled character can *be moved*. A nice difference.
>
> One major question here is:
>
>Can more than one person be in the same bubble?
>And if they can, are they able to interact?
Hehehe!
I don't see why not, if the Entangle was purchased with a sufficient
AOE advantage.
qts
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions
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Date: 27 Feb 1998 13:58:12 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "BS" == BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us> writes:
BS> You're assuming "turned off" means not there for the session -
BS> but what if it's a crucial point in the action?
If it is an NPC then it does not matter. If it is a PC then he probably
has Accidental Change.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
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>>>>> "JM" == Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> writes:
>> Exactly. Which is why I would write it up as, probably, a 20 or 25-point
>> Physical Limitation, or perhaps a vague Reputation.
JM> So, what about the PhysLim causes the women to actually hate him?
You tell me. I just threw out an off-the-cuff idea.
JM> What if a woman wants to like him?
That is her perogative. But the disadvantage is his, not hers.
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:26:47 -0800 (PST)
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> You're assuming "turned off" means not there for the session -
> BS> but what if it's a crucial point in the action?
>
> If it is an NPC then it does not matter. If it is a PC then he probably
> has Accidental Change.
Now that's a valid answer. This leads to the next question.
Accidental change to what? How do we build this other form?
Rook
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:27:51 -0800
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger)
Subject: Re[2]: Powers as Disadvantages...
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Rat wrote:
>>>>> "JM" == Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> writes:
>>> Exactly. Which is why I would write it up as, probably, a 20 or 25-point >>
Physical Limitation, or perhaps a vague Reputation.
JM> So, what about the PhysLim causes the women to actually hate him?
>You tell me. I just threw out an off-the-cuff idea.
JM> What if a woman wants to like him?
>That is her perogative. But the disadvantage is his, not hers.
I hate to nitpick, but the character that sparked this whole discussion
is actually a *she*, not a he.
Charma (IIRC), a villian from the Legion of Super Heroes (was partner
of Grimsbor the Chainsman, I think.)
Richard
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 14:29:54 -0500
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Time Travel
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I've got a rules question.
Actually, it's not so much a rules question, as a GM question.
A while back, a comic book came up with a character -- I think
the name was "Flashback", but I'm not sure -- whose power was
the ability to go back in time 7 seconds. She would yell "Flashback!"
and suddenly be back 7 seconds in time, and able to change what had
just happened.
The Champions rules provide for time travellers, but does anyone
have any idea how you would GM this particular character? (I work
with computers. I'm *allowed* to make up verbs on the fly.) Or
for that matter, how to play her?
====================== =================================================
Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
====================== =================================================
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:40:33 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Time Travel
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---Mike Christodoulou wrote:
>
> I've got a rules question.
>
> Actually, it's not so much a rules question, as a GM question.
>
> A while back, a comic book came up with a character -- I think
> the name was "Flashback", but I'm not sure -- whose power was
> the ability to go back in time 7 seconds. She would yell "Flashback!"
> and suddenly be back 7 seconds in time, and able to change what had
> just happened.
>
> The Champions rules provide for time travellers, but does anyone
> have any idea how you would GM this particular character? (I work
> with computers. I'm *allowed* to make up verbs on the fly.) Or
> for that matter, how to play her?
"Icky" is the term that comes to mind. This is the type of character
that makes a GM's head hurt, as well as introduces the potential to
make combat sessions last forever. As a GM I would work with the
character to alter the concept so as not to make my head explode.
Failing that, you're going to have to keep track of some extra
paperwork.
* First, instead of 7 seconds, I'd suggest making it 1 turn (12
secconds) to put it more in line with Hero timekeeping.
* Next, as GM you'll have to keep a fair detailed log of game effects
(character positions, damage, etc) so that when Spunky jumps back a
turn, you can refer to your paperwork and know what exactly was going
on 1 turn ago.
* Lastly, hope that Spunky gets knocked uncounscious soon.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:06:37 -0500 (EST)
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> Stainless Steel Rat said:
> >>>>> "JM" == Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> writes:
> >> Exactly. Which is why I would write it up as, probably, a 20 or 25-point
> >> Physical Limitation, or perhaps a vague Reputation.
> JM> So, what about the PhysLim causes the women to actually hate him?
>
> You tell me. I just threw out an off-the-cuff idea.
You wanted to model "women hate him" as a Phys Lim. I wanted to know how
my Phys Lim effects some other character. How much? How many dice of
Mind Control is it equivalent to?
> JM> What if a woman wants to like him?
> That is her perogative. But the disadvantage is his, not hers.
No, it's not her perogative. His PhysLim says she must hate him. So my
PC woman character must act differently than I as a player would want to.
That's why modelling it as a power would give me an in-game reason to act
differently than I normally would.
Joe
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 14:07:30 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Time Travel
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> The Champions rules provide for time travellers, but does anyone
> have any idea how you would GM this particular character? (I work
> with computers. I'm *allowed* to make up verbs on the fly.) Or
> for that matter, how to play her?
You don't. This is an idea that works great in a book form where
an author can handle heroes, villians, et all. In an RPG, people tend to
get annoyed when their last 7 seconds of life keep being replayed.
Basically, this character would become the campaign.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:08:31 -0500
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: RE: Time Travel
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Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net> wrote:
A while back, a comic book came up with a character -- I think
the name was "Flashback", but I'm not sure -- whose power was
the ability to go back in time 7 seconds. She would yell "Flashback!"
and suddenly be back 7 seconds in time, and able to change what had
just happened.
The Champions rules provide for time travellers, but does anyone
have any idea how you would GM this particular character? (I work
with computers. I'm *allowed* to make up verbs on the fly.) Or
for that matter, how to play her?
*******************************
Reluctantly. As you say, this isn't so much a rules problem as
a game mastering and playing problem. Ruleswise, one could simply
give Flashback (yes, that was her name) dimensional travel, then
repeat the past 7 segments. But it would get to be a mess in
actual play, as every player would insist that their character
was now reacting differently based on the change in Flashback's
actions. The best role-players might keep their actions more
consistent, but the GM would be faced with constant judgments
whether a character's actions were likely in the new circumstance,
or whether the player was taking unfair advantage of advance
knowledge. Another question would come up as well - do you
re-roll all the results of those 7 segments, or just those of
the changed actions (which gets back to the question of what
constitutes a changed action)?
I would advise any player suggesting such a character that this
might not be such a good concept for an RPG. While I'm all for
pushing the boundaries of what one can do in a game, I think it's
pretty clear that some stories and characters work better in an RPG
than others. Ulysses: the Role Playing Game would be tough to pull
off; the Odyssey, on the other hand, could work. RPG's work best
with external conflicts depicted in linear fashion. An internal
conflict can make for some impressive role-playing, and a
non-linear depiction of events can make for some very clever
GM'ing, if either is successfully pulled off, but one should be
realistic about the different strengths of different forms of
story-telling.
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 14:13:20 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Used HERO for sale
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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O.K. I'd be interested in a few books dependant on one condition
question. (Yes, I got your last message. However, when you go to
purchase, you can accept or reject based on the criterion.) As long as
the books aren't missing any pages or totally unbound or have any pages so
scribbled on to have text unreadable, I'd take them.
> HERO25 Hero System Bestiary $5.00
This is the old one, isn't it? Not for me, then.
> 503 FH Companion $7.50
> 505 Cyber Hero $9.95
> 506 FH Companion II $8.00
I do want these three, however. Good prices if they are complete.
I'm afriad the Companions may have maps torn out, however.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:14:46 -0500 (EST)
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> --------Guy Hoyle wrote:
> > What about the times he is turned off? He then only exists as patterns of
> >data stored in the computer.
>
> When can he be turned off? If it is by self will or by somebody giving
> the right commands, try a triggered dimensional teleport into the computer. If
> other things can turn him off like power failures or hard disk head crash, same
> thing, different triggers.
I haven't followed this thread to closely but someone way back when,
suggested Duplication. This would allow the character to be in the
computer and in holographic form simultaneously. Include costs END on the
duplication (attached to the computer program) and Accidental Change on
the Duplicate, to simulate winking out of existance when the END stops
being paid (whether by conscious will or being knocked unconscious).
(Include a XDM, No Conscious Control if you insist the character pay for
the ability to wink out of existance.) Whether you use the Spirit Rules
or not for the AI character is up to you.
Joe
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 14:16:07 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Aid in a Multipower
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> > Errata and new rules in new releases. This has been stressed as a
> >balance measure.
>
> I'm not asking about subsequently released books, a notorious source of inconsistant
> rule ideas
No matter your feeling on them, they have moved into the realm of
official. Especially with 5th edition likely to incorporate much of the
add-ons.
> - I'm asking about the core rules. I've seen no offical errata which
> mentions
> anything about the lingering effects of an Aid vanishing when a MP is shifted. Where
> can I find said errata?
I thought it was mentioned in the FAQ, but I'm not sure. For any
campaign utilizing the extended MA rules (NH or UMA) it is quite official.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Time Travel
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:17:39 -0800
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Mike Christodoulou wrote:
>Flashback's has the ability to go back in time 7 seconds,
>and change what had just happened.
>How would you GM/play this particular character?
That depends how her power is defined to work. If she travels to another
timeline each time she uses the power, what happens to those in the
original timeline? If so, just buy her EDM (possibly UAO AE) and make
everyone replay the whole bit.
Or does she reverse time? Here's an excerpt from my article on time
manipulation in Hero, at
http://www.geocities.com/area51/cavern/1905/haym12.html.
--
Reversing Time
One of the big advantages time controllers have over the rest of the
world is the ability to "rewind" time. This ability can be used to
restore things (people, objects, situations) to previous conditions.
This can be tricky to model in the Hero System, depending on exactly
what effects are desired. It's easily within character conception for a
time controller to want to rewind time back to her previous phase.
Rewinding time for everyone is much more difficult than rewinding just
for yourself.
In the short term, it can be used to heal damage, revert
transformations, teleport to previous location, etc. In the long term,
it can be used to transform old to young.
Example: Time Tripper can rewind himself one phase. This includes his
location (10" teleport only to location at the beginning of last phase
-1), physical status (4d6 aid versus all powers and characteristics
below starting value +2, only to value at the beginning of previous
phase -1), unusual defenses (flash defense, power defense, and mental
defense, linked to rewinding, must rewind on next phase -1), and
miscellaneous (change environment and instant change, only to rewind
self to beginning of last phase -1). All of his rewind powers have an
all-or-nothing limitation -1 so that if he can't rewind himself in all
ways, it doesn't work at all.
Time Tripper did a full move of 6", then gets hit with an attack for 12
STUN, 1 BODY, 6" knockback, and 4 points of flash versus sight. Since
the attack was at an angle to his movement, he's actually only 9" away
from his starting location, so the teleport part of his rewind will be
successful. His flash defense is 5, so by rewinding, his defense will
have taken effect last phase, so that he never was flashed. As long as
he rolls at least a 12 on his 4d6 aid, his STUN will be restored to its
value last phase, and his BODY will also be restored. If he rolls less
than a 12, none of these effects will happen. His change environment and
instant change will get the smell and the holes from the attack out of
his clothes.
--
Are there times when her flashback doesn't work (if the effects are too
large, like a nuke going off)? Can she use her power 10 times in a row
to go back 70 seconds, or does she have to wait for time to "catch up
with her?"
An alternate method is to treat the time travel as special effect. I
once designed a precognitive, who already knew what was going to happen,
but could alter it. Instead of relying on the Precog power, I used
danger sense, damage reduction, missile deflection, luck, and flash
defense on an activation roll that represented whether he foresaw the
current situation.
Dave Mattingly
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 14:18:16 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Aid in a Multipower
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> Simply put, this is a rule that should only apply to specific SFX and
> campaign styles; martial arts as presented in NH and TUMA are pretty strict
> about allowing frameworks in the first place, so this 'new restriction'
> doesn't provide any Limitation. It should not be a 'general' Champions rule.
>
> And what about Aids in a VPP? TUMA makes no mention of these, but the same
> 'logic' would have to apply, wouldn't it?
Yes. And no, it doesn't fit certain SFX -- I'll agree. However,
it really is a balance issue. Champions is easy enough to abuse as is.
No, I could see plugging an advantage in to allow the effects to linger.
Also, when the cost switches to 10 per die in the next edition
(and in official errata currently -- FAQ, I think) I won't enforce this
anymore and, indeed, would give a limitation to the Ch'i AID construction.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 14:22:41 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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> > So buy the characteristics outside of the EC. It's quite legal.
> >You just won't be quite so powerful.
>
> Actually, Characteristics in an EC is 'legal', provided GM permission is gained.
> It does satisfy the criteria for an EC - they have common special effects.
IMO, your characteristics should have common SFX anyway. And this
is something you won't get permission for, plain and simple. Therefore it
will always be illegal. (IMC)
>
> >> 10CP Elemental Control: Temporal Acceleration Envelope (15), Only to Double
> >> 'Natural' Attributes (-1/4), Visible (-1/4)
> >> 12CP A.)+15 DEX, No Figured Characteristics (-1/2), No Skill Adds (-1/2)
> >> 10CP B.)+3 SPD
> >
> > Nope, there ain't no way I'm allowing 75 points of characteristics
> >to be bought for 32 points. And the "visible" has to go as well, it
> >already is.
>
> Let's see:
>
> +15 DEX w/ -1 1/2 limitations: 20 points
> +3 SPD w/ -1/2 limitations: 20 points
Hmmm. That is, if I'm correct, DEX that only affects CV and
combat order, right? All else has been removed. Therefore, it is
equivilent to +5 OCV, +5 DCV. (Which equals 50 points.) You are trying
to get it for 20 before lims. Nope. Throw out the Skill level limitation
and the visible. The effect isn't obvious enough for visible. Oh, the
"only to double" isn't worth enough, either. Maybe a 5 pt Physical Lim.
Refigure from there. The crocked disads kidna tip the points a
bit.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 14:25:18 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Reply-To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
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> > Nice, but couldn't this be a offshoot of a enhanced Suceptability?
> >
> Uhm...but in this particular case, the people affected by the power
> aren't the character. How would you write it up as a susceptability?
Like I said, Susceptability could use an expanding. For powers
that affect others in ways non-harmful to them but harmful to the
character, write it up as a Suscept. I don't know, just thinking.
Perhaps a new disadvantage section would be best.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 14:27:39 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Bubble-Boy
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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> > My guess would be a Continuous, uncontrolled Force wall linked to
> >Continuous, Uncontrolled UAO Flight and Continuous, Uncontrolled UAO
> Life
> >Support, but Damn if it wouldn't be expensive.
>
> Since he can dispel them at will, Uncontrolled would either be
> inappropriate, or he would have to have a powerful Dispel, as well.
There's nothing wrong with him being able to turn off his own
Uncontrolled powers. Just make that one of the "set of conditions" that
will stop the uncontrolled power.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:34:05 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Time Travel
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 02:29 PM 2/27/1998 -0500, Mike Christodoulou wrote:
>I've got a rules question.
>
>Actually, it's not so much a rules question, as a GM question.
>
>A while back, a comic book came up with a character -- I think
>the name was "Flashback", but I'm not sure -- whose power was
>the ability to go back in time 7 seconds. She would yell "Flashback!"
>and suddenly be back 7 seconds in time, and able to change what had
>just happened.
>
>The Champions rules provide for time travellers, but does anyone
>have any idea how you would GM this particular character? (I work
>with computers. I'm *allowed* to make up verbs on the fly.) Or
>for that matter, how to play her?
If a character were allowed to do this, it could be (a) unbalancing to
plotlines ("Hm, wrong answer, huh? Well, I'll just go back in time and
guess again!"), and (b) quite difficult to administer.
The difficulties plotwise and balancewise (I'm a writer; I'm *allowed*
to make up adjectives on the fly) should be relatively obvious even without
the above example; and even if it isn't, you'll probably get more than
enough people explaining it without my two cents' worth. So I'll turn to
the administrative problems.
The big trouble is that you'd have to be able to remember what
everything was like seven second previous. In most cases, like
conversations and investigations, that won't be difficult; such situations
are fairly simple. But to back up in a combat you'd have to know what
everyone's STUN and END were, what Charges had been expended in the
meantime, where everyone was standing/flying/whatever, and so forth. Most
of that is fairly easy to keep in a combat log (I've kept such a thing,
it's quite handy for a number of reasons that I'll go into some other
time), but recording what hex a character is in can be a real pain.
What's more, unless the time-travelling character interacts differently
with one of the other characters, they will all *have* to do the same
thing, including doing identical STUN damage, BODY damage, Knockback, and
so forth.
And that is about the extent of the input I can come up with right off
the top of my head.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 14:50:55 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Subject: Re: Used HERO for sale
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Oops, disregard that sale message. Sent it to the wrong address.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 14:56:27 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
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> > +15 DEX w/ -1 1/2 limitations: 20 points
> > +3 SPD w/ -1/2 limitations: 20 points
>
> Hmmm. That is, if I'm correct, DEX that only affects CV and
> combat order, right? All else has been removed. Therefore, it is
> equivilent to +5 OCV, +5 DCV. (Which equals 50 points.) You are trying
> to get it for 20 before lims. Nope. Throw out the Skill level limitation
> and the visible. The effect isn't obvious enough for visible. Oh, the
> "only to double" isn't worth enough, either. Maybe a 5 pt Physical Lim.
Oops, forgot the +15 lightning reflexes for 22 points. Make that
72 points total for 20 points.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 13:02:21 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Aid in a Multipower
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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---"Tim R. Gilberg" wrote:
>
>
> > > Errata and new rules in new releases. This has been stressed as a
> > >balance measure.
> >
> > I'm not asking about subsequently released books, a notorious
source of inconsistant
> > rule ideas
>
> No matter your feeling on them, they have moved into the
> realm of official.
How do you figure that? Even the Ultimate Martial Artist book refers
to them as Rules Options and states that "GMs are urged to examine the
rules in this book carefully before allowing them to be used in their
campaigns." and even acknowledges that the rules modifications
presented within it may not be appropriate for all types of campaigns.
This hardly sounds like something that should be taken as part of the
core Hero rules.
> Especially with 5th edition likely to incorporate much of the
> add-ons.
Maybe, maybe not - but from the way the folks at Herogames have talked
about their plans for it, I'm betting very few of the rules ideas from
other publications make their way into 5th edition.
> > - I'm asking about the core rules. I've seen no offical errata
which
> > mentions
> > anything about the lingering effects of an Aid vanishing when a MP
is shifted. Where
> > can I find said errata?
>
> I thought it was mentioned in the FAQ, but I'm not sure.
Nope, not in the FAQ.
> For any campaign utilizing the extended MA rules (NH or UMA) it is >
quite official.
UMA only, NH didn't specify it.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 13:02:21 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Aid in a Multipower
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
---"Tim R. Gilberg" wrote:
>
>
> > > Errata and new rules in new releases. This has been stressed as a
> > >balance measure.
> >
> > I'm not asking about subsequently released books, a notorious
source of inconsistant
> > rule ideas
>
> No matter your feeling on them, they have moved into the
> realm of official.
How do you figure that? Even the Ultimate Martial Artist book refers
to them as Rules Options and states that "GMs are urged to examine the
rules in this book carefully before allowing them to be used in their
campaigns." and even acknowledges that the rules modifications
presented within it may not be appropriate for all types of campaigns.
This hardly sounds like something that should be taken as part of the
core Hero rules.
> Especially with 5th edition likely to incorporate much of the
> add-ons.
Maybe, maybe not - but from the way the folks at Herogames have talked
about their plans for it, I'm betting very few of the rules ideas from
other publications make their way into 5th edition.
> > - I'm asking about the core rules. I've seen no offical errata
which
> > mentions
> > anything about the lingering effects of an Aid vanishing when a MP
is shifted. Where
> > can I find said errata?
>
> I thought it was mentioned in the FAQ, but I'm not sure.
Nope, not in the FAQ.
> For any campaign utilizing the extended MA rules (NH or UMA) it is >
quite official.
UMA only, NH didn't specify it.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Hunt Me!
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 13:04:00 -0800
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Bob G said:
>a while ago I was trying to work out a Power (in a magical item) that
would
>send a telepathic message to all of a character's Hunters telling them
>exactly where he is. Does anyone have any suggestions of how to do
>this in mechanical terms? (Other than "plot device," please.)
Why did you try a power instead of a disad or limitation?
Anyway, you could try Mind Link, small group of minds, only to give away
location -2, always on.
Or Clairsentience UBO, only of item user's location -1/2, only usable by
hunters -2, always on.
Or 1d6 Mind Scan +20 ECV, only to let target know he's being scanned -2,
always on.
Dave Mattingly
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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 13:05:53 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Hunt Me!
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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At 08:17 AM 2/27/98 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> Along a similar line, a while ago I was trying to work out a
Power (in a
>magical item) that would send a telepathic message to all of a
character's
>Hunters telling them exactly where he is. Does anyone have any
suggestions
>of how to do this in mechanical terms? (Other than "plot device,"
please.)
Detect, prescence of character, usable by others, only usable by
characters enemies, humongous increased range, uncontrolled, 0 END,
persistant, always on. Something like that.
Another option is a Mind Link, same general framework.
This actually is useful for a number of 'cursed' magic items, like a
Ring Of Monster Attraction from good old AD&D...
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 13:08:26 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Powers as Disadvantages...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 11:27 AM 2/27/98 -0800, Richard G Schwerdtfeger wrote:
>I hate to nitpick, but the character that sparked this whole
discussion
>is actually a *she*, not a he.
>
>Charma (IIRC), a villian from the Legion of Super Heroes (was
partner
>of Grimsbor the Chainsman, I think.)
>
Precisely. I was reviewing my LSH stuff, and that struck me as an odd
thing to model in Hero terms, in that the POWER was easy to model,
but the point cost was not.
Another option is to buy it as a variant Side Effect limitation on
her Mind Control vs. Men (the exact same writeup, except limited to
'Men Only' and the single command is 'Love/Protect Me').
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:12:34 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> > You tell me. I just threw out an off-the-cuff idea.
>
> You wanted to model "women hate him" as a Phys Lim. I wanted to know how
> my Phys Lim effects some other character. How much? How many dice of
> Mind Control is it equivalent to?
You don't sound like you'd be very fun to play with. Call it like
a Psych lim on women at whatever level he takes it at. That should work
> > JM> What if a woman wants to like him?
> > That is her perogative. But the disadvantage is his, not hers.
> No, it's not her perogative. His PhysLim says she must hate him. So my
> PC woman character must act differently than I as a player would want to.
> That's why modelling it as a power would give me an in-game reason to act
> differently than I normally would.
You act differently because you can "role-play", not because some
abstract rule says that you should. This is a roleplaying game, not some
excuse to make up numbers and roll dice. If you are so enthralled with
rules, switch to Rolemaster. I, as GM, would say simply, "You just feel a
lot of general animosity to Character N. Make an Ego roll if you want to
act against this feeling, but it will remain with you."
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 13:20:30 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: There's an idea: re:Used HERO for sale
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Can't you just see that in an over-the-top campaign?
"Used hero for sale. Good vs. Evil Overlords, Mutant Hellbeasts, and
Giggling Sociopaths. Only 50 points in Disads still remaining. Comes
with 2 DNPCs. Ask about base and vehicles at low additional cost."
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:31:45 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Hunt Me!
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Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
>
> Along a similar line, a while ago I was trying to work out a Power (in a
> magical item) that would send a telepathic message to all of a character's
> Hunters telling them exactly where he is. Does anyone have any suggestions
> of how to do this in mechanical terms? (Other than "plot device," please.)
> ---
How about Detect Enemies, Usable at Range, with no range modifier, and targeting
sense for the telepathic message ?
Curt
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:35:21 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Power Supply Man
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Power Supply Man can use his personal energy to power any kind of device
that requires power. He's essentially a living battery, but not just for
electrical devices.
How would this be modelled ?
Curt Hicks
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:46:56 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Subject: Fantasy Hero Suppliments
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Does anyone know off-hand what ICE Rolemaster suppliments included
Fantasy Hero information?
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:53:51 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Power Supply Man
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On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Curt Hicks wrote:
>
>
> Power Supply Man can use his personal energy to power any kind of device
> that requires power. He's essentially a living battery, but not just for
> electrical devices.
Aid. But I don't have my books handy, so I'm not sure if there is an
advantage to cover aiding *anything*.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:56:18 -0500
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Time Travel
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At 12:17 PM 2/27/98 -0800, Dave Mattingly wrote:
>That depends how her power is defined to work. If she travels to another
>timeline each time she uses the power, what happens to those in the
>original timeline? If so, just buy her EDM (possibly UAO AE) and make
>everyone replay the whole bit.
Example ...
"Ohmigod! Johnny Bullseye just got shot! I think he's dead!! FLASHBACK!!"
[seven seconds earlier]
"Johnny! Look out!"
"Huh? oof!" Johnny gets hit by Flashback's flying tackle.
"Damn! Where did that bullet come from? I almost got hit! You saved
my life!"
- - - - - - -
I think if I were to create such a character, it would be a one-shot
scenario (predictable), or there would be so many limitations on the
power that it could only be used once in a blue moon (more interesting).
Maybe he takes so much stun or body from the leap that he's useless for
the remainder of the scenario.
Yeah, I have to agree with all the opinions expressed so far. This would
be difficult, if not impossible, to pull off in a game. But it doesn't
stop me from considering it. :)
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:04:51 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: DC maxima
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by "Theala Sildorian"
>As you noted, it does make it harder for a martial artist to do tons
of damage to a brick--which is how I think it should be. That's why
they're called BRICKS.<
What I meant was in a one-on-one combat, it might be impossible for a
martial artist to damage the brick at all. I had that problem in one
combat, and it seems like your table would make it more common. Maybe the
moral here is that a martial artist just shouldn't try to take on a brick
if he doesn't have help (your martial artist sounds like an exception, with
that big killing attack).
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:09:10 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Champs in Columbus OH?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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If anyone in Columbus OH has a group that needs more players, or is
interested in joining a group, send me a private email.
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:11:06 -0500 (EST)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
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>> +15 DEX w/ -1 1/2 limitations: 20 points
>> +3 SPD w/ -1/2 limitations: 20 points
>
> Hmmm. That is, if I'm correct, DEX that only affects CV and
>combat order, right? All else has been removed. Therefore, it is
>equivilent to +5 OCV, +5 DCV. (Which equals 50 points.)
I don't see where you get this idea. The cost structure b/w characteristics
and Combat Levels are unrelated. +5 OCV and +5 DCV Cost 45 points at worst,
b/c I'm getting them through DEX. Apples and Oranges. Combat Levels are
skills; DEX bought as a power is not. The effect is that Velocitor moves
twice as fast as normal; i.e. from his point of view the world is
half-speed. That doesn't give him more 'skill' in combat, but does make him
more able to strike and avoid being struck. The SFX warrant purchasing
limited DEX rather than combat levels. Using your logic nobody could buy DEX
b/c it's a point crock (+1 OCV, +1 DCV, +3 Lightning Reflexes, +1 w/ DEX
rolls, that's 17 points worth for 9, not IMC!).
> You are trying
>to get it for 20 before lims. Nope. Throw out the Skill level limitation
>and the visible. The effect isn't obvious enough for visible.
Same effect as OIHID. Same cost. What's the problem?
>Oh, the
>"only to double" isn't worth enough, either. Maybe a 5 pt Physical Lim.
Bullcookies. And it if it were a disad, it would be a Vulnerability, worth
at least 20 points (2x effect on DEX drains, and a 2x effect on SPD drains,
both uncommon, 10 points each).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:16:49 -0600 (CST)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Power Supply Man
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Hmm. End or End Battery, Usable Against Others would be my instinct.
Limit to taste.
J
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Power Supply Man
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>>>>> "CH" == Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> writes:
CH> Power Supply Man can use his personal energy to power any kind of
CH> device that requires power. He's essentially a living battery, but not
CH> just for electrical devices.
CH> How would this be modelled ?
Define what you mean by "requires power".
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Powers as Disadvantages...
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>>>>> "RGS" == Richard G Schwerdtfeger <RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com>
>>>>> writes:
>> That is her perogative. But the disadvantage is his, not hers.
RGS> I hate to nitpick, but the character that sparked this whole discussion
RGS> is actually a *she*, not a he.
I hate to nitpick, but "his" is a gender-neutral pronoun when the gender of
the person in question is ambiguous.
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:19:00 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions
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On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
> > --------Guy Hoyle wrote:
> > > What about the times he is turned off? He then only exists as patterns of
> > >data stored in the computer.
> >
> > When can he be turned off? If it is by self will or by somebody giving
> > the right commands, try a triggered dimensional teleport into the computer. If
> > other things can turn him off like power failures or hard disk head crash, same
> > thing, different triggers.
>
> I haven't followed this thread to closely but someone way back when,
> suggested Duplication.
That was me; include Transdimensional and "original is unable to act for
the duration, other than to maintain the holographic image", and you not
only have the ability to travel from cyberspace to the physical world
(Extra-dimensional travel, -1L: Leaves body behind), you also have a
completely different form while you're in the physical world - one more
suited to it. Furthermore, remove the "unable to act" clause, and the AI
can be doing other things on the net at the same time that it's
maintaining the holographic
> This would allow the character to be in the
> computer and in holographic form simultaneously. Include costs END on the
> duplication (attached to the computer program) and Accidental Change on
> the Duplicate, to simulate winking out of existance when the END stops
> being paid (whether by conscious will or being knocked unconscious).
You wouldn't need the Accidental Change; as soon as the END stops being
payed, the hologram winks out of existence...
> (Include a XDM, No Conscious Control if you insist the character pay for
> the ability to wink out of existance.) Whether you use the Spirit Rules
> or not for the AI character is up to you.
He's already paying for it, by purchasing Duplicate.
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:20:03 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Power Supply Man
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Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
>
> On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Curt Hicks wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Power Supply Man can use his personal energy to power any kind of device
> > that requires power. He's essentially a living battery, but not just for
> > electrical devices.
>
> Aid. But I don't have my books handy, so I'm not sure if there is an
> advantage to cover aiding *anything*.
>
I thought about aid actually. As far as the advantage goes, isn't there
a +2 or something like that for 'aid anything' ? However, I think aid would
actually only increase the 'effect' of the aided object, which doesn't make
sense to me when we're talking about supplying power for an unplugged television. Maybe aid to the endurance reserve for the device ?
Curt
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:26:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Power Supply Man
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On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Curt Hicks wrote:
> > > Power Supply Man can use his personal energy to power any kind of device
> > > that requires power. He's essentially a living battery, but not just for
> > > electrical devices.
> >
> > Aid. But I don't have my books handy, so I'm not sure if there is an
> > advantage to cover aiding *anything*.
> >
>
> I thought about aid actually. As far as the advantage goes, isn't there
> a +2 or something like that for 'aid anything' ? However, I think aid would
> actually only increase the 'effect' of the aided object, which doesn't make
> sense to me when we're talking about supplying power for an unplugged
television. Maybe aid to the endurance reserve for the device ?
Which is what I was thinking of when I said Aid (sorry). The problem is
most devices don't hae End Reserves and such. A lot of this would be
SFX... Or some sort of Cosmic Power Pool to duplicate the powers of such
objects.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
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>>>>> "JM" == Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> writes:
>> You tell me. I just threw out an off-the-cuff idea.
JM> You wanted to model "women hate him" as a Phys Lim. I wanted to know
JM> how my Phys Lim effects some other character.
How does Distinctive Features affect other characters? How does "Physical
Limitation: crippled" affect some people?
I picked out Physical Limitation for a couple of reasons. Most
importantly, Physical Limitations are disadvantages that characters cannot
overcome by directed effort. There is nothing that a character with
"Phys.: Hated by women" can do about it. They do, and let them invent
their own reasons for it.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
>> No, it's not her perogative. His PhysLim says she must hate him. So my
>> PC woman character must act differently than I as a player would want to.
>> That's why modelling it as a power would give me an in-game reason to act
>> differently than I normally would.
TRG> You act differently because you can "role-play", not because some
TRG> abstract rule says that you should.
Enlightenment comes but infrequently. Bask in the glow while you can. :)
You see, the problem with modeling it as Mind Control is because that takes
away from role-playing. "Victims" of the disadvantage, women, that is,
will tend to hate the character for whatever reasons their minds invent.
Yes, it is irrational; hatred is irrational. But when done as a Physical
Limitation it provides them the chance to be rational about the character,
and in fact requires it. Mind Control completely eliminates that option.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Powers as Disadvantages...
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>>>>> "L" == Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> writes:
L> Precisely. I was reviewing my LSH stuff, and that struck me as an odd
L> thing to model in Hero terms, in that the POWER was easy to model,
L> but the point cost was not.
As I previously stated, this is not a power but a disadvantage. If you
stop thinking of it as a power and start thinking of it as a disadvantage
it becomes much easier to model.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions
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>>>>> "BW" == Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> writes:
BW> Now that's a valid answer. This leads to the next question.
BW> Accidental change to what? How do we build this other form?
Define the nature and advantages of the "other form".
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:51:56 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Power Supply Man
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Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes:
>
> >>>>> "CH" == Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> writes:
>
> CH> Power Supply Man can use his personal energy to power any kind of
> CH> device that requires power. He's essentially a living battery, but not
> CH> just for electrical devices.
>
> CH> How would this be modelled ?
>
SSR> Define what you mean by "requires power".
?!?!?! I can give examples, but don't really have a good definition.
flashlight, television, radio, obviously require electrical power, either
self-contained or from an external source. however, I was also thinking about
stuff that needs fuel, e.g. gasoline powered vehicles, steam-powered locomotives
etc. I realize that for vehicles I could just use telekinesis to move them
instead... Curt
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:59:36 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
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>
> I don't see where you get this idea. The cost structure b/w characteristics
> and Combat Levels are unrelated. +5 OCV and +5 DCV Cost 45 points at worst,
> b/c I'm getting them through DEX. Apples and Oranges. Combat Levels are
True,but bought seperately, as you are doing with your exclusions,
they would cost 50 points.
> skills; DEX bought as a power is not. The effect is that Velocitor moves
> twice as fast as normal; i.e. from his point of view the world is
> half-speed. That doesn't give him more 'skill' in combat, but does make him
> more able to strike and avoid being struck.
Same thing, different words.
> The SFX warrant purchasing
> limited DEX rather than combat levels. Using your logic nobody could buy DEX
> b/c it's a point crock (+1 OCV, +1 DCV, +3 Lightning Reflexes, +1 w/ DEX
> rolls, that's 17 points worth for 9, not IMC!).
Nope. It's fine to buy DEX, but I'm very very strict on limited
DEX. (Or any limited characterisic with heavy point breaks. Non-limiting
limitations tend to give too much for free).
> >to get it for 20 before lims. Nope. Throw out the Skill level limitation
> >and the visible. The effect isn't obvious enough for visible.
>
> Same effect as OIHID. Same cost. What's the problem?
Less limitation.
> Bullcookies. And it if it were a disad, it would be a Vulnerability, worth
> at least 20 points (2x effect on DEX drains, and a 2x effect on SPD drains,
> both uncommon, 10 points each).
Agreed. It would be worth a 20 point disad.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 18:19:54 -0500
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net>
Subject: Good ideas turned bad?
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Anyone up to sharing stories of the worst 'good idea turned bad' they've
had happen to them?
Mine would have to be:
A couple of years ago we were fighting a villian team which included
'Impale', who had a NASTY killing attack.
Hellfire, the team mentalist decided to try to take Impale out of the
fight with a mind control, but was worried that if she tried anything
too difficult that the mind control would fail.
So... noting that Impale had no ranged attacks, no flight, and a history
with Schrapnel (our flying energy projector), she mind controlled him
with the command to 'Kill Schrapnel'. Then sat back with a smug look on
her face as Impale wasted his next phase trying in vain to reach the
flying Schrapnel.
Of course, she had a slightly DIFFERENT look on her face when, on the
very next phase... another villian stunned Schrapnel... and his force
field-less body fell to the ground at the feet of the waiting Impale...
Doh!!
(luckily one of the other heroes was able to protect Schrapnel long
enough for him to recover, so the story DID have a happy ending... )
Todd
--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Todd Hanson Minnesota: Land of two seasons:
BadTodd@dacmail.net winter is coming, winter is here.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:57:15 -0800
From: Douglas Alger <dalger@cisco.com>
Subject: Resisting Teleport
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I seem to remember reading that you could use Teleport to resist being
teleported by another person, with whoever had the most inches winning.
Was this a pre-4th Edition rule, am I overlooking it in the current
edition, or did it never exist as an option?
- Doug
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 19:02:04 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions
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At 04:19 PM 2/27/98 -0600, Dataweaver wrote:
>On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>> (Include a XDM, No Conscious Control if you insist the character pay for
>> the ability to wink out of existance.) Whether you use the Spirit Rules
>> or not for the AI character is up to you.
>
>He's already paying for it, by purchasing Duplicate.
By BBB rule, the duplicates can only merge when they are touching. The
conscious Duplicate should disappear when the AI is knocked unconscious. I
know most people handwave that away but, for those who don't, XDM (I forgot
0 END, Persistant), NCC is a reasonable simulation.
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 19:17:37 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Time Travel
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 02:07 PM 2/27/98 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> The Champions rules provide for time travellers, but does anyone
>> have any idea how you would GM this particular character? (I work
>> with computers. I'm *allowed* to make up verbs on the fly.) Or
>> for that matter, how to play her?
>
> You don't. This is an idea that works great in a book form where
>an author can handle heroes, villians, et all. In an RPG, people tend to
>get annoyed when their last 7 seconds of life keep being replayed.
>Basically, this character would become the campaign.
If he absolutely has to have this type of ability, have him buy a VPP which
simulates the effects of reliving the last round.
A healing Aid, only up to damage taken, which reverses the damage taken
when someone is really creamed,
A minor Transform which unstuns a party member.
Mind Control with linked Teleports, UAO which caused the person to run a
different direction the previous round because you warned him about something.
etc.
No one said this would be a small VPP.
Joe
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 19:19:51 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Hunt Me!
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>At 07:28 AM 2/27/1998 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:
>> After all, I could "Hunted: Viper, 14-" as a disad and you could make
>>the argument that it's not valid cause I'm forcing Viper to hunt me. After
>all
>>what if they don't want to? So we have in this an example where we are
>forcing
>>Viper's actions in a character who is not Viper without using:
>>
>>Mind Control:
>> Hunt Me, Viper members only, area effect extra radius (the world), 10d6
>>
>> Which is technically what the Hunted disad does.
But there is one big difference. Viper has a reason to hunt you, I
presume. You have something they want, so they decided to hunt you. All
women do not have a reason to hate you. It is an unnatural reaction to
seeing you.
I'm leaning toward the Distinctive Feature, Extreme Reaction, construct
people have suggested. But, PhysLim is just silly. PhysLim should only be
used to describe things that you cannot do. "Be liked by women" stretches
the intention of "cannot do".
Joe
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X-Sender: dalger@thyme.cisco.com
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:27:43 -0800
From: Douglas Alger <dalger@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Good ideas turned bad?
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Several years ago, a player in our group had a hero named Inviant, who was
an invisible giant. (A decidely odd combination, since this was back in the
days when Growth normally added to your Presence. Anyway...)
During one session, a news helicopter was struck in combat by a villain and
crashed into a skyscraper, knocking out its pilot and passengers. Inviant,
wanting to make sure everyone was OK, carefully pulled the trapped copter
out of the building, whereupon it's now-free rotor blade whipped around and
whacked him in the side of the face.
Normally a durable fellow, Inviant came within a few pips of being
summarily beheaded.
(Poor Inviant tended to do this stuff all the time. None of his teammates
ever saw him in hero ID, but kept finding the same unconscious fellow near
all of their battles. We took to calling him Narcoleptic Man...)
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X-Authentication-Warning: xanadu.io.com: traveler owned process doing -bs
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 18:57:26 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions
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On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
> At 04:19 PM 2/27/98 -0600, Dataweaver wrote:
> >On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
> >> (Include a XDM, No Conscious Control if you insist the character pay for
> >> the ability to wink out of existance.) Whether you use the Spirit Rules
> >> or not for the AI character is up to you.
> >
> >He's already paying for it, by purchasing Duplicate.
>
> By BBB rule, the duplicates can only merge when they are touching. The
> conscious Duplicate should disappear when the AI is knocked unconscious. I
> know most people handwave that away but, for those who don't, XDM (I forgot
> 0 END, Persistant), NCC is a reasonable simulation.
I don't have anything against handwaving (I prefer it to putting a dozen
tweaks into a writeup), but this one isn't neccessarily a handwave; the
Transdimensional that I mentioned above pretty much makes that rule
meaningless (let's see: I'm in cyberspace, and my Duplicate is in the
physical world; exactly what is meant by "touching" in this case?)
OTOH, you might also define it as a more normal version of Duplication,
where the original form is built using the AI Computer rules and the other
form is built as a regular character or an Automaton; in this case, add
the Indirect Advantage to represent the fact that the Duplicate doesn't
need to be anywhere near the original when it disappears - or when it
appears, for that matter...
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 19:16:48 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Hunt Me!
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> I'm leaning toward the Distinctive Feature, Extreme Reaction, construct
> people have suggested. But, PhysLim is just silly. PhysLim should only be
> used to describe things that you cannot do. "Be liked by women" stretches
> the intention of "cannot do".
That's your interpretation and your interpretation only. Phys Lim
is actually for things you can't avoid with an Ego roll, on lowest terms.
This works fine for this efffect.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 19:24:03 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Good ideas turned bad?
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> Normally a durable fellow, Inviant came within a few pips of being
> summarily beheaded.
>
> (Poor Inviant tended to do this stuff all the time. None of his teammates
> ever saw him in hero ID, but kept finding the same unconscious fellow near
> all of their battles. We took to calling him Narcoleptic Man...)
Heh. This is one of the more humourous character tales I've
heard.
I really like the nickname, however. An old group of mine had a
particular thing for nicknames. We had two characters: The Holy Crusader
and Malanichus (Evil Claw in Latin, I think) who joined together and
quickly earned humourous nicknames: The Cold Cut Avenger and
Might-Not-Like-Us.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:44:36 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Power Supply Man
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At 03:35 PM 2/27/98 -0600, Curt Hicks wrote:
>
>
>Power Supply Man can use his personal energy to power any kind of
device
>that requires power. He's essentially a living battery, but not
just for
>electrical devices.
>
>How would this be modelled ?
>
AID to END, usable on others (is AID UOO by default? I forget...).
This requires you work out the END consumption of all devices...or
just fudge the exact details.
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:59:41 -0500 (EST)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Power Supply Man
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>Power Supply Man can use his personal energy to power any kind of device
>that requires power. He's essentially a living battery, but not just for
>electrical devices.
>
>How would this be modelled ?
How about this:
0 END for up to 60 AP of power (30 points), Useable by Others, Up to 8
People/Devices, At Range (+1 3/4), Only for Electrically Powered Devices
(-1/2?), 55 Real Points.
I don't think it's exactly legal to use a 'naked' advantage in such a
fashion, but it does model the power nicely and is by no means 'cheap'.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:59:56 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Hunt Me!
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At 01:05 PM 2/27/1998 -0800, Lizard wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>At 08:17 AM 2/27/98 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>> Along a similar line, a while ago I was trying to work out a
>Power (in a
>>magical item) that would send a telepathic message to all of a
>character's
>>Hunters telling them exactly where he is. Does anyone have any
>suggestions
>>of how to do this in mechanical terms? (Other than "plot device,"
>please.)
>
>Detect, prescence of character, usable by others, only usable by
>characters enemies, humongous increased range, uncontrolled, 0 END,
>persistant, always on. Something like that.
>
>Another option is a Mind Link, same general framework.
So far I like this one best.
>This actually is useful for a number of 'cursed' magic items, like a
>Ring Of Monster Attraction from good old AD&D...
It's actually an old amulet that Foxbat discovers. (Oh yes... add
"Stiky" to the list of Advantages!)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 18:02:16 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Power Supply Man
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At 03:35 PM 2/27/1998 -0600, Curt Hicks wrote:
>
>
>Power Supply Man can use his personal energy to power any kind of device
>that requires power. He's essentially a living battery, but not just for
>electrical devices.
>
>How would this be modelled ?
Just offhand, I'd say END Batter, UBO.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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X-Sender: dalger@thyme.cisco.com
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 18:03:16 -0800
From: Douglas Alger <dalger@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Good ideas turned bad?
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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>I really like the nickname, however. An old group of mine had a
>particular thing for nicknames. We had two characters: The Holy Crusader
>and Malanichus (Evil Claw in Latin, I think) who joined together and
>quickly earned humourous nicknames: The Cold Cut Avenger and
>Might-Not-Like-Us.
Bwah-Ha-Ha-Ha! (Blue Beetle, rubbing tears away from under his mask...)
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 18:57:47 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Masochistic project du jour
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X-Status:
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X-UID: 20
Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
>
> I've always found the optional Language Chart in the BBB a good idea, but a
> bit of a pain to use. If you're only picking up one or two extra
> languages, no big deal. If your character speaks a dozen, there's the
> prospect of discounts for related languages, free points for very closely
> related ones, etc. No, the math isn't hard. No, it doesn't require a
> calculator. But for a large number of languages it can still be hairy.
Ah, but that's half the fun!!!
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 19:10:28 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions
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--
--------Guy Hoyle wrote:
> What about the times he is turned off? He then only exists as patterns of
>data stored in the computer.
When can he be turned off? If it is by self will or by somebody giving
the right commands, try a triggered dimensional teleport into the computer. If
other things can turn him off like power failures or hard disk head crash, same
thing, different triggers.
---------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Bubble-Boy
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 22:03:13 -0800
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On Friday, February 27, 1998 11:41 AM, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
<snip>
>>
>> Since he can dispel them at will, Uncontrolled would either be
>> inappropriate, or he would have to have a powerful Dispel, as well.
>
> There's nothing wrong with him being able to turn off his own
>Uncontrolled powers. Just make that one of the "set of conditions"
that
>will stop the uncontrolled power.
>
Doh!
I'll shut up for a while, now.
Filksinger
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 00:45:23 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: There's an idea: re:Used HERO for sale
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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> Can't you just see that in an over-the-top campaign?
>
> "Used hero for sale. Good vs. Evil Overlords, Mutant Hellbeasts, and
> Giggling Sociopaths. Only 50 points in Disads still remaining. Comes
> with 2 DNPCs. Ask about base and vehicles at low additional cost."
Actually, in a more serious light this is the motiff of a current
Marvel
comic "Heroes for Hire".
--
Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role
Playing
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Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 01:02:17 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
Subject: Re: Power Supply Man
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> > > > Power Supply Man can use his personal energy to power any kind of device
> > > > that requires power. He's essentially a living battery, but not just for
> > > > electrical devices.
> > >
> > > Aid. But I don't have my books handy, so I'm not sure if there is an
> > >
> > a +2 or something like that for 'aid anything' ? However, I think aid would
> > actually only increase the 'effect' of the aided object, which doesn't make
> > sense to me when we're talking about supplying power for an unplugged
> television. Maybe aid to the endurance reserve for the device ?
For common items with no combat effect, Change Environment.
For combat effects, a VPP and sometimes a Transform.
--
Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing
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Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 01:07:51 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
Subject: Re: Good ideas turned bad?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> Anyone up to sharing stories of the worst 'good idea turned bad' they've
> had happen to them?
>
"Blue Booking"From the Strike Force suppliment.
Blue Booking is like playing a PBeM in person.
Instead of talking and gesturing your character's action,
you write them down in a notebook and then pass the notebook on to the
proper
person.
I tried it once in 1990 and had my players get up and walk out after
about 20
minutes of note taking.
--
Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Fw: Power Supply Man
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 01:13:44 -0800
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For some reason my SMTP server didn't like this message, so I'm
sending it again.
-----Original Message-----
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Friday, February 27, 1998 10:11 PM
Subject: Re: Power Supply Man
>I would probably allow an SFX of "power supplies for devices which
>require outside power", and allow an Aid on that power supply. An
>END/END Reserve Aid would also work.
>
>Filksinger
>
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Tim R. Gilberg\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 98 09:53:52
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Fantasy Hero Suppliments
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On Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:46:56 -0600 (CST), Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
> Does anyone know off-hand what ICE Rolemaster suppliments included
>Fantasy Hero information?
Only the Shadow World ones, and support is sporadic. The best one is
The Star Crown Empire. They should have included this with the Fantasy
Hero sourcebook instead of The Western Shores.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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Subject: Re: Hunt Me!
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From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 09:48:20 EST
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>>Mind Control:
>> Hunt Me, Viper members only, area effect extra radius (the world),
>10d6
>>
>> Which is technically what the Hunted disad does.
>
> Along a similar line, a while ago I was trying to work out a Power
>(in a
>magical item) that would send a telepathic message to all of a
>character's
>Hunters telling them exactly where he is. Does anyone have any
>suggestions
>of how to do this in mechanical terms? (Other than "plot device,"
>please.)
I don't have my book handy, so this might be illegal; but how about
Detect w/Sense and tons of range to find the hunters, followed by Mind
Link (limited group - the found hunters), one message - "I'm over here!"
Leah
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From: "\"John Desmarais\" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
\"Tim R. Gilberg\"" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 98 15:14:13
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Fantasy Hero Suppliments
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On Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:46:56 -0600 (CST), Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
> Does anyone know off-hand what ICE Rolemaster suppliments included
>Fantasy Hero information?
All of the Campaign Classics books (Robin Hood, Mythic Greece, Vikings, Pirates,
Ancient Egypt) as well as all of the Shadow World material (no way I can remember the
name of all of them).
To the best of my knowledge, none of the MERP stuff had FH stats, nor did the core
Rolemaster material (at least, none that I bought).
-=>John D.
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From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 98 15:16:06
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Power Supply Man
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On Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:35:21 -0600 (CST), Curt Hicks wrote:
>
>
>Power Supply Man can use his personal energy to power any kind of device
>that requires power. He's essentially a living battery, but not just for
>electrical devices.
>
>How would this be modelled ?
Since virtually all energy that "powers stuff" is modeled as Endurance in the
Champions, all you would need would be an END Aid.
-=>John D.
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Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 10:16:51 -0500
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Fantasy Hero Suppliments
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On Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:46:56 -0600 (CST), Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
> Does anyone know off-hand what ICE Rolemaster suppliments included
>Fantasy Hero information?
The Campaign Classics sourcebooks included both Rolemaster and
Fantasy Hero information for a number of interesting settings.
They're beautifully researched, for the most part, and seem to
me like the kind of thing Hero should have been doing with their
source material all along.
Mythic Greece was the first of the campaign classics series, and
probably the best. It does a great job of capturing the feel of
Greek myths. The characters are most likely to be _heroes_ in the
original sense of the word, which is to say demi-gods. The
classical material is right on, and fairly thorough. Running a FH
game with this material, you should be able to avoid the trap
of a stereotypical D&D-ish world with Greek set dressing; it does
a good job of presenting basic Greek ideas and values, and backing
them up with rules constructions.
Robin Hood was the second one, I think, and is just about as good
as Mythic Greece. In fact, I'd recommend it to anyone using even
a pseudo-Medieval England as a setting. It gets into some
details that often get glossed over, including (this being a
Robin Hood supplement) taxes.
Just last night, I started a FH 17th Century pirate game, and I've
made extensive use of the Campaign Classics Pirates book. The
Fantasy Hero Companion II sea combat rules were lifted straight
from this book. The source material is excellent, giving detailed
information about ships, pirate culture, and the world during the
Age of Piracy. I'm looking forward to Pirate Hero (or whatever it's
going to be called) which I've heard rumors of, but it will have
to be very good if it's going to top this sourcebook.
The Vikings sourcebook was a little bit of a letdown for me. It
does have some excellent ideas for structuring a game like a
Norse saga, pacing events over years and even generations. I
think the research could have been a bit more thorough, though; I
would have appreciated more information on the different tribes
and different countries and some more historical detail. Still,
it's a worthwhile book.
Finally, there was Ancient Egypt. This book compares badly with
the rest of the theory. While most of the Campaign Classics were
strong on both research and an authentic "feel", Ancient Egypt
is based on observations like "Djinn are like elves" and "pyramids
are like dungeons." Apparently this was written by a D&D-er who
was looking for some new monsters. Perhaps it was just as well that
this was the last book of the Campaign Classics series.
One caution: most (or perhaps all, I forget) of these books were
published prior to the 4th edition rules, so naturally some of
the write-ups aren't quite kosher anymore. Nevertheless, I _highly_
recommend them. It took Hero years to figure out that setting sells
more than a system, and when they did they produced a new system;
if you ask me, they should have been doing stuff like this all
along. It certainly made the ICE alliance worthwhile.
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From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 98 15:17:33
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Fantasy Hero Suppliments
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On Sat, 28 Feb 1998 10:16:51 -0500, BILL SVITAVSKY wrote:
>
>On Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:46:56 -0600 (CST), Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>>
>> Does anyone know off-hand what ICE Rolemaster suppliments included
>>Fantasy Hero information?
>
>The Campaign Classics sourcebooks included both Rolemaster and
>Fantasy Hero information for a number of interesting settings.
>They're beautifully researched, for the most part, and seem to
>me like the kind of thing Hero should have been doing with their
>source material all along.
>
>Mythic Greece was the first of the campaign classics series, and
>probably the best. It does a great job of capturing the feel of
>Greek myths. The characters are most likely to be _heroes_ in the
>original sense of the word, which is to say demi-gods. The
>classical material is right on, and fairly thorough. Running a FH
>game with this material, you should be able to avoid the trap
>of a stereotypical D&D-ish world with Greek set dressing; it does
>a good job of presenting basic Greek ideas and values, and backing
>them up with rules constructions.
>
>Robin Hood was the second one, I think, and is just about as good
>as Mythic Greece. In fact, I'd recommend it to anyone using even
>a pseudo-Medieval England as a setting. It gets into some
>details that often get glossed over, including (this being a
>Robin Hood supplement) taxes.
>
>Just last night, I started a FH 17th Century pirate game, and I've
>made extensive use of the Campaign Classics Pirates book. The
>Fantasy Hero Companion II sea combat rules were lifted straight
>from this book. The source material is excellent, giving detailed
>information about ships, pirate culture, and the world during the
>Age of Piracy. I'm looking forward to Pirate Hero (or whatever it's
>going to be called) which I've heard rumors of, but it will have
>to be very good if it's going to top this sourcebook.
>
>The Vikings sourcebook was a little bit of a letdown for me. It
>does have some excellent ideas for structuring a game like a
>Norse saga, pacing events over years and even generations. I
>think the research could have been a bit more thorough, though; I
>would have appreciated more information on the different tribes
>and different countries and some more historical detail. Still,
>it's a worthwhile book.
>
>Finally, there was Ancient Egypt. This book compares badly with
>the rest of the theory. While most of the Campaign Classics were
>strong on both research and an authentic "feel", Ancient Egypt
>is based on observations like "Djinn are like elves" and "pyramids
>are like dungeons." Apparently this was written by a D&D-er who
>was looking for some new monsters. Perhaps it was just as well that
>this was the last book of the Campaign Classics series.
>
>One caution: most (or perhaps all, I forget) of these books were
>published prior to the 4th edition rules, so naturally some of
>the write-ups aren't quite kosher anymore. Nevertheless, I _highly_
>recommend them. It took Hero years to figure out that setting sells
>more than a system, and when they did they produced a new system;
>if you ask me, they should have been doing stuff like this all
>along. It certainly made the ICE alliance worthwhile.
Aaron Allston has posted 4th edition changes for Mythic Greece on his web site.
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 98 15:20:45
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Hunt Me!
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Sat, 28 Feb 1998 09:48:20 EST, Leah L Watts wrote:
>>>Mind Control:
>>> Hunt Me, Viper members only, area effect extra radius (the world),
>>10d6
>>>
>>> Which is technically what the Hunted disad does.
>>
>> Along a similar line, a while ago I was trying to work out a Power
>>(in a
>>magical item) that would send a telepathic message to all of a
>>character's
>>Hunters telling them exactly where he is. Does anyone have any
>>suggestions
>>of how to do this in mechanical terms? (Other than "plot device,"
>>please.)
>
>I don't have my book handy, so this might be illegal; but how about
>Detect w/Sense and tons of range to find the hunters, followed by Mind
>Link (limited group - the found hunters), one message - "I'm over here!"
Since you can have DF: (Un)holy Aura, how about DF: Aura of Ineffable
Location?
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 12:13:06 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Fantasy Hero Suppliments
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> > Does anyone know off-hand what ICE Rolemaster suppliments included
> >Fantasy Hero information?
>
> Only the Shadow World ones, and support is sporadic. The best one is
> The Star Crown Empire. They should have included this with the Fantasy
> Hero sourcebook instead of The Western Shores.
Only if it wasn't covered elsewhere. I'd rather have a previously
unpublished setting in any book I buy. Anyone know what Shadow World
books exist?
-Tim Gilberg
-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
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Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:19:50 -0500 (EST)
From: John Fabian Ceballos <ceballos@eecs.umich.edu>
cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
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On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, David Stallard wrote:
> Another common trend I've seen in my games is that players will put all
> their attack powers (basically, powers that you only use one at a time)
> into a Multipower (usually with only Ultra slots), and all of their other
> powers (which you want to use along with others, such as defensive or
> movement powers) into an Elemental Control. I haven't found anything to
> say this is illegal, but it's obviously a way to squeeze more value out of
> your starting points. Has anyone else seen this trend? Is it discouraged,
> or perfectly fine?
>
I would say that this is not bad as long as the players can justify as to
why they need to do it that way and how it fits in with the character.
I've seen where they have a powered armor and have multipowers pools for
offensive and defensive weapons. So, if they can't justify why it should
be that way and how it fits into the character then i discourage them from
doing it.
--
John Fabian Ceballos
ceballos@eecs.umich.edu
http://www.eecs.umich.edu/~ceballos
PGP fingerprint: 5D D1 50 7E 0B C7 BA 5A A3 5B 60 F4 6A 1A 25 04
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com>
Subject: Re: Good ideas turned bad?
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 14:53:12 -0600
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One of our spider-based characters squirted a bunch of web fluid under the
thieves' getaway car before going in after them. Later when the battle
raged outside, he tried to pick up the car and throw it at them to achieve
an area affect physical attack with a chance of an explosion. He forgot he
webbed the car down and couldn't even budge it. A villain then hit the car
with an attack and blew up the car in his face. He was out for the rest of
the combat.
Alan
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com>
Subject: Re: Power Supply Man
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:00:06 -0600
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>Power Supply Man can use his personal energy to power any kind of device
>that requires power. He's essentially a living battery, but not just for
>electrical devices.
>
>How would this be modelled ?
>
>Curt Hicks
Either an AID to END or END Battery could work, but then how do you
determine which to use? You could allow the AID to work against both END
from an END battery or regular END but only allow it to AID up to starting
value and call it a plus 0 effect.
Alan
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com>
Subject: Re: Hunt Me!
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:05:18 -0600
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> Along a similar line, a while ago I was trying to work out a Power (in a
>magical item) that would send a telepathic message to all of a character's
>Hunters telling them exactly where he is. Does anyone have any suggestions
>of how to do this in mechanical terms? (Other than "plot device," please.)
>---
>Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
Images, Sound, large area effect, with limitation "Heard only by hunters."
Alan
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com>
Subject: Re: Visible? (was Power Frameworks)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:07:28 -0600
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>> wouldn't the visible limitation be any good. Anything that doesn't
normally
>> use END doesn't have to have a special effect. The Visible limitation is
>
> Has to have a special effect. Doesn't have to have a "visible" special
>effect. Any GM who let's in something lacking a special effect is missing
the
>whole point. :)
>
>Rook
Sorry, mistakenly used real world definition of "special effects" instead of
game definition.
Alan
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Power Supply Man
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "CH" == Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> writes:
SSR> Define what you mean by "requires power".
[...]
CH> however, I was also thinking about stuff that needs fuel, e.g. gasoline
CH> powered vehicles, steam-powered locomotives etc. I realize that for
CH> vehicles I could just use telekinesis to move them instead...
That is the point: you have to define the special effects before you can
choose powers to create those effects. The more thoroughly you nail down
exactly what the character can do, the easier it is to develop a list of
powers that covers those effects.
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Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 19:56:27 -0600
From: Mike Whitney <mwhitney@swbell.net>
Subject: Re: Good ideas turned bad?
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Remnant wrote:
> One of our spider-based characters squirted a bunch of web fluid under the
> thieves' getaway car before going in after them.
(chuckle) I can top that.
We were in our HQ mansion, a well known landmark. During a photo-shoot with
the local media (we had just nabbed some troublesome baddies), the Mafia sent
some of their thugs to pay us a visit in a limo. Up the big circular drive
they came, and then started lobbing grenades at us. Several of us dove on the
grenades, while the limo hit the accelerator. Spectre, our heavily shrouded
undead member, leapt in front of the speeding limo, and punched his fists into
the radiator. He didn't have the strength to stop the vehicle, and it
continued forward...driving up and over the hapless Spectre, who couldn't get
his hands free from the radiator. We could hear bones snapping. Amp and
Firestorm, electrical and fire projectors, decided to help out...Firestorm lets
rip with an entangle on the tires, while Amp zorts off with a burst of
electricity. The gas tank explodes from the heat, setting Spectre on
fire...oh...not good! Spectre and fire don't mix! The goons dive out of the
car, and then the Big Box of Grenades inside go off...BOOM!!! Bits of goon and
Spectre all over the place. Did I mention that Spectre and sunlight didn't
mix, either? Wasn't much left of his overcoat, hat and cape to keep the
sunlight off of his smouldering torso and arm. Luckily for him, Firestorm
covered him with her cape, and we got him down into the dark basement, where he
could slowly regenerate.
Spectre didn't try to stop speeding cars after that. :)
Mike
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Resisting Teleport
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>>>>> "DA" == Douglas Alger <dalger@cisco.com> writes:
DA> I seem to remember reading that you could use Teleport to resist being
DA> teleported by another person, with whoever had the most inches winning.
Considering that Teleportation is not used as an attack, one cannot use it
against someone else without their consent. Movement powers with the UBO
advantage may be used as attacks, but UBO requires that you specify a
reasonably common defense against the power. I would probably not
consider "having more inches of Teleportation than I" to be a reasonably
common defense.
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Date: Thursday, June 03, 1999 12:15 PM