Week Ending March 7, 1998
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From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 12:44:51 +1000 (EST)
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Subject: Re: Resisting Teleport
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At 08:56 PM 2/28/98 -0500, you wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "DA" == Douglas Alger <dalger@cisco.com> writes:
>
>DA> I seem to remember reading that you could use Teleport to resist being
>DA> teleported by another person, with whoever had the most inches winning.
>
>Considering that Teleportation is not used as an attack, one cannot use it
>against someone else without their consent. Movement powers with the UBO
>advantage may be used as attacks, but UBO requires that you specify a
>reasonably common defense against the power. I would probably not
>consider "having more inches of Teleportation than I" to be a reasonably
>common defense.
>

you mean UAO, right?



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>PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin.
> \
>
>

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From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 13:06:15 +1000 (EST)
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Subject: Re: Good ideas turned bad?
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At 07:56 PM 2/28/98 -0600, you wrote:

okies. . how this- fresh from a game session last night. Dunno if it
qualifies. .
upon realising he was filthy rich, clarence the brick decided to
spend up big after a sucessful battle. First he ordered a limo and a monster
truck,
which he insisted had to be airdropped to a grid point just behind his house
at a certain
time, as part of a plan to humiliate a rival. THEN the whole team got. .
.kinda carried
away with the money-spending game anbd decided to RENOVATE, and ended up
adding a whole
section to the BACK of the house. . . . yes, by this time they'd completly
forgotten
about the vehicular airdrop and were busy trying out their new in ground. .
. GLASS WALLED
pool when the monster truck joined them in the shallow end. the walls burst
and flodded the
underground disco, and the rest is kinda blurry. . . .

I think bob the werecat summed it up- 'y'know i get the feeling there's a
big sign on
pluto that says "third planet on the right- laugh as you go" '






>
>
>Remnant wrote:
>
>> One of our spider-based characters squirted a bunch of web fluid under the
>> thieves' getaway car before going in after them.
>
>(chuckle) I can top that.
>
>We were in our HQ mansion, a well known landmark. During a photo-shoot with
>the local media (we had just nabbed some troublesome baddies), the Mafia sent
>some of their thugs to pay us a visit in a limo. Up the big circular drive
>they came, and then started lobbing grenades at us. Several of us dove on the
>grenades, while the limo hit the accelerator. Spectre, our heavily shrouded
>undead member, leapt in front of the speeding limo, and punched his fists into
>the radiator. He didn't have the strength to stop the vehicle, and it
>continued forward...driving up and over the hapless Spectre, who couldn't get
>his hands free from the radiator. We could hear bones snapping. Amp and
>Firestorm, electrical and fire projectors, decided to help out...Firestorm lets
>rip with an entangle on the tires, while Amp zorts off with a burst of
>electricity. The gas tank explodes from the heat, setting Spectre on
>fire...oh...not good! Spectre and fire don't mix! The goons dive out of the
>car, and then the Big Box of Grenades inside go off...BOOM!!! Bits of goon and
>Spectre all over the place. Did I mention that Spectre and sunlight didn't
>mix, either? Wasn't much left of his overcoat, hat and cape to keep the
>sunlight off of his smouldering torso and arm. Luckily for him, Firestorm
>covered him with her cape, and we got him down into the dark basement, where he
>could slowly regenerate.
>
>Spectre didn't try to stop speeding cars after that. :)
>
>Mike
>
>
>

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X-Sender: dalger@thyme.cisco.com
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 19:54:21 -0800
From: Douglas Alger <dalger@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Resisting Teleport
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>>Considering that Teleportation is not used as an attack, one cannot use it
>>against someone else without their consent. Movement powers with the UBO
>>advantage may be used as attacks, but UBO requires that you specify a
>>reasonably common defense against the power. I would probably not
>>consider "having more inches of Teleportation than I" to be a reasonably
>>common defense.
>>
>
>you mean UAO, right?

Yes... I the Teleport has the UAO advantage.

The special effect is creating a wormhole, and dropping it on someone to
send them a distance away. Defenses include Density or Knockback Resistance
(to resist the pull of the portal) or FTL (being able to exceed the speed
of light and therefore avoid the wormhole's effect).

I also seemed to remember an old rule about "resisting" being teleported
against your will, and was trying to find it.

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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Good ideas turned bad?
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 20:27:58 -0800
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On Friday, February 27, 1998 2:38 PM, Todd Hanson wrote:


>Anyone up to sharing stories of the worst 'good idea turned bad'
they've
>had happen to them?
>
Unlike the other stories I've seen, this one was as a GM.

I had a group of players, usually fairly clever and inventive, who
occasionally made some downright silly mistakes. (Wizard, remembering
one of his reputations, shouts out, "I am the great Horansho!",
whereupon the local king's guard reply, "The regicide?!?!":) Upon this
occasion, I was just starting a campaign where one of the players was
the hidden heir to the throne, and the campaign revolved around
throwing out the evil dark lord.

At the beginning of the campaign, the young prince, his wizardly
mentor, the grizzled veteran/bodyguard/trainer, and the local rogue
who wants to turn good come into town. Shortly after arriving, the
wizard meets one of his oldest, most trusted friends, who is stunned
and very happy to see them. The friend tell of how his castle had been
taken, his daughter kidnapped, and their worst enemy short of the evil
dark lord himself had put a spell upon her so that she though he was
her father. Additionally, the wizard himself was being traced
magically, so he couldn't recognize her, and everyone in the vicinity
of the castle was so frightened of the evil wizard that they would
report anyone who came near.

The heroes offered to help save the young lady. Their friend offered
them a spelled necklace to temporarily free the young lady from the
evil wizard's control, and an air elemental that, upon being freed
from his bottle would whisk them to safety.

They snuck past a number of locals, (forgetting that the wizard could
question them and then Mind Control them into forgetting everything),
crept silently into the castle, and reached the young lady without
incident. I, getting desperate, have the young lady's maid in waiting
wake up and scream. The heroes escape out the window, and using
strength, climbing, and flight escape over the wall. Me, more
desperate, send numerous guards after them with fast horses. Finally,
I trap the heroes, and force them to release the air elemental.

It was the only way I could think of to prevent them from kidnapping
the young woman, turning her over to the evil wizard, and eating a
poisoned banquet. The evil demon trapped within the bottle convinced
them that they had made a mistake, and the young lady was returned
without harm.

I should have taken this as an omen.:)

Filksinger

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Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 00:35:19 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
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At 05:27 PM 2/27/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>How does Distinctive Features affect other characters?
Causes Extreme Reaction, pg 121, BBB.

>How does "Physical
>Limitation: crippled" affect some people?
It doesn't. Now would "PhysLim: women hate character." That's my point.

>I picked out Physical Limitation for a couple of reasons. Most
>importantly, Physical Limitations are disadvantages that characters cannot
>overcome by directed effort. There is nothing that a character with
>"Phys.: Hated by women" can do about it. They do, and let them invent
>their own reasons for it.

Nor can you do something about a distinctive feature if it is bought Not
Concealable, Extreme. I think I prefer that method of modelling a
character "hated on sight by others".

Joe


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Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 00:44:25 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Hunt Me!
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 07:16 PM 2/27/98 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> I'm leaning toward the Distinctive Feature, Extreme Reaction, construct
>> people have suggested. But, PhysLim is just silly. PhysLim should only be
>> used to describe things that you cannot do. "Be liked by women" stretches
>> the intention of "cannot do".
>
> That's your interpretation and your interpretation only. Phys Lim
>is actually for things you can't avoid with an Ego roll, on lowest terms.
>This works fine for this efffect.

What?!?!? Physical Limitations can be overcome with Ego Rolls? "Doctor, I
can walk!!!" "How'd that happen?" "I rolled a 7!" I assume you thought
PhysLim meant PsyLim, i.e. Psychological Limitation.

Joe


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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Hunt Me!
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 22:26:54 -0800
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On Saturday, February 28, 1998 8:55 PM, Joe Mucchiello wrote:


>At 07:16 PM 2/27/98 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>>
>>> I'm leaning toward the Distinctive Feature, Extreme Reaction,
construct
>>> people have suggested. But, PhysLim is just silly. PhysLim
should only be
>>> used to describe things that you cannot do. "Be liked by women"
stretches
>>> the intention of "cannot do".
>>
>> That's your interpretation and your interpretation only. Phys Lim
>>is actually for things you can't avoid with an Ego roll, on lowest
terms.
>>This works fine for this efffect.
>
>What?!?!? Physical Limitations can be overcome with Ego Rolls?
"Doctor, I
>can walk!!!" "How'd that happen?" "I rolled a 7!" I assume you
thought
>PhysLim meant PsyLim, i.e. Psychological Limitation.


Uh, no. He said that PhysLim is used to describe things which _cannot_
be overcome with Ego rolls. You misunderstood him.

Filksinger

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Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 00:28:23 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Hunt Me!
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> > That's your interpretation and your interpretation only. Phys Lim
> >is actually for things you can't avoid with an Ego roll, on lowest terms.
> >This works fine for this efffect.
>
> What?!?!? Physical Limitations can be overcome with Ego Rolls? "Doctor, I
> can walk!!!" "How'd that happen?" "I rolled a 7!" I assume you thought
> PhysLim meant PsyLim, i.e. Psychological Limitation.

No, I meant PhysLim, i.e. Physical Limitation. Read my comment
again. For things you _can't_ avoid with an Ego roll.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 04:48:55 -0600
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: Classic Comic Cliches...
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On 3/3/98, at 4:23 PM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> The mantle of a slain (or otherwise "retired") villain has been taken up
>by a mysterious newcomer.

Why is it always the mantle? Why not the andirons, or the chimney, or even the logs themselves?

Ba-da-boom!


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Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 08:42:58 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Good ideas turned bad?
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The Portland Champions, led by Captain Glory, were charging into
Mechanon's base, having just discovered it. We got in fairly easily, and
were riding an elevator down to a lower level.
When the elevator doors opened, we clearly saw a rear view of Mecahnon
himself. Cap (played by me) shouted, "Open fire!" Every hero with a
ranged attack (eight out of the ten heroes present) did so, at full force.
That poor cardboard cutout didn't stand a chance.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 08:46:09 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Hunt Me!
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At 03:20 PM 2/28/1998, qts wrote:
>Since you can have DF: (Un)holy Aura, how about DF: Aura of Ineffable
>Location?

Considering that it's effectively a curse, that might be sensible;
however, as I've mentioned in passing elsewhere, I also want to make it
Sticky.
---
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Subject: Re: Resisting Teleport
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From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 11:58:43 EST
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>The special effect is creating a wormhole, and dropping it on someone
>to
>send them a distance away. Defenses include Density or Knockback
>Resistance
>(to resist the pull of the portal) or FTL (being able to exceed the
>speed
>of light and therefore avoid the wormhole's effect).
>
>I also seemed to remember an old rule about "resisting" being
>teleported
>against your will, and was trying to find it.

Found it -- it's in Champions III. If someone uses Teleport UAO against
a target with Teleport, the target can sacrifice his next phase to resist
the Teleport. If the target has more inches of Teleport than the
attacker, nothing happens. If the attacker has more inches of Teleport,
subtract half the target's range from the attacker's range. (The typo
fairies were very busy on Champs III, this is my best interpretation of
the section.) To quote the example given:

"An attacker with 20" of Teleport usable against others tries to attack a
target with 15" of Teleportation who uses his Teleportation to resist.
Since the attacker's range is greater than the target's range the
attacker may Teleport him. But the maximum range the defender can be
Teleported is 20" - (15/2) = 12". If the attacker tries to Teleport his
target 12" or less he will be successful. But, if he tries to Teleport
the target 13" or more he will fail. Of course, both characters could
push their movement in an attempt to Teleport farther or resist
Teleportation."

Leah

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Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 12:53:11 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Hunt Me!
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At 10:26 PM 2/28/98 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>On Saturday, February 28, 1998 8:55 PM, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>>At 07:16 PM 2/27/98 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm leaning toward the Distinctive Feature, Extreme Reaction,
>construct
>>>> people have suggested. But, PhysLim is just silly. PhysLim
>should only be
>>>> used to describe things that you cannot do. "Be liked by women"
>stretches
>>>> the intention of "cannot do".
>>>
>>> That's your interpretation and your interpretation only. Phys Lim
>>>is actually for things you can't avoid with an Ego roll, on lowest
>terms.
>>>This works fine for this efffect.
>>
>>What?!?!? Physical Limitations can be overcome with Ego Rolls?
>"Doctor, I
>>can walk!!!" "How'd that happen?" "I rolled a 7!" I assume you
>thought
>>PhysLim meant PsyLim, i.e. Psychological Limitation.
>
>
>Uh, no. He said that PhysLim is used to describe things which _cannot_
>be overcome with Ego rolls. You misunderstood him.

Oops. My mistake. Though I don't think I like Tim's distinction. Phys
Lim, I feel, should be for things that you cannot do. Ever. Period.

I don't like Tim's negative definition: PhysLim: Things that cannot be
avoided with characteristic roll. They lead to misunderstandings. Like
mine above.

Joe

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Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 10:20:44 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Good ideas turned bad?
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-- Douglas Alger wrote:
>
> Several years ago, a player in our group had a hero named Inviant, who was
> an invisible giant. (A decidely odd combination, since this was back in the
> days when Growth normally added to your Presence. Anyway...)
>
> During one session, a news helicopter was struck in combat by a villain and
> crashed into a skyscraper, knocking out its pilot and passengers. Inviant,
> wanting to make sure everyone was OK, carefully pulled the trapped copter
> out of the building, whereupon it's now-free rotor blade whipped around and
> whacked him in the side of the face.
>
> Normally a durable fellow, Inviant came within a few pips of being
> summarily beheaded.

I would have howled blue murder if this had happened to me. There is no
way for a standard helicopter to even have any blades still attached after running
into a building let alone having an intact drive train to have them still be able
to turn.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 10:26:02 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Hunt Me!
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Leah L Watts wrote:
> I don't have my book handy, so this might be illegal; but how about
> Detect w/Sense and tons of range to find the hunters, followed by Mind
> Link (limited group - the found hunters), one message - "I'm over here!"

The problem with that is that the targets must want to establish the link.
While it may well be that this is the case, getting them to agree at the time
could be hard. Mind link is also a two way street.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------


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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 01 Mar 98 18:26:40
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Hunt Me!
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On Sun, 01 Mar 1998 08:46:09 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:

>At 03:20 PM 2/28/1998, qts wrote:
>>Since you can have DF: (Un)holy Aura, how about DF: Aura of Ineffable
>>Location?
>
> Considering that it's effectively a curse, that might be sensible;
>however, as I've mentioned in passing elsewhere, I also want to make it
>Sticky.

Ah, I didn't spot that.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 10:32:12 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Hunt Me!
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-- Bob Greenwade wrote:
> Along a similar line, a while ago I was trying to work out a Power (in a
> magical item) that would send a telepathic message to all of a character's
> Hunters telling them exactly where he is. Does anyone have any suggestions
> of how to do this in mechanical terms? (Other than "plot device," please.)

How about mind scan, usable against others, only against characters
hunteds, to be used to target character only and throw in enough extra range
if that is a facter and enough pluses on the mind scan to counter any area
modifiers. The only problem with this construct is that useable against
others may have a line of sight restriction which would have to brought
around.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "JM" == Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> writes:

>> How does "Physical Limitation: crippled" affect some people?

JM> It doesn't. Now would "PhysLim: women hate character." That's my
JM> point.

Then I suggest you talk to a friend of mine that has received serious death
threats because he has to wear hearing aids.

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Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
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At 05:45 PM 3/1/98 -0500, Rat wrote:
>>>>>> "JM" == Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> writes:
>>> How does "Physical Limitation: crippled" affect some people?
>JM> It doesn't. Now would "PhysLim: women hate character." That's my
>JM> point.
>Then I suggest you talk to a friend of mine that has received serious death
>threats because he has to wear hearing aids.

Huh? Who from? I don't want to make light of this but anyone who would
hate your friend has because he wears a hearing aid has the PsyLim "Hates
The Hearing Impared", or "Hates the Crippled and Infirmed", or just plain
"Hates Hearing Aid Wearers". Your friend's PhysLim: "Requires Hearing Aid
to Hear" does not make people hate him. Anyone who hates your friend just
because he is impared, has a PsyLim causing that hatred. The hatred is not
inherent in your friend's hearing problem.

Likewise, "women hate character" is not a PhysLim. I've definately settled
on Distinctive Feature as the best way to model this, since that is one of
the few Disads which can cause a reaction, in someone you've NEVER MET
BEFORE, which does not have to play off of their PsyLims. (The others
being Reputation, Public Identity, possibly Rivalry, and, of course,
Unluck :-)

Joe

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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Hunt Me!
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 21:49:19 -0800
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Sunday, March 01, 1998 8:53 AM, Joe Mucchiello wrote:


>At 10:26 PM 2/28/98 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
<snip>
>
>Oops. My mistake. Though I don't think I like Tim's distinction.
Phys
>Lim, I feel, should be for things that you cannot do. Ever. Period.


What, exactly, is it that you can't do, ever, if you have Phys Lim:
Bad leg? Nearsighted? Hard of hearing? Only the Total level of Phys
Lim applies to things you _cannot_ do, ever

Filksinger

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Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 22:20:34 -0800
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com>
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com
Organization: None
Subject: Character Requests.
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Okay, first off I'd again like to thank those who sent me "God"
powers for my Dieties campaign nasty I am now pondering what to do with
the character, he/she is going to be a serious force in the campaign, a
presence that will involve the olympian(s) in the campaign with the
other pantheons.
I still plan on posting "Baby Z" when I have completed him/her/them
(now I'm pondering twins.....)
However, the reason for this post is I'm trying to flesh out some
fringe universes...mostly those based on established comic book
universes. I have plenty of Marvel & DC heroes thanks to their
respective games and Sam Bell. What I'm looking for are heroes from the
Malibu, Image, Valiant, and Darkhorse universes. I remembber some
gentleman a few years back posting several Image Characters, does anyone
else have any of these or is this group predominately IMAGE hating.....
Any help would be appreciated.

BTW Just curious, but does anyone remember the MEGATON Comic? Not
Megaton Man, just megaton? The comic usually had three or more stories
the principal characters were Vanguard, Megaton, Ultraman & Ultragirl,
Cyberserker, and possibly others. The thing is that Vanguard was Erik
Larsen's Character and that's where Savage Dragon, Smasher, Mighty Man,
a villain called Mace and some of the other characters from Erik's
little corner of Image came from....I always thought it was pretty cool,
wish I still had those issues, some Image junkie might pay a lot of
money for the first appearace of Dragon....


TTFN
Chad


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X-Sender: voxel@mail.theramp.net
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 06:38:08 -0600
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
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At 01:52 PM 3/2/98 -0800, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>bobby farris writes:
>> I usually use the Elemental Control as a bonus to give players that
>> come up with a good character concept. The problem I am having is with
>> players wanting to put characteristics inside an Elemental control.
>
>Well, they're special powers, so without special permission he can't.

Actually, CHAR bought as Powers are Standard Powers, not Special Powers.
Look it up.

--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html

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Subject: Re: Bubble-Boy
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:38:27 -0500
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From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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On 2/27/98 3:27 PM Tim R. Gilberg (trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu) Said:

> There's nothing wrong with him being able to turn off his own
>Uncontrolled powers. Just make that one of the "set of conditions" that
>will stop the uncontrolled power.

How elegantly munchkinish.

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

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Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:00:03 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Hero Games <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Bubble-Boy
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> > There's nothing wrong with him being able to turn off his own
> >Uncontrolled powers. Just make that one of the "set of conditions" that
> >will stop the uncontrolled power.
>
> How elegantly munchkinish.

Maybe, but quite within the rules. It does have it's
disadvantages -- such as being mind controlled or intimidated into turning
it off.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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X-Sender: dalger@thyme.cisco.com
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 10:30:22 -0800
From: Douglas Alger <dalger@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Good ideas turned bad?
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> I would have howled blue murder if this had happened to me. There is no
>way for a standard helicopter to even have any blades still attached after
running
>into a building let alone having an intact drive train to have them still
be able
>to turn.

We chalked it up to comic book physics.

Cars involved in a collision always explode, the master villain always has
an escape route, and helicopters survive plowing into the side of an office
building. These all offset the unreality of a 75' invisible giant tiptoeing
through downtown and fighting crime...

- Doug

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X-Sender: dalger@thyme.cisco.com
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 10:32:42 -0800
From: Douglas Alger <dalger@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Resisting Teleport
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Thanks, Leah!

- Doug

>Found it -- it's in Champions III. If someone uses Teleport UAO against
>a target with Teleport, the target can sacrifice his next phase to resist
>the Teleport. If the target has more inches of Teleport than the
>attacker, nothing happens. If the attacker has more inches of Teleport,
>subtract half the target's range from the attacker's range. (The typo
>fairies were very busy on Champs III, this is my best interpretation of
>the section.) To quote the example given:
>
>"An attacker with 20" of Teleport usable against others tries to attack a
>target with 15" of Teleportation who uses his Teleportation to resist.
>Since the attacker's range is greater than the target's range the
>attacker may Teleport him. But the maximum range the defender can be
>Teleported is 20" - (15/2) = 12". If the attacker tries to Teleport his
>target 12" or less he will be successful. But, if he tries to Teleport
>the target 13" or more he will fail. Of course, both characters could
>push their movement in an attempt to Teleport farther or resist
>Teleportation."

>Leah
>
>_____________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
>Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
>
>

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Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:38:35 -0500
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On 2/27/98 5:59 PM Tim R. Gilberg (trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu) Said:

>>That doesn't give him more 'skill' in combat, but does make him
>> more able to strike and avoid being struck.
>
> Same thing, different words.

Actually, No.

He would have no more knowledge of where to hit you to make it hurt more
(using CSL's as DC's) and would not be better at hitting you because of
his talent, but only because of his quickness. The difference is probably
to subtle to be accurately modeled in HERO however...

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

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Subject: Re: Power Supply Man
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:38:36 -0500
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From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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On 2/27/98 4:35 PM Curt Hicks (exucurt@exu.ericsson.se) Said:

>Power Supply Man can use his personal energy to power any kind of device
>that requires power. He's essentially a living battery, but not just for
>electrical devices.
>
>How would this be modelled ?

END Battery; UAO; Only vs. Machines, Engines, Electrical Devices, Etc.

Unless you consider organic beings as requiring power...

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "JM" == Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> writes:

JM> Likewise, "women hate character" is not a PhysLim. I've definately
JM> settled on Distinctive Feature as the best way to model this, since
JM> that is one of the few Disads which can cause a reaction, in someone
JM> you've NEVER MET BEFORE, which does not have to play off of their
JM> PsyLims.

Um... I have the impression based on the special effects described that
proximity is required for the disadvantage to come into play. That rules
out your interpretation of Distinctive Features (which I disagree with;
what you are describing now is a Reputation).

I still like the idea of using Physical Limitation. I think it is a
clever, lateral approach to the described character flaw, mostly because it
forces role-playing instead of relying upon dice.

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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should
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Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 18:56:32 +0000
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Good ideas turned bad?
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My character and another one, who were both experts at infiltration, security
systems, and the like broke into the villians base to get evidence from their
computer. We snuck by all the guards and security systems. When we got to
the computer, we each expected the other to get the info. Neither one of us
had any computer skills...

-Mark

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Power Supply Man
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "DF" == David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> writes:

DF> END Battery; UAO; Only vs. Machines, Engines, Electrical Devices, Etc.

Just for clarity, does the limitation apply to the UAO advantage or the
entire power? I mean, it does not really limit the character's use of the
END Reserve, only his ability to use UAO.

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X-Authentication-Warning: snowy.owlnet.rice.edu: chip owned process doing -bs
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:02:45 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: PBeM tips?
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On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote:

> I've been kicking around the idea of starting a Champions PBeM. Without
> doing a lot of lurking around on the web, I thought maybe some of you
> experienced Champs PBeM players/GMs could answer a question for me. How do
> you handle combat? Do you ask players for their general battle plan and
> then run the entire combat yourself, perhaps stopping for more input at a
> critical moment (such as when the bad guys get reinforcements)? Or maybe
> you get an entire turn's worth of actions, resolve them, and ask for the
> next turn? It seems like you have to consolidate it somehow, or combat
> resolution could take forever....

This is how we do it in my PBeM, for combat and everything else. The GM
sends a message updating the PCs on what's going on. With it is a simple
course of actions that the PCs might take, a deadline, and a "resolution"
in time. If the PCs do not respond by the deadline, the clock ticks, and
the default action is followed. Resolution time is taken to perform the
action.

Combat can lend itself to e-mail play. It also adds another exciting
element not possible in live play. Everyone can send in their phase's
actions simultaneously. Furthermore, an active GM can collect responses
and tell the PCs only what their character can see or know. However, in
order to resolve combat quickly, each player must have the discipline to
write at least once a day. Even if nothing is going on for that character,
or the player agrees with the actions of the party or the default action,
they still need to "check in." GMs need to be descriptive enough to tell
all players just about everything they need to know about the combat
environment so that questions will be kept to a minimum. Of course, some
questions may require a perception roll. A good GM will keep an updated
copy of the hexmap on a web site.

Consolidating a turns worth of actions? *That's* a masochistic task.
You're setting yourself up for belligerent players who won't agree with
your interpretation of their character's actions. I believe going phase by
phase is important if you are running a superhero game. If not, do away
with speed and go in 4-6 second turns. You'll be glad you did.

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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "Hero Games" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 98 19:14:32
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Bubble-Boy
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On Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:38:27 -0500, David Fair wrote:

>On 2/27/98 3:27 PM Tim R. Gilberg (trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu) Said:
>
>> There's nothing wrong with him being able to turn off his own
>>Uncontrolled powers. Just make that one of the "set of conditions" that
>>will stop the uncontrolled power.
>
>How elegantly munchkinish.

Agreed - part of the advantage of Uncontrolled is that you don't
control it.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:36:48 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
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On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, bobby farris wrote:

> Hi. I am a gamemaster and am having problems deciding what should go
> into an Elemental Control. I know that I should limit any kind of
> "special" powers, but I wonder what other gamemaster's are allowing.
> I usually use the Elemental Control as a bonus to give players that
> come up with a good character concept. The problem I am having is with
> players wanting to put characteristics inside an Elemental control.
> What brings this up is one of my players wants to play an advanced
> mutant. In the mutant book it gives a package deal for advanced mutants
> and states that advanced mutants have characteristics in the 20-30's
> across the board. He wants to put his charcteristics in a Mutant powers
> Elemental Control. I feel this is kind of power gaming, but I don't know
> what to tell him.

I am an experienced GM, and this is my take on elemental controls. I do
not agree that ECs are or should be a reward for a good character concept.
These are the tenets of my position:

1. As many have said before, a good character concept is a prerequisite
for role-playing, not something extra.

2. Furthermore, the points saved with an EC can be much more than, say, a
package deal, which is a break afforded a set of tightly related skills,
perks,and abilities. ECs can and will save much more than 20%, which for
me is about the limit on such "rewards." Furthermore, the EC doesn't
encourage you or require you to take not-as-useful powers (which are
supposed to be what these point breaks are for)--like the knowledge skills
inherenty in almost all packages.

3. An elemental control is "best" when its slots are the same, or nearly
the same, cost. This isn't necessarily part of good character design, but
might be an example of poor or contrived character design.

So, I have a view of Elemental Control that is different from most
understandings, and in fact what the BBB seems to espouse.

1. Elemental Control is for characters who (gasp) control an element. For
example, a vigilante hero in my campaign, Mr. Frosty, has the ability to
extract kinetic energy from moisture, producing ice. This ability is
similar to Icicle's, one of the examples in the BBB. In most cases,
Elemental Controls are only acceptable for a character who has a single
power that can nevertheless logically produce many effects that are
separate powers in Champions.

2. I expect all the logical points to be covered as slots in the elemental
control. For example, Change Environment, Extra defenses, and Supress make
good EC slots. Mr. Frosty has an EC like this:

EC Ice Formation Power
-1/2 Not in dry conditions
- Icicle Throw (AP RKA)--forms a sharp icicle in his hand and throws it
- Frosty Special (Entangle w/linked continuous NND attack)--encases his
victim in a block of ice.
- Change Environment--make ice sculptures, slippery areas, etc. with his
power, anything minor he could logically do with ice formation.
- Supress fire/heat--extracts kinetic energy from the moisture in the
area, reducing fire/heat effects
- Cold Resistance (Armor vs. ice/cold only)--natural resistance to cold
effects.

3. Because the EC is being used to emulate the effects of a single power
being used in different ways, it now makes sense that the slots ahve the
same or similar costs.

4. Adjustment powers work vs the EC and all its slots, after all, it's the
same power.

5. Characters who have another power can have more than one EC. But I'll
still be looking for the special-effects-only set of powers. The point
break is at least in part so you can afford these less-useful abilities
which the power *should* nevertheless have.

6. I can't really see how "Ice Force Field" or "Ice Running" works with
this basis of the power. Remember, when world mechanics and game mechanics
are in conflict, side with the world mechanics! Mr. Frosty might want to
wear a bulletproof vest, but that will have to come outside the EC.
Alternately, he can entangle himself if the going gets tough and force his
enemies to break through it to get to him. His Cold Resistance slot counts
as a defense against the NND part of his entangle. In other words, SFX,
SFX, SFX.

I would not let someone get away with an EC like "Mutant Powers" or "Magic
Powers," unless in my game world these were manifestations of some
standard ability. Try to get your player to think of how his power(s)
*work*, pseudo-scientifically, and then try to come up with all the
different applications and side effects of that analysis. If you do,
you'll probably have a valid elemental control. HERO is a modelling
system, not a shopping mall. I don't let characters just go pull generic
powers off the HERO shelf and slap them into some framework. They should
be able to describe their powers, and perhaps how they "work" without
reference to any HERO paraphenalia or lingo. Then YOU decide how YOU would
model it, and what other abilities must be purchased. To make up for the
extra (not as useful) abilities, you might grant your player an EC.

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Subject: Re: Power Supply Man
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:08:28 -0500
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From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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On 3/2/98 1:57 PM Stainless Steel Rat (ratinox@peorth.gweep.net) Said:

>DF> END Battery; UAO; Only vs. Machines, Engines, Electrical Devices, Etc.
>
>Just for clarity, does the limitation apply to the UAO advantage or the
>entire power? I mean, it does not really limit the character's use of the
>END Reserve, only his ability to use UAO.

A good point; I had not thought it through quite that clearly, but only
against the UAO advantage would seem to mae sense.

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

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Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:18:14 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: PBeM tips?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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I've been kicking around the idea of starting a Champions PBeM. Without
doing a lot of lurking around on the web, I thought maybe some of you
experienced Champs PBeM players/GMs could answer a question for me. How do
you handle combat? Do you ask players for their general battle plan and
then run the entire combat yourself, perhaps stopping for more input at a
critical moment (such as when the bad guys get reinforcements)? Or maybe
you get an entire turn's worth of actions, resolve them, and ask for the
next turn? It seems like you have to consolidate it somehow, or combat
resolution could take forever....

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 14:31:35 -0600
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net
Organization: Red Bow Antiques
Subject: Elemental Controls.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
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X-UID: 30

Hi. I am a gamemaster and am having problems deciding what should go
into an Elemental Control. I know that I should limit any kind of
"special" powers, but I wonder what other gamemaster's are allowing.
I usually use the Elemental Control as a bonus to give players that
come up with a good character concept. The problem I am having is with
players wanting to put characteristics inside an Elemental control.

What brings this up is one of my players wants to play an advanced
mutant. In the mutant book it gives a package deal for advanced mutants
and states that advanced mutants have characteristics in the 20-30's
across the board. He wants to put his charcteristics in a Mutant powers
Elemental Control. I feel this is kind of power gaming, but I don't know
what to tell him.

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Subject: Re: Bubble-Boy
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:48:53 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
cc: "Hero Games" <champ-l@omg.org>
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On 3/2/98 11:00 AM Tim R. Gilberg (trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu) Said:

>> > There's nothing wrong with him being able to turn off his own
>> >Uncontrolled powers. Just make that one of the "set of conditions" that
>> >will stop the uncontrolled power.
>>
>> How elegantly munchkinish.
>
> Maybe, but quite within the rules. It does have it's
>disadvantages -- such as being mind controlled or intimidated into turning
>it off.

Oh, please. You may allow such a construct in your games, but
Uncontrolled means that the character does not control it; That is the
advantage. That is what you are paying points for; severing the "link"
between the power and the individual.


David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:18:05 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: pod@avalon.net
From: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net>
Subject: Game so far
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org


>>
>>So how has the game gone so far?
>>
>>Mike
>>
>>... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
>>___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR]
>>
>
>So far my game is coming along alright. I have set things up in
>New Olreans of all places. I figure that that is a fairly safe place
>to use for a setting. Being that I have never really heard of anyone
>actually using in another games seting.
>
>So far, my players have had the joy of encountering a small squad of VIPER
agents, rescuing civilians from a burning building and few other minor plot
points have been introduced here and there.
>
>With any luck, all of the players will get together in the next session to
try to foil the primary plot that I am using to get them all together. If
that happens, they may form their own happy little super heroic group or go
about fighting crime on their own.
>
>Characters that are in my campaign so far:
> A Detective based character
> A Gravity based energy character
> A Diamond form character
> A Martial Artist
> A Biological Construct of a 4 armed spider type guy.
>
>That is all.
>
>
House of Spackle
pod@avalon.net

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:26:55 -0500 (EST)
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To: champ-l@omg.org

> >>>>> "JM" == Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> writes:
> JM> Likewise, "women hate character" is not a PhysLim. I've definately
> JM> settled on Distinctive Feature as the best way to model this, since
> JM> that is one of the few Disads which can cause a reaction, in someone
> JM> you've NEVER MET BEFORE, which does not have to play off of their
> JM> PsyLims.
>
> Um... I have the impression based on the special effects described that
> proximity is required for the disadvantage to come into play. That rules
> out your interpretation of Distinctive Features (which I disagree with;
> what you are describing now is a Reputation).

Nowhere, that I know of, does Distinctive Feature say that it works at any
particular range. DF's have to be perceived to be effective, there is
nothing saying that the Extreme reaction (part of DF not Rep) cannot be
based on proximity.

> I still like the idea of using Physical Limitation. I think it is a
> clever, lateral approach to the described character flaw, mostly because it
> forces role-playing instead of relying upon dice.

It is a forced effect on the reacting female character. Most role-players
don't like being told how their character should react. That's why I
prefer dice to describe the effect. Which would you prefer, as a
player?

GM to Player: "When you see him you have a sudden feeling of loathing."
Player to GM: "Why do I hate him? I'm not normally judgemental."
GM to Player: "You just do. Look I know you don't want your character to
hate this person but you have to because it says so here."
-- or --
GM to Player: "When you seeh him you have a sudden feeling of loathing."
Player to GM: "Why do I hate him? I'm not normally judgemental."
GM rolls dice. "I rolled a 36, act as if Mind Controlled, you hate him."
Player plays along knowing an EGO roll is coming.

I've known many people who get annoyed when you tell them to react without
also explaining the game effect. (Or at least hinting at it.)

Joe

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:27:31 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Elemental Controls.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org



> From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)

> I usually use the Elemental Control as a bonus to give players that
> come up with a good character concept. The problem I am having is with
> players wanting to put characteristics inside an Elemental control.
>
> What brings this up is one of my players wants to play an advanced
> mutant. In the mutant book it gives a package deal for advanced mutants
> and states that advanced mutants have characteristics in the 20-30's
> across the board. He wants to put his charcteristics in a Mutant powers
> Elemental Control. I feel this is kind of power gaming, but I don't know
> what to tell him.
>

Tell him that "Mutant powers" is not a valid elemental control in your game.
FWIW, it wouldn't be valid in my game either.

Curt

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 13:29:27 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Physical Limitations Defined
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 12:53 PM 3/1/1998 -0500, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>Oops. My mistake. Though I don't think I like Tim's distinction. Phys
>Lim, I feel, should be for things that you cannot do. Ever. Period.
>
>I don't like Tim's negative definition: PhysLim: Things that cannot be
>avoided with characteristic roll. They lead to misunderstandings. Like
>mine above.

Actually, a Physical Limitation can represent anything that's physically
more difficult, up to and including impossible. Nearsightedness, hardness
of hearing, a damaged leg, or a variety of other things could all be
represented with Physical Limitations without making it all-out impossible
for the character to do things.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 13:30:06 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Hunt Me!
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 06:26 PM 3/1/1998, qts wrote:
>On Sun, 01 Mar 1998 08:46:09 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>>At 03:20 PM 2/28/1998, qts wrote:
>>>Since you can have DF: (Un)holy Aura, how about DF: Aura of Ineffable
>>>Location?
>>
>> Considering that it's effectively a curse, that might be sensible;
>>however, as I've mentioned in passing elsewhere, I also want to make it
>>Sticky.
>
>Ah, I didn't spot that.

Not your fault at all. I didn't mention it until after you'd sent that
out.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 13:33:16 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Hunt Me!
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 10:26 AM 3/1/1998 -0800, Rick Holding wrote:
>Leah L Watts wrote:
>> I don't have my book handy, so this might be illegal; but how about
>> Detect w/Sense and tons of range to find the hunters, followed by Mind
>> Link (limited group - the found hunters), one message - "I'm over here!"
>
> The problem with that is that the targets must want to establish the link.
> While it may well be that this is the case, getting them to agree at the
time
>could be hard. Mind link is also a two way street.

Answering the latter first, it can be Limited so that it only gives
information to the target and not vice-versa.
As for the target wanting the link, I have a hard time visualizing (for
example) Pulsar thinking to himself, "Hm, I'm getting a psychic sense of
Quantum's location. I don't want that, though."
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 13:34:59 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 05:45 PM 3/1/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "JM" == Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> writes:
>
>>> How does "Physical Limitation: crippled" affect some people?
>
>JM> It doesn't. Now would "PhysLim: women hate character." That's my
>JM> point.
>
>Then I suggest you talk to a friend of mine that has received serious death
>threats because he has to wear hearing aids.

That's "DF: Hearing Aid," not a direct effect of the Physical
Limitation: Hearing Impaired.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:39:41 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Curt Hicks wrote:

> > From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
>
> > I usually use the Elemental Control as a bonus to give players that
> > come up with a good character concept. The problem I am having is with
> > players wanting to put characteristics inside an Elemental control.
> >
> > What brings this up is one of my players wants to play an advanced
> > mutant. In the mutant book it gives a package deal for advanced mutants
> > and states that advanced mutants have characteristics in the 20-30's
> > across the board. He wants to put his charcteristics in a Mutant powers
> > Elemental Control. I feel this is kind of power gaming, but I don't know
> > what to tell him.
> >
>
> Tell him that "Mutant powers" is not a valid elemental control in your game.
> FWIW, it wouldn't be valid in my game either.

Same here. Wind powers, fire powers, water control, earth control, even
vampire powers... but nothing a generic as 'mutant powers'. And no
characteristics in an EC.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

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X-Authentication-Warning: xanadu.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:42:13 -0600 (CST)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, bobby farris wrote:

> What brings this up is one of my players wants to play an advanced
> mutant. In the mutant book it gives a package deal for advanced mutants
> and states that advanced mutants have characteristics in the 20-30's
> across the board. He wants to put his charcteristics in a Mutant powers
> Elemental Control. I feel this is kind of power gaming, but I don't know
> what to tell him.

Well, in the Marvel Universe, mutants generally have high endurances - in
Champs this would be high con, bod, and probably PD/ED/Armor as well.

However, I think EC: Mutant Powers is way too broad, since it could
conceivably include every power in the book. ECs boost a select group of
powers determined by their nature, not all powers.

'Mutant Weather Control' would be acceptable, as would 'Mutant
Shapeshifting' - but not 'generic mutant powers' - unless all mutants in
your setting share some abilities or powers, that is.

I'd ask him to redefine his EC to be something that was less broad in
scope.

J

"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:45:11 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org


> I usually use the Elemental Control as a bonus to give players that
> come up with a good character concept. The problem I am having is with
> players wanting to put characteristics inside an Elemental control.

Just say no.

> What brings this up is one of my players wants to play an advanced
> mutant. In the mutant book it gives a package deal for advanced mutants
> and states that advanced mutants have characteristics in the 20-30's
> across the board. He wants to put his charcteristics in a Mutant powers
> Elemental Control. I feel this is kind of power gaming, but I don't know
> what to tell him.


That this is power gaming and that you won't allow it. The
advanced generation mutant package, while not overly powerful in any one
area, gives a very nice set of characteristics and powers. It is
expensive, but provides a wonderful start to a character. However, it
definately does not belong in an EC. An EC would be more specialized
things such as "mutant control of fire" and "mutant telekinisis" and
"mutant shapeshifting".



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:52:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

bobby farris writes:
> I usually use the Elemental Control as a bonus to give players that
> come up with a good character concept. The problem I am having is with
> players wanting to put characteristics inside an Elemental control.

Well, they're special powers, so without special permission he can't. In
general, you can assume that characteristics in an EC, unless they have some
severe limitation, represent munchkinism. Even if I were inclined to allow it,
I would apply the same restriction to stats in an EC as to stats in a
multipower -- you have no figs, and don't get any points for it. I also prefer
to say that all powers in ECs are visible, even if they normally would not be.
>
> What brings this up is one of my players wants to play an advanced
> mutant. In the mutant book it gives a package deal for advanced mutants
> and states that advanced mutants have characteristics in the 20-30's
> across the board. He wants to put his charcteristics in a Mutant powers
> Elemental Control. I feel this is kind of power gaming, but I don't know
> what to tell him.

Tell him 'no'. They're special powers, you don't need to give a good excuse;).
You should probably also tell him 'mutant powers' is not a suitably restricted
concept for an EC.

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X-Sender: shelley@mail.mactyre.net
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 14:00:48 -0800
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <scm@mactyre.net>
Subject: Re: PBeM tips?
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 03:18 PM 3/2/98 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>I've been kicking around the idea of starting a Champions PBeM. Without
>doing a lot of lurking around on the web, I thought maybe some of you
>experienced Champs PBeM players/GMs could answer a question for me. How do
>you handle combat? Do you ask players for their general battle plan and
>then run the entire combat yourself, perhaps stopping for more input at a
>critical moment (such as when the bad guys get reinforcements)? Or maybe
>you get an entire turn's worth of actions, resolve them, and ask for the
>next turn? It seems like you have to consolidate it somehow, or combat
>resolution could take forever....

The way I work PBEM combat is to simply organize my turns a little more
than I normally do. Whereas in a regular day the players send e-mail to
each other and me as they will, during combat turns all e-mail goes only to
me. I will send out a description of what the villains do, then the
players have until 5 PM the following day to respond (to me) with their
actions for the next phase or two (save yourself some time and ask that
they be very descriptive with their actions; you'll only have to deviate if
their actions fail). Then I compile it all, determine what happens, and
send all of that back out. Then they have until 5 the following
afternoon...and on until it's resolved.

It sounds like a lot of work, but honestly, it's not very bad. The longest
I ever had a combat take was four days (and the writeup for the turn was
around 50K of web page -- that's a testimony to the wonderful players I had
at the time.) I determined if the players had the time to commit to the
combat (as well as myself) and if anyone would miss the 5 PM deadline, they
knew they'd forfeit their actions (and so no one ever missed). Since I run
my PBEM turns from Mondays-Thursdays most of the time, compile the turns
myself in Word (for easier posting after they're completed), the only
significant change from my normal schedule was the imposition of the
deadline and insisting that all player mail be filtered through me. While
that did cut down on banter, that could be resolved by letting the players
add dialog after the combat is over.

These rules were employed in my "Golden Gate Guardians PBEM," which has all
of its turns posted at http://www.mactyre.net/scm/pbem/pbem.html. My
current game emphasizes roleplaying on a one on one, one on two level and
doesn't involve much combat (it's almost all investigation), so I don't
need the strictures. But I would recommend that, if you have more than
three players, you come up with a structure for combat or you'll end up
pulling your hair out. =)

Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
http://www.mactyre.net

A flung stone has always been a fool's favorite means of putting himself on
a level with the wise.
-- Edgar Pangborn

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 14:09:44 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

At 02:31 PM 3/2/1998 -0600, bobby farris wrote:
>Hi. I am a gamemaster and am having problems deciding what should go
>into an Elemental Control. I know that I should limit any kind of
>"special" powers, but I wonder what other gamemaster's are allowing.
> I usually use the Elemental Control as a bonus to give players that
>come up with a good character concept. The problem I am having is with
>players wanting to put characteristics inside an Elemental control.
>
> What brings this up is one of my players wants to play an advanced
>mutant. In the mutant book it gives a package deal for advanced mutants
>and states that advanced mutants have characteristics in the 20-30's
>across the board. He wants to put his charcteristics in a Mutant powers
>Elemental Control. I feel this is kind of power gaming, but I don't know
>what to tell him.

I like two rules for ECs that have been posted to this list. One is
mine, and one is not.
The one that is not (I think Tim Gilberg is the one that came up with
it, but I'm not sure) is that ECs should represent different mechanics --
that is, different applications -- for what is essentially the same power.
Ice Control, for instance, should be in an EC, though the character can
create ice armor (Force Field), an ice slide (gliding), an ice fist (Energy
Blast), and numerous other effects. Just so it all falls under one basic
ability.
My own rule, which can be considered an extension of the above even
though the two were developed completely independently, is that when one
Power is Drained (including being Dispelled, Supressed, Transferred from,
or similarly affected), it affects all of the Powers in the EC. If the
Power has more Active Points than twice the Elemental Control, then it only
down normally until it reaches that point; after that, the EC Pool -- and,
as a side effect, each other Power in the EC -- go down at half the rate
that the directly affected Power is reduced. Once the Power is gone, the
other Powers in the EC are essentially stand-alone (non-Frameworked)
Powers, bought for a full cost equal to what they normally cost after the
EC bonus. (If you need a better explanation of that, just ask.)
Now, given these rules, I *might* allow a character to have a bunch of
Characteristics in an EC under the "Mutant Powers" header, but *require* No
Figured Characteristics on all Primary Characteristics in the EC, *and*
make sure the player understands the above rule regarding Drained Powers in
an EC, as well as the fact that STR Drain and STUN Drain are the most
common such abilities.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 14:14:07 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: PBeM tips?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

At 03:18 PM 3/2/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>I've been kicking around the idea of starting a Champions PBeM. Without
>doing a lot of lurking around on the web, I thought maybe some of you
>experienced Champs PBeM players/GMs could answer a question for me. How do
>you handle combat? Do you ask players for their general battle plan and
>then run the entire combat yourself, perhaps stopping for more input at a
>critical moment (such as when the bad guys get reinforcements)? Or maybe
>you get an entire turn's worth of actions, resolve them, and ask for the
>next turn? It seems like you have to consolidate it somehow, or combat
>resolution could take forever....

I haven't run any combats in my Fantasy Hero pbem yet, and don't
anticipate any for a while, but what I expect to do is this:
Before things start heading that direction, I'll be asking each player
for a general tactics sheet -- what this individual does as "default"
tactics under most normal combat circumstances (with "frontal assault" and
"ambush" at the top of the list). This can be amended at any time.
Then, as each combat begins, I ask the player(s) involved for any
special priorities to keep in mind.
Then I just run the combat, giving a pause for critical decisions and
letting them add soliloquies later.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 14:19:17 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
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At 04:26 PM 3/2/1998 -0500, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>> I still like the idea of using Physical Limitation. I think it is a
>> clever, lateral approach to the described character flaw, mostly because
it
>> forces role-playing instead of relying upon dice.
>
>It is a forced effect on the reacting female character. Most role-players
>don't like being told how their character should react. That's why I
>prefer dice to describe the effect. Which would you prefer, as a
>player?
>
>GM to Player: "When you see him you have a sudden feeling of loathing."
>Player to GM: "Why do I hate him? I'm not normally judgemental."
>GM to Player: "You just do. Look I know you don't want your character to
>hate this person but you have to because it says so here."
>-- or --
>GM to Player: "When you seeh him you have a sudden feeling of loathing."
>Player to GM: "Why do I hate him? I'm not normally judgemental."
>GM rolls dice. "I rolled a 36, act as if Mind Controlled, you hate him."
>Player plays along knowing an EGO roll is coming.
>
>I've known many people who get annoyed when you tell them to react without
>also explaining the game effect. (Or at least hinting at it.)

Well, there's always:

GM: "When you see him you have a sudden feeling of loathing."
Player: "Why do I hate him? I'm not normally judgemental."
GM: "You're not sure what it is. It's just a feeling that comes over you."

I've used these sorts of explanations and never been argued with. The
players have always taken it as understood that there's some game effect at
play without being told what it is. After all, the character wouldn't know
the dynamic involved (either game effect or, in many cases, Special Effect).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:24:20 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

> Hi. I am a gamemaster and am having problems deciding what should go
> into an Elemental Control. I know that I should limit any kind of
> The problem I am having is with
> players wanting to put characteristics inside an Elemental control.
>
> What brings this up is one of my players wants to play an advanced
> mutant. In the mutant book it gives a package deal for advanced mutants
> and states that advanced mutants have characteristics in the 20-30's
> across the board. He wants to put his charcteristics in a Mutant powers
> Elemental Control. I feel this is kind of power gaming, but I don't know
> what to tell him.
>
Well... An advanced mutant is a very high point concept. Is it a high
power game? If not the problem is more in the concept than in the way it's
being written up.

As for an actual EC with stats in it. It needs good justification.
Not just something like "I got my strength in an EC cause I have an EC of
'Strong Guy Powers'".

The cardinal rule here is to ask not why the stat belongs in the EC.
If you do that almost anything can be justifiable. After all, being a strong
guy is a logical consistant effect so you should get it right? Not ussually.

The key is to ask why the stat can't be placed outside the EC. Think
about it. A lot harder to answer isn't it? If this condition can be met, allow
it. If not, don't.

It goes against tradition to place stats in EC's, so doing so needs
justification. Putting powers in EC's is however, tradition. So these simply
have to meet the first condition.

Never allow a PC to use a power framework to build a character with
a bigger bang. Allow them to let a player build a character who is more
versitile or more form fitting to a concept.
The difference is subtle; but it's there.

Rook
__
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Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:26:38 -0800 (PST)
X-Sender: nexus@uky.campus.mci.net (Unverified)
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
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I use a somewhat harsh rule on elemental controls that does cut down on
abuse of them quite a bit. Put simple, ECs represent single unified SFX,
more or less a single "Power" that allows a character to do many things,
like for example Weather Control. The EC might have flight, energy blast and
darkness in it but they are all the effect of a single ability/sfx.

I let adjustment powers affect all abilites in an EC at once without the +2
modifier as they are a "single" power. It solely depends on the sfx the
adustment power affects, say mutant powers or magic.

I know violence doesn't solve all problems...
But it sure feels good!
Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:35:03 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Elemental Controls.
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Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> wrote:

> HERO is a modelling system, not a shopping mall.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I REALLY, REALLY like this. Curt

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:40:52 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

> Nowhere, that I know of, does Distinctive Feature say that it works at any
> particular range. DF's have to be perceived to be effective, there is
> nothing saying that the Extreme reaction (part of DF not Rep) cannot be
> based on proximity.
>
> > I still like the idea of using Physical Limitation. I think it is a
>
> It is a forced effect on the reacting female character. Most role-players
> don't like being told how their character should react. That's why I
> prefer dice to describe the effect. Which would you prefer, as a
> player?
>
> GM to Player: "When you see him you have a sudden feeling of loathing."
> Player to GM: "Why do I hate him? I'm not normally judgemental."
> GM to Player: "You just do. Look I know you don't want your character to
> hate this person but you have to because it says so here."
> -- or --
> GM to Player: "When you seeh him you have a sudden feeling of loathing."
> Player to GM: "Why do I hate him? I'm not normally judgemental."
> GM rolls dice. "I rolled a 36, act as if Mind Controlled, you hate him."
> Player plays along knowing an EGO roll is coming.
>
> I've known many people who get annoyed when you tell them to react without
> also explaining the game effect. (Or at least hinting at it.)

Strange.

As a GM I'd go for:

GM to Player: "The mere sight of Slime-Guy fills you with a sense of loathing
and disgust. It's not a logical feeling, it's something primal and
driving. Try as you might, you cannot get the sense of disgust and
wrongness from you. It seems to speak straight to your soul."
GM OOC: Ok, now roleplay that as you think your character would interpret it.

Rook
__
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
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>>>>> "KF" == Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net> writes:

KF> I use a somewhat harsh rule on elemental controls that does cut down on
KF> abuse of them quite a bit. Put simple, ECs represent single unified
KF> SFX, more or less a single "Power" that allows a character to do many
KF> things, like for example Weather Control.

I hate to be the one to break this to you... but that is *EXACTLY* what an
Elemental Control is supposed to be. You are not being harsh, you are
doing it right.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
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>>>>> "JM" == Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> writes:

JM> GM to Player: "When you seeh him you have a sudden feeling of loathing."
JM> Player to GM: "Why do I hate him? I'm not normally judgemental."
JM> GM rolls dice. "I rolled a 36, act as if Mind Controlled, you hate him."
JM> Player plays along knowing an EGO roll is coming.

Nice bit of roll-playing, there. I still like my idea, but now I like it
more than ever.

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Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:57:07 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Bryant Berggren wrote:

> >> I usually use the Elemental Control as a bonus to give players that
> >> come up with a good character concept. The problem I am having is with
> >> players wanting to put characteristics inside an Elemental control.
> >
> >Well, they're special powers, so without special permission he can't.
>
> Actually, CHAR bought as Powers are Standard Powers, not Special Powers.
> Look it up.

Yes, but I recall that there is a statement to the efect that CHAR can't
go into a EC without express permission of the GM.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
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Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 98 18:08:50 -0500
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

bobby farris redbf@ldd.net 3/2/98 3:31 PM

> What brings this up is one of my players wants to play an advanced
>mutant. In the mutant book it gives a package deal for advanced mutants
>and states that advanced mutants have characteristics in the 20-30's
>across the board. He wants to put his charcteristics in a Mutant powers
>Elemental Control. I feel this is kind of power gaming, but I don't know
>what to tell him.

In the last campaign I was in, we treated AGMs as a racial deal and
allowed the characteristics in an EC. The "package" was still hideously
(?)
expensive but not particularly unbalancing. Mostly, I'd say look at what
all the players are doing. If most are getting an EC handling their
major powers, then in general there shouldn't be a big problem with an
AGM having his major powers (which will most likely be primarily
characteristics, especially to start) in an EC also. Think about your
players, THE player and make the best judgement call you can with respect
to
everyone having fun...

PAX,
John

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Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 98 18:18:15 -0500
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

Darien Phoenix Lynx chip@owlnet.rice.edu 3/2/98 2:36 PM

>4. Adjustment powers work vs the EC and all its slots, after all, it's the
>same power.

I know that the adjustment powers hit everything is commonly accepted.
However, an EC saves, in and of itself no more than half the cost of a
power. Thats a -1 limitation. So why does it give every adjuster out
there a +2 advantage: effects all powers of a SPX for free? Just seems to
be a little bit of an over reaction to the cost break...

PAX,
John

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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 15:34:06 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 05:57 PM 3/2/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "JM" == Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> writes:
>
>JM> GM to Player: "When you seeh him you have a sudden feeling of loathing."
>JM> Player to GM: "Why do I hate him? I'm not normally judgemental."
>JM> GM rolls dice. "I rolled a 36, act as if Mind Controlled, you hate him."
>JM> Player plays along knowing an EGO roll is coming.
>
>Nice bit of roll-playing, there. I still like my idea, but now I like it
>more than ever.
>
Ah, go play Amber if you don't like rollin' dice, ya weenie. :)

Seriously, the reason we have game mechanics, as opposed to 'lets pretend',
is to quantify and settle disputes. Going back to the original example,
what happens when the PC says, "I try not to hate her" or "I have 20 points
of Mental Defense -- did you remember that?" Does it become entirely your
judgement? Having a mechanic to model how strong the effect is vs.
resistance is useful.

Can you imagine telling a PC:"The villain just shot an energy bolt at you.
You fall over and are unconscious." without rolling to-hit, damage,
deducting armor, etc? Why, then, would you declare a mind control as a
similair absolute?

Good role-playing and GMing ought to override the rules when necessary, but
the rules are there for a reason.

I had an NPC in a 1940's WW2 game, called Fatale, who actually had a
similair mind-control power. 95% of the time, the effect she had on the
(male) PCs was simply roleplayed. But when it was necessary to determine,
fairly, if she could actually induce a PC to act against his better
judgement in life-and-death situation, it was good to have a set of rules
which could provide a semblance of an objective test.


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:35:03 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

>> What brings this up is one of my players wants to play an advanced
>> mutant. In the mutant book it gives a package deal for advanced mutants
>> and states that advanced mutants have characteristics in the 20-30's
>> across the board. He wants to put his charcteristics in a Mutant powers
>> Elemental Control. I feel this is kind of power gaming, but I don't know
>> what to tell him.

Smack him with something, preferably something large and heavy. This is not
a 'unified' set of powers.

>These are the tenets of my position:
>
>1. As many have said before, a good character concept is a prerequisite
>for role-playing, not something extra.

Well...not really. I've played and have seen some pretty lame character
concepts. It can be hard to come up with a good one, expecially for a novice
roleplayer or someone new to HERO. The catch is that a 'good' roleplayer
will hopefully turn this 'dull' concept into something interesting, given
time. If someone said to me "I wanna play the Human Torch", I'd roll my
eyes, but if he was adamant I'd let him (within the power limits for the
campaign), and I'd let him buy his powers through an EC, b/c the powers are
logically connected.

>2. Furthermore, the points saved with an EC can be much more than, say, a
>package deal, which is a break afforded a set of tightly related skills,
>perks,and abilities. ECs can and will save much more than 20%, which for
>me is about the limit on such "rewards."

Well, the more powers in an EC you have, the more you save. Baseline savings
is 25% (a 10 point EC w/ 2 x 20 point powers costs 30, not 40) barring extra
limitations, and it can go as high as near-50% (a 10 point EC w/ 10 x 20
point powers costs 110, not 200). So yes, the rewards are high - but you do
have to fit the criteria for the EC. As I've said before, there are plenty
of very-popular comic-book supers with a hodgepodge of seemingly unrelated
powers (Spiderman, Superman, etc.). These are, in effect, 'bad character
concepts' using that yardstick.

> Furthermore, the EC doesn't
>encourage you or require you to take not-as-useful powers (which are
>supposed to be what these point breaks are for)--like the knowledge skills
>inherenty in almost all packages.

I don't know about that. When I have an EC I'm more likely to take that
Change Environment that I 'should' have (given the basis of my powers),
despite its less-than-stellar usefulness. But often, yes, this is correct,
those 'saved' points go into 'more power'.

>3. An elemental control is "best" when its slots are the same, or nearly
>the same, cost. This isn't necessarily part of good character design, but
>might be an example of poor or contrived character design.

True. I'd like to see a rule that lets you buy 'smaller' powers in an EC,
with the limitation being that you never save more than half. So if you have
a 20 point EC, you could buy a 10 point power, but the EC would only shave 5
points off the cost. This would encourage buying those 'little' powers that
you should have but can't fit into the EC unless they're 'big' powers.

>So, I have a view of Elemental Control that is different from most
>understandings, and in fact what the BBB seems to espouse.
>
>1. Elemental Control is for characters who (gasp) control an element. For
>example, a vigilante hero in my campaign, Mr. Frosty, has the ability to
>extract kinetic energy from moisture, producing ice.

Yes, this makes perfect sense. All the powers are an 'aspect' of a single
overall power. Perfect EC-fodder.

>2. I expect all the logical points to be covered as slots in the elemental
>control. For example, Change Environment, Extra defenses, and Supress make
>good EC slots. Mr. Frosty has an EC like this:

Err..how much emphasis do you put on 'all the logical points'? This could
easily make it impossible to buy a lot of ECs. For example, a fire control
EC has literally _dozens_ of potential applications (once you work in
autofires, area effects, suppresses, dispels, etc., etc.). I hope you leave
room for "I haven't learned to do that yet" from the PCs.

>3. Because the EC is being used to emulate the effects of a single power
>being used in different ways, it now makes sense that the slots ahve the
>same or similar costs.

Hrm. Thing is, the logic behind the power may differ with this view. For
example, encasing someone with ice would logically take a lot more 'effort'
than making an ice ball to damage the opponant. They both might have the
same Active Costs, but one makes a hell of a lot more ice...

>4. Adjustment powers work vs the EC and all its slots, after all, it's the
>same power.

Adjustment powers being the finicky things they are, I don't like this as an
absolute rule. Provided that Adjustment powers always work vs. SFX, not the
power, I'd agree. But Adjustment powers need work anyway. Drain vs. Energy
Blast should not exist - it should be 'Drain vs. Fire' (and not at a +2
advantage, either).

>5. Characters who have another power can have more than one EC.

I have no problems with this, though it'd be rare, methinks.

>6. I can't really see how "Ice Force Field" or "Ice Running" works with
>this basis of the power.

'Ice Force Field' is easy - you generate a lot of ice around yourself,
selectively making areas 'brittle' so you can move (and it re-freezes once
you stop moving). All this effort costs END, so it's closer to a FF than
Armor. Iron Man once pulled off this stunt against some one-shot villian
that drained and projected heat. Admittedly, it's _goofy_, but so is
generating big ice balls out of 'thin air' - how many cups of water are in
the average cubic yard of air anyways? (answer: not a lot).

>Remember, when world mechanics and game mechanics
>are in conflict, side with the world mechanics! Mr. Frosty might want to
>wear a bulletproof vest, but that will have to come outside the EC.

Of course it would. The SFX are incompatible.

>I would not let someone get away with an EC like "Mutant Powers" or "Magic
>Powers," unless in my game world these were manifestations of some
>standard ability.

Ditto.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
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>>>>> "L" == Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> writes:

L> Having a mechanic to model how strong the effect is vs. resistance is
L> useful.

Having a mechanic to model how strong the effect is vs. resistance is a
cop-out. We are not talking about damage, we are talking about an
irrational feeling, and the irrational defies rational explanation.

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 16:12:12 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 06:18 PM 3/2/1998 -0500, John P Weatherman wrote:
>Darien Phoenix Lynx chip@owlnet.rice.edu 3/2/98 2:36 PM
>
>>4. Adjustment powers work vs the EC and all its slots, after all, it's the
>>same power.
>
>I know that the adjustment powers hit everything is commonly accepted.
>However, an EC saves, in and of itself no more than half the cost of a
>power. Thats a -1 limitation. So why does it give every adjuster out
>there a +2 advantage: effects all powers of a SPX for free? Just seems to
>be a little bit of an over reaction to the cost break...

Same here. That's why I use a less severe method.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:31:18 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Reply-To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Hero Games <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Bubble-Boy
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> >> How elegantly munchkinish.
> >
> > Maybe, but quite within the rules. It does have it's
> >disadvantages -- such as being mind controlled or intimidated into turning
> >it off.
>
> Oh, please. You may allow such a construct in your games, but
> Uncontrolled means that the character does not control it; That is the
> advantage.

No, that would be a disadvantage, actually.

> That is what you are paying points for; severing the "link"
> between the power and the individual.

You are paying points for not having to actively maitain this
power from phase to phase. Yes, it no longer requires your control.
However, the text says absolutely nothing about disallowing control. I
see no reason why a character couldn't turn this off at will.

Heck, it would tend to fit certain SFX. Think of an "Enternal
Hellfire" type of thing that will burn an opponent without any need to
maintain. However, quite logically, our demonic attacker can say,
"Enough" at any time.

Other ways to do this would include the power turning off with the
recital of a command word and/or some easy method of negation that the
attacker has within his/her power.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:35:00 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
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> It is a forced effect on the reacting female character. Most role-players
> don't like being told how their character should react. That's why I
> prefer dice to describe the effect. Which would you prefer, as a
> player?

To maturely roleplay? Or is that not an option for the munchkin
set?

> GM to Player: "When you see him you have a sudden feeling of loathing."
> Player to GM: "Why do I hate him? I'm not normally judgemental."
> GM to Player: "You just do. Look I know you don't want your character to
> hate this person but you have to because it says so here."

Excuse? Try, "You really don't like the looks of this type."
Player: Why?
GM: You're not really sure, just something about him.
Player: Can I try to be civil?
GM: Sure, but it will require an occasional Ego roll to keep from snapping
at him or otherwise acting hateful.

> GM to Player: "When you seeh him you have a sudden feeling of loathing."
> Player to GM: "Why do I hate him? I'm not normally judgemental."
> GM rolls dice. "I rolled a 36, act as if Mind Controlled, you hate him."
> Player plays along knowing an EGO roll is coming.
>
> I've known many people who get annoyed when you tell them to react without
> also explaining the game effect. (Or at least hinting at it.)

Then don't game with them. It's roleplaying. The rules aren't
there to form a straightjacket.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:40:30 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
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> > Elemental Control. I feel this is kind of power gaming, but I don't know
> > what to tell him.
> >
> Well... An advanced mutant is a very high point concept. Is it a high
> power game? If not the problem is more in the concept than in the way it's
> being written up.

Not really. IT's doable and, as I pointed out, quite worth the
points. A character just has to be limited in other areas. I've put one
together for my campaign for just over 300 points -- but I added a lot of
mystical ability as well as a nice Blaster MP.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:43:41 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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> In the last campaign I was in, we treated AGMs as a racial deal and
> allowed the characteristics in an EC. The "package" was still hideously
> (?)
> expensive but not particularly unbalancing. Mostly, I'd say look at what
> all the players are doing. If most are getting an EC handling their
> major powers, then in general there shouldn't be a big problem with an
> AGM having his major powers (which will most likely be primarily
> characteristics, especially to start) in an EC also. Think about your
> players, THE player and make the best judgement call you can with respect
> to
> everyone having fun...

The main problem is, as I've already said, those Characteristics
come with their own point breaks. Giving more doesn't help.

Also, look at The Mutant File. There are a few AGMs, but none use
EC to buy their AGM abilities.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 19:31:30 -0600
From: Mike Whitney <mwhitney@swbell.net>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Good ideas turned bad?
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Rick Holding wrote:

> I would have howled blue murder if this had happened to me. There is no
> way for a standard helicopter to even have any blades still attached after running
> into a building let alone having an intact drive train to have them still be able
> to turn.

At least it wasn't the news helicopter his DNPC girlfriend flew around in. Shot down
by his Hunted, the Iraqi's. I bet he didn't miss catching her, and didn't have to
watch her bounce when she hit the ground. Or see the a fragment of the helicopter
blade bury itself into her chest.

Yeah, she lived....barely. My GM was an evil bastard. (grin)

Mike

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 98 21:18:44 -0500
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
cc: <champ-l@omg.org>
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Tim R. Gilberg trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu 3/2/98 7:43 PM

>
>> In the last campaign I was in, we treated AGMs as a racial deal and
>> allowed the characteristics in an EC.

<snip>

> The main problem is, as I've already said, those Characteristics
>come with their own point breaks. Giving more doesn't help.
>
> Also, look at The Mutant File. There are a few AGMs, but none use
>EC to buy their AGM abilities.

I'm not arguing that AGMs can't be done without an EC, just that doing
them with an EC isn't automatically a problem. Just a matter of taste
and what else is in the game world.

PAX,
John

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: why@mail.superlink.net
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 21:43:50 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 06:35 PM 3/2/98 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>> It is a forced effect on the reacting female character. Most role-players
>> don't like being told how their character should react. That's why I
>> prefer dice to describe the effect. Which would you prefer, as a
>> player?
>
> To maturely roleplay? Or is that not an option for the munchkin
>set?

Ah, a personal attack, thank you.

>> GM to Player: "When you see him you have a sudden feeling of loathing."
>> Player to GM: "Why do I hate him? I'm not normally judgemental."
>> GM to Player: "You just do. Look I know you don't want your character to
>> hate this person but you have to because it says so here."
>
> Excuse? Try, "You really don't like the looks of this type."
>Player: Why?
>GM: You're not really sure, just something about him.
>Player: Can I try to be civil?
>GM: Sure, but it will require an occasional Ego roll to keep from snapping
>at him or otherwise acting hateful.

I don't understand how anyone who plays Hero can be adverse to rolling dice.

>> GM to Player: "When you seeh him you have a sudden feeling of loathing."
>> Player to GM: "Why do I hate him? I'm not normally judgemental."
>> GM rolls dice. "I rolled a 36, act as if Mind Controlled, you hate him."
>> Player plays along knowing an EGO roll is coming.
>>
>> I've known many people who get annoyed when you tell them to react without
>> also explaining the game effect. (Or at least hinting at it.)
>
> Then don't game with them. It's roleplaying. The rules aren't
>there to form a straightjacket.

No, they are also there for playing with anal engineering types. If I had
a play group that was more artistically grounded, I could describe all
things in the game without dice. I have done this. In fact, I once ran a
RPG where the players "character sheets" were a text description of the
character's history before the game started. The rules all came from my
head. No dice rolled.

Half of the players loved it, the other half loathed it. So what do I do
now. I play HERO. Everything has a game write up. The players who need
mechanics, get mechanics. The players who can handle vague descriptive
passages get that. It all works fine. Sometimes, however, I need to write
up something ugly. The idea of modelling, "all women hate the character"
is one of those ideas I might want to use in the future. How do you write
it up? Someone said Physical Limitation. I disagreed and someone else
suggested Distinctive Feature which I thought worked best. That's where
I'm coming from. Are we all on the same page?

Now. PhysLims are things the character cannot, to some degree, do no
matter how much will they have. DF has an option where a reaction can be
caused in an observer, BBB pg. 121 "+10 points Causes Extreme reaction
(abject fear, unabiding lust, complete disgust)". Sounds like it would
work for hatred as well.

The original poster wanted to make a power into disadvantage. I think
there is still some validity to that. But, in this case, DF is sufficient.

Joe

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 02 Mar 1998 22:43:06 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "JM" == Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> writes:

>> Then don't game with them. It's roleplaying. The rules aren't
>> there to form a straightjacket.

JM> No, they are also there for playing with anal engineering types.

Excuse me, but *I* am one of those anal, engineering types, and I have no
problems with stepping outside the printed rules or putting the dice aside
when the situation warrants it. The rules and dice are there to provide a
common ground so that everyone is treated fairly. When that common ground
is unnecessary or it becomes too restricting, it should be abandoned.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin.
\

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X-Sender: voxel@mail.theramp.net
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 22:01:44 -0600
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: Physical Limitations Defined
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 12:10 AM 3/3/98 -0800, Robert A. West wrote:
>The first character cannot learn Earth Culture without first buying off
>the Phys Lim. The second might be an AI that cannot lie, but need not
>speak up to correct a misimpression. I have seen divided opinion on
>Asimov's Laws of Robotics: whether they are Phys Lims or Psych Lims.

I think the easiest rule of thumb is this: if the character can be made to
bypass the limitation with an nd6 Mind Control (where (n) is any number
sufficient to achieve maximum effect on the character), then it is at best a
Psych Lim of total committment. If no amount of Mind Control can make the
character bypass the Limitation, it's "Physical".

--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Good ideas turned bad?
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-5,11-13
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 23:02:18 EST
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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X-Hero: champ-l
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>. We snuck by all the guards and security systems. When we
>got to
>the computer, we each expected the other to get the info. Neither one
>of us
>had any computer skills...

Reminds me of a high-powered Champions game I joined once that never
really got rolling. The "let's meet all the other heroes" adventure was
on the Concorde. The characters were all passengers, and the villians
were going to pull a skyjacking. When the villians made their move, half
of first class charged for the restrooms -- we all had Secret ID's, and
no one had Instant Change.

Leah

_____________________________________________________________________
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Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:10:50 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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> > Also, look at The Mutant File. There are a few AGMs, but none use
> >EC to buy their AGM abilities.
>
> I'm not arguing that AGMs can't be done without an EC, just that doing
> them with an EC isn't automatically a problem. Just a matter of taste
> and what else is in the game world.


And I, actually, am saying that they are a problem. Unless, of
course, characteristics are normally allowed in an EC. This campaign
would be quite unbalanced, however.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:30:48 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
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> > To maturely roleplay? Or is that not an option for the munchkin
> >set?
>
> Ah, a personal attack, thank you.

On the munchkin set. If you want to consider yourself therin,
fine. But I've had enough problems with people that need every die and
every point accounted for. Problems with players angry that the villians
might have more points to use than the players. Plot elements are
necessary, and can even be incorporated into character conception.

> >GM: Sure, but it will require an occasional Ego roll to keep from snapping
> >at him or otherwise acting hateful.
>
> I don't understand how anyone who plays Hero can be adverse to rolling dice.

They take up time and become a crutch. I really try to avoid
crutches. To me, it doesn't matter that you have 20 Ego defense. This is
not some sort of mental command, this is an air of hateability. I'll
allow an Ego roll to avoid the full effects, but this is something that
falls within the roleplaying sphere, much like Psych Lims.


> > Then don't game with them. It's roleplaying. The rules aren't
> >there to form a straightjacket.
>
> No, they are also there for playing with anal engineering types. If I had

Actually, most of them I just plain leave out of my games if they
can't deal with a plot element and actual roleplaying. It's not worth the
stress.

I tend to go with gaming newbies with Acting experience. I've
found actors (and writers) to make the best gamers, not experienced
gamers.

> Half of the players loved it, the other half loathed it. So what do I do
> now. I play HERO. Everything has a game write up. The players who need
> mechanics, get mechanics. The players who can handle vague descriptive
> passages get that.

I'll usually let quite a few things go without a writeup and just
a vague description of how they work. "Make an ego roll to resist" is
plenty of mechanics in my opinion. If realistically played, I might not
even require that. (Might, hell, probably)

> Now. PhysLims are things the character cannot, to some degree, do no
> matter how much will they have. DF has an option where a reaction can be
> caused in an observer, BBB pg. 121 "+10 points Causes Extreme reaction
> (abject fear, unabiding lust, complete disgust)". Sounds like it would
> work for hatred as well.

It could, but Physical Lim also works really well, here. Either
way the effects will be the same. The player will act that way because he
is told to. Role play the situation. Anyone asking "why?" will be told
that there is just some sort of air. Anyone asking for game mechanics
will give up experience points and still get no answer. You don't need to
know the mechanical why to role play.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: ErolB1 <ErolB1@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:31:34 EST
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

In a message dated 98-03-02 17:30:06 EST, redbf@ldd.net writes:

> Hi. I am a gamemaster and am having problems deciding what should go
> into an Elemental Control. I know that I should limit any kind of
> "special" powers, but I wonder what other gamemaster's are allowing.
> I usually use the Elemental Control as a bonus to give players that
> come up with a good character concept. The problem I am having is with
> players wanting to put characteristics inside an Elemental control.

Personally I take a very hard line on Elemental Controls. I don't allow them.
At all. Period.

>
> What brings this up is one of my players wants to play an advanced
> mutant. In the mutant book it gives a package deal for advanced mutants
> and states that advanced mutants have characteristics in the 20-30's
> across the board. He wants to put his charcteristics in a Mutant powers
> Elemental Control. I feel this is kind of power gaming, but I don't know
> what to tell him.

If you have built a lot of "advanced mutants" in your campaign using Elemental
Control for characteristics or if you intend to do so in the future, then give
it to him. Otherwise tell him that "advanced mutants" in your campaign aren't
built like that.

If I *did* allow Elemental Controls IMC, I'd have to say that various forms of
"superior physiology" are valid special effects for an all-characteristics EC
("superior mutant physiology", "superior alien physiology" "superior
physiology due to super-soldier serum" etc.) The only way to allow EC's and
still deny this would be plain unreasoning GM Fiat. I might be willing to do
that, but I'd rather rule out the entire problem in the first place.

Erol K. Bayburt
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: ErolB1 <ErolB1@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:31:36 EST
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
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In a message dated 98-03-02 19:36:11 EST, trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu

> > It is a forced effect on the reacting female character. Most role-players
> > don't like being told how their character should react. That's why I
> > prefer dice to describe the effect. Which would you prefer, as a
> > player?
>
> To maturely roleplay? Or is that not an option for the munchkin
> set?

It's not a matter of "mature roleplaying" or its lack, IMNSHO. Rather it's a
matter of who the character belongs to. Different styles of play divide "GM
turf" and "player turf" differently, and in many styles of play the question
of how the PC feels is solidly part of the player's turf and the GM must have
a very good justification when intruding on it.

In some styles of play, the players are "actors" and the GM is a "director."
In these styles the GM can simply direct the player into having the PC act a
certain way. But in other styles of play, the players are what the folks on
rec.games.frp.advocacy call "Immersive" - they *become* the characters,
thinking what the characters think and feeling what the characters feel. In
this style, a GM telling players what their characters feel is very disruptive
to roleplaying - unless it is made clear that the feelings and thoughts are
somehow 'unnatural' and come from outside the character. And many players in
this style prefer that things imposed on the character from outside like this
be represented by dice & mechanics rather than by GM fiat.

Erol K. Bayburt
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:31:54 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org


> Excuse me, but *I* am one of those anal, engineering types, and I have no
> problems with stepping outside the printed rules or putting the dice aside
> when the situation warrants it. The rules and dice are there to provide a
> common ground so that everyone is treated fairly. When that common ground
> is unnecessary or it becomes too restricting, it should be abandoned.

Thank you, Rat. You're last sentance is some of the most true
role playing wisdom I've heard. It works for any system. Too bad it is
too often ignored.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 21:22:48 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

> > > Also, look at The Mutant File. There are a few AGMs, but none use
> > >EC to buy their AGM abilities.
> >
> > I'm not arguing that AGMs can't be done without an EC, just that doing
> > them with an EC isn't automatically a problem. Just a matter of taste
> > and what else is in the game world.
>
> And I, actually, am saying that they are a problem. Unless, of
> course, characteristics are normally allowed in an EC. This campaign
> would be quite unbalanced, however.

Quite unbalanced in relation to...?

If the entire game is done this way, then it is balanced. If only one
character out of
all the PC's and NPC's is this way then it is unbalancing.
It's all relative. If EC's are common then the issue of them being
unbalanced is moot.
If they are uncommon then the issue may very well be moot to the opposite
position.

--
Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing


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X-Sender: why@mail.superlink.net
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 00:48:18 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 10:43 PM 3/2/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>>>>> "JM" == Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> writes:
>>> Then don't game with them. It's roleplaying. The rules aren't
>>> there to form a straightjacket.
>
>JM> No, they are also there for playing with anal engineering types.
>
>Excuse me, but *I* am one of those anal, engineering types, and I have no
>problems with stepping outside the printed rules or putting the dice aside
>when the situation warrants it. The rules and dice are there to provide a
>common ground so that everyone is treated fairly. When that common ground
>is unnecessary or it becomes too restricting, it should be abandoned.

No offense, calm down, so am I (an engineering type) and neither can I not
(leave the dice alone). It's some of the people in my gaming group who want
numbers for things. I cannot take the "leave them" option, that Tim Gilberg
is suggesting. Not when they are half of my normal gaming group. And all
of us are old friends. One makes due where one can. It's not like I can
just rustle a half dozen new RPGers at work.

Joe


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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:04:08 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
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On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, John P Weatherman wrote:

> Darien Phoenix Lynx chip@owlnet.rice.edu 3/2/98 2:36 PM
>
> >4. Adjustment powers work vs the EC and all its slots, after all, it's the
> >same power.
>
> I know that the adjustment powers hit everything is commonly accepted.
> However, an EC saves, in and of itself no more than half the cost of a
> power. Thats a -1 limitation. So why does it give every adjuster out
> there a +2 advantage: effects all powers of a SPX for free? Just seems to
> be a little bit of an over reaction to the cost break...

Oh... well at least consider:

1. The EC point break happens before limitations are applied. Technically,
this means that it's better than a -1. The *next* -1 is still worth half
off. So an EC's 1/2 break and a -1 limitation is equivalent to a -3!

2. Since my usage of ECs are for single-power-only effects, with only a
little leeway, it only makes since that (a) the powers have similar active
point costs, and (b) they all get affected by adjustment powers. Now, Bob
has a more complex rule which probably makes more sense, but preferring
simplicity, I simply treat them as if they were all hit by the same
attack.

3. Aids get the bonus too.

4. So, I think many people on this list are of the opinion that if you
think ECs are unbalanced, you can't balance it by making the unified
adjustment power interpretation. It's not enough. Like all point-packets
(frameworks, characteristics, package deals, levels)--the GM has to make
enlightened judgment calls on what is and isn't acceptable. Unfortunately,
the only way to develop a sense for what's is and what isn't in the spirit
of the rules for your campaign, is to play--and see them in real
campaigning experiences. After a while, you develop a keen sense for the
intricacies and balancing factors inherent in the HERO system, and are
aware of what effects anything you allow or disallow will have. Still at
the top of my 5th edition wish list are detailed commentaries on the
spirit of the rules. Novice GMs, or even experienced ones, could really
use them--especially if they have some power gamers (and who doesn't?)


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Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 01:07:29 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 10:30 PM 3/2/98 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> On the munchkin set. If you want to consider yourself therin,
>fine.

Some of my best friends are munchkins. Hell, they like 2nd Ed. AD&D better
than HERO. When I'm cranky, I can be the worst rules lawyer in the group.
And yet, my current GMing style (different group) is mostly improvisational.
I plot the basicscope of the session and we all see where it goes together.

> Actually, most of them I just plain leave out of my games if they
>can't deal with a plot element and actual roleplaying. It's not worth the
>stress.

Great that you can be picky about your players. There aren't a lot of
RPGers at work.

Any HERO players (champs or FH) in the central New Jersey area who don't
play on Sundays? (My normal group meets on Sundays.)

>> Now. PhysLims are things the character cannot, to some degree, do no
>> matter how much will they have. DF has an option where a reaction can be
>> caused in an observer, BBB pg. 121 "+10 points Causes Extreme reaction
>> (abject fear, unabiding lust, complete disgust)". Sounds like it would
>> work for hatred as well.
>
> It could, but Physical Lim also works really well, here. Either
>way the effects will be the same. The player will act that way because he
>is told to. Role play the situation. Anyone asking "why?" will be told
>that there is just some sort of air. Anyone asking for game mechanics
>will give up experience points and still get no answer. You don't need to
>know the mechanical why to role play.

I still don't buy it being a PhysLim. PhysLims shouldn't effect other
people. Did the wording to PhysLim change when 4th ed came out? I've only
ever played 4th, so maybe there's some historical precedent I don't know
about which leads some of you to think PhysLim makes sense for negative
reaction auras. But the horse, I believe, is dead, so I'm going to stop
mentioning it now. I think 10 or so times is enough repetition.
For one thread. :-)

Joe

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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:44:34 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Role-players and Game-players: GMing tips
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On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:

> Actually, most of them I just plain leave out of my games if they
> can't deal with a plot element and actual roleplaying. It's not worth the
> stress.
> I tend to go with gaming newbies with Acting experience. I've
> found actors (and writers) to make the best gamers, not experienced
> gamers.

Amen to that.

After all, why to GMs GM? Assuming it's not because they like lording
phenomenal power over their friends' fictional counterparts, and assuming
that it's not because they *like* mucking around with mechanics, drawing
maps, dealing with badgering players, boatloads of work, and perhaps even
a trashed out apartment on monday morning...

I GM because as a result of all the work, I get to watch a show, set in
the world of my design, with many characters of my design... and yet
without knowing for sure what will happen next. For some players, this
just isn't a source of recognized enjoyment. They don't necessarily have
to be munchkins or power gamers... I simply call them game-players or
perhaps problem-solvers, rather than role-players. Certainly elements of a
game add fun too, and so does problem-solving. Ultimately, though, I
strive to generate a feeling of cinema, not computer or board game.

Some guidelines that might help GMs looking to create this feeling:

- Don't let players fiat exchanges of information all the time ("I tell
him what I found out.") Most communication is exchange of information, and
that's where a lot of character development can happen. Encourage players
to tell stories to each other, even if the players already know what
happened. The characters may embellish the facts or leave something out.
If handled correctly, it can enhance the distinction between player and
character.

- The problem-solvers will detract from cinema by scraping for every
detail about everything. If a player starts down this road, it might go on
and on... Some of this is fine, too much will slow the game to a crawl.
Take a more vague approach. Allow detective-type characters to take
Deduction skill, and tell them that you will call to their attention
anything of importance. Don't skimp on descriptions or details, but do
know when to tell the players "there *isn't* any more information here."

- Adopt an OOC convention. After the Brits, in my campaigns we have a
tradition of putting your hand on your head when you wish to speak out of
character. This is the "unnatural" act. Players will joke about game
matters out of character (it's part of the fun); sometimes it will be
clearly OOC, sometimes it won't. The convention goes a long way toward
avoiding confusion, plus it further dilieneates the difference between
player and character.

- Create interesting NPCs whose personalities help bring out the
personalities of the PCs. A point or a counterpoint will help the players
flesh out where their character stands, personality-wise, with the rest of
your campaign world.

- If you're just starting a HERO campaign, try allowing players to specify
their psych lims after a few sessions of play. It takes a while to get to
"know" even your own creations. It will also get players thinking along
the lines of developing a personality in the first few sessions. In my
experience, they are much more likely to play by their psych lims, and
enjoy them, this way.

As more comes to me (and it is getting a little late right now), I'll
write more... but I know that everyone out there has ideas they can add on
how to achieve the right synergy in a campaign. What are your tips of the
trade?

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 01:05:25 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
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> Quite unbalanced in relation to...?

The norm.

> If the entire game is done this way, then it is balanced. If only one
> character out of
> all the PC's and NPC's is this way then it is unbalancing.
> It's all relative. If EC's are common then the issue of them being
> unbalanced is moot.

Not really. I feel it balances pretty nicely as-is. Making
changes as will change the overall working of the rules. While it may
balance out, it will take some crafting to get it to a point where these
EC-characteristic characters balanced with everyone else. Or maybe they
wouldn't. I think they'd end up being too powerful, what with getting two
big point breaks.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 00:10:50 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Physical Limitations Defined
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>
> Actually, a Physical Limitation can represent anything that's physically
> more difficult, up to and including impossible. Nearsightedness, hardness
> of hearing, a damaged leg, or a variety of other things could all be
> represented with Physical Limitations without making it all-out impossible
> for the character to do things.

Recall also that Phys Lim applies to anything that most characters can
do, that this character cannot do nor be forced to do. The following
would be valid Phys Lims:

20 Unfamiliar with Earth Culture (All the time, greatly)
15 Cannot knowingly utter a falsehood (freq. greatly)

The first character cannot learn Earth Culture without first buying off
the Phys Lim. The second might be an AI that cannot lie, but need not
speak up to correct a misimpression. I have seen divided opinion on
Asimov's Laws of Robotics: whether they are Phys Lims or Psych Lims.

I have also used Phys Lims to represent a Geas. In this case, failure to
obey the Phys Lim will unavoidably cause dire consequences. This could,
I suppose, be pointed as a Susceptability to disobeying the Geas or a
Dependency on obeying it, but the use of the Phys Lim allows the GM more
freedom in visiting punishment.

------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 00:36:40 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
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Curt Hicks wrote:
>
> >
>
> Tell him that "Mutant powers" is not a valid elemental control in your game.
> FWIW, it wouldn't be valid in my game either.

Reminds me of the player who bought Martial Arts for her projector, then
tried to take a package bonus on the grounds that Styles are referred to
in HSR as "packages". Of course, she didn't want to spend points on
silly things like KS: Chinese Philosophy or KS: Chinese Medicine.

An EC is a purely GM-optional bonus for good, tight, character design.
The prototype is commanding an "element" (Cold, Fire, Wind), but it
can also apply to a set of powers that closely fit an archetype (Werewolf
powers, Jedi Knight powers), or to a set of powers strongly linked by
common set of limitations (Chi powers that are all dependent on daily
meditation and will fail if ethical restrictions are violated).

Remember that an EC is a bonus assigned for the sort of character design
that the GM wishes to encourage. I am always asking players, "Why does
this power fit in with your EC?" If I only get a mumble back, I often
impose limitations or special effects that bring the powers into line.
For example:

Force Field in a Mental EC: only works against visible attacks.
Missile Deflection in a fire EC: works by melting missiles.
Melted depleted uranium still hurts! On the other
hand, Icicles melt automatically.
No persistent powers allowed in a Chi EC.


--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest


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Subject: Re: Good ideas turned bad?
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:18:47 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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To: champ-l@omg.org

On 2/28/98 4:07 AM Rook (rook@infinex.com) Said:

> "Blue Booking"From the Strike Force suppliment.
>Blue Booking is like playing a PBeM in person.
>Instead of talking and gesturing your character's action,
>you write them down in a notebook and then pass the notebook on to the
>proper person.
>
> I tried it once in 1990 and had my players get up and walk out after
>about 20 minutes of note taking.

I don't know how to break this to you but, Blue-booking isn't supposed to
be written while you are sitting at a table together; it should be done
"offline" and brought to the game session ready to go.

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:42:00 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Elemental Controls.
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Robert West wrote:

>
> An EC is a purely GM-optional bonus for good, tight, character design.
> The prototype is commanding an "element" (Cold, Fire, Wind), but it
> can also apply to a set of powers that closely fit an archetype (Werewolf
> powers, Jedi Knight powers), or to a set of powers strongly linked by
> common set of limitations (Chi powers that are all dependent on daily
> meditation and will fail if ethical restrictions are violated).
>

I'm not sure I agree with the latter parts for either closely fitting an
archetype (certainly not Jedi Knight) or powers linked by a common set of
limitations.

Curt

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Good ideas turned bad?
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 06:44:22 -0800 (PST)
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> > "Blue Booking"From the Strike Force suppliment.
> >Blue Booking is like playing a PBeM in person.
> >Instead of talking and gesturing your character's action,
> >you write them down in a notebook and then pass the notebook on to the
> >proper person.
> >
> > I tried it once in 1990 and had my players get up and walk out after
> >about 20 minutes of note taking.
>
> I don't know how to break this to you but, Blue-booking isn't supposed to
> be written while you are sitting at a table together; it should be done
> "offline" and brought to the game session ready to go.
>
Not from what I recall of it's description in that book. But it's been
years since I gave it a detailed look. Skimmed through that book when I was
putting together my current game. Not much useful stuff in there if you don't
use the NPC's actually. But it's better than many Champion's books.
That was a lesson learned though. Never tried that again.

Though I'll likely allow my players to continue their characters
activities in emails between sessions. In session it's all active roleplay.

Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing

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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:52:50 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Blue Booking
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>
> On 2/28/98 4:07 AM Rook (rook@infinex.com) Said:
>
> > "Blue Booking"From the Strike Force suppliment.
> >Blue Booking is like playing a PBeM in person.
> >Instead of talking and gesturing your character's action,
> >you write them down in a notebook and then pass the notebook on to the
> >proper person.
> >
> > I tried it once in 1990 and had my players get up and walk out after
> >about 20 minutes of note taking.

David Fair wrote:

> I don't know how to break this to you but, Blue-booking isn't supposed to
> be written while you are sitting at a table together; it should be done
> "offline" and brought to the game session ready to go.
>


I used to blue book during the introductory parts of the game. The trick
is to make sure that ALL of the players are passing you their books back and
forth, even if some of them are just stopping muggings or dealing with NPC's.
Of course, I remember a couple of times of having to explicitly write
"Please hurry and respond with this, it's the actual leadin to the episode."

And blue booking is not really like playing a PBEM in person, but more like
conducting private conversations with the GM about what is going on with your
character. Actually, or conducting private conversations with other player
characters. Of course, you can do it anyway you like.

Curt

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X-Authentication-Warning: xanadu.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:15:28 -0600 (CST)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
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On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Curt Hicks wrote:

> Robert West wrote:
> > An EC is a purely GM-optional bonus for good, tight, character design.
> > The prototype is commanding an "element" (Cold, Fire, Wind), but it
> > can also apply to a set of powers that closely fit an archetype (Werewolf
> > powers, Jedi Knight powers), or to a set of powers strongly linked by
> > common set of limitations (Chi powers that are all dependent on daily
> > meditation and will fail if ethical restrictions are violated).
>
> I'm not sure I agree with the latter parts for either closely fitting an
> archetype (certainly not Jedi Knight) or powers linked by a common set of
> limitations.

Well, since 'werewolf powers' is an example in my copy of the HSR, I'm
guessing the designers would disagree with you. ;)

When I look at an EC to make a decision on it, the primary question is
'can it be summed up in a sentence'. Icicle's EC is 'control over cold',
Shadow Wolf's is 'I turn into a werewolf'. Both of these tell you
something about the character and what powers fit into the framework. So
does 'Jedi Knight', for that matter - you'd expect telekinesis,
precognition, and other powers displayed in the movies. You /wouldn't/
expect Teleportation or Shapeshifting to be in EC: Jedi Powers.

That brings me to the second part, which is that the EC has a limited set
of effects. 'Advanced Mutant Powers' does not - anything in the book
could be called a 'mutant power' - therefore it would never be an EC in my
book. 'Ice Powers', 'Jedi Powers', and 'Werewolf Powers' all have limits
- so they (in general) fulfill both of my criteria for being good ECs.

J

"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:38:33 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Elemental Controls.
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Sakura (jeffj@io.com) wrote:


> So
> does 'Jedi Knight', for that matter - you'd expect telekinesis,
> precognition, and other powers displayed in the movies. You /wouldn't/
> expect Teleportation or Shapeshifting to be in EC: Jedi Powers.
>

Then I can make the same argument for EC: Superman's powers. (grin)

Curt

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 08:39:32 -0700
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
Subject: Re: GMing tips :Accessories
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Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:
>

> - Adopt an OOC convention. After the Brits, in my campaigns we have a
> tradition of putting your hand on your head when you wish to speak out of
> character. This is the "unnatural" act. Players will joke about game
> matters out of character (it's part of the fun); sometimes it will be
> clearly OOC, sometimes it won't. The convention goes a long way toward
> avoiding confusion, plus it further dilieneates the difference between
> player and character.
>

This made me think of putting together a list of usefull game
accessories (whether it be in 'habits' like the above, or actual stuff)
so here goes...(Ignoring the obvious like dice)

What we use (for the combat parts of the game (the rest need no real
accessories now do they?))

a map- we use a dry erase board (4' by 3' or so) and the GM draws out
the scene and we go to. This 'allows' players not to know the precise
inches of distance between himself and the opposition; there are those
in the wargaming aspect of our hobby that like that bit of uncertainty.
And before anyone mentions the cost, I'll pass along a tip to those who
wants to know- the white, smooth, waterproof paneling that you can buy
for your bathroom runs (around here) for 10-15 bucks (at a home supply
warehouse) for an 8'x4' sheet. It has worked for use as a dry erase
board for about 9 months now. Much cheaper than a similar sized office
supply store version (which for a 4'x3' was about 100 bucks).
Before we used the dry erase thing, we just used old newsprint style art
paper.

a yardstick;to measure off those inches after the action has been
declared. It is marked with big black lines at the range mod
breakpoints... so after someone declares that they plan to blast an
opponenet someone just lays the stick down and 'he's at -4. We also call
our yardstick a 'Machstick' in honor of Mach the speedster with 36" of
running.

blank business size cards. filled out like so:
NAME DEX
P H A S E S

This speeds up the combat. There are computer programs that do this, but
we don't game by our computer.

An old very large d12; to keep track of what phase it is on.

The punny-bank. This is an old bottle that gets paid into. The amount is
determened by the severity of the offences; The 'offences' are puns, bad
jokes and movie/TV qoutes. We then buy supplies for the group with it,
or barring anything usefull it gets us all pizza about once a month.

Anyone else?
--

Not only does the English Language borrow words from other languages,
it sometimes chases them down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and
goes through their pockets. -- Eddy Peters

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 09:45:19 -0600
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net
Organization: Red Bow Antiques
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
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To: champ-l@omg.org

Bryant Berggren wrote:
>
>
> Actually, CHAR bought as Powers are Standard Powers, not Special Powers.
> Look it up.

Actually, I know this, but under the ChAR section, it says that they
should be limited by GM in Elemental Controls

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:11:08 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: GMing tips :Accessories
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
Content-Disposition: inline
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Message text written by Curtis Gibson
>blank business size cards. filled out like so:
NAME DEX
P H A S E S

This speeds up the combat. There are computer programs that do this, but
we don't game by our computer.<

This may only be useful for the GM, but I prefer using the tracking sheet
that came with the GM Screen (I think...maybe it's in the BBB)...it has
name, DEX, phases, and some other info for every character, all on one
page. Actually, I just bought a laptop and have been checking out some of
the programs you mention, but without the laptop I would use this sheet.

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X-Authentication-Warning: xanadu.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:17:27 -0600 (CST)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
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On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Curt Hicks wrote:
> Sakura (jeffj@io.com) wrote:
> > So
> > does 'Jedi Knight', for that matter - you'd expect telekinesis,
> > precognition, and other powers displayed in the movies. You /wouldn't/
> > expect Teleportation or Shapeshifting to be in EC: Jedi Powers.
> >
> Then I can make the same argument for EC: Superman's powers. (grin)

Well, let's see...

1) It's an established and expected body of powers (assuming we're talking
about the old Superman, not the blue energy Superman), which has in fact
shown up in more than one character, and

2) It doesn't potentially include any power in the book.

Therefore, if Kryptonians (and that other race, that was like them but
vulnerable to lead...I forget what they were called...Daxamites?) existed
in the campaign world, EC: Kryptonian Powers would be acceptable to
me...mind you, with that EC: would also come limitations like 'Only under
a yellow sun' and disadvantages like 'Susceptibility to kryptonite'. You
can't get the good without the bad.

However, I wouldn't let a /player/ just toss together 8 random powers and
call it 'Weird Alien Powers' - any ECs of that nature should be created
and controlled by the GM.

And oh yeah...if I didn't want Kryptonians or Jedi Knights in the
particular game, I wouldn't allow that EC either...

J

"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"

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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:45:44 -0800 (PST)
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From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
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At 09:38 AM 3/3/98 -0600, Curt Hicks wrote:
>
>Sakura (jeffj@io.com) wrote:
>
>
>> So
>> does 'Jedi Knight', for that matter - you'd expect telekinesis,
>> precognition, and other powers displayed in the movies. You /wouldn't/
>> expect Teleportation or Shapeshifting to be in EC: Jedi Powers.
>>
>
>Then I can make the same argument for EC: Superman's powers. (grin)
>
>Curt
>
>


Actually, couldn't you? If you called them Kryptonian Powers. Doesn't any
Krpytonian develop a distinct set of powers under the right conditions? I
haven't read much on Superman so I could be way off base.

I know violence doesn't solve all problems...
But it sure feels good!
Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior

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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:45:51 -0600 (CST)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
Reply-To: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Blue Booking
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On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Curt Hicks wrote:
> > On 2/28/98 4:07 AM Rook (rook@infinex.com) Said:
> >
> > > "Blue Booking"From the Strike Force suppliment.
> > >Blue Booking is like playing a PBeM in person.
> > >Instead of talking and gesturing your character's action,
> > >you write them down in a notebook and then pass the notebook on to the
> > >proper person.
> > >
> > > I tried it once in 1990 and had my players get up and walk out after
> > >about 20 minutes of note taking.
>
> David Fair wrote:
>
> > I don't know how to break this to you but, Blue-booking isn't supposed to
> > be written while you are sitting at a table together; it should be done
> > "offline" and brought to the game session ready to go.
>
> I used to blue book during the introductory parts of the game. The trick
> is to make sure that ALL of the players are passing you their books back and
> forth, even if some of them are just stopping muggings or dealing with NPC's.
> Of course, I remember a couple of times of having to explicitly write
> "Please hurry and respond with this, it's the actual leadin to the episode."

Hm. I usually tend to do this 'offline' - no sense in scheduling everyone
to come for a game if you're just going to have it be 'private
conversations' with the GM.

Plus, I and all of my players have lousy handwriting. Easier to meet
somewhere and talk this stuff out...

> And blue booking is not really like playing a PBEM in person, but more like
> conducting private conversations with the GM about what is going on with your
> character. Actually, or conducting private conversations with other player
> characters. Of course, you can do it anyway you like.

E-mail is perhaps the ultimate tool for blue-booking. Fast, convenient,
easy to read, easy to send copies to the GM.

What is there about blue-booking that would make it attractive or useful
to do it at the session itself? I've never read 'Strike Force' so my
conception of it is based on descriptions from this list and the frp
newsgroups - I might be missing a piece...


J

"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"


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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 08:50:48 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Physical Limitations Defined
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At 10:01 PM 3/2/1998 -0600, Bryant Berggren wrote:
>At 12:10 AM 3/3/98 -0800, Robert A. West wrote:
>>The first character cannot learn Earth Culture without first buying off
>>the Phys Lim. The second might be an AI that cannot lie, but need not
>>speak up to correct a misimpression. I have seen divided opinion on
>>Asimov's Laws of Robotics: whether they are Phys Lims or Psych Lims.
>
>I think the easiest rule of thumb is this: if the character can be made to
>bypass the limitation with an nd6 Mind Control (where (n) is any number
>sufficient to achieve maximum effect on the character), then it is at best a
>Psych Lim of total committment. If no amount of Mind Control can make the
>character bypass the Limitation, it's "Physical".

I think that's a good litmus test.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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From: JJP3337 <JJP3337@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:57:07 EST
Subject: Re: Rules as Straight Jacket(wasPowers as Disadvantages...)
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Subj: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
Date: 98-03-03 00:06:03 EST
From: ratinox@peorth.gweep.net (Stainless Steel Rat)
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
To: champ-l@omg.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "JM" == Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> writes:

>> Then don't game with them. It's roleplaying. The rules aren't
>> there to form a straightjacket.

JM> No, they are also there for playing with anal engineering types.

>Excuse me, but *I* am one of those anal, engineering types, and I have no
>problems with stepping outside the printed rules or putting the dice aside
>when the situation warrants it. The rules and dice are there to provide a
>common ground so that everyone is treated fairly. When that common ground
>s unnecessary or it becomes too restricting, it should be abandoned.

Rules are there to give you a setting a resonable way of resolving damgage and
interactiing within the RPG world...but they are not concrete and NEVER should
be treated that way...since when can a games makers account for every
situation and plyer concoction...my players often give me headaches when they
spend enought time to come up with a way to bend the rules...but that is the
fun of playing and GMing...sometime the little SOB's suprise me with something
I hadn't thought of...thats called roleplaying at its best...look at games
like Star Wars where they spent a few columns telling the Gamemaster when its
okay to "fudge" the rules for playing effect...I think even thir ED. AD&D has
a section on the same idea...Its no fun if the only reason you have for
denying a reasonable character action is " cause the rules say so" the G.M.
sounds like a two year old if they do this two often


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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:14:23 -0500
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: GMing tips :Accessories
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Other accessories:

Map: I use a Chessex battlemat and cardboard counters for the
characters. I occasionally make laminated maps for recurring
locations - super-team headquarters, etc. I've just made some
ship counter/maps for my current pirate game. I also include a
loop of string among my counters; it originally represented a
giant amoeba in a Champions game, but since then I've used it
quite often for area of effect attacks and other large, shifting
phenomena.

GM Screens: Over the years, I've made several sets of GM screens
to my own satisfaction. I never cared much for the ones Hero sold.
I also vary some segments of my screens according to the genre
and campaign; I've just added a sea combat screen for my pirate
campaign.

Props: I like to give the players a prop document now and then.
Just recently I gave the newly recruited pirates the Articles of
Piracy of their ship, the Laughing Fiend - I had the players
who'd bought literacy read it aloud for the rest. In the past
I've written up letters, a TV commercial script, and of course
various maps in fantasy games. I've also used videotapes to
illustrate how something looks now and then.

Other handouts: It adds depth to a game when I give reference
sheets and other handouts to players, including knowledge that
their characters will have but which the players won't necessariliy
remember if the GM only mentions it in passing. I tend to hand out
timelines for the campaign world, brief summaries of countries,
factions, etc., and whatever else seems relevent to the campaign.
For my pirate game, I've worked up two packets of nautical
terminology and pirate vocabulary, which is adding lots of fun
to the characters' dialogue.

The Quote Sheet: Years ago I fell into the habit of keeping a list
of particularly clever, stupid, or bizarre things the players
have said, in or out of character. It's a great source of nostalgia
for campaigns past or the early days of a long-running campaign,
it can get people in the mood for the game if I read it out now
and then, and mainly it's just a good laugh. Some of my favorites
quotes include a really lame presence attack ("Wherever there is
evil, there is stupidity. And wherever there is stupidity there
is the Ivory Avenger!") a desperate player with a loose grasp on
the rules ("Can I take STUN out of Endurance?") and improvised
comments that had major consequences in the game ("The Little
Street Electronic Shop? _All_ the superheroes shop there!")


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 17:24:36 +0000
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Power Supply Man
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X-Status:
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X-UID: 116

Curt Hicks wrote:
>
> Power Supply Man can use his personal energy to power any kind of
> device
> that requires power. He's essentially a living battery, but not just
> for
> electrical devices.
>
> How would this be modelled ?
>
> Curt Hicks

How about an END reverse, usuable by others?

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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:35:40 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net (Unverified)
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Jedi EC?
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>> So
>> does 'Jedi Knight', for that matter - you'd expect telekinesis,
>> precognition, and other powers displayed in the movies. You /wouldn't/
>> expect Teleportation or Shapeshifting to be in EC: Jedi Powers.
>>
>Then I can make the same argument for EC: Superman's powers. (grin)

Very true. I wouldn't allow EC: Jedi Powers. I _would_, however, allow EC:
Jedi Mind Control Powers (Mind Scan, Mind Control, Telepathy), EC: Jedi
Psychokinesis (Telekinesis, Superleap, BOECV RKA 'death grip'), and EC:
Lightsaber Powers (OAF Lightsaber - Energy HKA, Missile Reflection, RKA
Damage Shield that only destroys weapons, etc). All in all, it's probably
best for a Jedi to have Multipower: Lightsaber and a VPP only for Jedi
Powers (slightly limited group, -1/4).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

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Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 11:46:09 -0600
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
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You could reasonably make a "Kryptonian Powers" package deal (if you had more than one Kryptonian, that is), but I'd never allow them in an EC. Come to think of it, I'd do the same with "Jedi Powers".

Valid ECs really depend upon the GM and the campaign. For instance, "Fire powers" is too broad for me, since it covers everything from a fire explosion to staring at a flame to see what's happening in another flame miles away, or healing flames to cauterize an injury. More likely candidates would be "Fire manipulation" for controlling, enhancing, and producing flames or "Mystic Fire Powers" for the more esoteric aspects of fire magic (like healing, clairsentience, etc.).

A good test of a valid EC might be asking, "What powers does it EXCLUDE?"

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

On 3/3/98, at 9:46 AM, Curt Hicks wrote:

>Sakura (jeffj@io.com) wrote:
>
>
>> So
>> does 'Jedi Knight', for that matter - you'd expect telekinesis,
>> precognition, and other powers displayed in the movies. You /wouldn't/
>> expect Teleportation or Shapeshifting to be in EC: Jedi Powers.
>>
>
>Then I can make the same argument for EC: Superman's powers. (grin)
>
>Curt

Uncommon Solutions...when you need a better way!
http://www.uncommonsolutions.com

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Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 11:47:04 -0600
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net
Organization: Red Bow Antiques
Subject: Elemental Controls
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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I want to thank everyone for response to my questions. I apprecitate
the help. I have always had a problem with Elemental Controls and you
have helped me a great deal. Now all I have to do is remake some
characters and convince others to do so as well.

My next question is a little harder. Under what circumstances would you
allow a person to buy stats in an EC? The problem I have always had with
stats in an EC is that it seems to be a cheap way to get high stats with
little cost.
However, I don't want to say that I would NEVER allow stats to be
placed in an EC, but can't think of any specific example to give. Can
anyone else think of any? Would allowing them in with the fact that they
don't count against figured characteristics be unbalancing?

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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:00:36 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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bobby farris writes:

> My next question is a little harder. Under what circumstances would
> you allow a person to buy stats in an EC? The problem I have always had
> with stats in an EC is that it seems to be a cheap way to get high stats
> with little cost.
> However, I don't want to say that I would NEVER allow stats to be
> placed in an EC, but can't think of any specific example to give. Can
> anyone else think of any? Would allowing them in with the fact that they
> don't count against figured characteristics be unbalancing?

Slapping 'no figs' on (for free) makes STR and CON in ECs not horribly
offensive, but for most other attributes it's still a bad thing.

The only situation I'd allow stats in an EC is to simulate extremely
specialized effects -- for example, in a 'friction control' EC I might allow
strength, only to escape grabs and entangles.

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Module in 3rd edition GM's screen (Island of Dr. Destroyer)
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:11:58 -0800 (PST)
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Hello;

Does anyone know if the module that shows up in the third edition
GM's screen shows up anywhere else as well?
This is the "Island of Dr. Destroyer" module that serves as a prelude
to the fourth edition module also dealing with Dr. Destroyer.

Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing

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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:23:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Daniel R Palacio <dandan@cats.ucsc.edu>
X-Sender: dandan@am.UCSC.EDU
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Blue Booking
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On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Curt Hicks wrote:

> And blue booking is not really like playing a PBEM in person, but more like
> conducting private conversations with the GM about what is going on with your
> character. Actually, or conducting private conversations with other player
> characters. Of course, you can do it anyway you like.

Our group used to use it mainly for telepathic conversations,
solo adventures and to play out high emotional moments (like when one
character, a magic-hating gadgeteer, was reunited with his father, the
archmage of another dimension).

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:29:43 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

> My next question is a little harder. Under what circumstances would you
> allow a person to buy stats in an EC? The problem I have always had with
> stats in an EC is that it seems to be a cheap way to get high stats with
> little cost.

Well, as I said last time; :)

Think not of why they fit the EC, think of why they can't fit outside of it.

If you can't explain how or why the stats could be done outside of the
EC, then you've found a valid reason to put them in.
As for a specific example; I don't have one off hand.
Maybe if you want the stats to be connected to a certain set of powers.
Such that anything affecting the active point totals of those powers
also affects the stats. But this can be done by buying the stats as normal and
then just applying a limitation on them.

> anyone else think of any? Would allowing them in with the fact that they
> don't count against figured characteristics be unbalancing?

It's a house rule, I tend to shy away from house rules.

Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:36:53 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

> > My next question is a little harder. Under what circumstances would
> > you allow a person to buy stats in an EC? The problem I have always had
> > with stats in an EC is that it seems to be a cheap way to get high stats
> > with little cost.
>
> The only situation I'd allow stats in an EC is to simulate extremely
> specialized effects -- for example, in a 'friction control' EC I might allow
> strength, only to escape grabs and entangles.
>
Yes, this sounds valid. I'd allow stats in an EC that are limited
and designed to achieve a certain particular effect rather than grant the
stat in general.

Things like strength for throwing distance only, etc...
But I'd still want to see why it's related to the rest of the EC's nature and
better in than out of the EC.

Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing

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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:40:28 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Module in 3rd edition GM's screen (Island of Dr. Destroyer)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

---Brian Wong wrote:
>
> Hello;
>
> Does anyone know if the module that shows up in the third edition
> GM's screen shows up anywhere else as well?
> This is the "Island of Dr. Destroyer" module that serves as a prelude
> to the fourth edition module also dealing with Dr. Destroyer.
>
> Rook

I haven't read either in a long time, but I'm pretty sure that the
adventure that comes with the 4th edition GM screen is just a update
to the 3rd edition one.


_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:51:36 -0800 (PST)
From: Daniel R Palacio <dandan@cats.ucsc.edu>
X-Sender: dandan@am.UCSC.EDU
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: GMing tips
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I don't remember where I picked up this idea, but one of the
things we used to do to get into character was get into a circle before
gametime, and do character drills. The GM would address a player by his or
her PC's name, ask them a personal question, and the other player would
answer in character. That character would then ask another character
another question, and so forth. We would do this for about five minutes,
or until the GM began the scene. It encouraged roleplaying, made for a
tighter knit team, fleshed out DNPCs, and even gave the GM ideas for
future adventures.




Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:59:30 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org


> My next question is a little harder. Under what circumstances would you
> allow a person to buy stats in an EC? The problem I have always had with
> stats in an EC is that it seems to be a cheap way to get high stats with
> little cost.

Me personally? About never. Perhaps some limited PRE and COM as
part of a shapeshifter's EC.

> However, I don't want to say that I would NEVER allow stats to be
> placed in an EC, but can't think of any specific example to give. Can
> anyone else think of any? Would allowing them in with the fact that they
> don't count against figured characteristics be unbalancing?

Possibly not, but that would require a house ruling that
EC-contained characteristics get "no figured" for no limitation value. At
this points, things are almost balanced. Just watch for fitting ECs.

Or, my solution, disallow altogether and make them buy the
characteristics seperately.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:01:19 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org


> Slapping 'no figs' on (for free) makes STR and CON in ECs not horribly
> offensive, but for most other attributes it's still a bad thing.

Agreed.

> The only situation I'd allow stats in an EC is to simulate extremely
> specialized effects -- for example, in a 'friction control' EC I might allow
> strength, only to escape grabs and entangles.

And agreed. This is so limited as to be hardly a characteristic.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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From: Michael Sprague <msprague@eznet.net>
Reply-To: "msprague@eznet.net" <msprague@eznet.net>
Subject: RE: Module in 3rd edition GM's screen (Island of Dr. Destroyer)
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:26:45 -0500
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

I do not believe that an adventure came with the 4th ed. GM screen. I just
took a look at my screen (which is all apart, of course), and an adventure
is _not_ one of the things that came with it (I didn't find one, and it's
not listed as one of the things in the package).

I specifically bought a copy of the third edition GM screen, so that I
would get a copy of the "Island of Dr. Destroyer." To my knowledge, this
advent was never published anywhere else.

~ Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: John Desmarais [SMTP:johndesmarais@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 1998 1:40 PM
To: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Module in 3rd edition GM's screen (Island of Dr. Destroyer)

---Brian Wong wrote:
>
> Hello;
>
> Does anyone know if the module that shows up in the third edition
> GM's screen shows up anywhere else as well?
> This is the "Island of Dr. Destroyer" module that serves as a prelude
> to the fourth edition module also dealing with Dr. Destroyer.
>
> Rook

I haven't read either in a long time, but I'm pretty sure that the
adventure that comes with the 4th edition GM screen is just a update
to the 3rd edition one.


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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:32:02 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Presence Attacks
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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How common are Presence attacks in your game? Do heroes routinely initiate
a PA when they enter combat by saying something like "Here I come to save
the day!", or is it more for unique circumstances? In my games, they have
been somewhat rare, and I'm thinking maybe TOO rare.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:32:17 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Reply-To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
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> Some of my best friends are munchkins. Hell, they like 2nd Ed. AD&D better
> than HERO. When I'm cranky, I can be the worst rules lawyer in the group.

I have some very good Munchkin friends and some very good Rules
Lawyer friends. I hang with them, but I no longer game with them.

Heck, that's a major reason why I _didn't_ play Champs while
playing assorted White Wolf for awhile. I was tired of rules arguments
and munchkin tricks and I really liked this group that was in it for a
good story -- not to play games with the rules and certainly not for a
"dark-angst" thing common to so many WoD campaigns.

> And yet, my current GMing style (different group) is mostly improvisational.
> I plot the basicscope of the session and we all see where it goes together.

That's great. My favorite, when it works. But I've seen players
too anal on the rules muck things up. I've tried to switch to narrative
combat to speed things up when it is obvious that the heroes would win,
and they refuse to go along. Things like this _really_ get me.

> > Actually, most of them I just plain leave out of my games if they
> >can't deal with a plot element and actual roleplaying. It's not worth the
> >stress.
>
> Great that you can be picky about your players. There aren't a lot of
> RPGers at work.

True. And I've gamed less for being picky. I've also had great
groups going in other games so I've been happy. Like I said, the newbie
gamers who like to act and tell a story seem to work great.

> I still don't buy it being a PhysLim. PhysLims shouldn't effect other
> people.

Why not? You are physically limited by others reactions. There.
It's a phys lim.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."


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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 12:03:35 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Blue Booking
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At 10:45 AM 3/3/1998 -0600, Sakura wrote:
>> And blue booking is not really like playing a PBEM in person, but more like
>> conducting private conversations with the GM about what is going on with
your
>> character. Actually, or conducting private conversations with other player
>> characters. Of course, you can do it anyway you like.
>
>E-mail is perhaps the ultimate tool for blue-booking. Fast, convenient,
>easy to read, easy to send copies to the GM.
>
>What is there about blue-booking that would make it attractive or useful
>to do it at the session itself? I've never read 'Strike Force' so my
>conception of it is based on descriptions from this list and the frp
>newsgroups - I might be missing a piece...

With the hopes that Aaron Allston doesn't mind (well, he didn't mind
having all the rest of his GMing tips from that book put into the BBB), I
think I'll just copy his description here (note that the below text is
Aaron's; I'll tell you when it's me again):

-===-

Blue-Booking

An interesting role-playing technique we've developed for the Strike
Force campaign is called Blue-Booking.
Most campaigns use what are called Paranoia Notes. If you want to say
something to the GM without all the other players listening, you scribble
it down on a piece of scrap paper and hand it over. This keeps some
conversations private and keeps other players guessing.
For convenience, we got rid of the pads of note-paper and substituted
examination books -- blue-covered 8"x10" notebooks used by colleges for
examinations and themes.
They were neater and more convenient than note-pads, and they did
something interesting to the campaign. Soon after their introduction,
players were using them to conduct conversations between their characters
-- off-screen, private conversations.
When blue-booking, one player sets the stage -- writes down where his
character encounters or approaches the other character, and then writes his
character's opening lines of conversation, and hands it to the other player
for a response. Back and forth they go, conducting conversations,
developing their characters' personalities, histories, and relationships
with other characters (PCs and NPCs both). Soon, blue-booking was no
longer confined to conversations between characters; players also wanted to
do behind-the-scenes role-playing in them as well. The detective character
who once would just have described how he conducted his investigation and
then made a skill roll could now do his investigating in the pages of a
blue-book, writing to and receiving his answers from the GM.
Eventually, whole game-sessions were occasionally given over to
blue-booking. In these sessions, the players put their characters through
solo activities, or conversations with one another, which pertain to their
ongoing stories. One player will write with the GM concerning his
investigations; one will be conducting a romance with an NPC; one will be
vacationing in Greece; another may actually be conducting a whole solo
adventure with the GM. (In the latter case, the GM has the player roll up
a whole series -- 20 or 30 -- of rolls to hit and for damage and write them
down in the back of the book; when the character gets into combat, the GM
uses those rolls, checking them off one by one, when narrating the course
of the combat.)
Blue-booking can be very helpful to a campaign, for these reasons:

(1) Privacy. When players want to conduct lengthy activities or
conversations but don't want the other players to know what they entail,
blue-booking is the ideal medium.

(2) Permanence. Since the xamination books are neat and store well, you
have no need to throw them away; if you need to know what happened in any
encounter, you can look it up.

(3) Breakdown of inhibition. It's hard to conduct some game activities
during active play. For instance, a male GM playing a female NPC who's
having a passionate affair with a male PC may have a tough time uttering
the lines of high romance in a roomful of gamers. But while blue-booking
the dialogue, the GM can be detached enough to write the NPCs' lines as he
wishes her to say them, can take the time to make sure the dialogue he's
writing isn't clumsy or inane, and can give the player-character a more
satisfying subplot.

Blue-booking does have its dangers, though. It can be terribly
addictive to some players -- Romantics and Builders especially. Also, the
GM doesn't want to blue-book for just one player int he middle of an active
game; either you're running a game or conducting a blue-boopking session --
you can't do both at the same time and keep everything moving to the
satisfaction of everyone involved.

-===-

Now, for my own notes on this: Don't dive right into it full throttle.
Do a little blue-booking at first, using the books for the Paranoia notes
that Aaron describes, and move on to the rest a little at a time when
everyone's comfortable with it.
Each player can also be asked to keep a record of character development,
noting what Experience Points are spent on and where the player and/or
character wants to put future experience into.
A GM's private blue-book can also be used to keep notes of plots as they
worked out, combat records, and such things.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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X-Sender: shelley@mail.mactyre.net
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 12:13:38 -0800
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <scm@mactyre.net>
Subject: Re: Presence Attacks
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At 02:32 PM 3/3/98 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>How common are Presence attacks in your game? Do heroes routinely initiate
>a PA when they enter combat by saying something like "Here I come to save
>the day!", or is it more for unique circumstances? In my games, they have
>been somewhat rare, and I'm thinking maybe TOO rare.

PRE attacks are common *flops* in my games -- we call it the Reno Curse
that no one can roll much on a PRE attack no matter how many dice are used.
I think our all time record was 8 on 6 dice. If they can just match the
PRE they're pretty pleased with themselves. Yeesh!

But that doesn't stop the players from rolling them anyway. I don't have
to remind anyone or suggest it -- my players will gamely try to break the
Reno Curse whenever they get the opportunity. Usually, however, it's when
there's a chance to prevent a fight situation -- intimidating thugs and the
like.

Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
http://www.mactyre.net

A flung stone has always been a fool's favorite means of putting himself on
a level with the wise.
-- Edgar Pangborn

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 12:21:59 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Organization: Satan's Children
Subject: Re: Blue Booking
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

> What is there about blue-booking that would make it attractive or useful
> to do it at the session itself? I've never read 'Strike Force' so my
> conception of it is based on descriptions from this list and the frp
> newsgroups - I might be missing a piece...

I have never found a whole-group bluebooking session to make a lot of
sense, but when any one or two characters is/are doing something either
secret or not obvious to others, I have them write it to me while I'm
dealing with the others. It is simply - in my case - a more organized
version of passing notes. It also gives a slightly different feel in
dispersing information to the group through one character. I.E. only
one character has learned the true plan of Dr. Nasty. Instead of just
telling everyone, with the assumption/understanding that the information
will be disseminated, I only give the info to the one player, then (s)he
is responsible for passing on the info - plus his/her own biases and
preferences. It can take a game into a completely new direction....
And it saves time from taking them to another room to talk. Plus it can
be done in a way that is not so obvious to those who are busy with their
own aspects of the game.


--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah


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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 12:24:06 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Module in 3rd edition GM's screen (Island of Dr. Destroyer)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 10:40 AM 3/3/1998 -0800, John Desmarais wrote:
>---Brian Wong wrote:
>>
>> Hello;
>>
>> Does anyone know if the module that shows up in the third edition
>> GM's screen shows up anywhere else as well?
>> This is the "Island of Dr. Destroyer" module that serves as a prelude
>> to the fourth edition module also dealing with Dr. Destroyer.
>>
>> Rook
>
>I haven't read either in a long time, but I'm pretty sure that the
>adventure that comes with the 4th edition GM screen is just a update
>to the 3rd edition one.

No, they're two different adventures. "Island of Doctor Destroyer"
deals with his launching of a mind-control satellite; the island in
question, just incidentally later became the new location for Sanctuary.
"Day of the Destroyer," on the other hand, involves a device that will
electronically wipe out a random 90% of the world's population.
Oh, and sorry, Rook; I don't have the Island book, though I wish I did.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Presence Attacks
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:29:00 -0800 (PST)
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To: champ-l@omg.org

>
> How common are Presence attacks in your game? Do heroes routinely
>
On a related question, how long should the effects last?

Let's say you get a PRE+30 effect. Should the command stay for a while
like a mind control, or what?

I have a villian who has a barbie doll that yells out annoying
commands like "Let's Go shopping!" or "I Love to Drive!" or "How's my hair?"
etc...

The desired effect is to pause everyone in their tracks and make them
feel a desire to do as barbie does. She also has a transformation that will
give people the mindset of Barbie or Ken 'permanently' (until it's undone).

I modelled it by giving Barbie the ability to do an 11d6 PRE attack
but have wondered if Mind Control would have been better. However it's not
suppossed to be something that has a long and controlling hold, but rather
a strong impulse to follow the leader.

Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 12:34:52 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Presence Attacks
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 02:32 PM 3/3/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>How common are Presence attacks in your game? Do heroes routinely initiate
>a PA when they enter combat by saying something like "Here I come to save
>the day!", or is it more for unique circumstances? In my games, they have
>been somewhat rare, and I'm thinking maybe TOO rare.

In every gaming group I've been in, I've used a rule that the good guys
should give the bad guys a chance to surrender before beating the crap out
of them. This is a rule used by a large number of police departments (a
majority, I believe), and a general guage of whether excessive force was
used. There are specific exceptions (as in the case of extremely dangerous
criminals), but it's the general rule.
I've not only played with this rule myself, but I've also given my
fellow players the information that this is how things are normally done.
Since it's fairly fitting to the genre anyway, there have been few
arguments against it.
The Presence Attack doesn't have to be, "Police! You're under arrest!"
or something as dry as that. For well-known heroes, there's also, "Do you
want to do this the easy way, or the hard way?" -- even as cliched as
that's becoming. My personal favorite along these lines is, "You're going
to jail; do you want to do it vertically, or horizontally?"
It's also very genre for big-ego villains to make big PRE Attacks, like,
"People of Earth, bow down to your new absolute ruler!"
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:36:32 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Presence Attacks
Cc: "\[unknown\]" <champ-l@omg.org>
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

---David Stallard wrote:
>
> How common are Presence attacks in your game? Do heroes routinely
initiate
> a PA when they enter combat by saying something like "Here I come to
save
> the day!", or is it more for unique circumstances? In my games,
they have
> been somewhat rare, and I'm thinking maybe TOO rare.


At the Superhero level I'm used to seeing at least one PRE attack per
session. At the Heroic level almost none.
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Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:36:32 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Presence Attacks
Cc: "\[unknown\]" <champ-l@omg.org>
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

---David Stallard wrote:
>
> How common are Presence attacks in your game? Do heroes routinely
initiate
> a PA when they enter combat by saying something like "Here I come to
save
> the day!", or is it more for unique circumstances? In my games,
they have
> been somewhat rare, and I'm thinking maybe TOO rare.


At the Superhero level I'm used to seeing at least one PRE attack per
session. At the Heroic level almost none.
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 12:37:24 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 11:47 AM 3/3/1998 -0600, bobby farris wrote:
>I want to thank everyone for response to my questions. I apprecitate
>the help. I have always had a problem with Elemental Controls and you
>have helped me a great deal. Now all I have to do is remake some
>characters and convince others to do so as well.
>
> My next question is a little harder. Under what circumstances would you
>allow a person to buy stats in an EC? The problem I have always had with
>stats in an EC is that it seems to be a cheap way to get high stats with
>little cost.
> However, I don't want to say that I would NEVER allow stats to be
>placed in an EC, but can't think of any specific example to give. Can
>anyone else think of any? Would allowing them in with the fact that they
>don't count against figured characteristics be unbalancing?

I would allow stats in an EC only under unusual circumstances, where
there's some underlying Special Effect (other than just "being really
tough" or something equally lame) which affects all of the stats. One good
rule of thumb I use for this is whether an Adjustment Power vs Special
Effect would affect the stats in the EC, but would be unable to affect the
stats outside the EC. Being an Advanced Generation Mutant was a good
example; a Suppress vs Mutant Powers would lower the stats to whatever
level they were at without the EC. "Stretching Powers" might grant extra
PD, BODY, and CON. Cyborgs often have artificially-enhanced STR, and so
this might qualify for an EC bonus.
Of course, in many cases, the character would arguably be better off
with an bonus value equal in full value to less than the size of the EC
pool. This is especially true of beginning characters, which often feel a
"point squeeze" -- to say nothing of the fact that I require virtually
every point to be logically justified for the character.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:38:32 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: RE: Module in 3rd edition GM's screen (Island of Dr. Destroyer)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

---Michael Sprague wrote:
>
> I do not believe that an adventure came with the 4th ed. GM screen.
I just
> took a look at my screen (which is all apart, of course), and an
adventure
> is _not_ one of the things that came with it (I didn't find one, and
it's
> not listed as one of the things in the package).
>
> I specifically bought a copy of the third edition GM screen, so that
I
> would get a copy of the "Island of Dr. Destroyer." To my knowledge,
this
> advent was never published anywhere else.
>

Hmmm. Now I gotta go find the 4th edition screen (I haven't used it
in years as I prefer my own screen). I coulda swore an adventure came
with it - oh well...
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From: Michael Sprague <msprague@eznet.net>
Reply-To: "msprague@eznet.net" <msprague@eznet.net>
Subject: RE: Presence Attacks
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:50:42 -0500
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

I also tend to find them rare, and there are two reasons.

1) Psychological: The player usually has to come up with a good soliloquy
on the spot, which the GM (and the other players) will judge. I have seen
GM's actually remove a 1d6 because of what he claimed was a bad soliloquy.

This can be hard to fix, depending on your group. GM's often need to be
less critical, and players need to keep their mouths shut! :-) I have
also seen too many GM's base their "soliloquy bonus" on their in depth
knowledge of the player character and the target, rather than what the
target knows and the situation at hand.


2) Effectiveness: Unless your players tend to have a high PRE (and I have
yet to play in a group where this is the case), then Presence attacks tend
to be ineffective ... though once in a while you get your target to lose
half a phase. Mostly I have seen it used after something spectacular
happened. I have played Champions/Hero System for 13 or 14 years now, and
I think I have only ever really had one good Presence attack.

This is especially bad if your playing a Heroic level game, rather than
Superheroic. In that case, you have a characteristic maxima of 20. Good
enough to avoid others Presence attacks, but still difficult to affect
others. One house rule I use (everyone in our group has also picked it up)
is to drop the -1d6 if your in combat, and to add +1d6 if your out of
combat. That helps a little.

For Heroic level games, I have also toyed with the idea of PRE/3 d6 for
Presence attacks, rather than the standard PRE/5 d6 ... though I have not
actually tried it.


While on the subject of PRE and Presence attacks, another thing that
bothers me is that you can use EGO in place of PRE vs. Presence attacks.
Yes, it sort of makes sense from a realism point of view, but not from a
game balance point of view. As a house rule, I do not allow EGO to be used
in place of PRE against Presence attacks (most of our group picked this one
up also).


Last, out of curiosity, how would you GM the following, which happened to
me several years ago. I am still undecided ... was it a creative use of
Presence attack, or was the GM correct in what he did?

My character, upon entering battle, attacked with a fairly impressive
ranged attack, but missed. He did a lot of damage to the ground very near
the targets. Trying to make the best out of it, I decided to try a
Presence attack, and warned the villains that I had just fired a warning
shot. If they didn't surrender, the next shot would be dead on.

The GM just laughed at me, and said "Sure, you can make a Presence attack
... at -2d6. The villains are laughing at you!" Now, he did that based on
the knowledge that I had tried to hit the villains and missed, vs. from
their perspective where I had just done a lot of damage to the ground next
to them. Needless to say, it was a serious failure. I think that maybe
they should have had to make a PRE or INT roll to know that I had actually
tried to hit them and missed.

~ Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: David Stallard [SMTP:DBStallard@compuserve.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 1998 2:32 PM
To: champ-l@omg.org
Cc: [unknown]
Subject: Presence Attacks

How common are Presence attacks in your game? Do heroes routinely initiate
a PA when they enter combat by saying something like "Here I come to save
the day!", or is it more for unique circumstances? In my games, they have
been somewhat rare, and I'm thinking maybe TOO rare.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:54:47 -0500
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Presence Attacks
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org


At 02:32 PM 3/3/98 -0500, David Stallard wrote:

>How common are Presence attacks in your game? Do heroes routinely initiate
>a PA when they enter combat by saying something like "Here I come to save
>the day!", or is it more for unique circumstances? In my games, they have
>been somewhat rare, and I'm thinking maybe TOO rare.

They're fairly common in my games - especially superhero games.
One reason for this is that I frequently declare that a PC is
doing a Presence Attack while I am the GM. To me, a Presence
Attack is the result of being impressive, and one need not
consciously decide to be impressive in order to impress. (IN
many cases in the real world, *trying* to impress is actually
a detriment to impressiveness.)

Thus, a character who uses his 60 STR to come smashing through
the wall of a building is probably doing a Presence Attack if
there's anybody on the other side. If you're not expecting a
superhero to come smashing through the wall, it's probably going
to make an impression on you whether he's threatening you or not.

On the other hand, some of these involuntary Presence Attacks
have been known to act against the PC's. Not only do my villains
make PRE Attacks frequently, but heroes have been known to
startle one another at bad moments. (Naturally, this doesn't
happen if they have a plan and stick to it, or if the threat is
clearly to the opposing side.)

Perhaps because of these frequent GM-declared Presence Attacks,
PRE is often on my players minds, so they're pretty quick to
declare PRE attacks as well. I've had no complaints with my
approach, and I think it makes for a good superheroic feel.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 12:59:12 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Organization: Satan's Children
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

bobby farris wrote:

> What brings this up is one of my players wants to play an advanced
> mutant. In the mutant book it gives a package deal for advanced mutants
> and states that advanced mutants have characteristics in the 20-30's
> across the board. He wants to put his charcteristics in a Mutant powers
> Elemental Control. I feel this is kind of power gaming, but I don't know
> what to tell him.

I would rule that "Advanced Mutant" is not a coherent enough concept
for an EC. I would also rule that characteristics which are normal,
'always on' characteristics should be bought _as_characteristics_. I
WOULD allow CHAR in an EC in a couple of instances, such as
characteristic boosts which cost END or are temporary.

In your player's case, perhaps he should be encouraged to take a
Disad specifically tied to his 'Advanced Mutant'ness, and tell him that
it's now a 'package deal'.

I am also of the opinion (formed in the midst of a long, ugly
debate/fistfight over ECs from before) that Characteristics could very
well be viewed as their own EC; Human abilities. With the inherant
point breaks and figured CHAR and whatnot, the collection of
characteristics simulates an EC-type point savings. And it is a
well-defined class opf abilities, since they are 'powers' that every
human has. This could be the best arguement for not allowing CHAR in
ECs; they already are.

Also, to rally against the "Character Concept is important for ALL,
not just ECs" cry, allow me to point out that the BBB is in fact a
little more specific than that.

To wit; "Elemental Control is intended as a bonus for characters
whose _powers_AND_special_effects_[emphasis mine] are
closely connected with character conception." -BBB pg.112

Thus, an EC is not simply for a 'good character conception' but for a
conception in which the powers have a coherent set of SFX, clearly
related with each other and with the character concept overall.
This doesn't speak directly to CHAR in ECs, but as I said, in my
view, CHAR are already in an effective EC, and ECs don't stack.

--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:07:57 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: pod@avalon.net
From: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net>
Subject: Presence Attacks
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

>Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:32:02 -0500
>From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Presence Attacks
>Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
>Content-Disposition: inline
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>X-Hero: champ-l
>To: champ-l@omg.org
>X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by arthur.avalon.net id
NAA19035
>
>How common are Presence attacks in your game? Do heroes routinely initiate
>a PA when they enter combat by saying something like "Here I come to save
>the day!", or is it more for unique circumstances? In my games, they have
>been somewhat rare, and I'm thinking maybe TOO rare.
>
>
I've had people use PA in my campaign and so far, they have been
ineffective. However, I do so like it when people actually use them. I
find that it adds a bit of spice to a session.

House of Spackle
pod@avalon.net

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:12:18 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Subject: Pre Attacks
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org



I don't think they should be non-existent in heroic games. It
seems to be something quite fitting.

Look at The Princess Bride (movie version). The to the pain
speech was an excellent example of just what a Pre attack should be.

How many dice do you think he was tossing for that attack?



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:17:37 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: HSR vs BBB
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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I have the BBB (the cover fell apart so it is now in a 3-ring binder), and
was thinking about picking up the HSR just to have another copy of the
rules on hand, since not all my players have their own copy. I found out
recently that the HSR includes some errata from issue 16 of the Adventurers
Journal... Is this errata clearly stated in its own section, or is it
integrated into the rules? I would prefer that it have its own section,
because I don't want to have to read the whole rulebook to discover the
changes. Anyway, I'm not sure that it's worth picking up since 5th Edition
is supposed to be out by the end of this year.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:24:31 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: HSR vs BBB
Cc: "\[unknown\]" <champ-l@omg.org>
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

---David Stallard wrote:
>
> I have the BBB (the cover fell apart so it is now in a 3-ring
binder), and
> was thinking about picking up the HSR just to have another copy of the
> rules on hand, since not all my players have their own copy. I
found out
> recently that the HSR includes some errata from issue 16 of the
Adventurers
> Journal... Is this errata clearly stated in its own section, or is it
> integrated into the rules? I would prefer that it have its own
section,
> because I don't want to have to read the whole rulebook to discover
the
> changes. Anyway, I'm not sure that it's worth picking up since 5th
Edition
> is supposed to be out by the end of this year.

The corrections are integrated into the text of the volume.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:24:31 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: HSR vs BBB
Cc: "\[unknown\]" <champ-l@omg.org>
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

---David Stallard wrote:
>
> I have the BBB (the cover fell apart so it is now in a 3-ring
binder), and
> was thinking about picking up the HSR just to have another copy of the
> rules on hand, since not all my players have their own copy. I
found out
> recently that the HSR includes some errata from issue 16 of the
Adventurers
> Journal... Is this errata clearly stated in its own section, or is it
> integrated into the rules? I would prefer that it have its own
section,
> because I don't want to have to read the whole rulebook to discover
the
> changes. Anyway, I'm not sure that it's worth picking up since 5th
Edition
> is supposed to be out by the end of this year.

The corrections are integrated into the text of the volume.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:30:08 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Module in 3rd edition GM's screen (Island of Dr. Destroyer)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

---Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> At 10:40 AM 3/3/1998 -0800, John Desmarais wrote:
> >---Brian Wong wrote:
> >>
> >> Hello;
> >>
> >> Does anyone know if the module that shows up in the third edition
> >> GM's screen shows up anywhere else as well?
> >> This is the "Island of Dr. Destroyer" module that serves as a
prelude
> >> to the fourth edition module also dealing with Dr. Destroyer.
> >>
> >> Rook
> >
> >I haven't read either in a long time, but I'm pretty sure that the
> >adventure that comes with the 4th edition GM screen is just a update
> >to the 3rd edition one.
>
> No, they're two different adventures. "Island of Doctor Destroyer"
> deals with his launching of a mind-control satellite; the island in
> question, just incidentally later became the new location for
Sanctuary.
> "Day of the Destroyer," on the other hand, involves a device that will
> electronically wipe out a random 90% of the world's population.
> Oh, and sorry, Rook; I don't have the Island book, though I wish
I did.

No, not the stand-alone book that was published "Day of the
Destroyer", but I seem to recall (although it's been years) when I
bought my 4th edition screen there was a copy of "Island of Doctor
Destroyer" in it, like the 3rd editon screen (of course, I could be
confusing the two screens in my head).
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 13:38:08 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Classic Comic Cliches...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

While speculating about what our Evil GM might have in store for us, I came
up with a list of classic comic-book cliches, esp. team comic book cliches.
Any more?
======
a)We meet a Cosmic Entity Of Unlimited Power
b)We all lose our powers and have to beat the bad guy with just our guile
and wits. (We're dead.)
c)We enter a parallel dimension
d)Someone's parent/child/sibling shows up and is a villain
e)Someone dies. "The passing...of a HERO!"
f)Someone quits. "Watchtower...no more!"
g)We meet aliens.
h)We meed a Golden Age hero.
i)One of us is granted near-godlike powers and for no readily discernible
reason turns on the rest of us. ("My ally...my enemy!")
j)We all sit around the campfire and do flashbacks to our origins.
k)We meet another team of heroes and attack them, again for no readily
discernible reason.
======

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:55:28 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Pre Attacks
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

> Look at The Princess Bride (movie version). The to the pain
>speech was an excellent example of just what a Pre attack should be.
>
> How many dice do you think he was tossing for that attack?

Let's see. Wesley probably had around 20 PRE, so that's 4D6 to start...
Strong Reputation (Dread Pirate Roberts) +1D6...
Surprise (Coming Back From 'The Dead') +1D6...
Incredible Soliloquy +3D6...
Appropriate Setting (making challenges before a fight) +1D6...

So we're looking at at least 10D6, maybe more (Oratory roll, and Prince
Humperdink might have been under partial retreat (castle being attacked,
etc.) for another +2D6...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:57:32 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: PRE attacks, part 2
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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>From the responses I've been getting, it looks like some groups routinely
do a PRE attack when they initiate combat and give an initial soliloquoy
(sp?). That sounds a little excessive to me. My idea of a PRE attack is
more like the example of smashing through a brick wall, or somehow
demonstrating your power to impress the opponents. Just saying "I'm gonna
get you" at the beginning of combat doesn't sound like a PRE attack.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:02:08 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Blue Booking
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by INTERNET:cptspith@teleport.com
>I only give the info to the one player, then (s)he
is responsible for passing on the info - plus his/her own biases and
preferences. It can take a game into a completely new direction....
And it saves time from taking them to another room to talk.<

How does bluebooking save time from going into another room? The GM still
has to stop what he's doing and write a note to a player. It can save time
in that the player can write his note while the GM continues, but there
will be pauses in the game while the GM replies. My past experience with
bluebooking has been that the rest of the group is sitting around bored
while the GM conducts bluebook actions with a certain player. Everyone on
this list so far has been gung ho for bluebooking, but I would advise
against it. You can talk a lot faster than you can write, so just take the
player in another room and minimize the agony for the other players.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Prodipto Roy <proy@MICROSOFT.com>
Subject: RE: Presence Attacks
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:04:45 -0800
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

The one thing I loathe about Presence attacks is the subjectiveness of
violent actions and/or soliloquies. What's a Violent Action? What's an
Extremely or Incredibly Violent Action? What constitutes a Good, or
Excellent, or Incredible Soliloquy? It's strictly a judgment call by the
GM. I've only seen a soliloquy bonus once in the last 10 years or so that
I've played.

As far as getting dice, probably the best setup for a Presence Attack I ever
had was in a Genocide base. I was the only PC that wasn't a mutant. I
snuck in earlier and captured the commander of the base. I then put on his
armor and pretended to be him when the rest of the group attacked the base.
While quietly sabotaging defense attempts, I made overt pretenses of leading
them against the stinking mutie scum. Finally, the group destroyed the cap
on the geothermal energy source the base was using, and I led the Genocide
forces safely out of the base before it was consumed by lava.

I then said "You all did an excellent job. Unfortunately..." then I
triggered a machine gun blast at their feet "I'm with the Equalizers. You
have the right to remain silent..." I wound up with a 15d6 PRE attack. My
PRE was 10.

This, unfortunately is the exception rather than the rule. Also, I've found
that an Egoist, no matter how mousy is virtually immune to PRE attacks. Why
should an underconfident Egoist be immune to intimidation, just on the basis
that they have to have a high EGO? It's like making DEX an optional defense
against PRE attacks. I prefer to strictly use PRE to defend against PRE
attacks, rather than making EGO an optional defense. It may be more
"realistic," but hardly fair in game terms. Anyone ever try a PRE attack
against Psi? Didn't think so.

--Pro

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: nolan@pop.erols.com
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 17:12:56 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: PRE attacks, part 2
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

<x-rich>At 04:57 PM 3/3/98 -0500, David Stallard wrote:

>>From the responses I've been getting, it looks like some groups routinely

>do a PRE attack when they initiate combat and give an initial soliloquoy

>(sp?). That sounds a little excessive to me. My idea of a PRE attack is

>more like the example of smashing through a brick wall, or somehow

>demonstrating your power to impress the opponents. Just saying "I'm gonna

>get you" at the beginning of combat doesn't sound like a PRE attack.


No, but the rush of wind, the clap of thunder and the crowd gasping "It's Team Shitkick!" -That's- a presence attack.


Scott



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum,

minutus carborata descendum pantorum."

-- (A little song, a little dance,

a little seltzer down your pants.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

<bold>Scott C. Nolan

</bold>nolan@erols>

</x-rich>
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Enforcing four color
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:29:06 -0800 (PST)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

Hello;

This is less advice on how to deal with players as it is a request
on how to control oneself as GM. I have a four color setting (featured on my
website for the curious, see the sig). What I'm noticing is I keep 'slipping'
back to more serious or deadly topics.

The first adventure I did the players had to find a girl puppeteer
who'd commandeered several villians and stolen some Anthrax. She was going
to then get her hands on a 'stealth' missile in Taiwan and use it to dispearse
the toxin. She'd found the missile by having a USAF intelligence officer who'd
made a pass at her under her control. This girl btw was only 13. She was doing
it all as part of a grudge against controlling parents and life as an army
brat.
The adventure spanned from London to Taiwan to Seoul and a prelude in
New York (it's a global team).
Now right away up there in my description I have several not so four
color elements. But old habits die hard.

Has anyone actually pulled off a full four color setting that was all
full of bright flashy heroes battling dasterdly villians, et all? I find I
can talk about and write up the sub-genre rather well; but when it comes to
the actual game, I slip out of it rather easily.
My current plot deals with the team trying to get control on an
Ethiopian woman who's just manafested 'beyonder-level' power. They have to
keep her from going boom, so to speak. :) I'll be running part two of that one
in about 4.5 hours.

Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 09:39:04 +1100
From: Mad Hamish <h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

At 05:05 PM 2/25/98 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>Another common trend I've seen in my games is that players will put all
>their attack powers (basically, powers that you only use one at a time)
>into a Multipower (usually with only Ultra slots),

Well my character has Growth & Shrinking in a multipower with ultra slots,
which I consider quite reasonable. <g>

> and all of their other
>powers (which you want to use along with others, such as defensive or
>movement powers) into an Elemental Control. I haven't found anything to
>say this is illegal, but it's obviously a way to squeeze more value out of
>your starting points. Has anyone else seen this trend? Is it discouraged,
>or perfectly fine?

It depends whether the powers really fit together. I would have no problems
with some Elemental Controls,one obvious - to me - elemental control in
comics would be Marvel's Colossus

I'd see him as having an elemental control
Organic Steel Body - all only in hero ID
Armour
Increased Strength, Increased Endurance, Increased body, Endurance etc
more armour versus heat/cold, electricity and radiation

To me they are _clearly_ linked tightly enough to classify as an Energy
Control and not that unbalancing.

I suppose you could also build Colossus with Multiform but the energy
control version would work, although looking at it multiform would probably
be more elegant...

For Wolverine - 2 Energy Controls might be reasonable
Adamantine Skeleton
HKA - claws
Armour
HTH attack (or stength only useable for damage)
Clinging (I've seen him use the claws to do some very quick climbing iirc)

Enhanced Senses
Discriminatory Sense, smell
Enhanced olfactory sense
Tracking Scent
Enhanced Perception (all senses)
(IR Vision or UV vision, I _think_ he's occasionally demonstrated
something similar but not sure)
Targeting Sense - smell
Targeting Sense - Hearing

Other characters don't really have them fit, or can be done in better ways.

I tried my last character with an EC and it didn't quite fit, the basis
was body control
Armour, Growth, Shrinking, Shapeshifting was in there iirc. I think I
wanted to put Regeneration in as well as I saw the body repairing itself
automatically.

Instead I redid it with Growth & Shrinking in a multipower, the GM wanted
my character to only have humanoid shapechanging as there is another
shapechanger in the party. The rest were just taken normally.

BTW I've just checked out Characteristics in the BBB and characteristics
in a _Multipower_ never affect figured characteristics, those in an
Elemental Conrol do, but a GM has to consent to them.

****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************

Mad Hamish

Hamish Laws
h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au
h_laws@tassie.net.au

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:45:18 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Blue Booking
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org


David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> wrote:
>
> How does bluebooking save time from going into another room? The GM stil=
> l
> has to stop what he's doing and write a note to a player. It can save ti=
> me
> in that the player can write his note while the GM continues, but there
> will be pauses in the game while the GM replies. My past experience with=
>
> bluebooking has been that the rest of the group is sitting around bored
> while the GM conducts bluebook actions with a certain player. Everyone o=
> n

In this case, I agree. Don't bluebook, take the player into the other room.
Then be prepared when you return to wait for the other players to get back
to the game after they've started talking about sports, or reciting Monty
Python lines or whatever. Seriously, I think its most effective when done
simultaneously with more than one player. Then you can be writing a response
to one player, while another player or players are thinking about *their*
response.


> this list so far has been gung ho for bluebooking, but I would advise
> against it. You can talk a lot faster than you can write, so just take t=
> he
> player in another room and minimize the agony for the other players.
>

Certainly, don't conduct a blue book session with just one player while the
others are waiting around to play.

Curt

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Presence Attacks
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:56:50 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

> Last, out of curiosity, how would you GM the following, which happened to
> me several years ago. I am still undecided ... was it a creative use of
> Presence attack, or was the GM correct in what he did?
>
> My character, upon entering battle, attacked with a fairly impressive
> ranged attack, but missed. He did a lot of damage to the ground very near
> the targets. Trying to make the best out of it, I decided to try a
> Presence attack, and warned the villains that I had just fired a warning
> shot. If they didn't surrender, the next shot would be dead on.
>
> The GM just laughed at me, and said "Sure, you can make a Presence attack
> ... at -2d6. The villains are laughing at you!" Now, he did that based on
> the knowledge that I had tried to hit the villains and missed, vs. from
> their perspective where I had just done a lot of damage to the ground next
> to them. Needless to say, it was a serious failure. I think that maybe
> they should have had to make a PRE or INT roll to know that I had actually
> tried to hit them and missed.

I would have given you a big bonus for a violent action. Maybe even
another bonus for good use of a failed action. :)

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 15:00:05 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Enforcing four color
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At 02:29 PM 3/3/98 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:

> Has anyone actually pulled off a full four color setting that was all
>full of bright flashy heroes battling dasterdly villians, et all? I find I
>can talk about and write up the sub-genre rather well; but when it comes to
>the actual game, I slip out of it rather easily.

Well, speaking as one of the players in the game, it was fun regardless.
But my advice on 'four coloring' would be to start with a 'realistic' plot
and then alter the elements. For example:

Instead of Anthrax, make it a genetically engineered super-virus.
Instead of a normal enough stealth missile, make it an 'teleport drive'
that flickers in and out of reality so fast that anti-missile technologies
can't get a lock on it.

Etc.

The Star Wars RPG has very good advice on running a cinematic game -- a lot
of it applicable to superhero gaming, as well.

FWIW, I have the opposite problem...I tried to run a grim&gritty cyberpunk
game, and it quickly became something along the lines of "Super Cyborgs vs.
The Invaders From Dimension X!" Well, not THAT bad, but very close.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:09:47 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Enforcing four color
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Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> writes:

> I have a four color setting (featured on my
> website for the curious, see the sig). What I'm noticing is I keep 'slipping'
> back to more serious or deadly topics.
>
> The first adventure I did the players had to find a girl puppeteer
> who'd commandeered several villians and stolen some Anthrax. She was going
> to then get her hands on a 'stealth' missile in Taiwan and use it to dispearse
> the toxin. She'd found the missile by having a USAF intelligence officer who'd
> made a pass at her under her control. This girl btw was only 13. She was doing
> it all as part of a grudge against controlling parents and life as an army
> brat.
> Now right away up there in my description I have several not so four
> color elements. But old habits die hard.

Which are ? I'm guessing the villain's motivation and the 'pass at her under
her control but she's only 13 part'.

>
> Has anyone actually pulled off a full four color setting that was all
> full of bright flashy heroes battling dasterdly villians, et all? I find I
> can talk about and write up the sub-genre rather well; but when it comes to
> the actual game, I slip out of it rather easily.

Well, I suppose you could always review your plot ahead of time and change
the elements which don't appear to be 'four color'. I'm at a bit of a loss
as to the actual problem. For instance, your scenario below doesn't sound
like it's NOT 4 color. I don't consider having scenarios of earth-shattering
scope to be outside the 4 color genre.

> My current plot deals with the team trying to get control on an
> Ethiopian woman who's just manafested 'beyonder-level' power. They have to
> keep her from going boom, so to speak. :)

Curt

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Prodipto Roy <proy@MICROSOFT.com>
Subject: RE: Blue Booking
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:17:22 -0800
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The way we typically work it in our campaign is to set up folders with blank
paper in it (one folder for each player). Each player can write as many
notes to the GM as he wants, which the GM then reviews and replies to over
the course of the intervening week. Unless it's something that *has* to
happen real time, this works pretty effectively. Everybody gets to have
their little secrets, and the flow of the game is uninterrupted.

--Pro

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 16:23:59 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Classic Comic Cliches...
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At 01:38 PM 3/3/1998 -0800, Lizard wrote:
>While speculating about what our Evil GM might have in store for us, I came
>up with a list of classic comic-book cliches, esp. team comic book cliches.
>Any more?
>======
>a)We meet a Cosmic Entity Of Unlimited Power
>b)We all lose our powers and have to beat the bad guy with just our guile
>and wits. (We're dead.)
>c)We enter a parallel dimension
>d)Someone's parent/child/sibling shows up and is a villain
>e)Someone dies. "The passing...of a HERO!"
>f)Someone quits. "Watchtower...no more!"
>g)We meet aliens.
>h)We meed a Golden Age hero.
>i)One of us is granted near-godlike powers and for no readily discernible
>reason turns on the rest of us. ("My ally...my enemy!")
>j)We all sit around the campfire and do flashbacks to our origins.
>k)We meet another team of heroes and attack them, again for no readily
>discernible reason.
>======

Here's what I can come up with offhand, given in no particular order,
add letters as desired:

We have to collect a number of ingredients or parts for something from
various points around the world, which happen to number exactly half the
number of our group.
Our greatest enemies as individual heroes have banded together into a
villain team.
A foreign member's home country/planet/dimension is threatened, and he
brings along his buddies to help.
The base computer goes screwy for some obscure reason.
Somebody's created an international haven for supervillains.
The mantle of a slain (or otherwise "retired") villain has been taken up
by a mysterious newcomer.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 16:32:10 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
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At 06:39 PM 3/2/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "L" == Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> writes:
>
>L> Having a mechanic to model how strong the effect is vs. resistance is
>L> useful.
>
>Having a mechanic to model how strong the effect is vs. resistance is a
>cop-out. We are not talking about damage, we are talking about an
>irrational feeling, and the irrational defies rational explanation.
>
So eliminate all mechanics for mental powers, then. "You feel like
attacking your teammates". "Uhm...I don't want to." "Too bad, you're
attacking them. And you're using your 10d6 KA."

(Ever see the KOTDT where BA tries 'diceless roleplaying'? It's starting to
sound something like that...)

In the case of something which doesn't have the SFX to mandate writing it
up as a power, by all means, roleplay it. If someone take "Distinctive
Features:Really squicks people out for no readily apparent reason", that
ought to be roleplayed. If, OTOH, the character is defined as a 'mutant who
radiates an aura of fear', I'd like to see the dice.

To my mind, a phys lim, and how people react to it, is dependant on the
role-playing of the other characters. A person with the phys lim 'brain in
a jar' might evoke reactions ranging from disgust to pity to cold
curiousity. OTOH, if I define the brain in a jar as possessing the
telepathic ability to cause a consistent reaction in all viewers,
regardless of their personality (for example 'Do not be afraid. Brains in
jars are perfectly normal'), then there ought to be a mechanic to resolve
the interaction between the desires of the roleplayer and the effect of the
power. (Example:Character has a psych lim, 'Easily Freaked'. The players
reaction, upon seeing the brain, and considering his psych lim, would be,
"I run screaming!". The GM can then say either:
a)No you don't, you stay put.
b)(Rolls some dice) You are about to do so, when you feel strangely calm.
You know you *ought* to be scared, but somehow, you're not. Or, if the
effect of the power was not enough to overcome the psych lim, the GM would
say "You hesitate for half a second, as if maybe this isn't so bad after
all -- THEN you freak and run screaming!" The random factor, where even the
GM doesn't know how the player will react until the dice are tossed,
enhances the gaming experience IMO.

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 16:33:12 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Enforcing four color
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At 03:00 PM 3/3/1998 -0800, Lizard wrote:
>At 02:29 PM 3/3/98 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:
>
>> Has anyone actually pulled off a full four color setting that was all
>>full of bright flashy heroes battling dasterdly villians, et all? I find I
>>can talk about and write up the sub-genre rather well; but when it comes to
>>the actual game, I slip out of it rather easily.
>
>Well, speaking as one of the players in the game, it was fun regardless.
>But my advice on 'four coloring' would be to start with a 'realistic' plot
>and then alter the elements. For example:
>
>Instead of Anthrax, make it a genetically engineered super-virus.
>Instead of a normal enough stealth missile, make it an 'teleport drive'
>that flickers in and out of reality so fast that anti-missile technologies
>can't get a lock on it.

That's a good one.
When we say, "Four-color," I think, "Silver Age," meaning the period
from the comeback of comics in the early sixties until the Crisis on
Infinite Earths in the late eighties, which though unrelated to the influx
of "darker" comics and graphic novels nonetheless is a good marker for the
"Post-Modern Age" of more graphically violent (and allegedly "realistic")
adventures.
Much of the dividing point here is that, in Silver Age standards, the
devices being dealt with are largely fictional or leading-edge technology
that only the heroes are equipped to deal with.
Similarly, demons in Silver Age comics don't possess people and turn
them into serial murderers. A Silver Age comic book demon much more likely
to "possess" a nuclear power plant, cause it to sprout legs, and start
shooting mega-powerful nuclear blasts at skyscrapers.

>FWIW, I have the opposite problem...I tried to run a grim&gritty cyberpunk
>game, and it quickly became something along the lines of "Super Cyborgs vs.
>The Invaders From Dimension X!" Well, not THAT bad, but very close.

My problem is similar. Everything I touch becomes humorous. I could
start with something like Millenium and within six months of play make it
look like it was produced by Mel Brooks and directed by the Zucker brothers.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 16:36:29 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Module in 3rd edition GM's screen (Island of Dr. Destroyer)
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At 01:30 PM 3/3/1998 -0800, John Desmarais wrote:
>---Bob Greenwade wrote:
>> No, they're two different adventures. "Island of Doctor Destroyer"
>> deals with his launching of a mind-control satellite; the island in
>> question, just incidentally later became the new location for Sanctuary.
>> "Day of the Destroyer," on the other hand, involves a device that will
>> electronically wipe out a random 90% of the world's population.
>> Oh, and sorry, Rook; I don't have the Island book, though I wish I did.
>
>No, not the stand-alone book that was published "Day of the
>Destroyer", but I seem to recall (although it's been years) when I
>bought my 4th edition screen there was a copy of "Island of Doctor
>Destroyer" in it, like the 3rd editon screen (of course, I could be
>confusing the two screens in my head).

Either you had a much earlier copy than I did, or you are indeed getting
the two of them confused. My 4th Edition GM's Screen did come with some
stuff, but it was just a quick reference for the rules, some extra
character sheets and other helpful control sheets (like vehicle, base,
combat, and such), plus some cheap Cardboard Heroes and a two-sided hex map.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 16:42:22 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Pre Attacks
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At 03:12 PM 3/3/1998 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> I don't think they should be non-existent in heroic games. It
>seems to be something quite fitting.
>
> Look at The Princess Bride (movie version). The to the pain
>speech was an excellent example of just what a Pre attack should be.
>
> How many dice do you think he was tossing for that attack?

Well, let's see:

15 PRE 3d6
Obvious Disadvantage -1d6
Incredible Soliloquy 3d6

That comes to 5d6. If I remember correctly, he did get better than
Humperdinck's EGO; the Prince was impressed, and did hesitate.
An even better PRE Attack, IMO was: "Drop... your... sword."
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Jedi EC?
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 03 Mar 1998 20:23:34 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "JaRP" == John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net> writes:

JaRP> All in all, it's probably best for a Jedi to have Multipower:
JaRP> Lightsaber and a VPP only for Jedi Powers (slightly limited group,
JaRP> -1/4).

Actually, the way I did it was with a VPP for the Jedi's powers, and an HKA
(with a few advantages) for the light saber. Most of the powers in the VPP
had either some degree Concentration or had the light saber as a Focus.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
\ Earth, presumably from outer space.

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From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com>
Subject: Re: Enforcing four color
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 19:29:05 CST
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> >> Has anyone actually pulled off a full four color setting that was all
> >>full of bright flashy heroes battling dasterdly villians, et all? I find I
> >>can talk about and write up the sub-genre rather well; but when it comes to
> >>the actual game, I slip out of it rather easily.
> >
> >Well, speaking as one of the players in the game, it was fun regardless.
> >But my advice on 'four coloring' would be to start with a 'realistic' plot
> >and then alter the elements. For example:

Actually, unlike many people I play with, I prefer the 4-color concept...
Several of my characters have had "four-color worldview" as a psych lim...
The best was "Falcon", who had "four-color worldview, common, total" --
in the realistic game the GM was running, he believed he was actually
a comic character, and so he reacted in a four-color fashion - and it
worked - he was certifiably insane, but since he was the *LEADER* of the
hero team, and he made the team see his view on events, it worked, up
until the death of a string of family members led him to detach the
life support of the quadaraplegic supreme bad guy behind all the evil
stuff happening...

It's amazing what kind of delusions a group will share if the guy
seeing the delusions pushes them hard enough...


DonM.

--
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist dmckinne@cmi.csc.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org (217) 469-9917 =
==========================================================================

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:51:43 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Pre Attacks
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> Let's see. Wesley probably had around 20 PRE, so that's 4D6 to start...

At least.

> Strong Reputation (Dread Pirate Roberts) +1D6...

Wouldn't give it. Not applicable with Humperdink being who he is
and the power he holds.

> Surprise (Coming Back From 'The Dead') +1D6...

At least that much. Humperdink had killed him earlier that day.

> Incredible Soliloquy +3D6...

At least. That was one of the best Soliloquies I've heard or
read.

> Appropriate Setting (making challenges before a fight) +1D6...

Possibly.

> So we're looking at at least 10D6, maybe more (Oratory roll, and Prince
> Humperdink might have been under partial retreat (castle being attacked,
> etc.) for another +2D6...

Doubt the last. He still had his guards and was in a definate
position of power, especially with Westly lying on the bed. He also has
reason to expect a bluff from a Westly weakened from being dead. -2 to 3
dice is quite possible.

And don't underestimate Humperdink's PRE. He has 18-20 or more
himself.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:56:09 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
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> with some Elemental Controls,one obvious - to me - elemental control in
> comics would be Marvel's Colossus

Possibly, but without the stats.

> I'd see him as having an elemental control
> Organic Steel Body - all only in hero ID
> Armour
> Increased Strength, Increased Endurance, Increased body, Endurance etc
> more armour versus heat/cold, electricity and radiation

I could agree on the Armor and LS, but the rest is no good. Those
stats are enough of a break as is. Give them all "no figured" by default
with no bonus, and maybe. Otherwise buy the stats (and everything else)
OIHID.

> BTW I've just checked out Characteristics in the BBB and characteristics
> in a _Multipower_ never affect figured characteristics, those in an
> Elemental Conrol do, but a GM has to consent to them.

Change the last for balance's sake and, like I said, they aren't
that bad. I still will be incredibly strict with them.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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X-Sender: Cypriot@pop3.concentric.net
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 21:49:32 -0500
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Cruel interpretation of Teleport
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In reading over the teleport rules, i.e.
"The character can teleport to any spot he can
see as long as it's within his range."
I see a loophole on which a cruel and heartless GM can
capitalize.

This example is true. Only the names have changed to
protect the innocent. Let's say that Dark Dog has a 30"
Teleport. And just to make things interesting, he also
has a x4 multiplier. He can teleport 120" per phase.

But with a 23 INT, he has a Perception roll of 14-.
Which means that he can teleport 120" IF HE CAN SEE
the point at the other end, for which he is at a -8.

Which leaves two options: (1) he attempts his full 120"
teleport anyway, effectively blind, for which the GM gives
him a reasonably fair chance to miss embedding himself in
the asphalt, or (2) his teleport becomes limited to the
amount by which he makes perception: a roll of 10 on the
dice would make his perception by 4, allowing a maximum
safe teleport of 31".

Why am I being so cruel on this matter? (1) Because it's
difficult to design a situation for which the character is
forced to push the limits of his teleport, and (2) I like
to fuck with this particular player.

Here's my question: Is this an unreasonable perversion of
the rules?



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X-Sender: Cypriot@pop3.concentric.net
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 21:53:40 -0500
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Pre Attacks
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>> Strong Reputation (Dread Pirate Roberts) +1D6...
>
> Wouldn't give it. Not applicable with Humperdink being who he is
>and the power he holds.
>

He's got the reputation regardless. In the back of his mind,
Humperdink would know that and it would worry him. It would
only be his own presence (including modifiers) that would
counteract the reputation bonus.

(On the other hand, I don't recall that the prince ever had
reason to equate Westly with Roberts. He only knew that the
guy was from Roberts' ship.)

====================== =================================================
Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
====================== =================================================

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X-Sender: Cypriot@pop3.concentric.net
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 21:58:13 -0500
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Pre Attacks
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> An even better PRE Attack, IMO was: "Drop... your... sword."


Forgive the tangent, but how about votes for the best
"Psych Lim: Overconfidence" scene in the movies?

* Danny Glover at the end of Predator II:
"All right ... Who's next?"

* Luke Skywalker in Muppets in Space III:
"Surrender now, Jabba, and I'll let you live."
(While bound and walking the plank)



====================== =================================================
Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
====================== =================================================

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: ural.owlnet.rice.edu: chip owned process doing -bs
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:08:24 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Cruel interpretation of Teleport
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On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Mike Christodoulou wrote:

> This example is true. Only the names have changed to
> protect the innocent. Let's say that Dark Dog has a 30"
> Teleport. And just to make things interesting, he also
> has a x4 multiplier. He can teleport 120" per phase.

I thought that this is only 120" every OTHER phase.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 19:17:07 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Bryant Berggren wrote:
>
> At 01:52 PM 3/2/98 -0800, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> >bobby farris writes:
> >> I usually use the Elemental Control as a bonus to give players that
> >> come up with a good character concept. The problem I am having is with
> >> players wanting to put characteristics inside an Elemental control.
> >
> >Well, they're special powers, so without special permission he can't.
>
> Actually, CHAR bought as Powers are Standard Powers, not Special Powers.
> Look it up.

The "draw back" to putting stats in EC is that you do not get any figured
stats from them
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:19:36 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Pre Attacks
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> He's got the reputation regardless. In the back of his mind,
> Humperdink would know that and it would worry him. It would
> only be his own presence (including modifiers) that would
> counteract the reputation bonus.

I think in the case of strong reputations on either side the
bonuses would be nullified. Westly certainly wasn't phased by
Humperdink's rep, which was considerable.

> (On the other hand, I don't recall that the prince ever had
> reason to equate Westly with Roberts. He only knew that the
> guy was from Roberts' ship.)

True. Again, I say the reputation won't apply. Now, back to the
earlier scene at the castle gates, there was definately a bonus for The
Dread Pirate Roberts ("is here for your soul!")


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:21:36 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Pre Attacks
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> Forgive the tangent, but how about votes for the best
> "Psych Lim: Overconfidence" scene in the movies?
>
> * Danny Glover at the end of Predator II:
> "All right ... Who's next?"

Maybe.

> * Luke Skywalker in Muppets in Space III:
> "Surrender now, Jabba, and I'll let you live."
> (While bound and walking the plank)

Definately not. He (Luke) held all the cards. Jabba just didn't
know it. Call it underestimating Jedi by Jabba.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 21:28:29 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Module in 3rd edition GM's screen (Island of Dr. Destroyer)
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>>> Does anyone know if the module that shows up in the third edition
>>> GM's screen shows up anywhere else as well?
>>> This is the "Island of Dr. Destroyer" module that serves as a prelude
>>> to the fourth edition module also dealing with Dr. Destroyer.

Well, it was apparently released on its own before the 3rd Edition screen,
with a SPR of $4.95, but I guess that's not much help. I *think* I may
have seen a copy of this at the used book store where I picked up several
used Hero items yesterday. I know they had a copy of Viper's Nest, from
the boxed set, and I may be getting it confused with that, because what I
saw was definitely a coverless adventure booklet. However, I see from my
own copy that "Island"'s cover wasn't stapled to the adventure book because
the map of the island covered the entire interior front-and-back covers.

So if the store does have the Island adventure, it's only a buck, but it's
missing the large map of the island that shows only the terrain features,
pier and Dr. D's villa with no detail. You do still get the smaller GM's
map that shows weapon emplacements, sensors and a well-traveled trail.

Damon



|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
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Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:30:32 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Jedi EC?
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>JaRP> All in all, it's probably best for a Jedi to have Multipower:
>JaRP> Lightsaber and a VPP only for Jedi Powers (slightly limited group,
>JaRP> -1/4).
>
>Actually, the way I did it was with a VPP for the Jedi's powers, and an HKA
>(with a few advantages) for the light saber. Most of the powers in the VPP
>had either some degree Concentration or had the light saber as a Focus.

That's good, yeah, but I think the Lightsaber is best as a Multipower - as
follows:

45 Multipower: Lightsaber (90 points), OAF Lightsaber (-1)
4u A.) 3D6 Energy HKA, 0 END* (+1/2), Penetrating (+1/2), No STR Adds** (-1/2)
2u B.) 3D6 Energy RKA, 0 END* (+1/2), Penetrating (+1/2), Range Based On STR
(-1/4), One Recoverable Charge (-1 1/4), Lockout (-1/4)
3u C.) Missile Deflection vs. All Attacks, +10 to Roll***, Adjacent Hexes (+1/2)
2u D.) Missile Reflection vs. All Attacks, Any Target, +10 to Roll***, Energy
Attacks Only (-1)

The lightsaber is breakable. The first two slots are universal, the next two
are personal (jedi abilities dependant upon having a lightsaber). Note in a
heroic campaign a lightsaber would only have the first two slots; the last
two would have to come from the Jedi VPP or multipower. Lightsabers are vile
things.

*Note: I never saw the lightsaber run out of juice in the movies. I dunno
about the books, though I assume it uses batteries. Given the cinematic
nature of the Star Wars universe, though, I think 0 END is justified.
**Yes, I know some people don't think energy HKA should get STR bonuses, but
by-the-book they do.
***Very optional, but notice how even novice Luke was parrying energy blasts
from the training drone, while blindfolded. There's some _large_ bonuses
involved, I tell ya.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:30:39 -0500 (EST)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Pre Attacks
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>> Let's see. Wesley probably had around 20 PRE, so that's 4D6 to start...
> At least.
>> Strong Reputation (Dread Pirate Roberts) +1D6...
> Wouldn't give it. Not applicable with Humperdink being who he is
>and the power he holds.

Excuse me? This is the same Humperdink that tracked Wesley around "he
defeated a giant", "two amazing swordsmen fought here", "he escaped the
fireswamp"...

>> Surprise (Coming Back From 'The Dead') +1D6...
> At least that much. Humperdink had killed him earlier that day.
>> Incredible Soliloquy +3D6...
> At least. That was one of the best Soliloquies I've heard or
>read.
>> Appropriate Setting (making challenges before a fight) +1D6...
> Possibly.

Iffy, I'll grant. How about 'defending his true love'? :-)

>> So we're looking at at least 10D6, maybe more (Oratory roll, and Prince
>> Humperdink might have been under partial retreat (castle being attacked,
>> etc.) for another +2D6...

> Doubt the last. He still had his guards and was in a definate
>position of power, especially with Westly lying on the bed. He also has
>reason to expect a bluff from a Westly weakened from being dead. -2 to 3
>dice is quite possible.

Ah, but Wesley _stood up_! :-) A good Acting skill on Wesley's part negated
the percieved advantage on Humperdink's part.

> And don't underestimate Humperdink's PRE. He has 18-20 or more
>himself.

It doesn't matter much in the face of, oh, 12D6. We're looking at PRE+20 on
a regular basis with that many dice. Besides, the movie Humperdink seemed a
bit wimpy for that much PRE. I'd think he'd top out at 15.

Now, you wanna talk PRE attacks, try the Giant's (darn it, I forget his name
in the story! Fezzic?...) PRE attack on the soldiers. Yikes.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

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Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 21:36:34 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Airplane: 2001 - The Millenium
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> My problem is similar. Everything I touch becomes humorous. I could
>start with something like Millenium and within six months of play make it
>look like it was produced by Mel Brooks and directed by the Zucker brothers.

"The killer doesn't see himself as others do. In his mind, he's a healer,
an angel of mercy. He -- Peter, we have to get to the hospital right away."

"The hospital? Frank, what is it?"

"It's a big building with patients. But that's not important right now."

Hee, hee! I wanna play in Bob's campaign.

Damon

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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:47:46 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Cruel interpretation of Teleport
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>In reading over the teleport rules, i.e.
> "The character can teleport to any spot he can
> see as long as it's within his range."
>I see a loophole on which a cruel and heartless GM can
>capitalize.

>But with a 23 INT, he has a Perception roll of 14-.
>Which means that he can teleport 120" IF HE CAN SEE
>the point at the other end, for which he is at a -8.

>Here's my question: Is this an unreasonable perversion of
>the rules?

No. If he can't percieve the target location, he should be told that before
he makes the teleport attempt. A person should know whether or not he has
enough detail to 'safely' teleport before he tries. Can't see it? Can't
teleport to it. PER rolls take No Time* so this should not be an issue.

*Unless you're using a Detect instead of a Sense. Sight is a Sense.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:47:54 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Pre Attacks
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>Forgive the tangent, but how about votes for the best
>"Psych Lim: Overconfidence" scene in the movies?

>* Luke Skywalker in Muppets in Space III:
> "Surrender now, Jabba, and I'll let you live."
> (While bound and walking the plank)

Arr, lad, if you're going to quote, get it right, it was (IIRC, smack me if
I'm wrong):

"Last chance, Jabba. Free us, or die."

And that _wasn't_ overconfidence...:-)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 22:09:39 -0600
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net
Organization: Red Bow Antiques
Subject: Speedsters
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What are good stats for speedsters? How can you buy a high dexterity
and high speed without putting a major majority of points into these two
slots.
If you buy a 27 dex you have spent 51points, and if you buy an
accompaning speed of 7 you have now spent 33 points. So you have spent a
total of 84 points, 1/3 your character for just two effects. Is this
right? I get the intuitive feel that it is, but I want other comments.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 20:27:07 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
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Michael Surbrook wrote:
>
> On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Bryant Berggren wrote:
>

> > Actually, CHAR bought as Powers are Standard Powers, not Special Powers.
> > Look it up.
>
> Yes, but I recall that there is a statement to the efect that CHAR can't
> go into a EC without express permission of the GM.

Hero System Rules p.60: "Characteristics can only be bought withing
Power Frameworks with special permission of the GM."

Of course, all Elemental Controls require special permission, so this is
somewhat redundant, but the point is well taken that this is an area ripe
for abuse.


--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest


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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Jedi EC?
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>>>>> "JaRP" == John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net> writes:

JaRP> That's good, yeah, but I think the Lightsaber is best as a Multipower
JaRP> - as follows:
[...]
JaRP> 3u C.) Missile Deflection vs. All Attacks, +10 to Roll***, Adjacent
JaRP> Hexes (+1/2)

This is where I have the problem: the light saber is *not* the source of
the ability as you have written it. Witness Darth Vader's trick in "The
Empire Strikes Back".

And I really dislike the idea of a Focus that is sometimes universal and
sometimes personal. That just screams "cheeze" at me.

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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged
\ exposure to Happy Fun Ball.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Jedi EC?
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>>>>> "JaRP" == John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net> writes:

JaRP> ***Very optional, but notice how even novice Luke was parrying energy
JaRP> blasts from the training drone, while blindfolded. There's some
JaRP> _large_ bonuses involved, I tell ya.

"You know, I almost could see the remote."

"Very good! You have taken your first step into a larger world."

Not bonuses, Spatial Awareness.

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X-Authentication-Warning: pentagon.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:36:32 -0600 (CST)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Pre Attacks
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On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, John and Ron Prins wrote:
> > And don't underestimate Humperdink's PRE. He has 18-20 or more
> >himself.
>
> It doesn't matter much in the face of, oh, 12D6. We're looking at PRE+20 on
> a regular basis with that many dice. Besides, the movie Humperdink seemed a
> bit wimpy for that much PRE. I'd think he'd top out at 15.

Humperdinck was never a natural leader - he would get bonuses to his PRE
attacks for being a very powerful individual, but I never got the
impression that his own PRE was that high...and if it was, part of it was
probably 'for intimidation only'. In the book he was portrayed as a bit
of a bully and a coward at heart.

Definitely a movie & book for some great soliloquies though.

"I am the Dread Pirate Roberts, and I'm coming for your SOULS!"

J

"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Speedsters
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>>>>> "bf" == bobby farris <redbf@ldd.net> writes:

bf> What are good stats for speedsters? How can you buy a high dexterity
bf> and high speed without putting a major majority of points into these two
bf> slots.

My trick is, you don't.

Instead, buy powers and combat skill levels that simulate the effects of a
speedster. For instance, instead of an 8 Speed, buy a 4 and dump some of
those points into 3-point combat skill levels with Sweep, Move By, and Move
Through maneuvers, and up your Running to a useful level. 21 points is +7
OCV with those three maneuvers, and you have 19 points left to spend on
other things, like buying a few slots in a Multipower full of "stupid
speedster tricks".

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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:41:36 -0600 (CST)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Pre Attacks
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On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, John and Ron Prins wrote:

<Princess Bride PRE attacks snipped>

And oh yes, don't forget a certain Spaniard, who despite being in an
inferior position in combat (-2d6) managed to pull off a remarkably
successful PRE attack on Count Rugen, with the help of an excellent
soliloquy (It had better be - he'd been practicing it for years! +2d6) and
surprise ("You're still trying to kill me? You have an overdeveloped sense
of vengeance." +1d6). I'm not sure if Rugen was aware of Inigo's
reputation, but he was certainly aware of his skill...

J

"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"

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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:05:12 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Pre Attacks
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> And oh yes, don't forget a certain Spaniard, who despite being in an
> inferior position in combat (-2d6) managed to pull off a remarkably
> successful PRE attack on Count Rugen, with the help of an excellent
> soliloquy (It had better be - he'd been practicing it for years! +2d6) and
> surprise ("You're still trying to kill me? You have an overdeveloped sense
> of vengeance." +1d6). I'm not sure if Rugen was aware of Inigo's
> reputation, but he was certainly aware of his skill...

Oh, quite. He had killed those four guards with remarkable ease.
Rugen was a bit shaken, but not running at this point. He tried to fight,
remember. Key word tried.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:16:34 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
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Subject: Re: Pre Attacks
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> Humperdinck was never a natural leader - he would get bonuses to his PRE
> attacks for being a very powerful individual, but I never got the
> impression that his own PRE was that high...and if it was, part of it was
> probably 'for intimidation only'. In the book he was portrayed as a bit
> of a bully and a coward at heart.

That's right. He was described as such, wasn't he. Even so, I'd
say no reputation bonus as he didn't know Westly as the Dread Pirate
Roberts and, even if he did, had seen through the story.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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X-Originating-IP: [149.229.142.60]
From: "" <dgraham882@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: PBeM tips?
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 21:43:18 PST
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>I've been kicking around the idea of starting a Champions PBeM.
Without
>doing a lot of lurking around on the web, I thought maybe some of you
>experienced Champs PBeM players/GMs could answer a question for me.
How =
>do
>you handle combat? Do you ask players for their general battle plan
and
>then run the entire combat yourself, perhaps stopping for more input at
a=
>
>critical moment (such as when the bad guys get reinforcements)? Or
maybe=
>
>you get an entire turn's worth of actions, resolve them, and ask for
the
>next turn? It seems like you have to consolidate it somehow, or combat
>resolution could take forever....
>

What I generally do is solicit half a Turn's worth of actions from the
players, run the Phases accordingly, then send the players a "rough
draft" of the results and give them 24 hours real-time to let me know if
there are questions, changes, etc., before putting the final results out
to the players and lurkers. Aside from giving the players every chance
to react to changes in the situation, this even gives them some time to
throw in appropriate dialogue, character thoughts, etc.

David

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 22:04:12 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
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Guy Hoyle wrote:
>

>
> A good test of a valid EC might be asking, "What powers does it EXCLUDE?"

An excellent point. In fact, if I think that a proposed EC is overly
broad, I often ask *exactly* that question.

As for Darren Phoenix's not allowing Force Field or Running in the cold
EC, this strikes me as odd for several reasons. First, both are in the
HSR example on p. 113. Second, both correspond to powers of the
prototype Marvel character, and in the published character, both powers
originated as clever applications of his fundamental power to create
significant (and unrealistic) amounts of Ice out of ambient moisture.
Iceman started by freezing a shield and built up to "Ice Armor" as a
standard configuration -- sounds like a Force Field to me. He also
devised running by freezing the water under his feet and skating on it.
Sounds like running to me.

As far as treating an EC as a single power for adjustment purposes: IMHO
this can be argued for negative adjustments (Drain, Suppress and the
"from" of a Transfer) but not for positive adjustments (Aid, Absorption
and the "to" of a Transfer). My reasoning is as follows, using the
example from p.113:

25 EC Pool of Ice Powers [50 active min]
25e 5D6 Entangle [50 active]
25e 20" Running 1/2 END [50 active]
27e 20PD/15ED FF 0 END [52 active]
35e 8D6 EB AP [60 active]
12e 12PD/8ED Force Wall 4ch [50 active]

I think that these slots are close enough to the same size for most GMs.
Half of the active points in each slot are contributed by the pool. Were
the pool to vanish entirely, but all other modifiers and real
expenditures to remain the same, we would have a valid, but smaller set
of powers.

0 EC Pool
25 2.5D6 Entangle [25 active]
25 10" Running 1/2 END [25 active]
27 10PD/8ED FF 0 END [27 active]
35 4.5D6 EB AP [35 active]
12 6PD/4ED Force Wall 4ch [25 active]

Now, consider boosting the original pool by a mere 5 points, but leaving
all other modifiers and real expenditures alone. Most slots are no
longer legal in the EC, because they are not large enough.

30 EC Pool [60 active minimum]
25 2.5D6 Entangle [25 active] not legal for EC
25 10" Running 1/2 END [25 active] not legal for EC
27 10PD/8ED FF 0 END [27 active] not legal for EC
35e 8D6+1 EB AP [65 active] <===only slot in EC now
12 6PD/4ED Force Wall 4ch [25 active] not legal for EC.

Reducing the EC pool reduces all the slots in a direct and obvious way,
but boosting the EC pool would only render the EC no longer valid. As
such, I might allow draining an EC pool, but would never allow boosting
one with a single adjustment power. I would regard an "Aid to my EC" as
abusive in any case unless purchased as +2.

BTW, I no longer use the +2 rule for adjustment powers. Instead:

+1/4 to affect any one power of a reasonable set. This need not
be taken if the set contains exactly as many powers as
can be affected simultaneously. If may be taken multiple
times if the intended set is overly broad.
+1/4 to affect two powers of the above set simultaneously, but
requiring a separate action for each power. This may be
taken multiple times, affecting one additional power for
each time it is taken.
+1/2 to affect two powers of the set simultaneously with a single
action. This may be taken multiple times as above.

Example: Psyche has a mental EC with four powers. She wants to be able
to boost any power in her EC or her EGO, and to boost two at once, but is
willing to take two actions to do so:

30 6D6 Aid Affects Mental or EGO(+1/4) 2 powers(+1/4) [45 active]
Self Only (-1/2)

Example: Hour Man has a pill that can Aid all 14 primary and secondary
characteristics simultaneously and that lasts for one hour. He cannot do
this more than once per day: his body won't take the strain.

62 6D6 Aid Affects all CHAR w/ one action(+7) Fade/hour(+3/4) [232]
One Charge(-2) Fade at once(-1) IAF(-1/2) Gestures(-1/4)

"Fade at once" means that the Aid vanishes as soon as the first fade
occurs: thus the power lasts one hour exactly. Note that I did not
charge the +1/4 for a set of powers, since each power in the set is paid
for with a +1/2.

--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest


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Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 22:34:25 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls
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bobby farris wrote:
>
>
> My next question is a little harder. Under what circumstances would you
> allow a person to buy stats in an EC?

PD and ED are just non-resistant versions of Force Field or Armor, and
most ECs have an excuse for one or the other.

PRE fits several ECs that I can think of: especially "Limited to
reactions of fear". Good for villains, especially Vampires and such.

If someone actually wants to buy huge amounts of COM, and it fits, why
not?

If the EC shares a strong limitation (Only under a Full Moon), then any
characteristics that share the limitation are reasonable candidates, but
not shoo-ins. A werewolf EC (only under a full moon -2) could
well include some STR, SPD, END, BODY and STUN, but other GMs might not
feel so generous.

Most other characteristics, I would look askance at for the simple reason
that characters are *supposed to be* described by their characteristics,
so there is no need to include them in an EC.

Suggestion: if you want to disallow figured characteristics on primary
CHAR bought in an EC, simply allow an Aid to the characteristic instead.
This achieves the desired result without recourse to a house rule.

--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest


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From: Harold.Groot@october.com (Harold Groot)
Date: 04 Mar 98 00:25:02 -0800
Subject: GMing tips :Accessori
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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While rolling the dice and making computations is the traditional way,
I played in an AD&D game at DunDraCon where the DM had pre-rolled
a whole mess of attacks for his main characters, listing the AC that
they hit. He just crossed them off one by one during the game.
It made things go somewhat faster.

Since "combat takes too long" is one of the primary complaints
about Champions, this system could easily be adapted to the game
to see if it speeds things up. Sure, there will still be adjustments
that have to be made on-the-fly (such as range modifiers), but it
seems to be worth a try. For successful attacks, lists of damages
could also be prerolled for various die values. Write a simple
program to generate 25 values each for 2d6, 3d6, 4d6 and so on,
use a new sheet each game and just cross them off as you use them.
Make separate columns for normal and killing attacks.
If you know (as GM) that one of your villians has something odd
like 3 1/2 d6, you can make up a separate column just for that.

So instead of

OK, Cobra attacks Sandman. <Grabs 3 dice, rolls>. Ok, thats
6 + 2 + 1 = 9, my OCV is 7, your DCV is 6, that's a hit.
Let's see, 6d6 <grabbing more dice and rolling> - OK, that's
2 + 5 is 7, plus 3 is 10, plus 4 is 16 (NO - FOURTEEN yells the target)
right 14, plus 1 is 15, - where's that last die?
It rolled off the table? OK, I reroll - a 6! That makes 21 stun and
1 2 3 4 4 6 that's 6 body.

It becomes

OK, Cobra attacks Sandman. I hit DCV 9 (player says: "A hit"
while GM crosses line off list of attacks for Cobra).
DM looks at 6d6 table and says "You take 6 body and 21 stun"
and crosses off the entry under the 6d6 Normal column.


... AD&D Mistake #70: Taking sleep-therapy classes from a vampire
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]

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X-Sender: voxel@mail.theramp.net
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 03:51:56 -0600
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: Classic Comic Cliches...
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 07:27 AM 3/4/98 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:
> Really? At first I thought you were talking about Onslaught/Heroes
>Reborn that Marvel is just wrapping up right now. :)
> Which just goes to show how much of a cliche it is...

Don't forget the IMPACT! Comics "Crucible" series which wrapped up its run. :]

--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
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Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 03:59:18 -0600
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: Other Great Presence Attacks
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At 02:19 PM 3/4/98 -0500, BILL SVITAVSKY wrote:
>Superman, especially in the 50's TV series, generally lets
>bullets bounce off his chest for a Phase or two - I'd call
>that a Presence Attack. Supes has got almost as high a PRE
>as Batman, and with his reputation and a multitude of powers
>to demonstrate, he can easily convince his minor antagonists
>to surrender without much of a fight.

Ah, but you forget the clincher: after bouncing the bullets, he has to grab
their guns and smash them (adding a violent action to the power display :]).

Which reminds of another truly cool PRE attack: when Chun disarms Remo
Williams (in the movie of the same name) and then proceeds to unload the gun
bullet by bullet in front of him; Remo uses the same trick on The Bad Guy at
the end of the film.

--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html

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Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 02:39:46 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Organization: Satan's Children
Subject: Re: Blue Booking
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David Stallard wrote:

> How does bluebooking save time from going into another room? The GM still
> has to stop what he's doing and write a note to a player. It can save time
> in that the player can write his note while the GM continues, but there
> will be pauses in the game while the GM replies. My past experience with
> bluebooking has been that the rest of the group is sitting around bored
> while the GM conducts bluebook actions with a certain player. Everyone on
> this list so far has been gung ho for bluebooking, but I would advise
> against it. You can talk a lot faster than you can write, so just take the
> player in another room and minimize the agony for the other players.

Well, at any time there is a lull in the GM-required action, such as
when the PCs are talking amongst themselves, The GM may then jot off a
note to a specific player regarding something either from earlier, or
yet to come. Also, if a player has questions and/or clarifications to
ask, I can write responses or explainations either during any naturally
occurring pause in the action, or even at the same time as I am dealing
with others. Sure, a long, involved conversation should best be done in
person in private, but if a private GM-PC exchange is NOT a focus of the
game at a particular time, then bluebooking - or at least 'passing
notes' - can save a lot of time. I guess the gist is that BBing is at
least useful for stuff that is going on that is NOT in the focus of the
action.

--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah


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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 06:45:04 -0500 (EST)
From: David Majors <asmodeus@shell.ezy.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Speedsters
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On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, bobby farris wrote:

> What are good stats for speedsters? How can you buy a high dexterity
> and high speed without putting a major majority of points into these two
> slots.
> If you buy a 27 dex you have spent 51points, and if you buy an
> accompaning speed of 7 you have now spent 33 points. So you have spent a
> total of 84 points, 1/3 your character for just two effects. Is this
> right? I get the intuitive feel that it is, but I want other comments.
>

Actually, I go for a bit more speed and dex on speedsters. But, yes it is
a bunch of points. The main power of these guys is the speed. It is hard
to create a character at 250 points like this. I just recently finished a
villian and had to have 50 pts extra just to round him out.

He has speed 10, dex 38 and other characteristics totalling out to 187
pts. That didn't leave much for powers, but then again most bricks are
high characteristic point totals, also.

Also, remember the recovery or lower your endurance on your powers and
reduce your endurance on strength. You will be glad you did.

David Majors - Kaliedescope

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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:43:28 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Bubble-Boy
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On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:

> You are paying points for not having to actively maitain this
> power from phase to phase. Yes, it no longer requires your control.
> However, the text says absolutely nothing about disallowing control. I
> see no reason why a character couldn't turn this off at will.
>
> Heck, it would tend to fit certain SFX. Think of an "Enternal
> Hellfire" type of thing that will burn an opponent without any need to
> maintain. However, quite logically, our demonic attacker can say,
> "Enough" at any time.

That's what Continuous is for.

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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:47:18 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
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On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Lizard wrote:

> Seriously, the reason we have game mechanics, as opposed to 'lets pretend',
> is to quantify and settle disputes. Going back to the original example,
> what happens when the PC says, "I try not to hate her" or "I have 20 points
> of Mental Defense -- did you remember that?" Does it become entirely your
> judgement? Having a mechanic to model how strong the effect is vs.
> resistance is useful.

If you like, you can stick "(treat as an XD6 Mind Control)" in the
description of the Disadvantage. The important point remains that it
is a Disadvantage and should be bought as one, not a Power.

> Can you imagine telling a PC:"The villain just shot an energy bolt at you.
> You fall over and are unconscious." without rolling to-hit, damage,
> deducting armor, etc?

Certainly I can. Is there something wrong with that technique?

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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Presence Attacks
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 04:50:44 -0800
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Prodipto Roy [proy@MICROSOFT.com] says:
>I've only seen a soliloquy bonus once in the last 10 years or so that
>I've played.

The best PRE attack I saw in one of my games was when a somewhat insane
PC with little in the way of attacks or defenses leapt into a combat and
started quoting Shakespeare. When he finished, I (the player) stood up
and clapped and said, "Excellent Soliloquy! +3d6!" Whereupon the GM
retaliated, "But entirely inappropriate. -2d6."

Dave Mattingly

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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:51:10 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
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On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, John P Weatherman wrote:

> >4. Adjustment powers work vs the EC and all its slots, after all, it's the
> >same power.
>
> I know that the adjustment powers hit everything is commonly accepted.

Although IMODO, that fairly clearly isn't enough on its own to justify
EC's point break.

> However, an EC saves, in and of itself no more than half the cost of a
> power. Thats a -1 limitation. So why does it give every adjuster out
> there a +2 advantage: effects all powers of a SPX for free? Just seems to
> be a little bit of an over reaction to the cost break...

How so? If your reasoning is just "2 is greater than 1", that seems like
a rather severe non sequitur; I can't think of any reason to compare the
two numbers you're looking at.

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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:53:33 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Resisting Teleport
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On 28 Feb 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> DA> I seem to remember reading that you could use Teleport to resist being
> DA> teleported by another person, with whoever had the most inches winning.
>
> Considering that Teleportation is not used as an attack, one cannot use it
> against someone else without their consent. Movement powers with the UBO
> advantage may be used as attacks, but UBO requires that you specify a
> reasonably common defense against the power.

You mean UAO.

> I would probably not consider "having more inches of Teleportation than I"
> to be a reasonably common defense.

It could be part of a set of defenses, though.

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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:57:07 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
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On 27 Feb 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> How does Distinctive Features affect other characters? How does "Physical
> Limitation: crippled" affect some people?
>
> I picked out Physical Limitation for a couple of reasons. Most
> importantly, Physical Limitations are disadvantages that characters cannot
> overcome by directed effort.

That's the rule for distinguishing Physical Limitations from Psychological
Limitations; it's hardly the distinguishing feature of Phys Lim in
general. There are several Disadvantages which fit that description,
Distinctive Features among them.

> There is nothing that a character with "Phys.: Hated by women" can do about
> it. They do, and let them invent their own reasons for it.

There's nothing a member of a visible minority in a discriminatory society
can do about that, either, but that's still better bought as a Distinctive
Features than a Phys Lim.

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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:58:56 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Bubble-Boy
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On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:

> > Since he can dispel them at will, Uncontrolled would either be
> > inappropriate, or he would have to have a powerful Dispel, as well.
>
> There's nothing wrong with him being able to turn off his own
> Uncontrolled powers. Just make that one of the "set of conditions" that
> will stop the uncontrolled power.

Technically legal, but the inability to turn off the Power is one of the
things which balances Uncontrolled against, say, Persistent. One shouldn't
be able to circumvent that at 0 cost.

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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:01:51 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Aid in a Multipower
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On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:

> > > Errata and new rules in new releases. This has been stressed as a
> > >balance measure.
> >
> > I'm not asking about subsequently released books, a notorious source of inconsistant
> > rule ideas
>
> No matter your feeling on them, they have moved into the realm of
> official.

Only you seem to think so.

> Especially with 5th edition likely to incorporate much of the add-ons.

If it does, _then_ they'll be official. I don't expect to see many of the
add-ons show up, though.

> > - I'm asking about the core rules. I've seen no offical errata which
> > mentions anything about the lingering effects of an Aid vanishing when a
> > MP is shifted. Where can I find said errata?
>
> I thought it was mentioned in the FAQ, but I'm not sure. For any
> campaign utilizing the extended MA rules (NH or UMA) it is quite official.

Because a campaign uses a certain published house rule, that implies that
it should also use another totally-unrelated rule because they were
published in the same book? Hardly.

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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:06:31 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
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On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, Lizard wrote:

> >Yeah, like Superman. There's a unified concept character if I ever saw one
> >^_^ Super Speed, Super Strength, Flight, X-Ray Vision, Heat Vision,
> >Invulnerability. All those lovely unified powers, bless Krypton. ^_^
>
> EC:"Super" Powers. In the DC universe, esp. during the 50s and early 60s,
> that 'suite' of powers almost always came as a bundle. Not just
> Kryptonians, either:Star Boy got them from flying through a comet, Ultra
> Boy from being eaten by a space whale, there was a pool of radioactive
> liquid that granted them temporarily, Pa Kent got them from being exposed
> to alien spores...and there were dozens of others, usually temporary, that
> got the same 'set'.

I'm not sure if the vision powers necessarily came in the suite, though.
(As I recall, Ultra Boy and Star Boy both got some sort of eye-beams, but
it wasn't "heat vision". I may be thinking of the post-Crisis versions,
though.)

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Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 07:08:06 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Classic Comic Cliches...
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At 01:38 PM 3/3/98 -0800, Lizard wrote:
>While speculating about what our Evil GM might have in store for us, I came
>up with a list of classic comic-book cliches, esp. team comic book cliches.
>Any more?
>======
>a)We meet a Cosmic Entity Of Unlimited Power
>b)We all lose our powers and have to beat the bad guy with just our guile
>and wits. (We're dead.)
>c)We enter a parallel dimension
>d)Someone's parent/child/sibling shows up and is a villain
>e)Someone dies. "The passing...of a HERO!"
>f)Someone quits. "Watchtower...no more!"
>g)We meet aliens.
>h)We meed a Golden Age hero.
>i)One of us is granted near-godlike powers and for no readily discernible
>reason turns on the rest of us. ("My ally...my enemy!")
>j)We all sit around the campfire and do flashbacks to our origins.
>k)We meet another team of heroes and attack them, again for no readily
>discernible reason.

* A hero's origin story is not only retold, but revised/updated/is found to
be connected to events perviously thought unrelated.
* A hero moves in a Whole New Direction! (gets a new costume)
* A hero undergoes a dramatic metamorphosis, alterting his powers for as
long as the company can milk that storyline.
* Imaginary stories that feature the regular character(s) but are not part
of the established continuity. (Remember the Batman, Jr./Superman, Jr.
stories in the '70s?)
* We experience a Cosmic Event that will alter the comic universe forever.
Heroes will die, villains become heroes, new characters (or existing
characters from parallel dimensions) will become part of established
continuity. Six months later, no one in the restructured universe will
remember anything happened. Despite that, some hero will occasionally
refer to the event. Most of this will never be properly sorted out, and
the company will eventually give up and have another Cosmic Event, possibly
involving time as well as space, allowing for more retconning than ever
before. (Can you tell I wasn't happy with the aftermath of Crisis On
Infinite Earths/Zero Hour?)

Damon

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Subject: Re: Blue Booking
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:08:49 -0500
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I have never read Strike Force, and all of the blue-booking that I do in
my campaigns has been of the "Character needs/wants to do X, but since it
doesn't involve the rest of the group, we will just blue-book it". I give
them a short intro and give them a day or two to get back to me with
their actions. I then go over it and give it back to them in a day or
two, with the next step added in. It lets players on a team conduct solo
adventures, personal lives, etc. and lets me drop in plot hooks and
foreshadowing when appropriate for only one or two persons.

I am reminded of the time that I decided it was time for the Grey Ghost
(a big hitter IMC, around 800 pts, insane, very powerful) to excape from
his asylum. He used a long, slow transform to mold another prisoner into
his likeness, and a mind control to make him believe he was the real Grey
Ghost. The ghost then just walked (desold) out and began his criminal
life anew. The PC's found out about this in several ways:
Stalwart was blue-booking his testimony at the trial of another
insane supervillian, and I was able to drop in some foreshadowing of GG's
moves by mentioning the asylum and some strange movements that occured,
people missing and found in other rooms, etc.
Another PC (who was fairly new) liked to patrol the city, and I was
able to have him encounter GG's tell-tale grey fog several times without
tripping off the alarms in everyone else's heads. He never told them
himself, and GG was able to elude him, and remain free longer.
A third PC loved to investigate and conduct his personal life. His
younger brother (not a DNPC, but a good plothook nonetheless) was
constantly getting in trouble, so I had his gang get hooked up with GG
and the kid disapppear, leading to Revenant looking for his brother (the
player loved for bad stuff to happen to Revenant, a real Tragicist)

All this happened "offline", mostly through email with summaries typed up
later (by me) and given out at the game sessinons. Since we only meet
once every two-weeks, it lets the game continue even when we cannot get
together.

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 05:16:26 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Airplane: 2001 - The Millenium
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At 09:36 PM 3/3/1998 -0600, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
>> My problem is similar. Everything I touch becomes humorous. I could
>>start with something like Millenium and within six months of play make it
>>look like it was produced by Mel Brooks and directed by the Zucker brothers.
>
>"The killer doesn't see himself as others do. In his mind, he's a healer,
>an angel of mercy. He -- Peter, we have to get to the hospital right away."
>
>"The hospital? Frank, what is it?"
>
>"It's a big building with patients. But that's not important right now."
>
>Hee, hee! I wanna play in Bob's campaign.

"Surely you must be joking."
"I'm not joking, and don't call me Shirley."
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 05:17:34 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Pre Attacks
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At 10:36 PM 3/3/1998 -0600, Sakura wrote:
>Definitely a movie & book for some great soliloquies though.
>
>"I am the Dread Pirate Roberts, and I'm coming for your SOULS!"

Aw heck, you want good PRE Attack material from the Princess Bride?

(1) Admittedly paraphrasing:

"Give us the gate key."
"I don't have any gate key."
"Fezzik, rip off his arms."
"Oh, you mean THIS gate key!"

(2) Or my favorite movie PRE Attack ever:

"Drop... your... sword."
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 05:18:39 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Pre Attacks
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At 10:41 PM 3/3/1998 -0600, Sakura wrote:
>On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>
><Princess Bride PRE attacks snipped>
>
>And oh yes, don't forget a certain Spaniard, who despite being in an
>inferior position in combat (-2d6) managed to pull off a remarkably
>successful PRE attack on Count Rugen, with the help of an excellent
>soliloquy (It had better be - he'd been practicing it for years! +2d6) and
>surprise ("You're still trying to kill me? You have an overdeveloped sense
>of vengeance." +1d6). I'm not sure if Rugen was aware of Inigo's
>reputation, but he was certainly aware of his skill...

Especially since (in the movie) he'd just dispatched four or five of
Rugen's swordsmen, one of them without even looking (watch closely).
Definitely an Exhibition of Power (+1d6), and arguably an Incredibly
Violent Action (+3d6). Small wonder Rugen ran away.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 05:18:50 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Speedsters
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At 10:09 PM 3/3/1998 -0600, bobby farris wrote:
>What are good stats for speedsters? How can you buy a high dexterity
>and high speed without putting a major majority of points into these two
>slots.
> If you buy a 27 dex you have spent 51points, and if you buy an
>accompaning speed of 7 you have now spent 33 points. So you have spent a
>total of 84 points, 1/3 your character for just two effects. Is this
>right? I get the intuitive feel that it is, but I want other comments.

Your math is correct, though the stats are arguably still a tad higher
than the necessarily need to be. A beginning speedster could probably
still get away with 25 DEX 6 SPD, or even lower if extra-fast reflexes
aren't necessarily a part of the *specific* concept. (At least you're not
trying to get 33 DEX 10 SPD; that should come only with experience.)
Remember, not all speedsters (by archetype) have reflexes that
noticeably surpass those of other supers. Yes, the Flash and the
characters associated with him all do, as did the Golden Age's Johnny
Quick. Quicksilver, however, is probably the top speedster in the Marvel
Universe, but his DEX and SPD are probably not much higher than Captain
America's.
So high DEX and SPD is a *possible* ability of a speedster, but isn't
absolutely necessary to represent it.
---
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Subject: RE: Presence Attacks
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:38:11 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
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On 3/3/98 3:50 PM Michael Sprague (msprague@eznet.net) Said:

>Last, out of curiosity, how would you GM the following, which happened to
>me several years ago. I am still undecided ... was it a creative use of
>Presence attack, or was the GM correct in what he did?
>
>My character, upon entering battle, attacked with a fairly impressive
>ranged attack, but missed. He did a lot of damage to the ground very near
>the targets. Trying to make the best out of it, I decided to try a
>Presence attack, and warned the villains that I had just fired a warning
>shot. If they didn't surrender, the next shot would be dead on.
>
>The GM just laughed at me, and said "Sure, you can make a Presence attack
>... at -2d6. The villains are laughing at you!" Now, he did that based on
>the knowledge that I had tried to hit the villains and missed, vs. from
>their perspective where I had just done a lot of damage to the ground next
>to them. Needless to say, it was a serious failure. I think that maybe
>they should have had to make a PRE or INT roll to know that I had actually
>tried to hit them and missed.

It would seem that your GM used his knowledge of the situation, instead
of theirs (New Power: GM Mind Link). This should have been a very
effective PRE attack; it is certainly in genre.

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

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X-Sender: Cypriot@pop3.concentric.net
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 08:58:56 -0500
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Pre Attacks
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>>* Luke Skywalker in Muppets in Space III:
>> "Surrender now, Jabba, and I'll let you live."
>> (While bound and walking the plank)
>
>Arr, lad, if you're going to quote, get it right, it was (IIRC, smack me if
>I'm wrong):
>
>"Last chance, Jabba. Free us, or die."
>

Somehow, I just *knew* somebody in this group would correct me on
that one. :)


====================== =================================================
Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
====================== =================================================

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X-Sender: Cypriot@pop3.concentric.net
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 08:58:59 -0500
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Pre Attacks
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At 11:05 PM 3/3/98 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> And oh yes, don't forget a certain Spaniard, who despite being in an
>> inferior position in combat (-2d6) managed to pull off a remarkably
>> successful PRE attack on Count Rugen, with the help of an excellent
>> soliloquy (It had better be - he'd been practicing it for years! +2d6) and
>> surprise ("You're still trying to kill me? You have an overdeveloped sense
>> of vengeance." +1d6). I'm not sure if Rugen was aware of Inigo's
>> reputation, but he was certainly aware of his skill...
>
> Oh, quite. He had killed those four guards with remarkable ease.
>Rugen was a bit shaken, but not running at this point. He tried to fight,
>remember. Key word tried.
>

Almost argues for a modification to the Presence Attack rules to
allow an OCV minus for nervousness due to the Presence Attack.


====================== =================================================
Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
====================== =================================================

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:12:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Pre Attacks
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On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:

> At 10:41 PM 3/3/1998 -0600, Sakura wrote:

> >And oh yes, don't forget a certain Spaniard, who despite being in an
> >inferior position in combat (-2d6) managed to pull off a remarkably
> >successful PRE attack on Count Rugen, with the help of an excellent
> >soliloquy (It had better be - he'd been practicing it for years! +2d6) and
> >surprise ("You're still trying to kill me? You have an overdeveloped sense
> >of vengeance." +1d6). I'm not sure if Rugen was aware of Inigo's
> >reputation, but he was certainly aware of his skill...
>
> Especially since (in the movie) he'd just dispatched four or five of
> Rugen's swordsmen, one of them without even looking (watch closely).
> Definitely an Exhibition of Power (+1d6), and arguably an Incredibly
> Violent Action (+3d6). Small wonder Rugen ran away.

A few comments:

1 - When Rugen first fought Inigo (when Inigo was.. 9?), Inigo's skill
with the sword was quite evident. Rugen was supposed to have a momentary
flash of fear/surprise at Inigo's first attack.

2 - I always got the feeling that the movie Rugen was a bit of a coward.
Oh, he was wonderful cruel when acting from a position of strength, but
watching Inigo cut down four armed (and armored) men in a matter of
seconds sure blew his day.

3 - Inigo takes out the last soldier with a thrust to the chest while
looking down the hall at Rugen. Pretty nice trick, since Inigo never
really look to see where anyone is falling.

Finally, here are the PRE values for the assorted PB characters, taken
from the write-ups I posted to the list a while back:

Fezzik: 15
Humperdink: 20
Inigo: 15
Wesley: 20
Rugen: 18
Vezzini: 10

Note: this numbers were drawn more from the book descriptions of the
characters than the movie.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks (Colosus)
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 06:27:10 -0800 (PST)
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> > with some Elemental Controls,one obvious - to me - elemental control in
> > comics would be Marvel's Colossus
>
> Possibly, but without the stats.
>
> > I'd see him as having an elemental control
> > Organic Steel Body - all only in hero ID
> > Armour
> > Increased Strength, Increased Endurance, Increased body, Endurance etc
> > more armour versus heat/cold, electricity and radiation
>
I'd just give him two powers myself:

X lvls density increase
resistant defense

Then buy up his stun, PD, and ED to needed values.

He's probably only a 250 pointer or less even.

Is the LS documented? I think it is... If so, it's an easy add in.

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X-Authentication-Warning: snowy.owlnet.rice.edu: chip owned process doing -bs
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:34:20 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Reply-To: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
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On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Robert A. West wrote:

> As for Darren Phoenix's not allowing Force Field or Running in the cold
> EC, this strikes me as odd for several reasons. First, both are in the
> HSR example on p. 113. Second, both correspond to powers of the
> prototype Marvel character, and in the published character, both powers
> originated as clever applications of his fundamental power to create
> significant (and unrealistic) amounts of Ice out of ambient moisture.
> Iceman started by freezing a shield and built up to "Ice Armor" as a
> standard configuration -- sounds like a Force Field to me. He also
> devised running by freezing the water under his feet and skating on it.
> Sounds like running to me.

Ah, I should have mentioned that I have a hard time with how Marvel's
"Iceman" works too. Even if I did think that skating on ice counted as
(flight), it wouldn't be the godly amount that plopping a movement power
into an EC gives you. Ice Armor is a similar situation, you'd need plenty
of ice and then how would you move? Perhaps Iceman is converting himself
into ice. Furthermore, I'll say it again, I think the BBB examples are
awful. Look at their fire EC. Flight (leaves a flaming trail). I'm sorry?
But if it were flight (superheats ambient air and rides the updraft) I
could allow a (small) amount of flight inside the EC. (I do agree that
there should be a mechanism for putting small powers into an EC).

You'll notice that there are some unrealistic things I readily accept, and
some I don't. Everybody draws the line between "cool!" and "yeah,
right..." somewhere. I don't presume that the place I draw it is the right
way. Depending on where you draw the line, you'll get different kinds of
ECs and different "comic book physics." I'm the type that prefers more
pseudo-science, rather than less--I find it helps define the interaction
between special effects more readily.

> BTW, I no longer use the +2 rule for adjustment powers. Instead:
>
> +1/4 to affect any one power of a reasonable set. This need not
> be taken if the set contains exactly as many powers as
> can be affected simultaneously. If may be taken multiple
> times if the intended set is overly broad.
> +1/4 to affect two powers of the above set simultaneously, but
> requiring a separate action for each power. This may be
> taken multiple times, affecting one additional power for
> each time it is taken.
> +1/2 to affect two powers of the set simultaneously with a single
> action. This may be taken multiple times as above.

This is a reasonable approach. I'm not sure what "power" refers to,
though. Is it a HERO power, or a character power?

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Cruel interpretation of Teleport
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 06:39:27 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> In reading over the teleport rules, i.e.
> "The character can teleport to any spot he can
> see as long as it's within his range."
>
> This example is true. Only the names have changed to
> protect the innocent. Let's say that Dark Dog has a 30"
> Teleport. And just to make things interesting, he also
> has a x4 multiplier. He can teleport 120" per phase.
>
> But with a 23 INT, he has a Perception roll of 14-.
> Which means that he can teleport 120" IF HE CAN SEE
> the point at the other end, for which he is at a -8.
>
I believe that perception modifier applies to picking
out details at that distance. Or should. After all, if you can't
see at all what's 240 meters (720-ish feet) away you've got a major
vision problem.
Given that, I'd never make a player make a perception roll
on a movement power, unless they were trying to
get very specific. Such as wanting to land on the skateboard 240
meters away and not beside it in the same "Hex".

> Why am I being so cruel on this matter? (1) Because it's
> difficult to design a situation for which the character is
> forced to push the limits of his teleport, and (2) I like
> to fuck with this particular player.
>
> Here's my question: Is this an unreasonable perversion of
> the rules?

I would say yes. Also anytime a GM finds themselves in
situation number (2) above they need to re-examine why they're GMing
and either quit, remove the player, or work out whatever personal
problem is trying to make it's way into the game.
Testing a character on something as predictable as a movement power
is often not a good idea. If you really need to, find a situation were he
needs to hit a certain part of a hex (thus validating the perception roll),
rather than effectivly adding a new lim onto the power for no bonus. You're
better off challenging your PC's in other ways however. Of course, if the PC
has all sorts of lims on their movement power, then exploit those; but don't
ever make a character you have accepted into your game unplayable. Deal with
a problem player or character out of game.

Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Pre Attacks
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 06:56:12 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> > Forgive the tangent, but how about votes for the best
> > "Psych Lim: Overconfidence" scene in the movies?
> >

Akira movie, near the end.

Tetsuo is having a beyonder-manifestation and his non-psionic
buddy Kaneda goes after him with a laser rifle. That took either
major guts or a serious failure to grasp the situation. :)

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:03:13 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Module in 3rd edition GM's screen (Island of Dr. Destroyer)
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---Bob Greenwade wrote:
> Either you had a much earlier copy than I did, or you are indeed
getting
> the two of them confused. My 4th Edition GM's Screen did come with
some
> stuff, but it was just a quick reference for the rules, some extra
> character sheets and other helpful control sheets (like vehicle, base,
> combat, and such), plus some cheap Cardboard Heroes and a two-sided
hex map.

That list-o-stuff is sounding more and mroe familiar - I may be
getting the two screens jumbled.
_________________________________________________________
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:13:04 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Pre Attacks
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On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Brian Wong wrote:

> > > Forgive the tangent, but how about votes for the best
> > > "Psych Lim: Overconfidence" scene in the movies?
>
> Akira movie, near the end.
>
> Tetsuo is having a beyonder-manifestation and his non-psionic
> buddy Kaneda goes after him with a laser rifle. That took either
> major guts or a serious failure to grasp the situation. :)

Both, I'd say. Kaneda still thought of Tetsuo of the young punk kid he
hung around with, not a major psychokinetic force of nature. And Kaneda
was pretty pissed right about then.

Hmm... I'm trying to think of some similar scenes of amazing bouts of
Overconfidence...

Clint Eastwood walking into the bar armed a shotgun and pistol at the end
of The Unforgiven? That took some major cojones, especially since the
shotgun misfired onthe second shell.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:17:20 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Speedsters
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---bobby farris wrote:
>
> What are good stats for speedsters? How can you buy a high dexterity
> and high speed without putting a major majority of points into these
two
> slots.
> If you buy a 27 dex you have spent 51points, and if you buy an
> accompaning speed of 7 you have now spent 33 points. So you have
spent a
> total of 84 points, 1/3 your character for just two effects. Is this
> right? I get the intuitive feel that it is, but I want other comments.

The Speedster is an expensive concept, but when building it ask
yourself something - is a high dex really in your concept? If not,
don't buy it. SPD is cheaper to buy when you just pay for the SPD (10
per 1) than when you pay for by DEX (30 per 1).

Also, think of high speed as being a special effect as opposed to a
power in and of itself and build powers to emulate the effects of
being "faster than fast".
_________________________________________________________
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Classic Comic Cliches...
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:27:35 -0800 (PST)
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> * We experience a Cosmic Event that will alter the comic universe forever.
> Heroes will die, villains become heroes, new characters (or existing
> characters from parallel dimensions) will become part of established
> continuity. Six months later, no one in the restructured universe will
> remember anything happened. Despite that, some hero will occasionally
> refer to the event. Most of this will never be properly sorted out, and
> the company will eventually give up and have another Cosmic Event, possibly
> involving time as well as space, allowing for more retconning than ever
> before. (Can you tell I wasn't happy with the aftermath of Crisis On
> Infinite Earths/Zero Hour?)

Really? At first I thought you were talking about Onslaught/Heroes
Reborn that Marvel is just wrapping up right now. :)
Which just goes to show how much of a cliche it is...

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Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 07:28:19 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Pre Attacks
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At 09:12 AM 3/4/1998 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>> Especially since (in the movie) he'd just dispatched four or five of
>> Rugen's swordsmen, one of them without even looking (watch closely).
[bits snipped]
>3 - Inigo takes out the last soldier with a thrust to the chest while
>looking down the hall at Rugen. Pretty nice trick, since Inigo never
>really look to see where anyone is falling.

Actually the one I was referring to was coming up behind him. Inigo was
hardly even paying attention; he just thrust backwards with his sword, and
got the guy in the belly, felling him instantly.
Now, *that* takes Skill Levels! :-]
(It's also something I've seen here and there in action TV shows and a
few other sources. I love it when Batman does it, on the animated series.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:37:33 -0500 (EST)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Pre Attacks
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>>Arr, lad, if you're going to quote, get it right, it was (IIRC, smack me if
>>I'm wrong):
>>"Last chance, Jabba. Free us, or die."
>
>Somehow, I just *knew* somebody in this group would correct me on
>that one. :)

Well, duh :-). Good example of a bad PRE attack. Luke did NOT have a lot of
PRE - less than Han Solo, I'll bet (probably some more EGO after Jedi
training, though). Let's look at Luke's modifiers:

-1D6 for inappropriate setting (while walking a plank)
-1D6 for being at a disadvantage (skillion to one odds)
-1D6 for weak reputation ("He is no Jedi.")
-2D6 for running against existing moods (everyone was rooting for their deaths)

No wonder everybody laughed at Luke. At least until he started waving around
the lightsaber...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:53:56 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Speedsters
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Stainless Steel Rat
>Instead, buy powers and combat skill levels that simulate the effects of a
speedster. For instance, instead of an 8 Speed, buy a 4 and dump some of
those points into 3-point combat skill levels with Sweep, Move By, and Move
Through maneuvers, and up your Running to a useful level. 21 points is +7
OCV with those three maneuvers, and you have 19 points left to spend on
other things, like buying a few slots in a Multipower full of "stupid
speedster tricks".<

This doesn't make sense to me. It sounds like you created a specialized
martial artist who can run fast, but his SPD is so low that actions will be
happening around him while he waits for his phase to come up...the opposite
of my conception of a speedster. I can't see having a speedster with a SPD
less than 6 (7 or 8 is better).

I'm real interested in hearing about these "stupid speedster tricks", or
"stupid tricks" for any of the character styles (Brick, etc). I like
characters to have a lot of options rather than just a few powerful
options.

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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:53:57 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Ultra Slots
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Most multipowers I've come across have had only ultra slots, because
players typically put "one at a time" powers such as attacks in the MP, and
"many at a time" powers such as movement and defense go in an EC or outside
of a framework. Is this very common for MPs to only have ultra slots? It
somewhat defeats the idea of a multipower, where you shift your "power"
around to different abilities as needed. Technically, this is what you are
doing, but by using only ultra slots, there is essentially no bad side to
counteract the cost break--with a normal MP, the bad side is that you can't
have all your powers at full power at the same time.

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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:02:49 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: "Stupid Tricks"
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Somebody mentioned that you could save some points with a Speedster and use
them to buy a multipower of "stupid Speedster tricks".

I'm real interested in hearing examples of "stupid tricks" for any of the
common character types (Brick, Mentalist, etc). I think these could really
help a character to stand out from the rest of the characters of that
type...this is especially true for Bricks, which have little variety as you
go from character to character.

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Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 09:03:36 -0700
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
Subject: Adjusting hit locations was:Re: Pre Attacks
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Mike Christodoulou wrote:
>
> At 11:05 PM 3/3/98 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> >
> >> And oh yes, don't forget a certain Spaniard, who despite being in an
> >> inferior position in combat (-2d6) managed to pull off a remarkably
> >> successful PRE attack on Count Rugen, with the help of an excellent
> >> soliloquy (It had better be - he'd been practicing it for years! +2d6) and
> >> surprise ("You're still trying to kill me? You have an overdeveloped sense
> >> of vengeance." +1d6). I'm not sure if Rugen was aware of Inigo's
> >> reputation, but he was certainly aware of his skill...
> >
> > Oh, quite. He had killed those four guards with remarkable ease.
> >Rugen was a bit shaken, but not running at this point. He tried to fight,
> >remember. Key word tried.
> >
>
> Almost argues for a modification to the Presence Attack rules to
> allow an OCV minus for nervousness due to the Presence Attack.

"Stop saying that!"

One bit in this fight that I have never figured out (elegantly) how to
model in HERO:
Ruegen attacks, and Inigo blocks, but instead of a clean block, or a
clean chest shot for Ruegen it gets his arm (first two thrusts after the
thrown dagger). I could see this as color for the stun mult/location
roll but....

In a heroic campaing using hit locations how would anyone model the
ability to block a head shot or a vitals shot to an arm or leg or
something. Any ideas?

--

Not only does the English Language borrow words from other languages,
it sometimes chases them down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and
goes through their pockets. -- Eddy Peters

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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:14:24 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Hero System Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Ultra Slots
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On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote:

> Most multipowers I've come across have had only ultra slots, because
> players typically put "one at a time" powers such as attacks in the MP, and
> "many at a time" powers such as movement and defense go in an EC or outside
> of a framework. Is this very common for MPs to only have ultra slots?

This really depends on the character and the power. A number of players
have used Multipowers to create such things as a martial arts multipower,
or a weapon mulitpower, or an energy blast multipower. Each slot is a
different type of attack, so each slot is a multi-power. Of my commonly
played characters, one has a Multi-power with all ultras, but then, he is
an Ultra-Boy clone. Of the others, one has an MP with all multi slots,
but I aslo bought up the base pool to allow me to shift the points around
more easily. (ie. I have a 75 point pool and several 60 point powers.
This allows me to keep certain powers (such as flight) running at a
minumum level while doing other things. The other character has a mix of
ultra and multislots and a 150 popint pool to help power things (with the
max power being only 120 points).

> It
> somewhat defeats the idea of a multipower, where you shift your "power"
> around to different abilities as needed. Technically, this is what you are
> doing, but by using only ultra slots, there is essentially no bad side to
> counteract the cost break--with a normal MP, the bad side is that you can't
> have all your powers at full power at the same time.

Yes, but with an ultra slot power, you can only have one power running at
one time. In an all attack MP, this is less of a problem, since (in our
game) you can only use one attack at a time anyway. In the Ultraboy clone
I play, however, I need to decide between STR, DEF, EB or Flight. And
this can be a problem. I abort often to the DEF (20/20 Armor), although
sometimes I'll risk getting creamed and stick with the STR or EB slot (I
have 10/10 non-resistant DEF) when the armor is not up.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:16:56 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Adjusting hit locations was:Re: Pre Attacks
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On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Curtis Gibson wrote:

> > Almost argues for a modification to the Presence Attack rules to
> > allow an OCV minus for nervousness due to the Presence Attack.

I like that effect. The PRE atttack rules for 5th should take into
account the stuff given in Horror Hero too.

> One bit in this fight that I have never figured out (elegantly) how to
> model in HERO:
> Ruegen attacks, and Inigo blocks, but instead of a clean block, or a
> clean chest shot for Ruegen it gets his arm (first two thrusts after the
> thrown dagger). I could see this as color for the stun mult/location
> roll but....
>
> In a heroic campaing using hit locations how would anyone model the
> ability to block a head shot or a vitals shot to an arm or leg or
> something. Any ideas?

I like that one too... Hmmm... how would one model that? Using your skill
levels to modify your attacker's hit location?

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

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Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 08:19:19 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Cruel interpretation of Teleport
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Mike Christodoulou wrote:
>
> In reading over the teleport rules, i.e.
> "The character can teleport to any spot he can
> see as long as it's within his range."
> I see a loophole on which a cruel and heartless GM can
> capitalize.
>
> This example is true. Only the names have changed to
> protect the innocent. Let's say that Dark Dog has a 30"
> Teleport. And just to make things interesting, he also
> has a x4 multiplier. He can teleport 120" per phase.

You mean, every *other* phase.

>
> But with a 23 INT, he has a Perception roll of 14-.
> Which means that he can teleport 120" IF HE CAN SEE
> the point at the other end, for which he is at a -8.

I would disagree. Failing a PER roll does not mean that you cannot
*see* a point in LOS at 240 meters. Remember that we are only talking
about two football fields or so -- if one has unobstructed LOS one can
see clearly at much larger ranges than that. A PER roll should represent
the ability to notice *unexpected* or *subtle* things at that range, not
the ability to see the thing *at all*.

When you are driving, if you have LOS, you should routinely look 1/2 mile
ahead (-9 Range Modifier) to assess conditions and get early warning of
trouble. Assuming that you are INT 20 (PER roll 13-), your reasoning
would have you spot cars (+2 PER Growth) at that range on a roll of 6-,
which is about 10% of the time. I hope that you do better than that.

I would require a PER roll to notice that a car is driving a little
erratically, to notice that a car is the same color and make as the one
that followed you earlier, to realize that there is something odd about
the grill of that car before the hidden machine gun opens fire.
Situational modifiers apply as necessary.

>
> Which leaves two options: (1) he attempts his full 120"
> teleport anyway, effectively blind, for which the GM gives
> him a reasonably fair chance to miss embedding himself in
> the asphalt, or (2) his teleport becomes limited to the
> amount by which he makes perception: a roll of 10 on the
> dice would make his perception by 4, allowing a maximum
> safe teleport of 31".

Both of which are wrongheaded, IMHO. If the teleporter is trying to hit
a specific hex, then use the rules for hitting a hex at range: at 120",
you are effectively trying to hit DCV 11. Each pip that the character
misses by, he is one hex in a random direction away from the hex he
wanted to be in. If you use a spherical error, then the character will
almost certainly start aiming for a hex or two off the ground, and
learn Breakfall.

>
> Why am I being so cruel on this matter? (1) Because it's
> difficult to design a situation for which the character is
> forced to push the limits of his teleport, and (2) I like
> to fuck with this particular player.

(1) I don't see the problem. 120" will not cross a major river. 60" per
phase (which is the effective velocity) at SPD 4 is 240"/turn, or 89mph.
Your character can be outrun by a pursuing car in straight-line movement.
Give the villains an off-road vehicle and some clear ground over which to
chase him, and you have an exciting game of cat-and-mouse. If 120" of
teleport is getting to be a problem for the campaign, simply require that
he sell back the NCM, or take a limitation on it.

(2) I don't consider this a legitimate goal for a GM. IMNSHO, a GM must
endeavor to be as even-handed as possible with the players. Any ruling
that is made for one player that would not be made for another player
whose character were similarly situated is suspect at best and very
possibly unethical. There are legitimate exceptions: restricting VPPs to
players experienced enough to handle them without bogging down the game;
making players with "magic dice" do their rolls in public, etc., but
these are few and far between.

>
> Here's my question: Is this an unreasonable perversion of
> the rules?

IMHO, yes, as you have interpreted it. By your own proposed rule, he
should have to make an unmodified PER roll to teleport safely even three
hexes. Moreover, I think it is questionable to change the rules so
drastically after a power is bought, unless you discuss the situation
with the player and obtain his/her acquiescence, or unless something has
clearly gotten out of hand. If the problem is merely precision
placement that has gotten out of hand, then using a "hit the hex" rule
can fix it without unduly screwing the player.

Instead, have him sell back some of the teleport or take a limitation on
the NCM, such as Side Effect. The player gets some points back, so
shouldn't feel abused. After all, you let him buy the power in the first
place.


--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest

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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:20:22 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Pre Attacks
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On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:

> At 09:12 AM 3/4/1998 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> >> Especially since (in the movie) he'd just dispatched four or five of
> >> Rugen's swordsmen, one of them without even looking (watch closely).
> [bits snipped]
> >3 - Inigo takes out the last soldier with a thrust to the chest while
> >looking down the hall at Rugen. Pretty nice trick, since Inigo never
> >really look to see where anyone is falling.
>
> Actually the one I was referring to was coming up behind him. Inigo was
> hardly even paying attention; he just thrust backwards with his sword, and
> got the guy in the belly, felling him instantly.

Oh yeah. I was thinking of the same attack, wrong lcoation. I thought
that guy had tripped before and was getting up?

> Now, *that* takes Skill Levels! :-]

And I gave Inigo... CSL: +6 with Fencing.
Yep, that should do it.

> (It's also something I've seen here and there in action TV shows and a
> few other sources. I love it when Batman does it, on the animated series.)

There is a fight scene in Police Story Two, where Jackie Chan does
soemthing similar using a steel pipe. Pretty awesome.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

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X-Authentication-Warning: snowy.owlnet.rice.edu: chip owned process doing -bs
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:26:41 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Reply-To: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
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On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Brian Wong wrote:

> The problem here is you are trying to simulate reality with a
> comic book. It don't work that way. :)
> Flight because you're on fire is perfectly logical in Comic Book
> Physics. So is sliding around on an Ice Platform. So they're both very
> valid EC items in a Comic Book genre.
> Now if you're doing hard-core fantasy or a modern day psionics game
> they're not valid... But they are valid in Super Hero.

This is perfectly acceptable for many superhero campaigns. But that
doesn't mean it's required for the genre. I'm not trying to simulate
reality with a comic book, or even a comic book with reality. I'm talking
about simulating "comic book reality." What that is, and how logical it
is, can and should vary from campaign to campaign, as you point out--but
that means superhero campaigns as well.

It would have been more appropriate to say that flight because you're on
fire is perfectly logical in (some) Comic Book Physics. However, I
believe we're both happily in agreement that whatever the physics are, no
matter how outlandish (I can fly because I'm on fire!), it should be
there. That helps emphasize the importance of SFX. Anticipating such a
response, I wrote:

You'll notice that there are some unrealistic things I readily accept,
and some I don't. Everybody draws the line between "cool!" and "yeah,
right..." somewhere. I don't presume that the place I draw it is the right
way. Depending on where you draw the line, you'll get different kinds of
ECs and different "comic book physics." I'm the type that prefers more
pseudo-science, rather than less--I find it helps define the interaction
between special effects more readily.

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Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 08:39:03 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls
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Rick Holding wrote:
>
> If you have a read of the section talking about power frameworks, you
> will see that placing characteristics in one automatically means no figured
> stats.

HSR p. 60: Characteristics bought with the Multipower Power Framework
never add to Figured Characteristics. Characteristics can only be bought
within other Power Frameworks with special permission from the GM.

This is the only statement in the basic rules on this subject that I can
find, and it seems crystal clear to me. NFC for CHARs in a MP (probably
for sanity's sake, more than for game balance) and special permission for
other frameworks, but you get the figured characterstics


> --
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
> Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
> -----------------------------------------------------------

--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Adjusting hit locations was:Re: Pre Attacks
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:49:00 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@spam.sdslink.com>
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On 3/4/98 11:03 AM Curtis Gibson (mhoram@relia.net) Said:

>One bit in this fight that I have never figured out (elegantly) how to
>model in HERO:
>Ruegen attacks, and Inigo blocks, but instead of a clean block, or a
>clean chest shot for Ruegen it gets his arm (first two thrusts after the
>thrown dagger). I could see this as color for the stun mult/location
>roll but....
>
>In a heroic campaing using hit locations how would anyone model the
>ability to block a head shot or a vitals shot to an arm or leg or
>something. Any ideas?

Off the top of my head -

Maybe you could allow a few levels for "Diverting" attacks. To divert an
attack, the character states that they wish to Block/Divert. The
character then makes a regular block roll.

If the block is successful without using the "Diverting" levels, then the
block succeeds and the attack is blocked.

If the block is successful, but only by adding in the levels defined as
"Diverting" levels, then the attack is moved to the hit location the the
attacked player wishes to divert them to.

If the block, even with the "Diverting" levels is unsuccessful, then the
target is hit in the hit location that the attacker rolled/targeted.

I would give "Only to divert attacks to other Hit Locations" a -1/2 lim
for the DCV levels.

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
Subject: Re: "Stupid Tricks"
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:52:35 -0800
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Here's a classic article on speedster tricks from The Nez Master
<nezmaster@ntr.net&>

Since this is the third request for this that i've gotten in the last
two
days, here's my Complete list of speedster powers, which shows there is
a
way to put virtually every power in the book in a speedster framework.
(well
some of them should probably not be allowed, but it looks good)

Absorption : how about a speedster that absorbs kinetic energy, hence
that's why they move so fast. Put the points into flight/running.

Aid: Here's an odd one, aid (or drain) to flight while running.
Basically
the wind currents from your fantastic speed add to your people in the
area. (Use area effect, must be moving)

Armor: Bullet has extra armor (helmet) only for move throughs.

Change Enviroment: Create fantastic winds as you breeze past. OR change
the currents of the stream/ocean.
(Flash often made winds, or caused tidal waves. Be careful your not
using
another power here though)

Clairsentience: Move around so fast, it's like seeing in two or three
places at the same time! (use all senses, not through locked rooms,
limited range)

Darkness: Clouds of dust as you run, breezing whirlwinds, and probably
some others.

Desolidification: Move so fast you just can't be hit. Vibrate your body
(ala the Flash) so that your molecules will vibrate and become
intangible. (this one is stretching it, but it IS from DC books)

Duplication: well, this is an odd way of doing a speedster. Duplicate
only lasts while moving.
("Damn, He moves so fast it looks like theres 4 of him!)

Energy Blast: Energy blast, defined as a punch.Good way to attack hand
to
hand and still end up in a different hex from your opponent.
(How did he hit me from there?!) Also of course, Autofire, area effect
selective target (wow, he ran past and punched everyone in the room).

Enhanced Senses: WEll, if you can be aware while moving at 200 mph +
per hour, then many different types of senses might make sense.

Entangle: Coils rapped around people, nets, wind tunnels or vortexes
preventing movement (combined with NND attacks that remove air), bags
over the head, building steel cages around the person, building a small
fort, whatever...

Extra Dimensional movement: Moving faster than light, our hero found
himself Propelled through time.

Faster than LIght Travel: I included this one as a power that some
speedsters think they can use, and generally can not. It requires space
flight, which few true speedsters actually have (unless it's a true
flying speedster)

Flash: Dust, placing a blindfold on someone, putting a bag on thier
head,
pulling their shirt over their head, many more..

Flight: This is the best way to by truly super running. with running,
you
can't go up buildings (without
clinging), Run across water, move across flying shards of glass on an
exploding building (the flash again...i loved this one) and all those
other cool tricks. Of course running doesn't have a turn mode, so you
could
buy both if you wanted.

Gliding: When you have that much momentum, it would be nice to slow
yourself down. Perhaps your speedster has reduced masss which helps
explain their speed. This would allow gliding easily.

HtH attack: In the few games where this is legal, it's very useful. Too
useful. Many people feel the power should not exist, but it does.
However
buying strength with various advantadges and limitations is a really
good
idea for a speedster (autofire anyone?)

Images: Make after images of yourself across the room. Basically keep
moving back and forth so fast, that it looks like theres two of you, or
a
trail of you.

Instant change: Basically, blink, a new outfit.

Invisibility: ("Wow. He moves so fast I can't even see him")

Knockback resistance: just moving forward to counter being knocked back.

life Support: Well, in reality, if you COULD run at MACH 1+ you'd need
to
not have to breath, immune to heat.

Mind Link: Getting to the really ridiculous, running to almost anywhere
in the world someone is, to relay messages only. Would take some
explaining for why you can't do more than relay messages. Maybe
Clairsentience + Images would be better.

Mind Scan: One of the first weird ones I pulled. Running through the
city
at incredible speeds, searching every room, every building, every nook
and cranny, our hero found the villian in jsut a few seconds :)

Missle Deflection and Reflection: Running ahead of the bullets, he
grabbed them and veered htem in a new direction, pointed straight back
at
the one who pulled the trigger.

Regeneration: "Good thing my super metabolism heals at such an
extraordinairy rate"

Running: useful for those gritter mood speedsters. sometimes you might
add runnign and flight, just in case, to avoid those turn mode
difficulties
flight gives you.

Stretching: LIke EB, just define it as actually moving to a place, and
moving back.

Summon: "Wait here guys. I'll run out to the woods 75 miles away, and
grab a forest animal at random" OR "We're lost in a desert with no one
around, I'll run into town really quick and get someone to help us, then

bring htem back here."

Superleap: Another movement power, this can work fine. Legs that can run

that fst, can surely jump.

Suppress: movement powers (grab em, put them back wehere they were),
physical thrown things (similar to deflection, lowering the velocity)
*This is really pushing it*

Swimming: Movement powers rule!

Telekinisis: "Watch, I can run over to that table, pour myself a drink,
and bring it back here so fast, you'll never see me move!" Add area
effect
for even more creativity.

Teleportation: Second only to flight in simulating amazing movement.
Just
like Invisibility, basically moving so fast no one saw you move. (No
floating locations, not through locked rooms)
"Damn, how'd he get out here, we left him in there"

Transform: Theres always uses for transform. As others mentioned,
changing someones clothes MIGHT be a transform, Transform full glass to
empty glass (see telekinises), empty gas tank to full gas tank: barren
wall to painted wall, dirty kitchen to clean kitchen, Tall grass to
mowed
lawn...etc..

Tunneling: Fastest shovel in the west!

Talents:
Absolute time sense
Bump of direction (I'll run ahead and make sure we're going the right
way!)
Eidetic Memory:"Hmm..I'll run across town and look that up again, jsut
to
be sure!"
Fast Draw: for that heroic level speedster (?!)
Lightning calculator (obvious)
SImulate Death: "My complete control over my hyper metabolism, allows me

to slow my heartbeat to a crawl!"

Speed reading: (And a HALF..theres probalby a better way to simulate
this)

Universal Translator: I just thought of this one. "Damn, I don't speak
Chinese, Let me run to china inbetween sentences, to ask someone what
you
are saying!" (perhaps only with earth languages as a limitation")

I hope someone gets something out of this. I had a lot of fun writing
it.
As I said, almost any power could work it's way into that Speedster EC
or
multipower, using enough imagination. And I'm sure there's dozens of
ways
I have missed. If you enjoyed this let me know!

Nez@thepoint.com
First master of the backwards philosophy.
Hail Eris and Praise the Huddab!

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:59:08 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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Rick Holding writes:
>
> If you have a read of the section talking about power frameworks, you
> will see that placing characteristics in one automatically means no figured
> stats.

Hm...no, the only reference is stats in multipowers -- it states that if
they're in a multipower, they're no figs. They can only go in other frameworks
with special permission, and while one can interpret this to mean that if you
put it in another framework it's no figs, nothing in the rules actually states
this.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:07:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Adjusting hit locations was:Re: Pre Attacks
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On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, David Fair wrote:

> I would give "Only to divert attacks to other Hit Locations" a -1/2 lim
> for the DCV levels.

To low. "Only to reduce Hit Location Mods" is a -1 Lim on a CSL, so your
version should be somewhere around -2. I mean, your example only affect
attacks that have already hit you, so it is of very limited use.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Subject: Re: "Stupid Tricks"
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:18:47 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@spam.sdslink.com>
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On 3/4/98 11:02 AM David Stallard (DBStallard@compuserve.com) Said:

>I'm real interested in hearing examples of "stupid tricks" for any of the
>common character types (Brick, Mentalist, etc). I think these could really
>help a character to stand out from the rest of the characters of that
>type...this is especially true for Bricks, which have little variety as you
>go from character to character.

Stupid "X" tricks I have used (or seen someone else use):

Bricks:

Thunderclap:
EB, Explosive, No Range, Pers Immunity, Dbl KNB
Foot Stomp:
EB, Cone, No Range, Only Targets on the ground
Hard Skin:
Damage Shield & Missle Deflection
Hold breath for a really long time:
Life support, costs END

Speedsters:

Levels w/ Sweep ('Nuff Said)
Punch everyone in a room (up to 5 times each!):
EB, Any Area, Autofire, Must be able to traverse area in question
(no walls, etc in the way), No Range
Do things out of combat real fast:
Change environment, variable Special effects
Run up a wall
Clinging, Linked to running (oh my god...did he say LINKED!)
(I have never liked flight, requires a surface)
Disorient foe by spinning him around & making him too dizzy to fight:
Dex Drain, no range, must follow a successful grab, extra time:Full
phase
Vibrate through a wall
Tunneling, closes up hole behind him
Sonic Boom:
Energy Blast, Explosive, Extra time:(whatever you need to get going
that fast),
no range, linked w/a Hearing Flash (AGAIN with the linked!)
Other stuff
Cramming, lightning calculator, absolute time sense, sleight of
hand, etc.



David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:21:52 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Ultra Slots
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>around to different abilities as needed. Technically, this is what you are
>doing, but by using only ultra slots, there is essentially no bad side to
>counteract the cost break--with a normal MP, the bad side is that you can't
>have all your powers at full power at the same time.

Well, it depends what 'school' of the linked debate you're on. If you can
attack with two non-linked powers at once, having an all-ultra multipower is
a little limiting. But let's not delve into the Linked Debate.

There are other circumstances where ultra slots become limiting. Say you
have a 60 point Multipower, with only Ultra slots. But, the slot sizes vary
- some are 20 point ultras, some are 30 point ultras, some are 40 point
ultras, and so on. While you can still run more than one power in the
multipower at a time, you are limited in the combinations you can choose -
if you're running a 40 point ultra you can't run a 30 pointer at the same time.

Anyway, it all breaks down to how useful it is to have 4 different attack
powers. 4 60 point attacks are not worth 240 points - because by and large
no single attack is better than any other. The variety is worth something,
of course, but not 240 points.

It's not a 'good side/bad side' issue. You've paid for the first ultra
attack with the Multipower cost, right? Now, the law of diminishing returns
should tell you that each additional 60 point attack is actually of less
utility than its 60 points would indicate - after all, you have another 60
point attack as well. So you only pay a little more for each additional
power (rather than some complex formula that tells you the 4th power is
cheaper than the 3rd, etc.).

Also, there is a bad side to any Multipower - the fact that all the powers
are connected. Adjustment powers are going to hit the Multipower itself
(most likely), so all those powers will be reduced by a single Adjustment
power. If it's a Focus it'll get taken out by a single point of damage to
the focus (usually).

Ultra slots offer 'variety' with restrictions. Multi slots offer variety
with fewer restrictions, and thus cost more.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

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Reply-To: "James Jandebeur" <James@javaman.to>
From: "James Jandebeur" <James@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: Presence Attacks
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:24:20 -0800
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>>The GM just laughed at me, and said "Sure, you can make a Presence attack
>>... at -2d6. The villains are laughing at you!" Now, he did that based
on


>It would seem that your GM used his knowledge of the situation, instead
>of theirs (New Power: GM Mind Link). This should have been a very
>effective PRE attack; it is certainly in genre.


Mr. Fair is absolutely right. I've had this happen to me, and it's not
pretty.

Wouldn't have answered, what with my answer already being up, but you
sounded like you were looking for votes...

JAJ, Rules Philosopher

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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 09:32:43 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Pre Attacks
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 06:56 AM 3/4/98 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:
>> > Forgive the tangent, but how about votes for the best
>> > "Psych Lim: Overconfidence" scene in the movies?
>> >
>
> Akira movie, near the end.
>
>Tetsuo is having a beyonder-manifestation and his non-psionic
>buddy Kaneda goes after him with a laser rifle. That took either
>major guts or a serious failure to grasp the situation. :)
>
To be honest, I vote for the latter. Kaneda was basically a street punk who
had never encountered a problem you couldn't solve by hitting it hard
enough, and he was in waaaaay over his head.

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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 09:32:43 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Pre Attacks
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 06:56 AM 3/4/98 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:
>> > Forgive the tangent, but how about votes for the best
>> > "Psych Lim: Overconfidence" scene in the movies?
>> >
>
> Akira movie, near the end.
>
>Tetsuo is having a beyonder-manifestation and his non-psionic
>buddy Kaneda goes after him with a laser rifle. That took either
>major guts or a serious failure to grasp the situation. :)
>
To be honest, I vote for the latter. Kaneda was basically a street punk who
had never encountered a problem you couldn't solve by hitting it hard
enough, and he was in waaaaay over his head.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Reply-To: "James Jandebeur" <James@javaman.to>
From: "James Jandebeur" <James@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:32:46 -0800
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>I'm not sure if the vision powers necessarily came in the suite, though.
>(As I recall, Ultra Boy and Star Boy both got some sort of eye-beams, but
>it wasn't "heat vision". I may be thinking of the post-Crisis versions,
>though.)


Ultra Boy had all the powers of Superboy(man), but at more powerful levels.
He had "Flash" Vision instead of Heat Vision, which was hotter than the
latter, and "Penetra" Vision, which was not blocked by lead. When he turned
on his invulnerability, while I doubt he was actually "more invulnerable"
than Superboy, he also had no weaknesses to exploit. But he could only use
one of these powers at a time, though I suppose he was probably a bit
tougher than normal when using Super Strength, so these powers were a
multipower with Ultra slots. Yes, I know everyone knows that last part, but
you must admit, the powers model the comics well on this point: you'd
expect Ultra Boy, with the cheaper Multipower, to either do it better or
have fewer disadvantages.

JAJ, Rules Philosopher

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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 09:36:30 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: "Stupid Tricks"
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Duplication isn't as baroque as you might think...I remember one Flash
where Barry Allen protected his secret identity by having a conversation
with himself.

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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 09:44:30 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: "Stupid Tricks"
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At 12:18 PM 3/4/98 -0500, David Fair wrote:
>On 3/4/98 11:02 AM David Stallard (DBStallard@compuserve.com) Said:
>
>>I'm real interested in hearing examples of "stupid tricks" for any of the
>>common character types (Brick, Mentalist, etc). I think these could really
>>help a character to stand out from the rest of the characters of that
>>type...this is especially true for Bricks, which have little variety as you
>>go from character to character.
>
>Stupid "X" tricks I have used (or seen someone else use):
>
>Bricks:
>
>Thunderclap:
> EB, Explosive, No Range, Pers Immunity, Dbl KNB
>Foot Stomp:
> EB, Cone, No Range, Only Targets on the ground
>Hard Skin:
> Damage Shield & Missle Deflection
>Hold breath for a really long time:
> Life support, costs END
>
Bracing:Knockback Resistance, possibly extra Armor or Damage Reduction,
with Full Concentration. Basically, the character tenses his muscles and
holds on real tight...

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Adjusting hit locations was:Re: Pre Attacks
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:48:22 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@spam.sdslink.com>
cc: "Hero Games" <champ-l@omg.org>
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On 3/4/98 12:07 PM Michael Surbrook (susano@access.digex.net) Said:

>> I would give "Only to divert attacks to other Hit Locations" a -1/2 lim
>> for the DCV levels.
>
>To low. "Only to reduce Hit Location Mods" is a -1 Lim on a CSL, so your
>version should be somewhere around -2. I mean, your example only affect
>attacks that have already hit you, so it is of very limited use.

Oops, posted that without proofreading it, I meant -1 1/2.

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 09:54:00 -0800
champ-l@omg.org
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Classic Comic Cliches...
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Yet more...

Heroes meet their older selves from a possible future (where things have
really gone to hell, natch).

Heroes meet evil duplicates of themselves, either clones grown by a villain
or from a parallel universe.

Heroes are framed for a major crime/otherwise dishonored, and must redeem
themselves.

Petty beureucrat is assigned to hero team and ties them down in inane
regulations. "Hey! Fire Lass! You can't use that power in here, there's no
sprinkler system! And Muscles better not grab that i-beam, the whole
building will collapse! And Mentalist Boy...if you read his mind for
evidence, the case will get thrown out of court!"

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 09:57:07 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Striking Toward the Rear
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At 11:20 AM 3/4/1998 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>> Actually the one I was referring to was coming up behind him. Inigo was
>> hardly even paying attention; he just thrust backwards with his sword, and
>> got the guy in the belly, felling him instantly.
>
>Oh yeah. I was thinking of the same attack, wrong lcoation. I thought
>that guy had tripped before and was getting up?

Nope. Watch the fight in slow motion (especially since it goes by so
fast at normal speec that if you sneeze at the wrong moment you'll miss the
whole thing). I don't have my copy of the movie right at hand, so I can't
check (which is also why I'm not sure whether there are four or five), but
I think this guy's the second to last. If you don't look closely, it looks
like Inigo is just winding up to dispatch the final guard, but if you watch
for it you can clearly see his sword thrusting back to impale the one
behind him.

>> Now, *that* takes Skill Levels! :-]
>
>And I gave Inigo... CSL: +6 with Fencing.
>Yep, that should do it.

This is really the question for which I continue to pursue this
discussion on the list. What kind of penalty would this be? Offhand, I'd
just assume that the individual was sensed with some sort of Combat Sense
(or maybe a hearing-based Spatial Awareness with Tactics as RSR).
Actually, based on this, I'd give Inigo +10 Skill Levels with Fencing.
That way he could dispatch all four (or five?) guards with what is
effectively a Sweep, and still have some left over to put into OCV.

>> (It's also something I've seen here and there in action TV shows and a
>> few other sources. I love it when Batman does it, on the animated series.)
>
>There is a fight scene in Police Story Two, where Jackie Chan does
>soemthing similar using a steel pipe. Pretty awesome.

All of which makes it something pretty appropriate for TUMA. I don't
think it's in there, though -- is it, Steve?
---
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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 10:06:28 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
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At 09:06 AM 3/4/98 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, Lizard wrote:
>
>> >Yeah, like Superman. There's a unified concept character if I ever saw one
>> >^_^ Super Speed, Super Strength, Flight, X-Ray Vision, Heat Vision,
>> >Invulnerability. All those lovely unified powers, bless Krypton. ^_^
>>
>> EC:"Super" Powers. In the DC universe, esp. during the 50s and early 60s,
>> that 'suite' of powers almost always came as a bundle. Not just
>> Kryptonians, either:Star Boy got them from flying through a comet, Ultra
>> Boy from being eaten by a space whale, there was a pool of radioactive
>> liquid that granted them temporarily, Pa Kent got them from being exposed
>> to alien spores...and there were dozens of others, usually temporary, that
>> got the same 'set'.
>
>I'm not sure if the vision powers necessarily came in the suite, though.
>(As I recall, Ultra Boy and Star Boy both got some sort of eye-beams, but
>it wasn't "heat vision". I may be thinking of the post-Crisis versions,
>though.)
>
I've just been rereading a pile of early LSH. In their original
incarnations, Star Boy was identical to Superboy, and didn't have his
gravity inducing powers. Ultraboy's only mentioned power was his 'penetra
vision', which could see through and melt lead. (This relatively simple
enhancement to the X-ray vision already possessed by Superboy, Supergirl,
and Mon-El was apparently enough of a 'unique super power' that he got into
the Legion, while poor Polar Boy was rejected. Hmf.) In their later
appearences, Ultra Boy gained the 'one at a time' super powers for which he
is now known and Star Boy lost his ersatz Kryptonian powers and gained (as
it were) his gravity-control powers. To the best of my knowledge, the exact
details of this were not explained until the mid-80s, when he got a
book-length origin story. (IIRC, he was busy being depressed about Dream
Girl for some reason, and so, in great comic-book fashion, reminensced his
entire history, retconning all the while.)

It really scares me that I can remember all this stuff, but have to look up
my own phone number on occasion.

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 10:06:39 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Adjusting hit locations was:Re: Pre Attacks
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At 09:03 AM 3/4/1998 -0700, Curtis Gibson wrote:
>One bit in this fight that I have never figured out (elegantly) how to
>model in HERO:
>Ruegen attacks, and Inigo blocks, but instead of a clean block, or a
>clean chest shot for Ruegen it gets his arm (first two thrusts after the
>thrown dagger). I could see this as color for the stun mult/location
>roll but....
>
>In a heroic campaing using hit locations how would anyone model the
>ability to block a head shot or a vitals shot to an arm or leg or
>something. Any ideas?

We could borrow an idea from RuneQuest, in which (IIRC):
If Attack hits and Parry fails, the defender takes damage.
If Attack hits and Parry hits, the defender's weapon takes damage.
If Attack fails and Parry hits, the attacker's weapon takes damage.
If both fail, nothing happens.

How to apply this to the situation? Well, it's really only inspiration.
The mechanic I'm suggesting is really quite different.
First, of course, if the attack fails, nothing happens (unless the
defender successfully Blocks and one of the two characters has a Damage
Shield going).
If the attack hits and the defender misses his block, this is also
handled normally.
If the defender successfully Blocks a successful attack, then the attack
is, well, blocked. However, if the attacker was trying a Place shot and
made his Attack Roll by more than the defender made his, then he still hits
the defender *somewhere.* The base location is where the attacker was
aiming (with any Rolls made as necessary), and the defender may adjust the
Roll up or down by as much as he made his own Attack roll by (for the
Block), including going completely off the chart.
In the described example with Inigo and Rugen, assume Rugen made his
Attack Roll against Inigo's chest by 4, but Inigo makes his Block by 3.
Rugen still strikes Inigo, but Inigo moves the location up the chart 3
spaces from 10 (chest) to 7 (upper arm).
Does this work for you?
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:07:39 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Hero Games <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Adjusting hit locations was:Re: Pre Attacks
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On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, David Fair wrote:

> On 3/4/98 12:07 PM Michael Surbrook (susano@access.digex.net) Said:
>
> >> I would give "Only to divert attacks to other Hit Locations" a -1/2 lim
> >> for the DCV levels.
> >
> >To low. "Only to reduce Hit Location Mods" is a -1 Lim on a CSL, so your
> >version should be somewhere around -2. I mean, your example only affect
> >attacks that have already hit you, so it is of very limited use.
>
> Oops, posted that without proofreading it, I meant -1 1/2.

That works for me.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:08:58 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Classic Comic Cliches...
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On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Lizard wrote:

Hmm...

> Heroes meet their older selves from a possible future (where things have
> really gone to hell, natch).

Did that. Worked pretty well...

> Heroes meet evil duplicates of themselves, either clones grown by a villain
> or from a parallel universe.

Did that one too, as part of the adventure that featured the part above...

Hey, they may be cliches, but they worked well!

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
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Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:12:34 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> Ah, I should have mentioned that I have a hard time with how Marvel's
> "Iceman" works too. Even if I did think that skating on ice counted as
> (flight), it wouldn't be the godly amount that plopping a movement power
> into an EC gives you. Ice Armor is a similar situation, you'd need plenty
> of ice and then how would you move? Perhaps Iceman is converting himself
> into ice. Furthermore, I'll say it again, I think the BBB examples are
> awful. Look at their fire EC. Flight (leaves a flaming trail). I'm sorry?
> But if it were flight (superheats ambient air and rides the updraft) I
> could allow a (small) amount of flight inside the EC. (I do agree that
> there should be a mechanism for putting small powers into an EC).
>
The problem here is you are trying to simulate reality with a
comic book. It don't work that way. :)
Flight because you're on fire is perfectly logical in Comic Book
Physics. So is sliding around on an Ice Platform. So they're both very
valid EC items in a Comic Book genre.
Now if you're doing hard-core fantasy or a modern day psionics game
they're not valid... But they are valid in Super Hero.

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: "Stupid Tricks"
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:15:33 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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>
> Somebody mentioned that you could save some points with a Speedster and u=
> se
> them to buy a multipower of "stupid Speedster tricks".
>
> I'm real interested in hearing examples of "stupid tricks" for any of the=

My speedster has several of these. She's not a finished character in
that there are problems with how her STR and attacks sync up, which I'm
still planning on how to fix, but she does show several possible ideas.

she's on the web at:

http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/Tao_Kuai.html

Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Adjusting hit locations was:Re: Pre Attacks
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:21:18 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> >One bit in this fight that I have never figured out (elegantly) how to
> >model in HERO:
> >Ruegen attacks, and Inigo blocks, but instead of a clean block, or a
> >clean chest shot for Ruegen it gets his arm (first two thrusts after the
> >thrown dagger). I could see this as color for the stun mult/location
> >roll but....
> >
> >In a heroic campaing using hit locations how would anyone model the
> >ability to block a head shot or a vitals shot to an arm or leg or
> >something. Any ideas?
>
> Off the top of my head -
>
> Maybe you could allow a few levels for "Diverting" attacks. To divert an
> attack, the character states that they wish to Block/Divert. The
> character then makes a regular block roll.
>
The problem here is that it then becomes something common only to
those who buy these levels. In an actual fight, this is what happens to
most block attempts.
I'm almost tempted to make it an automatic thing:

If a defender attempts and fails to block any called shot, then the
attack hits, but to a random location rather than the called one unless
the block was failed by more than 5.

This will make this effect very common, which is how it should be.

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From: SteveL1979 <SteveL1979@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:25:39 EST
Subject: Re: Striking Toward the Rear
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In a message dated 98-03-04 13:23:12 EST, bob.greenwade@klock.com writes:

<< All of which makes it something pretty appropriate for TUMA. I don't
think it's in there, though -- is it, Steve? >>

You mean, attacking multiple people, or knowing that someone is behind you
and attacking them? I sort of lost the reference you were harking back to. I
don't recall specifically addressing either situation in UMA.

Steve Long

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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 10:30:09 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Classic Comic Cliches...
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 01:08 PM 3/4/98 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Lizard wrote:
>
>Hmm...
>
>> Heroes meet their older selves from a possible future (where things have
>> really gone to hell, natch).
>
>Did that. Worked pretty well...
>
>> Heroes meet evil duplicates of themselves, either clones grown by a villain
>> or from a parallel universe.
>
>Did that one too, as part of the adventure that featured the part above...
>
>Hey, they may be cliches, but they worked well!
>
"Cliche" isn't equal to "bad". Things get to BE cliches because they work.
Eliminate every one of the cliches mentioned so far, and you'll be hard
pressed to find enough story ideas for a long campaign...

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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 10:30:09 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Classic Comic Cliches...
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 01:08 PM 3/4/98 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Lizard wrote:
>
>Hmm...
>
>> Heroes meet their older selves from a possible future (where things have
>> really gone to hell, natch).
>
>Did that. Worked pretty well...
>
>> Heroes meet evil duplicates of themselves, either clones grown by a villain
>> or from a parallel universe.
>
>Did that one too, as part of the adventure that featured the part above...
>
>Hey, they may be cliches, but they worked well!
>
"Cliche" isn't equal to "bad". Things get to BE cliches because they work.
Eliminate every one of the cliches mentioned so far, and you'll be hard
pressed to find enough story ideas for a long campaign...

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Classic Comic Cliches...
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:30:30 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> Petty beureucrat is assigned to hero team and ties them down in inane
> regulations. "Hey! Fire Lass! You can't use that power in here, there's no
> sprinkler system! And Muscles better not grab that i-beam, the whole
> building will collapse! And Mentalist Boy...if you read his mind for
> evidence, the case will get thrown out of court!"
>
On a similar vein:

"Extreme Psych Lim Guy" is assigned to or somehow joins the team. This is
the guy with a one track mind which is clearly on the wrong track. like
USagent when he was assigned to the Avengers, or Wolverine when he joined the
X-Men. EPLG constantly challenges leader, disrupts team, and goes on a rampage.

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 10:31:39 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
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At 08:51 AM 3/4/1998 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, John P Weatherman wrote:
>
>> >4. Adjustment powers work vs the EC and all its slots, after all, it's the
>> >same power.
>>
>> I know that the adjustment powers hit everything is commonly accepted.
>
>Although IMODO, that fairly clearly isn't enough on its own to justify
>EC's point break.

It's been a while since I've seen an abbreviation that I couldn't
decipher, but you just hit me with one, Trev ol' boy. What's IMODO (other
than a Japanese figure skater)?

>> However, an EC saves, in and of itself no more than half the cost of a
>> power. Thats a -1 limitation. So why does it give every adjuster out
>> there a +2 advantage: effects all powers of a SPX for free? Just seems to
>> be a little bit of an over reaction to the cost break...
>
>How so? If your reasoning is just "2 is greater than 1", that seems like
>a rather severe non sequitur; I can't think of any reason to compare the
>two numbers you're looking at.

It looks to me like this:
Assuming all slots are equal, the EC pool gives an effective -1
Limitation to all Powers in the pool (at least, after the first) because it
cuts their costs in half.
"Affects All Powers of a Given Special Effect" is an explicitly listed
+2 Advantage for Adjustment Powers.
If an Elemental Control causes any Adjustment Powers to affect all of
its slots at full strength, then an effective -1 Limitation to the Powers
has, in effect, given any Adjustment Power turned against it a +2 Advantage.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:32:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Striking Toward the Rear
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On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:

> Nope. Watch the fight in slow motion (especially since it goes by so
> fast at normal speec that if you sneeze at the wrong moment you'll miss the
> whole thing). I don't have my copy of the movie right at hand, so I can't
> check (which is also why I'm not sure whether there are four or five), but
> I think this guy's the second to last. If you don't look closely, it looks
> like Inigo is just winding up to dispatch the final guard, but if you watch
> for it you can clearly see his sword thrusting back to impale the one
> behind him.

There are four guards, wearing 'mail' shirts, kettle hats and carry pretty
typical 13th C longswords. As to the thrust, I don't have the film handy,
so I'm not going to go on and on about it, but I do know the scene your
are refering to.

> >> Now, *that* takes Skill Levels! :-]
> >
> >And I gave Inigo... CSL: +6 with Fencing.
> >Yep, that should do it.
>
> This is really the question for which I continue to pursue this
> discussion on the list. What kind of penalty would this be? Offhand, I'd
> just assume that the individual was sensed with some sort of Combat Sense
> (or maybe a hearing-based Spatial Awareness with Tactics as RSR).

No, Inigo saw him go by and should still have a good idea where he is.

> Actually, based on this, I'd give Inigo +10 Skill Levels with Fencing.
> That way he could dispatch all four (or five?) guards with what is
> effectively a Sweep, and still have some left over to put into OCV.

Depends. I would say those guards were DEX 11, SPD 2, with *maybe* a +1
with Swords (or HTH). So, that makes them DCV 4. Inigo has to hit 4, so
he's -6 to his CV. If he uses all his levels to pump his OCV and uses a
+1 OCV +3 DCV thrust, then he has an attacking OCV of (8+6+1)-6 = 9. AKA
a 16- to hit. I'd say +6 works just fine.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
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Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:33:28 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: "Stupid Tricks"
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by David Fair
>Stupid "X" tricks I have used (or seen someone else use):<

This is great stuff. Got anything for characters other than bricks or
speedsters that you'd like to share?

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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:33:59 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Classic Comic Cliches...
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On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Lizard wrote:

> >> Heroes meet evil duplicates of themselves, either clones grown by a villain
> >> or from a parallel universe.
> >
> >Did that one too, as part of the adventure that featured the part above...

Oh, I forgot to mention, this prompted the line: "Now I know why you
wanted our character sheets two runs ago..."

> >Hey, they may be cliches, but they worked well!
> >
> "Cliche" isn't equal to "bad". Things get to BE cliches because they work.
> Eliminate every one of the cliches mentioned so far, and you'll be hard
> pressed to find enough story ideas for a long campaign...

Very true. There is a reson why they are called 'cliches'.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
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***************************************************************************

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:44:15 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: "Stupid Tricks"
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Lizard
>Bracing:Knockback Resistance, possibly extra Armor or Damage Reduction,
with Full Concentration. Basically, the character tenses his muscles and
holds on real tight...<

A form of this is automatically given to all characters...I don't remember
the details, but something about using your strength to brace against an
attack and reduce the knockback. It's in the Knockback rules in the BBB.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 13:04:25 -0600
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: Ultra Slots
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On 3/4/98, at 11:14 AM, Michael Surbrook wrote:

>Yes, but with an ultra slot power, you can only have one power running at
>one time

This is a common misconception. Ultra slots must be loaded to their full effect in the multipower (as opposed to a normal slot, which can be loaded partially). If you have a sufficiently high multipower reserve, there is no reason you can't load more than one slot.

Uncommon Solutions...when you need a better way!
http://www.uncommonsolutions.com

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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:19:02 -0500
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Other Great Presence Attacks
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We've had numerous Princess Bride moments mentioned, and Luke's
failed Presence Attack in ROTJ. What other memorable Presence
Attacks do people remember?

Clint Eastwood certainly plays some of the highest-PRE characters
in movies. I'll have to put "Go ahead, make my day" on my list
even though I'd give anybody who used it now -3d6 for media
saturation.

I don't know if it was particularly effective, but Rowdy Roddy
Piper had a truly memorable soliloquy in _They Live-: "I've
come here to chew some bubblegum and kick some ass - and I'm
all out of bubblegum."

Batman, of course, is the definitive Presence Attacker. His
most effective attacks rarely involve any words at all -
his caped form leaping from the darkness or even his shadow
falling in front of a criminal is enough to paralyze his
opponents with fear. With his PRE (I'd probably rate him around
60) even some pretty lame soliloquies work quite well; "I'm Batman!"
is hardly Shakespeare, but the movie Batman pulled it off quite
well. The Giffen/DeMatteis/Maguire Justice League had a great
moment when Batman terrified a criminal with the word "Boo!"
Another of my favorite Batman Presence Attacks occured shortly
after the Flash died in the Crisis. The Mirror Master and
Captain Boomerang moved to Gotham. As they discussed while
they broke into a Gotham museum, they missed having a superheroic
opponent, but didn't want anybody _too_ powerful; they figured
after years of fighting a guy who could run at light speed that
a guy in a cape would be a lightweight opponent. Suddenly, the
shadow of the bat fell over the two of them - they collapsed
in terror.

Superman, especially in the 50's TV series, generally lets
bullets bounce off his chest for a Phase or two - I'd call
that a Presence Attack. Supes has got almost as high a PRE
as Batman, and with his reputation and a multitude of powers
to demonstrate, he can easily convince his minor antagonists
to surrender without much of a fight.


These are just a few off the top of my head - anybody else
got any favorites?

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Subject: Re: "Stupid Tricks"
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:28:33 -0500
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On 3/4/98 1:33 PM David Stallard (DBStallard@compuserve.com) Said:

>>Stupid "X" tricks I have used (or seen someone else use):<
>
>This is great stuff. Got anything for characters other than bricks or
>speedsters that you'd like to share?

Not really, because I (usually) don't play mentalists, and Projectors and
Martial Artists are so varied already, that I have never tried to come up
with any for them.

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

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Subject: Re: Adjusting hit locations was:Re: Pre Attacks
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:28:36 -0500
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On 3/4/98 1:21 PM Brian Wong (rook@shell.infinex.com) Said:

>
> If a defender attempts and fails to block any called shot, then the
>attack hits, but to a random location rather than the called one unless
>the block was failed by more than 5.

But then I get to move virtually any called shot to chest and vitals to
my hands and arms, even though I FAIL to block, as long as I don't fail
bad enough?

That seems to over-penalize the called shot maker.

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

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From: "Salmon, David W" <dsalmon@crt.xerox.com>
Subject: Autofire and Trigger
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:33:01 PST
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> Okay guys ... how would you rule on this example ...
>
> AttackmeMan has a PD AID with a trigger which goes off each time he is
> hit by an attack. The trigger is then automatically reset for the next
> attack which hits him. Can you see where this is going yet ???
> BadguyintightsMan hits AttackmeMan with an Autofire RKA vs PD and hits
> him 3 out of five times. Now, does AttackmeMan get to roll his AID 3
> times or one?? The question comes up because only one attack roll was
> made but he was physically hit 3 times. I don't want to risk
> restarting the "Great Linked" debate, but if you reply, does your
> response take into account linked powers?? Thanks in advance for your
> great wisdom.
>
>
> ...Dave S.

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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 11:42:24 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Other Great Presence Attacks
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The Flash, and Superman, both pull this trick regularly:

Crook are running along. "Hey, we got away!" Then they end up about 1/2
inch from Chest Of Super.

Turn around and dash back the other way. Run about ten feet -- and run into
Super.

Repeat three or four times.

Super doesn't even have to talk. The whole "No matter which way you run,
I'm in front of you" shtick gets the crooks to surrender.

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From: Pat10355 <Pat10355@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:46:34 EST
Subject: Re: Other Great Presence Attacks
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One of my favorites is from Alien Nation -- it was in the novelization, I
can't remember if it was in the final cut of the film.

Desperate for information, the alien cop grabs a thug by the neck. Trying to
help, his human partner tells the thug that he'd better talk or the alien
might rip out his lungs.

Thug: "Hey, look, I can't tell you anything if you kill me."
Alien Cop: "Then I will ask someone else. It will not matter to you, because
you will be dead."

That's got to be at least a +2d6 Soliloquy, plus another couple dice for
appropriate situation.

Patrick Sweeney

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 12:18:14 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Striking Toward the Rear
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At 01:25 PM 3/4/1998 EST, SteveL1979 wrote:
>In a message dated 98-03-04 13:23:12 EST, bob.greenwade@klock.com writes:
>
><< All of which makes it something pretty appropriate for TUMA. I don't
> think it's in there, though -- is it, Steve? >>
>
> You mean, attacking multiple people, or knowing that someone is behind you
>and attacking them? I sort of lost the reference you were harking back
to. I
>don't recall specifically addressing either situation in UMA.

Definitely the latter. (Attacking multiple people falls under "Sweep.")
---
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Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:19:11 -0500
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Batman's Presence (was Re: hero)
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At 02:35 PM 3/4/98 -0600, Sakura wrote:
>On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, BILL SVITAVSKY wrote:
>
>> Batman, of course, is the definitive Presence Attacker. His
>> most effective attacks rarely involve any words at all -
>> his caped form leaping from the darkness or even his shadow
>> falling in front of a criminal is enough to paralyze his
>> opponents with fear. With his PRE (I'd probably rate him around
>> 60) even some pretty lame soliloquies work quite well; "I'm Batman!"
>
>I wouldn't give ol' Bats a 60 pre without some serious limitations...he
>/is/ only human. I'd figure his PRE as Bruce Wayne (say 15 - he seems to
>be a likeable enough fellow, but not one posessed of godlike charisma) and
>then give him the following:
>
>+30 PRE, only to resist PRE attacks (possibly more - Batman doesn't scare
>easily...)
>+40 PRE, only to cause fear, Hero ID only.
>
>Of course, he'd be getting bonuses to his PRE attacks all over the place
>from reputation and the like...
>

Only human? Yeah, but he doesn't always _seem_ human, and seeming is what
PRE is about. This is a guy who's been known to startle Superman, the Swamp
Thing, and just about everyone else he's ever met. Batman's Presence is
definitely one of his major "powers"; from a play balance point of view I'd
consider a 60 PRE as significant as a 12d6 Energy Blast, and I'd consider
Batman a character who has that significant a PRE. Even scaring his enemies
as regularly as he does is impressive; the Joker is no PRE slouch, nor are
the Scarecrow, Ra's Al Ghul, etc.

I was making a very vague and general rating in assessing Batman's PRE as
60, and one could certainly break things down a bit more, with some only in
Hero ID, etc. But I wouldn't lower Bruce's base PRE too far. Batman
definitely acts a lot more impressive in costume than he does as Bruce, but
I'd say most of the potential is there even without the costume. One can,
of course, get into the whole costume mystique, how the mask gives him
confidence, brings out his inner bat, etc. But imagine a scenario where
Batman's secret ID is revealed and he starts acting heroic without the mask
(e.g. The Dark Knight Returns or Kingdom Come); I'd wager he'd still be
pretty darn intimidating.

While he doesn't often make Presence Attacks as Bruce, he does use his PRE
skills often enough. Bruce clearly has high Acting, Seduction, Trading, and
Conversation, and I doubt his Streetwise goes away when he takes off the
mask. His awesome Disguise is obviously not dependent on the mask (though
I've seen some artists show Batman's disguises to be _over_ the Bat-mask!)
:-)

You make a good point with the "Only to Cause Fear" limit; Batman certainly
can't make as inspirational a speech or gesture as Superman does on a
regular basis. I'm often inclined to treat the different specializations of
PRE as a special effect, though. If the hulking monster character buys a
high PRE, I assume it's an intimidating PRE (unless the concept specifies
otherwise) and give "inappropriate" modifiers if he's making a "please do
it for me, because I'm such a nice guy" type attack.

Another great Batman Presence Attack just came to mind. In JLA #200, I
think it was, the original members of the JLA (original original, not
post-Crisis-post-Zero-Hour-Post-Retcon-of-the-month original) were, in
essence, mind-controlled to become evil; the other Leaguers had to track
them down and stop them. Black Canary and Green Arrow, who'd been friends
with Bats for years, went after him. He popped out of the shadows and
scared them silly, naturally.

By the way, I'd also make the Creeper's laugh +40 or more PRE, Only for
Fear Attacks. He's been known to bother even the Batman.

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From: Prodipto Roy <proy@MICROSOFT.com>
Subject: RE: GMing tips :Accessori
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:20:22 -0800
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> Since "combat takes too long" is one of the primary complaints
> about Champions, this system could easily be adapted to the game
> to see if it speeds things up. Sure, there will still be adjustments
> that have to be made on-the-fly (such as range modifiers), but it
> seems to be worth a try. For successful attacks, lists of damages
> could also be prerolled for various die values. Write a simple
> program to generate 25 values each for 2d6, 3d6, 4d6 and so on,
> use a new sheet each game and just cross them off as you use them.
> Make separate columns for normal and killing attacks.
> If you know (as GM) that one of your villians has something odd
> like 3 1/2 d6, you can make up a separate column just for that.
>
This is an interesting point. A friend of mine wrote an app which I tested
which handles all the dice rolling, including explosions, hit locations, to
hits and damage, etc. We just finished the last testing phases, and I've
been running it on my laptop. It's sped things up a lot. I just click away
merrily behind my screen and don't have to spend a lot of cycles rolling and
adding dice. If anyone would like this app, I'll send it to you. It's
basically freeware since we did it on a lark. I don't want to send it to
the list, but if anyone wants to mess with it, please send me mail and I'll
send it back as an attachment (It's 220K).

--Pro

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 13:34:05 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: "Stupid Tricks"
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At 02:28 PM 3/4/1998 -0500, David Fair wrote:
>On 3/4/98 1:33 PM David Stallard (DBStallard@compuserve.com) Said:
>
>>>Stupid "X" tricks I have used (or seen someone else use):<
>>
>>This is great stuff. Got anything for characters other than bricks or
>>speedsters that you'd like to share?
>
>Not really, because I (usually) don't play mentalists, and Projectors and
>Martial Artists are so varied already, that I have never tried to come up
>with any for them.

There are a lot of good "tricks" for mentalists and martial artists
listed in the respective Ultimate books (hi Steve). If someone else
doesn't beat me to the punch, I'll list off some of the cooler ones at a
later time.
As for Energy Projectors, Mr Fair, you have a point regarding the wide
variability of their powers. To my mind, the best things that a book like
The Ultimate Energy Projector could do is define the properties of each
type of energy commonly used by comic-book Energy Projectors, boil them
down to Advantages and Limitations (ideally no more than one of each for
each energy type), give a quantification such as Len Carpenter posted to
the list a couple of months ago (at my request, thanks Len), and maybe go
into a few common EP schticks like Personal Immunity.
One "stupid EP trick" I've seen frequently is where two EPs keep their
blasts going at each other at a Constant level, but the two blasts hit each
other at the mid-point and cancel each other out. Often, the stronger one
gradually pushes to meeting point closer to the weaker one. However, this
stunt, which I refer to as Sumo Blasting, has never been written up in Hero
terms as far as I'm aware.
---
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 13:40:12 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Other Great Presence Attacks
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At 11:42 AM 3/4/1998 -0800, Lizard wrote:
>The Flash, and Superman, both pull this trick regularly:
>
>Crook are running along. "Hey, we got away!" Then they end up about 1/2
>inch from Chest Of Super.
>
>Turn around and dash back the other way. Run about ten feet -- and run into
>Super.
>
>Repeat three or four times.
>
>Super doesn't even have to talk. The whole "No matter which way you run,
>I'm in front of you" shtick gets the crooks to surrender.

I've seen this done on The Greatest American Hero as well. A baddie was
trying to make his escape, so Ralph just ran around to the other side of
the building, appeared about ten feet in front of him, and said, "Boo!"
The baddie fainted dead away.
---
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 13:45:53 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Other Great Presence Attacks
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At 02:19 PM 3/4/1998 -0500, BILL SVITAVSKY wrote:
>
>We've had numerous Princess Bride moments mentioned, and Luke's
>failed Presence Attack in ROTJ. What other memorable Presence
>Attacks do people remember?

This one took place in a game session from a fantasy campaign that I
wasn't even a part of. It was described to me, and has stuck in my mind
ever since. I may have some of the details wrong, but the line is a classic.

About a month prior to this, the party had picked up a youngish woman as
a domestic helper. She was fairly mysterious about her past, but most of
the group wasn't all that curious anyway.
Then the party, numbering about 20, came face to face with (IIRC) a
barbarian horde of, well, considerably more than 20. The party leader
requested safe passage. The barbarian chieftain's envoy spat at him,
mocked his ancestry and his eating habits, and led his people in a great
laugh.
Eating habits?
On hearing that particular remark, the cook stepped forward, grabbed the
envoy's arm, flipped him on his back, tossed away his sword, and
one-punched him.
Of course, nobody was more suprised at this than the PCs. Fortunately,
the party leader kept his head. Raising his voice to be heard, he said.
"All right, now you've met our *cook.* Does anyone want to take on a
*real* warrior?"
As you can guess, they passed unmolested.
---
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 13:49:58 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Ultra Slots
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At 01:04 PM 3/4/1998 -0600, Guy Hoyle wrote:
>
>On 3/4/98, at 11:14 AM, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>
>>Yes, but with an ultra slot power, you can only have one power running at
>>one time
>
>This is a common misconception. Ultra slots must be loaded to their full
effect in the multipower (as opposed to a normal slot, which can be loaded
partially). If you have a sufficiently high multipower reserve, there is
no reason you can't load more than one slot.

One of my early characters was specifically loaded to have any two of
his Multipower slots (all fixed) running at once. Usually that meant
Flight and Density, Force Field and Energy Blast, or Force Field and STR.
On the one occasion that the team was in really deep doo-doo he went to
both Density and STR. (They were 60 point slots, so total STR was 150 with
his base of 30 -- but his PD and ED were down to 15 each even with the DI
bonus, so it had *better* work! Fortunately, it did.)
---
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 14:07:14 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: GMing tips :Accessori
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 01:20 PM 3/4/1998 -0800, Prodipto Roy wrote:
>This is an interesting point. A friend of mine wrote an app which I tested
>which handles all the dice rolling, including explosions, hit locations, to
>hits and damage, etc. We just finished the last testing phases, and I've
>been running it on my laptop. It's sped things up a lot. I just click away
>merrily behind my screen and don't have to spend a lot of cycles rolling and
>adding dice. If anyone would like this app, I'll send it to you. It's
>basically freeware since we did it on a lark. I don't want to send it to
>the list, but if anyone wants to mess with it, please send me mail and I'll
>send it back as an attachment (It's 220K).

I'll take it. If nothing else, I can branch off Software Resources from
my "Original Hero Stuff Page."
---
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:22:27 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Speedsters
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> Your math is correct, though the stats are arguably still a tad higher
> than the necessarily need to be. A beginning speedster could probably
> still get away with 25 DEX 6 SPD, or even lower if extra-fast reflexes
> aren't necessarily a part of the *specific* concept. (At least you're not
> trying to get 33 DEX 10 SPD; that should come only with experience.)

Exactly. The Speedster, at the base concept, is someone who can
move very quickly (compared to normal characters). This can be achieved
with running, flight, T-Port or even Gliding, Tunneling, Swinging or
Swimming. (The first two are most common, of course.)

I have one going right now somewhere between 20-24 DEX (I'll have
to check, but I think 20) and 5-6 SPD (same, but I think 5). His points
go into a MP of powers defined as built-up Physiokinetic Energy with an
EB, a few Transfers, etc.

He moves at a decent rate, running somewhere near 27-29" per
phase.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:23:26 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Pre Attacks
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> (2) Or my favorite movie PRE Attack ever:
>
> "Drop... your... sword."

I still prefer Fezzik's, "The Dread Pirate Roberts is here for
your soul!" -- with the SFX of course.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 14:24:05 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: "Stupid Tricks"
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At 01:34 PM 3/4/98 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:

> One "stupid EP trick" I've seen frequently is where two EPs keep their
>blasts going at each other at a Constant level, but the two blasts hit each
>other at the mid-point and cancel each other out. Often, the stronger one
>gradually pushes to meeting point closer to the weaker one. However, this
>stunt, which I refer to as Sumo Blasting, has never been written up in Hero
>terms as far as I'm aware.

It also is seen in mentalist-vs-mentalist duels. It's a common enough genre
convention that there really ought to be a Hero treatment of it, along with
'bouncing energy blasts' and similair stunts which ARE in the rulebook.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:26:11 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Pre Attacks
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> > Oh, quite. He had killed those four guards with remarkable ease.
> >Rugen was a bit shaken, but not running at this point. He tried to fight,
> >remember. Key word tried.
> >
>
> Almost argues for a modification to the Presence Attack rules to
> allow an OCV minus for nervousness due to the Presence Attack.

Oh, I'd disagree. Inigo, even injured, was head and shoulders
above Rugen.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:29:55 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Pre Attacks
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I just read the book, so I think I'll comment a bit here:

> Finally, here are the PRE values for the assorted PB characters, taken
> from the write-ups I posted to the list a while back:
>
> Fezzik: 15

At least. Possibly some extra for offence only.

> Humperdink: 20

Possibly should be lower. 15-18? Was described as a bit of a
coward at heart. Of shift lower and add extra, only for offence.

> Inigo: 15

Good. Maybe with some PRE defense. He was nigh unflappable.

> Wesley: 20

More. 25+, even in a NCM-level campaign.

> Rugen: 18

Yeah.

> Vezzini: 10

Good.

-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:34:17 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Pre Attacks
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> Well, duh :-). Good example of a bad PRE attack. Luke did NOT have a lot of
> PRE - less than Han Solo, I'll bet (probably some more EGO after Jedi
> training, though). Let's look at Luke's modifiers:
>
> -1D6 for inappropriate setting (while walking a plank)
> -1D6 for being at a disadvantage (skillion to one odds)
> -1D6 for weak reputation ("He is no Jedi.")
> -2D6 for running against existing moods (everyone was rooting for their deaths)
>
> No wonder everybody laughed at Luke. At least until he started waving around
> the lightsaber...

Oh, quite true. But I still wouldn't call it overconfidence. OC
would be the same PRE attack with no plan in motion.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:40:25 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Bubble-Boy
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> > There's nothing wrong with him being able to turn off his own
> > Uncontrolled powers. Just make that one of the "set of conditions" that
> > will stop the uncontrolled power.
>
> Technically legal, but the inability to turn off the Power is one of the
> things which balances Uncontrolled against, say, Persistent. One shouldn't
> be able to circumvent that at 0 cost.

I see no reason why not. The advantage mentions no inherent
limitation, and it fits some source concepts. If the concept fits, I'd
allow it. Other options, as I said, were things like a magical command
word.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Speedsters
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "DS" == David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> writes:

DS> This doesn't make sense to me. It sounds like you created a
DS> specialized martial artist who can run fast, but his SPD is so low that
DS> actions will be happening around him while he waits for his phase to
DS> come up...the opposite of my conception of a speedster. I can't see
DS> having a speedster with a SPD less than 6 (7 or 8 is better).

You are thinking in segments, not turns. Take a philosophical step back,
and consider the 12-segment turn as the basic unit of Champions combat
time. Within a turn, a speedster should be able to deck four or five
generic thugs. You can give him a Speed 8, and spend each of his actions
performing half-moves and attacks against each of the five thugs. Or you
can give him a Speed 4, and spend those 40 points on things like more
running and OCV skill levels, and spend those 4 actions performing multiple
move by or sweep maneuvers.

The end result is the same: five thugs down. But there are some
significant benefits to doing it the second way. Probably most important
from a combat perspective, assuming two characters with equal Strength, is
that because the second character has more base running, his Move By
maneuvers will do more damage. He is also going to be spending less
Endurance, because he is exerting his Strength half as frequently as the
first character. He might even get a better OCV out of the deal.

DS> I'm real interested in hearing about these "stupid speedster tricks",
DS> or "stupid tricks" for any of the character styles (Brick, etc). I
DS> like characters to have a lot of options rather than just a few
DS> powerful options.

Simply a framework, Multipower or VPP, of powers that simulate tricks
unique to that type of character. For instance, for bricks, AoE Energy
Blast (shockwave) and Entangle (wrapping up the villain in whatever is
convenient). For speedsters, teleportation or tunnelling (vibrating
through walls/entangles/whatever) and Change Environment (to simulate doing
"mundane" things quickly, until the "superspeed" whatever that may appear
in the 5th edition, should that appear).

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
\ Earth, presumably from outer space.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:42:34 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Bubble-Boy
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> > Heck, it would tend to fit certain SFX. Think of an "Enternal
> > Hellfire" type of thing that will burn an opponent without any need to
> > maintain. However, quite logically, our demonic attacker can say,
> > "Enough" at any time.
>
> That's what Continuous is for.

For a power Mr. Demon can use and ignore while it burns, but then
simply turn it off?



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:50:00 -0500
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Pre Attacks
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> > Oh, quite. He had killed those four guards with remarkable ease.
> >Rugen was a bit shaken, but not running at this point. He tried to fight,
> >remember. Key word tried.
> >
>
> Almost argues for a modification to the Presence Attack rules to
> allow an OCV minus for nervousness due to the Presence Attack.

Another situation where this penalty would apply is in the
second Tarzan novel. Tarzan is set up to be challenged to a
duel of honor by a French nobleman. The problem is that Tarzan
actually likes the guy, and (being unaccustomed to the rules
of civilization) isn't sure whether or not he really is in the
wrong.

Thus, when the duelists are supposed to fire their pistols,
Tarzan doesn't. He gets shot, of course, but being Tarzan he
doesn't fall. The nobleman is shocked, and becomes worried
that Tarzan's plan is to gamble that he'll survive the three
shots in his pistol, then will aim carefully to kill. This
thought only scares him more, so his second shot is glancing
and the third shot misses completely.

This was definitely a case of an OCV penalty due to a Presence
Attack. It is also a good argument for the GM-declared Presence
Attacks which I mentioned earlier; Tarzan wasn't _trying_ to
intimidate the nobleman - he's just naturally intimidating.

I believe the Horror Hero Presence rules do assign penalties
to CV's and Skill Rolls under some conditions; it could be a
very good idea to integrate a lot of those rules into the
general PRE rules.

The ending to Tarzan's duel, by the way, was extremely cool.
Tarzan, still believing he might be in the wrong, walked up to
the nobleman and declared "There must be something wrong with
your pistol, for I know you are an excellent marksman. Please,
take mine." The nobleman realized that Tarzan was quite a guy,
and instantly swore lifelong friendship to him.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:03:49 -0500
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: "Stupid Tricks"
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Lizard wrote:

At 01:34 PM 3/4/98 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:

> One "stupid EP trick" I've seen frequently is where two EPs keep their
>blasts going at each other at a Constant level, but the two blasts hit each
>other at the mid-point and cancel each other out. Often, the stronger one
>gradually pushes to meeting point closer to the weaker one. However, this
>stunt, which I refer to as Sumo Blasting, has never been written up in Hero
>terms as far as I'm aware.

It also is seen in mentalist-vs-mentalist duels. It's a common enough genre
convention that there really ought to be a Hero treatment of it, along with
'bouncing energy blasts' and similair stunts which ARE in the rulebook.

********************************

[Please excuse my lack of quoting indents - I have a really
cheesy mail set-up right now]

I've never thought of it before, but you two are absolutely
right - there should be a Champions mechanic for this.

It seems to me that a good approach to this would be a variant
on the comparison of BODY done in the STR vs. STR contests to
resist Grabs, Disarms, etc. A "Blasting Block" could be a
block maneuver vs. other EB's; if successful, BODY damage would
be calculated for each EB. The greater EB could then be used as
an attack next phase (or the same phase if the BODY was more than
double.)

I'm sure this needs a lot of work, and the whole concept is
questionably close to a maneuver combining attack and defense,
but it seems to me like a Hero Systemish sort of solution to
the problem. Anybody want to elaborate on it?

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: SteveL1979 <SteveL1979@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:05:59 EST
Subject: Re: Striking Toward the Rear
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In a message dated 98-03-04 17:02:58 EST, bob.greenwade@klock.com writes:

<< >In a message dated 98-03-04 13:23:12 EST, bob.greenwade@klock.com writes:
>
><< All of which makes it something pretty appropriate for TUMA. I don't
> think it's in there, though -- is it, Steve? >>
>
> You mean, attacking multiple people, or knowing that someone is behind you
>and attacking them? I sort of lost the reference you were harking back
to. I
>don't recall specifically addressing either situation in UMA.

Definitely the latter. (Attacking multiple people falls under "Sweep.")
>>

OK, I follow you, then. I think there are probably plenty of ways to
simulate it -- various forms of Damage Shield, attacks linked to the expanded
Defense Maneuver, levels with Sweep and held actions, the Spatial Awareness
"Only To Sense Attackers From Behind" previously mentioned (plus possibly a
linked Triggered attack of some kind). The exact Power used and effect would
depend upon the type of character, the genre, etc.

Steve Long

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X-Authentication-Warning: bermuda.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:53:47 -0600 (CST)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: "Stupid Tricks"
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On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, BILL SVITAVSKY wrote:
> Lizard wrote:
>
> At 01:34 PM 3/4/98 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> > One "stupid EP trick" I've seen frequently is where two EPs keep their
> >blasts going at each other at a Constant level, but the two blasts hit each
> >other at the mid-point and cancel each other out.

Well, digging out my GURPS Supers I see that they actually did something
that Champs didn't! Now there's a switch.

In that system, a successful parry subtracts the Power of the defending
power from that of the attacking power.

Admittedly, it doesn't really handle the 'constant stream of energy' duels
very well...so here's my Optional Rule:

Assuming the powers and SFX make sense for a 'duel' of this type, the
defending character can abort to a 'power block' using that power. An
'interface point' is set up halfway between the characters. Both
characters roll damage, and count BODY. Subtract the weaker attack from
the stronger one - the 'interface point' moves that many inches towards
the weaker attack.

If the 'interface point' reaches one of the combatants, s/he takes the
excess damage that was not blocked. If either combatant tries to break off
the duel (by attacking someone else or diving out of the way), the other
may immediately make a free attack on them with the power used in the
duel.

Hmm...there's the bare bones of it anyway. You might want to add a rule
that if either combatant moves, the 'interface point' moves in the same
direction for half the distance - this keeps the proportions correct. You
might also decree that characters involved in this sort of duel can't move
without allowing their opponent the free attack mentioned above.

Not sure what to do about differing speeds, either...

J

"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:08:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Daniel R Palacio <dandan@cats.ucsc.edu>
X-Sender: dandan@si.UCSC.EDU
Subject: Send Me Stuff
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To: champ-l@omg.org


Can somebody send me the two messages that had the speedster
tricks and the Brick tricks. My e-mail account is being tempermental
today...

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:23:47 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: "Stupid Tricks"
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At 05:53 PM 3/4/1998 -0600, Sakura wrote:
>Assuming the powers and SFX make sense for a 'duel' of this type, the
>defending character can abort to a 'power block' using that power. An
>'interface point' is set up halfway between the characters. Both
>characters roll damage, and count BODY. Subtract the weaker attack from
>the stronger one - the 'interface point' moves that many inches towards
>the weaker attack.
>
>If the 'interface point' reaches one of the combatants, s/he takes the
>excess damage that was not blocked. If either combatant tries to break off
>the duel (by attacking someone else or diving out of the way), the other
>may immediately make a free attack on them with the power used in the
>duel.
>
>Hmm...there's the bare bones of it anyway. You might want to add a rule
>that if either combatant moves, the 'interface point' moves in the same
>direction for half the distance - this keeps the proportions correct. You
>might also decree that characters involved in this sort of duel can't move
>without allowing their opponent the free attack mentioned above.
>
>Not sure what to do about differing speeds, either...

It's a start, anyway. I think this is a great mechanic.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:26:49 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Autofire and Trigger
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At 11:33 AM 3/4/1998 PST, Salmon, David W wrote:
>> Okay guys ... how would you rule on this example ...
>>
>> AttackmeMan has a PD AID with a trigger which goes off each time he is
>> hit by an attack. The trigger is then automatically reset for the next
>> attack which hits him. Can you see where this is going yet ???
>> BadguyintightsMan hits AttackmeMan with an Autofire RKA vs PD and hits
>> him 3 out of five times. Now, does AttackmeMan get to roll his AID 3
>> times or one?? The question comes up because only one attack roll was
>> made but he was physically hit 3 times. I don't want to risk
>> restarting the "Great Linked" debate, but if you reply, does your
>> response take into account linked powers?? Thanks in advance for your
>> great wisdom.

Just offhand I'd say that the Aid only goes off once. For one thing, I
see nothing in the writeup of Trigger that allows it to automatically reset
itself. For another, even if it did, I'd have a problem with it working
more than once in the Phase of the character who owns it.
And I frankly don't see what Linked has to do with it. How do Linked
Powers play into the question at all?
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:29:29 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Pre Attacks
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At 04:23 PM 3/4/1998 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> (2) Or my favorite movie PRE Attack ever:
>>
>> "Drop... your... sword."
>
> I still prefer Fezzik's, "The Dread Pirate Roberts is here for
>your soul!" -- with the SFX of course.

That's actually why I like the DYS soliloquy better. Fezzik's required
a lot of setup, and a well-written speech. That actually got a laugh from
me. On the other hand, when Westley did his line (with Rob Reiner's
inspired touch of using a camera angle from Humperdinck's POV), even *I*
wanted to find a sword and drop it.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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From: Michael Sprague <msprague@eznet.net>
Reply-To: "msprague@eznet.net" <msprague@eznet.net>
Subject: RE: GMing tips :Accessori
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:51:54 -0500
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Speaking of accessories and combat taking too long, a while back, a friend
created a "slide rule" for champions combat. I have always been meaning to
make up a couple with wood or plastic (he used cardboard, and it didn't
last). If memory serves, you simply lined up two numbers, your OCV and the
number you rolled, then there was a mark showing you what DCV you hit.

No math involved (I can do complex math in my head until I get into the
heat of combat) except for figuring out your OCV.

~ Mike

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 19:39:10 -0600
From: Mike Whitney <mwhitney@swbell.net>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: GMing tips :Accessori
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Michael Sprague wrote:

> Speaking of accessories and combat taking too long, a while back, a friend
> created a "slide rule" for champions combat.

Mike, go to Theala's home page, (http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html)
and in her Original Gaming files area, you can find:

The Combat Matrix Sheet is a quick reference OCV vs DCV chart created by
my friend Tim Binford. It works sorta like a THACO chart, and includes
space
for GMs to keep track of players/NPCs during combat.

A very useful file! :)

Mike

>

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From: Michael Sprague <msprague@eznet.net>
Reply-To: "msprague@eznet.net" <msprague@eznet.net>
Subject: RE: Ultra Slots
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:16:07 -0500
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While I have seen both, ultra's are far more common, simply because it's
cheaper. It also depends on what the multipower is being used for. I
often use it to represent a single power that can be used in many ways.
Each slot is an ultra, using the full multipower.

For example, say you have a fire SFX based character, and the multipower
represents a generic flame blast. Breaking that into slots, you have plain
old energy blast slot, an energy blast with one of the area effect
Advantages slot, an energy blast with another interesting advantage slot,
then we will add a Change Environment (Heat) slot, and so on.

As a GM, I am pretty strict on multipowers. They have to make sense. No
Swiss army knife of Powers Multipowers are allowed in my game.

> Also, there is a bad side to any Multipower - the fact that all the
powers
> are connected. Adjustment powers are going to hit the Multipower itself
> (most likely), so all those powers will be reduced by a single Adjustment
> power.

I am not sure that's true (note that I do play Elemental Controls this way
though), though I am willing to have my mind changed on this subject. I am
not sure you can usually effect the multipower pool unless you have put a
limitation (like focus) on it.

>If it's a Focus it'll get taken out by a single point of damage to the
focus (usually).

Usually more than a single point, but I agree with this. I really dislike
the "Utility Belt" as presented in Dark Champions. I understand why it was
done that way ... but I still disagree with it.

~ Mike


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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:55:24 EST
Subject: Introducing... The Bannermen!
Apparently-To: <champ-l@omg.org>
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To: champ-l@omg.org

I have recently submitted a banner ad to LinkExchange to promote Gold Rush
Games, and I got to thinking about the offers some of you made about
displaying our banner on your web site(s). If you are interested, please e-
mail me and I will send along the banner (it's 440x40). And for those
interested in swapping banners, also drop me a line. ;)

Mark @ GRG

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 18:59:12 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
Subject: Re: Adjusting hit locations was:Re: Pre Attacks
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To: champ-l@omg.org

> > If a defender attempts and fails to block any called shot, then the
> >attack hits, but to a random location rather than the called one unless
> >the block was failed by more than 5.
>
> But then I get to move virtually any called shot to chest and vitals to
> my hands and arms, even though I FAIL to block, as long as I don't fail
> bad enough?
>
> That seems to over-penalize the called shot maker.

It may seem that way, but first you need to have the ability to abort an
action.
And it is realistic. It's trivial to redirect an attack to another part of the
body. The
hard part is to stop the attack alltogether.
Real life has taught me that.


--
Rook
__
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:11:51 -0600
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Lizard wrote:

>> Can you imagine telling a PC:"The villain just shot an energy bolt at
you.
>> You fall over and are unconscious." without rolling to-hit, damage,
>> deducting armor, etc?


Trevor Barrie replied:

>Certainly I can. Is there something wrong with that technique?


There is nothing wrong with the technique, but it is simply not appropriate
for some people's games, mine included.

That type of ruling would be very well suited to a storytelling game. If
used too frequently in a regular ol' RPG you will eventually become thought
of as a high-handed GM. My first Champions GM ran in exactly that way.
Nobody has seen him for a long time now, NOBODY. Seriously, everyone except
the GM's roommate went to eat at IHOP after the last scenario and decided as
a group to never go back. Not the most professional way to handle a bad GM
but certainly ended the problem for me.

As I have already stated, I don't think that there is anything wrong with
the technique, but it must fit the style of playing that the majority of the
players want or they won't have fun. That is MY number one reason for
playing Champions, at least now that I no longer expect it to give me any
type of degree for my long hours of study and devotion to it. More than one
poster has seemed to ignore the fact that the "'Cause I said so." type of
GMing doesn't cut it in the game that the question was originally asked
about.

Not stating this to anyone in particular, but as soon as you think that your
way to play a game like Champions is the "only right way to do it" you might
just need to go play with yourself.

And, while I've still got my soap box out of the closet, Hero or any other
game like Hero shouldn't be "BALANCED" it should be heavily weighted to _FUN
FUN FUN_ for everybody that is playing in it. People who aren't playing in
it should not really care. I would personally find it more helpful if
instead of replying to a poster that their proposal isn't balanced, why not
point out specifically what you have seen or think will result from their
proposal. In other words: Don't Berate, Educate.

Thanks for your time.

Alan

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com>
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:16:11 -0600
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>Ultra Boy had all the powers of Superboy(man), but at more powerful levels.
>He had "Flash" Vision instead of Heat Vision, which was hotter than the
>latter, and "Penetra" Vision, which was not blocked by lead. When he
turned
>on his invulnerability, while I doubt he was actually "more invulnerable"
>than Superboy, he also had no weaknesses to exploit. But he could only use
>one of these powers at a time, though I suppose he was probably a bit
>tougher than normal when using Super Strength, so these powers were a
>multipower with Ultra slots. Yes, I know everyone knows that last part,
but
>you must admit, the powers model the comics well on this point: you'd
>expect Ultra Boy, with the cheaper Multipower, to either do it better or
>have fewer disadvantages.


I seem to recall a story that used a certain type of radiation that affected
Ultra Boy in a similar way that Kryptonite affects SuperBlank. Supposedly
some relationship between the type of radiation and the radiation that was
present in the belly of the Space Whale that swallowed Jo Nah to turn him
into Ultra Boy.

On a slightly different subject, just how many of the old LSH puns can we as
a combined group remember. I can't remember any off the top of my head
except Jo Nah being swallowed by a Space Whale and Matter-Eater Lad coming
from the planet Bismol. Does anyone out there remember any others?

Alan

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 19:17:18 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls
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Anthony Jackson wrote:
>
> bobby farris writes:
>
> > My next question is a little harder. Under what circumstances would
> > you allow a person to buy stats in an EC? The problem I have always had
> > with stats in an EC is that it seems to be a cheap way to get high stats
> > with little cost.
> > However, I don't want to say that I would NEVER allow stats to be
> > placed in an EC, but can't think of any specific example to give. Can
> > anyone else think of any? Would allowing them in with the fact that they
> > don't count against figured characteristics be unbalancing?
>
> Slapping 'no figs' on (for free) makes STR and CON in ECs not horribly
> offensive, but for most other attributes it's still a bad thing.

If you have a read of the section talking about power frameworks, you
will see that placing characteristics in one automatically means no figured
stats.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 19:40:10 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
Subject: Re: Speedsters
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> DS> This doesn't make sense to me. It sounds like you created a
> DS> specialized martial artist who can run fast, but his SPD is so low that
> DS> actions will be happening around him while he waits for his phase to
> DS> come up...the opposite of my conception of a speedster. I can't see
> DS> having a speedster with a SPD less than 6 (7 or 8 is better).
>
> You are thinking in segments, not turns. Take a philosophical step back,
> and consider the 12-segment turn as the basic unit of Champions combat
> time. Within a turn, a speedster should be able to deck four or five
> generic thugs.

That's it? Only 4-5 thugs/12 seconds?

I think we have a major philosophical disagreement on what a speedster is
here.
I'd say a speedster should be able to get a good 30-40 thugs/12 seconds, but
still
only the same number of Supers as any other super can.

That at least, is the DC style Speedster - ultra fast reaction time.
The Marvel Speedster is what you seem to go for -- ultra fast movement.

Two very diferent concepts, both get labeled together alot in these
discussions. I think our original
poster was looking for the DC style.

My character Tao Kaui is the closest I've come in under 300 points to
building a DC speedster,
I used a speed 9 and all autofire or area effect attacks. The number of dice in
the attacks is low however.
Each attack is enough to take out the average thug, but will only do minor
damage on a super. I can
pull off upwards of 30-72 of these attacks/turn (depending on how much I make my
autofire by, or closely
lined up my victims are in the area effect). One hit will get the average man,
but not do much to a super.
Vs. a Super opponant I have to concentrate the full of my efforts on them,
and it takes me about as long
as it does for any super of my point level to take out a super of the point
level of my victim.
Providing they don't hit me first, Tao Kuai is what you'd call a glass jaw
PC, but I make up for that in high
DCV (just have to watch those area effect attacks :) ).

I'm still working on getting the full effect of a character like Impulse (DC
comics) into Champions though,
but I'm getting close.


Rook
__
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Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 19:46:56 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
Subject: Re: Autofire and Trigger
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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> >> Okay guys ... how would you rule on this example ...
> >>
> >> AttackmeMan has a PD AID with a trigger which goes off each time he is
> >> hit by an attack. The trigger is then automatically reset for the next
> >> attack which hits him. Can you see where this is going yet ???



> Just offhand I'd say that the Aid only goes off once. For one thing, I
> see nothing in the writeup of Trigger that allows it to automatically reset
> itself. For another, even if it did, I'd have a problem with it working
> more than once in the Phase of the character who owns it.

The bigger question here is this:

Does the aid add to PD before or after the damage from the attack is done?

After all, it adds before, I can see this construct:

Teleport X" trigger: whenever hit by an attack, which would make you immune to
attacks unless
the trigger happens after damage application.



--
Rook
__
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Hunt Me!
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:51:30 -0800
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On Friday, February 27, 1998 11:39 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote:


<snip>
> Along a similar line, a while ago I was trying to work out a Power
(in a
>magical item) that would send a telepathic message to all of a
character's
>Hunters telling them exactly where he is. Does anyone have any
suggestions
>of how to do this in mechanical terms? (Other than "plot device,"
please.)


That's easy. Mind Scan allows the target of the Mind Scan to know
where you are, by default. Thus, you design the power as Mind Scan,
Only for enemies to sense you and your location, 0 END, Always On. If
you want the power to tell people exactly where you are, you buy lots
of dice, otherwise, as many as necessary for the effect desired.

Filksinger

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:04:53 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: RE: Ultra Slots
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>As a GM, I am pretty strict on multipowers. They have to make sense. No
>Swiss army knife of Powers Multipowers are allowed in my game.

But what does that leave Swiss Army Knife Man with? :-) Which brings up the
reasonable question: is the character concept of definitely _not_ having a
specific concept valid? Introducing Hodgepodge, the man whose powers fit
whatever his latest lies about his origins are!

"And that's when the CIA gave me this cybernetic arm."
"But Hodgepodge, you don't have a cybernetic arm..."
"Sure I do. See?"
"Well I'll be darned. You do have a cybernetic arm!"
"Of course, that was just before those aliens gave me the powers of flight..."
"But Hodgepodge, I've never seen you fly..."
"Up, up, and awayyyy!"

Heh. Actually, this sounds like a hell of a lot of fun. Probably a Cosmic
VPP, with the limitation: Must tell outrageous origin lie to manifest power
(-1/4). Ever had a player in a campaign that was 'nothing' but a VPP?
Hodgepodge, the man whos lies are stronger than reality!!!



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

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Subject: Re: Other Great Presence Attacks
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-6,10-12
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 23:52:41 EST
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> Batman, of course, is the definitive Presence Attacker. His
>most effective attacks rarely involve any words at all -
>his caped form leaping from the darkness or even his shadow
>falling in front of a criminal is enough to paralyze his
>opponents with fear.

Jumping publishers, I've got a Captain America where Cap doesn't have the
shield in reach and a robber has the drop on him with a gun, close enough
that there's no range modifiers. Cap holds out his hand and tells the
robber to hand the gun over, and the robber does.

Leah

_____________________________________________________________________
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Subject: Re: Pre Attacks
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From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 23:52:41 EST
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>> > Forgive the tangent, but how about votes for the best
>> > "Psych Lim: Overconfidence" scene in the movies?
>> >

"The Phantom", when Xander Drax and his buddies (and hostage) have been
marched at gunpoint into the HQ of the Singh (sp?) Brotherhood and try to
intimidate them into turning over the third skull. Especially
whats-his-name the gangster -- I can't remember the exact phrasing
offhand, but it was on the lines of "Hand it over or sleep with the
fishes".

Leah

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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 01:04:50 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Autofire and Trigger
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> Does the aid add to PD before or after the damage from the attack is done?
>
> After all, it adds before, I can see this construct:
>
> Teleport X" trigger: whenever hit by an attack, which would make you immune to
> attacks unless
> the trigger happens after damage application.

Nope, it hits after. It is triggered by the attack hitting. You
could do something like T-Port, triggered by dodging which would make you
immune to a first attack of the phase. However, you could abort to a
T-Port anyway, so . . .


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:13:22 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Autofire and Trigger
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To: champ-l@omg.org

>
> Nope, it hits after. It is triggered by the attack hitting. You
> could do something like T-Port, triggered by dodging which would make you
> immune to a first attack of the phase. However, you could abort to a
> T-Port anyway, so . . .

I didn't think you could abort to movement powers. That's why Dive for
Cover is a manuver.



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Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net>
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:14:57 +0000
Subject: Re: Presence Attacks
Priority: normal
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> At the Superhero level I'm used to seeing at least one PRE attack
> per session. At the Heroic level almost none.

It all depends on how you use the Pre Attack. If you want to use it
to absolutely overwhelm someone in a Heroic Level campaign, chances
are you're not going to be able to because your PRE is unlikely to
exceed NCM, and you won't have the dice to have much of an effect.

However, I often use PRE attacks to allow a player to help convince
an NPC to do something when Persuasion alone isn't enuf, or to have a
general effect on people while performing some task that encourages
them to take actions along lines the players desire. For example,
one player I know is a very sexual animal, and is highly skilled at
seduction, and at using her physical characteristics to get what she
wants. She's an accomplished dancer, and experienced at the art of
the strip tease. So she makes rolls on her skills of PS: Dancing
and PS: Ecydisiast (Strip Dancing)- for every 2 she makes her roll
by, she gets 1 extra die for her PRE attack, which then has a chance
of being effective (and is usually devastating).

Amy

----------------
Theala Sildorian
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Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

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Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net>
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:30:23 +0000
Subject: Re: GMing tips :Accessories
Priority: normal
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> GM Screens: Over the years, I've made several sets of GM screens to
> my own satisfaction. I never cared much for the ones Hero sold. I
> also vary some segments of my screens according to the genre and
> campaign; I've just added a sea combat screen for my pirate
> campaign.
>

I seldom have anything to hide from my players, so I don't bother
with a GM screen. GM screen's seperate the GM from the players, and
can create a "me" vs "players" attitude. If I have handouts or notes
I don't want the players to see, I keep them in a closed folder until
I need them (seldom, as my adventures are almost never written out
before hand anymore).

> Props: I like to give the players a prop document now and then. Just
> recently I gave the newly recruited pirates the Articles of Piracy
> of their ship, the Laughing Fiend - I had the players who'd bought
> literacy read it aloud for the rest. In the past I've written up
> letters, a TV commercial script, and of course various maps in
> fantasy games. I've also used videotapes to illustrate how something
> looks now and then.

I like props--they make the game feel more real. One GM I played
with an a sci fi game blatently stole ideas he liked from his
favorite TV shows--this allowed him to use things like ship models,
deck plans from books, toys based on the show, as props. For
example, when I demonstrated what my technomage was doing once, I
pulled out a STNG tricorder, as her laptop computer. I've also
written up letters, a will for a major NPC who died, maps for both
fantasy and sci fi games, forensic reports on an NPC who was murdered
(that was fun), and a pyschiatric report on a villain the PCs were
chasing.

>
> Other handouts: It adds depth to a game when I give reference
> sheets and other handouts to players, including knowledge that their
> characters will have but which the players won't necessariliy
> remember if the GM only mentions it in passing. I tend to hand out
> timelines for the campaign world, brief summaries of countries,
> factions, etc., and whatever else seems relevent to the campaign.
> For my pirate game, I've worked up two packets of nautical
> terminology and pirate vocabulary, which is adding lots of fun to
> the characters' dialogue.

<nod> I do this as well. I've also got handouts one GM gave me
which summarize combat rules, the vehicle rules from E4E, the Horror
Hero shock rules, calenders of our various worlds, etc. I bought a
Korean Phrase book for my martial artist, and have bought lots of
sourcebooks from various games just to find information to have my
characters do more creative things (for example, I bought WW's Mage
when I was running a technomage, the Colonial Marines Technical
Manuel when I was playing in a sci fi game set in that universe, and
so on). I've got an extensive library on Celtic magic not because
I'm a New Ager, but because I like the feel of the culture for my
fantasy universe, and the stuff makes good source material.

>
> The Quote Sheet:

[snip]

My technomage character for the longest time kept an extensive diary
on things that happened in the campaign--this was my way of taking
notes on campaign happenings and issues--even those she wasn't
directly involved in were addressed as "second hand" issues. I would
bring a copy to each game of the previous journal entry for everyone
to read. Since it was written purely from Justina's point of view,
it was peppered with her personal opinions--Justina has a very sharp
wit, and her observations of the other characters often cut to the
bone. Some players would say, "That's not the way it happened!"
whereupon I would reply, "That's how Justina sees things as
happening--that's her personal perspective. If you think things
happened differently,write a rebuttal, or keep your own journal"

It was fun.

Amy

----------------
Theala Sildorian
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net>
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:35:31 +0000
Subject: Re: Enforcing four color
Priority: normal
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> Hello;
>
> This is less advice on how to deal with players as it is a request
> on how to control oneself as GM. I have a four color setting
> (featured on my website for the curious, see the sig). What I'm
> noticing is I keep 'slipping' back to more serious or deadly topics.

It all depends on what your players like and what kind of effect you
want to acheive. Serious topics allow for levels of complexity that
strictly four color campaigns don't. If you like stories based
around "here's the bad guy, this is what he does, lets go beat him
up" then you're going to run out of ideas quickly. Any type of
serial campaign approach demands that the players be allowed to
explore issues of morality, law, discrimination, love, sex,
hate--simple words which have complex meanings that everyone has a
different opinion on.

I don't try to enforce "four color" in my story lines. I DO try to
enforce some four color in how the players react to the issues at
hand. For example, I have a house rule--if you act against your
Psych Lims (alot of my players have CAK), then you get a die of
unluck (I actually hand the player a die). I haven't had to enforce
this rule--the players, if told "this is a four color setting, so
dark colored things like torturing bad guys is right out", generally
come through and act in a four color way.

Amy

----------------
Theala Sildorian
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: "Salmon, David W" <dsalmon@crt.xerox.com>
Subject: follow-up: Autofire and trigger
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 05:13:29 PST
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

Some things to clear up the issue...

ORIGINAL QUESTION:
>AttackmeMan has a PD AID with a trigger which goes off each time he is
hit by an attack. The trigger is then automatically reset for the next
attack >which hits him. Can you see where this is going yet ???
BadguyintightsMan hits AttackmeMan with an Autofire RKA vs PD and hits
him 3 out of five >times. Now, does AttackmeMan get to roll his AID 3
times or one?? The question comes up because only one attack roll was
made but he was >physically hit 3 times. I don't want to risk restarting
the "Great Linked" debate, but if you reply, does your response take
into account linked powers?? >Thanks in advance for your great wisdom.

AttackmeMan's power would allow him to be tougher to damage the NEXT
time he is hit.

I agree that the AID would go off AFTER the damage was applied.

Linked comes into play if AttackmeMan is hit with, for example, a 10d6
EB vs PD with a linked 2d6 RKA (a very big grenade w/shrapnel). Again,
one attack roll but 2 powers he is being hit with.

I had thought I read somewhere that you could set up a trigger (not
having the book in front of me when I wrote the original note) so that
it would automatically reset itself after it went off. If there is no
rule then I guess this would be an advantage ... any ideas as to what
the plus (+) would be ??? +1/2, +1 ???

oh yeah BTW ... how did this get turned into a T-Port discussion .... ?


...Dave S.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
Subject: Re: "Stupid Tricks"
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 05:18:46 -0800
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To: champ-l@omg.org

>One "stupid EP trick" I've seen frequently is where two EPs keep their
>blasts going at each other at a Constant level, but the two blasts hit
>each other at the mid-point and cancel each other out. Often, the
>stronger one gradually pushes to meeting point closer to the weaker
>one. However, this stunt, which I refer to as Sumo Blasting, has
>never been written up in Hero terms as far as I'm aware.

Sure it's been written up. It's Missile Deflection, costs END.

Or, if you want a more detailed version, here's something from the list
from almost ten years ago. I couldn't find the original author's name,
though. Thanks, whoever you are.

Energy Block
------------
An Energy Block is a special maneuver used only with ranged attacks.

An Energy Block may only be used when the attacks have similar or
dissimilar special effects.
An Energy Block may only be performed when both attacks do Body.
An Energy Block may only be performed if both attacks affect the same
defense (PD, ED, Power Defense, etc.)
An Energy Block may only be used if both attacks are the same power
with the same advantages.

If a character wanted a more powerful Energy Block, he could "Link"
Missile Deflection to his Energy Blast (or whatever).

_Setting Up an Energy Block_

When an Energy Block is declared, and all the necessary conditions
have been met, complete steps 1 through 5 below.

1) Assume Block succeeds.
2) Determine midpoint between character A and character B.
3) Each character rolls to hit with all normal modifiers.
4) Calculate how much each character could have spared
and still hit. These scores, A and B may be negative.
5) Count (A - B)/2 hexes towards B or (B - A)/2 hexes
towards A away from mid hex. This is the initial
contact hex.

_Maintaining an Energy Block_

After an Energy Block has been set up, steps 6 through 7 must be
completed each phase by each character to maintain the Block.

6) Each character acts in accordance with normal SPD and
DEX. The GM may declare that if both characters act
in the same segment that they act at the same time.
7) Each character pays normal END and rolls normal
damage. Each character must use at least 3 DCs. A
character may chose to use less than his full DCs; he
may later add DCs, provided that his phase is not
over and the total DCs does not exceed his maximum in
one phase.
8) The contact hex moves 1"/2 BODY rolled away from the
attacker.

_Options During an Energy Block_

During an Energy Block, each character has a limited number of extra
things he can do besides attack. The following are the options that
the character may chose without breaking the Energy Block.

A) DEX may be lowered; SPD may not.
B) SPD, DEX, or DCs may be pushed.
C) The attack may be used at less than full DCs, as long as at
least 3 DCs are used per phase.
D) Movement may not be pushed. Each character may make a 1/2 move,
each phase, in line with the Block (either forwards or
backwards). For each hex that the character moves, the contact
hex moves 1/2 hex in the same direction.
E) Characters engaged in an Energy Block are at full DCV with
respect to each other. They may use 1/2 DCV vs. other opponents
without breaking the Block.

_Breaking an Energy Block_

There are several ways to break an Energy Block. When either character
does any of the following things, the Block is broken.

A) Win. This is the opposite of Losing.
B) Lose. If at any point the contact hex enters the hex one of the
characters is in, that character has lost. He then takes damage
equal to 1/2 the DCs of the last attack made by the winner plus
1DC/hex that the contact hex moved past the loser, subject to a
maximum equal to the number of DCs of the winner's last attack.
C) Dive for cover. The other character's last attack proceeds
unimpeded, presumably striking whatever was behind the
character who dove for cover.
D) Use full DCV vs. some other character's attack. This has the same
result diving for cover.


Dave Mattingly
http://www.geocities.com/soho/5953

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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Autofire and Trigger
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 05:22:23 -0800
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> AttackmeMan has a PD AID with a trigger which goes off each time he is
> hit by an attack. The trigger is then automatically reset for the next
> attack which hits him.

It sounds to me like what you really want is an Absorb, not a Triggered
Aid.

Here's a little about that from my Adjustment Powers article at
http://www.geocities.com/area51/cavern/1905/haym08.html:

Instead of buying a large absorb that can either absorb one big attack
or several smaller attacks
throughout a phase, autofire absorb can handle several small attacks.
Or, a larger absorb with a -1/2
limitation could only absorb half its dice per attack.

Example: Bounceback has a 6d6 Absorb from physical damage into his
superleap. For the same
cost, his teammate Absorbo the Great has a 3d6 autofire absorb with
increased maximum from
energy damage into his energy blast. Bounceback is hit by a 12d6 punch
for 14 body, and absorbs
all 14 points. Absorbo is hit by a 12d6 blaster rifle, and can only
absorb 11 of the 14 points. Absorbo
lost out. The next day, Bounceback is ambushed by 6 agents, and four of
them shoot him with
rubber bullets for 5, 7, 8, and 9 body. Bounceback rolls his 6d6, and
can only absorb 23 of the 29
points in that phase. Absorbo is shot and hit by with blaster rifles
from 3 agents twice (since they
have a higher speed that he does), for 5, 5, 6, 7, 9, and 9 body.
Absorbo absorbs 5, 5, 6, 9, and 9
points (only five shots can be absorbed per Absorbo's phase unless the
autofire was bought up
higher), and gains his maximum of 30 points.

Dave Mattingly
mattingly@bigfoot.com

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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:29:18 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Autofire and Trigger
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On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> The Trigger should *definitely* happen *after* the damage is applied,
> especially with it being only a +1/4 Advantage. If a Power can be
> Triggered before damage from an attack which sets it off, the Advantage
> would have to be a whole shot bigger -- like +1 or so.

In my time travel campaign I encourage my players not to view resistant
defenses as another stat, and instead to come up with other sorts of
defenses. One, the sorcerress and illusionist Mika Arguin, has a defense
set which relates to this discussion. She has the ability to assume
wraithform (desolidification), although no one can really tell that she's
insubstantial just by looking (invisible power effects). Furthermore,
although she an perform this effect at will, it happens automatically if
she can sense an incoming attack (trigger: incoming attack)--that is, when
the attack is declared, before we know if it would hit. However, it drains
her mana more than using the power normally (7 END out of a 50 pool/day),
and it gets more sluggish if used frequently (ablative). To make matters
more interesting, she has the ability to create illusions (Images), and
one of her favorite spells is Mirror Image--up to two illusions of
herself. she can make them appear to the left or to the right of her, or
on both sides. Even if you thought you knew which image was the real Mika,
you might not be so sure after your first one or two attacks passed
through her (with her triggered Desolid, it looks exactly the same as if
it were passing through the illusions!) then you might try working on the
images... encountering frustration...

And of course, it makes the fact that she has to concentrate to maintain
spell effects work. The 1/2 DCV can be dealt with.

It's a classy defense, balanced by the factors above, and by the fact that
she can't have resistant defenses, and other restrictions. It's not a
Champions game, so the focus isn't combat.

Oh, and the the frustrated original poster: The trigger should only
activate once per (user's) phase. Trigger needs to be controlled by the GM
carefully, and yes I do believe assigning higher advantage costs to
"better" triggers is an acceptable way to balance them, although you could
find other ways as well. The Final Fantasy Tactics "Autopotion" triggered
effect comes to mind as pretty powerful--in FFT, if you don't know, every
human character can set a "reaction ability," which is triggered by being
attacked. "Autopotion" has the character automatically drink a healing
potion. And if you keep only the best potions around... Very nasty.
Triggered healing aid. 0 END. Trigger by taking damage.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Autofire and Trigger
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 06:50:02 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> Rook wrote:
> > The bigger question here is this:
> >
> > Does the aid add to PD before or after the damage from the attack is done?
> >
> > After all, it adds before, I can see this construct:
> >
> > Teleport X" trigger: whenever hit by an attack, which would make you
> > immune to attacks unless
> > the trigger happens after damage application.
>
> As for the teleport, the trigger is being hit. Having been hit, you
> teleport taking the damage at the same time, which could leave you stunned,
> knocked out or dying somewhere else. It really doesn't matter whether the
> damage is taken in the target area or the safe house.

Actually, the effect could be worded like this:

"T-Port triggered by any incoming attack that is destined to hit, triggering
just before contact."

Special effects wise it's legal. GURPS even has a power for it (Blink).
But then in GURPS defense is done as a 3d6 roll vs a target number that is only
rolled if an attack makes it to hit roll. GURPS' Blink basically substitutes
it's skill level for what would have been that target number. So in GURPS this
is not an imbalancing effect.
This one first came up in my 1990 game when I tried to convert a GURPS
T-Porting Super in Hero. I found the effect to either be totally useless or
completly imbalancing in Hero, depending on how trigger gets interpreted.

So:

5TH EDITION STAFF TYPES:
Please state how trigger effects relate to incoming attacks.
In Other Words; can a trigger go off mid-way through the resolution of
some other game effect, thereby stopping said other effect from completing,
or modifying how said other effect completes?


As for the actual character behind it, to simplify the issue I took
a step back from mechanics and looked at my special effect again. The effect
was that I avoid getting hit by tporting a short distance. So I just bought
5 levels of DCV with an activiation roll. The effect was never supposed to let
me teleport far enough to avoid an area attack, so that worked fine.

The actual character is on my website at:

http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/KITTY.htm

Back to Trigger vs. attacks, which is what both the T-port and the Aid
construct are really about; I think it's best to make sure that the attack
completly resolves before the trigger sets off. However, making such a ruling
stops many valid special effects, which will then need to be addressed in less
imbalancing ways.


Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 06:50:57 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Autofire and Trigger
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At 07:46 PM 3/4/1998 -0800, Rook wrote:
>> >> Okay guys ... how would you rule on this example ...
>> >>
>> >> AttackmeMan has a PD AID with a trigger which goes off each time he is
>> >> hit by an attack. The trigger is then automatically reset for the next
>> >> attack which hits him. Can you see where this is going yet ???
>
>> Just offhand I'd say that the Aid only goes off once. For one thing, I
>> see nothing in the writeup of Trigger that allows it to automatically reset
>> itself. For another, even if it did, I'd have a problem with it working
>> more than once in the Phase of the character who owns it.
>
> The bigger question here is this:
>
>Does the aid add to PD before or after the damage from the attack is done?
>
>After all, it adds before, I can see this construct:
>
>Teleport X" trigger: whenever hit by an attack, which would make you
immune to
>attacks unless the trigger happens after damage application.

The Trigger should *definitely* happen *after* the damage is applied,
especially with it being only a +1/4 Advantage. If a Power can be
Triggered before damage from an attack which sets it off, the Advantage
would have to be a whole shot bigger -- like +1 or so.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 06:53:29 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Autofire and Trigger
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 07:55 AM 3/5/1998 -0800, Robert A. West wrote:
>Salmon, David W wrote:
>>
>> > Okay guys ... how would you rule on this example ...
>> >
>> > AttackmeMan has a PD AID with a trigger which goes off each time he is
>> > hit by an attack.
>
>Wrong power. Buy Absorption instead. This power is designed to do
>exactly what you want, and has explicit rules to handle multiple attacks
>in one phase (autofire or multiple attackers makes no difference).

Not necessarily. Absorption would increase PD in proportion to the
attack; Aid will increase PD by the same amount no matter how big or how
small the attack is that hits AttackmeMan.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:55:18 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Ultra Slots
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade
> One of my early characters was specifically loaded to have any two of
his Multipower slots (all fixed) running at once. Usually that meant
Flight and Density, Force Field and Energy Blast, or Force Field and STR.
On the one occasion that the team was in really deep doo-doo he went to
both Density and STR. (They were 60 point slots, so total STR was 150 with
his base of 30 -- but his PD and ED were down to 15 each even with the DI
bonus, so it had *better* work! Fortunately, it did.)<

Does this mean you had 120 points in your Multipower reserve? If so, then
this example probably wouldn't be allowed in many games.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 08:00:35 -0700
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
Subject: Re: Other Great Presence Attacks
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Leah L Watts wrote:
>
> > Batman, of course, is the definitive Presence Attacker. His
> >most effective attacks rarely involve any words at all -
> >his caped form leaping from the darkness or even his shadow
> >falling in front of a criminal is enough to paralyze his
> >opponents with fear.
>
> Jumping publishers, I've got a Captain America where Cap doesn't have the
> shield in reach and a robber has the drop on him with a gun, close enough
> that there's no range modifiers. Cap holds out his hand and tells the
> robber to hand the gun over, and the robber does.
>
> Leah
>
This reminds me of one of the best precence attacks (due to reputation)
that I have read in a book. Dorsai by Gordon R Dickson (or one of the
later books not sure).

For those unfamiliar the Dorsai are a warrior culture with a reputation
for indefeatablility. Science Fiction setting.

The scene, near the end of a battle inside a building. Three Dorsai are
walking looking for the enemy and a way out. They hear a noise and open
a door. There is a mercenary in a really well defended position, in a
machine gun nest. He's looking over his sights at the three wounded (one
with a leg in a splint) unarmed men. One of them looks him strait in the
eye and say "Don't be a fool, we are all Dorsai." The machine gun guy
gives up.

--

Not only does the English Language borrow words from other languages,
it sometimes chases them down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and
goes through their pockets. -- Eddy Peters

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:01:00 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Are Mentalists boring?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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My experience with Mentalists has not been great, to say the least. I
really haven't played one, but I've attempted to make a few characters and
I've been in groups that involved Mentalists. In those cases, the
Mentalists would either use Ego Attacks (which to me is just an EB which is
easier to hit with, since most people have a lower ECV than DCV), or else
they would give the illusion that the target was on fire, and roll high
enough that they would take damage from the illusion. This talk about
"stupid tricks" has gotten me thinking that maybe I really need a list of
these (or buy The Ultimate Mentalist) in order to appreciate the Mentalist
"class". I'm reminded of Psylocke from the X-Men...I remember when she was
first introduced, she was a vanilla flavored mentalist who was fairly
unremarkable. I guess Marvel found her boring as well, because they turned
her into a martial artist with psychic knives...really a whole different
character than the original design. I think my problem is that most
Mentalists I've seen in Champions have been of the "vanilla" variety, and
seems like they don't have a lot of options open to them except to mind
control the Brick and make him go after his buddies (okay, that's an
exaggeration).

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 08:10:25 -0700
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
Subject: Re: Pre Attacks
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>
> >> > Forgive the tangent, but how about votes for the best
> >> > "Psych Lim: Overconfidence" scene in the movies?
>

I still can't believe that no one has yet mentioned a favorite of this
list.....
Jack Burton. It's as full of overconfidence scenes as the Princess
bride is for Pre Attacks.

"Call the police Jack, you're not a one man army" - "Cops got better
thing to do than get killed."

"OK, you people sit tight, hold the fort and keep the home fires
burning, and if we're not back by dawn, call the president"

"Go off and rule the universe from beyond the grave" - "Indeed!" - " or
check into a psycho ward witchever comes first, huh? ... two thousand
years and you can't find one broad to fit the bill, come on Dave you
must be doing something seriously wrong here."


--

Not only does the English Language borrow words from other languages,
it sometimes chases them down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and
goes through their pockets. -- Eddy Peters

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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:14:28 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Combat (Re: Autofire and Trigger)
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On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Brian Wong wrote:

> > she can't have resistant defenses, and other restrictions. It's not a
> > Champions game, so the focus isn't combat.
> Not all Champions games focus on combat. :)
> In the 7 games of Champions we've had so far with my new group, there
> were two fights.

I stand corrected!

Not all superhero games are the same! ;)

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:22:47 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Speedsters
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Stainless Steel Rat
>You are thinking in segments, not turns. Take a philosophical step back,
and consider the 12-segment turn as the basic unit of Champions combat
time. Within a turn, a speedster should be able to deck four or five
generic thugs. You can give him a Speed 8, and spend each of his actions
performing half-moves and attacks against each of the five thugs. Or you
can give him a Speed 4, and spend those 40 points on things like more
running and OCV skill levels, and spend those 4 actions performing multiple
move by or sweep maneuvers.<

Ah, now I'm beginning to see your point, and I think I might like your
method better. I don't have any books with me to verify, but I think that
the majority of the Speedsters that Hero has published use the "high SPD"
method.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:22:48 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: "Stupid Tricks"
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade
> As for Energy Projectors, Mr Fair, you have a point regarding the wide
variability of their powers. To my mind, the best things that a book like
The Ultimate Energy Projector could do is define the properties of each
type of energy commonly used by comic-book Energy Projectors, boil them
down to Advantages and Limitations (ideally no more than one of each for
each energy type), give a quantification such as Len Carpenter posted to
the list a couple of months ago (at my request, thanks Len), and maybe go
into a few common EP schticks like Personal Immunity.<

I couldn't agree more. I seem to be in the minority among Champs players
in that I don't have a great interest in the workings of physics and am
just not able to get into a big discussion about why a character with fire
powers would be able to fly (someone recently gave a "physics" explanation
about superheated air and updrafts which is what prompted this example).
It seems that physics questions seem to pop up quite a bit in a supers game
(especially with Champs and special effects interpretations), so I'd love
something that gave some guidelines for us laypeople.

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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:28:05 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Pre Attacks
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On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Curtis Gibson wrote:

> I still can't believe that no one has yet mentioned a favorite of this
> list.....

> Jack Burton. It's as full of overconfidence scenes as the Princess
> bride is for Pre Attacks.
>
> "Call the police Jack, you're not a one man army" - "Cops got better
> thing to do than get killed."
>
> "OK, you people sit tight, hold the fort and keep the home fires
> burning, and if we're not back by dawn, call the president"
>
> "Go off and rule the universe from beyond the grave" - "Indeed!" - " or
> check into a psycho ward witchever comes first, huh? ... two thousand
> years and you can't find one broad to fit the bill, come on Dave you
> must be doing something seriously wrong here."

And how can we forget:

"You just listen to the words of the old Porkchop Express and take his
advice on a dark and stormy night when the lightning is crashing, the
thunder rolling and the rain falling in sheets as thick as lead. Just
remember what Jack Burton does when the earth quakes, the poison arrows
fall from the sky and the pillars of heaven shake. Yeah, Jack Burton
looks that big old storm right in the eye and he says: 'Gimme your best
shot pal, I can take it!'."

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:50:30 -0500
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Pre Attacks
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>
> >> > Forgive the tangent, but how about votes for the best
> >> > "Psych Lim: Overconfidence" scene in the movies?
>

I still can't believe that no one has yet mentioned a favorite of this
list.....
Jack Burton. It's as full of overconfidence scenes as the Princess
bride is for Pre Attacks.


***************************

I , too, was surprised BTILC hadn't come up yet. Speaking of
Presence Attacks, Jack has the distinction of having been knocked
unconscious by his own Presence Attack. Sometime that bonus for
"Exhibiting Power" (firing his gun into the ceiling) just isn't
worth it.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 07:55:26 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Autofire and Trigger
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To: champ-l@omg.org

Salmon, David W wrote:
>
> > Okay guys ... how would you rule on this example ...
> >
> > AttackmeMan has a PD AID with a trigger which goes off each time he is
> > hit by an attack.

Wrong power. Buy Absorption instead. This power is designed to do
exactly what you want, and has explicit rules to handle multiple attacks
in one phase (autofire or multiple attackers makes no difference).


> > The trigger is then automatically reset for the next
> > attack which hits him. Can you see where this is going yet ???

Well, I don't see how the trigger is "automatically reset". Setting a
trigger normally requires the same kind of action as running the power
without the trigger. In this case, I would rule that it requires a
half-phase and ends the phase, since an Aid can be used as an "attack".
Others might rule it a zero-phase, since the Aid is being used on oneself
and does not constitute an attack, but in any event it requires an
action, which the character does not always have.

If the triggered power has charges, there is no need to "reset" the
trigger. Each trip of the trigger uses one charge, and there is no
action required.

> > BadguyintightsMan hits AttackmeMan with an Autofire RKA vs PD and hits
> > him 3 out of five times. Now, does AttackmeMan get to roll his AID 3
> > times or one??

If you rewrite the power using Absorption, the answer is, "No, but if the
Absorption roll exceeds the damage done by the first hit, the unused
portion is available for any further attacks before AttackMeMan gets his
next action, at which point he is entitled to a new Absorption roll."

If you insist on using the power described, then the power cannot be
reset until AttackMeMan's next action phase, so the answer is, "No!"

If you use the power described with charges, then it depends how the
player intended the trigger: you could do it either way, and each might
have its advantages.

--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:00:49 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Are Mentalists boring?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

>This talk about
>"stupid tricks" has gotten me thinking that maybe I really need a list of
>these (or buy The Ultimate Mentalist) in order to appreciate the Mentalist
>"class".

Mental illusion is IMHO the best mentalist power. It's a whole lot easier to
make small changes that elicit a response than it is to mind control someone
for the desired response.

TUM isn't as bad a book as some folks around here would have you believe.
Yes, it's got questionable bits in it, but it does provide a lot of ideas.
I'd recommned buying it.

>I'm reminded of Psylocke from the X-Men...I remember when she was
>first introduced, she was a vanilla flavored mentalist who was fairly
>unremarkable. I guess Marvel found her boring as well, because they turned
>her into a martial artist with psychic knives...really a whole different
>character than the original design.

I for one hated the change. No, let me be more precise. I liked the old
Psylocke. I liked the newer Psylocke too, but that's just the ninja-babe
phenomena talking. But I didn't like the fact that they had to sacrifice the
old Psylocke to get the new one. Clear enough?

Yes, Psylocke was a 'vanilla' telepath, but powers don't make an interesting
character. The 'new' Psylocke's personality was so cookie cutter it wasn't
funny (whereas the old's powers were of the cookie cutter variety). Mostly
I'm mad at Marvel for completely dropping the ball on various Psylocke
threads - killing off Cypher (and thus wiping out one of the best potential
romances in the Marvel line), getting rid of Mojo's 'gift'
cybereyes...<sigh>...they never even explained where they got the armor, did
they?

> I think my problem is that most
>Mentalists I've seen in Champions have been of the "vanilla" variety, and
>seems like they don't have a lot of options open to them except to mind
>control the Brick and make him go after his buddies (okay, that's an
>exaggeration).

That's b/c an effective mentalist isn't cheap - you usually don't have the
points left over for 'flavor' after you've grabbed a decent DEX, EGO, SPD,
Mental Multipower, some armor/force field, etc. - not on 250 points. I've
always thought it takes 300 points for a satisfactory 'vanilla' mentalist.
Tack on 50-100 more points if you want some other flavor.

Champions of the North has some good examples of mentalists, but again
they're mostly vanilla with just a little spice. Ambrosia has some keen SFX
going. Minstrel has that magic lute. Oracle is almost pure vanilla. Ditto
Mentor, though he has a teensy gadget pool (all the gadgeteers in CotN have
piddly little gadget pools). Psion is a telepath/telekinetic, but that's
another vanilla concept. Reason is kinda cool, as he must orate throughout
his mental attacks, and is more than capable of out-fighting agents at the
very least. Aura is another vanilla mentalist with interesting SFX. Harpy is
both a mentalist and an energy projector. That's a lot of mentalists for
such a small book...must be something in the Canadian water...;-)

Anyway, my point being that once you've gotten ahold of the vanilla
mentalist powers (through various constructs), there's seldom a lot of room
for other stuff.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 08:00:52 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Are Mentalists boring?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 10:01 AM 3/5/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>My experience with Mentalists has not been great, to say the least. I
>really haven't played one, but I've attempted to make a few characters and
>I've been in groups that involved Mentalists. In those cases, the
>Mentalists would either use Ego Attacks (which to me is just an EB which is
>easier to hit with, since most people have a lower ECV than DCV), or else
>they would give the illusion that the target was on fire, and roll high
>enough that they would take damage from the illusion. This talk about
>"stupid tricks" has gotten me thinking that maybe I really need a list of
>these (or buy The Ultimate Mentalist) in order to appreciate the Mentalist
>"class". I'm reminded of Psylocke from the X-Men...I remember when she was
>first introduced, she was a vanilla flavored mentalist who was fairly
>unremarkable. I guess Marvel found her boring as well, because they turned
>her into a martial artist with psychic knives...really a whole different
>character than the original design. I think my problem is that most
>Mentalists I've seen in Champions have been of the "vanilla" variety, and
>seems like they don't have a lot of options open to them except to mind
>control the Brick and make him go after his buddies (okay, that's an
>exaggeration).

It takes a bit of creativity. After all, with mind powers, one has the
opportunity to play mind games with one's enemies.
This is true of Mental Illusions like no other power. With Mental
Illusions, I once convinced a werewolf that the guy standing next to him
was a huge mounted rack of beef (with predictable results). It can also be
used to set off some circumstance that sets off a foe's Berserk (which in
most cases is not to the foe's teammates' advantage). Setting up an
Illusion that the foe's most hated enemy is coming in to help the character
can cause the target to waste actions and energy; this can be even more
effective if the Illusion is that one of the target's teammates is really
one of his enemies.
Mind Control can go also a long way short of "Surrender!" In TUM, Steve
mentions the command, "Quick, gether up all the money before it gets
destroyed in the fight!" as something with a good chance to succeed that
will make the target a good target for other attacks. Personally, I like
the idea of "Go attack Character X," where Character X is a teammate's of
the mentalist who can easily take an attack by the target (either because
of particularly high CV or because of particularly high defenses). If
Character X is a skilled, high-DEX Martial Artist performing a Martial
Dodge and getting a DCV in the neighborhood of 15, and the Mentalist has
all of the enemies shooting at him, then everyone else on the team can get
ready for a turkey shoot.
Hitting a character with a Mental Paralysis just before a Haymaker hits
is another good setup. In fact, it borders on the cruel. Two characters
teaming up to do 18d6 to a target is much more effective than each of them
doing 9d6, or even 12d6 (given that the target's defenses will apply to
each of the 9d6 or 12d6 attacks, but only once to the 18d6).
The key, of course, is *teamwork.* Like in basketball, hockey, or
soccer, the real key isn't how many points the individual scores, it's how
many points the team scores. Some of the best players in the above sports
are good at covering teammates and setting up goal situations. You
generally don't hear about them, because they're not flashy and don't get
the big numbers in the recordbooks. But they're there, and the hottest
superstar player could never get a championship without them. In like
manner, a low-powered but well-coordinated hero team can flatten a
high-powered but poorly-coordinated villain team in under a minute.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:00:54 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Pre Attacks
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

> Jack Burton. It's as full of overconfidence scenes as the Princess
>bride is for Pre Attacks.

Jack, overconfident? Nah...Jack's just Larger-Than-Life (tm). All of his
actions can be reasoned if you look at it from the perspective that Jack
sees himself as some sort of big hero right from the start. Less a case of
'I can take him!' (overconfidence) than 'They won't get away with this while
I'm still standing!'.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Speedsters
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:08:57 -0800
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

As for whether to use high DEX/SPEED or power stunts, why not use both?
Here's my favorite PC speedster, The Flash.

The Flash

10 STR
30 DEX
13 CON 6
11 BOD 2
14 INT 4
14 EGO 8
13 PRE 3
10 COM
6 PD 4
6 ED 3
8 SPD
12 REC 14
36 END 5
23 STN

15 Secret ID: Clark Parker
10 Rival Reporter: Lois Watson
10 Nearsighted (infrequent, great)
5 Allergies (infrequent, slight)
10 Large Appetite (frequent, slight)
10 H: Senator 8- (less powerful, NCI)
10 H: Mirror Man 8- (as powerful)
10 H: Copy Cat 8- (as powerful)
10 H: Dr. Oddity (as powerful)
10 DNPC Friends 8-
15 Code Versus Killing (common, moderate)
10 Snoop (very common, moderate)
15 Protective of Innocents (uncommon, strong)
10 Overconfident (common, strong)

Chars: 49
Powers: 176
Skills: 25
Total: 250
Base: 100
Disads: 150

Powers END
30 Superspeed EC
30a +20 DEX (no figured chars -0)
30b +6 SPD
30c +20" Running @ 0 END

6 Regeneration 1/Hour
5 +10 STUN (only when unconscious -1)

30 Superspeed Multipower
1u 7" Flight (costs 3x END) -- whirring eggbeater motions with legs
to create a small vortex which defies gravity
1u 16x NCM Running {1200 mph}
1u +15" Swimming
1u +15" Leap
1u Clinging at +15 STR
1u +5d6 Hand Attack -- superspeed punch
1u +15 STR -- doing in one instant what would normally take a
minute
1u 1d6-1 RKA Autofire (needs any small objects) -- tossing pennies
or rocks or bullets at bullet speed
1u +3 DCV (must be aware of attack) -- instant dodge
1u +15 PD (must be aware of attack) -- rolling with the blow,
blocking the punch, etc.
1u +7 DEF Force Field (must be aware of attack) -- blocking the
attack with a manhole cover, etc.
1u Missile Deflection: Bullets -- normally catches them and can
throw them back later
1u Sight Images (only of Self); and Instant Change to costume
1u 10 STR TK AE 1 Hex -- whirlwind effect
1u CE: 1 Hex Any superspeed effect -- can clean a room, sign a
stack of papers, etc.

Skills Roll
2 PS: Journalist 11-
3 Speed Reading
1 Spanish
1 Perk: Press Pass
2 Contact: The Press 11-
2 K: News 11-
2 K: Supers 11-
1 Bureaucratics 8-
3 Streetwise 12-
3 Conversation 12-
3 Acting 12-
3 Disguise 11-
3 Shadowing 11-
-4 Reporter Package

Background: Back in the '50s, a small green meteor landed in Kansas. It
was kept as a museum piece for years, but it wasn't until the recent
discovery of microscopic life on Mars that this rock was also tested and
found to have life. Clark was the Planet Bugle's reporter specializing
in superhuman activity. Since no superheroes and supervillains were
known to exist before this meteor landed, he was assigned to the cover
the press conference, and investigate any possible correlation between
extraterrestrial life arriving on Earth and the appearance of
superhumans.

A small spider somehow had gotten onto the rock, and become infected
with the Kryptonian organisms. The spider sickly crawled away, and
unfortunately into an electric outlet. A power surge killed the spider,
causing the microorganisms to surge with energy. They quickly found the
nearest living being, Clark, and infected his body.

Powers: Clark is very fast. To reflect this, he took the name of The
Flash, a well known comic book speedster. He can run at a sustained
speed of 1200 mph, and can act in combat much faster than almost anyone
in the world. He can even run faster than the human eye can follow,
becoming effectively invisible.

Tactics: The Flash normally starts out defensively, with at least one of
his multipower slots on his free dodge or free rolling with the punch.
His normal attack is move by.

Appearance: The Flash no longer wears a costume similar to the comic
book character's. He now dresses in green, with a face mask.

Quote: "I bet there's something interesting over here."

Dave Mattingly
mattingly@bigfoot.com

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 08:09:37 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Ultra Slots
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

At 09:55 AM 3/5/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>Message text written by Bob Greenwade
>> One of my early characters was specifically loaded to have any two of
>his Multipower slots (all fixed) running at once. Usually that meant
>Flight and Density, Force Field and Energy Blast, or Force Field and STR.
>On the one occasion that the team was in really deep doo-doo he went to
>both Density and STR. (They were 60 point slots, so total STR was 150 with
>his base of 30 -- but his PD and ED were down to 15 each even with the DI
>bonus, so it had *better* work! Fortunately, it did.)<
>
>Does this mean you had 120 points in your Multipower reserve? If so, then
>this example probably wouldn't be allowed in many games.

Not today, no, but this was a 1st Edition character, and the team was
run JLA-style so that characters mostly came from extreme points -- the
resident Speedster was basically a SPD 12 Martial Artist with lots of
Running, there was a Green Arrow-type archer (who happened to be a female
alien, but that's a whole different story), and the two mentalists had a
wide variety of Powers that were all used in "stock" fashion. And none of
these three characters I mentioned had any resistant defenses to speak of
(I think one of the mentalists had a telekinetic Force Field), nor really
even much in the way of non-resistant defenses.
In addition, this character had practically *all* of his Attacks,
Defenses, and Movement in that Multipower. Since it was indeed a 120
Multipower with 60 point Ultra slots, he could only use two of these at
once (his default was Flight and Density since that allowed something
reasonable in all three areas). He turned out to be the most powerful
member of the team, which (a) made him a favorite target for the team's
enemies, and (b) made him a favorite target for the GM, who kept putting in
situations where he didn't happen to have his IAF with him.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Are Mentalists boring?
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:18:55 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

>
> My experience with Mentalists has not been great, to say the least. I
> really haven't played one, but I've attempted to make a few characters and
> I've been in groups that involved Mentalists. In those cases, the
> Mentalists would either use Ego Attacks (which to me is just an EB which is
> easier to hit with, since most people have a lower ECV than DCV), or else
> they would give the illusion that the target was on fire, and roll high
> enough that they would take damage from the illusion. This talk about
> "stupid tricks" has gotten me thinking that maybe I really need a list of=

Well, any character concept is boring if not played right. :)
Go back to the genre and read up on a few of them. The X-munchies titles
are good for this. My favorite is Emma Frost/White Queen of Generation X.
The genre is littered with examples of how to play them. Especially
on the Marvel side.

For having fun with mentalists, I've done things like make a
character feel very hungry for fruit, then make him think another PC is a giant
bannana. Much more fun then saying "Go attack your friends."

To have fun with this kind of character you have to get into
playing what is more than likely going to be an intellectual character. Puzzle
solving etc. is a good forte for a mentalist to get into. They also seem to
make great team leaders.
Another cliche is the dark past. Look at Emma Frost, her origin is
being locked away in an asylum by her parents so they could avoid embarassment
from her wierd headaches and visions. There she was routinely sexually assaulted
until she learned the emotions she could read from people she could also
project. At which point she took control of the guards, burned down the place
and left to begin a rather ruthless life and is only now showing a heroic
side.
Technically you can make any character type fun. But that statement
isn't going to help much. The best advice I can give, and I really think it's
important; is to go read the source material.

I personally don't believe anyone who doesn't read comics is qualified
to GM a super game, and only barely qualified to play. But that's my opinion.

Go read a few comics with mentalists in them and see what they do. See
what place they occupy in the genre. How they work in a team. Then design and
play yours to fit.
It's really much more about that than it is about power stunts and
combat manuevers.

Now if you'll excuse me, I've got to go watch a few hundred Sailor
Moon episodes to get in character with my Upcoming PC in Lizard's Game;
Cosmo Lass. :) (Oh the horror... I can't stand cheesy children's anime. :) )
That and a few older SuperGirl issues should give the material I need.

Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:30:44 -0500
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Are Mentalists boring?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) wrote:

TUM isn't as bad a book as some folks around here would have you believe.
Yes, it's got questionable bits in it, but it does provide a lot of ideas.
I'd recommned buying it.

**************************

I agree. Steve Long generates a lot of ideas, and some of them
are good. I particularly like the rules for using Mental Illusions
to alter a target's perception of time.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Are Mentalists boring?
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:36:03 -0800
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

It's the special effects that make the difference. I've seen Ego Attacks
defined as sleep urge, bliss, pain, emotional overload, etc.

I've got a few mentalist characters that put enough of a twist on the
standard mentalist that they're quite fun to play.

Mentra, the two-headed mentalist, is a telepath. All her powers relate
to thoughts. She can read them send them, change them, etc. You can read
about her at http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/1905/haym07e.html.

Morpheus, the dream warrior, can only manipulate minds when they're
asleep, and can send opponents to sleep.

Scanner is a receptive telepath, and cannot send. This power manifests
itself as telepathy, danger sense, find weakness, etc.

And Mind Thief not only reads your mind -- he keeps it! You know nothing
afterwards.

Dave Mattingly
mattingly@bigfoot.com

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Originating-IP: [149.229.142.45]
From: "" <dgraham882@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Classic Comic Cliches...
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 08:43:55 PST
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

>> Heroes meet evil duplicates of themselves, either clones grown by a
villain
>> or from a parallel universe.
>
>Did that one too, as part of the adventure that featured the part
above...
>
>Hey, they may be cliches, but they worked well!
>
>***************************************************************************

Have already run this cliche with a PC in my own PBEM. It was used as
that player's "hook" to start the adventure, which naturally involves
one or two other parallel dimension cliches as well.

And they're working well here, too. ;)

David

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 08:57:05 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: GMing tips :Accessories
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

At 11:30 AM 3/5/1998 +0000, Theala Sildorian wrote:
>I like props--they make the game feel more real. One GM I played
>with an a sci fi game blatently stole ideas he liked from his
>favorite TV shows--this allowed him to use things like ship models,
>deck plans from books, toys based on the show, as props. For
>example, when I demonstrated what my technomage was doing once, I
>pulled out a STNG tricorder, as her laptop computer. I've also
>written up letters, a will for a major NPC who died, maps for both
>fantasy and sci fi games, forensic reports on an NPC who was murdered
>(that was fun), and a pyschiatric report on a villain the PCs were
>chasing.

Along the lines of prop documents, I occasionally scour the Web for
"handwriting" style fonts. Currently, I have about 30 of them. These can
be handy for signatures and "handwritten" notes from characters, to give
each individual his or her own distinctive look. It also gives the the
players a chance to look at an unsigned note and remark, "Hm, this looks
like Charley's handwriting," without my having to make PER Rolls for the
characters.

>> Other handouts: It adds depth to a game when I give reference
>> sheets and other handouts to players, including knowledge that their
>> characters will have but which the players won't necessariliy
>> remember if the GM only mentions it in passing. I tend to hand out
>> timelines for the campaign world, brief summaries of countries,
>> factions, etc., and whatever else seems relevent to the campaign.
>> For my pirate game, I've worked up two packets of nautical
>> terminology and pirate vocabulary, which is adding lots of fun to
>> the characters' dialogue.
>
><nod> I do this as well. I've also got handouts one GM gave me
>which summarize combat rules, the vehicle rules from E4E, the Horror
>Hero shock rules, calenders of our various worlds, etc. I bought a
>Korean Phrase book for my martial artist, and have bought lots of
>sourcebooks from various games just to find information to have my
>characters do more creative things (for example, I bought WW's Mage
>when I was running a technomage, the Colonial Marines Technical
>Manuel when I was playing in a sci fi game set in that universe, and
>so on). I've got an extensive library on Celtic magic not because
>I'm a New Ager, but because I like the feel of the culture for my
>fantasy universe, and the stuff makes good source material.

Handouts are important to virtually any game. (OK, not *vitally*
important, but they can be extremely helpful.) Even if you stick purely to
BBB rules, the world-setting notes can be a great boon to the players
without their having to constantly ask, "What do the characters know about
this stuff?"
It's also a good way for the GM to sneak information to them that will
be helpful in the game, without their really knowing it. If the handout is
well organized, the players can treat it as a sort of glossary or index,
and look up brief information on your world as they encounter its elements.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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Subject: Going To the Source (WAS: Are Mentalists boring?)
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:58:39 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@spam.sdslink.com>
cc: "Hero Games" <champ-l@omg.org>
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To: champ-l@omg.org

> Technically you can make any character type fun. But that statement
>isn't going to help much. The best advice I can give, and I really think it's
>important; is to go read the source material.
>
> I personally don't believe anyone who doesn't read comics is qualified
>to GM a super game, and only barely qualified to play. But that's my opinion.

I don't agree with this completely, as I didn't read comics for almost 3
years but still played Champions throughout.

BUT...

I have been thinking about this very subject lately, for many reasons. I
currently run two different Champions games. One is a Super-Agents kind
of game, with PC's as members of PRIMUS searching out corruption from
within. The other is a "Avengers"-style four-color-ish game.

The only comics that I read currently are Nightwing, Some Batman and
Superman titles, Thunderbolts, and Spiderman titles.

None of these are really source material for the first game, as it is
agents (very powerful agents, but still not supers) although I do get
plot ideas, there are very few characterization ideas located therein.

What titles of comics do people in your gaming circles read? What other
books/novels? What movies? What are the most helpful to your Gm'ing?
Plotting? Characterization?

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: GMing tips :Accessories
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:06:47 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

> > GM Screens: Over the years, I've made several sets of GM screens to
>
> I seldom have anything to hide from my players, so I don't bother
> with a GM screen. GM screen's seperate the GM from the players, and
>
Yeah, when I remember to bring my screen I always just lay it flat on
the table and use it to avoid 'page flipping'.

As for handouts and notes, I keep them bundled up here and there
and just expect my players will have the sense to not peek through them when
I step away.

> > Props: I like to give the players a prop document now and then. Just
>
> I like props--they make the game feel more real. One GM I played
>
Props are cool. But the time investment needed to make them gets me.
Maybe if I was an art student or something. I don't even have time anymore to
draw up pictures for own PC's... :(

> > Other handouts: It adds depth to a game when I give reference
>
> <nod> I do this as well. I've also got handouts one GM gave me

I do this on my website, since I can work on that at work
when nobody's looking. :)

> Korean Phrase book for my martial artist, and have bought lots of

heh. I just leanred the whole language. But that was for other
reasons. :)

> so on). I've got an extensive library on Celtic magic not because
> I'm a New Ager, but because I like the feel of the culture for my
> fantasy universe, and the stuff makes good source material.
>
I once was trying to study all the religions of mankind, so
I have a similar collection that always raises an eyebrow when any
christian types show up. :)
Myself, I'm an ex Pagan turned Taoist.

> > The Quote Sheet:
>
I liked this one.

I emailed a summation of all of these from up until Tuesday to my players
and they got very interested trying some of the ideas. The one we seem to
be most interested in is the idea of meeting a bit early to 'get in character'
by talking about ourselves and each other in character for a bit each time.

I'll have to get a nice sqaure white room with a single chair and a
jewish guy from New York to do the interviews though. :) (reference to an old
Woody Allen technique here...)

Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Enforcing four color
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:14:30 -0800 (PST)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

> > Hello;
> >
> > This is less advice on how to deal with players as it is a request
> > on how to control oneself as GM. I have a four color setting
> > (featured on my website for the curious, see the sig). What I'm
> > noticing is I keep 'slipping' back to more serious or deadly topics.
>
> It all depends on what your players like and what kind of effect you
> want to acheive. Serious topics allow for levels of complexity that
> strictly four color campaigns don't. If you like stories based
> around "here's the bad guy, this is what he does, lets go beat him
> up" then you're going to run out of ideas quickly.

True. But four-color is so much more than that. Take a look at
Astro City. It's a heroic world with unreal paradigms. But the people
are living breathing three dimensional personalities.
My problem stems with a desire to do that genre on both the
part of me and my players, but a habit learned of old that makes us slip
back into the darker themes in game.
As GM, I spend a lot more time than my players sitting back an
analyzing the game and what I've done with it and where it's going. I'm
probably overdoing it, but I look at a larger picture and try to place in
small tweaks that will slowly shift it the way I want it to develop.
Unfortunatly when put on the spot in mid game I often give out
answers that go against the grain of what I'm trying to achieve. These
quick fixes are learned from the bad habits I've picked up from years of
playing or GMing in darker settings.


Rook
__
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\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Combat (Re: Autofire and Trigger)
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:19:52 -0800 (PST)
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To: champ-l@omg.org

> she can't have resistant defenses, and other restrictions. It's not a
> Champions game, so the focus isn't combat.

Not all Champions games focus on combat. :)

In the 7 games of Champions we've had so far with my new group, there
were two fights.

Rook
__
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\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:21:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Hero Games <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Going To the Source (WAS: Are Mentalists boring?)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, David Fair wrote:

> What titles of comics do people in your gaming circles read?

Lets see... Blade of the Immortal, Preacher, Mage II... a sacttering of
other manga titles.

> What other books/novels?

I've been reading some of the Star Wars novels (Rogue Squadron), mainly
just to read something. Reading habits tend to be scattered among SF,
fantasy, horror.

> What movies?

A *lot* of HK action films, some anime, SF flics... a lot of action films.

> What are the most helpful to your Gm'ing?

I've found a lot of interesting character ideas nestled in HK action films
and many anime, esp thouse that feature the more 'wild' martial arts type
plots.

> Plotting? Characterization?

I'm more interested in characters. Once i have some good chracters, plots
create themselves.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:40:40 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Going To the Source (WAS: Are Mentalists boring?)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

>What titles of comics do people in your gaming circles read? What other
>books/novels? What movies? What are the most helpful to your Gm'ing?
>Plotting? Characterization?

Well, 3 out of 6 people in our local gaming group are die-hard Gold
Digger/Ninja High School fans (me included, natch). Otherwise, I mostly read
translated manga, though I'm also a Usagi Yojimbo reader. And I never pass
up Groo (it's finally back! Yay!). It's been about 2 years since I bought
something from Marvel (I pretty much followed X-Men from #130 onwards, but
it just got to be too much, and too damn crappy). Interestingly enough, some
of my favorite comics in the last decade came through the Marvel UK line
(now defunct) - namely Dark Angel (very cool, but sadly inconsistant) and
Death's Head II (though original DH was more fun). I was never a big DC
reader, though I did follow the Teen Titans sporadically.

Bookwise, most Sci-Fi or Fantasy will do. Moviewise, I prefer science
fiction and shoot'em ups. I also love cheezy flicks with bad plot and
acting. Tearing apart a bad flick is more fun than watching an 'Oscar
Winner' IMHO.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 09:40:48 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Are Mentalists boring?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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I think part of the issue is that most campaigns aren't set up to
deal with mentalists, unless they're in an all-mentalist campaign.
Thus, it is relatively easy for Mentalist Boy to 'get away' with very
simple uses of his powers. Imagine, if you will, a campaign where
almost no one had a DEX over 14 or defenses over 8....Flame Man (Dex
24, 10d6 EB) would simply blast, next target, blast, next target,
etc.

If there's a mentalist on the hero team, the GM ought to give
gratuitious Mental Defense to the bad guys, or make sure there's a
mentalist on each villain team.
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Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 09:49:25 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Doing 'research'
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 08:18 AM 3/5/98 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:
>>
> Now if you'll excuse me, I've got to go watch a few hundred Sailor
>Moon episodes to get in character with my Upcoming PC in Lizard's
Game;
>Cosmo Lass. :) (Oh the horror... I can't stand cheesy children's
anime. :) )
> That and a few older SuperGirl issues should give the material I
need.
>
And the GM appreciates the sacrifices you make for the sake of
immersive role-playing.

Which brings up another unrelated topic: How often do people consult
'source material' when looking for inspiration? I'm gearing up to run
a heavily LSH-influenced supers game, so of course I've been
rereading classic 1960s reprints. But I've also been checking out
science fiction of the 30s, 1950s EC comics, a bit of Star Wars, and
anything else needed to get the 'classic' SF feel -- when the future
consisted of mile-high shining skyscrapers, air-cars, and wagon-wheel
space stations.

What other sorts of 'research' do people do before running a game or
a character?
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Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 13:04:38 -0500
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Going To the Source (WAS: Are Mentalists boring?)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org


>>
>> I personally don't believe anyone who doesn't read comics is qualified
>>to GM a super game, and only barely qualified to play. But that's my
opinion.
>

I tend to feel this way, too - and not just for superhero games. I think a
lot of the negative things I associate with D&D are the result of players &
GM's who were never into fantasy; the conglomerate world presented in the
rulebooks was their entire notion of a fantasy world, and so they built
cliches upon cliches. I've seen supposedly four-color superhero games where
the "heroes" grabbing & using the opposing thugs' AK-47's, and I've seen an
FBI agent PC routinely shooting the bad guys then going through their
pockets for cash. Nothing destroys a genre feel quicker than a player with
no feel for the genre - except for a GM with no feel for the genre.

For this reason, there are some games I've dreamed of running but never
dared to for lack of knowledgeable players. For example, I wanted to run a
game in mythic Greece when the Campaign Classics supplement came out, but
decided not to for fear that the players I was currently associating with
would try to turn things into a battle of good & evil - very unlike Greek
myth. With an M.A. in English and a lot of computer geek type friends, I
tend to run into this sort of problem a lot.

On the other hand, there are plenty of people around with intelligence and
rich imaginations, who can quickly adapt to the conventions of a genre even
if they're not particularly into that sort of stories. As a player, I'm
always glad to participate in less familiar types of campaigns. A GM who's
an expert on the genre can add depth to a game, but one who's simply
willing to make the effort to capture the general feel can do just fine.

In my current pirate campaign, I (the GM) am the only one with any
longstanding interest in pirates, and most of the players are pretty vague
on naval history and the 17th Century in general. But they're a great bunch
of role-players, and they're willing both to work from what they do know
about pirates and to learn from the information and situations I present
them with.



Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:08:00 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Speedsters
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org


> As for whether to use high DEX/SPEED or power stunts, why not use both?

Mostly as there are some serious problems with the below.

> The Flash

> 13 CON 6

Low.

> 36 END 5

Way too low.

> Powers END
> 30 Superspeed EC
> 30a +20 DEX (no figured chars -0)
> 30b +6 SPD
> 30c +20" Running @ 0 END

I'd hand the sheet back and say try again at this point. I don't
allow chars in an EC for the reason of the unbalanced nature. Bye-bye.

> 6 Regeneration 1/Hour
> 5 +10 STUN (only when unconscious -1)

Um. OK. It gets tacked on to the top of your Stun, adding
nothing to your current as you are already KOed. When you awaken, you
loose the Stun. How is this useful?

> 30 Superspeed Multipower
> 1u 7" Flight (costs 3x END) -- whirring eggbeater motions with legs
> to create a small vortex which defies gravity

You can't use this long with your END.

> 1u 16x NCM Running {1200 mph}

No naked advantages (or add-ons) in a MP. Buy some other running
and add the NCM.

> 1u +15" Swimming
> 1u +15" Leap
> 1u Clinging at +15 STR

These are fine.

> 1u +5d6 Hand Attack -- superspeed punch

Won't be so much with the 5 AP HA.

> 1u +15 STR -- doing in one instant what would normally take a
> minute

Explain this. Str is not the characteristic to allow such.

> 1u 1d6-1 RKA Autofire (needs any small objects) -- tossing pennies
> or rocks or bullets at bullet speed

You could get an OIF or IIF for this.

> 1u +3 DCV (must be aware of attack) -- instant dodge
> 1u +15 PD (must be aware of attack) -- rolling with the blow,
> blocking the punch, etc.
> 1u +7 DEF Force Field (must be aware of attack) -- blocking the
> attack with a manhole cover, etc.

Won't be very useful if points are in different slots.


> 1u Missile Deflection: Bullets -- normally catches them and can
> throw them back later

Good.

> 1u Sight Images (only of Self); and Instant Change to costume

Very nice.

> 1u 10 STR TK AE 1 Hex -- whirlwind effect

Good.

> 1u CE: 1 Hex Any superspeed effect -- can clean a room, sign a
> stack of papers, etc.

Not with 1 Hex you can't. (The room, anyway.)


> 3 Speed Reading

Might this work in the MP?

> Quote: "I bet there's something interesting over here."

I like the concept and creation, but the powers need work. Using
crocks and point scams to achieve 250 points doesn't fly IMC. Give this
character one or the other or, IMC, take the extra points needed to make
it a workable concept. Taking those stats out of the EC, changing the NCM
in the MP, and adding END would do it.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Speedsters
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:55:11 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@spam.sdslink.com>
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

On 3/5/98 11:08 AM Dave Mattingly (dmattingly@platsoft.com) Said:

>As for whether to use high DEX/SPEED or power stunts, why not use both?
>Here's my favorite PC speedster, The Flash.

Some of your mechanics were questionable, but I'm sure there will be
someone who will pick that apart piece by piece; I just had to say I
loved your origin story, and how you pieced it together.

Although, it did seem somewhat familiar. :)

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Going To the Source (WAS: Are Mentalists boring?)
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:55:12 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@spam.sdslink.com>
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

On 3/5/98 1:04 PM Bill Svitavsky (nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us) Said:

>In my current pirate campaign, I (the GM) am the only one with any
>longstanding interest in pirates, and most of the players are pretty vague
>on naval history and the 17th Century in general. But they're a great bunch
>of role-players, and they're willing both to work from what they do know
>about pirates and to learn from the information and situations I present
>them with.

And it is that willingness learn and grow the genre that makes them great
roleplayers. Sounds like you have a great group.

And that FBI agent looking for cash, did he ever get any experience
points? IMC, he would never see one! Sounds like an old D&D'er with a bad
case of MHS (Mony Haul Syndrome).

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Speedsters
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:19:21 -0800
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

Tim G wrote:

>> 13 CON 6
> Low.
>> 36 END 5
> Way too low.

What, he has to be super tough and resilient just because he's fast?
What's wrong with speedsters taking recoveries now and then? I don't
generally inflate stats unless they're part of the power. The Flash is
just fast, not strong.

>> Powers END
>> 30 Superspeed EC
>> 30a +20 DEX (no figured chars -0)
>> 30b +6 SPD
>> 30c +20" Running @ 0 END
> I'd hand the sheet back and say try again at this point. I
don't
>allow chars in an EC for the reason of the unbalanced nature.
>Bye-bye.

I cleared it with the GM, and ran the character for over a year. But the
EC is easily replaced with:

60 +20 DEX
10 +3 SPD (only ten points since 2 now come from the DEX)
50 +20" Running @ 1/2 END

Net effect is that he loses 3 SPD and now pays 2 END for his running. Or
else drop the running to 17" at 0 END.

>> 5 +10 STUN (only when unconscious -1)
>Um. OK. It gets tacked on to the top of your Stun, adding
>nothing to your current as you are already KOed. When you awaken,
>you lose the Stun. How is this useful?

That raises his recovery level by one. Now, if he's between -11 and -20
STUN, he recovers as if he's at -10, which means once per phase instead
of once per turn. Kind of like a STUN version of Regeneration.

>> 30 Superspeed Multipower
>> 1u 7" Flight (costs 3x END) -- whirring eggbeater motions with
>> legs to create a small vortex which defies gravity
> You can't use this long with your END.

That's exactly the point. It's not easy to fly from leg motion (and the
lim didn't save him any points, it's just there for flavor). Or replace
it with 7" of Running if it fits your campaign better.

>> 1u 16x NCM Running {1200 mph}
> No naked advantages (or add-ons) in a MP. Buy some other
>running and add the NCM.

Okay, then, +2" of Running at 0 END, with 8x NCM.

Although I wasn't sure about the no add-ons rule.

>> 1u +15 STR -- doing in one instant what would normally take a
>> minute
> Explain this. STR is not the characteristic to allow such.

What can STR do? Punch, Lift, Push, Throw, Grab, Escape. Through
repeated tries, in the blink of an eye, he can get a bonus to all of
them. Or he can haymaker without spending the extra time.

>> 1u 1d6-1 RKA Autofire (needs any small objects) -- tossing pennies
>> or rocks or bullets at bullet speed
> You could get an OIF or IIF for this.

That's essentially what the lim is.

>> 1u +3 DCV (must be aware of attack) -- instant dodge
>> 1u +15 PD (must be aware of attack) -- rolling with the blow,
>> blocking the punch, etc.
>> 1u +7 DEF Force Field (must be aware of attack) -- blocking the
>> attack with a manhole cover, etc.
> Won't be very useful if points are in different slots.

Right. He has to pretty much be expecting trouble. The extra DCV and PD
are his default non-combat slots.

>> 1u CE: 1 Hex Any superspeed effect -- can clean a room, sign a
>> stack of papers, etc.
> Not with 1 Hex you can't. (The room, anyway.)

Granted. He can clean a hex, then. And with his SPD, can clean the room
in a couple of turns -- depending on what needs to be cleaned, that is.

> 3 Speed Reading
> Might this work in the MP?

Some GMs would allow it, some wouldn't. I left it out since it's part of
his package deal, but if I added it in, I'd probably tack on Absolute
Time Sense, Lightning Calculator, and an additional Speed Reading into
the same slot.

> I like the concept and creation, but the powers need work.
Using
>crocks and point scams to achieve 250 points doesn't fly IMC.

I didn't think of anything I did as a point scam, since I would have
gladly lowered his power level, had the GM asked. He was the only 250
newbie in a group of 300-350s that had been playing for a very long
time.

>Give this character one or the other or, IMC, take the extra points
>needed to make it a workable concept. Taking those stats out of
>the EC, changing the NCM in the MP, and adding END would do it.

The changes are ready to go, and he should be more kosher now.


Dave Mattingly

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:19:28 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Are Mentalists boring?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org


Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> wrote:

>
> I think part of the issue is that most campaigns aren't set up to
> deal with mentalists, unless they're in an all-mentalist campaign.
> Thus, it is relatively easy for Mentalist Boy to 'get away' with very
> simple uses of his powers. Imagine, if you will, a campaign where
> almost no one had a DEX over 14 or defenses over 8....Flame Man (Dex
> 24, 10d6 EB) would simply blast, next target, blast, next target,
> etc.
>
> If there's a mentalist on the hero team, the GM ought to give
> gratuitious Mental Defense to the bad guys, or make sure there's a
> mentalist on each villain team.


That's one way to go. Alternately, you can just have the villains react
with good tactics, i.e. everybody attack the mentalist until he, she or it
goes down. I agree with your first point though: if the most effective
strategy for a mentalist is to just keep using the mental attack, then a
character that's interested in just straight effectiveness won't be motivated
to do anything else. Of course, assigning higher egos or gratuitious mental
defense will just make it **more** difficult for the mentalist to succeed
in using other abilities.

I actually had a mentalist enter my campaign about 2/3 of the way in.
Up to that point, I really hadn't used mentalists much at all. Almost all
of the characters only had their base 10 EGO, and of course no mental defense
at all. The villains looked the same. What I ended up doing was having
the villains start reacting intelligently by concentrating on the mentalist
when he proved too effective. I also went back through and upped the EGO's
where I felt it appropriate. Finally, I started to introduce more psionic
villains and NPC's justifying their introduction with a long-running subplot.


We seem to be getting varied perspectives in this thread:

1) Mentalists are boring, they're all the same.
2) Mentalists are boring, they're too effective.
3) maybe even Mentalists are boring, they're not effective enough. (if nobody
else wants to claim this, I'll claim it.)


Curt Hicks

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Going To the Source (WAS: Are Mentalists boring?)
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:06:33 -0800 (PST)
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> The only comics that I read currently are Nightwing, Some Batman and
> Superman titles, Thunderbolts, and Spiderman titles.
>
> None of these are really source material for the first game, as it is
> agents (very powerful agents, but still not supers) although I do get
> plot ideas, there are very few characterization ideas located therein.
>
> What titles of comics do people in your gaming circles read? What other
> books/novels? What movies? What are the most helpful to your Gm'ing?
> Plotting? Characterization?

Teams:


Stormwatch -- UN global team, the new series is Excellent, the old series has
definate ups and downs.

Youngblood -- Ex government team turned private. Avoid the old series unless
you feel you need the background. The new series started this
month by Alan Moore is VERY GOOD.

Generation X -- Mutant teenage team. Done better than the old New Mutants or
Teen Titans. shows how to do a good teen-super game. I'd
call it a 'good read'.

Gen 13 -- Semi Cheesecake but otherwise good. Gets better as the issues go on.
Optional read if you want. The Bootleg spinoff is better than
the main title.

ThunderBolts -- Villian Team posing as Heroes. Similar to the old Liberty
Project Comic from Eclipse.


Solo:


Impulse -- best of all three out there in : Sppedster comic, Teen Comic, Solo
hero comic. If you don't read it, you should. You won't regret it.

Catwoman -- Good comic, shows life from the villian's point of view for a
villian who's really not all that bad.


World/City:


Astro City -- Four Color done right. It's less about any particular super than
it is about the world they live in, and the human side of the
people behind the masks, or living along side them. You
haven't read a Super Hero comic until you've read this one.


Other's I don't read but recommend:


Heroes For Hire -- Marvel's forte into a mercenary hero team. I have 1 issue I
just bought and have yet to read, I'll know if it's good after
that.

JLA -- The classic super team comic book, in a new revision these days, gets
high ratings but I haven't invested in it yet.

LSH -- Classic teen,sci fi, team comic. I keep meaning to start reading this
one. I'm not even sure if it's in print right now though.

Teen Titans -- New team, new story. Suppossed to be better than old stuff, but
I've yet to read it. The old stuff made for a good teen team comic.

That's about the list as I have it. Other's may have more.

Out of Print:


DNAgents --- out of print since aroun 1987 or so, if you can find it it's an
excellent example of a corporate team.


Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing

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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Speedsters
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:07:14 -0800
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David Fair wrote:
>I just had to say I loved your origin story, and
>how you pieced it together.
>Although, it did seem somewhat familiar. :)

Thanks. That was one of the most fun parts about him. I came up with the
name -- Clark Parker -- first. The origin wrote itself from there.

Dave Mattingly

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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:23:46 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Speedsters
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by "Tim R. Gilberg"
> I like the concept and creation, but the powers need work. Using
crocks and point scams to achieve 250 points doesn't fly IMC.<

Are "crocks" and "point scams" different ways to squeeze more value out of
your points? I'm not familiar with either term, but I'm certainly aware
(as any Hero player is) that you can play the numbers in many ways....

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Speedsters
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>>>>> "R" == Rook <rook@infinex.com> writes:

R> That's it? Only 4-5 thugs/12 seconds?

R> I think we have a major philosophical disagreement on what a
R> speedster is here.

I think we have a major philosophical disagreement on what constitutes a
playable character in a team setting, and what a starting character should
be capable of accomplishing.

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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
Subject: Re: GMing tips: Accessories
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:33:52 -0800
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For me, handouts add a lot to a game.

Besides weekly newsletters, I made a group photo and counter cutouts
using computer clipart. I also made several bad guys counters on weeks
when I knew ahead of time what we'd be facing.

A little preparation can make a game session go much more smoothly and
enjoyably.

Since my PC in my last group was a reporter, I'd make up fake newspapers
with our exploits on page one along with other current events or news of
the weird articles. All of it being from the press' point of view,
though.

Reading about their own exploits in the newspaper, or reading a printout
that looks like a notebook (or like a scroll or a plaque or whatever),
or looking at a map with specific targets identified makes discussions a
little more lively.

If a session stops for the night in the middle of a combat, a snapshot
of everyone's position and the battlefield layout make it much easier to
pick up where everyone left off, especially if a hex map and counters
need to be set up again.

And a pre-built speed chart every week always helps.


Dave Mattingly
mattingly@bigfoot.com

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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:43:55 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Are Mentalists boring?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Curt Hicks
>We seem to be getting varied perspectives in this thread:

1) Mentalists are boring, they're all the same.
2) Mentalists are boring, they're too effective.
3) maybe even Mentalists are boring, they're not effective enough. (if
nobody
else wants to claim this, I'll claim it.)<

I'll agree with the first two. I agree with #1 because, based on my
experience, Mentalists are difficult to play. It takes a certain type of
player to do it right--one who is not as interested in going toe-to-toe
with the baddies. I agree with #2 because the vast majority of characters,
hero and villain alike, have minimal ECVs and no mental defense whatsoever.
As long as a Mentalist has a few "bodyguard" characters to protect against
a targeted onslaught, they are extremely effective even at modest power
levels. Introducing a Mentalist on the opposing side does not change this
fact...it just means that both sides are now vulnerable to mental powers.
I'm not sure it even makes much sense for the two Mentalists to battle it
out, since they will each presumably have high enough mental defenses to
protect against any major effects except from a psionic giant like Menton.
They will be much more effective by working on other opponents, hoping to
free up someone else to take out the opposing Mentalist.

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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:55:00 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: "Stupid Tricks"
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by David Fair
>Punch everyone in a room (up to 5 times each!):
EB, Any Area, Autofire, Must be able to traverse area in question
(no walls, etc in the way), No Range<

I'm not sure I understand this one. If I'm correct, it's trying to
simulate that he runs several circuits around the room, fists flying.
However, with this power, he isn't actually moving...he'll end up right
where he started. Is this power essentially allowing you to do more
attacks than would be possible with Running/Move-By? It sounds sorta like
a way to have a speedster without buying any extra running at all. Or does
"traverse" mean he must have enough running to make 5 circuits and end up
at his starting place? That sounds like an awful lot of running, but if
that's the case, why not just do Move-Bys and get the velocity bonus?

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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:57:18 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Speedsters
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> >> 13 CON 6
> > Low.
> >> 36 END 5
> > Way too low.
>
> What, he has to be super tough and resilient just because he's fast?
> What's wrong with speedsters taking recoveries now and then? I don't
> generally inflate stats unless they're part of the power. The Flash is
> just fast, not strong.

True. But being able to move that quickly suggests some
incredible physical conditioning. This probably should be represented by
a bit higher CON. 15-18 minimum. This would also up that END, though not
high enough, IMHO.

> >> 30 Superspeed EC
> >> 30a +20 DEX (no figured chars -0)
> >> 30b +6 SPD
> >> 30c +20" Running @ 0 END
> > I'd hand the sheet back and say try again at this point. I
> don't
> >allow chars in an EC for the reason of the unbalanced nature.
> >Bye-bye.
>
> I cleared it with the GM, and ran the character for over a year. But the
> EC is easily replaced with:
>
> 60 +20 DEX
> 10 +3 SPD (only ten points since 2 now come from the DEX)
> 50 +20" Running @ 1/2 END
>
> Net effect is that he loses 3 SPD and now pays 2 END for his running. Or
> else drop the running to 17" at 0 END.

That does work better. I also just noticed that reduced END on
running, so a higher END isn't absolutely necessary. I'm really a
stickler for chars in ECs, but you do leave room for improvement with the
new construction.

> >> 5 +10 STUN (only when unconscious -1)
> >Um. OK. It gets tacked on to the top of your Stun, adding
> >nothing to your current as you are already KOed. When you awaken,
> >you lose the Stun. How is this useful?
>
> That raises his recovery level by one. Now, if he's between -11 and -20
> STUN, he recovers as if he's at -10, which means once per phase instead
> of once per turn. Kind of like a STUN version of Regeneration.

Ah. Not quite "book" rules, but not a bad house rule. I'd go
with a triggered Stun and End AID.

> >> 30 Superspeed Multipower
> >> 1u 7" Flight (costs 3x END) -- whirring eggbeater motions with
> >> legs to create a small vortex which defies gravity
> > You can't use this long with your END.
>
> That's exactly the point. It's not easy to fly from leg motion (and the
> lim didn't save him any points, it's just there for flavor). Or replace
> it with 7" of Running if it fits your campaign better.

I have no problem with the flight, just pointing out it's heavy
END charge. It's a nice effect.

Maybe add Gliding with less of an END penalty (to survive those
nasty falls.)

> >> 1u 16x NCM Running {1200 mph}
> > No naked advantages (or add-ons) in a MP. Buy some other
> >running and add the NCM.
>
> Okay, then, +2" of Running at 0 END, with 8x NCM.

Better.

> Although I wasn't sure about the no add-ons rule.

Neither am I, but IMC I use it.

> >> 1u +15 STR -- doing in one instant what would normally take a
> >> minute
> > Explain this. STR is not the characteristic to allow such.
>
> What can STR do? Punch, Lift, Push, Throw, Grab, Escape. Through
> repeated tries, in the blink of an eye, he can get a bonus to all of
> them. Or he can haymaker without spending the extra time.

Ah, OK. Thought you were trying to do the super-fast skill thing.
This is nice, actually.

> >> 1u CE: 1 Hex Any superspeed effect -- can clean a room, sign a
> >> stack of papers, etc.
> > Not with 1 Hex you can't. (The room, anyway.)
>
> Granted. He can clean a hex, then. And with his SPD, can clean the room
> in a couple of turns -- depending on what needs to be cleaned, that is.

You may want to buy this up.

> > 3 Speed Reading
> > Might this work in the MP?
>
> Some GMs would allow it, some wouldn't. I left it out since it's part of
> his package deal, but if I added it in, I'd probably tack on Absolute
> Time Sense, Lightning Calculator, and an additional Speed Reading into
> the same slot.

I wouldn't allow it in the same slot, but put in different slots
the AP would be low enough to use 2 or more.

> I didn't think of anything I did as a point scam, since I would have
> gladly lowered his power level, had the GM asked. He was the only 250
> newbie in a group of 300-350s that had been playing for a very long
> time.

Ah. Well, the only real scam was the chars in an EC, and some GMs
allow that. I would have allowed 275-300 starting points for this
character in my campaign.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:00:30 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Pre Attacks
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> Excuse me? This is the same Humperdink that tracked Wesley around "he
> defeated a giant", "two amazing swordsmen fought here", "he escaped the
> fireswamp"...

True, but he had killed him earlier that day and had reason to
believe he lacked strength.

> >> Surprise (Coming Back From 'The Dead') +1D6...
> > At least that much. Humperdink had killed him earlier that day.

Of course, the same thing is also worth a bonus.

> >> Appropriate Setting (making challenges before a fight) +1D6...
> > Possibly.
>
> Iffy, I'll grant. How about 'defending his true love'? :-)

Nah.

> > Doubt the last. He still had his guards and was in a definate
> >position of power, especially with Westly lying on the bed. He also has
> >reason to expect a bluff from a Westly weakened from being dead. -2 to 3
> >dice is quite possible.
>
> Ah, but Wesley _stood up_! :-) A good Acting skill on Wesley's part negated
> the percieved advantage on Humperdink's part.

True. Acting skill, though? I'd call it a push of STR with an
Ego roll.

> Now, you wanna talk PRE attacks, try the Giant's (darn it, I forget his name
> in the story! Fezzic?...) PRE attack on the soldiers. Yikes.

Of course, this was aided by taking "extra time". How would that
work with PRE attacks?



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:01:52 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Jedi EC?
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> This is where I have the problem: the light saber is *not* the source of
> the ability as you have written it. Witness Darth Vader's trick in "The
> Empire Strikes Back".

True.

> And I really dislike the idea of a Focus that is sometimes universal and
> sometimes personal. That just screams "cheeze" at me.

How so? It's a focused MP with "requires a skill roll" and a
*NASTY* side effect.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:03:28 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: RE: Ultra Slots
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> Heh. Actually, this sounds like a hell of a lot of fun. Probably a Cosmic
> VPP, with the limitation: Must tell outrageous origin lie to manifest power
> (-1/4). Ever had a player in a campaign that was 'nothing' but a VPP?
> Hodgepodge, the man whos lies are stronger than reality!!!

I really like this concept.

On a sort of unrelated not, does anyone know how to build a
"random" multipower? Something like AD&D's Wand of Wonder.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:05:09 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Autofire and Trigger
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> > Nope, it hits after. It is triggered by the attack hitting. You
> > could do something like T-Port, triggered by dodging which would make you
> > immune to a first attack of the phase. However, you could abort to a
> > T-Port anyway, so . . .
>
> I didn't think you could abort to movement powers. That's why Dive for
> Cover is a manuver.

Oops. Can you Dive for Cover with a T-Port, though?



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:08:28 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Autofire and Trigger
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> Actually, the effect could be worded like this:
>
> "T-Port triggered by any incoming attack that is destined to hit, triggering
> just before contact."

But the power would have to have some way to detect that incoming
attack and, even so, would not necessarily be able to go before said
attack. It'd be treated as concurent actions requiring a DEX roll. That
triggered power would have a 0 DEX and probably lose.

> This one first came up in my 1990 game when I tried to convert a GURPS
> T-Porting Super in Hero. I found the effect to either be totally useless or
> completly imbalancing in Hero, depending on how trigger gets interpreted.

Try it this way. Teleport, triggered by dodging an incomming
attack. The attack is resolved first, then the blink occurs. SFX: If it
misses you, you blinked out in time. If it hits you, you blinked a little
too late.

>
> As for the actual character behind it, to simplify the issue I took
> a step back from mechanics and looked at my special effect again. The effect
> was that I avoid getting hit by tporting a short distance. So I just bought
> 5 levels of DCV with an activiation roll. The effect was never supposed to let
> me teleport far enough to avoid an area attack, so that worked fine.

Exactly. Even, as I said, add that dodge-triggered T-Port.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:11:17 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Are Mentalists boring?
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> I've got a few mentalist characters that put enough of a twist on the
> standard mentalist that they're quite fun to play.
>
> Mentra, the two-headed mentalist, is a telepath. All her powers relate
> to thoughts. She can read them send them, change them, etc. You can read
> about her at http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/1905/haym07e.html.
>
> Morpheus, the dream warrior, can only manipulate minds when they're
> asleep, and can send opponents to sleep.
>
> Scanner is a receptive telepath, and cannot send. This power manifests
> itself as telepathy, danger sense, find weakness, etc.
>
> And Mind Thief not only reads your mind -- he keeps it! You know nothing
> afterwards.

Interesting list. I tend to heavily limit Mentalists as I really
can get tired of Telepathy problems. It's tough to do a mystery with a
telepath around.

I encourage specialized mentalists -- Psychokinetics,
Pyrokinentics, Cyberkinetics, Dream Walkers, etc.

In my last campaign I helped a player write up a powerful Empath
-- Euphoria. She had Mind Control and Telepathy, both for emotions only.
("He's hiding something, captain.) She also had healing with feedback,
Aura detection, and an Ego attack defined as emotional overload.




-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 13:18:22 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Speedsters
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At 12:07 PM 3/5/98 -0800, Dave Mattingly wrote:
>David Fair wrote:
>>I just had to say I loved your origin story, and
>>how you pieced it together.
>>Although, it did seem somewhat familiar. :)
>
>Thanks. That was one of the most fun parts about him. I came up with
the
>name -- Clark Parker -- first. The origin wrote itself from there.
>
It sounds like something straight out of 'Amalglam' -- was that your
intent?
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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:18:38 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Hero Games <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Going To the Source (WAS: Are Mentalists boring?)
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> > I personally don't believe anyone who doesn't read comics is qualified
> >to GM a super game, and only barely qualified to play. But that's my opinion.
>
> I don't agree with this completely, as I didn't read comics for almost 3
> years but still played Champions throughout.

I'd have to disagree. I've gamed with many who read no comics but
have still had great RP experiences. Most are familiar through other
superhero mediums -- TV and movies.

> What titles of comics do people in your gaming circles read? What other
> books/novels? What movies? What are the most helpful to your Gm'ing?
> Plotting? Characterization?

I read comics for a little over a year sometime around my senior
year of high school. I was all over the place with the early editions of
War Machine, Superboy, Steel, and Hawkeye. (The last was a limited
series, I think). I also read X titles, West Coast Avengers, Alpha Strike
(the last two just before they ended) and a few others. I've gotten many
ideas, but I've also drawn from other places.

As an English major, I have little time for outside reading, but
do get in some. I like Clancy for modern action. I just read The
Princess Bride.

Most of my reading is class-work. Took a Sci-Fi lit Independant
Study last semester using Stranger in a Strange Land, Dune, Contact,
Neuromancer, Starship Troopers, The Ship Who Sang (Anne McCaffery) and
Steel Beach (John Varley) as my major works as well as 40-50 short
stories.

I've read in the Romantic period, the Victorian period, early
American authors, early 20th century American Authors, contemporary
poetry, Native American literature(one of my concentrations), Medieval
Literature (the other), Shakespeare, and a course centered around
Faustian-themed literature. I've had absolutely no problem finding story
ideas.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Pre Attacks
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:28:00 -0800
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On Tuesday, March 03, 1998 6:27 PM, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:


<snip>
>
>> * Luke Skywalker in Muppets in Space III:
>> "Surrender now, Jabba, and I'll let you live."
>> (While bound and walking the plank)
>
> Definately not. He (Luke) held all the cards. Jabba just didn't
>know it. Call it underestimating Jedi by Jabba.


No, no, no. Luke wasn't the one overconfident, Jabba was.:)

Filksinger

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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:39:26 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: "Stupid Tricks"
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---David Stallard wrote:
>
> Message text written by David Fair
> >Punch everyone in a room (up to 5 times each!):
> EB, Any Area, Autofire, Must be able to traverse area in
question
> (no walls, etc in the way), No Range<
>
> I'm not sure I understand this one. If I'm correct, it's trying to
> simulate that he runs several circuits around the room, fists flying.
> However, with this power, he isn't actually moving...he'll end up
right
> where he started. Is this power essentially allowing you to do more
> attacks than would be possible with Running/Move-By? It sounds
sorta like
> a way to have a speedster without buying any extra running at all.
Or does
> "traverse" mean he must have enough running to make 5 circuits and
end up
> at his starting place? That sounds like an awful lot of running,
but if
> that's the case, why not just do Move-Bys and get the velocity bonus?

'Cause multiple move-bys are hard, and you do run the risk of taking
damage yourself from them (1/3 the damage rolled is applied against
the attackers def).
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:39:26 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: "Stupid Tricks"
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---David Stallard wrote:
>
> Message text written by David Fair
> >Punch everyone in a room (up to 5 times each!):
> EB, Any Area, Autofire, Must be able to traverse area in
question
> (no walls, etc in the way), No Range<
>
> I'm not sure I understand this one. If I'm correct, it's trying to
> simulate that he runs several circuits around the room, fists flying.
> However, with this power, he isn't actually moving...he'll end up
right
> where he started. Is this power essentially allowing you to do more
> attacks than would be possible with Running/Move-By? It sounds
sorta like
> a way to have a speedster without buying any extra running at all.
Or does
> "traverse" mean he must have enough running to make 5 circuits and
end up
> at his starting place? That sounds like an awful lot of running,
but if
> that's the case, why not just do Move-Bys and get the velocity bonus?

'Cause multiple move-bys are hard, and you do run the risk of taking
damage yourself from them (1/3 the damage rolled is applied against
the attackers def).
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Jedi EC?
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:

>> And I really dislike the idea of a Focus that is sometimes universal and
>> sometimes personal. That just screams "cheeze" at me.

TRG> How so? It's a focused MP with "requires a skill roll" and a
TRG> *NASTY* side effect.

Because a Focus is either one or the other.

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Subject: Re: Speedsters
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:

TRG> True. But being able to move that quickly suggests some
TRG> incredible physical conditioning. This probably should be represented
TRG> by a bit higher CON. 15-18 minimum. This would also up that END,
TRG> though not high enough, IMHO.

That is the strongest argument I have against speedsters with high Speed
scores: they go through END much more quickly then they apparantly should.
True, they can afford to "waste" actions on recoveries, but that can be
countered by a thug holding his action, and there are usually many more
thugs than speedsters in a fight. And if they waste actions for
Recoveries, they are not moving or attacking, violating their concepts:
speedsters *MOVE*, they do not sit around doing nothing.

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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Pre Attacks
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:52:57 -0800
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On Wednesday, March 04, 1998 5:22 AM, Michael Surbrook wrote:


<snip>
>Finally, here are the PRE values for the assorted PB characters,
taken
>from the write-ups I posted to the list a while back:
>
>Fezzik: 15
>Humperdink: 20
>Inigo: 15
>Wesley: 20
>Rugen: 18
>Vezzini: 10
>
>Note: this numbers were drawn more from the book descriptions of the
>characters than the movie.


Fezzik was so impressive that audiences booed him when he beat up
groups of men in the wrestling ring. Anyone who so impresses people
that they think he's a bully when beating up six professional
wrestlers simultaneously has more than a 15 PRE.

As for the movie Fezzik, he would have, in my campaign, more than a
20. Probably closer to a 30.

_My_ favorite presence attack from the movie: "Everybody, move!" A
clear example of the uses of massive amounts of presence, as I could
not see fit to give him even a +1d6 for _anything_, offhand.

Filksinger

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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Speedsters
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:57:50 -0800
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I wrote:
>>Thanks. That was one of the most fun parts about him. I came up with
>>the name -- Clark Parker -- first. The origin wrote itself from there.

Lizard asks:
>It sounds like something straight out of 'Amalglam' -- was that your
>intent?

The background is indeed very Amalgam, but the powers are straight
speedster.

Dave Mattingly

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Subject: Re: Are Mentalists boring? (LONG)
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:58:57 -0500
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From: David Fair <DFair@spam.sdslink.com>
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>1) Mentalists are boring, they're all the same.
>2) Mentalists are boring, they're too effective.
>3) maybe even Mentalists are boring, they're not effective enough.


Here is a copy of an article I originally found on Red October. The
article is by Matthew Lewis, so any TM's and such would be his (although
the formatting errors are mine). He also wrote an interesting article in
an old (#14-#18 range) issue of Adventurers Club.

The article is a little long, but it has some excellent tactics and
ideas. Speaking as someone who has GM'ed a game in which Matthew has
played a mentalist, his ideas and techniques are definately worth looking
at.


-------------------------------------------

The Tactics of Deception

Copyright 1991 by Matthew Lewis
Illusionists tend to be a rare breed. Few villains and even fewer heroes
have
this most underrated power. Although illusions can't break down walls, or
heave
Cadillacs, they should not be dismissed. A skilled illusionist can change
the
apparent nature of reality. Properly handled, this seemingly weak power
can
leave characters doubting their sanity. Illusion is a power of subtlety
and
indirection. Use it to mislead, deceive and confuse rather than destroy
your
opponent. If you accept that illusion is not a power for direct violence,
you
can give your friends an enormous tactical advantage, and drive your foes
out
of their minds.
First of all, if you as a player or GM wish to run an illusionist, you
should
ask yourself these questions: Can I describe images quickly and
concisely?
Can I come up with them in the first place? If you tend to speak slowly
and
softly, it's best to stick with other types of characters. Unless you
find
that the others in your group are hanging form your every word. You
should
also work up a repertoire of images. Jot down any descriptions yo or
come
across that seem effective. If you invent them yourself, so much the
better.
If the description comes from somewhere else try to understand why it's
effective. As for your own deathless prose, try to find ways to tighten
it.
Remember to go for impression, not detail. Although mental illusions are
predominantly visual, you shouldn't limit yourself to vision. The scent
of
an appropriate species female in heat would be a serious distraction to
a
bestial type like Jaguar, for instance. Audible,tactile, and gustatory
illusions are also possible. audible illusions, a scream for help, the
philadelphia strings plays"Satisfaction", (The latter might be
considered a
type of sonic attack.)or tactile illusions, a change in the texture of
an
object,an invisible object, are easily isolated. In other words those
senses
can be affected without involving any of the others.Gustatory or
illusions of
taste, are a little harder, since you have to touch your tongue to
things to
taste them. A purist may argue that taste and smell are linked. But, few
people perceive those senses that way, and when working with illusion,
perception is everything.
When role-playing an illusionist, you should consider how the character
uses
the power in 'everyday' situations. In combat, there are many
possibilities
besides the attack-by-phantom-beast, or phantom ray-gun. To illustrate
uses of
illusion, both in and out of combat, I use two of my characters as
examples:
StarDancer has Images that affect the visual senses, and normal hearing.
When
not in combat she uses her images to help communicate, for instance,
using
pictures, rather than try to describe things, or incidents. She also
likes to
subject everyone within range to her taste in music, and imagery drawn
from
saturday-morning TV. Auto firing candy-apple-red lip-prints at camera
men is
one of her favorites. When in combat, she is much more subtle. A common
defensive
move is displacement. This means she makes something, usually herself,
appear to
be where it isn't.In game terms, she becomes invisible, and projects the
image
elsewhere. Since her invisibility is bought usable by others, she can
also do this
to other characters. Another good defensive tactic is replication. This
means
multiplying herself, or someone else.This considerably reduces the odds
of being
targeted, as her opponent has to figure out which image has a person
inside. A
third tactic is trading places. This is a very good move for dealing
with multiple
opponents. Trading places is accomplished by flying close to her victim,
as if
performing a move-through, and then exchanging images. To a bystander,
or her
opponents, it appears as if she hither target, and knocked him back
several hexes.
Lastly, she can setup coordinated attacks. She does this by outlining
one of the
opposition, (usually in a clashing color) and keeping him outlined until
everyone
is ready to attack.
Dr. Eidektos takes a more serious approach. If he has to be in combat,
he prefers
to use naturalistic effects which do not betray his presence. For
example, the
doctor might generate a mental illusion that would convince his
antagonist that
he's being attacked by one of his own team-mates. Another illusionist
might create
a ray-pistol. Dr. Eidektos would create the smell of natural gas
(actually a
commercial product known as Odalarm(tm)) then sparks from a nearby wall.
The
unfortunate person caught at ground zero would think the resulting
explosion was
perfectly reasonable.The good Doctor does not believe that an illusion
has to be
monstrous or bizarre to be effective. (I also believe that an
illusionist should
get a bonus for plausibility.) Out of combat,Dr. Eidektos can use his
powers to
help other characters overcome psychological problems. The process will
take weeks,
even months of game-time, and is far from pleasant for said character.
The Doctor
uses telepathy to uncover memories, and his illusions to reveal said
memories to
his patient. This combination of powers has great potential for abuse,
as it is
possible to alter memories, given enough time. Finally, Dr. Eidektos
will use
illusions to enhance his presence attack. He doesn't do this in combat
because he
likes to keep his profile nice and low. Which is a good survival tactic
for any egoist.
Using Dr Eidektos and StarDancer, I have touched on some of the
non-combat uses for
illusion. An illusionist might use images to create music videos etc.
The ways you
can use illusions to entertain or annoy fellow players are too numerous
for a
complete list. Any of the standard practical jokes can be done with
illusion. I
leave it to your, hopefully, fiendish imagination other possibilities.
Keep it light
though, and make sure that the other players are amused even if their
characters
might not be. Then there is the primary purpose of illusion. That is
plain,
straight forward deception. One standard 'bit' is disguise. With
illusion it is
possible for a character to disguise or conceal himself and his friends.
Keeping
this effect going for extended periods might be a problem. First the
illusionist
must concentrate or expend energy. (Fourth edition rules do make this
easier.) A
quick pat-down will reveal visual images, remote surveillance equipment
will
uncover mental illusions. Even so, illusions are still useful for mass
infiltration.
Another possibility is to use the disguise phenomenon to break (bend
actually) a
recalcitrant prisoner. Make him think he's escaped and is now reporting
to a
superior officer. Or, he can be passing what he knows to a fellow
operative. If
you make him think he's dreaming he will be less likely to notice small
mistakes.
This is more effective if preceded by more conventional techniques.
(Bright lights,
lack of sleep and so on) your subject will think you're just using what
little
'convincing' is available to the good guys. No sweat for an agent from
Demon or
Viper. Disguise is also useful for persuasion.Sometimes who you are can
be as
important as what you are saying.When dealing with opposing or allied
groups the
clever illusionist will try to pass himself off as someone they are
likely to
listen to. Given the right source,and delivery, people will believe all
kinds of
things. An example of that was the 1938 broadcast of The war of the
Worlds.
Hundreds, maybe thousands of people thought the martians were really
invading. So
with these ideas to spark your imagination, you should be well equipped
to cloud
their minds.

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

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Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 16:01:35 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Doing 'research'
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>Which brings up another unrelated topic: How often do people consult
>'source material' when looking for inspiration? I'm gearing up to run
>a heavily LSH-influenced supers game, so of course I've been
>rereading classic 1960s reprints. But I've also been checking out
>science fiction of the 30s, 1950s EC comics, a bit of Star Wars, and
>anything else needed to get the 'classic' SF feel -- when the future
>consisted of mile-high shining skyscrapers, air-cars, and wagon-wheel
>space stations.
>
>What other sorts of 'research' do people do before running a game or
>a character?

To help me with parts of my upcoming Star Hero game, I'm reading Kim
Stanley Robinson's Red/Green/Blue Mars trilogy (Mars is undergoing
terraforming in my campaign) and Arthur C. Clarke's "Fountains of
Paradise", which chronicles the building of a space elevator.

My wife researches her campaigns -- Call of Cthulhu; she will play Hero,
but not run it -- with the same intensity she does research for any book
she's writing. That may involve digging through the public library
archives to find out what the local area was like in the 1930's...where
were the city limits at the time, and did this building or that park or
that street exist? Maps are photocopied, as are pictures of places that
have since been greatly altered or torn down.

Damon

===================
If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research,
would it?
-- Einstein

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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:05:26 -0600 (CST)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Pre Attacks
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On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:

> > Ah, but Wesley _stood up_! :-) A good Acting skill on Wesley's part negated
> > the percieved advantage on Humperdink's part.
>
> True. Acting skill, though? I'd call it a push of STR with an
> Ego roll.

Push of STR to do the standing up, but an Acting roll to not make it look
like a struggle that was using all of his strength...

J

"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"

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Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 14:07:48 -0800
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <scm@mactyre.net>
Subject: Re: Going To the Source (WAS: Are Mentalists boring?)
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At 11:58 AM 3/5/98 -0500, David Fair wrote:
>I have been thinking about this very subject lately, for many reasons. I
>currently run two different Champions games. One is a Super-Agents kind
>of game, with PC's as members of PRIMUS searching out corruption from
>within. The other is a "Avengers"-style four-color-ish game.
>
>The only comics that I read currently are Nightwing, Some Batman and
>Superman titles, Thunderbolts, and Spiderman titles.
>
>None of these are really source material for the first game, as it is
>agents (very powerful agents, but still not supers) although I do get
>plot ideas, there are very few characterization ideas located therein.
>
>What titles of comics do people in your gaming circles read? What other
>books/novels? What movies? What are the most helpful to your Gm'ing?
>Plotting? Characterization?

Most of the people in my games were comic book readers during the 80s but
were turned off by the turn of comics in the 90s (myself included -- I was
an avid collector of many titles but quit cold turkey in 1992) and thus
tend to run and play in an 80s-comics vein. Seems to work pretty well for
all of us, so I can't complain. Of all the comics I own, though, I really
only reread my LSH (the adult series), Elementals (my primary inspiration
for most super hero games in many respects), Checkmate (those few that I
have), Maze Agency, and Hellblazer. Granted, we do a lot of Super Agent
games in our group (PRIMUS and Chessmen the most prominent). I really love
the villains from the Elementals and since most of my players were never
into that title, I can use them pretty much verbatim (the Rapture were the
BEST!)

In my own PRIMUS FTF game I'm inspired by a lot of the older X-files
episodes and I also like tweaking standard conspiracy theories (KS:
Conspiracy Theory 11- is part of the Nevadan package deal, dontcha know)
for plots. Since I take the POV that PRIMUS is a super-powered FBI (and my
PCs are part of Silver Avenger Richardson's task force and thus have more
autonomy), X-files plots work very well indeed. With only a tiny bit of
altering, even they can be used verbatim. For the most part, however, I
use these ideas as springboards. My players are, I must admit, far more
devious and inventive than I am, and often they will come up with much
better ideas than I do...and so I'll run with theirs instead. What's
important in a plot to me is not that I stick to all the little details I
thought of beforehand and insist on using them all, but that I'm consistent
with my past games and continue to work towards my ultimate plot goals.

Babylon 5 was a big influence on my GMing of the Hudson Hawks game, though
it had nothing to do with space (well, not much). What I enjoyed about B5
was the build-up of tension, and the fact that our heroes started out as
really believing in the system they served. That turned to frustration and
eventually to rebellion...and that was the element I used in my Champions
game. I don't like to start games with the history as a fait accompli; I
like for the players to have a share in the action.

Don't underestimate the power of using adventures designed for other genres
as a break from a superpowered game, however. I wanted to do something
completely different one night in my Hudson Hawks game, and so I pulled a
Cthulhu adventure from an old Challenge magazine, came up with some monster
stats in Champions, and ran that for them. The players were so conditioned
about being paranoid (from their days playing CoC) that they were SUPER
cautious, despite the fact they were 400+ point Champs characters tossing
around 80-90 active attacks, not carrying Tommy guns. About halfway
through (as they were sneaking through an abandoned farmhouse, knowing that
*something* lurked there), one player sat up, said, "Hey, wait a minute!
You're running a Cthulhu game!" It was a blast. I have plans for doing
this to my PRIMUS players the next time or two I run as well, just to get
away from all the VIPER-style plots.

And that was terribly long-winded of me. Apologies to those of you who
have already heard about the CoC thing...I think I may have mentioned that
before.

Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
http://www.mactyre.net

A flung stone has always been a fool's favorite means of putting himself on
a level with the wise.
-- Edgar Pangborn

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Reply-To: "James Jandebeur" <Waveking@concentric.net>
From: "James Jandebeur" <Waveking@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Other Great Presence Attacks
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:22:10 -0800
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Ok: This one was done in a game I was running. Our Heroes, the Round
Table, defenders of the British Isles(4 color), were after the Evil Wizard.
He had sequestered himself in a Pyramid in the sands of Egypt. One of the
characters, Monolith, who had the same type of "strength" Superman has these
days (no-range TK) walked up the side of the pyramid, lifted off the top,
looked down out our villain, and said, "Ah, the sun in your face, the wind
in your hair!" While the villain did not actually faint, he did stand there
awe struck long enough for the rest of the heroes to get there.

JAJ, Rules Philosopher


-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Wednesday, March 04, 1998 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: Other Great Presence Attacks


>At 02:19 PM 3/4/1998 -0500, BILL SVITAVSKY wrote:
>>
>>We've had numerous Princess Bride moments mentioned, and Luke's
>>failed Presence Attack in ROTJ. What other memorable Presence
>>Attacks do people remember?
>
> This one took place in a game session from a fantasy campaign that I
>wasn't even a part of. It was described to me, and has stuck in my mind
>ever since. I may have some of the details wrong, but the line is a
classic.
>
> About a month prior to this, the party had picked up a youngish woman as
>a domestic helper. She was fairly mysterious about her past, but most of
>the group wasn't all that curious anyway.
> Then the party, numbering about 20, came face to face with (IIRC) a
>barbarian horde of, well, considerably more than 20. The party leader
>requested safe passage. The barbarian chieftain's envoy spat at him,
>mocked his ancestry and his eating habits, and led his people in a great
>laugh.
> Eating habits?
> On hearing that particular remark, the cook stepped forward, grabbed the
>envoy's arm, flipped him on his back, tossed away his sword, and
>one-punched him.
> Of course, nobody was more suprised at this than the PCs. Fortunately,
>the party leader kept his head. Raising his voice to be heard, he said.
>"All right, now you've met our *cook.* Does anyone want to take on a
>*real* warrior?"
> As you can guess, they passed unmolested.
>---
>Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
>Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
>
>

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Speedsters
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:28:34 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> R> That's it? Only 4-5 thugs/12 seconds?
>
> R> I think we have a major philosophical disagreement on what a
> R> speedster is here.
>
> I think we have a major philosophical disagreement on what constitutes a
> playable character in a team setting, and what a starting character should
> be capable of accomplishing.
>
Well, since I do Superhero and not Superagent I tend to see thugs and
agents and something that should take a maximum of one action/thug to remove
from the game.
Other supers on the other hand should all come in about equiv to each
other.
It's not to hard to build someone who's average attack will do
24.5 stun/hit (7d6), thus removing the average agent, but when put up against a
super with a 20 or so PD/ED needs several of these attacks to equal the
effect of the super who does an average 35 (10d6) stun/hit. Even better for the
speedster is attacks of 6d6 so that it will take about 1.5 of them to down an
agent. When using autofire and/or area effect combos with an 8-9 speed, you
can get off a good 20-30 of these per turn.
3 of them will do the same damage to a super as one 10d6 does.
so versus another super face to face you're getting about 7 to 10 hits in
for their 5-6. However it's likely you'll never exceed their con and stun them,
but a good hit on you could easily do enough damage to stun you if you taken
measures to balance the speedster.

So it's not a really overbearing character.

Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Ultra Slots
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:32:32 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> On a sort of unrelated not, does anyone know how to build a
> "random" multipower? Something like AD&D's Wand of Wonder.

Buy a multipower with a lim that says every time you go to use a
power, a random one is chosen from the multipower.
It's a zero phase action to switch which power in the pool is 'there',
so this should work.

Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:44:19 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: pod@avalon.net
From: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net>
Subject: Mental Illusions
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Having played a mentalist for the past year, I have had to come up with a
variety of uses for his mental powers. some of the more effective uses have
been with mental illusion.

"Your friend is your enemy, your enemy is your friend"
A lovely little command that can help to turn the tide of a battle.
Suddenly one of your foes starts to beat the tar out of his allies and helps
you to your feet. I liked this effect a lot.

"No really, I'm unconscious."
Need a recovery? A useful tool that may keep you in the fight a
little longer.

"Everyone looks the same."
A delightful tactic for confusing a single opponent at a time.

Heres' a TIP. Try to use mental Illusion as TK. It's all about making your
opponent believe it!
Mento boy: I make the crook believe that i have just TK'd a car into
the air and thrown it at him.
GM: *grumble, grumble, grumble*
GM: For eveyone watching, the crook suddenly falls down and doesn't
move.
ALL: way to go Mento boy.

Here's example of a non-stereo-typical mentalist.
Equip him with a bag and have him claim that he is a magician. His
schtick is that he, and only he, can pull anything out of the bag whenever
he needs it. What he is actually doing is using mental illusion with area
affect all+1, nonselective -1/4. This can allow some freedom for a
character that would otherwise have a tough time trying to justify suddenly
holding a machine gun or likewise unbeleiveable object.

Later-

House of Spackle
pod@avalon.net

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Speedsters
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>>>>> "BW" == Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> writes:

BW> Well, since I do Superhero and not Superagent I tend to see thugs
BW> and agents and something that should take a maximum of one action/thug
BW> to remove from the game.

Consider that in order to take out 5 thugs, an individual has to face 5:1
odds, and that the individual in question will miss occasionally or perhaps
perform a defensive action. Five thugs in a Turn for a Speed 7 character
is not outrageously low. A Speed 4 super using Sweep and Multiple Move By
should be able to take down two thugs per offensive action and still have a
roughly equivalent ammount of time as the Speed 7 character spent on
defensive actions.

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X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 16:01:41 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Adjusting hit locations was:Re: Pre Attacks
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>> In a heroic campaing using hit locations how would anyone model the
>> ability to block a head shot or a vitals shot to an arm or leg or
>> something. Any ideas?
>
>I like that one too... Hmmm... how would one model that? Using your skill
>levels to modify your attacker's hit location?

I use a modified block roll, if successful you choose the spot...looks like
this:

MANEUVER TIME OCV DCV EFFECTS
Interposing Block 1/2 +1 -1 choose area hit


another option is to allow you to use DCV levels to move the roll to the
location desired, maybe 1 per level (so if he rolls a 4, and you would much
rather take it in the hand,you would need 2 levels to move it to area 6)

----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 18:35:03 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Speedsters
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> Are "crocks" and "point scams" different ways to squeeze more value out of
> your points? I'm not familiar with either term, but I'm certainly aware
> (as any Hero player is) that you can play the numbers in many ways....

Various ways to describe power constructions designed to save
points that have a certain aroma about them.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 18:36:43 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Speedsters
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> R> I think we have a major philosophical disagreement on what a
> R> speedster is here.
>
> I think we have a major philosophical disagreement on what constitutes a
> playable character in a team setting, and what a starting character should
> be capable of accomplishing.

I think we have a major philosophical disagreement on whether new
characters necessarily are "new" characters. Forcing Novice Heroes on
players who want to do a decent construction of Mr. Favorite Comic Book
Hero will only cause new players to leave.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 18:39:42 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Ultra Slots
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> > On a sort of unrelated not, does anyone know how to build a
> > "random" multipower? Something like AD&D's Wand of Wonder.
>
> Buy a multipower with a lim that says every time you go to use a
> power, a random one is chosen from the multipower.
> It's a zero phase action to switch which power in the pool is 'there',
> so this should work.

Hmmm, but what is the lim worth, and what does it apply to: The
MP cost, each slots' cost, or both?



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 18:41:02 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Jedi EC?
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To: champ-l@omg.org


> >> And I really dislike the idea of a Focus that is sometimes universal and
> >> sometimes personal. That just screams "cheeze" at me.
>
> TRG> How so? It's a focused MP with "requires a skill roll" and a
> TRG> *NASTY* side effect.
>
> Because a Focus is either one or the other.

Sort of. It can be personal, but apply to a certain personality,
etc. Thor could be done this way if he wasn't so damn powerful that no
one could knock that thing out of his grip. (Almost)

But how are lightsabres not Universal?


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 18:42:13 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Pre Attacks
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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> > True. Acting skill, though? I'd call it a push of STR with an
> > Ego roll.
>
> Push of STR to do the standing up, but an Acting roll to not make it look
> like a struggle that was using all of his strength...

OK, I buy it. I'd allow an Ego roll to not let the strain show.
Or maybe a Con roll.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 18:43:40 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Speedsters
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> That is the strongest argument I have against speedsters with high Speed
> scores: they go through END much more quickly then they apparantly should.
> True, they can afford to "waste" actions on recoveries, but that can be
> countered by a thug holding his action, and there are usually many more
> thugs than speedsters in a fight. And if they waste actions for
> Recoveries, they are not moving or attacking, violating their concepts:
> speedsters *MOVE*, they do not sit around doing nothing.

Well, to take the other side -- they aren't conditioned enough
yet. They tire quickly and really need to work on upping their staying
power. A good way to set up planned growth.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 17:07:40 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Jedi EC?
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 06:41 PM 3/5/98 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:

> But how are lightsabres not Universal?
>
>
While anyone can use one slowly and carefully as a simple cutting
tool (Han Solo in ESB), only a trained Jedi, using the Force, can
wield one effectively as a weapon.

If I were doing "Star Wars Hero", I'd say any non-Jedi who missed
with an attack with a lightsabre would be slicing off a limb of their
own...
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Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 17:24:41 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls
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-- Robert A. West wrote:
> HSR p. 60: Characteristics bought with the Multipower Power Framework
> never add to Figured Characteristics. Characteristics can only be bought
> within other Power Frameworks with special permission from the GM.
>
> This is the only statement in the basic rules on this subject that I can
> find, and it seems crystal clear to me. NFC for CHARs in a MP (probably
> for sanity's sake, more than for game balance) and special permission for
> other frameworks, but you get the figured characterstics

Yea, I went and read the section,... after I sent the post. The
character of mine that has some characteristics in an EC didn't get any figured
stats from them because I didn't think he got them. Maybe I should go back for
another look.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Jedi EC?
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:

TRG> But how are lightsabres not Universal?

That is my point: they *are*, but the way whomever it was had it written
up, it was a Focused multipower with two universal slots and two personal
slots. That is what I groused at.

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Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 18:08:26 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Adjusting hit locations was:Re: Pre Attacks
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

-- Brian Wong wrote:
> The problem here is that it then becomes something common only to
> those who buy these levels. In an actual fight, this is what happens to
> most block attempts.
> I'm almost tempted to make it an automatic thing:
>
> If a defender attempts and fails to block any called shot, then the
> attack hits, but to a random location rather than the called one unless
> the block was failed by more than 5.
>
> This will make this effect very common, which is how it should be.

But if I may ask a question? Are you trying to block the OCV of the
attacker before or after the called shot modifiers are applied? If after, it
gets to be damn easy to block an attack.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 21:12:55 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Ultra Slots
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On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:

>
> > > On a sort of unrelated not, does anyone know how to build a
> > > "random" multipower? Something like AD&D's Wand of Wonder.
> >
> > Buy a multipower with a lim that says every time you go to use a
> > power, a random one is chosen from the multipower.
> > It's a zero phase action to switch which power in the pool is 'there',
> > so this should work.
>
> Hmmm, but what is the lim worth, and what does it apply to: The
> MP cost, each slots' cost, or both?

The MP cost. You are affecting the entire MP with the random slot
determination after all. Now, since a limitation on the pool can also be
applied to the slots, your question answers itself.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 21:19:03 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Jedi EC?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Lizard wrote:

> > But how are lightsabres not Universal?
> >
> While anyone can use one slowly and carefully as a simple cutting
> tool (Han Solo in ESB), only a trained Jedi, using the Force, can
> wield one effectively as a weapon.

Right, anyone can use a lightsaber as a weapon. I've just finished up a
few SW universe novels and it is mentioned that some people carry them for
the 'romantic' effect and the thrill. Also, one of the main characters
gets one and is able to hack people up quite easily, but there is no way
he's going to be block blaster shots.

> If I were doing "Star Wars Hero", I'd say any non-Jedi who missed
> with an attack with a lightsabre would be slicing off a limb of their
> own...

Sorry, no. I've fought with a four foot plus sword, it's pretty hard to
hit yourself. Now, since a lightsaber has little to no mass, it should be
fairly easy to swing, miss and end up *way* out of stance. A non-Jedi,
unused to how a saber performs in combat, could easly overcompensate when
using the weapon, resulting in his overswinging and twisting around while
fighting. Massive DCV minuses. I seriously doubt he'd hit himself
with the blade.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

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Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 21:20:13 -0500 (EST)
From: THE MAD HARLEQUIN <ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Genre questions.
Cc: RAVANOS <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

Just some questions about comic book characters I have...

According to the DC universe, what gives Superman (fleshy supes,
not the neon guy) his powers? He is a 'Solar Battery' if I am not
mistaken... but I remeber hearing something about his invulnrability
being attributed to an 'electro-chemical aura' and his flight a specialed
form of telekenesis. Anyone with the specific comic-book physics for his
powers???

A few months back, someone was working on a Captain America-esque
shield character. I would like to have an enemy who uses a shield for
thrown attacks, hand-to-hand attack, parrying himself, protecting himself
from huge planet smashing nimbuses of fire... of course he would have
extra levels to bounce and such with it...

What ammount of limitation would you assign to the following for
duplication: Only mental statistics/shares physical statistics.

What ammount of a limitation would you assign the two following
for Teleportation UAO: Only versus inanimate objects. Only versus items
of 3 STR of less.
(The additional Limitation: Can not be used to Teleport self is
a moot point, since the character is an animate object--- correct?).

-Jason


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 18:24:15 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Autofire and Trigger
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

Rook wrote:
> The bigger question here is this:
>
> Does the aid add to PD before or after the damage from the attack is done?
>
> After all, it adds before, I can see this construct:
>
> Teleport X" trigger: whenever hit by an attack, which would make you immune to
> attacks unless
> the trigger happens after damage application.

Certainly, the BBB states that if an attack is made up of two or more forms,
one of which is an adjustment power that effects defences, then the non adjusting
powers "go" first. Using this as a very flimsy precedent, the adjustment power done
by the trigger should go last.

As for the teleport, the trigger is being hit. Having been hit, you teleport
taking the damage at the same time, which could leave you stunned, knocked out or
dying somewhere else. It really doesn't matter whether the damage is taken in the
target area or the safe house.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 21:07:57 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Genre questions.
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At 09:20 PM 3/5/98 -0500, THE MAD HARLEQUIN wrote:
>Just some questions about comic book characters I have...
>
> According to the DC universe, what gives Superman (fleshy supes,
>not the neon guy) his powers? He is a 'Solar Battery' if I am not
>mistaken... but I remeber hearing something about his invulnrability
>being attributed to an 'electro-chemical aura' and his flight a specialed
>form of telekenesis. Anyone with the specific comic-book physics for his
>powers???

The "Who's Who in the DC Universe" series was not as specific in most
things as Marvel's "Handbook of the Marvel Universe"; in the DC series,
virtually nothing was actually quantified. However, the author does use
the term "solar battery" and further describes Superman's invulnerability
this way:

"Superman's irradiated cells generate a force field tha extends for a
fraction of an inch around his body, rendering any material within the
field virtually indestructible, such as his skin-tight costume. (Because
his cape extends outside the field, it is easily damaged.)"

So, this would just be a Force Field, perhaps with Absorption of solar
energy feeding it, but you could use "electrochemical" to describe the
special effects of what's going on in his body during this process.

All the book has to say about his Flight is that "he can defy gravity and
fly through an act of will". I think the first time I saw his Flight
capability described as a form of TK was back in the early to mid-'70's in
an old issue of Starlog, perhaps even the first issue. Wish I still had
that one.

Damon


================
Science is when we compare our thoughts with those of
the Universe, to see if they match.
-- Isaac Asimov

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Jedi EC?
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> writes:

MS> Right, anyone can use a lightsaber as a weapon. I've just finished up
MS> a few SW universe novels and it is mentioned that some people carry
MS> them for the 'romantic' effect and the thrill.

"It is an elegant weapon of a simpler time". Out towards the Corporate
Sector, outside of the domain of the Imperium, there are a number of noble
families who's members pride themselves on their fencing. A few even claim
to be as good as the Jedi Knights of the Old Republic. But they do not
parry blaster bolts.

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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover
\ head.

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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:50:39 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Jedi EC?
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>TRG> But how are lightsabres not Universal?
>
>That is my point: they *are*, but the way whomever it was had it written
>up, it was a Focused multipower with two universal slots and two personal
>slots. That is what I groused at.

I am the guilty party on this one. I'll admit to forgetting the 'Vader
parrys a blaster shot from Solo with his gloved hand' incident, but I still
think that for most Jedi the missile deflection requires them to be holding
a lightsaber. The missile _reflection_ part certainly should! I also claim
to be influenced by the Jedi Knight computer game, which is a whole lot of
fun (fave tactic: yanking guns out of Stormtrooper's hands with Force Pull.
They're so helpless after that! :-)

I don't have tremendous problems with foci that are partly universal and
partly personal. Example: A magic amulet that gives telekinetic powers. Any
idiot can put it on and move gross weight, but it takes lots of practice to
manipulate small objects in a fine matter. I'd make it a two-slot
multipower, with one universal and one 'personal' (i.e. only the trained)
slots. Others might just add 'Requires a Skill Roll' to the Fine
Manipulation portion of the power (take note: that's THREE skill rolls to
operate that power; attack roll, skill roll, fine manipulation roll - ick.).
The literary world is replete with such circumstances - any idiot can use
such-and-such powers of an artifact, but only 'the chosen' can use the rest
of the powers (check the book Wizard's First Rule - the magic sword carried
by the protaganist is an excellent example).

Additionally, there's nothing to say that Vader hadn't bought some Missile
Reflection outside of the lightsaber package. No two Jedis are alike and all
that rot. Vader was especially good IMHO at telekinetic tricks (esp. the
telekinetic strangle), so I'll be he's got a big telekinesis EC with full
missile deflection in there.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 19:55:49 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Autofire and Trigger
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> At 07:55 AM 3/5/1998 -0800, Robert A. West wrote:. . .
> >> > AttackmeMan has a PD AID with a trigger . . .
> >
> >Wrong power. Buy Absorption instead. This power is designed to do
> >exactly what you want . . .
>
> Not necessarily. Absorption would increase PD in proportion to the
> attack; Aid will increase PD by the same amount no matter how big or how
> small the attack is that hits AttackmeMan.

OK, I should have said, "This power is designed to do what I infer you
want." Frankly, I can't imagine a justification for the power as
written. Is this some defense that turns on automatically when
threatened, as the shields in some episodes of Star Trek TOS? If so, I
would expect it to turn on full blast with the first attack.

--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 19:59:12 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls
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Robert A. West wrote:

Bob Greenwade wrote:

> It's been a while since I've seen an abbreviation that I couldn't
> decipher, but you just hit me with one, Trev ol' boy. What's IMODO (other
> than a Japanese figure skater)?

I was also puzzled by this one.

>
> >> However, an EC saves, in and of itself no more than half the cost of a
> >> power. Thats a -1 limitation. So why does it give every adjuster out
> >> there a +2 advantage: effects all powers of a SPX for free?
>
> It looks to me like this:
> Assuming all slots are equal, the EC pool gives an effective -1
> Limitation to all Powers in the pool (at least, after the first) because it
> cuts their costs in half.
You are also assuming that no limitations apply to slots that do not also
apply to the pool.

> "Affects All Powers of a Given Special Effect" is an explicitly listed
> +2 Advantage for Adjustment Powers.

Multiplying the cost by three.

> If an Elemental Control causes any Adjustment Powers to affect all of
> its slots at full strength, then an effective -1 Limitation to the Powers
> has, in effect, given any Adjustment Power turned against it a +2 Advantage.

Problem #1: Adjustment powers work against active cost, not real cost.
If Werewolf has Armor, only under Full Moon(-2) and Invulnero has Armor,
no limitations, your Drain Armor is equally effective against each. The
limitation has no relevance.

Problem #2: 1/2 and 3 are not reciprocals.

Each problem is, IMHO, fatal to the argument.

> --
> <------------------------------------------------------->
> Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
> Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
> http://www.erols.com/robtwest

--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Pre Attacks
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 20:08:59 -0800
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On Wednesday, March 04, 1998 7:36 AM, Michael Surbrook wrote:

>On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:
<snip>
>>
>> Actually the one I was referring to was coming up behind him.
Inigo was
>> hardly even paying attention; he just thrust backwards with his
sword, and
>> got the guy in the belly, felling him instantly.
>
>Oh yeah. I was thinking of the same attack, wrong lcoation. I
thought
>that guy had tripped before and was getting up?


You are correct. The man who was behind Inigo had attacked, been
deflected to one side and thrown off balance, and upon turning around
to attack was stabbed.

<snip>

Filksinger

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:13:29 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Jedi EC?
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> TRG> But how are lightsabres not Universal?
>
> That is my point: they *are*, but the way whomever it was had it written
> up, it was a Focused multipower with two universal slots and two personal
> slots. That is what I groused at.

Hmmm, but it is technically legal as well as having various legit
applications. Take a wild-magic user who uses a Special-Wood-Made staff
to focus his energy beams. The staff can also function as a straight-up
4d6 HA. Only he can use the energy beams, anyone can use the HA.

Another option is to place "requires a skill roll" on the
non-universal slots and make the skill so specialized only another jedi
might have it. But I'd put a different Skill Roll on the Light Sabre just
to use it without slicing something important off.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Are Mentalists boring?
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-13,20-22
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 23:16:17 EST
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>> I think my problem is that most
>>Mentalists I've seen in Champions have been of the "vanilla" variety,
>and
>>seems like they don't have a lot of options open to them except to
>mind
>>control the Brick and make him go after his buddies (okay, that's an
>>exaggeration).
>
>That's b/c an effective mentalist isn't cheap - you usually don't have
>the
>points left over for 'flavor' after you've grabbed a decent DEX, EGO,
>SPD,
>Mental Multipower, some armor/force field, etc. - not on 250 points.

Especially if you want to build some custom powers with the BOECV
advantage, +1 gets expensive if you want more than a couple dice. I
once tried working out a mentalist who's powers were based on control of
the target's neural network. One power I wanted to add was the ability
to scramble impulses in the target's optic nerve, aka a flash attack.
Even limiting it to normal sight (and that really should have hit the
entire Sight group), I could only fit 2 dice of flash in her EC.

Leah

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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Adjusting hit locations was:Re: Pre Attacks
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 20:18:12 -0800
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On Wednesday, March 04, 1998 7:14 AM, Curtis Gibson wrote:

>Mike Christodoulou wrote:
>>
<snip>

>
>"Stop saying that!"
>
>One bit in this fight that I have never figured out (elegantly) how
to
>model in HERO:
>Ruegen attacks, and Inigo blocks, but instead of a clean block, or a
>clean chest shot for Ruegen it gets his arm (first two thrusts after
the
>thrown dagger). I could see this as color for the stun mult/location
>roll but....

>
>In a heroic campaing using hit locations how would anyone model the
>ability to block a head shot or a vitals shot to an arm or leg or
>something. Any ideas?


Simple. He used levels, placed towards DCV. The Count didn't attempt
an attack vs hit location, he attempted a critical hit, but because of
the levels of DCV (shown as a partial deflection; remember that SFX
affect Combat Maneuvers) was only able to get two normal hits.

Now, mind you, I use optional rules for Hit Location that partly solve
this problem. Perhaps I'll post them later; I don't know if I have
already.

Filksinger

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:24:33 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Reply-To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Jedi EC?
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> Sorry, no. I've fought with a four foot plus sword, it's pretty hard to
> hit yourself. Now, since a lightsaber has little to no mass, it should be
> fairly easy to swing, miss and end up *way* out of stance. A non-Jedi,
> unused to how a saber performs in combat, could easly overcompensate when
> using the weapon, resulting in his overswinging and twisting around while
> fighting. Massive DCV minuses. I seriously doubt he'd hit himself
> with the blade.

Well, going with the Star Wars RPG info, this is a serious issue.
Mostly to keep the Light Sabre from losing its importance and
awe-inspiration.

The Star Wars Physics reason is that the light sabre has
resistance, unpredictible resistance, from the energetic blade.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."


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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: "Stupid Tricks"
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 20:26:56 -0800
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On Wednesday, March 04, 1998 8:11 AM, Dave Mattingly wrote:


>Here's a classic article on speedster tricks from The Nez Master
><nezmaster@ntr.net>:
>
>Since this is the third request for this that i've gotten in the last
>two
>days, here's my Complete list of speedster powers, which shows there
is
>a
>way to put virtually every power in the book in a speedster
framework.
>(well
>some of them should probably not be allowed, but it looks good)
>
<snip>
>
>Faster than LIght Travel: I included this one as a power that some
>speedsters think they can use, and generally can not. It requires
space
>flight, which few true speedsters actually have (unless it's a true
>flying speedster)


Not quite true. A speedster who is on the surface of a planet, moon,
etc., can use it, because he is "not in atmosphere", which is the "by
the rules" requirement.

<snip>
>
>I hope someone gets something out of this. I had a lot of fun writing
>it.
>As I said, almost any power could work it's way into that Speedster
EC
>or
>multipower, using enough imagination. And I'm sure there's dozens of
>ways
>I have missed. If you enjoyed this let me know!


I did enjoy this. One you missed is Teleportation, with the limitation
that the character actually crosses the intervening space. This allows
for incredibly fast, even FTL, speedsters without spending a truly
obscene amount of points on movement.

Filksinger

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:36:25 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Ultra Slots
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> > Hmmm, but what is the lim worth, and what does it apply to: The
> > MP cost, each slots' cost, or both?
>
> The MP cost. You are affecting the entire MP with the random slot
> determination after all. Now, since a limitation on the pool can also be
> applied to the slots, your question answers itself.

Well, the argument is whether it actually limits every slot or,
alternately, the MP as a whole. I'm not sure if both apply.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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From: "Sean Pavlish" <pavlish@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Jedi EC?
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:48:06 -0500
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>>TRG> But how are lightsabres not Universal?
>>
>>That is my point: they *are*, but the way whomever it was had it written
>>up, it was a Focused multipower with two universal slots and two personal
>>slots. That is what I groused at.
>
>I am the guilty party on this one. I'll admit to forgetting the 'Vader
>parrys a blaster shot from Solo with his gloved hand' incident, but I still
>think that for most Jedi the missile deflection requires them to be holding
>a lightsaber. The missile _reflection_ part certainly should! I also claim


In the Star Wars RPG, the two effects are actually two seperate powers. The
first is a typical Hero Missile Deflection. The second is what they call Absorb
(basically the ability to absorb energy harmlessly). In the game, the first is
much easier than the second, and only a master like Vader could hope to absorb
such a large attack like Han's Heavy Blaster.

Sean

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Sojdev <Sojdev@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 00:19:38 EST
Subject: cybernetics
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Hi guys!

My group and I are just finishing a Rolemaster campaign and getting ready to
start a gothic horror type Hero campaign. One of the characters is from a
cyberpunk style dimension and is naturally in need of some cybernetics, I
haven't played with the Hero system in sometime and would like to know how
other GM's handle cybernetics.

I am new to the list so I apologize in advance for opening a topic I'm sure
has already been discussed.

Sojdev@aol.com

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Adjusting hit locations was:Re: Pre Attacks
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 21:30:52 -0800
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On Wednesday, March 04, 1998 10:28 PM, Rick Holding wrote:
<snip>
>
> But if I may ask a question? Are you trying to block the OCV of the
>attacker before or after the called shot modifiers are applied? If
after, it
>gets to be damn easy to block an attack.


Try this. This rule applies only to Called Shots. If a block would be
effective when used against a character's full OCV before the Called
Shot negatives, then the block works. If it succeeds only against the
OCV _after_ the called shot, the block forces a normal hit location
roll.

Filksinger

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 21:49:06 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Are Mentalists boring?
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To: champ-l@omg.org

> >We seem to be getting varied perspectives in this thread:
>
> 1) Mentalists are boring, they're all the same.
> 2) Mentalists are boring, they're too effective.
> 3) maybe even Mentalists are boring, they're not effective enough. (if
> nobody
> else wants to claim this, I'll claim it.)<

4) Mentalists are potentially exciting. But they are both too powerful and too
weak.

I say too powerful and too weak cause their effects are basically binary.

Most effects in Hero slowly wittle you down until they finish you off.
an EB does stun till you finally hit 0 and go out.
a KA does body until you finally are gone.
A drain slowly reduces the usefulness of it's target.

But most mental attacks, save for ego blast, do absolutly nothing or
have full effect. There is no gradual effect to them. No concept in Hero of
slowly taking over someone's mind, despite it's prevelance in the genre.

A possible fix would be to change the way they build up. If I roll an EGO
+10 result when
trying for EGO+30 I get Ego+10 worth of effect, if the next turn I roll EGO+10
yet again I'm
now up to EGO+20 worth of effect. And so on.

Now to offset this you make the cost of these powers more, or make Mental
Defense an inherant defense.

Anyway, it's an idea. I think something should be done though.

--
Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing


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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 22:15:29 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Are Mentalists boring?
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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Hash: SHA1

At 09:49 PM 3/5/98 -0800, Rook wrote:
>But most mental attacks, save for ego blast, do absolutly nothing or
>have full effect. There is no gradual effect to them. No concept in
Hero of
>slowly taking over someone's mind, despite it's prevelance in the
genre.
>
Transform, Based on Ego, Gradual Effect.

This is the *perfect* model for the way wassisname (Mastermind?) took
over Phoenix back when John Byrne did the X-Men. The illusions were
basically just SFX of the Transform.

Of course, this opens up the gradual-effect-transform container of
invertebrates, i.e, if I turn a man halfway into a frog is he a half-
frog or a man who is halfway to being turned all the way into a frog
with no visible effects? The former makes dramatic sense, but it
opens the way to hideous abuses like:
"Transform, man into 1/32 inch high man, ah, did 4 BODY, so now he's
six inches high, I squish him."
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com>
Subject: Re: Balance (was Re: Powers as Disadvantages)
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 00:16:45 -0600
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To: champ-l@omg.org

>Remnant wrote:
>>
>>
>> And, while I've still got my soap box out of the closet, Hero or any
other
>> game like Hero shouldn't be "BALANCED" it should be heavily weighted to
_FUN
>> FUN FUN_ for everybody that is playing in it. People who aren't playing
in
>> it should not really care. I would personally find it more helpful if
>> instead of replying to a poster that their proposal isn't balanced, why
not
>> point out specifically what you have seen or think will result from their
>> proposal. In other words: Don't Berate, Educate.


Robert A. West wrote:

>Umm....perhaps we use the term "balanced" to mean different things.


Yes, I think we do. If I understand your definitions. I usually use the
word 'fair' or 'fairness' instead of 'balanced' or 'balance.'

>To me, an RPG is balanced if and only if, it has all of the following
>properties over the long haul, assuming that all characters are about the
>same number of XP and that no one has made a horrible mistake that
>weakens his or her character.

<lots of definitions for different aspects of 'Game Balance' snipped.'>

>I assert that a game that is unbalanced, using the above definitions, is
>almost certainly *NOT* going to be fun for *SOMEONE*. This is why I
>worry about game balance. Of course, balance is in large part a
>mechanical thing, and does not substitute for artistry, but no amount of
>artistry is going to make up to Mary that her energy projector is
>outclassed at every turn by Mark's martial artist.


You seem to worry about a lot of _stuff_. :-) But seriously, thank you for
helping to make my point. The definition of "Game Balance" that you have
presented here is so large and varied that simply telling someone that their
rules modification/interpretation is not "balanced" is not as helpful as
telling what problems they have seen/think will happen if they do what they
are suggesting.

PS. My incoming mail server seems to have been down from early Thursday
afternoon to late Friday afternoon. If anyone still has those messages and
would be willing to forward them to me please E-Mail me direct for
confirmation before sending. Thanks.

Alan

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 00:28:18 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Are Mentalists boring?
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> A possible fix would be to change the way they build up. If I roll an EGO
> +10 result when
> trying for EGO+30 I get Ego+10 worth of effect, if the next turn I roll EGO+10
> yet again I'm
> now up to EGO+20 worth of effect. And so on.

Well, TUM does add cumulative for mental powers, something that
the system had sorely lacked.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 00:54:33 -0600
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net>
Subject: Re: Are Mentalists boring?
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Mentalists boring? no way!

one of my favorite characters was a mentalist who ended up using mental
illusions more than any other power. The GM for this game heavily
limited mental powers - in a 60 active pt game, I was only allowed 10
dice of mental illusions. The GM made the mistake of telling me there
was nothing useful I could do with 'only' 10 dice of mental illusions.
Now he won't let me play mentalists in his game anymore ;)

The key to mental illusions is to do the subtle things. If you are
going to do an illusion that you are shooting them with a gun, you may
as well shoot them with a gun.

A couple of my favorite illusions:

Against a villian with a 'big gun' - I did an illusion that somebody had
booby-trapped his gun - that it would explode if he fired it. He wasted
several phases trying to 'disarm' his own gun.

Against the 'Thor clone' - I did an illusion that the next person he
threw his hammer at (he had been focusing on our brick) caught it and
kept it. He spent the rest of the combat trying to 'take back' his
hammer from the brick.

there were a ton more, but you get the idea.. play on the villian's
weaknesses. A direct attack isnt always the most effective attack.


Todd

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 23:35:36 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Balance (was Re: Powers as Disadvantages)
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To: champ-l@omg.org

Remnant wrote:
>
>
> And, while I've still got my soap box out of the closet, Hero or any other
> game like Hero shouldn't be "BALANCED" it should be heavily weighted to _FUN
> FUN FUN_ for everybody that is playing in it. People who aren't playing in
> it should not really care. I would personally find it more helpful if
> instead of replying to a poster that their proposal isn't balanced, why not
> point out specifically what you have seen or think will result from their
> proposal. In other words: Don't Berate, Educate.

Umm....perhaps we use the term "balanced" to mean different things.

To me, an RPG is balanced if and only if, it has all of the following
properties over the long haul, assuming that all characters are about the
same number of XP and that no one has made a horrible mistake that
weakens his or her character.

PC Conflict Balance: No PC can consistently bully another or take
advantage in a way that cannot be answered.

PC Effectiveness Balance: No PC is so effective at any reasonably
common task as to render the remainder of the party irrelevant.

PC Safety Balance: No PC is so powerful that enemies (or other
challenges) that are suited to it are overwhelming to the remaining
characters or a large portion thereof.

PC Specialty Balance: No PC should have secondary abilities that
overshadow another PC designed to specialize in those abilities.

Player Participation Balance: No player should be obliged, more than any
other, to take a back seat. Each player should have a reasonable
expectation that his character can contribute to the success of the run.

Rules Equity Balance: Each player and NPC should be run using the same
set of rules under ordinary conditions. Plot devices and other
exceptions should never subvert the players' trust in the equity of the
game.

Challenge Balance: The players should be challenged enough to make
successes worthwhile and successful enough for the game to be satisfying.
The GM should not be obliged to bring in Deus Ex Machina to achieve
either goal, except in very extraordinary circumstances.

The sub-party rule: What is true above of a single PC should also be true
of small groups of PCs that normally act together.

I assert that a game that is unbalanced, using the above definitions, is
almost certainly *NOT* going to be fun for *SOMEONE*. This is why I
worry about game balance. Of course, balance is in large part a
mechanical thing, and does not substitute for artistry, but no amount of
artistry is going to make up to Mary that her energy projector is
outclassed at every turn by Mark's martial artist.

--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest


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From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 11:08:07
Subject: Re: Role-players and Game-players: GMing tips
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org


>As more comes to me (and it is getting a little late right now), I'll
>write more... but I know that everyone out there has ideas they can add on
>how to achieve the right synergy in a campaign. What are your tips of the
>trade?
>

My only advice is to not determine the genre- let the players do it through
character creation and early play.
This is a wiggy trick, but it pays off, although you might end up with
a longer or shorter time scale in your campaign, as the pc's may
die pretty quick. The idea is it's hard to do a formal 'request'-
'what type of genre do you want?' to people who are players and hence
probably not as familiar with that sort of ooc refrence to story structure.
Instead, use what they do know- making characters- and work off their
ideas for that.
Donna O'Dea
borg.cqu.edu.au

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From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 11:12:49
Subject: Re: Blue Booking
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

At 08:52 AM 3/3/98 -0600, you wrote:
>
>I used to blue book during the introductory parts of the game. The trick
>is to make sure that ALL of the players are passing you their books back and
>forth, even if some of them are just stopping muggings or dealing with NPC's.
>Of course, I remember a couple of times of having to explicitly write
>"Please hurry and respond with this, it's the actual leadin to the episode."
>
>And blue booking is not really like playing a PBEM in person, but more like
>conducting private conversations with the GM about what is going on with your
>character. Actually, or conducting private conversations with other player
>characters. Of course, you can do it anyway you like.
>
>Curt
>
>

I've found that blue-booking in-game with a large group can take a bit of
the stress of the 'idle player' problem. .. it gives you a little
breathing room to collect your thoughts when pc's are in different
areas. Another idea is the 'paranoia' play in which you concentrate
on one group and bluebook with a single individual, who could be doing
anything for all his friends know. . . . . . or his pc could just be
unconcious.



Donna O'Dea
borg.cqu.edu.au

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From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 11:20:48
Subject: Re: Blue Booking
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org


>What is there about blue-booking that would make it attractive or useful
>to do it at the session itself? I've never read 'Strike Force' so my
>conception of it is based on descriptions from this list and the frp
>newsgroups - I might be missing a piece...
>
>


like i said/say/will say, use it when a character's offline in the game,
so the players has something to do. . .
but be sure the bluebook's interesting(like a flashback) so it
keeps them in the mood.


>J
>
>"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
> To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
>
>
>
>
Donna O'Dea
borg.cqu.edu.au

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 11:51:30
Subject: Re: Blue Booking
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 12:03 PM 3/3/98 -0800, you wrote:

> With the hopes that Aaron Allston doesn't mind (well, he didn't mind
>having all the rest of his GMing tips from that book put into the BBB), I
>think I'll just copy his description here (note that the below text is
>Aaron's; I'll tell you when it's me again):
>
>-===-
>
> Blue-Booking
><smip>
> Blue-booking does have its dangers, though. It can be terribly
>addictive to some players -- Romantics and Builders especially.



>}Also, the
>GM doesn't want to blue-book for just one player int he middle of an active
>game; either you're running a game or conducting a blue-boopking session --
>you can't do both at the same time and keep everything moving to the
>satisfaction of everyone involved.
>

Not true. You can easily do substantial notes while doing straight
dialogue to the group, and it's the best way a know to keep ppl
active while their pc's are out of the loop.


>
Donna O'Dea
borg.cqu.edu.au

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 06:02:18 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Are Mentalists boring?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 08:36 AM 3/5/1998 -0800, Dave Mattingly wrote:
>And Mind Thief not only reads your mind -- he keeps it! You know nothing
>afterwards.

We gotta take away this guy's library card! ;-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 06:09:08 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Are Mentalists boring?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 09:49 PM 3/5/1998 -0800, Rook wrote:
>But most mental attacks, save for ego blast, do absolutly nothing or
>have full effect. There is no gradual effect to them. No concept in Hero of
>slowly taking over someone's mind, despite it's prevelance in the genre.
>
> A possible fix would be to change the way they build up. If I roll an EGO
>+10 result when
>trying for EGO+30 I get Ego+10 worth of effect, if the next turn I roll
EGO+10
>yet again I'm
>now up to EGO+20 worth of effect. And so on.
>
> Now to offset this you make the cost of these powers more, or make Mental
>Defense an inherant defense.
>
>Anyway, it's an idea. I think something should be done though.

The Ultimate Mentalist had some nice ideas for "incremental effects" for
Mind Control (Coercion), Mind Scan (Mind Search), and Telepathy (Mind
Probe). These allow for partial effects for insufficient Effect Rolls, but
also give some ability to fight the effects of successful effects. I'm
allowing mentalists to choose which of the two ways their particular Powers
work (absolute or incremental) when the Powers are bought, with a +1/4
Advantage if it can be determined at each use. (So far, though, I have no
mentalists so I can't tell you how balanced that is.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:11:06 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: cybernetics
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To: champ-l@omg.org

On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, Sojdev wrote:

> My group and I are just finishing a Rolemaster campaign and getting ready to
> start a gothic horror type Hero campaign. One of the characters is from a
> cyberpunk style dimension and is naturally in need of some cybernetics, I
> haven't played with the Hero system in sometime and would like to know how
> other GM's handle cybernetics.

I have written quite a bit of material on cybernetics and cyberware for my
anime/cyberpunk game. There is a sample cahmpter on my homepage (see
below), if you want to see more, e-mail me directly.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:21:11 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Subject: Coming Soon!
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

The Big Trouble in Little China sourcebook!

Honest! I finally sat down and finished the intro and have about 4-5
character sheets finished. If all goes well, I'll start posting later
today.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 06:26:30 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: cybernetics
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

---Sojdev wrote:
>
> Hi guys!
>
> My group and I are just finishing a Rolemaster campaign and getting
ready to
> start a gothic horror type Hero campaign. One of the characters is
from a
> cyberpunk style dimension and is naturally in need of some
cybernetics, I
> haven't played with the Hero system in sometime and would like to
know how
> other GM's handle cybernetics.
>
> I am new to the list so I apologize in advance for opening a topic
I'm sure
> has already been discussed.
>
> Sojdev@aol.com

You might want to try and find a copy of Cyber Hero, even though the
Net Running rules bugged me, the cybernetics stuff was pretty clean.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 9:31:04 -0500
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Going To the Source
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 11:58 AM 3/5/98 -0500, David Fair wrote:
>
>What titles of comics do people in your gaming circles read? What other
>books/novels? What movies? What are the most helpful to your Gm'ing?
>Plotting? Characterization?


Most of my players have been casual comics readers, picking up a
series now and then or fancying themselves comics collectors for a
year or two then getting distracted by something else. I'm a
pretty big comics reader myself; while my habit dwindled to almost
nothing about three years ago when comics hit the low of a creative
slump, quality comics and my comics habit have bounced back quite
a bit in the last year or so.

Among my favorite comics at present are Starman, JLA, Astro City,
Thunderbolts, Avengers, Hitman, and Quantum & Woody. (If you
read comics and don't know Q&W, check it out!) I won't list my
entire monthly pull - I get about 4-10 comics a week - but it's
largely DC stuff, with a few Marvel books and an assortment of
other publishers'.

I don't read as much SF and fantasy as I used to. My reading habits
broadened in college & grad school, so I'm more likely these days
to be reading 18th or 19th century novels, psychology, history, or
anything else that catches my interest. Lately I've been reading a
number of books on piracy - it was in the midst of this reading
that I got inspired to actually run a pirate campaign.

I don't think I've ever run a game with exclusively "serious"
comics fans. I've always wanted to, especially when I've
considered running games with existing characters, but I just
don't know that many comics fans/gamers. I did have great fun
running the DC Heroes Watchmen modules (which I adapted into
the Hero System, of course) with a group of gamers who'd all
read and loved Watchmen - it was fun to see people really get
into the roles of those characters.

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 06:35:46 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Are Mentalists boring?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 09:40 AM 3/5/1998 -0800, Lizard wrote:
>I think part of the issue is that most campaigns aren't set up to
>deal with mentalists, unless they're in an all-mentalist campaign.
>Thus, it is relatively easy for Mentalist Boy to 'get away' with very
>simple uses of his powers. Imagine, if you will, a campaign where
>almost no one had a DEX over 14 or defenses over 8....Flame Man (Dex
>24, 10d6 EB) would simply blast, next target, blast, next target,
>etc.
>
>If there's a mentalist on the hero team, the GM ought to give
>gratuitious Mental Defense to the bad guys, or make sure there's a
>mentalist on each villain team.

Personally, I just give villains whatever EGO seems appropriate to the
character, balancing their personality in terms of "force of will" with the
likelihood of having already encountered heroes or rival villains who are
mentalists.
The solidly mentalist heroes in the Champions Universe that I can find
are Brainstorm (Protectors), Minstrel (Pacific Sentinels), Oracle (Atlantic
Sentinels), Peristroika (New Guard), Sirius (Sentinels HQ), Solitaire
(Champions), and Victrix (Freedom Squad, though I've moved her in my
campaign to a Los Angeles group called LANCERS). There are also a few VPP
heroes (like the Duke) and a couple of Brits with individual Ego-based
Powers, so these count at a lesser extent. (I'm sure someone else on the
list will come up with at least one or two I missed as well.)
Out of a field of roughly 160 published heroes, that's not a whole lot,
so Mental Defense will be uncommon outside villains who regularly run into
these characters' teams, who have mentalist teammates that they can train
with, or who are mentalists themselves.
At the same time, if the PC team gets a mentalist, then the "regular"
villains (those who show up relatively frequently) will start getting
practice at facing that mentalist, and will probably get stronger EGOs (if
only slightly so, as the mentalist forces them to exercise their "brain
muscles" every time they face each other) and possibly a smidgen of Mental
Defense. They might even get mentalists of their own (as Deathstroke did).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 06:43:46 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Blue Booking
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 11:51 AM 3/6/1998, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
>> Blue-Booking
>><smip>
>> Blue-booking does have its dangers, though. It can be terribly
>>addictive to some players -- Romantics and Builders especially.
>
>
>
>>}Also, the
>>GM doesn't want to blue-book for just one player int he middle of an active
>>game; either you're running a game or conducting a blue-boopking session --
>>you can't do both at the same time and keep everything moving to the
>>satisfaction of everyone involved.
>>
>
>Not true. You can easily do substantial notes while doing straight
>dialogue to the group, and it's the best way a know to keep ppl
>active while their pc's are out of the loop.

I do agree more with you than with Aaron on this one. Just so the GM
doesn't enter any long soliloquies during the blue-booking or overdo it in
some other way, this shouldn't be a problem.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 06:51:15 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 07:59 PM 3/5/1998 -0800, Robert A. West wrote:
>> It looks to me like this:
>> Assuming all slots are equal, the EC pool gives an effective -1
>> Limitation to all Powers in the pool (at least, after the first) because it
>> cuts their costs in half.
>You are also assuming that no limitations apply to slots that do not also
>apply to the pool.

In which case the Limitation does become larger, if my Relative Math
figures are correct.

>> "Affects All Powers of a Given Special Effect" is an explicitly listed
>> +2 Advantage for Adjustment Powers.
>
>Multiplying the cost by three.

As opposed to a -1 Limitation dividing the cost by two (as you
implicitly acknowledge).

>> If an Elemental Control causes any Adjustment Powers to affect all of
>> its slots at full strength, then an effective -1 Limitation to the Powers
>> has, in effect, given any Adjustment Power turned against it a +2
Advantage.
>
>Problem #1: Adjustment powers work against active cost, not real cost.
>If Werewolf has Armor, only under Full Moon(-2) and Invulnero has Armor,
>no limitations, your Drain Armor is equally effective against each. The
>limitation has no relevance.
>
>Problem #2: 1/2 and 3 are not reciprocals.
>
>Each problem is, IMHO, fatal to the argument.

I don't see how Problem #1 is relevant.
And Problem #2 is *part* of the argument.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 07:08:40 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Going To the Source (WAS: Are Mentalists boring?)
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At 11:58 AM 3/5/1998 -0500, David Fair wrote:
>What titles of comics do people in your gaming circles read? What other
>books/novels? What movies? What are the most helpful to your Gm'ing?
>Plotting? Characterization?

Because of budget considerations that are only just now easing up, most
of my input has been through TV, and broadcast TV at that. A friend of
mine has cable and has been (enthusiastically) letting me tape the weekend
broadcasts of Road Rovers on Cartoon Network; otherwise I'm limited to the
Batman and Superman series, Silver Surfer, the current Star Trek
franchises, Babylon 5, Diagnosis Murder, and Homicide: Life on the Streets.
(We're big mystery fans as well as sci-fi and superhero.) Oh, and of
course Pinky and the Brain.
I got a couple of Star Trek novels for Christmas (Q-Squared and Dark
Mirror), and bought Sweet Myth-tery of Life last week. I finished all of
them. I've been keeping track of anything dealing with Access or the
Amalgam Universe(s), but I haven't bought any comics in quite a while (the
first run of Amalgam comics were the only thing in about 7 years; I missed
getting the second run).
Of the aforementioned, I most highly recommend Road Rovers. Setting
aside the comedy for a while (and it is both amble and excellent), this is
set up as a "straddle" between a straight superhero and "super agents"
setting. There are some interesting ideas for plot hooks and plot twists,
surprisingly good characterization for something that would seem
superficial at first glance (especially given the level of comedy schtick),
and some outstanding examples of good story pacing.
Close behind this I would place Babylon 5, though I think most of the
folks here are familiar enough with this that I don't have to go into much
detail.
---
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Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 07:23:59 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Speedsters
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At 03:23 PM 3/5/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>Message text written by "Tim R. Gilberg"
>> I like the concept and creation, but the powers need work. Using
>crocks and point scams to achieve 250 points doesn't fly IMC.<
>
>Are "crocks" and "point scams" different ways to squeeze more value out of
>your points? I'm not familiar with either term, but I'm certainly aware
>(as any Hero player is) that you can play the numbers in many ways....

They're different ways to squeeze more value out of your points, usually
as a matter of bending the rules in a way that gives more value that it's
worth. A truly blatant example would be an Ego Attack with a -1/2
Limitation that it doesn't work against inanimate objects.
---
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Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:25:57 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Battle tactics/plans
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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I've seen some messages talking about how if you can distract one opponent
with mental illusions, you can really disrupt the opposing team's tactics.
This got me thinking...do you (GMs) come up with precise tactics for the
entire villain team ahead of time? I usually just plop the villains on the
map and a few of them might team-up for maneuvers like the cannonball
express or entangling an opponent so that the brick can wallop 'em. If you
normally come up with a battle plan for your villains, I'd love to hear
some examples.

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Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 07:32:09 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: Ultra Slots
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At 03:03 PM 3/5/1998 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> On a sort of unrelated not, does anyone know how to build a
>"random" multipower? Something like AD&D's Wand of Wonder.

Just apply a -1/2 Limitation, "Random Switching." :-]
(The value is based on the VPP Limitation "No Choice Over Power
Selection.")
---
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Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 07:36:20 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Balance (was Re: Powers as Disadvantages)
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Remnant wrote:

> Robert A. West wrote:
>
> >Umm....perhaps we use the term "balanced" to mean different things.
>
> Yes, I think we do. If I understand your definitions. I usually use the
> word 'fair' or 'fairness' instead of 'balanced' or 'balance.'

To me, balance is a largely mechanical matter of the rules, campaign
limits and interpretations. Fairness extends much further, into a
philosophy of GMing that affects scenario design and play. It is tough
to have a fair game that is unbalanced, but it is possible to have an
balanced game adjudicated in an unfair way.

> > [My attempt at a rigorous definition snipped]

>
> You seem to worry about a lot of _stuff_. :-) But seriously, thank you for
> helping to make my point. The definition of "Game Balance" that you have
> presented here is so large and varied that simply telling someone that their
> rules modification/interpretation is not "balanced" is not as helpful as
> telling what problems they have seen/think will happen if they do what they
> are suggesting.

In practice, it is far more compact, IMHO, than my attempt at rigor may
have made it look. The same unbalanced situation can easily result in
violating any or all of the aspects of balance that I cited. Is it
really that inobvious in most cases why unbalanced powers are bad?



--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest

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X-Authentication-Warning: snowy.owlnet.rice.edu: chip owned process doing -bs
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:57:20 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Autofire and Trigger
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On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, Mark Lemming wrote:

> Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> >
> > > > Nope, it hits after. It is triggered by the attack hitting. You
> > > > could do something like T-Port, triggered by dodging which would make you
> > > > immune to a first attack of the phase. However, you could abort to a
> > > > T-Port anyway, so . . .
> > >
> > > I didn't think you could abort to movement powers. That's why Dive for
> > > Cover is a manuver.
> >
> > Oops. Can you Dive for Cover with a T-Port, though?
>
> It seems a common enough house rule, but I don't think it's official.
> Our group allows the T-port dive with an unmodified Dex roll.
>
> Tangent house rules:
> If one has a delay and desires to dive for cover they do not have to declare
> how far they wish to dive, but can dive however far they make their dex roll
> by.

I have a couple of house rules to add to the fire:

First, you can't delay more than a half-phase, and you have to declare
what will break the hold. However, with a successful Tactics roll, you can
hold a full phase (although you still have to declare what will break the
hold). If you make your tactics roll by half, you get to break a hold for
a different reason. The idea is that a good tactician knows in advance
what to look for, and gets benefit out of watching what other people do.
Plus, it makes tactics an actually useful combat skill, not just window
dressing.

On diving for cover: you are considered prone in the target hex unless you
make a Breakfall roll or an Acrobatics roll. However, in some situations
Acrobatics is at a penalty or not allowed. The SFX of using your Breakfall
is a roll to feet or a simple leap away from the original hex, and for
acrobatics, a backflip or other coolness to get away from the hex. You can
also use either skill as a complementary roll for DFC, however then you
would come up prone in the target hex unless you had the other skill...
Furthermore, you can by combat skill levels in dive for cover (2 pts.)
Another option is is a 3-point level, almost always relegated to
Acrobatics, Breakfall, and DFC.

On Teleport for cover: you are considered "prone" (or disoriented) in the
target hex unless you make a Teleport Skill roll. Hate me, I use Use
Powers (although most characters still don't purchase them). If your
teleport is within your half-move and you make the roll by half, you still
get a half-phase on your next action phase (you only aborted half of your
phase).

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 17:25:28 +0000
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Autofire and Trigger
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Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
> > > Nope, it hits after. It is triggered by the attack hitting. You
> > > could do something like T-Port, triggered by dodging which would make you
> > > immune to a first attack of the phase. However, you could abort to a
> > > T-Port anyway, so . . .
> >
> > I didn't think you could abort to movement powers. That's why Dive for
> > Cover is a manuver.
>
> Oops. Can you Dive for Cover with a T-Port, though?

It seems a common enough house rule, but I don't think it's official.
Our group allows the T-port dive with an unmodified Dex roll.

Tangent house rules:
If one has a delay and desires to dive for cover they do not have to declare
how far they wish to dive, but can dive however far they make their dex roll
by.

-Mark

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 09:54:48 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Battle tactics/plans
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At 10:25 AM 3/6/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>I've seen some messages talking about how if you can distract one opponent
>with mental illusions, you can really disrupt the opposing team's tactics.
> This got me thinking...do you (GMs) come up with precise tactics for the
>entire villain team ahead of time? I usually just plop the villains on the
>map and a few of them might team-up for maneuvers like the cannonball
>express or entangling an opponent so that the brick can wallop 'em. If you
>normally come up with a battle plan for your villains, I'd love to hear
>some examples.

Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. It depends on whether I think the
villains would have a prepared battle plan or not. A lot of NPC villain
teams just give each member a specific task to do (the resident mentalist
disrupts other mentalists, the brick throws large objects, the flying
energy projector keeps an aerial view and gives help where needed, etc.).
I've used specific tactics in the past, but other than the trick against
the werewolf that I mentioned earlier I can't think of anything.
---
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 06 Mar 98 18:10:18
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Autofire and Trigger
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On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:26:49 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:

>At 11:33 AM 3/4/1998 PST, Salmon, David W wrote:
>>> Okay guys ... how would you rule on this example ...
>>>
>>> AttackmeMan has a PD AID with a trigger which goes off each time he is
>>> hit by an attack. The trigger is then automatically reset for the next
>>> attack which hits him. Can you see where this is going yet ???
>>> BadguyintightsMan hits AttackmeMan with an Autofire RKA vs PD and hits
>>> him 3 out of five times. Now, does AttackmeMan get to roll his AID 3
>>> times or one?? The question comes up because only one attack roll was
>>> made but he was physically hit 3 times. I don't want to risk
>>> restarting the "Great Linked" debate, but if you reply, does your
>>> response take into account linked powers?? Thanks in advance for your
>>> great wisdom.
>
> Just offhand I'd say that the Aid only goes off once. For one thing, I
>see nothing in the writeup of Trigger that allows it to automatically reset
>itself.

You are correct: it doesn't reset itself, it's a once-only event. Of
course, you could buy it Continuous, Uncontrolled (or Independent), 0
End Persistent, in which case it would.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Dave Mattingly\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 06 Mar 98 18:13:24
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Autofire and Trigger
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On Thu, 5 Mar 1998 05:22:23 -0800, Dave Mattingly wrote:

>> AttackmeMan has a PD AID with a trigger which goes off each time he is
>> hit by an attack. The trigger is then automatically reset for the next
>> attack which hits him.
>
>It sounds to me like what you really want is an Absorb, not a Triggered
>Aid.
>
>Here's a little about that from my Adjustment Powers article at
>http://www.geocities.com/area51/cavern/1905/haym08.html:
>
>Instead of buying a large absorb that can either absorb one big attack
>or several smaller attacks
>throughout a phase, autofire absorb can handle several small attacks.
>Or, a larger absorb with a -1/2
>limitation could only absorb half its dice per attack.
>
>Example: Bounceback has a 6d6 Absorb from physical damage into his
>superleap. For the same
>cost, his teammate Absorbo the Great has a 3d6 autofire absorb with
>increased maximum from
>energy damage into his energy blast. Bounceback is hit by a 12d6 punch
>for 14 body, and absorbs
>all 14 points. Absorbo is hit by a 12d6 blaster rifle, and can only
>absorb 11 of the 14 points. Absorbo
>lost out. The next day, Bounceback is ambushed by 6 agents, and four of
>them shoot him with
>rubber bullets for 5, 7, 8, and 9 body. Bounceback rolls his 6d6, and
>can only absorb 23 of the 29
>points in that phase. Absorbo is shot and hit by with blaster rifles
>from 3 agents twice (since they
>have a higher speed that he does), for 5, 5, 6, 7, 9, and 9 body.
>Absorbo absorbs 5, 5, 6, 9, and 9
>points (only five shots can be absorbed per Absorbo's phase unless the
>autofire was bought up
>higher), and gains his maximum of 30 points.

Why does Absorbo automatically get to absorb all five attacks?
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 13:31:01 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: cybernetics
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To: champ-l@omg.org

On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, John Desmarais wrote:

> You might want to try and find a copy of Cyber Hero, even though the
> Net Running rules bugged me, the cybernetics stuff was pretty clean.

Sorry, the cyber rules in Cyber Hero are trash. the mechanics used are
very questionable with high dubious Limitations Applied the the powers
used for the cyberware.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Jedi EC?
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Date: 06 Mar 1998 13:56:16 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:

TRG> Hmmm, but it is technically legal as well as having various legit
TRG> applications. Take a wild-magic user who uses a Special-Wood-Made
TRG> staff to focus his energy beams. The staff can also function as a
TRG> straight-up 4d6 HA. Only he can use the energy beams, anyone can use
TRG> the HA.

I disagree, and you have described why. The staff is used to focus (not
Focus) his energy beams, but it is not the ultimate source of those beams.
The power (Energy Blast) is bought for himself, but it has a Focus
limitation (the staff).

TRG> Another option is to place "requires a skill roll" on the
TRG> non-universal slots and make the skill so specialized only another
TRG> jedi might have it. But I'd put a different Skill Roll on the Light
TRG> Sabre just to use it without slicing something important off.

Weapon Familiarity: light saber. As I mentioned elsewhere, Jedi and
Sidhe[1] Knights[2] are not the only ones that use the weapon. And Luke
was able to effectively use his father's light saber with very little
training (but as I also said elsewhere, he was learning Spatial Awareness).


[1] "Sith" is an archaic spelling of "Sidhe", both pronounced "shee".

[2] What as Darth Vader's title is "Dark Lord of the Sith", one would
expect him to have underlings or vassals.

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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds.
\

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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 11:16:40 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
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OK, so what can a lightsabre *do*?

a)HKA, pretty nasty one, too -- 4d6?
b)Missile Deflection
c)Skill levels w/acrobatics -- remember when Luke did a flip and used
his lightsabre as a sort of pole (why didn't it cut through the
ground?)?
d)Aid to Presence -- 3d6 at least, if you know how to use it. What do
you think Obi-Wan's Prescence attack was after he sliced up the thug
at the Cantina?

As for universal/personal -- I'd call it somewhere in between.
"Usable by any Jedi".
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Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 11:30:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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Lizard writes:
> OK, so what can a lightsabre *do*?
>
> a)HKA, pretty nasty one, too -- 4d6?
I'd actually call it a no-range (or limited-range) RKA -- it's not like hitting
a damage shield with a lightsaber should hurt you, nor is there any
particularly good reason for strength to add to damage.
> b)Missile Deflection
Missile deflection isn't really a power of the lightsaber per se, I think its
just that the lightsaber is tougher than other materials you could use to block
with.
> c)Skill levels w/acrobatics -- remember when Luke did a flip and used
> his lightsabre as a sort of pole (why didn't it cut through the
> ground?)?
Nah, it just counts as a tool, for normal tool bonuses. Maybe 1" stretching.
> d)Aid to Presence -- 3d6 at least, if you know how to use it. What do
> you think Obi-Wan's Prescence attack was after he sliced up the thug
> at the Cantina?
We call this 'violent action' and 'reputation: jedi knight'. Neither of these
things is intrinsic to the lightsaber.
>
> As for universal/personal -- I'd call it somewhere in between.
> "Usable by any Jedi".

It's universal, it's just that jedi have bonuses with them.

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From: "Michael Rath (Volt Computer)" <a-mirath@microsoft.com>
Subject: Battle plans
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 11:50:35 -0800
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At 10:25 AM 3/6/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>I've seen some messages talking about how if you can distract one opponent
>with mental illusions, you can really disrupt the opposing team's tactics.
> This got me thinking...do you (GMs) come up with precise tactics for the
>entire villain team ahead of time? I usually just plop the villains on the
>map and a few of them might team-up for maneuvers like the cannonball
>express or entangling an opponent so that the brick can wallop 'em. If you
>normally come up with a battle plan for your villains, I'd love to hear
>some examples.

In a campaign that I co-ran a few years ago, I had a villian group that had
fought the heroes twice before. First battle the heroes were soundly
defeated, but the villians had to leave because the FBI with thier
superpower suppression nets arrived. Second time it was a standoff.

When it came time for the third battle, the villians had viewed every video
tape, read every newspaper, and memorized every boigraphy they could find
about the heroes. In the villian group was a brick that could tunnel, had
spatial awareness-discriminatory-only to objects touching ground-linked to
his tunneling. The energy projector was like the Human Torch but powers
were always on and he had desol. An illusionist with both images and mental
illusions. The leader was a flying energy projector with suppression
powers. The heroes consisted of a flying energy projector/martial artist; a
teleporting, invisible, energy projector; a gadgeteer; a super-soldier with
sea creature powers; and a brick of living crystal.

In the third confrontation, the villians knowing that only thier brick could
detect the invisible one set up a fake bank heist to lure the heroes to
thier ambush. The Torch-clone was also desol near the ambush site. The
villians paired up against the heroes very much to thier favor. Tunneling
brick vs. invisible teleporter. Illuisonist vs. crystal brick,who took x2
effect from mental attacks. Torch vs. super-soldier, who had a problem of
too much heat draining his powers. The villian flyer to grabb the gadgeteer
and to drop her from a great height then engage the hero flyer, gadgeteer
had no flying/gliding/superleap gadgets on hand.

The battle went like this: Crystal brick is hit with mental illusions to
think that the flyer's positions are reversed and begins throwing dumpsters
into his team mate. The tunneling brick erupts from ground, 8d6
explosion-double knockback, right under invisible hero. Gadgeteer hits
ground going to GM option and bleeding. Squid boy--as we called the
super-soldier--was actually able to blind Flame--torch clone, but he can't
punch Flame since he went desol. Hero flyer, Condor, has to dodge both his
brick teammate and villian flyer, Airborne. Illusionist fails to make squid
boy think crystal brick, Crystalis, is the enemy. Tunneling brick punches
invisible hero, Millenia, to GM option. Flame recovers from flash and in a
fit of rage--love those disads--blasts closest hero, Crystalis--who takes
next to no damage from energy based attacks--giving away his position. Squid
boy is suprised by tunneling brick, Tank, and is spattered, yes splattered
(he has regen) all over the parking lot. Then as luck would have it, the
dice turned against the villians. Crystalis missing Condor with a small car
hits Airborne who was unaware of attack and took extra stun causing him to
fall. With that opening, Condor does a move through on the Illusionist
whose defenses don't activate and seriously wounds him. Crystalis takes a
punch from Tank and a blast from Flame but is not down. He recovers from
the illusion and punches Flame into next week. Condor flies over to ensure
Airborne is out of it and Crystalis squares off with Tank. Their STR and
defenses are fairly equal, Tank with 10 more STR and and Crystalis with 25%
dam reduction. Condor stablizes the gadgeteer, Marigold, and checks on the
Illusionist, Mindwipe, to ensure he won't die. Tank takes a PRE attack from
Crystalis and flees.

Well I thought that the villains had pretty much had it pinned down to whom
would win and how, but as the saying goes "best laid plans of mice and men".

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 13:59:45 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
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> a)HKA, pretty nasty one, too -- 4d6?

RKA no-range. There was no reason to add STR damage.

> c)Skill levels w/acrobatics -- remember when Luke did a flip and used
> his lightsabre as a sort of pole (why didn't it cut through the
> ground?)?

Jedi control over the blade's energy.

> d)Aid to Presence -- 3d6 at least, if you know how to use it. What do
> you think Obi-Wan's Prescence attack was after he sliced up the thug
> at the Cantina?

Violent display plus display of powers, no AID needed.

> As for universal/personal -- I'd call it somewhere in between.
> "Usable by any Jedi".

But non Jedi can and have used them.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Are Mentalists boring?
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:16:13 -0800 (PST)
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> The Ultimate Mentalist had some nice ideas for "incremental effects" for
> Mind Control (Coercion), Mind Scan (Mind Search), and Telepathy (Mind
> Probe). These allow for partial effects for insufficient Effect Rolls, but
> also give some ability to fight the effects of successful effects. I'm

Really?

What page/section? I haven't had a chance to read through that book fully yet.

Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing

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Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net>
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:11:16 +0000
Subject: Re: Are Mentalists boring?
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> Morpheus, the dream warrior, can only manipulate minds when
they're
> asleep, and can send opponents to sleep.
>

Heh. I once played a fantasy character with a power similar to that.
She belonged to the Brotherhood of Shadow Arts, which operated
mostly at night using variations on darkness powers. I expanded the
college (created by the GM) by inventing several powers based on her
ability to find a person by looking for their dreams (Mind Scan), and
affecting them by interacting with those same dreams (Mental
Illusions), and communicating with friends in dreams (Telepathy).
I got the idea from things Merlin did in the movie "Excalibur"

Arthur: Are you a dream?

Merlin: A dream, yes. A nightmare to others!

> Scanner is a receptive telepath, and cannot send. This power
> manifests itself as telepathy, danger sense, find weakness, etc.

<nod> My friend Denise runs a character like that--she's a
"receiving empath", and can pick up emtions but can't send them or
manipulate them--her powers are Mind Scan, Danger Sense (from
sentients only), Passive Empathy (always on, she can't shut it off),
Touch Empathy.

My mentalist, Desire, is a precog as well as a projective empath. In
addition to precognition, she also has Danger Sense, all attacks,
defined as "flashes of insight."

>
> And Mind Thief not only reads your mind -- he keeps it! You know
> nothing afterwards.

Cool idea! Sounds like a Major Transform with a mental special
effect. My old GM used that to create the "Flashy Thing" from
MiB--it is really cool.

----------------
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Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

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From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:16:37 +0000
Subject: Re: Are Mentalists boring?
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> A possible fix would be to change the way they build up. If I
> roll an EGO
> +10 result when
> trying for EGO+30 I get Ego+10 worth of effect, if the next turn I
> roll EGO+10 yet again I'm now up to EGO+20 worth of effect. And so
> on.

Hmm. Interesting idea, Rook. I'm going to have to suggest it to my
players as a potential house rule. TUM suggests making Mental
Defense a figured characteristic like PD and ED, but one that is not
"Always On", ie the person has to activate it.

----------------
Theala Sildorian
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Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

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From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:26:52 +0000
Subject: Re: Doing 'research'
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> Which brings up another unrelated topic: How often do people
consult
> 'source material' when looking for inspiration? I'm gearing up to
> run a heavily LSH-influenced supers game, so of course I've been
> rereading classic 1960s reprints. But I've also been checking out
> science fiction of the 30s, 1950s EC comics, a bit of Star Wars, and
> anything else needed to get the 'classic' SF feel -- when the future
> consisted of mile-high shining skyscrapers, air-cars, and
> wagon-wheel space stations.

I do research all the time: in fiction, tv shows, movies, novels,
short stories, comic books, non-fiction of all types, and other RPG's
to see what other people are doing in their roleplaying. I
shamelessly steal every good idea I come across. I also listen to
music almost constantly--often a few measures will spark a "moment"
in my head, which can be the basis of an adventure.

For example, one day I was listening to the soundtrack from Tommorrow
Never Dies (I use soundtracks alot as background music when I run
games as well). I was trying to think of something to do with a
vampire NPC I was introducing when the track "Surrender" came on--I
used that track as background music to explain to the players how
overwhelmingly seductive she was as she gave a "concert" to a room of
potential victims :)

----------------
Theala Sildorian
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Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

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From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:27:36 +0000
Subject: (Fwd) Re: Are Mentalists boring?
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> TUM isn't as bad a book as some folks around here would have you
> believe. Yes, it's got questionable bits in it, but it does provide
> a lot of ideas. I'd recommned buying it.

Agreed. TUM is actually an excellent sourcebook, full of wonderful
ideas on how to make a mentalist more interesting. I got a lot of
ideas for Desire out of it.

>
> That's b/c an effective mentalist isn't cheap - you usually don't
> have the points left over for 'flavor' after you've grabbed a decent
> DEX, EGO, SPD, Mental Multipower, some armor/force field, etc. - not
> on 250 points. I've always thought it takes 300 points for a
> satisfactory 'vanilla' mentalist. Tack on 50-100 more points if you
> want some other flavor.

Yeah, I had that problem when I created Desire. I had enuf points for
"flavor" only because I essentially made her a normal human as far as
Characteristics go (with the exception of her EGO, which is 23). Her
mental powers are actually fairly low powered: Ego Attack is only 4
dice--which failed to even Con Stun most of the time unless I rolled
high. Her Mind Control (emotions only) was much more effective
because it was AE, but it was only 5 dice, and I failed to get EGO +10
most of the time, and this was on the thugs. Her one attempt to read
someone's mind only got her surface thoughts--fortunately she'd used
Conversation first, so the information she wanted was IN the surface
thots. I wish I'd had 300 points <sigh>.

I could have bought her Mental Powers higher, but 1) I wanted to
assure my GM that this character would not be abusive, and 2) I needed
to points to buy the Professional Skills, Knowledge Skills, and other
Skills, Talents, and Perks I needed to round out her character
concept. Nearly a third of her points went just to that.

Amy



----------------
Theala Sildorian
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From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:28:06 +0000
Subject: (Fwd) Re: Are Mentalists boring?
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I think mentalists are very interesting characters to play. My
entire supers campaign is revolving around esper issues right now, and
I've been getting a lot of mileage out of it.

If you want mental powers to be interesting in your campaign, you need
to address the issue of how and why they work. To get interest, you
have to generate it. When one GM I started playing with took a look
at the hows and whys of mental powers in order to find issues for the
mentalist character in our game to explore, he got lots of ideas. I
later took those ideas, and I've been expanding them. I'm currently
playing two mentalists: one as a GMPC, and the other as a PC in a
brand new game.

Both are essentially normals with mental powers: one has an EGO of
23, the other only 18--and the rest of their stats are more in line
with a Heroic campaign than a superheroic. Neither of them have ANY
levels. True, I have to work to avoid "sniper syndrome." But it's
really not that difficult.

Remington Brandt, Jr (the GMPC) is a Time Cop with the ability to see
the past by touching objects and getting emotional readings from them
(Retrocognition), and Touch Telepathy (ie he must touch a person to
read their mind). Both these Powers are fairly useful for detective
type work. Because he's a cop, he's also trained in the martial arts,
and in handgun use--he can wear Kevlar and shoot a gun in a toe to toe
slugfest if necessary. He's done so. He's also interesting because
of story elements I've introduced around this character: he's the
major love interest of one of the PCs, and there's a major issue with
another GMPC of mine whom he's trying to convince to return to the
future with him--his mother who in his timeline dies while he's still
a boy, creating a tragic aspect to the character.

Desire is a performance artist who is a projective empath and
precognitive. In a game last night, she heroically used her Area
Effect Emotion Control to calm a mob of hysterical civilians and
safely direct them away from a battle between super villains. Maybe
this doesn't satisfy some people's desire for hack and slash--but that
would have been out of character for Desire--she has a 10 pt
"Dislike's Combat" Psych Lim. Now the leader of a local superhero
team has convinced her to use her Touch Telepathy (even tho he doesn't
know she's a telepath) to question a local thug to find some stolen
artwork. She also has issues for me to explore--she too is a time
traveller, hiding from the Psi Corps (think B5) because she doesn't
want to be in a paramilitary organization, or even to use her mental
powers that much--she wants to concentrate on her art (altho she has
the ability to affect an audience with her AE Mind Control, she never
does--she wants to affect people through the art for its own sake).

Mentalists don't have to be overwhelming to a campaign. TUM has lots
of ideas that can keep mental powers in line. Touch only, emotions
only are two examples of Limitations I put on otherwise strong Powers
that made them palatable to my GM. Because I've defined her as a
projective empath, when I Ego Attack someone I don't say, "I blast him
with my Ego Attack," instead I say something like:

(to villain stealing artwork) "You ought to be ASHAMED of stealing
those paintings" ie the Ego Attack is defined as shame so overpowring
it causes physical pain. She can look at a person and tell them to
feel pain, and they do. By ROLEplaying out the use of the powers, and
because emotions are so varied, I have an infinate number of special
effects I can choose from to keep the powers from being boring. Maybe
Ego Attack seems like an EB to some people, but you can't do Killing
Damage with it, so there IS a trade off (if a small one). I also use
optional rules (modified from TUM) and have mental combat manuevers
for mentalist vs mentalist combat, including "mental martial arts",
which can be used only against other mentalists.

Amy

----------------
Theala Sildorian
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Leeland_Krueger@mercer.com
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 15:29:05 -0600
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
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RKA - no range. Strength doesn't make it more effective. Missle
deflection isn't intrinsict to the light sabre, it is a Jedi power
that enables the user to interpose the light sabre. No additional
presence, that was the result of his slicing the thug up.

Leeland


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
Author: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> at uucp
Date: 3/6/98 11:16 AM


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OK, so what can a lightsabre *do*?

a)HKA, pretty nasty one, too -- 4d6?
b)Missile Deflection
c)Skill levels w/acrobatics -- remember when Luke did a flip and used
his lightsabre as a sort of pole (why didn't it cut through the
ground?)?
d)Aid to Presence -- 3d6 at least, if you know how to use it. What do
you think Obi-Wan's Prescence attack was after he sliced up the thug
at the Cantina?

As for universal/personal -- I'd call it somewhere in between.
"Usable by any Jedi".
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Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 16:39:07 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Subject: Big Trouble in Little China (intro)
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BIG TROUBLE IN LITTLE CHINA
A mini-worldbook for the Hero System

"You just listen to the words of the old Porkchop Express and take his
advice
on a dark and stormy night when the lightning is crashing, the thunder
rolling
and the rain falling in sheets as thick as lead. Just remember what Jack
Burton does when the earth quakes, the poison arrows fall from the sky and
the pillars of heaven shake. Yeah, Jack Burton looks that big old storm
right in the eye and he says: 'Gimme your best shot pal, I can take it!'."

Notes on Big Trouble in Little China:
As far as I can tell, Big Trouble was originally written to be a Western,
with Oriental magic and martial arts mixed in to create a very different
sort of film then anyone had ever tired before. John Carpenter found the
project interesting, but balked at making the film due to a lack of
understanding to such a movie's 'look and feel'. But, as fortune would
have it, Carpenter saw Tsui Hark's film "Zu: Warriors of the Magic
Mountain" and instantly knew how he wanted Big Trouble to look.

The film was released in 1986, to very mixed reviews. Most people didn't
know what to think of it (much like the reaction "The Adventures of
Buckaroo Banzai" would get) and pronounced it a flop. Critics tended to
view it as a silly 'comic book'-like film, missing the fact that Big
Trouble is *supposed* to be a slightly silly comic book-like film. But,
as with many films such as this ("Buckaroo Banzai", "Mad Max", "Rocky
Horror", The Road Warrior") Big Trouble became a cult classic.
Personally, I think it's the best film for explaining Champions SFX and
powers ever made. You can watch the movie and rattle off: "That's an
Energy Blast, that's superleap, see that, that's a Presence Attack, that's
Desolid, that's a Flash Attack" etc.

A Short History of David Lo Pan:
In the distant past (272 BC to be exact), the first sovereign emperor of
China united the seven warring states into one country. Along the way, he
subjugated a man by the name of Lo Pan and eternally cursed him with a
body of 'no flesh'.

Now, although this curse effectively made Lo Pan immortal, it also
rendered him powerless, since his body of 'no flesh' meant he existed as
an insubstantial ghost. In order to regain his natural form, he had to
find a green-eyed girl and marry her. This would appease Ching Dai, the
God of the East - Lo Pan's patron - but in order to appease the emperor,
Lo Pan would then have to sacrifice this woman. There were a few
drawbacks to to this cure, however. The first was that green-eyed women
are exceedingly rare in China. The second is that she would have to be
brave enough to embrace the burning blade and tame the savage heart.

It is now 2270 years later and Lo Pan has yet to find the girl that will
allow him to regain his corporeal form (and go on to rule the world from
beyond the grave), but he keeps trying. Backed by his own private army, a
trio of powerful sorcerers and several supernatural monsters, Lo Pan is
the de facto ruler of Chinatown, doing his best to find the girl of his
prophecy.

People of Note in Chinatown:
Chang Sings - the Chang Sings are a fighting tong, and are 'the good
guys'. See the write-up for more information.

David Lo Pan - The Godfather of Little China, see his write-up for more
information.

Eddie Lee - is the maitre de at the Dragon of the Black Pool. He dresses
in sport coats and looks more like a used-car salesman than a headwaiter.
He looks to know some basic kung fu (or boxing) and has a crush on Margo
Litzenberger (see).

Egg Shen - tour bus driver and local authority on Lo Pan. See his
write-up for more information.

Gracie Law - Chinatown lawyer, see her write-up for more information.

Jackie Burton - trucker and long-time friend of Wang Chi's. See his
write-up for more information.

Lem Lee - Lem Lee is (was) the chief of the Chang Sings. According to
street rumors Lo Pan had him assassinated.

Lords of Death, The - the Lords are described as "errand boys for the Wing
Kong". They are typical Chinatown streetgang, heavily armed with a
variety of weapons. Typical members should have some martial arts and gun
skills.

Margo Litzenberger - reporter for the Berkeley People's Herald. Margo
will do anything for her story, but she is hampered by the fact she's
"monumentally naive".

Miao Yin - Wang Chi's fiance from China. Wang Chi has known her since
they were children, and has scrimped and saved every possible dollar to
bring her to America. Miao Yin is very beautiful, with long black hair, a
slender figure, and greens eyes, "like creamy jade". This latter fact is
not lost upon Lo Pan when he finds out.

Tara - a young, pretty, immigrant girl from China, Tara is almost
kidnapped by the Lords of Death at the airport. Instead, the Lords grab
Miao Yin (see).

Uncle Tsui Wong - Uncle Tsui ('Choo') is the head cook at Wang Chi's
restaurant, Dragon of the Black Pool. Aside from his cooking skills,
Uncle Tsui has quite a bit of knowledge concerning supernatural beings and
their habits.

Wang Chi - owner of the Dragon of the Black Pool and member of the Chang
Sings. See his write-up for more information.

Wing Kong - the Wing Kong are a fighting tong, and the minions of Lo Pan.
Wang Chi describes them as 'animals'. See the write-up for more
information.

Places of Note in Chinatown:
Dragon of the Black Pool - Chinatown restaurant where one can sample fine
Cantonese cuisine.

Egg Fu Young Tours - Egg Shen houses his tour bus in what looks like a
converted fire house. Although the place "looks like a dump", is is
crammed with priceless artifacts, potions and substances. To top if off,
Egg owns the whole block, making him a very rich man in Chinatown.

Vault of the Dead Tree - this tunnel or cave lies somewhere underneath
Chinatown. It is part of the sewer system, and filled with, as the name
suggests, fallen tree trunks. Below the narrow walksways and bridges
flows, as Egg Shen puts it; "the black blood of the Earth"... and Egg sure
isn't talking about oil.

Wing Kong Import Export Company (aka the Wing Kong Exchange) - Home of
David Lo Pan and his minions, the Wing Kong Exchange is *huge*. It has at
least six basement levels, numerous storerooms, quarters for the Wing
Kong, a garage, torture chambers, a scattering of hells (aka 'The Hell of
Upside Down Sinners', 'The Hell of the Horny Dragons', 'The Hell of Being
Cut to Pieces' and the 'Hell of Being Skinned Alive' etc) and a prison for
Lo Pan's slave trade.

White Tiger's, The - noted whorehouse and massage parlor, the White
Tiger's is where the Lords of Death go to sell girls they kidnap.

Magic in Big Trouble in Little China:
Magic in Big Trouble is a touch different than what most people might be
expecting. A lot of the magic powers displayed by the characters in the
movie isn't the usual 'point the finger blow something up' schtick common
to fantasy RPGs (although Egg Shen comes close); instead sorcerers such as
Thunder, Rain and Lightning display their magic prowess through their
martial skill and command of the weather. Egg Shen's magical prowess is
more in the field of alchemy, allowing his to whip up magic potions and
various forms of explosives. Lo Pan is said to be a powerful magician,
but we only really see him cast a few spells. It really is a matter of
perspective, since very few people deal with magic, than anyone with any
sort of magical power is going to be powerful when compared to anyone
around them.

Powers:
Honestly, it is a bit rough to decide what does and does not fit as
'Oriental Magic' when creating spells. Based on what we see in Big
Trouble (and a number of other HK action films, such as "Zu: Warriors of
the Magic Mountain", which inspired John Carpenter to make Big Trouble) we
can come up with some rough guidelines.

The most obvious spells are attack powers, such as Energy Blast, RKA,
Flash and so on. Movement powers are usually Flight and Superleap (or
Flight made into a form of Superleap). Defensive powers are tougher,
since one doesn't usually see effects such as Force Field and Force Wall.
We do see Lo Pan use a Missile Deflection spell versus Egg Shen's 'rocket
launcher' in the final fight scene of Big Trouble however. Powers that
certainly don't seem to fit are Size Powers (Growth, Shrinking, Density
Increase etc) and FTL.

What makes Oriental magic seem, well, Oriental is the SFX. An Energy
Blast could be a jet of fire launched not from the finger tips, but the
mouth or nostrils. An RKA isn't a magic arrow, but a sword projected from
inside the sleeve. An Entangle isn't a mass of spider webs, but lengths
of cloth flung from your sleeves or arms. Lo Pan's Flash (fired from the
mouth and eyes) and Rain's physical Energy Blast (the little red ball) are
great examples of the SFX for these sort of spells. "Watchers of the
Dragon" has some a number of spell effects based off of actual Chinese
magic traditions, while other sources are "Mystic China" (Palladium Books)
and "GURPS China". For visual inspiration try "Big Trouble in Little
China" (naturally), "Zu: Warriors of the Magic Mountain", "A Chinese Ghost
Story" and "A Kid From Tibet".

Advantages and Limitations:
There is no real 'overall' Advantage that apply to the spells used in Big
Trouble. There are obvious Advantages applied to individual spells (such
as Invisible Power Effects on the Storm's bullet barrier) but otherwise it
is up to the GM's desires.

Most Big Trouble spells look to have Gestures as a limitation, as well as
Extra Time and Concentrate. This is especially true of some of Lo Pan's
spells. Some of the more complex spells (such as Lo Pan's bride finding
ritual) have casting times of up to a half hour. With the exception of
Egg Shen, none of the characters in Big Trouble look to rely on Foci to
any great extent, trusting instead on their 'innate' or 'natural' powers.
It should be noted that the old staple of such films, Incantations' aren't
used at all. Surprisingly enough, no one chants of the name of their
attacks before launching them. Such an effect seems limited to anime
martial arts films (and some of the more odder HK martial arts films),
where characters regularly announce their attacks before using them.

As a final note, Uncle Tsui and Egg Shen mention that "All movement in the
universe is caused by movement between positive and negative furies. If
the furies are out of balance - as they are in Lo Pan - then the person
turns into demon and lives forever." It would seem that all magic in Big
Trouble is governed by a balance between Ying and Yang (light and dark,
hot and cold, male and female and so on). This could mean that all spells
have unwanted side effects that need to be corrected before one's internal
chi balance gets out of hand and perverts the magic user.


***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 16:39:45 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

> RKA - no range. Strength doesn't make it more effective. Missle
> deflection isn't intrinsict to the light sabre, it is a Jedi power
> that enables the user to interpose the light sabre. No additional
> presence, that was the result of his slicing the thug up.

BUT, you can do stuff like Disarm with a Lightsaber. That in my book makes
it a HKA. I don't think it should be possible to perform disarms and weapon
binds with an RKA. The Lightsaber is a killing attack that can be used in
hand to hand combat - that's the definition of a HKA. An RKA is a
_projected_ killing attack. You cannot use it to block or disarm or sweep or
move-by or move-through or any hand to hand maneuver, because those are
_hand to hand_ maneuvers and an RKA is not a hand to hand attack, even if it
is No Range. Similarly, one should not be able to use level in hand to hand
combat applied to Energy Blasts or RKAs, even if they are No Range.

Personally, I've always thought that a No STR Adds HKA makes a lot more
sense than a No Range RKA. The costs are the same, but one is inherently a
hand to hand maneuver, the other is not, should not, and cannot be used
'hand to hand'. A No Range RKA might be good for something like a short
range weapon (say a small electrical gun with a 1m range - i.e. 'No Range'
in HERO terms), but it's a poor choice for a hand to hand weapon.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 16:41:40 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Subject: CHAR: BTILC Chang Sing
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

"No, no, no! These are our friends, these are the Chang Sings!"
CHANG SING (generic)

Notes: The Chang Sings are a 'fighting tong' operating in an
around Chinatown. When dressed for tong ceremonies, a Chang Sing is
usually dressed in black trousers and jacket with a bright yellow turban
or head band. In general, the Chang Sings are skilled martial artists,
and are trained in a wide number of traditional Chinese weapons, as well
as modern firearms. They are the sworn enemies of the Wing Kong.

The Character:

STAT VAL COST
Str 13 3
Dex 15 15
Con 13 6
Body 10 0
Int 10 0
Ego 10 0
Pre 13 3
Com 10 0
PD 5 2
ED 4 1
Spd 3 7
Rec 6 0
End 26 0
Stun 24 0
Char Total 37
Power Total 46
Total Cost 83

COST POWERS & SKILLS
5 Martial Arts: Kung Fu, use art with Axe/Mace, Blades, Clubs,
Polearms, Staff
4 Block +2 OCV +2 DCV Block, Abort
5 Kick -2 OCV +1 DCV 6 1/2d6 Strike
4 Punch +0 OCV +2 DCV 4 1/2d6 Strike

5 AK: Chinatown 14-
3 Breakfall 12-
2 CK: San Francisco 11-
1 KS: Kung Fu 8-
4 KS: Local Tongs 13-
2 PS: (choice) 11-
3 Streetwise 11-
4 WF: Common Martial Arts Melee Weapons, Small Arms
2 Perk: Member of Chang Sing tong
2 Lang: English (Catonese Native)

Disadvantages
50 Base
5 DF: Black tunics and yellow headbands
15 Psych: Loyal to the Chang Sing tong
10 Psych: Hunting the Wing Cong tong
3 Chang Sing bonus

(Chang Sing created by Gary Oldman, David Weinstein, W.D. Richter and
John Carpenter. Character sheet created by Michael Surbrook)

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 16:42:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Subject: CHAR: BTILC - Wing Kong
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

"These guys are animals Jack..."

WING CONG (generic)

Notes: The Wing Kong are Lo Pan's troops. They are a 'fighting
tong', ruthless, brutal, violent and engaged in a wide variety of illicit
activities.. The Wing Cong also control at least on street gang in
Chinatown, known as the "Lords of Death". Wing Cong members are trained
in kung fu (although they don't look to be as skilled as the Chang Sings)
and are usually heavily armed with an assortment of traditional and modern
weapons. The Wing Cong dress in black trousers and jackets with red
turbans or headbands.

The Character:

STAT VAL COST
Str 13 3
Dex 13 9
Con 13 6
Body 10 0
Int 10 0
Ego 10 0
Pre 13 3
Com 10 0
PD 5 2
ED 4 1
Spd 3 7
Rec 6 0
End 26 0
Stun 24 0
Char Total 31
Power Total 46
Total Cost 77

COST POWERS & SKILLS
5 Martial Arts: Kung Fu, use art with Axe/Mace, Blades, Clubs,
Polearms, Staff
4 Block +2 OCV +2 DCV Block, Abort
5 Kick -2 OCV +1 DCV 6 1/2d6 Strike
4 Punch +0 OCV +2 DCV 4 1/2d6 Strike

5 AK: Chinatown 14-
3 Breakfall 12-
2 CK: San Francisco 11-
1 KS: Kung Fu 8-
4 KS: Local Tongs 13-
2 PS: (choice) 11-
3 Streetwise 11-
4 WF: Common Martial Arts Melee Weapons, Small Arms
2 Perk: Member of Wing Cong
2 Lang: English (Catonese Native)

Disadvantages
50 Base
5 DF: Black tunics and red turbans
15 Psych: Loyal to the Wing Cong tong and David Lo Pan
10 Psych: Hunting the Chang Sing tong

(Wing Cong created by Gary Oldman, David Weinstein, W.D. Richter and
John Carpenter. Character sheet created by Michael Surbrook)

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net>
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:42:52 +0000
Subject: Re: GMing tips :Accessori
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

> While rolling the dice and making computations is the traditional
> way, I played in an AD&D game at DunDraCon where the DM had
> pre-rolled a whole mess of attacks for his main characters, listing
> the AC that they hit. He just crossed them off one by one during
> the game. It made things go somewhat faster.

That's fine if the GM wants to take the trouble to do all that
rolling before a game starts. Me, I'm pushed for time as it is.

To make combat go faster in my games, I follow a couple rules of
thumb:

1) No fight should last more than 2 Turns. Once 2 Turns have nearly
gone by, if the players haven't pounded the baddies yet, I start
looking for ways to get the baddies out of the fight.

2) I don't bother with rolls between NPCs--I simply describe what
happens.

3) I don't keep careful track of NPC's END and STUN. If they're
normals, they tire quick. They Stun/Knock Out easy--one or two hits
is all it takes unless the player REALLY rolls bad.

4) In some instances, I set the players up to lose. Most fights are
"fair", ie the outcome is based on what the players do, and how well
the dice roll (one way or the other). But since I'm a storytelling
GM, some fights they just can't win--because it's a setup to
something more exciting later on. Some fights I set up to allow the
players opportunities to act out aggressions on NPCs they dislike--I
made three of my players very happy last weekend when they finally
got a chance to nail Silver Avenger Alex Richarson (a "good guy" npc
who'd given them lots of headaches).

My combats used to take HOURS. Now I generally have combat resolved
in 30 minutes or so, except for grand finaele combats (which I run
rarely).

Amy

----------------
Theala Sildorian
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net>
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:45:59 +0000
Subject: RE: GMing tips :Accessori
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

>
> Speaking of accessories and combat taking too long, a while back, a
> friend created a "slide rule" for champions combat. I have always
> been meaning to make up a couple with wood or plastic (he used
> cardboard, and it didn't last). If memory serves, you simply lined
> up two numbers, your OCV and the number you rolled, then there was a
> mark showing you what DCV you hit.

I've got a PDF file on my web page that does the same thing: tells
you what number you need to hit X DCV based on your OCV. Essentially
it's a THACO chart for Champions. :)

Amy

----------------
Theala Sildorian
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 16:46:07 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Subject: CHAR: BTILC - Chinese Ogre
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

*ROAR!*

CHINESE OGRE

Notes: This creature is one of the supernatural beasts that
inhabit the lower levels of the Wing Cong Exchange. The ogre is about the
size of a very large man, but walks very hunched over. It has stringy
orange-brown hair and a hideous face. The ogre wears no clothing other
than a tattered loincloth.

The Character:

STAT VAL COST
Str 30 20
Dex 15 15
Con 18 16
Body 15 10
Int 6 -4
Ego 10 0
Pre 20 10
Com 0 -5
PD 10 4
ED 8 4
Spd 3 5
Rec 10 0
End 36 0
Stun 40 1
Char Total 76
Power Total 58
Total Cost 134

COST POWERS & SKILLS
7 1/2 END on STR
6 LS: Does not Age, Immune to Disease
5 Climbing 13-
9 Concealment 13-
7 Shadowing 13-
5 Stealth 13-
9 Tracking 13-
10 CSL: +2 with HTH

Disadvantages
75 Base
25 DF: Chinese Ogre (unconc, fear)
15 Phys: Mute (freq, greatly)
19 Monster Bonus

(Chinese Ogre created by Gary Oldman, David Weinstein, W.D. Richter and
John Carpenter. Character sheet created by Michael Surbrook)

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 16:48:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Subject: CHAR: BTILC - Guardian
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

"What it sees, Lo Pan knows."

GUARDIAN

Notes: The guardian is another of Lo Pan's creatures. It is a
small, spherical entity, about 3' across. It has no limbs, but sports
innumerable eyes placed all about its body. It moves by flying, and seems
to float silently about the lower corridors of the Wing Cong exchange,
reporting all it sees to Lo Pan.

The Character:

STAT VAL COST
Str 0 -10
Dex 10 0
Con 10 0
Body 12 4
Int 13 3
Ego 10 0
Pre 13 3
Com 0 -5
PD 4 4
ED 4 2
Spd 3 10
Rec 2 0
End 20 0
Stun 20 3
Char Total 14
Power Total 82
Total Cost

COST POWERS & SKILLS
13 Shrinking: One Level, 0 END, Persistant, Always On
1m high, 12.5 kg, -2 PER, +2 DCV, +3" KB
Flight: 6", Invisible Power Effects: Sight and Hearing (+1),
0 END, Persistant,
-12 Running: -6"
11 LS: Does not Age, Eat, Sleep, Immune to disease
25 360 degree Sensing - with all senses
6 Enhanced Perception: +2 with PER (PER Roll 14-)
3 Bump of Direction
3 Stealth 11-
3 Tracking 11-

Disadvantages
50 Base
25 DF: Guardian; floating, limbless ball covered with eyes (unconc,
fear)
25 Phys: No limbs

(Guardian created by Gary Oldman, David Weinstein, W.D. Richter and
John Carpenter. Character sheet created by Michael Surbrook)

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 06 Mar 1998 16:56:36 -0500
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To: champ-l@omg.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "L" == Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> writes:

L> b)Missile Deflection

A light saber cannot do this, it is a skill learned by Jedi.

L> c)Skill levels w/acrobatics -- remember when Luke did a flip and used
L> his lightsabre as a sort of pole (why didn't it cut through the
L> ground?)?

That was a suprise maneuver.

L> d)Aid to Presence -- 3d6 at least, if you know how to use it. What do
L> you think Obi-Wan's Prescence attack was after he sliced up the thug
L> at the Cantina?

Cheeze.

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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
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\

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net>
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 22:03:53 +0000
Subject: Re: Going To the Source (WAS: Are Mentalists boring?)
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

> > I personally don't believe anyone who doesn't read comics is qualified
> >to GM a super game, and only barely qualified to play. But that's my opinion.

Don't know who wrote that originally as I must have deleted that msg
without reading it, but I disagree totally. I never read comics as a
kid, and haven't read them extensively as an adult. I did read some
X men back issues an ex roomie of mine had, so I'm familiar with that
part of the Marvel universe. Barely. I turned down a chance to
learn 1st ed rules back in 1983 because I wasn't interested in
comics--I was introduced to the system via Fantasy Hero.

But my players have never complained about my GMing supers. I took
over running our supers game several years ago, and it's still
running strong. I run one shot adventures regularly whenever I go to
conventions (just got back from Dun Dra Con), and everyone's always
told me they had a wonderful time. Familiarity with the genre always
helps (the old saying,write what you know), but you don't have to be
a comic fanatic to run a good supers game. You DO have to have a
good handle on things like plot and characterization.


> What titles of comics do people in your gaming circles read? What
> other books/novels? What movies? What are the most helpful to your
> Gm'ing? Plotting? Characterization?

I did recently start reading a comic title, Divine Right, and am
enjoying it. I dislike coming in on a story in the middle which is
one of the reasons I've never gotten into comics much. I've started
with DR from issue 1, so I'm starting from the beginning. It helps
that I know a little about the Gen 13 universe, but DR is written
well enuf that it's not mandatory.

I get lots of ideas from fiction and movies, all genres. My
creative writing instructor once told me all stories boil down to two
simple elements:

1) A man leaves home on a long journey
2) A stranger rides into town.

Funny, but it does seem to be true for the most part.

Amy

----------------
Theala Sildorian
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:05:16 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Invisibility
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
Content-Disposition: inline
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To: champ-l@omg.org
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mars.superlink.net id RAA11476

In my games, we've decided that full Invisibility is just too powerful, so
we allow it only with a fringe. Is this a reasonable decision?

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 06 Mar 1998 17:18:36 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "JaRP" == John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net> writes:

JaRP> BUT, you can do stuff like Disarm with a Lightsaber. That in my book
JaRP> makes it a HKA.

Since *WHEN* has HKA had the Disarm maneuver built into it?

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\ head.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Invisibility
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 06 Mar 1998 17:20:15 -0500
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>>>>> "DS" == David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> writes:

DS> In my games, we've decided that full Invisibility is just too powerful,
DS> so we allow it only with a fringe. Is this a reasonable decision?

No, simply because there is no such thing as "Invisibility to everything".

That you cannot buy Invisibility to the "unusual" sense group is the
official ruling.

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Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:29:10 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Invisibility
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

On 6 Mar 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> >>>>> "DS" == David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> writes:
>
> DS> In my games, we've decided that full Invisibility is just too powerful,
> DS> so we allow it only with a fringe. Is this a reasonable decision?
>
> No, simply because there is no such thing as "Invisibility to everything".
>
> That you cannot buy Invisibility to the "unusual" sense group is the
> official ruling.

Uh.. Rat? What are you talking about? I read that to mean that the
poster felt fringeless Invisibility was to powerful. I don't think the
number of senses has anything to do with it...

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 17:47:55 -0600
From: Kevin Roberts <kr23st00@apex.net>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Are Mentalists boring?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

Brian Wong wrote:
>
> > The Ultimate Mentalist had some nice ideas for "incremental effects" for
> > Mind Control (Coercion), Mind Scan (Mind Search), and Telepathy (Mind
> > Probe). These allow for partial effects for insufficient Effect Rolls, but
> > also give some ability to fight the effects of successful effects. I'm
>
> Really?
>
> What page/section? I haven't had a chance to read through that book fully yet.
>
> Rook
snip sig.....

Well, there is also in one of the Adventures Mag. an article in it that
is also helpful.

It is called Molding minds for fun and profit. It has some interesting
twists
in it on mind control and Illusions. If that is not enough for you
try the Hero almaniac 1 or 2. It has rules in it for see a persons
Aurea, reading emotions, and other useful items on mental, power
advantages,
and liminitations.

end of line.....

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 17:49:34 -0600
From: Mike Whitney <mwhitney@swbell.net>
Subject: Re: Genre questions.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org



Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:

> I think the first time I saw his Flight capability described as a form of TK was
> back in the early to mid-'70's in
> an old issue of Starlog, perhaps even the first issue. Wish I still had that one.

I'm thinking it was about the time of the first Superman movie, and was
"Cinefantastique" magazine.

Mike

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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com>
Subject: Re: Balance (was Re: Powers as Disadvantages)
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 18:23:03 -0600
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Robert A. West wrote:

>Is it really that inobvious in most cases why unbalanced powers are bad?


No.

It is, however, inobvious as to why they are unbalanced? 'Balance' is
obviously a very ambigous term or there wouldn't be so many arguments over
it. If a rules modification was obviously 'unbalanced' then why would it be
necessary to say that it is 'unbalanced.'

Alan

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From: "Pariah" <bkern@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Other Great Presence Attacks
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 18:33:48 -0700
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>Which reminds of another truly cool PRE attack: when Chun disarms Remo
>Williams (in the movie of the same name) and then proceeds to unload the gun
>bullet by bullet in front of him; Remo uses the same trick on The Bad Guy at
>the end of the film.

Favorite Flash presence attack.

Second series, Issue #50.

Vandal Savage empties a revolver into Lady Flash at point blank range. Flash
stopped all six bullets from over ten feet away. After flash goes about how he
could have stopped them from any distance he says to Savage:

"Care to try another six? I reloaded the gun for you."

I *love* speedsters.

"Devil Bunnies!... www.primenet.com/~bkern
I snort the nose, Lucifer!... ICQ: 879171
Banana! Banana!"
-=Pariah=-

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Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 20:59:44 -0500 (EST)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
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>JaRP> BUT, you can do stuff like Disarm with a Lightsaber. That in my book
>JaRP> makes it a HKA.
>
>Since *WHEN* has HKA had the Disarm maneuver built into it?

Rat, I do wish you'd read the whole message before making snide comments. I
never said HKAs had disarm built into them - but you _can_ do a disarm with
almost all SFX of a HKA. My point was that you could use a lightsaber to
perform all sorts of hand-to-hand maneuvers like block, disarm, sweep,
moveby, etc. - stuff that just isn't normally possible with a ranged killing
attack (though later provisions do allow for ranged disarms - like in Dark
Champions or TUMA, the BBB example of the Tombstone kid buys Telekinesis to
simulate this trick).

What's the power that lets you do killing attacks in hand to hand combat?
Hand Killing Attacks, that's what. Using an RKA to 'simulate' a hand to hand
weapon is an example of using the wrong power to simulate an effect.

I'm not 100% convinced that the lightsaber deserves No STR Adds, now that I
think a bit more about it. The lightsaber has an actual physical presence -
people get thrown around in Return of the Jedi when Luke's playing
lightsaber baseball on Jabba's yacht - that wasn't just reflex action on
being sliced in half. I seem to recall the lightsaber bouncing off a surface
or two during the two Vader/Luke fights in the series as well. The amount of
force you put into a swing probably has some relation to damage. Given that
most lightsabers probably have a bunch of advantages (like Armor Piercing)
and will be used by sub-20 STR individuals, allowing STR adds on the HKA
won't get a person much - an extra die at most, probably less.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Speedsters
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 22:19:58 -0800
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On Thursday, March 05, 1998 9:29 AM, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:


<snip>
>> 5 +10 STUN (only when unconscious -1)
>
> Um. OK. It gets tacked on to the top of your Stun, adding
>nothing to your current as you are already KOed. When you awaken,
you
>loose the Stun. How is this useful?


You would wake up sooner, because the extra could put you into a
higher recovery bracket. Thus, if you are at -25 and thus recover once
per minute, you become -15 and thus recover at once per Turn.

<snip>
>> 1u 16x NCM Running {1200 mph}
>
> No naked advantages (or add-ons) in a MP. Buy some other running
>and add the NCM.


No naked Advantages, true. However, the other is an interpretation, at
best, and a house rule, at worse. Not that I might not rule the same
way, mind you.

<snip>
>> 1u +15 STR -- doing in one instant what would normally take a
>> minute
>
> Explain this. Str is not the characteristic to allow such.


Quite possible. Consider. A speedster who operates at a different rate
of time, say, 10x, than normal people pushes against a weight. The
energy put into that weight is 10x as great as without the time
compression. This means that the speedster would be able to push 10x
as hard as if he operated at normal time.

The hard science fiction author Larry Niven played up this point in
one of his "Gil the ARM" stories. A flashlight, shining normally
inside of a field where time effectively was 400 times faster than
normal would burn people down in a second, as all of the energy
normally released in 400 seconds was dumped into their bodies in one
second. The targets, of course, moved _far_ to slowly to dodge.

<snip>

>> 1u CE: 1 Hex Any superspeed effect -- can clean a room, sign a
>> stack of papers, etc.
>
> Not with 1 Hex you can't. (The room, anyway.)
>

Sure you can. If the room is four hexes, you can clean it in four
phases. Try doing that normally, if the room is actually messy.

>> 3 Speed Reading
>
> Might this work in the MP?


Nope. Talents cannot normally be in a framework.

<snip>

Filksinger

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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Pre Attacks
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 22:34:13 -0800
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On Thursday, March 05, 1998 12:43 PM, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:


<snip>
>> Now, you wanna talk PRE attacks, try the Giant's (darn it, I forget
his name
>> in the story! Fezzic?...) PRE attack on the soldiers. Yikes.
>
> Of course, this was aided by taking "extra time". How would that
>work with PRE attacks?
>
Officially, it doesn't. Now that you mention it, I think it should,
with requirements that the attacker spend all of his time at the
Presence attack _and_ with possible penalties for extra time if you
goof. "He isn't powerful! Attack!!"

Filksinger

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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 07 Mar 98 14:44:45
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls
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On Tue, 03 Mar 1998 11:47:04 -0600, bobby farris wrote:


>My next question is a little harder. Under what circumstances would you
>allow a person to buy stats in an EC? The problem I have always had with
>stats in an EC is that it seems to be a cheap way to get high stats with
>little cost.

Raw stats, no; stats with Limitations, yes, under certain circumstances
(eg +50 Str, x10 End - Extra MegaPush)
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 07 Mar 98 14:50:51
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
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On Mon, 02 Mar 1998 14:31:35 -0600, bobby farris wrote:

> What brings this up is one of my players wants to play an advanced
>mutant. In the mutant book it gives a package deal for advanced mutants
>and states that advanced mutants have characteristics in the 20-30's
>across the board. He wants to put his charcteristics in a Mutant powers
>Elemental Control. I feel this is kind of power gaming, but I don't know
>what to tell him.

Try "No."


qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"John P Weatherman\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 07 Mar 98 15:03:07
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
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On Mon, 2 Mar 98 18:18:15 -0500, John P Weatherman wrote:

>Darien Phoenix Lynx chip@owlnet.rice.edu 3/2/98 2:36 PM
>
>>4. Adjustment powers work vs the EC and all its slots, after all, it's the
>>same power.
>
>I know that the adjustment powers hit everything is commonly accepted.
>However, an EC saves, in and of itself no more than half the cost of a
>power. Thats a -1 limitation. So why does it give every adjuster out
>there a +2 advantage: effects all powers of a SPX for free? Just seems to
>be a little bit of an over reaction to the cost break...

The way I've done it in the past is that a Drain affects only the
targetted Power until it starts getting to the EC Bonus, then all
Powers in the EC are affected.

Example: The Storm Wizard has a magic item, a weather-controlling staff
that he made as an EC to save points. The Powers are each 50 pts. Our
intrepid heroes attack the wizard and the party mage tags the Wind Wall
generated by the staff with a Drain. Once the Wind Wall is Drained to
below 25 Active Points, the other Powers, eg Flight, are all Drained on
a 1:1 basis, so if the Wind Wall is Drained to 10 pts, the other Powers
are now at 50-15=35 pts.

This works well and is self-balancing.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 07:10:58 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Are Mentalists boring?
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At 12:16 PM 3/6/1998 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:
>> The Ultimate Mentalist had some nice ideas for "incremental effects" for
>> Mind Control (Coercion), Mind Scan (Mind Search), and Telepathy (Mind
>> Probe). These allow for partial effects for insufficient Effect Rolls, but
>> also give some ability to fight the effects of successful effects. I'm
>
> Really?
>
>What page/section? I haven't had a chance to read through that book fully
yet.

In Chapter Three, pages 104-109.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 07:29:02 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Invisibility
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At 05:05 PM 3/6/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>In my games, we've decided that full Invisibility is just too powerful, so
>we allow it only with a fringe. Is this a reasonable decision?

I can't really call it *un*reasonable. If I were a player in that game
and wanted to play Invisible Guy, I might bristle at it, but it's not
ridiculous. Besides, if the GM should change his mind later, it's still
something that Invisible Guy can buy with Experience.
At the same time, with or without the fringe, an Invisible character is
still just as vulnerable to Area Effect/Explosion attacks as anyone else,
and can still get whacked by someone with Mind Scan or some other alternate
Targeting Sense. About 80% of villain groups have at least one member with
one of the former, and about 20% have at least one with the latter (I'm
just going off the cuff here, so someone else might know better than that).
So Invisibility really is of a bit more limited use than one might expect
-- about as much as, say, spending those 20-30 points in PD and/or ED.
---
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 07:39:59 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
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At 05:18 PM 3/6/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "JaRP" == John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net> writes:
>
>JaRP> BUT, you can do stuff like Disarm with a Lightsaber. That in my book
>JaRP> makes it a HKA.
>
>Since *WHEN* has HKA had the Disarm maneuver built into it?

HKA? With Disarm "built in"?
It may just be a cheesy interpretation, but it seems to me that the
chart on page 153 of the HSR indicates that every *character* has a Disarm
built in. The text on Disarm on page 152 implies that a hand-to-hand
weapon -- that is, one built with HA or HKA -- can be used as a tool for
Disarm.
So am I missing something?
---
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"David Stallard\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Sat, 07 Mar 98 15:50:49
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Invisibility
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On Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:05:16 -0500, David Stallard wrote:

>In my games, we've decided that full Invisibility is just too powerful, so
>we allow it only with a fringe. Is this a reasonable decision?

No. Just because someone's invisible doesn't mean that you can't detect
them. If they're invisible to Sight, well, you just have to listen for
them, scatter flour at them, make them leave footprints... read the D&D
newsgroup. An invisible character is still going to get toasted by your
fireball if he's in the area. Oh yes, there's Detect Invisibility
<ducks>

qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 07 Mar 98 15:59:03
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Other Great Presence Attacks
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On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:19:02 -0500, BILL SVITAVSKY wrote:

>We've had numerous Princess Bride moments mentioned, and Luke's
>failed Presence Attack in ROTJ. What other memorable Presence
>Attacks do people remember?

How about Hamlet? The appearance of the ghost, the whole scene where
they put on a play, and 'To be or not to be' - a presence attack on
himself.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Dave Mattingly\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 07 Mar 98 16:31:15
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Speedsters
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On Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:08:57 -0800, Dave Mattingly wrote:

>Powers END
>30 Superspeed EC
>30a +20 DEX (no figured chars -0)
>30b +6 SPD

This looks to be very iffy. I'd suggest making it Costs End
(-1/2)
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 07 Mar 98 16:35:58
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Speedsters
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On Fri, 06 Mar 1998 07:23:59 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:

> They're different ways to squeeze more value out of your points, usually
>as a matter of bending the rules in a way that gives more value that it's
>worth. A truly blatant example would be an Ego Attack with a -1/2
>Limitation that it doesn't work against inanimate objects.

Inanimate objects don't generally have minds, so this is a -0
Limitation, or just possibly -1/4 if you have some which do (eg magic
swords, Sentinels)
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Are Mentalists boring?
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 08:38:52 -0800
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Theala Sildorian [theala@shore.intercom.net] writes:

>Her mental powers are actually fairly low powered: Ego Attack is
>only 4 dice--which failed to even Con Stun most of the time unless
>I rolled high.

You mean EGO Stun, right? With Mental powers, you can compare the dice
to the Ego, not the Con, for stunning. An average of 14 should be enough
to Ego Stun any agent, and most supers.

Dave Mattingly
mattingly@bigfoot.com

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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 07 Mar 98 16:41:46
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
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On Fri, 06 Mar 1998 11:16:40 -0800, Lizard wrote:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>OK, so what can a lightsabre *do*?
>
>a)HKA, pretty nasty one, too -- 4d6?

3d6 - enough to kill an average person.

>b)Missile Deflection

Nope: that's the character, not the lightsabre - remember when Darth
Vader deflects Han Solo's blaster shot to the wall? Also when Luke
deflected the various objects that DV was TKing at him?

>c)Skill levels w/acrobatics -- remember when Luke did a flip and used
>his lightsabre as a sort of pole (why didn't it cut through the
>ground?)?

Again, that's the character, not the sabre.

>d)Aid to Presence -- 3d6 at least, if you know how to use it. What do
>you think Obi-Wan's Prescence attack was after he sliced up the thug
>at the Cantina?

Nope - Obiwan got the bonus, but had a pretty high base presence -
coolness in action, violent attack, exibiting a power.


qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Autofire and Trigger
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 08:43:25 -0800
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I wrote:
>Absorbo the Great has a 3d6 autofire absorb...
>Absorbo is shot and hit for 5, 5, 6, 7, 9, and 9 body.
>Absorbo absorbs 5, 5, 6, 9, and 9 points (only five shots
>can be absorbed per Absorbo's phase

qts asks:
>Why does Absorbo automatically get to absorb all five attacks?

Hmm... That's a good point. I never thought about it before.

On an autofire attack, the number of hits that succeed depend on how
well the attack roll was made. But since absorb has no attack roll (it
automatically works every time you're hit), I guess it should work for
every hit (up to five, anyway).

Anyone have other suggestions on how to handle it?

Dave Mattingly
http://www.geocities.com/soho/5953

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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Tim R. Gilberg\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Sat, 07 Mar 98 16:51:13
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: RE: Ultra Slots
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On Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:03:28 -0600 (CST), Tim R. Gilberg wrote:

>
>> Heh. Actually, this sounds like a hell of a lot of fun. Probably a Cosmic
>> VPP, with the limitation: Must tell outrageous origin lie to manifest power
>> (-1/4). Ever had a player in a campaign that was 'nothing' but a VPP?
>> Hodgepodge, the man whos lies are stronger than reality!!!
>
> I really like this concept.
>
> On a sort of unrelated not, does anyone know how to build a
>"random" multipower? Something like AD&D's Wand of Wonder.

For a basis, use a VPP and apply No Roll To Change (+1), and No
Conscious Control (-2 if the character can't control when it goes off
or -1 if he can) to the control cost.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 07 Mar 98 16:53:55
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: "Stupid Tricks"
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On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:18:47 -0500, David Fair wrote:

>Disorient foe by spinning him around & making him too dizzy to fight:
>Dex Drain, no range, must follow a successful grab, extra time:Full
>phase

Isn't that a Flash?
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net>
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 17:51:27 +0000
Subject: Re: Are Mentalists boring?
Priority: normal
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

> Theala Sildorian [theala@shore.intercom.net] writes:
>
> >Her mental powers are actually fairly low powered: Ego Attack is
> >only 4 dice--which failed to even Con Stun most of the time unless
> >I rolled high.
>
> You mean EGO Stun, right? With Mental powers, you can compare the
> dice to the Ego, not the Con, for stunning. An average of 14 should
> be enough to Ego Stun any agent, and most supers.

Oops. Yes, I did. I used the term "Con Stun" out of habit. Sorry
for the confusion.

Amy

----------------
Theala Sildorian
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
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From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 17:54:57 +0000
Subject: Re: Are Mentalists boring?
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> Dave Mattingly wrote:
>
> > You mean EGO Stun, right? With Mental powers, you can compare the dice
> > to the Ego, not the Con, for stunning. An average of 14 should be enough
> > to Ego Stun any agent, and most supers.
>
>
> Where did you pull THIS rule from??
>
> This has got to be a house rule - I have never seen anything like
> this in any published book, and would never allow it in any game I
> ran. It makes the egoist WAY overpowered.

I think Dave pulled the rule from 3rd ed--and actually, I think
that's the way my GM has been running it (will have to ask him to be
sure), because we use a lot of hold over rules from prevous
editions--sometimes I get them confused with 4th ed. I just looked
it up, and even tho I meant Ego Stunned in my original message, but
getting it wrong, I got it right <sigh>

Amy

----------------
Theala Sildorian
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

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Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 12:00:25 -0600 (CST)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: "Stupid Tricks"
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On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Filksinger wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 04, 1998 8:11 AM, Dave Mattingly wrote:
> >Here's a classic article on speedster tricks from The Nez Master
> ><nezmaster@ntr.net>:
> >
> >Faster than LIght Travel: I included this one as a power that some
> >speedsters think they can use, and generally can not. It requires
> space
> >flight, which few true speedsters actually have (unless it's a true
> >flying speedster)
>
> Not quite true. A speedster who is on the surface of a planet, moon,
> etc., can use it, because he is "not in atmosphere", which is the "by
> the rules" requirement.

Um, are you saying that because I'm on the surface of the planet, I'm 'not
in atmosphere'?

Whups...hope I bought Life Support...

The speedster could use it on, say, Luna - no atmosphere - but I have
never heard the interpretation of 'not in atmosphere' to mean 'not while
flying in atmosphere'.

> I did enjoy this. One you missed is Teleportation, with the limitation
> that the character actually crosses the intervening space. This allows
> for incredibly fast, even FTL, speedsters without spending a truly
> obscene amount of points on movement.

And here we have a more 'proper' way to do the FTL-running thing.

J

"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"

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Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 13:07:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Are Mentalists boring?
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On Sat, 7 Mar 1998, Dave Mattingly wrote:

> Theala Sildorian [theala@shore.intercom.net] writes:
>
> >Her mental powers are actually fairly low powered: Ego Attack is
> >only 4 dice--which failed to even Con Stun most of the time unless
> >I rolled high.
>
> You mean EGO Stun, right? With Mental powers, you can compare the dice
> to the Ego, not the Con, for stunning. An average of 14 should be enough
> to Ego Stun any agent, and most supers.

Uh... what *are* you talking about? I have never even heard of that rule.
Where is that given?

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net>
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 18:08:42 +0000
Subject: Re: Champions Editions
Priority: normal
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> I've seen references to the first edition, though, as being
> copyright 1982. Were both the first and second editions copyrighted
> that year? My second (?) ed. gives no indication that it's a later
> printing or anything else.


I have a badly beaten copy of 1st ed I picked up el-cheapo on
rec.games.frp.marketplace as part of a package with another
supplement I really wanted. It's copyrighted 1981, but is a 1982
printing and has a black and white cover. Of course, the cover is
separated from the book, so I doubt they belong together. Then I
have another copy that is copyrighted 1981, and seems to be a first
printing--but it has a color cover (same artwork--one's colored and
one isn't, plus the back of the black and white has some tables on
it). Both are in really rotten shape--I got them with other old
champs stuff I got dirt cheap off the newsgroups.

> And just out of curiousity, how many people on this list got into
> the Hero System before the fourth edition? Did anybody start with a
> game other than Champions?

I started gaming in 1979 with AD&D. I was 14, and taught myself the
rules, then taught my brother and a couple of his friends. I had a
chance to learn 1st ed Champions from my boyfriend, but turned it
down because I didn't like comic books, I was a pure fantasy/sci fi
fan at the time. I started Hero System in 1992, when my last AD&D
group broke up--when I advertised on the local bbs for new players, I
got an invite to join a Fantasy Hero game. I originally turned it
down, not wanting to learn a new system, but gave it a try out of
desperation to game--and have never looked back. I still game
with that group. We've played Hero System on just about every genre
you can imagine. Several of the original players in my current group
started out with 1st ed rules, and still use some rules from 2nd and
3rd editions as house rules--which trips me up every now and then
when I game with other groups who are strictly 4th ed--for the
longest time I didn't even have a copy of the rules, I just went by
what my friends taught me.

One guy in my group, Ron Cole, started out gaming with 1st edition.
He's played other systems as we do occasionally play other games, but
for the most part he's strictly a Heroic type of guy, and usually
says he's never seen a need to learn any other system.

Amy

----------------
Theala Sildorian
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

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Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 13:13:59 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Pre Attacks
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On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Filksinger wrote:

> On Wednesday, March 04, 1998 5:22 AM, Michael Surbrook wrote:

PRE Values:

> >
> >Fezzik: 15
> >Humperdink: 20
> >Inigo: 15
> >Wesley: 20
> >Rugen: 18
> >Vezzini: 10
> >
> >Note: this numbers were drawn more from the book descriptions of the
> >characters than the movie.
>
> Fezzik was so impressive that audiences booed him when he beat up
> groups of men in the wrestling ring. Anyone who so impresses people
> that they think he's a bully when beating up six professional
> wrestlers simultaneously has more than a 15 PRE.

No... I disagree. He was booed becuase he beat people so easily. His PRE
doesn't have anything to do with it. Fezzick (in the book) was very
insecure and had a very low sense of self-worth. He gets a 15 PRE by
virtue of his size, and can easily pump this with some sort of PRE
boosting action, but I never got the impression he scared people to a
great deal. Children picked on him if you remember, and Fezzick ended up
hiding in a cave.

> As for the movie Fezzik, he would have, in my campaign, more than a
> 20. Probably closer to a 30.

Very true. The movie Fezzick comes off more 'impressive' than the book
Fezzik. But, I think a 30 is a bit high.

> _My_ favorite presence attack from the movie: "Everybody, move!" A
> clear example of the uses of massive amounts of presence, as I could
> not see fit to give him even a +1d6 for _anything_, offhand.

Yes, but here we are dealing with a comedic scene... I don't think that's
highly indicative of his overall PRE.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
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***************************************************************************

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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Are Mentalists boring?
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 10:49:58 -0800
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I said:
> You mean EGO Stun, right? With Mental powers, you can compare the dice
> to the Ego, not the Con, for stunning. An average of 14 should be
enough
> to Ego Stun any agent, and most supers.

Michael Surbrook [susano@access.digex.net] asked:
>Uh... what *are* you talking about? I have never even heard of that
rule.
>Where is that given?

I don't have the book here with me, but I believe it's either under Ego
Attack or the Stunning section of Combat.

Unless I'm thinking of a 3rd Ed holdover...

Dave Mattingly

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Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 11:12:19 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Adjusting hit locations was:Re: Pre Attacks
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Christopher Taylor wrote:
> >> In a heroic campaing using hit locations how would anyone model the
> >> ability to block a head shot or a vitals shot to an arm or leg or
> >> something. Any ideas?
> >
> >I like that one too... Hmmm... how would one model that? Using your skill
> >levels to modify your attacker's hit location?
>
> I use a modified block roll, if successful you choose the spot...looks like
> this:
>
> MANEUVER TIME OCV DCV EFFECTS
> Interposing Block 1/2 +1 -1 choose area hit
>
> another option is to allow you to use DCV levels to move the roll to the
> location desired, maybe 1 per level (so if he rolls a 4, and you would much
> rather take it in the hand,you would need 2 levels to move it to area 6)

The only problem I have with most of the methods posted so far is that
skill levels have been used in combination with other manouvers to modify the
location of the hit when the same skill levels could have been used to avoid the
hit entirely. Like above, if you are successful in your block, you get hit
elsewhere. A regular block, if successful, you don't get hit at all.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 11:20:12 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Battle tactics/plans
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David Stallard wrote:
>
> I've seen some messages talking about how if you can distract one opponent
> with mental illusions, you can really disrupt the opposing team's tactics.
> This got me thinking...do you (GMs) come up with precise tactics for the
> entire villain team ahead of time? I usually just plop the villains on the
> map and a few of them might team-up for maneuvers like the cannonball
> express or entangling an opponent so that the brick can wallop 'em. If you
> normally come up with a battle plan for your villains, I'd love to hear
> some examples.

One thing I DONT do is have all the villians gang up on one of the
heroes early in the combat. While it is a very sound tactic, it leaves one of
your players sitting out of a major event for sometimes a long time.
Consequence, their interest level sags way down and they are not having any fun,
which is the point of it all.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 14:35:07 -0500
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Champions Editions
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I'm a little confused about the first and second editions of Champions. I
first got into the Hero System around 1983, when I bought what I've always
thought was the second edition. The cover features two costumed guys
fighting, one of whom has a slightly crooked optic blast. (I once had an
opportunity to harass Mark Williams about this; he replied he didn't have a
straight edge handy.) This book is copyright 1982, and looks like somebody
worked it up on a typewriter.

I know there was an earlier version of the rules, since when I bought
Stronghold it referred to earlier "Breaking Things" rules.

The third edition (or what I think is the third edition) had a glossier
cover, no longer looked like it had been done on a typewriter, and had some
minor rules revisions; e.g. Teleport could now buy multiple 2x Distance
modifiers. Meanwhile, Champions 2 and Champions 3 had come out, adding
various powers and rules. Also, another company (Firebird Ltd.) published
the first ed. Golden Age of Champions.

The fourth edition, of course, is our beloved BBB.

I've seen references to the first edition, though, as being copyright 1982.
Were both the first and second editions copyrighted that year? My second
(?) ed. gives no indication that it's a later printing or anything else.

And just out of curiousity, how many people on this list got into the Hero
System before the fourth edition? Did anybody start with a game other than
Champions?

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Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 15:28:26 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Are Mentalists boring?
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On Sat, 7 Mar 1998, Dave Mattingly wrote:

> I said:
> > You mean EGO Stun, right? With Mental powers, you can compare the dice
> > to the Ego, not the Con, for stunning. An average of 14 should be
> enough
> > to Ego Stun any agent, and most supers.
>
> Michael Surbrook [susano@access.digex.net] asked:
> >Uh... what *are* you talking about? I have never even heard of that
> rule.
> >Where is that given?
>
> I don't have the book here with me, but I believe it's either under Ego
> Attack or the Stunning section of Combat.
>
> Unless I'm thinking of a 3rd Ed holdover...

I think you are, since my BB makes no mention of such a rule.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

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Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 15:29:33 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Champions Editions
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On Sat, 7 Mar 1998, Bill Svitavsky wrote:

> And just out of curiousity, how many people on this list got into the Hero
> System before the fourth edition? Did anybody start with a game other than
> Champions?

I got started with 3rd Edition Champs in 1985, and started with Champions
itself.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

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From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Date: Sat, 07 Mar 98 21:43:20
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Champions Editions
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On Sat, 07 Mar 1998 14:35:07 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote:

>I've seen references to the first edition, though, as being copyright 1982.
>Were both the first and second editions copyrighted that year? My second
>(?) ed. gives no indication that it's a later printing or anything else.

I've never seen the first edition, but I've always figured that very little time passes
between 1st and 2nd editions.

>And just out of curiousity, how many people on this list got into the Hero
>System before the fourth edition? Did anybody start with a game other than
>Champions?

I was introduced to the game shortly after 3rd edition Champions came out.

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Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 16:02:29 -0600
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net>
Subject: Re: Are Mentalists boring?
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Dave Mattingly wrote:

> You mean EGO Stun, right? With Mental powers, you can compare the dice
> to the Ego, not the Con, for stunning. An average of 14 should be enough
> to Ego Stun any agent, and most supers.


Where did you pull THIS rule from??

This has got to be a house rule - I have never seen anything like this
in any published book, and would never allow it in any game I ran. It
makes the egoist WAY overpowered.


Todd

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From: ErolB1 <ErolB1@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 17:13:06 EST
Subject: Re: GMing tips :Accessori
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In a message dated 98-03-06 22:05:13 EST, theala@shore.intercom.net writes:

> To make combat go faster in my games, I follow a couple rules of
> thumb:
>
> 1) No fight should last more than 2 Turns. Once 2 Turns have nearly
> gone by, if the players haven't pounded the baddies yet, I start
> looking for ways to get the baddies out of the fight.

This one I just don't get: 2 Turns is 24 seconds - less than half a minute.
IMO a fight this short is appropriate if one side is badly outclassed by the
other (e.g. one or two supers taking out a gang of normal thugs) but not if
the two sides are closer to equal.

Then you go on to say:

> My combats used to take HOURS. Now I generally have combat resolved
> in 30 minutes or so, except for grand finaele combats (which I run
> rarely).

30 minutes to run less than 30 seconds worth of combat. This sort of thing
would raise alarm bells in my head that Something Was Wrong - either with my
method of running combat or with the combat system itself.

What sort of group are you running? If you've got a half-dozen characters on
each side with each character having SPEEDs of 5-8 then I can see thing
bogging down. My own view of how fast combat ought to run might be slightly
skewed since the game I'm currently in has only 2 players, and the GM's
philosophy calls for cutting back on the speed (300 point characters, mine has
SPD 4 and Vox's has SPD 3.)

Erol K. Bayburt
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow

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X-Sender: urklore@pop.tiac.net (Unverified)
Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 19:04:35 -0500
From: Urklore The Iron <urklore@tiac.net>
Subject: Traffic Lights
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

Greetings all,
I was wondering how any of you would simulate the ability to alter traffic
lights or the ability to shut down various parts of a city's power systems
through computer hacking or actually interfacing with the various computer
systems mentioned above?


************************************************************************
* Bill Schwartz, Billcutis of Borg, Iceman Incarnate, Internet Lord *
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X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 16:34:50 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Traffic Lights
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At 07:04 PM 3/7/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Greetings all,
> I was wondering how any of you would simulate the ability to alter traffic
>lights or the ability to shut down various parts of a city's power systems
>through computer hacking or actually interfacing with the various computer
>systems mentioned above?

Id just call that computer programming... dont have to simulate anything,
interfacing with computer programs I usually build as mind control or
telepathy.. or a transform variant.

----------------------------------------------------------
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Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Invisibility
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 07 Mar 1998 19:38:02 -0500
Lines: 26
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To: champ-l@omg.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> writes:

MS> Uh.. Rat? What are you talking about? I read that to mean that the
MS> poster felt fringeless Invisibility was to powerful. I don't think the
MS> number of senses has anything to do with it...

Perhaps I misunderstood the question? Well, I still think it is an
unreasonable ruling because Invisibility to X does not preclude being
sensed by Y.

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Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should
\ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "JaRP" == John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net> writes:

JaRP> Rat, I do wish you'd read the whole message before making snide
JaRP> comments. I never said HKAs had disarm built into them - but you
JaRP> _can_ do a disarm with almost all SFX of a HKA.

No, you can use Disarm maneuvers with melee weapons... and a light saber
bought as a No-Range RKA *IS* a melee weapon. The powers used to build the
weapon are irrelevant to that; it is the special effects of the powers that
determine whether or not they can be used in this fashion.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Traffic Lights
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 07 Mar 1998 19:44:31 -0500
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>>>>> "UTI" == Urklore The Iron <urklore@tiac.net> writes:

UTI> I was wondering how any of you would simulate the ability to alter
UTI> traffic lights or the ability to shut down various parts of a city's
UTI> power systems through computer hacking or actually interfacing with
UTI> the various computer systems mentioned above?

Your first step as the GM is to exactly define the nature of the power
systems and networks in question. This was the problem with Cyber Hero:
the authors *failed* to do that, and the result is powers that do not
really make much sense. To wit, the nature of computer networks in the
Shadowrun world is very much different from what exists in the real world
today; what works in one will not work in the other.

Once you do that you should be able determine what effects are appropriate,
and that should give you some idea as to the powers to use.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 07 Mar 1998 19:53:15 -0500
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>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes:

>> a)HKA, pretty nasty one, too -- 4d6?
q> 3d6 - enough to kill an average person.

3d6, with advantages to allow it to bypass most physical forms of armor.
For instance, the heavy blaster cannon carried by the 'speeders in "The
Empire Strikes Back" failing to even dent AT-AT armor, but Luke slicing
away an armored bulkhead with ease.

For this kind of thing I really like the Armor Piercing variant that Steve
Peterson(?) presented a while back in AC. That is, instead of halving DEF,
DEF is reduced by one for each pip of "Body" damage rolled on the attack,
then the attack's damage is applied against whatever DEF is left. Either
that, or some extra dice of damage that are used only to overcome physical
defenses.

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From: "Ron Abitz" <ronald@centraltx.net>
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 20:11:03 -0600
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To: champ-l@omg.org



----------
> From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
> To: champ-l@omg.org
> Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
> Date: Sunday, March 08, 1998 6:06 PM
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> >>>>> "JaRP" == John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net> writes:
>
> JaRP> I'm already on record as no longer agreeing with this assessment.
> JaRP> Lightsabers have a physical presence,
>
> They are focused beams of coherent light; they have no "physical"
presence
> in the fashion of which you speak.

If that was realy the case they would not "bounce" off of other light saber
or off solid objects.



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X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 19:01:38 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Adjusting hit locations was:Re: Pre Attacks
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To: champ-l@omg.org

>> >> In a heroic campaing using hit locations how would anyone model the
>> >> ability to block a head shot or a vitals shot to an arm or leg or
>> >> something. Any ideas?

> The only problem I have with most of the methods posted so far is that
>skill levels have been used in combination with other manouvers to modify the
>location of the hit when the same skill levels could have been used to
avoid >the hit entirely. Like above, if you are successful in your block,
you get hit
>elsewhere. A regular block, if successful, you don't get hit at all.

yeah but theres a couple problems, sometimes you WILL be hit, and the best
you can do is damage control, or in our case, we have a house rule where
with a block, instead of trying to hit the OCV of the opponent you try to
hit the DCV he hit... so if he hits REALLY well, then you have a harder time
blocking.

Thus you might not be able to block a really skillful opponent, or
especially a really lucky one.

----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:15:15 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

>JaRP> comments. I never said HKAs had disarm built into them - but you
>JaRP> _can_ do a disarm with almost all SFX of a HKA.
>
>No, you can use Disarm maneuvers with melee weapons... and a light saber
>bought as a No-Range RKA *IS* a melee weapon. The powers used to build the
>weapon are irrelevant to that; it is the special effects of the powers that
>determine whether or not they can be used in this fashion.

The Special Effects of a 'phenomena' determine which power is to be used to
simulate it, correct? Well, if the SFX of a lightsaber allows it to be used
as a melee weapon, then it should be bought with the power _built for_ hand
to hand combat - namely, Hand Killing Attack. The fact that the lightsaber
*IS* a melee weapon should preclude No Range RKAs right from the start.

This is basic Champions logic - the 'first sentance' principle, if you like.

"Killing Attack - Hand-to-Hand: A character with this Standard Power can use
a Killing Attack in hand-to-hand combat."

"Killing Attack - Ranged: A character with this Standard Power can project a
Killing Attack at range, like a bullet or laser."

A lightsaber is a Killing Attack (we all agree on this one) that one uses in
hand-to-hand combat. It is not projected at range. Therefore, it is a Hand
Killing Attack.

The only reason people argue for No Range RKA is because the lightsaber
seems to do damage regardless of the STR of the user (which I don't think is
correct, BTW). But that factor can as easily be removed from HKA as range
can be removed from RKA.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

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Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:15:21 -0500 (EST)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

>>> a)HKA, pretty nasty one, too -- 4d6?
>q> 3d6 - enough to kill an average person.
>
>3d6, with advantages to allow it to bypass most physical forms of armor.
>For instance, the heavy blaster cannon carried by the 'speeders in "The
>Empire Strikes Back" failing to even dent AT-AT armor, but Luke slicing
>away an armored bulkhead with ease.

I was under the impression Luke was nailing an access hatch. It was
certainly in an area unlikely to see heavy blaster fire, and the basic
principles of armor say that you put lots more where you're going to be hit
all the time (front, sides, legs), and save weight where possible (belly,
where you only get hit if you miss stomping on some gunnery tower).

>For this kind of thing I really like the Armor Piercing variant that Steve
>Peterson(?) presented a while back in AC. That is, instead of halving DEF,
>DEF is reduced by one for each pip of "Body" damage rolled on the attack,
>then the attack's damage is applied against whatever DEF is left. Either
>that, or some extra dice of damage that are used only to overcome physical
>defenses.

Urg. I don't think we have to get that nasty. IIRC, the lightsabers did
bounce off stuff in the various Luke/Vader fights. It wasn't a 100%
unstoppable cutting tool. Just powerful enough that the armor a 'human'
could wear would mean diddly squat. Armor in Star Wars isn't worth jack
anyways - see how often Stormtroopers go down from blaster shots (while Leia
takes one in the shoulder and just grits her teeth ;-). Stormtrooper armor
didn't even help against the damn Ewoks, for crying out loud.

Where was I? Oh, yeah, lightsabers. :-)

I think straight armor piercing should be enough. A 3D6 Armor Piercing HKA
will go through most armor like nobody's buisiness. Assuming Stormtrooper
armor is DEF 8 (guffaw), an average attack (11 BODY) will hit mister Trooper
for 7 BODY (and most Jedi would rate Find Weakness in my books) and a goodly
amount of STUN. That 11 BODY will put an unarmored joe into Dying country,
BTW. Plenty lethal. More than enough to lop off limbs as required.

I just have to wonder;
A.) What Stormtrooper armor is really worth, and if it's worth anything then
B.) What are those blasters doing for damage?!? Stormtroopers are "One Shot
And He's Down" villians. If they have worthwhile armor at all, those piddly
hand blasters are doing 3D6+ RKA, Armor Piercing - which they obviously
aren't, b/c both Leia and Luke took shots in Return of the Jedi and kept
right on going. I know they're the heros, but geez! Give Stormtroopers a break!






-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

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Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:15:26 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Battle tactics/plans
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

> One thing I DONT do is have all the villians gang up on one of the
>heroes early in the combat. While it is a very sound tactic, it leaves one of
>your players sitting out of a major event for sometimes a long time.
>Consequence, their interest level sags way down and they are not having any
>fun, which is the point of it all.

When this happens I hand off the incidental 'friendly' agents off to the
unconcious PC's player. So those PRIMUS or UNTIL guys show up to join the
fight? Give them to the PCs to run. Let them see superheroic combat from
agent's eyes :-).

If that fails, (i.e. no agents around), let them control a DNPC - preferably
one the villians won't squish out of sheer venom. You know, the 'helpless'
girlfriend in the villian's clutches who suddenly remembers how to knee
somebody in the groin or bash them with a flowerpot or something. Just
remember to veto any suicidal actions to avoid bad player feelings afterwards.

If all that fails, recruit them to the villian's side. <evil grin> Have the
PCs run a baddie or two to keep them occupied while their character is
optioned out.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

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