Week Ending March 14, 1998
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Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 01:53:33 -0600 (CST)
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From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
Subject: Re: Champions Editions
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I have a old version of Champions that is different from the ones with the
two guys fighting on the cover. It has the Guardians flying accross the
cover, it's in color, I have had it since the early 80's but I'm not sure
which is the oldest version. I also have the B&W fight cover from the boxed
set as well as the color one.

I started with D&D but we quickly switched over to fist edition Champions,
since our D&D game had turned into a super hero game.

Michael
Rising Force Publications
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist our seldom updated web site...
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From: "Chris Lea" <cdlea@hotmail.com>
Subject: [HERO] Re: Adjusting hit locations
Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 23:54:18 PST
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Rick Holding wrote:

> The only problem I have with most of the methods posted
>so far is that skill levels have been used in combination
>with other manouvers to modify the location of the hit when
>the same skill levels could have been used to avoid the
>hit entirely. Like above, if you are successful in your
>block, you get hit elsewhere. A regular block, if
>successful, you don't get hit at all.

That's fine if the campaign has no limits on DCV values,
but if it has, and you're already the best you can be, then
you can't use those levels to avoid being hit completely.

Now, having said all that, I'd probably go with a few
points of Armor (only vs. HTH attacks, must be aware of
attack, must have object in hand to parry with, up to a
maximum of 1/2 of the incoming damage, and probably an RSR: Parry skill
to boot), with an SFX of the blow is deflected
to a less vital area.

Chris

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Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 19:46:38 +1100
From: Mad Hamish <h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Adjusting hit locations was:Re: Pre Attacks
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At 09:03 AM 3/4/98 -0700, Curtis Gibson wrote:
>Mike Christodoulou wrote:
>>
>> At 11:05 PM 3/3/98 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>> >
>> >> And oh yes, don't forget a certain Spaniard, who despite being in an
>> >> inferior position in combat (-2d6) managed to pull off a remarkably
>> >> successful PRE attack on Count Rugen, with the help of an excellent
>> >> soliloquy (It had better be - he'd been practicing it for years!
+2d6) and
>> >> surprise ("You're still trying to kill me? You have an overdeveloped
sense
>> >> of vengeance." +1d6). I'm not sure if Rugen was aware of Inigo's
>> >> reputation, but he was certainly aware of his skill...
>> >
>> > Oh, quite. He had killed those four guards with remarkable ease.
>> >Rugen was a bit shaken, but not running at this point. He tried to fight,
>> >remember. Key word tried.
>> >
>>
>> Almost argues for a modification to the Presence Attack rules to
>> allow an OCV minus for nervousness due to the Presence Attack.
>
>"Stop saying that!"
>
>One bit in this fight that I have never figured out (elegantly) how to
>model in HERO:
>Ruegen attacks, and Inigo blocks, but instead of a clean block, or a
>clean chest shot for Ruegen it gets his arm (first two thrusts after the
>thrown dagger). I could see this as color for the stun mult/location
>roll but....

Actually that's not how I saw it. I always saw that as just _missing_ the
arm but hitting the sleeve of Inigo's shirt. a perfect block.

>
>In a heroic campaing using hit locations how would anyone model the
>ability to block a head shot or a vitals shot to an arm or leg or
>something. Any ideas?

martial art maneuver block as a power with limitiation not giving full
effect -1/4 or -1/2 for only to change hit location. Or limited missile
reflection.

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of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
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Mad Hamish

Hamish Laws
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Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 19:47:41 +1100
From: Mad Hamish <h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Power Frameworks (Colosus)
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At 06:27 AM 3/4/98 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:
>> > with some Elemental Controls,one obvious - to me - elemental control in
>> > comics would be Marvel's Colossus
>>
>> Possibly, but without the stats.
>>
>> > I'd see him as having an elemental control
>> > Organic Steel Body - all only in hero ID
>> > Armour
>> > Increased Strength, Increased Endurance, Increased body, Endurance etc
>> > more armour versus heat/cold, electricity and radiation
>>
> I'd just give him two powers myself:
>
> X lvls density increase

he'd probably have some but there's no way that he weighs as much as he'd
need to if his strength was all due to density increase.

> resistant defense
>
> Then buy up his stun, PD, and ED to needed values.
>
They'd need a limitation though, either only in hero ID or something
similar as he is nowhere near as tough in human form

> He's probably only a 250 pointer or less even.
>
> Is the LS documented? I think it is... If so, it's an easy add in.
>
Well apart from everything else it's listed in his MSH writeup that he can
stand temperatures between -390 F and 9000 F without problems and has a
reduced need for breathing, I've seen him stand high pressure and vacuum in
the comics iirc, although it's assumed that he needs _some_ oxygen.

****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
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of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************

Mad Hamish

Hamish Laws
h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au
h_laws@tassie.net.au

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From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: Champions Editions
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 04:35:21 -0500
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> And just out of curiousity, how many people on this list got into the
Hero
> System before the fourth edition? Did anybody start with a game other
than
> Champions?

I got hooked on Champions in the early 80s with the 2nd edition rulebook.
I became interested in RPGs as a kid in the mid 70s with the old 3 volume
set of D&D paperback rule books, when there were only three character
classes--the thief class hadn't been invented yet. I couldn't find anyone
interested in playing the game, as so few people had ever heard of D&D. I
picked up the set by mail order from a company that sold mostly
traditional wargames, after reading a brief plug for the game in Jerry
Pournelle's "A Step Farther Out" science fact column in the now extinct
Galaxy magazine. I didn't find a gaming group until a few years later,
when a high school friend had begun playing the recently published AD&D
hardbound books.


Len Carpenter
redlion@early.com

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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 01:43:53 -0800
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On Saturday, March 07, 1998 6:26 PM, John and Ron Prins wrote:


<snip>
>I just have to wonder;
>A.) What Stormtrooper armor is really worth, and if it's worth
anything then

6 PD, 6 ED, Hardened

>B.) What are those blasters doing for damage?!? Stormtroopers are
"One Shot
>And He's Down" villians. If they have worthwhile armor at all, those
piddly
>hand blasters are doing 3D6+ RKA, Armor Piercing - which they
obviously
>aren't, b/c both Leia and Luke took shots in Return of the Jedi and
kept
>right on going. I know they're the heros, but geez! Give
Stormtroopers a break!


2d6 RKA, AP, +6 pts (2d6, semi-official rule variant), only to
penetrate armor.

The armor worked some against the Ewoks, as the Ewoks had to drag
Stormtroopers down and beat and beat on them, so it isn't completely
useless. Assuming that most of their enemies use slug throwers or
older, less effective blasters, the armor might be useful. However, it
would be useless against blasters such as I just described.

I might also give it LS. It may even be Immune to Vacuum.

Filksinger

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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"John and Ron Prins\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 08 Mar 98 10:57:22
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
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On Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:15:21 -0500 (EST), John and Ron Prins wrote:

>I just have to wonder;
>A.) What Stormtrooper armor is really worth, and if it's worth anything then
>B.) What are those blasters doing for damage?!? Stormtroopers are "One Shot
>And He's Down" villians. If they have worthwhile armor at all, those piddly
>hand blasters are doing 3D6+ RKA, Armor Piercing - which they obviously
>aren't, b/c both Leia and Luke took shots in Return of the Jedi and kept
>right on going. I know they're the heros, but geez! Give Stormtroopers a break!

Don't forget that Stormtroopers automatically get hit in Head or
Vitals, whereas our Heroes get hit in lesser locations.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 08:50:59 -0500 (EST)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
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>>I just have to wonder;
>>A.) What Stormtrooper armor is really worth, and if it's worth
>>anything then
>
>6 PD, 6 ED, Hardened

Don't you think that's a bit low? That's little better than chainmail. Given
the tech level of Star Wars, Stormtroopers armor should be better than that
(despite all appearances - the poor Stormtroopers were getting the short end
of dramatic license...).

>>B.) What are those blasters doing for damage?!?

>2d6 RKA, AP, +6 pts (2d6, semi-official rule variant), only to
>penetrate armor.

Gah. I always thought 'extra damage for going through armor' was cheezy. I
guess if I GM'ed a game of Star Wars HERO, the Stormtroopers would be a lot
harder to take out (though they'd only be DEX 10 thanks to bulky armor,
they'd have a good 9-10 DEF and carry some pretty big blasters).

>useless. Assuming that most of their enemies use slug throwers or
>older, less effective blasters, the armor might be useful. However, it
>would be useless against blasters such as I just described.

Therein lies the problem. Everybody in Star Wars uses blasters. Rat's-ass
backwater Tattoine, everybody used blasters. Just once I'd have like to have
seen a Stormtrooper take a blaster shot, maybe get knocked over, and get
back up and keep shooting (or maybe later say "Good thing I'm wearing body
armor...").

>I might also give it LS. It may even be Immune to Vacuum.

Not the basic Stormtrooper armor, I don't think. Maybe a small oxygen supply
and filters, but Vacuum protection? Hmmm...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

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Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 08:51:02 -0500 (EST)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
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>Don't forget that Stormtroopers automatically get hit in Head or
>Vitals, whereas our Heroes get hit in lesser locations.

But Stormtroopers use bigger blasters...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

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Subject: Re: Champions Editions
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From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 09:48:58 EST
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>> I've seen references to the first edition, though, as being
>> copyright 1982. Were both the first and second editions copyrighted
>> that year? My second (?) ed. gives no indication that it's a later
>> printing or anything else.

(Digging through the bookshelves.) I started out with the boxed set --
rulebook with the crooked-eyebeam guy on the cover, the "Viper's Nest"
scenario and a basic hex-map; according to the dedication it's second
edition. The copyright info says "Copyright 1981 ...Revised Edition
copyright 1982".

Leah

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Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 07:08:08 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Are Mentalists boring?
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At 08:38 AM 3/7/1998 -0800, Dave Mattingly wrote:
>Theala Sildorian [theala@shore.intercom.net] writes:
>
>>Her mental powers are actually fairly low powered: Ego Attack is
>>only 4 dice--which failed to even Con Stun most of the time unless
>>I rolled high.
>
>You mean EGO Stun, right? With Mental powers, you can compare the dice
>to the Ego, not the Con, for stunning. An average of 14 should be enough
>to Ego Stun any agent, and most supers.

Huh? I checked under Mental Powers, Ego Attack, and Stunning (under
Effects of Damage), and found no such rule. I've never heard of it before,
either.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 07:11:34 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Are Mentalists boring?
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At 05:54 PM 3/7/1998 +0000, Theala Sildorian wrote:
>I think Dave pulled the rule from 3rd ed--and actually, I think
>that's the way my GM has been running it (will have to ask him to be
>sure), because we use a lot of hold over rules from prevous
>editions--sometimes I get them confused with 4th ed. I just looked
>it up, and even tho I meant Ego Stunned in my original message, but
>getting it wrong, I got it right <sigh>

Actually -- and this has been a topic of brief discussion before on the
list -- the proper term is just plain "Stunned," since there's no other way
of Stunning a character other than with CON. (Though if that rule did
indeed exist in 3rd edition -- and I sure don't remember it -- it would
explain the source of that term.)
---
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Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 07:17:04 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Autofire and Trigger
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At 08:43 AM 3/7/1998 -0800, Dave Mattingly wrote:
>I wrote:
>>Absorbo the Great has a 3d6 autofire absorb...
>>Absorbo is shot and hit for 5, 5, 6, 7, 9, and 9 body.
>>Absorbo absorbs 5, 5, 6, 9, and 9 points (only five shots
>>can be absorbed per Absorbo's phase
>
>qts asks:
>>Why does Absorbo automatically get to absorb all five attacks?
>
>Hmm... That's a good point. I never thought about it before.
>
>On an autofire attack, the number of hits that succeed depend on how
>well the attack roll was made. But since absorb has no attack roll (it
>automatically works every time you're hit), I guess it should work for
>every hit (up to five, anyway).
>
>Anyone have other suggestions on how to handle it?

I personally can't see the point to Autofire Absorption other than as a
point crock. Absorption doesn't use Attack Rolls (as you note) and doesn't
work against a defense, so it becomes nothing more than a cheap way to buy
five times the number of dice (or, at least, a quick 5X maximum amount
absorbed) for a quick +1/2 Advantage.
Absorbo should just take 3d6 Absorption with +72 points to the maximum
that can be absorbed.
On the other hand, if Absorbo can only absorb five shots per phase with
a normal 3d6 Absorption, then that would probably be a Limitation, though
probably no more than -1/4 since he's not likely to run into that real
often unless it's vs Physical attacks.
---
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Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 07:24:39 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Speedsters
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At 04:35 PM 3/7/1998, \"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> wrote:
>On Fri, 06 Mar 1998 07:23:59 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>> They're different ways to squeeze more value out of your points, usually
>>as a matter of bending the rules in a way that gives more value that it's
>>worth. A truly blatant example would be an Ego Attack with a -1/2
>>Limitation that it doesn't work against inanimate objects.
>
>Inanimate objects don't generally have minds, so this is a -0
>Limitation, or just possibly -1/4 if you have some which do (eg magic
>swords, Sentinels)

That's the point -- inanimate objects don't have minds, so taking a
Limitation value for Ego Attack that doesn't work vs inanimate objects is
an obvious point crock. (I doubt that I'd even classify the magic swords
as "inanimate objects," and I'm totally certain that Canadian superheroes
aren't inanimate.)
---
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X-Sender: mactyre@mail.aci.net
Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 08:21:41 -0800
From: Matthew Mactyre <mactyre@aci.net>
Subject: Re: Traffic Lights
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 04:34 PM 3/7/98 -0800, you wrote:
>> I was wondering how any of you would simulate the ability to alter
traffic
>>lights or the ability to shut down various parts of a city's power
systems

>Id just call that computer programming... dont have to simulate
anything,
>interfacing with computer programs I usually build as mind control or
>telepathy.. or a transform variant.

How about "Computer Programming" usable at range? <g>

Matthew
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Matthew Mactyre
mcm@mactyre.net
http://www.mactyre.net
Join us on IRC Dalnet #herochat to discuss Hero games

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X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 08:23:35 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Champions Editions
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At 09:48 AM 3/8/98 EST, you wrote:
>>> I've seen references to the first edition, though, as being
>>> copyright 1982. Were both the first and second editions copyrighted
>>> that year? My second (?) ed. gives no indication that it's a later
>>> printing or anything else.
>
>(Digging through the bookshelves.) I started out with the boxed set --
>rulebook with the crooked-eyebeam guy on the cover, the "Viper's Nest"
>scenario and a basic hex-map; according to the dedication it's second
>edition. The copyright info says "Copyright 1981 ...Revised Edition
>copyright 1982".

Thats the one I started with, which has since disintigrated to the point of
being in a box somewhere... still have the itty dice :)

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Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 08:46:09 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Are Mentalists boring?
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> Actually -- and this has been a topic of brief discussion before on the
>list -- the proper term is just plain "Stunned," since there's no other way
>of Stunning a character other than with CON. (Though if that rule did
>indeed exist in 3rd edition -- and I sure don't remember it -- it would
>explain the source of that term.)

Ive never understood why there is confusion, but :) if you MUST you could
call it 'Conned' I suppose LOL, stunned makes sense, its not easy to confuse
with being unconscious. I guess it comes from the stat STUN and the name
stunned... but um, its fairly common usage, walk into the cupboard door
without expecting it, get stunned...

which brings me to my second point... we use a house rule, instead of
doubling stun from surprise attacks, we half CON for purposes of being
stunned... seems to work more realistically, or believably at least.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "JaRP" == John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net> writes:

JaRP> The fact that the lightsaber *IS* a melee weapon should preclude No
JaRP> Range RKAs right from the start.

But because with a light saber the weilder's strength has little to do with
how much damage it does, precluding limited RKA forces you to use a power
construct that does not quite fit the special effects in question.
Remember, "No Range" is a "standard" limitation for powers such as Energy
Blast and RKA, while "cannot add strength" is not a "standard" limitation.

Occam's Razor: the simplest solution is probably the most correct. The
light saber is an RKA with the No Range limitation. The one time that we
see a light saber "thrown", there was enough control on it that I would
have to say that it was being weilded with Telekenesis.

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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
\

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 12:55:35 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

>JaRP> The fact that the lightsaber *IS* a melee weapon should preclude No
>JaRP> Range RKAs right from the start.
>
>But because with a light saber the weilder's strength has little to do with
>how much damage it does,

I'm already on record as no longer agreeing with this assessment.
Lightsabers have a physical presence, the strength of the user should be
important in how deep it carves into anything. The fact that it's a BIG
killing attack is what confuses people. If a lightsaber does 3D6 KA, Armor
Piercing, then no wonder people don't think strength is involved. Not when
you're dishing out 11 BODY, AP on the average strike. When lightsabers hit,
they generally kill or maim (though didn't Luke get a 'glancing' blow to the
shoulder on Vader in RotJ?) by virtue of their nature alone, but there's no
'hard' evidence either way to say that STR is or is not involved.

Besides, if you do have a 3D6 AP HKA, unless you've got a LOT of STR, your
STR will have 'little' relative effect on overall damage. You need something
like 21 STR to get a full extra die of damage! This would be good for the
Wookie or Vader, but piddly 'lil Luke is SOL - especially if the Lightsaber
has a STR Minimum. He'll be lucky to get +1 BODY out his lightsaber with his
STR. Look at it this way. Take a lightsaber, turn it on. Put it point down
on a thick steel slab. Let it go. In theory, assuming you've balanced it or
have a guide, it should sink in, right? But I'll bet you dollars to donuts
it'll go in faster if somebody PUSHES it down. Since in both cases the
lightsaber has to do a certain amount of BODY before it goes all the way
through the slab, the 'pushed' lightsaber is doing more damage in the same
amount of time - that extra damage is coming from STR. Just like pushing a
hot knife through butter - STR does help!

And that, Rat, is the 'simplest solution' - a HKA, with some AP thrown in.
It's the power designed to do killing damage in hand to hand combat. Doesn't
get any simpler.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

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X-Sender: jrc@pop1.nai.net
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 13:01:50 -0500
From: "Joe Claffey Jr." <jrc@mail1.nai.net>
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes,
>>>>>> "JaRP" == John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net> writes:
>
>JaRP> The fact that the lightsaber *IS* a melee weapon should preclude No
>JaRP> Range RKAs right from the start.
>
>But because with a light saber the weilder's strength has little to do with
>how much damage it does, precluding limited RKA forces you to use a power
>construct that does not quite fit the special effects in question.
>Remember, "No Range" is a "standard" limitation for powers such as Energy
>Blast and RKA, while "cannot add strength" is not a "standard" limitation.

Neither one is a standard Limitation, actually. "Power has no range" is
one of the examples listed under LImited Power.

>Occam's Razor: the simplest solution is probably the most correct. The
>light saber is an RKA with the No Range limitation.

Neither solution is any more (or less) correct than the other. HKA (STR
doesn't add) and RKA (No range) have identical costs and identical game
mechanics. It doesn't make a difference which one you use.

Joe Claffey | "In the end, everything is a gag."
jrc@ct1.nai.net | - Charlie Chaplin


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: ErolB1 <ErolB1@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 13:05:29 EST
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

In a message dated 98-03-08 08:55:32 EST, jprins@interhop.net writes:

> >>I just have to wonder;
> >>A.) What Stormtrooper armor is really worth, and if it's worth
> >>anything then
> >
> >6 PD, 6 ED, Hardened
>
> Don't you think that's a bit low? That's little better than chainmail.
Given
> the tech level of Star Wars, Stormtroopers armor should be better than that
> (despite all appearances - the poor Stormtroopers were getting the short
end
> of dramatic license...).

My own rationalization would be that Stormtroper armor has a Limitation "Only
vs BODY" on most or all of its PD & ED. A single blaster shot will put a
Stormtrooper down, but only through Stun - he'll get better after the battle.
(This also explains why stormtroopers are such cold-blooded fanatics as to
charge into blaster fire. They're not afraid to die because they're not afraid
of dying.)

I'd also give the armor more ED than PD, maybe 6 PD, 12 ED. As you note in a
part of your post I didn't quote, "Everyone in Star Wars uses blasters." So
that's what stormtrooper armor is designed to protect against. (And then the
stormtroopers find themselves vulnerable to "primitive" physical attacks:
Angry Wookies, Ewocks with rocks, and Han Solo's martial art throws in ROTJ.)

Erol K. Bayburt
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 08 Mar 98 19:12:00
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Speedsters
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

On Sun, 08 Mar 1998 07:24:39 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:

>At 04:35 PM 3/7/1998, \"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> wrote:
>>On Fri, 06 Mar 1998 07:23:59 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>
>>> They're different ways to squeeze more value out of your points, usually
>>>as a matter of bending the rules in a way that gives more value that it's
>>>worth. A truly blatant example would be an Ego Attack with a -1/2
>>>Limitation that it doesn't work against inanimate objects.
>>
>>Inanimate objects don't generally have minds, so this is a -0
>>Limitation, or just possibly -1/4 if you have some which do (eg magic
>>swords, Sentinels)
>
> That's the point -- inanimate objects don't have minds, so taking a
>Limitation value for Ego Attack that doesn't work vs inanimate objects is
>an obvious point crock.

Exactly.

>(I doubt that I'd even classify the magic swords
>as "inanimate objects," and I'm totally certain that Canadian superheroes
>aren't inanimate.)

In my FH campaigns they aren't exactly common, either.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"John and Ron Prins\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 08 Mar 98 19:13:45
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

On Sun, 8 Mar 1998 08:51:02 -0500 (EST), John and Ron Prins wrote:

>>Don't forget that Stormtroopers automatically get hit in Head or
>>Vitals, whereas our Heroes get hit in lesser locations.
>
>But Stormtroopers use bigger blasters...

<pout>

My one's bigger than yours, so there!

</pout>

<g> added for the humour impaired.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Autofire and Trigger
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 12:15:03 -0800
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

I wrote:
>>Absorbo the Great has a 3d6 autofire absorb...
>>Absorbo is shot and hit for 5, 5, 6, 7, 9, and 9 body.
>>Absorbo absorbs 5, 5, 6, 9, and 9 points (only five shots
>>can be absorbed per Absorbo's phase

Bob G wrote:
>Autofire Absorption becomes nothing more than a cheap way to buy
>five times the number of dice (or, at least, a quick 5X maximum
>amount absorbed) for a quick +1/2 Advantage.

+1 Advantage, actually, since it's not an EB or KA.

But if Absorbo were hit by 5, 5, 6, 7, and 9, each of his 3d6 rolls
would have to roll higher than the attacks. Autofire Absorb just means
that the absorb is more effective against multiple small attacks than it
is against a single large attack. A single attack that did 20 Body could
easily be absorbed with a 6d6 Absorb (for the same cost), but not by a
3d6 Autofire Absorb -- only the amount rolled on the Absorb dice.

Absorbo would do great against Dr. Destroyer's minions, but badly
against Dr. D himself.

Dave Mattingly

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 14:22:54 -0600
From: Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org>
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org


New Disad: Stormtrooper Armor (20 pts)

You get:
+6 PD / -6 ED Armor
-4 DCV vs Blasters (the chest blaster-bolt-magnet)
-4 DCV, only to offset range penalties
-3 to Visual and Hearing PER rols

(-30 active points, OIF)


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 13:04:41 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Traffic Lights
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

Christopher Taylor wrote:
>
> At 07:04 PM 3/7/98 -0500, you wrote:
> >Greetings all,
> > I was wondering how any of you would simulate the ability to alter traffic
> >lights or the ability to shut down various parts of a city's power systems
> >through computer hacking or actually interfacing with the various computer
> >systems mentioned above?
>
> Id just call that computer programming... dont have to simulate anything,
> interfacing with computer programs I usually build as mind control or
> telepathy.. or a transform variant.

Or, if one has access to a terminal, garden-variety Computer Hacking.


<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net>
Subject: Stormtroopers (Was Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks)
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 16:11:23 -0500 (EST)
Organization: VTSFFC
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

> On Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:15:21 -0500 (EST), John and Ron Prins wrote:
> Don't forget that Stormtroopers automatically get hit in Head or
> Vitals, whereas our Heroes get hit in lesser locations.
> qts
>

Actually, I'd just give Stormtroopers and such a Limitation:
"X3 Damage from Player Characters". :-)

For similar effects, there is a an item in GURPS Black Ops:
"Total Bad Ass". Any character with this can automatically kill or
maim any character without it instantly. Only credible for certain
highly coneamatic genres (most Arnie movies come to mind).

OK, so this can all come down to the old "Is this an Advantage on the
toaster or a Limitation on the bread?" debate.....


Daniel Pawtowski

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net>
Subject: Stormtroopers (was Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks)
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 16:15:38 -0500 (EST)
Organization: VTSFFC
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

>
> Therein lies the problem. Everybody in Star Wars uses blasters. Rat's-ass
> backwater Tattoine, everybody used blasters. Just once I'd have like to have
> seen a Stormtrooper take a blaster shot, maybe get knocked over, and get
> back up and keep shooting (or maybe later say "Good thing I'm wearing body
> armor...").
>

If you look very carefully at the opening battle of Star Wars, right after
they blow the hatch and rush into Leia's ship, you can see Rebel blaster
shots _are_ bouncing off the Stromtrooper armor. It's hard to notice
because the actors in question are not reacting the the shots at all,
they were apparently told to just walk in and attack, and the SFX guys
added in little slivers of light later.
Whih means we have armor that allows you to *completely* ignore blaster
fire in one scene, which can be penetrated by spear-armed teddy bears
in another scene.

Daniel Pawtowski

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net>
Subject: Meaning of Stunned (Was Re: Are Mentalists Boring)
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 16:21:16 -0500 (EST)
Organization: VTSFFC
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

> Actually -- and this has been a topic of brief discussion before on the
> list -- the proper term is just plain "Stunned," since there's no other way
> of Stunning a character other than with CON. (Though if that rule did
>

In another variant, I've found a group of gamers in Seattle who use the
term "Instantly Stunned". Never built up the nerve (made Ego roll? :-)
to ask them where it came from, it's been puzzleing me for weeks.

Daniel Pawtowski


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 13:39:32 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>

>
> For this kind of thing I really like the Armor Piercing variant that Steve
> Peterson(?) presented a while back in AC. That is, instead of halving DEF,
> DEF is reduced by one for each pip of "Body" damage rolled on the attack,
> then the attack's damage is applied against whatever DEF is left. Either
> that, or some extra dice of damage that are used only to overcome physical
> defenses.

Why not simply do this using BBB powers and advantages?

57 3D6 RKA Time Delay(+1/4) 4x8 charges(-0)
10 1D6 Drain Any Phys PD(+1/4) fade/min(+1/4) 4x8c(-0) Linked(-1/2)
--
67 Same Total Cost as 3D6 RKA AP(+1/2) 4x8charges(-0)

Explanations: SFX is an Anti-Armor Artilley Shell
"Time Delay" allows the RKA to hit after the Drain, rather than before.
"Any PD" affects the "outermost" PD or rPD power with a resistive SFX.
The usual order is: Force Wall, Force Field, Armor,
Damage Resistance, PD, but this can vary by SFX.
Non-resistive SFX might include luck, time travel, teleport.
The fade rate *should* logically be longer, but there are
diminishing returns, and armor can be repaired.

--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net>
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 21:40:52 +0000
Subject: Re: GMing tips :Accessori
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

> In a message dated 98-03-06 22:05:13 EST, theala@shore.intercom.net
> writes:
>
> This one I just don't get: 2 Turns is 24 seconds - less than half a
> minute. IMO a fight this short is appropriate if one side is badly
> outclassed by the other (e.g. one or two supers taking out a gang of
> normal thugs) but not if the two sides are closer to equal.

Not at all. Anyone who's boxed, or been in the martial arts, or
been in a combat situation will tell you 3 seconds is one HELL of a
long time. A lot can happen in just a few seconds, and often things
get so jammed together that the participants have trouble remembering
all the details. Having worked in corrections, and seen inmate
disturbances first hand, I know--these altercations take less than 30
seconds usually, but a lot happens. Also, I've competed in martial
arts tournaments with rounds lasting 3 minutes--it seems like
forever.

>
> Then you go on to say:
>
> > My combats used to take HOURS. Now I generally have combat resolved
> > in 30 minutes or so, except for grand finaele combats (which I run
> > rarely).
>
> 30 minutes to run less than 30 seconds worth of combat. This sort of
> thing would raise alarm bells in my head that Something Was Wrong -
> either with my method of running combat or with the combat system
> itself.

If you run strictly by the rules with a medium sized group (say six
players), it CAN take that long, esp if you use a hex map that keeps
careful track of things like range modifiers, position etc. The
length of combat has been one of the major complaints about the
system for years, so I don't understand your surprise.

> What sort of group are you running? If you've got a half-dozen
> characters on each side with each character having SPEEDs of 5-8
> then I can see thing bogging down. My own view of how fast combat
> ought to run might be slightly skewed since the game I'm currently
> in has only 2 players, and the GM's philosophy calls for cutting
> back on the speed (300 point characters, mine has SPD 4 and Vox's
> has SPD 3.)

Average SPD in my supers game is 5-6, with a couple of characters
with speeds 8, and one speedster with SPD 11. Hell, the first
Fantasy Hero game I played in (my intro to the system) with
characters ave SPD 3 bogged down because of the sheer number of
goblins the players had to face--they were easy to kill, but there
were a lot of them, and it took a long time. One game I played in
recently, the GM did what you do, average speed was 4, I played a
martial artist with SPD 5 (fastest among the PCs), and it still
bogged down--despite the GMs best efforts to keep moving things
along.

That's why Fuzion was developed, in part. To fix length of
combat--and they had to create a whole new game system to do it.
Fuzion players I know tell me combat is very quick in that system.

Amy

----------------
Theala Sildorian
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net>
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 21:44:10 +0000
Subject: RE: GMing tips :Accessori
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

> Consider how long you combat would take if you had 6 players, each
> with a 6 speed (the characters in my game run from SPD 5 to 7, with
> the average probably being 5.8 or so). Combat takes a while to do
> combat, but we enjoy it. My players prefer role-playing to combat,
> but I discovered that having gaming sessions with no combat is not
> as fun. I always try and have one minor (usually pretty short)
> combat per gaming session, with a major one at the end of the
> adventure. It usually takes two to four gaming sessions to reach
> the end of an adventure.


I used to run adventures based around classic comic book style
combats. It was boring. I switched to a soap opera approch and a
storytelling GMing style. I recently went 8 sessions and no one ever
touched the dice--and we had the time of our lives. I no longer
introduce combat without good reason or unless the players go looking
for it (see Aaron Allston's description of "wandering damage" on his
home page--that's what random combats in Champions have come to mean
to me). I take weeks to run a single story seed, and in the
meantime, I plant other seeds that will take months to completely
play out. But there's always something going on, even if it's not a
constant slugfest :D

Amy

----------------
Theala Sildorian
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Michael Sprague <msprague@eznet.net>
Subject: RE: Champions Editions
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 17:11:54 -0500
Encoding: 98 TEXT
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

> I'm a little confused about the first and second editions of Champions. I
> first got into the Hero System around 1983, when I bought what I've
always
> thought was the second edition. The cover features two costumed guys
> fighting, one of whom has a slightly crooked optic blast. (I once had an
> opportunity to harass Mark Williams about this; he replied he didn't have
a
> straight edge handy.) This book is copyright 1982, and looks like
somebody
> worked it up on a typewriter.

I'm sure I have the second edition rules, which I purchased at Christmas in
'83. I do know it was part of a boxed set. Inside the cover it says:

Copyright 1981
Revised Edition Copyright 1982
Fourth Printing July 1983

Our GM had an earlier edition, which I believe had a different cover
design, but I am unsure if it was actually first edition, based on what I
have first edition looked like.

I wonder if there were different covers on different printed editions, or
if the book was sold by itself with one cover, and in the boxed set with
another?

> The third edition (or what I think is the third edition) had a glossier
> cover, no longer looked like it had been done on a typewriter, and had
some
> minor rules revisions; e.g. Teleport could now buy multiple 2x Distance
> modifiers. Meanwhile, Champions 2 and Champions 3 had come out, adding
> various powers and rules. Also, another company (Firebird Ltd.) published
> the first ed. Golden Age of Champions.

I saw Champions II and III before I saw a copy of the third edition. The
third edition copies I saw (I never owned one) were a quite a bit thicker,
and I remember them having the same cover design as the one my original GM
had (I couldn't verify that, as I had graduated from college, gotten a job
and moved by then).

I seem to remember that they had part of the Champs II and III materials in
them, but I could easily be wrong on that memory, as I never owned a copy.

> The fourth edition, of course, is our beloved BBB.

Yeah, and it took me a long time to unlearn some of the pre fourth edition
stuff too!!!

> And just out of curiousity, how many people on this list got into the
Hero
> System before the fourth edition? Did anybody start with a game other
than
> Champions?

As a freshman in college, I was introduced to playing D&D (not Advanced or
Basic, but the original) late in the fall of '78. Over time, we played
other fantasy based games and systems, but never really got in to them.
[Note: I spent a few extra years in college because I didn't know what I
wanted to do at first (learned real quick that I wasn't interested in being
a Chemical Engineer), I wasn't as serious a student as I should have been,
:-) and because I ended up getting two degrees.]

Around the spring of '83, a friend of mine who was into comics big time
wanted to play V&V. We took a hard look at the rules, but none of us liked
the random rolls for powers, so we started modifying the rules a little but
never did play it. At the same time, I was getting pretty frustrated with
D&D and AD&D. I didn't really like the concept and restrictions of
character classes, the concept of alignments and the random characteristics
rolls. I was spending some time seriously rewriting the rules to suite me
(and I knew a lot of people doing the same at the same time).

Then, late in the fall of '83, a friend of some friends decided that he
wanted to run a new game he had gotten called Champions, and I was invited
to join in. We had a lot of fun. Some of my D&D friends were aghast that I
would consider playing anything else ... though over time, most of us ended
up playing Champions more than D&D. I picked up my copy of the rules over
Christmas, and read them through. I looked at the piles of paper I had
generated for improving D&D, felt a little ill at the time I had wasted ...
and have never touched them since (though I still can't get myself to toss
them out).

My first Champions character had just died, due to the GM misunderstanding
how defenses worked against autofire, so it was a great time to do a new
one. I came up with a pretty good Power Armor character, that I played for
the rest of my time in college. Ah fond memories. While I still enjoy
playing a lot, those were the best of times. I guess it was a combination
of the people I was playing with, and the newness of the game.

A couple of us picked up Justice Inc (my all time favorite Hero Systems
game), but we never got a chance to play it before I graduated. Once I
moved out here, I located two groups of players, one playing AD&D and one
playing Champions, and joined in. Through me, the groups merged (sigh,
there are only two of us left out of those two groups now), and once
Fantasy Hero came out, that was the end of our playing D&D!

I could go on, but won't ... I'm sure your already bored by this time. :-)

~ Mike

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Michael Sprague <msprague@eznet.net>
Subject: RE: cybernetics
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 17:20:33 -0500
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> You might want to try and find a copy of Cyber Hero, even though the
> Net Running rules bugged me, the cybernetics stuff was pretty clean.

I found that the text (where not screwed up) was pretty good, but the
implementation was somewhat lacking (or outright wrong). We had a copy of
the Beta test rules, written by Curtis Scott (who, alas, is no longer with
us), and we went back and adapted a number of things he had done.

While I don't regret buying Cyber Hero, it was a fairly disappointing book.

One of my more favorite characters comes from playing Cyber Hero. His name
was Blackwulf (based roughly on the GrimJack comic book character), and I
had written him up as a Champions character back in '85, but he never
worked out as a good character. He was great for Cyber Hero though, and he
might have made a good Dark Champions character too.

~ Mike

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From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford)
Subject: Re: Stormtroopers (was Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks)
Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 22:23:59 GMT
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On Sun, 8 Mar 1998 16:15:38 -0500 (EST), you wrote:


> If you look very carefully at the opening battle of Star Wars, right after
>they blow the hatch and rush into Leia's ship, you can see Rebel blaster
>shots _are_ bouncing off the Stromtrooper armor. It's hard to notice
>because the actors in question are not reacting the the shots at all,
>they were apparently told to just walk in and attack, and the SFX guys
>added in little slivers of light later.
> Whih means we have armor that allows you to *completely* ignore blaster
>fire in one scene, which can be penetrated by spear-armed teddy bears
>in another scene.

Armor just isn't very effective against bludgeoning attacks, or
thrusts against the joints. The Ewoks were knocking the stormtroopers
down with rocks, then either battering them with more rocks or poking
at the armor joints with spears until they quit moving. Plus, there
were a lot of Ewoks for each stormtrooper being attacked.

As far as the opening scenes in Star Wars go, the crew of the "courier
ship" may have been bad shots and couldn't hit those vulnerable areas
on their armor that the heroes always seemed to find.

John Lansford
http://users.vnet.net/lansford/a10/intro.htm

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From: Michael Sprague <msprague@eznet.net>
Subject: RE: GMing tips :Accessori
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 17:37:01 -0500
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> 30 minutes to run less than 30 seconds worth of combat. This sort of
thing
> would raise alarm bells in my head that Something Was Wrong - either with
> my method of running combat or with the combat system itself.
>
> What sort of group are you running? If you've got a half-dozen characters
on
> each side with each character having SPEEDs of 5-8 then I can see thing
> bogging down. My own view of how fast combat ought to run might be
slightly
> skewed since the game I'm currently in has only 2 players, and the GM's
> philosophy calls for cutting back on the speed (300 point characters,
mine has
> SPD 4 and Vox's has SPD 3.)

I think you answered your own question. The time it takes to run combat is
a non-linear function, based on the number of players you have. :-) For
that matter, if we are talking Champions, a SPD of 3 and 4 are pretty low.

Consider how long you combat would take if you had 6 players, each with a 6
speed (the characters in my game run from SPD 5 to 7, with the average
probably being 5.8 or so). Combat takes a while to do combat, but we enjoy
it. My players prefer role-playing to combat, but I discovered that having
gaming sessions with no combat is not as fun. I always try and have one
minor (usually pretty short) combat per gaming session, with a major one at
the end of the adventure. It usually takes two to four gaming sessions to
reach the end of an adventure.

~ Mike

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 14:43:17 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Balance (was Re: Powers as Disadvantages)
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Remnant wrote:
>
> Robert A. West wrote:
>
> >Is it really that inobvious in most cases why unbalanced powers are bad?
>
> No.
>
> It is, however, inobvious as to why they are unbalanced? 'Balance' is
> obviously a very ambigous term or there wouldn't be so many arguments over
> it. If a rules modification was obviously 'unbalanced' then why would it be
> necessary to say that it is 'unbalanced.'

I do not recall many occasions on which someone argued that a power A was
unbalancing without stating some reason: often an arithmetic comparison
of point-efficiency with other, more straightforward, ways of achieving
the same thing. Unless one is saying, "Hey! I think this is unbalanced,
but if you are going to do this, consider the following...," I see no
purpose in not explaining.

Perhaps I have missed the postings that annoyed you, or perhaps I infered
more from them, so didn't miss the omissions.



--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 15:41:11 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Autofire and Trigger
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Dave Mattingly wrote:
>
> I wrote:
> >Absorbo the Great has a 3d6 autofire absorb...
> >Absorbo is shot and hit for 5, 5, 6, 7, 9, and 9 body.
> >Absorbo absorbs 5, 5, 6, 9, and 9 points (only five shots
> >can be absorbed per Absorbo's phase
>
> qts asks:
> >Why does Absorbo automatically get to absorb all five attacks?
>
> Hmm... That's a good point. I never thought about it before.
>
> On an autofire attack, the number of hits that succeed depend on how
> well the attack roll was made. But since absorb has no attack roll (it
> automatically works every time you're hit), I guess it should work for
> every hit (up to five, anyway).
>
> Anyone have other suggestions on how to handle it?
>
> Dave Mattingly
> http://www.geocities.com/soho/5953

Yes, just say "no!" Autofire makes no sense to me unless the power
either requires a to-hit roll, or a skill or activation roll of some
sort.


--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest


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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
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>>>>> "JaRP" == John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net> writes:

JaRP> I'm already on record as no longer agreeing with this assessment.
JaRP> Lightsabers have a physical presence,

They are focused beams of coherent light; they have no "physical" presence
in the fashion of which you speak.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
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>>>>> "JC" == Joe Claffey <jrc@mail1.nai.net> writes:

>> Remember, "No Range" is a "standard" limitation for powers such as Energy
>> Blast and RKA, while "cannot add strength" is not a "standard" limitation.

JC> Neither one is a standard Limitation, actually. "Power has no range" is
JC> one of the examples listed under LImited Power.

Please note carefully that I use the word "standard" in quotes above.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
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>>>>> "RAW" == Robert A West <robtwest@erols.com> writes:

RAW> Why not simply do this using BBB powers and advantages?

RAW> 57 3D6 RKA Time Delay(+1/4) 4x8 charges(-0)
RAW> 10 1D6 Drain Any Phys PD(+1/4) fade/min(+1/4) 4x8c(-0) Linked(-1/2)
RAW> --
RAW> 67 Same Total Cost as 3D6 RKA AP(+1/2) 4x8charges(-0)

This is not simple. This is also a crock.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
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>>>>> "RAW" == Robert A West <robtwest@erols.com> writes:

RAW> 57 3D6 RKA Time Delay(+1/4) 4x8 charges(-0)
RAW> 33 2D6 Drain Any Phys PD(+1/4) fade/min(+1/4) NND(+1)
RAW> 4x8c(-0) Linked(-1/2) Defense is hardening.

I still say it is a crock, even when the points add up. "I swing my sword,
the defenses go away, then the damage hits." I don't think so.

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Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 19:57:46 -0600
From: Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org>
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
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>> 57 3D6 RKA Time Delay(+1/4) 4x8 charges(-0)
>> 33 2D6 Drain Any Phys PD(+1/4) fade/min(+1/4) NND(+1)
>> 4x8c(-0) Linked(-1/2) Defense is hardening.
>
>I still say it is a crock, even when the points add up. "I swing my sword,
>the defenses go away, then the damage hits." I don't think so.

Oh, please. How about:

55 3d6+2 (or 3.5d6) RKA, 4x8 charges

instead? 2d6 is only going to drain 7 active points of rPD, halved for
it being a defense, which is about 2 pts. Save two points, and you get
more STUN through 2/3 of the time!

The real problem is, Robert didn't actually read the "GM's Discretion"
article about alternative AP, so his power isn't remotely similar to
the suggested advantage.

Donald

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 18:05:15 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
Subject: Re: Champions Editions
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Bill Svitavsky wrote:

> I'm a little confused about the first and second editions of Champions. I

First Edition: Color cover, two guys fighting copyright 1981
Revised (Second) Edition: same cover in Black and white, Copyright 1982
Third Edition: Cover with 3 people in the air (one swinging). 1st printing was
staple bound and in box, 11,1984
second and further printings where perfect bound, 3,1985
Fourth Edition: 1989

I have copies of all four editions.
Personally I started with second edition in 1985, but bought third one week
after my first game.


--
Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing


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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
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>>>>> "RA" == Ron Abitz <ronald@centraltx.net> writes:

>> They are focused beams of coherent light; they have no "physical"
>> presence in the fashion of which you speak.

RA> If that was realy the case they would not "bounce" off of other light
RA> saber or off solid objects.

The perceived "bounce" is a fencer's reflex, especially with the Kenjutsu
styles, of which the Jedi's style resembles. Whether the strike hits or
misses the intended target, the blade is snapped back up into a guard
position. This is real fencing technique, and it is the only way I can
reconcile the perceived "bounce" from flimsy strips of metal with the ease
of slicing through much more substantial materials. It also fits the
cinematics when Luke manages to tag Vader to little effect: his saber
appears to "bounce" off of Vader's armor. It did not bounce; Luke's timing
was off, and he snapped back too quickly.

As for a light saber being "physical" to energy, that is pure space opera.
Without that ability, the light saber would be as useful in the Star Wars
universe as the Samurai's katana was in feudal Japan once the Portugese
started arming footmen with firearms -- that is to say, utterly useless.

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Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 19:20:45 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Autofire and Trigger
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

Dave Mattingly wrote:
>
>
> Bob G wrote:
> >Autofire Absorption becomes nothing more than a cheap way to buy
> >five times the number of dice (or, at least, a quick 5X maximum
> >amount absorbed) for a quick +1/2 Advantage.
>
> +1 Advantage, actually, since it's not an EB or KA.

Err...try +1 1/2. The rules state, "There is an additional +1 Advantage
if the Power is not applied against normal defenses or if the power does
not require a normal To-hit Roll."

Personally, I would rather see one take something equivalent to Reduced
Penetration (which is, IMHO, worth -1/2 not -1/4), taken multiple times
if need be, on a larger attack.


--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 19:59:59 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> >>>>> "RAW" == Robert A West <robtwest@erols.com> writes:
>
> RAW> Why not simply do this using BBB powers and advantages?
>
> RAW> 57 3D6 RKA Time Delay(+1/4) 4x8 charges(-0)
> RAW> 10 1D6 Drain Any Phys PD(+1/4) fade/min(+1/4) 4x8c(-0) Linked(-1/2)
> RAW> --
> RAW> 67 Same Total Cost as 3D6 RKA AP(+1/2) 4x8charges(-0)
>
> This is not simple. This is also a crock.

As has been pointed out to me in several private emails, this is
mispointed, but I deny that it is a crock. The correct pointing for a
power that would have approximately the same effect as the
Armor-Destroying AP previously described would be:

57 3D6 RKA Time Delay(+1/4) 4x8 charges(-0)
33 2D6 Drain Any Phys PD(+1/4) fade/min(+1/4) NND(+1)
4x8c(-0) Linked(-1/2) Defense is hardening.

NND is necessary to avoid Power Defense, which is the normal defense to
Drain. The attack cannot affect Hardened defenses, so that constitutes
the defense to the Drain (any non-hardened defenses would still be
affected, nevertheless). I forgot to make it ranged while I was at it
... all-in-all a pretty poor showing. I assume that the points destroyed
by the alternate version of AP come back at the end of the battle or when
there is a chance for the armor to be repaired, so I chose one minute as
approximating the duration of most battles.

Nevertheless, I don't see why this you think is a crock, unless you just
meant that I had carelessly mispointed. In fact, speaking of crocks, the
equivalent New-AP power would be only 67 points, which makes me
suspicious that it is too cheap.

And I don't see what is particularly non-simple about linked powers.

>
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<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest

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Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 23:36:01 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
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>JaRP> I'm already on record as no longer agreeing with this assessment.
>JaRP> Lightsabers have a physical presence,
>
>They are focused beams of coherent light; they have no "physical" presence
>in the fashion of which you speak.

AFAIK, exactly what the scientific mumbo-jumbo behind lightsabers was never
explained. Any really big Star Wars fan want to tell us? If anything, they
must have some sort of containment field running (otherwise it wouldn't be
'coherent light', whatever the hell THAT means, exactly), which could have a
physical presence as well. Given the way opponants were thrown around when
Luke was attacking Jabba's yacht, I'd say the lightsaber has some kinetic
force involved. They are not 'no knockback' weapons, anymore than a sword is.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

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Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 23:36:04 -0500 (EST)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
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>>> They are focused beams of coherent light; they have no "physical"
>>> presence in the fashion of which you speak.
>
>RA> If that was realy the case they would not "bounce" off of other light
>RA> saber or off solid objects.
>
>The perceived "bounce" is a fencer's reflex, especially with the Kenjutsu
>styles, of which the Jedi's style resembles.

Not as far as I can tell. Looked closer to european style bastard sword
fencing to me. Certainly didn't resemble 'cinematic' samurai fighting
(passing charges, very little parrying).

> Whether the strike hits or
>misses the intended target, the blade is snapped back up into a guard
>position. This is real fencing technique, and it is the only way I can
>reconcile the perceived "bounce" from flimsy strips of metal with the ease
>of slicing through much more substantial materials. It also fits the
>cinematics when Luke manages to tag Vader to little effect: his saber
>appears to "bounce" off of Vader's armor. It did not bounce; Luke's timing
>was off, and he snapped back too quickly.

Oh, give it up, Rat! That's just plain _weak_. "They don't bounce,
that's....a fencer's reflex! Yeah! That's the ticket! Fencer's reflex!"

Lightsabers bounce off sufficiently tough surfaces. It's the simplest
explanation - and seeing how you're so fond of Occam's Razor...



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

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Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 23:30:16 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: mlnunn@blue.net
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
Subject: Re: Champions Editions
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>First Edition: Color cover, two guys fighting copyright 1981
>Revised (Second) Edition: same cover in Black and white, Copyright 1982
>Third Edition: Cover with 3 people in the air (one swinging). 1st printing was
>staple bound and in box, 11,1984
> second and further printings where perfect bound, 3,1985
>Fourth Edition: 1989

OK where does the edition with the Guardians/Champions flying across the
cover come in?

I gotta dig that one out!

Michael

Rising Force Publications
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist our seldom updated web site...
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm

"You have never lived until you have almost died.
And for those who fight for it,
life has a flavor the protected never know"
- anonymous

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 22:16:39 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> >>>>> "RAW" == Robert A West <robtwest@erols.com> writes:
>
> RAW> 57 3D6 RKA Time Delay(+1/4) 4x8 charges(-0)
> RAW> 33 2D6 Drain Any Phys PD(+1/4) fade/min(+1/4) NND(+1)
> RAW> 4x8c(-0) Linked(-1/2) Defense is hardening.
>
> I still say it is a crock, even when the points add up. "I swing my sword,
> the defenses go away, then the damage hits." I don't think so.
>

First time I have ever seen a Sword FX defined as an RKA with charges.
It can't be a light sabre, I didn't take 0-range! ;-)

Seriously, I originally suggested this power combo to describe a type of
discarding-sabot AP charge that comprises an armor-destroying penetrator
and an antipersonnel charge that exploits the hole that the penetrator
creates. The hole permanently weakens the armor, at least until
repaired.

It sounded to me that this was what the article in question was trying to
model. Apparently, given the comments that I have received, this is not
the intention of the AP modification suggested.

Nevertheless, this type of weapon exists, and should be able to be
modeled under the Hero system. I am curious how you would do so.

--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest

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Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 23:10:16 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Champions Editions
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> >First Edition: Color cover, two guys fighting copyright 1981
> >Revised (Second) Edition: same cover in Black and white, Copyright 1982
> >Third Edition: Cover with 3 people in the air (one swinging). 1st printing was
> >staple bound and in box, 11,1984
> > second and further printings where perfect bound, 3,1985
> >Fourth Edition: 1989
>
> OK where does the edition with the Guardians/Champions flying across the
> cover come in?

It's the back cover of first edition.
First edition had a color wrap around cover, the back side whows the rest
of the team coming in to help the hero on the front side.


--
Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing


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From: ErolB1 <ErolB1@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 05:47:27 EST
Subject: Re: GMing tips :Accessori
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In a message dated 98-03-08 21:34:10 EST, theala@shore.intercom.net wrote:

> > This one I just don't get: 2 Turns is 24 seconds - less than half a
> > minute. IMO a fight this short is appropriate if one side is badly
> > outclassed by the other (e.g. one or two supers taking out a gang of
> > normal thugs) but not if the two sides are closer to equal.
>
> Not at all. Anyone who's boxed, or been in the martial arts, or
> been in a combat situation will tell you 3 seconds is one HELL of a
> long time. A lot can happen in just a few seconds, and often things
> get so jammed together that the participants have trouble remembering
> all the details. Having worked in corrections, and seen inmate
> disturbances first hand, I know--these altercations take less than 30
> seconds usually, but a lot happens. Also, I've competed in martial
> arts tournaments with rounds lasting 3 minutes--it seems like
> forever.

Yes, but we're talking about *superheroes* here. And even in the real world: 3
minute rounds = 15 turns per round. As for the inmate disturbances, did these
come to a "natural" conclusion or were they broken up?

What I'm trying to say is that it seems stilted to me for the baddies to
arbitrarily decide to break off after 2 turns.

> > Then you go on to say:
> >
> > > My combats used to take HOURS. Now I generally have combat resolved
> > > in 30 minutes or so, except for grand finaele combats (which I run
> > > rarely).
> >
> > 30 minutes to run less than 30 seconds worth of combat. This sort of
> > thing would raise alarm bells in my head that Something Was Wrong -
> > either with my method of running combat or with the combat system
> > itself.
>
> If you run strictly by the rules with a medium sized group (say six
> players), it CAN take that long, esp if you use a hex map that keeps
> careful track of things like range modifiers, position etc. The
> length of combat has been one of the major complaints about the
> system for years, so I don't understand your surprise.

My surprise is that it still takes this long *after* you've taken steps to
make combat move more quickly. What you have now sounds like the standard
'before' complaint: "Champions combat takes too long to resolve. It takes me
30 minutes to resolve a mere two turns of combat."

Erol K. Bayburt
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow

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Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 98 06:45:05 -0500
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
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John and Ron Prins jprins@interhop.net 3/8/98 11:36 PM

>>JaRP> I'm already on record as no longer agreeing with this assessment.
>>JaRP> Lightsabers have a physical presence,
>>
>>They are focused beams of coherent light; they have no "physical" presence
>>in the fashion of which you speak.
>
>AFAIK, exactly what the scientific mumbo-jumbo behind lightsabers was never
>explained. Any really big Star Wars fan want to tell us? If anything, they
>must have some sort of containment field running (otherwise it wouldn't be
>'coherent light', whatever the hell THAT means, exactly), which could have a
>physical presence as well. Given the way opponants were thrown around when
>Luke was attacking Jabba's yacht, I'd say the lightsaber has some kinetic
>force involved. They are not 'no knockback' weapons, anymore than a sword is.

Per the SWRPG Rules, which were built using Lucus' working notes, a
Lightsaber
is a "beam of coherent light" that arcs back over itself creating both
the
blade and the resonant hum. It doesn't model well in Champions because
it's
an absolute, it cuts through anything except another saber blade. Force
fields
offer some limited defence, however if enough strength, yes strength, is
behind the strike, it can penetrate most human scale personal shields.
Heavier
shielding, like that used of speeders and larger weapon, would stop it
under
normal conditions (of course an enraged wookie would not be a normal
condition).

The blade does have a "physical presence" that the Jedi can sence via the
Force.
However it has no mass making it extremely difficult to wield
effectively. A
non-Jedi risks injuring himself when using the Lightsaber, in Champions
terms
I'd say missing the attack roll sufficiently that the defender's def
isn't
necessary. It sould apply v rED, not rPD, at least per Star Wars physics.

Lightsabers do have to be recharged, however a single energy cell
provides
power for months of normal use. In general it is not limiting. The
arched
energy returns to the handle with virtually no loss of charge "refueling"
the cell. They are universal focii, however they can be built with the
activation stud inside the handle, so that only a Jedi can activate them.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

PAX,
John

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Subject: Re: Adjusting hit locations was:Re: Pre Attacks
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 98 06:46:09 -0500
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
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Rick Holding rholding@ActOnline.com.au 3/9/98 8:23 PM

> >Ruegen attacks, and Inigo blocks, but instead of a clean block, or a
> >clean chest shot for Ruegen it gets his arm (first two thrusts after the
> >thrown dagger). I could see this as color for the stun mult/location
> >roll but....
>
> Actually that's not how I saw it. I always saw that as just _missing_ the
> arm but hitting the sleeve of Inigo's shirt. a perfect block.

His arms were bleeding in the movie, he definantly took the hit.

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X-Authentication-Warning: bermuda.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 08:26:50 -0600 (CST)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
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On Sun, 8 Mar 1998, John and Ron Prins wrote:

> >The perceived "bounce" is a fencer's reflex, especially with the Kenjutsu
> >styles, of which the Jedi's style resembles.
>
> Not as far as I can tell. Looked closer to european style bastard sword
> fencing to me. Certainly didn't resemble 'cinematic' samurai fighting
> (passing charges, very little parrying).

'Cinematic' samurai fighting (and I'm not at all sure which movies you're
watching) bears about as much resemblance to real kenjutsu as 'cinematic'
fencing bears to real fencing - which is to say, not a hell of a lot.

As a friend of mine commented when he saw the rerelease - "Hey, I never
noticed it before...but that's bad kendo!"

J

"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"

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Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 09:48:11 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: GMing tips :Accessori
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by ErolB1
>My surprise is that it still takes this long *after* you've taken steps to
make combat move more quickly. What you have now sounds like the standard
'before' complaint: "Champions combat takes too long to resolve. It takes
me
30 minutes to resolve a mere two turns of combat."<

This is one of the main reasons they created Champions: New Millennium,
using the Fuzion rule system which resolves combat much faster. My group
enjoys the long combat sessions, though, so I have no complaints with the
Hero system.

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Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 09:48:12 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: RE: GMing tips :Accessori
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by "Theala Sildorian"
>I used to run adventures based around classic comic book style
combats. It was boring. I switched to a soap opera approch and a
storytelling GMing style. I recently went 8 sessions and no one ever
touched the dice--and we had the time of our lives.<

This is completely alien to me...I'm the type who will go into a comic
shop, flip through a superhero title, and will put it back on the shelf if
it doesn't have a decent amount of fighting in it. I sense that I'm in the
minority here, but I want fighting and lots of it in my Champions game,
whether I'm the GM or the player (I'm usually the GM). It just seems like
fighting is the very essence of this superhero thing, and if you take that
out, you might as well be role-playing normals....

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:27:58 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: GMing tips :Accessori
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by ErolB1
>What sort of group are you running? If you've got a half-dozen characters
on
each side with each character having SPEEDs of 5-8 then I can see thing
bogging down. My own view of how fast combat ought to run might be slightly
skewed since the game I'm currently in has only 2 players, and the GM's
philosophy calls for cutting back on the speed (300 point characters, mine
has
SPD 4 and Vox's has SPD 3.)<

Your group sounds very unusual...I don't think I've ever seen a superhero
PC with a SPD below 4, and almost all of them are 5, 6, or 7, with a few
8's here and there. Your GM must be modifying the SPD for almost every
published villain, because they have an average of 5-6 as well.

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Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:28:15 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Are Mentalists boring?
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Message text written by "Theala Sildorian"
>I think Dave pulled the rule from 3rd ed--and actually, I think
that's the way my GM has been running it (will have to ask him to be
sure), because we use a lot of hold over rules from prevous
editions--sometimes I get them confused with 4th ed. I just looked
it up, and even tho I meant Ego Stunned in my original message, but
getting it wrong, I got it right <sigh><

I've always wondered why people say "CON Stunned", because I didn't know of
any other type of stunning. To mesh this with another thread, I started
Champs with 2nd edition (the blue boxed set), but I was out of the loop
during 3rd Edition (getting back into it with 4th), so maybe that's why
I've never heard of Ego Stunning.

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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 09:32:56 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Champions Editions
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Now that enough people have described the various editions, (thanks guys)
I started playing with first edition, coming from AD&D. Not having a
good idea of what a reasonable DEX was in Champions, I gave my first
character an 18. Then, since I had only given the character a 35
STR, I started doing the kick maneuver to do more damage. Which of course
had its own drawbacks.


Curt

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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 09:39:30 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Combat Speed (Was GMing tips :Accessor)
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Theala Sildorian wrote:

>
> Average SPD in my supers game is 5-6, with a couple of characters
> with speeds 8, and one speedster with SPD 11. Hell, the first
> Fantasy Hero game I played in (my intro to the system) with
> characters ave SPD 3 bogged down because of the sheer number of
> goblins the players had to face--they were easy to kill, but there
>

I suspect that combats last longer with slower speed characters, since
the characters recover more often proportionately. Maybe it takes less
real time to run one, but more game time ? Of course, supers can take a
lot more damage...

Anyhow, I think the detailed combat system is an advantage in Champions,
since you presumably want to capture all the color of a super-powered battle;
but a disadvantage in other genres such as Fantasy Hero, where you don't
want that much detail.


> That's why Fuzion was developed, in part. To fix length of
> combat--and they had to create a whole new game system to do it.
> Fuzion players I know tell me combat is very quick in that system.
>

I'm still wondering how Fuzion speeds up combat that much. Our Mekton
game was converted over to Fuzion, but we really haven't had enough combats
for me to tell.

Curt

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Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 08:57:38 -0700
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
Subject: Re: Champions Editions
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Bill Svitavsky wrote:

>
> And just out of curiousity, how many people on this list got into the Hero
> System before the fourth edition? Did anybody start with a game other than
> Champions?

Here's my story...

I started HERO with Champs. I started playing in 1985 just before third
edition came out. The third edition was the first Champs book I bought.
I remember our college group hoping, when we saw the book, that it
included the stuff from Champs 2 and 3 in it... oh well we had to wait
for 4th ed for that.

I started the whole RPG thing with the original blue/red D&D stuff. TSR
was all I played for years until I discovered Champions in 1985 in my
first year in college.

My wife started in 1982 with first ed. She very soon moved to second
then third. Her campaign ended a little after 4th came out (coincidence)
and that is when I started my currently running Champs campaign.

Here is an an autobiographical Champs related anecdote I have yet to
hear topped 8)

I had discovered Champs in college out of state, and when I transfered
back to a college near home after a year, no one around here played
Champions. Everyone were D&D nuts (although I did find one rolemaster
campaign ugg).I had completely fallen for champs; no dice rolling in
character creation, I loved the combat system- I still don't play any
other systems. I was going into Champs withdrawel (although I now know
it was HERO withdrawel). I couldn't even start a game as a GM- no one
wanted to play.

I spent a good deal of time hanging at the local game/comic/book store
(summer, no school I was 19 what else should I do?). One bright summer
day I found someone looking through a champs book, enemies international
I think, and asked if he was in a Champions campaign, and he said yes.
He gave me the name of the GM and her number.

I called her that night, and got her ground rules down and modified a
couple the characters I had played in my first campaign. During our
first session she OKed them and off we went.

As it turned out the GM and I had a good deal more in common than just
gaming.
We got married.

So if Champions had never been written I, in all likelyhood, would not
have met the woman I married (over 9 years now). Even if we gave up
roleplaying (fat chance) we would keep the champs rules around as a
momento.


Yes I know, more information than anyone wanted about me but hey.....

-Curtis
--
Not only does the English Language borrow words from other languages,
it sometimes chases them down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and
goes through their pockets. -- Eddy Peters

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Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 10:10:29 -0600
From: John Stefanski <jstefanski@internetMCI.com>
Subject: GMing tips :Length of Combat
Reply-to: "jstefanski@iname.com" <jstefanski@iname.com>
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Regarding the length of combat, our group tends to have one or two combats
every playing session. Those combats usually last about 3-4 hours and we
love 'em. Surprisingly, we find time to role-play and investigate the
scenario. Every game session lasts about 10-12 hours. I would be
interested in how others speed up combat, but to be honest we enjoy the
dice-rolling, role-playing and tactical planning (or lack of) involved with
every fight.

========================
JS Stefanski - jstefanski@iname.com

"aut vincere aut mori" - Conquer or Die
========================

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 08:46:53 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Autofire and Trigger
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At 12:15 PM 3/8/1998 -0800, Dave Mattingly wrote:
>I wrote:
>>>Absorbo the Great has a 3d6 autofire absorb...
>>>Absorbo is shot and hit for 5, 5, 6, 7, 9, and 9 body.
>>>Absorbo absorbs 5, 5, 6, 9, and 9 points (only five shots
>>>can be absorbed per Absorbo's phase
>
>Bob G wrote:
>>Autofire Absorption becomes nothing more than a cheap way to buy
>>five times the number of dice (or, at least, a quick 5X maximum
>>amount absorbed) for a quick +1/2 Advantage.
>
>+1 Advantage, actually, since it's not an EB or KA.
>
>But if Absorbo were hit by 5, 5, 6, 7, and 9, each of his 3d6 rolls
>would have to roll higher than the attacks. Autofire Absorb just means
>that the absorb is more effective against multiple small attacks than it
>is against a single large attack. A single attack that did 20 Body could
>easily be absorbed with a 6d6 Absorb (for the same cost), but not by a
>3d6 Autofire Absorb -- only the amount rolled on the Absorb dice.

I *think* I see what you're after.... But couldn't that just be a larger
amount on the Absorption, with a Limitation on how much can be absorbed per
attack? (Or are we running into Active Cost ceilings too easily here?)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 09:22:58 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: cybernetics
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At 05:20 PM 3/8/1998 -0500, Michael Sprague wrote:
>> You might want to try and find a copy of Cyber Hero, even though the
>> Net Running rules bugged me, the cybernetics stuff was pretty clean.
>
>I found that the text (where not screwed up) was pretty good, but the
>implementation was somewhat lacking (or outright wrong). We had a copy of
>the Beta test rules, written by Curtis Scott (who, alas, is no longer with
>us), and we went back and adapted a number of things he had done.

Ooo. By "no longer with us," do you mean "shuffled off this mortal
coil," or just "not with my group any more"?
I had heard before that the published work bore little resemblence to
the Final Draft that was actually submitted.

>While I don't regret buying Cyber Hero, it was a fairly disappointing book.

I have the same feeling.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: GMing tips :Accessori
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 09:57:19 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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>>What sort of group are you running? If you've got a half-dozen characters
> on each side with each character having SPEEDs of 5-8 then I can see thing
> bogging down. My own view of how fast combat ought to run might be slightly
> skewed since the game I'm currently in has only 2 players, and the GM's
> philosophy calls for cutting back on the speed (300 point characters, mine
> has SPD 4 and Vox's has SPD 3.)<
>
> Your group sounds very unusual...I don't think I've ever seen a superhero
> PC with a SPD below 4, and almost all of them are 5, 6, or 7, with a few
> 8's here and there. Your GM must be modifying the SPD for almost every
> published villain, because they have an average of 5-6 as well.
>

One thing to remember is how long it takes in real time is inversly
porportional to the average speed, but also directly connected to how
much variation there is in speed scores.

That is, a low speed game will take more real time as more frequent
phase 12 recoveries will keep the combatants up longer.

However, if we ignore recovery for a moment, it doesn't matter if we
all have speed 1 or speed 12. We still all move just as often in relation to
each other.
However, once there is even one character who's speed score is
diferent than the average, the game will begin to slow, as there is now
one person who's actions are not in synch with everyone elses. The more
people who deviate from the average, the more severe this issue gets.

Personally my games have always been speed 6 average, with maybe
1 character below, and 1 character above. My current game has about half
the group at 5 though, so combats take longer to play out than they ever did
for me before.

Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:01:33 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: GMing tips :Length of Combat
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by "jstefanski@iname.com"
>Regarding the length of combat, our group tends to have one or two combats

every playing session. Those combats usually last about 3-4 hours and we
love 'em. Surprisingly, we find time to role-play and investigate the
scenario. Every game session lasts about 10-12 hours. I would be
interested in how others speed up combat, but to be honest we enjoy the
dice-rolling, role-playing and tactical planning (or lack of) involved with

every fight.<

We also enjoy the tactical depth that you get with the Hero system...when
we go to a simpler combat system such as AD&D, it's just not that
fulfilling. We sorta view Champions combat as "miniatures lite", where you
command one mega-powerful unit instead of a whole army. This might be
horrifying to those who often type role-playing with ROLE in all-caps, but
to each his own.... I don't want to get off on a rant here, but sometimes
I feel a bit persecuted by extreme role-players, as if theirs is the only
legitimate way to play the game.

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X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 10:10:21 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: GMing tips :Length of Combat
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At 10:10 AM 3/9/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Regarding the length of combat, our group tends to have one or two combats
>every playing session. Those combats usually last about 3-4 hours and we
>love 'em. Surprisingly, we find time to role-play and investigate the
>scenario. Every game session lasts about 10-12 hours. I would be
>interested in how others speed up combat, but to be honest we enjoy the
>dice-rolling, role-playing and tactical planning (or lack of) involved with
>every fight.

I like it too, thats a big part of the game ya know :) I think there is a
sort of elitism "WE only fight once every FIVE sessions hmph!" about not
having combat, which Ive never understood. As if role playing in combat is
somehow inferior...

----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
Subject: Champs in Seattle
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:21:22 -0800
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Any gamers in or near Seattle? I'm going to be there for a week.

Dave Mattingly
mattingly@bigfoot.com

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:39:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Subject: Campaign Question
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To: champ-l@omg.org

I am developing a short campaign scenerio loosely based upon the anime "El
Hazard" (which in itself is very loosely inspired by ERB "John Carter of
Mars"). My question is, what powers were exhibted by our Earth heros inthe
series? I know that Fujisawa had super-strength (only if sober),
superleap and climbing/clinging, but how about everyone else? What sort
of powers did they have (and what sort of drawbacks)?

Has anyone else tired this sort of scenerio? Where a group of people
transported to another world and gain mystic or super powers? Any
suggestion on good ways to do this would be a big plus.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 09 Mar 98 18:47:26
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Champions Editions
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On Mon, 09 Mar 1998 08:57:38 -0700, Curtis Gibson wrote:

>Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>
>>
>> And just out of curiousity, how many people on this list got into the Hero
>> System before the fourth edition? Did anybody start with a game other than
>> Champions?

I for one: in 1987 I was looking for a FRP system better than AD&D. I
spent a very long time reading assorted rulebooks, then happened upon
Fantasy Hero, and stopped looking.

qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 09 Mar 98 18:48:07
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Champions Editions
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On Mon, 09 Mar 1998 08:57:38 -0700, Curtis Gibson wrote:

>As it turned out the GM and I had a good deal more in common than just
>gaming.
>We got married.

I think everyone's going to have a hard time beating that!
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Theala Sildorian\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 09 Mar 98 18:53:03
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: GMing tips :Accessori
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On Sun, 8 Mar 1998 21:40:52 +0000, Theala Sildorian wrote:

>Average SPD in my supers game is 5-6, with a couple of characters
>with speeds 8, and one speedster with SPD 11. Hell, the first
>Fantasy Hero game I played in (my intro to the system) with
>characters ave SPD 3 bogged down because of the sheer number of
>goblins the players had to face--they were easy to kill, but there
>were a lot of them, and it took a long time. One game I played in
>recently, the GM did what you do, average speed was 4, I played a
>martial artist with SPD 5 (fastest among the PCs), and it still
>bogged down--despite the GMs best efforts to keep moving things
>along.

With minor creatures, I just assign them hit values - "one good hit and
their out" sort of thing. But even when I don't, combats are no slower
than D&D. In fact, they're faster because no-one has to faff around
with remembering all the various spell effects.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: GMing tips :Length of Combat
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:19:47 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

> >Regarding the length of combat, our group tends to have one or two combats
> >every playing session. Those combats usually last about 3-4 hours and we
> >love 'em. Surprisingly, we find time to role-play and investigate the
> >scenario. Every game session lasts about 10-12 hours. I would be
> >interested in how others speed up combat, but to be honest we enjoy the
> >dice-rolling, role-playing and tactical planning (or lack of) involved with
> >every fight.
>
> I like it too, thats a big part of the game ya know :) I think there is a
> sort of elitism "WE only fight once every FIVE sessions hmph!" about not
> having combat, which Ive never understood. As if role playing in combat is
> somehow inferior...

It stems from the view that:

1) Combat excludes the ability to roleplay
2) If you don't want roleplay, you must be a munchkin, a powergamer, or
just a male.
3) Women don't like combat, they wanna roleplay. And women are PC, and
kewl to have around cause'n ya's can hit on em. :)
3) therefore if you like combat you must be a real goob, a dufus, or just
a dumb male. :)


Despite all this, it is quite possible to roleplay in combat, and
not all women hate combat nor all men live for nothing but it (after all,
there's beer and whistling at the lady's too. :) ).

Now my own game does get about 1 combat every couple sessions.
Part of this is the length of a seesion. We game about 3 hours a session.
The pattern tends to be two to solve the mystery, one for the
fight scene. We have the fights when they logically occur, or when the GM
comes to a point when the players have exhausted all the GM's ideas and the
GM is too tired to come up with more. :)
So we neither actively seek or avoid action scenes.

Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing

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Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:33:34 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Campaign Question
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

>I am developing a short campaign scenerio loosely based upon the anime "El
>Hazard" (which in itself is very loosely inspired by ERB "John Carter of
>Mars"). My question is, what powers were exhibted by our Earth heros inthe
>series? I know that Fujisawa had super-strength (only if sober),
>superleap and climbing/clinging, but how about everyone else? What sort
>of powers did they have (and what sort of drawbacks)?

Well, let's see. Jinnai could 'talk to Bugrom' (sort of a 4 pt. language
group that automagically translated for him - he spoke Japanese and they
understood, they spoke bug and he understood). Also, I _think_ he got a gift
for tactics and strategy, though that could have been 'natural' Jinnai. He
was a little too good in my books for having zero real generalship experience.

His Nanami could see through the shadow tribe's illusions. This was an
absolute power so probably best reflected by a simple Perk rather than a
power (perhaps N-Ray Senses (all), only to see through Shadowfolk illusions).

Makoto could activate/manipulate/control(?) ancient El Hazard artifacts.
>From his interaction with Ifurita, I'd say Telepathy and some No Range
Indirect Telekinesis (both only vs. ancient El Hazard artifacts). Indirect
b/c it worked through casings or Ifurita's staff (which was part of her, so
it didn't violate the No Range clause), which sort of let him manipulate the
Eye of God as well.

Though that screams of plot device (special, one time use of a power to save
the day!).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 11:58:20 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Campaign Question
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 01:39 PM 3/9/98 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>I am developing a short campaign scenerio loosely based upon the anime "El
>Hazard" (which in itself is very loosely inspired by ERB "John Carter of
>Mars"). My question is, what powers were exhibted by our Earth heros inthe
>series? I know that Fujisawa had super-strength (only if sober),
>superleap and climbing/clinging, but how about everyone else? What sort
>of powers did they have (and what sort of drawbacks)?
>
Makoto was capable of interfacing with ancient El-Hazard machinery, a bit
hard to write up in Champions. Long-dysfunctional machines would activate
at his touch, etc.

Jinnai could communicate with the Bugrom.

The girl (I forget her name) could see through any illusion or disguise,
whether magical or mundane.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 09 Mar 1998 15:29:34 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "JaRP" == John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net> writes:

JaRP> Not as far as I can tell. Looked closer to european style bastard
JaRP> sword fencing to me. Certainly didn't resemble 'cinematic' samurai
JaRP> fighting (passing charges, very little parrying).

Go watch the first saber fight, between Vader and Kenobi, and tell me that
again.

Hell! "Star Wars" is a remake of "The Hidden Fortress".

[...]

JaRP> Oh, give it up, Rat! That's just plain _weak_. "They don't bounce,
JaRP> that's....a fencer's reflex! Yeah! That's the ticket! Fencer's reflex!"

You've never studied fencing, have you.

JaRP> Lightsabers bounce off sufficiently tough surfaces. It's the simplest
JaRP> explanation - and seeing how you're so fond of Occam's Razor...

They appear to bounce off of thin strips of metal, but effortlessly cleave
through much larger, much more massive, much tougher objects. Either the
effects are contradictory or what you think you see is not what you are
seeing.

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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover
\ head.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 09 Mar 1998 15:33:14 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "JaRP" == John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net> writes:

>> They are focused beams of coherent light; they have no "physical" presence
>> in the fashion of which you speak.

JaRP> AFAIK, exactly what the scientific mumbo-jumbo behind lightsabers was
JaRP> never explained.

George Lucas said it is a saber made of light -- "light saber".

The Star Wars Sourcebook says it is a focused beam of energy -- a laser
(coherent light) -- folded back upon itself in a superconductive loop.
- From one to three focusing crystals are used. Those with a single crystal
have a fixed blade length; those with three crystals have variable blade
length.

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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
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X-Authentication-Warning: pentagon.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:44:44 -0600 (CST)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
Reply-To: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Campaign Question
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On Mon, 9 Mar 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote:

> Has anyone else tired this sort of scenerio? Where a group of people
> transported to another world and gain mystic or super powers? Any
> suggestion on good ways to do this would be a big plus.

Yep, and not just me - it's a common staple of fantasy fiction (both good
/and/ bad)...

In the archetypical scenario, the characters are taken there because they
have something special about them - they are the Chosen Ones or what have
you.

Generally, when I've done it, I tell the players to create 'normal
people', and choose the mystical powers etc myself. This preserves some
element of surprise for the players, and prevents them from making
characters that would be 'tailored' to this sort of scenario.
(Er.../sure/ he's on the school fencing team, and he bow-hunts deer with
his Dad every year...) On the other hand, if you've already told them
you'll be playing El Hazardous HERO, you don't have that option...

What kind of help did you need specifically? Ways to effect the transfer,
things to avoid or watch out for, etc?

J

"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 15:54:11 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
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To: champ-l@omg.org

On 9 Mar 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> Hell! "Star Wars" is a remake of "The Hidden Fortress".

Uh... only in the loosest sense. Sure, there are several obvious
parallels between the two (like the basic plot), but I wouldn't call it a
remake. 'Based on' is more like it.

> JaRP> Oh, give it up, Rat! That's just plain _weak_. "They don't bounce,
> JaRP> that's....a fencer's reflex! Yeah! That's the ticket! Fencer's reflex!"
>
> You've never studied fencing, have you.

I'm not certain what you mean about fencer's reflex either. Having
studied a bit of bastard & greatsword, I do know that the deisred blow is
stuck towards the center of the target, not the surface. You don't want
to rebound the blade, because that removes any impact from the blow.


***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 12:57:55 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: GMing tips :Length of Combat
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

At 11:19 AM 3/9/98 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:
> Now my own game does get about 1 combat every couple sessions.
>Part of this is the length of a seesion. We game about 3 hours a session.
> The pattern tends to be two to solve the mystery, one for the
>fight scene. We have the fights when they logically occur, or when the GM
>comes to a point when the players have exhausted all the GM's ideas and the
>GM is too tired to come up with more. :)
> So we neither actively seek or avoid action scenes.
>
I think a lot of the complaints/snobbery are not about combat, but about
combat that doesn't mean anything.

"OK, so you're at the Hall Of Liberty, and the Warning Alarm goes off. It
looks like the Sinister Seven are robbing the First National Bank."

"Didn't they do that last week?"

"No, that was the Feral Five robbing the First FEDERAL Bank."

"Oh, OK."


A pattern of session(s) for setup, session(s) for butt-kicking works well,
because by the time you get to the big standoff, you have a reason for
fighting and some sense of context.

OTOH, I like to start campaigns off with a good combat, because a)I usually
spend so much time working on background I'm stumped for a plot, and,
b)because 99.99% of all team comic books begin as follows:
a)Bunch of random villains show up
b)Bunch of previously solo heroes whup ass.
c)Everyone has so much fun, they agree to get together once a week and give
themselves a cool name.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 15:58:37 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Campaign Question
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

On Mon, 9 Mar 1998, Sakura wrote:

> On Mon, 9 Mar 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>
> > Has anyone else tired this sort of scenerio? Where a group of people
> > transported to another world and gain mystic or super powers? Any
> > suggestion on good ways to do this would be a big plus.
>
> Yep, and not just me - it's a common staple of fantasy fiction (both good
> /and/ bad)...

Do tell... El Hazard, Spellsinger, John Carter of Mars... etc.

> In the archetypical scenario, the characters are taken there because they
> have something special about them - they are the Chosen Ones or what have
> you.

Hmmm... I'm going to avoid that trap in this scenario. The PCs will be
what they make of themselves. No prophecies are the like.

> Generally, when I've done it, I tell the players to create 'normal
> people', and choose the mystical powers etc myself. This preserves some
> element of surprise for the players, and prevents them from making
> characters that would be 'tailored' to this sort of scenario.
> (Er.../sure/ he's on the school fencing team, and he bow-hunts deer with
> his Dad every year...) On the other hand, if you've already told them
> you'll be playing El Hazardous HERO, you don't have that option...

Nope, they know nothing of the sort. I've asked for a normal human from
1998 America. The PCs are on a Greyhound bus going from NY to LA. There
are no point limits other than common sense.

> What kind of help did you need specifically? Ways to effect the transfer,
> things to avoid or watch out for, etc?

Suggestions on how to impliment powers, things that owkred and things that
didn't. The transfer is easy, the bus will warp out of the Utah
wilderness and into a big forest. Fun begins now.

This will be a very cinematic game, so things like being able to use old
technology will be described, not nessecarily written up.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:00:08 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: GMing tips :Length of Combat
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
Content-Disposition: inline
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Message text written by Christopher Taylor
>I like it too, thats a big part of the game ya know :) I think there is a
sort of elitism "WE only fight once every FIVE sessions hmph!" about not
having combat, which Ive never understood. As if role playing in combat is
somehow inferior...<

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: cybernetics
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:16:45 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> I had heard before that the published work bore little resemblence to
> the Final Draft that was actually submitted.

The impression I got was that it was designed to let you use the
Hero System in RoleMaster's Cyberpunk world, rather than as a generic approach
to the genre.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:26:45 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
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>Go watch the first saber fight, between Vader and Kenobi, and tell me that
>again.
>
>Hell! "Star Wars" is a remake of "The Hidden Fortress".

I've heard that. I've also seen "The Hidden Fortress", and can say that the
similarities are vague at best. Star Wars is not a 'remake' of "The Hidden
Fortress" - at best Star Wars takes some inspiriation from THF -
specifically, the greedy, bickering foot soldiers were the inspiration for
R2D2 and C3PO. Other than that, I don't see a lot of similarities - unless
you count the fact that it's got a princess in it and some fighting...

"A Fistfull of Dollars" and "Last Man Standing" are remakes of "Yojimbo".
"Blind Fury" was a remake of the "Zato Ichi" series of films. But calling
"Star Wars" a remake of "The Hidden Fortress" is pure hyperbole.

Also, it seems a big stretch to me that the fight coreographer threw in some
'fencer's reflexes' into the fights. I'll bet if we could get ahold of his
notes it would say 'Vader's sword bounces off girder #12...' :-)


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 13:36:14 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: cybernetics
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 01:16 PM 3/9/98 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:
>> I had heard before that the published work bore little resemblence to
>> the Final Draft that was actually submitted.
>
> The impression I got was that it was designed to let you use the
>Hero System in RoleMaster's Cyberpunk world, rather than as a generic
approach
>to the genre.
>
And I heard it was a giant chicken! A chicken I tell you!

Sorry.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:38:18 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: cybernetics
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On Mon, 9 Mar 1998, Brian Wong wrote:

> > I had heard before that the published work bore little resemblence to
> > the Final Draft that was actually submitted.
>
> The impression I got was that it was designed to let you use the
> Hero System in RoleMaster's Cyberpunk world, rather than as a generic approach
> to the genre.

No, it is an attempt to present a cyberpunk universe. It is pretty bad
though, and does bear little resemblence to some first drafts I saw on the
net years ago.

I hope my Kazei Five book will help fix some of the problems found in
CyberHero.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 13:39:02 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Campaign Question
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At 02:33 PM 3/9/98 -0500, John and Ron Prins wrote:

>His Nanami could see through the shadow tribe's illusions. This was an
>absolute power so probably best reflected by a simple Perk rather than a
>power (perhaps N-Ray Senses (all), only to see through Shadowfolk illusions).
>
A minor correction -- she could see through any disguise, magical or
mundane. This was also confirmed by the Ani-Mayhem trading card game. :)

I'd write it up as an obscene bonus to Ego, Only to Resist Illusion (-1).

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 15:43:41 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Campaign Question
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Sakura <jeffj@io.com> writes:
>
> Generally, when I've done it, I tell the players to create 'normal
> people', and choose the mystical powers etc myself. This preserves some
> element of surprise for the players,

I guess balance between the player characters is not a problem this way.
But don't you get some players who aren't happy with their powers ?

I always thought this would be a neat idea for starting a game, but didn't
know how to make sure the players are happy with the powers.

Curt

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:44:42 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
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On Mon, 9 Mar 1998, John and Ron Prins wrote:

> >Go watch the first saber fight, between Vader and Kenobi, and tell me that
> >again.
> >
> >Hell! "Star Wars" is a remake of "The Hidden Fortress".
>
> I've heard that. I've also seen "The Hidden Fortress", and can say that the
> similarities are vague at best. Star Wars is not a 'remake' of "The Hidden
> Fortress" - at best Star Wars takes some inspiriation from THF -

The two farmers turned footsoilders are R2D2 and C3P0. Toshiro Mifune's
cahracter becomes (loosely) Obi Wan Kenobi. The princess in THF becomes
Princess Leia. The basic plot element (keep the princess safe) is the
same.. sort of.

> specifically, the greedy, bickering foot soldiers were the inspiration for
> R2D2 and C3PO. Other than that, I don't see a lot of similarities - unless
> you count the fact that it's got a princess in it and some fighting...

We watched THF and tried to figure out where the parallels were... there
aren't a whole lot, except on the very surface.

> "A Fistfull of Dollars" and "Last Man Standing" are remakes of "Yojimbo".
> "Blind Fury" was a remake of the "Zato Ichi" series of films. But calling
> "Star Wars" a remake of "The Hidden Fortress" is pure hyperbole.

And both FoD and LMS are pretty cool remakes of Yojimbo, which in itself,
is an attempt to simulate the Hollywood Western.

> Also, it seems a big stretch to me that the fight coreographer threw in some
> 'fencer's reflexes' into the fights. I'll bet if we could get ahold of his
> notes it would say 'Vader's sword bounces off girder #12...' :-)

Probably.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:48:07 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Campaign Question
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On Mon, 9 Mar 1998, Curt Hicks wrote:

> > Generally, when I've done it, I tell the players to create 'normal
> > people', and choose the mystical powers etc myself. This preserves some
> > element of surprise for the players,
>
> I guess balance between the player characters is not a problem this way.
> But don't you get some players who aren't happy with their powers ?
>
> I always thought this would be a neat idea for starting a game, but didn't
> know how to make sure the players are happy with the powers.

As part of the character request, I've asked the question: "if you could
have some sort of superpower(s), what would they be?"

I also will try and scale the mystic abilites to the personanlity of the
PC (and possibly, the profession).

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 14:12:57 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Champions Editions
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>>As it turned out the GM and I had a good deal more in common than just
>>gaming. We got married.
>
>I think everyone's going to have a hard time beating that!
>qts

Am I wrong to dream about that some day? (soon I hope LOL Im 32)

----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 14:16:18 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Gurls in our club
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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No no girls arent PC, they smell better and help keep the guys from really
being crude (sometimes)... oh and they usually bring a fresh perspective
into the game too :)

----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------

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X-Authentication-Warning: pentagon.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:19:59 -0600 (CST)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Campaign Question
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On Mon, 9 Mar 1998, Curt Hicks wrote:
> Sakura <jeffj@io.com> writes:
> >
> > Generally, when I've done it, I tell the players to create 'normal
> > people', and choose the mystical powers etc myself. This preserves some
> > element of surprise for the players,
>
> I guess balance between the player characters is not a problem this way.
> But don't you get some players who aren't happy with their powers ?
>
> I always thought this would be a neat idea for starting a game, but didn't
> know how to make sure the players are happy with the powers.

Well, I wouldn't do it with a group of strangers, or players I was
unfamiliar with, that's for sure...with my players, I had a pretty good
grasp of their personalities and what kind of stuff they would enjoy.

Another idea would be to prepare X 'packages' and have the players choose
between them in some way...not necessarily based on what's in the packages
- they could find thmselves in a room with mystical artifacts, and what
they choose reflects on what they get...for instance, the person who
chooses the sword will get leadership & martial ability, someone who
chooses a book will get knowledge, etc.

J

"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:27:05 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Campaign Question
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Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> wrote:
> Curt >
> > I always thought this would be a neat idea for starting a game, but didn't
> > know how to make sure the players are happy with the powers.
>
> As part of the character request, I've asked the question: "if you could
> have some sort of superpower(s), what would they be?"
>
> I also will try and scale the mystic abilites to the personanlity of the
> PC (and possibly, the profession).
>

How about an example or examples of this second part ? Curt

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Campaign Question
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:28:08 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

> > > Generally, when I've done it, I tell the players to create 'normal
> > > people', and choose the mystical powers etc myself. This preserves some
> > > element of surprise for the players,
> >
> > I guess balance between the player characters is not a problem this way.
> > But don't you get some players who aren't happy with their powers ?
> >
> > I always thought this would be a neat idea for starting a game, but didn't
> > know how to make sure the players are happy with the powers.
>
> As part of the character request, I've asked the question: "if you could
> have some sort of superpower(s), what would they be?"
>
One real sneaky way to do it is to tell them you'll be running two
connected scenerios.
One will require a normal person who can be successful in 'environment
X` (ussually the modern world). The other scenerio requires a diferent character
who can get along well in 'environment Y`. When they show up take a look at both
characters and see how they look seperately. Then do a cut and paste routine
and when the magic moment happens, hand them the pasted character. :)

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 14:29:18 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: cybernetics
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 01:16 PM 3/9/1998 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:
>> I had heard before that the published work bore little resemblence to
>> the Final Draft that was actually submitted.
>
> The impression I got was that it was designed to let you use the
>Hero System in RoleMaster's Cyberpunk world, rather than as a generic
approach
>to the genre.

And, of course, the latter is what it *should* have been.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 14:50:47 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Campaign Question
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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I had contemplated doing something similair, as well. The PCs would be
normal humans transported to a Strange And Alien World TM. My guidelines
were to be 'anyone who could reasonably be on a New York City subway at 8
PM on a weeknight.'

Never got to run the game, or even get people interested, but I'm eager to
hear how this one works out...

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net>
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 23:38:13 +0000
Subject: Re: GMing tips :Accessori
Priority: normal
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> In a message dated 98-03-08 21:34:10 EST, theala@shore.intercom.net
> wrote:
> Yes, but we're talking about *superheroes* here. And even in the
> real world: 3 minute rounds = 15 turns per round. As for the inmate
> disturbances, did these come to a "natural" conclusion or were they
> broken up?

The point is to give a real life example of how much shit can go down
in a short period of time. I don't care how powerful your
superheroes are--a lot can happen very quickly, and unless your
intellect is as fast as your fists, you may not be able to take it
all in at once. Seconds is all the time most real fights take. It's
all the time I'm willing to give my Champs combats, just for the sake
of fluid play.
>
> What I'm trying to say is that it seems stilted to me for the
> baddies to arbitrarily decide to break off after 2 turns.
>

Because my baddies are intelligent, that's why. Criminals aren't
interested (for the most part) in proving they can kick the cops ass:
they want to commit their crime and get a way clean. They fight
only as much as they have to, to get away with the goods. The only
villains I have who are interested in destroyed the heros (Genocide),
are trained in hit and run military tactics. They're normals who
know they can't take on a group of powerful supers and win in a
frontal assault. So they use their heads and plan ambushes, quick
strikes--get in and get out.


> My surprise is that it still takes this long *after* you've taken
> steps to make combat move more quickly. What you have now sounds
> like the standard 'before' complaint: "Champions combat takes too
> long to resolve. It takes me 30 minutes to resolve a mere two turns
> of combat."

A problem I've seen many Hero GMs have. It's a universal problem,
endemic to the system. The answer was to create a new system
(Fuzion), because no one could agree how to fix the old game. You
must be some sort of miricle worker if you don't have this
problem--but hey, more power to you.

Amy

----------------
Theala Sildorian
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

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Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net>
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 23:40:03 +0000
Subject: RE: GMing tips :Accessori
Priority: normal
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> This is completely alien to me...I'm the type who will go into a
> comic shop, flip through a superhero title, and will put it back on
> the shelf if it doesn't have a decent amount of fighting in it. I
> sense that I'm in the minority here, but I want fighting and lots of
> it in my Champions game, whether I'm the GM or the player (I'm
> usually the GM). It just seems like fighting is the very essence of
> this superhero thing, and if you take that out, you might as well be
> role-playing normals....
>

To each his own. I want more out of ROLEplaying than that, tho. I
want to understand my opponent--when I read a comic, I usually skim
over the combat and get to the part where the villains are explaining
their master plans to their underlings, or how the hero is trying to
explain to the girlfrined why he missed dinner AGAIN.

Amy

----------------
Theala Sildorian
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 19:44:25 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Remnant wrote:

> >> Can you imagine telling a PC:"The villain just shot an energy bolt at
> >> you. You fall over and are unconscious." without rolling to-hit, damage,
> >> deducting armor, etc?
>
> That type of ruling would be very well suited to a storytelling game. If
> used too frequently in a regular ol' RPG you will eventually become thought
> of as a high-handed GM.

"Storytelling game" and "RPG" are more-or-less synonyms. (More accurately,
RPGs are a subset of storytelling games.)

> And, while I've still got my soap box out of the closet, Hero or any other
> game like Hero shouldn't be "BALANCED" it should be heavily weighted to _FUN
> FUN FUN_ for everybody that is playing in it.

Also effectively synonymous.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 19:50:04 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:

> >Although IMODO, that fairly clearly isn't enough on its own to justify
> >EC's point break.
>
> It's been a while since I've seen an abbreviation that I couldn't
> decipher, but you just hit me with one, Trev ol' boy. What's IMODO (other
> than a Japanese figure skater)?

MODO = My Own Damn Opinion. Originated on rec.sport.pro-wrestling, where
we're far too ornery for that "Humble" nonsense.:)

> >> However, an EC saves, in and of itself no more than half the cost of a
> >> power. Thats a -1 limitation. So why does it give every adjuster out
> >> there a +2 advantage: effects all powers of a SPX for free? Just seems to
> >> be a little bit of an over reaction to the cost break...
> >
> >How so? If your reasoning is just "2 is greater than 1", that seems like
> >a rather severe non sequitur; I can't think of any reason to compare the
> >two numbers you're looking at.
>
> It looks to me like this:
> Assuming all slots are equal, the EC pool gives an effective -1
> Limitation to all Powers in the pool (at least, after the first) because it
> cuts their costs in half.
> "Affects All Powers of a Given Special Effect" is an explicitly listed
> +2 Advantage for Adjustment Powers.
> If an Elemental Control causes any Adjustment Powers to affect all of
> its slots at full strength, then an effective -1 Limitation to the Powers
> has, in effect, given any Adjustment Power turned against it a +2 Advantage.

I got all that, but you still haven't showed the connection between the
-1 Limitation and the +2 Advantage. Where is written that modifying a
Power so as to in some sense give somebody elses' Power a +X Advantage
should be a -X Limitation?

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 16:20:52 -0800
From: Clinton Chard <chud@pioneer.net>
Subject: Re: Champs in Seattle
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Nope, but I am in Corvallis, OR, and I'm still looking for a few good
gamers.Anyone out there?

Dave Mattingly wrote:

> Any gamers in or near Seattle? I'm going to be there for a week.
>
> Dave Mattingly
> mattingly@bigfoot.com



--
"Contrariwise," Continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be; and if
it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic."
-Lewis Carroll

Clinton Chard


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 17:23:41 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Adjusting hit locations was:Re: Pre Attacks
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Mad Hamish wrote:
> >Ruegen attacks, and Inigo blocks, but instead of a clean block, or a
> >clean chest shot for Ruegen it gets his arm (first two thrusts after the
> >thrown dagger). I could see this as color for the stun mult/location
> >roll but....
>
> Actually that's not how I saw it. I always saw that as just _missing_ the
> arm but hitting the sleeve of Inigo's shirt. a perfect block.

No, he did get hit in both arms. Then returned the favour later in the
fight.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 17:50:32 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> They are focused beams of coherent light; they have no "physical" presence
> in the fashion of which you speak.

Beep, wrong. Watch some of the combats between Vadar and Luke in the
sky city, I think it was. Some of their blows hit guard rails and after the
sparks cleared, the rails were bent downwards, sometimes quite a fair distance.
Thus certainly seems to indicate a physical presence. And how do you block an
attack with a beam of light, coherent or not? By your reasoning, from what I
can gather, the light sabers are insubstantial. Every combat between
lightsabers I remember seeing had them bouncing of each pretty well.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
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>>>>> "MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> writes:

MS> You don't want to rebound the blade, because that removes any impact
MS> from the blow.

But at the same time, you do not want the blade to become stuck in the
opponent's armor or body, which is a real problem with the ligher blades,
as they lack the mass to simply keep going through. So the "proper" thing
to do, at least in most of the Kenjutsu styles, is to strike with the
correct ammount of force, then snap the blade back *after* the opponent is
dead. There is a really nice description of this in, of all things, "Snow
Crash", specifically how Hiro practices this technique with a piece of
rebar.

And, as I previously stated, I prefer to ignore "bad" visual effects, such
as bent guard rails and the "core" of a light saber, in favor of what I am
supposed to be seeing.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Campaign Question
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>>>>> "MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> writes:

MS> I know that Fujisawa had super-strength (only if sober), superleap and
MS> climbing/clinging, but how about everyone else?

More accurately, incredible strength, leaping ability, and fighting ability
in inverse proportion to the quantity of alcohol and nicotine in his body.

MS> What sort of powers did they have

Nanami Jinnai has an "immunity" to the illusions of the Phantom Tribe. Her
brother (who's name escapes me at the moment) could communicate with the
Bugrom. And Makoto Mizuhara has an ability to manipulate and control the
ancient devices of El-Hazard (and he looks exactly like one of the
princesses of Roshtaria :).

MS> (and what sort of drawbacks)?

There seemed to be none in and of themselves.

Personally, I would have a hard time trying to run this as a Hero scenario.
The demonstrated abilities are perceived to have roughly equivalent value
within the course of the story. But they have radically different point
costs -- and I would be hard-pressed to actually write up Makoto's ability.
If I were to run something like that, using Hero, I would hand-wave the
point costs so long as whatever I or the players came up with for their
characters seemed reasonable within the context of the game.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Campaign Question
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>>>>> "L" == Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> writes:

L> A minor correction -- she could see through any disguise, magical or
L> mundane. This was also confirmed by the Ani-Mayhem trading card game. :)

Which can hardly be considered a canonical source for anything, including
itself. :)

L> I'd write it up as an obscene bonus to Ego, Only to Resist Illusion (-1).

That does nothing against Images. Anyway, see my other comments elsewhere.

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Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 22:21:47 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
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On 9 Mar 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> >>>>> "MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> writes:
>
> MS> You don't want to rebound the blade, because that removes any impact
> MS> from the blow.
>
> But at the same time, you do not want the blade to become stuck in the
> opponent's armor or body, which is a real problem with the ligher blades,
> as they lack the mass to simply keep going through. So the "proper" thing
> to do, at least in most of the Kenjutsu styles, is to strike with the
> correct ammount of force, then snap the blade back *after* the opponent is
> dead. There is a really nice description of this in, of all things, "Snow
> Crash", specifically how Hiro practices this technique with a piece of
> rebar.

THe impression I always got, and this is based strictly on chambara
movies, mind you, is that you keep the blade from getting stuck by
'follwoing through' with the blow. Ie. cutting and drwing to pull. the
sword clear as you slice through the target. I don't think I'd want to
'snap' the blade back, instead, I'd rather cut in a fluid motion and bring
the sword back into guard through use of footwork and the hips, as opposed
to the shoulders and arms. Naturally, this opinion is colored by the use
of wooden and rattan swords, but still seems valid.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: cybernetics
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>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:

>> The impression I got was that it was designed to let you use the Hero
>> System in RoleMaster's Cyberpunk world, rather than as a generic
>> approach to the genre.

BG> And, of course, the latter is what it *should* have been.

The flaw with that premise is calling "cyberpunk" a genre. It really is
not a genre; it is a style, a mood. Actually, it is two very different
styles.

The one is "real" cyberpunk. This is the stuff that Gibson and the rest
started with. My two favorite examples of this are two books by
W.T. Quick: "Dreams of Flesh and Sand" and "Dreams of Gods and Men". Real
cyberpunk is notable for the portrayal of "urban shellshock", the social
decline of humanity as caused by its inability to cope with technology
advancing so quickly.

The other is really action/adventure with a dark, slightly more advanced
than present setting. This is what all of the "cyberrpgs" out there call
"cyberpunk".

Me? I agree that Cyber Hero made a botch of an attempt at the other.
Nobody wants to do the one simply because it will not sell.

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Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 22:25:59 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Campaign Question
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On 9 Mar 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> Nanami Jinnai has an "immunity" to the illusions of the Phantom Tribe. Her
> brother (who's name escapes me at the moment) could communicate with the
> Bugrom. And Makoto Mizuhara has an ability to manipulate and control the
> ancient devices of El-Hazard (and he looks exactly like one of the
> princesses of Roshtaria :).

A very important plot point. I'll be skipping anything like that in the
scenario.

> MS> (and what sort of drawbacks)?
>
> There seemed to be none in and of themselves.

Hmm.... okay.

> Personally, I would have a hard time trying to run this as a Hero scenario.
> The demonstrated abilities are perceived to have roughly equivalent value
> within the course of the story. But they have radically different point
> costs -- and I would be hard-pressed to actually write up Makoto's ability.
> If I were to run something like that, using Hero, I would hand-wave the
> point costs so long as whatever I or the players came up with for their
> characters seemed reasonable within the context of the game.

I plan to only loosely defeine the powers, at least point wise. The crew
I want to spring this on are quite capable of ignoring hte character sheet
in favor of cool interaction with out require die rolling or combat
checks. I figure that they won't mind not knowing what they can do, or if
different people have vastly differing power levels. Besides, a lot of
the powers may end up suffering from limited concious control.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 22:29:57 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Campaign Question
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On Mon, 9 Mar 1998, Curt Hicks wrote:

> Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> wrote:

> > As part of the character request, I've asked the question: "if you could
> > have some sort of superpower(s), what would they be?"
> >
> > I also will try and scale the mystic abilites to the personanlity of the
> > PC (and possibly, the profession).
> >
>
> How about an example or examples of this second part ?

Well, if someone gave me a nurse, than the character might develop healing
powers. A martial artist might express power normally associated with
the traditions of his art. Things like that.

One thing that will not happen is PCs gaining big stat boosts. If someone
ends up with a 50 STR (for example) he (or she) will not be getting an 18
DEX and 4 SPD to go with it.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
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>>>>> "MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> writes:

MS> THe impression I always got, and this is based strictly on chambara
MS> movies, mind you, is that you keep the blade from getting stuck by
MS> 'follwoing through' with the blow. Ie. cutting and drwing to pull. the
MS> sword clear as you slice through the target. [...]

Not invalid at all, and in fact quite valid for the heavier blades that
have the mass to cut through, or against an unarmored opponent. The
lighter katana does not have that luxury, especially when the samurai armor
that one is attempting to cut through is made specifically to bind the
blade, preventing it from slicing. Different techniques from different
periods and for different reasons.

Admittedly, this is not supposed to be a problem for a light saber, as the
only thing that can provide any "resistance" to it is another focused
energy field. But as was pointed out elsewhere, "that looks like bad
Kendo", and Kendo snaps the blade back into guard position.

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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 23:43:48 -0600
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Trevor Barrie wrote:

>"Storytelling game" and "RPG" are more-or-less synonyms. (More accurately,
>RPGs are a subset of storytelling games.)

Unless you truly don't know what I mean when I use the term 'storytelling
game', your argument is spurious. Also, even more accurately, since any
game in which the players are assuming roles is an RPG and not just
'storytelling games'. It would seem that storytelling games are the subset
of RPGs. If indeed either is a subset of the other instead of similar but
different subsets of a larger category of games.

>> And, while I've still got my soap box out of the closet, Hero or any
other
>> game like Hero shouldn't be "BALANCED" it should be heavily weighted to
_FUN
>> FUN FUN_ for everybody that is playing in it.
>
>Also effectively synonymous.

In your experiences that may be true. When I was younger, I played in many
unbalanced games that were quite fun. If you are claiming that a balanced
game will be fun by definition then you are trying to take away my god given
right to be unhappy if I am playing in a balanced game. I played under a GM
once who was a total twit. He ran a pretty well-balanced game but it didn't
stop him from being a twit. I didn't have fun and had to quit.

You like balanced game.
You have fun in balanced game.
I no like balanced game.
I not have fun.
Balance = Fun only for you, not I.

You didn't seem to pay any attention to the point of the posting. 'Balance'
means different things to different people on this list and I daresay
throughout gaming. It is also not readily agreed upon on this list, what
will and won't constitute a balanced house rule.

Alan

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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Autofire and Trigger
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 05:28:20 -0800
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Me:
>Autofire Absorb just means that the absorb is more effective
>against multiple small attacks than it is against a single large
attack.

Bob G:
>I *think* I see what you're after.... But couldn't that just be a
larger
>amount on the Absorption, with a Limitation on how much can be absorbed
>per attack? (Or are we running into Active Cost ceilings too easily
here?)

Yes, it could just as easily be done with a Reduced Penetration type of
lim on a larger Absorb. I just like to mix and match unexpected advs and
lims onto powers to see what kind of odd results they give me.

Dave Mattingly

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 05:44:18 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Gurls in our club
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---Christopher Taylor wrote:
>
> No no girls arent PC, they smell better and help keep the guys from
really
> being crude (sometimes)... oh and they usually bring a fresh
perspective
> into the game too :)

And sometimes cookies.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 08:56:28 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Small campaign
Content-Disposition: inline
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I'm gearing up to start a new Champions campaign, but I only have 2
players. Since I'm not really fond of having players run multiple
characters, that means the hero group will only have 2 members. How would
you handle this? It seems a little awkward to give a group so small a
large amount of funding and a base. I had considered making them part of a
"2nd string" Champions team, having access to the Champions base and taking
care of local matters while the Champs are away saving the world (of
course, the PCs would have to rescue the Champs from time to time, etc).
However, I mentioned this to one of my players and he doesn't seem to like
the idea...I'm not sure why, but it might have to do with the fact that
they would be in the Champions' shadows. For a campaign world, I was
planning on using Bay City (from Champions: New Millennium) but with the
4th Edition rules. I'm waiting for San Angelo: City of Heroes to come out,
though, in case I like it better. Any ideas?

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 06:20:54 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Small campaign
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---David Stallard wrote:
>
> I'm gearing up to start a new Champions campaign, but I only have 2
> players. Since I'm not really fond of having players run multiple
> characters, that means the hero group will only have 2 members. How
would
> you handle this? It seems a little awkward to give a group so small a
> large amount of funding and a base. I had considered making them
part of a
> "2nd string" Champions team, having access to the Champions base and
taking
> care of local matters while the Champs are away saving the world (of
> course, the PCs would have to rescue the Champs from time to time,
etc).
> However, I mentioned this to one of my players and he doesn't seem
to like
> the idea...I'm not sure why, but it might have to do with the fact
that
> they would be in the Champions' shadows. For a campaign world, I was

Maybe it's just a marketting issue. You could try reversing the idea.
Make these two PCs more of a "special ops" team - handling the
assignments that the Champs can't, instead of the assignments the
Champs don't want. Make them the team that goes "away saving the
world".

Just a thought.


> planning on using Bay City (from Champions: New Millennium) but with
the
> 4th Edition rules. I'm waiting for San Angelo: City of Heroes to
come out,
> though, in case I like it better. Any ideas?
>
>
>

_________________________________________________________
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From: ErolB1 <ErolB1@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 09:28:53 EST
Subject: Re: GMing tips :Accessori
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In a message dated 98-03-09 23:40:10 EST, theala@shore.intercom.net writes:

> > Yes, but we're talking about *superheroes* here. And even in the
> > real world: 3 minute rounds = 15 turns per round. As for the inmate
> > disturbances, did these come to a "natural" conclusion or were they
> > broken up?
>
> The point is to give a real life example of how much shit can go down
> in a short period of time.

I'm well aware of "how much shit can go down in a short period of time." I
once lost an extended... discussion ... on this point when I criticized GURPS
1-second combat rounds as being too fast. But when I play superheroes, I don't
want this sort of realistic combat - I want superheroic combat.

And I notice that you didn't answer my question: Did those fights you
witnessed end in less than 30 seconds because people jumped in to break the
fight up, or did they end with one side down and beaten?

> I don't care how powerful your
> superheroes are--a lot can happen very quickly, and unless your
> intellect is as fast as your fists, you may not be able to take it
> all in at once.

IMHO one of the basic attributes of all superheroes and epic heroes is the
ability to think fast in combat, to take it in all at once, and to survive
more than 30 seconds of full-out combat.

> Seconds is all the time most real fights take.

Which IMHO is irrelivant to how long fights between superheroes should take.
Fights between superheroes should feel *different* than fights between
normals. Otherwise why bother playing superheroes at all?

[It occurs to me that there may be a style difference here. I'm one of those
people who think that genre conventions ought to trump realism, whose ideal is
to have his supers games emulate a good four-color comic. If you think that
"good four-color comic" is an oxymoron, if you think that the genre
conventions are stupid and unworthy, if your goal is to emulate what
superheros "should" be rather than what they are in the comics, then my rants
are going to sound like nonsense to you.]

> It's
> all the time I'm willing to give my Champs combats, just for the sake
> of fluid play.

I agree that fluid play is very important. I'm just surprised that you're
willing to sacrifice what I consider the *heart* of what makes superheroic
combat superheroic in order to get it.

> >
> > What I'm trying to say is that it seems stilted to me for the
> > baddies to arbitrarily decide to break off after 2 turns.
> >
>
> Because my baddies are intelligent, that's why. Criminals aren't
> interested (for the most part) in proving they can kick the cops ass:
> they want to commit their crime and get a way clean. They fight
> only as much as they have to, to get away with the goods. The only
> villains I have who are interested in destroyed the heros (Genocide),
> are trained in hit and run military tactics. They're normals who
> know they can't take on a group of powerful supers and win in a
> frontal assault. So they use their heads and plan ambushes, quick
> strikes--get in and get out.

In a comicbook world, supervillains *can* kick the cops ass - usually without
breaking a sweat. This is what makes them supervillains rather than just
criminals with more ego than fashion sense. When these supervillians encounter
superheroes, the villains will either (a) have a plan calling for them to
break contact and bail out at once (in which case they won't wait around two
turns before breaking off), or else (b) their ego will require them to try to
knock the heroes down before leaving, in which case they won't change their
minds just because of a little elapsed time.

Agent-type bad guys will use military tactics against the heroes as you
describe, but if the heroes are really *super* heroes and not just a bunch of
powers connected to a delusion of adequacy, then the bad guy's plans and
tactics will have, at best, limited effectiveness.

> > My surprise is that it still takes this long *after* you've taken
> > steps to make combat move more quickly. What you have now sounds
> > like the standard 'before' complaint: "Champions combat takes too
> > long to resolve. It takes me 30 minutes to resolve a mere two turns
> > of combat."
>
> A problem I've seen many Hero GMs have. It's a universal problem,
> endemic to the system. The answer was to create a new system
> (Fuzion), because no one could agree how to fix the old game. You
> must be some sort of miricle worker if you don't have this
> problem--but hey, more power to you.

Not so much miricle working as just having a lot of advantages: Only two
players, speeds kept down to SPD 3 or 4 for the most part, and everyone being
committed to making combat move quickly. Leaving aside small group size, the
most important things IME for speeding up Hero combat are:

*The GM knows the rules cold.

*The GM counts off segements

*Players are ready with their action when their segment gets called - they
don't have to stop and think about it.

*Speed scores are kept uninflated - this improves the game-time/real-time
ratio and makes combat *seem* faster even if it actually lengthens it.

Erol K. Bayburt
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow

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Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 09:43:49 -0500
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Fighting & Superheroes (was RE: GMing tips :Accessori...)
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At 11:40 PM 3/9/98 +0000, Theala Sildorian wrote:
>> This is completely alien to me...I'm the type who will go into a
>> comic shop, flip through a superhero title, and will put it back on
>> the shelf if it doesn't have a decent amount of fighting in it. I
>> sense that I'm in the minority here, but I want fighting and lots of
>> it in my Champions game, whether I'm the GM or the player (I'm
>> usually the GM). It just seems like fighting is the very essence of
>> this superhero thing, and if you take that out, you might as well be
>> role-playing normals....
>>
>
>To each his own. I want more out of ROLEplaying than that, tho. I
>want to understand my opponent--when I read a comic, I usually skim
>over the combat and get to the part where the villains are explaining
>their master plans to their underlings, or how the hero is trying to
>explain to the girlfrined why he missed dinner AGAIN.
>

Some of my best gaming sessions (in many genres) have involved absolutely
no combat at all, and I'm sure many on this list can say the same. One of
my favorite Champions sessions occurred when, in the course of an
investigation, the PC's decided to interrogate the villains they'd captured
in the previous session. As it happened, the villains new absolutely
nothing about the PC's new case, but the interrogations became lengthy
discussions between the crimefighters and the criminals, debating the
concepts of law, justice, good & evil. Some of these characters had quite
complex motivations, so the discussion went far beyond posturing and ranting.

As a long time comics fan, I disagree with the suggestion that "fighting is
the very essence of this superhero thing." Power and prowess seem to be
necessary elements, but straight out combat was minimal until the Marvel
comics of the 1960's; Golden Age heroes spent more time rescuing people,
investigating mysteries, and so on, and often defeated their opponents in a
panel or two. Dynamic fight sequences evolved very slowly, largely due to
the talents and influence of Jack Kirby. Even after Marvel comics appeared
on the scene, DC and other publishers persisted in stories where concepts
(SF, mystery, or whatever) were paramount. Marvel, meanwhile, added
characterization (especially angst) to the mix, playing it out not only
through talky action sequences but also in more mundane circumstances;
Peter Parker worrying about how to pay the rent was as important as
Spider-Man beating up Doc Ock.

I can certainly enjoy a good superhero battle, but to me the reasons _why_
the characters are fighting are generally more important than the fight
itself. In the era of Image Comics, story has often become secondary to
scenes of spectacular macho brawls, but for good reason the comics pendulum
now seems to be swinging back to a focus on ideals and ideas.

Superhero comics are, of course, an action genre, but action does not
always have to equal combat. I sometimes create situations specifically to
let the heroes use their powers for non-combat purposes: fighting natural
disasters, rescuing people from burning buildings, building or excavating,
and so on. Unfortunately, these situations often fall into the gray area of
"special effects", losing some detail in game mechanics; the Hero System,
like most RPG's, tends to be most elaborate in its treatment of combat.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Small campaign
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 06:45:07 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> I'm gearing up to start a new Champions campaign, but I only have 2
> players. Since I'm not really fond of having players run multiple
> characters, that means the hero group will only have 2 members. How would
> you handle this? It seems a little awkward to give a group so small a
> large amount of funding and a base.

No need to have every game follow this sort of route.
Try a Batman Robin sort of thing. Even if one of them's not the other's side
kick, it can work.
Two heroes in a city coming together to stop crime. Run it like most
solo comics tend to go. The hero(s) are out there on there own. No base, no
funding, no support center or backup. It's just them out there against the
odds.

> I had considered making them part of a
> "2nd string" Champions team, having access to the Champions base and taking
> care of local matters while the Champs are away saving the world (of
> course, the PCs would have to rescue the Champs from time to time, etc).

Don't go this way. It's never fun to be second runner up to a bunch
of NPC's. It also makes your job tougher as you have to begin every scenerio
you want to run with "Why can't the big guns handle this."

> However, I mentioned this to one of my players and he doesn't seem to like
> the idea...I'm not sure why, but it might have to do with the fact that
> they would be in the Champions' shadows.

More than likely that's the case. Kinda hard to feel heroic when all
you are is the night shift guy. :)

> 4th Edition rules. I'm waiting for San Angelo: City of Heroes to come out,
> though, in case I like it better. Any ideas?

San Angelo sets itself up on the idea that the PC's are the main guns,
so this may be your best bet.

As I see it, your two best choices are:

1) Two lone heroes up against a world of crime in "THE CITY!". Run it
in the dramatic 'Batman and Robin' style. 200-300 point game most
likely. There is no 'Big Guns'; or the 'Big Guns' work on a much bigger
national/global scale and don't concern themselves with 'small time
crime' like the mob. :)

2) Earth's Guardians. Two Superman powerlevel types, protecting the world
from all manner of threats. The PC's are the worlds most powerful
heroes. They don't need the Champions. In fact, the Champion's
couldn't handle as a team what one of them handles alone. Villians
are grand, ultra powerful, and typically megalomaniacs. 275+ points.
Think 400-500 even. Some of these kind of games even go up to 1000,
but I wouldn't go there unless you have experience in high power
games and plots.


Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing

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X-Sender: geoff@emerald.omg.org
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 09:56:52 -0500
From: Geoff Speare <geoff@igcn.com>
Subject: Time for an admin Radiation Accident
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Hi all,

After goodness knows how many years of adminning the Hero System Mailing
List, it looks like it's coming time to pass the helm on to someone else.
I've just switched jobs, and I'm not sure how long my old company will
suffer the presence of the list on its server. So, I'm looking for someone
to take over the list. This is what I'm looking for:

1) Someone with a high-bandwidth, reliable connection. You all know how
busy this list is. :)

2) Someone who will keep up with and/or automate list admin stuff.

3) Someone who will continue the tradition of open, uncensored debate on
the list. In 4 or so years, I haven't had to kick anyone off the list,
and I've only issued about three warnings.

If you are interested, please send email to geoff@igcn.com (NOTE, this is
DIFFERENT than the email address in the FAQ, and is different from
hero-request@omg.org!). Please send the mail to me privately rather than
the list.

Thanks,

Geoff Speare


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Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 10:05:14 -0500
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Small campaign
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At 08:56 AM 3/10/98 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>I'm gearing up to start a new Champions campaign, but I only have 2
>players. Since I'm not really fond of having players run multiple
>characters, that means the hero group will only have 2 members. How would
>you handle this? It seems a little awkward to give a group so small a
>large amount of funding and a base. I had considered making them part of a
>"2nd string" Champions team, having access to the Champions base and taking
>care of local matters while the Champs are away saving the world (of
>course, the PCs would have to rescue the Champs from time to time, etc).
>However, I mentioned this to one of my players and he doesn't seem to like
>the idea...I'm not sure why, but it might have to do with the fact that
>they would be in the Champions' shadows. For a campaign world, I was
>planning on using Bay City (from Champions: New Millennium) but with the
>4th Edition rules. I'm waiting for San Angelo: City of Heroes to come out,
>though, in case I like it better. Any ideas?
>

It seems to me you're thinking in terms of the "team book" sub-genre, when
the "parter book" works just fine in comics and in Champions. I'd look to
some comics partnerships for inspiration - and there's quite a range,
including Batman & Robin, Power Man & Iron Fist, Cloak & Dagger, the
"World's Finest" team of Superman & Batman, and my favorite current book,
Quantum & Woody.

Two hero teams lend themselves to some stories that can't be done as well
with a larger group, e.g. lone villains, smaller scale crimes, and bigger
Secret ID stories.

As for funding and a base, Batman & Robin certainly aren't lacking in that
respect, nor are some of the other partners I mentioned. You might
encourage at least one of the PC's to be wealthy, or if the characters are
already built and aren't wealthy, allow some resources to fall into their
laps. On the other hand, a partnership can have an easier time without
those resources than a team might. While a bunch of people in spandex will
inevitably need a place to organize (or just hang out), and will require
some information sources and support structure to function as a small
organization, a pair of partners might have their own individual resources
(in those expanded secret ID stories I mentioned).

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 10:10:52 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Small campaign
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Brian Wong
> San Angelo sets itself up on the idea that the PC's are the main
guns,
so this may be your best bet.<

It probably assumes your group has at least 4 heroes, though...I'd have to
scale back on any villain teams or published adventures. Of course, I'd
have to do that with anything, so it's nothing to fault San Angelo for. I
was thinking about playing one or two GM PCs, but I'm not sure that I'm
crazy about running NPCs on both sides of the battle.

>1) Two lone heroes up against a world of crime in "THE CITY!". Run it
in the dramatic 'Batman and Robin' style. 200-300 point game most
likely. There is no 'Big Guns'; or the 'Big Guns' work on a much
bigger
national/global scale and don't concern themselves with 'small time
crime' like the mob. :)<

I think this might work, although I'm more a fan of the team style. If I
did this, I would probably want to pick up a copy of Dark Champions,
wouldn't you think? That seems like it is tailored for smaller groups.

>2) Earth's Guardians. Two Superman powerlevel types, protecting the
world
from all manner of threats. The PC's are the worlds most powerful
heroes. They don't need the Champions. In fact, the Champion's
couldn't handle as a team what one of them handles alone. Villians
are grand, ultra powerful, and typically megalomaniacs. 275+
points.
Think 400-500 even. Some of these kind of games even go up to 1000,
but I wouldn't go there unless you have experience in high power
games and plots.<

I was once a player in a 375-point game...it was fun, but I wouldn't want
to do it as a GM. I usually run 300-point games, although I think I might
go with 250 this time. My reason for 300 points was that I didn't feel you
could adequately build the superhero you had in mind with only 250
points...you had to drop several neat ideas because of point constraints.
However, now I'm thinking that 250 might be plenty, especially since I'm
going to start strongly encouraging that the players not have every single
power at 60 active points. I'm so tired of everyone having a 12d6 EB, an
8d6 AP EB, and so forth. Makes them all pretty much the same. Anyway, I
definitely don't want to go with your 2nd idea...I want the heroes to have
to worry about agents when they show up in force.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 10:34:05 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Fighting & Superheroes (was RE: GMing tips :Accessori...)
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Bill Svitavsky
>As a long time comics fan, I disagree with the suggestion that "fighting
is
the very essence of this superhero thing." Power and prowess seem to be
necessary elements, but straight out combat was minimal until the Marvel
comics of the 1960's; Golden Age heroes spent more time rescuing people,
investigating mysteries, and so on, and often defeated their opponents in a
panel or two. Dynamic fight sequences evolved very slowly, largely due to
the talents and influence of Jack Kirby. Even after Marvel comics appeared
on the scene, DC and other publishers persisted in stories where concepts
(SF, mystery, or whatever) were paramount. Marvel, meanwhile, added
characterization (especially angst) to the mix, playing it out not only
through talky action sequences but also in more mundane circumstances;
Peter Parker worrying about how to pay the rent was as important as
Spider-Man beating up Doc Ock. <

You may have just hit on a big difference between myself (combat hungry)
and some others on this list. I consider myself a long-time comic fan, but
I'm only 25 years old. That golden age stuff you're talking about is
ancient history to me, and I'm not really interested in going back to learn
about it. I was weened on Marvel comics in the 80s, so maybe that's
explanation enough for why I enjoy superhero combat. I gave DC plenty of
chances, but always found their titles somewhat dull...plus, I always felt
they had the worst costumes, worst hero names, and worst power concepts I
had ever come across. I gave several smaller companies chances too, but
none of them are as inherently "superheroic" as Marvel, at least in my
sense of the word. Independent = too dark, in my experience. Anyway, I
can agree with you that Image comics are combat-oriented to the point of
being ridiculous, but I liked several of their titles when they first hit
the scene. Soon after that, though, I dropped comics altogether, and I'm
only just now sending out feelers to see what the industry is like and if I
want to get back into it (boy, comic prices sure go up fast!). My
impression so far is that DC is still "dumb", Marvel is completely
ridiculous with their world-changing and "big event" pandering, Image is
even more ridiculous about combat than it was before, and the independents
are still too dark or are just simply not about superheroes. Of all those,
I think I still prefer Marvel, along with a few Image titles, though.

This is off the subject, but I have to ask...what's the deal with the
X-Titles? Not only the fact that there are way too many of them these
days, but also the fact that they all seem to have HORRIBLE art? If the
X-titles are Marvel's cash cow, why are all the good artists working on
other books? I flipped through some X-titles (Uncanny X-Men was by far my
favorite comic back in the 80s), and was appalled at the goofy, cartoony
art. I've pretty much sworn off the letter X these days.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 10:48:08 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Small campaign
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Bill Svitavsky
>It seems to me you're thinking in terms of the "team book" sub-genre, when
the "parter book" works just fine in comics and in Champions. I'd look to
some comics partnerships for inspiration - and there's quite a range,
including Batman & Robin, Power Man & Iron Fist, Cloak & Dagger, the
"World's Finest" team of Superman & Batman, and my favorite current book,
Quantum & Woody.<

You're right, I've been stuck in the "team" mindset. I guess that's
because I much prefer team comics to solo ones.

>Two hero teams lend themselves to some stories that can't be done as well
with a larger group, e.g. lone villains, smaller scale crimes, and bigger
Secret ID stories. <

You're right, and I'm already seeing the possibilities. I think this is
what I'm going to go for, unless the players just refuse.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 10:56:36 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Foreshadowing and Sub-plots
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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How do you (as GMs) introduce foreshadowing and sub-plots into your
campaign without the players turning all their attention to them instead of
the main plot? For example, if I took a moment out of the main story to
let the heroes know that someone has been stealing bodies from local
graveyards, they would probably think that it was related to the main story
and would focus their efforts on the graveyard thing, instead of the main
plot which is really not related to the graveyard thing.... I'm guessing
that this example is too obvious a use of foreshadowing. How can I be more
subtle? I saw some messages about giving handouts that are like newspaper
stories, so the characters can see what else is going on, but first you
have to have the time and inclination to sit down and write up a bunch of
stuff like that (along with red herrings to keep them guessing), and second
you could still have the problem that they would go after a news story
instead of working on the current plot.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 08:00:01 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Small campaign
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---David Stallard wrote:
>
> I'm gearing up to start a new Champions campaign, but I only have 2
> players. Since I'm not really fond of having players run multiple
> characters, that means the hero group will only have 2 members. How
would


Luke Cage (Power Man) and Iron Fist - Heroes for Hire.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 11:09:40 -0500
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net>
Subject: Re: Foreshadowing and Sub-plots
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David Stallard wrote:

> subtle? I saw some messages about giving handouts that are like
> newspaper
> stories, so the characters can see what else is going on, but first
> you
> have to have the time and inclination to sit down and write up a bunch
> of
> stuff like that (along with red herrings to keep them guessing), and
> second
> you could still have the problem that they would go after a news story
>
> instead of working on the current plot.

Actually, doing up a newspaper isn't nearly as much work as you think,
and can be used for much more than just foreshadowing and sub plots. I
also use it to 'follow-up' on past storylines (the outcomes of court
cases, etc), as well as to high light the press/public opinion view of
the PC's exploits.

I have a 'cheat' for doing up my own newspaper. Download Pointcast
(www.pointcast.com) and subscribe to the online newspaper from several
large cities. When you are ready to do your newspaper, just skim the
headlines from the online newspapers, pick appropriate stories and cut
and paste them into your newspaper.

Besides the obvious benefit (you don't have to write all the 'filler'
stories), it keeps the PCs guessing as to which stories are 'real'
stories, and which are foreshadowing/subplots/red-herrings (as it should
be). Plus - you would be amazed at how many plot ideas you'll pick up
from the various newspaper stories.

I have an example of a newspaper I've done in Word 97 format if you'd
like to see it.


Todd



--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Todd Hanson Minnesota: Land of two seasons:
BadTodd@dacmail.net winter is coming, winter is here.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting & Superheroes (was RE: GMing tips :Accessori...)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 08:23:25 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> This is off the subject, but I have to ask...what's the deal with the
> X-Titles? Not only the fact that there are way too many of them these
> days, but also the fact that they all seem to have HORRIBLE art? If the
> X-titles are Marvel's cash cow, why are all the good artists working on
> other books? I flipped through some X-titles (Uncanny X-Men was by far =
> my
> favorite comic back in the 80s), and was appalled at the goofy, cartoony
> art. I've pretty much sworn off the letter X these days.
>

Maybe because the X-Munchies are such junk now that established
writers and artists don't want to touch them. So the only people who go
to them are newbies trying to make their name. Which makes it hit or miss.
If I was a big name comic book person I'd go to Image and have
them print my own title that I could keep the copyright to...
Which is about what I'm seeing these days. I've noticed a dramatic
up turn in the quality of stuff coming from Image and Awesome in the last
few months.
Like Alan Moore's new revision of Youngblood over at Awesome Comics.
Or StormWatch new revision at Image. Even some of the cheesecake title like
Gen 13 are getting better writing, though still have some way to go.
On the DC side, there are a few gems hidden in there. Check out Impulse
or Catwoman. Impulse is one of the best comics I've ever seen. Catwoman is not
great. But it's not bad either.
Marvel does have a few good titles left to it's name as well.
Thunderbolts is a good read. The new Avengers looks promising; what with the
author being the same person behind Astro City. Generation X, despite being an
X-Munchy title is oddly fun to read.

Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing

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X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 08:25:23 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Champs in...
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>Dave Mattingly wrote:
>
>> Any gamers in or near Seattle? I'm going to be there for a week.
>
>Nope, but I am in Corvallis, OR, and I'm still looking for a few good
>gamers.Anyone out there?

How about this: any good hero gamers of the feminine persuasion in Salem?
We only have one girl in the group, could use more...

----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: shelley@mail.mactyre.net
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 08:41:25 -0800
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <scm@mactyre.net>
Subject: Re: Foreshadowing and Sub-plots
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At 10:56 AM 3/10/98 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>How do you (as GMs) introduce foreshadowing and sub-plots into your
>campaign without the players turning all their attention to them instead of
>the main plot? For example, if I took a moment out of the main story to
>let the heroes know that someone has been stealing bodies from local
>graveyards, they would probably think that it was related to the main story
>and would focus their efforts on the graveyard thing, instead of the main
>plot which is really not related to the graveyard thing.... I'm guessing
>that this example is too obvious a use of foreshadowing. How can I be more
>subtle? I saw some messages about giving handouts that are like newspaper
>stories, so the characters can see what else is going on, but first you
>have to have the time and inclination to sit down and write up a bunch of
>stuff like that (along with red herrings to keep them guessing), and second
>you could still have the problem that they would go after a news story
>instead of working on the current plot.

Make sure you toss enough red herring ideas in with the bona fide ideas if
you do a paper. And when you start to include more RPing in that may or
may not be important to the plot, it becomes much easier to foreshadow.
Also, foreshadowing can be as easy as meeting someone who will later be
injured in a VIPER attack, or having them mention they're going to the
concert where VIPER will attack. If you build on the plots you've already
used, they too can serve as foreshadowing (even if that's not the way you
intended them in the beginning).

Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
http://www.mactyre.net

A flung stone has always been a fool's favorite means of putting himself on
a level with the wise.
-- Edgar Pangborn

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 08:44:20 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Champs in...
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---Christopher Taylor wrote:
>
>
> >Dave Mattingly wrote:
> >
> >> Any gamers in or near Seattle? I'm going to be there for a week.
> >
> >Nope, but I am in Corvallis, OR, and I'm still looking for a few good
> >gamers.Anyone out there?
>
> How about this: any good hero gamers of the feminine persuasion in
Salem?
> We only have one girl in the group, could use more...

No, I'm not responding to your question, merely commenting on it. I
think Salem is the only city name which is used in every state in the
countinental U.S. This being the case, you might get a better
response if you indicate what state you're talking about.

ttfn

-=>John D.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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From: "Michael Rath (Volt Computer)" <a-mirath@microsoft.com>
Subject: RE: Foreshadowing and Sub-plots
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 08:45:02 -0800
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Try using tactics like only telling one hero either between games, taking
him aside, or even passing notes. Another thing to think about is the
amount of info to tell. If you say that someone is stealing bodies, either
they will think its a red herring or part of the senario. I found if you
can try to make up a one or two page "newspaper" you can put small things to
either interest the players or foreshadow. In the instance of the body
snatcher(sorry couldn't help it) try being a little less obvious like
"Mortuary(sp?) misplaces body" let the player speculate and joke about it
until the next time or two. When you can foreshadow with subtlety, your
players can really get hit broadsided when the s*** hits the fan.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Stallard [SMTP:DBStallard@compuserve.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 1998 7:57 AM
> To: champ-l@omg.org
> Cc: [unknown]
> Subject: Foreshadowing and Sub-plots
>
> How do you (as GMs) introduce foreshadowing and sub-plots into your
> campaign without the players turning all their attention to them instead
> of
> the main plot? For example, if I took a moment out of the main story to
> let the heroes know that someone has been stealing bodies from local
> graveyards, they would probably think that it was related to the main
> story
> and would focus their efforts on the graveyard thing, instead of the main
> plot which is really not related to the graveyard thing.... I'm guessing
> that this example is too obvious a use of foreshadowing. How can I be
> more
> subtle? I saw some messages about giving handouts that are like newspaper
> stories, so the characters can see what else is going on, but first you
> have to have the time and inclination to sit down and write up a bunch of
> stuff like that (along with red herrings to keep them guessing), and
> second
> you could still have the problem that they would go after a news story
> instead of working on the current plot.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 09:11:56 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Foreshadowing and Sub-plots
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 10:56 AM 3/10/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>How do you (as GMs) introduce foreshadowing and sub-plots into your
>campaign without the players turning all their attention to them instead of
>the main plot? For example, if I took a moment out of the main story to
>let the heroes know that someone has been stealing bodies from local
>graveyards, they would probably think that it was related to the main story
>and would focus their efforts on the graveyard thing, instead of the main
>plot which is really not related to the graveyard thing.... I'm guessing
>that this example is too obvious a use of foreshadowing. How can I be more
>subtle? I saw some messages about giving handouts that are like newspaper
>stories, so the characters can see what else is going on, but first you
>have to have the time and inclination to sit down and write up a bunch of
>stuff like that (along with red herrings to keep them guessing), and second
>you could still have the problem that they would go after a news story
>instead of working on the current plot.

Part of what you can do about that last problem is to give them news
stories that they might assume have to do with the current plot, let the
PCs pursue them, and then go on with the main plot.
For example, just to be blatant about it, you could have one of them
look out the window of their base (or whatever) and see three masked
figures enter the jewelry store across the street. They all charge over
there, and the three Normal robbers surrender on sight. Or, if you happen
to be in a perverse mood, they turn out to be delivering a singing telegram.
Another example would be a museum that is missing a rare Egyptian
scarab. The heroes read about it in the newspaper and go over to
investigate, and learn that it fell from its casing and was hidden in the
folds of the surrounding cloth, or some similarly simple solution that has
nothing to do with supervillains.
After a while, the police may, in addition to thanking them for their
help, politely ask the PCs to keep away from these cases unless they're
specifically invited in on a case, or there's clear supervillain involvement.
Not all foreshadowing news stories have to look interesting, either.
You could introduce a story with a news item about Montgomery International
and Regis Elapidae Enterprises cooperating on a new Mars probe for NASA.
Unless the PCs (or, at least, the players) know of these companies' ties to
Master Control and King Cobra, they will probably ignore it until something
screwy happens.
Also, as someone else pointed out, you can include real-life news
stories in your papers as well. Add a Champions Universe (or whatever
universe you play in) twist to the stories every once in a while, but
generally stay close to the actual news, as written by real reporters.
This will not only give you extra material, but give the newspaper a sense
of reality as well.
When possible, too, include news reports of the PCs' latest exploits,
and their after-effects. They should probably read about not only the
arrest of the villains from the last session, but progress reports on the
repairs of property damage and recovery from civilian injuries from the two
or three before that.
You can also include some stories on the exploits of NPC hero teams;
this can serve many purposes. First, it can give the PCs a sense of being
a part of a larger superhero community. Second, it can emphasize how the
PCs work in a different sphere than NPC heroes, either socially ("These
guys may go around saving the world, but we're out on the streets, helping
the common man") or geographically. Third, it can serve as a sort of
foreshadowing, as heroes on the other side of the country fail to stop a
villain from stealing a high-tech device or magical artifact which is later
used against the PCs.
I recommend that you take a little time to study and try to emulate the
writing styles of real reporters. I've taken a little Journalism (OK, just
high school courses) and can give a few small tips on journalistic style if
you'd like.
Finally, don't be afraid to put the actual lead-in to your stories into
the newspapers, whether that lead-in is, "VOICE Stages Biggest Stronghold
Jailbreak in History," or, "I'm Carrying Jaguar's Love Child."
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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X-Sender: nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 12:22:05 -0500
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Foreshadowing and Sub-plots
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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At 10:56 AM 3/10/98 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>How do you (as GMs) introduce foreshadowing and sub-plots into your
>campaign without the players turning all their attention to them instead of
>the main plot? For example, if I took a moment out of the main story to
>let the heroes know that someone has been stealing bodies from local
>graveyards, they would probably think that it was related to the main story
>and would focus their efforts on the graveyard thing, instead of the main
>plot which is really not related to the graveyard thing.... I'm guessing
>that this example is too obvious a use of foreshadowing. How can I be more
>subtle?

Other people have already made some excellent suggestions; I've never done
the newspaper thing, but it sounds interesting. Anyway, I too have run into
the problem you mention, and have found some ways around it.

One thing to keep in mind is to make foreshadowing events quite clearly
dead ends. For your graveyard example, maybe the police have already
apprehended the alleged graverobber; later it will turn out they have the
wrong guy. You can even have dead end encounters - the PC's thwart what
seems to be a routine crime, then realize a few adventures later that
there's a pattern to those burglaries (or whatever.)

Another way around the premature tangent is to do the foreshadowing when
the PC's are too busy to even consider taking up another direction. Dr.
Anthrax is headed toward his base, preparing to unleash his dreaded
Ultravirus on the world; the PC's locate his base when they find out huge
quantities of medical research supplies are being delivered to an abandoned
warehouse in the bad part of town, but simultaneously discover that
somebody's been "leaning on" the city's truckers. After they defeat Dr.
Anthrax, it's clear that his interest in the truckers was solely in getting
his deliveries - but now the source who told them about the problem is
missing...

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 09:31:36 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Champs in...
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At 08:44 AM 3/10/1998 -0800, John Desmarais wrote:
>---Christopher Taylor wrote:
>> >Dave Mattingly wrote:
>> >
>> >> Any gamers in or near Seattle? I'm going to be there for a week.
>> >
>> >Nope, but I am in Corvallis, OR, and I'm still looking for a few good
>> >gamers.Anyone out there?
>>
>> How about this: any good hero gamers of the feminine persuasion in Salem?
>> We only have one girl in the group, could use more...
>
>No, I'm not responding to your question, merely commenting on it. I
>think Salem is the only city name which is used in every state in the
>countinental U.S. This being the case, you might get a better
>response if you indicate what state you're talking about.

Actually, there are several more common city names in the US, among them
Springfield and Albany (both of which also appear in Oregon).
PS: I do happen to know that Chris is in Salem, Oregon.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Women in Champions (Re: Champs in...)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 10:08:33 -0800 (PST)
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> >> Any gamers in or near Seattle? I'm going to be there for a week.
> >
> >Nope, but I am in Corvallis, OR, and I'm still looking for a few good
> >gamers.Anyone out there?
>
> How about this: any good hero gamers of the feminine persuasion in Salem?
> We only have one girl in the group, could use more...

We've got the same problem. But I've noticed another
linked trend as well. A few of our group have wives/GF's who are also gamers,
but will refuse to be involved in "Champions". Prefering only WW or D&D and
similar items.
Anyone else ever encounter this? Know any good ways to convince people
that Super Hero gaming is not just for teenage males?

Personally I can't understand how anyone views angst ridden "I am the
monster, I will eat you, and suicide is art" as mature gaming... :) But that's
just me. :)

Fortunatly the one woman we do have in our group is a sane and good
roleplayer. The last group I was in for a very short period actually banned
women from joining them...

Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:31:55 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Fuzion to Hero conversion
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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I was just curious, has anyone converted any stuff from Champions: New
Millennium over to the Hero System? In particular, I'd like to have 4E
stats for the new Champions team, the Guard, etc., since I'm probably going
to run my 4E campaign in Bay City. I haven't looked into doing any
conversions yet, but I figured if somebody out there has already done it,
then maybe I could save myself some work. This is one reason why I've been
holding my campaign until after San Angelo arrives...if I decide to go with
San Angelo, then I won't have to do any converting. Anyway, I have
HeroMaker v2.5 so if you happened to convert into that format, that'd be
great, but I'll take whatever anybody has. Thanks!

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:41:51 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Foreshadowing and Sub-plots
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Todd Hanson
> Actually, doing up a newspaper isn't nearly as much work as you think,
and can be used for much more than just foreshadowing and sub plots. I
also use it to 'follow-up' on past storylines (the outcomes of court
cases, etc), as well as to high light the press/public opinion view of
the PC's exploits.

I have a 'cheat' for doing up my own newspaper. Download Pointcast
(www.pointcast.com) and subscribe to the online newspaper from several
large cities. When you are ready to do your newspaper, just skim the
headlines from the online newspapers, pick appropriate stories and cut
and paste them into your newspaper.<

I'm pretty much convinced...I'm going to try the newspaper idea, although I
don't think I'll do your "cheat" of putting real stories in as fillers.
I'll probably just make up a half-dozen or so stories per "issue", some
pertaining to the current plot, some foreshadowing future events, and some
just for fun. I think the main three benefits of this will be (in no
particular order) foreshadowing, a way for the PCs to see how the public
reacts to their actions, and also a way to relate the actions of the
Champions or other heroes so that the PCs will feel more like they are part
of a bigger world. I would like to take a look at your sample, though, if
you wouldn't mind emailing it to me as an attachment.

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From: Arknight 1 <Arknight1@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:46:02 EST
Subject: Re: Fuzion to Hero conversion
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X-UID: 39

Check out the DIGITAL HERO Section of the Herogames webpage.... have most of
the stats converted already, and are usually adding one or two a week.

Tom

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 10:52:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Fuzion to Hero conversion
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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David Stallard writes:
> I was just curious, has anyone converted any stuff from Champions: New
> Millennium over to the Hero System?

Check at: http://www.herogames.com/herogames/charact.html. Also, the regular
rulebooks include rules for converting hero->fuzion, and they're easily
reversible.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:59:19 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Fuzion to Hero conversion
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Anthony Jackson
>Check at: http://www.herogames.com/herogames/charact.html. Also, the
regular
rulebooks include rules for converting hero->fuzion, and they're easily
reversible.<

Oops, guess I should have done a little surfing first. Sorry all. I knew
there were conversion rules in the Fuzion books, but I didn't want to
duplicate any work that someone else had done, and it looks like I won't
need to.

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X-Sender: dalger@thyme.cisco.com
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 11:01:21 -0800
From: Douglas Alger <dalger@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Women in Champions
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>We've got the same problem. But I've noticed another linked trend as well.
>A few of our group have wives/GF's who are also gamers,
>but will refuse to be involved in "Champions". Prefering only WW or D&D and
>similar items.
>Anyone else ever encounter this? Know any good ways to convince people
>that Super Hero gaming is not just for teenage males?

The best solution I've ever had for hesitant players - male or female - is
to find out what they enjoy about gaming, and then make sure those
components are incorporated into the adventure. A well-run and interesting
game will pull in almost any player, no matter the genre or game system.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: snowy.owlnet.rice.edu: chip owned process doing -bs
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:01:30 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: GMing tips :Accessori
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On Tue, 10 Mar 1998, Rick Holding wrote:

> However, if other groups choose to run with what we consider to be
> inflated dexs and speeds, thats their option. Just expect some dubious glances
> if the characters come Down Under.

Yes! Down with Dex and Speed inflation!

I'm going to find a way to kick my player's butts with a speed 1 hero.
Although I'm not really sure how to go about it.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Fuzion to Hero conversion
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 11:30:08 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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>
> I was just curious, has anyone converted any stuff from Champions: New
> Millennium over to the Hero System? In particular, I'd like to have 4E
> stats for the new Champions team, the Guard, etc., since I'm probably goi=

A lot of this stuff is available at
http://www.herogames.com

Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing

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X-Sender: empulse@usa.net (Unverified)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 11:30:44 -0800
From: Nic Neidenbach <naneiden@iswest.com>
Subject: Re: Women & Champions
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At 10:08 AM 3/10/98 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:
>
>> How about this: any good hero gamers of the feminine persuasion in Salem?
>> We only have one girl in the group, could use more...

After a "dry spell" of no women in our group for quite a while, we now have
to bright young women who are quite enthusiastic about Champions, Fantasy
Hero and even Rolemaster. I think their enthusiasum for something that is
pretty new to them, they were both introduced to Role Playing through White
Wolf's stuff, has reminded many of us how much fun Role Playing games can be.

>
> We've got the same problem. But I've noticed another
>linked trend as well. A few of our group have wives/GF's who are also gamers,
>but will refuse to be involved in "Champions". Prefering only WW or D&D and
>similar items.
> Anyone else ever encounter this? Know any good ways to convince people
>that Super Hero gaming is not just for teenage males?

You might try Fantasy Hero first, if they're fans of D&D. Then you can show
them how the same system they're having fun with in Fantasy Hero allows
them to play in the Superhero genre.

>
> Personally I can't understand how anyone views angst ridden "I am the
>monster, I will eat you, and suicide is art" as mature gaming... :) But
that's
>just me. :)

I'm not sure what it is either. It may have something to do with the
simplicity of the system allowing anyone to create a character without
feeling intimidated by the system itself.

> Fortunatly the one woman we do have in our group is a sane and good
>roleplayer. The last group I was in for a very short period actually banned
>women from joining them...

Now that sounds just plain weird. :)

-Nic
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| naneiden@iswest.com |
| Justice, Like Lightning, Thunderbolts! |
| http://www.iswest.com/~naneiden/comics/thunder.html |
| Costumed Heroines |
| http://www.iswest.com/~naneiden/comics/index.html |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 14:36:00 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Foreshadowing and Sub-plots
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade
>> Part of what you can do about that last problem is to give them news
stories that they might assume have to do with the current plot, let the
PCs pursue them, and then go on with the main plot.<<

I might do that some of the time, but I think more often I'll probably give
stories that are obvious dead-ends, as another list member suggested. I
won't know for sure though until I've done a few "issues" and have a better
idea of how to use the paper to my advantage.

>> Not all foreshadowing news stories have to look interesting, either.
You could introduce a story with a news item about Montgomery International
and Regis Elapidae Enterprises cooperating on a new Mars probe for NASA.
Unless the PCs (or, at least, the players) know of these companies' ties to
Master Control and King Cobra, they will probably ignore it until something
screwy happens.<<

Good point...I will probably have the exploits of various villain-owned
corporations (such as Duchess Enterprises, just off the top of my head) in
the paper, as well as some exploits of completely legitimate corporations.

>> When possible, too, include news reports of the PCs' latest exploits,
and their after-effects. They should probably read about not only the
arrest of the villains from the last session, but progress reports on the
repairs of property damage and recovery from civilian injuries from the two
or three before that.
You can also include some stories on the exploits of NPC hero teams;
this can serve many purposes. First, it can give the PCs a sense of being
a part of a larger superhero community. Second, it can emphasize how the
PCs work in a different sphere than NPC heroes, either socially ("These
guys may go around saving the world, but we're out on the streets, helping
the common man") or geographically. Third, it can serve as a sort of
foreshadowing, as heroes on the other side of the country fail to stop a
villain from stealing a high-tech device or magical artifact which is later
used against the PCs.<<

I definitely plan to use both of these techniques. If the PCs do anything
particularly brave or stupid, I also plan to have some other hero (maybe a
Champion) make a comment about it via news story.

>> I recommend that you take a little time to study and try to emulate
the
writing styles of real reporters. I've taken a little Journalism (OK, just
high school courses) and can give a few small tips on journalistic style if
you'd like.<<

I had a few high school courses as well...while they were mostly a joke, I
think I can mimic the style well enough, although I'm sure there will be
no-nos that a professional journalist would balk at.

>> Finally, don't be afraid to put the actual lead-in to your stories
into
the newspapers, whether that lead-in is, "VOICE Stages Biggest Stronghold
Jailbreak in History," or, "I'm Carrying Jaguar's Love Child."<<

Yeah, I'll probably do that as well, but not all the time. I'm planning to
foreshadow most plots rather than just dumping them on the PCs' laps,
although sometimes that's the best way to do it.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 12:36:31 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Fuzion to Hero conversion
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At 01:31 PM 3/10/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>I was just curious, has anyone converted any stuff from Champions: New
>Millennium over to the Hero System? In particular, I'd like to have 4E
>stats for the new Champions team, the Guard, etc., since I'm probably going
>to run my 4E campaign in Bay City. I haven't looked into doing any
>conversions yet, but I figured if somebody out there has already done it,
>then maybe I could save myself some work. This is one reason why I've been
>holding my campaign until after San Angelo arrives...if I decide to go with
>San Angelo, then I won't have to do any converting. Anyway, I have
>HeroMaker v2.5 so if you happened to convert into that format, that'd be
>great, but I'll take whatever anybody has. Thanks!

A lot of this stuff is on Hero Games' website, under the Digital Hero
header, in the Conversion Corner column. I don't think there are HeroMaker
files, but you can at least get the pertinent stats for most of the
characters. (I *know* all of the Champions are up, though I can't remember
one way or the other about the Guard.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net>
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 20:38:23 +0000
Subject: Re: Shapeshift and Disguise
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

>
> I have a character and I am also GMing a player's character who has
> shapeshift.
>
> I would like to know where you draw the line between disguise and
> just a simple shapeshift? Would imitating an ordinary policeman
> with his uniform and badge require a disguise roll?
>
> Also, does this actually require Instant Change for the clothing
> part?

I would say imitating an ordinary policeman would require a Disguise
roll only if the character in question tries to interact with other
police officers. Otherwise, hows to tell?

As for shapeshift, any character with shapeshift should not need to
make a Disguise roll. If there's a chance the shapeshifter could
"make a mistake" in the shapeshift, this is best represented by
Requires a Skill Roll or an Activation Roll.

Instant Change is not required IMHO, if the shapeshifter has the
points to imitate human shapes.

Amy

----------------
Theala Sildorian
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

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Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net>
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 20:45:09 +0000
Subject: Re: Shapeshift and Disguise (Continued)
Priority: normal
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To: champ-l@omg.org

>
> Based on the BBB, I would read disguise to only be required to
> imitate a particular person. But, doesn't this leave out the subtle
> changes inbetween?
>

Depends on your perspective. If you feel it should, require the
player to purchase the Requires a Skill Roll limitation.

> If I saw a boy scout crossing the road and I wanted to emulate his
> uniform and make myself look like I belong in his group.(Forget the
> fact that the others will not recognize me and probably realize that
> I don't belong) Should I not have to make a disguise roll, even
> though you actually have to pickup the fact that these guys are from
> troop '827' and they all have a hiking merit badge from last summer
> when they all went down the alpine trail... etc. Am I being too
> strict in the thought that looking like a cop requires very little,
> but looking like a convincing cop requires a bit more work or a
> disguise roll?

Probably. It depends on the level of realism you want to achieve.
My suggestion would be to look at the level of roleplaying the
player is putting in to determine whether the "disguise" is seen
through--if the player's shapeshifter is a street tough trying to
meld into a high society function, then the walk and talk of the
character will give away the secret more than physical appearance.
Remember, shape shift does not give the character any abilities he or
she does not already possess--so if the shapeshifter is a street
dancer trying to waltz at the Ritz, it's going to show.

>
> I think that a casual glance wouldn't notice this, but if you want
> to make a convincing display of a type of person you still need a
> disguise roll to pull it off. This is going on the fact that
> Disguise is the skill that lets you pick up all of the
> subtleties(sp?) needed to pull off a good disguise, while Shapeshift
> allows the player to actually make all of the items necessary
> without having to bring a wardrobe and cosmetic kit.

But Shapeshift costs more than Disguise, and should have more
advantages to justify the cost than simply being able to make do
without foci. How is the player roleplaying the situation in
question? Is she just saying "I shapeshift so I fool them" or is she
trying to act out the role she's assuming?

>
> It also allows a player to look like a basketball player when he is
> actually short and overweight. Or be a blonde haired, blue eyed
> boy, when it is actually a female pigmy character.

The Power allows for this--as long as it's equal mass anything goes.
That's the whole point of the Power.

>
> I still think there is plenty of power in this reduced vision of
> shapeshift, but I really want to know how everyone else is running
> this in their campaigns.

I feel the player is having to pay twice for the ability, and do
twice the work. If you're concerned about game balance, use the RSR
limitation.

----------------
Theala Sildorian
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 12:45:24 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Women in Champions (Re: Champs in...)
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At 10:08 AM 3/10/1998 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:
> We've got the same problem. But I've noticed another
>linked trend as well. A few of our group have wives/GF's who are also gamers,
>but will refuse to be involved in "Champions". Prefering only WW or D&D and
>similar items.
> Anyone else ever encounter this? Know any good ways to convince people
>that Super Hero gaming is not just for teenage males?
>
> Personally I can't understand how anyone views angst ridden "I am the
>monster, I will eat you, and suicide is art" as mature gaming... :) But
that's
>just me. :)

I'm also trying to figure out why these women see WW games as *not*
something for the "fresh testosterone" crowd, but feel otherwise regarding
superheroes.
But yeah, I think it's funny how our society puts labels like "mature"
and "adult" on so much material that's really so juvenile....

> Fortunatly the one woman we do have in our group is a sane and good
>roleplayer. The last group I was in for a very short period actually banned
>women from joining them...

I don't think I'll even go into how stupid that is; I think you know
already.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 16:30:12 -0500 (EST)
From: David Majors <asmodeus@shell.ezy.net>
Subject: Shapeshift and Disguise
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org


I have a character and I am also GMing a player's character who has
shapeshift.

I would like to know where you draw the line between disguise and just a
simple shapeshift? Would imitating an ordinary policeman with his uniform
and badge require a disguise roll?

Also, does this actually require Instant Change for the clothing part?

David


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 16:44:29 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Dark Champions?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Okay, well now that I'm thinking in the mode of a two-hero "partnership"
instead of a full-blown team, I'm wondering about Dark Champions. Should I
pick this up? I'm not sure that I want to do the dark vigilante thing, but
it seems like this book might have some good source info for any small
group (such as the types of enemies to throw at 'em). Does Dark Champions
include the source info on Hudson City, or is that a different book? I
have always pretty much ignored the Dark Champions line of supplements up
until now, so it's brand new territory for me (assuming that I take a look
at it, based on everyone's comments here).

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:45:07 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Women & Champions
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>After a "dry spell" of no women in our group for quite a while, we now have
>to bright young women who are quite enthusiastic about Champions, Fantasy
>Hero and even Rolemaster. I think their enthusiasum for something that is
>pretty new to them, they were both introduced to Role Playing through White
>Wolf's stuff, has reminded many of us how much fun Role Playing games can be.

Someone is enthusiastic about Chartmaster©?

sorry couldnt resist heh heh

----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:52:46 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: GMing tips: DEX/SPD Inflation
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 01:01 PM 3/10/1998 -0600, Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:
>On Tue, 10 Mar 1998, Rick Holding wrote:
>
>> However, if other groups choose to run with what we consider to be
>> inflated dexs and speeds, thats their option. Just expect some dubious
glances
>> if the characters come Down Under.
>
>Yes! Down with Dex and Speed inflation!
>
>I'm going to find a way to kick my player's butts with a speed 1 hero.
>Although I'm not really sure how to go about it.

Simple.
Put the guy in a Vehicle -- say, a Giant Robot -- with 25 DEF, plus
enough Life Support, Flash, Mental, and Power Defense to screw over the
"Special Attack" folks. Give it a Damage Shield to keep prying fingers
away. Just to rub it in, stick on a cannon that does around a 5d6 Killing
Attack, Armor Piercing, Double Knockback, No Range Modifier, 0 END. Worse,
if the PCs have a lot of Vulnerabilities against certain Special Effects,
replace the AP and DK with VSFX!
With that and around a dozen Combat Skill Levels, your PCs should last
an average of about twice as many Turns as they have members.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 14:12:36 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Dark Champions?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 04:44 PM 3/10/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>Okay, well now that I'm thinking in the mode of a two-hero "partnership"
>instead of a full-blown team, I'm wondering about Dark Champions. Should I
>pick this up? I'm not sure that I want to do the dark vigilante thing, but
>it seems like this book might have some good source info for any small
>group (such as the types of enemies to throw at 'em). Does Dark Champions
>include the source info on Hudson City, or is that a different book? I
>have always pretty much ignored the Dark Champions line of supplements up
>until now, so it's brand new territory for me (assuming that I take a look
>at it, based on everyone's comments here).

Well, for one thing, the sourcebook for Hudston City is "Justice, Not Law."
I would only go with the Dark Champions route if you want to play a
gritty vigilante style game, from Batman/Azrael/Wolverine down to The
Untouchables or Dark Justice.
One can still take a two-man partnership with a four-color feel, like
the early Heroes for Hire, the World's Finest team-ups of Batman and
Superman, The Tick and Arthur (at least on the TV version, Arthur was
Sidekick in name only), or a variety of other possibilities.
You could even have PRIMUS (or a real-life Federal agency such as the
FBI or the US Marshal's office, if you don't have a PRIMUS write-up) start
a "super-cop" program, where superpowered volunteers are trained as cops
and sent out in pairs to handle cases like regular cops do. They can take
care of single-villain crimes and the like, calling for backup when
full-fledged villain groups are at hand.
For a bit of prestige, the PCs could be the "A-Team," those who get
tossed the cases others can't handle.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 14:14:48 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Shapeshift and Disguise
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

At 04:30 PM 3/10/1998 -0500, David Majors wrote:
>
>I have a character and I am also GMing a player's character who has
>shapeshift.
>
>I would like to know where you draw the line between disguise and just a
>simple shapeshift? Would imitating an ordinary policeman with his uniform
>and badge require a disguise roll?

No, but it might require a Forgery Skill Roll to make a badge that
stands up to close inspection. (Disguise on Shapeshift, as I understand
it, is intended for duplicating specific people.)

>Also, does this actually require Instant Change for the clothing part?

Not if the character is actually naked, and just simulating the clothing
(like Odo on Star Trek: Deep Space Nine).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 14:17:44 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Dark Champions?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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At 04:44 PM 3/10/98 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>Okay, well now that I'm thinking in the mode of a two-hero "partnership"
>instead of a full-blown team, I'm wondering about Dark Champions. Should I
>pick this up?

Yes, regardless. It's one of the best supplements for Hero, period,
especially if you have any interest in 'low level' games, such as Super
Agents or even Cyberpunk. Hell, the collection of relevant, albeit
fictional, Supreme Court decisions is practically worth the cost. "United
States vs. Slime Monster From Dimension X, Decided 1987.."

>I'm not sure that I want to do the dark vigilante thing, but
>it seems like this book might have some good source info for any small
>group (such as the types of enemies to throw at 'em). Does Dark Champions
>include the source info on Hudson City, or is that a different book?

That's mostly scattered through the supplements, all of which have some
useful rules and variants.

If I have a complaint about DC, it's that it shares the "No new powers"
fetish of much of the post-BBB line:Thus, pinning someone's hand to the
wall with a crossbow bolt is written up as an Entangle, instead of just
providing a new combat manuever. There are a lot of "Skills as powers,
powers as skills" variants as well, which I find interesting but
occasionally questionable. I'd recommend whoever is writing Champions V
(grin) look at some of the more baroque constructions in DC and ask himself
if maybe a new rule or two might be better than some of them....


I
>have always pretty much ignored the Dark Champions line of supplements up
>until now, so it's brand new territory for me (assuming that I take a look
>at it, based on everyone's comments here).

I find it eminently worth purchasing. "Eye for an Eye" and "Justice Not
Law" are also good, though not as essential.

On the more four-color side, you might also want to look at the Viper
supplement. Two heroes against a Viper nest can provide a lot of scenarios,
especially if the nest if mostly low on supers of their own and can only
occasionally bring one in.

Hero 1:"Hah! Another day, another dozen viper agents!"
Hero 2:"Yeah, we whupped them...uh...who's THAT?"
Grond:"GROND STOMP!"
Heroes 1&2:"Oh....#%$$#%#%$"

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 14:17:44 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Dark Champions?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

At 04:44 PM 3/10/98 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>Okay, well now that I'm thinking in the mode of a two-hero "partnership"
>instead of a full-blown team, I'm wondering about Dark Champions. Should I
>pick this up?

Yes, regardless. It's one of the best supplements for Hero, period,
especially if you have any interest in 'low level' games, such as Super
Agents or even Cyberpunk. Hell, the collection of relevant, albeit
fictional, Supreme Court decisions is practically worth the cost. "United
States vs. Slime Monster From Dimension X, Decided 1987.."

>I'm not sure that I want to do the dark vigilante thing, but
>it seems like this book might have some good source info for any small
>group (such as the types of enemies to throw at 'em). Does Dark Champions
>include the source info on Hudson City, or is that a different book?

That's mostly scattered through the supplements, all of which have some
useful rules and variants.

If I have a complaint about DC, it's that it shares the "No new powers"
fetish of much of the post-BBB line:Thus, pinning someone's hand to the
wall with a crossbow bolt is written up as an Entangle, instead of just
providing a new combat manuever. There are a lot of "Skills as powers,
powers as skills" variants as well, which I find interesting but
occasionally questionable. I'd recommend whoever is writing Champions V
(grin) look at some of the more baroque constructions in DC and ask himself
if maybe a new rule or two might be better than some of them....


I
>have always pretty much ignored the Dark Champions line of supplements up
>until now, so it's brand new territory for me (assuming that I take a look
>at it, based on everyone's comments here).

I find it eminently worth purchasing. "Eye for an Eye" and "Justice Not
Law" are also good, though not as essential.

On the more four-color side, you might also want to look at the Viper
supplement. Two heroes against a Viper nest can provide a lot of scenarios,
especially if the nest if mostly low on supers of their own and can only
occasionally bring one in.

Hero 1:"Hah! Another day, another dozen viper agents!"
Hero 2:"Yeah, we whupped them...uh...who's THAT?"
Grond:"GROND STOMP!"
Heroes 1&2:"Oh....#%$$#%#%$"

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Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 16:19:25 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Shapeshift and Disguise
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On Tue, 10 Mar 1998, David Majors wrote:

>
> I have a character and I am also GMing a player's character who has
> shapeshift.
>
> I would like to know where you draw the line between disguise and just a
> simple shapeshift? Would imitating an ordinary policeman with his uniform
> and badge require a disguise roll?

I'd require a disguise roll any time he changes shape with the intent of
impersonation; but I'd also provide him a free bonus to his disguise roll
due to his ability to shapeshift.

> Also, does this actually require Instant Change for the clothing part?

IMHO, Instant Change is just a very limited and specialized form of
Shapeshift, and so would automatically be included in the Shapeshift
power.

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
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Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 18:19:59 -0500 (EST)
From: David Majors <asmodeus@shell.ezy.net>
Subject: Shapeshift and Disguise (Continued)
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Based on the BBB, I would read disguise to only be required to imitate a
particular person. But, doesn't this leave out the subtle changes
inbetween?

If I saw a boy scout crossing the road and I wanted to emulate his uniform
and make myself look like I belong in his group.(Forget the fact that the
others will not recognize me and probably realize that I don't belong)
Should I not have to make a disguise roll, even though you actually have
to pickup the fact that these guys are from troop '827' and they all have
a hiking merit badge from last summer when they all went down the alpine
trail... etc. Am I being too strict in the thought that looking like a
cop requires very little, but looking like a convincing cop requires a bit
more work or a disguise roll?

I think that a casual glance wouldn't notice this, but if you want to make
a convincing display of a type of person you still need a disguise roll to
pull it off. This is going on the fact that Disguise is the skill that
lets you pick up all of the subtleties(sp?) needed to pull off a good
disguise, while Shapeshift allows the player to actually make all of the
items necessary without having to bring a wardrobe and cosmetic kit.

It also allows a player to look like a basketball player when he is
actually short and overweight. Or be a blonde haired, blue eyed boy, when
it is actually a female pigmy character.

I still think there is plenty of power in this reduced vision of
shapeshift, but I really want to know how everyone else is running this in
their campaigns.

Desparately seeking answers,

David - Kaleidoscope

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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 17:42:47 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Fighting & Superheroes
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Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us> wrote:
>
> As a long time comics fan, I disagree with the suggestion that "fighting is
> the very essence of this superhero thing."

Maybe not the 'essence'. But certainly a staple of the genre is
'using force/violence or the threat of same to stop crime.'

Curt Hicks

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Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 15:53:10 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Shapeshift and Disguise (Continued)
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At 06:19 PM 3/10/98 -0500, David Majors wrote:
>
>Based on the BBB, I would read disguise to only be required to imitate a
>particular person. But, doesn't this leave out the subtle changes
>inbetween?
>
>If I saw a boy scout crossing the road and I wanted to emulate his uniform
>and make myself look like I belong in his group.(Forget the fact that the
>others will not recognize me and probably realize that I don't belong)
>Should I not have to make a disguise roll, even though you actually have
>to pickup the fact that these guys are from troop '827' and they all have
>a hiking merit badge from last summer when they all went down the alpine
>trail... etc. Am I being too strict in the thought that looking like a
>cop requires very little, but looking like a convincing cop requires a bit
>more work or a disguise roll?
>
Not at all. Indeed, in the campaign I'm about to start, we have a
shapeshifter, and I told her player that to imitate a specific person or
mimic fine detail, a disguise roll would be required.

In other words, to become 'a dog' would not take a disguise roll. To become
'a german shepherd' might, especially if you wanted to fool someone
familiar with the breed. To become 'Rex, the German Shepherd who belongs to
the local Mafia don' would definitely require a disguise roll. "Hey,
boss...have ya noticed dat Rex's black patch is on his left eye all of a
sudden?"

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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 19:37:12 EST
Subject: Re: Shapeshift and Disguise
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<< I would like to know where you draw the line between disguise and just a
simple shapeshift? Would imitating an ordinary policeman with his uniform
and badge require a disguise roll?>>

To the casual observer probably not. But if he tries to fool someone who
*knows* the intricate aspects of a police uniform (i.e., another cop, perhaps
a reporter, a cop's spouse, etc.) then he would have to make a Disguise skill
roll, lest a normal Perception roll on the observer's part give away the
charade.

My 2 cents.

Mark @ GRG

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Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 18:39:41 -0600
From: Mike Whitney <mwhitney@swbell.net>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Women in Champions (Re: Champs in...)
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Brian Wong wrote:

> A few of our group have wives/GF's who are also gamers,
> but will refuse to be involved in "Champions". Prefering only WW or D&D and
> similar items.
> Anyone else ever encounter this?

I have, with my wife. We met at work, she wouldn't have a thing to do with
me...until she saw me rolling up a D&D character at the break table one evening.
She -loves- games, and just -had- to know what those funny dice were for. :) She
played D&D with us for as long as we played that system...but when we switched to
RuneQuest, and then to Hero, she didn't want to learn a new system. She says
she'd rather read a good book than game now, and wasn't too crazy about the new
systems. (She hasn't played with us for 12 years now).

On the other hand, the other ladies in the group have all been troopers. MUCH
better than some of the guys. We'd gladly have booted their hubbies and kept them
in the group on several occassions. :)

> Personally I can't understand how anyone views angst ridden "I am the
> monster, I will eat you, and suicide is art" as mature gaming... :) But that's
> just me. :)

Blech! I never have seen the attraction of that genre. I commented once that you
might as well play Jeffrey Dahmer, since he did the same thing, and maaaan...did
THAT set off a fire storm. :) :)

Mike

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 18:49:16 -0600
From: Mike Whitney <mwhitney@swbell.net>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Foreshadowing and Sub-plots
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David Stallard wrote:

> I definitely plan to use both of these techniques. If the PCs do anything
> particularly brave or stupid, I also plan to have some other hero (maybe a
> Champion) make a comment about it via news story.

My old GM -always- did papers for his games, and LORDY, but we got raked over
the coals by the media if we ever goofed up. And our team goofed up a LOT. We
weren't that popular, and were our own worst enemies.

> Yeah, I'll probably do that as well, but not all the time. I'm planning to
> foreshadow most plots rather than just dumping them on the PCs' laps,
> although sometimes that's the best way to do it.

Now that I'm starting my own group, I'm doing papers, too. I always loved
reading Phil's, and found them great for adding depth and color to the world.
:)

Mike


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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com>
Subject: Re: GMing tips :Accessori
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 19:47:42 -0600
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>I'm going to find a way to kick my player's butts with a speed 1 hero.
>Although I'm not really sure how to go about it.


How about Missile Reflection, Absorption, and Damage Shields? If you start
combat on segment 12 per BBB you can start your Missile Reflection at the
beginning of combat. Make sure it has a powerful attack, or possibly Mind
Control to take over a powerful but weak-minded PC. If you base the Mind
Control on CON and make it Sticky you could possibly take over several
during the segment.

Alan

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Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 20:49:46 -0500 (EST)
From: David Majors <asmodeus@shell.ezy.net>
Reply-To: David Majors <asmodeus@shell.ezy.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Shapeshift and Disguise (Continued)
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On Tue, 10 Mar 1998, Theala Sildorian wrote:

> But Shapeshift costs more than Disguise, and should have more
> advantages to justify the cost than simply being able to make do
> without foci. How is the player roleplaying the situation in

Yes, and for those points the character gets the ability to make
themselves undetectable as their former self. There is no chance that the
player can be seen as who they really are when shapeshifted. They are
also immune to things like hot days running the makeup. Someone isn't
going to notice that the wig is about to fall off... All of these things
are more than disguise could ever do. You can't make someone have
different bone structure with disguise, while a shapeshifted person could
go through an xray and they doctor would still think that the character
was a male when it really is a female.

> I feel the player is having to pay twice for the ability, and do
> twice the work. If you're concerned about game balance, use the RSR
> limitation.

The only problem with making the character use the Requires Skill Roll
limitation is that RSR is an all or nothing thing. RSR would mean if she
didn't make the roll she would look like herself. I am going for if she
doesn't make the roll someone who knows a bit about the type of person she
is trying to become would have a chance to see that it isn't exactly
complete. Casual observers would not even notice even if they were a cop,
unless they really had a great perception roll.

David


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X-Authentication-Warning: ural.owlnet.rice.edu: chip owned process doing -bs
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 20:45:15 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: GMing tips :Length of Combat
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On Mon, 9 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote:

> We also enjoy the tactical depth that you get with the Hero system...when
> we go to a simpler combat system such as AD&D, it's just not that
> fulfilling. We sorta view Champions combat as "miniatures lite", where you
> command one mega-powerful unit instead of a whole army. This might be
> horrifying to those who often type role-playing with ROLE in all-caps, but
> to each his own.... I don't want to get off on a rant here, but sometimes
> I feel a bit persecuted by extreme role-players, as if theirs is the only
> legitimate way to play the game.

HERETIC! INFIDEL!!! UNWORTHY!

Worshipper of ROLL-Playing, instead of ROLE-Playing!!

Unfit to game!!

Cast thee out!!


Or, we could say that Champions is what it is, or even better each
campaign does what it does. If you're having fun, that's what counts. I
don't get into miniatures or non-computerized wargames, and I don't get
into "storytelling" aka White Wolf-approach games, but I like Champions.
Go figure.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 22:20:13 -0500
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Shapeshift and Disguise
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> I have a character and I am also GMing a player's character who has
> shapeshift.

You have my condolences :-) Shape Shifters are tough characters to play,
and even tougher to GM.

>
> I would like to know where you draw the line between disguise and just a
> simple shapeshift? Would imitating an ordinary policeman with his
uniform
> and badge require a disguise roll?

An interesting question, on many different levels. I would assume that if
the character was relatively familiar with the appearance of a police
uniform, it would be easy to duplicate.

>
> Also, does this actually require Instant Change for the clothing part?

IMO, the genre answer is generally "no." Traditionally, shape shifters are
able to alter their clothing as well as their bodies, either changing it
into other clothing more suitable to the new form or, in the case of animal
forms, making it disappear entirely.

Of course, TRADITIONALLY, characters with energy blasts are capable of
deflecting another energy blast by blasting it with their own, but I would
require a character who wanted to do this to buy Missile Deflection (or
possibly Dispel). If the character wanted to be able to shift his clothing,
I would have him purchase Instant Change, linked to the Shape Shift. It's a
relatively cheap cost for a useful ability.

Caveat: if the character had the full level of Shape Shift (into anything),
I would probably let him simulate clothing out of his own body, but NOT to
alter any clothing he was already wearing.

Jeff Reid

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 23:12:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Champions Editions
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 4-5,7-15
From: istorema@juno.com (Bruce A Crow)
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I got into Fantasy Hero in 1987, while I was still in college. It used
3rd Edition Champs rules (I think). I've since lost my copy, which was
quite battered I might add. When 4th Edition Champs came out (shortly
thereafter, IIRC) I started playing that too. (Oh, this is a super hero
game too?)

On Sat, 07 Mar 1998 14:35:07 -0500 Bill Svitavsky
<nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us> writes:

<snip>

>And just out of curiousity, how many people on this list got into the
>Hero
>System before the fourth edition? Did anybody start with a game other
>than
>Champions?

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Subject: Re: Women in Champions
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From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 23:50:39 EST
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>> We've got the same problem. But I've noticed another
>>linked trend as well. A few of our group have wives/GF's who are also
>gamers,
>>but will refuse to be involved in "Champions". Prefering only WW or
>D&D and
>>similar items.
>> Anyone else ever encounter this? Know any good ways to convince
>people
>>that Super Hero gaming is not just for teenage males?

I started gaming with AD&D back in college. When one of the players
decided to start a Champions game, he got me interested by loaning me a
couple of his comics. Once I saw that you could do interesting character
development in that genre, I was willing to spend an afternoon designing
a character instead of studying.

Of course, this tactic can backfire -- I wouldn't show those women comics
featuring Silicone Implant Woman (who is still trying to wear her old
B-cup bras), or comics where the female character is a token or an
automatic hostage. (IIRC, the comics I was loaned included a
first-series Moon Knight {and Marlene was closer to a Follower than a
DNPC in that one} and an early Dreadstar {more S-F than superhero, but a
good strong female character in the team}.)

Leah

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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 00:11:47 -0600 (CST)
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From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
Subject: Re: Women in Champions
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>>> We've got the same problem. But I've noticed another
>>>linked trend as well. A few of our group have wives/GF's who are also
>>gamers,
>>>but will refuse to be involved in "Champions". Prefering only WW or
>>D&D and
>>>similar items.
>>> Anyone else ever encounter this? Know any good ways to convince
>>people
>>>that Super Hero gaming is not just for teenage males?
>
>I started gaming with AD&D back in college. When one of the players
>decided to start a Champions game, he got me interested by loaning me a
>couple of his comics. Once I saw that you could do interesting character
>development in that genre, I was willing to spend an afternoon designing
>a character instead of studying.
>
>Of course, this tactic can backfire -- I wouldn't show those women comics
>featuring Silicone Implant Woman (who is still trying to wear her old
>B-cup bras), or comics where the female character is a token or an
>automatic hostage. (IIRC, the comics I was loaned included a
>first-series Moon Knight {and Marlene was closer to a Follower than a
>DNPC in that one} and an early Dreadstar {more S-F than superhero, but a
>good strong female character in the team}.)


I think one of the best current books you could show a prospective
female super-hero gamer is The Legion Of Super Heroes, in that title the
females often are more pivotal to the story line than the males. While the
characters are teen agers the team aspect is very important, and the
charcters are more than one dimensional.
Another really good teen-team book is Young Heroes In Love. While
the title might throw you off the book is well written and reads a lot like
a Champions game in progress. Both of those book show stong female heroes
as real characters.


Michael

Rising Force Publications
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist our seldom updated web site...
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And for those who fight for it,
life has a flavor the protected never know"
- anonymous

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X-Originating-IP: [206.173.252.196]
From: "Chris Lea" <cdlea@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Small campaign
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 22:16:59 PST
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>From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
>
>I'm gearing up to start a new Champions campaign, but I only
>have 2 players. Since I'm not really fond of having players
>run multiple characters, that means the hero group will only
>have 2 members. How would you handle this?

Pair team-ups aren't that uncommon. Batman & Robin, Cloak
and Dagger, the Green Lantern/Green Arrow team-up from the
'70s. However, as I write this, I'm noticing that these teams
tend to be more street-level, than four-colour, are you up
to trying a Dark Champions campaign?

>It seems a little awkward to give a group so small a large
>amount of funding and a base.

Never seemed to be a problem for Batman. Seems to me that
Moon Knight had a bit of cash socked away. Quite a few of
the street level heroes & vigilante-types seem to have access
to vast sums of money and resources. Then again, Cloak
and Dagger never had two nickels to rub together.

Chris

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Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 22:21:30 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: GMing tips :Accessori
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David Stallard wrote:
>
> Message text written by ErolB1
> >What sort of group are you running? If you've got a half-dozen characters
> on
> each side with each character having SPEEDs of 5-8 then I can see thing
> bogging down. My own view of how fast combat ought to run might be slightly
> skewed since the game I'm currently in has only 2 players, and the GM's
> philosophy calls for cutting back on the speed (300 point characters, mine
> has
> SPD 4 and Vox's has SPD 3.)<
>
> Your group sounds very unusual...I don't think I've ever seen a superhero
> PC with a SPD below 4, and almost all of them are 5, 6, or 7, with a few
> 8's here and there. Your GM must be modifying the SPD for almost every
> published villain, because they have an average of 5-6 as well.

Yep!!! Our gaming group finds it a bit hard to swallow that a person
changes into a pile of rock and actually gets faster. Others are stated "normal"
humans who have obsene levels of dex and speed. I think amongst about a dozen
people who have played champions since it came out, we have had maybe three
characters who have had 6 speed, a larger handful with 5 speed, and about the
same which ended up with 3 speed. All characters had speeds and dexs that
conformed with their conseption.

Some of the characters in the various books have absolutely no
justification for their levels of stats and we modify to fit.

However, if other groups choose to run with what we consider to be
inflated dexs and speeds, thats their option. Just expect some dubious glances
if the characters come Down Under.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------

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X-Originating-IP: [206.173.252.196]
From: "Chris Lea" <cdlea@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Foreshadowing and Sub-plots
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 22:38:25 PST
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>From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>

>How do you (as GMs) introduce foreshadowing and sub-plots
>into your campaign without the players turning all their
>attention to them instead of the main plot? For example,
>if I took a moment out of the main story to let the heroes
>know that someone has been stealing bodies from local
>graveyards, they would probably think that it was related
>to the main story and would focus their efforts on the
>graveyard thing, instead of the main plot which is really
>not related to the graveyard thing....

Well, if you've got the bodysnatching story ready to go
is there any real reason to discourage the heroes from
following it up? Now, if they do so, they'll let the
villains of the other story, which was probably more urgent
succeed in some respect of their plans, but then the
heroes might learn something about setting priorities. :)

Some people have mentioned putting out newpapers, which
is a good way to drop hints and herring and general
filler which you haven't figured out how to turn into a
story (but listen to your players as they talk about it
'cause maybe one of them _can_ turn it into a story, and
then you can praise them for being so clever and picking
up on the story so quickly.)

Another thing is to take copious notes, especially during
what you consider to be a 'throwaway scene.' Go over what
you've said and figure out what you can build from that.
In other words, turn what you've already done into
foreshadowing, rather than trying to figure out how to
sneak the hints in.

Who wants to be a proactive GM anyway? Leave that to the
players. :)

Caveat emptor. YMMV. etc.
Chris


______________________________________________________
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X-Sender: voxel@mail.theramp.net
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 00:46:53 -0600
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: Hand Attack
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At 11:00 AM 3/11/98 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
> Anyway, what is the Hand Attack power intended for?

As the power description states, the Hand Attack power is intended "to
increase the amount of damage [a character] does in hand-to-hand combat". In
other words, it allows you to construct characters whose Strike maneuvers et
al. do more than (STR/5)d6 normal damage.

> The only thing I've been able to come up with would be to simulate
> the extra damage you might cause by using a baseball bat or other blunt
> weapon instead of just your bare hands.

That's the most common use, though not the only one.

> I remember a long time ago I was making a brick/earth controller and I
> bought HA to simulate that his hands (and the rest of his body) were
> solid rock ... the GM frowned at that, but didn't make me get rid of it.

Frown back at him. It's a perfectly good use of the power. Other
possibilities I've seen include bullet-fast superspeed punches and cinematic
martial arts techniques (on the level of Street Fighter "dragon punches").

> I think I've seen comments somewhere saying that some people think HA
> should be removed from the rules.

IIRC, Steve Peterson, the closest thing we have to a "Last Word on HERO",
has made noises (i.e. written errata) that HA should be replaced by STR with
a -1/2 limitation "Only to do damage". Problem being, "Only to do damage"
would by definition include "Doesn't affect figured CHAR", which is already
-1/2, so logic would dictate the former limitation should be bigger.

In my own games, I've had little problem with HA, though this probably has
to do more with other areas of my house rules than in any virtue of the HA
power itself.

> It does seem like more STR with "no figured characteristics" does the
> same thing...

Well, no, because STR with "No Figured CHAR" still affects your lifting,
jumping, and throwing abilities, so it actually does MORE than HA for about
the same cost. Of course, in heroic games (and my superheroic games), it
also uses about twice as much END as HA would for the same amount of points.

--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 02:39:14 -0600
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: Hand Attack
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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At 01:13 PM 3/11/98 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>Message text written by Bryant Berggren
>I'm pretty sure the Martial Arts section of the BBB has a rule allowing you
>to buy extra Damage Classes for your maneuvers, which sounds like the same
>thing you describe above (unless it's only for martial maneuvers).

The "Extra DC" option is, in fact, only for martial maneuvers. In my own
campaigns, I don't allow extra DC (I prefer my players purchase either
combat levels or HA dice, depending on whether we're talking realistic or
cinematic effects).

> I don't think HA needs to be banned, but it should be compared with the
> "regular" damage to which it is adding, to make sure it still balances
> out with the rest of the campaign.

This is true. One of the more common complaints is that HA screws up Active
Point limits; this can be resolved by skipping AP limits in favor of /DC/
limits, where applicable.

--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
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Subject: Re: GMing tips :Accessori
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 08:18:38 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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On 3/10/98 2:01 PM Darien Phoenix Lynx (chip@owlnet.rice.edu) Said:

>I'm going to find a way to kick my player's butts with a speed 1 hero.
>Although I'm not really sure how to go about it.

THe only thing I can say her is: AutoFire Area Affect attacks.

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 07:35:11 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Autofire and Trigger
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On Sun, 8 Mar 1998, Robert A. West wrote:

> Err...try +1 1/2. The rules state, "There is an additional +1 Advantage
> if the Power is not applied against normal defenses or if the power does
> not require a normal To-hit Roll."

What about area-effect autofire attacks? They require the additional +1
advantage, right? Because they target a hex, there is an attack roll, but
is it not a "normal to-hit roll?" I've always been a little unclear on how
to officially deal with AoE autofire attacks.

Oh, BTW, here's a funny story:

I was auditing a new character for one of my players in the EVIL villain
campaign: Carnage, a trigger-happy, bloodthirsty, agent type with lots of
guns. On his character sheet was something like this:

20 Find weakness, w/autofire (+1/2)

or something like that. Gasping in disbelief, I looked up at the player
with the audacity to suggest such a concept! Trying to remain tactful, I
looked at him and calmly suggested, "This is an interesting *idea*... but
autofire? I'm afraid it's a little *too* unbalancing for normal play..."

He looked back at me with equal disbelief. "WHAT are you talking about?
What... it has to be with just "guns" or "pistol," or something?"

My player was just saying that his find weakness worked with his
only "autofire" attack (a machine gun spray). When we both realized what
the other was thinking, we all had a good laugh.

Imagine the ramifications runnign through my head, though... "I'll lay
down find weakness suppression fire." "I'll hit those three hexes with my
find weakness, at -2." "Ah, made my find weakness by 4! 1/8 defenses!"

Gack.

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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 08:03:05 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Segment 12
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Disputes over segment 12 abound. The BBB states that if combat begins with
a surprise attack, only the attackers get to act on segment 12--that's not
a house rule, and it's very advantageous to ambushers.

What if there were two ambushes connected by continuous phasing? Say PC
Barbarian Golth ambushes NPC Fanz on segment 12 outside the house of the
villain Kichub, whom we're trying to assassinate. Inside, invisible, is
PC thief Vax, watching Kichub eat salt snacks. Golth relieves Fanz of all
his stun with a surprise choke hold in 2 phases, then immediately proceeds
into the house (no one gets suspicious because they think he's Fanz coming
back inside.) However, Kichub starts to notice something is up and on 8,
moves his eyes in a way that Vax doesn't like.

Vax has already set on Kichub and unleashes an attack with his held,
hitting him in the head and stunning him. Since Vax is speed 4, he hurls
another on 9. Then again on 12. The GM didn't like this, and began to
wonder if he shouldn't have arbitraily stated that it was segment 12
again. I explained that remapping to segment 12 would have been even more
advantageous, because I could have coordinated with the barbarian
then--but another question arose. Since you lose segment 12 being
surprised, is that loss cumulative with being stunned by a surprise
attack? If you were speed 3, and got stunned in a surprise attack on 12,
would you lose 12 AND 4? In which case the result is the same--three
unopposed actions in a row by a surprise attack from a speed 4 on a speed
3. Should you treat all ambushees as having a held action if it happens
apart from segment 12.

Remapping to segment 12 introduces more complications anyway, because we
need to know when Gotlh gets his recoveries, he might have been hurt in
the brief altercation with Fanz, and certainly used some END.

How do the rest of you handle these not-so-unusual situations?

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Women in Champions
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 06:46:32 -0800 (PST)
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> >> We've got the same problem. But I've noticed another
> >>linked trend as well. A few of our group have wives/GF's who are also
> >gamers, but will refuse to be involved in "Champions". Prefering only WW or
> >D&D and similar items.
> >> Anyone else ever encounter this? Know any good ways to convince people
> >>that Super Hero gaming is not just for teenage males?
>
> decided to start a Champions game, he got me interested by loaning me a
> couple of his comics. Once I saw that you could do interesting character
> development in that genre, I was willing to spend an afternoon designing
> a character instead of studying.
>
> Of course, this tactic can backfire -- I wouldn't show those women comics
> featuring Silicone Implant Woman (who is still trying to wear her old
> B-cup bras), or comics where the female character is a token or an

There's an interesting conflict in many newer comics. The main,
mentally strongest and often leader is typically female. But she's also
often drawn with the 'babe' dial turned up to either '9, 10, or cheesecake'.

Being a regular comic reader I've become somewhat immune to this, I
barely notice it anymore. But I handed Alan Moore's new Youngblood to one of
the member's of our group yesterday and the first comment was "I still they
still draw em with gravity devying bossums." This is a comic where the three
female members are definatly not ditzy background material, but compossed of
the most powerful members of the team.
Gen 13 is the ultimate example, it's leader Caitlin has a large fan
following for the 'poster' Image does of her and all the cheesecake stuff
they draw up for her. For as a character, she's the team intellectual, leader,
brick, and all around most powerful character.
Heh, the ditz in that comic is one of the male members. And they play
him up to the hilt. :)

so... I've begun to wonder if these stronger female character's would
still be offensive due to looks.
On a counterpart, Stormwatch is a comic I like a lot, and in it's
new revamp they dropped all the cheesecake. It was quite interesting to
see the new look on some of the female character's when they were drawn to
look like real people. I compared the first appearance of 'Flint' (a Kenyan
female brick) to her current version and the dif was intensly dramatic.

Rook
__
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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 09:49:51 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Dark Champions?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade
> You could even have PRIMUS (or a real-life Federal agency such as the
FBI or the US Marshal's office, if you don't have a PRIMUS write-up) start
a "super-cop" program, where superpowered volunteers are trained as cops
and sent out in pairs to handle cases like regular cops do. They can take
care of single-villain crimes and the like, calling for backup when
full-fledged villain groups are at hand.<

Sounds like Savage Dragon...he's just a regular cop except that he has
super strength and a green fin on the top of his head. I haven't followed
that comic for a while, but I think now they have several supers on the
police force. I don't know that I'm going to do the cop thing, but I'm
getting excited about running a few heroes without fitting them into the
team concept. Plotlines from old Spiderman and Marvel Team-Up comics keep
coming to mind....

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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 09:49:52 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Hudson City software
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Would anybody recommend for or against the Hudson City software that came
out a few years back? I remember thinking it looked neat, but HC was the
dark vigilante setting so I didn't get it. Now, though, I can't remember
much about it... Anyway, we picked up a laptop not too long ago so I'm all
gung-ho for using it to help me GM...

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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:04:59 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Segment 12
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Can someone explain to me why the BBB says that combat starts on segment
12? Their rationale is something along the lines of giving everyone a
chance to recover right away. What I don't understand is why you need a
recovery right away... Also, I've been a player in games where the initial
segment 12 was a "first come, first serve" round where whoever announced an
action got to do it right then and there, so anyone who wanted could fire
the first blast...then on the next segment 1 we would start tracking SPD
and DEX to determine order. Is this just a house rule, or is this the type
of thing that the initial segment 12 should be used for?

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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:14:09 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Women in Champions
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On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Brian Wong wrote:

> Gen 13 is the ultimate example, it's leader Caitlin has a large fan
> following for the 'poster' Image does of her and all the cheesecake stuff
> they draw up for her. For as a character, she's the team intellectual, leader,
> brick, and all around most powerful character.
> Heh, the ditz in that comic is one of the male members. And they play
> him up to the hilt. :)

Hey!!! I *like* Grunge! He's great! And "Grunge - The Movie" had to be
the funniest comic since, well, I don't know when (esp since I got most of
the 'in-jokes').

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Hudson City software
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 07:23:17 -0800 (PST)
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>
> Would anybody recommend for or against the Hudson City software that came=
> out a few years back? I remember thinking it looked neat, but HC was the=
> dark vigilante setting so I didn't get it. Now, though, I can't remember=
> much about it... Anyway, we picked up a laptop not too long ago so I'm all
> gung-ho for using it to help me GM...
>
Somebody once told me that all the stats info in it is in AD&D terms
and not Hero. However at a Con in 96 I had the Hero people adamently deny this
when I asked about it.
I've never actually seen it in work however. I couldn't justify the
price for the very abstract type of games I tend to run.

Rook
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Segment 12
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 07:28:12 -0800 (PST)
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> Can someone explain to me why the BBB says that combat starts on segment
> 12?

Two reasons:

1) So everybody gets an action in the first round, hopefully before anybody's
been removed from combat yet.

2) So everybody get's the recovery.

Now admittedly, both of these two things could be moved to phase 1.

> Also, I've been a player in games where the initial
> segment 12 was a "first come, first serve" round where whoever announced an
> action got to do it right then and there, so anyone who wanted could fire=
> the first blast...then on the next segment 1 we would start tracking SPD
> and DEX to determine order. Is this just a house rule, or is this the type
> of thing that the initial segment 12 should be used for?

House ruling. Not what I'd go for, as it inheritantly gives the more
vocal players an advantage. It should be the faster characters, not players
that set the tone of the fight. And the tone of a battle is often set in the
first few actions.

Rook
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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:32:51 -0500 (EST)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Women in Champions
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>I started gaming with AD&D back in college. When one of the players
>decided to start a Champions game, he got me interested by loaning me a
>couple of his comics. Once I saw that you could do interesting character
>development in that genre, I was willing to spend an afternoon designing
>a character instead of studying.

>automatic hostage. (IIRC, the comics I was loaned included a
>first-series Moon Knight {and Marlene was closer to a Follower than a
>DNPC in that one}

Marlene was, without a doubt, a Follower, not a DNPC. She was far too
helpful to be a DNPC - she even saves Moon Knight's life a couple times.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:32:59 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Segment 12
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Brian Wong
>1) So everybody gets an action in the first round, hopefully before
anybody's
been removed from combat yet.<

I understand this point...otherwise, I guess it's possible that low SPD
characters could get taken out before they even get to act.

>2) So everybody get's the recovery.<

I don't understand this point, though, which is the one the BBB uses if I
remember correctly. If combat started on phase 1, nobody would be missing
out on a recovery that someone else might get to take. The only thing I
can figure is that, by taking a recovery after the first combat action, it
gives you a better chance that you will get at least 2 actions before you
go down.

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Women in Champions
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 07:33:46 -0800 (PST)
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> > Gen 13 is the ultimate example, it's leader Caitlin has a large fan
> > following for the 'poster' Image does of her and all the cheesecake stuff
> > they draw up for her. For as a character, she's the team intellectual, leader,
> > brick, and all around most powerful character.
> > Heh, the ditz in that comic is one of the male members. And they play
> > him up to the hilt. :)
>
> Hey!!! I *like* Grunge! He's great! And "Grunge - The Movie" had to be
> the funniest comic since, well, I don't know when (esp since I got most of
> the 'in-jokes').

I skipped that one. While normally Gen 13 Bootleg is much better than
the main title. The cover of that one made me turn away. Naked anime women
in bondage is not something I can put on the coffee table at home and try
to explain to my wife. :)

Rook
__
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\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing

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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:37:58 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Autofire
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Is Autofire something that needs to be carefully controlled by the GM? The
reason I ask is because I have one player who always gives his characters
an Autofire attack, and it seems to be fairly effective. Should this be
limited by slapping Charges on it or something similar? I guess they
already have to pay END for each shot, so maybe that's the balancing
factor....

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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:38:56 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Grunge the Movie
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On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Brian Wong wrote:

> > Hey!!! I *like* Grunge! He's great! And "Grunge - The Movie" had to be
> > the funniest comic since, well, I don't know when (esp since I got most of
> > the 'in-jokes').
>
> I skipped that one. While normally Gen 13 Bootleg is much better than
> the main title. The cover of that one made me turn away. Naked anime women
> in bondage is not something I can put on the coffee table at home and try
> to explain to my wife. :)

Pick up the collected edition then. It's a great riff on HK action films.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 07:48:41 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Hudson City software
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At 07:23 AM 3/11/1998 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:
>>
>> Would anybody recommend for or against the Hudson City software that came=
>> out a few years back? I remember thinking it looked neat, but HC was the=
>> dark vigilante setting so I didn't get it. Now, though, I can't remember=
>> much about it... Anyway, we picked up a laptop not too long ago so I'm all
>> gung-ho for using it to help me GM...
>>
> Somebody once told me that all the stats info in it is in AD&D terms
>and not Hero. However at a Con in 96 I had the Hero people adamently deny
this
>when I asked about it.

From what I remember reading about it, they are both correct, in a way.
The software engine used by the Hudson City package is derived from a city
generator for fantasy campaigns, which uses AD&D-style stats as the
baseline. However, you enter your own database fields, so it's no problem
running Hudson City with Hero stats; in fact, I *think* it was remarked
that it's possible to run a combat chart from the program, or at least
tracking combat order, if you don't mind doing a lot of the figures in your
head (like which SPD goes on what segment).

---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 07:55:57 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Segment 12
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At 10:04 AM 3/11/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>Can someone explain to me why the BBB says that combat starts on segment
>12? Their rationale is something along the lines of giving everyone a
>chance to recover right away. What I don't understand is why you need a
>recovery right away... Also, I've been a player in games where the initial
>segment 12 was a "first come, first serve" round where whoever announced an
>action got to do it right then and there, so anyone who wanted could fire
>the first blast...then on the next segment 1 we would start tracking SPD
>and DEX to determine order. Is this just a house rule, or is this the type
>of thing that the initial segment 12 should be used for?

I use Turn 0, Segment 12 (which I abbreviate as 0:12) as a sort of
"initial round" of combat. There are a couple of things that I do a bit
differently, though:
1. I don't give a Post-12 Recovery after it. I figure, they've only
been fighting for one second, so how do I justify bodily systems and such
suddenly getting to recover so suddenly? (You seem to be of the same mind.)
2. If one side is ambushing the other, then the side being ambushed
doesn't get to act on that 0:12. If both sides run into each other by
surprise and just decide to start fighting, then neither gets 0:12. (This
is somewhat like the "surprise" element used in Certain Other Games Systems.)
My rationale on using a 0:12 is that everyone should get an initial
action, and only then space their remaining actions according to SPD.
The "first come, first serve" order on that Segment 12 is rather clearly
a house rule, though it sounds to me like an interesting one.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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X-Sender: geoff@emerald.omg.org
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:00:12 -0500
From: Geoff Speare <geoff@igcn.com>
Subject: Re: Autofire and Trigger
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>Imagine the ramifications runnign through my head, though... "I'll lay
>down find weakness suppression fire." "I'll hit those three hexes with my
>find weakness, at -2." "Ah, made my find weakness by 4! 1/8 defenses!"

My favorite is Suppression Fire with Autofire Telepathy:

"If anyone comes around that corner, I'll know what they're thinking!"

:-)

Geoff Speare


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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:00:36 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Hand Attack
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I've struggled with this one for a long time.... I've gotten the
impression that this has been the center of a lot of controversy, so I hope
I'm not opening old wounds. Anyway, what is the Hand Attack power intended
for? The only thing I've been able to come up with would be to simulate
the extra damage you might cause by using a baseball bat or other blunt
weapon instead of just your bare hands. I remember a long time ago I was
making a brick/earth controller and I bought HA to simulate that his hands
(and the rest of his body) were solid rock...the GM frowned at that, but
didn't make me get rid of it. I think I've seen comments somewhere saying
that some people think HA should be removed from the rules. It does seem
like more STR with "no figured characteristics" does the same thing... I
don't have the BBB handy so I don't know which is the more cost-effective
route, though.

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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:03:17 -0500
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Segment 12
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At 07:28 AM 3/11/98 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:
>> Can someone explain to me why the BBB says that combat starts on segment
>> 12?
>
> Two reasons:
>
>1) So everybody gets an action in the first round, hopefully before >
anybody's been removed from combat yet.

I'd like to note that this is more than a concession to players with slow
characters; it's a necessary part of the simulation. Anybody, no matter how
slow, can get in the first blow of a battle - it's usually the first blow
that everyone else reacts to. Moreover, any group of people with differing
reaction times should be able to coordinate things to attack at about the
same time ("Attack on the count of three!"). In effect, everybody
anticipating a battle has a saved action on the initial Segment 12.

In a surprise attack, the surprised parties don't necessarily get that
Segment 12 action. I believe that's mentioned in the BBB somewhere, though
I don't think I've looked at that rule for quite some time.

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Autofire
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 08:10:01 -0800 (PST)
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> Is Autofire something that needs to be carefully controlled by the GM? The
> reason I ask is because I have one player who always gives his characters=

Oh yeah...

I had the recent experience of bringing in a speedster with an
autofire 7d6 attack into a game that averages 20pd/ed 10d6 attacks...

When I got mindcontrolled and told to go after my allies we all
sat back and watched as I almost singlehandedly took out the entire team
of PC's.
Needless to say, that character will be undergoing a few revisions
by me. I hadn't intended to be so powerful.

She's on my website, not yet fixed, at:

http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/Tao_Kuai.html

Whatch the autofire attacks and area effect attacks. If the character
has a high CV by concept (such as a speedster), try to limit it by enforcing
a lower DC cap. To be honest, I'm not all too sure on good ways to control it.

Rook
__
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\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing

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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:22:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Hero System Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Autofire
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On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote:

> Is Autofire something that needs to be carefully controlled by the GM? The
> reason I ask is because I have one player who always gives his characters
> an Autofire attack, and it seems to be fairly effective. Should this be
> limited by slapping Charges on it or something similar? I guess they
> already have to pay END for each shot, so maybe that's the balancing
> factor....

Autofire can be very effective... if it hits. Normally, an AF attack will
be 8d6 to everyone 12d6 (presuming a 50 AP starting level). So, in order
to really be efecetive, you have to hit at least 3 times. This requires
at least 4 more OCV than your targets DCV, which isn't easy unless you
roll *really* low. For example, a CV 8 character firing at another CV 8
character needs to roll a 7 or less (hitting a DCV of 12 and hitting the
target at DCV 12, 10 & 8).

Now, if the Characters buy a mess of skill levels, then the AF atatck an
get unbalancing. There is also the fact that the GM could (should?) ask
'why do you have an AF attack?'. If everyone of this guy's characters has
AF, I'd get pretty tired of seeing it, myself. Now, the END cost on most
AF attacks should limit their usefulness, I mean an 8d6 AF will suck off
20 END per burst. Not too many people can fire more than two of those and
still hae much left to power such abilites as Flight or a Force Field.
Charges can limit the character, although having more than 20 becomes a
big plus.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:24:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Segment 12
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On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:

> I use Turn 0, Segment 12 (which I abbreviate as 0:12) as a sort of
> "initial round" of combat. There are a couple of things that I do a bit
> differently, though:
> 1. I don't give a Post-12 Recovery after it. I figure, they've only
> been fighting for one second, so how do I justify bodily systems and such
> suddenly getting to recover so suddenly? (You seem to be of the same mind.)

We've used this house rule for so long that I thought it *was* a rule...
And I think it should be too.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:36:43 -0500
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Hand Attack
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At 11:00 AM 3/11/98 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>I've struggled with this one for a long time.... I've gotten the
>impression that this has been the center of a lot of controversy, so I hope
>I'm not opening old wounds. Anyway, what is the Hand Attack power intended
>for? The only thing I've been able to come up with would be to simulate
>the extra damage you might cause by using a baseball bat or other blunt
>weapon instead of just your bare hands. I remember a long time ago I was
>making a brick/earth controller and I bought HA to simulate that his hands
>(and the rest of his body) were solid rock...the GM frowned at that, but
>didn't make me get rid of it. I think I've seen comments somewhere saying
>that some people think HA should be removed from the rules. It does seem
>like more STR with "no figured characteristics" does the same thing... I
>don't have the BBB handy so I don't know which is the more cost-effective
>route, though.
>

I'd allow the HA for having stone hands, *if* I were using the Hand Attack
power. As you say, it's most often used to build a blunt weapon; I'd
consider it appropriate for anything that does additional impact damage at
no range without enhancing general purpose STR.

The problem is in the Active Points. If the GM sets an Active Point limit
for attacks, Hand Attacks will tend to do far more damage than anything
else in the game - a 60 point limit produces a 12d6 EB, but a 20d6 HA. A GM
should always be exercising greater judgment than just laying down
arbitrary limits, of course, but it's a nuisance. In addition, the Act. Pt.
difference tends to unbalance multipowers, etc.

I've used two fixes to the HA problem. On occasion, I've used a -1/2 "Hand
Attack" _Limitation_, which I simply declared to make an Energy Blast
function like a Hand Attack. Some people on this list have objected to that
approach, since it incorporates various other limitations (Can't be Spread,
0 Range, and possibly some others) and also has some minor advantages (STR
damage is added on.) It seems like a perfectly acceptable -1/2 limitation
to me.

Mostly, though, I've just exercised GM prerogative in accepting PC Hand
Attacks. Though I charge 3 points per die as per the BBB, I consider each
die 5 active points for purposes of campaign limits.

I really hope they fix this problem in the 6th edition; it was one of the
biggest flaws of the 5th.


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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Segment 12
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 08:42:48 -0800 (PST)
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> I use Turn 0, Segment 12 (which I abbreviate as 0:12) as a sort of
> "initial round" of combat. There are a couple of things that I do a bit
> differently, though:
> 1. I don't give a Post-12 Recovery after it. I figure, they've only
> been fighting for one second, so how do I justify bodily systems and such
> suddenly getting to recover so suddenly? (You seem to be of the same mind.)

Actually, I've just thought of a good reason for it.
Adreniline boost. (sp?). WHenever people engange in sudden intense actions
they get such a boost as soon as the body becomes aware of what's going on.
That initial post 12 recovery somewhat simulates this. Not a perfect
excuse, but a feasable one.

Rook
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X-Sender: geoff@emerald.omg.org
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:46:29 -0500
From: Geoff Speare <geoff@igcn.com>
Subject: Re: Segment 12
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>> 1. I don't give a Post-12 Recovery after it. I figure, they've only
>> been fighting for one second, so how do I justify bodily systems and such
>> suddenly getting to recover so suddenly? (You seem to be of the same
mind.)

I got rid of it for game-balance reasons; too many people were Pushing or
otherwise burning more END than usual, just because they knew it was all
coming back. Also, it sucked to get initial hits and have them recovered away.

Geoff Speare

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From: "Michael Rath (Volt Computer)" <a-mirath@microsoft.com>
Subject: RE: Segment 12
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 09:13:15 -0800
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>What if there were two ambushes connected by continuous phasing?
Say PC
>Barbarian Golth ambushes NPC Fanz on segment 12 outside the house
of the
>villain Kichub, whom we're trying to assassinate. Inside,
invisible, is
>PC thief Vax, watching Kichub eat salt snacks. Golth relieves Fanz
of all
>his stun with a surprise choke hold in 2 phases, then immediately
proceeds
>into the house (no one gets suspicious because they think he's Fanz
coming
>back inside.) However, Kichub starts to notice something is up and
on 8,
>moves his eyes in a way that Vax doesn't like.

If Vax was waiting for Golth to enter then it would be two combats
both starting on 0:12.
In your example, Kichub "noticed" something. Unless Vax knew the
presice moment that Golth was going to ambush Fanz, I'd have had both Vax
and Kichub make PER rolls to hear the scuffle outside. If Kichub heard
something and Vax didn't, then Vax's player used outside knowledge to assume
that the eye thing was because of Golth's ambush. If they both heard, then
any action would be appropriate and combat would have proceeded as you
described. If Vax was the only one to hear, then a new combat round would
have started when Golth entered and Kichub realized the gig was up.

>Remapping to segment 12 introduces more complications anyway,
because we
>need to know when Gotlh gets his recoveries, he might have been
hurt in
>the brief altercation with Fanz, and certainly used some END

Again, if noone heard the combat outside or if only Vax heard and
decided to wait a new 0:12 combat would have begun.
>

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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:14:41 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Segment 12
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On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Brian Wong wrote:

> Ok, it's pre combat. A team of 6 heroes and another of 6 villians
> are staring at each other and argueing from a distance on a wide open
> african plain.
>
> One of the players tells me her PC is powering up her blast and getting
> ready to let loose. Everyone else is still debating.
>
> Does that one PC get to go first? Does she get an action, then it
> goes to seg 12?
>
> In the game she used it to blast the first villian who tried to attack,
> and I then gave her a second phase 12 action when her time came up, ruling it
> was a pre-12 action for her to do what she did.
> How would other's have GM'd this?

I would have called that the segment 12 action. The BBB states that if
combat begins with a surprise attack, then the attackers get a free
segment 12. Elaborating a bit, I think we can say that anyone with the
status "surprised" during seg. 12 spends segment 12 that way. I'm not sure
if anyone in your example was surprised or not. It sounds like you have
someone who could have qualified as making a surprise attack but held back
(did her blast have "extra time?") and could be treated as having a held
when you declare segment 12. However, although certain advantages can
accrue outside of combat... for example "setting" on an opponent before an
ambush, or already spending the "extra time" on a long start-up power, the
action of attacking still takes your segment 12 action.

Another way of looking at it would be to say that she went into phasing on
her own, although nobody knew about it. So she has a held at the top of 12
that she can use to blast the villains. I favor this approach, but it has
to be carefully controlled or else everybody would go around carrying held
actions.


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From: "Michael Rath (Volt Computer)" <a-mirath@microsoft.com>
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: RE: Hand Attack
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 09:21:52 -0800
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Or a EB with no range. HA can be a very nasty power. I played in a game
with a 60 active limit. The brick in the game bought 45 STR for lifting and
then 5d6 HA more for combat. Whenever he pushed his punch got really gross.
After seeing this "power" gamer, I have pretty much taken the power out of
my games.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Stallard [SMTP:DBStallard@compuserve.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 1998 8:01 AM
> To: champ-l@omg.org
> Cc: [unknown]
> Subject: Hand Attack
>
> I've struggled with this one for a long time.... I've gotten the
> impression that this has been the center of a lot of controversy, so I
> hope
> I'm not opening old wounds. Anyway, what is the Hand Attack power
> intended
> for? The only thing I've been able to come up with would be to simulate
> the extra damage you might cause by using a baseball bat or other blunt
> weapon instead of just your bare hands. I remember a long time ago I was
> making a brick/earth controller and I bought HA to simulate that his hands
> (and the rest of his body) were solid rock...the GM frowned at that, but
> didn't make me get rid of it. I think I've seen comments somewhere saying
> that some people think HA should be removed from the rules. It does seem
> like more STR with "no figured characteristics" does the same thing... I
> don't have the BBB handy so I don't know which is the more cost-effective
> route, though.

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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:24:05 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Segment 12
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On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote:

> It sounds like everyone uses the initial segment 12 action the "normal"
> way, going in DEX order. However, it seems like this could cause some
> unusual "combat entry" scenarios. For example, what if the lowest-DEX
> character initiates combat by saying "I blast 'em!"? Do you let him take
> his action outside of DEX order, or do you still make him wait until his
> DEX comes up? If you do the latter, then he is the last to act even though
> he's the one that started the fight.

Not at all. This character initiates combat, so his action resolves first.
After that, if there was anyone who wasn't surprised (including people on
his own team), then they get actions, in DEX order. If some were
surprised, then they don't get a segment 12 action. However, if there were
some who had reason to expect combat, I treat them as if they have a
held--they can roll off with the initiator if they wish to interrupt his
action. Otherwise, they act on their normal DEX.

The low DEX character in this example might have also tried to get a few
bonuses before the attack as well, like set. However, he risks losing the
element of surprise if his careful observation is noticed.

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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 09:28:00 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Autofire
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At 10:37 AM 3/11/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>Is Autofire something that needs to be carefully controlled by the GM? The
>reason I ask is because I have one player who always gives his characters
>an Autofire attack, and it seems to be fairly effective. Should this be
>limited by slapping Charges on it or something similar? I guess they
>already have to pay END for each shot, so maybe that's the balancing
>factor....

It really is. Autofire looks like it's super-effective, until you
factor in the fact that you have to pay full END or expend Charges for each
shot.
Also remember that Reduced END on an Autofire attack costs double, and
Autofire on any attack that works against defenses other than PD or ED is
an extra +1 Advantage.
Another thing to keep in mind is that any character who frequently uses
a power -- especially an offensive one -- that is unusually effective
quickly gains a Reputation based around it, and frequently becomes the
first target that everyone in a villain group aims at.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:36:04 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: RE: Segment 12
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On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Michael Rath (Volt Computer) wrote:

> If Vax was waiting for Golth to enter then it would be two combats
> both starting on 0:12.
> In your example, Kichub "noticed" something. Unless Vax knew the
> presice moment that Golth was going to ambush Fanz, I'd have had both Vax
> and Kichub make PER rolls to hear the scuffle outside. If Kichub heard
> something and Vax didn't, then Vax's player used outside knowledge to assume
> that the eye thing was because of Golth's ambush. If they both heard, then
> any action would be appropriate and combat would have proceeded as you
> described. If Vax was the only one to hear, then a new combat round would
> have started when Golth entered and Kichub realized the gig was up.
> >Remapping to segment 12 introduces more complications anyway,
> because we
> >need to know when Gotlh gets his recoveries, he might have been
> hurt in
> >the brief altercation with Fanz, and certainly used some END
>
> Again, if noone heard the combat outside or if only Vax heard and
> decided to wait a new 0:12 combat would have begun.

Well, if Golth took 20 stun during the fight outside, then immediately
proceeded indoors, and we decided that we were going to make a new segment
12, how much stun would he have? How far does he travel inside before
Kichub hears his approach? Will Golth be able to coordinate with Vax?
These are some of the complications of calling a new segment 12 when
timing is still important.

To give you the further information you request: Kichub did not hear the
battle outside, and neither did Vax. Kichub only moved his eyes on segment
8, when Golth made a full move into the room behind him. However, Vax and
Golth keep up a mind link and so both were aware of the other's positions
and actions at all times.

Any further insights?

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 09:44:12 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Hand Attack
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At 11:00 AM 3/11/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>I've struggled with this one for a long time.... I've gotten the
>impression that this has been the center of a lot of controversy, so I hope
>I'm not opening old wounds. Anyway, what is the Hand Attack power intended
>for? The only thing I've been able to come up with would be to simulate
>the extra damage you might cause by using a baseball bat or other blunt
>weapon instead of just your bare hands. I remember a long time ago I was
>making a brick/earth controller and I bought HA to simulate that his hands
>(and the rest of his body) were solid rock...the GM frowned at that, but
>didn't make me get rid of it. I think I've seen comments somewhere saying
>that some people think HA should be removed from the rules. It does seem
>like more STR with "no figured characteristics" does the same thing... I
>don't have the BBB handy so I don't know which is the more cost-effective
>route, though.

This is something that the Hero Guys have struggled with for a long
time. It's the one part of Hero that's been unbalanced since its
introduction, and not because of some confusion, misjudgement, or
typographical error. It's legitimately tough to figure out a good,
balanced, and simple way to represent this.
Basically, you're right. HA is best for representing damage from
baseball bats, maces, and similar blunt weapons, or from the ability to
just plain do more damage in hand-to-hand combat than the character's STR
would normally allow.
In the earliest days, this was represented with the -1/2 Limitation
"Only for Damage" on STR, if any Limitation was given at all. Somewhere
along the way (I think it was Champions III or somewhere along that way),
someone came up with a 5-point version that did basically the same thing as
the existing 3-point version, but I guess someone pointed out that it
basically provides extra STR for damage at the same END cost, but doesn't
allow lifting or contribute to figured characteristics, so the cost was
backed off to 3, which has its own set of problems.
The last official word was that HA would be stricken from the rules for
the 5th Edition, and they'd go back to the old standby of using STR or
Energy Blast with a Limitation. There have been a few proposals and
suggestions for ways to expand the usability of HA to make it worth 5
points -- basically, treat it like Energy Blast, except that it has No
Range and STR can add to the damage, just like HKA -- but there's been no
word from the Hero Guys on whether this will be acceptable.
If you don't like HA as it is, and don't have access to any of the
variant versions, I'd recommend that you just use STR, No Figured
Characteristics (-1/2), Damage Only (-1/2).
---
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Segment 12
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 09:49:11 -0800 (PST)
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> I'd like to note that this is more than a concession to players with slow
> characters; it's a necessary part of the simulation. Anybody, no matter how
> slow, can get in the first blow of a battle - it's usually the first blow
> that everyone else reacts to. Moreover, any group of people with differing
> reaction times should be able to coordinate things to attack at about the
> same time ("Attack on the count of three!"). In effect, everybody
> anticipating a battle has a saved action on the initial Segment 12.
>

Ok, it's pre combat. A team of 6 heroes and another of 6 villians
are staring at each other and argueing from a distance on a wide open
african plain.

One of the players tells me her PC is powering up her blast and getting
ready to let loose. Everyone else is still debating.

Does that one PC get to go first? Does she get an action, then it
goes to seg 12?

In the game she used it to blast the first villian who tried to attack,
and I then gave her a second phase 12 action when her time came up, ruling it
was a pre-12 action for her to do what she did.
How would other's have GM'd this?

Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing

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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:13:11 -0500
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Segment 12
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At 09:49 AM 3/11/98 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:

> Ok, it's pre combat. A team of 6 heroes and another of 6 villians
>are staring at each other and argueing from a distance on a wide open
>african plain.
>
> One of the players tells me her PC is powering up her blast and getting
>ready to let loose. Everyone else is still debating.
>
> Does that one PC get to go first? Does she get an action, then it
>goes to seg 12?
>

If she acted, I would most likely consider her action as the beginning of
Segment 12. I would, however, allow her to act out of DEX order, since any
higher DEX characters have essentially declined to act until this point.

> In the game she used it to blast the first villian who tried to attack,
>and I then gave her a second phase 12 action when her time came up, ruling it
>was a pre-12 action for her to do what she did.
> How would other's have GM'd this?
>

Blasting the first villain who tried to attack is a new wrinkle. It seems
to me that the PC decided not to act after all, though she is holding an
action. If the rest of the PC's were completely clueless about the
impending attack, she might be the only player to get a Segment 12 due to
their surprise; but I wouldn't give her an extra attack in either
circumstance. (However, if she had picked out a particular villain, I would
have let her do a "Covered" maneuver before Segment 12.) I would most
likely run this as a standard Segment 12 with everyone acting on both
sides, since everyone knew a fight was likely to break out any second.

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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:13:25 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Hand Attack
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Message text written by Bryant Berggren
>As the power description states, the Hand Attack power is intended "to
increase the amount of damage [a character] does in hand-to-hand combat".
In
other words, it allows you to construct characters whose Strike maneuvers
et
al. do more than (STR/5)d6 normal damage.<

I'm pretty sure the Martial Arts section of the BBB has a rule allowing you
to buy extra Damage Classes for your maneuvers, which sounds like the same
thing you describe above (unless it's only for martial maneuvers). I don't
think HA needs to be banned, but it should be compared with the "regular"
damage to which it is adding, to make sure it still balances out with the
rest of the campaign.

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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:13:26 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Hand Attack
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Bill Svitavsky
>I really hope they fix this problem in the 6th edition; it was one of the
biggest flaws of the 5th.
<

Are you one edition ahead of yourself, or are you saying it's a flaw in 5th
because 5th isn't supposed to make any major rule changes over 4th?

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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:13:27 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Segment 12
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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It sounds like everyone uses the initial segment 12 action the "normal"
way, going in DEX order. However, it seems like this could cause some
unusual "combat entry" scenarios. For example, what if the lowest-DEX
character initiates combat by saying "I blast 'em!"? Do you let him take
his action outside of DEX order, or do you still make him wait until his
DEX comes up? If you do the latter, then he is the last to act even though
he's the one that started the fight.

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Hand Attack
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:14:55 -0800 (PST)
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>
> I really hope they fix this problem in the 6th edition; it was one of the
> biggest flaws of the 5th.
>
>
Wow!
You've got 5th edition already?

Did you use Ex-D movement to go into the future to buy it or
has it come out several months ahead of schedule and I just missed
the announcement?

:)

I know 5th edition is supposed to address the HA issue that 4th edition
started. But I don't know in what manner they plan to do such.

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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:28:08 -0500
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Hand Attack
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At 10:14 AM 3/11/98 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:
>>
>> I really hope they fix this problem in the 6th edition; it was one of the
>> biggest flaws of the 5th.
>>
>>
> Wow!
> You've got 5th edition already?
>
> Did you use Ex-D movement to go into the future to buy it or
> has it come out several months ahead of schedule and I just missed
> the announcement?
>
> :)

D'oh! I don't know why I typed 5th and 6th when I meant 4th and 5th,
obviously.

This does give me an idea for a new power advantage: Transeditional. With
this advantage, a character can use a power under the rules of a previous
(or future?) edition. This is quite useful for those occasions when you
want a vehicle with high acceleration which moves every segment, a gadget
pool with unlimited active points, or an obscenely large END Battery based
on a power limited beyond any likely usefulness. Best of all, it lets you
do a Hand Attack as a 0 Range Energy Blast.

:-)






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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 12:56:42 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Segment 12
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Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
>
> Ok, it's pre combat. A team of 6 heroes and another of 6 villians
> are staring at each other and argueing from a distance on a wide open
> african plain.
>
> One of the players tells me her PC is powering up her blast and getting
> ready to let loose. Everyone else is still debating.
>
> Does that one PC get to go first? Does she get an action, then it
> goes to seg 12?
>
> In the game she used it to blast the first villian who tried to attack,
> and I then gave her a second phase 12 action when her time came up, ruling it
> was a pre-12 action for her to do what she did.
> How would other's have GM'd this?
>
She gets to go. Then everybody else gets to go in DEX order, just as if it
was segment 12. (Actually, segment 1 since I don't use the free post 12
recovery). She does NOT get to go twice.

I'm assuming this is not a delay, so that she is actually actively doing
something.


Curt

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:08:05 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Hand Attack
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At 11:36 AM 3/11/1998 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>I've used two fixes to the HA problem. On occasion, I've used a -1/2 "Hand
>Attack" _Limitation_, which I simply declared to make an Energy Blast
>function like a Hand Attack. Some people on this list have objected to that
>approach, since it incorporates various other limitations (Can't be Spread,
>0 Range, and possibly some others) and also has some minor advantages (STR
>damage is added on.) It seems like a perfectly acceptable -1/2 limitation
>to me.

Given how HA currently works, this method seems reasonable to me as
well. After all, the minor advantages can balance out the extra
limitations to make -1/2; and it does seem a common enough contruct to make
into a "Meta-Modifier" (a single modifier that represents the net result of
a set of Advantages and Limitations).

>Mostly, though, I've just exercised GM prerogative in accepting PC Hand
>Attacks. Though I charge 3 points per die as per the BBB, I consider each
>die 5 active points for purposes of campaign limits.
>
>I really hope they fix this problem in the 6th edition; it was one of the
>biggest flaws of the 5th.

Oh, really, Bill?
---
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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:10:35 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Hand Attack
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At 01:28 PM 3/11/1998 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>This does give me an idea for a new power advantage: Transeditional. With
>this advantage, a character can use a power under the rules of a previous
>(or future?) edition. This is quite useful for those occasions when you
>want a vehicle with high acceleration which moves every segment, a gadget
>pool with unlimited active points, or an obscenely large END Battery based
>on a power limited beyond any likely usefulness. Best of all, it lets you
>do a Hand Attack as a 0 Range Energy Blast.

A perfect addition for Champions Minus! :-]
---
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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:17:35 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Segment 12
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At 09:49 AM 3/11/1998 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:
>> I'd like to note that this is more than a concession to players with slow
>> characters; it's a necessary part of the simulation. Anybody, no matter how
>> slow, can get in the first blow of a battle - it's usually the first blow
>> that everyone else reacts to. Moreover, any group of people with differing
>> reaction times should be able to coordinate things to attack at about the
>> same time ("Attack on the count of three!"). In effect, everybody
>> anticipating a battle has a saved action on the initial Segment 12.
>>
>
> Ok, it's pre combat. A team of 6 heroes and another of 6 villians
>are staring at each other and argueing from a distance on a wide open
>african plain.
>
> One of the players tells me her PC is powering up her blast and getting
>ready to let loose. Everyone else is still debating.
>
> Does that one PC get to go first? Does she get an action, then it
>goes to seg 12?
>
> In the game she used it to blast the first villian who tried to attack,
>and I then gave her a second phase 12 action when her time came up, ruling it
>was a pre-12 action for her to do what she did.
> How would other's have GM'd this?

Were I GM, I would probably have given the blasting PC the one and only
0:12 action, at least among the PCs. (I'm assuming that, since she's
getting set to blast the first villain to attack, it's the villains who are
starting it.) Her action, as a "held" action, would come right after the
first villain's attack.
It's entirely possible that I would've allowed PER Rolls by the other
PCs to notice an impending attack, but I'd probably have to be talked into
it.
---
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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:18:25 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Segment 12
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At 01:13 PM 3/11/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>It sounds like everyone uses the initial segment 12 action the "normal"
>way, going in DEX order. However, it seems like this could cause some
>unusual "combat entry" scenarios. For example, what if the lowest-DEX
>character initiates combat by saying "I blast 'em!"? Do you let him take
>his action outside of DEX order, or do you still make him wait until his
>DEX comes up? If you do the latter, then he is the last to act even though
>he's the one that started the fight.

Chances are, if he started the fight even when none of the other
characters were expecting to get into it, that slow character would be the
only one to go on 0:12 in my campaign. If the others are expecting a fight
and the character in question is merely the one to send out the first blow,
then he acts out of DEX order and the others would operate normally.
---
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Subject: Re: Hudson City software
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 14:28:19 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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On 3/11/98 9:49 AM David Stallard (DBStallard@compuserve.com) Said:

>Would anybody recommend for or against the Hudson City software that came
>out a few years back? I remember thinking it looked neat, but HC was the
>dark vigilante setting so I didn't get it. Now, though, I can't remember
>much about it... Anyway, we picked up a laptop not too long ago so I'm all
>gung-ho for using it to help me GM...

As one of the (apparently) few people who bought this, I would say it was
money that could have been better used as kleenex. The software was not
entirely stable, had no provision for annotating the maps (although
locations and people cauld be added) and was tedious to use, requiring
multiple screens for things that should have been done on one screen.

The built-in stats were indeed for fantasy genres, but you could
customize this, with a little work.

It is a DOS application, and has a fairly simple GUI, but its lack of
polish made it underwhelming in the extreme.

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 16:09:49 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Autofire
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade
> Also remember that Reduced END on an Autofire attack costs double, and
Autofire on any attack that works against defenses other than PD or ED is
an extra +1 Advantage.<

I don't think I knew either of those rules.... I haven't cracked open the
BBB in quite some time (I'm just coming off of another system and am
getting back into Champions), but I'm fairly certain that nobody in my
group new about double cost for Reduced END. I don't think I've ever had
an Autofire that wasn't directed at PD or ED, though.

> Another thing to keep in mind is that any character who frequently uses
a power -- especially an offensive one -- that is unusually effective
quickly gains a Reputation based around it, and frequently becomes the
first target that everyone in a villain group aims at.<

Good point, I'll keep that in mind.

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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 16:37:58 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Various questions
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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I've got a few questions about a brick/earth controller character I built
several years ago for a 375-point game. This character (Obelisk) is
probably the one I've had the most fun with over the years, but as you'll
see below there were a lot of questionable pieces to him. Most of these
have to do with special effect translations:

1) The character had an Entangle which was essentially a giant earthen
hand being formed from the ground and grabbing the target. Is this just
special effect, or should it have been bought with Indirect? The character
also had an ablative Force Wall which could be used as a dome around a
character (I think this is standard with all Force Walls, isn't it?)...do
you think this makes the Entangle redundant, or is there value in having
both? Certainly the Force Wall can be used in more ways than just a dome,
but does the dome perform the same function as the Entangle?

2) I wanted the character to be able to form objects from the ground, such
as a chair, a table, a big arrow pointing somewhere, a face (like Mt.
Rushmore, but smaller scale), or whatever. I can't remember how this was
bought, but how would you do it? I think maybe I bought it as a low-level
Telekinesis that only affected the ground-level hex (thus, no huge towers
or anything), with the special effect being that the earth was actually
forming into some shape. This doesn't sound like the right way to do it,
though. Perhaps a Transform?

3) In one adventure, the team found themselves floating in the ocean after
our satellite base came crashing to earth (compliments of Shrinker). Even
though I don't think I had a power to represent this, the (very gracious)
GM allowed me to bring a column of the ocean floor up to form a small
surface for the group to sit on, and then using the "wave" motion that I
think is suggested as a special effect for extra Running, I moved this
surface along until we reached shore. I realize this is probably a very
expensive power, but how would you buy it? I think the GM rationalized it
by saying it was an extension of the power listed in #2 above (the "only
affects ground hex" may have come in a later revision of the character, I
don't remember).

4) I had around 15" of Tunneling, which I think was faster than I could
run. The reason I bring this up is because the special effect was that the
earth would just open up in front of me, and close up behind me, so I could
walk/run in a "bubble" as if the earth wasn't there. Should the inches in
Tunneling have been limited to my Running speed, or is Running not relevant
here?

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 09:35:12 +1100
From: Mad Hamish <h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Adjusting hit locations was:Re: Pre Attacks
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

At 06:46 AM 3/9/98 -0500, John P Weatherman wrote:
>Rick Holding rholding@ActOnline.com.au 3/9/98 8:23 PM
>
>> >Ruegen attacks, and Inigo blocks, but instead of a clean block, or a
>> >clean chest shot for Ruegen it gets his arm (first two thrusts after the
>> >thrown dagger). I could see this as color for the stun mult/location
>> >roll but....
>>
>> Actually that's not how I saw it. I always saw that as just _missing_ the
>> arm but hitting the sleeve of Inigo's shirt. a perfect block.
>
>His arms were bleeding in the movie, he definantly took the hit.
>
Great! I've got an excuse to see the movie again <g>

****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************

Mad Hamish

Hamish Laws
h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au
h_laws@tassie.net.au

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: "Warren E Henderson III" <warren@newenglandpc.net>
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 98 23:00:46
Reply-To: "Warren E Henderson III" <warren@newenglandpc.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Moon Knight
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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X-UID: 5

On Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:32:51 -0500 (EST), John and Ron Prins wrote:

>Marlene was, without a doubt, a Follower, not a DNPC. She was far too
>helpful to be a DNPC - she even saves Moon Knight's life a couple times.

I has been awhile since I looked at comics. Does this Hero have some
connection to Egyptian mythology? If so it must be a farly long
running comic


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford)
Subject: Re: Segment 12
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 23:11:17 GMT
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

On Wed, 11 Mar 1998 09:49:11 -0800 (PST), you wrote:


> Ok, it's pre combat. A team of 6 heroes and another of 6 villians
>are staring at each other and argueing from a distance on a wide open
>african plain.
>
> One of the players tells me her PC is powering up her blast and getting
>ready to let loose. Everyone else is still debating.
>
> Does that one PC get to go first? Does she get an action, then it
>goes to seg 12?

If no enemy spotted her powering up (if it is visible), then I'd allow
her to fire first. If someone spotted her getting ready for combat,
then I'd start combat normally.

John Lansford
http://users.vnet.net/lansford/a10/intro.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:41:26 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Various questions
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 04:37 PM 3/11/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>I've got a few questions about a brick/earth controller character I built
>several years ago for a 375-point game. This character (Obelisk) is
>probably the one I've had the most fun with over the years, but as you'll
>see below there were a lot of questionable pieces to him. Most of these
>have to do with special effect translations:
>
>1) The character had an Entangle which was essentially a giant earthen
>hand being formed from the ground and grabbing the target. Is this just
>special effect, or should it have been bought with Indirect? The character
>also had an ablative Force Wall which could be used as a dome around a
>character (I think this is standard with all Force Walls, isn't it?)...do
>you think this makes the Entangle redundant, or is there value in having
>both? Certainly the Force Wall can be used in more ways than just a dome,
>but does the dome perform the same function as the Entangle?

If the hand had been tossed from the character, I'd build it normally;
coming from the ground as it does, I think I'd ask for it to be Indirect.
No, the Force Wall dome doesn't perform the same function as the
Entangle any more than an energy dome would perform the same function as
nuclear bonds, or a sheet of metal would perform the same function as an
entangling bola. However, an argument could be made to define the stone
wall as an Area Effect (Line) Entangle.
One significant difference is that Entangle doesn't have to be
maintained, while Force Wall does. Another is that Force Wall doesn't
restrict those inside it, while Entangle does (unless bought with Area
Effect and defined as a barrier instead of an Entangle).

>2) I wanted the character to be able to form objects from the ground, such
>as a chair, a table, a big arrow pointing somewhere, a face (like Mt.
>Rushmore, but smaller scale), or whatever. I can't remember how this was
>bought, but how would you do it? I think maybe I bought it as a low-level
>Telekinesis that only affected the ground-level hex (thus, no huge towers
>or anything), with the special effect being that the earth was actually
>forming into some shape. This doesn't sound like the right way to do it,
>though. Perhaps a Transform?

Either Telekinesis or Transform would probably work equally well,
depending on what kind of dynamic the player and GM want out of the Power.

>3) In one adventure, the team found themselves floating in the ocean after
>our satellite base came crashing to earth (compliments of Shrinker). Even
>though I don't think I had a power to represent this, the (very gracious)
>GM allowed me to bring a column of the ocean floor up to form a small
>surface for the group to sit on, and then using the "wave" motion that I
>think is suggested as a special effect for extra Running, I moved this
>surface along until we reached shore. I realize this is probably a very
>expensive power, but how would you buy it? I think the GM rationalized it
>by saying it was an extension of the power listed in #2 above (the "only
>affects ground hex" may have come in a later revision of the character, I
>don't remember).

If I were to charge for such a thing, I almost definitely would call it
a Major Transform, probably targeting the water at 5 BODY/hex (that's a
totally abitrary figure, I'd be open to reasoned suggestions). I'd
probably make it dirt cheap by letting it be bought as part of an Elemental
Control, with a truckload of Limitations (like Only Over Water for -2, and
some Increased END Cost).
Another way to do it would be to allow Stretching, UAO, only vs the
ground. The problem with this, though, is that it would have to be
maintained unless bought to 0 END Persistent.

>4) I had around 15" of Tunneling, which I think was faster than I could
>run. The reason I bring this up is because the special effect was that the
>earth would just open up in front of me, and close up behind me, so I could
>walk/run in a "bubble" as if the earth wasn't there. Should the inches in
>Tunneling have been limited to my Running speed, or is Running not relevant
>here?

Nah. For this guy, it seems perfectly reasonable to me that he'd be
able to travel faster under the ground than on top of it.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 16:54:18 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Segment 12
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

> > Ok, it's pre combat. A team of 6 heroes and another of 6 villians
> >are staring at each other and argueing from a distance on a wide open
> >african plain.
> > One of the players tells me her PC is powering up her blast and getting
> >ready to let loose. Everyone else is still debating.
> >
> > Does that one PC get to go first? Does she get an action, then it
> >goes to seg 12?
> Were I GM, I would probably have given the blasting PC the one and only
> 0:12 action, at least among the PCs. (I'm assuming that, since she's
> getting set to blast the first villain to attack, it's the villains who are
> starting it.) Her action, as a "held" action, would come right after the
> first villain's attack.
> It's entirely possible that I would've allowed PER Rolls by the other
> PCs to notice an impending attack, but I'd probably have to be talked into
> it.

Oh the heros and villians knew it was coming.
In fact; the villians even announced they were going to attack before doing so.

sort of a
"And now, we attack!" kind of thing.

:)

This one player had just told me her character was holding ready
to interupt when it finally did happen.


--
Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 16:55:30 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Segment 12
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

>It sounds like everyone uses the initial segment 12 action the "normal"
>way, going in DEX order. However, it seems like this could cause some
>unusual "combat entry" scenarios. For example, what if the lowest-DEX
>character initiates combat by saying "I blast 'em!"? Do you let him take
>his action outside of DEX order, or do you still make him wait until his
>DEX comes up? If you do the latter, then he is the last to act even though
>he's the one that started the fight.

One of my gaming group came up with a handy idea for the game, rolling a D12
for the segment started on... so its random, and no one knows right away
what is going on, thus shaking up the old timer players (phase 6 and 7
consecutively? damn he must have speed 7!).

----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 16:58:43 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Autofire
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

> > Also remember that Reduced END on an Autofire attack costs double, and
> Autofire on any attack that works against defenses other than PD or ED is
> an extra +1 Advantage.<
>
> I don't think I knew either of those rules.... I haven't cracked open the
> BBB in quite some time (I'm just coming off of another system and am

He's right. Now I have to go back and double check a few characters to see
if I did it right. I use heromaker so I imagine it did it for me...
But it's in the 4th paragraph of autofire.


--
Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing


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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 17:13:45 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Segment 12
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

At 04:54 PM 3/11/1998 -0800, Rook wrote:
>> > Ok, it's pre combat. A team of 6 heroes and another of 6 villians
>> >are staring at each other and argueing from a distance on a wide open
>> >african plain.
>> > One of the players tells me her PC is powering up her blast and getting
>> >ready to let loose. Everyone else is still debating.
>> >
>> > Does that one PC get to go first? Does she get an action, then it
>> >goes to seg 12?
>> Were I GM, I would probably have given the blasting PC the one and only
>> 0:12 action, at least among the PCs. (I'm assuming that, since she's
>> getting set to blast the first villain to attack, it's the villains who are
>> starting it.) Her action, as a "held" action, would come right after the
>> first villain's attack.
>> It's entirely possible that I would've allowed PER Rolls by the other
>> PCs to notice an impending attack, but I'd probably have to be talked into
>> it.
>
> Oh the heros and villians knew it was coming.
>In fact; the villians even announced they were going to attack before
doing so.
>
>sort of a
> "And now, we attack!" kind of thing.
>
> :)
>
> This one player had just told me her character was holding ready
>to interupt when it finally did happen.

Oh, well, in that case, I'd just start everyone on 0:12, with the
fastest villain going first, the hero with the held action going second,
and everyone else in DEX order.
Mind you, that's how I'd GM it; others probably have different takes.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 17:49:10 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Twisted Scenario Ideas
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

Here's an idea I thought up this afternoon. It's a good scenario for a
Dark Champions campaign, with a really cruel twist.
Suppose the PCs are in a situation where they need to learn the
top-secret security codes used in a now-discontinued but extremely
sensitive project by the government of a foreign power. For the sake of
argument, let's say that the government of the People's Republic of China
did some biological warfare research in the 1970s, but some terrorist group
(like VIPER or VOICE) has stolen it and is preparing to release the virus
for its own vile purposes. The Chinese are understandably reluctant to
even admit that such research exists, and so are not forthcoming with the
information.
However, the PCs, working through the Internet, are able to get past
security measures in the Chinese government's computers -- up to a point.
They need an extremely long access code to get the actual information that
will enable them to neutralize the virus.
From their information sources, they learn that two Chinese nationals
are in the area who used to work on that government project. One has a job
at the consulate (or even the embassy), while the other is in town on
unrelated business. Each knows half of the access code needed to get into
the information on the Chinese government's computer system.
The PCs find themselves with little choice but to kidnap these two
Chinese and Interrogate the information out of them. Sure enough, each of
them knows half of the access code.
The problem is that it's the same half.
I don't know how the PCs would get out of that mess....
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: champion@mailhost.cyberhighway.net
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 17:49:33 -0800
From: Jim Dickinson <champion@cyberhighway.net>
Subject: Re: Segment 12
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 11:46 AM 3/11/98 -0500, Geoff Speare wrote:
>>> 1. I don't give a Post-12 Recovery after it. I figure, they've only
>>> been fighting for one second, so how do I justify bodily systems and such
>>> suddenly getting to recover so suddenly? (You seem to be of the same
>mind.)
>
>I got rid of it for game-balance reasons; too many people were Pushing or
>otherwise burning more END than usual, just because they knew it was all
>coming back. Also, it sucked to get initial hits and have them recovered
away.

What's really great, is to SAVE your Phase 12 action until 1 or 2... Then
you can really do some damage AFTER the Post 12 recovery...

For example, it may be better for a brick to hold on 12 unless he thinks he
can STUN his target outright...which would make his target lose the Post 12
recovery. Otherwise the brick should wait until 1, or even 2, sucking up
whatever damage he took on 12 (and hopefully recovered on Post 12), and
then landing a solid, unrecoverable blow on 1 or 2, or even coordinating
with a faster character, etc.

I sometimes do this with agents, knowing that our gallant heroes can't hit
them ALL, so some teams of agents, or a few agents in each team, will hold
their Phase 12 hoping to still be conscious on 1 to fire a nasty volley of
blaster-fire. I have cleaned up with a few heros this way, because they
thought they had it made until Phase 3 when they expected the agents to be
able to make their first moves that turn. So the agents who saved stunned
two heros, who then lost their next action recovering, and the rest of the
agents mopped up on phase 3...

...damn sneaky, eh?


_________________________________________________________________
Jim Dickinson -=- Portland, OR USA -=- champion@cyberhighway.net
WWW Role-Playing Resource
Castle Game Knight: http://www.aircyber.net/~jd/cgk
Join the Circle of HEROs: http://www.aircyber.net/coh
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 21:43:04 -0800
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com>
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com
Organization: None
Subject: re-subscribe
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 1

suscribe me again please!!!

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Champs in...
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 02:02:08 -0500 (EST)
Organization: VTSFFC
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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Well, I'm in Seattle.....
Daniel Pawtowski

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 05:36:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Segment 12
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-10,12-20
From: dwtoomey@juno.com (David W Toomey)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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>For example, it may be better for a brick to hold on 12 unless he
>thinks he
>can STUN his target outright...which would make his target lose the
>Post 12
>recovery.

Only if you're playing a house rule...The BBB states, under Stunning:

A character who is Stunned, or recovering from being Stunned can take no
action, take any recoveries (except the free post-segment 12)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


David W Toomey
dwtoomey@juno.com





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Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 03:07:28 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Organization: Satan's Children
Subject: Re: Champions Editions
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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Since there has been a cornucopia of responses to the rest of the
query, I'll get right to...

> And just out of curiousity, how many people on this list got into the Hero
> System before the fourth edition? Did anybody start with a game other than
> Champions?

I was introduced to Champions with 2nd ed. My D&D DM (frighteningly
popular reference point that D&D, i'nt it?) decided one night to 'try
out this new game' he found. That was in '86 I believe. Oddly, he was
a horrible GM - always making sure that either the PCs lost, or were
saved by his favorite villian group, and good stuff like that - and I'm
surprised that I didn't get turned off of gaming completely. I guess I
realized that there was a RIGHT way to do it and shortly started my own
game(s).
Within a few months I had acquired Champions II and III (powers/rules
supplements at the time) and several adventure supplements including
Deathstroke and the Great Super Villian Contest. I bought Champions 3rd
ed. when it came out - or very shortly thereafter - and the BBB within
the week it arrived at my favorite comic store. And for nostalgia's
sake, I found myself a copy of 1st ed. for my collection.
The game I first played, though, was BattleStar Galactica. I don't
know if it was an actual RPG on the market or a homebrewed game from my
brother's gaming group. I was only 13 or so, and hadn't been exposed to
gaming before that.

--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 09:14:56 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Various questions
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade
> If I were to charge for such a thing, I almost definitely would call it
a Major Transform, probably targeting the water at 5 BODY/hex (that's a
totally abitrary figure, I'd be open to reasoned suggestions). I'd
probably make it dirt cheap by letting it be bought as part of an Elemental
Control, with a truckload of Limitations (like Only Over Water for -2, and
some Increased END Cost).<

What do you mean by "if I were to charge for such a thing"? Are you saying
that you might let the player do such a thing without having a power to
represent it, or are you saying that you probably wouldn't allow such a
power? The character also had extra Running which was defined as a "wave"
of earth that he could ride on, so I think this plus the character's
ability to shape the ground (Telekinesis) was what sold the GM. Really,
it's just an extension of the Running special effect (just a much taller
wave coming from the ocean floor to the surface), except it would have been
Area Effect as well. Anyway, I know the GM was stretching the limits of my
character's special effects, but I don't know if this sort of thing is
common or if most GMs go strictly by what the character spent points to
have.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: snowy.owlnet.rice.edu: chip owned process doing -bs
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 08:17:36 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Traffic Lights
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

On Sat, 7 Mar 1998, Urklore The Iron wrote:

> Greetings all,
> I was wondering how any of you would simulate the ability to alter traffic
> lights or the ability to shut down various parts of a city's power systems
> through computer hacking or actually interfacing with the various computer
> systems mentioned above?

Change Environment, RSR (Computer Programming), possibly OAF (data access
port or laptop etc.), possibly indirect or transdimensional(pick your
poison for "through network connections")?


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 09:40:13 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Brick "Stupid Tricks"
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by David Fair
>Hard Skin:
Damage Shield & Missle Deflection<

Does the Damage Shield represent the fact that punching the brick would be
like punching a brick wall, which could hurt? With Damage Shield, people
who shake hands with the hero are going to take damage as well, which
doesn't match up with the "brick wall" special effect. I guess you could
turn it on and off though...I was assuming that "Hard Skin" would be Always
On. Also, why Missile Deflection instead of Armor or just extra PD/ED?
Missile Deflection means the hard skin doesn't protect against melee
attacks, and it only protects against missile attacks if you make your
roll. If you only wanted it to protect some of the time, I would think
that an Activation roll on Armor or extra PD/ED would be the better choice.

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Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 08:57:41 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Various questions
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I would prefer another choice over the suggestions presented so far, which
seem more inflexible. As I've stated before in my guidelines for elemental
controllers, I would expect two powers in your Earth Control EC: Change
Environment and Suppress. Certainly we need an expanded Change Environment
(Cosmetic, Minor, Major)--but I would consider most of the "unusual"
applications of your earth control power part of change environment. More
precisely, for unusual applications of your powers which you don't have
explicitly defined, CE becomes a good reason to smile upon them.

Certainly all the other suggestions make sense, but strike at the symptoms
and not the disease. Someone who controls an element can get mileage out
of the CE and Suppress powers. It helps GMs give a leg up to SFX without
feeling like the characters are getting something for nothing. In my
campaigns, you don't have to specify the SFX that you will suppress; I
base it on the SFX of your element. If the element is particularly
effective, I require "variable SFX" advantages to taste.

For example, your character comes across a raging fire, and wants to put
out the fires by heaping earth on it. Good time for your supress. You want
to make a mount-rushmore-type image, you've got the CE. Lots of other
applications come to mind, and having a couple of free-form powers in your
EC is a big help.

Another, more kosher option, which I don't recommend, is to use a VPP for
these effects.

On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote:

> I've got a few questions about a brick/earth controller character I built
> several years ago for a 375-point game. This character (Obelisk) is
> probably the one I've had the most fun with over the years, but as you'll
> see below there were a lot of questionable pieces to him. Most of these
> have to do with special effect translations:
>
> 1) The character had an Entangle which was essentially a giant earthen
> hand being formed from the ground and grabbing the target. Is this just
> special effect, or should it have been bought with Indirect? The character
> also had an ablative Force Wall which could be used as a dome around a
> character (I think this is standard with all Force Walls, isn't it?)...do
> you think this makes the Entangle redundant, or is there value in having
> both? Certainly the Force Wall can be used in more ways than just a dome,
> but does the dome perform the same function as the Entangle?
>
> 2) I wanted the character to be able to form objects from the ground, such
> as a chair, a table, a big arrow pointing somewhere, a face (like Mt.
> Rushmore, but smaller scale), or whatever. I can't remember how this was
> bought, but how would you do it? I think maybe I bought it as a low-level
> Telekinesis that only affected the ground-level hex (thus, no huge towers
> or anything), with the special effect being that the earth was actually
> forming into some shape. This doesn't sound like the right way to do it,
> though. Perhaps a Transform?
>
> 3) In one adventure, the team found themselves floating in the ocean after
> our satellite base came crashing to earth (compliments of Shrinker). Even
> though I don't think I had a power to represent this, the (very gracious)
> GM allowed me to bring a column of the ocean floor up to form a small
> surface for the group to sit on, and then using the "wave" motion that I
> think is suggested as a special effect for extra Running, I moved this
> surface along until we reached shore. I realize this is probably a very
> expensive power, but how would you buy it? I think the GM rationalized it
> by saying it was an extension of the power listed in #2 above (the "only
> affects ground hex" may have come in a later revision of the character, I
> don't remember).
>
> 4) I had around 15" of Tunneling, which I think was faster than I could
> run. The reason I bring this up is because the special effect was that the
> earth would just open up in front of me, and close up behind me, so I could
> walk/run in a "bubble" as if the earth wasn't there. Should the inches in
> Tunneling have been limited to my Running speed, or is Running not relevant
> here?
>

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:13:38 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: The great Linked debate?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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I wasn't around for this, so I don't know what all the debate was about.
Without starting it up all over again, could someone maybe sum up the
different viewpoints on Linked? I have almost never seen Linked used in a
game I was involved in (I recall one winged character who had two linked
Energy Blasts, but that's about it), so I'm not real familiar with it.
>From earlier messages, I think I read that some people think you can do
multiple attacks per phase WITHOUT having those attacks linked. However,
according to the mini-FAQ that I was sent when I joined this mailing list,
you may peform only one attack action per phase. My interpretation has
always been that once you perform an action that requires a roll of the
dice, your turn is over. Anyway, I don't want to get this dreaded debate
fired up again, but I would be interested to know what the positions of the
different sides were. Maybe you could reply via e-mail if it's going to
start some controversy? Maybe I'm overdoing it, but I get the impression
that this is a very touchy subject.

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Champions Editions
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 07:17:46 -0800 (PST)
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> > And just out of curiousity, how many people on this list got into the Hero
> > System before the fourth edition? Did anybody start with a game other than
> > Champions?
>
> I was introduced to Champions with 2nd ed. My D&D DM (frighteningly
> popular reference point that D&D, i'nt it?) decided one night to 'try
> out this new game' he found. That was in '86 I believe. Oddly, he was
> a horrible GM - always making sure that either the PCs lost, or were
> saved by his favorite villian group, and good stuff like that - and I'm
> surprised that I didn't get turned off of gaming completely. I guess I
> realized that there was a RIGHT way to do it and shortly started my own
> game(s).

I remember those old D&D/early champs days. For me it was in 85.
I and several other local people at High School were making the switch
from D&D to Hero and other choices.
I knew GM's who considered a game a failure if at least 50% of the
PC's didn't die. Other GM's handing out EP's in D&D monty hual fashion, the
random villian of the week routine, and countless other horrors. :)
It took us a while to get it right. Though the best luck came from
people who'd been playing V&V for a while, and the odd person here and there
who'd been at champs since even earlier.

There was a time, in the early 80's, where getting out a piece of
graph paper, a random maze generator, a random monster table, and then a
random treasure table made you a qualified GM. :) I still had a folder full
of those up until a few years ago when I lost it.

I myself got into Champions by accident. We all met up after school
and decided to do an impromptu game, but couldn't find the 'DM' to our AD&D
group. While we were walking one guy said 'Lets do Champions'. I had no
idea what that was, and the idea of a super hero game frankly sounded odd.
But I tagged along anyway.
I bought my own copy a week later, and was running my own game a week
after that. Think I bought Fantasy Hero shortly after. I know I got my copy
the first day I saw it.
Bought the BBB as they were taking the first copies out of the
shipping boxes. I remember standing there with a friend asking if I could buy
it now or if I had to wait till it was on the shelf. :)

As for RPG's. I got into them in 1982 when my mother bought me basic
D&D for my birthday. I'd played it once before at a cousins house, but the
game was so bad it had turned me off to it completley. From there I went to
'Melee & Wizard', the progenitor of GURPS, when I bought it thinking it was
a D&D module (not knowing anything but D&D existed), and then the James Bond
RPG, Gamma World, and Star Frontiers.
Only after finding Hero did I truely begin to explore the game stores
for what was out there and get my nose into just about everything of the day.

Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Brick "Stupid Tricks"
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 07:24:41 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> Message text written by David Fair
> >Hard Skin:
> Damage Shield & Missle Deflection<
>
> Does the Damage Shield represent the fact that punching the brick would be
> like punching a brick wall, which could hurt? With Damage Shield, people=
> who shake hands with the hero are going to take damage as well, which
> doesn't match up with the "brick wall" special effect.

There's an example of this in the comics.
Penance from Generation X has skin that she has contracted to be so tight
that she cuts anything that touches her (exept for the ACME super-leather they
have her wearing :) ). Her skin is so 'hard' that she even cut into 'Husk'
when Husk (another Generation X'er) had turned herself to diamond and tried to
hug Penance...

As for one that only hurt people who punch it and such, I would
still use damage shield, but then buy a limitation on the damage shield's
part of the power's cost saying it was only vs. that sort of attack and not
just touch of any kind.
Of course if the whole power could only be used as a damage shield,
then I'd apply that lim to the whole power's cost and not just that advantage.

Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing

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Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:29:46 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Brick "Stupid Tricks"
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Brian Wong
> As for one that only hurt people who punch it and such, I would
still use damage shield, but then buy a limitation on the damage shield's
part of the power's cost saying it was only vs. that sort of attack and not
just touch of any kind.<

That sounds more like an advantage than a limitation, doesn't it?

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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Brick "Stupid Tricks"
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 07:31:30 -0800
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David Fair:
>Hard Skin:
Damage Shield & Missile Deflection<

David Stallard:
>With Damage Shield, people who shake hands with the hero are
>going to take damage as well, which doesn't match up with the
>"brick wall" special effect. I guess you could turn it on and off
though...

You could always put a lim on the damage shield that the amount of the
damage shield depends on the amount of the attack. I like to set the
STUN of the damage shield equal to the BODY of the attack. Kind of like
Penetrating, in reverse.

>Also, why Missile Deflection instead of Armor or just extra PD/ED?

Because Missile Deflection isn't limited by the AP of the attack. An
anti-aircraft round that would normally do some STUN and knockback
against a brick now bounces harmlessly off his chest. A deflecting brick
could take an ICBM on the chin and not care.

Dave Mattingly
http://www.geocities.com/soho/5953

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 07:35:37 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Various questions
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At 09:14 AM 3/12/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>Message text written by Bob Greenwade
>> If I were to charge for such a thing, I almost definitely would call it
>a Major Transform, probably targeting the water at 5 BODY/hex (that's a
>totally abitrary figure, I'd be open to reasoned suggestions). I'd
>probably make it dirt cheap by letting it be bought as part of an Elemental
>Control, with a truckload of Limitations (like Only Over Water for -2, and
>some Increased END Cost).<
>
>What do you mean by "if I were to charge for such a thing"? Are you saying
>that you might let the player do such a thing without having a power to
>represent it, or are you saying that you probably wouldn't allow such a
>power? The character also had extra Running which was defined as a "wave"
>of earth that he could ride on, so I think this plus the character's
>ability to shape the ground (Telekinesis) was what sold the GM. Really,
>it's just an extension of the Running special effect (just a much taller
>wave coming from the ocean floor to the surface), except it would have been
>Area Effect as well. Anyway, I know the GM was stretching the limits of my
>character's special effects, but I don't know if this sort of thing is
>common or if most GMs go strictly by what the character spent points to
>have.

Since it's basically a one-shot power, I might not charge for it at all,
and allow the character to just do it based on having earth control.
Basically, what I was saying in that phrase was that I'd likely rule as
your GM did.
It just occurred to me, in fact, that having an Entangle with AE: Line
or (more likely) AE: Any, defined as a barrier, could do this just fine, as
long as the bottom of the ocean floor is within the character's range. All
he'd have to do is stack each Entangle's hexes on top of each other, and
each Entangle on top of the previous one until he got to the top. And an
earth-mover would be a good candidate for such a power.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:38:46 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Brick "Stupid Tricks"
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Brian Wong
> As for one that only hurt people who punch it and such, I would
still use damage shield, but then buy a limitation on the damage shield's
part of the power's cost saying it was only vs. that sort of attack and not
just touch of any kind.
Of course if the whole power could only be used as a damage shield,
then I'd apply that lim to the whole power's cost and not just that
advantage.<

Sorry for replying to this again, but I re-read it and got confused. I
thought that a power was either a Damage Shield or it wasn't...you don't
have the option of turning on or off the Damage Shield "portion" of the
power. So as an Energy Projector, I would need to buy a regular Energy
Blast and then buy a 2nd EB with Damage Shield tacked on...this 2nd EB
could ONLY be used a DS, and the regular EB could NEVER be used as a DS.
Is this the wrong interpretation? How can you apply a limitation to only
part of a power?

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: The great Linked debate?
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 08:11:23 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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>
> I wasn't around for this, so I don't know what all the debate was about. =
>
> Without starting it up all over again, could someone maybe sum up the
> different viewpoints on Linked? I have almost never seen Linked used in a

PLEASE TAKE ALL RESPONSES AND COORSPONDANCE ON THIS ISSUE TO
PRIVATE EMAIL ONLY !!!

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Brick "Stupid Tricks"
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 08:14:42 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> > As for one that only hurt people who punch it and such, I would
> still use damage shield, but then buy a limitation on the damage shield's
> part of the power's cost saying it was only vs. that sort of attack and not
> just touch of any kind.<
>
> That sounds more like an advantage than a limitation, doesn't it?
>
No, cause normally damage shield will hurt anyone who makes physical
contact with you.
This limitation restricts damage shield to only those that make
physical contact with you as part of a brute force attack (like a punch, but
not like a sword slash). So it's actually removing most of damage shield's
uses.

Rook
__
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\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Brick "Stupid Tricks"
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 08:33:05 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> > As for one that only hurt people who punch it and such, I would
> still use damage shield, but then buy a limitation on the damage shield's=
> part of the power's cost saying it was only vs. that sort of attack and not
> just touch of any kind.
> Of course if the whole power could only be used as a damage shield,
> then I'd apply that lim to the whole power's cost and not just that
> advantage.<
>
> Sorry for replying to this again, but I re-read it and got confused. I
> thought that a power was either a Damage Shield or it wasn't...you don't
> have the option of turning on or off the Damage Shield "portion" of the
> power. So as an Energy Projector, I would need to buy a regular Energy
> Blast and then buy a 2nd EB with Damage Shield tacked on...this 2nd EB
> could ONLY be used a DS, and the regular EB could NEVER be used as a DS. =
>
I don't know.
I'll have to check my BBB. I was unsure, which is why I chose that wording.
Obviously if a damage shield prevents a power from being used normally, then
the limitation would apply to the whole power.

> Is this the wrong interpretation? How can you apply a limitation to only=
> part of a power?
>
Here's an example from my speedster character.
This character is a normal who 'changes' into a super by saying a mytic phrase.

So I bought a variable advantage on my str, with a special effect
of speedster tricks (I can do area effect, autofire, ap, or whatever I
can justify with super speed at a given moment). I then put Only In Hero ID
onto the advantage's cost. This means that in normal form I still have my
Str, but only in super form can do advantages to it.
So obviously getting OIHD on the whole of my Str would not make
sense.

Rook
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Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 08:39:10 -0800 (PST)
X-Sender: nexus@uky.campus.mci.net (Unverified)
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net>
Subject: Brick Tricks
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Some ideas:

Ripping up a chunk of concrete, peice of a wall, etc and using it as a sheild

Force Wall with apprpriate lims.

Breaking foci, peeling off powered armor, etc,

Dispel vs Breakable foci with various limits to taste

Limited Tunneling can make a good power for ripping effortlesly through the
bank vaults and things like that.

A HKA defined as "unrestrained strength" for ripping apart robots and other
inanimate object, going on the 4 color assumption of a CAK. Less moral
bricks could use this against the living....

Super Recovery: Aid to stats, any below normal self only. The bricks
powerful body can shake off debilating effects in a moment. Could also be a
justification for Power defense

Long Distance Throw:Flight UAO, must grab target first. Defense would be
flight, extreme weight or breaking the grab.

Double Knockback on Strength with extra time lim ("windup") For REALLY huge
knockback use a linked FLight, UAO.
I know violence doesn't solve all problems...
But it sure feels good!
Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior

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Subject: Re: Various questions
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 11:48:48 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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>>2) I wanted the character to be able to form objects from the ground, such
>>as a chair, a table, a big arrow pointing somewhere, a face (like Mt.
>>Rushmore, but smaller scale), or whatever. I can't remember how this was
>>bought, but how would you do it? I think maybe I bought it as a low-level
>>Telekinesis that only affected the ground-level hex (thus, no huge towers
>>or anything), with the special effect being that the earth was actually
>>forming into some shape. This doesn't sound like the right way to do it,
>>though. Perhaps a Transform?

I would do this as a change environment, since it would appear to little
combat application, perhaps with a lim for extra time, or some such.

>3) In one adventure, the team found themselves floating in the ocean after
>our satellite base came crashing to earth (compliments of Shrinker). Even
>though I don't think I had a power to represent this, the (very gracious)
>GM allowed me to bring a column of the ocean floor up to form a small
>surface for the group to sit on, and then using the "wave" motion that I
>think is suggested as a special effect for extra Running, I moved this
>surface along until we reached shore. I realize this is probably a very
>expensive power, but how would you buy it? I think the GM rationalized it
>by saying it was an extension of the power listed in #2 above (the "only
>affects ground hex" may have come in a later revision of the character, I
>don't remember).

Again, this is a CE.

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

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X-Sender: voxel@mail.theramp.net
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 11:05:54 -0600
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: Brick Tricks
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At 08:39 AM 3/12/98 -0800, Kim Foster wrote:
>A HKA defined as "unrestrained strength" for ripping apart robots and other
>inanimate object, going on the 4 color assumption of a CAK. Less moral
>bricks could use this against the living....

Since HKA do roughly the same body per DC as the brick's STR, and since
inanimate objects by HERO convention ONLY have resistant defense, so that
there's no inherent advantage is doing "killing damage" instead of "normal
damage", one would think the brick would be better off just buying more STR,
and pulling his punches against living beings. In other words, to simulate
"unrestrained strength", use unrestrained STR. :]

--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html

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Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 11:27:14 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Brick "Stupid Tricks"
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On Thu, 12 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote:

> Message text written by Brian Wong
> > How is not bein able to a damage shield under most of it's normal
> uses an advantage?<
>
> Because a normal damage shield (especially the "Always On" variety) can be
> quite an inconvenience in normal life (especially if you're always on
> fire!). By slapping on that limitation, you can conduct more of a normal
> life, while still getting some of the advantages of a damage shield in
> combat. It's limiting in combat, advantageous elsewhere.

40 1D6 RKA,Always On(-1/2),Continuous(+1),Uncontrolled(+1/2),
Damage Shield(+1/2),0 END(+1/2),Sticky(+1/2)

Oh yeah, when deciding on what phases a continuous attack takes place, I
let the player decide on creation whether it is:

a) on his character's phases with his natural speed
b) on his target's phases
c) on the average campaign speed's phases

Special effects usually dictate (b) or (c). Being on fire is probably (c).
Poisons and drugs are usually (b). Very rarely do I allow (a), the BBB's
official position.

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Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 11:39:31 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Various questions
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On Thu, 12 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote:

> Message text written by Darien Phoenix Lynx
> >I would prefer another choice over the suggestions presented so far, which
> seem more inflexible. As I've stated before in my guidelines for elemental
> controllers, I would expect two powers in your Earth Control EC: Change
> Environment and Suppress. Certainly we need an expanded Change Environment
> (Cosmetic, Minor, Major)--but I would consider most of the "unusual"
> applications of your earth control power part of change environment. More
> precisely, for unusual applications of your powers which you don't have
> explicitly defined, CE becomes a good reason to smile upon them.<
>
> This is nice... Change Environment has never been a common power in any
> game I've been involved with, but from what I've seen on this list, it's
> incredibly useful. I'm not quite sold on Suppress, though--I can see how
> it would be handy in some cases, but it doesn't seem like it would be used
> nearly as often as CE.

Perhaps. But suppress offers you a good mechanic for using your own
element to defeat another element. It often comes up, and it can make
battles between SFX in play more interesting. Considering this earth
example:

- putting out or slowing down open fires
- slowing water powers by turning it to mud
- slowing or stopping plant-based powers by smothering them with earth
- reducing the effectiveness of stone or earth-based force walls and
entangles
- breaking apart earth-based projectiles (made of stone, wood, or clay)
- counteracting quake and vibration powers by setting up an opposing
earthquake or stopping vibration with earth

and so on. You won't use it every battle, but having it in my campaigns
lets you get a lot more creative with your powers, and really get into the
special effects.

The reason for having suppress in addition to CE is so you're allowed to
have more than just passing combat effects with creative applications of
your special effect.


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Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:49:50 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Brick "Stupid Tricks"
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Brian Wong
> No, cause normally damage shield will hurt anyone who makes
physical
contact with you.
This limitation restricts damage shield to only those that make
physical contact with you as part of a brute force attack (like a punch,
but
not like a sword slash). So it's actually removing most of damage shield's
uses.<

But it is essentially making the damage shield more convenient, which
sounds like an advantage to me. I dunno, I can see it both ways...if a
Mentalist touched your forehead in order to control your mind, your damage
shield wouldn't help you there.

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Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:49:51 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Brick "Stupid Tricks"
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Message text written by Dave Mattingly
>Because Missile Deflection isn't limited by the AP of the attack. An
anti-aircraft round that would normally do some STUN and knockback
against a brick now bounces harmlessly off his chest. A deflecting brick
could take an ICBM on the chin and not care.<

Ah, good point. Although in those cases it would be important to track
where the missile is deflected to, since it could do serious damage to
other characters and the surrounding area. In the case of an ICBM, the
brick would still get fried when it detonated next to him.

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Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:49:52 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Various questions
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade
> Since it's basically a one-shot power, I might not charge for it at
all,
and allow the character to just do it based on having earth control.
Basically, what I was saying in that phrase was that I'd likely rule as
your GM did.<

Ah, okay. This leads to another question... How often do GMs allow "new
powers" like this that aren't paid for on the character sheet but which
make sense with the character's special effects? I don't think I've ever
done this, but maybe I should start...it might encourage some creative
thinking.

> It just occurred to me, in fact, that having an Entangle with AE: Line
or (more likely) AE: Any, defined as a barrier, could do this just fine, as
long as the bottom of the ocean floor is within the character's range. All
he'd have to do is stack each Entangle's hexes on top of each other, and
each Entangle on top of the previous one until he got to the top. And an
earth-mover would be a good candidate for such a power.<

I'm not sure why you're suggesting Entangle instead of Force Wall. Is it
because Entangle doesn't have to be maintained? Other than that, I don't
see any difference in this case. Anyway, your method doesn't take into
account the fact that this big column of earth is moving like a wave, with
the characters riding the crest. To make successive columns using
Entangles wouldn't be practical unless you bought it down to zero END.

Back to the Force Wall/Entangle thing...it seems to me that an Entangle
with AE:Line, defined as a barrier, could always take the place of a Force
Wall. You wouldn't be able to form a dome with it, but the END savings
would more than make up for this. This seems like a "dirty trick" that I'm
not sure I'd allow, but it certainly would be effective. You could raise
barriers all over the place since you wouldn't need to save END for barrier
maintenance.

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Brick "Stupid Tricks"
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:35:52 -0800 (PST)
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> Message text written by Brian Wong
> > No, cause normally damage shield will hurt anyone who makes
> physical
> contact with you.
> This limitation restricts damage shield to only those that make
> physical contact with you as part of a brute force attack (like a punch,
> but
> not like a sword slash). So it's actually removing most of damage shield'=
> s
> uses.<
>
> But it is essentially making the damage shield more convenient, which
> sounds like an advantage to me. I dunno, I can see it both ways...if a
> Mentalist touched your forehead in order to control your mind, your damag=
> e
> shield wouldn't help you there.
>
A regular damage shield would hurt that mentalist. This limited one
would not hurt that mentalist?
How is not bein able to a damage shield under most of it's normal
uses an advantage?

A damage shield normally hurts anyone who make physical contact of
any kind with you, attack or not. It requires no to-hit roll and just rolls
it damage and applies it. It takes no action to do.

This limitation is keeping all of that the same, but removing the
part that lets you hurt things other than a brute force attack.
Which means something like 80% of all uses of the damage shield no
longer work.
It will no longer hurt the mentalist, it will no longer hurt a guy
with a sword (force is not being slammed in, the damage is in the cut),
it will no longer hurt the martial artist who uses a soft touch to a pressure
point, it will no longer hurt the villian who grabs you and throws you
across the room, etc...

All it will now hurt is the guy who head on slams a piece of himself
into you. Such as a fist, foot, sometimes the point of a sword (situational
GM call), maybe the grabber who squeezes, and similar applications.

Sounds like a straightfoward limitation.

Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Various questions
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:43:02 -0800 (PST)
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> > Since it's basically a one-shot power, I might not charge for it at
> all,
> and allow the character to just do it based on having earth control.
> Basically, what I was saying in that phrase was that I'd likely rule as
> your GM did.<
>
> > It just occurred to me, in fact, that having an Entangle with AE: Line
> or (more likely) AE: Any, defined as a barrier, could do this just fine, as
>
> I'm not sure why you're suggesting Entangle instead of Force Wall. Is it=
>
Why not just get X" Swimming with a limitation of surface of the water
only. Special effect is a column of earth rising up out of the ocean floor.
If you're trying to move in water, that's the best option. If the
effect desired was different (I'm working from memory as the actual effect
desired was removed from the message) then it may be something else...

Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing

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Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 13:55:13 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Brick "Stupid Tricks"
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Brian Wong
> How is not bein able to a damage shield under most of it's normal
uses an advantage?<

Because a normal damage shield (especially the "Always On" variety) can be
quite an inconvenience in normal life (especially if you're always on
fire!). By slapping on that limitation, you can conduct more of a normal
life, while still getting some of the advantages of a damage shield in
combat. It's limiting in combat, advantageous elsewhere.

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Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 13:21:22 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Brick "Stupid Tricks"
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On Thu, 12 Mar 1998, qts wrote:

> "Continuous Uncontrolled" automatically mandates "every segment".

No, I don't think so.

For area effect attacks, under Continuous, it notes that the effect
persists on "the segments between phases" (bad language IMHO, because
there are no segments between phases). Still, this does not mean that the
attack takes effect every segment, rather it means that anyone entering
the area is affected.

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Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 14:35:31 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Various questions
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Brian Wong
> Why not just get X" Swimming with a limitation of surface of the
water
only. Special effect is a column of earth rising up out of the ocean floor.
If you're trying to move in water, that's the best option. If the
effect desired was different (I'm working from memory as the actual effect
desired was removed from the message) then it may be something else...<

That might work, but it would need to be Usable By Others and Area Effect
for the example I described. I didn't think of Swimming because it's not a
power I'd use on a regular basis...it's such a special case that I thought
it might be better to have a broader power which could also be used to
simulate this effect.

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Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 13:38:00 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Brick "Stupid Tricks"
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On Thu, 12 Mar 1998, qts wrote:

> On Thu, 12 Mar 1998 13:21:22 -0600 (CST), Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:
>
> >On Thu, 12 Mar 1998, qts wrote:
> >
> >> "Continuous Uncontrolled" automatically mandates "every segment".
> >
> >No, I don't think so.
> >
> >For area effect attacks, under Continuous, it notes that the effect
> >persists on "the segments between phases" (bad language IMHO, because
> >there are no segments between phases). Still, this does not mean that the
> >attack takes effect every segment, rather it means that anyone entering
> >the area is affected.
>
> Yes, but it's not just Continuous, it's Uncontrolled. Therefore it has
> nothing to do with the SPD of the attacker or defender.

Okay, I'll check my BBB when I get home.

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From: JJP3337 <JJP3337@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 14:40:48 EST
Subject: Hand Attack
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I have always used HA as an addition to normal physical damage for characters
like martial artists or skilled swordfighters using their blade flat ect. but
if I were to use the str with limitiations route these mostly skilled
characters would become much more expensive (Dex is expensive enough for
Martial artists lets not go adding str too). The effect is especially useful
for people skilled in forms of combat that use things like bats and well
placed hand blows...what would my Prof. Moriarty do to represent his years of
experience at fisticuffs and fighting with his cane, he'd be S.O.L. against
the P.C. supers thats what he'd be....if you fear that it is getting out of
hand put limitations like stun only or vrs non metallic armor only
ect....remember a P.C. is always more than happy to save himself a few points
as long as your not destroying his or her concept. As for the cost of str vs
HA I'd have to say it was done this way to benefit mostly skill based
character show are not building E.C.'s or Frameworks and have little way of
reducing costs other that limitations....if you find a character putting HA on
a Framework in a supers campaign kick them in the butt...not only are they
severly killing the point of frameworks by putting such a low cost power in it
they are also probably hoping you won't notice that 4d6 autofire AP killing
attack right next to it they bought with so many limitation it only looks like
it fits in your active point limit...


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Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 13:43:17 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Brick "Stupid Tricks"
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On Thu, 12 Mar 1998, qts wrote:

> How about buying the brick's STR with the Advantage Damage Shield?
> qts

Urg.

That takes some swallowing. Then technically, he can't use his STR anymore
unless someone touches him? And if he could, it would cost more END? This
one is kind of messy.

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Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 14:43:20 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Various questions
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Darien Phoenix Lynx
>I would prefer another choice over the suggestions presented so far, which
seem more inflexible. As I've stated before in my guidelines for elemental
controllers, I would expect two powers in your Earth Control EC: Change
Environment and Suppress. Certainly we need an expanded Change Environment
(Cosmetic, Minor, Major)--but I would consider most of the "unusual"
applications of your earth control power part of change environment. More
precisely, for unusual applications of your powers which you don't have
explicitly defined, CE becomes a good reason to smile upon them.<

This is nice... Change Environment has never been a common power in any
game I've been involved with, but from what I've seen on this list, it's
incredibly useful. I'm not quite sold on Suppress, though--I can see how
it would be handy in some cases, but it doesn't seem like it would be used
nearly as often as CE.

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Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 14:49:40 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Martial Artists
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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First, I should say that I don't have Ninja Hero or The Ultimate Martial
Artist...one of my players has NH but I've only given it a brief glance.
Anyway, using the BBB, it seems to me that MAs all do the same thing (such
as Martial Block), with minor and usually inconsequential special effect
differences. It seems to me that what makes an MA unique is what you wrap
around the MA, such as an energy-boosted punch or clinging or whatever.
I'm sure that this is a simplistic view of an MA, and I'm hoping some of
you can get me more excited about all the varieties of Martial Artists.

By the way, what's the difference between NH and TUMA? Why are there two
books? Was TUMA supposed to replace NH? Which one is better? All I know
about NH is that it has a maneuver called Sweep that one of my players fell
in love with.

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Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 14:01:16 -0600 (CST)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Brick "Stupid Tricks"
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On Thu, 12 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote:

> Message text written by Brian Wong
> > How is not bein able to a damage shield under most of it's normal
> uses an advantage?<
>
> Because a normal damage shield (especially the "Always On" variety) can be
> quite an inconvenience in normal life (especially if you're always on
> fire!). By slapping on that limitation, you can conduct more of a normal
> life, while still getting some of the advantages of a damage shield in
> combat. It's limiting in combat, advantageous elsewhere.

I don't recall 'always on' being specified.

If the limitation 'only up to damage done by the attack' is applied to the
damage shield (a sort of damage-reflection attack), it is certainly a
limitation - a normal damage shield could do 8d6 of damage when hit with a
4d6 punch, whereas this one couldn't.

If 'always on' is combined with that, then yes, there's a bit of abuse
there. But remember that in the text of 'always on' it specifies that it
must be a drawback for the character - obviously, this 'hard skin' is not,
so it should just be bought as 0 end, persistant.

There are still drawbacks to having this - surgery would be nigh
impossible, for example - but it'd probably be a -0 limitation if
anything.

J

"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"

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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 98 20:02:40
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Autofire
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On Wed, 11 Mar 1998 16:58:43 -0800, Rook wrote:

>> > Also remember that Reduced END on an Autofire attack costs double, and
>> Autofire on any attack that works against defenses other than PD or ED is
>> an extra +1 Advantage.<
>>
>> I don't think I knew either of those rules.... I haven't cracked open the
>> BBB in quite some time (I'm just coming off of another system and am
>
> He's right. Now I have to go back and double check a few characters to see
>if I did it right. I use heromaker so I imagine it did it for me...
> But it's in the 4th paragraph of autofire.

Only the doubled cost of Reduced End, not the '+1 vs other defenses'
which is in the 6th paragraph [end nitpick]

qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Darien Phoenix Lynx\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 98 20:07:14
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Brick "Stupid Tricks"
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On Thu, 12 Mar 1998 11:27:14 -0600 (CST), Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:

>On Thu, 12 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote:
>
>> Message text written by Brian Wong
>> > How is not bein able to a damage shield under most of it's normal
>> uses an advantage?<
>>
>> Because a normal damage shield (especially the "Always On" variety) can be
>> quite an inconvenience in normal life (especially if you're always on
>> fire!). By slapping on that limitation, you can conduct more of a normal
>> life, while still getting some of the advantages of a damage shield in
>> combat. It's limiting in combat, advantageous elsewhere.
>
>40 1D6 RKA,Always On(-1/2),Continuous(+1),Uncontrolled(+1/2),
> Damage Shield(+1/2),0 END(+1/2),Sticky(+1/2)
>
>Oh yeah, when deciding on what phases a continuous attack takes place, I
>let the player decide on creation whether it is:
>
>a) on his character's phases with his natural speed
>b) on his target's phases
>c) on the average campaign speed's phases
>
>Special effects usually dictate (b) or (c). Being on fire is probably (c).
>Poisons and drugs are usually (b). Very rarely do I allow (a), the BBB's
>official position.

"Continuous Uncontrolled" automatically mandates "every segment".


qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 98 20:10:16
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Brick "Stupid Tricks"
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On Thu, 12 Mar 1998 14:01:16 -0600 (CST), Sakura wrote:

>On Thu, 12 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote:
>
>> Message text written by Brian Wong
>> > How is not bein able to a damage shield under most of it's normal
>> uses an advantage?<
>>
>> Because a normal damage shield (especially the "Always On" variety) can be
>> quite an inconvenience in normal life (especially if you're always on
>> fire!). By slapping on that limitation, you can conduct more of a normal
>> life, while still getting some of the advantages of a damage shield in
>> combat. It's limiting in combat, advantageous elsewhere.
>
>I don't recall 'always on' being specified.
>
>If the limitation 'only up to damage done by the attack' is applied to the
>damage shield (a sort of damage-reflection attack), it is certainly a
>limitation - a normal damage shield could do 8d6 of damage when hit with a
>4d6 punch, whereas this one couldn't.
>
>If 'always on' is combined with that, then yes, there's a bit of abuse
>there. But remember that in the text of 'always on' it specifies that it
>must be a drawback for the character - obviously, this 'hard skin' is not,
>so it should just be bought as 0 end, persistant.

How about buying the brick's STR with the Advantage Damage Shield?
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 98 20:15:39
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: GMing tips :Accessori
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On Wed, 11 Mar 1998 08:18:38 -0500, David Fair wrote:

>On 3/10/98 2:01 PM Darien Phoenix Lynx (chip@owlnet.rice.edu) Said:
>
>>I'm going to find a way to kick my player's butts with a speed 1 hero.
>>Although I'm not really sure how to go about it.
>
>THe only thing I can say her is: AutoFire Area Affect attacks.

Continuous, 0 END too.

qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 98 20:28:27
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Using HERO for nefarious purposes... (Muhahahaha!)
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On Thu, 12 Mar 1998 18:15:33 -0500 (EST), THE MAD HARLEQUIN wrote:

> Has anyone here ever seen a live action role playing game based
>around the HERO system? If so, is there any published information on the
>core rules and combat resolution system?
> If there were a live action verson of HERO, what would need to
>be done to modify the current system to make it easier to run as a live
>action game (i.e. simplification of the rules)?

I did it once several years back for a live action game me and some friends ran at
Technicon. My once piece of advice would be "Don't do it." I love the Hero system,
but it doesn't scale down well. If you are determined to have a kind of Heroesque feel
to you mechanics, try Fuzion scaled down to it's lowest complexity level (even then,
you're probably still looking at more "rules" than I like in a LARP rule-set).

-=>John Desmarais


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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 98 20:38:14
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
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Subject: Re: Twisted Scenario Ideas
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On Wed, 11 Mar 1998 17:49:10 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:

> Here's an idea I thought up this afternoon. It's a good scenario for a
>Dark Champions campaign, with a really cruel twist.
> Suppose the PCs are in a situation where they need to learn the
>top-secret security codes used in a now-discontinued but extremely
>sensitive project by the government of a foreign power. For the sake of
>argument, let's say that the government of the People's Republic of China
>did some biological warfare research in the 1970s, but some terrorist group
>(like VIPER or VOICE) has stolen it and is preparing to release the virus
>for its own vile purposes. The Chinese are understandably reluctant to
>even admit that such research exists, and so are not forthcoming with the
>information.
> However, the PCs, working through the Internet, are able to get past
>security measures in the Chinese government's computers -- up to a point.
>They need an extremely long access code to get the actual information that
>will enable them to neutralize the virus.

Up to here I'd have suggested that they 'suggest' to the Chinese Govt
that they co-operate, stressing the resultant good publicity ("Chinese
antidote saves Gotham!"), even to the extent of sending a Chinese Hero
(possibly fake - good plot here) over.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:44:53 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Martial Artists
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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At 02:49 PM 3/12/98 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>First, I should say that I don't have Ninja Hero or The Ultimate Martial
>Artist...one of my players has NH but I've only given it a brief glance.
>Anyway, using the BBB, it seems to me that MAs all do the same thing (such
>as Martial Block), with minor and usually inconsequential special effect
>differences. It seems to me that what makes an MA unique is what you wrap
>around the MA, such as an energy-boosted punch or clinging or whatever.
>I'm sure that this is a simplistic view of an MA, and I'm hoping some of
>you can get me more excited about all the varieties of Martial Artists.
>
Well, one of the best parts of NH, expanded in UMH, are the
manuever-building rules, so your Martial Artist can have attacks, defenses,
etc which no one else does.
>By the way, what's the difference between NH and TUMA? Why are there two
>books? Was TUMA supposed to replace NH? Which one is better? All I know
>about NH is that it has a maneuver called Sweep that one of my players fell
>in love with.
>
>

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From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Martial Artists
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At 02:49 PM 3/12/98 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>First, I should say that I don't have Ninja Hero or The Ultimate Martial
>Artist...one of my players has NH but I've only given it a brief glance.
>Anyway, using the BBB, it seems to me that MAs all do the same thing (such
>as Martial Block), with minor and usually inconsequential special effect
>differences. It seems to me that what makes an MA unique is what you wrap
>around the MA, such as an energy-boosted punch or clinging or whatever.
>I'm sure that this is a simplistic view of an MA, and I'm hoping some of
>you can get me more excited about all the varieties of Martial Artists.
>
Well, one of the best parts of NH, expanded in UMH, are the
manuever-building rules, so your Martial Artist can have attacks, defenses,
etc which no one else does.
>By the way, what's the difference between NH and TUMA? Why are there two
>books? Was TUMA supposed to replace NH? Which one is better? All I know
>about NH is that it has a maneuver called Sweep that one of my players fell
>in love with.
>
>

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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Darien Phoenix Lynx\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 98 20:58:14
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Brick "Stupid Tricks"
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On Thu, 12 Mar 1998 13:21:22 -0600 (CST), Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:

>On Thu, 12 Mar 1998, qts wrote:
>
>> "Continuous Uncontrolled" automatically mandates "every segment".
>
>No, I don't think so.
>
>For area effect attacks, under Continuous, it notes that the effect
>persists on "the segments between phases" (bad language IMHO, because
>there are no segments between phases). Still, this does not mean that the
>attack takes effect every segment, rather it means that anyone entering
>the area is affected.

Yes, but it's not just Continuous, it's Uncontrolled. Therefore it has
nothing to do with the SPD of the attacker or defender.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 16:13:20 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Martial Artists
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On Thu, 12 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote:

> First, I should say that I don't have Ninja Hero or The Ultimate Martial
> Artist...one of my players has NH but I've only given it a brief glance.
> Anyway, using the BBB, it seems to me that MAs all do the same thing (such
> as Martial Block), with minor and usually inconsequential special effect
> differences.

This really depends on how serious you are about MA in your game. In a
superhero game, the type of detail given in NH or UMA probably isn't too
important. But, if your game is going to be set in the martial arts
genre, then you might want the maneuvers, powers and skills given in UMA.
Me, I like to work with real world martial arts for my characters, and use
both book s extensively.

> It seems to me that what makes an MA unique is what you wrap
> around the MA, such as an energy-boosted punch or clinging or whatever.
> I'm sure that this is a simplistic view of an MA, and I'm hoping some of
> you can get me more excited about all the varieties of Martial Artists.

Well, like I said, it depends on the genre. If you want to build and play
'super-martial artists' ala Dragonball Z, Street Fighter II, or any number
of HK action films, then getting UMA isn't a bad idea, although most of
the powers will come right out of the BBB. One nice thing in UMA is that
many martial arts are lsited with 'presumed powers' ie. the sort of powers
a 'master' could perform or legendary heros could use. Real nice if you
want to build super-powered cahracters.

> By the way, what's the difference between NH and TUMA? Why are there two
> books? Was TUMA supposed to replace NH? Which one is better? All I know
> about NH is that it has a maneuver called Sweep that one of my players fell
> in love with.

UMA was supposed to intro the Ultimate series and acted as an addon and
replacement for NH. A lot of campaign stuff in NH was removed and
repalced with expanded material on character building, equipment and
styles. I have both, and find boith to be equally useful.

BTW, Sweep is found in the BBB, I think. It just got a lot of attention
in NH and UMA.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
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Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 16:14:06 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Various questions
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Darien Phoenix Lynx
>Perhaps. But suppress offers you a good mechanic for using your own
element to defeat another element. It often comes up, and it can make
battles between SFX in play more interesting. Considering this earth
example:<

Okay, you've convinced me. I know one of my PCs will be a light
controller...got any Suppress examples for that one?

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Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 16:19:52 -0500 (EST)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Martial Artists
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>First, I should say that I don't have Ninja Hero or The Ultimate Martial
>Artist...one of my players has NH but I've only given it a brief glance.
>Anyway, using the BBB, it seems to me that MAs all do the same thing (such
>as Martial Block), with minor and usually inconsequential special effect
>differences.

Well, there are a few more variables to be considered, like combat levels
and extra DC. On the same points, you could have very high combat levels or
do lots of damage but miss a lot more.

> It seems to me that what makes an MA unique is what you wrap
>around the MA, such as an energy-boosted punch or clinging or whatever.

You really need to get ahold of TUMA or NH. TUMA especially lists the
'special' abilities either demonstrated 'real world' (like autofire punches)
or legendarily attached to such a discipline (kung fu death blows, etc.).
Also, most arts are made unique through the available maneuvers - Sumo
Wrestling, for example, offers Root and Shove maneuvers (you won't find in
the BBB), but doesn't offer Flying Dodges. Aikido offers a lot of throws and
joint locks but no high-damage maneuvers, and so on.

>By the way, what's the difference between NH and TUMA? Why are there two
>books? Was TUMA supposed to replace NH? Which one is better? All I know
>about NH is that it has a maneuver called Sweep that one of my players fell
>in love with.

TUMA was, IIRC, to replace NH, but the two sort of end up complimenting each
other. Buy both if you get the chance.

TUMA has more martial arts and more complete rules for generating martial
arts. NH does a very good job of 'stratifying' martial arts (and attendant
super-abilities) for various levels of 'reality' - so you know what's
appropriate for heroic martial arts adventure (say, a Jackie Chan movie),
and what's more suited to wild martial arts (most Wuxia films or Big Trouble
in Little China), and what's pure superheroic (arcade-style chi fireballs,
etc.).

In general, TUMA has more. More rules, more styles, and more 'useless'
material (unfortunately). Note that NH actually has a couple of adventures
plus characters, which TUMA lacks. HERO made up for this to a degree with
Watcher of the Dragon, but that's a whole other book...

Anyway. If you're making a martial artist PC, you'll want TUMA more than NH.
But if you're going to run a martial arts based campaign, you want NH over TUMA.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Darien Phoenix Lynx\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 98 21:23:35
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Brick "Stupid Tricks"
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On Thu, 12 Mar 1998 13:43:17 -0600 (CST), Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:

>On Thu, 12 Mar 1998, qts wrote:
>
>> How about buying the brick's STR with the Advantage Damage Shield?
>> qts
>
>Urg.
>
>That takes some swallowing. Then technically, he can't use his STR anymore
>unless someone touches him?

Not so - one of the advantages of DS is that you can touch someone and
have the DS affect them.

> And if he could, it would cost more END? This
> one is kind of messy.

But worth it?



qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Darien Phoenix Lynx\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 98 21:29:08
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Brick "Stupid Tricks"
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On Thu, 12 Mar 1998 13:38:00 -0600 (CST), Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:

>On Thu, 12 Mar 1998, qts wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 12 Mar 1998 13:21:22 -0600 (CST), Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:
>>
>> >On Thu, 12 Mar 1998, qts wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Continuous Uncontrolled" automatically mandates "every segment".
>> >
>> >No, I don't think so.
>> >
>> >For area effect attacks, under Continuous, it notes that the effect
>> >persists on "the segments between phases" (bad language IMHO, because
>> >there are no segments between phases). Still, this does not mean that the
>> >attack takes effect every segment, rather it means that anyone entering
>> >the area is affected.
>>
>> Yes, but it's not just Continuous, it's Uncontrolled. Therefore it has
>> nothing to do with the SPD of the attacker or defender.
>
>Okay, I'll check my BBB when I get home.

Don't bother - I'm only half right. Uncontrolled acts on the attacker's
phase. BUT anyone entering the AOE between the attacker's phases gets
affected (p 99)

Example: an Uncontrolled AOE attack is acting on SPD 3 (segments 4, 8,
and 12). A SPD 4 (acting on segments 3, 6, 9, and 12) entering the AOE
on segment 6 gets affected on segments 6 and 8 before he his next
phase.

qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 13:57:45 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Various questions
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At 12:49 PM 3/12/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>Message text written by Bob Greenwade
>> Since it's basically a one-shot power, I might not charge for it at all,
>and allow the character to just do it based on having earth control.
>Basically, what I was saying in that phrase was that I'd likely rule as
>your GM did.<
>
>Ah, okay. This leads to another question... How often do GMs allow "new
>powers" like this that aren't paid for on the character sheet but which
>make sense with the character's special effects? I don't think I've ever
>done this, but maybe I should start...it might encourage some creative
>thinking.

I actually never have, but then again I've rarely put PCs into such
unusual situations like this. I'd be willing, though, under the right
circumstances; however, I might require the PC to have a sort of "Power
Applications" Skill (like what Fuzion does) to execute these abilities.

>> It just occurred to me, in fact, that having an Entangle with AE: Line
>or (more likely) AE: Any, defined as a barrier, could do this just fine, as
>long as the bottom of the ocean floor is within the character's range. All
>he'd have to do is stack each Entangle's hexes on top of each other, and
>each Entangle on top of the previous one until he got to the top. And an
>earth-mover would be a good candidate for such a power.<
>
>I'm not sure why you're suggesting Entangle instead of Force Wall. Is it
>because Entangle doesn't have to be maintained? Other than that, I don't
>see any difference in this case. Anyway, your method doesn't take into
>account the fact that this big column of earth is moving like a wave, with
>the characters riding the crest. To make successive columns using
>Entangles wouldn't be practical unless you bought it down to zero END.

I must have misread your account; I thought the character was just
bringing up a column of earth from the ocean floor for everyone to stand on
until help could arrive, or some other solution could be devised.
The reason for Entangle vs Force Wall isn't just because the Entangle
doesn't have to be maintained; it's because AE Entangle is already
definable as a lasting barrier that has BODY (as opposed to FW, which has
only DEF).

>Back to the Force Wall/Entangle thing...it seems to me that an Entangle
>with AE:Line, defined as a barrier, could always take the place of a Force
>Wall. You wouldn't be able to form a dome with it, but the END savings
>would more than make up for this. This seems like a "dirty trick" that I'm
>not sure I'd allow, but it certainly would be effective. You could raise
>barriers all over the place since you wouldn't need to save END for barrier
>maintenance.

Yeah, a Barrier Entangle can tactically be used like a Force Wall, but
there are a couple of other factors balancing out your points:
1. For 60 points, I get 12 DEF on the Force Wall. For those same 60
points, I get 3 DEF, 3 BODY on a Barrier bought as Area Effect Entangle.
This is actually less than half the utility, since attacks doing 4 BODY
will destroy the Barrier in just three blows, but will *never* get through
the Force Wall (and wouldn't even if it was a 6 DEF Force Wall).
2. The villains may have to destroy the Barrier to get to me, but I also
have to get through it to get to them. Entangles (defined as Barriers or
otherwise) don't go down when I want them to, they stay until destroyed.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 17:03:20 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Martial Artists
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Michael Surbrook
>This really depends on how serious you are about MA in your game. In a
superhero game, the type of detail given in NH or UMA probably isn't too
important. But, if your game is going to be set in the martial arts
genre, then you might want the maneuvers, powers and skills given in UMA.
Me, I like to work with real world martial arts for my characters, and use
both book s extensively.<

That's my concern...Martial Arts won't play any special part in my
campaign. There will be MAs for sure, but they won't be any more prevalent
than any other type of character. That's why I sorta cringed when one of
my players bought NH, because I knew he would want to start using rules
from it and I don't think we need that level of detail.

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Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 17:08:44 -0500
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net>
Subject: Re: Twisted Scenario Ideas
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On Wed, 11 Mar 1998 17:49:10 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:

> Here's an idea I thought up this afternoon. It's a good scenario
> for a Dark Champions campaign, with a really cruel twist.

Man. that is evil. I love it. :)

Now, to resolve the problem that the 2 people both know the SAME half of
the code...

I can see a couple of different directions to go with this:

A. the obvious - the 2 chinese guys both know the same half of the
code.. but one of them DOES know of somebody who DOES have the other
half. Finding/rescuing/convincing that person can be an adventure in
itself.

B. The PCs can find out thru various means that there IS someone else
who knows the complete code. This can be: a former russian spy who is
now a superhero/supervillian/politician/civilian. Or someone in the US
government who can't 'officially' admit that they have this
information. Or another terrorist organization who bought/stole the
code years ago.

C. The PCs can 'convince' someone from within Viper/VOICE to help them.

A truly evil scenario Bob, I loved it.


Todd

--
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Todd Hanson Minnesota: Land of two seasons:
BadTodd@dacmail.net winter is coming, winter is here.
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Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 17:13:42 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Martial Artists
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On Thu, 12 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote:

> Message text written by Michael Surbrook
> >This really depends on how serious you are about MA in your game. In a
> superhero game, the type of detail given in NH or UMA probably isn't too
> important. But, if your game is going to be set in the martial arts
> genre, then you might want the maneuvers, powers and skills given in UMA.
> Me, I like to work with real world martial arts for my characters, and use
> both book s extensively.<
>
> That's my concern...Martial Arts won't play any special part in my
> campaign. There will be MAs for sure, but they won't be any more prevalent
> than any other type of character. That's why I sorta cringed when one of
> my players bought NH, because I knew he would want to start using rules
> from it and I don't think we need that level of detail.

Then don't. It's as simple as that.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Brick Tricks
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "KF" == Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net> writes:

KF> Ripping up a chunk of concrete, peice of a wall, etc and using it as a
KF> sheild
KF> Force Wall with apprpriate lims.

I would rather see this as an Entangle than Force Wall, if only because
walls have DEF and BODY, as does Entangle; Force Wall does not. Doing it
with Entangle also allows rolling up an opponent in concrete or whatever.
It should probably have limited range, and a small degree of Variable SFX.

KF> Breaking foci, peeling off powered armor, etc,
KF> Dispel vs Breakable foci with various limits to taste

That is just a special effect for exterting Strength against Foci, I
think. Six of one, if you have the points to burn. :)

KF> Limited Tunneling can make a good power for ripping effortlesly through
KF> the bank vaults and things like that.

Oh, yeah.

[...]

KF> Super Recovery: Aid to stats, any below normal self only. The bricks
KF> powerful body can shake off debilating effects in a moment. Could also
KF> be a justification for Power defense

I like using Damage Reduction for this kind of effect as well. By the by,
GM's discretion: Regeneration may be used to regenerate "damaged"
Characteristics.

KF> Long Distance Throw:Flight UAO, must grab target first. Defense would
KF> be flight, extreme weight or breaking the grab.

By "extreme" one would consider the same restriction on Martial Throw and
Grab and Throw maneuvers: if your pushed strength (pushing is not actually
required) would be insufficient to lift the victim, you cannot throw him.

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Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: "Warren E Henderson III" <warren@newenglandpc.net>
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 98 22:56:03
Reply-To: "Warren E Henderson III" <warren@newenglandpc.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Moon Knight
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On Thu, 12 Mar 1998 21:45:20 -0600, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin
wrote:

>Perhaps I'm being dense here (wouldn't be the first time) but what does the
>Egyptian mythology connection have to do with how long the title ran?

Nothing. English is such a wonderfully slopply language. Moon Knight
is the character I dimly remember from the mid eighties and I thought
it was still a current title. That would make it 11 to 15 years in
publication.


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: "Warren E Henderson III" <warren@newenglandpc.net>
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 98 22:58:38
Reply-To: "Warren E Henderson III" <warren@newenglandpc.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Moon Knight
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On Thu, 12 Mar 1998 22:15:19 -0500 (EST), John and Ron Prins wrote:

>I only followed the original run of Moon Knight up to about #30, but from
>that and that I've gleaned from TOHOTMU, Moon Knight (Marc Spector) was a
>mercinary working for a man named Bushman. Bushman was too brutal, and when
>Marc protested, Bushman 'killed' him. Later, in a shrine to the Egyptian god
>of the moon (Khonshu), Marc 'revived' (whether or not he was dead is subject
>to debate). Marc took it all as a sign, yadda yadda.

Yah, thats the one I was thinking of. It was pretty neat to have a
(more or less) average guy Hero. I had the first 10 or so.


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 18:15:33 -0500 (EST)
From: THE MAD HARLEQUIN <ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Using HERO for nefarious purposes... (Muhahahaha!)
Cc: ravanos <ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
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Has anyone here ever seen a live action role playing game based
around the HERO system? If so, is there any published information on the
core rules and combat resolution system?
If there were a live action verson of HERO, what would need to
be done to modify the current system to make it easier to run as a live
action game (i.e. simplification of the rules)?
-Jason


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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 15:33:11 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Using HERO for nefarious purposes... (Muhahahaha!)
Cc: ravanos <ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
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At 06:15 PM 3/12/98 -0500, THE MAD HARLEQUIN wrote:
> Has anyone here ever seen a live action role playing game based
>around the HERO system?

Man, that's a scary thought.

"Good god! You pushed him out of the third story of the building!"
"Don't worry. According to the falling damage rules, he'll barely be stunned!"

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Michael Sprague <msprague@eznet.net>
Subject: RE: cybernetics
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 20:39:41 -0500
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> The impression I got was that it was designed to let you use the
> Hero System in RoleMaster's Cyberpunk world, rather than as a
> generic approach to the genre.

It was certainly intended to work _with_ RoleMaster's Cyberpunk world ...
which was as 'generic' as any other published world. I didn't think that
was bad, since I purchased the Cyberpunk book and the two meshed very
nicely.

When your playing the Hero System, you can easily adapt any campaign world
... so long as you don't get hung up in trying to do exact rules
conversions. The text is the important part. When we were playing
Cyberhero, we adapted a bit of Shadowrun (not the variety of species
though), a bit of Cyberpunk, and a bit from movies and books we had read.

Never did find any "netrunning" rules we were happy with, so we didn't
emphasize that aspect (not to mention that they guys I played with were
UNIX nuts who based everything on the way UNIX worked at the time). Not
that I am against UNIX mind you, I do like it, but I can and do use other
systems, I just thought that computers for Cyberpunk should have been a bit
more fanciful. :-)

~ Mike

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X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 18:04:37 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: LARPing up
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Maybe Im too jaded but what exactly is the pull of live action role playing?
I have enough problem with toeing the line of geekitude with role playing as
it is (chuckle), especially in the 'no combat' sessions, but walkin around
saying "I use my power blast on you!!" just ummm, well I liked it when I
was 12...

----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Michael Sprague <msprague@eznet.net>
Subject: RE: GMing tips :Length of Combat
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 21:13:43 -0500
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I'm on both sides of the fence on this one. :-) I prefer role-playing to
combat ... not that they are mutually exclusive, but you do get more
role-playing out of non-combat time.

I have played in groups where Combat was the point of getting together to
play ... and that got boring real quick. I have also been in groups where
combat was rare ... and that got boring after a while too, though it took
longer.

When I was GM'ing Justice Inc., I went a little to far on the no combat
side of things. After all, the players had told me they were a lot more
interested in "role-playing over combat." I started sensing frustration on
their parts though, especially in the comments made when we would break up
after a session. I starting wondering if I was doing a poor job as a GM
and thought about bagging the game ... but everyone said no, and that they
really enjoyed it and wanted to continue on.

I also noted that after a good combat session, they went home acting like
they had a great time. So I started going for a balance. I didn't need a
big combat every session, but so long as I had a little one ... even if it
ended after 10 to 20 minutes of real time ... everyone seemed much more
into the game and a lot happier. This has been my formula for success ever
since.

Of course, the group of people your with does make a difference, so your
mileage will vary.

I also don't believe you can generically say women don't like combat. In
several different groups and games I have been in, from Fantasy Hero to
Star Hero, often, it's been a woman who has been the most blood thirsty in
the group. In many of the groups I have games with, there have been women
players (and I've been married to one of them for seven years now). In
general, I have seen the same mix of types of players in women as in guys.

~ Mike

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Michael Sprague <msprague@eznet.net>
Subject: RE: Hudson City software
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 21:38:10 -0500
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I also purchased this package. I think it was a bit overpriced, and I
ended up never using it.

First, it's a DOS program ... not a big deal, especially for the time it
came out. However, it requires the use of EMS (memory). This was very
annoying, because I had to set up a special boot system, as I had better
uses for my memory normally. The use of EMS at that time was already
obsolete, except on legacy programs.

But I get ahead of myself. First, the program would not install and run,
well, it would install, but not run. It turned out that one of the things
it did was run a batch file that used DOS's DIR command, and redirect the
output to a file. It apparently used this file to know where certain
system files were. Whoever had written this batch file knew little about
DOS, and had obviously never actually tried it. You ended up with it
looking for files in C:\Hudson\Hud1.cty.cty, or something like that. Once
I edited the file, I was almost ready to go.

The other annoying quirk I ran into was that you had to install it in the
root directory of your drive for it to work. I rarely install programs
into the root directory.

Once I installed it in the root directory on my drive, edited one of the
files, and made sure I had EMS available, I was at last able to run the
program. Time flew by in they city. After some work, I got the passage to
time to slow down ... but the default setting was way to fast. If memory
serves it was hard to find the exit for the program. You had to pull down
a menu item that wasn't even remotely relevant to find it.

I was very disappointed to find out that it was all loaded for AD&D
characters and contained all sorts of D&D charts (imported, no doubt. from
KingsPort, a Fantasy city they also put out). Yes, you could change it to
what ever game system you wanted ... but the system made no real reference
to any of it, and you had to type everything you wanted into the system.
For software that was advertised as being for and compatible with the Hero
System, I found this rather unacceptable!

Once everything was set up though, it pretty much ran as advertised, and if
you were willing to put a bit of work into it, it would have made a good
GM's companion. I have never found the time to get it set up for the Hero
System though.

I wrote a review on it to this list, when it first came out (containing
much of the above, but in more detail), but was quickly told that I must
have done something wrong. There were several people were using it as
advertised. A lot more people had the exact same problems I had though.

If you can find it cheap and have some time to tinker, and have a little
DOS knowledge (easier under Windows 95 though), you might find this a good
program. It's not worth the original price though, and does not live up to
what it was advertised to be.

~ Mike

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 22:15:19 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Moon Knight
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>On Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:32:51 -0500 (EST), John and Ron Prins wrote:
>
>>Marlene was, without a doubt, a Follower, not a DNPC. She was far too
>>helpful to be a DNPC - she even saves Moon Knight's life a couple times.
>
>I has been awhile since I looked at comics. Does this Hero have some
>connection to Egyptian mythology? If so it must be a farly long
>running comic

I only followed the original run of Moon Knight up to about #30, but from
that and that I've gleaned from TOHOTMU, Moon Knight (Marc Spector) was a
mercinary working for a man named Bushman. Bushman was too brutal, and when
Marc protested, Bushman 'killed' him. Later, in a shrine to the Egyptian god
of the moon (Khonshu), Marc 'revived' (whether or not he was dead is subject
to debate). Marc took it all as a sign, yadda yadda.

Later on (after I stopped reading), MK has a big identity crisis and gives
up on the superhero biz (not surprising, considering he was maintaining 4
identities as part of his 'work'). Then Khonshu actually intervenes to get
him back into the superhero biz as 'The Fist of Khonshu' to do battle with
the minions of Anubis (Khonshu's nemesis). To that end MK finally got a
legitimate super power, namely the fact that his strength varied with the
phase of the moon. In HERO terms, during the new moon he was probably 15-18
STR, and went up to probably STR 30 (you'll pardon me if I don't drag out my
books - he may have been stronger).

Moon Knight went through at least 2 good long runs as a comic (possibly 3;
didn't they just restart it?). The first run was an excellent comic for
several reasons; Moon Knight had a lot of support personnel, Moon Knight was
nothing more (really) than a trained normal - 'exceptional' thugs could go
toe to toe with him and last, and Moon Knight's nemeses were pretty cool
(Bushman, Midnight Man, Morpheus), and he had by far the funkiest
helicopters ever built. MK is the ideal example for a street level
superheroic campaign.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

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X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 21:45:20 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Moon Knight
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At 11:00 PM 3/11/98, Warren E Henderson III wrote:
>On Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:32:51 -0500 (EST), John and Ron Prins wrote:
>
>>Marlene was, without a doubt, a Follower, not a DNPC. She was far too
>>helpful to be a DNPC - she even saves Moon Knight's life a couple times.
>
>I has been awhile since I looked at comics. Does this Hero have some
>connection to Egyptian mythology? If so it must be a farly long
>running comic

Perhaps I'm being dense here (wouldn't be the first time) but what does the
Egyptian mythology connection have to do with how long the title ran?

In any case: Moon Knight first appeared in "Werewolf By Night" #32 (August
1975), was a featured solo character in "Marvel Spotlight" the following
year, made frequent appearances in "Marvel Team-Up" and in his own backup
feature in "The Hulk" (the magazine, not the comic) in 1979. The actual
"Moon Knight" title didn't appear until 1980, if I'm not mistaken.

Moon Knight, like most comic characters, has been subjected to a certain
amount of background revision, or retconning, but the essential story is
that his powers (like STR that varies with the lunar phase, in some
versions of the character) are a gift from the god Khonshu. Supposedly,
Moon Knight acts as his agent, though for the most part he's just a hero
with a mysterious benefactor; Khonshu doesn't usually involve himself much
in day-to-day affairs.

Moon Knight presents one or two interesting problems as a Hero character,
mainly his multiple identities. Sometimes these are just treated as
multiple Secret IDs in the comic, but on a couple of occasions they've
seemed to be more than that. In one story (with the Avengers, I think) the
entire group of heroes had been entangled by a powerful mental paralysis.
Moon Knight got around that by thinking "Okay, Moon Knight can't move, but
Marc Spector can." A second later, Spector was frozen by a repetition of
the mental attack. Our hero kept going by switching to his Jake Lockley
persona, and when Jake couldn't move, Steven Grant took over. I'm not
sure, but I think even Khonshu may have lent a hand that time...or perhaps
I'm confusing that with another story. It's been a long time.

Damon


----------------------
All my life I wanted to be someone, I realize now that I should have been
more specific.
-- Lily Tomlin

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 20:01:11 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Segment 12
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Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:
> I would have called that the segment 12 action. The BBB states that if
> combat begins with a surprise attack, then the attackers get a free
> segment 12. Elaborating a bit, I think we can say that anyone with the
> status "surprised" during seg. 12 spends segment 12 that way. I'm not sure
> if anyone in your example was surprised or not. It sounds like you have
> someone who could have qualified as making a surprise attack but held back
> (did her blast have "extra time?") and could be treated as having a held
> when you declare segment 12. However, although certain advantages can
> accrue outside of combat... for example "setting" on an opponent before an
> ambush, or already spending the "extra time" on a long start-up power, the
> action of attacking still takes your segment 12 action.
>
> Another way of looking at it would be to say that she went into phasing on
> her own, although nobody knew about it. So she has a held at the top of 12
> that she can use to blast the villains. I favor this approach, but it has
> to be carefully controlled or else everybody would go around carrying held
> actions.

Probarly, what should have happened is that when the villian started his
attack, she and the villian should have diced dex as per the withheld action rules.
She was waiting to see somebody move first and atempt to blast him before the
completion of the act. As per the BBB, if the hero won the dice off, she goes
first, otherwise the villians attack beats her to the punch.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 20:21:01 -0800 (PST)
X-Sender: nexus@uky.campus.mci.net
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net>
Subject: Re: Brick Tricks
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 11:05 AM 3/12/98 -0600, Bryant Berggren wrote:
>At 08:39 AM 3/12/98 -0800, Kim Foster wrote:
>>A HKA defined as "unrestrained strength" for ripping apart robots and other
>>inanimate object, going on the 4 color assumption of a CAK. Less moral
>>bricks could use this against the living....
>
>Since HKA do roughly the same body per DC as the brick's STR, and since
>inanimate objects by HERO convention ONLY have resistant defense, so that
>there's no inherent advantage is doing "killing damage" instead of "normal
>damage", one would think the brick would be better off just buying more STR,
>and pulling his punches against living beings. In other words, to simulate
>"unrestrained strength", use unrestrained STR. :]
>


There is more of chance of rolling higher body totals with killing attacks
as you are rolling fewer dice. Or so it seems from my experience. Better for
use aginst things like automatons, that may or may have additional
resistance defences. More chance of higher body and it doesn't run the risk
of going over the games DC limit.


>--
>"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
>do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
>
>
I know violence doesn't solve all problems...
But it sure feels good!
Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 23:24:56 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Moon Knight
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>Moon Knight presents one or two interesting problems as a Hero character,
>mainly his multiple identities. Sometimes these are just treated as
>multiple Secret IDs in the comic, but on a couple of occasions they've
>seemed to be more than that. In one story (with the Avengers, I think) the
>entire group of heroes had been entangled by a powerful mental paralysis.
>Moon Knight got around that by thinking "Okay, Moon Knight can't move, but
>Marc Spector can." A second later, Spector was frozen by a repetition of
>the mental attack. Our hero kept going by switching to his Jake Lockley
>persona, and when Jake couldn't move, Steven Grant took over. I'm not
>sure, but I think even Khonshu may have lent a hand that time...or perhaps
>I'm confusing that with another story. It's been a long time.

Moon Knight, even in the early run of his comic, definitely suffered from
borderline multiple personality disorder. I thought they had cleared that up
later on, but I guess not (didn't his comic become "Marc Spector, Moon
Knight"?). But what a great way to get out of a Mind Control, neh? He also
had a Psychological dependance upon the Khonshu statue he owned - it gave
him confidence or something.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Moon Knight
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-18,27-28,30-32
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 23:37:30 EST
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>Moon Knight presents one or two interesting problems as a Hero
>character,
>mainly his multiple identities. Sometimes these are just treated as
>multiple Secret IDs in the comic, but on a couple of occasions they've
>seemed to be more than that. In one story (with the Avengers, I
>think) the
>entire group of heroes had been entangled by a powerful mental
>paralysis.
>Moon Knight got around that by thinking "Okay, Moon Knight can't move,
>but
>Marc Spector can." A second later, Spector was frozen by a repetition
>of
>the mental attack. Our hero kept going by switching to his Jake
>Lockley
>persona, and when Jake couldn't move, Steven Grant took over. I'm not
>sure, but I think even Khonshu may have lent a hand that time...or
>perhaps
>I'm confusing that with another story. It's been a long time.

I don't recall that story offhand, but I know it's established that Moon
Knight has been trained to resist brainwashing. Before he got his own
title, he and the Thing teamed up against a former CIA agent and
brainwashing specialist who had gone round the bend. The sonic
brainwashing method this guy (Crossfire? I think that's the name. It
was Cross-something) was using flattened the Thing, but MK had enough
control left to tackle what's-his-name and get the sonics turned off. It
sounds like the writer of that Avenger story was trying to show how MK
fought off the mental attack.

Personally, I'd treat the different identities as Deep Covers from Dark
Champs.

Leah

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Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 04:04:06 -0600
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
Subject: 350 point character; please check it out
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Here's a character I'm designing for a 350-point Supers campaign I'll be playing in, and I'd appreciate if people could take a look at it. I'm not especially good at optimizing point expenditures.

The character was built from a "powers up" standpoint; I basically wanted a character that could take and dish out a bunch of damage. I also wanted him to be able to take a lot of punishment, both physically and magically. He also has a good DEX, PRE, and INT, so I built his skills around those stats.

Please take a look at the EC (Magical Protection powers); I'm not entirely happy with it, and the "Always On" blanket disad in particular is a bit shaky. If you don't like the EC, I'd appreciate some suggestions about how to make him physically/magically as tough as possible on as few points as possible.

I don't know squat about his background, though; I took PS: Private Investigator as an occupation so that I could justify some of his skills, but I'm clueless about the rest (which is why I mostly left his disads blank). I don't even have a name for the character yet; his working name is Marvin. (Normally I try to come up with a personality and build the character around that, but for some reason I was without inspiration this week).

The Heromaker version of the file can be found at http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/characters/marvin.cha . Thanks in advance for your help!

15 STR 5
30 DEX 60
12 CON 4
12 BODY 4
18 INT 8
10 EGO 0
23 PRE 13
20 COM 5
3 PD 0
2 ED 0
5 SPD 10
17 REC 24
24 END 0
26 STUN 0
Characteristics Cost: 133

72 Damage Class +18DC
5 Takeaway
4 Martial Block
4 Martial Dodge
3 Martial Throw
5 Passing Strike
4 M Strike
17 +10" Running,x4 Non-Combat,x2 Increased End Cost(-1/2) 4
5 EC (Magical Protection) (9),Visible(-1/4),Always On(-1/2)
10a) 0/18 Armor
10b) 18/0 Armor
10c) 27 Power Defense
10d) 29 Mental Defense
12e) Life Support,doesn't breathe,doesn't eat/sleep/excrete,safe
in vacuum/pressure,safe in radiation,safe in heat/cold,
immune to disease,immune to aging
12f) 3 BODY Regen
3 Acrobatics 15-
3 Breakfall 15-
3 Climbing 15-
3 Lockpicking 15-
3 Seduction 14-
3 Stealth 15-
3 Streetwise 14-
3 PS: Detective 13-,(INT based)
3 Conversation 14-
3 Sleight Of Hand 15-
2 Private Investigator
2 Concealed Weapon Permit

Powers Cost: 217
Total Cost: 350

Base Points: 200
10 Distinctive,"Magical glow",concealable,minor

Disadvantages Total: 10
Experience Spent: 0
Total Points: 210

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 04:06:03 -0600
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
Subject: 350 point character; please check it out
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The campaign takes place in the Champions Univers, BTW, and we are to be based in New Orleans.

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Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 07:41:11 -0500
From: TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net>
Subject: Re: 350 point character; please check it out
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>5 EC (Magical Protection) (9),Visible(-1/4),Always On(-1/2)
>10a) 0/18 Armor
>10b) 18/0 Armor
>10c) 27 Power Defense
>10d) 29 Mental Defense
>12e) Life Support,doesn't breathe,doesn't eat/sleep/excrete,safe
> in vacuum/pressure,safe in radiation,safe in heat/cold,
> immune to disease,immune to aging
>12f) 3 BODY Regen

Well, just a couple general comments. Always on doesn't apply here. All
of these powers are already persistent and there is no clear disadvantage
to them being always on. I suppose you could say because of the glow, but
since they are already persistent, that seemly would be covered by the
visible limitation.
In this case visible is almost an advantage because it is the sole
justification for the additional (-1/2) for always on.

Taking armor twice just to keep the active points at the most efficient
level also seems pretty iffy, as does the use of several special powers,
but that's a matter of what the GM would allow;). Personally, I'd not
allow this EC because it's too vague, but presumably you know your GM and
have an idea of what he'll allow.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 08:09:56 -0600
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: 350 point character; please check it out
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On 3/13/98, at 6:49 AM, TokyoMark wrote:

>>5 EC (Magical Protection) (9),Visible(-1/4),Always On(-1/2)
>>10a) 0/18 Armor
>>10b) 18/0 Armor
>>10c) 27 Power Defense
>>10d) 29 Mental Defense
>>12e) Life Support,doesn't breathe,doesn't eat/sleep/excrete,safe
>> in vacuum/pressure,safe in radiation,safe in heat/cold,
>> immune to disease,immune to aging
>>12f) 3 BODY Regen
>
>Well, just a couple general comments. Always on doesn't apply here. All
>of these powers are already persistent and there is no clear disadvantage
>to them being always on. I suppose you could say because of the glow, but
>since they are already persistent, that seemly would be covered by the
>visible limitation.
>In this case visible is almost an advantage because it is the sole
>justification for the additional (-1/2) for always on.
>
>Taking armor twice just to keep the active points at the most efficient
>level also seems pretty iffy, as does the use of several special powers,
>but that's a matter of what the GM would allow;). Personally, I'd not
>allow this EC because it's too vague, but presumably you know your GM and
>have an idea of what he'll allow.

That's the kind of commentary I was looking for. Since I posted this, I am taking somebody's suggestion and making this character an android (relatively immune to mental attacks because he doesn't have a human brain; the same to magical attacks because he's a product of high technology). The two types of armor I was justifying as being two different types of armor (insulators for the energy protection, high-resistance plastic shielding for the physical protection).

Any suggestions on how I can tighten up this EC? Or an alternative to provide lots of protection vs physical, energy, magical, and mental attacks affordably?

Guy

Uncommon Solutions...when you need a better way!
http://www.uncommonsolutions.com

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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
Subject: Moon Knight
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 06:19:49 -0800
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Here's a write-up I did of Moonie after reading the first 20 or so
issues of his third series (Marc Spector: Moon Knight), by Chuck Dixon
back in the late '80s (I think).


Val Chr Pts Pts Power Pts Skill/Perk

20 STR 10 20 Martial Arts 5 Rich
20 DEX 30 Punch +0 +2 +3d(7d)
20 CON 20 Kick -2 +1 +5d(9d) 3 Acrobatics 13-
15 BOD 10 Block +2 +2 3 Breakfall 13-
18 INT 8 Dodge +5 3 Climbing 13-
18 EGO 16 Throw +0 +1 +1d+v/5 3 Stealth 13-
20 PRE 10 3 Pilot 13-
14 COM 2 4 +1 DC
8 PD 4 18 +6 w/ Martial Arts 3 Combat Sense 13-
5 ED 1 1 KS: Martial Arts 3 Programming 13-
4 SPD 10 2 KS: Konshu 11-
8 REC 6 Running +3" 3 Streetwise 13-
30 END -5 3 High Society
13-
40 STN 5 15 +9 DEF (15- OIF:
--- Kevlar Costume) 7 +2 Overall (only
121 24 Gadget Pool under a full moon)
--- ---
88 41

Usual Gadgets: Occasional Gadgets:
6: +3 DC 2: +4 Binoculars 7: 2 Smoke
Grenades
(Nunchucks) (0 DCV) (last 1
minute)
11: 1d RKA autofire 12: 1.5d Penetrating (2 hexes)
8 recoverable RKA; 4 rec'able 10: 2d STUN
drain
(throwing crescents) (full phase) ranged
(blowgun)
2: Gliding 5" (cape) (crossbow) (4 charges)


100+ Disadvantages
20 Normal Max 10 Girlfriend 20 H: VIPER 11- 20
Protective/Innocents
15 Secret ID 5 Prof Rival 15 H: Bushman 8- 15 Honorable
5 Rep: rich (Midnight) 15 H: Drug lords 8- 10 Vengeful


History:
Marc Spector became rich through his mercenary activities; after all, he
was
one of the best. While on assignment is Egypt, he was killed by his
partner,
Bushman. Konshu, the Egyptian god of vengeance, and also one of three
gods of
the moon, brought Spector back to life to bear the mantle of Moon
Knight, his
agent on Earth. Bushman has since become president-for-eternity of a
small
African country. Spector has invested his ill-gotten wealth, and donates
large
sums to charities. By doing good, Spector tries to atone for his evil
past.

Tactics:
Marc will never take a life himself, but may work alongside those who
do, under
the right circumstances. Marc prefers to work silently. If a bunch of
agents
need to be taken out, he'll sneak up to them and pick them off one by
one,
using his martial arts. Against more powerful foes, he will usually
punch
until they're stunned, then kick them with his levels into +d6. He will
use
acrobatics to keep the enemy off guard, perhaps doing some surprise
flips to
land behind them. Against _really_ powerful foes, once they're stunned,
he'll
use his levels to place a kick to the head.

Personality:
Marc is an idealist. He believes that every life is important. "I died
once.
You wouldn't like it." He does believe that Konshu raised him, even
though
it may not be true. Sometimes he resents being yanked around by Konshu.

Marlene:
Marc's girlfriend, Marlene, knows his ID. She has been with him since he
became Moon Knight. For a while, she was trying to talk him out of
playing
soldier, but now she's cooled down, and even seems to want to help him
in
his crimefighting.

Midnight:
Marc's rival, Midnight (Jeff Wilde), is the son of a dead archenemy.
Midnight
wants to be teamed up with Moonie, but is only 16, and knows just enough
to get
himself into real trouble. He's almost a DNPC, but Jeff learned all of
his
father's thievery skills, and also knows Marc's ID. To prove his talent
to
Marc, he originally broke into several corporations of which Marc is a
major
stockholder, and left clues to implicate Marc. So, while he's not quite
in
Marc's league, he can't be totally disregarded.


Dave Mattingly "It's just like working in a fish market...
except
mattingly@bigfoot.com you don't have to clean and gut fish all
day."

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X-Sender: nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 09:34:52 -0500
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Moon Knight
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At 10:15 PM 3/12/98 -0500, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>
>Moon Knight went through at least 2 good long runs as a comic (possibly 3;
>didn't they just restart it?). The first run was an excellent comic for
>several reasons; Moon Knight had a lot of support personnel, Moon Knight was
>nothing more (really) than a trained normal - 'exceptional' thugs could go
>toe to toe with him and last, and Moon Knight's nemeses were pretty cool
>(Bushman, Midnight Man, Morpheus), and he had by far the funkiest
>helicopters ever built. MK is the ideal example for a street level
>superheroic campaign.
>

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned that in the past few months Moon Knight
has had a new mini-series, written by Doug Moench, the writer of the
original excellent series. Moench took MK straight back to his original
concept, complete with the multiple secret ID's and ambiguous supernatural
involvement.

Another interesting thing about the original series was Bill Sienkiewicz's
art. When the series began, Sienkiewicz was essentially a Neal Adams clone,
going for a photorealistic effect. Along the way, the story got into some
dream sequences and drug-induced perspectives, and Sienkiewicz started
experimenting with the wilder style he later became known for. By the end
of the series, even the "normal" sequences were getting visually bizarre.


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 09:48:27 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: 350 point character; please check it out
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by "Guy Hoyle"
>72 Damage Class +18DC <

+18 damage classes? That seems way too high to me, even in a 350 point
campaign....

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X-Authentication-Warning: snowy.owlnet.rice.edu: chip owned process doing -bs
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 08:53:10 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Tricks for Light EC?
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I'll post a copy of my EVIL campaign's light-wielding superhero and
Florida's champion, Spectrum, when I get home.

Basically, he can focus the coherence of light, producing holograms and
lasers, and of course he can turn invisible. His trick is that his powers
are all indirect--limited to originate from light sources. So there must
be an EM source for him to focus the light. If he carries one (like a
flashlight), then he gives away his position (invisiblity becomes much
less effective). His laser powers are stronger depending on the intensity
of the light source, up to being awe-inspiring when in direct sunlight. A
beam seems to come from the sun itself to fry the poor villains.

Of course, one strategy in fighting Spectrum would be to knock out all
available light sources, but then you wouldn't be able to see, either!

On Fri, 13 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote:

> One of my players is planning to build a character who can control light.
> He has a few older versions of this character, and basically he just has a
> variety of Energy Blasts and a "sword of light" which I think is just used
> for Missile Deflection. Oh, and he has the obligatory Flash. I'm sure
> there are lots of creative things that he could be doing with light...any
> suggestions? I already plan to have him take a look at Change Environment
> and Images (maybe the old one had Images, I'm not sure). The only light
> controllers I can think of from comics are Dazzler and Captain Marvel
> (although apparantly she has changed her name...I picked up the latest
> Avengers and she has a totally new name which is unrelated to the old one).
> All I know about Dazzler is that she converts sound to light and can blast
> people with it or blind them. With Captian Marvel, I know she can blast
> people and she can turn herself into energy and fly at incredible speeds.
> I guess that also implies Desolidification. Anyway, any other ideas you
> have would be great.
>

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 09:55:39 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Tricks for Light EC?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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One of my players is planning to build a character who can control light.
He has a few older versions of this character, and basically he just has a
variety of Energy Blasts and a "sword of light" which I think is just used
for Missile Deflection. Oh, and he has the obligatory Flash. I'm sure
there are lots of creative things that he could be doing with light...any
suggestions? I already plan to have him take a look at Change Environment
and Images (maybe the old one had Images, I'm not sure). The only light
controllers I can think of from comics are Dazzler and Captain Marvel
(although apparantly she has changed her name...I picked up the latest
Avengers and she has a totally new name which is unrelated to the old one).
All I know about Dazzler is that she converts sound to light and can blast
people with it or blind them. With Captian Marvel, I know she can blast
people and she can turn herself into energy and fly at incredible speeds.
I guess that also implies Desolidification. Anyway, any other ideas you
have would be great.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Segment 12
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-3,10-11,14-16
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 10:03:18 EST
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>>Can someone explain to me why the BBB says that combat starts on
segment
>>12?

A very early Adventurer's Club explained this with an example combat
between a distracted DEX 30 hero and an ambushing DEX 11 thug. If we
assume neither character spent any extra points on SPD, if that fight
started on segment 1 the hero, who was too busy reading his magazine to
notice the thug, would get two attacks before the thug got a chance to
swing his two-by-four. Starting on segment 12, the hero lost his move
because he didn't notice the ambusher and the thug got off his attack.

I suppose you could start combat in an ambush/surprise situation with the
first segment the ambusher has a move in, but personally I've never had a
problem with segment 12 start.

Leah

_____________________________________________________________________
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From: "Michael Rath (Volt Computer)" <a-mirath@microsoft.com>
Subject: RE: The great Linked debate?
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 07:14:36 -0800
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I realize that many of you have been on the list for a long time, but I
think to YELL like this is pretty foolish. If there was a archive on the
debate, stating the link to it would have been more intelligent.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Wong [SMTP:rook@shell.infinex.com]
> Sent: Thursday, March 12, 1998 8:11 AM
> To: champ-l@omg.org
> Cc: champ-l@omg.org
> Subject: Re: The great Linked debate?
>
> >
> > I wasn't around for this, so I don't know what all the debate was about.
> =
> >
> > Without starting it up all over again, could someone maybe sum up the
> > different viewpoints on Linked? I have almost never seen Linked used in
> a
>
> PLEASE TAKE ALL RESPONSES AND COORSPONDANCE ON THIS ISSUE TO
> PRIVATE EMAIL ONLY !!!

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Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 10:16:05 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Trick problems
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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In the lists of Speedster and Brick tricks that have appeared on this list
lately, there have been some that bother me. The two that keep coming to
mind are using Tunneling to simulate a brick ripping through walls, bank
vaults, etc., and a Speedster using an AE Autofire attack to punch everyone
in the room several times in one phase. There are more examples, but these
are the two I remember for some reason.

The problem I have with a brick using Tunneling to rip through walls is
that it totally negates the strength of the wall. While it might take a
brick several punches to get through a wall with his strength, he just goes
through it instantly (assuming his Tunneling can handle the DEF of the
wall). In essence, this power makes him much stronger than his STR would
indicate, since his STR indicates that it would take several punches.

It's the same problem with the speedster trick...it allows him to be much
faster than his movement powers would indicate.

Even though these bother me, I already know the rationalization for using
them, which makes it hard for me to make a good argument against using
them. Does anybody else have a problem with powers like this, or if not,
can you help convince me that they aren't "dirty tricks" for getting extra
speed or strength out of your character?

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Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 10:20:10 -0500 (EST)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: 350 point character; please check it out
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>72 Damage Class +18DC

GAH!!! 23 DC on his martial strike! Madness!!

>4 M Strike
>17 +10" Running,x4 Non-Combat,x2 Increased End Cost(-1/2) 4
>5 EC (Magical Protection) (9),Visible(-1/4),Always On(-1/2)
>10a) 0/18 Armor
>10b) 18/0 Armor
>10c) 27 Power Defense
>10d) 29 Mental Defense
>12e) Life Support,doesn't breathe,doesn't eat/sleep/excrete,safe
> in vacuum/pressure,safe in radiation,safe in heat/cold,
> immune to disease,immune to aging
>12f) 3 BODY Regen

Total cheeze. The armor should all be in one slot. PowDef and MenDef
shouldn't be in an EC at all - nor life support or Regeneration without
_really_ good explanation (magical defense powers doesn't cut it, I'm afraid).

Also, none of these powers are limited by having 'always on'.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

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Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 10:29:59 -0500
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Influences & Source Material
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The current Moon Knight discussion and recent discussions of comics reading
& Champions have got me curious: what particular works and creators have
been the biggest influences on people's games?

I occasionally have a particular writer's style in mind when I create a
scenario. I ran a Champions adventure with a haunted house aiming for some
Alan Moore-ish scenes, and have often emulated the Silver Age Justice
League and the 80's Teen Titans in plotting adventures. Sometimes I
envision a character (PC or NPC) as being in the style of a particular
creator - it's lots of fun to set out to create a Jack Kirby hero, for
instance.

For the most part, when I have a conscious influence, it's the style I
emulate, not a particular character or situation. I like creating my own
characters and worlds - I refuse to use the Champions Universe for the same
reason. And I've had a distaste for thinly disguised versions of existing
characters ever since my first Villains & Vigilantes game when 2/3 of the
players described their characters as "just like Wolverine." Still, I did
once base an NPC's appearance and special effects on one of the Storms from
Big Trouble in Little China. I also like to use existing characters as
points of departure, extrapolating from parts of their concepts.

I also sometimes borrow the persona of a celebrity to give life to an NPC.
I had a super-sorcerer who dressed and talked like Doug Henning, and a
supervillain with the mannerisms of Jimmy Stewart. Since I'm not a very
good impressionist, my players can rarely tell who I'm modeling my NPC
after, which is just fine - it makes them seem original, and the characters
remain consistent with my general style.

As for genres other than superheroes, I had one campaign that incorporated
elements of the Amber books, Illuminatus, Twin Peaks, Cerebus, contemporary
American politics, and a Shakespearian character or two. The beauty of
influences is that the more places you borrow from, the more original your
end result can be.

Some influences are pervasive throughout gaming. Lord of the Rings and
Fahfrd & The Grey Mouser have been enormous influences on my fantasy games;
thanks to D&D, those series have defined fantasy for a lot of people who've
never even read the books. I suspect that few of us can say they've never
created (or at least encountered as a PC) a Lovecraftian monster. I
generally try to resist these influences, though; I prefer to avoid the
feel of D&D, and it always bugs me when published Fantasy Hero material
includes clerics with healing spells, colored dragons with various breath
weapons, regenerating trolls, etc.



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X-Sender: nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 10:53:06 -0500
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Tricks for Light EC?
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At 09:55 AM 3/13/98 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>One of my players is planning to build a character who can control light.
>He has a few older versions of this character, and basically he just has a
>variety of Energy Blasts and a "sword of light" which I think is just used
>for Missile Deflection. Oh, and he has the obligatory Flash. I'm sure
>there are lots of creative things that he could be doing with light...any
>suggestions? I already plan to have him take a look at Change Environment
>and Images (maybe the old one had Images, I'm not sure).

Whether you build it as a separate power or not, you may want to consider
one of the most popular comic book uses of images - multiple images of the
light controller.

The recent discussion of Suppress in Elemental Controls made me think of
Suppress vs. Darkness and Images. Battles of light controllers and "dark"
controllers could make for great symbolism, and tearing apart others'
illusions seems plausible.

Logically speaking, control of light implies control of darkness. If it's
thematically appropriate, the character could divert all visible light from
an area, and thus have the power Darkness. On the other hand, you could
make the SFX of Darkness an area of blinding light - just as visually
impairing as blackness.

Depending on the character concept, Enhanced Sense could be very
appropriate. IR & UV vision seem like naturals, either because the
character's sense of light extends beyond the normal visual range or
because he is able to use his control of wavelengths to translate that data
into visible light as it reaches his eyes.

If you want to get _really_ weird, the character could even start playing
with some of the psychological effects of certain colors - some sort of
limited mind control. That's more of a character concept in itself, though.

The only light
>controllers I can think of from comics are Dazzler and Captain Marvel
>(although apparantly she has changed her name...I picked up the latest
>Avengers and she has a totally new name which is unrelated to the old one).
> All I know about Dazzler is that she converts sound to light and can blast
>people with it or blind them. With Captian Marvel, I know she can blast
>people and she can turn herself into energy and fly at incredible speeds.
>I guess that also implies Desolidification. Anyway, any other ideas you
>have would be great.
>

Other light controllers include:

Justice League villain Dr. Light and his namesake successors (including a
heroine)
Cloak's partner Dagger
80's Flash villain the Rainbow Raider (Secret ID: Roy G. Bivula!)
Batman villain Crazy Quilt
Captain Atom villain Dr. Spectrum (funny how many light villains there are)
The Ray



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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 07:54:19 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: 350 point character; please check it out
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At 04:04 AM 3/13/1998 -0600, Guy Hoyle wrote:
>15 STR 5
>30 DEX 60
>12 CON 4
>12 BODY 4
>18 INT 8
>10 EGO 0
>23 PRE 13
>20 COM 5
>3 PD 0
>2 ED 0
>5 SPD 10
>17 REC 24
>24 END 0
>26 STUN 0

The only change I'd strongly recommend here is a 13 CON.

>Characteristics Cost: 133
>
>72 Damage Class +18DC
>5 Takeaway
>4 Martial Block
>4 Martial Dodge
>3 Martial Throw
>5 Passing Strike
>4 M Strike

Gads! His Martial Strike does 23d6! This seems kinda much for me; I'd
check with the GM to make sure this doesn't blow things too far out of the
water.

>5 EC (Magical Protection) (9),Visible(-1/4),Always On(-1/2)
>10a) 0/18 Armor
>10b) 18/0 Armor
>10c) 27 Power Defense
>10d) 29 Mental Defense
>12e) Life Support,doesn't breathe,doesn't eat/sleep/excrete,safe
> in vacuum/pressure,safe in radiation,safe in heat/cold,
> immune to disease,immune to aging
>12f) 3 BODY Regen

The Always On Limitation should be stricken; these defenses are already
always on, by default. And I don't think I'd put any of these in an EC
anyway, unless they had some sort of unifying Advantage of Limitation (like
all are Usable By Others, and Cost END).

>Base Points: 200
>10 Distinctive,"Magical glow",concealable,minor

He glows in the dark? Or he stands out to those with Mystic Awareness?
---
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Subject: Re: Trick problems
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 10:54:56 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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On 3/13/98 10:16 AM David Stallard (DBStallard@compuserve.com) Said:

>The problem I have with a brick using Tunneling to rip through walls is
>that it totally negates the strength of the wall. While it might take a
>brick several punches to get through a wall with his strength, he just goes
>through it instantly (assuming his Tunneling can handle the DEF of the
>wall). In essence, this power makes him much stronger than his STR would
>indicate, since his STR indicates that it would take several punches.
>
>It's the same problem with the speedster trick...it allows him to be much
>faster than his movement powers would indicate.

So put a limitation on them that limits them to the levels you think they
should be limited to, or only buy enough effect to get what you want.

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Tricks for Light EC?
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 07:59:29 -0800
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>I'm sure there are lots of creative things that he could be
>doing with light...any suggestions?

RKA: Intense laser beam
Energy Blast: Wider laser beam
Invisibility: Redirecting light
Darkness: Intensifying light to the point of blinding, or removing all
light
Desolid: Becoming light
Force Wall: Solidifying Light
Images: Creating light images
Absorption: Absorbing light-based powers
Force Field: Intense field of light surrounding character diminishes
incoming attacks
Damage Shield: Intense field of light surrounding character hurts
attacker
360 Degree Sight: Bending light into character's view
Clairsentience: Bending light around corners
IR and UV Vision: Full spectrum vision
Microscopic & Telescopic Vision: Enhancing existing light patterns
FTL: Fly at speed of light
Flash: Create blinding light
Flash Defense: Reflexively polarizing light
Change Env: Create or Diminish Light
Dispel Darkness: (the power Darkness, that is)
Missile Reflection: for light-based attacks
NND EB: Flashing patterns of light that interrupt synapses
Drain INT: Dazzling patterns of light
Mind Control & Telepathy: Hypnotic patterns
Instant Change: Altering appearance
Cosmetic Transform: Permanently change color of an object
Teleport: moving at light speed (possibly not through opaque objects
-1/2)

Many of the powers can be bought as Usable By Others (like invisibility,
instant change, etc.)

Dave Mattingly
http://www.geocities.com/area51/cavern/1905/pwrpnt.html

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Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 11:01:55 -0500
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: 350 point character; please check it out
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At 10:20 AM 3/13/98 -0500, John and Ron Prins wrote:

>>72 Damage Class +18DC
>
>GAH!!! 23 DC on his martial strike! Madness!!
>

I'm not sure how facetious you're being here, but I've got nothing against
different power levels in Champions. My personal taste, however, is for 350
point characters who have about the same 60 active point cap as in a
typical 250 point game. This tends to result in characters with a lot more
background skills and a lot more little details to their concepts (e.g.
minor vehicles and gadgets, or powers that are interesting but rarely useful.)


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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Trick problems
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 08:04:01 -0800
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David Stallard asks:
>The problem I have with a brick using Tunneling to rip through walls is
>that it totally negates the strength of the wall.
>Can you help convince me that they aren't "dirty tricks"

I don't have a problem with it, since it gives flavor to otherwise
possibly bland archetypes, but on the mathematical front, it would have
been a lot more effective for a brick to spend those extra points on STR
instead of tunneling. Not only would he be able to punch through walls
now with very little effort, but he'd also get the extra figured
characteristics and damage/lifting/etc.

Dave Mattingly

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 08:08:49 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: LARPing up
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At 06:04 PM 3/12/1998 -0800, Christopher Taylor wrote:
>Maybe Im too jaded but what exactly is the pull of live action role playing?
>I have enough problem with toeing the line of geekitude with role playing as
>it is (chuckle), especially in the 'no combat' sessions, but walkin around
>saying "I use my power blast on you!!" just ummm, well I liked it when I
>was 12...

I don't know how this goes, really. I've been to exactly one game
convention in my life (Game Con '81), and the only LARP session there was
cancelled.
A couple of years later, I was in a Champions game at a game club that
operated out of the back room of a game store. In the game, the heroes'
investigation led them to the back of a game store where a game club was
operating. When a fight broke out, we got up and basically used the place
we were at as a map. (We couldn't all take our characters' positions,
because one character was 4" tall and another one, my own, used Clinging to
stand on the wall above the door.)
But a full-fledged, live action game? I've never actually tried it.
---
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Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 10:13:08 -0600 (CST)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Trick problems
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On Fri, 13 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote:

> The problem I have with a brick using Tunneling to rip through walls is
> that it totally negates the strength of the wall. While it might take a
> brick several punches to get through a wall with his strength, he just goes
> through it instantly (assuming his Tunneling can handle the DEF of the
> wall). In essence, this power makes him much stronger than his STR would
> indicate, since his STR indicates that it would take several punches.

OK...here's what I do...I think 'It's based on comic books'. When people
write comic books they don't have a chart or a formula saying 'Well, the
Inedible Bulk can lift a tank, so he should hurt someone this much when he
hits them and should take this long to smash through a brick wall'. They
just write it so it sounds good - "Bulk smashes through the brick wall"

So no, I don't have a problem with the Tunnelling effect. I'd probably
limit it - I don't see Bulk burrowing under a battlefield - but for
getting through walls and stuff, it's fine.

> Even though these bother me, I already know the rationalization for using
> them, which makes it hard for me to make a good argument against using
> them. Does anybody else have a problem with powers like this, or if not,
> can you help convince me that they aren't "dirty tricks" for getting extra
> speed or strength out of your character?

Well, they are 'tricks for getting extra speed and strength from your
character' - but that kind of stuff happens all the time in the comics.
The speedster doesn't move that fast all the time because it's probably an
effort for him to do so - costs lots of END. Maybe he's trained himself
so he's able to do things like that faster than normal. Maybe the brick
doesn't know how to use his full strength very effeectively in combat, so
he does better at breaking through walls and such. I generally look on
stuff like that as 'power stunts', where you're pushing the edges of your
power.

J

"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 08:22:47 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Twisted Scenario Ideas
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At 08:38 PM 3/12/1998, qts wrote:
>> However, the PCs, working through the Internet, are able to get past
>>security measures in the Chinese government's computers -- up to a point.
>>They need an extremely long access code to get the actual information that
>>will enable them to neutralize the virus.
>
>Up to here I'd have suggested that they 'suggest' to the Chinese Govt
>that they co-operate, stressing the resultant good publicity ("Chinese
>antidote saves Gotham!"), even to the extent of sending a Chinese Hero
>(possibly fake - good plot here) over.

They could suggest it, but frankly as far as I can tell Maoists care
less about looking good to the outside world than about keeping their own
country, and especially their own positions, secure. Remember too, they
don't want to admit that the research ever took place, and will insist that
the Americans (or whoever) is making a blatant attempt as espionage. ("We
will not open our security protocols to outsiders so they can investigate
research that never took place.")
This, in fact, is why I decided to pick on the Chinese for my example.
---
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Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 08:30:50 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Tricks for Light EC?
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At 04:14 PM 3/12/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>Message text written by Darien Phoenix Lynx
>>Perhaps. But suppress offers you a good mechanic for using your own
>element to defeat another element. It often comes up, and it can make
>battles between SFX in play more interesting. Considering this earth
>example:<
>
>Okay, you've convinced me. I know one of my PCs will be a light
>controller...got any Suppress examples for that one?

How about Suppress Darkness?
---
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Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 08:45:49 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Influences & Source Material
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At 10:29 AM 3/13/1998 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>
>The current Moon Knight discussion and recent discussions of comics reading
>& Champions have got me curious: what particular works and creators have
>been the biggest influences on people's games?

For me, turn to the 80s X-Titles, Teen Titans, JLA/JSA crossovers,
Legion of Super-Heroes, Infinity Inc., and just about anything superheroic
on television (up until the current trend of anime-inspired live-action
stuff like Power Rangers and Beetlebors). Throw in the GI Joe and
Transformer cartoons for good measure, plus minor influences from Zelazny's
Amber and Asprin's Myth.
I've been known to cobble a plot or two from Darkwing Duck, and I've
been seeing a wealth of ideas as I've been re-watching Road Rovers. (Dare
I say it? "I would not have predicted that!")

>For the most part, when I have a conscious influence, it's the style I
>emulate, not a particular character or situation. I like creating my own
>characters and worlds - I refuse to use the Champions Universe for the same
>reason. And I've had a distaste for thinly disguised versions of existing
>characters ever since my first Villains & Vigilantes game when 2/3 of the
>players described their characters as "just like Wolverine." Still, I did
>once base an NPC's appearance and special effects on one of the Storms from
>Big Trouble in Little China. I also like to use existing characters as
>points of departure, extrapolating from parts of their concepts.

One of my favorite PCs was a feline-themed night vigilante who went
through a number of names, though I finally ended up with Shadow Panther.
His point of departure was "sort of a cross between Batman and Wildcat,
with a little bit of Doctor Mid-Nite thrown in." I ended up adding some
superhuman characteristics (partially, but not completely, on inspiration
from the junior Wildcat and Doc Mid-Nite), and on the whole he's my
preferred "dark" character.

>Some influences are pervasive throughout gaming. Lord of the Rings and
>Fahfrd & The Grey Mouser have been enormous influences on my fantasy games;
>thanks to D&D, those series have defined fantasy for a lot of people who've
>never even read the books. I suspect that few of us can say they've never
>created (or at least encountered as a PC) a Lovecraftian monster. I
>generally try to resist these influences, though; I prefer to avoid the
>feel of D&D, and it always bugs me when published Fantasy Hero material
>includes clerics with healing spells, colored dragons with various breath
>weapons, regenerating trolls, etc.

Yeah, there's a fairly clear AD&D influence in the published FH stuff.
It's the only aspect of it that really bugs me. Frankly, I'd like to see
that extended to other familiar game worlds, though; drag in some ideas
from the Runequest and T&T systems, maybe some ideas from worlds of fiction
(like Xanth or Myth) and then let it start to gel together into something
with a character all its own.
---
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Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 08:51:39 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Trick problems
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At 10:16 AM 3/13/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>The problem I have with a brick using Tunneling to rip through walls is
>that it totally negates the strength of the wall. While it might take a
>brick several punches to get through a wall with his strength, he just goes
>through it instantly (assuming his Tunneling can handle the DEF of the
>wall). In essence, this power makes him much stronger than his STR would
>indicate, since his STR indicates that it would take several punches.
>
>It's the same problem with the speedster trick...it allows him to be much
>faster than his movement powers would indicate.
>
>Even though these bother me, I already know the rationalization for using
>them, which makes it hard for me to make a good argument against using
>them. Does anybody else have a problem with powers like this, or if not,
>can you help convince me that they aren't "dirty tricks" for getting extra
>speed or strength out of your character?

I don't have much of a problem with it, for the specific reason that you
state that they do bother you. They enable the characters to do things
that their raw scores would normally not allow. These things are allowable
because they're very *narrow* things that would require the purchase of
scores far in excess of what most campaigns would allow, just to be able to
do one or two little tricks.
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Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 11:55:46 -0500
From: TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net>
Subject: Re: 350 point character; please check it out
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>
>That's the kind of commentary I was looking for. Since I posted this, I am
>taking somebody's suggestion and making this character an android
(relatively >immune to mental attacks because he doesn't have a human
brain; the same to >magical attacks because he's a product of high
technology). The two types of >armor I was justifying as being two
different types of armor (insulators for >the energy protection,
high-resistance plastic shielding for the physical >protection).

This is possible. I would add to the mental def. the limitation that it
doesn't work v. Cyber-telepathy. Someone who reads human minds, yes. But
not someone who normally interfaces with computers by a special form of
telepathy.

I really do think the two slots of armor have to go though. Assuming your
GM allows a bunch of special powers, you could always make on slot 9/9
armor and the other slot damage reduction. The armor could be a composite
ceremic alloy that protects v. physical and energy. The damage reduction
could be a outer layer of more flexible (closely resembles skin) armor that
gives more with the attacks, spreading out the energy of the attack so it's
less effective.

Another option could be a force field, bought down to persistent always on.
This would explain the glow as well. Just thoughts, alot depends on the
power level of the group. This character is relatively fast but if
everyone else is doing 22D6 also the odds are if they hit he'll get
clobbered pretty fast.



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Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 08:56:01 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Tricks for Light EC?
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At 09:55 AM 3/13/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>One of my players is planning to build a character who can control light.
>He has a few older versions of this character, and basically he just has a
>variety of Energy Blasts and a "sword of light" which I think is just used
>for Missile Deflection. Oh, and he has the obligatory Flash. I'm sure
>there are lots of creative things that he could be doing with light...any
>suggestions? I already plan to have him take a look at Change Environment
>and Images (maybe the old one had Images, I'm not sure).

Well, there's always that old standby, the laser RKA.
The laser can also be used for a combination Force Field/RKA Damage Shield.
A field of dazzling lights can be an Area Effect AVLD.
For that matter, the dazzling lights can be hypnotic in effect,
providing a bit of Mind Control and/or other Mental Powers (season to taste).
And how about Absorption of light-based attacks?
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Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 11:06:10 -0600 (CST)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re; Brick dirty Tricks
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<snip bit where Dave says that extra STR would be more useful than
Tunnelling (busting thru walls) - actually, I accidentally deleted that
message>

Of course, if the brick is already at the DC limits for the game he really
can't (or shouldn't) buy more STR. The tunnelling lets him effectively
boost his STR in a manner that doesn't upset the game balance by giving
him attacks that are twice as big as everyone else's...

BTW, what limitations would be in effect on the tunnelling power? I'd be
tempted to put a maximum of an inch on it - if the whatever is thicker
than 1" you can't break through it - just because I picture this as being
'bust through walls' not 'dig a tunnel through a mountain'. That'd be a
pretty hefty limitation in my book...probably at least a -1, maybe more,
since it disallows a lot of the tactical/movement abilities of Tunnelling.

J

"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"

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Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 12:11:15 -0500 (EST)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: 350 point character; please check it out
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>>>72 Damage Class +18DC
>>
>>GAH!!! 23 DC on his martial strike! Madness!!
>
>I'm not sure how facetious you're being here, but I've got nothing against
>different power levels in Champions. My personal taste, however, is for 350
>point characters who have about the same 60 active point cap as in a
>typical 250 point game.

Well, my primary reason for the response is based on experience - it's bad
enough getting players to roll and wait for them to count up 12 dice. But
23!!! Only on Haymakers, thanks. Though, like you, I prefer to stay in the
60 AP range for attacks - I'd rather those extra points go into versatility
or a full background.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

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Reply-To: "James Jandebeur" <Waveking@concentric.net>
From: "James Jandebeur" <Waveking@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Various questions
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 09:21:20 -0800
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>>I'm not sure why you're suggesting Entangle instead of Force Wall. Is it
>>because Entangle doesn't have to be maintained? Other than that, I don't
>>see any difference in this case. Anyway, your method doesn't take into
>>account the fact that this big column of earth is moving like a wave, with
>>the characters riding the crest. To make successive columns using
>>Entangles wouldn't be practical unless you bought it down to zero END.


Well, if your Force Wall has the special effect of coming up from the ocean
depths, and the GM does not mind that implication, and doesn't charge you
for all the force wall to the ocean floor, then fine. I personally don't
mind this, as the column itself serves no useful purpose to our heroes, and
in fact can be knocked down, putting them back into the water, which is
somewhat a limitation (not worth a bonus...) If the GM WILL charge you for
the force wall all the way, it is far too expensive. Getting a FW that
large without changing them to have doubling area would be thousands of
points, at least. The Entangle, on the other hand, can be thrown again and
again until it is up to the surface, and even better if it simply floats.
As for riding the crest, well, neither of these methods seems to allow that.
I'd probably just buy it as Swimming and some area Telekinesis, myself, or
Usable By (or Against, but it seemed like they must be willing) Others
Swimming: Only on Surface (you get swept off underwater). Or not charged
for it at all, if I considered the power to just not be something that's
going to ever come up again, as has already been mentioned. As a multipower
slot, though, this isn't too expensive and could be useful in various
situations.

JAJ, Rules Philosopher

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: voxel@mail.theramp.net
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 11:25:00 -0600
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: Penetrating / AVLD
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> AVLD vs non-resistant PD: a very broad-based pressure that requires soft
>defenses (as opposed to the theoretical "hard" defenses of resistant PD) to
>protect (this was another setting on the above-mentioned emaser)

I've seen this tried before, and frankly, I consider it a primo
munchkin-lord construction. "Non-resistant PD" should be considered a
superset of resistant PD; I don't care for the notion of turning points
spent into a limitation.

--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html

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From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 98 17:27:12
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Only in Hero ID
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On Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:45:59 -0500, David Stallard wrote:

>I've been wondering about the limitation "Only in Hero ID". I once played
>in a campaign where they did not allow this limitation, because they said
>you could tack it onto everything and get a bunch of free points for it. I
>had never thought about it before then, but the comments they made have had
>me wondering about this limitation for years....
>
>I think maybe the BBB uses a Thor-like character as an example...I'm not
>sure, but that's always the image that comes to mind. Anyway, with this
>limitation, his Secret ID is not able to use any powers, but once he
>becomes a hero he gets this big hammer and some powers. But how does the
>secret ID *become* the hero? Does he have "Instant Change" which is
>available at all times, and then everything else is Only in Hero ID? It
>seems to make more sense to use Multiform, where one form is the Secret ID
>and the other is the god of thunder. Maybe what I'm trying to say (I'm not
>sure, myself) is that Only in Hero ID seems to be a way of doing Multiform
>but without writing up two character sheets. Using Only in Hero ID, it
>seems like you could buy all of your superhuman characteristics with Only
>in Hero ID and save a whole mess of points....

Well, this is true of any limitation if the GM never exploits it.

>I don't know if the above paragraph makes any sense, but anyway, can
>somebody give me a few examples where Only in Hero ID is entirely
>appropriate?


========================

Most of my examples are going to be DC characters, as they're what I read the most.

Well, you Thor example is a good one, as is the Hulk (puny Banner, Hulk is strongest).

The current energy form Superman (the writers have taken the ffort to show that as Clark
he is as vulnerable as anyone).

Depending on how you write him up, Iron Man's armour could qualify as a hero id (with
some of the writers who have worked on the book the armour simply NEVER gets
taken away which makes it a bit questionable as a focus).

The Black Racer from Jack Kirby's New Gods stuff. The Black Racer is actully a
merger of a normal human and a god, and it's not a permanent thing, only when the
Black Racer is needed, the rest of the time Willie Walker is completely paralyzed.

The Creeper - Jack Ryder has no powers, but can "instant change" into that yellow
freak.

Dial "H" for Hero - I think that guy from Superboy and the Ravers has the dial now, but
that's a classic hero ID only effect.

Firestorm and Firehawk - neither seems to have any powers when "human".

With heroes like the Question and Batman I could easily see extra PRE with the hero id
only limitation. (Yes, it's possible to justify this for almost any hero, but I would tend to
reserve it for those folks for whom PRE is actually an important part of their concept).

Captain Marvel would be another classic "instant change" sort of hero id only.


=======================


So, is this enough, or do you need some more? (after all, I've barely scratched the
surface of the Marvel character).



-=>John D.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 10:03:46 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Ultimate Energy Projector?
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The various threads about stupid 'n' tricks have me wondering if there will
ever an "Ultimate Energy Procector" book. The book should cover a wide
range of typical EP powers, such as fire, ice, darkness, magnetism, sound,
electricity, etc, with examples of how to do common 'tricks' with them,
what things should/should not be permitted as 0-cost 'special effects',
etc. (i.e, someone with the ability to shoot fire bolts should not have to
buy another power to light a campfire, just because someone with the same
active points in an ice bolt can't)

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Brick dirty Tricks
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 10:07:55 -0800
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Jeff Sakura writes:
>Of course, if the brick is already at the DC limits for the game he
really
>can't (or shouldn't) buy more STR. The tunneling lets him effectively
>boost his STR in a manner that doesn't upset the game balance by giving
>him attacks that are twice as big as everyone else's...
>BTW, what limitations would be in effect on the tunneling power?

The big advantage that this gives the brick is that he can half-move
through a wall and still attack. If you want to keep it at campaign
limits, then keep the tunneling the same way.

So (assuming a 60 STR) the brick would buy 2" of Tunneling through 12
DEF, with a limitation (at -1/2) that only 1" can actually be moved (so
that he can tunnel in a half move), and only if there is empty space on
the other side of the wall/door (-1) to prevent him tunneling through
the ground or a mountain.

This tunneling would cost him 40 / 2.5 = 17 points, and costs 1 END. If
you want it to take the same amount of END as his STR would have, add a
6xEND (since only the inches moved, not the DEF tunneled through, count
for END) at an additional -2.5 lim, reducing the power's cost to 8. If
you generally rule that the DEF also costs END, then the normal END cost
would be 4, and the increased END would only be 2x, for an additional
-1/2 lim, or 13 points.

I often use this power for desolid characters. With tunneling, they can
half-move through a wall and still attack. With normal desolid, though,
they wouldn't be able to.

Dave Mattingly

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X-Authentication-Warning: bermuda.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 12:25:22 -0600 (CST)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Entangles as walls
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I'm kind of curious where the idea of using an entangle as a created wall
came from - it seems to be less intuitive than a lot of stuff in the HERO
system. Can anyone explain it?

"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:27:00 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Tricks for Light EC?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Bill Svitavsky
>Other light controllers include:

Justice League villain Dr. Light and his namesake successors (including a
heroine)
Cloak's partner Dagger
80's Flash villain the Rainbow Raider (Secret ID: Roy G. Bivula!)
Batman villain Crazy Quilt
Captain Atom villain Dr. Spectrum (funny how many light villains there are)
The Ray<

Since my comics background is almost exclusively Marvel, the only one of
those I'm familiar with is Dagger, but I didn't read enough of that comic
to know what she could do. This player used to be a big fan of Cloak &
Dagger, though, so maybe that's his inspiration for his light controller.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:36:06 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Trick problems
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade
> I don't have much of a problem with it, for the specific reason that
you
state that they do bother you. They enable the characters to do things
that their raw scores would normally not allow. These things are allowable
because they're very *narrow* things that would require the purchase of
scores far in excess of what most campaigns would allow, just to be able to
do one or two little tricks.<

I'll give you that for the brick smashing a wall, but a speedster running
around hitting everyone in a room multiple times (via an AE:Any and
Autofire) isn't a narrow ability...it's something he could conceivably use
in every battle. Still, I think I'm starting to come around...

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:43:29 EST
Subject: Fantasy Hero adventures sought!
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<< Yeah, there's a fairly clear AD&D influence in the published FH stuff. It's
the only aspect of it that really bugs me. >>

It's always frustrating as a publisher to read complaints about a given
product line, knowing that we are not receiving *proposals* to reflect the
kind of material that vocal/online consumers say that they would like to see.

So, let me send out my call for Fantasy Hero adventures once again. ;)
We're looking for 16 page adventures (about 6,000 words) for inclusion in
Heroic Adventures 3. We're still looking for a few more adventures for this
book.

Please check our submission guidelines which are available on our web site at
http://members.aol.com/goldrushg.

Mark @ GRG

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:45:59 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Only in Hero ID
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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I've been wondering about the limitation "Only in Hero ID". I once played
in a campaign where they did not allow this limitation, because they said
you could tack it onto everything and get a bunch of free points for it. I
had never thought about it before then, but the comments they made have had
me wondering about this limitation for years....

I think maybe the BBB uses a Thor-like character as an example...I'm not
sure, but that's always the image that comes to mind. Anyway, with this
limitation, his Secret ID is not able to use any powers, but once he
becomes a hero he gets this big hammer and some powers. But how does the
secret ID *become* the hero? Does he have "Instant Change" which is
available at all times, and then everything else is Only in Hero ID? It
seems to make more sense to use Multiform, where one form is the Secret ID
and the other is the god of thunder. Maybe what I'm trying to say (I'm not
sure, myself) is that Only in Hero ID seems to be a way of doing Multiform
but without writing up two character sheets. Using Only in Hero ID, it
seems like you could buy all of your superhuman characteristics with Only
in Hero ID and save a whole mess of points....

I don't know if the above paragraph makes any sense, but anyway, can
somebody give me a few examples where Only in Hero ID is entirely
appropriate?

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:54:18 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Ultimate Energy Projector?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Lizard
>The various threads about stupid 'n' tricks have me wondering if there
will
ever an "Ultimate Energy Procector" book. The book should cover a wide
range of typical EP powers, such as fire, ice, darkness, magnetism, sound,
electricity, etc, with examples of how to do common 'tricks' with them,
what things should/should not be permitted as 0-cost 'special effects',
etc. (i.e, someone with the ability to shoot fire bolts should not have to
buy another power to light a campfire, just because someone with the same
active points in an ice bolt can't)<

Someone else had the same suggestion within the last week, and I
wholeheartedly agree. The most valuable thing this book could do would be
to lay down some physics guidelines.... There's nothing I hate more than
having a session degenerate into a debate over whether the mass or heat of
X is enough to allow Y. I don't study the laws of physics in my spare
time, so I'm ill-equipped to argue over the quirks of some special effect.
Physics discussions seem to be a common part of a Champions session, and
since I don't plan to go out and buy some college textbooks to be prepared
for the next "Element X vs Element Y" debate, I think an energy projector
book would be extremely valuable.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 14:00:38 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Penetrating / AVLD
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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(For those keeping track, this is officially my umpteenth question to the
list in the last week)

I hope I'm not putting my foot in my mouth here, because I haven't read the
description of the Penetrating advantage in quite a while. Anyway, I've
always been uncertain about this...I can't think of an attack that should
ALWAYS do some damage, regardless of the defense. Can somebody put this
advantage into perspective?

While you're at it, how about some examples of what an AVLD attack would
be? This is another one that has had me scratching my head at times.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 14:11:12 -0500
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Entangles as walls
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At 12:25 PM 3/13/98 -0600, Sakura wrote:
>
>I'm kind of curious where the idea of using an entangle as a created wall
>came from - it seems to be less intuitive than a lot of stuff in the HERO
>system. Can anyone explain it?
>

It makes sense to me. An Entangle normally creates an object with a defined
DEF and BODY which continues to exist until it's destroyed. It's a simple
matter to disregard the usual use of the power, where it binds a character,
and make use of the DEF and BODY of an object which can get in other
people's way. Perhaps using Force Wall for this would be more intuitive,
but rules-wise it would be far more cumbersome; it would have to be
Uncontrolled, with a 0 END cost, and would require that a BODY value be
assigned to it somehow. Transform would be the other possible solution,
since it can be used to create other objects, but Transform lacks a simple
mechanic for determining DEF.

This use of Entangle is also convenient because it's a logical use of many
of the same SFX that produce a binding Entangle: Spider-Man can use his web
to hold someone down, but he can also block off a corridor with it.



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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"David Stallard\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 98 19:14:51
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Penetrating / AVLD
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To: champ-l@omg.org

On Fri, 13 Mar 1998 14:00:38 -0500, David Stallard wrote:

>(For those keeping track, this is officially my umpteenth question to the
>list in the last week)
>
>I hope I'm not putting my foot in my mouth here, because I haven't read the
>description of the Penetrating advantage in quite a while. Anyway, I've
>always been uncertain about this...I can't think of an attack that should
>ALWAYS do some damage, regardless of the defense. Can somebody put this
>advantage into perspective?

A swarm of insects (some are bound to get inside your armour), a
super-intense heat ray (it makes your defenses so hot they burn you)
etc.


qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 98 19:19:19
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Twisted Scenario Ideas
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On Fri, 13 Mar 1998 08:22:47 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:

>At 08:38 PM 3/12/1998, qts wrote:
>>> However, the PCs, working through the Internet, are able to get past
>>>security measures in the Chinese government's computers -- up to a point.
>>>They need an extremely long access code to get the actual information that
>>>will enable them to neutralize the virus.
>>
>>Up to here I'd have suggested that they 'suggest' to the Chinese Govt
>>that they co-operate, stressing the resultant good publicity ("Chinese
>>antidote saves Gotham!"), even to the extent of sending a Chinese Hero
>>(possibly fake - good plot here) over.
>
> They could suggest it, but frankly as far as I can tell Maoists care
>less about looking good to the outside world than about keeping their own
>country, and especially their own positions, secure. Remember too, they
>don't want to admit that the research ever took place, and will insist that
>the Americans (or whoever) is making a blatant attempt as espionage. ("We
>will not open our security protocols to outsiders so they can investigate
>research that never took place.")
> This, in fact, is why I decided to pick on the Chinese for my example.

Hehehe. Pursuing this idea, the trick with the Chinese would be to
suggest that they suggest the Japanese did it (remember the subway
gassings?) and they had been preparing for such an attack, and were
only too happy to help their good friend Mr Nixon - the Chinese HATE
the Japs (as does the whole of SE Asia).
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 11:21:16 -0800
From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell)
Subject: 350 point character Fixed Version
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To: champ-l@omg.org


Your character, as written, is quite inefficient and unbalanced. He does
23d6 with his strike, but a mere 10d6 energy blast will stun him! He's
just asking for it. You are missing the Dex and Con breakpoints, you
have a VERY questionable EC. Also, its generally a bad idea to have more
than 4 or 5 martial manuvers, and buying up REC isn't such a hot idea
anyways.

Also, your character has more defense against Power and Mental attacks
than he has PD or ED, while totally neglecting Flash Defense.

Here's a version that is more likely to survive. Note that he has nearly
twice the stun of your version and higher PD & ED (he still has a glass
jaw relative to the damage he deals). He does a 21d6 Strike at 12 OCV
(instead of 23d6 at 10 OCV).

I kept the "Visible" limitation for comparison purposes, but it is pretty
questionable. It is certainly wrong to take that limitation, then ask for
even more points in the form of a disad.

50 STR 40
35 DEX 75
18 CON 16
12 BODY 4
18 INT 8
11 EGO 2
23 PRE 13
20 COM 5
10 PD 0
10 ED 6
5 SPD 5
14 REC 0
36 END 0
46 STUN 0
Characteristics Cost: 174

44 Damage Class +11DC
15 +5" Superleap (=15", x4 non-combat)
31 13/13 Armor, Visible(-1/4)
8 10pts Power Defense, Visible(-1/4)
8 12pts Mental Defense, Visible(-1/4)
4 5pts Flash Defense, Visible(-1/4)
24 Life Support, Full, Visible(-1/4)
8 1 BODY Regen, Visible(-1/4)
3 Acrobatics 15-
3 Breakfall 15-
3 Climbing 15-
3 Lockpicking 15-
3 Seduction 14-
3 Stealth 15-
3 Streetwise 14-
3 PS: Detective 13-,(INT based)
3 Conversation 14-
3 Sleight Of Hand 15-
2 Private Investigator
2 Concealed Weapon Permit

Powers Cost: 176
Total Cost: 350


Note: I'm just scratching the surface of efficiency here. If you tell me more about what
youg GM typically lets in, I'll write you a real monster :-).

-Sam

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:39:03 -0600
From: John Stefanski <jstefanski@internetMCI.com>
Subject: RE: GMing tips :Length of Combat
"champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Reply-to: "jstefanski@iname.com" <jstefanski@iname.com>
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To: champ-l@omg.org

Actually one of the great challenges is role-playing during a fight. I
love the little bits players come up with as well as role-playing a villain
who just wants to grandstand.

JS

========================
JS Stefanski - jstefanski@iname.com

"aut vincere aut mori" - Conquer or Die
========================

On March 09, 1998 12:10 PM, Christopher Taylor [SMTP:ctaylor@cyberis.net]
wrote:
> At 10:10 AM 3/9/98 -0600, you wrote:
> >Regarding the length of combat, our group tends to have one or two
combats
> >every playing session. Those combats usually last about 3-4 hours and we
> >love 'em. Surprisingly, we find time to role-play and investigate the
> >scenario. Every game session lasts about 10-12 hours. I would be
> >interested in how others speed up combat, but to be honest we enjoy the
> >dice-rolling, role-playing and tactical planning (or lack of) involved
with
> >every fight.
>
> I like it too, thats a big part of the game ya know :) I think there is
a
> sort of elitism "WE only fight once every FIVE sessions hmph!" about not
> having combat, which Ive never understood. As if role playing in combat
is
> somehow inferior...
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
> Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
> -----------------------------------------------------------

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 14:46:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 350 point character Fixed Version
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

On Fri, 13 Mar 1998, Sam Bell wrote:

> 44 Damage Class +11DC

Uh, Sam? You bought him DCs but no Martial Arts, that's not allowed
(AFAIK). Of course, you could just buy 11d6 of Hand Attack for 33 points.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

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X-Sender: nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 14:47:01 -0500
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Fantasy Hero adventures sought!
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At 01:43 PM 3/13/98 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< Yeah, there's a fairly clear AD&D influence in the published FH stuff.
It's
>the only aspect of it that really bugs me. >>
>
> It's always frustrating as a publisher to read complaints about a given
>product line, knowing that we are not receiving *proposals* to reflect the
>kind of material that vocal/online consumers say that they would like to see.
>
> So, let me send out my call for Fantasy Hero adventures once again. ;)
>We're looking for 16 page adventures (about 6,000 words) for inclusion in
>Heroic Adventures 3. We're still looking for a few more adventures for this
>book.
>

I don't mean to complain, especially considering that I can't answer your
challenge with a publishable adventure (I barely have time to run my own
games), but when you initially made your call for adventures it occurred to
me that the wording was likely to produce more D&D-ish stuff.

As I recall, you asked that people avoid extensive reference to particular
countries and such so it would fit into other people's campaigns. It's
understandable that you would want adventures which many people could plug
into their own campaigns, but it seems to me a really imaginative,
distinctive fantasy adventure will not automatically fit into other
people's stories - that's what makes it fantastic. All too often,
"compatible with any fantasy RPG" still means compatible with AD&D, in
setting if not in rules.

For what it's worth, I would enjoy seeing scenarios that couldn't be used
in most campaigns, but would be fascinating to run by themselves. Even the
PC's could be provided, since the story would need to revolve around their
personalities and situations. A good fantasy novel can establish its own
world, own creatures, and own conflicts without depending on cliched
Tolkienesque Elves, Orcs, etc. - so why can't an RPG adventure? I don't
know if I'm all that representative of the market, though, so I can't
really blame game companies for going the safer route.

(Having grumbled over this entirely friendly offer, I'll go through my old
materials tonight and see if I can find anything I could make publishable.)

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:52:59 -0600
From: John Stefanski <jstefanski@internetMCI.com>
Subject: RE: GMing tips :Accessori
"champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
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I love this reaction. Is this a classic example of male personality trait
Vs female personality trait, or what.

Personally I love a good combat. I have always considered the sign of a
good GM is one who can have a combat make sense to the scenario, role-play
the villains and NPC's to the hilt and spring for lunch. (I can just hear
the Tim Taylor animal grunts beginning.)

JS

========================
JS Stefanski - jstefanski@iname.com

"aut vincere aut mori" - Conquer or Die
========================

On March 09, 1998 5:40 PM, Theala Sildorian
[SMTP:theala@shore.intercom.net] wrote:
> > This is completely alien to me...I'm the type who will go into a
> > comic shop, flip through a superhero title, and will put it back on
> > the shelf if it doesn't have a decent amount of fighting in it. I
> > sense that I'm in the minority here, but I want fighting and lots of
> > it in my Champions game, whether I'm the GM or the player (I'm
> > usually the GM). It just seems like fighting is the very essence of
> > this superhero thing, and if you take that out, you might as well be
> > role-playing normals....
> >
>
> To each his own. I want more out of ROLEplaying than that, tho. I
> want to understand my opponent--when I read a comic, I usually skim
> over the combat and get to the part where the villains are explaining
> their master plans to their underlings, or how the hero is trying to
> explain to the girlfrined why he missed dinner AGAIN.
>
> Amy
>
> ----------------
> Theala Sildorian
> http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
> Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

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From: Doc Weird <DocWeird@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 14:53:56 EST
Subject: Re: 350 point character; please check it out
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In a message dated 98-03-13 09:35:52 EST, ghoyle1@airmail.net writes:

<< Any suggestions on how I can tighten up this EC? Or an alternative to
provide lots of protection vs physical, energy, magical, and mental attacks
affordably?

Guy
>>


Hmmm Highly resistant to damage, I'd have to see if the GM will allow this
EC


15 EC Defense from hell
15 1/2 Energy Damage reduction
15 1/2 Physical Damage reduction
15 1/2 Mental Damage reduction
15 etc..armour/ pd / ed / md or whatever


I wouldn't allow it due to so many special powers, but if your first
example was ok w/ your GM, this might be a good start for ---NIGH
INVELNERABILITY



---------------------------------SPOOOOOOOOOOON!!!

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Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 11:54:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Daniel R Palacio <dandan@cats.ucsc.edu>
X-Sender: dandan@si.UCSC.EDU
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Influences & Source Material
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On Fri, 13 Mar 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:

> At 10:29 AM 3/13/1998 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
> >what particular works and creators have
> >been the biggest influences on people's games?
>
> For me, turn to the 80s X-Titles, Teen Titans, JLA/JSA crossovers,
> Legion of Super-Heroes, Infinity Inc., and just about anything superheroic
> on television (up until the current trend of anime-inspired live-action
> stuff like Power Rangers and Beetlebors).

I've found that Power Rangers has actually helped my various
campaigns in two ways:

1. Some of the monsters only need a name and costume change to become some
truly frightening supervillains.

2. It has given me many good tips on how to use cannon fodder properly.

On the other hand, American editing ruins the main selling point
of a sentai program: the fact that each series IS a superhero campaign!
Each series has a beginning, a middle, and an end. There is a natural
progression to the story. Characters grow and change. There is excellent
NPC interaction. There is a healthy dose of roleplaying AND ass-kicking to
please both types on this list. And you don't need to know a word of
Japanese to understand what's going on. If you live in a major city, most
Japanese markets will rent a few episodes for a buck or two. Definitely
worth a look.

> I've been known to cobble a plot or two from Darkwing Duck,

Me too. Did you ever see the one where Nega-Duck took over
Darkwing's homeworld, and Darkwing had to team up with the backworld
versions of Megavolt, the Liquidator, and the other members of his Rogues
Gallery?

As for other influences: One of the other players (we usually
have a rotating GM chair with myself in the role of continuity cop) has
stolen many a plot from Marvel's NEW WARRIORS. The book has been
cancelled, and the one TPB they published has been out of print for a
while, but you can find back issues really cheap.

I have taken many of my ideas from back issues of X-Men (The
Thomas/Adams years), Avengers, StormWatch (#37 and up), and JUST ABOUT
ANY JUSTICE LEAGUE COMIC. I've also found that the local paper buries
some of the strangest stories I've ever seen in the World news section.

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Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 14:54:34 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Entangles as walls
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>I'm kind of curious where the idea of using an entangle as a created wall
>came from - it seems to be less intuitive than a lot of stuff in the HERO
>system. Can anyone explain it?

If you could create, say, a glass sphere around an opponant (entangle),
what's to stop you from making a glass sphere just about anywhere to block
traffic? This is a case of not 'requiring' a PC to buy two powers (Entangle
and Uncontrolled 0 END Force Wall) to produce a single (simple) effect. For
some entangles, it clearly won't work, but those should really get the
limitation "Can't make walls (-1/4)".

Entangles generally create substances that bind the opponant. Since those
substances generally have mass and volume, they are essentially obstacles -
most of which in HERO have DEF and BODY.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

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Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 14:03:35 -0600
From: John Stefanski <jstefanski@internetMCI.com>
Subject: RE: Foreshadowing and Sub-plots
"champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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What I like to do is take current news stories and tweak them to fit into
the campaign. I simply copy from one of the various on-line news services
and paste into a template I call the Hero Gazette (I'm sure I picked that
name from someone else.) This gives the players the feel of real world
events while at the same time I insert game relevant material. By mixing
the game stuff in with other current events, I can lead the players without
giving away the plot. Of course if the players don't catch on....there is
always the hammer method.

JS

========================
JS Stefanski - jstefanski@iname.com

"aut vincere aut mori" - Conquer or Die
========================

On March 10, 1998 9:57 AM, David Stallard [SMTP:DBStallard@compuserve.com]
wrote:
> How do you (as GMs) introduce foreshadowing and sub-plots into your
> campaign without the players turning all their attention to them instead
of
> the main plot? For example, if I took a moment out of the main story to
> let the heroes know that someone has been stealing bodies from local
> graveyards, they would probably think that it was related to the main
story
> and would focus their efforts on the graveyard thing, instead of the main
> plot which is really not related to the graveyard thing.... I'm guessing
> that this example is too obvious a use of foreshadowing. How can I be
more
> subtle? I saw some messages about giving handouts that are like
newspaper
> stories, so the characters can see what else is going on, but first you
> have to have the time and inclination to sit down and write up a bunch of
> stuff like that (along with red herrings to keep them guessing), and
second
> you could still have the problem that they would go after a news story
> instead of working on the current plot.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 15:37:37 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Influences & Source Material
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Daniel R Palacio
> On the other hand, American editing ruins the main selling point
of a sentai program: the fact that each series IS a superhero campaign!
Each series has a beginning, a middle, and an end. There is a natural
progression to the story. Characters grow and change. There is excellent
NPC interaction. There is a healthy dose of roleplaying AND ass-kicking to
please both types on this list. And you don't need to know a word of
Japanese to understand what's going on. If you live in a major city, most
Japanese markets will rent a few episodes for a buck or two. Definitely
worth a look.<

I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about (don't know what a "sentai"
program is), but are you aware that the Power Rangers are a complete ripoff
of a Japanese series called Dyna-men? They used to play this (with English
dubbing) on that show Night Flight which I think was on WTBS (the Atlanta,
GA, station) a long time ago...heck, maybe Night Flight is still around, I
don't know. Anyway, I liked the Dyna-men (it was funny), but then the
Power Rangers came out and completely ruined it.

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 12:59:50 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Entangles as walls
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At 12:25 PM 3/13/1998 -0600, Sakura wrote:
>
>I'm kind of curious where the idea of using an entangle as a created wall
>came from - it seems to be less intuitive than a lot of stuff in the HERO
>system. Can anyone explain it?

Well, I don't know for sure because I wasn't there, but it's probably
something like this:
An Entangle has DEF and BODY.
A wall also has DEF and BODY, but covers an area.
Ergo, an Entangle bought with AE: Line or AE: Hexes may be defined as a
barrier instead of an entanglement.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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X-Sender: nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 15:59:53 -0500
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Penetrating / AVLD
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At 07:14 PM 3/13/98, \"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> wrote:
>On Fri, 13 Mar 1998 14:00:38 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>
>>(For those keeping track, this is officially my umpteenth question to the
>>list in the last week)
>>
>>I hope I'm not putting my foot in my mouth here, because I haven't read the
>>description of the Penetrating advantage in quite a while. Anyway, I've
>>always been uncertain about this...I can't think of an attack that should
>>ALWAYS do some damage, regardless of the defense. Can somebody put this
>>advantage into perspective?
>
>A swarm of insects (some are bound to get inside your armour), a
>super-intense heat ray (it makes your defenses so hot they burn you)
>etc.
>

Neither of those would apply to a brick with superhumanly tough skin, though.

I've always been pretty skeptical about Penetrating, too. About the only
justification for it I could see in a Champions game would be a magical
weapon or spell which is somehow cosmically ordained always to do some
damage. I suppose it might be slightly more appropriate for some other
genres, such as a fantasy campaign in which the only possible defenses were
armor-based, thus simulating effects like "qts" mentioned above.

As for examples of AVLD, it's been a while since I've used that Advantage
and I don't have the rulebook handy, but I'd say examples might include:

A Flash so intense as to cause great pain (STUN) and tissue damage (BODY)
built as an Energy Blast vs. Flash Defense.

A mystical blast that can be blunted only by mystical defenses, defined in
a given campaign as Power Defense. (Don't get me started on Power Defense...)

A magic spell (Transform, EB, whatever) that can be resisted by a
courageous heart (defensive PRE).

A hypnotic suggestion of blindness, built as Flash vs. Mental Defense.


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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:10:27 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Influences & Source Material
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At 11:54 AM 3/13/1998 -0800, Daniel R Palacio wrote:
>> I've been known to cobble a plot or two from Darkwing Duck,
>
> Me too. Did you ever see the one where Nega-Duck took over
>Darkwing's homeworld, and Darkwing had to team up with the backworld
>versions of Megavolt, the Liquidator, and the other members of his Rogues
>Gallery?

The Fearsome Five of Darkwing's world was the Friendly Four on
Negaduck's world, consisting of Megavolt, Liquidator, Bushroot, and
Quackerjack. (Negaduck himself rounded out the Fearsome Five.) This one
had what I still consider to be the best birthday party on animated
television.
Another good episode was the two-parter where the Justice Ducks banded
together for the first (and, it turned out only) time.
Or the one where Darkwing and Quackerjack had to team up against the
prankster demon.
But my favorite for plot-stealing is the episode in which Tusk-anini
pretended to go straight, and arranged to take his parole in Drake
Mallard's guest room.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:19:42 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Penetrating / AVLD
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At 02:00 PM 3/13/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>(For those keeping track, this is officially my umpteenth question to the
>list in the last week)
>
>I hope I'm not putting my foot in my mouth here, because I haven't read the
>description of the Penetrating advantage in quite a while. Anyway, I've
>always been uncertain about this...I can't think of an attack that should
>ALWAYS do some damage, regardless of the defense. Can somebody put this
>advantage into perspective?

I've used Penetrating on an RKA for a particle accelerator or
teflon-covered bullets, and on an HKA for an extremely sharp blade or a
lightsaber. I've also had a multi-setting emaser (like a laser, but
electromagnetic) with settings that were represented by Penetrating EB (the
next slot up from the standard RKA) and Penetrating RKA.

>While you're at it, how about some examples of what an AVLD attack would
>be? This is another one that has had me scratching my head at times.

A few I've used/seen:
AVLD vs Hearing Flash Defense: all sound in the area suddenly becomes
concentrated in one spot.
AVLD vs Sight Flash Defense: swirling lights in front of the victim's eyes
AVLD vs Mental Defense: as a sort of variant Ego Attack (less effective
when raw, but more effective with +3/4 or more additional Advantage tacked on)
AVLD vs non-resistant PD: a very broad-based pressure that requires soft
defenses (as opposed to the theoretical "hard" defenses of resistant PD) to
protect (this was another setting on the above-mentioned emaser)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:21:05 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Re; Brick dirty Tricks
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At 11:06 AM 3/13/1998 -0600, Sakura wrote:
>BTW, what limitations would be in effect on the tunnelling power? I'd be
>tempted to put a maximum of an inch on it - if the whatever is thicker
>than 1" you can't break through it - just because I picture this as being
>'bust through walls' not 'dig a tunnel through a mountain'. That'd be a
>pretty hefty limitation in my book...probably at least a -1, maybe more,
>since it disallows a lot of the tactical/movement abilities of Tunnelling.

Actually, I have seen both Superman and the Hulk use their fists for
regular old Tunneling, and there are probably others as well.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:38:14 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Trick problems
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At 01:36 PM 3/13/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>Message text written by Bob Greenwade
>> I don't have much of a problem with it, for the specific reason thatyou
>state that they do bother you. They enable the characters to do things
>that their raw scores would normally not allow. These things are allowable
>because they're very *narrow* things that would require the purchase of
>scores far in excess of what most campaigns would allow, just to be able to
>do one or two little tricks.<
>
>I'll give you that for the brick smashing a wall, but a speedster running
>around hitting everyone in a room multiple times (via an AE:Any and
>Autofire) isn't a narrow ability...it's something he could conceivably use
>in every battle. Still, I think I'm starting to come around...

By "narrow," I don't mean of limited use. I mean of very *specific*
use. The speedster trick you mention would otherwise take something like
36 SPD, though there'd be a cost break on Running (to keep the totals
straight, or one could always take the Costs END Limitation on it to lower
the cost.
But even if the GM wanted to allow a speedster to take a SPD over 12 (or
even allow a SPD above 7 or 8), this would allow the him to do a lot more
than just attack every Phase; he could recover from nearly any Flash in a
single Segment, he could spend two Phases Recovering END and STUN to every
Phase spent attacking and still go every Phase (which, at that, can be a
cool way to taunt you opponent, if you bring your own lawn chair and soda),
he could Brace and Set before every attack and still go more often than any
three opponents, he could... well, he could do anything that one could do
in a Phase, only multiple times each Segment. (That's a large part of why
SPD is so expensive.) Of course, one could always give the charcter extra
SPD which is Limited so that he can only move or attack with it, but even
that becomes messy.
But with Autofire STR, Autofire HA, and similar attacks, the Speedster
is given exactly one ability: that of giving multiple attacks in one Phase.
No need for fancy -- and confusing -- things like Limited SPD.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:43:28 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Ultimate Energy Projector?
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At 10:03 AM 3/13/1998 -0800, Lizard wrote:
>The various threads about stupid 'n' tricks have me wondering if there will
>ever an "Ultimate Energy Procector" book. The book should cover a wide
>range of typical EP powers, such as fire, ice, darkness, magnetism, sound,
>electricity, etc, with examples of how to do common 'tricks' with them,
>what things should/should not be permitted as 0-cost 'special effects',
>etc. (i.e, someone with the ability to shoot fire bolts should not have to
>buy another power to light a campfire, just because someone with the same
>active points in an ice bolt can't)

There's supposed to be an Energy Projector book in the works, but I have
no idea what the status is. I know Speedsters and Bricks have manuscripts
that are under review, so with luck we may see those books by the end of
summer.
I'm kinda disappointed that TUPE is taking so long to process. I'd
originally hoped that it'd be out before I had to do my final mauscript for
TUSV, since so many of the weapons in the Sourcebook are energy weapons,
but alas, it appears that I'm going to have to do without it. (For similar
reasons, I had hoped to get The Ultimate Powered Armor before finishing up
on TUSV, but that one's an even sorrier story; Stan West recently got the
assignment as something like the fourth or fifth author for it.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:46:14 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Fantasy Hero adventures sought!
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At 01:43 PM 3/13/1998 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< Yeah, there's a fairly clear AD&D influence in the published FH stuff.
It's
>the only aspect of it that really bugs me. >>
>
> It's always frustrating as a publisher to read complaints about a given
>product line, knowing that we are not receiving *proposals* to reflect the
>kind of material that vocal/online consumers say that they would like to see.
>
> So, let me send out my call for Fantasy Hero adventures once again. ;)
>We're looking for 16 page adventures (about 6,000 words) for inclusion in
>Heroic Adventures 3. We're still looking for a few more adventures for this
>book.

I would've already submitted a proposal, except that most of my stuff
tends to be extremely long. For instance, unless Bruce decides to do some
major surgery on the manscript (or have me do that surgery), TUSV is going
to rival TUSM for sheer size, if not surpass it. So the chance of me
coming in under 6K words is pretty slim.
But I will see if I can come up with something here. :-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 14:07:09 -0800
From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell)
Subject: Re: 350 point character Fixed Version
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII
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-> From susano@access.digex.net Fri Mar 13 11:49:05 1998
->
-> On Fri, 13 Mar 1998, Sam Bell wrote:
->
-> > 44 Damage Class +11DC
->
-> Uh, Sam? You bought him DCs but no Martial Arts, that's not allowed
-> (AFAIK). Of course, you could just buy 11d6 of Hand Attack for 33 points.

Good point. We allow this in my group to represent people who are either
super-ferocious, or have super-hard fists, or for any other reason do a lot
of HTH damage without using a martial technique. This is definitely on the
borderline, but since it is not particularly efficient (just buying more
strength is usually a lot better) I don't have a problem with it.

-Sam

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Entangles as walls
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 13 Mar 1998 17:14:31 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "S" == Sakura <jeffj@io.com> writes:

S> I'm kind of curious where the idea of using an entangle as a created wall
S> came from - it seems to be less intuitive than a lot of stuff in the HERO
S> system. Can anyone explain it?

Walls have three effects on Champions combat: they have volume, they have
DEF, they have Body.

There is exactly *one* power that has all of these three effects on combat:
Entangle. They have Body: you roll it on the dice every time you use the
power. They have DEF: based on the base cost of the power. They have
volume: when used as a "wall" an Entangle will fill a 1 Hex area, which may
be expanded using Area of Effect.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
\

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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 16:16:00 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Hero ID
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-

David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> writes:
>
> I don't know if the above paragraph makes any sense, but anyway, can
> somebody give me a few examples where Only in Hero ID is entirely
> appropriate?
>

Captain Marvel (the Billy Batson version) would have OIH, and instant change.
Sasquatch ( Alpha Flight) would have OIH, but NOT have instant change, since
if I remember properly, it originally took him some time to change forms.

You could do multiform for a heroic ID, non-heroic ID, but I believe that
the intention there is to have either more than one alternate form, or to
have the alternate forms be approximately equivalent, point wise speaking.

Curt

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 16:18:02 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Entangles as walls
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> >I'm kind of curious where the idea of using an entangle as a created wall
> >came from - it seems to be less intuitive than a lot of stuff in the HERO
> >system. Can anyone explain it?
> >

It seem like entangle (or transform) is the only 'create object' in HERO
anyhow

Curt
>
>

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: bastet@pop.iquest.net
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 17:30:44 -0500
From: TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net>
Subject: Re: 350 point character; please check it out
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> The Always On Limitation should be stricken; these defenses are already
>always on, by default. And I don't think I'd put any of these in an EC
>anyway, unless they had some sort of unifying Advantage of Limitation (like
>all are Usable By Others, and Cost END).

Actually, the defenses are already all persistent by default. By the book,
persistent powers can be turned off. However, it's true always on is not a
disadvantage here.



Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 18:45:47 EST
Subject: Re: Fantasy Hero adventures sought!
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<< So the chance of me coming in under 6K words is pretty slim. >>

Those kind of demands are aprt and parcel of being a professional writer. ;)

Mark @ GRG

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 11:45:26 +1000 (EST)
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Only in Hero ID
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At 01:45 PM 3/13/98 -0500, you wrote:
>I've been wondering about the limitation "Only in Hero ID". I once played
>in a campaign where they did not allow this limitation, because they said
>you could tack it onto everything and get a bunch of free points for it. I
>had never thought about it before then, but the comments they made have had
>me wondering about this limitation for years....
><snippy>
>I don't know if the above paragraph makes any sense, but anyway, can
>somebody give me a few examples where Only in Hero ID is entirely
>appropriate?
>
>

Most of them, really- remember there is usually more than one way to do
something in hero, each way with it's own nuance. OIHID is a great
way to do a simple 'shapeshift', just buy some extra prescence oihid
along wth some minor powers. Also remember that entering the 'hero' id
has it's own role-played requirememnts, which make the character more
memorable- i have a martial-artist-type guy who has both foci AND oihid.
the justification? his foci are alive, but he has to 'wake' them
with a short ceremony- an extra time didn't fit so the gm called
it oihid so he could improvise the limitation to go with different
situations.

The key point here is that when something doesn't give a quantifiable
limitation, you're supposed to role-play the effects.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 11:45:43 +1000 (EST)
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Trick problems
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>Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 12:22:03
>To: Dchamp-l@emerald.omg.org
>From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
>Subject: Re: Trick problems
>
>At 10:54 AM 3/13/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>On 3/13/98 10:16 AM David Stallard (DBStallard@compuserve.com) Said:
>>
>>>The problem I have with a brick using Tunneling to rip through walls is
>>>that it totally negates the strength of the wall. While it might take a
>>>brick several punches to get through a wall with his strength, he just goes
>>>through it instantly (assuming his Tunneling can handle the DEF of the
>>>wall). In essence, this power makes him much stronger than his STR would
>>>indicate, since his STR indicates that it would take several punches.
>>>
>>>It's the same problem with the speedster trick...it allows him to be much
>>>faster than his movement powers would indicate.
>>
>>So put a limitation on them that limits them to the levels you think they
>>should be limited to, or only buy enough effect to get what you want.
>>
>
>or how about you just get over it? differing values fer differinf people-
maybe
>your guywholifts50tons hit for 10d6, but mine hits for 12d6- why? well he
could
>just be better at hitting, or maybe his player decided that a guy lifting 50
>would do that much damage. Same goes for tunneling- if he's good at ripping
>stuff apart, why shouldn't he have a higher 'virtual strenth' in that area?
>
>
>>David A. Fair |
>>SDS International | Think Different
>>dfair@sdslink.com |
>>
>>
>>
>

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 23:08:34 -0500
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: Only in Hero ID
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> Using Only in Hero ID, it
> seems like you could buy all of your superhuman characteristics with Only
> in Hero ID and save a whole mess of points....

One player in my old game was notorious for always finding some
-1/4 Lim to put on all his powers; OIHID was one of his favorites, as was
"Not in Intense Magnetic Fields." It was a little frustrating, but I
learned to put up with it for two reasons: 1) he is an otherwise superior
player, capable of coming up with interesting characters with fascinating
backgrounds, and 2) he never complains when you occasionally exploit the
weakness.

One such character, a mentalist with OIHID on his mental abilities,
was nearly killed when his hunted, a powerful mentalist in her own right,
encountered him in a restaurant, recognized him and secretly Mind
Controlled him to prevent him from turning on his powers, after which she
simply gave him the Mental Illusion that she put a bullet in his head.
Fortunately the character survived (barely), and the player never once
complained that I had acted unfairly, although he did resolve to track down
his hunted and make her pay!

Jeff Reid

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 21:38:36 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Penetrating / AVLD
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At 11:25 AM 3/13/1998 -0600, Bryant Berggren wrote:
>> AVLD vs non-resistant PD: a very broad-based pressure that requires soft
>>defenses (as opposed to the theoretical "hard" defenses of resistant PD) to
>>protect (this was another setting on the above-mentioned emaser)
>
>I've seen this tried before, and frankly, I consider it a primo
>munchkin-lord construction. "Non-resistant PD" should be considered a
>superset of resistant PD; I don't care for the notion of turning points
>spent into a limitation.

Interestingly, it was specifically designed to address something that I
consider rather munchkiny: specifically, making every last point of a
Brick's defenses resistant. If he has 35 PD, does all 35 really *need* to
be resistant? Or couldn't he do just fine with only 25 rPD (especially
since most Killing Attacks in a 60AP world can only do 24 BODY)?
Almost all representatives of other character types have at least a
little non-resistant PD, thus giving at least a little protection.
And I think I've only seen a half-dozen characters with Hearing Flash
Defense, published or otherwise, not counting NPCs I've created myself
since seeing the "Fat Lady" Sonic Rifle in the VIPER Sourcebook.
Oh, and it's mathematically impossible, or at least sematically
impossible, for "Non-resistant PD" to be a superset of "Resistant PD."
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: voxel@mail.theramp.net
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 00:39:57 -0600
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: Penetrating / AVLD
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At 09:38 PM 3/13/98 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> Interestingly, it was specifically designed to address something that I
>consider rather munchkiny: specifically, making every last point of a
>Brick's defenses resistant. If he has 35 PD, does all 35 really *need* to
>be resistant? Or couldn't he do just fine with only 25 rPD (especially
>since most Killing Attacks in a 60AP world can only do 24 BODY)?

I'd rarely be bothered by someone who bought all their defenses resistant,
unless they were doing so by some method which would be in itself
powergamish (such as the annoying "EC: Kevlar Vest" consisting of 3 slots --
PD, ED, and damage resistance -- one player commonly used). If he really
wants to spend his points like that, that's his prerogative, and I'd
honestly be more disheartened by a player I saw analyzing the numbers to
figure out how much DEF he can "get away with" (it hints he's creating by
mechanics instead of by concept).

> Oh, and it's mathematically impossible, or at least sematically
>impossible, for "Non-resistant PD" to be a superset of "Resistant PD."

What I mean is that in any standard situation (i.e. actually covered by the
rules) where "non-resistant PD" is needed/useful (such as against normal
damage attacks), your resistant and non-resistant defenses count as a single
total.

Of course, by the book, the attack is illegal, since the description of AVLD
explicitly limits it to Flash, Mental, or Power Defense -- but I'm assuming
the presence of a house rule here. :]

--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html

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From: Sojdev <Sojdev@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 03:43:42 EST
Subject: Campaign Suggestions 2
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I am about to start a gothic horror/ dimension hopping campaign based around
175 point characters. There will be no or extremely rare encounters with the
undead. No WW opportunities here, but more along the lines of the Cthulu
mythos.

My problem is coming up with appropriate baddies to send against the PC's,
does anyone out there have any suggestions?

Sojdev@aol.com

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 02:12:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Daniel R Palacio <dandan@cats.ucsc.edu>
X-Sender: dandan@si.UCSC.EDU
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Influences & Source Material
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On Fri, 13 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote:

> I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about (don't know what a "sentai"
> program is),

Sentai is japanese for "task force" or "battle team". It is the
catchall name given to all of those Ranger-type shows (there has been one
every year since GoRanger in 1975).

but are you aware that the Power Rangers are a complete ripoff
> of a Japanese series called Dyna-men? They used to play this (with English
> dubbing) on that show Night Flight which I think was on WTBS (the Atlanta,
> GA, station) a long time ago...heck, maybe Night Flight is still around, I
> don't know. Anyway, I liked the Dyna-men (it was funny), but then the
> Power Rangers came out and completely ruined it.

Dynaman is actually the seventh Sentai show, Zyuranger (the first
season of Power Rangers) is the 16th. In Japan, they just started sentai
show #22 (Gingaman).

I never saw the dubbed Dynaman, but I saw a few of the original
Japanese episodes, and it was originally a very funny show. The sentai
programs cover the entire wackiness spectrum from all out silly (Dynaman)
to deadly serious (Jetman). From what I hear, the Night Flight episodes
were just a straight dub (like Ultraman), with no added American footage.
Zyuranger probably should have been presented that way, but I still kind
of liked the first season of Power Rangers...

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 02:14:47 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Organization: Satan's Children
Subject: Re: Influences & Source Material
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David Stallard wrote:
>
> Message text written by Daniel R Palacio
> > On the other hand, American editing ruins the main selling point
> of a sentai program: the fact that each series IS a superhero campaign!
> Each series has a beginning, a middle, and an end. There is a natural
> progression to the story. Characters grow and change. There is excellent
> NPC interaction. There is a healthy dose of roleplaying AND ass-kicking to
> please both types on this list. And you don't need to know a word of
> Japanese to understand what's going on. If you live in a major city, most
> Japanese markets will rent a few episodes for a buck or two. Definitely
> worth a look.<
>
> I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about (don't know what a "sentai"
> program is), but are you aware that the Power Rangers are a complete ripoff
> of a Japanese series called Dyna-men? They used to play this (with English
> dubbing) on that show Night Flight which I think was on WTBS (the Atlanta,
> GA, station) a long time ago...heck, maybe Night Flight is still around, I
> don't know.

I think that was what he was referring to.... My family vacationed in
Hawaii in 1976 (I was 11) and I remember watching the undubbed,
unsubtitled Dyna-men on one of the local channels.

But back to the subject, I find that I generally don't follow any
style or format when plotting my games, but the roots of my world
elements come in twisted forms from any and all forms of superhero
media, combined with additional random material.
I.E. I have one mercenary group that is a mix between the Thundercats
and "Island of Dr. Moreau". The "Dr. Moreau" figure was also the origin
for one of the PCs (a Humanoid frog).
I.E. II One adventure was ultimately realized from a character from
The Tick, a Champions supplement, and a Star Trek episode; Mantawoman's
mysterious past included a long-lost brother (listed on her sheet simply
as "Fish-boy"). Remembering Fishboy, Lost Prince of Atlantis from The
Tick, I logically concluded that Mantawoman must be the lost
Princess.... the culmination was a battle to the death between
Mantawoman and the megalomaniac leader of a villian group - who by the
way were all based around songs by the Cherry Poppin' Daddies - which
was inspired by the Gamesters of Triskellion (classic Trek).
I.E. III I also have a paranormal Cult consisting of characters from
the song "Particle Man" by They Might Be Giants, who were
semi-brainwashed by Mumm-Ra (Evil from the Thundercats), brought in
through a seed from a previous campaign (same world, 150 years earlier)
where there was an adventure involving a Cosmic Change of Office as per
Piers Anthony's "Incarnations of Immortality" series.

Almost every construct, character and piece of history in my game has
at least one tie to an outside reference, often seemingly completely
unrelated or even inappropriate, but it actually keeps quite a
consistency in my gameworld's feel and tone.

--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 02:29:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Daniel R Palacio <dandan@cats.ucsc.edu>
X-Sender: dandan@si.UCSC.EDU
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: "Let's Get Dangerous!!!" (was Re: Influences & Source Material)
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To: champ-l@omg.org

On Fri, 13 Mar 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:

> The Fearsome Five of Darkwing's world was the Friendly Four on
> Negaduck's world, consisting of Megavolt, Liquidator, Bushroot, and
> Quackerjack. (Negaduck himself rounded out the Fearsome Five.) This one
> had what I still consider to be the best birthday party on animated
> television.

Thank you. I was racking my brains trying to figure out who the
other members were. Anyway, that was actually a pretty dark episode...

> Another good episode was the two-parter where the Justice Ducks banded
> together for the first (and, it turned out only) time.

I like this one too. Besides DW, Morganna and Gizmoduck, who else
was on that team?

> Or the one where Darkwing and Quackerjack had to team up against the
> prankster demon.

I have very vague memories of this one...

> But my favorite for plot-stealing is the episode in which Tusk-anini
> pretended to go straight, and arranged to take his parole in Drake
> Mallard's guest room.

I don't think I saw this one. For me, the one where Launchpad is
mistakenly revealed to be DW proved to be rather inspirational.

And let us not forget: NINJA MONKEYS!!!

Ob-Champs: Did "The Zodiac Conspiracy" come out before "Darkwing Duck"?
Because Doug Shuler's Taurus looks an awful lot like Taurus Bulba...

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 02:39:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Daniel R Palacio <dandan@cats.ucsc.edu>
X-Sender: dandan@si.UCSC.EDU
cc: Hero System Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Influences & Source Material
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On Sat, 14 Mar 1998, Captain Spith wrote:

> I think that was what he was referring to.... My family vacationed in
> Hawaii in 1976 (I was 11) and I remember watching the undubbed,
> unsubtitled Dyna-men on one of the local channels.

Not to nitpick, but the show you saw was Goranger (1975-1977).
Dynaman debuted in 1983. To be honest, even I have trouble telling the
various shows apart after a while. But I love them so...

a villian group - who by the
> way were all based around songs by the Cherry Poppin' Daddies

Wow. I thought I was the only one who based characters on songs.
I find that Hendrix works best for me.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 05:36:41 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: mlnunn@blue.net
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
Subject: Re: Influences & Source Material
Cc: Hero System Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org>
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To: champ-l@omg.org

> a villian group - who by the
>> way were all based around songs by the Cherry Poppin' Daddies
>
> Wow. I thought I was the only one who based characters on songs.
>I find that Hendrix works best for me.

With out question or argument, Blue Oyster Cult is the best band to borrow
ideas from.
They have had at least two comic based on their stuff.

The best band for character names has to be Kiss...
I have used all of the following...

Dr Love, Mr Speed, Plaster Caster, Duece, Strutter, God Of Thunder,
2,000 Man (Yeah I know it's a Stone's song, but Kiss's version is the one I
like)
The Elder, Firehouse, Unholy, plus some others I can't think of at the moment.

Rush is a good source too...

I could go on forever.
Michael
Rising Force Publications
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist recently updated web site...
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm

"You have never lived until you have almost died.
And for those who fight for it,
life has a flavor the protected never know"
- anonymous

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 9:33:10 -0500
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Only in Hero ID
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

"Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com> said:

> One player in my old game was notorious for always finding s
ome
-1/4 Lim to put on all his powers; OIHID was one of his favorites, as was=

"Not in Intense Magnetic Fields." <


Ah, that favorite limitation of those desperate for points, "Not in
Intense Magnetic Fields." I had one Champions campaign where three
different members of the group had that limitation on at least
some of their powers. One was an android who couldn't fully function
in those circumstances; one was an electrical hero who not only
had the limitation on some of his powers but also had a
Susceptibility to intense magnetic fields; the third hero, I believe,
had a sort of battlesuit. Of course, each of these heroes also had
Hunteds who figured out their limitations in the course of the
campaign. More and more battles started taking place in intense
magnetic fields, and the players who'd thought of NiIMF as an easy
way to save points started to reconsider...

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 08:41:47 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Errata on HERO web site?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Has there been any mention of making errata centrally available at
herogames.com? I know some of it was online at Red October; I don't know
if errata was ever published for some of the supplements. Hero Almanac I,
for example?

Page 6 asks readers to use the feedback form in the back of the book to let
the HERO folks know what we did and didn't like. There was no such form.
No big deal.

Page 17 describes "Power Used On Target" this way:
"This +1 Advantage on a power means that the owner of the power is
usable by any one person that you target with the power. The owner
of the power controls it and pays any END cost. The target has no
choice about being subject to this power."

The owner of the power is usable by any one person? Right.

Page 53 describes an attack that *effects* spirits. Okay, a sufficiently
lethal attack might indeed *cause* spirits, but that clearly wasn't what
was intended.

Other misspellings and typos abounded, but most of them didn't interfere
with the reader's understanding of the section, or change the meaning of
what was being said.

Damon

|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|****************** Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs *******************|
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Damon & Peni's homepages: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3401/ |
| Children's Books -- Dolls -- X-Files -- Pulp Magazines |
| Worthy Causes -- Computer -- Atlanta -- All Human Knowledge |
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 9:48:01 -0500
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Influences & Source Material
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Daniel R Palacio <dandan@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote:


>On Sat, 14 Mar 1998, Captain Spith wrote:

a villian group - who by the
> way were all based around songs by the Cherry Poppin' Daddies

Wow. I thought I was the only one who based characters on songs.
I find that Hendrix works best for me. <


I've had a number of song-inspired characters. The Nowhere Man was
a villain with Invisibility and many "limbs" of Telekinesis - lots
of fun for the PC's to deal with, and he quoted pop songs as he
frustrated them. I had a Jumpin' Jack Flash well before I read
Wild Cards. I also had a Dark Champions character whom I've
mentioned before, Dr. Morlock, whose inspirations included "Ziggy
Stardust" - he was a burnt out rock star who'd supposedly died of
a drug overdose but had been living in the sewers of Hudson City
for 20 years.

As a PC, I once encountered a villain named Sting, who led a squad
of henchmen equipped with blue Turtle armor.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Michael Sprague <msprague@eznet.net>
Subject: RE: Only in Hero ID
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 10:02:06 -0500
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> "Not in Intense Magnetic Fields."

The toughest character in my current campaign is cyborg, and many of this
powers use this Limitation. In preparation for the campaign, one of the
adventures had some characters that just didn't fit into my game world. I
had written up a super villain, who exuded an Intense Electromagnetic Field
(Change Environment), and decided to toss her into the adventure.

She was very average in her power levels overall, but she seriously trashed
the cyborg character and he actually hid from her. She could have easily
been taken out ( an eventually was) by any of the rest of the hero team.
Best part was that she was one of the few villains who escaped justice at
the end of the adventure ... and the player of this really tough character
fears her return.

~ Mike

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 08:10:31 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: "Let's Get Dangerous!!!" (was Re: Influences & Source
Material)
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At 02:29 AM 3/14/1998 -0800, Daniel R Palacio wrote:
>> Another good episode was the two-parter where the Justice Ducks banded
>> together for the first (and, it turned out only) time.
>
> I like this one too. Besides DW, Morganna and Gizmoduck, who else
>was on that team?

I don't remember their names, but one was the resident sea queen ("I'm
not a duck!") and he other was the big guy who'd been turned into a
dinosaur ("I *used* to be a duck!").

>> But my favorite for plot-stealing is the episode in which Tusk-anini
>> pretended to go straight, and arranged to take his parole in Drake
>> Mallard's guest room.
>
> I don't think I saw this one. For me, the one where Launchpad is
>mistakenly revealed to be DW proved to be rather inspirational.

Oh, yeah... What a thought, letting the public "discover" that your
super identity actually belongs to your Follower, or your DNPC....

>Ob-Champs: Did "The Zodiac Conspiracy" come out before "Darkwing Duck"?
>Because Doug Shuler's Taurus looks an awful lot like Taurus Bulba...

I think ZC may have come out between the two Taurus Bulba episodes.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 98 16:40:08
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Campaign Suggestions 2
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On Sat, 14 Mar 1998 03:43:42 EST, Sojdev wrote:

>I am about to start a gothic horror/ dimension hopping campaign based around
>175 point characters. There will be no or extremely rare encounters with the
>undead. No WW opportunities here, but more along the lines of the Cthulu
>mythos.
>
>My problem is coming up with appropriate baddies to send against the PC's,
>does anyone out there have any suggestions?

Read Horror Hero and CoC.

qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 12:00:40 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: "Let's Get Dangerous!!!" (was Re: Influences & Source Material)
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>>> But my favorite for plot-stealing is the episode in which Tusk-anini
>>> pretended to go straight, and arranged to take his parole in Drake
>>> Mallard's guest room.

I've always wanted to run a villain a la Gumbolia Jake (I have no clue how
to spell it); I always thought he was the coolest Darkwing Duck villian. And
I just loved his Alligator sidekick/pet - the episode where he pays off
Granny Whammy to save his own hide (literally!) is my all-time favorite.

Speaking of great Disney villians, has anyone ever used Don Carnage? (his
magnificent self?). <sigh> I miss Darkwing Duck and Tale Spin...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 09:09:25 -0800
From: Clinton Chard <chud@pioneer.net>
Subject: Re: Only in Hero ID
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David Stallard wrote:

> I've been wondering about the limitation "Only in Hero ID". I once played
> in a campaign where they did not allow this limitation, because they said
> you could tack it onto everything and get a bunch of free points for it. I
> had never thought about it before then, but the comments they made have had
> me wondering about this limitation for years....
>
> I think maybe the BBB uses a Thor-like character as an example...I'm not
> sure, but that's always the image that comes to mind. Anyway, with this
> limitation, his Secret ID is not able to use any powers, but once he
> becomes a hero he gets this big hammer and some powers. But how does the
> secret ID *become* the hero? Does he have "Instant Change" which is
> available at all times, and then everything else is Only in Hero ID? It
> seems to make more sense to use Multiform, where one form is the Secret ID
> and the other is the god of thunder. Maybe what I'm trying to say (I'm not
> sure, myself) is that Only in Hero ID seems to be a way of doing Multiform
> but without writing up two character sheets. Using Only in Hero ID, it
> seems like you could buy all of your superhuman characteristics with Only
> in Hero ID and save a whole mess of points....
>
> I don't know if the above paragraph makes any sense, but anyway, can
> somebody give me a few examples where Only in Hero ID is entirely
> appropriate?

That's how I've always interpreted the rule. Imagine this, if you will. I was
in a game where a player bought a power suit OIF that was OIHID (He could
mentally teleport the suit directly onto his body from his storage cell back at
the base, bought as Instant Change). He was unstoppable! He had so many points
left over that he didn't know what to do with them all. If I was the GM I never
would allow such a blatant use of POWER GAMING!

--
"Contrariwise," Continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be; and if it
were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." -Lewis Carroll

Clinton Chard


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: ural.owlnet.rice.edu: chip owned process doing -bs
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 11:18:44 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Reply-To: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Only in Hero ID
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Fri, 13 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote:

> I don't know if the above paragraph makes any sense, but anyway, can
> somebody give me a few examples where Only in Hero ID is entirely
> appropriate?

As a GM, I only allow "Only in Hero ID" for powers where the character is
clearly limited by not being able to use it in normal ID. For example, if
a character spends a good amount of campaign time in normal ID (FBI
agent), which he does in order to gain information and access that he
might not be able to get in hero ID, and can occasionally get into a lot
of trouble, yet is watched, and he's trying to hide the fact that he's a
superhero from the FBI, the only in hero ID is appropriate. Characters do
not have to have a secret ID for only in hero ID to be a limitation. For
example, even a superhero with instant change and no secret ID is limited
by having his Danger Sense bought "Only in hero ID." Other defenses

You are astute in observing that for many concepts, multiform is more
appropriate. Try asking the following questions:

Only in hero ID is only appropriate if...
- the character spends a significant amount of (campaign) time in normal
ID...
- the character's normal ID can get into situations where he wants to use
the power...
- the power is really unavailable or significantly less useful while in
normal ID (i.e. the hero can't simply change into hero ID with no
repercussions and use the power--i.e. the power is a defense, the hero
doesn't have instant change, or has to protect a secret ID, etc.)
- the character's hero ID only offers the character the use of the limited
powers, and doesn't make too many significant changes (like to psych
lims, other disadvantages, many characteristics, and so on... for these
concepts, multiform is more appropriate, and cleaner).
- the character's hero ID isn't coming from the possession of some item
that can be taken away (use focus instead... don't use focus and OIHID
together on the same power).

Some on the list have argued that "Only in HERO ID" should be listed under
"Conditional Power Limitation," as it was in previous editions. Whether or
not this is so, it makes since to compare OIHID to other conditional
limitations. The BBB lists two, "only during laylight" and "only while
tocuhing the ground" at -1/4.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: ural.owlnet.rice.edu: chip owned process doing -bs
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 11:40:47 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Reply-To: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Light Controller: Spectrum
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

In response to the questions regarding light controllers, here's the EVIL
campaign's light controller superhero and Florida's champion, Spectrum. He
once stopped EVIL's attempt to mind-control the kids at Disneyworld while
they took rides in the park. His powers revolve around the ability to make
light coherent. Please, no gratuitous comparisons to what's low or high
for your campaign; just cannibalize for ideas, use, or change to taste.
Obviously, a superhero in a campaign meant for villains, with my
aggressive stance in fighting characteristic inflation (3.5 average
speed), is not going to mesh instantly with published characters or your
campaign.

+-----------------------------------+----------------------------------------+
|VALUE CHARACTERISTIC COST BASE PTS|NAME: Robert Summers |
| 10 Strength x1 10 0|HERO ID: Spectrum |
| 15 Dexterity x3 10 15|PLAYER: |
| 15 Constitution x2 10 10|----------------------------------------+
| 12 Body x2 10 4| PTS POWERS END|
| 15 Intelligence x1 10 5| 3 SC: Optics 12-,(INT based) |
| 14 Ego x2 10 8| 3 SC: Laser Science 12-,(INT |
| 12 Presence x1 10 2| based) |
| 12 Comeliness x1/2 10 1| 3 PS: Laser Scientist 12-,(INT |
| 2 Physical Defens x1 2 0| based) |
| 3 Energy Defense x1 3 0| 1 Superhero License |
| 3 Speed x10 2.5 5| 5 12- Contact: Florida Police |
| 5 Recovery x2 5 0| 5 Stealth 13- |
| 30 Endurance x1/2 30 0| 5 Money |
| 25 Stun x1 25 0| 15 5 Levels: EB, RKA, Darkness, |
| Characteristics Cost: 50| tight group |
+-----------------------------------+ * = Powers originate from light |
|DISADVANTAGES BASE: 100+PTS| sources,Only with an EM source |
|Normal Stats 20| present(-1/4),[Indirect(+3/4), |
|DNPC,"Alicia Summers, wife", 10| any location and direction,Only |
| normal,appear 8- | from an EM source(-2) |
|Hunted,"EVIL, The Cabal, and 25| ** = Strong EM source,Strong EM |
| independent Supervillains", | source must be present(-1/4) |
| more powerful,non-combat | *** = Heavy EM source,Direct |
| influence,harsh,appear 11- | sunlight or heavy EM source must |
|Secret ID,"Robert Summers" 15| be present(-1/2) |
|Rivalry,"Argon Labs", 5| 5 IR Vision (Light) |
| professional | 5 UV Vision (Light) |
|Rep,"Famous Florida Superhero", 5| 30 EC (Light) (30),"Photon |
| occur 8- | Manipulation" |
|Susc,"604nm resonance light", 20|20a) Invisibility (Light),Sight |
| uncommon,per phase,2D6 | Group,no fringe,Extra Time |
| | (-1/2),0 END(+1/2) 0|
| |15b) 1" Darkness (Light),Sight Group, |
| | Extra Time(-1/2),14- Activation |
| | (-1/2),Usable Against Others(+1 |
| | 3/4),x8 Increased Mass,Cancel: |
| | Out of LOS or range of Spectrum, |
| | 1/2 END(+1/4) 3|
| |10c) 0/40 Force Field,Only vs. |
| | light-based attacks(-2),0 END |
| | (+1/2) 0|
| | 77 MP (Light) (75) *,"Make LS |
| | Coherent" |
| | 6u -7 Images (Light),Sight Group, |
| | Radio Group,x8 Increased Area, |
| | 12- Activation(-3/4) 13|
| | 10u 12 1/2D6 Dispel (Light), |
| | "Darkness/Light Powers",vs SFX |
| | (one power),0 END(+1/2), |
| | Explosion(+1/2),Personal |
| | Immunity(+1/4),Trigger(+1/4), |
| | Desc: Attack by darkness/light |
| | powers 0|
| | 7u PKG (Light),[+1"/DC Explosion |
| | (+3/4),No DFC |
| | cancels(-1/4),2D6 Flash (Light), |
| | Sight Group,1D6 Flash (Light) |
| | **,1D6 Flash (Light) *** 12|
| | 6u PKG,No Knockback(-1/4),8D6 EB |
| | (Light),4D6 EB (Light) **," |
| | (12d6)",3D6 EB (Light) ***," |
| | (15d6)" 13|
| | 5u PKG (Light),Extra Time(-1/2),No |
| | Knockback(-1/4),2 1/2D6 RKA |
| | (Light),"Laser",1D6+1 RKA |
| | (Light) **,"(4d6)",1D6 RKA |
| | (Light) ***,"(5d6)" 13|
| Disadvantages Total : 100| 236 : Powers Total |
| Experience Spent + 86| 50 + Characteristic Total |
| Total Points = 286| 286 = Total Cost |
+-----------------------------------+----------------------------------------+


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 09:50:17 -0800
From: Clinton Chard <chud@pioneer.net>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Influences & Source Material
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org



BILL SVITAVSKY wrote:

> Daniel R Palacio <dandan@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 14 Mar 1998, Captain Spith wrote:
>
> a villian group - who by the
> > way were all based around songs by the Cherry Poppin' Daddies
>
> Wow. I thought I was the only one who based characters on songs.
> I find that Hendrix works best for me. <
>
> I've had a number of song-inspired characters. The Nowhere Man was
> a villain with Invisibility and many "limbs" of Telekinesis - lots
> of fun for the PC's to deal with, and he quoted pop songs as he
> frustrated them. I had a Jumpin' Jack Flash well before I read
> Wild Cards. I also had a Dark Champions character whom I've
> mentioned before, Dr. Morlock, whose inspirations included "Ziggy
> Stardust" - he was a burnt out rock star who'd supposedly died of
> a drug overdose but had been living in the sewers of Hudson City
> for 20 years.
>
> As a PC, I once encountered a villain named Sting, who led a squad
> of henchmen equipped with blue Turtle armor.

The best character I ever created was the incredibly dense Heavy Mettle!

--
"Contrariwise," Continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be; and if it
were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." -Lewis
Carroll

Clinton Chard


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 98 19:33:02
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Campaign Suggestions 2
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

On Sat, 14 Mar 98 16:40:08, qts wrote:

>On Sat, 14 Mar 1998 03:43:42 EST, Sojdev wrote:
>
>>I am about to start a gothic horror/ dimension hopping campaign based around
>>175 point characters. There will be no or extremely rare encounters with the
>>undead. No WW opportunities here, but more along the lines of the Cthulu
>>mythos.
>>
>>My problem is coming up with appropriate baddies to send against the PC's,
>>does anyone out there have any suggestions?
>
>Read Horror Hero and CoC.
>
>qts

Also, take a look at Champions in 3D, which gives info on running a multi-dim
campaign. It also describes several alternate dimensions, one of which is a kinda of
CoC-like work.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
Subject: Random Character Generation
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 11:54:36 -0800
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org


I've posted my random character generator at
http://www.geocities.com/area51/cavern/1905/hero03.html.

What's the point of randomly generating superheroes in a point-based
system? It's quick, and it can help stimulate creativity.

Dave Mattingly
mattingly@bigfoot.com

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: ural.owlnet.rice.edu: chip owned process doing -bs
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 14:12:15 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Random Character Generation
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On Sat, 14 Mar 1998, Dave Mattingly wrote:

>
> I've posted my random character generator at
> http://www.geocities.com/area51/cavern/1905/hero03.html.
>
> What's the point of randomly generating superheroes in a point-based
> system? It's quick, and it can help stimulate creativity.

Thanks, Dave, it's a great set of articles.

The URL I think you meant was:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/1905/haym03.html

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Random Character Generation
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 12:26:35 -0800
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Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:
>The URL I think you meant was:
>http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/1905/haym03.html

Doh! Goofy me. Yes, of course that's the right URL.

Thanks, Darien.


Dave Mattingly

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 12:32:53 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Various questions
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

David Stallard wrote:
> Back to the Force Wall/Entangle thing...it seems to me that an Entangle
> with AE:Line, defined as a barrier, could always take the place of a Force
> Wall. You wouldn't be able to form a dome with it, but the END savings
> would more than make up for this. This seems like a "dirty trick" that I'm
> not sure I'd allow, but it certainly would be effective. You could raise
> barriers all over the place since you wouldn't need to save END for barrier
> maintenance.

BBB, page 68. An entangle can also be used to create a wall in one hex,
depending on the special effects of the entangle.

Back in the early versions of Champions and they produced a short lived
comic, one of the heroes, the female ice maker, had a force wall defined as a wall
of ice (with 4 charges, IIRC but thats another topic). Foxbat came across one of
them and tapped on it. The point? Force wall, once breached, goes down along its
entire length. Not a very good wall. The entangle power has as one of its
attributes, the ability to fill a hex and stay around, if within special effects.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 12:50:12 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: 350 point character; please check it out
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To: champ-l@omg.org

TokyoMark wrote:
>
> > The Always On Limitation should be stricken; these defenses are already
> >always on, by default. And I don't think I'd put any of these in an EC
> >anyway, unless they had some sort of unifying Advantage of Limitation (like
> >all are Usable By Others, and Cost END).
>
> Actually, the defenses are already all persistent by default. By the book,
> persistent powers can be turned off. However, it's true always on is not a
> disadvantage here.

Actually, I have sometime used power defence and ego defence as always
on, moreso the power defence. One of the people I game with is very found of
adjustment powers and I have defined the power defence of one of my
characters as acting against the aids. Hence it is a limitation. Ego defence,
always on, interfers with mindscan, telepathy and perhaps mindlink from your
companions.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 13:08:05 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Tricks for Light EC?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

David Stallard wrote:
>
> One of my players is planning to build a character who can control light.
> He has a few older versions of this character, and basically he just has a
> variety of Energy Blasts and a "sword of light" which I think is just used
> for Missile Deflection. Oh, and he has the obligatory Flash. I'm sure
> there are lots of creative things that he could be doing with light...any
> suggestions? I already plan to have him take a look at Change Environment
> and Images (maybe the old one had Images, I'm not sure). The only light
> controllers I can think of from comics are Dazzler and Captain Marvel
> (although apparantly she has changed her name...I picked up the latest
> Avengers and she has a totally new name which is unrelated to the old one).
> All I know about Dazzler is that she converts sound to light and can blast
> people with it or blind them. With Captian Marvel, I know she can blast
> people and she can turn herself into energy and fly at incredible speeds.
> I guess that also implies Desolidification. Anyway, any other ideas you
> have would be great.

My most recent character is made of light, he just needs a rewrite after
the first adventure. What he has

Teleportation - must be able to see target area.
Invisibility - shift the light into a spectrum not normally visiable
Darkness - great to block those targeting lasers without anybody knowing
Hi range radio Rx/Tx - yes you too can be television
Regeneration - if a light source is available

Other things
Solar powered end reserve?
Damage reduction vs light attacks
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 16:41:54 -0600 (CST)
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From: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net>
Subject: Re: Campaign Suggestions 2
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>From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
>Date: Sat, 14 Mar 98 16:40:08
>Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
>Priority: Normal
>Subject: Re: Campaign Suggestions 2
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>To: champ-l@omg.org
>
>On Sat, 14 Mar 1998 03:43:42 EST, Sojdev wrote:
>
>>I am about to start a gothic horror/ dimension hopping campaign based around
>>175 point characters. There will be no or extremely rare encounters with the
>>undead. No WW opportunities here, but more along the lines of the Cthulu
>>mythos.
>>
>>My problem is coming up with appropriate baddies to send against the PC's,
>>does anyone out there have any suggestions?
>
>Read Horror Hero and CoC.
>
>qts
>
>Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
>
>
>
You might even want to consider Creatures of the Night
or looking into buying some cthulu or Kult books.


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 15:03:16 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Only in Hero ID
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>
> > I've been wondering about the limitation "Only in Hero ID". I once played
> > in a campaign where they did not allow this limitation, because they said
> > you could tack it onto everything and get a bunch of free points for it. I
> > had never thought about it before then, but the comments they made have had
> > me wondering about this limitation for years....
> >
> > I don't know if the above paragraph makes any sense, but anyway, can
> > somebody give me a few examples where Only in Hero ID is entirely
> > appropriate?
>
> That's how I've always interpreted the rule. Imagine this, if you will. I was
> in a game where a player bought a power suit OIF that was OIHID (He could
> mentally teleport the suit directly onto his body from his storage cell back at
> the base, bought as Instant Change). He was unstoppable! He had so many points
> left over that he didn't know what to do with them all. If I was the GM I never
> would allow such a blatant use of POWER GAMING!

I allow this lim in my games. But since I don't use a max point limit,
a base points
setting, or an active points limit; all the methods designed to squeeze
more points in are
completley useless.
What I do give is a power level setting. In terms of averages (again no
max's or min's
given). Such as stating ave DC of X, ave Speed of Y, disads up to
concept, rest is base points,
etc...

OIHID has a valid 'special effect'. Especially if you consider it comes
from an earlier
edition of the game than multiform.
I tend to see multiform as allowing one to have two full and complete,
possibly
seperate individuals who are connected somehow. Such as a Dr. Jeckyl and
Mr. Hyde scenerio,
or MiricleMan (A Shazam type character, his Eclipse Comics version in
the late 80's shows why
it was multiform and not OIHID, the second form would be stored in a
limbo dimension full of
hundreds of such forms).
OIHID however fits the Thor, Sailor Moon, and similar concepts where
the two people are
the same, only powered and not powered.

One of the key diferences in the two is damage carryover. In OIHID
damage to one persona
is damage to the other.
In multiform, short of death, damage to one form has no effect on the
other (unlike
duplication).
Though in some cases, like a Dr. Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde concept you'll
want a limitation to
do damage carryover but still use multiform to reflect the differing
disadvantages and skills.

--
Rook ¿Õ ¿ë ±â
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role
Playing

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X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 19:34:44 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: One for all...
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...and all for one heck of a Presence Attack.

I saw the current production of "The Man in the Iron Mask" today. More
than one good PRE Attack in the movie, but one of the two most memorable was

[SPOILER ALERT! SPOILER ALERT! SPOILER ALERT!]

when Our Heroes are trapped in the Bastille, one exit barred but being
battered down from the other side by guards, their only other exit cut off
by the evil King Louis and a score of young Musketeers. Figuring the
situation hopeless, the good guys decide if they must die they may as well
die in a blaze of glory; they realize that these young punks were raised on
their own exploits, and that they can exploit that advantage in combat.

They come out from cover and charge the group, running straight into a
barrage of matchlock pistol fire. That fire was delayed at least two
phases, though, either by the young Musketeers' reluctance to fire on their
boyhood heroes or by the sheer surprise of the situation. Louis had to
give the order to fire twice, and actually grab one of his men the second
time to make sure they were paying attention. The guns all went off,
pointed in the general direction of the former Four Musketeers and the
title character, Phillipe.

That many matchlocks going off at once produces a lot of smoke in an
enclosed space, and several breathless seconds passed while the smoke
gradually thinned...to reveal all five men still standing. Oh, some of the
pistol balls must have hit, but apparently nothing vital. The heroes were
fairly ragged looking by then, and slightly unsteady, but there were no
visible wounds. Just the fact they were still upright was enough to make
the entire group of Louis's men surrender on the spot.

Damon

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