Week Ending May 16, 1998
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 00:36:44 +0800
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au>
Reply-To: gazza@wantree.com.au
Organization: Only One Inc.
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Alternative to END Reserve
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> I know there are all sorts of easy ways to avoid this whole thing. Life
> Support is Persistent and doesn't normally use END anyway, so I could
> ignore the END Reserve and just use LS. That, however, would allow for an
> indefinite supply of food, water, air and heat. I could apply a generic
In many cases, I think this is appropriate. Life Support issues are usually
handled this way in fiction; in general, they either work flawlessly (and
invisibly, so that you don't worry about it) or else they fail in a fairly
dangerous fashion. Sure, you get the odd throwaway Star Trek line like "divert
unnecessary power from life support to the shields", but this is just
cinematic, really. Life Support is rarely ever described as something that
needs recharging as often as (for example) weapons or shields. I'd almost say
that you could use a limitation such as "does not work when END Reserve is at
0" or "Requires recharging once per week" as a -0 limitation (MAYBE a -1/4 in
the first case).
This is not to belittle the actual concept, though - I just thought I'd mention
that strict adherence to the 'Life Support shouldn't be an endless supply of
food and air' idea is perhaps going a little too far in 'realism'. YMMV.
> To set up a Materiel Reserve a character purchases Units (of fuel, food or
> whatever) and in most cases "REC". Each Unit costs 1 character point and
> is assumed to be sufficient to supply one character (or vehicle) for one
> day, though if the GM and player agree the Units can last for one hour, or
> whatever time period is both convenient and appropriate. The GM should
> adjust the unit costs as he sees fit for
> Materiel Reserves held by Bases, on the assumption that a Base will usually
> consume far more of anything than a single character or vehicle.
This is an interesting idea, but again I think I don't think I'd charge points
for this (certainly not in a 4-colour or even gritty superhero game; possibly
if I were playing in some sort of post-holocaust/survival genre). This is
(IMHO) like charging for an AM/FM radio in a Vehicle - it's a little too far. A
typical base might want food for 5 people. Even 1 day's worth of food now is
going to cost 5 points (which you would probably prefer to spend somewhere
else).
IMHO, this is the sort of thing Hero characters ought to be able to use money
for, rather than character points.
> Air Supply Reserve, 4 Units (one Unit/hour), REC 4 Units/hour
> (Must refill at base -2) Real Cost: 5
This is not significantly less than Life Support: Does Not Need To Breathe. It
is the same cost as Life Support: Breathe Underwater.
What is my point? Well, in my experience once you start charging points for
things, the players become (understandably) very conservative about what sort
of things that they will spend those points on. I don't believe "normal world"
technology need cost points. I would extend this principle even to guns in a
superhero game (most supervillains aren't bothered by guns, so it hardly seems
overbalancing to let PsychoGuy carry an automatic pistol).
It's nice for characters to have such things, but I'm not sure I agree that
they should have to pay for them.
--
GAZZA (gazza@wantree.com.au; http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza)
"To know others is wisdom. To know oneself is enlightment."
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 00:37:53 +0800
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au>
Reply-To: gazza@wantree.com.au
Organization: Only One Inc.
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: I am returning...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> Well, you sure ought to remember me.... and it's great to have you
> back, Gazza!
> (I even remember your real name... shhhhhh!) ;-]
Heya, Bob. Glad to be back.
And it's not like my real name is any sort of secret.
--
GAZZA (gazza@wantree.com.au; http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza)
"To know others is wisdom. To know oneself is enlightment."
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Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 14:58:34 -0400
To: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net&>
hero-l@sysabend.org
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Alternative to END Reserve
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 08:11 AM 5/9/98 -0500, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
[snip - long involved talk about END Reserve]
>I also thought about using Charges
>of LS, but as is often the case with Charges, especially Continuing, any
>reasonable number of them turns into an Advantage rather than a Limitation;
>it makes no sense to pay more for an escape pod that will keep you alive
>for 10 days than you'd have to pay for one than would sustain you
>indefinitely.
I know you threw out limited LS but if you do not want it to cost more than
normally persistant LS, I don't see how you have a choice:
LS food, vacuum, breathing: (-1) only 10 days protection for one person
(-1/2) only works in Life Pod.
[snip]
>To set up a Materiel Reserve a character purchases Units (of fuel, food or
>whatever) and in most cases "REC". Each Unit costs 1 character point and
>is assumed to be sufficient to supply one character (or vehicle) for one
>day, though if the GM and player agree the Units can last for one hour, or
>whatever time period is both convenient and appropriate. The GM should
>adjust the unit costs as he sees fit for
So, for 5 character points, I don't need to eat, sleep or excrete. But for
4 character points, I can eat, and only eat, for 4 days. Needless to say,
I think this idea is a bit buggy.
If you persist in this idea, I suggest you use the time chart. 1 CP = 1
day of rations for one person, increase it up the time chart for each
additional CP. So a month's rations for one person would be 3 CP and a
year would be 5 CP. (Still sounds like a bad deal to me.) Increase the
number of people by dividing, thus 4 people could survive for a week on a
3CP Food Reserve, as could 30 people for a day. Even this is too
expensive. Maybe make the base 1 CP = 1 year of food.
Automatic REC would just be an additional 1 per square of 5 people.
>Looking at what's *intended* above, rather than what's actually in place so
>far, and realizing that the concept is not particularly well defined yet,
>is this both legitimate and sufficiently distinct from END Reserve to
>warrant its use? At this point, please address the CONCEPT as well as the
>present EXECUTION of the idea. I rather expect most people will think this
>is a waste of time, and I know you will feel free to say so, but I would
>also like to hear constructive criticism from those people (if any) who
>think the notion may possibly have some small merit.
I don't think it has a lot of merit. Even a Transform would cost less and
if I were creating a machine-which-makes-food-or-air, I would use
Transform. But I cannot imagine that you would use a power to model such a
machine which did not replenish itself. A device which holds food without
making food is a closet or a refrigerator (change environment).
Also, I don't think that eating should be modelled by character points.
("Good thing we saved the day, Captain Quad, otherwise we wouldn't have
enough character points to buy food for today.")
>And please remember to cut the parts of the above you aren't responding to;
>if you think the whole idea is a waste of time, snip the entire message.
If someone responds, it obviously isn't a waste of time, to them.
Joe
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: What would you do with 15 pts?
Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 16:09:11 -0700
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From: John Desmarais <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
>
<snip>
> The base form must be the larger (points-wise) of the forms, so your
"other form" would
> have to be build on (at most) the same number of points your are
minus the cost of the
> multiform power.
>
Ah, but who says the original me is the base form? After all, many
superheroes gained multiforms where the more powerful form was "base",
but not the original.
Filksinger
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: What would you do with 15 pts?
Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 16:11:13 -0700
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> From: Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin <griffin@txdirect.net>
>
> I always thought time
> > travel would be great, if only so I could pick up stuff like
> original
> > Shadow pulps for 10 cents, never have to worry about missing TV
> shows for
> > the series I regularly tape or an issue of a comic I collect, and
> being
> > able to buy minor little things that aren't around anymore, like
> Original
> > original Coke, tuna pot pies, 25-cent-a-gallon gas, etc.
>
When it comes to using time travel to it's fullest, you are way
behind.
First, you walk into your bedroom, where your future self left a large
sum of money in $20 gold pieces. Now, time travel to 1920, after
researching the stock market. Get fake identification. Turn over the
money and careful instructions to a reputable Swiss bank that still is
solvent today. When stocks that you know will be valuable are about to
go public (Microsoft, IBM, Starbucks), go to the time before they are
about to go public, and contact your bank by phone or mail (never in
person, as you won't age).
Arrange to fake your death, leaving an iron clad will naming yourself
as
beneficiary, preferably using a living trust. Set it up so they
contact
you concerning the will tomorrow, then wait for tomorrow. If you are
impatient, time travel to tomorrow.
Poof, richer than Bill Gates.
> > Sadly, it can't be done for 15 points if I observe the -1
Limitation
> > maximum, so I'll have to pick something else.
>
Cumulative Transformation, rock to time machine.:)
>Definitely not Flight. I'm
> > not surprised many of you chose that, but I have this problem with
> heights.
> > How about:
> >
> > 5 Cramming
> > 5 Wealth (Well Off, up to $500K/year)
> > 5 Ranged Sense: Taste
> >
> > Chris, consider that last one in light of your Contacts... ;)
>
Considering that this would be nothing more than an undetectable
ability
to taste the women, I think I'd prefer to do it slightly
differently....
Filksinger
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Mailer/Browser(was Re: TK)
Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 16:21:13 -0700
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From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
>
> Ofcourse, there's another strike against it; requiring IE. I
>wouldn't use IE if you covered my head with honey and planted me
upside
>down in an anthill.
>
> Okay, perhaps I would THEN, but I purposely do not use that
browser.
>There's a reason the web is rife with "IE sucks" graphics...
Actually, the latest version (IE 4.01) is pretty good. Most
comparisons by people who have used both actually rate it above
Netscape.
I should warn you, however. Installation of IE 4 can _really_ mess you
up if it goes wrong. Make certain that anti-virus, scheduling
utilities, and disk monitors are all completely disabled. Reboot at
least once after disabling them. If they come back, try again; that
isn't good enough.
The other thing I should warn you about is that the new Outlook 98
(not Outlook Express) _also_ requires IE 4.0, and will install it
automatically if you don't have it.
Now we return you to the proper use of this list.
Filksinger
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Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 21:13:04 -0400
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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> This is at least the third power framework to be described, and also
> exceeds -1 in total Limitations. Apparently, for many people, the answer
> to the challenge <snip> is "Well, first, I'd ignore those parameters."
> Oops! Sorry, Jeff, I replied to your Multipower choice before the above
> came in. I shouldn't have lumped you in with those people who didn't
want
> to play by the rules.
No problem. It's what happens when I don't pay close enough attention. I
stand by the value of the Limitations -- it comes to exactly -1.
Restrainable: -1/2
Concentrate: 1/2 DCV (only to start): -1/4
Extra Time: +1 Phase: -1/4 (1/2 value for a constant power)
Jeff Reid
Morfhis@compuserve.com
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm
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Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 21:13:11 -0400
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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> Actually, I have to re-do mine; the suggestion of noncombat multiples
> made me realize; "how the hell often would I need my full DCV when I'm
> flying, anyway?" So,
> 6" flight, X4 noncombat multiple, foulable wings (-1/2) for 22
> active, 15 real.
> That gives me a maximum of 48"/phase noncombat for 1 END!
Good point. I like your construction better than mine.
Jeff Reid
Morfhis@compuserve.com
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm
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From: "Robert" <baron@stlnet.com>
To: "Champs" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: A Matter of Law
Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 22:43:36 -0500
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I have a possibly sticky situation in my game.
The characters arrive on the scene of a campus which is being seiged by a
Mutant Militia for a secret research project which they wish to capture.
(They also wish to kidnap the two scientists who know how to make it work.)
Before they arrived, a building was toppled over inadvertantly by an
over-zealous Campus cop (secretly a well armed Genocide agent) who was
firing at another mutant who was just showing up on the scene. The mutant's
name is Blue Angel.
In the game world, it is a crime to be an unregistered mutant. Blue Angel is
seen on camera being hit by the Genocide gadget which casts her into the
tall building, bringing the building down on her AND the Genocide agents.
Angela Bartonelli is the only alive person they pull out of the wreckage of
the building in the relative position of where Blue Angel went down. Every
other body found in that area within 30 meters is dead except for Angela who
is at the center of this area. Blue Angel is the relative size and body type
of Angela but glows brilliantly blue. The camera and all spectators note
that all Blue Angel did was appear on the scene and was not seen committing
a crime or assisting with criminal efforts in any way.
When Angela Bartonelli is taken to the hospital, she walks out of the
unsupervised ward (it was not known at the time of her escape that she was a
possible mutant.)
With this information, could the FBI get a search warrant on her home and
car? Why and what could the probable cause be?
I reasoned the judge was anti-mutant and the circumstantial evidence of
Angela being Blue Angel was overwhelming, but it IS just circumstantial.
Could a judge support (or more importantly could the Law support) a warrant
for her apartment and home to search for records, statements, or data
(written or electronic) that would indicate a tie between her and the Mutant
Militia or could the warrant only support a search for evidence of Angela
being a mutant?
I know that if the evidence tying her to the militia is discovered that it
is inadmissable UNLESS it goes towards proving that she knew she was a
mutant and was willingly hiding that fact. I think.
Well, what do ya think? Am I making legal sense or is this just a layman
whose watched too many episodes of "Law & Order"?
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Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 20:46:24 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Copywrighting characters. (!)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Jason Sullivan wrote:
>
> Hi,
> Has anyone here very copywrighted a character? I'd like to do so,
At the risk of sounding hostile, why bother?
Copyright protection is intended to protect commercial rights, and to
protect the authors of significant works from having their labors
misattributed. I cannot, for the life of me, see why one would want
protection for a character, as opposed to a rules supplement, etc. Do
you intend to sue other players for creating similar characters?
For that matter, what one copyrights is not an idea (the character) but a
particular expression of that idea (the words, pictures, sounds, etc.).
If you copyrighted your character description, someone could change the
name and origin story slightly, and write it up in their own words and
almost certainly not be infringing.
Oh, and you seem to be confusing two words: copywrite (a journalistic
function) and copyright (the exclusive legal right to publish). I
suppose that someone who made copies for a living might be called a
copywright, just as someone who makes wagons is a wainwright, but I have
never seen this word in use.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
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Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 23:03:29 -0500
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net
Organization: GM's R US
To: Robert <baron@stlnet.com>
CC: Champs <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Robert wrote:
> I have a possibly sticky situation in my game.
>
> The characters arrive on the scene of a campus which is being seiged by a
> Mutant Militia for a secret research project which they wish to capture.
> (They also wish to kidnap the two scientists who know how to make it work.)
> Before they arrived, a building was toppled over inadvertantly by an
> over-zealous Campus cop (secretly a well armed Genocide agent) who was
> firing at another mutant who was just showing up on the scene. The mutant's
> name is Blue Angel.
<snip>
Here is my two cents.
First, if you are running a four color campaign like the comics, forget
it. I know it makes no sense at all, but it happens all the time in the comics.
A building collapses and only Clark Kent survives and yet no one figures that
Clark Kent is Superman. Happens all the time.
On the other hand, if you are into the more realistic supers then here
goes:
I am no law expert, but a judge can issue a warrent on ANYTHING they
want. So yes he "could" issue a warrent on the basis you listed. However, that
warrent would NEVER stand up to any scrutiny and any information gained from it
would be inadmissible in any court. Any thing discovered by a warrent that is
issued without probable cause is inadmissable in court.
I personally don't think the fact that she was at the location when a
crime was commited is enough probable cause.
Also, the judge issuing such an order would be placed under judicial
review and "could" loose his job (unless he is a lifetime appointee).
Of course, you PC still has to deal with the effects of the warrent
being carried out and her secret ID known.
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Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 21:18:43 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Donald Tsang wrote:
>
> I figure this is no dumber than arguing about how much STR should cost...
>
> You have 15 extra points, because you're an RPG player... now go spend it.
> Caveats: no more than -1 limitation total on powers, no frameworks, and
> you do have "Normal Charactersitics Maxima".
>
> Donald
How about:
5 20 COM [base 10]
7 Seduction 14- [COM is complementary]
3 LS: Disease
have that, and who cares about anything else?
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
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From: "David Graham" <dgraham882@hotmail.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Subject: Re: PBEM game
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 05:21:03 GMT
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
I've enclosed below a couple of links to web pages which carry PBEM
advertisements. The Phoenyx site also has a PBEM announcements mailing
list you can subscribe to. Good luck.
http://www.pbem.com
http://www.phoenyx.net/index.html
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 01:43:38 -0500
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: Re: Copywrighting characters. (!)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 07:32 PM 5/8/98 EDT, Hero Games wrote:
>You cannot copyright a character per se, but you can gain some protection
>overall for the character. For instance, Marvel protects its characters with
>copyright, which covers the assemblage of "name, distinctive likeness, and
>abilities" as well as the history and background. Key characters generally
>have their own book, and thus their name becomes a trademark as well (viz.,
>"The Incredible Hulk"). This sort of copyright, while not explicit in the
>statutes, has been developed through case law.
Um ... checking the legal notices on my comicbooks, it seems you've flubbed
this. The "name and distinctive likeness" business is claimed for
/trademarks/, not copyrights. Marvel's comicbooks do not claim a copyright
on its characters (though there may be some confusion created by the fact
that the name of the branch company which HOLDS the copyrights is "Marvel
Characters, Inc.").
--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 01:43:40 -0500
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: Copywrighting characters. (!)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 12:25 PM 5/8/98 -0500, Jason Sullivan wrote:
> Has anyone here very copywrighted a character? I'd like to do so,
>but I have alot of questions that need answering.
> If anyone could give a breif synopsis of what to do or where I
>could go, it would be most appreciated.
>From the top ...
First of all, the best place for ANY information on copyrights is the
horse's mouth: for Americans, the U.S. Copyright Office (under the Library
of Congress). They have a LOT of information available, at
http://lcweb.loc.gov/copyright/. Any other source (including me -- I highly
encourage anyone reading me to double-check my sources) is just hearsay.
This most definitely includes the variously located "10 Copyright Myths",
which seem to be somewhat slanted more towards scaring potential infringers
than imparting useful information.
In regards to "character copyright", strictly speaking this is not possible.
(Please, no anecdotal rebuttals from the peanut gallery that can't be backed
with documents ...). The following information is taken directly from
Copyright Information Circular 44, available on the Copyright Office page
indicated above; the "**...**" emphasis is mine, however, and not in the
original.
Circular 44
CARTOONS AND COMIC STRIPS
IN GENERAL
The copyright law of the United States (title 17 of the United
States Code) provides for copyright protection of literary and
artistic works. Copyright protection begins automatically when a
work is first created in a fixed form. Cartoons and comic strips
are among the types of works of authorship protected by copyright.
This protection extends to any copyrightable pictorial or written
expression contained in the work. This protection does not extend
to the title or general theme for a cartoon or comic strip **or to
the general idea or name for the characters depicted**.
Intangible attributes of characters are not copyrightable, but a
drawing, picture, or depiction or a written description of a
character may be registered for copyright. **However, copyright
does not extend to the character itself.** A character may be
protected under aspects of other state, common, or trademark
laws. Likewise, titles and names may sometimes be protected under
state law doctrines or trademark laws, but such protection is not
provided for in the copyright statute. Consult an attorney for
details.
Everybody got that? Characters, as such, can NOT be copyrighted. Their names
and distinctive images can, and almost always are in the case of comicbooks,
TRADEMARKED -- but trademarks are a whole other kettle of fish.
You can copyright a character /sheet/. You can copyright a drawing of a
character. You can copyright stories about a character. But in all these
cases, it is the fixed expression that is protected (the sheet, drawing, or
story text), NOT the nebulous idea we call a "character".
--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 20:59:06 +0800
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au>
Reply-To: gazza@wantree.com.au
Organization: Only One Inc.
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: What would you do with 15 pts?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> > The base form must be the larger (points-wise) of the forms, so your
> "other form" would
> > have to be build on (at most) the same number of points your are
> minus the cost of the
> > multiform power.
> >
> Ah, but who says the original me is the base form? After all, many
> superheroes gained multiforms where the more powerful form was "base",
> but not the original.
This seems immaterial. It's what is called a 'radiation accident' -
the'original' you becomes 'something that the powerful form paid for'.
Perhaps not exactly intuitive, but the mechanics are pretty sound.
--
GAZZA (gazza@wantree.com.au; http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza)
"To know others is wisdom. To know oneself is enlightment."
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 08:21:28 -0500
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: What would you do with 15 pts?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>When it comes to using time travel to it's fullest, you are way
>behind.
No, I simply realized that it would be a waste of everyone's time to give a
detailed analysis of every possible use to which I might put a power that I
could not possibly buy within the parameters of this little "what if...?"
game. Even if the XDM itself were affordable, the things you suggest would
require additional purchases such as KS: Stock Market, FAM: International
Banking, plus a Perk, Skill or KS that would enable me to get good fake
identification. On top of all that I have to know enough about the law to
be able to ensure an "ironclad" will, I have to be able to fake my own
death... and what's the end result of all this complicated manuevering? 15
points in Wealth, which I could have just taken to start with if I felt the
need for billions of bucks.
Yes, time travel would be a lot more versatile that that, but I gave more
uses for it it my offhand remarks than you did in your convoluted
construction.
Damon
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 08:45:14 -0500
To: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
From: Bryce Berggren <ghost@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: Copywrighting characters. (!)
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 08:15 PM 5/10/98 -0700, Robert A. West wrote:
>Bryant Berggren wrote:
>>
>> At 07:32 PM 5/8/98 EDT, Hero Games wrote:
>> >You cannot copyright a character per se, but you can gain some protection
>> >overall for the character. For instance, Marvel protects its characters with
>> >copyright, which covers the assemblage of "name, distinctive likeness, and
>> >abilities" as well as the history and background.
>>
>> Um ... checking the legal notices on my comicbooks, it seems you've flubbed
>
>
>Well, then a non-trivial number of copyright lawyers, as well as federal
>judges have flubbed on this as well: my money is on the professionals.
You ever notice that in any courtroom, you've got at least one of those
professionals on either side of any case, and they contradict each other
ALL the time?
Attorneys back whoever's paying them, and judges sometimes make mistakes
(which is why we have appellate and Supreme courts). But in the end, a rule
either gets followed or it gets declared unconstitutional. So far, I've
never heard the U.S. Copyright Office's rules declared unconstitutional,
so my money will stay there.
>As it was explained to me, the claims in question arise on the theory
>that any work that copies 'the assemblage of "name, distinctive likeness,
>and abilities" as well as the history and background.' is derivative of
>the works that established the assemblage, and the exclusive right to
>produce derivative works is protected under copyright law, and has been
>since long before the 1978 reforms.
And the same place that directly contradicts this idea (i.e., says flat
out you can't copyright a character) also explains why a "character"
(or for that matter, a plot or story idea), ISN'T a derivative work in
the legal sense. You're creating a legally derivative work when you
rewrite "Macbeth" into French from English. You're not creating a legally
derivative work when you rewrite "Macbeth" as a mafia story.
It's all in the official documents. No offense, but whoever explained the
above to you explained it wrong, and I hope you didn't pay them for it.
H. G.
He beats his fists against the posts
and still insists he sees the ghosts
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 08:52:04 -0500
To: hero-l@sysabend.org
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Alternative to END Reserve
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>I know you threw out limited LS but if you do not want it to cost more than
>normally persistant LS, I don't see how you have a choice:
>
>LS food, vacuum, breathing: (-1) only 10 days protection for one person
>(-1/2) only works in Life Pod.
You may be right, I may not have a choice in the end. I'm just starting to
explore the idea and it may well prove to be completely unworkable.
Workable, in this case, means it would have to be internally consistent,
not exactly duplicate END Reserve or any other Hero option, and be somewhat
consistent with how things work in the Real World.
>So, for 5 character points, I don't need to eat, sleep or excrete. But for
>4 character points, I can eat, and only eat, for 4 days. Needless to say,
>I think this idea is a bit buggy.
So, for "X" character points I can have a RKA energy weapon with unlimited
power (in terms of how many shots it can fire before recharging; it never
needs to be recharged) but a weapon I can only fire 20 times before
recharging costs me X * 1.25 points? Needless to say, I think Charges is a
little buggy.
>If you persist in this idea, I suggest you use the time chart. 1 CP = 1
>day of rations for one person, increase it up the time chart for each
>additional CP. So a month's rations for one person would be 3 CP and a
>year would be 5 CP. (Still sounds like a bad deal to me.) Increase the
>number of people by dividing, thus 4 people could survive for a week on a
>3CP Food Reserve, as could 30 people for a day. Even this is too
>expensive. Maybe make the base 1 CP = 1 year of food.
This is certainly worth considering. Very much in keeping with other
long-term Hero options.
>I don't think it has a lot of merit. Even a Transform would cost less and
>if I were creating a machine-which-makes-food-or-air, I would use
>Transform. But I cannot imagine that you would use a power to model such a
>machine which did not replenish itself. A device which holds food without
>making food is a closet or a refrigerator (change environment).
A closet or refrigerator is essentially what's being modeled here, not a
Star Trek replicator. However, since I would never require characters to
pay points for, or keep track of, food/water/air in a normal day-to-day
situation, it might be better to say that what's being tracked is the
closet or refrigerated locker of *emergency* supplies.
No need to track food/air/water/fuel unless you are in a situation where
you are cut off from any source of resupply, have a finite (and probably
small) supply with you, and may die or become incapacitated when that
supply runs out. Once the escape pod is launched, the clock starts
ticking. Think of this as large-cycle combat time. On board ship, assume
there's always plenty of food/water/air/heat, because you will have bought
persistent LS for the ship. In the escape pod, everyone should be
conscious of the fact that LS is now severly limited, so now we have to
start counting days and hours as the evacuees try to stretch their
resources while awaiting rescue.
>Also, I don't think that eating should be modelled by character points.
>("Good thing we saved the day, Captain Quad, otherwise we wouldn't have
>enough character points to buy food for today.")
See above; you never have to "buy food for today". You would purchase an
emergency supply of food (or whatever) when your ship (escape pod, base,
whatever) was built and define it as having a REC that only kicks in when
you can get a resupply from whatever source is appropriate. That way, no
matter how many times you have to dip into your emergency stores, you only
have to pay for them once.
Thanks for the feedback.
Damon
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 09:10:42 -0500
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Alternative to END Reserve
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>cinematic, really. Life Support is rarely ever described as something that
>needs recharging as often as (for example) weapons or shields. I'd almost say
>that you could use a limitation such as "does not work when END Reserve is at
>0" or "Requires recharging once per week" as a -0 limitation (MAYBE a -1/4 in
>the first case).
I'm not sure what's being suggested here, but this is what it sounds like
to me: Buy Life Support and apply the Costs END to Use Limitation (-1/2).
Set up an END Reserve to power the LS and (in the case of the first option
you listed) specify that the REC stops working once you've exhausted the
initial supply of END. Is that close?
>This is not to belittle the actual concept, though - I just thought I'd
mention
>that strict adherence to the 'Life Support shouldn't be an endless supply of
>food and air' idea is perhaps going a little too far in 'realism'. YMMV.
LS should be an endless supply as long as power and any needed raw
materials are on hand. In a space ship, I would not limit the LS; in an
escape pod, with no power generator, limited battery power, limited space
for air and water tanks, etc. I did want to limit supplies within the
framework of the game. No need to even consider this until and unless an
emergency situation arises.
>
>This is an interesting idea, but again I think I don't think I'd charge
points
>for this (certainly not in a 4-colour or even gritty superhero game; possibly
>if I were playing in some sort of post-holocaust/survival genre). This is
>(IMHO) like charging for an AM/FM radio in a Vehicle - it's a little too
far. A
>typical base might want food for 5 people. Even 1 day's worth of food now is
>going to cost 5 points (which you would probably prefer to spend somewhere
>else).
It would cost the *base* 5 points, and therefore cost the character 1
point, and you'd only have to pay for any energency rations the base kept
on hand. The cafeteria, snack and soda machines, and the birthday cake for
Ted from Accounting are all free or at worst paid for with money, not
character points. Even so, perhaps I should consider doubling the number
of persons covered for every +1 point?
>IMHO, this is the sort of thing Hero characters ought to be able to use money
>for, rather than character points.
>
>> Air Supply Reserve, 4 Units (one Unit/hour), REC 4 Units/hour
>> (Must refill at base -2) Real Cost: 5
In retrospect I see the examples I gave were very bad. Gas (for a car,
anyway) and scuba tanks should both be paid for with money, never with
points. Gas for the generator that powers your only remaining source of
heat as the sun goes down in the winter cold north woods...maybe.
Damon
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 11:28:50 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Point Balancing (was Re: Desolidification)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Wed, 6 May 1998, Dataweaver wrote:
> Actually, I feel a need for a power that represents a character who simply
> _cannot_ be hurt by a certain kind of attack; under the current setup,
> such an ability isn't prohibitively expensive - it's impossible.
It's possible, given the rule that abilities can have minor advantages
based on SFX for no cost. Find out how rare an attack has to be before
your GM will consider ignoring it to be a "minor" advantage, buy enough
defense to handle any attack up to that level, and call the SFX "total
invulnerability". (Eg: if the GM is willing to let you ignore a 1-in-a-
million attack based on SFX, buy enough defense to stop 99.999% of the
attacks you're going to encounter.)
Note that this approach has the advantage that its cost scales automatically
with the power level of the campaign, which a fixed-cost 100% Reduction
wouldn't. 120 pts for 100% DR is reasonable in a standard 250-pt campaign,
but if you're playing cosmic level characters with 500D6 attacks, it's way
too cheap.
(Of course, Damage Reduction as it is has this problem as well.)
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 11:29:22 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Wed, 6 May 1998, Donald Tsang wrote:
> I figure this is no dumber than arguing about how much STR should cost...
>
> You have 15 extra points, because you're an RPG player... now go spend it.
I'd buy 7.5 points of STR.
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 11:30:02 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: TK
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Wed, 6 May 1998, Goode, Jason wrote:
> > Realistically, Strength is underpriced. Increase the cost of Strength to
> > ~x2 and a lot of things stop being broken.
> Elaborate.
No... fairly simple, actually.:)
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 09:30:46 -0500
To: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com&> champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: Copywrighting characters. (!)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 08:15 PM 5/10/98 -0700, Robert A. West wrote:
>Bryant Berggren wrote:
>> At 07:32 PM 5/8/98 EDT, Hero Games wrote:
>>> You cannot copyright a character per se, but you can gain some
>>> protection overall for the character. For instance, Marvel protects its
>>> characters with copyright, which covers the assemblage of "name,
>>> distinctive likeness, and abilities" as well as the history and
>>> background.
>>
>> Um ... checking the legal notices on my comicbooks, it seems you've
>> flubbed
>
>Well, then a non-trivial number of copyright lawyers, as well as federal
>judges have flubbed on this as well: my money is on the professionals.
This wouldn't surprise me. Federal judges, especially, 'flub' all the time
(such as the existence of various decisions limiting First Amendment
protections). It's a fact of life that we live in a country where nothing
but their own intellect and/or sense of honor obligates a judge or jury to
actually pay any attention at all to the law as written.
And lawyers are a pretty lousy source of information -- after all, logic
dictates that roughly 50% of the attorneys litigating cases at this time
will be proven wrong. :] :] :]
>As it was explained to me, the claims in question arise on the theory
>that any work that copies 'the assemblage of "name, distinctive likeness,
>and abilities" as well as the history and background.' is derivative of
>the works that established the assemblage, and the exclusive right to
>produce derivative works is protected under copyright law, and has been
>since long before the 1978 reforms.
Yes, I've heard the "derivative work" theory before, always (like here) as a
Friend-of-a-Friend anecdote or explanation. Since it doesn't jibe with the
current "official word", I put little stock in the theory until such time as
I get my hands on a court decision using it. I've gone to the trouble of
providing the source materials for my claims, and I think the Library of
Congress's Copyright Office bears just a little more weight than presently
anonymous "professionals".
As for "derivative works", here's what the LOC has to say:
U.S. Copyright Office, Library of Congress
Circular 14
Derivative Works
Derivative works, also known as "new versions," include such works
as translations, musical arrangements, dramatizations,
fictionalizations, art reproductions, and condensations. Any work
in which the editorial revisions, annotations, elaborations, or
other modifications represent, as a whole, an original work of
authorship is a "derivative work" or "new version."
A typical example of a derivative work received for registration
in the Copyright Office is one that is primarily a new work but
incorporates some previously published material. This previously
published material makes the work a derivative work under the
copyright law.
Notice: "derivative work" is used synonymously with "new version", and all
the examples given of "derivative works" amount to either (1) editing jobs
or (2) medium alterations (such as from print to film). As described above,
it would not apply to sequels or other works that utilize /non-tangible/
elements of a work -- which only makes sense, because non-tangible elements
of a work are EXPLICITLY unprotected by Title 17 (the Copyright Act). You're
protecting the text, not the plot.
And just to make the point MORE clear, let me requote a passage from
Circular 44, "Cartoons and Comic Strips":
This protection does not extend to the title or general theme for
a cartoon or comic strip or to the general idea or name for the
characters depicted. Intangible attributes of characters are not
copyrightable, but a drawing, picture, or depiction or a written
description of a character may be registered for copyright.
However, copyright does not extend to the character itself.
I'm going to repeat that last line because it sounded vaguely important:
"HOWEVER, COPYRIGHT DOES NOT EXTEND TO THE CHARACTER ITSELF". Y'all remember
MIRACLE ON 34TH STREET, right, when that guy brought in all the letters? I'm
using the same argument: this is a branch of the /federal government/
speaking, more to the point the very branch that the government has placed
in charge of issuing and arbitrating the topic. It's hard to GET more
"professional" than that.
--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 11:39:07 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: CHAR: WC: Nur al-Allah
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
This is old, but...
On Fri, 1 May 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> NUR AL-ALLAH
> "Light of Allah"
> (Najib)
[...]
> Wildcard (Ace) Powers:
> 25 Compelling Voice: Oratory 25-
Not enough... the Nur needs Mind Control. The only way Oratory skill alone
could enable him to do what he did is if you use the -10 modifier for
"impossible" feats, and that rule is intended for farce campaigns as far
as I can tell.
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 22:59:53 +0800
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au>
Reply-To: gazza@wantree.com.au
Organization: Only One Inc.
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Alternative to END Reserve
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> >cinematic, really. Life Support is rarely ever described as something that
> >needs recharging as often as (for example) weapons or shields. I'd almost say
> >that you could use a limitation such as "does not work when END Reserve is at
> >0" or "Requires recharging once per week" as a -0 limitation (MAYBE a -1/4 in
> >the first case).
>
> I'm not sure what's being suggested here, but this is what it sounds like
> to me: Buy Life Support and apply the Costs END to Use Limitation (-1/2).
> Set up an END Reserve to power the LS and (in the case of the first option
> you listed) specify that the REC stops working once you've exhausted the
> initial supply of END. Is that close?
Not precisely. I realise I phrased that poorly; let me attempt to givean example:
Let us suppose we're buying a Base or Vehicle of some sort. It
has (among other things) some weapons, some force fields, sensors,
and so forth, all of which cost END and are powered by an END
Reserve. What I was suggesting is that you buy your Life Support for
the base with the -0 (or -1/4) limitation "Does not work if END Reserve
is exhausted). Note that it doesn't actually _cost_ END to use, but
that if ALL of your power is gone, then so is Life Support. This seems
to be a more appropriate way to simulate this sort of thing - it's not
much of a limitation, granted, but that's why I suggest it to be -1/4 at
the very most.
> LS should be an endless supply as long as power and any needed raw
> materials are on hand. In a space ship, I would not limit the LS; in an
> escape pod, with no power generator, limited battery power, limited space
> for air and water tanks, etc. I did want to limit supplies within the
> framework of the game. No need to even consider this until and unless an
> emergency situation arises.
An escape pod would work with my above suggestion if the propulsionrequired END to
use (note that NO vehicle movement costs END 'by default',
but I see no reason you couldn't buy vehicle movement with -1/2 Costs END).
It does, of course, make Life Support 'all or nothing' and technically prevent
'gradual loss of Life Support', but this seems pretty consistent with the way
this sort of thing is normally portrayed.
<Snipped my point about Base food costing 5 points for 5 person-days>
> It would cost the *base* 5 points, and therefore cost the character 1
> point, and you'd only have to pay for any energency rations the base kept
> on hand. The cafeteria, snack and soda machines, and the birthday cake for
> Ted from Accounting are all free or at worst paid for with money, not
> character points. Even so, perhaps I should consider doubling the number
> of persons covered for every +1 point?
You could try 'manipulating' the Charges limitation. Just call 'one use'of Life
Support: Does not need to eat (effectively 'emergency rations')
'enough food for 1 person for 1 week' (tailor to taste). This is
admittedly stretching things slightly, but it really doesn't seem that
abusive. Under this arrangement, you'd get a -2 limitation for
1 person-week of food, so that would cost you only 2 points.
However, I'd restrict this sort of thing to Vehicles and Bases, if
you have min-maxing players.
--
GAZZA (gazza@wantree.com.au; http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza)
"To know others is wisdom. To know oneself is enlightment."
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 11:17:37 -0400
To: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net&>
hero-l@sysabend.org
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Alternative to END Reserve
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 08:52 AM 5/10/98 -0500, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
> Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>>So, for 5 character points, I don't need to eat, sleep or excrete. But for
>>4 character points, I can eat, and only eat, for 4 days. Needless to say,
>>I think this idea is a bit buggy.
>
>So, for "X" character points I can have a RKA energy weapon with unlimited
>power (in terms of how many shots it can fire before recharging; it never
>needs to be recharged) but a weapon I can only fire 20 times before
>recharging costs me X * 1.25 points? Needless to say, I think Charges is a
>little buggy.
So, since the game already contains buggy elements, you think that adding a
new one is keeping with that style?
>>I don't think it has a lot of merit. Even a Transform would cost less and
>>if I were creating a machine-which-makes-food-or-air, I would use
>>Transform. But I cannot imagine that you would use a power to model such a
>>machine which did not replenish itself. A device which holds food without
>>making food is a closet or a refrigerator (change environment).
>
>A closet or refrigerator is essentially what's being modeled here, not a
>Star Trek replicator. However, since I would never require characters to
>pay points for, or keep track of, food/water/air in a normal day-to-day
>situation, it might be better to say that what's being tracked is the
>closet or refrigerated locker of *emergency* supplies.
You want a refridgerator to cost points. More points than the half hex
Change Environment that a fridge is? More points than the Life Support you
are simulating? That makes no sense. Character points are more valuable
than your material reserve costs.
>In the escape pod, everyone should be
>conscious of the fact that LS is now severly limited, so now we have to
>start counting days and hours as the evacuees try to stretch their
>resources while awaiting rescue.
"Severely limited" usually means costs less. So "does not need to eat,
self contained breathing, safe in vacuum, heat and cold, only lasts one
day" should cost less than the ~22 points it should cost.
>>Also, I don't think that eating should be modelled by character points.
>>("Good thing we saved the day, Captain Quad, otherwise we wouldn't have
>>enough character points to buy food for today.")
>
>See above; you never have to "buy food for today". You would purchase an
>emergency supply of food (or whatever) when your ship (escape pod, base,
>whatever) was built and define it as having a REC that only kicks in when
>you can get a resupply from whatever source is appropriate. That way, no
>matter how many times you have to dip into your emergency stores, you only
>have to pay for them once.
The key word above is PURCHASE. A locker full of food costs MONEY, not
character points. A tank of oxygen costs money. The life pod costs money.
If you are playing in a game where guns cost money then emergency food
costs money. If you have to pay points for normal equipment, then use the
power listed: LS: does not eat with appropriate limitations. "Emergency
food/air supply" is a SPECIAL EFFECT. Just because the food is used in an
emergency does not make that food different than any other kind of food.
There is no reason to make food cost more than the aforementioned gun.
Joe
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 11:35:03 -0500
To: hero-l@sysabend.org
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Alternative to END Reserve
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>So, since the game already contains buggy elements, you think that adding a
>new one is keeping with that style?
I merely point out a similarity to an existing option, indicating that the
problem you mentioned is nothing new, and hardly unique to the Material
Reserve. At worst I am perpetuating an existing buggy element -- the fact
that it is possible for a Limited Power to cost more than the same Power
with no Limitations -- not adding a new one.
>You want a refridgerator to cost points. More points than the half hex
>Change Environment that a fridge is? More points than the Life Support you
>are simulating? That makes no sense. Character points are more valuable
>than your material reserve costs.
No. Please try to pay attention. I want a character to pay points for any
food, water, air, etc. that he'd have to use in a life-threatening
emergency where there was a significant chance that his situation would
kill or incapacitate him as a result of running out of that food/water/air
within some brief period of time. If the food in question requires
refrigeration, said appliance would be assumed as a special effect of the
Materiel Reserve, not paid for separately, and under no circumstances will
any character have to pay points for his home fridge, where the pizza and
beer are kept.
>"Severely limited" usually means costs less. So "does not need to eat,
>self contained breathing, safe in vacuum, heat and cold, only lasts one
>day" should cost less than the ~22 points it should cost.
Fine, then replace "severely limited" with "in short supply". I think you
are being purposely argumentative here.
>The key word above is PURCHASE. A locker full of food costs MONEY, not
>character points. A tank of oxygen costs money. The life pod costs money.
The life pod costs points; it is a secondary vehicle. I admit the SCUBA
tank was not a good example. If the locker full of food is a special
effect of Life Support, Materiel Reserve or anything else, it costs points
-- the points paid for the LS, Mat Reserve or whatever.
> If you are playing in a game where guns cost money then emergency food
>costs money. If you have to pay points for normal equipment, then use the
>power listed: LS: does not eat with appropriate limitations. "Emergency
>food/air supply" is a SPECIAL EFFECT. Just because the food is used in an
>emergency does not make that food different than any other kind of food.
>There is no reason to make food cost more than the aforementioned gun.
If you invalidate the concept on this basis, you make the assumption that
everyone plays a game where guns cost money. That is an *option*, and even
if it is very common not everyone is going to use it. I typically use it
in Heroic games, but not always Superheroic. If a common handgun is built
with points, it will have Charges, as far as I know never more than 14.
Charges will not work for any reasonable amount of LS, for the cost-related
reasons already stated.
Emergency food/air/whatever supply certainly can be a special effect of LS.
All I'm doing here is making it a special effect of a Material Reserve
instead, for those situations where a consumable resource is not
energy-based, and therefore END Reserve might seem a bit counterintuitve.
Hero is full of stuff like this, like the fact that high speed running is
usually bought as Flight with Limitations, because Running doesn't work
well for those speeds. Sometimes the most obvious thing to use doesn't
work well becuase of some minor flaw that interferes with the character (or
gadget) concept.
I was recently accused of being overly resistant to the prospect of adding
new options to the game, and was told that new options get added with every
edition and many of the sourcebooks. In fact I am very much in favor of
adding new options IF they actually represent something new, or a simpler
way of doing something that previously required hacking one Power into
another. I am not yet convinced that Materiel Reserve fits this bill, and
did not present it here as something that I thought was ready for use. I
asked for feedback to help me make that decision, and to make changes to
the concept where needed to make it work better it I decided to go ahead
with it; thank you for your opinion.
Damon
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 12:08:39 -0500
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Alternative to END Reserve
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>Let us suppose we're buying a Base or Vehicle of some sort. It
>has (among other things) some weapons, some force fields, sensors,
>and so forth, all of which cost END and are powered by an END
>Reserve. What I was suggesting is that you buy your Life Support for
>the base with the -0 (or -1/4) limitation "Does not work if END Reserve
>is exhausted). Note that it doesn't actually _cost_ END to use, but
>that if ALL of your power is gone, then so is Life Support. This seems
>to be a more appropriate way to simulate this sort of thing - it's not
>much of a limitation, granted, but that's why I suggest it to be -1/4 at
>the very most.
This does seem an elegant way of handling any single type of LS which might
be even indirectly dependent on any powered ship's system. I had said
originally that you could mix very similar things (food and water) within a
single Materiel Reserve, but not dissimilar things. Thus, if the air
pump/filters in the life pod were computer controlled and the air tanks
were concealed with the walls of the pod, you could lose your LS vs.
Breathing even with air remaining in the tanks, though while the system was
up and running it would provide no measurable drain on the END Reserve that
powers the life pod's electrical systems. What you described above seems
ideal for this.
Food and water would just be in foil packets or some similar container,
independent of any ship's system. Even if the pod loses all power, you can
still eat, and (as long as the interior temperature stays above freezing)
drink. The food and water supply is finite, and [I think] should be
measured, but it wouldn't be affected one way or the other by the END
Reserve batteries; you could starve in a warm, well-lit pod, or suffocate
with plenty of food.
>It does, of course, make Life Support 'all or nothing' and technically
prevent
>'gradual loss of Life Support', but this seems pretty consistent with the way
>this sort of thing is normally portrayed.
It's consistent with shipboard storytelling where the immediate situation
is usually a space battle or other ongoing problem; life support is usually
lost "off camera" and we don't see the results. If the action shifts to
the escape pod, such as with the classic movie "Lifeboat" or any similar
survival-suspense situation, gradual loss of LS, and how the characters
deal with it, becomes critical.
>You could try 'manipulating' the Charges limitation. Just call 'one use'of
Life
>Support: Does not need to eat (effectively 'emergency rations')
>'enough food for 1 person for 1 week' (tailor to taste). This is
>admittedly stretching things slightly, but it really doesn't seem that
>abusive. Under this arrangement, you'd get a -2 limitation for
>1 person-week of food, so that would cost you only 2 points.
Hmmm...yes, offhand I don't see why that wouldn't work. Okay, I won't
abandon the idea just yet, but it is beginning rtoto sound more and more
like there's no need to fool with a Materiel Reserve option at all, I just
have to model what I want using more than one existing option: Charges, as
you describe, for the food and water, and that semi-link to an END Reserve
for air, heat or anything that might be affected my a loss of power. Cool.
Damon
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 12:38:16 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
cc: hero-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Alternative to END Reserve
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Sun, 10 May 1998, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
> At worst I am perpetuating an existing buggy element -- the fact
> that it is possible for a Limited Power to cost more than the same Power
> with no Limitations -- not adding a new one.
If I remember your example correctly - Charges - you failed to take into
account the fact that a power that uses charges costs no END, which is why
having 20 Charges costs more than the base power itself.
At some point, of course, it becomes more economical to buy '0 END' rather
than charges, but by that time you're talking about more charges than the
average person is going to use in a session anyway, so it's more a matter
of making it fit the SFX.
<snip>
> Emergency food/air/whatever supply certainly can be a special effect of LS.
> All I'm doing here is making it a special effect of a Material Reserve
> instead, for those situations where a consumable resource is not
> energy-based, and therefore END Reserve might seem a bit counterintuitve.
Honestly, I would do this as LS, usable by others (the capacity of the
life pod), costs END, have enough END there to run it for as long as I
want, and buy any REC with the limitation 'Only at Base, -2' -
representing the refueling/re-oxygenating/re-stocking of the LS unit.
Alternately, if the lifesystem is a 'recycling' one, you might have some
REC included that works all the time, to represent it scrubbing the air,
turning waste material back into food, or whatever.
If yo want to, you could call eithe rof these a 'material reserve', but I
would use exactly the same cost, because it does the same thing. It being
'materials' is basically SFX.
Option 3: Continuing Charges. Buy LS, usable by 1 other. I would apply a
-1/2 limitation to it, 'requires charges', because LS already has the big
benefit of using charges (a 0 END cost). Then, buy 1 1-day continuing
charge per man-day of life support. Unfortunately, HERO's continuing
charge system makes this kind of expensive - LS with 1 man-day of support
would cost roughly as much as the original power.
J
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 14:37:01 -0400
To: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net&>
hero-l@sysabend.org
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Alternative to END Reserve
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 11:35 AM 5/10/98 -0500, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
>>You want a refridgerator to cost points. More points than the half hex
>>Change Environment that a fridge is? More points than the Life Support you
>>are simulating? That makes no sense. Character points are more valuable
>>than your material reserve costs.
>
>No. Please try to pay attention. I want a character to pay points for any
>food, water, air, etc. that he'd have to use in a life-threatening
>emergency where there was a significant chance that his situation would
>kill or incapacitate him as a result of running out of that food/water/air
>within some brief period of time. If the food in question requires
>refrigeration, said appliance would be assumed as a special effect of the
>Materiel Reserve, not paid for separately, and under no circumstances will
>any character have to pay points for his home fridge, where the pizza and
>beer are kept.
No, you pay attention. You are trying to model what amounts to a
refridgerator and an air tank. These are Change Environment or Life
Support. The fact that they are used in an emergency situation is just
plot. By your logic, a ship without a material reserve of food in a life
pod cannot have food in its life pod, even if the characters buy the food
and leave it there.
Most people who create spaceships do not model the galley as part of the
ship. They buy food and have the cook, cook it. The kitchen stove is not
normally a checklist item when figuring the character point cost of any
ship or base. Why should a refridgerator? (I am now imagining that
someone is going to tell us about a base where some player wanted a 14-
cooking laboratory to represent the kitchen.)
>>The key word above is PURCHASE. A locker full of food costs MONEY, not
>>character points. A tank of oxygen costs money. The life pod costs money.
>
>The life pod costs points; it is a secondary vehicle. I admit the SCUBA
>tank was not a good example. If the locker full of food is a special
>effect of Life Support, Materiel Reserve or anything else, it costs points
>-- the points paid for the LS, Mat Reserve or whatever.
No, food does not cost points. The characters either have food, or they do
not. There should not be a character point cost for remembering to pack
emergency rations. At first, I thought you were modelling a replicator,
but you said you aren't. A replicator would be a power to create food. A
refridgerator is just an appliance, commonly available in any game where
one finds life pods.
>> If you are playing in a game where guns cost money then emergency food
>>costs money. *****If you have to pay points for normal equipment, then
use the
>>power listed: LS: does not eat with appropriate limitations.*****
"Emergency
>>food/air supply" is a SPECIAL EFFECT. Just because the food is used in an
>>emergency does not make that food different than any other kind of food.
>>There is no reason to make food cost more than the aforementioned gun.
>
>If you invalidate the concept on this basis, you make the assumption that
>everyone plays a game where guns cost money. That is an *option*, and even
>if it is very common not everyone is going to use it. I typically use it
>in Heroic games, but not always Superheroic. If a common handgun is built
>with points, it will have Charges, as far as I know never more than 14.
>Charges will not work for any reasonable amount of LS, for the cost-related
>reasons already stated.
No, I didn't. Read it again (note the five astericks). You don't need
charges for LS, it's already persistent. Just a limitation is needed, "-1
only feeds one people for one week or any combination thereof." If you
don't like -1, use -1/2 or -2, it doesn't really matter because it only
changes the real cost by one or two points.
>Emergency food/air/whatever supply certainly can be a special effect of LS.
> All I'm doing here is making it a special effect of a Material Reserve
>instead, for those situations where a consumable resource is not
>energy-based, and therefore END Reserve might seem a bit counterintuitve.
>Hero is full of stuff like this, like the fact that high speed running is
>usually bought as Flight with Limitations, because Running doesn't work
>well for those speeds. Sometimes the most obvious thing to use doesn't
>work well becuase of some minor flaw that interferes with the character (or
>gadget) concept.
The reason I am being so argumentative is that I do not understand why you
first thought to use END Reserve as the basis for a power involving Life
Support. Even gasoline for a car models just fine as an END Reserve.
>I am not yet convinced that Materiel Reserve fits this bill, and
>did not present it here as something that I thought was ready for use. I
>asked for feedback to help me make that decision, and to make changes to
>the concept where needed to make it work better it I decided to go ahead
>with it; thank you for your opinion.
You are welcome. I know you didn't think it was ready for use. No offense
intended. I just don't think Hero needs a Material Reserve.
Joe
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: "Champs" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> "Robert" <baron@stlnet.com>
Date: Sun, 10 May 98 19:00:26
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Sat, 9 May 1998 22:43:36 -0500, Robert wrote:
>I have a possibly sticky situation in my game.
<snip>
What advances the plot best?
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 17:37:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: CHAR: WC: Nur al-Allah
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Sun, 10 May 1998, Trevor Barrie wrote:
> This is old, but...
> > Wildcard (Ace) Powers:
> > 25 Compelling Voice: Oratory 25-
>
> Not enough... the Nur needs Mind Control. The only way Oratory skill alone
> could enable him to do what he did is if you use the -10 modifier for
> "impossible" feats, and that rule is intended for farce campaigns as far
> as I can tell.
The pook stats taht Nur has no t mental powers and cannot coerce someone
by mental force. His voice is compelling and tends to sway the masses.
He has no mental powers in GURPS, just an obscene Oratory roll.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 15:31:21 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: Champs <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Robert wrote:
>
> I have a possibly sticky situation in my game.
The best kind. Exploring the societal and legal implications of supers
is why I chose to run an Emerging Powers campaign. While I am not a
real-world legal expert, I have spent the time to consult real-world
attorneys on this subject and have asked them to speculate, and I have
researched Supreme Court rulings that might have precidental value if the
issue came up.
BTW, I assume that you are running a U.S. based campaign, YMMV otherwise.
>
> In the game world, it is a crime to be an unregistered mutant. Blue Angel is
What is the penalty? Are unregistered mutants outside the protection of
the law, to be hunted down and killed? I assume that it is a felony,
which means a crime that is punishable by more than a year in prison.
Moreover, felons are denied certain rights, including, in many states,
the right to vote, the right to bear arms, etc. They may also lawfully
be required to inform employers of their status, and the community may
lawfully be notified of their presence pursuant to law.
Note that a law requiring certain citizens to register is prima facie a
violation of the 5th and 14th Amendments: specifically the equal
protection and due process clauses, unless it serves an urgent and
vital public purpose (such as conscription) that cannot be served any
other way. Assuming that the law has been in force for some time and is
constitutional, then one of three things must be true:
1) The law in question is actually a constitutional amendment, in which
case an entire set of case law would have grown up concerning who is a
mutant and how to apply Due Process of Law to cases where someone is
accused of being a mutant.
In this case, Mutants rights have been specifically, and
we may hope carefully, circumscribed. If mass screenings
are not common, then probable cause would apply.
2) The courts have ruled that mutants are not persons, and therefore not
entitled to constitutional protections, unless "naturalized" by
registration.
In this case, violating someone's rights to prove them a
mutant is dangerous only if you are wrong, in which case
the person sues. If the "person" turns out to be a mutant,
their status is no different from a chattel slave's before
the law -- limited access for the sole purpose of proving
status as a free person. There is no standing before the
courts to sue for breach of rights and the fact of non-
personhood annihilates any actions to suppress evidence.
3) The courts have ruled that mutants are a Clear and Present Danger that
government cannot be expected to protect against unless some liberties
are suspended.
This case would involve the most case law, since a mutant's
right to free speech is dangerous only if the mutant has
Mind Control, but the right against searches might not
apply even to registered mutants.
> Angela Bartonelli is the only alive person they pull out of the wreckage of
> the building in the relative position of where Blue Angel went down. Every
> other body found in that area within 30 meters is dead except for Angela who
> is at the center of this area.
Presence at the scene of a violent crime creates reasonable suspicion
that the person is somehow involved. Being the only survivor of a
disaster creates reasonable suspicion that there is some reason for this.
If there is also a reasonable suspicion that the reason may involve a
criminal act, some, perhaps most courts would find probable cause.
If a person may represent a grave public danger, then there is a public
reason to act with less evidence than otherwise, and even a warrantless
search may be reasonable. For example, police are allowed to break down
a door if they hear a scream inside, or to follow a violent suspect into
his house without a warrant. In this situation, there is no such
urgency, but the vital importance of enforcing the Mutant Registration
Law could be a determining factor in granting and sustaining the warrant.
> Blue Angel is the relative size and body type
> of Angela but glows brilliantly blue. The camera and all spectators note
> that all Blue Angel did was appear on the scene and was not seen committing
> a crime or assisting with criminal efforts in any way.
The last point is absolutely false. If being an unregistered mutant is a
serious crime, then Blue Angel is continually committing a crime by
existing. Analogy: it is a crime in the U.S. to own a machine gun
without a Federal Firearms License. The courts have ruled that this
means that the owner is continually committing a crime, without being
involved in any other criminal activity. BTW, it is not necessary to
prove that the person knew it was a machine gun to get a conviction, and
proving that one did not know is not a defence unless one also proves due
diligence. A reasonable gun owner uses his guns often enough to know
their capabilities.
In fact, Blue Angel is guilty of murder. Under the felony murder rule,
any person who commits a felony is criminally responsible for any deaths
that occur in forseeable consequence of that felony as if those deaths
were intentional and malicious. Angela is an unregistered mutant, and
being an unregistered mutant is a felony. Moreover, it is common
knowledge that Genocide hunts down unregistered mutants, thereby creating
a public danger. Accordingly, failing to register evidences a reckless
disregard for the public safety and a willingness to risk a catastrophe.
In this case, the catastrophe came and numerous people died, which would
probably not have happened had she been registered. In fact, this is the
purpose of the registration law in the first place: to prevent
catastrophes.
The similarity of Angela and Blue Angel, the known ability of mutants to
change form, and the absence of glowing blue bodies comes close to
probable cause in and of itself. If the bodies can be tested to see if
any were mutants, then the absence of any unregistered mutants among them
would certainly raise level to probable cause. Courts have the right to
look at a mass of evidence, none sufficient in itself, and conclude that
the totality consitutes probable cause.
Moreover, the probability that Genocide will continue to hunt down Blue
Angel and cause more fatalities militates for the public safety and
against Angela's rights.
>
> When Angela Bartonelli is taken to the hospital, she walks out of the
> unsupervised ward (it was not known at the time of her escape that she was a
> possible mutant.)
This level of carelessness is well documented in the real world, and is
dramatically appropriate.
>
> With this information, could the FBI get a search warrant on her home and
> car? Why and what could the probable cause be?
Reasons:
On or about <time,date,location> John Doe, deceased, used
weapons and tactics appropriate to a Genocide Agent to attack
Blue Angel, a paranormal and suspected mutant.
We ask the court to take Judicial Notice that Genocide attacks
mutants, especially unregistered mutants, and that the purpose
of the Mutant Registration Act is to reduce the number of
calamities resulting from this conflict. We also ask Judicial
Notice of the known range of mutant powers and abilities.
In the course of aforementioned attack, a building was destroyed,
killing John Doe and numerous bystanders. The only survivor was
Angela Bartonelli. The engineering report hereto attached shows
that Angela was as the very center of the explosion, in a place
where survival is vanishingly improbable.
A thorough check of bodies shows none with mutations strong
enough to be Blue Angel, and no witness saw Blue Angel leave
the scene. Moreover, Angela is similar in appearance to
Blue Angel, except for the blue glow, which is well within
the known powers of mutants.
There would probably also be a backup request for a warrant citing the
clear and present public danger as a compelling cause to accept a lower
standard of proof.
They would probably request a search of Angela's apartment, and to seize
anything remotely resembling evidence of being a mutant. Also they would
request an arrest warrant for the purpose of compelling DNA evidence.
>
> I reasoned the judge was anti-mutant and the circumstantial evidence of
> Angela being Blue Angel was overwhelming, but it IS just circumstantial.
Circumstantial evidence is all that one has for most warrants.
> Could a judge support (or more importantly could the Law support) a warrant
> for her apartment and home to search for records, statements, or data
> (written or electronic) that would indicate a tie between her and the Mutant
> Militia or could the warrant only support a search for evidence of Angela
> being a mutant?
The warrant would probably only support looking for evidence that she is
a mutant; however, investigators are allowed to consider evidence of any
crime that they find in the course of a proper search. For example, if
they are authorized to look at computer files looking for evidence that
she has attempted to evade detection and they find the Mutant Militia's
plans for robbing the First National Bank, they can properly use that.
If, on the other hand, they are only authorized to seize Angela for a DNA
test, then they cannot look at her computer for any purpose.
Basically, if evidence of Militia activity is in a place where one might
reasonably look for evidence of being a mutant, and the investigators are
competent, the evidence will be found and introduced. Of course, there
will be a motion to suppress, and many judges suppress evidence for no
discernable reason, while others wouldn't suppress the most eggregious
evidence.
>
> I know that if the evidence tying her to the militia is discovered that it
> is inadmissable UNLESS it goes towards proving that she knew she was a
> mutant and was willingly hiding that fact. I think.
What you think you know is false. If the evidence was found pursuant to
a proper search, it can be introduced for any purpose. The cases that
you are thinking of generally result from narrowly constructed warrants
that the police try to stretch.
The following examples involve a warrant to search Angela's apartment ofr
evidence of being a mutant. There is a door communicating with the next
apartment, which is not Angela's.
1) The door is closed. The police open it and search.
Result: any evidence found in the next apartment is
inadmissable, since the premises were not covered and there
was no compelling reason to enter.
2) The door between the two is open, and a machine gun is
visible through the open doorway, so the police seize it. In
the process they see other evidence now in plain sight.
Result: all evidence is admissable: police are not required to
ignore evidence of a dangerous weapon in plain sight.
3) The door between the two is open, and a plant is visible
that may (or may not) be marijuana. The police go in and find
that it is marijuana, and find other evidence in plain sight.
Result: all evidence, including the marijuana, found in the
next apartment is inadmissible, since the police were not
searching for marijuana, and there was no urgent need to enter.
Of course, with a judge, your mileage will vary. You can justify any
decision you want, but if the government is serious about getting
mutants, and the players don't have script immunity, then she has just
acquired a Hunted by FBI: wanted for murder.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 15:33:23 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
CC: Hero List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: What would you do with 15 pts?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
>
> >When it comes to using time travel to it's fullest, you are way
> >behind.
>
> death... and what's the end result of all this complicated manuevering? 15
> points in Wealth, which I could have just taken to start with if I felt the
> need for billions of bucks.
Hmmm...Time Travel as an SFX for Wealth.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 15:41:51 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: Champs <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
qts wrote:
>
> On Sat, 9 May 1998 22:43:36 -0500, Robert wrote:
>
> >I have a possibly sticky situation in my game.
>
> <snip>
>
> What advances the plot best?
Frankly, I think this a pointless answer. If the GM in question were
running a plot-on-rails campaign, then he would have already done exactly
what you suggest. If, on the other hand, the GM likes a verisimilar
campaign style, where NPCs act reasonably according to their character
conceptions, then the question arises as asked.
If the GM lets the PCs act, and suffer/benefit from the consequences of
their actions, then the plot will be advanced, no matter what decision is
made, and the GM should be encouraged to consider the options carefully.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 17:56:13 -0500
To: hero-l@sysabend.org
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Alternative to END Reserve
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>No, you pay attention. You are trying to model what amounts to a
>refridgerator and an air tank. These are Change Environment or Life
>Support. The fact that they are used in an emergency situation is just
>plot. By your logic, a ship without a material reserve of food in a life
>pod cannot have food in its life pod, even if the characters buy the food
>and leave it there.
I'm not trying to change the environment, but stabilize in in order to keep
people alive for a while. It is, as you say, Life Support; a fridge or an
air tank are merely containers for the SFX of that Life Support. No one is
asking you to pay for an air tank or a refirgerator, but you should not get
the LS for free just because the special effect is a common one. You have
to pay for the LS *despite* the use of an air tank or a refrigerator, not
*because* of it.
>Most people who create spaceships do not model the galley as part of the
>ship. They buy food and have the cook, cook it. The kitchen stove is not
>normally a checklist item when figuring the character point cost of any
>ship or base. Why should a refridgerator? (I am now imagining that
>someone is going to tell us about a base where some player wanted a 14-
>cooking laboratory to represent the kitchen.)
See above. The galley/dining hall/food storage pantry on the ship was paid
for only in terms of the number of hexes it all takes up, and as part of
the LS vs. eat/drink that the ship provides to its passengers and crew.
Normal, day-to-day operations do not require that we keep track of this in
any greater detail, just as character activity is not tracked on a
phase-by-phase basis when not in combat. The escape pod is a secondary
vehicle and is used only in case of potentially life-threatening emergency
where Life Support of the larger ship has been compromised. Now that a
state of emergency exists, it is appropriate to keep track of critical
functions like life support in more detail; the escape pod has limited
battery power, no generator, little in the way of storage space, and no
movement capability beyond weak maneuvering thrusters which do little more
than allow it to align itself with a compatible docking link to reconnect
to a rescue ship. You could easily be in a race to see which you run out
of first, food/water, air or heat. Characters within the pod may be able
to manage these limited (sorry, "in short supply") resources to stretch
them out, but you must be able to measure their ability to do so against
the rate of consumption.
>No, food does not cost points. The characters either have food, or they do
>not. There should not be a character point cost for remembering to pack
>emergency rations. At first, I thought you were modelling a replicator,
>but you said you aren't. A replicator would be a power to create food. A
>refridgerator is just an appliance, commonly available in any game where
>one finds life pods.
A gun or sword costs points if it is the SFX of a Killing Attack, A
skateboard costs points if it is the SFX for extra hexes of Running. Food
costs points if it is the SFX for Life Support. In each case, you are
paying for the Power, not the special effect. The pizza you had for dinner
last night wasn't Life Support, because you weren't going to starve without
it. The only edible substance in an escape pod for people who are going to
be in there for a week or more *is* Life Support because they'll die if
they don't eat for a sufficient number of days. There's nothing different
about the food, but the situation is critically different.
>No, I didn't. Read it again (note the five astericks). You don't need
>charges for LS, it's already persistent. Just a limitation is needed, "-1
>only feeds one people for one week or any combination thereof." If you
>don't like -1, use -1/2 or -2, it doesn't really matter because it only
>changes the real cost by one or two points.
LS doesn't need Charges, and I had already found that to be unsuitable
before I posted all this. In countdown-to-death situations (not in
day-to-day ship travel), LS does need some what of tracking rate of
consumption. Charges would have been the obvious way to go, but when I
tried it before I found it could make Limited LS cost much more than
unLimitied LS. GAZZA has suggested a way around that. But what you
suggest here does not readily allow for the stretching, or rapid
consumption, of the available LS resources. The value of the Limitation
fixes the comsumption rate: will feed one person for one week (two people
for 3.5 days, or seven people for one day, does not alter the rate of
consuption per person; going on half rations would).
>The reason I am being so argumentative is that I do not understand why you
>first thought to use END Reserve as the basis for a power involving Life
>Support. Even gasoline for a car models just fine as an END Reserve.
Because the whole point of this was to model Life Support that gradually
faded. Buying LS with the Limitation "Costs END" was the first attempt,
but the consumed resources weren't energy based, so END seemed awkward to
me.
>You are welcome. I know you didn't think it was ready for use. No offense
>intended. I just don't think Hero needs a Material Reserve.
Yes, you've made that clear. I thank you for not stooping to name calling
or insults during this difference of opinion. (And I'm not suggesting here
that's something you usually do.)
Damon
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 18:25:08 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
cc: hero-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Alternative to END Reserve
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Sun, 10 May 1998, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
> But what you
> suggest here does not readily allow for the stretching, or rapid
> consumption, of the available LS resources. The value of the Limitation
> fixes the comsumption rate: will feed one person for one week (two people
> for 3.5 days, or seven people for one day, does not alter the rate of
> consuption per person; going on half rations would).
Just to reiterate what I said in another post: express the amount of
food/water/air/scented napkins/whatever in terms of man-days. As in,
'This pod carries 7 man-days worth of supplies.' Divide the number of
man-days by the number of people in the pod, and you know how long you can
last.
Half rations and such doesn't work well for air, but for food and water,
you could do it - if you're on half rations you'll use half a man-day of
supplies per man per day. (Logical enough, eh?) Just remember to penalize
the people because they're not getting enough food and water - that's
definitely long term END loss and skill penalties right there.
J
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 22:39:12 -0400
To: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com&>
"Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: What would you do with 15 pts?
Cc: Hero List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 03:33 PM 5/10/98 -0700, Robert A. West wrote:
>Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
>> death... and what's the end result of all this complicated manuevering? 15
>> points in Wealth, which I could have just taken to start with if I felt the
>> need for billions of bucks.
>
>Hmmm...Time Travel as an SFX for Wealth.
Entirely valid for a starting character with 15 points of wealth. You just
have to say that the time travel device was destroyed before the game started.
Joe
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 20:15:34 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Copywrighting characters. (!)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Bryant Berggren wrote:
>
> At 07:32 PM 5/8/98 EDT, Hero Games wrote:
> >You cannot copyright a character per se, but you can gain some protection
> >overall for the character. For instance, Marvel protects its characters with
> >copyright, which covers the assemblage of "name, distinctive likeness, and
> >abilities" as well as the history and background.
>
> Um ... checking the legal notices on my comicbooks, it seems you've flubbed
Well, then a non-trivial number of copyright lawyers, as well as federal
judges have flubbed on this as well: my money is on the professionals.
As it was explained to me, the claims in question arise on the theory
that any work that copies 'the assemblage of "name, distinctive likeness,
and abilities" as well as the history and background.' is derivative of
the works that established the assemblage, and the exclusive right to
produce derivative works is protected under copyright law, and has been
since long before the 1978 reforms.
This sort of incremental expansion is the nature of case law, and is the
realm of the professional attorney. This is why anyone with half a brain
should consult one the moment that he believes he has any intellectual
property worth protecting.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: What would you do with 15 pts?
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 20:29:09 -0700
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From: Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin <griffin@txdirect.net>
>>When it comes to using time travel to it's fullest, you are way
>>behind.
>
>No, I simply realized that it would be a waste of everyone's time to
give a
>detailed analysis of every possible use to which I might put a power
that I
>could not possibly buy within the parameters of this little "what
if...?"
>game.
Sorry if I struck a nerve.
>Even if the XDM itself were affordable, the things you suggest would
>require additional purchases such as KS: Stock Market,
Or a library and a bit of research.
> FAM: International
>Banking,
Maybe, but I doubt it. It would take very little to go to a Swiss bank
and say, "I want a living trust set up in this fashion."
>plus a Perk, Skill or KS that would enable me to get good fake
>identification.
Go to a large city records department. Find someone who died within,
say, a year of their birth. Go to the place of birth and get a copy of
the birth certificate. Now get other ID.
If you are worried that people might somehow twig to this (unlikely,
as no one will be looking), then after obtaining ID, legally change
your name.
>On top of all that I have to know enough about the law to
>be able to ensure an "ironclad" will,
Since there will be no one to contest the will (the deceased had no
known friends or relatives), this can be done by any lawyer. In fact,
it can be easily be arranged by the bank. If you created a living
trust, you would simply say, "I want it this way", and so it is.
>I have to be able to fake my own
>death...
Buy a ticket on a plane that crashed and burned with virtually all
traces of the occupants destroyed. Show up, and at the last minute
avoid getting on the plane.
>and what's the end result of all this complicated manuevering? 15
>points in Wealth, which I could have just taken to start with if I
felt the
>need for billions of bucks.
But you would still have the time machine for everything else you
wanted. Furthermore, several of the things that you said that you
wanted the time machine for appeared to be ways to save money, and
would be pointless if you were that rich. Do you think someone with
billions would actually go to the trouble of using
time travel just to buy cheap gas?
>Yes, time travel would be a lot more versatile that that, but I gave
more
>uses for it it my offhand remarks than you did in your convoluted
>construction.
Perhaps. However, some of the uses (such as buying cheap gas) seemed
pointless, considering that becoming moderately wealthy with a time
machine is far easier than my plan, which is far easier than you seem
to think. Simply buying the right lottery ticket comes to mind, or
"selling short" on the stock market.
Filksinger
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 23:34:11 -0400
To: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net&>
hero-l@sysabend.org
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Alternative to END Reserve
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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At 05:56 PM 5/10/98 -0500, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
>I'm not trying to change the environment, but stabilize in in order to keep
>people alive for a while. It is, as you say, Life Support; a fridge or an
>air tank are merely containers for the SFX of that Life Support. No one is
>asking you to pay for an air tank or a refirgerator, but you should not get
>the LS for free just because the special effect is a common one. You have
>to pay for the LS *despite* the use of an air tank or a refrigerator, not
>*because* of it.
Well, at least we are arguing LS now. :-) The Change Environment was for
the fridge, CE 1/2 Hex, 40F degrees. I only said that LS should be used, I
did not say you can get it for free. In my second response to this thread,
I said:
>>If you are playing in a game where guns cost money then emergency food
costs >>money. If you have to pay points for normal equipment, then use
the power >>listed: LS: does not eat with appropriate limitations.
"Emergency food/air >>supply" is a SPECIAL EFFECT.
We are not disagreeing on this point.
>Characters within the pod may be able
>to manage these limited (sorry, "in short supply") resources to stretch
>them out, but you must be able to measure their ability to do so against
>the rate of consumption.
I don't know why you keep saying this. Just change the limitation text:
(2) LS: eat, sleep, excrete (5) -1/2, Eat only; -1, food last for 1 week
for 1 man on full rations, double if half rations, can be divided among
multiple people at the appropriate divided time.
I repeat:
>>Just a limitation is needed, "-1
>>only feeds one people for one week or any combination thereof." If you
>>don't like -1, use -1/2 or -2, it doesn't really matter because it only
>>changes the real cost by one or two points.
At -1 it costs 2, at -1/2 it costs 2, at -2 it costs 1. As I said in my
last post, changing the limitation only varies the cost by a few points.
For the life pod example, add in LS: Safe Environment Vacuum (3), LS: Safe
Environment Heat/Cold (3) -1/2, only while there is an atmosphere, and
energy for the heater.
>In countdown-to-death situations (not in day-to-day ship travel), LS does
need
>some what of tracking rate of consumption.
Done.
>But what you suggest here does not readily allow for the stretching, or rapid
>consumption, of the available LS resources.
Done.
>The value of the Limitation
>fixes the comsumption rate: will feed one person for one week (two people
>for 3.5 days, or seven people for one day, does not alter the rate of
>consuption per person; going on half rations would).
Not any more.
>Because the whole point of this was to model Life Support that gradually
>faded. Buying LS with the Limitation "Costs END" was the first attempt,
>but the consumed resources weren't energy based, so END seemed awkward to
>me.
This is faulty thinking. The LS does not gradually fade. It cuts out
immediately. "We have food."/"We don't have food." "We have clean
air."/"The air is going stale." Now, if you would like, we can make up
rules for dealing with stale air. Is there something about this in Star
Hero? Where's the cave-in rules from Spelunking Hero when you need them?
I would say 1D6 NND (LS: self-contained breathing, or fresh air area),
Continuous. And I'd use 2D6 or 3D6 NND (LS:Vacuum), Continuous for hard
vacuum.
>I thank you for not stooping to name calling
>or insults during this difference of opinion. (And I'm not suggesting here
>that's something you usually do.)
I could do that if you prefer it? :-)
Joe
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 21:36:24 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
To: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
bobby farris wrote:
> Here is my two cents.
> First, if you are running a four color campaign like the comics, forget
> it. I know it makes no sense at all, but it happens all the time in the comics.
> A building collapses and only Clark Kent survives and yet no one figures that
> Clark Kent is Superman. Happens all the time.
> On the other hand, if you are into the more realistic supers then here
> goes:
> I am no law expert, but a judge can issue a warrent on ANYTHING they
> want. So yes he "could" issue a warrent on the basis you listed. However, that
> warrent would NEVER stand up to any scrutiny and any information gained from it
> would be inadmissible in any court. Any thing discovered by a warrent that is
> issued without probable cause is inadmissable in court.
> I personally don't think the fact that she was at the location when a
> crime was commited is enough probable cause.
> Also, the judge issuing such an order would be placed under judicial
> review and "could" loose his job (unless he is a lifetime appointee).
> Of course, you PC still has to deal with the effects of the warrent
> being carried out and her secret ID known.
Never is a pretty strong word. While I am not familiar with American
law, the situation discribed seems to indicate that "Mutants" are less equal in
the sight of the law than others.
Yes, judges can issue a warrent for anything. The concept of a friendly
judge who will sign the bottom of the paper is fairly common throughout many TV
shows. Whether the evidence found was inadmissable doesn't apply, I dont think.
All evidence was found under a legal search warrent (Was it a valid reason given
on the warrent? Who cares. It was signed.) Enough circumstantial evidence can
be sufficent to allow a smudge of legality to the warrent.
Would the issueing of a search warrent without solid cause mean the judge
is for the high jump? Probarly not.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
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From: "Robert" <baron@stlnet.com>
To: "Champs" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 00:00:05 -0500
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>> In the game world, it is a crime to be an unregistered mutant. Blue Angel
is
>
>What is the penalty?
Usually? If it is proven that you committed a felony with your powers, 3 to
5 years can be tacked onto the end of your sentence. If you used your powers
to hurt people it is considered assault with a deadly weapon and you are
punished accordingly as well. Moreover, it is a FEDERAL offense to not
register your powers. If you saved a group of school kids from certain doom
of an escaped tyro rex, then they are a bit lenient on you and you get
probation, most likely. If you kept it a secret, and didn't use it to commit
crimes, its up to the leniency of the judge.
>Are unregistered mutants outside the protection of
>the law, to be hunted down and killed?
No. They are considered a public threat unless their powers are properly
cataloged and their abilities have been tested properly. It is also their
responsiblity to report any new powers which manifest themselves after
previous testing and cataloging. The federal group that does this has thus
far been EXTREMELY cordial and non-intrusive in the characters lives and
would continue to be so unless the powers which manifested would be a public
threat or they were being used for criminal purposes.
>which means a crime that is punishable by more than a year in prison.
>Moreover, felons are denied certain rights, including, in many states,
>the right to vote, the right to bear arms, etc. They may also lawfully
>be required to inform employers of their status, and the community may
>lawfully be notified of their presence pursuant to law.
>
Their identities are "sacred" according to the Federal agency in charge of
recording and monitoring and, when necessary providing an armed response to
paranormal occurences and metahumans. Of course, their database is getting
ready to be hacked by an infiltrator.... but thats a later sub-plot.
Anyway, if you are a metahuman, it is not required that you specify this to
new or prospective employers UNLESS you possess a power which may become a
hazard during the course of your job. Unfortunately, a lot of new employers
will consider MOST metahuman powers a risk but, by law, they cannot require
you take a DNA test for being a metahuman (nor could most afford the costly
test). When most employers find someone has mutant powers, their jobs are
usually at risk and their co-workers treat them differently. If they aren't
fired for non-disclosure, they probably won't last much longer in the normal
workforce. Now there are a LOT of law suits that have erupted because of
irate metahumans who were shut out of their jobs and black-balled by a
secret list going around which is headed up by good old Genocide. They
destroy their lives and then hunt them down when they've lost it all. Nice,
huh?
>Note that a law requiring certain citizens to register is prima facie a
>violation of the 5th and 14th Amendments: specifically the equal
>protection and due process clauses, unless it serves an urgent and
>vital public purpose (such as conscription) that cannot be served any
>other way. Assuming that the law has been in force for some time and is
>constitutional, then one of three things must be true:
>
>1) The law in question is actually a constitutional amendment, in which
>case an entire set of case law would have grown up concerning who is a
>mutant and how to apply Due Process of Law to cases where someone is
>accused of being a mutant.
>
> In this case, Mutants rights have been specifically, and
> we may hope carefully, circumscribed. If mass screenings
> are not common, then probable cause would apply.
>
Mass screenings are NOT common though if probable cause is given, then a DNA
warrant may be issued by the appropriate federal agency who is NOT required
to disclose those findings unless under Federal warrant..
>2) The courts have ruled that mutants are not persons, and therefore not
>entitled to constitutional protections, unless "naturalized" by
>registration.
Nope and there is a Metahuman Legal Defense Fund which works with the ACLU
as well to defend against the rights of metahumans are preserved.
>3) The courts have ruled that mutants are a Clear and Present Danger that
>government cannot be expected to protect against unless some liberties
>are suspended.
>
> This case would involve the most case law, since a mutant's
> right to free speech is dangerous only if the mutant has
> Mind Control, but the right against searches might not
> apply even to registered mutants.
>
>> Angela Bartonelli is the only alive person they pull out of the wreckage
of
>> the building in the relative position of where Blue Angel went down.
Every
>> other body found in that area within 30 meters is dead except for Angela
who
>> is at the center of this area.
>
>Presence at the scene of a violent crime creates reasonable suspicion
>that the person is somehow involved. Being the only survivor of a
>disaster creates reasonable suspicion that there is some reason for this.
>If there is also a reasonable suspicion that the reason may involve a
>criminal act, some, perhaps most courts would find probable cause.
>
>If a person may represent a grave public danger, then there is a public
>reason to act with less evidence than otherwise, and even a warrantless
>search may be reasonable. For example, police are allowed to break down
>a door if they hear a scream inside, or to follow a violent suspect into
>his house without a warrant. In this situation, there is no such
>urgency, but the vital importance of enforcing the Mutant Registration
>Law could be a determining factor in granting and sustaining the warrant.
>
>> Blue Angel is the relative size and body type
>> of Angela but glows brilliantly blue. The camera and all spectators note
>> that all Blue Angel did was appear on the scene and was not seen
committing
>> a crime or assisting with criminal efforts in any way.
>
>The last point is absolutely false. If being an unregistered mutant is a
>serious crime, then Blue Angel is continually committing a crime by
>existing. Analogy: it is a crime in the U.S. to own a machine gun
>without a Federal Firearms License. The courts have ruled that this
>means that the owner is continually committing a crime, without being
>involved in any other criminal activity. BTW, it is not necessary to
>prove that the person knew it was a machine gun to get a conviction, and
>proving that one did not know is not a defence unless one also proves due
>diligence. A reasonable gun owner uses his guns often enough to know
>their capabilities.
>
>In fact, Blue Angel is guilty of murder. Under the felony murder rule,
>any person who commits a felony is criminally responsible for any deaths
>that occur in forseeable consequence of that felony as if those deaths
>were intentional and malicious. Angela is an unregistered mutant, and
>being an unregistered mutant is a felony. Moreover, it is common
>knowledge that Genocide hunts down unregistered mutants, thereby creating
>a public danger. Accordingly, failing to register evidences a reckless
>disregard for the public safety and a willingness to risk a catastrophe.
>In this case, the catastrophe came and numerous people died, which would
>probably not have happened had she been registered. In fact, this is the
>purpose of the registration law in the first place: to prevent
>catastrophes.
>
So you are saying that, since she is a mutant, and certain groups hunt
mutants illegally, that she is guilty of murder by arriving on the scene and
being fired upon by a subversive group which was armed with illegal
weaponry. And since the illegal weaponry and her mutant abilities were what
caused the building to fall (that and the now known fact that the foundation
of the building was weakened by a tunneling super-villain), she is guilty of
committing murder because deaths resulted in her arrival and the fact that
she is an unregistered mutant who is unsanctioned to operate in any
capacity. Since she has powers and willfully chose not to register them,
this makes her a criminal which makes her responsible for the deaths in the
eyes of the law?
Cool.... A new plot has just erupted.
>The similarity of Angela and Blue Angel, the known ability of mutants to
>change form, and the absence of glowing blue bodies comes close to
>probable cause in and of itself. If the bodies can be tested to see if
>any were mutants, then the absence of any unregistered mutants among them
>would certainly raise level to probable cause. Courts have the right to
>look at a mass of evidence, none sufficient in itself, and conclude that
>the totality consitutes probable cause.
>
>Moreover, the probability that Genocide will continue to hunt down Blue
>Angel and cause more fatalities militates for the public safety and
>against Angela's rights.
>
>>
>> When Angela Bartonelli is taken to the hospital, she walks out of the
>> unsupervised ward (it was not known at the time of her escape that she
was a
>> possible mutant.)
>
>This level of carelessness is well documented in the real world, and is
>dramatically appropriate.
>
>>
>> With this information, could the FBI get a search warrant on her home and
>> car? Why and what could the probable cause be?
>
>Reasons:
>
> On or about <time,date,location> John Doe, deceased, used
> weapons and tactics appropriate to a Genocide Agent to attack
> Blue Angel, a paranormal and suspected mutant.
>
> We ask the court to take Judicial Notice that Genocide attacks
> mutants, especially unregistered mutants, and that the purpose
> of the Mutant Registration Act is to reduce the number of
> calamities resulting from this conflict. We also ask Judicial
> Notice of the known range of mutant powers and abilities.
>
> In the course of aforementioned attack, a building was destroyed,
> killing John Doe and numerous bystanders. The only survivor was
> Angela Bartonelli. The engineering report hereto attached shows
> that Angela was as the very center of the explosion, in a place
> where survival is vanishingly improbable.
>
> A thorough check of bodies shows none with mutations strong
> enough to be Blue Angel, and no witness saw Blue Angel leave
> the scene. Moreover, Angela is similar in appearance to
> Blue Angel, except for the blue glow, which is well within
> the known powers of mutants.
>
>There would probably also be a backup request for a warrant citing the
>clear and present public danger as a compelling cause to accept a lower
>standard of proof.
>
>They would probably request a search of Angela's apartment, and to seize
>anything remotely resembling evidence of being a mutant. Also they would
>request an arrest warrant for the purpose of compelling DNA evidence.
>
>
>>
>> I reasoned the judge was anti-mutant and the circumstantial evidence of
>> Angela being Blue Angel was overwhelming, but it IS just circumstantial.
>
>Circumstantial evidence is all that one has for most warrants.
>
>
>> Could a judge support (or more importantly could the Law support) a
warrant
>> for her apartment and home to search for records, statements, or data
>> (written or electronic) that would indicate a tie between her and the
Mutant
>> Militia or could the warrant only support a search for evidence of Angela
>> being a mutant?
>
>The warrant would probably only support looking for evidence that she is
>a mutant; however, investigators are allowed to consider evidence of any
>crime that they find in the course of a proper search. For example, if
>they are authorized to look at computer files looking for evidence that
>she has attempted to evade detection and they find the Mutant Militia's
>plans for robbing the First National Bank, they can properly use that.
>If, on the other hand, they are only authorized to seize Angela for a DNA
>test, then they cannot look at her computer for any purpose.
>
>Basically, if evidence of Militia activity is in a place where one might
>reasonably look for evidence of being a mutant, and the investigators are
>competent, the evidence will be found and introduced. Of course, there
>will be a motion to suppress, and many judges suppress evidence for no
>discernable reason, while others wouldn't suppress the most eggregious
>evidence.
>
>>
>> I know that if the evidence tying her to the militia is discovered that
it
>> is inadmissable UNLESS it goes towards proving that she knew she was a
>> mutant and was willingly hiding that fact. I think.
>
>What you think you know is false. If the evidence was found pursuant to
>a proper search, it can be introduced for any purpose. The cases that
>you are thinking of generally result from narrowly constructed warrants
>that the police try to stretch.
>
>The following examples involve a warrant to search Angela's apartment of
>evidence of being a mutant. There is a door communicating with the next
>apartment, which is not Angela's.
>
>
> 1) The door is closed. The police open it and search.
> Result: any evidence found in the next apartment is
> inadmissable, since the premises were not covered and there
> was no compelling reason to enter.
>
> 2) The door between the two is open, and a machine gun is
> visible through the open doorway, so the police seize it. In
> the process they see other evidence now in plain sight.
> Result: all evidence is admissable: police are not required to
> ignore evidence of a dangerous weapon in plain sight.
>
> 3) The door between the two is open, and a plant is visible
> that may (or may not) be marijuana. The police go in and find
> that it is marijuana, and find other evidence in plain sight.
> Result: all evidence, including the marijuana, found in the
> next apartment is inadmissible, since the police were not
> searching for marijuana, and there was no urgent need to enter.
>
>Of course, with a judge, your mileage will vary. You can justify any
>decision you want, but if the government is serious about getting
>mutants, and the players don't have script immunity, then she has just
>acquired a Hunted by FBI: wanted for murder.
Actually the character is an NPC who is kind of an innocent lamb in all of
this. She did, indeed, unwittingly lead the Mutant Militia to the knowledge
of the research being done. Here's the plot. Keep in mind that the Impergium
is an elite group of Genocide and AMPERSAT is the agency responsible for
registering, recording, and containing paranormal and metahuman instances
The Plot
Dr. Tobias Rich is a university professor who teaches genetics. He used to
work for a number of government projects but know teaches and conducts his
own private investigations into Meta-huma genetics. He believes his funding
comes from a benevolent foreign company from Switzerland. Dr. Tobias Rich is
actually unwittingly being funded by the Impergium to develop a “cure” for
mutant traits that cause the metahuman anomalies to develop. Impergium
secretly stations agents in the Campus Security and local police force to
guard the doctor’s work.
Mentor and The Mutant Militia discover that the Impergium is funding the
work of Dr. Tobias Rich. Ethel Winslow, Dr. Rich’s lab assistant, let her
friend, Angela Bartonelli (aka Blue Angel) know what type of research Dr.
Rich was doing. Angela, a paranoid and willfully unregistered mutant, was in
contact with Surge (One of Mentor’s cronies whose mutant powers help him
interface with computers) through the Alphaville Holocaust network. She
inadvertantly told Surge about Dr. Rich’s research in a meeting in which
Surge was trying to recruit her to work with the Militia. Surge bugged her
apartment and car as well to make sure she was on the up and up. During
their meeting, she had second thoughts and decided not to join because she
thought the Militia was to militant and subversive. Surge politely said he
understood and gave her the number for the Meta-Human Legal Defense Fund in
case she ever needed it.
The Mutant Militia’s Longbow infiltrates the Genetic Research center in
order to kidnap the doctor and his assistant and any and all work related to
this research. She is doing so quietly when the undercover Impergium agents
discover her and get trigger-happy. They start firing. She high-tails it to
the bottom floor where the rest of the group (Rumble, Crusha-G, Blackstorm,
and Glacier) lay in wait. The Impergium agents are routed and disarmed with
minor casualties. Glacier seals off the back exits and Crusha-G rounds up
the hostages as the others make their way to the lab. The professor and his
assistant are gone. They do a floor to floor search. Cops arrive and Glacier
kills two officers.
Angela Bartonelli, who is in the Medical research facility next to the
Genetic Research Building, hears the building is being evacuated because of
the Mutant Militia showing up next door. She realizes that she is to blame
for the Mutant Militia attack because of the information she has given and
changes to her Blue Angel form. She is on route to the Genetic Research
building when she is spotted by the police, one of whom is an Impergium
agent armed with a high-tech LAW. She is fired upon and hit by the LAW which
sends her into the building. The LAW rocket reacts with her field causing an
explosion which caused the Medical Research Facility (whose foundation had
already been weakened by Rumble’s tunneling) to collapse onto Blue Angel and
the police who had arrived in the parking lot.
Glacier threatens to kill the innocent hostages on a whim. Longbow
physically threatens him with an arrow. The rest of the team backs Longbow.
Glacier relents but wit a mild threat to Longbow.
AMPERSAT arrives. Crusha-G and Glacier hold the AMPERSAT agents off while
Longbow and Blackstorm look for the professor and his assistant. Rumble is
busy relocating the cannister of the Prometheus solution to the escape route
in the basement. Glacier kills three AMPERSAT agents against orders by
Longbow.
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Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 05:16:16 -0500
To: "Champs" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 01:40 PM 5/11/98 -0500, Robert wrote:
>Not all black people are born with the ability to level mountains with a
>thought or produce flames from their hands at the age of 13. Mutants are
>registered because they can pose a severe public threat. Just as handguns
>and explosives and drugs are regulated, so must the powers of metahumans.
"Must" is a dangerous word, and a highly arguable one.
>Why? Because if they aren't, then it could cause a public hazard.
Yes, it could. On the other hand, many people have the ability to create a
public hazard without possessing any powers at all. I could probably rack up
a pretty high body count with just my bare hands and a crowbar, but I don't
have to "register" with the government. And many mutant powers will NOT be
public hazards, or at least no more hazardous than any mundane skill -- the
Angel's wings (his /natural/ ones) are a curiosity, but they sure the heck
aren't a public hazard.
> You have a constitutional right to bear arms. Why can't you buy a flame
> thrower from a local gun shop?
Because flamethrowers aren't firearms, and wouldn't be made by or for a
*gun* shop? Because there's not much of a civilian market for a clumsy
weapon with little utility in hunting or self-defense situations?
> You have a Constitutional right to free
> speech, then why can't you curse at the top of your lungs in the middle
> of town square or say "I want to kill the president."? (Yes, that IS
> illegal, btw).
Because nothing forces the Powers That Be to actually enforce the laws as
written. Strictly speaking, the laws that make such things illegal ARE in
conflict with the Constitution, and thus should be considered
unconstitutional and invalid. But if it's more expedient to pretend
otherwise, the pretense will be made.
> You have the freedom of religion where, theoretically, the government
> cannot interfere with your religious practices. Then why cannot the
> Rastafari smoke marijuana when it is a valid part of their religion?
> Why? Because each one of these things present a (supposed) public
> threat, ergo, your rights to do these things are suspended in certain
> circumstances.
Or so the pretense may go.
> So much for our constitution. I don't think its that much of a stretch to
> have metahumans have to register their powers and identity with a Federal
> agency. Seems intelligent.
In the same manner that concentration camps during WWII seemed intelligent.
At the least, they were *wonderful* for the German economy -- viewed in a
coldly pragmatic light, it's downright brilliant.
> It also seems like an invasion of privacy and it would seem inteligent of
> a mutant to not want to register. Thats why its a crime not to. Incentives
> await those who register, sentences await those who don't. Scary, ain't it.
Actually, it's just not that intelligent in the first place. The doctrine
goes that mutants must have their rights restricted, because they are
dangerous. If the law has the ability to ENFORCE this restriction, then
mutants probably aren't *actually* that dangerous than normal people, and
the law is based more on bigotry than common sense. If the law doesn't have
the ability to enforce the restriction, then it's a bad idea to invoke it
even if it would make sense, because you'll merely be *ensuring* those
mutants will become public hazards, by antagonizing them to the point of
rebellion.
--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
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Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 12:00:34 +0100
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
To: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
>
> >10pt variable power pool
> >Control cost at -1 (Takes a whole turn to change)
> >3pt skill (Being really cool with my pool!)
> >
> >Just because I really want to make the most of these points, and I'm
> >cheesy, and I can't believe that nobody else though of it...
>
> At least one other person did think of it, and both of you apparently
> failed to notice the "no frameworks" caveat. That's what kept me from
> choosing the same thing (the VPP, not the Skill you created to go with it)
<SNIP!>
Doh doh and doh again!
I'll be back on this one.....
--
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Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 12:00:34 +0100
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
To: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
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Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
>
> >10pt variable power pool
> >Control cost at -1 (Takes a whole turn to change)
> >3pt skill (Being really cool with my pool!)
> >
> >Just because I really want to make the most of these points, and I'm
> >cheesy, and I can't believe that nobody else though of it...
>
> At least one other person did think of it, and both of you apparently
> failed to notice the "no frameworks" caveat. That's what kept me from
> choosing the same thing (the VPP, not the Skill you created to go with it)
<SNIP!>
Doh doh and doh again!
I'll be back on this one.....
--
_==/ i i \==_
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"\ " \X/ " /"
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Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 08:48:35 -0500
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: What would you do with 15 pts?
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>Maybe, but I doubt it. It would take very little to go to a Swiss bank
>and say, "I want a living trust set up in this fashion."
It would, at minimum, require a passport I don't have. There goes one of
my 15 points.
>If you are worried that people might somehow twig to this (unlikely,
>as no one will be looking), then after obtaining ID, legally change
>your name.
And quit your job, perhaps avoid potential curiosity from friends and
acquaintances by moving to a town where no one knows you...if you are
married (I am) resolve the complications the new identity will create for
your wife and kids, your parents, your wife's family...
>But you would still have the time machine for everything else you
>wanted.
What you've spent all this time describing could, as someone else noted, be
defined as Wealth with an SFX of time travel. In that case, you don't
still have the time machine for anything else. I realize this isn't what
you were going for, but again you haven't described using it for anything
other than making a huge pile of money, and not even doing that in a
simple, straightforward way.
>Furthermore, several of the things that you said that you
>wanted the time machine for appeared to be ways to save money, and
>would be pointless if you were that rich. Do you think someone with
>billions would actually go to the trouble of using
>time travel just to buy cheap gas?
Again, a detailed breakdown seemed unnecessary, so I just listed a few
things off the top of my head. Saving money was in many cases a nice
bonus, but not the main point. For example, the Shadow magazines I
mentioned. They originally sold for a dime and came out once or twice a
month. There were 325 issues, printed on the cheap, acidic paper that was
in common use at the time. The acid in the paper causes the magazines to
self destruct over time. I have bought a few such magazines over the last
few years, paying anywhere from $25 to $65 apiece for them, and they are
very brittle and fragile, so that I have to carefully photocopy the
original, then use the copy as a reading copy. Loose pages being
inconvenient for this, I also have to buy binders for the copies.
It would be a lot more convenient for me if I could travel back to a 1930's
newsstand, buy the magazine new, and be able to use the original as the
reading copy. It would still self-destruct eventually from the acid, but
probably not within my lifetime, and in the meantime I get to enjoy the
original cover art, avoid the work of copying and binding a bunch of pulp
magazines, etc. It's unlikely I'd ever sell my copies, though nothing
prevents me from buying multiple copies at that old newsstand, to resell at
a fantastic profit. But the main objective would be to get the magazine in
good shape, not to grab several "mint" copies of every issue and resell
them in the future for enough money to live on.
Shadow radio shows, even better. Hundreds of weekly Shadow radio programs
were broadcast over 21 seasons of radio, but only about 200 of these shows
are known to have survived to present day in any form. Some may never have
been recorded, just broadcast live. Those that were recorded were on glass
cylinders and wax disks, fragile media. I could get copies of these
missing shows. Money isn't a primary issue here, since they aren't
available at any price right now. I could try to sell copies when I
returned with them, but I'm sure that Conde Nast, the copyright holder for
the Shadow, would take a dim view of that. Perhaps you will suggest that
with my billions I should buy the rights from them, or indeed buy the
company itself?
>Perhaps. However, some of the uses (such as buying cheap gas) seemed
>pointless, considering that becoming moderately wealthy with a time
>machine is far easier than my plan, which is far easier than you seem
>to think. Simply buying the right lottery ticket comes to mind, or
>"selling short" on the stock market.
If I were going to drive to some nearby city to attend a concert that took
place 25 years ago, it'd be silly to gas up before making the time trip;
travel back, buy the cheap gas, then make the drive. Again, a side
benefit. But you're right, I shouldn't have brought it up earlier if I
hadn't thought of it as an important consideration.
You and I will just have to agree to disagree on how easy your plan is. I
am not at all convinced that everything you described could be pulled off
after a few trips to the library. The success of the overall plan relies
heavily on the assumption that no one is going to be looking at any of the
individual steps. I don't say it *can't* be done, just that I sure as hell
would never attempt anything so complicated when I could just win last
month's lottery drawing instead, under my own name, without having to set
up international bank accounts, fake identities and trust funds for myself,
etc. I had sort of wondered why you hadn't mentioned those simpler methods
before.
If I had a time machine I would certainly use it at some point to become at
least moderately wealthy, but so long as I have enough money that my wife
and I don't need to work, my daughter can attend whatever college she
wants, and I can fund my various collections to keep myself amused, what
else do I need? No need for billions, a few million will do just fine.
:)
The idea of gaining lots of varied Powers via Transform is suspect, and
certainly if any player came to me with a "Transform Rock to Time Machine"
construct, he'd have a hell of a time convincing me that there was any
possible rational explanation for how his character came to acquire that
specific power. (Transform Rock to Anything would cost more, once again
pushing us past the limits of the "what if...?" game, so I'm only
considering the minimum-cost version here.)
Time travel using XDM seems to me to be the only way to go, and it can't be
had for 15 points, given a -1 Limitation cap. As is often the case with
time travel, this brings us, at the end, back to our starting point.
Damon
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Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 09:58:08 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: PBEM game
Cc: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by "WG Rowland"
> Can anyone direct me on a way to find a PBeM game (preferrably
Champions
or Fantasy Hero) that is currently looking for people? I'm new to PBeM,
and
so far all of my searching has led to interresting accounts of closed
games..<
I've been searching for a long time now, and PBeMs with open slots are
pretty much non-existent. It seems the only way to get in is to be a
lurker for a long time and hope that the GM will pick you if a player drops
out. I don't have the time to fight for table scraps like that....
Somebody else said it already, but basically the only way to get into a
game is to start one yourself. This totally defeats the purpose I had
behind joining a PBeM. I'm *always* the GM in our face-to-face group, so I
was hoping a PBeM would give me a chance to be a player instead. No such
luck....
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Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 09:19:12 -0500
To: hero-l@sysabend.org
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Alternative to END Reserve
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>Well, at least we are arguing LS now. :-)
The sequence in the development of the idea (prior to my posting it here)
went like this:
1. An escape pod must provide LIFE SUPPORT, but only for a limited time.
2. Charges of LIFE SUPPORT (as I tried them at the time) didn't work
because the cost was much greater than the cost would have been for LIFE
SUPPORT with no duration limit.
3. Applying a "Costs END" Limitation to the [normally persistent] LIFE
SUPPORT meant I could set up an END Reserve in order to track the
consumable resources (food, etc.) that made up the SFX of the LIFE SUPPORT.
4. I usually think of END Reserve as a battery, an energy storage device.
Food, water and so on are material items, not raw energy. I wondered if a
physical (by that I just beam solid or tangible, not biological) version of
an END reserve could be created to serve this purpose, storing the SFX of
the LIFE SUPPORT as consumable physical units rather than as recoverable
energy.
We were arguing LS from the beginning, you just got hung up on a couple of
details because you thought I wanted characters to pay points for their
weekly groceries and their 14.2 cubic foot Frigidaire home appliance. I
never once said anything like that, and I do apologize for whatever lack of
clarity on my part made you think I had.
>This is faulty thinking. The LS does not gradually fade. It cuts out
>immediately. "We have food."/"We don't have food." "We have clean
>air."/"The air is going stale." Now, if you would like, we can make up
>rules for dealing with stale air. Is there something about this in Star
>Hero? Where's the cave-in rules from Spelunking Hero when you need them?
Day 1: "We have enough food for all of us for two weeks."
Day 8: "We have enough foor for all of us for one week."
Day 12: "We can last another week if we go on half-rations."
Day 16: "We have to cut back to starvation level, one meal every other day."
It sounds like it's gradually failing to me, even if there's no difference
in the health of the crew over those first several days. Granted, the
effects of failing LS will be apparent in the air and heat much more
quickly than with food. That is, if those other systems fail, characters
will suffer sooner from the failure of the LS.
I cut most of the other stuff above, but I didn't disregard it. It's
possible that a Limitation on LS, sufficiently broadly defined, could
accomplish the same thing that GAZZA (is that normally all caps, BTW? I've
only seen it in the message header, where it was in all caps) suggested
when he pointed out I could more broadly define what constituted a Charge
of LS. I think I prefer the Charges notion, but that doesn't imply
anything wrong with what you said here. Just personal preference.
>>I thank you for not stooping to name calling
>>or insults during this difference of opinion. (And I'm not suggesting here
>>that's something you usually do.)
>
>I could do that if you prefer it? :-)
Sigh!
<sarcasm>Yes, please do. Didn't I make it clear when I thanked you for
*not* doing it, that I was actually asking to be verbally abused?</sarcasm>
Damon
---------------------
When the masochist says "Hurt me" the sadist smiles and says "No".
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: PBEM game
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 10:52:08 -0400
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On Monday, May 11, 1998 9:58 AM, David Stallard
[SMTP:DBStallard@compuserve.com] wrote:
> I've been searching for a long time now, and PBeMs with open slots are
> pretty much non-existent. It seems the only way to get in is to be a
> lurker for a long time and hope that the GM will pick you if a player
drops
> out. I don't have the time to fight for table scraps like that....
>
> Somebody else said it already, but basically the only way to get into a
> game is to start one yourself.
One note that may help: just send your best character to anyone running a
PBeM. I was looking for a long time, and I tried this out desperation last
year. One guy really liked the work and creativity I put into the character
and decided to invite me in. I gratefully accepted and out of gratitude, I
work to make every contribution creative and interesting. Since then, I've
had two other unsolicited invites to join PBeM games, so I guess word gets
around.
Not tooting my own horn or anything. Just something that worked for me and
might work for you.
Jason Goode
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Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 23:15:06 +0800
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au>
Reply-To: gazza@wantree.com.au
Organization: Only One Inc.
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: CHAR: WC: Nur al-Allah
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> > > Wildcard (Ace) Powers:
> > > 25 Compelling Voice: Oratory 25-
> >
> > Not enough... the Nur needs Mind Control. The only way Oratory skill alone
> > could enable him to do what he did is if you use the -10 modifier for
> > "impossible" feats, and that rule is intended for farce campaigns as far
> > as I can tell.
>
> The pook stats taht Nur has no t mental powers and cannot coerce someone
> by mental force. His voice is compelling and tends to sway the masses.
> He has no mental powers in GURPS, just an obscene Oratory roll.
With all due respect, GURPS isn't exactly something I'd use as a cast
iron reference point. GURPS handles super heroes poorly, even
'realistic' supers like Wild Cards.
When I left last time, there wasn't a lot of respect for the Ultimate
Mentalist. At the risk of possibly lynching myself, then, might I suggest
that giving the Nur Mind Control based on PRE is pretty much what
we're after here? (Requires a Skill Roll may or may not be an
appropriate limitation).
>From the source - the novels themselves - I would say that Nur
certainly has a mental power, triggered by his voice. GURPS has no
way to model this without its clumsy limitations/advantages; Hero
can (with the Ultimate Mentalist mods, anyway).
--
GAZZA (gazza@wantree.com.au; http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza)
"To know others is wisdom. To know oneself is enlightment."
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Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 23:23:11 +0800
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au>
Reply-To: gazza@wantree.com.au
Organization: Only One Inc.
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Points For Perks
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<x-html><HTML>
Whilst skimming through the 'what would you do to yourself
<BR>with 15 points' thread (see my later post for my analysis of
<BR>current topics - if you have a sense of humour), I notice that
<BR>many people choose 'Wealth' or various other perks.
<P>This leads into a side thread - how many of you charge points
<BR>for Perks? I charge for Bases, Vehicles, or Followers - but I've
<BR>never bothered requiring people to spend points for Contacts
<BR>or Favours, for example, or Passports and the like.
<P>"What? You let players start with any of these???"
<P>Well, sure, if they have an appropriate back story. It can't be
<BR>abusive unless you let it be. The alternative is almost a punishment:
<BR>
<UL>
<LI>
Heroes save Mayor from the Flying Purple People Eater</LI>
<LI>
Heroes have to spend some of their hard earned experience to purchase the
Mayor as a Contact (or, at least, a Favour).</LI>
<LI>
Heroes think twice about saving the President the next time: "Sorry, Mr
Clinton, but I can't afford you as a Contact. Give my regards to oblivion."</LI>
</UL>
Sure, you can hand out these as 'bonus experience', but that's
<BR>functionally equivalent to making it free, right?
<P>--
<BR>GAZZA (gazza@wantree.com.au; <A HREF="http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza">http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza</A>)
<BR>"To know others is wisdom. To know oneself is enlightment."
<BR> </HTML>
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Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 23:27:30 +0800
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au>
Reply-To: gazza@wantree.com.au
Organization: Only One Inc.
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: PBEM game
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> Somebody else said it already, but basically the only way to get into a
> game is to start one yourself. This totally defeats the purpose I had
> behind joining a PBeM. I'm *always* the GM in our face-to-face group, so I
> was hoping a PBeM would give me a chance to be a player instead. No such
> luck....
Some of you may remember that I dallied with a Hero PBeM once
before (it was abandoned largely due to timing problems - slow
players, in other words). Other games are easier to balance in
this fashion due to less emphasis on time (eg Amber - perhaps the
best vehicle for PBeM games).
I can't help anyone who wants a Hero PBeM at present, but if you're
not as choosy about the game itself I have two suggestions. Firstly,
try the Amber mailing list - there are lots of Amber PBeMs, and many
accept new players on occasion.
Secondly, I'm toying with the idea of starting an AD&D Birthright PBeM
soon; if anyone is interested in 'the old game', let me know.
Sorry for the slightly off-topic response here.
--
GAZZA (gazza@wantree.com.au; http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza)
"To know others is wisdom. To know oneself is enlightment."
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Reply-To: "Lisa Hartjes" <beren@unforgettable.com>
From: "Lisa Hartjes" <beren@unforgettable.com>
To: "David Stallard" <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Cc: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: PBEM game
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:36:32 -0400
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Message text written by "WG Rowland"
> Can anyone direct me on a way to find a PBeM game (preferrably
Champions or Fantasy Hero) that is currently looking for people? I'm new to
PBeM, and so far all of my searching has led to interresting accounts of
closed
games..<
I'm not sure if someone has already mentioned this, but the Irony Games web
site has a page where GM's can announce new games and the fact they're
looking for players. You might want to give them a try at
http://www.irony.com .
Lisa Hartjes
beren@unforgettable.com
Home: http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/daniken/79
"If men can run the world, why can't they stop wearing neckties?
How intelligent is it to start the day tying a little noose around your
neck?"
Linda Ellerbe
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Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 23:41:22 +0800
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au>
Reply-To: gazza@wantree.com.au
Organization: Only One Inc.
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: GAZZA's Analysis of the Champions List
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<x-html><HTML>
(WARNING: The following contains GAZZA's attempts at humour.
<BR>This is perhaps not for the faint hearted. Proceed at your own risk,
<BR>and send all flames to /dev/null)
<P>After a long hiatus, GAZZA (I usually use all caps, BTW, allthough
<BR>I don't mind one way or the other) was enticed back into the fold
<BR>with that most seductive of promises - bare faced flattery.
<P>(Thank you to all who have welcomed me back; I'll get around to
<BR>personally thanking you eventually).
<P>At first, I suggested that I would simply lurk for a time - but a brief
<BR>self-analysis suggests that I have not really done so. I have skimmed
<BR>many of the threads:
<UL>
<LI>
"What would you do to yourself with 15 points?" - Some interesting suggestions
here. Wealth is always good, I suppose, but I tend to prefer the suggestion
of 20 COM and Improved Seduction roll myself. I'm not sure what to make
of this thread; it seems like it was started as a parody. What I want to
know is - how do I go about earning these experience points, and can I
save up and get a radiation accident? The usual methods of earning the
points are denied me, since I seem to have a shortage of available supervillains
to defeat. What would _I_ do with 15 points? I didn't catch the start of
the thread, so I'm not sure if powers are allowed, but if so I'd pull off
the Infinite Aid trick...</LI>
<LI>
In passing, I note that there is STILL a call for an increase in the price
of STR (in some ways, it seems like I never left. :-) ). I find this particularly
ironic since Fuzion equalised the cost of ALL the attributes...</LI>
<LI>
Two completely unrelated threads - one about the possible discovery of
an illegal mutant, and another about copyrighting characters - are related
by the detailed legal analysis both were subsequently subjected to. I really
hope I never have a lawyer as a player - I suspect I'd become a landmark
case for the first GM ever sued by one of his players...</LI>
<LI>
A few thoughts on 'running out' Life Support. In typical (and familiar)
fashion, there still appears to be a lot of "look, that's a stupid idea"
mentality here. The more things change, the more they stay the same. Personally,
I thought the basic principle was a good one - but judging by some of the
responses, I am led to wonder whether he executed any of your first born
children.</LI>
</UL>
I'm glad to be back; hopefully I can contribute in a somewhat
<BR>meaningful fashion.
<P>There's just one question I _HAVE_ to ask - how long has it been since
<BR>your last Great Linked Debate? :-)
<P>--
<BR>GAZZA (gazza@wantree.com.au; <A HREF="http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza">http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza</A>)
<BR>"To know others is wisdom. To know oneself is enlightment."
<BR> </HTML>
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Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:46:02 -0400
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Points For Perks
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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At 11:23 PM 5/11/98 +0800, GAZZA wrote:
>
> This leads into a side thread - how many of you charge points
> for Perks? I charge for Bases, Vehicles, or Followers - but I've
> never bothered requiring people to spend points for Contacts
> or Favours, for example, or Passports and the like.
We charge for some perks ... mainly the ones mentioned above. We
also allow the things in that list (passports, police powers, etc.)
depending upon the character background.
We also allow characters to buy Wealth and Followers.
I think the only thing we restrict would be Favors. (I think we
restrict it ... Nobody's ever tried to buy it outright before.)
That is handed out in lieu of, or in addition to experience points.
I don't think of it as being "free", however. Awarding a 2-point
favor is more of a restriction than awarding the 2 points to be
spent as the player desires.
====================== =================================================
Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
====================== =================================================
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Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:54:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: CHAR: WC: Nur al-Allah
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On Mon, 11 May 1998, GAZZA wrote:
> When I left last time, there wasn't a lot of respect for the Ultimate
> Mentalist. At the risk of possibly lynching myself, then, might I suggest
> that giving the Nur Mind Control based on PRE is pretty much what
> we're after here? (Requires a Skill Roll may or may not be an
> appropriate limitation).
Okay... any suggestions as how to model a power that affects everyone that
can hear it? Mind Control, No Range with absurd levels of AOE: Radius?
Limitations that one must be able to hear the speech clearly?
> From the source - the novels themselves - I would say that Nur
> certainly has a mental power, triggered by his voice. GURPS has no
> way to model this without its clumsy limitations/advantages; Hero
> can (with the Ultimate Mentalist mods, anyway).
I'm open to ideas on how to best model it.
***************************************************************************
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* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
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Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:07:39 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au>
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: CHAR: WC: Nur al-Allah
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On Mon, 11 May 1998, GAZZA wrote:
> > > > Wildcard (Ace) Powers:
> > > > 25 Compelling Voice: Oratory 25-
> > >
> > > Not enough... the Nur needs Mind Control. The only way Oratory skill alone
> > > could enable him to do what he did is if you use the -10 modifier for
> > > "impossible" feats, and that rule is intended for farce campaigns as far
> > > as I can tell.
> >
> > The pook stats taht Nur has no t mental powers and cannot coerce someone
> > by mental force. His voice is compelling and tends to sway the masses.
> > He has no mental powers in GURPS, just an obscene Oratory roll.
>
> With all due respect, GURPS isn't exactly something I'd use as a cast
> iron reference point. GURPS handles super heroes poorly, even
> 'realistic' supers like Wild Cards.
> >From the source - the novels themselves - I would say that Nur
> certainly has a mental power, triggered by his voice. GURPS has no
> way to model this without its clumsy limitations/advantages; Hero
> can (with the Ultimate Mentalist mods, anyway).
OK, I haven't read this particular Wild Cards novel. Just what does this
guy do that can't be explained by an extremely high PRE, Oratory,
Leadership, etc? Does he actually ever make anyone act against their
inclinations? From the description posted with the character, it seemed
like he was an excellent speaker and had a 'glowing green aura' that
basically made Islamic folks believe he was some sort of holy man.
To me, that says, 'Really high PRE with visible Power Effects'...
J
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj
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From: "Andreano, Keith HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com>
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: A Matter of Law
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:10:17 -0500
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>>I have a possibly sticky situation in my game.
><snip>
>What advances the plot best?
>qts
Good One! That should be the overriding factor, as long as
it doesn't get unbelievably unrealistic. Also, what are Blue
Angel's stats, she sounds interesting.
On a legal note, in real life any form of Mutant Registration
would be blatantly unconstitutional. It would be the legal
equivalent of forcing all black people to be "registered".
Of course, some evil government communazi would go
for anything that could be used to oppress the public! ^_^;
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;
"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"
- Joan of Arc's .sig
Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com
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Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 12:12:27 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: PBEM game
Cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by INTERNET:gazza@wantree.com.au
>I can't help anyone who wants a Hero PBeM at present, but if you're
not as choosy about the game itself I have two suggestions. Firstly,
try the Amber mailing list - there are lots of Amber PBeMs, and many
accept new players on occasion.<
Well, I'm interested in several genres, but have had my heart set on a
Champions PBeM for a while. I've been thinking about looking into other
genres but have been holding out for some reason.
>Secondly, I'm toying with the idea of starting an AD&D Birthright PBeM
soon; if anyone is interested in 'the old game', let me know.<
I'd be interested in this. Although I found the "kindgom rules" to be
extremely awkward the one time I tried to run it, I really like the setting
(why haven't more Greyhawk fans latched onto this? It's very similar if
you just run as an adventuring party instead of kings and leaders--I think
my face-to-face group is going to take this route, switching off between
this and Champions). I'd be interested in doing this either way,
though...maybe a PBeM will finally straighten me out as far as the "kingdom
rules" go. Anyway, I guess any more talk about this should move off the
list.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Alternative to END Reserve
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 11 May 1998 12:14:47 -0400
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Michael (Damon) or Peni R Griffin writes:
> 1. An escape pod must provide LIFE SUPPORT, but only for a limited time.
> 2. Charges of LIFE SUPPORT (as I tried them at the time) didn't work
> because the cost was much greater than the cost would have been for LIFE
> SUPPORT with no duration limit.
Well, Charges is a bad way to do it in the first place.
> 3. Applying a "Costs END" Limitation to the [normally persistent] LIFE
> SUPPORT meant I could set up an END Reserve in order to track the
> consumable resources (food, etc.) that made up the SFX of the LIFE
> SUPPORT.
This is also a bad way to model it.
Try: Life Support, limited "7 man-days", for an appropriate modifier.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds.
\
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Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 12:16:00 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: GAZZA's Analysis of the Champions List
Cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by INTERNET:gazza@wantree.com.au
>There's just one question I _HAVE_ to ask - how long has it been since
your last Great Linked Debate? :-)<
I asked the list to summarize the debate a few months back (just tell me
what the different sides were), and even that got some people mad at me.
Fortunately, a few people sent me private mail with the details.
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 00:21:11 +0800
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au>
Reply-To: gazza@wantree.com.au
Organization: Only One Inc.
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: CHAR: WC: Nur al-Allah
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> OK, I haven't read this particular Wild Cards novel. Just what does this
> guy do that can't be explained by an extremely high PRE, Oratory,
> Leadership, etc? Does he actually ever make anyone act against their
> inclinations? From the description posted with the character, it seemed
> like he was an excellent speaker and had a 'glowing green aura' that
> basically made Islamic folks believe he was some sort of holy man.
>
> To me, that says, 'Really high PRE with visible Power Effects'...
He can do more than that. He is capable, for example, of freezing
a room full of people in their tracks. (Or at least, he WAS, until
his sister interfered.) This even included other aces, such as
PuppetMan (although despite PMan's abilities, we have no real
reason to suspect that he has any particular resistance to being
compelled himself).
--
GAZZA (gazza@wantree.com.au; http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza)
"To know others is wisdom. To know oneself is enlightment."
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Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:36:18 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Quotes at top (was RE: The Ultimate Quote)
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> The more I am exposed to Micro$oft products, the more I like my Macintosh.
>
> Microsoft: Where do you want to go today?
>
> Macintosh: Where do you want to be _tomorrow_?
Unix: Do you actually want to get there?
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 00:45:07 +0800
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au>
Reply-To: gazza@wantree.com.au
Organization: Only One Inc.
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: CHAR: WC: Nur al-Allah
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Hey, another familar name.
> > When I left last time, there wasn't a lot of respect for the Ultimate
> > Mentalist. At the risk of possibly lynching myself, then, might I suggest
> > that giving the Nur Mind Control based on PRE is pretty much what
> > we're after here? (Requires a Skill Roll may or may not be an
> > appropriate limitation).
>
> Okay... any suggestions as how to model a power that affects everyone that
> can hear it? Mind Control, No Range with absurd levels of AOE: Radius?
> Limitations that one must be able to hear the speech clearly?
Yeah, tricky, I'll give you that.
I suggest one of three options:
a) Mind Control, AE Radius (use the base, or maybe double it a couple
of times), No Range, Non-Selective, Based On Pre. The 'need to hear'
is already a part of Mind Control. You could reasonably allow it to
affect a bigger or smaller radius as 'special effects' in some situations,
similar to the way you'd give extra dice for sonic attacks underwater.
b) Model it with an awesome PRE and rely on PRE attacks. I don't
really recommend this approach, though, since the Nur's power doesn't
really work by 'scaring' or 'impressing'.
c) By GM fiat, Mind Control based on PRE automatically affects all that
can hear it. This makes based on PRE somewhat of an advantage, so
care must be taken to find the right cost. This would be my preferred
approach; MOST kinds of Mind Control that are PRE related would
probably affect multiple targets (the 'mob psychology' aspect, if nothing
else). I would set it at a +2 advantage; that 'feels' about right to me.
We're clear on what Based On PRE means here, I hope: the total of
the dice is matched against the PRE of the targets, not the EGO. And
if you want to go this far, the 'hit or miss' aspect is determined by
calculating PCV (Presence Combat Value, or PRE/3). Mind Control
based on PRE is like 'super Oratory'/'super Seduction'/'super any other
PRE based skill', but it cannot convince someone to do something they
absolutely would not do. (The example in the UM is that normal Oratory
could convince a neutral voter to go for Democrat; Mind Control based
on PRE could convince a Republican to vote Democrat, but 'normal'
Mind Control would be needed to convince a Communist to vote
Democrat). Forgive me if everyone's rushed out and bought UM since
I left, but I figured that perhaps there'd be some people out there who'd
never seen the Based on PRE stuff.
Considering what the Nur was capable of, it could be argued that he
has 'real' Mind Control rather than just the Based On PRE variety;
OTOH, the NORMAL use of his power seemed to approximate the
Based on PRE stuff. Perhaps he had both, but the Based On PRE
variety was more powerful/able to affect more people.
--
GAZZA (gazza@wantree.com.au; http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza)
"To know others is wisdom. To know oneself is enlightment."
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Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 09:47:22 -0700
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Points For Perks
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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<x-rich>At 11:23 PM 5/11/1998 +0800, GAZZA wrote:
>>>>
<excerpt>Whilst skimming through the 'what would you do to yourself
with 15 points' thread (see my later post for my analysis of
current topics - if you have a sense of humour), I notice that
many people choose 'Wealth' or various other perks.
This leads into a side thread - how many of you charge points
for Perks? I charge for Bases, Vehicles, or Followers - but I've
never bothered requiring people to spend points for Contacts
or Favours, for example, or Passports and the like.
"What? You let players start with any of these???"
Well, sure, if they have an appropriate back story. It can't be
abusive unless you let it be. The alternative is almost a punishment:
<paraindent><param>left</param>* Heroes save Mayor from the Flying
Purple People Eater
* Heroes have to spend some of their hard earned experience to purchase
the Mayor as a Contact (or, at least, a Favour).
* Heroes think twice about saving the President the next time: "Sorry,
Mr Clinton, but I can't afford you as a Contact. Give my regards to
oblivion."
</paraindent>Sure, you can hand out these as 'bonus experience', but
that's
functionally equivalent to making it free, right?
</excerpt><<<<<<<<
The Rulebook does (IIRC) say something about "assigned experience
points," which are points given for a specific purpose. In the case of
saving the President's life, the PCs would get one point toward that
which would probably be taken as a Favor. Of course, they'd also get
additional points for the adventure surrounding that event which they
could use to upgrade it to a Contact, increase the Roll, etc.
Whether that's the functional equivalent of free or not is debatable.
In most ways it's quite true, but then there are always those who want
more than the base 11- Roll or who want to embellish it in some other
way.
As for a Passport, this is so easy to get that I'd almost feel bad
charging points for it. It can become a pain when foreign authorities
take it away to keep you from leaving the country during a criminal
investigation, but this really seems to me like more of a plot device
than anything else. It's not like it's a license to practice law or
something.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
</x-rich>
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Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 09:53:50 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: TK
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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At 11:30 AM 5/10/1998 -0300, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>On Wed, 6 May 1998, Goode, Jason wrote:
>
>> > Realistically, Strength is underpriced. Increase the cost of Strength to
>> > ~x2 and a lot of things stop being broken.
>
>> Elaborate.
>
>No... fairly simple, actually.:)
Um... I think he was using "elaborate" as a verb, specifically an
imperative, rather than as an adjective. :-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 12:58:00 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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<< Enough circumstantial evidence can be sufficent to allow a smudge of
legality to the warrent. >>
Uhh... nope. Not true.
Mark @ GRG
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Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 10:03:54 -0700
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Time Travel for Fun and Profit
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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At 08:48 AM 5/11/1998 -0500, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
>Shadow radio shows, even better. Hundreds of weekly Shadow radio programs
>were broadcast over 21 seasons of radio, but only about 200 of these shows
>are known to have survived to present day in any form. Some may never have
>been recorded, just broadcast live. Those that were recorded were on glass
>cylinders and wax disks, fragile media. I could get copies of these
>missing shows. Money isn't a primary issue here, since they aren't
>available at any price right now. I could try to sell copies when I
>returned with them, but I'm sure that Conde Nast, the copyright holder for
>the Shadow, would take a dim view of that. Perhaps you will suggest that
>with my billions I should buy the rights from them, or indeed buy the
>company itself?
Actually this may be a good way to get seed money for the rest of it.
If you could go back and make cassettes of these programs (which one could
do with a time machine, an average boom box, and a boxful of tapes), you
could probably sell those tapes to Conde Nast, and I rather suspect that
they'd pay a pretty good price for them.
On the other hand, you could also make a note for yourself that, once
you have your living trust, the company buys a controlling share of Conde
Nast about a year and a half before you return with the tapes, and then
pass on instructions that they should buy them from you for a generous
price with no questions asked (like how you came into possession of these
tapes).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 13:20:46 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Copywrighting characters. (!)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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<< You're creating a legally derivative work when you rewrite "Macbeth" into
French from English. >>
True, but the translation *can* be copyrighted by the author. ;)
Mark @ GRG
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From: "Andreano, Keith HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com>
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Quotes at top (was RE: The Ultimate Quote)
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 12:26:52 -0500
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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>> The more I am exposed to Micro$oft products, the more I like
my Macintosh.
>>
>> Microsoft: Where do you want to go today?
You have to wait, the release date got pushed back again!
>>
>> Macintosh: Where do you want to be _tomorrow_?
You can't get there from here!
>Unix: Do you actually want to get there?
You can't figure out how to do it!
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;
"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"
- Joan of Arc's .sig
Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com
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Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 13:45:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: CHAR: WC: Nur al-Allah
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On Tue, 12 May 1998, GAZZA wrote:
> a) Mind Control, AE Radius (use the base, or maybe double it a couple
> of times), No Range, Non-Selective, Based On Pre. The 'need to hear'
> is already a part of Mind Control. You could reasonably allow it to
> affect a bigger or smaller radius as 'special effects' in some situations,
> similar to the way you'd give extra dice for sonic attacks underwater.
Sounds best.
> We're clear on what Based On PRE means here, I hope: the total of
> the dice is matched against the PRE of the targets, not the EGO. And
> if you want to go this far, the 'hit or miss' aspect is determined by
> calculating PCV (Presence Combat Value, or PRE/3). Mind Control
> based on PRE is like 'super Oratory'/'super Seduction'/'super any other
> PRE based skill', but it cannot convince someone to do something they
> absolutely would not do. (The example in the UM is that normal Oratory
> could convince a neutral voter to go for Democrat; Mind Control based
> on PRE could convince a Republican to vote Democrat, but 'normal'
> Mind Control would be needed to convince a Communist to vote
> Democrat). Forgive me if everyone's rushed out and bought UM since
> I left, but I figured that perhaps there'd be some people out there who'd
> never seen the Based on PRE stuff.
I have UM, but didn't read all of it thouroughly. This sounds very
workable.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
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Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 15:01:09 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: CHAR: WC: Nur al-Allah
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Mon, 11 May 1998, Sakura wrote:
> OK, I haven't read this particular Wild Cards novel. Just what does this
> guy do that can't be explained by an extremely high PRE, Oratory,
> Leadership, etc? Does he actually ever make anyone act against their
> inclinations?
Yes... he mind controls the entire UN delegation in Aces Abroad, marches
them into a building, and threatens to have them shoot themselves. (Which
he admittedly doesn't actually do, but based on the description of his
power's effect there's no reason to doubt that he could.)
Also note that his power was least effective against those who had
mental powers themselves... Dr. Tachyon was unaffected, and Hartman
seemed to put up more of a fight than the rest.
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Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 15:04:23 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
To: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: CHAR: WC: Nur al-Allah
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Mon, 11 May 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> Okay... any suggestions as how to model a power that affects everyone that
> can hear it? Mind Control, No Range with absurd levels of AOE: Radius?
> Limitations that one must be able to hear the speech clearly?
Sounds reasonable.
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Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 15:07:41 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
To: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au>
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: GAZZA's Analysis of the Champions List
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Mon, 11 May 1998, GAZZA wrote:
> * "What would you do to yourself with 15 points?" - Some interesting
> suggestions here. Wealth is always good, I suppose, but I tend to
> prefer the suggestion of 20 COM and Improved Seduction roll myself.
> I'm not sure what to make of this thread; it seems like it was
> started as a parody. What I want to know is - how do I go about
> earning these experience points,
By being an RPGer. I forget who pointed it out here on the list, but
the authour of that delightful European Enemies counted "Roleplaying
Gamer" as a 15-pt Disadvantage in Mandelbrot's write-up.
> * In passing, I note that there is STILL a call for an increase in
> the price of STR (in some ways, it seems like I never left. :-) ).
> I find this particularly ironic since Fuzion equalised the cost of
> ALL the attributes...
I don't see the connection.
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Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 15:13:06 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: CHAR: WC: Nur al-Allah
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Mon, 11 May 1998, GAZZA wrote:
> When I left last time, there wasn't a lot of respect for the Ultimate
> Mentalist. At the risk of possibly lynching myself,
The idea of somebody lynching themselves makes for an interesting
mental image.:)
> then, might I suggest that giving the Nur Mind Control based on PRE is
> pretty much what we're after here?
Is "Based on PRE" the same idea as "Based on CON"? If so, it sounds pretty
silly - it's already a bug in the system that you can use PRE to defend
against Presence Attacks; allowing it to defend against certain Mental
Powers doesn't seem like a good idea.
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Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 15:18:55 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Copywrighting characters. (!)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Sun, 10 May 1998, Bryce Berggren wrote:
> >Well, then a non-trivial number of copyright lawyers, as well as federal
> >judges have flubbed on this as well: my money is on the professionals.
>
> You ever notice that in any courtroom, you've got at least one of those
> professionals on either side of any case, and they contradict each other
> ALL the time?
Not ALL the time, no. They may be in complete agreement on the law, and
only disagree with regards to the facts of the case. (In your standard
Perry Mason-style murder case, nobody is arguing what the law regarding
murder is, they're arguing whether such-and-such actually killed somebody.)
Which type of argument is actually most important in practice, I don't
know.
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From: "Robert" <baron@stlnet.com>
To: "Champs" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 13:40:57 -0500
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-----Original Message-----
From: Andreano, Keith HIM,VA <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com>
To: 'Champions' <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Monday, May 11, 1998 11:33 AM
Subject: RE: A Matter of Law
>
> >>I have a possibly sticky situation in my game.
>
> ><snip>
>
> >What advances the plot best?
> >qts
>
>Good One! That should be the overriding factor, as long as
>it doesn't get unbelievably unrealistic. Also, what are Blue
>Angel's stats, she sounds interesting.
>
>On a legal note, in real life any form of Mutant Registration
>would be blatantly unconstitutional. It would be the legal
>equivalent of forcing all black people to be "registered".
>Of course, some evil government communazi would go
>for anything that could be used to oppress the public! ^_^;
>
Not all black people are born with the ability to level mountains with a
thought or produce flames from their hands at the age of 13. Mutants are
registered because they can pose a severe public threat. Just as handguns
and explosives and drugs are regulated, so must the powers of metahumans.
Why? Because if they aren't, then it could cause a public hazard. You have a
constitutional right to bear arms. Why can't you buy a flame thrower from a
local gun shop? You have a Constitutional right to free speech, then why
can't you curse at the top of your lungs in the middle of town square or say
"I want to kill the president."? (Yes, that IS illegal, btw). You have the
freedom of religion where, theoretically, the government cannot interfere
with your religious practices. Then why cannot the Rastafari smoke marijuana
when it is a valid part of their religion? Why? Because each one of these
things present a (supposed) public threat, ergo, your rights to do these
things are suspended in certain circumstances. So much for our constitution.
I don't think its that much of a stretch to have metahumans have to register
their powers and identity with a Federal agency. Seems intelligent. It also
seems like an invasion of privacy and it would seem inteligent of a mutant
to not want to register. Thats why its a crime not to. Incentives await
those who register, sentences await those who don't. Scary, ain't it.
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Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 13:48:11 -0500
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Time Travel for Fun and Profit
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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> Actually this may be a good way to get seed money for the rest of it.
>If you could go back and make cassettes of these programs (which one could
>do with a time machine, an average boom box, and a boxful of tapes), you
>could probably sell those tapes to Conde Nast, and I rather suspect that
>they'd pay a pretty good price for them.
Perhaps; on the other hand, Conde Nast is doing almost nothing to further
the sales of licensed products, new or otherwise. I believe the most
recent Shadow comic was cancelled because Conde Nast declined to renew the
license for it; despite repeated queries from fans, including industry pros
like Will Murray, they have repeatedly declined to permit the reprint of
most of the original Shadow stories in any form (of the 325 original
titles, only about 45 were reprinted, and that history is somewhat spread
out: 23 by HBJ/Pyramid, 7 (including a duplicate of one of the HBJ books)
from Bantam, 8 from Doubleday Crime Club, 1 from Tempo, 3 (abridged) from
Grosset & Dunlap, 2 from Dover etc. I have all the available
paperback/hardcover reprints, plus 275 photocopies (and more on the way in
a few weeks), so I am within 3 titles of having the complete run.
Only a couple of boxed sets of Shadow cassettes, perhaps 16 shows
altogether, plus a "Story of the Shadow" set with interviews and four
complete shows, were ever put out. The other radio shows can be bought in
in singles or pairs from various dealers in Old Time Radio programs; a
typical OTR dealer might have a few dozen Shadow tapes available along with
Fibber McGee, Amos & Andy and so forth. I've bought what I could, and
traded with other collectors for the rest. I have just over 200 of the
radio shows, every one I've found to exist.
I've been collecting tapes of Shadow radio shows, and photocopies (or,
where they exist, book reprints) of original Shadow pulps, for something
like 15 years now. I've shopped via email, snail mail, and hunted through
bins of old magazines in shops of various types. The entire 181-title run
of the original Doc Savage stories was reprinted by Bantam over the course
of several years, but Conde Nast manifestly has no interest in giving the
Shadow the same treatment. There is, based on my experience, no reason for
me to believe the tapes would be widely available for sale once Conde Nast
bought them.
> On the other hand, you could also make a note for yourself that, once
>you have your living trust, the company buys a controlling share of Conde
>Nast about a year and a half before you return with the tapes, and then
>pass on instructions that they should buy them from you for a generous
>price with no questions asked (like how you came into possession of these
>tapes).
More of the sort of complications I'd perfer to avoid, I'm afraid. I'll
have to pass on the whole idea of the living trust, inheriting things from
myself, etc. However, given a straightforward source of income, like a big
enough lottery win, it would be tempting to buy the rights to the character
and authorize an omnibus reprint series, grouping four or five titles
together per paperback volume, as was done with the Doc Savage series
toward the end (the first 96 were released as paperback "singles"; 97-126
came out in pairs as two-in-one editions, and the remaining 55 divided up
among 13 omnibus editions). Five original novels per volume, three volumes
a year, would take 22 years to complete the series; about as much time as
the original magazine and radio show lasted.
Collecting and trading is the fun part; money is only useful as a way of
financing it, not an end in itself. Therefore the business of acquiring
the money needs to take up as little time and effort as possible.
Damon
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
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Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 17:19:03 -0400 (EDT)
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>>On a legal note, in real life any form of Mutant Registration
>>would be blatantly unconstitutional. It would be the legal
>>equivalent of forcing all black people to be "registered".
>Not all black people are born with the ability to level mountains with a
>thought or produce flames from their hands at the age of 13. Mutants are
>registered because they can pose a severe public threat. Just as handguns
>and explosives and drugs are regulated, so must the powers of metahumans.
A smart person can go, grab a bunch of chemistry books, buy a whole bunch of
_legal_ chemicals, and make lots of nasty bombs and toxic substances. By the
above argument, anyone intelligent enough to do this would have to be
registered with the government, because they pose a severe public threat -
as much or more than any twit who can shoot energy beams. Registering
paranormals wouldn't work. Why not? More trouble than it's worth! You make a
law, you make criminals. Now you've made criminals of _any_ paranormal who
doesn't register. Does this seem like a smart idea? Do you want to go around
arresting guys who can shoot laser beams or crush cars with their bare
hands? Unless the police had some _very_ powerful hardware, arresting
unregistered paranorms would be impossible - and if they did have the
equipment, the ensuing devastation would very likely be blamed on the
government!
Second, anyone could challenge the registration bill based on the existance
of Genocide alone. A _powerful_ organization known to be going around and
killing mutants. Registering alone is government mandated _suicide_. It
wouldn't take many cases of "Gosh, Bob got gunned down by Genocide only
weeks after registering..." before the law got struck down. Unless the
government offered 'protection' to registered mutants (aka Concentration
Camps, anyone?)...
Slippery slope...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"FORM BLAZIN' SHILLELAGH!"
-Vaultron Force, Gold Digger #38
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins and Ron Prins
jprins@interhop.net
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 11 May 1998 17:51:19 -0400
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John and Ron Prins writes:
> Registering paranormals wouldn't work. Why not? More trouble than it's
> worth!
That has never stopped people from asking for such laws. It has
infrequently stopped legislators from passing those laws. And such laws
are rarely repealed when it is proven.
Witness the fallout of the 18th Ammendment and the so-called "war on
drugs".
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
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Date: 11 May 1998 18:01:27 -0400
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Bryant Berggren writes:
>> You have a constitutional right to bear arms. Why can't you buy a flame
>> thrower from a local gun shop?
> Because flamethrowers aren't firearms, and wouldn't be made by or for a
> *gun* shop? Because there's not much of a civilian market for a clumsy
> weapon with little utility in hunting or self-defense situations?
The latter is about the size of it. Which is why the proscription against
fully-automatic weapons is not considered Unconstitutional, but any law
outright banning *all* firearms is.
>> You have a Constitutional right to free speech, then why can't you curse
>> at the top of your lungs in the middle of town square or say "I want to
>> kill the president."? (Yes, that IS illegal, btw).
> Because nothing forces the Powers That Be to actually enforce the laws as
> written.
More accurately, freedom of speech and freedom of the press guarantee that
the government will not suppress what you say or write. They do not
guarantee that anyone will provide you with a soap box.
Realize that by cursing at the top of your lungs in the middle of the town
square you violate the rights of the citizens, specifically their right to
"the pursuit of happiness" (a turn of phrase that was quite deliberately
worded in such vague fashion). If you refuse to respect that right, you
are the one in the wrong, not them.
And by the by, my opinion is that any law mandating the registration of
'mutants' violates "the inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the
pursuit of happiness" endowed them by "the Creator".
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Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 15:40:46 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 05:19 PM 5/11/1998 -0400, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>>>On a legal note, in real life any form of Mutant Registration
>>>would be blatantly unconstitutional. It would be the legal
>>>equivalent of forcing all black people to be "registered".
>
>>Not all black people are born with the ability to level mountains with a
>>thought or produce flames from their hands at the age of 13. Mutants are
>>registered because they can pose a severe public threat. Just as handguns
>>and explosives and drugs are regulated, so must the powers of metahumans.
>
>A smart person can go, grab a bunch of chemistry books, buy a whole bunch of
>_legal_ chemicals, and make lots of nasty bombs and toxic substances. By the
>above argument, anyone intelligent enough to do this would have to be
>registered with the government, because they pose a severe public threat -
>as much or more than any twit who can shoot energy beams. Registering
>paranormals wouldn't work. Why not? More trouble than it's worth! You make a
>law, you make criminals. Now you've made criminals of _any_ paranormal who
>doesn't register. Does this seem like a smart idea? Do you want to go around
>arresting guys who can shoot laser beams or crush cars with their bare
>hands? Unless the police had some _very_ powerful hardware, arresting
>unregistered paranorms would be impossible - and if they did have the
>equipment, the ensuing devastation would very likely be blamed on the
>government!
>
>Second, anyone could challenge the registration bill based on the existance
>of Genocide alone. A _powerful_ organization known to be going around and
>killing mutants. Registering alone is government mandated _suicide_. It
>wouldn't take many cases of "Gosh, Bob got gunned down by Genocide only
>weeks after registering..." before the law got struck down. Unless the
>government offered 'protection' to registered mutants (aka Concentration
>Camps, anyone?)...
>
>Slippery slope...
Of course, none of this necessarily follows as to whether a law would or
would not exist -- in either direction, really.
When trying to decide whether a Mutant Registration Law would pass (or
really, how any law based on a fictional premise would be treated), you
should examine not only the ramifications and legal precedents but also the
cultural attitudes in play.
On the one hand, in America we have always had some demographic
scapegoat that we have in some way treated as sub-human or at best second
class. That group could be natives, blacks, Chinese, Irish, Mexicans,
Jews, women, homosexuals, or the unborn, but they're usually an unempowered
minority and there's always some ostensibly "logical" excuse for treating
them as inferior and/or deserving of abuse. The actual abusers are most
often a minority even smaller than the scapegoat group, but are able to get
the force of law on their side. And I can't think of any reason that
mutants couldn't be simply the next group on that long and ever-growing list.
On the other hand, one aspect of today's society is the growing
sentiment that one's body is one's own domain, and nobody else can
interfere with that. The rise of "free" sexuality, drug abuse, abortion,
and assisted suicide are all symptoms of that. In light of this, along
with a fear of an environment similar to the Nazi Holocaust or McCarthyism,
it's doubtful that people would stand very long for a law like this, and if
it did pass it would be highly controversial.
If supers were to appear in a world like our own, would a registration
law like this pass? Frankly, I think it would become law, but I also think
that it would last for no more than 10 years or so, especially given the
societal attitudes I describe above.
And that's my tuppence worth.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 15:46:47 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 06:01 PM 5/11/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>More accurately, freedom of speech and freedom of the press guarantee that
>the government will not suppress what you say or write. They do not
>guarantee that anyone will provide you with a soap box.
>
>Realize that by cursing at the top of your lungs in the middle of the town
>square you violate the rights of the citizens, specifically their right to
>"the pursuit of happiness" (a turn of phrase that was quite deliberately
>worded in such vague fashion). If you refuse to respect that right, you
>are the one in the wrong, not them.
>
>And by the by, my opinion is that any law mandating the registration of
>'mutants' violates "the inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the
>pursuit of happiness" endowed them by "the Creator".
Just as a point here: the inalienable right of life, liberty, and the
pursuit of happiness are in the Declaration of Independence, which is
actually more of a declaration of principles than anything with solid legal
standing.
You *may* be confusing this with the Fifth Amendment, which states
(among other, more well-known things) that "No person shall... be deprived
of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law."
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
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Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 19:49:42 -0400
To: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net&>
hero-l@sysabend.org
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Alternative to END Reserve
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 09:19 AM 5/11/98 -0500, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
>The sequence in the development of the idea (prior to my posting it here)
>went like this:
>
>1. An escape pod must provide LIFE SUPPORT, but only for a limited time.
>2. Charges of LIFE SUPPORT (as I tried them at the time) didn't work
>because the cost was much greater than the cost would have been for LIFE
>SUPPORT with no duration limit.
>3. Applying a "Costs END" Limitation to the [normally persistent] LIFE
>SUPPORT meant I could set up an END Reserve in order to track the
>consumable resources (food, etc.) that made up the SFX of the LIFE SUPPORT.
Okay, now "Costs END" is a part of Limited Power, which allows you to limit
the power.
>4. I usually think of END Reserve as a battery, an energy storage device.
>Food, water and so on are material items, not raw energy. I wondered if a
>physical (by that I just beam solid or tangible, not biological) version of
>an END reserve could be created to serve this purpose, storing the SFX of
>the LIFE SUPPORT as consumable physical units rather than as recoverable
>energy.
>
>We were arguing LS from the beginning, you just got hung up on a couple of
>details because you thought I wanted characters to pay points for their
>weekly groceries and their 14.2 cubic foot Frigidaire home appliance. I
>never once said anything like that, and I do apologize for whatever lack of
>clarity on my part made you think I had.
No, I didn't say that. I said you wanted characters to pay points for a
"special" fridge as opposed to just putting a limitation of LS and being
done with it. I'm sorry, but no matter what campaign, genre, or setting
you are trying to design. Normal food and emergency rations should be
purchased with money, not character points. Do you have a super who buys
rope to climb up the side of a wall ***out of combat*** spend points on
clinging or do you just let them buy a grapple, some rope and scale the
wall? In general, any power which simulates something anybody could do
(buy food and put it in a cooler) is not worth character points, especially
when the "power" is going to be used in a non-combat situation. If a
4-color super buys a normal car, he doesn't have to model it as a vehicle
and spend points on it unless he is planning to use it in combat situations.
Maybe I haven't elucidated this point so well thus far. I'm sorry but
character points are not important when you are in day-to-day time. It is
more important that your characters spend time finding a way out of their
problem.
>>This is faulty thinking. The LS does not gradually fade. It cuts out
>>immediately. "We have food."/"We don't have food." "We have clean
>>air."/"The air is going stale." Now, if you would like, we can make up
>>rules for dealing with stale air. Is there something about this in Star
>>Hero? Where's the cave-in rules from Spelunking Hero when you need them?
>
>Day 1: "We have enough food for all of us for two weeks."
>Day 8: "We have enough foor for all of us for one week."
>Day 12: "We can last another week if we go on half-rations."
>Day 16: "We have to cut back to starvation level, one meal every other day."
>
>It sounds like it's gradually failing to me, even if there's no difference
>in the health of the crew over those first several days. Granted, the
>effects of failing LS will be apparent in the air and heat much more
>quickly than with food. That is, if those other systems fail, characters
>will suffer sooner from the failure of the LS.
No, it's not gradually fading. I think you are just being obstenant about
the limitation I keep telling you about. First I said:
LS food, vacuum, breathing: (-1) only 10 days protection for one person
(-1/2) only works in Life Pod.
Then I said:
"-1 only feeds one people (sic) for one week or any combination thereof."
Didn't I rule lawyer it well enough for you? How do you feel about SSR's
method:
Life Support, limited "7 man-days"
Why isn't this sufficient? I don't get it.
>I cut most of the other stuff above, but I didn't disregard it. It's
>possible that a Limitation on LS, sufficiently broadly defined, could
>accomplish the same thing that GAZZA (is that normally all caps, BTW? I've
>only seen it in the message header, where it was in all caps) suggested
>when he pointed out I could more broadly define what constituted a Charge
>of LS. I think I prefer the Charges notion, but that doesn't imply
>anything wrong with what you said here. Just personal preference.
What is the difference? If you use continuing charges, they cut out after
a certain amount of time just as suddenly (not fading) as a specially
worded limitation.
(for reference) What GAZZA said:
>You could try 'manipulating' the Charges limitation. Just call 'one use'of
Life
>Support: Does not need to eat (effectively 'emergency rations')
>'enough food for 1 person for 1 week' (tailor to taste). This is
>admittedly stretching things slightly, but it really doesn't seem that
>abusive. Under this arrangement, you'd get a -2 limitation for
>1 person-week of food, so that would cost you only 2 points.
He's saying ignore the rules under Continuing Charges so that it does not
become a +1/4 advantage (which was problem 2 above) whereas just a straight
limitation makes more sense in terms of cost.
Joe
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Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 19:00:40 -0500
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net>
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: GAZZA's Analysis of the Champions List
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
GAZZA said:
>
> * Two completely unrelated threads - one about the possible discovery
> of an illegal mutant, and another about copyrighting characters -
> are related by the detailed legal analysis both were subsequently
> subjected to. I really hope I never have a lawyer as a player - I
> suspect I'd become a landmark case for the first GM ever sued by
> one of his players...
Well, I didn't have a lawyer, but at one time in my game I had:
a player in his final year at med school
an airplane mechanic in the air force (who had served in Desert Storm)
an automobile mechanic
a computer programmer
a gun collecter
Now, imagine the hell that I went through as a GM. It seemed no matter
WHAT the situation was in the game, somebody at the table was an expert
(in real life) on the matter and wanted to know all kinds of intimate
details that I had NO clue how to answer. And I couldnt even fall back
on 'your character wouldn't know that', because they usually had the
skills appropriate to back that knowledge up.
:/
>There's just one question I _HAVE_ to ask - how long has it been since
>your last Great Linked Debate? :-)
GAZZA, I hate you. Unsubscribe yourself immediately.
Todd
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Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 21:27:15 -0500
To: hero-l@sysabend.org
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Alternative to END Reserve
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>I'm sorry, but no matter what campaign, genre, or setting
>you are trying to design. Normal food and emergency rations should be
>purchased with money, not character points. Do you have a super who buys
>rope to climb up the side of a wall ***out of combat*** spend points on
>clinging or do you just let them buy a grapple, some rope and scale the
>wall? In general, any power which simulates something anybody could do
>(buy food and put it in a cooler) is not worth character points, especially
>when the "power" is going to be used in a non-combat situation. If a
>4-color super buys a normal car, he doesn't have to model it as a vehicle
>and spend points on it unless he is planning to use it in combat situations.
Listen to yourself: IN GENERAL, any power which simulates...ESPECIALLY
WHEN [not in all cases when, or exclusively when]...UNLESS he is planning
to use it...
You admit there are legitimate exceptions to every objection you just
raised. If the super in question was going to have the rope and grapnel
for a one-shot use, he could use money to buy it; if he wanted it as part
of his standard gear, then YES I WOULD make him pay points for it as a
Power built through a Focus, and there is nothing bizarre or non-standard
about my choice to do that. My position on the food, the fridge, or
whatever is disturbing you about this is that is should all be bought with
money UNLESS it is a SFX for a Power such as Life Support. Life Support is
not an Everyman Power just because food is normally readily available; in
those situations where the availability of food is in question for a
lengthy period, you need to provide Life Support vs. eating, defined either
as "No need to eat" or "We got food". That LIfe Support must be paid for
with points, even if the special effect involves common food or a
refrigerator. The SFX adds nothing to the cost. Let it go.
>Didn't I rule lawyer it well enough for you?
Okay, now you *are* being insulting. I said I hadn't disregarded what
you'd said last time, admitted it might work as well, but said for reasons
of personal preference, no slight intended, I was leaning toward the use of
Charges. You continue to push because, perhaps, you don't feel you "win"
this thing unless I say "Gosh, Joe, you are 100% correct in every
particular; your way is my best and only solution." Forget it. Please
feel free to continue your end of this, but I'm done, and if you wish to
feel I'm just pouting, or being purposely obstinate, you go right ahead and
feel that way.
Damon
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|****************** Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs *******************|
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Damon & Peni's homepages: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3401/ |
| Children's Books -- Dolls -- X-Files -- Pulp Magazines |
| Worthy Causes -- Computer -- Atlanta -- All Human Knowledge |
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
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Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 21:27:37 -0500
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bryce Berggren <ghost@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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At 01:29 AM 5/12/98 -0500, Robert wrote:
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net>
>To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
>Date: Monday, May 11, 1998 4:51 PM
>Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
>
>
>>>>On a legal note, in real life any form of Mutant Registration
>>>>would be blatantly unconstitutional. It would be the legal
>>>>equivalent of forcing all black people to be "registered".
>>
>>>Not all black people are born with the ability to level mountains with a
>>>thought or produce flames from their hands at the age of 13. Mutants are
>>>registered because they can pose a severe public threat. Just as handguns
>>>and explosives and drugs are regulated, so must the powers of metahumans.
>>
>>A smart person can go, grab a bunch of chemistry books, buy a whole bunch
>of
>>_legal_ chemicals, and make lots of nasty bombs and toxic substances.
>
>Most chemicals that actually MAKE those explosives are carefully monitored
>and controlled.
Forgive me if this is an urban legend, but I was under the impression that
you could make napalm out of gasoline and packing peanuts, both of which
I obtained legally within the last 72 hours out of sheer coincidence. And
wasn't the whole point of the Oklahoma City bombing that they /hadn't/
"carefully monitored and controlled" that particular purchase?
>>By the
>>above argument, anyone intelligent enough to do this would have to be
>>registered with the government, because they pose a severe public threat -
>>as much or more than any twit who can shoot energy beams.
>
>Unabomber anyone? The above statement does not relate to the logic used
>previously. Chemicals and their mixtures are NOT an innate ability. Having
>the intelligence to do it is one thing, being someone who can make people
>spontaneously explode with a whim is another. Metahuman powers are a wild
>card and as such can definately present a public threat or even a threat to
>the metahuman themselves.
And I'm sure PinkMan, the Man Who Can Turn You Pink, is perfectly comfortable
with this line of reasoning--obviously, it's necessary to have his privacy
violated because some other mutant /might/ "present a public threat or even
a threat to the metahuman themselves."
Mutant/metahuman powers would be about as innately dangerous across the
board as chemicals/mixtures are an innate ability of the knowledgeable
chemist--i.e., the chances that those powers could and would be use to harm
themselves or others probably aren't much higher (if even equal to) the
chances that a person with knowledge of dangerous chemical compositions
could have the ability to get his hands on said items and the desire to
use them.
>>Registering
>>paranormals wouldn't work. Why not? More trouble than it's worth! You make
>a
>>law, you make criminals.
>
>Who here has registered for the draft? If you haven't, you are a criminal.
Somebody better tell Illinois this. They stopped requiring it the year I
went to college--something about that whole funky draft thing being repealed
on account of our already-huge National Guard and armed-forces reserves?
>Who here has driven a car without proper liscense and registration? You are
>a criminal. Why aren't THESE laws more trouble than they are worth? There is
>a percieved necessity for these laws.
OK, Selective Service was one of the earlier-mentioned breaches of
constitutional etiquette; especially in a peacetime world, it wouldn't have
survived much longer simultaneous with the ERA movement anyhow. And the latter
example gives me a choice, which isn't always a bad one: I don't HAVE to get
a driver's license, if public transportation, cycling, and/or walking fill my
needs.
But in the case of mutants, they can't decide to not be mutants. It's simply
not equivalent to owning a gun, or a car, or whatever. It's equivalent to
being black, Jewish, or near-sighted.
>>Now you've made criminals of _any_ paranormal who
>>doesn't register. Does this seem like a smart idea? Do you want to go
>around
>>arresting guys who can shoot laser beams or crush cars with their bare
>>hands?
>
>no, but politely asking them a few queestions, offering them assistance and
>incentives for registering and providing them with job assistance and
>placement.... "Gee," thinks the brick "I get stuff FOR registering and its
>a hassle if I don't.....well... I think I'll register."
Let me put it a different way. You're telling Sister Stronger-Than-You that
her ability to crush a Buick over your head and laugh off a howitzer is
too risky for the government to ignore, so they'll have to keep tabs on her.
Now, you're right--she MIGHT decide that that "stuff" you mention is worth
a little loss of privacy.
BUT ... let's face it. A chick with that much strength and toughness needs
help getting a job like King Kong Bundy needs weight-gain formula. She's
a whole job market unto herself, and they'd already be coming AFTER her--she'd
hardly have to do more than put a want ad in some newspaper: "Situation Wanted--
Can Lift 50 tons."
Most other "stuff" you could come up with are either going to seem unfair
to non-humans and cause resentment (yeah, I can just see people supporting
a mutant tax break), or you can't guarantee the government would even be able
to provide (like specialized health care--there's nothing that says the
government COULD come up with an antidote for SStY's wierd vulnerability
to argon gas--they can't even cure my hay fever).
Considering the above, unless SStY's got the education and intellect of a
six-year-old, it's a pretty good chance that the only thing you've done
is put the idea that "you're dangerous, and we can't stop you" into her
head--and give her a reason not to like you. Goooooood work. :-/
(My brother refers to this as "How to Build Marrow." Cute.)
>>Unless the police had some _very_ powerful hardware, arresting
>>unregistered paranorms would be impossible - and if they did have the
>>equipment, the ensuing devastation would very likely be blamed on the
>>government!
>
>Usually they pick their targets and stand-offs a little bit better. AMPERSAT
>is definately not the John Wayne stand-off type. They are the
>sleeping-pill-in-his-favorite-taco-bell-burritto type. They carefully
>research their targets IF pressed to take them out and they usually are
>bright enough to pit "official" metahumans against unregistered metahumans
>when possible. ("Mr. Nuetron? Yes, this is Kyle Walker from AMPERSAT. We
>have an unregistered and possibly dangerous metahuman that needs to be
>captured. We just don't have the ability to capture him without your help
>and your country would appreciate your assistance... and oh yes... those
>Mets tickets you were hunting for... I just happen to have a pair... you'll
>practically be sitting in the dug-out.... and hows your duaghter doing in
>that private school we got her enrolled in? Fine? Great to hear.") Usually,
>they are aided by other hero groups and usually they don't hunt down people.
>They're a "kinder, gentler Orwellian fascist government group".
You realize, the above situation you've just created would tick off BOTH
solid liberals (as a classic ACLU-piquing situation of violating a minority's
constitutional rights) and radical conservatives (who'll take one look at
a group of powerful mutants in the government's back pocket and start stocking
up the napalm and assault weapons for Armageddon again) ... AND it hinges
on being able to convince mutants to assault other mutants for a crime
that harms society at about the same level as a parking ticket.
>>Second, anyone could challenge the registration bill based on the existance
>>of Genocide alone. A _powerful_ organization known to be going around and
>>killing mutants. Registering alone is government mandated _suicide_. It
>>wouldn't take many cases of "Gosh, Bob got gunned down by Genocide only
>>weeks after registering..." before the law got struck down. Unless the
>>government offered 'protection' to registered mutants (aka Concentration
>>Camps, anyone?)...
>
>Registering is NOT public admittance of your powers nor is it required that
>you tell people that you are a metahuman. Your identity is held in
>confidence with this federal organization. Now, if a HACKER were to get in,
>THEN you would really need to worry. (Thats an upcoming plot thread.)
Due to the Freedom of Information Act, registering WOULD be a public
admittance.
>I'm NOT saying registering mutants is right or EVEN intelligent but I think
>it would be a political reality. People fear the unknown and chaos....
>hormonally active teens running around with the powers of Gods.... well....
>thats a bit dangerous in most people's opinions. One could argue that power
>does corrupt and young minds usually aren't mature enough to handle massive
>amounts of responsibility. People fear this power. Politicians recognize
>this (especially the right wing Republicans) and jump on the chance to ride
>the ticket in on the "Mutant Registration" ticket.
I'd go as far to say that the idea of a metahuman registration BILL would
be a political reality--it sounds good in a 20 second soundbite to people
that don't think much, kind of like flag-burning laws. But much like the
Communications Decency Act, I think suggesting such legislation would galvanize
so many different groups against it that no such law could stay on the books
long enough to put anybody in jail.
>Do I think its right? I don't think I could support it. I would be in favor
>of a bill that would count super-powers used in the commission of previous
>crimes to be thoroughly registered but not everyone who was a mutant. I
>don't think its the governments business and no harm, no foul. Right?
I think it's important to remember that any use of a super power in the
commission of a crime /would/ probably activate that whole "aggravated"
business. Beyond that, and maybe some sort of Megan's Law corollary, good
luck getting anything else passed.
>Do I think the majority of the public would be this open-minded.... well....
>the average IQ of the American citizen I was once told was about 80... about
>10 points above moron. When movies are released in the U.S., they are
>typically 10 to 20 minutes shorter than their European releases because
>Americans have a much shorter attention span. Gays are not allowed in the
>military in the U.S. Women were only recently allowed in to military
>academies run by government funding. Women aren't paid as much as men even
>in government positions. Well, the list of social injustices grow.
Taking those points in order:
a) Urban Legend.
b) American movie-goers have a short attention span? Just HOW long was Titanic,
a movie where we all knew how it was going to end?
c/d) Touche. But then again, the U.S. military isn't the U.S.--nobody's been
smart enough to strip them of their insular community.
e) Misleading context. I can trace back a USA Today article if you want the
statistics, but basically, men are only "paid more" because the people who
do the studies don't bother to factor in seniority. Keep the stats to direct-
hire comparisons, and the difference dwindles to practically nil.
Not that I disagree with the general thrust that America has a busload of
hypocrisy related to its founding ideals--there's just better examples out
there.
H. G.
He beats his fists against the posts
and still insists he sees the ghosts
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Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 22:59:58 -0400
To: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net&>
hero-l@sysabend.org
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Alternative to END Reserve
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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At 09:27 PM 5/11/98 -0500, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
>Okay, now you *are* being insulting.
Whoops, sorry. Sometimes I lose sight of "It's only a game" when I'm
discussing these trivialities. In case you care, my only last sticking
point is you call it "LS vs eating" when it's actually "LS: does not need
to eat...". In my mind, in the last message, food is not a SFX of does not
need to eat. Anyway, I'm dropping it.
And he didn't say (outside of quotes):
>"Gosh, Joe, you are 100% correct in every particular; your way is my best
and only solution."
Yes, one of my psych lims when I "get into it".
Joe
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: "Champions Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: CHAR: WC: Nur al-Allah
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 21:04:55 -0700
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> From: Trevor Barrie
>
> On Mon, 11 May 1998, GAZZA wrote:
>
> > When I left last time, there wasn't a lot of respect for the Ultimate
> > Mentalist. At the risk of possibly lynching myself,
>
> The idea of somebody lynching themselves makes for an interesting
> mental image.:)
>
Requires Duplication.:)
Filksinger
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: A Matter of Law
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 21:04:59 -0700
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> From: Stainless Steel Rat
> Sent: Monday, May 11, 1998 3:01 PM
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Bryant Berggren writes:
>
> >> You have a constitutional right to bear arms. Why can't you buy a flame
> >> thrower from a local gun shop?
>
> > Because flamethrowers aren't firearms, and wouldn't be made by or for a
> > *gun* shop? Because there's not much of a civilian market for a clumsy
> > weapon with little utility in hunting or self-defense situations?
>
> The latter is about the size of it. Which is why the proscription against
> fully-automatic weapons is not considered Unconstitutional, but any law
> outright banning *all* firearms is.
Which is odd, as the laws banning the ownership of sawed-off shotguns were ruled
constitutional on the grounds that they were useless for a "militia", which in the
constitution and federal law is officially any men of an age to fight for their country
and fit to do so.
> >> You have a Constitutional right to free speech, then why can't
> you curse
> >> at the top of your lungs in the middle of town square or say "I want to
> >> kill the president."? (Yes, that IS illegal, btw).
>
> > Because nothing forces the Powers That Be to actually enforce
> the laws as
> > written.
>
> More accurately, freedom of speech and freedom of the press guarantee that
> the government will not suppress what you say or write. They do not
> guarantee that anyone will provide you with a soap box.
>
> Realize that by cursing at the top of your lungs in the middle of the town
> square you violate the rights of the citizens, specifically their right to
> "the pursuit of happiness" (a turn of phrase that was quite deliberately
> worded in such vague fashion). If you refuse to respect that right, you
> are the one in the wrong, not them.
>
> And by the by, my opinion is that any law mandating the registration of
> 'mutants' violates "the inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the
> pursuit of happiness" endowed them by "the Creator".
>
The Constitution, at no time, grants anyone the right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit
of happiness". That is the Declaration of Independence, and has no force of legality.
Sorry.
Filksinger
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: What would you do with 15 pts?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 21:05:01 -0700
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> From: Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin>
>
> >Maybe, but I doubt it. It would take very little to go to a Swiss bank
> >and say, "I want a living trust set up in this fashion."
>
> It would, at minimum, require a passport I don't have. There goes one of
> my 15 points.
The last I checked, a passport was readily available to almost anyone in the U.S., and the
Swiss are known for the ease with which you can enter their country. Why spend points? By
this reasoning, I wouldn't be able to get a better job without spending points, by
bringing me from poor to middle class, thus spending five points.
> >If you are worried that people might somehow twig to this (unlikely,
> >as no one will be looking), then after obtaining ID, legally change
> >your name.
>
> And quit your job, perhaps avoid potential curiosity from friends and
> acquaintances by moving to a town where no one knows you...if you are
> married (I am) resolve the complications the new identity will create for
> your wife and kids, your parents, your wife's family...
I meant in the past. In the past, you appeared out of nowhere, got a birth certificate,
and, if you are worried that someone will hear your name, say, "That's the name of my dead
son!", and start stalking you, _then_ you would change your name legally.
Of course, the odds of that happening are almost as great that way, too.
> >But you would still have the time machine for everything else you
> >wanted.
>
> What you've spent all this time describing could, as someone else
> noted, be
> defined as Wealth with an SFX of time travel. In that case, you don't
> still have the time machine for anything else. I realize this isn't what
> you were going for, but again you haven't described using it for anything
> other than making a huge pile of money, and not even doing that in a
> simple, straightforward way.
That's because you can't make a _huge_ pile of money simply. Personally, I might go for
something much simpler and a lot less money, but I thought it silly to take the time and
trouble to go into the past to buy cheaper gas over and over again, when with a single
effort you could make the cost of gas irrelevant.
> >Furthermore, several of the things that you said that you
> >wanted the time machine for appeared to be ways to save money, and
> >would be pointless if you were that rich. Do you think someone with
> >billions would actually go to the trouble of using
> >time travel just to buy cheap gas?
>
> Again, a detailed breakdown seemed unnecessary, so I just listed a few
> things off the top of my head. Saving money was in many cases a nice
> bonus, but not the main point. For example, the Shadow magazines I
> mentioned. They originally sold for a dime and came out once or twice a
> month. There were 325 issues, printed on the cheap, acidic paper that was
> in common use at the time. The acid in the paper causes the magazines to
> self destruct over time. I have bought a few such magazines over the last
> few years, paying anywhere from $25 to $65 apiece for them, and they are
> very brittle and fragile, so that I have to carefully photocopy the
> original, then use the copy as a reading copy. Loose pages being
> inconvenient for this, I also have to buy binders for the copies.
>
> It would be a lot more convenient for me if I could travel back
> to a 1930's
> newsstand, buy the magazine new, and be able to use the original as the
> reading copy. It would still self-destruct eventually from the acid, but
> probably not within my lifetime, and in the meantime I get to enjoy the
> original cover art, avoid the work of copying and binding a bunch of pulp
> magazines, etc.
An excellent use of a time machine, and probably better than making yourself rich.
However, I have heard that they recently developed a method of preventing the breakdown of
acid paper, with the added bonus of increased strength. For this, you might want the
money.
>It's unlikely I'd ever sell my copies, though nothing
> prevents me from buying multiple copies at that old newsstand, to
> resell at
> a fantastic profit. But the main objective would be to get the
> magazine in
> good shape, not to grab several "mint" copies of every issue and resell
> them in the future for enough money to live on.
>
> Shadow radio shows, even better. Hundreds of weekly Shadow radio programs
> were broadcast over 21 seasons of radio, but only about 200 of these shows
> are known to have survived to present day in any form. Some may
> never have
> been recorded, just broadcast live. Those that were recorded
> were on glass
> cylinders and wax disks, fragile media. I could get copies of these
> missing shows. Money isn't a primary issue here, since they aren't
> available at any price right now. I could try to sell copies when I
> returned with them, but I'm sure that Conde Nast, the copyright holder for
> the Shadow, would take a dim view of that. Perhaps you will suggest that
> with my billions I should buy the rights from them, or indeed buy the
> company itself?
I wouldn't suggest that, as owning the company would have nothing to do with your goals.
There are times when I think that I would, if that rich, buy companies that behaved in
ways that I disapproved of, but I probably wouldn't bother, most of the time.
> >Perhaps. However, some of the uses (such as buying cheap gas) seemed
> >pointless, considering that becoming moderately wealthy with a time
> >machine is far easier than my plan, which is far easier than you seem
> >to think. Simply buying the right lottery ticket comes to mind, or
> >"selling short" on the stock market.
>
> If I were going to drive to some nearby city to attend a concert that took
> place 25 years ago, it'd be silly to gas up before making the time trip;
> travel back, buy the cheap gas, then make the drive. Again, a side
> benefit. But you're right, I shouldn't have brought it up earlier if I
> hadn't thought of it as an important consideration.
>
> You and I will just have to agree to disagree on how easy your plan is. I
> am not at all convinced that everything you described could be pulled off
> after a few trips to the library. The success of the overall plan relies
> heavily on the assumption that no one is going to be looking at any of the
> individual steps. I don't say it *can't* be done, just that I
> sure as hell
> would never attempt anything so complicated when I could just win last
> month's lottery drawing instead, under my own name, without having to set
> up international bank accounts, fake identities and trust funds
> for myself,
> etc. I had sort of wondered why you hadn't mentioned those
> simpler methods
> before.
I was going for an extreme use of time travel, rather than a quick way to riches. It
wouldn't be _difficult_, exactly, but it would be a fair amount of work and entail a small
but significant risk.
> If I had a time machine I would certainly use it at some point to
> become at
> least moderately wealthy, but so long as I have enough money that my wife
> and I don't need to work, my daughter can attend whatever college she
> wants, and I can fund my various collections to keep myself amused, what
> else do I need? No need for billions, a few million will do just fine.
> :)
I'd agree, if I didn't have a few very specific uses in mind for extreme wealth,
especially extreme wealth bound to secrecy.
> The idea of gaining lots of varied Powers via Transform is suspect, and
> certainly if any player came to me with a "Transform Rock to Time Machine"
> construct, he'd have a hell of a time convincing me that there was any
> possible rational explanation for how his character came to acquire that
> specific power. (Transform Rock to Anything would cost more, once again
> pushing us past the limits of the "what if...?" game, so I'm only
> considering the minimum-cost version here.)
I was joking, of course. Did I forget the smile? Sorry.:)
> Time travel using XDM seems to me to be the only way to go, and
> it can't be
> had for 15 points, given a -1 Limitation cap. As is often the case with
> time travel, this brings us, at the end, back to our starting point.
I didn't mean to trounce on your ideas. I just thought that the "buy cheap gas" idea was
kind of weak, and got carried away. Sorry about that.
Filksinger
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From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: What would you do with 15 pts?
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 00:39:01 -0400 (EDT)
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If you're worried about people becoming suspicious about your newly
purchased Wealth, then simply purchase a little less of it and get it with
Invisible Power Effects. Nobody will notice you're rich. :-)
Daniel Pawtowski
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From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Quotes at top (was RE: The Ultimate Quote)
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 00:47:04 -0400 (EDT)
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> >> Microsoft: Where do you want to go today?
>
> You have to wait, the release date got pushed back again!
"We are not a monopoly!"
"The economy will be in chaos if we delay shipping by a month!"
Hurm......
Daniel Pawtowski
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From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Time Travel for Fun and Profit
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 00:51:58 -0400 (EDT)
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> Perhaps; on the other hand, Conde Nast is doing almost nothing to further
> the sales of licensed products, new or otherwise. I believe the most
Hmmmm. OK, so maybe _he_ is the time traveler, who told himself
many years ago that he should not re-release anything, so that when
he arrives in 2086 with brand-new originals, he'll be rich.....
Daniel "My watch has stopped" Pawtowski
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Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 22:37:01 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: Champs <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
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Robert wrote:
>
> > [I wrote]
>
> >Moreover, felons are denied certain rights, including, in many states,
> >the right to vote, the right to bear arms, etc. They may also lawfully
> >be required to inform employers of their status, and the community may
> >lawfully be notified of their presence pursuant to law....
> Anyway, if you are a metahuman, it is not required that you specify this to
> new or prospective employers UNLESS you possess a power which may become a
> hazard
Perhaps I was unclear. I was asserting that *felons* (which would
include metahuman criminals) could be compelled to inform employers, and
so on. This was not intended to refer to registered metahumans.
> >
> >In fact, Blue Angel is guilty of murder. Under the felony murder rule,
> >any person who commits a felony is criminally responsible for any deaths
> >that occur in forseeable consequence of that felony as if those deaths
> >were intentional and malicious.
> So you are saying that, since she is a mutant, and certain groups hunt
> mutants illegally, that she is guilty of murder by arriving on the scene and
> being fired upon by a subversive group which was armed with illegal
> weaponry. <snip>
I have taken a somewhat extreme position here, but not one outside of
case law.
If drug dealer A shoots at drug dealer B, who returns fire and kills a
bystander, A is guilty of murder. An aggressive DA might also charge B
with murder on the tbeory that drug dealing is an inherently dangerous
activity. Whether this succeeds depends on the judge and jury.
If criminals C and D pull an armed robbery and get into a gunfight with
the police, and C is killed, there have been cases where D was charged
and convicted of murdering C. There have been other cases where the jury
has refused to buy it, or the judge has thrown it out -- YMMV.
If E helps F steal a car and F kills a pedestrian with it, E may be
charged with murder.
Now, faced with a catastrophe that killed thirty people and a known
threat from a paramilitary group of mutants, a U.S. Attorney might well
seek a warrant for Blue Angel on capital murder charges.
> Cool.... A new plot has just erupted.
Well, this *is* an aggressive position. How politically ambitious is the
U.S. Attorney, or the D.A. for that matter? How would such a case play
in the press: Mutant Mass Murder? Or, Poor Persecuted Paranormal?
If I gave you grist for the plot mill, I am glad.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
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Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 23:00:54 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
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GoldRushG wrote:
>
> << Enough circumstantial evidence can be sufficent to allow a smudge of
> legality to the warrent. >>
>
> Uhh... nope. Not true.
Is it your assertion that, although one can be convicted on purely
circumstantial evidence, a warrant cannot be issued without direct
evidence?
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
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From: "Robert" <baron@stlnet.com>
To: "Champs" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 01:29:11 -0500
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-----Original Message-----
From: John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Monday, May 11, 1998 4:51 PM
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
>>>On a legal note, in real life any form of Mutant Registration
>>>would be blatantly unconstitutional. It would be the legal
>>>equivalent of forcing all black people to be "registered".
>
>>Not all black people are born with the ability to level mountains with a
>>thought or produce flames from their hands at the age of 13. Mutants are
>>registered because they can pose a severe public threat. Just as handguns
>>and explosives and drugs are regulated, so must the powers of metahumans.
>
>A smart person can go, grab a bunch of chemistry books, buy a whole bunch
of
>_legal_ chemicals, and make lots of nasty bombs and toxic substances.
Most chemicals that actually MAKE those explosives are carefully monitored
and controlled.
>By the
>above argument, anyone intelligent enough to do this would have to be
>registered with the government, because they pose a severe public threat -
>as much or more than any twit who can shoot energy beams.
Unabomber anyone? The above statement does not relate to the logic used
previously. Chemicals and their mixtures are NOT an innate ability. Having
the intelligence to do it is one thing, being someone who can make people
spontaneously explode with a whim is another. Metahuman powers are a wild
card and as such can definately present a public threat or even a threat to
the metahuman themselves.
>Registering
>paranormals wouldn't work. Why not? More trouble than it's worth! You make
a
>law, you make criminals.
Who here has registered for the draft? If you haven't, you are a criminal.
Who here has driven a car without proper liscense and registration? You are
a criminal. Why aren't THESE laws more trouble than they are worth? There is
a percieved necessity for these laws.
>Now you've made criminals of _any_ paranormal who
>doesn't register. Does this seem like a smart idea? Do you want to go
around
>arresting guys who can shoot laser beams or crush cars with their bare
>hands?
no, but politely asking them a few queestions, offering them assistance and
incentives for registering and providing them with job assistance and
placement.... "Gee," thinks the brick "I get stuff FOR registering and its
a hassle if I don't.....well... I think I'll register."
>Unless the police had some _very_ powerful hardware, arresting
>unregistered paranorms would be impossible - and if they did have the
>equipment, the ensuing devastation would very likely be blamed on the
>government!
Usually they pick their targets and stand-offs a little bit better. AMPERSAT
is definately not the John Wayne stand-off type. They are the
sleeping-pill-in-his-favorite-taco-bell-burritto type. They carefully
research their targets IF pressed to take them out and they usually are
bright enough to pit "official" metahumans against unregistered metahumans
when possible. ("Mr. Nuetron? Yes, this is Kyle Walker from AMPERSAT. We
have an unregistered and possibly dangerous metahuman that needs to be
captured. We just don't have the ability to capture him without your help
and your country would appreciate your assistance... and oh yes... those
Mets tickets you were hunting for... I just happen to have a pair... you'll
practically be sitting in the dug-out.... and hows your duaghter doing in
that private school we got her enrolled in? Fine? Great to hear.") Usually,
they are aided by other hero groups and usually they don't hunt down people.
They're a "kinder, gentler Orwellian fascist government group".
>
>Second, anyone could challenge the registration bill based on the existance
>of Genocide alone. A _powerful_ organization known to be going around and
>killing mutants. Registering alone is government mandated _suicide_. It
>wouldn't take many cases of "Gosh, Bob got gunned down by Genocide only
>weeks after registering..." before the law got struck down. Unless the
>government offered 'protection' to registered mutants (aka Concentration
>Camps, anyone?)...
Registering is NOT public admittance of your powers nor is it required that
you tell people that you are a metahuman. Your identity is held in
confidence with this federal organization. Now, if a HACKER were to get in,
THEN you would really need to worry. (Thats an upcoming plot thread.)
I'm NOT saying registering mutants is right or EVEN intelligent but I think
it would be a political reality. People fear the unknown and chaos....
hormonally active teens running around with the powers of Gods.... well....
thats a bit dangerous in most people's opinions. One could argue that power
does corrupt and young minds usually aren't mature enough to handle massive
amounts of responsibility. People fear this power. Politicians recognize
this (especially the right wing Republicans) and jump on the chance to ride
the ticket in on the "Mutant Registration" ticket.
Do I think its right? I don't think I could support it. I would be in favor
of a bill that would count super-powers used in the commission of previous
crimes to be thoroughly registered but not everyone who was a mutant. I
don't think its the governments business and no harm, no foul. Right?
Do I think the majority of the public would be this open-minded.... well....
the average IQ of the American citizen I was once told was about 80... about
10 points above moron. When movies are released in the U.S., they are
typically 10 to 20 minutes shorter than their European releases because
Americans have a much shorter attention span. Gays are not allowed in the
military in the U.S. Women were only recently allowed in to military
academies run by government funding. Women aren't paid as much as men even
in government positions. Well, the list of social injustices grow.
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From: Doc Weird <DocWeird@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 03:45:28 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Reduced/Immune to aging
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After thinking about it for awhile, being the evil,point sucking GM that
I am came up with a slightly different point cost for Reduced/Immune to aging
benifits to kinda round out some difficulties that i was having making racial
packages:
Basing on roughly 100 yr. avg Human Lifespan.
1 pt = Character ages 1 year for every 5 (500 yr avg. lifespan) (1/2 Elves)
2 pt = Character ages 1 year for every 10 (1000yrs) (High Elves)
3 pt = " " 1 year for every 25 (2500) (Grey Elves)
4 pt = " " 1 year for every 50 (5000) (Dragons)
5 pt = Character is immune to all negative effects of aging.
At least, this is an idea that i came up with and thought I'd toss out to
everyone for feedback.
DocWeird---The Eternal
Newbie
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 06:14:06 -0500
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: RE: A Matter of Law
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 09:04 PM 5/11/98 -0700, Filksinger wrote:
> The Constitution, at no time, grants anyone the right to "life, liberty,
> and the pursuit of happiness". That is the Declaration of Independence,
> and has no force of legality. Sorry.
No, but it does limit its power to a specific set of purposes in the
preamble, among which is "to ensure the blessings of liberty to ourselves
[the writers] and our posterity [us]".
I've always thought American legislation would be a lot less potentially
despotic if the doctrine were established that laws can be declared
unconstitutional for violating the preamble, i.e. that Congress can only
make laws that obviously pertain to one of the purposes outlined within
/and/ did not countermand any of those purposes. Just a stray thought.
--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 06:14:08 -0500
To: "Champs" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 01:29 AM 5/12/98 -0500, Robert wrote:
>Unabomber anyone? The above statement does not relate to the logic used
>previously. Chemicals and their mixtures are NOT an innate ability. Having
>the intelligence to do it is one thing, being someone who can make people
>spontaneously explode with a whim is another. Metahuman powers are a wild
>card and as such can definately present a public threat or even a threat to
>the metahuman themselves.
They're also American citizens, and thus part of the group for whom the
government's only purpose for existing (theoretically) is to *secure* rights
for, not take away. They're part of the public you're trying to protect.
>Who here has registered for the draft? If you haven't, you are a criminal.
Not if you were born after 1974, I believe -- I seem to recall that I was in
the last generation which had to register for Selective Service.
Does anyone know, btw, if not registering with Selective Service is/was a
/felony/?
>Who here has driven a car without proper liscense and registration? You are
>a criminal.
No, you've committed a traffic violation -- I'm pretty sure this /isn't/ a
felony. By your argument, you'd be a "criminal" for getting parking tickets.
> Why aren't THESE laws more trouble than they are worth? There is
> a percieved necessity for these laws.
There's a perceived necessity for these laws, AND they aren't inherently
discriminatory (except for the draft ... but countries do really stupid
things in wartime situations). I can choose not to drive, and thus not need
a license. I can't choose not to be a metahuman.
And I think Selective Service eventually WAS considered to be more trouble
than it was worth, especially during peacetime.
>I'm NOT saying registering mutants is right or EVEN intelligent but I think
>it would be a political reality.
During WWII, definitely. ESPECIALLY during Vietnam Era. But I think it would
have gone the way of grandfather clauses, poll taxes, and Selective Service
in the 90s.
> People fear the unknown and chaos ... hormonally active teens running
> around with the powers of Gods ... well ... thats a bit dangerous in most
> people's opinions.
It'll be a lot MORE dangerous when it's /antagonized/ teens running around
with the powers of gods.
> One could argue that power does corrupt and young minds usually aren't
> mature enough to handle massive amounts of responsibility.
Obviously, power corrupts. That's how this law gets passed in the first
place. :]
> Do I think its right? I don't think I could support it. I would be in
> favor of a bill that would count super-powers used in the commission of
> previous crimes to be thoroughly registered but not everyone who was a
> mutant. I don't think its the governments business and no harm, no foul.
> Right?
This, I could see -- marking powers as part of your criminal record.
> Do I think the majority of the public would be this open-minded ...
> well ... the average IQ of the American citizen I was once told was about
> 80 ... about 10 points above moron.
I think the "average IQ" of any nation short of a despotic socialist state
is going to rank under 100 -- there are more outliers on the low end than
the high end. Brain damage, genetic disorders, neural diseases, etc. never
(well, almost never -- bad idea to state absolutes) creates geniuses, but it
will create imbeciles. Ergo, the mean IQ gets tilted to the low end. I'd
guess the median and the mode in America to both be 100, give or take the
margin of error on the tests.
Also remember that intelligence isn't anywhere near as measurable as we'd
like it to be. :/ As the old saying goes, IQ tests measure one thing: your
skill at taking IQ tests.
> When movies are released in the U.S., they are typically 10 to 20 minutes
> shorter than their European releases because Americans have a much
> shorter attention span. Gays are not allowed in the military in the U.S.
> Women were only recently allowed in to military academies run by
> government funding. Women aren't paid as much as men even in government
> positions. Well, the list of social injustices grow.
It also shrinks. We don't live in a perfect world, but we DO live in a
BETTER world, social justice wise, than (say) pre-Civil War. At the very
least, society seems to feel BAD about the injustices above, able to CALL
them injustices -- 100 years ago, they wouldn't OCCUR to most people.
One other thing to remember is that nowhere in the great contract of reality
is normal mundane humanity guaranteed a balancing factor against metahumans.
Yes, metahumans can be dangerous. And you'll find out just HOW dangerous
they can be if you start abusing or antagonizing them. In my estimation, if
metahumans are really dangerous enough to demand this kind of law, then 1
year after you pass it you'll be living in the United States of Metahumanity.
--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 06:14:16 -0500
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 11:19 PM 5/12/98 +0800, GAZZA wrote:
> I disagree completely here. Is it truly your wish to assert that innate
> abilitiesare more dangerous than 'assisted' (ie technological) abilities?
> That a beam toting metahuman is more dangerous than a psycho with a AK-47?
Actually, this is true -- the psycho can be disarmed before incarcerated.
The beam-toting metahuman can never be "disarmed", short of some kind of
power nullification technology which isn't guaranteed to exist in all
superheroic realms (it's rarer than neptunium in my own campaign).
>(An analogy - owning a gun is legal; shooting someone with it may not be).
A better analogy may be "possessing hands is legal; strangling someone may
not be".
A gun is constructed with one purpose: to injure or kill, whether it be
humans, animals, or paper targets. Buying a gun and bullets is a declaration
of willingness to use it for this purpose; for example, if you buy a gun
"for self defense", this is a statement that you are willing to put a bullet
in somebody. It's this implicit intent which makes firearms so touchy --
society doesn't fear the gun, but the person who WANTS a gun. (To put it
another way, we can correct the old saw by saying "Guns don't kill people,
gun buyers kill people").
A mutant power, even if it's "ballistic projectile generations", lacks this
intent of purpose -- the power doesn't exist because of an intent to cause
harm, it exists by accident of genetics. And most mutant powers, even if
potentially dangerous, have as many peaceful uses as combative ones. (Yes,
Flameout can use his powers as a weapon, OR he could just use them to light
the grill without matches). Essentially, unused mutant powers are even
/more/ innocent than unused firearms, because they're /unasked/ for.
This reasoning would apply to people like Spider-Man or the Hulk, too,
though some rare cases of non-mutant metahumans wouldn't fit ("So, the
defendant, known as 'Mr. Hyde', admits he created his strength-augmenting
serum for the purpose of becoming a creature of pure evil ...")
==
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 06:14:20 -0500
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 09:13 AM 5/12/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 09:27 PM 5/11/1998 -0500, Bryce Berggren wrote:
>>But in the case of mutants, they can't decide to not be mutants. It's simply
>>not equivalent to owning a gun, or a car, or whatever. It's equivalent to
>>being black, Jewish, or near-sighted.
>
> Or Native American, or Japanese -- and the rights of both of these
>groups have been "legally" abridged, as have the rights of blacks (who at
>one time had to either be registered with the government or be considered
>escaped slaves).
The key phrase is "at one time". I've got no doubt that WWII or Vietnam era
America would have produced registration acts. But you'll notice that the
abridgements of Native American, Japanese, and African-American rights don't
exist TODAY? (I'm not saying these groups aren't /discriminated/ against,
btw, I'm just saying this level of bigotry is no longer legally validated).
By the same token, I don't think an MRA would have survived in the ever more
"politically correct" 90s.
> There have been plenty of laws on the books that shoot off the very feet
>of those who have proposed them.
...
> The point is, a metahuman registration law could very well make it on
>the books, no matter how stupid it would be. Far too often, politicians
>pass laws based on their own political agendas, whether they think they can
>get reelected, or even just their base emotional feelings without
>considering all of the implications and repercussions.
Yes, but in this case, you could be playing for all the marbles. Pass
anti-mutant legislation, and you stand a better than even chance of a
mutant-backed coup d'etat. There were plenty of outright rebellion attempts
by oppressed minorities in American history (slave uprisings, et al); now,
what if one of those uprisings had been composed /entirely/ of super-powered
people?
--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 06:14:27 -0500
To: "Champs" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 11:48 AM 5/12/98 -0500, Robert wrote:
>metahumans best interest in mind. They will PRETEND to to get the job done,
>but they are there to uphold the law.... and the current law says all
>mutants must register. If you're a metahuman. you don't have to LIKE it, you
>just have to DO it or face the repercussions.
Or, you can join the revolution, and /be/ the repercussions. :]
>anyway, yes I think they can keep this a secret. How many people know what
>the interior of Deep Red looks like. How many people know what the Hell Deep
>Red IS? Anyone here know by heart the secret tunnel system below the White
>House? Can anyone even tell me how many CIA sponsored assassinations there
>were last year and who was hit? Yeah, thats what I thought. You think I'm
>over-estimating the government, I think your underestimating it. I think as
Strictly speaking, if the U.S. government could keep a secret, we wouldn't
know that there WERE any CIA sponsered assassinations, period. We wouldn't
know about MKULTRA, the Bay of Pigs, etc. There wouldn't be a need for the
doctrine of "plausible deniability", by which the President is kept ignorant
of CIA activities so that he can't be implicated, because the CIA would
never get CAUGHT, right? (nudge nudge, wink wink). As John Wayne says in
_Big Jake_: "I don't like secrets -- never known ONE to stay kept."
Eventually, it leaks somewhere down the line (Heck, you keep gloating about
a planned leak ...).
--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 06:14:31 -0500
To: "Champs" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 12:27 PM 5/12/98 -0500, Robert wrote:
>Incentives for joining AMPERSAT:
>An 800 number you can call for 24 hour assistance in case you or your family
>is attacked.
If I have these vastly dangerous mutant powers, the people attacking me are
the ones who'd need assisting. :]
>AMPERSAT testing.... knowing what your limits are and where your weaknesses
>lie is handy.
And on the other hand, it's just as handy to NOT have those limits duly
filed in government records along with my true identity.
>Containment devices...do you have a power thats hard to control sometimes?
Crapshoot. This falls in with what Bryce mentioned about being able to cure
vulnerabilities. Professor X is an expert who's devoted his whole life to
"mutantology", and he hasn't to date been able to do a damn thing to help
Rogue control her power, except maybe recommend a good tailor for those
full-body outfits.
>AMPERSAT training program.... learn what others with similar powers have
>done to better their lives
Again, crapshoot. If you're the only (known) person in the world with your
power ...
>AMPERSAT job placement...working closely with Odd Jobs and Champions East
>and West Coast, the unions and etc, etc.
This might be good, but civilian job placement services would probably be
just as effective.
>Again... AMPERSAT will only use violence as a last resort. If they HAVE too,
>they do it very quickly and with as minimal damage as possible. Most
>AMPERSAT agents will research a target, if a target has a weakness (whether
>physical, mental or social) it will be fully exploited to get the job done
>and finally, if all else fails, have someone else do the work. How many law
>abiding heroes would watch law enforcement officials go to their doom rather
>than lend a hand in subduing a confused and/or criminal metahuman.
Trick question: "law abiding" heroes would all be the registered ones, and
thus might just be a miniscule factor. The real question is, how many "law
abiding" heroes would REMAIN?
--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 06:14:36 -0500
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: RE: A Matter of Law
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 02:03 PM 5/12/98 -0500, Andreano, Keith HIM,VA wrote:
> Very true! Just look at how they are treating Israel today!
> Conservatives are portrayed by the liberals (who control most of the
> media) as being anti-freedom, as being bigots, etc, when the facts
> tend to point at things being the other way around!
The "facts of the matter" depend very highly on how you're defining
"liberal" or "conservative".
In all probability, "the media" isn't controlled by anyone but the media. If
they seem "liberal", it may be because you're overtly sensitive to what you
believe to be "liberal" views.
> Remember, the big left wing liberal societies of this century are:
> Communist Russia, Red China and Nazi Germany (NAZI = National Socialist
> Workers Party). Makes you think!
>From this, I'm guessing you're equating "liberal" with "socialist", or at
least "in favor of a meddling government". If this is the case, I think I
can explain the dilemma.
Conservatives (in the sense above) would see liberals as "anti-freedom"
because they interfere in private matters, such as meddling with free trade,
collecting higher taxes, etc. This is "proven" by the fact that liberal
views tend to be backed by communists, et al.
Liberals would see conservatives as "anti-freedom" because the conservative
"hands-off" policy would eliminate the tools they desire to protect civil
liberties. This is "proven" by the fact that conservative views tend to be
backed by extremist "militias", fundementalists Christians, etc.
It's not a matter of either view being particularly pro- or anti-freedom,
but rather that they value /different/ freedoms over others; in both cases,
the "proof" amounts to extremist cases rather than the rank and file, and
ANYTHING in extreme is bad (remember the Golden Mean).
--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 06:14:40 -0500
To: "Champions Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 11:56 AM 5/12/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> In support of this position:
> Michael Medved, a movie reviewer of some note here in the USA (not as
>big as Gene Siskel, Roger Ebert, or Leonard Maltin, but familiar to many
>nonetheless), has at times been accused of being a Nazi because of his
>conservative stance on issues and his distaste for nudity, profanity,
>extreme violence, and "anti-God" sentiments in movies, to say nothing of
>his attachment to Pat Robertson, the Christian Coalition, and similar
>individuals and groups.
> In truth, Mr. Medved is a practicing Jew.
Well, I would never have accused him of being a Nazi. I think there are
plenty of reasons to dislike him without going that far. :]
But seriously, has anyone actually accused him of being a literal Nazi (i.e.
a member of the American Nazi Party or some similiar fossil)? Or did they
just mean he was Nazi-/esque/? I wouldn't think that being Jewish magically
makes you immune to those kinds of attitudes, anymore than being an
African-American means you can't be racist (the sword does cut both ways).
And if he's attached to Pat Robertson, I'd tend to believe he's either not
that pious a Jew, or not that smart. Ol' Pat has made so many comments to
the effect that he believes extending the 1st Amendment past Christianity is
a Russo-Communist plot that they had to hire someone to do his talking for
him and shove him to a back room. :/
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 06:54:37 -0500
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: RE: What would you do with 15 pts?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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>> It would, at minimum, require a passport I don't have. There goes one of
>> my 15 points.
>
>The last I checked, a passport was readily available to almost anyone in
the U.S., and the
>Swiss are known for the ease with which you can enter their country. Why
spend points?
Passport is listed in the HSR as a 1 point Perk. Some GMs may ignore this,
I do not.
I realize it's merely a style preference, but since it's a listed Perk, I
feel I'm using the standard rule, while those who do not charge for it are
using a [legitimate] game *option*. No big deal.
Damon
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 06:11:29 -0700
To: "Champs" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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At 01:29 AM 5/12/1998 -0500, Robert wrote:
>I'm NOT saying registering mutants is right or EVEN intelligent but I think
>it would be a political reality. People fear the unknown and chaos....
>hormonally active teens running around with the powers of Gods.... well....
>thats a bit dangerous in most people's opinions. One could argue that power
>does corrupt and young minds usually aren't mature enough to handle massive
>amounts of responsibility. People fear this power. Politicians recognize
>this (especially the right wing Republicans) and jump on the chance to ride
>the ticket in on the "Mutant Registration" ticket.
I think it's kinda funny how right-wing Republicans are so typically
held up as being the folks who would so definitely support such
registration, considering that it's left-wing Democrats who are the most
vocally in favor of restricting gun ownership rights, and it was a
left-wing Democrat who put Japanese-Americans into internment camps.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 06:17:25 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Reduced/Immune to aging
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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At 03:45 AM 5/12/1998 EDT, Doc Weird wrote:
> After thinking about it for awhile, being the evil,point sucking GM
that
>I am came up with a slightly different point cost for Reduced/Immune to aging
>benifits to kinda round out some difficulties that i was having making racial
>packages:
>
>Basing on roughly 100 yr. avg Human Lifespan.
>
>1 pt = Character ages 1 year for every 5 (500 yr avg. lifespan) (1/2 Elves)
>2 pt = Character ages 1 year for every 10 (1000yrs) (High Elves)
>3 pt = " " 1 year for every 25 (2500) (Grey Elves)
>4 pt = " " 1 year for every 50 (5000) (Dragons)
>5 pt = Character is immune to all negative effects of aging.
This would be just fine, if full Life Support vs Aging wasn't 3 points
(in the current system). And I'm still sold on Total Life Support costing
30 points.
Maybe something like this would be acceptable:
1 pt = 1:5 (Half-Elves & High Elves)
2 pts = 1:25 (Grey Elves & Dragons)
3 pts = No aging (Dick Clark)
What do you think?
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 21:48:38 +0800
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au>
Reply-To: gazza@wantree.com.au
Organization: Only One Inc.
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: The Cost Of STR
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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> > * In passing, I note that there is STILL a call for an increase in
> > the price of STR (in some ways, it seems like I never left. :-) ).
> > I find this particularly ironic since Fuzion equalised the cost of
> > ALL the attributes...
>
> I don't see the connection.
Ostensibly, at least, Fuzion was supposed to be 'the new Champions'. I
waspointing out that it seemed ironic to me that while LOTS of experienced
Champions players call for an increase in the cost of STR, the actual
creators apparently decided that it wasn't a case of STR being too
cheap, but everything else being too expensive (to judge by what they
did with Fuzion).
Has 'the Fuzion connection' just been totally ignored/forgotten since I
was last here? Do Fuzion and Hero gamers no longer speak to each
other?
--
GAZZA (gazza@wantree.com.au; http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza)
"To know others is wisdom. To know oneself is enlightment."
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 21:56:13 +0800
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au>
Reply-To: gazza@wantree.com.au
Organization: Only One Inc.
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: CHAR: WC: Nur al-Allah
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> > then, might I suggest that giving the Nur Mind Control based on PRE is
> > pretty much what we're after here?
>
> Is "Based on PRE" the same idea as "Based on CON"? If so, it sounds pretty
> silly - it's already a bug in the system that you can use PRE to defend
> against Presence Attacks; allowing it to defend against certain Mental
> Powers doesn't seem like a good idea.
I'm not sure I would agree. I could see a case for merging EGO and PRE
(generally, people with high EGO tend to have high PRE, and vice
versa; you could still keep diversity when needed by purchasing limited
'EGOPRE' if you wanted one but not the other - but this is not something
I'm prepared to preach about), but I can't really see a case for saying
the ability to inspire terror is completely separated from the ability to
resist being frightened. The two tend to go hand in hand - I can think of
few fictional or real examples of great orators that were easily
intimidated.
WRT whether 'Based On PRE' Mental Powers is silly - I suspect many
on the list would agree (I believe the catch phrase for the Ultimate
Mentalist was 'what a crock', IIRC). It is most useful for simulating
such effects as 'super Seduction' or 'super Oratory' (in a similar way
that you can use Invisibility to simulate 'super Stealth' ala the Dark
Champions sourceboon). There are many who feel these effects are
unneeded; the case against is at least as strong as the case for.
Certainly you can simply buy a huge Oratory roll and hope for a GM
who will allow fantastic effects with a large penalty to the roll. And if
you DON'T have such a GM, you can just buy 'vanilla' Mind Control
and apply appropriate limitations and advantages, and have it work
against EGO as per normal.
How you choose to model these things is largely a matter of personal
taste. The UM is not 'official', in any case, to those who care about
such things.
--
GAZZA (gazza@wantree.com.au; http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza)
"To know others is wisdom. To know oneself is enlightment."
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Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
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From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 09:59:53 EDT
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>>> You have a Constitutional right to free speech, then why can't you
curse
>>> at the top of your lungs in the middle of town square or say "I want
to
>>> kill the president."? (Yes, that IS illegal, btw).
We're at the tail end of a rather bitter primary race locally, which
included a so far unidentified person distributing homemade campaign
flyers stating that voters should choose Candidate A because his main
competitor Candidate B is Jewish. (Actually, it was phrased more
strongly than that.) Are the police investigating? You bet. Is this
covered by free speech? I'm no lawyer, but as I recall free speech does
not give one the right to commit illegal acts. If discrimination based
on religious/ethnic background is illegal, then advocating discrimination
on those grounds should not be covered by the right to free speech.
To use the quoted examples, yelling _anything_ at the top of your lungs
in the middle of town square qualifies as "creating a public nuisance" or
a similar misdemeanor, and announcing that you want to kill someone
should be enough to rate an investigation as to how far your plans have
progressed.
Leah
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 22:08:53 +0800
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au>
Reply-To: gazza@wantree.com.au
Organization: Only One Inc.
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
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<x-html><HTML>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Not all black people are born with the ability to
level mountains with a
<BR>thought or produce flames from their hands at the age of 13. Mutants
are
<BR>registered because they can pose a severe public threat. Just as handguns
<BR>and explosives and drugs are regulated, so must the powers of metahumans.</BLOCKQUOTE>
I've always thought this idea was quite unrealistic. This is not to say
Ihaven't used it at times - never let realism get in the way of fun, is
my
<BR>motto - but let's consider several reasons why mutants WOULDN'T
<BR>be registered:
<UL>
<LI>
Urban myths notwithstanding, strong people/martial arts experts/etc are
not required to have their hands registered as lethal weapons. Merely possessing
the ability to cause great harm is not sufficient reason to suspect that
you will USE this ability.</LI>
<LI>
Let us suppose that these mutants are actually powerful enough to pose
a natural hazard. In the real world, as opposed to that often less interesting
place known as 'fiction', I suspect that most such mutants would be simply
drafted into the military (this is not an uncommon occurrence in the Wild
Card novels, for example). Indeed, I would think that 'signing up' would
be 'firmly encouraged'. But if they are powerful enough to pose a
threat, then they are certainly powerful enough to 'just say no' to registration
acts. If you assume that the politicians considering such a bill have the
facts available, then they would have to be quite shortsighted not to realise
that enforcing such laws would be problematic. It's really a catch-22 situation
- if you have the ability to force mutants to register, then they aren't
enough of a threat to require them to register. If you can't force them
to register, then TRYING to do so will create precisely the public threat
that you are attempting to prevent.</LI>
</UL>
Note that this is all argued from a purely scientific viewpoint. Clearly,
it's
<BR>not particularly democratic or constitutional to discriminate against
<BR>people in such a fashion either, but even without such considerations
it
<BR>is STILL not a wise idea.
<P>My suggestion, should such an occurrence ever arise? Beg, cajole,
<BR>blackmail or bribe as many as possible to work in the military. Offer
<BR>the hold outs jobs as secondary law enforcement. And sit back and
<BR>watch some of the others use their new found abilities to commit
<BR>crimes.
<P>Sounds like the idea of superheroes and supervillains may not be
<BR>too far-fetched after all. ;-)
<BR>--
<BR>GAZZA (gazza@wantree.com.au; <A HREF="http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza">http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza</A>)
<BR>"To know others is wisdom. To know oneself is enlightment."
<BR> </HTML>
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
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From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 10:11:04 EDT
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>>Most chemicals that actually MAKE those explosives are carefully
monitored
>>and controlled.
>
>Forgive me if this is an urban legend, but I was under the impression
that
>you could make napalm out of gasoline and packing peanuts, both of which
>I obtained legally within the last 72 hours out of sheer coincidence.
I don't know if it's true napalm or just a napalm-analogue, but my
college chemistry professor made some with gasoline and a busted
styrofoam cooler (the really cheap kind) as a class demo, so it _does_
work.
Leah
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 22:17:21 +0800
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au>
Reply-To: gazza@wantree.com.au
Organization: Only One Inc.
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
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> Just as a point here: the inalienable right of life, liberty, and the
> pursuit of happiness are in the Declaration of Independence, which is
> actually more of a declaration of principles than anything with solid legal
> standing.
> You *may* be confusing this with the Fifth Amendment, which states
> (among other, more well-known things) that "No person shall... be deprived
> of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law."
(GAZZA's ASIDE: You Americans take your laws a lot more seriouslythan we do
DownUnder. I've never heard any Aussie use the phrase
'it's unconstitutional').
You raise an interesting point, Bob, but there is still an escape here.
Essentially, you just gather enough 'evidence' to 'prove' that mutants
are not 'people' - and thus not entitled to protection under the
constitution or any of its amendments.
Realistically, and scientifically, you can powerfully argue that the
ability to lift cars and fire laser beams from your eyes has mutated
you far enough away from Homo Sapiens Sapiens to no longer
count as 'human'. Even dolphins - widely regarded (accurately or
not) as at least equal to humanity in terms of intelligence - are not
accorded any rights whatsoever. You might be fined for shooting
dolphins, but you haven't legally murdered anyone.
Of course, this type of argument is exactly the sort of bigotry and
racism that the Nazi party popularised a few decades ago. The
allusion is quite deliberate; it is difficult to imagine that such
'registration acts' would not be viewed with the same contempt
that the Nazi's racial purity ideas are now - at least in retrospect.
--
GAZZA (gazza@wantree.com.au; http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza)
"To know others is wisdom. To know oneself is enlightment."
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 10:52:24 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: The Cost Of STR
Cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by INTERNET:gazza@wantree.com.au
>Has 'the Fuzion connection' just been totally ignored/forgotten since I
was last here? Do Fuzion and Hero gamers no longer speak to each
other?<
Fuzion has its own mailing list, and they have fairly distinct contributor
lists, although I see some people from the Hero list over on the Fuzion
list. Fuzion rarely gets mentioned on this list, and vice versa, but I
don't usually see attacks between the two groups. I recently posted a
message on the Fuzion list which I think was viewed as an attack on that
system, although that wasn't the intention.
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 10:07:16 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: Leah L Watts <llwatts@juno.com>
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
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On Tue, 12 May 1998, Leah L Watts wrote:
> >>Most chemicals that actually MAKE those explosives are carefully
> monitored
> >>and controlled.
> >
> >Forgive me if this is an urban legend, but I was under the impression
> that
> >you could make napalm out of gasoline and packing peanuts, both of which
> >I obtained legally within the last 72 hours out of sheer coincidence.
>
> I don't know if it's true napalm or just a napalm-analogue, but my
> college chemistry professor made some with gasoline and a busted
> styrofoam cooler (the really cheap kind) as a class demo, so it _does_
> work.
You can also do it with gasoline and soap shavings.
The basic idea of napalm is not to explode, but to cover things, stick to
them, and burn them horribly. Gasoline with soap shavings and gasoline
with styrofoam both do this nicely - I'm not sure they're chemically
equivalent to 'real' napalm, and they mey not be quite as effecient at
stickign and burning...but they're still pretty scary.
Kids, don't try this at home...
J
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 11:15:10 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: END: Running out of it
Cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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In my experience, it's fairly uncommon for a fight to go on so long that
the heroes are in danger of running out of Endurance. Is it the same for
your games, or are my players buying too much Endurance to begin with?
They normally have 40-50 END. The only time I think my players have been
low on END is when they push their attacks several phases in a row, or if
they happen to have some power which costs lots of extra END to use.
In a related question, I usually don't keep track of END for my villains,
'cause I have enough to worry about. Do you think this is a mistake on my
part?
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 23:19:58 +0800
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au>
Reply-To: gazza@wantree.com.au
Organization: Only One Inc.
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
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> >A smart person can go, grab a bunch of chemistry books, buy a whole >bunch of
> _legal_ chemicals, and make lots of nasty bombs and toxic >substances.
>
> Most chemicals that actually MAKE those explosives are carefully monitored
> and controlled.
This is just simply incorrect. A crude bomb can be constructed with nothingmore
than a flask of whiskey and a soaked rag - and I'm sure I'm not the
only person who knows this. Would it blow up a building? No, of course
not, but it's still capable of causing great injury.
I'm sure many people can come up with far more dangerous examples
than this. There have been documented cases of people fooling around
with homemade bombs they apparently learned to make from the
Internet (of course, considering the results of this fooling around, the
people in question are mostly Darwin Award wannabes).
> >By the
> >above argument, anyone intelligent enough to do this would have to be
> >registered with the government, because they pose a severe public threat -
> >as much or more than any twit who can shoot energy beams.
>
> Unabomber anyone? The above statement does not relate to the logic used
> previously. Chemicals and their mixtures are NOT an innate ability. Having
> the intelligence to do it is one thing, being someone who can make people
> spontaneously explode with a whim is another. Metahuman powers are a wild card
> and as such can definately present a public threat or even a threat to the
> metahuman themselves.
I disagree completely here. Is it truly your wish to assert that innate
abilitiesare more dangerous than 'assisted' (ie technological) abilities? That a
beam toting metahuman is more dangerous than a psycho with a AK-47?
How, incidentally, are we to KNOW that someone has the ability to make
someone spontaneously explode? I can think of only one way - ie, that
he HAS made someone explode. I'd certainly be in favour of charging
him as appropriate in such a case, but the mere ABILITY is not at fault -
the use of it is.
(An analogy - owning a gun is legal; shooting someone with it may not be).
> >Registering paranormals wouldn't work. Why not? More trouble than it's
> >worth! You make a law, you make criminals.
>
> Who here has registered for the draft? If you haven't, you are a criminal.
> Who here has driven a car without proper liscense and registration? You are
> a criminal. Why aren't THESE laws more trouble than they are worth? There is a
> percieved necessity for these laws.
Ah... you seem to be implying that most Americans DON'T register for thedraft,
and many HAVE driven without license and registration. If that is the
case, then (arguably) these laws ARE more trouble than they are worth.
(Is the latter - driving without a license - really true, BTW? That is a
pretty major misdemeanour in Oz - the sort of thing you can go to
prison for, if you get a judge on a bad day).
> >Now you've made criminals of _any_ paranormal who
> >doesn't register. Does this seem like a smart idea? Do you want to go
> >around arresting guys who can shoot laser beams or crush cars with their
> >bare hands?
>
> no, but politely asking them a few queestions, offering them assistance and
> incentives for registering and providing them with job assistance and
> placement.... "Gee," thinks the brick "I get stuff FOR registering and its
> a hassle if I don't.....well... I think I'll register."
So you're suggesting a 'paranormal assistance act', rather than aregistration
act? Not a bad idea - but this is not the same thing.
An analogy - in Oz (at least) people are encouraged to volunteer for
organ donorship in the event of death. You get 'hassled' (by doctors,
by peers, and so forth) if you don't. And (at the very least) a warm
smile if you do. But it's still your choice; it's not ILLEGAL to not
volunteer.
(The analogy is a little strained above; I admit it. I'm sure there are
better examples).
> Registering is NOT public admittance of your powers nor is it required that
> you tell people that you are a metahuman. Your identity is held in
> confidence with this federal organization. Now, if a HACKER were to get in,
> THEN you would really need to worry. (Thats an upcoming plot thread.)
I find it unbelievable that several paranormals would not consider
thispossibility. It is especially dangerous if there exist Telepaths or
Cyberkinetics in your world - then, no matter how secret the information
is to mundane espionage, all Genocide need is a couple of tame
muties to find and slaughter all the rest.
> I'm NOT saying registering mutants is right or EVEN intelligent but I think
> it would be a political reality. People fear the unknown and chaos....
That would depend, of course. If people's first exposure to metahumanitywas Dr
Destroyer charbroiling the President, I'm inclined to acknowledge
that (at least until 'cooler heads prevailed') there could well be some
rather draconian laws passed. On the other hand, if the first exposure
was MonkeyMan swinging from tree to tree saving little old ladies cats,
I doubt that too many people would be calling for registration to protect
them from MM's awesome strength.
The media could be used as a powerful weapon for or against mutants.
--
GAZZA (gazza@wantree.com.au; http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza)
"To know others is wisdom. To know oneself is enlightment."
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 08:21:05 -0700
To: Doc Weird <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Reduced/Immune to aging
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> After thinking about it for awhile, being the evil,point sucking GM that
>I am came up with a slightly different point cost for Reduced/Immune to aging
>benifits to kinda round out some difficulties that i was having making racial
>packages:
>
>Basing on roughly 100 yr. avg Human Lifespan.
>
>1 pt = Character ages 1 year for every 5 (500 yr avg. lifespan) (1/2 Elves)
>2 pt = Character ages 1 year for every 10 (1000yrs) (High Elves)
>3 pt = " " 1 year for every 25 (2500) (Grey Elves)
>4 pt = " " 1 year for every 50 (5000) (Dragons)
>5 pt = Character is immune to all negative effects of aging.
Ive used something similar to that (without the AD&D terms) for my Fantasy
Hero game for quite a while, seems to work fairly well... and a disadvantage
system with a similar structure (short lifespan being worth 1 point)
----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
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From: "Andreano, Keith HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com>
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: A Matter of Law
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 10:43:05 -0500
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>(GAZZA's ASIDE: You Americans take your laws a lot more
seriouslythan we do
>DownUnder. I've never heard any Aussie use the phrase
>'it's unconstitutional').
Then your lucky if you don't have a government that's constantly
looking for ways to curtail personal freedoms. The Democratic
party in the U.S. is starting to get a scary similarity to ones in
communist countries. "Do what we say or else!" should be
their new motto! This, of course, is good game source stuff! ^_^;
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;
"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"
- Joan of Arc's .sig
Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 08:53:38 -0700
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
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At 10:17 PM 5/12/1998 +0800, GAZZA wrote:
>(GAZZA's ASIDE: You Americans take your laws a lot more seriouslythan we do
>DownUnder. I've never heard any Aussie use the phrase
>'it's unconstitutional').
I don't think you'll hear that phrase, or probably even that word, being
used by anyone other than an American. I've even heard stories of
Americans abroad who tried getting out of jams with foreign governments by
pressing their "Constitutional" rights, which "mysteriously" vanished as
soon as they left the country.
>You raise an interesting point, Bob, but there is still an escape here.
>Essentially, you just gather enough 'evidence' to 'prove' that mutants
>are not 'people' - and thus not entitled to protection under the
>constitution or any of its amendments.
This, of course, was one of the points of an earlier post of mine. We
have always had some sort of social scapegoats who were/are "obviously" not
people (or, at least, not *as much* people) as the rest, who everyone had
the right to beat on.
>Of course, this type of argument is exactly the sort of bigotry and
>racism that the Nazi party popularised a few decades ago. The
>allusion is quite deliberate; it is difficult to imagine that such
>'registration acts' would not be viewed with the same contempt
>that the Nazi's racial purity ideas are now - at least in retrospect.
And this was the "other side of the coin" in the same post (to which I
allude above). We have a "my body is my private domain" mentality that has
never existed in Western culture before, or at least not in a *very* long
time. No matter what the outcome of such a law, it's sure to stir up
controversy.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 09:02:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: The Cost Of STR
To: gazza@wantree.com.au
Cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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GAZZA writes:
> Ostensibly, at least, Fuzion was supposed to be 'the new Champions'. I
> waspointing out that it seemed ironic to me that while LOTS of experienced
> Champions players call for an increase in the cost of STR, the actual
> creators apparently decided that it wasn't a case of STR being too
> cheap, but everything else being too expensive (to judge by what they
> did with Fuzion).
Actually, Fuzion did fix strength, though in a different way -- they just
removed most figured stats from it. In HERO, +5 STR gives x2 lifting, +1d6
HTH, +1 PD, +1 REC, +2.5 STUN, +1" superleap. In Fuzion, +1 Strength gives
either x1.4 or x2 lifting, +1d6 HTH, and +1 REC. If HERO strength didn't give
figured stats, I don't think anyone would have a problem with its cost.
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Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: PBEM game
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 02:04:40 +1000
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> Somebody else said it already, but basically the only way to get into a
> game is to start one yourself. This totally defeats the purpose I had
> behind joining a PBeM. I'm *always* the GM in our face-to-face group, so
I
> was hoping a PBeM would give me a chance to be a player instead. No such
> luck....
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Labyrinth/3306/Pbem.htm
come on, it's not that wierd! *yeesh*
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From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
Cc: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Quotes at top (was RE: The Ultimate Quote)
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 02:08:38 +1000
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----------
> From: Tim R. Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
> To:
> Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: Re: Quotes at top (was RE: The Ultimate Quote)
> Date: Tuesday, May 12, 1998 2:36 AM
>
>
> > The more I am exposed to Micro$oft products, the more I like my
Macintosh.
> >
> > Microsoft: Where do you want to go today?
> >
> > Macintosh: Where do you want to be _tomorrow_?
>
> Unix: Do you actually want to get there?
>
>
os2: why not go here instead?
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 09:13:59 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
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At 09:27 PM 5/11/1998 -0500, Bryce Berggren wrote:
>But in the case of mutants, they can't decide to not be mutants. It's simply
>not equivalent to owning a gun, or a car, or whatever. It's equivalent to
>being black, Jewish, or near-sighted.
Or Native American, or Japanese -- and the rights of both of these
groups have been "legally" abridged, as have the rights of blacks (who at
one time had to either be registered with the government or be considered
escaped slaves).
>Considering the above, unless SStY's got the education and intellect of a
>six-year-old, it's a pretty good chance that the only thing you've done
>is put the idea that "you're dangerous, and we can't stop you" into her
>head--and give her a reason not to like you. Goooooood work. :-/
>
>(My brother refers to this as "How to Build Marrow." Cute.)
There have been plenty of laws on the books that shoot off the very feet
of those who have proposed them.
I'll give you a local example. Up until a couple of years ago, the
State of Oregon paid 6% of any State employee's salary into his or her
retirement fund; this was the result of a trade-off with the union back in
the 1970s that saved the state millions of dollars (this replaced the
salary increase that was being asked for at the time; for two years
salaries were frozen). Now, just a few years ago, the voters decided that
it wasn't fair that the State paid for its employees' retirement, and
passed an initiative law that required the employees to pay that 6%
themselves (in spite of the fact that nobody else is required to pay into a
retirement fund other than Social Security, and no law forbids any private
employer from paying its employees' retirement) and forbade the State from
providing any replacement salaries.
This law has since been declared unconstitutional on several grounds,
but that was after multiple long court battles. It has raised resentment
among many workers in the State against an electorate who would simply pass
a special law to take away something that their union fought hard to win
for them (and took as a concession to soften the blow of a two-year salary
freeze at that). It led a good number of older State workers to retire
early, and other highly qualified applicants to avoid the State rolls. In
essence, the voters passed this law despite its being highly ill-advised,
and are now paying the consequences.
(Interestingly, one of the most public champions for this initiative
measure is now running for Governor.)
The point is, a metahuman registration law could very well make it on
the books, no matter how stupid it would be. Far too often, politicians
pass laws based on their own political agendas, whether they think they can
get reelected, or even just their base emotional feelings without
considering all of the implications and repercussions.
>>Registering is NOT public admittance of your powers nor is it required that
>>you tell people that you are a metahuman. Your identity is held in
>>confidence with this federal organization. Now, if a HACKER were to get in,
>>THEN you would really need to worry. (Thats an upcoming plot thread.)
>
>Due to the Freedom of Information Act, registering WOULD be a public
>admittance.
Not all government-held information is public. Just try finding out a
list of people who have applied for government assistance to treat their
AIDS, or a list of women who have been subjected to government-provided
abortions.
>I'd go as far to say that the idea of a metahuman registration BILL would
>be a political reality--it sounds good in a 20 second soundbite to people
>that don't think much, kind of like flag-burning laws. But much like the
>Communications Decency Act, I think suggesting such legislation would
galvanize
>so many different groups against it that no such law could stay on the books
>long enough to put anybody in jail.
On that, I *almost* agree. A few folks would probably end up in jail
(or prison), only to be freed (well, most of them anyway) when the law was
found unconstitutional.
>I think it's important to remember that any use of a super power in the
>commission of a crime /would/ probably activate that whole "aggravated"
>business. Beyond that, and maybe some sort of Megan's Law corollary, good
>luck getting anything else passed.
I'm drawing a blank on what Megan's Law is.
>Not that I disagree with the general thrust that America has a busload of
>hypocrisy related to its founding ideals--there's just better examples out
>there.
I gave what I considered a pretty good list a little while back,
starting with slavery and land-grabbing and ending with gay-bashing and
abortion.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 12:34:35 EDT
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Re: PBEM game
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In a message dated 5/11/98 7:57:26 PM, beren@unforgettable.com wrote:
>> Can anyone direct me on a way to find a PBeM game (preferrably
>Champions or Fantasy Hero) that is currently looking for people? I'm new to
>PBeM, and so far all of my searching has led to interresting accounts of
>closed
>games..<
We're in the process of moving the Hero Games web site (www.herogames.com) to
be hosted by the fine folks at WebRPG (www.webrpg.com). Once we're there,
we'll have Hero message boards where you can post notes about upcoming games.
More important, we'll be taking advantage of WebRPG's online roleplaying set-
up, so you'll be able to play Hero games on-line. Watch for more details
soon...
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 09:37:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: END: Running out of it
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---David Stallard wrote:
>
> In my experience, it's fairly uncommon for a fight to go on so long
that
> the heroes are in danger of running out of Endurance. Is it the
same for
> your games, or are my players buying too much Endurance to begin
with?
> They normally have 40-50 END. The only time I think my players have
been
> low on END is when they push their attacks several phases in a row,
or if
> they happen to have some power which costs lots of extra END to use.
Most of the characters I build have an END/REC combo that allows for
about 3 turns of full-out power usage. If the combat lasts longer
than expected or if I push anything then I could have a problem (in
actual game play though I rarely am doing a full burn EVERY phase, so
they can usually last a little longer).
> In a related question, I usually don't keep track of END for my
villains,
> 'cause I have enough to worry about. Do you think this is a mistake
on my
> part?
I typically take a quick look at their REC vs the exptected END burn
per turn and use that as a guideline for when the villians should try
to run away, ignoring that actual END accounting itself.
==
John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org>
============================================
Got a question about the list? Just ask. Or, you can go
look over at www.sysabend.org/champions. I've been
slowly posting information about the list there.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
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From: "Robert" <baron@stlnet.com>
To: "Champs" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 11:48:53 -0500
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-----Original Message-----
From: John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net>
To: Robert <baron@stlnet.com>
Date: Tuesday, May 12, 1998 6:58 AM
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
>>>A smart person can go, grab a bunch of chemistry books, buy a whole bunch
>>>of
>>>_legal_ chemicals, and make lots of nasty bombs and toxic substances.
>>
>>Most chemicals that actually MAKE those explosives are carefully monitored
>>and controlled.
>
>Like fun they are! You'd be amazed at what you can make with kitchen
>chemistry; let alone bathtub chemistry...
>
True, but you have to fill out forms to get fertilizer and large amounts of
ammonia now. So LARGE explosions can be more easily traced. Smaller are
harder to trace. I agree with you on this point. However, what if there were
a new way to make things explode that only certain people could do that
would leave no chemical trace to track someone down. You have to admit, the
concept is scary.... and scared people vote.... and not always for the
things that seem the most fair.
>>Unabomber anyone? The above statement does not relate to the logic used
>>previously. Chemicals and their mixtures are NOT an innate ability. Having
>>the intelligence to do it is one thing, being someone who can make people
>>spontaneously explode with a whim is another. Metahuman powers are a wild
>>card and as such can definately present a public threat or even a threat
to
>>the metahuman themselves.
>
>Bah.
Bah? .....did he just say "Bah"? ....cool.
>Having the ability to do something and actually doing something are two
>_entirely_ different things; this is a basis of law!
Thats not true. HAVING fully automatic weapons is a crime, yet you've not
committed any crime except for having the firearm. The perception is that
the weapon cannot be used except for uses which are criminal in nature, ergo
it is illegal to have them unless properly registered. I may HAVE a fully
automatic weapon and have never used it on anyone or anything but I am STILL
a criminal by the letter of the law. Now, I will agree that a weapon is
property and not an innate ability and you actually have a choice as to
whether you purchase the weapon so you are then choosing to break the law or
not BUT if a mutant (in my game) does not willfully choose to register
himself then he or she is making a choice as well. Having the power is not
against the law....not REGISTERING it IS.
> If a person is in
>stable mental condition, and has control of his powers, there is _no_
reason
>to punish them for having said powers. Only once they use their powers to
>break the law does it become a problem.
I happen to agree with you.... but I think it would still be a political
reality. I don't have to LIKE the law to obey it.
>>
>>>Registering
>>>paranormals wouldn't work. Why not? More trouble than it's worth! You
make
>>>a law, you make criminals.
>>
>>Who here has registered for the draft? If you haven't, you are a criminal.
>>Who here has driven a car without proper liscense and registration? You
are
>>a criminal. Why aren't THESE laws more trouble than they are worth? There
is
>>a percieved necessity for these laws.
>
>Maybe, but registering for the draft or driving a car does not subject you
>to prejudice nor actual physical threat. If Genocide is known to be around,
>people will not want to register, for their own safety.
>
You act as if when you register it would then be public knowledge. If
anything, you are given extra help to avoid such groups and an AMPERSAT team
WILL respond to defend metahumans from said nasty groups if necessary and
EVEN help relocate the metahuman if necessary as part of a federal
relocation program.
>>no, but politely asking them a few queestions, offering them assistance
and
>>incentives for registering and providing them with job assistance and
>>placement.... "Gee," thinks the brick "I get stuff FOR registering and
its
>>a hassle if I don't.....well... I think I'll register."
>
>Again, you're ignoring Genocide and public prejudice. No intelligent
>paranormal would want to register because their quality of living would go
>down.
Could you PLEASE explain why the level of living would go down WHEN
REGISTRATION IS NOT PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE! PLEASE read the posts more carefully,
I've stated this a few times before.
>I'd rather worry about being caught by the government for having
>powers than worrying about Genocide showing up and killing me (and probably
>my family) - or having to face cries of 'mutie! freak!' each and every day
>(which will happen in a society that forces paranorms to register).
>
See above *sigh*
>>>Unless the police had some _very_ powerful hardware, arresting
>>>unregistered paranorms would be impossible - and if they did have the
>>>equipment, the ensuing devastation would very likely be blamed on the
>>>government!
>>
>>Usually they pick their targets and stand-offs a little bit better.
AMPERSAT
>>is definately not the John Wayne stand-off type. They are the
>>sleeping-pill-in-his-favorite-taco-bell-burritto type. They carefully
>>research their targets IF pressed to take them out and they usually are
>>bright enough to pit "official" metahumans against unregistered metahumans
>>when possible.
>
>Oh, great, licensed superheroic slugfests. Still more collateral damage.
You
>get the (bad) situations of:
>
>A.) Mr. Gov't is more powerful than mutant, and kills him accidentally
>B.) Mr. Gov't is as powerful as mutant, big slugfest ensues.
>C.) Mr. Gov't is weaker than mutant, gets his ass kicked around, mutant
goes
>on rampage.
>
>The main problem being that unless an unregistered mutant can be _very_
>thoroughly researched, his/her power level is completely unquantified.
>
Which is why they are SO very cautious and pick their fights. I thought I
went over this. They wouldn't jump someone in a crowded mall. They would do
a LOT of surveillance and carefully catalog all they have seen. Most likely
they wouldn't try to take the person down as much as quietly approach them
and ask them to register. Not registering right then and there wouldn't mean
a slugfest right then and there. It would probably mean having a visit from
another metahuman who would try to talk with you reasonably and who would
also explain the perks. AMPERAT is NOT stupid. "Hey, gee. This guy has
enough strength to rip my arms off like wings off a fly. I think I'll piss
him off." If someone actually wants to face federal charges for not
registering and actually face the veiled threat of BEING outed by AMPERSAT
(yes, they put out a Federal warrant for your arrest and will distribute
that warrant) , they can say no. The negatives they threaten are RARELY
physical in nature but mental and societal. Now, have they made someone snap
before and actually turn criminal rather than register... well... yeah. I
never said they were perfect nor at any time did I say they had the
metahumans best interest in mind. They will PRETEND to to get the job done,
but they are there to uphold the law.... and the current law says all
mutants must register. If you're a metahuman. you don't have to LIKE it, you
just have to DO it or face the repercussions.
>>Registering is NOT public admittance of your powers nor is it required
that
>>you tell people that you are a metahuman. Your identity is held in
>>confidence with this federal organization. Now, if a HACKER were to get
in,
>>THEN you would really need to worry. (Thats an upcoming plot thread.)
>
>Bah, that's assumed! You actually think a _government_ could keep such a
>list safe? They can't even balance budgets!
You're preaching to the choir, reverend. As a matter of fact, a plot thread
is getting ready to start where someone actually manages to hack into the
AMPERSAT network and will be holding a lot of secret identities hostage. But
anyway, yes I think they can keep this a secret. How many people know what
the interior of Deep Red looks like. How many people know what the Hell Deep
Red IS? Anyone here know by heart the secret tunnel system below the White
House? Can anyone even tell me how many CIA sponsored assassinations there
were last year and who was hit? Yeah, thats what I thought. You think I'm
over-estimating the government, I think your underestimating it. I think as
soon as it behooves the politicians to balance the budget, it will get done.
In the mean time, its nice window dressing to keep the masses worried.
Military secrets are hard to come by.
>Also, I'd bet Genocide had a
>hand in the bill, and its enforcement and records.
>
Hey, gee. I think with that LAST statement you are starting to see the
light. .... think about it.
>>Do I think its right? I don't think I could support it. I would be in
favor
>>of a bill that would count super-powers used in the commission of previous
>>crimes to be thoroughly registered but not everyone who was a mutant. I
>>don't think its the governments business and no harm, no foul. Right?
>
>That's reasonable, as they _have_ committed a crime.
>
When have you known the judicial system to be entirely "reasonable"? Nuff
said.
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From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: "Champions Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 02:56:00 +1000
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----------
> From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au>
> To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
> Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
> Date: Wednesday, May 13, 1998 12:17 AM
>
> > Just as a point here: the inalienable right of life, liberty, and
the
> > pursuit of happiness are in the Declaration of Independence, which is
> > actually more of a declaration of principles than anything with solid
legal
> > standing.
> > You *may* be confusing this with the Fifth Amendment, which states
> > (among other, more well-known things) that "No person shall... be
deprived
> > of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law."
>
> (GAZZA's ASIDE: You Americans take your laws a lot more seriouslythan we
do
> DownUnder. I've never heard any Aussie use the phrase
> 'it's unconstitutional').
>
.......we have a constitution now? oh that's right, it's the bill of
rights we don't have.. . .or something.
> Realistically, and scientifically, you can powerfully argue that the
> ability to lift cars and fire laser beams from your eyes has mutated
> you far enough away from Homo Sapiens Sapiens to no longer
> count as 'human'. Even dolphins - widely regarded (accurately or
> not) as at least equal to humanity in terms of intelligence - are not
> accorded any rights whatsoever. You might be fined for shooting
> dolphins, but you haven't legally murdered anyone.
>
Yes but dolphins weren't born to human parents, and dolphins
can't breed with humans. You could argue it, but not nearly
conclusivly enough to prevent the debate from bogging down
in ideological subjectivism. Which is frankly where it SHOULD be.
> Of course, this type of argument is exactly the sort of bigotry and
> racism that the Nazi party popularised a few decades ago. The
> allusion is quite deliberate; it is difficult to imagine that such
> 'registration acts' would not be viewed with the same contempt
> that the Nazi's racial purity ideas are now - at least in retrospect.
> --
Well, actually the 'nazi' construction tends to be toned-down or
apropriated depending on who your talking to. For instance
disagreeing with certain outspoken groups in a particular
manner will see you labeled nazi's, just as disagreeing
with certain other people will get you labeled an anti-semite
if you tackle someone who cares more about spin than facts.
Taking this further a nazi could be someone who experiments on
human subjects, or someone who believes in the 'superman' ideology,
or just someone who denies certain misconceptions about the history of
such a movement. (for instance many people aparently believe skinheads
developed out of the hitler youth, when in reality they started off as fans
of some jamacian reggae music who's name i've forgotten.).
If someone brought up the nazi's in such a debate
the demographic would split.
Half the people out there would look for grey uniforms, another
chunk would assume they mean facist politics, ect. A good spin
doctor could tie up all the loose ends, play different factors of
the construction off
against each other ("The nazi's believed in promoting the superman
and experimenting on humans. We at the GBI disagree with both
these ideas. in fact, we've just outlawed medical study of paranormals
and begun a lawsuit agains meta-centric selection criteria
in the local superteam.), ect.
Add to this the good old fashioned arrogance of society?
"No, we have learnt from the mistakes of history. Sure it
looks the same, but like i just said. . .we uh, learned. . .
about. . .stuff, so it must be diferent. .. "
It might sound silly but things like this happen. People
look at tragedies like that and say
"it could never happen here." And no matter what
happens. most agree to that. This is not aided by the fact
that various lobby groups attach accusations of 'nazism' and
'race hatred' to the most minor of issues, further desensitising
people to the issue.
I mean do you know that there's a country out there where
for a whole decade lots and lots of people decided an
enormous satanic conspiracy was taking place right outside
their houses? To the point where people were arrested
with little or no evidence, and modern wich-smeller-type-folks
actually used excuses like:
"See, there's no evidence that they've been here. That just shows
how cunning they are, to have erased it all."
If such a thing can happen in a sophisticated western nation with
NO evidence, imagine the wierd-ass public sentiment which would
be stirred up if some guy with horns held up a bank? OR just tried
to make a deposit? Sure, the satanism scare died down. . . . but
in a superheroic world there's these constant reminders in revealing
spandex.....;
> GAZZA (gazza@wantree.com.au; http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza)
> "To know others is wisdom. To know oneself is enlightment."
>
>
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From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Time Travel for Fun and Profit
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 03:21:49 +1000
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>
> Actually this may be a good way to get seed money for the rest of it.
> If you could go back and make cassettes of these programs (which one
could
> do with a time machine, an average boom box, and a boxful of tapes), you
> could probably sell those tapes to Conde Nast, and I rather suspect that
> they'd pay a pretty good price for them.
> On the other hand, you could also make a note for yourself that, once
> you have your living trust, the company buys a controlling share of Conde
> Nast about a year and a half before you return with the tapes, and then
> pass on instructions that they should buy them from you for a generous
> price with no questions asked (like how you came into possession of these
> tapes).
> ---
> Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
> Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
>
okies, herin is a master time-fraud plot i did in the tabletop Core Alpha
game:
First off, travel back to the old west and plant a bunch of platinum bars
in a cliff face,
useing the old 'golden rifle' trick. place it somwhere with no record of
prospecting.
next, discover the platinum in 1985. use it as evidence of aliens visiting
earth.
a huge media circus will surround the discovery either way.
then, travel back to 1967 and publish a book suggesting such an alien
visitation. be sure to make a claim in the book which is very precise about
how the platinum will be configured. when 1985 rolls around your estate
will make a mint.
now, go back to the old west and make sure the platinum is NOT configured
as you say it is, but such can only be seen when a very exaustive study is
made
At the same time buy property wherever you remember the media circus
springing up in 1985.
go back to 1985 and make cnn pay through the nose of a good camera position
overlooking the dig.
Go to 1977 and get into a university which you know will be involved
in the dig.
discover the platinum while looking for dinosaurs. Be really scientific and
objective, and when you 'learn' about the book from '67, claim that the
speculations
are NOT valid, give heaps of spiffy reasons why.
Use the eventual discovery of the incorrectly configured platinum to
overturn the
theory you placed in the book, which will still sell like hotcakes
reguardless.
Use the whole thing to become extremly well known in 'xenoarcheology', and
be invited onto a top-secret paramnormal-security-guarded
dig in thailand which has uncovered a buried object with platinum-like
properties.
Get the superhuman help to exaust themselves uncovering the object from
it's
bedrock grave, all the while insisting that it's just a burial chamber and
there's
nothing to worry about.
Once uncovered, enter your eons-old spacecraft, remove your human
disguise and take off for britain- those druids are gonna pay for trapping
you on this mudball for six thousand years!
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From: "Robert" <baron@stlnet.com>
To: "Champs" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 12:27:19 -0500
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>>>>>On a legal note, in real life any form of Mutant Registration
>>>>>would be blatantly unconstitutional. It would be the legal
>>>>>equivalent of forcing all black people to be "registered".
>>>
>>>>Not all black people are born with the ability to level mountains with a
>>>>thought or produce flames from their hands at the age of 13. Mutants are
>>>>registered because they can pose a severe public threat. Just as
handguns
>>>>and explosives and drugs are regulated, so must the powers of
metahumans.
>>>
>>>A smart person can go, grab a bunch of chemistry books, buy a whole bunch
>>of
>>>_legal_ chemicals, and make lots of nasty bombs and toxic substances.
>>
>>Most chemicals that actually MAKE those explosives are carefully monitored
>>and controlled.
>
>Forgive me if this is an urban legend, but I was under the impression that
>you could make napalm out of gasoline and packing peanuts, both of which
>I obtained legally within the last 72 hours out of sheer coincidence. And
>wasn't the whole point of the Oklahoma City bombing that they /hadn't/
>"carefully monitored and controlled" that particular purchase?
>
Actually its gasoline and laundry detergent... though I think you can do it
with packing peanuts too. Any chemistry major can do it or anyone with the
Anarchist's Cookbook can show you how to do it. Laws about fertilizer were
already in place before the bombing but were not being strictly enforced at
ALL. Now, they are a little more carefully followed.
>>>By the
>>>above argument, anyone intelligent enough to do this would have to be
>>>registered with the government, because they pose a severe public
threat -
>>>as much or more than any twit who can shoot energy beams.
>>
>>Unabomber anyone? The above statement does not relate to the logic used
>>previously. Chemicals and their mixtures are NOT an innate ability. Having
>>the intelligence to do it is one thing, being someone who can make people
>>spontaneously explode with a whim is another. Metahuman powers are a wild
>>card and as such can definately present a public threat or even a threat
to
>>the metahuman themselves.
>
>And I'm sure PinkMan, the Man Who Can Turn You Pink, is perfectly
comfortable
>with this line of reasoning--obviously, it's necessary to have his privacy
>violated because some other mutant /might/ "present a public threat or even
>a threat to the metahuman themselves."
>
Yes, if I was Pinkman, I would be pissed too. Not only for the violation of
privacy but also because God really screwed you with the powers you got. How
manly could you BE with this power. *chuckle*
>Mutant/metahuman powers would be about as innately dangerous across the
>board as chemicals/mixtures are an innate ability of the knowledgeable
>chemist--i.e., the chances that those powers could and would be use to harm
>themselves or others probably aren't much higher (if even equal to) the
>chances that a person with knowledge of dangerous chemical compositions
>could have the ability to get his hands on said items and the desire to
>use them.
>
The government has a long list of chemicals and they know pretty much how
they explode and what they look like afterwords so they can easily be
traced, sales records can be cross referenced, suspects are checked to see
if they have chemistry degrees and or books on the subject. When you have a
paranormal death or occurence, their are no sales records or reciepts to
track down and there are no degress to check for. Now, law enforcement
agencies have an exhaustive list of people and their powers to choose from.
>>>Registering
>>>paranormals wouldn't work. Why not? More trouble than it's worth! You
make
>>a
>>>law, you make criminals.
>>
>>Who here has registered for the draft? If you haven't, you are a criminal.
>
>Somebody better tell Illinois this. They stopped requiring it the year I
>went to college--something about that whole funky draft thing being
repealed
>on account of our already-huge National Guard and armed-forces reserves?
>
Whups, showing my age... but you get the point.
>>Who here has driven a car without proper liscense and registration? You
are
>>a criminal. Why aren't THESE laws more trouble than they are worth? There
is
>>a percieved necessity for these laws.
>
>OK, Selective Service was one of the earlier-mentioned breaches of
>constitutional etiquette; especially in a peacetime world, it wouldn't have
>survived much longer simultaneous with the ERA movement anyhow. And the
latter
>example gives me a choice, which isn't always a bad one: I don't HAVE to
get
>a driver's license, if public transportation, cycling, and/or walking fill
my
>needs.
>
Right, but you have to get a social security number if you are expected to
work, right? Ever try to get a job without one? Its not a law that will make
you a criminal but not being able to secure a decent job is pretty damn near
LIKE punishment.
>But in the case of mutants, they can't decide to not be mutants. It's
simply
>not equivalent to owning a gun, or a car, or whatever. It's equivalent to
>being black, Jewish, or near-sighted.
>
I have yet to see a black man make things melt with a whim. I have have yet
to see a Jewish man lift a tank above his head (Oi!) and I have yet to see
someone near-sighted make cars explode with a cough. These things frighten
people and I honestly think metahumans would be discriminated against for it
by a wide array of people who were either fearful or jealous of them. Ergo,
politicians jump on bandwagons and metahumans start to register.
>>>Now you've made criminals of _any_ paranormal who
>>>doesn't register. Does this seem like a smart idea? Do you want to go
>>around
>>>arresting guys who can shoot laser beams or crush cars with their bare
>>>hands?
>>
>>no, but politely asking them a few queestions, offering them assistance
and
>>incentives for registering and providing them with job assistance and
>>placement.... "Gee," thinks the brick "I get stuff FOR registering and
its
>>a hassle if I don't.....well... I think I'll register."
>
>Let me put it a different way. You're telling Sister Stronger-Than-You that
>her ability to crush a Buick over your head and laugh off a howitzer is
>too risky for the government to ignore, so they'll have to keep tabs on
her.
>Now, you're right--she MIGHT decide that that "stuff" you mention is worth
>a little loss of privacy.
>
>BUT ... let's face it. A chick with that much strength and toughness needs
>help getting a job like King Kong Bundy needs weight-gain formula. She's
>a whole job market unto herself, and they'd already be coming AFTER
her--she'd
>hardly have to do more than put a want ad in some newspaper: "Situation
Wanted--
>Can Lift 50 tons."
>
Unions have banned many metahumans from joining? Why? They can do the job of
twenty men.... thats twenty union workers out of a job. Most paranormal jobs
are in the entertainment industry. There IS however a group of metahumans
that hire themselves out for whatever. They're called "Odd Jobs". They are
like a temp agency for paranormals. They, however require that you register
so that they work in full accordance with the law and they work WITH union
to negotiate settlements where paranomrals can be used in certain instances.
Why not just tell the union to piss off and get a super-strong guy to help
you build your skyscraper? Well.... you still have to have union guys to do
the electricals so that it passes city inspection. You have to have them for
all the little jobs that have to get done like basic nail banging and
finally, where do you get your lumber? They are late with their shipment.
Why? Because the union called them up and told them that no contracts will
be taken ouyt with people who cross the union.... well they don't OUTRIGHT
say that....that would be illegal.... no union would EVER break the law to
get things done like they want it done. *heh, heh*
>Most other "stuff" you could come up with are either going to seem unfair
>to non-humans and cause resentment (yeah, I can just see people supporting
>a mutant tax break), or you can't guarantee the government would even be
able
>to provide (like specialized health care--there's nothing that says the
>government COULD come up with an antidote for SStY's wierd vulnerability
>to argon gas--they can't even cure my hay fever).
>
Incentives for joining AMPERSAT:
An 800 number you can call for 24 hour assistance in case you or your family
is attacked.
AMPERSAT testing.... knowing what your limits are and where your weaknesses
lie is handy.
Containment devices...do you have a power thats hard to control sometimes?
AMPERSAT training program.... learn what others with similar powers have
done to better their lives
AMPERSAT job placement...working closely with Odd Jobs and Champions East
and West Coast, the unions and etc, etc.
>Considering the above, unless SStY's got the education and intellect of a
>six-year-old, it's a pretty good chance that the only thing you've done
>is put the idea that "you're dangerous, and we can't stop you" into her
>head--and give her a reason not to like you. Goooooood work. :-/
>
How about "You might be dangerous, we'd like to help you by showing you what
you can do with your powers and maybe help you get a better shot at some
jobs if you want to go public with your powers or don't have any choice in
the matter (i.e. I'm a permanently blue glowing ball of light and its hard
filling out an app for McDonalds now without fingers.) We have a traing
program that will help you learn control of your powers and we have a number
you can call if you EVER run into any problems. We're here to help."
<snip>
>>>Unless the police had some _very_ powerful hardware, arresting
>>>unregistered paranorms would be impossible - and if they did have the
>>>equipment, the ensuing devastation would very likely be blamed on the
>>>government!
>>
>>Usually they pick their targets and stand-offs a little bit better.
AMPERSAT
>>is definately not the John Wayne stand-off type. They are the
>>sleeping-pill-in-his-favorite-taco-bell-burritto type. They carefully
>>research their targets IF pressed to take them out and they usually are
>>bright enough to pit "official" metahumans against unregistered metahumans
>>when possible. ("Mr. Nuetron? Yes, this is Kyle Walker from AMPERSAT. We
>>have an unregistered and possibly dangerous metahuman that needs to be
>>captured. We just don't have the ability to capture him without your help
>>and your country would appreciate your assistance... and oh yes... those
>>Mets tickets you were hunting for... I just happen to have a pair...
you'll
>>practically be sitting in the dug-out.... and hows your duaghter doing in
>>that private school we got her enrolled in? Fine? Great to hear.")
Usually,
>>they are aided by other hero groups and usually they don't hunt down
people.
>>They're a "kinder, gentler Orwellian fascist government group".
>
>You realize, the above situation you've just created would tick off BOTH
>solid liberals (as a classic ACLU-piquing situation of violating a
minority's
>constitutional rights) and radical conservatives (who'll take one look at
>a group of powerful mutants in the government's back pocket and start
stocking
>up the napalm and assault weapons for Armageddon again) ... AND it hinges
>on being able to convince mutants to assault other mutants for a crime
>that harms society at about the same level as a parking ticket.
>
Again... AMPERSAT will only use violence as a last resort. If they HAVE too,
they do it very quickly and with as minimal damage as possible. Most
AMPERSAT agents will research a target, if a target has a weakness (whether
physical, mental or social) it will be fully exploited to get the job done
and finally, if all else fails, have someone else do the work. How many law
abiding heroes would watch law enforcement officials go to their doom rather
than lend a hand in subduing a confused and/or criminal metahuman.
>>>Second, anyone could challenge the registration bill based on the
existance
>>>of Genocide alone. A _powerful_ organization known to be going around and
>>>killing mutants. Registering alone is government mandated _suicide_. It
>>>wouldn't take many cases of "Gosh, Bob got gunned down by Genocide only
>>>weeks after registering..." before the law got struck down. Unless the
>>>government offered 'protection' to registered mutants (aka Concentration
>>>Camps, anyone?)...
>>
>>Registering is NOT public admittance of your powers nor is it required
that
>>you tell people that you are a metahuman. Your identity is held in
>>confidence with this federal organization. Now, if a HACKER were to get
in,
>>THEN you would really need to worry. (Thats an upcoming plot thread.)
>
>Due to the Freedom of Information Act, registering WOULD be a public
>admittance.
>
Wrong, if you your federal records are sealed for any reason, the freedom of
Information act cannot get into them. Thats like saying people in the
witness relocation act are screwed because all the Mafia has to do is go
ask.
>>I'm NOT saying registering mutants is right or EVEN intelligent but I
think
>>it would be a political reality. People fear the unknown and chaos....
>>hormonally active teens running around with the powers of Gods....
well....
>>thats a bit dangerous in most people's opinions. One could argue that
power
>>does corrupt and young minds usually aren't mature enough to handle
massive
>>amounts of responsibility. People fear this power. Politicians recognize
>>this (especially the right wing Republicans) and jump on the chance to
ride
>>the ticket in on the "Mutant Registration" ticket.
>
>I'd go as far to say that the idea of a metahuman registration BILL would
>be a political reality--it sounds good in a 20 second soundbite to people
>that don't think much, kind of like flag-burning laws. But much like the
>Communications Decency Act, I think suggesting such legislation would
galvanize
>so many different groups against it that no such law could stay on the
books
>long enough to put anybody in jail.
>
>>Do I think its right? I don't think I could support it. I would be in
favor
>>of a bill that would count super-powers used in the commission of previous
>>crimes to be thoroughly registered but not everyone who was a mutant. I
>>don't think its the governments business and no harm, no foul. Right?
>
>I think it's important to remember that any use of a super power in the
>commission of a crime /would/ probably activate that whole "aggravated"
>business. Beyond that, and maybe some sort of Megan's Law corollary, good
>luck getting anything else passed.
>
>>Do I think the majority of the public would be this open-minded....
well....
>>the average IQ of the American citizen I was once told was about 80...
about
>>10 points above moron. When movies are released in the U.S., they are
>>typically 10 to 20 minutes shorter than their European releases because
>>Americans have a much shorter attention span. Gays are not allowed in the
>>military in the U.S. Women were only recently allowed in to military
>>academies run by government funding. Women aren't paid as much as men even
>>in government positions. Well, the list of social injustices grow.
>
>Taking those points in order:
>a) Urban Legend.
>b) American movie-goers have a short attention span? Just HOW long was
Titanic,
>a movie where we all knew how it was going to end?
>c/d) Touche. But then again, the U.S. military isn't the U.S.--nobody's
been
>smart enough to strip them of their insular community.
>e) Misleading context. I can trace back a USA Today article if you want the
>statistics, but basically, men are only "paid more" because the people who
>do the studies don't bother to factor in seniority. Keep the stats to
direct-
>hire comparisons, and the difference dwindles to practically nil.
>
>Not that I disagree with the general thrust that America has a busload of
>hypocrisy related to its founding ideals--there's just better examples out
>there.
a) Actually the Urban Legend came out of a Psychology Today but it was from
the 80's... things may have changed.
b) I said the average movie. Titanic as far from average in my opinion.
Check out the European version of Highlander and Superman. They're cool.
c/d) Agreed.
e) You may be right, its something my sister told me and she works ofr the
gov't. I'll check it out.
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From: "Andreano, Keith HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com>
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: A Matter of Law
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 13:41:42 -0500
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GAZZA Said:
>The media could be used as a powerful weapon for or against mutants.
This is an important observation. The media tends to be very
biased. What do you think the media would do (in real life).
Would they say "Paranormals are people too!" and treat
them like a politically correct minority, or would they say
"They are a threat to the control of the centralized government!"
and want them put in concentration camps. This would
strongly affect public opinion in the campaign world.
If you want, Puma can say how it is in mine! ^_^;
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;
"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"
- Joan of Arc's .sig
Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 11:56:30 -0700
To: "Champions Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 02:56 AM 5/13/1998 +1000, happyelf wrote:
>Well, actually the 'nazi' construction tends to be toned-down or
>apropriated depending on who your talking to. For instance
>disagreeing with certain outspoken groups in a particular
>manner will see you labeled nazi's, just as disagreeing
>with certain other people will get you labeled an anti-semite
>if you tackle someone who cares more about spin than facts.
In support of this position:
Michael Medved, a movie reviewer of some note here in the USA (not as
big as Gene Siskel, Roger Ebert, or Leonard Maltin, but familiar to many
nonetheless), has at times been accused of being a Nazi because of his
conservative stance on issues and his distaste for nudity, profanity,
extreme violence, and "anti-God" sentiments in movies, to say nothing of
his attachment to Pat Robertson, the Christian Coalition, and similar
individuals and groups.
In truth, Mr. Medved is a practicing Jew.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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From: "Andreano, Keith HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com>
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: A Matter of Law
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 14:03:53 -0500
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> I think it's kinda funny how right-wing Republicans are so typically
>eld up as being the folks who would so definitely support such
>egistration, considering that it's left-wing Democrats who are the most
>ocally in favor of restricting gun ownership rights, and it was a
>eft-wing Democrat who put Japanese-Americans into internment camps.
Very true! Just look at how they are treating Israel today!
Conservatives are portrayed by the liberals (who control
most of the media) as being anti-freedom, as being
bigots, etc, when the facts tend to point at things being the
other way around! Remember, the big left wing liberal
societies of this century are: Communist Russia, Red China
and Nazi Germany (NAZI = National Socialist Workers Party).
Makes you think!
Nice game material for a "secret plot" going on! ^_^;
Heroes know NPC who works for government, he finds out
something, "commits suicide" like Foster, etc....
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;
"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"
- Joan of Arc's .sig
Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 15:45:41 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Re: PBEM game
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by Hero Games
>More important, we'll be taking advantage of WebRPG's online roleplaying
set-
up, so you'll be able to play Hero games on-line. Watch for more details
soon...<
I haven't messed with WebRPG too much. Is this like playing in a big chat
window where things advance immediately, or is this still play by e-mail?
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 15:03:13 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: Robert <baron@stlnet.com>
cc: Champs <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Tue, 12 May 1998, Robert wrote:
> >And I'm sure PinkMan, the Man Who Can Turn You Pink, is perfectly
> comfortable
> >with this line of reasoning--obviously, it's necessary to have his privacy
> >violated because some other mutant /might/ "present a public threat or even
> >a threat to the metahuman themselves."
> >
> Yes, if I was Pinkman, I would be pissed too. Not only for the violation of
> privacy but also because God really screwed you with the powers you got. How
> manly could you BE with this power. *chuckle*
You know, in skimming over this thread, I thought maybe 'PinkMan' was some
sort of superhero from the McCarthy era...now /there's/ a scary thought.
I think a lot of the 'mutant registration' concepts are based on just that
sort of witch-hunt mentality. Personally, Joe McCarthy and his tactics
scare the hell out of me, because they're so difficult to combat.
(Disagree? You must be on /their side/.)
It's happened before...it could happen again. (In fact, look at what
happens to men who get accused of sexual harassment or rape...even if the
court finds them innocent, their reputation is ruined.)
> >>When movies are released in the U.S., they are
> >>typically 10 to 20 minutes shorter than their European releases because
> >>Americans have a much shorter attention span.
I think this is mostly a case of underestimating the average American.
Hollywood and TV has an irritating tendency to 'dumb down' everything.
I'ts my belief that it's a vicious circle - if you don't get stimulated
and/or push a little bit, you'll lose your mental flexibility...which
makes people 'dumb it down' even more, etc, etc.
Also note that audiences are willing to sit through long movies - /if/
they're good, and not the utter crap that generally gets released.
'Titanic' is a semi-good example, even though it tended to play to the
least common denominator. 'Braveheart' is possibly a better one. On the
other hand, I simply cannot imagine willingly sitting through two and a
half hours of, say, a Jim Carrey movie...
Plot Seed: The lowered attention span of the American public is due to a
deliberate plot by (an evil mastermind/a government faction/the
Illuminati/some other country/space aliens/whatever) to 'soften us up' and
lower the nation's mental fitness. Will the heros be able to discover the
plot in time, and can they reverse it's effects? Find out next month...
J
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj
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From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 16:18:02 EDT
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Re: Re: PBEM game
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
In a message dated 5/12/98 12:56:48 PM, DBStallard@compuserve.com wrote:
>I haven't messed with WebRPG too much. Is this like playing in a big chat
>
>window where things advance immediately, or is this still play by e-mail?
It's an online game board where you can position your "miniatures" and game in
real-time. Very cool.
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 16:44:08 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: END: Running out of it
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by INTERNET:john.desmarais@ibm.net
>Most of the characters I build have an END/REC combo that allows for
about 3 turns of full-out power usage. If the combat lasts longer
than expected or if I push anything then I could have a problem (in
actual game play though I rarely am doing a full burn EVERY phase, so
they can usually last a little longer).<
I almost never have combats that last more than 3 turns, so essentially END
becomes irrelevant except for telling you how many times you are allowed to
Push or use your mega-power which has increased END.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 12 May 1998 16:52:52 -0400
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Bob Greenwade writes:
> Just as a point here: the inalienable right of life, liberty, and the
> pursuit of happiness are in the Declaration of Independence, which is
> actually more of a declaration of principles than anything with solid
> legal standing.
If it is a declaration of principles, they are the principles upon which
the United States, including all of its laws, is founded.
> You *may* be confusing this with the Fifth Amendment, which states
> (among other, more well-known things) that "No person shall... be
> deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law."
I believe that is the Third or Fourth Ammendment.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 12 May 1998 16:55:00 -0400
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Filksinger writes:
> The Constitution, at no time, grants anyone the right to "life, liberty,
> and the pursuit of happiness". That is the Declaration of Independence,
> and has no force of legality. Sorry.
Check the Third or Fourth Ammendments (I think), which make that into law.
A citizen cannot be deprived of life or liberty without due process.
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 15:14:04 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 04:52 PM 5/12/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Bob Greenwade writes:
>
>> Just as a point here: the inalienable right of life, liberty, and the
>> pursuit of happiness are in the Declaration of Independence, which is
>> actually more of a declaration of principles than anything with solid
>> legal standing.
>
>If it is a declaration of principles, they are the principles upon which
>the United States, including all of its laws, is founded.
That is 100% correct.
The Declaration itself, however, is not binding law.
>> You *may* be confusing this with the Fifth Amendment, which states
>> (among other, more well-known things) that "No person shall... be
>> deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law."
>
>I believe that is the Third or Fourth Ammendment.
That is incorrect. I was looking at the text of the Constitution when I
wrote the above, and I just double-checked to be sure.
The Third deals with quartering soldiers in private homes; the Fourth
deals with unreasonable search and seizure, and the requirements of
warrants. The Fifth has the above text, in addition to the better-known
provisions dealing with Grand Juries, double jeopardy, and
self-incrimination.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 15:15:16 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 04:55 PM 5/12/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Filksinger writes:
>
>> The Constitution, at no time, grants anyone the right to "life, liberty,
>> and the pursuit of happiness". That is the Declaration of Independence,
>> and has no force of legality. Sorry.
>
>Check the Third or Fourth Ammendments (I think), which make that into law.
>A citizen cannot be deprived of life or liberty without due process.
Life, liberty, or property, per the *Fifth* Amendment.
However, I think that the key phrase which led to this part of the
discussion was that "pursuit of happiness" part.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
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Date: 12 May 1998 18:38:35 -0400
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Bob Greenwade writes:
> the Fourth deals with unreasonable search and seizure, and the
> requirements of warrants.
Yep. The Fourth is where "mutant registration" laws would be attacked.
The "unreasonable search and seizure" paraphrasing tends to restrict its
meaning to warrants and such. The full scope of the Fourth is much broader
than that. Any law that has the purpose of regulating the actions of a
person (citizen) based solely on his existence is an abrogration of his
Fourth Amendment right to the liberty of his person.
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:57:44 -0400
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net>
Subject: RE: A Matter of Law
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 02:03 PM 5/12/98 -0500, Andreano, Keith HIM,VA wrote:
>Very true! Just look at how they are treating Israel today!
>Conservatives are portrayed by the liberals (who control
>most of the media) as being anti-freedom, as being
>bigots, etc, when the facts tend to point at things being the
>other way around! Remember, the big left wing liberal
>societies of this century are: Communist Russia, Red China
>and Nazi Germany (NAZI = National Socialist Workers Party).
Ummm...no. Communism (Soviet or Chinese style) is considered 'left'.
Fascism (German or otherwise) is considered 'right'. Just like McCarthy
was 'right'.
Restricting freedom has nothing to do with 'right' or 'left', it's more a
matter of issues. Both sides were in favor of the CDA. As a big fan of
martial arts, the freedom to be in mixed martial arts events is being
attacked by politicians, mostly conservatives.
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 19:06:58 -0400 (EDT)
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>>Like fun they are! You'd be amazed at what you can make with kitchen
>>chemistry; let alone bathtub chemistry...
>>
>True, but you have to fill out forms to get fertilizer and large amounts of
>ammonia now.
Heck, forget about fertilizer and ammonia. Flour dust and a match is all you
need for a fuel air explosion.
>>Having the ability to do something and actually doing something are two
>>_entirely_ different things; this is a basis of law!
>
>Thats not true. HAVING fully automatic weapons is a crime,
But having the ability to acquire them is not. Similarly, being able to buy
illegal narcotics does not make you a criminal.
> yet you've not
>committed any crime except for having the firearm. The perception is that
>the weapon cannot be used except for uses which are criminal in nature, ergo
>it is illegal to have them unless properly registered.
But, this reason cannot apply to mutants, who can have _any_ power under the
sun. The use of mutant powers cannot de facto be assumed to be criminal in
nature.
>a criminal by the letter of the law. Now, I will agree that a weapon is
>property and not an innate ability and you actually have a choice as to
>whether you purchase the weapon so you are then choosing to break the law or
>not BUT if a mutant (in my game) does not willfully choose to register
>himself then he or she is making a choice as well. Having the power is not
>against the law....not REGISTERING it IS.
But then the question begs: What good does registering do the public?
Considering that the list is (supposed to be) kept secret, and no
restrictions are placed on mutants with 'controllable' powers, registration
is nothing but an invasion of privacy, isn't it?
>> If a person is in
>>stable mental condition, and has control of his powers, there is _no_
>reason
>>to punish them for having said powers. Only once they use their powers to
>>break the law does it become a problem.
>
>I happen to agree with you.... but I think it would still be a political
>reality. I don't have to LIKE the law to obey it.
We're not arguing that such a bill might show up. But it wouldn't last for
very long, if it got passed at all.
Let's also remember that laws are only obeyed by good citizens. Joe Evil
Mutant will not register and go on to commit crimes - will he worry about
breaking the law by not registering? I doubt it, he's too busy breaking
OTHER laws. So all the government does is wastes its time and money
registering law abiding mutants (oh, and incidentally prosecuting mutants
who commit no other crime than wishing to keep their powers secret for
whatever reason). It's stupid, it's not feasable, and it's constitutionally
insupportable.
>>Maybe, but registering for the draft or driving a car does not subject you
>>to prejudice nor actual physical threat. If Genocide is known to be around,
>>people will not want to register, for their own safety.
>>
>You act as if when you register it would then be public knowledge. If
>anything, you are given extra help to avoid such groups and an AMPERSAT team
>WILL respond to defend metahumans from said nasty groups if necessary and
>EVEN help relocate the metahuman if necessary as part of a federal
>relocation program.
Gah. Why doesn't AMPERSAT just quit wasting time and crack down on Genocide
instead? Oh, and stating "the list is not public knowledge" means _nothing_
in a superhero setting.
>Could you PLEASE explain why the level of living would go down WHEN
>REGISTRATION IS NOT PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE! PLEASE read the posts more carefully,
>I've stated this a few times before.
Yes, but it's simply not believable. In a world where telepaths and
cyberkinetics exist (let alone desolids), and where there is technology to
match, there is only one way to keep a secret - make sure no one knows the
secret exists. The existance of the list is public knowledge, therefore any
organization capable of taking on superpowered mutants will be able to get
their hands on it. In extremis, Genocide could capture an AMPERSAT agent and
torture him for names. Easy.
It's not a matter of me not reading what you're writing, I am. It's just
that what you're stating is not logically acceptable. How would you
register? Go to an office? Make a phone call? What about Genocide
surveillance of such points?
>>The main problem being that unless an unregistered mutant can be _very_
>>thoroughly researched, his/her power level is completely unquantified.
>>
>Which is why they are SO very cautious and pick their fights. I thought I
>went over this. They wouldn't jump someone in a crowded mall. They would do
>a LOT of surveillance and carefully catalog all they have seen.
Which begs the question; how many paranorms manifest each year, and the
further question: how much funding does AMPERSAT have, because it's going to
need a freaking _huge_ budget for all this!
> Most likely
>they wouldn't try to take the person down as much as quietly approach them
>and ask them to register.
Err...why bother? Just say "Hi, we're AMPERSAT, we know you're a mutant and
have thus and thus powers. You are hereby registered. Have a nice day!" Do
you really need somebody to sign a form saying: Yes, I register that I'm a
mutant, yadda yadda?
The point of somebody not registering means they want to keep thier powers a
secret. They probably will not use them in public. That, or they will use
them in public and start a career either as a supervillian or superhero. The
public should care little about the first group (who just want to be left
alone), and the second group pretty much points itself out, correct?
>>Bah, that's assumed! You actually think a _government_ could keep such a
>>list safe? They can't even balance budgets!
>
>You're preaching to the choir, reverend. As a matter of fact, a plot thread
>is getting ready to start where someone actually manages to hack into the
>AMPERSAT network and will be holding a lot of secret identities hostage. But
>anyway, yes I think they can keep this a secret. How many people know what
>the interior of Deep Red looks like. How many people know what the Hell Deep
>Red IS? Anyone here know by heart the secret tunnel system below the White
>House? Can anyone even tell me how many CIA sponsored assassinations there
>were last year and who was hit? Yeah, thats what I thought. You think I'm
>over-estimating the government, I think your underestimating it.
Real world, yes, but we're talking a world with superpowers. The balance of
power shifts to where a single individual can have more information
gathering power than an entire government has information hiding power.
Additionally, if the world has organizations with enough firepower to take
on mutants (Genocide), they'll have enough power to break into any
government facility if need be. "Super" organizations taking over government
facilities is old hat in comics.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"FORM BLAZIN' SHILLELAGH!"
-Vaultron Force, Gold Digger #38
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins and Ron Prins
jprins@interhop.net
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:14:07 -0500
To: "Champs" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>>Having the ability to do something and actually doing something are two
>>_entirely_ different things; this is a basis of law!
>
>Thats not true. HAVING fully automatic weapons is a crime, yet you've not
>committed any crime except for having the firearm. The perception is that
>the weapon cannot be used except for uses which are criminal in nature, ergo
>it is illegal to have them unless properly registered. I may HAVE a fully
>automatic weapon and have never used it on anyone or anything but I am STILL
>a criminal by the letter of the law. Now, I will agree that a weapon is
>property and not an innate ability and you actually have a choice as to
>whether you purchase the weapon so you are then choosing to break the law or
>not BUT if a mutant (in my game) does not willfully choose to register
>himself then he or she is making a choice as well. Having the power is not
>against the law....not REGISTERING it IS.
Fully automatic weapons are illegal because it has been determined by the
lawmakers (and I will not get into whether I agree with them or not) that
they represent overkill for purposes of hunting or legitimate self-defense.
In other words, in their opinion, you have no good reason to own one; its
only function is as an instrument of death, perhaps in quantity.
Mutant powers are not automatically lethal, and mutants cannot, as a class
of people, be equated with owners of fully automatic weapons, whether or
not you consider choice or property as issues. I think the best you could
hope for is to define certain types of mutant abilities (pyrokinesis,
certain types of EB, any Killing Attack, etc.) any specify that anyone in
possession of such abilities would need to register them. Even this might
be questionable on a Constitutional basis, but at least Pinkman wouldn't
have to be concerned about his privacy; since the power to turn someone
pink represents no threat to anyone, he'd be exempt from registration.
Also, you'd probably have to demonstrate beyond reasonable doubt that the
muntant in question was *aware* of his abilities; mutant powers manifest at
different times and under different circumstances and a person might have
latent abilities for years and not be aware of his mutant status.
Sentinel-type "hounds" scouring the city for unregistered muties would
definitely be out of line. A person might be required to register within,
say, 90 days of becoming aware of having mutant powers that fell within the
range of potential public hazards that needed to be monitored. If you have
no such power, or if it has never manifested, you should have no legal
concerns.
By the way, some similar issues are addressed in Laurell K. Hamilton's
"Anita Blake" series. Blake is a licensed vampire executioner living in
present-day St. Louis. The world is familiar to the reader except that
vampires, lycanthropes and others are widely known to exist. Blake herself
is an animator (she can raise the dead for short periods as zombies, and
this is how she earns a living, clearing up murder cases and settling
ingeritance questions by asking the deceased). Anyway, vampires are in the
process of acquiring legal status as citizens, so that it's currently
illegal to stake one just for being a vamp -- without a court order, it's
murder. Also, it's illegal to be a lycanthrope; or at least it's legal to
discriminate against them for hiring. A very good series, seven books so far.
Damon
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|****************** Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs *******************|
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Damon & Peni's homepages: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3401/ |
| Children's Books -- Dolls -- X-Files -- Pulp Magazines |
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 20:56:01 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Reply-To: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: A Matter of Law
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Tue, 12 May 1998, Andreano, Keith HIM,VA wrote:
(Quoting somebody else in this first part)
> > I think it's kinda funny how right-wing Republicans are so typically
> >held up as being the folks who would so definitely support such
> >registration, considering that it's left-wing Democrats who are the most
> >vocally in favor of restricting gun ownership rights, and it was a
> >left-wing Democrat who put Japanese-Americans into internment camps.
It seems to me that this is a result of the silliness of trying to map
political viewpoints onto a one-dimensional scale. Yes, the people who
oppose gun registration would likely be opposed to such a scheme (I recall
once when Marvel used this plotline, the NRA was depicted as being against
it); so would the people who spend a lot of time worrying about racism.
This only seems strange when you apply the fairly non-descriptive labels
"right-wing" and "left-wing" to these groups.
> Very true! Just look at how they are treating Israel today!
> Conservatives are portrayed by the liberals (who control
> most of the media)
Yep. In fact, most of the media is controlled by a small enclave of
pot-smoking hippies who live in southern Wisconsin. This whole thing
about the vast majority of the mass media being owned by huge corporations
is just a smokescreen.
> as being anti-freedom, as being
> bigots, etc, when the facts tend to point at things being the
> other way around! Remember, the big left wing liberal
> societies of this century are: Communist Russia, Red China
> and Nazi Germany (NAZI = National Socialist Workers Party).
You know, considering how recently somebody on the list mentioned the
way people will try to equate anyone and everyone they disagree with
to Nazis, this is faintly hilarious.
Sure, the Nazis are left-wing because they have "Socialist" in their
names; and the People's Republic of China really is a republic, ruled
by the people...
(Hell, the "Left wing=communist, right wing=Nazi" idea is silly enough,
but trying to associate _both_ groups with your enemy is really overkill.)
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 20:58:08 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: The Cost Of STR
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Tue, 12 May 1998, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Actually, Fuzion did fix strength, though in a different way -- they just
> removed most figured stats from it. In HERO, +5 STR gives x2 lifting, +1d6
> HTH, +1 PD, +1 REC, +2.5 STUN, +1" superleap. In Fuzion, +1 Strength gives
> either x1.4 or x2 lifting, +1d6 HTH, and +1 REC. If HERO strength didn't
> give figured stats, I don't think anyone would have a problem with its cost.
Yep, that's definitely my preferred solution. Trash figured stats and a
_lot_ of Champions' point-balance problems disappear.
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 21:07:15 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Tue, 12 May 1998, GAZZA wrote:
> * Let us suppose that these mutants are actually powerful enough to pose a
> natural hazard. In the real world, as opposed to that often less
> interesting place known as 'fiction', I suspect that most such mutants
> would be simply drafted into the military (this is not an uncommon
> occurrence in the Wild Card novels, for example). Indeed, I would think
> that 'signing up' would be 'firmly encouraged'. But if they are
> powerful enough to pose a threat, then they are certainly powerful
> enough to 'just say no' to registration acts. If you assume that the
> politicians considering such a bill have the facts available, then they
> would have to be quite shortsighted not to realise that enforcing such
> laws would be problematic. It's really a catch-22 situation - if you
> have the ability to force mutants to register, then they aren't enough
> of a threat to require them to register. If you can't force them to
> register, then TRYING to do so will create precisely the public threat
> that you are attempting to prevent.
This is a good argument why such a policy _shouldn't_ be implemented, but
I'm afraid I'm too cynical to buy it as an argument for why it _wouldn't_
happen. If people are paranoid about supers, a superhuman registration act
is going to look good at first glance; and in a democracy, ideas that sound
good when you don't think about them have a decent chance of becoming law.
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 21:11:05 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
To: Champs <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Mon, 11 May 1998, Robert wrote:
> Not all black people are born with the ability to level mountains with a
> thought or produce flames from their hands at the age of 13.
In fact, the percentage of black people born with such abilities is
surprisingly low.
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 17:21:42 -0700
To: "Champs" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 06:14 AM 5/12/1998 -0500, Bryant Berggren wrote:
>>Who here has driven a car without proper liscense and registration? You are
>>a criminal.
>
>No, you've committed a traffic violation -- I'm pretty sure this /isn't/ a
>felony. By your argument, you'd be a "criminal" for getting parking tickets.
It apparently depends on the jurisdiction. Around these parts, it's a
misdemeanor. I've known a couple of people who've served jail time for
driving while suspended.
>> Why aren't THESE laws more trouble than they are worth? There is
>> a percieved necessity for these laws.
>
>There's a perceived necessity for these laws, AND they aren't inherently
>discriminatory (except for the draft ... but countries do really stupid
>things in wartime situations). I can choose not to drive, and thus not need
>a license. I can't choose not to be a metahuman.
If this is intended as an argument that the registration law wouldn't
exist, it's a pretty hollow one. Plenty of inherently discriminatory laws
have been on the books, and a few are still there.
>>I'm NOT saying registering mutants is right or EVEN intelligent but I think
>>it would be a political reality.
>
>During WWII, definitely. ESPECIALLY during Vietnam Era. But I think it would
>have gone the way of grandfather clauses, poll taxes, and Selective Service
>in the 90s.
I'm less certain of that. In light of the preciousness we've tended to
assign the allegedly constitutional "right of privacy," you may well be
right; but then again, as I say, there's almost always been someone who is
either "obviously not human" or who supposedly post a clear and present
danger (usually far less than is purported).
>> People fear the unknown and chaos ... hormonally active teens running
>> around with the powers of Gods ... well ... thats a bit dangerous in most
>> people's opinions.
>
>It'll be a lot MORE dangerous when it's /antagonized/ teens running around
>with the powers of gods.
No kidding... but again, if this is an argument about whether the
registration law would exist, it's pretty hollow.
On the other hand, if you're merely arguing that such a law would be a
stupid one, I think you're preaching to the choir; most if not all of us
here agree.
>> Do I think its right? I don't think I could support it. I would be in
>> favor of a bill that would count super-powers used in the commission of
>> previous crimes to be thoroughly registered but not everyone who was a
>> mutant. I don't think its the governments business and no harm, no foul.
>> Right?
>
>This, I could see -- marking powers as part of your criminal record.
I also tend to agree here.
>> Do I think the majority of the public would be this open-minded ...
>> well ... the average IQ of the American citizen I was once told was about
>> 80 ... about 10 points above moron.
>
>I think the "average IQ" of any nation short of a despotic socialist state
>is going to rank under 100 -- there are more outliers on the low end than
>the high end. Brain damage, genetic disorders, neural diseases, etc. never
>(well, almost never -- bad idea to state absolutes) creates geniuses, but it
>will create imbeciles. Ergo, the mean IQ gets tilted to the low end. I'd
>guess the median and the mode in America to both be 100, give or take the
>margin of error on the tests.
This segment of the discussion is interesting, since IQ 100 is itself
supposed to represent the average. (At least, in theory.)
>Also remember that intelligence isn't anywhere near as measurable as we'd
>like it to be. :/ As the old saying goes, IQ tests measure one thing: your
>skill at taking IQ tests.
Yeah, my best friend would probably rate relatively low on a classic IQ
test (say, around 85-90 by my guess), but for overall intelligence I'd rate
her at slightly above average.
>One other thing to remember is that nowhere in the great contract of reality
>is normal mundane humanity guaranteed a balancing factor against metahumans.
While I agree with this statement...
>Yes, metahumans can be dangerous. And you'll find out just HOW dangerous
>they can be if you start abusing or antagonizing them. In my estimation, if
>metahumans are really dangerous enough to demand this kind of law, then 1
>year after you pass it you'll be living in the United States of Metahumanity.
...this one isn't necessarily the case. There may merely be *enough*
metahumans who are this dangerous to warrant passing such a law, but also
enough who believe in civil liberties and human rights to keep those who
would conquer the nation (or the world) from achieving that goal.
Of course, the resulting battle would end up making many of our major
cities look like Sarajevo or Beirut -- and that is the real danger that's
cited in most cases where Paranormal Registration Acts and such are
proposed.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 17:29:44 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 06:14 AM 5/12/1998 -0500, Bryant Berggren wrote:
>> Or Native American, or Japanese -- and the rights of both of these
>>groups have been "legally" abridged, as have the rights of blacks (who at
>>one time had to either be registered with the government or be considered
>>escaped slaves).
>
>The key phrase is "at one time". I've got no doubt that WWII or Vietnam era
>America would have produced registration acts. But you'll notice that the
>abridgements of Native American, Japanese, and African-American rights don't
>exist TODAY? (I'm not saying these groups aren't /discriminated/ against,
>btw, I'm just saying this level of bigotry is no longer legally validated).
>By the same token, I don't think an MRA would have survived in the ever more
>"politically correct" 90s.
The "political correctness" of the 90s, and the "right of privacy" that
I've cited, are two strong reasons for such a law to not exist -- though I
don't think either is compelling. In my view, it could go either way. It
all depends on what spin is put on it, publicly. I'm not much of a spin
doctor (so I can't give much of an example), but I can see how certain
people (with a better Persuasion roll than mine) could make it seem
perfectly within the bounds of Political Correctness to keep this
"non-human monsters" in check.
>Yes, but in this case, you could be playing for all the marbles. Pass
>anti-mutant legislation, and you stand a better than even chance of a
>mutant-backed coup d'etat. There were plenty of outright rebellion attempts
>by oppressed minorities in American history (slave uprisings, et al); now,
>what if one of those uprisings had been composed /entirely/ of super-powered
>people?
This is an excellent example of why such a law would be stupid. Neither
I nor the person with the original law disagree. My point was that the
very state of being stupid doesn't mean that a law won't exist.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
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From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
To: "David Stallard" <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 20:32:24 -0400
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: END: Running out of it
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Tue, 12 May 1998 16:44:08 -0400, David Stallard wrote:
>Message text written by INTERNET:john.desmarais@ibm.net
>>Most of the characters I build have an END/REC combo that allows for
>about 3 turns of full-out power usage. If the combat lasts longer
>than expected or if I push anything then I could have a problem (in
>actual game play though I rarely am doing a full burn EVERY phase, so
>they can usually last a little longer).<
>
>I almost never have combats that last more than 3 turns, so essentially END
>becomes irrelevant except for telling you how many times you are allowed to
>Push or use your mega-power which has increased END.
You got it. I find keeping track of END to be one of the more onerous tasks involved in
playing Champions, so I deliberately build my characters such that END usage is
never a major issue.
John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org>
=================================================
Gotta question about the Champions Mailing list? Just ask.
Or, you can go look over at www.sysabend.org/champions.
Yeah, yeah, I know, it's ugly. I'll make the site prettier when
I have time.
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 17:39:36 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 06:38 PM 5/12/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>Bob Greenwade writes:
>
>> the Fourth deals with unreasonable search and seizure, and the
>> requirements of warrants.
>
>Yep. The Fourth is where "mutant registration" laws would be attacked.
>The "unreasonable search and seizure" paraphrasing tends to restrict its
>meaning to warrants and such. The full scope of the Fourth is much broader
>than that. Any law that has the purpose of regulating the actions of a
>person (citizen) based solely on his existence is an abrogration of his
>Fourth Amendment right to the liberty of his person.
The "equal protection" clause of the Fourteenth Amendement would also be
a cause for appeal against this law. In fact, besides the cited conflicts
with the Fourth, Fifth, and Fourteenth Amendments, there are probably a
couple that we haven't even thought of yet.
At the same time, though, it's not unlikely that the appeal on the basis
of the Fourth Amendment would fail, since the law doesn't make it a crime
to be a metahuman; it only makes it a crime to not register as one.
Similarly, a challenge based on the Fifth Amendment could fail on the
grounds that the passage of the law does constitute due process. (I'm not
saying in either case that it *would* fail; only that it *could.*)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 17:56:57 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 07:06 PM 5/12/1998 -0400, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>But, this reason cannot apply to mutants, who can have _any_ power under the
>sun. The use of mutant powers cannot de facto be assumed to be criminal in
>nature.
Essentially, *anything* can be assumed to be criminal in nature. There
are enough stories about outlandish laws in various jurisdictions that at
least some of them have to be true. Against the law to whistle after 10pm?
A misdemeanor to bring a parakeet within 100' of a tavern?
Heck, in Portland, Oregon, the police are allowed to put up traffic
stops and seize the automobiles of those that they suspect to be in the
process of looking for or transporting a prostitute. And even if you prove
yourself innocent, good luck getting the car back (unless you don't mind
paying a couple hundred dollars for the city's storage of your car).
(Most of the rest of the post which contained this quote is quite
sensible; I just didn't see a need to quote a lot of it just to say that.)
---
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:10:58 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
To: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: GAZZA's Analysis of the Champions List
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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GAZZA wrote:
> There's just one question I _HAVE_ to ask - how long has it been since
> your last Great Linked Debate? :-)
Not bloody long enough!!!
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 21:13:31 -0400
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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> I think it's kinda funny how right-wing Republicans are so typically
> held up as being the folks who would so definitely support such
> registration, considering that it's left-wing Democrats who are the most
> vocally in favor of restricting gun ownership rights, and it was a
> left-wing Democrat who put Japanese-Americans into internment camps.
I know what you mean. Speaking as a middle-of-the-road Democrat, I have to
admit that the Republicans would probably be no more likely to encourage
this sort of thing than anyone else. On the other hand, I'm not so sure
that, as a group, they would be any less likely either. I always figured
that the support and/or condemnation of "metahuman menace" laws would be
more or less bipartisan, probably depending more on the actions of
metahumans in the given campaign.
Jeff Reid
Morfhis@compuserve.com
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:39:59 -0700
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 09:13 PM 5/12/1998 -0400, Jeff M. Reid wrote:
>> I think it's kinda funny how right-wing Republicans are so typically
>> held up as being the folks who would so definitely support such
>> registration, considering that it's left-wing Democrats who are the most
>> vocally in favor of restricting gun ownership rights, and it was a
>> left-wing Democrat who put Japanese-Americans into internment camps.
>
>I know what you mean. Speaking as a middle-of-the-road Democrat, I have to
>admit that the Republicans would probably be no more likely to encourage
>this sort of thing than anyone else. On the other hand, I'm not so sure
>that, as a group, they would be any less likely either. I always figured
>that the support and/or condemnation of "metahuman menace" laws would be
>more or less bipartisan, probably depending more on the actions of
>metahumans in the given campaign.
Frankly, given the current and recent political status, I think you're
pretty close to target there, Jeff. Of course, it also kinda depends on
*when* this Metahuman Registration Act was passed -- who was in the White
House, who was in control of Congress, what the minority party's views
were, and so forth -- before one could actually try to fix blame. But most
of the truly stupid stuff to come out of our government has been pretty
bipartisan. (Of course, so has most of the really fantastic stuff too.)
---
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From: ErolB1 <ErolB1@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 21:47:42 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
In a message dated 98-05-12 18:30:45 EDT, voxel@theramp.net writes:
> I've always thought American legislation would be a lot less potentially
> despotic if the doctrine were established that laws can be declared
> unconstitutional for violating the preamble, i.e. that Congress can only
> make laws that obviously pertain to one of the purposes outlined within
> /and/ did not countermand any of those purposes. Just a stray thought.
I though that that's what the 10th Amendment (in the Bill of Rights) was for:
"The Powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor
prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to
the people."
Someone once suggested that every bill Congress passed should have a cite to
the Constitution showing the section that gave Congress the power to pass that
law. Senator John Glenn commented that this would bring Congress to a
screeching halt, since 90% of what Congress did couldn't be so justified.
Erol K. Bayburt
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 12 May 1998 21:49:48 -0400
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Bob Greenwade writes:
> At the same time, though, it's not unlikely that the appeal on the basis
> of the Fourth Amendment would fail, since the law doesn't make it a crime
> to be a metahuman; it only makes it a crime to not register as one.
That is where I believe the Fourth comes in. Requiring "registration"
simply for existing can be argued to be an abrogation that person's right
to the freedom of his person. In a state of emergency (ie, martial law)
such a law might carry, but that is not what is being discussed.
> Similarly, a challenge based on the Fifth Amendment could fail on the
> grounds that the passage of the law does constitute due process. (I'm not
> saying in either case that it *would* fail; only that it *could.*)
Realistically speaking the Fifth Amendment comes into play after a person
or his effects have been legally searched or seized.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:52:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dale Ward <daleaward@rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: GAZZA's Analysis of the Champions List
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Greetings,
---Rick Holding wrote:
>
> GAZZA wrote:
> > There's just one question I _HAVE_ to ask - how long has it been since
> > your last Great Linked Debate? :-)
>
> Not bloody long enough!!!
My question is... WHAT is a Great Linked Debate?!?!?
Dale A. Ward
[Did Somebody Say *BLOW UP* McDonald's?]
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
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From: "Marc Seebass" <kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net>
To: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com&>
"Champions Mailing List A" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 21:15:24 -0500
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-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff M. Reid <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Tuesday, May 12, 1998 8:17 PM
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
>> I think it's kinda funny how right-wing Republicans are so typically
>> held up as being the folks who would so definitely support such
>> registration, considering that it's left-wing Democrats who are the most
>> vocally in favor of restricting gun ownership rights, and it was a
>> left-wing Democrat who put Japanese-Americans into internment camps.
>
>I know what you mean. Speaking as a middle-of-the-road Democrat, I have to
>admit that the Republicans would probably be no more likely to encourage
>this sort of thing than anyone else. On the other hand, I'm not so sure
>that, as a group, they would be any less likely either. I always figured
>that the support and/or condemnation of "metahuman menace" laws would be
>more or less bipartisan, probably depending more on the actions of
>metahumans in the given campaign.
What's scarry is the Democrats would be the most likely to get away with it.
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 22:17:47 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>>But, this reason cannot apply to mutants, who can have _any_ power under the
>>sun. The use of mutant powers cannot de facto be assumed to be criminal in
>>nature.
>
> Essentially, *anything* can be assumed to be criminal in nature.
Well, that's true, but that's also why nations have constitutions (defined
by my dictionary as "the system of fundamental principles according to which
a nation, state, corporation, etc., is governed"); to prevent dumb laws from
standing up in court for very long. Yes, anything can be made legally
criminal. But you'd have to change the constitution in order to keep it
being criminal in the face of constitutional challenges; a VERY big deal. I
can't see it happening just so some government organization can have the
names and associated powers of various mutants (again, the "what good does
mutant registration alone do the public?" question rears its head).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"FORM BLAZIN' SHILLELAGH!"
-Vaultron Force, Gold Digger #38
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins and Ron Prins
jprins@interhop.net
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From: ErolB1 <ErolB1@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 22:34:02 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
In a message dated 98-05-12 18:31:37 EDT, voxel@theramp.net writes:
> A gun is constructed with one purpose: to injure or kill, whether it be
> humans, animals, or paper targets. Buying a gun and bullets is a
declaration
> of willingness to use it for this purpose; for example, if you buy a gun
> "for self defense", this is a statement that you are willing to put a
bullet
> in somebody. It's this implicit intent which makes firearms so touchy --
> society doesn't fear the gun, but the person who WANTS a gun. (To put it
> another way, we can correct the old saw by saying "Guns don't kill people,
> gun buyers kill people").
A nit: It's not "society" that fears, but only certain members of society.
Those who buy guns "for self defense" are generally not afraid of others doing
likewise. Otherwise I think you have a good point: Those who are touchy about
firearms see an implied threat in firearm ownership - to themselves or to
civilization-as-they-see-it. It seems to me that one big difference between
the pro- and anti-gun sides is that the anti side sees little difference
between a holstered handgun and one that's out and pointing at you: Both are
threats, in the anti eyes, and differ only degree. But the pro-gun side sees a
BIG difference: The first is viewed as no threat (or at the very least not
enough of a threat to justify either public or private violence in response),
while the second is something to take immediate and violent exception to.
Erol K. Bayburt
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 21:37:50 -0500
To: hero-l@sysabend.org
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: A Matter of Psychology
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
If the Internet is the information superhighway, are flame wars related to
road rage?
Damon
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 19:44:33 -0700
To: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Green People
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Back in December, when things on the list were going a bit more slowly
than they are now, I wrote out a long tirade about the mistreatment of
green people in the media. I've now lost that.
Did anyone keep that post, and still have it to send back to me?
(Preferably via direct email, though in light of the current discussion the
list might enjoy a reprise.) I know it's something that my sister-in-law
would get a kick out of (she loves those humorous things and keeps
forwarding them to my wife).
Thanks in advance to any who reply. :-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 21:50:51 -0500
To: hero-l@sysabend.org
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: A More Detailed Look at Impact Damage
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
A while back I described what seemed to me a logical extension of the
existing impact damage adjustments based on Move By and Move Through. The
existing rules are written for a head-on collision between a
character/vehicle/object of a given velocity, and an object presumed to be
stationary. A couple of supplements (including one not yet released) took
into account the possibility that the target was moving away from the
attacker, toward the attacker or along a transverse course at the time of
impact and adjusted the damage accordingly.
I described a further adjustment, which would allow a hex to be divided
into 12 segments of 30 degrees each and damage adjustments made for
collisions that were less than head-on or where a vehicle was rear-ended
while moving not-quite-directly away from the attacking vehicle.
Anyone who'd like to make use of this can find it at
http://www.txdirect.net/~griffin/velangle.htm
Enjoy.
Damon
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Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
To: hero-l@sysabend.org
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 22:53:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Matthew James Korth" <korthmat@pilot.msu.edu>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>>Who here has registered for the draft? If you haven't, you are a criminal.
>
>Not if you were born after 1974, I believe -- I seem to recall that I was in
>the last generation which had to register for Selective Service.
Not according to the Selective Service System website
(http://www.sss.gov/must.htm). According to them, almost all male US citizens
and legal aliens between the ages of 18 (born in 1980) and 25 (born in 1973),
inclusive, must register.
You might be remembering the last year that the President could actually use
the draft to induct people into the military. That was in 1973. The
requirement to register hasn't changed, though.
>Does anyone know, btw, if not registering with Selective Service is/was a
>/felony/?
Well, you can be imprisoned for up to 5 years, and fined up to $250000... I'd
say that qualifies as a felony. Plus, failure to register technically means
that one is ineligible for Federal student aid, job training programs, and
jobs, and possibly for US citizenship (for legal aliens that are required to
register). And some states have implemented penalties for failure to register
as well.
--
korthmat@pilot.msu.edu http://pilot.msu.edu/~korthmat
Charter Member of the Complaining Censorious Bastards Club
(this means I'll report any UCE I receive to the sender's ISP)
Member of the USENET Cabal (TINC!), BOFH-in-training
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Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
To: hero-l@sysabend.org
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 23:14:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Matthew James Korth" <korthmat@pilot.msu.edu>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>At 06:38 PM 5/12/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>Bob Greenwade writes:
>>
>>> the Fourth deals with unreasonable search and seizure, and the
>>> requirements of warrants.
>>
>>Yep. The Fourth is where "mutant registration" laws would be attacked.
>>The "unreasonable search and seizure" paraphrasing tends to restrict its
>>meaning to warrants and such. The full scope of the Fourth is much broader
>>than that. Any law that has the purpose of regulating the actions of a
>>person (citizen) based solely on his existence is an abrogration of his
>>Fourth Amendment right to the liberty of his person.
>
> The "equal protection" clause of the Fourteenth Amendement would also be
>a cause for appeal against this law. In fact, besides the cited conflicts
>with the Fourth, Fifth, and Fourteenth Amendments, there are probably a
>couple that we haven't even thought of yet.
I'm surprised that nobody's brought up the Ninth Amendment yet. :) Basically,
it says that just because the Constitution lists certain rights doesn't mean
there aren't others that the government must respect. A lot of privacy issues
(particularly with regard to personal information) could be (and are) covered
under that Amendment.
--
korthmat@pilot.msu.edu http://pilot.msu.edu/~korthmat
Charter Member of the Complaining Censorious Bastards Club
(this means I'll report any UCE I receive to the sender's ISP)
Member of the USENET Cabal (TINC!), BOFH-in-training
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 20:17:59 -0700
From: James Jandebeur <james@javaman.to>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: PBEM game
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Where is this, precisely? I'd like to take a look.
Hero Games wrote:
> It's an online game board where you can position your "miniatures" and game in
> real-time. Very cool.
>
> -- Steve Peterson, Hero Games
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 21:59:36 -0700
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com>
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com
Organization: None
To: "Champ's Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
CC: Bill Carone <wcarone@leland.stanford.edu>
Subject: Team Dodge
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Okay I love tinkering with team hooks. I just finished Team Dodge, a
super team sponsored by General Motors. I got this idea once when a
friend of mine (and you know who you are ;-)) told me that all the cool
names he'd thought up for Champions characters had been taken by the
auto industry. So here is team dodge
Ram (brick who runs fast)
Avenger (leader Brick/EP with lots of PR Skills; team leader)
Shadow (mutant Martial artist with Shadow/Teleportation/desolidification
powers)
Stealth (Martial Artist/Commando)
Cirrus (Mentalist)
Intrepid (Powered Armor/Scientist)
The team is based out of a GM building in Detroit and have a
multi-purpose vehicle called the CARAVAN. They were hand picked because
their powers and skills at least somewhat matched the names the company
had chosen. How they found these individuals is beyond me at this point.
They are generally popular with the public and make a lot of charity
appearances. They are autonomous in their heroing, but they do give
serious PR help to GM. Most Super teams dislike them for; among other
things, their trappings of wealth. High salaries, corporate image, PR
teams, etc..
Many hero and villain teams see them as something of a joke.
What do you guys think? Have Corporate sponsored hero/villain teams
popped up in your campaigns?
Views and other Dodge names appreciated........
Chad
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From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 01:17:54 EDT
To: james@javaman.to, champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Re: PBEM game
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
In a message dated 5/12/98 8:18:08 PM, james@javaman.to wrote:
>Where is this, precisely? I'd like to take a look.
>
>Hero Games wrote:
>
>> It's an online game board where you can position your "miniatures" and game
in
>> real-time. Very cool.
>>
It's at www.webrpg.com. They also have a very good online game 'zine and
message boards about all sorts of games.
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 22:20:06 -0700
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com>
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com
Organization: None
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Quotes at top (was RE: The Ultimate Quote)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
happyelf wrote:
> ----------
> > From: Tim R. Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
> > To:
> > Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
> > Subject: Re: Quotes at top (was RE: The Ultimate Quote)
> > Date: Tuesday, May 12, 1998 2:36 AM
> >
> >
> > > The more I am exposed to Micro$oft products, the more I like my
> Macintosh.
> > >
> > > Microsoft: Where do you want to go today?
> > >
> > > Macintosh: Where do you want to be _tomorrow_?
> >
> > Unix: Do you actually want to get there?
> >
> >
>
> os2: why not go here instead?
Tandy: "Where are we going?"
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 05:47:55 +0000
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
To: "Champ's Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Team Dodge
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Chad Riley wrote:
> Ram (brick who runs fast)
> Avenger (leader Brick/EP with lots of PR Skills; team leader)
> Shadow (mutant Martial artist with Shadow/Teleportation/
> desolidification powers)
> Stealth (Martial Artist/Commando)
> Cirrus (Mentalist)
> Intrepid (Powered Armor/Scientist)
>
> Views and other Dodge names appreciated........
What!? No Dart! Who could not include the Dodge Vegamatic!
Actually, Champions has already used both Dart and Charger.
Other names of Dodges:
Viper, Stratus, Neon, Dakota, Durango, Diplomat, and the La Femme.
A quick check of Yahoo, got those. I think Stratus, Neon, and Diplomat would
work well. La Femme wouldn't work for the corporate since they only produced
300-1000 in the 50's, but it was a good name...
-Mark Lemming
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 00:55:30 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: pod@avalon.net
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net>
Subject: Gadget
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Ok, while sitting around at work tonight, I came up
an idea for one of the followers of one of my PC's. The guy
is basically a gadgeteer that is driven to create tech
that can help prevent or stop crime.
I recently saw the movie "The big Hit" (very funny). In
it, thye had this delightful item called the Buster 2000. The
idea behind it is that it can trace a call, but cab be also be
blocked by the same tech.
So my question is this, how would anyone go about
creating such an item?
Mindscan?
Lightning Calculator?
Radio Transmit/Receive?
Discriminatory Sense?
Some obscure Science skill?
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From: Miq Millman <miq@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Team Dodge
To: chadriley01@sprynet.com
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 23:00:17 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org, wcarone@leland.stanford.edu
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Why is it sponsored by GM? The obvious choice is Chrysler
--
__
Miq Millman miq@teleport.com
Tualatin, OR
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Reply-To: <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: GAZZA's Analysis of the Champions List
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 23:06:31 -0700
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> From: Dale Ward
>
>
<snip>
> My question is... WHAT is a Great Linked Debate?!?!?
>
The Great Linked Debate was a long, drawn out, acrimonious discussion on Linked, which
tended towards two major camps:
1. When you take Linked on the lesser of two powers, the lesser can only be used with the
greater, but the greater of the two can be used independently.
2. When you take Linked on the lesser of two powers, the two must be used together;
neither can be used separately.
Personally, I was of the camp that if both were limited, it should be -1/2, but if only
one was limited, it should be -1/4.
There was more to it than that, but that was the core of the Debate.
Filksinger
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From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Team Dodge
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 02:19:57 -0400 (EDT)
Organization: VTSFFC
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> Why is it sponsored by GM? The obvious choice is Chrysler
I think you mean Mercedes-Benz. :-)
Daniel Pawtowski
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From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: GAZZA's Analysis of the Champions List
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 02:22:52 -0400 (EDT)
Organization: VTSFFC
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>
> There was more to it than that, but that was the core of the Debate.
>
I've also seen it branch of into the meaning of "Attack Roll" and
somesuch. Usually along the lines of "If you can fire two linked
attacks together with one roll, then why can't you fire two unlinked
powers together?"
Daniel "Linked to my keyboard" Pawtowski
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 00:24:32 -0700
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com>
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com
Organization: None
To: "Champ's Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Team Dodge
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Mark Lemming wrote:
> Viper, Stratus, Neon, Dakota, Durango, Diplomat, and the La Femme.
>
> A quick check of Yahoo, got those. I think Stratus, Neon, and Diplomat would
> work well. La Femme wouldn't work for the corporate since they only produced
> 300-1000 in the 50's, but it was a good name...
>
> -Mark Lemming
I cannot believe I forgot Viper!! or Prowler For that Matter......Oh well Back
to the drawing board this is gonna be a big team of sleek skulkers......
-Chad
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 03:27:06 -0500
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 09:57 AM 5/13/98 EDT, Leah L Watts wrote:
>IIRC, it (they? after the original Megan's Law, more states have been
>passing them) requires convicted sex offenders to keep the police
>informed where they live, and also gives that information to the person's
>neighbors. It was named after a little girl raped and murdered by a sex
>offender who had been released from prison.
Yup, that's the one.
>I could see a form of Megan's Law that required superpowered criminals to
>stay in touch with police after release. Since (still IIRC) Megan's Law
>has been ruled constitutional, this modified version should get by the
>courts -- assuming your game world doesn't have the ability to "cure"
>mutants or paranormals.
I agree -- a metahuman "Megan's Law" would be more practical and easier to
implement and enforce than a full-blown "registration act".
--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
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Reply-To: "Scott R.C. Smith" <srcsmith@frontiernet.net>
From: "Scott R.C. Smith" <srcsmith@frontiernet.net>
To: <chadriley01@sprynet.com&> "Champ's Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Cc: "Bill Carone" <wcarone@leland.stanford.edu>
Subject: Corp Teams (Was: Re: Team Dodge)
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 08:20:08 -0400
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We had two. One was actually run by The New York State Tourism
Bureau, and was named Excelcior. Team Description:
GROUP: Excelcior
CHARTER MEMBERS: The Metropolitain (Commander), Jet, Buffalo Bill,
Giant, Yankee
OTHER MEMBERS: None
CURRENT MEMBERS: None
HISTORY: Half hero team and half publicity stunt, Excelcior operated
out of Albany, New York. They spent more time doing tourism
commercials, public appearances, and political endorsements
than fighting crime. The final nail in the coffin was the
revelation that only one of the heroes was actually from New York.
STATUS: Defunct
The other was sponsored by the Rochester, New York Business Council,
and consisted of Captain Kodak, his sidekick The Xerox Kid, Lilac,
Ray-Ban, and Red Wing. The team was named (by popular vote, ballots
available everywhere) The Flower City Five.
(Rochester is world headquarters of Kodak and Bausch & Lomb, as well
as four enormous Xerox complexs. and we're known as the Flower City,
mostly for our Lilacs, including the internationally-attended annual
Lilac Festival. Our AAA Baseball farm team, sponsored by the
Baltimore Oriels, is the Red Wings.)
They were constantly in the way of Rochesters other team, The
Crusaders, and were often tapped for public appearances and to provide
corporate security for the corps who funded them. After they
disbanded, Lilac joined the Crusaders, the rest were never heard from
again (at least under those names).
-S-
Scott R.C. Smith
srcsmith@frontiernet.net
Website: Starburst Headquarters
(http://www.frontiernet.net/~srcsmith)
Member of the Hall Of Justice Webring
-----Original Message-----
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com>
To: Champ's Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Cc: Bill Carone <wcarone@leland.stanford.edu>
Date: Wednesday, May 13, 1998 1:05 AM
Subject: Team Dodge
>Okay I love tinkering with team hooks. I just finished Team Dodge, a
>super team sponsored by General Motors. I got this idea once when a
>friend of mine (and you know who you are ;-)) told me that all the
cool
>names he'd thought up for Champions characters had been taken by the
>auto industry. So here is team dodge
>
>Ram (brick who runs fast)
>Avenger (leader Brick/EP with lots of PR Skills; team leader)
>Shadow (mutant Martial artist with
Shadow/Teleportation/desolidification
>powers)
>Stealth (Martial Artist/Commando)
>Cirrus (Mentalist)
>Intrepid (Powered Armor/Scientist)
>
> The team is based out of a GM building in Detroit and have a
>multi-purpose vehicle called the CARAVAN. They were hand picked
because
>their powers and skills at least somewhat matched the names the
company
>had chosen. How they found these individuals is beyond me at this
point.
>
> They are generally popular with the public and make a lot of
charity
>appearances. They are autonomous in their heroing, but they do give
>serious PR help to GM. Most Super teams dislike them for; among other
>things, their trappings of wealth. High salaries, corporate image, PR
>teams, etc..
> Many hero and villain teams see them as something of a joke.
>
>
>What do you guys think? Have Corporate sponsored hero/villain teams
>popped up in your campaigns?
>
>
>Views and other Dodge names appreciated........
>
>
>Chad
>
>
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Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 22:58:41 +1000
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> Very true! Just look at how they are treating Israel today!
> Conservatives are portrayed by the liberals (who control
> most of the media) as being anti-freedom, as being
> bigots, etc, when the facts tend to point at things being the
> other way around! Remember, the big left wing liberal
> societies of this century are: Communist Russia, Red China
> and Nazi Germany (NAZI = National Socialist Workers Party).
>
hmm, i dunno about that, but the liberal party in australia is
actually conservvative. . . .it kinda predates modern use of the word.
And down here, the conservaties run the media, bash young people
(physically if you happened to attend a particular 17th-birthday party
down south recently) and generally ride roughshod. Frankly none of the
societies you mention are liberal as the word is used in america: Red china
is an authoritarian olicarchy, the ussr was a militocracy(albeit with
certain
posts being intelligence or party instead) and the nazi party was violently
ANTI-communist and strongly heirachical.
> Makes you think!
>
> Nice game material for a "secret plot" going on! ^_^;
> Heroes know NPC who works for government, he finds out
> something, "commits suicide" like Foster, etc....
>
> ^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;
> "No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"
> - Joan of Arc's .sig
> Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com
>
>
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Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: "Champs" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 23:12:56 +1000
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----------
> From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
> To: Champs <champ-l@sysabend.org>
> Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
> Date: Wednesday, May 13, 1998 10:11 AM
>
> On Mon, 11 May 1998, Robert wrote:
>
> > Not all black people are born with the ability to level mountains with
a
> > thought or produce flames from their hands at the age of 13.
>
> In fact, the percentage of black people born with such abilities is
> surprisingly low.
>
ha! you science-guys can use statistics to 'prove' anything! *lol*
next you'll be telling us feminists don't live in burrows *snort*
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
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From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 09:57:18 EDT
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>>Incentives for joining AMPERSAT:
<snip>
>>Containment devices...do you have a power thats hard to control
sometimes?
>
>Crapshoot. This falls in with what Bryce mentioned about being able to
cure
>vulnerabilities. Professor X is an expert who's devoted his whole life
to
>"mutantology", and he hasn't to date been able to do a damn thing to
help
>Rogue control her power, except maybe recommend a good tailor for those
>full-body outfits.
I dropped the X-Titles a while back, but I was getting the impression
that one could buy mutant-power blockers at Radio Shack in the Marvel
Universe. :) If they've cleaned things up a bit, fine; but considering
how common those things were I could never figure out why Rogue didn't
just wear one with the "on/off" switch in easy reach.
Leah
_____________________________________________________________________
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
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From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 09:57:19 EDT
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>>I think it's important to remember that any use of a super power in the
>>commission of a crime /would/ probably activate that whole "aggravated"
>>business. Beyond that, and maybe some sort of Megan's Law corollary,
good
>>luck getting anything else passed.
>
> I'm drawing a blank on what Megan's Law is.
IIRC, it (they? after the original Megan's Law, more states have been
passing them) requires convicted sex offenders to keep the police
informed where they live, and also gives that information to the person's
neighbors. It was named after a little girl raped and murdered by a sex
offender who had been released from prison.
I could see a form of Megan's Law that required superpowered criminals to
stay in touch with police after release. Since (still IIRC) Megan's Law
has been ruled constitutional, this modified version should get by the
courts -- assuming your game world doesn't have the ability to "cure"
mutants or paranormals.
Leah
_____________________________________________________________________
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 10:23:06 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Champions artists
Cc: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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I'm just curious if anybody has any favorites among the artists who have
illustrated the various Champs books over the years. I'm bringing this up
because I've recently noticed that Storn Cook's art usually stands out to
me. I think what I like is that he draws the characters in action poses
rather than just standing around.... Most of the enemies books I have just
have the villains standing around smiling for the "camera", but he often
has them jumping through the air, blasting at some target "off-screen" (oy,
am I from the TV generation!). Anyway, I guess I just wanted to point out
that Cook's art is usually more exciting to look at, and maybe put my vote
in to the powers that be so that they'll continue to use his stuff (I know
he did the cover for San Angelo, but dunno if he did the interior).
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 10:23:16 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: It lives: Supplement Reviews
Cc: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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It's me again, with some more supplements that I'd appreciate reviews on.
This one is simple...only two books on the list.
* Heroic Adventures, Volume 1
* Heroic Adventures, Volume 2
I almost bought Volume 1 yesterday, but decided to wait and get some
thoughts on it first. The adventures seemed a bit more imaginative than
usual, but then I just kinda skimmed the intro paragraphs to each. I
didn't look as closely at Volume 2, since I saw it was intended for Dark
Champions and I'm more of a 4-color guy (although I'm curious to take a
look at Dark Champions...it's on my list of books to scarf up before they
are gone forever--not high on the list, but it's there). Anyway, thanks
for any recommendations you can give me on these books!
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From: "Andreano, Keith HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com>
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Team Dodge
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 09:23:26 -0500
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>What do you guys think? Have Corporate sponsored hero/villain
teams
>popped up in your campaigns?
Fits right into my game world. Most hero teams are privately
sponsored in my game. Private donations, citizens groups,
an companies looking for good PR that's a tax write off! ^_^;
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;
"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"
- Joan of Arc's .sig
Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: RE: A Matter of Law
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 10:43:36 -0400
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Wednesday, May 13, 1998 9:57 AM, llwatts@juno.com [SMTP:llwatts@juno.com]
wrote:
> I dropped the X-Titles a while back, but I was getting the impression
> that one could buy mutant-power blockers at Radio Shack in the Marvel
> Universe. :) If they've cleaned things up a bit, fine; but considering
> how common those things were I could never figure out why Rogue didn't
> just wear one with the "on/off" switch in easy reach.
>
> Leah
Probably the same reason that Spiderman, who's been around forever can beat
the crap out of Firelord, but still gets beat up by some schmuck with a net
and a hunting rifle, and who, according to one of my friends who reads it,
_still_ goes: "My spider-sense is tingling. I wonder what *whack*", yet is
able to dodge machinegun fire via this same spider-sense.
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 23:03:04 +0800
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au>
Reply-To: gazza@wantree.com.au
Organization: Only One Inc.
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: END: Running out of it
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> In my experience, it's fairly uncommon for a fight to go on so long that
> the heroes are in danger of running out of Endurance. Is it the same for
> your games, or are my players buying too much Endurance to begin with?
> They normally have 40-50 END. The only time I think my players have been
> low on END is when they push their attacks several phases in a row, or if
> they happen to have some power which costs lots of extra END to use.
Hmm.
I find that somewhat unusual. END is usually a fairly big factor
in my games. Either OurHeroes(tm) are up against a large group of
agents, in which case the fight (taking a fairly long time) will
sap END - or else they're up against a BigBaddie(c) in which case
their END tends to be low from either frequent Pushing or the
old "END=STUN when you come round from unconsciousness) schtick.
Have your PCs got generally low SPD, or lots of Reduced END powers?
Typical SPD IMC is usually around 5; with 60 AP attacks that means
they're going through 30 END/Turn if all they do is fire off
attacks (more if their defenses or movement cost END). Of course,
no-one is forcing them to attack at full strength, and they can
always take a recovery, but it sounds as if many of your battles
aren't lasting a full Turn.
I suppose it's personal taste, but I don't think that's long enough.
Another possibility that occurs to me is that you have a lot of
brick-type PCs. These guys tend to have lots of END and (more
importantly) lots of REC, combined with a low SPD. Your vanilla
brick, in my experience, is unlikely to collapse from exhaustion.
> In a related question, I usually don't keep track of END for my villains,
> 'cause I have enough to worry about. Do you think this is a mistake on my
> part?
Not at all - I go one step further and don't bother to do
recoveries for unconscious villains. If the players complain that
the villain never runs out of END, start buying them all with
0 END powers or Charges.
--
GAZZA (gazza@wantree.com.au; http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza)
"To know others is wisdom. To know oneself is enlightment."
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 08:43:42 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Champions artists
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 02:40 PM 5/13/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Champions artists
>Cc: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
>
>I'm just curious if anybody has any favorites among the artists who have
>illustrated the various Champs books over the years. I'm bringing this up
>because I've recently noticed that Storn Cook's art usually stands out to
>me. I think what I like is that he draws the characters in action poses
>rather than just standing around.... Most of the enemies books I have just
>have the villains standing around smiling for the "camera", but he often
>has them jumping through the air, blasting at some target "off-screen" (oy,
>am I from the TV generation!). Anyway, I guess I just wanted to point out
>that Cook's art is usually more exciting to look at, and maybe put my vote
>in to the powers that be so that they'll continue to use his stuff (I know
>he did the cover for San Angelo, but dunno if he did the interior).
The only other Hero System author that has really stood out to my eye is
Scott Ruggels. His drawings of vehicles and equipment are good enough that
I've asked to have him as the artist for TUSV. (Whether that actually
materializes remains to be seen, and depends on how busy he is.)
For character art, I actually prefer something between all-action and
just standing around. I prefer something that the GM can show the players
the first time the PCs encounter the NPCs, and say little more than, "This
is what you see." Most if not all of Storn's work (including the action
poses) meets that criterion; however, some other past artwork has shown
something that shouldn't be shown in such a case, such as a Power whose use
early on would be unlikely, or (in the case of a couple of the Flashmen)
civilian ID faces.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 08:46:55 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 09:47 PM 5/12/1998 EDT, ErolB1 wrote:
>In a message dated 98-05-12 18:30:45 EDT, voxel@theramp.net writes:
>
>> I've always thought American legislation would be a lot less potentially
>> despotic if the doctrine were established that laws can be declared
>> unconstitutional for violating the preamble, i.e. that Congress can only
>> make laws that obviously pertain to one of the purposes outlined within
>> /and/ did not countermand any of those purposes. Just a stray thought.
>
>I though that that's what the 10th Amendment (in the Bill of Rights) was for:
>"The Powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor
>prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively,
or to
>the people."
This is perhaps the most-ignored provision of the US Constitution.
>Someone once suggested that every bill Congress passed should have a cite to
>the Constitution showing the section that gave Congress the power to pass
that
>law. Senator John Glenn commented that this would bring Congress to a
>screeching halt, since 90% of what Congress did couldn't be so justified.
I agree with this suggestion.
Any idea whether Sen. Glenn considered this a good thing or a bad thing?
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 09:03:42 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Gadget
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 12:55 AM 5/13/1998 -0500, Palace of Dwarves wrote:
>
> Ok, while sitting around at work tonight, I came up
>an idea for one of the followers of one of my PC's. The guy
>is basically a gadgeteer that is driven to create tech
>that can help prevent or stop crime.
> I recently saw the movie "The big Hit" (very funny). In
>it, thye had this delightful item called the Buster 2000. The
>idea behind it is that it can trace a call, but cab be also be
>blocked by the same tech.
> So my question is this, how would anyone go about
>creating such an item?
> Mindscan?
> Lightning Calculator?
> Radio Transmit/Receive?
> Discriminatory Sense?
> Some obscure Science skill?
Just thinking offhand, I think I'd go with either Mindscan (searching
for the calling telephone) or Telepathy (to read the phone company's
computer), with appropriate Limitations.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 09:06:27 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Quotes at top (was RE: The Ultimate Quote)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 10:20 PM 5/12/1998 -0700, Chad Riley wrote:
>happyelf wrote:
>> > From: Tim R. Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
>> > > The more I am exposed to Micro$oft products, the more I like my
>> Macintosh.
>> > >
>> > > Microsoft: Where do you want to go today?
>> > >
>> > > Macintosh: Where do you want to be _tomorrow_?
>> >
>> > Unix: Do you actually want to get there?
>>
>> os2: why not go here instead?
>
> Tandy: "Where are we going?"
CP/M: "Oh... we were going somewhere?"
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 09:25:16 -0700
To: "Champ's Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Team Dodge
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 09:59 PM 5/12/1998 -0700, Chad Riley wrote:
>Okay I love tinkering with team hooks. I just finished Team Dodge, a
>super team sponsored by General Motors. I got this idea once when a
>friend of mine (and you know who you are ;-)) told me that all the cool
>names he'd thought up for Champions characters had been taken by the
>auto industry. So here is team dodge
Interestingly, my first thought when I saw the Subject header was for
some method of enabling an entire team to dodge an attack in unison...
>What do you guys think? Have Corporate sponsored hero/villain teams
>popped up in your campaigns?
There are a few Corporate-sponsored teams in the published CU, including
the Cyberknights, Cy-Force, and MACE. It's something I've seen in comics
as well (as with Force Works), giving something of an explanation as to how
the team can afford all this mega-expensive super-high-tech crimefighting
equipment.
I do have one homegrown NPC corporate hero team, Second Authority (who
will be appearing in what I am now calling Cascade Champions). I have them
open to a variety of uses, depending on what direction the PCs take....
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 13:18:39 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> I disagree completely here. Is it truly your wish to assert that innate
> abilitiesare more dangerous than 'assisted' (ie technological) abilities? That a
>
> beam toting metahuman is more dangerous than a psycho with a AK-47?
<much cut>
> That would depend, of course. If people's first exposure to metahumanitywas Dr
> Destroyer charbroiling the President, I'm inclined to acknowledge
> that (at least until 'cooler heads prevailed') there could well be some
> rather draconian laws passed. On the other hand, if the first exposure
> was MonkeyMan swinging from tree to tree saving little old ladies cats,
> I doubt that too many people would be calling for registration to protect
> them from MM's awesome strength.
This debate is absolutely wonderful, simply because it is probably
very close to the debate that would rage were this to be occurring in a
game world. There would be these types of arguents over any type of
mutant or super affecting act.
Is someone logging all of this, I haven't been, and want to keep a
copy.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 13:23:05 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: A Matter of Law
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> Then your lucky if you don't have a government that's constantly
> looking for ways to curtail personal freedoms. The Democratic
> party in the U.S. is starting to get a scary similarity to ones in
> communist countries. "Do what we say or else!" should be
Excuse me? Sounds like a bit of Republican-inspired thought. A
more evenheaded and sane view will tell you that both major parties are
quite willing to curtail personal freedoms.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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From: Kane476323 <Kane476323@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:27:16 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Champions artists
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
PATRICK ZIRCHER he did much of the early champs books and nearly 80% of the
old V+V art. he current frelances for both marvel and dc. I thought he had a
great action art style.
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:03:27 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: END: Running out of it
Cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by INTERNET:gazza@wantree.com.au
>Have your PCs got generally low SPD, or lots of Reduced END powers?
Typical SPD IMC is usually around 5; with 60 AP attacks that means
they're going through 30 END/Turn if all they do is fire off
attacks (more if their defenses or movement cost END). Of course,
no-one is forcing them to attack at full strength, and they can
always take a recovery, but it sounds as if many of your battles
aren't lasting a full Turn.<
I'd say 1.5 Turns is a fairly typical combat in my games. However, I
should say that lately I don't think I've been challenging the PCs
enough...too many agents and not enough supervillains. It's been too long
since they lost a battle, or were even in fear of losing a battle.
>Not at all - I go one step further and don't bother to do
recoveries for unconscious villains. If the players complain that
the villain never runs out of END, start buying them all with
0 END powers or Charges.<
I do that as well.... If a villain goes unconscious, I generally consider
him out of the combat--sometimes, if he's just barely out, I'll let him
wake up and make a break for it. I had great fun with Feur (of Terror Inc)
once, because he faked being out and just took recoveries until he was at
full strength (I think his write-up says that this is a common strategy for
him)...the players ignored him and went after the other members, so they
were banged up and here comes Feur, fresh and ready for a second round.
Anyway, I don't think my players know that I don't track END.... It never
occurs to them, since their PCs never run out of END either.
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:03:52 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Champions artists
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade
> The only other Hero System author that has really stood out to my eye
is
Scott Ruggels. His drawings of vehicles and equipment are good enough that
I've asked to have him as the artist for TUSV. (Whether that actually
materializes remains to be seen, and depends on how busy he is.)<
I don't recognize Ruggels' name, but I'll keep an eye out for it. Did he
do the vehicles and equipment in the Viper book?
> For character art, I actually prefer something between all-action and
just standing around. I prefer something that the GM can show the players
the first time the PCs encounter the NPCs, and say little more than, "This
is what you see." Most if not all of Storn's work (including the action
poses) meets that criterion; however, some other past artwork has shown
something that shouldn't be shown in such a case, such as a Power whose use
early on would be unlikely, or (in the case of a couple of the Flashmen)
civilian ID faces.<
It's true that some villain art gives away information that the player
shouldn't know. One of my players in particular loves to see a picture of
who he's fighting, and sometimes I just tell him he can't see it until
later because it is too revealing (for instance, a glowing halo around
someone's head would tell the players that they face a mentalist). This
isn't practical in an enemies book where each character gets one page, but
I like to see more than one picture of each character. I love it when they
mix scenes involving published heroes with the text, because then you have
more than one reference to the character's look...plus, it helps make that
character feel ingrained in the gameworld.
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 13:08:43 -0700 (PDT)
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net>
Subject: Problems with Hero 4th edition
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
With the introduction of Fuzion and the upcoming 5th edition I've become
curious as to what other think are some of the problems with Hero. I don't
mean things like the great linked debate or strength costs. Those have been
hashed out endlessly but other problems that aren't matters of
interpretation. To get the ball rolling:
Combat speed:From the Fuzion list I've heard this put up as problem. I
persoanlly haven't seen Fuzion combat as being much faster with the Speed
chart but I seem to be in a minority.
Messing with the system:Hero 4th has "dials and switches" they just aren't
as laid out as in Fuzion. This seems to create the idea that Hero isn't as
flexible.
More examples:I'm a firm beleiver that with Hero you can create just about
anything. But the way to get there can be daunting. More examples and
"prepackaged" abilites (spells,gadgets,etc) could make it easier for new
players.
I know violence doesn't solve all problems...
But it sure feels good!
Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Team Dodge
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 13 May 1998 16:41:57 -0400
Lines: 35
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Chad Riley writes:
> Okay I love tinkering with team hooks. I just finished Team Dodge, a
> super team sponsored by General Motors.
YM Chrysler. HTH.
> Ram (brick who runs fast)
> Avenger (leader Brick/EP with lots of PR Skills; team leader)
> Shadow (mutant Martial artist with Shadow/Teleportation/desolidification
> powers)
> Stealth (Martial Artist/Commando)
> Cirrus (Mentalist)
> Intrepid (Powered Armor/Scientist)
Shame on you for ignoring Neon, the greatest thing to come out of
Chrysler's Bellvue plant in a long time!
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
\
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 14:07:27 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Champions artists
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 08:29 PM 5/13/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Re: Champions artists
>Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
>
>Message text written by Bob Greenwade
>> The only other Hero System author that has really stood out to my eyeis
>Scott Ruggels. His drawings of vehicles and equipment are good enough that
>I've asked to have him as the artist for TUSV. (Whether that actually
>materializes remains to be seen, and depends on how busy he is.)<
>
>I don't recognize Ruggels' name, but I'll keep an eye out for it. Did he
>do the vehicles and equipment in the Viper book?
Checking the credits there, no, the interior illos in the VIPER
sourcebook were done by Storn Cook and Greg Smith. The best examples of
Scott's work are in Hero System Almanac 2 (especially the UNTIL section)
and Enemies Assemble (most impressive with the Factor 7 vehicles,
Exo-Skeleton Man, and SuperCharger).
>> For character art, I actually prefer something between all-action and
>just standing around. I prefer something that the GM can show the players
>the first time the PCs encounter the NPCs, and say little more than, "This
>is what you see." Most if not all of Storn's work (including the action
>poses) meets that criterion; however, some other past artwork has shown
>something that shouldn't be shown in such a case, such as a Power whose use
>early on would be unlikely, or (in the case of a couple of the Flashmen)
>civilian ID faces.<
>
>It's true that some villain art gives away information that the player
>shouldn't know. One of my players in particular loves to see a picture of
>who he's fighting, and sometimes I just tell him he can't see it until
>later because it is too revealing (for instance, a glowing halo around
>someone's head would tell the players that they face a mentalist). This
>isn't practical in an enemies book where each character gets one page, but
>I like to see more than one picture of each character. I love it when they
>mix scenes involving published heroes with the text, because then you have
>more than one reference to the character's look...plus, it helps make that
>character feel ingrained in the gameworld.
Hey folks, are David and I the only ones with this problem concerning
published characters (the illos are great but we can't show them because
they reveal too much information)?
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 17:14:30 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Problems with Hero 4th edition
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by Kim Foster
>Combat speed:From the Fuzion list I've heard this put up as problem. I
persoanlly haven't seen Fuzion combat as being much faster with the Speed
chart but I seem to be in a minority. <
Combat speed was never a problem for me in H4, until I started to think
back on my earlier gaming days (AD&D, etc) and realized how much we could
get done in a session, and how little we seem to get done in an H4 session.
I've always liked the micromanagement in H4 combat, though, which is why I
can't decide if I would prefer faster combats so the campaign advances more
quickly, or slower combats where I have more to think about and thus more
options. I'm the one, by the way, who stirred up the threads on the Fuzion
list asking how people consider Fuzion to be better than HSR in ways other
than speed of combat resolution.
>Messing with the system:Hero 4th has "dials and switches" they just aren't
as laid out as in Fuzion. This seems to create the idea that Hero isn't as
flexible. <
I agree here. The "dials and switches" thing is not a new idea, but it is
just made more explicit in Fuzion. The page in the BBB which lists average
campaign numbers (60 active points, etc) is essentially a dial and/or
switch for H4.
>More examples:I'm a firm beleiver that with Hero you can create just about
anything. But the way to get there can be daunting. More examples and
"prepackaged" abilites (spells,gadgets,etc) could make it easier for new
players. <
More examples are definitely needed, and I understand that this is one of
the major reasons why they are doing a 5th edition in the first place.
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From: "Andreano, Keith HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com>
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Losing Battles (WAS RE: END: Running out of it)
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:34:11 -0500
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>I'd say 1.5 Turns is a fairly typical combat in my games. However, I
>should say that lately I don't think I've been challenging the PCs
>enough...too many agents and not enough supervillains. It's been too
long
>since they lost a battle, or were even in fear of losing a battle.
This brings up an interesting point. How often in your games do the
heroes loose a battle. More importantly, why do they survive after?
If the villains defeat the heroes, what stops them from just killing
them.
Forget the "it's not 4 color excuse". ^_^; There should be a better
reason the PCs don't end up in a body bag the first time they lose
a combat with villains. I personally think this is an important point
that should be made in a campaign. It's easy to suspend disbelief
as far as super powers go, but having the villains not kill the heroes
when they have the chance "just because it's not 4 color" is going
to far (IMHO). What is everyone's take on this? Flame away! ^_^;
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;
"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"
- Joan of Arc's .sig
Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 17:17:40 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: "Champ's Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Team Dodge
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> Okay I love tinkering with team hooks. I just finished Team Dodge, a
> super team sponsored by General Motors. I got this idea once when a
> friend of mine (and you know who you are ;-)) told me that all the cool
> names he'd thought up for Champions characters had been taken by the
> auto industry. So here is team dodge
Only problem is that Dodge is a Chrysler nameplate, not a GM
nameplate. (And Chrysler just got bought out by Benz, so . . .)
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 22:18:55 +0000
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Losing Battles (WAS RE: END: Running out of it)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Andreano, Keith HIM,VA wrote:
>
> This brings up an interesting point. How often in your games do the
> heroes loose a battle. More importantly, why do they survive after?
> If the villains defeat the heroes, what stops them from just killing
> them.
> Forget the "it's not 4 color excuse". ^_^; There should be a better
> reason the PCs don't end up in a body bag the first time they lose
> a combat with villains. I personally think this is an important point
> that should be made in a campaign. It's easy to suspend disbelief
> as far as super powers go, but having the villains not kill the heroes
> when they have the chance "just because it's not 4 color" is going
> to far (IMHO). What is everyone's take on this? Flame away! ^_^;
I've swayed back and forth on the percentage of battles the heroes win. From
about 5% to 95% depending on the current campaign.
Various Reasons for not just killing the Heroes:
1. The villain is just not a cold blooded killer.
2. If the villain kills the hero, then the chance of the villain
surviving other fights goes down.
3. No time. Other heroes on the way, etc...
4. Wants to study the hero instead.
This is a very short list. There are lots of other reasons.
-Mark
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 18:23:34 -0400
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Losing Battles (WAS RE: END: Running out of it)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>This brings up an interesting point. How often in your games do the
>heroes loose a battle. More importantly, why do they survive after?
>If the villains defeat the heroes, what stops them from just killing
>them.
>Forget the "it's not 4 color excuse". ^_^; There should be a better
Sorry ... That's basically it.
That, and we just don't want to have to generate new characters every
time we lose a fight.
We actually don't lose that often in our games. When we do, it's
usually because the GM wants us captured to continue the story elsewhere.
In most cases, the bad guy simply gets away. (Whole 'nother thread.)
====================== =================================================
Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
====================== =================================================
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 17:31:21 -0500
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net>
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Losing Battles (WAS RE: END: Running out of it)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Andreano, Keith HIM,VA wrote:
>
> This brings up an interesting point. How often in your games do the
> heroes loose a battle. More importantly, why do they survive after?
> If the villains defeat the heroes, what stops them from just killing
> them.
Actually, there's a very simple reason for (most) villians not killing
the heroes when they have them at their mercy.
Self preservation.
If word gets out that you killed an unconscious hero, what are YOUR
chances of survival the next time YOU lose a battle? Sure, MOST heroes
wouldnt kill you, but SOME will.. and you never know who you'll be
fighting tomorrow.
If either side ups the stakes to life or death, then the other side is
bound to retaliate in kind, and NEITHER side wants that to happen.
This same arguement also explains why (most) villians in my campaign
tend to not use killing attacks vs heroes who obviously have little or
no resistant defenses. They know that if they kill a hero, the rest of
the heroes will be taking off the kid gloves.
Of course, there are ALWAYS exceptions to the above. Some villians just
don't care.
Todd
--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Todd Hanson Minnesota: Land of two seasons:
BadTodd@dacmail.net winter is coming, winter is here.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:34:33 -0700 (PDT)
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To: "Andreano, Keith HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com>
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net>
Subject: Re: Losing Battles (WAS RE: END: Running out of it)
Cc: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 04:34 PM 5/13/98 -0500, Andreano, Keith HIM,VA wrote:
>
>>I'd say 1.5 Turns is a fairly typical combat in my games. However, I
>>should say that lately I don't think I've been challenging the PCs
>>enough...too many agents and not enough supervillains. It's been too
>long
>>since they lost a battle, or were even in fear of losing a battle.
>
>This brings up an interesting point. How often in your games do the
>heroes loose a battle. More importantly, why do they survive after?
>If the villains defeat the heroes, what stops them from just killing
>them.
>Forget the "it's not 4 color excuse". ^_^; There should be a better
>reason the PCs don't end up in a body bag the first time they lose
>a combat with villains. I personally think this is an important point
>that should be made in a campaign. It's easy to suspend disbelief
>as far as super powers go, but having the villains not kill the heroes
>when they have the chance "just because it's not 4 color" is going
>to far (IMHO). What is everyone's take on this? Flame away! ^_^;
1. Most of the villains in my games have been more interested in attaining
some goal than killing the hero nessacarily. Either they had other things to
do or ran out of time to go around snuffing the unconcious. Also I tend to
think "realistically" a character doesn't have a damage meter above his
head. If Capt Fantastic is knocked threw 8 parked cars into a brick wall and
slumps to the ground, one might assume he's dead.
2. Some villains just aren't that blood thirsty as well. And killing a super
might be like killing a cop. Not always hard but never a good idea. You get
the rest of the super community really pissed at you and perhaps a team of
vengence minded paranormals on your case in big way.
3. Its not as fun. "These guys are wimps. If I kill them I don't get the joy
of making them suffer again and again". Or they won't be there to witness
the villian's ultimate triumph, etc etc etc..../
4. Sometimes heroes get lucky. Primus shows up or something similar....
I know violence doesn't solve all problems...
But it sure feels good!
Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:40:30 -0700
To: "Andreano, Keith HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com&>
"'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Losing Battles (WAS RE: END: Running out of it)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 04:34 PM 5/13/98 -0500, Andreano, Keith HIM,VA wrote:
>
>>I'd say 1.5 Turns is a fairly typical combat in my games. However, I
>>should say that lately I don't think I've been challenging the PCs
>>enough...too many agents and not enough supervillains. It's been too
>long
>>since they lost a battle, or were even in fear of losing a battle.
>
>This brings up an interesting point. How often in your games do the
>heroes loose a battle. More importantly, why do they survive after?
>If the villains defeat the heroes, what stops them from just killing
>them.
A lot of times, the villains simply aren't murderers. You can be a criminal
without being a cold-blooded killer, after all. Even if you're willing to
kill in battle, doesn't mean you're willing to do so when you aren't in
immediate danger of capture.
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 17:45:25 -0500
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>hmm, i dunno about that, but the liberal party in australia is
>actually conservvative. . . .
You'd almost expect that Down Under, where summer is winter and water
drains out of the bath in the "wrong" direction. :)
Damon
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 17:48:02 -0500
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>I dropped the X-Titles a while back, but I was getting the impression
>that one could buy mutant-power blockers at Radio Shack in the Marvel
>Universe. :) If they've cleaned things up a bit, fine; but considering
>how common those things were I could never figure out why Rogue didn't
>just wear one with the "on/off" switch in easy reach.
>
>Leah
I wrote in and suggested that many years ago, and asked for the first date
with her after she got the 'on/off' bracelet in place. ;)
Damon
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|****************** Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs *******************|
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Damon & Peni's homepages: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3401/ |
| Children's Books -- Dolls -- X-Files -- Pulp Magazines |
| Worthy Causes -- Computer -- Atlanta -- All Human Knowledge |
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:52:22 -0700
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com>
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com
Organization: None
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Champions artists
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
David Stallard wrote:
> I'm just curious if anybody has any favorites among the artists who have
> illustrated the various Champs books over the years. I'm bringing this up
> because I've recently noticed that Storn Cook's art usually stands out to
> me. I think what I like is that he draws the characters in action poses
> rather than just standing around.... Most of the enemies books I have just
> have the villains standing around smiling for the "camera", but he often
> has them jumping through the air, blasting at some target "off-screen" (oy,
> am I from the TV generation!). Anyway, I guess I just wanted to point out
> that Cook's art is usually more exciting to look at, and maybe put my vote
> in to the powers that be so that they'll continue to use his stuff (I know
> he did the cover for San Angelo, but dunno if he did the interior).
To date I'd have to say that my favorite artists have been Mark Williams (and
many hate the guy but I still like him), Pat Zircher, Greg Smith, and The guy
that did Aaron Alliston's Strike force & The Blood & Dr McQuark - all of which
are curiously missing from my collection once again - he also did a Shao Lin
Comic that was pretty cool.(sorry, Back to my list). I also like storn cook's
work, especially the cover of Viper.
-Chad and his $.02 band...
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:00:04 -0700
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com>
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com
Organization: None
To: "Andreano, Keith HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com>
CC: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Losing Battles (WAS RE: END: Running out of it)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Andreano, Keith HIM,VA wrote:
> >I'd say 1.5 Turns is a fairly typical combat in my games. However, I
> >should say that lately I don't think I've been challenging the PCs
> >enough...too many agents and not enough supervillains. It's been too
> long
> >since they lost a battle, or were even in fear of losing a battle.
>
> This brings up an interesting point. How often in your games do the
> heroes loose a battle. More importantly, why do they survive after?
> If the villains defeat the heroes, what stops them from just killing
> them.
> Forget the "it's not 4 color excuse". ^_^; There should be a better
> reason the PCs don't end up in a body bag the first time they lose
> a combat with villains. I personally think this is an important point
> that should be made in a campaign. It's easy to suspend disbelief
> as far as super powers go, but having the villains not kill the heroes
> when they have the chance "just because it's not 4 color" is going
> to far (IMHO). What is everyone's take on this? Flame away! ^_^;
>
> ^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;
> "No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"
> - Joan of Arc's .sig
> Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com
We usually had some NPC's Bail us out. Once though I lost to an Evil
Knight type guy with a scythe and he offed me. My character - somehting of a
Captain Marvel avatar champion of magic, awoke as a Captain Marvel UNDEAD
avatar champion of magic. We just went on from there....
Chad
'Gee and to think I named myself Triumph...."
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:03:26 -0700
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Losing Battles (WAS RE: END: Running out of it)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 04:34 PM 5/13/1998 -0500, Andreano, Keith HIM,VA wrote:
>This brings up an interesting point. How often in your games do the
>heroes loose a battle. More importantly, why do they survive after?
>If the villains defeat the heroes, what stops them from just killing
>them.
In no particular order:
1. They're just not interested. Not all villains are ruthless killers;
often, they're more interested in getting away with the loot than in
killing the heroes.
2. It's counterproductive. Often the villain has some other goal in
mind for the hero, like reverse-engineering his cybernetics or studying his
mutated body chemistry.
3. Fear. Like cop-killers, hero-killers tend to be treated with
greater ruthlessness and higher priorities than other criminals. In the
Champions Universe, at least, I wouldn't advise the average hero-killing
villain to spend much time in Atlanta....
4. It's hollow, especially if a long contention ("He's my
arch-nemesis") preceded the defeat. The really cruel villains will want to
make their enemies suffer before they die, know who did it to them, destroy
the details of their lives before snuffing them out, etc. That, I believe,
is the likely motivation why the villains on the old Batman TV series
always put the Dynamic Duo in improbable deathtraps rather than just put a
bullet through each brain.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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From: "WG Rowland" <rowland@cts.com>
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Problems with Hero 4th edition
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:03:29 -0700
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
The biggest problem I ever had with Hero (more when running Fantasy Hero
than when running Champions) were the joint concepts of Objects and Money..
By objects I simply mean that all objects are created out of the same
system (which is good).. With this system you can construct a sword that
turns what it strikes into monkeys, or likewise a character's punch could
turn what it strikes into monkeys.. And all these things cost the generic X
Character Points..
The problem is that this system gets kinda quirky in a genre where
things are picked up and put down on a regular basis.. (Swords, armor, spell
books, magic totems of Iggy, etc.) If these things don't cost character
points they're likely to unbalance the game.. If they do you've got a
constant flux of character points..
Translating these things into Money is even more awkward.. That sword
costs $100 bucks but you can't use it cause you don't have the points.. Or
you CAN use it, but all your experience will go into paying off the CP
cost.. It just get's kinda wierd..
I'd love to see a good solution to this.. (And I'm sure there are many
out there.. I don't get out much..)
WGR
-----Original Message-----
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Wednesday, May 13, 1998 2:21 PM
Subject: Problems with Hero 4th edition
>With the introduction of Fuzion and the upcoming 5th edition I've become
>curious as to what other think are some of the problems with Hero. I don't
>mean things like the great linked debate or strength costs. Those have been
>hashed out endlessly but other problems that aren't matters of
>interpretation. To get the ball rolling:
>
>Combat speed:From the Fuzion list I've heard this put up as problem. I
>persoanlly haven't seen Fuzion combat as being much faster with the Speed
>chart but I seem to be in a minority.
>
>Messing with the system:Hero 4th has "dials and switches" they just aren't
>as laid out as in Fuzion. This seems to create the idea that Hero isn't as
>flexible.
>
>More examples:I'm a firm beleiver that with Hero you can create just about
>anything. But the way to get there can be daunting. More examples and
>"prepackaged" abilites (spells,gadgets,etc) could make it easier for new
>players.
>I know violence doesn't solve all problems...
> But it sure feels good!
> Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior
>
>
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 19:48:03 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Champions artists
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
<< (I know [Storn Cook] did the cover for San Angelo, but dunno if he did the
interior). >>
Storn did many of the interior illos for San Angelo as well, along with
Albert Deschesne, Steve Bryant, Louis Frank and Greg Smith.
You can catch one of Storn's San Angelo illos (in full color, no less) on
the San Angelo Times Online web site.
Mark @ GRG
http://members.aol.com/goldrushg
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 20:02:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Champions artists
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Wed, 13 May 1998, GoldRushG wrote:
> << (I know [Storn Cook] did the cover for San Angelo, but dunno if he did the
> interior). >>
>
> Storn did many of the interior illos for San Angelo as well, along with
> Albert Deschesne, Steve Bryant, Louis Frank and Greg Smith.
Storn has improved a great deal since he first started doing stuff for
Hero. "Watchers" has some really nice pieces.
OTOH: Albert Deschesne ranks up there with Mark Willams. He is horrible.
Don't believe me? Look at "Kingdom of Champions" sometime...
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 20:07:35 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Champions artists
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
<< The best examples of Scott's work are in Hero System Almanac 2 and Enemies
Assemble >>
I rather like the cover of Hudson City Blues. :)
Mark @ GRG
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 17:08:49 -0700
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com>
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com
Organization: None
To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
CC: "Champ's Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Team Dodge
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> > Okay I love tinkering with team hooks. I just finished Team Dodge, a
> > super team sponsored by General Motors. I got this idea once when a
> > friend of mine (and you know who you are ;-)) told me that all the cool
> > names he'd thought up for Champions characters had been taken by the
> > auto industry. So here is team dodge
>
> Only problem is that Dodge is a Chrysler nameplate, not a GM
> nameplate. (And Chrysler just got bought out by Benz, so . . .)
>
> -Tim Gilberg
>
> -"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
Oh poop! YOu guys are right. I was looking originally at GM but Chrysler is
the owner of Dodge. Okay so They are based in the Chrysler Building and
Mercedes Couldn't buy them out because Team Dodge was a Huge windfall
financially and rep wise for the corporation. They soon were in the black so
to speak and the team added two members (cars that I forgot and were part of
the reason I picked dodge) Viper: a former Viper villain (martial artist with
a sword and lots of Detective skills), and Prowler: a woman with feline
Predator powers. Team Dodge is currently looking for four more applicants
adnd turn the program into two teams (one on each coast).
Thanks for comments Keep em coming....
Chad
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 17:22:32 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
To: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: END: Running out of it
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
David Stallard wrote:
>
> In my experience, it's fairly uncommon for a fight to go on so long that
> the heroes are in danger of running out of Endurance. Is it the same for
> your games, or are my players buying too much Endurance to begin with?
> They normally have 40-50 END. The only time I think my players have been
> low on END is when they push their attacks several phases in a row, or if
> they happen to have some power which costs lots of extra END to use.
For most of our games, endurance is a factor in tactics towards the end
of a combat. There have been many times that stun has been burnt particuly
after a person gets knocked out and wakes up again. You end up with an
endurance equal to your stun and some pretty tough decisions have to be made.
> In a related question, I usually don't keep track of END for my villains,
> 'cause I have enough to worry about. Do you think this is a mistake on my
> part?
Generaly for the bad guys, we just worry about stun and sometimes body.
Endurance for the villians is swept under the carpet.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
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From: ErolB1 <ErolB1@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 20:33:22 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Losing Battles (WAS RE: END: Running out of it)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
In a message dated 98-05-13 17:46:42 EDT, andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com writes:
> This brings up an interesting point. How often in your games do the
> heroes loose a battle. More importantly, why do they survive after?
> If the villains defeat the heroes, what stops them from just killing
> them.
> Forget the "it's not 4 color excuse". ^_^; There should be a better
> reason the PCs don't end up in a body bag the first time they lose
> a combat with villains. I personally think this is an important point
> that should be made in a campaign. It's easy to suspend disbelief
> as far as super powers go, but having the villains not kill the heroes
> when they have the chance "just because it's not 4 color" is going
> to far (IMHO). What is everyone's take on this? Flame away! ^_^;
Sorry, but I can't leave out the "it's not 4 color" excuse - it is a genre
convention, IMHO.
But if you want a rationalization: Hubris. The people who put on the gaudy,
flashy, costumes have hubris. They think they're *above* simply killing the
opposition. In the case of heroes not-killing villains, it's a matter of "if
you have to kill, then you're not good enough to be a hero." In the case of
villains not-killing heroes, it's a matter of "hanging's too good for them."
Heroes have "Code vs Killing"; Villains have "Determined to give opponents the
death they deserve."
This last means that Villains can just snuff out a minor minion for serving
the tea wrong, but a captured Hero has to be tormented and humiliated and made
to understand the greatness of the Villain's plans before the Hero can be
allowed to die. The Hero has to be *broken* first. And if the Hero usually
manages to escape, instead, well, costumed types are notoriously difficult to
hold. Stronghold's a sieve too. It is a testiment to the Villain's greatness
that he dared to even try holding a Hero captive or that he succeeded in doing
so for even a little while.
Erol K. Bayburt
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com>
To: "Champs List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: CHAR: WC: Nur al-Allah
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 20:18:28 -0500
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-----Original Message-----
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Tuesday, May 12, 1998 9:26 AM
Subject: Re: CHAR: WC: Nur al-Allah
>How you choose to model these things is largely a matter of personal
>taste. The UM is not 'official', in any case, to those who care about
>such things.
Why do you say that the UM is not official?
Alan
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 21:01:43 -0500
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Losing Battles (WAS RE: END: Running out of it)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> 3. Fear. Like cop-killers, hero-killers tend to be treated with
>greater ruthlessness and higher priorities than other criminals. In the
>Champions Universe, at least, I wouldn't advise the average hero-killing
>villain to spend much time in Atlanta....
Because...?
Damon
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From: "Ron Abitz" <ronald@centraltx.net>
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Losing Battles (WAS RE: END: Running out of it)
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 21:04:54 -0500
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> We usually had some NPC's Bail us out. Once though I lost to an Evil
> Knight type guy with a scythe and he offed me. My character - somehting
of a
> Captain Marvel avatar champion of magic, awoke as a Captain Marvel UNDEAD
> avatar champion of magic. We just went on from there....
Talk about a radiation accident :-)
Ron Abitz
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From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 22:39:53 -0400
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Problems with Hero 4th edition
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Wed, 13 May 1998 16:03:29 -0700, WG Rowland wrote:
>The biggest problem I ever had with Hero (more when running Fantasy Hero
>than when running Champions) were the joint concepts of Objects and Money..
>
> By objects I simply mean that all objects are created out of the same
>system (which is good).. With this system you can construct a sword that
>turns what it strikes into monkeys, or likewise a character's punch could
>turn what it strikes into monkeys.. And all these things cost the generic X
>Character Points..
>
> The problem is that this system gets kinda quirky in a genre where
>things are picked up and put down on a regular basis.. (Swords, armor, spell
>books, magic totems of Iggy, etc.) If these things don't cost character
>points they're likely to unbalance the game.. If they do you've got a
>constant flux of character points..
> Translating these things into Money is even more awkward.. That sword
>costs $100 bucks but you can't use it cause you don't have the points.. Or
>you CAN use it, but all your experience will go into paying off the CP
>cost.. It just get's kinda wierd..
It's only as weird as you allow it be. Don't allow yourself to get to caught up in the
"everything must be paid for with character points" concept. Champions is the only
Hero derivative that I really put forth any effort to enforce that idea.
In Fantasy Hero my solution was to treat them much the same way you would in
something like AD&D. Items and equipment aquired through game play now belong to
that character - weapons, minor magic items, misc stuff; it doesn't really have any major
impact on game balance unless one player tries to hoard all the goodies (a problem
which is usually corrected by the other players). Just remember (like in any other
game) don't let the characters get their grubby paws on anything you don't want them
playing with - make sure that any really gross power trick that a combat adversary can
pull is an intrinsic part of the characters instead of an item that the PCs could pilfer from
the dead body (cause they will if they can).
When characters are first built I use one of a couple of different systems I've dreamed
up to determine starting cash - this money can be used to purchase and "normally
available equipment"
-=>John D.
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 22:44:12 -0400
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: A Matter of Law
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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> What's scarry is the Democrats would be the most likely to get away with
it.
I resent that... or possibly thank you!
Jeff Reid
Morfhis@compuserve.com
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 23:24:43 -0400
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: Champions artists
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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> I'm just curious if anybody has any favorites among the artists who have
> illustrated the various Champs books over the years. I'm bringing this
up
> because I've recently noticed that Storn Cook's art usually stands out to
> me.
Storn is one of my favorites as well. And I can tell you from personal
experience that he also runs one HELL of a Champions game!
Jeff Reid
Morfhis@compuserve.com
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 00:21:49 -0400
From: boaters <boaters@mindspring.com>
To: champs mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: robot
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Are there any rules about a robot having a 0 con stat?
What would the end result of a 0 con for a robot be?
Thanks for any help.
Darin
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Champions artists
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 22:57:14 -0700
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> From: Bob Greenwade
>
><snip>
>
> Hey folks, are David and I the only ones with this problem concerning
> published characters (the illos are great but we can't show them because
> they reveal too much information)?
> ---
Not at all. I hate to post a "Me, too!" post, but that problem irritates me even more.
Filksinger
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 03:18:32 -0400
From: Brad Cook <bcook@northernway.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Running out of END
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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Most battles in my campaign have not been lost by the team running out
of END. I find that some characters use up their endurance and may be
out of the fight but other characters still have their END. Usually
battles are lost due to indicision or mistakes by the character (or
player). I usually have some way for the character to win, which may
not actually require beating up the villain. One of the most successful
encounters in my current campaign involved aiding a young woman who had
been forced into crime by an organization of mentalists. Trying to beat
the mentalists and handing them over to the police would have resulted
in total failure. The mentalists were not wanted for anything and they
had previously forced the girl to commit a bank robbery for which she
WAS wanted. A lone hero merely distracted the bad guys and escaped with
the girl. This was done by a lone heroine in an extremely efficient
manner, she only spent about 10 END in the whole scenario, and most of
that was on movement. Another character spent all his END on pushing
and ran out twice, but because he had team mates to keep the agents busy
while he disabled a giant tank (although he did a sloppy job of it,
attacking head on and relying on brute force). While the villain
escaped with his loot, the major threat was stopped with no damage to
the heroes.
Heroes concepts determine their abilities and the scenario affects
what is a success and what is a failure.
Brad
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 03:29:58 -0400
From: Brad Cook <bcook@northernway.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Problems with Hero 4th edition
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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The biggest weakness with Hero is also one of their greatest strengths.
It is very hard to kill in the game system.
This is wonderful for Champions. There simply is no better way that
I have seen to simulate the look and feal of four color comic books. I
love this part of the system. The drawback is that it is not suited for
grittier genres. I solve the problem by using a different system
(Gurps) when I run a fantasy campaign, or cyberpunk or horror. Hero
system does not seem well suited to such campaigns to me and the reverse
is also true. A friend of mine tried to use Gurps Supers for four
color campaign using their stun rules and it really sucked! I was very
upset that a character of mine was shot and the bullet basically bounced
off, he was not supposed to be bulletproof (no resistant defenses).
Brad
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 11:45:29 +0100
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
To: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net>
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Gadget
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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Palace of Dwarves wrote:
>
> Ok, while sitting around at work tonight, I came up
> an idea for one of the followers of one of my PC's. The guy
> is basically a gadgeteer that is driven to create tech
> that can help prevent or stop crime.
> I recently saw the movie "The big Hit" (very funny). In
> it, thye had this delightful item called the Buster 2000. The
> idea behind it is that it can trace a call, but cab be also be
> blocked by the same tech.
> So my question is this, how would anyone go about
> creating such an item?
> Mindscan?
> Lightning Calculator?
> Radio Transmit/Receive?
> Discriminatory Sense?
> Some obscure Science skill?
Personally I would try to model this using a detect which although it is
a bit of a stretch.
DETECT Incoming callers, Discriminatory (to differentiate betwixt
callers), Some + to PER.
Link this with a KS: Phone directory.
The reverse effect is now an obviously invisibility to this narrow
detect.
--
_==/ i i \==_
/XX/ |\___/| \XX\
/XXXX\ |XXXXX| /XXXX\
|XXXXXX\_ _XXXXXXX_ _/XXXXXX|
XXXXXXXXXXXxxxxxxxXXXXXXXXXXXxxxxxxxXXXXXXXXXXX
|XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|
XXXXXXXXX http://www.lynch1.demon.co.uk XXXXXXXXX
|XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|
XXXXXX/^^^^"\XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX/^^^^^\XXXXXX
|XXX| \XXX/^^\XXXXX/^^\XXX/ |XXX|
\XX\ \X/ \XXX/ \X/ /XX/
"\ " \X/ " /"
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 11:45:29 +0100
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
To: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net>
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Gadget
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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Palace of Dwarves wrote:
>
> Ok, while sitting around at work tonight, I came up
> an idea for one of the followers of one of my PC's. The guy
> is basically a gadgeteer that is driven to create tech
> that can help prevent or stop crime.
> I recently saw the movie "The big Hit" (very funny). In
> it, thye had this delightful item called the Buster 2000. The
> idea behind it is that it can trace a call, but cab be also be
> blocked by the same tech.
> So my question is this, how would anyone go about
> creating such an item?
> Mindscan?
> Lightning Calculator?
> Radio Transmit/Receive?
> Discriminatory Sense?
> Some obscure Science skill?
Personally I would try to model this using a detect which although it is
a bit of a stretch.
DETECT Incoming callers, Discriminatory (to differentiate betwixt
callers), Some + to PER.
Link this with a KS: Phone directory.
The reverse effect is now an obviously invisibility to this narrow
detect.
--
_==/ i i \==_
/XX/ |\___/| \XX\
/XXXX\ |XXXXX| /XXXX\
|XXXXXX\_ _XXXXXXX_ _/XXXXXX|
XXXXXXXXXXXxxxxxxxXXXXXXXXXXXxxxxxxxXXXXXXXXXXX
|XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|
XXXXXXXXX http://www.lynch1.demon.co.uk XXXXXXXXX
|XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|
XXXXXX/^^^^"\XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX/^^^^^\XXXXXX
|XXX| \XXX/^^\XXXXX/^^\XXX/ |XXX|
\XX\ \X/ \XXX/ \X/ /XX/
"\ " \X/ " /"
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 09:34:25 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Problems with Hero 4th edition
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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On Wed, 13 May 1998, WG Rowland wrote:
> By objects I simply mean that all objects are created out of the same
> system (which is good).. With this system you can construct a sword that
> turns what it strikes into monkeys, or likewise a character's punch could
> turn what it strikes into monkeys.. And all these things cost the generic X
> Character Points..
>
> The problem is that this system gets kinda quirky in a genre where
> things are picked up and put down on a regular basis.. (Swords, armor, spell
> books, magic totems of Iggy, etc.)
Well, the rulebook recomends that you _not_ charge character points for
objects in most genres, and I'm inclined to agree. (One exception:
extraordinary objects which the character starts the game with probably
should be bought with points, often as Independent.)
> If these things don't cost character points they're likely to unbalance
> the game..
No more than they do in games that don't use point-systems.
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 09:40:13 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: RE: GAZZA's Analysis of the Champions List
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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On Tue, 12 May 1998, Filksinger wrote:
> > My question is... WHAT is a Great Linked Debate?!?!?
>
> The Great Linked Debate was a long, drawn out, acrimonious discussion on
> Linked, which tended towards two major camps:
>
> 1. When you take Linked on the lesser of two powers, the lesser can only be
> used with the greater, but the greater of the two can be used independently.
>
> 2. When you take Linked on the lesser of two powers, the two must be used
> together; neither can be used separately.
>
> Personally, I was of the camp that if both were limited, it should be -1/2,
> but if only one was limited, it should be -1/4.
>
> There was more to it than that, but that was the core of the Debate.
Well, as I saw it, the more contentious question was whether you could
activate multiple Powers in a single attack by default, or whether the
Powers needed to be Linked. (The two issues really aren't connected at
all, but both are referred to as "The Great Linked Debate".)
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Losing Battles
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-4,6,8,10-12,16-18
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 10:26:49 EDT
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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>1. <snip> If Capt Fantastic is knocked threw 8 parked cars into a brick
>wall and slumps to the ground, one might assume he's dead.
"No one could have survived that!" :)
>2. Some villains just aren't that blood thirsty as well. And killing a
super
>might be like killing a cop. Not always hard but never a good idea. You
get
>the rest of the super community really pissed at you and perhaps a team
of
>vengence minded paranormals on your case in big way.
Some places are adding "victim was a cop" to the list of reasons to
sentence a killer to death instead of life without parole. In a world
with government-sanctioned superheroes, "victim was a sanctioned hero"
will probably make the list once a hero is offed in the line of duty.
Leah
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From: "Andreano, Keith HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com>
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Losing Battles (WAS RE: END: Running out of it)
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 10:02:30 -0500
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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>Actually, there's a very simple reason for (most) villians not
killing
>the heroes when they have them at their mercy.
>Self preservation.
>If word gets out that you killed an unconscious hero, what are
YOUR
>chances of survival the next time YOU lose a battle? Sure,
MOST heroes
>wouldnt kill you, but SOME will.. and you never know who
you'll be
>fighting tomorrow.
This is basically the reason I use. Most villains are just street
punks with super powers, they only act out of self preservation.
Becoming known as a "hero killer" is worse than being a cop
killer (more impact in the press, etc.). You get a very short
life expectancy. Nobody (not even other villains) will pull
any punches with you, they think you are going to get them
next, and will try to kill you first to stop you from killing them!
I just thought that this was a quasi-realistic excuse
for PC survival. Fun world we live in! ^_^;
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;
"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"
- Joan of Arc's .sig
Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 08:14:03 -0700 (PDT)
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To: Brad Cook <bcook@northernway.net>
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net>
Subject: RE: Problems with Hero 4th edition
Cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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At 03:29 AM 5/14/98 -0400, Brad Cook wrote:
>The biggest weakness with Hero is also one of their greatest strengths.
>It is very hard to kill in the game system.
>
> This is wonderful for Champions. There simply is no better way that
>I have seen to simulate the look and feal of four color comic books. I
>love this part of the system. The drawback is that it is not suited for
>grittier genres. I solve the problem by using a different system
>(Gurps) when I run a fantasy campaign, or cyberpunk or horror. Hero
>system does not seem well suited to such campaigns to me and the reverse
>is also true. A friend of mine tried to use Gurps Supers for four
>color campaign using their stun rules and it really sucked! I was very
>upset that a character of mine was shot and the bullet basically bounced
>off, he was not supposed to be bulletproof (no resistant defenses).
>
>Brad
>
>
Hero does handle "action movie" verisons of Fantasy, Cyberpunk and Horrror
well. Heroes in those tend to take an outrageous amount of punishment
without dying or being critically injured ir killed. Using hit
locations,impairing, bleeding and wounding can up the lethality for more
"realistic" genres as well.
I know violence doesn't solve all problems...
But it sure feels good!
Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 08:22:14 -0700
From: James Jandebeur <james@javaman.to>
To: champs mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: robot
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Well, typically you'd buy Automaton at 60 points for the robot, and it
wouldn't have an END score, so having a 0 CON wouldn't make much of a
difference. It already can't be stunned or knocked unconscious, and
does not bleed, so the only useful ability CON gives is a little bit of
ED, which you're going to need armor to cover for the most part,
anyway. I believe there is a comment somewhere about selling the CON
back for the 20 points, but I'm not sure about that one. For a
different, and somewhat more complex and complete, treatment take a look
at:
http://www.javaman.to/incomp.html
JAJ, Gaming Philosopher
boaters wrote:
> Are there any rules about a robot having a 0 con stat?
>
> What would the end result of a 0 con for a robot be?
>
> Thanks for any help.
>
> Darin
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 11:24:40 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Champions artists
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<< OTOH: Albert Deschesne ranks up there with Mark Willams. He is horrible.
Don't believe me? Look at "Kingdom of Champions" sometime... >>
If his work was horrible we wouldn't have hired him for San Angelo. I think
you'll be very surprised at the pieces that Al did for San Angelo. I'd be
willing to post one to the San Angelo Times Online site for your perusal...
Mark @ GRG
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 11:35:00 -0400
From: Brad Cook <bcook@northernway.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Heroes Lethality
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I agree that Hero System does handle "action movie" style as well as
pulp adventure style campaigns. I also understand that people can be
killed. My point was that for an attack to have an average chance of
killing an average person in one blow, is 3 dice of Killing Attack.
That is using the hit locations to have a head shot do double damage.
Such an attack can cut into an armored car, two blows from such an
attack could cut a foot thick oak tree in half. In Champions this is a
good thing, as with some other types of campaigns. I was merely
pointing out the relative difficulty in killing people.
Another way to state the problem is that it is too easy to knock
some one out without killing them. Take this example: A group of
goblins have a magic item the characters need. Actual ownership is
questionable, the characters have as legitmate a claim as the goblins
who have the item in their possession. In Hero system the characters
can go in and knock the goblins out, then take the item. No one gets
hurt, there are no moral dilemas. In other systems, the characters
would have to come up with some way to get what they want without
fighting or live with killing their opponents.
This was a feature of the pulp adventures as well, check out
Farmer's "Apocalyptic Life of Doc Savage", Monk was repeatedly hit on
the skull hard enough to knock him out without ever suffering brain
damage. It isn't realistic but it isn't supposed to be.
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 08:42:58 -0700
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Losing Battles (WAS RE: END: Running out of it)
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At 09:01 PM 5/13/1998 -0500, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
>> 3. Fear. Like cop-killers, hero-killers tend to be treated with
>>greater ruthlessness and higher priorities than other criminals. In the
>>Champions Universe, at least, I wouldn't advise the average hero-killing
>>villain to spend much time in Atlanta....
>
>Because...?
Because Hardwire, leader of the Cyberknights has gained much more of a
vigilante mentality since being converted from gadgeteer to cyborg -- his
"Strong Regard for Life" (15 pts) would likely be set aside in favor of his
"Total Commitment to Justice" (25 pts). Three of the five other members
have Total CVK, and the remaining two aren't quite as justice-oriented, so
they'd *probably* be enough to keep the villain alive, but it's hard to be
sure.
In general, a hero-killing villain can probably expect to see the
floodgates open up as the heroes (whether the Cyberknights or some other
group) pull out all the stops to make sure he goes down before he kills one
of them.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 08:52:42 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Team Dodge
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At 09:59 PM 5/12/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Okay I love tinkering with team hooks. I just finished Team Dodge, a
>super team sponsored by General Motors. I got this idea once when a
>friend of mine (and you know who you are ;-)) told me that all the cool
>names he'd thought up for Champions characters had been taken by the
>auto industry. So here is team dodge
I love it hee hee (chuckling mightily) and you know for sure you would see
this in real life.
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Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 12:01:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Champions artists
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On Thu, 14 May 1998, GoldRushG wrote:
> << OTOH: Albert Deschesne ranks up there with Mark Willams. He is horrible.
> Don't believe me? Look at "Kingdom of Champions" sometime... >>
>
> If his work was horrible we wouldn't have hired him for San Angelo. I think
> you'll be very surprised at the pieces that Al did for San Angelo. I'd be
> willing to post one to the San Angelo Times Online site for your perusal...
Sorry, Mark. I have always felt I had much more artistic skill than
Albert. "Kingdom of Champions" and "Mystic Masters" both had just
terrible artwork , most of it his. I have no idea what his new stuff
looks like, but based on past examples, I wouldn't want to see him name in
the 'interior illustrations' listing.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 09:08:21 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: RE: 15 Points
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Ok this was a pretty fun little topic, but it brings up a very fascinating
point. How many of the people went "gee I can build really cool powers that
Id LOVE to have for this many points (tinker tinker)" and are the ones who
run 760 point champions games?
I guess it comes down to perspective. Even just 30 strength would be
spectacular (I CAN LIFT A CAR!!!!), a little bit of flight is amazing, etc
etc. One of my freinds told me he didnt like Hero cause he tried to make
Iron Man and couldnt. I wondered why that would be and found out that he
was trying to make the modern, successful, powerful (tons of xps) Iron Man,
on starting points.
But Iron Man is an excellent example (one of the FEW) for how experience
works. He started out with basically some bulletproof armor, a little life
support, flight, extra strength and a blast, not very powerful, and it all
ran out of juice in a HURRY. Over time he got better and better....
It just seems to me that people are trying to play all powerful experienced
guys to start with (I call this the Image effect), rather than the beginning
characters. You can do it with champions, just like you can make a party of
30th level God Killers in AD&D and (yawn) kill gods.... but just look back
at the fun of making yourself a few teeny superpowers again! :)
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Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 09:09:17 -0700
To: champs mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: robot
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At 12:21 AM 5/14/1998 -0400, boaters wrote:
>Are there any rules about a robot having a 0 con stat?
>
>What would the end result of a 0 con for a robot be?
>
>Thanks for any help.
The end result of 0 CON for a robot, or any other entity that has a CON
characteristic, would be that it becomes Stunned when any amount of STUN
whatsoever gets through its defenses.
Rather than create a robot with 0 CON, I'd recommend omitting the CON
characteristic altogether, along with STUN and REC. Then treat it as
though it has the "Takes No Stun" Automaton Power from page 180-181 of HSR.
Along the same lines, you could even borrow a cue from the vehicle rules
and decide to also omit personal END, letting STR and Movement work at 0
END for no extra cost but requiring that anything else (weapons and other
Powers that normally would require personal END) run off Charges or an END
Reserve, or be bought to 0 END.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 09:11:34 -0700
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: Champions artists
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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At 10:57 PM 5/13/1998 -0700, Filksinger wrote:
>> From: Bob Greenwade
>> Hey folks, are David and I the only ones with this problem concerning
>> published characters (the illos are great but we can't show them because
>> they reveal too much information)?
>
>Not at all. I hate to post a "Me, too!" post, but that problem irritates
me even more.
OK, Mark, Steve, et al -- pay attention! This is an important note for
*all* Hero Plus & GRG artists to keep in mind! :-]
---
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 09:15:43 -0700
To: Kim Foster <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: RE: Problems with Hero 4th edition
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>>The biggest weakness with Hero is also one of their greatest strengths.
>>It is very hard to kill in the game system.
>Hero does handle "action movie" verisons of Fantasy, Cyberpunk and Horrror
>well. Heroes in those tend to take an outrageous amount of punishment
>without dying or being critically injured ir killed. Using hit
>locations,impairing, bleeding and wounding can up the lethality for more
>"realistic" genres as well.
Actually that was what I was about to say. The majority of the games I run
in Hero actually are NOT Champions, ranging from Sci Fi to post apocalyptic
to westerns to Vietnam to Fantasy. Using the 'dials' and 'switches' to use
Fuzion terms, Hero becomes VERY effective and lethal, and scary what you do
to the poor heroes sometimes hhehe (oooh, I guess he wears an eyepatch now...)
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 09:28:14 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Champions artists
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At 11:24 AM 5/14/1998 EDT, GoldRushG wrote:
><< OTOH: Albert Deschesne ranks up there with Mark Willams. He is horrible.
>Don't believe me? Look at "Kingdom of Champions" sometime... >>
>
> If his work was horrible we wouldn't have hired him for San Angelo. I think
>you'll be very surprised at the pieces that Al did for San Angelo. I'd be
>willing to post one to the San Angelo Times Online site for your perusal...
Please do! (If only to satisfy Michael's dissatisfaction....)
---
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 12:28:24 -0400
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us>
To: CHAMP-L@sysabend.org
Subject: RE: 15 Points
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ctaylor@cyberis.net wrote:
>>>>
It just seems to me that people are trying to play all powerful experienced
guys to start with (I call this the Image effect), rather than the beginning
characters. You can do it with champions, just like you can make a party of
30th level God Killers in AD&D and (yawn) kill gods.... but just look back
at the fun of making yourself a few teeny superpowers again! :)
<<<<<
The Image effect? There are a lot of influences I'd ascribe to
Image Comics (mostly bad ones), but I wouldn't say the notion of
a hero who starts out powerful has any particular ties to Image.
Look at some of the Golden Age heroes. While some were just
regular people in costumes, folks like the Spectre, Dr. Fate, and
Green Lantern started out immensely powerful. As you yourself
observe, Iron Man is one of the FEW comics heroes for whom the
experience model really works - and I'd say that's mainly due to
the nature of escalating technology.
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 09:35:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: META: [was: Re: Back to the Point (DAMN LONG!))
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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Just for future reference, the original post from Robert
<baron@stlnet.com> was too long for several people's mailservers, I
got bounces with an error message that the message to to large. The
mailservers that complained had a limit of 40000 characters - I'd
probably recommend keeping message well below 30000 (split the message
into multiple parts), which would also make life a little easier for
those folks who have very slow connections (with a particularly long
message, they can choose not to open the subsequent parts if part 1
didn't interest them).
==
John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org>
============================================
Got a question about the list? Just ask. Or, you can go
look over at www.sysabend.org/champions. I've been
slowly posting information about the list there.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 11:38:42 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: "Champ's Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Team Dodge
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> Oh poop! YOu guys are right. I was looking originally at GM but Chrysler is
> the owner of Dodge. Okay so They are based in the Chrysler Building and
> Mercedes Couldn't buy them out because Team Dodge was a Huge windfall
> financially and rep wise for the corporation. They soon were in the black so
A huge windfall? Maybe it'd work better if they _had_ been bought
out by Benz, gifning a chance for a merge with a German team. They always
could have been a financial hassle with lots of lawsuits for property
damage. Or villians attacked the team in the plant and destroyed
production. Something like that.
The problem with a corporate sponsered team is that corporations,
with deep pockets, will be readily sued for any property damage the supers
battles may cause. That's why you may more likely see corporations
secretly sponsering hero teams or donating money through charitable
foundations.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 12:45:23 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Champions artists
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<< Sorry, Mark. I have always felt I had much more artistic skill than
Albert. >>
Feel free to submit some samples of superhero art to us, Michael.
<< "Kingdom of Champions" and "Mystic Masters" both had just terrible artwork
, most of it his. >>
And Ben Edlund did work in KOC, too. What do all those millions of Tick fans
know about art, eh? ;) People can improve over time, and I assure you Mr.
Deschesne's work has improved. We're very happy with how his pieces turned out
that are in the book. I guess I'm going to have to post one of his pieces for
folks to see for themselves.
<< I have no idea what his new stuff looks like, but based on past examples, I
wouldn't want to see him name in the 'interior illustrations' listing. >>
Fair enough. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. But I think it's
prudent to reserve judgment until after you see these. ;)
Mark @ GRG
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 12:47:00 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Champions artists
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<< OK, Mark, Steve, et al -- pay attention! This is an important note for
*all* Hero Plus & GRG artists to keep in mind! >>
Okee dokee.
Mark @ GRG
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 09:52:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Heroes Lethality
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---Brad Cook wrote:
>
> I agree that Hero System does handle "action movie" style as well as
> pulp adventure style campaigns. I also understand that people can be
> killed. My point was that for an attack to have an average chance of
> killing an average person in one blow, is 3 dice of Killing Attack.
> That is using the hit locations to have a head shot do double damage.
> Such an attack can cut into an armored car, two blows from such an
> attack could cut a foot thick oak tree in half. In Champions this
is a
> good thing, as with some other types of campaigns. I was merely
> pointing out the relative difficulty in killing people.
3d6 to the head? A base normal has 10 body and 0 rPD. 3d6 killing
averages 11.5 body. Hit someone anywhere but the feet or hands and he
is dying, and IIRC will bleed to death in less than two minutes.
Suprisingly realistic for Hero System :)
If you aim for the head, an 1.5d6k is enough to kill (1d6+1 with a
slightly better than average roll).
I've also seen in use the idea that all base stats at 10 represent an
average heroic character, with a base spud off the street averaging 8s
for all base stats. Using this theory, the 1d6+1 to the head is fatal
with an average roll.
-=>John D.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
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From: "R Kemp" <baron@mail.stlnet.com>
To: "Champs" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Back to the Point (Part 1)(Damn Long!)
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 11:52:52 -0500
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Since a lot of people are giving me such good input into the Metahuman
Registration Act, I thought I would give more info into how it is used in my
game.
Upon the manifestation of powers which are beyond the scope of normal human
abilites to perform, you are required to register within a 90 day period.
Most record breaking athletes aren't considered metahuman as to BE conidered
metahuman, you have to almost double or half the last record within a year
of it being set and their is genetic testing which will identify if the
subject is metahuman. Failure to register indicates a willingness to
consider yourself above the law and CAN mean a jail sentence or a healthy
fine though mostly probation if the metahuman is a benevolent one. Most
times it is difficult to find the exact time that a person manifested their
powers and if these powers surface in public, AMPERSAT will most likely not
pursue an investigation if the subject willingly agrees to register UNLESS
the powers were used in the commission of a crime. If the powers were used
in the commission of a crime, then from 3 to 5 years for "Failure to
register metahuman abilities" can be tacked onto any other sentences the
criminal may have incurred. The actual intent of the bill was to harshly
punish those for not registering but the sterness is now reserved for
criminal metahumans and AMPERSAT usually goes about their business in a
freindly-like manner appearing as a benevolent government organization (I
know thats an oxymoron) intent upon preserving the peace and harmony which
exists between humans and metahumans by testing powers to see if they are a
public threat and responding to paranormal occurences when necessary.
I'll include a little history so you know about the world itself:
Keep in mind that in my history so far that a super-hero named Yankee is in
the back pocket of the U.S. government since the early 40's and Yankee
helped win the war in half the time and captured Hitler to boot. We never
dropped bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima because the helicopters which had
been invented by then did a LOT of deep troop insertions into Japan after
Japan was hit by a mysterious plague which affected their grain and fishing.
We starved them out and then took Japan with metahumans and higher tech
troops. America also wanted to make Japan a 51st state by continuing its
"Manifest Destiny" in frightening proportions. That never came about but
"Empire America" was a term coined in the emerging U.N. to draw attention to
the near monoploy America had on paranormals.
America is more of an empire and a scary one at that. That corn-fed
super-hero named Yankee is now in the White House and has passed many a law
including those that require Gun training and liscensing which does hinder
the rights of many Amercians already. Yes, this has caused militias to go
through the roof including the Impergium (an organization similar to
Genocide in aims but more like a scary militia type group).
The history also includes a super soldier program BUT most of the test
subjects were the "colored" troops which were deemed more "expendable".
Major Victory was an American icon in full body armor that appeared again
and again after his apparent death. In truth, when one "colored" test
subject after the other died either from bullet fire or the hyper-cancerous
effects of the super-soldier process, they would be replaced by another
"colored" test subject. One of the last actually demasked in front of the
public which caused a societal shock throughout the U.S. He died later but
his name was used several times in the civil rights marches later and the
American government finally recognized him as a hero and awarded his wife
the pension and decorations that he should have gotten in combat many years
after his death.
Here's a little extra history on the Metahuman Registration Act:
1940
The presence of "Psionics" among some paranormals is documented in several
scientific journals. Very few, at this time, possess these powers but it
does come under speculation that those with the powers might be hidding
themselves and abusing their powers.
1948
Duke University documents a strange rise in the amount of paranormals and
also a rise in their levels of power. The U.S. congress passes a law which
requires all paranormals to register with the United States government but
it is loosely enforced at best.
1950
The Un-American Activities Committee is founded and tries Alger Hiss on
charges of being a mentalist spy for the communists. This sparks the
"WitchHunt" trials where Republican senator from Wisconsin, Joseph McCarthy
tries metahumans and communists alike. During the trial, McCarthy dons a
large and cumbersome "Anti-Mental Helmet" which was later discovered to have
no protective value whatsoever from mental powers.
Several people, encited by McCarthy's paranoid ramblings about psychics and
communists begin actively hunting psychics and paranormals down and killing
them. Out of the 27 actually killed nation-wide it is later discovered that
only 6 were true paranormals or psionicists.
1951
The "WitchHunt" body count for this year is 13 normals dead of which 6 were
found later to be paranormal.
1952
Joseph McCarthy dies of a brain embolism. The House Un-American Activities
Committee continues on but loses much steam due to his death.
The "WitchHunt" deaths dwindle to 3 normals deaths this year and then
finally end.
1959
U.S. discloses a study which indicates the amount of paranormals is
increasing dramatically.
In the beginning of the sixties, there are a LOT of terrorist paranormal
occurences, mostly foiled by paranormals.
1963
The House Paranormal Regulation Committee convenes and discusses greater
measures to regulate paranormal activity and terrorism.
1964
The Johnson administration creates AMPERSAT, the American Metahuman and
Paranormal Emergency Response and Assault Teams, to answer the threat of
paranormal catastrophes and calamities. General Pritchard Scott is placed in
charge. AMPERSAT, however, gets off to a poor start due to the lack of
funding.
1965
The House Paranormal Regulation Committee subpeoanas the Veteran,Yankee and
Gaea. During the preceedings, they insinuate Yankee didn't do his best to
stop the assassination of John F. Kennedy or to capture the "Behemoth".
Gaea and the Veteran prevents Yankee from doing serious bodily damage to
the committee by talking him down. Yankee and Gaea's names are smeared by
the campaign yet he and she still continue to work for the government. The
Veteran resigns from the United States government service after an
impassioned speech. The Paranormal Registration Act is put into effect and
very strictly enforced.
1969
The Nixon Administration pushes a law which requires all paranormals to be
inducted into the military. That fails but it does increase awareness of
paranormals and their abilities.
1970
The House Paranormal Registration Committee allocates a large portion of its
budget to better fund AMPERSAT. Congress also increases the funding for
AMPERSAT.
A Federal law is instituted which basically states any paranormal which
comes to America for any reason must register his paranormal ability or be
arrested for terrorism. This is referred to as the Metahuman Registration
Act. This bill passes due to a growing concern over the unregulated powers
of metahumans.
1971
AMPERSAT takes over the enforcement of paranormal registration from the
local police.
1974
The Right to Mental Privacy Act is passed and it is now officially illegal
to use telepathy on anyone without cause (parental permission, search
warrant, or medical emergency). Mind powers can only be used to apprehend a
suspect but never to interrogate a suspect unless it is a matter of public
safety.
1976
The Supreme Court declares mutants, mutates, clones, and genetic constructs
to have the same basic inalienable rights as humans do under the law of our
land. The ruling does, however exclude aliens, artificial intelligences, or
the undead. Enforcing the law is difficult at best, however, where judges
deem the paranormal presence a threat to "the common good".
1981
An Anti-Gun Bill is nearly passed through Congress. Many people, most
members of the NRA or a similar group, complain that, in addition to
alienating their Constitutional right to bear arms, they "would be at too
much of a disadvantage against a paranormal in a difficult situation."
A huge commune called Alphaville is discovered in the Canadian wilderness
peopled entirely with paranormals mostly U.S. citizens who fled the U.S. due
to fears of what the Paranormal Registration Act would mean. The Canadian
government secretly extends to them Canadian citizenship.
1982
The U.S. discovers the existence of Alphaville and formerly protests to the
United Nations. Little action is taken by the U.N. who declares it is
Canada's right of Extradition as per their recent treaty to "extradite only
those who we feel will be treated fairly and humanely by the government in
question."
1983
Terrorists nuke Alphaville. The Impergium makes its debut and takes credit
in a 40 minute video taped tirade delivered to the United Press Associates.
The voices used are electronically masked and the figures are in dark
silhouette with hoods over their heads. The responsible parties for
delivering the bomb are found to have been destroyed with the bomb and
Alphaville. Over 10,000 people, paranormals and their families, died that
day. The United Nation's Power Corps International helps with clean-up and
investigation.
Several instances of paranormals killing innocents occur either through
accident or purposeful malisciousness. Many crimes are committed by
paranormals which leaves the local police in the dust. AMPERSAT steps up to
the plate and helps in many of these investigations. The worst of these
incidents happens in Goodnight, Texas where an unregistered paranormal
accidentally sets off a natural gas explosion which kills over 327 innocent
bystanders. Nineteen year old Beau Tucker is charged for terrorism, 327
counts of murder, fleeing from Federal Authority, and failing to duly
register his powers. He narrowly escapes the death penalty but is ordered to
serve 327 consecutive life terms and then a total of 75 years after those
sentences have been served. AMPERSAT finds disturbingly that one of Beau's
powers is also most likely immortality.
1984
Several terrorist meta-human groups pop up challenging the U.S. law on
registration. Usually these groups are put down by other meta-humans trying
to uphold the law. Unfortunately, many metahumans change sides.
1987
In a landmark case, the Supreme Court upholds the governments rights to ask
its citizens to register paranormal powers. They site the threat to national
security and public safety as the primary motivating factors in their
decision. The ACLU expresses its disgust at the intrusion into personal
privacy which the Constitution is supposed to ensure.
1990
The "Outcasts" help stop a plot to assassinate Senator Brand, Kane and
Allen, who currently head the House Paranormal Registration Committee. A
group of paranormal terrorists were going to kill them because the Senators
were pushing a bill before Congress and the House which required paranormals
to subject to having electronic tags put upon them for quick identification
and location. One of the Outcasts, Visionary, makes an impassioned plea for
rights of paranormals. The Outcasts disappear once more.
1991
Granite is discovered by the Guardians who hold a press conference about him
in which he reassures all he is here on a peaceful mission of observance.
Extraterrestrial life is confirmed. Once AMPERSAT has established that he is
not here to invade and successfully catalogue his powers and knowledge on
his race (that knowledge which he gave them) they maintain surveillance on
him but let him go. They feel it would not be wise to anger a person who
holds a high position in an alien government with such high technology.
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From: "R Kemp" <baron@mail.stlnet.com>
To: "Champs" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Back to the Point (Part II) (Rebuttals) (Damn Long!)
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 11:52:58 -0500
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Some rebuttals that may be used on some of the wonderful points some of you
have made which I mostly agree with:
_____________________________________________________
What about Pinkman whose sole power is to turn things Pink?
How does he turn things pink? Does repeated "pinking" cause cancer? Is it
dangerous to the environment? Is it done with chemicals? Is it done with
radiation? A proper registration, testing and cataloging of these powers
would help answer these questions and assure that Mr. Pinkman's powers were
indeed harmless. Until this is done, Pinkman's powers are an unknown and
could present a clear and present danger to the public.
_____________________________________________________
>The Fourth <Amendment> is where "mutant registration" laws would be
attacked. <the Fourth deals with unreasonable search and seizure, >and the
requirements of warrants>.The "unreasonable search and seizure" paraphrasing
tends to restrict its meaning to warrants and such. >The full scope of the
Fourth is much broader than that. Any law that has the purpose of
regulating the actions of a person (citizen) based solely >on his existence
is an abrogration of his Fourth Amendment right to the liberty of his
person.
The "equal protection" clause of the Fourteenth Amendement would also be a
cause for appeal against this law. In fact, besides the cited conflicts
with the Fourth, Fifth, and Fourteenth Amendments, there are probably a
couple that we haven't even thought of yet. At the same time, though, it's
not unlikely that the appeal on the basis of the Fourth Amendment would
fail, since the law doesn't make it a crime to be a metahuman; it only makes
it a crime to not register as one. Similarly, a challenge based on the Fifth
Amendment could fail on the grounds that the passage of the law does
constitute due process. (I'm not saying in either case that it *would*
fail; only that it *could.*)
(Couldn't have said it better myself)
_____________________________________________________
>But, this reason cannot apply to mutants, who can have _any_ power under
the
>sun. The use of mutant powers cannot de facto be assumed to be criminal in
>nature.
Essentially, *anything* can be assumed to be criminal in nature. There are
enough stories about outlandish laws in various jurisdictions that at least
some of them have to be true. Against the law to whistle after 10pm? A
misdemeanor to bring a parakeet within 100' of a tavern?
Heck, in Portland, Oregon, the police are allowed to put up traffic stops
and seize the automobiles of those that they suspect to be in the process of
looking for or transporting a prostitute. And even if you prove yourself
innocent, good luck getting the car back (unless you don't mind paying a
couple hundred dollars for the city's storage of your car).
(Most of the rest of the post which contained this quote is quite sensible;
I just didn't see a need to quote a lot of it just to say that.)
(Well said, not to mention many states have several laws which impinge
totally on your privacy. Did you know its illegal in 21 states to have or
perform certain sex acts even on your married partner. How many married
couples broke the law in the privacy of thir own bedroom this weekend? Are
YOU a sex criminal? Check out www.aclu.org for more on this.)
________________________________________________________
>> Or Native American, or Japanese-and the rights of both of these
>>groups have been "legally" abridged, as have the rights of blacks (who at
>>one time had to either be registered with the government or be considered
>>escaped slaves).
>
>The key phrase is "at one time". I've got no doubt that WWII or Vietnam era
>America would have produced registration acts. But you'll notice that the
>abridgements of Native American, Japanese, and African-American rights
don't
>exist TODAY? (I'm not saying these groups aren't /discriminated/ against,
>btw, I'm just saying this level of bigotry is no longer legally validated).
>By the same token, I don't think an MRA would have survived in the ever
more
>"politically correct" 90s.
The "political correctness" of the 90s, and the "right of privacy" that I've
cited, are two strong reasons for such a law to not exist-though I don't
think either is compelling. In my view, it could go either way. It all
depends on what spin is put on it, publicly. I'm not much of a spin doctor
(so I can't give much of an example), but I can see how certain people (with
a better Persuasion roll than mine) could make it seem perfectly within the
bounds of Political Correctness to keep this "non-human monsters" in check.
(Please remember that my game is set in a different game world. Something
very similar to but not quite America. A lot has happened that have made
things a little more scary. My U.S. government is more competent than the
real world U.S. Government and more scary. A lot of the paranoids that think
the government is secretly run by subversively intelligent forces which are
monitoring us closely and impinging upon our "God-given American" rights MAY
BE RIGHT in my game world. Thats the flavor that I have striven for. One of
mistrust of the government and watching your tail. Many powerful metahumans
rush to register and tell people here and there because, if they don't, they
sometimes "disappear". According to a U.N. treaty (in my world), no country
is supposed to have its military forces by metahumans. Now SECRETLY they DO,
but and thats why people often register publicly and loudly to avoid that
fate. Of course, this opens them up to attacks from the Impergium, but I
MEANT to have that Catch-22 in place. All the more reason to register and
have the government "on your side" when Impergium comes to call than
disappear from all you once knew to become a military test. Scary and dark
and not necessarily four-color. Now several DON'T and become villified for
it and thats where the Outcasts come in.)
>Yes, but in this case, you could be playing for all the marbles. Pass
>anti-mutant legislation, and you stand a better than even chance of a
>mutant-backed coup d'etat. There were plenty of outright rebellion attempts
>by oppressed minorities in American history (slave uprisings, et al); now,
>what if one of those uprisings had been composed /entirely/ of
super-powered
>people?
This is an excellent example of why such a law would be stupid. Neither I
nor the person with the original law disagree. My point was that the very
state of being stupid doesn't mean that a law won't exist.
(Thanks, also please remember that the government here is scary and
controlling and have their own secret and nasty ways of getting things done.
They feed the media and nearly control it. If all you saw on TV about
paranormals who HADN'T registered were stories of pain, death, and carnage;
you might change your mind. Mind you, you wouldn't be getting the whole
truth, but when has that stopped the media from printing a sensationalist
story. Stories about how unfair the metahuman registration act is, they seem
to fall by the wayside and get less press.)
_________________________________________________________-
>> Why aren't THESE laws more trouble than they are worth? There is
>> a percieved necessity for these laws.
>
>There's a perceived necessity for these laws, AND they aren't inherently
>discriminatory (except for the draft ... but countries do really stupid
>things in wartime situations). I can choose not to drive, and thus not need
>a license. I can't choose not to be a metahuman.
If this is intended as an argument that the registration law wouldn't exist,
it's a pretty hollow one. Plenty of inherently discriminatory laws have
been on the books, and a few are still there.
(How about laws against the Gay population which incidentally make it
illegal to perform oral sex on your beloved wife even in the privacy of your
own home. (www.aclu.org) I'd say that is pretty damn discriminatory and also
one HELL of an invasion of privacy. Can you tell I'm harping on this sex
thing? Gee, I hope I'm not a sex criminal.)
>>I'm NOT saying registering mutants is right or EVEN intelligent but I
think
>>it would be a political reality.
>
>During WWII, definitely. ESPECIALLY during Vietnam Era. But I think it
would
>have gone the way of grandfather clauses, poll taxes, and Selective Service
>in the 90s.
I'm less certain of that. In light of the preciousness we've tended to
assign the allegedly constitutional "right of privacy," you may well be
right; but then again, as I say, there's almost always been someone who is
either "obviously not human" or who supposedly post a clear and present
danger (usually far less than is purported).
(Right and the government MILKS the Hell out of dangerous metahuman
occurences to prove its point. They also have TV spots which encourage
metahumans to "Do the right thing for your country" and register. Making it
seem like its the right thing to do and making it seem to normals that those
who don't are "Un-American")
>> People fear the unknown and chaos ... hormonally active teens running
>> around with the powers of Gods ... well ... thats a bit dangerous in most
>> people's opinions.
>
>It'll be a lot MORE dangerous when it's /antagonized/ teens running around
>with the powers of gods.
No kidding... but again, if this is an argument about whether the
registration law would exist, it's pretty hollow.
On the other hand, if you're merely arguing that such a law would be a
stupid one, I think you're preaching to the choir; most if not all of us
here agree.
<snip>
>One other thing to remember is that nowhere in the great contract of
reality
>is normal mundane humanity guaranteed a balancing factor against
metahumans.
While I agree with this statement...
>Yes, metahumans can be dangerous. And you'll find out just HOW dangerous
>they can be if you start abusing or antagonizing them. In my estimation, if
>metahumans are really dangerous enough to demand this kind of law, then 1
>year after you pass it you'll be living in the United States of
Metahumanity.
...this one isn't necessarily the case. There may merely be *enough*
metahumans who are this dangerous to warrant passing such a law, but also
enough who believe in civil liberties and human rights to keep those who
would conquer the nation (or the world) from achieving that goal.
Of course, the resulting battle would end up making many of our major cities
look like Sarajevo or Beirut-and that is the real danger that's cited in
most cases where Paranormal Registration Acts and such are proposed.
(bingo)
____________________________________________
>>Having the ability to do something and actually doing something are two
>>_entirely_ different things; this is a basis of law!
>
>Thats not true. HAVING fully automatic weapons is a crime,
But having the ability to acquire them is not. Similarly, being able to buy
illegal narcotics does not make you a criminal.
(Having metahuman powers is not a crime, refusing to register IS.)
> yet you've not
>committed any crime except for having the firearm. The perception is that
>the weapon cannot be used except for uses which are criminal in nature,
ergo
>it is illegal to have them unless properly registered.
But, this reason cannot apply to mutants, who can have _any_ power under the
sun. The use of mutant powers cannot de facto be assumed to be criminal in
nature.
(No, but it can be assumed that it MIGHT pose a threat if misused or there
even might be side effects which cannot be immediately detected by normal
senses which could cause a public hazard. Having these powers cataloged and
reviewed by experts to assure of their safety is what the Metahuman
Registration Act is about. A metahuman doesn't have to be a bad person to
unintentionally hurt someone.)
>a criminal by the letter of the law. Now, I will agree that a weapon is
>property and not an innate ability and you actually have a choice as to
>whether you purchase the weapon so you are then choosing to break the law
or
>not BUT if a mutant (in my game) does not willfully choose to register
>himself then he or she is making a choice as well. Having the power is not
>against the law....not REGISTERING it IS.
But then the question begs: What good does registering do the public?
Considering that the list is (supposed to be) kept secret, and no
restrictions are placed on mutants with 'controllable' powers, registration
is nothing but an invasion of privacy, isn't it?
(Not if it helps the public. If Fred has the ability to project fireballs
from his eyes but is a nice person, we all like Fred and think its a neat
party trick. If Fred is inadvertantly causing people cancer though and
didn't know it, we're less inclined to like Fred and wonder why he didn't
register to be fitted with special glasses which help shield his eyes from
giving off this dangerous radiation. If Fred had his glasses, then he don't
cause people cancer. Hey, do that fireball-from-your-eyes thing again,
Fred!)
>> If a person is in
>>stable mental condition, and has control of his powers, there is _no_
>reason
>>to punish them for having said powers. Only once they use their powers to
>>break the law does it become a problem.
>
>I happen to agree with you.... but I think it would still be a political
>reality. I don't have to LIKE the law to obey it.
We're not arguing that such a bill might show up. But it wouldn't last for
very long, if it got passed at all.
Let's also remember that laws are only obeyed by good citizens. Joe Evil
Mutant will not register and go on to commit crimes - will he worry about
breaking the law by not registering? I doubt it, he's too busy breaking
OTHER laws. So all the government does is wastes its time and money
registering law abiding mutants (oh, and incidentally prosecuting mutants
who commit no other crime than wishing to keep their powers secret for
whatever reason). It's stupid, it's not feasable, and it's constitutionally
insupportable.
(Gee, I happen to agree with you, BUT not one thing you've said can really
make me believe the law wouldn't be passed in say the early 70's and be kept
until today, unrepealled. Now, AMPERSAT's TACTICS have changed
significantly. After irritating the first few mutants and getting their
butts kicked, they had to change policy on implementing their registration.
Now, as far as wasting money goes, it IS making sure that metahumans don't
have seemingly harmless powers that may have dangerous side effects. I'd
hate for my water supply to be poisoned because Dr. Toxic doesn't know his
urine is a powerful nuerological poison that can't be removed by standard
filters in the cities water supply. Gee, that would suck and HARDLY seem
like a waste of money to little old taxpayer me who was paranoid about
"those" powered people.)
>>Maybe, but registering for the draft or driving a car does not subject you
>>to prejudice nor actual physical threat. If Genocide is known to be
around,
>>people will not want to register, for their own safety.
>>
>You act as if when you register it would then be public knowledge. If
>anything, you are given extra help to avoid such groups and an AMPERSAT
team
>WILL respond to defend metahumans from said nasty groups if necessary and
>EVEN help relocate the metahuman if necessary as part of a federal
>relocation program.
Gah. Why doesn't AMPERSAT just quit wasting time and crack down on Genocide
instead? Oh, and stating "the list is not public knowledge" means _nothing_
in a superhero setting.
(Genocide is NOT having public marches and AMPERSAT _IS_ trying to crack
down on Genocide/Impergium. Unfortunately Impergium members are not clearly
wearing banners stating that they are members of an illegal group. As for
the not public kowledge thing? It does mean something when you have secret
government metahuman agents with hunt/kill Zero tolerance programs on
hackers who hack government files. You won't find many people who will get
in... not and live to tell about it.)
>Could you PLEASE explain why the level of living would go down WHEN
>REGISTRATION IS NOT PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE! PLEASE read the posts more carefully,
>I've stated this a few times before.
Yes, but it's simply not believable. In a world where telepaths and
cyberkinetics exist (let alone desolids), and where there is technology to
match, there is only one way to keep a secret - make sure no one knows the
secret exists. The existance of the list is public knowledge, therefore any
organization capable of taking on superpowered mutants will be able to get
their hands on it. In extremis, Genocide could capture an AMPERSAT agent and
torture him for names. Easy.
(An AMPERSAT agent may know of one or two but not have complete access to
the list. They are assigned their paranormals and have limited access to
other paranormals unless they have higher clearance. Who has higher
clearance? Mostly agents whose identities are kept confidential. Again, I
know its a secret upon a secret but they've been doing this sort of thing
for a while and have developed several counter-measures to ensure the
privacy of the metahumans.)
It's not a matter of me not reading what you're writing, I am. It's just
that what you're stating is not logically acceptable. How would you
register? Go to an office? Make a phone call? What about Genocide
surveillance of such points?
(You can register with a call. An appointment is set up in an out of the way
place with an agent who is remotely contacted to meet you. No information is
given over the phone. If your phone is bugged anyway by Genocide/Impergium
then its probably already too late. They case the joint where you have been
told to meet you carefully and also case you quite carefully in case you are
an infiltrator. They do an identification check. You are escorted secretly
to a testing facility. You are in an enclosed vehicle going to a testing
facility that is not public knowledge. You don't even know where the Hell it
is (you should be getting uncomfortable as a metahuman at this point). You
are given an information packet which contains information on the tests that
you will be undergoing. You have the option of denying certain tests be
performed and you may volunteer for others but some tests ARE mandatory such
as the ones that check you for public safety and seeing if you pose an
environmental hazard or not. You are told which powers you are allowed to
use and which will be considered use of deadly weapons or environmentally
hazardous. You are treated politely and well by professional councelors at
all times and are tested, taking it at your own pace. Testing can take
several days in some instances but can mostly be done in the span of a 4
hour period. When finished, you are given a contact number for future
reference and are thanked. You are taken to another spot close by from where
you were taken and you go on your merry way. There are agents who you never
see in the bushes and woodwork making sure no agent or his charge is tailed
and constant encrypted communication is kept between these agents. They have
it down to a science.)
>>The main problem being that unless an unregistered mutant can be _very_
>>thoroughly researched, his/her power level is completely unquantified.
>>
>Which is why they are SO very cautious and pick their fights. I thought I
>went over this. They wouldn't jump someone in a crowded mall. They would do
>a LOT of surveillance and carefully catalog all they have seen.
Which begs the question; how many paranorms manifest each year, and the
further question: how much funding does AMPERSAT have, because it's going to
need a freaking _huge_ budget for all this!
(Yep, they gots a huge budget, all right. Only about 25 or so paranorms
surface each year, mostly young children whose parents, not knowing how to
deal with the situation, call AMPERSAT for special help. AMPERSAT's BIGGEST
reason for being is actually to respond to paranormal occurences and/or
metahuman terrorism, which is why they are funded so well. The government
wants metahumans monitored and for good reason and they want a group of
people they can rely on to help them out. The government doesn't want to
soeley rely on metahumans to take care of the paranormal occurences that
happen. That would instigate dependence on the metahumans to "save the day"
and reduce confidence in the government and its policies. Also, the
government can find which metahumans might be a problems later and secretly
have their lives socially re-engineered with secret agents pulling strings
to get the "kids" to grow up the way they WANT them to grow up.)
> Most likely
>they wouldn't try to take the person down as much as quietly approach them
>and ask them to register.
Err...why bother? Just say "Hi, we're AMPERSAT, we know you're a mutant and
have thus and thus powers. You are hereby registered. Have a nice day!" Do
you really need somebody to sign a form saying: Yes, I register that I'm a
mutant, yadda yadda?
(See the above AMPERSAT registration process. You do have to sign a form for
tests which you consent to but do not have to sign for the ones which are
mandatory.)
The point of somebody not registering means they want to keep thier powers a
secret. They probably will not use them in public. That, or they will use
them in public and start a career either as a supervillian or superhero. The
public should care little about the first group (who just want to be left
alone), and the second group pretty much points itself out, correct?
(Yep... and supers usually register and villains rarely do. Of course, when
they are arrested, they are thoroughly tested. Some criminals get registered
and tested and THEN go into a life of crime but that is a rare occurence.
Those that don't usually have extra years of Federal time tacked onto their
sentences.)
>>Bah, that's assumed! You actually think a _government_ could keep such a
>>list safe? They can't even balance budgets!
>
>You're preaching to the choir, reverend. As a matter of fact, a plot
thread
>is getting ready to start where someone actually manages to hack into the
>AMPERSAT network and will be holding a lot of secret identities hostage.
But
>anyway, yes I think they can keep this a secret. How many people know what
>the interior of Deep Red looks like. How many people know what the Hell
Deep
>Red IS? Anyone here know by heart the secret tunnel system below the White
>House? Can anyone even tell me how many CIA sponsored assassinations there
>were last year and who was hit? Yeah, thats what I thought. You think I'm
>over-estimating the government, I think your underestimating it.
Real world, yes, but we're talking a world with superpowers. The balance of
power shifts to where a single individual can have more information
gathering power than an entire government has information hiding power.
(What if that metahuman WORKS for the government.... or RUNS it?)
Additionally, if the world has organizations with enough firepower to take
on mutants (Genocide), they'll have enough power to break into any
government facility if need be. "Super" organizations taking over government
facilities is old hat in comics.
(What makes you think the government facilities in my world are push overs.
Metahumans taking then MAYBE but usually not armed forces of a group within
the U.S. Things are too tightly controlled in my game world. It MIGHT happen
but it would be the EXTREME exception to the rule.)
________________________________________________________________
>Not with the connections that AMPERSAT has. civilian job placements don't
>have an "in" with companies owned and/or operated by metahumans.
And after the MRA is passed, neither will the government. :]
(The groups may not like the government but if they showed up at the door
with a metahuman that needed help, very few "nice" groups would turn a new
metahuman in need away. The others? Well, lets just say the government can
make it tough on them. Most of these metahuman agencies and what-not work on
government contracts for one thing or another. I'd hate to see half my
business disappear.)
One of the problems I'm having here is with this near-Utopian view of Big
Brother AMPERSAT. The MRA is not the product of rational intellect or
concern for metahuman well-being, but of impulsive fear, resentment, and/or
bigotry. The agency that enforces it, thus, will in all likelihood also be a
product of fear, resentment, and/or bigotry, and this is going to be
reflected in its methods and policies.
(Not if they went at it the wrong way, got stomped and LEARNED from their
mistakes. Not to mention, we still have laws on the books against
homosexuality yet their are gay cops and even-minded cops who will look the
other way because they don't believe those laws are fair. AMPERSAT also has
a name for new agents who are blatantly bigotted to new metahumans and treat
them with little or no respect. They call them "smudges". Think about it.)
Now, this is your campaign, and I see you've done a lot of card-stacking to
keep the MRA and AMPERSAT in place. That's fine (and to show I can agree
with you more than once :], I buy that a Superman-like hero would
register -- Superman himself complied with the even more boneheaded
cease-n-desist order from Reagan in LEGENDS); if your players are enjoying
the idea, go for it.
I'm just saying, for me, it would strain suspension of disbelief.
(Now that I have explained the world and the sitution a little better, could
you see it now. Maybe having my ENTIRE world History would help too. If
anyone wants it, email me at baron@stlnet.com )
_________________________________________________________
> * Let us suppose that these mutants are actually powerful enough to
pose a
> natural hazard. In the real world, as opposed to that often less
> interesting place known as 'fiction', I suspect that most such
mutants
> would be simply drafted into the military (this is not an uncommon
> occurrence in the Wild Card novels, for example). Indeed, I would
think
> that 'signing up' would be 'firmly encouraged'. But if they are
> powerful enough to pose a threat, then they are certainly powerful
> enough to 'just say no' to registration acts. If you assume that the
> politicians considering such a bill have the facts available, then
they
> would have to be quite shortsighted not to realise that enforcing
such
> laws would be problematic. It's really a catch-22 situation - if you
> have the ability to force mutants to register, then they aren't
enough
> of a threat to require them to register. If you can't force them to
> register, then TRYING to do so will create precisely the public
threat
> that you are attempting to prevent.
This is a good argument why such a policy _shouldn't_ be implemented, but
I'm afraid I'm too cynical to buy it as an argument for why it _wouldn't_
happen. If people are paranoid about supers, a superhuman registration act
is going to look good at first glance; and in a democracy, ideas that sound
good when you don't think about them have a decent chance of becoming law.
(Everyone apparently assumes that AMPERSAT works ham-handedly with violence
against someone who doesn't register. They are FAR more devious and subtle
than that and usually rely on mental or social pressures. The old Iron hand
in the velvet glove routine. They view their tactics as the spoonful of
sugar that helps the medicine go down as they are VERY polite to metahumans
and seem genuinely supportive at all times.)
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Reply-To: <baron@stlnet.com>
From: "R Kemp" <baron@mail.stlnet.com>
To: "Champs" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Back to the Point (Part III) (American Privacy)(Pretty Long)
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 11:53:10 -0500
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For those who cry foul that registration would not be legal, we have the law
delving into our private lives constantly or enabling others do delve into
it with no laws to protect us.
Today, in some industries, taking a drug test is as routine as filling out a
job application.
In fact, workplace drug testing is up 277 percent from 1987 - despite the
fact that random drug testing is unfair, often inaccurate and unproven as a
means of stopping drug use.
But because there are few laws protecting our privacy in the workplace,
millions of American workers are tested yearly - even though they aren't
suspected of drug use.
Employers have the right to expect workers not to be high or drunk on the
job. But they shouldn't have the right to require employees to prove their
innocence by taking a drug test.
What about information you have a right to protect?
One in five adults in this country now regularly communicates and shops
electronically. Vast quantities of confidential and sensitive information
are stored in computers. They're also transferred electronically - via the
Internet - from individuals to banks, businesses and hospitals.
And the government wants to be able to read all of it.
The computer industry has developed a technology called "encryption" which
scrambles electronic information so it can't be easily read by prying eyes.
Citing the dangers of internet crime and terrorism, the federal government
also wants the tools to crack each individual's encryption code. But
millions of innocent people shouldn't have their own privacy put at risk
just so the government can listen for the guilty few.
Everyone who uses a phone - especially a cordless or cellular one - already
uses encryption. However, the government-approved encryption programs are so
weak they've already been broken. So, our privacy is already in jeopardy,
everyday.
The government should stay out of our private lives - and that applies to
computers, phones and the Internet, too.
And another thing about sex...
Twenty-one states still have laws criminalizing some forms of sexual
intimacy between consenting adults. In six states these laws apply
exclusively to same sex couples, and in the other fifteen various sexual
acts are proscribed for all adults.
What exactly is an illegal sex act? Some of the laws apply only to anal sex,
but most forbid oral sex as well. Depending on which survey figures you
choose, many or most adults living in those states have violated these laws.
Many of the same states still have criminal adultery laws, or even laws
prohibiting "fornication" between unmarried people, but it is an
extraordinary occasion when one of these laws is dusted off and put to use.
Criminal sodomy laws, in contrast, are regularly used to hurt people in
serious ways.
The first group of people hurt by these laws are gay and lesbian parents.
Criminal sodomy laws have been used to deny custody to parents all over the
country who are in every respect fit, solely on the basis of their sexual
orientation. The ACLU is currently involved in cases in Mississippi, North
Carolina, and Virginia.
Employers who wish to discriminate against gay men and lesbians offer these
laws as justification, even when the proscribed private activity is merely
inferred. The ACLU represented Robin Shahar of Georgia in a challenge to the
withdrawal of an offer of employment by the Georgia Attorney General's
Office when they learned of her lesbian relationship. She lost, in part,
because the Attorney General said the public would see it as inconsistent
for him to hire a lesbian in a committed relationship when he is charged
with defending the state's laws, including its sodomy law.
Police departments also use these laws in "sting" operations to entrap gay
men into inviting officers home. Imagine for a moment if such tactics were
used against straight men-a proposition in a singles bar becomes an
invitation to a "criminal" act. The ACLU has challenged such "sting"
operations in Kansas and Rhode Island.
Private behavior between consenting adults should be none of the government'
s business.
Most of the above was directly snipped from the American Civil Liberties
Union Webpage (www.aclu.org). If you really think the Metahuman registration
laws would be thrown out automatically in the "enlightened age" of the 90's,
then why haven't THESE laws been wiped away or changed in THIS day and age?
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From: "Marc Seebass" <kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net>
To: "BILL SVITAVSKY" <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us&> <CHAMP-L@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: 15 Points
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 12:07:16 -0500
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-----Original Message-----
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us>
To: CHAMP-L@sysabend.org <CHAMP-L@sysabend.org>
Date: Thursday, May 14, 1998 11:33 AM
Subject: RE: 15 Points
>
>ctaylor@cyberis.net wrote:
>
>>>>>
>
>
>It just seems to me that people are trying to play all powerful experienced
>guys to start with (I call this the Image effect), rather than the
beginning
>characters. You can do it with champions, just like you can make a party
of
>30th level God Killers in AD&D and (yawn) kill gods.... but just look back
>at the fun of making yourself a few teeny superpowers again! :)
>
><<<<<
>
>The Image effect? There are a lot of influences I'd ascribe to
>Image Comics (mostly bad ones), but I wouldn't say the notion of
>a hero who starts out powerful has any particular ties to Image.
>
>Look at some of the Golden Age heroes. While some were just
>regular people in costumes, folks like the Spectre, Dr. Fate, and
>Green Lantern started out immensely powerful. As you yourself
>observe, Iron Man is one of the FEW comics heroes for whom the
>experience model really works - and I'd say that's mainly due to
>the nature of escalating technology.
>
I suggest you check out reprints of early Spider-Man comics. Peter got
stronger faster, and improved his Web shooters and added new stuff like
spider tracers, and then he programmed them to work with his Spider sense.
Recently he added the impact webbing into his arsonal
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 10:24:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: 15 Points
To: CHAMP-L@sysabend.org
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---Marc Seebass wrote:
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us>
> >Look at some of the Golden Age heroes. While some were just
> >regular people in costumes, folks like the Spectre, Dr. Fate, and
> >Green Lantern started out immensely powerful. As you yourself
> >observe, Iron Man is one of the FEW comics heroes for whom the
> >experience model really works - and I'd say that's mainly due to
> >the nature of escalating technology.
> >
> I suggest you check out reprints of early Spider-Man comics. Peter got
> stronger faster, and improved his Web shooters and added new stuff
like
> spider tracers, and then he programmed them to work with his Spider
sense.
> Recently he added the impact webbing into his arsonal
Or even Superman, for that matter. Remember "Nothing less than a
bursting shell could pierce his skin"? By the end of WWII he was
shrugging off bursting shells like BBs, and by the mid 50's his
strength had reached epic (or perhaps silly) proportions.
Unfortunately, after that point, his powers escalate so rapidlly that
DC generally has to come up with a silly contrived story every 15-20
years to drop his power levels down a bit.
-=>John D.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 10:40:37 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: META: [was: Re: Back to the Point (DAMN LONG!))
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 09:35 AM 5/14/1998 -0700, John Desmarais wrote:
>Just for future reference, the original post from Robert
><baron@stlnet.com> was too long for several people's mailservers, I
>got bounces with an error message that the message to to large. The
>mailservers that complained had a limit of 40000 characters - I'd
>probably recommend keeping message well below 30000 (split the message
>into multiple parts), which would also make life a little easier for
>those folks who have very slow connections (with a particularly long
>message, they can choose not to open the subsequent parts if part 1
>didn't interest them).
Interestingly, I did get this in three separate parts, the largest of
which is 29K (and the total of which is over 50K).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:54:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Champions artists
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Thu, 14 May 1998, GoldRushG wrote:
> << "Kingdom of Champions" and "Mystic Masters" both had just terrible artwork
> , most of it his. >>
>
> And Ben Edlund did work in KOC, too. What do all those millions of Tick fans
> know about art, eh? ;)
If his stuff is all signed 'BE' then that was some of the better art, IMO.
> << I have no idea what his new stuff looks like, but based on past examples, I
> wouldn't want to see him name in the 'interior illustrations' listing. >>
>
> Fair enough. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. But I think it's
> prudent to reserve judgment until after you see these. ;)
Sure. I'm just stating my position based on what I've seen.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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From: Arknight 1 <Arknight1@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 14:09:05 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Trouble with Hero Games Web Page?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Hey guys...,
anyone else having trouble accessing the Hero Games Page?
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 14:25:58 -0400
To: CHAMP-L@sysabend.org
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: 15 Points
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 10:24 AM 5/14/98 -0700, John Desmarais wrote:
>---Marc Seebass wrote:
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us>
>> >Look at some of the Golden Age heroes. While some were just
>> >regular people in costumes, folks like the Spectre, Dr. Fate, and
>> >Green Lantern started out immensely powerful. As you yourself
>> >observe, Iron Man is one of the FEW comics heroes for whom the
>> >experience model really works - and I'd say that's mainly due to
>> >the nature of escalating technology.
>> >
>> I suggest you check out reprints of early Spider-Man comics. Peter got
>> stronger faster, and improved his Web shooters and added new stuff
>like
>> spider tracers, and then he programmed them to work with his Spider
>sense.
>> Recently he added the impact webbing into his arsonal
>
>Or even Superman, for that matter. Remember "Nothing less than a
>bursting shell could pierce his skin"? By the end of WWII he was
>shrugging off bursting shells like BBs, and by the mid 50's his
>strength had reached epic (or perhaps silly) proportions.
>Unfortunately, after that point, his powers escalate so rapidlly that
>DC generally has to come up with a silly contrived story every 15-20
>years to drop his power levels down a bit.
>
Yes, of course Superman's power levels have escalated over the years, as
have Spider-Man's and many others. But _experience_ plays a pretty minor
role in this escalation. Superman started off strong, and many of his "new"
powers (flight, extended strength, heat vision, etc.) are now assumed to
have been active since the beginning of his career. Moreover, I don't think
most established heroes are getting continually stronger. There's a big
difference between the Batman of Year One and Bats as he is currently, but
how much has he really changed in the last few years.
Experience, it seems to me, is the biggest holdover from D&D in current
RPG's, and one of the most persistent differences between RPG's and
adventure fiction. The rookie hero who significantly rises in power is a
special case in most comics, movies, etc. Comics rookie heroes have
included Firestorm, Kyle Rayner, most of the X-Men; a notable film hero
rookie is Luke Skywalker. But most heroes are NOT rookies. Sure, we see
flashbacks to Young Indiana Jones, Batman: Year One, and such, but the
primary versions of the heroes have an established power level and
generally stay there. How much has James Bond learned in the course of his
movies?
There's a common assumption in role-playing circles that playing weak,
inexperienced players makes for better role-playing than playing powerful
characters. While I certainly believe that nonpowerful characters provide
just as many opportunities for good play, I contend that powerful
characters offer some distinct and fascinating possibilities. And face it,
power fantasies are a big part of the superhero genre.
The main reason experience points remain so predominant in RPG's, I think,
is that players feel they should get some sort of reward for playing. I
think role-playing is its own reward; defeating a foe, solving a problem,
or just acting out a fascinating character should make an RPG satisfying
without some game mechanic for a pat on the head. My ideal RPG (which Hero
is otherwise pretty close to being) would have no experience system as
such, but rather would have a maintenance system in which some abilities
might decline due to disuse or age, while others might improve with
practice, study, or training.
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 11:27:13 -0700
To: Bob Greenwade <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: RE: Champions artists
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 09:11 AM 5/14/98 -0700, you wrote:
>At 10:57 PM 5/13/1998 -0700, Filksinger wrote:
>>> From: Bob Greenwade
>>> Hey folks, are David and I the only ones with this problem concerning
>>> published characters (the illos are great but we can't show them because
>>> they reveal too much information)?
>>
>>Not at all. I hate to post a "Me, too!" post, but that problem irritates
>me even more.
>
> OK, Mark, Steve, et al -- pay attention! This is an important note for
>*all* Hero Plus & GRG artists to keep in mind! :-]
Ok you gotta explain this to me... what problem??? the illustrations I have
seen are what you would see if you LOOKED at the villain, right? Exactly
how is that too revealing?
----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 11:30:59 -0700
To: BILL SVITAVSKY <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: RE: 15 Points
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>>It just seems to me that people are trying to play all powerful experienced
>>guys to start with (I call this the Image effect), rather than the beginning
>>characters. You can do it with champions, just like you can make a party of
>>30th level God Killers in AD&D and (yawn) kill gods.... but just look back
>>at the fun of making yourself a few teeny superpowers again! :)
>The Image effect? There are a lot of influences I'd ascribe to
>Image Comics (mostly bad ones), but I wouldn't say the notion of
>a hero who starts out powerful has any particular ties to Image.
Ok, I'll do this again, I dont honestly see how you can read Image in any
way without seeing it but ...
Take a look at every single Image Character (except some of the bad guys
that Larson made up for Savage Dragon heh heh). Almost all of them are x
character but better... This is MY wolverine, but hes stronger and more
deadly... this is MY superman but hes more godlike... this is MY green
arrow, but better!!! etc etc, ad infinitum.
Mind you most of these were the creations of the over rated Leifeld... his
inadequacies finally caught up with him, but you get my point (one of the
worst examples of this was Battalion: he is a soldier mentalist... in power
armor... that enhances his mental powers... like a guy with too many points
to spend, keeps adding things)
----------------------------------------------------------
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Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 11:39:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: META: [was: Re: Back to the Point (DAMN LONG!))
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
---Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> At 09:35 AM 5/14/1998 -0700, John Desmarais wrote:
> >Just for future reference, the original post from Robert
> ><baron@stlnet.com> was too long for several people's mailservers, I
> >got bounces with an error message that the message to to large. The
> >mailservers that complained had a limit of 40000 characters - I'd
> >probably recommend keeping message well below 30000 (split the
message
> >into multiple parts), which would also make life a little easier for
> >those folks who have very slow connections (with a particularly long
> >message, they can choose not to open the subsequent parts if part 1
> >didn't interest them).
>
> Interestingly, I did get this in three separate parts, the
largest of
> which is 29K (and the total of which is over 50K).
That sounds more like the three part followup from R Kemp than the
original from baron@stlnet.com.
==
John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org>
============================================
Got a question about the list? Just ask. Or, you can go
look over at www.sysabend.org/champions. I've been
slowly posting information about the list there.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 11:42:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Trouble with Hero Games Web Page?
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
---Arknight 1 wrote:
>
> Hey guys...,
>
> anyone else having trouble accessing the Hero Games Page?
>
Nope. Just checked it about 30 seconds ago, worked just fine.
==
John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org>
============================================
Got a question about the list? Just ask. Or, you can go
look over at www.sysabend.org/champions. I've been
slowly posting information about the list there.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 14:44:20 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Communicating damage
Cc: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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As a GM, how do you communicate the level of health of your villains? Do
you give updates like "barely scratched", "looking groggy", and so forth as
their STUN, BODY, or END goes down? Usually, I don't mention their level
of health too much until they get knocked out, and then I say something
like "he slumps to the ground and is quite still." The reason I ask is
because I'm not sure that my method is adequate....
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 14:44:27 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Champions artists
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade
> Checking the credits there, no, the interior illos in the VIPER
sourcebook were done by Storn Cook and Greg Smith. The best examples of
Scott's work are in Hero System Almanac 2 (especially the UNTIL section)
and Enemies Assemble (most impressive with the Factor 7 vehicles,
Exo-Skeleton Man, and SuperCharger).<
Ha...I don't have either of those books. I'm not interested in the
Almanac, seeing as H5 is on the way, but Enemies Assemble is at the very
top of my list along with Allies. I know that EA is part of the "gray
book" series...I have Atlantis and Pyramid in the Sky from that series, and
I found the art to be less than exciting (even the Storn Cook cover for
Pyramid...sometimes I'm just not crazy about his stuff (like the sample on
the San Angelo site), but usually it's above-par to me.
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Champions PBEM starting
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 11:48:10 -0700
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Four players are sought for a Champions Amalgam PBEM.
Character Base: 200 + 250
Disad Category Max: 60
Contact Electric Avatar at eavatar@rj.sol.com.br or by ICQ at 3291380.
The best four character concepts will be chosen to play.
Character concepts can be made by mixing a character from the
Fantastic Four with any character from DC Comics.
There will be an ICQ chat session based at early Avengers in this
universe.
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 11:57:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Communicating damage
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
---David Stallard wrote:
>
> As a GM, how do you communicate the level of health of your
villains? Do
> you give updates like "barely scratched", "looking groggy", and so
forth as
> their STUN, BODY, or END goes down? Usually, I don't mention their
level
> of health too much until they get knocked out, and then I say
something
> like "he slumps to the ground and is quite still." The reason I ask
is
> because I'm not sure that my method is adequate....
Whenever possible, I prefer to use "real world terminology" to
describe what's happening in a game, as opposed to "game mechanic
terminology". After all, most villians don't have an LED display on
their forehead showing Stun and Body, so the PCs really should only
have a slightly vague idea of how much damage they're doing. Besides,
I find that to many number flying around detract from the mood of the
game.
-=>John D.
_________________________________________________________
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 15:18:43 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: RE: Champions artists
To: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Cc: Bob Greenwade <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by Christopher Taylor
>Ok you gotta explain this to me... what problem??? the illustrations I
have
seen are what you would see if you LOOKED at the villain, right? Exactly
how is that too revealing?<
Some of the pictures have the villain exhibiting his powers, such as firing
an energy blast off-screen or clinging to a wall (Leech). If you show this
to the players when they first meet the villain, you've already given them
an idea of his/her capabilities that might not be obvious from just looking
at the villain standing there talking.
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 15:28:19 -0400
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Communicating damage
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 02:44 PM 5/14/98 -0400, David Stallard wrote:
>As a GM, how do you communicate the level of health of your villains? Do
>you give updates like "barely scratched", "looking groggy", and so forth as
>their STUN, BODY, or END goes down? Usually, I don't mention their level
>of health too much until they get knocked out, and then I say something
>like "he slumps to the ground and is quite still." The reason I ask is
>because I'm not sure that my method is adequate....
In general, I would say that the players need more information than
that. It's quite unrealistic for an entire team of supers to be
pounding away at a villain, only to have him drop without warning.
Use some descriptive phrases, like
- He takes the hit to the jaw and stares at you defiantly
- He grunts (screams, yells) loudly
- He winces and holds his chest as he swings
- He looks unsteady
- He's having trouble focusing
- He's losing a lot of blood
- He begins backing away (or looking for a way out)
When stunned:
- He drops to his knees and holds his head
- He drops his weapon and braces himself against a wall
- He doubles over and begins shaking his head
====================== =================================================
Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
====================== =================================================
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 15:38:44 -0400
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us>
To: CHAMP-L@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Communicating damage
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
John Desmarais wrote:
>>>>>
Whenever possible, I prefer to use "real world terminology" to
describe what's happening in a game, as opposed to "game mechanic
terminology". After all, most villians don't have an LED display on
their forehead showing Stun and Body, so the PCs really should only
have a slightly vague idea of how much damage they're doing. Besides,
I find that to many number flying around detract from the mood of the
game.
Me, too. Moreover, while many traditionalists object to it, I
really like the fact that the BBB Knocked Out chart shows that
0 to -10 STUN is not unconsciousness. Characters at that level
are not out cold, they've just been beaten to the point where they
can no longer get up and fight. Since this is a pretty common
state in which to end a fight, this eases the suspension of
disbelief why all these people aren't getting concussions all
the time.
I seem to be one of the few GM's who regularly makes this
distinction, and I have to be careful because of it - I've had
players assume that villains with STUN in the low negatives
were merely Stunned or at a low positive, so I remind people
of the actual rules when necessary.
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:27:53 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Communicating damage
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 07:01 PM 5/14/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Communicating damage
>Cc: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
>
>As a GM, how do you communicate the level of health of your villains? Do
>you give updates like "barely scratched", "looking groggy", and so forth as
>their STUN, BODY, or END goes down? Usually, I don't mention their level
>of health too much until they get knocked out, and then I say something
>like "he slumps to the ground and is quite still." The reason I ask is
>because I'm not sure that my method is adequate....
I'd say it probably isn't.
What I've generally done is based on the fact that almost all
characters' STUN is more than twice their BODY.
If a single attack does less than the target's REC, then the target
"barely felt" the blow.
Once the target has lost more STUN than his BODY total, he starts having
visible (albeit minor) problems with consciousness.
Once the target's current STUN is less than his BODY total, then he's
described as "on the ropes."
I'm considering some kind of rule (like a CON Roll) for when the
character's current STUN is less than his REC. I'm not absolutely sold on
such a rule; I'm just considering it. (This would be like the "groggy"
state in some martial arts video games.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 17:48:04 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Communicating damage
Cc: "[unknown]" <CHAMP-L@sysabend.org>
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>Whenever possible, I prefer to use "real world terminology" to
describe what's happening in a game, as opposed to "game mechanic
terminology". After all, most villians don't have an LED display on
their forehead showing Stun and Body, so the PCs really should only
have a slightly vague idea of how much damage they're doing. Besides,
I find that to many number flying around detract from the mood of the
game.<
Oh yeah, I would never actually give out numbers to tell the players how
bad off the villain was. I was just wondering if people usually give
updates after every attack, like "it looks like you hurt him with that
blast" or "your kick makes him grimace but doesn't seem to slow him down
too much" or whatever. I give updates every now and then, and when they
get knocked out I say almost the same thing every time (which is something
I need to work on): "He slumps to the floor and is very still."
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 21:54:42
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
To: CHAMP-L@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: [Re: Communicating damage]
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
owner-champ-l@sysabend.org wrote:
<snip>
> Me, too. Moreover, while many traditionalists object to it, I
> really like the fact that the BBB Knocked Out chart shows that
> 0 to -10 STUN is not unconsciousness. Characters at that level
> are not out cold, they've just been beaten to the point where they
> can no longer get up and fight. Since this is a pretty common
> state in which to end a fight, this eases the suspension of
> disbelief why all these people aren't getting concussions all
> the time.
>
> I seem to be one of the few GM's who regularly makes this
> distinction, and I have to be careful because of it - I've had
> players assume that villains with STUN in the low negatives
> were merely Stunned or at a low positive, so I remind people
> of the actual rules when necessary.
I always liked this one, myself. People in my campaign who are at low negatives don't always fall down, in fact. This fits well with the cinamatic and comic book conventions of an opponent who can barely stand, who is then given the coup de'grace that lays him out cold. This also helps avoid the problem of whether or not it is heroic to hit the barely conscious villain who is lying on the ground, but who will be conscious after one recovery.
Filksinger
____________________________________________________________________
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 18:34:46 -0500
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Champions artists
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Michael Surbrook wrote:
>Sorry, Mark. I have always felt I had much more artistic skill than
>Albert. "Kingdom of Champions" and "Mystic Masters" both had just
>terrible artwork , most of it his. I have no idea what his new stuff
>looks like, but based on past examples, I wouldn't want to see him name in
>the 'interior illustrations' listing.
Let me say up front that at present I have virtually no artistic ability
myself; I retain a pretty good eye for proportion and perpective, but not
much in the way of hand-eye coordination these days due to lack of
continued practice. I used to be very good, but that was long ago and far
away...
That out of the way, I begin to despair of these put downs of other
artists. We all have our personal preferences, and you are certainly
entitled to yours. I see little virtue in badmouthing other people's work
and rudely insisting not only that your own work is much better, but that
these guys you pooh-pooh shouldn't be allowed to draw for Hero books.
Based on the samples in your online gallery, I find your work entirely
adequate, but certainly not so much better that that of Mark or Al that I
would have felt the need to mention it, much less ridicule the other
artists in the process. Something about the pose you used for Lady Arachne
looks very familiar...not copied, just similar to or perhaps even inspired
by one I've seen elsewhere. I can't place it, but it might be a Steve
Woron picture I'm thinking of. But I digress.
I must admit to a degree of prejudice, since I am not over-fond of the
anime style to begin with, and some of your portraits have that influence.
Overall I found many of the poses stiff or awkward, the faces lacking
detail in some cases, etc. Again, more than I am currently capable of
producing by my own hand. But not, IMHO, manifestly superior to the work
of previously published artists.
Any chance you'd consider offering your opinion of other artists' work in
the future without slamming them?
Damon
awaiting the inevitable comeback(s)
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 18:05:58 -0700
To: Brad Cook <bcook@northernway.net&> champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Heroes Lethality
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
<x-rich>At 11:35 AM 5/14/98 -0400, you wrote:
> Another way to state the problem is that it is too easy to knock
>some one out without killing them. Take this example: A group of
>goblins have a magic item the characters need. Actual ownership is
>questionable, the characters have as legitmate a claim as the goblins
>who have the item in their possession. In Hero system the characters
>can go in and knock the goblins out, then take the item. No one gets
>hurt, there are no moral dilemas. In other systems, the characters
>would have to come up with some way to get what they want without
>fighting or live with killing their opponents.
> This was a feature of the pulp adventures as well, check out
>Farmer's "Apocalyptic Life of Doc Savage", Monk was repeatedly hit on
>the skull hard enough to knock him out without ever suffering brain
>damage. It isn't realistic but it isn't supposed to be.
>
>
Sooooo. This is a bad thing? In real life boxers knock each other out often. There are VERY few fatalities in the ring. There are very few examples of brain damage. Look at Mike Tyson (oops bad example) Or Muhamad Ali( oops again) Just kidding. Sure over repeated blows over years the damage could sink in on a permanent level, but that's up to the G.M. not mechanics to make that call. I myself have been knocked out from a blow to the head, & I certainly haven't suff... "Uhhh... What was I talking about?"
<center><italic><color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param>Sincerely Yours
</color><bold><underline><color><param>ffff,0000,0000</param><bigger>Eric
Chauvin
</bigger></color></underline></bold><color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param><smaller>calicajun@prtcl>
</smaller></color></italic></center>
</x-rich>
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 18:18:59 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: META: [was: Re: Back to the Point (DAMN LONG!))
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 11:39 AM 5/14/1998 -0700, John Desmarais wrote:
>---Bob Greenwade wrote:
>> Interestingly, I did get this in three separate parts, the largest of
>> which is 29K (and the total of which is over 50K).
>
>That sounds more like the three part followup from R Kemp than the
>original from baron@stlnet.com.
Now that I look at it, you're right. I don't think I've even seen that
original from baron@stlnet.com yet.
Put another way: That's different. Very different. Never mind. :-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 20:45:25 -0700
To: Bill Svitavsky <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: 15 Points
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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>Experience, it seems to me, is the biggest holdover from D&D in current
>RPG's, and one of the most persistent differences between RPG's and
>adventure fiction.
This has been a consistent point of mine for quite a while now. In fact, in
my Fantasy Hero games I have completely eliminated experience in favor of a
system of training and time. Players tell me what they want to train on...
they have to take the time and find someone to teach if needed, and they get
what they want. But if some skills are not used, they fade. Its really a
gut level thing, I dont have a system as such.
----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
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From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 23:49:14 -0400
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: META: [was: Re: Back to the Point (DAMN LONG!))
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On Thu, 14 May 1998 18:18:59 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 11:39 AM 5/14/1998 -0700, John Desmarais wrote:
>>---Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>> Interestingly, I did get this in three separate parts, the largest of
>>> which is 29K (and the total of which is over 50K).
>>
>>That sounds more like the three part followup from R Kemp than the
>>original from baron@stlnet.com.
>
> Now that I look at it, you're right. I don't think I've even seen that
>original from baron@stlnet.com yet.
> Put another way: That's different. Very different. Never mind. :-]
Your's may have been one of the mailservers that bounced it back for being to long.
John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org>
=================================================
Gotta question about the Champions Mailing list? Just ask.
Or, you can go look over at www.sysabend.org/champions.
Yeah, yeah, I know, it's ugly. I'll make the site prettier when
I have time.
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 21:22:14 -0700
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com>
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com
Organization: None
To: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net&> champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Champions artists/Al's Art
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Considering the frail egos paraded around in this list all the time you'd think we'd
be a bit more tolerant. Anyway, I feel that Al's art was fairly weak in MM with a
few exceptions. I liked his Warrior/Mage woman in Fantasy Hero and I liked his
Superman looking fellow on his websight. And I should remind you that artists styles
change and many grow and improve (or in Todd McFarlane and Rob Lifield's case get
worse). So I'd give the guy a second look. Dumping on him doesn't really bring any
thing to the list.
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 10:38:25 -0400
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Alternatives to Experience (Was Re: 15 Points)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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At 08:45 PM 5/14/98 -0700, Christopher Taylor wrote:
[I (Bill) said:]
>>Experience, it seems to me, is the biggest holdover from D&D in current
>>RPG's, and one of the most persistent differences between RPG's and
>>adventure fiction.
>
>This has been a consistent point of mine for quite a while now. In fact, in
>my Fantasy Hero games I have completely eliminated experience in favor of a
>system of training and time. Players tell me what they want to train on...
>they have to take the time and find someone to teach if needed, and they get
>what they want. But if some skills are not used, they fade. Its really a
>gut level thing, I dont have a system as such.
>
I've tried to come up with some time for a system to do this. My
inclination is to work "experience" something like budgeting in the
computer game Sim City; you have x points to spend, but many existing
abilities cost a certain amount to maintain. Thus, if you put all your
efforts into developing new skills, the neglected ones start to atrophy.
However, things shouldn't atrophy *too* far - I haven't spoken French in
years, and have lost most of my ability, but what remains will probably
stick with me the rest of my life. Perhaps a lowpoint for fading skills
should be established - say, half the points of it's peak level?
And then there are those abilities that shouldn't fade: abilities intrinsic
to a form. Depending on the character concept, these could be just about
anything - a being with a computer mind might retain skills it hasn't used
for thousands of years. This could be done with a mandatory allocation of
maintenance points, or perhaps some sort of special deal where for a fixed
cost a certain ability is immune to fading.
Unfortunately, by the time I work all these concerns into a concrete
system, it no longer fits in with the simple elegance of the Hero System.
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From: "Andreano, Keith HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com>
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Point totals of heroes in comics
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 10:04:37 -0500
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Question: What do you think the point totals are of typical
comic book heroes. Try to give a range (i.e. most fall between
X and Y points, with wimpy ones being around Z, etc.) I'm
interested in what people think (and I'm expecting a wide
variety of views). Also, what are the disadvantage totals like?
Flame away! ^_^;
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;
"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"
- Joan of Arc's .sig
Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 11:16:54 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Alternatives to Experience (Was Re: 15 Points)
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by Bill Svitavsky
>I've tried to come up with some time for a system to do this. My
inclination is to work "experience" something like budgeting in the
computer game Sim City; you have x points to spend, but many existing
abilities cost a certain amount to maintain. Thus, if you put all your
efforts into developing new skills, the neglected ones start to atrophy.
However, things shouldn't atrophy *too* far - I haven't spoken French in
years, and have lost most of my ability, but what remains will probably
stick with me the rest of my life. Perhaps a lowpoint for fading skills
should be established - say, half the points of it's peak level? <
A system like this is interesting but seems unnecessarily complex. To be
realistic, you would have to give discounts for players who regain
atrophied skills. For instance, if you were to get more training in
speaking French, it would not take you long at all to get back to your
former competency level since you are already familiar with the rules, etc.
Only once you reach your "old peak" should you start paying full cost to
increase it.
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 11:46:38 -0400
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Point totals of heroes in comics
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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At 10:04 AM 5/15/98 -0500, Andreano, Keith HIM,VA wrote:
>Question: What do you think the point totals are of typical
>comic book heroes. Try to give a range (i.e. most fall between
>X and Y points, with wimpy ones being around Z, etc.) I'm
>interested in what people think (and I'm expecting a wide
>variety of views). Also, what are the disadvantage totals like?
>
I'd say this depends a lot on who builds them, and how thorough they want
to be. If Batman spoke Finnish in one issue ten years ago, do you buy him
Language: Finnish? Do you buy him the Batboat, Whirlybat, and multiple
Batcaves even though he hardly uses him these days? Do you buy Superman his
Fortress of Solitude, Kryptonian Battlesuits, Contacts, etc.? Do you buy
Nightcrawler that KS: Old Movies, even though it's probably never been
relevent to his effectiveness as a superhero?
DC heroes would probably average slightly higher point costs than Marvel
ones, though not as much as in years past. I would probably build most
minor heroes around the 250 - 350 point range, the more impressive heroes
closer to 500 points, with big guns easily at 1000+ points.
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 11:50:39 -0400
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Alternatives to Experience (Was Re: 15 Points)
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>A system like this is interesting but seems unnecessarily complex. To be
>realistic, you would have to give discounts for players who regain
>atrophied skills. For instance, if you were to get more training in
>speaking French, it would not take you long at all to get back to your
>former competency level since you are already familiar with the rules, etc.
> Only once you reach your "old peak" should you start paying full cost to
>increase it.
>
I have to agree. I like the idea, but the record keeping would probably
get out of hand.
One other thing that you might keep in mind -- And this works whether
you use the standard points-for-skills method or this training method --
Characters with skills must keep them up. For instance, if your character
has Combat Piloting, there must be regular practice and periodic FAA
sanctioned testing in order to maintain the skill.
This provides lots of opportunities for scenarios.
====================== =================================================
Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
====================== =================================================
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 11:54:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Champions artists
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On Thu, 14 May 1998, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
> Michael Surbrook wrote:
> >Sorry, Mark. I have always felt I had much more artistic skill than
> >Albert. "Kingdom of Champions" and "Mystic Masters" both had just
> >terrible artwork , most of it his. I have no idea what his new stuff
> >looks like, but based on past examples, I wouldn't want to see him name in
> >the 'interior illustrations' listing.
>
> That out of the way, I begin to despair of these put downs of other
> artists. We all have our personal preferences, and you are certainly
> entitled to yours. I see little virtue in badmouthing other people's work
> and rudely insisting not only that your own work is much better, but that
> these guys you pooh-pooh shouldn't be allowed to draw for Hero books.
I didn't rudely insist anything, I stated *MY* opinion. I have very
strong opinions about such things, and I expressed them. Rat and Tim have
very strong opinions about Steve Long and Sean Fannon, and I don't hear
anyone getting defensive when they call Steve's stuff a 'crock'. I didn't
say Albert should be allowed to draw for anyone either, I justed stated my
opnion on seeing him listed as an illustrator.
I used to have the same opinions about AD&D products. David Trampier,
Jeff Dee, Jim Roslof, Erol Otis, these guys could draw and if a module had
their art, you could count on some nice pictures, OTOH: David Sutherland
and DSL (if forget his name) had pretty mediocre artwork and I hated to
see them listed as illustrators.
> Based on the samples in your online gallery, I find your work entirely
> adequate, but certainly not so much better that that of Mark or Al that I
> would have felt the need to mention it, much less ridicule the other
> artists in the process. Something about the pose you used for Lady Arachne
> looks very familiar...not copied, just similar to or perhaps even inspired
> by one I've seen elsewhere. I can't place it, but it might be a Steve
> Woron picture I'm thinking of. But I digress.
1 - I didn't ridicule. I said I thought his art was terrible. That's an
expressed opinion. If I had said Steve Long was a master of crocked rules
(ala Rat) would you have accused me of ridicule?
2 - I have no idea who Steve Woron is.
> I must admit to a degree of prejudice, since I am not over-fond of the
> anime style to begin with, and some of your portraits have that influence.
> Overall I found many of the poses stiff or awkward, the faces lacking
> detail in some cases, etc. Again, more than I am currently capable of
> producing by my own hand. But not, IMHO, manifestly superior to the work
> of previously published artists.
1 - much of the art is ment to depecit characters from an anime cinspired
campaign.
2 - Poses stiff and arkward? I take it then that you *haven't* look too
closesly at some of the poses out of MM and KoC? (or some other Hero
books. Look at TUM some time for stiff and awkward poses). I will say
that some of the pics used photos of real people as reference.
3 - Lack of detail. Well, many of those pics have been scanned in,
reduced and set for 72 dpi to create quickloading pics and not 100+k
monsters. I looked at pics done for other Hero books and don't see much
of a diference between the detail in the faces of my art and theirs.
4 - I never said 'manifestly superior'. I said I thought I was better
than Albert's stuff in MM and KoC. I am nowhere near as good as many
other Hero artists, including Scott Ruggels and (arggh... I just forgot
all their names). Okay, the guys who did "Watchers", or the guys who did
"Allies".
> Any chance you'd consider offering your opinion of other artists' work in
> the future without slamming them?
I gave a strong opinion about something I felt strongly about. Sorry if I
offended anyone.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 09:32:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Point totals of heroes in comics
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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---"Andreano, Keith HIM,VA" wrote:
>
> Question: What do you think the point totals are of typical
> comic book heroes. Try to give a range (i.e. most fall between
> X and Y points, with wimpy ones being around Z, etc.) I'm
> interested in what people think (and I'm expecting a wide
> variety of views). Also, what are the disadvantage totals like?
That kind of depends on your perspective. How would you define a
given character. As an example, lets take Superman (the classic, not
the blue energy thing).
Would you define his strength as "Strong enough to lift x kilograms"
or as "the strongest hero in the setting"?
If you try to go for the absolute, then you'll find that comic book
characters run the gambit from less than 250 points (many of them
really are just moderately skilled normalls with a clever toy - like
the Golden Age Sandman, he's got his gas gun and gas mask, a fair
array of inteligence based investgative skills, but very little in the
way of combat skills) to well over 1000 (Supes would fall into that
1000+ category).
Taking the relative approach though, using my own 250 (starting) point
campaigns, I'd put most published characters at being built on the
campaign average + an estimated experience level. As examples, the
new Starman would 250 points, but Superman would 250 + approx 50-100
XPs (with a STR of about 90 - well over the normal bricks in my games
which have a STR 50-60, putting him at the top of the chart for
strength in my games).
So, there is no real answer to your question (hell, even the game
systems based on DC and Marvel didn't try to make all of the published
characters cost the same).
-=>John D.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
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From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org&>
"Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 17:26:18 +0000
Subject: Re: Champions artists
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> > I'm just curious if anybody has any favorites among the artists who have
> > illustrated the various Champs books over the years. I'm bringing this
> up
> > because I've recently noticed that Storn Cook's art usually stands out to
> > me.
>
> Storn is one of my favorites as well. And I can tell you from
> personal experience that he also runs one HELL of a Champions game!
Greg Smith is my personal favorite--and he runs the BEST game under
any system that I've ever played in. I count myself lucky to have
been a player in his regular group.
Amy
----------------
Theala Sildorian
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!
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From: "Michael Nunn" <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
To: "Michael Surbrook" <susano@access.digex.net>
Cc: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Champions artists
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 12:28:19 -0500
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I just caught in on the last of this thread but...
I realize that Mark is paying for art, Albert is delvering it. Good or bad
that is just buisness.
I can say that I turned down an offer from Al for some art for Herozine a
couple of years ago.
Michael
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From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org, GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 17:28:43 +0000
Subject: Re: Champions artists
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> << The best examples of Scott's work are in Hero System Almanac 2
> and Enemies Assemble >>
>
> I rather like the cover of Hudson City Blues. :)
Atlantis was one of the best covers Hero has put out, IMHO. That one
was done by Greg Smith. My favorite Storn cover was TUM.
Amy
----------------
Theala Sildorian
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Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!
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From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 17:30:19 +0000
Subject: Unsubscribe
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
I am moving, and will have to get a new Internet account.
Unsubscribe, please.
Amy
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 12:39:23 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Problems with Hero 4th edition
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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> for strength, 1 DC for allocation of skills while 2D6 hand guns can be found
> scattered throughout the lists) body is going to be taken on a regular basis
> especially if hit locations and segmented armour is used. In the games we
> play, it doesn't pay to become attached to any particular character.
>
> Now this doesn't preclude various groups who wander around glowing
> like christmas trees in a fantasy setting or the average superagent having
> very high tech equipment, but then the level of threat should also be somewhat
> higher.
Um. Actually, you made your point up above with, "especially if
hit locations and segmented armour is used." If you want less lethality,
you cut out the optional rules that add to lethality. IF you want the
non-deadly Fantasy/Space/Whatever game, use less KAs and so forth.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 12:58:23 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Champions artists
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> I didn't rudely insist anything, I stated *MY* opinion. I have very
> strong opinions about such things, and I expressed them. Rat and Tim have
> very strong opinions about Steve Long and Sean Fannon, and I don't hear
> anyone getting defensive when they call Steve's stuff a 'crock'. I didn't
Er. Quick point of clarification. Rat calls their stuff "a
crock", I defend it.
Just to set the score straight.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 13:59:20 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Champions artists/Al's Art
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
<< So I'd give the guy a second look. >>
And you can check out one of Al's illos at
http://member.aol.com/goldrushg/siren.jpg
And while you're there, check out the San Angelo Times Online. ;)
Mark @ GRG
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Point totals of heroes in comics
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Date: 15 May 1998 14:17:53 -0400
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Andreano, Keith HIM,VA writes:
> Question: What do you think the point totals are of typical
> comic book heroes.
That varies tremendously, with these key factors (IMO):
The power level of the story. Superman and Batman are not built on the
same number of points, not even close. I could build a starting Batman
(going back to the 1920s and '30s) on 150-175 points, including
disasdvantages. For a similar era Superman I think I would need at least
200.
Whether or not the character is part of a team, or if he has a solo title.
Solo characters tend to be more powerful than team characters for a given
class of antagonists.
Whether or not the characters are the only "heroes" in the world.
Sometimes this is a factor; sometimes not.
How long the title has been running, and whether or not the publisher or
editors have "reset" the universe recently.
These are all for starting characters:
Pulp-era supers are generally under 200 points. They are frequently heroic
level charcters with access to strange abilities and devices beyond normal
understanding. Examples: the Shadow, the Phantom, Batman.
Silver and Golden Age supers are generally 225-275 points. This is where
Champions tends to put PCs. Examples: Superman, Captains America and
Marvel, Iron Man.
Modern supers vary widely, from as low as around 200 points to upwards of
500 points or more.
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 14:35:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Point totals of heroes in comics
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On 15 May 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> The power level of the story. Superman and Batman are not built on the
> same number of points, not even close. I could build a starting Batman
> (going back to the 1920s and '30s) on 150-175 points, including
> disasdvantages. For a similar era Superman I think I would need at least
> 200.
I recently did a write-up of Superman (1938) for the next issue of
Haymaker. He came to exactly 250 points. Now, I gave him an 18 DEX and a
4 SPD, mainly due to his ability to keep up with a speeding car. You
might be able to cut this back to 15/3. His leaping ability eats up the
most points, unless one gives him a lot of NCM superleap. But, no matter
how you look at it, he is very cheap. It might be possible to build a 200
point Supes, but it's would be tough mainly becuase he needs to be strong
and tough and that can suck up a lot of points there, leaving little for
his movement powers..
I'd post him here, but that wouldn't be fair to Dave (Haymaker's editor).
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 14:35:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Champions artists/Al's Art
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Fri, 15 May 1998, GoldRushG wrote:
> << So I'd give the guy a second look. >>
>
> And you can check out one of Al's illos at
>
> http://member.aol.com/goldrushg/siren.jpg
I got a file not found error...
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* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 14:43:36 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Why stick with HSR?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
The members of the Fuzion mailing list have been giving me plenty of good
reasons why I should move my Champions campaign over to the Fuzion rules.
However, I've only been getting one side of the story. Before their
brainwashing is complete (and I'll admit, Fuzion is looking a lot more
attractive now than it did when I first bought the Champions: New
Millennium book), I thought I'd give this list a chance to keep me in the
fold. I haven't decided either way, although I do intend to make a few
characters and run a mock combat in Fuzion to test some of the "goodies"
that they've told me about. Why do you think I'd be less happy switching
from Hero System Rules to Fuzion (obviously, this doesn't really apply to
the people who happily use both systems)?
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From: "Andreano, Keith HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com>
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: You know you have a bad GM when...
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 13:46:19 -0500
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
You know you have a bad GM when:
He starts doing a puppet show behind his
GM screen during the game.
You know you have a bad GM when:
He starts a betting pool on how long
the PCs will survive.
You know you have a bad GM when:
He comes to the game session naked.
Any others? ^_^;
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;
"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"
- Joan of Arc's .sig
Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Champions artists
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Tim R Gilberg writes:
> Er. Quick point of clarification. Rat calls their stuff "a
> crock",
So does Vox, at least some of the time.
My biggest gripe with their mechanics is that they buy tend to use powers
with, as Vox put it, the limitation "should have been purchased as a
skill". For instance, "Clinging" with the limitations "only for climbing"
and "requires a Climbing skill roll" -- if you make the Climbing skill
roll, what do you need Clinging for?
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
To: "'Michael Surbrook'" <susano@access.digex.net>
Cc: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Point totals of heroes in comics
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 12:00:10 -0700
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Mike Surbrook wrote:
>I'd post him here, but that wouldn't be fair to Dave (Haymaker's
editor).
It's no problem at all. Besides, there's a LOT more to your article than
a Superman write-up. Those who don't receive Haymaker won't get to see
your art, or read the other sections of your articles.
Hero is a universal system, and Haymaker is a universal magazine. We
aren't stuck on confidentiality and top secret stuff and privileged
information -- we're not a secret society or anything -- free exchange
of information is great. The authors retain full rights to their
submissions, so you're completely free to post parts of your article
here if you'd like.
Dave Mattingly
http://www.haymaker.org
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 15:05:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Champions artists/Al's Art
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Fri, 15 May 1998, GoldRushG wrote:
> << So I'd give the guy a second look. >>
>
> And you can check out one of Al's illos at
>
> http://member.aol.com/goldrushg/siren.jpg
WELL!
If the rest of Albert's stuff looks like this, I have no complaints.
Very nicely done piece.
How the hell did he do that background anyway?
I think my previous beef is that all of his other work look very rushed
and only partially finished. Something like that happened to Jeff Dee (of
AD&D and V&V fame). Back in the mid-80's he drew one way (and he did a
very nice job of it), now his style is completely different and very
(oh...) I dunno, flat I think.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 15:08:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Point totals of heroes in comics
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
So.... anyone want so see my 250 point attempt at Superman?
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 14:21:40 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Why stick with HSR?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> that they've told me about. Why do you think I'd be less happy switching
> from Hero System Rules to Fuzion (obviously, this doesn't really apply to
> the people who happily use both systems)?
What reasons are they giving you to switch?
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 12:27:51 -0700
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>Why do you think I'd be less happy switching
>from Hero System Rules to Fuzion?
Rhetorically, why are some people less happy switching from Old Coke to
New Coke? from Win 3.1 to Win 95? Why are '66 convertible 'vettes more
impressive than '96?
The real answer is that nobody likes change. It's only when the pain of
staying the same is greater than the pain of changing that people accept
it. The Fuzioneers believe that the pain of changing to Fuzion is less
than the pain of learning a new system and converting all their old
characters. The Hero Brigade believe that the pain of sticking with a
system that's hard to teach to newbies is less than the pain of changing
ingrained Hero thinking.
And some are drawn to the game worlds. BGC and Usagi fans flock to
Fuzion, but those who prefer more do-it-yourself games stick with what
they already know.
It's personal taste more than anything else. If one or the other makes
you happy, go with it. It's a game after all -- it's supposed to be fun.
Dave Mattingly
http://www.haymaker.org
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 15:28:54 -0400
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: RE: Point totals of heroes in comics
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 03:08 PM 5/15/98 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>So.... anyone want so see my 250 point attempt at Superman?
>
I would.
Look! Up in the sky! ...
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 15:32:09 -0400
From: Brad Cook <bcook@northernway.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Why stick with HSR?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
I do not understand what you see in Fuzion. I have not played in a
Fuzion campaign, I've only looked at the rules but I was not impressed.
There may be something I have missed. Please tell me some specifics of
why you are thinking about using the Fuzion system. I do not know how
to respond to your post without more details. I am also curious at to
what Fuzions good points are.
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 15:38:40 -0400
From: Brad Cook <bcook@northernway.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Clinging that requires Climbing roll
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
I view climbing as a mundane skill, useful for getting up a shear rock
face, but not for going up a glass smooth surface. Also, climbing often
prevents combat entirely, while clinging should not keep the character
from throwing a punch (although it might limit combat effectiveness).
Some mountaineering equipment could be considered clinging that requires
a climbing roll.
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 12:50:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dennis C Hwang <dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Champions artists
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On 15 May 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Tim R Gilberg writes:
>
> > Er. Quick point of clarification. Rat calls their stuff "a
> > crock",
>
> So does Vox, at least some of the time.
>
> My biggest gripe with their mechanics is that they buy tend to use powers
> with, as Vox put it, the limitation "should have been purchased as a
> skill". For instance, "Clinging" with the limitations "only for climbing"
> and "requires a Climbing skill roll" -- if you make the Climbing skill
> roll, what do you need Clinging for?
Not that I'm necessarily defending the construction, but maybe to allow
climbing on a surface for which the GM would disallow any normal Climbing
skill roll (sheer walls without grapples, pitons, or whatever, for
instance)?
--Dennis
*************************************************************
* dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu * xenopathologist at large! *
*************************************************************
* So...you're keeping me alive because you don't know *
* DOS. *
* *
* --Izzy to Gabriel *
* THE PROPHECY II *
*************************************************************
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 12:57:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Why stick with HSR?
To: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Cc: "\[unknown\]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
---David Stallard wrote:
>
> The members of the Fuzion mailing list have been giving me plenty of
good
> reasons why I should move my Champions campaign over to the Fuzion
rules.
> However, I've only been getting one side of the story. Before their
> brainwashing is complete (and I'll admit, Fuzion is looking a lot more
> attractive now than it did when I first bought the Champions: New
> Millennium book), I thought I'd give this list a chance to keep me
in the
> fold. I haven't decided either way, although I do intend to make a
few
> characters and run a mock combat in Fuzion to test some of the
"goodies"
> that they've told me about. Why do you think I'd be less happy
switching
> from Hero System Rules to Fuzion (obviously, this doesn't really
apply to
> the people who happily use both systems)?
Actually, there are a lot of things about Fuzion that I like, but in
the end the fact that Hero has a more fleshed-out power building
system is what keeps me using it.
-=>John D.
_________________________________________________________
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 13:02:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: You know you have a bad GM when...
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
---"Andreano, Keith HIM,VA" wrote:
>
> You know you have a bad GM when:
> He starts doing a puppet show behind his
> GM screen during the game.
>
> You know you have a bad GM when:
> He starts a betting pool on how long
> the PCs will survive.
>
> You know you have a bad GM when:
> He comes to the game session naked.
A naked GM is not always a bad thing - it depends on how cute she is.
-=>John D.
_________________________________________________________
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Clinging that requires Climbing roll
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 13:08:17 -0700
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
It also affects speed. The Climbing skill allows 2" of movement per
phase. Someone who wants to move at their normal movement rate can using
Clinging RASR Climbing.
Dave Mattingly
http://www.haymaker.org
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 13:09:49 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender: nexus@uky.campus.mci.net
To: Brad Cook <bcook@northernway.net>
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net>
Subject: Re: Clinging that requires Climbing roll
Cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 03:38 PM 5/15/98 -0400, Brad Cook wrote:
>I view climbing as a mundane skill, useful for getting up a shear rock
>face, but not for going up a glass smooth surface. Also, climbing often
>prevents combat entirely, while clinging should not keep the character
>from throwing a punch (although it might limit combat effectiveness).
>Some mountaineering equipment could be considered clinging that requires
>a climbing roll.
>
>
Clinging is also faster than climbing. Climbing movement is 1 hex per roll.
Clinging is normal movement.
I know violence doesn't solve all problems...
But it sure feels good!
Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 13:17:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Clinging that requires Climbing roll
To: Brad Cook <bcook@northernway.net&>
Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
---Brad Cook wrote:
>
> I view climbing as a mundane skill, useful for getting up a shear rock
> face, but not for going up a glass smooth surface. Also, climbing
often
> prevents combat entirely, while clinging should not keep the character
> from throwing a punch (although it might limit combat effectiveness).
> Some mountaineering equipment could be considered clinging that
requires
> a climbing roll.
I usually treated mountaineering equipment (in hero level games, not
superhero) as pluses to the characters Climbing Skill roll. (Clinging
allows for significantly faster movement than I felt a climber - even
with primo equipment - should be able to accomplish).
-=>John D.
_________________________________________________________
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Reply-To: "Lisa Hartjes" <beren@unforgettable.com>
From: "Lisa Hartjes" <beren@unforgettable.com>
To: "Hero System Listserv" <hero-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Disads gained through game play
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 16:19:13 -0400
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
If a PC managed to foil a villain's plans and the villain got mad enough
that he started Hunting the PC, how would you deal with it point-wise?
Would the PC get disad points for it? Would they get extra xp's? Would
they get a pat on the head and a "Way to go, you've pissed someone else
off." :)
How would you deal with it?
Lisa Hartjes
beren@unforgettable.com
Home: http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/daniken/79
"If men can run the world, why can't they stop wearing neckties?
How intelligent is it to start the day tying a little noose around your
neck?"
Linda Ellerbe
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From: "Andreano, Keith HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com>
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Point totals of heroes in comics
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 15:20:13 -0500
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>So.... anyone want so see my 250 point attempt at Superman?
Been there, done that. ^_^; It shows just how much things have
changed over the years. A modern day hero from a team like
the Avengers, etc., could go back in time and (being more points)
clean his clock. They could then come back and say "Hey, I
beat up Superman!" ^o^ Hmmm, maybe a villain will try that!
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;
"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"
- Joan of Arc's .sig
Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 13:36:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Disads gained through game play
To: Lisa Hartjes <beren@unforgettable.com&>
Hero System Listserv <hero-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
---Lisa Hartjes wrote:
>
> If a PC managed to foil a villain's plans and the villain got mad
enough
> that he started Hunting the PC, how would you deal with it point-wise?
> Would the PC get disad points for it? Would they get extra xp's?
Would
> they get a pat on the head and a "Way to go, you've pissed someone
else
> off." :)
>
> How would you deal with it?
Pretty much just like you described "congrats, you've got another
villain mad at you". Disads gained through game-play serve to enrich
the character, but don't give 'em no points.
If the character involved managed to piss off the bad guy by doing
something truely spectacular, you could always award some bonus XPs,
but I wouldn't give anywhere near what the disad would have been worth.
-=>John D.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 15:37:48 -0500
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net>
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Disads gained through game play
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Lisa Hartjes wrote:
>
> If a PC managed to foil a villain's plans and the villain got mad enough
> that he started Hunting the PC, how would you deal with it point-wise?
> Would the PC get disad points for it? Would they get extra xp's?
> Would they get a pat on the head and a "Way to go, you've pissed someone
> else off." :)
Definately the 'pat on the head, way to go' method.
Picking up hunteds is just a side effect of being a hero. If a GM were
to give me extra points for pissing off a villian, I'd be actively
trying to piss off every villian we ran in to.
If you wanted to be REALLY nice, you could let the hero 'cash in' a
different hunted (or other disad entirely) and replace it with the new
hunted.
Todd
--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Todd Hanson Minnesota: Land of two seasons:
BadTodd@dacmail.net winter is coming, winter is here.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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From: "Andreano, Keith HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com>
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 15:45:22 -0500
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>Actually, there are a lot of things about Fuzion that I like,
but in
>the end the fact that Hero has a more fleshed-out power
building
>system is what keeps me using it.
>-=>John D.
Good point. Also, the main reason people give for switching to
Fuzion is that its easier. I bought it, played around with it, and
I think its MORE COMPLICATED that the standard hero system!
Also, has anyone translated the Champions team members
from C:TNM back to Hero 4th edition? I played around with
it and they do not come out as 250 point characters. Anyone
get different results? Inquiring Pumas want to know!
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;
"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"
- Joan of Arc's .sig
Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 16:46:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Hero System Listserv <hero-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Disads gained through game play
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Fri, 15 May 1998, Lisa Hartjes wrote:
> If a PC managed to foil a villain's plans and the villain got mad enough
> that he started Hunting the PC, how would you deal with it point-wise?
> Would the PC get disad points for it? Would they get extra xp's? Would
> they get a pat on the head and a "Way to go, you've pissed someone else
> off." :)
Give them a pat on the head. Unless the player is redesigning his
character (or if he wants to drop another Hunted), things like this are
part of the job description. If the player wants to redo the character
(rewrite it more intelligently, redesign sections, have a radiation
accident) then he can get points for new Hunted and the like, but still,
he usally ends up removing older ones.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 16:48:33 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Why stick with HSR?
To: HSR <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Since more than one person asked how the Fuzion mailing list was trying to
sell me on switching to Fuzion, I decided to forward a message from Sean
Fannon. I got lots of other messages, but I think his does the best job of
summarizing the good points that have been brought up. The only thing he
might not emphasize enough is that everyone on the list (with one
exception) finds that Fuzion combat is resolved 2-3 times faster than HSR
combat.
My main reason for deciding to reconsider Fuzion was because a few weeks
ago I started developing this frustration with the length of HSR combat.
It seems like our story progresses very little each session, because we are
wrapped up in combat all the time (this is a campaign with 2 PCs, 2-3
combats per session, 5-6 hours per session). I have never had a problem
with this, but I started thinking back on my earlier days of gaming (AD&D,
etc) and realized that we used to get a lot more done in a session. The
answer is not to reduce the frequency of combat, because my group (myself
included) loves a good fight between superpowered beings--it's as much a
highlight of our games as is puzzle-solving or other aspects of RPing.
Like I said, I'm split right down the middle.... I *am* committed to a
re-reading of the Fuzion rules (and the errata in the 2 supplements),
creating a few characters, and running a mock combat, but that might be as
far as I go toward a conversion to Fuzion. Since it makes sense that the
Fuzion mailing list would paint me a real rosy picture, I thought it was
only prudent to let this list either paint me a rosy picture of HSR, or
make the Fuzion picture less rosy.
So, here's Sean's message. Feel free to rebut these, or bring up things
that I will be giving up if I leave HSR (being an experienced HSR player,
I'm aware of some already). I'm a little nervous about this starting a
huge "HSR vs Fuzion" flame war, so please try to temper your responses.
-------------Forwarded Message-----------------
I am sorry it took me so long to weigh in here, but I have been (happily)
buried under numerous projects and obligations.
I'm not certain, but I may well have been the very first "Fuzion Fanboy."
At
the very least, I am one of them. I've been on this bus since it was called
"Instant Hero."
If I may, I would like to outline the Six Key Reasons that I think Fuzion
is
the best game system on the market. It is discussed in terms of Hero, since
I
originally thought Hero System was the greatest game system ever done (and
it
still stands as the Proud Papa, in my opinion, of its lean, mean, fighting
trim Sonny Boy, Fuzion).
1) HIGHLY INTUITIVE
Role-Playing Games are about Entertainment above all else. There aren't
that
many people who want to work all that hard on their liesure activities.
Even
those that do prefer tools and equipment that makes it easier for them to
get
at the "meat" of the activity.
For example, Rock Climbers -do- work really hard on their liesure pursuits.
However, they generally prefer state-of-the-art gear that makes life safer
and
easier for them. They tend to rely on sturdy, light-weight, easy-to-use
items
that are intuitively simple to manage.
RPG players are best served by a robust, flexible set of core mechanics
that
is easy to grasp coming out of the gate. The longer it takes for someone to
gain "expertise" in a set of game mechanics, the longer it will take them
to
decide to become a Game Master. The longer that takes, the more our Hobby
suffers - this medium has always suffered at least in part because the GM
role
is so daunting and effort-intensive.
Fuzion (despite what I feel are some problematic choices in terms of
presentation and layout in the earliest products) is exactly that game
system.
At its core lies simple addition (the easiest form of math to understand).
It
requires simple addition to build a character (with some subtraction at
some
stages). It requires simple addition and the comparison of simple numbers
for
all Conflicts and Task resolution. For that matter, all Skill and Combat
Resolution is on the same track, significantly lessening the learning
curve.
The damage and effects aspects are (mostly) simple subtractive or
comparitive
systems (the few exceptions are easy enough to correct, IMO).
Because of all this, any would-be Game Master will discover that it is very
easy to understand the basics of how the game works, which will easily lead
to
a sense of confidence in being able to run a game based on these mechanics.
2) NEWBIE FRIENDLY
For most of the reasons I detailed above, this game is extremely friendly
to
brand new players. Granted, they will often be intimidated by the way it is
presented in many of the current books that feature it (one of my biggest
gripes with current Fuzion products, and one of the reasons I treasure
Usagi
Yojimbo so much).
However, it takes mere minutes to explain how to play Fuzion to a brand new
player. In addition, long-term "haters of game mechanics" find Fuzion
considerably easier to swallow. Those that resisted learning Hero System
(such
as my wife, who would play but refused to deal with the complex math any
more
than necessary, because she couldn't stand the idea of working that hard at
something that was supposed to be fun) have little trouble immersing
themselves in the mechanics of how Fuzion runs.
3) SPEED
One of the longest-running complaints about Hero System has always been
regarding the amount of time it takes to do anything in it. Character
creation
takes "forever." Combat takes "freaking forever."
With the math simplified and the fat trimmed off the real meat, Fuzion is a
much -faster- game system, which makes it superior in the eyes of most
everyone I know (including myself). Not all, I'll admit. Most, however,
truly
enjoy getting in more overall game play in a session because of the ease
and
quickness of Fuzion.
4) EASIER TO PREP FOR AND RUN
Combining all of the previous points into one, I get to my favorite point -
I
can prep a Fuzion-based scenario in minutes if I have to, and I can create
Bad
Guys on the fly with a much stronger sense of confidence in their abilities
and their balance than I ever could in Hero System (or any other game).
Using Instant Fuzion Stats (PHY, MEN, COM, MOV), I can whip out a fully
realized critter or persona like lightning. The entire "plug-and-play"
construct makes running a game a dream comparitively.
It is also considerably easier to spot-fix ANYTHING. Just have them roll
some
dice and add whatever makes sense. Add ANY Stat to ANY Skill (or, in some
cases, just have them double the appropriate Stat). You like the number
rolled? They do OK. Don't like the number? Oh well...
If you want to add some spice, use "levels of success." Start with Target
Number 14 for minimum achievement, then go up by 4 (or whatever you like)
for
each level of added effect.
Meditation roll (WILL + Meditation) of 14 gets you a semi-awake state
(Light
Sleep) for the evening, but you still get full rest. 18 means you only need
2/3 the rest time. 22 means you need 1/2. 26 means you need only an hour...
5) EASIER TO TINKER
That "plug-and-play" modular concept simply rocks. Don't like how something
is
done? Rip it out and add your own "plug in."
For example, I don't like how Figured Characteristics are handled
currently.
Thus, I've created a Plug In for "White Silver, Blood Steel: The Shaintar
Chronicles" called DCEs: Derived Characteristic Enhancements. You but them
like Talents (3 points a piece) and they give you the appropriate levels of
some Derived Stat for cheaper than if you bought the Primary or Primaries
needed.
Want a new Stat? I created SPIRIT (under MENTAL) and the Derived Essence
(SPI
x5). It does nothing to harm or impinge on the rest of the core mechanics.
Furthermore, if a character from another game were brought into this one,
it
would be simplicity itself to add these elements (Average out their other
MEN
Stats and that will be their SPIRIT).
Need new Skills? Slap them on. Want to create Racial or Professional
"packages?" Man, are they easy. Think there should be new Basic Maneuvers?
It's a much easier task to eyeball the overall structure and get a fair
result.
A system this easy to tinker with means no Game Master should feel unable
to
make the game wholly theirs.
5) GREATER BALANCING
The Rule of X is a brilliant addition that makes every Game Master's life
much
easier than it ever was in Hero System. Knowing the overall combat power of
the Heroes makes creating adventures and Bad Guys a far less "darkly
mysterious" task, since you know what ball park to shoot for in terms of
overall ability without having to carefully evaluate each aspect (attacks,
defenses, skill levels).
RoX also makes adding new Players and Characters far less a headache than
ever
before. You know where everyone else is, power-level-wise, so it's easy to
adjust new characters to fit.
"Bring Your Own Character" Con runs will also be pretty cool using this; so
long as the Player is willing to "trim" something to fit the run, their
overall character will work out no matter how many points they spent.
Wow. I went on a bit longer than I expected... but I am very passionate
about
this game system.
I hope this is of assistance to someone...
Sean
# The Fuzion Mailing List -- fuzion@dour.org --
http://dour.org/jason/fuzion/
# To unsubscribe, send mail to lists@pjh.org.
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From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: help!
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 15:58:35 CDT
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Well, a 'friend' has walked off with my copy of AC #23; does anyone have
'Base Times for Skills', by Geoff Speare and Riley McLaughlin, on the
net somewhere? I really, really found that article useful...
DonM.
--
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems (217) 239-8365 =
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 17:10:16 -0400
To: <hero-l@sysabend.org>
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Disads gained through game play
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 04:19 PM 5/15/98 -0400, Lisa Hartjes wrote:
>If a PC managed to foil a villain's plans and the villain got mad enough
>that he started Hunting the PC, how would you deal with it point-wise?
>Would the PC get disad points for it? Would they get extra xp's? Would
>they get a pat on the head and a "Way to go, you've pissed someone else
>off." :)
>
>How would you deal with it?
>
A 0-point hunted.
It's really paid for in the experience the character gains over
periodic encounters with the villain.
====================== =================================================
Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
====================== =================================================
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: Hero System Listserv <hero-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Disads gained through game play
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 17:14:22 -0400
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Friday, May 15, 1998 4:19 PM, Lisa Hartjes [SMTP:beren@unforgettable.com]
wrote:
> If a PC managed to foil a villain's plans and the villain got mad enough
> that he started Hunting the PC, how would you deal with it point-wise?
> Would the PC get disad points for it? Would they get extra xp's? Would
> they get a pat on the head and a "Way to go, you've pissed someone else
> off." :)
>
> How would you deal with it?
>
> Lisa Hartjes
> beren@unforgettable.com
>
Pat on the head.
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 17:16:30 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR?
Cc: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by "Andreano, Keith HIM,VA"
>Also, has anyone translated the Champions team members
from C:TNM back to Hero 4th edition? I played around with
it and they do not come out as 250 point characters. Anyone
get different results? Inquiring Pumas want to know!<
The conversions to H4 are at http://www.herogames.com, under the Digital
Hero section.
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 17:18:26 -0400
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Friday, May 15, 1998 3:28 PM, Dave Mattingly
[SMTP:dmattingly@platsoft.com] wrote:
> >Why do you think I'd be less happy switching
> >from Hero System Rules to Fuzion?
>
Asking Fuzioneers "What's good about Fuzion?" was a good idea.
Asking Heroeers "Why should I not go to Fuzion?" is a bad idea.
What matters is your personal taste. You have played Hero for a while. Now
play Fuzion for a while. Then go with what works best for you.
Jason Goode,
who is doing exactly that...
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Champions artists
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Date: 15 May 1998 17:20:20 -0400
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Dennis C Hwang writes:
> Not that I'm necessarily defending the construction, but maybe to allow
> climbing on a surface for which the GM would disallow any normal Climbing
> skill roll (sheer walls without grapples, pitons, or whatever, for
> instance)?
Then what purpose does the "requires Climbing skill roll" serve, other than
to make the power cheaper?
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Disads gained through game play
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Michael Surbrook writes:
> Give them a pat on the head. [...]
About the size of it.
Characters cannot gain points from disadvantages acquired during play.
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From: "Andreano, Keith HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com>
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Disads gained through game play
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 16:37:43 -0500
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>Give them a pat on the head. Unless the player is redesigning
his
>character (or if he wants to drop another Hunted), things like
this are
>part of the job description. If the player wants to redo the
character
>(rewrite it more intelligently, redesign sections, have a
radiation
>accident) then he can get points for new Hunted and the like,
but still,
>he usally ends up removing older ones.
I allow new hunteds to replace old ones, it makes sense. One hunted
stops bothering you because they have been unsuccessful and you
are not worth the effort (loosing villain bases, etc.). The new one has
yet to feel your flying fists of justice for a long period, so they are
after you now thinking "we can get him!". ^_^; I also allow a rotating
hunted. Just like DNPCs can rotate (i.e.. current girlfriend) hunteds
can too (i.e.. current people that want me dead). It fits the genre!
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;
"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"
- Joan of Arc's .sig
Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 17:40:44 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR?
Cc: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by "Goode, Jason"
>Asking Fuzioneers "What's good about Fuzion?" was a good idea.
Asking Heroeers "Why should I not go to Fuzion?" is a bad idea.
<
Agreed. What I really meant to ask the Heroeers is:
"What's good about HSR which is not as good in Fuzion?"
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From: Miq Millman <miq@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Champions artists
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 14:43:11 -0700 (PDT)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> > Not that I'm necessarily defending the construction, but maybe to allow
> > climbing on a surface for which the GM would disallow any normal Climbing
> > skill roll (sheer walls without grapples, pitons, or whatever, for
> > instance)?
>
> Then what purpose does the "requires Climbing skill roll" serve, other than
> to make the power cheaper?
To reflect that it isn't an inherent ability, that any Joe Schmoe can use.
Example: suction cups that require a valve to be opened and closed upon
each use to move them. These could allow you to climb up a sheer surface
like a glass skyscraper, provided you had the skill to climb and knew how
to use them.
Of course, by clinging you also increase your rate as others have posted.
--
__
Miq Millman miq@teleport.com
Tualatin, OR
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Why stick with HSR?
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Date: 15 May 1998 17:48:00 -0400
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David Stallard writes:
> The members of the Fuzion mailing list have been giving me plenty of good
> reasons why I should move my Champions campaign over to the Fuzion rules.
> [...]
A character built with the core Hero rules can, within reason, be placed
within any setting without modification.
There is no "core" Fuzion rulebook or ruleset in the same sense that there
is a core Hero system. Instead, like GURPS, there are campaign books with
their own unique mechanics. These mechanics tend not to be particularly
portable between settings.
Both Hero and Interlock have had many years to mature, and in their current
incarnations (4th edition Champions, Mekton Zeta) are quite solid. Their
inconsistancies and limitations are well-known.
Fuzion is a fledgling system, still being developped (currently the Fuzion
version of Mekton Zeta). The inconsistancies and limitations are still
being discovered, while at the same time new ones are being introduced.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Champions artists
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Miq Millman writes:
>> Then what purpose does the "requires Climbing skill roll" serve, other
>> than to make the power cheaper?
> To reflect that it isn't an inherent ability, that any Joe Schmoe can
> use.
That is a special effect. Or a Focus. Or Only In Heroic ID. It is not
"requires Climbing skill roll".
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com>
To: "Champs List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Champions artists
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 18:19:36 -0500
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>That is a special effect. Or a Focus. Or Only In Heroic ID. It is not
>"requires Climbing skill roll".
You are correct, however, that the focus limitation would be appropriate.
But, if that focus is difficult to use a skill roll concerning its use is
justified.
Alan
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From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
To: "Hero System Listserv" <hero-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Disads gained through game play
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 18:24:31 -0500
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Be sure to include some game-play where the old Disad is resolved. If an
old enemy stops hunting a PC, be sure to explain WHY (e.g.the PC is
actually his long lost son; the PC saves the life of the villain, and he
considers them to be "even", etc.)
A Psych Lim is tougher; it might be easier to gradually buy it down (the PC
has found religion/gotten counselling/had brain surgery); however, remember
Guy Gardner's hilarious change of personality in the "humorous" JLA? He
became incredibly nice and considerate as the result of a blow to the head,
and snapped back as the result of another blow. This might simplu be
exchanging one 25-point Psych Lim temporarily for another. But I digress...
A Phys Lim can be cured by therapy, bionic implants, an offering to the god
of healing, whatever's appropriate to your campaign.
You can probably see where I'm going with this: DON'T just let 'em exchange
points, play it out. It will result in more complex and better developed
characters in the long run.
Guy
----------
> From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
> To: Hero System Listserv <hero-l@sysabend.org&> Lisa Hartjes
<beren@unforgettable.com>
> Subject: Re: Disads gained through game play
> Date: Friday, May 15, 1998 6:29 PM
>
> On Fri, 15 May 1998 16:19:13 -0400, Lisa Hartjes wrote:
>
> >If a PC managed to foil a villain's plans and the villain got mad enough
> >that he started Hunting the PC, how would you deal with it point-wise?
> >Would the PC get disad points for it? Would they get extra xp's? Would
> >they get a pat on the head and a "Way to go, you've pissed someone else
> >off." :)
> >
> >How would you deal with it?
>
> They get a pat on the back. But don't forget that when that nemesis
> turns up they'll be the focal character and have opportunities for
> bonus XP. It is actually self-balancing.
>
> Example: Morgath the warrior truly annoys the dark wizard Mogrith by
> killing him. When Mogrith rises as a liche, the fun *really* begins.
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: "Hero System Listserv" <hero-l@sysabend.org&>
"Lisa Hartjes" <beren@unforgettable.com>
Date: Fri, 15 May 98 23:29:15
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Disads gained through game play
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Fri, 15 May 1998 16:19:13 -0400, Lisa Hartjes wrote:
>If a PC managed to foil a villain's plans and the villain got mad enough
>that he started Hunting the PC, how would you deal with it point-wise?
>Would the PC get disad points for it? Would they get extra xp's? Would
>they get a pat on the head and a "Way to go, you've pissed someone else
>off." :)
>
>How would you deal with it?
They get a pat on the back. But don't forget that when that nemesis
turns up they'll be the focal character and have opportunities for
bonus XP. It is actually self-balancing.
Example: Morgath the warrior truly annoys the dark wizard Mogrith by
killing him. When Mogrith rises as a liche, the fun *really* begins.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com>
To: "Champs List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Quotes at top (was RE: The Ultimate Quote)
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 18:34:19 -0500
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>>> > > Microsoft: Where do you want to go today?
>>> > >
>>> > > Macintosh: Where do you want to be _tomorrow_?
>>> >
>>> > Unix: Do you actually want to get there?
>>>
>>> os2: why not go here instead?
>>
>> Tandy: "Where are we going?"
>
> CP/M: "Oh... we were going somewhere?"
DOS: "Been there. Done that. Wrote the book."
Bad Command of Filename
Abort, Retry, Fail?
Alan
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 18:37:13 -0500
To: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Alternatives to Experience (Was Re: 15 Points)
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>A system like this is interesting but seems unnecessarily complex. To be
>realistic, you would have to give discounts for players who regain
>atrophied skills. For instance, if you were to get more training in
>speaking French, it would not take you long at all to get back to your
>former competency level since you are already familiar with the rules, etc.
> Only once you reach your "old peak" should you start paying full cost to
>increase it.
Why pay for it twice? Just let a full Skill fade to a Familiarity through
lack of use, and consider that a situational modifier. Given some time to
practice and "brush up" on the Skill again, the situational modifier gets
removed, perhaps in stages (8-, 9-, 10-, etc. up to the original Skill
Roll). No need to buy it again.
Damon
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 16:54:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dennis C Hwang <dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Champions artists
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On 15 May 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Dennis C Hwang writes:
>
> > Not that I'm necessarily defending the construction, but maybe to allow
> > climbing on a surface for which the GM would disallow any normal Climbing
> > skill roll (sheer walls without grapples, pitons, or whatever, for
> > instance)?
>
> Then what purpose does the "requires Climbing skill roll" serve, other than
> to make the power cheaper?
My guess (again, not knowing the basis for this construction as described
in whatever source it came from) is that it's intended to simulate a
"super skill" (which still has a chance of failing, but allows for more
spectacular results from a success) as opposed to, say, the mechanic
behind "gecko feet" or "human fly" or "spider climbing" powers, which
don't really depend on the possessor's skill in climbing to function.
--Dennis
*************************************************************
* dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu * xenopathologist at large! *
*************************************************************
* So...you're keeping me alive because you don't know *
* DOS. *
* *
* --Izzy to Gabriel *
* THE PROPHECY II *
*************************************************************
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 19:47:40 -0500
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Champions artists
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>I didn't rudely insist anything, I stated *MY* opinion. I have very
>strong opinions about such things, and I expressed them. Rat and Tim have
>very strong opinions about Steve Long and Sean Fannon, and I don't hear
>anyone getting defensive when they call Steve's stuff a 'crock'. I didn't
>say Albert should be allowed to draw for anyone either, I justed stated my
>opnion on seeing him listed as an illustrator.
a) Okay, I inferred rudeness from your unflattering statements about their
work.
b) If you haven't noticed Rat, Tim or others being taken to task over their
expressed opinions, perhaps it's because they don't often make a point of
singling out a Hero author by name and claiming that all of that author's
work is terrible, that they dread seeing his name on a product as a
contributing author, or claim that their own body of work is "much better".
c) I'm sure you wouldn't want his work to be used uncredited; if you don't
want to see his name in the credits, you don't want to see his work in the
book.
>I used to have the same opinions about AD&D products. David Trampier,
>Jeff Dee, Jim Roslof, Erol Otis, these guys could draw and if a module had
>their art, you could count on some nice pictures, OTOH: David Sutherland
>and DSL (if forget his name) had pretty mediocre artwork and I hated to
>see them listed as illustrators.
Maybe if you'd had some nice things to say about contributing Hero authors
earlier, those of us who've commented on your negativity wouldn't have felt
the need to do so. But in 2 out of 2 cases that I'd seen at the time I
posted my comments, the whole substance of your statements was "<Artist
X>'s work is terrible. I can draw much better than that." I'd have found
it much more palatable if you'd said "I don't care for Artist A, but I like
Artist B's work a lot" (as long as B wasn't you).
>1 - I didn't ridicule. I said I thought his art was terrible. That's an
>expressed opinion. If I had said Steve Long was a master of crocked rules
>(ala Rat) would you have accused me of ridicule?
If you had said Steve Long's body of published work was terrible and that
your own Hero articles, character writeups, etc. were much better, and then
made similar comments about a second published Hero author, then yes, I'd
have accused you of ridicule and asked you to tone it down.
>2 - I have no idea who Steve Woron is.
<shrug> I wasn't implying you'd copied his work anyway, just that
something about the specific pose in that picture struck me as very
familiar. It may or may not have been one of his illustrations; the
drawing style wasn't similar in any case. I don't want to post a .JPG to
the list, but I'll send you a small scan of one of his pics so you can see
"who he is".
>1 - much of the art is ment to depecit characters from an anime cinspired
>campaign.
Yes, this was obvious and there's nothing wrong with that; this is why I
admitted to a degree of prejudice on that point.
>2 - Poses stiff and arkward? I take it then that you *haven't* look too
>closesly at some of the poses out of MM and KoC? (or some other Hero
>books. Look at TUM some time for stiff and awkward poses). I will say
>that some of the pics used photos of real people as reference.
a) No, I didn't look at every piece of artwork in every published Hero
product prior to addressing my comments to you, and it wouldn't have made
any difference if I had. I don't think that at any point I implied that
all published Hero artwork was superior to yours.
b) People can be awkwardly posed in photos, nor have I seen any of the
photos, so I cannot gauge how faithfully you may have managed to reproduce
the photo image. It is also possible I just didn't see those; I didn't
look at every single picture on your site, perhaps half of them.
>3 - Lack of detail. Well, many of those pics have been scanned in,
>reduced and set for 72 dpi to create quickloading pics and not 100+k
>monsters. I looked at pics done for other Hero books and don't see much
>of a diference between the detail in the faces of my art and theirs.
That was kind of my point; I didn't see that much difference between your
work and the work of the artists you were complaining about. Nor can I
imagine you lost much detail on a scan of a black and white line drawing
(only two of the ones I looked at were in color).
>4 - I never said 'manifestly superior'. I said I thought I was better
>than Albert's stuff in MM and KoC. I am nowhere near as good as many
>other Hero artists, including Scott Ruggels and (arggh... I just forgot
>all their names). Okay, the guys who did "Watchers", or the guys who did
>"Allies".
The word ('manifestly superior') were mine, but it seemed clear the
sentiment was yours; you claimed your work was "much better" than theirs,
implying a clear difference in quality: manifestly superior. Again, if
you'd thought to mention Scott Ruggels and the others before, instead of
just running down Mark and All while blowing your own horn, I wouldn't have
said anything.
Damon
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|****************** Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs *******************|
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Climbing (was Re: Champions artists)
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 15 May 1998 20:47:52 -0400
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Remnant writes:
>> That is a special effect. Or a Focus. Or Only In Heroic ID. It is not
>> "requires Climbing skill roll".
> You are correct, however, that the focus limitation would be appropriate.
That depends on the special effects of the power in question. Suction cups
would be Clinging, OAF. Or maybe +5 Climbing, but only on smooth surfaces,
again OAF. Either way, a Climbing skill roll is required to climb, but not
to use the devices that make climbing easier.
> But, if that focus is difficult to use a skill roll concerning its use is
> justified.
In this case, that skill roll is not justified. It just makes the power
cheaper (in many senses of that word).
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Champions artists
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 15 May 1998 21:19:33 -0400
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Michael (Damon) or Peni R Griffin writes:
> b) If you haven't noticed Rat, Tim or others being taken to task over
> their expressed opinions, perhaps it's because they don't often make a
> point of singling out a Hero author by name and claiming that all of that
> author's work is terrible, that they dread seeing his name on a product
> as a contributing author,
Yes, I dislike most of Steve Long's mechanical attempts to varying degrees.
And I do dread seeing his name on a product. But if I single out something
I try to provide a starting point for something that I think works better,
or at least more consistantly with the game and the effect the mechanic is
supposed to simulate.
Steve has occasionally suprised me, notably with "Lightning Reflexes", a
trick so simple and obvious that I never saw it. For that I do give credit
where credit is due.
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 18:29:25 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Champions artists
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 05:20 PM 5/15/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Dennis C Hwang writes:
>
>> Not that I'm necessarily defending the construction, but maybe to allow
>> climbing on a surface for which the GM would disallow any normal Climbing
>> skill roll (sheer walls without grapples, pitons, or whatever, for
>> instance)?
>
>Then what purpose does the "requires Climbing skill roll" serve, other than
>to make the power cheaper?
The most obvious answer: it makes a Climbing Skill Roll required for use
(as opposed to the Power being usable with no Skill Roll).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 18:37:12 -0700
To: "Hero System Listserv" <hero-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Disads gained through game play
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 04:19 PM 5/15/1998 -0400, Lisa Hartjes wrote:
>If a PC managed to foil a villain's plans and the villain got mad enough
>that he started Hunting the PC, how would you deal with it point-wise?
>Would the PC get disad points for it? Would they get extra xp's? Would
>they get a pat on the head and a "Way to go, you've pissed someone else
>off." :)
>
>How would you deal with it?
Even though the printed rules say otherwise, I do allow a PC to gain
points from a Disadvantage gained during play. *However*, at least half
the points gained (and preferably all of them) *must* be spent on something
related to the Disadvantage.
Has the PC gotten DEMON mad at them because of how often he's spoiled
their nefarious plots? He may take them as a Hunter, but must spend at
least half the points on a magic Power Defense amulet to ward off their
spells, Contacts with an outfor that opposes them (say, PRIMUS or The
Circle), or something similar.
Did he lose an eye in the last battle? At least half of the points he
gets from the impaired vision must be spent on something to balance his
loss (maybe a bit of Armor on that side of the head, or an Enhanced Sense
device now taking up the space where his eye once was).
The only exception I make is if the player wants to spend some of the
points on buying off other Disadvantages. In that case, I only expect half
the difference to be used on abilities, equipment, etc.,
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 21:38:35 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Champions artists
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
<< For instance, "Clinging" with the limitations "only for climbing" and
"requires a Climbing skill roll" -- if you make the Climbing skill roll, what
do you need Clinging for? >>
Climbing up sheer surfaces or along a ceiling come to mind.
Mark @ GRG
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 21:50:00 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Champions artists/Al's Art
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
<< If the rest of Albert's stuff looks like this, I have no complaints. >>
That's what I thought you'd say. You should trust me more. ;)
<< How the hell did he do that background anyway? >>
I heard he sold his sould to the d... No, wait. Wrong story. ;)
<< I think my previous beef is that all of his other work look very rushed
and only partially finished. >>
We have rejected illos for San Angelo that were obviously rushed, if that's
any comfort. ;)
Mark @ GRG
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From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Creation Workshop
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 20:51:38 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Just looked at the CW screenshots at http://www.herogames.com, and they
make me want to get the product. But I won't have a use for the product
until I can generate Champions characters with it. Is there an ETA on this
product? Last time I asked about it it was going to be available in a few
months, and that was months ago.
Should I just buy it now and attempt to come up with my own Champions
template?
Guy
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 18:56:18 -0700
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: You know you have a bad GM when...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 01:46 PM 5/15/1998 -0500, Andreano, Keith HIM,VA wrote:
>You know you have a bad GM when:
> He starts doing a puppet show behind his
> GM screen during the game.
>
>You know you have a bad GM when:
> He starts a betting pool on how long
> the PCs will survive.
>
>You know you have a bad GM when:
> He comes to the game session naked.
You know you have a bad GM when...
...his list of "vital GM equipment" includes a paper shredder.
...he insists on bringing "realistic props" to his Dark Champions game.
...he insists on bringing "realistic props" to his Call of Cthulhu game.
...he claims that he was given tonight's adventure by "the voices."
...the assistant GM wears white and carries a butterfly net.
...he calls a half-hour break so he can get his electroshock therapy.
...he insists on being addressed as Vramble Kelinjex of the Third House
of the Zephylborp Galaxy at all times -- and that's *all* times.
...he asks to see photo ID and proof of age before allowing you to enter.
...he draws a pentagram around the GM's table at the start of the
session (though he conveniently "forgets" one around the players' table).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 18:58:59 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Champions artists/Al's Art
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 07:17 PM 5/15/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
>cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
>Subject: Re: Champions artists/Al's Art
>On Fri, 15 May 1998, GoldRushG wrote:
>
>> << So I'd give the guy a second look. >>
>>
>> And you can check out one of Al's illos at
>>
>> http://member.aol.com/goldrushg/siren.jpg
>
>WELL!
>
>If the rest of Albert's stuff looks like this, I have no complaints.
I'm having a hard time getting to it, but I'll keep trying....
>I think my previous beef is that all of his other work look very rushed
>and only partially finished. Something like that happened to Jeff Dee (of
>AD&D and V&V fame). Back in the mid-80's he drew one way (and he did a
>very nice job of it), now his style is completely different and very
>(oh...) I dunno, flat I think.
I seem to recall somewhere that Al was given the MM assignment at the
last minute, with very little time to work. He was dissatisfied with that
work as well. (I can't speak to any of the rest, of course.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 21:59:31 EDT
To: hero-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Disads gained through game play
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
<< If a PC managed to foil a villain's plans and the villain got mad enough
that he started Hunting the PC, how would you deal with it point-wise? Would
the PC get disad points for it? Would they get extra xp's? Would they get a
pat on the head and a "Way to go, you've pissed someone else off." :) >>
The latter. Disads gained in play don't earn the PC extra points. Of course,
the GM could *choose* to provide extra points to the PC as a house rule, but
for game balance I wouldn't want to start giving out excess points like that
unless a like amount were given to every player. And why reqard all the PCs
for one PC's faux pas? ;)
mark @ GRG
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 22:03:56 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Why stick with HSR?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
<< I played around with it and they do not come out as 250 point characters.
>>
They're not supposed to. Fuzion heroes are on a slightly different scale,
per se'. And more skills are possessed by Fuzion characters as a norm. Or so
I've heard. ;)
Mark @ GRG
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 22:06:32 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Champions artists
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> I rather like the cover of Hudson City Blues. :)
<< Atlantis was one of the best covers Hero has put out, IMHO. That one was
done by Greg Smith. My favorite Storn cover was TUM. >>
I was, of course, referring specifically to Scott Ruggles' work. ;)
Mark @ GRG
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 22:33:50 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Champions artists/Al's Art
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>WELL!
>If the rest of Albert's stuff looks like this, I have no complaints.
<< I'm having a hard time getting to it, but I'll keep trying.... >>
I had posted the wrong url (I omitted one letter). The address to Al
Deschesne's "Siren" illo, which will appear in San Angelo: City of Heores, is:
http://members.aol.com/goldrushg/siren.jpg
Mark @ GRG
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Creation Workshop
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 23:26:52 -0400
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Friday, May 15, 1998 9:52 PM, Guy Hoyle [SMTP:ghoyle1@airmail.net] wrote:
> Just looked at the CW screenshots at http://www.herogames.com, and they
> make me want to get the product. But I won't have a use for the product
> until I can generate Champions characters with it. Is there an ETA on this
> product? Last time I asked about it it was going to be available in a few
> months, and that was months ago.
>
> Should I just buy it now and attempt to come up with my own Champions
> template?
>
> Guy
You can already create Champions characters with it. Do you mean Hero 4
based characters (as opposed to Fuzion based)? If so, I beleive that Hero
has stated that they expect to be releasing a Hero 4 file set this month or
next month.
Jason Goode
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 20:38:45 -0700
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Creation Workshop
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 08:51 PM 5/15/1998 -0500, Guy Hoyle wrote:
>Just looked at the CW screenshots at http://www.herogames.com, and they
>make me want to get the product. But I won't have a use for the product
>until I can generate Champions characters with it. Is there an ETA on this
>product? Last time I asked about it it was going to be available in a few
>months, and that was months ago.
>
>Should I just buy it now and attempt to come up with my own Champions
>template?
Personally, I'm going to buy it as soon as I can afford to do so
financially, and just wait for the HC templates to come out. (The way
things are going, what with two automotive breakdowns so far this year, I
may not have a long wait, not even any wait at all.) There's so much I
want to do with it....
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 23:47:01 EDT
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Re: Champions artists/Al's Art
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
In a message dated 5/15/98 11:41:27 AM, susano@access.digex.net wrote:
>> http://member.aol.com/goldrushg/siren.jpg
>
>I got a file not found error...
Hmm, I got to see a very nice illo by Albert... maybe it wasn't working when
you tried it. Looks good, Mark!
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 21:01:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Re: Champions artists/Al's Art
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
In a message dated 5/15/98 11:41:27 AM, susano@access.digex.net wrote:
>
> http://member.aol.com/goldrushg/siren.jpg
>
> I got a file not found error...
Worked for me (of course, I've not been following this thread so I;m
left wondering "who's the chick"?)
-=>John D.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
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From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 00:04:42 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Creation Workshop
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
In a message dated 5/15/98 6:40:56 PM, ghoyle1@airmail.net wrote:
>Just looked at the CW screenshots at http://www.herogames.com, and they
>
>make me want to get the product. But I won't have a use for the product
>
>until I can generate Champions characters with it. Is there an ETA on this
>
>product? Last time I asked about it it was going to be available in a few
>
>months, and that was months ago.
>
>
>
>Should I just buy it now and attempt to come up with my own Champions
>
>template?
We are currently testing the Hero System Creator. It's feature complete, but
we're making sure that the HeroMaker files are read in and translated
properly. So we're still in testing mode at this time. I'll set a specific
release date when the software is finalled. We still need to produce packaging
and solicit the trade for the software. We will probably release the product
directly through our web site before it appears in retail stores due to the
time lag required for solicitations.
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games
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From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Creation Workshop
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 23:28:28 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> From: Goode, Jason <JGoode@medrad.com>
> You can already create Champions characters with it. Do you mean Hero 4
> based characters (as opposed to Fuzion based)? If so, I beleive that
Hero
> has stated that they expect to be releasing a Hero 4 file set this month
or
I mean Hero 4 characters. That's good news about the upcoming release.
Guy
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 23:49:05 -0500
To: hero-l@sysabend.org
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Forgotten Heroes
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Wow, a blast from the past: one of this week's "Dexter's Laboratory"
cartoons guest starred the Blue Falcon and Dyno-Mutt. Haven't seen them
for about 20 years.
Damon
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
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|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
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| Children's Books -- Dolls -- X-Files -- Pulp Magazines |
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 22:19:34 -0700
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com>
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com
Organization: None
To: "Andreano, Keith HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com>
CC: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Point totals of heroes in comics
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Andreano, Keith HIM,VA wrote:
> Question: What do you think the point totals are of typical
> comic book heroes. Try to give a range (i.e. most fall between
> X and Y points, with wimpy ones being around Z, etc.) I'm
> interested in what people think (and I'm expecting a wide
> variety of views). Also, what are the disadvantage totals like?
>
> Flame away! ^_^;
>
> ^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;
> "No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"
> - Joan of Arc's .sig
> Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com
Quick! Somebody Call Sam Bell!!!!!
Heya Sam! Thought I'd plug ya.....
Chad
_bored outa my head_
and it only took a few minutes and an electric drill!
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 22:22:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Forgotten Heroes
To: "Michael \(Damon\) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net&>
hero-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
---"Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> wrote:
>
> Wow, a blast from the past: one of this week's "Dexter's Laboratory"
> cartoons guest starred the Blue Falcon and Dyno-Mutt. Haven't seen
them
> for about 20 years.
>
> Damon
Now, if they would just bring back Electro-Woman and Dynagirl....
-=>John D.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
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Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 01:56:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Champions artists
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
And that's the last I'm going to say on the goddamned subject, satisfied?
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 23:06:59 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Organization: Satan's Children
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Forgotten Heroes
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
John Desmarais wrote:
>
> ---"Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> wrote:
> >
> > Wow, a blast from the past: one of this week's "Dexter's Laboratory"
> > cartoons guest starred the Blue Falcon and Dyno-Mutt. Haven't seen them
> > for about 20 years.
> >
> > Damon
>
> Now, if they would just bring back Electro-Woman and Dynagirl....
Hey, don't forget the LIVE-ACTION Shazam/Isis hour! Or are we going
for obscurity here? How about Wonderbug - the live action (bad) copy of
Speed Buggy (which itself was EXCELLENT...)?
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
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Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 01:26:13 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Champions artists
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> > Not that I'm necessarily defending the construction, but maybe to allow
> > climbing on a surface for which the GM would disallow any normal Climbing
> > skill roll (sheer walls without grapples, pitons, or whatever, for
> > instance)?
>
> Then what purpose does the "requires Climbing skill roll" serve, other than
> to make the power cheaper?
I don't know . . . maybe, say, give it a chance to fail?
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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From: "David Graham" <dgraham882@hotmail.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: You know you have a bad GM when...
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 06:32:45 GMT
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>>You know you have a bad GM when:
He asks the players whether white wine or red wine goes with dead meat.
;)
______________________________________________________
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 23:41:35 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
To: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Problems with Hero 4th edition
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 6
Kim Foster wrote:
> Hero does handle "action movie" verisons of Fantasy, Cyberpunk and Horrror
> well. Heroes in those tend to take an outrageous amount of punishment
> without dying or being critically injured ir killed. Using hit
> locations,impairing, bleeding and wounding can up the lethality for more
> "realistic" genres as well.
While the full blown superhero genre has very little death of heroes
in it, I have found that for all other systems, PEOPLE DIE!!! A person has on
average about 6 resistant PD and ED for fantasy and about the same for
superagents and the equivelant (certainly no more than 8-9). When various
weapons which can do 2 dice killing are common, (4 DC for a broad sword, 1 DC
for strength, 1 DC for allocation of skills while 2D6 hand guns can be found
scattered throughout the lists) body is going to be taken on a regular basis
especially if hit locations and segmented armour is used. In the games we
play, it doesn't pay to become attached to any particular character.
Now this doesn't preclude various groups who wander around glowing
like christmas trees in a fantasy setting or the average superagent having
very high tech equipment, but then the level of threat should also be somewhat
higher.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
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Reply-To: <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Champions artists
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 01:33:30 -0700
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> From: Stainless Steel Rat
>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Dennis C Hwang writes:
>
> > Not that I'm necessarily defending the construction, but maybe to allow
> > climbing on a surface for which the GM would disallow any normal Climbing
> > skill roll (sheer walls without grapples, pitons, or whatever, for
> > instance)?
>
> Then what purpose does the "requires Climbing skill roll" serve, other than
> to make the power cheaper?
So the character can slip, have problems, or even fall. The idea is to create "impossibly
good climbing skill", not, "sticks to wall like fly". Thus, a character with this
variation of Clinging can climb faster than Climbing allows, can climb surfaces that
Climbing would normally not allow, but unlike Clinging allows you to slip and fall if
things go wrong.
Filksinger
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com>
To: "Champs List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Climbing (was Re: Champions artists)
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 03:49:49 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>> But, if that focus is difficult to use a skill roll concerning its use is
>> justified.
>
>In this case, that skill roll is not justified. It just makes the power
>cheaper (in many senses of that word).
In which case? The case I described involves a difficult to use focus. If
a skill roll for climbing wouldn't be justified for usage of gear that
allows you to climb, albeit with the power Clinging, then what would be the
appropriate skill roll?
Out of curiousity, do you have a problem with RASR for any power? or just
in the case of Clinging? If you have a problem with RASR totally then your
problem is not with Steve Long but with whoever came up with the idea of
RASR. If you just don't like RASR used with a skill roll that in your
opinion negates the need for the power it is applied to, try to remember
that powers quite often allow characters to do things that can't be done by
an actual human. Skills only allow characters to do what can be done with
proper training and education. However, if I have conceived of a power that
requires training and education to use, then RASR is justified.
Alan
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com>
To: "Champs List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Forgotten Heroes
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 03:57:39 -0500
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> Hey, don't forget the LIVE-ACTION Shazam/Isis hour! Or are we going
>for obscurity here? How about Wonderbug - the live action (bad) copy of
>Speed Buggy (which itself was EXCELLENT...)?
>
"O' Zephyr winds which blow on high, lift me now so I can fly!"
Alan
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 06:00:06 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Forgotten Heroes
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 11:06 PM 5/15/1998 -0700, Captain Spith wrote:
>John Desmarais wrote:
>> ---"Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > Wow, a blast from the past: one of this week's "Dexter's Laboratory"
>> > cartoons guest starred the Blue Falcon and Dyno-Mutt. Haven't seen them
>> > for about 20 years.
>>
>> Now, if they would just bring back Electro-Woman and Dynagirl....
>
> Hey, don't forget the LIVE-ACTION Shazam/Isis hour! Or are we going
>for obscurity here? How about Wonderbug - the live action (bad) copy of
>Speed Buggy (which itself was EXCELLENT...)?
How about Karate Kat? (Second greatest cartoon martial artist of all
time, after Hong Kong Phooey!)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Disads gained through game play
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-3,5-7,12-14
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 09:04:51 EDT
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>> If a PC managed to foil a villain's plans and the villain got mad
enough
>> that he started Hunting the PC, how would you deal with it point-wise?
>> Would the PC get disad points for it? Would they get extra xp's?
>> Would they get a pat on the head and a "Way to go, you've pissed
someone
>> else off." :)
Horror Hero, IIRC, allows characters to gain disads during play, but
that's a genre where going bonkers halfway during the story is normal.
In another genre, and assuming the villian was going to put long-term
effort into getting the PC, I'd probably let the player switch another
disad for the new one as long as the points were the same.
Leah
_____________________________________________________________________
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Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 07:36:15 -0600
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Disads gained through game play
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Michael Surbrook writes:
>
> > Give them a pat on the head. [...]
>
> About the size of it.
>
> Characters cannot gain points from disadvantages acquired during play.
>
I would, however, allow the player to switch an older 'stale' hunted
with the new one if he desired, and run a 'finish the old hunted'
adventure cycle.
--
Not only does the English Language borrow words from other languages,
it sometimes chases them down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and
goes through their pockets. -- Eddy Peters
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Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 08:44:34 -0500
To: hero-l@sysabend.org
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Forgotten Heroes
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>Now, if they would just bring back Electro-Woman and Dynagirl....
Mmmm, yes. Not being cartoons, it's harder to bring them back, of course.
I haven't seen Judy Strangis in a long time, but Deidre Hall still looks
pretty good.
Damon
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Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 08:53:58 -0500
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Forgotten Heroes
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> Hey, don't forget the LIVE-ACTION Shazam/Isis hour! Or are we going
>for obscurity here? How about Wonderbug - the live action (bad) copy of
>Speed Buggy (which itself was EXCELLENT...)?
In one early episode of "Johnny Bravo", Johnny's car breaks down and he is
given a lift by Scooby and the gang in the Mystery Machine. He spends all
his time hitting on Daphne, and parts company with them at the end of the
episode. Again in need of a ride, this time he is picked up by Speed
Buggy. The multiform van from the Amazing Chan and the Chan Clan was also
subtly worked into a Johnny Bravo episode. They stopped just short of
pairing him with Batman, but he did meet hero Adam West -- "To the Adam
Westmobile!"
Damon
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Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 14:43:02 -0500
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net
Organization: GM's R US
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Why stick with HSR?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
David Stallard wrote:
> Message text written by "Goode, Jason"
> >Asking Fuzioneers "What's good about Fuzion?" was a good idea.
> >Asking Heroeers "Why should I not go to Fuzion?" is a bad idea.
>
> Agreed. What I really meant to ask the Heroeers is:
> "What's good about HSR which is not as good in Fuzion?"
I don't see how Fuzion is much different then HSR really. The
reason I stay with HSR is because it is more flexible then Fuzion IMO.
With HSR I don't have to use HSR to create powers and then switch
them to Fuzion.
Also, if I don't like how something works in HSR I CHANGE IT. In
Fuzion they have used the fancy "plug-and-play" terminology for this.
I do a lot of home-grown campaigns or conversions from other systems
and I find it MUCH easier to use HSR for that than Fuzion. Maybe one day
when Fuzion has all the powers and rules flushed out it will be
different, but till then it is HSR.
I have played Fuzion and I have played HSR (admittedly more HSR) and
I have not really seen that much of a difference in combat. Combat takes
as l0ng as you want it to IMO. Using the Superheroic rules it will take
longer because characters don't go down as fast. It IMO is part of the
genre.
One thing Fuzion does have on HSR is that Fuzion uses a difficulty
based system for skills. I like difficulty based systems a lot and think
they are the wave of the future. I have even spent time and converted
HSR to use Fuzions difficulty based skill system. (Remember I said they
are very similar). It worked very well and if you want it I will send it
to you.
IMO Fuzion is a bad edition of HSR. They are so similar it isn't
funny. The only difference a lot of times is in terminology. However,
Fuzion does not have all the rules (look at their power section and look
at HSR power section) and it has not had the 15+ years of flushing out
that HSR has had.
Is Fuzion bad...some on this list will say yes, I don't. I think it
is good, but just not equal to HSR. As one person said, play it...see
what YOU think.
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Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 12:54:04 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
To: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Disads gained through game play
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Todd Hanson wrote:
> If you wanted to be REALLY nice, you could let the hero 'cash in' a
> different hunted (or other disad entirely) and replace it with the new
> hunted.
Certainly, this is the way to go, IF APPROPIATE. Disads are suppost to
evolve with the character. This is an opportunity for a player and GM to get
together and go over the current disads. "You're not playing that psych limit
to the current level, buy it down and take this hunted". "Well done, you
stopped the villain but your secret ID is blown to hell. Change it to Public ID
and you are now hunted by Dr Y".
This sort of thing helps to keep a character interesting.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 19:01:08 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Champions artists/Al's Art
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
<< Worked for me (of course, I've not been following this thread so I;m left
wondering "who's the chick"?) >>
If you're referring to the illo, that's Siren. She's one of the NPC
villains that will be appearing in San Angelo: City of Heroes.
Mark @ GRG
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 19:27:09 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Champions artists
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
I think you folks should lighten up on Mr. Surbrook. I didn't perceive his
comments as being as insulting as apparently some of you did. But I think it
is time to let the subject drop. Al's art is good now. We like it. We hired
him. You'll see his work in SA:CoH. Period. ;)
Mark @ GRG
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 21:06:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Hero Difficulty based skills.
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From: dwtoomey@juno.com (David W Toomey)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>Kim Foster wrote:
>
>> I'm not the original questioner but I would be interested in seeing
>this
>> diffuiculty based system for Hero. Thank you.
Easy enough. You have to change one Hero4 Mechanic:
Instead of comparing a 3d6 roll to your skill, and using the difference
for degree of success, roll 3d6 and ADD the total to the skill. You wind
up
wamting high rolls instead of low.
Difficulty Numbers (Lifted, in modified form, from C-TNE)
Challenged.....16
Everyday........20
Competant.....24
Heroic............28
Incerdible.......32
Legendary......36
etc...
These numbers could be adjusted to suit a given GM's taste, of course...
For Opposed skills, both sides would roll Relevant Skill+3d6, with the
higher
total succeding, as opposed to comparing 'made-by's
This works for combat as well:
OCV+modifiers+3d6, with target # equal to opponents DCV+11
The hit probabilities are identical, but the die roll has been reversed.
Opinions, anyone?
David W Toomey
dwtoomey@juno.com
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Date: Tuesday, April 27, 1999 03:54 PM