Week Ending June 6, 1998
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From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Normals with Powers (change the subject once in a while, dammit!)
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 01:36:46 +1000
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> > i suppose the cones could detect uv but it's much more
> > likely to be some sorta funky backwards doplet thing. .
>
> Actually, being able to detect UV is not at all strange. Remember that
> the rods rely on the photoreactivity of rhodopsin, which has a fairly
> flat frequency response curve, and may extend well above violet. Also,
> the cones don't detect just a single frequency of light: each has a
> different response curve that centers about one color. The sensation of
> color is produced by convolving the three sensory intensities. There is
> also a Fourier Transform involved, since the retina detects changes in
> light intensity, not light intensity. This is why the eye scans slightly
> from side to side all the time.
>
> Now, considering the fact that blue is the most subjectively intense
> color for most people, it seems perfectly reasonable that the "blue"
> cones will have a significant response into the near ultraviolet.
>
like i said, a backwards dopler thing *l*. If we treat light waves
as non-categorised (as they are) then clearly small areas of
uv band will be detected in the right conditions. Now add the fact that
vision perception is based on preconcious 'calculations' and the
possibilities for
'virtual uz' based partly on true uv and partly on extrapolated data from
normal spectra of light and yeah, i guess. . still sounds a bit urban
mithy tho. . .
> <------------------------------------------------------->
> Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
> Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
> http://www.erols.com/robtwest
>
>
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Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 08:42:12 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Normals with Powers (change the subject once in a while, dammit!)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> Dale Ward writes:
>
> > However, according the examiner, there was an "upside". My upper and
> > lower range hearing extended well beyond the human norm.
>
> Remember, 20hz to 20KHz is an *average* range, not the extreme. Some
> people can hear as low as 5-10Hz and as high as 25KHz. Which is why CD
> audio sounds clipped to people like that; CD audio is good for 20Hz to
> 22KHz[1]. The deep bass and high harmonics are lost. Yes, you and I are
> "unusual"; but "unusual" does not mean "abnormal".
Also remember that the range varies by age and sex. Women, as a class,
hear higher frequencies than men, as a class. Most people tend to lose
high-frequency hearing over time, especially if they have been exposed to
loud noises.
Hearing into the near ultrasonic is not that unusual. Years ago, there
was an open house at the Naval Air Development Center, where the
engineers were demonstrating ultrasound, and both my sisters walked into
the room and covered their ears -- this caused the engineers some
consternation, and they set about measuring their hearing. It trailed
off around 28KHz, IIRC.
I used to have a major problem with Department Stores that left their
ultrasonic alarm systems active during the day -- it felt like a stun gun
going through the door. This was also in the era when they hired girls
to come up and spray men with cologne (to many types of which I am
allergic) and coo about how that scent makes you irresistable. Shopping
could be downright dangerous!
Hmmm... Ultrasonic Hearing, 5 points. Phys Lim: Allergic to Perfumes
(Infrequent, Slight), 5 points. Scary, isn't it!
I no longer get the same effect, and I can't hear the multitude of
(presumably ultrasonic) motion sensors that control the lights in the
office, so unless they have moved to higher frequencies or to decibel
ratings below my threshhold of hearing, I have lost the ultrasonic
hearing, *and* have gained the Age limitation. Wow! That's close to the
fifteen points that were were talking about earlier!
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
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Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 08:48:21 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Thor vs. Captain America
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 01:17 AM 5/30/1998, Filksinger wrote:
>No, a science fiction short story, one of my favorite shorts by David
>Brin, who writes the Uplift stories. Most of his stuff is pretty good
>reading, especially his later stuff.
>
>BTW, the movie "The Postman" was based roughly and badly upon
>his book of the same name.
I've neither read the book nor seen the movie, I just got a private
email from someone who tells me (much to my surprise) that the town in
which it takes place in Corvallis (where I am)!
I'm curious if the landmarks and other features of Corvallis, Oregon
were used, or if the name was just drawn up by Mr. Brin because it sounded
interesting (there's a guy in Virginia whose given name is Corvallis, just
because his father found the name on the map and thought it sounded neat).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 11:23:32 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
To: Firelynx16@aol.com
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll: Line of Sight
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Firelynx16@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 98-05-29 01:45:04 EDT, you write:
>
> Reread the example... The attacker will be able to see (detect) the target
> through the glass, because the sense (sight) is able to pass through, so the
> LoS string would also pass through the glass. Just like it would pass through
> the opaque wall if your sense was N-Ray. Remember, it's not a physical
> string, just an immaterial string that follows the sense(s) being used to
> target the victim.
>
> > By the reasoning below, a mentalist could not attack someone on the other
> > side of a windshield or pane of glass because the string would stop short
> of
> > the target on the glass.
> >
> > >
> > > The thing to keep in mind here is that Line of Sight means that
> > > the attacker
> > > has to be able to *detect* his/her target. (see HSR pg55) Looking at an
> > > image of the target on a television screen does not allow the attacker to
> > > detect the target, only the image on the screen. Try using the
> > > sense of smell
> > > on a target via a tv screen.
> > > Another way to think of it might be to think of using a string to
> > > represent
> > > the sense you are using to get your LoS. To establish LoS you
> > > would connect
> > > that piece of string from the attacker directly to the target. If the
> > > attacker couldn't see (detect) through a particular barrier, than
> > > the string
> > > stops short of the target, and LoS cannot be established. If the
> attacker
> > > connect the string, meaning he could detect the target, then LoS has been
> > > established, and the attacker can fire away.
> > > If the attacker is looking at a tv image of the target, the
> > > string goes from
> > > the attacker to the screen and stops. Normal sight does not allow for
> the
> > > attacker to use the sense of Sight along the path of photons in
> > > the tube, and
> > > then along electrons through the wires, and then along microwaves to the
> > > television station, and then along etc.
> > > Again, we're talking about base level of mental powers. If a
> > > player wanted to
> > > be able to attack targets seen on tv screens, it can be done, but
> > > it's going
> > > to be messy and expensive.
> > >
> > > 'Lynx
> > >
> >
> >
> >
So your "String" is the particulate part of the wave particle duality of light,
correct?
In Hero Games' systems everything comes down to FX (as so many commonly quote). I
have said before the FX of a TV camera IMHO is that of Telecsopic vision, not
Cairasentience. Your above reasoning for stopping at the telescopic vision at the
CRT seems to be that there are various tranlations involved in the transmittling
the picture from its source to the egoist destination. That since the egoist
can't precieve each and every format the signal is in and use each of these
additional sences as a targetting sence then LOS has been broken. In other words
as soon as the signal gets translated into a fomart the egoist is unable to
precieve LOS is broken. Correct?
If so, then this is the point of contention. I am of the opinion that the
intemediary format do not matter, so long as the egoist can understand the format
(and its a targetting sence) they are using, then they would be able to use their
powers. The various translations that the signal goes through passing from your
eye to your mind is clear proof of this. The fact that the photons get translated
back and forth between chemical and electrical signals before being reconstructed
in the brain then passed to the mind in some currently unknown format is proof of
this. Since the mind does not how to precieve photons or electricity yet it
tranlates them into something it can precieve, chemicals and the unknow format.
So the intermediary step IMO do no matter only the final format.
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Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 09:42:26 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Normals with Powers (change the subject once in a while, dammit!)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
happyelf wrote:
>
> > >erm, plus you need to grow a set of cones and rods and stuff. . .
> >
> > No, apparantly the 'normal' human retina is capable of seeing into the
> > ultraviolet. It's just that the cornea blocks UV radiation. Strange but
> true.
As I understand, it is the lens, not the cornea, that blocks most UV
light. If you think about it for a moment, this almost has to be true --
cataracts appear to be caused by the cross-chaining of proteins in the
lens, which is caused by exposure to nearly-ionizing radiation, such as
UV. If the cornea blocked UV, the lens would not have this problem.
This is why it is important to wear sunglasses, and why the incidence of
cataracts is increasing in areas where the ozone layer is thinning.
People who have had cataracts removed are supposed to be able to see into
the near UV, and there are stories of the Navy's having employed such
people as coast watchers during WW2 because of their unusual sensitivity
to UV. I have no idea about the lens implants they are now using.
>From a systems-design standpoint, this makes sense. Constant exposure
to UV would almost certainly damage the retina. Accordingly, it makes
sense for the lens to protect the retina. The fact that the lens slowly
clouds is irrelevant, since by the time this happens, other senile
degradation will also be occuring. Since the photosensitive chemicals in
the retina must have a response that falls off gradually with increasing
frequency, it would not make design sense to have their maximum response
be at or below the maximum frequency passed by the protective optics.
>
> i suppose the cones could detect uv but it's much more
> likely to be some sorta funky backwards doplet thing. .
Actually, being able to detect UV is not at all strange. Remember that
the rods rely on the photoreactivity of rhodopsin, which has a fairly
flat frequency response curve, and may extend well above violet. Also,
the cones don't detect just a single frequency of light: each has a
different response curve that centers about one color. The sensation of
color is produced by convolving the three sensory intensities. There is
also a Fourier Transform involved, since the retina detects changes in
light intensity, not light intensity. This is why the eye scans slightly
from side to side all the time.
Now, considering the fact that blue is the most subjectively intense
color for most people, it seems perfectly reasonable that the "blue"
cones will have a significant response into the near ultraviolet.
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
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Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 11:54:15 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
To: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll: Line of Sight
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Filksinger wrote:
> > From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
> <snip>
> > Back to mental powers, What's the difference between tagetting a missile through a
> > cathode ray tube and targetting Mental Powers through a cathode ray tube?
>
> The only difference is that the missile and the cathode ray tube are linked together in a system that allows one to precisely guide the other.
>
> Mental attacks, like all others (area effect and explosions aside), require that you pinpoint the target. A cathode ray tube does not _normally_ allow you to pinpoint a target with it.
>
> If you could walk into a room with the cathode ray tube, look at it, see someone you wanted to attack, and know where that target was well enough to attack him, then you can use an attack on him.
>
My point exactly. If the egoist knows the area well enough (ie a place they live/work at) then all the mentalist needs is the picture on the screen to use their powers. As the level a familiarity drops the negitives skyrocket (exponential rather then geometric growth) very quickly. So that if it a place the egoist had visted
once or twice, its better to use Mind Scan on a smaller area then to try and attack the target from their direct knowledge.
> A missile linked to a screen is synchronized with it to allow just this. You see someone in the crosshairs on the screen, and that is all you need to hit him.
>
> A mentalist, using such a device, may, if skilled enough, be able to tell from the screen _exactly_ where the target was. This could be ruled to allow a mental attack.
>
> A mentalist who walked into Radio Shack and saw a live interview with his enemy on the screen, cannot pinpoint his location. It isn't a targeting sense. Use of any attack, including mental powers, requires a targetting sense. Since TV does not give you enough information _in and of itself_ to do so, then it does not qualify.
>
Once again this depends on the situation. If the enemy was standing in front of the door of the office building the egoist worked at there may be enough information. It the TV interviewer says that they are standing on the corner of 5th and Main, it may give the egoist suffiecient information if they can make an area knowledge
roll with some appropriate minuses for the situation.
> The missile and screen combination supply sufficient information that it is not even necessary for you to know where the camera is pointed. The missile and screen are linked so as to make the screen and camera a "Targeting Sense". A TV camera doesn't give you this information.
>
> Look at it this way. Watch TV until you see a live news broadcast. Now, solely by using the TV, point directly at the _newscaster_, not the image on the screen.
>
> You might get his general direction from clues on the screen, but you cannot point directly at him. TV is not _normally_ a Targeting Sense.
>
> Filksinger
>
Can do. When the braodcast was from my kids gradeschool it was no problem (it close to my house and i vistited it regularly. Broadcasts from the ND football stadium are easy to pinpoint since I've grown up around it. Broadcasts from Purdue, Wright State and Wright Patterson AFB would also be fairly easy since I've lived and
worked at all of these locations in the past. Broadcast from Math Sciences, CS, EE, Heavelon, the CoRec, Memorial Mall and Ross Ade at Purdue would be breeze since I spent so much time in them, but from Agad, Physics and Life Sciences would be more difficult since I hardly ever visited them. Once again it comes down to how
well you know the area (a great use of Area Knowledge skills). In short, there is nothing inherent in TV broadcasts that would prohibit use of Mental Powers, its whether the egoist can gain sufficient information to accurately locate the target.
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Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 12:14:17 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll: Line of Sight
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Bob Greenwade wrote:
> At 09:34 PM 5/28/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote:
> <clip>
> >Your Eyes are the targeting sence, I hope your brain is hooked up to your
> eyes :)
>
> Yes, the eyes to make up a targeting sense.
No, Your mind is the targetting sence. Your eyes are just part of the systems
that transmits the information to your mind.
> <clip>
> Ah, and there's the difference! You're using a map, and calculating
> angles, not using *solely* the video system! If one could use the video
> system as a targeting sense (in the Hero System sense of the term), then
> the map and calculations would not be necessary; you could just aim and
> fire. With the map and calculations, you could still make a fairly
> accurate shot, but you're still essentially firing blind (again, in terms
> of Hero mechanics).
I don't have lightning calculator or the trig tables memorized so I need them for
the exact tragectory for the balistic shell. The map is needed for calculating
the distance. Since Mental Powers are uneffected by either tragectory or
distance niether of these would be needed for use with mental powers. Now, given
that there are no other influences on the bullet after being fired (muzzle
imperfections, winds, obstiles etc.) then the bullet would hit the target. Once
again these types of influences don't effect mental powers, so what is
prohibiting egoists from useing their powers?
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Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 10:28:15 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll: Line of Sight
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Bryant Berggren wrote:
>
> Do you REALLY know exactly where the reporter is? You might be able to
> deduce this from context, or they might tell you, but that's not the same as
> knowing for certain. In the end, you're at the mercy of the camera's
> location -- it could be where it seems to be, or it could be broadcasting
> from a soundstage beneath the ocean.
A couple of years ago, there was a bit of a scandal in ABC News. There
was some breaking story, and they wanted Cokie Roberts to read the story
from in front of the White House. Unfortunately, she had just gotten
into evening wear for some event and there was no time for her to change.
They had a camera in front of the White House, and had Cokie, with a
trench coat over her gown, stand in front of a color-key screen, so that
she looked like she was on location. "This is Cokie Roberts, reporting
from in front of the White House." Try targeting a mental power through
that!
BTW, where did this nonsense about having to buy Targeting for
Clairsentience come from? There is no support in the book for this. To
quote HSR page 60:
Clairsentience <stop sign>
With this Standard Power, one of a character's senses (usually
normal sight) workst at a distance. It is as if the character
were standing some distance away from his current position.
* * *
A character with Clairsentience should think of the perception
point as a spot he can put anywhere within the range of his
Clairsentience; he can then see (or hear, smell, etc.) anything
near the perception point as if he were standing there himself.
This strikes me as clear. Clairsentience neither adds nor subtracts
features, such as Discriminatory, Targeting and Tracking. Note
especially that Enhanced Senses are Special Powers, while Clairsentience
is a Standard Power; Clairsentience is not a sense, it is a power that
allows senses to be used indirectly.
As such, I would rule that, using a Clairsentience that is fully
controlled by and familiar to the character, line of sight is computed
from the viewpoint of the Clairsentience. For mundane TV, I would rule
by special effect that the image and knowledge of the location are simply
not sufficient to allow the targeting of *any* power: whether an Indirect
power or a Mental Power, or even to hit a hex. Forget arguments about
whether one is seeing the target or an image of the target, it is just
not precise enough.
Now, as I have said previously, if the mentalist practices extensively
with the security cameras on the team's base, say by hitting his
teammates with telepathy or the odd 1D6 Ego Attack as they pretend to
sneak through the corridors, then I would allow this, much as manoeuvres
practiced in a Danger Room.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 12:31:03 -0500
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John Desmarais writes:
>>A good example of the problem with not explaining where everything comes
>>from. Ninja Hero, page 102, says the Active/3 STR min is for
>>"non-muscled-powered weapons." Not that that rule was necessarily
observed
>>when FH was written.
>
>I was going by the HSR under "Buying Weapons and Armor" pg 204. However,
a
>quick look in the BBB (Deluxe) shows me that Base/3 has been replaced with
>Active/3.
>In this case, you would make the STR Min 5 (still only one key away from
what was >in
>the FH book, so I still prefer to think of it as a typo instead of
stupidity on someone's
>part).
I suppose some of this response it to much more than this message. But
it's all part and parcel of the same issue. I'm not picking on you,
John--it's just that your response made me realize something:
I'm not communicating very well here! (If you hear frustration, it's at
myself.) No, it's not stupidity--I don't think I even implied that it was.
It probably is a typo. There are going to be some of those. But it could
have been presented better, by the simple expedient of showing how each
thing was built, in groups. Something like this:
Most melee weapons built this way: [Explanation, limitations, etc.]
Flails use this advantage
Throw weapons use this other advantage
Darts were built using Base/3, or Active/3, or whatever was used.
Same way for the other exceptions.
Note that some of the above IS already included. The rest you either have
to dig for in other sources (and who knows if they are relevant), or figure
out for yourself. If you suspect a typo, you can compare the final result
to the stated build method. More importantly, if you want to change
something, you don't have to "reverse-engineer" the final result.
I should also point out that there have been other situations where a
"final result" was shown without the explanation for how it was built. I
at first thought something was a typo. But later, I discovered (by various
means) the actual thinking behind the construct. "Oh, that's why it's that
way. Play balance, " or "I didn't think of that."
Everyone remember those early math classes where you always had to "show
your work"? Same principle. (The only difference is that Hero "work"
isn't for the teacher, it's for all the GM's.) Without the work, there is
no way to distinguish between typos, mistakes, alternate methods, or "I'm
just missing something"--except, of course, by doing the work yourself.
Showing the work is a separate but connected issue to whether there should
be more components are not. You can agree with one and not the other.
However, "showing the work" takes space. Futhermore, only designers (GM's,
interested players, armchair, whatever) care about it. That supports
components, because components mean, by definition, putting the design in
as few spots as possible (preferably just one).
Except for not having 100% of the work shown (not 100% examples, just 100%
of the work to build whatever examples are present), the weapons list in
HSR is just right. And the HSR is the appropriate spot to put the work.
Then when FH comes along, the authors can assume that you have HSR. So
instead of showing the work again, they give you a lot more examples.
However, the dart "work" wasn't shown in HSR, so it should have been
included.
Let me also say that I, too, think that FH is one of the finest pieces of
work ever published by Hero Games--and that includes the editing job.
Believing in a standard or better way is not the same thing as being
intolerant of any failure. Lord knows I would never write anything if it
had to be perfect. As you guys can see from my responses :-)
Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 12:31:05 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll: Line of Sight
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Bob Greenwade wrote:
> At 10:25 PM 5/28/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote:
> >Bob Greenwade wrote:
> >
> >> At 09:52 PM 5/27/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote:
> >> >Bob Greenwade wrote:
> >> It's not a physical difference that makes the difference. It's a
> >> logistical difference. In the case of binoculars or a mirror, the photons
> >> are coming from the target. In the case of a television screen, the
> >> photons are coming from a television screen.
> >
> >So the source of the light makes the difference? Do neon lights,
> incandescent,
> >electrical impedence and nuclear light have differing effects on Mental
> Powers.
> >Since incandescent and neon are softer then the light pruduced by a
> television do
> >they have adverse effects on the targetting capacity of the light they
> produce for
> >egoists?
>
> No. Neon lights, incadescent lights, electrical impedence lights, and
> nuclear light sources do not have minds (at least, as a rule; we are
> talking about a superhero world, after all), and so cannot be targeted by
> Mental Powers. I don't know why anyone would even propose trying such a
> thing.
> However, any living being from which those lights reflect do have minds,
> and can be targeted.
>
I'm not talking about targetting them. I'm talking about the type of light they
produce and how it effects the targetting of mental powers. The previous post
made distinctions about the source of the light and since the light from the
target is only being relected from another light source, I was showing that this
type of distinction is baseless since it would exclude other light sources besides
the television.
> >> This is done by providing other frames of reference. In the case of
> >> missile guidance, that frame of reference is provided by the expert systems
> >> of the type that you used to write. The gunner isn't just looking at a
> >> video screen and shooting out the window, is he? No, he's not really
> >> targeting the weapon himself, but telling the computer where to target --
> >> otherwise, how does the computer know where it's supposed to hit?
> >
> >The expert systems provide no frame of reference, they provide guidence
> from one
> >location to another. In short the computer is flying from point A to
> point B.
> >Point B is the location on the HUD that the pilot has selected as the
> target. The
> >missile and the expert system know nothing about what point B is. Whether
> its a
> >giant city eating lizard, a T 80 tank or a crowd of innocent bystanders, it
> >makes no difference to the missile. It simply goes there and detonates. The
> >selection of the target (point B) is done by the gunner on a 2 inch by 2 inch
> >video disply that is sitting a few inches in front of his eye.
>
> But how does he aim the missile? Aren't the monitor and aiming system
> linked together somehow? Or does he just see the image on the monitor and
> somehow "know" where that is relative to his weapon, punch in those
> relative coordinates, and fire?
Depends on the fire control system. Some let the gunner select with a dot on the
screen, some use circles or boxes others use crosshairs. The pilot places the
targetting mechanism on the chosen target, the system then gathers information to
obtain lock on (exact postion, distance, and guidence profiles for use by the
missles sensors). Once the system has locked on, id has obtained sufficient
information to calculate a guidence tragectory and correct for movement of the
target, the pilot is imformed and then s/he decides when to fire the weapon.
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 12:51:08 -0500
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Joe Mucchiello writes:
>But there is a big difference between claws and weapons. A dagger is a
>8-15" bladed weapon. It does about 1/2d6K damage. If you make it longer
>it becomes a different weapon. Claws on the other hand (snicker), can be
>attached to a rat or Godzilla. The base damage for rat claws is (at most)
>1 pip HKA + strength. Godzilla's are AoE Line HKAs (+ strength) because
>his hand is so big. Now, what else can be said about Claws? Some have
>Reduced Penetration. Some are Armor Piercing or Penetrating.
But there isn't a big difference between claws and weapons. I said
substitute "claws" for "weapons", not "claws" for "dagger". Sure, the
dagger is one example. A rat's claws are another example. They are both
examples of a class of something, which (at least in Hero terms), are
typically built with a finite set of mechanics.
And you are supporting my argument indirectly. Until you mentioned it, I
wouldn't have thought of including AoE for large claws, even though I've
seen AoE used for similar things in the past. Or maybe it would have
eventually occurred to me. Either way, you saved me some time and made my
theoretical "claw" write up more interesting and complete. As far as what
else can be said, here's a few things I've thought of since your
"challenge":
Retractable vs non-retractable. If not retractable, can the creature still
grab things, and at what minus?
When using reduced penetration, does extra damage from STR apply before or
after the base power is split? Or, put another way, to add a damage class
to a rdcd pen (x2) attack, do you need 5 STR or 10 STR? I've done it both
ways, and only gradually came to learn towards the latter. (Although, that
whole issues belongs under rdcd pen.)
Then you show how each one is built, and make a simple list, everything
from rats to Godzilla. Ideally, you break them up into logical groups.
>Are you just looking for a more complete Bestiary? That's all that the
>weapon lists are.
I'm looking for a "Beast Builder", either as a separate book or as a
beginning to the Bestiary. Or maybe not either. Once the "Beast Builder"
is written, it might apply to a lot more than beasts, in which case, some
of the components should move up to a more general book. What is left
might only be a few pages in the Bestiary.
Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 12:58:28 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
To: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll: Line of Sight
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Filksinger wrote:
> > From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
> >
> >
> >
> > Filksinger wrote:
> >
> > > > From: Ross Rannells
> > > >
> > > <snip>
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, the camera will allow you to see the target, but it does not give you
> > > > > line of sight to that target.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Neither does Mind Scan, yet it allows you to attack.
> > >
> > > Mind Scan is a Targeting Sense, and as such does give you "line of sight" to the target.
> > >
> > > Filksinger
> >
> > Mind scan gives the location of the targetted mind and can them be used to target other
> > mental powers as well as tells the egoist the relative location of the target. Where does
> > it say it gives line of sight on the target?
> >
>
> Unfortunately, while it is clearly intended, it isn't quite stated that way.
> Things which are stated in one part of the book (attacks of various
> sorts) are also stated to be possible with a "Targeting Sense". Thus,
> for purposes of attacks in Hero, a "Targeting Sense" gives "LOS",
> even though there may be no line or sight involved.
>
> Filksinger
>
> ____________________________________________________________________
> Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1
So you and I don't read into the ustated parts of the rules same way. The way it appears to
me is that the location of the target needs to be known. Whether the location is thruough
seeing the target (line of sight) or locating it through (mind scan). Either way once the
location is known, other mental powers may be used. Under your interpretation, where line of
sight is key and mind scan just a substitution for line of sight. Then live video feeds would
not be of any help to an egoist who hasn't bought specific advantages on their powers. Where as
in my interpretation, locating the targets mind is key and either mind scan or line of sight
will is suffiecient for this. Then a video feed that gives suffiecient (as ruled by the GM)
would allow for the attack. The reason I like this interpetation is that it opens up a whole
new set of complications for the heros to deal with.
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Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 11:02:40 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Lighter Characters (was Poll: Champions Dialogue #2.)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> wrote:
> >In a game that is beginning locally, one of the players is considering a
> >gravity manipulation character. One of his possible powers is 'density
> >decrease', where he reduced his weight. He was considering Shrinking
> >"Does not reduce height", so he could get the reduced weight, extra KB,
> >and so on, without getting any shorter. How else can you buy this effect
> >without using Shrinking?
>
> The way you mention above is how I'd do it, at least under 4th Edition.
One way I have seen this done is Flight, Only to offset mass(-1). The
amount of flight to use is 1" per point of STR required to lift the
amount of the density decrease. Suppose that a 100kg character wants to
be 25kg with Density Decrease. Lifting 75kg requires 8 points of STR,
hence 8" of flight.
8 8" Flight Only to Offset Mass(-1)
This could be placed with other powers, such as Damage Reduction, in a
Density Decrease EC, or Linked together. Other GMs might assign a
larger limitation.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 13:09:53 -0500
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Joe Mucchiello writes:
>This is a quote from his site about the spell system:
>http://www.planetx.org/~joe/gaming/dh/spells.html
>>Here's the vast majority of ad&d spells; note that the spells often
differ
>>pretty highly from what the original did. I try to preserve the flavor of
>>the spells where possible...
>Also he did for first ed AD&D. WotC/TSR does not publish any 1st ed stuff
>any more. Also, most of the monsters lack disadvantages. I only looked
>through a few of them but the underdark creatures did not have the -1 or
-2
>to hit (i.e. -1 OCV) in full daylight. And that was just a quick glance.
>As I said, hundreds of pages and it would not be balanced in HERO.
I've looked at part of this Dungeon Hero site. I think the author also
stated fairly clearly (in the "Preface" I believe) that he did this more to
prove that it could be done, rather than because he had a burning desire to
play AD&D using Hero. One thing he got bang on: He tried to identify what
he wanted to keep and what he wanted to "lose" during the conversion. No
one in their right mind would attempt to convert something that was exactly
AD&D. Just play AD&D, if that's what you want. He kept levels; I didn't.
So if I wrote that AD&D convesion book, I'd probably be asking for his help
in that area.
A conversion book would not and should not attempt to list every spell.
But it could show how to convert the "flavor" of certain AD&D effects into
Hero mechanics. On of the prime examples is saving throws. Dungeon Hero
and I both handle these in a similar fashion. We essentially say that you
don't need the concept, because Hero mechanics do not have automatic
results. A character does not need saving throws, because they already
have DCV, dodging, etc. State that with a few examples, and they guy using
the conversion book knows what to do when he sees a AD&D creature with +2
on its saving throws.
Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 13:24:13 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
To: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll: Line of Sight
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Filksinger wrote:
> > From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
> >
> >
> >
> > Filksinger wrote:
> >
> <snip>
> > > Yes, but the light is not the issue. If you look through binoculars, you see the target. If you look at a television screen, you see a picture of the target that does not necessarily have any connection to the actual location of the target. One tells you where the target is, not only an absolute sense (He is in the Oval Office), but in a relative sense as well (he is to my right, over my head, exactly there). The other does not.
> >
> > Granted, but does not knowing that the target is in the Oval Office give the egoist's mind scan roll no minuses. Also it the target was on a survaillance camera and the exact location of the area being viewed was well known to the egoist and its relative location to their location then, by your reasoning, the mind scan would not be necessary.
>
> That is something I might allow. However, the mentalist's knowledge of the location, the camera, and their relationship to him would have to be very precise.
agreed.
>
>
> Thus, if you know where the Oval Office is in relationship to you, such that you could say, "I will teleport X miles, feet, and inches in Y direction" and expect to end up inside of it at a particular spot, and you knew the inside of the Oval Office precisely enough that looking through the camera would tell you exactly where in the Oval Office, _in relation to you_ that they were, then it _might_ be possible. However, the degree of understanding of the target's location necessary is so precise given the distances and variables involved that I might decide that that ability to integrate all of those together constituted a Power, and require that the mentalist buy the power.
>
I also agee here, as I stated before. The expenditure of points in the same fashion as teleporters do to memorize a location would probably be a fair extension of the rules that wuold not be unbalancing or to expensive. A couple of points for a set locatio and 5 points for a floating one. Here again it comes down to knowing the location of the targetted mind.
> After all, how many people who are, say, ten miles or more from the Oval Office right now can tell you how many feet it is to the President's chair? That kind of detail surpasses normal Area Knowlege.
>
Extremely few, but them how many people have Mental Powers :)
> > >
> > >
> > > If I look through binoculars at someone, I know exactly where they are. If I look through a TV screen at someone, I do not.
> > >
> >
> > So you've never lost you sence of distance when using binoculars? It is a fairly common thing to do, and most people need a second or two reorient themselvs after use binoculars or telescopes.
>
> And thus I might give penalties to a mentalist who used his powers when viewing his target through binoculars. Training, in the form of levels with his power that negated these penalties would allow him to target normally.
>
I whole heartedly agree.
> > >
> > > My brain is not hooked into the system, so I cannot use the cameras as a Targeting Sense.
> >
> > Your Eyes are the targeting sence, I hope your brain is hooked up to your eyes :)
>
> Of course. And since my eyes can see the screen, I can target the screen. My eyes cannot see the President, they see a picture of the President. Thus, I can target the picture, but not normally the President.
>
Again, line of sight versus location of mind. We may have to agree to disagree on this one.
> <snip>
> >
> > Niether the camera nor the missile are doing the targetting it the pilot that is doing the targetting. The camera is giving him a group of targets to shoot at. The pilot selects a target and then targets the missile. The computer then does its best to hit the targetted location.
>
> True. You are confusing the military definition of targeting and the definition as used with Targeting Sense in Hero. In Hero, in order to aim a weapon, you need a Targeting Sense, which allows you to aim a weapon based upon the information given. The camera, with its precise relationship to the military man using it, can qualify because of training and the precision involved. Thus, he could possibly, probably with negatives, aim a mental sense with that camera, just as he could look at the camera, lean out the door, and without looking at anything but the video monitor, shoot someone he sees in the monitor with a pistol, but with difficulty (i.e. negatives).
>
Agreed. I've never said there wouldn't be negitives or training involved in using Mantal Powers through a video feed. What I've been saying is that there is nothing to inherently prohibit a mentalist from using a CRT to assist them in locating a target.
> The system as a whole, camera, monitor, missile, and _computer linking them_, is a Targeting Sense _for the missle_, and thus allows the equvallent of LOS for that missile. The knowledge of the user, the camera, the monitor, and the knowlege of the precise relationship of the camera to the user could allow, with negatives, that Targeting Sense to be used with other weapons.
>
> > > If your camera is set up so that a man, walking into the room, can, solely by looking at the screen, aim his super gun and hit a man standing by the camera, then it can be used as a targetting sense. TV does not meet this criteria. You cannot walk into a video store, see a live broadcast on the television, aim your supergun, and expect to hit the reporter hundreds or thousands of miles away. All of your examples are targetting systems, and looking at the monitor you know where the target is. A television camera doesn't meet the criteria.
> > >
> >
> > Given a calculator, map and mussle volicity to accelerant equation, I could do calculate the angles and amount of acceleratn necessary for such a shot. It's very basic trig. Given time to prepare set knowns ahead of time and a programmable calculator the shot could be set up in less then a minute. Of course the advantage of Ego powers is no tragetory knowledge is needed just the relative location of the target.
>
> So, if you walked into a video store, saw Charlton Heston in a live interview on the TV, you could work out a precise tragectory to him using a calculator, a map, detailed knowledge of your weapon, and the proper equations? Interesting. I, in the same situation, wouldn't be able to tell you what continent he was on for certain, and definitely couldn't tell you where he was on a map.
What if he was standing in front of the washington monument. The applicablity is in the details of the situation.
>
>
> Given sufficient information, you might convince me to allow mental powers through a TV camera. However, you would have to prove that you could, given the information you have, locate the target with precision enough to shoot them, with a weapon no more linked to the camera than your head is.
>
I agree, I never said it was probable just that it's not inpossible. You might want to say that you would need an AK of 19 of the area and then roll a 10 or less to get sufficient information to make the attack. In such a situation it comes down to getting sufficient information to make the attack. The camera is not prohibiting you from making the attack though.
> Of course, if your head _is_ plugged into the camera, all bets are off. That, however, would require you buy powers to simulate this ability.
Of course, spending sufficient points to get the special effect needed is always a possiblity. That's the buety of the Hero System.
>
>
> Filksinger
>
> ____________________________________________________________________
> Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 13:35:47 -0500
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Bob Greenwade writes:
>snip lots of stuff I completely agree with<
> Trying to list literally "all possible claws," though, would be
roughtly
>equivalent to trying to list "all possible combinations of HKA with
>Advantages and Limitations."
> Stephen and Dave, does this sound about right to you guys?
Well "all possible claws" is Joe's phrase, not mine :-) But I do agree
that 100% is not possible. I'm probably extreme, in that I think even
Dave's rough 90% is a little low, but that's because I have a different
perspective on it.
There are actually two "alls" to talk about. "All possible", which is
everything and anything ever devised in Hero, by anyone, past, present, or
future. I dont' think you can do even 25% of these, because Hero is a
living, growing (thus ever changing) entity. I wouldn't presume to say
what it will look like in 25 years.
Then there is the "All reasonably possible", which is something like: Take
what we know now, pull out the components into their own sections, always
keeping in mind the limits of book space, editor and writer time, etc.
What percentage you get here depends on the people working on it and the
time they have.
There is a very real sense in which you cannot do components until someone
(or usually a lot of someones) has struggled through with full-fledged
examples. Obviously, now that we have the Bestiary, it would be easier to
identify what occurs a lot (e.g. claws) and what occurs rarely (e.g.
vampiric drains). So next addition, the editor and writers pull out all
the obvious components, try to make educated guesses on the rest, and time
permitting, even add a few ones to fill in logical gaps. With all that
settled, the whole Hero crowd will quit wasting time building claws and the
like. Instead, they will design new things that no one has thought of yet.
Some of these will be new components or changes to components--which the
editor and author will again have to incorporate in the subsequent
editions--or preferably, subsequent add-on books.
Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 11:49:25 -0700
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
I wrote:
>a very large list of predefined superpowers (which should cover
>about 90% of character conceptions).
Joe M wrote:
>90%? Really? How about Ice Man? Multiple Man? A guy who can
>teleport anywhere in the world instantly? A guy who can create large
>amounts of water? A man whose arms are actually demons he can
>unleash leaving him quadriplegic (a Marvel villain)?
Ice Man: Yes
Multiple Man: Yes
Teleport Anywhere Man: Yes
Water Man: Yes
Demon Arm Man: Sort of, depends on exactly what he can do. Maybe the
Anatomical Separation powers; maybe Alter Ego(s); maybe Gestalt Body;
maybe Body of Demon; maybe a combination thereof...
>When you say 90%, does that mean 90% of all concepts currently in
>superhero comics? I tend to doubt it. I think you can achieve 75%
>and still make a readable book.
Not 90% of finished concepts, no. But 80 - 90% of the pieces will be
there. For example, there won't be a listing for Superman or Batman, but
you can find the pieces to build a flying boy scout brick with laser
beam eyes, or a martial artist detective with a utility belt and other
gadgets.
>Second, Hero Plus is not exactly easy to flip through.
I agree, but, as Hero Games says, if it's a choice of published on Hero
Plus or not published at all, at least with Hero Plus, they have a
chance to get the material out to some people. And who knows, if I'm
extremely fortunate and this becomes the 5th edition superhero genre
book, it might see print after all...
Joe M wrote:
>Claws can be attached to a rat or Godzilla. The base damage for rat
>claws is (at most) 1 pip HKA + strength. Godzilla's are AoE Line
>HKAs (+ strength) because his hand is so big. Some have Reduced
>Penetration. Some are Armor Piercing or Penetrating.
Yes, but what if there were a discussion of the types of claws, and what
each type does, and how each type is modeled in game terms, and why
those particular models were chosen, and how to extend or modify the
types, and what you can expect if you do, etc...
For a limited (but long) example of what I'm talking about, you can
check out my Size and Density Powers article at
http://www/haymaker.org/haym15.html -- it covers at least half of the
possibilities available with those powers. This is the kind of thing I'd
like to do with all powers.
Bob G wrote:
>I don't think "all possible X" could ever be done; but a *reasonable
>range* of claws, wings, bites, etc., certainly could be -- that is,
those
>that are *likely* to be used by creatures owned or encountered by PCs
>in any given genre. If a creature has claws with some unusual
>property, then these can be modified.
Yes, that's pretty much what I was hoping for with superpowers.
>A new edition of the Hero Bestiary (and I hope there is one under the
>5th edition) should show how claws are built as a standard practice,
>and give a table of claws ranging from a housecat's to a dragon's. If
it's
>reasonably common for claws to have a certain unusual ability (though
>none spring to mind right offhand), then a separate section of the
table
>should list that. The whole table would probably be no bigger than the
>list of swords in TUMA. A creature whose claws have some unusual
>property would simply have its claws detailed out.
Since claws are also a superpower, I plan to do a section on them in The
Ultimate Superhero.
As I picture it (and this is off the top of my head, not with the amount
of notes and thought that I'd like to put into it), there will be a
discussion of hand claws, foot claws, tail claws, face claws (horns),
and miscellaneous claws. Claws that are permanent, retractable,
throwable/launchable, claws that are natural and artificial, small to
medium to large to extra large claws, poison claws, claws that attack as
a group or separately, and probably lots more.
There will be a table of various claws (similar to the weapon charts),
as well as a sentence or three about each listing -- discussing what
makes them different from others, a listing of how to adapt them to
other types of claws, to change their size, their effectiveness, etc.
And in the beginning of the section, there will be discussions about how
to modify existing entries, combine them with others, adapt them to
different scales, etc. so that hopefully, even newbies will be able to
create a complete character very quickly.
Dave Mattingly
http://www.haymaker.org
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Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 15:08:23 -0400
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 08:12 AM 5/30/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> For instance, a player with TUMA could tell his GM, "I want my mech to
>have a Shoulder Cannon II," the GM could look that up in his copy of TUMA,
>okay it, and the player would only have to write in "Shoulder Cannon II" on
>his mech's sheet for 19 points (58 active). Or, if the GM prefers, he
>could write it out to, "4d6 RKA, -1 OCV, +2 Range Mod, 8 charges, Vehicular
>OIF, 60 degree arc of fire." If he's using HeroMaker (or, in the hopefully
>near future, Creation Workshop with Hero Creator) and bought the on-disk
>version of TUMA, he could just pull the Shoulder Cannon II from the file of
>"Slug Throwers - Mounted."
There are shoulder cannons in TUMA? I have Ninja Hero and thought TUMA was
just an update. But, be that as it may...
Claws will not have -1 OCV or charges, etc. This is why I'm having a
problem with it. Claws depend on the size of the creature using them.
There is not a lot of variation in claws. How does a list of mouse to
dragon claws really help? I don't see it. What value does this have?
House cat 1 pip HKA, Red. Pen.(1/2D6 max with strength) 5/4
Dog/Coyote 1/2D6 HKA, Red. Pen. (1D6+1 max with strength) 10/8
Tiger 1D6 HKA, Red. Pen. (2D6 max with strength) 15/12
Gargoyle 1D6 HKA (2d6 max with strength) 15
Bear 1 1/2D6 HKA, Red. Pen. (3D6 max with strength) 25/20
Dragon 2 1/2D6 HKA, Red. Pen. (5D6 max with strength) 50/40
Godzilla 2D6 HKA, AoE Line (4D6 max with strength) 60
> On the other hand, the player could also say, "I want my mech to have a
>weapon like the Shoulder Cannon II, but Armor Piercing," then he still
>could; the weapon would just do 2-1/2d6 RKA AP instead of a straight 4d6 RKA.
Okay, but nothing about this list tells you to reduce the 4D6 to 2.5D6.
You have to know the system just as well to make that should cannon as to
make one from scratch, IMHO.
> Similarly, the lists of swords in FH, NH, TUMA, and other books help
>give a standardized idea of what a given sword should be able to do.
Now this is a good reason for a paragraph not a list. I think the list
would be boring since natural weaponry will not have as much variation as
the sword lists.
> I agree with the other guys that a similar standard should be set for
>claws. A new edition of the Hero Bestiary (and I hope there is one under
>the 5th edition) should show how claws are built as a standard practice,
>and give a table of claws ranging from a housecat's to a dragon's. If it's
>reasonably common for claws to have a certain unusual ability (though none
>spring to mind right offhand), then a separate section of the table should
>list that. The whole table would probably be no bigger than the list of
>swords in TUMA. A creature whose claws have some unusual property would
>simply have its claws detailed out.
Okay. Stephen was talking pages and that was what I was having trouble
with. The whole table should be less than half a page with maybe two
paragraphs of text. Poison would be its own section.
Joe
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Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 15:51:43 -0400
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 11:49 AM 5/30/98 -0700, Dave Mattingly wrote:
>Joe M wrote:
>>Claws can be attached to a rat or Godzilla. The base damage for rat
>>claws is (at most) 1 pip HKA + strength. Godzilla's are AoE Line
>>HKAs (+ strength) because his hand is so big. Some have Reduced
>>Penetration. Some are Armor Piercing or Penetrating.
>
>Yes, but what if there were a discussion of the types of claws, and what
>each type does, and how each type is modeled in game terms, and why
>those particular models were chosen, and how to extend or modify the
>types, and what you can expect if you do, etc...
What are you talking about? There's HKA. Maybe there's HA or raw STR but
there are not any other base powers that convey Claw. Remember poison and
other weird effects are part of a different section. How much discussion
would there be?
>For a limited (but long) example of what I'm talking about, you can
>check out my Size and Density Powers article at
>http://www.haymaker.org/haym15.html -- it covers at least half of the
>possibilities available with those powers. This is the kind of thing I'd
>like to do with all powers.
Limited?? Maybe. But Size and Density is a lot more diverse than Claws.
The number of fingers, the curvature, the flexibility, etc of the claw is
not relevant to how the power is purchased.
>And in the beginning of the section, there will be discussions about how
>to modify existing entries, combine them with others, adapt them to
>different scales, etc. so that hopefully, even newbies will be able to
>create a complete character very quickly.
Well, I'm still skeptical about this. The February archetype discussion
seems so long ago. But, good luck.
Joe
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Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 15:53:52 -0400
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 12:51 PM 5/30/98 -0500, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote:
>Joe Mucchiello writes:
>>But there is a big difference between claws and weapons. A dagger is a
>>8-15" bladed weapon. It does about 1/2d6K damage. If you make it longer
>>it becomes a different weapon. Claws on the other hand (snicker), can be
>>attached to a rat or Godzilla. The base damage for rat claws is (at most)
>>1 pip HKA + strength. Godzilla's are AoE Line HKAs (+ strength) because
>>his hand is so big. Now, what else can be said about Claws? Some have
>>Reduced Penetration. Some are Armor Piercing or Penetrating.
>
>But there isn't a big difference between claws and weapons. I said
>substitute "claws" for "weapons", not "claws" for "dagger". Sure, the
>dagger is one example. A rat's claws are another example. They are both
>examples of a class of something, which (at least in Hero terms), are
>typically built with a finite set of mechanics.
Claws have no STR min. They never "Can be thrown". You don't put +1/-1
OCV on the Claws you give them to the creature. They are not handed. They
are not OAF, Independent or anything else like that. Claws are DCs of HKA.
Most of them are Red. Pen., very few of them are Increased STUN Multiple,
Armor Piercing or Penetrating. That's about it.
The weapon charts have 6 columns (without a cost column), claws would have
3 (name, DCs, cost: see my other post).
>And you are supporting my argument indirectly. Until you mentioned it, I
>wouldn't have thought of including AoE for large claws, even though I've
>seen AoE used for similar things in the past. Or maybe it would have
>eventually occurred to me. Either way, you saved me some time and made my
>theoretical "claw" write up more interesting and complete.
That's why I said you would leave things out when I made the challenge. :-)
But that is an example. You would only include it in dinosaurs and
Godzilla. Even dragons are too small for line attack claws.
>Retractable vs non-retractable. If not retractable, can the creature still
>grab things, and at what minus?
Dagger does not have "can be put down". In any event, that is not part of
the claws, that is part of the creature. It would be a Phys Lim. At best
it isn't even a Phys Lim and is just a Special Effect.
>When using reduced penetration, does extra damage from STR apply before or
>after the base power is split? Or, put another way, to add a damage class
>to a rdcd pen (x2) attack, do you need 5 STR or 10 STR? I've done it both
>ways, and only gradually came to learn towards the latter. (Although, that
>whole issues belongs under rdcd pen.)
Yes, it does belong under Red. Pen. DCs are affected by STR. You add the
DCs first. Roll the dice. The body caused is divided by two and applied
to the target's defenses twice. Reread Red. Pen. There really is no doubt
about this.
>I'm looking for a "Beast Builder", either as a separate book or as a
>beginning to the Bestiary. Or maybe not either. Once the "Beast Builder"
>is written, it might apply to a lot more than beasts, in which case, some
>of the components should move up to a more general book. What is left
>might only be a few pages in the Bestiary.
I think an Ultimate Monster book ;-) would be very short on how and very
long on examples of complete creatures. Of course, that would be a more
late-90s name for the Beastiary.
Joe
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Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 15:54:00 -0400
To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net, Firelynx16@aol.com
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll: Line of Sight
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 11:23 AM 5/30/98 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote:
>In Hero Games' systems everything comes down to FX (as so many commonly
quote). I
>have said before the FX of a TV camera IMHO is that of Telecsopic vision, not
>Cairasentience. Your above reasoning for stopping at the telescopic
vision at the
>CRT seems to be that there are various tranlations involved in the
transmittling
>the picture from its source to the egoist destination.
I haven't been paying too much attention to this thread, but I think the
others are calling the TV: Images. Not Clairsentience UBO, not Telescopic
vision UBO. That's why LOS is not possible through an ordinary TV.
If the egoist pays points for a monitor system with clairsentience or Mind
Scan, then, and only then, can the mentalist use it for targetting.
Joe
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: How Complicated Is Champions?
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 13:12:29 -0700
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Joe M wrote:
>There's HKA. Maybe there's HA or raw STR but there are not any
>other base powers that convey Claw. Remember poison and other
>weird effects are part of a different section. How much discussion
>would there be?
Poison would indeed be in a separate section, but poisons can need to be
ingested, injected, breathed, etc. and will have a wide variety of
effects. The part about poisons that would be relevant to claws, though,
might need to be discussed.
For example, if a claw does deliver a poison, is it all the time or part
of the time. If it's part of the time, is it voluntary? Does it run out?
Does the claw only deliver poison, or can it damage on its own? Does the
claw need to draw blood for the poison to work, or does it just have to
touch the skin? Is the attacker immune to it or not? etc.
>The number of fingers, the curvature, the flexibility, etc of the
>claw is not relevant to how the power is purchased.
In a bestiary of normal animals, probably not. But fantastic animals or
superheroes open the doors a lot wider. If a newbie player wants
Wolverine claws on his Iron Man costume, he can look to the claw section
and look for artificial metallic retractable claws and scale it
appropriate to the material he wants.
>Claws have no STR min. They never "Can be thrown". ...
What about quills (a kind of full-body claw...)? Also, ever see
Thundercats? Liono could throw his claws. Just about every claw rule you
listed can be broken. By handling the types of things that claws can and
cannot do, and giving enough components, the reader can pick or create
an appropriate claw.
>The weapon charts have 6 columns (without a cost column), claws would
>have 3 (name, DCs, cost: see my other post).
and a column for charges, and range, and a sample creature, and unusual
notes, and maybe something else or two.
>Dagger does not have "can be put down". In any event, that is not part
>of the claws, that is part of the creature.
Normal creatures, yes. Superheroes, no.
>But, good luck.
Thanks. It's quite an ambitious project.
Dave Mattingly
http://www.haymaker.org
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Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 15:17:53 -0500
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: A Golden Age Campaign with a Twist
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>At 11:45 AM 5/29/1998 -0500, Guy Hoyle wrote:
>>Is Mastermind a time-traveller from another timeline still? Dunno. I had
>in mind that he wasn't, but it could be interesting. It could open up the
>whole campaign to time-travellers from still other timelines, trying to
>change their own futures. Might be a can
>> of worms I don't want to open.
>
> It might also be a reasonably logical -- and remarkably consistent --
>way of introducing any new PCs into the campaign. They're simply
>introduced in a storyline in which they must prevent some past event which
>leads to the dark future from which they come.
The problem with time travel as a regular event is that it would probably tend to take over the campaign as a whole. By making their method of time travel dependant on some kind of projector from the future (which, of course, does not exist after they have changed history), time travel is less likely to dominate the campaign. However, getting new PCs from the same future might not be too tough; maybe the PCs have been preceded by other, failed groups of operatives.
Even after they've defeated Mastermind, however, they'll still have to watch out for other events which could lead to their future. Perhaps someone arises to take Mastermind's place in history. I remember a Time Patrol story (Poul Anderson) where the TP encountered a changed timeline that they traced back to one individual; they set him back on what they thought was the correct course of history, and encountered a new alternate timeline; they changed it again, and encountered a THIRD alternate timeline... Time travel is a big can o' worms to open.
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org&>
"Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net>
Date: Sat, 30 May 98 20:38:30
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Fri, 29 May 1998 21:40:30 -0500, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote:
>qts writes
>>>qts writes
>>>><snip> I would suggest that the
>>>>person who is interested in Hero is wanting to move on from another RPG
>>>>system. I have great difficulty in envisaging anyone taking up Hero
>>>>'cold'.
>>>
>>>My most recent count shows 50+ players in my FH campaigns since 1992.
>Only
>>>2 had previous Hero experience, and about half had previous role-playing
>>>experience.
>
>>Yes, and how many of those GMed first time? How many of the others had
>>their characters designed for them? Perhaps I should have been more
>>precise.
>
>>> These are people who really appreciate
>>>Hero and want to get into more. A bunch have bought the rules after
>>>playing in my games.
>
>>This is usually what happens in my games.
>
>Maybe we are talking past each other. We seem to both agree that Hero as
>it stands now is not for the beginner.
Yes,
> I gather that you think that is an
>inevitable consequence of Hero's great flexibility.
Yes, with one important caveat - see below.
> I argue that Hero
>could change to accommodate beginners (and other's turned off by its
>CURRENT complexity).
I accept the theoretical; I dispute the practical. No rules changes are
needed, no reduction in complexity, just clarifications and examples.
> If this paragraph is wrong, please correct me. OTOH,
>if I've got it right, tell me why you think Hero must remain too
>complicated for the beginner.
The nub of the problem, IMO, is that so many examples would be needed
- examples (note plural) for *each* Power, Advantage, Limitation, and
many examples for frameworks, sample characters, sample FH spells,
extensive discussions of Drains etc - that the size of the book would
be prohibitive. I have suggested putting the bulk on CD.
Further, the quality of the book would have to vastly improve.
Even then, a beginner is going to be daunted: they just want to start
playing ASAP, which is easy with AD&D, but not Hero.
It's a marketting problem, not a rules problem.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 16:56:10 -0400 (EDT)
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Bye, y'all.
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
I've come to the conclusion that the Champs list isn't really worth my time
and energy anymore, as I'm deleting something like 95% of the traffic
without reading all the way through it. I've lost interest and I feel the
list has lost whatever it's had in the last two years. So I'm unsubscribing.
Thanks to all the people who actually did make this a fun place to be for so
long - I hope the 5th Edition will breathe new life into the list; I'll
probably check back when it comes out.
Goodbye,
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"FORM BLAZIN' SHILLELAGH!"
-Vaultron Force, Gold Digger #38
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins and Ron Prins
jprins@interhop.net
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 17:30:29 -0500
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Dave Mattingly writes:
>As I picture it (and this is off the top of my head, not with the amount
>of notes and thought that I'd like to put into it), there will be a
>discussion of hand claws, foot claws, tail claws, face claws (horns),
>and miscellaneous claws. Claws that are permanent, retractable,
>throwable/launchable, claws that are natural and artificial, small to
>medium to large to extra large claws, poison claws, claws that attack as
>a group or separately, and probably lots more.
I'd tend to make horns a different entry, or at least a distinct section.
To me, it's the same issue as "bites." Somewhere in this whole discussion,
I realized that what I was thinking of as "bites", was actually different
sections on "teeth" and "beaks". I haven't explored this fully enough to
be sure, but I have the feeling that components should always be something
you could put your hands on (at least in a literary sense--i.e. nouns, not
verbified nouns like "bite"). So all these creature attacks might have a
lot of cross-reference. "To see how to build these horns, see claws,
permanent."
Poison is a separate component altogether, because it can be used
independently of claws.
Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 17:46:39 -0500 (CDT)
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To: champ-l@omg.org
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Delayed Teleport...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Ok, I know it has been a while since anyone has heard from me. I'm
just behind the times on e-mail. Then again, ain't I always saying this
when I do send out some e-mail? Oh well, here is my question for the month
concerning Champions. Want to build a character who steps into a teleport
disk and steps back out a couple of phases later. This is his own super
power. But basically a delayed teleport, also making him relatively safe
for the amount of time he is in his teleport dimension. Any clue how this
would be built? Usually my questions are easy and I'm just not thinking
when I'm asking, but we'll see. Thanks and talk at you later.
Sparx
==================================================================
3000+ E-mail? I don't keep up with the list and blame it entirely on
alternate dimesions.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com>
To: "Champs List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Normals with Powers
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 18:01:23 -0500
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John and Ron Prins wrote:
>Granted, that's not many powers, but they are powers...
I personally have sound and smell images as natural powers. :-)
Alan
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Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 18:04:16 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
To: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll: Line of Sight
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Filksinger wrote:
> > From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
> <snip>
> > Line of Soght is not the only way to attack with mental powers. It's line of
> > sight or a successful Mind Scan, which as someone else stated previously, points
> > to being able to locate the mind of the target. In HSR on page 55 it states that
> > Mental powers are not stopped by conventional barriers and goes on to give the
> > N-Ray vision example. So please explain how a TV is a barrier that you cannot use
> > mental powers through. There are plenty of legends and SF stories where Telepathy
> > us used through crystal balls, is that not analigous to Mental Powers through a
> > cathode ray tube.
>
> A couple of reasons, actually.
>
> 1. You didn't buy Clairvoyance for the television system. It already
> exists, and has certain features that limit it, such as your inability to
> precisely locate the camera in relation to you. If you were to buy
> Clairvoyance (SFX Closed circuit camera), you might choose to take
> such limitations, or choose to spend the points needed to bypass the
> limitations. Either way, as you didn't buy the television network as a
> Power, you must buy a full Power to use it in a fashion thatbypasses
> its limitations.
>
I've already said that a TV , IMO, is not clairvoyence. It's telescopic vision, with
usuable by others, independant, OAF, Large, must have reciever (the TV) and a large area
of effect. So why can mental powers be helped by telescopic vision through binoculars
and not through a CRT?
> 2. It may require special powers to use Clairvoyance in this fashion.
> Thus, the ability to do this may cost more points than just Clairvoyance.
>
> There is some precident to using Clairvoyance to target Mental
> powers, however. The Mystic Masters book mentions this as a way to
> design astral bodies for super sorcerers, and indicates that you can
> use mental powers. Keep in mind that Clairvoyance is visible,
> however, and your target would know he was being watched unless
> you bought IPE.
>
> Regardless, the lack of knowledge as to precisely where a TV
> camera is in relation to you negates this possibility over a TV. A
> character who actually bought Clairvoyance knows where the view is
> in relation to him, as he declares where he wants to look in order to
> see through it. Television does not tell you where the target is,
> normally.
>
> Filksinger
>
Once again it depends on the situation. The negitives applied to the power may make the
possiblity of success extremely improbable, it does not mean it can;g be done.
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Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 18:08:58 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
To: John Lansford <johnl@vnet.net>
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll: Line of Sight
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
John Lansford wrote:
> >They can do that anyway, if the HQ is tall enough. As can anybody
> >with a No Range Mod attack, for that matter.
>
> Within the range of their power. There's no range limitation if you
> allow someone to attack through their television screen.
>
> John Lansford
>
> http://users.vnet.net/lansford/a10/
Then what is the range limit on the use of mental powers when used in
conjuntions with mind scan?
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com>
To: "Champs List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll: Line of Sight
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 18:30:47 -0500
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Ross Rannells wrote:
>I've already said that a TV , IMO, is not clairvoyence. It's telescopic
vision, with
>usuable by others, independant, OAF, Large, must have reciever (the TV) and
a large area
>of effect. So why can mental powers be helped by telescopic vision through
binoculars
>and not through a CRT?
The above will not properly duplicate a television. TV allows me to see
into places that no amount of telescopic vision will allow. To function
even close to TV you would also need Telescopic Hearing, and N-Ray bought on
both your normal sight and normal hearing. This would still not totally
duplicate TV. You haven't changed your perspective on the event. To do
that would require buying Indirect on your sight and hearing and the proper
way to do that is through Clairsentience.
Alan
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Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 19:45:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: David Majors <asmodeus@shell.ezy.net>
To: Sparx <psansone@i1.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Delayed Teleport...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
The most simple way to do this is to make it a time based
extra-dimensional movement with the special effect only into the future
unless the character can heal during the interval between when he leaves
and then reappears.
It "could" be purchased as follows:
E-D Movement always forward 1 turn into the future 40 active points(20 for
ED movement and +20 for time travel)
If he can vary the span of time he jumps within a range of lets say upp to
one minute(GM must make a call on what he feels is a reasonable limit for
10 acive points):
E-D Movement 40 active points +10 into the future limited to 1 minute
maximum.
About the healing capability, you could just have him use the power twice
to a specific dimension and then back after a predeclared time-frame.
This power would be the cheapest, but GMs would probably not like this
power in the game.(really easy to abuse this one and get away from all
sorts of death traps)
E-D Movement 20 active points to ONE specific dimesion that would sustain
human life.
- David Majors
On Sat, 30 May 1998, Sparx wrote:
> Ok, I know it has been a while since anyone has heard from me. I'm
> just behind the times on e-mail. Then again, ain't I always saying this
> when I do send out some e-mail? Oh well, here is my question for the month
> concerning Champions. Want to build a character who steps into a teleport
> disk and steps back out a couple of phases later. This is his own super
> power. But basically a delayed teleport, also making him relatively safe
> for the amount of time he is in his teleport dimension. Any clue how this
> would be built? Usually my questions are easy and I'm just not thinking
> when I'm asking, but we'll see. Thanks and talk at you later.
>
>
> Sparx
>
> ==================================================================
> 3000+ E-mail? I don't keep up with the list and blame it entirely on
> alternate dimesions.
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>
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From: Eric Pawtowski <epawtows@acm.vt.edu>
Subject: Renton GM?
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 20:35:21 -0400 (EDT)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Sorry for the intrusion everyone, but there was a Champs GM in
Renton, MD, whom I was Emailing with a few weeks ago, and I
managed to accidentaly delete all mail from him and I forgot his
name. If you're still here, could you Email me again? Thanks.
Eric
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Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 23:10:54 -0400
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: House Rules
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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> Oh, another house-rules related oddity I've encountered (usually at
> convention games) - people who don't realize that they've been using
> modified rules. I met many players who never really read the rules
> (to whatever game was in questions at the time) carefully, just
> learned from a GM who had his own set of house rules. What a disaster
> con-games were, with folks who didn't know the rules but were
> convinced they did.
A very good point, and one I had never considered. Now that I think about
it, there have been lots of times at cons that I've run into players who
had some off-the-wall (to me) idea about the way the rules worked, and I
would find myself thinking, "How in the world does he get THIS (his
interpretation) from THAT (the rule book)?!" In retrospect, I think I see
what was happening.
On a related note, my current GM has rewritten large portions of the rules,
even going so far as to rename "his" system. His skill system is so
convoluted that it's impossible for any of the current players to create a
character without the GM's direct oversight. I've been playing Hero since
the 2nd edition, but some of the players are new to the game, and now I'm
wondering what will happen if and when some of them move on to other Hero
games campaigns.
"Comeliness -- what's that? And what do you mean there's no such thing as a
Mass stat?!"
Jeff Reid
Morfhis@compuserve.com
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm
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Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 11:30:26 +0800
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au>
Reply-To: gazza@wantree.com.au
Organization: Only One Inc.
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> GAZZA writes:
>
> > In fact, there is the option in heroic games to have extra Running
> > increase the leaping distance.
>
> It is not an option for heroic games, it is a standard rule for all
> games. Half your (current) running velocity adds to your leap
> distance.
Lies! Damn Lies! :-)
The ONLY reference I can find ANYWHERE in the BBB that says
you can add half your running to leaping is on page 172 under
"Jumping".
The relevant quote is:
"In HEROIC (emphasis mine) campaigns, fast moving characters
may leap further..."
Further indications that the rule is optional are that the
description of Leaping (page 144) does not mention it at all.
Neither does the description of Superleap on page 85.
Either the designers are guilty of truly ABOMINABLE editing
here, or else the rule only applies to heroic campaigns (as
stated).
--
GAZZA (gazza@wantree.com.au; http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza)
"To know others is wisdom. To know oneself is enlightment."
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Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 11:31:35 +0800
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au>
Reply-To: gazza@wantree.com.au
Organization: Only One Inc.
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> > Seems to me that your average athlete isn't going to be getting
> > much out of that Push - +1", or maybe +2 on a good day.
>
> With a 12- Ego roll and a 3, that comes out to 9 active points. I
> call that a record-setting effort.
Uh... you are aware, of course, that heroic characters can only
push STR, right? Even 9 active points is barely +2", assuming that
their STR was 11 or less to start with.
--
GAZZA (gazza@wantree.com.au; http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza)
"To know others is wisdom. To know oneself is enlightment."
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Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 11:32:30 +0800
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au>
Reply-To: gazza@wantree.com.au
Organization: Only One Inc.
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> > Running up buildings -
>
> This is a special effect, not a Power.
>
> [...]
>
> > Tough skin (as in "bounces bullets") -
>
> Again, this is a special effect.
>
> Yes, there is frequently more than one way to simulate a particular
> special effect. But that is a different kettle of fish from using
> one power to simulate another power.
EG, there is more than one way to simulate the special effect of
being able to climb really fast in bad conditions, you mean?
:-)
--
GAZZA (gazza@wantree.com.au; http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza)
"To know others is wisdom. To know oneself is enlightment."
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Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 21:08:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dale Ward <daleaward@rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: Delayed Teleport...
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Greetings,
> psansone@i1.net (Sparx) writes,
> > Want to build a character who steps into a teleport
> >disk and steps back out a couple of phases later. This is his own super
> >power. But basically a delayed teleport, also making him relatively safe
> >for the amount of time he is in his teleport dimension. Any clue how this
> >would be built?
>
Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me he could save a bunch
of points just by stepping into a closet and popping back out after a couple
of phases...
Does he actually go anywhere?
Dale A. Ward
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
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Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 23:09:32 -0500
To: hero-l@sysabend.org
From: "Joe Claffey Jr." <jrc@mail1.nai.net>
Subject: Re: Delayed Teleport...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
psansone@i1.net (Sparx) writes,
> Want to build a character who steps into a teleport
>disk and steps back out a couple of phases later. This is his own super
>power. But basically a delayed teleport, also making him relatively safe
>for the amount of time he is in his teleport dimension. Any clue how this
>would be built?
Sounds like a heavily limited form of Extra-Dimensional Movement. It
sounds like it uses an Obvious, Inaccessible, Immobile Focus (-1 1/2), and
he automatically returns after 2 phases (-2?). Active cost 20, real cost 4.
If the character actually goes somewhere (Teleport), it could be Linked to
the Teleport (it doesn't change the cost, though). The Teleport would
probably be bought with Extra Time (Full Phase, maybe Full Turn) to
represent the "transit time".
Joe Claffey | "In the end, everything is a gag."
jrc@ct1.nai.net | - Charlie Chaplin
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Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 00:11:38 -0500 (CDT)
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To: champ-l@omg.org
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Delayed Teleport...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me he could save a bunch
>of points just by stepping into a closet and popping back out after a couple
>of phases...
>
> Does he actually go anywhere?
>
>Dale A. Ward
Ah, yes, let me make myself a tad more clear here. I noticed I left that
part out, but I did use the word teleport meaning movement power as in
Champions terms. Yes, I wish to have a character for simple math right now
that can Teleport let's say 10" and it would take him a phase to step into
the dimension and not come out until his next phase. Or for more fun, not
come out until he wants to. Or yet even more fun, length of time depends
on distance of teleport. Now, let's take friends along :) Ok, I have now
thought of one way to do this, but there has got to be a cheaper way.
Teleport
Desolid
Complete Invisible
all somehow linked, maybe adding in Extra Dimensional Travel, but there has
to be an easier way.
What is the point of all of this you might ask? I don't know. Just an
effect I'm trying to pull off, but it does have some real value to it so I
can't just chalk it up to fx. Teleporting only 1" but not being around when
that grenade goes off. Teleporting behind someone, but not appearing until
the entire party is in the room. Teleporting ... well, can't think of a
third example, off the top of my head, my brain is a little rattled tonight,
but I'm sure there are many other reasons. If nothing else, help me for
character concept, if not for effective power. :) Thanks and talk at you
later.
Sparx
==================================================================
3000+ E-mail? I don't keep up with the list and blame it entirely on
alternate dimesions.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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From: Firelynx16@aol.com
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Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 01:19:10 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll: Line of Sight
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
In a message dated 98-05-30 12:15:21 EDT, you write:
> So your "String" is the particulate part of the wave particle duality of
> light,
> correct?
No, the 'string' is simply a way of visualizing the LoS that the attacker has.
I was trying to use it to show that in order to establish LoS, the attacker
has to have a *direct* pathway along his/her targeting sense to the target.
>
> In Hero Games' systems everything comes down to FX (as so many commonly
> quote). I
> have said before the FX of a TV camera IMHO is that of Telecsopic vision,
> not
> Cairasentience. Your above reasoning for stopping at the telescopic vision
> at the
> CRT seems to be that there are various tranlations involved in the
> transmittling
> the picture from its source to the egoist destination. That since the
> egoist
> can't precieve each and every format the signal is in and use each of these
> additional sences as a targetting sence then LOS has been broken. In other
> words
> as soon as the signal gets translated into a fomart the egoist is unable to
> precieve LOS is broken. Correct?
>
> If so, then this is the point of contention. I am of the opinion that the
> intemediary format do not matter, so long as the egoist can understand the
> format
> (and its a targetting sence) they are using, then they would be able to
use
> their
> powers. The various translations that the signal goes through passing from
> your
> eye to your mind is clear proof of this. The fact that the photons get
> translated
> back and forth between chemical and electrical signals before being
> reconstructed
> in the brain then passed to the mind in some currently unknown format is
> proof of
> this. Since the mind does not how to precieve photons or electricity yet
it
> tranlates them into something it can precieve, chemicals and the unknow
> format.
> So the intermediary step IMO do no matter only the final format.
I think I've gotten too complicated in this. Let's simplify. In order to
establish LoS, the attacker must be able to *detect* his/her target with a
targeting sense. A mentalist looking at a tv *cannot* do this with his/her
sight alone because they *cannot* see (detect) the target. They are only able
to see (detect) a *reproduction* of that target on the tv screen. Therefore,
LoS cannot be established. Period. It doesn't matter if the image is a live
feed, or a taped broadcast, the television monitor is *only* capable of
showing an electronic reproduction. Targeting senses work the same for a
mentalist as they do for an energy blaster or a sniper, in that you have to be
able to detect your target with your sense in order to hit them. A sniper
aiming their rifle at an image of a person on a tv screen would, in no stretch
of the imagination, hit that person in real life. (unless they were hiding
behind the tv, maybe) They'd just put a nasty hole in the tv. Same goes for
mentalists.
Now, once again, what I'm describing is just basic mentalist LoS. Adding Mind
Scan, or other Powers/Advantages *can* create a situation where a mentalist
looks at a tv and is able to attack the person whose image is on the screen,
but not without those extra add-ons.
'Lynx
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Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 00:24:00 -0500 (CDT)
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To: champ-l@omg.org
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Delayed Teleport...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
In response to the Extra-Dimensional Movement on my Delayed Teleport. That
won't work because.
A. I want to move forward.
B. I don't want to move to another dimension or at least not one that I can
stay in longer than a few phases.
C. I want it to have all the limitations and pretty much functions of basic
teleport. Ie. Blind Teleporting is dangerous, cost end, movement, etc....
I'm just thinking to myself, I read a lot of comics. Sure some heroes
teleport instantly and some take a lot of time to get that teleport going,
but there are also the heroes that have teleported and no one sees them for
a second (phase) or two. It isn't instaneous. It may not have any real
value, but it does have enough to merit needing a system for it. Once
again, this is a character concept and one I'm really liking for some insane
reason. Oh well, here's to hoping. Thanks in advance and talk at you later.
Sparx
==================================================================
3000+ E-mail? I don't keep up with the list and blame it entirely on
alternate dimesions.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 00:26:00 -0500 (CDT)
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To: champ-l@omg.org
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: By the way, I need a character name...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Along with my fun Delayed Teleport question, I have another. This one is a
lot simpler though. Anyone have a good name for a mentalist / brick? Not
incredible in either, above average strength and a few mental powers. Heck,
might even get delayed teleport :) Thanks in advance. Take it easy and
talk at you later.
Sparx
==================================================================
3000+ E-mail? I don't keep up with the list and blame it entirely on
alternate dimesions.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
To: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 01:48:31 -0400
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: By the way, I need a character name...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Sun, 31 May 1998 00:26:00 -0500 (CDT), Sparx wrote:
>Along with my fun Delayed Teleport question, I have another. This one is a
>lot simpler though. Anyone have a good name for a mentalist / brick? Not
>incredible in either, above average strength and a few mental powers. Heck,
>might even get delayed teleport :) Thanks in advance. Take it easy and
>talk at you later.
What was the source of the character's power? (Or some other pieces of background
data to be a hook for a name).
=====================================================
John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org>
=====================================================
Keeper of the Champions Mailing List. Got a question about the
list? Just ask. Or, scope out www.sysabend.org/champions.
============ New feature: Cardboard Heroes. ============
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From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
To: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 02:14:44 -0400
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Delayed Teleport...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Sun, 31 May 1998 00:24:00 -0500 (CDT), Sparx wrote:
>In response to the Extra-Dimensional Movement on my Delayed Teleport. That
>won't work because.
>
>A. I want to move forward.
>B. I don't want to move to another dimension or at least not one that I can
>stay in longer than a few phases.
>C. I want it to have all the limitations and pretty much functions of basic
>teleport. Ie. Blind Teleporting is dangerous, cost end, movement, etc....
>
>I'm just thinking to myself, I read a lot of comics. Sure some heroes
>teleport instantly and some take a lot of time to get that teleport going,
>but there are also the heroes that have teleported and no one sees them for
>a second (phase) or two. It isn't instaneous. It may not have any real
>value, but it does have enough to merit needing a system for it. Once
>again, this is a character concept and one I'm really liking for some insane
>reason. Oh well, here's to hoping. Thanks in advance and talk at you later.
As per a normal T-port, determine the distance and direction you with to move.
Teleport into a private dimension (we'll call it "T-space" in honor of Larry Niven's
"N-space") with extra dimensional movement, then use teleport to actually move the
distance and direction you want to go, then extra dimensional move back. Each t-port
now takes 3 phases, and during the "middle" phase you are not accessible at all.
Build the whole construct with the two power linked together (and regardless of which
power the linked lim is applied to, play as if both powers MUST be used together). If
you want to be able to force the t-port to take longer than 3 phases, don't use the linked
limitation.
Several folks have suggested some type of limited ex-dim movement and your (B)
comment leads me to think that you're getting a bit hung up on semantics. Don't
confuse the power "name" with the power "effect". Think about a plain teleport.
Teleporting your full distance takes a phase. Where are you during that phase?
You're "someplace special". Well, getting "someplace special" in the Hero System is
done with extra dimensional movement, regardless of whether is an alternate Earth, the
9 planes of Hell, or Hyperspace (or T-space); you've somehow, by whatever special
effect is involved, stepped away from this reality.
Anything else I can think of to get the type of effect you've described would be a real
power kludge. T-Port + Ex-Dim Move is reasonably clean.
=====================================================
John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org>
=====================================================
Keeper of the Champions Mailing List. Got a question about the
list? Just ask. Or, scope out www.sysabend.org/champions.
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Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 03:23:40 -0300
From: "Rafael Sant'Anna Meyer" <eavatar@rj.sol.com.br>
Reply-To: eavatar@rj.sol.com.br
To: Sparx <psansone@i1.net>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: By the way, I need a character name...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Sparx wrote:
> Along with my fun Delayed Teleport question, I have another. This one is a
> lot simpler though. Anyone have a good name for a mentalist / brick? Not
> incredible in either, above average strength and a few mental powers. Heck,
> might even get delayed teleport :) Thanks in advance. Take it easy and
> talk at you later.
>
> Sparx
>
How about Willforce?
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Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 08:03:23 -0500
To: psansone@i1.net (Sparx), champ-l@omg.org
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Delayed Teleport...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 05:46 PM 5/30/98 -0500, Sparx wrote:
> Ok, I know it has been a while since anyone has heard from me. I'm
>just behind the times on e-mail. Then again, ain't I always saying this
>when I do send out some e-mail? Oh well, here is my question for the month
>concerning Champions. Want to build a character who steps into a teleport
>disk and steps back out a couple of phases later. This is his own super
>power. But basically a delayed teleport, also making him relatively safe
>for the amount of time he is in his teleport dimension. Any clue how this
>would be built? Usually my questions are easy and I'm just not thinking
>when I'm asking, but we'll see. Thanks and talk at you later.
This question (and the various responses to it, involving XDM,
Invisibility, linked powers and other combinations) is one of those that
makes me think I must be missing something. The solution *seems* obvious,
but evidently there's something wrong with this:
Teleport, Time Delay +1/4
For the sake of argument, let's take the position that the important
component of a power is it's end result; in the case of Teleport, the end
result is "arrive somewhere else", and "disappear from starting point" is
merely a preparatory step towards that end result.
Okay, that being the case, you apply the Time Delay to the end result of
the Teleport, not the preparatory step. You disappear whenever you like,
"setting" the Power (see the description of Time Delay) and determining
your re-entry location in space-time at that point.
If re-entry time isn't under the character's control, but is a function of
distance Teleported, that might be worth a -1/4 Limitation, cancelling out
the cost increase of the Time Delay.
Damon
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|****************** Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs *******************|
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
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Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 06:28:02 -0700
To: champ-l@omg.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: By the way, I need a character name...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 12:26 AM 5/31/1998 -0500, Sparx wrote:
>Along with my fun Delayed Teleport question, I have another. This one is a
>lot simpler though. Anyone have a good name for a mentalist / brick? Not
>incredible in either, above average strength and a few mental powers. Heck,
>might even get delayed teleport :) Thanks in advance. Take it easy and
>talk at you later.
It would depend somewhat on his origin and ethnic background. The name
that came right to mind was Spirit Wind.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 06:31:51 -0700
To: champ-l@omg.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Delayed Teleport...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 05:46 PM 5/30/1998 -0500, Sparx wrote:
> Ok, I know it has been a while since anyone has heard from me. I'm
>just behind the times on e-mail. Then again, ain't I always saying this
>when I do send out some e-mail? Oh well, here is my question for the month
>concerning Champions. Want to build a character who steps into a teleport
>disk and steps back out a couple of phases later. This is his own super
>power. But basically a delayed teleport, also making him relatively safe
>for the amount of time he is in his teleport dimension. Any clue how this
>would be built? Usually my questions are easy and I'm just not thinking
>when I'm asking, but we'll see. Thanks and talk at you later.
Does he teleport to a different location, or the same one? If a
different location, I'd make this Teleport with Extra Time; if the same,
severely limited XDM (to "two phases in the future").
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 06:37:18 -0700
To: champ-l@omg.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Delayed Teleport...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 12:11 AM 5/31/1998 -0500, Sparx wrote:
>> Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me he could save a
bunch
>>of points just by stepping into a closet and popping back out after a couple
>>of phases...
>>
>> Does he actually go anywhere?
>>
>>Dale A. Ward
>
>Ah, yes, let me make myself a tad more clear here. I noticed I left that
>part out, but I did use the word teleport meaning movement power as in
>Champions terms. Yes, I wish to have a character for simple math right now
>that can Teleport let's say 10" and it would take him a phase to step into
>the dimension and not come out until his next phase. Or for more fun, not
>come out until he wants to. Or yet even more fun, length of time depends
>on distance of teleport. Now, let's take friends along :) Ok, I have now
>thought of one way to do this, but there has got to be a cheaper way.
If the amount of time he's "gone" is fixed, I'd just call this a
declared effect, using Extra Time on Teleport. Sure, he can't be touched,
but he can't interact with the world either; he can't even tell what's
happening.
Being able to not come back until he wants to is a different ball of
wax. This would almost definitely be XDM into his "teleport dimension,"
probably with Transdimensional Clairvoyance (at No Range) to see into the
"real world" so he can tell when he wants to return.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
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From: "Wolf, Dave" <dave.wolf@intel.com>
To: "\"badtodd@dacmail.net\" " <badtodd@dacmail.net&>
"\"champ-l@sysabend.org\" " <champ-l@sysabend.org&>
"\"Guy Hoyle\" "
<ghoyle1@airmail.net>
Subject: RE: A Golden Age Campaign with a Twist
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 06:55:00 -0700
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>On 5/29/98, at 12:28 PM, Todd Hanson wrote:
>>Hmm... if you want to throw a bit of moral dilemma at the PCs... Let
>>them discover that the 'formula' requires innocent(s) to die. Either
>>some kind of 'life force' thing, or maybe it requires some small part
>>of the brain that the host can't live without. Hitler's 'death camps'
>>were actually a cover. All of the people that were killed were used to
>>create Mastermind's supers.
>While this is an excellent idea, I think it might make for a somewhat
grimmer
>tone than I'd like to use in a "Golden Age" campaign; perhaps it's enough
of a
>moral dilemma that they must use Mastermind's own research to gain
>super-powers, knowing that Mastermind sacrificed innocent lives to create
the
>Zarathustra formula. It might be too much to ask for them to sacrifice
lives,
>as well. (You also have ironies such as the PCs using Mastermind's own
formula
>against him, and thus saving the innocent lives he sacrificed in the first
>place).
But what if the heroe's have found a way to synthesize the drug instead of
having to get it from people, maybe it isn't as strong or only lasts for a
limited time.
My .02$
Dave
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing
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Date: 31 May 1998 10:10:57 -0400
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GAZZA writes:
> "In HEROIC (emphasis mine) campaigns, fast moving characters may leap
> further..."
Yep, it does say "heroic".
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 31 May 1998 10:16:15 -0400
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GAZZA writes:
> EG, there is more than one way to simulate the special effect of
> being able to climb really fast in bad conditions, you mean?
Yeah... my first choice would be to use a small ammount of limited Flight.
Clinging introduces the problem that the character is *NOT* sticking to the
surface with his full Strength -- this being the primary purpose of
Clinging ("With this Standard Power a character may cling to walls and
sheer surfaces, and move on them as if they were level.") you cannot limit
it away.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Normals with Powers (change the subject once in a while, dammit!)
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Bob Greenwade writes:
> Hm... am I, then, not the only person on the list who can hear the white
> of a CRT, thus being able to tell by hearing when a TV is on even when the
> volume is completely off? :-]
No, you are not.
Like I said, unusual, but not abnormal.
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Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 07:20:11 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 03:08 PM 5/30/1998 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>At 08:12 AM 5/30/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>> For instance, a player with TUMA could tell his GM, "I want my mech to
>>have a Shoulder Cannon II," the GM could look that up in his copy of TUMA,
>>okay it, and the player would only have to write in "Shoulder Cannon II" on
>>his mech's sheet for 19 points (58 active). Or, if the GM prefers, he
>>could write it out to, "4d6 RKA, -1 OCV, +2 Range Mod, 8 charges, Vehicular
>>OIF, 60 degree arc of fire." If he's using HeroMaker (or, in the hopefully
>>near future, Creation Workshop with Hero Creator) and bought the on-disk
>>version of TUMA, he could just pull the Shoulder Cannon II from the file of
>>"Slug Throwers - Mounted."
>
>There are shoulder cannons in TUMA? I have Ninja Hero and thought TUMA was
>just an update. But, be that as it may...
Whoops -- my boo-boo. There are shoulder cannons in TUSV. (That's what
happens when someone on a poorly-arranged sleep schedule is using multiple
abbreviations which are 50% identical!)
(And for the first time in three weeks, someone makes a sarcastic remark
without identifying it as such, and the person to whom it's directed
actually *recognizes* the sarcasm despite said sleep schedule! Will
wonders never cease?) (Hint hint.)
(Sorry about all the parenthetical remarks.)
>Claws will not have -1 OCV or charges, etc. This is why I'm having a
>problem with it. Claws depend on the size of the creature using them.
>There is not a lot of variation in claws. How does a list of mouse to
>dragon claws really help? I don't see it. What value does this have?
>
>House cat 1 pip HKA, Red. Pen.(1/2D6 max with strength) 5/4
>Dog/Coyote 1/2D6 HKA, Red. Pen. (1D6+1 max with strength) 10/8
>Tiger 1D6 HKA, Red. Pen. (2D6 max with strength) 15/12
>Gargoyle 1D6 HKA (2d6 max with strength) 15
>Bear 1 1/2D6 HKA, Red. Pen. (3D6 max with strength) 25/20
>Dragon 2 1/2D6 HKA, Red. Pen. (5D6 max with strength) 50/40
>Godzilla 2D6 HKA, AoE Line (4D6 max with strength) 60
That table would be a good start. Some of these will be 1/2 END (the
feline ones) while other will be 0 END. The Dragon's claws might have
Armor Piercing; a bearcat's (one you didn't include) would probably be
Penetrating.
(I may be confusing the bearcat for a different creature -- one whose
claws are tough enough to rip through just about anything. I've seen one
of these close up, at the West Coast Game Park Safari just outside Bandon,
Oregon, and I seem to remember it being the bearcat, so that's what I'm
going to call it for the rest of this post, and the rest of this discussion
until someone corrects me.)
Even just given your table above, that can create a good standard.
"Tigora has the claws of a tiger." "Fine, that's 1d6 HKA, Reduced
Penetration. 12 points." It makes character construction much faster and
creates a standard that can stretch across campaigns, like the weapons charts.
>> On the other hand, the player could also say, "I want my mech to have a
>>weapon like the Shoulder Cannon II, but Armor Piercing," then he still
>>could; the weapon would just do 2-1/2d6 RKA AP instead of a straight 4d6
RKA.
>
>Okay, but nothing about this list tells you to reduce the 4D6 to 2.5D6.
>You have to know the system just as well to make that should cannon as to
>make one from scratch, IMHO.
Of course not. If the player doesn't want to mess with the finer points
of the construction system, then he can just take the Shoulder Cannon II
as-is. If he does, then he can use the weapons on the list as models for
starting points. Or he can just build from scratch, like most of us have
already been doing.
That's the main thing that construct lists are for -- simplifying
character construction for those who need it. Creating the above-mentioned
standard is a secondary reason; it would probably be enough of a reason by
itself, but (IMO) making the character creation process easier for newbies
is a more significant and compelling reason.
>> Similarly, the lists of swords in FH, NH, TUMA, and other books help
>>give a standardized idea of what a given sword should be able to do.
>
>Now this is a good reason for a paragraph not a list. I think the list
>would be boring since natural weaponry will not have as much variation as
>the sword lists.
You gave a couple of nice variations in your above list (Reduced
Penetration for most, straight for Gargoyle, AoE: Line for Godzilla). As I
pointed out with the bearcat and the suggestion for feline claws, there's
even more variation that can be had.
The main point is to show newbie players how it's done and what the
effects are of doing things a certain way. A novice GM should be able to
grab the Bestiary and decide, "OK, this creature has the jaws and claws of
a bearcat and an armadillo's hide, but it's the size of a tiger and
excretes a muscle-relaxing poison," and be able to enter it on the
creature's character sheet, knowing exactly what construct he's using for
each of these without having to work out anything but the poison for
himself. And having well-indexed tables showing and explaining how each of
these things are done (well, probably except for the size; that's pretty
straightforward) is a bit easier than trying to look up each creature,
seeing the listing there, at times having to reverse-engineer the creation,
and *then* getting it down.
>> I agree with the other guys that a similar standard should be set for
>>claws. A new edition of the Hero Bestiary (and I hope there is one under
>>the 5th edition) should show how claws are built as a standard practice,
>>and give a table of claws ranging from a housecat's to a dragon's. If it's
>>reasonably common for claws to have a certain unusual ability (though none
>>spring to mind right offhand), then a separate section of the table should
>>list that. The whole table would probably be no bigger than the list of
>>swords in TUMA. A creature whose claws have some unusual property would
>>simply have its claws detailed out.
>
>Okay. Stephen was talking pages and that was what I was having trouble
>with. The whole table should be less than half a page with maybe two
>paragraphs of text. Poison would be its own section.
It depends, of course, on how many variations on claws you have.
Retractable claws would be slightly different from those that are out all
the time (I was using 1/2 END vs 0 END above). Particularly tough claws
(like those of a bearcat) would have some Advantage like AP or Penetrating.
Dave listed a slew of other variations, and while I think he may have gone
a bit overboard on the range possibilities (I agree with you that poison
would be its own section), I think he has the right general idea.
The idea (IMO) is to enable newbie players to tell the GM, "Based on my
concept as being yada-yada, I want Construct X from The Ultimate Whatever,"
and since the GM has a standard to go by and can always throw Construct X
back at the character with another yada-yada on a moment's notice (thanks
to TUW), the whole thing runs a lot more smoothly. Secondarily, should the
player want to take that character to a convention, he can just tell the
GM, "I have a yada-yada with Construct X from TUW, is that OK?" rather than
having to list the whole Power with Advantages and Limitations and show his
math.
---
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Lighter Characters (was Poll: Champions Dialogue #2.)
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 31 May 1998 10:21:16 -0400
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Robert A West writes:
> One way I have seen this done is Flight, Only to offset mass(-1). The
> amount of flight to use is 1" per point of STR required to lift the
> amount of the density decrease.
Interesting... since a character with 10" of Flight and a 60 Strength can
carry a 100 ton object and fly at his full 10".
I still think that, for the most part, being lighter is a disadvantage.
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Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 09:26:17 -0500
To: hero-l@sysabend.org
From: "Joe Claffey Jr." <jrc@mail1.nai.net>
Subject: Re: Delayed Teleport...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
psansone@i1.net (Sparx) writes,
>In response to the Extra-Dimensional Movement on my Delayed Teleport. That
>won't work because.
>
>A. I want to move forward.
>B. I don't want to move to another dimension or at least not one that I can
>stay in longer than a few phases.
>C. I want it to have all the limitations and pretty much functions of basic
>teleport. Ie. Blind Teleporting is dangerous, cost end, movement, etc....
It's starting to sound like an arbitrarily limited Teleport. -1/4 if it
just takes a phase, -1/2 if it's based on distance or takes a full turn,
and higher lims if it takes longer than a turn.
What can the character do while he is teleporting? If he's held in stasis
while teleporting (no recoveries, can't start powers with Extra Time, etc),
you probably want a slightly larger limitation. If he can perform actions
(even only on himself), use a smaller one.
Joe Claffey | "In the end, everything is a gag."
jrc@ct1.nai.net | - Charlie Chaplin
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Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 07:26:33 -0700
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 03:53 PM 5/30/1998 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>The weapon charts have 6 columns (without a cost column), claws would have
>3 (name, DCs, cost: see my other post).
At least 4 columns: 1 more for Notes, which would include modifiers such
as Reduced Penetration (your Gargoyle didn't have it, nor did Godzilla),
END level, Armor Piercing, Penetrating, AoE, etc.
>>I'm looking for a "Beast Builder", either as a separate book or as a
>>beginning to the Bestiary. Or maybe not either. Once the "Beast Builder"
>>is written, it might apply to a lot more than beasts, in which case, some
>>of the components should move up to a more general book. What is left
>>might only be a few pages in the Bestiary.
>
>I think an Ultimate Monster book ;-) would be very short on how and very
>long on examples of complete creatures. Of course, that would be a more
>late-90s name for the Beastiary.
Don't be so sure. When I first mentioned TUSV to Steve Long, his
reaction was that he thought it would be a fairly thin book. Of course,
this was before he saw my manuscript for a book that promises to rival TUSM
for sheer size.
---
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Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 07:52:19 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll: Line of Sight
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 12:14 PM 5/30/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote:
>> Ah, and there's the difference! You're using a map, and calculating
>> angles, not using *solely* the video system! If one could use the video
>> system as a targeting sense (in the Hero System sense of the term), then
>> the map and calculations would not be necessary; you could just aim and
>> fire. With the map and calculations, you could still make a fairly
>> accurate shot, but you're still essentially firing blind (again, in terms
>> of Hero mechanics).
>
>I don't have lightning calculator or the trig tables memorized so I need
them for
>the exact tragectory for the balistic shell. The map is needed for
calculating
>the distance. Since Mental Powers are uneffected by either tragectory or
>distance niether of these would be needed for use with mental powers.
Now, given
>that there are no other influences on the bullet after being fired (muzzle
>imperfections, winds, obstiles etc.) then the bullet would hit the target.
Once
>again these types of influences don't effect mental powers, so what is
>prohibiting egoists from useing their powers?
There *is* a trajectory of sorts for Mental Powers; that trajectory just
happens to be a straight line.
Knowing the numbers is irrelevant. When using just plain, unmodified
normal sight to target, the mentalist does not know either the absolute or
relative coordinates of the target in numerical terms any more than any
other character would. He just knows, "there he is," and sends out his
attack in that direction.
Now, as you say, the mental attacks are not affected by things like
muzzle imperfections, winds, obsctacles, gravity, and such. But they *are*
affected by what direction you point them. If you direct a mental attack
toward the wrong location, you miss.
Seeing an image on a TV screen does not tell you where the subject of
that image is in relation to yourself. It *can* give you enough
information to enable you to figure it out, but in itself it doesn't give
you that datum. If you do figure it out, you're really shooting blindly,
and (in game terms) would attack at 0 OCV (the same penalty as targeting an
Invisible character who isn't actually seen but whose location is known,
which is essentially what's happening).
Try working out this idea as an example. (For the sake of the example,
I'll assume you live in a house in a middle-class residential neighborhood;
you can adjust the scenery as necessary.) Suppose you're in your living
room with the front curtains closed and the TV on, and a sniper rifle in
your hand, and you know perfectly well how to use that sniper rifle. On
your front lawn, you have a marksman's target and a friend with a
camcorder; the camcorder is hooked up so you can see the target on your TV.
Do you really think you could shoot that rifle with the same accuracy as
you could with the curtains open?
*That* is the difference being discussed here.
---
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Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 07:58:32 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll: Line of Sight
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 12:31 PM 5/30/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote:
>> >> It's not a physical difference that makes the difference. It's a
>> >> logistical difference. In the case of binoculars or a mirror, the
photons
>> >> are coming from the target. In the case of a television screen, the
>> >> photons are coming from a television screen.
>> >
>> >So the source of the light makes the difference? Do neon lights,
incandescent,
>> >electrical impedence and nuclear light have differing effects on Mental
Powers.
>> >Since incandescent and neon are softer then the light pruduced by a
television do
>> >they have adverse effects on the targetting capacity of the light they
produce for
>> >egoists?
>>
>> No. Neon lights, incadescent lights, electrical impedence lights, and
>> nuclear light sources do not have minds (at least, as a rule; we are
>> talking about a superhero world, after all), and so cannot be targeted by
>> Mental Powers. I don't know why anyone would even propose trying such a
>> thing.
>> However, any living being from which those lights reflect do have minds,
>> and can be targeted.
>
>I'm not talking about targetting them. I'm talking about the type of
light they
>produce and how it effects the targetting of mental powers. The previous
post
>made distinctions about the source of the light and since the light from the
>target is only being relected from another light source, I was showing
that this
>type of distinction is baseless since it would exclude other light sources
besides
>the television.
The television isn't the source of the light against by which the
intended target is being seen, though. The intended target isn't
reflecting the light of the TV screen (if that were the case, there'd be no
problem.) The screen is *becoming* the target. It's *creating* the image
of the intended target, and that image is therefore not coming directly
from the intended target.
>> But how does he aim the missile? Aren't the monitor and aiming system
>> linked together somehow? Or does he just see the image on the monitor and
>> somehow "know" where that is relative to his weapon, punch in those
>> relative coordinates, and fire?
>
>Depends on the fire control system. Some let the gunner select with a dot
on the
>screen, some use circles or boxes others use crosshairs. The pilot places
the
>targetting mechanism on the chosen target, the system then gathers
information to
>obtain lock on (exact postion, distance, and guidence profiles for use by the
>missles sensors). Once the system has locked on, id has obtained sufficient
>information to calculate a guidence tragectory and correct for movement of
the
>target, the pilot is imformed and then s/he decides when to fire the weapon.
That targeting mechanism -- dot, circle, box, crosshair, whatever -- is
the means by which the gunner targets (in Hero terms). He's not using his
own vision to target. To be sure, he's using his own vision to interpret
what the CRT is showing him and decide what should be selected as a target,
but (in Hero terms) he's using the fire control system to do the actual
targeting.
A mentalist trying to target his mental powers via TV does not, as a
rule, have the benefit of such a system.
---
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Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 08:03:15 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll: Line of Sight
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 01:24 PM 5/30/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote:
>Agreed. I've never said there wouldn't be negitives or training involved
in using Mantal Powers through a video feed. What I've been saying is that
there is nothing to inherently prohibit a mentalist from using a CRT to
assist them in locating a target.
Actually, what you said above that you've never said is precisely what
you said that started this whole conversation -- that using TV would
provide "Line of Sight" for Mental Powers. And the rest of us have been
trying to explain that TV can give information about location, but not the
sort of "Line of Sight" that is needed to target Mental Powers.
---
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Weapon Hands Questions
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 10:20:09 -0500
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
(This may have been answered long ago, but I cannot find it anywhere.)
Does it bother anyone else that the 1.5 Handed -1/4 limitation does not
appear to limit in any way? For an extra -1/4 limit, the owner can wield
the weapon with one hand at the stated STR min, damage, OCV, etc--just as
if no limitation was taken. By using 2 hands, the wielder can lower the
STR min by 2.
I wonder if it shouldn't be this way: 1.5 Handed as normal, except the
weapon can be used at the stated values with 2 hands. The owner can wield
the weapon with 1 hand at STR min + 2.
That would suggest that a wielder of a 2 handed weapon could use it in 1
hand at STR min + 5. (Double the required STR sounds about right to me for
1 handed use.)
Of course, then you also have the questions about weapon length, balance,
and the height of the wielder. Somehow I cannot see a 23 STR human using a
halberd 1 handed, but a 15 STR human wielding a medium spear 1 handed does
not sound unreasonable--wouldn't he just hold the haft in a different
place?
If all the above is correct, how many levels of Growth or Shrinking does a
character need to gain or lose the ability to use certain weapons--for each
of the "hands"? That is, a 3 foot gnome might need 2 hands to use a small
spear, but could not use a broadsword regardless of STR.
Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 08:26:41 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll: Line of Sight
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 06:04 PM 5/30/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote:
>> 1. You didn't buy Clairvoyance for the television system. It already
>> exists, and has certain features that limit it, such as your inability to
>> precisely locate the camera in relation to you. If you were to buy
>> Clairvoyance (SFX Closed circuit camera), you might choose to take
>> such limitations, or choose to spend the points needed to bypass the
>> limitations. Either way, as you didn't buy the television network as a
>> Power, you must buy a full Power to use it in a fashion thatbypasses
>> its limitations.
>>
>
>I've already said that a TV , IMO, is not clairvoyence. It's telescopic
vision, with
>usuable by others, independant, OAF, Large, must have reciever (the TV)
and a large area
>of effect. So why can mental powers be helped by telescopic vision
through binoculars
>and not through a CRT?
About your construct for a TV, I'm going to say something that I say
rather rarely -- and, in fact, this is the first time I'm aware of having
ever said it on this List:
Your way of constructing it is wrong. Absolutely, totally wrong.
Telescopic Vision reduces Range Penalties for the distance between the
viewer and the target. This is not the effect of a TV system *at all.*
For one thing, if it was Telescopic Vision, then any obstacles in the way
would block the vision; for another, everything on your screen would appear
with equal clarity regardless of distance; and for another, you'd only be
able to see things as they would look from the perspective of where you
sit. Considering that you can I can see a TV broadcast of the Gateway Arch
and see the exact same thing, including neither of us being able to see
whatever birds may be perched on them as though they were 8 meters away,
this is clearly the wrong way to model this.
A TV system changes the point of perspective between the viewer and the
target, bypassing all obstacles in between. This is *precisely* the effect
of Clairvoyance, according to the book. The screen will show the same
thing whether it's 6 feet from the camera, or 6 time zones; the distance
between the two points is irrelevant, while from the point of the camera
all normal Range Mods apply. (A camera could, of course, have Telescopic
Vision through a zoom lens, but that is a totally different matter.)
The most accurate model of a TV system (IMO) would be: Clairvoyance, to
get the image from the camera to the transmitter; TV Transmitting (a
modified version of Radio Hearing to [1] cover TV rather than traditional
AM/FM/Police bands and [2] transmit instead of receive) to send the signal
out; TV Receiving to get the signal on the set; and Images to translate and
show what the camera sees. (All this with various Limitations, starting
with but not limited to Focus.) This almost precisely models what a TV
system does. It may seem a bit convoluted at first glance, but that's
really how it works -- and that's why you can't use Mental Powers for LOS
through it.
Now, despite the fact that's it's not strictly By The Book, I would
allow Clairvoyance to be bought with Targeting. This is what the
cross-hairs on your missile targeting systems would provide. Using a
crystal ball to target long-distance magic spells is another Special Effect
for this. But in either case, the targeting would have to be built into
the Clairvoyance as a special case, not as the default way of doing it.
---
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Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 10:52:08 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
To: Sparx <psansone@i1.net>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Delayed Teleport...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Sparx wrote:
> In response to the Extra-Dimensional Movement on my Delayed Teleport. That
> won't work because.
>
> A. I want to move forward.
> B. I don't want to move to another dimension or at least not one that I can
> stay in longer than a few phases.
> C. I want it to have all the limitations and pretty much functions of basic
> teleport. Ie. Blind Teleporting is dangerous, cost end, movement, etc....
>
> I'm just thinking to myself, I read a lot of comics. Sure some heroes
> teleport instantly and some take a lot of time to get that teleport going,
> but there are also the heroes that have teleported and no one sees them for
> a second (phase) or two. It isn't instaneous. It may not have any real
> value, but it does have enough to merit needing a system for it. Once
> again, this is a character concept and one I'm really liking for some insane
> reason. Oh well, here's to hoping. Thanks in advance and talk at you later.
>
I think what you really want is Extra-Dimensional Movement. EDM with Any
locations and Though time. The locations are all the hexes within a certain
distance of the starting point to simulate the teleporting distance. The through
time it so simulate the time the characters spends in the outher universe. If
you want to take other people its 5 points per power of two (on a scientific
calculator, where N is the number of people you want to be able to take with you,
the keying sequence is[5][x][N][ln][/][2][ln][=]) people. That is the character
is assumed to be one of the people in the group.
For example: to move a total of 6 people up to one turn into the future and up to
25" from the starting point would be 73 points. The limitations would be OAF,
Backpack Size (the disk), Only into the future (1/2), up to 12 seconds (+1), up
to 25" away (1/4) for a total cost of 18 points.
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Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 10:52:49 -0500 (CDT)
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To: champ-l@omg.org
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Delayed Teleport...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>As per a normal T-port, determine the distance and direction you with to
move.
>Teleport into a private dimension (we'll call it "T-space" in honor of
Larry Niven's
>"N-space") with extra dimensional movement, then use teleport to actually
move the
>distance and direction you want to go, then extra dimensional move back.
Each t-port
>now takes 3 phases, and during the "middle" phase you are not accessible at
all.
>Build the whole construct with the two power linked together (and
regardless of which
>power the linked lim is applied to, play as if both powers MUST be used
together). If
>you want to be able to force the t-port to take longer than 3 phases, don't
use the linked
>limitation.
>
>Several folks have suggested some type of limited ex-dim movement and your (B)
>comment leads me to think that you're getting a bit hung up on semantics.
Don't
>confuse the power "name" with the power "effect". Think about a plain
teleport.
Well, I wasn't trying to get hung up on semantics of EDM. I just didn't
want it to seem like I was trying to get free points or fudge the system in
my favor. Some GMs say the point you enter EDM is the same point you come
out and so on and so one, and not all will allow EDM movement effect
original world movement. So that is where I was getting hung up on Extra
Dimensional Movement. I do like your idea though and for the most part it
will work. Just have to make sure whatever GM I'm playing under will ok it.
Thanks, take it easy and talk at you later.
Sparx
==================================================================
3000+ E-mail? I don't keep up with the list and blame it entirely on
alternate dimesions.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 10:55:55 -0500 (CDT)
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To: champ-l@omg.org
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Delayed Teleport...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>Teleport, Time Delay +1/4
>
>For the sake of argument, let's take the position that the important
>component of a power is it's end result; in the case of Teleport, the end
>result is "arrive somewhere else", and "disappear from starting point" is
>merely a preparatory step towards that end result.
Yeah, I was thinking that too, but it seemed to easy. Then I thought of the
obvious thing every one would tell me, "No, Time Delay is the amount of time
it takes for the power to go off, not the inbetween time of the power." I
like this the best because it is simple, but how many people would say it is
ok? Personally, if I were the GM for the character I'd ok it, because
though the character may not be in a safe zone, everyone else is also safe
from him. Well, thanks, take it easy and talk at you later.
Sparx
==================================================================
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Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 11:10:09 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
To: Firelynx16@aol.com
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll: Line of Sight
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Firelynx16@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 98-05-30 12:15:21 EDT, you write:
>
> > So your "String" is the particulate part of the wave particle duality of
> > light,
> > correct?
>
> No, the 'string' is simply a way of visualizing the LoS that the attacker has.
> I was trying to use it to show that in order to establish LoS, the attacker
> has to have a *direct* pathway along his/her targeting sense to the target.
I have no problem visualizing your string. What I have a problem with is how it
gets broken by the various translations the light goes through when it travels
from the camera to the CRT.
> >
> > In Hero Games' systems everything comes down to FX (as so many commonly
> > quote). I
> > have said before the FX of a TV camera IMHO is that of Telecsopic vision,
> > not
> > Cairasentience. Your above reasoning for stopping at the telescopic vision
> > at the
> > CRT seems to be that there are various tranlations involved in the
> > transmittling
> > the picture from its source to the egoist destination. That since the
> > egoist
> > can't precieve each and every format the signal is in and use each of these
> > additional sences as a targetting sence then LOS has been broken. In other
> > words
> > as soon as the signal gets translated into a fomart the egoist is unable to
> > precieve LOS is broken. Correct?
> >
> > If so, then this is the point of contention. I am of the opinion that the
> > intemediary format do not matter, so long as the egoist can understand the
> > format
> > (and its a targetting sence) they are using, then they would be able to
> use
> > their
> > powers. The various translations that the signal goes through passing from
> > your
> > eye to your mind is clear proof of this. The fact that the photons get
> > translated
> > back and forth between chemical and electrical signals before being
> > reconstructed
> > in the brain then passed to the mind in some currently unknown format is
> > proof of
> > this. Since the mind does not how to precieve photons or electricity yet
> it
> > tranlates them into something it can precieve, chemicals and the unknow
> > format.
> > So the intermediary step IMO do no matter only the final format.
>
> I think I've gotten too complicated in this. Let's simplify. In order to
> establish LoS, the attacker must be able to *detect* his/her target with a
> targeting sense. A mentalist looking at a tv *cannot* do this with his/her
> sight alone because they *cannot* see (detect) the target. They are only able
> to see (detect) a *reproduction* of that target on the tv screen. Therefore,
> LoS cannot be established. Period.
Here is where we disagree. If enough contextual information is given on the
screen then the location of the target may be deterimined. IMO this gives the
egoist the possiblity of using their powers
> It doesn't matter if the image is a live
> feed, or a taped broadcast, the television monitor is *only* capable of
> showing an electronic reproduction. Targeting senses work the same for a
> mentalist as they do for an energy blaster or a sniper, in that you have to be
> able to detect your target with your sense in order to hit them. A sniper
> aiming their rifle at an image of a person on a tv screen would, in no stretch
> of the imagination, hit that person in real life. (unless they were hiding
> behind the tv, maybe) They'd just put a nasty hole in the tv. Same goes for
> mentalists.
The targetting sence for mentalist, IMO, is knowing the location of the mind of
the target. Line of Sight and Mind Scan are two ways of knowing this. It comes
down to interpreting a part of the rules that are not spelled out. Are line of
sight and mind scan two parts of the same thing or are they two seperate things.
>
>
> Now, once again, what I'm describing is just basic mentalist LoS. Adding Mind
> Scan, or other Powers/Advantages *can* create a situation where a mentalist
> looks at a tv and is able to attack the person whose image is on the screen,
> but not without those extra add-ons.
>
> 'Lynx
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Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 09:12:31 -0700
To: champ-l@omg.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Delayed Teleport...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 08:03 AM 5/31/1998 -0500, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
>This question (and the various responses to it, involving XDM,
>Invisibility, linked powers and other combinations) is one of those that
>makes me think I must be missing something. The solution *seems* obvious,
>but evidently there's something wrong with this:
>
>Teleport, Time Delay +1/4
I hadn't even thought of Time Delay. I think this is the way to do it.
:-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 09:15:30 -0700
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net&>
Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Lighter Characters (was Poll: Champions Dialogue #2.)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 10:21 AM 5/31/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>Robert A West writes:
>
>> One way I have seen this done is Flight, Only to offset mass(-1). The
>> amount of flight to use is 1" per point of STR required to lift the
>> amount of the density decrease.
>
>Interesting... since a character with 10" of Flight and a 60 Strength can
>carry a 100 ton object and fly at his full 10".
I'm not sure what this has to do with Robert's post.
>I still think that, for the most part, being lighter is a disadvantage.
Oh yeah? Just tell that to Oprah! ;-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 11:27:26 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll: Line of Sight
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Bob Greenwade wrote:
> <snip>
> Now, as you say, the mental attacks are not affected by things like
> muzzle imperfections, winds, obsctacles, gravity, and such. But they *are*
> affected by what direction you point them. If you direct a mental attack
> toward the wrong location, you miss.
agreed.
> Seeing an image on a TV screen does not tell you where the subject of
> that image is in relation to yourself. It *can* give you enough
> information to enable you to figure it out, but in itself it doesn't give
> you that datum. If you do figure it out, you're really shooting blindly,
> and (in game terms) would attack at 0 OCV (the same penalty as targeting an
> Invisible character who isn't actually seen but whose location is known,
> which is essentially what's happening).
good point
> Try working out this idea as an example. (For the sake of the example,
> I'll assume you live in a house in a middle-class residential neighborhood;
> you can adjust the scenery as necessary.) Suppose you're in your living
> room with the front curtains closed and the TV on, and a sniper rifle in
> your hand, and you know perfectly well how to use that sniper rifle. On
> your front lawn, you have a marksman's target and a friend with a
> camcorder; the camcorder is hooked up so you can see the target on your TV.
> Do you really think you could shoot that rifle with the same accuracy as
> you could with the curtains open?
No, but I could take the shot.
> *That* is the difference being discussed here.
No, what has been said here is that it is not possible to take the shot. What I
have said is it is possible to take the shot and the chances of success depend
on the situation, ie the context of what is being viewed. Too extand your
example, if the marksmans target is in a direct path from the front door with
the right side of the target in line with the doornob then the odds of hitting
are greater then if no frame of reference is known. As I have said before the
proof is in the details. I've maintained that the possiblity exists that you
can use the powers but the probability of success depends on the situation.
> ---
> Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
> Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 11:35:03 -0500 (CDT)
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To: champ-l@omg.org
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: By the way, I need a character name...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>What was the source of the character's power? (Or some other pieces of
background
>data to be a hook for a name).
Well, I haven't gotten that far into the concept yet. Origin stories would
be appreciated, but may not be used. I tend to like to come up with my own
stories. I don't know how everyone else comes up with character concepts,
but I tend to do mine in any order that appears. Sometimes I'll have a cool
origin before the character, sometimes just a name, sometimes powers I like
mashing together (such as this one). Heck, one time I even based an entire
super hero team off a dream I had. Actually came up with 8 medium power
characters all pretty decent. I'm thinking I have a name for my brick /
mentalist now though, Someone suggested Willforce, which is good, but I
remember a friend had a character with a name that nearly fits perfect.
Iron Will, don't know, still up in the air. Any other suggestions would be
appreciated. Thanks and talk at you later.
Sparx
==================================================================
3000+ E-mail? I don't keep up with the list and blame it entirely on
alternate dimesions.
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Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 11:46:32 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll: Line of Sight
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Bob Greenwade wrote:
> <clip>
> The television isn't the source of the light against by which the
> intended target is being seen, though. The intended target isn't
> reflecting the light of the TV screen (if that were the case, there'd be no
> problem.) The screen is *becoming* the target. It's *creating* the image
> of the intended target, and that image is therefore not coming directly
> from the intended target.
>
So what your saying is only light diretly reflected from the target can be used to
attack a target, that the light that the camera is viewing that is directly
reflected from the taget, encoded and then deencoded is somehow different then
light directly relected. Please explain how?
>
>
> That targeting mechanism -- dot, circle, box, crosshair, whatever -- is
> the means by which the gunner targets (in Hero terms). He's not using his
> own vision to target. To be sure, he's using his own vision to interpret
> what the CRT is showing him and decide what should be selected as a target,
> but (in Hero terms) he's using the fire control system to do the actual
> targeting.
> A mentalist trying to target his mental powers via TV does not, as a
> rule, have the benefit of such a system.
So agent using a gun with an attached Heads up Display is not targeting his
weapon, the HUD is targetting ir for him? My interpreation of this is that the
dot on the HUD is skill levels (supplied by the computer). That is additional
targeting information to give the shooter a better chance to hit. The Nordens
bomb sight didn't aim and drop the bombs. The bomb sight gave the bombadier
better infomation to drop the bombs with, in other word additional skill levels
and telescopic vision through a focus. That's all the HUD systems are, skill
levels supplied by the onboard computer aiding the pilot/gunner in taking the
shot. Just like the attachable HUD's that are becoming so popular in target
shooting these days. The sight doesn't do the targeting, it gives the shooter
additional skill levels aid in hitting the target.
Back to mentalist, the TV only gives the mentalist the possiblity of taking a
shot. The possiblity of success depends on situation and the amount of
information given.
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 09:46:59 -0700
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Steven Mitchell wrote:
>I'd tend to make horns a different entry, or at least a distinct
section.
>To me, it's the same issue as "bites."
I was thinking of horns and claws as external projections. Mouths would
be a different deal.
>So all these creature attacks might have a lot of cross-reference.
>"To see how to build these horns, see claws, permanent."
Yes, and that's why I included a mention of poison, since although
poison will have its own section on the effects of poison, claws can be
a method of poison delivery, and that's what will need to be discussed
in the claw section. The poison section, will of course refer back to
teeth, claws, and other sections as delivery methods.
Bob Greenwade wrote:
>"Tigora has the claws of a tiger." "Fine, that's 1d6 HKA, Reduced
>Penetration. 12 points." It makes character construction much faster
>and creates a standard
And that's why I want to create The Ultimate Superhero.
>Dave listed a slew of other variations, and while I think he may have
>gone a bit overboard on the range possibilities (I agree with you that
>poison would be its own section), I think he has the right general
idea.
That's because it was an off-the-cuff example. I generally trim about
half of my ideas out before I'm done. You should see some of my Haymaker
articles at the halfway mark... Much much bigger.
Thanks for your support, though.
>tell the GM, "I have a yada-yada with Construct X from TUW, is that
OK?"
Yes. Besides answering "how do I do X in Hero?", it also will give
benchmarks. If a character wants to survive a fall from an airplane, or
shoot a laser beam that does as much damage as a handful of dynamite, or
be able to hit a fly with a soda can from across the room, they can have
a definitive source.
Dave Mattingly
http://www.haymaker.org
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Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 12:04:54 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll: Line of Sight
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Bob Greenwade wrote:
> About your construct for a TV, I'm going to say something that I say
> rather rarely -- and, in fact, this is the first time I'm aware of having
> ever said it on this List:
> Your way of constructing it is wrong. Absolutely, totally wrong.
> Telescopic Vision reduces Range Penalties for the distance between the
> viewer and the target. This is not the effect of a TV system *at all.*
My mistake. I wasn't clear enough here. The telescopi vision I was refering to
is that of the zoom lense on the camera. The camera itself is a point of
Clairasentience that has telescopic vision. Anything in front of the camera
lence is blocked. After looking back over my posts, I realize I never maid this
clear. I apologize for my inaccuracy.
> <clip>
> Now, despite the fact that's it's not strictly By The Book, I would
> allow Clairvoyance to be bought with Targeting. This is what the
> cross-hairs on your missile targeting systems would provide. Using a
> crystal ball to target long-distance magic spells is another Special Effect
> for this. But in either case, the targeting would have to be built into
> the Clairvoyance as a special case, not as the default way of doing it.
> ---
The crosshairs are not clairavoyence they are skill levels. That's what a HUD
does, it gives you a better chance to hit by giving you better information about
the target you are shooting at. The base system (ie no additional skill levels)
is just a linve video feed to the eyepiece. The computer then adds details and
information to increase the gunners chance to hit, ie add skill levels. The
weapon can be targeted and fired without the use of this equipment, its just
that the possibility of successfully hitting the target is greatly reduced.
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Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 13:33:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Sun, 31 May 1998, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote:
> (This may have been answered long ago, but I cannot find it anywhere.)
>
> Does it bother anyone else that the 1.5 Handed -1/4 limitation does not
> appear to limit in any way? For an extra -1/4 limit, the owner can wield
> the weapon with one hand at the stated STR min, damage, OCV, etc--just as
> if no limitation was taken. By using 2 hands, the wielder can lower the
> STR min by 2.
A number of people in my local gaming group (myself included) did not like
the weapons rules given in FH, NH and UMA. We felt that the STR min and
damage values for the weapons were unrealistic. So, we rewrote the
weapons (all of them). Among the changes were lowered STR Mins, lowered
damage and removal of the +1 OCV mod for many weapons. The results are on
my website in the Hero Source section.
> I wonder if it shouldn't be this way: 1.5 Handed as normal, except the
> weapon can be used at the stated values with 2 hands. The owner can wield
> the weapon with 1 hand at STR min + 2.
We upped it to +3 STR for 1-handed use. (or, -3 STR for two-handed use).
> That would suggest that a wielder of a 2 handed weapon could use it in 1
> hand at STR min + 5. (Double the required STR sounds about right to me for
> 1 handed use.)
No. That falls apart at higher levels. You don't have to be *that*
strong to use a bastard sword one-handed. This can also lead to more STR
inflation.
> Of course, then you also have the questions about weapon length, balance,
> and the height of the wielder. Somehow I cannot see a 23 STR human using a
> halberd 1 handed, but a 15 STR human wielding a medium spear 1 handed does
> not sound unreasonable--wouldn't he just hold the haft in a different
> place?
No one could ever use a halberd one-handed regradless of how strong oyu
are. The weapon is anywhere from 7' to 9' long and is used like an axe,
you need two hands to simply hold it properly, not to mention swing it. A
spear can be used one-handed, but only to stab and thrust (the Norse did
this, combining spear and sheild. The Greeks and Romans did it as well.)
You would usually hold the weapon in an over-hand (over the shoulder) grip
and thrust with it.
There are many weapons that cannot be used one-handed, regardless of
strength. The actual length of the weapon is usally the deciding
factor.
> If all the above is correct, how many levels of Growth or Shrinking does a
> character need to gain or lose the ability to use certain weapons--for each
> of the "hands"? That is, a 3 foot gnome might need 2 hands to use a small
> spear, but could not use a broadsword regardless of STR.
No, the three-foot gnome would treat a human-sized broadsword as if it was
a greatsword. He'd use two hands to wield it. A single level of
shrinking is enough to make many two-handed human weapons unusable, and
turn most one-handed human weapons into two-handers. Going the other way,
two levels of Growth are probably sufficent to allow one to use certain
two-handed human weapons into one handers. I'd limit it to swords, axes
and maces myself. Any staff weapon will not benefit by the weilding using
only one hand due to his size. OTOH: one would have to look at the staff
weapon in question. Some, such as certain Locaber axes and Bardiches will
work okay one-handed, others may not. The weapons will simply be too
clumsy.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 13:20:48 -0500
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Bob Greenwade writes:
>>House cat 1 pip HKA, Red. Pen.(1/2D6 max with strength) 5/4
>>Dog/Coyote 1/2D6 HKA, Red. Pen. (1D6+1 max with strength) 10/8
>>Tiger 1D6 HKA, Red. Pen. (2D6 max with strength) 15/12
>>Gargoyle 1D6 HKA (2d6 max with strength) 15
>>Bear 1 1/2D6 HKA, Red. Pen. (3D6 max with strength) 25/20
>>Dragon 2 1/2D6 HKA, Red. Pen. (5D6 max with strength) 50/40
>>Godzilla 2D6 HKA, AoE Line (4D6 max with strength) 60
> bunch of stuff snipped <
> Of course not. If the player doesn't want to mess with the finer
points
>of the construction system, then he can just take the Shoulder Cannon II
>as-is. If he does, then he can use the weapons on the list as models for
>starting points. Or he can just build from scratch, like most of us have
>already been doing.
> That's the main thing that construct lists are for -- simplifying
>character construction for those who need it. Creating the
above-mentioned
>standard is a secondary reason; it would probably be enough of a reason by
>tself, but (IMO) making the character creation process easier for newbies
>s a more significant and compelling reason.
Another secondary purpose is making house rules more understandable as
such. If there is a standard, then it is easier to explain house rules as
deviations from that standard. I've never been to a large convention. So
I cannot speak for the problems house rules might have caused there. But I
can say that none of the players in our group are under any illusions about
playing standard Hero.
Think about it. I might tell all the players something like: "All these
standard claws are too weak for my campaign. Bump every damage class up a
notch." If tiger claws on a character are listed as Tiger claws, 1 1/2d6
HKA--then the player moves the character to another campaign--a GM that
doesn't agree with me has a clue about what the heck the player was doing.
If I've provided a list of house rules to my players (and I have), then the
player can show those to the new GM.
Of course, that can be done without components--it's just that components
make it so much easier and less error-prone.
Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 13:19:43 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll: Line of Sight
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 11:46 AM 5/31/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote:
>Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>> <clip>
>> The television isn't the source of the light against by which the
>> intended target is being seen, though. The intended target isn't
>> reflecting the light of the TV screen (if that were the case, there'd be no
>> problem.) The screen is *becoming* the target. It's *creating* the image
>> of the intended target, and that image is therefore not coming directly
>> from the intended target.
>
>So what your saying is only light diretly reflected from the target can be
used to
>attack a target, that the light that the camera is viewing that is directly
>reflected from the taget, encoded and then deencoded is somehow different
then
>light directly relected. Please explain how?
It's simply what's been said all along: the deencoded light is light
from an artificial image of the intended target, and not the intended
target itself.
>> That targeting mechanism -- dot, circle, box, crosshair, whatever -- is
>> the means by which the gunner targets (in Hero terms). He's not using his
>> own vision to target. To be sure, he's using his own vision to interpret
>> what the CRT is showing him and decide what should be selected as a target,
>> but (in Hero terms) he's using the fire control system to do the actual
>> targeting.
>> A mentalist trying to target his mental powers via TV does not, as a
>> rule, have the benefit of such a system.
>
>So agent using a gun with an attached Heads up Display is not targeting his
>weapon, the HUD is targetting ir for him? My interpreation of this is
that the
>dot on the HUD is skill levels (supplied by the computer). That is
additional
>targeting information to give the shooter a better chance to hit. The
Nordens
>bomb sight didn't aim and drop the bombs. The bomb sight gave the bombadier
>better infomation to drop the bombs with, in other word additional skill
levels
>and telescopic vision through a focus. That's all the HUD systems are, skill
>levels supplied by the onboard computer aiding the pilot/gunner in taking the
>shot. Just like the attachable HUD's that are becoming so popular in target
>shooting these days. The sight doesn't do the targeting, it gives the shooter
>additional skill levels aid in hitting the target.
The dot on the HUD is the Targeting element on the system. It enables
the agent to use the HUD, and no other system, to aim the weapon. Without
the HUD, he would not be able to aim the weapon. It's him that's doing the
aiming, but the HUD -- not the video system alone -- gives him the
information necessary to aim it.
Now, there are probably Skill Levels involved in a HUD; that would be
the reason that attachable HUDs are useful. I'd certainly give anywhere
from 4 to 8 Skill Levels for it. But without it, the agent operating that
larger system isn't just "not quite as good" at aiming the missile; he
can't do it at all, at least not without some external help or some darned
good guesswork.
>Back to mentalist, the TV only gives the mentalist the possiblity of taking a
>shot. The possiblity of success depends on situation and the amount of
>information given.
To give Line of Sight in Hero Terms, and therefore be considered a
Targeting Sense, the TV would have to *consistently* give enough
information *all by itself* that the viewer would *consistently* be able to
tell exactly what direction the subject on the screen was from from him,
and how far. Short of that, it's no more than a source of information with
which the mentalist can *attempt* to attack -- but as I've said (and you've
agreed), he'd really be firing blind, shooting at a spot and hoping it
makes it.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
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Reply-To: <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Opinion Poll: Line of Sight
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 13:21:15 -0700
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From: Ross Rannells
>
> Filksinger wrote:
>
<snip>
> >
> > Unfortunately, while it is clearly intended, it isn't quite stated that way.
> > Things which are stated in one part of the book (attacks of various
> > sorts) are also stated to be possible with a "Targeting Sense". Thus,
> > for purposes of attacks in Hero, a "Targeting Sense" gives "LOS",
> > even though there may be no line or sight involved.
> >
> > Filksinger
> >
> > ____________________________________________________________________
> > Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1
>
> So you and I don't read into the ustated parts of the rules same way. The
> way it appears to
> me is that the location of the target needs to be known. Whether the location
> is thruough
> seeing the target (line of sight) or locating it through (mind scan). Either
> way once the
> location is known, other mental powers may be used.
That is one interpretation. However, I believe it to be a false one. Under that
interpretation, the ability to hear a target on the other side of the wall would be "line
of sight". I believe that is stretching "line of sight" way to far.
>Under your interpretation,
> where line of
> sight is key and mind scan just a substitution for line of sight. Then live
> video feeds would
> not be of any help to an egoist who hasn't bought specific advantages on their
> powers. Where as
> in my interpretation, locating the targets mind is key and either mind scan or
> line of sight
> will is suffiecient for this. Then a video feed that gives suffiecient (as
> ruled by the GM)
> would allow for the attack. The reason I like this interpetation is that it
> opens up a whole
> new set of complications for the heros to deal with.
It also gives mentalists a massive increase in power, heavily unbalancing a game. People
with Desolidification can attack while untouchable, but pay a +2 Advantage on every power
used under these circumstances, need to buy special weaknesses to their invulnerability,
are vulnerable to Powers with Affects Desolidification, and have to pay END. A mentalist
attacking people on TV gets all of these benefits without any of these limitations, and
gets it for free. Mentalists who want abilities like this have to pay for them with Mind
Scan now, which has it's own problems, but this gives it away for free.
You want this ability? Fine. Buy Clairvoyance, IPE, only to see locations he can already
see on TV (-2), only for targeting mental powers (-1), with a range to cover the Earth.
This should cost about 200 Active points and 50 Real Points, which is about what such a
potent power would be worth. Keep in mind that other limitations such as "Needs in depth
knowledge of location of target, either by KS: of target's location or careful
measurement" would bring it down more. Alternatives include a similarly limited Mind Scan,
or a bonus to Mind Scan if it is already purchased.
Filksinger
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Opinion Poll: Line of Sight
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 13:21:43 -0700
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From: Ross Rannells [mailto:rossrannells@worldnet.att.net]
>
<snip>
>
> I've already said that a TV , IMO, is not clairvoyence. It's telescopic vision, with
> usuable by others, independant, OAF, Large, must have reciever (the TV) and a large area
> of effect. So why can mental powers be helped by telescopic vision through binoculars
> and not through a CRT?
By the time I get done trying to make it fit your definition, I would effectively have
redefined Clairsentience as telescopic vision. By your reasoning, Clairvoyance shouldn't
even exist. I cannot determine what it is about a TV that makes it more Telescopic Vision
than Clairvoyance.
It takes much fewer Limitations, Advantages, and other Powers to make Clairvoyance work
than Telescopic Sense. Half the changes I have to make in Telescopic Sense to allow it to
work (sees through walls, different point of view, etc.) are already part of Clairvoyance.
Filksinger
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: RE: By the way, I need a character name...
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 13:21:46 -0700
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> From: Sparx
>
>
> Along with my fun Delayed Teleport question, I have another. This one is a
> lot simpler though. Anyone have a good name for a mentalist / brick? Not
> incredible in either, above average strength and a few mental powers. Heck,
> might even get delayed teleport :) Thanks in advance. Take it easy and
> talk at you later.
>
Mind Block?
<G,D,&R,VVF>
Filksinger
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Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 13:23:59 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll: Line of Sight
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 12:04 PM 5/31/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote:
>Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>> About your construct for a TV, I'm going to say something that I say
>> rather rarely -- and, in fact, this is the first time I'm aware of having
>> ever said it on this List:
>> Your way of constructing it is wrong. Absolutely, totally wrong.
>> Telescopic Vision reduces Range Penalties for the distance between the
>> viewer and the target. This is not the effect of a TV system *at all.*
>
>My mistake. I wasn't clear enough here. The telescopi vision I was
refering to
>is that of the zoom lense on the camera. The camera itself is a point of
>Clairasentience that has telescopic vision. Anything in front of the camera
>lence is blocked. After looking back over my posts, I realize I never
maid this
>clear. I apologize for my inaccuracy.
Actually, By The Book, Clairvoyance in any form cannot be used to target
an attack. As has been discussed and agreed to here, it can be used to
gather enough information to make an educated guess as to where a "blind"
attack should be aimed, but that's not the same as targeting (in Hero terms).
(Apology accepted.) :-]
>> Now, despite the fact that's it's not strictly By The Book, I would
>> allow Clairvoyance to be bought with Targeting. This is what the
>> cross-hairs on your missile targeting systems would provide. Using a
>> crystal ball to target long-distance magic spells is another Special Effect
>> for this. But in either case, the targeting would have to be built into
>> the Clairvoyance as a special case, not as the default way of doing it.
>
>The crosshairs are not clairavoyence they are skill levels. That's what a
HUD
>does, it gives you a better chance to hit by giving you better information
about
>the target you are shooting at. The base system (ie no additional skill
levels)
>is just a linve video feed to the eyepiece. The computer then adds
details and
>information to increase the gunners chance to hit, ie add skill levels. The
>weapon can be targeted and fired without the use of this equipment, its just
>that the possibility of successfully hitting the target is greatly reduced.
No, the crosshairs are not Clairvoyance. The TV system itself (actually
the camera) is Clairvoyance. The crosshairs are the system which turns the
Clairvoyance into a Targeting Sense. Otherwise the gunner is just
extrapolating information into educated guesswork.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Lighter Characters (was Poll: Champions Dialogue #2.)
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Bob Greenwade writes:
>> Interesting... since a character with 10" of Flight and a 60 Strength
>> can carry a 100 ton object and fly at his full 10".
> I'm not sure what this has to do with Robert's post.
Just that inches of Flight and mass of the flyer and what he is carrying
have no relevance to each other. A 60 Strength character with 10" of
flight can fly 10" per action whether he carries nothing or a 100 ton
object, even if that character himself has a mass of 100 tons.
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Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 13:50:26 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Normals with Powers (change the subject once in a while, dammit!)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
happyelf wrote:
> >
> > Now, considering the fact that blue is the most subjectively intense
> > color for most people, it seems perfectly reasonable that the "blue"
> > cones will have a significant response into the near ultraviolet.
> >
>
> like i said, a backwards dopler thing *l*.
Confusion reigns: this has nothing whatsoever to do with a dopplar
effect, so I am not sure what you are getting at.
The retina works by photoreactive pigments. Pigments respond to light by
absorption. The absorption cross-section always varies by frequency;
for wavelengths of interest, this will have the approximate form
exp[-(l-k)^2*s], where l is the wavelength being measured, k is the
wavelength of the absorption peak and s is a sensitivity factor. I am
ignoring amplitude, which is certainly part of the equation, but not of
interest here, and leaving the result unnormalized.
In a three color reception system, the pigments have absorption peaks of
i<j<k. Assuming no attenuation from the optics and identical sensitivity
factors, a wavelength of L will result in an ordered triplet that
uniquely identifies the color:
exp[-(L-i)^2*s]; exp[-(L-j)^2*s]; exp[-(L-k)^2*s]
Successfully detecting colors with wavelengths < i is not only possible,
but unavoidable. As we approach the upper limit of sensitivity, the
triplets will start to look like (X,0,0), with X decreasing with
increasing frequency. There is nothing "backwards" about this, and it
certainly does not involve a Dopplar effect, which is the change in
apparent wavelength with the relative velocity of the source and
observer.
Note that a high sensitivity factor will allow fine color discrimination,
but will narrow the useful range of the pigment. This is why a two-color
system is inferior to a three-color system: if pigments with a high color
sensitivity are used, the range of colors will be restricted; if pigments
with a wide color range are used, color discrimination will be low.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
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Melinda and Steven Mitchell writes:
> (This may have been answered long ago, but I cannot find it anywhere.)
> Does it bother anyone else that the 1.5 Handed -1/4 limitation does not
> appear to limit in any way? For an extra -1/4 limit, the owner can wield
> the weapon with one hand at the stated STR min, damage, OCV, etc--just as
> if no limitation was taken. By using 2 hands, the wielder can lower the
> STR min by 2.
I think you are not reading it right.
Two-handed weapons get a limitation mostly because they require two hands
to use, even if you have sufficient strength to wield it with one hand. It
is simply too unwieldly to use with one hand. This is especially important
for things like melee weapons, because you cannot use a shield properly
without a free hand.
One-handed weapons do not get this limitation.
Hand-and-a-half weapons can be used with either one or two hands, so it
gets a limitation between the two. It is not getting the limitation
because of the StrMin.
Hand-and-a-half weapons are not two-handed weapons that can be wielded with
one hand; they are one-handed weapons that can be wielded with two hands.
That is where the StrMin modifier comes into play.
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Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 14:21:34 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Normals with Powers (change the subject once in a while, dammit!)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Bob Greenwade writes:
>
> > Hm... am I, then, not the only person on the list who can hear the white
> > of a CRT, thus being able to tell by hearing when a TV is on even when the
> > volume is completely off? :-]
>
> No, you are not.
>
> Like I said, unusual, but not abnormal.
Unusual? I thought that nearly everyone could hear the whine of a
TV, a monitor or of a fluorescent lamp. Even I can still hear those!
I assume that one is hearing the hysterisis-induced vibrations from the
flyback transformer. 525 lines x 30 frames/second for a standard TV is
15.75KHz: a mere perfect fourth above the highest note on the Wanamaker
Organ in Philadelphia.
BTW, the Guiness Book of World Records notes that children with asthma
"commonly" hear frequencies in excess of 30KHz.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
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Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 15:03:47 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Delayed Teleport...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Sparx wrote:
>
> Want to build a character who steps into a teleport
> disk and steps back out a couple of phases later. This is his own super
> power. But basically a delayed teleport, also making him relatively safe
> for the amount of time he is in his teleport dimension. Any clue how this
> would be built? Usually my questions are easy and I'm just not thinking
> when I'm asking, but we'll see. Thanks and talk at you later.
In my campaign, one character, named Portal, has this as a special effect
of the extra phase when he does non-combat teleports. He takes a full
action and disappears in phase 1 and reappears at the same DEX in phase
2, having used a full action. Once started, the character has no way to
stop the long-range teleport. This can be very convenient (he isn't
there when the grenade goes off), or very inconvenient (a flamethrower
just exploded, and his target hex is engulfed in fire; he was needed
elsewhere, but was in transit; he failed to observe something vital
because he wasn't anywhere). IMO, the advantages and disadvantages
cancel out.
If the interval is greater than one phase, I would give the Extra Time
limitation, provided that the character has no control over when he comes
back, and cannot affect the physical world. It would probably be abusive
to take recoveries in transit.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
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Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 15:03:47 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Delayed Teleport...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Sparx wrote:
>
> Want to build a character who steps into a teleport
> disk and steps back out a couple of phases later. This is his own super
> power. But basically a delayed teleport, also making him relatively safe
> for the amount of time he is in his teleport dimension. Any clue how this
> would be built? Usually my questions are easy and I'm just not thinking
> when I'm asking, but we'll see. Thanks and talk at you later.
In my campaign, one character, named Portal, has this as a special effect
of the extra phase when he does non-combat teleports. He takes a full
action and disappears in phase 1 and reappears at the same DEX in phase
2, having used a full action. Once started, the character has no way to
stop the long-range teleport. This can be very convenient (he isn't
there when the grenade goes off), or very inconvenient (a flamethrower
just exploded, and his target hex is engulfed in fire; he was needed
elsewhere, but was in transit; he failed to observe something vital
because he wasn't anywhere). IMO, the advantages and disadvantages
cancel out.
If the interval is greater than one phase, I would give the Extra Time
limitation, provided that the character has no control over when he comes
back, and cannot affect the physical world. It would probably be abusive
to take recoveries in transit.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
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Subject: Re: A Golden Age Campaign with a Twist
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From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 19:09:00 EDT
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>>>Hmm... if you want to throw a bit of moral dilemma at the PCs... Let
>>>them discover that the 'formula' requires innocent(s) to die.
>>While this is an excellent idea, I think it might make for a somewhat
grimmer
>>tone than I'd like to use in a "Golden Age" campaign; perhaps it's
enough of a
>>moral dilemma that they must use Mastermind's own research to gain
>>super-powers, knowing that Mastermind sacrificed innocent lives to
create the
>>Zarathustra formula.
One of the ingredients could be something that is unavailable in the PC's
home time/world, but available in the 1940's. If Mastermind is anywhere
near smart enough to pull this plan off, he's keeping his eyes open for
anyone collecting the needed supplies to whip up a batch of the formula
-- and if one of the ingredients is unusually rare, he's probably got all
of it under lock and key.
Leah
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Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 10:13:55 +1000
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Mad Hamish <h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Vehicles -- the Vulnerability, *2 BODY, of Hero.
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 10:02 AM 5/25/98 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Joe Mucchiello writes:
>
>> Most people forget that spacecraft design IS rocket science. Of course,
>> you need heavy duty math to figure this stuff out. :-)
>
>As an interesting aside, right now nobody in the world knows how to build a
>Saturn V rocket. The design notes were accidentally destroyed, and
>everyone on the design team is dead, now.
I sense a conspiracy here....
****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************
Mad Hamish
Hamish Laws
h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au
h_laws@tassie.net.au
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Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 10:14:28 +1000
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Mad Hamish <h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 03:44 PM 5/25/98 -0300, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>On Sun, 24 May 1998, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote:
>
>> Let me try another slant on this. Would everyone agree that there are 3
>> fairly distinct GM activities?
>> #1 Designing powers, weapons, whatever
>> #2 Assembling these parts into creatures, charactes, etc.
>> #3 Running the game.
>>
>> All RPGs give you #3, and I'm not really very concerned with it. Most RPGs
>> give you some guidelines and examples on #2. But very few (maybe only
>> Hero) gives you #1. Yeah, the other games give you a list of things. This
>> is what GURPs mostly does, especially in their magic and psionic sections.
>> Anyone want to take a crack at adding spells to GURPs? You can do it, but
>> it's all just judgment call and then playtest it--same as for AD&D,
>> Rolemaster, you name it.
>
>IMODO, a fantasy RPG without a spell creation system is almost as unplayable
>as a superhero game without a power creation system - but now that you
>mention it, Ars Magica and Fantasy Hero are the only fantasy games I can
>think of that have one.
>
Earthdawn by FASA has one. It's not perfect but it's there.
****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************
Mad Hamish
Hamish Laws
h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au
h_laws@tassie.net.au
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Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 10:14:40 +1000
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net&>
Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Mad Hamish <h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 09:30 PM 5/25/98 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Trevor Barrie writes:
>
>> One could argue that, if the GM feels that it makes sense for incredibly
>> good climbing skill to perform such feats, he or she will use the
>> Extraordinary Skill rules; if they don't, they're probably not going to
>> allow this character concept into their campaign.
>
>A point that I already made.
>
>> I don't think this argument holds for the super-hero genre, though; the
>> Extraordinary Skill rules are fairly clearly inappropriate to that genre,
>> but "super-skill" types are fairly common.
>
>Remember that the construct came out of "Dark Champions", a setting in
>which the characters are on a scale similar to superagents. Full-blown
>superskills are not really appropriate for that type of setting, but
>extraordinary skills are.
So in Dark Champions you'd allow someone with Breakfall to fall from a
plane and not take damage? The example in the book.
****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************
Mad Hamish
Hamish Laws
h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au
h_laws@tassie.net.au
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Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 10:16:49 +1000
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Mad Hamish <h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: How complicated is Champions?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 08:58 PM 5/27/98 -0700, John Desmarais wrote:
>---Melinda and Steven Mitchell <mdmitche@advicom.net> wrote:
>>
>> You guys want to change the name of this thread to "How complicated
>FH"?
>> We FH fans seem to be the only ones interested. :-)
Well I don't think I have the in depth system knowledge to really comment
on it.
>>
>> Does that mean that Hero is about right for Champions, but
>complicated for
>> other genres?
I think that Champions is much better at modelling some genres than others.
I also think that the dependence on Special Effect can cause people to
struggle with it in some Genre's. I can't think of an example off the top
of my head though, I also think that the special effects would cause
problems for people used to some other game systems.
Also as the arguments about 250 point cops showed there will be widely
different levels of skill use necessary in different types of games.
>
>Well, it's strength is certainly the superhero genre, but I've never
>felt it was too complicated for other genres (although I've never
>tried to a do something like Toon with it).
I don't know how i'd do comedy in Hero, I suspect I'd be simplifying things
somewhat and making combat a fair bit safer but I'd need a lot of thought
for it.
>
>As for why FH comes up so much - a couple of reasons. One, other than
>Champions, it's the genre that has gotten the most publisher support.
>Also, most games get their start with D&D or AD&D, so when you're
>trying to convert players FH is a pretty good route to take - you get
>the Hero rules, but a setting that's more or less familiar to the
>players.
Also have a look at any roleplaying game list and see how many of the
systems are fantasy, it's a high percentage (although possibly not as high
now as a couple of years back) Fantasy is probably still the major
roleplaying genre.
> If the only system you know is (A)D&D, just by nature of
>being different, Hero can seem complicated (actually, I don't think
>it's really a problem with seeming complicated, but seeming daunting -
>the whole idea of "you can build whatever kind of character you want"
>can really throw people who think in terms of "roll some dice, pick a
>class, pick a race, etc...)
I know that I found it hard to adjust to Hero, possibly because I'd come
through D&D, AD&D & Earthdawn as my major roleplaying games (I tried Marvel
& DC heroes for superhero games first as well), I still find it hard to
build super hero characters to 250 points (possibly because I love flexible
characters, my latest headaches are a mystical brick and a cyborg with
cyberkinesis)
****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************
Mad Hamish
Hamish Laws
h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au
h_laws@tassie.net.au
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing
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Date: 31 May 1998 21:47:03 -0400
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Mad Hamish writes:
>> Remember that the construct came out of "Dark Champions", a setting in
>> which the characters are on a scale similar to superagents. Full-blown
>> superskills are not really appropriate for that type of setting, but
>> extraordinary skills are.
> So in Dark Champions you'd allow someone with Breakfall to fall from a
> plane and not take damage? The example in the book.
I'd be more inclined (or at least just as inclined) to allow that as I
would allow someone to "climb" a wall by running rilly-rilly fast.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
\
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Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 21:32:42 -0500
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: A Golden Age Campaign with a Twist
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>One of the ingredients could be something that is unavailable in the PC's
>home time/world, but available in the 1940's.
Like original Coke? :)
Damon
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
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Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 22:34:04 -0400
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com&>
"Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 07:26 AM 5/31/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>I think an Ultimate Monster book ;-) would be very short on how and very
>>long on examples of complete creatures. Of course, that would be a more
>>late-90s name for the Beastiary.
>
> Don't be so sure. When I first mentioned TUSV to Steve Long, his
>reaction was that he thought it would be a fairly thin book. Of course,
>this was before he saw my manuscript for a book that promises to rival TUSM
>for sheer size.
I said "short on how" not "short in length". It will be a big book. (And
TUSV sounds like a large book to me. Steve must not have really thought
about it.)
Joe
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Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 23:01:57 -0400
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com&> champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 07:20 AM 5/31/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 03:08 PM 5/30/1998 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>>Claws will not have -1 OCV or charges, etc. This is why I'm having a
>>problem with it. Claws depend on the size of the creature using them.
>>There is not a lot of variation in claws. How does a list of mouse to
>>dragon claws really help? I don't see it. What value does this have?
>>
>>House cat 1 pip HKA, Red. Pen.(1/2D6 max with strength) 5/4
>>Dog/Coyote 1/2D6 HKA, Red. Pen. (1D6+1 max with strength) 10/8
>>Tiger 1D6 HKA, Red. Pen. (2D6 max with strength) 15/12
>>Gargoyle 1D6 HKA (2d6 max with strength) 15
>>Bear 1 1/2D6 HKA, Red. Pen. (3D6 max with strength) 25/20
>>Dragon 2 1/2D6 HKA, Red. Pen. (5D6 max with strength) 50/40
>>Godzilla 2D6 HKA, AoE Line (4D6 max with strength) 60
>
> That table would be a good start. Some of these will be 1/2 END (the
>feline ones) while other will be 0 END. The Dragon's claws might have
>Armor Piercing; a bearcat's (one you didn't include) would probably be
>Penetrating.
Why would a cat get 1/2 END for it's claws? That would make the strength
addition so annoying to attach unless you buy the cat's STR with 1/2 END.
Besides, none of the sample felines in FH have 1/2 END.
Dragon: Okay, throw in AP.
Bearcat: never heard of it.
> Even just given your table above, that can create a good standard.
>"Tigora has the claws of a tiger." "Fine, that's 1d6 HKA, Reduced
>Penetration. 12 points." It makes character construction much faster and
>creates a standard that can stretch across campaigns, like the weapons
charts.
But you still have to write 1D6 HKA on the character sheet or else you'll
have to refer to the chart while playing.
> Even just given your table above, that can create a good standard.
>"Tigora has the claws of a tiger." "Fine, that's 1d6 HKA, Reduced
>Penetration. 12 points." It makes character construction much faster and
>creates a standard that can stretch across campaigns, like the weapons
charts.
>[...]
> You gave a couple of nice variations in your above list (Reduced
>Penetration for most, straight for Gargoyle, AoE: Line for Godzilla). As I
>pointed out with the bearcat and the suggestion for feline claws, there's
>even more variation that can be had.
But, it is not realistic. Why felines? Why not just call them Claws I and
Claws II at that point? It's just as much a part of normal life as
Shoulder Cannon II.
I made all of the normal creates Red.Pen. because Red.Pen. suggests it.
Gargoyles are stone like so it didn't seem appropriate. Godzilla is huge
and huge creature could have AoE line on a HKA. (I think I stole that from
a Brick article: STR with AoE Hex, selective for easy Sweeps.)
>[...] And having well-indexed tables showing and explaining how each of
>these things are done (well, probably except for the size; that's pretty
>straightforward) is a bit easier than trying to look up each creature,
>seeing the listing there, at times having to reverse-engineer the creation,
>and *then* getting it down.
I would argue the HKA is equally straightforward but apparently I'm in the
minority there.
>>Okay. Stephen was talking pages and that was what I was having trouble
>>with. The whole table should be less than half a page with maybe two
>>paragraphs of text. Poison would be its own section.
>
> It depends, of course, on how many variations on claws you have.
>Retractable claws would be slightly different from those that are out all
>the time (I was using 1/2 END vs 0 END above). Particularly tough claws
>(like those of a bearcat) would have some Advantage like AP or Penetrating.
Actually, strong claws should not have AP as much as they should lose the
Red.Pen. limitation. The claws would have to be spiked or something to
include AP.
> The idea (IMO) is to enable newbie players to tell the GM, "Based on my
>concept as being yada-yada, I want Construct X from The Ultimate Whatever,"
If you have a newbie saying "based on my concept", you have a newbie who
will not need these constructs. Newbies usually have the most trouble
deciding what they will be when they hear that they can be "anything."
>and since the GM has a standard to go by and can always throw Construct X
>back at the character with another yada-yada on a moment's notice (thanks
>to TUW), the whole thing runs a lot more smoothly. Secondarily, should the
>player want to take that character to a convention, he can just tell the
>GM, "I have a yada-yada with Construct X from TUW, is that OK?" rather than
>having to list the whole Power with Advantages and Limitations and show his
>math.
So this theoretical GM knows Construct X from TUW and doesn't need the
Power with Advantages and Limitations explained? (Not that TUW means
anything to me.) He still needs the power, the character's STR to compare
against his DC limit for his game.
Joe
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Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 00:02:22 -0400
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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> Hand-and-a-half weapons are not two-handed weapons that can be wielded
with
> one hand; they are one-handed weapons that can be wielded with two hands.
> That is where the StrMin modifier comes into play.
But wasn't that the point of the question? If the default method of using a
weapon is one-handed, why is it a limitation to be able to use it either
one-handed (at normal STR min) or two-handed (at a reduced STR min). This
seems to be a case of a Limitation that is actually an advantage. It would
seem more logical that the 1 1/2 handed Limitation would result in a weapon
that could be used eiter two-handed (at the normal STR min) or one-handed
at an increased STR min).
Of course, for normal weapons off the list in a heroic level game, the
point is academic, but when the character is building a special weapon that
he/she needs to expend points on, it becomes important.
Jeff Reid
Morfhis@compuserve.com
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm
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Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 00:05:28 -0400 (EDT)
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Grant Enfield <genfield@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Double Points
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Steven Mitchell (mdmitche@advicom.net) wrote:
>
>Here is a proposal sure to irritate the traditionalists ;-)
>
>I think all point costs (and experience) in Hero should be doubled.
>three resons snipped...
I don't know that I'd like to see all the point costs doubled as much as I
might like to see the resolution increased for everything, effectively
increasing all the point costs.
250 point supers work fine, but when I try to build 50 or 25 point
high-schoolers for a World-of-Darkness-LITE! campaign, I run into trouble
making one big, strong guy different from another, or giving them enough
skills to be fun to play but still appropriate for the campaign's power
level. There are just so many fewer "break points" at lower point values.
It'd be nice to be able to feel like I have as many options when building my
character regardless of the campaign power level: perhaps some way to make
power level and point-value independent?
There's a dark hole to crawl into for little good reason....
grant
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Grant Enfield <genfield@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re:Delayed Teleport
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Sparx wrote:
>Ah, yes, let me make myself a tad more clear here. I noticed I left that
>part out, but I did use the word teleport meaning movement power as in
>Champions terms. Yes, I wish to have a character for simple math right now
>that can Teleport let's say 10" and it would take him a phase to step into
>the dimension and not come out until his next phase. Or for more fun, not
>come out until he wants to. Or yet even more fun, length of time depends
>on distance of teleport. Now, let's take friends along :) Ok, I have now
>thought of one way to do this, but there has got to be a cheaper way.
An option for Extra-Dimensional Movement is to make movement in the "extra"
dimension relative to the "regular" dimension. So why not use EDM to move
to another, big, white dimension with nothing in it (like where those
dancers in the GAP khakis commercials live but after they've gone home so
it's empty now) and run or walk or fly or whatever as far as you want to go
then EDM back to the "regular" universe at a point relative to the one you
moved to?
That'd take a couple of phases with elapsed time depending on the distance.
Kind of expensive maybe....
grant
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Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 00:39:04 -0400 (EDT)
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Grant Enfield <genfield@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: How Complicated is Champions? (LONG)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
I've been following this discussion, and it's been pretty interesting.
I was with you all who wanted to build lists of powers until the last few
sends. The idea of a table for "claws" with kitty-cat claws, small angry
tiger claws, large dragon claws, Godzilla claws, etc. doesn't seem to be of
much use to me.
A table, on the other hand, that had examples of many ways to build claws
with the point costs per Damage Class would appear much more useful to me.
You could have examples of claws built with Reduced Penetration, Armor
Piercing, or whatever and examples of the types of things those powers may
be useful with.
For example:
The power HKA, O END, Reduced Pentration may be good to use for animal
claws, while HKA, O END, Area Effect Hex may be good for large monsters like
dragons or something. You find the KIND of power you want, then buy as many
DCs as you wish.
Another, similarly useful list may be of NND special effects and the
"reasonably common" defenses for them. Standardizing some of these powers
and defenses would be very helpful.
This brings up another issue:
The list of NNDs and defenses would, of course, be campaign specific. An
NND with hardened mental defense and the like for its defenses wouldn't be
allowed in a campaign without mental powers or would have to prescribe other
defenses.
I believe these lists of powers-as-special-effects, or "components," as
Steven Mitchell has called them, are actually the "components" for specific
campaigns. I would be interested in seeing HERO publish campaign books.
Doesn't GURPS have a zillion books for every possible camapign? In other
words, the Fantasy HERO book is pretty good, but the Western Shores sucks as
a campaign milieu. Why not let people publish their own campaigns, complete
with magic systems, races, monsters and all that? Isn't this where these
lists of powers-as-special-effects are headed? Won't there be lists for
Mecha gear, medieval weapons, space weapons and technology, etc.? Why
confine all these to the HERO Universe? Why not populate a bunch of
universes, each with a campaign book?
Rather than a book with lists of claws, bites, and ancient magic scepters,
I'd like to see Joe Smith's Arabian Nights HERO with it's own magic,
monsters, and whatever. Someone's always posting write-ups of characters
from movies, novels, TV shows. Let's see the campaigns those characters
belong to. Sure, some will overlap and may fit together (Action Movie HERO
or Gritty Police Drama HERO or World-of-Darkness-LITE! HERO) but there
should be a forum where these sorts of things can appear.
What do you think?
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Double Points
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 23:57:22 -0500
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Grant Enfield writes:
>Steven Mitchell (mdmitche@advicom.net) wrote:
>>
>>Here is a proposal sure to irritate the traditionalists ;-)
>>
>>I think all point costs (and experience) in Hero should be doubled.
>
>>three resons snipped...
>
>I don't know that I'd like to see all the point costs doubled as much as I
>might like to see the resolution increased for everything, effectively
>increasing all the point costs.
I suggested doubling the points, then changing the resolution once it's a
little easier to do (with the doubled points). Incidently, doubling is not
arbitrary. I've tried 1/2 points, 1/3 points, 1/10 points, and even 1/100
points using the current system. It always boiled down to anything smaller
than 1/2 was a very specific experiment--I might keep it or not, but it
didn't really apply to anything else. OTOH, once you start using 1/2
points, you find all kinds of uses for them. You listed one of them:
>250 point supers work fine, but when I try to build 50 or 25 point
>high-schoolers for a World-of-Darkness-LITE! campaign, I run into trouble
>making one big, strong guy different from another, or giving them enough
>skills to be fun to play but still appropriate for the campaign's power
>level. There are just so many fewer "break points" at lower point values.
Another is getting rid of annoying progressions. Example, build TK powers
in nice even (Hero) increments of 5, 10, 15, etc. STR. But TK is 3 CP/ 2
STR. So you either fudge a little, or just give 6 STR instead of 5. (I
fudge.) With double points, it's 3 CP/ 1 STR--no problem. I'm sure the
list readers can point out many more.
Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Thor vs. Captain America
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 21:58:40 -0700
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> From: Bob Greenwade
>
>
<snip>
> I've neither read the book nor seen the movie, I just got a private
> email from someone who tells me (much to my surprise) that the town in
> which it takes place in Corvallis (where I am)!
> I'm curious if the landmarks and other features of Corvallis, Oregon
> were used, or if the name was just drawn up by Mr. Brin because it sounded
> interesting (there's a guy in Virginia whose given name is Corvallis, just
> because his father found the name on the map and thought it sounded neat).
Well, as I recall, most of the activity in the book took place out of town. However, the
University was key to part of the book, as it was apparently the home of the only
surviving superintelligent superconducting supercomputer. The collapse of civilization
preceding the book took place a significant distance into the future, though not more than
a few decades from when it was written.
Filksinger
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 00:04:58 -0500
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Jeff Reid writes:
>> Hand-and-a-half weapons are not two-handed weapons that can be wielded
with
>> one hand; they are one-handed weapons that can be wielded with two
hands.
>> That is where the StrMin modifier comes into play.
>But wasn't that the point of the question? If the default method of using
a
>weapon is one-handed, why is it a limitation to be able to use it either
>one-handed (at normal STR min) or two-handed (at a reduced STR min). This
>seems to be a case of a Limitation that is actually an advantage. It would
>seem more logical that the 1 1/2 handed Limitation would result in a
weapon
>that could be used eiter two-handed (at the normal STR min) or one-handed
>at an increased STR min).
>Of course, for normal weapons off the list in a heroic level game, the
>point is academic, but when the character is building a special weapon
that
>he/she needs to expend points on, it becomes important.
That's precisely the point of the question. Also, I'm not even close to
being a weapons expert, but I've always understood that a 1.5 handed weapon
was somewhat of a distinct animal because of the hilt length--there's not a
whole lot extra (to keep it short as possible for 1 handed use), but
there's enough to give the second hand a reason for being there.
Presumably, that's another reason why a 3' gnome could use a broadsword as
a greatsword--his hands are proportionally smaller.
Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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From: Firelynx16@aol.com
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Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 01:17:43 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll: Line of Sight
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
In a message dated 98-05-31 12:04:50 EDT, you write:
>
> I have no problem visualizing your string. What I have a problem with is
> how it
> gets broken by the various translations the light goes through when it
> travels
> from the camera to the CRT.
It gets broken because Sight (normal sight, seeing with your eyes) ends at the
tv screen. Normal eyesight doesn't see beyond the screen. The Target, the
person you have to *detect* with your Targeting Sense (sight) has not been
detected. You understand that for LoS to be established, you must *detect*
your target with your targeting sense, right? That means for Sight, you must
*see your target*. Looking at a tv screen does not do that. Sight cannot
'see' along electrical wires and transmitters. Seeing the general location is
irrelevant for LoS. Mind Scan is another thing entirely. A tv could
certainly help. All I'm talking about is LoS. And since you cannot see *the
target*, (not a picture of the target), LoS isn't established.
>
> > >
> >
> > I think I've gotten too complicated in this. Let's simplify. In order
to
> > establish LoS, the attacker must be able to *detect* his/her target with
a
> > targeting sense. A mentalist looking at a tv *cannot* do this with his/
> her
> > sight alone because they *cannot* see (detect) the target. They are only
> able
> > to see (detect) a *reproduction* of that target on the tv screen.
> Therefore,
> > LoS cannot be established. Period.
>
> Here is where we disagree. If enough contextual information is given on
the
> screen then the location of the target may be deterimined. IMO this gives
> the
> egoist the possiblity of using their powers
Sure, if it's Mind Scan we're talking about. General location would help
tremendously. But we're talking about LoS. Or at least, that's what I'm
talking about.
>
> > It doesn't matter if the image is a live
> > feed, or a taped broadcast, the television monitor is *only* capable of
> > showing an electronic reproduction. Targeting senses work the same for
a
> > mentalist as they do for an energy blaster or a sniper, in that you have
> to be
> > able to detect your target with your sense in order to hit them. A
sniper
> > aiming their rifle at an image of a person on a tv screen would, in no
> stretch
> > of the imagination, hit that person in real life. (unless they were
hiding
> > behind the tv, maybe) They'd just put a nasty hole in the tv. Same goes
> for
> > mentalists.
>
> The targetting sence for mentalist, IMO, is knowing the location of the
mind
> of
> the target.
Not the location of the mind, but rather just being able to see the target.
pg 147..... "Mental Combat works on a line-of-sight basis; if an attacker can
see the target, he can affect him with no Range Modifier." That's why the tv
example doesn't work, because you aren't *seeing* your target, you're seeing
an image of him.
> Line of Sight and Mind Scan are two ways of knowing this. It
> comes
> down to interpreting a part of the rules that are not spelled out. Are
line
> of
> sight and mind scan two parts of the same thing or are they two seperate
> things.
They are separate things. To attack, mentalists must be able to see their
targets. Mind Scan supersedes this requirement. When MS is established, it
becomes a Targeting Sense.
'Lynx
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Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 01:24:02 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: dive for cover question
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
I have always thought that when a character dove for cover that they ended up
on the ground. If the dive for cover was an inch or two away, it might make
sense that they just sidestepped or jumped, and could still be upright. But
beyond that, I'm picturing heros diving full out, head first, to avoid some
blast, or to interpose themselves between a bullet and an innocent bystander.
Heros with Breakfall, or maybe Acrobatics might come out on their feet.
This came up in the game tonight, and it made me wonder. I couldn't find
anything one way or the other in the book.
How do y'all handle this?
'Lynx
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: How Complicated is Champions? (LONG)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 00:39:26 -0500
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Grant Enfield writes:
>I've been following this discussion, and it's been pretty interesting.
>I was with you all who wanted to build lists of powers until the last few
>sends. The idea of a table for "claws" with kitty-cat claws, small angry
>tiger claws, large dragon claws, Godzilla claws, etc. doesn't seem to be
of
>much use to me.
>A table, on the other hand, that had examples of many ways to build claws
>with the point costs per Damage Class would appear much more useful to me.
>You could have examples of claws built with Reduced Penetration, Armor
>Piercing, or whatever and examples of the types of things those powers may
>be useful with.
>For example:
>The power HKA, O END, Reduced Pentration may be good to use for animal
>claws, while HKA, O END, Area Effect Hex may be good for large monsters
like
>dragons or something. You find the KIND of power you want, then buy as
many
>DCs as you wish.
This is actually how most of my own components currently look. I've been
assuming lists because that is how weapons are presented. I suppose it is
really an editorial decision, based on the amount of space and how
complicated the table is. The one thing you do lose with a table is the
host of specific example tied to a DC--depending on the component, that may
or may not be a problem.
>Another, similarly useful list may be of NND special effects and the
>"reasonably common" defenses for them. Standardizing some of these powers
>and defenses would be very helpful.
I find it helps to break up all "campaign allowed" special effects into
-1/4 limitation amounts, then count down from -2. Then I can be consistent
on defenses. My haymaker 17 submission has a short article along those
lines. For example, I think "only against electrical attacks" are worth -2
in my campaign--so one effect. OTOH, fire is broken down into normal fire
and magical fire, each worth -1/4. So "only against fire attacks" are
worth -1 1/2. When you get up around 5 or more effects, you start needing
2 or 3 to get another -1/4 decrease.
>This brings up another issue:
>The list of NNDs and defenses would, of course, be campaign specific. An
>NND with hardened mental defense and the like for its defenses wouldn't be
>allowed in a campaign without mental powers or would have to prescribe
other
>defenses.
See previous response. Yea--you are going where I've been trying to go!
What should be presented in the HSR, or FH, or whatever "general" book is
appropriate, is the "pattern" of the component, with a few approachable
examples.
>I believe these lists of powers-as-special-effects, or "components," as
>Steven Mitchell has called them, are actually the "components" for
specific
>campaigns. I would be interested in seeing HERO publish campaign books.
>Doesn't GURPS have a zillion books for every possible camapign? In other
>words, the Fantasy HERO book is pretty good, but the Western Shores sucks
as
>a campaign milieu. Why not let people publish their own campaigns,
complete
>with magic systems, races, monsters and all that? Isn't this where these
>lists of powers-as-special-effects are headed? Won't there be lists for
>Mecha gear, medieval weapons, space weapons and technology, etc.? Why
>confine all these to the HERO Universe? Why not populate a bunch of
>universes, each with a campaign book?
Now this is what I've been leading up to. You anticipated me. The point
of the components, meta Hero, patterns, and examples is to make those
campaign books possible--and much easier to write. Where something matches
the campaign, the author can just say, "We use claw list (or table) #1 from
FH," or maybe not say anything at all beyond "if it's not listed here, use
the FH rules and examples." When something is close, the author can list
the exceptions, rather than repeating a lot. Even when the campaign does
something completely differently, the other work still helps. If a
component starts showing up in lots of different campaign books, that's a
dead giveaway for Hero Games to include it in the next edition of a more
general book.
>Rather than a book with lists of claws, bites, and ancient magic scepters,
>I'd like to see Joe Smith's Arabian Nights HERO with it's own magic,
>monsters, and whatever. Someone's always posting write-ups of characters
>from movies, novels, TV shows. Let's see the campaigns those characters
>belong to. Sure, some will overlap and may fit together (Action Movie
HERO
>or Gritty Police Drama HERO or World-of-Darkness-LITE! HERO) but there
>should be a forum where these sorts of things can appear.
When Joe Smith writes his campaign, he might get down to the effects list
and say, "None of these are going to work." But the pattern is establish.
So he thinks maybe he ought to provide an effects list for his campaign
book, too.
The other thing he needs to provide is conversion information from more
general resources. That might be as simple as a list of which creatures
from the Bestiary are appropriate in the campaign, or it might be several
pages on how to changes specific types.
>What do you think?
Obviously, I'm all for it. The only other piece of the puzzle I can see
missing is a notation and framework--to make all the cross-referencing
easier. It doesn't really matter what it is--as long as SOMETHING is
adopted. Assuming the software pattern holds.
Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 22:44:23 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Killing vs Normal (was Re: Shapeshifting VPP)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Trevor Barrie writes:
>Trouble is, a Killing Attack will still do more STUN-after-defenses on
>average than a Normal Attack of the same DCs. (Unless your campaign has
>an unusually low defense-to-attack AP ratio.)
Well, the difference is fairly trivial, and is almost entirely due to the
rare combination of rolling a near-maximum for BODY and 5x for STUN.
Here is the complete comparison chart for DCs divisible by 3. The number
shown is the additional number of points of STUN done by a killing attack
over a normal attack of the same DC, for a given amount of defense/DC.
For a campaign-guideline attack, a DEF of 1/DC is very low, and only
appropriate to Martial Artists. A DEF of 2/DC is appropriate for high-CV
projectors and composite characters. A DEF of 3/DC is appropriate for
front-line combatants, and a DEF of 4/DC is appropriate only for the
brick-of-bricks. Higher DEF than 4/DC is functional invulnerability.
For attacks much smaller than campaign guidelines, DEF/DC could easily be
5, 6 or even higher.
Damage Class
DEF/DC 3 6 9 12 15
1 -0.97222 -2.13889 -3.30093 -4.46759 -5.63604
2 -0.06944 -0.41512 -0.76354 -1.1117 -1.4553
3 1.055556 1.984568 2.967145 3.967754 4.98876
4 1.5 2.771605 4.059738 5.344811 6.616203
5 1.263889 1.844136 2.342939 2.799826 3.251064
6 0.805556 0.925926 1.043981 1.125 1.190201
For low-DEF characters, Normal attacks have a slight advantage. For
characters with brick-level defenses, the Killing Attack has a very
slight advantage: around 1/3 of a point of STUN per damage class. For
characters with higher defenses (NPC hyper-bricks, or small attacks), the
Killing Attack's advantage drops down to the truly trivial.
While I agree that I would like the Killing Attack to do less STUN on
expectation than a Normal attack, I find that the difference above fails
to galvanize me. The extremely simple step of allowing the Resistant
Defense to count double against the stun of a Killing Attack would more
than solve the problem.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
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Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 22:55:43 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Police Portrayal in Campaigns/ Good and Bad cops
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Trevor Barrie wrote:
>
> On Tue, 26 May 1998, Robert A. West wrote:
>
> > ====================================================================
> > Case #5:
> >
> > The incident in Langley was covered up as a military plane crash. The
> > PCs sent an anonymous letter to the DCI, attempting to straighten out the
> > "Little misunderstanding in Langley,"
>
> The DCI had authority here? Man, WotC really is buying out everybody!:)
???
DCI = Director of Central Intelligence. It is a common but ignorant
error for reporters to refer to the office as "Director of the CIA". The
Director is responsible for coordinating the efforts of the various
intelligence agencies: CIA, DIA, DEA Intelligence, FBI Counter-
intelligence, etc.
Obviously, I am missing something?
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
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From: Pat10355@aol.com
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Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 02:45:29 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Military Weapon Designations
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Hi,
I'm working on a project in which I'm creating some futuristic military
weapons, such as lasers and gauss weapons, not to mention vehicles and other
gear.
I'm wondering how military designations, such as M-16 rifles and M1A1 Abrams
tanks, are assigned. Is there any kind of system or organization to this at
all?
If anyone with military experience or knowledge can give me some information
on this, I'd really appreciate it.
Thanks,
Patrick Sweeney
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Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Normals with Powers (change the subject once in a while, dammit!)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 17:26:28 +1000
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----------
> From: Robert A. West <robtwest@erols.com>
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: Re: Normals with Powers (change the subject once in a while,
dammit!)
> Date: Monday, June 01, 1998 6:50 AM
>
> happyelf wrote:
>
> > >
> > > Now, considering the fact that blue is the most subjectively intense
> > > color for most people, it seems perfectly reasonable that the "blue"
> > > cones will have a significant response into the near ultraviolet.
> > >
> >
> > like i said, a backwards dopler thing *l*.
>
> Confusion reigns: this has nothing whatsoever to do with a dopplar
> effect, so I am not sure what you are getting at.
>
I was half kidding. the other half involves my point about extrapolation.
Certain visible spectrum phenomena can be used to deduce the position of
ultraviolent light which rests near it. If someone is partly capable of
detecting ultraviolent light, then they would clearly depend on this
normally visible
spectrum to determine greater information about the ultravilent spectrum
they are less aquainted with.
> The retina works by photoreactive pigments. Pigments respond to light by
> absorption. The absorption cross-section always varies by frequency;
> for wavelengths of interest, this will have the approximate form
> exp[-(l-k)^2*s], where l is the wavelength being measured, k is the
> wavelength of the absorption peak and s is a sensitivity factor. I am
> ignoring amplitude, which is certainly part of the equation, but not of
> interest here, and leaving the result unnormalized.
>
> In a three color reception system, the pigments have absorption peaks of
> i<j<k. Assuming no attenuation from the optics and identical sensitivity
> factors, a wavelength of L will result in an ordered triplet that
> uniquely identifies the color:
>
> exp[-(L-i)^2*s]; exp[-(L-j)^2*s]; exp[-(L-k)^2*s]
>
> Successfully detecting colors with wavelengths < i is not only possible,
> but unavoidable. As we approach the upper limit of sensitivity, the
> triplets will start to look like (X,0,0), with X decreasing with
> increasing frequency. There is nothing "backwards" about this, and it
> certainly does not involve a Dopplar effect, which is the change in
> apparent wavelength with the relative velocity of the source and
> observer.
>
When used in terminology other that pure physics the doplar effect
related to the progression from one wavelength to another, as is
most easily displayed by the change seen over long distances.
The 'backwards' comment arises from your own point: the actual
dopler effect is caused externally, while the situation i suggest
involves an internal shift of perception based on preconcious
calculations inherent in sight and all sences. When the body
recieves abnormal stimuli our perception attempts to make sence of it.
> Note that a high sensitivity factor will allow fine color discrimination,
> but will narrow the useful range of the pigment. This is why a two-color
> system is inferior to a three-color system: if pigments with a high color
> sensitivity are used, the range of colors will be restricted; if pigments
> with a wide color range are used, color discrimination will be low.
>
>
> --
> <------------------------------------------------------->
> Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
> Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
> http://www.erols.com/robtwest
>
>
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Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 00:29:59 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Police Portrayal in Campaigns/ Good and Bad cops
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>
> Maybe you could run an alternate campaign, where the PCs are high-tech
> Federal agents who are assigned to deal with rogue supers.... ;-]
Oh! I forgot to mention that Jade Cobra has been spotted attempting to
break into a high-security defense installation before. That
installation was owned by a PC from my Philadelphia group of players.
This PC was in jail at the time awaiting trial on a triple homicide,
including counts of capital murder. The group's resident alien warrior
had blown up a police car with an autofire RPG during a high-speed chase.
The warrior was hiding out in the plant, which was locked down under the
auspices of the Office of Naval Intelligence. (The rich PC ultimately
burned over ten points in favors to get someone else framed for the
crime.)
Of course, Jade Cobra was in my Princeton group of players, which group
wanted to investigate this situation, which they were unaware involved a
PC. They discovered the alien warrior, who almost killed their
mentalist. Jade Cobra was actually there to rescue the mentalist.
I also neglected to mention another incident. The PCs from the Princeton
group were down in Arlington VA, investigating a physician on the staff
of a Middle Eastern Embassy, and hence with diplomatic immunity. While
using Clairsentience to explore his house at night, they set off an alarm
(the eye was visible to ultrasound). The PCs were in various cars (some
registered to their secret IDs): one across from the house, one watching
the eastern approach on the street and one watching the western approach.
When a 2-man B&W unit came to investigate the alarm, they almost
automatically spotted the two nearer of the cars. The slowed down to
check out the first one with their spotlight, and found a man in an
outlandish mask and costume trying to hide on the floor. At almost the
same moment, the car that was parked directly across the road from the
house began to move toward the police car. The police, in order,
1. Called for backup,
2. Moved their car so as to block both cars
3. Both officers got out of their car.
4. The one on the passenger side drew his service 9mm.
5. The driver pulled out the shotgun from between the seats.
6. The passenger-side officer ordered the PC out of the car.
7. The driver moved to place the cruiser between him and the
oncoming vehicle.
At this point, two players complained that the cops were acting like
geniuses; that there was no way that they would connect the two cars with
one another, nor either with the alarm. The PC in the parked car got out
and started running, with the officer in pursuit. At the same moment,
the PCs in the moving car created the illusion of automatic weapons fire
coming from the direction of the house.
The policeman who was chasing the suspect was already moving away from
the source of the fire, so continued the chase. The driver popped the
trunk, using the lid for cover, and got out the bullet-proof vests and
M-16s. (There was a story on 60 minutes a few weeks before, showing how
the Arlington Police got enough M-16s to have two per patrol car.) As he
prepared to dive for cover (expecting the oncoming car either to ram or
to drive by and shoot), the car pulled a bootleg turn and fled the other
direction.
The officer noted that the fire was coming from the near side of
the house (where the PCs carefully put it). Accordingly, the
shortest path out of the line of fire was to give chase. He hopped into
his car and gave chase, while maintaining as much cover as possible. He
also called in "Officer needs help; shots fired; partner in foot pursuit;
I am in vehicular pursuit." The PCs now made their car invisible, and
pulled off the road, which did confuse the officer. The PC on foot
eventually got room enough to spread his mechanical wings and take off.
Meanwhile, the car on the other end of the road quietly drove off, just
in time not to meet the backup that was coming in. In a few minutes, the
area was teaming with local police, SWAT, helicopters, embassy-hired
private security, FBI and a couple of State Department officials. A
headquarters was established in the park across from the house and a
cordon established around the area. By sheerest luck (a roll of 5 on
3D6) the location of the car was left as open ground.
The PCs continued their illusions, including masked men firing from
windows and the front door. Since the weapons did not seem to be very
well aimed (after all, they were just Images), the cops only returned
fire when they had a clear target that was obviously dangerous.
Unfortunately, the police line of fire included the space where the
invisible car was: fortunately, there were enough points left in the VPP
for an invisible force field around it.
Eventually, the PCs created the illusion that the masked men were wounded
and retreating into the house. They also left a trail of blood leading
to where they believed the doctor kept the secret stash of stolen weapons
that the PCs were looking for, so the doctor was eventually exposed and
declared persona non grata. Meanwhile, the PCs were at great pains to
extract themselves from the middle of things. The most important factor
in their success was that it was 4:00AM and I lacked the energy to
properly run things.
The two players continued to complain that the police had no reason to
use the park across the street as a command post, that the use of
helicopters was absurd, that the officer who chased them was acting in an
unusally courageous and prescient manner, that there was no reason to
chase the masked man in the car, and so on. They were adamant that there
was no way that the police would have noticed the license plate for
either car, since neither was doing anything suspicious.
Sigh!
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
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Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 00:34:16 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Double Points
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> At 07:19 PM 5/27/1998 -0500, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote:
> >I think all point costs (and experience) in Hero should be doubled.
>
> Actually, I've tried something like this. I've spent a period of time
> in which I worked with half-points, and even went down to one or two
> decimal places during character construction. I've been known to give out
> half experience points.
I give out half experience points fairly routinely. The only use of a
half-point is to be combined with another half-point. This gives me more
granularity without really complicating anything. Frankly, I see no
reason this could not be mentioned as an option in the book.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
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Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 00:41:33 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Lighter Characters (was Poll: Champions Dialogue #2.)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Robert A West writes:
>
> > One way I have seen this done is Flight, Only to offset mass(-1). The
> > amount of flight to use is 1" per point of STR required to lift the
> > amount of the density decrease.
>
> Interesting... since a character with 10" of Flight and a 60 Strength can
> carry a 100 ton object and fly at his full 10".
That is part of the limitation: you don't get that feature.
> I still think that, for the most part, being lighter is a disadvantage.
It depends. I can see your point, though.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
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Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: sci-fi terminology was Military Weapon Designations
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 18:23:56 +1000
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> Hi,
>
> I'm working on a project in which I'm creating some futuristic military
> weapons, such as lasers and gauss weapons, not to mention vehicles and
other
> gear.
>
> I'm wondering how military designations, such as M-16 rifles and M1A1
Abrams
> tanks, are assigned. Is there any kind of system or organization to this
at
> all?
>
> If anyone with military experience or knowledge can give me some
information
> on this, I'd really appreciate it.
>
> Thanks,
> Patrick Sweeney
Well. . i have no millitary experiance at all, but my guild is highly
involved with high-tech millitary psudojargon. I'll be putting up a wepons
list (with popup hero stats) on my webpage before i launch it. . here's a
few abreviations we use.
Measurements:
Round - just the normal .mm or .inch ammunition. Gauss weapons
(if your talking about super-pepperbox gauss which strips ammo from a
block and not railgun gauss)
are done this way, or in .lb for weight of ammunition block.
Charge - a measurement of the charge for energy weapons usually done in
gigavolts,
Volume- in cubic centimetres, used to flamethrowers and plasma weapons.
The idea is that the manufacturers put as much ammo in the gun as it can
fire
without melting.
A few abreviations, which have worked their way into character's slang.
HRMP- high recoil man portable: used to describe any gun which requires
superhuman strength to use,
but is difficult to use mounted on a vehicle.
SCGP- smart-chipped gyrojet pistol: used to describe any guided small arms.
VMDU - vehicle mounted demolition unit: anything like a subsonic cannon or
an emp generator which used a sustained non-balistic blast to level or
damage fortifications.
TSA- Target-specific Amunition: Any ammo concept-designed to take out a
particular foe.
RB- room broom: gauss weapons, autoshotguns, ect.
DDCA- Double Default Contigincy Amunition: Usually a large ceramic shell
with a time-delay explosive,
or a soft round laced with killer nanobots.
Some slang used by the PLAYERS:
HSDD- hyperbole-soaked death-dealer
BHPD- blatantly heinous plot device
TIVA- totally impenetrable villain armour.
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Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 06:53:19 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Reply-To: tbarrie@ibm.net
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: [Off-topic] Quick "Big Trouble in Little China" question
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Is this film supposed to start with Wang's girlfriend being abducted
from the airport? The copy I rented didn't have any opening credits
or anything, leading me to suspect something may have been chopped off
of the beginning.
(Reply via private e-mail, please)
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Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 06:54:55 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Sat, 30 May 1998, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
> >And you are supporting my argument indirectly. Until you mentioned it, I
> >wouldn't have thought of including AoE for large claws, even though I've
> >seen AoE used for similar things in the past. Or maybe it would have
> >eventually occurred to me. Either way, you saved me some time and made my
> >theoretical "claw" write up more interesting and complete.
>
> That's why I said you would leave things out when I made the challenge. :-)
> But that is an example. You would only include it in dinosaurs and
> Godzilla. Even dragons are too small for line attack claws.
Dragons are smaller than dinosaurs?
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Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 07:02:07 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll: Line of Sight
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Sat, 30 May 1998, John Lansford wrote:
> I guess you don't use Free Agent to read your messages, then.
Is that a joke? Your earlier comments based on the assumption that
people are going to be using one specific mail client?
> >If you were talking about Third Edition rules, you should have said so
> >up front.
>
> No one else has, yet they've been using 3rd Edition examples and rules
> descriptions.
I haven't seen any. Care to cite an example?
> >If you're willing to allow for the existence of exotic defenses to thwart
> >binocular-based attacks, why are you not willing to allow such defenses
> >for TV-based attacks?
>
> Someone in a crowd becomes visible when he makes an attack. Someone in
> their living room is not.
And what has being in a crowd to do with a mental sniper several blocks
away with a pair of binoculars?
> >Read the description of Mental Awareness. If the target of the attack
> >has mentalists watching for an attack, they'll be able to detect the
> >source of the attack, period.
>
> Can't do much about it, though. MA only lets someone become aware in a
> general sense of the use of a mental power. Only the one being
> attacked knows where it's coming from.
When I wrote "Read the description of Mental Awareness", I wasn't just
stringing random words together; it was an actual suggestion that you
read the thing. It explicitly states that the character with MA can
"see" the source of the mental power.
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Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 07:08:34 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Reply-To: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Killing vs Normal (was Re: Shapeshifting VPP)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Fri, 29 May 1998, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote:
> DC Killing Killing
> Range Avg
> ---- --------- ---------
> 4 2 - 35 11.25
> 8 3 - 75 22.50
These should be 12 and 24, respectively. The average STUN Multiple
is 2.666666..., not 2.5.
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Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 08:47:23 -0400
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: dive for cover question
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 01:24 AM 6/1/98 -0400, Firelynx16@aol.com wrote:
>I have always thought that when a character dove for cover that they ended up
>on the ground. If the dive for cover was an inch or two away, it might make
>sense that they just sidestepped or jumped, and could still be upright. But
>beyond that, I'm picturing heros diving full out, head first, to avoid some
>blast, or to interpose themselves between a bullet and an innocent bystander.
>Heros with Breakfall, or maybe Acrobatics might come out on their feet.
>
We use a Breakfall roll -- or if circumstances make it a difficult
task, then Acrobatics -- in addition to the DEX (Dive) roll.
====================== =================================================
Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
====================== =================================================
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Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 06:38:13 -0700
To: champ-l@omg.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Delayed Teleport...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 03:03 PM 5/31/1998 -0700, Robert A. West wrote:
>In my campaign, one character, named Portal, has this as a special effect
>of the extra phase when he does non-combat teleports. He takes a full
>action and disappears in phase 1 and reappears at the same DEX in phase
>2, having used a full action. Once started, the character has no way to
>stop the long-range teleport. This can be very convenient (he isn't
>there when the grenade goes off), or very inconvenient (a flamethrower
>just exploded, and his target hex is engulfed in fire; he was needed
>elsewhere, but was in transit; he failed to observe something vital
>because he wasn't anywhere). IMO, the advantages and disadvantages
>cancel out.
I've had a couple of teleporting characters with a similar effect, and I
agree with that last statement completely.
>If the interval is greater than one phase, I would give the Extra Time
>limitation, provided that the character has no control over when he comes
>back, and cannot affect the physical world. It would probably be abusive
>to take recoveries in transit.
I think I'd allow Post-12, but not regular Recoveries since he's
exerting effort to move (which, I think, is your intent in the above
paragraph).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 06:39:34 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: dive for cover question
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 01:24 AM 6/1/1998 EDT, Firelynx16@aol.com wrote:
>I have always thought that when a character dove for cover that they ended up
>on the ground. If the dive for cover was an inch or two away, it might make
>sense that they just sidestepped or jumped, and could still be upright. But
>beyond that, I'm picturing heros diving full out, head first, to avoid some
>blast, or to interpose themselves between a bullet and an innocent bystander.
>Heros with Breakfall, or maybe Acrobatics might come out on their feet.
>
>This came up in the game tonight, and it made me wonder. I couldn't find
>anything one way or the other in the book.
>
>How do y'all handle this?
Generally, if the character can make an Acrobatics or Breakfall roll at
-1 per inch moved, then he may land on his feet. Otherwise he's prone.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
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Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 06:49:27 -0700
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 10:34 PM 5/31/1998 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>At 07:26 AM 5/31/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>>I think an Ultimate Monster book ;-) would be very short on how and very
>>>long on examples of complete creatures. Of course, that would be a more
>>>late-90s name for the Beastiary.
>>
>> Don't be so sure. When I first mentioned TUSV to Steve Long, his
>>reaction was that he thought it would be a fairly thin book. Of course,
>>this was before he saw my manuscript for a book that promises to rival TUSM
>>for sheer size.
>
>I said "short on how" not "short in length". It will be a big book. (And
>TUSV sounds like a large book to me. Steve must not have really thought
>about it.)
What I was getting at, was that you may be thinking that one couldn't do
much on explaining the hows and whys of creature creation. Certainly the
authors of the first two editions of the Hero Bestiary didn't spend a lot
of space on it (Michael J. Susko Jr. gave it 9 pages in the first edition,
and Doug Tabb gave it 14 pages in the second), but another author could
probably come up with greater detail for a third edition, or an Ultimate
Beast tome.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 08:55:39 -0500
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net
Organization: GM's R US
To: Pat10355@aol.com
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Military Weapon Designations
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Pat10355@aol.com wrote:
> Hi,
> I'm working on a project in which I'm creating some futuristic military
> weapons, such as lasers and gauss weapons, not to mention vehicles and other
> gear.
> I'm wondering how military designations, such as M-16 rifles and M1A1 Abrams
> tanks, are assigned. Is there any kind of system or organization to this at
> all?
> If anyone with military experience or knowledge can give me some information
> on this, I'd really appreciate it.
I was in the U.S. Military for 5 1/2 years and how things become designated
such and such is dependendent on the item. Usually there are two factors that
decide how an item is designated. The purpose of the item and what company made
it.
For instance. In WWII troops where issued the M-1, starting in Vietnam they
were issued the M-16, and in between on a VERY LIMITED basis the M-14 was used.
A simple progression using the M-? as the designator for the main infantry troop
weapon.
The main sidearm up and untill a couple years ago was the .45 automatic
M1911. The 1911 stood for the year the Military first adopted the weapon.
Note that Prototypes, and sketeches are counted. The M1A1 Abrams battle tank
has been our main battle tank for a while know. I don't think the M1 was ever in
service that long, untill they upgraded it thus the M1A1 designation.
Aircraft designation is much easier. F-15, F-16, F-14. A simple progression
of numbers. The F stands for Fighter, A for Attack, E for Electronic Warfare, K
for Refueling, B for Bomber. This is why our next fighter is going to be the
F-22. Once again note the Prototypes ARE counted.
Note that how things are designated change and when they change everything
is given the new designation. For example up untill the 1960 era aircraft were
designated such as F4U. This was the 4th fighter design from the U company. Each
company was given a letter designator. I think U was for Grumman, but am not
sure.
How do they come up with Cosair, Falcon, Intruder and other names....A lot
of different ways. Sometimes it has stuff to do with History, I know the F-14
Tomcat was named because the Admiral who pushed for it so hard. The plane became
known as " Tom's cat" and it went from their. Ships have a long history of how
they are named. CV's (aircraft carries) are named after famous ships of the past
or Important people. Guided Missle Nuclear Cruisers(CGN) are named after States,
Regular Guided Missle cruisers(CG) after cities or famous ships.
Enemy weapons and equipment are given designators along the same lines as
this, usually with a nickname as well. The T-72 is a main battle tank of the old
Soviet Army. I don't know it's nickname, but I am sure it had one.
Hope
this helps.
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Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 07:12:42 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 11:01 PM 5/31/1998 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>At 07:20 AM 5/31/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>> That table would be a good start. Some of these will be 1/2 END (the
>>feline ones) while other will be 0 END. The Dragon's claws might have
>>Armor Piercing; a bearcat's (one you didn't include) would probably be
>>Penetrating.
>
>Why would a cat get 1/2 END for it's claws? That would make the strength
>addition so annoying to attach unless you buy the cat's STR with 1/2 END.
>Besides, none of the sample felines in FH have 1/2 END.
The 1/2 END is to represent the fact that the cat has to put some effort
into extending the claws, as opposed to most other animals (like dogs and
bears) whose claws are out all the time.
I frankly don't see what would be annoying about attaching STR -- and
certainly nothing that buying STR at 1/2 END would solve.
As for the felines in FH, the author was just not thinking along these
lines. In fact, I suspect that they were taken directly from the Hero
Bestiary.
>Bearcat: never heard of it.
I tried looking it up and couldn't find it. Once I can I'll post a
synopsis of what I know about this creature (including the correct name) to
the list, since I think it'd make a really cool character concept.
>> Even just given your table above, that can create a good standard.
>>"Tigora has the claws of a tiger." "Fine, that's 1d6 HKA, Reduced
>>Penetration. 12 points." It makes character construction much faster and
>>creates a standard that can stretch across campaigns, like the weapons
>charts.
>
>But you still have to write 1D6 HKA on the character sheet or else you'll
>have to refer to the chart while playing.
Yes, you'll still have to write it down. But at least the player and GM
didn't have to sit down and figure out for themselves the Reduced
Penetration, or the 1/2 END I'm recommending, or whether or not certain
other characteristics should be included (like AP) other than what might
have been added after the fact.
>> Even just given your table above, that can create a good standard.
>>"Tigora has the claws of a tiger." "Fine, that's 1d6 HKA, Reduced
>>Penetration. 12 points." It makes character construction much faster and
>>creates a standard that can stretch across campaigns, like the weapons
>charts.
>>[...]
>> You gave a couple of nice variations in your above list (Reduced
>>Penetration for most, straight for Gargoyle, AoE: Line for Godzilla). As I
>>pointed out with the bearcat and the suggestion for feline claws, there's
>>even more variation that can be had.
>
>But, it is not realistic. Why felines? Why not just call them Claws I and
>Claws II at that point? It's just as much a part of normal life as
>Shoulder Cannon II.
On the final table, they would probably be listed as different sizes of
"Retractable Claws" with maybe a couple of other specifics. The reason I
said feline in the above quote is because your table gave them as
"housecat" and "tiger," both of which are felines. (In point of fact, I
believe that there are a couple of non-feline creatures with retractable
claws, though I can't remember what they are offhand.)
As for this not being realistic, I sure don't see what's unrealistic
about it. A table of benchmarks for natural weapons is no less realistic
than one for artificial weapons, whether real (as in TUMA) or fictional (as
in TUSV).
>I made all of the normal creates Red.Pen. because Red.Pen. suggests it.
>Gargoyles are stone like so it didn't seem appropriate. Godzilla is huge
>and huge creature could have AoE line on a HKA. (I think I stole that from
>a Brick article: STR with AoE Hex, selective for easy Sweeps.)
And that's the way to do it. With the examples being asked for, though,
you wouldn't have to explain this every time it came up; it would already
be down in black and white for all to see.
>>[...] And having well-indexed tables showing and explaining how each of
>>these things are done (well, probably except for the size; that's pretty
>>straightforward) is a bit easier than trying to look up each creature,
>>seeing the listing there, at times having to reverse-engineer the creation,
>>and *then* getting it down.
>
>I would argue the HKA is equally straightforward but apparently I'm in the
>minority there.
I'm not sure what you're saying here.
>Actually, strong claws should not have AP as much as they should lose the
>Red.Pen. limitation. The claws would have to be spiked or something to
>include AP.
And that's one thing that you and I disagree on, that could be clarified
with such a book. To my mind, losing the Reduced Penetration should only
happen when the number of claws goes down from several to one. This leaves
AP and Penetrating as good for especially tough claws.
>>and since the GM has a standard to go by and can always throw Construct X
>>back at the character with another yada-yada on a moment's notice (thanks
>>to TUW), the whole thing runs a lot more smoothly. Secondarily, should the
>>player want to take that character to a convention, he can just tell the
>>GM, "I have a yada-yada with Construct X from TUW, is that OK?" rather than
>>having to list the whole Power with Advantages and Limitations and show his
>>math.
>
>So this theoretical GM knows Construct X from TUW and doesn't need the
>Power with Advantages and Limitations explained? (Not that TUW means
>anything to me.) He still needs the power, the character's STR to compare
>against his DC limit for his game.
The Ultimate Whatever (TUW) is what gives the Power, Advantages,
Limitations, and other information. The written examples serve to
standardize the methods.
To give a more concrete example with an existing work, suppose I'm
playing a ninja in a campaign with a new GM. I tell the GM that I want
kuji-kiri, as written in TUMA, page 96. The GM turns to page 96 of TUMA,
runs through the Multipower as written there, and either okays it, rejects
it, or tells me how to modify it. In any event, I didn't have to develop
it all on my own from the ground up; if the GM approves it as published,
all I have to do is write it out on my character sheet (or, if I don't mind
turning to TUMA page 96 every time I want it, I can just write in
"kuji-kiri" for 20 points -- assuming, of course, that I'm doing these by
hand, which I soon won't be doing).
---
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Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 09:14:27 -0500
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: Normals with Powers
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 04:36 PM 6/1/98 -0700, Kim Foster wrote:
>Isn't all this discussion about "normals" with powers a little, how to put
>it biased? The distinction between "normal" and "super" really only exists
>in one genre Superheroes. Aliens in sci-fi might regularly have "powers" but
>are normal beings in their specific world as mages might be in a high magic
>fantasy world.
That's not entirely true. "Normals" doen't actually exist in any genre, as
the term is derived from what is normal in OUR world. Aliens and mages might
be considered 'normal' in their worlds -- but unless HERO is getting
significantly more widespread sales than previously supposed, no aliens are
going to be playing this game. "Normal" is relative to the 'genre' *outside*
the game.
==
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
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Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 07:23:39 -0700
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Claws (was How Complicated is Champions?)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 12:39 AM 6/1/1998 -0500, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote:
>>For example:
>>The power HKA, O END, Reduced Pentration may be good to use for animal
>>claws, while HKA, O END, Area Effect Hex may be good for large monsters
>like
>>dragons or something. You find the KIND of power you want, then buy as
>many
>>DCs as you wish.
>
>This is actually how most of my own components currently look. I've been
>assuming lists because that is how weapons are presented. I suppose it is
>really an editorial decision, based on the amount of space and how
>complicated the table is. The one thing you do lose with a table is the
>host of specific example tied to a DC--depending on the component, that may
>or may not be a problem.
Basically, a reasonable range of DCs should be included.
Take the aforementioned Shoulder Cannon II example from TUSV. There are
actually four classes of Shoulder Cannon. SC-I does 3d6, SC-II does 4d6,
SC-III does 5d6, and SC-IV does 6d6. All of them are otherwise built
identically.
So where are the d6+1 and 1/2d6 steps? I didn't figure they'd be
needed. In dealing with military-level weapons -- especially fictional
ones -- it's more important to have a wide range than fine granularity, at
least IMO. So nearly all equipment is created with steps of 2-4 base DCs
(the only significant exception being arms for giant robots, as built using
TK).
For animal claws, there's a bit more granularity called for, since they
are somewhat more common (especially among animals) and are mostly at a
lower range, where a smaller amount of change can make a bigger difference.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 07:25:57 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Military Weapon Designations
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 02:45 AM 6/1/1998 EDT, Pat10355@aol.com wrote:
>I'm wondering how military designations, such as M-16 rifles and M1A1 Abrams
>tanks, are assigned. Is there any kind of system or organization to this at
>all?
This is something that, arguably, should go in TUSV as well (at least,
the part regarding vehicles).
---
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Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 07:38:11 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Lighter Characters (was Poll: Champions Dialogue #2.)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 04:49 PM 5/31/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>Bob Greenwade writes:
>
>>> Interesting... since a character with 10" of Flight and a 60 Strength
>>> can carry a 100 ton object and fly at his full 10".
>> I'm not sure what this has to do with Robert's post.
>
>Just that inches of Flight and mass of the flyer and what he is carrying
>have no relevance to each other. A 60 Strength character with 10" of
>flight can fly 10" per action whether he carries nothing or a 100 ton
>object, even if that character himself has a mass of 100 tons.
Robert wasn't directly tying together STR (either the character's own
STR, or STR in general) and Flying; he was using the STR required for a
certain task as a guideline for how much Flight should be used for
something similar.
---
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Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:03:57 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade
> To give a more concrete example with an existing work, suppose I'm
playing a ninja in a campaign with a new GM. I tell the GM that I want
kuji-kiri, as written in TUMA, page 96. The GM turns to page 96 of TUMA,
runs through the Multipower as written there, and either okays it, rejects
it, or tells me how to modify it. In any event, I didn't have to develop
it all on my own from the ground up; if the GM approves it as published,
all I have to do is write it out on my character sheet (or, if I don't mind
turning to TUMA page 96 every time I want it, I can just write in
"kuji-kiri" for 20 points -- assuming, of course, that I'm doing these by
hand, which I soon won't be doing).<
I'm with you on how having power lists can simplify things, make creation
faster, and provide a standard that all campaigns work from, but it seems
like this would be tough to sell to Hero players because one of their big
reasons for why Hero is better than the other games is because it doesn't
have just a list of powers. On the other hand, H4 already has lists for
guns, so another list for claws (or blades, or whatever) would be
essentially the same thing. I'm starting to get the mindset that the
flexibility of H4 is largely an academic concern...it seems great, but it
sounds so nice to be able to just pick stuff off a list and move on.
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: How Complicated Is Champions?
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 10:04:59 -0700
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> From: Bob Greenwade
>
>
<snip>
>
> That table would be a good start. Some of these will be 1/2 END (the
> feline ones) while other will be 0 END. The Dragon's claws might have
> Armor Piercing; a bearcat's (one you didn't include) would probably be
> Penetrating.
> (I may be confusing the bearcat for a different creature -- one whose
> claws are tough enough to rip through just about anything. I've seen one
> of these close up, at the West Coast Game Park Safari just outside Bandon,
> Oregon, and I seem to remember it being the bearcat, so that's what I'm
> going to call it for the rest of this post, and the rest of this discussion
> until someone corrects me.)
I wouldn't make the 'bearcat' with Penetrating claws, unless you want to claim they can
shred a bank vault door. Remember that Penetrating penetrates _anything_ that isn't
hardened, no matter what the DEF.
Additionally, you might want to remember what a 1d6 HKA w/o Reduced Penetration can do.
Given time, it will shred anything with an 11 DEF or lower, such as brick walls,
reenforced concrete, and safe doors.
Filksinger
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: How Complicated Is Champions?
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 10:05:02 -0700
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> From: Bob Greenwade
>
>
<snip>
>
> >Actually, strong claws should not have AP as much as they should lose the
> >Red.Pen. limitation. The claws would have to be spiked or something to
> >include AP.
>
> And that's one thing that you and I disagree on, that could be clarified
> with such a book. To my mind, losing the Reduced Penetration should only
> happen when the number of claws goes down from several to one. This leaves
> AP and Penetrating as good for especially tough claws.
I am afraid I don't understand. What do you see happening if you buy 1d6 HKA, AP, Reduced
Penetration? That's what it sounds like you are suggesting.
Filksinger
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Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 10:47:13 -0700
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: Claws (was How Complicated Is Champions?)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 10:05 AM 6/1/1998 -0700, Filksinger wrote:
>> From: Bob Greenwade
>> >Actually, strong claws should not have AP as much as they should lose the
>> >Red.Pen. limitation. The claws would have to be spiked or something to
>> >include AP.
>>
>> And that's one thing that you and I disagree on, that could be clarified
>> with such a book. To my mind, losing the Reduced Penetration should only
>> happen when the number of claws goes down from several to one. This leaves
>> AP and Penetrating as good for especially tough claws.
>
>I am afraid I don't understand. What do you see happening if you buy 1d6
HKA, AP, Reduced
>Penetration? That's what it sounds like you are suggesting.
The difference between 1d6 HKA, AP, RedPen and just straight 1d6 HKA are
subtle, but significant enough to make into a separate construct.
Used with STR, 1d6 HKA becomes 2d6 HKA. The average roll on 2d6 is 7;
with the average STUN Multiple of 2.667, average STUN for this attack is
about 19.
Now take that against someone with 5 DEF Armor. The straight HKA does 5
BODY and 14 STUN. The AP/RedPen version is split in two for purposes of
BODY, but the Armor is halved, so it becomes a 4 BODY attack and a 3 BODY
attack against 3 DEF, which does 1 BODY. The STUN just goes against half
the DEF, so it's 16 STUN in that case.
The attack, in a way, does have "less ability to penetrate defenses"
(the book's description of Reduced Penetration) because there are multiple
claws being used in the single attack. On the other hand, each individual
claw is especially tough and sharp, accounting for the AP.
---
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Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 11:38:07 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 05:20 PM 6/1/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
>Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
>Message text written by Bob Greenwade
>> To give a more concrete example with an existing work, suppose I'm
>playing a ninja in a campaign with a new GM. I tell the GM that I want
>kuji-kiri, as written in TUMA, page 96. The GM turns to page 96 of TUMA,
>runs through the Multipower as written there, and either okays it, rejects
>it, or tells me how to modify it. In any event, I didn't have to develop
>it all on my own from the ground up; if the GM approves it as published,
>all I have to do is write it out on my character sheet (or, if I don't mind
>turning to TUMA page 96 every time I want it, I can just write in
>"kuji-kiri" for 20 points -- assuming, of course, that I'm doing these by
>hand, which I soon won't be doing).<
>
>I'm with you on how having power lists can simplify things, make creation
>faster, and provide a standard that all campaigns work from, but it seems
>like this would be tough to sell to Hero players because one of their big
>reasons for why Hero is better than the other games is because it doesn't
>have just a list of powers. On the other hand, H4 already has lists for
>guns, so another list for claws (or blades, or whatever) would be
>essentially the same thing. I'm starting to get the mindset that the
>flexibility of H4 is largely an academic concern...it seems great, but it
>sounds so nice to be able to just pick stuff off a list and move on.
That last part is the crux of the thing, though -- Hero doesn't have
*just* a list of powers (by which, I take it, you mean SFX-based powers as
opposed to the game-effect-based Powers it does have a list of). A list of
SFX-based powers is a good thing, of course; that's the centerpiece of this
argument. In hero, though, there should and will always be ways of
modifying these powers so characters and their abilities can be customized.
---
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Normals with Powers (change the subject once in a while, dammit!)
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Robert A West writes:
>> Like I said, unusual, but not abnormal.
> Unusual? I thought that nearly everyone could hear the whine of a
> TV, a monitor or of a fluorescent lamp. Even I can still hear those!
30-60Hz is still above the low end of average, which is ~20Hz. Whether or
not you can hear it is more a matter of amplitude (volume) than frequency.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Lighter Characters (was Poll: Champions Dialogue #2.)
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 01 Jun 1998 16:20:21 -0400
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Robert A West writes:
>> Interesting... since a character with 10" of Flight and a 60 Strength
>> can carry a 100 ton object and fly at his full 10".
> That is part of the limitation: you don't get that feature.
Well, a limitation cannot (or at least should not) add mechanics to a
power, only take them away.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: dive for cover question
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Firelynx16 writes:
> I have always thought that when a character dove for cover that they
> ended up on the ground.
[etc-etc-etc]
So, what happens if you dive for cover straight up?
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
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Jeff M Reid writes:
> But wasn't that the point of the question? If the default method of using
> a weapon is one-handed, why is it a limitation to be able to use it
> either one-handed (at normal STR min) or two-handed (at a reduced STR
> min).
Ignore Strength Min, because that is *NOT* what the limitation is about.
The hands limitation means that sometimes or some characters will not be
able to use their off-hands for things like shields.
Say you've got a broadsword (Str Min 13), and a 16 Strength. Swinging it
with one hand means you do 1.5D6K; and you can use a shield. Swinging it
with two hands drops the Str Min to 11, which means you have 5 extra points
of Strength, which pushes your attack up to a 2D6K, which you might need
against a particular foe -- but you have no shield anymore, which lowers
your effective DCV. *THAT* is why the limitation.
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Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 15:31:51 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Normals with Powers
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 04:14 PM 6/1/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Robert A West writes:
>
>>> Like I said, unusual, but not abnormal.
>
>> Unusual? I thought that nearly everyone could hear the whine of a
>> TV, a monitor or of a fluorescent lamp. Even I can still hear those!
>
>30-60Hz is still above the low end of average, which is ~20Hz. Whether or
>not you can hear it is more a matter of amplitude (volume) than frequency.
The noise we're hearing is waaaaaaaaaaay above 30-60Hz. More like 25-30
MHz.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 16:36:44 -0700 (PDT)
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To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net>
Subject: Re: Normals with Powers
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Isn't all this discussion about "normals" with powers a little, how to put
it biased? The distinction between "normal" and "super" really only exists
in one genre Superheroes. Aliens in sci-fi might regularly have "powers" but
are normal beings in their specific world as mages might be in a high magic
fantasy world.
I know violence doesn't solve all problems...
But it sure feels good!
Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior
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Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 19:08:04 -0500
From: Tim Statler <tstatler@igateway.net>
Reply-To: tstatler@igateway.net
To: hero-l@sysabend.org, John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
Subject: Re: Bab 5 Hero: Races; Non-aligned worlds
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
John P Weatherman wrote:
>
> Tim Statler tstatler@igateway.net 5/31/98 11:03 AM
>
> >John P Weatherman wrote:
> >>
> >> Tim Statler tstatler@igateway.net 5/28/98 10:09 PM
> >>
> >> >PAK'MA'RA
> >> > Pow Def 5pts 5
> >>
> >> Huh? Seriously, what was this based on?
> >
> >The Pak'Ma'Ra are extremely resistant (or immune) to almost all poisons,
> >toxins, and diseases. (You try eating 3 day old carrion and see what
> >happens to you.) Hence the Power Def since most posions and diseases are
> >modeled by drains, etal.
>
> I can definantly see this. However the defence should be limited to
> natural diseases and poisons (YMMV, I'd try about a -1/4 in the B5
> universe,
> maybe even -0, but the limit does belong there).
I'm not sure if it should be there yet. But I'd call it a -0 and GM
judgement call.
>
> >> > Discriminatory Smell 5
> >> > +2 to smell perception rolls 4
> >>
> >> Given the very strong oder Pak'ma'ra extrude, this
> >> seems rather unlikely. As for the three das dead
> >> thing, more likely a special detect - food 3 days
> >> dead.
> >
> >I modeled their smell on that of a vulture. I Vulture can pick up the
> >odor of decay from over 5 miles away. The discriminatory is iffy but the
> >enhancment should stay.
>
> I can buy the +2 then, but I still think the desciminatory thing is a
> little odd. Of course, I've never head that vultures themselves smell
> any worse than any other bird, and we have heard the Pak'Ma'Ra stink
> to high heaven, which would under normal circumstances tend to interfear
> with smelling anything else. Course that +2 may well be to offset the
> penalties for very strong masking smells (themselves) in the area. :)
>
The Pak have a very strong odor but not that bad. Remember, Pak do sit
in council. I'm debating the Discrim yet. (If anyone else is reading
this I could use another opinion.)
> >> >DRAZI
> >> >increased chr max: STR 13/23 6
> >> > BDY 12/22 8
> >> > PD -/10 2
> >> >SUBTOTAL 16
> >> The drazi hurt the most to hit, so I'd make that leathery hide of theirs
> >> into very low grade PD armor, maybe even 4 points. Also, I'd give a
> >> Phych Lim for Drazi Social System (the whole green/purple thing) and maybe
> >> for their near constant enraged state, their worst than narn by a long
> >> shot.
> >
> >Garabaldi just said that Drazi hurt worse to hit than who ever attacked
> >him. From what I've seen I don't beleive rpd is inorder just a greater
> >overall def. The Green/purple thing is over for quite a few years now,
> >so no need. Their temper, hmmmmm (thinking mode.)
>
> I thought the green/purple thing was for 24 years (Ivonova thought hours
> but
> was orders of magnitude off). That would definantly make it an ongoing
> issue.
> As for the armor thing, I could see doing it either way. Still, almost
> all
> races use normal, cutting, bladed weapons, Drazi use punch daggers. This
> could be seen to indicate they needed something effectively armor peircing
> for good effect which would lead to the resistant conclusion. Just a
> though.
>
The same style Punch Dagger was used during human history. I think it
was a racial preference, because they did slash sideways with them.
I have to look up the Green/Purple. Ivanova solved the B5 problem by
marching the greens to be dyed purple. By the 5th season, it seemed to
be over. I don't remember when it starts up again.
Tim Statler
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Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 20:08:31 -0400
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: How Complicated is Champions? (LONG)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 12:39 AM 6/1/98 -0400, Grant Enfield wrote:
>I've been following this discussion, and it's been pretty interesting.
>
>I was with you all who wanted to build lists of powers until the last few
>sends. The idea of a table for "claws" with kitty-cat claws, small angry
>tiger claws, large dragon claws, Godzilla claws, etc. doesn't seem to be of
>much use to me.
Someone agrees with me!!! Thank you, Grant.
>A table, on the other hand, that had examples of many ways to build claws
>with the point costs per Damage Class would appear much more useful to me.
>You could have examples of claws built with Reduced Penetration, Armor
>Piercing, or whatever and examples of the types of things those powers may
>be useful with.
This almost has merit. I don't understand the need for it. But it doesn't
offend me as much as Tiger Claws.
>For example:
>The power HKA, O END, Reduced Pentration may be good to use for animal
>claws, while HKA, O END, Area Effect Hex may be good for large monsters like
>dragons or something. You find the KIND of power you want, then buy as many
>DCs as you wish.
Where was I when animals with 0 END claws became popular? But anyway, the
above is half of the two paragraphs which I claimed are all that is
necessary for "Claws" in such a book.
>Another, similarly useful list may be of NND special effects and the
>"reasonably common" defenses for them. Standardizing some of these powers
>and defenses would be very helpful.
>
>This brings up another issue:
>The list of NNDs and defenses would, of course, be campaign specific. An
>NND with hardened mental defense and the like for its defenses wouldn't be
>allowed in a campaign without mental powers or would have to prescribe other
>defenses.
I was about to pounce on the first part when you disclaimed it in the
second part. You cannot create a list of special effects without being
campaign specific. I would hate to even see this as an example in anything
resembling an official set of special effects. Someone at a con would
claim that it's the ONLY way to do things.
>I believe these lists of powers-as-special-effects, or "components," as
>Steven Mitchell has called them, are actually the "components" for specific
>campaigns. I would be interested in seeing HERO publish campaign books.
>Doesn't GURPS have a zillion books for every possible camapign?
Nah, only hundreds. :-) While this would be nice, someone still has to do
the writing and editing and layout and then you have to get people to buy
them. Post your campaign to a web site. It would be more effective. And
it would be a resource that you know your players would be able to get to.
("Why didn't you check the web site?" needles the GM.)
Joe
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: dive for cover question
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 19:23:32 -0500
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Stainless Steel Rat writes:
>Firelynx16 writes:
>> I have always thought that when a character dove for cover that they
>> ended up on the ground.
>[etc-etc-etc]
>So, what happens if you dive for cover straight up?
What goes up, must come down. Then the character needs a breakfall or
acrobatics roll to land on his feet. Whoops--forget there are probably a
bunch of flying and gliding characters out there. :-)
Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 20:28:03 -0400
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 06:54 AM 6/1/98 -0300, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>On Sat, 30 May 1998, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>> But that is an example. You would only include it in dinosaurs and
>> Godzilla. Even dragons are too small for line attack claws.
>
>Dragons are smaller than dinosaurs?
Godzilla is not a dinosaur. He is usually called hundreds of feet tall.
Dragons are usually tens of feet long. (Based on my extensive AD&D
background. :-) Maybe I was wrong with dinos, especially since I don't
think there were any long armed dinosaurs. (This is opinion. It has no
basis in reality. Afterall, I'm comparing Dragons and Atomic Monsters. :-)
Joe
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 19:40:29 -0500
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Stainless Steel Rat writes:
>Ignore Strength Min, because that is *NOT* what the limitation is about.
>The hands limitation means that sometimes or some characters will not be
>able to use their off-hands for things like shields.
But the STR min is critical for final damage, as you show below.
>Say you've got a broadsword (Str Min 13), and a 16 Strength. Swinging it
>with one hand means you do 1.5D6K; and you can use a shield. Swinging it
>with two hands drops the Str Min to 11, which means you have 5 extra
points
>of Strength, which pushes your attack up to a 2D6K, which you might need
>against a particular foe -- but you have no shield anymore, which lowers
>your effective DCV. *THAT* is why the limitation.
So for a -1/4, the character gets the OPTION to do +1 DC for only 3 STR
over the normal STR required--albeit with some limits attached. Sounds
like a benefit to me. It certainly isn't a limitation.
Gee, I thought you would be on the other side of this issue, of all people.
I was expecting a reference to the big, bold type in HSR, p. 100: "A
limitation that doesn't limit the character isn't worth any bonus!" :-)
I suspect your earlier response was probably (historically) more correct.
Whoever came up with this decided 2 handed was a -1/2 limitation. When
someone suggested 1.5 handed weapons, that naturally sounded like it
belonged in the middle.
Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 18:15:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dale Ward <daleaward@rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: Normals with Powers
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Greetings,
---Kim Foster wrote:
>
> Isn't all this discussion about "normals" with powers a little, how to put
> it biased? The distinction between "normal" and "super" really only exists
> in one genre Superheroes. Aliens in sci-fi might regularly have "powers" but
> are normal beings in their specific world as mages might be in a high magic
> fantasy world.
>
Here's a nifty notion. Rather than calling them "supers", let's go
the politically-correct route.
We'll call them "physical and/or mental overachievers".
Dale A. Ward
[Did Somebody Say BLOW UP McDonald's?]
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
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Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 18:18:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dale Ward <daleaward@rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: Military Weapon Designations
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
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X-UID: 3
Greetings,
---bobby farris wrote:
>
> How do they come up with Cosair, Falcon, Intruder and other names....A lot
> of different ways. Sometimes it has stuff to do with History, I know the F-14
> Tomcat was named because the Admiral who pushed for it so hard. The plane
became
> known as " Tom's cat" and it went from their. Ships have a long history of how
> they are named. CV's (aircraft carries) are named after famous ships of the
past
> or Important people. Guided Missle Nuclear Cruisers(CGN) are named after
States,
> Regular Guided Missle cruisers(CG) after cities or famous ships.
>
I thought they had a Madison Ave. PR corp. on retainer to come up with
all the neato-keen nicknames.
For instance, SCUD and Patriot missiles... basically, the same thing.
BUT, the Patriot is OURS (Yay!!) while the SCUD is THEIRS (Boo!!)
It's all just PR.
Dale A. Ward
[Did Somebody Say *BLOW UP* McDonald's?]
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
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Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 21:47:55 -0400
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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At 07:12 AM 6/1/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 11:01 PM 5/31/1998 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>>At 07:20 AM 5/31/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>> That table would be a good start. Some of these will be 1/2 END (the
>>>feline ones) while other will be 0 END. The Dragon's claws might have
>>>Armor Piercing; a bearcat's (one you didn't include) would probably be
>>>Penetrating.
>>
>>Why would a cat get 1/2 END for it's claws? That would make the strength
>>addition so annoying to attach unless you buy the cat's STR with 1/2 END.
>>Besides, none of the sample felines in FH have 1/2 END.
>
> The 1/2 END is to represent the fact that the cat has to put some effort
>into extending the claws, as opposed to most other animals (like dogs and
>bears) whose claws are out all the time.
WHAT?!? What does extended/retracted claws have to do with END usage on a
Killing Attack? The cat still rears back and attacks. The claws move
through the air and cause damage. How is this different than a bite or a
punch? None of the natural creatures in the FH list have 1/2 or 0 END on
their attacks.
> I frankly don't see what would be annoying about attaching STR -- and
>certainly nothing that buying STR at 1/2 END would solve.
15 STR cat, with 1D6 HKA 1/2 END claws. How much damage does it do? Let's
see the base power is 19 Active with 3 DCs so that's 6.3pts/DC so 15 STR
can only add 2 DCs or a 1.5D6 attack. (p.158 Determing Damage) That's why
it would be annoying.
> Yes, you'll still have to write it down. But at least the player and GM
>didn't have to sit down and figure out for themselves the Reduced
>Penetration, or the 1/2 END I'm recommending, or whether or not certain
>other characteristics should be included (like AP) other than what might
>have been added after the fact.
I still don't see how this is faster. Most players are going to say, "I
want claws, what's the campaign max DCs? 12? Okay, then 4D6 HKA. I'll
call them supertiger claws." Maybe my players are too vicious.
>>I made all of the normal creates Red.Pen. because Red.Pen. suggests it.
>>Gargoyles are stone like so it didn't seem appropriate. Godzilla is huge
>>and huge creature could have AoE line on a HKA. (I think I stole that from
>>a Brick article: STR with AoE Hex, selective for easy Sweeps.)
>
> And that's the way to do it. With the examples being asked for, though,
>you wouldn't have to explain this every time it came up; it would already
>be down in black and white for all to see.
Yes, you would have to explain it. You would still need the paragraph
which explains why. How is so meaningless compared to why. A list with
"Bear claws" in it is meaningless. Players will, on the mean, wish to be
stronger than the average bear. (Hey, Booboo. :-)
>>>[...] And having well-indexed tables showing and explaining how each of
>>>these things are done (well, probably except for the size; that's pretty
>>>straightforward) is a bit easier than trying to look up each creature,
>>>seeing the listing there, at times having to reverse-engineer the creation,
>>>and *then* getting it down.
>>
>>I would argue the HKA is equally straightforward but apparently I'm in the
>>minority there.
>
> I'm not sure what you're saying here.
I'm saying anyone who can read the rules will figure out that Claws are
made with HKA. And when they glance at the lion and tiger and bear and
horse etc in the creature list with Reduced Penetration, they'll look at
that entry in the rulebook and it will suggest it for natural attacks. I
assume that people have brains and read the rules. If that assumption is
false, then your lists are not useful either.
I know. I know. I'm focusing on claws too much. But the same could be said
for bites (HKAs), tail sweeps (HAs), rear kicks (HAs), wings (Flight, can
be fowled, or Gliding). About the only section that I would say should be
well explained and expanded on would be poisons.
>>Actually, strong claws should not have AP as much as they should lose the
>>Red.Pen. limitation. The claws would have to be spiked or something to
>>include AP.
>
> And that's one thing that you and I disagree on, that could be clarified
>with such a book. To my mind, losing the Reduced Penetration should only
>happen when the number of claws goes down from several to one. This leaves
>AP and Penetrating as good for especially tough claws.
I would reserve them for claws with sharp studs or spines. Cats and bears
and other normal creatures are not going to have AP or Penetrating. I
removed Red.Pen. from Gargoyle because they are made of stone.
>The written examples serve to
>standardize the methods.
> To give a more concrete example with an existing work, suppose I'm
>playing a ninja in a campaign with a new GM. I tell the GM that I want
>kuji-kiri, as written in TUMA, page 96. The GM turns to page 96 of TUMA,
>runs through the Multipower as written there, and either okays it, rejects
>it, or tells me how to modify it. In any event, I didn't have to develop
>it all on my own from the ground up; if the GM approves it as published,
>all I have to do is write it out on my character sheet (or, if I don't mind
>turning to TUMA page 96 every time I want it, I can just write in
>"kuji-kiri" for 20 points -- assuming, of course, that I'm doing these by
>hand, which I soon won't be doing).
There is a big difference between kuji-kiri and claws. Claws have a base
power and a limitation and maybe an advantage. There's nothing else to it.
I think my problem with this is the lack of creativity in just looking at
some lists. You may have noticed I like to join the rule discussions on
the list. They are part of the reason I use the game. :-)
Joe
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Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 21:48:15 -0400
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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
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At 06:49 AM 6/1/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>>At 10:34 PM 5/31/1998 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>>>>I think an Ultimate Monster book ;-) would be very short on how and very
>>>>long on examples of complete creatures. Of course, that would be a more
>>>>late-90s name for the Beastiary.
> What I was getting at, was that you may be thinking that one couldn't do
>much on explaining the hows and whys of creature creation. Certainly the
>authors of the first two editions of the Hero Bestiary didn't spend a lot
>of space on it (Michael J. Susko Jr. gave it 9 pages in the first edition,
>and Doug Tabb gave it 14 pages in the second), but another author could
>probably come up with greater detail for a third edition, or an Ultimate
>Beast tome.
You are right. I am thinking that you couldn't do much explaining the hows
and why of creature creation and not write dreck. I've never looked at the
beastiaries so I don't know what Susko and Tabb wrote but I cannot imagine
a lot more text 14-16 pages. 32 pages would be far too much. How much can
you say about claws without padding it unnecessarily? I prefer terse writing.
Joe
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net>
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Subject: Re: How Complicated is Champions? (LONG)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 21:15:34 -0500
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Joe Mucchiello writes:
>snip< >You cannot create a list of special effects without being
>campaign specific. I would hate to even see this as an example in
anything
>resembling an official set of special effects. Someone at a con would
>claim that it's the ONLY way to do things.
And I would tell them to get a life. We're playing Hero, not chess. (What
is this phobia about pushy people at Cons? :-) I've always advertised that
my
game was non-standard and never had any trouble--albeit with limited Con
experience.)
>>I believe these lists of powers-as-special-effects, or "components," as
>>Steven Mitchell has called them, are actually the "components" for
specific
>>campaigns. I would be interested in seeing HERO publish campaign books.
>>Doesn't GURPS have a zillion books for every possible camapign?
>Nah, only hundreds. :-) While this would be nice, someone still has to
do
>the writing and editing and layout and then you have to get people to buy
>them. Post your campaign to a web site. It would be more effective. And
>it would be a resource that you know your players would be able to get to.
>("Why didn't you check the web site?" needles the GM.)
Last I heard, GURPs books where selling fairly well--maybe not every one of
them, but as a collection.
Joe, It seems to me that all of your objections are basically editorial
ones. How useful it is COMPARED to how much space it takes? What media is
best? What else could Hero do, instead? Hero is going to publish
something.
Your other objection seems to be a fixation on size. I'll say it again.
All size quotes are just for purpose of visualization. A component might
be 2 paragraphs or 2 pages--depending on a ton of factors. Key point: But
if it is a valid component--it will ultimately take less space than
constantly repeating it. See below for why.
Also, If you will recall, I said from the start that components mostly
belonged in smaller "books" or even "modules." That is precisely because
EVERY componenent will be completely useless to SOME people. You obviously
don't need claws. I don't need vehicle parts. It's only after something
becomes extremely popular or useful that it deserves promotion to a "core"
rules book.
Web site, disk, database, book, scratched on a stone with flint rock--I
don't really care--it's an editorial decision. (By "editorial", I mean the
role of editor, whether performed by an actual editor, an author policing
himself, or whomever.)
You also seem to think that the fact that one needs to list HKA, AP, and so
one on the actual character sheet somehow invalidates the component idea.
I think there is some confusion about the role and content of a component.
Another way of looking at a compoent is as a communication bridge between
design and play (i.e. "use"). By the very nature of separation of duties,
there is some repetition, because a component implies 3 distinct
activities: Designing it, making it available, and using it.
Component design: Typical claws. Built on HKA, often with reduced
penetration -1/4. Some use AP. Explanation of why some GM's will use AP
to simulate claws. Explanation of why some will not. Using Red pen and AP
together. Why or why not you might want to do this. When to use AoE and
what is simulates for a claw. Reference to poisons, and how claws might
interact with them. (Note that the whole discussion provides actual
numbers, and where practical, an example of the construct.)
Providing the Components: List of claws. Or table which allows custom
claws, followed by a list of appropriate levels for certain creatures. Or
a program which builds the actual example for you, based on the design
information. The important thing is that the user can relatively (compared
to the design) quickly scan the available options, without worrying much
(if any) about calculations. The user certainly doesn't need to know how to
calculate active from base, or real from active--so he doesn't care about
the actual values of those things--just whether they are there are not.
(Just like weapons. If you see "AP" in the notes, you only care how it
works. The cost only mattered when doing the design. All those plusses
and minuses really make Hero LOOK complicated.)
Using it: GM or player writes down a particular claw. You need the DC,
and advantages, but at most, you only need the real cost (and that only for
a player, or a GM fussy about balancing his creatures.)
So, by doing this, we've isolated the design from the guy who could care
less about design--yet we've preserved the design for those who do care,
like maybe the guy's GM. This takes far more space that a single example
of a Claw, but it takes far less space (both actual page space, bytes, or
just "mental clutter" in a listing) when used for something reasonably
common. Maybe you're right about claws in particular. Maybe Dave or
someone else writes them up, and the listing is just too long for what it
provides. I don't think so, but we cannot really know for sure without
trying it.
Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net>
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Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 21:25:48 -0500
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If "components" is too much of a software term for Hero, just use the good
ole Anglo-Saxon word, "parts." That's what they are. We'd probably have
to call them Hero Parts (TM), though. :-)
Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Normals with Powers
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Bob Greenwade writes:
> The noise we're hearing is waaaaaaaaaaay above 30-60Hz. More like 25-30
> MHz.
Okay, while I might be confused, I think you are, too. Try 25-30KHz, not
MHz (25MHz is, well, radio).
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 21:52:30 -0500
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Joe Mucchiello writes:
<snip> I am thinking that you couldn't do much explaining the hows
>and why of creature creation and not write dreck. I've never looked at
the
>beastiaries so I don't know what Susko and Tabb wrote but I cannot imagine
>a lot more text 14-16 pages. 32 pages would be far too much. How much
can
>you say about claws without padding it unnecessarily? I prefer terse
writing.
I prefer terse writing, also. (And if that surprises you based on by posts
to the list--remember I said I prefer it, not that I'm good at it off the
cuff.) Preferring terse is why I like A better than B--on an actual
creature listing.
A: Claw, DC 3, rdcd pen.
B: Claw. HKA 1d6 (15 base), rdcd pen -1/4, 15 Active, 12 Real.
But I want B, or its equivalent, listed somewhere, in case I want to modify
the claw. Yes, I know this isn't much of a difference, and that the base
and active are redundant (but they aren't always), and that the real is
probably listed on the left in a table of the creature's powers. But
repeat it over and over in 192 pages, it adds up. And some of the other
potential Hero Parts in the Bestiary have a much greater difference.
I do have the Bestiary. If you took every good candidate for a Hero Part
represented in the book, made it a component, stuck it in the front,
expanded and extrapolated a bit to cover the holes--32 pages might not be
enough. Also, you could put more creatures in the remaining 160 than are
currently represented AND make the listing easier to read.
Melinda and Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
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Joe Mucchiello writes:
>> Dragons are smaller than dinosaurs?
> Godzilla is not a dinosaur.
Actually, he is. In the 1985-'95 Godzilla movies, it is revealed that he
is a previously undiscovered species living on Lagos Island in the South
Pacific, very close to Bikini Atol (he is retroactively credited with the
elimination of a US Army unit -- he ate them).
> He is usually called hundreds of feet tall.
400 or so.
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net>
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Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 22:08:41 -0500
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I've simply got to drop out of this discussion until Sunday. My wife's
over here asking, "you are going to have the adventure ready by Saturday,
aren't you." And gee, I could do both, but I'm using a bought adventure.
See, it's got several creatures in it that I've got to convert into Hero
terms. And I've got to design them all myself, more or less from scratch.
(Or find something similar powers in my various Hero books, figure out how
they were designed, allow for inconsistency, then modify to my campaign.
On second thought, scratch is definitely the way to go.)
Joe, that sharp pain in your back isn't a knife wound--it's a claw, AP, +1
STUN, + poison. Quick, use some of your unlimited "GM points" and write
yourself a healing aid linked to a dispel against poison. :-)
Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@early.com>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 00:04:21 -0400
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> On Sun, 31 May 1998, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote:
>
> > (This may have been answered long ago, but I cannot find it anywhere.)
> >
> > Does it bother anyone else that the 1.5 Handed -1/4 limitation does not
> > appear to limit in any way?
(rest of question snipped)
Michael Surbrook replied:
> A number of people in my local gaming group (myself included) did not like
> the weapons rules given in FH, NH and UMA. We felt that the STR min and
> damage values for the weapons were unrealistic. So, we rewrote the
> weapons (all of them). Among the changes were lowered STR Mins, lowered
> damage and removal of the +1 OCV mod for many weapons. The results are on
> my website in the Hero Source section.
I rewrote nearly all the FH and NH weapons as well, to give them more
reasonable STR minima and somewhat different damage effects, though my
results differ from Michael's for certain weapons. Michael and I debated
various such changes several months ago. Michael's revised weapons are
well worth checking out.
> > I wonder if it shouldn't be this way: 1.5 Handed as normal, except the
> > weapon can be used at the stated values with 2 hands. The owner can
wield
> > the weapon with 1 hand at STR min + 2.
>
> We upped it to +3 STR for 1-handed use. (or, -3 STR for two-handed use).
>
> > That would suggest that a wielder of a 2 handed weapon could use it in 1
> > hand at STR min + 5. (Double the required STR sounds about right to me
for
> > 1 handed use.)
I don't see 1.5-handed as a limitation the way 2-handed should be.
1.5-handed is a feature of the weapon that provides an option to its use,
and is usually but a variation of a 1-handed weapon, not a limitation to
how it must be used. The difference between a 1-handed longsword and a
1.5-handed bastard sword is not always clear-cut--there is always a degree
of variation in blade and handgrip lengths of weapons that can be classed
together for game purposes.
For 1.5-handed weapons, I view the STR Min as applicable for 1-handed use.
If a wielder who meets this Min chooses to swing it with 2-hands,
forgoing the use of a shield or secondary weapon in the off-hand, the
weapon's DC increases by one for the extra STR put behind the swing or
thrust. That's a trade-off available to anyone strong enough to wield the
weapon 1-handed. I'd rather simply add to the base damage then worry
about the changes in STR Min breakpoints caused by a -2 or -3 STR Min
reduction.
For those rare occasions when a character who isn't strong enough to wield
a weapon 1-handed effectively and who grips it with both hands to
compensate--perhaps because of a STR Drain--I'd reduce the STR Min by -3.
I wouldn't let a 5 STR character wield in both hands a sword with a 10 STR
Min at base damage and no CV penalty, but I'd let a 7 or 8 STR character
do so.
> No. That falls apart at higher levels. You don't have to be *that*
> strong to use a bastard sword one-handed. This can also lead to more STR
> inflation.
No common melee weapon should have a STR Min higher than 13. I treat a
longsword and a basic bastard sword as both having a 10 STR Min, a heavier
and longer 1.5-handed war sword a 12 STR Min, and a 2-handed great sword a
13 STR Min.
> > Of course, then you also have the questions about weapon length, balance,
> > and the height of the wielder. Somehow I cannot see a 23 STR human using
a
> > halberd 1 handed, but a 15 STR human wielding a medium spear 1 handed
does
> > not sound unreasonable--wouldn't he just hold the haft in a different
> > place?
>
> No one could ever use a halberd one-handed regradless of how strong oyu
> are. The weapon is anywhere from 7' to 9' long and is used like an axe,
> you need two hands to simply hold it properly, not to mention swing it. A
> spear can be used one-handed, but only to stab and thrust (the Norse did
> this, combining spear and sheild. The Greeks and Romans did it as well.)
>
> You would usually hold the weapon in an over-hand (over the shoulder) grip
> and thrust with it.
>
> There are many weapons that cannot be used one-handed, regardless of
> strength. The actual length of the weapon is usally the deciding
> factor.
On the mark. Not even Conan could wield a 20' pike like a 1-handed
stabbing spear.
Len Carpenter
redlion@early.com
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From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
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> Ignore Strength Min, because that is *NOT* what the limitation is about.
It may not be what the limitation is "about" (whatever that means), but
it's a part of it. It is impossible to talk about the merits of the "1
1/2-Handed" Limitation without mentioning STR Min. It's too intrinsically
connected to the effect of a 1 1/2-Handed weapon to ignore.
A weapon that is one-handed (the default) can be used normally (i.e. at the
stated STR Min). Adding the "1 1/2-Handed" Limitation (-1/4) reduces the
cost slightly and results in a weapon that can still be used one-handed at
the exact same STR Min; in addition, you may >opt< to use it two-handed for
a little extra oomph. Thus, the "1 1/2-Handed" Limitation in no way limits
the weapon (not one bit...not even a little), and in fact increases the
options that the wielder possesses. So where's the limitation?
> The hands limitation means that sometimes or some characters will not be
> able to use their off-hands for things like shields.
No, it means they may >opt< not to use their off-hands for other things, in
order to get that little extra kick from the weapon, but at no time will
they ever "not be able" to use a shield. It's entirely the choice of the
character in question.
>
> Say you've got a broadsword (Str Min 13), and a 16 Strength. Swinging it
> with one hand means you do 1.5D6K; and you can use a shield. Swinging it
> with two hands drops the Str Min to 11, which means you have 5 extra
points
> of Strength, which pushes your attack up to a 2D6K, which you might need
> against a particular foe -- but you have no shield anymore, which lowers
> your effective DCV. *THAT* is why the limitation.
I assume you mean a bastard sword. Again, it sounds like you are getting an
advantage (the ability to do a little extra damage) for a limitation (the
inability to use a shield). Debatably, the two factors should cancel each
other out so that 1 1/2-handed should be the default. If a weapon is
one-handed, you lose the ability to gain that extra little bit of damage,
and if it's two-handed, you lose the ability to use a shield.
Compare the bastard sword to the francisca (under axes) -- both have the
same STR Min (13) and both do the same amount of damage (1 1/2d6 HKA),
except that the francisca is a one-handed weapon and the bastard sword is a
1 1/2-handed weapon. Thus, the bastard sword would get the -1/4 limitation,
while the francisca would not. Your hypothetical STR 16 character can use
either weapon one-handed, to exactly the same effect. But that fighter
could, if he so chose, throw down his shield and grip the sword with both
hands for an additional 1 Damage Class. The francisca (the "non-limited"
weapon) does not offer this option.
Jeff Reid
Morfhis@compuserve.com
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm
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Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 22:13:15 -0700
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com>
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com
Organization: None
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
CC: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> GAZZA writes:
>
> > Running up buildings -
>
> This is a special effect, not a Power.
>
> [...]
>
> > Tough skin (as in "bounces bullets") -
>
> Again, this is a special effect.
>
> Yes, there is frequently more than one way to simulate a particular special
> effect. But that is a different kettle of fish from using one power to
> simulate another power.
>
>
If I could bounce bullets off my chest and Run up walls people would not look at
me and say "Gee that guy has special effects!" Now sure, you can't use clinging
to simulate flight, but you clould use flight to simulate running, or clinging
for that matter. So I don't see where your point is coming from.
Chad
(sorry I jumped in on this late I was away for the weekend)
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Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 01:16:41 -0400
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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> No common melee weapon should have a STR Min higher than 13. I treat a
> longsword and a basic bastard sword as both having a 10 STR Min, a
heavier
> and longer 1.5-handed war sword a 12 STR Min, and a 2-handed great sword
a
> 13 STR Min.
I'm worried here that you might be falling into a trap I've seen others
fall into (please correct me if I'm wrong), namely assuming that if a
character doesn't meet the STR Min for a weapon, he can not use that weapon
at all. In fact, I've even known some people to assume that the STR Min is
the STR required to even >lift< the weapon, which is of course absurd.
("Hmmm, looks like that broad sword weighs about 300 lbs...").
Remember that if a character falls below the STR Min, he can still use the
weapon, but at reduced effect. Under "Explanation of Terms for Melee
Weapons," (HSR, pg 203), the listing for STR Min says, "For STR Min, see
above." referring to the listing under the Ranged Weapons chart. This
implies that the guidelines given for STR Min under the Ranged Weapons
chart should be used for melee weapons as well.
That listing reads describes STR Min as "the minimum amount of STR
necessary to FULLY control (emphasis mine) the weapon when firing." (note:
in this case, read "firing" as "striking").
It continues, "If the character has less STR than the STR Min, he takes -1
OCV when firing for every 5 STR his STR is below the STR Min. The character
also takes 1d6 normal damage for every 10 points the STR Min exceeds the
character's STR." (I'm assuming the character's PD applies to that...)
If you apply these guidelines to the melee weapons, then the listed STR
Mins don't seem too off the mark; a STR 13 character CAN use a great sword,
albeit at -1 OCV, and even a STR 8 character can use it, although he would
receive 1d6 of damage with each swing, in addition to the -2 OCV. Of
course, such puny characters could never add any STR to the base damage of
the sword.
Jeff Reid
Morfhis@compuserve.com
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm
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Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 23:16:59 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Delayed Teleport...
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> At 03:03 PM 5/31/1998 -0700, Robert A. West wrote:
> >If the interval is greater than one phase, I would give the Extra Time
> >limitation, provided that the character has no control over when he comes
> >back, and cannot affect the physical world. It would probably be abusive
> >to take recoveries in transit.
>
> I think I'd allow Post-12, but not regular Recoveries since he's
> exerting effort to move (which, I think, is your intent in the above
> paragraph).
Your surmise is correct: I don't think of the post-12 recovery as
something that one "takes" -- it is automatic unless one is holding one's
breath, unable to breathe or deeply unconscious.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
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Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 23:31:58 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Lighter Characters (was Poll: Champions Dialogue #2.)
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> Robert A West writes:
>
> >> Interesting... since a character with 10" of Flight and a 60 Strength
> >> can carry a 100 ton object and fly at his full 10".
> > That is part of the limitation: you don't get that feature.
>
> Well, a limitation cannot (or at least should not) add mechanics to a
> power, only take them away.
Well, this is not strictly a true statement. A Limitation does not take
away mechanics, it takes away effectiveness. If a new mechanic is
required to describe the Limitation precisely, I see nothing in the rules
nor in logic to deprecate the practice.
In any case, there is no new mechanic here. You are correct that, by
strict game mechanics, the entire effect may be obtained with a minimum
buy of Flight, appropriately limited. To be precise, the GM in question
imposed an increased minimum buy as a condition of taking the
Limitation, which is perfectly within the discretion suggested in the
BBB. A case never came up where the formula would have yielded a
sub-minimum buy; one could argue that either way.
Of course, the player would be free to purchase additional Flight or to
place non-combat multiples on it; however, this would be a waste of
points. I suppose that this could be useful if the larger amount of
flight enabled it to fit into an EC.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
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Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 23:36:37 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: dive for cover question
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> Firelynx16 writes:
>
> > I have always thought that when a character dove for cover that they
> > ended up on the ground.
>
> [etc-etc-etc]
>
> So, what happens if you dive for cover straight up?
Picky, picky. A character can be "knocked down" while in mid-air -- the
character is tumbling or in an inconvenient orientation and requires a
half-phase to right himself. I am sure that this is what is meant.
I agree with Bob's assessment that a breakfall roll at -1/1" of distance
is the correct mechanic, as in the case of knockback.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
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Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 23:41:29 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Normals with Powers
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> The noise we're hearing is waaaaaaaaaaay above 30-60Hz. More like 25-30
> MHz.
Surely, you mean Kilohertz, not Megahertz.
I still think that the ubiquitous high-pitched whine that almost all TVs
and monitors give off comes from the flyback transformer (or whatever
the thing is called these days), which would be around 15KHz for a
535-line TV and probably almost twice that for a Multiscan monitor.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 00:12:27 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Military Weapon Designations
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Dale Ward wrote:
> >
> I thought they had a Madison Ave. PR corp. on retainer to come up with
> all the neato-keen nicknames.
> For instance, SCUD and Patriot missiles... basically, the same thing.
> BUT, the Patriot is OURS (Yay!!) while the SCUD is THEIRS (Boo!!)
>
> It's all just PR.
Uhh....try again. Some of our nicknames for weapons are not particularly
patriotic, they just sound dangerous: Sabre, Phantom, HARM, HEAT,
Tomahawk, Sidewinder, Warthog. Most of the names are assigned by the
teams that build the prototypes and are, strictly speaking, unofficial.
Of course, only a dork or an ensign (oops! same thing!) would casually
refer to a Tomahawk as a BGM-109.
Scud (skud) v.i. to run quickly; (sailing) run before a gale of wind with
little or no sail spread; n. the act of scudding; loose vapory clouds
driven by the wind, usually presaging a storm.
The SS-1 is a liquid-fuelded surface-to-surface medium-range ballistic
missile. Its design mission is to attack front-and-second-line troops in
large quantities, disorganizing the enemy and making them more vulnerable
to assault. As such, the NATO code name, "Scud" is very appropriate. I
assume that the Soviets gave the weapon some nickname of their own.
The Patriot Missile is a solid-fueled, radar-guided ground-to-air
missile. Its original design mission was to attack aircraft, but it was
modified in the late 1980's to defend moderately hard targets against
missile attack. It was essentially of no value in defending soft targets
in the Gulf war, but Jane's Defense Weekly reports that upgrades since
then have made it more suitable to that mission as well.
Of course, I contend that the Patriot was 100% effective at its *real*
mission, which was to keep Israel out of the Gulf War.
In any event, the two weapons are markedly different in technology,
design and mission. About their only similarity is that they use rocket
motors and carry warheads.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 00:25:13 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: Champs List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Heroes Lethality
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Remnant wrote:
>
> Someone writes:
Hmmm....suddenly I am just "someone" to everyone by Rat and Bob
Greenwood. Is this an evil plot of my nemesis, Net Master, to delete me
from the world's consciousness? Stay tuned, true believers. :-)
>
> >> >I don't think that the Impairment and Disabling rules do more than give
> a
> >> >GM an excuse to exercise fiat in such matters.
>
> Remnant responds facetiously:
>
> >> Isn't that all any of the rules do?
> >>
> >> Alan
>
> Robert A. West properly jumps my case for it.
>
> >IMNSHO: *NO*!
>
> <Perfectly valid argument snipped>
>
> Remnant asks for forgiveness.
And I, in turn, ask for forgiveness for not seeing that this was an
attempt to make a point with humor. I have recently been involved in an
argument in another forum which is working on a major rewrite to another
rules system, and someone seriously advocated the position that you
parodied. I saw your statement in that light.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 01:03:27 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Combat Time (was Players who dont pay attention)
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>
> Yeah, I've generally kinda hit the middle between your two examples;
> rules talk is moderately heavy, but not ridiculous.
> Generally, each action phase should take:
> - about 30-60 seconds for a player to decide what to do
Too slow IMHO, but typical.
> - anywhere from nothing to a minute, with a general maximum of 3
> minutes, to figure out all the modifiers (depending on how complex the
> action is)
Gleep! A full minute to figure out modifiers? For a novice player,
perhaps, but I have never seen that for an experienced player before two
in the morning.
BTW, I don't tell the players what roll they need. They make a skill
roll and tell me how much they succeeded by. "I made my DEX roll by 3,"
to which I might respond, "The rope is very slippery, you just manage to
hold on." That would indicate a -3 modifier.
Attack rolls are similar. The players roll and add obvious modifiers,
such as range, and announce, "I hit DCV 7!" I then inform them of
whether that hit or not. Since I use a lot of agents with skill levels,
this can vary from phase to phase.
> - 15-45 seconds to roll and add dice (possibly more if there are
> Required Skill Rolls and such)
15 seconds seems to be typical. Perhaps 30 seconds for the combination
of complementary skill roll, primary skill roll, attack roll and result
roll. In any case, my players typically have pre-rolled their dice,
which speeds things up a lot.
The fast way to add dice is to group the pips into tens or twenties. The
fastest way to compute BODY on normal dice is a slightly improvement on
what you sugggested. Pair ones and sixes, don't count them. If they are
equal, the BODY equals the dice of the attack; if the sixes predominate,
increase the BODY by the number of extra sixes, if the ones predominate,
decrease the BODY by the number of extra ones.
> - 30 seconds to apply defenses to any damage, and damage to stats.
There are faster ways to do this. One is to use tally notation, counting
END, STUN and BODY used, not remaining. Another is to print off a series
of charts similar to those used for Star Fleet Battles, with blocks to
represent END, STUN and BODY. At the beginning of play, one marks off
with a pen or magic marker the blocks that are not needed: if one has 56
STUN, then one crosses off four of the sixth block of ten, and all the
blocks thereafter. One then ticks off blocks in pencil as STUN is used,
and erases as STUN is recovered.
In any event, the GM can note for the NPCs while the next player is
dithering, and the player can note while the GM speaks to the next
player.
> That comes to a range of 1:15 to 5:15 for each action phase, and allows
> for math dopes as well as math whizzes. Assuming that the median (3:15) is
> also the average, that a typical combat takes 8 phases per character (which
> is probably a high estimate), and that a typical fight is 5 on 5, I figure
> that this comes to 2 hours 20 minutes per combat.
We tend to run about three hours, but our combats are larger (six PCs and
two followers vs an equal or greater number of opponents) and tend to be
complex running affairs, where the GM must take frequent pauses to
consider what the opponents would reasonably do, given their imperfect
knowledge. The fastest character often gets fifteen or even thirty
actions, while the slowest character gets about half that. We also tend
to have at least three five or ten minute rules arguments during the run,
and the battles tend to be after midnight -- four hours of role-playing
followed by a battle that runs three hours, when the GM has been at work
since 5AM. Things would go much faster if I were younger or less tired.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 05:56:14 -0500
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 12:04 AM 6/2/98 -0400, Len Carpenter wrote:
>> There are many weapons that cannot be used one-handed, regardless of
>> strength. The actual length of the weapon is usally the deciding
>> factor.
>
>On the mark. Not even Conan could wield a 20' pike like a 1-handed
>stabbing spear.
Yes, but could Superman? (Or, to retain fantasy, could Hercules?)
Personally, I'd prefer to see "2-handed" as a limitation reserved
solely for those weapons which require 2 hands by design (a bow),
rather than by practicality (a pollaxe); weapons which are two-handed
by reason of weight and balance seem to me better represented by
obscene STR minima, lowered if you use two hands. Of course, the
problem there is that the usual one/two hand difference (+/-5 STR --
this principle is used in both STR minima and gripping STR in
different books, IIRC) is too small to create a weapon usable
two-handed by normals and not usable one-handed by Conan.
--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
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Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 07:59:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
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On Tue, 2 Jun 1998, Jeff M. Reid wrote:
> Compare the bastard sword to the francisca (under axes) -- both have the
> same STR Min (13) and both do the same amount of damage (1 1/2d6 HKA),
> except that the francisca is a one-handed weapon and the bastard sword is a
> 1 1/2-handed weapon. Thus, the bastard sword would get the -1/4 limitation,
> while the francisca would not. Your hypothetical STR 16 character can use
> either weapon one-handed, to exactly the same effect. But that fighter
> could, if he so chose, throw down his shield and grip the sword with both
> hands for an additional 1 Damage Class. The francisca (the "non-limited"
> weapon) does not offer this option.
Yes, but you can throw the francisca.
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Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 09:21:07 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade
> That last part is the crux of the thing, though -- Hero doesn't have
*just* a list of powers (by which, I take it, you mean SFX-based powers as
opposed to the game-effect-based Powers it does have a list of). A list of
SFX-based powers is a good thing, of course; that's the centerpiece of this
argument. In hero, though, there should and will always be ways of
modifying these powers so characters and their abilities can be
customized.<
Oh yeah, I agree totally. But I think H4 could really benefit from having
a huge list of SFX-based powers inserted in front of the power creation
rules, so that players only have to delve into that complexity every now
and then...most of what they want will already be defined for them, so they
just transcribe it to their character sheet and move on. It seems like
either Marvel Super Heroes or DC Heroes was like this, but I haven't opened
my (1st edition) boxes of either game for many years. Maybe the "Superhero
Campaign Book" that is scheduled for release in the distant future could
define a bunch of archetypes....ice powers, illusionist powers, stuff like
that. I don't see this happening (it's somewhat against the HSR mindset),
but it could help newbies especially.
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 06:36:01 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Combat Time (was Players who dont pay attention)
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At 01:03 AM 6/2/1998 -0700, Robert A. West wrote:
>Bob Greenwade wrote:
>> Yeah, I've generally kinda hit the middle between your two examples;
>> rules talk is moderately heavy, but not ridiculous.
>> Generally, each action phase should take:
>> - about 30-60 seconds for a player to decide what to do
>
>Too slow IMHO, but typical.
This would include the time it takes to describe his action to the GM,
including any soliloquy.
>> - anywhere from nothing to a minute, with a general maximum of 3
>> minutes, to figure out all the modifiers (depending on how complex the
>> action is)
>
>Gleep! A full minute to figure out modifiers? For a novice player,
>perhaps, but I have never seen that for an experienced player before two
>in the morning.
This allows for the time it takes to look up a modifier on a list of
maneuvers, possibly check in one of the books if something unusual is being
done, count hexes to determine Range Modifiers, etc.
>> - 15-45 seconds to roll and add dice (possibly more if there are
>> Required Skill Rolls and such)
>
>15 seconds seems to be typical. Perhaps 30 seconds for the combination
>of complementary skill roll, primary skill roll, attack roll and result
>roll. In any case, my players typically have pre-rolled their dice,
>which speeds things up a lot.
>
>The fast way to add dice is to group the pips into tens or twenties. The
>fastest way to compute BODY on normal dice is a slightly improvement on
>what you sugggested. Pair ones and sixes, don't count them. If they are
>equal, the BODY equals the dice of the attack; if the sixes predominate,
>increase the BODY by the number of extra sixes, if the ones predominate,
>decrease the BODY by the number of extra ones.
15 seconds is on the short side for someone who makes a standard normal
attack and can count fairly quickly, making only an Attack Roll and damage
roll; the longer time is for someone who needs to separate dice (e.g., if
they made a 3-1/2d6 KA, one die is the half-die and one is the STUN
Modifier die -- though I use Hit Locations in my game, so that would be
three additional dice instead of one). When there are Required Skill Rolls
with Complementary Rolls and other modifiers, it can take even longer.
>> - 30 seconds to apply defenses to any damage, and damage to stats.
>
>There are faster ways to do this. One is to use tally notation, counting
>END, STUN and BODY used, not remaining. Another is to print off a series
>of charts similar to those used for Star Fleet Battles, with blocks to
>represent END, STUN and BODY. At the beginning of play, one marks off
>with a pen or magic marker the blocks that are not needed: if one has 56
>STUN, then one crosses off four of the sixth block of ten, and all the
>blocks thereafter. One then ticks off blocks in pencil as STUN is used,
>and erases as STUN is recovered.
>
>In any event, the GM can note for the NPCs while the next player is
>dithering, and the player can note while the GM speaks to the next
>player.
Good advice, all of it (not just the immediately above). There does
need to be enough time spent before the next turn is decided, though, to
figure out if the figure being hit is Stunned, rendered unconscious, etc.
In this case, though, the 30 seconds given is probably a bit long; 15
seconds for both functions is probably more like it, even assuming the
person doing it is slow at math. This would reduce each turn in my
calculations to a straight 1-5 minutes, with some bias toward the low end.
---
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 06:39:04 -0700
To: Champs List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Heroes Lethality
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At 12:25 AM 6/2/1998 -0700, Robert A. West wrote:
>Remnant wrote:
>>
>> Someone writes:
>
>Hmmm....suddenly I am just "someone" to everyone by Rat and Bob
>Greenwood. Is this an evil plot of my nemesis, Net Master, to delete me
>from the world's consciousness? Stay tuned, true believers. :-)
I don't know who this Bob Greenwood person is, but everything I can find
that directly quotes your work has your full name on it....
---
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 06:42:42 -0700
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
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At 09:25 PM 6/1/1998 -0500, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote:
>If "components" is too much of a software term for Hero, just use the good
>ole Anglo-Saxon word, "parts." That's what they are. We'd probably have
>to call them Hero Parts (TM), though. :-)
Better yet, we could call them... Plug-Ins!
<Runs for cover...>
---
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 06:53:44 -0700
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
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At 09:52 PM 6/1/1998 -0500, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote:
>I do have the Bestiary. If you took every good candidate for a Hero Part
>represented in the book, made it a component, stuck it in the front,
>expanded and extrapolated a bit to cover the holes--32 pages might not be
>enough. Also, you could put more creatures in the remaining 160 than are
>currently represented AND make the listing easier to read.
Do you have the first edition Bestiary? Susko had a pretty cool trick
in that one that should have been kept for the second edition. Each
creature was given one full sheet for an average example, and then another
table was given detailing the changes for other types. For "Camel-Like
Animals," to given a randomly chosen example, the full sheet was given for
a dromedary, and a table complared a bactrian camel, the dromedary, a
llama, a guanaco, a vicuna, and an alpaca. I've never heard of a guanaco
or a vicuna, but I could always look it up in the dictionary and
encyclopedia, and if they seem appropriate to the setting I'm sending my
PCs to, they can encounter one, and I don't have to sit and figure out what
it's like.
Of course, it's just one step down the ladder, for GMs and players who
are even lazier than I am, to create a table that shows benchmarks for what
kind of damage is done by various creature bites, claws, tail swipes, etc.,
along with guidelines on how this can be modified for specific cases.
---
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 06:59:55 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Normals with Powers
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At 10:51 PM 6/1/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Bob Greenwade writes:
>
>> The noise we're hearing is waaaaaaaaaaay above 30-60Hz. More like 25-30
>> MHz.
>
>Okay, while I might be confused, I think you are, too. Try 25-30KHz, not
>MHz (25MHz is, well, radio).
Quite so, I had a bit of prefix confusion there... though I'm pretty
sure that those radio waves are electromagnetic, not sonic.
---
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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:30:51 -0400 (EDT)
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> If I could bounce bullets off my chest and Run up walls people would not
look at
> me and say "Gee that guy has special effects!" Now sure, you can't use
clinging
> to simulate flight, but you clould use flight to simulate running, or
clinging
> for that matter. So I don't see where your point is coming from.
Clinging, Ranged. You "fly" through the city canyons clinging to the
nearby building walls and running along them. You don't get as much
knockback because you -1D6 for clinging and +1D6 for being in the air for
a net 2D6 of knockback. The special effect is reactive TK. HERO TK is
nonreactive. Suppose you could grab an airplane telekinetically and be
pulled off of the ground. Ranged Clinging, try it today. :-)
Joe
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Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 09:12:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dennis C Hwang <dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
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On Mon, 1 Jun 1998, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
> At 06:54 AM 6/1/98 -0300, Trevor Barrie wrote:
> >On Sat, 30 May 1998, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
> >> But that is an example. You would only include it in dinosaurs and
> >> Godzilla. Even dragons are too small for line attack claws.
> >
> >Dragons are smaller than dinosaurs?
>
> Godzilla is not a dinosaur. He is usually called hundreds of feet tall.
> Dragons are usually tens of feet long. (Based on my extensive AD&D
> background. :-) Maybe I was wrong with dinos, especially since I don't
> think there were any long armed dinosaurs.
*Large* long-armed dinosaurs? The segnosaurians were of a respectable
size, and had pretty long arms (although probably not enough to warrant
AoE on their claws, for the most part). _Therezinosaurus cheloniformis_,
a probably segnosaur, appears to have had claws measuring almost a meter
in length, at the end of a pair of eight-foot arms. (It's only known from
a pectoral girdle, so we don't have much idea how big the rest of the
animal was.) I don't know if that would meet requirements for an AoE
attack.
Oviraptorosaurs had pretty long arms, too, but they were small overall.
Brachiosaurs, of course, had massive arms, but they were used for walking
(and, presumably, stomping.) :)
--Dennis
*************************************************************
* dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu * xenopathologist at large! *
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* So...you're keeping me alive because you don't know *
* DOS. *
* *
* --Izzy to Gabriel *
* THE PROPHECY II *
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 17:29:12
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
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I have been considering what it means to have NRM on a Power,
and what it means when firing blind. Here is my take on it, just to start
things off.
Under normal conditions, a Power with NRM takes no range modifier,
that much is obvious. However, when firing blind, different factors
take effect.
Take Eyebeam Man. His namesake Power is the Power to shoot
beams of energy from his eyes at whatever his eyes look at. Eyebeam
Man has a 10d6 EB, NRM. If he can see it, he can hit it.
Now, put a blindfold on Eyebeam Man, and tie him to a chair in a
location he knows well, such as his living room. Now, have him shoot
at targets, one across the room in front of his fireplace, one across the
yard in front of his tree, and one in the front yard of his neighbor, who
lives a mile down the road.
There are two different factors here. One is hitting the target, that is
shooting blind with a NRM Power, but the other is _locating_ blind,
and that is much, much harder.
Someone on the list recently reported that he thought he had a 14-
AK for his local neighborhood. So, how likely do you think it is that
even a person with this level of knowledge will be able to accurately
target a location he cannot see, at a considerable distance, even
with a NRM attack power?
Assuming that a particular power has no range modifier and can be
fired blind (an assumption which is called into question in the case of
Mental Powers by their description and nature), how much of a range
modifier do you give them for targeting blind at great range, and how
do you implement it? Do you give them a range modifier, or do you
give them a PER roll, or do you give them an AK roll, and what are
the modifiers?
Filksinger
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 11:14:27 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 11:30 AM 6/2/1998 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>> If I could bounce bullets off my chest and Run up walls people would not
look at
>> me and say "Gee that guy has special effects!" Now sure, you can't use
clinging
>> to simulate flight, but you clould use flight to simulate running, or
clinging
>> for that matter. So I don't see where your point is coming from.
>
>Clinging, Ranged. You "fly" through the city canyons clinging to the
>nearby building walls and running along them. You don't get as much
>knockback because you -1D6 for clinging and +1D6 for being in the air for
>a net 2D6 of knockback. The special effect is reactive TK. HERO TK is
>nonreactive. Suppose you could grab an airplane telekinetically and be
>pulled off of the ground. Ranged Clinging, try it today. :-)
Despite the protests you're sure to get on this, Joe, I think that this
sounds like a really cool way to simulate reactive TK.
---
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Lighter Characters (was Poll: Champions Dialogue #2.)
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Date: 02 Jun 1998 14:19:15 -0400
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Robert A West writes:
> Well, this is not strictly a true statement. A Limitation does not take
> away mechanics, it takes away effectiveness. If a new mechanic is
> required to describe the Limitation precisely, I see nothing in the rules
> nor in logic to deprecate the practice.
I think I misused "mechanic". The point is that a Limitation should not
change how a power fundamentally works. The Limitation in question does
that: it ties Flight speed with mass. Yes, it makes that Flight less
Effective, but it does so in a way that it probably should not. And it
does it in a rather sloppy fashion: how did the 1" Flight (2AP) = 5
Strength (5AP) formula come into being, and why the obvious dichotomy in
active points?
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing
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Chad Riley writes:
> If I could bounce bullets off my chest and Run up walls people would not
> look at me and say "Gee that guy has special effects!"
No, but if you are going to model these effects in Hero, those are special
effects. How is it that you can run up walls? Are you just running very
fast? Or are you digging into the surface with claws, like a lizard? For
the former I would use limited Flight; but for the latter I certainly would
use Clinging.
> Now sure, you can't use clinging to simulate flight, but you clould use
> flight to simulate running, or clinging for that matter. So I don't see
> where your point is coming from.
The point is that there is a "super climbing" construct in Dark Champions
that uses Clinging that can be better accomplished either with a normal
Climbing skill roll, the extraordinary skills rule, or limited Flight.
> Chad (sorry I jumped in on this late I was away for the weekend)
The weekend? This thing has been going on for two *weeks*. :)
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing
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Joe Mucchiello writes:
> Clinging, Ranged. You "fly" through the city canyons clinging to the
> nearby building walls and running along them.
Um, no. The power is "Swinging".
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 11:25:08 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 05:29 PM 6/2/1998, Filksinger wrote:
>I have been considering what it means to have NRM on a Power,
>and what it means when firing blind. Here is my take on it, just to start
>things off.
>
>Under normal conditions, a Power with NRM takes no range modifier,
>that much is obvious. However, when firing blind, different factors
>take effect.
>
>Take Eyebeam Man. His namesake Power is the Power to shoot
>beams of energy from his eyes at whatever his eyes look at. Eyebeam
>Man has a 10d6 EB, NRM. If he can see it, he can hit it.
>
>Now, put a blindfold on Eyebeam Man, and tie him to a chair in a
>location he knows well, such as his living room. Now, have him shoot
>at targets, one across the room in front of his fireplace, one across the
>yard in front of his tree, and one in the front yard of his neighbor, who
>lives a mile down the road.
>
>There are two different factors here. One is hitting the target, that is
>shooting blind with a NRM Power, but the other is _locating_ blind,
>and that is much, much harder.
>
>Someone on the list recently reported that he thought he had a 14-
>AK for his local neighborhood. So, how likely do you think it is that
>even a person with this level of knowledge will be able to accurately
>target a location he cannot see, at a considerable distance, even
>with a NRM attack power?
>
>Assuming that a particular power has no range modifier and can be
>fired blind (an assumption which is called into question in the case of
>Mental Powers by their description and nature), how much of a range
>modifier do you give them for targeting blind at great range, and how
>do you implement it? Do you give them a range modifier, or do you
>give them a PER roll, or do you give them an AK roll, and what are
>the modifiers?
Here's an idea; let's see who likes it.
If you're firing blind, normal Range Modifiers apply for targeting *in
addition* to any Range Modifiers for guiding your attack to its target.
In most cases, this means that Range Modifiers double. However,
built-in Range Skill Levels (as part of a weapon) only count for the
"delivery" half and not the "targeting" half. Also, even weapons that have
No Range Modifier -- including Mental Powers -- get these Range Modifiers.
All this is in addition to the existing rule of firing at OCV 0, and the
requirement of at least shooting at the correct hex.
Of course, a sufficiently powerful Mind Scan can negate these penalties,
but that's a whole different story.
This brings to mind a hole in the Hero rules. If there have ever been
any rules for missing your intended target and hitting something else, I
don't know where it is. It is pretty obvious that if Pulsar is standing in
front of a wall and Quantum looses a blast at him and misses, she's going
to hit the wall. But with all the various possibilities in play, it'd be
nice to have something solid to work with (especially since this very event
is the excuse for making "Does No BODY" a -0 Limitation for Energy Blast).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: dive for cover question
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Date: 02 Jun 1998 14:26:38 -0400
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Robert A West writes:
>> So, what happens if you dive for cover straight up?
> Picky, picky.
Just trying to cover all the bases. "Dive for Cover" could be teleporting
straight up 5".
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 18:31:47
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
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> From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
>Ranged Clinging, try it today. :-)
>
> Joe
NO.
Filksinger
____________________________________________________________________
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 02 Jun 1998 14:33:15 -0400
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Jeff M Reid writes:
>> Ignore Strength Min, because that is *NOT* what the limitation is about.
> It may not be what the limitation is "about" (whatever that means), but
> it's a part of it.
No, it is *NOT*. The hands Limitations is *NOT* a Strength Minimum
modifier. Do not treat it as such. Stop thinking of it as such and it
starts making sense.
> It is impossible to talk about the merits of the "1 1/2-Handed"
> Limitation without mentioning STR Min.
Sure, you can. A 1.5 handed weapon can be wielded with one hand with a
shield in the other hand. Or it can be wielded with two hands to do more
damage.
Okay, that's cheating. :)
> It's too intrinsically connected to the effect of a 1 1/2-Handed weapon
> to ignore.
I did not say ignore Strength Minimum. I said ignore it in the context of
the Limitation.
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 14:50:30 -0400
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: dive for cover question
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 02:26 PM 6/2/98 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Robert A West writes:
>
>>> So, what happens if you dive for cover straight up?
>
>> Picky, picky.
>
>Just trying to cover all the bases. "Dive for Cover" could be teleporting
>straight up 5".
>
No ... I don't think it can. Dive For Cover is an aborting action.
You cannot abort to a teleport.
You can dive for cover straight up by jumping to whatever height
your strength will support. (I dunno about Superleap. Again, that
would be turning on a power -- something you can't do on an abort.)
And if you're jumping, there should be no need for a breakfall or
acrobatics roll. You would land on your feet (at the end of your
phase) just as you would in a normal jump.
====================== =================================================
Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
====================== =================================================
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From: dobrien@e-mail.com
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 15:10:08 EDT
To: hero-l@sysabend.org
X-Sender-Info: Dennis L. O'Brien
Consulting Systems Engineer
VM Systems Software 15863 (925) 675-5594
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>> Ignore Strength Min, because that is *NOT* what the limitation is about.
>
>It may not be what the limitation is "about" (whatever that means), but
>it's a part of it. It is impossible to talk about the merits of the "1
>1/2-Handed" Limitation without mentioning STR Min. It's too intrinsically
>connected to the effect of a 1 1/2-Handed weapon to ignore.
>
>A weapon that is one-handed (the default) can be used normally (i.e. at the
>stated STR Min). Adding the "1 1/2-Handed" Limitation (-1/4) reduces the
>cost slightly and results in a weapon that can still be used one-handed at
>the exact same STR Min; in addition, you may >opt< to use it two-handed for
>a little extra oomph. Thus, the "1 1/2-Handed" Limitation in no way limits
>the weapon (not one bit...not even a little), and in fact increases the
>options that the wielder possesses. So where's the limitation?
Jeff,
You're right, STR Min is broken the way it is written. The writer simply
wasn't thinking clearly. My house rule (it is a change from the rule as
written) is that the calculated STR Min is for 2-handed use, and the STR
Min is 2 pts higher when used 1-handed.
Dennis
"The only downside I can see is that when the human part dies and you're
at the funeral, the cyborg part will try to claw its way out of the
casket and slay all the mourners". -- Scott Adams on Cyborgs
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 15:11:09 -0400
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>Assuming that a particular power has no range modifier and can be
>fired blind (an assumption which is called into question in the case of
>Mental Powers by their description and nature), how much of a range
>modifier do you give them for targeting blind at great range, and how
>do you implement it? Do you give them a range modifier, or do you
>give them a PER roll, or do you give them an AK roll, and what are
>the modifiers?
The book covers blind combat -- 0 OCV at range. No modifiers, I
would assume, since you have bought the power with NRM. All of
this, of course, is moot if you have ranged targeting senses other
than sight.
====================== =================================================
Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
====================== =================================================
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: dive for cover question
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Date: 02 Jun 1998 15:22:12 -0400
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Mike Christodoulou writes:
> No ... I don't think it can. Dive For Cover is an aborting action.
> You cannot abort to a teleport.
Dive for Cover allows you to abort your action to move. Nowhere in the
descrioption of Dive for Cover is "jumping" specified as the only type of
movement allowed, nor where one moves to aside from "out of the area of
effect".
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Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 15:52:26 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Acrobatics
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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I've been seeing some talk about Acrobatics in the "Dive for Cover" thread,
which reminded me of some questions I have about its use.
Acrobatics has always been a popular skill for the PCs in my group, but
I've found that it hardly ever gets used...it seems that the players like
the idea of having an agile character, but they don't know how to take
advantage of it once they have it.
* If Acrobatics is commonly used in your campaign, what are some examples?
Is it generally used so that they can get small bonuses in combat? What
bonuses do you generally give for acrobatic maneuvers? One common maneuver
I've seen is to flip over an opponent to get behind him, then attack from
behind for a bonus. Another is to leapfrog a teammate to attack a
villain...the villain didn't see you coming from behind the teammate, so
you get a bonus. That's about all I can think of that I've seen...only had
one player who was inventive with Acrobatics.
* It seems as if "being flamboyant for the sake of it" and doing flips and
whatnot is not a smart move, since it introduces one more chance to fail.
Perhaps this is why my players don't use it regularly.... Do you see the
same attitude in your games?
* If a PC fails an Acrobatics roll, do they fall on their face and lose the
rest of their phase, or is this too harsh? As with many aspects of
superheroing, we often don't get to see the results of a "failed roll" when
we go to the source (comic books), since failure is much less common in the
comics. There's nothing worse than having your highly-trained Acrobat do a
simple manuever and fail miserably.
* If Acrobatics can be used in a similar manner as Breakfall (from other
threads, it sounds like most people do this whether or not it is official),
then what's the point of having a Breakfall skill at all? Why not just
expand the definition of Acrobatics (a fairly broad skill) to contain
Breakfall (a fairly specific skill)? Does it make sense to have Breakfall
without having Acrobatics?
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 16:03:19 -0400
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: dive for cover question
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 03:22 PM 6/2/98 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Mike Christodoulou writes:
>
>> No ... I don't think it can. Dive For Cover is an aborting action.
>> You cannot abort to a teleport.
>
>Dive for Cover allows you to abort your action to move. Nowhere in the
>descrioption of Dive for Cover is "jumping" specified as the only type of
>movement allowed, nor where one moves to aside from "out of the area of
>effect".
That's correct. Diving, Jumping, Sidestepping, Rolling are all probably
valid methods of DFC. However, the book DOES say that you cannot abort
to a Movement power, e.g. Running, Teleport, Flight, etc. (REF: Abort
rules.)
====================== =================================================
Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
====================== =================================================
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From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@early.com>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 16:17:05 -0400
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>> No common melee weapon should have a STR Min higher than 13. I
treat a
>> longsword and a basic bastard sword as both having a 10 STR Min, a
heavier
>> and longer 1.5-handed war sword a 12 STR Min, and a 2-handed great
sword
>> a 13 STR Min.
Jeff M. Reid replied:
> I'm worried here that you might be falling into a trap I've seen
others
> fall into (please correct me if I'm wrong), namely assuming that if
a
> character doesn't meet the STR Min for a weapon, he can not use
that weapon
> at all. In fact, I've even known some people to assume that the STR
Min is
> the STR required to even >lift< the weapon, which is of course
absurd.
> ("Hmmm, looks like that broad sword weighs about 300 lbs...").
No, I'm aware of the rules regarding STR Min from HSR and FH. A
character with an 8 STR can still wield an 18 STR Min halberd, albeit
at the penalties you quoted from HSR.
(Official rules quoted snipped)
> If you apply these guidelines to the melee weapons, then the listed
STR
> Mins don't seem too off the mark; a STR 13 character CAN use a
great sword,
> albeit at -1 OCV, and even a STR 8 character can use it, although
he would
> receive 1d6 of damage with each swing, in addition to the -2 OCV.
Of
> course, such puny characters could never add any STR to the base
damage of
> the sword.
Yes, the STR Mins are way off the mark. Consider the 18 STR Min
halberd. This means the vast majority of Swiss Halberdiers of the
late Middle Ages and early Renaissance were not using their weapons
at full effectiveness, unless you're willing to concede the average
Halberdier was built like Schwarzenegger. Halberds typically weighed
from 9 to 12 pounds, not too cumbrous a weight for a 13 STR man to
wield with facility.
By the way, a STR 8 character is hardly "puny"--he or she is simply
average. Such a character should be able to wield a rapier or short
sword at no penalty; these blades weighed on the average about 2
pounds. A knight's long sword rarely weighed more than 3 pounds, and
a falchion no more than 4 pounds. A war sword weighed 4.5 to 5
pounds, and most great swords 7 to 8 pounds. (While even heavier
swords hold places in modern museums, many of these were forged for
ceremonial uses, not for the battlefield.) It took a strong, healthy
man to wield a war sword to full effect, but he needn't have been a
power lifter. A 13 STR knight doesn't deserve an OCV penalty for
wielding a great sword in a tourney; a mighty 18 STR knight does
deserve the damage bonus for his extraordinary brawn. How much
damage a basic great sword does is up to the GM, of course.
For the sake of comparison, the strength minimums in GURPS don't show
nearly the broad spread as they do in HSR and FH, with a character
needing to be three times as strong in Hero to wield a great sword as
compared to a short sword. In GURPS, it's ST 12 vs. ST 7, and ST 12
is only 1.7 times stronger than ST 7. A bastard sword in GURPS, when
wielded in two hands rather than one, sees its ST minimum drop from
11 to 10, and its damage improves by +1.
But then, the weapons data in GURPS are based more on realistic
interpretations of length, weight, and construction than on Hero's
slavish reliance on the STR Min formula of Active Points/2, with
weapon names at times applied rather arbitrarily. A broad sword in
FH gets a +1 OCV, while a scimitar doesn't. Presumably, the broad
sword is a quicker, more agile weapon, yet it has a higher STR Min.
Huh? Hardly a realistic distinction between the two. The scimitar's
lack of an OCV bonus is solely to balance the Active Points for its
lower STR Min.
While the STR Min formula aids in the construction of new weapons, it
doesn't always promote reasonable depictions of real-world weapons,
which aren't necessarily balanced in their attributes and efficacy.
Some weapons are simply more efficient than others in their damage
potential, though they may be comparable in the muscle-power required
to use them. The STR Min formula forces too many compromises, so I
often sidestep it. And as page 201 of HSR says, "STR Min is an
optional statistic, and the GM shouldn't use it if he doesn't want
to." I use it, but not the way the formula dictates.
If a GM chooses to adhere to this formula at the expense of sound
damage figures and OCV modifiers, then instead of calling a halberd a
2d6+1 damage weapon with an 18 STR Min, why not treat it as a 2d6
damage attack with a more reasonable 15 STR Min? The halberd didn't
weigh markedly more than a fauchard, so why should it take 1.5 times
as much STR to wield it without penalty?
There's plenty to gripe about in FH's weapons list. Hence the time
investment so many of us have made in rewriting it.
Len Carpenter
redlion@early.com
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Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 16:38:41 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Anime Hero
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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A while back someone suggested "Anime Hero" and several others said this
was impossible, since Anime isn't a genre, it's a style. Apparantly
there's a new game out which sounds similar to the "Anime Hero" idea.
Here's an excerpt from the Crossroads Gazette, an RPG newsletter for the
CompuServe RPG forum, describing this new game:
-----------------------------------------
Big Eyes Small Mouth
Anime RPG System
Written by Mark C. Mackinnon
This is a wonderful tiny (and fairly inexpensive) rpg system
to permit people to run a wide variety of anime (japanese
animation) style games. It uses a minimalistic rules system
which works great for this style. The book contains a lot of
artwork, about half of which is fair, and the other half is
great. The book itself has a lot of interesting insight into
the reasoning behind the rules, about role-playing anime
games, and about various other aspects of the genre and such.
The only thing missing, imo, is a sample adventure or three,
although there are quite a lot of ideas.
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Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 13:52:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Acrobatics
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
---David Stallard wrote:
(note: paragraphs juggled to group them in the order I felt like
responding to them)
> Acrobatics has always been a popular skill for the PCs in my group,
but
> I've found that it hardly ever gets used...it seems that the players
like
> the idea of having an agile character, but they don't know how to take
> advantage of it once they have it.
>
> * It seems as if "being flamboyant for the sake of it" and doing
flips and
> whatnot is not a smart move, since it introduces one more chance to
fail.
> Perhaps this is why my players don't use it regularly.... Do you see
the
> same attitude in your games?
>
> * If a PC fails an Acrobatics roll, do they fall on their face and
lose the
> rest of their phase, or is this too harsh? As with many aspects of
> superheroing, we often don't get to see the results of a "failed
roll" when
> we go to the source (comic books), since failure is much less common
in the
> comics. There's nothing worse than having your highly-trained
Acrobat do a
> simple manuever and fail miserably.
It's much to harsh if you actually want the plays to use the skill.
Separate "failure" from "catestrophic failure" in your mind. If a PC
tries something creative in combat using acrobatics, success should
give him some small OCV or DCV bonus; for a failure, depending on what
was attempted, some OCV/DCV mods might be appropriate, or might not,
judge based on the attempted action; catestrophic failure (like
rolling an 18) might actually drop him on his face, lose his action,
scrag his DCV, etc, etc, etc.
Remember, if you penalize the PCs to much when they try to be
creative, they'll stop trying. This is the Hero System - it's ok to
encourage levels of heroic activity that might be considered stupid in
the real world.
>* If Acrobatics is commonly used in your campaign, what are some
examples?
> Is it generally used so that they can get small bonuses in combat?
What
> bonuses do you generally give for acrobatic maneuvers?
Those small bonuses are important. Offensive, I usually award bonuses
for a successful (and clever) acrobatic maneuver as per the emamy
being suprised: +1 to +3 OCV depending on how clever and how
successful, frequently using the complimentary skill rules as a
partial guide (+1 for every -2 the roll was made by). I treat
defensive actions in a similar manner. The key (for the PCs) to
having acrobatics work for them is to be creative. Don't just tell
you "I do an acrobatic leap" and expect to get anything. Describe to
me exactly what you're attempting to do. I had one player who (when
using miniatures for combat) would move his miniature around the
board, flipping it head over feat, making silly sound effects as he
went, to show exactly what his character was doing - it was like
watching a kid play with action figures, but it was very descriptive
of what he was trying to do.
> * If Acrobatics can be used in a similar manner as Breakfall (from
other
> threads, it sounds like most people do this whether or not it is
official),
> then what's the point of having a Breakfall skill at all? Why not
just
> expand the definition of Acrobatics (a fairly broad skill) to contain
> Breakfall (a fairly specific skill)? Does it make sense to have
Breakfall
> without having Acrobatics?
Actually, you've more or less described 3rd edition Acrobatics. The
Breakfall component was separated out for 4th edition as part of the
attempt to "normalize" the skills (make all skills have the same cost
and similar level of potential functionality). Acrobatics, as
described in 4th edition, should not be used as a substitute for
Breakfall (although I do allow it as a complimentary skill)
==
===========================================================
John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org>
===========================================================
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: dive for cover question
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Date: 02 Jun 1998 17:06:36 -0400
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Mike Christodoulou writes:
> That's correct. Diving, Jumping, Sidestepping, Rolling are all probably
> valid methods of DFC. However, the book DOES say that you cannot abort
> to a Movement power,
Leaping is a form of movement. If you can leap, you can Superleap -- it is
the same form of movement. Superleap is a Movement Power.
You have just encountered a specific exception.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Acrobatics
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David Stallard writes:
> Acrobatics has always been a popular skill for the PCs in my group, but
> I've found that it hardly ever gets used...it seems that the players like
> the idea of having an agile character, but they don't know how to take
> advantage of it once they have it.
A big use of Acrobatics is not being used at all. Whenever you (the GM)
call for a DEX roll due to unsure footing, the character with Acrobatics
does not even have to roll; he automatically keeps his footing.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Anime Hero
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David Stallard writes:
> A while back someone suggested "Anime Hero" and several others said this
> was impossible, since Anime isn't a genre, it's a style.
No, it is not a style, it is a medium. "Anime Hero" would be like "Movie
and TV Hero" except for the fact that the cast is animated. In other
words, a complete sourcebook would be about the size of small encyclopaedia
or three.
[...]
> This is a wonderful tiny (and fairly inexpensive) rpg system to permit
> people to run a wide variety of anime (japanese animation) style
> games. [...]
This sounds like it could be something similar to "Teenagers From
Outterspace", itself an "anime rpg" of sorts (or of a sort, anyway).
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 21:51:54
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
>
<snip>
>
> I did not say ignore Strength Minimum. I said ignore it in the context of
> the Limitation.
>
OK, I'll ignore it entirely.
If I have a one-handed weapon, I can use it one-handed. If I have a one and a half handed weapon, I can use it one handed or two.
So, for a -1/4 Limitation, I get greater flexibility, and no penalty of which I am aware.
What, exactly, is the Limitation?
Filksinger
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 21:57:40
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@Concentric.net>
>
>
> >Assuming that a particular power has no range modifier and can be
> >fired blind (an assumption which is called into question in the case of
> >Mental Powers by their description and nature), how much of a range
> >modifier do you give them for targeting blind at great range, and how
> >do you implement it? Do you give them a range modifier, or do you
> >give them a PER roll, or do you give them an AK roll, and what are
> >the modifiers?
>
> The book covers blind combat -- 0 OCV at range. No modifiers, I
> would assume, since you have bought the power with NRM. All of
> this, of course, is moot if you have ranged targeting senses other
> than sight.
Of course, this gives you a 0 OCV to hit a man-sized target at 10
miles, even though you cannot see it, just because someone told you
where it is and you have NRM on your power. That's ridiculous.
So, now that you found what the rules say, what makes sense?
Filksinger
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 15:37:33 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Acrobatics
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 01:52 PM 6/2/1998 -0700, John Desmarais wrote:
>> * If a PC fails an Acrobatics roll, do they fall on their face and lose the
>> rest of their phase, or is this too harsh? As with many aspects of
>> superheroing, we often don't get to see the results of a "failed roll" when
>> we go to the source (comic books), since failure is much less common in the
>> comics. There's nothing worse than having your highly-trained Acrobat do a
>> simple manuever and fail miserably.
>
>It's much to harsh if you actually want the plays to use the skill.
>Separate "failure" from "catestrophic failure" in your mind. If a PC
>tries something creative in combat using acrobatics, success should
>give him some small OCV or DCV bonus; for a failure, depending on what
>was attempted, some OCV/DCV mods might be appropriate, or might not,
>judge based on the attempted action; catestrophic failure (like
>rolling an 18) might actually drop him on his face, lose his action,
>scrag his DCV, etc, etc, etc.
In some situations such as backflips and big jumps, it might do well to
have the character fall. He may then try a Breakfall Roll; if he makes it,
he stands right back up again with just a minor penalty (like a lost phase,
or -1 to OCV and DCV), but if he fails he stays down at the full penalty
for being prone until he gets back up again.
(This thought is based on observations watching the figure skaters,
speed skaters, snoboarders, and downhill skiers at the Winter Olypic Games
this year.)
>> * If Acrobatics can be used in a similar manner as Breakfall (from other
>> threads, it sounds like most people do this whether or not it is official),
>> then what's the point of having a Breakfall skill at all? Why not just
>> expand the definition of Acrobatics (a fairly broad skill) to contain
>> Breakfall (a fairly specific skill)? Does it make sense to have Breakfall
>> without having Acrobatics?
>
>Actually, you've more or less described 3rd edition Acrobatics. The
>Breakfall component was separated out for 4th edition as part of the
>attempt to "normalize" the skills (make all skills have the same cost
>and similar level of potential functionality). Acrobatics, as
>described in 4th edition, should not be used as a substitute for
>Breakfall (although I do allow it as a complimentary skill)
There are, I suspect, some cases where Breakfall is used where what
should be used is Acrobatics. For example, the description of Dive For
Cover in the HSR (page 155) says that a DEX Roll at -1/1" to succeed; while
some would use Breakfall for the character to land safely, I'd use
Acrobatics, since the character is in control of the "takeoff" (so to speak).
(Maybe Hero5 needs to borrow the Athletics Skill from Fuzion....)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 15:44:09 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: dive for cover question
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 02:50 PM 6/2/1998 -0400, Mike Christodoulou wrote:
>>Just trying to cover all the bases. "Dive for Cover" could be teleporting
>>straight up 5".
>
>No ... I don't think it can. Dive For Cover is an aborting action.
>You cannot abort to a teleport.
>
>You can dive for cover straight up by jumping to whatever height
>your strength will support. (I dunno about Superleap. Again, that
>would be turning on a power -- something you can't do on an abort.)
>And if you're jumping, there should be no need for a breakfall or
>acrobatics roll. You would land on your feet (at the end of your
>phase) just as you would in a normal jump.
Actually, the description of Dive For Cover doesn't say you have to use
Leaping, or any other specific type of Movement, to get to where you're
going. That's a bit of a hole in the rules, yes; but all GMs I've played
with -- and most of the ones on the list, from what I gather -- do allow
any Movement Power that the character has to be used for a Dive For Cover.
(For that matter, it doesn't even specify that you have to be able to
get where you're landing in a single Phase. "I Dive For Cover!" "Where
to?" "Singapore; we were headed to the airport to go there anyway..." OK,
we *can* use some common sense here....)
---
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing
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Bob Greenwade writes:
> Despite the protests you're sure to get on this, Joe, I think that
> this sounds like a really cool way to simulate reactive TK.
Umm... try Stretching.
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From: "dflacks" <dflacks@ican.net>
To: "Heroes Mailling List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Anime Hero
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 18:48:00 -0400
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
> Subject: Anime Hero
> Date: Tuesday, June 02, 1998 4:38 PM
>
> A while back someone suggested "Anime Hero" and several others said this
> was impossible, since Anime isn't a genre, it's a style. Apparantly
> there's a new game out which sounds similar to the "Anime Hero" idea.
> Here's an excerpt from the Crossroads Gazette, an RPG newsletter for the
> CompuServe RPG forum, describing this new game:
> -----------------------------------------
> Big Eyes Small Mouth
> Anime RPG System
> Written by Mark C. Mackinnon
>
> This is a wonderful tiny (and fairly inexpensive) rpg system
> to permit people to run a wide variety of anime (japanese
> animation) style games. It uses a minimalistic rules system
> which works great for this style. The book contains a lot of
> artwork, about half of which is fair, and the other half is
> great. The book itself has a lot of interesting insight into
> the reasoning behind the rules, about role-playing anime
> games, and about various other aspects of the genre and such.
> The only thing missing, imo, is a sample adventure or three,
> although there are quite a lot of ideas.
I have a copy of BESM and have played in a few tournement games. It is a
fun system but it is not Anime Hero. The cournerstone of BESM is it's
minimalistic rules system. A large amount depends on player and GM
knowledge of Anime and agreement on what is allowed in the game.
For example I created a psionic character. He had level four psionics. In
the course of the evening's games the psionics was used to ego blast a
security guard, read his mind, and plant post-hypnotic suggestions via mind
control. Levitate the entire party. Tose around some robots. Rip the
head of one robot and use it like a bowling ball against the oncomming
cyber dogs. Other attempted actions included illusions and melting metal
via Pyrokinesis was concidered. All this fall under the one power.
Many of the powers are similarly broad. The exact limits of what a power
is are not detailed, and depend on the character conception as the player
and GM understand it.
A character with Cybernetic body could be a six million dollar man type, or
a robocop type with armor etc., or a Data type with full life support. If
your character concept is an android like Data you would get the life
support for free.
There is also NO skills. All skills beyond powers and combat are based on
the three statistics.
There is a set of ANIME style disadavatages available. Roll Playing these
disadvantages is great fun.
This game was a lot of fun to play, and character creation is fast. But,
as the HSR vs. Fuzion debates show (boo, hiss, oh no not again), a lot of
die hard Hero players seem to really like the detailed character creation
aspect of Hero. This is the antithesis of BESM character creation.
IMHO Running Anime hero would mean the GM and players deciding on an Anime
style for the game and designing the characters and stories to match. A
list of Anime type disadvantes could be inspired by BESM and other Anime
like RPGs.
Taking the Bubble Gum Crissis Fuzion RPG as an example. Most of the book
deals with the background and style. It could be defined in hero as a set
of campaign rules like; All powers must have technological origins.
Teleportation is not allowed, etc.
Kind of like designing a custom magic system in fantasy hero. I kind of
like that analogy. A set of generic system design sheets could be used to
define the limits of any Hero campaign. I am going to go check out my old
FH book. Maybe these will help me clerify the Sci-fi universe I am
currently tring to develop.
Daniel Flacks dflacks@ican.net
Give me ambiguity or give me something else
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
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Date: 02 Jun 1998 18:49:40 -0400
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Filksinger writes:
> Of course, this gives you a 0 OCV to hit a man-sized target at 10
> miles, even though you cannot see it, just because someone told you
> where it is and you have NRM on your power. That's ridiculous.
> So, now that you found what the rules say, what makes sense?
Well, if he could make a targeting sense roll, and be able to hit the
target 10 miles away at normal OCV -- that is, with no range modifiers --
why is it that if he fails said targeting sense roll he is suddenly hit
with range modifier penalties? Whether or not he makes the sense roll has
no bearing on his range modifiers or lack thereof. It *ONLY* affects his
OCV.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
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Filksinger writes:
> So, for a -1/4 Limitation, I get greater flexibility, and no penalty of
> which I am aware.
> What, exactly, is the Limitation?
If you wield the weapon with two hands, you cannot use a shield. That
means your DCV is lower than if you wielded the weapon with one hand.
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 16:04:01 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 06:47 PM 6/2/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>Bob Greenwade writes:
>
>> Despite the protests you're sure to get on this, Joe, I think that
>> this sounds like a really cool way to simulate reactive TK.
>
>Umm... try Stretching.
I *was* Stretching. That's why I decided I like it! ;-]
---
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 19:27:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
To: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> Of course, this gives you a 0 OCV to hit a man-sized target at 10
> miles, even though you cannot see it, just because someone told you
> where it is and you have NRM on your power. That's ridiculous.
>
> So, now that you found what the rules say, what makes sense?
Why is it ridiculous? I think it really depends on special effect. If the
NRM on the power comes from the fact that the weapon has a guidance system
that negates range, then it isn't so ridiculous. If the NRM is somehow a
product of the character's sight, then obviously you might want to negate
the advantage altogether.
Dragonfly
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 23:50:57 +0000
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: dive for cover question
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Bob Greenwade wrote:
> Actually, the description of Dive For Cover doesn't say you have to use
> Leaping, or any other specific type of Movement, to get to where you're
> going. That's a bit of a hole in the rules, yes; but all GMs I've played
> with -- and most of the ones on the list, from what I gather -- do allow
> any Movement Power that the character has to be used for a Dive For Cover.
> (For that matter, it doesn't even specify that you have to be able to
> get where you're landing in a single Phase. "I Dive For Cover!" "Where
> to?" "Singapore; we were headed to the airport to go there anyway..." OK,
> we *can* use some common sense here....)
Actually it's says you can not dive more than half your maximum movement. Of
course it doesn't mention non-combat, phases or anything.
My group plays it this way:
Use any movement power. -1/1" for normal movement, Dex roll for T-Port
If it's an abort, you decide how far you want to try before rolling. If
you have a delay, roll first and see how far you go. We also allow you
to make multiple dives at -2 after the first. (Just like blocking) You can
continue to do this until you're out of movement.
We also assume that you're up when you reach your target hex.
We seem rather lenient, but it's worked for us. Probably has something to do
with few teleporters and lots of explosions.
-Mark Lemming
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 21:06:29 -0400
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: dive for cover question
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> Actually, the description of Dive For Cover doesn't say you have to use
>Leaping, or any other specific type of Movement, to get to where you're
>going. That's a bit of a hole in the rules, yes; but all GMs I've played
>with -- and most of the ones on the list, from what I gather -- do allow
>any Movement Power that the character has to be used for a Dive For Cover.
Well, if you're talking about House Rules here, then of course, anything
goes.
However, the Good Book says:
1. [Dive for Cover] enables the character to get out of the way of
explosions and area effect attacks.
2. A character can abort his next action to perform a defensive
Combat Maneuver or some other defensive action .... A character
can't normally abort to a movement action.
Here are my observations:
1. If you are going to ABORT to Dive for Cover, then you must follow
the Abort rules. Arguably, the "no movement" clause could prohibit
this maneuver, but we don't play it that way, and I don't think
anyone else does.
2. If you are just going to Dive for Cover as your regular action,
then you can use any movement power your heart desires. But what's
the point? If you have a whole action to use, then just use it to
get the hell out of the way of the attack. Hence, I will assume,
for the sake of this discussion that we are talking about ABORTING
to Dive for Cover.
3. Since you can't "normally" use a movement action in an abort, then
logically, you can't teleport 5" straight up (to link this tirade
to a previous post). I'm not exactly sure what they meant by
"normally", which obviously leads to some leeway.
4. I wouldn't apply the "no movement" ban to Dive for Cover, since
by its very nature, Dive for Cover is a movement. In particular,
it's a jump, which is covered under the strength rules. Depending
upon special effect, I could easily be talked into allowing Super
Leap. But since there does seem to be a prohibition against the
movement, I wouldn't allow other powers, such as Running, Teleport,
Tunneling, or Flight.
5. Interestingly enough, the Dive for Cover rules say nothing about
the character winding up prone. I think that everybody has just
interpreted it that way. This lends support for the idea mentioned
in another thread that a character with Acrobatics doesn't even have
to roll the dice ... he just ends up on his feet.
====================== =================================================
Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
====================== =================================================
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 21:13:16 -0400
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>> The book covers blind combat -- 0 OCV at range. No modifiers, I
>> would assume, since you have bought the power with NRM. All of
>> this, of course, is moot if you have ranged targeting senses other
>> than sight.
>
>
>Of course, this gives you a 0 OCV to hit a man-sized target at 10
>miles, even though you cannot see it, just because someone told you
>where it is and you have NRM on your power. That's ridiculous.
>
What? Are you telling me that some Champions rules aren't realistic?!
Personally, I find this an argument in favor of restricting the use
of NRM. A man-sized target at 10 miles? Sure -- the rules allow
it. But you'd better have a pretty damned good explanation of how
your character can pull something like that off.
====================== =================================================
Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
====================== =================================================
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 21:14:21 -0400
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 02:24 PM 6/2/98 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>Joe Mucchiello writes:
>> Clinging, Ranged. You "fly" through the city canyons clinging to the
>> nearby building walls and running along them.
>
>Um, no. The power is "Swinging".
Entirely different, with clinging you can stop in mid air. If you get
grabbed and thrown there will be collateral damage on the wall you were
clinging to.
Joe
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 18:28:57 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: dive for cover question
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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At 11:50 PM 6/2/1998 +0000, Mark Lemming wrote:
>Bob Greenwade wrote:
>> (For that matter, it doesn't even specify that you have to be able to
>> get where you're landing in a single Phase. "I Dive For Cover!" "Where
>> to?" "Singapore; we were headed to the airport to go there anyway..." OK,
>> we *can* use some common sense here....)
>
>Actually it's says you can not dive more than half your maximum movement. Of
>course it doesn't mention non-combat, phases or anything.
You're quite right, Mark. Last sentence of the first paragraph. (Boy,
does that spoil that joke!)
At the same time, that sentence only says, "A character can only Dive
for Cover up to have his maximum movement." It does not say what *kind* of
movement, and I'd tend to think that any sort of movement would be allowed
(it both "feels" logical and is how it tends to work in fiction, at least
that I've seen).
>My group plays it this way:
>
>Use any movement power. -1/1" for normal movement, Dex roll for T-Port
>If it's an abort, you decide how far you want to try before rolling. If
>you have a delay, roll first and see how far you go. We also allow you
>to make multiple dives at -2 after the first. (Just like blocking) You can
>continue to do this until you're out of movement.
Seems reasonable to me.
>We also assume that you're up when you reach your target hex.
Nah, from the description, I'd say the character is on his feet in the
target hex for purposes of anyone else's actions.
>We seem rather lenient, but it's worked for us. Probably has something to do
>with few teleporters and lots of explosions.
That could do it. :-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 21:34:14 -0400
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 11:25 AM 6/2/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> This brings to mind a hole in the Hero rules. If there have ever been
>any rules for missing your intended target and hitting something else, I
>don't know where it is. It is pretty obvious that if Pulsar is standing in
>front of a wall and Quantum looses a blast at him and misses, she's going
>to hit the wall. But with all the various possibilities in play, it'd be
>nice to have something solid to work with (especially since this very event
>is the excuse for making "Does No BODY" a -0 Limitation for Energy Blast).
When apprpriate to the situation, I've used 8- as the chance to hit someone
else when you miss. I apply along the entire line of the attack if there
are people in the way and the attack is gross (big) enough. Usually when
someone (i.e. big enough) is knocked back through a hex someone else
occupies. I make it an 8- to hit a man sized target in the hex.
It's not perfect (and I had a player who wanted skill levels in knockback
pinball) but when used sparingly, it can make for a funny moment.
Joe
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 21:36:10 -0400
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 06:47 PM 6/2/98 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>Bob Greenwade writes:
>> Despite the protests you're sure to get on this, Joe, I think that
>> this sounds like a really cool way to simulate reactive TK.
>
>Umm... try Stretching.
So with stretching I can stand 100 Hexes in the air and not occupy the
hexes below me? I'm holding on to the World Trade Center. I'm not
standing on the ground.
Joe
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 21:39:42 -0400
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com&> Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: dive for cover question
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 03:44 PM 6/2/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> Actually, the description of Dive For Cover doesn't say you have to use
>Leaping, or any other specific type of Movement, to get to where you're
>going. That's a bit of a hole in the rules, yes; but all GMs I've played
>with -- and most of the ones on the list, from what I gather -- do allow
>any Movement Power that the character has to be used for a Dive For Cover.
> (For that matter, it doesn't even specify that you have to be able to
>get where you're landing in a single Phase. "I Dive For Cover!" "Where
>to?" "Singapore; we were headed to the airport to go there anyway..." OK,
>we *can* use some common sense here....)
Actually, the book says "The character can only Dive for Cover up to half
of his maximum movement." (BBB p.155) Does sound like a movement power is
involved, though, doesn't it?
Joe
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 20:42:24 -0500
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
People talking about hitting man-sized targets at a distance of 10 miles
appear to be overlooking the ultimate range modifier: the curvature of the
Earth. In most cases, a target that small is going to vanish beyond the
horizon and no amount of telescopic vision (or simiar SFX for cancelling
range modifiers) is going to allow you to see it.
If you or the target are sufficiently tall or high up to bypass the
horizon, that's a different story of course. Somewhere around here I have
an easy method for figuring the distance to the apparent horizon, given the
height of the viewer above the surrounding terrain. Useful for things like
determing how close you have to sail to that island before the guy in the
crow's nest shouts "Land ho!"
I could look around for this and post it, but no doubt a few people here
already know how to do the calculation. Anyone?
Damon
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 21:44:06 -0400
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: dive for cover question
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 09:06 PM 6/2/98 -0400, Mike Christodoulou wrote:
[big snip]
> Tunneling, or Flight.
[smalled snip]
TUNNELING FOR COVER!!!
(Okay, so I laughed. :-)
I've got to make a character with tunnelling now.
Joe
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 21:44:23 -0400
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: dive for cover question
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 04:03 PM 6/2/98 -0400, Mike Christodoulou wrote:
>At 03:22 PM 6/2/98 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>Mike Christodoulou writes:
>>> No ... I don't think it can. Dive For Cover is an aborting action.
>>> You cannot abort to a teleport.
>>
>>Dive for Cover allows you to abort your action to move. Nowhere in the
>>descrioption of Dive for Cover is "jumping" specified as the only type of
>>movement allowed, nor where one moves to aside from "out of the area of
>>effect".
>
>That's correct. Diving, Jumping, Sidestepping, Rolling are all probably
>valid methods of DFC. However, the book DOES say that you cannot abort
>to a Movement power, e.g. Running, Teleport, Flight, etc. (REF: Abort
>rules.)
The same book says "The character can only Dive for Cover up to half of his
maximum movement." Sounds like a movement power is involved. (REF: Dive
for Cover rules.) So which movement power's maximum?
Joe
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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 01:49:37
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Filksinger writes:
>
> > So, for a -1/4 Limitation, I get greater flexibility, and no penalty of
> > which I am aware.
>
> > What, exactly, is the Limitation?
>
> If you wield the weapon with two hands, you cannot use a shield. That
> means your DCV is lower than if you wielded the weapon with one hand.
That's a disadvantage of using it two-handed, but how is it a disadvantage of having the _option_ to use it two-handed?
Take two men. Both have weapons that are identical, save that one is a 1 1/2 hand weapon, and the other is a 1 hand weapon. Now, assume that both men _always_ use their weapons one handed. They both get absolutely identical use out of their weapons. However, the man who has a 1 1/2 hand weapon adds an option he never uses (because he likes his shield), and for that added, never used option gets a -1/4 Limitation.
I'm sorry, but that "Limitation" doesn't limit the character. In no way does it prevent him from using the weapon _exactly_ like a one-handed weapon. It is not worth a Limitation, no matter how disadvantageous the additional option is. This is the same as saying, "I have a normal 10d6 EB, but I can also use my EB 0-Range, at x10 END, so I get a Limitation, right?" So long as the power w/o the Limitation does not gain _anything_ by not having the Limitation, it is not a Limitation.
Filksinger
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 21:50:46 -0400
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: dive for cover question
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 09:06 PM 6/2/98 -0400, Mike Christodoulou wrote:
>1. [Dive for Cover] enables the character to get out of the way of
> explosions and area effect attacks.
>2. A character can abort his next action to perform a defensive
> Combat Maneuver or some other defensive action .... A character
> can't normally abort to a movement action.
So, you are saying that Spider Man cannot see Hobgoblin's Pumpkin bomb
being thrown and react by twip-ing out a swing line and swinging away just
before the bomb goes off unless he has a held action?
Joe
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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 01:58:45
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Filksinger writes:
>
> > Of course, this gives you a 0 OCV to hit a man-sized target at 10
> > miles, even though you cannot see it, just because someone told you
> > where it is and you have NRM on your power. That's ridiculous.
>
> > So, now that you found what the rules say, what makes sense?
>
> Well, if he could make a targeting sense roll, and be able to hit the
> target 10 miles away at normal OCV -- that is, with no range modifiers --
> why is it that if he fails said targeting sense roll he is suddenly hit
> with range modifier penalties? Whether or not he makes the sense roll has
> no bearing on his range modifiers or lack thereof. It *ONLY* affects his
> OCV.
So, you are saying that a NRM attack fired by a blind man from 3,000 miles should have the same chance to hit as a NRM fired by a blind man only 10 feet away, even though he has no way of sensing the target? Does he at least have to determine the location of the target's hex in relation to him first? If so, how much harder is it to determine the relationship of that hex to the power-user when the hex is farther away? Does AK of the target's location, combined with up to the second information as to where he is standing, "John, I'm so glad I got hold of you in New York. There is a dangerous man sitting in your easy chair in Los Angeles. Would you please shoot him?" This would give the man in New York a better than 60% chance of hitting the man in Los Angeles, shooting blind. if he takes no penalties in either determining the target hex's location in relation to himself or in the form of Range Modifiers.
Filksinger
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 19:00:53 -0700
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <scm@mactyre.net>
Subject: Re: dive for cover question
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 03:44 PM 6/2/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> Actually, the description of Dive For Cover doesn't say you have to use
>Leaping, or any other specific type of Movement, to get to where you're
>going. That's a bit of a hole in the rules, yes; but all GMs I've played
>with -- and most of the ones on the list, from what I gather -- do allow
>any Movement Power that the character has to be used for a Dive For Cover.
> (For that matter, it doesn't even specify that you have to be able to
>get where you're landing in a single Phase. "I Dive For Cover!" "Where
>to?" "Singapore; we were headed to the airport to go there anyway..." OK,
>we *can* use some common sense here....)
We've always approached things from the perspective that if the SFX made
sense, it was good to go. We've allowed teleport to be used for
dive-for-cover in some games, but not others. (I think I was the one who
allowed it; I'm a big pushover when it comes to the "can I do X?"
questions). =)
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
http://www.mactyre.net
A flung stone has always been a fool's favorite means of putting himself on
a level with the wise.
-- Edgar Pangborn
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Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 22:03:29 -0400 (EDT)
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Grant Enfield <genfield@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Claws (was How Complicated is Champions?)
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grant wrote:
>>>For example:
>>>The power HKA, O END, Reduced Pentration may be good to use for animal
>>>claws, while HKA, O END, Area Effect Hex may be good for large monsters
>>like
>>>dragons or something. You find the KIND of power you want, then buy as
>>many
>>>DCs as you wish.
>>
Steven Mitchell wrote:
>>This is actually how most of my own components currently look. I've been
>>assuming lists because that is how weapons are presented. I suppose it is
>>really an editorial decision, based on the amount of space and how
>>complicated the table is. The one thing you do lose with a table is the
>>host of specific example tied to a DC--depending on the component, that may
>>or may not be a problem.
Bob Greenwade wrote:
> Basically, a reasonable range of DCs should be included.
> Take the aforementioned Shoulder Cannon II example from TUSV. There are
>actually four classes of Shoulder Cannon. SC-I does 3d6, SC-II does 4d6,
>SC-III does 5d6, and SC-IV does 6d6. All of them are otherwise built
>identically.
These are equipment, presumably from a lengthy equipment list for your
campaign and like the weapons list found in Fastasy Hero, the Babylon 5
weapon designs that have popped up on this list, or a list of arcane
talismans for a World-of-Darkness-LITE! campaign. Not very much at all like
a list of animal claws, teeth, or spikes-on-their-tails.
Understood in this list list of equipment are the campaign limits for
attacks and defenses, the special effects for campaign weapons and defenses,
and the tone for the campaign milieu. This list of Shoulder Cannons is,
IMHO, campaign specific. It's value outside your campaign is that I may
steal from it wholesale or modify it for use in my own, similar campaign.
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Grant Enfield <genfield@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: How Complicated is Champions? (LONG)
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grant wrote:
>>I believe these lists of powers-as-special-effects, or "components," as
>>Steven Mitchell has called them, are actually the "components" for specific
>>campaigns. I would be interested in seeing HERO publish campaign books.
>>Doesn't GURPS have a zillion books for every possible camapign?
Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>Nah, only hundreds. :-) While this would be nice, someone still has to do
>the writing and editing and layout and then you have to get people to buy
>them. Post your campaign to a web site. It would be more effective. And
>it would be a resource that you know your players would be able to get to.
>("Why didn't you check the web site?" needles the GM.)
This seems like a great idea to me, especially if people had
well-publicized, well-put-together, and fairly standard sites.
The lists of stuff idea only has as much value to me as what I can
relatively easily crib outright or simply modify to fit my own campaign. A
bunch more "official HERO Universe" stuff eliminates other,
not-for-use-with-the-HERO-Universe stuff that I could steal.
In short, let the HERO Universe stuff go. Give me easy access to a zillion
different campaigns' elements because that gives me more to steal.
Who's with me? (Shoplifters of the world unite. . . )
grant
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Grant Enfield <genfield@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
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Steven Mitchell wrote:
>I prefer terse writing, also. (And if that surprises you based on by posts
>to the list--remember I said I prefer it, not that I'm good at it off the
>cuff.) Preferring terse is why I like A better than B--on an actual
>creature listing.
>
>A: Claw, DC 3, rdcd pen.
>B: Claw. HKA 1d6 (15 base), rdcd pen -1/4, 15 Active, 12 Real.
Actually, for character sheets I personally prefer something even more
verbose than "B." I've looked at write-ups of published characters and
often struggled to figure out what a particular power is supposed to *be*:
is that a fireball, arcane energies, what exactly is supposed to be going on
there?
My own characters and those of many of my players list a name for the power
(presumably one that describes what the power looks like, such as "Superfast
Combat Sprint") followed by the description of how the power has been built
("10-inch Stretching, No Non-combat stretch, only to places he can run").
Both of these are essential to the character. The first lets the player and
anybody else know what the Power is, the second lets us all know how it works.
I'd emphasize the first description because I can quickly grasp what's
happening: the player says, "I'll run over and grab his gun using my
Superfast Combat Sprint." The second lets me know what the mechanics are.
As another example, I tried to get my wife involved in our game. The
character sheet has her completely confused.
"I want to shoot that agent," she says.
"So shoot him," I say.
"With what?"
I point.
"What's a 12D6 EB?"
"Those are your eye-beams."
"Oh."
So let's not get rid of one or the other. I like them both.
grant
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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 02:06:49
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
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> From: aregalad@miami.edu
>
>
> > Of course, this gives you a 0 OCV to hit a man-sized target at 10
> > miles, even though you cannot see it, just because someone told you
> > where it is and you have NRM on your power. That's ridiculous.
> >
> > So, now that you found what the rules say, what makes sense?
>
> Why is it ridiculous? I think it really depends on special effect. If the
> NRM on the power comes from the fact that the weapon has a guidance system
> that negates range, then it isn't so ridiculous. If the NRM is somehow a
> product of the character's sight, then obviously you might want to negate
> the advantage altogether.
If it is a weapon that has a guidance system, how do you tell it where to go? You
have to be able to tell it exactly what hex to strike, which is very difficult to do at great
distanceswhen blindfolded. If the weapon is capable of taking, "Strike the guy in black
who is standing by the mailbox at 24279 E. Hill St.", then the weapon is beyond NRM.
If not, then we need a way of determining how well your character can tell the weapon
to strike a particular location he cannot sense.
Filksinger
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Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 22:14:56 -0400
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Anime Hero
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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> IMHO Running Anime hero would mean the GM and players deciding on an
Anime
> style for the game and designing the characters and stories to match. A
> list of Anime type disadvantes could be inspired by BESM and other Anime
> like RPGs.
For what it's worth, there is a recurring event at GenCon called Anime
Hero, basically a heroic level game with a few easily explained house
rules. I only played in it once (the first year, I believe), but it was
well done, and the GM had a significant amount of home-made anime-style
artwork to show at crucial points. All in all, I thought it captured the
feel of the genre well.
Jeff Reid
Morfhis@compuserve.com
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Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 22:15:00 -0400
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: Acrobatics
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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> Breakfall (a fairly specific skill)? Does it make sense to have
Breakfall
> without having Acrobatics?
I snipped the rest of this post because I think others have answered it
thoroughly and well. As to this question, I have a character who has
Breakfall but not Acrobatics -- the character's main mode of transportation
is a motorcycle, and he has the Psych Lim: Reckless. I figured he's had
plenty of opportunity to learn how to take a spill, although the flips and
tumbles of Acrobatics doesn't fit his conception.
Another example that comes to mind is from when I took Aikido lessons. One
of the first things they taught us was rudimentary Breakfall, and I suspect
this is true for many, if not most, martial arts as well.
Jeff Reid
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From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 22:16:02 -0400
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Subject: Sad news.
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Was just checking out the Herogame web age and saw they had posted a bit of sad
news.
For those of you haven't heard, Mark Williams passed away on May 27, 1998 after
complications connected with cancer surgery.
If you're new to the Champions scene you may not remember Mark Williams. He was
the original illustrator for the Champions game book, and many of his illustrations can
still be found in the 4th edition BBB.
For more information at Mark WIlliams life (and unfortunate death) you might want to
check out the full article over at www.herogames.com.
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Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 22:32:29 -0400
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
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> Personally, I find this an argument in favor of restricting the use
> of NRM. A man-sized target at 10 miles? Sure -- the rules allow
> it. But you'd better have a pretty damned good explanation of how
> your character can pull something like that off.
Hey, as far as I'm concerned, if the attacker can "see" (i.e. perceive with
a targeting sense) a man-sized target at 10 miles (a big "if," considering
that the Range mods for the PER Roll is in the neighborhood of -2000!), and
he happens to have an attack with both the No Range Modifiers advantage and
enough Increased Maximum Range to reach it, I say more power to him!
If he >can't< perceive the target, he has no chance of hitting it because
he has no idea where to shoot.
Jeff Reid
Morfhis@compuserve.com
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 19:56:46 -0700
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Acrobatics
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At 10:15 PM 6/2/1998 -0400, Jeff M. Reid wrote:
>> Breakfall (a fairly specific skill)? Does it make sense to have
>Breakfall
>> without having Acrobatics?
>
>I snipped the rest of this post because I think others have answered it
>thoroughly and well. As to this question, I have a character who has
>Breakfall but not Acrobatics -- the character's main mode of transportation
>is a motorcycle, and he has the Psych Lim: Reckless. I figured he's had
>plenty of opportunity to learn how to take a spill, although the flips and
>tumbles of Acrobatics doesn't fit his conception.
>
>Another example that comes to mind is from when I took Aikido lessons. One
>of the first things they taught us was rudimentary Breakfall, and I suspect
>this is true for many, if not most, martial arts as well.
Speaking for myself, this particular part of the post slipped right by;
my mind treated the question as buried under a bunch of other stuff.
As to your points of the question, another situation that would give at
least Familiarity with Breakfall would be klutziness. Someone who trips
over things and falls down a lot soon learns how to do it without getting
hurt. (I'm speaking from personal experience here.)
---
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 20:01:01 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: dive for cover question
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At 09:44 PM 6/2/1998 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>At 09:06 PM 6/2/98 -0400, Mike Christodoulou wrote:
>[big snip]
>> Tunneling, or Flight.
>[smalled snip]
>
>TUNNELING FOR COVER!!!
>
>(Okay, so I laughed. :-)
So did I -- though the idea does have merit (and precedent)....
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 22:10:49 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
To: filkhero@usa.net
CC: Hero List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll: Line of Sight
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Filksinger wrote:
> From: Ross Rannells
> >
> > Filksinger wrote:
> >
> <snip>
> >
> > So you and I don't read into the ustated parts of the rules same way. The
> > way it appears to
> > me is that the location of the target needs to be known. Whether the location
> > is thruough
> > seeing the target (line of sight) or locating it through (mind scan). Either
> > way once the
> > location is known, other mental powers may be used.
>
> That is one interpretation. However, I believe it to be a false one. Under that
> interpretation, the ability to hear a target on the other side of the wall would be "line
> of sight". I believe that is stretching "line of sight" way to far.
>
I believe it to be true, so we are at an impass. Can we agree to disagree?
> >Under your interpretation,
> > where line of
> > sight is key and mind scan just a substitution for line of sight. Then live
> > video feeds would
> > not be of any help to an egoist who hasn't bought specific advantages on their
> > powers. Where as
> > in my interpretation, locating the targets mind is key and either mind scan or
> > line of sight
> > will is suffiecient for this. Then a video feed that gives suffiecient (as
> > ruled by the GM)
> > would allow for the attack. The reason I like this interpetation is that it
> > opens up a whole
> > new set of complications for the heros to deal with.
>
> It also gives mentalists a massive increase in power, heavily unbalancing a game. People
> with Desolidification can attack while untouchable, but pay a +2 Advantage on every power
> used under these circumstances, need to buy special weaknesses to their invulnerability,
> are vulnerable to Powers with Affects Desolidification, and have to pay END. A mentalist
> attacking people on TV gets all of these benefits without any of these limitations, and
> gets it for free. Mentalists who want abilities like this have to pay for them with Mind
> Scan now, which has it's own problems, but this gives it away for free.
>
It's only unbalancing if the GM allows it be. Once again, all I've said is the possiblity
exists to use the powers. Start he mentalist out at a zero ecv for firing blind then knock
off three to five more for their familiarity with the area and your looking at a 3 to 5 to hit
a normal, roughlt 1 chance in 21. If your crative with the negitives you should be able to
get it down to 1 in 216 (ie a 3) fairly easily. Which is roughly the chance of disabling a
tank with small arms fire (0.5% was the estimate I read).
> You want this ability? Fine. Buy Clairvoyance, IPE, only to see locations he can already
> see on TV (-2), only for targeting mental powers (-1), with a range to cover the Earth.
> This should cost about 200 Active points and 50 Real Points, which is about what such a
> potent power would be worth. Keep in mind that other limitations such as "Needs in depth
> knowledge of location of target, either by KS: of target's location or careful
> measurement" would bring it down more. Alternatives include a similarly limited Mind Scan,
> or a bonus to Mind Scan if it is already purchased.
>
> Filksinger
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 22:21:07 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll: Line of Sight
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
> At 12:04 PM 5/31/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote:
> >Bob Greenwade wrote:
> >
> >> About your construct for a TV, I'm going to say something that I say
> >> rather rarely -- and, in fact, this is the first time I'm aware of having
> >> ever said it on this List:
> >> Your way of constructing it is wrong. Absolutely, totally wrong.
> >> Telescopic Vision reduces Range Penalties for the distance between the
> >> viewer and the target. This is not the effect of a TV system *at all.*
> >
> >My mistake. I wasn't clear enough here. The telescopi vision I was
> refering to
> >is that of the zoom lense on the camera. The camera itself is a point of
> >Clairasentience that has telescopic vision. Anything in front of the camera
> >lence is blocked. After looking back over my posts, I realize I never
> maid this
> >clear. I apologize for my inaccuracy.
>
> Actually, By The Book, Clairvoyance in any form cannot be used to target
> an attack. As has been discussed and agreed to here, it can be used to
> gather enough information to make an educated guess as to where a "blind"
> attack should be aimed, but that's not the same as targeting (in Hero terms).
> (Apology accepted.) :-]
>
> >> Now, despite the fact that's it's not strictly By The Book, I would
> >> allow Clairvoyance to be bought with Targeting. This is what the
> >> cross-hairs on your missile targeting systems would provide. Using a
> >> crystal ball to target long-distance magic spells is another Special Effect
> >> for this. But in either case, the targeting would have to be built into
> >> the Clairvoyance as a special case, not as the default way of doing it.
> >
> >The crosshairs are not clairavoyence they are skill levels. That's what a
> HUD
> >does, it gives you a better chance to hit by giving you better information
> about
> >the target you are shooting at. The base system (ie no additional skill
> levels)
> >is just a linve video feed to the eyepiece. The computer then adds
> details and
> >information to increase the gunners chance to hit, ie add skill levels. The
> >weapon can be targeted and fired without the use of this equipment, its just
> >that the possibility of successfully hitting the target is greatly reduced.
>
> No, the crosshairs are not Clairvoyance.
I never said it was.
> The TV system itself (actually
> the camera) is Clairvoyance.
I spent a lot of time tinking about this on airplanes and a hotel room. I think
it is the system both the monitor and camera that make up the Clairvoyance power.
The problem I keep running into is that radar and sonar guided weapons work on the
same principle. So why is sight treated differently?
> The crosshairs are the system which turns the
> Clairvoyance into a Targeting Sense. Otherwise the gunner is just
> extrapolating information into educated guesswork.
A reasonable explanation that I would accept if it were not for the problem with
Radar and Sonar.
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 22:38:08 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
To: Firelynx16@aol.com
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll: Line of Sight
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Firelynx16@aol.com wrote:
> They are separate things. To attack, mentalists must be able to see their
> targets. Mind Scan supersedes this requirement. When MS is established, it
> becomes a Targeting Sense.
>
> 'Lynx
I see then as two parts of the same thing (Parsimony/Occums Razor). So I guess
we will have to agree to disagree.
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 20:53:53 -0700
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com>
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com
Organization: None
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> -
> The weekend? This thing has been going on for two *weeks*. :)
>
Yeah but I managed to ignore it until now.
BTW would the limited flight require a "Climing" Skill.
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 22:55:38 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
To: Pat10355@aol.com
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Military Weapon Designations
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Pat10355@aol.com wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm working on a project in which I'm creating some futuristic military
> weapons, such as lasers and gauss weapons, not to mention vehicles and other
> gear.
>
> I'm wondering how military designations, such as M-16 rifles and M1A1 Abrams
> tanks, are assigned. Is there any kind of system or organization to this at
> all?
>
> If anyone with military experience or knowledge can give me some information
> on this, I'd really appreciate it.
>
> Thanks,
> Patrick Sweeney
Military desinations start out as a numbering system for bidding on
contracts. The branch holding the bid selects a letter to signify the item
(I've never heard how M go selected for rifles and tanks) being bid on. Each
bidder is then assigned a number. The starting number is usually the first
number after the last number used in the previous bidding for the same item.
The ATF planes were assigned F-22 and F-23 since F-21 was the last figher bid
the USAF had recieved (the F-21 lost to the F-20). The numbering scheme for
fighters gets even more complicated since the loser of the bid will usually
modify the loosing plane for carrier use and then try to sell the plane to the
Navy. When this happens a new number is assigned to what basically is the same
plane. What makes it even more comfusing is that the military can restart
numbering whenever they want to. Like the move from the M-60 to the M-1 tanks
and the B-1 Bomber. The reason the B1 and B2 follow each other in sequence is
that there was no competitive bidding on those projects. The letters after the
numbers (like the A1 on the M1 and the A through E on the F15) are sequence
designations, usually denoting modifications and or upgrades from the basic
models.
In short you could give any numeric assignment you want to your weapons and have
it fit, since the designations are are basically random assignments (based on
when the bid arrived at the Pentagon) by men with lots of stars on their
shoulders.
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 23:21:09 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
To: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
CC: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Acrobatics
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David Stallard wrote:
> I've been seeing some talk about Acrobatics in the "Dive for Cover" thread,
> which reminded me of some questions I have about its use.
>
> Acrobatics has always been a popular skill for the PCs in my group, but
> I've found that it hardly ever gets used...it seems that the players like
> the idea of having an agile character, but they don't know how to take
> advantage of it once they have it.
>
> * If Acrobatics is commonly used in your campaign, what are some examples?
> Is it generally used so that they can get small bonuses in combat? What
> bonuses do you generally give for acrobatic maneuvers? One common maneuver
> I've seen is to flip over an opponent to get behind him, then attack from
> behind for a bonus. Another is to leapfrog a teammate to attack a
> villain...the villain didn't see you coming from behind the teammate, so
> you get a bonus. That's about all I can think of that I've seen...only had
> one player who was inventive with Acrobatics.
>
In my games Acrobatics is most often used as the excuse for bying thing based
on skill. I've OK'ed DCV, Superleap and Running based on Acrobatics. Just
don't firget to apply the negitves do to the active points that are being based
on the skill. The +2 DCV and 4" of running give a -2 on the acrobatics roll.
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From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Anime Hero
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 00:27:14 -0400 (EDT)
Organization: VTSFFC
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>
> fun system but it is not Anime Hero. The cournerstone of BESM is it's
> minimalistic rules system. A large amount depends on player and GM
I've seen BESM a little myself, and it wasn't for an Anime game, the
GM was using it for what he called "Call of Cthulu-ish". Can't comment
directly on the translation, as I've never played CoC. It did a reasonable
job of simulating the important bits of Baron Rudolph von Wolfenstein III,
a 1000-point 'normal' used to beta-test the GURPS BlackOps book. Not a
great job, but then BlackOps characters are deliberably bizzare. :-)
Daniel Pawtowski
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From: aregalad@miami.edu
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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 00:32:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
To: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Cc: aregalad@miami.edu, Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net&> champ-l@sysabend.org
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> What we need to remember here is the the maximum range for most powers is 5
> times there acive points. So a 50 point power has a range or 250 hexes or half
> a kilometer. The NRM may negate the effects of range modifiers bu it does
> not extend the maximum range of the power. For a 50 EB to hit a target 10
> miles away, it would take three levels of extended range for the power to be
> able to reach the target. That along with the NRM make the 10D6 attack cost
> 112 points.
That too. :]
Dragonfly
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 23:37:52 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
To: aregalad@miami.edu
CC: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net&> champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
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aregalad@miami.edu wrote:
> > Of course, this gives you a 0 OCV to hit a man-sized target at 10
> > miles, even though you cannot see it, just because someone told you
> > where it is and you have NRM on your power. That's ridiculous.
> >
> > So, now that you found what the rules say, what makes sense?
>
> Why is it ridiculous? I think it really depends on special effect. If the
> NRM on the power comes from the fact that the weapon has a guidance system
> that negates range, then it isn't so ridiculous. If the NRM is somehow a
> product of the character's sight, then obviously you might want to negate
> the advantage altogether.
>
> Dragonfly
What we need to remember here is the the maximum range for most powers is 5
times there acive points. So a 50 point power has a range or 250 hexes or half
a kilometer. The NRM may negate the effects of range modifiers bu it does
not extend the maximum range of the power. For a 50 EB to hit a target 10
miles away, it would take three levels of extended range for the power to be
able to reach the target. That along with the NRM make the 10D6 attack cost
112 points.
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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 00:40:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
To: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
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>
> If it is a weapon that has a guidance system, how do you tell it where to go? You
> have to be able to tell it exactly what hex to strike, which is very difficult to do at great
> distanceswhen blindfolded. If the weapon is capable of taking, "Strike the guy in black
> who is standing by the mailbox at 24279 E. Hill St.", then the weapon is beyond NRM.
> If not, then we need a way of determining how well your character can tell the weapon
> to strike a particular location he cannot sense.
Maybe the targeting system is defined as a computer built into a power
suit that automatically targets opponents once the character enters into
target. Although the battle suit still benifits from the character being
able to direct the attack, the blinded character says "Nuts! I'm blinded!
Computer, fire rockets at target number 3! God, I hope that hits!"
OR, maybe the "guidance system" is an enchanted weapon. All I'm really
saying is that it all depends on special effect, so I'm not sure that
you can have a meaningful discussion aobut what "makes sense" without
talking about a specific special effect. I could be wrong, but those are
my $.02 for what they are worth.
Dragonfly
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 23:50:52 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
To: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
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Filksinger wrote:
> > From: aregalad@miami.edu
> >
> >
> > > Of course, this gives you a 0 OCV to hit a man-sized target at 10
> > > miles, even though you cannot see it, just because someone told you
> > > where it is and you have NRM on your power. That's ridiculous.
> > >
> > > So, now that you found what the rules say, what makes sense?
> >
> > Why is it ridiculous? I think it really depends on special effect. If the
> > NRM on the power comes from the fact that the weapon has a guidance system
> > that negates range, then it isn't so ridiculous. If the NRM is somehow a
> > product of the character's sight, then obviously you might want to negate
> > the advantage altogether.
>
> If it is a weapon that has a guidance system, how do you tell it where to go? You
> have to be able to tell it exactly what hex to strike, which is very difficult to do at great
> distanceswhen blindfolded. If the weapon is capable of taking, "Strike the guy in black
> who is standing by the mailbox at 24279 E. Hill St.", then the weapon is beyond NRM.
> If not, then we need a way of determining how well your character can tell the weapon
> to strike a particular location he cannot sense.
>
> Filksinger
A weapon that you tell to go attack a location wuold probably need some sort of intellighence to
guide it. I missle with a built in computer that would have to understand your language, have
some targetting sense to and be able to use it, be able to pilot itself, have knowledge of the
area being attacked and have weapon familiarity and skill levels in its warhead. If the computer
has an ego or not may also come into play. I've found that the best way to build such attacks is
either and automaton or vehicle with a computer rather then NRM. With the automaton/vehicle you
also are freed from that maximum range rule also.
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Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 01:01:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Reply-To: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
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On Tue, 2 Jun 1998, Bryant Berggren wrote:
> At 12:04 AM 6/2/98 -0400, Len Carpenter wrote:
> >> There are many weapons that cannot be used one-handed, regardless of
> >> strength. The actual length of the weapon is usally the deciding
> >> factor.
> >
> >On the mark. Not even Conan could wield a 20' pike like a 1-handed
> >stabbing spear.
>
> Yes, but could Superman? (Or, to retain fantasy, could Hercules?)
Yes. They have sufficent STR to be able to move the weapon around.
Still, even with Conan's 25 STR (which is what I gave him) a 20' pike
would be too unwieldy to use effectively).
> Personally, I'd prefer to see "2-handed" as a limitation reserved
> solely for those weapons which require 2 hands by design (a bow),
> rather than by practicality (a pollaxe); weapons which are two-handed
> by reason of weight and balance seem to me better represented by
> obscene STR minima, lowered if you use two hands. Of course, the
> problem there is that the usual one/two hand difference (+/-5 STR --
> this principle is used in both STR minima and gripping STR in
> different books, IIRC) is too small to create a weapon usable
> two-handed by normals and not usable one-handed by Conan.
I disagree with the need for 'obscene STR minima', as I feel it is very
unrealistic and silly. As Len pointed out in an earlier post, 18 STR for
a halberd is way to high. I think the problem rises from the factor that
'2-handed' is a -1/2 limitation, meaniung that 1 1/2 hands fits in at
-1/4. But, there isn't much of a disadvantage about using a 1 1/2 weapon
two-handed. Sure you can't use a shield, but that's why one wears armor.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
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Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 01:17:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
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On Tue, 2 Jun 1998, Grant Enfield wrote:
> As another example, I tried to get my wife involved in our game. The
> character sheet has her completely confused.
>
> "I want to shoot that agent," she says.
> "So shoot him," I say.
> "With what?"
> I point.
> "What's a 12D6 EB?"
> "Those are your eye-beams."
> "Oh."
>
> So let's not get rid of one or the other. I like them both.
Hero System's new character sheet design is supposed to get rid of this
problem. I've adapted it for all my character sheets now and posts to
this list will iuse the same layout. Each power group will gets a header
(like Psychokinetic Powers), while each individual power gets a name as
well (like Telekinetic Sheild). There are also specific rules about
grouping skills sets together (example: one Kazei 5 characters had Bounty
Hunter Skills, Ex-police Skills and Background SKills listed on the
character sheet). The format works well in my opinion since it names each
power and forces the designer to define the SFX of each poer rather than
just write in 10d6 EB.
Here is an example (from my Kazei 5 manuscript) of how this looks written
out:
Hiroko O'Hara (street samurai)
Implanted Cyberware
Smartgun Link: +2 OCV and +1 Range Modifier, Uses an External
Cable (-1/2), Requires Smartlinked Weapon (-1/2), Poor Quality
Cybersystem (-1/2) (5)
Damaged Nerve Endings
Damage Reduction: 1/2 Energy and Physical, Resistant,
Stun Only (-1/2), Only if Stun Damage Exceeds Hiroko's
CON (-1/2) (30)
Equipment:
Colt Mark IV with Smartgun Adaptor: RKA: 1 1/2D6, +1 Stun, +1 OCV,
2 clips of 16 shots, STR Minimum, OAF (22) [2x16c]
Now, notice that some limitations are not given values. The idea is that
anything one cvan look up in the BBB (such as OAF) wou don't give a lim
value to. All other game/character specific lims (like the Cybersystem
lim) have the value listed.
The character seehts when printed work well since each power header (like
Equipment) is in bold as well as each power name. My only beef is that
the point value for each power is over on the right (is the (22) for the
Colt Mark IV) making it hard to instantly assess the character's point
value.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
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Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 01:22:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Sad news.
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On Tue, 2 Jun 1998, John Desmarais wrote:
> For those of you haven't heard, Mark Williams passed away on May 27,
> 1998 after
> complications connected with cancer surgery.
Although I never cared much for Mark's art (and even Bruce Harlick called
him 'the famous hack') Mark's work does bring back many fond memeories.
He's the guy responsible for Foxbat for starters. The story has it that
Mark was whipping up the cover to Enemies II and Bruce wanted to know who
the guy was. Mark said 'I dunno, but he looks cool' and Bruce thought *I
need to write this guy up... quick!* The rest is, as they say, history.
And of course, who can forget the infamous 'curving eyebeams' of
Holocaust, the guy from the cover of the orginal Champions rulebook?
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
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Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 01:23:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Military Weapon Designations
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On Tue, 2 Jun 1998, Ross Rannells wrote:
> Military desinations start out as a numbering system for bidding on
> contracts. The branch holding the bid selects a letter to signify the item
> (I've never heard how M go selected for rifles and tanks) being bid on. Each
My guess is that M = military. Much like GI = government issue.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 23:31:32 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: Champs List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Heroes Lethality
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
> I don't know who this Bob Greenwood person is, but everything I can
Careless error: my apologies. I hope that no offense was taken.
find
> that directly quotes your work has your full name on it....
There have been a couple of posts that have responded to my rejoinder to
a comment about something I said, and which refer to the original
material as "someone said," and I felt like poking fun.
Obviously, I failed both my spelling and my humor skill rolls this time.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
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To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Sign off..
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 00:08:12 -0700
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Hate to do this, but I'm on too many lists.. My server's yelling at me for
having too many messages... I need to sign off, and, of course, I've lost
the list serv address.. Could someone help me out with it..?
WGR
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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 00:14:33 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Lighter Characters (was Poll: Champions Dialogue #2.)
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> I think I misused "mechanic". The point is that a Limitation should not
> change how a power fundamentally works. The Limitation in question does
> that: it ties Flight speed with mass. Yes, it makes that Flight less
> Effective, but it does so in a way that it probably should not. And it
> does it in a rather sloppy fashion: how did the 1" Flight (2AP) = 5
> Strength (5AP) formula come into being, and why the obvious dichotomy in
> active points?
In no particular order, and not covering everything that you seem to be
confused about:
1) You misquote the "formula:" 1" Flight(-1) (1 CP) = 1 STR (1 CP).
2) An equivalence of 2" Movement = + 1 STR is given on HSR p. 142. The
more favorable ratio was based on comparison with the cost of Shrinking.
3) As stated in the part of the post that you ignored, the Limitation
does not rely on an equivalence between Flight and STR. One can equally
well use a minimum buy of flight to reduce effective mass to any level
predetermined by the special effect. It just seemed appropriate that
different strengths of effect should take different point values, and
imposing a minimum buy seems the obvious way to do this.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 00:37:10 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: dive for cover question
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Mike Christodoulou wrote:
>
> >Dive for Cover allows you to abort your action to move. Nowhere in the
> >descrioption of Dive for Cover is "jumping" specified as the only type of
> >movement allowed, nor where one moves to aside from "out of the area of
> >effect".
>
> That's correct. Diving, Jumping, Sidestepping, Rolling are all probably
> valid methods of DFC. However, the book DOES say that you cannot abort
> to a Movement power, e.g. Running, Teleport, Flight, etc. (REF: Abort
> rules.)
As you, yourself, point out in another post, the rules qualify this by
saying "normally." The word, "normally" is there for a reason -- there
are clearly abnormal conditions that might permit aborting to a movement
power, presumably to perform some action that we want to allow for, but
that cannot be performed without using movement.
The rules all make sense if we read "normally" as allowing an exception
for Dive for Cover, which is, after all, an *optional* manoeuvre, and
therefore is not "normal."
If we make the opposite assumption, it becomes difficult to see how to
use Dive for Cover at all. Leaping, even using one's normal STR to leap,
and running are clearly movement powers. The fact that they are
*everyman* powers does not exclude them from being powers.
Why is there a rule against aborting to a movement power? It would be
dramatically inappropriate and just plain strange to allow a character to
charge into or flee from battle on an abort. In contrast, Dive for Cover
is unlikely to be abused in this way, because of the 1/2 combat movement
rule, and because the character has to "hit" the hex he is aiming for. I
would also require that Dive for Cover represent straight line movement
or a ballistic trajectory (as a leap), which reduces the potential for
abuse.
Now, if I am to choose between two interpretations, one of which
produces a sensible result, and the other of which turns a published rule
in the BBB into a nullity, I will choose the former interpretation.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 04:32:17 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Organization: Satan's Children
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Acrobatics
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David Stallard wrote:
>
> I've been seeing some talk about Acrobatics in the "Dive for Cover" thread,
> which reminded me of some questions I have about its use.
>
> Acrobatics has always been a popular skill for the PCs in my group, but
> I've found that it hardly ever gets used...it seems that the players like
> the idea of having an agile character, but they don't know how to take
> advantage of it once they have it.
>
> * If Acrobatics is commonly used in your campaign, what are some examples?
> Is it generally used so that they can get small bonuses in combat? What
> bonuses do you generally give for acrobatic maneuvers? One common maneuver
> I've seen is to flip over an opponent to get behind him, then attack from
> behind for a bonus. Another is to leapfrog a teammate to attack a
> villain...the villain didn't see you coming from behind the teammate, so
> you get a bonus. That's about all I can think of that I've seen...only had
> one player who was inventive with Acrobatics.
When I play a character with Acrobatics (which is often), I am very
aware of using his/her skilled agility for combat bonuses such as
unexpected or surprise maneuvers. I don't as often see that from
players in games I run.
> * It seems as if "being flamboyant for the sake of it" and doing flips and
> whatnot is not a smart move, since it introduces one more chance to fail.
> Perhaps this is why my players don't use it regularly.... Do you see the
> same attitude in your games?
The most common thought process I see is to buy Acrobatics as a skill
to replace DEX rolls in difficult agility feats. I would also allow
Acrobaticsto improve a character's 'coordinated attack' roll (to have
two characters attack simultaneously to add STUN damage together for
stunning purposes)
> * If a PC fails an Acrobatics roll, do they fall on their face and lose the
> rest of their phase, or is this too harsh? As with many aspects of
> superheroing, we often don't get to see the results of a "failed roll" when
> we go to the source (comic books), since failure is much less common in the
> comics. There's nothing worse than having your highly-trained Acrobat do a
> simple manuever and fail miserably.
An Acrobatics roll failed usually does produce resulting penalties.
Attempting to do a fancy maneuver holds a different dynamic than a
'regular' maneuver, so a failed roll would make a little more difficult
to recoup, but the very possesion of the Acro skill should keep the
reprecussions small. Of course a BADLY failed Acro roll can be a lot of
fun for a GM... Also remember, that Simple Maneuvers probably have
plusses to the roll as modifiers, so failed 'simple maneuvers' are
somewhat rare
> * If Acrobatics can be used in a similar manner as Breakfall (from other
> threads, it sounds like most people do this whether or not it is official),
> then what's the point of having a Breakfall skill at all? Why not just
> expand the definition of Acrobatics (a fairly broad skill) to contain
> Breakfall (a fairly specific skill)? Does it make sense to have Breakfall
> without having Acrobatics?
I have always seen the seperation of Acrobatics and Breakfall to
reflect a generally 'OCV/DCV' type split. Acro is useful when attacking
or attempting to _do_ something, while Breakfall is generally used to
defend or prevent damage or penalties from an attack or incident. I
have always allowed the purchase of 3rd ed. Acrobatics (10 pts. +1 per 2
pts.) for those who would have opther wise bought Acro _and_ Breakfall.
I don't remember if this was an official rule or not, but I also allow -
with 3rd ed. Acrobatics - an 'Acrobatic Dodge', which gives Dodge a +2
with a successful Acro roll. It basically gives a Martial Dodge to
particularly agile characters without Martial Arts. (This does _not_ add
to Martial Dodge)
Superfluous Anecdote;
My personally favorite use of Acrobatics, though, WAS actually
completely for show. My character was designed specifically to be
obscenely Dextrous and agile, and had just joined a team with another
DEX-machine who was also very showy and brash. On my first adventure
with them, we were disembarking from a plane, and the 'other guy' made a
fancy, grandiose acrobatic flip down the stair-ramp from the plane. So
to be even more egotistical, I decided to do backwards handflips down
the stairs. There was an obscene penalty for the maneuver, but I made
it easily. Apparently that was the only time the 'other guy' was ever
left at a loss for words...
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 06:08:51 -0600
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Acrobatics
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
> As to your points of the question, another situation that would give at
> least Familiarity with Breakfall would be klutziness. Someone who trips
> over things and falls down a lot soon learns how to do it without getting
> hurt. (I'm speaking from personal experience here.)
I am reminded of a fairly famous film clip of President Ford falling out
of Air Force One, down the stairway, and coming up on his feet, with his
hand out to shake the hand of whomever it was he was visiting.
That's a breakfall.
--
Not only does the English Language borrow words from other languages,
it sometimes chases them down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and
goes through their pockets. -- Eddy Peters
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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 08:13:51 -0400
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: dive for cover question
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At 09:50 PM 6/2/98 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>At 09:06 PM 6/2/98 -0400, Mike Christodoulou wrote:
>>1. [Dive for Cover] enables the character to get out of the way of
>> explosions and area effect attacks.
>>2. A character can abort his next action to perform a defensive
>> Combat Maneuver or some other defensive action .... A character
>> can't normally abort to a movement action.
>
>So, you are saying that Spider Man cannot see Hobgoblin's Pumpkin bomb
>being thrown and react by twip-ing out a swing line and swinging away just
>before the bomb goes off unless he has a held action?
Yes. Spider Man survives because of his high SPD, which allows him that
held action. Notice that he usually hasn't taken an action just before
Hobgoblin strikes. Note also that every now and then, Hobgoblin catches
him without a held action and he takes some of the bomb blast.
====================== =================================================
Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
====================== =================================================
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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 07:38:26 -0500
To: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
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At 01:01 AM 6/3/98 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>I disagree with the need for 'obscene STR minima', as I feel it is very
>unrealistic and silly. As Len pointed out in an earlier post, 18 STR for
>a halberd is way to high.
For one or two handed use? The point was that 'obscene minima' would be for
one-handed use; is a 13 STR minima for two-handed (i.e. "normal") use too
high? Or an 8? (I.e. if 2-handed use altered effective STR by 5 or 10 points).
--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 07:38:28 -0500
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net&>
Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
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At 06:00 PM 6/3/98 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Tim R Gilberg writes:
>
>> How, in any way shape or form, does giving a power added ability
>> (that to be used two handed) constitute a disadvantage?
>
>By removing one's ability to use a shield or do things with one's other
>hand, Tim. it does not add to it, it takes away from it.
#insert mad_scream
Rat, it *doesn't* take away anything!
A 2-h weapon, which FORCES you to use both hands, removes something. A 1.5h
weapon gives you the OPTION of two-handed use, and you DO get something back
(-2 STR Min) when you choose to forego having a free hand. This is obviously
a /benefit/ compared to 1-handed use.
Compare to these three separate constructions:
#1: 2d6 HKA, 1-handed (+0)
Cost: 30 points.
#2: 2d6 HKA, 2-handed (-x)
Cost: 30/(x+1) points
#3: 30 pt. Multipower
u) 2d6 HKA, 1-handed (+0)
u) 2d6 HKA, 2-handed (-x)
Cost: 15 + 3 + 3/(x+1)
Note that #3, which emulates a "1.5 handed weapon", costs MORE than #1 or #2
(though costs less than #1 + #2).
In HERO, you often pay for flexibility as well as for raw power. Why is this
case different?
--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 06:32:42 -0700
To: Champs List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Heroes Lethality
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At 11:31 PM 6/2/1998 -0700, Robert A. West wrote:
>Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>> I don't know who this Bob Greenwood person is, but everything I can
>
>Careless error: my apologies. I hope that no offense was taken.
A miniscule amount. After nearly four decades of Greenway, Greenwood,
Greenwit, Greenwait, Gruenwold (which happens to be the original Welsh form
of the name), Green Wade (first name Green, last name Wade), and even (hold
on to your chairs for this one) Sreenwale, I get a bit used to it. I just
chose to make fun of it because I've pretty clearly been Bob Greenwade on
this list for about 3-4 years now. :-]
> find
>> that directly quotes your work has your full name on it....
>
>There have been a couple of posts that have responded to my rejoinder to
>a comment about something I said, and which refer to the original
>material as "someone said," and I felt like poking fun.
I've been noticing some of those as well. Were all of them your own
posts? (It could indicate a serious, if hardly major, glitch in someone's
system.)
>Obviously, I failed both my spelling and my humor skill rolls this time.
Nah, t'was me who failed the Humor Skill Roll (and me with such a high
Roll too!)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 09:32:46 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by Michael Surbrook
>Hero System's new character sheet design is supposed to get rid of this
problem.<
What do you mean, their new design? Do you mean that they are noting
powers differently in supplements these days? Or is there some new
character sheet design which strongly encourages players to name each
power?
As for sticking a name next to each power, I've followed that practice for
years, and I've even gone as far as requiring it of my players--sometimes
they get too wrapped up in the numbers, and it's good to give the numbers a
name 'cause it adds flavor.
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Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 09:33:02 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Sign off..
Cc: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by "WG Rowland"
>Hate to do this, but I'm on too many lists.. My server's yelling at me for
having too many messages... I need to sign off, and, of course, I've lost
the list serv address.. Could someone help me out with it..?<
Wow, a lot of people have been jumping ship lately. It'd probably help (at
least in this case) if a digest version of the list was available. I'm
always surprised at how few lists offer a digest version....
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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 06:40:08 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll: Line of Sight
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At 10:21 PM 6/2/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote:
>> >The crosshairs are not clairavoyence they are skill levels. That's what a
>> HUD
>> >does, it gives you a better chance to hit by giving you better information
>> about
>> >the target you are shooting at. The base system (ie no additional skill
>> levels)
>> >is just a linve video feed to the eyepiece. The computer then adds
>> details and
>> >information to increase the gunners chance to hit, ie add skill levels.
The
>> >weapon can be targeted and fired without the use of this equipment, its
just
>> >that the possibility of successfully hitting the target is greatly
reduced.
>>
>> No, the crosshairs are not Clairvoyance.
>
>I never said it was.
In fact, you stated that it was not; this statement of mine is an
agreement to yours.
>> The TV system itself (actually
>> the camera) is Clairvoyance.
>
>I spent a lot of time tinking about this on airplanes and a hotel room. I
think
>it is the system both the monitor and camera that make up the Clairvoyance
power.
>The problem I keep running into is that radar and sonar guided weapons
work on the
>same principle. So why is sight treated differently?
>
>> The crosshairs are the system which turns the
>> Clairvoyance into a Targeting Sense. Otherwise the gunner is just
>> extrapolating information into educated guesswork.
>
>A reasonable explanation that I would accept if it were not for the
problem with
>Radar and Sonar.
Not a problem. As I stated elsewhere, Radar and Sonar are bought as
senses for the base or vehicle on which it is located. They can be used as
very effective Targeting Senses for gunners on the base or vehicle, with no
need for Clairvoyance (and the problems that go along with it). If a third
party were to come along and tap into the system and see what the
base/vehicle radar/sonar operator sees, it's unlikely that said third party
would be able to use the information for direct targeting -- extrapolation
would be needed, either by hand or computer.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 10:09:08 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Acrobatics
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by cptspith@teleport.com
> When I play a character with Acrobatics (which is often), I am very
aware of using his/her skilled agility for combat bonuses such as
unexpected or surprise maneuvers. I don't as often see that from
players in games I run.<
What sorts of unexpected or surprise maneuvers does your character do to
get these bonuses? I'd love to get a big list of examples from someone (or
several someones), since I'm not acrobatically inclined and thus don't
think in those terms.
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Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 10:24:09 EDT
To: DBStallard@compuserve.com
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Sign off..
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In a message dated 98-06-03 09:36:56 EDT, DBStallard@compuserve.com writes:
<< Wow, a lot of people have been jumping ship lately. It'd probably help (at
least in this case) if a digest version of the list was available. I'm
always surprised at how few lists offer a digest version.... >>
Well, I know I've been thinking about signing off as well, but a digest
version would probably change my mind.
Jason
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Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 11:22:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
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On Wed, 3 Jun 1998, David Stallard wrote:
> Message text written by Michael Surbrook
> >Hero System's new character sheet design is supposed to get rid of this
> problem.<
>
> What do you mean, their new design? Do you mean that they are noting
> powers differently in supplements these days? Or is there some new
> character sheet design which strongly encourages players to name each
> power?
In recent Hero publications (starting about with uhm... one of the last
Enemies books or Atlantis) Hero was been using a new character sheet
format. When I was sent the writing rules for Hero, they discussed the
whole character sheet format at length. I rather like it.
If writing up one of these character sheets for Hero, you are *required*
to name each power.
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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 12:44:09 -0400
From: boaters <boaters@mindspring.com>
To: champs mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
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Okay, so I decided to see what a good area knowledge could do with someone
who is blind, and has no range mods.
1. If I am shooting at something inanimate, or at least not moving, in my
own home blindfolded, I was able to do it. (by pointing at it with my hand)
Out of ten attempts I would have hit what I was aiming for 9 times. (Damn
that toaster!)
2. If trying to hit a moving target unless they made a fairly good amount of
noise there was no way and only luck could have factored in to hitting them.
3. I have yet to try hitting something in my neighborhood and I probably
won't try, but again, if it is inanimate I figure that I have a good chance
of hitting it.
My suggestion is this. Choose a skill or an int roll (with whatever
penalties you want to give him) and if he/she makes it then give them only
the penalties of the blindfold against inamimate objects. Against animated
ones and they do not have incredible targetting hearing, then I would give
them much more of a penalty. Furthermore, hitting things down the road ten
miles away is so dangerous (major chance of hitting something that has moved
in the way) that even though I would rule that it is possible, I would also
rule that unless they have major luck or they are in some area which has 100s
of miles of farmland that they could indeed hit someone or something that
they can currently not see. This should stop most heroes, but if it doesn't
let them hit an innocent and then see how they feel about shooting blind.
Hope this has helped some.
Darin
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Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 12:49:38 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by Michael Surbrook
>In recent Hero publications (starting about with uhm... one of the last
Enemies books or Atlantis) Hero was been using a new character sheet
format. When I was sent the writing rules for Hero, they discussed the
whole character sheet format at length. I rather like it.
If writing up one of these character sheets for Hero, you are *required*
to name each power. <
I don't own many of the "gray series" books (after Hero and ICE parted
ways--I include the Gold Rush and Atlas books in this "gray series" even
though they're not gray), so I don't think I've noticed. I did buy
Atlantis and Pyramid in the Sky recently, but haven't had a chance to look
closely at them. Anyway, this is a GREAT decision on Hero's part. There
have been a few characters where I can see the power in terms of numbers,
but I have no idea what special effect it is supposed to
represent...sometimes this is handled in the "Powers/Tactics" text, and
sometimes you are left to guess.
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Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 13:29:08 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Does Champions simulate comics?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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I've recently gotten back into comic collecting, and I've been finding lots
of neat things that happen in comic book combat that just never happen in
Champions combat. To give one example, in the latest issue of Avengers (I
think it is #6 but I could be wrong), Iron Man is flying and is chasing a
running speedster through this building. The speedster then turns real
sharp and Iron Man slams into the wall since he's going too fast.
Now, it seems like Champions handles this simple situation because Flight
has a turn radius and running doesn't. However, I don't think you would
ever get this setup in a Champions combat--you don't ever have a situation
where a speedster is running away from a flier for a few phases so that you
can set this up. Iron Man didn't see the wall coming because he was too
busy trying to target the speedster (had to get his targeting systems to
compensate or something along those lines).
Another example is in Marvel Team-Up #11.... Wrecker throws his crowbar,
bounces it at least three times, and then it smashes the faceplate that
Namor is wearing since he can't breathe underwater anymore. There's a
"Bounce" rule in Champions...I've never used it, but we had a Capt. America
type character who used it a lot, and my observation is that it is very
difficult to pull this off (at least if you have more than one bounce).
Besides the fact that the rule mechanic might be difficult, I just don't
find in my Champions game that there is any reason why you would want to do
multiple Bounces, when all you need is a straight Called Shot.
What does everyone think? First of all, I guess I should ask if you ever
have situations like that in your game...I've never seen anything like
that, but maybe that's just the way I run and my GMs run (maybe the GMs
and/or players are not being imaginative enough). Champions simulates
standard hand-to-hand and ranged fighting just fine, but comics have a lot
of "neat things" like the examples above which, in my experience, can't
easily be simulated in the game. I think Fuzion's "Use Power" is a step in
the right direction, but it seems like there's still a big gap between
comic and game. It's probably impossible to get an exact simulation, but
does anyone have ideas on getting closer to that goal?
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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 10:46:32 -0700
To: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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At 01:29 PM 6/3/98 -0400, David Stallard wrote:
>Another example is in Marvel Team-Up #11.... Wrecker throws his crowbar,
>bounces it at least three times, and then it smashes the faceplate that
>Namor is wearing since he can't breathe underwater anymore. There's a
>"Bounce" rule in Champions...I've never used it, but we had a Capt. America
>type character who used it a lot, and my observation is that it is very
>difficult to pull this off (at least if you have more than one bounce).
>Besides the fact that the rule mechanic might be difficult, I just don't
>find in my Champions game that there is any reason why you would want to do
>multiple Bounces, when all you need is a straight Called Shot.
>
Special effect. Make your called shot to hit, and describe it as "I toss
the crowbar so it bounces three times and smashes Sub-Mariner in the face."
Combat in Champions is as dramatic as you make it.
For example:
"Captain Evil fires an energy bolt at you. He misses. You fire at him. You
hit. Roll for knockback. Two inches. He's stunned."
Versus:
"Captain Evil fires an energy bolt at you, but you leap up at the last
minute so the bolt seers the floor. While you're in midair, bolts of fire
blast from your hands, catching him square in the chest. He flies back into
the wall, making a Captain Evil shaped impression. He staggers forward,
dazed, but still standing."
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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 11:08:43 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Character Formats (was How Complicated Is Champions?)
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At 04:58 PM 6/3/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
>Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
>
>Message text written by Michael Surbrook
>>In recent Hero publications (starting about with uhm... one of the last
>Enemies books or Atlantis) Hero was been using a new character sheet
>format. When I was sent the writing rules for Hero, they discussed the
>whole character sheet format at length. I rather like it.
>If writing up one of these character sheets for Hero, you are *required*
>to name each power. <
>
>I don't own many of the "gray series" books (after Hero and ICE parted
>ways--I include the Gold Rush and Atlas books in this "gray series" even
>though they're not gray), so I don't think I've noticed. I did buy
>Atlantis and Pyramid in the Sky recently, but haven't had a chance to look
>closely at them. Anyway, this is a GREAT decision on Hero's part. There
>have been a few characters where I can see the power in terms of numbers,
>but I have no idea what special effect it is supposed to
>represent...sometimes this is handled in the "Powers/Tactics" text, and
>sometimes you are left to guess.
Actually, the new format started with TUMA (#510), though because there
were no characters in that book we didn't see the new format for them until
the next release, which (IIRC) was Pyramid In The Sky (#437). Since then
only Enemies For Hire (#437) has used the old format, and this was
apparently a decision based on that book's overall format.
The last book with ICE was Watchers of the Dragon (#422); the only new
books published since the split with ICE have been either through Hero
Plus, or as part of the C:TNM series.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 14:17:42 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by Lizard
>Special effect. Make your called shot to hit, and describe it as "I toss
the crowbar so it bounces three times and smashes Sub-Mariner in the
face."<
Then what's the point of the "Bounce" rule in the BBB? That sounds like
one heckuva special effect to me, but I guess it all comes down to how
liberal the GM is with special effect interpretations.
>Combat in Champions is as dramatic as you make it.<
I'm not talking about dramatics...I understand your example about having
lots of narrative description vs just the rules talk (I'll confess that my
games tend more toward "just the rules talk", something I'm not proud of),
but what I'm saying is that many situations (such as Iron Man giving chase
to a speedster, being distracted by trying to tweak his targeting systems,
and slamming into a wall) just don't happen. You can attach a rule to the
chase (movement vs movement), and you can attach a rule to the
wall-slamming (to fast to make the turn radius), but my point is that the
overall situation isn't something that comes up because of the nature of
the game, with the player at somewhat of an omniscient view of the
battlefield.
Incidentally, I'm not sure that you could attach a rule to Iron Man being
distracted by his targeting system tweaking. Concentration won't work,
because a player wouldn't let his character fly in a straight line for
several phases while he Concentrates on something else...some GMs might
even say that you can't be chasing somebody and Concentrating on another
task at the same time (I'd have to review the Concentration limitation
before giving an opinion here, but I probably wouldn't allow it).
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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 18:39:42 +0000
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics?
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David Stallard wrote:
>
> Message text written by Lizard
> >Special effect. Make your called shot to hit, and describe it as "I toss
> the crowbar so it bounces three times and smashes Sub-Mariner in the
> face."<
>
> Then what's the point of the "Bounce" rule in the BBB? That sounds like
> one heckuva special effect to me, but I guess it all comes down to how
> liberal the GM is with special effect interpretations.
It's a way to do indirect without having the advantage. I forget the issue,
but
Daredevil throws his baton past a villain who gloats about it missing. It
bounces
off something and hits the villain in the back of the head.
DD spent a level to bounce it, but got an OCV bonus for a suprise maneuver.
> Incidentally, I'm not sure that you could attach a rule to Iron Man being
> distracted by his targeting system tweaking. Concentration won't work,
> because a player wouldn't let his character fly in a straight line for
> several phases while he Concentrates on something else...some GMs might
> even say that you can't be chasing somebody and Concentrating on another
> task at the same time (I'd have to review the Concentration limitation
> before giving an opinion here, but I probably wouldn't allow it).
Iron man failed his Per roll and the GM screwed him for it.
-Mark Lemming
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing
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Joe Mucchiello writes:
> Entirely different, with clinging you can stop in mid air.
Oh. Well. That is "Flight".
> If you get grabbed and thrown there will be collateral damage on the wall
> you were clinging to.
Only if you are thrown into said wall.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing
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Chad Riley writes:
> Yeah but I managed to ignore it until now.
> BTW would the limited flight require a "Climing" Skill.
No. It is a "superskill". Just as normal skills do not require rolls for
normal, day-to-day use, a "superkill" does not (or at least should not)
require any kind of roll for what is considered "normal" for it.
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Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 11:54:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics?
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
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---David Stallard wrote:
>
> I'm not talking about dramatics...I understand your example about
having
> lots of narrative description vs just the rules talk (I'll confess
that my
> games tend more toward "just the rules talk", something I'm not
proud of),
> but what I'm saying is that many situations (such as Iron Man giving
chase
> to a speedster, being distracted by trying to tweak his targeting
systems,
> and slamming into a wall) just don't happen. You can attach a rule
to the
> chase (movement vs movement), and you can attach a rule to the
> wall-slamming (to fast to make the turn radius), but my point is
that the
> overall situation isn't something that comes up because of the
nature of
> the game, with the player at somewhat of an omniscient view of the
> battlefield.
This won't work if you use traditional map and figures for combat, but
if you rely enitrely on scene description or dynamic mapping (no
pre-drawn maps, you draw the map as things come intop the PC's field
of view) to describe combat, just don't tell the Iron Man players that
the wall is there until after you have him make a perception roll
(modified as appropriate for as distracted as you think he is).
> Incidentally, I'm not sure that you could attach a rule to Iron Man
being
> distracted by his targeting system tweaking. Concentration won't
work,
> because a player wouldn't let his character fly in a straight line for
> several phases while he Concentrates on something else...some GMs
might
> even say that you can't be chasing somebody and Concentrating on
another
> task at the same time (I'd have to review the Concentration limitation
> before giving an opinion here, but I probably wouldn't allow it).
The major effect of Concentration is to reduce your DCV (0 or 1/2). I
don't believe that in and of itself it precludes you from doing other
things (the power that has this limitation may though).
==
===========================================================
John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org>
===========================================================
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
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Filksinger writes:
> So, you are saying that a NRM attack fired by a blind man from 3,000
> miles should have the same chance to hit as a NRM fired by a blind man
> only 10 feet away, even though he has no way of sensing the target?
If the same power with the same target and the same range, yes. The
*POWER* has No Range Modifier, not the person using it.
> Does he at least have to determine the location of the target's hex in
> relation to him first?
This has no bearing on NRM.
> If so, how much harder is it to determine the relationship of that hex to
> the power-user when the hex is farther away?
Again, this has nothing to do with NRM. Ditto for the rest of your
"points"; they are all issues of detecting the target, not using the
power.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
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Filksinger writes:
> That's a disadvantage of using it two-handed, but how is it a
> disadvantage of having the _option_ to use it two-handed?
The disadvantage is not the option of using it one handed. A 1.5-hand
weapon is a one-handed weapon that can be used with two hands (one-handed
weapons cannot be wielded with two hands). With two hands it is a more
effective weapon, but you cannot use a shield (your DCV suffers). Thus the
limitation.
How many times do I have say the same thing before you stop asking
unrelated questions?
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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 12:14:52 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics?
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At 06:24 PM 6/3/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics?
>Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
>
>Message text written by Lizard
>>Special effect. Make your called shot to hit, and describe it as "I toss
>the crowbar so it bounces three times and smashes Sub-Mariner in the
>face."<
>
>Then what's the point of the "Bounce" rule in the BBB? That sounds like
>one heckuva special effect to me, but I guess it all comes down to how
>liberal the GM is with special effect interpretations.
Lizard is looking at this a bit wrongly. The bouncing was used to get a
bonus for an unexpected attack; he was looking for it to be coming from one
direction and it came from another. The villain (I forget who you said it
was) used those three levels to Bounce, but may have gotten more than +3
for surprise to make up for it (possibly his Hit Location modifier was
halved).
>>Combat in Champions is as dramatic as you make it.<
>
>I'm not talking about dramatics...I understand your example about having
>lots of narrative description vs just the rules talk (I'll confess that my
>games tend more toward "just the rules talk", something I'm not proud of),
>but what I'm saying is that many situations (such as Iron Man giving chase
>to a speedster, being distracted by trying to tweak his targeting systems,
>and slamming into a wall) just don't happen. You can attach a rule to the
>chase (movement vs movement), and you can attach a rule to the
>wall-slamming (to fast to make the turn radius), but my point is that the
>overall situation isn't something that comes up because of the nature of
>the game, with the player at somewhat of an omniscient view of the
>battlefield.
>
>Incidentally, I'm not sure that you could attach a rule to Iron Man being
>distracted by his targeting system tweaking. Concentration won't work,
>because a player wouldn't let his character fly in a straight line for
>several phases while he Concentrates on something else...some GMs might
>even say that you can't be chasing somebody and Concentrating on another
>task at the same time (I'd have to review the Concentration limitation
>before giving an opinion here, but I probably wouldn't allow it).
This is the kind of think I'd say happens when Iron Man shifts all of
his Combat Levels from Flight to OCV. Granted that the specifics of the
situation might not happen exactly has it happened to Tony Stark -- at
least, not without a little twiddling on the GM's part -- but this does
look to me like the basic situation in this case.
---
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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 12:23:32 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
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At 02:54 PM 6/3/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>Filksinger writes:
>
>> So, you are saying that a NRM attack fired by a blind man from 3,000
>> miles should have the same chance to hit as a NRM fired by a blind man
>> only 10 feet away, even though he has no way of sensing the target?
>
>If the same power with the same target and the same range, yes. The
>*POWER* has No Range Modifier, not the person using it.
I agree fully here.
>> Does he at least have to determine the location of the target's hex in
>> relation to him first?
>
>This has no bearing on NRM.
Hence my suggested rule for using Range Mods for drawing a bead on a
target that can't be sensed with a Targeting Sense. This would have the
mathematical effect of doubling Range Modifiers for an unmodified Power, or
adding Range Modifierss to one with No Range Modifier.
>> If so, how much harder is it to determine the relationship of that hex to
>> the power-user when the hex is farther away?
>
>Again, this has nothing to do with NRM. Ditto for the rest of your
>"points"; they are all issues of detecting the target, not using the
>power.
Here, again, I agree fully. Any penalties imposed should be involved in
drawing a bead on the target, not on actually firing the weapon. The
special Range Mods I'm suggesting (and mind you, I'm only *suggesting* it
until it becomes clear that nobody's going to shoot it down, as it were)
are defined as difficulty in perceiving the target and aiming the weapon,
not in making the weapon hit the target once it's properly aimed.
---
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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 12:25:26 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
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At 02:58 PM 6/3/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Filksinger writes:
>
>> That's a disadvantage of using it two-handed, but how is it a
>> disadvantage of having the _option_ to use it two-handed?
>
>The disadvantage is not the option of using it one handed. A 1.5-hand
>weapon is a one-handed weapon that can be used with two hands (one-handed
>weapons cannot be wielded with two hands). With two hands it is a more
>effective weapon, but you cannot use a shield (your DCV suffers). Thus the
>limitation.
>
>How many times do I have say the same thing before you stop asking
>unrelated questions?
Maybe it would help if someone were to spell out the characteristics of
a one-handed weapon, a hand-and-a-half weapon, and a two-handed weapon,
comparing them to show why the Limitations are what they are.
I admit that I'm a little fuzzy on the matter myself.
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Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 16:04:01 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Character Formats (was How Complicated Is Champions?)
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade
> Actually, the new format started with TUMA (#510), though because there
were no characters in that book we didn't see the new format for them until
the next release, which (IIRC) was Pyramid In The Sky (#437). Since then
only Enemies For Hire (#437) has used the old format, and this was
apparently a decision based on that book's overall format.
The last book with ICE was Watchers of the Dragon (#422); the only new
books published since the split with ICE have been either through Hero
Plus, or as part of the C:TNM series.<
Oh...I don't usually pay much attention to the publisher logos or anything,
so I guess I just assumed that the books changed from the "blue series" to
the "gray series" when ICE dropped out of the picture. I thought all the
gray books were post-ICE, but it sounds like all of them are ICE. Why the
change in format then? Someone just felt like updating the look?
I also noticed from your message that that numbering scheme does not seem
to reflect the order of publication (that is, newer books do not
necessarily have higher numbers)...dare I ask why? I always assumed this
was the case, since I don't pay attention to copyright dates either....
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Grant Enfield <genfield@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Combat Time (was Players who dont pay attention)
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Robert A. West wrote:
>BTW, I don't tell the players what roll they need. They make a skill
>roll and tell me how much they succeeded by. "I made my DEX roll by 3,"
>to which I might respond, "The rope is very slippery, you just manage to
>hold on." That would indicate a -3 modifier.
>
>Attack rolls are similar. The players roll and add obvious modifiers,
>such as range, and announce, "I hit DCV 7!" I then inform them of
>whether that hit or not. Since I use a lot of agents with skill levels,
>this can vary from phase to phase.
Our play group does this the same way: "backward" to how the rules book
explains things.
>There are faster ways to do this. One is to use tally notation, counting
>END, STUN and BODY used, not remaining. Another is to print off a series
>of charts similar to those used for Star Fleet Battles, with blocks to
>represent END, STUN and BODY. At the beginning of play, one marks off
>with a pen or magic marker the blocks that are not needed: if one has 56
>STUN, then one crosses off four of the sixth block of ten, and all the
>blocks thereafter. One then ticks off blocks in pencil as STUN is used,
>and erases as STUN is recovered.
This is a great idea, one I'll certainly try to use.
I struggle with keeping track of multiple opponents (especially agents with
different euipment): what they have, what they can do, and what strategy
they're using. Anything that makes this simpler to keep track of helps me.
Thanks.
grant
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Grant Enfield <genfield@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
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David Stallard wrote:
>Oh yeah, I agree totally. But I think H4 could really benefit from having
>a huge list of SFX-based powers inserted in front of the power creation
>rules, so that players only have to delve into that complexity every now
>and then...most of what they want will already be defined for them, so they
>just transcribe it to their character sheet and move on. It seems like
>either Marvel Super Heroes or DC Heroes was like this, but I haven't opened
>my (1st edition) boxes of either game for many years. Maybe the "Superhero
>Campaign Book" that is scheduled for release in the distant future could
>define a bunch of archetypes....ice powers, illusionist powers, stuff like
>that. I don't see this happening (it's somewhat against the HSR mindset),
>but it could help newbies especially.
While a list of many example powers may be useful as well as some defined
archetypes, I would prefer to see these archetypes not based on special effects.
I would rather see either combat archetypes such as martial artist (which we
already have), brick, energy projector, gadgeteer/armored hero. I might
also like to see character archetypes such as boy scout, grizzled veteran,
detective, etc. Those would give me more ideas for building characters than
"ice powers," "microwave powers," "darkness powers," etc. Look at the
Ultimate Mentalist for an example of how broad simply "mental powers" can be.
grant
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Grant Enfield <genfield@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
> Do you have the first edition Bestiary? Susko had a pretty cool trick
>in that one that should have been kept for the second edition. Each
>creature was given one full sheet for an average example, and then another
>table was given detailing the changes for other types. For "Camel-Like
>Animals," to given a randomly chosen example, the full sheet was given for
>a dromedary, and a table complared a bactrian camel, the dromedary, a
>llama, a guanaco, a vicuna, and an alpaca.
I've never seen the earlier Bestiary. While I think the current one is only
moderately useful, something like what Bob describes above would seem to be
very useful. I think perhaps the Bestiary could be broken down (or
expanded) into things like real-world animals, horror monsters, fantasy
monsters (from several traditions), etc.
grant
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Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 16:14:54 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by john.desmarais@ibm.net
>This won't work if you use traditional map and figures for combat, but
if you rely enitrely on scene description or dynamic mapping (no
pre-drawn maps, you draw the map as things come intop the PC's field
of view) to describe combat, just don't tell the Iron Man players that
the wall is there until after you have him make a perception roll
(modified as appropriate for as distracted as you think he is).<
I've found that leaving out the map can be a good thing for games like
AD&D, but it doesn't really work for Champions...at least, my group hasn't
been able to make it work--too many questions arise about what is within
reach that can be thrown, how many phases will it take me to get to the
door, and so on. Anyway, after I sent that last message, I got the idea of
using a dynamic map where you draw things as they come into view. However,
this seems like it would be a nightmare for the GM, especially if he erases
stuff that goes out of view. Usually, the GM draws a fixed map and all
action takes place within that map...if somebody gets knocked off the map,
we just estimate how long it takes to get back on, and if someone
intentionally leaves the map (ie., leaves the entire roll-out map and is
walking on an "unhexed" part of the table), we say that they have left the
battlesite and are out for the rest of the combat. There are exceptions to
this last bit, though, such as when the PCs are chasing after villains who
are trying to flee the scene.
It seems that if you have a need for dynamic maps, then you probably aren't
using combat time. For instance, if the PCs are roaming through a big
warehouse and the villain pops up every now and then to do an attack, and
then disappears again. After he disappears, you don't want to use combat
time to figure out how the PCs wander around looking for him. When he pops
up, I guess you would start combat time, then stop when he disappears, then
start up again when he reappears. This could be a likely scenario with a
teleporting (or maybe tunneling) villain. Anyway, every time he pops up in
a different location, you'd have to draw a different sub-map of this big
warehouse (or whatever).
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Grant Enfield <genfield@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Acrobatics
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David Stallard wrote:
>I've been seeing some talk about Acrobatics in the "Dive for Cover" thread,
>which reminded me of some questions I have about its use.
>* If Acrobatics is commonly used in your campaign, what are some examples?
>Is it generally used so that they can get small bonuses in combat? What
>bonuses do you generally give for acrobatic maneuvers? One common maneuver
>I've seen is to flip over an opponent to get behind him, then attack from
>behind for a bonus. Another is to leapfrog a teammate to attack a
>villain...the villain didn't see you coming from behind the teammate, so
>you get a bonus. That's about all I can think of that I've seen...only had
>one player who was inventive with Acrobatics.
We tend not to give many combat bonuses for use of acrobatics or fast draw
or whatever. We probably should give more bonuses for surprise maneuvers,
but we typically insist that if want a regular combat bonus you should pay
for it. We see, therefore, many more 5-point combat skill levels that
require a skill roll such as acrobatics, fast draw, or sleight of hand.
grant
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Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 16:23:03 -0400 (EDT)
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Grant Enfield <genfield@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: dive for cover question
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Mike Christodoulou wrote:
>Dive For Cover is an aborting action.
>You cannot abort to a teleport.
While the BBB says " a character can't normally abort to a movement action"
(141), in the Dive for Cover section it does say "a character can abort his
next Phase in order to Dive for Cover" (155). Taking this with the fact
that the book allows a character to "abort his next action to perform a
defensive Combat Maneuver or some other defensive action like turning on a
Force Field" it seems reasonable to assume that a character may Dive for
Cover using a movement power.
grant
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 15:25:03 -0500 (CDT)
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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> From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
> ---David Stallard wrote:
> >
>> nature of
> > the game, with the player at somewhat of an omniscient view of the
> > battlefield.
>
> This won't work if you use traditional map and figures for combat, but
> if you rely enitrely on scene description or dynamic mapping (no
> pre-drawn maps, you draw the map as things come intop the PC's field
> of view) to describe combat, just don't tell the Iron Man players that
> the wall is there until after you have him make a perception roll
> (modified as appropriate for as distracted as you think he is).
>
Or if your players are good enough role-players not to use player knowledge
versus character knowledge. I had this problem with a speedster PC with
a no-range 'wake blast' that had to travel through the hex her target was
in. Realistically she should have made at least one low-speed pass through
the area to get an idea of the layout before making full speed attack runs.
Curt
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Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 16:27:01 -0400 (EDT)
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Grant Enfield <genfield@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
> This brings to mind a hole in the Hero rules. If there have ever been
>any rules for missing your intended target and hitting something else, I
>don't know where it is. It is pretty obvious that if Pulsar is standing in
>front of a wall and Quantum looses a blast at him and misses, she's going
>to hit the wall. But with all the various possibilities in play, it'd be
>nice to have something solid to work with (especially since this very event
>is the excuse for making "Does No BODY" a -0 Limitation for Energy Blast).
We use a 0 OCV attack for this sort of thing and only roll the dice if it
makes things interesting. The 0 OCV attack emphasizes the defenders ability
to get out of the way over the accuracy of the attack: characters don't
normally get hit by stray shots if they're aware of them, walls or telephone
poles are much less likely to move out of the way.
grant
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Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 16:29:38 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade
> Lizard is looking at this a bit wrongly. The bouncing was used to get
a
bonus for an unexpected attack; he was looking for it to be coming from one
direction and it came from another. The villain (I forget who you said it
was) used those three levels to Bounce, but may have gotten more than +3
for surprise to make up for it (possibly his Hit Location modifier was
halved).<
The way it happened was that Wrecker threw his crowbar at Iron Man and
missed. Iron Man said something like "Ha, you missed!", and Wrecker
replied with something like "Did I?". We then see the crowbar bounce three
times and smash Sub-Mariner's faceplate. So rather than looking for an
attack in one direction when it came from another, Sub-Mariner wasn't
expecting an attack at all...it looked like Wrecker was gunning for Iron
Man. Maybe some additional bonuses here? In addition to taking
Sub-Mariner by surprise, Wrecker might have caused Iron Man to abort to a
dodge or whatever....
>> This is the kind of think I'd say happens when Iron Man shifts all of
his Combat Levels from Flight to OCV. Granted that the specifics of the
situation might not happen exactly has it happened to Tony Stark -- at
least, not without a little twiddling on the GM's part -- but this does
look to me like the basic situation in this case.<<
How would switching levels cause him to lose track of his environment and
not see that he was coming up on a wall? Other than the dynamic mapping
that someone suggested (which might make sense in a chase situation, sorta
like navigating a maze at high speed), I don't see how to simulate this in
Champions. Perhaps the GM could call for a perception roll, and if it is
failed, he could draw another wall on the map which "was there all the time
but you didn't see it since you were so intent on following and blasting
the speedster". If the player had asked "does the hallway continue?" or
something like that in the phases just before this, then the GM could waive
the perception roll and say that the PC knows that a wall is coming up
fast. Still, this is just a variation on the dynamic mapping idea, and
players might rebel if you start changing the map on them, especially in a
largely tactical environment such as HSR combat.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
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Bob Greenwade writes:
> Here, again, I agree fully. Any penalties imposed should be involved
> in drawing a bead on the target, not on actually firing the weapon. The
> special Range Mods I'm suggesting (and mind you, I'm only *suggesting* it
> until it becomes clear that nobody's going to shoot it down, as it were)
> are defined as difficulty in perceiving the target and aiming the weapon,
> not in making the weapon hit the target once it's properly aimed.
Remember that rMods apply just as much to perception rolls as they do to
attack rolls.
At this point the GM needs to use a bit of common sense as appropriate for
the game he is running.
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Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 15:33:28 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
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> weapon is a one-handed weapon that can be used with two hands (one-handed
> weapons cannot be wielded with two hands). With two hands it is a more
> effective weapon, but you cannot use a shield (your DCV suffers). Thus the
> limitation.
>
> How many times do I have say the same thing before you stop asking
> unrelated questions?
And how many times do you have to look stupid before you realize a
point?
How, in any way shape or form, does giving a power added ability
(that to be used two handed) constitute a disadvantage?
And example: 2* END is, I think, a -1/2 limitation. Would you
allow someone to take a power as"Sometimes 2*END, at player's option" for
a -1/4 limitation?
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
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Bob Greenwade writes:
> Maybe it would help if someone were to spell out the characteristics
> of a one-handed weapon, a hand-and-a-half weapon, and a two-handed
> weapon, comparing them to show why the Limitations are what they are.
First, there is no such thing as a weapon that requires one and a half
hands. It might seem obvious, but I am just being sure :).
There are weapons that require one hand to wield effectively. These are
one-handed weapons. You can do whatever you want with your off hand (the
one that isn't used to hold the weapon). This is frequently used to hold a
shield, but can be used for a variety of suprise maneuvers or other tasks.
There are weapons that require two hands to wield effectively. These are
two-handed weapons. Since both hands are occupied with the weapon, you
have no free hands with which to do other things (like no throwing sand in
your opponent's face), thus a limitation.
There are weapons that require one hand to wield effectively but can be
used with two hands, becoming slightly more effective. When wielded with
two hands, like a "real" two-handed weapon, the off hand is not free, thus
a limitation. Since the off-hand can be made free, it is worth less of a
bonus than a two-handed weapon.
Or perhaps they can be called two-handed weapons that can be wielded less
effectively with one hand. Because the weapon is sometimes less than fully
effective it gets a limitation.
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Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 16:55:09 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Acrobatics
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by Grant Enfield
>We tend not to give many combat bonuses for use of acrobatics or fast draw
or whatever. We probably should give more bonuses for surprise maneuvers,
but we typically insist that if want a regular combat bonus you should pay
for it. We see, therefore, many more 5-point combat skill levels that
require a skill roll such as acrobatics, fast draw, or sleight of hand.<
"Requires a Skill Roll" is a Limitation that never gets used in my group,
but this certainly sounds like a valid use of it.
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From: aregalad@miami.edu
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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 17:06:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics?
To: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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> >> This is the kind of think I'd say happens when Iron Man shifts all of
> his Combat Levels from Flight to OCV. Granted that the specifics of the
> situation might not happen exactly has it happened to Tony Stark -- at
> least, not without a little twiddling on the GM's part -- but this does
> look to me like the basic situation in this case.<<
>
> How would switching levels cause him to lose track of his environment and
> not see that he was coming up on a wall? Other than the dynamic mapping
> that someone suggested (which might make sense in a chase situation, sorta
> like navigating a maze at high speed), I don't see how to simulate this in
> Champions. Perhaps the GM could call for a perception roll, and if it is
> failed, he could draw another wall on the map which "was there all the time
> but you didn't see it since you were so intent on following and blasting
> the speedster". If the player had asked "does the hallway continue?" or
> something like that in the phases just before this, then the GM could waive
> the perception roll and say that the PC knows that a wall is coming up
> fast. Still, this is just a variation on the dynamic mapping idea, and
> players might rebel if you start changing the map on them, especially in a
> largely tactical environment such as HSR combat.
It's interesting to hear people talking about these map problems. In our
campaigns, we only use the map about 10% of the time. Back in the early
80s we used the map ALL the time, but the group I've been gaming with for
the past 12 years or so doesn't like them, so we don't use them very
much. Sometimes I miss it, but I will say this - it makes it easier to do
some of the more dramatic and quirky maneuvers that occur in comicbooks
because you are not bound by the layout you draw on the map.
Some thoughts -
1 - I did not read the comicbook where that example took place, but is it
possible that the characters were moving at NCM speed? If so, the GM could
have required a DEX roll to move in such a tight environment. Maybe the
Speedster made it and Iron Man didn't? Heck, he could have required it
even if there were NOT moving at NCM if the space was tight enough.
2 - Has anybody seen the Masterbook or Torg card system? There are some
neat functions in there that supplement regular game play. There are rules
for allowing characters to perform "Trick" maneuvers on opponents, thus
tricking them into making stupid mistakes. There are other really neat
aspects of this system, and I have considered working it into my champions
games, but have not given it much thought.
See ya,
Dragonfly
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Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 17:24:27 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by aregalad@miami.edu
>1 - I did not read the comicbook where that example took place, but is it
possible that the characters were moving at NCM speed? If so, the GM could
have required a DEX roll to move in such a tight environment. Maybe the
Speedster made it and Iron Man didn't? Heck, he could have required it
even if there were NOT moving at NCM if the space was tight enough.<
The DEX roll isn't really necessary, since it can just be explained as the
Flight turn radius...Iron Man was just going too fast to turn in time or to
decelerate. The speedster was running (no turn radius), so he was never in
danger of hitting the wall by accident.
>2 - Has anybody seen the Masterbook or Torg card system? There are some
neat functions in there that supplement regular game play. There are rules
for allowing characters to perform "Trick" maneuvers on opponents, thus
tricking them into making stupid mistakes. There are other really neat
aspects of this system, and I have considered working it into my champions
games, but have not given it much thought.<
I thought the Torg card system was absolutely incredible for making each
combat unique and much more interesting than "I punch...I punch again...I
punch again". Those cards were the most innovative thing I've seen in
role-playing in quite a while (still are!), and I really wish that they
(not necessarily cards, but that concept--maybe special dice) had become
more of a standard instead of being a hidden treasure in a relatively
obscure RPG. I'd encourage anyone to pick up a used copy of the Torg box
(as far as I know, the game died a few years back so you'd probably have to
buy it used) just to get their hands on these cards...simply a brilliant
tool for encouraging player imagination. I think eventually you could ween
the group off the cards and still get all that variety of action. Okay,
now I need something to clean up this drool with....
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
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Tim R Gilberg writes:
> How, in any way shape or form, does giving a power added ability
> (that to be used two handed) constitute a disadvantage?
By removing one's ability to use a shield or do things with one's other
hand, Tim. it does not add to it, it takes away from it.
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From: aregalad@miami.edu
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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 18:00:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics?
To: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Howdy,
> >1 - I did not read the comicbook where that example took place, but is it
> possible that the characters were moving at NCM speed? If so, the GM could
> have required a DEX roll to move in such a tight environment. Maybe the
> Speedster made it and Iron Man didn't? Heck, he could have required it
> even if there were NOT moving at NCM if the space was tight enough.<
>
> The DEX roll isn't really necessary, since it can just be explained as the
> Flight turn radius...Iron Man was just going too fast to turn in time or to
> decelerate. The speedster was running (no turn radius), so he was never in
> danger of hitting the wall by accident.
Well there you go! I had not read the comicbook, so I didn't know, but
that works perfectly, it seems. Incidently, my players are a great bunch,
but in the heat of combat they get enough "brain farts" to make the
occassional BAD decision. These lead to MANY unique combat moments. The
trick for me as GM is to make up good enough excuses for these screw-ups
so they feel "in genre" and don't make the characters involved look too
stupid. No need to punish the character for the players actions. :]
(Unless the player is REALLY incompetent).
> I thought the Torg card system was absolutely incredible for making each
> combat unique and much more interesting than "I punch...I punch again...I
> punch again". Those cards were the most innovative thing I've seen in
> role-playing in quite a while (still are!), and I really wish that they
> (not necessarily cards, but that concept--maybe special dice) had become
> more of a standard instead of being a hidden treasure in a relatively
> obscure RPG. I'd encourage anyone to pick up a used copy of the Torg box
> (as far as I know, the game died a few years back so you'd probably have to
> buy it used) just to get their hands on these cards...simply a brilliant
> tool for encouraging player imagination. I think eventually you could ween
> the group off the cards and still get all that variety of action. Okay,
> now I need something to clean up this drool with....
Heh, I agree with you 100%. HAVE you ever experimented with using the
cards (or some variation) in HERO?
See ya,
Dragonfly
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From: SteveL1979@aol.com
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Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 18:19:32 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Character Formats (was How Complicated Is Champions?)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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In a message dated 98-06-03 16:18:48 EDT, DBStallard@compuserve.com writes:
<< Why the change in format then? Someone just felt like updating the look?
>>
I believe that Hero's intent in changing the look and organization of the
character sheet was (a) improve its usefulness (the new one includes info not
listed on the old one) and (b) to emphasize creativity and the nature of each
character by, for example, making sure that each power and ability that
deserves a unique name gets one, and putting the math at the end, rather than
in the first column. But you'd have to ask the PTB for a full rundown on the
situation
<< I also noticed from your message that that numbering scheme does not seem
to reflect the order of publication (that is, newer books do not necessarily
have higher numbers)...dare I ask why? I always assumed this was the case,
since I don't pay attention to copyright dates either.... >>
Newer books have higher numbers *within their product lines.* The Ultimate
books, being a different product line from straight Champions stuff, have a
different numbering sequence. Hence UMA is #510, and Ult. Mentalist #512 (TUM
came out after UMA), but WOTD is #422 even though it was released long after
UMA -- WOTD is a different line from UMA.
Steve Long
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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 15:57:31 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics?
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At 08:24 PM 6/3/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics?
>Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
>
>Message text written by john.desmarais@ibm.net
>>This won't work if you use traditional map and figures for combat, but
>if you rely enitrely on scene description or dynamic mapping (no
>pre-drawn maps, you draw the map as things come intop the PC's field
>of view) to describe combat, just don't tell the Iron Man players that
>the wall is there until after you have him make a perception roll
>(modified as appropriate for as distracted as you think he is).<
>
>I've found that leaving out the map can be a good thing for games like
>AD&D, but it doesn't really work for Champions...at least, my group hasn't
>been able to make it work--too many questions arise about what is within
>reach that can be thrown, how many phases will it take me to get to the
>door, and so on. Anyway, after I sent that last message, I got the idea of
>using a dynamic map where you draw things as they come into view. However,
>this seems like it would be a nightmare for the GM, especially if he erases
>stuff that goes out of view. Usually, the GM draws a fixed map and all
>action takes place within that map...if somebody gets knocked off the map,
>we just estimate how long it takes to get back on, and if someone
>intentionally leaves the map (ie., leaves the entire roll-out map and is
>walking on an "unhexed" part of the table), we say that they have left the
>battlesite and are out for the rest of the combat. There are exceptions to
>this last bit, though, such as when the PCs are chasing after villains who
>are trying to flee the scene.
I've always had a good deal of success with dynamic maps where the GM
starts with what's readily visible, and then draws in stuff as it comes
into view. The group I was with in Salem did this, but we never removed
stuff that went out of view; it was left as it was when we last saw it --
though that wouldn't mean that what was there actually would stay that way!
As for leaving the battle-map for whatever reason, we tended to let how
it was handled depend on the reason for leaving. Usually, it was a matter
of massive Knockback being done, but the character wasn't actually knocked
out, so we'd just remember how many inches off the map the character was
supposed to be, and then let that character resolve it on his next Phase.
Your situation of fleeing the scene was the second most common reason for
this, and on a couple of occasions the fight just "wandered" off the map
(one time it split in two, and the two parts wandered in opposite
directions!).
>It seems that if you have a need for dynamic maps, then you probably aren't
>using combat time. For instance, if the PCs are roaming through a big
>warehouse and the villain pops up every now and then to do an attack, and
>then disappears again. After he disappears, you don't want to use combat
>time to figure out how the PCs wander around looking for him. When he pops
>up, I guess you would start combat time, then stop when he disappears, then
>start up again when he reappears. This could be a likely scenario with a
>teleporting (or maybe tunneling) villain. Anyway, every time he pops up in
>a different location, you'd have to draw a different sub-map of this big
>warehouse (or whatever).
The most explicit use of a dynamic map in combat time that I ever saw
was when the PCs were raiding a Terror Inc. safe-house that we'd tracked
down. (I was the group leader in this campaign.) We surrounded the house,
so the GM just drew the exterior wall, including all external doors and
windows. Then, as we burst in (yes, we were sanctioned heroes and had a
legally-obtained no-knock warrant), the GM just drew in the rooms as we
entered them, the upper floor in red and the ground floor in blue. We
expected that combat to take a long time in mapping, but really the main
reason it took as long as it did was because there were 10 heroes and 8
villains (including a batch of mercenary villains).
---
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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 16:07:39 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics?
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At 08:39 PM 6/3/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics?
>Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
>
>Message text written by Bob Greenwade
>> Lizard is looking at this a bit wrongly. The bouncing was used to get a
>bonus for an unexpected attack; he was looking for it to be coming from one
>direction and it came from another. The villain (I forget who you said it
>was) used those three levels to Bounce, but may have gotten more than +3
>for surprise to make up for it (possibly his Hit Location modifier was
>halved).<
>
>The way it happened was that Wrecker threw his crowbar at Iron Man and
>missed. Iron Man said something like "Ha, you missed!", and Wrecker
>replied with something like "Did I?". We then see the crowbar bounce three
>times and smash Sub-Mariner's faceplate. So rather than looking for an
>attack in one direction when it came from another, Sub-Mariner wasn't
>expecting an attack at all...it looked like Wrecker was gunning for Iron
>Man. Maybe some additional bonuses here? In addition to taking
>Sub-Mariner by surprise, Wrecker might have caused Iron Man to abort to a
>dodge or whatever....
Definitely a surprise -- Sub-Mariner would get 1/2 DCV for being taken
by surprise, and would get no Skill Levels for DCV. If the situation was
"out of combat," then Hit Location modifiers would be halved as well. Even
so, I suspect that Sub-Mariner has a DCV (including Skill Levels) of more
than 6, making those 3 Bounces worth their investment even if Iron Man
didn't Abort to a Dodge.
>>> This is the kind of think I'd say happens when Iron Man shifts all of
>his Combat Levels from Flight to OCV. Granted that the specifics of the
>situation might not happen exactly has it happened to Tony Stark -- at
>least, not without a little twiddling on the GM's part -- but this does
>look to me like the basic situation in this case.<<
>
>How would switching levels cause him to lose track of his environment and
>not see that he was coming up on a wall? Other than the dynamic mapping
>that someone suggested (which might make sense in a chase situation, sorta
>like navigating a maze at high speed), I don't see how to simulate this in
>Champions. Perhaps the GM could call for a perception roll, and if it is
>failed, he could draw another wall on the map which "was there all the time
>but you didn't see it since you were so intent on following and blasting
>the speedster". If the player had asked "does the hallway continue?" or
>something like that in the phases just before this, then the GM could waive
>the perception roll and say that the PC knows that a wall is coming up
>fast. Still, this is just a variation on the dynamic mapping idea, and
>players might rebel if you start changing the map on them, especially in a
>largely tactical environment such as HSR combat.
Losing track of his environment is just SFX. What happened in game
terms (IMO) was that his levels were in OCV instead of Flight -- something
that can be done fairly typically when one is making Half Moves and then
trying to draw a bead on the target -- and so he couldn't adjust his Turn
Mode in the narrow hallway, and ended up going splat against the wall.
(I've actually had a PC of my own do that in a game, too!)
Another possibility for game mechanics on this is a system in his suit
that Requires a Skill Roll. It's entirely possible that he had his Levels
in that, which would have the same end effect.
---
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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 16:24:20 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Character Formats
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At 06:19 PM 6/3/1998 EDT, SteveL1979@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 98-06-03 16:18:48 EDT, DBStallard@compuserve.com writes:
>
><< Why the change in format then? Someone just felt like updating the look?
>>>
>
> I believe that Hero's intent in changing the look and organization of the
>character sheet was (a) improve its usefulness (the new one includes info not
>listed on the old one) and (b) to emphasize creativity and the nature of each
>character by, for example, making sure that each power and ability that
>deserves a unique name gets one, and putting the math at the end, rather than
>in the first column. But you'd have to ask the PTB for a full rundown on the
>situation
Both (a) and (b) succeeded. In particular, (a) worked in that
everything had at least a name that gave some sort of cue to the GM as to
what sort of description to give it. It could use a bit of tweaking; for
instance, Disadvantages should always have their frequency and intensity
listed unless taken at the minimum or maximum levels, or it can be
extrapolated from existing information (as is common with Berserk or
Reputation), there is a "standard" form of the Disadvantage, or some
similar situation exists.
Still, what's there is worlds better than what was being done before.
(And in case anyone's confused, PTB = Powers That Be, Steve's nickname
for those to whom I refer as the Hero Guys -- Mssrs. Harlick & Peterson,
with maybe a little MacDonald and Robinson thrown in for good measure.)
><< I also noticed from your message that that numbering scheme does not seem
> to reflect the order of publication (that is, newer books do not necessarily
>have higher numbers)...dare I ask why? I always assumed this was the case,
>since I don't pay attention to copyright dates either.... >>
>
> Newer books have higher numbers *within their product lines.* The Ultimate
>books, being a different product line from straight Champions stuff, have a
>different numbering sequence. Hence UMA is #510, and Ult. Mentalist #512
(TUM
>came out after UMA), but WOTD is #422 even though it was released long after
>UMA -- WOTD is a different line from UMA.
The two lines, as I understand it, were rules supplements such as genre
books, Ultimate books, Almanacs, and the like (500 series); and campaign
supplements for Champions (400 series). (Pre-4th Edition stuff was just
numbered sequentially from 1 through somewhere in the 40s or so.)
---
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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 16:29:01 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Combat Time (was Players who dont pay attention)
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At 04:04 PM 6/3/1998 -0400, Grant Enfield wrote:
>Robert A. West wrote:
>
>>BTW, I don't tell the players what roll they need. They make a skill
>>roll and tell me how much they succeeded by. "I made my DEX roll by 3,"
>>to which I might respond, "The rope is very slippery, you just manage to
>>hold on." That would indicate a -3 modifier.
>>
>>Attack rolls are similar. The players roll and add obvious modifiers,
>>such as range, and announce, "I hit DCV 7!" I then inform them of
>>whether that hit or not. Since I use a lot of agents with skill levels,
>>this can vary from phase to phase.
>
>Our play group does this the same way: "backward" to how the rules book
>explains things.
There are those that complain that it's "Not the Hero Way!," but really
anything that comes out mathematically the same is fine as long as it
works. The method Robert describes above is generally considered to be the
most effective way, since it conceals the opponents' DCVs from the players.
The formula would be:
DCV Hit = OCV + 3d6 - 11 (or less)
For those who like to consistently look for high rolls on the dice (the
Fuzion Way, as it were, though it predates Fuzion by a couple of years):
DCV Hit = OCV + 3d6 - 10 (or more)
---
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Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 16:30:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Stainless Steel Rat writes:
> > How, in any way shape or form, does giving a power added ability
> > (that to be used two handed) constitute a disadvantage?
>
> By removing one's ability to use a shield or do things with one's other
> hand, Tim. it does not add to it, it takes away from it.
The problem is, using the hand and a half limitation _as written_, the only
effect is that if you _choose_ to use it with 2 hands you get -3 STR min. In
other words, you can use it in one hand _just as well_ as you could before --
you just get a special bonus of being able to use it with two hands as well.
You can never use the weapon with two hands, and all that happens is that you
get some points -- STR min remains the same.
The limitation should be '+3 STR min to use 1 handed', not '-3 STR min to use 2
handed'.
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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 16:39:34 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
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At 04:13 PM 6/3/1998 -0400, Grant Enfield wrote:
>Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>> Do you have the first edition Bestiary? Susko had a pretty cool trick
>>in that one that should have been kept for the second edition. Each
>>creature was given one full sheet for an average example, and then another
>>table was given detailing the changes for other types. For "Camel-Like
>>Animals," to given a randomly chosen example, the full sheet was given for
>>a dromedary, and a table complared a bactrian camel, the dromedary, a
>>llama, a guanaco, a vicuna, and an alpaca.
>
>I've never seen the earlier Bestiary. While I think the current one is only
>moderately useful, something like what Bob describes above would seem to be
>very useful. I think perhaps the Bestiary could be broken down (or
>expanded) into things like real-world animals, horror monsters, fantasy
>monsters (from several traditions), etc.
Actually, both Bestiaries are divided up something like that. The
sections in the first were Real Animals, Prehistoric Animals, Mythical
Animals, and Movie Monsters (and yes, it included Hach-U-Rui); the second
started with Beasts of Myth & Fantasy and then went on to Prehistoric
Beasts, Animals, and Movie Monsters.
I suspect that your intent, though, is that the creatures should be
divvied up according to genre -- real-world stuff first, then monsters for
various types of horror stories, then traditional fantasy creatures from
around the world, perhaps a separate section on monsters from various
gaming traditions, maybe some creatures styled after science-fiction
traditions, dinosaurs, Japanese-style giant monsters, and whatever else
looks good.
If there's a Bestiary on the slate for 5th Edition, I hope it uses that
list of categories and the many-animals format used in the original
Bestiary. That would cram a whole lot of critters into a relatively small
space.
---
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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 16:41:01 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
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At 04:27 PM 6/3/1998 -0400, Grant Enfield wrote:
>Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>> This brings to mind a hole in the Hero rules. If there have ever been
>>any rules for missing your intended target and hitting something else, I
>>don't know where it is. It is pretty obvious that if Pulsar is standing in
>>front of a wall and Quantum looses a blast at him and misses, she's going
>>to hit the wall. But with all the various possibilities in play, it'd be
>>nice to have something solid to work with (especially since this very event
>>is the excuse for making "Does No BODY" a -0 Limitation for Energy Blast).
>
>We use a 0 OCV attack for this sort of thing and only roll the dice if it
>makes things interesting. The 0 OCV attack emphasizes the defenders ability
>to get out of the way over the accuracy of the attack: characters don't
>normally get hit by stray shots if they're aware of them, walls or telephone
>poles are much less likely to move out of the way.
I think this is the way to do it.
Now, hopefully, it'll get into the Hero5 rulebook.
---
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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 16:44:06 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
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At 04:42 PM 6/3/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>Bob Greenwade writes:
>
>> Maybe it would help if someone were to spell out the characteristics
>> of a one-handed weapon, a hand-and-a-half weapon, and a two-handed
>> weapon, comparing them to show why the Limitations are what they are.
>
>First, there is no such thing as a weapon that requires one and a half
>hands. It might seem obvious, but I am just being sure :).
It's good to be sure of even the apparently obvious.
"Hand-and-a-half" is, in the parlance I'm used to anyway, a shorthand
for a weapon that can be used with either one hand or two.
>There are weapons that require one hand to wield effectively. These are
>one-handed weapons. You can do whatever you want with your off hand (the
>one that isn't used to hold the weapon). This is frequently used to hold a
>shield, but can be used for a variety of suprise maneuvers or other tasks.
>
>There are weapons that require two hands to wield effectively. These are
>two-handed weapons. Since both hands are occupied with the weapon, you
>have no free hands with which to do other things (like no throwing sand in
>your opponent's face), thus a limitation.
>
>There are weapons that require one hand to wield effectively but can be
>used with two hands, becoming slightly more effective. When wielded with
>two hands, like a "real" two-handed weapon, the off hand is not free, thus
>a limitation. Since the off-hand can be made free, it is worth less of a
>bonus than a two-handed weapon.
>
>Or perhaps they can be called two-handed weapons that can be wielded less
>effectively with one hand. Because the weapon is sometimes less than fully
>effective it gets a limitation.
The real question, though, is: how is the hand-and-a-half weapon
Limited, as compared to the one-handed weapon?
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Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 20:17:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: David Majors <asmodeus@shell.ezy.net>
Reply-To: David Majors <asmodeus@shell.ezy.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
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> > By removing one's ability to use a shield or do things with one's other
> > hand, Tim. it does not add to it, it takes away from it.
The problem is that the STR min rule for hand and a half weapons is based
on one handed use and to pick up the extra 1/4 limitation you sacrifice
nothing.(Actually you gain something in some cases)
Okay, after all of this discussion, let's look at the math...
For fun lets take a 30 active point weapon(2d6 KA) and make all 3
versions... Strength minimum is based on 1/2 active points for the base of
every weapon.
Real cost for all of these weapons are based on Has STR Min (-1),
OAF (-1), Independent (-2), STR Min as calculated (0), Melee only weapon
(0) and either One handed (0), 1.5 Hands (-1/4), or 2 Hands (-1/2)
Used w/1 Hand Used w/2 Hands Real Cost
One handed 2d6 KA = STR Min 15 ------ 6
1.5 handed 2d6 KA = STR Min 15 STR Min 13 5.71
Two handed 2d6 KA = STR Min 20 STR Min 15 5.45
As per the BBB page 205. Keeping this in mind, buying a 1.5 handed weapon
does not adversely affect the builder of the weapon. They would get an
extra -1/4 limitation for no reason and would infact if they had 18
strength be able to wield the weapon in 2 hands and get an extra damage
class out of this weapon.
The fact is that this rule is broken... If the -2 strength were actually
+2 strength to use it in 1 hand versus using it in 2 hands for the base
STR min... That would help the situation and actually make the limitation
worth something.
When you get down to it, there isn't much in the way of point cost
reduction that even makes this worth all of the hooplah.(sp?) There is
less than a point difference between 1 hand and 2 handed in the scheme of
this example. It would require less disads or more active points before
this -1/4 even matters.
David Majors
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Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 20:19:52 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Character Formats
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In a message dated 98-06-03 20:00:40 EDT, bob.greenwade@klock.com writes:
<< > I believe that Hero's intent in changing the look and organization of
the
>character sheet was (a) improve its usefulness (the new one includes info
not
>listed on the old one) and (b) to emphasize creativity and the nature of
each
>character by, for example, making sure that each power and ability that
>deserves a unique name gets one, and putting the math at the end, rather
than
>in the first column. But you'd have to ask the PTB for a full rundown on
the
>situation
Both (a) and (b) succeeded. In particular, (a) worked in that
everything had at least a name that gave some sort of cue to the GM as to
what sort of description to give it. It could use a bit of tweaking; for
instance, Disadvantages should always have their frequency and intensity
listed unless taken at the minimum or maximum levels, or it can be
extrapolated from existing information (as is common with Berserk or
Reputation), there is a "standard" form of the Disadvantage, or some
similar situation exists. >>
I think that (b) definitely succeeded. I think (a) only partly succeeded; I
would prefer to see (1) a box around the sheet, like the old one, to give it a
little more definition for the eye (so to speak); (2) a column, probably on
the right-hand side, where the costs of things are listed; it's too hard to
find the cost of something as is; and (3) that Skills should always be listed
in strict alphabetical order, not broken up into different categories and
listed alphabetically in each category (makes you have to look in X places to
find out if the character has a certain Skill).
And I'd certainly agree that there ought to be a uniform way of writing all
Powers, Disads, etc.; however, that would require Hero to spend a LOT of time
preparing an elaborate Style Guide, and I'd just as soon see them produce more
products instead. :)
Steve Long
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To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Only For Those Who Understand Why Weapon Hands Rules are Broken
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 20:18:01 -0500
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Just time for one quick post--so got to make it count :-).
Don't let the title stop the other "hands" discussion--I find it very
amusing. But I thought I would start a new thread--since the original
reason I posted was to get a solution.
As my first post indicated, my inclination was to change 1.5 handed weapons
to use the listed STR min as the 2 handed requirement and charge +2 STR for
using the weapon 1 handed. That would handle it--or you could change to +3
STR like Michael and Len have suggested. Either way, the -!/4 limitation
would be EARNED.
However, this rather irritated me (all out of proportion, I admit), because
it requires the couple of characters using 1.5 handed weapons in my
campaign to either increase their STR or switch weapons--And our samurai
halfling running around with a child's version of a katana shouldn't be any
stronger than he already is.
The halfling (well, the player) and I talked it over and came up with a
solution. We took someone's suggestion (sorry, lost the message) that the
-1/4 limitation really belongs on the 1 handed weapons and came up with a
rational for it. Here goes:
The default for all weapons is that they can be used with 1.5 handed. With
2 hands, the weapons takes X less STR (x=2, if you stick to the standard
rules). The weapon gets NO limitation for this.
2 handed weapons get the -1/2 limit, just like they always have. Their
wielders still cannot use shields, and they also lose out on the possiblity
of saving X STR on the minimun when the sweat beads start appearing (END
runs low :-)
1 handed weapons get a -1/4 limit for losing the option to use the weapon
1.5 handed at -X STR. Many blades have a hilt too small to accommodate 2
hands. A lot of 1 handed swung weapons (smaller axes, maces, flails, etc.)
qualify for the 1 handed limit also. The reason is that they derive a
great deal of their power from the reach and leverage of the blow. As
anyone who has played tennis knows, the reach and STR of a 1 handed versus
a 2 handed grip is significant--especially for an object in about the 2 to
4 foot range. So anyone can grip a 1 handed axe two handed if they want
to, but they lose a damage class. That leaves clubs, some throwing
polearms, whips, and lances left of the original 1 handed weapons. Whips
and lances get the -1/4 limit because of the method of use. (Silly knight:
"If I sit sidesaddle, can I hold the lance 2 handed and charge?")
Arguably, more of the polearms could be 1.5 handed. But I'd rule that any
polearm short enough to throw is going to be too short to use 2 handed.
("Sure, you can hold that javelin 2 handed, but the point won't move more
than a foot from your head. If the villian breathes on you, you can get
the -2 STR minimum") Ditto for smaller clubs and weapons of opportunity.
That doesn't handle the issue of halflings, gnomes, and children getting to
use some 1 handed weapons 1.5 handed. But I figure that all cancels out in
the end, since they also lose a lot of the bigger weapons.
The big advantage of this scheme is that it leaves the relative mechanics
in place. Anyone satisfied with the current charts can keep them. Even
Michael and Len could use this with their changed STR minimums. The only
thing that changes is my big magical weapon construction chart. <Sigh> I
knew I should have used a spreadsheet.
Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 01:18:57 +0000
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
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David Majors wrote:
>
> > > By removing one's ability to use a shield or do things with one's other
> > > hand, Tim. it does not add to it, it takes away from it.
>
> The problem is that the STR min rule for hand and a half weapons is based
> on one handed use and to pick up the extra 1/4 limitation you sacrifice
> nothing.(Actually you gain something in some cases)
I've been reading this discusion for some reason and am astounded by how many
people keep yelling at Rat for his bit of logic. (I think someone other
than David was going postal over this, but David's post was the last in the
thread.)
I'm pretty indifferent to whether 1.5 is a disad or not. It entices you to
buy
a shield and then not use it, but in the games where it's in play you rarely
are paying points for your equipment.
To me, it's a hold over from an earlier edition that got tweaked in a later
edition. (Just a guess.) Personally, I'm chucking the weapon tables and
doing something different for when I do my next Fantasy Hero.
-Mark Lemming
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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 20:44:40 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
To: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
CC: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
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Jeff M. Reid wrote:
> > Personally, I find this an argument in favor of restricting the use
> > of NRM. A man-sized target at 10 miles? Sure -- the rules allow
> > it. But you'd better have a pretty damned good explanation of how
> > your character can pull something like that off.
>
> Hey, as far as I'm concerned, if the attacker can "see" (i.e. perceive with
> a targeting sense) a man-sized target at 10 miles (a big "if," considering
> that the Range mods for the PER Roll is in the neighborhood of -2000!)
Way off their. While perception minuses grow linearly, the range grows
geometrically. So the actual perception minus for 10 mile (roughly 16
kilometer or 8000 hexes) is only a -22 while fairly large and all but
prohibitive on 3D6 for anyone with out technological assistance or super powers
it is not even close to the -2000 you claim. If it was the New Jersey (or any
other capitol naval vessal for the matter) would never hit anything they shot
at.
> , and
> he happens to have an attack with both the No Range Modifiers advantage and
> enough Increased Maximum Range to reach it, I say more power to him!
>
> If he >can't< perceive the target, he has no chance of hitting it because
> he has no idea where to shoot.
>
> Jeff Reid
> Morfhis@compuserve.com
> http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm
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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 21:15:53 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll: Line of Sight
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
> At 10:21 PM 6/2/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote:
> <clip>
> Not a problem. As I stated elsewhere, Radar and Sonar are bought as
> senses for the base or vehicle on which it is located. They can be used as
> very effective Targeting Senses for gunners on the base or vehicle, with no
> need for Clairvoyance (and the problems that go along with it). If a third
> party were to come along and tap into the system and see what the
> base/vehicle radar/sonar operator sees, it's unlikely that said third party
> would be able to use the information for direct targeting -- extrapolation
> would be needed, either by hand or computer.
As I asked else where, how do AWACS target missiles in Rihad while it is over
Iraq? The missiles are not part of the vehicle yet it can target them them with
extreme accuracy. Here is a third party doing almost exactly what you say it
can't. The missiles may part of the base (IMO they are independant vehicles,
since they can be packed up and moved elswhere) but a third party (the AWACS)
feeds targetting information to the missile gunners who then fire the missile. If
need be the AWACS can even take over guidence of the missile.
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From: "Ron Abitz" <ronald@centraltx.net>
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll: Line of Sight
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 22:45:53 -0500
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----------
> From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
> Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> > At 10:21 PM 6/2/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote:
> > <clip>
> > Not a problem. As I stated elsewhere, Radar and Sonar are bought as
> > senses for the base or vehicle on which it is located. They can be
used as
> > very effective Targeting Senses for gunners on the base or vehicle,
with no
> > need for Clairvoyance (and the problems that go along with it). If a
third
> > party were to come along and tap into the system and see what the
> > base/vehicle radar/sonar operator sees, it's unlikely that said third
party
> > would be able to use the information for direct targeting --
extrapolation
> > would be needed, either by hand or computer.
>
> As I asked else where, how do AWACS target missiles in Rihad while it is
over
> Iraq? The missiles are not part of the vehicle yet it can target them
them with
> extreme accuracy. Here is a third party doing almost exactly what you
say it
> can't. The missiles may part of the base (IMO they are independant
vehicles,
> since they can be packed up and moved elswhere) but a third party (the
AWACS)
> feeds targetting information to the missile gunners who then fire the
missile. If
> need be the AWACS can even take over guidence of the missile.
Radar UBO,
Ron Abitz
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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 22:09:25 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Character Formats
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At 08:19 PM 6/3/1998 EDT, SteveL1979@aol.com wrote:
> I think that (b) definitely succeeded. I think (a) only partly
succeeded; I
>would prefer to see (1) a box around the sheet, like the old one, to give
it a
>little more definition for the eye (so to speak); (2) a column, probably on
>the right-hand side, where the costs of things are listed; it's too hard to
>find the cost of something as is; and (3) that Skills should always be listed
>in strict alphabetical order, not broken up into different categories and
>listed alphabetically in each category (makes you have to look in X places to
>find out if the character has a certain Skill).
(1) Actually the change in format from text to tabbed number/text
columns is plenty of format definition for me, but I don't really feel
strongly about it one way or the other.
(2) Absolutely. This change is the one big Minus on the current format,
compared to the old one.
(3) I disagree on this one. Grouping the Skills by category has made it
a lot easier for me to "visualize" how good a character at a general
endeavor, as well as find what would be an appropriate Complementary Skill
for a task (since it gives me a short list of related Skills to go through
instead of a long list of every Skill the character has). Additionally,
relating them by type helps me get a handle on exactly how the character
goes about things; there's a fine, subtle difference between how a street
urchin uses Stealth, and how a ninja uses Stealth. All that (especially
the part about Complementary Skills) is worth the extra second or so it
takes for me to find a particular Skill on two to four sub-lists.
> And I'd certainly agree that there ought to be a uniform way of writing all
>Powers, Disads, etc.; however, that would require Hero to spend a LOT of time
>preparing an elaborate Style Guide, and I'd just as soon see them produce
more
>products instead. :)
All I'm asking for is for a couple of points added to the formatting
guidelines they already have. Showing the build of Psychological
Limitations in particular would be helpful, since the varying intensities
have different mechanics for overcoming.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 00:33:51 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
To: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
CC: Champions Listserver <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll: Line of Sight
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Robert A. West wrote:
> Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> <clip>
> Thus, in every campaign in which I have played or GMed, TV is not
> reasonable for targeting any type of attack, but a targeting HUD is. A
> base may be equipped with high-resolution surveillance cameras that are
> designed to allow the inhabitants to target their indirect attacks.
> Without this capability, defending a base becomes *very* tough.
>
Next Question. What about the camera and HUD systems being mounted on the next
generation assault rifles. The system comes with a jacket the contains a complete
computer system with a 12 hour (I think) battery life. The assault rifle itself
has a camera mount that feeds into the computer and to the soldiers helmet mounted
HUD as well as a laser sigh, optional granade launcer and bayenette mount. In
tests the system has proven very successful in allowing soldier to fire their
weapons with relative accuracy from complete cover. With men literally shooting
around walls, through doors, windoes, etc. The report I saw said that deployment
would be started with in a couple years (in militray terms that's about 10 years).
The system has been tested with IR, UV, and termal imaging sights (N-Ray vision,
stopped by intense heat) and has supposedly proven quite successful. Once agian we
see weapons being targetted through TV camera. Admittedly military cameras and not
comerial ones. Is it that the military buys its cameras with a targetting sence
built in while commercial networks wouldn't spend the extra money (points) on
cameras with a targetting sence.
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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 23:10:27 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: Champions Listserver <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll: Line of Sight
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
(At least, I think it was Bob ... I never received the post where the
statement was made, so I had to infer the attribution from a later post
that quoted it.)
> Actually, By The Book, Clairvoyance in any form cannot be used to target
Where is this rule stated in the BBB? I am not particularly interested
in this connection with genre books to some genre I am not running, nor
in the Ultimate books, which are by their own admission highly optional,
and which not infrequently contravene the basic rules. This is a basic
rules question and should be resolvable using the rules in the BBB.
> an attack. As has been discussed and agreed to here, it can be used to
> gather enough information to make an educated guess as to where a "blind"
> attack should be aimed, but that's not the same as targeting (in Hero terms).
Agreed to? Pardon me, but I have commented more than once on this
thread. In at least two separate posts I have called this position
nonsense, and have quoted HSR text to prove that it is nonsense. To wit:
Clairsentience:
With this Standard Power, one of a character's senses (usually
normal sight) works at a distance. It is as if that character
were standing some distance away from his current position.
* * *
A character with Clairsentience should think of the perception
point as a spot he can put anywhere within the range of his
Clairsentience; he can then see (or hear, or smell, etc.)
anything near the perception point just as if he were standing
there himself.
This seems to leave no option. If a sense is discriminatory, tracking,
telescopic or targeting, then it retains precisely those features when
used via Clairsentience, since it would have those features if the
character owning the sense were standing there. This is, of course,
subject to veto if the special effect is wrong (as it would be for
mundane TV). Of course, in this case, the fact that a TV receiver is
paid for with money, not points, and that the transmitter is paid for
with someone else's money, militates in favor of the restrictive
interpretation.
I have played in a number of Champions campaigns, and have *never* seen
one that did not allow targeting of any attack via Clairsentience,
subject to reasonability of the special effect, and to the ability of the
attack to reach the target (i.e. mental or indirect). If it was the
intent of the designers to so restrict Clairvoyance, or just mental
powers via Clairvoyance, then this should have been stated in the basic
rules, and should be made crystal clear in 5ed.
Thus, in every campaign in which I have played or GMed, TV is not
reasonable for targeting any type of attack, but a targeting HUD is. A
base may be equipped with high-resolution surveillance cameras that are
designed to allow the inhabitants to target their indirect attacks.
Without this capability, defending a base becomes *very* tough.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
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Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 02:08:13 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
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> > How, in any way shape or form, does giving a power added ability
> > (that to be used two handed) constitute a disadvantage?
>
> By removing one's ability to use a shield or do things with one's other
> hand, Tim. it does not add to it, it takes away from it.
But it doesn't take that ability away. It just makes it possible
to use it two handed at the player's option, say if he looses his shield.
At that point, he gets to use the weapon at a lower STR min. Meanwhile,
someone with a one handed weapon who looses his shield is just screwed.
The only real rationale I can see is if all weapons have the
option to be used two handed. Weapons that are "one handed" get a -5 to
STR min if used two handed, while hand-and-a-half weapons get the book
value of -2 or -3, whichever it is.
This seems more reasonable. As I earlier pointed out, you are
otherwise taking that 2*END -1/2 lim and allowing, for -1/4, "sometimes
costs 2*END at player's option."
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: <filkhero@usa.net>
Cc: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Opinion Poll: Line of Sight
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 00:40:59 -0700
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> From: Ross Rannells [mailto:rossrannells@worldnet.att.net]
>
>
>
> Filksinger wrote:
>
> > From: Ross Rannells
> > >
> > > Filksinger wrote:
> > >
> > <snip>
> > >
> > > So you and I don't read into the ustated parts of the rules same way. The
> > > way it appears to
> > > me is that the location of the target needs to be known. Whether the location
> > > is thruough
> > > seeing the target (line of sight) or locating it through (mind scan). Either
> > > way once the
> > > location is known, other mental powers may be used.
> >
> > That is one interpretation. However, I believe it to be a false one. Under that
> > interpretation, the ability to hear a target on the other side of the wall
> would be "line
> > of sight". I believe that is stretching "line of sight" way to far.
> >
>
> I believe it to be true, so we are at an impass. Can we agree to disagree?
Probably best.:)
Filksinger
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 00:41:03 -0700
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> From: aregalad@miami.edu [mailto:aregalad@miami.edu]
>
>
> Maybe the targeting system is defined as a computer built into a power
> suit that automatically targets opponents once the character enters into
> target. Although the battle suit still benifits from the character being
> able to direct the attack, the blinded character says "Nuts! I'm blinded!
> Computer, fire rockets at target number 3! God, I hope that hits!"
In such a case, the suit would either have a Computer, be purchased as Combat Levels,
and/or have or give the user a type of Targeting Sense. This still leaves open the
question, though it may become, "How do you determine how well the computer can keep track
of a hex location in relation to itself when blind", as opposed to "How do you determine
how well the character can...."
> OR, maybe the "guidance system" is an enchanted weapon. All I'm really
> saying is that it all depends on special effect, so I'm not sure that
> you can have a meaningful discussion aobut what "makes sense" without
> talking about a specific special effect. I could be wrong, but those are
> my $.02 for what they are worth.
In my opinion, a Power which enhances the "targeting" of itself so far requires additional
abilities beyond NRM. I am trying to determine what people think these additional
abilities should be.
> Dragonfly
>
Filksinger
>
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 00:41:12 -0700
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> From: Ross Rannells [mailto:rossrannells@worldnet.att.net]
>
<snip>
>
> A weapon that you tell to go attack a location wuold probably need some sort of
> intellighence to
> guide it. I missle with a built in computer that would have to understand your
> language, have
> some targetting sense to and be able to use it, be able to pilot itself, have
> knowledge of the
> area being attacked and have weapon familiarity and skill levels in its
> warhead. If the computer
> has an ego or not may also come into play. I've found that the best way to
> build such attacks is
> either and automaton or vehicle with a computer rather then NRM. With the
> automaton/vehicle you
> also are freed from that maximum range rule also.
>
Agreed. However, the idea was to determine how hard it was to select a location for the
weapon to strike, at a range, when blinded.
For example, suppose I had Ego Attack. My GM rules that, if I cannot see the target, the
Ego Attack must be targeted using the rules for firing blind used under Darkness,
Invisibility, and Flash. I say, "Great! I have a 0 ECV to attack the villain who is in our
base in Seattle, even though I am in Antarctica!"
The GM, realizing what he has done, says, "Wait. Additionally, you have to tell me which
hex, in relation to you, that you are firing at, just like in some forms of firing blind
in 3rd Edition." The GM figures that this will put the player back a bit, and avoid the
problem.
The player then responds, "How do I do that? Do I declare that I am attacking a target
9,476 miles, 326 feet from me, twelve degrees west of true north? How do you know if that
is on target?"
Now, does the GM get out large maps and various navigational aids and determine the exact
figures(probably impossible), or does he create a mechanism for saying, "OK, make a PER
roll at -5, modified by range, with an AK roll also modified by range as a Complimentary
roll"? If he does the second, what should the mechanism be? The above would work, but is
it the best solution?
Filksinger
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 00:41:58 -0700
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> From: Jeff M. Reid
>
>
> > Personally, I find this an argument in favor of restricting the use
> > of NRM. A man-sized target at 10 miles? Sure -- the rules allow
> > it. But you'd better have a pretty damned good explanation of how
> > your character can pull something like that off.
>
> Hey, as far as I'm concerned, if the attacker can "see" (i.e. perceive with
> a targeting sense) a man-sized target at 10 miles (a big "if," considering
> that the Range mods for the PER Roll is in the neighborhood of -2000!), and
> he happens to have an attack with both the No Range Modifiers advantage and
> enough Increased Maximum Range to reach it, I say more power to him!
Agreed. That's what NRM is.
> If he >can't< perceive the target, he has no chance of hitting it because
> he has no idea where to shoot.
>
What if he is in his bedroom and wants to shoot the guy at his front door with his
eyebeams? Little chance, maybe, but no chance, just because he is firing blind? Worse yet,
the rules say he attacks with a 0 OCV.
Filksinger
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 00:42:07 -0700
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> From: Stainless Steel Rat
>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Filksinger writes:
>
> > So, you are saying that a NRM attack fired by a blind man from 3,000
> > miles should have the same chance to hit as a NRM fired by a blind man
> > only 10 feet away, even though he has no way of sensing the target?
>
> If the same power
OK.
>with the same target
OK.
>and the same range, yes.
Uh, I just said a _different_ range.
> The
> *POWER* has No Range Modifier, not the person using it.
>
> > Does he at least have to determine the location of the target's hex in
> > relation to him first?
>
> This has no bearing on NRM.
You don't need to have even an approximate location for your target in order to hit him
using NRM?
> > If so, how much harder is it to determine the relationship of that hex to
> > the power-user when the hex is farther away?
>
> Again, this has nothing to do with NRM. Ditto for the rest of your
> "points"; they are all issues of detecting the target, not using the
> power.
OK, fine. Now, my original post asked how you would model those "issues". You have made it
clear that you wouldn't model them by tampering in any way with NRM, but you haven't
answered the original question - how should they be modeled?
Filksinger
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Incompetent Players
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 00:42:39 -0700
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> From: aregalad@miami.edu
>
> No need to punish the character for the players actions. :]
> (Unless the player is REALLY incompetent).
>
Years ago I was in a game where one of the players was so incompetent, that in six games
(short campaign) he was the only one whose character died.
And he died five times.
Filksinger
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Weapon Hands Questions
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 00:42:43 -0700
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> From: Stainless Steel Rat
>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Tim R Gilberg writes:
>
> > How, in any way shape or form, does giving a power added ability
> > (that to be used two handed) constitute a disadvantage?
>
> By removing one's ability to use a shield or do things with one's other
> hand, Tim. it does not add to it, it takes away from it.
One-handed weapon
Can be used one handed.
Hand and a half weapon
Can be used one handed
AND
Can be used two handed.
The second has abilities the first lacks, _and_ all of the abilities of the first. If I
bought a power with a Limitation that I could _ignore at will_, would you allow me even
a -1/4 on that Limitation?
Filksinger
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Opinion Poll: Line of Sight
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 00:42:58 -0700
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> From: Robert A. West
>
>
> Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> (At least, I think it was Bob ... I never received the post where the
> statement was made, so I had to infer the attribution from a later post
> that quoted it.)
>
> > Actually, By The Book, Clairvoyance in any form cannot be used to target
>
> Where is this rule stated in the BBB? I am not particularly interested
> in this connection with genre books to some genre I am not running, nor
> in the Ultimate books, which are by their own admission highly optional,
> and which not infrequently contravene the basic rules. This is a basic
> rules question and should be resolvable using the rules in the BBB.
It doesn't. The only use of Clairvoyance that I can recall in any book to which this
question is relevant was in the Mystic Masters book, and it stated that you _could_ target
Powers via Clairvoyance.
Since the BBB does not mention this limitation, and does specify that the sense in use is
_identical_ to being there, I would rule that it _is_ Targeting, if the sense in question
is Targeting.
Does someone know of an example in one of the books that indicates that it is _not_
possible to use Clairsentience in this way?
Filksinger
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 00:43:28 -0700
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> From: Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin
>
>
> People talking about hitting man-sized targets at a distance of 10 miles
> appear to be overlooking the ultimate range modifier: the curvature of the
> Earth. In most cases, a target that small is going to vanish beyond the
> horizon and no amount of telescopic vision (or simiar SFX for cancelling
> range modifiers) is going to allow you to see it.
Actually, we weren't overlooking it. The implicit assumption, made early in a different
thread, was Powers that didn't care what was in the way, such as Mental Powers.
Filksinger
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Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 06:43:23 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: dive for cover question
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On Tue, 2 Jun 1998, Mike Christodoulou wrote:
> Well, if you're talking about House Rules here, then of course, anything
> goes.
>
> However, the Good Book says:
> 1. [Dive for Cover] enables the character to get out of the way of
> explosions and area effect attacks.
Also, it explicitly states that you can Abort to a Dive for Cover.
> 2. A character can abort his next action to perform a defensive
> Combat Maneuver or some other defensive action .... A character
> can't normally abort to a movement action.
Key word being "normally", since of course the Dive for Cover mechanic
is there to provide a way for characters to do just that, with some
restrictions.
It also states "A character can only Dive for Cover up to half his
maximum movement". Not half his Running, or half his Leaping distance,
but half of his maximum movement... that is to say, half of your
maximum (Running or Flight or Teleport or Swinging or whatever).
> Here are my observations:
> 3. Since you can't "normally" use a movement action in an abort, then
> logically, you can't teleport 5" straight up (to link this tirade
> to a previous post). I'm not exactly sure what they meant by
> "normally", which obviously leads to some leeway.
I can only read "normally" as meaning "other than the exception given
in the rules"... that being the Dive for Cover maneuver.
> 4. I wouldn't apply the "no movement" ban to Dive for Cover, since
> by its very nature, Dive for Cover is a movement. In particular,
> it's a jump, which is covered under the strength rules.
Nowhere is it stated to be a jump.
> 5. Interestingly enough, the Dive for Cover rules say nothing about
> the character winding up prone. I think that everybody has just
> interpreted it that way.
I haven't. It depends on what form of movement you're using to get to
the target hex.
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Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 06:49:46 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
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On Mon, 1 Jun 1998, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
> >> But that is an example. You would only include it in dinosaurs and
> >> Godzilla. Even dragons are too small for line attack claws.
> >
> >Dragons are smaller than dinosaurs?
>
> Godzilla is not a dinosaur.
Yes, but you said "dinosaurs and Godzilla".
> He is usually called hundreds of feet tall.
Comparable to the heavyweights among dragons, then, but not comparable
to the very biggest of them. Jormungand could probably swallow him in one
gulp.
> Dragons are usually tens of feet long. (Based on my extensive AD&D
> background. :-)
AD&D dragons are apparently wimps.:)
> Maybe I was wrong with dinos, especially since I don't think there were any
> long armed dinosaurs.
I don't see the "typical" dragon as being smaller than, say, a brontosaurus.
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Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 06:57:50 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Police Portrayal in Campaigns/ Good and Bad cops
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On Sun, 31 May 1998, Robert A. West wrote:
> > > The incident in Langley was covered up as a military plane crash. The
> > > PCs sent an anonymous letter to the DCI, attempting to straighten out the
> > > "Little misunderstanding in Langley,"
> >
> > The DCI had authority here? Man, WotC really is buying out everybody!:)
>
> ???
>
> DCI = Director of Central Intelligence. It is a common but ignorant
> error for reporters to refer to the office as "Director of the CIA". The
> Director is responsible for coordinating the efforts of the various
> intelligence agencies: CIA, DIA, DEA Intelligence, FBI Counter-
> intelligence, etc.
>
> Obviously, I am missing something?
DCI also = Duelists' Convocation International, the branch of WotC which
governs sanctioned tournaments for Magic: the Gathering. The Director of
Central Intelligence I'd never heard of, hence my joke.
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Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 07:00:40 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Killing vs Normal (was Re: Shapeshifting VPP)
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On Sun, 31 May 1998, Robert A. West wrote:
> While I agree that I would like the Killing Attack to do less STUN on
> expectation than a Normal attack, I find that the difference above fails
> to galvanize me.
The thing is, even if they were exactly the same in terms of delivering
STUN damage, it would still be a fairly big problem. The fact that the
Killing Attack is only slightly better in some circumstances fails to
mollify me.
> The extremely simple step of allowing the Resistant Defense to count double
> against the stun of a Killing Attack would more than solve the problem.
Not a bad idea. Has it been play-tested?
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Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 07:05:25 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
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On 3 Jun 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> > That's a disadvantage of using it two-handed, but how is it a
> > disadvantage of having the _option_ to use it two-handed?
>
> The disadvantage is not the option of using it one handed. A 1.5-hand
> weapon is a one-handed weapon that can be used with two hands (one-handed
> weapons cannot be wielded with two hands). With two hands it is a more
> effective weapon, but you cannot use a shield (your DCV suffers). Thus the
> limitation.
Umm. So if I have a plain Energy Blast, and wanted to apply the Limitation
"0 DCV Concentration when used as an Area Effect", you'd allow this as a
Limitation? After all, 0 DCV is more severe of a drawback than just not
having a shield.
A weapon with the "1.5-handed" Modifier can do everything the unmodified
case can, and do it exactly as well. So why should it get a cost break?
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Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 06:29:15 -0700
To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll: Line of Sight
Cc: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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At 09:00 PM 6/3/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote:
>Bob Greenwade wrote:
>> The question to ask is: Using *only* the information provided by the
>> system, can I reliably aim the weapon?
>> Let's go back to an earlier example which you never addressed:
>> You're in the living room of a house in a neighborhood you've never been
>> in, with an active TV and a sniper rifle.
>> The curtains are closed.
>> On the front lawn is a marksman's target.
>> Also on the front lawn is a camcorder on a tripod, pointing at the
>> target and hooked into the TV in the living room.
>> So you know that the target is in the front lawn, and can see it on
the TV.
>> Could you shoot the target as well as if the curtain were open?
>
>I answered this once, but since you asked I'll answer it a second time.
How well
>I can shoot it is not the question it's whether I can take the shot or
not. I can
>take the shot, I have at best a very slight chance of hitting the target
but I can
>still take the shot. Is that not what firing blind is?
Absolutely! This type of video monitor system -- the basic type, which
is what was originally under discussion -- does not represent a Targeting
Sense. The rifle cannot be targeted this way; thus, neither can Mental
Powers, and for the same reasons.
>> As to the Radar and Sonar, these are not Clairvoyance systems. These
>> are Radar and Sonar systems, for the base or vehicle being operated. A
>> gunner from the base or vehicle could easily use these systems for
>> targeting purposes. This does become a Targeting Sense in the Hero sense
>> of the word.
>
>Then what about an AWACS systems targetting missiles fired from a base in
Rihad,
>Suadi Arabia. Are you saying that the plane and the base are part of the
same
>system? One other question, where does it say in the Clairsentience rules
that it
>cannot be used for Radar or Sonar?
>
>> On the other hand, if someone a distance away from the base or vehicle
>> were to "tap in" to the signal and see what the radar or sonar system were
>> showing those inside the base or vehicle, he couldn't use that for simple
>> targeting; triangulation and other math would be required. This becomes a
>> non-Targeting Sense for purposes of Hero mechanics.
>
>So how did the AWACS target and fire missiles in Rihad during the gulf war?
With the aforementioned triangulation (and please note that I'm using
that term rather broadly). It was possibly done by hand, and possibly done
by computer; not being a military man (4-F), I wouldn't know. But I simply
cannot imagine that the AWACS were simply able to look at the radar screen
from a remote location with no other point of reference and fire weapons
from their own location with no electronic tie-in whatsoever with the radar
system.
>> I'm also increasingly of a suspicion that the HUD, as you've now
>> described it, is actually a Normal Sight system for a vehicle rather than a
>> Clairvoyance system (which would generally require that the point of
>> perspective be independent of the person viewing it).
>
>The A-10 has no vision system. The pilots had to use the missiles vision
sytem to
>fly and target by. If the HUD is a vision system for a vehicle then is it a
>vision system for a Colt .45 when mounted on one?
No, it's simply Skill Levels. A Colt .45 is not its own entity in the
Hero System. It has no Characteristics. A Vehicle has Characteristics,
and so it can have its own sensory systems. (And BTW a guided missile,
whether guided by a computer or by a human controller, and be written up as
a Vehicle.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 10:17:32 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Torg cards in HERO?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by aregalad@miami.edu
>Heh, I agree with you 100%. HAVE you ever experimented with using the
cards (or some variation) in HERO?<
Actually, I haven't used the (brilliant! -grin-) Torg cards much at all,
because Torg never got much of a foothold with my group. I haven't even
looked at the game in years, but I will probably take another look at those
cards now that you've brought them back up to the surface of my brain.
For those unfamiliar with the Torg cards, essentially each card gave a
suggestion as to what action to take...an example would be "Trick", which
could be throwing sand in the opponent's eyes or whatever. If you used the
suggestion, you got some kind of award (maybe a bonus to your die roll, I
can't remember), but you were never required to do as the card suggested.
Anyway, there were 5 or 6 major options such as "Trick" (I think another
was "Talk"), and you had to come up with your own variation of that option
to fit the scene. I can't remember how players accumulated cards, but I
think it was possible for a player to have a "hand" of cards at the same
time and he was free to play whichever he liked. Anyway, I'm being real
vague here (I definitely need to take another look at these cards), but it
was a really innovative way to get players to do lots of other things in
combat besides "attack" or "defend". Some might argue that a "good
role-player" doesn't need such a gimmick, but I have *never* seen a
role-player be as innovative in combat as these cards could provide, and
I'm sure I've gamed with at least one "good role-player" over the years.
Anyway, perhaps all that would be needed to use these cards in HERO would
be to change the "award" for using the suggestion into something
HERO-applicable, like bonuses to OCV or whatever. Or you could simplify it
and not have players keep hands of cards at the ready. Instead, just have
a special die (different color, or something) where 1 = Trick, 2 = Talk,
and so on....just roll this die at the beginning of each player's phase to
see what the "suggested action" is--since the player is not required to
follow this die roll, it would not get in the way of any pre-determined
strategy they had come up with.
If anyone is at all intrigued by this card system, I'd be happy to refresh
my memory on them and then post some more accurate, better detailed
information on them.
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Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 10:17:37 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade
> Losing track of his environment is just SFX. What happened in game
terms (IMO) was that his levels were in OCV instead of Flight -- something
that can be done fairly typically when one is making Half Moves and then
trying to draw a bead on the target -- and so he couldn't adjust his Turn
Mode in the narrow hallway, and ended up going splat against the wall.
(I've actually had a PC of my own do that in a game, too!)<
Skill levels in Flight? Have I forgotten a rule about using skill levels
to make your Turn Mode sharper than it would normally be?
I had a villain who *almost* went splat against the side of a
building....he decelerated and turned as quick as he could, and ended up
flying parallel to the wall in the adjacent hex...whew! I don't think I've
ever had an actual "splat" episode though.
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Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 09:54:27 -0500
To: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
Cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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At 11:57 AM 6/4/98 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>Yes, it does take some strength to use a halberd effectively two-handed.
>But one can be 10 STR and still use the weapon (we created a ruling about
>STR less than the STR Min reducing weapon damage). But, I seriously doubt
>a human-sized individual, no matter *how* strong, being able to
>effectively use a halberd with one hand.
It's hard for me not to think that this doubt is primarily rooted in the
fact that it's hard to find test subjects with 21+ STR to attempt such usage
in the first place. :]
>Try swinging a 5' broom around with one hand, you'll see where the trouble
>arises. It's unbalanced and clumsy.
I've tried it ... it is a little clumsy, but I'd just as easily attribute
that to my own weak arm and the inherent -3 OCV from me being an untrained
combatant. Specifically, it feels LESS unbalanced and clumsy to me than the
one-handed (museum replica) broadswords a friend of mine owns -- given six
months to train, I think I'd handle the broomstick BETTER.
--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
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Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 08:18:15 -0700
From: Darrin Kelley <flashbak@pacbell.net>
Reply-To: flashbak@pacbell.net
To: Fuzion Mailing List <fuzion@dour.org&> Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: A really bizarre concept.
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I just finished reading a pretty interesting couple of books. Yes,
they are gimmicks, but they seem to deserve honorable mention. Both
books are connected, and listed in order.
Star Trek The Next Generation / X-Men: Second Contact
This is the Marvel Comics special one shot comic book. The plot is
sort of weak, but it provides a good piece of history for the second
book I illustrate below. It is worth getting just based on that.
Star Trek The Next Generation / X-Men: Planet X
This is a full blown paperback novel by Michael Jan Friedman. I
bought it more as a curiousity piece than out of any form of
seriousness. Well, I just finished reading it. It was great! An
incredible book. I honestly loved it. It had a very good storyline. And
was was well worth my money.
Now comes the hook into the topics of the lists I am sending this
to:
I know that several people have done actual superhero games based in
the Star Trek background. Several people from these lists. But I have
not heard anyone tryong to do the type of crossover that was done in the
books I have spotlighted above. Star Trek is a pure science fiction
environment. X-Men are pure superhero. If any game systems could pull
such a similar thing off, it should be The Hero System and Fuzion.
My challenge to the lists are for people to come up similar
crossover ideas that could be used as a basis for adventures. And
suggestions on how to make the two completely different elements
actually work together effectively.
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Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 08:23:21 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 02:24 PM 6/4/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics?
>Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
>
>Message text written by Bob Greenwade
>> Losing track of his environment is just SFX. What happened in game
>terms (IMO) was that his levels were in OCV instead of Flight -- something
>that can be done fairly typically when one is making Half Moves and then
>trying to draw a bead on the target -- and so he couldn't adjust his Turn
>Mode in the narrow hallway, and ended up going splat against the wall.
>(I've actually had a PC of my own do that in a game, too!)<
>
>Skill levels in Flight? Have I forgotten a rule about using skill levels
>to make your Turn Mode sharper than it would normally be?
Apparently so (HSR, page 143, last paragraph, last sentence).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 11:40:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Gadget Belts
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What are people's thoughts and designing and building a 'Batman utility
belt'?
Should it be bought as a gadget pool?
A Mulitpower?
Or each item seperatly?
If a Multipower, what is the opinion of slapping an foci lim on the
Mulitpower pool itself? Should one put an OIF lim on the pool and then an
OAF lim on each slot?
Most of thse I've seen done as an OIF multipower (by both Aaron Allston
and Steve Long). You thoughts would be most welcome.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
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Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 11:57:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
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On Wed, 3 Jun 1998, Bryant Berggren wrote:
> At 01:01 AM 6/3/98 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> >I disagree with the need for 'obscene STR minima', as I feel it is very
> >unrealistic and silly. As Len pointed out in an earlier post, 18 STR for
> >a halberd is way to high.
>
> For one or two handed use? The point was that 'obscene minima' would be for
> one-handed use; is a 13 STR minima for two-handed (i.e. "normal") use too
> high? Or an 8? (I.e. if 2-handed use altered effective STR by 5 or 10 points).
Here are our revised stats for the halberd (from my gaming group).
Halberd, Long Poleaxe
Axe Head: +0 OCV, 2d6AP, +0 STUN, STR Min 12 (2-handed), Long weapon,
+1" range
Shaft: +0 OCV, (4d6) all others the same.
Yes, it does take some strength to use a halberd effectively two-handed.
But one can be 10 STR and still use the weapon (we created a ruling about
STR less than the STR Min reducing weapon damage). But, I seriously doubt
a human-sized individual, no matter *how* strong, being able to
effectively use a halberd with one hand. The weapon is usually 7' or more
in length. I doublt one will be able to get the proper leverage with one
hand to do any damage at all. You could thrust with it yes (treat it like
big AP spear), but cutting would be nigh-impossible.
Try swinging a 5' broom around with one hand, you'll see where the trouble
arises. It's unbalanced and clumsy.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
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Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 12:50:57 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by Jason Sullivan
>The 'Action Deck' is still available for _Master Book_, and I have
both the deck and the game itself.
There was a threada while back on converting the Action Deck (or
something similar to it) to HERO.<
Oops, I'm not familiar with Master Book. What sort of RPG is it? A
generic system?
What was the result of the thread on converting the Action Deck to HERO?
Is it a feasible idea?
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Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 11:56:48 -0500 (EST)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics?
To: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
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West End Games revised the concept of 'Action Cards' in
_Master Book_. In fact, when West End Games discontinued _Torg_ (and, I
believe, sold the rights of the game), in the final supplement, trhey
included rules to transfer characters to _Master Book_.
I believe _ShatterZone_ (also by WEG) was another game system that
used Action Cards.
The 'Action Deck' is still available for _Master Book_, and I have
both the deck and the game itself.
There was a threada while back on converting the Action Deck (or
something similar to it) to HERO.
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-Lord Byron; English Bards and Scotch Reviewers. Line 6.
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Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 11:15:50 -0600
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: A really bizarre concept.
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Darrin Kelley wrote:
> My challenge to the lists are for people to come up similar
> crossover ideas that could be used as a basis for adventures. And
> suggestions on how to make the two completely different elements
> actually work together effectively.
Heh, That's my career as a GM 8)
My FH games has almost all of the PCs begin from some earth related
timeline. The team has consisted of:
Gnome
Elf
Cyberpunk (street samurai)
Old West Doctor
Super Hero (Ma with small energy powers)
A Bond/McGyver type
Jedi Knight
Cthulian Investigator
Star Hero (Mobile infantry Armor)
Giant
I've also ran a Star Trek meets Star Wars thing...
On the web I ran into a pair of stories (don't remember the URL) that
was an ST:TNG, X-files, Highlander Crossover. Rather interesting.
-Mhoram
--
Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards,
for they are subtle and quick to anger. -J R R Tolkien
No matter how subtle the Wizard,
a knife between the shoulderblades will seriously cramp his style. -S
R Brust
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 13:00:17 -0500 (CDT)
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Gadget Belts
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>
> What are people's thoughts and designing and building a 'Batman utility
> belt'?
>
> Should it be bought as a gadget pool?
> A Mulitpower?
> Or each item seperatly?
>
> If a Multipower, what is the opinion of slapping an foci lim on the
> Mulitpower pool itself? Should one put an OIF lim on the pool and then an
> OAF lim on each slot?
>
> Most of thse I've seen done as an OIF multipower (by both Aaron Allston
> and Steve Long). You thoughts would be most welcome.
I've got mixed thoughts on this. I suppose a gadget pool is 'more correct'.
But then, unless the character actually is a gadgeteer, the pools got to
be big enough to handle all of the gadgets a character might carry,
which seems overly expensive. Of course, your skill roll could be defined
as 'selecting appropriate gadget' ahead of time, so your pool is actually
a matter of "I had the foresight to bring this with me" rather than "I will
now reconfigure these components into the perfect device for the situation."
A small gadget pool would be perfect however for the situation when you're
hunting down the psychopath pyrokinetic and decide to invest in some
fireproofing.
OTOH, multipowers seem too cheap. Plus, I believe that in the utility belt
situations there's no real justification for all of the powers to be
running off the same point pool.
I suppose that if you did go with a multipower for Batman's utility belt,
an OIF Utility Belt limitation on the whole multipower would make sense,
as would an OAF on the individual slots.
How about buying utility belts as perks ?
"Character may carry normal gadgets at no point cost".
"Character may carry X type of gadgets at no point cost". Where 'X' might
be "miniaturized versions of normal gadgets" OR "anything from this list
of equipment."
Curt Hicks
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Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 13:07:45 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Killing vs Normal (was Re: Shapeshifting VPP)
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> > The extremely simple step of allowing the Resistant Defense to count double
> > against the stun of a Killing Attack would more than solve the problem.
>
> Not a bad idea. Has it been play-tested?
Yup. Extensively. I actually thought that this was how it was
supposed to be done, with def for the STUN of a KA being the total of the
total defense and the resistent defense. I'd say it worked rather well,
because I noticed no real balance problems. And people that wanted a
heavy STUN attack would take an EB, not a KA. The KA was for Killing.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Subject: Re: Killing vs Normal (was Re: Shapeshifting VPP)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 14:40:40 -0400
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From: David Fair <dfair@sdslink.com>
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>
>> > The extremely simple step of allowing the Resistant Defense to count
double
>> > against the stun of a Killing Attack would more than solve the problem.
>>
>> Not a bad idea. Has it been play-tested?
>
> Yup. Extensively. I actually thought that this was how it was
>supposed to be done, with def for the STUN of a KA being the total of the
>total defense and the resistent defense. I'd say it worked rather well,
>because I noticed no real balance problems. And people that wanted a
>heavy STUN attack would take an EB, not a KA. The KA was for Killing.
>
Forgive me for not under standing but I am unclear as to what was the def
you used.
For Example:
El Defendo has a 10 pd, of which 5 points is Resitant (bought with DR)
are you saying that he would have
10 pd vs reqular attacks,
5 pd vs BODY of a Killing attack, and
15 pd vs STUN of a killing attack
or something else?
It seems like a rather interesting idea...
David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |
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From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@early.com>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapons Hands Questions
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 15:02:34 -0400
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Since this debate is proving so much fun, let me add a few more
ingredients to the stew.
A roguish female character in a Fantasy Hero campaign wields a
typical long sword. By that, I mean a sword with a straight blade 3
feet long, weighs 3 pounds, and has a handgrip only long enough to
accommodate one hand comfortably, say five inches. The GM treats
this as a "broad sword" from the official weapons table, so it's a
one-handed weapon with a 13 STR Min, does 1d6+1 damage, and has a +1
OCV (these are not the values I personally would assign to her long
sword, but no matter). The STR Min is convenient, since she has a 13
STR. She's a two-fisted fighter--she commonly wields a dagger in her
left hand.
The rogue is confronted by a brawny knight in full plate armor,
swinging a two-handed great sword. Fearing she is overmatched, she
throws her dagger at the knight hurriedly and awkwardly to distract
him for a second--the dagger bounces harmlessly off his breast
plate--and grips her sword with both hands, overlapping her left hand
over her right. It's not a comfortable grip, but she's not worried
about comfort at the moment. She believes she is trading a
questionable defensive edge ("Try to parry a great sword with a
dagger? What am I, stupid?") for other advantages.
She does this, reasoning that by holding the blade so, her two arms
together will grant greater impetus to her blows, which she will need
if she's to have a prayer of wounding the heavily armored knight.
She further reasons that the firmer grip will give her greater
strength should she attempt a Weapon Bind or Disarm maneuver (she
knows her foe is much stronger than she, and is an expert swordsman,
so she figures she'll attempt either maneuver only if she sees the
knight's strength flagging, say by his being wounded in one arm.)
She also does this to lessen her chance of being Disarmed by the
heavier blade. Her player knows that the GM uses the two-handed
Disarming rule on page 74 of Ninja Hero, which states that a
character holding a weapon in both hands gets an extra +5 STR for
holding on.
How to handle this event? The GM might rule by fiat: "No that's a
one-handed weapon, not a one-and-a-half handed sword. Since your
long sword doesn't have the -1/4 Limitation: One-and-a-Half Handed,
you cannot gain those advantages you want for your overlapping,
two-handed grip. If you want those advantages, you should have taken
the Limitation."
I can see this question arising for many one-handed weapons. A
baseball bat can be easily swung as a one-handed weapon by any
average man, but it's a more effective club if swung with two. A
bastard sword is essentially a long sword with a handgrip a few
inches longer, so it can be held more comfortably with both hands,
though the lower hand may overlap the pommel for a handgrip only
seven inches long (as opposed to a twelve-inch grip for a true
two-handed sword).
Say the rogue accepts the GM's ruling, goes back to the normal
one-hand grip, but survives the fight anyway. The adventure over,
she seeks out a skilled swordsmith renowned for the quality of his
work, and has the sword modified to a seven-inch grip, making it a
true hand-and-a-half sword. The swordsmith knows what he's doing, so
the blade's construction is weakened in no way by adding a longer
tang and handgrip. She's also pleased with the minor improvement in
its balance, the lengthening of the grip and lowering of the pommel
acting to shift the sword's center-of-gravity slightly closer to the
crossguard. Now this better balance is just a bit of color for the
campaign--the sword has the same OCV, the same damage potential, the
same STR Min. It's pretty much the same sword, just with a two-inch
longer grip.
Assume this is a campaign where weapons must be purchased with
character points. The blade is somewhat more costly than is typical
in terms of active points, with a minor illumination spell imbued
within it. With the blade's new One-and-a-Half Handed Limitation,
the real cost is reduced by a full point. The player asks that the
point saved be given back to her so she can spend it on one her
skills. Should the GM comply?
I would rather the whole issue of hand-and-a-half not be treated as a
Limitation applied to certain weapons. It is simply a feature of
many one-handed weapons--swords, axes, clubs, and so on. You can
hold a dagger in both hands if you want, perhaps to make sure you
don't lose your grip. Her sword's new, longer handgrip is just a
colorful campaign detail, of no greater importance than the shape of
the fuller cut along the blade's length or the decorative enameling
on crossguard and pommel. The rogue's investment in modifying her
blade is just an interesting way of spending her money and down-time,
not an issue of game mechanics.
Getting back to the fight example, if the GM permits her tactic, what
changes for her? Ninja Hero says she is now effectively an 18 STR
character for the purpose of resisting a Disarm attempt. I can find
nothing in Fantasy Hero on the subject of a change in STR Min for
wielding a strictly one-handed weapon in two hands. Maybe the GM
reduces the STR Min of her weapon by -2, treating the sword as
1.5-handed for this circumstance. Maybe the GM reduces the STR Min
by -3, if he uses a different house rule. She still doesn't get to
do more damage as she'd like; the STR Min would have to fall to 8 for
that. The Weapon Bind and Disarm maneuvers are more troublesome.
Does she gain a STR benefit with either for her two-handed grip? If
so, does she get a +2 STR change to be in line with FH, or a +5
doubling of her effective STR, as when she resists being Disarmed?
(I don't own TUMA, so I don't know what it says on this point.
Someone enlighten me.)
Maybe she should be treated as 13 STR, her full STR, for any
two-handed act, 8 STR for any one-handed act, apply the rule
uniformly, and make her blade an 8 STR Min for one-handed use. Leads
to arguments on other points, though, such as whether a one-handed
punch is only an 8 STR punch, and how much STR is in one leg or in
one finger. I don't want to go down that road.
Thinking over all this two-handed grip business, I like the
consistency of a +5 STR change for MA maneuvers and a -5 for STR Min.
Easy to remember. And I want that rogue to gain a damage bonus with
her sword. She'll likely need it.
Len Carpenter
redlion@early.com
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
David Majors writes:
> The problem is that the STR min rule for hand and a half weapons is based
> on one handed use and to pick up the extra 1/4 limitation you sacrifice
> nothing.(Actually you gain something in some cases)
You sacrifice your ability to use a shield.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
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Date: 04 Jun 1998 15:24:44 -0400
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Bryant Berggren writes:
> A 2-h weapon, which FORCES you to use both hands, removes something. A 1.5h
> weapon gives you the OPTION of two-handed use, and you DO get something back
> (-2 STR Min) when you choose to forego having a free hand. This is obviously
> a /benefit/ compared to 1-handed use.
And you *LOSE* the option of using a shield. You cannot use a shield if
you use two hands on the weapon. This is obviously a *DETRIMENT* compared
to a one-handed weapon with which one may *ALWAYS* use a shield.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
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Bob Greenwade writes:
> The real question, though, is: how is the hand-and-a-half weapon
> Limited, as compared to the one-handed weapon?
Using a shield is worth a +1 to +3 DCV bonus, depending on the size of the
shield.
Historically, soldiers and such armed with one-handed weapons carry shields
in their other hands. In fiction, it is rare for anyone other than a major
hero or villain to do so. This is the baseline that Hero is working from.
Compared with that baseline, being unable to use a shield because both of
your hands are occupied is a disadvantage.
Being completely unable to use a shield because of the weapon is a -1/2
limitation, according to Hero. That is *ALL* the "two-handed weapon"
limitation means.
Being unable to use a shield some of the time is a greater than -0
limitation, but less than -1/2: -1/4. That is *ALL* the "hand-and-a-half
weapon" limitation means.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
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Date: 04 Jun 1998 15:38:50 -0400
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Trevor Barrie writes:
> Umm. So if I have a plain Energy Blast, and wanted to apply the Limitation
> "0 DCV Concentration when used as an Area Effect", you'd allow this as a
> Limitation? After all, 0 DCV is more severe of a drawback than just not
> having a shield.
The weapon limitations are for heroic scale campaigns. Comparing with
superheroics is senseless.
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Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 13:39:50 -0600
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: A really bizarre concept. <part 2>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Darrin Kelley wrote:
> My challenge to the lists are for people to come up similar
> crossover ideas that could be used as a basis for adventures. And
> suggestions on how to make the two completely different elements
> actually work together effectively.
My last post I left off advice... oops.
First, in the beginning revel in the differences. Part of the fun in
reading such crossovers is the culture clash- set up situations where
that happens. People coming from very different preconceptions always
have fun learning each others nuances. Remember Blackthorne's slow
understanding of the Japanese in Shogun... There you go. However don't
overdo it; this can get tedious quickly- Also if you embarress the PCs,
make a point of doing the same kind of situation to the NPCs...
A wonderfull example of the culture clash came up in my FH game (stolen
pretty straitforward out of Nueromancer). Withing the first few days of
appearing in the Fantasy World, everyone was gathered in a clearing
(springtime) discussing what was going on. The Cyber character was very
figdety and uncomfortable... finally exclaiming "What is That
STENCH!?!".. he was of course refering to the grass and flowers.
Second Give each character or something that focuses on his
differances, and lets his particular background save the day-
In the FH game, the bond/MCgyver type built some nifty radio
transmitters from parts the Cyber Character carried. The Old west doctor
stopped a plauge. The Cyber (having come to love the new world) saw a
new ingested magical chemical being marketed- just like recreational
drugs in his world. He stopped it. Each side of a cross-over has
background and knowledge that the other side lacks- let them use it.
Lastly, if it a long term thing (campaign as opposed to adventure) let
people develop ties, and find themselves becoming attached to the new
home (and give them a reason to do so). In Shogun, Blackthorn became (in
some ways) very Japanese... In my FH game the Cyber character fell
completely in love with the beauty and 'innocence' of his new world; he
would never even consider moving back 'home'. Have the character wake up
3 years later and realize they have gone native- it makes for a
wonderful soul-searching scene.
Hope it helps.
-Mhoram
--
Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards,
for they are subtle and quick to anger. -J R R Tolkien
No matter how subtle the Wizard,
a knife between the shoulderblades will seriously cramp his style. -S
R Brust
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Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 14:51:23 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Killing vs Normal (was Re: Shapeshifting VPP)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> Forgive me for not under standing but I am unclear as to what was the def
> you used.
No prob. I'd explain, but . . .
> For Example:
>
> El Defendo has a 10 pd, of which 5 points is Resitant (bought with DR)
>
> are you saying that he would have
>
> 10 pd vs reqular attacks,
> 5 pd vs BODY of a Killing attack, and
> 15 pd vs STUN of a killing attack
You got it exactly right. Just look at that PD/rPD or ED/rED
column over to the right of the standard character sheet. Normal attacks
defend at the D level, the BOD of KA attacks at the rD level, and the STUN
of KA attacks at the sum of the two. So yes, you had it correctly.
> or something else?
Nope.
> It seems like a rather interesting idea...
Like I said, this was how I thought it was to be done officially,
until learning otherwise a couple of years ago. It did seem to be a bit
better balanced than the official way of doing things to the extent that
people didn't take KAs merely for high STUN potential.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapons Hands Questions
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 04 Jun 1998 15:56:16 -0400
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Len Carpenter writes:
> A roguish female character in a Fantasy Hero campaign wields a
> typical long sword. By that, I mean a sword with a straight blade 3
> feet long, weighs 3 pounds, and has a handgrip only long enough to
> accommodate one hand comfortably, say five inches. The GM treats
> this as a "broad sword" from the official weapons table,
This is a mistake; it is not a broadsword. The (nonexistant outside of
D&D) broadsword has a much larger hilt and a wider blade -- think Conan's
sword. This is a long sword.
Regardless, special effects say that it is a 1-handed weapon; it cannot be
wielded effectively with two hands. The extra hand adds no leverage, and
hinders the free movement of the other arm, especially the wrist, which is
the source of much of the impetus behind a one-handed blade.
At this point I have to ask, if she knows the guy is stronger and better,
why is she standing there waiting to be chopped up into kibble?
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Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 14:57:36 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> > weapon gives you the OPTION of two-handed use, and you DO get something back
> > (-2 STR Min) when you choose to forego having a free hand. This is obviously
> > a /benefit/ compared to 1-handed use.
>
> And you *LOSE* the option of using a shield. You cannot use a shield if
> you use two hands on the weapon. This is obviously a *DETRIMENT* compared
> to a one-handed weapon with which one may *ALWAYS* use a shield.
And one may always use a shield with a 1.5 handed weapon. Just
don't use it two handed. Then you have a free -1/4 limitation. And,
should you happen to lose your shield during combat, you have the option
to switching to two hands for a STR min *advantage* while someone with the
unlimited 1-handed weapon cannot. How is this at all limiting, Rat?
It would be if the character were forced to use it two-handed for
a good portion of the time, being unable to use an available shiled, but
this limitation doesn't do that.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 15:01:22 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> Being completely unable to use a shield because of the weapon is a -1/2
> limitation, according to Hero. That is *ALL* the "two-handed weapon"
> limitation means.
No argument there.
> Being unable to use a shield some of the time is a greater than -0
> limitation, but less than -1/2: -1/4. That is *ALL* the "hand-and-a-half
> weapon" limitation means.
And you are making yourself look worse and worse here. Some other
arguments, you've actually had something to say for your side of it. This
time, you have nothing. The limitation doesn't require the loss of the
shiled, it just allows the character to *shoose* to forgo the shield.
There is nothing stopping him or her from always using this weapon, with a
-1/4 limitation, as if it were the non-limited 1 handed weapon.
You have done nothing to address this point. Are you too stubborn
to recognize an error in the rules when you see it?
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Tim R Gilberg writes:
> And one may always use a shield with a 1.5 handed weapon. Just
> don't use it two handed.
Then you cannot use the weapon at its full effectiveness. That requires
two hands. You get the limitation because you cannot have both.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 04 Jun 1998 16:13:53 -0400
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Tim R Gilberg writes:
> And you are making yourself look worse and worse here. Some other
> arguments, you've actually had something to say for your side of it.
> This time, you have nothing. The limitation doesn't require the loss of
> the shiled, it just allows the character to *shoose* to forgo the shield.
Which is why it is less of a disadvantage than not having that choice at
all.
> There is nothing stopping him or her from always using this weapon, with a
> -1/4 limitation, as if it were the non-limited 1 handed weapon.
By chosing never to be without a shield, she choses to use her weapon to
less than its full capability. So she is *still* at a disadvantage.
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Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 16:45:51 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: HSR 5th Edition and Fuzion
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Will HSR 5th edition have any mention of Fuzion, such as explaining how to
convert back and forth between the systems?
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Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 16:02:51 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> > And one may always use a shield with a 1.5 handed weapon. Just
> > don't use it two handed.
>
> Then you cannot use the weapon at its full effectiveness. That requires
> two hands. You get the limitation because you cannot have both.
Full effectiveness? You mean for this -1/4 limitation I can get a
-2 to STR min when using it two handed? But this doesn't change the fact
that, by using this weapon one handed, I have exactly the same weapon as I
would for no limitation. With the limitation, I am better off than someon
with a more expensive one-handed weapon if we were both to find ourselves
without shields. This isn't a limitation. Rememver, a limitation that
doesn't limit the character is worth no points.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 17:49:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: David Majors <asmodeus@shell.ezy.net>
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On 4 Jun 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> David Majors writes:
>
> > The problem is that the STR min rule for hand and a half weapons is based
> > on one handed use and to pick up the extra 1/4 limitation you sacrifice
> > nothing.(Actually you gain something in some cases)
>
> You sacrifice your ability to use a shield.
>
The answer is "No you don't"...
You can use a 30 active point sword with the limitation 1.5 hands with 15
strength in one hand.
AND
You can use a 30 active point sword "WITHOUT" the limitation in one hand
at guess what... 15 strength!
So, there is NO difference as I said before.
David Majors
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Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 14:50:54 -0700
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Gadget Belts
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 11:40 AM 6/4/1998 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>What are people's thoughts and designing and building a 'Batman utility
>belt'?
>
>Should it be bought as a gadget pool?
>A Mulitpower?
>Or each item seperatly?
>
>If a Multipower, what is the opinion of slapping an foci lim on the
>Mulitpower pool itself? Should one put an OIF lim on the pool and then an
>OAF lim on each slot?
>
>Most of thse I've seen done as an OIF multipower (by both Aaron Allston
>and Steve Long). You thoughts would be most welcome.
Dave Mattingly and I are in the early stages (read: proposal stage) of
The Ultimate Gadgeteer, and this is a quite natural inclusion.
At this point, we're leaning toward the OIF Multipower model as the
"norm," since it has precedent. However, there is something to be said for
the other two models you mention.
A VPP Utility Belt can have anything in it, as long as no single item's
Active Points exceeds the size of the VPP Pool, and the total real points
of all items being used at one time also do not exceed the size of the
Pool. (This is, of course, the normal workings of a VPP.) Having a Pool
this broad can be unbalancing, however, if the No Skill Roll and 0-Phase
Action Advantages are taken. I'll grant that this would be a tad on the
expensive side (40 points for a 20 point VPP, if my math is right, assuming
OIF is the only global Limitation), but this is a Pool that can do an
immensely broad range of things. I'd recommend that, if a VPP is used, it
be modeled with either No Skill Roll, Only Change At Base (meaning the
character has a nigh-infinite arsenal of goodies but has to select what he
has before he leaves on the adventure) or 0-Phase Action (meaning he can
decide instantly what he has, but has to make a Skill Roll -- probably
Resourcefulness, a new INT-based Skill I'm introducing here, or something
similar -- to see if he thought to bring along any given device).
As for the idea of buying each item separately, this too has a good
point -- to wit, the character can use any combination of the gadgets, or
even all of them, at the same time. On the down side, this becomes fairly
expensive if a belt has a lot of stuff on it, so not all characters should
try this.
As for putting OIF on the Pool and OAF on each slot, I would indeed
recommend this. The OAF means that each item can be taken away during
combat while it's in use; the OIF means that, out of combat, the entire
belt can be removed at once, depriving the character of all of the stuff on
it.
That's a sketch of my thoughts on the topic. Now if you'll please
excuse me, I need to go find my asbestos suit. ;-]
---
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 04 Jun 1998 17:56:33 -0400
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Tim R Gilberg writes:
> Full effectiveness? You mean for this -1/4 limitation I can get a
> -2 to STR min when using it two handed?
No, for a -1/4 you cannot use a shield if you do so. You are restricted
exactly as if you were wielding a two-handed weapon. While you use two
hands you are using a two-handed weapon.
You can get the damage, or you can use a shield, but you cannot have both
at the same time.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
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Filksinger writes:
> You cannot have both with a one-handed weapon, either. A one-handed
> weapon doesn't even offer you the _option_ of achieving the "full
> effectiveness" of a 1 1/2 hand weapon. It is limited in relation to a 1
> 1/2 hand weapon, because it offers fewer options.
Wrong. A one-handed weapon can always be used to its full possible effect
with one hand, and your other hand is always free to do something else.
A hand-and-a-half weapon can have full effect, or you can have a shield,
but you cannot have both at the same time.
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Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 18:03:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: David Majors <asmodeus@shell.ezy.net>
Reply-To: David Majors <asmodeus@shell.ezy.net>
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On 4 Jun 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> > There is nothing stopping him or her from always using this weapon, with a
> > -1/4 limitation, as if it were the non-limited 1 handed weapon.
>
> By chosing never to be without a shield, she choses to use her weapon to
> less than its full capability. So she is *still* at a disadvantage.
But the disadvantage does not raise the strength minimum. She is not
losing anything, she is gaining an added function that she choses not to
use. The added function should NOT give her points. That is the whole
reason for this debate.
If the STR min was raised, you would absolutely be correct. BUT, since it
isn't she gains a FREE limitation of -1/4.
Do the math Rat. Try stepping back for a minute and calculate the
strength minimums. See the fact that the character who has a 1 handed
weapon is really at a disadvantage to the one with a 1.5 handed weapon.
The one handed guy can ONLY use the weapon in one hand at 15 STR.
(based on 2d6 killing)
While the one and a half handed sword wielding guy can wield the same
damage in 1 hand at the same 15 STR "OR" drop his shield and get the STR
minimum lowered to 13 STR.
This is WHY the current limitation of 1.5 hands is NOT a limitation.
Giving the wielder the ability to NOT use a shield and then having them
wear a shield anyway has NOT impeded them. It has only made the real
point cost lower on the same sword. (Which matters if you make players pay
for magical items that they start the campaign with. Which some GMs do.)
David Majors
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Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 15:20:34 -0700
To: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Steve Long's Original Mental Combat Maneuvers
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 06:47 PM 2/26/1998 -0600, Tim Gilberg wrote:
>O.K, I know it's been a while, but I was just able to scare up
>file with Long's Mental Combat Maneuvers. Without further ado:
Thanks for finding and posting these, Tim. I don't currently have a
full-fledged mentalist in my group (Rattler hardly counts), but if I do I'm
going to want to have these available.
I snipped the basic maneuvers, but I have some thoughts on the Advanced
Maneuvers:
>Advanced Maneuvers
>Cerebral Assault 4 1/2 -1 -1 2d6 NND (Power Defense)
>Ego Crush 5 1/2 -2 +1 Ego Attack +4 DC
>Ego Siphon 4 1/2 -1 -1 2d6 EGO Drain
>Ego Strike 4 1/2 +1 +1 Ego Attack +2 DC
>Mental Lock 4 1/2 -2 -2 "Disarm" mental power for
> 1d6 Segments; requires same
> power
>Mind Block 4 1/2 +2 +2 "Block" mental attacks;
> requires same power; Abort
>Mind Destruction 5 1/2 -2 -2 1/2d6 RKA
>Mind Evade 4 1/2 -- +5 "Dodge" mental attacks;
> Abort
>+1 Damage Class 4
This is, of course, strikingly close to some of the basic maneuvers for
Martial Arts (probably because these maneuvers are built on the same
structure). This brings to mind the idea of building additional Mental
Combat Maneuvers based on other existing maneuvers.
For instance, I could invent a Mind Hold (-2 OCV, -2 DCV, "Grab" Mind,
+5 EGO for holding on). Holding on to a target would require an EGO vs EGO
Roll similar to the STR vs STR used for regular Grabs. The attacker could
then perform most of the options with Grab (mostly "locking" the target's
mental powers to keep them from being used, or "redirecting" one to himself
or some other target -- though I imagine giving his mind a mental
"squeeze," doing STR-like damage with EGO, could be a possibility as well).
Of course, if there's a Mind Hold, there would have to be a Mental
Escape (-1 OCV, -1 DCV, +10 EGO vs Mind Hold).
Mental-based versions of Counterstrike, Eye Gouge, Joint Break, and a
maybe few others would also be possible.
Given enough maneuvers, one could devise different schools of mental
discipline in much the same way that martial artists have schools of
physical discipline. A mentalist-centered supers campaign could include a
Hwarang-Do practitioner whose training includes Korean mental disciplines,
a former KGB agent from the paranormal operatives division, a member of a
San Francisco enclave of psychics, and a Varanyi, each of which trained in
a different mental discipline and has different ways of going about things
in mental combat.
The short of it is that these maneuvers, like the modifiers Steve
Peterson replaced them with, serve to give mental combat more variety,
especially in campaigns that are heavy on them.
> I personally haven't used them yet, but do think that
>they are more useful than the ones included in TUM. Anyone else?
To this point, I think one can mix and match. In fact, most of the
"maneuvers" that Steve Peterson put in TUM, I don't even think of as
maneuvers so much as modifiers.
On a similar topic, folks may have noticed that Latent Mentalist, as
printed, enables a character to use Basic Mental Combat Maneuvers, which of
course were left out. As a replacement rule, I would allow characters with
Latent Mentalist (if I had any) to use the four Defensive "maneuvers" or a
Mind Shield. Does anyone have any thoughts on this rule?
---
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Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 15:26:03 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 03:24 PM 6/4/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Bryant Berggren writes:
>
>> A 2-h weapon, which FORCES you to use both hands, removes something. A 1.5h
>> weapon gives you the OPTION of two-handed use, and you DO get something
back
>> (-2 STR Min) when you choose to forego having a free hand. This is
obviously
>> a /benefit/ compared to 1-handed use.
>
>And you *LOSE* the option of using a shield. You cannot use a shield if
>you use two hands on the weapon. This is obviously a *DETRIMENT* compared
>to a one-handed weapon with which one may *ALWAYS* use a shield.
But on the other hand, a one-handed weapon may *never* be used two-handed.
I have to side with the others on this one, Rat. A character with a
hand-and-a-half weapon can go through an entire campaign without ever using
two hands on it, and always get to use his shield, all the while getting a
-1/4 Limitation for something that never actually limits him. I cannot
Stretch my imagination far enough to see how that's Limiting, compared to
just a straight one-handed weapon.
---
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Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 15:33:46 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 03:37 PM 6/4/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>Bob Greenwade writes:
>
>> The real question, though, is: how is the hand-and-a-half weapon
>> Limited, as compared to the one-handed weapon?
>
>Using a shield is worth a +1 to +3 DCV bonus, depending on the size of the
>shield.
>
>Historically, soldiers and such armed with one-handed weapons carry shields
>in their other hands. In fiction, it is rare for anyone other than a major
>hero or villain to do so. This is the baseline that Hero is working from.
>
>Compared with that baseline, being unable to use a shield because both of
>your hands are occupied is a disadvantage.
>
>Being completely unable to use a shield because of the weapon is a -1/2
>limitation, according to Hero. That is *ALL* the "two-handed weapon"
>limitation means.
>
>Being unable to use a shield some of the time is a greater than -0
>limitation, but less than -1/2: -1/4. That is *ALL* the "hand-and-a-half
>weapon" limitation means.
A character with a hand-and-a-half weapon may use a shield any time he
wants. He just sacrifices the option of using the weapon two-handed by
using the shield, and this option he's sacrificing does not exist in the
first place for a one-handed weapon. For this to be a Limitation that
actually limits the character, he would have to be not be the one in
control of the situation.
I'm for the suggestion someone had (I think it was Tim) of making
hand-and-a-half the default mode, and letting "One-handed" and Two-Handed"
-1/4 Limitations.
---
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Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 15:42:34 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 04:09 PM 6/4/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>Tim R Gilberg writes:
>
>> And one may always use a shield with a 1.5 handed weapon. Just
>> don't use it two handed.
>
>Then you cannot use the weapon at its full effectiveness. That requires
>two hands. You get the limitation because you cannot have both.
Am I missing something here? Isn't the STR Min for a hand-and-a-half
weapon used one-handed the same as for a one-handed weapon?
If the hand-and-a-half weapon has a higher STR Min used one-handed than
a straight one-handed weapon, then you may have a point here.
Otherwise there is no mathematical difference, at least that I can see,
between a one-handed weapon and a hand-and-a-half weapon used exclusively
one-handed. They have the same OCV, the same damage, the same STR Min, the
same END usage, the same damage added for STR, and the same ability to use
a Shield. In fact, the only difference between the two (at least, that I
can see) is that the hand-and-a-half weapon has the added ability of
ditching the shield for some additional damage.
---
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Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 23:30:03
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Tim R Gilberg writes:
>
> > And one may always use a shield with a 1.5 handed weapon. Just
> > don't use it two handed.
>
> Then you cannot use the weapon at its full effectiveness. That requires
> two hands. You get the limitation because you cannot have both.
You cannot have both with a one-handed weapon, either. A one-handed weapon doesn't even offer you the _option_ of achieving the "full effectiveness" of a 1 1/2 hand weapon. It is limited in relation to a 1 1/2 hand weapon, because it offers fewer options.
Filksinger
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Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 23:31:14
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Bryant Berggren writes:
>
> > A 2-h weapon, which FORCES you to use both hands, removes something. A 1.5h
> > weapon gives you the OPTION of two-handed use, and you DO get something back
> > (-2 STR Min) when you choose to forego having a free hand. This is obviously
> > a /benefit/ compared to 1-handed use.
>
> And you *LOSE* the option of using a shield. You cannot use a shield if
> you use two hands on the weapon. This is obviously a *DETRIMENT* compared
> to a one-handed weapon with which one may *ALWAYS* use a shield.
A one-handed weapon may *ALWAYS* use a shield. A hand-and-a-half weapon may *ALWAYS* use a shield. You don't _have_ to use two hands, _ever_.
No matter how limited the second option of using two hands may be, it doesn't limit the first option in the slightest.
However, you
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 18:58:34 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
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I thought I would be cute and start a new thread (and separate the
discussion a bit), with my post:
Only For Those Who Understand Why Weapon Hands Rules are Broken
Was that a mistake? I haven't seen any replies to it, and I cannot believe
that it is less interesting than arguing with Rat :-) OTOH, we had some
connection trouble yesterday, did it never get posted properly?
I'd like some feedback since this actually matters in our campaign.
Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 18:58:58 -0500 (EST)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics?
To: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, David Stallard wrote:
> Message text written by Jason Sullivan
> >The 'Action Deck' is still available for _Master Book_, and I have
> both the deck and the game itself.
> There was a threada while back on converting the Action Deck (or
> something similar to it) to HERO.<
>
> Oops, I'm not familiar with Master Book. What sort of RPG is it? A
> generic system?
It's a generic system, all though they have published many
supplements for it (Tales From The Crypt, Indiana Jones, Necroscope,
Species, Tank Girl, Bloodshadows, etc.). There are conversions for other
WEG as well,
like Torg and their D6 based games... all though I don't know the
specifics on that.
> What was the result of the thread on converting the Action Deck to HERO?
> Is it a feasible idea?
Not much of a response. It ended up going to private mail, where
I typed an elaborate description of each type of card and what it did to
one or two people. I felt I didn't have a good grasp of either game
system, so I didn't want to fiddle with it.
I wanted to use the system to enhance plots for my HERO games,
since it gives the player more control during a story (...for instance,
they can play a card to have a personal stake in the matter somehow, or
have an NPC that you introduce become more prevalent in the plot [and back
then, I felt my game needed it, because I was known for being notoriously
strict with the plausibility of my plots.])
-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+-
"Fools are my theme, let satire be my song."
-Lord Byron; English Bards and Scotch Reviewers. Line 6.
-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-
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Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 20:15:57 -0400
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 02:47 PM 6/3/98 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>Joe Mucchiello writes:
>> Entirely different, with clinging you can stop in mid air.
>
>Oh. Well. That is "Flight".
>
>> If you get grabbed and thrown there will be collateral damage on the wall
>> you were clinging to.
>
>Only if you are thrown into said wall.
The point of the power is that the wall WILL take collateral damage if the
character is knocked around while "Clinging" to it, at range. Thus
Clinging, Ranged. A weird Damage Shield which targets wall would be silly.
Joe
(Only a slightly late response.)
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Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 17:30:05 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Killing vs Normal
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 07:54 PM 6/4/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
>Cc: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
>Subject: Re: Killing vs Normal (was Re: Shapeshifting VPP)
>
>> El Defendo has a 10 pd, of which 5 points is Resitant (bought with DR)
>>
>> are you saying that he would have
>>
>> 10 pd vs reqular attacks,
>> 5 pd vs BODY of a Killing attack, and
>> 15 pd vs STUN of a killing attack
>
> You got it exactly right. [snip]
>
>> It seems like a rather interesting idea...
>
> Like I said, this was how I thought it was to be done officially,
>until learning otherwise a couple of years ago. It did seem to be a bit
>better balanced than the official way of doing things to the extent that
>people didn't take KAs merely for high STUN potential.
On the face of it, I wouldn't like this idea; but considering you've
playtested it extensively (by virtue of having thought for a long time that
this was how it was already supposed to be done), I do like it, though the
reason you give above is the only real reason for me to like it. (I guess
I'd have to playtest it for myself, probably in a fantasy setting where
Killing and Normal attacks would, by genre, exist side-by-side at about
50/50 proportions.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 17:45:31 -0700
To: hero-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Bab 5 Hero: Races; Non-aligned worlds
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 07:08 PM 6/1/1998 -0500, Tim Statler wrote:
>The Pak have a very strong odor but not that bad. Remember, Pak do sit
>in council. I'm debating the Discrim yet. (If anyone else is reading
>this I could use another opinion.)
A person is normally immune to one's own odor; that's how people who
develop incredible body odors, either as an affliction or due to poor
hygiene, can stand to be around themselves. Thus, the Pak could be immune
to the unpleasantness of their own odors (at no point cost).
>I have to look up the Green/Purple. Ivanova solved the B5 problem by
>marching the greens to be dyed purple. By the 5th season, it seemed to
>be over. I don't remember when it starts up again.
After seven years, if I recall correctly (which would put the next
conflict somewhere between the end of the B5 cycle and the beginning of the
Crusade cycle).
And on the top of the Drazi, I'm starting to suspect that they don't
have personal names. Ever hear one addressed or referred to by name? The
Drazi ambassador is just "The Drazi Ambassador." I don't know that this
would be reflected in Hero terms, but it's an interesting point.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 20:50:16 EDT
To: hero-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Base Extras
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
I am looking for a way to simulate base extras like extreme weather clothes
ect. that my groups superteam members not so gifted as to have safe environs
can use. Attaching them to the base seemed to be a good wasy of evenly
distibuting the points but I'm stuck as to how to sumulate it. A lot of
independent or oif safe environs for specific suits would get to cumbersome
and simplifying it to say one suit does it seems a little to unrealistic. any
ideas out there.
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Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 17:51:13 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 05:58 PM 6/4/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Filksinger writes:
>
>> You cannot have both with a one-handed weapon, either. A one-handed
>> weapon doesn't even offer you the _option_ of achieving the "full
>> effectiveness" of a 1 1/2 hand weapon. It is limited in relation to a 1
>> 1/2 hand weapon, because it offers fewer options.
>
>Wrong. A one-handed weapon can always be used to its full possible effect
>with one hand, and your other hand is always free to do something else.
>A hand-and-a-half weapon can have full effect, or you can have a shield,
>but you cannot have both at the same time.
You're looking at "its full possible effect" without comparing what the
"full possible effect" of the respective weapons are. The hand-and-a-half
weapon has a *greater* "full possible effect" when used two-handed than the
one-handed weapon has when used one-handed.
As I mention in another post, when you compare the numbers -- the
*actual numbers in play*, not compared to what *could* be done -- the
one-handed weapon is identical to a hand-and-a-half weapon used one-handed.
The only difference is that the hand-and-a-half weapon has an additional
option, for which it gets a -1/4 Limitation.
---
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Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 00:56:10
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> David Majors writes:
>
> > The problem is that the STR min rule for hand and a half weapons is based
> > on one handed use and to pick up the extra 1/4 limitation you sacrifice
> > nothing.(Actually you gain something in some cases)
>
> You sacrifice your ability to use a shield.
You can use it one-handed, in which case it works exactly like a one-handed weapon. You give up no part of your ability to use it one-handed. Adding the _option_ of using it two-handed costs you nothing unless you _choose_ to use it, but is considered a Limitation. A Limitation that only exists when you _choose_ to have it is not a Limitation.
Filksinger
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Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 01:04:33
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Filksinger writes:
>
> > You cannot have both with a one-handed weapon, either. A one-handed
> > weapon doesn't even offer you the _option_ of achieving the "full
> > effectiveness" of a 1 1/2 hand weapon. It is limited in relation to a 1
> > 1/2 hand weapon, because it offers fewer options.
>
> Wrong. A one-handed weapon can always be used to its full possible effect
> with one hand,
Agreed. I said it doesn't allow the option of achieving the "full effectiveness" of a 1 1/2 hand weapon.
>and your other hand is always free to do something else.
> A hand-and-a-half weapon can have full effect, or you can have a shield,
> but you cannot have both at the same time.
Let me see if I understand. I have a power X. I can have it unlimited, or I can limit it with a 1/2 Limitation, or I can have both for a 1/4 Limitation. Is this correct?
Filksinger
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Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 20:10:06 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
To: filkhero@usa.net
CC: Hero List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Filksinger wrote:
> > From: Ross Rannells [mailto:rossrannells@worldnet.att.net]
> >
> <snip>
> >
> > A weapon that you tell to go attack a location wuold probably need some sort of
> > intellighence to
> > guide it. I missle with a built in computer that would have to understand your
> > language, have
> > some targetting sense to and be able to use it, be able to pilot itself, have
> > knowledge of the
> > area being attacked and have weapon familiarity and skill levels in its
> > warhead. If the computer
> > has an ego or not may also come into play. I've found that the best way to
> > build such attacks is
> > either and automaton or vehicle with a computer rather then NRM. With the
> > automaton/vehicle you
> > also are freed from that maximum range rule also.
> >
>
> Agreed. However, the idea was to determine how hard it was to select a location for the
> weapon to strike, at a range, when blinded.
>
I understand. My example was to show how to build a weapon that could do be told where to
attack and then do it.
> For example, suppose I had Ego Attack. My GM rules that, if I cannot see the target, the
> Ego Attack must be targeted using the rules for firing blind used under Darkness,
> Invisibility, and Flash. I say, "Great! I have a 0 ECV to attack the villain who is in our
> base in Seattle, even though I am in Antarctica!"
>
> The GM, realizing what he has done, says, "Wait. Additionally, you have to tell me which
> hex, in relation to you, that you are firing at, just like in some forms of firing blind
> in 3rd Edition." The GM figures that this will put the player back a bit, and avoid the
> problem.
>
> The player then responds, "How do I do that? Do I declare that I am attacking a target
> 9,476 miles, 326 feet from me, twelve degrees west of true north? How do you know if that
> is on target?"
>
> Now, does the GM get out large maps and various navigational aids and determine the exact
> figures(probably impossible), or does he create a mechanism for saying, "OK, make a PER
> roll at -5, modified by range, with an AK roll also modified by range as a Complimentary
> roll"? If he does the second, what should the mechanism be? The above would work, but is
> it the best solution?
>
> Filksinger
Here is one of those things where the GM has to shoot from the hip. Examples can be made to
knock down just about any rule of thumb you come up with. It where the GM has to weigh each
situation individually and maybe even a few wild ass guesses and come up with something, then
hope that the same situation doesn't come up again where they have to make the opposite
situation.
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Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 20:16:42 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
To: filkhero@usa.net
CC: Hero List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Incompetent Players
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Filksinger wrote:
> > From: aregalad@miami.edu
> >
> > No need to punish the character for the players actions. :]
> > (Unless the player is REALLY incompetent).
> >
>
> Years ago I was in a game where one of the players was so incompetent, that in six games
> (short campaign) he was the only one whose character died.
>
> And he died five times.
>
> Filksinger
What were you playing? For Call of Cthulhu that's about average, but for any HSR I would
have thought that level of in competance impossible for a sentient being,
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Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 20:48:12 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
CC: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll: Line of Sight
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Bob Greenwade wrote:
> At 09:00 PM 6/3/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote:
> >Bob Greenwade wrote:
> <snip>
> Absolutely! This type of video monitor system -- the basic type, which
> is what was originally under discussion -- does not represent a Targeting
> Sense. The rifle cannot be targeted this way; thus, neither can Mental
> Powers, and for the same reasons.
>
Please explain why I can't take this shot? To extend you little scenerio lets say
the target is about 8 feet behind the fourth shrub in my front yard. Since each
shrubs is about 3 feet apart and the first on is one foot to the left of the front
door. That would put the target at 13 feet to the left of the front door. All of
this information is easily abotainable from area knowledge of my apartmant and a
video camera view of my front yard. Even if I'm off by as much as +/- 3 feet I
still have the hex the target is in which may be sufficient to fire the gun and is
definitely sufficient for mental powers.
> >> As to the Radar and Sonar, these are not Clairvoyance systems. These
> >> are Radar and Sonar systems, for the base or vehicle being operated. A
> >> gunner from the base or vehicle could easily use these systems for
> >> targeting purposes. This does become a Targeting Sense in the Hero sense
> >> of the word.
> >
> >Then what about an AWACS systems targetting missiles fired from a base in
> Rihad,
> >Suadi Arabia. Are you saying that the plane and the base are part of the
> same
> >system? One other question, where does it say in the Clairsentience rules
> that it
> >cannot be used for Radar or Sonar?
> >
> >> On the other hand, if someone a distance away from the base or vehicle
> >> were to "tap in" to the signal and see what the radar or sonar system were
> >> showing those inside the base or vehicle, he couldn't use that for simple
> >> targeting; triangulation and other math would be required. This becomes a
> >> non-Targeting Sense for purposes of Hero mechanics.
> >
> >So how did the AWACS target and fire missiles in Rihad during the gulf war?
>
> With the aforementioned triangulation (and please note that I'm using
> that term rather broadly). It was possibly done by hand, and possibly done
> by computer; not being a military man (4-F), I wouldn't know. But I simply
> cannot imagine that the AWACS were simply able to look at the radar screen
> from a remote location with no other point of reference and fire weapons
> from their own location with no electronic tie-in whatsoever with the radar
> system.
>
Wrong again. The AWACS locates the target, calls the missile sytem operators and
gives them the coordinate. Then then fire the missile at the given coordinate.
Depending on the type of the missile, the AWACS may even be able to give
additional guidence information to the missile while it is in flight to guarentee
that it hits the target. The wezpon being fired could be anything from an
artillary shell to a dumb missle to a cruise missle to an ICBM. The simple fact
is the vehicle doing the targetting and the weapon doing the attacking are not
part of the same system by any means. Another question is how is artillary worked
when a forward observer is givin the coordinates to be fired at. He's not the one
firing the weapon but he is the one targetting the weapona and making the
corrections for missing the target.
> >> I'm also increasingly of a suspicion that the HUD, as you've now
> >> described it, is actually a Normal Sight system for a vehicle rather than a
> >> Clairvoyance system (which would generally require that the point of
> >> perspective be independent of the person viewing it).
> >
> >The A-10 has no vision system. The pilots had to use the missiles vision
> sytem to
> >fly and target by. If the HUD is a vision system for a vehicle then is it a
> >vision system for a Colt .45 when mounted on one?
>
> No, it's simply Skill Levels. A Colt .45 is not its own entity in the
> Hero System. It has no Characteristics. A Vehicle has Characteristics,
> and so it can have its own sensory systems. (And BTW a guided missile,
> whether guided by a computer or by a human controller, and be written up as
> a Vehicle.)
That's exactly what I said it was, skill levels. A HUD is like a LASER sight it
givesthe shooter better targetting information. It is not a vision system nor is
it a targetting system, it is simply skill levels. The vision system is the IR
cameras on the maverick missiles which send a live video feed to the onboard
monitor whcih the pilot uses for targetting the missile and flying the plane at
night. Once again we have a live camera feed used to target a weapon.
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Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 20:59:08 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
To: flashbak@pacbell.net
CC: Fuzion Mailing List <fuzion@dour.org&> Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: A really bizarre concept.
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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Darrin Kelley wrote:
> I just finished reading a pretty interesting couple of books. Yes,
> they are gimmicks, but they seem to deserve honorable mention. Both
> books are connected, and listed in order.
>
> Star Trek The Next Generation / X-Men: Second Contact
>
> This is the Marvel Comics special one shot comic book. The plot is
> sort of weak, but it provides a good piece of history for the second
> book I illustrate below. It is worth getting just based on that.
>
> Star Trek The Next Generation / X-Men: Planet X
>
> This is a full blown paperback novel by Michael Jan Friedman. I
> bought it more as a curiousity piece than out of any form of
> seriousness. Well, I just finished reading it. It was great! An
> incredible book. I honestly loved it. It had a very good storyline. And
> was was well worth my money.
>
> Now comes the hook into the topics of the lists I am sending this
> to:
>
> I know that several people have done actual superhero games based in
> the Star Trek background. Several people from these lists. But I have
> not heard anyone tryong to do the type of crossover that was done in the
> books I have spotlighted above. Star Trek is a pure science fiction
> environment. X-Men are pure superhero. If any game systems could pull
> such a similar thing off, it should be The Hero System and Fuzion.
>
> My challenge to the lists are for people to come up similar
> crossover ideas that could be used as a basis for adventures. And
> suggestions on how to make the two completely different elements
> actually work together effectively.
I tried this about 18 months ago: high powered mentalist on the run from
PsyCorps in the Babylon 5 universe. The PC's could have any powers they
wanted (with psy special effect encouraged) since they were genetic
experiments gone awry (the origanal idea came from the Ironheart episode).
I got only three people interested and couldn't get them together at the
same time to play. So the campaign died an inglorious death
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Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 22:01:40 -0400
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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At 08:23 AM 6/4/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 02:24 PM 6/4/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>>Skill levels in Flight? Have I forgotten a rule about using skill levels
>>to make your Turn Mode sharper than it would normally be?
>
> Apparently so (HSR, page 143, last paragraph, last sentence).
Unfortuneately, it does not list the cost of these skill levels.
Joe
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Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 22:03:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Weapons Hands Questions
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, Len Carpenter wrote:
> Since this debate is proving so much fun, let me add a few more
> ingredients to the stew.
>
> A roguish female character in a Fantasy Hero campaign wields a
> typical long sword. By that, I mean a sword with a straight blade 3
> feet long, weighs 3 pounds, and has a handgrip only long enough to
> accommodate one hand comfortably, say five inches. The GM treats
> this as a "broad sword" from the official weapons table, so it's a
> one-handed weapon with a 13 STR Min, does 1d6+1 damage, and has a +1
> OCV (these are not the values I personally would assign to her long
> sword, but no matter).
I don't see why not, since what you have described is the typical cut and
thrust 'broad' sword of the middle ages.
> The STR Min is convenient, since she has a 13
> STR. She's a two-fisted fighter--she commonly wields a dagger in her
> left hand.
Okay so far.
> The rogue is confronted by a brawny knight in full plate armor,
> swinging a two-handed great sword. Fearing she is overmatched, she
> throws her dagger at the knight hurriedly and awkwardly to distract
> him for a second--the dagger bounces harmlessly off his breast
> plate--and grips her sword with both hands, overlapping her left hand
> over her right. It's not a comfortable grip, but she's not worried
> about comfort at the moment. She believes she is trading a
> questionable defensive edge ("Try to parry a great sword with a
> dagger? What am I, stupid?") for other advantages.
Hmm... okay.
> She does this, reasoning that by holding the blade so, her two arms
> together will grant greater impetus to her blows, which she will need
> if she's to have a prayer of wounding the heavily armored knight.
> She further reasons that the firmer grip will give her greater
> strength should she attempt a Weapon Bind or Disarm maneuver (she
> knows her foe is much stronger than she, and is an expert swordsman,
> so she figures she'll attempt either maneuver only if she sees the
> knight's strength flagging, say by his being wounded in one arm.)
> She also does this to lessen her chance of being Disarmed by the
> heavier blade. Her player knows that the GM uses the two-handed
> Disarming rule on page 74 of Ninja Hero, which states that a
> character holding a weapon in both hands gets an extra +5 STR for
> holding on.
Okay, this makes sense.
> How to handle this event? The GM might rule by fiat: "No that's a
> one-handed weapon, not a one-and-a-half handed sword. Since your
> long sword doesn't have the -1/4 Limitation: One-and-a-Half Handed,
> you cannot gain those advantages you want for your overlapping,
> two-handed grip. If you want those advantages, you should have taken
> the Limitation."
No, I'd try to go with the flow and run with the PC being heroic/creative.
One can sorta grip a broadsword with two hands, especially if it is a
later period sword. The problem is that it's not a very comfortable way
to hold the weapon, and you end up cupping the pommel in your off hand.
I'd say that the lady rogue gets a +3 bonus to holding the weapons
(instead of a full +5 STR). She might also be ablew to get a simlar bonus
to the STR min to have a chance of doing lsightly more damage (the problem
is that your grip isn't going to give the the leverage you need. You have
a tighter grip on the weapon, but the hilt isn't long enough to allow one
to take advantage of using it two handed).
> I can see this question arising for many one-handed weapons. A
> baseball bat can be easily swung as a one-handed weapon by any
> average man, but it's a more effective club if swung with two. A
> bastard sword is essentially a long sword with a handgrip a few
> inches longer, so it can be held more comfortably with both hands,
> though the lower hand may overlap the pommel for a handgrip only
> seven inches long (as opposed to a twelve-inch grip for a true
> two-handed sword).
Uh... bastard swords look to thave gips up two 12" long. I've seen great
swords with up to 18" of grip. Certain German zwiehanders even had
portions of the blade blunted and wrapped in leather to further increase
the gripable area.
> Say the rogue accepts the GM's ruling, goes back to the normal
> one-hand grip, but survives the fight anyway. The adventure over,
> she seeks out a skilled swordsmith renowned for the quality of his
> work, and has the sword modified to a seven-inch grip, making it a
> true hand-and-a-half sword. The swordsmith knows what he's doing, so
> the blade's construction is weakened in no way by adding a longer
> tang and handgrip. She's also pleased with the minor improvement in
> its balance, the lengthening of the grip and lowering of the pommel
> acting to shift the sword's center-of-gravity slightly closer to the
> crossguard. Now this better balance is just a bit of color for the
> campaign--the sword has the same OCV, the same damage potential, the
> same STR Min. It's pretty much the same sword, just with a two-inch
> longer grip.
>
> Assume this is a campaign where weapons must be purchased with
> character points. The blade is somewhat more costly than is typical
> in terms of active points, with a minor illumination spell imbued
> within it. With the blade's new One-and-a-Half Handed Limitation,
> the real cost is reduced by a full point. The player asks that the
> point saved be given back to her so she can spend it on one her
> skills. Should the GM comply?
This is why I don't like the 'x-handed' limitation. It doesn't make a
whole lot of sense.
> I would rather the whole issue of hand-and-a-half not be treated as a
> Limitation applied to certain weapons. It is simply a feature of
> many one-handed weapons--swords, axes, clubs, and so on. You can
> hold a dagger in both hands if you want, perhaps to make sure you
> don't lose your grip. Her sword's new, longer handgrip is just a
> colorful campaign detail, of no greater importance than the shape of
> the fuller cut along the blade's length or the decorative enameling
> on crossguard and pommel. The rogue's investment in modifying her
> blade is just an interesting way of spending her money and down-time,
> not an issue of game mechanics.
This is the best way to go. Don't worry about the handed lim unless it is
really important to the weapon.
> Getting back to the fight example, if the GM permits her tactic, what
> changes for her?
See above. I made comments about how to handle this.
> Thinking over all this two-handed grip business, I like the
> consistency of a +5 STR change for MA maneuvers and a -5 for STR Min.
> Easy to remember. And I want that rogue to gain a damage bonus with
> her sword. She'll likely need it.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
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Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 22:07:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapons Hands Questions
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On 4 Jun 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> Len Carpenter writes:
>
> > A roguish female character in a Fantasy Hero campaign wields a
> > typical long sword. By that, I mean a sword with a straight blade 3
> > feet long, weighs 3 pounds, and has a handgrip only long enough to
> > accommodate one hand comfortably, say five inches. The GM treats
> > this as a "broad sword" from the official weapons table,
>
> This is a mistake; it is not a broadsword. The (nonexistant outside of
> D&D) broadsword has a much larger hilt and a wider blade -- think Conan's
> sword. This is a long sword.
Uh... what? Rat, this makes no sense. The term s 'broadsword' is
commonly applied to a wide variety of weapons, specifically Norse swords
of the 8th to 10th C and Scottish basket-hilted swords of c. 1500-1650.
I've never seen the term 'longsword' outside of an AD&D book. My
reference books use terms like broadsword and cut and thrust sword.
> Regardless, special effects say that it is a 1-handed weapon; it cannot be
> wielded effectively with two hands. The extra hand adds no leverage, and
> hinders the free movement of the other arm, especially the wrist, which is
> the source of much of the impetus behind a one-handed blade.
Not it's not. The wrist is great for fencers, but a broadsword fighter
gets a *lot* of his impetus from his hips. At least if he does it right.
> At this point I have to ask, if she knows the guy is stronger and better,
> why is she standing there waiting to be chopped up into kibble?
Maybe she doesn't have a choice?
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
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Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 22:14:14 -0400
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: RE: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
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At 12:42 AM 6/4/98 -0700, Filksinger wrote:
>> The
>> *POWER* has No Range Modifier, not the person using it.
Although I'm very bored by this discussion, please call it No Range
Penalty. That is what you are discussing, right? Every time I see NRM I
have to remember what you all are talking about.
Second, I have to disagree with Filksinger (and most others). You are 0
OCV against a target at range if you cannot make a targetted PER roll
against the target. If the special effect was sufficient to allow the NRP
advantage on the power then the power will hit if the attacker makes a 0
OCV attack against the target. That is how the game mechanic works. You
are arguing against the game mechanic. If you don't like it, don't allow
NRP on the power in question.
>{This is Rat, I think- jm]
>> Again, this has nothing to do with NRM. Ditto for the rest of your
>> "points"; they are all issues of detecting the target, not using the
>> power.
>
>OK, fine. Now, my original post asked how you would model those "issues".
You have made it
>clear that you wouldn't model them by tampering in any way with NRM, but
you haven't
>answered the original question - how should they be modeled?
No, there are no issues. The special effect of power made NRP make sense.
This implies that it will work. If you are saying that this circumstance
is not covered by the special effect, but NRP still makes sense, put a
limitation on the advantage: Must make PER roll against target. (-1/2)
Joe
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Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 22:31:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
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On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, Bryant Berggren wrote:
> At 11:57 AM 6/4/98 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> >Yes, it does take some strength to use a halberd effectively two-handed.
> >But one can be 10 STR and still use the weapon (we created a ruling about
> >STR less than the STR Min reducing weapon damage). But, I seriously doubt
> >a human-sized individual, no matter *how* strong, being able to
> >effectively use a halberd with one hand.
>
> It's hard for me not to think that this doubt is primarily rooted in the
> fact that it's hard to find test subjects with 21+ STR to attempt such usage
> in the first place. :]
Yes, and the fact that the damn thing is over 7' long most of the time.
> >Try swinging a 5' broom around with one hand, you'll see where the trouble
> >arises. It's unbalanced and clumsy.
>
> I've tried it ... it is a little clumsy, but I'd just as easily attribute
> that to my own weak arm and the inherent -3 OCV from me being an untrained
> combatant. Specifically, it feels LESS unbalanced and clumsy to me than the
> one-handed (museum replica) broadswords a friend of mine owns -- given six
> months to train, I think I'd handle the broomstick BETTER.
Funny. My Spanish broadsword feels pretty balanced. I'd just need some
time to train with it. I've also picked up some sweetly balanced replica
swords that I could whip around like they were nothing.
Of course, my broadsword has a grip that's a touch to long, making me want
to swing it two-handed. ^_^
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
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Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: A really bizarre concept.
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 12:54:07 +1000
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> Darrin Kelley wrote:
>
> > My challenge to the lists are for people to come up similar
> > crossover ideas that could be used as a basis for adventures. And
> > suggestions on how to make the two completely different elements
> > actually work together effectively.
>
>
Well, i'm currently working on a page based around a bunch of
interdimensional mercenaries. Some of the more interesing concepts are
priests that worships a warp generator (which still partially works and
looks just like one of the nacell's off enterprise. . .um. . d.. i think. .
), and a group of smurfs taking over a space station al la 'diehard'. . .
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Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 22:07:10 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Steve Long's Original Mental Combat Maneuvers
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> >O.K, I know it's been a while, but I was just able to scare up
> >file with Long's Mental Combat Maneuvers. Without further ado:
>
> Thanks for finding and posting these, Tim. I don't currently have a
> full-fledged mentalist in my group (Rattler hardly counts), but if I do I'm
> going to want to have these available.
I actually wrote this up a month or two ago, but did it through my
Netscape Mail instead of my normal Unix shell with Pine. Since I've
switched connections, I've been using a second e-mail account, and when I
set it up I ended up (finally) sending this. I was trying to figure out
why it appeared here so long after I posted it. Slip on my part.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 03:09:57
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
<snip>
>
> Using a shield is worth a +1 to +3 DCV bonus, depending on the size of the
> shield.
Agreed.
> Historically, soldiers and such armed with one-handed weapons carry shields
> in their other hands. In fiction, it is rare for anyone other than a major
> hero or villain to do so. This is the baseline that Hero is working from.
Agreed.
> Compared with that baseline, being unable to use a shield because both of
> your hands are occupied is a disadvantage.
Agreed.
> Being completely unable to use a shield because of the weapon is a -1/2
> limitation, according to Hero. That is *ALL* the "two-handed weapon"
> limitation means.
Agreed.
> Being unable to use a shield some of the time is a greater than -0
> limitation, but less than -1/2: -1/4. That is *ALL* the "hand-and-a-half
> weapon" limitation means.
At any time you can _choose_ to not be Limited in this fashion, simply
by using the weapon one-handed. If you do this, the weapon
becomes identical to the baseline, which is a one-handed weapon.
Therefore, since you can _choose_ to make it identical to a
one-handed weapon at all times, no exception, then at any time you
can refuse to accept the "Limitation". A Limitation you can ignore at
will is not a Limitation, and is worth nothing.
Filksinger
____________________________________________________________________
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1
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From: "Sean Pavlish" <pavlish@erols.com>
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Incompetent Players
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 23:22:02 -0400
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> From: aregalad@miami.edu
>
> No need to punish the character for the players actions. :]
> (Unless the player is REALLY incompetent).
>
>
> Years ago I was in a game where one of the players was so incompetent, that in
six > games
> (short campaign) he was the only one whose character died.
>
> And he died five times.
>
> Filksinger
Well, In several games that I got involved with, we had a guy who always built
up the super powerful martial artist who was supposed to out do everyone else.
And in never stopped amazing me how every combat session ran the exact same.
begining of combat
incompotent player: Delayed at first, then kicked, then usually got vital shot
and was out for the entire rest of the combat. It was a running joke in our
games....
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Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 20:45:44 -0700
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com>
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com
Organization: None
To: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics?
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David Stallard wrote:
> Message text written by Bob Greenwade
> > Losing track of his environment is just SFX. What happened in game
> terms (IMO) was that his levels were in OCV instead of Flight -- something
> that can be done fairly typically when one is making Half Moves and then
> trying to draw a bead on the target -- and so he couldn't adjust his Turn
> Mode in the narrow hallway, and ended up going splat against the wall.
> (I've actually had a PC of my own do that in a game, too!)<
>
> Skill levels in Flight? Have I forgotten a rule about using skill levels
> to make your Turn Mode sharper than it would normally be?
>
> I had a villain who *almost* went splat against the side of a
> building....he decelerated and turned as quick as he could, and ended up
> flying parallel to the wall in the adjacent hex...whew! I don't think I've
> ever had an actual "splat" episode though.
I splated once. (Sheepish grin) I had a "Captain Marvel" kinda fellow,
actually he was more like a Green Lantern who did nothing more with his ring
than fly and enhance his abilities to super human levels; anyway, Purple Haze
thought he was invulnerable to everything and tried outlandish combat ideas. In
this instance he attempted a 50" Pushed non-combat move through on a ninja
agent. I failed to "suprise" the ninja, I was createing a lot of noise and oh
yea, I glowed bright purple. He threw me to the ground and I made a big hole.
He was stunned, unconscious, losing body and had hallucinations of his mother
coming back from the dead to tell me how stupid he was......It was pretty
funny.
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Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 21:09:48 -0700
Subject: Re: Gadget Belts
From: "Albert Deschesne" <Psihawk@pacbell.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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> As for putting OIF on the Pool and OAF on each slot, I would indeed
>recommend this. The OAF means that each item can be taken away during
>combat while it's in use; the OIF means that, out of combat, the entire
>belt can be removed at once, depriving the character of all of the stuff on
>it.
> That's a sketch of my thoughts on the topic. No
The problem I have with this is, is say you have a 30 pt MP for your gadget
belt and I take away your 30 pt change environment flashlight, can you still
use the rest of you pool since I now have 30 pts. of your power?
Albert Deschesne
Gamemaster of the Metaverse
http://members.aol.com/Adeschesne
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Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 23:24:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
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To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
cc: hero-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Bab 5 Hero: Races; Non-aligned worlds
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> At 07:08 PM 6/1/1998 -0500, Tim Statler wrote:
> >The Pak have a very strong odor but not that bad. Remember, Pak do sit
> >in council. I'm debating the Discrim yet. (If anyone else is reading
> >this I could use another opinion.)
>
> A person is normally immune to one's own odor; that's how people who
> develop incredible body odors, either as an affliction or due to poor
> hygiene, can stand to be around themselves. Thus, the Pak could be immune
> to the unpleasantness of their own odors (at no point cost).
The main thing I remember about the Pak is that they were supposed to have
a very strong sense of honor. And it came out in the fifth season they
could not eat certain things. I think Bob has a good point here.
> After seven years, if I recall correctly (which would put the next
> conflict somewhere between the end of the B5 cycle and the beginning of the
> Crusade cycle).
> And on the top of the Drazi, I'm starting to suspect that they don't
> have personal names. Ever hear one addressed or referred to by name? The
> Drazi ambassador is just "The Drazi Ambassador." I don't know that this
> would be reflected in Hero terms, but it's an interesting point.
I'm not sure of this. I don't remember any Brakiri being named either.
They could be addressed by title though, or function. I know part of what
made Japanese history confusing at times was that people would be
addressed by title rather than personal or family name in accounts of the
period and when that title changed, they would be addressed by the new
title.
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Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 00:24:19 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
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> I'm for the suggestion someone had (I think it was Tim) of making
> hand-and-a-half the default mode, and letting "One-handed" and Two-Handed"
> -1/4 Limitations.
Not I. I suggested allowing one-handed weapons to be used two
handed as well with a -4 or 5 to the STR min compared to the -2 of the 1.5
handers. This of course would have to be mixed with a "cannot be used
two-handed" lim for really small weapons, daggers come to mind, for, say,
a -1/4.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 00:27:49 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Killing vs Normal
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> On the face of it, I wouldn't like this idea; but considering you've
Well, like I said, I thought this was the *only* way for quite a
while.
> playtested it extensively (by virtue of having thought for a long time that
> this was how it was already supposed to be done), I do like it, though the
> reason you give above is the only real reason for me to like it. (I guess
Which reason? Reduced reliance on KAs for high stun possibility?
> I'd have to playtest it for myself, probably in a fantasy setting where
> Killing and Normal attacks would, by genre, exist side-by-side at about
> 50/50 proportions.)
I used this in a 4-color champs campaign. One benefit is that
Bricks with really high resitent def actually have a reason to buy more
resestent def than, say, 24. (That's max BOD on a 4d6 KA). It also makes
building a character that can literally bounce bullets much easier. (That
2d6 KA will max out at 60 STUN, 30 PD, 30 rPD bounces it.)
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@early.com>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapons Hands Questions
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 01:36:44 -0400
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(material snipped)
On June 4th, Michael Surbrook replied:
> No, I'd try to go with the flow and run with the PC being
heroic/creative.
> One can sorta grip a broadsword with two hands, especially if it is a
> later period sword. The problem is that it's not a very comfortable way
> to hold the weapon, and you end up cupping the pommel in your off hand.
> I'd say that the lady rogue gets a +3 bonus to holding the weapons
> (instead of a full +5 STR). She might also be ablew to get a simlar
bonus
> to the STR min to have a chance of doing lsightly more damage (the
problem
> is that your grip isn't going to give the the leverage you need. You
have
> a tighter grip on the weapon, but the hilt isn't long enough to allow one
> to take advantage of using it two handed).
I'm a generous guy, so I would grant her the +5 STR bonus and a +1 DC
bonus, but only for the duration of a short melee. With time, the awkward
grip would become very uncomfortable and would progressively weaken. It's
a tactic that would grant measurable benefits for a couple of game turns,
but not throughout a lengthy battle.
>> I can see this question arising for many one-handed weapons. A
>> baseball bat can be easily swung as a one-handed weapon by any
>> average man, but it's a more effective club if swung with two. A
>> bastard sword is essentially a long sword with a handgrip a few
>> inches longer, so it can be held more comfortably with both hands,
>> though the lower hand may overlap the pommel for a handgrip only
>> seven inches long (as opposed to a twelve-inch grip for a true
>> two-handed sword).
> Uh... bastard swords look to thave gips up two 12" long. I've seen great
> swords with up to 18" of grip. Certain German zwiehanders even had
> portions of the blade blunted and wrapped in leather to further increase
> the gripable area.
One description of swords with a seven-inch grip comes from Ewart
Oakeshott's A Knight and His Weapons. These "hand-and-a-half" swords came
into popularity in the latter half of the 14th Century. Such a "long
sword" (Oakeshott uses that very phrase, and I doubt he ever played D&D)
became truly distinct after about 1420 from the short sword or "arming
sword." Often on horseback, the knight would wear his arming sword at his
belt, with his long sword fastened to the front of his saddle. This
horseman's weapon was also called a "war sword," shorter than the true
two-hander with a twelve-inch grip and about fifty inches length in the
blade. Oakeshott goes into much greater detail on sword construction and
form in his book The Archeology of Weapons.
I have seen great blades with even longer grips in other sources, including
the impressive zwiehander you mention. That blades of similar type can be
called by different names by various medieval sources and modern collectors
shows the morass that the nomenclature of weapons truly is. Too few names
for different sword types have specific, universally agreed upon
definitions.
(more stuff snipped)
Len Carpenter
redlion@early.com
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Incompetent Players
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 22:38:48 -0700
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From: Ross Rannells
>
>
> <snip>
>
> What were you playing? For Call of Cthulhu that's about average, but for any
> HSR I would
> have thought that level of in competance impossible for a sentient being,
>
We were mercenaries, used supposedly for "plausible deniability" in a mission to Central
America, but in fact set up to fail by the people who sent us. When we survived and
learned too much, these same people put us on everyone's "Terminate with Extreme
Prejudice" list.
Besides, I'm not certain that he _was_ sentient.
Filksinger
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From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@early.com>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapons Hands Questions
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 01:47:26 -0400
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> On 4 Jun 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
>> Len Carpenter writes:
>>
>>> A roguish female character in a Fantasy Hero campaign wields a
>>> typical long sword. By that, I mean a sword with a straight blade 3
>>> feet long, weighs 3 pounds, and has a handgrip only long enough to
>>> accommodate one hand comfortably, say five inches. The GM treats
>>> this as a "broad sword" from the official weapons table,
>>
>> This is a mistake; it is not a broadsword. The (nonexistant outside of
>> D&D) broadsword has a much larger hilt and a wider blade -- think
Conan's
>> sword. This is a long sword.
Michael Surbrook responded:
> Uh... what? Rat, this makes no sense. The term s 'broadsword' is
> commonly applied to a wide variety of weapons, specifically Norse swords
> of the 8th to 10th C and Scottish basket-hilted swords of c. 1500-1650.
> I've never seen the term 'longsword' outside of an AD&D book. My
> reference books use terms like broadsword and cut and thrust sword.
The term "long sword" or "long swerd" I have seen outside of D&D, in the
writings of Ewart Oakeshott, Alfred Hutton, and the venerable Sir Richard
F. Burton. Gygax didn't simply make it up. Unfortunately, it's a term
mixed up with others like bastard sword, hand-and-a-half sword,
cut-and-thrust sword, and war sword, so specificity cannot be had. You can
call it the kind of war sword Conan would favor, or a lighter one-handed
sword, and defend your use of the name by citing one book or another.
Perhaps not the best choice of a term, on my part. Maybe I should have
gotten really specific and called the rogue's sword a spadroon. . . . Nah.
Even that term's precise meaning can be argued over.
>> Regardless, special effects say that it is a 1-handed weapon; it cannot
be
>> wielded effectively with two hands. The extra hand adds no leverage,
and
>> hinders the free movement of the other arm, especially the wrist, which
is
>> the source of much of the impetus behind a one-handed blade.
>
> Not it's not. The wrist is great for fencers, but a broadsword fighter
> gets a *lot* of his impetus from his hips. At least if he does it right.
>
>> At this point I have to ask, if she knows the guy is stronger and
better,
>> why is she standing there waiting to be chopped up into kibble?
>
> Maybe she doesn't have a choice?
Or maybe she just doesn't like to run from a fight--kind of like many of
the contributors to this mailing list.
Len Carpenter
redlion@early.com
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Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 02:02:58 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
To: Champions Listserv <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Cinematic Hero?
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Has anyone run a campaign or at least a few sessions based on the
campaign guidelines for a cinematic campaign in Hero System Alminac 2?
I've been considering starting one up, and would like a few ideas, hints,
warnings, etc.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
To: "Stainless Steel Rat" <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net&>
"Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Clinging Question (was Re: Clinging/Climbing)
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 02:50:21 -0500
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Waitaminnit. I think what's being described here is as follows. The
Clingster is walking up the side of the Blaxter Building when Galagula the
Galactic Giant appears behind him and attempts to pluck the Clingful
Clinguist off the side of the building. Galagula has a STR of 150, more
than sufficient to overcome the Clingster's mere Clinging STR of 150.
However, since the Blaxter Building is mere steel-and-concrete, and the
Clingster is pushing to his utmost to resist Galagula, won't a chunk of the
building come with him when the World-Devouring Wonder plucks the Capable
Crusader from the Building That Gets Demolished Every Other Issue?
Guy
PS A side-note: Could a guy with Clinging attempt to reach out and grap a
fleeing felon, using his Clinging STR to pull his opponent back?
----------
> From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
> To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
> Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing
> Date: Friday, June 05, 1998 7:47 PM
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Tim R Gilberg writes:
>
> >> Sorry, no, Clinging by itself cannot do damage, period. This might be
a
> >> wonky Side Effect kind of thing, but it is not Clinging.
>
> > Says who?
>
> Says the fact that Clinging does not do damage. You want that, buy an
> Energy Blast or Killing attack.
>
> > Minor (and only minor) damage to things being clung to when
> > knocked away from those clung to things is perfectly acceptible as a
SFX.
> > What is so wrong about it?
>
> The same thing that is wrong with a Transformation Attack: living bodies
to
> corpses. It might be a valid effect, but that is not the power.
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.3a
> Charset: noconv
>
> iQCVAwUBNXiRf56VRH7BJMxHAQHTxQP/Yw7qoFboMVkkp2si6wy+axLbSXZLVC2p
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> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> --
> Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly,
and
> PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid
prolonged
> \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball.
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Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 02:27:26 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: Hero List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Incompetent Players
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Filksinger wrote:
>
> Years ago I was in a game where one of the players was so incompetent, that in six games
> (short campaign) he was the only one whose character died.
>
> And he died five times.
>
> Filksinger
Hmmm...reminds me of a game of D&D many moons ago, where our MU,
T'Challa, was killed four times and turned to stone once in the course of
a single expedition.
In one campaign that I played in, a player had built a character, named
Predator, who was built around some Armor with Life Support and fearsome
Multi-gun. Unfortunately for him, he bought all of his armor as
OIF Fragile. Once, he was caught in a moderate Area Effect attack, which
destroyed his armor. He then elected to stay and fight, rather than flee
for cover. Given his Reputation, the enemy converged fire on him -- many
RKAs, and no resistant defense. Farewell, Predator!
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
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Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 06:47:20 -0400
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Cc: "C.C.007" <cc007@hotmail.com&> "J.M. Coffey" <jmcoffey@erols.com&>
Sandy Johnston <pegasus@magnolia.net&>
Hero Games List <hero-request@omg.org&>
Nikki <Nikki_Varney@profound.com&> Denny Pine <denpine@hotmail.com&>
Jeff Reid <76742.3543@compuserve.com&> Bill Ung <ung@filenet.com>
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"Yes it is!"
"No, it isn't!"
"Yes it is!"
"No, it isn't!"
Oh, I give up...
Jeff Reid
Morfhis@compuserve.com
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm
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Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 06:47:28 -0400
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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> Hey, as far as I'm concerned, if the attacker can "see" (i.e. perceive
with
> a targeting sense) a man-sized target at 10 miles (a big "if,"
considering
> that the Range mods for the PER Roll is in the neighborhood of -2000!)
Ooops. I meant -20! I guess my finger twitched on the zero there. My fault
for not proofreading before hitting the SEND button!
Jeff Reid
Morfhis@compuserve.com
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm
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Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 05:34:15 -0700
To: hero-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Base Extras
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At 08:50 PM 6/4/1998 EDT, JJP3337@aol.com wrote:
>I am looking for a way to simulate base extras like extreme weather clothes
>ect. that my groups superteam members not so gifted as to have safe environs
>can use. Attaching them to the base seemed to be a good wasy of evenly
>distibuting the points but I'm stuck as to how to sumulate it. A lot of
>independent or oif safe environs for specific suits would get to cumbersome
>and simplifying it to say one suit does it seems a little to unrealistic. any
>ideas out there.
Are you using the "+5 points per x2" Multiple Instances modifier, which
is allowed for bases and vehicles? That can be a lot cheaper than buying
each individual outfit separately.
The impression I get, actually, is that you're using that modifier but
still find the outlay too much. In this case, I'd suggest buying the
outfits in a Multipower (since any given character can only wear one at a
time), with the Focus Limitation on the individual slots only and the
Multiple Instances on the pool. Each instance becomes more-or-less a
Personal Focus (sized to fit a specific character), and any leftovers are
"spares" in various sizes for use by guests ("Guest Star" heroes, DNPCs,
and the like).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 05:38:31 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics?
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At 10:01 PM 6/4/1998 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>At 08:23 AM 6/4/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>At 02:24 PM 6/4/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>>>Skill levels in Flight? Have I forgotten a rule about using skill levels
>>>to make your Turn Mode sharper than it would normally be?
>>
>> Apparently so (HSR, page 143, last paragraph, last sentence).
>
>Unfortuneately, it does not list the cost of these skill levels.
This is discussed (albeit not directly on this specific issue) on pages
22-23 and 38. Based on what's given there, Skill Levels with Flight only
would cost 3 points each; and, of course, broader Skill Levels (with
Multipower, with All Combat, or even Overall) would apply as well (which is
probably the reason no cost is given in the paragraph on page 143).
---
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Gadget Belts
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 05:42:18 -0700
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Albert Deschesne [Psihawk@pacbell.net] asks:
>say you have a 30 pt MP for your gadget belt and I take away
>your 30 pt change environment flashlight, can you still use
>the rest of you pool since I now have 30 pts. of your power?
For most flashlights, no. If it's a detachable pocket flashlight that
gets taken away, it's similar to have a one-charge weapon in a
multipower. Once that charge is gone, does that mean that the whole
multipower is useless? The base question is that if a slot is
inactive/unusuable for some reason, is the whole pool dead?
My answer is no, unless the -0 Lockout limitation was used (maybe that
deserves an actual limitation value, I don't know yet...).
If however, the flashlight was of the Spidey-variety so that it is built
into the belt, then yes, disabling or taking that flashlight might
disable the whole belt.
For another example, look at the cable gun. Common powers include
swinging, possibly flight and superleap, entangle, stretching, TK, maybe
RKA. If one of those powers is disabled, probably all of them are, and
the whole multipower would probably be OAF -- it's a single device with
multiple functions.
If the cable gun user wants to give his cable gun separate
functionalities, like two independent lines, and maybe a few backup
lines (like ammo clips), he could put an OIF on the MP and OAF on the
slots.
It's more of a player choice than a standard, to me. Two characters in
the same campaign could have two very different utility belts. One with
a VPP would almost always have the right gadget, one with an MP would
have a pre-set selection. One with an OAF MP would get the whole belt
taken away more often than one with an OIF MP.
In The Ultimate Gadgeteer, Bob and I will present suggestions and their
ramifications, but not standards. The design is always left open. There
is no single "right way" in Hero.
Dave Mattingly
http://www.haymaker.org
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Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 05:42:52 -0700
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Gadget Belts
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At 09:09 PM 6/4/1998 -0700, Albert Deschesne wrote:
>> As for putting OIF on the Pool and OAF on each slot, I would indeed
>>recommend this. The OAF means that each item can be taken away during
>>combat while it's in use; the OIF means that, out of combat, the entire
>>belt can be removed at once, depriving the character of all of the stuff on
>>it.
>> That's a sketch of my thoughts on the topic. No
>
> The problem I have with this is, is say you have a 30 pt MP for your gadget
>belt and I take away your 30 pt change environment flashlight, can you still
>use the rest of you pool since I now have 30 pts. of your power?
By SFX, yes; gamewise, the Disadvantage for each slot is simply "blown
up" from OIF to OAF, so using the "Accessible" part against the character
can only apply to the individual slot.
---
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Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 09:03:57 -0400
To: hero-l@sysabend.org
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Base Extras
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At 08:50 PM 6/4/98 -0400, JJP3337@aol.com wrote:
>I am looking for a way to simulate base extras like extreme weather clothes
>ect. that my groups superteam members not so gifted as to have safe environs
>can use. Attaching them to the base seemed to be a good wasy of evenly
>distibuting the points but I'm stuck as to how to sumulate it. A lot of
>independent or oif safe environs for specific suits would get to cumbersome
>and simplifying it to say one suit does it seems a little to unrealistic. any
>ideas out there.
>
If you want them to have thermal underwear, just give it to them.
Don't worry about the points.
====================== =================================================
Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
====================== =================================================
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Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 06:04:44 -0700
To: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll: Line of Sight
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At 08:48 PM 6/4/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote:
>Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>> At 09:00 PM 6/3/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote:
>> >Bob Greenwade wrote:
>> <snip>
>> Absolutely! This type of video monitor system -- the basic type, which
>> is what was originally under discussion -- does not represent a Targeting
>> Sense. The rifle cannot be targeted this way; thus, neither can Mental
>> Powers, and for the same reasons.
>
>Please explain why I can't take this shot? To extend you little scenerio
lets say
>the target is about 8 feet behind the fourth shrub in my front yard.
Since each
>shrubs is about 3 feet apart and the first on is one foot to the left of
the front
>door. That would put the target at 13 feet to the left of the front door.
All of
>this information is easily abotainable from area knowledge of my apartmant
and a
>video camera view of my front yard. Even if I'm off by as much as +/- 3
feet I
>still have the hex the target is in which may be sufficient to fire the
gun and is
>definitely sufficient for mental powers.
You *can* take the shot, but you *can't* target it visually. You can
only take the information you have, and *extrapolate* the location of your
target. You may be able to figure out logically and mathematically where
the target is, and even visualize the location in your mind, but you can't
actually Target it in the Hero sense of the word. For that, you'd need to
actually see it with your eyes, or have some sort of electronic aid.
Similarly, a mentalist also doesn't have a Line Of Sight. He can
extrapolate the location of his target who is on TV based on what he's told
and is able to see on the screen, and attempt to "fire blind" at the
location where he thinks the target is, but this is an entirely different
matter from being able to see the target directly.
The question isn't, "Is such an attack possible?" The question is, "Can
such an attack be made as easily as if there was a direct, uninterrupted
line from the attacker to the target?" In both cases, the answer to the
first is obviously yes; the attack *is* possible. Also in both cases, the
targeting is being done by logic and extrapolation; it's possible to hit
the target, but it's just not as easy nor as simple as using one's own
vision to target. Thus, in both cases, the answer to the second question
-- the one which determines whether Line of Sight with a Targeting Sense is
present -- is no.
>> With the aforementioned triangulation (and please note that I'm using
>> that term rather broadly). It was possibly done by hand, and possibly done
>> by computer; not being a military man (4-F), I wouldn't know. But I simply
>> cannot imagine that the AWACS were simply able to look at the radar screen
>> from a remote location with no other point of reference and fire weapons
>> from their own location with no electronic tie-in whatsoever with the radar
>> system.
>
>Wrong again. The AWACS locates the target, calls the missile sytem
operators and
>gives them the coordinate. Then then fire the missile at the given
coordinate.
>Depending on the type of the missile, the AWACS may even be able to give
>additional guidence information to the missile while it is in flight to
guarentee
>that it hits the target. The wezpon being fired could be anything from an
>artillary shell to a dumb missle to a cruise missle to an ICBM. The
simple fact
>is the vehicle doing the targetting and the weapon doing the attacking are
not
>part of the same system by any means. Another question is how is
artillary worked
>when a forward observer is givin the coordinates to be fired at. He's not
the one
>firing the weapon but he is the one targetting the weapona and making the
>corrections for missing the target.
You told me I'm wrong, and then described how I'm right. "The AWACS
locates the target, calls the missile system operators, and gives them the
coordinate[s]." If the operator was firing by Line of Sight using a
Targeting Sense, using coordinates would be unnecessary and possibly
meaningless; the operator would just point the missile at the target and
fire. As it stands here, the operator is firing blind at the hex (or, more
likely -- in game terms -- instructing the Computer to fire at the hex, or
a missile bought as a self-piloting Vehicle to go to the hex).
>That's exactly what I said it was, skill levels. A HUD is like a LASER
sight it
>givesthe shooter better targetting information. It is not a vision system
nor is
>it a targetting system, it is simply skill levels. The vision system is
the IR
>cameras on the maverick missiles which send a live video feed to the onboard
>monitor whcih the pilot uses for targetting the missile and flying the
plane at
>night. Once again we have a live camera feed used to target a weapon.
Would the live camera feed *alone* be enough to target the missiles? No
maps or coordinate entries; just look at what's on the screen, point, and
shoot your target with as much accuracy as if the operator were using just
his eyes?
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 09:40:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Handcuffs
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And another gadget question...
Here's my take on a pair of handcuffs. Anyone else have any thoughts?
(I don't have my book handy, so I can't enter limitation values)
Entangle
5 DEF/ 1 BODY (all you have to do is break the chain)
Transparent to attacks (+1/2)
Can only entangle two limbs (-?)
Must follow Grab (-1/2?)
No Range (-1/2) - unless your Armitage III
OAF (-1)
1 Recoverable Charge (-1 1/2?)
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* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
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Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 09:13:40 -0500
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net>
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
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Michael Surbrook wrote:
>
> Of course, my broadsword has a grip that's a touch to long, making me
> want to swing it two-handed. ^_^
Did you ask them for a -1/4 discount when you bought it?
Todd
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Handcuffs
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 07:23:31 -0700
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Mike Surbrook writes:
>Entangle 5 DEF/ 1 BODY (all you have to do is break the chain)
I would think that a metal chain would have more than one BODY,
actually.
Personally, I think I'd go for around a 4 DEF / 4 BODY Entangle. Doing
BODY to the Entangle is defined as "wiggling a little bit loose."
>Transparent to attacks (+1/2)
>Can only entangle two limbs (-?)
>Must follow Grab (-1/2?)
>No Range (-1/2) - unless your Armitage III
>OAF (-1)
>1 Recoverable Charge (-1 1/2?)
Extra time: full phase (-1/2)
Gestures to attach (-1/4)
Can be negated by successful Lockpicking skill modified by Active Points
of Entangle (-1/2)
--
So a 10 STR suspect could not escape with a lucky roll, unless he pushed
his STR.
A 15 STR suspect could escape, given enough time (10-15 minutes average
for 2 SPD).
A 20 STR suspect could escape much more quickly (I'm guessing 1-5
minutes, but don't feel like doing the math).
A 10 STR suspect with Contortionist at 11- will probably escape within 1
to 2 turns.
A 10 STR suspect with Contortionist at 8- will probably escape within a
minute.
If this is about the effectiveness level you're looking for, the 5 DEF /
1 BODY solution should be fine.
Dave Mattingly
http://www.haymaker.org
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Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:29:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
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On Fri, 5 Jun 1998, Todd Hanson wrote:
> Michael Surbrook wrote:
> >
> > Of course, my broadsword has a grip that's a touch to long, making me
> > want to swing it two-handed. ^_^
>
> Did you ask them for a -1/4 discount when you bought it?
>
I wouldn't dare. I didn't buy it you see, I won it in a tournaement.
***************************************************************************
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* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
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Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:30:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions News Group <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Gadget Belts ... ? about MP
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On Fri, 5 Jun 1998, David W. Salmon wrote:
> Just a small question here brought on by this discussion. If you apply OIF
> to the MP cost doesn't each slot also have to have the OIF limitation placed
> on it ... and if you do that then how can you also have an OAF limitation
> placed on each slot as well ?
My opinion is that if you but a -1/2 lim on the base MP, each slot has to
have that -1/2 lim *or* a simlar lim of even greater value. I only use
this concept when dealing wioth foci though.
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* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
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Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 09:43:45 -0700
Subject: Re: Gadget Belts
From: "Albert Deschesne" <Psihawk@pacbell.net>
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>From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
>To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
>Subject: RE: Gadget Belts
>Date: Fri, Jun 5, 1998, 5:42 AM
>
>For most flashlights, no. If it's a detachable pocket flashlight that
>gets taken away, it's similar to have a one-charge weapon in a
>multipower. Once that charge is gone, does that mean that the whole
>multipower is useless? The base question is that if a slot is
>inactive/unusuable for some reason, is the whole pool dead?
>
>My answer is no, unless the -0 Lockout limitation was used (maybe that
>deserves an actual limitation value, I don't know yet...).
>
>If however, the flashlight was of the Spidey-variety so that it is built
>into the belt, then yes, disabling or taking that flashlight might
>disable the whole belt.
So what you're saying is (by extrapolation) that I can hand my buddy my 30
pt. flashlight and give my other buddy my 30pt swingline and use my 30pt
clinging suction cups all at the same time from my 30 pt OIF utility belt?
Somehow this doesn't sound right...
Albert Deschesne
Gamemaster of Metaverse
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From: "David W. Salmon" <dwsalmon@earthlink.net>
To: "Champions News Group" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Gadget Belts ... ? about MP
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 09:47:03 -0700
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Just a small question here brought on by this discussion. If you apply OIF
to the MP cost doesn't each slot also have to have the OIF limitation placed
on it ... and if you do that then how can you also have an OAF limitation
placed on each slot as well ?
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Friday, June 05, 1998 6:14 AM
Subject: Re: Gadget Belts
>At 09:09 PM 6/4/1998 -0700, Albert Deschesne wrote:
>>> As for putting OIF on the Pool and OAF on each slot, I would indeed
>>>recommend this. The OAF means that each item can be taken away during
>>>combat while it's in use; the OIF means that, out of combat, the entire
>>>belt can be removed at once, depriving the character of all of the stuff
on
>>>it.
>>> That's a sketch of my thoughts on the topic. No
>>
>> The problem I have with this is, is say you have a 30 pt MP for your
gadget
>>belt and I take away your 30 pt change environment flashlight, can you
still
>>use the rest of you pool since I now have 30 pts. of your power?
>
> By SFX, yes; gamewise, the Disadvantage for each slot is simply "blown
>up" from OIF to OAF, so using the "Accessible" part against the character
>can only apply to the individual slot.
>---
>Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
>Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
>
>
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Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 13:52:28 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
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On 5 Jun 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> Look, this is really very, very simple.
It is, which is why I can't understand your uncharacteristic inability
to see the problem.
> You can do maximum damage. Or you can use a shield for the DCV bonus.
> But you cannot do both at the same time.
But just referring to the "maximum" damage doesn't tell the whole story
... you have to take into account that the modifier increases that maximum
damage. Ie, you can either do normal damage and use a shield for the DCV
bonus, or you can forgo the shield to do some extra damage. That's an
advantage, not a drawback.
Another example: a 2D6 HA w/ +1D6, 1/2 DCV Concentration costs more than
a straight 2D6 HA. Do you agree that this makes sense? If not, how is
it any different from the hand-and-a-half situation?
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Bob Greenwade writes:
> Am I missing something here? Isn't the STR Min for a hand-and-a-half
> weapon used one-handed the same as for a one-handed weapon?
Yes.
[...]
> Otherwise there is no mathematical difference, at least that I can see,
> between a one-handed weapon and a hand-and-a-half weapon used exclusively
> one-handed.
The difference is that for a given Strength, a hand-and-a-half weapon can
do more damage when wielded with two hands than with one, at the cost of
not being able to do anything with the off hand because it is holding the
weapon, too. If you never use two hands with the hand-and-a-half weapon,
you will never get that extra damage. Either way, you are at a slight
disadvantage when compared to "optimum".
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
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Bob Greenwade writes:
> A character with a hand-and-a-half weapon may use a shield any time he
> wants. He just sacrifices the option of using the weapon two-handed by
> using the shield, and this option he's sacrificing does not exist in the
> first place for a one-handed weapon.
His hand-and-a-half weapon can do more damage than his one-handed weapon.
By opting to use a sheild, he does one-handed weapon damage, not two-handed
weapon damage.
[...]
> I'm for the suggestion someone had (I think it was Tim) of making
> hand-and-a-half the default mode, and letting "One-handed" and Two-Handed"
> -1/4 Limitations.
The one reason I have against that is an historical one. Hand-and-a-half
weapons are an aberation, not the norm, so they should not be considered to
be the baseline.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
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Look, this is really very, very simple. You can do maximum damage. Or you
can use a shield for the DCV bonus. But you cannot do both at the same time.
The utility of the weapon is limited, not greatly but it *IS* limited.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapons Hands Questions
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Michael Surbrook writes:
> Uh... what? Rat, this makes no sense. The term s 'broadsword' is
> commonly applied to a wide variety of weapons, specifically Norse swords
> of the 8th to 10th C and Scottish basket-hilted swords of c. 1500-1650.
> I've never seen the term 'longsword' outside of an AD&D book. My
> reference books use terms like broadsword and cut and thrust sword.
Then I am curious as to what category the one-handed European "metal club"
fits within.
And if what was described is a 'broadsword', then either the hilt is too
short, or Hero's classification of it as a hand-and-a-half weapon is wrong.
Which is the case?
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
To: "'Albert Deschesne'" <Psihawk@pacbell.net&>
Champions Mailing List
<champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Gadget Belts
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:45:31 -0700
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Albert Deschesne points out:
>So what you're saying is (by extrapolation) that I can hand my buddy
>my 30 pt. flashlight and give my other buddy my 30pt swingline and
>use my 30pt clinging suction cups all at the same time from my 30
>pt OIF utility belt?
Good point. The points I was making before were focused on a slots that
has become used up, stolen, jammed, or otherwise useless. If it's going
to be actively used (either by the character or an ally), then the slot
would still be considered active.
For example, a character of mine has a belt MP with, among others, these
slots:
Radios: HRRH usable by 1 other
Light: Change Environment @ 0 END
Suction Cups: Clinging, usable by 1 other
Gas Masks: LS: Self-Contained Breathing, usable by 1 other
If his radio was in use by a friend, as GM, I'd allow him to switch to
his flashlight slot, but he wouldn't be able to radio his friend at the
same time. If the flashlight was stolen or destroyed or otherwise
disabled, I'd still allow him to switch back to the radio.
The logic of my rulings are based on the old Drain in a MP argument. If
an energy blast were in a MP, the STUN and BODY done by an attack
wouldn't instantly heal back when the slot switched. Likewise, drains
aren't instantly recovered either. Likewise, gadgets in a MP don't
disappear when slots are switched, but they can't be active at the same
time.
Gadgets can be likened to a power on charges in a MP slot. When the EB
uses its last charge, other slots can still be used. Likewise, when a
gadget is rendered useless, the rest of the MP is still usable, unless
specifically limited.
Dave Mattingly
http://www.haymaker.org
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing
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Joe Mucchiello writes:
> The point of the power is that the wall WILL take collateral damage if
> the character is knocked around while "Clinging" to it, at range.
Excuse me, but since when has Clinging ever had this effect?
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To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics?
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Joe Mucchiello writes:
> Unfortuneately, it does not list the cost of these skill levels.
Skill levels with one power cost 2 points per +1.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics?
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Bob Greenwade writes:
> This is discussed (albeit not directly on this specific issue) on pages
> 22-23 and 38. Based on what's given there, Skill Levels with Flight only
> would cost 3 points each;
Actually, it would be 2 points, not 3. Skill levels with a single power
(or skill, or maneuver or whatever) cost 2 points per +1, 3 points per +1
for three specific powers, skills or maneuvers, or a very tightly related
group of such. I could see a 3-point level applying to an Elemental
Control, but a Multipower or VPP would require a 5-point level. 8-point
and 10-point levels would be equally applicable.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
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Melinda and Steven Mitchell writes:
> Only For Those Who Understand Why Weapon Hands Rules are Broken
Okay, for the record I never said they were not broken. My entire argument
has been made under the supposition that they are not broken. Whether or
not they are broken is an entirely different issue.
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Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 14:23:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapons Hands Questions
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On 5 Jun 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> Michael Surbrook writes:
>
> > Uh... what? Rat, this makes no sense. The term s 'broadsword' is
> > commonly applied to a wide variety of weapons, specifically Norse swords
> > of the 8th to 10th C and Scottish basket-hilted swords of c. 1500-1650.
> > I've never seen the term 'longsword' outside of an AD&D book. My
> > reference books use terms like broadsword and cut and thrust sword.
>
> Then I am curious as to what category the one-handed European "metal club"
> fits within.
Where? In the Fantasy Hero listings? The common European one-handed cut
and thrust sword (or most any one-handed sword from AD 600 to AD 1600)
should be considered a 'braodsword'. One can make slight variations for
length and such by removing the +1 OCV or dropping a DC, but for the most
part the common sword of the Middle Ages is the FH 'broadsword'.
> And if what was described is a 'broadsword', then either the hilt is too
> short, or Hero's classification of it as a hand-and-a-half weapon is wrong.
> Which is the case?
In which? Len's example? All I said was that it sounded like a standard
broadsword to me. I think you are trying to pigeonhole things to much.
As Len said there are a number of names of the same weapon, mainly becuase
historical accounts used whatever local name they had for the item (or
used a native name for a foregin weapon). AD&D suffers from the fact the
Gygax used a lot of 18th C books for reference, some of which had names
I've seen nowhere else.
There is also the fact that what I might consider a one-handed broadsword
may be a one-and-a-half handed weapon for someone else.
Here is an example of names for a sword:
Sword, Broadsword, Longsword, Cut and Thrust Sword, War Sword, Small
Sword, Back Sword, Bastard Sword, Hand-and-a-Half Sword, Falchion,
Cinquedia, Short Sword, Estoc, Zwiehander, Flamberge, Claymore, Rapier,
Hanger, Saber, Cutlass, Scimitar, Shamser, Tulwar (etc).
Many of these weapons are pretty much the same as the other ones until you
hit the extremes.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 13:30:50 -0500
From: Commando <commando@mail.com>
Subject: Re: Acrobatics
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Reply-to: Commando <jstefanski@iname.com>
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We use acrobatics to allow a character to "kick-up" after falling prone with
a successful skill roll. This allows a character to get up without wasting
a half phase action.
JS
===================================
"There can BE only One!"
Send all messages to commando@mail.com
===================================
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Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 14:06:23 -0500 (CDT)
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net>
Subject: drugs
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I've decided to try and launch a new plot in my current campaign.
The plot that i want to start deals with drugs; more specifically,
a new drug.
I don't have a actually name for it yet, but my working name
for it is 'Lightning'. When someone takes the drug, they experience
increased strength and dexterity. Only problem is that it has a side effect.
Now what that side effect will be, I haven't decided upon. Could be
a bloody nose, could be that they take body from the drug. I don't know.
That's the drug.
What I am pondering is how the drug is made. Having been
inspired by a few movis, I have decided that the drug is actually made
from the adrenalin glands of humans. Sick, yes I know. But fun.
So I am trying to find a way to take bodies, or more to the point, people
disappearing. Make the heroes think for a change.
Any and all input is appreciated.
I am figuring that the drug would be made using Xd6 of Aid.
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Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 12:27:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dennis C Hwang <dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Bab 5 Hero: Races; Non-aligned worlds
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On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:
<snip>
> And on the top of the Drazi, I'm starting to suspect that they don't
> have personal names. Ever hear one addressed or referred to by name? The
> Drazi ambassador is just "The Drazi Ambassador." I don't know that this
> would be reflected in Hero terms, but it's an interesting point.
I'm pretty sure that there was at least one Drazi whom Marcus addressed by
name as he (the Drazi) was helping him escape from somewhere or other.
Unfortunately, I don't recall the episode title (or even the season, for
that matter).
Besides that, we know that one of their religious figures bears the name
Droshalla, so the concept of individual monikers isn't completely unknown
to them (although I suppose their use could be restricted).
--Dennis
*************************************************************
* dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu * xenopathologist at large! *
*************************************************************
* So...you're keeping me alive because you don't know *
* DOS. *
* *
* --Izzy to Gabriel *
* THE PROPHECY II *
*************************************************************
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
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Trevor Barrie writes:
> But just referring to the "maximum" damage doesn't tell the whole story
> ... you have to take into account that the modifier increases that maximum
> damage. Ie, you can either do normal damage and use a shield for the DCV
> bonus, or you can forgo the shield to do some extra damage. That's an
> advantage, not a drawback.
Yep, dropping your DCV by upwards of 3 is an advantage. Yep. I understand
completely.
NOT.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapons Hands Questions
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Michael Surbrook writes:
> In which? Len's example? All I said was that it sounded like a standard
> broadsword to me. I think you are trying to pigeonhole things to much.
We are dealing with game mechanics and special effects; you have to do
that. A one-handed weapon does not have a sufficiently large hilt to be
wielded with two hands; a hand-and-a-half weapon does. Is a "broadsword" a
one-handed weapon, or a hand-and-a-half weapon? More to the point, is
Len's sword a one-handed weapon or a hand-and-a-half weapon?
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Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 16:15:22 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: DNPC appearances
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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What are some ways that DNPCs make appearances in your group? When the
villains attack some public place, do they just happen to be at that public
place? It seems that using this too much would be a bad thing...the PCs
would learn to always scout for DNPCs before going after the villains. Are
their appearances ever as minor as just a quick phone call or something
similar (strictly role-playing), or are they usually used as an added
factor in a combat situation?
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Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 16:15:28 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Acrobatics
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by Commando
>We use acrobatics to allow a character to "kick-up" after falling prone
with
a successful skill roll. This allows a character to get up without wasting
a half phase action.<
Nice. Does this roll cost any time, or is no harm done if he fails the
roll?
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Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 16:19:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Acrobatics
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On Fri, 5 Jun 1998, David Stallard wrote:
> Message text written by Commando
> >We use acrobatics to allow a character to "kick-up" after falling prone
> with
> a successful skill roll. This allows a character to get up without wasting
> a half phase action.<
>
> Nice. Does this roll cost any time, or is no harm done if he fails the
> roll?
A 'kippup' roll takes no time. Failing means that you take a half-phase
action getting up instead of a 0 phase action.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
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Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 15:43:19 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> > The point of the power is that the wall WILL take collateral damage if
> > the character is knocked around while "Clinging" to it, at range.
>
> Excuse me, but since when has Clinging ever had this effect?
Simple SFX, Rat. If I'm clinging to a wall and get knocked off of
it, it is quite within the realm of SFX for that wall to be damaged from
me being ripped away. Depends on the SFX of the power.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 15:48:04 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: drugs
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> What I am pondering is how the drug is made. Having been
> inspired by a few movis, I have decided that the drug is actually made
> from the adrenalin glands of humans. Sick, yes I know. But fun.
I see we've seen _Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas_, hmm?
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 17:07:24 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Clinging and Superleap
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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All the talk about clinging/climbing reminded me of a story about one of my
characters. This guy was named Vampyre, but there was no relation to a
real vampire at all.... He was sorta like Spider-Man except without the
webbing, and he had a poisonous bite which was a Continuous Uncontrolled
NND, stopped by any form of rPD (this is irrelevant to the story, I just
bring it up to explain his name). Anyway, this character had Clinging and
a fairly strong Superleap.
So, the hero team is on the umpteenth floor of this skyscraper, fighting a
bunch of villains. I think most of them were the GM's creations, but I
remember that Oculon was there (for comedy relief, since the GM thought he
was one of the worst characters he had ever seen). Anyway, my character
gets knocked out of the window and plummets to the street below. However,
his Superleap is strong enough to not only stop his damage, but to fire him
halfway back up the building. So, he uses his Clinging from that point and
makes his way back to the battle. A few phases after he returns, he gets
blasted out the window again and does the same thing. I can just imagine
what this would have looked like to a spectator on the street, not to
mention the villains ("He keeps coming back!"). Okay, so maybe you had to
be there....
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 17:26:57 -0500 (CDT)
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: DNPC appearances
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
>
> What are some ways that DNPCs make appearances in your group? When the
> villains attack some public place, do they just happen to be at that public
> place? It seems that using this too much would be a bad thing...the PCs
> would learn to always scout for DNPCs before going after the villains. Are
> their appearances ever as minor as just a quick phone call or something
> similar (strictly role-playing), or are they usually used as an added
> factor in a combat situation?
>
I used the encounter tables in Champions 2 or 3, after rolling for disads.
Basically they had results like - DNPC in danger, -DNPC affects identity or
comes close to discovering secret identity*, - DNPC has personal crisis, etc.
etc. So briefly, I used them for roleplaying opportunities as well as
combat factors. Also, depending on the scenario I was running, I tried to
think of ways their DNPC's would logically be involved.
*Since most times characters told their DNPC's about their costumed identity,
this result typically got rerolled.
Curt
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Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 17:33:45 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
CC: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll: Line of Sight
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Bob Greenwade wrote:
> At 08:48 PM 6/4/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote:
> >Bob Greenwade wrote:
> >
> >> At 09:00 PM 6/3/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote:
> >> >Bob Greenwade wrote:
> >> <snip>
> >> Absolutely! This type of video monitor system -- the basic type, which
> >> is what was originally under discussion -- does not represent a Targeting
> >> Sense. The rifle cannot be targeted this way; thus, neither can Mental
> >> Powers, and for the same reasons.
> >
> >Please explain why I can't take this shot? To extend you little scenerio
> lets say
> >the target is about 8 feet behind the fourth shrub in my front yard.
> Since each
> >shrubs is about 3 feet apart and the first on is one foot to the left of
> the front
> >door. That would put the target at 13 feet to the left of the front door.
> All of
> >this information is easily abotainable from area knowledge of my apartmant
> and a
> >video camera view of my front yard. Even if I'm off by as much as +/- 3
> feet I
> >still have the hex the target is in which may be sufficient to fire the
> gun and is
> >definitely sufficient for mental powers.
>
> You *can* take the shot, but you *can't* target it visually. You can
> only take the information you have, and *extrapolate* the location of your
> target. You may be able to figure out logically and mathematically where
> the target is, and even visualize the location in your mind, but you can't
> actually Target it in the Hero sense of the word. For that, you'd need to
> actually see it with your eyes, or have some sort of electronic aid.
> Similarly, a mentalist also doesn't have a Line Of Sight. He can
> extrapolate the location of his target who is on TV based on what he's told
> and is able to see on the screen, and attempt to "fire blind" at the
> location where he thinks the target is, but this is an entirely different
> matter from being able to see the target directly.
> The question isn't, "Is such an attack possible?" The question is, "Can
> such an attack be made as easily as if there was a direct, uninterrupted
> line from the attacker to the target?" In both cases, the answer to the
> first is obviously yes; the attack *is* possible. Also in both cases, the
> targeting is being done by logic and extrapolation; it's possible to hit
> the target, but it's just not as easy nor as simple as using one's own
> vision to target. Thus, in both cases, the answer to the second question
> -- the one which determines whether Line of Sight with a Targeting Sense is
> present -- is no.
>
All I have ever claimed is that the egoist can make the attack. IMO the egoist is
fireing blind. Just like shooting through a wall or covered window to try and hit
a target.
> >> With the aforementioned triangulation (and please note that I'm using
> >> that term rather broadly). It was possibly done by hand, and possibly done
> >> by computer; not being a military man (4-F), I wouldn't know. But I simply
> >> cannot imagine that the AWACS were simply able to look at the radar screen
> >> from a remote location with no other point of reference and fire weapons
> >> from their own location with no electronic tie-in whatsoever with the radar
> >> system.
> >
> >Wrong again. The AWACS locates the target, calls the missile sytem
> operators and
> >gives them the coordinate. Then then fire the missile at the given
> coordinate.
> >Depending on the type of the missile, the AWACS may even be able to give
> >additional guidence information to the missile while it is in flight to
> guarentee
> >that it hits the target. The wezpon being fired could be anything from an
> >artillary shell to a dumb missle to a cruise missle to an ICBM. The
> simple fact
> >is the vehicle doing the targetting and the weapon doing the attacking are
> not
> >part of the same system by any means. Another question is how is
> artillary worked
> >when a forward observer is givin the coordinates to be fired at. He's not
> the one
> >firing the weapon but he is the one targetting the weapona and making the
> >corrections for missing the target.
>
> You told me I'm wrong, and then described how I'm right. "The AWACS
> locates the target, calls the missile system operators, and gives them the
> coordinate[s]." If the operator was firing by Line of Sight using a
> Targeting Sense, using coordinates would be unnecessary and possibly
> meaningless; the operator would just point the missile at the target and
> fire. As it stands here, the operator is firing blind at the hex (or, more
> likely -- in game terms -- instructing the Computer to fire at the hex, or
> a missile bought as a self-piloting Vehicle to go to the hex).
>
Depends on the missle. Some systems can be fired directly by the AWACS (Hawkeye)
with no other involvement others need human or computer assistance. In the case
of other aircraft (F-18, F-16, F-15 & F-14) the AWACS needs only give a pair of
angles, volicty, distance and heading for the pilot to be able to fire the missle,
even though the target may be outside the planes radar range. Another thing to
note is that the targets that AWACS and Hawkeye aircraft track are always moving
(ships and aircraft aren't very useful standing still) so the gunner, whomever it
is, is not targetting a hex but a moving object. Stationary targets are left to
groud attack specialists (A-10, helos, tanks and infantry).
> >That's exactly what I said it was, skill levels. A HUD is like a LASER
> sight it
> >givesthe shooter better targetting information. It is not a vision system
> nor is
> >it a targetting system, it is simply skill levels. The vision system is
> the IR
> >cameras on the maverick missiles which send a live video feed to the onboard
> >monitor whcih the pilot uses for targetting the missile and flying the
> plane at
> >night. Once again we have a live camera feed used to target a weapon.
>
> Would the live camera feed *alone* be enough to target the missiles? No
> maps or coordinate entries; just look at what's on the screen, point, and
> shoot your target with as much accuracy as if the operator were using just
> his eyes?
In the case of the Maverick missles on the A-10, that's all that is needed. Tell
the missile what in it's field of vision is to be targetted and away it goes. Due
to the low tech of the Maverick (only $80,000 each) and the low tech A-10 there
wasn't a whole lot more to be had. I'm willing to bet money that the computer
system you are using is more powerful then the entire computer network on the
A-10.
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Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 17:35:18 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
To: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
CC: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Handcuffs
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Michael Surbrook wrote:
> And another gadget question...
>
> Here's my take on a pair of handcuffs. Anyone else have any thoughts?
> (I don't have my book handy, so I can't enter limitation values)
>
> Entangle
> 5 DEF/ 1 BODY (all you have to do is break the chain)
> Transparent to attacks (+1/2)
> Can only entangle two limbs (-?)
> Must follow Grab (-1/2?)
> No Range (-1/2) - unless your Armitage III
> OAF (-1)
> 1 Recoverable Charge (-1 1/2?)
>
> ***************************************************************************
> * "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
> * Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
> * Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
> * http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
> * Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
> * Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
> ***************************************************************************
The only thing you forgot was Independant (2).
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Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 17:44:57 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
CC: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Bob Greenwade writes:
>
> > This is discussed (albeit not directly on this specific issue) on pages
> > 22-23 and 38. Based on what's given there, Skill Levels with Flight only
> > would cost 3 points each;
>
> Actually, it would be 2 points, not 3. Skill levels with a single power
> (or skill, or maneuver or whatever) cost 2 points per +1, 3 points per +1
> for three specific powers, skills or maneuvers, or a very tightly related
> group of such. I could see a 3-point level applying to an Elemental
> Control, but a Multipower or VPP would require a 5-point level. 8-point
> and 10-point levels would be equally applicable.
Depending on the FX of the Multipower (like a single foci such as a gun, power
bands or granade launcher) it may only need a 3 point skill level for a +1.
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Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 18:11:42 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
To: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net>
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: drugs
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Palace of Dwarves wrote:
> I've decided to try and launch a new plot in my current campaign.
> The plot that i want to start deals with drugs; more specifically,
> a new drug.
> I don't have a actually name for it yet, but my working name
> for it is 'Lightning'. When someone takes the drug, they experience
> increased strength and dexterity. Only problem is that it has a side effect.
> Now what that side effect will be, I haven't decided upon. Could be
> a bloody nose, could be that they take body from the drug. I don't know.
> That's the drug.
> What I am pondering is how the drug is made. Having been
> inspired by a few movis, I have decided that the drug is actually made
> from the adrenalin glands of humans. Sick, yes I know. But fun.
> So I am trying to find a way to take bodies, or more to the point, people
> disappearing. Make the heroes think for a change.
>
> Any and all input is appreciated.
>
> I am figuring that the drug would be made using Xd6 of Aid.
With say 4 Dice to each STR, DEX, and SPD with OAF, IND, 1 turn dealy, 1-1 hour
charge, IIF, side effects (30 points). The cost of the drug would be 9 points.
A good side effect associated with adreniline would be some sort of Psychosis. I
played and run such scenarios and they can be alot of fun and excitement. When a
horde of psychotic physically enthanced people (DNPCs are great for this) running
loose. The heroes have a hard time stopping the destruction and trying to track
down the source of the drug. The most fun I've had with this scenario is when
the drug gave a 30 point Ego Elemental Control (Mental attack, Mind Control,
Telepathy, and 20 Str TK) with the side effect being -13 inteligence, -2 Ego, and
Extreme Psycotic. The drug had all the above limitations with the addition of No
Concious Control. The best part of the scenario was watching the supers try and
gently take out the psychotic normals who have no defenses speak of. A lot of
disads can be brought into play as well and requiring some good roll playing and
creative thought.
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Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 18:23:01 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
To: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
CC: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: DNPC appearances
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
David Stallard wrote:
> What are some ways that DNPCs make appearances in your group? When the
> villains attack some public place, do they just happen to be at that public
> place? It seems that using this too much would be a bad thing...the PCs
> would learn to always scout for DNPCs before going after the villains. Are
> their appearances ever as minor as just a quick phone call or something
> similar (strictly role-playing), or are they usually used as an added
> factor in a combat situation?
Some of the best uses of DNPC's don't even envolve combat. The significant
other who suddenly gets sick and is in the hospital at the same time the bad
guy is robbing the bank. The friend who barrows the heros car the just
happens to have the heros key focus in it for a night on the town and then
forgets where he parked it the next morning. The kid who's big game/recital it
across the street from the buring building. These kinds of situations are what
DNPC are for. There should never be enough time in life to be both a super
hero and a private life.
PS: One rule of thumb I like to use on DMPCs is that the more competant they
are the more dice of unluck they get. Bad things just seem to happer to DNPCs,
unluck is a good way to reflct this.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Lighter Characters (was Poll: Champions Dialogue #2.)
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Date: 05 Jun 1998 20:04:30 -0400
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Robert A West writes:
> 1) You misquote the "formula:" 1" Flight(-1) (1 CP) = 1 STR (1 CP).
My mistake. Sorry.
> 2) An equivalence of 2" Movement = + 1 STR is given on HSR p. 142. The
> more favorable ratio was based on comparison with the cost of Shrinking.
Since I get lambasted for it, this is an optional rule, and it is
restricted to Flight and Superleap. And this optional use of Flight or
Superleap adds to Strength only for lifting or pushing things; it does not
replace Strength.
> 3) As stated in the part of the post that you ignored, the Limitation
> does not rely on an equivalence between Flight and STR.
It is being used like Strength. Therefore there must be an equivalence.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing
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Tim R Gilberg writes:
>> Excuse me, but since when has Clinging ever had this effect?
> Simple SFX, Rat. If I'm clinging to a wall and get knocked off of
> it, it is quite within the realm of SFX for that wall to be damaged from
> me being ripped away. Depends on the SFX of the power.
Sorry, no, Clinging by itself cannot do damage, period. This might be a
wonky Side Effect kind of thing, but it is not Clinging.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
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Filksinger writes:
> Yes, you are at a disadvantage when compared to "optimum". You definitely
> deserve a Limitation in relation to "optimum".
Yeah. Considering that "optimum" is the baseline Hero is working from, if
you are at a disadvantage compared to that, you get a bonus for it. If you
are at an advantage compared to that you pay points for it. That is the
way Hero works.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
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Date: 05 Jun 1998 20:22:11 -0400
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Filksinger writes:
> Well, the impression I get has been that everyone thinks they are broken,
> and is trying to explain to you how.
Funny, I don't. I just see a bunch of people, yourself included, saying
"you're wrong" with varying degree of insult.
I see people treating handedness as a Strength Min modifier. If you do
that, then yes, it seems broken. But handedness is not a Strength Min
modifier, it is a "what you are capable of doing while using the power"
modifier.
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Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 17:36:20 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: DNPC appearances
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 08:28 PM 6/5/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
>Subject: DNPC appearances
>Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
>
>What are some ways that DNPCs make appearances in your group? When the
>villains attack some public place, do they just happen to be at that public
>place? It seems that using this too much would be a bad thing...the PCs
>would learn to always scout for DNPCs before going after the villains. Are
>their appearances ever as minor as just a quick phone call or something
>similar (strictly role-playing), or are they usually used as an added
>factor in a combat situation?
Early on, the DNPC would "just happen" to be around when a combat came
up. I've found some better ways of working this in, though.
One is to give the DNPCs some kind of "hook" that enables them to at
least be logically involved in the occasional adventure, if not the seed
for one. One of the Justifiers' DNPCs works for a tabloid TV news show
that focuses on the exploits of superheroes; reporters are really good at
getting in trouble. In the past I've had or seen DNPCs who were
researchers or office personnel for corporations owned by VIPER and other
groups; who had some personal reason for rarely leaving the PC's side (the
doting mother of a Public-ID hero, to give a comical example, or the
less-than-ideally-perceptive Hero Guy Fan Club); who themselves had some
low-grade superpower and were Hunted by an organization related to that
power; or who worked for law enforcement, and occasionally got in over
their heads when a situation they were investigating turned out to involve
supervillains.
To count as an appearance for purposes of the Disadvantage, the DNPC
really should be in some kind of trouble that the PC has to extricate him
or her (or them) out of. The above ideas just make it easier.
---
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Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 19:45:33 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> > Simple SFX, Rat. If I'm clinging to a wall and get knocked off of
> > it, it is quite within the realm of SFX for that wall to be damaged from
> > me being ripped away. Depends on the SFX of the power.
>
> Sorry, no, Clinging by itself cannot do damage, period. This might be a
> wonky Side Effect kind of thing, but it is not Clinging.
Says who?
Minor (and only minor) damage to things being clung to when
knocked away from those clung to things is perfectly acceptible as a SFX.
What is so wrong about it?
Of course, that's still no reason to use Clinging, Ranged. Just
use flight with the same SFX of damage.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing
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Tim R Gilberg writes:
>> Sorry, no, Clinging by itself cannot do damage, period. This might be a
>> wonky Side Effect kind of thing, but it is not Clinging.
> Says who?
Says the fact that Clinging does not do damage. You want that, buy an
Energy Blast or Killing attack.
> Minor (and only minor) damage to things being clung to when
> knocked away from those clung to things is perfectly acceptible as a SFX.
> What is so wrong about it?
The same thing that is wrong with a Transformation Attack: living bodies to
corpses. It might be a valid effect, but that is not the power.
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Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 17:49:52 -0700
To: "Champions News Group" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Gadget Belts ... ? about MP
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 09:47 AM 6/5/1998 -0700, David W. Salmon wrote:
>Just a small question here brought on by this discussion. If you apply OIF
>to the MP cost doesn't each slot also have to have the OIF limitation placed
>on it ... and if you do that then how can you also have an OAF limitation
>placed on each slot as well ?
Not, in this case, "as well," but "blown up" from OIF to OAF. The belt
has the OIF Limitation because it's Inaccessible, but the individual
gadgets are Accessible and get the extra -1/2 Limitation to represent the
difference.
Now, theoretically it would be possible to have two Focus Limitations on
the same Power; for this to happen, it would have to be possible to take
away one Focus without taking away the other, and both would have to be
necessary to use the Power. (I think there was a Russian character in the
Marvel Universe who had powers that only worked when he struck his hammer
and sickle together; take either away, and he can't use those powers,
though each could be used individually as a normal weapon. This would be
one example.) I don't have much in the way of mechanics worked out for
this (most of that work will probably be done if and when TUG gets
approved), but what I'm working with is that every Focus after the first
and largest gets half value.
---
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Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 10:51:05 +1000
To: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
From: Mad Hamish <h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Does Champions simulate comics?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 05:24 PM 6/3/98 -0400, David Stallard wrote:
>2 - Has anybody seen the Masterbook or Torg card system? There are some
>neat functions in there that supplement regular game play. There are rules
>for allowing characters to perform "Trick" maneuvers on opponents, thus
>tricking them into making stupid mistakes. There are other really neat
>aspects of this system, and I have considered working it into my champions
>games, but have not given it much thought.<
>
>I thought the Torg card system was absolutely incredible for making each
>combat unique and much more interesting than "I punch...I punch again...I
>punch again". Those cards were the most innovative thing I've seen in
>role-playing in quite a while (still are!),
Agreed, I really like the system and the cards (of course it's a bitch to
draw the Martyr card but..)
> and I really wish that they
>(not necessarily cards, but that concept--maybe special dice) had become
>more of a standard instead of being a hidden treasure in a relatively
>obscure RPG. I'd encourage anyone to pick up a used copy of the Torg box
>(as far as I know, the game died a few years back so you'd probably have to
>buy it used)
Check out Titan games on the web, it often has Torg stuff, also Darkholder
seems to have some.
> just to get their hands on these cards...simply a brilliant
>tool for encouraging player imagination. I think eventually you could ween
>the group off the cards and still get all that variety of action. Okay,
>now I need something to clean up this drool with....
Note also that the Masterbook series was basically Torg changed from D20 to
2D10, and The World Of Bloodshadow was a very interesting setting.
****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************
Mad Hamish
Hamish Laws
h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au
h_laws@tassie.net.au
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Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 17:51:54 -0700
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Handcuffs
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 09:40 AM 6/5/1998 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>And another gadget question...
>
>Here's my take on a pair of handcuffs. Anyone else have any thoughts?
>(I don't have my book handy, so I can't enter limitation values)
>
>Entangle
>5 DEF/ 1 BODY (all you have to do is break the chain)
>Transparent to attacks (+1/2)
>Can only entangle two limbs (-?)
>Must follow Grab (-1/2?)
>No Range (-1/2) - unless your Armitage III
>OAF (-1)
>1 Recoverable Charge (-1 1/2?)
With Dave's additional Limitations, this works for me. :-]
---
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Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 18:02:25 -0700
To: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll: Line of Sight
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 05:33 PM 6/5/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote:
>> The question isn't, "Is such an attack possible?" The question is, "Can
>> such an attack be made as easily as if there was a direct, uninterrupted
>> line from the attacker to the target?" In both cases, the answer to the
>> first is obviously yes; the attack *is* possible. Also in both cases, the
>> targeting is being done by logic and extrapolation; it's possible to hit
>> the target, but it's just not as easy nor as simple as using one's own
>> vision to target. Thus, in both cases, the answer to the second question
>> -- the one which determines whether Line of Sight with a Targeting Sense is
>> present -- is no.
>
>All I have ever claimed is that the egoist can make the attack. IMO the
egoist is
>fireing blind. Just like shooting through a wall or covered window to try
and hit
>a target.
Actually, what I recall you saying initially was that a TV monitoring
system could be used to establish Line of Sight with the target. That's an
entirely different point.
If you're basically agreeing with what I'm trying to get across, we can
probably just drop this discussion. I imagine most of the rest of the list
is getting tired of us talking past each other on this point. :-]
>> You told me I'm wrong, and then described how I'm right. "The AWACS
>> locates the target, calls the missile system operators, and gives them the
>> coordinate[s]." If the operator was firing by Line of Sight using a
>> Targeting Sense, using coordinates would be unnecessary and possibly
>> meaningless; the operator would just point the missile at the target and
>> fire. As it stands here, the operator is firing blind at the hex (or, more
>> likely -- in game terms -- instructing the Computer to fire at the hex, or
>> a missile bought as a self-piloting Vehicle to go to the hex).
>
>Depends on the missle. Some systems can be fired directly by the AWACS
(Hawkeye)
>with no other involvement others need human or computer assistance. In
the case
>of other aircraft (F-18, F-16, F-15 & F-14) the AWACS needs only give a
pair of
>angles, volicty, distance and heading for the pilot to be able to fire the
missle,
>even though the target may be outside the planes radar range. Another
thing to
>note is that the targets that AWACS and Hawkeye aircraft track are always
moving
>(ships and aircraft aren't very useful standing still) so the gunner,
whomever it
>is, is not targetting a hex but a moving object. Stationary targets are
left to
>groud attack specialists (A-10, helos, tanks and infantry).
I go into this in TUSV, and while most of the previewers have tended to
disagree (or at least wonder about it), I do mention that a vehicle that
fills up at least a hex can have a hex on it targeted, with modifiers for
Velocity, if that would yield a lower DCV than trying to do the shot
against the ship's straight DCV (including any Hit Location Modifiers).
(Actually reviewers' comments on this have ranged from just short of,
"This is ridiculous," to, "How often do you really think this will come
into play?")
Anyway, in any event, none of the examples you give above (except maybe
the Hawkeye; I wasn't quite clear on that) actually appear to use the
gunners' LOS for targeting, at least from your description. This does
rather support the "firing blind" point which we appear to have agreed on.
>> Would the live camera feed *alone* be enough to target the missiles? No
>> maps or coordinate entries; just look at what's on the screen, point, and
>> shoot your target with as much accuracy as if the operator were using just
>> his eyes?
>
>In the case of the Maverick missles on the A-10, that's all that is
needed. Tell
>the missile what in it's field of vision is to be targetted and away it
goes. Due
>to the low tech of the Maverick (only $80,000 each) and the low tech A-10
there
>wasn't a whole lot more to be had. I'm willing to bet money that the
computer
>system you are using is more powerful then the entire computer network on the
>A-10.
How is the missile told this information? A computer network on the
A-10? That qualifies as something more than just a live camera feed.
---
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Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 18:05:43 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 02:03 PM 6/5/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Melinda and Steven Mitchell writes:
>
>> Only For Those Who Understand Why Weapon Hands Rules are Broken
>
>Okay, for the record I never said they were not broken. My entire argument
>has been made under the supposition that they are not broken. Whether or
>not they are broken is an entirely different issue.
Aw, geez....
I've never used the Handed rules in Hero4, so it's never come up for me
before, but this is arguably the single most broken thing in the whole
rulebook. A "Limitation" that actually adds to the utility of a Power,
while in no way reducing it? Give me a break!
Please, Rat, just say that you understand everything we've been trying
to say to you, and that you agree that this rule is broken.... Please....
---
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Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 18:10:42 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 01:29 PM 6/5/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Bob Greenwade writes:
>
>> Am I missing something here? Isn't the STR Min for a hand-and-a-half
>> weapon used one-handed the same as for a one-handed weapon?
>
>Yes.
>
>[...]
>
>> Otherwise there is no mathematical difference, at least that I can see,
>> between a one-handed weapon and a hand-and-a-half weapon used exclusively
>> one-handed.
>
>The difference is that for a given Strength, a hand-and-a-half weapon can
>do more damage when wielded with two hands than with one, at the cost of
>not being able to do anything with the off hand because it is holding the
>weapon, too. If you never use two hands with the hand-and-a-half weapon,
>you will never get that extra damage. Either way, you are at a slight
>disadvantage when compared to "optimum".
So, let's see here....
Mathematically, a hand-and-a-half sword, used one-handed, is identical
to a one-handed sword of the same Damage Class in every respect. However,
while this is the optimum level for the one-handed sword, this is *less
than* the optimum level for the hand-and-a-half sword. This is what I
understand you to be saying.
If the optimum level for the one-handed sword is less than the optimum
level for the hand-and-a-half sword, then the optimum level for the
hand-and-a-half sword is greater than the optimum level for the one-handed
sword. That's basic algebraic logic (if a<b then b>a).
If the optimum level for the hand-and-a-half sword is greater than the
optimum level for the one-handed sword, then turning a one-handed sword
into a hand-and-a-half sword should *never* be a Limitation. It's an
Advantage (or, more likely, a Limitation for the hand-and-a-half sword to
become a one-handed sword).
---
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Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 11:14:00 +1000
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Mad Hamish <h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 06:49 AM 6/4/98 -0300, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>On Mon, 1 Jun 1998, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>
>> >> But that is an example. You would only include it in dinosaurs and
>> >> Godzilla. Even dragons are too small for line attack claws.
>> >
>> >Dragons are smaller than dinosaurs?
>>
>> Godzilla is not a dinosaur.
>
>Yes, but you said "dinosaurs and Godzilla".
Well I'd argue that a sauropod would have area attack with it's tail, ditto
for a stegasaur. The only dinosaurs I can think of which _might_ have an
attack to hit more than one person with claws would be a relatively small
carnivour doing a move by type attack on multiple targets, the impression
I've gotten is that the big carnivours were largely mouth attackers (note
that I'm not a dinosaur expert and I don't know if a small carnivour would
really be able to attack multiple people)
>
>> He is usually called hundreds of feet tall.
>
>Comparable to the heavyweights among dragons, then, but not comparable
>to the very biggest of them. Jormungand could probably swallow him in one
>gulp.
Varies from genre to genre. Nor would I classify Jormungand as a dragon,
the offspring of Loki and a giantess isn't a standard dragon, rather a
deity level critter. If you want to argue that he's a dragon is Thor a human?
>
>> Dragons are usually tens of feet long. (Based on my extensive AD&D
>> background. :-)
Again it varies widely.
An adult white dragon comes in with 41-50 feet body length and 36-45 feet
tail length. a Great Wyrm gold dragon comes in 148-162 feet body & 133-146
foot tail.
>
>AD&D dragons are apparently wimps.:)
>
In first Ed yep, not in second Ed.
>> Maybe I was wrong with dinos, especially since I don't think there were any
>> long armed dinosaurs.
>
>I don't see the "typical" dragon as being smaller than, say, a brontosaurus.
Varies widely, I think a brontosaurus is about 90 feet maximum, much of it
tail. In AD&D terms a normal adult dragon would be the same length or
longer. Not necessarily in other games.
****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************
Mad Hamish
Hamish Laws
h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au
h_laws@tassie.net.au
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Gadget Belts ... ? about MP
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Date: 05 Jun 1998 21:38:16 -0400
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Bob Greenwade writes:
> Now, theoretically it would be possible to have two Focus Limitations
> on the same Power; for this to happen, it would have to be possible to
> take away one Focus without taking away the other, and both would have to
> be necessary to use the Power.
Umm... I think the best bonus you get is the worst case, because while
there may be multiple foci (lowercase "f") for the power's special effects,
they still qualifies as a single Focus (capital "F") as far as game
mechanics are concerned.
The prototypical "utility belt" is really an OHID, not a Focus, even though
the gadgets themselves are Foci.
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Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 20:46:42 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> > Says who?
>
> Says the fact that Clinging does not do damage. You want that, buy an
> Energy Blast or Killing attack.
For SFX-level collateral damage? Why? This would be like a SFX
of running or flight that scorched or minorly damaged the roads it moved
on, etc. This isn't a case of any significant combat damage.
> > Minor (and only minor) damage to things being clung to when
> > knocked away from those clung to things is perfectly acceptible as a SFX.
> > What is so wrong about it?
>
> The same thing that is wrong with a Transformation Attack: living bodies to
> corpses. It might be a valid effect, but that is not the power.
No. It's a minor SFX of a (IMO) flight power. You are using
reactive TK to cling to the city walls. If you are KnockBacked, your hold
is ripped away for minor damage and you, perhaps, get sued by the building
owner. =)
And living bodies to corpses is just fine as a power, though a bit
too expensive.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 05 Jun 1998 21:51:55 -0400
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Bob Greenwade writes:
> I've never used the Handed rules in Hero4, so it's never come up for me
> before, but this is arguably the single most broken thing in the whole
> rulebook. A "Limitation" that actually adds to the utility of a Power,
> while in no way reducing it? Give me a break!
Yeah, voluntarilly reducing one's DCV by 1 to 3 is in no way a reduction.
Sure, I understand, now. It makes perfect sense.
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Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 19:01:11 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <scm@mactyre.net>
Subject: PRIMUS Sourcebook Announcement/ Shameless Self Promotion
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Greetings, all --
Just wanted to update everyone on the status of the PRIMUS Sourcebook.
It's been done for a while, I've done the editorial corrections that were
requested, and I'm now putting it into the format Hero desires it to be in
for putting it onto disk (those character sheets are what's taking so long,
and that wacky full time job isn't helping much, either). We're talking
the beginning of September for a finished, ready-to-order product, I think.
The PRIMUS website is about to be overhauled drastically to reflect the new
content and to give you samples of what will be in the book, including
artwork! Look for those changes in the next couple of weeks. What you'll
continue to find on the website, other than what will be marked as
promotional, are supplementary characters and information that aren't
included in the book. Once the book is out, new material will continue to
be added to the website. Please note that neither the PRIMUS Sourcebook
itself nor the website (once overhauled) will be campaign specific to what
was affectionately referred to as the "Golden Hawks Universe," but will be
mainstream Hero Games. That website is located at
http://www.mactyre.net/scm/primus.html.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled rules discussions -- thanks
for letting me take up your bandwidth.
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
http://www.mactyre.net
A flung stone has always been a fool's favorite means of putting himself on
a level with the wise.
-- Edgar Pangborn
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 05 Jun 1998 22:02:53 -0400
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Bob Greenwade writes:
> Mathematically, a hand-and-a-half sword, used one-handed, is identical
> to a one-handed sword of the same Damage Class in every respect. However,
> while this is the optimum level for the one-handed sword, this is *less
> than* the optimum level for the hand-and-a-half sword. This is what I
> understand you to be saying.
Take a character with a 16 Strength, CV 5. Give him a bastard sword:
1.5D6K (25AP), 1.5 hands, 13 STR min, and a medium shield: +2 DCV (10AP).
With one hand on the sword he does 1.5D6K and has a +2 DCV bonus (35AP).
With two hands on the sword he does 2D6K (30AP) and gets no DCV bonus.
Now, if my math is even vaguely on target, 30 active points is not
identical to 35 active points. And unless I am completely off, 30 active
points is less than 35 active points.
So tell me, where is the advantage in *REDUCING* one's ability?
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Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 21:18:31 -0500
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Handcuffs
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>>Here's my take on a pair of handcuffs. Anyone else have any thoughts?
>>(I don't have my book handy, so I can't enter limitation values)
>>
>>Entangle
>>5 DEF/ 1 BODY (all you have to do is break the chain)
>>Transparent to attacks (+1/2)
>>Can only entangle two limbs (-?)
>>Must follow Grab (-1/2?)
>>No Range (-1/2) - unless your Armitage III
>>OAF (-1)
>>1 Recoverable Charge (-1 1/2?)
>
> With Dave's additional Limitations, this works for me. :-]
Just for nostaglia purposes, here's the write-up from Andrew Robinson's
1986 GADGETS! book:
"DEF 5 Entanglement, Victim may be attacked without harm to the
entanglement (+1/2); 1 pt. of BODY (break defense +1 to be free, -1/2);
victim's legs not entangled (-1/2); OAF cuffs (-1); only usable on one
target at a time (-1); may only be used on 0 DCV target (-2); 1 use (-1
1/4*). Real Cost 10, Active Cost 75.
DEF 7 version (same limitations), Real Cost 14, Active Cost 105.
* While consisting of only one charge (one pair of cuffs), they may be used
over and over again until lost or destroyed. The effective limited use
bonus is taken as -2 bonus levels, so the 1 charge yields a bonus equal to
3 charges."
A little verbose, but it's substantially similar to Surbrook's treatment in
most of the particulars.
Damon
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 05 Jun 1998 22:23:57 -0400
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Tim R Gilberg writes:
> For SFX-level collateral damage? Why? This would be like a SFX
> of running or flight that scorched or minorly damaged the roads it moved
> on, etc. This isn't a case of any significant combat damage.
"The point of the power is that the wall WILL [emphasis *NOT* mine --Rat]
take collateral damage". That is not Clinging, that is a power that does
damage. Perhaps not much, but enough to be noticeable.
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Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 21:39:53 -0500
To: "Champions News Group" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Gadget Belts ... ? about MP
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 05:49 PM 6/5/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> Now, theoretically it would be possible to have two Focus Limitations on
>the same Power; for this to happen, it would have to be possible to take
>away one Focus without taking away the other, and both would have to be
>necessary to use the Power. (I think there was a Russian character in the
>Marvel Universe who had powers that only worked when he struck his hammer
>and sickle together; take either away, and he can't use those powers,
>though each could be used individually as a normal weapon. This would be
>one example.) I don't have much in the way of mechanics worked out for
>this (most of that work will probably be done if and when TUG gets
>approved), but what I'm working with is that every Focus after the first
>and largest gets half value.
Bob, there is a Marvel Universe character like that (Vanguard), but that is
not an example of what I once described to you as Multiple Foci. Captain
Marvel (not the Shazam! guy) used to switch places with his host when his
"nega-bands", a pair of bracelets, were struck together. Neither bracelet
alone did diddly. In an old cartoon, two kids find the halves of a broken
ring that, when joined, summon the genie Shazzan. Neither half by itself
had any use. These characters have a single Focus in the form of a *pair*
(one pair) of bracelets, or two halves of a single ring. Vanguard is in
the same situation.
Now, if each component of a multi-part Focus contributed something toward
the overall effect, and could be used separately at proportionaltely
reduced power, you could define that as Multiple Foci; you'd lose something
by taking one away, but not everything. Multiple Foci would therefore be
worth less as a Limitation than a single Focus, as you've indicated.
Vanguard could use the hammer and sickle separately as weapons, as you
said. The hammer also had guidance circuitry that allowed it to return
when thrown. The two together could be used to enhance Vanguard's natural
ability to reflect any form of energy back at the attacker (though at
reduced power); based on the description in the Gamer's Handbook of the
Marvel Universe, this would probably be a Force Field combined with Missle
Deflection/Reflection. That power, however it was constucted, should take
the single Focus Limitation, since the pair of objects represents an
all-or-nothing situation for the character.
Damon
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Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 23:04:19 -0400
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 09:51 PM 6/5/98 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
>Bob Greenwade writes:
>
>> I've never used the Handed rules in Hero4, so it's never come up for me
>> before, but this is arguably the single most broken thing in the whole
>> rulebook. A "Limitation" that actually adds to the utility of a Power,
>> while in no way reducing it? Give me a break!
>
>Yeah, voluntarilly reducing one's DCV by 1 to 3 is in no way a reduction.
>Sure, I understand, now. It makes perfect sense.
For God's sake, Rat: A one-handed sword does NOT give you a shield. It
does NOT give 1-3 DCV levels. This does not constitute an advantage for
the one-handed sword, nor qualify as a limitation for the 1.5 handed sword.
Neither type of sword allows you to fly, should both get a -1/4 limitation
for that?
Joe
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 22:10:33 -0500
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Stainless Steel Rat writes:
>Bob Greenwade writes:
>> I've never used the Handed rules in Hero4, so it's never come up for
me
>> before, but this is arguably the single most broken thing in the whole
>> rulebook. A "Limitation" that actually adds to the utility of a Power,
>> while in no way reducing it? Give me a break!
>Yeah, voluntarilly reducing one's DCV by 1 to 3 is in no way a reduction.
>Sure, I understand, now. It makes perfect sense.
SSR, if you read this at all, read it all the way to the end, because I'm
trying to make a point--but I don't want you to stop having just read the
"flame" part.
Well now. I think I've discovered the flaw in your "reasoning", Rat. You
seem to think that categorical assertions can substitute for logic To wit:
"hand an a half limitation has nothing to do with STR min," and "My entire
argument has been made under the supposition that they are not broken.
Whether or not they are broken is an entirely different issue." And
despite your latest assertion that "I just see a bunch of people ... saying
'you're wrong' with varying degree of insult," you have been consistently
answered with nothing more insulting than 'you're wrong' followed by
evidence to support that claim. Allow me to illustrate the difference.
An example assertion: Handed limitations in general have nothing to do
with DCV.
Evidence and logic: It is true that 2 handed prohibits the use of a
shield, but a shield is simply one of the things that a free hand could be
used for. So weapon handed limitations are definitely about requiring X
hands to hold the weapon. 1.5 handed weapons can be used exactly like 1
handed weapons, OR the exta hand can be put to other uses, including
shields, lowering STR min on the weapons (possibly increasing damage, or
possibly lowering END cost--depending on the hero's STR), hanging on to a
rope bridge, drinking a potion, ad infinitum, ad nauseum. The only thing a
1 handed weapon loses from this list is the Increase Damage/Lower END
option.
Insults (by type): Over the course of this thread, you have consistently
displayed some of the poorest excuses for logic since the Sophists
(historical). The lapses have been so severe, that I wonder whether you
might qualify for help under the Americans with Disabilities Act (nasty),
except that your ability to cunningly twist words out of context (literary)
and focus on insignificant points to attack identifies you as a master
debater (backhanded). But in all likelihood, you know better (prodding),
but are too proud to admit it (moralistic). OTOH, you could simply be a
&%#$ jerk (emotional), who should really be called SSI--where the "I" stand
for idiot, ignoramous, or the favorite "I" word of the insulter's choice
(flippant).
Now, these three are just for the sake of example. But for the record,
I've got doubts about the assertion, I'm pretty comfortable with the
evidence and logic. And if I really believed any of the insults, I
wouldn't have bothered to write this. Rat, you've made your assertions and
no one agrees with them. Either provide evidence or concede defeat.
Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 23:11:36 -0400
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 10:02 PM 6/5/98 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Bob Greenwade writes:
>
>> Mathematically, a hand-and-a-half sword, used one-handed, is identical
>> to a one-handed sword of the same Damage Class in every respect. However,
>> while this is the optimum level for the one-handed sword, this is *less
>> than* the optimum level for the hand-and-a-half sword. This is what I
>> understand you to be saying.
>
>Take a character with a 16 Strength, CV 5. Give him a bastard sword:
>1.5D6K (25AP), 1.5 hands, 13 STR min, and a medium shield: +2 DCV (10AP).
>With one hand on the sword he does 1.5D6K and has a +2 DCV bonus (35AP).
>With two hands on the sword he does 2D6K (30AP) and gets no DCV bonus.
>
>Now, if my math is even vaguely on target, 30 active points is not
>identical to 35 active points. And unless I am completely off, 30 active
>points is less than 35 active points.
>
>So tell me, where is the advantage in *REDUCING* one's ability?
Now, give him a 13 STR and take away the shield. He now has 1.5D6K with
one hand and 1.5D6K with two hands. If my math is good that's 25 active
points and 25 active points. Now hand him a similar sword that he cannot
use 1.5 handed. Let's see that also does 1.5D6K. Why does he get the
limitation on the bastard sword? I've never seen a 3+ foot long sword with
a shield attached to it. Where have you seen them?
Joe
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Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 22:12:29 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> "The point of the power is that the wall WILL [emphasis *NOT* mine --Rat]
> take collateral damage". That is not Clinging, that is a power that does
> damage. Perhaps not much, but enough to be noticeable.
Not quite. That was an assumption that clinging automatically has
this affect, which is giving it a default SFX. I believe that it is
possible, but not automatic. But it is just SFX, and could be granted for
any possible power.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 22:24:07 -0500
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Now that almost everyone agrees that 1.5 handed is broken, could I generate
some interest in my suggested solution? Just a little? I'm reposting the
message, since I haven't even got a private email on this, except that Rat
replied to the original title (which I dare not mention again). Come on
guys, you've all got those 4d6 NND, continuous apathy rays (defense is to
draw attention to yourself) trained on me, and I'm down to my last STUN.
I'll even take insults at this point. Otherwise, I'm liable to start
carrying on a conversation with myself through email. :-)
>As my first post indicated, my inclination was to change 1.5 handed
weapons
>to use the listed STR min as the 2 handed requirement and charge +2 STR
for
>using the weapon 1 handed. That would handle it--or you could change to
+3
>STR like Michael and Len have suggested. Either way, the -!/4 limitation
>would be EARNED.
>However, this rather irritated me (all out of proportion, I admit),
because
>it requires the couple of characters using 1.5 handed weapons in my
>campaign to either increase their STR or switch weapons--And our samurai
>halfling running around with a child's version of a katana shouldn't be
any
>stronger than he already is.
>The halfling (well, the player) and I talked it over and came up with a
>solution. We took someone's suggestion (sorry, lost the message) that the
>-1/4 limitation really belongs on the 1 handed weapons and came up with a
>rational for it. Here goes:
>The default for all weapons is that they can be used with 1.5 handed.
With
>2 hands, the weapons takes X less STR (x=2, if you stick to the standard
>rules). The weapon gets NO limitation for this.
>2 handed weapons get the -1/2 limit, just like they always have. Their
>wielders still cannot use shields, and they also lose out on the
possiblity
>of saving X STR on the minimun when the sweat beads start appearing (END
>runs low :-)
>1 handed weapons get a -1/4 limit for losing the option to use the weapon
>1.5 handed at -X STR. Many blades have a hilt too small to accommodate 2
>hands. A lot of 1 handed swung weapons (smaller axes, maces, flails,
etc.)
>qualify for the 1 handed limit also. The reason is that they derive a
>great deal of their power from the reach and leverage of the blow. As
>anyone who has played tennis knows, the reach and STR of a 1 handed versus
>a 2 handed grip is significant--especially for an object in about the 2 to
>4 foot range. So anyone can grip a 1 handed axe two handed if they want
>to, but they lose a damage class. That leaves clubs, some throwing
>polearms, whips, and lances left of the original 1 handed weapons. Whips
>and lances get the -1/4 limit because of the method of use. (Silly
knight:
> "If I sit sidesaddle, can I hold the lance 2 handed and charge?")
>Arguably, more of the polearms could be 1.5 handed. But I'd rule that any
>polearm short enough to throw is going to be too short to use 2 handed.
>("Sure, you can hold that javelin 2 handed, but the point won't move more
>than a foot from your head. If the villian breathes on you, you can get
>the -2 STR minimum") Ditto for smaller clubs and weapons of opportunity.
I originally said "2 to 4 foot range", but I'm inclined now to believe that
anything about 3 feet or longer can be used effectively 2 handed, provided
the grip accommodates both hands.
>That doesn't handle the issue of halflings, gnomes, and children getting
to
>use some 1 handed weapons 1.5 handed. But I figure that all cancels out
in
>the end, since they also lose a lot of the bigger weapons.
>The big advantage of this scheme is that it leaves the relative mechanics
>in place. Anyone satisfied with the current charts can keep them. Even
>Michael and Len could use this with their changed STR minimums. The only
>thing that changes is my big magical weapon construction chart.
Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 22:35:13 -0500
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Stainless Steel Rat write:
>Take a character with a 16 Strength, CV 5. Give him a bastard sword:
>1.5D6K (25AP), 1.5 hands, 13 STR min, and a medium shield: +2 DCV (10AP).
>With one hand on the sword he does 1.5D6K and has a +2 DCV bonus (35AP).
>With two hands on the sword he does 2D6K (30AP) and gets no DCV bonus.
>Now, if my math is even vaguely on target, 30 active points is not
>identical to 35 active points. And unless I am completely off, 30 active
>points is less than 35 active points.
>So tell me, where is the advantage in *REDUCING* one's ability?
Your math is fine, it's your assumptions that are bogus--or logically
speaking, your premises are unsound. (Given the ability to choose any
premise I want, without regard to actual merit, I can logically "prove"
almost anything. However, when such a habit is taken to it's logical
extreme, you get G.K. Chesterton's definition of insanity--completely
logical, in a very narrow, closed loop.)
List your premises, and I'll consider each one on it merits. Assume them,
and I'll just assume them away. (If you honestly listed your premises for
yourself, I think you'd never send them, because you would see for yourself
that YOU didn't even agree with all of them.)
Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 22:49:56 -0500
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Filksinger writes:
>No, it isn't a power that does damage. Its the logical effects of a power
>which causes stress to be placed upon the wall if you are pulled or
knocked
>free from it.
>If I put my hand against a wall, turn on Clinging, and pull, and my STR is
>great enough, I will damage the wall.
Not necessarily. Logically, there are three possible outcomes, based on
which STR is higher--the STR required to pull the wall down, the Clinging
STR, or the STR necessary to rip the character apart (into Clinging and
non-Clinging pieces.)
I would rule that a character can never use his own Clinging to rip himself
up. So in your example above, you just cling more tightly. Unless of
course you mean your regular "STR is great enough," not your clinging STR.
So Clinging is just "glue". It can only damage something if it is stronger
than two other opposing forces. Thus the original point from Joe that IF
something rips the clinger off the wall, the wall could be damaged.
Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 00:09:56 -0400
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 10:49 PM 6/5/98 -0500, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote:
>Not necessarily. Logically, there are three possible outcomes, based on
>which STR is higher--the STR required to pull the wall down, the Clinging
>STR, or the STR necessary to rip the character apart (into Clinging and
>non-Clinging pieces.)
>
>I would rule that a character can never use his own Clinging to rip himself
>up. So in your example above, you just cling more tightly. Unless of
>course you mean your regular "STR is great enough," not your clinging STR.
>
>So Clinging is just "glue". It can only damage something if it is stronger
>than two other opposing forces. Thus the original point from Joe that IF
>something rips the clinger off the wall, the wall could be damaged.
I realize you are agreeing with me, but... Couldn't a brick with 30 STR
Clinging and 40 normal STR cling to a surface and a very strong chin-up bar
rip up the floor beneath him? (Thus ripping himself up.)
Joe
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Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 22:44:39 -0700
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com>
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com
Organization: None
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Tim R Gilberg writes:
>
> >> Sorry, no, Clinging by itself cannot do damage, period. This might be a
> >> wonky Side Effect kind of thing, but it is not Clinging.
>
> > Says who?
>
> Says the fact that Clinging does not do damage. You want that, buy an
> Energy Blast or Killing attack.
OOoooh! Energy Blast only against paint, only to "damage" things I cling to when
I a ripped off......This is not an attack, it is a side effect of combat. Do
people punched through walls need to by an attack for said wall? Does the 3 Def
3Body fence stop speeding vehicles that don't buy an attack?
All they are saying is when the incredible Hulk finally gets PO'd beyond belief
and rips the Blob's fat ass off the ground taking chunks with it, it is a special
effect and a visual one at that. it has no effect on the ground itself (unless
quicksilver trips in the divots...).
Boy Rat, you sure like to argue semantics don't you?:-)
Chad
And I most likely won't respond to attacks on my person so Nyahh!
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 01:22:27 -0500
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>I realize you are agreeing with me, but... Couldn't a brick with 30 STR
>Clinging and 40 normal STR cling to a surface and a very strong chin-up
bar
>rip up the floor beneath him? (Thus ripping himself up.)
>
> Joe
I wasn't going to go there (too gruesome), but since you asked ...
Need more information, but normally, no. I see at this same as trying to
hold your breath until you suffocate. Cannot do it. At least a normal
human being cannot. They pass out, then start breathing again.
So our theoretical Brick Suicide strains and pulls, it hurts, (he takes
STUN), maybe pulls a muscle (a little BODY). Either way, he either knocks
himself out or impairs himself so much he cannot pull anymore. Besides,
that 40 STR isn't just in his arms. His whole body is fighting to keep his
BODY together.
Unless Clinging was bought persistent, I'd also say that an unconscious
character lost it before ripping apart.
Now if you start talking about, say, a 20 STR Space Marine, wearing 30 STR
magnetic boots, temporarily in "Auto Cling" mode whilst he does something
else, then it's a different story. When the Gruesome Space Horror shoots
out that 40 STR tentacle and grabs him, he better hope the straps on those
boots have less than 20 STR.
Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 08:49:53 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: DNPC appearances
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Bob Greenwade wrote:
> At 08:28 PM 6/5/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
> <clip>
> groups; who had some personal reason for rarely leaving the PC's side (the
> doting mother of a Public-ID hero, to give a comical example, or the
> less-than-ideally-perceptive Hero Guy Fan Club);
One of the best DNPC's I ever seen played was a direct rip off of the
Freakaziod's Fan Boy. The DNPC has 7D6 mind control, always on, no concious
control, Only used to irritate the target. We had a lot of fun with Fan Boy
while he was around. Star Child probaly spent more time saving him from the
rest of the group rather then the villians. Fan Boy died when Doctor Destroyer
dropped a 5 story tenement house on him, I guess you shouldn't tell Doc D.
that his plan is moronic and has been done by a least a dozen other meglomaniacs
before.
> who themselves had some
> low-grade superpower and were Hunted by an organization related to that
> power;
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Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 10:00:06 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
In a message dated 98-06-05 23:34:45 EDT, mdmitche@advicom.net writes:
<< Now that almost everyone agrees that 1.5 handed is broken, could I generate
some interest in my suggested solution? Just a little? I'm reposting the
message, since I haven't even got a private email on this, except that Rat
replied to the original title (which I dare not mention again). Come on
guys, you've all got those 4d6 NND, continuous apathy rays (defense is to
draw attention to yourself) trained on me, and I'm down to my last STUN.
I'll even take insults at this point. Otherwise, I'm liable to start
carrying on a conversation with myself through email. :-) >>
Hmmm. Assuming one considers 1.5-Handed as "broken" and thus "needing a
solution," my first thought is to approach it like this. First, assume that
"one-handed use" of a weapon is our "baseline." So, taking a bastard sword as
our example, let us again assume that it does 1d6+1 K (same as a broad sword,
a one-handed weapon) when used one-handed. That's 20 Active Points, reduced
to 10 Real Points by the "OAF" Limitation (for ease of discussion, I'm leaving
STR Min out of this for now; see below).
Then we figure out what two-handed use gets us -- in short, what you can do
with the other hand. If you want, you can carry a shield, or a lantern, or a
second weapon, or any other small object. However, with this sword you can
use it to swing your sword harder, thus doing more damage: an additional
Damage Class, raising the weapon's damage to 1.5d6 K. You'd buy the
additional damage with the Limitations "OAF" and "Requires Two-Handed Use"
(-1/4, which jibes with Gestures) -- 5 Active Points, 2 Real Points. Thus
the total cost of the weapon is 12 points.
A two-handed weapon would get "OAF" and "Requires Two-Handed Use" on all of
its dice, since all of its damage is dependent on two-handed use. For a great
sword (2d6 K), that equates to 30 Active Points, 12 Real Points.
Factoring in STR Min becomes a little trickier. For the sake of discussion,
let's again assume that, at base level, all weapons are designed to be used
one-handed (if they have no "Handedness" Limitation) or two-handed (if they
take the "Requires Two-Handed Use" Limitation on the entire Power). The basic
STR Min is calculated on the basic damage dice -- 1d6+1 for the bastard sword,
2d6 for the great sword. The "STR Min" Limitation won't apply to any extra
damage that comes from using a second hand, for ease of calculation/use and
because the bought extra damage simulates the effect of doing more damage by
using another hand (i.e., using more STR).
Thus you get:
Bastard Sword: 1d6+1 K (20 Active Points); OAF (-1), STR Min (AcPts/2 = 10)
(-1) (total cost: 7 points) PLUS +1 DC K (5 Active Points); OAF (-1),
Requires Two-Handed Use (-1/4) (total cost: 2 points). Total Cost: 9
points.
Great Sword: 2d6 K (30 Active Points); OAF (-1), STR Min (AcPts/2 = 15) (-1),
Requires Two-handed Use (-1/4). Total Cost: 9 points.
In the event that the "Requires Two-Handed Use" Limitation is applied to the
entire weapon (e.g., a great sword), one of the rules for that Limitation is
that one-handed use of the weapon is possbile, but increases the STR Min by
+3.
If a character wants to use a weapon not intended in any way for two-handed
use (such as a short sword) with two hands, its STR Min is reduced by 3. This
does not apply to 1.5-handed weapons already bought with extra damage
reflecting how they operate when used two-handed.
However, this latter rule doesn't seem entirely fair -- one character pays
extra for two-handed use, the other doesn't (though arguably the first
character is getting a more concrete benefit in several ways -- he definitely
gets extra damage every time, regardless of STR, and can increase the weapon's
damage to higher levels by adding STR). Perhaps another way of approaching
this situation is simply to say that all weapons which are not defined as
always requiring two hands can automatically be used with two hands, at -3 to
the STR Min, unless they take a "Cannot Be Used Two-Handed" (-1/4) Limitation.
Also for consideration: should the Limitation for weapons such as great
swords be "Always Requires Two-Handed Use" (-1/2), thus yielding a greater
Limitation value? If so that would preclude any form of one-handed use, which
doesn't seem entirely "realistic," and which precludes some dramatic story
possibilities (e.g., the character who's temporarily lost the use of an arm
due to a wound and is making one last-ditch attack using his great sword one-
handed).
Thoughts? Comments? Further ideas?
Steve Long
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Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 09:20:53 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
CC: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll: Line of Sight
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Bob Greenwade wrote:
> At 05:33 PM 6/5/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote:
> <snip>
> Actually, what I recall you saying initially was that a TV monitoring
> system could be used to establish Line of Sight with the target. That's an
> entirely different point.
> If you're basically agreeing with what I'm trying to get across, we can
> probably just drop this discussion. I imagine most of the rest of the list
> is getting tired of us talking past each other on this point. :-]
>
agreed.
> <clip>
> I go into this in TUSV, and while most of the previewers have tended to
> disagree (or at least wonder about it), I do mention that a vehicle that
> fills up at least a hex can have a hex on it targeted, with modifiers for
> Velocity, if that would yield a lower DCV than trying to do the shot
> against the ship's straight DCV (including any Hit Location Modifiers).
> (Actually reviewers' comments on this have ranged from just short of,
> "This is ridiculous," to, "How often do you really think this will come
> into play?")
> Anyway, in any event, none of the examples you give above (except maybe
> the Hawkeye; I wasn't quite clear on that) actually appear to use the
> gunners' LOS for targeting, at least from your description. This does
> rather support the "firing blind" point which we appear to have agreed on.
>
The Hawkeye is the Navy's version of the AWACS. Its much smaller (needs to fit on
a CV) then an AWACS and propeller driven but fills much the same roll as the
AWACS.
> >> Would the live camera feed *alone* be enough to target the missiles? No
> >> maps or coordinate entries; just look at what's on the screen, point, and
> >> shoot your target with as much accuracy as if the operator were using just
> >> his eyes?
> >
> >In the case of the Maverick missles on the A-10, that's all that is
> needed. Tell
> >the missile what in it's field of vision is to be targetted and away it
> goes. Due
> >to the low tech of the Maverick (only $80,000 each) and the low tech A-10
> there
> >wasn't a whole lot more to be had. I'm willing to bet money that the
> computer
> >system you are using is more powerful then the entire computer network on the
> >A-10.
>
> How is the missile told this information? A computer network on the
> A-10? That qualifies as something more than just a live camera feed.
The A-10 has no advanced sensors onbroard so the pilots used the Maverick missiles
IR cameras to fly by at night. It also used the camera for targetting the
missile. The video feed from the missile would be displayed to the pilot who
would place a dot on the object he wanted to destroy, when the missile understands
what the target is (ie locks on) the missile canbe fired. The end result of this
(at lease in the gulf war) is usually a destryed 5 million dollar MBT at the cost
of an $80 missile.
After this discussion, I will admit that the IR camera on the Maverick missle most
definitely has a targetting sence added to it IR Clairavoyance. That explains
some of the cost over runs on so many modern missile systems. The DOD didn't know
that they needed to add a targetting sence to there exturnal sencing equipment ;-)
PS: Is ther any chance I could get a look at TUSV, I've done a lot of vehicle
designs and combats. Including all the Starblazer Ships and the Robotech mechs (I
had way to much time on my hands while in the Peace Corps). My email address is
rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
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Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 07:28:51 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Odd Transform Effects (was Clinging/Climbing)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 01:45 AM 6/6/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
>Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
>Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing
>> The same thing that is wrong with a Transformation Attack: living bodies to
>> corpses. It might be a valid effect, but that is not the power.
[snip]
> And living bodies to corpses is just fine as a power, though a bit
>too expensive.
It does create an interesting dynamic, however; and I can think of one
example in fiction where a Cumulative Major Transform: Living Body to
Corpse would be the best way to represent the device -- especially since
the victim of the device wasn't *all* dead, he just just *mostly* dead. :-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 07:33:46 -0700
To: "Champions News Group" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: drugs
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 10:05 AM 6/6/1998 -0700, David W. Salmon wrote:
>How about to make the drug really dangerous and give the heroes more of a
>motive to stop it other than "its a drug, it must be stopped" ... add the
>side effect of an invisible power effects BODY drain. People who take it all
>of a sudden just drop over dead after a while.
Yeah, about a 4-5d6 BODY Drain, IPE, Gradual Effect (1 week) would make
for a really scary drug -- or just 2d6, but the stuff is highly
addictive....
---
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Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 07:40:24 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Gadget Belts ... ? about MP
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 09:38 PM 6/5/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>Bob Greenwade writes:
>
>> Now, theoretically it would be possible to have two Focus Limitations
>> on the same Power; for this to happen, it would have to be possible to
>> take away one Focus without taking away the other, and both would have to
>> be necessary to use the Power.
>
>Umm... I think the best bonus you get is the worst case, because while
>there may be multiple foci (lowercase "f") for the power's special effects,
>they still qualifies as a single Focus (capital "F") as far as game
>mechanics are concerned.
That all depends. Take the example I cited of the Soviet hero (or
antihero) with a hammer and sickle as his dual foci. Opponent 1 could take
his hammer, and Opponent 2 could take his sickle. If one succeeds, then
the Soviet guy still has the other weapon and can use it like a normal
weapon, but he can't use the Powers granted by the foci. If both succeed,
he can't use either, but because each weapon is held by a different person
neither can use the combined abilities. If one of the opponents passes his
weapon to the other, then the one with both Foci could use the powers of
the combined unit.
The "dual Focus" effect would certainly be an unusual case, and not
appropriate to gadget belts on the whole, but could be done occasionally.
>The prototypical "utility belt" is really an OHID, not a Focus, even though
>the gadgets themselves are Foci.
As with powered armor, it depends on how you want to play it. On the
Adam West TV show, Batman's utility belt was taken from him on several
occasions, and it's happened to the modern animated version a few times as
well. Both are cases of the Focus Limitation -- and certainly *not* OIHID,
since even without the belt he was still Batman.
---
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Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 07:50:17 -0700
To: "Champions News Group" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Gadget Belts ... ? about MP
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 09:39 PM 6/5/1998 -0500, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
>At 05:49 PM 6/5/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>> Now, theoretically it would be possible to have two Focus Limitations on
>>the same Power; for this to happen, it would have to be possible to take
>>away one Focus without taking away the other, and both would have to be
>>necessary to use the Power. (I think there was a Russian character in the
>>Marvel Universe who had powers that only worked when he struck his hammer
>>and sickle together; take either away, and he can't use those powers,
>>though each could be used individually as a normal weapon. This would be
>>one example.) I don't have much in the way of mechanics worked out for
>>this (most of that work will probably be done if and when TUG gets
>>approved), but what I'm working with is that every Focus after the first
>>and largest gets half value.
>
>Bob, there is a Marvel Universe character like that (Vanguard), but that is
>not an example of what I once described to you as Multiple Foci. Captain
>Marvel (not the Shazam! guy) used to switch places with his host when his
>"nega-bands", a pair of bracelets, were struck together. Neither bracelet
>alone did diddly. In an old cartoon, two kids find the halves of a broken
>ring that, when joined, summon the genie Shazzan. Neither half by itself
>had any use. These characters have a single Focus in the form of a *pair*
>(one pair) of bracelets, or two halves of a single ring. Vanguard is in
>the same situation.
The original Captain Marvel's nega-bands would be a single Focus
mechanically; there would be no reason for an opponent to take just one
without the other.
In Vanguard's case, either the hammer or sickle could be used separately
as a normal weapon (though I don't think he ever did that when I was
reading comics), and since both of them are Accessible it would be a much
simpler matter to take one than to take both at the same time. If one is
taken and not the other, then the power of the two combined cannot be used.
(I don't recall specifically if an opponent taking both the hammer and the
sickle could use their combined powers, or if Vanguard is a mutant or
mutate who focuses his Powers through the two.)
As for the kids who summon Shazzam (and I do remember that Hanna-Barbera
show quite well; thank you for reminding me of it), that's a pretty clear
case of separate Foci, since the kids did get separated from each other on
the show (several times IIRC) and could not summon the genie. One wore one
ring, and the other wore the other, but the two had to be combined to work
(and they'd work even if a villain got the rings from them and used both of
the himself).
>Now, if each component of a multi-part Focus contributed something toward
>the overall effect, and could be used separately at proportionaltely
>reduced power, you could define that as Multiple Foci; you'd lose something
>by taking one away, but not everything. Multiple Foci would therefore be
>worth less as a Limitation than a single Focus, as you've indicated.
This actually looks more like it would work as a Partially Limited power.
>Vanguard could use the hammer and sickle separately as weapons, as you
>said. The hammer also had guidance circuitry that allowed it to return
>when thrown. The two together could be used to enhance Vanguard's natural
>ability to reflect any form of energy back at the attacker (though at
>reduced power); based on the description in the Gamer's Handbook of the
>Marvel Universe, this would probably be a Force Field combined with Missle
>Deflection/Reflection. That power, however it was constucted, should take
>the single Focus Limitation, since the pair of objects represents an
>all-or-nothing situation for the character.
What defines the Focus (or Foci) isn't the dynamic of the Power that
it's used with; it's the Limitation that the Power suffers. Either the
hammer or sickle could be taken away separately, so it would count (in my
mind anyway) as separate Foci.
---
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Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 09:58:34 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
To: "David W. Salmon" <dwsalmon@earthlink.net>
CC: Champions News Group <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: drugs
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
David W. Salmon wrote:
> How about to make the drug really dangerous and give the heroes more of a
> motive to stop it other than "its a drug, it must be stopped" ... add the
> side effect of an invisible power effects BODY drain. People who take it all
> of a sudden just drop over dead after a while.
>
If the drug has no advantage (some kind of "High") then people aren't going to
take it, especially if it kills rather quickly. If you want the drug to kill
people then try 1/2D6 Major Transformation (to corpse), Cumlaitve, Invisible.
This gives a good simulation of a slow steady death. Acouple thing you may want
to consider is that most drug dealers are out to turn a profit and chem labs and
supplies are not cheap. So drugs either has to have some effect that the user
likes and is willing to pay for or the drug has to be forced onto the user by
someone else. Now if you want you team to track down a maniac who goes around
killing people with a time released drug, then there are plenty of poisons out
there to choose from. I tend to prefer the dilema of either tracking down the
bad guy creating the stuff of saving the city from the effects of the struff.
Both types of scenerios can lead to a good time.
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Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 11:03:27 -0400
From: boaters <boaters@mindspring.com>
To: champs mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: drugs
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Palace of Dwarves wrote:
> What I am pondering is how the drug is made. Having been
> inspired by a few movis, I have decided that the drug is actually made
> from the adrenalin glands of humans. Sick, yes I know. But fun.
> So I am trying to find a way to take bodies, or more to the point, people
> disappearing. Make the heroes think for a change.
>
>
I think since the idea of the drug is to speed up the body (in a fashion) that
perhaps a 1/2 die of body drain as a side effect would be appropriate. Move the
recover rate down to a month or something like that and let people with
regeneration know that it is taking them longer to regenerate this damage. (if
the hero uses the drug.)
Just an idea.
Darin
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Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 08:08:47 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: PRIMUS Sourcebook Announcement/ Shameless Self Promotion
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 07:01 PM 6/5/1998 -0700, Shelley Chrystal Mactyre wrote:
>Greetings, all --
>
>Just wanted to update everyone on the status of the PRIMUS Sourcebook.
>It's been done for a while, I've done the editorial corrections that were
>requested, and I'm now putting it into the format Hero desires it to be in
>for putting it onto disk (those character sheets are what's taking so long,
>and that wacky full time job isn't helping much, either). We're talking
>the beginning of September for a finished, ready-to-order product, I think.
I'd call this good news! I'm certainly going to be spending my money on
it!
>I now return you to your regularly scheduled rules discussions -- thanks
>for letting me take up your bandwidth.
Speaking for myself, and probably more than a few others, this is a
welcome change; not so much because we're tired of the rules discussions,
as because we want to see *more stuff* from Hero Games! :-]
---
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Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 11:12:25 -0400
To: SteveL1979@aol.com, champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 10:00 AM 6/6/98 EDT, SteveL1979@aol.com wrote:
[snip]
>Thus you get:
>
>Bastard Sword: 1d6+1 K (20 Active Points); OAF (-1), STR Min (AcPts/2 = 10)
>(-1) (total cost: 7 points) PLUS +1 DC K (5 Active Points); OAF (-1),
>Requires Two-Handed Use (-1/4) (total cost: 2 points). Total Cost: 9
>points.
"Requires Two-Handed Use" should be worded differently. Based on what you
describe below, a character can use a RTHU weapon one-handed with +3 to the
STR Min. The Bastard Sword writeup has a STR Min of 10. Thus an 18 STR
character does 2D6K with the above write up: one-handed! Likewise a 15 STR
character does 2D6K two-handed since the STR Min is still only 10. When
adding the DC to the Bastard Sword you need to increase the STR Min.
>Great Sword: 2d6 K (30 Active Points); OAF (-1), STR Min (AcPts/2 = 15)
(-1),
>Requires Two-handed Use (-1/4). Total Cost: 9 points.
Now, of course, if my above analysis is correct, you have two two-handed
weapons, one costs 9 points, does 2D6K, and has a STR Min of 15 and the
other costs 9 points and does 2D6K with a STR of 15 (Min is actually 10).
An 18 STR user of the Bastard Sword still does 2D6K one-handed, and an 18
STR user of the Great Sword does 2D6K one-handed. For a 10 STR user, both
weapons do 1.5D6K two-handed and 1D6+1K one-handed. So the only real
difference is that the Great Sword has a maximum damage of 4D6K, while the
Bastard Sword can only do 2.5D6K one-handed and 3D6+1K two-handed. Maybe
this does work. (I was trying to find the flaws, hopefully writing all of
that out will help others.) The only flaw I can find is that there is not
must difference between the Bastard Sword and the Great Sword unless they
are wielded by SuperSTR swordsmen. Not much of a flaw.
> In the event that the "Requires Two-Handed Use" Limitation is applied to
the
>entire weapon (e.g., a great sword), one of the rules for that Limitation is
>that one-handed use of the weapon is possbile, but increases the STR Min by
>+3.
> If a character wants to use a weapon not intended in any way for two-handed
>use (such as a short sword) with two hands, its STR Min is reduced by 3.
This
>does not apply to 1.5-handed weapons already bought with extra damage
>reflecting how they operate when used two-handed.
That last sentense need to be VERY clearly noted. Originally, I was going
to mess that up in this post. :-)
> However, this latter rule doesn't seem entirely fair -- one character pays
>extra for two-handed use, the other doesn't (though arguably the first
>character is getting a more concrete benefit in several ways -- he definitely
>gets extra damage every time, regardless of STR, and can increase the
weapon's
>damage to higher levels by adding STR). Perhaps another way of approaching
>this situation is simply to say that all weapons which are not defined as
>always requiring two hands can automatically be used with two hands, at -3 to
>the STR Min, unless they take a "Cannot Be Used Two-Handed" (-1/4)
Limitation.
I think this construct is cleaner, though not very often used. I've seen
many movies where someone grabs a knife with two hands to defend herself.
If a knife would not take that limitation, what would? Brass knuckles, a
cestus. What else?
> Also for consideration: should the Limitation for weapons such as great
>swords be "Always Requires Two-Handed Use" (-1/2), thus yielding a greater
>Limitation value? If so that would preclude any form of one-handed use,
which
>doesn't seem entirely "realistic," and which precludes some dramatic story
>possibilities (e.g., the character who's temporarily lost the use of an arm
>due to a wound and is making one last-ditch attack using his great sword one-
>handed).
How would this rules apply to larger/smaller than man-sized people? How
many levels of growth allow you to wield a Great Sword with one hand? How
many levels of shrinking make single-handed use of a short sword impossible
at 10 STR? 20 STR? 30 STR? Perhaps weapons should have a -0 Limitation,
assumes man-sized user. Then, describe the effects of Growth and Shrinking
on weapons with that limitation.
Personally, I would only put "Always Requires Two-Handed Use" on those
weapon you MUST have two hands to use, like a bow, reloading a crossbow.
> Thoughts? Comments? Further ideas?
Most people in this discussion do not like to the listed STR mins. Perhaps
the normal STR min should be AP/3 instead of AP/2. Although, the mins are
already lower for the above weapons, maybe this is not necessary.
>Steve Long
Thanks for jumping in, Steve.
Joe
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Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 08:12:35 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 09:51 PM 6/5/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Bob Greenwade writes:
>
>> I've never used the Handed rules in Hero4, so it's never come up for me
>> before, but this is arguably the single most broken thing in the whole
>> rulebook. A "Limitation" that actually adds to the utility of a Power,
>> while in no way reducing it? Give me a break!
>
>Yeah, voluntarilly reducing one's DCV by 1 to 3 is in no way a reduction.
>Sure, I understand, now. It makes perfect sense.
What was that second word -- "voluntarily"?
Doesn't that mean that the character *volunteers* to do it?
As in, he has a choice?
Meaning that he can decide to forego that *option* and just stick with
the sword in one-handed mode. And for fewer points than if he didn't have
that *choice* in the first place.
---
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Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 08:15:28 -0700
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 10:24 PM 6/5/1998 -0500, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote:
>Now that almost everyone agrees that 1.5 handed is broken, could I generate
>some interest in my suggested solution? Just a little? I'm reposting the
>message, since I haven't even got a private email on this, except that Rat
>replied to the original title (which I dare not mention again). Come on
>guys, you've all got those 4d6 NND, continuous apathy rays (defense is to
>draw attention to yourself) trained on me, and I'm down to my last STUN.
>I'll even take insults at this point. Otherwise, I'm liable to start
>carrying on a conversation with myself through email. :-)
I wasn't quite clear on this (even reading through your post)... were
you the one who was suggesting that hand-and-a-half be the default, and the
-1/4 Limitation be imposed to be either one- or two-handed only?
That method is the one I'd favor.
---
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Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 11:18:35 -0400
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: drugs
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 09:58 AM 6/6/98 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote:
>If you want the drug to kill
>people then try 1/2D6 Major Transformation (to corpse), Cumlaitve, Invisible.
>This gives a good simulation of a slow steady death.
How does this simulate a slow steady death? It's invisible. Thus the
person is just walking around fine one moment, a corpse the next. Use a
BODY drain if you want a "slow steady death". Besides, what is the common
effect which will reverse the Transformation, corpse back to living. Since
corpses do not heal, you need to provide one. (I won't argue that
Transformation, living to corpse is not allowed since there is better way
to kill someone so you should not use Transformation. Rat will probably
chime in loudly on that one. :-)
Joe
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Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 08:24:15 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 10:00 AM 6/6/1998 EDT, SteveL1979@aol.com wrote:
> Hmmm. Assuming one considers 1.5-Handed as "broken" and thus "needing a
>solution," my first thought is to approach it like this....
The solution you propose looks like a good one to me, Steve. While I
have generally supported the "1.5 hand is default" method, this doesn't
really work smoothly with guns and most other ranged weapons (unless some
rule is worked out for 1.5 handed ranged weapons). What you propose does
work smoothly; it can just be foregone for guns.
> Also for consideration: should the Limitation for weapons such as great
>swords be "Always Requires Two-Handed Use" (-1/2), thus yielding a greater
>Limitation value? If so that would preclude any form of one-handed use,
which
>doesn't seem entirely "realistic," and which precludes some dramatic story
>possibilities (e.g., the character who's temporarily lost the use of an arm
>due to a wound and is making one last-ditch attack using his great sword one-
>handed).
I agree with you that this should be -1/4 for the basic level; I think
I'd make the -1/2 level an option, though, for those cases where the sword
is just plain too big and/or unweildy to use with one hand *at all* (or
absolutely requires both hands for some other reason, like a high-tech
weapon with two-handed controls).
---
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Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 08:38:40 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 10:02 PM 6/5/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>Bob Greenwade writes:
>
>> Mathematically, a hand-and-a-half sword, used one-handed, is identical
>> to a one-handed sword of the same Damage Class in every respect. However,
>> while this is the optimum level for the one-handed sword, this is *less
>> than* the optimum level for the hand-and-a-half sword. This is what I
>> understand you to be saying.
>
>Take a character with a 16 Strength, CV 5. Give him a bastard sword:
>1.5D6K (25AP), 1.5 hands, 13 STR min, and a medium shield: +2 DCV (10AP).
>With one hand on the sword he does 1.5D6K and has a +2 DCV bonus (35AP).
>With two hands on the sword he does 2D6K (30AP) and gets no DCV bonus.
>
>Now, if my math is even vaguely on target, 30 active points is not
>identical to 35 active points. And unless I am completely off, 30 active
>points is less than 35 active points.
>
>So tell me, where is the advantage in *REDUCING* one's ability?
If it's not advantageous, then don't do it. The bastard sword isn't
limited in any way. There's nothing preventing him from using it just like
a one-handed sword, ever. He's *always* capable of doing so. I don't
think you have any disagreement with that; you've never even tried to say
otherwise.
If the bastard sword user finds himself in a situation where he's better
off using the sword two-handed -- he loses the shield, or the opponent is
tough but clumsy -- then he still has the option to use it two-handed.
Using your example, let's see what your character is capable of doing in
rough terms (that is, sans Limitations), compared to an identical character
with a one-handed sword, First, the one-handed version:
AP Power
25 1.5d6 HKA (sword)
10 +2 DCV (shield)
-----
35 Total
Now, the bastard version:
35 Multipower, 35 point Pool
3 u - 1.5d6 HKA (one-handed)
3 u - 2d6 HKA (two-handed)
3 u - +2 DCV (shield)
-----
44 Total
This is *functionally identical* to what the bastard sword user is
capable of doing (Focus, STR Min, and such Limitations aside). It's about
the same cost increase as a +1/4 Advantage, for which this rule provides a
-1/4 Limitation.
And what of the bastard sword that's always used one-handed so a shield
can be always used? Since you just showed how using a shield and foregoing
the extra damage is more advantageous than vice versa, you've just
disproven your own assertion that it's not using the weapon to its optimum
level.
---
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: "David W. Salmon" <dwsalmon@earthlink.net&>
"rossrannells@worldnet.att.net" <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Cc: "Champions News Group" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Sat, 06 Jun 98 16:08:09
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: drugs
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Sat, 06 Jun 1998 09:58:34 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote:
>David W. Salmon wrote:
>
>> How about to make the drug really dangerous and give the heroes more of a
>> motive to stop it other than "its a drug, it must be stopped" ... add the
>> side effect of an invisible power effects BODY drain. People who take it all
>> of a sudden just drop over dead after a while.
>>
>
>If the drug has no advantage (some kind of "High") then people aren't going to
>take it, especially if it kills rather quickly. If you want the drug to kill
>people then try 1/2D6 Major Transformation (to corpse), Cumlaitve, Invisible.
>This gives a good simulation of a slow steady death. Acouple thing you may want
>to consider is that most drug dealers are out to turn a profit and chem labs and
>supplies are not cheap. So drugs either has to have some effect that the user
>likes and is willing to pay for or the drug has to be forced onto the user by
>someone else. Now if you want you team to track down a maniac who goes around
>killing people with a time released drug, then there are plenty of poisons out
>there to choose from. I tend to prefer the dilema of either tracking down the
>bad guy creating the stuff of saving the city from the effects of the struff.
>Both types of scenerios can lead to a good time.
Remember the film 'Outland'?
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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Date: Tuesday, April 27, 1999 03:57 PM