Week Ending June 13, 1998
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Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 02:11:17 +1000
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Mad Hamish <h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 01:32 PM 6/5/98 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>Bob Greenwade writes:
>
>> A character with a hand-and-a-half weapon may use a shield any time he
>> wants. He just sacrifices the option of using the weapon two-handed by
>> using the shield, and this option he's sacrificing does not exist in the
>> first place for a one-handed weapon.
>
>His hand-and-a-half weapon can do more damage than his one-handed weapon.
>By opting to use a sheild, he does one-handed weapon damage, not two-handed
>weapon damage.
>
Your argument appears to be that the hand and a half sword is limited by
this _but_ unless there is something I'm missing you can create a 1.5 hand
weapon which is just as effective as a one handed weapon when it is used
one handed.
So how is the 1.5 handed weapon justified in being _cheaper_ than the 1
handed weapon?
The weapon is just as effective when used one handed and provides the
_option_ being used two handed and doing more damage, yes the character
cannot use a shield while attacking two handed but there is no
justification for the hand and a half weapon being cheaper than a one
handed weapon.
>[...]
>
>> I'm for the suggestion someone had (I think it was Tim) of making
>> hand-and-a-half the default mode, and letting "One-handed" and Two-Handed"
>> -1/4 Limitations.
>
>The one reason I have against that is an historical one. Hand-and-a-half
>weapons are an aberation, not the norm, so they should not be considered to
>be the baseline.
>
Historically human weapons have normally been focuses so that should be the
default with rare exceptions. Does that mean that the base in Hero should
be focus with innate as an advantage?
It's the same argument.
****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
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Hamish Laws
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org&>
"Palace of Dwarves" <pod@avalon.net>
Date: Sat, 06 Jun 98 16:12:51
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: drugs
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Fri, 5 Jun 1998 14:06:23 -0500 (CDT), Palace of Dwarves wrote:
>I've decided to try and launch a new plot in my current campaign.
>The plot that i want to start deals with drugs; more specifically,
>a new drug.
I presume you mean narcotic, not drug. But why not a 'normal' drug? How
about a version of (to choose a topical drug) Viagra that after
prolonged use causes offspring to be mutated? A sleeping pill that
causes a Jekyl/Hyde conversion...
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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From: "David W. Salmon" <dwsalmon@earthlink.net>
To: "Champions News Group" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: drugs
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 10:05:21 -0700
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How about to make the drug really dangerous and give the heroes more of a
motive to stop it other than "its a drug, it must be stopped" ... add the
side effect of an invisible power effects BODY drain. People who take it all
of a sudden just drop over dead after a while.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
To: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Friday, June 05, 1998 4:03 PM
Subject: Re: drugs
>
>
>Palace of Dwarves wrote:
>
>> I've decided to try and launch a new plot in my current campaign.
>> The plot that i want to start deals with drugs; more specifically,
>> a new drug.
>> I don't have a actually name for it yet, but my working name
>> for it is 'Lightning'. When someone takes the drug, they experience
>> increased strength and dexterity. Only problem is that it has a side
effect.
>> Now what that side effect will be, I haven't decided upon. Could be
>> a bloody nose, could be that they take body from the drug. I don't know.
>> That's the drug.
>> What I am pondering is how the drug is made. Having been
>> inspired by a few movis, I have decided that the drug is actually made
>> from the adrenalin glands of humans. Sick, yes I know. But fun.
>> So I am trying to find a way to take bodies, or more to the point, people
>> disappearing. Make the heroes think for a change.
>>
>> Any and all input is appreciated.
>>
>> I am figuring that the drug would be made using Xd6 of Aid.
>
> With say 4 Dice to each STR, DEX, and SPD with OAF, IND, 1 turn dealy,
1-1 hour
>charge, IIF, side effects (30 points). The cost of the drug would be 9
points.
>A good side effect associated with adreniline would be some sort of
Psychosis. I
>played and run such scenarios and they can be alot of fun and excitement.
When a
>horde of psychotic physically enthanced people (DNPCs are great for this)
running
>loose. The heroes have a hard time stopping the destruction and trying to
track
>down the source of the drug. The most fun I've had with this scenario is
when
>the drug gave a 30 point Ego Elemental Control (Mental attack, Mind
Control,
>Telepathy, and 20 Str TK) with the side effect being -13 inteligence, -2
Ego, and
>Extreme Psycotic. The drug had all the above limitations with the addition
of No
>Concious Control. The best part of the scenario was watching the supers
try and
>gently take out the psychotic normals who have no defenses speak of. A lot
of
>disads can be brought into play as well and requiring some good roll
playing and
>creative thought.
>
>
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From: SteveL1979@aol.com
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Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 13:46:01 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
In a message dated 98-06-06 11:12:42 EDT, why@superlink.net writes:
<< >Bastard Sword: 1d6+1 K (20 Active Points); OAF (-1), STR Min (AcPts/2 =
10)
>(-1) (total cost: 7 points) PLUS +1 DC K (5 Active Points); OAF (-1),
>Requires Two-Handed Use (-1/4) (total cost: 2 points). Total Cost: 9
>points.
<snip; see below> The Bastard Sword writeup has a STR Min of 10. Thus an 18
STR character does 2D6K with the above write up: one-handed! Likewise a 15
STR
character does 2D6K two-handed since the STR Min is still only 10. When
adding the DC to the Bastard Sword you need to increase the STR Min.
>Great Sword: 2d6 K (30 Active Points); OAF (-1), STR Min (AcPts/2 = 15)
(-1),
>Requires Two-handed Use (-1/4). Total Cost: 9 points.
Now, of course, if my above analysis is correct, you have two two-handed
weapons, one costs 9 points, does 2D6K, and has a STR Min of 15 and the
other costs 9 points and does 2D6K with a STR of 15 (Min is actually 10).
An 18 STR user of the Bastard Sword still does 2D6K one-handed, and an 18
STR user of the Great Sword does 2D6K one-handed. For a 10 STR user, both
weapons do 1.5D6K two-handed and 1D6+1K one-handed. So the only real
difference is that the Great Sword has a maximum damage of 4D6K, while the
Bastard Sword can only do 2.5D6K one-handed and 3D6+1K two-handed. Maybe
this does work. (I was trying to find the flaws, hopefully writing all of
that out will help others.) The only flaw I can find is that there is not
must difference between the Bastard Sword and the Great Sword unless they
are wielded by SuperSTR swordsmen. Not much of a flaw. >>
This gets into the area I sort of bypassed in the interest of clarity, but
perhaps shouldn't have -- how does STR Min affect the weapon when you're
mucking around with constructions that add damage that has different
Limitations and whatnot? My initial reaction is to say that when you
construct a weapon such as the bastard sword above, you can add STR to the
basic damage (1d6+1 K) but not to the additional, Limited, damage;
furthermore, the standard "-3 STR Min when using a one-handed weapon two-
handed" reduction doesn't apply (as noted in my first post). So, that way,
the bastard sword (STR Min 10) when used two-handed by a 15 STR character
would do 1.5d6 one-handed, or 2d6 two-handed (the +1 DC from two-handed use
adds to the 1.5d6, but is not itself otherwise affected by STR).
The two-handed sword just does a flat 2d6 used two-handed, but STR can be
added to that, if your STR exceeds 15. So, a 20 STR character would do 2d6+1
with the two-handed sword, or the same 2d6+1 with the bastard sword used two-
handed. The only advantage the two-handed sword offers there is a greater
capacity to have its damage bumped up by martial arts and Combat Skill Levels
and such.
OTOH, this isn't really any different from the current status quo -- the 18
STR fighter does the same damage with a great sword as with a bastard sword
used two-handed. It's just a harder to explain, more confusing construct --
not necessarily a good thing. :|
<< Perhaps another way of approaching
>this situation is simply to say that all weapons which are not defined as
>always requiring two hands can automatically be used with two hands, at -3
to
>the STR Min, unless they take a "Cannot Be Used Two-Handed" (-1/4)
Limitation.
I think this construct is cleaner, though not very often used. I've seen
many movies where someone grabs a knife with two hands to defend herself.
If a knife would not take that limitation, what would? Brass knuckles, a
cestus. What else? >>
I know of plenty of instances where a short weapon was grasped with two
hands so as to *block* with it better, but that's just cinematic. The
question for us, I think, is whether using two hands will allow you to
*increase damage* (by reducing the STR Min, and thus getting more effect from
STR). I don't really envision things like short swords and daggers working
this way, so they'd take the "Cannot Be Used Two-Handed" Limitation. OTOH,
perhaps one can envision a two-handed plunge-the-dagger-into-the-evil-
overlord's-back kind of maneuver, where extra damage would be feasible. Hmmm.
<<How would this rules apply to larger/smaller than man-sized people? How
many levels of growth allow you to wield a Great Sword with one hand? How
many levels of shrinking make single-handed use of a short sword impossible
at 10 STR? 20 STR? 30 STR? Perhaps weapons should have a -0 Limitation,
assumes man-sized user. Then, describe the effects of Growth and Shrinking
on weapons with that limitation. >>
That's a good question. It's difficult to solve, though, without some rule
that establishes "Size Classes" for people and weapons. For example, a
Halfling (Size Class 1) can only use Size Class 1 weapons one-handed, Size 2
weapons two-handed, and Size 3 and above weapons not at all. Otherwise, to my
mind it's a sort of "GM wings it" call. I will definitely have to put
something like this in THE ULTIMATE WEAPON, even if it's just an optional
rule.
<< "Requires Two-Handed Use" should be worded differently. Based on what you
describe below, a character can use a RTHU weapon one-handed with +3 to the
STR Min.
Personally, I would only put "Always Requires Two-Handed Use" on those
weapon you MUST have two hands to use, like a bow, reloading a crossbow. >>
Hmmm. Increased accuracy in Limitation names is always a good idea; thanx
for the suggestion. Perhaps RTHU should be simply "Two-Handed"; when the
weapon must *always* use two hands, as in the examples you suggest, it's worth
more or noted in the weapon's description somewhere.
Steve Long
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Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 13:01:23 -0500
To: "Champions News Group" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Gadget Belts ... ? about MP
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> The original Captain Marvel's nega-bands would be a single Focus
>mechanically; there would be no reason for an opponent to take just one
>without the other.
Certainly not if the opponent wanted to try to use them, but maybe if he
understood that depriving Rick Jones of even one of them would prevent CM
from being summoned.
> In Vanguard's case, either the hammer or sickle could be used separately
>as a normal weapon (though I don't think he ever did that when I was
>reading comics), and since both of them are Accessible it would be a much
>simpler matter to take one than to take both at the same time. If one is
>taken and not the other, then the power of the two combined cannot be used.
> (I don't recall specifically if an opponent taking both the hammer and the
>sickle could use their combined powers, or if Vanguard is a mutant or
>mutate who focuses his Powers through the two.)
No, the hammer and sickle together merely enhance Vanguard's own force
field/energy reflector. An opponent would only be able to use them as
melee weapons. This still sounds like a single Focus to me. The hammer is
a Focus for the [presumably] Normal damage it does as a weapon, the sickle
is a Focus for the [presumably] Killing damage it does as a weapon, and the
pair of them together are a Focus for the added points of power Vanguard
gets when using them to add to his natural ability.
I think in order to treat multiple focus objects as a Multiple Focus, you'd
have to have a situation where losing one of them only costs you part of a
given Power; say if you can Reflect incoming attacks at their source if you
have both, but can only Deflect attacks if you have one or the other.
The fact that the hammer and sickle each have their own functions, in
addition to and separate from the force field enhancement, may be confusing
the issue. What if they were made of plastic, and had no function other
than the force field enhancement. Would you feel differently then?
> As for the kids who summon Shazzam (and I do remember that Hanna-Barbera
>show quite well; thank you for reminding me of it), that's a pretty clear
>case of separate Foci, since the kids did get separated from each other on
>the show (several times IIRC) and could not summon the genie. One wore one
>ring, and the other wore the other, but the two had to be combined to work
>(and they'd work even if a villain got the rings from them and used both of
>the himself).
Yes, the ring in that case was Independent. The fact that Vanguard's Focus
is not Independent doesn't matter, though. The important element is that
the only thing the hammer and sickle are designed to do *together* -- act
as lens to focus and enhance Vanguard's natural ability -- will not
function at all if you only have one of the two pieces. Just like the ring
of Shazzan or CM's nega-bands.
>>Now, if each component of a multi-part Focus contributed something toward
>>the overall effect, and could be used separately at proportionaltely
>>reduced power, you could define that as Multiple Foci; you'd lose something
>>by taking one away, but not everything. Multiple Foci would therefore be
>>worth less as a Limitation than a single Focus, as you've indicated.
>
> This actually looks more like it would work as a Partially Limited power.
In a sense it is, though as descibed above it's a Partially Limited
Limitation :)
Multiple Foci isn't supposed to be a separate Limitation, just a
situational adjustment (defined when the Power is built) to an existing
Focus limitation. The Focus questions then become: Obvious or Inobvious?
Accessible or Inaccessible? Mobility? Expendable? Breakable or
Unbreakable? *and* Single or Multiple? For a standard Single Focus,
including anything that comes in two or more pieces which cannot be used
separately, no adjustment. For Multiple Foci, defined as two or more
pieces which can be used separately, at reduced effect, figure the value of
the Limitation normally and adjust by +1/4 or +1/2 (GM call, depending on
the Power involved and how far reduced the effect is without all the pieces
together).
> What defines the Focus (or Foci) isn't the dynamic of the Power that
>it's used with; it's the Limitation that the Power suffers. Either the
>hammer or sickle could be taken away separately, so it would count (in my
>mind anyway) as separate Foci.
If the argument here is that it's easier to deprive Vanguard of his power
enhancement by virtue of having two targets for a grab -- get either one
and the power is gone -- that just seems like a function of Accessibility,
and should be worth more of a Limitation, not less. You could choose to
rule that the availability of several items like this makes the collective
Focus, um, Readily Accessible (-3/4, or maybe bonuses to the Grab attempt
if Vanguard can't hang on with both hands?), where each single piece would
be merely Accessible (-1/2).
Damon
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Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 13:18:00 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Odd Transform Effects (was Clinging/Climbing)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> It does create an interesting dynamic, however; and I can think of one
> example in fiction where a Cumulative Major Transform: Living Body to
> Corpse would be the best way to represent the device -- especially since
> the victim of the device wasn't *all* dead, he just just *mostly* dead. :-]
That one came to mind, though I'm wondering if a BOD drain
wouldn't be better.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 13:39:47 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
To: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: drugs
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Joe Mucchiello wrote:
> At 09:58 AM 6/6/98 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote:
> >If you want the drug to kill
> >people then try 1/2D6 Major Transformation (to corpse), Cumlaitve, Invisible.
> >This gives a good simulation of a slow steady death.
>
> How does this simulate a slow steady death? It's invisible. Thus the
> person is just walking around fine one moment, a corpse the next. Use a
> BODY drain if you want a "slow steady death". Besides, what is the common
> effect which will reverse the Transformation, corpse back to living. Since
> corpses do not heal, you need to provide one. (I won't argue that
> Transformation, living to corpse is not allowed since there is better way
> to kill someone so you should not use Transformation. Rat will probably
> chime in loudly on that one. :-)
>
> Joe
The death is slow and steady since it takes about 10 doses to kill a normal
person, no one said anything about the wether the user would get noticably sick,
weaker, etc. The faster they take the doses the fasterthey die, the slower they
take it the slower they die. The common effect that reverses the drug depends on
the FX of the drug. In one scenerio I used a rare snake venom, the user was the
antivenom. I try to gear the cure so that one of the PC alter ego can do the
research to find the cure. This complicates matters since it splits the group
into three peices (usually), one trying to track down the bad guys, one to try and
stop the random destruction and one trying to find a cure for those effected.
Through a couple of agents for the villian to hamper the heros efferts, an
effected DNPC or two, some screeming politicion, the police, Primus, SAT and UNTIL
argueing over who has jurisdition over the situation and a few sensationalist
journalists and you heros will be in for more headaches then they can handle just
trying to save the city from the rest of the people trying to save the city from
the scourge of this drug and its side effects.
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Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 14:45:04 -0400
To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: drugs
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 01:39 PM 6/6/98 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote:
> The death is slow and steady since it takes about 10 doses to kill a normal
>person, no one said anything about the wether the user would get noticably
sick,
>weaker, etc. The faster they take the doses the fasterthey die, the
slower they
>take it the slower they die.
Most euphamisms about slow deaths involve wasting away or pain or
something. Not 10 doses which you never notice and then thud. Steady
implies that you go from healthy to dead in even gradations, not suddenly.
Joe
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Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 15:03:13 -0400
To: SteveL1979@aol.com, champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 01:46 PM 6/6/98 EDT, SteveL1979@aol.com wrote:
> I know of plenty of instances where a short weapon was grasped with two
>hands so as to *block* with it better, but that's just cinematic. The
>question for us, I think, is whether using two hands will allow you to
>*increase damage* (by reducing the STR Min, and thus getting more effect from
>STR). I don't really envision things like short swords and daggers working
>this way, so they'd take the "Cannot Be Used Two-Handed" Limitation. OTOH,
>perhaps one can envision a two-handed plunge-the-dagger-into-the-evil-
>overlord's-back kind of maneuver, where extra damage would be feasible.
Hmmm.
How about "Two-Handed Bonus to STR Min Does Not Apply"? I don't like
verbage which says you cannot use a dagger two-handed. (Course, my version
is really wordy. Could be worse: "One-Handed Weapon Used Two-Handed Bonus
to STR Min Does Not Apply".)
> <<How would this rules apply to larger/smaller than man-sized people? How
> many levels of growth allow you to wield a Great Sword with one hand? How
> many levels of shrinking make single-handed use of a short sword impossible
> at 10 STR? 20 STR? 30 STR? Perhaps weapons should have a -0 Limitation,
> assumes man-sized user. Then, describe the effects of Growth and Shrinking
> on weapons with that limitation. >>
>
> That's a good question. It's difficult to solve, though, without some rule
>that establishes "Size Classes" for people and weapons. For example, a
>Halfling (Size Class 1) can only use Size Class 1 weapons one-handed, Size 2
>weapons two-handed, and Size 3 and above weapons not at all. Otherwise,
to my
>mind it's a sort of "GM wings it" call. I will definitely have to put
>something like this in THE ULTIMATE WEAPON, even if it's just an optional
>rule.
The Ultimate Weapon? Really? Of course, a Halfling with 40 STR might be
able to wield an 18' Pike (Class 3 or 4, I assume). And with one hand tied
behind his back :-)
Joe
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From: SteveL1979@aol.com
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Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 15:43:25 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
In a message dated 98-06-06 15:03:30 EDT, why@superlink.net writes:
<<The Ultimate Weapon? Really?>>
Yes; it's on my list of Really Neat Books I Can't Wait To Write after 5th
Ed., Dark Champions 2nd Ed., and The Ultimate Skill. My file for it has about
tripled in size since this debate on hand-and-a-half weapons started. :)
<<Of course, a Halfling with 40 STR might be able to wield an 18' Pike (Class
3 or 4, I assume). And with one hand tied behind his back :-) >>
One of the issues that would play into a character-vs.-weapon size system
would be an answer to that question -- *could* a 40 STR halfling wield an 18'
pike one-handed? Even if his STR would allow it, is just one of his hands big
enough to grasp it properly? Regardless of STR, a halfling couldn't use some
weapons one-handed, I'd think, on the purely practical point of what he can
get his hands around. And, regardless of his STR, could he properly balance
himself while trying to use it?
Steve Long
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Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 13:19:21 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Odd Transform Effects (was Clinging/Climbing)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 06:19 PM 6/6/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
>Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
>Subject: Re: Odd Transform Effects (was Clinging/Climbing)
>
>> It does create an interesting dynamic, however; and I can think of one
>> example in fiction where a Cumulative Major Transform: Living Body to
>> Corpse would be the best way to represent the device -- especially since
>> the victim of the device wasn't *all* dead, he just just *mostly* dead.
:-]
>
> That one came to mind, though I'm wondering if a BOD drain
>wouldn't be better.
In this case, it gives a "cleaner" mechanical effect for the Miracle
Pill, which would become either a Dispel or SFX. (Though I suppose it
could be considered a BODY Aid with Gradual Effect, if the Machine is a
BODY Drain.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 13:32:37 -0700
To: "Champions News Group" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Gadget Belts ... ? about MP
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 01:01 PM 6/6/1998 -0500, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
>I think in order to treat multiple focus objects as a Multiple Focus, you'd
>have to have a situation where losing one of them only costs you part of a
>given Power; say if you can Reflect incoming attacks at their source if you
>have both, but can only Deflect attacks if you have one or the other.
I frankly don't see why this would be the case.
>The fact that the hammer and sickle each have their own functions, in
>addition to and separate from the force field enhancement, may be confusing
>the issue. What if they were made of plastic, and had no function other
>than the force field enhancement. Would you feel differently then?
No. They are still Accessible, each independent of the other.
Look at it this way. Suppose a villain gets Vanguard's hammer from him.
He's then unable to use the enhanced version of his power. While he's
trying to get the hammer back, someone else gets the sickle from him. He
then gets the hammer back, but he still can't use the enhanced power
because he doesn't have the sickle. He needs both, hence the increased
Limitation.
>> As for the kids who summon Shazzam (and I do remember that Hanna-Barbera
>>show quite well; thank you for reminding me of it), that's a pretty clear
>>case of separate Foci, since the kids did get separated from each other on
>>the show (several times IIRC) and could not summon the genie. One wore one
>>ring, and the other wore the other, but the two had to be combined to work
>>(and they'd work even if a villain got the rings from them and used both of
>>the himself).
>
>Yes, the ring in that case was Independent. The fact that Vanguard's Focus
>is not Independent doesn't matter, though. The important element is that
>the only thing the hammer and sickle are designed to do *together* -- act
>as lens to focus and enhance Vanguard's natural ability -- will not
>function at all if you only have one of the two pieces. Just like the ring
>of Shazzan or CM's nega-bands.
I don't think the Independent Limitation has anything to do with it, and
I don't see why you thought I was referring to it. I was talking about the
same situation all along, the case of multiple separate Foci. In the case
of the kids who could summon Shazzam, the two Foci often got separated from
each other (partially because they were held by different individuals,
though that's a separate issue).
>>>Now, if each component of a multi-part Focus contributed something toward
>>>the overall effect, and could be used separately at proportionaltely
>>>reduced power, you could define that as Multiple Foci; you'd lose something
>>>by taking one away, but not everything. Multiple Foci would therefore be
>>>worth less as a Limitation than a single Focus, as you've indicated.
>>
>> This actually looks more like it would work as a Partially Limited power.
>
>In a sense it is, though as descibed above it's a Partially Limited
>Limitation :)
>Multiple Foci isn't supposed to be a separate Limitation, just a
>situational adjustment (defined when the Power is built) to an existing
>Focus limitation. The Focus questions then become: Obvious or Inobvious?
>Accessible or Inaccessible? Mobility? Expendable? Breakable or
>Unbreakable? *and* Single or Multiple? For a standard Single Focus,
>including anything that comes in two or more pieces which cannot be used
>separately, no adjustment. For Multiple Foci, defined as two or more
>pieces which can be used separately, at reduced effect, figure the value of
>the Limitation normally and adjust by +1/4 or +1/2 (GM call, depending on
>the Power involved and how far reduced the effect is without all the pieces
>together).
Why on Earth would needing multiple foci to use a Power be worth *less
of a Limitation that just needing one? If you have more than one item that
is needed to perform a function, that's *more* limiting, not less. I've
already described how both Vanguard and Shazzam's keepers would have or
have had (respectively) extra trouble from needing two items to perform the
function.
>> What defines the Focus (or Foci) isn't the dynamic of the Power that
>>it's used with; it's the Limitation that the Power suffers. Either the
>>hammer or sickle could be taken away separately, so it would count (in my
>>mind anyway) as separate Foci.
>
>If the argument here is that it's easier to deprive Vanguard of his power
>enhancement by virtue of having two targets for a grab -- get either one
>and the power is gone -- that just seems like a function of Accessibility,
>and should be worth more of a Limitation, not less. You could choose to
>rule that the availability of several items like this makes the collective
>Focus, um, Readily Accessible (-3/4, or maybe bonuses to the Grab attempt
>if Vanguard can't hang on with both hands?), where each single piece would
>be merely Accessible (-1/2).
An Obvious, Accessible Focus is worth -1.
With my suggested rule, needing two OAFs (as in Vanguard's case) would
be -1 1/2, while the two rings of Shazzam, if taken as OIFs, would be -3/4.
The reason successive Focus Limitations are worth half value is that
there's always a choice of which Focus to take away, and taking any one of
them will deprive the character of the Power. But multiple ones would be
worth more, since it's easier to keep them away from the character.
---
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Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 20:54:30 +0000
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Clinging and Knockback
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Guy Hoyle wrote:
>
> Waitaminnit. I think what's being described here is as follows. The
> Clingster is walking up the side of the Blaxter Building when Galagula the
> Galactic Giant appears behind him and attempts to pluck the Clingful
> Clinguist off the side of the building. Galagula has a STR of 150, more
> than sufficient to overcome the Clingster's mere Clinging STR of 150.
> However, since the Blaxter Building is mere steel-and-concrete, and the
> Clingster is pushing to his utmost to resist Galagula, won't a chunk of the
> building come with him when the World-Devouring Wonder plucks the Capable
> Crusader from the Building That Gets Demolished Every Other Issue?
>
> Guy
>
> PS A side-note: Could a guy with Clinging attempt to reach out and grap a
> fleeing felon, using his Clinging STR to pull his opponent back?
I'll have to agree with Rat in that there is nothing inherent in Clinging that
says an object that somebody is clinging to gets damaged from them peeling
bits off. This doesn't mean that a GM could rule special effects and the
like, but it probably won't take more than a portion of the surface off.
This could get somewhat complicated:
Mr. Static with his 50 STR clinging is on the side of a 3/3 wall. Say Mr.
Kinda Strong tries to yank Static off with 40 STR. Since that damage would
blow a chunk
in the wall would Mr. Static come off with a part of the wall?
Say the special effect of a character's clinging is that he's extending a
field over the entire building? Would someone then rip the entire building
out of the
ground if they tried to pluck the character off?
So my feeling is, the rules don't make a provision for it so it's up to the GM
and the player to figure out what happens due to special effect.
Answer to Guy: You wouldn't have to grab around any particular part of the
fleeing felon, you could just stick your clinging on them. (Depending on
special effects of course)
Tanget: Who uses the knockback rules as written? I just looked them over and
noticed that my group and I have been using either 3rd edition or a modified
version. We don't enforce the 1/2 DCV. People with flight who resist don't
have the all or nothing rule.
Clarifying examples:
1. Brick resists with 75 STR
Gets hit with 13" knockback
Goes nowhere
2. Flyer resists with 15" flight
Gets hit with 13" knockback
Goes nowhere
3. Brick resists with 75 STR
Gets hit with 16" knockback
Goes 16"
4. Flyer resists with 15" flight
Gets hit with 16" knockback
Goes 1"
As the rules state it looks like the flyer would be knocked back just as far.
(If we ignore the extra 1d6, for the purposes of this exericise)
-Mark Lemming
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Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 14:08:48 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 03:43 PM 6/6/1998 EDT, SteveL1979@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 98-06-06 15:03:30 EDT, why@superlink.net writes:
>
><<The Ultimate Weapon? Really?>>
>
> Yes; it's on my list of Really Neat Books I Can't Wait To Write after 5th
>Ed., Dark Champions 2nd Ed., and The Ultimate Skill. My file for it has
about
>tripled in size since this debate on hand-and-a-half weapons started. :)
>
><<Of course, a Halfling with 40 STR might be able to wield an 18' Pike (Class
>3 or 4, I assume). And with one hand tied behind his back :-) >>
>
> One of the issues that would play into a character-vs.-weapon size system
>would be an answer to that question -- *could* a 40 STR halfling wield an 18'
>pike one-handed? Even if his STR would allow it, is just one of his hands
big
>enough to grasp it properly? Regardless of STR, a halfling couldn't use some
>weapons one-handed, I'd think, on the purely practical point of what he can
>get his hands around. And, regardless of his STR, could he properly balance
>himself while trying to use it?
The question that comes to my mind is: How does one determine the size
of a weapon? In the Sourcebook in TUSV I make some arbitrary listings of
weapon size for vehicles, mostly as the seed for an optional rule that I
couldn't quite figure out how to do (and based on that, the weapon size
listings should probably be deleted unless I can come up with something
concrete).
Just offhand, I'm thinking weapon size should be based on Active Points.
For my online article dealing with weapon mass I "borrowed" the table from
Star Hero, and I think that said table is a good starting point, if nothing
else. But what would constitute Size 1, Size 2, and Size 3? One Size per
15 AP?
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 20:13:32 -0500
To: "Champions News Group" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Gadget Belts ... ? about MP
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 01:32 PM 6/6/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 01:01 PM 6/6/1998 -0500, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
>>I think in order to treat multiple focus objects as a Multiple Focus, you'd
>>have to have a situation where losing one of them only costs you part of a
>>given Power; say if you can Reflect incoming attacks at their source if you
>>have both, but can only Deflect attacks if you have one or the other.
>
> I frankly don't see why this would be the case.
Ah, at last I see! Excuse me for being so slow; you and I are not
describing the same thing. The above paragraph should have said "...to
treat multiple focus objects as a Multiple Focus *in the way I had
described that option to you previously*, you'd have to have..."
You are describing a power which operates through more than one object, but
which becomes completely unavailable to the character if any one of those
objects is taken away. Yes, you are quite right, this obviously seems a
greater limitation than only having a single object that the character
might have taken away. As I said, it makes the collective Focus even more
accessible that a single Accessible Focus would be.
> Why on Earth would needing multiple foci to use a Power be worth *less*
>of a Limitation than just needing one?
It wouldn't be, *if* the character is completely deprived of the power by
being deprived of any one of the focus objects. That's not what I was
describing when I originally pitched Multiple Foci to you. I was
describing a situation where losing one focus object costs the character
*some* of his Power, not all of it. Say Field Agent has a pair of
bracelets, each of which can generate a 10 ED Force Field if used
separately. But if used together, a resonance is set up, creating positive
feedback that creates his Multiphasic Shield, a 25 ED Field that is greater
than the sum of its parts. If either bracelet is taken away or damaged in
combat, Field Agent still has the other one.
Yes, this can be built as a Partially Limited Power, but look what the
description of the Limitation would be for the upper end of the Power:
"Must have both bracelets." Well, "Must have bracelet" is really nothing
more than a Focus Limitation, so "Must have both bracelets", applied to the
upper 5 ED of the Multiphasic Shield, is just a Partially Limited Power
with both levels of the power relying on two different uses of the same
Focus (single bracelet vs. a pair of bracelets). What I was suggesting
with Multiple Foci is, for situations like this one, integrating that
specific application of a Partially Limited Power into the Focus Limitation
chart as a downward adjustment to the final value of Focus.
Multiple Foci wouldn't be the first Hero option that could count as an
Advantage or a Limitation, depending on how it was applied.
Damon
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|****************** Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs *******************|
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Damon & Peni's homepages: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3401/ |
| Children's Books -- Dolls -- X-Files -- Pulp Magazines |
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Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 13:38:15 +1000
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Mad Hamish <h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Gadget Belts
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 11:40 AM 6/4/98 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>What are people's thoughts and designing and building a 'Batman utility
>belt'?
I think it largely comes down to what the character concept is as to how to
design it.
>
>Should it be bought as a gadget pool?
It depends, if you want it to have something for all occasions then allow
it to be a gadget pool which can be changed in the field.
IF you want it to be adaptable to all situations but only after preparation
limit it to only being changed back at base, (which incidently is something
I think Iron Man would have, he's produced a fair number of suit
modifications which were only used once)
>A Mulitpower?
This is most useable for a utility belt which has a limited number of
widely used tools, I'd say that batman probably has that, Batarang,
rebreather,....
>Or each item seperatly?
You could do it that way but it's almost not a utility belt anymore.
>
>If a Multipower, what is the opinion of slapping an foci lim on the
>Mulitpower pool itself?
I'd give the utility belt an OIF -1/4
> Should one put an OIF lim on the pool and then an
>OAF lim on each slot?
it depends on what the slot is, there could be some slots where it's no
more than an OIF itself.
>
>Most of thse I've seen done as an OIF multipower (by both Aaron Allston
>and Steve Long). You thoughts would be most welcome.
****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************
Mad Hamish
Hamish Laws
h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au
h_laws@tassie.net.au
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Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 21:12:51 -0700
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <scm@mactyre.net>
Subject: Re: PRIMUS Sourcebook Announcement/ Shameless Self Promotion
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 08:08 AM 6/6/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> I'd call this good news! I'm certainly going to be spending my money on
>it!
Cool! Words I like to hear. =) I also don't know if it was clear from my
earlier post, but you'll be able to preview some of the artwork actually
from the project, done by Dale McKee. I know the cover art is done, and
he's working on portraits of Silver Avengers right now.
>>I now return you to your regularly scheduled rules discussions -- thanks
>>for letting me take up your bandwidth.
>
> Speaking for myself, and probably more than a few others, this is a
>welcome change; not so much because we're tired of the rules discussions,
>as because we want to see *more stuff* from Hero Games! :-]
As do I -- speaking of which, I know you and Michael S both have projects
coming soon as well. What are the status of those, guys? I've been so
busy I haven't kept up with much of the gossip -- any new projects in the
works that I may not have heard of? I do know that Stan West is finishing
up the new CLOWN manuscript and is set to work on TU Battle Suit or Powered
Armor (or is it the other way around?)
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
http://www.mactyre.net
A flung stone has always been a fool's favorite means of putting himself on
a level with the wise.
-- Edgar Pangborn
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Gadget Belts ... ? about MP
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 07 Jun 1998 00:41:04 -0400
Lines: 35
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Bob Greenwade writes:
> That all depends. Take the example I cited of the Soviet hero (or
> antihero) with a hammer and sickle as his dual foci. Opponent 1 could take
> his hammer, and Opponent 2 could take his sickle. If one succeeds, then
> the Soviet guy still has the other weapon and can use it like a normal
> weapon, but he can't use the Powers granted by the foci.
Okay, I am with you so far.
> If both succeed, he can't use either, but because each weapon is held by
> a different person neither can use the combined abilities.
Okay... but that is not so much a Focus limitation as a case of Limited
Power: must have both foci (lower case "f") to use the power. My gut
reaction is that this limitation is worth no more than half the value of
the Focus limitation the power has.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds.
\
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From: Lisa Hartjes <Hartjes@TCBS.net>
Reply-To: "Hartjes@TCBS.net" <Hartjes@TCBS.net>
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: PRIMUS Sourcebook Announcement/ Shameless Self Promotion
Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 01:20:41 -0400
Organization: Tri-City Business Services
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
<<As do I -- speaking of which, I know you and Michael S both have projects
coming soon as well. What are the status of those, guys? I've been so
busy I haven't kept up with much of the gossip -- any new projects in the
works that I may not have heard of? I do know that Stan West is finishing
up the new CLOWN manuscript and is set to work on TU Battle Suit or Powered
Armor (or is it the other way around?) >>
Well Shelly, since you were asking..... My proposal for a book was
accepted recently. Called "The Kandris Seal", it will be a sourcebook
about two mystical organizations: the Thaumaturgia and the Keepers of the
Broken Circle. Those of you familiar with the Quantum Universe web pages
may recognize these names. My business partner Niclin McNeice will be
doing the artwork for the book.
Lisa Hartjes
beren@unforgettable.com
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Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 23:26:50 -0700
To: "Hartjes@TCBS.net" <Hartjes@TCBS.net>
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <scm@mactyre.net>
Subject: RE: PRIMUS Sourcebook Announcement/ Shameless Self Promotion
Cc: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 01:20 AM 6/7/98 -0400, Lisa Hartjes wrote:
><<As do I -- speaking of which, I know you and Michael S both have projects
>coming soon as well. What are the status of those, guys? I've been so
>busy I haven't kept up with much of the gossip -- any new projects in the
>works that I may not have heard of? I do know that Stan West is finishing
>up the new CLOWN manuscript and is set to work on TU Battle Suit or Powered
>Armor (or is it the other way around?) >>
>
>Well Shelly, since you were asking..... My proposal for a book was
>accepted recently. Called "The Kandris Seal", it will be a sourcebook
>about two mystical organizations: the Thaumaturgia and the Keepers of the
>Broken Circle. Those of you familiar with the Quantum Universe web pages
>may recognize these names. My business partner Niclin McNeice will be
>doing the artwork for the book.
Cool -- Go WiG!
(I think it's awfully cool to have two Women in Gaming alumni working on
Hero projects). =)
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
http://www.mactyre.net
A flung stone has always been a fool's favorite means of putting himself on
a level with the wise.
-- Edgar Pangborn
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Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 00:35:03 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Lighter Characters (was Poll: Champions Dialogue #2.)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> Robert A West writes:
>
> > 2) An equivalence of 2" Movement = + 1 STR is given on HSR p. 142. The
> > more favorable ratio was based on comparison with the cost of Shrinking.
>
> Since I get lambasted for it, this is an optional rule, and it is
Agreed that it is an option, but it seems to be among the "core" set of
optional rules that nearly everyone seems to use: along with Dive for
Cover, Sweep and Pulling a Punch. Moreover, the rule is not necessary to
use flight to partially lift oneself -- lifting oneself is what Flight
*does*.
> restricted to Flight and Superleap. And this optional use of Flight or
Well, the instant discussion is about using Flight, so this restriction
is really not relevant.
> Superleap adds to Strength only for lifting or pushing things; it does not
> replace Strength.
My proposal is to use Flight to lift or push the character possessing the
power. This is what Flight *does*.
>
> > 3) As stated in the part of the post that you ignored, the Limitation
> > does not rely on an equivalence between Flight and STR.
>
> It is being used like Strength. Therefore there must be an equivalence.
No it is not being used like Strength. STR cannot accomplish what this
limited Flight power accomplishes, and the limited Flight cannot
accomplish anything important that STR accomplishes. In fact, I believe
the game effects of the two powers to be completely disjoint sets.
Anything that I am proposing to do with Limited Flight can also be done
with unlimited Flight. The difference is in what you cannot do (such as
use the Flight to move) and what you must do that you would normally not
choose to do (such as use the Flight to increase the distance that you
are thrown by the enemy Brick).
I don't understand what your objection is at this point, Rat.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
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Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 06:05:38 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Gadget Belts ... ? about MP
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 12:41 AM 6/7/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>Bob Greenwade writes:
>
>> That all depends. Take the example I cited of the Soviet hero (or
>> antihero) with a hammer and sickle as his dual foci. Opponent 1 could take
>> his hammer, and Opponent 2 could take his sickle. If one succeeds, then
>> the Soviet guy still has the other weapon and can use it like a normal
>> weapon, but he can't use the Powers granted by the foci.
>
>Okay, I am with you so far.
>
>> If both succeed, he can't use either, but because each weapon is held by
>> a different person neither can use the combined abilities.
>
>Okay... but that is not so much a Focus limitation as a case of Limited
>Power: must have both foci (lower case "f") to use the power. My gut
>reaction is that this limitation is worth no more than half the value of
>the Focus limitation the power has.
This comes out mechanically the same as what I was proposing; it's just
a matter of whether it's defined as an expansion of the Focus Limitation or
an additional Limited Power. I prefer the former, because I think it's
better to expand on the existing categories where possible rather than just
dump anything new into Limited Power, which basically is the
"Miscellaneous" category.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 06:10:41 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: PRIMUS Sourcebook Announcement/ Shameless Self Promotion
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 09:12 PM 6/6/1998 -0700, Shelley Chrystal Mactyre wrote:
>At 08:08 AM 6/6/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>> I'd call this good news! I'm certainly going to be spending my money on
>>it!
>
>Cool! Words I like to hear. =) I also don't know if it was clear from my
>earlier post, but you'll be able to preview some of the artwork actually
>from the project, done by Dale McKee. I know the cover art is done, and
>he's working on portraits of Silver Avengers right now.
I'm looking forward to seeing it.
Will the site then become an "Official PRIMUS Website" then? ;-]
>As do I -- speaking of which, I know you and Michael S both have projects
>coming soon as well. What are the status of those, guys? I've been so
>busy I haven't kept up with much of the gossip -- any new projects in the
>works that I may not have heard of? I do know that Stan West is finishing
>up the new CLOWN manuscript and is set to work on TU Battle Suit or Powered
>Armor (or is it the other way around?)
For myself, my understanding is that I should be getting my manuscript
back from the Hero Guys within the next week or so (though I'm not holding
that as a promise, since it is, after all, pretty massive).
Since Michael was right behind me in sending in his manuscript, I'd
guess that Kazei 5 is in pretty close to the same situation.
Other than Stan's stuff, I understand that The Ultimate Speedster is in
good shape for being released sometime this summer or early fall. That's
just a general sense I get, of course; nothing's really been announced
about it.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 12:51:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: PRIMUS Sourcebook Announcement/ Shameless Self Promotion
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Sun, 7 Jun 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> >As do I -- speaking of which, I know you and Michael S both have projects
> >coming soon as well. What are the status of those, guys? I've been so
> >busy I haven't kept up with much of the gossip -- any new projects in the
> >works that I may not have heard of? I do know that Stan West is finishing
> >up the new CLOWN manuscript and is set to work on TU Battle Suit or Powered
> >Armor (or is it the other way around?)
>
> For myself, my understanding is that I should be getting my manuscript
> back from the Hero Guys within the next week or so (though I'm not holding
> that as a promise, since it is, after all, pretty massive).
> Since Michael was right behind me in sending in his manuscript, I'd
> guess that Kazei 5 is in pretty close to the same situation.
I have been in communication with my newly appinted editor. So far little
has been done other than his tating the contents look good. Apparently I
need to mail him some PC Word version of the documents <sigh> and after I
did all this work to set it up for the Mac machines at Hero. Anyway, I
intend to call him tonight (Sunday) to get more info.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 13:46:34 -0500
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Bob Greenwade writes:
> I wasn't quite clear on this (even reading through your post)... were
>you the one who was suggesting that hand-and-a-half be the default, and
the
>-1/4 Limitation be imposed to be either one- or two-handed only?
> That method is the one I'd favor.
---
I cannot claim the original suggestion, though I cannot remember who
suggested it either. I think it was just a comment in passing, though. So
maybe he or she doesn't remember either. In any case, I took the idea and
ran with it.
This is what I suggest in a nutshell. Hand and a half should be the
default. It should work exactly as it does now, except that it does not
get the -1/4 1.5 Handed limitation. 2 handed should continue to get the
-1/2 limitation, because taking away that second hand takes a ways a
variety of options (with suggestions from everyone involved in this
thread). 1 handed weapons get a -1/4 limitation, because the only option
they lose is the ability to use the weapon with two hands for extra damage
or reduced END.
The rest of my post is a rationalization for the above and an exploration
of which weapons should be 1.5 handed. In short, you only get the 1 Handed
Only -1/4 if the weapon cannot gain any benefit from being used two handed.
Sure, you can grip a dagger with 2 hands if you want, but the my take is
that the decreased leverage and the awkward grip cancels out any possible
benefit.
Now for another monkey wrench: To my admittedly limited experience (all
academic, non practical) of weapons, I don't see a second hand on a bastard
sword or spear adding to the damage at all, regardless of STR. I mean, a 2
handed sword gets its awesome damage because it is a long and heavy blade.
A bastard sword doesn't get any longer or heavier when used 2 handed. In
fact, it gets a little shorter, because the arm reach is restricted. What
the blade does get is a little easier to control. To me that sounds like a
+1 OCV. (I'm assuming that the +1 OCV on some of the bigger blades was
originally given because of control and reach, not because they are lighter
than, say, scimitars.)
Lastly, if the above hold, that would suggest a Normally 2 Handed (N2H)
limitation for -1/4. This would go on something that could be used with 1
hand in desperation, but would take a -1 OCV because it is just a little
too awkward to control that way. I'm not sure what would qualify.
Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 11:59:10 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <scm@mactyre.net>
Subject: Steve Long Chat
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Steve Long will be in #herochat on Dal.Net Sunday, July 12, at 2 PM PST.
He'll be discussing the 5th edition of Champions, as well as answering your
questions.
The #herochat webpage is at http://www.mactyre.net/scm/Herochat.html, and
you can find transcripts of older chats there, including chats with Bruce
Harlick, Steve Long, and Aaron Allston. Hope to see you there!
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
http://www.mactyre.net
A flung stone has always been a fool's favorite means of putting himself on
a level with the wise.
-- Edgar Pangborn
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 14:35:22 -0500
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>Most people in this discussion do not like to the listed STR mins.
Perhaps
>the normal STR min should be AP/3 instead of AP/2. Although, the mins are
>already lower for the above weapons, maybe this is not necessary.
Well, I don't like the interaction of the relative value of STR and the
cost of STR, combined with reduced STR minimums. O.K. that's obscure, let
me offer an example:
Michael says that the STR minimums as listed are too high, citing that
whole units of Swiss Halbediers were not running around with every man
roughly 3 times as strong as the average population (I.e. 18 vs 10 STR).
I'd have to agree with that. OTOH, reducing the STR minimums is be
necessity going to compress the range of possible weapon STR minimums--same
as using AP/3 instead of AP/2. With STR only costing 1 CP each point,
there is just no reason for every character not to buy "just a little extra
STR to get that next larger weapon." With only 3 STR points separating
most weapons, it's bad enough.
I think the problem is because STR is usually monolithic. An 18 STR
warrior can also lift, punch, etc. like some proto-typical Conan. However,
couldn't a unit that trained like the Swiss have 13 to 15 STR, with the
balance of the STR min only for wielding polearms? Or maybe suppose the
possibility of buying combat skill levels, Only To Reduce STR min -2.
Couple that with increased cost of STR, and I think it might work.
BTW, our campaign uses escalating cost of characteristics, instead of
Heroic maximums. For example, anyone can buy STR as high as they want,
but the first 5 points costs 1 CP each, the second 5 cost 2 CP each, the
next 5 cost 3 CP each, and so on. The reasoning here is that anyone that
care to exert themselves at strenous activity (like adventuring) can get to
15 STR easily. After that, it takes specific work. Couple that with
different racical starting points (10 for humans, 8 for elves, 13 for
dwarves, etc.) and the races have more differences.
Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 14:48:22 -0500
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>In a message dated 98-06-06 15:03:30 EDT, why@superlink.net writes:
><<The Ultimate Weapon? Really?>>
> Yes; it's on my list of Really Neat Books I Can't Wait To Write after
5th
>Ed., Dark Champions 2nd Ed., and The Ultimate Skill. My file for it has
about
>tripled in size since this debate on hand-and-a-half weapons started. :)
You're welcome :-) Now that sounds like a book I could really use. I know
some folks have taken the attitude that the points works out so close, that
it doesn't matter. But when your campaign world has magical metals (metals
with CP in them) than can be unlocked with the right skills and magic, then
you have to have a consistent and logical way to build weapons. If all I
was worried about was the occasional starting character wanting to spend
point on a weapon, I would just make my best GM decision and move
on--especially since I don't let players do that. Also, we only apply the
STR min to the base weapon. All "magical" bonuses to damage or OCV get
bought separately. However, when calculating the cost, we keep hundreths
of a point in all calculations, add them at the end, THEN round. In
effect, if a weapon gets a bit of a price break in its normal version, then
the magical version will cost a little more (relative to a different
weapon).
><<Of course, a Halfling with 40 STR might be able to wield an 18' Pike
(Class
>3 or 4, I assume). And with one hand tied behind his back :-) >>
> One of the issues that would play into a character-vs.-weapon size
system
>would be an answer to that question -- *could* a 40 STR halfling wield an
18'
>pike one-handed? Even if his STR would allow it, is just one of his hands
big
>enough to grasp it properly? Regardless of STR, a halfling couldn't use
some
>weapons one-handed, I'd think, on the purely practical point of what he
can
>get his hands around. And, regardless of his STR, could he properly
balance
>himself while trying to use it?
Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 14:57:03 -0500
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> OTOH, this isn't really any different from the current status quo -- the
18
>STR fighter does the same damage with a great sword as with a bastard
sword
>used two-handed. It's just a harder to explain, more confusing construct
--
>not necessarily a good thing. :|
But it can be explained, as you just demonstated. And it can be explained
in a manner other than "we mostly used the mechanics, but fudged a bit when
the mechanics produced something completely ridiculous--not that we
bothered to explain the exceptions or even note them." If I wanted to just
abide by whatever the designer said and never question anything, then I'd
stick with AD&D.
True, your construct is not much different for base weapons. However, it's
potentially different for build your own, expand the list, monkey with the
numbers, campaigns. I don't care how long the design is, as long as it is
consistent, logical, explained, and will allow for a list of weapons. To
me, the current system is complicated because it is not consistent or
logical or explained. But then, that is another thread :-)
Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 16:00:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Sun, 7 Jun 1998, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote:
> Now for another monkey wrench: To my admittedly limited experience (all
> academic, non practical) of weapons, I don't see a second hand on a bastard
> sword or spear adding to the damage at all, regardless of STR. I mean, a 2
> handed sword gets its awesome damage because it is a long and heavy blade.
> A bastard sword doesn't get any longer or heavier when used 2 handed. In
A bastard sword benefits from greater leverage when used two-handed. My
SCA bastard sword is about 4' long (maybe 4' 6") with an 18" hilt. If I
tried to swing it one handed, it would not balance well (mainly 'cause I
don't have the STR Min to use it that way). Gripping it two handed allows
me to move it faster and with more power.
> fact, it gets a little shorter, because the arm reach is restricted. What
> the blade does get is a little easier to control.
Your reach is not restricted because you are not glued to the ground. If
fighting with a bastard sword and shield, then your sword shoulder and arm
is kept back to keep it behind your shield. If fighting two-handed, you
are more square, to increase mobility. It evens out in the end.
> To me that sounds like a
> +1 OCV. (I'm assuming that the +1 OCV on some of the bigger blades was
> originally given because of control and reach, not because they are lighter
> than, say, scimitars.)
I presume the +1 OCV is for balance. IMO junk the +1 OCV unless the
weapon is question is light, balanced and quick (ie. rapier of jien).
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
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Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 16:07:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Handcuffs
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Well, here is the final write-up for handcuffs. Thanks for all the
suggestions.
13 Handcuffs: 5 DEF, 1 BODY (-1/2), Transparent to Attack (+1/2),
Entangle can be negated by a sucessful Lockpicking roll (-1/4), No
Range (-1/2), Target must be effective DCV of 0 to attach (-2),
Can only Entangle two paired limbs (-1/2),
4 Recoverable Charges (-1/2), OAF (-1)
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
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Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 16:16:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Sun, 7 Jun 1998, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote:
> Michael says that the STR minimums as listed are too high, citing that
> whole units of Swiss Halbediers were not running around with every man
> roughly 3 times as strong as the average population (I.e. 18 vs 10 STR).
> I'd have to agree with that. OTOH, reducing the STR minimums is be
> necessity going to compress the range of possible weapon STR minimums--same
> as using AP/3 instead of AP/2. With STR only costing 1 CP each point,
> there is just no reason for every character not to buy "just a little extra
> STR to get that next larger weapon." With only 3 STR points separating
> most weapons, it's bad enough.
Guess what? The STR needed to use different weapons isn't all that
different. If you are strong enough to use a halberd properly, than you
are strong enough to lift a pike, or a poll-axe or a bill or a glaive.
The guys who used those monster German two-handers were big men, yes, but
not that much bigger (stronger) than everyone else. The heavesit
'war-swords' I know of weigh 8 pounds. There are 15 pounders, but these
look to be ceramonial executioner swords and the like.
What makes weapons different is tech levels. The problem with those bigs
lists in FH (and AD&D books) is that it makes one think that *all* of that
stuff was being used at the same time. It wasn't. Certain weapons were
abandoned after a while as other ones came into existance.
For example, you don't see throwing axes much after 1100 AD, while spears
die out after (oh..) 1200. As armor gets thicker, staff weapons (ie pole
arms) change to match.
> I think the problem is because STR is usually monolithic. An 18 STR
> warrior can also lift, punch, etc. like some proto-typical Conan. However,
> couldn't a unit that trained like the Swiss have 13 to 15 STR, with the
> balance of the STR min only for wielding polearms?
If you've trained that much with your weapons, then you've inceased the
over-all STR of your body.
> Or maybe suppose the
> possibility of buying combat skill levels, Only To Reduce STR min -2.
> Couple that with increased cost of STR, and I think it might work.
Except that CSL have no affect on STR min. Just lower the STR min and
purchase STR based on conception rather than the need to swing 'x' weapon.
> BTW, our campaign uses escalating cost of characteristics, instead of
> Heroic maximums. For example, anyone can buy STR as high as they want,
> but the first 5 points costs 1 CP each, the second 5 cost 2 CP each, the
> next 5 cost 3 CP each, and so on. The reasoning here is that anyone that
> care to exert themselves at strenous activity (like adventuring) can get to
> 15 STR easily. After that, it takes specific work. Couple that with
> different racical starting points (10 for humans, 8 for elves, 13 for
> dwarves, etc.) and the races have more differences.
We used a flat 2pts per STR point. I didn't like it, but it did keep STR
down.
***************************************************************************
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Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 17:30:14 -0400
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
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>perhaps one can envision a two-handed plunge-the-dagger-into-the-evil-
>overlord's-back kind of maneuver, where extra damage would be feasible.
Frankly, this sounds more like a graphic description (as opposed to a game
mechanics description) of a character that is Pushing his attack (and
probably his STR as well), than a specific maneuver.
Jeff Reid
Morfhis@compuserve.com
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm
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Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 17:30:18 -0400
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
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> Most people in this discussion do not like to the listed STR mins.
Perhaps
> the normal STR min should be AP/3 instead of AP/2. Although, the mins
are
> already lower for the above weapons, maybe this is not necessary.
I like the Steve Long's approach, but I feel I should point out that the
reason his examples result in lower STR Mins is that he did not add 0 END
Cost to the weapons (which of course increase the Active Cost and thus the
STR Min), while all the weapons on the Melee Weapon Chart are assumed to
have 0 END Cost
Jeff Reid
Morfhis@compuserve.com
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 17:43:11 -0500
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>I like the Steve Long's approach, but I feel I should point out that the
>reason his examples result in lower STR Mins is that he did not add 0 END
>Cost to the weapons (which of course increase the Active Cost and thus the
>STR Min), while all the weapons on the Melee Weapon Chart are assumed to
>have 0 END Cost
Which Melee Weapon Chart are you talking about? The one in the HSR has
"Broadsword, +1 OCV, 1d6+1 HKA, 13 STR" This is identical in FH. If
anything in those books can be believed, the 13 STR comes from 20 active
HKA, + 5 active for the +1 OCV. So (Active/2) = 12.5, rounded up to 13.
Or did I just rationalize this trying to make sense of it all?
Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 18:05:09 -0500
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Michael Surbrook writes:
>On Sun, 7 Jun 1998, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote:
>> Now for another monkey wrench: To my admittedly limited experience (all
>> academic, non practical) of weapons, I don't see a second hand on a
bastard
>> sword or spear adding to the damage at all, regardless of STR. I mean,
a 2
>> handed sword gets its awesome damage because it is a long and heavy
blade.
>> A bastard sword doesn't get any longer or heavier when used 2 handed.
In
>A bastard sword benefits from greater leverage when used two-handed. My
>SCA bastard sword is about 4' long (maybe 4' 6") with an 18" hilt. If I
>tried to swing it one handed, it would not balance well (mainly 'cause I
>don't have the STR Min to use it that way). Gripping it two handed allows
>me to move it faster and with more power.
Maybe we are talking past each other with our phrasing here. I don't see
how anything can have greater leverage with 2 hands than with 1. But then
I'm taking leverage be a handy short-hand (but imprecise language) to mean
the amount of force exerted. Isn't this just basic physics? Momentum is
what is important, and that's just mass times velocity. The mass of the
blade is set. So the only thing the warrior can control is the velocity.
He can control it by swinging the weapon in a larger arc or by swinging it
faster.
Try a simple experiment. Hold a small object in both hands. Stand in
front of a wall. See how far you can stand away from the wall, but still
touch it with the object. Now hold the same object in 1 hand. See how far
from the wall you can stand now. I can definitely make the tip of
something move faster while holding it in 1 hand than 2. But read on.
>> fact, it gets a little shorter, because the arm reach is restricted.
What
>> the blade does get is a little easier to control.
>Your reach is not restricted because you are not glued to the ground. If
>fighting with a bastard sword and shield, then your sword shoulder and arm
>is kept back to keep it behind your shield. If fighting two-handed, you
>are more square, to increase mobility. It evens out in the end.
Agreed. "Reach" was a bad choice on my part. What I should have said is
"Range of Motion." I hadn't even though about footwork. (And that would
be another way to increase velocity, wouldn't it?)
>> To me that sounds like a
>> +1 OCV. (I'm assuming that the +1 OCV on some of the bigger blades was
>> originally given because of control and reach, not because they are
lighter
>> than, say, scimitars.)
>I presume the +1 OCV is for balance. IMO junk the +1 OCV unless the
>weapon is question is light, balanced and quick (ie. rapier of jien).
You might be right on the +1 OCV being too much, but if you are, the whole
system is broken for heroic games. I'm not willing to go as far as GURPs
and make axes twice as slow as blades, but I'm not willing to say there are
no differences in their quickeness easier. Anyone have suggestions?
Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 18:37:09 -0500
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Michael Surbrook writes:
>On Sun, 7 Jun 1998, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote:
>> Michael says that the STR minimums as listed are too high, citing that
>> whole units of Swiss Halbediers were not running around with every man
>> roughly 3 times as strong as the average population (I.e. 18 vs 10 STR).
>> I'd have to agree with that. OTOH, reducing the STR minimums is be
>> necessity going to compress the range of possible weapon STR
minimums--same
>> as using AP/3 instead of AP/2. With STR only costing 1 CP each point,
>> there is just no reason for every character not to buy "just a little
extra
>> STR to get that next larger weapon." With only 3 STR points separating
>> most weapons, it's bad enough.
>Guess what? The STR needed to use different weapons isn't all that
>different. If you are strong enough to use a halberd properly, than you
>are strong enough to lift a pike, or a poll-axe or a bill or a glaive.
>The guys who used those monster German two-handers were big men, yes, but
>not that much bigger (stronger) than everyone else. The heavesit
>'war-swords' I know of weigh 8 pounds. There are 15 pounders, but these
>look to be ceramonial executioner swords and the like.
I'm aware of this historically, but I'm trying to simulate a wide open
Fantasy game where every one has a different favorite weapon. I don't care
to keep an extremely tight rein on technology or wealth. So if I make
certain weapons obviously better than others, then the characters will use
those weapons. (I always hated that about D&D--all those dwarves running
around with war hammer and axes sounded so right, but seemed so stupid in
the mechanics.)
>What makes weapons different is tech levels. The problem with those bigs
>lists in FH (and AD&D books) is that it makes one think that *all* of that
>stuff was being used at the same time. It wasn't. Certain weapons were
>abandoned after a while as other ones came into existance.
Sure, historically. But see above. It may be realistic, but it's not
cinematic.
>For example, you don't see throwing axes much after 1100 AD, while spears
>die out after (oh..) 1200. As armor gets thicker, staff weapons (ie pole
>arms) change to match.
>> I think the problem is because STR is usually monolithic. An 18 STR
>> warrior can also lift, punch, etc. like some proto-typical Conan.
However,
>> couldn't a unit that trained like the Swiss have 13 to 15 STR, with the
>> balance of the STR min only for wielding polearms?
>If you've trained that much with your weapons, then you've inceased the
>over-all STR of your body.
Some, but not to the same extent all over. I've done a lot of splitting
wood with axe, sledge, and maul. (Yeah, I know the stumps don't jump
around ;-) I can fairly surely state that STR has very little to do with,
once you have the basic STR to swing the tool. You let the weapon do the
work. The only thing you use STR for is to pick the tool up, start the
swing, then recover efficiently--in short, control the tool. Someone twice
as strong, with equal skill, could not split wood noticable faster than me.
He could, however, split a lot longer (given equal CON, END, and REC),
because he would need a much smaller proportion of his STR to control the
tool. If he were dumb enough to use his full STR under the mistaken
impression that it would help, not only would he wear out in a hurry, he
also might damage the tool.
I say all that, because in no way did splitting wood make me tons stronger.
It made me very slightly stronger (not even a full point in Hero terms) in
some ways. I doubt I could lift measureably lift more after than before.
Yet I could very definitely control the tools much better, with less
effort. (It made for a certain wiry STR, not raw power.)
>> Or maybe suppose the
>> possibility of buying combat skill levels, Only To Reduce STR min -2.
>> Couple that with increased cost of STR, and I think it might work.
>Except that CSL have no affect on STR min. Just lower the STR min and
>purchase STR based on conception rather than the need to swing 'x' weapon.
What I'm driving at, is that practicing wielding something like a weapon
doesn't noticably improve STR, unless the person was a just little under
STR before the training started. (All that running, lifting, and other
things besides actual weapon training that any military unit would do, is
partially to make up for that problem.)
Wielding something heavy is partially a skill (and more than the ridiculous
1 CP WF). How should it be portrayed?
>> BTW, our campaign uses escalating cost of characteristics, instead of
>> Heroic maximums. For example, anyone can buy STR as high as they want,
>> but the first 5 points costs 1 CP each, the second 5 cost 2 CP each, the
>> next 5 cost 3 CP each, and so on. The reasoning here is that anyone
that
>> care to exert themselves at strenous activity (like adventuring) can get
to
>> 15 STR easily. After that, it takes specific work. Couple that with
>> different racical starting points (10 for humans, 8 for elves, 13 for
>> dwarves, etc.) and the races have more differences.
>We used a flat 2pts per STR point. I didn't like it, but it did keep STR
>down.
What specifically did you not like about it? You might could do what I
did, only increase the cost every 3 points of STR, instead of 5. That
would be fairly realistic. I don't see how anyone full grown male could
avoid getting at least a 13 STR, with moderate exercise.
Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Gadget Belts ... ? about MP
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Date: 07 Jun 1998 20:05:45 -0400
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Bob Greenwade writes:
> This comes out mechanically the same as what I was proposing; it's
> just a matter of whether it's defined as an expansion of the Focus
> Limitation or an additional Limited Power. I prefer the former, because
> I think it's better to expand on the existing categories where possible
> rather than just dump anything new into Limited Power, which basically is
> the "Miscellaneous" category.
While I think Focus is a good basis to work from, I do think that "multiple
foci" does fall into the miscellaneous category. I mean, sure, what you
propose works okay for two foci, but what if someone has three, or five, or
a dozen? How many times are you going to let someone take a Focus variant
for what really ammounts to, say, a -1 conditional Limitation?
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Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 21:25:16 -0400
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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> Michael says that the STR minimums as listed are too high, citing that
> whole units of Swiss Halbediers were not running around with every man
> roughly 3 times as strong as the average population (I.e. 18 vs 10 STR).
Thing is, I disagree with that premise. It assumes that all those Swiss
halberdiers had the so-called minimum STR to utilize the weapon. As I think
has been shown, STR Min really isn't, in that a character with a lower STR
can use the weapon, albeit at some penalties.
BTW, I assume Michael is using the stats for "Great Axe" (STR 18) when he
says "halberd," although I would have used the stats for the more generic
"Pole Arm" (STR 13). Admittedly, though, I'm >no< expert, so I'll use the
stats under discussion.
If you think about it, even if you take the STR Min's as written, there's
no reason to assume that the Swiss halberdier's all had a STR of 18. They
could just as easily have gotten by with a STR of 13, with a 2 pt level in
"Great Axe" (and probably a few more besides) to compensate for the -1 OCV
from being 5 pts under the STR Min. Certainly, it's not a stretch to assume
that the Swiss could have raised "whole units" of 13 STR soldiers, is it?
Just a thought.
Jeff Reid
Morfhis@compuserve.com
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm
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Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 21:25:17 -0400
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Handcuffs
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Looks good. The only thing I would add (and I >did,< below) is the costs
for different numbers of charges:
> 13 Handcuffs: 5 DEF, 1 BODY (-1/2), Transparent to Attack (+1/2),
> Entangle can be negated by a sucessful Lockpicking roll (-1/4), No
> Range (-1/2), Target must be effective DCV of 0 to attach (-2),
> Can only Entangle two paired limbs (-1/2),
> 4 Recoverable Charges (-1/2), OAF (-1)
1-3 charges = 12 pts, 4 charges = 13 pts, 6-8 charges = 14 pts
FWIW, it seems a little expensive for what you get, which is why no player
I've ever known has been willing to expend the points to carry such a
useful item. A shame, really.
Jeff Reid
Morfhis@compuserve.com
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Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 21:54:24 -0400
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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> Which Melee Weapon Chart are you talking about? The one in the HSR has
> "Broadsword, +1 OCV, 1d6+1 HKA, 13 STR" This is identical in FH. If
> anything in those books can be believed, the 13 STR comes from 20 active
> HKA, + 5 active for the +1 OCV. So (Active/2) = 12.5, rounded up to 13.
> Or did I just rationalize this trying to make sense of it all?
<Quickly doing math...> Hmmm, you're right. D-oh! I hadn't done the math,
for the swords and axes! The only weapons I've added up to find the cost
was the great club, because I have a Champions character who carries one
(and thus had to pay points for it). I guess the listings for the normal
damage weapons are hold-overs from earlier editions, where they must have
been bought as No Range Energy Blasts (5 active points per die) instead of
Hand Attacks (3 active pts per die). I just assumed that the other weapons
had 0 End cost...
Oh well, you know the old chestnut about what happens when you assume...
:-)
Jeff Reid
Morfhis@compuserve.com
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm
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Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 22:21:49 -0400
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 06:37 PM 6/7/98 -0500, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote:
>Some, but not to the same extent all over. I've done a lot of splitting
>wood with axe, sledge, and maul. (Yeah, I know the stumps don't jump
>around ;-) I can fairly surely state that STR has very little to do with,
>once you have the basic STR to swing the tool. You let the weapon do the
>work. The only thing you use STR for is to pick the tool up, start the
>swing, then recover efficiently--in short, control the tool. Someone twice
>as strong, with equal skill, could not split wood noticable faster than me.
> He could, however, split a lot longer (given equal CON, END, and REC),
>because he would need a much smaller proportion of his STR to control the
>tool. If he were dumb enough to use his full STR under the mistaken
>impression that it would help, not only would he wear out in a hurry, he
>also might damage the tool.
That's the weapon familiarity points that you acquired. That's why you
improved with the axe.
Joe
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Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 22:28:44 -0400
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Handcuffs
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 09:25 PM 6/7/98 -0400, Jeff M. Reid wrote:
>Looks good. The only thing I would add (and I >did,< below) is the costs
>for different numbers of charges:
>
>> 13 Handcuffs: 5 DEF, 1 BODY (-1/2), Transparent to Attack (+1/2),
>> Entangle can be negated by a sucessful Lockpicking roll (-1/4), No
>> Range (-1/2), Target must be effective DCV of 0 to attach (-2),
>> Can only Entangle two paired limbs (-1/2),
>> 4 Recoverable Charges (-1/2), OAF (-1)
>
>1-3 charges = 12 pts, 4 charges = 13 pts, 6-8 charges = 14 pts
1 recoverable charge (-1.25) would be 10.
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Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 22:14:38 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
To: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
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Subject: Re: Handcuffs
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Joe Mucchiello wrote:
> At 09:25 PM 6/7/98 -0400, Jeff M. Reid wrote:
> >Looks good. The only thing I would add (and I >did,< below) is the costs
> >for different numbers of charges:
> >
> >> 13 Handcuffs: 5 DEF, 1 BODY (-1/2), Transparent to Attack (+1/2),
> >> Entangle can be negated by a sucessful Lockpicking roll (-1/4), No
> >> Range (-1/2), Target must be effective DCV of 0 to attach (-2),
> >> Can only Entangle two paired limbs (-1/2),
> >> 4 Recoverable Charges (-1/2), OAF (-1)
> >
> >1-3 charges = 12 pts, 4 charges = 13 pts, 6-8 charges = 14 pts
>
> 1 recoverable charge (-1.25) would be 10.
Add in Independant (-2) and its only 8 points.
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 22:16:44 -0500
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Jeff M. Reid writes:
>If you think about it, even if you take the STR Min's as written, there's
>no reason to assume that the Swiss halberdier's all had a STR of 18. They
>could just as easily have gotten by with a STR of 13, with a 2 pt level in
>"Great Axe" (and probably a few more besides) to compensate for the -1 OCV
>from being 5 pts under the STR Min. Certainly, it's not a stretch to
assume
>that the Swiss could have raised "whole units" of 13 STR soldiers, is it?
>Just a thought.
It makes sense to me. I have a hard time imagining any military unit of
grown men with anyone having a STR less than 13. I know if I went through
basic training, I would have a 13, and I'm hardly an imposing physical
speciman :-)
Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 22:32:01 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: GURPSNet Mailing List <gurpsnet-l@LISTS.IO.COM&>
Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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On Sun, 7 Jun 1998, Sakura wrote:
> subscribe
Dang. Sorry, all. I thought I had altered the 'to' line to be to the
'request' address. My apologies again.
J
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 22:33:51 -0500
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Joe Mucchiello writes:
>At 06:37 PM 6/7/98 -0500, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote:
>>Some, but not to the same extent all over. I've done a lot of splitting
>>wood with axe, sledge, and maul. (Yeah, I know the stumps don't jump
>>around ;-) I can fairly surely state that STR has very little to do
with,
>>once you have the basic STR to swing the tool. You let the weapon do the
>>work. The only thing you use STR for is to pick the tool up, start the
>>swing, then recover efficiently--in short, control the tool. Someone
twice
>>as strong, with equal skill, could not split wood noticable faster than
me.
>> He could, however, split a lot longer (given equal CON, END, and REC),
>>because he would need a much smaller proportion of his STR to control the
>>tool. If he were dumb enough to use his full STR under the mistaken
>>impression that it would help, not only would he wear out in a hurry, he
>>also might damage the tool.
>That's the weapon familiarity points that you acquired. That's why you
>improved with the axe.
But the point is that according to Hero mechanics, that wood has DEF and
BODY. A guy a lot stronger supposedly gets an extra damage class, so he
would be better able to split the wood. But the reality is, he can't. I
don't care how strong you are, you cannot radically increase the damage of
those tools.
OTOH, maybe I'm stalking the wrong horse here. Possibly, the tools have a
very low STR min and damage class. So even someone of my STR can max the
tool out.
Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 23:57:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: STR Min (was something else)
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On Sun, 7 Jun 1998, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote:
> >Guess what? The STR needed to use different weapons isn't all that
> >different. If you are strong enough to use a halberd properly, than you
> >are strong enough to lift a pike, or a poll-axe or a bill or a glaive.
> >The guys who used those monster German two-handers were big men, yes, but
> >not that much bigger (stronger) than everyone else. The heavesit
> >'war-swords' I know of weigh 8 pounds. There are 15 pounders, but these
> >look to be ceramonial executioner swords and the like.
>
> I'm aware of this historically, but I'm trying to simulate a wide open
> Fantasy game where every one has a different favorite weapon. I don't care
> to keep an extremely tight rein on technology or wealth. So if I make
> certain weapons obviously better than others, then the characters will use
> those weapons. (I always hated that about D&D--all those dwarves running
> around with war hammer and axes sounded so right, but seemed so stupid in
> the mechanics.)
<sigh> Then what is the point of this disscusion? What this boils down
to is this:
Steve: Why does this STR Min work like this?
Mike (& Len): Because it's broken. Realisticly it should work like this.
Steve: That's nice but I don't want realism, I want cinematic.
Mike: Then why ask the question?
I look at your comment and my first thought is "abandon STR Min". You've
stated people pay for the weapons with points, so either dump STR Min, or
minimalize it. Make 2-handed -1/4 and forget about the hand-and-half lim.
If you want the game you describe, treat it like a supers game and let
everyone just build whatever they want.
> >What makes weapons different is tech levels. The problem with those bigs
> >lists in FH (and AD&D books) is that it makes one think that *all* of that
> >stuff was being used at the same time. It wasn't. Certain weapons were
> >abandoned after a while as other ones came into existance.
>
> Sure, historically. But see above. It may be realistic, but it's not
> cinematic.
You can't have everything. If you want cinematic game then don't worry
about STR Min, that's for more 'realistic' games, just like STR Min for
guns. Stee Long recommends ignoring the STR Min for 'wilder' Dark
Champions games (where everyone can fire an Uzi one handed and often fire
two at once), and it sounds like you should here.
> However,
> >> couldn't a unit that trained like the Swiss have 13 to 15 STR, with the
> >> balance of the STR min only for wielding polearms?
>
> >If you've trained that much with your weapons, then you've inceased the
> >over-all STR of your body.
>
> Some, but not to the same extent all over.
Right, enough to improve your use of the axe/weapon. STR Mins don't have
these big 3 STR jumps (unlike the FH listings). The jumps should be 1
STR.
> I can fairly surely state that STR has very little to do with,
> once you have the basic STR to swing the tool. You let the weapon do the
> work.
Actually, your hips do the work. Cutting wood is more than picking up the
axe and letting it drop, the body needs to provide some torque or 'umph'
behind the axe or all your going to do is stick your axe in the top of the
wood chunk.
If you want to use a pole weapon effectivly, you need to train your whole
body to move the weapon, allowing one to deliver more powerful blows
*and* block blows. Do this enough and you are going to increase your STR.
By maybe 1 point, but it will happen.
> swing, then recover efficiently--in short, control the tool. Someone twice
> as strong, with equal skill, could not split wood noticable faster than me.
Depends. If he can move the axe faster and cut the wood in few strokes,
then he'll cut wood faster than you are.
> Wielding something heavy is partially a skill (and more than the ridiculous
> 1 CP WF). How should it be portrayed?
How should what be protrayed? The ability to use a weapon with some
degree of success is a WF> To use it wel is a CSL. To use it *very* well
devles into the realm of martial arts.
> >We used a flat 2pts per STR point. I didn't like it, but it did keep STR
> >down.
>
> What specifically did you not like about it? You might could do what I
> did, only increase the cost every 3 points of STR, instead of 5. That
> would be fairly realistic. I don't see how anyone full grown male could
> avoid getting at least a 13 STR, with moderate exercise.
Becuase it basically represents the idea that the GM is forcingt the
players to fit into a specific character type. Take a look at your
method. Who's going to even try to have a stat near 20? A 20 STR would
cost 15 points, a 20 DEX would cost 45 points. If you are dealing with
100 point normals, no one is going to want to cough up that much for a
characteristic and everyone is going to end up with the same stats.
It short the GM is saying 'I don't trust you to role-play, so I'm going to
force you to build things like this."
I'd also like to state that I doubt very much I have a STR greater than
10. And I can handle a spear, poll-axe, bastard sword and a broad sword
quite well.
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Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 00:03:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
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On Sun, 7 Jun 1998, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote:
> >A bastard sword benefits from greater leverage when used two-handed. My
> >SCA bastard sword is about 4' long (maybe 4' 6") with an 18" hilt. If I
> >tried to swing it one handed, it would not balance well (mainly 'cause I
> >don't have the STR Min to use it that way). Gripping it two handed allows
> >me to move it faster and with more power.
>
> Maybe we are talking past each other with our phrasing here. I don't see
> how anything can have greater leverage with 2 hands than with 1. But then
> I'm taking leverage be a handy short-hand (but imprecise language) to mean
> the amount of force exerted. Isn't this just basic physics? Momentum is
> what is important, and that's just mass times velocity. The mass of the
> blade is set. So the only thing the warrior can control is the velocity.
> He can control it by swinging the weapon in a larger arc or by swinging it
> faster.
And two handed use will let you swing it faster. I can move my bastard
sword a *lot* faster two handed than with one hand. There is also the
fact that with two hands, one hand directs where the sword goes and the
otehr help swing it (along with the hips) you develop more power with two
hands.
> Try a simple experiment. Hold a small object in both hands. Stand in
> front of a wall. See how far you can stand away from the wall, but still
> touch it with the object. Now hold the same object in 1 hand. See how far
> from the wall you can stand now. I can definitely make the tip of
> something move faster while holding it in 1 hand than 2. But read on.
Which means something only if you are fighting with the tip and not the
edge. Fencers don't use two handed weapons (although I have seen German
two-handed rapiers). Although bastrad and great swords have points, they
are cutting weapons.
> >> fact, it gets a little shorter, because the arm reach is restricted.
> What
> >> the blade does get is a little easier to control.
>
> >Your reach is not restricted because you are not glued to the ground. If
> >fighting with a bastard sword and shield, then your sword shoulder and arm
> >is kept back to keep it behind your shield. If fighting two-handed, you
> >are more square, to increase mobility. It evens out in the end.
>
> Agreed. "Reach" was a bad choice on my part. What I should have said is
> "Range of Motion." I hadn't even though about footwork. (And that would
> be another way to increase velocity, wouldn't it?)
Yes, Your footwork is highly important. In sword and shield, bastad
sword, kenjutsu, fencing... *everything*.
> >I presume the +1 OCV is for balance. IMO junk the +1 OCV unless the
> >weapon is question is light, balanced and quick (ie. rapier of jien).
>
> You might be right on the +1 OCV being too much, but if you are, the whole
> system is broken for heroic games. I'm not willing to go as far as GURPs
> and make axes twice as slow as blades, but I'm not willing to say there are
> no differences in their quickeness easier. Anyone have suggestions?
As I have ssaid before, the system is broken for heroic games. I did give
you my suggestion on the matter (new weapons rules on my website) but you
discarded them as 'too realistic' for you more cinematic game.
Steve, seriously... what do you want as an answer? What are you trying to
accomplish (or fix) in your game? This discussion is going nowhere.
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Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 00:10:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
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On Sun, 7 Jun 1998, Jeff M. Reid wrote:
> > Michael says that the STR minimums as listed are too high, citing that
> > whole units of Swiss Halbediers were not running around with every man
> > roughly 3 times as strong as the average population (I.e. 18 vs 10 STR).
>
> Thing is, I disagree with that premise. It assumes that all those Swiss
> halberdiers had the so-called minimum STR to utilize the weapon. As I think
> has been shown, STR Min really isn't, in that a character with a lower STR
> can use the weapon, albeit at some penalties.
Yes, I agree. But I still disagree with the 18 STR given for the halberd.
To use it at full effectiveness, you have to be able to perfrom a max lift
of 600 pounds... who would develop such a weapon?
> BTW, I assume Michael is using the stats for "Great Axe" (STR 18) when he
> says "halberd," although I would have used the stats for the more generic
> "Pole Arm" (STR 13). Admittedly, though, I'm >no< expert, so I'll use the
> stats under discussion.
No, the halberd is listed as having a STR Min of 18 on page 97 of Fantasy
Hero.
> If you think about it, even if you take the STR Min's as written, there's
> no reason to assume that the Swiss halberdier's all had a STR of 18. They
> could just as easily have gotten by with a STR of 13, with a 2 pt level in
> "Great Axe" (and probably a few more besides) to compensate for the -1 OCV
> from being 5 pts under the STR Min. Certainly, it's not a stretch to assume
> that the Swiss could have raised "whole units" of 13 STR soldiers, is it?
> Just a thought.
I'll buy the majority of the Swiss (and German and Italian) halberdiers
having a 13 STR. My arguemnt is the base STR Min. It's too high by far.
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Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 00:11:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Handcuffs
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On Sun, 7 Jun 1998, Ross Rannells wrote:
> > >> 13 Handcuffs: 5 DEF, 1 BODY (-1/2), Transparent to Attack (+1/2),
> > >> Entangle can be negated by a sucessful Lockpicking roll (-1/4), No
> > >> Range (-1/2), Target must be effective DCV of 0 to attach (-2),
> > >> Can only Entangle two paired limbs (-1/2),
> > >> 4 Recoverable Charges (-1/2), OAF (-1)
> > >
> > >1-3 charges = 12 pts, 4 charges = 13 pts, 6-8 charges = 14 pts
> >
> > 1 recoverable charge (-1.25) would be 10.
>
> Add in Independant (-2) and its only 8 points.
Okay... but why add Independent? If I ever loose one, I loose the points
and have to spend new EPs to get a new pair of handcuffs.
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Champions Campaign:Purgatory 2050
General description:The year if 2050. WW 3 has come and gone leaving the
world much changed. Gone are the super powers of the late 20th century. The
world has fractured into numerous city-states and factions. Squabbling and
small border conflicts are common but lack of resourcs and the scars of the
3 global conflict keep them small scale in large part. The battles in 2050
are small unit battles and covert operations fought between competing
factions,dictators and corporations.Mercifully,the use of large scale nuclar
weapons was limited in the 3rd War,only a few were actually used primarily
in the Middle East and Eastern Europe. But a perhaps more deadly type of
weapon was utilixed,biological. Eingineered viruses and custom plagues ran
rampant during the war. Among them something went wrong or perhaps according
to someone plans. A mutant strain of virus was created. One that could alter
human genetic makeup,creating being with extra ordinary abilites,the Meta
Human Transformational Virus and ushering in the current age of metahumans.
Importance of the Pcs:As metas (presumedly) player’s characters hold a great
deal of status in 2050. Public opinion on Metahumans runs from worship to
hatred but no one is neutral. Among the common citizens Metas are held up as
paragons,heroes and adventurers. Life is harsh in 2050,people need something
to look up to and fantazie about. Metas,with their superhuman powers and
“perfect” lives fit the bill nicely. Even those that choose villianous paths
draw followers and fans.
Campigan Tone:
Morality:Some cross over between Good and Bad
Realism:Realistic
Outlook:Success balanced by failures.
Seriousness:Almost entirly serious
Continuitry:Some serial some episodic
Physical World: 2050 Earth,among the myraid societies that have sprung up
after the 3rd World War destroyed or weakened most of the major govornments
to the point of collaspe. Technology is andvacned with man portiable laser
weaponry becoming common and plasma weaponry on the fore front. Nano
technology has made incrdible leaps in medical and computer science
possible.Cybernetics allows the wealthy to repair and ehance themselves in
fantastic ways. A global compter network enables high speed communication
and information exchange. As for the “average” citizen in 2050,there really
isn’t one. Anarchists,Neo feminists and any thing else that can be imagined
exist in various enclaves around the globe. Most human populations is
centered around massive urban centers like the San Francisco Megaplex with
scattered settlement,growing smaller and typically more bizzare as you
progress away from the cities. Life tends to be harsher in the era,resources
are scarce and powers often lies in the hands of the more ruthless. The
rapid changes created by the war,technology and the Meta virus have left
most of the population reeling from the effects of future shock,alienated
and hostile. Violence is a very real fact in practically eveyone’s life.
Starting points for Pcs:100
Disadvantage points:100
Max from one disadvatage category:none
Characters have normal char max at no cost: No (get full disad points for it)
Character have normal tech at no cost:Yes (except bionics)
Limits: Beginning Range Max
Attack powers: 6-8 10 dc
Defense powers: 10-15 20
Skill rolls 11-/15- 18-
Combat uses hit locations:Yes
Use knockdown :Yes
LTE Used :No
Limited Push :Yes
Notes: The Meta Human Virus is a retro virus that rewrtes the human gentic
code. In 98% percent of the cases,it grants the “victim” new abilites and
powers. Physical changes,mental ehancements and even more bizzare poweres
have been catologued. The orgins,full nature and almost all other
informartion about the virus itself is unknown. Its is suspected to lie
dormant in most humans and never emerges but in a very few it does. Most
often it is triggered by some extreme physical stress such as radiation
exposure or near death. More cases are being reported of the virus emerging
neonatally or during puberty. The sience of meta genetics is in its infancy.
There are just as many quacks as there are competent researchers in the
feild. The virus and its changes seem not to follow most known laws of
biology. Twe metas may or may not have a meta child for examople and if they
do its abilties may be completly diffrent from the parents. There are
however, “races” of metas that seem to pass on their abilites from
generation to generation like the werewolf like Pack. Many of these resemble
mythic monsters suggeting that perhaps the virus exsisted naturally before
or they are ther result of something else.
Characters:The PCs are former criminals, inducted into a speical program
called the Purgatory Project. Already sentenced to long term imprisonment or
worse, they can earn reduction in their sentence by performing special high
risk missions for the LA Metroplex and Unifed Western Hemisphere
govornments. Special translates as high risk operation outside the bounds of
conventional forces.
I know violence doesn't solve all problems...
But it sure feels good!
Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior
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From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@early.com>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 04:55:18 -0400
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Michael Surbrook replies:
>
> On Sun, 7 Jun 1998, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote:
>
>>>A bastard sword benefits from greater leverage when used two-handed.
My
>>>SCA bastard sword is about 4' long (maybe 4' 6") with an 18" hilt. If
I
>>>tried to swing it one handed, it would not balance well (mainly 'cause
I
>>>don't have the STR Min to use it that way). Gripping it two handed
allows
>>>me to move it faster and with more power.
>>
>> Maybe we are talking past each other with our phrasing here. I don't
see
>> how anything can have greater leverage with 2 hands than with 1. But
then
>> I'm taking leverage be a handy short-hand (but imprecise language) to
mean
>> the amount of force exerted. Isn't this just basic physics? Momentum
is
>> what is important, and that's just mass times velocity. The mass of
the
>> blade is set. So the only thing the warrior can control is the
velocity.
>> He can control it by swinging the weapon in a larger arc or by swinging
it
>> faster.
I think a better measure than momentum is kinetic energy, K = m * v^2. It
takes only a 1.4 times increase in velocity to nearly double an object's
kinetic energy.
Putting the muscles of two arms behind a swing rather than just one likely
doesn't double the blade's swing velocity; but then, it doesn't have to in
order to increase its damage by +1 DC (assuming that a doubling of energy
generally increases damage by 1 DC for game purposes, but that's a whole
other debate).
> And two handed use will let you swing it faster. I can move my bastard
> sword a *lot* faster two handed than with one hand. There is also the
> fact that with two hands, one hand directs where the sword goes and the
> otehr help swing it (along with the hips) you develop more power with
two
> hands.
>
>> Try a simple experiment. Hold a small object in both hands. Stand in
>> front of a wall. See how far you can stand away from the wall, but
still
>> touch it with the object. Now hold the same object in 1 hand. See how
far
>> from the wall you can stand now. I can definitely make the tip of
>> something move faster while holding it in 1 hand than 2. But read on.
>
> Which means something only if you are fighting with the tip and not the
> edge. Fencers don't use two handed weapons (although I have seen German
> two-handed rapiers). Although bastrad and great swords have points,
they
> are cutting weapons.
Here are some other experiments. Try driving a golf ball or hitting a
baseball, using both one-handed and two-handed grips on the club or bat,
and compare how far the ball goes in either situation. The two-handed
grip provides not just greater control, but also increased swing velocity,
hence longer distance for the driven ball (projectile motion range is
also proportional to the square of the projectile's velocity).
(material snipped)
>>>I presume the +1 OCV is for balance. IMO junk the +1 OCV unless the
>>>weapon is question is light, balanced and quick (ie. rapier of jien).
>>
>> You might be right on the +1 OCV being too much, but if you are, the
whole
>> system is broken for heroic games. I'm not willing to go as far as
GURPs
>> and make axes twice as slow as blades, but I'm not willing to say there
are
>> no differences in their quickeness easier. Anyone have suggestions?
I'm not quite as stingy in handing out OCV bonuses to weapons as Michael
is, so my approach probably shades a bit more to the cinematic than his.
I would permit a +1 OCV to a broad sword and similarly sized bastard
sword, none to a heavier war sword, and perhaps a -1 OCV to the heaviest
of great swords. (Actually, I prefer a percentile dice system for attack
and skill rolls, where a +1 OCV represents a +10% better chance of hitting
the foe. This permits even finer gradations in OCV bonuses and penalties,
from +10% for the rapier down to -5% for the great sword).
Unlike swords, axes don't provide any OCV bonus, and the heaviest axes
incur a -1 OCV (gradually decrease to a -10% modifier), making axes
somewhat less wieldy in comparison. Most axes do have better armor
penetrating power than swords of comparable mass--I call this a Semi-Armor
Piercing Advantage (+1/4) that reduces the defensive value by 1/4. You
could use the full AP Advantage if you prefer, or give axes Piercing
Points from the old Champions III supplement.
Other, very long and unwieldy weapons can be given an OCV penalty,
particularly the long spear and pike, weapons meant to be used in mass
formations and not by individual soldiers in a scrap. The basic spear
might be treated as -1 OCV if used in a one-handed stabbing fashion, with
no penalty for two-hand use, to reflect a greater maneuverability,
flexibility, and reaction speed when both hands are employed.
Incidentally, I also think that treating a 13 STR as typical for
physically fit men-at-arms in most human cultures is reasonable and
realistic for a heroic campaign.
(most stuff snipped)
Len Carpenter
redlion@early.com
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From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@early.com>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 04:59:50 -0400
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>> Most people in this discussion do not like to the listed STR mins. Perhaps
>> the normal STR min should be AP/3 instead of AP/2. Although, the mins
>> are already lower for the above weapons, maybe this is not necessary.
>
> Jeff M. Reid writes:
>
>> I like the Steve Long's approach, but I feel I should point out that the
>> reason his examples result in lower STR Mins is that he did not add 0 END
>> Cost to the weapons (which of course increase the Active Cost and thus the
>> STR Min), while all the weapons on the Melee Weapon Chart are assumed to
>> have 0 END Cost
The 0 END Cost Advantage shouldn't, as I interpret it, increase the Active
Cost of a power for purpose of determining its STR Min. That's
unbalanced. Consider that Reduced END shouldn't increase the Active Cost
of a power when determining an Area Effect range. A 6d6 EB with the Area
Effect (Radius) Advantage (+1) should have a 3" radius whether it's bought
at normal END Cost, 1/2 END, or 0 END. Otherwise, the Reduced END
Advantage becomes a cheap way to boost a power's effect in some cases,
getting two benefits (increased radius and reduced END) for the price of
one. That too is unbalanced, though in the character's favor rather than
against it.
It's a point that's not terribly clear in the rules, of course, when the
points paid for Reduced END are not to be included in a calculation,
especially with regard to the STR Min Limitation. Only by taking this
interpretation do the STR Mins in the weapons tables make sense.
While we're on the subject of Steve Long's revised method, how should a -1
OCV modifier applied to a weapon affect its STR Min? Do you treat it like
a Limitation, say -1/4, that may reduce the Real Cost but doesn't affect
the STR Min, or do you subtract 5 points from the Active Cost before
calculating the STR Min, as some of the weapons in Fantasy Hero's table
suggests? Compare, for example, the voulge to the halberd, or the
military pick to the large pick, weapons with similar damage and effect,
but the weapon with the -1 OCV has a lower STR Min. The lower STR Min may
be seen to balance the OCV penalty. But from the point of view of
"realism," if an OCV penalty is supposed to represent a more massive or
unwieldy version of the weapon type, why the lower STR Min?
I favor applying an OCV penalty only to the longest or heaviest of
weapons, perhaps to a pike or a great axe, not to a 1.5-handed weapon. I
also wouldn't treat a voulge as a less wieldy weapon than a halberd, yet a
weapon a less brawny soldier can use to full effect. So I'd rather call
it a Limitation. Comments?
Len Carpenter
redlion@early.com
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Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 06:50:32 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
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To address Len's points (should 0 END increase the STR Min of a weapon or
not; how do you deal with -1 OCV on a weapon, and should that decrease the STR
Min?) without doing a lot of cutting and pasting, let me just say that I think
he touches on an important point, to wit:
What Advantages, Limitations, and additions/deductions from a weapon's cost
should affect its STR Min?
Frankly, I think that there are a lot of Power Modifiers that probably
shouldn't affect the STR Min at all. 0 END is a good example. Another one is
Armor Piercing -- making a sword sharper, or substituting teflon bullets for
normal bullets, doesn't affect the weight or balance (or what have you) of a
weapon in any substantial way. Why, therefore, should these Modifiers
affect STR Min -- should STR Min be based entirely on unmodified Active
Points? Of course, this adds yet another level of complexity to the whole
situation, which may be reason to avoid it, at least in a basic rules set.
Short of systems-based arguments ("It's easier and more "balanced" to use
the full Active Points"), what does the list think are Advantages that should
*always* affect a weapon's STR Min?
Similarly, +1/-1 OCV arguably shouldn't have an affect on STR Min -- though
I can see an argument that, for example, -1 OCV weapons are "unwieldy" and
thus should have full STR Min (no subtraction from Active Points as Len
suggests).
Thoughts? Comments? Suggestions? Ideas?
Steve Long
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Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 06:45:56 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Gadget Belts ... ? about MP
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At 08:05 PM 6/7/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>Bob Greenwade writes:
>
>> This comes out mechanically the same as what I was proposing; it's
>> just a matter of whether it's defined as an expansion of the Focus
>> Limitation or an additional Limited Power. I prefer the former, because
>> I think it's better to expand on the existing categories where possible
>> rather than just dump anything new into Limited Power, which basically is
>> the "Miscellaneous" category.
>
>While I think Focus is a good basis to work from, I do think that "multiple
>foci" does fall into the miscellaneous category. I mean, sure, what you
>propose works okay for two foci, but what if someone has three, or five, or
>a dozen? How many times are you going to let someone take a Focus variant
>for what really ammounts to, say, a -1 conditional Limitation?
I really can't see this as anything but an extension of Focus; after
all, I don't see how it could be taken by itself. There has to be at least
one Focus before there can be multiple Foci. Even of the GM only allows
the modifier to be taken once (whether by saying that there can be no more
than two Foci or saying that you only get the modifier once no matter how
many Foci you have), it really belongs as part of the Focus Limitation.
Whether the modifier can be taken more than once is a separate question,
and while your concern about getting an extreme Limitation for several
required Foci isn't exactly illegitimate, I don't think it's as much of a
potential problem as you evidently do.
First, remember that under the Hero System, the more Limitations you
have on a Power, the less return you get for having more. One OAF on a 60
point Power is 30 points. Two OAFs at (using my proposed method) -1-1/2
would be 24 points. Three at -2 would be 20 points. Four (-2-1/2) would
be 17 points. Five (-3) would be 15 points. A dozen (-6-1/2) would be 9
points. In each case, that's one more Focus that can get lost or broken,
depriving the character of the Power until all can be retrieved or repaired.
Second, having multiple Foci for a Power does have some precedent.
Here, I'm thinking specifically of the Mandarin, at least as he was
presented in the animated Iron Man TV program. Each of his ten rings had a
specific power, but he could also use them in combinations, up to a
combination of all ten for a particularly powerful magic blast. In the
opener of the show's second season, a catastrophe separated the rings from
him and scattered them over a large area; after he recovered from his
injuries, he had to go from place to place, retrieving each one in turn,
sometimes using the powers of the rings he'd already found but more often
resorting to brute force and treachery. Now, using my method, this would
be (at most) a -2-3/4 Limitation for all ten rings (bought as OIF), and
Mandarin was certainly limited in his need for all ten to use some of his
powers.
Like I say, though, I don't think your concern is altogether unfounded.
Faced with a chance to get a huge Limitation for what *looks* like a
relatively minor difficulty, many "wargame mentality" players will be
strongly tempted to exploit it for all the benefit they can get ("I need
all ten of my IIF rings to use my Energy Blast"). A Caution sign (as the
successor to the magnifying glass) would be called for here. The GM should
be prepared to reject any application which appears abusive, as well as to
exploit any use of multiple Foci as a problem for using the Power.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 06:49:29 -0700
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Handcuffs
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At 10:14 PM 6/7/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote:
>Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>
>> At 09:25 PM 6/7/98 -0400, Jeff M. Reid wrote:
>> >Looks good. The only thing I would add (and I >did,< below) is the costs
>> >for different numbers of charges:
>> >
>> >> 13 Handcuffs: 5 DEF, 1 BODY (-1/2), Transparent to Attack (+1/2),
>> >> Entangle can be negated by a sucessful Lockpicking roll (-1/4), No
>> >> Range (-1/2), Target must be effective DCV of 0 to attach (-2),
>> >> Can only Entangle two paired limbs (-1/2),
>> >> 4 Recoverable Charges (-1/2), OAF (-1)
>> >
>> >1-3 charges = 12 pts, 4 charges = 13 pts, 6-8 charges = 14 pts
>>
>> 1 recoverable charge (-1.25) would be 10.
>
> Add in Independant (-2) and its only 8 points.
As Michael points out, there's really no call for Independent. That
Limitation is for something in which the character has spent a part of
himself in (hence the permanent loss of Character Points when it's lost or
destroyed), and that's not the case with a simple pair of handcuffs (which
are easily replaced).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 07:04:08 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Affecting STR Min
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<x-rich>At 06:50 AM 6/8/1998 EDT, SteveL1979@aol.com wrote:
> To address Len's points (should 0 END increase the STR Min of a weapon
or
>not; how do you deal with -1 OCV on a weapon, and should that decrease
the STR
>Min?) without doing a lot of cutting and pasting, let me just say that I
think
>he touches on an important point, to wit:
>
> What Advantages, Limitations, and additions/deductions from a weapon's
cost
>should affect its STR Min?
<italic> </italic>I don't happen to have an opinion very stronly in
any direction on this, except that any principle that affects swords
should also affect clubs, bows, firearms, and energy weapons, unless
there's some specific reason (other than just "special effects") that it
should be different. If Armor Piercing doesn't affect the STR Min of a
sword, then it shouldn't affect the STR Min of an Uzi, and vice versa.
---
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From: "David W. Salmon" <dwsalmon@earthlink.net>
To: "Champions News Group" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Handcuffs
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 07:33:29 -0700
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"Entangle can be negated by a successful Lockpicking roll " ... but not by
the person entangled. The cuffs are designed so that the person wearing them
physically cannot pick the lock themselves (unless of course they use their
mouth )
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Cc: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Sunday, June 07, 1998 9:13 PM
Subject: Re: Handcuffs
>On Sun, 7 Jun 1998, Ross Rannells wrote:
>
>> > >> 13 Handcuffs: 5 DEF, 1 BODY (-1/2), Transparent to Attack (+1/2),
>> > >> Entangle can be negated by a sucessful Lockpicking roll
(-1/4), No
>> > >> Range (-1/2), Target must be effective DCV of 0 to attach
(-2),
>> > >> Can only Entangle two paired limbs (-1/2),
>> > >> 4 Recoverable Charges (-1/2), OAF (-1)
>> > >
>> > >1-3 charges = 12 pts, 4 charges = 13 pts, 6-8 charges = 14 pts
>> >
>> > 1 recoverable charge (-1.25) would be 10.
>>
>> Add in Independant (-2) and its only 8 points.
>
>Okay... but why add Independent? If I ever loose one, I loose the points
>and have to spend new EPs to get a new pair of handcuffs.
>
>***************************************************************************
>* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
>* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
>* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
>* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
>* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
>* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
>***************************************************************************
>
>
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Handcuffs
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From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 10:55:38 EDT
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>"Entangle can be negated by a successful Lockpicking roll " ... but not
by
>the person entangled. The cuffs are designed so that the person wearing
them
>physically cannot pick the lock themselves (unless of course they use
their
>mouth )
Supposedly Houdini _could_ manipulate lockpicks with his mouth, or on the
ends of small rods (to give him better reach), though I don't have the
books on hand to confirm this. There's also a persistant story (that
Walter Gibson used in one of the Shadow pulps, IIRC), that if the person
wearing a set of handcuffs strikes the lock area against something hard
in just the right way, the cuffs will spring open. If you're going to
allow that stunt (I wouldn't), a Lockpicking roll might be the easiest
way to simulate hitting the cuffs "in just the right way".
Leah
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From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 00:59:11 +1000
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> Which means something only if you are fighting with the tip and not the
> edge. Fencers don't use two handed weapons (although I have seen German
> two-handed rapiers). Although bastrad and great swords have points, they
> are cutting weapons.
>
Often such a weapon slashes with the point, not the edge, or a simmilar
variation.
The top third of the Blade is the point of contact, unless you pull the
strike through
the target as is often the case with kenjutsu style movements.
end.
> >
> > Agreed. "Reach" was a bad choice on my part. What I should have said
is
> > "Range of Motion." I hadn't even though about footwork. (And that
would
> > be another way to increase velocity, wouldn't it?)
>
> Yes, Your footwork is highly important. In sword and shield, bastad
> sword, kenjutsu, fencing... *everything*.
Indeed. When being attacked, the best option is usually to run away.
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From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: "Champions News Group" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Handcuffs
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 01:03:10 +1000
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12:33 AM
>
> "Entangle can be negated by a successful Lockpicking roll " ... but not
by
> the person entangled. The cuffs are designed so that the person wearing
them
> physically cannot pick the lock themselves (unless of course they use
their
> mouth )
>
I'd suggest that a sucessful lockpicking roll either:
A) assumes such a technique was used,
B) Requires that such an action be described to be used
C) as b, but with additional skill/stats involved.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
> Cc: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
> Date: Sunday, June 07, 1998 9:13 PM
> Subject: Re: Handcuffs
>
>
> >On Sun, 7 Jun 1998, Ross Rannells wrote:
> >
> >> > >> 13 Handcuffs: 5 DEF, 1 BODY (-1/2), Transparent to Attack
(+1/2),
> >> > >> Entangle can be negated by a sucessful Lockpicking roll
> (-1/4), No
> >> > >> Range (-1/2), Target must be effective DCV of 0 to attach
> (-2),
> >> > >> Can only Entangle two paired limbs (-1/2),
> >> > >> 4 Recoverable Charges (-1/2), OAF (-1)
> >> > >
> >> > >1-3 charges = 12 pts, 4 charges = 13 pts, 6-8 charges = 14 pts
> >> >
> >> > 1 recoverable charge (-1.25) would be 10.
> >>
> >> Add in Independant (-2) and its only 8 points.
> >
> >Okay... but why add Independent? If I ever loose one, I loose the
points
> >and have to spend new EPs to get a new pair of handcuffs.
> >
>
>***************************************************************************
> >* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano
Orbatos,Orion *
> >* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net
*
> >* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:
*
> >* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html
*
> >* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT
*
> >* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of
St.Mark *
>
>***************************************************************************
> >
> >
>
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Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 11:03:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
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On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, happyelf wrote:
>
> > Which means something only if you are fighting with the tip and not the
> > edge. Fencers don't use two handed weapons (although I have seen German
> > two-handed rapiers). Although bastrad and great swords have points, they
> > are cutting weapons.
> >
>
> Often such a weapon slashes with the point, not the edge, or a simmilar
> variation.
> The top third of the Blade is the point of contact, unless you pull the
> strike through
> the target as is often the case with kenjutsu style movements.
> end.
One does not slash with a bastard or great sword, one cleaves. Yes you
might use the upper third of the blade, but not as if it was a fencing
rapier. You actually want to hit a bit down the blade to transfer maximum
energy, must like a baseball player whatns to hit with the 'sweet spot' of
the bat, which is *not* the tip.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
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Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 09:08:18 -0700
From: Clinton Chard <chud@pioneer.net>
To: Champions Letters <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Independant Limitation
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As I was lurking and following the handcuffs thread, I was wondering
does the Independant Limitation apply to all things manufactured? When
does the Independant Lim. not apply?
--
"Contrariwise," Continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be; and if
it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic."
-Lewis Carroll
Clinton Chard
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Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 12:17:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Coming Soon!
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Surbrook's stuff is proud to announce that the DC Heroes to Hero System
coversion of Watchmen is almost done! The following characters will be
presented:
Minutemen -
Cpt. Metropolis
Dollar Bill
Hooded Justice
Mothman
Nite Owl
Silk Spectre
Silouhette (sp?)
and the rest:
Comedian
Dr. Manhattan
Nite Owl II
Ozymandias
Rorscharch
Silk Spectre II
and
Moloch
Note: Nite Owl II will be incomplete sice I still haven't figured out all
of the Owlship yet. (Stay tuned for that one).
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 09:38:02 -0700
To: Clinton Chard <chud@pioneer.net&> Champions Letters <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Independant Limitation
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At 09:08 AM 6/8/98 -0700, Clinton Chard wrote:
>As I was lurking and following the handcuffs thread, I was wondering
>does the Independant Limitation apply to all things manufactured? When
>does the Independant Lim. not apply?
>
If the PC will have to pay more character points to get another one, it's
Independant. Otherwise, it's a focus.
A cop who loses his handcuffs can request more -- they're a focus. A knight
who loses the Sword Of Cuisinart can't get another one easily -- it's
Independant.
Independant originally existed as a way to permit the creation of magic
items while also controlling them -- if you made the mage pay out his own
character points, magic items would be created rarely.
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Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 12:53:33 EDT
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Re: Handcuffs
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In a message dated 6/7/98 1:10:24 PM, susano@access.digex.net wrote:
>Well, here is the final write-up for handcuffs. Thanks for all the
>suggestions.
>
>13 Handcuffs: 5 DEF, 1 BODY (-1/2), Transparent to Attack (+1/2),
> Entangle can be negated by a sucessful Lockpicking roll (-1/4), No
> Range (-1/2), Target must be effective DCV of 0 to attach (-2),
> Can only Entangle two paired limbs (-1/2),
> 4 Recoverable Charges (-1/2), OAF (-1)
Hmmm, I get a cost of 14 points for that... 60 points of Entangle, +1/2
Advantage = 90 points; total of -5 1/4 Limitations, results in 14.4 rounds to
14.
Anyway, can we use this as one of the examples in 5th Edition? One of the
things we're trying to do is use the sidebar alongside the power descriptions
to put several common (or useful) examples of the power. These will be brief,
pretty much just like the writeup above, and in smaller type to save space and
let us put a lot of them in (we assume smaller types is OK for examples like
this, where you won't be reading them continuously).
Actually, if the Hero List would like to undertake the task of creating more
such examples, we'd appreciate that. We feel that having such examples for
most powers would be really helpful, especially to new players. All players
would benefit by having more completely written up powers to appropriate for
characters.
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games
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Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 13:02:27 EDT
To: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org, champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Re: Weapon Hands Question
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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In a message dated 6/7/98 4:46:38 PM, mdmitche@advicom.net wrote:
>Which Melee Weapon Chart are you talking about? The one in the HSR has
>
>"Broadsword, +1 OCV, 1d6+1 HKA, 13 STR" This is identical in FH. If
>
>anything in those books can be believed, the 13 STR comes from 20 active
>
>HKA, + 5 active for the +1 OCV. So (Active/2) = 12.5, rounded up to 13.
>
>Or did I just rationalize this trying to make sense of it all?
>
The chart there (and the system for generating weapons) has problems with
break points. The weapon list in 1st Edition Fantasy Hero is much better, and
resolves most of the problems you're having with the weapons.
The problem with using Limitations to generate STR Mins is that it's too crude
a method, and doesn't hit break points properly. I used a method more akin to
the rules for creating Martial Arts in order to generate a balanced weapon
list. I understand that in reality the STR required to wield really large two-
handed weapons was not close to human maximum. But STR is a convenient and
expected way to help balance out weapons in game terms. You have to remember
that we're trying to balance weapons in terms that are usable in the game. For
instance, heavy armor really didn't make you that much easier to hit, per se;
the real effect is that you get tired much more quickly wearing heavy armor,
and therefore you slow down, and therefore you become easier to hit. Modeling
that is difficult to handle; it's much easier to just reduce a character's DCV
for wearing heavy armor, and most player's don't have a problem with that.
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games
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Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 03:05:07 +1000
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----------
> > > Which means something only if you are fighting with the tip and not
the
> > > edge. Fencers don't use two handed weapons (although I have seen
German
> > > two-handed rapiers). Although bastrad and great swords have points,
they
> > > are cutting weapons.
> > >
> >
> > Often such a weapon slashes with the point, not the edge, or a simmilar
> > variation.
> > The top third of the Blade is the point of contact, unless you pull the
> > strike through
> > the target as is often the case with kenjutsu style movements.
> > end.
>
> One does not slash with a bastard or great sword, one cleaves. Yes you
> might use the upper third of the blade, but not as if it was a fencing
> rapier. You actually want to hit a bit down the blade to transfer
maximum
> energy, must like a baseball player whatns to hit with the 'sweet spot'
of
> the bat, which is *not* the tip.
>
I would suggest that any such injury requires the tip to fnction.
Moreso, in issues of reach this is clearly involved with the tip. Unless
your
suggesting a situation that the weapon can pass through the target with
relative to zero impedement (such as slicing through a wrist),
Then the chanel cut by the tip and the slightly flexion of the blade plays
a pivotal role in the injury caused. The 'sweet spot' may be the percieved
point of impact, but it is the upper extremity which determines the nature
of that impact.
as an example, take a knife and stick a cork on the end. Strike the knife
against something soft, including with the corked end. This lack of a tip
shall cause
an inferior cut, most likely more in line with blunt trauma. the same goes
if you were to blunt the upper part of the knife or cover it with tape. To
get a good wound channel a blade needs a tip. this is the point area of a
sword- and the same goes for the top and bottom of an axe blade.
This is clearly a case where the tip is used to 'fight' with. One does not
manuver it as with lighter swords, but if one hopes to
do more than clobber with it (and not have one's foe move inside one's
guard)
then striking with the extremity is the way to go. And inherent in this is
the nature of the tip. Note that many people do not
realise this, since their work with such weapons fortunatly does not
include directly
attempting to injure people.
>
***************************************************************************
> * "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion
*
> * Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net
*
> * Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:
*
> * http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html
*
> * Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT
*
> * Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark
*
>
***************************************************************************
>
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Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: "Champions Letters" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Independant Limitation
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 03:07:45 +1000
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08 AM
>
> As I was lurking and following the handcuffs thread, I was wondering
> does the Independant Limitation apply to all things manufactured?
No it does not. The origin of the object has no effect on the rules,
although gm's and players discussion of the power may rely on such
assumptions. I could even argue that if something is manufactured, you
could easily buy it again (a common way to getback mundane foci in my
games)
>When
> does the Independant Lim. not apply?
>
Whenever it's not bought as a limitation of the power.
> --
> "Contrariwise," Continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be; and if
> it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic."
> -Lewis Carroll
>
> Clinton Chard
>
>
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Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 10:20:49 -0700
To: HeroGames@aol.com
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Handcuffs
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
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Might I suggest a good limit for Entangle:"Target can move while
entangled"? This will apply to entangles which primarily go for arms.
alternatively, "Target is 1/2 DCV when entangled", to reflect Entangles
which stll allow limited dodging, etc.
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Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 13:21:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: HeroGames@aol.com
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Re: Handcuffs
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On Mon, 8 Jun 1998 HeroGames@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 6/7/98 1:10:24 PM, susano@access.digex.net wrote:
>
> >Well, here is the final write-up for handcuffs. Thanks for all the
> >suggestions.
> >
> >13 Handcuffs: 5 DEF, 1 BODY (-1/2), Transparent to Attack (+1/2),
> > Entangle can be negated by a sucessful Lockpicking roll (-1/4), No
> > Range (-1/2), Target must be effective DCV of 0 to attach (-2),
> > Can only Entangle two paired limbs (-1/2),
> > 4 Recoverable Charges (-1/2), OAF (-1)
>
> Hmmm, I get a cost of 14 points for that... 60 points of Entangle, +1/2
> Advantage = 90 points; total of -5 1/4 Limitations, results in 14.4 rounds to
> 14.
Uhm... 5 DEF is 5d6 of Entangle or 50 points. +1/2 Advantage for 75
Active Points. Yadda, yadda, it rounds to 13.
> Anyway, can we use this as one of the examples in 5th Edition? One of the
> things we're trying to do is use the sidebar alongside the power descriptions
> to put several common (or useful) examples of the power. These will be brief,
> pretty much just like the writeup above, and in smaller type to save space and
> let us put a lot of them in (we assume smaller types is OK for examples like
> this, where you won't be reading them continuously).
Oh... you betcha!
> Actually, if the Hero List would like to undertake the task of creating more
> such examples, we'd appreciate that. We feel that having such examples for
> most powers would be really helpful, especially to new players. All players
> would benefit by having more completely written up powers to appropriate for
> characters.
Like what? The cuffs came from developing the write up for Nite Owl II.
I also came up with such things as teargas greandes, a laser pen, smoke
bombs and a grappling gun for the rest of the Watchmen cast.
Do you want real world 'gadgets' to illustrate such things, or simple
'superpowers'?
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Cc: "'herogames@aol.com'" <herogames@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Handcuffs
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 10:45:28 -0700
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Lizard writes:
>Might I suggest a good limit for Entangle:"Target can move while
>entangled"? This will apply to entangles which primarily go for
>arms. Alternatively, "Target is 1/2 DCV when entangled", to
>reflect Entangles which still allow limited dodging, etc.
That would allow for the "Encumber" model of Entangles, which, to me, is
a great way to do glops of mud, gravity fluctuations, even the dreaded
slipperiness power.
Dave Mattingly
http://www.haymaker.org
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Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 19:52:28 +0200
From: Rog <uraeus@bunt.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Coming Soon!
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Michael Surbrook wrote:
>
> Surbrook's stuff is proud to announce that the DC Heroes to Hero System
> coversion of Watchmen is almost done!...<snip>
Great news!! I can't wait!
-Roger
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Gadget Belts ... ? about MP
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Bob Greenwade writes:
> I really can't see this as anything but an extension of Focus; after
> all, I don't see how it could be taken by itself. There has to be at
> least one Focus before there can be multiple Foci.
Apologies if I was unclear; I never meant that Focus be done away with. I
mean, once you take Focus, you should not be taking it 11 more times if
your Focus is comprised of 12 parts. For example, if your 12 foci qualify
as OAF, you get OAF and a reasonable conditional, "requires all 12 objects"
for -1. You need to consider not only the accessibility of these objects,
but the likelyhood that more than one will be taken or destroyed. Like
Focus itself, if you answer "rarely" to the question "how frequently will
this occour", the bonus is not going to be significant. You might have 30
pieces in your Focus; if you are rarely or never without more than one, you
get just your Focus bonus (and you should bitch at your GM if he frequently
plays the limitation for more than it is worth).
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
\
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Independant Limitation
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Lizard writes:
> If the PC will have to pay more character points to get another one, it's
> Independant. Otherwise, it's a focus.
I think you mean "it's just a Focus".
> A cop who loses his handcuffs can request more -- they're a focus. A
> knight who loses the Sword Of Cuisinart can't get another one easily --
> it's Independant.
Um... not quite.
Focus means that the power is tied to something not permanantly attached to
the character. Both the handcuffs and the Blade Cuisinart are Foci. If
both characters paid points for their respective toys, those toys are
permanant aspects of their characters, much like Greyswandir is a permanant
part of Corwin's (of Roger Zelazny's Amber novels) character. Even if it
is lost or (apparantly) destroyed, the character will be able to reacquire
it somewhere down the line. The character points he has invested in that
toy ensure that he will regain it.
Independant means that the power is not an aspect of the character, even if
he has paid points for it -- it does not need to be a Focus! There are
several examples of non-Focus Independant powers in one of the Fantasy Hero
supplements. If an Independant power is lost or destroyed, it is gone for
good. The points that the character has invested are gone; he will never
get them back. He will never get that power back.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: STR Min (was something else)
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Michael Surbrook writes:
> You can't have everything. If you want cinematic game then don't worry
> about STR Min, that's for more 'realistic' games, just like STR Min for
> guns. Stee Long recommends ignoring the STR Min for 'wilder' Dark
> Champions games (where everyone can fire an Uzi one handed and often fire
> two at once), and it sounds like you should here.
I agree, especially if you are paying points for 'common' weapons. If you
paid points for it, you can use it. You do not need Weapon Familiarities
or sufficient Strength: if you bought it, you can use it.
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Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 14:40:41 -0500
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
To: champs-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Independant Limitation
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On 6/8/98, at 2:54 PM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>Independant means that the power is not an aspect of the character, even if
>he has paid points for it -- it does not need to be a Focus! There are
>several examples of non-Focus Independant powers in one of the Fantasy Hero
>supplements. If an Independant power is lost or destroyed, it is gone for
>good. The points that the character has invested are gone; he will never
>get them back.
I agree that Independent objects are not automatically Foci, but how can you destroy such an item if it isn't a Focus (and therefore has no BODY)? There's not much info in the BBB.
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Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 12:52:53 -0700
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net&>
Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Independant Limitation
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At 02:54 PM 6/8/98 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Lizard writes:
>
>> If the PC will have to pay more character points to get another one, it's
>> Independant. Otherwise, it's a focus.
>
>I think you mean "it's just a Focus".
>
>> A cop who loses his handcuffs can request more -- they're a focus. A
>> knight who loses the Sword Of Cuisinart can't get another one easily --
>> it's Independant.
>
>Um... not quite.
>
>Focus means that the power is tied to something not permanantly attached to
>the character. Both the handcuffs and the Blade Cuisinart are Foci. If
>both characters paid points for their respective toys, those toys are
>permanant aspects of their characters, much like Greyswandir is a permanant
>part of Corwin's (of Roger Zelazny's Amber novels) character. Even if it
>is lost or (apparantly) destroyed, the character will be able to reacquire
>it somewhere down the line. The character points he has invested in that
>toy ensure that he will regain it.
>
>Independant means that the power is not an aspect of the character, even if
>he has paid points for it -- it does not need to be a Focus! There are
>several examples of non-Focus Independant powers in one of the Fantasy Hero
>supplements. If an Independant power is lost or destroyed, it is gone for
>good. The points that the character has invested are gone; he will never
>get them back. He will never get that power back.
>
Correct. But a thing can be a Focus AND Independant. Here is how I view it
in game terms:
Focus only:Character risks losing the object during an adventure, or
character must take special precautions to protect object during
anadventure, or object is otherwise limiting to the character.
Focus+Indepenant:At some point, the Character WILL lose the object, for
good, and his points along with it. The 'bonus' for an Independant object
is very good, and the limits it imposes during day-to-day gameplay are
trivial -- unless there's a very real risk of loss.
Another important distinction is that an Independant Focus is complete unto
itself. This is the distinction between a "wand of fire" and a "fireball
spell" which requires a wand to cast.
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Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 13:12:42 -0700
To: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net&> champs-l@sysabend.org
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Independant Limitation
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At 02:40 PM 6/8/98 -0500, Guy Hoyle wrote:
>On 6/8/98, at 2:54 PM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
>>Independant means that the power is not an aspect of the character, even if
>>he has paid points for it -- it does not need to be a Focus! There are
>>several examples of non-Focus Independant powers in one of the Fantasy Hero
>>supplements. If an Independant power is lost or destroyed, it is gone for
>>good. The points that the character has invested are gone; he will never
>>get them back.
>
>I agree that Independent objects are not automatically Foci, but how can
you destroy such an item if it isn't a Focus (and therefore has no BODY)?
There's not much info in the BBB.
>
Dispel it. This is how you get rid of an Independant curse, for example.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Independant Limitation
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Guy Hoyle writes:
> I agree that Independent objects are not automatically Foci, but how can
> you destroy such an item if it isn't a Focus (and therefore has no BODY)?
> There's not much info in the BBB.
If you Dispell an Independant, non-Focused power, it goes away forever.
Or, at least that is how FH deals with it.
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Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 13:22:15 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Gadget Belts ... ? about MP
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At 02:40 PM 6/8/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>Bob Greenwade writes:
>
>> I really can't see this as anything but an extension of Focus; after
>> all, I don't see how it could be taken by itself. There has to be at
>> least one Focus before there can be multiple Foci.
>
>Apologies if I was unclear; I never meant that Focus be done away with. I
>mean, once you take Focus, you should not be taking it 11 more times if
>your Focus is comprised of 12 parts. For example, if your 12 foci qualify
>as OAF, you get OAF and a reasonable conditional, "requires all 12 objects"
>for -1. You need to consider not only the accessibility of these objects,
>but the likelyhood that more than one will be taken or destroyed. Like
>Focus itself, if you answer "rarely" to the question "how frequently will
>this occour", the bonus is not going to be significant. You might have 30
>pieces in your Focus; if you are rarely or never without more than one, you
>get just your Focus bonus (and you should bitch at your GM if he frequently
>plays the limitation for more than it is worth).
The part that I was addressing on the above was whether the state of
having Multiple Foci should be listed under Focus or Limited Power (or
Conditional Power, if Steve does indeed separate it from Limited Power as I
gather most of us think it should). You seemed to be saying that it should
be under Conditional Power; I was saying that it should be a modifier for
Focus because it makes no sense to take the Limitation without Focus.
As to how much of a Limitation should be allowed for having twelve
different OAFs that are all required for the same Power, well, what I'm
seeing is that you think it should be limited to -2, while my method would
yield a -6-1/2 (which, as I think I demonstrated, is less of a difference
than it appears on the surface). I sure don't think your thought on the
matter is wrong, and in fact now that you mention it I think it's worth
mentioning in TUG (or in the rulebook, if Steve decides to adopt this rule
for mainstream play).
When you're dealing with multiple OAFs, though, you're dealing with
another problem that should be addressed. Usually, an OAF is represented
as a hand-held weapon; if not, it's most often a medallion of some kind.
(Solitaire's "widget" is one of those unusual exceptions.)
Normally, a character is limited to using only two hand-held weapons at
one time, because, well, he has only two hands to use them with. A
character with Extra Limbs can use as many hand-held devices as he has
Extra Limbs (which is only the most significant reason I think Extra Limbs
should charge per limb, but that's a whole different debate). If a Power
has three OAFs, then at least one had better be something other than a
hand-held device, or most characters won't be able to use it without help.
But what if all three OAFs are medallions? Just rambling more or less
of the top of my head here, I think it wouldn't be unreasonable to declare
that trying to grab "one of his medallions -- it doesn't matter which one"
should have some sort of OCV bonus. A +2 to OCV for every 2x acceptable
objects in one place seems appropriate (basing that on modifiers for Size).
So a character trying to grab any one of three OAF medallions would get a
+3 OCV to Grab.
Yes, this modifier would mean that it becomes easier to Grab a random
object from a set than it is to hit the person carrying them. The merits
of this are admittedly debatable. One the one hand, this is arguably
unrealistic; is it really harder to punch Mr T than it is to grab one of
his four medallions at random? (Not that one can't come up with plenty of
good reasons to not try either one to begin with!) On the other hand, the
character's getting a cost break on the points and should have to pay for
it with increased difficulty in some form. So I'm up in the air on whether
this should be a rule or not.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
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Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 15:24:59 -0500
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
To: lizard@dnai.com, champs-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Independant Limitation
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On 6/8/98, at 1:12 PM, Lizard wrote:
>>I agree that Independent objects are not automatically Foci, but how can
>you destroy such an item if it isn't a Focus (and therefore has no BODY)?
>There's not much info in the BBB.
>>
>Dispel it. This is how you get rid of an Independant curse, for example.
This is the answer I've heard over the years, but I've never been able to track down a reference to it in the books. It seems like an awfully easy way to destroy something somebody has sacrificed actual points for.
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Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 13:34:55 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: STR Min (was something else)
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At 02:58 PM 6/8/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Michael Surbrook writes:
>
>> You can't have everything. If you want cinematic game then don't worry
>> about STR Min, that's for more 'realistic' games, just like STR Min for
>> guns. Stee Long recommends ignoring the STR Min for 'wilder' Dark
>> Champions games (where everyone can fire an Uzi one handed and often fire
>> two at once), and it sounds like you should here.
>
>I agree, especially if you are paying points for 'common' weapons. If you
>paid points for it, you can use it. You do not need Weapon Familiarities
>or sufficient Strength: if you bought it, you can use it.
I've always played that if you pay points for a weapon, Weapon
Familiarity with that specific weapon and any identical weapons is a part
of it. To use a similar weapon that you didn't pay points for, you need
Weapon Familiarity.
For example, If Sir Loin has paid points for the Sword of Cuisinart,
then he doesn't need need WF: Swords to use the Sword of Cuisinart
effectively. He might need it for the Sword of D'Tails, though, or a
ninja's katana.
I don't recall whether anything to this effect is in the Hero4 book, but
something on this issue should be mentioned (if only a paragraph) in Hero5.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 13:48:40 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Independant Limitation
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At 12:52 PM 6/8/1998 -0700, Lizard wrote:
>Focus+Indepenant:At some point, the Character WILL lose the object, for
>good, and his points along with it. The 'bonus' for an Independant object
>is very good, and the limits it imposes during day-to-day gameplay are
>trivial -- unless there's a very real risk of loss.
It's not necessarily this harsh. The character will lose the object, of
course; but it doesn't have to be gone for good. He just can't go spend
the same Character Points on an identical item (or even a non-identical
item, or anything else). If he wants to continue using those points, the
character must hunt down the item and get it back in his possession. This
could take several days, or several years, but he has a very real stake in
getting it back because it isn't as easily replaced as a simple Focus!
---
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Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 13:52:57 -0700
To: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net&> champs-l@sysabend.org
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Independant Limitation
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At 03:24 PM 6/8/98 -0500, Guy Hoyle wrote:
>On 6/8/98, at 1:12 PM, Lizard wrote:
>>>I agree that Independent objects are not automatically Foci, but how can
>>you destroy such an item if it isn't a Focus (and therefore has no BODY)?
>>There's not much info in the BBB.
>>>
>>Dispel it. This is how you get rid of an Independant curse, for example.
>
>This is the answer I've heard over the years, but I've never been able to
track down a reference to it in the books. It seems like an awfully easy
way to destroy something somebody has sacrificed actual points for.
>
Independant is a +2 limitation that doesn't actually 'limit' the power in
day-to-day play. The high value is due to the risk of real, permenant,
point loss.
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Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 16:17:38 -0500
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
To: champs-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Independant Limitation
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On 6/8/98, at 3:55 PM, Lizard wrote:
>At 03:24 PM 6/8/98 -0500, Guy Hoyle wrote:
>>On 6/8/98, at 1:12 PM, Lizard wrote:
>>>>I agree that Independent objects are not automatically Foci, but how can
>>>you destroy such an item if it isn't a Focus (and therefore has no BODY)?
>>>There's not much info in the BBB.
>>>>
>>>Dispel it. This is how you get rid of an Independant curse, for example.
>>
>>This is the answer I've heard over the years, but I've never been able to
>track down a reference to it in the books. It seems like an awfully easy
>way to destroy something somebody has sacrificed actual points for.
>>
>Independant is a +2 limitation that doesn't actually 'limit' the power in
>day-to-day play. The high value is due to the risk of real, permenant,
>point loss.
??? I don't understand how this addresses what I was asking. Sorry.
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To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Independant Limitation
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Guy Hoyle writes:
>> Dispel it. This is how you get rid of an Independant curse, for example.
> This is the answer I've heard over the years, but I've never been able to
> track down a reference to it in the books.
It is in Fantasy Hero, or the magic supplement for same.
> It seems like an awfully easy way to destroy something somebody has
> sacrificed actual points for.
Well, considering that a 30-point power with Independent costs 10 points.
Given that premise it is likely to be made Difficult to Dispell. Right
there you need a fairly large Dispell, on the order of 15d6-20d6 to stand a
reasonable chance of dispelling the effect. It might be easy, but it
certainly is not cheap.
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Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 14:45:42 -0700
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From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Independant Limitation
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At 04:17 PM 6/8/98 -0500, Guy Hoyle wrote:
>On 6/8/98, at 3:55 PM, Lizard wrote:
>
>>At 03:24 PM 6/8/98 -0500, Guy Hoyle wrote:
>>>On 6/8/98, at 1:12 PM, Lizard wrote:
>>>>>I agree that Independent objects are not automatically Foci, but how can
>>>>you destroy such an item if it isn't a Focus (and therefore has no BODY)?
>>>>There's not much info in the BBB.
>>>>>
>>>>Dispel it. This is how you get rid of an Independant curse, for example.
>>>
>>>This is the answer I've heard over the years, but I've never been able to
>>track down a reference to it in the books. It seems like an awfully easy
>>way to destroy something somebody has sacrificed actual points for.
>>>
>>Independant is a +2 limitation that doesn't actually 'limit' the power in
>>day-to-day play. The high value is due to the risk of real, permenant,
>>point loss.
>
>??? I don't understand how this addresses what I was asking. Sorry.
>
You were concerned that a Dispel was 'unfair', in that it was too easy to
make somone lose hard-earned points. I pointed out that's one of the
reasons Independant is such a large limitation -- because it IS easy to
kiss those points goodbye.
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Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 14:45:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dennis C Hwang <dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Gadget Belts ... ? about MP
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On Mon, 8 Jun 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> At 02:40 PM 6/8/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> >Bob Greenwade writes:
<snip discussion on multiple OAFs>
> But what if all three OAFs are medallions? Just rambling more or less
> of the top of my head here, I think it wouldn't be unreasonable to declare
> that trying to grab "one of his medallions -- it doesn't matter which one"
> should have some sort of OCV bonus. A +2 to OCV for every 2x acceptable
> objects in one place seems appropriate (basing that on modifiers for Size).
> So a character trying to grab any one of three OAF medallions would get a
> +3 OCV to Grab.
> Yes, this modifier would mean that it becomes easier to Grab a random
> object from a set than it is to hit the person carrying them. The merits
> of this are admittedly debatable. One the one hand, this is arguably
> unrealistic; is it really harder to punch Mr T than it is to grab one of
> his four medallions at random? (Not that one can't come up with plenty of
> good reasons to not try either one to begin with!) On the other hand, the
> character's getting a cost break on the points and should have to pay for
> it with increased difficulty in some form. So I'm up in the air on whether
> this should be a rule or not.
Well, once you factor in OCV penalties for Called Shots and Grabs/Disarms,
maybe it would balance out (I don't have the rulebooks with me, so I don't
know how the totals would end up).
--Dennis
*************************************************************
* dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu * xenopathologist at large! *
*************************************************************
* So...you're keeping me alive because you don't know *
* DOS. *
* *
* --Izzy to Gabriel *
* THE PROPHECY II *
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 15:42:09 -0700
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From: Joe Mucchiello
>
>
> At 12:42 AM 6/4/98 -0700, Filksinger wrote:
> >> The
> >> *POWER* has No Range Modifier, not the person using it.
>
> Although I'm very bored by this discussion, please call it No Range
> Penalty. That is what you are discussing, right? Every time I see NRM I
> have to remember what you all are talking about.
Very well. NRP, if I remember.
> Second, I have to disagree with Filksinger (and most others). You are 0
> OCV against a target at range if you cannot make a targeted PER roll
> against the target. If the special effect was sufficient to allow the NRP
> advantage on the power then the power will hit if the attacker makes a 0
> OCV attack against the target. That is how the game mechanic works. You
> are arguing against the game mechanic. If you don't like it, don't allow
> NRP on the power in question.
Player: "I, SuperRange Man, have decided to attack Mr. Bad with my SuperRange Beam. I have
the ability to hit any place on the planet, regardless of barriers in my way, with NRP."
GM: "You are kidding. You don't even know where he is. Only I know that." (Note: SRM is in
Little America, Antarctica, and Mr. B is in Maui.)
Player: "I attempt to find him by listening carefully. (Shakes dice) I get a 5 on my PER
roll."
GM: "Your PER roll fails."
Player: "Cool. That gives me a 0 OCV with NRP. I'll keep shooting until I hit him, since I
have 0 END."
GM: "O.K. Mr. Badhas a DCV of 7. You hit him on a 4 or less."
If a failed PER roll allows an attack at 0 OCV against any target in range, and the range
is planetary, then I could declare that I was attacking a man anywhere on the planet,
without even knowing where he was, at 0 OCV. After all, I can _always_ fail a PER roll.
If you rule that I have to know where he is, then I agree. That is, in fact, the whole
point of my question. How well do you have to know where he is, and what are the modifiers
for determining where he is at range when you have no sense that can detect him.
> >{This is Rat, I think- jm]
> >> Again, this has nothing to do with NRM. Ditto for the rest of your
> >> "points"; they are all issues of detecting the target, not using the
> >> power.
> >
> >OK, fine. Now, my original post asked how you would model those "issues".
> You have made it
> >clear that you wouldn't model them by tampering in any way with NRM, but
> you haven't
> >answered the original question - how should they be modeled?
>
> No, there are no issues. The special effect of power made NRP make sense.
> This implies that it will work. If you are saying that this circumstance
> is not covered by the special effect, but NRP still makes sense, put a
> limitation on the advantage: Must make PER roll against target. (-1/2)
I don't _want_ a requirement of a PER roll against a target. I want suggestions for a rule
that covers determining a person's approximate location at a range of miles, close enough
that I can attack with a 0 OCV. If the range is utterly irrelevant when the PER roll
fails, then we have a power that doesn't even require aiming, as it would not be necessary
to even know what country the target was in to hit with a 0 OCV.
Filksinger
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Clinging/Climbing
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 15:43:11 -0700
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From: Melinda and Steven Mitchell
>
>
> Filksinger writes:
> >No, it isn't a power that does damage. Its the logical effects of a power
> >which causes stress to be placed upon the wall if you are pulled or
> knocked
> >free from it.
>
> >If I put my hand against a wall, turn on Clinging, and pull, and my STR is
> >great enough, I will damage the wall.
>
> Not necessarily. Logically, there are three possible outcomes, based on
> which STR is higher--the STR required to pull the wall down, the Clinging
> STR, or the STR necessary to rip the character apart (into Clinging and
> non-Clinging pieces.)
>
> I would rule that a character can never use his own Clinging to rip himself
> up. So in your example above, you just cling more tightly. Unless of
> course you mean your regular "STR is great enough," not your clinging STR.
I wasn't clear, apparently. My Clinging STR is, by default, equal to my STR. I probably
should have said, "and my Clinging STR is great enough".
> So Clinging is just "glue". It can only damage something if it is stronger
> than two other opposing forces. Thus the original point from Joe that IF
> something rips the clinger off the wall, the wall could be damaged.
I must have been _really_ unclear. That was my point.
Filksinger
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Gadget Belts ... ? about MP
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 15:43:17 -0700
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From: Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin
>
>
<snip>
>
> No, the hammer and sickle together merely enhance Vanguard's own force
> field/energy reflector. An opponent would only be able to use them as
> melee weapons. This still sounds like a single Focus to me. The hammer is
> a Focus for the [presumably] Normal damage it does as a weapon, the sickle
> is a Focus for the [presumably] Killing damage it does as a weapon, and the
> pair of them together are a Focus for the added points of power Vanguard
> gets when using them to add to his natural ability.
I think that the requirement to use both is a Limitation, though its value is in question.
Consider:
Martial Master attacks Vanguard. He sees that Vanguard has two devices in his hands that
increase his power, so he decides on a Disarm.
Option #1: He takes Vanguard's sickle.
Vanguard loses his power to protect himself with both foci and his HKA.
Option #2: He takes Vanguard's hammer.
Vanguard loses his power to protect himself with both foci and his EB/HA.
Option #3: He attempts a more difficult maneuver, and takes both.
Vanguard loses all three sets of powers.
Note that in two of the three options, he loses his HKA, in two of three options, he loses
his EB/HA. But his defensive powers are lost in all three instances.
> I think in order to treat multiple focus objects as a Multiple Focus, you'd
> have to have a situation where losing one of them only costs you part of a
> given Power; say if you can Reflect incoming attacks at their source if you
> have both, but can only Deflect attacks if you have one or the other.
Losing the entire power when losing either focus is more Limiting than losing only part of
the power when losing either focus. A more disadvantageous situation deserves a greater
limitation.
> The fact that the hammer and sickle each have their own functions, in
> addition to and separate from the force field enhancement, may be confusing
> the issue. What if they were made of plastic, and had no function other
> than the force field enhancement. Would you feel differently then?
Possibly, but possibly not. This changes the dynamic significantly. I'd have to consider
this.
<snip>
>
> > What defines the Focus (or Foci) isn't the dynamic of the Power that
> >it's used with; it's the Limitation that the Power suffers. Either the
> >hammer or sickle could be taken away separately, so it would count (in my
> >mind anyway) as separate Foci.
>
> If the argument here is that it's easier to deprive Vanguard of his power
> enhancement by virtue of having two targets for a grab -- get either one
> and the power is gone -- that just seems like a function of Accessibility,
> and should be worth more of a Limitation, not less. You could choose to
> rule that the availability of several items like this makes the collective
> Focus, um, Readily Accessible (-3/4, or maybe bonuses to the Grab attempt
> if Vanguard can't hang on with both hands?), where each single piece would
> be merely Accessible (-1/2).
Seems to me to primarily be a matter of wording and its value as a Limitation, rather than
a serious disagreement as to specifics.
Filksinger
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Incompetent Players
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 15:57:17 -0700
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From: Ross Rannells
>
>
> <snip>
>
> What were you playing? For Call of Cthulhu that's about average, but for any
> HSR I would
> have thought that level of in competance impossible for a sentient being,
>
We were mercenaries, used supposedly for "plausible deniability" in a mission to Central
America, but in fact set up to fail by the people who sent us. When we survived and
learned too much, these same people put us on everyone's "Terminate with Extreme
Prejudice" list.
Besides, I'm not certain that he _was_ sentient.
Filksinger
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Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 19:41:52 -0400
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Handcuffs
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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> >1-3 charges = 12 pts, 4 charges = 13 pts, 6-8 charges = 14 pts
>
> 1 recoverable charge (-1.25) would be 10.
<Checking math...> Hmmm, I see the problem. I forgot to include the -1/2
Lim for 1 BODY Entangle (wasn't written with the rest. Oh, well, this was
just not my weekend for math computations, I guess :-)
Jeff Reid
Morfhis@compuserve.com
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Clinging and Knockback
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 17:21:14 -0700
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From: Mark Lemming
Guy Hoyle wrote:
>
> Waitaminnit. I think what's being described here is as follows. The
> Clingster is walking up the side of the Blaxter Building when Galagula the
> Galactic Giant appears behind him and attempts to pluck the Clingful
> Clinguist off the side of the building. Galagula has a STR of 150, more
> than sufficient to overcome the Clingster's mere Clinging STR of 150.
> However, since the Blaxter Building is mere steel-and-concrete, and the
> Clingster is pushing to his utmost to resist Galagula, won't a chunk of the
> building come with him when the World-Devouring Wonder plucks the Capable
> Crusader from the Building That Gets Demolished Every Other Issue?
>
> Guy
>
> PS A side-note: Could a guy with Clinging attempt to reach out and grap a
> fleeing felon, using his Clinging STR to pull his opponent back?
<<I'll have to agree with Rat in that there is nothing inherent in Clinging that
says an object that somebody is clinging to gets damaged from them peeling
bits off. This doesn't mean that a GM could rule special effects and the
like, but it probably won't take more than a portion of the surface off.>>
Well, that was all I thought we were talking about. I would assume that only a small part,
possibly paint, would come off, depending upon SFX, unless the really weak part was the
support beams.
<<This could get somewhat complicated:
Mr. Static with his 50 STR clinging is on the side of a 3/3 wall. Say Mr.
Kinda Strong tries to yank Static off with 40 STR. Since that damage would
blow a chunk
in the wall would Mr. Static come off with a part of the wall?>>
I would normally rule yes, but the SFX of Mr. Static's Clinging would determine how much.
If he used an adhesive, possibly no more than paint. If he has the ability to extent an
energy field for six feet through anything he clings to, then either nothing or he rips
out six feet of the wall, depending upon the STR of the Clinging vs the Def/BODY of the
wall.
<<Say the special effect of a character's clinging is that he's extending a
field over the entire building? Would someone then rip the entire building
out of the
ground if they tried to pluck the character off?
If the attacker and the Clinging were that strong, yes. However, that would be rare.
<<So my feeling is, the rules don't make a provision for it so it's up to the GM
and the player to figure out what happens due to special effect.>>
Agreed. However, if I had to rule w/o even knowing the SFX, I would probably rule that
typically you would damage the surface, if it was weak enough and the Clinging was strong
enough. This allows for a hero climbing a weak wall, just strong enough to hold him, to
worry seriously about what will happen if he tries to catch that falling safe.
<<Answer to Guy: You wouldn't have to grab around any particular part of the
fleeing felon, you could just stick your clinging on them. (Depending on
special effects of course)>>
Agreed.
<<Tanget: Who uses the knockback rules as written?>>
All the groups I've gamed with.
<<I just looked them over and
noticed that my group and I have been using either 3rd edition or a modified
version. We don't enforce the 1/2 DCV. People with flight who resist don't
have the all or nothing rule.>>
Not unreasonable. However, no group I gamed with ever had enough of a problem with
knockback to actually make house rules for this
<snip>
Filksinger
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From: "Woodie" <woodrow.w.smith@usa.net>
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Noisy
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 17:22:01 -0700
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Once upon a time, there was a Limitation, used in the original Fantasy Hero, called,
"Noisy". Noisy worked by declaring a -1/2 Limitation on any magical power that could be
easily detected by anyone with Magic Sense, even at considerable distances.
I was considering an old discussion on what was and was not an Invisible Power Effect that
needed to be purchased, and I realized that the degree of delectability of the power was a
significant issue.
I was considering a new Limitation, with a _very_ common SFX, thus making it worth writing
out.
A possible example is listed below, followed by problems I am considering at this time.
Any suggestions for changes, including name changes, etc, will be appreciated.
Noisy
A "noisy" power is a power which is easily detectable to some sense. The sense may be but
is not limited to sound. How much this limitation is worth depends upon how common the
sense, how "noisy" the power is, and whether or not the sense is typically Targeting.
Sense is (in the real world, for examples):
Very Common (Example: Hearing) -1/2
Common (Example: Radio Hearing, possessed by anyone with a radio on) -1/4
Uncommon (Example: Detect: Neutrons, possessed only by those with Geiger counters and
other, similar devices) -0
Targeting Sense -1/4
A very common real world example of this Limitation might be firearms. Firearms are very
noisy, and can be heard for blocks outside, at times. Since hearing is Very Common, but
not Targeting, you would get -1/2. A weapon using an inefficient older or hand-made
silencer might be standard, while a power as quiet as a high-quality modern silencer might
be considered Invisible. (Note that the silencer on the latest design for a side arm for
some Special Forces units was defined as having to be as quiet as the sound of a bullet
hitting a man.
Problems I have yet to address include deciding how hard it is to sense powers to begin
with. It seems unlikely they would all be as loud and easy to sense as firearms, but they
probably aren't whisper quiet. Another question is whether or not some powers, or some
power levels, are easier to sense than others. Yet a third question is, "Are powers that
don't reach out to others quieter?"
Note that if firearms are standard, there is no adjustment for power levels, and no power
is quieter than another, your force field is automatically as loud as pistol fire.
Filksinger
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Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 20:21:31 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
To: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
CC: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Handcuffs
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Michael Surbrook wrote:
> On Sun, 7 Jun 1998, Ross Rannells wrote:
>
> > > >> 13 Handcuffs: 5 DEF, 1 BODY (-1/2), Transparent to Attack (+1/2),
> > > >> Entangle can be negated by a sucessful Lockpicking roll (-1/4), No
> > > >> Range (-1/2), Target must be effective DCV of 0 to attach (-2),
> > > >> Can only Entangle two paired limbs (-1/2),
> > > >> 4 Recoverable Charges (-1/2), OAF (-1)
> > > >
> > > >1-3 charges = 12 pts, 4 charges = 13 pts, 6-8 charges = 14 pts
> > >
> > > 1 recoverable charge (-1.25) would be 10.
> >
> > Add in Independant (-2) and its only 8 points.
>
> Okay... but why add Independent? If I ever loose one, I loose the points
> and have to spend new EPs to get a new pair of handcuffs.
True, agents (ie Police officers) do tend to loose them also. They either buy a
new pair or requisition them and go trhough the paper work to get a new pair. For
a hero this isn't partactical, for an agent it may be.
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Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 22:02:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: CHAR: Watchmen Introduction
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QUIS CUSTODIET IPSOS CUSTODIES?
Who Watches the Watchmen?
WATCHMEN INTRODUCTION
In 1986-1987, DC Comics released possibly the most ground breaking 12
issues of sequential graphic storytelling ever created. The series was
"Watchmen", and within its approximately 400 pages is a strange
murder-mystery that takes a close look at how 'real' superheroes might
actually operate in a much more realistic world than the four-color comic
norm.
The material below was taken from four sources. The first, naturally, was
the 12 issue "Watchman" maxi-series by Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons. The
second was the DC Heroes module "Taking Out the Trash", written by Ray
Winninger with a mini-sourcebook co-written by Alan Moore detailing the
Minutemen. The third was the DC Heroes RPG, Second Edition, which
presented more up-to-date versions of the major characters than the
orginal DC Heroes RPG. Finally, here was the "Annotated Watchmen",
written by Doug Atkinson and located at
http://student-www.uchicago.edu/users/jbfliege/watchmen.html.
The writeups I created were adapted from the character sheets given in the
DC Heroes module and RPG. Translation was performed using the DC Heroes
to Hero System conversion notes in Adventurer's Club #10 as a guide.
Skills and disads were taken from the source, or were added based on
personal opinion of what the character should have.
A Brief History of the Watchmen Universe:
The universe portrayed in the world of "Watchmen" is our own... well, our
own that until 1938, that is. In October of that year, a man calling
himself 'Hooded Justice' appeared, becoming the world's first costumed
crimefighter. His appearance and actions set off a spark that would
result in numerous other costumed adventurers appearing, with no less than
seven active in and around New York alone.
Things remained relatively 'normal' (if you discount costumed
crimefighters battling with similarly attired 'supervillains') until
November 22, 1959. This day marked the birth of Doctor Manhattan, and the
end of the world as we would know it.
Dr. Manhattan had been a relatively normal physicist by the name of Jon
Osterman until an experiment with an 'intrinsic field separator' altered
his body structure. This new superhero was 'super' in more than just
name. He had complete control of his atomic structure and could teleport,
walk through walls, melt tanks with a wave of his hand, disassemble an
object without touching it and demonstrated a host of other powers.
Along with Doctor Manhattan, several other new superheroes appeared,
following in the footsteps of their 1940's ancestors. They fought crime
and proved to be quite successful, so successful in fact, that in 1977 the
Keene Act was passed, outlawing costumed vigilantes. Some heroes retired,
some received special government sanction, and some went more
'underground', refusing to quit their private war on the criminal
underworld.
The Watchmen Universe Today:
The Watchmen graphic novel covers events between October 12 to November 2,
1985. Naturally, due to the nature of the story-telling, there are many
flashbacks, detailing events as far back as the late 30's. In any event,
the world depicted is highly different than our own. Some of the major
differences are:
1 - Comic Books: Superheroes as a comic genre died out in the
early to mid-50's, with pirate comics replacing them. At the end of the
"Watchmen" series, horror comics have become popular.
2 - Electric Cars: Dr. Manhattan makes the electric engine
feasible. By 1985, electric cars are everywhere and gasoline-powered cars
seem virtually nonexistent.
3 - Genetic Engineering: The most obvious product is Bubastis,
Ozymandias ' giant lynx. Chapter 1 shows what looks to be a four-legged,
flightless bird as well.
4 - Nixon: Richard Milhouse Nixon is serving an unprecedented
fifth term in 1985, following his election in 1968. The 22nd Amendment
was repealed in 1975 allowing him to run again and again.
5 - Space Travel: Chapter 1 has a newspaper headline reading
"Congress Approves Lunar Silos". It would seem that there is a lunar base
of some sort and significantly more space travel in the "Watchmen"
universe than in ours.
6 - Vietnam is the 51st State: Following Dr. Manhattan's
involvement in the Vietnam War in 1971, the Viet Cong surrendered in just
two months. In 1985, Vietnam became the 51st state.
Major Costumed Characters in the Watchmen Universe:
Captain Metropolis: A former Marine, Captain Metropolis was the founder of
the original Minutemen. A homosexual who carried on a long running affair
with Hooded Justice (see), he died in a car crash in 1974.
Comedian: The Comedian was the longest active costumed adventurer until
his death in 1985. He started out with the Minutemen, eventually becoming
a government operative in 1942. He remained active through the 60's and
70', fighting in Vietnam, suppressing riots and freeing the hostages held
in Iran. It should be noted that he can be linked to a number of deaths,
including Hooded Justice, John F. Kennedy and Woodward and Bernstein (the
reporters who uncovered the Watergate scandal). It's the Comedian's
death, in 1985, that sets off the chain of events covered in the
"Watchmen" series.
Dollar Bill: A former star athlete, Dollar Bill was the in-house superhero
of a New York bank and a member of the Minutemen. He was shot and killed
in 1946 trying to prevent a bank robbery.
Doctor Manhattan: The worlds first (and so far, only) true superhuman,
Doctor Manhattan was 'created' in a lab accident in 1959. His existence
helped change the balance of world power, resulting in the crisis that
Ozymandias (see) works so hard to prevent. It is this crisis, and
Ozymandias' actions to prevent it, that forms the primary plot to
"Watchmen".
Hooded Justice: The first costumed superhero, Justice got his start in
1938. He was active until 1955 when he was murdered by the Comedian
(see). A homosexual, he had a long affair with Captain Metropolis (see),
although he disguised this fact by using Silk Spectre as cover.
Moloch: A former stage-magician, Moloch first appeared in the 40's and
went on to become a powerful crimelord by the 60's. In the late 60's, his
criminal empire collapsed and Moloch spent the 70's in prison. He ended
up living poor and alone in a tiny apartment. Moloch was murdered in
1985.
Mothman: A bored and rich playboy, Mothman developed his costumed persona
to fight crime and boredom. In 1954 he was determined to be a Communist
sympathizer HUAC (House UnAmerican Activities Committee). This drove him
to drink and resulted in his admittance to an alcohol rehab center in
1962.
Nite Owl I: A New York police officer, Nite Owl was one of the first
superheroes. A member of the Minutemen, he was active until 1962. Nite
Owl was killed in 1985 by a gang of thugs who mistook him for Nite Owl II
(see).
Nite Owl II: Inheritor to the Nite Owl mantle, Nite Owl II used an
impressive array of gadgets to fight crime from 1962 to 1977. He retired
with the passing of the Keene Act, eventually coming out of retirement in
1985.
Ozymandias: The 'world's smartest man', Ozymandias uses a full 100% of his
brain power. He is a virtual superhuman himself, with athletic skill and
intellectual prowess far beyond those of anyone else around him.
Realizing the self-destructive path that the world is on as early as 1966,
he devises an elaborate plan to save mankind from itself.
Rorschach: A former garment worker, Rorschach started in 1963. He worked
extensively with Nite Owl II until Nite Owl quit in 1977. Rorschach
underwent a drastic change of personality following his investigation of a
kidnapping case in 1975, becoming even more violent in his treatment of
criminals. Rorschach was killed by Dr. Manhattan in 1985.
Silhouette: An aristocrat from Austria, Silhouette fled to America to
escape Hitler. She fought crime for the sheer thrill of it. A lesbian,
she was expelled from the Minutemen in 1946 and killed shortly thereafter.
Silk Spectre I: An member of the Minutemen, Silk Spectre fought crime in
order to make money. Her initial exploits were mere publicity stunts,
designed to cash in on the superhero 'fad'. She was eventually succeeded
by her daughter, Silk Spectre II (see).
Silk Spectre II: Daughter of the original Silk Spectre, Silk Spectre II
debuted in 1966. She quickly fell in love with Doctor Manhattan, staying
with him until he left Earth in 1985. When we had last seen her, she had
joined up with Nite Owl II and intended to reactivate her crime fighting
career with him.
Other Costumed Characters in the Watchman Universe:
In Chapter III of "Under the Hood" (found in Chapter II of "Watchmen")
Nite Owl states that "there were at least seven costumed vigilantes
operating on or around America's West Coast." Other than the characters
described above, these other heroes are never mentioned, although there
must have been enough of them to warrant the Police Riots and Keene Act of
1977. On the other hand, we are presented with a interesting (if short)
list of 'supervillians', even if most are only mentioned in passing. They
are:
Captain Axis: A Nazi operative, Captain Axis was active during World War
II.
Captain Carnage: A masochist, Captain Carnage dressed up as a supervillain
in order to get beat up. He encountered Nite Owl II, Silk Spectre II and
Rorschach. According to Nite Owl II, Rorschach dropped him down an
elevator shaft.
The Big Figure: A mob boss active in the mid-60's, the Big Figure looks to
stand a grand total of four foot zero. He is killed by Rorschach in 1985
during a prison riot.
King Mob: A supervillain active during the 40's, the only clue we have to
his nature is "King Mob's Ape Mask" seen displayed in the Minutemen
headquarters.
Liquidator: Active during the 40's, Liquidator killed Silhouette after she
was expelled from the Minutemen.
The Screaming Skull: Another Nazi operative during World War II, the
Screaming Skull apparently found religion and became a born-again
Christian in the early 80's.
The Twilight Lady: A vice-queen operating in the late-60's, the Twilight
Lady was romantically involved with Nite Owl II at one point in his
career.
Underboss: An underworld crimelord active in the mid-60's, the Underboss
was taken down by Rorschach and Nite Owl II soon after they teamed up.
Paranormals in the Watchmen Universe:
Although the "Watchmen" universe is meant to be 'realistic', it can be
inferred that paranormals other than Dr. Manhattan do exist. Ozymandias
is one of these people. His heightened mental and physical abilities are
virtually superhuman, making him a true paranormal. There is also mention
of a Robert Deschaines, a 'psychic and clairvoyant', whose brain
Ozymandias clones for his own purposes. Ozymandias also states that
'...sensitives world-wild will have bad dreams for years to come." So, we
can presume that certain forms of psi/esper poers (such as minor
telepathy, emotion sensing, clairvoyance, per- and retrocognition etc.)
exist in the "Watchmen" universe.
The true origins of the main Watchan Characters:
The central characters in the series "Watchmen" are based upon a number of
characters originally published by Charlton Comics. These characters were
acquired by DC Comics and later incorporated into the DC universe. Alan
Moore wanted to use the original, Charlton versions of the characters, but
ended up redesigning them into their current incarnations after DC Comics
said 'no' to that idea.
Watchmen Character Charlton Character
Comedian Peacemaker
Dr. Manhattan Captain Atom
Nite Owl I & II Blue Beetle I & III
Ozymandias Thunderbolt
Rorschach The Question
Silk Spectre Nightshade
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Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 22:05:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: CHAR: Cpt Metropolis
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CAPTAIN METROPOLIS
(Neslon Gardner)
Val CHA Cost Roll Notes
15 STR 5 12- 200kg; 3d6
13 DEX 9 12- OCV: 4 / DCV: 4
13 CON 6 12-
10 BODY 0 11-
10 INT 0 11- PER Roll 11-
11 EGO 2 11- ECV: 4
15 PRE 5 12- PRE Attack: 3d6
10 COM 0 11-
5 PD 2 Total: 5 PD
5 ED 2 Total: 5 ED
3 SPD 7 Phases: 4, 8, 12
6 REC 0
26 END 0
25 STUN 0
Total Characteristics Cost: 38
Movement: Running: 6" / 12"
Swimming: 2" / 4"
Cost Powers & Skills
Combat Training:
8 Combat Skill Levels: +1 with Combat
5 Weapons Training: +1 with Ranged Combat
3 HTH Training: +1 with Judo
Martial Arts: Judo
Maneuver OCV DCV Damage
5 Block +1 +3 Block, Abort
3 Joint Lock +0 -1 Grab one limb, 25 STR to hold
3 Slam +0 +1 2 1/2d6 +v/5; Target Falls
3 Takedown +1 +1 3d6; Target Falls
Military and Background Skills:
2 AK: New York 11-
3 Breakfall 12-
3 Bureacratics 12-
3 Deduction 11-
2 KS: Law 11-
2 KS: Marine Corps 11-
2 KS: Police Procedure 11-
3 Paramedic 11-
2 PS: Marine Lieutenant 11-
3 Streetwise 12-
5 Tactics 12-
2 TF: Ground Vehicles
2 WF: Small Arms
64 Total Powers & Skills Cost
102 Total Character Cost
50+ Disadvantages
Psychological Limitation:
10 Insecure
15 Wants to 'prove' himself
15 Secret ID: Nelson Gardner; Homosexual
12 Experience
102 Total Disadvantage Points
Description:
Captain Metropolis was thin and asthmatic as a child, but worked out
extensively to counteract this. In college he played football and went on
the join the Marines. He gained the rank of Lieutenant, and used his
military knoweldge and training to fight crime. Captain Metropolis
founded the Minutemen, and tried to found a new hero group (the
Crimebusters) in 1966 to counter a number of perceived threats (like
'black unrest' and 'anti-war demonstrations').
A closet homosexual, Captain Metropolis had a long-running affair with
Hooded Justice. His exact motivations for crime-fighting are unknown,
the "Annoted Watchmen" states his motivation is fighting 'social ills',
although one has to wonder at his choices (see paragraph above). It is
Captain Metropolis' abortive attempt to form a new hero team (and his
comments that someone needs to do something) that spur Ozymandias to
formulate his plans. Captain Metropolis was killed in 1974 in a car
crash.
Note: Captain Metropolis usually carries several pairs of handcuffs for
restraining criminals.
(Captain Metropolis created by Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons,
character sheet created by Michael Surbrook)
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* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
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Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 22:09:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: CHAR: Dollar Bill
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DOLLAR BILL
(William Brady)
Val CHA Cost Roll Notes
20 STR 10 13- 400kg; 4d6
17 DEX 21 12- OCV: 6 / DCV: 6
15 CON 10 12-
13 BODY 6 12-
10 INT 0 11- PER Roll 11-
10 EGO 0 11- ECV: 3
18 PRE 8 13- PRE Attack: 3 1/2d6
14 COM 4 12-
8 PD 4 Total: 8 PD
8 ED 5 Total: 8 ED
3 SPD 3 Phases: 4, 8, 12
7 REC 0
30 END 0
31 STUN 0
Total Characteristics Cost: 69
Movement: Running: 8" / 16"
Swimming: 2" / 4"
Cost Powers & Skills
Combat Training:
6 HTH Training: +2 with Boxing
Martial Art: Boxing
Maneuver OCV DCV Damage
4 Block +2 +2 Block, Abort
4 Cross +0 +2 6d6 Strike
5 Hook -2 +1 8d6 Strike
3 Jab +2 +1 4d6 Strike
Background Skills:
2 Running: +2" (8" Total), END 2
5 Money: Wealth
3 Acrobatics 12-
2 AK: New York 11-
3 Climbing 12-
2 KS: First National Bank of New York 11-
2 KS: Football 11-
3 Persuasion 13-
2 PS: Football Player 11-
2 PS: Security Guard 11-
1 TF: Car
49 Total Powers & Skills Cost
118 Total Character Cost
75+ Disadvantages
15 Secret ID: William Brady
5 Unluck: 1d6
10 Watched: First National Bank of New York (MoPow, NCI, LimGeo) 11-
13 Experience
118 Total Disadvantage Points
Description:
Dollar Bill was a Kansas athletic star who was recruited to be the
'in-house' superhero of the First National Bank of New York. In "Under
the Hood", Hollis Mason describes him as a 'nice guy'. Dollar Bill has no
lines in "Watchman", so his actually personality is hard to determine. He
was killed in 1966, shot when his cape became entangled in a revolving
door.
The following quote (from the "Under the Hood" portion of "Watchman" sums
up Dollar Bill quite well. "...originally a star college athlete from
Kansas who was actually employed as an in-house super-hero by one of the
major national banks, when they realized that the masked man fad made
being able to brag about having a hero of your own to protect your
customer's money a very interesting publicity project... While attempting
to stop a raid at one of his employer's banks, his cloak became entangled
in the bank's revolving door and he was shot dead at point-blank range
before he could free it."
(Dollar Bill created by Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons, character sheet
created by Michael Surbrook)
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* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
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Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 22:12:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: CHAR: Hooded Justice
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HOODED JUSTICE
('Rolf Mueller')
Val CHA Cost Roll Notes
30 STR 30 15- 1600kg; 6d6
15 DEX 15 12- OCV: 5 / DCV: 5
20 CON 20 13-
15 BODY 10 12-
10 INT 0 11- PER Roll 11-
12 EGO 4 11- ECV: 4
20 PRE 10 13- PRE Attack: 4d6
10 COM 0 11-
10 PD 6 Total: 10 PD
8 ED 4 Total: 8 ED
3 SPD 5 Phases: 4, 8, 12
10 REC 0
40 END 0
40 STUN 0
Total Characteristics Cost: 99
Movement: Running: 6" / 12"
Swimming: 2" / 4"
Cost Powers & Skills
Combat Training:
10 HTH Skill: +2 with HTH
Background Skills:
2 AK: New York 11-
4 English
0 German (native)
3 Interrogation 13-
2 KS: Circus and circus life 11-
2 KS: New York Underworld 11-
2 PS: Circus Strongman 11-
3 Stealth 12-
3 Streetwise 13-
31 Total Powers & Skills Cost
130 Total Character Cost
75+ Disadvantages
15 Distinctive Features: Great Size
Psychological Limitation:
10 Racist ideology (KKK member and anti-communist)
15 Violent, especially towards criminals
15 Secret ID: 'Rolf Muller', Homosexual
130 Total Disadvantage Points
Description:
Hooded Justice was the first costumed hero to appear in the Watchmen
universe. He debuted October 14, 1938, assaulting three members of a
street gang and hospitalizing all three. He then waged a rather
destructive war on the New York underworld, proving so successful that the
police tended to overlook the fact that he frequently maimed or crippled
his targets.
The true identity of the Hooded Justice was never discovered, although
he tended to use the alias of "Rolf Muller". Nite Owl describes
him as "one of the biggest man I'd ever seen," and Watchmen module "Taking
Out the Trash" describes him as 'inhuman' in size and strength. In any
event, his massive strength was a considerable asset to him in
crimefighting.
Hooded Justice, like most of the Watchmen 'superheroes' is a psychological
disaster area. He is motivated by a deep disgust for his and hatred at
the shortcomings of his parents, a hatred that led him adopting his
costumed identity. He is a rabid anti-Communist, and openly supported
Hitler in statements made in an interview in 1940. Finally, on top of all
that, Hooded Justice was a homosexual and had a long-running affair with
Captain Metropolis.
Hooded Justice finally met his end at the hands of the Comedian, who
murdered him in 1955 as revenge for Justice's beating the Comedian
following the Comedian's attempted rape of Silk Spectre I.
(Hooded Justice created by Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons, character sheet
created by Michael Surbrook)
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* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
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Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 20:09:36 -0700
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Noisy
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At 05:22 PM 6/8/1998 -0700, Woodie wrote:
>Noisy
>
>A "noisy" power is a power which is easily detectable to some sense. The
sense may be but
>is not limited to sound. How much this limitation is worth depends upon
how common the
>sense, how "noisy" the power is, and whether or not the sense is typically
Targeting.
The question here is, how easy is easy? Offhand, I'd say +1 to all PER
Rolls per 10 Active Points in the Power. This could become +1 PER for
every 5 Active Points for double the Limitation.
>Sense is (in the real world, for examples):
>
>Very Common (Example: Hearing) -1/2
>Common (Example: Radio Hearing, possessed by anyone with a radio on) -1/4
>Uncommon (Example: Detect: Neutrons, possessed only by those with Geiger
counters and
>other, similar devices) -0
>Targeting Sense -1/4
I think this looks good; at the very least, it's a good starting place.
>Problems I have yet to address include deciding how hard it is to sense
powers to begin
>with. It seems unlikely they would all be as loud and easy to sense as
firearms, but they
>probably aren't whisper quiet. Another question is whether or not some
powers, or some
>power levels, are easier to sense than others. Yet a third question is,
"Are powers that
>don't reach out to others quieter?"
On the whole, I'd say that, by default, the use of a Power should be
about as perceptible as a person. If a PER Roll would be necessary to
sense a person, then it would be necessary to sense a Power in use. (I'm
also of a mind that if you normally wouldn't have to make a PER Roll, but
the total penalty for making a PER Roll if you did have to make one would
be -10 or more, then you still have to make one, but at +10 against the
given penalties. I'm not firm on those numbers, though, and could change
my mind given any reasonable argument.)
If you want a variation by power level, I'd suggest that 30 Active
Points (the amount needed to Summon a standard Normal) be equal to +/-0 to
PER, +/-1 per 10 Active Points up or down.
As a separate thought, we could determine that the three Senses to which
the Power must be detectable include one common Targeting Sense (which
basically means Normal Sight), one common non-Targeting Sense (usually
Normal Hearing, but sometimes Normal Smell or Touch), and one uncommon
Sense (usually a Detect), all at the same PER level.
Then, as a special option (and it would *have* to be an option), a
player could trade +/-1, +/-2, or +/-3 to PER, respectively, from one Sense
to another.
As for some Powers being automatically "louder" than others, I think
there could be an argument for making Constant Powers quieter than Instant
Powers. With an Instant Power, you have only one chance to perceive it --
when it's used. With a Constant Power, you can perceive it at any time
during the Phase in which it's used, and anyone who comes into the area
during that time has a chance (assuming that a Roll would even be needed).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Advantages effecting each other (was Re: Weapon Hands Question)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 23:58:04 -0500
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Len Carpenter writes:
>The 0 END Cost Advantage shouldn't, as I interpret it, increase the Active
>Cost of a power for purpose of determining its STR Min. That's
>unbalanced. Consider that Reduced END shouldn't increase the Active Cost
>of a power when determining an Area Effect range. A 6d6 EB with the Area
>Effect (Radius) Advantage (+1) should have a 3" radius whether it's bought
>at normal END Cost, 1/2 END, or 0 END. Otherwise, the Reduced END
>Advantage becomes a cheap way to boost a power's effect in some cases,
>getting two benefits (increased radius and reduced END) for the price of
>one. That too is unbalanced, though in the character's favor rather than
>against it.
I long ago gave up an attempt to make sense of it. Just when I thought I
had it figured out, something would change. Not only that, it's a pain to
calculate. I only use the active cost to calculate Real, minus to requires
a skill roll, and END. Everything else goes strictly off base. (I know
its not in the rules, but I've been doing this for years with no apparent
play balance problems.)
Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 00:11:17 -0500
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Michael Surbrook writes:
>One does not slash with a bastard or great sword, one cleaves. Yes you
>might use the upper third of the blade, but not as if it was a fencing
>rapier. You actually want to hit a bit down the blade to transfer maximum
>energy, must like a baseball player whatns to hit with the 'sweet spot' of
>the bat, which is *not* the tip.
But the point (parden the pun) is that the part you hit with is somewhere
out near the end of the blade. It's further out on a great sword than a
bastard sword. It doesn't matter whether it is the tip or not. My point
was that the size of the arc described by the "sweet spot" matters.
Of course, I can also see yours and Len's point that the uncoiling of the
body could easily produce more velocity than is lost by the difference in
the arc between 2 handed and 1 handed.
Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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Subject: Noisy
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 00:50:05 -0500
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Woodie writes:
>A "noisy" power is a power which is easily detectable to some sense. The
sense >may be but
>is not limited to sound. How much this limitation is worth depends upon
how >common the
>sense, how "noisy" the power is, and whether or not the sense is typically
Targeting.
We've been using noisy in our FH game for some time. We just defined it as
"visible, only much worse." It's always worth a -1/4 more than visible.
If the power isn't that noticable, then only the -1/4 "visible" limitation
can be taken. An example:
A normal fireball (whatever that is :-) is just visible (for no points,
because it's a standard power. It can be heard, seen, and smelled like any
large ball of explosive flame. However, the Sphere of Flaming Death makes
hair stand up on END within 100 yards. It sounds like a Mac truck flying
through the air, and when it hits, it makes a fireball like someone smoked
one to many at the gas station. No "gas station" level of noisy, no extra
-1/4 limit on visible.
A flaming force field comparable to a fireball would get a -1/4, while the
"gas station" force field gets the full -1/2. It's a pretty crude
mechanic, but it seems to get the job down.
Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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Subject: RE: STR Min (was something else)
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 01:38:07 -0500
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><sigh> Then what is the point of this disscusion? What this boils down
>to is this:
I'm not trying to frustrate you, although I can see how it might seem like
it.
>Steve: Why does this STR Min work like this?
>Mike (& Len): Because it's broken. Realisticly it should work like this.
>Steve: That's nice but I don't want realism, I want cinematic.
>Mike: Then why ask the question?
Because I didn't say that I wanted _complete_ (i.e. wild martial arts,
superheroic) cinematic. I said I wanted _more_ cinematic than what your
system would yield. Specifically, I'm trying to create the feel of the
Forgotten Realms novels by Greenwood and Salvatore (not some of the less
talents, which are more on the grittier side.) The PC aren't anywhere near
the power level of the main characters of those books, but they are
powerful enough to be involved in those kind of stories. (And they have
reasonable expectations that some could obtain that power, given several
years of playing.)
Now, I've been working on this for some time, and I'm fairly close in a lot
of ways, but there is always a tension between the realism and the cinema
in this setting. There has to be, because Realms characters take licks,
and sometimes those licks take them down fast. But I don't really think I
can exactly convey what I want. So instead, I'm trying to understand how
your system works, so that I can adapt it to my campaign. I can't just
take it whole cloth. I _need_ the full range of STR min to make a more
vibrant distinction in characters. On the other hand, I'm not satisfied
with the STR minimums in FH, so I'm trying to come up with an alternative.
If you where going to adapt your system to play at the upper reaches of
heroic realism, just creeping into the edge of cinema, how would you change
it? Or is that a ludicrous question?
>I look at your comment and my first thought is "abandon STR Min". You've
>stated people pay for the weapons with points, so either dump STR Min, or
>minimalize it. Make 2-handed -1/4 and forget about the hand-and-half lim.
>If you want the game you describe, treat it like a supers game and let
>everyone just build whatever they want.
I never stated that anyone paid for weapons with points. It's very much a
heroic level game in the full Hero tradition. What may have given you the
idea, was that I said that the PCs sometimes find metals with "points" in
them. Just think of it as a magic item that isn't yet made, but that the
character found the points for. They have to forge the sword instead of
just finding it in the lair.
>You can't have everything. If you want cinematic game then don't worry
>about STR Min, that's for more 'realistic' games, just like STR Min for
>guns. Stee Long recommends ignoring the STR Min for 'wilder' Dark
>Champions games (where everyone can fire an Uzi one handed and often fire
>two at once), and it sounds like you should here.
Too cinematic for me. That tension again. Realms dwarves do some fairly
cinematic things with those axes, but they don't run around with a large
axe in each hand.
>> What specifically did you not like about it? You might could do what I
>> did, only increase the cost every 3 points of STR, instead of 5. That
>> would be fairly realistic. I don't see how anyone full grown male could
>> avoid getting at least a 13 STR, with moderate exercise.
>Becuase it basically represents the idea that the GM is forcingt the
>players to fit into a specific character type. Take a look at your
>method. Who's going to even try to have a stat near 20? A 20 STR would
>cost 15 points, a 20 DEX would cost 45 points. If you are dealing with
>100 point normals, no one is going to want to cough up that much for a
>characteristic and everyone is going to end up with the same stats.
I think I'm missing some reasoning on your part. I don't see how you can
get to the above from what I said. Bottom line, we have PCs with stats all
over the board, from 8 to 25, depending on the stat. My change was done,
in part, to create _more_ variety, and it has. Of course, it also works
because we are only charging 1 point for the first 5 CP of CON and EGO, and
we broke DEX down into REF, DEX, and TECH (ala Fuzion) with the same cost
structure. (When we converted the characters, everyone was within 5 points
of the original total. So it balances out.) A 17 costs 9 CP, and a 18
costs 11 CP. That's just 2 and 3 CP more, respectively. It also makes the
"blended" character reasonable to play. So it increases the options.
Think about it this way. Given a certain level of defenses, buying the
first few STR is just reaching the level where you can "play". If the
average is 6 DEF, then damage class 1-3 are practially equal. But damage
class 4 is useful, 5 even more so, and so on until you reach the level
where you can just squash your opponents. Likewise, if OCV and DCV are
controlled, then going from a 5 to a 6 is _more_ valuable than from a 4 to
a 5, even though DEX normally costs the same. Besides, I have yet to see a
decent way to handle characteristic maximums with lots of different races
(including the ways in AC), that didn't either penalize the non-human
severely or grant them way too much for their points.
>It short the GM is saying 'I don't trust you to role-play, so I'm going to
>force you to build things like this."
Where did that come from? What I _explicitly_ said to the players was,
"Now you don't have to keep asking my permission to buy up stats" (or
skills or anything else on this escalating cost--we use the same principle
all over). "Instead, you can buy anthing you want (within these very broad
and well-defined limits), and it will fit in the campaign." And they have.
Granted, my players probably don't fit the normal mold. They are uniformly
great role-players, wonderful at puzzles, terrible at tactics (although
they are learning--due to that incident with the water trolls :-), and not
a power-gamer in the bunch. In fact, what's the opposite of a power-gamer?
Someone who is so poor at understanding odds and the mechanics that they
inadvertently build unbalancing characters and stomp on another player's
turf? I just got tired of having to approve everything, because they
couldn't understand why buying their STR up from 10 to 13 was going to
cause everyone else to want to buy their STR up as well.
Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net>
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Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 01:53:30 -0500
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Michael Surbrook writes:
>As I have ssaid before, the system is broken for heroic games. I did give
>you my suggestion on the matter (new weapons rules on my website) but you
>discarded them as 'too realistic' for you more cinematic game.
>Steve, seriously... what do you want as an answer? What are you trying to
>accomplish (or fix) in your game? This discussion is going nowhere.
Well, as I mostly explained in the previous post, not all heroic game are
created equal. I suppose what I want is to pick and choose on the realism,
in order to create the kind of outcomes that I'm trying to simulate. The
only way I can do that is to understand why something is set the way it is.
What makes it even harder, is I'm trying to stay in the ball park of
standard heroic FH, because I know my game is very close to balanced now.
Example: I don't have enough practical experience with real world weapons
to know. If you say that the +1 OCV on most blades is unrealistic, then I
believe you. But then, I've read 30+ Forgotten Realms novels and numerous
supplements--enough to know that swords are significantly faster in the
Realms than in reality. So the +1 OCV stays for me. It's not a
disagreement with you--it's just that once I understand your reasoning for
dropping the +1, I can make a sensible decision on whether to adopt your
change or not.
OTOH, weapon size and character size seems fairly realistic in the Realms
(at least, they are trying to make it so). Right now, I'm just relying on
GM fiat and common sense to decide what a character can wield. As you may
have guessed by now--I hate GM fiat, particularly when I'm the GM. How can
I make a good decision on a halfling, when I'm only guessing on a human?
So when you say that the heroic weapons are broken, I want to understand
why. Maybe I'll be better able to answer those questions.
Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net>
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Subject: Re: Re: Weapon Hands Question)
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 02:05:40 -0500
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Steve Peterson writes:
>In a message dated 6/7/98 4:46:38 PM, mdmitche@advicom.net wrote:
>>Which Melee Weapon Chart are you talking about? The one in the HSR has
>>
>>"Broadsword, +1 OCV, 1d6+1 HKA, 13 STR" This is identical in FH. If
>>
>>anything in those books can be believed, the 13 STR comes from 20 active
>>
>>HKA, + 5 active for the +1 OCV. So (Active/2) = 12.5, rounded up to 13.
>>
>>Or did I just rationalize this trying to make sense of it all?
>>
>The chart there (and the system for generating weapons) has problems with
>break points. The weapon list in 1st Edition Fantasy Hero is much better,
and
>resolves most of the problems you're having with the weapons.
>The problem with using Limitations to generate STR Mins is that it's too
crude
>a method, and doesn't hit break points properly. I used a method more akin
to
>the rules for creating Martial Arts in order to generate a balanced weapon
>list. I understand that in reality the STR required to wield really large
two-
>handed weapons was not close to human maximum. But STR is a convenient and
>expected way to help balance out weapons in game terms. You have to
remember
>that we're trying to balance weapons in terms that are usable in the game.
For
>instance, heavy armor really didn't make you that much easier to hit, per
se;
>the real effect is that you get tired much more quickly wearing heavy
armor,
>and therefore you slow down, and therefore you become easier to hit.
Modeling
>that is difficult to handle; it's much easier to just reduce a character's
DCV
>for wearing heavy armor, and most player's don't have a problem with that.
I hope you can understand why that is both enlightening and terribly
frustrating to me. I don't mind all the balancing in game terms, for STR
or anything else. In fact, the final result is oh-so-close to what I
wanted. The trouble is that the actual method used was not the method
presented (although Ninja Hero did open my eyes quite a bit).
Since I just got on the web a month ago, I have no idea how long you guys
have been doing this, but can you guys still remember having a handful of
books, with nothing but the occasional nugget in AC to explain why
something works? Over the last 11 years, I daresay I've spent _days_ just
trying to make sense of those weapon charts. Maybe I'm more Type A than I
thought :-)
Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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From: ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net
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To: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net&> champs-l@sysabend.org,
Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 04:00:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Independant Limitation
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> >>>This is the answer I've heard over the years, but I've never been able to
> >>track down a reference to it in the books. It seems like an awfully easy
> >>way to destroy something somebody has sacrificed actual points for.
> >>>
> >>Independant is a +2 limitation that doesn't actually 'limit' the power in
> >>day-to-day play. The high value is due to the risk of real, permenant,
> >>point loss.
> >
> >??? I don't understand how this addresses what I was asking. Sorry.
> >
> You were concerned that a Dispel was 'unfair', in that it was too easy to
> make somone lose hard-earned points. I pointed out that's one of the
> reasons Independant is such a large limitation -- because it IS easy to
> kiss those points goodbye.
Ah, that makes some sense. Sorry, Independant has always been a bit
confusing for me.
Guy
>
----------------------------------
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com)
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf
and the PANGAEA Project!
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org&>
"woodrow.w.smith@usa.net" <woodrow.w.smith@usa.net>
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 98 12:19:52
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Noisy
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On Mon, 8 Jun 1998 17:22:01 -0700, Woodie wrote:
>Once upon a time, there was a Limitation, used in the original Fantasy Hero, called,
>"Noisy". Noisy worked by declaring a -1/2 Limitation on any magical power that could be
>easily detected by anyone with Magic Sense, even at considerable distances.
Not quite; AFAIR any spellcaster nearby *automatically* knew that a
spell had gone off.
qts
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 09:51:49 -0500 (CDT)
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Superhero 101
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Suppose you are a long established, successful superhero.
For whatever reason, you're taking on an apprentice.
What skills and training do you start for your apprentice ?
What are the basic and less basic things that superheroes need
to know or be able to do ?
Curt
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Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 10:59:13 -0500
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
To: CHAMPS-L@sysabend.org, falkirk@airmail.net
Subject: Secret Identities
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Most superheroes have secret identities for one of a few reasons:
1) They allow the superhero to have some semblance of a "normal" life (ex., Superman, Peter Parker)
2) They give them resources that allow them to carry out their "true" work (ex., Batman)
3) The costumed persona IS the secret ID (they had a life before they had powers) (ex. Captain Marvel)
Has anybody come up with any different twists on the secret ID? For example, what if a good-guy superhero had a secret identity so that he could blow off steam? He might be a real jerk to be around in his "normal" identity.
Guy
Uncommon Solutions...when you need a better way!
http://www.uncommonsolutions.com
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Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 11:11:32 -0500
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net>
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Secret Identities
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Guy Hoyle wrote:
> Has anybody come up with any different twists on the secret ID? For
> example, what if a good-guy superhero had a secret identity so that he
> could blow off steam? He might be a real jerk to be around in his
> "normal" identity.
Well, I don't know if this qualifies, but I had one character who had a
secret ID because in his (original) civilian ID he was a fairly well
known criminal. (tough to be taken serious as a good guy when everyone
knows the things you've done in the past)
Todd
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Noisy
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 09:21:38 -0700
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From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
>
> On Mon, 8 Jun 1998 17:22:01 -0700, Woodie wrote:
>
> >Once upon a time, there was a Limitation, used in the original Fantasy
Hero, called,
> >"Noisy". Noisy worked by declaring a -1/2 Limitation on any magical
power that could be
> >easily detected by anyone with Magic Sense, even at considerable
distances.
>
> Not quite; AFAIR any spellcaster nearby *automatically* knew that a
> spell had gone off.
Well, yes, but I didn't think the method of being "easily detected" needed
that level of detail in referring to the historical Limitation, especially
as I most definitely did not want an "automatically" detected effect. The
problem I had with this was that it was all or nothing; spell casters
within the radius of effect automatically sensed the magic, those in the
next hex felt nothing, even if their Magic Sense was +8 greater than the
person within the effect's radius.
Filksinger
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From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: <champs-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Independant Limitation
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 02:26:09 +1000
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----------
> From: Guy Hoyle <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
> To: lizard@dnai.com; champs-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: Re: Independant Limitation
> Date: Tuesday, June 09, 1998 6:24 AM
>
> This is the answer I've heard over the years, but I've never been able to
track down a reference to it in the books. It seems like an awfully easy
way to destroy something somebody has sacrificed actual points for.
Note most things bought independant with no foci would have a very
high AP value. . .and very little way to be destroyed apart from
dispel. ..
>
> Uncommon Solutions...when you need a better way!
> http://www.uncommonsolutions.com
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 11:50:35 -0500 (CDT)
To: CHAMPS-L@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Secret Identities
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"Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net> wrote:
(and now I'm going to pick at his examples)
>
> Most superheroes have secret identities for one of a few reasons:
>
> 1) They allow the superhero to have some semblance of a "normal" life (ex., Superman, Peter Parker)
> 2) They give them resources that allow them to carry out their "true" work (ex., Batman)
> 3) The costumed persona IS the secret ID (they had a life before they had powers) (ex. Captain Marvel)
>
I think the number one reason to have a secret identity is so that people
don't come after you for what you do in your costumed identity. In most
instances, the secret identity is your 'true' or original identity and the
costumed ID is the 'disguise'. I would put Superman in the unusual
category (Guy's category 3) in that his 'civilian' ID is the disguise.
Note that Bruce Wayne existed before Batman, so although Wayne does have
resources that help Batman, the Wayne identity was not created for that
purpose. I think Moon Knight may be a better example, since he created a
cabby persona to help him gain info. on the street.
> Has anybody come up with any different twists on the secret ID? For example, what if a good-guy superhero had a secret identity so that he could blow off steam? He might be a real jerk to be around in his "normal" identity.
>
There's always the secret identity is a criminal thing.
Curt
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From: Lisa Hartjes <Hartjes@TCBS.net>
Reply-To: "Hartjes@TCBS.net" <Hartjes@TCBS.net>
To: "CHAMPS-L@sysabend.org" <CHAMPS-L@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Secret Identities
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 12:58:40 -0400
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<<Has anybody come up with any different twists on the secret ID? For
example, what if a good-guy superhero had a secret identity so that he
could blow off steam? He might be a real jerk to be around in his "normal"
identity.>>
How about secret ID to represent a character's true nature, such as someone
pretending to be of one race when he's really another. For example, in a
world where magic is king (and technology is BAD), the character uses
technology to cast his "spells".
This example is more like a "Dark Secret", where if it gets out, the person
is ruined.
Lisa Hartjes
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Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Superhero 101
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 03:04:36 +1000
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> Suppose you are a long established, successful superhero.
> For whatever reason, you're taking on an apprentice.
> What skills and training do you start for your apprentice ?
> What are the basic and less basic things that superheroes need
> to know or be able to do ?
>
> Curt
First thing often stated is to clear up the myths. This is a common
technique
in many genre's which seeks to make the setting seem more realistic.
As for training, most of my supers tend to treat their powers as an extra
on top
of detective skills and physical abilities. However some supers might want
their sidekicks to play a perticular role- like having a telepath as an
offsider but wanting to keep them out of the line of fire. Aslo a
run-through of the law, and advice on
pr- what you can and can't get from people by just standing there in
costume looking heroic.
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From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: <CHAMPS-L@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Secret Identities
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 03:17:44 +1000
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----------
> From: Guy Hoyle <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
> To: CHAMPS-L@sysabend.org; falkirk@airmail.net
> Subject: Secret Identities
> Date: Wednesday, June 10, 1998 1:59 AM
>
> Most superheroes have secret identities for one of a few reasons:
>
> 1) They allow the superhero to have some semblance of a "normal" life
(ex., Superman, Peter Parker)
> 2) They give them resources that allow them to carry out their "true"
work (ex., Batman)
> 3) The costumed persona IS the secret ID (they had a life before they had
powers) (ex. Captain Marvel)
>
> Has anybody come up with any different twists on the secret ID? For
example, what if a good-guy superhero had a secret identity so that he
could blow off steam? He might be a real jerk to be around in his "normal"
identity.
>
Well, the current spiderman comics (current over here)
has him in 4 sectre id's to avoid the repercussions of his usual one.
Also of note are-
*An actual psychological change, like when superman was gangbuster
before he took off into space and found warworld the first time
*A transformation which the person could not come to terms with
in the normal context of their life. this is simmilar to A above,
but the idea here isn't external factors, but how the hero thinks this news
would change the relationships he has, or maybe even how they see
themselves.
*A transformation dictated by some wierd condition- If the citizens of
planet blarg find out that the Defender is a native blargian, then chaos
would reighn becasue the chosen one is not meant to be from this world,
ect, ect.
> Guy
>
> Uncommon Solutions...when you need a better way!
> http://www.uncommonsolutions.com
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: "filkhero@usa.net" <filkhero@usa.net&> "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 98 18:10:40
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Noisy
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On Tue, 9 Jun 1998 09:21:38 -0700, Filksinger wrote:
>From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
>>
>> On Mon, 8 Jun 1998 17:22:01 -0700, Woodie wrote:
>>
>> >Once upon a time, there was a Limitation, used in the original Fantasy
>Hero, called,
>> >"Noisy". Noisy worked by declaring a -1/2 Limitation on any magical
>power that could be
>> >easily detected by anyone with Magic Sense, even at considerable
>distances.
>>
>> Not quite; AFAIR any spellcaster nearby *automatically* knew that a
>> spell had gone off.
>
>Well, yes, but I didn't think the method of being "easily detected" needed
>that level of detail in referring to the historical Limitation, especially
>as I most definitely did not want an "automatically" detected effect. The
>problem I had with this was that it was all or nothing; spell casters
>within the radius of effect automatically sensed the magic, those in the
>next hex felt nothing, even if their Magic Sense was +8 greater than the
>person within the effect's radius.
Fair enough, so just reduce the Limitation to -1/4 and say that
magicians get a PER (or whatever) roll.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 12:41:24 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Superhero 101
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 09:51 AM 6/9/1998 -0500, Curt Hicks wrote:
>
>
>Suppose you are a long established, successful superhero.
>For whatever reason, you're taking on an apprentice.
>What skills and training do you start for your apprentice ?
>What are the basic and less basic things that superheroes need
>to know or be able to do ?
I'd say that the list should probably be topped with Working With
Authorities.
By and large, a civilian superhero (one not officially sanctioned by the
government) is a lot like a Citizen's Patrol member who just happens to
have super-powers. He can make citizens' arrests, and can be considered an
"expert" in certain cases (such as knowing how to defuse a super-high-tech
bomb that is beyond the ken of the official Bomb Squad, or when said Bomb
Squad isn't available for any reason).
Superheroes should *not*, however, consider themselves to be on equal
legal footing with the official police, let alone (heaven forbid) actually
above their authority. It's up to the police (whether local, county,
state, or Federal) to gather evidence at the scene of the crime. It's up
to the police to obtain and serve search and arrest warrants. It's up to
the police to pursue and apprehend fleeing criminals. Civilians may give
assistance, especially if they have skills, training, and/or equipment that
make them at least as competent as the police themselves at the endeavor;
I've seen cases in the real world where each of these actually happened.
Whether this is done or not, though, is up to the decisions and whims of
the law enforcement agent in charge and the policies of his agency; status
can change on a moment's notice.
When arriving on the scene of any dangerous situation, the first
priority of any superhero should be saving lives. If given a choice
between people dying and a criminal escaping, let the criminal escape in
order to save lives. The second priority is preserving highly valuable
property (such as art treasures, artifacts, and other irreplaceable goods).
Massive property damage (such as an entire downtown city block, or more)
is a comparable concern. Only when both life and property are well in hand
(or not in danger in the first place), and when any police present are
overwhelmed, should a superhero step in to capture a criminal.
What I've given above isn't the whole scope of the concept; it's just
the opening paragraphs. Other issues that would need to be covered include
evidence handling, giving credit where credit is due, recognizing which law
enforcement agents would be amenable to accepting your help, etc.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: <CHAMPS-L@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Secret Identities
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 13:17:51 -0700
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From: Guy Hoyle <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
>
> Most superheroes have secret identities for one of a few reasons:
>
> 1) They allow the superhero to have some semblance of a "normal" life
(ex., Superman, Peter Parker)
> 2) They give them resources that allow them to carry out their "true"
work (ex., Batman)
> 3) The costumed persona IS the secret ID (they had a life before they had
powers) (ex. Captain Marvel)
4) To protect the ones they love.
5) To hide from ones enemies.
> Has anybody come up with any different twists on the secret ID? For
example, what if a good-guy superhero had a secret identity so that he
could blow off steam? He might be a real jerk to be around in his "normal"
identity.
A hero who cannot maintain his heroic identity and powers indefinitely.
Such a hero may need a secret id in order to "recharge" without villains
showing up while he is vulnerable.
A hero whose normal identity is so unpopular that he cannot operate as a
hero if it is known. A hero who was trying to make up for his former crimes
committed while in his "normal" identity might fit, for example. As a
twist, how about a hero who is living someone else's life, someone who was
really unpleasant? I had a hero once who was an alien who could not survive
on Earth whose ship carrying the imprisoned "Eater of Souls" crashed on
Earth. She took over the body of a now-mindless villain who found the
wreck, and now is forced to use an unpleasant identity as a
Viper-controlled villain while trying to understand Earth.
A hero whose costumed persona is intended to _avoid_ adulation and crowds,
such as a famous rock singer who is secretly a silent, seldom seen
vigilante.
That's a few. More will undoubtedly occur as soon as I send it.:)
Filksinger
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Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 16:38:43 -0400
From: david stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Generic RPG mailing list?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Does anybody know of a mailing list for generic RPG discussion? I've got
some questions about group structure, switching campaigns/systems, and
stuff like that which doesn't really belong on this list. I know there's a
Usenet newsgroup for generic talk, but I'd prefer a mailing list if one
exists. Thanks!
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Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 15:40:34 -0700
From: mcallahan <mcallahan@home.com>
Reply-To: mcallahan@home.com
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>Player: "I, SuperRange Man, have decided to attack Mr. Bad with my
>SuperRange Beam. I have
>the ability to hit any place on the planet, regardless of barriers in >my way, with NRP."
>
>GM: "You are kidding. You don't even know where he is. Only I know
>that." (Note: SRM is in
>Little America, Antarctica, and Mr. B is in Maui.)
>
>Player: "I attempt to find him by listening carefully. (Shakes dice)
>I get a 5 on my PER
>roll."
>
>GM: "Your PER roll fails."
>
>Player: "Cool. That gives me a 0 OCV with NRP. I'll keep shooting
>until I hit him, since I
>have 0 END."
>
>GM: "O.K. Mr. Badhas a DCV of 7. You hit him on a 4 or less."
Of course this should be considered to be suprised out of combat, so
Mr. Bad is at 1/2 dcv, and takes x2 stun when he gets hit (now a 7 or
less) :-)
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Affecting STR Min
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 18:16:22 -0500
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At 06:50 AM 6/8/1998 EDT, SteveL1979@aol.com wrote:
> To address Len's points (should 0 END increase the STR Min of a
weapon or
>not; how do you deal with -1 OCV on a weapon, and should that
decrease the STR
>Min?) without doing a lot of cutting and pasting, let me just say
that I think
>he touches on an important point, to wit:
>
> What Advantages, Limitations, and additions/deductions from a
weapon's cost
>should affect its STR Min?
I suppose it depends on what your goals are for the STR minimums. Are the
current ones high only to have a wider range of STRs, or are they high to
represent the higher END cost of the heavier weapons?
For example, my campaign might could tolerate the game effects of Michael's
more reasonable STR minimuns if the heavier weapons cost 1 or 2 END at the
end of the turn (much like heaver armor does). That way, the common rogue
could fight with a bastard sword or large axe for a short time, but he
would hardly choose one as his main weapon. (I'm just throwing this out
for example.)
I realized today that when I suggested that skill levels be used to lower
STR minimums (from the Hero Standard to Michael's standard), what I was
really trying to do was lower the END cost. (And before the purist go
nuts, there is precedence for skill levels lowering END cost--in Hero
System Almanac 1.)
I still think that you can have a guy with a 13 STR, good CON, REC, etc.,
who will wear himself out in a hurry if he tries to fight with an
unfamiliar weapon. And I don't think 1 CP in WF "Blades" is going to
conquer this for everything from the knife to the great sword. Heck, even
someone trained, who is rusty, will get very tired wielding a light weapon
properly--even if he is in great shape otherwise.
The above sounds about as confused as I am. Perhaps the problem is that
"STR min" should be defined as something more and/or less than just the STR
necessary to wield the weapons. Perhaps, it should even change so much as
to need a new name. This theoretical "Weapon Requirements" limitation
could include everything from (Michael's lower) STR min, to height
requirements, maybe extra END requirements, and who knows what else. I'm
sure you guys can think of more. One example (very possibly a bad one),
would be something that made swords have a lower STR min--because of the
tech level, but also quantified how they require more care. In other
words, I can use that 10 STR broadsword, but I better keep the edge sharp
if I want it's full damage class.
I think we have to answer those questions before we can make intelligent
decisions about the advantages.
Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 23:38:24 +0000
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Superhero 101
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> At 09:51 AM 6/9/1998 -0500, Curt Hicks wrote:
> >
> >Suppose you are a long established, successful superhero.
> >For whatever reason, you're taking on an apprentice.
> >What skills and training do you start for your apprentice ?
> >What are the basic and less basic things that superheroes need
> >to know or be able to do ?
>
> I'd say that the list should probably be topped with Working With
> Authorities.
<Bob's excellent ideas shamelessly snipped>
I'm not sure about the working with Authorities, but if you're going to train
a new
hero, you need to teach them proper fashion sense. When to wear a cape. What
type of mask works best for you. Are Swashbuckler boots in or out?
Get the proper publicity photos all done. If you do something and no photo is
taken; Would you rather have them use the photo you provided or the one from
the time Grond shoved your face through a bank vault?
More stuff:
Which resturaunts cater to Superheroes? How to get bloodstains out of your
costume. How to avoid face disfiguring injuries.
I think that's enough for now,
Mark Lemming
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Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 17:15:26 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 03:40 PM 6/9/1998 -0700, mcallahan wrote:
>>Player: "Cool. That gives me a 0 OCV with NRP. I'll keep shooting
>>until I hit him, since I
>>have 0 END."
>>
>>GM: "O.K. Mr. Badhas a DCV of 7. You hit him on a 4 or less."
>
>Of course this should be considered to be suprised out of combat, so
>Mr. Bad is at 1/2 dcv, and takes x2 stun when he gets hit (now a 7 or
>less) :-)
On the other hand, there are always those targets that the PC hit while
shooting blindly at Mr. Badhas. ("Excuse me, sir, we're with the Secret
Service....")
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 19:18:19 -0500
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Superhero 101
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 09:51 AM 6/9/98 -0500, Curt Hicks wrote:
>Suppose you are a long established, successful superhero.
>For whatever reason, you're taking on an apprentice.
>What skills and training do you start for your apprentice ?
>What are the basic and less basic things that superheroes need
>to know or be able to do ?
There are exceptions, of course, but usually the apprentice will be a
sidekick, rather than a mere student of, or even an immediate replacement
for, the established hero. And sidekicks are usually minors. With that in
mind:
Rule 1: We play by MY rules. What I say goes, period.
Rule 2: Be the best you can be. Then be better.
Rule 3: Taking on this job doesn't relieve you of other responsibilities
(school, family obligations, etc.)
Okay, ultra-controlling, never-satisfied Hero-Guy's ground rules
established, we can proceed to specifics...
First, book work. (Actually, this will often be done on, or at least with
the help of, a super crimefighting computer.) Specifics of the book work
will vary according to the skills of the hero; detective types will make
the sidekick learn things like forensics, but most heroes should have a
nodding acquaintance with basic police procedure, and at least enough of
the law to be able to tell the difference between a felony and a
misdemeanor, and know when a citizen's arrest can be made. You need to
know how to avoid screwing up an arrest, or otherwise making life hard on
the cops you are supposed to be helping.
Second, physical conditioning. Realistically, this should involve weeks or
months of various forms of exercise, gymnastics and weight training,
followed by more months of martial arts and/or weapons training and
practice. Comics usually compress this pretty drastically, so that all
this training is either squeezed into six panels, or assumed to be going on
in the background after the sidekick's debut. If the hero and sidekick
have mainly powers rather than skills (i.e., Flash & Kid Flash, Aquaman &
Aqualad) then this phase of training will focus on honing the various uses
of those powers.
Third, consequences. The sidekick will inevitably decide he's "ready"
before the hero does, and will go off on his own, or tag along against
orders, and pull some lame stunt that nearly (a) gets him killed, (b) gets
civilians killed, (c) lets the bad guy get away, or (d) blows the hero's
cover. At this point the apprentice learns what happens when you cross the
boss. The hero will drag out one or more of the following stock speeches:
This Isn't a Game, With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility, or You Let
Me Down -- How Can I Work With a Partner I Can't Trust? Some sidekicks
have to learn this more than once.
Note that the sidekick is not given access to any of the Cool Hero Toys
until after he's gone through Stage 3 and then proven himself again. He
may have given *himself* access to some of them at the beginning of this
stage, but they will be taken away; once he's proven himself again, he'll
be awarded his own set of toys. (No, you still can't drive the Heromobile,
but I'm giving you a customized SidekickCycle.)
Damon
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|****************** Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs *******************|
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Damon & Peni's homepages: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3401/ |
| Children's Books -- Dolls -- X-Files -- Pulp Magazines |
| Worthy Causes -- Computer -- Atlanta -- All Human Knowledge |
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
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Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 19:23:06 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
To: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Superhero 101
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Curt Hicks wrote:
> Suppose you are a long established, successful superhero.
> For whatever reason, you're taking on an apprentice.
> What skills and training do you start for your apprentice ?
> What are the basic and less basic things that superheroes need
> to know or be able to do ?
>
> Curt
First of read the Followers perq to find out the point level of your
apprentice. Next follow the steps you would take with any character you
wish to create, keepin in mind that the apprentices power base should
be reasonably close to that of the person they are learning from. Dick
Greyson was apprenticed to Bruce Wayne for quite a while before breaking
out on his own. From what I remember he seemed to have learned quite
well.
Of course if your looking to be a Mastermind with many followers keep
you browser pointed at Digital Heo to see how the Mastermind power is
finally explained (a shameless plug for some of my own work).
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Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 19:35:12 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
To: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Superhero 101
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Mark Lemming wrote:
> More stuff:
> Which resturaunts cater to Superheroes?
Avoid Ace's High, that place has really gone down the crapper :)
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Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 22:36:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: STR Min (was something else)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote:
> Now, I've been working on this for some time, and I'm fairly close in a lot
> of ways, but there is always a tension between the realism and the cinema
> in this setting. There has to be, because Realms characters take licks,
> and sometimes those licks take them down fast. But I don't really think I
> can exactly convey what I want. So instead, I'm trying to understand how
> your system works, so that I can adapt it to my campaign. I can't just
> take it whole cloth. I _need_ the full range of STR min to make a more
> vibrant distinction in characters. On the other hand, I'm not satisfied
> with the STR minimums in FH, so I'm trying to come up with an alternative.
> If you where going to adapt your system to play at the upper reaches of
> heroic realism, just creeping into the edge of cinema, how would you change
> it? Or is that a ludicrous question?
I would ignore STR Min. Either that or assign values that make sense
according to the weapon but not some hard and fast formula. Cinematic
fantasy does not have STR Min. People often use whatever they wnat
regarless of how strong they look to be.
> I never stated that anyone paid for weapons with points. It's very much a
> heroic level game in the full Hero tradition. What may have given you the
> idea, was that I said that the PCs sometimes find metals with "points" in
> them. Just think of it as a magic item that isn't yet made, but that the
> character found the points for. They have to forge the sword instead of
> just finding it in the lair.
I got the impression from a previous post that PCs paid for their
weapons.
> >You can't have everything. If you want cinematic game then don't worry
> >about STR Min, that's for more 'realistic' games, just like STR Min for
> >guns. Stee Long recommends ignoring the STR Min for 'wilder' Dark
> >Champions games (where everyone can fire an Uzi one handed and often fire
> >two at once), and it sounds like you should here.
>
> Too cinematic for me. That tension again. Realms dwarves do some fairly
> cinematic things with those axes, but they don't run around with a large
> axe in each hand.
I never said that. I'm failing to understand your 'cinematic' approach.
I've never read and AD&D novels and never intend to and I suspect I'd gag
at the way they depict certain things. The problem is that I just don't
undestand the rules of your game. I can you can be more specific than
maybe I'd understand what you are looking for.
> >> What specifically did you not like about it? You might could do what I
> >> did, only increase the cost every 3 points of STR, instead of 5. That
> >> would be fairly realistic. I don't see how anyone full grown male could
> >> avoid getting at least a 13 STR, with moderate exercise.
>
> >Becuase it basically represents the idea that the GM is forcingt the
> >players to fit into a specific character type. Take a look at your
> >method. Who's going to even try to have a stat near 20? A 20 STR would
> >cost 15 points, a 20 DEX would cost 45 points. If you are dealing with
> >100 point normals, no one is going to want to cough up that much for a
> >characteristic and everyone is going to end up with the same stats.
>
> I think I'm missing some reasoning on your part. I don't see how you can
> get to the above from what I said. Bottom line, we have PCs with stats all
> over the board, from 8 to 25, depending on the stat. My change was done,
> in part, to create _more_ variety, and it has. Of course, it also works
> because we are only charging 1 point for the first 5 CP of CON and EGO, and
> we broke DEX down into REF, DEX, and TECH (ala Fuzion) with the same cost
> structure. (When we converted the characters, everyone was within 5 points
> of the original total. So it balances out.) A 17 costs 9 CP, and a 18
> costs 11 CP. That's just 2 and 3 CP more, respectively. It also makes the
> "blended" character reasonable to play. So it increases the options.
None of this was in your previous post. You just described that you
double the cost of a stat every 5 points. IMO you're not playing HERO
anymore, you're playing a Fuzion variant. And I still don't like house
rules where the cost gets higher every few points or so. It's like the GM
is saying he dosn't trust the players to build within a certain conception
and expects everyone to get into an arms race of points. And, of course,
the PCS have only 'x' points, while the GM has all the points he wants,
so where is the limits on the GM?
> Think about it this way. Given a certain level of defenses, buying the
> first few STR is just reaching the level where you can "play". If the
> average is 6 DEF, then damage class 1-3 are practially equal. But damage
> class 4 is useful, 5 even more so, and so on until you reach the level
> where you can just squash your opponents. Likewise, if OCV and DCV are
> controlled, then going from a 5 to a 6 is _more_ valuable than from a 4 to
> a 5, even though DEX normally costs the same. Besides, I have yet to see a
> decent way to handle characteristic maximums with lots of different races
> (including the ways in AC), that didn't either penalize the non-human
> severely or grant them way too much for their points.
I prefer the one shown in an issue of AC where the CHA bonus translated to
a increase in the base stat. If a dwarf has a CHA Maxima of 23, he
started with a 13 STR. This was paid for with a 'dwarf racial package'
listed on the character sheet.
> >It short the GM is saying 'I don't trust you to role-play, so I'm going to
> >force you to build things like this."
>
> Where did that come from?
That was the opinion expressed when a method like this was introduced in a
local game.
> What I _explicitly_ said to the players was,
> "Now you don't have to keep asking my permission to buy up stats" (or
> skills or anything else on this escalating cost--we use the same principle
> all over). "Instead, you can buy anthing you want (within these very broad
> and well-defined limits), and it will fit in the campaign." And they have.
I see nothing wrong with people informing or asking the GM about where
they sepnd EPs. Lets one keep track of what the PCS are up to.
> Granted, my players probably don't fit the normal mold. They are uniformly
> great role-players, wonderful at puzzles, terrible at tactics (although
> they are learning--due to that incident with the water trolls :-), and not
> a power-gamer in the bunch. In fact, what's the opposite of a power-gamer?
> Someone who is so poor at understanding odds and the mechanics that they
> inadvertently build unbalancing characters and stomp on another player's
> turf? I just got tired of having to approve everything, because they
> couldn't understand why buying their STR up from 10 to 13 was going to
> cause everyone else to want to buy their STR up as well.
That last line makes me wonder. How is the fact that player X buys his
STR up to 13 going to force Y to do the same? Don't people try to stick
the the character conception? I mean, I've increased the STR of some of
my PCs over time, but not becuase the other people did. I increased STR
because I felt it made sense based on what the character was up to
(learning martial arts, having his powers increase with time, simply
working out).PCs should not try to play a game of 'one-up' with each
other, otherwise no one will be happy and no one will be able to have a
niche where they can 'shine'.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 22:43:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote:
> OTOH, weapon size and character size seems fairly realistic in the Realms
> (at least, they are trying to make it so). Right now, I'm just relying on
> GM fiat and common sense to decide what a character can wield. As you may
> have guessed by now--I hate GM fiat, particularly when I'm the GM. How can
> I make a good decision on a halfling, when I'm only guessing on a human?
> So when you say that the heroic weapons are broken, I want to understand
> why. Maybe I'll be better able to answer those questions.
Consider this:
The hand numbers (ie. 1, 2, 1 1/2) are for a human sized user. Anyone of
less than human size (ie. a dwarf) can't use most human 2-handed weapons
(exception - spears and the like) and has to use 1 1/2 handed weapons with
two hands. Anyone shorter than that (ie. a hafling) can't use *any*
two-handed weapons and *must* use all 1 1/2 handed weapons with two hands.
Certain 1 1/2 handed weapons are also unusable, the exception being (once
again) spears and the like. Some one-handed human weapons (such as axes)
become 1 1/2 handed weapons. Small human weapons (ie. short swords)
become M sized weapons. Going the otehr way, I'd guess that 2 levels of
growth will turn *any* 1 1/2 half handed weapon into a 1 handed weapon and
many 2 handed weapons will become 1 1/2 handed weapons. Get and bigger
and fwe human scale weapons will really be suted for use by the character.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 22:45:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote:
> Michael Surbrook writes:
> >One does not slash with a bastard or great sword, one cleaves. Yes you
> >might use the upper third of the blade, but not as if it was a fencing
> >rapier. You actually want to hit a bit down the blade to transfer maximum
> >energy, must like a baseball player whatns to hit with the 'sweet spot' of
> >the bat, which is *not* the tip.
>
> But the point (parden the pun) is that the part you hit with is somewhere
> out near the end of the blade. It's further out on a great sword than a
> bastard sword. It doesn't matter whether it is the tip or not. My point
> was that the size of the arc described by the "sweet spot" matters.
Nope. It's not so much the arc of the blade as the movement of the hips.
Proper use of the hips will do wonders for the force of your blow,
regardless of how far the blade goes. One handed use will give some
power, but two handed use will give power, direction and control.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
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Reply-To: <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 19:48:44 -0700
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
From: mcallahan <mcallahan@home.com>
>
> >Player: "I, SuperRange Man, have decided to attack Mr. Bad with my
> >SuperRange Beam. I have
> >the ability to hit any place on the planet, regardless of barriers in
>my way, with NRP."
<snip>
> >GM: "O.K. Mr. Bad has a DCV of 7. You hit him on a 4 or less."
>
> Of course this should be considered to be suprised out of combat, so
> Mr. Bad is at 1/2 dcv, and takes x2 stun when he gets hit (now a 7 or
> less) :-)
Well, for the first shot. After that, he'd get his full DCV and take only
normal damage.
Unless it was done randomly, once or twice a day. Even if you never hit
him, imagine Mr. Bad with a severe nervous tick.:)
Filksinger
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Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 19:57:10 -0700
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com>
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com
Organization: None
To: Guy Hoyle <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
CC: CHAMPS-L@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Secret Identities
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Guy Hoyle wrote:
> Most superheroes have secret identities for one of a few reasons:
>
> 1) They allow the superhero to have some semblance of a "normal" life (ex., Superman, Peter Parker)
> 2) They give them resources that allow them to carry out their "true" work (ex., Batman)
> 3) The costumed persona IS the secret ID (they had a life before they had powers) (ex. Captain Marvel)
>
> Has anybody come up with any different twists on the secret ID? For example, what if a good-guy superhero had a secret identity so that he could blow off steam? He might be a real jerk to be around in his "normal" identity.
>
> Guy
>
> Uncommon Solutions...when you need a better way!
> http://www.uncommonsolutions.com
How about the female super vigilante who is in reality male? Saw it in Villains Unlimited.
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Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 22:58:26 -0400
To: <filkhero@usa.net&> <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: RE: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 03:42 PM 6/8/98 -0700, Filksinger wrote:
>From: Joe Mucchiello
>> At 12:42 AM 6/4/98 -0700, Filksinger wrote:
>> >> The
>> >> *POWER* has No Range Modifier, not the person using it.
>>
>> Although I'm very bored by this discussion, please call it No Range
>> Penalty. That is what you are discussing, right? Every time I see NRM I
>> have to remember what you all are talking about.
>
>Very well. NRP, if I remember.
Thank you. :-)
>> Second, I have to disagree with Filksinger (and most others). You are 0
>> OCV against a target at range if you cannot make a targeted PER roll
>> against the target. If the special effect was sufficient to allow the NRP
>> advantage on the power then the power will hit if the attacker makes a 0
>> OCV attack against the target. That is how the game mechanic works. You
>> are arguing against the game mechanic. If you don't like it, don't allow
>> NRP on the power in question.
>
>Player: "I, SuperRange Man, have decided to attack Mr. Bad with my
SuperRange Beam. I have
>the ability to hit any place on the planet, regardless of barriers in my
way, with NRP."
>
>GM: "You are kidding. You don't even know where he is. Only I know that."
(Note: SRM is in
>Little America, Antarctica, and Mr. B is in Maui.)
>
>Player: "I attempt to find him by listening carefully. (Shakes dice) I get
a 5 on my PER
>roll."
>
>GM: "Your PER roll fails."
>
>Player: "Cool. That gives me a 0 OCV with NRP. I'll keep shooting until I
hit him, since I
>have 0 END."
>
>GM: "O.K. Mr. Badhas a DCV of 7. You hit him on a 4 or less."
Player: "Okay, I can make 10 attacks before I run out of END so I'll just
roll the dice 10 times." rolls "Hey, I hit once."
GM: "Okay. Each of the missiles flies off in different directions. You
don't know if you hit him. Now what do you do?" Notes damage on target.
Decides Bad knows who did it and will send someone after him.
Player: "Um."
>If a failed PER roll allows an attack at 0 OCV against any target in
range, and the range
>is planetary, then I could declare that I was attacking a man anywhere on
the planet,
>without even knowing where he was, at 0 OCV. After all, I can _always_
fail a PER roll.
>
>If you rule that I have to know where he is, then I agree. That is, in
fact, the whole
>point of my question. How well do you have to know where he is, and what
are the modifiers
>for determining where he is at range when you have no sense that can
detect him.
Okay, forget about NRP. Ten people are in a pitch black warehouse with
guns. One of them just starts shooting a random. He is 0 OCV against
everyone else. He has a small chance to hit them. If they are normals
then he is 8- to hit someone within 4", 6- within 8", 4- within 16", etc,
not counting cover (crates and whatnot). No matter what he rolls, if
something is between him and the target he will miss (SFX). But if the
dice indicate a hit, he hits. Do you disagree with this?
If so, why?
If not, then NRP works exactly the same way just over a larger range of
possible hits. He's 8- against a 3 DCV target within range of his power.
I think your problem with this is NRP. NRP makes no sense. "The farther
away something is the more likely you are to hit" is just common sense.
But, if you find a special effect where NRP makes sense, this is how it
should work.
Joe
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Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 23:01:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: CHAR: Mothman
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
MOTHMAN
(Byron Lewis)
Val CHA Cost Roll Notes
13 STR 3 12- 150kg; 2 1/2d6
15 DEX 15 12- OCV: 5 / DCV: 5
13 CON 6 12-
10 BODY 0 11-
18 INT 8 13- PER Roll 13-
10 EGO 0 11- ECV: 3
13 PRE 3 12- PRE Attack: 2 1/2d6
10 COM 0 11-
6 PD 3 Total: 6 PD
5 ED 2 Total: 5 ED
3 SPD 5 Phases: 4, 8, 12
6 REC 0
30 END 0
24 STUN 0
Total Characteristics Cost: 47
Movement: Running: 6" / 12"
Swimming: 2" / 4"
Cost Powers & Skills
Combat Training:
5 HTH Training: +1 with HTH
Background Skills:
10 Money: Wealthy
3 Acrobatics 12-
3 Climbing 12-
3 High Society 12-
3 KS: Philosophy 13-
1 TF: Car
28 Total Powers & Skills Cost
75 Total Character Cost
25+ Disadvantages
Psychological Limitation:
5 (15) Alcoholic
20 Code vs Killing
15 Secret ID: Byron Lewis
10 Experience
75 Total Disadvantage Points
Description:
Mothman was a bored Connecticut playboy who decided to fight crime in
order to bring meaning to his life. He was with the Minutemen for the
duration, from 1940 to 1949. A conscientious objector, he worked as a
medical aide during World War II. Mothman suffered from a drinking
problem from early on, and after being dragged before HUAC in the mid-50's
(and being labeled a Communist for his more liberal views), his alcoholism
reached dangerous proportions. Mothman was committed to a rehabilitation
center in 1962.
Note: In "Under the Hood", Hollis Mason makes mention of the fact that
Mothman could glide for short distances with his costume. No mention is
made anywhere else about him having that ability, and no sort of gliding
power is listed on his character sheet.
(Mothman created by Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons, character sheet created
by Michael Surbrook)
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
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Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 23:06:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: CHAR: Nite Owl I
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
NITE OWL I
(Hollis Mason)
Val CHA Cost Roll Notes
20 STR 10 13- 400kg; 4d6
18 DEX 24 13- OCV: 6 / DCV: 6
15 CON 10 12-
12 BODY 4 11-
14 INT 4 12- PER Roll 12-
13 EGO 6 12- ECV: 4
18 PRE 8 13- PRE Attack: 3 1/2d6
14 COM 2 12-
8 PD 4 Total: 11 PD / 3 PDr
8 ED 5 Total: 11 ED / 3 EDr
4 SPD 12 Phases: 3, 6, 9, 12
7 REC 0
30 END 0
30 STUN 0
Total Characteristics Cost: 87
Movement: Running: 7" / 14"
Swimming: 2" / 4"
Cost Powers & Skills
Combat Training:
3 Pistol Training: +1 with Service Pistol
6 HTH Training: +2 with Boxing
Martial Art: Boxing
Maneuver OCV DCV Damage
4 Block +2 +2 Block, Abort
4 Cross +0 +2 6d6 Strike
5 Hook -2 +1 8d6 Strike
3 Jab +2 +1 4d6 Strike
Equipment: OIF (-1/2)
4 Leather Body Armor: Armor: 3 DEF, Locations 4, 5 9-13
or Act 11- (-1)
3 Chainmail Inserts: Armor: +3 DEF, Locations 4, 5, 13
or Act 9- (-1 1/2)
Police and Background Skills:
2 Running: +1" (7"/14")
2 Perk: Local Police Powers
3 Acrobatics 13-
2 AK: New York 11-
3 Breakfall 13-
3 Climbing 13-
3 Deduction 12-
3 Inventing 12-
2 KS: Criminal Law 11-
2 KS: New York Underworld 11-
1 Mechanics 8-
3 PS: Police Officer 12-
3 Stealth 13-
3 Streetwise 13-
1 TF: Car
3 WF: Nightstick, Small Arms
71 Total Powers & Skills Cost
158 Total Character Cost
75+ Disadvantages
5 Distinctive Features: Police Officer
3 Package Bonus: (Police)
Psychological Limitation:
10 Craves Adventure/Excietment
15 Upholds the good
5 Reputation: Good Cop 8-
15 Secret ID: Hollis Mason
10 Watched: New York Police Department (Mopow, NCI, Lim Geo) 11-
20 Experience
158 Total Disadvantage Points
Description:
Hollis started his life helping his father at a local auto repair shop.
Desiring to do something with his life, he became a police officer in
1938. After reading of the exploits of Hooded Justice (and influenced a
bit by such comics as "Superman") Hollis became Nite Owl in 1939. He
joined the Minutemen soon after and remained with them until they
disbanded in 1949. HUAC quickly cleared him of any wrong doing (due to
his police background) in the 50's, and Nite Owl remained active until
1962, when he retired.
Upon retirement, Nite Owl opened his own auto shop, wrote (and published
"Under the Hood") and allowed Dan Dreiberg to carry own with the name of
Nite Owl. He was murdered in October of 1985 by a streetgang.
Nite Owl is probably the most stable of the original Minutemen (or all the
characters for that matter). He genuinely wanted to help people, which is
why he became a police officer and a superhero. He also craved adventure,
why else did he put on a mask?
(Nite Owl I created by Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons, character sheet
created by Michael Surbrook)
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 23:09:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: CHAR: Silhouette
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
SILHOUETTE
(Ursla Zandt)
Val CHA Cost Roll Notes
13 STR 3 12- 150kg; 2 1/2d6
13 DEX 9 12- OCV: 4 / DCV: 4
10 CON 0 11-
8 BODY -4 11-
13 INT 3 12- PER Roll 12-
10 EGO 0 11- ECV: 3
15 PRE 5 12- PRE Attack: 3d6
14 COM 2 12-
5 PD 2 Total: 5 PD
4 ED 1 Total: 4 ED
3 SPD 7 Phases: 4, 8, 12
5 REC 0
20 END 0
20 STUN 0
Total Characteristics Cost: 29
Movement: Running: 6" / 12"
Swimming: 2" / 4"
Cost Powers & Skills
Combat Training:
10 HTH Training: +2 with HTH
Background Skills:
10 Money: Wealthy
2 AK: Austria 11-
2 AK: New York 11-
3 Acrobatics 12-
3 Climbing 12-
4 English
0 German (native)
3 High Society 12-
37 Total Powers & Skills Cost
66 Total Character Cost
25+ Disadvantages
Psychological Limitation:
15 Adventrous, has a 'wild streak'
10 Arrogant attitude
15 Secret ID: Ursla Zandt; Lesbian
1 Experience
66 Total Disadvantage Points
Description:
Silhouette fled Austria with her family to escape Hitler's and the Nazi's.
After her parents died (leaving her a considerable fortune) she developed
a 'wild streak' and took up crime-fighting. As a Jew, she was disturbed
by Hooded Justice's pro-Hitler stance. Silhouette has only one line in
the entire book, a comment about the Polish people. This comment helps to
illustrate Silk Spectre's statement that Silhouette was hard to get along
with, it would seem that Silhouette acted a bit arrogant and displayed an
air of superiority around others (probably as a result of her aristocratic
upbringing).
A lesbian, Silhouette was expelled by the Minutemen in 1946. She and her
lover were killed shortly thereafter, by a villian named Liquidator.
(Silhouette created by Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons, character sheet
created by Michael Surbrook)
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 23:11:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: CHAR: Silk Spectre I
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
SILK SPECTRE I
(Sally Jupiter aka Sally Juspeczyk)
Val CHA Cost Roll Notes
8 STR -2 11- 75kg; 1 1/2d6
18 DEX 24 13- OCV: 6 / DCV: 6
13 CON 6 12-
10 BODY 0 11-
13 INT 3 12- PER Roll 12-
11 EGO 2 11- ECV: 4
13 PRE 3 12- PRE Attack: 2 1/2d6
16 COM 3 12-
4 PD 2 Total: 4 PD
4 ED 1 Total: 4 ED
3 SPD 2 Phases: 4, 8, 12
5 REC 0
26 END 0
21 STUN 0
Total Characteristics Cost: 44
Movement: Running: 6" / 12"
Swimming: 2" / 4"
Cost Powers & Skills
Combat Training:
10 HTH Training: +2 with HTH
Background Skills:
5 Money: Well Off
3 Acrobatics 13-
2 AK: New York 11-
3 Climbing 13-
3 High Society 12-
7 Persuasion 14-
1 Streetwise 8-
1 TF: Car
36 Total Powers & Skills Cost
80 Total Character Cost
50+ Disadvantages
Psychological Limitation:
15 Craves Excitement
10 Greedy (superhero for the money)
5 Experience
80 Total Disadvantage Points
Description:
Sally was a runaway who came to New York to find excitement. She worked a
number of odd jobs before Laurence Shexnayder decided to cash in on the
costumed crimefighter craze in early 1939 by creating the 'Silk Spectre'.
Hiring wrestlers and strongmen to pose as criminals, the Silk Spectre
garnered a large amount of publicity (and money). Sally joined the
Minutemen and was almost raped by the Comedian in late 1940. She retired
in 1947 and married Shexnayder, who was her agent.
In 1948 (or 1949), she slept with the Comedian, and gave birth to a
daughter, Laurie, in 1949. Laurie was brought up to be a crimefighter
(just like her mom) and ended up becoming the second Silk Spectre. Note:
Sally Jupiter's real last name is Juspeczyk, which was changed to hide her
Polish heritage. Laurie changed her name back.
(Silk Spectre I created by Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons, character sheet
created by Michael Surbrook)
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 23:14:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Watchmen
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Well, that was the Minutemen. No one commented, but then, these
weren't the man guys. Starting tomorrow, I hope to start posting the
major characters. Comedian, Dr. Manhattan etc. As I said before Nite Owl
will be missing his Owlship since I still haven't puzzled all of that out
yet. OTOH, I'll be psoting design questions about it real soon.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 23:35:01 -0400
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: RE: STR Min (was something else)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 10:36 PM 6/9/98 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>I prefer the one shown in an issue of AC where the CHA bonus translated to
>a increase in the base stat. If a dwarf has a CHA Maxima of 23, he
>started with a 13 STR. This was paid for with a 'dwarf racial package'
>listed on the character sheet.
Oo, oo. Hey, Steve Long, can this be made official? I forgot about this
when I made my 5th ed. survey many months back. It makes so much more
sense than the current method.
Joe
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Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 23:37:31 -0400
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 10:43 PM 6/9/98 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>The hand numbers (ie. 1, 2, 1 1/2) are for a human sized user. Anyone of
>less than human size (ie. a dwarf) can't use most human 2-handed weapons
>(exception - spears and the like) and has to use 1 1/2 handed weapons with
>two hands. Anyone shorter than that (ie. a hafling) can't use *any*
>two-handed weapons and *must* use all 1 1/2 handed weapons with two hands.
>Certain 1 1/2 handed weapons are also unusable, the exception being (once
>again) spears and the like.
How about halfling-sized aliens with three or more arms? :-)
Joe
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From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Generic RPG mailing list?
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:51:58 +1000
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> Does anybody know of a mailing list for generic RPG discussion? I've got
> some questions about group structure, switching campaigns/systems, and
> stuff like that which doesn't really belong on this list. I know there's
a
> Usenet newsgroup for generic talk, but I'd prefer a mailing list if one
> exists. Thanks!
Considering the volume of this list and the nature of the game in question,
i think some general-intrest questions are fine. Frankly i'd rather it to
another
endless argument about niggling mechanics concepts.
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From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Generic RPG mailing list?
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:51:58 +1000
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> Does anybody know of a mailing list for generic RPG discussion? I've got
> some questions about group structure, switching campaigns/systems, and
> stuff like that which doesn't really belong on this list. I know there's
a
> Usenet newsgroup for generic talk, but I'd prefer a mailing list if one
> exists. Thanks!
Considering the volume of this list and the nature of the game in question,
i think some general-intrest questions are fine. Frankly i'd rather it to
another
endless argument about niggling mechanics concepts.
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From: "Ron Abitz" <ronald@centraltx.net>
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 23:11:43 -0500
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----------
> From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
> To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
> Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
> Date: Tuesday, June 09, 1998 10:37 PM
>
> At 10:43 PM 6/9/98 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> >The hand numbers (ie. 1, 2, 1 1/2) are for a human sized user. Anyone
of
> >less than human size (ie. a dwarf) can't use most human 2-handed weapons
> >(exception - spears and the like) and has to use 1 1/2 handed weapons
with
> >two hands. Anyone shorter than that (ie. a hafling) can't use *any*
> >two-handed weapons and *must* use all 1 1/2 handed weapons with two
hands.
> >Certain 1 1/2 handed weapons are also unusable, the exception being
(once
> >again) spears and the like.
>
> How about halfling-sized aliens with three or more arms? :-)
>
> Joe
>
So how much is the disadvantage 3 handed weapon worth? What about 4? :-)
Ron Abitz
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Heroic/Cinematic mix
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 23:13:07 -0500
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(in another thread) Michael Surbrook writes:
>I'm failing to understand your 'cinematic' approach.
>I've never read and AD&D novels and never intend to and I suspect I'd gag
>at the way they depict certain things. The problem is that I just don't
>undestand the rules of your game. I can you can be more specific than
>maybe I'd understand what you are looking for.
Well, if the AD&D novels would make you gag (at least the ones I like), I
doubt we have enough common ground for you to help me much :-) But why let
that stop me? It's further complicated by the fact that the heroes of
those novels are a little more cinematic than I care for in an RPGs--in the
novel it's just good fun, sort of a light read, but in a game it would
quickly become Monty Haul. But the better Forgotten Realms authors (and
the world's creater, Ed Greenwood) have done a good job of showing how
having powers that would make a super hero blush do not lead to world
shattering domination.
How to explain this? It's sort of a James Madison "multiple factions"
thing. There are so many powerful beings in the Realms, with so many deep
agendas, that the more powerful you get, the more constrained you are. In
some ways, the gods are practically paralyzed. It's cinematic in that all
these being have all those powers, but realistic in that it protrays a
consistent, logical result of so much power. Does that make sense?
Enter the heroes. They live on the more realistic level. If they get
caught in the middle of a greater power fracas, their survival chances are
low. (Think Poland at the start of WWII. Calvary charges against Russions
and German tanks.) On the other hand, if they can remain relatively quiet,
they have a lot of freedom of action. But of course they don't remain
quiet. (Just this last session, they managed to pilfer a mage's training
ground, gain two powerful rings--and tick off an archmage who happens to be
the 3rd ranking member of an extremely organized and evil organization.)
So the challenge is the race: Gain power as fast as notice.
Let me try this way. In the real world, I pick up a sword for the first
time, run up against a guy who knows his busines, and I'm toast. In the
Realms, maybe I'm blessed by a god, have some innate ability, or just plain
lucky. But let the god turn away, the innate ability fizzle, or my luck
run out and, guess what? I'm toast--just like real life.
Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 21:36:20 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
To: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Affecting STR Min
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> At 06:50 AM 6/8/1998 EDT, SteveL1979@aol.com wrote:
> > To address Len's points (should 0 END increase the STR Min of a
> weapon or
> >not; how do you deal with -1 OCV on a weapon, and should that
> decrease the STR
> >Min?) without doing a lot of cutting and pasting, let me just say
> that I think
> >he touches on an important point, to wit:
> >
> > What Advantages, Limitations, and additions/deductions from a
> weapon's cost
> >should affect its STR Min?
>
> I don't happen to have an opinion very stronly in any direction on
> this, except that any principle that affects swords should also affect
> clubs, bows, firearms, and energy weapons, unless there's some
> specific reason (other than just "special effects") that it should be
> different. If Armor Piercing doesn't affect the STR Min of a sword,
> then it shouldn't affect the STR Min of an Uzi, and vice versa.
While I dont have a book with me and therefore must rely upon memory
(which normally doesn't stuff me around too bad), str mins include such things
as AP and modifiers to OCV, at least it does for melee weapons. The same
things could be applied to ranged weapons.
I think a good rule of thumb would be, if it has a direct effect upon
combat, count it in for the calculations of str mins. So if it has a -2 OCV,
the str min would go down. AP, penetrating, +1 stun, etc, would all increase
the str min. Area effect and explosion would require a case by case ruling,
however. (A grenade doesn't inherently require more strength to throw than a
rock, for instance. The bottle of fire water would, on the other hand)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time between play
-----------------------------------------------------------
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: STR Min (was something else)
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 23:45:20 -0500
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Michael Surbrook writes:
>> I think I'm missing some reasoning on your part. I don't see how you
can
>> get to the above from what I said. Bottom line, we have PCs with stats
all
>> over the board, from 8 to 25, depending on the stat. My change was
done,
>> in part, to create _more_ variety, and it has. Of course, it also works
>> because we are only charging 1 point for the first 5 CP of CON and EGO,
and
>> we broke DEX down into REF, DEX, and TECH (ala Fuzion) with the same
cost
>> structure. (When we converted the characters, everyone was within 5
points
>> of the original total. So it balances out.) A 17 costs 9 CP, and a 18
>> costs 11 CP. That's just 2 and 3 CP more, respectively. It also makes
the
>> "blended" character reasonable to play. So it increases the options.
>None of this was in your previous post. You just described that you
>double the cost of a stat every 5 points.
I was trying to keep it short, and just threw it out for consideration. I
don't double the cost every 5 points, I increase the cost by 1 every 5
points. (Yes, a minor point, since few buy beyond the first 10 anyway.)
>IMO you're not playing HERO anymore, you're playing a Fuzion variant.
I suppose you could say that. You could also say I'm playing a GURPs
variant because of the skills system (not explained here), but my personal
opinion is that it is a Hero variant. We still use all the powers,
advantages, etc. Still buy them much the same way. Still use all kinds of
rules from Hero. I'm just not shy about adapting.
Now, I don't care much for Fuzion, but IMO, breaking DEX into REF, DEX, and
TECH has got to be Fuzion's greatest contribution to Fantasy games. How
else can you correctly portray the differences between the races? Dwarves
are supposed to be accurate combatants (REF), who don't _like_ to get out
of the way (DEX), with amazing ability with their hands (TECH). And saying
that you could just buy a bunch of professional skills for dwarves is a cop
out. They are supposed to be inherently good crafters. (Besides, I
dislike professional skills--which is a whole 'nother issue.)
>And I still don't like house
>rules where the cost gets higher every few points or so. It's like the GM
>is saying he dosn't trust the players to build within a certain conception
>and expects everyone to get into an arms race of points. And, of course,
>the PCS have only 'x' points, while the GM has all the points he wants,
>so where is the limits on the GM?
Easy one first: The GM has unlimited "points" no matter which game you
play--even those without points. But since the GM is really a "referee" (a
term I've always preferred to the pretentious "game master"), not an
antagonist, it really shouldn't matter. If you've got to limit the GM
points, then something deeper is wrong.
Hard one: If you don't like, you don't like. Your game, your decision.
No reason why we both can't do it our own ways. <start semi-related rant>
Although I do have a problem with what I perceive as the attitude from some
that Hero ought to come up with the "correct" way to do things, publish
that, and no other. There are sometimes best ways for doing things and
certainly pitfalls in using other ways, but I'm all for presenting what
Hero thinks is best, the reason why, _and_ a few options if the reader
doesn't agree. <end rant>
I've always had to contend with a bit of an "arms race." If you don't,
then variable cost is just a nuisance for you. The other issue is that the
mechanics encourage arms races. Take the "normal mage" syndrome. He isn't
a doddering old guy with a 7 STR, but he wasn't planning on buying it up
any, either. OTOH, he does conceive of himself as having a fair amount of
toughness and conditioning. Finally, he needs the REC because that pesky
GM enforces the END rules. In standard Hero, spending 3 points on STR is
going to get him +1 PD, +2 STUN, and +1 REC--a 5 point value. It isn't
power gaming to not want to be _penalized_ for sticking with conception.
So I took steps to remove those type of situations. Now, if he wants to be
stong, he buys STR--and that's the only reason he has for buying it.
You don't have to agree with my methods, but your conclusion that I don't
trust my players is an unwarrented leap. It's not a case of trust, rather
it is a case of knowing their strengths and weaknesses as players and
compensating for them.
Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 21:49:18 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
To: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Gadget Belts ... ? about MP
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Dennis C Hwang wrote:
>
> On Mon, 8 Jun 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> > At 02:40 PM 6/8/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> > >Bob Greenwade writes:
>
> <snip discussion on multiple OAFs>
>
> > But what if all three OAFs are medallions? Just rambling more or less
> > of the top of my head here, I think it wouldn't be unreasonable to declare
> > that trying to grab "one of his medallions -- it doesn't matter which one"
> > should have some sort of OCV bonus. A +2 to OCV for every 2x acceptable
> > objects in one place seems appropriate (basing that on modifiers for Size).
> > So a character trying to grab any one of three OAF medallions would get a
> > +3 OCV to Grab.
> > Yes, this modifier would mean that it becomes easier to Grab a random
> > object from a set than it is to hit the person carrying them. The merits
> > of this are admittedly debatable. One the one hand, this is arguably
> > unrealistic; is it really harder to punch Mr T than it is to grab one of
> > his four medallions at random? (Not that one can't come up with plenty of
> > good reasons to not try either one to begin with!) On the other hand, the
> > character's getting a cost break on the points and should have to pay for
> > it with increased difficulty in some form. So I'm up in the air on whether
> > this should be a rule or not.
>
> Well, once you factor in OCV penalties for Called Shots and Grabs/Disarms,
> maybe it would balance out (I don't have the rulebooks with me, so I don't
> know how the totals would end up).
About the only modifier that would apply is the -2 OCV for targeting foci.
This is the equipment version of a called shot. So using the above numbers, -2
for targeting a focus, -1 (-2? I cant remember which) for a grab, and Bobs
modifier of +3 for the 3 foci and it balances to normal OCV. I personally would
only give a +1 bonus for each x2 foci in the target region, but hey, whatever.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time between play
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 23:58:02 -0500
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>> How about halfling-sized aliens with three or more arms? :-)
>>
>> Joe
>>
>So how much is the disadvantage 3 handed weapon worth? What about 4? :-)
> Ron Abitz
Awk! Don't start. I think I'll adapt the supposed requirement from Gene
Roddenberry and make all weapon bearing critters have 2 eyes and a general
humanoid appearance. "I'm sorry, Miss Demon, we know we have unlimited GM
points, but we are all out of extra limbs today."
Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:04:18 +0100
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Gadget Belts
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My (fairly) comprehensive writeup of Batman's utility belt can be seen
on my website if you follow the champions, then resources links to my
"Ultimate Utility Belt" site.
--
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|XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|
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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 07:58:36 -0500
To: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: Superhero fiction?
Cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 04:25 PM 6/10/98 -0400, David Stallard wrote:
>It seems to me that there isn't much superhero fiction (novels, short
>stories) available. I wonder if this is because comic books already fill
>that niche, or if there just isn't that much interest outside of the comic
>book/RPG crowd? Or maybe you need the comic art to do justice to the
>genre? Do you know of any great superhero fiction (comic-based, RPG-based,
>or otherwise) out there? Here's what I'm familiar with:
>
>* The Wild Cards series
>* I have a book which is a collection of short stories...it's titled
>"Superheroes" with maybe a sub-title...green and black cover....
>* I've seen (but not read) novels about various Marvel heroes...Spider-Man
>and Iron Man are all that come to mind, but there are probably others. I
>don't know if there are novels based on DC heroes or not....
Just my theory, but ... I think it basically comes down to, nobody in
publishing has any faith in the superheroic genre itself. Wild Cards got
sold on the basis of being a bunch of experienced SF authors, and has the
'bonus' of *not* actually being a superheroic genre storyline (it's one of
many projects which present superheroic characters bereft of superheroic
genre conventions). The _Superheroes_ anthology, similarly, consisted mostly
of various authors poking fun at said genre conventions (though I still
recommend the book just for Mike Stackpole's contribution). And the various
Marvel and DC novels get published on the strength of the existing licenses.
IMO, it seems that about the only way to get a superhero book published is
to (a) get an established hero's license or (b) disguise your book so the
editor doesn't know it's a superhero novel. :/
--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:27:45 -0500
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net
Organization: GM's R US
To: "Don S." <dschniepp@ldd.net&> "Don@hotmail" <dschniepp@hotmail.com&>
Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org&> "Tarth@hotmail" <Tarth@hotmail.com>
Subject: Top Ten
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The Top 10 reasons NOT to use the Hero System.
10. Because I like to say, "Ooooh, look at all the different pretty
dice."
9. "Because if I can't play the game tanked out on beer it's not a
good system."
8. "I'm not creative enough to make up an original character, just
give me one from the book."
7. "Spend points, no way. I want my character to be made by the random
winds of fate."
6. "But I like systems that are constraining and don't allow me any
leeway to do what I want."
5. Because George Lucas hasn't given his official stamp for Star Wars
Hero.
4."Without levels how can I tell when to beat up on my fellow
players?"
3. Because I like to struggle and fight with a system when one of my
players
comes up with something new and creative.
2. "Math? What's math? I ain't doin' no addin'."
1. I'm just to damn lazy to do it.
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From: Lisa Hartjes <Hartjes@TCBS.net>
Reply-To: "Hartjes@TCBS.net" <Hartjes@TCBS.net>
To: "Hero System Listserv (E-mail)" <hero-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Power Question
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:36:00 -0400
Organization: Tri-City Business Services
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I'm thinking about making a character who becomes more effective in social
situations (i.e.. Conversation, Persuasion, Oratory) the more people there
are around him. So, he's far more effective when dealing with 100 people
than he is with 1 person.
Can I get some suggestions on how to do this?
Lisa Hartjes
Bookkeeping Specialist
hartjes@tcbs.net
http://www.tcbs.net
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
To: "Hero System Listserv (E-mail)" <hero-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Power Question
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 06:51:11 -0700
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> Lisa Hartjes [Hartjes@TCBS.net] asks:
>
>A character who becomes more effective in social situations
>the more people there are around him.
How about 6 or so 5-point levels in all PRE skills with a -1 lim of "+1
per x2 people"?
So the bonus looks like this:
1 +0
2-3 +1
4-7 +2
8-15 +3
16-31 +4
32-63 +5
64+ +6
You can season the limitation value to taste. I picked a -1 for several
reasons: since for the same cost, 3 skill levels could be bought that
could be used all the time -- assuming 8-15 is an "average" sized group,
it balances out; it's the same cost as Ablative and Full Side Effect,
which are the closest existing limitations I could think of.
Dave Mattingly
http://www.haymaker.org
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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:58:25 -0500
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net>
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
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Filksinger wrote:
> Once upon a time, there was a rule that, in order to hit a target you
> couldn't see, you
> not only needed to hit with a 0 OCV, but you had to declare the
> correct hex to shoot. If
> the target wasn't there, you missed, period. This is more like what I
> am looking for,
> except I'm not certain how to implement it in situations where picking
> a hex on a map
> doesn't work, such as asking a player to select a hex to shoot 9,000
> miles away.
This seems like a perfectly reasonable way to do it (and is, in fact,
how *I* would handle it).
If the target is 9000 miles away (or any distance where he cannot be
seen), I would STILL ask the PC which hex he was targetting. When I got
the expected answer of "How the hell am *I* supposed to know which hex
to target?", I would answer with.... "Exactly."
Just because he has NRP on his attack does NOT give him some mystical
knowledge of where his target is.
If you had an invisable villian (that the PCs could not detect in any
way), and the PCs all declared that they were just going to fire their
attacks randomly - would you allow them to be successful if they hit
with an OCV 0? Or would you expect them to declare which hex they were
targetting? Same situation.
Todd
--
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BadTodd@dacmail.net winter is coming, winter is here.
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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:46:02 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: RPG "collectors"
Cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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This is a generic RPG question, but I thought I'd float it on this list
since it's the only RPG I'm currently active in and because I got one vote
from a list member to post generic questions, and zero votes against. If
anyone has objections to this sort of thing on the Hero list, let me know
and I'll be happy to oblige. If there are no objections, I have some other
questions of a generic nature waiting in the wings....
I've realized within the last year that I'm an "RPG collector". Not to say
that I buy RPGs for monetary value (do RPGs ever increase in value?) or
that I hunt down out-of-print games.... What I mean is, I will buy RPGs
that interest me solely to read about the settings, even if I am almost
certain that my current group will have no interest in playing that game.
Sometimes, I don't even read the rules sections of these RPGs...I just read
about setting descriptions (which includes character types, vehicle
descriptions, and so forth). Games I've picked up recently which would fit
in this category: Fading Suns, Cyberpunk 2020, Ars Magica, and my latest
purchase, Deadlands. There are others I have my eye on: Legend of the
Five Rings, Waste World, and Heavy Gear, just to name a few. Of course, I
only pick up games that I would like to play, so I am constantly struggling
over whether to stick with the current game or switch to another.
Is anyone else out there guilty of this, or do you pretty much stick with
one system (presumably Hero, seeing as you're on this list) and spend your
available resources buying supplements for that system? So far I have been
able to restrain my "habit" by only buying the basic rulebooks...however,
usually the supplements offer much more in the way of setting information
than the basic rulebook does, so I have been tempted (especially with
Fading Suns supplements...Deadlands looks like it will be the same).
Anyway, I guess I'm just looking to see if most roleplayers like to horde
different systems, or if I'm somewhat unusual in this respect. When I show
a new RPG to my gaming group, they just shake their heads sadly as if to
say that they see my addiction but don't know what to do about it. -grin-
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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:08:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: RPG "collectors"
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Personally, I'll buy any RPG as long as it looks interesting and has
possible uses as a Hero sourcebook. I own a mess of Shadowrun books
becuase of this, as well as a scattering of GURPS books. A friend of my
collect RPGs like crazy and owns a whole slew of them. Often I find that
an RPG will have neat stuff I can use else where (such as Lace and Steel,
a fantasty game set in the technological era of 1580 to 1620 or so). I
play Hero exclusivly, since I feel it can be used to simulate most
anything, but buy other games as sourcebooks.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:12:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: CHAR: The Comedian
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"Once you figure out what a a joke everything is,
being the Comedian's the only thing that makes sense."
THE COMEDIAN
(Edward Blake)
Val CHA Cost Roll Notes
20 STR 10 13- 400kg; 4d6
18 DEX 24 13- OCV: 6 / DCV: 6
20 CON 20 13-
13 BODY 6 12-
18 INT 8 13- PER Roll 13-
13 EGO 6 12- ECV: 4
23 PRE 16 14- PRE Attack: 4 1/2d6
8 COM -1 11-
10 PD 8 Total: 13 PD / 3 PDr
10 ED 8 Total: 13 ED / 3 EDr
4 SPD 12 Phases: 3, 6, 9, 12
8 REC 0
40 END 0
35 STUN 2
Total Characteristics Cost: 119
Movement: Running: 6" / 12"
Swimming: 2" / 4"
Cost Powers & Skills
Combat Training:
32 Combat Skill Levels: +4 with Combat
2 Martial Arts: Dirty Infighting; Use art with clubs, knife
Maneuver OCV DCV Damage
4 Block +2 +2 Block, Abort
4 Disarm -1 +1 30 STR Disarm
4 Kidney Blow -2 +0 1/2d6 HKA (+d6+1 with STR)
4 Low Blow -1 +1 2d6 NND (3)
4 Punch +0 +2 6d6 Strike
5 Uppercut -2 +1 8d6 Strike
Equipment:
27 Ingram M-11: 1d6+1 RKA, AF 5 (+1/2), +1 Stun (+1/2), +1 OCV,
2 Clips of 32 Shots (+1/2), OAF (-1)
5 Silencer for M-11: Invisible Power Effects: Hearing, OAF (-1)
14 Colt M1911A1: 1d6+1 RKA, +1 Stun, +1 OCV, 7 Shots (-1/2), OAF (-1)
14 A Second Colt M1911A1
53 Tear Gas Grenades: 3d6 Flash vs Sight, 2d6 EB, NND (Def is sealed
systems, or not needing to breathe) (+1), AoE Radius 3" (+1),
Continuous (+1), 4 shots of 1 Turn each (-1/2), OAF (-1), Range
based on STR (-1/4), No effect in high winds or rain (-1/4)
6 Billy Club: HA: +3d6, 0 END (+1/2), OAF (-1)
12 Boot Knife: 1d6-1 HKA, Ranged (+1/2), +1 OCV, 0 END (+1/2),
OAF (-1)
4 Leather Body Armor: Armor: 3 DEF, 0 Affect vs Guns (-1/2),
Act 14- (-1/2), OIF (-1/2)
2 Rebreather: Life Support vs Smoke and Gases, OAF (-1)
Background Skills:
4 Contact: CIA 13-
4 Contact: Federal Govt 13-
4 Contact: Military 13-
3 Contortionist 13-
5 Demolitions 12-
5 Forgery 12-
3 Interrogation 14-
3 KS: Camouflage 13-
3 KS: Cartography 13-
3 KS: Electronic Counter-measures 13-
3 KS: Military/Mercenary/Terrorist World 13-
3 Lockpicking 13-
3 Persuasion 14-
3 Security Systems 13-
3 Stealth 13-
3 Tactics 13-
2 TF: Gound Vehicles
3 Tracking 13-
6 WF: Flame Thrower, Grenade Launcher, Knife, Small Arms, Thrown
Knife
262 Total Powers & Skills Cost
381 Total Character Cost
100+ Disadvantages
15 Enraged: Combat 14- / 8-
10 Distinctive Features: Scarred Face (C)
20 Normal Characteristic Maxima
Psychological Limitation:
10 "Life is a joke", Comedian is noted for his callous and amoral
behavior (C)
15 Violent and Brutal (VC)
10 Reputation: Comedian, Govt Operative with shady connections 11-
15 Secret ID: Edward Blake
13 Watched: US Govt (MoPow, NCI) 11-
173 Experience
381 Total Disadvantage Points
Designers Notes:
Born in 1924, Edward Blake started out trying to clean up the New York
waterfront in 1939. He joined the Minutemen after the team was formed in
'39, but was expelled for trying to rape Sally Jupiter (Silk Spectre I) in
1940. After nearly getting killed in a fight in 1941, he switched his
original costume for one of heavy leather. He then went on to fight in
WWII in the Pacific theater, returning a hero. In 1949 he met with Sally
Jupiter and ended up fathering Laurel Jane Juspeczyk (Silk Spectre II).
He was present at the Crimebusters meeting in 1966 (where Ozymandias first
conceived his idea for saving the world from itself). At some point
(possibly the late 50's) he became a government agent, working in Vietnam
and rescuing the Iranian hostages. His career came to an end in 1985,
when he discovered Ozymandias' island and the creature project housed
there. Shortly after return to New York, Ozymandias killed the Comedian.
Description:
The Comedian is a big man. He is tall and well-muscled (even at the age
of 61 he is still active as a superhero), with dark brown hair and a thin
mustache. In 1971 he was struck with a broken bottle severely scarring
the right side of his face.
Comedian's original costume consisted of a thin yellow 'jumpsuit' with
dark purple (or black) boots, gloves and shoulders. Later, he changed it
to a leather uniform, with a black short-sleeved shirt (with a blue left
sleeve and a red and white striped right sleeve), black pants, boots,
fingerless gloves and a full face mask. A rigid pauldron was worn on the
right shoulder.
Powers Notes:
The Comedian is a 'normal' human, a as such doesn't have an 'superpowers'
per say. He is in fantastic shape (despite his age) and has 40 years of
expereince to draw on. Comedian's primary powers are his weapons. He
normally carries two Colt M1911 pistols, a Ingram MAC-10 (with silencer),
tear gas grenades, a knife, billy club (etc).
Disadvantages Notes:
The DC Heroes RPG gave the Comedian an 'Enraged' type disad that does fit
with his character. He often lashes out violently at others; he tries to
rape Sally Jupiter, shoots a pregnant woman, and fires a riot gun (loaded
with rubber bullets) on protesters spray painting the side of a building.
As the Comedian, Edward Blake is deliberately amoral. As Dr. Manhattan
puts it in Chapter 4, "Blake's different. He understand perfectly... and
he doesn't care." Basically, the Comedian feels that life is a joke,
thus, why worry? Rorschach states that he admires Comedian for his
worldview; his forceful, uncomprimsing personality and the fact that he
didn't care if people liked him on not. Rorschach also commented that
Comedian was the one who understood where the world was going and what was
happening to society.
The Comedian is a hero people either like or hate. There are many who
look at him with suspicion, and with good reason. He killed Hooded
Justice after Justice violently stopped his assault on Sally Jupiter. He
was in Dallas when Kennedy was shot and no one knows why. He killed
Woodward and Bernstein (the men who broke the Watergate scandal). He has
a very cynical world view and really doesn't care about much of anything
(or anyone) other than himself.
(The Comedian created by Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons, character sheet
created by Michael Surbrook)
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:38:09 -0700
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Nic Neidenbach <naneiden@iswest.com>
Subject: Re: RPG "collectors"
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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I'm much the same way. If a RPG comes out in a genre I'm interested in, I
might pick it up. I've got a collection of Mekton, Deadlands, L5R and other
superhero game books.
Some of the books I use for source material, others I have just for a good
read, and still others I have just in case I ever get to play. Take Feng
Shui for instance, a great read, I never played it until this last GAMEX
convention in LA. There I played in a great game, and hope to play again at
the next convention.
-Nic
PS By way of report on GAMEX back on memorial day weekend. It was even
better than this year's Orccon. I was _overjoyed_ to note that there was no
one selling bootleg videos this year, and security was very polite and
professional this year.
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:40:06 -0700
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From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net>
>
> Filksinger wrote:
>
> > Once upon a time, there was a rule that, in order to hit a target you
> > couldn't see, you
> > not only needed to hit with a 0 OCV, but you had to declare the
> > correct hex to shoot. If
> > the target wasn't there, you missed, period. This is more like what I
> > am looking for,
> > except I'm not certain how to implement it in situations where picking
> > a hex on a map
> > doesn't work, such as asking a player to select a hex to shoot 9,000
> > miles away.
>
>
> This seems like a perfectly reasonable way to do it (and is, in fact,
> how *I* would handle it).
>
> If the target is 9000 miles away (or any distance where he cannot be
> seen), I would STILL ask the PC which hex he was targetting. When I got
> the expected answer of "How the hell am *I* supposed to know which hex
> to target?", I would answer with.... "Exactly."
I would agree, save that the character may be much better at this than the
player. There is no mechanic for using AK: North America, AK: Washington,
DC, and AK: White House in order to more accurately aim one's power when
firing from Dallas to the Oval Office.
That might be excessive, but the target could be much closer than that. A
character with AK: Blood Mountain, 17- has a much better chance of
selecting the right hex to hit his target, even when surrounded by
Darkness, than a player given a blank map and told, "Here is what you can
see. Where did you want to fire?"
> Just because he has NRP on his attack does NOT give him some mystical
> knowledge of where his target is.
Quite correct. I have been trying to develop a mechanic for this _because_
NRP gives no such magical ability, but a literal interpretation of the
rules, when applied to NRP, gives it one by default.
> If you had an invisable villian (that the PCs could not detect in any
> way), and the PCs all declared that they were just going to fire their
> attacks randomly - would you allow them to be successful if they hit
> with an OCV 0? Or would you expect them to declare which hex they were
> targetting? Same situation.
Would I? No. However, at this time, if the heroes were to do that, the
rules state that they _would_ hit. That's what I am objecting to.
Filksinger
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From: SteveL1979@aol.com
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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:42:20 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Power Modifiers List
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Does anyone out there, either on the Web or otherwise, have a list of all
the Power Modifiers (mainly Limited Powers and new Modifiers) used in
published Hero System products? I seem to recall seeing such a list
somewhere. I'd like to review it to see what, if anything, is worth including
(or clarifying) in 5th Ed.
Steve Long
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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:45:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Secret Identities
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
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---Chad Riley wrote:
>
>
>
> Guy Hoyle wrote:
>
> > Most superheroes have secret identities for one of a few reasons:
> >
> > 1) They allow the superhero to have some semblance of a "normal"
life (ex., Superman, Peter Parker)
> > 2) They give them resources that allow them to carry out their
"true" work (ex., Batman)
> > 3) The costumed persona IS the secret ID (they had a life before
they had powers) (ex. Captain Marvel)
> >
> > Has anybody come up with any different twists on the secret ID?
For example, what if a good-guy superhero had a secret identity so
that he could blow off steam? He might be a real jerk to be around in
his "normal" identity.
> >
> > Guy
> >
> > Uncommon Solutions...when you need a better way!
> > http://www.uncommonsolutions.com
>
> How about the female super vigilante who is in reality male? Saw it
in Villains Unlimited.
I ran a hero for a while who wsa also a cat burglar (made for much fun
trying to keep this from the other players.)
-=>John Desmarais
_________________________________________________________
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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:49:11 -0400 (EDT)
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> From: Joe Mucchiello [mailto:why@superlink.net]
> Its still to powerful an effect. Keep in mind that it could be used by a villain, it could
> be set to just keep slapping you down until you can't take it, and whether or not you are
> in costume or not has nothing to do with whether or not a PER roll against you fails.
Yes, it's a powerful effect, but that is how the Game Mechanic works.
> > Okay, forget about NRP. Ten people are in a pitch black warehouse with
> > guns. One of them just starts shooting a random. He is 0 OCV against
> > everyone else. He has a small chance to hit them. If they are normals
> > then he is 8- to hit someone within 4", 6- within 8", 4- within 16", etc,
> > not counting cover (crates and whatnot). No matter what he rolls, if
> > something is between him and the target he will miss (SFX). But if the
> > dice indicate a hit, he hits. Do you disagree with this?
> >
> > If so, why?
>
> I agree.
>
> > If not, then NRP works exactly the same way just over a larger range of
> > possible hits. He's 8- against a 3 DCV target within range of his power.
>
> It still, carried to an extreme that is not excessive for a superhero campaign, especially
> in the hands of a powerful mega-villain, gives silly results.
>
> > I think your problem with this is NRP. NRP makes no sense. "The farther
> > away something is the more likely you are to hit" is just common sense.
>
> Uh, maybe I'm missing something here. Was this a typo?
What? I'm saying NRP, in general, does not make sense. See below.
> > But, if you find a special effect where NRP makes sense, this is how it
> > should work.
>
> I disagree.
What is the difference? NRP just changes the numbers.
Tell me why NRP is there. What special effect would be just as accurate
at 2 meters as 20 km? Any kind of effect where my OCV is equally
effective at 2 meters and 20 km is unimaginable. But if you come up with
such a special effect, then whether my OCV is 3, 10 or 0, the power will
still hit if I make the correct roll.
> Once upon a time, there was a rule that, in order to hit a target you couldn't see, you
> not only needed to hit with a 0 OCV, but you had to declare the correct hex to shoot. If
> the target wasn't there, you missed, period. This is more like what I am looking for,
> except I'm not certain how to implement it in situations where picking a hex on a map
> doesn't work, such as asking a player to select a hex to shoot 9,000 miles away.
This penalizes the character for something player cannot do. Besdies, you
agreed with my pure luck example above. In the warehouse, would you ask
the character to pick a hex? The character is in the room he knows the
general direction to fire in and when he fires he might angle the gun just
enough to miss the hex the player indicates and hit the target in the next
hex.
What if the special effect is that NRP power uses senses that the
character does not have to determine the location of the target? The
character just describes the target, activates the power, and off it goes.
The character can give targetting information if he has it ("Hit Mr. Bad
over there" pointing), otherwise the power just figures it out for itself
("Hit Mr. Bad").
Joe
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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:03:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: RPG "collectors"
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
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---David Stallard wrote:
>
> Anyway, I guess I'm just looking to see if most roleplayers like to
horde
> different systems, or if I'm somewhat unusual in this respect. When
I show
> a new RPG to my gaming group, they just shake their heads sadly as
if to
> say that they see my addiction but don't know what to do about it.
-grin-
I've bought many supplements for games that I have no intention of
ever playing just because they had interesting source material to
steal for Hero. There are also some games that I buy just to read
(Castle Falkenstien comes to mind - I don't play it, but the books are
fun to read).
==
==============================================
John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org>
==============================================
# Keeper of the Hero Mailing List. Got a question about #
# the list? Scope out www.sysabend.org/champions #
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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:11:28 -0500
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net>
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
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Filksinger wrote:
> Quite correct. I have been trying to develop a mechanic for this _because_
> NRP gives no such magical ability, but a literal interpretation of the
> rules, when applied to NRP, gives it one by default.
I guess I don't understand why you are making such an issue out of
this. NRP does nothing more than give NO RANGE PENALTY. You still have
to know where the target is. If you don't know, you can't target it.
Your question should be - can he perceive the target? If so, he can
fire on it (with no range penalty). If not, he has no clue where to
fire and will NEVER hit the target, no matter HOW good his roll is.
"I keep firing at that hex over there until I roll a 3. Did I hit
Foxbat?"
I don't understand how an AK would tell him where the target is. It
might tell him POSSIBLE places the target could be, but it isnt going to
tell him where the target is at any given time. (unless he knows that
the target always sits on his porch from noon to 3pm, THEN he could use
his AK to know where the guy's porch is... )
> Would I? No. However, at this time, if the heroes were to do that, the
> rules state that they _would_ hit. That's what I am objecting to.
The rulebook is full of things that can be interpreted to mean things
that don't make sense. Apply a little common sense and move on. Not
everything has to be argued into submission.
If the PCs don't know which hex to target, they don't hit. If your
players can't accept a ruling as simple as that, then it's time to look
for new players.
Todd
--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Todd Hanson Minnesota: Land of two seasons:
BadTodd@dacmail.net winter is coming, winter is here.
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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:13:50 +0200
From: Rog <uraeus@bunt.com>
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: RPG "collectors"
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David Stallard wrote:
<snip>
> Anyway, I guess I'm just looking to see if most roleplayers like to horde
> different systems, or if I'm somewhat unusual in this respect. When I show
> a new RPG to my gaming group, they just shake their heads sadly as if to
> say that they see my addiction but don't know what to do about it. -grin-
I have to admit my addiction too. I own many different systems, and
not just basic rulebooks, many supplements as well. I _do_ dwell over
the rules as well as background info. Often I create several characters
for each system just to get a feel for it.
And while I'm always game (pun intended) to try a new system, I have
only actually played/GM'd a few. In fact the last group I was in
(over 2 years ago now..yipes!) we mainly played AD&D (so shoot me..
the GM was good and we had fun), some DC Heroes (sorry, but that's what
the GM wanted to run...and it was fun as well) and I GM'd a few
sessions of Twilight 2000.
Before that I had about 3 people that I Gm'd a Champions campaign for a
few months and then real life intruded and all of us got stuck on
incompatible schedules.
-Roger
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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:20:57 +0200
From: Rog <uraeus@bunt.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Secret Identities
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John Desmarais wrote:
>
> I ran a hero for a while who wsa also a cat burglar (made for much fun
> trying to keep this from the other players.)
>
Heh...great minds think alike. I created a heroine named Maus a while
back, who in her spare time was a thief...had to be real careful 'cause
one person in her group suspected something was up....and they were a
partially government supported group (Watched).
-Roger
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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:23:20 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: RPG "collectors"
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> Is anyone else out there guilty of this, or do you pretty much stick with
> one system (presumably Hero, seeing as you're on this list) and spend your
> available resources buying supplements for that system? So far I have been
> able to restrain my "habit" by only buying the basic rulebooks...however,
> usually the supplements offer much more in the way of setting information
> than the basic rulebook does, so I have been tempted (especially with
> Fading Suns supplements...Deadlands looks like it will be the same).
I pick up what looks interesting -- though rarely whole systems.
Men In Black was the last whole system I picked up. (And I'm trying to
get ahold of Paranoia) Usually, however, I just grab suppliments and
such. I've even thought of grabbing some of the new AD&D suppliments for
Forgotten Realms, as I want to run a Fantasy Hero game in the Realms. But
I grab to add to Hero, for the most part.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:30:46 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Power Modifiers List
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> Does anyone out there, either on the Web or otherwise, have a list of all
> the Power Modifiers (mainly Limited Powers and new Modifiers) used in
> published Hero System products? I seem to recall seeing such a list
> somewhere. I'd like to review it to see what, if anything, is worth including
> (or clarifying) in 5th Ed.
I don't have that. But I do have a copy of a big list of
disadvantages. They might be from book products or, I think, book
products and others. Interested in that?
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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From: Lisa Hartjes <Hartjes@TCBS.net>
Reply-To: "Hartjes@TCBS.net" <Hartjes@TCBS.net>
To: "Hero System Listserv (E-mail)" <hero-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Speaking of lists...
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:40:00 -0400
Organization: Tri-City Business Services
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Does anyone know if there's a list somewhere out there that has all the
various magic (both pro, anti, and using) groups in the Champions Universe?
Lisa Hartjes
Bookkeeping Specialist
hartjes@tcbs.net
http://www.tcbs.net
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: "Dave Mattingly" <dmattingly@platsoft.com&>
"Hero System Listserv (E-mail)" <hero-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 98 19:01:24
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Power Question
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On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 06:51:11 -0700, Dave Mattingly wrote:
>> Lisa Hartjes [Hartjes@TCBS.net] asks:
>>
>>A character who becomes more effective in social situations
>>the more people there are around him.
>
>How about 6 or so 5-point levels in all PRE skills with a -1 lim of "+1
>per x2 people"?
How about using Oratory?
Or how about an AOE Transfer? Say only 1 pt PRE per person with a long
decay time.
qts
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: "David Stallard" <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 98 19:03:35
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: RPG "collectors"
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On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:46:02 -0400, David Stallard wrote:
>I've realized within the last year that I'm an "RPG collector".
<snip>
I tend to collect RPG magazines. What worries me is the cost of
replacing them (I have nearly 200 issues of Dragon, for instance).
qts
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: "Michael Surbrook" <susano@access.digex.net>
Cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 98 19:05:02
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: RPG "collectors"
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On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:08:53 -0400 (EDT), Michael Surbrook wrote:
>Often I find that
>an RPG will have neat stuff I can use else where (such as Lace and Steel,
>a fantasty game set in the technological era of 1580 to 1620 or so). I
>play Hero exclusivly, since I feel it can be used to simulate most
>anything, but buy other games as sourcebooks.
Yes - I'd like to see a Glorantha Hero, but never myself got further
than broad ideas.
qts
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 98 19:09:20
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: RPG "collectors"
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On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:23:20 -0500 (CDT), Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> (And I'm trying to get ahold of Paranoia)
<chortle>
Knowledge of the rules is security level Ultraviolet, citizen. Please
report immediately for reactor duty to Technician You-R-DMD. Have a
nice day-cycle.
qts
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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:32:23 -0400
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: RPG "collectors"
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I've long held that all RPG products, and most other books as well, are
supplements to the Hero System.
One RPG I bought most materials for was the DC Heroes game. Many of the
modules were among the best published RPG adventures I've seen. The writers
seemed determined to push the boundaries of RPG's, leading to some
interesting game structures like the "one on one" adventures with 2 players
GMing for each other in interweaving solo adventures. The Watchmen modules
and sourcebook were, as Michael Surbrook can attest, excellent. I played
both adventures after adapting them to Hero terms (I'll have to compare my
versions to Michael's); they did a good job of using motifs and themes
appropriate to the source material.
I was never even tempted to play DC Heroes with its own rule system. It had
a few interesting concepts to offer, but most of the useful parts of the
system were clearly modelled on Champions. And it had some severe flaws -
the Ambush Bug module even mocked part of the system; one of AB's
challenges for the heroes was to build a time machine using the gadget rules!
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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:35:08 -0400
To: <hero-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Speaking of lists...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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At 02:40 PM 6/10/98 -0400, Lisa Hartjes wrote:
>Does anyone know if there's a list somewhere out there that has all the
>various magic (both pro, anti, and using) groups in the Champions Universe?
There is, but anyone who reads it goes insane...
:-)
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:35:33 -0700
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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
>
> > From: Joe Mucchiello [mailto:why@superlink.net]
> > Its still to powerful an effect. Keep in mind that it could be used by
a villain, it could
> > be set to just keep slapping you down until you can't take it, and
whether or not you are
> > in costume or not has nothing to do with whether or not a PER roll
against you fails.
>
> Yes, it's a powerful effect, but that is how the Game Mechanic works.
Yes, at this time the Game Mechanic says that any ranged power will hit any
target in range with only normal range modifiers and a 0 OCV when you
cannot detect the target at all. While this is excessively ridiculous in
the case of extreme range NRP, it is silly with normal powers, as well. If
I don't have _any_ idea where the target is, I shouldn't be able to hit
except by great coincidence, but under the present rules I can hit with a 0
OCV. That's too easy.
<snip>
> >
> > > I think your problem with this is NRP. NRP makes no sense. "The
farther
> > > away something is the more likely you are to hit" is just common
sense.
> >
> > Uh, maybe I'm missing something here. Was this a typo?
>
> What?
You said that things that are farther away are easier to hit, and that this
was common sense. I always thought that things that were farther away were
harder to hit, myself.
>I'm saying NRP, in general, does not make sense. See below.
Arguable, but I might agree.
> > > But, if you find a special effect where NRP makes sense, this is how
it
> > > should work.
> >
> > I disagree.
>
> What is the difference? NRP just changes the numbers.
I agreed that that was how it worked. I disagreed that that was how it
_should_ work. I think that being completely unable to even guess where the
target is should be a greater penalty than 0 OCV, at least at range.
> Tell me why NRP is there. What special effect would be just as accurate
> at 2 meters as 20 km? Any kind of effect where my OCV is equally
> effective at 2 meters and 20 km is unimaginable.
Unimaginable to whom? I could imagine a few possibilities. You would
probably refuse to allow them as NRP, however, creating a whole new (and
probably pointless) discussion.
You are suggesting that NRP should never be more than a massive reduction
in range modifiers, if I understand you, or levels to counteract RMods. I
could agree with this. That does eliminate the problem of NRP while blind,
as the bonus granted by those levels will be negated when blind, leaving
you with normal range modifiers.
>But if you come up with
> such a special effect, then whether my OCV is 3, 10 or 0, the power will
> still hit if I make the correct roll.
Why? The present game mechanic says so, I admit, but I have a lot more
trouble imagining a power that can hit with 0 OCV at maximum range _when
you don't even know where the target is_ than I do powers with NRP.
> > Once upon a time, there was a rule that, in order to hit a target you
couldn't see, you
> > not only needed to hit with a 0 OCV, but you had to declare the correct
hex to shoot. If
> > the target wasn't there, you missed, period. This is more like what I
am looking for,
> > except I'm not certain how to implement it in situations where picking
a hex on a map
> > doesn't work, such as asking a player to select a hex to shoot 9,000
miles away.
>
> This penalizes the character for something player cannot do. Besdies, you
> agreed with my pure luck example above. In the warehouse, would you ask
> the character to pick a hex?
Yes. I would require a character who failed his PER rolls, and thus has no
idea where his enemy is, to tell me where he is shooting. If he is shooting
north, and all of his targets are south, he misses. Period.
>The character is in the room he knows the
> general direction to fire in
Why? The initial example was people who have failed their PER rolls. Under
the present rules, you don't even have to suspect the enemy's _direction_
to hit him using a 0 OCV.
> and when he fires he might angle the gun just
> enough to miss the hex the player indicates and hit the target in the
next
> hex.
He might. However, the example I started with was _he has no idea where the
target is_. Under the present rules, he still gets a 0 OCV.
> What if the special effect is that NRP power uses senses that the
> character does not have to determine the location of the target? The
> character just describes the target, activates the power, and off it
goes.
> The character can give targetting information if he has it ("Hit Mr. Bad
> over there" pointing), otherwise the power just figures it out for itself
> ("Hit Mr. Bad").
If the weapon has the ability to sense things that the character cannot,
then you need to buy more senses. If it can be given instructions and
carries them out, then it needs a Computer with the proper program.
Filksinger
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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:16:13 -0700
To: "Hero System Listserv (E-mail)" <hero-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Power Question
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 09:36 AM 6/10/1998 -0400, Lisa Hartjes wrote:
>I'm thinking about making a character who becomes more effective in social
>situations (i.e.. Conversation, Persuasion, Oratory) the more people there
>are around him. So, he's far more effective when dealing with 100 people
>than he is with 1 person.
>
>Can I get some suggestions on how to do this?
I had to ruminate on this one for a while. The best way I can think of
to do this is extra PRE, or possibly PRE Aid, with a successive Limitation
according to how many people he's dealing with (+5 PRE around 5+ people, +5
PRE around 10+ people, +5 PRE around 25+ people, and so forth).
Someone else (like Dave) might have a better idea.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:25:55 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: RPG "collectors"
Cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Thanks to everyone that has replied so far...it seems that I'm not unusual
at all, but that the unsual gamer might be the one who DOESN'T scarf up
more systems than he can practically play.
The big difference between my own "habit" and that of most everyone else is
that most people said they buy other RPG material so they can get ideas for
their Hero games. For me, it's just to discover a neat new
setting...conversion never enters my mind. The only game I think I
considered picking up solely for Hero ideas was Heroes Unlimited...I
thought that maybe the power lists could give me some new ideas for Hero
character concepts. However, I heard so much negative stuff about HU (and
Palladium in general) that I chickened out.
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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:25:59 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Superhero fiction?
Cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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It seems to me that there isn't much superhero fiction (novels, short
stories) available. I wonder if this is because comic books already fill
that niche, or if there just isn't that much interest outside of the comic
book/RPG crowd? Or maybe you need the comic art to do justice to the
genre? Do you know of any great superhero fiction (comic-based, RPG-based,
or otherwise) out there? Here's what I'm familiar with:
* The Wild Cards series
* I have a book which is a collection of short stories...it's titled
"Superheroes" with maybe a sub-title...green and black cover....
* I've seen (but not read) novels about various Marvel heroes...Spider-Man
and Iron Man are all that come to mind, but there are probably others. I
don't know if there are novels based on DC heroes or not....
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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:32:53 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: RPG "collectors"
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 02:55 PM 6/10/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
>Subject: RPG "collectors"
>Cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
>
>This is a generic RPG question, but I thought I'd float it on this list
>since it's the only RPG I'm currently active in and because I got one vote
>from a list member to post generic questions, and zero votes against. If
>anyone has objections to this sort of thing on the Hero list, let me know
>and I'll be happy to oblige. If there are no objections, I have some other
>questions of a generic nature waiting in the wings....
I should have mentioned this earlier, but I too would consider your
"generic questions" to be quite welcome here -- as long as traffic is light
enough to handle the extra load! :-]
>Is anyone else out there guilty of this, or do you pretty much stick with
>one system (presumably Hero, seeing as you're on this list) and spend your
>available resources buying supplements for that system? So far I have been
>able to restrain my "habit" by only buying the basic rulebooks...however,
>usually the supplements offer much more in the way of setting information
>than the basic rulebook does, so I have been tempted (especially with
>Fading Suns supplements...Deadlands looks like it will be the same).
>
>Anyway, I guess I'm just looking to see if most roleplayers like to horde
>different systems, or if I'm somewhat unusual in this respect. When I show
>a new RPG to my gaming group, they just shake their heads sadly as if to
>say that they see my addiction but don't know what to do about it. -grin-
For financial reasons, I've stuck with Hero, and I don't even have all
of the books long those lines that I'd like to (I still don't have Widows &
Orphans, Blood Fury [I think it's called], or Heroic Adventures #2).
If I had the level of money I wanted, I'd probably be guilty of the
opposite thing you do, David; I'd be grabbing books with specific rules
systems so I could build my own quick yet detailed systems. I certainly
wish I'd had more non-Hero books to consult for The Ultimate Super Vehicle
than I did, but fortunately I had a wealth of TV, movies, videos, and other
stuff to look through for ideas.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:32:39 -0700
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From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net>
>
> Filksinger wrote:
>
> > Quite correct. I have been trying to develop a mechanic for this
_because_
> > NRP gives no such magical ability, but a literal interpretation of the
> > rules, when applied to NRP, gives it one by default.
>
>
> I guess I don't understand why you are making such an issue out of
> this. NRP does nothing more than give NO RANGE PENALTY. You still have
> to know where the target is.
Because, when I asked for suggestions for how well you could tell where the
target is, and what the determination should be based on, I was told that
all that was necessary for firing blind was try to make a PER roll, and if
you failed take a 0 OCV and shoot. I was trying to explain why I thought
that this mechanic was insufficient, so I pointed out that this allowed you
to take a 0 OCV at any target, anywhere in range, if you had NRP, as an
example of when it fails.
>If you don't know, you can't target it.
Under the present rules, you can. I am trying to create a replacement
mechanic for the present rules, and asked for suggestions, but was told
that they worked as is. I only wished to show that they didn't, by pushing
them so far that it was easy to see they were broken.
> Your question should be - can he perceive the target? If so, he can
> fire on it (with no range penalty). If not, he has no clue where to
> fire and will NEVER hit the target, no matter HOW good his roll is.
If he can't perceive the target, he may know where it is due to AK (if his
target is immobile), suggestions from others who can sense the target
("Quick, fire at that doorway!"), non-targeting information combined with
AK (I can see him on my cameras, know he is listening at that door, and I
know that door, even though I can't see it from here, is right about
there.), or guesses.
Under the present rules, however, all I need to do is make a PER roll,
fail, and roll with a 0 OCV.
> "I keep firing at that hex over there until I roll a 3. Did I hit
> Foxbat?"
Depends upon whether or not Foxbat was in that hex, doesn't it?
Unfortunately, under the present rules, I could fire at random, and if a 3
would hit with an OCV of 0, I would hit without even knowing what direction
he is in.
> I don't understand how an AK would tell him where the target is.
The way you appear to mean it, it doesn't, exactly. However, it can _help_
you to determine where the target is, or it can help you make your guesses
as to where a particular target is in relation to you. If you have AK for
the street outside your apartment window, and you know the target is
sitting in front of a particular cafe, you might be able to hit him without
being able to see. Without the AK, you can't.
> It
> might tell him POSSIBLE places the target could be, but it isnt going to
> tell him where the target is at any given time.
Absolutely correct.
>(unless he knows that
> the target always sits on his porch from noon to 3pm, THEN he could use
> his AK to know where the guy's porch is... )
_Exactly_ my point.
> > Would I? No. However, at this time, if the heroes were to do that, the
> > rules state that they _would_ hit. That's what I am objecting to.
>
> The rulebook is full of things that can be interpreted to mean things
> that don't make sense.
Exactly my position from the beginning.
> Apply a little common sense and move on. Not
> everything has to be argued into submission.
I asked for suggestions for a new rule, because I thought the original rule
made, as you just stated, no sense. I got people saying that the present
rule was just fine. I argued against that point, and I get you arguing with
me that the present rule "don't make sense" (my position from the
beginning), and that I should use "common sense". I don't want "common
sense", I want suggestions for a replacement mechanic.
> If the PCs don't know which hex to target, they don't hit. If your
> players can't accept a ruling as simple as that, then it's time to look
> for new players.
Then, if the people I have been arguing this with on the list are my
players, I should get new players?
There are lots of situations where a PER roll is impossible, but targeting
can still be done. They include the standard use of mortars and other
indirect fire weapons and shooting at targets when you can't see them but
know from experience where they should be, such as buildings.
All I am asking for is suggestions for a mechanic for determining the
difficulty of doing things like this. It should cover the fairly easy
(Player: "'Back, invisible varlet!' I swing my sword around me, in case he
is trying to sneak up on me." (Rolls dice.) GM: "Good roll. 'Ouch! You'll
pay for this, knight!' You hear sounds of someone running away."), the
fairly difficult ("He released this sight and sound suppression device
because he is trying to escape, I'll bet, probably through that window the
alarm said was broken. I know the room well, so I fire in the direction of
that window." (Rolls dice.) GM: "The room suddenly lightens. You see the
burglar lying on the ground under the high window. You don't seem to have
hit him, though you did hit the window. You suspect he lost his grip when
you frightened him by nearly blowing his head off."), to the very difficult
("My super ray can strike anywhere on Earth, once it gets precise
coordinates. I have spent three days aiming it, calculating the exact
distance, angle, and slope. As soon as the TV says you are driving in front
of that store, Mr. President, you will pay! HAHAHAHAHA!").
I wanted a new mechanic that would cover all of these. What I've gotten so
far is people telling me that the present rules are sufficient, and people
telling me the present rules don't work and to use "common sense".
Filksinger
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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:34:00 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: RPG "collectors"
Cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by Rog
>And while I'm always game (pun intended) to try a new system, I have
only actually played/GM'd a few. In fact the last group I was in
(over 2 years ago now..yipes!) we mainly played AD&D (so shoot me..
the GM was good and we had fun), some DC Heroes (sorry, but that's what
the GM wanted to run...and it was fun as well) and I GM'd a few
sessions of Twilight 2000. <
If I made a list of all the RPGs I own and marked all the ones I've played,
there would be an embarrassing lack of marks next to the list. Until
recently when I finally admitted to myself that I just like buying them
even if I can't play 'em, every game I bought was something I intended to
play but couldn't get the gaming group to try.
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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:34:24 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Secret Identities
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 06:20 PM 6/10/1998 +0200, Rog wrote:
>John Desmarais wrote:
>> I ran a hero for a while who wsa also a cat burglar (made for much fun
>> trying to keep this from the other players.)
>
>Heh...great minds think alike. I created a heroine named Maus a while
>back, who in her spare time was a thief...had to be real careful 'cause
>one person in her group suspected something was up....and they were a
>partially government supported group (Watched).
I did something similar once. My PC, the team leader with Public ID,
took on a Secret ID to go undercover with the villains. Unfortunately the
campaign collapsed before the plotline he did this for could be resolved....
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:34:55 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: RPG "collectors"
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by Bill Svitavsky
>One RPG I bought most materials for was the DC Heroes game. Many of the
modules were among the best published RPG adventures I've seen. The writers
seemed determined to push the boundaries of RPG's, leading to some
interesting game structures like the "one on one" adventures with 2 players
GMing for each other in interweaving solo adventures.<
I miss the days when RPG adventures were abundant. These days, sourcebooks
are the norm and the GM is left to make his own adventures outside of a few
brief plot synopses. It seems like AD&D, from what I see when I glance
over their stuff on the shelf, is starting to reverse this trend and
publish a lot more adventures these days. While I agree that a sourcebook
is more useful in the long run (it could spawn countless adventures),
there's something about a published adventure that I just like. Most of
the published adventures I've run/played were for D&D (not AD&D), way back
when that stuff still came in self-contained boxes and you had to color in
the numbers on your dice with the provided crayon. I dunno, maybe it's
just a nostalgia thing....
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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:58:12 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Superhero fiction?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 08:34 PM 6/10/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Superhero fiction?
>Cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
>
>It seems to me that there isn't much superhero fiction (novels, short
>stories) available. I wonder if this is because comic books already fill
>that niche, or if there just isn't that much interest outside of the comic
>book/RPG crowd? Or maybe you need the comic art to do justice to the
>genre? Do you know of any great superhero fiction (comic-based, RPG-based,
>or otherwise) out there? Here's what I'm familiar with:
>
>* The Wild Cards series
>* I have a book which is a collection of short stories...it's titled
>"Superheroes" with maybe a sub-title...green and black cover....
>* I've seen (but not read) novels about various Marvel heroes...Spider-Man
>and Iron Man are all that come to mind, but there are probably others. I
>don't know if there are novels based on DC heroes or not....
Besides this, I know that there are novelizations of the "Knightfall"
era of Batman (from when Bane first appeared, until shortly after he got
back the use of his legs), and "The Death and Life of Superman" (from when
Doomsday first appeared, until the situations with the four "replacement"
Supermen were resolved).
That's all I know of.
There was some talk a couple of years ago about Hero Games reaching out
into story publication, but I think it fell through, or at least got put on
hold as they got themselves in gear with RTG. I've heard a few similar
noises from GRG, but I don't think there's anything even remotely solid
there.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:23:24 -0400
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: RPG "collectors"
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 05:34 PM 6/10/98 -0400, David Stallard wrote:
>I miss the days when RPG adventures were abundant. These days, sourcebooks
>are the norm and the GM is left to make his own adventures outside of a few
>brief plot synopses.
I miss the days of adventure modules a lot. For some reason I seem to be in
a minority about this, but I find single adventures a lot more useful than
a sourcebook.
My usual inclination is to create a world that is entirely mine; when I run
a superhero game, for example, I use none of the Champions universe but
create all my own setting and characters. Sourcebooks don't offer me a
whole lot, other than some basic items, character types, and phenomena from
different genres & periods.
Every so often I like to do something different, though, like a one shot
adventure in a different genre than I usually run. Or maybe just a quick
game of any genre on the spur of the moment. It would be nice if there were
more packaged adventures around all set to run.
For me, the freedom to create my own worlds entirely is a big part of the
appeal of the Hero System; this makes sourcebooks for the Champions
Universe the last thing I want to see. I'm perfectly capable of creating my
own campaigns, and enjoy doing so. What I'd like is some adventures that
are ready to run for those occasions when I lack the time or energy to
prepare them.
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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:34:45 -0400
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: RPG "collectors"
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 01:32 PM 6/10/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> If I had the level of money I wanted, I'd probably be guilty of the
>opposite thing you do, David; I'd be grabbing books with specific rules
>systems so I could build my own quick yet detailed systems. I certainly
>wish I'd had more non-Hero books to consult for The Ultimate Super Vehicle
>than I did, but fortunately I had a wealth of TV, movies, videos, and other
>stuff to look through for ideas.
Well, Bob, I'd say that by drawing from genre source material more than
from vehicle rules in existing RPG's, you risked, um, re-inventing the
wheel. :-)
But seriously, I'm looking forward to seeing the finished USV. Any word on
when it will be available?
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RPG "collectors"
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:41:12 -0500
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David Stallard writes:
<bunch of stuff snipped>
>Anyway, I guess I'm just looking to see if most roleplayers like to horde
>different systems, or if I'm somewhat unusual in this respect. When I
show
>a new RPG to my gaming group, they just shake their heads sadly as if to
>say that they see my addiction but don't know what to do about it. -grin-
I buy all kinds of games for both settings and rules. Since Hero is
infinitely adaptable, any rule or setting has potentional ideas for ...
Hero. Not only do I never play anything else, but I don't even deviate
from FH. We talked about doing science fiction, but it never got off the
ground because our group would all rather play FH.
Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:16:23 -0400
To: champ-l@omg.org
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Superhero fiction?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 02:58 PM 6/10/98 -0700, you wrote:
>At 08:34 PM 6/10/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>>From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
>>Subject: Superhero fiction?
>>Cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
>>
>>It seems to me that there isn't much superhero fiction (novels, short
>>stories) available. I wonder if this is because comic books already fill
>>that niche, or if there just isn't that much interest outside of the comic
>>book/RPG crowd? Or maybe you need the comic art to do justice to the
>>genre? Do you know of any great superhero fiction (comic-based, RPG-based,
>>or otherwise) out there?
Many of the conventions of comic book superheroes work best in a visual
form, I think, so it's rare to find all the elements in one narrative in a
different medium. Tights and capes are a bit unlikely, so it's not too
surprising that they seldom translate media. But it's possible to find
plenty of stories in various formats about crimefighting, paranormal
abilities, and heroic ideals and acts.
If you start defining "superhero" a little more broadly, there are plenty
of books. Philip Wylie's _Gladiator_ was one of the inspirations for
Superman, and Pulp heroes like Doc Savage, Tarzan, and the Shadow weren't
far from their superheroic successors. I haven't read E.E. Doc Smith's
Lensmen series, but I gather it has some superheroic dimensions to it. For
that matter, Sherlock Holmes, the Scarlet Pimpernel, and many mythic heroes
aren't that far off either.
If we stick to a really strict interpretation of superheroes, though, (and
if we're really strict I don't know if Wild Cards qualifies), the list is
considerably shorter. Jerry Siegel and/or Joe Shuster in the 1940's or
50's, I believe, which was reprinted a year or two ago. In the wake of
Superman: the Movie there were several other Superman novels by Eliot S!
Maggin which were surprisingly good. A few years ago a well-known crime
fiction writer (whose name escapes me) wrote a fairly gritty novel (I also
forget the title) about Batman dealing with Asian child prostitution.
There's also been quite a bit of superhero prose written within comic
books. This has been done as far back as the Golden Age, and continues
sporadically today. Denny O'Neil has written some nice Batman text pieces,
and Alan Moore even wrote some prose for some British comics annuals.
I'm sure there are more, but these are the ones that spring to my mind.
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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:34:34 -0700
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: RPG "collectors"
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 06:23 PM 6/10/1998 -0400, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>At 05:34 PM 6/10/98 -0400, David Stallard wrote:
>
>>I miss the days when RPG adventures were abundant. These days, sourcebooks
>>are the norm and the GM is left to make his own adventures outside of a few
>>brief plot synopses.
>
>I miss the days of adventure modules a lot. For some reason I seem to be in
>a minority about this, but I find single adventures a lot more useful than
>a sourcebook.
The adventures on my website are something of a response to this. Of
those who have written to me about them, only about half use them with the
characters they're written for; others adapt them to the NPCs they have in
their own campaigns, using just the concepts and plotlines to move things
along. ("A Fine Place to Die" and "A Frame of a Different Color" seem to
be especially good for this.)
>For me, the freedom to create my own worlds entirely is a big part of the
>appeal of the Hero System; this makes sourcebooks for the Champions
>Universe the last thing I want to see. I'm perfectly capable of creating my
>own campaigns, and enjoy doing so. What I'd like is some adventures that
>are ready to run for those occasions when I lack the time or energy to
>prepare them.
I'll have to see if I can sell you on my VOICE sourcebook, then (it
already has a fair amount on international crime and Chinese organized
crime in general).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:57:08 -0500
To: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Superhero fiction?
Cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 04:25 PM 6/10/98 -0400, David Stallard wrote:
>It seems to me that there isn't much superhero fiction (novels, short
>stories) available.
>
>* The Wild Cards series
>* I have a book which is a collection of short stories...it's titled
>"Superheroes" with maybe a sub-title...green and black cover....
>* I've seen (but not read) novels about various Marvel heroes...Spider-Man
>and Iron Man are all that come to mind, but there are probably others. I
>don't know if there are novels based on DC heroes or not....
I can't claim all this is *great* fiction, but here are some things you can
add to your list:
Comic-book based:
Stan Lee presents THE MARVEL SUPERHEROES (1979) This one is marked as #9 in
the Marvel
Novel Series, but it's the only one I have; one story each for Daredevil,
the Hulk, the Avengers and the X-Men.
BLACKMARK by Gil Kane (1971) a sword & sorcery comic in paperback form
CHALLENGERS OF THE UNKNOWN by Ron Goulart (1977)
SECOND SIGHT (Dana Steele, lesbian superhero) by Lindsay Welsh (1996)
THE BATMAN MURDERS by Craig Shaw Gardner (1990)
BATMAN: TO STALK A SPECTER by Simon Hawke (1991)
BATMAN: CAPTURED BY THE ENGINES by Joe R. Lansdale (1991)
THE FURTHER ADVENTURES OF BATMAN (1989)
THE FURTHER ADVENTURES OF BATMAN VOL II: THE PENGUIN
THE FURTHER ADVENTURES OF BATMAN VOL III: CATWOMAN (1993)
CATWOMAN: TIGER HUNT by Lynn Abbey & Robert Aspirin (1992)
THE FURTHER ADVENTURES OF WONDER WOMAN (1993)
THE FURTHER ADVENTURES OF SUPERMAN (1993)
SUPERMAN: LAST SON OF KRYPTON by Elliot Maggin (1978)
SUPERMAN: MIRACLE MONDAY by Elliot Maggin (1981)
AGENT 13: THE INVISIBLE EMPIRE by Flint Dille & David Marconi (1986)
AGENT 13: THE SERPENTINE ASSASSIN by <same guys> (1986)
AGENT 13: ACOLYTES OF DARKNESS (this was a graphic novel, not a paperback)
The RIFTWORLD trilogy by Stan Lee (yeah, *that* one) and Bill McKay (1993-96)
RPG-based:
The BUREAU 13 books by Nick Pollotta (actually the RPG is based on these
books)
Otherwise:
DOC SIDHE by Aaron Allston (1995)
HEROES INC. and HEROES WANTED by Kyle Crocco (1991; fantasy)
The JASON COSMO books by Dan McGirt (1989-93; fantasy)
The PSI-MAN series by Peter David (writing as David Peters; 1991-92)
There are also six VAMPIRELLA paperbacks, a paperback series on Lee Falk's
PHANTOM, and others.
Damon
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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:29:29 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: RPG "collectors"
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 06:34 PM 6/10/1998 -0400, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>At 01:32 PM 6/10/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>> If I had the level of money I wanted, I'd probably be guilty of the
>>opposite thing you do, David; I'd be grabbing books with specific rules
>>systems so I could build my own quick yet detailed systems. I certainly
>>wish I'd had more non-Hero books to consult for The Ultimate Super Vehicle
>>than I did, but fortunately I had a wealth of TV, movies, videos, and other
>>stuff to look through for ideas.
>
>Well, Bob, I'd say that by drawing from genre source material more than
>from vehicle rules in existing RPG's, you risked, um, re-inventing the
>wheel. :-)
Most probably. Like I said, I would've rather taken vehicle rules ideas
from existing books (and I did get to do some of that), but mostly I got to
watch movies and TV shows, and use fond memories from such classics as Tom
Slick and Hong Kong Phooey, to get ideas for things to cover.
>But seriously, I'm looking forward to seeing the finished USV. Any word on
>when it will be available?
Nothing solid. I'm hoping by the end of September, but I haven't seen
the return of the First Draft yet. When I get the Final Draft sent off,
I'll be sure to let y'all know. :-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:49:36 EDT
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: RPG "collectors"
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
In a message dated 6/10/98 2:39:42 PM, DBStallard@compuserve.com writes:
>I miss the days when RPG adventures were abundant. These days, sourcebooks
>are the norm and the GM is left to make his own adventures outside of a
>few brief plot synopses.
Well, it's due to the fact that smaller books (which adventures tended to be)
with lower sales (which adventures definitely tended to be) are just not
profitable any more.
*However*, with electronic distribution we can fix this! I'm hoping to get
people to write short adventures, basically one or two-nighters, for Champions
or other genres. We'd sell these through direct download from our web site,
for something like $5 (the creators -- author, artist, editor, layout --
splitting 30% royalties). If anyone's interested in providing such adventures,
please contact Bruce Harlick at brucehh@aol.com. Thanks!
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games
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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:11:28 -0500
To: champ-l@omg.org
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Superhero fiction?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Found another one: MISTER JUSTICE by Doris Piserchia (U.K. edition, 1977)
>If you start defining "superhero" a little more broadly, there are plenty
>of books. Philip Wylie's _Gladiator_ was one of the inspirations for
>Superman, and Pulp heroes like Doc Savage, Tarzan, and the Shadow weren't
>far from their superheroic successors. I haven't read E.E. Doc Smith's
>Lensmen series, but I gather it has some superheroic dimensions to it. For
>that matter, Sherlock Holmes, the Scarlet Pimpernel, and many mythic heroes
>aren't that far off either.
The Lensmen series was the inspiration for the Green Lantern Corps, so in
that at least, you are correct about the superheroic dimension of the books.
BTW, Philip Jose Farmer proposed a "Wold-Newton Family" which made an
absurd number of heroic characters related to each other, including Doc
Savage, the Shadow, Sherlock Holmes, the Scarlet Pimpernel and many others.
Damon
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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:37:30 -0500
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: RPG "collectors"
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>The big difference between my own "habit" and that of most everyone else is
>that most people said they buy other RPG material so they can get ideas for
>their Hero games. For me, it's just to discover a neat new
>setting...conversion never enters my mind. The only game I think I
>considered picking up solely for Hero ideas was Heroes Unlimited...I
>thought that maybe the power lists could give me some new ideas for Hero
>character concepts. However, I heard so much negative stuff about HU (and
>Palladium in general) that I chickened out.
Hey, don't let other people talk you out of getting something you may find
useful. Don't let me talk you *into* it, either; visit a game shop, look at
the book, and decide for yourself...you needn't admit to having bought it
if you don't want to. :)
I buy material from games I don't play as inspiration for material for
games I do play. This includes, but is not limited to, Hero, and doesn't
always involve a direct conversion. Sometimes I just think, "Hey, <this
similar game I play> should have something like this." And then I go off
and create something inspired by, but not always substantially similar to,
the option from the game I don't play.
I have huge amounts of material for the games I actually play (Hero, AD&D
and Call of Cthulhu), and odd non-game-specific supplementary bits from ICE
and RoleAids. I also have one or more books from FTL:2448, Heroes
Unlimited/Beyond the Supernatural, GURPS, Daredevils, Bureau 13, etc. I
used to have one book for Harn, and I recently sold it to someone in my
gaming group. Ironic that I now find myself in *two* campaigns set on
Harnworld, and I have no books for that system now. Sooner or later I'll
probably give in to temptation.
I am hooked on gaming magazines as well. I only have a handful of old
issues of White Dwarf, the Space Gamer and some others, and I lack one or
two early issues of Adventurer's Club and Pyramid, but I have every issue
of The Dragon back to #1 (I used to have three of the seven issues of The
Strategic Review, but I sold them becuase I couldn't find the other
four...see below) and all of The Unspeakable Oath. I even bought the first
two issues of Rifter, and plan to keep getting it. (I don't play RIFTS,
but the magazine covers the whole Palladium line, plus it has a Knights of
the Dinner Table strip.)
Your use of the word "collector" here identifies my big problem; I have a
Strong need to have complete sets of things (overcomeable with an EGO Roll,
but I don't have a very high EGO). If I start down the road of buying Harn
products, there is a danger that I might eventually start to try to collcet
them all, and many are out of print. You don't want to know how much money
I spent buying the earliest issues of The Dragon so I could have that set
complete. Given that I never play D&D, only AD&D, and that those earliest
issues predate the "A" version, it follows that there is nothing in them I
can use as is. Yet I paid much more for them than for the later issues.
Clearly, collecting is a form of insanity.
Damon
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com>
To: "Champs List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Superhero fiction?
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:15:51 -0500
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Anybody ever heard of "Super Folks"?
A somewhat tacky novel using several name changed rip-offs of well-known
characters in a fairly unique setting. Written at the PG-13 to R rating
depending.
Alan
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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 23:41:03 -0500
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net>
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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Filksinger wrote:
> I asked for suggestions for a new rule, because I thought the original rule
> made, as you just stated, no sense. I got people saying that the present
> rule was just fine. I argued against that point, and I get you arguing with
> me that the present rule "don't make sense" (my position from the
> beginning), and that I should use "common sense". I don't want "common
> sense", I want suggestions for a replacement mechanic.
Okay, here's your new replacement mechanic (although this doesn't seem
to be a 'replacement' to me. It seems to be the way it is supposed to
work)
When targeting an unseen target:
If you can identify the target hex, you have an OCV of 0. If you hit,
roll damage. If you miss... better luck next time.
If you CAN'T identify the target hex, your OCV doesn't matter because
you are firing at a location where the target isn't. Wasted ammo.
The question comes back to: can you identify the target hex? Base this
on either a perception roll, or an AK, whichever is most appropriate to
the situation. Apply modifiers based on range, reliability/accuracy of
information, etc. If the roll is successful, the player is firing at
the appropriate hex and has a (slim) chance to hit. If the roll is
missed, the player is firing at the wrong hex and will miss no matter
HOW good his attack rolls are.
Personally I wouldn't tell the player what the modifiers to his roll
were and wether or not he successfully hit the target (unless the
results would be visable).
I don't know who told you that a successful to hit roll with an OCV of 0
will always hit, even if you don't know where the target is.. but I
would stop accepting advice from this person. That rule appears no
where in MY book.
> Then, if the people I have been arguing this with on the list are my
> players, I should get new players?
Well, to be honest, *I* wouldn't game with some of the people on this
list. Some people insist on interpreting the rules in off the wall
ways, just to have something to argue about.
> There are lots of situations where a PER roll is impossible, but targeting
> can still be done. They include the standard use of mortars and other
> indirect fire weapons and shooting at targets when you can't see them but
> know from experience where they should be, such as buildings.
Then use an AK or an intelligence roll. Can the PC remember the exact
location of the target, or figure it out based on available data? If
yes, target aquired. If not, he's wasting ammo again.
> All I am asking for is suggestions for a mechanic for determining the
> difficulty of doing things like this. It should cover the fairly easy
> (Player: "'Back, invisible varlet!' I swing my sword around me, in case he
> is trying to sneak up on me." (Rolls dice.) GM: "Good roll. 'Ouch! You'll
> pay for this, knight!' You hear sounds of someone running away."), the
Okay, player has identified the hex(es) he wishes to attack. Since he
is attacking several adjacent hexes, have him use the sweep manuever.
Yes, he DOES have a slim chance of hitting, but if he can't perceive the
invisible person sneaking up on him (and the invis CAN see him swinging
the sword), he SHOULD have very little chance of hitting.
> fairly difficult ("He released this sight and sound suppression device
> because he is trying to escape, I'll bet, probably through that window the
> alarm said was broken. I know the room well, so I fire in the direction of
> that window." (Rolls dice.) GM: "The room suddenly lightens. You see the
> burglar lying on the ground under the high window. You don't seem to have
> hit him, though you did hit the window. You suspect he lost his grip when
> you frightened him by nearly blowing his head off."), to the very difficult
Player has identified the target hex - the one in front of the window.
If this is where the target actually IS, then he has a chance to hit.
If the target has headed out the door instead, the player is wasting
ammo again.
> ("My super ray can strike anywhere on Earth, once it gets precise
> coordinates. I have spent three days aiming it, calculating the exact
> distance, angle, and slope. As soon as the TV says you are driving in front
> of that store, Mr. President, you will pay! HAHAHAHAHA!").
Again, the target hex has been identified. You might want to be nice
and give some bonuses to his OCV 0 since he CAN see the president on TV
and has a little better idea of WHERE in the hex he actually is.
> I wanted a new mechanic that would cover all of these. What I've gotten so
> far is people telling me that the present rules are sufficient, and people
> telling me the present rules don't work and to use "common sense".
Okay, I've given you a mechanic. Does it make sense?
Todd
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Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 01:19:53 -0400
From: boaters <boaters@mindspring.com>
To: champs mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: RPG "collectors"
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Michael Surbrook wrote:
> Personally, I'll buy any RPG as long as it looks interesting and has
> possible uses as a Hero sourcebook. I own a mess of Shadowrun books
> becuase of this, as well as a scattering of GURPS books. A friend of my
> collect RPGs like crazy and owns a whole slew of them. Often I find that
> an RPG will have neat stuff I can use else where (such as Lace and Steel,
> a fantasty game set in the technological era of 1580 to 1620 or so). I
> play Hero exclusivly, since I feel it can be used to simulate most
> anything, but buy other games as sourcebooks.
>
I have more RPG stuff then I know what to do with. It fills an entire
bookcase, a good 1/2 of my deskspace, countless filing cabinet space and the
list just continues. I have played in so many systems that there are some that
I do not even remember the system (probably mentally blocked due to the horror
of the system), just the game. Some of the games that I have are indeed just
for reading. They are settings that in my group only I find interesting and
that the group would never play. Now I only play in the Hero system, this
includes not playing Fuzion, although I will probably pick up every book for
the source material and the great reading.
I have found that even when the source material will not work in your campaign
that you should still consider some of the ideas in the book that you are
reading. There are some interesting plot twists in some of my oldest games
that the system is not worth anything and the even the planetary backgrounds
are suffering from real depth. However, the plot twists in it (I forget the
name of the game, It was a boxed set called Dragons and something...) are so
good that I still include some of them in my current campaigns.
Hero lends itself well to using other source material from other games and not
having too much of a problem, (common sense is necessary), immediately playing
in the world of the other system using the Hero rules.
As for whether I get more out of a source book or an adventure book I would
have to say that they are about on the same level with me. From the source
books I might grab a place or item, but it is from the adventure books that I
usually find some of the most menacing plans and villians twists that keep
games exciting and fun for the players. Mix these with my own demented
creations and it is a recipe for countless hours of gaming fun and madness.
Just to add, I have absolutely no problem with non Hero specific questions on
this mailer. I actually would like to know how much a week people spend on
games, gaming, and gaming related products. On average I would say that I
spend about $30 dollars a week between books, dice, miniatures, food at the
game, gas, and other small trinkets that only a kender could love. I could add
more if anime counted, probably about another $15 a week. Is this high
compared to most???
Darin
GM: "You all realize that the room is spinning and that soon you will be
forced against the walls. If you look at the doorway that you came into the
room by everyonce in a while there is a half-second sight of the hallway. What
are you doing."
Atol: "Well my sword is unbreakable...I try and stick it in the slot when it
comes by..."
GM "Okay, but the penalties are going to be high."
Atol: "I rolled a four for my acrobatics to help get over there, and a three
to hit!!!"
<The party was happy for a second before they realized that I only stopped the
room from spinning and not them. Battlehawk's armor was the worse...it was
covered in spikes. Ouch!!!>
Luxjuria: "I guess I should have teleported everyone out"
<The players stared in disbelief learning for the first time that she could do
this.>
Luxjuria: "Oops."
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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 23:31:06 -0600
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Superhero fiction?
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Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
>
> At 04:25 PM 6/10/98 -0400, David Stallard wrote:
> >It seems to me that there isn't much superhero fiction (novels, short
> >stories) available.
Snipped a wonderfull list of superhero books....
I have only one to add, and it is not 'Superhero' per se (no Long
Johns), but it shares all of the classic superhero bits... Radiation
accident (literaly), secret ID, stopping a huge menace ect...
ManFac by Martin Caidin.
--
Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards,
for they are subtle and quick to anger. -J R R Tolkien
No matter how subtle the Wizard,
a knife between the shoulderblades will seriously cramp his style. -S
R Brust
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Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: "Hero System Listserv (E-mail)" <hero-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Power Question
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:13:34 +1000
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> I'm thinking about making a character who becomes more effective in
social
> situations (i.e.. Conversation, Persuasion, Oratory) the more people
there
> are around him. So, he's far more effective when dealing with 100 people
> than he is with 1 person.
>
> Can I get some suggestions on how to do this?
>
>
If your looking for a wacky approach (as opposed to some sort of lmitation
cascade)
how about an AE PRE trasfer to the character? That way they become more
impressive, and eveyone else becoes less. . .
> Lisa Hartjes
> Bookkeeping Specialist
> hartjes@tcbs.net
> http://www.tcbs.net
>
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Reply-To: <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 01:06:12 -0700
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From: Joe Mucchiello [mailto:why@superlink.net]
>
> At 03:42 PM 6/8/98 -0700, Filksinger wrote:
<snip>
> >Player: "I, SuperRange Man, have decided to attack Mr. Bad with my
> SuperRange Beam. I have
> >the ability to hit any place on the planet, regardless of barriers in my
> way, with NRP."
> >
> >GM: "You are kidding. You don't even know where he is. Only I know that."
> (Note: SRM is in
> >Little America, Antarctica, and Mr. B is in Maui.)
> >
> >Player: "I attempt to find him by listening carefully. (Shakes dice) I get
> a 5 on my PER
> >roll."
> >
> >GM: "Your PER roll fails."
> >
> >Player: "Cool. That gives me a 0 OCV with NRP. I'll keep shooting until I
> hit him, since I
> >have 0 END."
> >
> >GM: "O.K. Mr. Bad has a DCV of 7. You hit him on a 4 or less."
>
> Player: "Okay, I can make 10 attacks before I run out of END so I'll just
> roll the dice 10 times." rolls "Hey, I hit once."
>
> GM: "Okay. Each of the missiles flies off in different directions. You
> don't know if you hit him. Now what do you do?" Notes damage on target.
> Decides Bad knows who did it and will send someone after him.
>
> Player: "Um."
Its still to powerful an effect. Keep in mind that it could be used by a villain, it could
be set to just keep slapping you down until you can't take it, and whether or not you are
in costume or not has nothing to do with whether or not a PER roll against you fails.
"John, why does lightning from the sky keep trying to hit you?"
"I don't know."
"OK, then why are you still standing?"
<snip>
>
> Okay, forget about NRP. Ten people are in a pitch black warehouse with
> guns. One of them just starts shooting a random. He is 0 OCV against
> everyone else. He has a small chance to hit them. If they are normals
> then he is 8- to hit someone within 4", 6- within 8", 4- within 16", etc,
> not counting cover (crates and whatnot). No matter what he rolls, if
> something is between him and the target he will miss (SFX). But if the
> dice indicate a hit, he hits. Do you disagree with this?
>
> If so, why?
I agree.
> If not, then NRP works exactly the same way just over a larger range of
> possible hits. He's 8- against a 3 DCV target within range of his power.
It still, carried to an extreme that is not excessive for a superhero campaign, especially
in the hands of a powerful mega-villain, gives silly results.
> I think your problem with this is NRP. NRP makes no sense. "The farther
> away something is the more likely you are to hit" is just common sense.
Uh, maybe I'm missing something here. Was this a typo?
> But, if you find a special effect where NRP makes sense, this is how it
> should work.
I disagree.
Once upon a time, there was a rule that, in order to hit a target you couldn't see, you
not only needed to hit with a 0 OCV, but you had to declare the correct hex to shoot. If
the target wasn't there, you missed, period. This is more like what I am looking for,
except I'm not certain how to implement it in situations where picking a hex on a map
doesn't work, such as asking a player to select a hex to shoot 9,000 miles away.
Filksinger
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Reply-To: <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 01:08:00 -0700
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From: Bob Greenwade
>
>
> At 03:40 PM 6/9/1998 -0700, mcallahan wrote:
> >>Player: "Cool. That gives me a 0 OCV with NRP. I'll keep shooting
> >>until I hit him, since I
> >>have 0 END."
> >>
> >>GM: "O.K. Mr. Badhas a DCV of 7. You hit him on a 4 or less."
> >
> >Of course this should be considered to be suprised out of combat, so
> >Mr. Bad is at 1/2 dcv, and takes x2 stun when he gets hit (now a 7 or
> >less) :-)
>
> On the other hand, there are always those targets that the PC hit while
> shooting blindly at Mr. Badhas. ("Excuse me, sir, we're with the Secret
> Service....")
Uh, that's Mr. Bad. The next word was 'has', and I made a typo. Lets not look to closely
at this one, and move on.:)
As far as the Secret Service goes, the villain could be the one with the power.
Additionally, the power could be untraceable, or even tailored to the target.
Another point. The hero won't miss by much, because the scattering rules don't allow it.
If the hero can trace his own power, then he could actually use it to track people.
"Hey, my attacks are all landing in the north end of Maui! That must be Mr. Bad's
hideout!"
OTOH, if you eliminate the scattering rules from NRP, then you get a slightly different
effect, depending upon that with which you replace them. Completely random scattering
gives you this effect.
"There is the villain, on that hill a quarter of a mile away. Hey, SuperRange Man, can you
hit him?"
"Sure. Oops, I missed."
"Uh, SuperRange Man, why did you shoot the town hall, half a mile to the right?"
Filksinger
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Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:52:04 +0100
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Superhero 101
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> Curt Hicks wrote:
>
> > Suppose you are a long established, successful superhero.
> > For whatever reason, you're taking on an apprentice.
> > What skills and training do you start for your apprentice ?
> > What are the basic and less basic things that superheroes need
> > to know or be able to do ?
> >
> > Curt
>
Martial Dodge
_==/ i i \==_
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|XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|
XXXXXXXXX http://www.lynch1.demon.co.uk XXXXXXXXX
|XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|
XXXXXX/^^^^"\XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX/^^^^^\XXXXXX
|XXX| \XXX/^^\XXXXX/^^\XXX/ |XXX|
\XX\ \X/ \XXX/ \X/ /XX/
"\ " \X/ " /"
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Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 07:55:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: CHAR: Dr. Manhattan
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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"Human affairs cannot be my concern.
I'm leaving this galaxy for one less complicated."
DR. MANHATTAN
(Jon Osterman)
Val CHA Cost Roll Notes
75 STR 65 24- 800 tons; 15d6
35 DEX 75 16- OCV: 12 / DCV: 12
40 CON 60 17-
20 BODY 20 13-
50 INT 40 19- PER Roll 19-
23 EGO 26 14- ECV: 8
30 PRE 20 15- PRE Attack: 6d6
14 COM 2 12-
35 PD 20 Total: 35 PD / 35 PDr
35 ED 27 Total: 35 ED / 35 EDr
8 SPD 35 Phases: 2, 3, 5, 6, 8, 9, 11, 12
23 REC 0
80 END 0
80 STUN 3
Total Characteristics Cost: 393
Movement: Running: 6" / 12"
Other movement powers are variable, see below
Cost Powers & Skills
500 Atomic Structure Manipulation: Variable Power Pool (200 pt pool),
No Skill Roll (+1), Can Change Powers as 0 Phase Action (+1)
35 Invulnerability: Damage Resistance: 35 PD/ED
30 Adaptive Physiology: Life Support: Full
67 Temporal Consciousness: Clairsentience: Sight, Hearing,
Precognitive, 0 END (+1/2)
Enhanced Senses:
15 Microscopic Vision: x100,000
15 Telescopic Vison: +10 vs Range Mod
Enhanced Mind:
3 Talent: Absolute Time Sense
3 Talent: Bump of Direction
10 Talent: Eidetic Memory
3 Talent: Lightning Calculator
Physicist Skills:
3 Contact: U.S. Government 11-
3 Inventing 19-
3 PS: Scientist 19-
3 Scientist
2 SC: Bio-physics 19-
2 SC: Electrical Engineering 19-
2 SC: Mathmatics 19-
2 SC: Nuclear Physics 19-
2 SC: Physics 19-
2 SC: Subatomic Physics 19-
705 Total Powers & Skills Cost
1098 Total Character Cost
150+ Disadvantages
15 DNPC: Laurel Jane Juspeczyk (aka Silk Spectre II) 14-
20 Distinctive Features: Nude blue human
15 Physical Limitation: All actions are predetermined
Psychological Limitation:
20 Curious about physical world
25 Highly logical in actions and reactions
10 Public ID: Dr. Manhattan
15 Reputation: Dr. Manhattan (indestructable, all powerful) 14-
10 Watched: US Govt (LessPow, NCI) 14-
818 Big Blue Bonus
1098 Total Disadvantage Points
Designer's Notes:
To be serious, Dr. Manhattan is one of the few characters where one should
just ignore such concepts as powers and point numbers and state 'he does
it' when ever needed. But, DC Heroes made a character sheet for him so I
did my best to turn that write up into a Hero System character sheet. The
results are seen here.
Born in 1929, Jon Osterman originally wanted to be a watchmaker. After
his father read of the bombing of Hiroshima Jon went into Princeton and
graduated in 1958 with a PhD in atomic physics. He was sent to Gila Flats
in 1959, meeting (and falling in love with) Janey Slater. In August of
1959, he was he disintegrated in an accident involving an 'intrinsic field
separator'. Several months later he reassembled himself, becoming the
first (and only) superpowered individual on the planet.
Dubbed Dr. Manhattan by the US Government, Jon became the US defense
against nuclear war since he could stop most incoming missiles with a
thought). He was revealed to the public in 1960, and was present at the
Crimebusters meeting of 1966 where he met and fell in love with Laurie
Juspeczyk (Silk Spectre II). In 1971 he was sent to Vietnam and ended the
war two months later. In 1985, he left the Earth for Mars, returning
after Ozymandias' 'alien attack' to confront Ozymandias in Antarctica. He
then left Earth altogether.
Description:
Dr. Manhattan is tall, standing well over six feet in height, broad
shouldered and very well muscled. His skin is blue (although he can
change the exact hue at will), and his eyes are pure white with no pupils.
The Doctor has no body hair.
Manhattan no longer bothers with clothing, although he will dress in a
suit if needed. He used to wear a black body stocking that slowly got
smaller as time went by until it was little more than a g-string. On his
forehead is a depction of a hydrogen atom.
Powers Notes:
Dr. Manhattan can do almost *anything*. He can change his height and
density, project bolts of energy, disassemble objects with a glance,
transform the elements, teleport, live in an almost pure vaccum, resist
disintegration, see the future, make multiple copies of himself...
Manhattan speaks of walking on the sun and creating his own lifeforms;
Silk Spectre II states that he can 'see neutrinos'.
Basically, Dr. Manhattan can manipulate matter at the atomic and
sub-atomic level. His powers are unlimited, and even 200 points of cosmic
power pool may not be enough to simulate all of his abilites. Within the
pages of "Watchmen" he uses the following Champions powers: Energy Blast,
Desolidification, Duplication, Growth, Life Support (UBO), Ranged Killing
Attack, Telekinesis, Teleport and Transformation Attack. Two of his more
extreme demonstrations of power include teleporting from the Earth to Mars
and teleporting an entire angry mob (he did that one twice).
Disadvantages Notes:
Due to his powers, Dr. Manhattan is slowly losing touch with humanity. As
time progresses his 'costume' gets smaller and smaller, till he abandons
clothing altogether (unless needed for some public appearance). He can
see the future, and in fact, seems to live at *all* times simultaneously,
but his actions are 'predetermined'. He knows that Kennedy is going to
die in Dallas, but cannot prevent it. He knows it is going to happen, but
is still surprised when it *does* happen. He precog abilities come in
useful a few times, and at least twice in the pages of "Watchmen" he
informs another character that will perform a set action (or actions)
before they actually do so. Basically, Dr. Manhattan's "All actions are
predetermined" Phys Lim makes him the ultimate GMPC, allowing the GM to
add or remove him as needed without having Dr. Manhattan overshadow anyone
else.
Dr. Manhattan's two psych lims are pretty easy to understand. He is
highly curious with the physical world and scientific discovery. He'd
rather stay in his lab, looking for new sub-atomic particles than worry
about any sort of 'super-villain' threat. Dr. Manhattan is also highly
logical, and doesn't tend to get emotional. He's even more logical and
restrained than Mr. Spock, and tends to react in a reserved and efficient
matter to situations around him. He doesn't go in for fancy displays of
power, but instead uses direct simple methods to solve a problem (for
example, teleporting all the members of an unruly mob back to their homes)
.
(Dr. Manhattan created by Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons, character sheet
created by Michael Surbrook)
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 10:45:02 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Dr. Manhattan
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> DR. MANHATTAN
> (Jon Osterman)
>
> Val CHA Cost Roll Notes
> 75 STR 65 24- 800 tons; 15d6
I don't know that he ever displays great physical strength, except when
he's grown to immense size. (But then, why would he need to?)
> 35 DEX 75 16- OCV: 12 / DCV: 12
> 40 CON 60 17-
> 20 BODY 20 13-
Seem kind of high, too. Me, I'd be inclined to make his physical stats
more normal, but bump his VPP up another hundred or two points.
If you wanted to be really ambitious, you could try to come up with a
mechanic to represent the fact that his physical body is apparently
largely irrelevant. (He had it completely annihilated twice, but rebuilt
it.)
> 50 INT 40 19- PER Roll 19-
Did the accident actually increase his intelligence?
> 23 EGO 26 14- ECV: 8
> 30 PRE 20 15- PRE Attack: 6d6
This may actually be too low.
> 67 Temporal Consciousness: Clairsentience: Sight, Hearing,
> Precognitive, 0 END (+1/2)
Postcognitive, too, but since it apparently only lets him see what he
personally experienced (or will experience), Eidetic Memory probably
covers that aspect. OTOH, I'd add Persistent and Always On.
Actually, given that he can still be surprised (he just knows he's going
to be surprised:)), I'd be tempted to just brush off his precognition as
a special effect... but he does use it to useful effect on occasion, so
I suppose it needs to be written up.
> 150+ Disadvantages
> 15 DNPC: Laurel Jane Juspeczyk (aka Silk Spectre II) 14-
> 20 Distinctive Features: Nude blue human
> 15 Physical Limitation: All actions are predetermined
I'd write this up as a Psychological Limitation. After all, the only
difference between Manhattan and everybody else is that he _knows_ his
actions are predetermined.
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Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 10:46:05 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Todd Hanson wrote:
> When targeting an unseen target:
>
> If you can identify the target hex, you have an OCV of 0. If you hit,
> roll damage. If you miss... better luck next time.
>
> If you CAN'T identify the target hex, your OCV doesn't matter because
> you are firing at a location where the target isn't. Wasted ammo.
Normally, one can hit a target in a different hex if you miss an attack.
So how come if I aim at the wrong hex, I automatically hit the hex I'm
aiming at?
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Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 10:47:23 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: CHAR: The Comedian
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> The Comedian is a hero people either like or hate. There are many who
> look at him with suspicion, and with good reason. He killed Hooded
> Justice after Justice violently stopped his assault on Sally Jupiter. He
> was in Dallas when Kennedy was shot and no one knows why. He killed
> Woodward and Bernstein (the men who broke the Watergate scandal).
Except, of course, in the Watchmen world they didn't.
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Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 10:50:13 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Cpt Metropolis
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Mon, 8 Jun 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> 15 Secret ID: Nelson Gardner; Homosexual
Being homosexual should be good for a Distinctive Features, above and
beyond the standard Secret ID that most all of the Minuteman have.
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Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 10:52:34 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Sat, 6 Jun 1998, Mad Hamish wrote:
> >> He is usually called hundreds of feet tall.
> >
> >Comparable to the heavyweights among dragons, then, but not comparable
> >to the very biggest of them. Jormungand could probably swallow him in one
> >gulp.
>
> Varies from genre to genre. Nor would I classify Jormungand as a dragon,
> the offspring of Loki and a giantess isn't a standard dragon, rather a
> deity level critter. If you want to argue that he's a dragon is Thor a human?
As you say, it varies by genre. Often, _all_ dragons are going to be deity
level critters. Even if not, I kind of object to the idea of a "standard
dragon".
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Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 07:31:23 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: CHAMPS-L@sysabend.org, falkirk@airmail.net
Subject: Re: Secret Identities
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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X-Keywords:
X-UID: 7
Guy Hoyle wrote:
>
> Most superheroes have secret identities for one of a few reasons:
>
> 1) They allow the superhero to have some semblance of a "normal" life (ex., Superman, Peter Parker)
> 2) They give them resources that allow them to carry out their "true" work (ex., Batman)
> 3) The costumed persona IS the secret ID (they had a life before they had powers) (ex. Captain Marvel)
>
> Has anybody come up with any different twists on the secret ID?
4) Heroes who are wanted by the police in their heroic ID, because they:
- Pretend to be criminals (Green Hornet) to undermine the underworld.
- Routinely commit crimes and/or torts in the name of justice (Rorshach)
- Are non-sanctioned heroes, unregistered mutants, etc. (many campaigns)
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
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From: "David W. Salmon" <dwsalmon@earthlink.net>
To: "Champions News Group" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: New topic: Teleportation & Usable Against Others
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 07:50:52 -0700
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Okay ... uncle ... I've had enough of the Clinging/Climbing/Shooting with No
Range Modifiers debates so I decided to submit my own question. Any help is
greatly appreciated.
I have created a character with Tport powers and my question is this: If I
were to buy Tport w/ Usable Against Others and I wanted to Tport up to
400kgs how would you buy it? Assume the base 10" of Tport w/ no other
advantages/disadvantages.
Simple question right? Well, the power Tport says that for each 2x human
mass you would like to Tport there is an additional cost of +5 points to the
base cost of the power. On the other hand, the advantage Usable Against
Others states that for each additional 2x human mass it is and additional
+1/4 advantage. Which do I use and why?
Oh yeah, let's also assume that I am Tporting a crate of handcuffs, not
people. This is because the mass increase under the advantage only applies
to inanimate objects.
Thanks in advance for your help
...Dave
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Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:17:35 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Adventures vs Sourcebooks
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by Hero Games
>Well, it's due to the fact that smaller books (which adventures tended to
be)
with lower sales (which adventures definitely tended to be) are just not
profitable any more.<
Oh, wasn't aware of that. But what about books like Champions Presents or
Challenges for Champions? Is that a valid means of publishing straight
adventures, or would "adventure compilations" still have lower sales than a
sourcebook?
I noticed that the Deadlands game has a bunch of little "booklet"
adventures (I think they sell for $5 or $6 each). Since DL is a relatively
new game, could the pendulum be starting to swing the other way?
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: "Champions News Group" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: New topic: Teleportation & Usable Against Others
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 08:45:01 -0700
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From: David W. Salmon <dwsalmon@earthlink.net>
>
> Okay ... uncle ... I've had enough of the Clinging/Climbing/Shooting with
No
> Range Modifiers debates so I decided to submit my own question. Any help
is
> greatly appreciated.
>
> I have created a character with Tport powers and my question is this: If
I
> were to buy Tport w/ Usable Against Others and I wanted to Tport up to
> 400kgs how would you buy it? Assume the base 10" of Tport w/ no other
> advantages/disadvantages.
>
> Simple question right? Well, the power Tport says that for each 2x human
> mass you would like to Tport there is an additional cost of +5 points to
the
> base cost of the power. On the other hand, the advantage Usable Against
> Others states that for each additional 2x human mass it is and additional
> +1/4 advantage. Which do I use and why?
>
> Oh yeah, let's also assume that I am Tporting a crate of handcuffs, not
> people. This is because the mass increase under the advantage only
applies
> to inanimate objects.
If a power has a built-in mechanic for a particular effect, such as
Teleport has for extra mass, that mechanic will take precedence over
Advantages, and especially over add-ons for an Advantage. The method under
Teleportation applies. (IMNSHO)
Filksinger
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Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:47:53 EDT
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Adventures vs Sourcebooks
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
In a message dated 6/11/98 8:38:27 AM, DBStallard@compuserve.com writes:
>Oh, wasn't aware of that. But what about books like Champions Presents
>or Challenges for Champions? Is that a valid means of publishing straight
>adventures, or would "adventure compilations" still have lower sales than
>a sourcebook?
>
They still sell less than any other type of book. And many people aren't
looking to spend a higher amount to get a lot of adventures; they'd like one
or two good adventures at a low price.
>
>I noticed that the Deadlands game has a bunch of little "booklet"
>adventures (I think they sell for $5 or $6 each). Since DL is a relatively
>new game, could the pendulum be starting to swing the other way?
Those were an experiment on their part, combining fiction with adventures. I
don't know if they're doing more of them, but I don't think they did all that
well from what they told me.
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games
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Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 10:15:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Superhero fiction?
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
---David Stallard wrote:
>
>I don't know if there are novels based on DC heroes or not....
A quick list off the top of my head.
* Knightfall (novelization of a run of Batman comics), by Denny O'Neil
* The Death and Life of Superman (novelization of a run of Superman
comics)
* Miracle Monday (Superman), by Elliott S Maggin
* Kingdom Come (novelization of the comic miniseries)), by Elliott S
Maggin
* Lois & Clark : A Superman Novel, by C. J. Cherryh
* Wonder Woman : Gods and Goddesses, by John Byrne
* Batman : The Ultimate Evil, by Andrew Vachss
Plus
* There is a series of Lois & Clark the New Adventures of Superman
novels by Michael Friedman)
* Several collection of Batman short stories (edited by Matrin
Greenberg)
* Novelization of the recent Batmna movies
* Novelization of the Superman movies
I'm sure there are others, but this was all I could think of.
==
==============================================
John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org>
==============================================
# Keeper of the Hero Mailing List. Got a question about #
# the list? Scope out www.sysabend.org/champions #
# New feature: Cardboard Heroes. #
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Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:16:09 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Adventures vs Sourcebooks
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by Steve Peterson
>They still sell less than any other type of book. And many people aren't
looking to spend a higher amount to get a lot of adventures; they'd like
one
or two good adventures at a low price.<
Interesting.... I guess I just have a different outlook than a lot of
gamers....I really like the Champions Presents/Challenges for
Champions/Heroic Adventures/Pyramid in the Sky style books, as well as the
one-shot adventures like Demons Rule or Day of the Destroyer. I like the
sourcebooks too, though, so I don't necessarily want sourcebooks take a
back seat to adventures.
I can remember way back in the early '80s when it was so exciting to bring
home a new D&D module and read about level after level of a new dungeon.
Maybe my affinity for pre-written adventures is just a nostalgia thing. It
looks like TSR will be getting back to this sort of thing with the reborn
Greyhawk world (it seems as if they are saying "to heck with role-playing,
let's hack-n-slash!", which might not be a bad move).
>Those were an experiment on their part, combining fiction with adventures.
I
don't know if they're doing more of them, but I don't think they did all
that
well from what they told me.<
Oh, I guess I just assumed they (those little Deadlands booklets) were
doing well since my local game store has a bunch of them in stock. I
haven't actually looked through one, though. I wonder if it's the fiction
part that isn't popular.... It certainly seems like a bargain to buy
adventures for only $5. It sounds a lot like what Hero is trying to put
together for web sales, 'cept Pinnacle's are printed.
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Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 10:36:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: CHAR: Dr. Manhattan
To: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net&>
Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
---Michael Surbrook wrote:
>
> 15 DNPC: Laurel Jane Juspeczyk (aka Silk Spectre II) 14-
Would she really quailify as an DNPC considering how much of the
storyline she's involved in independant of Dr. M?
-=>John D.
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Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:18:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Dr. Manhattan
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, John Desmarais wrote:
> ---Michael Surbrook wrote:
> >
> > 15 DNPC: Laurel Jane Juspeczyk (aka Silk Spectre II) 14-
>
> Would she really quailify as an DNPC considering how much of the
> storyline she's involved in independant of Dr. M?
Well, considering that these write-ups are from 'generic versions' of the
character, yes. She is Dr. M's significant 'other' for something like 15
years (from 1970 to 1985) and during that time she could be considered a
DNPC. I think she's listed as a DNPC in the DC Heroes book as well.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:25:27 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Independent Limitation
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Lizard wrote:
>
> Focus only:Character risks losing the object during an adventure, or
> character must take special precautions to protect object during
> anadventure, or object is otherwise limiting to the character.
So far, so good.
>
> Focus+Indepenant:At some point, the Character WILL lose the object, for
If, by this, you mean that the GM will set the player up to lose those
points, no matter what, then I must disagree. If a player can, by
consistent good play, hold onto an Independent Focus indefinitely, then
it is still worth the Limitation, provided that the character is always
guarding the focus, choosing tactics so as to minimize its likelihood of
loss, etc. The Independent Limitation in such cases represents the
greater consequence of losing the focus.
> good, and his points along with it. The 'bonus' for an Independant object
> is very good, and the limits it imposes during day-to-day gameplay are
> trivial -- unless there's a very real risk of loss.
I must agree with Bob Greenwade here: the difference is not that an
Independent Focus cannot be recovered if lost, it is that the GM is under
no obligation to ensure its return. This is in contrast to an
Unbreakable Focus, where the GM is obliged to set up a scenario that
permits the Focus's return.
As for the huge amount of the bonus, remember that almost all Independent
powers already have the Focus Limitation, and frequently have the Charges
Limitation, which makes Independent not worth quite so much as one might
think.
>
> Another important distinction is that an Independant Focus is complete unto
> itself. This is the distinction between a "wand of fire" and a "fireball
> spell" which requires a wand to cast.
I think that you are confusing Universal and Independent: they are
disjoint concepts. Although most Independent Foci will be Universal,
there are perfectly valid Personal Independent Foci: an amulet that is
useless to anyone but the maker, but that represents an irreversable
commitment of power.
Also, there is no requirement that a power bought through a Universal
Focus be bought to 0 END, and no prohibition on requiring a Skill Roll to
use it. This is true whether or not the focus is Independent.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
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Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:47:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: CHAR: Moloch
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
MOLOCH
(Edgar William Jacobi)
(aka Edgar William Vaugn, William Edgar Bright)
Val CHA Cost Roll Notes
10 STR 0 11- 100kg; 2d6
15 DEX 15 12- OCV: 5 / DCV: 5
11 CON 2 11-
10 BODY 0 11-
14 INT 4 12- PER Roll 12-
14 EGO 8 12- ECV: 5
15 PRE 5 12- PRE Attack: 3d6
12 COM 1 11-
5 PD 3 Total: 5 PD
4 ED 2 Total: 4 ED
3 SPD 5 Phases: 4, 8, 12
4 REC 0
22 END 0
21 STUN 0
Total Characteristics Cost: 45
Movement: Running: 6" / 12"
Swimming: 2" / 4"
Cost Powers & Skills
Combat Training:
5 HTH Skill: +1 with HTH
Background Skills:
50 'Mastermind' option (allows Molch to use 250 pts for bases,
followers and vehicles)
10 Money: Wealthy
3 Conversation 12-
3 Deduction 12-
3 High Society 12-
3 Persuasion 12-
2 PS: Crime Lord of New York 11-
2 PS: Stage Magican 11-
3 SL: +1 with PRE Skills
5 Sleight of Hand 13-
3 Streetwise 12-
1 TF: Car
1 WF: Pistol
3 Scholar
1 KS: Law 11-
3 KS: New York Underworld 13-
3 KS: Occult 13-
3 KS: Philosophy 13-
3 KS: Religion 13-
3 Well Connected
113 Total Powers & Skills Cost
158 Total Character Cost
75+ Disadvantages
10 Distinctive Features: Constant demonic motifs, tapered ears
15 Hunted: Assorted Heroes (AsPow) 11-
Psychological Limitation:
10 Likes to match wits vs Super Heroes
15 Power Lust
0 (15) Ruthless
10 Reputation: Moloch, king of vice and crime, 11-
23 Experience
158 Total Disadvantage Points
Description:
Moloch got his start in the 40's as a stage magician. He quickly turned
to crime and rose to become vice king of the New York Underworld. He
fought with a number of superheroes, including Dr. Manhattan and
Ozymandias. Moloch spent most of the 70's in prison and by the mid-80's
is old, tired and desiring only to be left alone.
Moloch looks to stand about 5'8" or so, as he he is not much taller than
Rorschach (who wears lifts in his shoes). He was a thin build and a
handsome face. His fair is black. When operating as Moloch, he wears
black suits with a cape, reminiscent of evening wear or a classical stage
magican's costume. Moloch has pointed ears, and with his hair and beard
bears a great resemblance to Spock from the "Star Trek" episode "Mirror
Mirror"
(Moloch created by Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons, character sheet created by
Michael Surbrook)
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
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Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:49:09 EDT
To: DBStallard@compuserve.com
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Adventures vs Sourcebooks
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
In a message dated 6/11/98 10:28:01 AM, DBStallard@compuserve.com writes:
>Oh, I guess I just assumed they (those little Deadlands booklets) were
>doing well since my local game store has a bunch of them in stock.
Actually, the fact that they have a bunch of them in stock is a sign that
they're *not* doing well, at least at that store.
I'm not sure how many actual players Deadlands has, as opposed to people
buying the books as collectors or to use with other games.
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games
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From: SteveL1979@aol.com
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Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:51:44 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Adventures vs Sourcebooks
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
In a message dated 98-06-11 16:01:42 EDT, HeroGames@aol.com writes:
<< I'm not sure how many actual players Deadlands has, as opposed to people
buying the books as collectors or to use with other games.>>
I'm not sure either, but I do know that their listserv is as active, or more
active, than this one. At the very least they have a small group of VERY
enthusiastic fans. :)
Steve Long
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Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:56:17 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: Champions News Group <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: New topic: Teleportation & Usable Against Others
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Filksinger wrote:
>
> From: David W. Salmon <dwsalmon@earthlink.net>
> >
> > were to buy Tport w/ Usable Against Others and I wanted to Tport up to
> > 400kgs how would you buy it? Assume the base 10" of Tport w/ no other
> > advantages/disadvantages.
>
> If a power has a built-in mechanic for a particular effect, such as
> Teleport has for extra mass, that mechanic will take precedence over
> Advantages, and especially over add-ons for an Advantage. The method under
> Teleportation applies. (IMNSHO)
>
> Filksinger
Sorry to puncture your humility, but the description of Usable Against
Others is pretty explicit that it applies to Teleport, since that is
given as an example on HSR p.98:
Usable Against Others
...
(It's very expensive to get enough Teleport Usable Against
Others to Teleport the Earth).
...
This passage would be very strange indeed if the UAO mass limits did not
apply. Also, I would assume that if one were to teleport the Earth (or a
bus, for that matter), then all the animate creatures that ride on it
would both be included in the mass and teleported. The alternative is
silly.
IMNSHO, the +5 pts for x2 mass inherent in Teleport *also* applies, as
would any size-related increase to any other power. You cannot do
anything with a power UAO that you could not do, yourself, with the power
without the UAO. You are making the mistake of generalizing from a
specific stricture on Increased Maximum Range, "It can only be bought for
Powers that don't already have a way to increase their maximum range."
This language does not appear on any other Advantage, and is not part of
the UAO description, so I would judge that it does not apply.
Let's face it, Teleport UAO is an obnoxious power. It *should* be
expensive.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
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To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: New topic: Teleportation & Usable Against Others
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David W Salmon writes:
> I have created a character with Tport powers and my question is this: If
> I were to buy Tport w/ Usable Against Others and I wanted to Tport up to
> 400kgs how would you buy it? Assume the base 10" of Tport w/ no other
> advantages/disadvantages.
What is the reasonably common defense against this power?
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Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:17:46 -0500
To: "Champs List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Superhero fiction?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 10:15 PM 6/10/98 -0500, Remnant wrote:
>Anybody ever heard of "Super Folks"?
>
>A somewhat tacky novel using several name changed rip-offs of well-known
>characters in a fairly unique setting. Written at the PG-13 to R rating
>depending.
Yeah, I was bound to miss a few...
SUPER-FOLKS by Robert Mayer (1977) gives us a world with no more heroes.
Batman & Robin are dead. Superman is missing, presumed dead. Wonder Woman
has forsworn the use of her powers and is basically just fronting for the
women's lib movement. The whole Marvel Family is dead (struck by
lightning), etc. Even Snoopy had been shot down by the Red Baron over
France...
"In this fading pantheon of heroes, the very last to give up combat
against the forces of tyranny and evil had been the most powerful
hero of all. And he had not been seen in almost a decade. Not since,
unknown to the world, his superpowers had unaccountably begun to fail.
Using his secret identity, David Brinkley, he had slipped into the
humdrum routine of middle-class life. He was forty-two years old.
He was married, with two children; and a third was due any day. He
expected never again to dash in to a phone booth, strip down to his
uniform, don his purple mask, and leap into battle against the forces
of darkness.
He had outgrown such childish notions. They lived on only in his dreams.
So he thought."
The protagonist is an alien, from the planet Cronk. As such, he has a
Susceptibility to Cronkite. At the end of the book, he's surprised to find
his secret identity was never a very big secret.
"You knew from the beginning?"
"Of course."
"But how?"
"A dozen ways. Who else has blue hair?"
and...
"You must think we're pretty stupid. For twenty years you've been going
out on assignments, and disappearing -- leaving Peggy to cover for you.
Why do you think you weren't fired years ago? Of course we knew."
Damon
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|****************** Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs *******************|
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Damon & Peni's homepages: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3401/ |
| Children's Books -- Dolls -- X-Files -- Pulp Magazines |
| Worthy Causes -- Computer -- Atlanta -- All Human Knowledge |
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
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Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:54:35 -0400
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 12:35 PM 6/10/98 -0700, Filksinger wrote:
> From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
>> Yes, it's a powerful effect, but that is how the Game Mechanic works.
>
>Yes, at this time the Game Mechanic says that any ranged power will hit any
>target in range with only normal range modifiers and a 0 OCV when you
>cannot detect the target at all. While this is excessively ridiculous in
>the case of extreme range NRP, it is silly with normal powers, as well. If
>I don't have _any_ idea where the target is, I shouldn't be able to hit
>except by great coincidence, but under the present rules I can hit with a 0
>OCV. That's too easy.
This is my last comment on this thread, it's a little silly now. All that
I am arguing is if you fire randomly in the dark, you might hit something.
The character with the NRP power might do the same thing. 0 OCV is not too
easy. 0 OCV in a superhero game is not going to hit your average 7 DCV
target (1 in 50). But I see no reason not to give a Hero a chance.
>> > > I think your problem with this is NRP. NRP makes no sense. "The
>farther
>> > > away something is the more likely you are to hit" is just common
>sense.
>> > Uh, maybe I'm missing something here. Was this a typo?
>> What?
>You said that things that are farther away are easier to hit, and that this
>was common sense. I always thought that things that were farther away were
>harder to hit, myself.
Ooops.
>>I'm saying NRP, in general, does not make sense. See below.
>
>Arguable, but I might agree.
Yea. Now how is that fixed?
>> > > But, if you find a special effect where NRP makes sense, this is how
>it
>> > > should work.
>> >
>> > I disagree.
>>
>> What is the difference? NRP just changes the numbers.
>
>I agreed that that was how it worked. I disagreed that that was how it
>_should_ work. I think that being completely unable to even guess where the
>target is should be a greater penalty than 0 OCV, at least at range.
I'm arguing it should work but since that's the way it's written, that's
what you are stuck with, officially.
>> Tell me why NRP is there. What special effect would be just as accurate
>> at 2 meters as 20 km? Any kind of effect where my OCV is equally
>> effective at 2 meters and 20 km is unimaginable.
>
>Unimaginable to whom? I could imagine a few possibilities. You would
>probably refuse to allow them as NRP, however, creating a whole new (and
>probably pointless) discussion.
Um. To me. I cannot imagine a power which has the same to hit at 2 meters
as 20 km which you wouldn't be better off modelling some other way. Yes,
probably pointless to discuss.
>You are suggesting that NRP should never be more than a massive reduction
>in range modifiers, if I understand you, or levels to counteract RMods. I
>could agree with this. That does eliminate the problem of NRP while blind,
>as the bonus granted by those levels will be negated when blind, leaving
>you with normal range modifiers.
That might be a valid interpretation. Until you articulated it, I wasn't
aware that that was what I was suggesting. But now I'll say I was. :-)
>>But if you come up with
>> such a special effect, then whether my OCV is 3, 10 or 0, the power will
>> still hit if I make the correct roll.
>
>Why? The present game mechanic says so, I admit, but I have a lot more
>trouble imagining a power that can hit with 0 OCV at maximum range _when
>you don't even know where the target is_ than I do powers with NRP.
Ahh. But they are the same thing "A power that can hit with 0 OCV at
maximum range..." is "a power with NRP". That's the rules. As I've said
before, what is the difference? That may be why I've never really used NRP.
>>The character is in the room he knows the
>> general direction to fire in
>
>Why? The initial example was people who have failed their PER rolls. Under
>the present rules, you don't even have to suspect the enemy's _direction_
>to hit him using a 0 OCV.
That was one PER Roll. If the combat is ongoing, he still has an idea of
where the guy is that the player cannot articulate. It's an inside/outside
the box problem that comes up in RPGs.
>> and when he fires he might angle the gun just
>> enough to miss the hex the player indicates and hit the target in the
>next
>> hex.
>
>He might. However, the example I started with was _he has no idea where the
>target is_. Under the present rules, he still gets a 0 OCV.
What would you prefer? -4 OCV, -10 OCV, someone is still going to hit
randomly from a chance richochet or something. I wouldn't want to lose
that chance. I like semi-cinematic games.
>> What if the special effect is that NRP power uses senses that the
>> character does not have to determine the location of the target? The
>> character just describes the target, activates the power, and off it
>goes.
>> The character can give targetting information if he has it ("Hit Mr. Bad
>> over there" pointing), otherwise the power just figures it out for itself
>> ("Hit Mr. Bad").
>
>If the weapon has the ability to sense things that the character cannot,
>then you need to buy more senses. If it can be given instructions and
>carries them out, then it needs a Computer with the proper program.
So then NRP is +1/2 for dubious benefit. You still need to spend more
points for the power. At that point you should give it its own DEX and
then the character can perform some other action in the phase. :-)
Joe
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Adventures vs Sourcebooks
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:49:36 -0500
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David Stallard writes:
>I can remember way back in the early '80s when it was so exciting to bring
>home a new D&D module and read about level after level of a new dungeon.
>Maybe my affinity for pre-written adventures is just a nostalgia thing.
It
>looks like TSR will be getting back to this sort of thing with the reborn
>Greyhawk world (it seems as if they are saying "to heck with role-playing,
>let's hack-n-slash!", which might not be a bad move).
I wonder how much of it has to do with the success of Dungeon magazine?
I've subscribed for the last 5 years, and while the quality has been up and
down, I can always expect at least one decent adventure. They probably
average 2 to 3 playable adventures (if you like fantasy, and depending on
your taste, of course). Some of the others are fun to read, too. (But
we've already established that no one on this list ever buys anything that
they will not play :-) All of that for $3 per issue (subscription rate).
Contrast that to TSR modules. Pay $5 for 32 pages, which is often drivel.
I wonder if it has to with this: The modules are written for a specific
setting (usually). So the writer can assume all kinds of background
knowledge. The Dungeon adventures have to appeal to a wider audience. So
the author makes a lot of effort to provide pertinent information, hints,
and even conversion information. For example, the better writers tend to
give you the strategy of the villians in plain English--they don't assume
you have anything more than the basic supplements. Not coincidently, this
make the adventures much easier to convert to Hero.
BTW: Since the above sounds like a ringing endorsement, I should point out
that I've let my subscription lapse because the quality has been way down.
However, I just bought issue 67 of the shelf. It's the best issue in the
last 2 years. So maybe they are getting it back together.
Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: New topic: Teleportation & Usable Against Others
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David W Salmon writes:
> Defense would be characters with Teleport, Desolid, Hardened Defenses, or
> personal Damage Resistance (as an innate ability).
Sorry for the tangent... but *WHY*?
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From: "David W. Salmon" <dwsalmon@earthlink.net>
To: "Champions News Group" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: New topic: Teleportation & Usable Against Others
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:15:05 -0700
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Defense would be characters with Teleport, Desolid, Hardened Defenses, or
personal Damage Resistance (as an innate ability).
-----Original Message-----
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Thursday, June 11, 1998 2:24 PM
Subject: Re: New topic: Teleportation & Usable Against Others
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>David W Salmon writes:
>
>> I have created a character with Tport powers and my question is this: If
>> I were to buy Tport w/ Usable Against Others and I wanted to Tport up to
>> 400kgs how would you buy it? Assume the base 10" of Tport w/ no other
>> advantages/disadvantages.
>
>What is the reasonably common defense against this power?
>
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>
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Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 22:44:18 -0500 (CDT)
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net>
Subject: bases
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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In my current campaign, my PC's have a base. They have been trying
to come up
with ideas on how to spend the points for the base. Any suggestions for them?
Base presently has the following:
An AI
Entangle
Mechanics lab
Physics lab
and a Disguise skill
Also has a few vehicles here and there.
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Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 21:16:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dale Ward <daleaward@rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: New topic: Teleportation & Usable Against Others
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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Greetings,
---"Robert A. West" wrote:
> Filksinger wrote:
> >
> > If a power has a built-in mechanic for a particular effect, such as
> > Teleport has for extra mass, that mechanic will take precedence over
> > Advantages, and especially over add-ons for an Advantage. The method under
> > Teleportation applies. (IMNSHO)
> >
> > Filksinger
>
> Sorry to puncture your humility, but the description of Usable Against
> Others is pretty explicit that it applies to Teleport, since that is
> given as an example on HSR p.98:
Although I can't recall any HSR ruling on the subject, it has always
been my understanding that you only use the Power Advantages/Disadvantages
when the affected Power does not have a built-in way to simulate the desired
effect.
I believe that the example you reference was used (possibly in error)
simply because it was a convenient extreme to demonstrate the Advantage.
> IMNSHO, the +5 pts for x2 mass inherent in Teleport *also* applies, as
> would any size-related increase to any other power. You cannot do
> anything with a power UAO that you could not do, yourself, with the power
> without the UAO.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this. Could you explain
further?
>You are making the mistake of generalizing from a specific stricture on
>Increased Maximum Range, "It can only be bought for Powers that don't
>already have a way to increase their maximum range." This language does not
>appear on any other Advantage, and is not part of the UAO description, so I
>would judge that it does not apply.
This may be the basis for my understanding, but I still believe that
it's correct simply because it doesn't seem logical to have two different ways
to simulate the same effect. What purpose would it serve, especially in a
case where one method is less expensive than the other?
> Let's face it, Teleport UAO is an obnoxious power. It *should* be expensive.
I agree. But, it is every player's right... NAY! Responsibility!... to
purchase his/her powers and abilities at the lowest possible cost.
<salute>
It's The American Way!
</salute>
Dale A. Ward
[Did Somebody Say *BLOW UP* McDonald's?]
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
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Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 21:33:45 -0700
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com>
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com
Organization: None
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: RPG "collectors"
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David Stallard wrote:
> Anyway, I guess I'm just looking to see if most roleplayers like to horde
> different systems, or if I'm somewhat unusual in this respect. When I show
> a new RPG to my gaming group, they just shake their heads sadly as if to
> say that they see my addiction but don't know what to do about it. -grin-
Boy do I ever! First of all I have bought almost every Superhero game I have
come across. I get lots of Palladium Games I never play and I still get AD&D
stuff and I haven't played in years. I like to make Characters from several
systems and see how they compare. I just enjoy looking through RPG's and I
found out early on that if I buy stuff I'm helping in a small way to keep them
coming...
>
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Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 21:39:19 -0700 (PDT)
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To: champ-l@omg.org
From: q9821328@mail.connect.usq.edu.au (Bryce Undy) (by way of Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net&>
Subject: Defenders Of Justice
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DARK CHAMPIONS
Defenders
Of
Justice
'Hudson City, a thriving metropolis of several million souls, is a city
much like many others in modern America. Splendour and squalor,
affluence and poverty, generosity and selfishness, justice and evil
exist side-by-side in a almost oxymoron state while the inhabitants
simple try to get by from day to day, ignoring the absurdities and
dangers of modern urban life. At night, while honest folk hide behind
triple-locked doors or look over their shoulders as they walk quickly
from one lighted area to another, groups of young and not-so-young men
prowl the night, preying upon helpless victims and robbing the city not
only of its wealth but much of its spirit as well'
-S.Long 1993, p.7
Defenders of Justice is PBEM campaign set in the city of Hudson, with a
few modifiers. Players will take the role of Idealistic 'Vigilantes',
defending or avenging the innocent citizens of Hudson City. Player
Characters may, if they so choose, have 'super' powers and origins, but
remember to keep the 'street level' atmosphere is mind. The only
restriction that I will enforce strongly is that the characters be
beacons of light in an otherwise dark setting. No Killers!!!
Note that I am heavily influenced by Batman, Spiderman, Daredevil
etc... I don't mind fantasic origins and powers, within reason (If it
makes being bitten by a radioactive spider seem sane, it may be too
wierd, but then again, I like to see a origin story that did that!!:)
The campaign will be a combination of the above influences, for example,
Hudson City will be portrayed as a cross between DC's Gotham, and
Marvel's New York, though closer to Gotham. Adventures will be tailored
to the characters, so the Detective style characters will only rarely
encounter supercriminals compared to those in spandex who swing through
the city.
Hudson City is the centre of crime and corruption in North America.
Its dark gothic style architecture imposes a repressed atmosphere, in
which the darker elements flourish. The citizens fear this city,
knowing that there is nothing they can do... or can they? Corrupt
police officials maintain the status quo, suppressing any officers who
buck the 'system'. Protestors, reporters, and others go 'missing',
while political fat cats grow plump on the taxpayer's money(with a bit
extra on the side). The foul cloud of oppression hangs over this once
fine city, the stench of corruption smothering honest reformers, while
hiding the deeds of its darker residents.
When vigilantes appear in this city, they are far too similar to the
other foul offspring of the night, cold killers, demented as much, if
not more, as those they hunt. But it is time for a change, for a
different kind of vigilante to appear, one who is a beacon of light, a
Defender of Justice.
This campaign setting first appears to be rather dark, even
depressing. But this is so that the heroes can make a real difference
in their setting. They will be a force of change that will reshape the
City's very being. And while bad cops, and corrupt politicians do run
the city now, it is only a matter of time before they a replaced by
honest citizens, and good police officers. The heroes will make many
enemies, take many risk, but if they fight the good fight, they will
make a difference.
PC Creation:
Base Points: 100
Disad Points: 150
Damage(DC): 4-10
Resistant Defence: 0-8
Non-Resistant Defence: 4-12
Combat Values w/Levels 5-10
Skill Roles: 8-/14-
Dexterity: 15-20
Speed: 3-5
Max Attack Active Points: 50
Characteristics:
*Stats taken above Normal Human Maximum cost double.
Skills:
*Criminology, and Streetwise are highly recommended
*At least one of the following Knowledges should be taken: KS:Law
Enforcement World
KS:Espionage World
KS:Military/Mercenary/Terroist World
KS:[Organised Crime Group]
Perks:
*Contacts are Very Important, and thus cost double.
Powers:
*All powers are acceptable, but avoid superheroes that are... well...
too four coloured. Please, no flying, cape wearing, energy throwing,
supermen. Remember the setting. I may also choose to dull down powers
in some situations, or just say NO to unbalancing powers.( like high
level telepathy:)
*Characters should have some form of movement power, like a vechile, or
a swingline, or something...
Game Running Info:
*Turns will be processed, edited, and responses sent daily(hopefully),
but sometimes I may be delayed for several days. Players are expected
to try and keep up with this schedule, but if you are going to be unable
to reply for more then three days, please contact me.
*As this is a street level game, based on characters like spiderman, and
batman, it is understandable, if not desirable, that players will create
characters that are somewhat anti-social. It is preferable that
characters can, if the need or desire is there, to be able to work
together. But I will cater to several games at once if necessary.
*The campaign will be run in Seasons. Each Season will be made up of
several major stories, in which all the characters will work together
for the greater good. The Seasons will also be made up of smaller
stories which revolve around character, and campaign development. These
smaller stories do not requier everyone's participation, but if the
players want to work together, that would be great.
Please send replies to the address below...
Thanks,
Bryce
John Morningstar
--
---
-----------------------------------------------------
bryce - q9821328@mail.connect.usq.edu.au
The University of Southern Queensland
The opinion expressed is that of the writer,
and not necessarily that of the University.
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Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 04:39:33 +0000
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: bases
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Palace of Dwarves wrote:
>
> In my current campaign, my PC's have a base. They have been trying
> to come up
> with ideas on how to spend the points for the base. Any suggestions for them?
>
> Base presently has the following:
> An AI
> Entangle
> Mechanics lab
> Physics lab
> and a Disguise skill
> Also has a few vehicles here and there.
Without knowing what type of characters are using the base, I'll just
say what one of our teams had. Our base had points spent on these as well as
what
you have:
1. A support organization. Doctors, mechanics, admins, gardners, investigators
a librarian, a janitor, drivers, pilots, etc...
2. Lot's of labs.
3. A garden.
4. Field offices
5. Secret passages
6. Regen on the base
7. XD space
8. A swimming pool with our very own robot.
Think a Dr. Strange/FF mix for a base.
-Mark Lemming
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Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 21:46:57 -0700
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com>
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com
Organization: None
To: hero-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Speaking of lists...
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Bill Svitavsky wrote:
> At 02:40 PM 6/10/98 -0400, Lisa Hartjes wrote:
>
> >Does anyone know if there's a list somewhere out there that has all the
> >various magic (both pro, anti, and using) groups in the Champions Universe?
>
> There is, but anyone who reads it goes insane...
>
> :-)
Did NoT (whooo whooo!!!)!!!!!!!
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:04:24 -0700
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From: Todd Hanson
>
>
<snip>
>
> Okay, here's your new replacement mechanic (although this doesn't seem
> to be a 'replacement' to me. It seems to be the way it is supposed to
> work)
Thanks for the suggestions.
> When targeting an unseen target:
<snip>
>
>
> The question comes back to: can you identify the target hex?
<snip>
> I don't know who told you that a successful to hit roll with an OCV of 0
> will always hit, even if you don't know where the target is.. but I
> would stop accepting advice from this person. That rule appears no
> where in MY book.
Try the descriptions of Darkness, Flash, and Invisibility, and the first paragraph of page
137 of the BBB. All clearly state that a character who fails a PER roll against a target
that he cannot perceive with a targeting sense has a 0 OCV at range, with no other penalty
mentioned.
Since a failed PER roll is the (inevitable) result when you cannot sense a target at all,
this results in a 0 OCV at range against a target that cannot be detected whatsoever. In
the case of NRP, this results in an OCV of 0 against a target at any range whatsoever,
even if you cannot determine to within the nearest mile where he is. You can always _fail_
a PER roll.
>
> > Then, if the people I have been arguing this with on the list are my
> > players, I should get new players?
>
>
> Well, to be honest, *I* wouldn't game with some of the people on this
> list. Some people insist on interpreting the rules in off the wall
> ways, just to have something to argue about.
You may be right, though I refuse to attribute motives to people whom I've never met.
>
> > There are lots of situations where a PER roll is impossible, but targeting
> > can still be done. They include the standard use of mortars and other
> > indirect fire weapons and shooting at targets when you can't see them but
> > know from experience where they should be, such as buildings.
>
>
> Then use an AK or an intelligence roll. Can the PC remember the exact
> location of the target, or figure it out based on available data? If
> yes, target aquired. If not, he's wasting ammo again.
Agreed. I am trying to lay out a rule for this, including the penalties for distance, and
was hoping for help.
> > All I am asking for is suggestions for a mechanic for determining the
> > difficulty of doing things like this. It should cover the fairly easy
> > (Player: "'Back, invisible varlet!' I swing my sword around me, in case he
> > is trying to sneak up on me." (Rolls dice.) GM: "Good roll. 'Ouch! You'll
> > pay for this, knight!' You hear sounds of someone running away."), the
>
>
> Okay, player has identified the hex(es) he wishes to attack. Since he
> is attacking several adjacent hexes, have him use the sweep manuever.
> Yes, he DOES have a slim chance of hitting, but if he can't perceive the
> invisible person sneaking up on him (and the invis CAN see him swinging
> the sword), he SHOULD have very little chance of hitting.
Agreed. This example _is_ covered by the present rules pretty well.
>
> > fairly difficult ("He released this sight and sound suppression device
> > because he is trying to escape, I'll bet, probably through that window the
> > alarm said was broken. I know the room well, so I fire in the direction of
> > that window." (Rolls dice.) GM: "The room suddenly lightens. You see the
> > burglar lying on the ground under the high window. You don't seem to have
> > hit him, though you did hit the window. You suspect he lost his grip when
> > you frightened him by nearly blowing his head off."), to the very difficult
>
> Player has identified the target hex - the one in front of the window.
> If this is where the target actually IS, then he has a chance to hit.
> If the target has headed out the door instead, the player is wasting
> ammo again.
The problem here is with the term "identified". Just because the character knows the area
well doesn't mean he actually picks the correct location when blind. If I placed a real
person into a large room which they know well while blindfolded, and asked them to point
_directly_ at something the size of a door, they might well miss. I'm trying to create a
mechanic for determining if they miss, and maybe even by how much they miss.
> > ("My super ray can strike anywhere on Earth, once it gets precise
> > coordinates. I have spent three days aiming it, calculating the exact
> > distance, angle, and slope. As soon as the TV says you are driving in front
> > of that store, Mr. President, you will pay! HAHAHAHAHA!").
>
> Again, the target hex has been identified. You might want to be nice
> and give some bonuses to his OCV 0 since he CAN see the president on TV
> and has a little better idea of WHERE in the hex he actually is.
The target hex may have been identified, but how hard is it to precisely aim the weapon at
a spot you can't see, three thousand miles away. I certainly wouldn't give it away for
free, saying, "OK, you've identified the target hex."
> > I wanted a new mechanic that would cover all of these. What I've gotten so
> > far is people telling me that the present rules are sufficient, and people
> > telling me the present rules don't work and to use "common sense".
>
>
> Okay, I've given you a mechanic. Does it make sense?
It makes sense. Thank you.
Filksinger
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Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 05:57:51 -0500
To: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net&> champ-l@sysabend.org
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: bases
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At 10:44 PM 6/11/98 -0500, Palace of Dwarves wrote:
>
> In my current campaign, my PC's have a base. They have been trying
>to come up
>with ideas on how to spend the points for the base. Any suggestions for
them?
Danger Room.
Damon
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Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 07:31:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: CHAR: Nite Owl II
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"Y'know, this must be how ordinary people feel.
This must be how ordinary people feel around us."
NITE OWL II
(Daniel Drieberg)
Val CHA Cost Roll Notes
18 STR 8 13- 300kg; 3 1/2d6
18 DEX 24 13- OCV: 6 / DCV: 6
15 CON 10 12-
11 BODY 2 11-
20 INT 10 13- PER Roll 13-
13 EGO 6 12- ECV: 4
18 PRE 8 13- PRE Attack: 3 1/2d6
12 COM 1 11-
8 PD 4 Total: 8 PD
8 ED 5 Total: 8 ED
4 SPD 12 Phases: 3, 6, 9, 12
7 REC 0
36 END 0
30 STUN 2
Total Characteristics Cost: 92
Movement: Running: 6" / 12"
Swimming: 2" / 4"
Cost Powers & Skills
Combat Training:
15 Combat Skill Levels: +3 with HTH
Martial Arts: Karate
Maneuver OCV DCV Damage
4 Block +2 +2 Block, Abort
4 Disarm -1 +1 28 STR Disarm
4 Dodge -- +5 Dodge vs All, Abrot
3 Legsweep +2 -1 4 1/2d6 Strike; Target Falls
4 Punch, Snap Kick +0 +2 5 1/2d6 Strike
5 Side/Spin Kick -2 +1 7 1/d6 Strike
Equipment:
Vehicle: 'Archie' the Owlship
13 Handcuffs: 5 DEF, 1 BODY (-1/2), Transparent to Attack (+1/2),
Entangle can be negated by a sucessful Lockpicking roll (-1/4),
No Range (-1/2), Target must be effective DCV of 0 to attach (-2),
Can only Entangle two paired limbs (-1/2), 4 Recoverable
Charges (-1/2), OAF (-1)
13 Laser Pen: RKA: 2d6, AP (+1/2), Reduced by Range in fog, smoke,
snow and similar adverse conditions (-0), No Effect vs Highly Reflective
Surfaces (-1/4), No KB (-1/4), 4 Shots (-1), OAF (-1)
5 Medical Kit: +5 with Paramedic Skill, OAF (-1)
4 Micro-Recorder: Eidetic Memory, Hearing Only (-1/2), OAF (-1)
4 Mini-Camera: Eidetic Memory, Vision Only (-1/2), OAF (-1)
2 Night Goggles: IR Vision, OAF (-1)
2 Rebreather: Life Support vs Smoke and Gases, OAF (-1)
2 Two-Way Radio: Radio Listen and Transmit, OAF (-1)
6 Smoke Capsules: Darkness vs Sight: 2"r, Range Based on STR (-1/4),
4 Charges of 1 Turn (-1 1/4), OAF (-1)
Background Skills:
50 Base: The Owl's Nest
10 Money: Wealthy
3 AK: New York 13-
3 Breakfall 13-
3 Climbing 13-
3 Combat Pilot 13-
3 Criminology 13-
3 Deduction 13-
7 Electronics 13-
5 Inventing 14-
3 KS: Law 13-
3 KS: Ornithology 13-
3 KS: Police Procedure 13-
3 Lockpicking 13-
7 Mechanics 13-
3 Paramedic 13-
3 PS: Ornithologist 13-
3 Security Systems 13-
3 Streetwise 13-
4 TF: Ground Vehicles, Hoverbike, Owlship
3 Scientist
2 SC: Aeronautics 13-
2 SC: Electrical Engineering 13-
2 SC: Mechanical Engineering 13-
2 SC: Ornithology 13-
2 SC: Zoology 13-
228 Total Powers & Skills Cost
320 Total Character Cost
100+ Disadvantages
20 Normal Characteristic Maxima
10 Physical Limitation: Wears glasses
Psychological Limitation:
5 Craves Adventure (U, M)
15 Feels Compelled to help others (C, S)
15 Upholds the Good (C, S)
15 Secret ID: Daniel Drieberg
140 Experience
320 Total Disadvantage Points
Designers Notes:
Born Daniel Dreiberg, the second Nite Owl was left a great deal of money
by his banker father. He studied birds, planes and mythology at Harvard,
getting degrees in aeronautics and zoology. Around 1962 or so, Dreiberg
approached Hollis Mason and asked to continue using the name of 'Nite Owl.
Mason agreed and the second Nite owl, armed with an impressive array of
technological devices debuted soon after. In 1965 he teamed up with
Rorschach and together they took down the Underboss and assorted street
gangs.
After the Keene Act was passed in 1977, Nite Owl retired, writing papers
for ornithology journals. He also let himself get out of shape, or as
Rorschach put it; "A flabby failure who sits whimpering in his basement."
In 1985 he met up with Silk Spectre II (falling in love with her) and
ended up freeing Rorschach from prison and eventually tracking down
Ozymandias to his Antarctica base to discover the truth behind the death
of the Comedian. At the end of "Watchmen", he changes his identity to
that of Sam Hollis.
Description:
Nite Owl looks to be of average height, standing 5'8" or so. He has dark
brown hair and glasses. The early Nite Owl (c 1966-1977) is in excellent
physical shape (which this charater sheet is meant to represent), the 1985
Nite Owl is still in good shape, but has developed a bit of a paunch.
Nite Owls costume is a grey body suit with brown trunks, boots and gloves.
Ove rthis he wears a cpae and an owl-shaped cowel. His IR goggles help to
mask his exposed face. If you've never seen "Watchman", just picture
Batman in brown andd grey and you won't be far off.
Powers Notes:
Nite Owl is an inventive genius. Although not as smart as Ozymandias (but
then, who is?) Nite Owl still has an impressive set of inventions to his
credit. His Owlship is a marvel of modern aeronautic engineering, capable
of operating both in the air and under water. It can fly from New York to
the Antarctic in a single day, can hover between buildings and is
invisible to radar. He also built an impressive pair of compact
hoverbikes (stored in the Owlship), IR goggles, and a compact laser pen.
Scenes in his underground lab/garage show a helicopter, a car and a
prototype exoskeleton (which Nite Owl abandoned after the initial field
test resulted in a broken arm).
Nite Owl backs up his gadgetry with excellent hand-to-hand combat
techniques and broad range of useful crimefighting skills. He is also
exceedingly wealthy, has a sizable 'base' located in the basement of his
townhouse and owns several nearby buildings to facilitate the comings and
goings of his airship. At some point (in 1985 Note Owl states "years
ago") he set up emergency identities to use in case he would ever need to
abandon his life as Daniel Drieberg
Disadvantages Notes:
As with the first Nite Owl, Nite Owl II is probably the most mentally
stable of the 'modern' "Watchmen" heroes. He wants to help others, mainly
because he feels a bit guilty over his excessive wealth, but also has a
deeply hidden craving for excitement and adventure. It is telling that he
can't successfully make love to Silk Specter II until after he donned his
costume and went out 'adventuring'. It is also interesting to note that
he still keeps a signed photo of the Twilight Lady in his memorabilia
case.
(Nite Owl II created by Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons, character sheet
created by Michael Surbrook)
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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From: Lisa Hartjes <Hartjes@TCBS.net>
Reply-To: "Hartjes@TCBS.net" <Hartjes@TCBS.net>
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: bases
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 08:27:18 -0400
Organization: Tri-City Business Services
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<< In my current campaign, my PC's have a base. They have been
trying to come up
with ideas on how to spend the points for the base. Any suggestions for
them?>>
A vault to store potentially dangerous items. That way you won't have to
put it in a closet with a note on the door that says not to touch what was
inside. :)
(It's a long story, but that's what happened to one of the groups I play
with. Base was incomplete, and I couldn't think of anywhere out of the way
we could put the floating, glowing metal sphere except in said closet. :)
Lisa
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Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:08:09 -0400
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: bases
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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At 04:39 AM 6/12/98 +0000, Mark Lemming wrote:
>Palace of Dwarves wrote:
>>
>> In my current campaign, my PC's have a base. They have been trying
>> to come up
>> with ideas on how to spend the points for the base. Any suggestions for
them?
>>
>> Base presently has the following:
>> An AI
>> Entangle
>> Mechanics lab
>> Physics lab
>> and a Disguise skill
>> Also has a few vehicles here and there.
>Without knowing what type of characters are using the base, I'll just
>say what one of our teams had.
[snip]
As Mark implies, the characters using the base should have a strong
influence on the kind of things the base has. If there's an aquatic hero,
for instance, there might be a pool, underground water tunnels, etc. Mystic
heroes might have magic mirrors (Clairsentient Foci), magical servants,
etc. Officially sanctioned heroes might have direct links to various
authorities. And some very useful items will be limited to high tech (or
high magic) heroes: teleportation devices, healing machines, etc.
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Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 06:16:10 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: bases
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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At 10:44 PM 6/11/1998 -0500, Palace of Dwarves wrote:
>
> In my current campaign, my PC's have a base. They have been trying
>to come up
>with ideas on how to spend the points for the base. Any suggestions for
them?
>
> Base presently has the following:
> An AI
> Entangle
> Mechanics lab
> Physics lab
> and a Disguise skill
> Also has a few vehicles here and there.
I can think of these right offhand:
A communications system (HRRH) to contact the authorities, people in the
field, etc., and vice versa.
Some security guards (a group of 75-point followers).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:53:06 EDT
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>Anyway, I guess I'm just looking to see if most roleplayers like to
horde
>different systems, or if I'm somewhat unusual in this respect.
I've got several Mage and Vampire:Dark Ages books that I bought knowing I
would never play them (I know only one local group that plays White Wolf,
and I'd really rather not get involved with those people). On the other
hand, they're interesting to read, and maybe I can swipe some ideas from
them. (Putting the Sons of Ether in a Justice Inc. game is tempting.)
Leah
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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: bases
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:53:59 -0400 (EDT)
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> In my current campaign, my PC's have a base. They have been trying
> to come up
> with ideas on how to spend the points for the base. Any suggestions for them?
>
> Base presently has the following:
> An AI
> Entangle
> Mechanics lab
> Physics lab
> and a Disguise skill
> Also has a few vehicles here and there.
Have they drawn a floor plan for the base? I find that helps me discover
what's missing. The characters can wander through the base thinking about
what they would use the base for and determine what they have forgotten.
Joe
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Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 08:31:19 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: New topic: Teleportation & Usable Against Others
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Dale Ward wrote:
>
> ---"Robert A. West" wrote:[in reply to Filksinger]
> > Sorry to puncture your humility, but the description of Usable Against
> > Others is pretty explicit that it applies to Teleport, since that is
> > given as an example on HSR p.98:
>
> Although I can't recall any HSR ruling on the subject, it has always
> been my understanding that you only use the Power Advantages/Disadvantages
> when the affected Power does not have a built-in way to simulate the desired
> effect.
Your reasoning does not apply to this case.
You are correct that, if an advantage and an intrinsic add-on have
exactly the same effect, and were both usable, then one of them
is redundant. This is explicitly resolved in the case of Increased
Maximum Range. It is implicitly resolved in the case of Area Effect,
because it is almost never profitable to use the Advantage on a power
that already has a way to increase its radius.
In this case, the Advantage and the intrinsic add-on have different
effects, as can be seen from the following examples, all of which are
valid powers.
a) 20 5" Teleportation x4 mass
b) 40 5" Teleportation x4 mass UAO(+1)
c) 45 5" Teleportation x4 mass UAO(+1 1/4)
d) 50 5" Teleportation x4 mass UAO(+1 1/2)
With (a), I can teleport myself and up to 300kg besides. I cannot
teleport anything/anyone if I don't go with it, so it is tough to
teleport someone or something into danger.
With (b), I can also teleport another creature regardless of mass with
its clothes and small equipment, or an inanimate object of up to 100kg.
It is harder to teleport someone or something else, but I can do it.
With (c), I increase my largest inanimate object to 200kg, and can
teleport equipment with another creature so long as the total does not
exceed 200kg. It is still harder to teleport something else if I stay
behind.
With (d), I can teleport 400kg whether I go or not.
> I believe that the example you reference was used (possibly in error)
> simply because it was a convenient extreme to demonstrate the Advantage.
I have checked the HSR power list thoroughly, and there are only two
powers where a mass limit is stated: Teleportation and Extra-Dimensional
Movement. XDM is extremely rare, and is philosophically very similar to
Teleport anyway. The authors went to the trouble to mention UAO in the
TP description, and mentioned TP/UAO as an *extremely expensive* power in
UAO, without including language that eliminates the need to buy the
additional mass on TP if one buys UAO. The only reasonable conclusion in
my mind is that they intended one to have to buy both if one wants both.
>
> > IMNSHO, the +5 pts for x2 mass inherent in Teleport *also* applies, as
> > would any size-related increase to any other power. You cannot do
> > anything with a power UAO that you could not do, yourself, with the power
> > without the UAO.
>
> I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this. Could you explain
> further?
UAO and UBO do not add abilities to the underlying power, they grant the
power to another creature or object. In the case of UBO, the control and
END cost go to the grantee. In the case of UAO, they remain with the
grantor. The power is otherwise unchanged.
For example, if I use Shapeshifting UAO on a Giant weighing 400kg, I can
change the Giant into a 400kg Giant Slug, but that doesn't make the Giant
Slug my servant: that would require Mind Control. Neither can I change
the Giant into an ordinary Slug: that would require Shrinking.
In a similar vein, having UAO on Teleportation does not allow me to
teleport more mass than I could teleport by simply using the power myself
and ignoring the UAO.
>
> >You are making the mistake of generalizing from a specific stricture on
> >Increased Maximum Range, . . .
>
> This may be the basis for my understanding, but I still believe that
> it's correct simply because it doesn't seem logical to have two different ways
> to simulate the same effect. What purpose would it serve, especially in a
> case where one method is less expensive than the other?
It serves a purpose if one must take *both* in order to get the effect.
Then it is irrelevant which is the more and which the less expensive.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
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Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 11:47:21 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Game hopping
Cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Here's another "generic question" for you, which is somewhat
long-winded....
My group (3 people) has serious conflict of interest problems. We all seem
to be interested in playing something different--we all have two or three
games that we'd like to play, but there is very little (if any) overlap
between us. Despite this, we've been able to stick with games for a
while.... We played Champions for a while, then switched to Earthdawn for
almost a year, and are now back to Champions. However, I am starting to
get very interested in Deadlands (I'm torn between trying something new and
sticking with Champions, a "known cool" game). Another player would really
like to play a miniatures "campaign", where the outcome of one battle
affects the next one, or else run a Star Wars campaign. The third player
would like to run Birthright or Dark Suns (both AD&D settings). To put
another wrench in the works, two of the three are interested in playing one
game for a long time, so they can watch their character grow and evolve.
To throw yet another wrench in the works, I am the only consistent GM in
the group...one player has never GMed before, and the other GMs for a short
time but doesn't stick it out. So, I am almost always the GM, regardless
of what we play. This has led to some GM burnout, where I sit around all
week thinking "I don't want to have to prepare yet another adventure...its
too much homework." I think being a player in a campaign would reenergize
me somewhat.
My suggested solution to the burnout problem was for us to alternate
between two different campaigns. One week we would play the game I GM
(currently Champions), the next week somebody else would GM some other
game, and then the third week we would be back to me GMing again. This
gives each GM double the time to prepare for his game, plus it lets them be
players as well. However, the problem of divided interest rears its head
again when we try to decide what to fit into that 2nd slot.
So, I've come up with the following solution: Not only do we alternate
between two campaigns, but we declare each game to be a
"mini-campaign"....that is, it is essentially an extended adventure
(probably lasting 6-10 sessions). When a mini-campaign is over, that slot
is available for another game to take its place. That way, we all get to
try the games we are interested in, plus each player will be more willing
to try a "less interesting" game because they know that they aren't giving
up a chance to try their "most interesting" game indefinitely. Of course,
if we found some game/setting that all three of us loved, we would probably
toss out the mini-campaign thing (at least for that slot...the other might
still be in flux) and make it a long-running campaign. The only thing we
are giving up using this approach is the "epic" story of a certain
character...you will play that character for a little while, and then when
the slot changes you make new ones and start over.
In case I've lost everyone at this point, here's an illustration using
random made-up mini-campaigns:
Sessions 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11: Earthdawn--"A Horror in our Midst"
Sessions 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16: Champions--"Destroyer Triumphant!"
Sessions 13, 15, 17, 19, 21: Star Wars---"Boba Fett's Gambit"
Sessions 18, 20, 22, 24, 26, 28: Deadlands--"Starin' Down a Smokin'
Barrel"
Sessions 23, 25, 27, 29, 31, 33, 35: Champions--"The 8th Street War"
...and so on. I listed Champions twice to show that once a game has
finished, it doesn't mean that the game will be "ineligible" to come up
again in the rotation. In fact, the 2nd time a game comes up, it could be
a "sequel" and the same characters from the 1st time could be used again.
Anyway, the rotation and number of sessions wouldn't be
pre-determined...when one mini-campaign started wrapping up, we'd all
decide on what to fill that slot with. To help with my GM burnout problem,
I would only agree to GM one of the two slots at any time...it's possible
that I could be a player in both slots, if our third player builds up the
resolve to try his hand at GMing.
So, my question is, does this seem valid? What problems do you see with
this method? Do you have a better way to fix all the "problems" described
above? I've gotten the impression from comments here and there that a lot
of groups do this sort of thing anyway (although they might only have 1
slot, so one guy is GM every week until the campaign is over, then someone
else takes over with a new game and/or setting), so this probably isn't a
revolutionary concept. For our group, it will be new in that we will
actually have a campaign come to closure....usually, we just play and play
until interest wanes, then the storyline is just kinda left hanging
forever.
I realize that game-hopping may not be such a problem with the people on
this list, since it seems that many of you are "Hero-only" gamers who adapt
different genres to the Hero rules. Still, I think you might have a
similar "genre-hopping" problem with players all wanting to try different
genres within the Hero system.
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From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: bases
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 02:09:02 +1000
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> At 10:44 PM 6/11/1998 -0500, Palace of Dwarves wrote:
> >
> > In my current campaign, my PC's have a base. They have been
trying
> >to come up
> >with ideas on how to spend the points for the base. Any suggestions for
> them?
> >
> > Base presently has the following:
> > An AI
> > Entangle
> > Mechanics lab
> > Physics lab
> > and a Disguise skill
> > Also has a few vehicles here and there.
>
A discussion room. One of my groups was known for it's honor and
promise-keeping leader, so they kept getting called on to act as neutral
ground
for feuding heroes and even police & criminals looking for an unnoficial
'court', but the 'guests'
usually ended up trashing the place- and not paying for the damages. so
they
rebuilt thir prison room into a place to keep people while they argued,
even ended up rigging it with tasers and power-draining gizmo's.
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Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:25:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Feedback on power set wanted
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One of my current projects is adapting some material from GURPS to Hero.
The material in questions is 3x3 Eyes for GURPS, written by a gentleman in
Brazil. He's given me his permission to turn his material into something
compatible with Hero System game mechanics.
That said, I'm looking for feedback on a power set I'm developing for a
being called a 'Wu'. A Wu is a human (or similar creature) that has had
it's soul removed from its body. This results in an immortal and
unkillable being. The fact that you *cannot* kill a Wu is considered a
freebie, the powers given below are meant to quantify most of a Wu's
powers in Hero game mechanics, but the actually *cannot die* portion of
the package is a given.
Note: 'Wu' means void or nothingness.
POWERS of a WU
13 CON: +10, Does not affect Figured (-1/2)
(This makes the Wu harder to Stun and knock out)
30 BODY: +30, Invisible Power Effects: Sight (+1/2), Only to Stave
Off Point of Death (-2)
(this makes the Wu nigh impossible to kill. One can shred a Wu easily,
they are 'normal' humans in that regard, but to actually kill one? No
way.)
10 Damage Reduction: 1/4 Energy, Resistant, Stun Only (-1/2)
10 Damage Reduction: 1/4 Physical, Resistant, Stun Only (-1/2)
(These powers make the Wu hard to put down with one shot. The Wu can feel
pain and can be stunned, but they bounce back much quicker from even
*extreme* physical trauma)
5 Life Support: Does not Need to Eat, Excrete or Sleep
(Note: You can't starve a Wu. A Wu will often eat and sleep etc, but only
does so out of habit.)
9 Life Support: Immune to Aging, Disease (and Poisons), Radiation
(More defensive powers. A Wu regenerates *so* fast that disease, poison
and radiation exposure is unabl;e to really affect the Wu.)
120 Regeneration: 12 BODY/Turn
(Using the optional Regen suggeston in the HSR, the Wu gets one BODY back
per *segment*. Note: in this game, Regen *cannot* regrow a lost limb.)
96 Aid: 4d6 to BODY, max of 80 points. Continous (+1),
Uncontrolled (+1/2), 0 END (+1/2), Persistant (+1/2), Trigger:
Loss of Limbs (+1/4), Self Only (-1/2), Only to Starting
Values (-1/2), Only to reform lost limbs (-1), Full Phase (-1/2),
Aid triggers on the Phase *after* the Wu stops paying END (-1/4)
(And this is how a Wu regrows a lost limb. The Wu will create the limb
from virtually nothing if needed. )
15 Does Not Bleed
(A Wu will not bleed to death. You can smash a Wu and get a bloody corpse
(or something that looks like a corpse), but the Wu will not loose any
additional BODY.)
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:42:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: "K. Ulstein" <kenhar@u.washington.edu>
To: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net>
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: bases
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On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Palace of Dwarves wrote:
>
> In my current campaign, my PC's have a base. They have been trying
>to come up
>with ideas on how to spend the points for the base. Any suggestions for them?
>
> Base presently has the following:
> An AI
> Entangle
> Mechanics lab
> Physics lab
> and a Disguise skill
> Also has a few vehicles here and there.
>
Well I'm not sure what the campaign is, but here goes:
Secret passages and spy holes. Lots of em. It's lo-tek, almost
completely free and it gives you a big advantage when you are on your
own turf.
A meeting room.
So the President of Synth Corp is coming over? The mob boss wants to
make an offer? You could just pull up a sofa and a card table, -OR-
you could have a realy classy room . Something that shows you have
style. It can also be used to impress dates, or as a staging ground
for angst and onwie. Think big spaces, hardwood, and a view of the
city.
A grand entryway/press room.
When the press comes are you trying to shoo them out of your TV room?
Or do you have a place to 'roll out the red carpet?' Get one! Now!
After all, why should the badguys get all the good places? If you
realy wanted to ham it up, you could add teleprompters (aid oratory),
some flattering lights (aid com) a comforting lectern (aid pre) and a
podium (makes you look taller). You can save money by making your
'grand entryway' on the outside wall. Plus it gives you an excuse to
biuld a grand marble staircase.
Sanctuarys / Studies
Everyone should get to design a room that they spend most of their
time in. Some characters may just stay in their rooms and study.
Others may spend all their time in the atomic lab, or in the garden or
just watching T.V. I like sanctuarys because the PCs know what door to
knock on to find their collegues. (Basicly I got tired of hearing the
following)
Atomic man: Computer?
Computer: Yes?
Atomic man: Where is Calistro?
Computer: One moment please
GM: (to Calisto's player) Well?
Calistro's player: (to GM) He's in the level four library.
Computer: Calistro is currently in, level four library.
Atomic man: (I go to the level four library)
GM: (nods)
Atomic man: Calestro? There's something you should see.
If everyone has a sanctuary then it's roleplayed like this:
Atomic man: (I quietly enter the library) Calestro? There's something
you should see.
Prisons and vaults can come in handy for storing dangerous stuff.
A war room (meeting room with big TV and scary lighting) is always fun
to have for those tense "I'm in command here" role playing sessions.
The war room is even more important if it is hooked up to a
(clairvoiant) spy satilite. It might even be wired into a database
(postcognition).
Interogation room. Get Telepathy Based on con (plus some other stuff
in the book) and voila! Truth serium! It's a great way to extract
information with out having to threaten death and dismemberment.
If the group is a public institution (i..e. the base isn't hidden) you
should get some receptionists and guards, perhaps even a side kick or
someone to protect the base. It's also nice if there are some research
assistants that watch the news for leads and clues.
Guards are nice, either robot, human, animal, whatever.
One last thing. don't forget the kitchen! 8p
____----------____
Kenji Ulstein http://weber.u.washington.edu/~kenhar
A knot is never "nearly right"; it is either exactly right
or it is hopelessly wrong...
-Clifford W. Ashley
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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Game hopping
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 13:56:27 -0400 (EDT)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
[snip]
First of all, nice question, but it was a bit long. :-) I would assume
that if you are asking someone to GM, they should run whatever game they
are interested in. Anything else is just asking for a short-lived game.
So if you convince the Star Wars person to run a game, be curteous and let
him run a Star Wars game.
> I realize that game-hopping may not be such a problem with the people on
> this list, since it seems that many of you are "Hero-only" gamers who adapt
> different genres to the Hero rules. Still, I think you might have a
> similar "genre-hopping" problem with players all wanting to try different
> genres within the Hero system.
Actually, I play AD&D more often then HERO because that's what the people
in my group like. I've introduced them to Fantasy HERO (no interest in
Supers) and they were okay with it, but it did not capture their interest
any better than games I've run in AD&D. (Of course, we use a lot of
combat variances under AD&D: miniatures, individual initiative, segmented
movement, etc. So it's not strict AD&D.) The way we handle games is we
have 4 GMs who run their game for 4 weeks and then switch to the next
game. Each game has its own characters and feel. One is 5th level,
another is 7-8th level, another is 14+ level and my game is 1st level. I
also sub in my FH game when it is convenient. We like the consistency of
playing month to month. The only important thing to make sure the game
ends in a good story place so that we don't have to remember too much
about the game after 3 months not playing it.
Joe
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Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 13:45:24 -0500 (CDT)
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net>
Subject: Re: bases
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 09:53 AM 6/12/98 -0400, you wrote:
>> In my current campaign, my PC's have a base. They have been trying
>> to come up
>> with ideas on how to spend the points for the base. Any suggestions for
them?
>>
>> Base presently has the following:
>> An AI
>> Entangle
>> Mechanics lab
>> Physics lab
>> and a Disguise skill
>> Also has a few vehicles here and there.
>
>Have they drawn a floor plan for the base? I find that helps me discover
>what's missing. The characters can wander through the base thinking about
>what they would use the base for and determine what they have forgotten.
>
> Joe
>
The character that ownes the base has been drawing it up over the past
few weeks. He has been taking his time with it, but knows what he wants.
Fun thing is that he has a nice amount of unused space if I remember right.
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Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 14:11:15 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
To: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Feedback on power set wanted
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> 120 Regeneration: 12 BODY/Turn
>
> (Using the optional Regen suggeston in the HSR, the Wu gets one BODY back
> per *segment*. Note: in this game, Regen *cannot* regrow a lost limb.)
You might consider stealing from Fuzion - it's Regen power has both a
'regenerate lost limbs' and 'regenerate from death' option.
For 'regenerate lost limbs' you might also ponder Extra Limbs, Variable
SFX, trigger: when limb is lost, only to replace lost limb. In
conjunction with the BODY regen, this should handle the 'arm getting
chopped off/growing back' thing fairly well.
I don't remember if the Wu had the ability to control their severed limbs
- it seems possible/likely but I honestly don't recall. You might want to
look into this possibility as well.
J
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
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Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:16:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Feedback on power set wanted
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Dr. Nuncheon wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>
> > 120 Regeneration: 12 BODY/Turn
> >
> > (Using the optional Regen suggeston in the HSR, the Wu gets one BODY back
> > per *segment*. Note: in this game, Regen *cannot* regrow a lost limb.)
>
> You might consider stealing from Fuzion - it's Regen power has both a
> 'regenerate lost limbs' and 'regenerate from death' option.
I'd rather stay away from using Fuzion powers. I'm going to be posting
this on my site (actually, parts are already up) and I want it to be a
'vanilla' as possible.
> For 'regenerate lost limbs' you might also ponder Extra Limbs, Variable
> SFX, trigger: when limb is lost, only to replace lost limb. In
> conjunction with the BODY regen, this should handle the 'arm getting
> chopped off/growing back' thing fairly well.
Hmm... that sounds faintly abusive and/or illegal. This also dosn't give
any BODY back, which is what the Aid does as well.
> I don't remember if the Wu had the ability to control their severed limbs
> - it seems possible/likely but I honestly don't recall. You might want to
> look into this possibility as well.
They can, which brings up the next question... who would you defince
*that* ability? Indirect TK?
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
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Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:45:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: New topic: Teleportation & Usable Against Others
To: "David W. Salmon" <dwsalmon@earthlink.net>
Cc: Champions News Group <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
David W. Salmon writes:
> SFX: The ability to teleport someone/something to somewhere. i.e. Tport
> someone off of a bridge so they plummet to the water, or even off of a
> roof. Tport someone straight up that cannot fly. Tport a crate over
> someones head. How many more ex's would you like? (no I'm not being
> sarcastic at all).
>
> Side Note: Would any of you GM's allow someone with Tport UAO to Tport
> someone into a solid object so they take damage according to that
> accidental Tport table in the "Book". You know the one I'm referring to?
>
> Hope this helps clarify things more ...
I am increasingly fond of removing the 'usable against others' power entirely
-- use another power. In many cases this will be transform.
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Feedback on power set wanted
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:50:38 -0700
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Nuncheon wrote:
> > For 'regenerate lost limbs' you might also ponder Extra Limbs, Variable
> > SFX, trigger: when limb is lost, only to replace lost limb. In
> > conjunction with the BODY regen, this should handle the 'arm getting
> > chopped off/growing back' thing fairly well.
>
Mike Surbrook replied:
>Hmm... that sounds faintly abusive and/or illegal. This also doesn't give
>any BODY back, which is what the Aid does as well.
With all the Regeneration you've given, why would you need an extra BODY
aid? And I think the construction is perfectly reasonable, but then, I've
already done something similar. Check http://www.haymaker.org/haym07c.html
for lots of Extra Limbs tricks.
Nuncheon wrote:
> > I don't remember if the Wu had the ability to control their severed
> limbs
> > - it seems possible/likely but I honestly don't recall. You might want
> to
> > look into this possibility as well.
>
Mike Surbrook asked:
>They can, which brings up the next question... who would you define
>*that* ability? Indirect TK?
That's how I do it, mostly. Fully Indirect TK (with the Feedback -1
limitation) and Fully Indirect Stretching. Also, 75% Damage Reduction, only
when enough BODY is taken to sever a limb (-2). The special effect is that
the limb detaches before getting severed, so it doesn't hurt. Any attack
powerful enough to cut off a limb just knock it off harmlessly instead.
Another power trick is Desolid, not versus STUN-only attacks. By willfully
dispersing his entire body, any attacks which do even 1 BODY pass harmlessly
though Jigsaw's body with a splash.
Dave Mattingly
http://www.hamaker.org
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Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:58:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: New topic: Teleportation & Usable Against Others
To: "David W. Salmon" <dwsalmon@earthlink.net>
Cc: Champions News Group <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
David W. Salmon writes:
> How would you model this as Transform ?? Can transform be used to "move X
> to Y" ??? Now I'm confused ...
Well...transform can do anything. ;) There's no terribly good way to model
usable against others teleport, though -- the point cost for a UAO power rarely
has much to do with its utility, and transform is particularly clunky for
instant effects.
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Reply-To: <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Shooting Blind with No Range Mod Powers
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 13:15:31 -0700
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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
>
> At 12:35 PM 6/10/98 -0700, Filksinger wrote:
> > From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
> >> Yes, it's a powerful effect, but that is how the Game Mechanic works.
> >
> >Yes, at this time the Game Mechanic says that any ranged power will hit
any
> >target in range with only normal range modifiers and a 0 OCV when you
> >cannot detect the target at all. While this is excessively ridiculous in
> >the case of extreme range NRP, it is silly with normal powers, as well.
If
> >I don't have _any_ idea where the target is, I shouldn't be able to hit
> >except by great coincidence, but under the present rules I can hit with
a 0
> >OCV. That's too easy.
>
> This is my last comment on this thread, it's a little silly now.
Fair enough. I am almost ready to create a mechanic for this, which will
either be ignored, agreed is a good mechanic, or shot down. However, that
is really another debate.
> All that
> I am arguing is if you fire randomly in the dark, you might hit
something.
> The character with the NRP power might do the same thing.
Yes. That is one of the things I want to preserve.
>0 OCV is not too
> easy. 0 OCV in a superhero game is not going to hit your average 7 DCV
> target (1 in 50). But I see no reason not to give a Hero a chance.
0 OCV isn't too easy in many situations. However, if I am teleported to a
hill in some far off place, blindfolded, given a NRP EB with a 5 mile
range, and told, "Shoot the statue", I think that hitting nearly two-thirds
of the time when the statue is anywhere within 5 miles is too much,
especially as it is equally hard for me and for the world's greatest
marksman.
> >> > > I think your problem with this is NRP. NRP makes no sense. "The
> >farther
> >> > > away something is the more likely you are to hit" is just common
> >sense.
> >> > Uh, maybe I'm missing something here. Was this a typo?
> >> What?
> >You said that things that are farther away are easier to hit, and that
this
> >was common sense. I always thought that things that were farther away
were
> >harder to hit, myself.
> Ooops.
:)
<snip>
>
> I'm arguing it should work but since that's the way it's written, that's
> what you are stuck with, officially.
True. Unfortunately, it is probably too late for a new rule to be in HSR
5th Ed.
<snip>
> >You are suggesting that NRP should never be more than a massive
reduction
> >in range modifiers, if I understand you, or levels to counteract RMods.
I
> >could agree with this. That does eliminate the problem of NRP while
blind,
> >as the bonus granted by those levels will be negated when blind, leaving
> >you with normal range modifiers.
>
> That might be a valid interpretation. Until you articulated it, I wasn't
> aware that that was what I was suggesting. But now I'll say I was. :-)
:)
<snip>
<snip>
> >He might. However, the example I started with was _he has no idea where
the
> >target is_. Under the present rules, he still gets a 0 OCV.
>
> What would you prefer? -4 OCV, -10 OCV, someone is still going to hit
> randomly from a chance richochet or something. I wouldn't want to lose
> that chance. I like semi-cinematic games.
I want that chance, too. I am trying to visualize a mechanic with set rolls
that need to be made and set penalties that vary according to range.
<snip>
> So then NRP is +1/2 for dubious benefit. You still need to spend more
> points for the power. At that point you should give it its own DEX and
> then the character can perform some other action in the phase. :-)
Actually, NRP has a clear benefit. Here's a mechanic that should work,
though you might wish to forbid it; a magical bow that allows the user to
hit a target as if he were only 5 ft away.
Given this, he can hit a man at 100 yards, or 1000, if the bow will fire
that distance, as easily as if he were in the next hex. NRP. That's a fair
benefit. However, it comes with baggage under the present rules that I
would like to do away with.
I should be posting something soon.
Filksinger
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: New topic: Teleportation & Usable Against Others
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Date: 12 Jun 1998 16:34:36 -0400
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Anthony Jackson writes:
> Well...transform can do anything. ;) There's no terribly good way to
> model usable against others teleport, though
Telekenesis, maybe NND.
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Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:43:29 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Feedback on power set wanted
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Dr. Nuncheon wrote:
>
> > For 'regenerate lost limbs' you might also ponder Extra Limbs, Variable
> > SFX, trigger: when limb is lost, only to replace lost limb. In
> > conjunction with the BODY regen, this should handle the 'arm getting
> > chopped off/growing back' thing fairly well.
>
> Hmm... that sounds faintly abusive and/or illegal. This also dosn't give
> any BODY back, which is what the Aid does as well.
Well, it /is/ a bit unusual, yes. The regaining of the BODY is of course
done via the (rather significant) Regeneration power - if you like, add on
the minor limit 'limb unusable until BODY damage is healed'.
As to whether it's abusive - well, the HERO mechanics for chopping bits
off are pretty sketchy, and it's unclear whether regeneration would/should
heal those types of wounds anyway.
I'll agree it seems very cheap, though, which is why I'd much prefer the
Fuzion regen options (and I hope they're in Hero5...)
Here's an idea: xd6 cumulative Transform, from Wu with missing limb to Wu
with full complement of limbs. Season with advantages and limitations to
taste - I'd suggest 0 End Persistent Uncontrolled.
> > I don't remember if the Wu had the ability to control their severed limbs
> > - it seems possible/likely but I honestly don't recall. You might want to
> > look into this possibility as well.
>
> They can, which brings up the next question... who would you defince
> *that* ability? Indirect TK?
Probably I'd use Indirect Stretching, since the limbs are still 'part' of
the character. Another possibility is Indirect TK, OIF Severed Limb,
since attacks on the severed limb shouldn't hurt the Wu directly.
J
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj
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Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 13:45:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: New topic: Teleportation & Usable Against Others
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Stainless Steel Rat writes:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Anthony Jackson writes:
>
> > Well...transform can do anything. ;) There's no terribly good way to
> > model usable against others teleport, though
>
> Telekenesis, maybe NND.
Indirect if anything. Telekinesis cannot normally move objects through walls.
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Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:14:13 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: New topic: Teleportation & Usable Against Others
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On 12 Jun 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> Anthony Jackson writes:
>
> > Well...transform can do anything. ;) There's no terribly good way to
> > model usable against others teleport, though
>
> Telekenesis, maybe NND.
OK, I'll bite. How?
Telekinesis lets you basically exert strength at range.
Teleport UAO lets you take something from /here/ and put it /there/
without it occupying the intervening space.
I could see TK being used instead of Flight, Usable Against Others, but I
can't see how it would let you do any of the major characteristics such as
passing through barriers, etc.
J
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj
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Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:16:43 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions News Group <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: New topic: Teleportation & Usable Against Others
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> SFX: The ability to teleport someone/something to somewhere. i.e. Tport
> someone off of a bridge so they plummet to the water, or even off of a roof.
> Tport someone straight up that cannot fly. Tport a crate over someones head.
> How many more ex's would you like? (no I'm not being sarcastic at all).
I'm not sure about the crate over someone's head. That may be
better done with an indirect EB. The others are valid.
> Side Note: Would any of you GM's allow someone with Tport UAO to Tport
> someone into a solid object so they take damage according to that accidental
> Tport table in the "Book". You know the one I'm referring to?
No! This is way unbalanced. If this is desired, take the T-Port
UAO with a linked (dive for cover) attack.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:49:12 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net
To: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net>
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: bases
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Palace of Dwarves wrote:
> In my current campaign, my PC's have a base. They have been trying
> to come up
> with ideas on how to spend the points for the base. Any suggestions for them?
>
> Base presently has the following:
> An AI
> Entangle
> Mechanics lab
> Physics lab
> and a Disguise skill
> Also has a few vehicles here and there.
How about purchasing agents to protect the base
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From: "David W. Salmon" <dwsalmon@earthlink.net>
To: "Champions News Group" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: New topic: Teleportation & Usable Against Others
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:38:47 -0700
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SFX: The ability to teleport someone/something to somewhere. i.e. Tport
someone off of a bridge so they plummet to the water, or even off of a roof.
Tport someone straight up that cannot fly. Tport a crate over someones head.
How many more ex's would you like? (no I'm not being sarcastic at all).
Side Note: Would any of you GM's allow someone with Tport UAO to Tport
someone into a solid object so they take damage according to that accidental
Tport table in the "Book". You know the one I'm referring to?
Hope this helps clarify things more ...
-----Original Message-----
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: David W. Salmon <dwsalmon@earthlink.net>
Date: Friday, June 12, 1998 12:17 PM
Subject: Re: New topic: Teleportation & Usable Against Others
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>David W Salmon writes:
>
>> Why?? Well ..................
>
>Back up.
>
>Opinion: you have yet to say anything about the special effects of the
>power in question. Without SFX this is all moot.
>
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>--
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at.
>
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: New topic: Teleportation & Usable Against Others
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Date: 12 Jun 1998 18:42:42 -0400
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Nuncheon writes:
> Telekinesis lets you basically exert strength at range.
> Teleport UAO lets you take something from /here/ and put it /there/
> without it occupying the intervening space.
Telekenesis lets you move something from here and move it there. It
depends on the special effects involved.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: New topic: Teleportation & Usable Against Others
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David W Salmon writes:
> SFX: The ability to teleport someone/something to somewhere. i.e. Tport
> someone off of a bridge so they plummet to the water, or even off of a
> roof. Tport someone straight up that cannot fly. Tport a crate over
> someones head. How many more ex's would you like? (no I'm not being
> sarcastic at all).
Umm... these aren't special effects, they are uses of a power, effects
rather than special effects. Anyway, the dropped crate is an Indirect
Energy Blast, while the others might be TK with some advantages and
limitations. It depends on the special effects of the ability.
> Side Note: Would any of you GM's allow someone with Tport UAO to Tport
> someone into a solid object so they take damage according to that
> accidental Tport table in the "Book". You know the one I'm referring to?
Hell! no. You want to do damage, buy a power that does damage.
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From: "David W. Salmon" <dwsalmon@earthlink.net>
To: "Champions News Group" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: New topic: Teleportation & Usable Against Others
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:58:00 -0700
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How would you model this as Transform ?? Can transform be used to "move X to
Y" ??? Now I'm confused ...
-----Original Message-----
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
To: David W. Salmon <dwsalmon@earthlink.net>
Cc: Champions News Group <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Friday, June 12, 1998 12:51 PM
Subject: Re: New topic: Teleportation & Usable Against Others
>David W. Salmon writes:
>> SFX: The ability to teleport someone/something to somewhere. i.e. Tport
>> someone off of a bridge so they plummet to the water, or even off of a
>> roof. Tport someone straight up that cannot fly. Tport a crate over
>> someones head. How many more ex's would you like? (no I'm not being
>> sarcastic at all).
>>
>> Side Note: Would any of you GM's allow someone with Tport UAO to Tport
>> someone into a solid object so they take damage according to that
>> accidental Tport table in the "Book". You know the one I'm referring to?
>>
>> Hope this helps clarify things more ...
>
>I am increasingly fond of removing the 'usable against others' power
entirely
>-- use another power. In many cases this will be transform.
>
>
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Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 09:35:38 +1000
To: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
From: Mad Hamish <h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: RPG "collectors"
Cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 10:46 AM 6/10/98 -0400, David Stallard wrote:
>
>I've realized within the last year that I'm an "RPG collector". Not to say
>that I buy RPGs for monetary value (do RPGs ever increase in value?)
Some do, you might want to see what price Harlequin as Shadowrun module
gets. Or Deities & Demigods the first printing with Cthulu mythos.
> or that I hunt down out-of-print games....
I will if they really interest me.
> What I mean is, I will buy RPGs
>that interest me solely to read about the settings, even if I am almost
>certain that my current group will have no interest in playing that game.
>Sometimes, I don't even read the rules sections of these RPGs...I just read
>about setting descriptions (which includes character types, vehicle
>descriptions, and so forth).
Generally I tend to read the whole book, in part because I find it's easier
to see where the designers are coming from when you understand the
mechanics a bit.
> Games I've picked up recently which would fit
>in this category: Fading Suns, Cyberpunk 2020, Ars Magica, and my latest
>purchase, Deadlands. There are others I have my eye on: Legend of the
>Five Rings, Waste World, and Heavy Gear, just to name a few. Of course, I
>only pick up games that I would like to play, so I am constantly struggling
>over whether to stick with the current game or switch to another.
>
>Is anyone else out there guilty of this, or do you pretty much stick with
>one system (presumably Hero, seeing as you're on this list) and spend your
>available resources buying supplements for that system?
There have been very few games I've bought that I haven't at least been
considering playing, but considering the number of systems I have (D&D,
AD&D, Earthdawn, Shadowrun, MSH, DCH, Ars Magica, World Of Darkness,
Rolemaster, MERP, Amber, Hyborean, Elric, Warhammer frp, ...)
_Maybe_ if I had discovered Hero earlier than I did (I only started playing
it this year) I would have been more loyal to one system but when you come
into roleplaying through D&D you can't really use the same system for other
genres so if I wanted to play anything else I had to buy another system.
> So far I have been
>able to restrain my "habit" by only buying the basic rulebooks...however,
>usually the supplements offer much more in the way of setting information
>than the basic rulebook does, so I have been tempted (especially with
>Fading Suns supplements...Deadlands looks like it will be the same).
>
>Anyway, I guess I'm just looking to see if most roleplayers like to horde
>different systems, or if I'm somewhat unusual in this respect. When I show
>a new RPG to my gaming group, they just shake their heads sadly as if to
>say that they see my addiction but don't know what to do about it. -grin-
****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************
Mad Hamish
Hamish Laws
h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au
h_laws@tassie.net.au
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Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 09:53:05 +1000
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Mad Hamish <h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Superhero 101
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>At 09:51 AM 6/9/1998 -0500, Curt Hicks wrote:
>>
>>
>>Suppose you are a long established, successful superhero.
>>For whatever reason, you're taking on an apprentice.
>>What skills and training do you start for your apprentice ?
>>What are the basic and less basic things that superheroes need
>>to know or be able to do ?
>
I think a lot of that depends on the type of hero you are and the powers
they have.
A speedster needs different training to a mentalist or a martial artist.
****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************
Mad Hamish
Hamish Laws
h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au
h_laws@tassie.net.au
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Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 18:19:40 -0700
To: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Hunted... Why?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Here's an exercise in thought. (Maybe it'll help Steve when he comes to
the appropriate part of the Fifth Edition Rulebook, too!)
What are some of the reasons you can think of that a character might
have the Hunted Disadvantage? These are the ones I can come up with:
- Bigotry. The character is a member of some demographic group (black,
mutant, alien, mentalist, or whatever) that the Hunter doesn't like.
- Frankenstein Syndrome. The character once built the Hunter, or vice
versa, but the creation has turned against the creator.
- Law Enforcement. The character is wanted as a criminal (whether he
actually committed the crime or not), and law enforcement wants him.
- Old Enemy. The Hunter is a criminal whom the character has repeatedly
foiled, and wants revenge.
- Personal History. The character might be a former member of organized
crime, or otherwise have a long-standing reason that the Hunter hates the
character.
- Professional Rivalries Overdone. The Hunter wants to be better than
the character, and is willing to go to lengths that even outstrip a
standard Rivalry.
- Recruitment By Force. The Hunter is an organization that wants to
recruit the character, whether he wants to join or not.
- Stolen Equipment. The character stole something (probably something
technological or magical) from the Hunter, who wants it back.
- Technology Envy. The stuff that the character has is better than the
stuff that the Hunter has, and the Hunter doesn't like that one bit.
Anyone have other ideas, or bits drawn from published products?
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 21:31:36 -0400
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: bases
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 01:45 PM 6/12/98 -0500, Palace of Dwarves wrote:
>At 09:53 AM 6/12/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>> In my current campaign, my PC's have a base. They have been
trying
>>> to come up
>>> with ideas on how to spend the points for the base. Any suggestions for
>them?
>>>
>>> Base presently has the following:
>>> An AI
>>> Entangle
BTW, What do you mean by Entangle? Long winding corridors? A hedge maze?
Joe
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Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 01:36:18 +0000
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
To: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Hunted... Why?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> Here's an exercise in thought. (Maybe it'll help Steve when he comes to
> the appropriate part of the Fifth Edition Rulebook, too!)
> What are some of the reasons you can think of that a character might
> have the Hunted Disadvantage? These are the ones I can come up with:
> Anyone have other ideas, or bits drawn from published products?
Family: I had one character hunted by his nephew for the inheritance. I'd
become
immortal, so he would of had to wait a long time for natural causes.
Other family possibilities: The white sheep of the family. This is similar
to
the frankenstein version. Dad raises kid to be crime boss. Kid wants to do
good instead.
-Mark
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Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 21:05:20 -0500
To: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Hunted... Why?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
All good ideas, and it does seem to cover it pretty well, though several of
them can also be turned around. In some cases a bias was shown toward the
character being a hero -- villains can have Hunteds, too -- in other cases
the reversal had nothing to do with a hero/villain assumption:
- Bigotry. The character is a member of some demographic group (black,
mutant, alien, mentalist, or whatever) that the Hunter doesn't like.
+ Object of Worship. One or more fanatical devotees have decided the
character is the reincarnation of Buddha, or some similarly enlightened
soul. The character has never done anything to encourage this view, and
desperately wishes they'd all just go and follow someone else.
> - Frankenstein Syndrome. The character once built the Hunter, or vice
>versa, but the creation has turned against the creator.
Or the character is the monster, who's escaped, and is now hunted by its
creator.
> - Old Enemy. The Hunter is a criminal whom the character has repeatedly
>foiled, and wants revenge.
Or the Hunter is a hero by whom the [villain] character has been repeatedly
foiled, and the lousy do-gooder just -- won't -- go -- away!
> - Personal History. The character might be a former member of organized
>crime, or otherwise have a long-standing reason that the Hunter hates the
>character.
Or the character is a former agent of law enforcement, and organized crime
is still after him for past inconveniences he dealt them, especially now
that he doesn't have the protection of his fellow officers.
> - Recruitment By Force. The Hunter is an organization that wants to
>recruit the character, whether he wants to join or not.
The hunter is a wannabe member of an organization that hasn't seen fit to
recruit him, but he dogs their every move, itching to prove himself and be
admitted. This Hunter would almost certainly be played for laughs.
> - Stolen Equipment. The character stole something (probably something
>technological or magical) from the Hunter, who wants it back.
Okay, I admit this is unlikely: the Hunter stole something from the
character, and desperately wants to return it -- a cursed item, or the kid
from "The Ransom of Red Chief"?
Damon
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
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Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 23:22:40 -0400
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: New topic: Teleportation & Usable Against Others
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 09:05 PM 6/12/98 -0700, David W. Salmon wrote:
>Okay, I can buy the "off the bridge" thing as TK and the crate thing as
>indirect EB. No arguments there. But can someone please explain how I would
>use TK (as suggested) to get someone, lets say, a normal, from inside a 10
>inch thick glass room with no exits to outside the room before their air
>runs out. I can only see (and maybe I have blinders on) Tport with UAO to do
>this because of the intervening barrier. Please no silly suggestions like
>melt your way thru or break the glass. Please stick with the topic of Tport
>with UAO vs. other power constructs. Thanks ... looking forward to your
>responses.
Fully Indirect, Ranged?
The indirect EB, and TK would be in the multipower next to TPort, UAO, etc.
It is very power, you don't want it to cost a lot, but nonetheless, it does.
Joe
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Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Hunted... Why?
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-3,9-11,13-15,17-19
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 23:59:03 EDT
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>> - Stolen Equipment. The character stole something (probably
something
>>technological or magical) from the Hunter, who wants it back.
I ran a version of this with an alien hero of mine -- she built several
gadgets using her native technology when she decided to take up the hero
biz, but the government is absolutely convinced that the only way this
new super could have gotten the blueprints was by breaking into a
top-secret government lab (it's a long story, but the feds had samples of
that race's tech and were studying it).
>Okay, I admit this is unlikely: the Hunter stole something from the
>character, and desperately wants to return it -- a cursed item, or the
kid
>from "The Ransom of Red Chief"?
Or, the Hunter is convinced that the character can't keep <insert name of
really cool gadget/magic item> safe, and is going to "help".
Leah
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From: "David W. Salmon" <dwsalmon@earthlink.net>
To: "Champions News Group" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: New topic: Teleportation & Usable Against Others
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 21:05:25 -0700
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Okay, I can buy the "off the bridge" thing as TK and the crate thing as
indirect EB. No arguments there. But can someone please explain how I would
use TK (as suggested) to get someone, lets say, a normal, from inside a 10
inch thick glass room with no exits to outside the room before their air
runs out. I can only see (and maybe I have blinders on) Tport with UAO to do
this because of the intervening barrier. Please no silly suggestions like
melt your way thru or break the glass. Please stick with the topic of Tport
with UAO vs. other power constructs. Thanks ... looking forward to your
responses.
Dave
P.S. in case I haven't made the special effect clear yet let me try again.
The "hero" is basically linked to another dimension thru "a freak scientific
accident involving nuclear power and attempts at achieving warp speed". Thru
his link he can cause a person or an object to be temporarily pulled into
another dimension and make them re-appear at another place. He can do this
at range and he can also tport himself this way as well. The transfer is
instantaneous and the target may feel a slight tingling sensation and a
brief flash of cold (no game affects to the target) when it happens. Is that
what was being sought after as the SFX of the power?
-----Original Message-----
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Friday, June 12, 1998 3:47 PM
Subject: Re: New topic: Teleportation & Usable Against Others
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>David W Salmon writes:
>
>> SFX: The ability to teleport someone/something to somewhere. i.e. Tport
>> someone off of a bridge so they plummet to the water, or even off of a
>> roof. Tport someone straight up that cannot fly. Tport a crate over
>> someones head. How many more ex's would you like? (no I'm not being
>> sarcastic at all).
>
>Umm... these aren't special effects, they are uses of a power, effects
>rather than special effects. Anyway, the dropped crate is an Indirect
>Energy Blast, while the others might be TK with some advantages and
>limitations. It depends on the special effects of the ability.
>
>> Side Note: Would any of you GM's allow someone with Tport UAO to Tport
>> someone into a solid object so they take damage according to that
>> accidental Tport table in the "Book". You know the one I'm referring to?
>
>Hell! no. You want to do damage, buy a power that does damage.
>
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>--
>Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
>PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
> \
>
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Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 21:14:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dale Ward <daleaward@rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: bases
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Greetings,
---"K. Ulstein" wrote:
>
> On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Palace of Dwarves wrote:
> >
> > In my current campaign, my PC's have a base. They have been trying
> >to come up
> >with ideas on how to spend the points for the base. Any suggestions for
them?
[SNIP]
> One last thing. don't forget the kitchen! 8p
I would also suggest ample sanitary facilities, segregated by gender and
species as applicable.
You have no idea what a pain it is to rearrange your superhero costume
when you have a line of impatient teammates banging on the bathroom door!
"Hey, Hulk! Don't forget to light a match, dude!"
Dale A. Ward
[Did Somebody Say *BLOW UP* McDonald's?]
_________________________________________________________
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Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 21:47:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dale Ward <daleaward@rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: New topic: Teleportation & Usable Against Others
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Greetings,
---"Robert A. West" wrote:
>
> Dale Ward wrote:
> >
> > ---"Robert A. West" wrote:[in reply to Filksinger]
>
[SNIP]
> Your reasoning does not apply to this case.
>
> You are correct that, if an advantage and an intrinsic add-on have
> exactly the same effect, and were both usable, then one of them
> is redundant. This is explicitly resolved in the case of Increased
> Maximum Range. It is implicitly resolved in the case of Area Effect,
> because it is almost never profitable to use the Advantage on a power
> that already has a way to increase its radius.
>
> In this case, the Advantage and the intrinsic add-on have different
> effects, as can be seen from the following examples, all of which are
> valid powers.
>
> a) 20 5" Teleportation x4 mass
> b) 40 5" Teleportation x4 mass UAO(+1)
> c) 45 5" Teleportation x4 mass UAO(+1 1/4)
> d) 50 5" Teleportation x4 mass UAO(+1 1/2)
>
[SNIP]
I now realize where I went wrong in my logic, Robert. Even though the
discussion concerns the "Usable AGAINST Others" Advantage, I completely
ignored the possibility that the target might be unwilling AND that the PC
might not want to go along for the ride!
I blame long hours and lack of sleep.
Plus the fact that I haven't seen my HSR book in several years and am
doing this all from a somewhat sieve-like memory.
Thanks for explaining so patiently.
Dale A. Ward
[Did Somebody Say *BLOW UP* McDonald's?]
_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
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Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 21:59:35 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Organization: Satan's Children
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Hunted... Why?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Eric Chaves wrote:
> How about Fan Worship. Hunter is obsesivly stalking the hero.
"Oh, no! it's ... it's FANBOY! Run! Run for your sanity!"
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
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Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 22:06:25 -0700
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com>
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com
Organization: None
To: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net>
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: bases
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Palace of Dwarves wrote:
> In my current campaign, my PC's have a base. They have been trying
> to come up
> with ideas on how to spend the points for the base. Any suggestions for them?
>
> Base presently has the following:
> An AI
> Entangle
> Mechanics lab
> Physics lab
> and a Disguise skill
> Also has a few vehicles here and there.
Trophy room.
Danger Room.
Garage.
Spare Bedrooms/Guestsrooms.
I really like the Garden Idea.
Rec Room.
Definately a meeting room or two...
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 00:20:26 -0500
Subject: Re: CHAR: Dr. Manhattan
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-27
From: dwtoomey@juno.com (David W Toomey)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Sat, 13 Jun 1998 18:49:52 -0300 (ADT) Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
writes:
>On Sat, 13 Jun 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>
> > > DR. MANHATTAN
>> > > (Jon Osterman)
>> > >
>> > > Val CHA Cost Roll Notes
>> > > 75 STR 65 24- 800 tons; 15d6
>> >
>> > I don't know that he ever displays great physical strength, except
>when
>> > he's grown to immense size. (But then, why would he need to?)
>>
>> Actually he does. In Chapter 1, when Rorschach is in his lab, we
>see him
>> casually lift some immense machine while Rorschach and Silk Spectre
>
>So he does. Seems a bit out of character, though.
Perhaps he's put his VPP on 75 Str TK, no range, Invis Power Effects?
I know, thats not what his DC writeup says, but they got it wrong, IMHO.
David W Toomey
dwtoomey@juno.com
_____________________________________________________________________
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Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 21:39:53 -0800
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Eric Chaves <rambler@sowest.net>
Subject: Re: Hunted... Why?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> Here's an exercise in thought. (Maybe it'll help Steve when he comes to
>the appropriate part of the Fifth Edition Rulebook, too!)
> What are some of the reasons you can think of that a character might
>have the Hunted Disadvantage? These are the ones I can come up with:
How about Fan Worship. Hunter is obsesivly stalking the hero.
Geek Code
****************************************************************************
GCS d++ H s:+ !g !p au+ a- w++ v++ C++++ UL+ P? L+ 3- E? N+++ K- W--- M++ !V
po--- Y+ t++ 5 j R++ G'' tv++ b++ D++ B--- e- u** h+ f+ r n+ y**
****************************************************************************
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Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 06:57:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: RPG "collectors"
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Sat, 13 Jun 1998, Mad Hamish wrote:
> At 10:46 AM 6/10/98 -0400, David Stallard wrote:
> >
> >I've realized within the last year that I'm an "RPG collector". Not to say
> >that I buy RPGs for monetary value (do RPGs ever increase in value?)
>
> Some do, you might want to see what price Harlequin as Shadowrun module
> gets. Or Deities & Demigods the first printing with Cthulu mythos.
Heh. I got 75$ for mine! It was in near mint condition too. And then I
found a copy (with out the Cthulu mythos( at the local librabry for 50
cents!
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 07:04:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
X-Sender: susano@access4.digex.net
Reply-To: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Feedback on power set wanted
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Dave Mattingly wrote:
> Nuncheon wrote:
> > > For 'regenerate lost limbs' you might also ponder Extra Limbs, Variable
> > > SFX, trigger: when limb is lost, only to replace lost limb. In
> > > conjunction with the BODY regen, this should handle the 'arm getting
> > > chopped off/growing back' thing fairly well.
> Mike Surbrook replied:
> >Hmm... that sounds faintly abusive and/or illegal. This also doesn't give
> >any BODY back, which is what the Aid does as well.
>
> With all the Regeneration you've given, why would you need an extra BODY
> aid? And I think the construction is perfectly reasonable, but then, I've
> already done something similar. Check http://www.haymaker.org/haym07c.html
> for lots of Extra Limbs tricks.
Because the Wu can regenerate severe trauma but usually can't regrow a
lost limb *that* fast. Usually the Wu has to find his lost limb and stick
it back on before it will reattach. Also, after the huge argument (of
sorts) over Regen affecting lost limbs, I decided to go with 'no, Regen
does not grow back lost limbs'.
Also, the Extra limbs trick sounds like using one power to duplicate the
effects of another.
> Nuncheon wrote:
> > > I don't remember if the Wu had the ability to control their severed
> > limbs
> > > - it seems possible/likely but I honestly don't recall. You might want
> > to
> > > look into this possibility as well.
> >
> Mike Surbrook asked:
> >They can, which brings up the next question... who would you define
> >*that* ability? Indirect TK?
>
> That's how I do it, mostly. Fully Indirect TK (with the Feedback -1
> limitation) and Fully Indirect Stretching. Also, 75% Damage Reduction, only
> when enough BODY is taken to sever a limb (-2). The special effect is that
> the limb detaches before getting severed, so it doesn't hurt. Any attack
> powerful enough to cut off a limb just knock it off harmlessly instead.
> Another power trick is Desolid, not versus STUN-only attacks. By willfully
> dispersing his entire body, any attacks which do even 1 BODY pass harmlessly
> though Jigsaw's body with a splash.
Feedback Limitation from where? Forcewall? As to the Damage Reduction,
the Wu still takes damage when the limb is severed.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
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Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 07:08:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Feedback on power set wanted
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Dr. Nuncheon wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> > On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Dr. Nuncheon wrote:
> >
> > > For 'regenerate lost limbs' you might also ponder Extra Limbs, Variable
> > > SFX, trigger: when limb is lost, only to replace lost limb. In
> > > conjunction with the BODY regen, this should handle the 'arm getting
> > > chopped off/growing back' thing fairly well.
> >
> > Hmm... that sounds faintly abusive and/or illegal. This also dosn't give
> > any BODY back, which is what the Aid does as well.
>
> Well, it /is/ a bit unusual, yes. The regaining of the BODY is of course
> done via the (rather significant) Regeneration power - if you like, add on
> the minor limit 'limb unusable until BODY damage is healed'.
>
> As to whether it's abusive - well, the HERO mechanics for chopping bits
> off are pretty sketchy, and it's unclear whether regeneration would/should
> heal those types of wounds anyway.
Right which is why I but the Aid. Actually, I've used variations on Aid
before to simulate this sort of power. Ryoko (Tenchi Muyo) and Piccolo
(Dragonball Z) both have the ability to instantly regrow lost limbs, which
I felt was an application of Aid.
> I'll agree it seems very cheap, though, which is why I'd much prefer the
> Fuzion regen options (and I hope they're in Hero5...)
Steve Long is on the List, may be he'll give us a hint.
> Here's an idea: xd6 cumulative Transform, from Wu with missing limb to Wu
> with full complement of limbs. Season with advantages and limitations to
> taste - I'd suggest 0 End Persistent Uncontrolled.
Sorry, read the last sentance of Transformation Attack: "Transforms cannot
be used by the character to change himself: USe Shapeshift for this."
> > > I don't remember if the Wu had the ability to control their severed limbs
> > > - it seems possible/likely but I honestly don't recall. You might want to
> > > look into this possibility as well.
> >
> > They can, which brings up the next question... who would you defince
> > *that* ability? Indirect TK?
>
> Probably I'd use Indirect Stretching, since the limbs are still 'part' of
> the character. Another possibility is Indirect TK, OIF Severed Limb,
> since attacks on the severed limb shouldn't hurt the Wu directly.
Hey! I like that power! Thanks for the suggestion!
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
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Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 07:15:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Dr. Manhattan
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Trevor Barrie wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>
> > DR. MANHATTAN
> > (Jon Osterman)
> >
> > Val CHA Cost Roll Notes
> > 75 STR 65 24- 800 tons; 15d6
>
> I don't know that he ever displays great physical strength, except when
> he's grown to immense size. (But then, why would he need to?)
Actually he does. In Chapter 1, when Rorschach is in his lab, we see him
casually lift some immense machine while Rorschach and Silk Spectre II
talk.
> > 35 DEX 75 16- OCV: 12 / DCV: 12
> > 40 CON 60 17-
> > 20 BODY 20 13-
>
> Seem kind of high, too. Me, I'd be inclined to make his physical stats
> more normal, but bump his VPP up another hundred or two points.
>
> If you wanted to be really ambitious, you could try to come up with a
> mechanic to represent the fact that his physical body is apparently
> largely irrelevant. (He had it completely annihilated twice, but rebuilt
> it.)
As I said in the text of his write up, the Doctor's stats are based off
ofthe DC Heroes character sheet. Myself, I don't see the really high DEX
(but I can buy the SPD). Dr. Manhattan is very hard to quantify
physically.
> > 50 INT 40 19- PER Roll 19-
>
> Did the accident actually increase his intelligence?
Possibly. But, INT isn't so much a measure of 'smarts' as fast thinking.
He can watch neutrinos at play, he needs a pretty good INT to process that
sort of data.
> > 23 EGO 26 14- ECV: 8
> > 30 PRE 20 15- PRE Attack: 6d6
>
> This may actually be too low.
Hmm... dunno. This is the base Doctor, it doesn't count what happens when
he grows to 60 plus feet high (or melts a tank).
> > 67 Temporal Consciousness: Clairsentience: Sight, Hearing,
> > Precognitive, 0 END (+1/2)
>
> Postcognitive, too, but since it apparently only lets him see what he
> personally experienced (or will experience), Eidetic Memory probably
> covers that aspect. OTOH, I'd add Persistent and Always On.
Hmm... good point. He shoould have that added. I knew I was punching in
the html code a little too soon... ^_^
> Actually, given that he can still be surprised (he just knows he's going
> to be surprised:)), I'd be tempted to just brush off his precognition as
> a special effect... but he does use it to useful effect on occasion, so
> I suppose it needs to be written up.
Yup.
> > 150+ Disadvantages
> > 15 DNPC: Laurel Jane Juspeczyk (aka Silk Spectre II) 14-
> > 20 Distinctive Features: Nude blue human
> > 15 Physical Limitation: All actions are predetermined
>
> I'd write this up as a Psychological Limitation. After all, the only
> difference between Manhattan and everybody else is that he _knows_ his
> actions are predetermined.
Yes, but he can't use an EGO roll to do something *not* predetermined, now
can he?
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
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Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 07:18:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Cpt Metropolis
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Trevor Barrie wrote:
> On Mon, 8 Jun 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>
> > 15 Secret ID: Nelson Gardner; Homosexual
>
> Being homosexual should be good for a Distinctive Features, above and
> beyond the standard Secret ID that most all of the Minuteman have.
How is it a DF? A DF is something most people can spot just by looking at
you. Unless you're a cliche-ridden Hollywood homosexual with a limp-wrist
and a lisp, no one's going to point at you and say "Look! He's gay!".
Hero does need something like GURPS Social Stigma disad (or an expansion
of Secret ID to something like GURPS Secret or DC Heroes 'Dark Secret')
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
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Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 07:47:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: CHAR: Rorschach
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
"Because there is good and evil, and evil must be punished.
Even in the face of Armageddon I shall not compromise on this."
RORSCHACH
(Joseph Walter Kovacs)
Val CHA Cost Roll Notes
20 STR 10 13- 400kg; 4d6
18 DEX 24 13- OCV: 6 / DCV: 6
18 CON 16 13-
12 BODY 4 11-
20 INT 10 13- PER Roll 13-
20 EGO 20 13- ECV: 7
30 PRE 30 15- PRE Attack: 6d6
8 COM -1 11-
10 PD 6 Total: 10 PD
8 ED 4 Total: 8 ED
4 SPD 12 Phases: 3, 6, 9, 12
8 REC 0
36 END 0
30 STUN -1
Total Characteristics Cost: 134
Movement: Running: 6" / 12"
Swimming: 2" / 4"
Cost Powers & Skills
Combat Training:
5 Combat Skill Levels: +1 with HTH
6 Combat Skill Levels: +2 with Martial Arts
Martial Art: Boxing / Dirty Infighting
Maneuver OCV DCV Damage
4 Block +2 +2 Block AbortAbort
4 Cross +0 +2 6d6 Strike
4 Disarm -1 +1 30 STR Disarm
5 Hook/Roundhouse -2 +1 8d6 Strike
5 Jab +1 +3 4d6 Strike
4 Kidney Blow -2 +0 1/2d6 HKA (2DC)
4 Low Blow -1 +1 2d6 NND (1)
Equipment:
22 Grapple Gun Multipower: 45 Point Pool, OAF (-1)
1 u - Grapple and Line: +5 to Climbing Roll
2 u - Grapple: RKA, 2d6, +1 Stun (+1/2), Reduced Penetration (-1/4),
One Charge, Recoverable (-1 1/4)
Background Skills:
2 Contact: Happy Harry's (a bar) 11-
3 Talent: Resistance: +3 to EGO (18- Total)
3 Acrobatics 13-
3 AK: New York 13-
3 Climbing 13-
3 Deduction 13-
3 Interrogation 15-
2 KS: Law 11-
3 KS: Literature 13-
2 KS: Police Procedure 11-
3 KS: Religion and Religious theory 13-
3 Lockpicking 13-
2 PS: Garment Worker 11-
3 Security Systems 13-
3 Stealth 13-
3 Streetwise 15-
1 TF: Hover Bike
111 Total Powers & Skills Cost
245 Total Character Cost
100+ Disadvantages
10 Distinctive Features: Monotone voice and awful smell (C)
15 Hunted: New York Police (MoPow, NCI, LimGeo) 8-
20 Normal Characteristic Maxima
Psychological Limitation:
20 No compromise, not even in the face of Armageddon (VC, T)
15 Violent treatment of criminals (C, S)
10 Paranoia
15 Reputation: Violent and crazy crimefighter (Ext) 11-
15 Secret ID: Joseph Walter Kovacs
25 Experience
245 Total Disadvantage Points
Designers Notes:
Born Joseph Walter Kovacs, Rorschach is the terror of the underworld. He
is the last unsanctioned masked vigilante, patrolling the streets of New
York. Rorschach was born in 1940, to Sylvia Joanna Kovacs, a small time
prostitute. His early environment was a violent one, which greatly
influenced his world view an attitude towards women and criminals. He
spent a great deal of his later childhood (ages 11 to 16) in state care,
finally being released in 1956 to take employment as a garment worker.
Kovacs became Rorschach in 1964 after the rape and murder of Kitty
Genovese (a 'real world' incident'). A death witnessed by more than 40
neighbors, none of whom did anything to help. After reading about her
death in the newspaper, Kovacs went home and "...made a face I could bear
to look at in the mirror."
After developing the Rorschach persona, Kovacs went on to fight crime in
his own, violent way. He teamed up with Nite Owl II in 1965, fighting
street gangs and taking down such personalities as the Big Figure and the
Underboss. In 1975, Rorschach investigated the kidnapping of six year old
Blair Roche. What he discovered drove him over the edge, causing him to
truly develop his Rorschach persona to the point where Rorschach spoke in
a flat monotone and upped his already violent treatment of criminals.
Rorschach remained active after the passage of the Keene Act in 1977 and
finally met his end at the hands of Dr. Manhattan in 1985.
Description:
Rorschach is short and wiry, with reddish hair and an 'ugly' freckled
face. He is very strong for his sizeand keeps himself in excellent
physical shape. It seems that Rorschach doesn't bathe very often (Silk
Spectre II comments on his smell) instead dousing himself with cologne
every so often.
When dressed as Rorschach, Kovacs wears a dark purple pinstriped suit, a
brown trnch coat, long white scarf, black gloves and a brown fedora. He
also has his 'face', a mask consisting of a black, viscous fluid between
two layers of white laytex. This mask gives Rorschach's face the
appearence of a Rorschach ink blot... hence his name.
Powers Notes:
When dealing with Rorschach there are three things one must remember about
him. He is very strong, very smart and very scary. Records indicate that
he was an accomplished amateur boxer and gymnast. He is also highly
intelligent and very literate. Finally, Rorschach terrifies many people,
especially the underworld community. He is very hard to scare or impress
and not even Dr. Manhattan can give him pause.
Most of Rorschach's skills and powers are pretty easy to understand. His
only unusual item is a gas-powered grappling gun, made for him by Nite Owl
II. It fires small grappling hook with a line attached, and Rorschach has
used to to climb upwards of 25 story buildings. He has also used it as a
weapon, shooting a police officer and fracturing the man's sternum despite
the officer's armored vest.
Disadvantages Notes:
Most of Rorschach's disads are pretty easy to understand. He's wanted by
the police for two murders (one of the man who kidnapped Blair Roche) the
other of a multiple-rapist. It's Rorschach's psyche that needs a bit of
explaining. The quote that heads this character sheet, and the quote
given in his psych lims defines an important aspect of Rorschach's
character. No one is above the law. Ozymandias kills 3 million people in
order to save the world from nuclear armageddon. A feat so 'big' that
everyone else realizes that can't say anything or else doom the world.
Rorschach, on the other hand, cannot let these deaths go unavenged and
refuses to go along. He will see justice done, even if it means the end
of the world.
Rorschach is very violent in his treatment of the 'criminal element'. His
preffered method of gaining information is to go into cheap bars and start
hurting people. He kills a multiple rapist, burns to death a murderer and
drops the masochistic Captain Carnage dowen an elevator shaft. Finally,
Rorschach is more than a bit paranoid. He is suspicious of everyone and
will create highly improbile motives for certain events (such as
suspecting Nite Owl I of killing the Comedian).
(Rorshach created by Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons, character sheet created
by Michael Surbrook)
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
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Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 07:58:00 -0600
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: CHAR: Cpt Metropolis
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Michael Surbrook wrote:
>
> On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 8 Jun 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> >
> > > 15 Secret ID: Nelson Gardner; Homosexual
> >
> > Being homosexual should be good for a Distinctive Features, above and
> > beyond the standard Secret ID that most all of the Minuteman have.
>
> How is it a DF? A DF is something most people can spot just by looking at
> you. Unless you're a cliche-ridden Hollywood homosexual with a limp-wrist
> and a lisp, no one's going to point at you and say "Look! He's gay!".
> Hero does need something like GURPS Social Stigma disad (or an expansion
> of Secret ID to something like GURPS Secret or DC Heroes 'Dark Secret')
>
In this particular case we have always made a slight adjustment to
Secret ID. Under DF it says you can take it more than once if you have
two very diffent DFs. We treat the Secret ID that way... two major
secrets that have to be covered up diffently warrent two Secret IDs...
Just a thought
--
Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards,
for they are subtle and quick to anger. -J R R Tolkien
No matter how subtle the Wizard,
a knife between the shoulderblades will seriously cramp his style. -S
Brust
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From: "David W. Salmon" <dwsalmon@earthlink.net>
To: "Champions News Group" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Hunted... Why?
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 09:47:00 -0700
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How about the person just saw something they shouldn't have ...
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Friday, June 12, 1998 6:22 PM
Subject: Hunted... Why?
> Here's an exercise in thought. (Maybe it'll help Steve when he comes to
>the appropriate part of the Fifth Edition Rulebook, too!)
> What are some of the reasons you can think of that a character might
>have the Hunted Disadvantage? These are the ones I can come up with:
>
> - Bigotry. The character is a member of some demographic group (black,
>mutant, alien, mentalist, or whatever) that the Hunter doesn't like.
> - Frankenstein Syndrome. The character once built the Hunter, or vice
>versa, but the creation has turned against the creator.
> - Law Enforcement. The character is wanted as a criminal (whether he
>actually committed the crime or not), and law enforcement wants him.
> - Old Enemy. The Hunter is a criminal whom the character has repeatedly
>foiled, and wants revenge.
> - Personal History. The character might be a former member of organized
>crime, or otherwise have a long-standing reason that the Hunter hates the
>character.
> - Professional Rivalries Overdone. The Hunter wants to be better than
>the character, and is willing to go to lengths that even outstrip a
>standard Rivalry.
> - Recruitment By Force. The Hunter is an organization that wants to
>recruit the character, whether he wants to join or not.
> - Stolen Equipment. The character stole something (probably something
>technological or magical) from the Hunter, who wants it back.
> - Technology Envy. The stuff that the character has is better than the
>stuff that the Hunter has, and the Hunter doesn't like that one bit.
>
> Anyone have other ideas, or bits drawn from published products?
>---
>Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
>Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
>
>
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Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 13:03:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: CHAR: Cpt Metropolis
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Sat, 13 Jun 1998, Curtis Gibson wrote:
> > > > 15 Secret ID: Nelson Gardner; Homosexual
> > >
> > > Being homosexual should be good for a Distinctive Features, above and
> > > beyond the standard Secret ID that most all of the Minuteman have.
> >
> > How is it a DF? A DF is something most people can spot just by looking at
> > you. Unless you're a cliche-ridden Hollywood homosexual with a limp-wrist
> > and a lisp, no one's going to point at you and say "Look! He's gay!".
> > Hero does need something like GURPS Social Stigma disad (or an expansion
> > of Secret ID to something like GURPS Secret or DC Heroes 'Dark Secret')
> >
> In this particular case we have always made a slight adjustment to
> Secret ID. Under DF it says you can take it more than once if you have
> two very diffent DFs. We treat the Secret ID that way... two major
> secrets that have to be covered up diffently warrent two Secret IDs...
That's not a bad idea. Secret ID could become just 'Secret' and be used
for assorted disads like that. When adapting the Wildcards characters I
used Secret ID for a variety of things. Homosexual and Fromer Spy were
two.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
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Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 10:21:09 -0700
To: "Champions News Group" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Hunted... Why?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 09:47 AM 6/13/1998 -0700, David W. Salmon wrote:
>How about the person just saw something they shouldn't have ...
Knows Too Much.... good addition! :-]
(I unfortunately lost some of the other responses due to a snafu with
the mailing system, but I'll try to catch up with them as I can....)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 12:24:34 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: New topic: Teleportation & Usable Against Others
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On 12 Jun 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> Nuncheon writes:
>
> > Telekinesis lets you basically exert strength at range.
>
> > Teleport UAO lets you take something from /here/ and put it /there/
> > without it occupying the intervening space.
>
> Telekenesis lets you move something from here and move it there. It
> depends on the special effects involved.
Strength lets you pick up something form here and carry it over there.
Depending on the SFX, does that mean I should be able to carry it through
walls? Somehow I don't think so.
There is no mechanism in the HERO system for letting Telekinesis teleport
objects. You can't use Telekinesis to move a box through a wall (unless
there's an open window or some other gap in the wall that will let the box
through.)
J
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net>
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Hunted... Why?
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 13:29:04 -0500
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Bob Greenwade writes:
> Here's an exercise in thought. (Maybe it'll help Steve when he comes
to
>the appropriate part of the Fifth Edition Rulebook, too!)
> What are some of the reasons you can think of that a character might
>have the Hunted Disadvantage? These are the ones I can come up with:
Group Hunted: From the hunter's point of view, Guilt by Association.
"Anyone tries to help Robin Hood, they're on my list too."
This is really just a way to give every character the same Hunted--useful
for those GMs, like me, who really don't want to try to involve a variety
of hunters. Set the point value based on how often the characters will
offend people who can do something about it. Heck, I don't even specify
the group hunted when the character is created, and I don't feel bad about
changing it during the game. The players always manage to offend villians
in far more interesting ways after the game starts. Also, the GM can
prohibit the use of other Hunted except for when the PC conception just
demands it.
Steven Mitchell
mdmitche@advicom.net
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Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 14:29:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Feedback on power set wanted
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Sat, 13 Jun 1998, qts wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:25:16 -0400 (EDT), Michael Surbrook wrote:
>
> >That said, I'm looking for feedback on a power set I'm developing for a
> >being called a 'Wu'. A Wu is a human (or similar creature) that has had
> >it's soul removed from its body.
>
> Wouldn't the Spirit Rules be an almost perfect fit here?
I'm trying to write up the material using just the HSR, not the Almanacs.
Besudes, I don't care much for the Spirit Rules. They seem overly complex
for what should be a simple task.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: "Champions Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org&>
"Michael Surbrook" <susano@access.digex.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 98 19:01:33
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Feedback on power set wanted
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:25:16 -0400 (EDT), Michael Surbrook wrote:
>That said, I'm looking for feedback on a power set I'm developing for a
>being called a 'Wu'. A Wu is a human (or similar creature) that has had
>it's soul removed from its body.
Wouldn't the Spirit Rules be an almost perfect fit here?
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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