Digest Archives Vol 1 Issue 100
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Saturday, December 19, 1998 12:13 AM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #100
champ-l-digest Saturday, December 19 1998 Volume 01 : Number 100
In this issue:
Re: 95 years ago...
Re: Updated VIPER
Re: Martial Arts Maneuver Elements (longish)
re: Cottage Weekend
Advantaged Move Through
Re: Advantaged Move Through
RE: Advantaged Move Through
Re: Advantaged Move Through
Re: 95 years ago...
Re: Advantaged Move Through
RE: Advantaged Move Through
range of success
Re: Advantaged Move Through
Re: Advantaged Move Through
Re: range of success
Re: Advantaged Move Through
Re: range of success
RE: Advantaged Move Through
Re: range of success
Re: range of success
Re: range of success
Re: range of success
Time Stop
Re: range of success
RE: Advantaged Move Through
RE: Advantaged Move Through
Re: Advantaged Move Through
Pro-rated Strength
RE: Advantaged Move Through
Re: range of success
Re: range of success
Re: range of success
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 01:04:47 -0800
From: Eric Chaves <rambler@sowest.net>
Subject: Re: 95 years ago...
>
>95 years ago, two young men - both high-school drops outs - who made their
>living repairing bicycles, accomplished a feat deemed impossible by many
>of their fellows.
>
>They flew.
And less than 70 years later we accomplished a feat that was considered
only in the realm of science fiction . . .
We landed a man on the moon.
Geek Code
****************************************************************************
GCS d++ H s:+ !g !p au+ a- w++ v++ C++++ UL+ P? L+ 3- E? N+++ K- W--- M++ !V
po--- Y+ t++ 5 j R++ G'' tv++ b++ D++ B--- e- u** h+ f+ r n+ y**
****************************************************************************
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 21:53:54 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Updated VIPER
>>Quantum: Assuming they know the disad, VIPER needs to develop a STUN drain
>>weapon. Probably a paralyzing gas grenade launcher with continuing charges
>>(significant development project).
>
> Nah, I'd make it a BODY Drain in the form of a metabolic disruptor.
>Like the above, a significant development project, but one that can be
>deadly to many other enemies of VIPER as well.
Too slow and doesn't slow the target down during it. Stun Drain at least
has intermediate effects; someone with a -2 Body is still quite capable of
taking the Body Drain weapon away from you and shoving it where the sun
don't shine.
>>Defender: Develop a magnetic blaster that does extra damage against robots
>and
>>powered armor (Major development project, but probably one VIPER would
>find very
>>useful).
>
> An anti-tech device (Dispel vs All High-Tech Powers At Once) might be
>just as useful (especially if one allows the "Cumulative" Advantage on
>Dispel). It would also be effective against Warhawk (whom I developed for
>TUV).
Usually a damn bad idea IMO. You can Dispel almost anything with that if
you do.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:02:42 -0600 (CST)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts Maneuver Elements (longish)
On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin wrote:
> If I understood it correctly, one possible use of the maneuver is to use a
> long pole or plank to hit two people at the same time, one just ahead and
> to your left, the other just ahead and to your right.
Sure.
> All you do is bring
> the improvised weapon up and thrust it forward; it should hit both targets
> simultaneously.
Well, sort of. (see below)
> The above treatment gives a -2 to OCV [no problem],
> requires separate attack rolls for each target [questionable, I think, but
> see #1 below] and makes it impossible to hit the "secondary" target if the
> first roll fails [why?]
The last is the one I'm not sure about. My guess is that it's half game
balance (to prevent you from trying to Sweep 6 guys every time and hoping
you get lucky, for a cheap (free!) area effect kind of thing) and half
realism (if you're trying to hit two guys, and you don't hit the first
one, it's going to throw you off.)
> Now, remember I didn't claim to be able to offer useful advice on this
> subject, but I think it might make more sense to me if you applied a -2 to
> OCV for attacking two targets together, with an extra -1 or -2 for every
> additional target to be attacked together, instead of requiring separate
> attack rolls. The greater the number of targets, the more difficult the
> move, but you'd still be able to treat it as a single move
Well, note that 'sweep' is not necessarily a literal sweep, trying to hit
many people with a single stroke. You could also use it for a
fast series of attacks or a pair of simultaneous attacks - if, for
example, I backfisted one guy on either side of me. Two separate attacks,
two rolls, one phase.
> (2) Even given that two separate attack rolls makes sense for a single move
> (and I would like that explained),
Sure. Take your example with the staff and the two guys. You thrust it
forward. Guy A is standing slightly closer to you than Guy B, so he gets
whacked, but Guy B doesn't. If you wanted to hit both of them, you'd have
to position yourself precisely so that the staff would impact both of
them.
> (3) For purposes of the first two questions, does it make any difference
> that I described an attack that included the use of a weapon (Weapon
> Element required?) as opposed to Roland's original example of kicking two
> guys in the head at once?
Um...no.
> (4) In cases where a ladder, long pole or plank is used, you might also be
> able to Block multiple incoming attacks with a single maneuver.
> Could Blocking multiple opponents could be done in some similar
> fashion, based in part on what Roland described for a single attack with
> multiple targets?
Sure, I'd let someone Sweep a Block, even if they weren't using a ladder,
long pole, or plank, especially if it was a cinematic swashbuckling type
game.
J
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 07:40:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Ell Egyptoid <egyptoid@yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Cottage Weekend
> Was this the "Poker with the Deck of Many Things" game?
It was the same campaign, but probably not the same evening.
What happened:
A Chaos Daemon was hunting someone (either the paladin or the
wizard, I forget) in the party. But all it wanted to do was
hang out and fool around. So the wizard pops up some sort of
safe haven spell to escape it. Cool, the party chills out for
a while, rests and RECovers, regains spell points, etc. Just
as everyone's about to settle down for bed, a rift opens up
in the wall and their buddy the daemon steps through, only
instead of being dressed for combat the daemon is wearing a
green black-jack-dealers cap and is carrying a big deck of
cards.
So against their better judgement (and a desire to not fight
the damn thing) they had to sit down and play poker with a
Deck of Many Things. Whoever won the hand got all the effects
of the cards at once. Total Chaos! Wa-Hoo!
==
Elliott aka The Egyptoid
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:39:06 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Advantaged Move Through
OK, here's a veteran asking what is probably a "newbie" kind of
question. I know I could find the answer in the HSR somewhere, or maybe
TUMA, but I'm at a loss as to exactly where.
I'm designing a character (villain, actually) whose 20 STR is bought as
Armor Piercing, Double Knockback, 1/2 END (total Advantage 1-1/2). He also
has 25" of Flight.
My question is twofold: How much damage does he do with a Move Through?
And do I need to put the AP and DK on the Flight for the Move Through to
get those Advantages?
(I really need a "book-legal" answer here, without "house rules" if it
can be avoided.)
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: 18 Dec 1998 13:51:57 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Advantaged Move Through
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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"BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
BG> I'm designing a character (villain, actually) whose 20 STR is bought as
BG> Armor Piercing, Double Knockback, 1/2 END (total Advantage 1-1/2). He also
BG> has 25" of Flight.
BG> My question is twofold: How much damage does he do with a Move Through?
By the book: STR+Velocity/3: 12d6. His AP and 2xKB do not come into play
because you have not paid for AP and 2xKB for a 12DC attack, only for a 4DC
attack.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
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GPG Key: same as my PGP 5 (DH) key \
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:53:03 -0600
From: "Hudson, Robert" <x2rhudso@southernco.com>
Subject: RE: Advantaged Move Through
At 12:52 PM Dec 18 Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>By the book: STR+Velocity/3: 12d6. His AP and 2xKB do not come
into play because you have not paid for AP and 2xKB for a 12DC attack, only
for a 4DC attack.
[I'm playing Devil's Advocate here - apologies all!]
True enough. But by the same token, an HKA bought with Armor
Piercing retains the advantage on the extra dice given to the HKA from the
user's STR - without requiring that the AP be purchased for the higher
total.
How do you resolve this double standard?
Rob Hudson
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:57:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Hayden <mhayden@tsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Advantaged Move Through
On 18 Dec 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> By the book: STR+Velocity/3: 12d6. His AP and 2xKB do not come into play
> because you have not paid for AP and 2xKB for a 12DC attack, only for a 4DC
> attack.
By the book, Advantages bought on HTH Attacks and Killing Hand Attacks
also apply to the STR added to those attacks. That is, a 2d6 AP HKA bought
for 45 points actually does 4d6 AP HKA with 30 STR.
By the book, 10 STR Affects Desolid can still do 12d6 on a 30" Move
Through.
So, are extra DCs gained from strength, velocity, or maneuvers covered by
the Advantages? Hmm...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Michael D. Hayden -- mhayden@silverhammer.org -- http://silverhammer.org/
Hey, I use Procmail with Spam Bouncer, so spam away! (^_^)
"What you are about to see is real. These are not actors; they're directors."
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:57:52 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: 95 years ago...
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@otd.com>
>On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Oscar Tibor wrote:
>
>> Hopefully to Mars within the next 20 years, although mankind should
>> already have colonies on the moon & Mars if we had continued with a real
>> space program. Unfortunately we must rely on the space shuttle, over a
>> billion accidents waiting to happen.
>> There endeth my rant on the space program.
>
>All things considered, the shuttle seems to work quite well.
Ugh. Absolutely not.
The Shuttle is a badly kludged together vehicle, using a design that was
finalized nearly _30_ years ago, in virtually all of its major systems, and
was a compromise system to begin with, made cheaply to build but without any
consideration of the fact that over its life this approach has pushed the
cost of running it through the roof. Its computers, the last I checked, were
still Apple IIe computers, and those are some of its most up-to-date
features. It is hideously expensive to run, with the single most expensive
thing being that it takes _months_ for turn-around time, and the second that
it has a crew of over 1,500. Because Congress refused to pay for proper
research and development on it to begin with, it is _more_ expensive to send
a pound into orbit with the Shuttle than with a Delta rocket, and, if past
experience is any guide, the Delta is probably more likely to make it.
If Congress had invested in the Space Shuttle and its successors to begin
with it would have been decent. However, Congress would rather spend 2
billion dollars a year over 20 years than 4 billion today and 1 billion a
year after that. That way, each year they vote on a smaller amount, so the
voters never notice that the bill is much, much higher. As a result, they
built a Rube Goldberg contraption designed to save money in the initial
outlay, and damn the cost in the long run, since the voters won't notice,
and they can always kill it later because of the cost.
If NASA wasn't so wedded to high-tech, bleeding edge designs, and instead
threw its support behind an inexpensive SSTO (Single Stage To Orbit) design,
we would soon have economically viable space _tourism_, and the space
industry would be a boom industry to make computers look sickly by
comparison. Repeated studies have shown we could probably do it today
without _any_ government support, if anyone with the money was willing to
invest in it, and it would be worth many billions. Instead, NASA keeps
fighting to get the money for space planes that haven't even been completely
designed yet, and which, if built, would be too expensive for all but the
most lucrative satellite launches.
The Shuttle stinks, and, frankly, I think it is as much the fault of NASA as
Congress.
Sorry for the rant, but we were working on viable designs for space planes
in the 1960's, and, if we had followed through, we'd have space hotels by
now. Instead, we have a vehicle so badly designed that, even though it has
its own engine, has to be launched part way by other rockets, which
sometimes explode. We have had manned space flight for over 35 years. In
that time we went from Kittyhawk to commercial trans-Atlantic flights.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:09:19 -0800
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Advantaged Move Through
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
>
> BG> I'm designing a character (villain, actually) whose 20 STR is bought as
> BG> Armor Piercing, Double Knockback, 1/2 END (total Advantage 1-1/2). He also
> BG> has 25" of Flight.
> BG> My question is twofold: How much damage does he do with a Move Through?
>
> By the book: STR+Velocity/3: 12d6. His AP and 2xKB do not come into play
> because you have not paid for AP and 2xKB for a 12DC attack, only for a 4DC
> attack.
Or: You pro-rate the DCs from the flight by the relevent advantages (AP &
2xKB)
So the math is 40/2.25 = 17.77 or 3d6 + 4d6 STR with AP & 2xKB.
Of course if the character pushes the flight 1", he gets 45/2.25 = 20 or 4d6
added to his strength for the movethrough.
I think this is just as book as Rats, but my version leaves one to figure
out whether the character doing the movethrough has to have hardenned
defenses. Though I would multiply the damage by .75 for the character doing
the movethrough for damage obtained. (Or 1.5 if no KB is achieved)
I think Rat's is easier to use, while mine uses the pro-rated damage
that's also in the book.
- -Mark Lemming
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:15:32 -0500
From: Brian Wawrow <bwawrow@mondello.toronto.fmco.com>
Subject: RE: Advantaged Move Through
This is true for HKA's but I don't think that's true for extra HtH dice.
] By the book, Advantages bought on HTH Attacks and Killing Hand Attacks
] also apply to the STR added to those attacks. That is, a 2d6
] AP HKA bought
] for 45 points actually does 4d6 AP HKA with 30 STR.
If you have a 45STR guy and you but 1D6HtH w/ armor piercing, effects
desolid, autofire, and 0END for 9pts, you do not end up with a 10D6 punch
with all those advantages.
HKA is different than HtH damage because the total damage of an HKA is
limited by the size of the power itself, whereas extra HtH damage is
completely additive.
At least that's how I interpret things.
BRI
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:10:57 -0600 (CST)
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Subject: range of success
In my opinion, one thing that Hero doesn't handle well without GM
intervention is attempts to do something that have a variable
range of success (or failure) rather than a simple "you did it" or
"you failed".
Has anybody else encountered this ? Does anybody have a solution ?
Curt Hicks
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:14:41 EST
From: Firelynx16@aol.com
Subject: Re: Advantaged Move Through
In a message dated 12/18/98 11:45:43 AM Central Standard Time,
bob.greenwade@klock.com writes:
> OK, here's a veteran asking what is probably a "newbie" kind of
> question. I know I could find the answer in the HSR somewhere, or maybe
> TUMA, but I'm at a loss as to exactly where.
> I'm designing a character (villain, actually) whose 20 STR is bought as
> Armor Piercing, Double Knockback, 1/2 END (total Advantage 1-1/2). He also
> has 25" of Flight.
> My question is twofold: How much damage does he do with a Move Through?
> And do I need to put the AP and DK on the Flight for the Move Through to
> get those Advantages?
> (I really need a "book-legal" answer here, without "house rules" if it
> can be avoided.)
Well, according to HSR, pg 159, Adding Damage, if I'm reading correctly, it
would seem that the added damage from the Move Through needs to take into
account the Armor Piercing Advantage... "If a character has bought his STR as
Armor Piercing he only adds 1d6 for every 1 1/2d6 of damage bonus." Assuming
this is the only Advantage that counts (though I'd argue Penetrating should
count, and maybe others...depending on SFX), the 25" of Move Through bonus
would go down to +5 1/2 DC of damage, ending with a 9 1/2 d6 attack.
------------------------------
Date: 18 Dec 1998 16:48:15 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Advantaged Move Through
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"ML" == Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com> writes:
ML> I think this is just as book as Rats,
No, it is by the semi-official ruling of Aaron Allston, not the book.
And as for Michael's math, you get a 3D6+1 AP HKA, not 4D6.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover
GPG Key: same as my PGP 5 (DH) key \ head.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:49:54 -0600 (CST)
From: Rick Jones <rick@blkbox.com>
Subject: Re: range of success
Curt Hicks wrote:
> range of success (or failure) rather than a simple "you did it" or
> "you failed".
>
> Has anybody else encountered this ? Does anybody have a solution ?
I generally fudge it with how much they made their skill roll by.
- --
Rick Jones That's the kind of wooly-headed liberal thinking that
rick@blkbox.com leads to being eaten.
http://www-ece.rice.edu/~rickj/ --Principal Snyder,Buffy The Vampire Slayer
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 15:42:58 -0500
From: emiller1@worldbank.org
Subject: Re: Advantaged Move Through
Bob, I would suggest that, if you want this dashing wonder to have those
advantages on his move-throughs, you should buy a number of dice equal to
the maximum number he could add based on velocity. Buy the dice as Hand
Attack. Or, if you prefer (many here on the list do), as Energy Blast,
Physical, No Range. Buy these dice with the specified advantages, as well
as (I would so) No End Cost (end is paid on the flight or other relevant
movement), and limited by Only usable to cover the additional dice for such
maneuvers (call it -1/2, the same as "Linked to Flight"). That's how I
would do it, and it _is_ book legal. I think even Rat would probably
agree.
David
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 17:48:10 -0500
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: range of success
At 04:10 PM 12/18/98 -0600, Curt Hicks wrote:
>In my opinion, one thing that Hero doesn't handle well without GM
>intervention is attempts to do something that have a variable
>range of success (or failure) rather than a simple "you did it" or
>"you failed".
>
>Has anybody else encountered this ? Does anybody have a solution ?
Examples??
We talked about variable success on Blocks. (Haven't actually had
the opportunity to try it out yet.) This is to simulate a block
that doesn't stop the entire attack, but merely blunts it. I think
on the List, the example was Inigo Montoya in his shoulder-stabbing
swordfight with the six-fingered man.
We'll probably have to play with this to see how it works for us.
We talked about several options, but I think the one we liked best
was the simplest version: Miss your block by 1 and you take 1/2
damage. Miss by 2 and you take 1/4 damage. Any greater and you
take the whole attack.
====================== =================================================
Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
====================== =================================================
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:03:23 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Hayden <mhayden@tsoft.com>
Subject: RE: Advantaged Move Through
On Fri, 18 Dec 1998, Brian Wawrow wrote:
> If you have a 45STR guy and you but 1D6HtH w/ armor piercing, effects
> desolid, autofire, and 0END for 9pts, you do not end up with a 10D6 punch
> with all those advantages.
I never said you could. Check my example again. Maximum added DCs from
STR = base DCs in HTH or HKA. Duh. But my original point remains the same:
any Advantages bought on that HA or HKA also apply to the added STR, up to
that maximum.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Michael D. Hayden -- mhayden@silverhammer.org -- http://silverhammer.org/
Hey, I use Procmail with Spam Bouncer, so spam away! (^_^)
"What you are about to see is real. These are not actors; they're directors."
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 15:14:18 PST
From: "Jesse Thomas" <haerandir@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: range of success
On Fri, 18 Dec 1998, Curt Hicks wrote:
>
>In my opinion, one thing that Hero doesn't handle well without GM
>intervention is attempts to do something that have a variable
>range of success (or failure) rather than a simple "you did it" or
>"you failed".
>
>Has anybody else encountered this ? Does anybody have a solution ?
About the only thing I can think of that even addresses this issue (in
the BBB, anyway) is the "Extraordinary Skills" rule on p. 19. Still, GM
intervention is pretty much the way things seem to work. Unfortunately,
that doesn't really allow for the "Wow, I rolled a 3! How cool is
that?" syndrome. Most games don't handle this very well. Even in a
game like Shadowrun, Vampire, or Feng Shui, the GM has to make up a lot
of detail to justify the outcome of a good roll. I say just hope your
GM is good at describing levels of success off the top of his head.
Even in a game as abstract and numbers-oriented as Champions, there's
still a time and a place for winging it.
Jesse Thomas
haerandir@hotmail.com
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:19:16 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: Re: range of success
At 05:48 PM 12/18/98 -0500, Mike Christodoulou wrote:
>At 04:10 PM 12/18/98 -0600, Curt Hicks wrote:
>>In my opinion, one thing that Hero doesn't handle well without GM
>>intervention is attempts to do something that have a variable
>>range of success (or failure) rather than a simple "you did it" or
>>"you failed".
>>
>>Has anybody else encountered this ? Does anybody have a solution ?
>
>
>Examples??
Mind Control is a good example. You either are or aren't. Ditto for
Transform.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Hold it the greatest wrong to prefer life to honor
and for the sake of life to lose the reason for living."
Juvenal, Satires
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scott C. Nolan
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 18:08:20 -0600
From: "Logan D." <logand@cyberramp.net>
Subject: Re: range of success
>We'll probably have to play with this to see how it works for us.
>We talked about several options, but I think the one we liked best
>was the simplest version: Miss your block by 1 and you take 1/2
>damage. Miss by 2 and you take 1/4 damage. Any greater and you
>take the whole attack.
I assume here that you mean "Miss your block by 1 and you treat the block as
50%
damage reduction. Miss by 2 and it's 25% damage reduction. Any greater and
you
take the whole attack."
Is this correct?
- -Logan
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- --
"God does not play dice with the universe; He plays an ineffable
game of His own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective
of any of the other players,* to being involved in an obscure and complex
version of poker in a pitch-dark room, with blank cards, for infinite
stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who
_smiles all the time_."
-Neil Gaimen and Terry Pratchett
_Good Omens_
*i.e., everybody.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- --
web page: http://www.cyberramp.net/~logand/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:30:00 -0500
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: range of success
At 06:08 PM 12/18/98 -0600, Logan D. wrote:
>
>>We'll probably have to play with this to see how it works for us.
>>We talked about several options, but I think the one we liked best
>>was the simplest version: Miss your block by 1 and you take 1/2
>>damage. Miss by 2 and you take 1/4 damage. Any greater and you
>>take the whole attack.
>
>
>I assume here that you mean "Miss your block by 1 and you treat the block as
>50%
>damage reduction. Miss by 2 and it's 25% damage reduction. Any greater and
>you
>take the whole attack."
>
We've never actually tried it yet, but that's the general idea.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:29:22 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: Time Stop
I'd like to create a FH spell that allows a character to stop time
for himself, freezing the rest of the world in it's tracks while
he performs several actions.
One way to do this would be to buy the spell as:
+5 SPD, only to perform non-combat actions
Now, I've heard all the cautions about multiple
Speeds, and that's not what worries me. What
worries me is that this really describes a slowing
down of time, since the others will still be acting
during some of these phases. And what if I
want to buy the time-stopped character a whole
minute?
Is there a better way?
I'm considering Extra-Dimensional Travel, through time.
This would represent the character's inability to interact
with other characters in the normal time-stream and would
allow the character whatever time I as GM see fit to place
as a limit on the spell. The effect would be to return him
to the same point in normal time after the spell had expired,
but with the added benefit of whatever healing or recovery
the character was able to take in the interim.
Comments?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Hold it the greatest wrong to prefer life to honor
and for the sake of life to lose the reason for living."
Juvenal, Satires
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scott C. Nolan
------------------------------
Date: 18 Dec 1998 20:25:18 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: range of success
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"CH" == Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> writes:
CH> Has anybody else encountered this ? Does anybody have a solution ?
A solution would be required if there were a problem. I do not see a
problem. 'Critical success' and 'critical failure' are things that should
be treated as plot devices, not game mechanics.
My personal favorite annecdote of a game mechanic critical rule comes from
Mekton Zeta: final scenario, the heroes are arrayed against the ultimate
villain of the story. GM rolls an absurdly high critical hit which, had he
let it stand, would have utterly destroyed all of the heroes' mecha in one
shot.
My personal favorite annecdote of a critical rule being a plot device
rather than a game mechanic comes not from a game but a movie: Star Wars.
Maybe you've seen it? :)
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:35:35 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: Advantaged Move Through
At 11:07 AM 12/18/98 -0800, James Jandebeur wrote:
>Feel free to forward this to the list: I'm taking a short break from work
>and recent changes make it impossible for me to send to the list.
>
>> (I really need a "book-legal" answer here, without "house rules" if it
>>can be avoided.)
>
>I don't think there is a book-legal answer to your question. However...
Probably true. That may have been why I had such a hard time finding
one on my own.
>> I'm designing a character (villain, actually) whose 20 STR is bought as
>>Armor Piercing, Double Knockback, 1/2 END (total Advantage 1-1/2). He also
>>has 25" of Flight.
>> My question is twofold: How much damage does he do with a Move Through?
>>And do I need to put the AP and DK on the Flight for the Move Through to
>>get those Advantages?
>
>If you have an Armor Piercing Hand Killing Attack, you only add 2/3's of
>your STR to the attack to increase damage. Thus, a 15 STR character only
>adds 2 damage classes rather than 3 to the attack. To the best of my
>knowledge, this is official, but I can't quote it or tell you where it is.
>This also applies if you use the AP HKA with a move through, I think: if you
>would do 6 dice with the Move Through, you add 4 DC's to the Killing Attack,
>up to the limit of course.
>
>By extrapolation, you could apply the same to the movement adding to your
>strength for damage when strength has the advantages. The movement normally
>adds 8 dice, so divide that by 2-1/2 (to take the 1-1/2 advantage into
>account) to get 3 dice and add that to your STR damage, doing 7 dice, AP,
>Double Knockback, and so on.
>
>It could be argued that you shouldn't need to take the Reduced END advantage
>into account, since the flight doesn't get the benefit of it. This increases
>complexity and requires the answer to the question, "Which advantages
>count?", if other characters are created with similar abilities. But it is
>probably more fair, and you do only have to figure it out once for a given
>character.
After reading through all the replies I've gotten so far (including this
and two others sent privately), this is the route I'm going to go.
Something else that just occurred to me about this guy, though: would
his "backlash" damage be Armor Piercing?
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:20:59 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: RE: Advantaged Move Through
> After reading through all the replies I've gotten so far (including this
>and two others sent privately), this is the route I'm going to go.
> Something else that just occurred to me about this guy, though: would
>his "backlash" damage be Armor Piercing?
This problem also occurs when doing move-throughs with killing attacks, such
as a spear charge. My usual answer is to say no, and treat the backlash as
normal damage, though there might be exceptions. If you take that approach
here, I'd increase the damage by a third again before calculating that
against him.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:15:15 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Advantaged Move Through
>On 18 Dec 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
>> By the book: STR+Velocity/3: 12d6. His AP and 2xKB do not come into play
>> because you have not paid for AP and 2xKB for a 12DC attack, only for a 4DC
>> attack.
>
>By the book, Advantages bought on HTH Attacks and Killing Hand Attacks
>also apply to the STR added to those attacks. That is, a 2d6 AP HKA bought
>for 45 points actually does 4d6 AP HKA with 30 STR.
>
>By the book, 10 STR Affects Desolid can still do 12d6 on a 30" Move
>Through.
>
>So, are extra DCs gained from strength, velocity, or maneuvers covered by
>the Advantages? Hmm...
Uhm, this isn't quite correct. In the example above the would do 3D6+1 HKA;
the STR pro-rates to the bought advantage.
------------------------------
Date: 18 Dec 1998 21:42:44 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Pro-rated Strength
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By the book, only Strength is pro-rated.
You have 30 Strength and a 1D6 HKA, Armor Piercing (+1/2), Double Knockback
(+3/4), Reduced END (+1/2). Your pro-rated Strength is 13; the Reduced END
advantage is not figured in because it does not affect damage. With
Strength, your attack would do 1.5D6 (or 2D6-1 if the GM is generous),
Armor Piercing, Double Knockback.
If you have 15 Strength bought with Armor Piercing and Double Knockback,
and you have a 1D6 HKA, you can do either 3D6 normal AP, 2xKB; or a 2D6 HKA
with no advantages. The HKA is *NOT* pro-rated. If you want Armor
Piercing and Double Knockback on your HKA, you must pay for them.
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 21:24:17 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: RE: Advantaged Move Through
At 10:20 AM 12/18/98 -0800, Wayne Shaw wrote:
>
>> After reading through all the replies I've gotten so far (including this
>>and two others sent privately), this is the route I'm going to go.
>> Something else that just occurred to me about this guy, though: would
>>his "backlash" damage be Armor Piercing?
>
>This problem also occurs when doing move-throughs with killing attacks, such
>as a spear charge. My usual answer is to say no, and treat the backlash as
>normal damage, though there might be exceptions. If you take that approach
>here, I'd increase the damage by a third again before calculating that
>against him.
I'd also say no. This damage is a result of a collision, not a result of
being
stabbed. Unless the target had some sort of damage shield, I'd say that this
'backlash' damage is always just normal DC's of damage, which he may
possibly blow off with enough PD.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Hold it the greatest wrong to prefer life to honor
and for the sake of life to lose the reason for living."
Juvenal, Satires
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scott C. Nolan
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 21:20:35 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: Re: range of success
At 08:25 PM 12/18/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>"CH" == Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> writes:
>
>CH> Has anybody else encountered this ? Does anybody have a solution ?
>
>A solution would be required if there were a problem. I do not see a
>problem. 'Critical success' and 'critical failure' are things that should
>be treated as plot devices, not game mechanics.
>
>My personal favorite annecdote of a game mechanic critical rule comes from
>Mekton Zeta: final scenario, the heroes are arrayed against the ultimate
>villain of the story. GM rolls an absurdly high critical hit which, had he
>let it stand, would have utterly destroyed all of the heroes' mecha in one
>shot.
>
>My personal favorite annecdote of a critical rule being a plot device
>rather than a game mechanic comes not from a game but a movie: Star Wars.
>Maybe you've seen it? :)
But Curt isn't talking only critical successes or failures. He's talking
graduated results other than "yes" or "no". Something like a partial success
or half damage.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Hold it the greatest wrong to prefer life to honor
and for the sake of life to lose the reason for living."
Juvenal, Satires
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scott C. Nolan
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 20:37:17 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven J. Owens" <puff@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: range of success
> >At 04:10 PM 12/18/98 -0600, Curt Hicks wrote:
> >>In my opinion, one thing that Hero doesn't handle well without GM
> >>intervention is attempts to do something that have a variable
> >>range of success (or failure) rather than a simple "you did it" or
> >>"you failed".
> >>
> >>Has anybody else encountered this ? Does anybody have a solution ?
>
> At 05:48 PM 12/18/98 -0500, Mike Christodoulou wrote:
> >Examples??
Scott Nolan writes:
> Mind Control is a good example. You either are or aren't. Ditto for
> Transform.
Yup, and this points up one of the fundamental flaws with mental
powers (mostly centered on mind control, mental illusions &
telepathy), in my opinion. Champions has a physical dimension to
combat, with many variances (energy vs. physical defense and attacks)
and lots of tactical options and nifty rules.
Mental powers add a whole separate dimension to the game but
without nearly as much in the way of variations and tactical options.
Mental powers aren't balanced. Power Defense-oriented powers (maybe
call them metapowers? :-) like transform are in a similar boat, though
they don't tend to get nearly as much attention because they aren't
seen as much...
Steven J. Owens
puff@netcom.com
------------------------------
Date: 18 Dec 1998 23:47:37 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: range of success
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"SN" == Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com> writes:
SN> But Curt isn't talking only critical successes or failures. He's
SN> talking graduated results other than "yes" or "no". Something like a
SN> partial success or half damage.
"Partial success" = "you get an E for effort, but you still failed".
And as for "glancing blows", that is what happens when you roll crap for
damage.
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------------------------------
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