Digest Archives Vol 1 Issue 103
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Monday, December 21, 1998 6:39 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #103
champ-l-digest Monday, December 21 1998 Volume 01 : Number 103
In this issue:
Re: Power set question
Re: Power set question
Re: Power set question
Re: Power set question
Re: House Rule: Please Comment
Re: Teleporting Others
RE: Advantaged Move Through
RE: Advantaged Move Through
Re: House Rule: Please Comment
Re: House Rule: Please Comment
Re: House Rule: Please Comment
Re: House Rule: Please Comment
Re: Power set question
Re: House Rule: Please Comment
TUV take note!
HTAs n stuff
Re: HTAs n stuff
Re: House Rule: Please Comment
RE: HTAs n stuff
Magic Lab
Re: range of success (long)
Re: House Rule: Please Comment
New Skill: Meditation
Re: House Rule: Please Comment
Re: House Rule: Please Comment
Re: Magic Lab
Re: Magic Lab
Re: House Rule: Please Comment
Re: House Rule: Please Comment
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 98 11:35:00
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Power set question
On Sun, 20 Dec 1998 16:28:00 -0600, Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin
wrote:
>At 06:24 PM 12/19/1998, qts wrote:
>>How about
>>
>>32 EC: Major Shadow Powers (40 Base) Always On (-1/4)
>>32 Desolid 0 End Persistent, Always On
>>40 2d6 Drain vs Body [20] 0 End + 1/2 Rec 5/5 hrs +1, ARW +2
>> (90 Active) Always On -1/4
>>
>>15 EC: Minor Shadow Powers
>>15 Unlife Support: full.
>>15 10" flight x32 NCM
>>
>>Disadvantages:
>>
>>15 DF: Ghost - Concealable, Major reaction
>>15 DF: Aura of Death - Not Concealable
>>12 -6" Running
>> 4 -2" Swimming
>
>What does he really gain by doing this?
The character is leaner, cleaner, and legal
> The character Tim originally
>described is a 250-pt character (incl. 98 pts in Characteristics) who'd run
>out of points after buying the set of powers he listed. The character you
>describe is a 247-pt character who gains no new abilities, except that his
>non-combat Flight is now 16 times faster than before.
And full life support.
>More than one person has pointed out his only attack is a lethal one, and
>(given his Psych Lims) one the character will do almost anything to avoid
>using.
I was deliberately not addressing that issue.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 06:44:35 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Power set question
At 11:35 AM 12/21/1998, qts wrote:
>> The character Tim originally
>>described is a 250-pt character (incl. 98 pts in Characteristics) who'd run
>>out of points after buying the set of powers he listed. The character you
>>describe is a 247-pt character who gains no new abilities, except that his
>>non-combat Flight is now 16 times faster than before.
>
>And full life support.
Oops, you're right. My apologies.
Damon
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 08:06:21 -0600 (CST)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Power set question
On Sat, 19 Dec 1998, qts wrote:
> How about
>
> 32 EC: Major Shadow Powers (40 Base) Always On (-1/4)
> 32 Desolid 0 End Persistent, Always On
> 40 2d6 Drain vs Body [20] 0 End + 1/2 Rec 5/5 hrs +1, ARW +2
> (90 Active) Always On -1/4
>
> 15 EC: Minor Shadow Powers
> 15 Unlife Support: full.
> 15 10" flight x32 NCM
Does this bug anyone else except me? I mean, two ECs, one for 'Major
Shadow Powers' and one for 'Minor Shadow Powers'? ECs are great as a
reward for good character concept, but having two of them for the /same/
character concept is, IMHO, going a little bit too far into the world of
minmaxing.
And oh yeah...isn't 'Always On' a -1/2 limitation normally?
J
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 09:40:05 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@otd.com>
Subject: Re: Power set question
On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Dr. Nuncheon wrote:
> And oh yeah...isn't 'Always On' a -1/2 limitation normally?
Yup.
Michael Surbrook / susano@otd.com
http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion
------------------------------
Date: 21 Dec 1998 09:19:54 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: House Rule: Please Comment
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"WS" == Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com> writes:
WS> That's like saying because you can vary the amount of dice you chose to
WS> roll that combat isn't all or nothing.
NND is all or nothing; Energy Blast is not.
WS> Even worse, since you can't just drop back to a lower effect if you
WS> don't chose it when you launch the attack. If you could decide what
WS> order to give _after_ you found out how much over the Ego value of the
WS> target the Mind Control result was, then that'd be a meaningful
WS> reference.
That would be very un-four-colorish.
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iD8DBQE2flkKgl+vIlSVSNkRAqpRAJ47TbJICB7KypKvzWMu+R24RZDHJgCfcGey
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should
GPG Key: same as my PGP 5 (DH) key \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 09:12:57 -0800
From: "David W. Salmon" <dwsalmon@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Teleporting Others
I would be interested in that Teleport article myself. What is the address
for the haymaker web site ?? Which issue of Haymaker was it in ??
Dave
- -----Original Message-----
From: Ell Egyptoid <egyptoid@yahoo.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Sunday, December 20, 1998 12:14 PM
Subject: Re: Teleporting Others
>> What if he tries this on a 100 kg person who is carrying 200 kg
>> worth of stuff? Does the person vanish while the stuff stays
>> behind? Can he teleport a 100 kg person out of his armor? What
>> if the target is grabbing or has been grabbed?
>
>To me the answer is simple yet complicated.
>
>Teleport can do anything Teleport can do, and cannot
>do anything that Other Powers can do.
>
>Moving people is the domain of Teleport.
>Removing Armor is the domain of Drain, Suppress, etc.
>
>Moving 200kg of bricks is also the domain of Teleport.
>Making holes in walls is the domain of Tunneling.
>
>Moving 200kg of air is the domain of Teleport.
>Making people collapse from sudden vacuum is an NND EB vs. PD.
>
>So this is simple from Rules-guy's viewpoint:
>If something you are trying with teleport simulates
>another power, you don't get to do it.
>
>But from Role-man's point of view, a Teleporter could do
>various schticks along the lines of "moving objects/people
>around". I highly recommend the article on Teleport
>on the Haymaker web-site. And if the character concept
>you're describing can do various things, get a VPP with
>transport limited SFX, and then go to town moving various
>things around, wreaking havoc.
>==
>Elliott aka The Egyptoid
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:15:22 -0500
From: Brian Wawrow <bwawrow@mondello.toronto.fmco.com>
Subject: RE: Advantaged Move Through
Is that right? I don't have my book here at work with me so I can't check it
myself. You're saying that an HTH attack works just like an HKA in that you
can only add more dice from strength until you double the DC's of the
attack? As in 5D6 HtH will only ever do 10D6? I've always been under the
impression that HtH dice just added to your inate strength attack.
Okay, if that's the case, I agree.
BRI
] I never said you could. Check my example again. Maximum added DCs from
] STR = base DCs in HTH or HKA. Duh. But my original point
] remains the same:
] any Advantages bought on that HA or HKA also apply to the
] added STR, up to
] that maximum.
]
] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
] Michael D. Hayden -- mhayden@silverhammer.org --
] http://silverhammer.org/
] Hey, I use Procmail with
] Spam Bouncer, so spam away! (^_^)
] "What you are about to see is real. These are not actors;
] they're directors."
]
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 00:41:24 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: RE: Advantaged Move Through
>Is that right? I don't have my book here at work with me so I can't check it
>myself. You're saying that an HTH attack works just like an HKA in that you
>can only add more dice from strength until you double the DC's of the
>attack? As in 5D6 HtH will only ever do 10D6? I've always been under the
>impression that HtH dice just added to your inate strength attack.
>
The cap is a recommended limit in heroic scale games...but it's also
recommended you _not_ cap it in superheroic ones.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 11:53:59 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: House Rule: Please Comment
At 07:51 PM 12/20/98 -0500, you wrote:
>I know this isn't book-legal, and don't care. What I'm interested
>in is comments on balance.
>
>When a character with Mind Control (and possibly Mental
>Illusions) exceeds the required target number with his attack
>dice, the target gets an immediate "breakout" roll as normal.
>If this fails, the next opportunity for a breakout roll is determined
>by amount of the attacking character's success. For every 5 points
>of effect over the target number, the target creature's second breakout
>roll is pushed back one step on the time chart.
>
>Whaddya think?
It's an interesting idea. If you did this, I would say he gets a chance to
break out every time that interval occurs, instead of the current rule
where if you fail your 5 minute breakout you have to wait an hour, then 5,
then a day, etc.
Joe
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 00:40:00 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: House Rule: Please Comment
>NND is all or nothing; Energy Blast is not.
Sure is. Except for stunning, it either knocks a target out or does nothing
but accumulate. There's no difference in the game mechanics between someone
with 40 stun pips left and 1 stun pip.
However, you missed my point; the multiple levels of mind control are all or
nothing because they either work or they don't; there's no difference
between missing by one point or by a country mile.
>
>WS> Even worse, since you can't just drop back to a lower effect if you
>WS> don't chose it when you launch the attack. If you could decide what
>WS> order to give _after_ you found out how much over the Ego value of the
>WS> target the Mind Control result was, then that'd be a meaningful
>WS> reference.
>
>That would be very un-four-colorish.
I don't see that at all; there's no sign in the source works of mind
controllers having to play guessing games to see if they're going to be able
to effect a target or not.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 06:01:56 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: House Rule: Please Comment
At 10:59 PM 12/20/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>"SN" == Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com> writes:
>
>SN> The "Range of Success" thread got me to thinking about
>SN> the "All-or-Nothing" style of Hero Mental Powers.
>
>Umm... they are not "all or nothing". Or has everyone forgotten the effect
>levels tables?
The effect levels tables only state how difficult it is to get a certain
effect with Mental Powers. You still either succeed or you don't -- going
strictly with the HSR rules, there is no partial success, as one might have
using the options on pages 104-109 of TUM.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 05:58:41 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: House Rule: Please Comment
At 07:51 PM 12/20/98 -0500, Scott Nolan wrote:
>When a character with Mind Control (and possibly Mental
>Illusions) exceeds the required target number with his attack
>dice, the target gets an immediate "breakout" roll as normal.
>If this fails, the next opportunity for a breakout roll is determined
>by amount of the attacking character's success. For every 5 points
>of effect over the target number, the target creature's second breakout
>roll is pushed back one step on the time chart.
>
>Whaddya think?
While the basic idea isn't a bad one, I think that the application is
just a tad too cheap, to my mind at least. 60 points gets 12d6 Mind
Control with normal breakouts, or 11d6 with the second breakout a minute
later, or 10d6 with the second breakout five minutes later, etc.
I'd lean toward borrowing a rule from Adjustment Powers, and making the
Time Chart steps cost a +1/4 Advantage each.
I could be convinced otherwise, though. :-]
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:48:35 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Power set question
At 08:06 AM 12/21/98 -0600, Dr. Nuncheon wrote:
>On Sat, 19 Dec 1998, qts wrote:
>
>> How about
>>
>> 32 EC: Major Shadow Powers (40 Base) Always On (-1/4)
>> 32 Desolid 0 End Persistent, Always On
>> 40 2d6 Drain vs Body [20] 0 End + 1/2 Rec 5/5 hrs +1, ARW +2
>> (90 Active) Always On -1/4
>>
>> 15 EC: Minor Shadow Powers
>> 15 Unlife Support: full.
>> 15 10" flight x32 NCM
>
>Does this bug anyone else except me? I mean, two ECs, one for 'Major
>Shadow Powers' and one for 'Minor Shadow Powers'? ECs are great as a
>reward for good character concept, but having two of them for the /same/
>character concept is, IMHO, going a little bit too far into the world of
>minmaxing.
I think it's a good idea. Two -different- EC's, like "Fire Powers" and
"Flight
Powers"
would be bad, but Major and Minor seem okay to me.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The lover knows more about absolute good and
universal beauty than any logician or theologian,
unless the latter, too, be lovers in disguise."
George Santayana
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scott C. Nolan
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:28:20 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: Re: House Rule: Please Comment
At 05:58 AM 12/21/98 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 07:51 PM 12/20/98 -0500, Scott Nolan wrote:
>>When a character with Mind Control (and possibly Mental
>>Illusions) exceeds the required target number with his attack
>>dice, the target gets an immediate "breakout" roll as normal.
>>If this fails, the next opportunity for a breakout roll is determined
>>by amount of the attacking character's success. For every 5 points
>>of effect over the target number, the target creature's second breakout
>>roll is pushed back one step on the time chart.
>>
>>Whaddya think?
>
> While the basic idea isn't a bad one, I think that the application is
>just a tad too cheap, to my mind at least. 60 points gets 12d6 Mind
>Control with normal breakouts, or 11d6 with the second breakout a minute
>later, or 10d6 with the second breakout five minutes later, etc.
> I'd lean toward borrowing a rule from Adjustment Powers, and making the
>Time Chart steps cost a +1/4 Advantage each.
> I could be convinced otherwise, though. :-]
This defeats the purpose, which is to give a range of results. This would
still result in an all-or-nothing power.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The lover knows more about absolute good and
universal beauty than any logician or theologian,
unless the latter, too, be lovers in disguise."
George Santayana
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scott C. Nolan
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:52:33 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@otd.com>
Subject: TUV take note!
Here you go Bob, just the thing for TUV!
http://cnn.com/WORLD/africa/9812/11/flame.thrower.car/
Michael Surbrook / susano@otd.com
http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:30:12 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: HTAs n stuff
At 10:15 AM 12/21/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Is that right? I don't have my book here at work with me so I can't check it
>myself. You're saying that an HTH attack works just like an HKA in that you
>can only add more dice from strength until you double the DC's of the
>attack? As in 5D6 HtH will only ever do 10D6? I've always been under the
>impression that HtH dice just added to your inate strength attack.
>
>Okay, if that's the case, I agree.
On a related concept, I have always had the doubling effect continue, so
that you can double the base HKA with strength (+1DC/5 STR, so a 3 DC
attack or 1D6 HKA becomes 2D6 at most with 15 STR). But you can double
this again with 1DC for each 10 strength. Then you can double it again for
each 20 STR... and so on.
This allows Thor to throw a dagger with his 95 STR (he has his gauntlets
on) very hard:
base: 1/2 D6 or 2DC at 5 STR (STR MIN for a dagger in my games)
1D6 or 3DC at 10 STR
D6+1 or 4 DC at 15 STR (this is the usual max, now it takes 10 STR/DC)
1 1/2D6 or 5 DC at 25 STR
2D6 or 6 DC at 35 STR
2D6+1 or 7 DC at 45 STR
2 1/2D6 or 8 DC at 55 STR (this is the second doubling max, now it
takes 20 STR/DC)
3D6 or 9 DC at 75 STR
3D6+1 or 10 DC at 95 STR
so with a dagger, he does an average of 11 BOD, which sort of makes sense
if you can lift an oil tanker over your head. It seems to be pretty
balanced and doesnt make the attacks rediculously powerful, but also keeps
it believable, why COULDNT an Ogre do more than a normal man with a dagger??
- ----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:59:06 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: Re: HTAs n stuff
At 10:30 AM 12/21/98 -0800, Christopher Taylor wrote:
[SNIP}
>so with a dagger, he does an average of 11 BOD, which sort of makes sense
>if you can lift an oil tanker over your head. It seems to be pretty
>balanced and doesnt make the attacks rediculously powerful, but also keeps
>it believable, why COULDNT an Ogre do more than a normal man with a dagger??
Just playing Devil's Advocate, but perhaps because when you can punch through
steel plates with your bare fists, having a tiny point bit of metal in your
hand doesn't
add anything to that? The amount of damage Ogre would do with his hands would
pulverize the dagger.
Although your house rule makes a certain amount of sense for throwing.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The lover knows more about absolute good and
universal beauty than any logician or theologian,
unless the latter, too, be lovers in disguise."
George Santayana
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scott C. Nolan
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:31:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Ell Egyptoid <egyptoid@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: House Rule: Please Comment
> a Mind Control power and order a character to do something he
> is against doing, I have to reach the +20 level or I fail.
> That's all or nothing.
And now fit your Mental Powers underneath a 60 or 75 point
Active Limit. See if you can build a mentalist worth a damn.
Give yourself a 60 point active Limit and you'll have
a mentalist that can't even command ants to go to a picnic,
much less have a "range of success"...
Oops. Sorry, didn't mean to redirect the thread. Again.
==
Elliott aka The Egyptoid
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:53:07 -0600
From: "McBride, Sean" <Sean_McBride@ATKEARNEY.com>
Subject: RE: HTAs n stuff
Just a newbie observation, but the dagger damage would be AP, and the Ogre's
fists wouldn't be, would it?
Sean McBride, CNA
Technical Assistant - A.T.Kearney, Toronto
Ontario, Canada
VOICE: (416)596-3757
PAGER: (888)293-7243 PIN:011-5550
Sean.McBride@ATKearney.com
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one. - Albert
Einstein
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott Nolan [SMTP:nolan@erols.com]
> Sent: Monday, December 21, 1998 2:59 PM
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: Re: HTAs n stuff
>
> At 10:30 AM 12/21/98 -0800, Christopher Taylor wrote:
>
> [SNIP}
>
> >so with a dagger, he does an average of 11 BOD, which sort of makes sense
> >if you can lift an oil tanker over your head. It seems to be pretty
> >balanced and doesnt make the attacks rediculously powerful, but also
> keeps
> >it believable, why COULDNT an Ogre do more than a normal man with a
> dagger??
>
> Just playing Devil's Advocate, but perhaps because when you can punch
> through
> steel plates with your bare fists, having a tiny point bit of metal in
> your
> hand doesn't
> add anything to that? The amount of damage Ogre would do with his hands
> would
> pulverize the dagger.
>
> Although your house rule makes a certain amount of sense for throwing.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> "The lover knows more about absolute good and
> universal beauty than any logician or theologian,
> unless the latter, too, be lovers in disguise."
> George Santayana
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Scott C. Nolan
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 15:40:49 -0600 (CST)
From: Brats Incorporated <brat-inc@avalon.net>
Subject: Magic Lab
In my current champaign, one of my PC's is a mage. Recently he decided to
start constructing a magic Lab. unfortunately, he's not to certain what he
wants in it. He knows that he wants magical texts, alchemy gear, spell
components and the occasional item.
Other than that though, he's not too sure what else he would need to have go
into a magic lab.
So I pose the question. What does everything should go into a magic lab???
Visit us at http://www.avalon.net/~brat-inc/ ....
"In the words of Socrates... I drank what?" ... Real Genius
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:41:50 -0600 (CST)
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Subject: Re: range of success (long)
> From: Rick Jones <rick@blkbox.com>
>
> I generally fudge it with how much they made their skill roll by.
Yep, or how badly they blew it. I suppose you could tie in any
modifications to the roll *ahead* *of* *time* to adjust. For instance,
to use Egyptoid's example of using the skill roll to adjust how lona an
an action takes.
"this should normally take an hour to do, if you make your skill roll
by 2 or better, you can do it in half an hour..."
> From: "Jesse Thomas" <haerandir@hotmail.com>
>
> About the only thing I can think of that even addresses this issue (in
> the BBB, anyway) is the "Extraordinary Skills" rule on p. 19. Still, GM
> intervention is pretty much the way things seem to work. Unfortunately,
> that doesn't really allow for the "Wow, I rolled a 3! How cool is
> that?" syndrome.
Never having had much luck with dice, I've always really hated any kind
of critical fumble rules, and to a lesser extent, critical success rules.
In my opinion, they're both a real crock when the NPC's don't use them as
well. So, I'm not talking about criticals necessarily, though if there's
a system in place for range of success or range of failure, you're certainly
going to see some results for rolling a '3' when all you needed was an '11'.
> Most games don't handle this very well. Even in a
> game like Shadowrun, Vampire, or Feng Shui, the GM has to
Funny you should mention Shadowrun. One of the reasons I asked the initial
question is because I've been thinking about modelling the Shadowrun magic
system using Hero. Specifically, a spell effect being dependent on how
well the spell is cast. (Note that I consider this to be a separate matter
from how well you roll the damage dice.)
> From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com>
>
> But Curt isn't talking only critical successes or failures. He's talking
> graduated results other than "yes" or "no". Something like a partial success
> or half damage.
>
Right. Or less time, or more time to perform the skill. Or more or less
effect out of a power.
> From: "Steven J. Owens" <puff@netcom.com>
>
> Yup, and this points up one of the fundamental flaws with mental
> powers (mostly centered on mind control, mental illusions &
> telepathy), in my opinion. Champions has a physical dimension to
> combat, with many variances (energy vs. physical defense and attacks)
> and lots of tactical options and nifty rules.
>
> Mental powers add a whole separate dimension to the game but
> without nearly as much in the way of variations and tactical options.
> Mental powers aren't balanced. Power Defense-oriented powers (maybe
> call them metapowers? :-) like transform are in a similar boat, though
> they don't tend to get nearly as much attention because they aren't
> seen as much...
>
I agree. I think that mental powers are written as they are, primarily for
purposes of play balance. My biggest thing with the more subtle mental
powers (i.e. non Ego blasts) is that my players always seemed to just make
their initial ego roll and totally shrug a 40 point attack. Kind of a
disincentive to use mentalists..
> From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
>
> "Partial success" = "you get an E for effort, but you still failed".
>
> And as for "glancing blows", that is what happens when you roll crap for
> damage.
No difference on a computer programming attempt between "your program
works for the expected range of data" and "your program works for all
possible inputs and it's not possible for a user to input anything that
will cause the program to crash" ? Or would you expect the player using
the skill to define how crash-proof the program should be ? In which case,
what if she was going for ultimately robust and blew the roll by 1 ?
Coming from the perspective of trying to model a magic system,
I'd like to disassociate the actual damage die roll from the skill roll,
perhaps by assigning a fixed damage. So, instead of a fireball that
does 4D6 killing damage, with a range of 4 to 24 body damage, and then
saying that "if you roll crappy damage, then your spell-casting sucked";
you'd assign a fixed damage to the fireball and the actual damage would
be proportional to how well the skill roll was made.
> From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
>
> I disagree, at least in part, and give four counter-examples: Critical
> Rolls, Rolls made by 10 or more, the dice rolled for damage, and Side
> Effects.
The only official Critical Roll rule I'm aware of is that an 18 always fails.
If I remember properly, this is mentioned under the skills section, so I
could argue whether it's applicable to combat as well or not. Rolls by 10
or less are entirely up to the GM's adjudication for results. On damage
dice, please see my previous response to Rat. I haven't looked at Side
Effects in quite a while, but if I remember properly, they are all or
nothing. That is, you did not achieve the effect you want, ALL of this
side effect happens. I suppose you could define your side effect to be
proportional to how badly you blew your skill roll, and then decrease the
limitation value for the Side Effect... Certainly something to think about.
Curt Hicks
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 15:59:41 -0600 (CST)
From: Brats Incorporated <brat-inc@avalon.net>
Subject: Re: House Rule: Please Comment
>When a character with Mind Control (and possibly Mental
>Illusions) exceeds the required target number with his attack
>dice, the target gets an immediate "breakout" roll as normal.
>If this fails, the next opportunity for a breakout roll is determined
>by amount of the attacking character's success. For every 5 points
>of effect over the target number, the target creature's second breakout
>roll is pushed back one step on the time chart.
>
>Whaddya think?
Uhh... no.
The way that it works is this. I mind control Dave to eat. I beat Dave's
Ego+MD by 20.
Next phase, Dave gets a chance to break free. Dave makes a EGO roll with a
- -4 modifier.
Example : success rate divided by 5... // 20/5=4..... Dave makes his EGO
roll and fails.
12 seconds later or 1 turn later, Dave gets to try his EGO roll again at
- -4/+1 = -3. From there on, you just go down the time chart until the
character succeeds.
this rant was brought to you via the BBB page 79, first colum example. With
a few modifications.
Visit us at http://www.avalon.net/~brat-inc/ ....
"In the words of Socrates... I drank what?" ... Real Genius
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 15:48:29 -0600 (CST)
From: Brats Incorporated <brat-inc@avalon.net>
Subject: New Skill: Meditation
Ok. I have this nutty mentallist in the group who is dead set
on having a meditation skill. Now I've asked the character to describe
how the skill works, and this is what he gave me, in my own words of course
"it's a skill that you use outside of combat." : Fair enough
"It allows you to focus your mind." : Ok
"It allows to to go over a scene and catch things that you previously
missed." : Hmmm..
My reaction to the player was this, "well it sounds like you want a skill
that is a combination of deduction, enhanced perception and post cognitive
powers. Uhhh, no."
So, was it bad o me to have denied such a request?
I do have some alternatives though.
Buy more deduction was my first recommendation. But the PC was
against this one. Said that it went against the concept of the character.
Needless to say, I was stumped until a few nights ago, when I
thought to myself, "hell. best thing for the character would be to allow it
to have post cognitive powers.
So, should I allow the character to have post cog or not?
D-
Visit us at http://www.avalon.net/~brat-inc/ ....
"In the words of Socrates... I drank what?" ... Real Genius
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 17:04:33 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: Re: House Rule: Please Comment
At 03:59 PM 12/21/98 -0600, Brats Incorporated wrote:
>
>>When a character with Mind Control (and possibly Mental
>>Illusions) exceeds the required target number with his attack
>>dice, the target gets an immediate "breakout" roll as normal.
>>If this fails, the next opportunity for a breakout roll is determined
>>by amount of the attacking character's success. For every 5 points
>>of effect over the target number, the target creature's second breakout
>>roll is pushed back one step on the time chart.
>>
>>Whaddya think?
>
>Uhh... no.
>
>The way that it works is this. I mind control Dave to eat. I beat Dave's
>Ego+MD by 20.
>Next phase, Dave gets a chance to break free. Dave makes a EGO roll with a
>-4 modifier.
>Example : success rate divided by 5... // 20/5=4..... Dave makes his EGO
>roll and fails.
>12 seconds later or 1 turn later, Dave gets to try his EGO roll again at
>-4/+1 = -3. From there on, you just go down the time chart until the
>character succeeds.
>
>this rant was brought to you via the BBB page 79, first colum example. With
>a few modifications.
Sigh. Here we see the dangers of oversnipping. My original message
included the comments that this was a house rule, and specifically:
"I know this isn't book-legal and don't care."
But thanks for playing.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The lover knows more about absolute good and
universal beauty than any logician or theologian,
unless the latter, too, be lovers in disguise."
George Santayana
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scott C. Nolan
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 16:09:07 -0600 (CST)
From: Brats Incorporated <brat-inc@avalon.net>
Subject: Re: House Rule: Please Comment
>>Umm... they are not "all or nothing". Or has everyone forgotten the effect
>>levels tables?
>
>No, but obviously, that's not what I'm talking about. Those -are- "all or
>nothing", because if the effect doesn't reach the desired level, nothing
>happens.
>
>If I have a Mind Control power and order a character to do something he
>is against doing, I have to reach the +20 level or I fail. That's all or
>nothing.
Yes and no.
If you use mind control and force a character to say, kill his beloved
teammate that is also his lover, you have a few items that can be taken in
to account.
First you have to beat the character's EGO+MD(if any)+20 points.
To make it more difficult, the character has a CVK at total. For
this the GM can add on a additional difficulty for the mind control to work.
Say... +15
Third. If the character actually has the disad of romantic interest
with the person that he is to shoot, you ould add on an additional +5.
So in total to have to beat EGO + 20 points
+ Mental Defense
+15 for the CVK
+5 for the romantic
interest.
So in total you are looking at a EGO + MD + 40 to get someone to
shoot their lover.
Mind you now, the situation changes with each person.
I the character is say a villian and has a psych lim where he is FOR
killing people, then you might give that haracter a minus to the roll.
It all varies per situation I have found.
*shrug*
Visit us at http://www.avalon.net/~brat-inc/ ....
"In the words of Socrates... I drank what?" ... Real Genius
------------------------------
Date: 21 Dec 1998 17:55:31 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Magic Lab
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
"BI" == Brats Incorporated <brat-inc@avalon.net> writes:
BI> So I pose the question. What does everything should go into a magic
BI> lab???
Laboratories are a game mechanic. What is in them is a special effect.
That said, what kind of magic is he doing? An alchemist and a diabolist
would have radically different laboratories.
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v0.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: For info finger gcrypt@ftp.guug.de
iD8DBQE2ftHjgl+vIlSVSNkRAuVsAJ0XQhJyrygMhlmLFYsLNzU0lyFJcACfaQAt
FJm97LqagX4ZSkaD8+KI1Hs=
=592i
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and
GPG Key: same as my PGP 5 (DH) key \ kept under refrigeration.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:11:51 PST
From: "Jesse Thomas" <haerandir@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Magic Lab
On Mon, 21 Dec 1998 Brats Incorporated wrote:
<snip>
>So I pose the question. What does everything should go into a magic
lab???
Well, in addition to the afore-mentioned alchemical tools, books, and
spell components, I recommend some of the following:
1. A pentacle for any sorts of Summoning you may require. Ideally
engraved into the floor and inlaid with precious metals or gems with
"magical" properties.
2. A talking owl/skull/brass head or whatever, built with the computer
rules. Must be sarcastic and/or smarmy, or what's the point?
3. An automaton for handling dangerous alchemical experiments.
4. Some sort of scrying device. Mirror, crystal ball, water bowl, or
whatever.
5. In addition to traditional spellbooks, your library should include
histories, language texts, catalogs of names, religious texts,
mythology, legends, songs, maps, etc. Never know where the important
clue that will allow your mage to devise his new spell or research an
opponent will be squirreled away...
6. A vault for storing all of those valuable spell components. Perhaps
with a preservation spell or 3 on it to keep the perishable items from
spoiling.
7. Lots 'n' lots of candles, torches, lanterns, etc. Preferably of at
least a dozen different styles & varieties.
8. A small forge, for metalworking and alchemical procedures.
9. A great big iron cauldron. No telling what that'll come in handy
for.
10. One or more surly/overly curious/clumsy/overeager/flighty
apprentices. Endless sources of fun to be had with these guys.
11. At least one door or window that doesn't serve any apparent
function. Either the door opens out over empty space, or the window
affords an exquisite view of a stone wall. Anything to add an air of
mystery and become a plot hook for later.
12. Well, there appears to be no 12. Hope some of my ideas prove
helpful.
Jesse Thomas
haerandir@hotmail.com
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:45:41 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: House Rule: Please Comment
At 01:28 PM 12/21/98 -0500, Scott Nolan wrote:
>At 05:58 AM 12/21/98 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>At 07:51 PM 12/20/98 -0500, Scott Nolan wrote:
>
>>>When a character with Mind Control (and possibly Mental
>>>Illusions) exceeds the required target number with his attack
>>>dice, the target gets an immediate "breakout" roll as normal.
>>>If this fails, the next opportunity for a breakout roll is determined
>>>by amount of the attacking character's success. For every 5 points
>>>of effect over the target number, the target creature's second breakout
>>>roll is pushed back one step on the time chart.
>>>
>>>Whaddya think?
>>
>> While the basic idea isn't a bad one, I think that the application is
>>just a tad too cheap, to my mind at least. 60 points gets 12d6 Mind
>>Control with normal breakouts, or 11d6 with the second breakout a minute
>>later, or 10d6 with the second breakout five minutes later, etc.
>> I'd lean toward borrowing a rule from Adjustment Powers, and making the
>>Time Chart steps cost a +1/4 Advantage each.
>> I could be convinced otherwise, though. :-]
>
>This defeats the purpose, which is to give a range of results. This would
>still result in an all-or-nothing power.
My apologies; I misread the original proposal! :#] Okay, then; now
I've gone back and re-read it, and know what you're actually trying to do.
If you're not using the incremental options from TUM, then this might be
a workable option. I'd make it a matter of GM's preference to either make
this the way Mind Control works normally, or charge a +1/4 Advantage for it.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 07:27:07 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: House Rule: Please Comment
>> a Mind Control power and order a character to do something he
>> is against doing, I have to reach the +20 level or I fail.
>> That's all or nothing.
>
>And now fit your Mental Powers underneath a 60 or 75 point
>Active Limit. See if you can build a mentalist worth a damn.
>
>Give yourself a 60 point active Limit and you'll have
>a mentalist that can't even command ants to go to a picnic,
>much less have a "range of success"...
Not strictly true, depending on how characters are normally built locally.
After all, a 60 point Mind Control is 12D6, which expects 42; if your
targets don't expect an Ego + Mental Defense of 22 or better (which
non-Egoists certainly don't locally) you ought to be able to get the +20 on
most of them, and the +30 on some. What puts the sugar in the gas tank is
that they get that immediate breakout roll. Which is why I don't give it
to them until the _end_ of the first phase after they've been controlled.
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #103
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