Digest Archives Vol 1 Issue 115
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 1998 10:35 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #115
champ-l-digest Wednesday, December 30 1998 Volume 01 : Number 115
In this issue:
Re: GENKI (The Dark Devil)
Re: Mental Defense Question
Re: Mental Defense Question
Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements
Re: Mental Defense Question
Re: CHAR: Anita Carstairs (was Stupid Precog Tricks)
Re: Mental Defense Question
Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements
Re: Skill Levels and DEX
Re: CHAR: Anita Carstairs (was Stupid Precog Tricks)
Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements
Re: Skill Levels and DEX
Re: GENKI (The Dark Devil)
How Combat Skills Levels Actually Work
Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements
Re: Mental Defense Question
Re: Mental Defense Question
Re: CHAR: Anita Carstairs (was Stupid Precog Tricks)
Re: Mental Defense Question
Re: Mental Defense Question
Re: Skill Levels and DEX
Re: Mental Defense Question
Re: Skill Levels and DEX
Need info on REALLY OLD Hero products
Re: DCV Skill Levels (was Char: Anita Carstairs)
Re: Mental Defense Question
Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements
Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements
Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements
Re: CHAR: Anita Carstairs (was Stupid Precog Tricks)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 18:45:45
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: GENKI (The Dark Devil)
On Tue, 29 Dec 1998 16:50:40 -0600, Logan Darklighter wrote:
>Here's a multipower version:
>
>Operator Neurolink System: (OIF, Bulky -1)
>Multipower (30 Pt Pool) (Real Cost 15)
>u - +5 DEX, Doesn't Add to Figured (-1/2) (1)
>u - +1 SPD, Doesn't Add to Figured (-1/2) (1)
>u - +3 Levels with Weapons (1)
Stats in MPs never add to figured stats.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 18:55:49
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Mental Defense Question
On Wed, 30 Dec 1998 09:07:15 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> Here's another judgement call that I'd like everyone's feedback on.
> In a villain group I'm working up, the leader, a mentalist named
>Headmaster, has noticed that one of his subjects, Goth, is Vulnerable to
>mental powers. He wants to protect her from attacks by rival mentalists,
>so he does a bit of "Psychic Surgery" to give her some Mental Defense.
Vulnerability applies before Defenses...
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:39:33 -0800
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: Mental Defense Question
>The way I have it right now is a -1/4 Limitation, as
>Headmaster is quite prone to doing little bits of "Psychic Surgry" on all
>his subjects now and then.
There is only one problem I see with this: if Headmaster is only going to do
things to her that are beneficial for her, then it's not a Limitation, it's
more of an Advantage. If, on the other hand, he's also going to mess with
her mind, manipulate her, and perform darksome deeds to her psyche, it
certainly seems reasonable as a Limitation.
After all, they are her points. If he were buying Mental Defense Usable By
Others and wanted the back door, I'd have him take Personal Immunity on it.
But, since all he's doing is getting her to buy it, she deserves the cost
break as long as he's going to use his powers on her in a way she might want
to defend against.
JAJ, GP
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 18:52:44
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements
On Tue, 29 Dec 1998 13:23:21 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
>To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org&> Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
>Date: Tuesday, December 29, 1998 10:52 AM
>Subject: Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements
>
>
>>On Mon, 28 Dec 1998 15:41:22 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>>
>>>OK, I want a robotic character who has extra eyes inside of his head. If
>you
>>>flash him, he extends new ones.
>>>
>>>Now, write it under the rules as they exist now.
>>
>>Simple Hardened Flash Defense (but lots of it) with N easily
>>recoverable charges (if you only have one extra set of eyes, you're
>>stuffed if you get flashed twice in quick succession). Further you
>>could say that if a Flash exceeds the FD, it's so powerful that it's
>>got through and affected all the spare eyes.
>
>
>If the character is a small sentient tank, and his extra "eyes" are stored
>behind 8 cm laminate armor plate, how much FD do you need to protect his
>eyes? Especially as humans can, in theory, just cover their eyes, or even
>close them?
If the Flash is sufficiently powerful and of the correct SFX, then
covering or closing your eyes will do no good. Here's a test: close
your eyes, and look towards a bright light. Notice how you can still
see light. Make the light sufficiently bright and your eyelids will NOT
protect you. This even applies to steel - pump sufficient (and we're
talking a LOT) energy in, and it becomes transparent. Further, steel is
much more transparent to gamma rays.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:15:51 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Mental Defense Question
- ---Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> wrote:
>
> Here's another judgement call that I'd like everyone's feedback on.
> In a villain group I'm working up, the leader, a mentalist named
> Headmaster, has noticed that one of his subjects, Goth, is
Vulnerable to
> mental powers. He wants to protect her from attacks by rival
mentalists,
> so he does a bit of "Psychic Surgery" to give her some Mental Defense.
> Now, I'm mostly hand-waving the Psychic Surgery (though
Headmaster does
> have the appropriate Transform BOECV); what I'm wondering about is the
> Mental Defense itself, since Headmaster wants to be able to get past
it
> himself. Essentially, on Goth's character sheet it's Mental
Defense, not
> vs Headmaster. The way I have it right now is a -1/4 Limitation, as
> Headmaster is quite prone to doing little bits of "Psychic Surgry"
on all
> his subjects now and then.
> If it were just for my own campaign, I'd probably just hand-wave
it, or
> at any rate not worry about it too much, but this one is for
publication so
> it should be built in a way that will be satisfactory to as much of
the
> Hero community at large as possible. For that reason, I'm asking the
> advice of the list.
Hmmm, you could come at from the other side:
Buy Headmaster "Mental Defense, Usable By Others, Personal Immunity."
It's a thought.
Other than that, your plan of simply giving Goth "Mental Def, not vs
Headmaster" probably is about a clean a method as any.
==
=======================================
John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org>
Keeper of the Champions / Hero System mailing
list. http://www.sysabend.org/champions
=======================================
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 18:43:51
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Anita Carstairs (was Stupid Precog Tricks)
On Tue, 29 Dec 1998 12:40:06 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
>
>
>>On Mon, 28 Dec 1998 12:18:20 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
><snip>
>>>Not in the errata, but in the rules themselves. Levels only add to DCV vs
>>>Ranged attacks (as opposed to HTH), if the levels are 8 pt. Levels, 10 pt.
>>>Levels, or 5 pt. Levels bought "DCV Only".
>>
>>Yes, and then the rules go on to say, 'Finally, the 5 pt CSL is the
>>smallest CSL that can be bought with Limitations.'
>>
>>Not to apply a Limitation here makes no sense - you could have +6 DEX
>>[18], Affects DCV Only -1 1/2 (possibly even -2) for 8 (or 6) pts.
>
>
>Absolutely not. If you have a Skill, Talent, or Power that you want, you
>cannot take a more powerful version of a Skill, Talent, or Power, put a
>limit on it, and thus create a cheaper version that duplicates the weaker
>version but for fewer points. There already exists a method spelled out for
>creating Combat Levels "DCV Only, works vs Ranged attacks". You can't create
>the exact same effect for cheaper by limiting more powerful Combat Levels.
Err, this is what I'm saying! Except you seem to have understood the
reverse. You take a 5 pt CSL, then to make it DCV only, you apply a
Limitation, as per the HSR.
>Furthermore, a -1 1/2 or -2 Limitation is way overboard. "Only at night" is
>only -1/2. A +1 w/ HTH combat is 5 pts. If I used your limitation, I could
>buy +1 HTH, DCV Only (-1 1/2) and +1 HTH, OCV Only (-1 1/2) (since OCV and
>DCV are pretty much equal in value), and thus buy a +1 to my OCV and DCV
>simultaneously for only 4 pts.
Given the campaign setting, I adjudged that combat would be markedly
less than normal, therefore CSLs are much less use, thus deserving a
greater Limitation.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 15:03:52 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@otd.com>
Subject: Re: Mental Defense Question
On Wed, 30 Dec 1998, qts wrote:
> > Here's another judgement call that I'd like everyone's feedback on.
> > In a villain group I'm working up, the leader, a mentalist named
> >Headmaster, has noticed that one of his subjects, Goth, is Vulnerable to
> >mental powers. He wants to protect her from attacks by rival mentalists,
> >so he does a bit of "Psychic Surgery" to give her some Mental Defense.
>
> Vulnerability applies before Defenses...
And *some* defense is better than *none*.
Michael Surbrook / susano@otd.com
http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion
------------------------------
Date: 30 Dec 1998 15:11:01 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
"F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
F> The number of different takes on EM that I have seen here indicate that
F> there is plenty of room for disagreement between players and GMs as to what
F> EM does or does not do. That line you quoted, though illuminating, does not
F> cover it in full.
Then go play GURPS or Fuzion or Storyteller if you want a game mechanic to
cover every eventuality.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
GPG Key: same as my PGP 5 (DH) key \ Earth, presumably from outer space.
------------------------------
Date: 30 Dec 1998 15:31:35 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Skill Levels and DEX
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"WS" == Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com> writes:
WS> First off, the above was supposed to read 'above the three point
WS> level'. Second, even in that case, you still have the issue that
WS> you've gotten one full OCV and DCV for the price that would otherwise
WS> get you two far narrower levels...and the former may also give you a
WS> skill roll/DEX roll bonus, and will certainly give you an initiative
WS> bonus.
We both start at 10 DEX. You spend 27 points to get a 18 DEX. Your OCV
and DCV are 6 (chances are we are both spending points on Speed so I will
not factor that in).
If I spend my 27 points on five 5-point skill levels and a 2-point level
just to round things out. My best OCV is 9, three points better than
yours.
If I spend my 27 points on three 8-point skill levels and a 3-point level
just to round out the points. My best OCV is 7, still one point better
than yours. Admittedly it is from the 3-pointer :).
It becomes more pronounced if your DEX is already close to a characteristic
maximum.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and
GPG Key: same as my PGP 5 (DH) key \ kept under refrigeration.
------------------------------
Date: 30 Dec 1998 16:25:40 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Anita Carstairs (was Stupid Precog Tricks)
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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"q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes:
q> Err, this is what I'm saying! Except you seem to have understood the
q> reverse. You take a 5 pt CSL, then to make it DCV only, you apply a
q> Limitation, as per the HSR.
Umm... there is no such limitation. A 5-point DCV-only CSL costs 5 points,
period.
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 15:20:16 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements
At 03:11 PM 12/30/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>"F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
>
>F> The number of different takes on EM that I have seen here indicate that
>F> there is plenty of room for disagreement between players and GMs as to
what
>F> EM does or does not do. That line you quoted, though illuminating, does
not
>F> cover it in full.
>
>Then go play GURPS or Fuzion or Storyteller if you want a game mechanic to
>cover every eventuality.
Chill out, Rat!
The Hero System has been continuously revised -- AND expanded -- with every
new edition of the game (including the upcoming 5th Ed) and in many of the
genre books, Ultimate series books, etc. Don't pretend the game is now, or
has been at any point in time, perfect or without room for improvement.
And please don't be so dismissive and rude to someone who's just trying to
push the envelope a little.
You had your say, and Filksinger listened to you. He isn't required to see
things the same way you do. Having a point of view, or a playing style,
that differs from yours doesn't make him wrong, and it doesn't mean he
shouldn't be playing it.
Damon
- ------------------
Things don't change. You change your way of looking, that's all.
-- Carlos Castaneda
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 15:41:59 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Skill Levels and DEX
At 03:31 PM 12/30/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>We both start at 10 DEX. You spend 27 points to get a 18 DEX. Your OCV
>and DCV are 6 (chances are we are both spending points on Speed so I will
>not factor that in).
Okay, what am I missing? He only has to spend 24 points to get an 18 DEX,
not 27.
>If I spend my 27 points on five 5-point skill levels and a 2-point level
>just to round things out. My best OCV is 9, three points better than
>yours.
You can't pay for these skill levels with 24 points; trading one of the
5-point levels for a second 2-point level stil makes your best OCV 9, however.
>If I spend my 27 points on three 8-point skill levels and a 3-point level
>just to round out the points. My best OCV is 7, still one point better
>than yours. Admittedly it is from the 3-pointer :).
Ah, but here you use up all 24 points just getting the 8-point levels; no
difference between your best OCV and Wayne's, because you can't pay for
that 3-point level.
Damon
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 15:20:43 -0600
From: "Logan D." <logand@cyberramp.net>
Subject: Re: GENKI (The Dark Devil)
- -----Original Message-----
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Wednesday, December 30, 1998 9:18 AM
Subject: Re: GENKI (The Dark Devil)
> One other problem that I've already mentioned is that this system will
>only affect *either* the pilot *or* the gunner, not both simultaneously.
Of
>course, a second can be purchased for +5 real points.
D'OH!! <<Slaps hand to forehead.>>
That's right! I forgot about that! The rewrite will have that as well as
doing away with the "Does not add to figured limitation.
>>> Maybe there should be a further limitation, "Only to match Genki's
stats".
>>> Applied to the Multipower pool cost as a whole so that the stats don't
>>> exceed that of the machine. But I don't know what it should
be. -1/2? -1/4?
>>>
>>> What do you think?
>>
>>That might work. Bob?
>
> Just offhand, I'd call it -1/2 in a superheroic campaign, or -1/4 in a
>heroic campaign (where Characteristics are generally lower and so the
>Limitation is less likely to come into play).
Hmmm. Hard call there. The BGC world is a combination Cyberpunk / Superhero
milieu. I think I'll err on the side of caution and go with the -1/4
limitation since this thing is supposed to be piloted by normals (or at
least heroic level characters only).
- -Logan
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- --
"God does not play dice with the universe; He plays an ineffable
game of His own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective
of any of the other players,* to being involved in an obscure and complex
version of poker in a pitch-dark room, with blank cards, for infinite
stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who
_smiles all the time_."
-Neil Gaimen and Terry Pratchett
_Good Omens_
*i.e., everybody.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- --
web page: http://www.cyberramp.net/~logand/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 13:49:59 PST
From: "Jesse Thomas" <haerandir@hotmail.com>
Subject: How Combat Skills Levels Actually Work
On Wed, 30 Dec 98 18:43:51 "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Err, this is what I'm saying! Except you seem to have understood the
>reverse. You take a 5 pt CSL, then to make it DCV only, you apply a
>Limitation, as per the HSR.
I don't know how I can put this more clearly than earlier attempts that
have been made. However, I will try:
She (Anita Carstairs, the character) is not in any way, shape, or form
buying combat skill levels with a Limitation of any sort. She is buying
ordinary 5-pt. skill levels. The rules note several different forms
that such levels can take. The form taken must be defined when they are
bought. Possible forms include: Levels with a broad group of attacks.
Levels with hand-to-hand combat. Levels with ranged combat. DCV levels
that apply in either h-to-h or ranged combat, regardless of weaponry.
Leah has proposed taking the fourth variety.
In a separate paragraph, the rules introduce an entirely unrelated
concept, the possibility of buying CSL's with Limitations. If Leah
bought 5-pt levels, defined them as the hand-to-hand variety, THEN said
they only applied to DCV, then she would be buying a 5-pt skill level
with a Limitation. This is not the case.
Basically, the 5-pt level, in all of it's forms, is an 8-pt level that
has been bought with a (-1/2) Limitation to represent that it comes into
play slightly more than half of the time. Either it only applies in
hand-to-hand or ranged combat, or it only applies to a group of weapons
your character will be using frequently, or it only applies to DCV. You
have been proposing that we (in effect) sanction the purchase of 8-pt
levels and buying the same Limitation on it twice.
Jesse Thomas
haerandir@hotmail.com
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 13:59:48 -0800
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements
>Then go play GURPS or Fuzion or Storyteller if you want a game mechanic to
>cover every eventuality.
Now, now: I don't think it's necessary to punish Filk just because he wants
some more detail to Eidetic Memory.
Well, he shouldn't be punished THAT much, anyway :)
Although, I don't have any real trouble with Fuz...OW! Who threw that?!
JAJ, GP
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 13:58:08 PST
From: "Jesse Thomas" <haerandir@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Mental Defense Question
On Wed, 30 Dec 1998 Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> wrote:
<snip>
>Essentially, on Goth's character sheet it's Mental Defense, not
>vs Headmaster. The way I have it right now is a -1/4 Limitation, as
>Headmaster is quite prone to doing little bits of "Psychic Surgry" on
>all his subjects now and then.
I don't think it should be too much of a problem. Just make sure that
it's clear that the Headmaster has sufficiently malevolent intent in
leaving this backdoor, and there should be no confusion about whether or
not it's a Limitation. After all, villains have fallings-out
frequently. If Goth (or the Headmaster) should decide to go legit, or
get greedy, they may wind up at loggerheads. If one of them falls in
love with a hero, this could lead to a long-term plotline, with a full
complement of betrayals, backstabbing, misunderstandings and recurring
nemesis villains. I like it.
Also, a note to the effect that someone with Powers & Skills from TUM
could fake the Headmaster's 'signature' and use the back door might be
apropos.
Jesse Thomas
haerandir@hotmail.com
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 13:50:40 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Mental Defense Question
At 06:55 PM 12/30/98, qts wrote:
>On Wed, 30 Dec 1998 09:07:15 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>> Here's another judgement call that I'd like everyone's feedback on.
>> In a villain group I'm working up, the leader, a mentalist named
>>Headmaster, has noticed that one of his subjects, Goth, is Vulnerable to
>>mental powers. He wants to protect her from attacks by rival mentalists,
>>so he does a bit of "Psychic Surgery" to give her some Mental Defense.
>
>Vulnerability applies before Defenses...
I recognize that, but it has nothing to do with the question.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 13:44:37 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Anita Carstairs (was Stupid Precog Tricks)
At 06:43 PM 12/30/98, qts wrote:
>Err, this is what I'm saying! Except you seem to have understood the
>reverse. You take a 5 pt CSL, then to make it DCV only, you apply a
>Limitation, as per the HSR.
What edition are you reading? Mine says that +1 to DCV *is* a 5-point
Combat Skill Level (3rd paragraph after the first example under CSL).
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 13:49:06 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Mental Defense Question
At 05:56 PM 12/30/98 +0000, Chris Hartjes wrote:
>I can't see why that sort of limiation would not be valid. If he has
>the necessary skills to do the Psychic Surgery, why wouldn't he be able
>to build in a back door for him to use.
The question isn't really whether it could be there or not, but whether
I've represented it properly.
>This also opens up other possibilities if other mentalists could "forge"
>Headmaster's mental signature and gain access to Goth...
This idea (also brought up by a couple other people) does indeed have
its share of potential! :-] I've already inserted it into her text
description....
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 13:56:09 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Mental Defense Question
At 10:39 AM 12/30/98 -0800, James Jandebeur wrote:
>>The way I have it right now is a -1/4 Limitation, as
>>Headmaster is quite prone to doing little bits of "Psychic Surgry" on all
>>his subjects now and then.
>
>There is only one problem I see with this: if Headmaster is only going to do
>things to her that are beneficial for her, then it's not a Limitation, it's
>more of an Advantage. If, on the other hand, he's also going to mess with
>her mind, manipulate her, and perform darksome deeds to her psyche, it
>certainly seems reasonable as a Limitation.
>
>After all, they are her points. If he were buying Mental Defense Usable By
>Others and wanted the back door, I'd have him take Personal Immunity on it.
>But, since all he's doing is getting her to buy it, she deserves the cost
>break as long as he's going to use his powers on her in a way she might want
>to defend against.
Well, Headmaster isn't going to be doing a bunch of awful things to her
mind; he's just going to be manipulating her thoughts to make her willing
to work as part of the group -- something that she, as a self-centered,
anarchistic nihilist of a loner, would be extremely opposed to.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 07:35:29 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Skill Levels and DEX
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>"WS" == Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com> writes:
>
>WS> First off, the above was supposed to read 'above the three point
>WS> level'. Second, even in that case, you still have the issue that
>WS> you've gotten one full OCV and DCV for the price that would otherwise
>WS> get you two far narrower levels...and the former may also give you a
>WS> skill roll/DEX roll bonus, and will certainly give you an initiative
>WS> bonus.
>
>We both start at 10 DEX. You spend 27 points to get a 18 DEX. Your OCV
>and DCV are 6 (chances are we are both spending points on Speed so I will
>not factor that in).
>'
Which is right where you make your mistake, since I'm _not_ assuming people
buying the limited DEX would buy the speed, which is why when I did my
calculation in the original message, I started off before anything else
assuming No Figured. At that point (or if you just sell the Speed back)
you are getting 13 DEX (and costing one less point) which is an 8 CV, only
one worse than the one you quote below but applies to _both_ sides, gives me
DEX rolls, gives me Skill rolls if I have any DEX skills, and gives me a
higher initiative.
>If I spend my 27 points on five 5-point skill levels and a 2-point level
>just to round things out. My best OCV is 9, three points better than
>yours.
>
>If I spend my 27 points on three 8-point skill levels and a 3-point level
>just to round out the points. My best OCV is 7, still one point better
>than yours. Admittedly it is from the 3-pointer :).
>
>It becomes more pronounced if your DEX is already close to a characteristic
>maximum.
You mean it becomes somewhat non-stupid when that's the case. Given that if
I took the above 27 points and applied No Figured Characteristics and Only
For CV, and the latter was even worth a -1/4 (which it's hard to argue it
isn't, outside the circular 'It's better than levels' argument) it nearly
manages your 9 CV on both sides, all the time.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 15:50:32 -0800
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: Mental Defense Question
> Well, Headmaster isn't going to be doing a bunch of awful things to her
>mind; he's just going to be manipulating her thoughts to make her willing
>to work as part of the group -- something that she, as a self-centered,
>anarchistic nihilist of a loner, would be extremely opposed to.
Close enough for a -1/4.
JAJ, GP
------------------------------
Date: 30 Dec 1998 19:05:28 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Skill Levels and DEX
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"D" == Damon <Michael> writes:
D> Okay, what am I missing? He only has to spend 24 points to get an 18
D> DEX, not 27.
My lousy math? :) Anyway, I think you should be able to figure out what I
mean. 2- and 3-point combat skill levels are very effective for their
cost, and 5-point levels still have more straight-line oomph than DEX.
[...]
D> Ah, but here you use up all 24 points just getting the 8-point levels;
D> no difference between your best OCV and Wayne's, because you can't pay
D> for that 3-point level.
Then my OCV is no worse for having spent my points on combat skill levels.
And 8-point levels become really useful in games where your DEX is limited
(which should be just about all of them; I mean, the Hulk with a DEX higher
than 18? I don't think so). Not to mention being all but 2 character
points away from being rolled into a 10-point overall level, which can be
used for a lot more than DEX can be.
Like I keep saying, depth vs. breadth.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and
GPG Key: same as my PGP 5 (DH) key \ kept under refrigeration.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 18:33:22 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Need info on REALLY OLD Hero products
If you've been playing Hero System since its debut, or nearly that
long...or if you're a Hero Games employee with an office in the dusty
archives basement...or, heck, if you're a super with Postcognition --
HEEEEEELLLP!
Below is a partial list of pre-4th edition Hero products. Note the ???
entries; these are products I can't identify. I assume they've been out of
print for years. I know my chances of finding them are about nil. Right
now, I just want to know what they *are*.
(x) HER006 Enemies II (source book)
( ) HER007 ???
(x) HER008 Champions II (rules source book)
(x) HER009 Deathstroke (adventure)
(x) HER010 Border Crossing (espionage adventure)
<snip>
(x) HER031 Wrath of the Seven Horsemen (adventure)
( ) HER032 Wings of the Valkyrie (adventure)
( ) HER033 ???
(x) HER034 Target: Hero (adventure)
(x) HER035 Robot Gladiators (mecha villain book)
( ) HER036 Enemies: Villainy Unbound (source book)
( ) HER037 ???
(x) HER038 V.O.I.C.E. of Doom (adventure) - 2 copies
( ) HER039 Red Doom (adventure)
(x) HER040 Scourge From the Deep (adventure)
(x) HER041 Spell Book - 2 copies
(x) HER042 Strike Force
( ) HER043 ???
(x) HER044 To Serve and Protect (adventure)
( ) HER045 ???
(x) HER046 CLOWN (source book)
(x) HER047 Neutral Ground (adventure)
(x) HER048 Atlas Unleashed (adventure)
( ) HER049 ???
(x) HER050 Star Hero (space genre book)
HER007 is *probably* "Espionage", though I haven't been able to confirm
that, and I don't know it that was the complete name of the product if so.
At some point in the dim past I heard rumors of, or saw listings for, these
three titles:
The Guardians
Shadow of the Vampire (or maybe S.H.A.D.O.W. of the Vampire, a DI adventure?)
Terror On Skywatch One
I can no longer recall where I saw or heard mention of these three titles.
The ??? items above may not even be books. They could be miniature
figures, hex maps or some other game accessory. Some of them may be books
that were planned but never published (I suspect this is true of HER049, in
particular, but I'd still be interested in knowing what it was *supposed*
to be, if possible).
Thanks in advance.
Damon
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 16:50:02 -0800
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: DCV Skill Levels (was Char: Anita Carstairs)
Jesse Thomas wrote:
> This is how I read it, also. As I understand it, the 5-pt. CSL can be
> used in several ways:
>
> 1) As a 'switchable' +1 to CV while you are using a particular group of
> attacks or maneuvers or whatever.
>
> 2) As a +1 'switchable' bonus that's only usable in H-to-H.
>
> 3) As a +1 'switchable' bonus that's only usable at range.
>
> 4) As a +1 bonus to DCV that is in effect at all times, regardless of
> whether or not you're using your martial arts or familiarity with US
> Infantry weapons or whatever. This also means it applies in both H-to-H
> and ranged combat, unlike the standard 'switchable' levels.
>
> So, Leah is correct. +2 DCV that applies all the time in all situations
> costs 10 pts. If (for instance) she bought +2 DCV only in H-to-H, then
> you could make a good case for it being H-to-H levels with a -1
> limitation, ultimately costing 5 pts. I beleive this what qts thought
> was happening.
I agree right to the end part. I would just have them buy two 3 point levels
for H2H DCV. I just hate putting Lims on skill levels. Minor difference I
know.
- -Mark
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 17:52:34 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven J. Owens" <puff@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Mental Defense Question
Bob Greenwade writes:
> In a villain group I'm working up, the leader, a mentalist named
> Headmaster, has noticed that one of his subjects, Goth, is Vulnerable to
> mental powers. He wants to protect her from attacks by rival mentalists,
> so he does a bit of "Psychic Surgery" to give her some Mental Defense.
> [...]
> Essentially, on Goth's character sheet it's Mental Defense, not
> vs Headmaster. The way I have it right now is a -1/4 Limitation, as
> Headmaster is quite prone to doing little bits of "Psychic Surgry" on all
> his subjects now and then.
So to sum it up, you're designing these NPCs and you're wondering
if it's appropriate for the lesser villain to have mental def, with
some sort of weakness that the head villain can exploit, as a
limitation. The head villain's powers are mostly for special effect,
i.e. he'll be credited with adding them, but it's just a game
justification.
My first impulse was to suggest, as many others did, some
variation on "Mental Def, usable by others, personal immunity
(headmaster is immune to it) with the power owned by HeadMaster and
then "loaned" to his pawns. This is especially appropriate if he does
this frequently, and it makes for a nifty character nuance.
However, since it's kosher to have agents and the like take disad
like "Psych lim: fanatically loyal" and get points for it, then by the
same logic it's okay for Headmaster's thugs to take Mental Def with a
limitation not usable vs. headmaster.
This whole area, relative effectiveness within the confines of a
character design or a group design, is one where the champions model
of "a limitation that doesn't limit isn't worth anything" is fairly
weak. My favorite example of taking this too far is where some people
would consider a physical limitation: Blind to be worth less if the
character had superpowers that compensate. I'm not decrying the
system, merely pointing out that sooner or later you have to exercise
some human judgement.
Steven J. Owens
puff@netcom.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 18:20:14 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
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>"F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
>
>F> I have run many campaigns. Almost always, eventually, I exceed the
maximum
>F> expected limit somewhere. With some GMs, this guarantees a "Sorry, I
know
>F> the SFX say you are immune, but you didn't buy enough Flash Defense."
>
>Now you are doing it on purpose.
Doing what, exactly? I rather doubt that you are correct. since I can only
guess at what you mean, and most of my guesses I would find at least mildly
insulting, I will reserve judgement until I know what you are saying.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 18:44:57 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
<snip>
>
>Then go play GURPS or Fuzion or Storyteller if you want a game mechanic to
>cover every eventuality.
Whatever happened to "HERO can simulate virtually anything"?
Besides which, I am not asking here for a new mechanic. I am asking for a
description of EM that avoided disagreements as to what it does or does not
do, so that the rules clearly define what EM does and does not grant. Since
the people on this list disagree as to what is and is not included, the
present description is evidently not clear enough.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 18:38:59 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Selective Senses and Powers/Percise Measurements
From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
>On Tue, 29 Dec 1998 13:23:21 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
<snip>
>If the Flash is sufficiently powerful and of the correct SFX, then
>covering or closing your eyes will do no good. Here's a test: close
>your eyes, and look towards a bright light. Notice how you can still
>see light. Make the light sufficiently bright and your eyelids will NOT
>protect you. This even applies to steel - pump sufficient (and we're
>talking a LOT) energy in, and it becomes transparent. Further, steel is
>much more transparent to gamma rays.
Yes, but that still doesn't change the point. If Tank is made of steel, and
exposed to enough light that he is flashed right through his 8cm armor, then
he is vaporized anyway. Furthermore, to simulate that level of Flash
Defense, you would need Flash Defense that would protect you from a Flash
Attack that would blind a normal for at least a couple of hundred years
(since his entire head vaporized).
So, what do I buy, Flash Defense 3,000,000? Seems rather expensive.
Filksinger
"Anybody not wearing sunblock 3,000,000 is going to have a very bad day!"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 18:31:49 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Anita Carstairs (was Stupid Precog Tricks)
From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
<snip>
>Err, this is what I'm saying! Except you seem to have understood the
>reverse. You take a 5 pt CSL, then to make it DCV only, you apply a
>Limitation, as per the HSR.
Uh, I don't own the HSR, so I don't know what it says exactly. I do have the
BBB, 1st printing, and it definitely says that a level of +1 DCV vs all
attacks is a 5 pt. Combat Level, period. You don't get a limitation.
Normally, a Combat Level only gives you DCV vs the type of combat to which
it applies, and never vs Ranged combat, unless it is an 8 pt. CL. When you
buy a +1 DCV vs all attacks for 5 pts., you give up the ability to add it to
your OCV in exchange for affecting all attacks including ranged, which
otherwise could not be affected for less than 8 pts.
>>Furthermore, a -1 1/2 or -2 Limitation is way overboard. "Only at night"
is
>>only -1/2. A +1 w/ HTH combat is 5 pts. If I used your limitation, I could
>>buy +1 HTH, DCV Only (-1 1/2) and +1 HTH, OCV Only (-1 1/2) (since OCV and
>>DCV are pretty much equal in value), and thus buy a +1 to my OCV and DCV
>>simultaneously for only 4 pts.
>
>Given the campaign setting, I adjudged that combat would be markedly
>less than normal, therefore CSLs are much less use, thus deserving a
>greater Limitation.
The greater limitation would still allow for buying both +1 OCV and +1 DCV
simultaneously for 4 pts. This is underpriced, so I still insist that your
Limitation, if appropriate, would still be excessive.
Filksinger
------------------------------
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