Digest Archives Vol 1 Issue 140
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 1999 12:47 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #140
champ-l-digest Saturday, January 16 1999 Volume 01 : Number 140
In this issue:
RE: Aragorn: Character
Re: Attn: Steve Long/Multiple Attacks in one Phase
Re: Attn: Steve Long/Multiple Attacks in one Phase
Re: Attn: Steve Long/Multiple Attacks in one Phase
Character: The Balrog (And you thought Aragorn was controversial!)
Re: Attn: Steve Long/Multiple Attacks in one Phase
An idea I was given about speed
Re: An idea I was given about speed
Re: Character: The Balrog (And you thought Aragorn was controversial!)
Re: Attn: Steve Long/Multiple Attacks in one Phase
Re: Character: The Balrog (And you thought Aragorn was controversial!)
Multiform questions
RE: Character: The Balrog (And you thought Aragorn was controversial!)
RE: Character: The Balrog (And you thought Aragorn was controversial!)
Bad Habits of Poor Gamers
Re: A seriously weird modification to Speed
Re: Multiform questions
Re: Bad Habits of Poor Gamers
Re: Bad Habits of Poor Gamers
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 00:29:37 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: RE: Aragorn: Character
At 11:13 PM 1/15/99 -0500, Scott Colcord wrote:
>Kudos to Scott for taking on this project...here's my
>$0.02 to throw into the pot...all suggestions are IMHO,
>YMMV, etc.
>
>> ARAGORN
>>
>> 18 STR 8
>> 14 DEX 12
>> 18 CON 16
>
>I'd raise the CON to 20; Aragorn's ability to keep going
>struck me as pushing the limit of what humans can do.
I think I have to agree with you there.
>> 16 BODY 12
>> 16 INT 6
>> 23 EGO 26 -> 32
>
>I'd probably stick with a 20 here; he had a strong will, as
>exhibited by his controlling the palantir, but I don't think
>it quite needs to be superhuman. Then again, I'm usually
>pretty stingy about fantasy characters going over the max.
>If you keep it, you'll have to pay the x2 for the NCM violation.
>Aragorn is still essentially (> 90%) human, and thus gets NCM
>automatically in a fantasy setting.
- -That- is definitely up to the GM, but I admit to having
forgotten it. Also, this calls into question the definition
of what NCM means. I -don't- interpret it as the boundary
of human-ness, just the point where you leave the first three
sigmas and enter the realm of the extremely rare.
>> 23 PRE 13 -> 16
>
>No problem with this value, but it also needs the x2 penalty.
>
>> 8 COM -1
>
>I probably wouldn't have bought this down; I think he was
>just slumming in Bree (Even a handsome man can look foul
>after spending a few months in the woods with little or no
>bathing).
Enough people have said this that I am forced to agree that
my interpretation is somewhat short of authoritative. :-)
>> 12 PD 8 -> 12
>> 10 ED 6 -> 8
>> 5 SPD 26 -> 36
>> 20 REC 24 -> 44
>> 60 END 12 -> 17
>> 75 STUN 41 -> 66
>
>Again, I think these stats are a bit on the high side.
>Aragorn is certainly a great fighter, but that should be
>mostly represented through skills. I would probably
>make them: PD 8, ED 7, SPD 4, REC 12, END 60, STUN 50
That's purely a call based on your campaign, I think. With the
exception of SPD, I think it's hard to relate these numbers to
any objective measure. I know they're high. He's Aragorn.
>I'd probably throw in 3-4 extra inches of running and
>a couple of swimming too.
Several people have pointed this out. I agree.
>> Characteristics Cost: 209 -> 284
>
>> 4 WF,Common Melee,Common Missile
>> 30 3 Levels,all skills (Figured in below)
>> 32 4 Levels,all combat
>
>I'd convert a couple of these combat levels to 3pt
>sword levels, since that's his primary weapon. I don't
>recall him demonstrating great proficiency with a
>such a large variety of weapons (Though 2 all-combat
>and 3 overall levels are nothing to sneeze at!). His
>max OCV becomes 10, 12 w/swords; adding in his sword's
>bonus should let him hit nearly anything with ease.
>
>> 3 Concealment 15-
>> 3 High Society 17-
>> 3 Mimicry 14-
>> 9 Navigation 17-
>> 3 Oratory 17-
>> 3 Riding 15-
>> 5 Shadowing 15-
>> 5 Stealth 16-
>> 7 Survival 16-
>> 9 Tactics 18-
>> 7 Tracking 17-
>> 1 TF,Ships
>>
>> 3 Linguist
>> 1 Lang: Westron,native,literacy
>> 3 Lang: Numenorean,fluent w/accent,literacy
>> 3 Lang: Sindarin,fluent w/accent,literacy
>> 3 Lang: Quenya,fluent w/accent,literacy
>> 2 Lang: Harad,fluent conversation,literacy
>>
>> 3 AK: Eriador 15-
>> 3 AK: Gondor 15-
>
>I'd definately give him a *bunch* more AKs...
>probably 15-20 CP worth, and the Traveller
>enhancer.
The reason I didn't do that is that he spent most of his
time in these two places. Not having the AK doesn't mean
he doesn't know where the Sea of Rhun is, just that he isn't
extremely conversant with the territory. Still, you wouldn't
be wrong.
>> 3 KS: Dunadan History 15-
>> 3 KS: Elven History 15-
>> 3 KS: Hidden Councils of the Wise 15-
>> 5 KS: Herb Lore 17-
>
>I could see him having Scholar...he was quite learned.
I considered this. I felt that it didn't fit the image. Close call.
>> 20 6D6 Healing,"Healing Hands", Gradual
>
>I think the 'Hands of a Healer' reference was mostly
>about his herb lore. His own touch seemed to be more
>specifially aimed at the 'Black Breath'. Perhaps a
>Dispel vs. that illness would be more appropriate?
Could be. This power is based more on the ICE write-up
than on the novel. I agree that it seemed less miraculuous
than as I've written it.
>> 3 Bump Of Direction
>> 7 14- Combat Sense
>> 5 Defense Maneuver
>>
>> 10 Head of State
>
>He should probably also have Gandalf, Elrond,
>and Thranduil as contacts, and have 30-60 Dunadain
>as followers (100-150 CP each). A number of lesser
>contacts are probably likely, along with the
>well-connected enhancer.
Yeah, although I'm not so sure about Thranduil.
I went for the 'leaner' look. Sorta like, you can do Batman
on 300 points or on 1000, depending on what you choose to list.
>> 24 Package,"Anduril",OAF,unbreakable,extremely hard 4
>> (15) 3D6 Killing Attack HTH,STR Min 13 4
>> (4) 5 Levels
>
>As someone else stated, these need to be 5pt levels. I like
>the idea of giving it Affects Desolid, as it makes sense that
>a sword of this power would be able to affect noncorporeal
>creatures. Five levels also seems a bit excessive...three
>levels would probably be plenty.
After last night's discussion, I thought long and hard about this
and something occurred to me. Narsil (Anuril before it was
broken) destroyed Sauron's material form, but not his spirit form.
I don't think "affects desolid" is warranted.
>> (5) +2 Detect,"Orcs and other Dark Creatures",make into sense,
>> Desc: Glowing Blade, Ranged
>
>I'd also put in the green stone that Arwen gave him. It seemed
>to at times make him more noble, and give him the strength to
>persevere through dark times. Perhaps a self-only aid to PRE,
>EGO, and END?
The Elessar. Could be. Could also be that what made him
persevere was the reminder of Arwen. True love and all that. Who
knows?
>He also needs to buy partial immunity to aging.
I totally disagree with this. A lifespan longer than human is
not immortality. He wasn't even among the longer-lived
of the Dunadan.
>> Powers Cost: 228
>> Total Cost: 437
>>
>> Base Points: 75
>> 10 Distinctive Features,"Dunadan",concealable,minor
>> 10 Hunted,"Sauron's Minions",as powerful,harsh,appear 8
>> 5 Watched,"The Wise",as powerful,harsh,appear 8
>> 10 Psychological Limitation,"Driven to Reunite Kingdom",
>> uncommon,strong
>> 15 Psychological Limitation,"Love for Arwen",uncommon,total
>> 20 Psychological Limitation,"Must Protect The Weak",common,
>> total
>
>I'd make this Strong, rather than Total; he understands the
>big picture well enough that he could make sacrifices if he
>had to.
>
>> 5 Reputation,"Drifter",occur 8
>> 15 Secret ID,"Isildur's Heir"
>> 272 Feel Foul, Seem Fair Bonus
>
>Umm....isn't that the other way around? :-)
Ya got me there...
>> Disadvantages Total: 362
>> Experience Spent: 0
>> Total Points: 437
>>
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I distrust all systematizers, and avoid them. The will to
a system shows a lack of honesty."
Nietzsche, Twilight of the Idols
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scott C. Nolan
nolan@erols.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 00:57:32 -0600
From: Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org>
Subject: Re: Attn: Steve Long/Multiple Attacks in one Phase
>DT> Like the Elemental Control requirement that "powers in different slots
>DT> cannot be linked to go off together"? It's not clear whether they
>DT> mean Linked (-1/2) or linked (setting two attack powers off together).
>
>Since the only context for "linked" or "Linked" ever used in the BBB is in
>the context of the Limitation, I interpret it to be the same as with
>Multipower: you cannot link a power in one framework slot to another power
>in a different slot. That is all it means, no more, no less.
Says you. I think it's fairly clear in the other direction: "for a point
savings of up to half of each power's cost, you cannot have them go
off together".
Of course, take this in the context of "under Hero 5, a straight DC cap
for combined attacks is dumb."
Here's a proposed system for counting "equivalent DC":
1. Start with your largest-DC attack. if there are several, choose one.
This is your primary attack. Your combined attack starts at that value.
2. For each additional attack,
a. attacks that work vs limited defenses, or that are basically NND,
add their full DC to the effective value
b. attacks that aren't AVLD/NND, and are at least half the DC of the
primary attack, add half their DC (round to nearest half)
c. small, normalish attacks add one +1 DC.
Here's the important part:
THESE RESTRICTIONS ARE FOR BUILDING CHARACTERS, NOT FOR USE IN COMBAT.
- -----
Under Rat's thinking you should be able to, in a 12 DC campaign, take
60 12d6 EB
60 6d6 Flash
but only be able to use 12 DC's worth total, between both attacks.
I say that's poppycock. If you paid the points, you should be able
to fire them both, at full power. That's where the Elemental Control
becomes limiting (and thus worth the 50% point savings): you can't
make attack powers go off together. Like over-half-reserve ultra slots
in Multipowers.
The GM should look at characters to see what they can potentially
throw, and disallow any that are too powerful by the "equivalent DC"
system above.
Donald
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:00:47 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Attn: Steve Long/Multiple Attacks in one Phase
>
>> While I don't disagree with the principal, I don't really think two powers
>> should be equal to the sum of their DCs for this purpose. With the
>> exception of NNDs, they rather rarely are, for the reason you state next,
>> among others.
>
> Sheesh. This was always a given for the "yes you can" camp--AP or
>DC limits were still strictly enforced.
>
> Now that they've been granted "book" status, they want more.
>Give 'em an inch. Don't you wish you'd been wrong now, Rat?
>
> Anyway, it's a balance issue. No, the two combined powers will
>not be as powerful as one by itself. However, they could end up being
>more useful. Breadth vs Depth.
Not a good enough answer for me. It's far too likely for two powers bought
seperately being forced to operate at the total DC limit being not only less
useful, but downright useless. If they're Normal or Killing attacks, it's
almost a certainty. Heck, they give even Reduced Penetration a limit, and
it's no where as limiting as this. I don't personally believe they'll end
up being close to useful enough to justify the loss of power involved.
And for what it's worth, I've never played that you could do this
freely...but if you were to do so, I'd argue strenuously that that the DC
should be assessed as the larger DC plus half the lower.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:06:20 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Attn: Steve Long/Multiple Attacks in one Phase
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>"WS" == Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com> writes:
>
>WS> While I don't disagree with the principal, I don't really think two
>WS> powers should be equal to the sum of their DCs for this purpose. With
>WS> the exception of NNDs, they rather rarely are, for the reason you state
>WS> next, among others.
>
>Why not? A 1D6 Flash linked to a 10D6 EB is a 12DC attack (the blinding
>light-based attack from the rulebook); a 6D6 EB and a 3D6 Entangle are
Because it's less likely to do any effect than the standalone EB, and quite
likely to do no Flash effect at all if there's any Flash defense present at all?
>likewise a 12DC attack (hitting someone with a blast of ice the freezes
>into a shell around the victim). Sure, the EBs are not as directly
>effective as a 12D6 EB. You are exchanging depth for breadth.
And all too likely, especially in evenly balanced cases, to do nothing at
all. You don't balance the total defenses, after all, do you? If not, why
do it on offenses?
>
>[...]
>
>WS> This ought to be doable just with some sort of skill roll, given the
>WS> Coordinating Attacks rule.
>
>That opens up the way for a pile of abuse with Autofire attacks. At least
>with an Advantage you are paying a cost proportionate to the power for the
>ability rather than a flat 3 points.
I don't think you can have it both ways; if Coordinating allows you to do it
without even a special skill when multiple people are involved, then I don't
buy it being harder for an individual to do with their own attacks.
Frankly, given how rarely I've seen appreciable damage get through from any
Autofire attack other than NNDs, I'm not excessively worried about someone
buying a skill to add up that total for stunning purposes. I'm not sure
I've ever seen anyone actually do enough stun to do that to a serious
oppoenent even with NND autofires except in games that had no control over CV.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 02:54:37 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: Character: The Balrog (And you thought Aragorn was controversial!)
THE BALROG
55 STR 0* *=Growth Figured In
20 DEX 30
25 CON 30
30 BODY 22*
18 INT 8
25 EGO 30
60 PRE 50
4 COM 3
18 PD 16
14 ED 9
4 SPD 10
20 REC 26
50 END 0
100 STUN 52*
Characteristics Cost: 280
13 2" Change Environment,"Fire Aura",No Range,0 END Persistent
25 2" Darkness,Sight Group,No Range,Personal Immunity 4
15 25% Damage Reduction (PD),resistant
15 25% Damage Reduction (ED),resistant
36 Desolidification,Only to Fire, 0 END Persistent,Always On
8 8/8 Damage Resistance
30 3 BODY Regeneration
10 10 Power Defense
10 10 Flash Defense
5 10 Mental Defense
5 5 Lack Of Weakness
30 Life Support,doesn't breathe,doesn't eat/sleep/excrete,safe
in vacuum/pressure,safe in radiation,safe in heat/cold,
immune to disease,immune to aging
60 9 LVLS Growth,Always On,0 END Persistent
5 Infrared Vision
13 +2 Detect,"Life",make into sense,Ranged
48 4D6 Killing Attack HTH,"Claws",vs physical defense,Reduced
Penetration
10 2 Levels,Melee Combat
24 12" Flight
80 8D6 Energy Blast,Damage Shield,0 END
3 Ambidexterity
3 Bump Of Direction
7 15- Combat Sense
5 Defense Maneuver
28 15- Universal Translator
6 AK: Moria 16-
80 4,000 100 pt. Followers (Orcs)
40 Package,"Whip",OAF,personal focus
(25) 5D6 Entangle
(15) 8D6 Energy Blast,beam attack,Linked,"Entangle"
50 Package,"Sword",OAF,unbreakable,personal focus
(5) 2 Levels,related group
(30) 4D6 Killing Attack HTH,vs physical defense
(15) 8D6 Energy Blast,beam attack,Linked,"Killing Attack"
Powers Cost: 664
Total Cost: 944
Base Points: 100
15 Berserk,"When thwarted",uncommon,occur 11-,recover 11-
25 Distinctive Features,"Balrog",not concealable,extreme
10 Watched,"By Sauron",more powerful,noncombat influence,
harsh,appear 8-
15 Physical Limitation,"Cannot Leave Moria",infrequently,fully
15 Psychological Limitation,"Hatred of Life",common,strong
15 Psychological Limitation,"Supremely Confident",common,strong
20 Reputation,"Fire Demon",occur 14-,extreme reputation
729 Durin's Bane Bonus
Disadvantages Total: 844
Experience Spent: 0
Total Points: 944
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Melkor built his strength, and slept not, but watched and laboured;
and the evil things he had perverted walked abroad, and the dark
and slumbering woods were haunted by monsters and shapes of
dread. And in Utumno he gathered his demons about him, those
spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendor, and
became most like him in his corruption: their hearts were of fire,
but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them;
they had whips of flame. Balrogs the were named in Middle-Earth
in later days."
The Silmarillion, p. 47.
The Balrog has many names. Demon of Might, Spirit of Fire, Durin's
Bane, Valaraukar, the Terror. It is all of these and more. It is the last
of the great fire demons that once served Melkor alongside Sauron,
and rivals the Lord of the Rings in evil and power, if not in guile and
wit. It is an enormous fire demon, wreathed in terror, fire and darkness,
and bears a whip and sword, both surrounded in flame.
The Balrog is a maia, like Gandalf or Sauron, but like Sauron, it has
been seduced by the dark power of Melkor, and is now forever tied
to its body of flame. It is ages older than the oldest elf, and more
powerful than the greatest dragon, a relic of days when the Valar
walked upon Arda.
The Balrog fled from the fall of Thandorodrim and the downfall of Melkor
at the end of the first age, and hid itself beneath the earth, where it slept
for more than 5,400 years until the year Third Age 1931, when dwarves
of Khazad-dum tunneled into its chamber and awakened it. It slew them
all, including King Durin VI, and drove their remnants out. The dwarven
kingdom has since become The Dark Realm, Moria, and infested with
orcs.
The Balrog ruled this kingdom for more than one thousand years until
the coming of the Fellowship of the Ring in 3019. The Balrog confronted
the Fellowship on the great Durin's Bridge. Gandalf struggled with the
Balrog while the Fellowship escaped through the Eastern Gates. The
struggle of the two maiar broke the bridge, and they tumbled down
the great chasm into the bowels of Arda, where they fought throughout
Moria, from the uttermost root of stone, up the Endless Stair to Durin's
Tower on the highest peak of Mount Celebdil, and there they slew each
other. The Balrog's body broke the mountainside when it landed.
NOTES:
The Balrog is unbelievably powerful, something not to be fought by mortal
man. Gandalf is by his own admission the most dangerous thing in Middle
Earth, other than Sauron. And the Balrog killed him. Luckily, death isn't
a permanent state for a maia, at least not one on good terms with the Valar.
In The Silmarillion, one elf-lord manages to take on a balrog, but he was one
of the oldest and toughest beings in existence. And he died doing it.
There was a lot I agonized over putting in (Knowledge skills - sure he's
got 'em, but you, my friend, are never going to see him -use- them. He
really isn't big on the idea of guests.)
The Berserk disadvantage is not based on anything in the novels, just
on my impression that a demon of fire and might would tend to be testy
at being thwarted for the first time in 6,000 years.
The Watched disadvantage is also a guess, but can you really imagine
that Sauron is -not- going to watch the one creature that could successfully
give him a run for his money in the Dark Lord of Middle-Earth business?
The Physical Limitation is a lie. The Balrog -can- leave Moria, but he
never, ever does.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I distrust all systematizers, and avoid them. The will to
a system shows a lack of honesty."
Nietzsche, Twilight of the Idols
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scott C. Nolan
nolan@erols.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 02:26:31 -0600 (Central Standard Time)
From: Tim Gilberg <gilberg@ou.edu>
Subject: Re: Attn: Steve Long/Multiple Attacks in one Phase
> Under Rat's thinking you should be able to, in a 12 DC campaign, take
>
> 60 12d6 EB
> 60 6d6 Flash
>
> but only be able to use 12 DC's worth total, between both attacks.
>
> I say that's poppycock. If you paid the points, you should be able
> to fire them both, at full power. That's where the Elemental Control
> becomes limiting (and thus worth the 50% point savings): you can't
> make attack powers go off together. Like over-half-reserve ultra slots
> in Multipowers.
Yes, yes, I see it now. Why have any sort of campaign guidelines
or limits? Who needs restrictions on AP or DC? If someone pays the
points for the power, they get to use it. It couldn't be simpler, could
it?
Sheesh.
-Tim Gilberg
-"English Majors of the World! Untie!"
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 02:04:15 -0800
From: Max Callahan <mcallahan@home.com>
Subject: An idea I was given about speed
So I was explaining my problems with speed to one of my friends (think
about how that sounds for a moment), and he gave me the answer.
Each player gets a bag, into the bag go 12 equaly sized chits numbered 1
thru 12, each segment each player pulls a chit out of the bag, if the
number on the chit is one of their action phases then they get to act that
segment.
Thus a character gets to act exatly their Speed in actions per turn, so one
one gets cheated for phases (and no one gets bonus phases) and while the
segments any given character act on are randon there is a predective
element (if it's seg 8 and that speed 3 character has only gotten of 1
action then it's a good bet he'll go real soon , and on the other hand if
it's seg 5 and the speed 3 character has allready gone twice then it's
prety safe to try hawmakering him.
Of course, on the down side keeping track of 10 to 15 gangmembers under
this system would be a pain in the ass (which punks bag was this).
So what do y'all think of this one.
Max "I have a problem with speed" Callahan
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 18:49:09 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: An idea I was given about speed
>So I was explaining my problems with speed to one of my friends (think
>about how that sounds for a moment), and he gave me the answer.
>Each player gets a bag, into the bag go 12 equaly sized chits numbered 1
>thru 12, each segment each player pulls a chit out of the bag, if the
>number on the chit is one of their action phases then they get to act that
>segment.
>Thus a character gets to act exatly their Speed in actions per turn, so one
>one gets cheated for phases (and no one gets bonus phases) and while the
>segments any given character act on are randon there is a predective
>element (if it's seg 8 and that speed 3 character has only gotten of 1
>action then it's a good bet he'll go real soon , and on the other hand if
>it's seg 5 and the speed 3 character has allready gone twice then it's
>prety safe to try hawmakering him.
>Of course, on the down side keeping track of 10 to 15 gangmembers under
>this system would be a pain in the ass (which punks bag was this).
Well, a couple things: don't bother to keep track of it seperately for the
punks; treat them as one entity for sequence. I've never found it worthwile
differentiating initiative on thugs.
A similar result can be generated just by rolling a bunch of random phase
distributions for the common speeds in advance, and not telling people about
them. Of course _you'll_ know.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 06:47:50 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Character: The Balrog (And you thought Aragorn was controversial!)
At 02:54 AM 1/16/1999 -0500, Scott Nolan wrote:
>THE BALROG
>The Physical Limitation is a lie. The Balrog -can- leave Moria, but he
>never, ever does.
Then it's a Psych Lim, at the Total level.
Damon
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 06:53:22 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Attn: Steve Long/Multiple Attacks in one Phase
At 02:26 AM 1/16/1999 -0600, Tim Gilberg wrote:
>
>> I say that's poppycock. If you paid the points, you should be able
>> to fire them both, at full power.
>
> Yes, yes, I see it now. Why have any sort of campaign guidelines
>or limits? Who needs restrictions on AP or DC? If someone pays the
>points for the power, they get to use it. It couldn't be simpler, could
>it?
Absolutely. If you paid the points and the GM *approved the character* you
should certainly get to use what you paid for.
Campaign guidelines and limits are a good thing; AP and DC restrictions are
a good way to structure some of those limits. But they *don't* suddenly
come into play in the middle of a game. They need to be enforced when the
character is built. A GM who allowed me to spend extra points for
something he would not subsequently allow me to *use* would seriously tick
me off.
Damon
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 07:28:49 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Character: The Balrog (And you thought Aragorn was controversial!)
At 02:54 AM 1/16/1999 -0500, Scott Nolan wrote:
>The Balrog is unbelievably powerful, something not to be fought by mortal
>man. Gandalf is by his own admission the most dangerous thing in Middle
>Earth, other than Sauron. And the Balrog killed him. Luckily, death isn't
>a permanent state for a maia, at least not one on good terms with the Valar.
What's the reference for Gandalf's "admission" here? He was delayed
getting to Frodo's party and tells Frodo he was a prisoner of the Giant
Treebeard for "many weary days". In response to Frodo's surprise that
Galdalf could be made a captive, Gandalf replies:
"There are many powers greater than mine, for good and evil, in the world."
This seems in conflict with the characterization of Gandalf as the
second-most powerful entity in Middle-Earth.
Damon
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 08:58:26 EST
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Subject: Multiform questions
I don't usually run characters with Multiform, but for a character I'm
working on it looks like an option (and much cleaner than buying powers
and half her stats OIHID).
1) The way I'm reading the description, while the different forms of a
character with Multiform can have different personalities, they all have
the same memories -- i.e. when Santiago Villagatos joined the Champions,
Jaguar knew about it. How would people handle a character who's forms
didn't have full access to those joint memories? A physical (or psych)
lim on the form that doesn't have full access, or a limitation on the
Multiform?
(What I'm going for here is a heroic twist on "Dr. Jekell and Mr. Hyde".
The normal ID has full awareness of what the hero ID is up to, but the
hero ID is foggy on what skills and abilities the normal ID possesses.)
(This of course assumes the GM will allow this twist :) . )
2) "The new form should be built with the same guidelines as the base
character. For example, if the base character starts with 100 points and
a maximum of 150 points of Disadvantages, the new form would start with
these same guidelines." What if the new form (in this case, the normal
ID) really _shouldn't_ be built on that many points? Do you just ignore
some of the base points?
Leah
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:38:35 -0500
From: "Scott A. Colcord" <sacolcor@ic.net>
Subject: RE: Character: The Balrog (And you thought Aragorn was controversial!)
>> The Balrog is unbelievably powerful, something not to be
>> fought by mortal man. Gandalf is by his own admission the
>> most dangerous thing in Middle Earth, other than Sauron.
>> And the Balrog killed him. Luckily, death isn't a permanent
>> state for a maia, at least not one on good terms with the Valar.
>
> What's the reference for Gandalf's "admission" here? He was
> delayed getting to Frodo's party and tells Frodo he was a prisoner
> of the Giant Treebeard for "many weary days". In response to
> Frodo's surprise that Galdalf could be made a captive, Gandalf
> replies:
>
> "There are many powers greater than mine, for good and evil,
> in the world."
>
> This seems in conflict with the characterization of Gandalf as the
> second-most powerful entity in Middle-Earth.
Umm, it might be time to dust off those books and give them another
read. The quote from Gandalf was from "The Two Towers", chapter 5,
speaking to Gimli:
"Dangerous!", cried Gandalf. "And so am I, very dangerous: more
dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought
alive before the seat of the Dark Lord."
Gandalf's imprisonment was at the hands of Saruman, not Treebeard.
(Treebeard was one of the good guys!). At the time Gandalf said
that "There are many powers greater than mine, for good and evil,
in the world.", Saruman was still more powerful than he. That
changed after Gandalf died and was resurrected. Note also that
the quote states that he's the most dangerous thing they'll ever
meet...there are other powers in the world (the Valar), that are
far more powerful.
----Scott
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:22:13 -0500
From: "Scott A. Colcord" <sacolcor@ic.net>
Subject: RE: Character: The Balrog (And you thought Aragorn was controversial!)
> THE BALROG
<snip>
> 36 Desolidification,Only to Fire, 0 END Persistent,Always On
I probably wouldn't allow taking both 'Only to Fire' and
'Always On' for points; how does 'Always On' provide any
additional limitation?
> 80 4,000 100 pt. Followers (Orcs)
These are pretty beefy orcs; even the "Greater Orc" from
FH was only base 50 pts. Of course, it's got some ~150 point
trolls too, so perhaps it averages out.
> 15 Physical Limitation,"Cannot Leave Moria",infrequently,fully
As Damon noted, this should probably be a Psych Lim.
----Scott
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:06:14 -0500
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Bad Habits of Poor Gamers
BAD HABITS OF POOR GAMERS or LIMITATIONS OF CHAMPIONS MECHANICS
This is partly ranting, and partly looking for solutions.
I've started a list of some of the things that really annoy me about
Champions -- or rather I should say, really annoy me about Champions
players. Some of these things can be addressed through optional
rules mentioned in the BBB, but I'm more interested in whether others
have seen the same things, and how you handle it. (Feel free to add
to the list.)
* Firing near an innocent bystander because Champions mechanics say
that you'll never hit him.
OK ... you could use the rule that a missed shot goes somewhere
nearby, and roll a die to see where it went. But most players
will play the odds -- especially with a high OCV -- that the
bystander will not get hit. Face it ... Would Detective Riggs
fire on the bad guy if he was holding Murdoch's daughter hostage?
All right. Maybe that was a bad example.
* Hitting an opponent with killing level damage because chances are
the dice will come up in your favor.
This especially applies to players who take the Code Against
Killing disad (apparently just for the points), but still have no
problems using the big guns. "It's almost impossible to actually
kill someone in Champions, and besides, I'd have to roll all 5s
and 6s."
* Ignoring a down team member because you know that he's only at -10
and will be up again after post-segment-12.
In the movies, when your partner gets hit, you rush to help him
out. At least until he protests weakly, "I'm ok. Go get the
mad scientist!" I suppose one way of handling it is never to
tell anyone your Stun level.
* Exposing an innocent with an Ego or Stun Only blast because it
doesn't really do any damage.
Let's say you've got an area effect stun grenade. The bad guys
have been considerate enough to group themselves together, but
darn it if there isn't a pregnant mother walking into your target
radius. "Oh well ... She'll be fine after she recovers her stun."
* Shrugging off damage to the tune of 8 BODY because you still have
2 BODY left and that's enough to keep the battle going.
Sure, it's one thing to heroically claim "I'm hurt bad ... but
I still have to save the world!" It's another to have your
enemy take you down to 2 Body, and still perform your acrobatic
maneuvers like an expert. Minuses on all your skill rolls?
******************************************************
Live fast! Love hard! And Die with your mask on!
******************************************************
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 07:57:14 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: A seriously weird modification to Speed
At 04:20 PM 1/15/99 -0800, Christopher Taylor wrote:
>The only wierd modification I have started to use for Speed isnt much of
>one at all. I have a nice collection of precious gem dice and polyhedrals
>from the good ol days of the late 1970s and early 80s that sits unused in
>my dice box. So I pulled out a lonely D12 and started using it as a
>randomizer for what phase combat starts in. Instead of starting on phase 1
>(or phase '0' that the rules call for)... You get a random phase to begin
>with, who knows what. This seems to work well for mixing things up and
>sometimes hey! that Brick gets to move right away! :)
>
>An alternate of this would be to start on the first phase that the
>character with the highest DEX acts on, to represent their swift reaction
>to hostilities. Never done this though, actually I just thought of it as I
>was typing.
On that latter basis, I've always started on Phase 0, with no Post-12
after it, allowing only those who are not "surprised" to act. (If it's an
ambush, for instance, only the ambushers get this Phase 0, while the
ambushees have to wait for their normal Phases.) I've found this works
both logically and smoothly.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 07:51:33 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Multiform questions
At 08:58 AM 1/16/99 EST, Leah L Watts wrote:
>I don't usually run characters with Multiform, but for a character I'm
>working on it looks like an option (and much cleaner than buying powers
>and half her stats OIHID).
>
>1) The way I'm reading the description, while the different forms of a
>character with Multiform can have different personalities, they all have
>the same memories -- i.e. when Santiago Villagatos joined the Champions,
>Jaguar knew about it. How would people handle a character who's forms
>didn't have full access to those joint memories? A physical (or psych)
>lim on the form that doesn't have full access, or a limitation on the
>Multiform?
>
>(What I'm going for here is a heroic twist on "Dr. Jekell and Mr. Hyde".
>The normal ID has full awareness of what the hero ID is up to, but the
>hero ID is foggy on what skills and abilities the normal ID possesses.)
>(This of course assumes the GM will allow this twist :) . )
I'd call this a Physical Limitation (Frequent, Greatly Limiting). It's
not Totally Limiting IMO because you only say that the Hero ID is "foggy"
regarding the normal ID.
>2) "The new form should be built with the same guidelines as the base
>character. For example, if the base character starts with 100 points and
>a maximum of 150 points of Disadvantages, the new form would start with
>these same guidelines." What if the new form (in this case, the normal
>ID) really _shouldn't_ be built on that many points? Do you just ignore
>some of the base points?
I'd count those guidelines as being the maximum. If the new form is a
Talented Normal with 50 base points and 50 points in Disdvantages, then it
should only cost 20 points, not the full 50 for a 250-point form. (As per
the Captain Zoology examples.)
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 12:16:33 -0500
From: "B.C. Holmes" <bcholmes@interlog.com>
Subject: Re: Bad Habits of Poor Gamers
Mike Christodoulou wrote:
>
> * Hitting an opponent with killing level damage because chances are
> the dice will come up in your favor.
>
> This especially applies to players who take the Code Against
> Killing disad (apparently just for the points), but still have no
> problems using the big guns. "It's almost impossible to actually
> kill someone in Champions, and besides, I'd have to roll all 5s
> and 6s."
In a V&V campaign, I once set up (or, rather, the mad scientist set up)
a situation where one of the bad guys had almost nothing in the way of
defenses or Hit Points and Power (comparable to BODY and END) -- the
process that the mad scientist used to give the baddie super powers
weakened his body. I did this because two team members, who almost
always had the first move, and who each had disintigration rays, would
coordinate their first attacks on the same villain (good strategy, but
sucky ethics). They had so many modifiers to hit and to damage, that
their first shots generally caused significant damage to the bad guys.
And that one time, the bad guy was vapourized. With TV crews nearby,
and the whole thing caught on a nearby security camera. Got the heroes
in a lot of trouble. (At the hearing, the bad guy's younger sister
screamed at them: "He was a good kid who fell in with the wrong crowd!
He was *trying* to straighten up his life, and you killed him!")
They did actually learn from that lesson.
BCing you
- ----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+--
B.C. Holmes http://www.interlog.com/~bcholmes/
"Now I'm where I want to be and who I want to be and doing what they
always said I wouldn't, yet I feel I haven't won at all."
- _Chess_
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 12:04:40 -0500
From: "Ronald A. Miller" <rabmiller@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Bad Habits of Poor Gamers
Well, Mike it looks like you'd be happier if you kept the players more in
the dark on what the outcome of each roll is. If you do this, they can't
possibly know just what score will hit the opponent and which will "go wide"
and threaten Grandma Hostage... You can also predetermine in your mind just
how 'reckless' a reckless attack would be and assign penalties/bonuses for
the chance of hitting nearby targets other than the one intended. Sounds
complicated, but it can be done on the fly. Put those "heroes" in their
place!
The bookkeeping as far as BOD, STN and END could also be handled by you so
that each player doesn't know just how badly they're hurt. I've had to do
this and it works well. More mature role-players will even welcome this
level of secrecy, but it can lend to a more 'diceless' form of play.
I'm still new to this list, but I can't believe how munchkiny some of you
guys are in terms of combat. Two attacks per phase? PLEASE! But I
digress.
My two cents,
Miller
- -----Original Message-----
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
To: Champions Discussion List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 11:53 AM
Subject: Bad Habits of Poor Gamers
>BAD HABITS OF POOR GAMERS or LIMITATIONS OF CHAMPIONS MECHANICS
>
>This is partly ranting, and partly looking for solutions.
>
>I've started a list of some of the things that really annoy me about
>Champions -- or rather I should say, really annoy me about Champions
>players. Some of these things can be addressed through optional
>rules mentioned in the BBB, but I'm more interested in whether others
>have seen the same things, and how you handle it. (Feel free to add
>to the list.)
>
>* Firing near an innocent bystander because Champions mechanics say
> that you'll never hit him.
>
> OK ... you could use the rule that a missed shot goes somewhere
> nearby, and roll a die to see where it went. But most players
> will play the odds -- especially with a high OCV -- that the
> bystander will not get hit. Face it ... Would Detective Riggs
> fire on the bad guy if he was holding Murdoch's daughter hostage?
> All right. Maybe that was a bad example.
>
>* Hitting an opponent with killing level damage because chances are
> the dice will come up in your favor.
>
> This especially applies to players who take the Code Against
> Killing disad (apparently just for the points), but still have no
> problems using the big guns. "It's almost impossible to actually
> kill someone in Champions, and besides, I'd have to roll all 5s
> and 6s."
>
>* Ignoring a down team member because you know that he's only at -10
> and will be up again after post-segment-12.
>
> In the movies, when your partner gets hit, you rush to help him
> out. At least until he protests weakly, "I'm ok. Go get the
> mad scientist!" I suppose one way of handling it is never to
> tell anyone your Stun level.
>
>* Exposing an innocent with an Ego or Stun Only blast because it
> doesn't really do any damage.
>
> Let's say you've got an area effect stun grenade. The bad guys
> have been considerate enough to group themselves together, but
> darn it if there isn't a pregnant mother walking into your target
> radius. "Oh well ... She'll be fine after she recovers her stun."
>
>* Shrugging off damage to the tune of 8 BODY because you still have
> 2 BODY left and that's enough to keep the battle going.
>
> Sure, it's one thing to heroically claim "I'm hurt bad ... but
> I still have to save the world!" It's another to have your
> enemy take you down to 2 Body, and still perform your acrobatic
> maneuvers like an expert. Minuses on all your skill rolls?
>
>
>
>
>
> ******************************************************
> Live fast! Love hard! And Die with your mask on!
> ******************************************************
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #140
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Date: Monday, May 24, 1999 03:11 PM