Digest Archives Vol 1 Issue 143
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Sunday, January 17, 1999 8:51 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #143
champ-l-digest Sunday, January 17 1999 Volume 01 : Number 143
In this issue:
Re: Bad Habits of Poor Gamers
Re: Nazgul Invulnerabilty
Re: Bad Habits of Poor Gamers
Re: Bad Habits of Poor Gamers
Re: Nazgul Invulnerabilty
Re: Bad Habits of Poor Gamers
Re: Batman's CAK (was Bad Habits of Poor Gamers)
Re: Bad Habits of Poor Gamers
Re: Bad Habits of Poor Gamers
Re: Batman's CAK (and long DC continuity rant)
Trigger Question
RE: Nazgul Invulnerability (was Re: Aragorn)
Re: Bad Habits of Poor Gamers
Re: Trigger Question
Re: Bad Habits of Poor Gamers
Re: Bad Habits of Poor Gamers
Aarrrgh!
Re: Bad Habits of Poor Gamers
Re: Batman's CAK (was Bad Habits of Poor Gamers)
Re: Batman's CAK (and long DC continuity rant)
Re: Tolkien Characters
Re: Attn: Steve Long/Multiple Attacks in one Phase
Re: A seriously weird modification to speed
Killing Codes (was Bad Habits of Poor Gamers)
Re: Batman's CAK (was Bad Habits of Poor Gamers)
Re: Batman's CAK (was Bad Habits of Poor Gamers)
Re: Attn: Steve Long/Multiple Attacks in one Phase
/home/ratinox/whatthe...
Re: Attn: Steve Long/Multiple Attacks in one Phase
Re: Tolkien Characters
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 08:37:03 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Bad Habits of Poor Gamers
At 02:44 AM 1/17/1999 -0500, geoff heald wrote:
>Related: in the premere of Batman Beyond (The 30 minute bit that ran on
>Kids WB Saturday morning), did Bruce give up being Batman because his pains
>had caused him to almost fail, or because in his desperation, he had
>grabbed an fired a gun?
He *didn't* fire the gun, but I think it was the fact that he'd grabbed it
and aimed it at another human being, *prepared* to fire it, that really
scared him. Batman has always driven himself beyond sensible physical
limits, so I don't think the heart condition alone would have stopped him.
He could simply have looked into drug therapy (who knows what medical
science will have come up with 40+ years from now?), heart transplant or
pacemaker, none of which would have required Batman's retirement (leave of
absence, yes, but not retirement). But picking up the gun ended his
effectiveness as Batman. He had to retire *before* he crossed the line by
pulling the trigger.
Damon
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:19:30 EST
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Subject: Re: Nazgul Invulnerabilty
>I think it's clear that Merry -and- Eowyn killed him. Her sword flew
apart
>when she stabbed him.
>
>And I agree with the interpretation that the nazgul was -fated- to be
killed
>in that manner, not that he was immune to other forms of destruction.
Possibly a Vulnerability? 2x BODY and STUN vs any attack made by a woman
or nonhuman? I'd put this at 20 points, since I get the impression that
women in the Third Age normally don't fight, and there aren't that many
nonhumans willing to go toe to toe with a nazgul.
Leah
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:19:30 EST
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Subject: Re: Bad Habits of Poor Gamers
>>This one is iffy, but if Our Hero is up against a brick-type villain, a
>>robot, or vehicle, I don't see where he's violated his CVK.
>
>Though not specifically detailed in my original message, I'm not
>talking about going up against a brick. Obviously, 12 dice against
>Tank Guy cannot be considered a killing attack. But what if he
>throws 12 dice against a martial artist, figuring that, on the
>average, he'll only get about 40-some points of stun and MAYBE 12
>body, most of which will PROBABLY get absorbed by the guy's (activation
>roll) armor. The possibility exists that this roll could severely
>cripple the opponent.
I'm confused -- are we talking about killing attacks or about
high-powered attacks? Twelve dice of KA is going to do a whole lot more
than 12 BODY unless someone loaded the dice.
Leah
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 06:53:25 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Bad Habits of Poor Gamers
At 09:23 PM 1/16/99 -0500, geoff heald wrote:
>At 02:25 PM 1/16/99 -0800, you wrote:
>>I can see characters with a code vs. killing possessing a killing attack
>>(examples, Superman, and his heat vision; Batman and his sharp edged
>>batarangs).
>>
>IMO, Batman doesn't have code against killing, just against guns.
In the few Batman comics I've read over the past few years, the only
time the topic's come up, he's adamantly refused to kill. (I think this
was in some part of the Contagion epic.) Has he intentionally killed
someone at any time since the Zero Hour reboot, or at least since the
Crisis on Infinite Earths?
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 01:57:58 +1000
From: "Lockie" <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: Nazgul Invulnerabilty
the word 'hinder' was mentioned. . could a mortal man even block this guy's
way?
Sounds like desolid, vunerable to non-male humans (a rarity on those
battlefields?)
- -----Original Message-----
From: Leah L Watts <llwatts@juno.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Monday, January 18, 1999 1:51 AM
Subject: Re: Nazgul Invulnerabilty
>>I think it's clear that Merry -and- Eowyn killed him. Her sword flew
>apart
>>when she stabbed him.
>>
>>And I agree with the interpretation that the nazgul was -fated- to be
>killed
>>in that manner, not that he was immune to other forms of destruction.
>
>Possibly a Vulnerability? 2x BODY and STUN vs any attack made by a woman
>or nonhuman? I'd put this at 20 points, since I get the impression that
>women in the Third Age normally don't fight, and there aren't that many
>nonhumans willing to go toe to toe with a nazgul.
>
>Leah
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:44:36 -0500 (EST)
From: tdj723@webtv.net (thomas deja)
Subject: Re: Bad Habits of Poor Gamers
>From: gheald@worldnet.att.net (geoff heald)
>> But if it were simple, clear cut, kill the Joker
>> or someone else dies, right now,
>> immediately: Joker's toast, no regrets. Well,
>> the regret that he couldn't find another way
>> to stop him.
According to Denny O'Neil, who is in charge of the Batman books, even
that situation would not prompt Batman to kill--he does not kill under
any circumstances, and he does not come out at night (OTOH, Chuck Dixon
did a story in DETECTIVE COMICS in continuity where to save the Mayor of
Gotham or some such, Batman had to use a gun--which he did to, if I
recall correctly, wound the sniper)
>>Related: in the premere of Batman Beyond
>> (The 30 minute bit that ran on Kids WB
>> Saturday morning), did Bruce give up being
>> Batman because his pains had caused him
>> to almost fail, or because in his desperation,
>> he had grabbed an fired a gun?
A little of both--he retired because his physical weakness forced him to
consider using a gun.
"A trial without witnesses is like the Euro, a monetary system without
the benefits of paper money or coin--what's the fun of that?"
- --Harry Shearer
____________________________________
THE ULTIMATE HULK, containing the new story, "A Quiet, Normal Life," is
available now from Byron Preiss and Berkley
_______________________________
An except from the new story "Too Needy" can now be found at MAKE UP
YOUR OWN DAMN TITLE
www.freeyellow.com/members/tdj
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 11:37:40 -0500
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Batman's CAK (was Bad Habits of Poor Gamers)
>>IMO, Batman doesn't have code against killing, just against guns.
No offense, guys, but do you mind if I change the title on this
thread?
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 11:37:48 -0500
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Bad Habits of Poor Gamers
At 10:19 AM 1/17/99 -0500, Leah L Watts wrote:
>>>This one is iffy, but if Our Hero is up against a brick-type villain, a
>>>robot, or vehicle, I don't see where he's violated his CVK.
>>
>>Though not specifically detailed in my original message, I'm not
>>talking about going up against a brick. Obviously, 12 dice against
>>Tank Guy cannot be considered a killing attack. But what if he
>>throws 12 dice against a martial artist, figuring that, on the
>>average, he'll only get about 40-some points of stun and MAYBE 12
>>body, most of which will PROBABLY get absorbed by the guy's (activation
>>roll) armor. The possibility exists that this roll could severely
>>cripple the opponent.
>
>I'm confused -- are we talking about killing attacks or about
>high-powered attacks? Twelve dice of KA is going to do a whole lot more
>than 12 BODY unless someone loaded the dice.
>
A 12d6 normal EB is a killing attack when used against someone
with insufficient defenses.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 11:40:01 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Bad Habits of Poor Gamers
At 11:37 AM 1/17/1999 -0500, Mike Christodoulou wrote:
>>I'm confused -- are we talking about killing attacks or about
>>high-powered attacks? Twelve dice of KA is going to do a whole lot more
>>than 12 BODY unless someone loaded the dice.
>>
>
>A 12d6 normal EB is a killing attack when used against someone
>with insufficient defenses.
I agree completely, but given that most of the discussions here revolve
around mechanics and rules points where a capital letter can make a
difference in what's being said, I really think we should train ourselves
to use the words 'Killing Attack' (and capitalize it, to reduce confusion)
when talking about an actual HKA or RKA; high-powered attacks used against
someone with insufficient defenses could be called a "lethal attack", which
won't be confused with a specific Power.
Again, I agree that a 12d6 EB is a lethal attack when used against someone
with insufficient defenses, and should not be employed by a person with a
CAK if he has any reason to suspect his target has insufficient defenses.
Damon
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 11:34:24 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Batman's CAK (and long DC continuity rant)
At 06:53 AM 1/17/1999 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> In the few Batman comics I've read over the past few years, the only
>time the topic's come up, he's adamantly refused to kill. (I think this
>was in some part of the Contagion epic.) Has he intentionally killed
>someone at any time since the Zero Hour reboot, or at least since the
>Crisis on Infinite Earths?
It doesn't matter. The folks at DC are no longer bound by tired old
concepts like continuity and consistency. Crisis on Infinite Earths wasn't
bad enough. Even the nonsense brought about by Zero Hour didn't satisfy
these guys. No, now DC reveals what is possibly the greatest secret in
Creation: Hypertime.
Hypertime is described by Rip Hunter as "the vast, interconnected web of
parallel timelines which comprise all reality."
"Wait just a dang minute!" I hear you protest. "DC has always said that
time was linear, and that there are no divergent timelines or [at least
since the Crisis] parallel universes...that's why the events of Zero Hour
were such a big problem: THE [only] Timeline was being eaten away from
both ends."
Yeah, that's what they *said*.
The secrets of Hypertime are known only to "Rip Hunter, Time Master" and to
one "Jonathan", the adult son of Superman and Wonder Woman in a future
timeline. It was largely a mystery -- a myth, even -- to such cosmic
entities as the Oans, Highfather Izaya, the wizard Shazam, Zeus and so
forth. Apparently the DC staff didn't know about it until now, either.
How does it work. Here's the scary part, in the form of Rip Hunter's
answer to that very question:
"Off the *central* timeline we just left. Events of importance often cause
divergent 'tributaries' to branch off the main timestream. But what's
astounding is that there's far more to it than that. On occasion, those
tributaries *return* -- sometimes feeding back into the central timeline,
other times overlapping it briefly before charting an entirely new course.
An old friend is suddenly recalled after years of being forgotten. A scrap
of history becomes misremembered, even reinvented in common wisdom.
Don't be frightened by that. Don't feel threatened. These hypertime
fluxes...these carryovers from one [divergent timeline] to another...let
them simply be a reminder that the lives we lead are forever part of a
greater legend."
Hunter was explaining all this to several characters who were in Hypertime
with him; looking around they saw a vast array of portals, glimpses into
these alternate timelines and universes. Visible in that scene were some
things familiar to longtime comic fans: Julius Schwartz standing next to
Flash's Cosmic Treadmill...Lana Lang in her Insect Queen guise...Batman,
Jr. and Superman, Jr. (teen sons of the originals, appearing in World's
Finest in the mid 1970's)...the *original* Superman Red and Superman
Blue...Bat-Mite...Captain Carrot...Superboy & Krypto...plus a number of
Elseworlds visions.
DC has given its writers and editors a license to ignore any semblance of
stability in its storytelling universe from this point on, as well as a pat
answer to every slip in continuity in the past.
"How can Superman remember his pre-Crisis cousin Kara *after* the Crisis?"
"Hypertime."
"The fact that [insert fanboy reference] was established in Detective
Comics #437, but now it says [something contradictory]. How do you explain
that?"
"Hypertime."
"How the hell can this former Green Lantern guest-star in Kyle Raynor's
book? That GL was one of the ones Hal Jordan killed in his rampage after
the destruction of Coast City...he was on his way to Oa for a reckoning and
killed several GLs that got in his way."
"Hypertime."
"Denny O'Neil has long since established that Batman has an inviolable code
against killing...yet in [a hypothetical issue not yet printed] he kills
the bad guy, and then six issues later he seems to have forgotten ever
killing anyone. What gives?"
"Hypertime."
I hate it.
Damon
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 07:40:30 -0600
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
Subject: Trigger Question
When you use a power with Trigget, can this power be reused immediately, or
do you have to wait until the trigger is set off?
If it can be used before the trigger is set off, how do you keep people from
having hundreds of precast attacks ready to go off?
If you have to trigger the power before it can be used again, how can you
simulate things like potions, which can be made in multiple doses at a time,
and which typically use triggers to activate them?
Guy
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:56:45 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Hayden <mhayden@tsoft.com>
Subject: RE: Nazgul Invulnerability (was Re: Aragorn)
On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, John P Weatherman wrote:
> I think I would tend to agree more with Scott Nolan's view that the
> "invulnerability" was more a matter of prophesy than actual power.
Uhh, not to be a jerk, but it was my idea, not Scott's...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Michael D. Hayden -- mhayden@silverhammer.org -- http://silverhammer.org/
Hey, I use Procmail with Spam Bouncer, so spam away! (^_^)
"What you are about to see is real. These are not actors; they're directors."
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 05:23:45 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Bad Habits of Poor Gamers
>>I'm confused -- are we talking about killing attacks or about
>>high-powered attacks? Twelve dice of KA is going to do a whole lot more
>>than 12 BODY unless someone loaded the dice.
>>
>
>A 12d6 normal EB is a killing attack when used against someone
>with insufficient defenses.
Sure, but the likelyhood of 'sufficient defenses' changes rather seriously.
Normals are liable to be in serious trouble against either, but in the
context of normal superhero campaigns, people exhibiting superhuman (or even
near-human Batman type abilities) can reasonably be expected to be able take
one without serious injury, but not the other. A particularly careful and
extreme CAK character in my campaign might be cautious using a 12D6 EB
versus a martial artist villain he wasn't too familiar with...but I wouldn't
consider him remiss if he didn't. I _would_ consider him so with the
killing attack.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:13:54 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Trigger Question
At 07:40 AM 1/16/99 -0600, Guy Hoyle wrote:
>When you use a power with Trigget, can this power be reused immediately, or
>do you have to wait until the trigger is set off?
Generally speaking, I'd opt for the latter if through a Focus without
Charges, the former if not.
>If it can be used before the trigger is set off, how do you keep people from
>having hundreds of precast attacks ready to go off?
Good point... perhaps the character doesn't recover the END or Charges
from use until the Trigger is set off?
>If you have to trigger the power before it can be used again, how can you
>simulate things like potions, which can be made in multiple doses at a time,
>and which typically use triggers to activate them?
Like I say... with Charges. A bank of potions, if one were to take
Trigger as a mechanic to represent their application, would be separated
through Charges. The character can't recover the Charges until they're
used up.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:06:19 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Bad Habits of Poor Gamers
At 10:19 AM 1/17/99 EST, Leah L Watts wrote:
>>>This one is iffy, but if Our Hero is up against a brick-type villain, a
>>>robot, or vehicle, I don't see where he's violated his CVK.
>>
>>Though not specifically detailed in my original message, I'm not
>>talking about going up against a brick. Obviously, 12 dice against
>>Tank Guy cannot be considered a killing attack. But what if he
>>throws 12 dice against a martial artist, figuring that, on the
>>average, he'll only get about 40-some points of stun and MAYBE 12
>>body, most of which will PROBABLY get absorbed by the guy's (activation
>>roll) armor. The possibility exists that this roll could severely
>>cripple the opponent.
>
>I'm confused -- are we talking about killing attacks or about
>high-powered attacks? Twelve dice of KA is going to do a whole lot more
>than 12 BODY unless someone loaded the dice.
I think he meant killing, with an intentional lower case k, as in
potentially lethal damage, not Killing Attacks. (In fact, I've interpreted
it that way since the matter was brought up.)
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:49:38 -0800 (PST)
From: Bryant Durrell <durrell@innocence.com>
Subject: Re: Bad Habits of Poor Gamers
Wayne Shaw writes:
> >>I'm confused -- are we talking about killing attacks or about
> >>high-powered attacks? Twelve dice of KA is going to do a whole lot more
> >>than 12 BODY unless someone loaded the dice.
> >
> >A 12d6 normal EB is a killing attack when used against someone
> >with insufficient defenses.
>
> Sure, but the likelyhood of 'sufficient defenses' changes rather seriously.
> Normals are liable to be in serious trouble against either, but in the
> context of normal superhero campaigns, people exhibiting superhuman (or even
> near-human Batman type abilities) can reasonably be expected to be able take
> one without serious injury, but not the other. A particularly careful and
> extreme CAK character in my campaign might be cautious using a 12D6 EB
> versus a martial artist villain he wasn't too familiar with...but I wouldn't
> consider him remiss if he didn't. I _would_ consider him so with the
> killing attack.
Indeed. This is highly campaign-dependent; in the "stock" campaign,
12d6 of EB is pretty reasonable under the conditions Wayne describes.
I think if I were GMing and one of my PCs had a code vs. killing, I'd
want to know more details. Does it mean that the PC will never risk
killing? Does it mean that the PC will take the chance of killing
someone as long as it's sufficiently small? What's the PC's reaction
to an accidental death going to be?
Lots of important questions to ask before you can judge whether or not
the PC is violating his or her code.
- --
Bryant Durrell [] durrell@innocence.com [] http://www.innocence.com/~durrell
[----------------------------------------------------------------------------]
"You'll never have a quiet world till you knock the patriotism out of the
human race." -- George Bernard Shaw
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 16:18:21 -0600 (Central Standard Time)
From: Tim Gilberg <gilberg@ou.edu>
Subject: Aarrrgh!
My Vikings lost.
Gary Anderson missed.
Damn.
Sorry, had to vent.
-Tim Gilberg
-"English Majors of the World! Untie!"
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 17:14:07 -0500
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Bad Habits of Poor Gamers
At 01:49 PM 1/17/99 -0800, Bryant Durrell wrote:
>I think if I were GMing and one of my PCs had a code vs. killing, I'd
>want to know more details. Does it mean that the PC will never risk
>killing? Does it mean that the PC will take the chance of killing
>someone as long as it's sufficiently small? What's the PC's reaction
>to an accidental death going to be?
Whoa! Going off track here. This is a valid thread, but one
for another time.
====================== =================================================
Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
====================== =================================================
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 16:55:38 -0500
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Batman's CAK (was Bad Habits of Poor Gamers)
>>IMO, Batman doesn't have code against killing, just against guns.
>
For the record, I respect that Denny O'Neil disagrees with me _and_ that
his is currently the official word.
However, I'd give the late Bob Kane a lot more respect on this point, and
feel even he might not have it right, since Batman change quite a bit in
over 50 years.
If the current Batman is not a mentaly ill ruthless killer with the main
deifference between himself and the Joker being the Batman "has found a
cunstructive outlet for his psychosis," well, that probably explains why I
don't read Batman. I was never a fan of the bat-themed member of the
Superfriends or JLA either.
============================
Geoff Heald
============================
And it's a little-known fact that the Y1K problem caused the Dark Ages.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 17:23:52 -0500 (EST)
From: tdj723@webtv.net (thomas deja)
Subject: Re: Batman's CAK (and long DC continuity rant)
>From: griffin@txdirect.net (Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin)
>>It doesn't matter. The folks at DC are no
>> longer bound by tired old concepts like
>> continuity and consistency. Crisis on Infinite
>> Earths wasn't bad enough. Even the
>> nonsense brought about by Zero Hour didn't
>> satisfy these guys.
CRISIS was, in my opinion, a successful clean-up of a continuty that had
gotten so miserably complex it was impossible to understand for new
readers....but then editorial got involed and screwed things up,
tweaking things here and there and leading to ZERO HOUR, a miserable,
incomprehensible attempt to clean up the remaining mess that made my
head (and many other readers' heads) hurt....
But then, what do you expect from Dan Jurgens, who has been writing
comics for years and still can't write realistic dialogue?
>>No, now DC reveals what is possibly the
>> greatest secret in Creation: Hypertime.
>>Hypertime is described by Rip Hunter as "the
>> vast, interconnected web of parallel
>> timelines which comprise all reality."
I think the concept of Hypertime is basically DC's attempt to please
both the fans who loved the whole multiversal Earth1, Earth2, Earth3,
EarthXYZ concept *and* those of us who liked things simple
thank-you-very-much. They're saying that the DC Universe is BOTH a
coherent timeline AND a multitude of timelines at the same time.
Well, we all knows what happens when you try to please everyone....
"A trial without witnesses is like the Euro, a monetary system without
the benefits of paper money or coin--what's the fun of that?"
- --Harry Shearer
____________________________________
THE ULTIMATE HULK, containing the new story, "A Quiet, Normal Life," is
available now from Byron Preiss and Berkley
_______________________________
An except from the new story "Too Needy" can now be found at MAKE UP
YOUR OWN DAMN TITLE
www.freeyellow.com/members/tdj
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:13:49 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Tolkien Characters
Michael Surbrook wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Jan 1999, Scott Nolan wrote:
>
> > In all the repositories of Hero Characters out there, has anyone
> > ever done all the characters from "The Lord of the Rings"
> > or "The Silmarillion"?
>
> Hmmm... not yet. I was thinking about doing the LOTR characters. I even
> did some notes about Ringwraths. How do people feel about being able to
> cause damage with your PRE? I mean, the Ringwraiths tended to cause
> 'normals' to simply collapse and loose the will to fight (and seemingly -
> live). I do know that the LOTRs characters shouldn't be all that
> expensive. Perhaps in the 50+50 or 75+75 range.
>
> If anyone does these, let me know, I'd love to put them on my site.
>
> Michael Surbrook / susano@otd.com
> http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
> "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion
This sounds to to be a PRE + 30, special effect fainting. If people
are supposed to die from this attack also then link in an RKA to
do the damage when the PRE+30 occurs. To be able to do this
to standard troops (pre 13-15) you would need to about 13 dice
of presence.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 17:09:23 -0600
From: Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org>
Subject: Re: Attn: Steve Long/Multiple Attacks in one Phase
[tim ridicules my interpretation]
I believe there are at least two schools of thought here:
(a) the group of people for whom a Damage Class or Active Point cap is
almost a facet of the universe: since you *can't* exceed the cap, your
character would never intentionally do so. Activating both your 12d6 EB
and your 6d6 Flash at maximum power yields 6d6 EB and 3d6 Flash, because
12 DC is like the speed of light (impossible to exceed).
I don't agree with this stance. But I think I understand it.
(b) the group of people for whom DC/AP caps are Character Design Guidelines.
"No," the GM says, "you can't take +8d6 HA on your staff and +6 DC
with martial arts, even though you don't have staff bought as a Martial
Arts form. Later, you'll just pay the 1 point and have a 19d6 strike!"
This viewpoint requires a *lot* more GM attention and rules knowledge.
(c) any more? other than the "campaign caps? this is anime!" camp?
Given that I'm in the second camp, and Rat's in the first (with Tim?),
do some of our disagreements now seem like cross-misinterpretations?
Donald
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:18:12 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: A seriously weird modification to speed
Max Callahan wrote:
> <snip excellent statistical analysis>
> Consider a speed 5 character against some speed 3 thugs, under the speed
> chart the speed 5 character can throw all their levels into dcv and dodge
> on 3, make an all out attack on 5 knowing that they will go first on 8,
> dodge with levels on dcv in 8 make another all out attack in 10 and then
> dodge again in 12, "heck I'll sweep in 10, so what if I'm at 1/2 dcv, I go
> first in 12 after all"
> Now consider a speed 5 character against some speed 3 thugs when they have
> to roll for their actions each turn. The only thing the speed 5 character
> can be sure of is that on any given segment each thug has a 25% chance to
> act, all OCV or all DCV level allocations become less viable, and
> maneuvering to reduce the number of attackers becomes real attractive. (All
> this comes out of a tendency of many of the combats that I've seen, they
> tend to turn into "battle ship duels" with characters staying mostly
> immoble and lobbing shots at one another until someone falls over. This
> tendancy goes against how combat plays out in both "the real world" and in
> comics, and so I'm looking for ways to change this, thus the speed idea.
This is what block is for. Have the speed 3 agent block one of those all out
attacks and then he automatically get to attack first on his next phase.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:18:03 -0500 (EST)
From: tdj723@webtv.net (thomas deja)
Subject: Killing Codes (was Bad Habits of Poor Gamers)
>From: Cypriot@concentric.net (Mike Christodoulou)
>>At 01:49 PM 1/17/99 -0800, Bryant Durrell wrote:
>>>I think if I were GMing and one of my PCs
>>> had a code vs. killing, I'd want to know
>>> more details. Does it mean that the PC will
>>> never risk killing? Does it mean that the PC
>>> will take the chance of killing someone as
>>> long as it's sufficiently small? What's the
>>> PC's reaction to an accidental death going
>>> to be?
>Whoa! Going off track here. This is a valid
> thread, but one for another time.
so let's start now....
The sad truth is many players see 'Code v. Killing as 'Gimme Points'--a
way of getting twenty points without having to worry about them being
made accountable...
The problem with that is that the perception of what constitutes a 'Code
v/ Killing' varies from player to player as much as it does from
character to character. You would not apply, let's say, Superman's Code
v. Killing to Guy Gardener (the former will not under any circumstances;
the latter can has been goaded once by extraordinary emotional duress
into doing so...). And since the player's conception of the CAK may be
different than the GM's, conflict happens when that disad comes into
play.
Steven Long, in DARK CHAMPIONS, presented a decent 'sliding scale' of
CAK which I still use to guage my character's willingness to use leathal
force--if a person is willing to under certain circumstances to kill, he
gets less point for the CAK.
"A trial without witnesses is like the Euro, a monetary system without
the benefits of paper money or coin--what's the fun of that?"
- --Harry Shearer
____________________________________
THE ULTIMATE HULK, containing the new story, "A Quiet, Normal Life," is
available now from Byron Preiss and Berkley
_______________________________
An except from the new story "Too Needy" can now be found at MAKE UP
YOUR OWN DAMN TITLE
www.freeyellow.com/members/tdj
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:29:03 -0500 (EST)
From: tdj723@webtv.net (thomas deja)
Subject: Re: Batman's CAK (was Bad Habits of Poor Gamers)
>From: gheald@worldnet.att.net (geoff heald)
>>For the record, I respect that Denny O'Neil
>> disagrees with me _and_ that his is currently
>> the official word.
..and while personally I pointed out O'Neil's 'mission statement,' I do
think a lot of it is flawed--the idea that Batman is treated as an urban
myth bothers me, as does the other O'Neil ultimatum that 'Batman never
goes out during the day.'
>However, I'd give the late Bob Kane a lot more
> respect on this point, and feel even he might
> not have it right, since Batman change quite a
> bit in over 50 years.
you'll see no arguments from me, Geoff, in that respect--the Bob Kane
Batman was initially a vigilante who shot people (but then, Supes used
to toss people out of building; not many modern day fans realize how
*nasty* some of the original versions of these characters were; it's
really not until the late 40's/early 50's that super-hero comics become
campy jokes)
>If the current Batman is not a mentaly ill
> ruthless killer with the main deifference
> between himself and the Joker being the
> Batman "has found a cunstructive outlet for
> his psychosis," well, that probably explains
> why I don't read Batman.
Actually, the main difference between the Batman and the Joker right now
is that Bruce Wayne *wants* to get better; until this idiotic NO MAN'S
LAND storyline, the present writers (especially Doug Moench) have been
slowly showing Wayne trying to find a life outside of his thirst for
justice, with varying degrees of success.
"A trial without witnesses is like the Euro, a monetary system without
the benefits of paper money or coin--what's the fun of that?"
- --Harry Shearer
____________________________________
THE ULTIMATE HULK, containing the new story, "A Quiet, Normal Life," is
available now from Byron Preiss and Berkley
_______________________________
An except from the new story "Too Needy" can now be found at MAKE UP
YOUR OWN DAMN TITLE
www.freeyellow.com/members/tdj
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:56:16 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Batman's CAK (was Bad Habits of Poor Gamers)
At 06:29 PM 1/17/1999 -0500, thomas deja wrote:
>Actually, the main difference between the Batman and the Joker right now
>is that Bruce Wayne *wants* to get better; until this idiotic NO MAN'S
>LAND storyline, the present writers (especially Doug Moench) have been
>slowly showing Wayne trying to find a life outside of his thirst for
>justice, with varying degrees of success.
And about time, too. For a lot of years, one of the big constrasts between
Batman and Superman was that Clark Kent was a real person, while Bruce
Wayne was just someone Batman pretended to be during the day. The Batman
persona so completely dominated the Bruce Wayne persona that Bruce might as
well have been just another false identity, like "Matches" Malone.
Damon
------------------------------
Date: 17 Jan 1999 19:54:13 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Attn: Steve Long/Multiple Attacks in one Phase
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"D" == Damon <Michael> writes:
D> Campaign guidelines and limits are a good thing; AP and DC restrictions
D> are a good way to structure some of those limits. But they *don't*
D> suddenly come into play in the middle of a game.
No?
I have 40 Strength and an Offensive Strike maneuver which means I can
usually do a 12D6 strike as my most powerful attack. Another character
hits me with an Aid that increases my Strength to 65. Are you as the GM
going to let me throw around 17D6 punches in your 12DC campaign?
If you say, "yes," what is the point of having a DC cap if you are not
going to use it?
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
------------------------------
Date: 17 Jan 1999 20:14:43 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: /home/ratinox/whatthe...
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Hash: SHA1
Okay, what's the deal?
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ Earth, presumably from outer space.
------------------------------
Date: 17 Jan 1999 20:00:37 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Attn: Steve Long/Multiple Attacks in one Phase
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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"WS" == Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com> writes:
WS> Not a good enough answer for me. It's far too likely for two powers
WS> bought seperately being forced to operate at the total DC limit being
WS> not only less useful, but downright useless.
I thought this was a no-brainer. If you feel that a particular combination
of your powers is going to be ineffective, don't use that combination. It
isn't like anyone is twisting your arm, forcing you to use your powers at
ineffective levels. But just like everything else in Hero, if you have 60
points to spend on powers you can get one big EB or RKA, or you can have
one smaller EB and one smaller RKA, and maybe a small Flash as well. You
trade depth for breadth.
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:37:46 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Tolkien Characters
At 06:13 PM 1/17/1999 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote:
>
>
>Michael Surbrook wrote:
>> Hmmm... not yet. I was thinking about doing the LOTR characters. I even
>> did some notes about Ringwraths. How do people feel about being able to
>> cause damage with your PRE? I mean, the Ringwraiths tended to cause
>> 'normals' to simply collapse and loose the will to fight (and seemingly -
>> live). I do know that the LOTRs characters shouldn't be all that
>> expensive. Perhaps in the 50+50 or 75+75 range.
>
>This sounds to to be a PRE + 30, special effect fainting. If people
>are supposed to die from this attack also then link in an RKA to
>do the damage when the PRE+30 occurs. To be able to do this
>to standard troops (pre 13-15) you would need to about 13 dice
>of presence.
What are the problems with this (apart from expense):
2d6 Energy Blast, No Knockback, 0 END/Persistent (+1), BOECV (works vs.
Mental Defense, +1), AoE: Cone (+1).
This 40 Active Point attack would be active in each of the ringwraith's
Phases. It would do 2d6 Normal Damage to anyone within the cone (the
length of one side of the cone being 9"). PD and ED would not affect it,
but Mental Defense would. The wraith must be able to see the targets (this
is not a Limitation, but a requirement of BOECV).
AVLD can also be defined as working against Mental Defense. It could be
substituted for BOECV above, boosting the Power to 43 Active Points and
perhaps lengthening the side of the Cone by 1".
I have not reviewed the source material for a description of the effect
ringwraiths have on people; this is just a response to the suggestion of
linking a Power to a PRE Attack, something I find questionable.
Damon
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #143
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