Digest Archives Vol 1 Issue 144
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Monday, January 18, 1999 4:15 AM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #144
champ-l-digest Monday, January 18 1999 Volume 01 : Number 144
In this issue:
Re: Cool Game Stuff
Re: Bad Habits of Poor List Members
Re: Aarrrgh!
Re: Killing Codes (was Bad Habits of Poor Gamers)
Re: Attn: Steve Long/Multiple Attacks in one Phase
Re: /home/ratinox/whatthe...
Re: Batman's CAK (was Bad Habits of Poor Gamers)
Re: Upcoming Champions books
Re: Batman's CAK (was Bad Habits of Poor Gamers)
Re: Attn: Steve Long/Multiple Attacks in one Phase
Re: Attn: Steve Long/Multiple Attacks in one Phase
Re: superleap attacks
Re: Attn: Steve Long/Multiple Attacks in one Phase
Re: Campaign guidelines/Damage caps
Re: Character: The Balrog (And you thought Aragorn was controversial!)
Re: Trigger Question
Re: Trigger Question
Re: Attn: Steve Long/Multiple Attacks in one Phase
Re: Campaign guidelines/Damage caps
Re: superleap attacks
Re: Character: The Balrog (And you thought Aragorn was controversial!)
Re: superleap attacks
Re: Attn: Steve Long/Multiple Attacks in one Phase
Re: Campaign guidelines/Damage caps
Re: Batman's CAK (and long DC continuity rant)
Re: Attn: Steve Long/Multiple Attacks in one Phase
Re: Attn: Steve Long/Multiple Attacks in one Phase
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 17 Jan 1999 20:17:51 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Cool Game Stuff
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"S" == SteveL1979 <SteveL1979@aol.com> writes:
S> << Enh. Trent Reznor can bite me. >>
S> Aren't you worried about rabies?
Rats.
Rabies.
I think he has more to worry about from me.
'Nuff said.
:)
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------------------------------
Date: 17 Jan 1999 20:13:54 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Bad Habits of Poor List Members
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"TG" == Tim Gilberg <gilberg@ou.edu> writes:
TG> Nope. Indescriminately insulting list members is bad. However,
TG> anyone insulting Rat or Rat insulting anyone is fine.
Ah! equal opportunity insulting.
At least it is more or less fair to all involved. :)
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 20:34:06 -0500
From: "Ronald A. Miller" <rabmiller@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Aarrrgh!
> My Vikings lost.
>
You wanna talk venting? Try being a Lions fan... :-P
I should seek therapy!
Miller
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:51:39 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Killing Codes (was Bad Habits of Poor Gamers)
At 06:18 PM 1/17/1999 -0500, thomas deja wrote:
>The problem with that is that the perception of what constitutes a 'Code
>v/ Killing' varies from player to player as much as it does from
>character to character. You would not apply, let's say, Superman's Code
>v. Killing to Guy Gardener (the former will not under any circumstances;
>the latter can has been goaded once by extraordinary emotional duress
>into doing so...).
Superman has also killed. He executed three Phantom Zone escapees who
would otherwise have destroyed Earth, in the process killing every living
thing on it. Three lives against some six billion. He got out the
kryptonite and offed the bad guys. Felt really bad about it for a long
time afterward, but you can't say he won't kill under *any* circumstances,
because he's already done it.
Nor do I think it matters *when* he did it: post-Crisis, pre-Zero Hour or
in a flux of Hypertime. The event took place in the mainline DC universe,
not an Elseworlds title or a "dream, hoax or imanginary story".
For what it's worth, I'd allow a character with Superman's track record to
have a 20 point CAK before *and* after such an extreme event...but he would
suffer psychological trauma for quite a while afterward, and would not be
entitled to any more points* for it, since it would just be a side effect
of his original CAK.
* I mention the points only because some GMs allow characters to acquire
Disadvantages during the course of play, and under some circumstances may
allow the character to gain points from the new Disads, even if that pushed
the character beyond his starting Disad total. I can think of a few
situations where I *would* allow this, but I have not yet had any of those
situations come up in a game.
Damon
------------------------------
Date: 17 Jan 1999 20:10:40 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Attn: Steve Long/Multiple Attacks in one Phase
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"DT" == Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org> writes:
DT> Given that I'm in the second camp, and Rat's in the first (with Tim?),
DT> do some of our disagreements now seem like cross-misinterpretations?
You do misundersand, but you do not understand what it is you misunderstand.
There is only one camp: caps are tools GMs use to ensure that nothing
unbalances their campaigns. They should be used during all aspects of the
game, not just character creation, not just during play.
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------------------------------
Date: 17 Jan 1999 20:55:30 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: /home/ratinox/whatthe...
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"Rat" == Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes:
Rat> Okay, what's the deal?
Forget it. Looks like the new version of my mail program is doing
something very strange, converting emoticons to nonexistant filenames.
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 19:44:38 -0600
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@binary.net>
Subject: Re: Batman's CAK (was Bad Habits of Poor Gamers)
Actually I have always enjoyed the fact that Bruce Wayne wasnt as real as the
bat. It broke/stretched the heroic mold.... spiderman is a facet of Peters
personality he doesnt get to express very often but is way less real than Peter
Parker.
And the parallels between batman and his villains are supposed to be edgy that
too is interesting... strip him of these traits and he looses his Dark Knight
appeal, might as well go watch the campy series without these traits.
"Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" wrote:
> At 06:29 PM 1/17/1999 -0500, thomas deja wrote:
> >Actually, the main difference between the Batman and the Joker right now
> >is that Bruce Wayne *wants* to get better; until this idiotic NO MAN'S
> >LAND storyline, the present writers (especially Doug Moench) have been
> >slowly showing Wayne trying to find a life outside of his thirst for
> >justice, with varying degrees of success.
>
> And about time, too. For a lot of years, one of the big constrasts between
> Batman and Superman was that Clark Kent was a real person, while Bruce
> Wayne was just someone Batman pretended to be during the day. The Batman
> persona so completely dominated the Bruce Wayne persona that Bruce might as
> well have been just another false identity, like "Matches" Malone.
>
> Damon
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 21:28:06 -0500
From: "Dave Mattingly" <dave@haymaker.win.net>
Subject: Re: Upcoming Champions books
Joe M asks:
>What kind of stuff are you planning to expand upon, Dave?
>The original Champions genre book is only like 20 pages.
Here's some of what I plan to include:
the nature of superheroes,
how to create a superhero,
how to run the superhero genre
common superhero origins, backgrounds, and skills,
superhero archetypes & non-archetypes,
superhero combat,
world-building and superhero plot hooks,
supporting cast and places,
superpower sourcebook (how to do X in Hero),
superhero archetype templates,
archetype skill packages,
random superhero generator,
and lots of examples and characters.
Dave Mattingly
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 20:59:20 -0500 (EST)
From: tdj723@webtv.net (thomas deja)
Subject: Re: Batman's CAK (was Bad Habits of Poor Gamers)
>From: griffin@txdirect.net (Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin)
>>For a lot of years, one of the big constrasts
>> between Batman and Superman was that
>> Clark Kent was a real person, while Bruce
>> Wayne was just someone Batman
>> pretended to be during the day. The Batman
>> persona so completely dominated the Bruce
>> Wayne persona that Bruce might as well
>> have been just another false identity, like
>> "Matches" Malone.
I think many writers until Moench felt that whereas Superman was Clark
Kent's alter-ego, Bruce Wayne's was Batman. Having Bruce realize he
needed to grow as a human being was one of the few positives to grow out
of the whole Knightfall sequence....
"A trial without witnesses is like the Euro, a monetary system without
the benefits of paper money or coin--what's the fun of that?"
- --Harry Shearer
____________________________________
THE ULTIMATE HULK, containing the new story, "A Quiet, Normal Life," is
available now from Byron Preiss and Berkley
_______________________________
An except from the new story "Too Needy" can now be found at MAKE UP
YOUR OWN DAMN TITLE
www.freeyellow.com/members/tdj
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 20:31:01 -0600 (Central Standard Time)
From: Tim Gilberg <gilberg@ou.edu>
Subject: Re: Attn: Steve Long/Multiple Attacks in one Phase
> D> Campaign guidelines and limits are a good thing; AP and DC restrictions
> D> are a good way to structure some of those limits. But they *don't*
> D> suddenly come into play in the middle of a game.
>
> No?
Yes and no.
> I have 40 Strength and an Offensive Strike maneuver which means I can
> usually do a 12D6 strike as my most powerful attack. Another character
> hits me with an Aid that increases my Strength to 65. Are you as the GM
> going to let me throw around 17D6 punches in your 12DC campaign?
Yup. With an AID or Haymaker, etc. The way I see it, the DC
limits are both for creation and play. But certain attacks/powers I will
allow to go over limits, with permission. But, when combining two attack
powers characters will be held to their own personal limits.
For example, if someone only has a 10 DC (50 AP) attack, then the
most a combined attack could be is 50 AP. AID can up anything, however.
> If you say, "yes," what is the point of having a DC cap if you are not
> going to use it?
AIDs are a special case. Would you dissallow a Haymaker that was
more than 12 DC?
-Tim Gilberg
-"English Majors of the World! Untie!"
------------------------------
Date: 17 Jan 1999 21:41:48 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Attn: Steve Long/Multiple Attacks in one Phase
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"TG" == Tim Gilberg <gilberg@ou.edu> writes:
TG> For example, if someone only has a 10 DC (50 AP) attack, then the
TG> most a combined attack could be is 50 AP.
Interesting... I had not thought of that. I see the merit, but I am not
sure I agree with it. Something to think about.
[...]
TG> AIDs are a special case. Would you dissallow a Haymaker that was
TG> more than 12 DC?
Haymaker has enough baggage that I would probably not prohibit it. In a
12DC campaign, I would most likely prohibit a Haymaker that has a base
strike of more than 12DCs, though. I would want to be careful, because
this could open up the way to significant abuse from the martial arts
maneuvers (60 Strength + Offensive Strike, for example).
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:29:52 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: superleap attacks
Ronald A. Miller wrote:
> Next subject, please: Has anybody out there tried to simulate an attack
> that is geared around jumping (Superleaping) at an opponent, and bouncing
> OFF him causing (I'd say) Move By damage? I would say that this would
> require some levels in Superleap to perfect the 180 degree move off the
> target and maybe an Acrobatics roll to enhance the attack's chances. I
> think, too, that a separately bought Damage Resistance can be employed to
> minimize the Hero's damage if the Acrobatics roll is successful. Comments?
Don't buy it as a superleap attack. Instead buy it as a ranged
physical energy blast with the SX as you leaping at the target and
bouncing back. Gear it to the amount of damage you would normally do if
you were leaping at the target and apply appropiate advantages and
limitations. (There you go, Bob. Right terminology for ya.)
- --
Rick Holding
If only "common sense" was just a bit more common...
or if you prefer... You call this logic ?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:46:52 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Attn: Steve Long/Multiple Attacks in one Phase
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> "D" == Damon <Michael> writes:
>
> D> Campaign guidelines and limits are a good thing; AP and DC restrictions
> D> are a good way to structure some of those limits. But they *don't*
> D> suddenly come into play in the middle of a game.
>
> No?
>
> I have 40 Strength and an Offensive Strike maneuver which means I can
> usually do a 12D6 strike as my most powerful attack. Another character
> hits me with an Aid that increases my Strength to 65. Are you as the GM
> going to let me throw around 17D6 punches in your 12DC campaign?
>
> If you say, "yes," what is the point of having a DC cap if you are not
> going to use it?
If I may?
My impressions of DC caps were that they are applied during the design
of said characters. Barring deliberate collusion and rule rortting
between players, if one player helps "focus" anothers abilities at
certain times, thats what teams are for. But, as I said, if it would
come into effect all the time, then the GM steps in and puts a stop to
it.
At what point do DC caps come into effect. Before or after haymakers.
What about move bys and move throughs. Cannonball specials? Teleport
UAO's? I do agree with Rat that some sort of control is required, but
you must allow the players creative use of their abilities, otherwise it
stops being a game.
- --
Rick Holding
If only "common sense" was just a bit more common...
or if you prefer... You call this logic ?
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 21:39:18 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Campaign guidelines/Damage caps
At 07:54 PM 1/17/1999 -0500, you wrote:
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>"D" == Damon <Michael> writes:
>
>D> Campaign guidelines and limits are a good thing; AP and DC restrictions
>D> are a good way to structure some of those limits. But they *don't*
>D> suddenly come into play in the middle of a game.
>
>No?
No. They don't *suddenly* -- that is, without warning or advance notice --
apply to a game, in a situation which is both disadvantageous to a player
*and* one he'd tried to prepare for when he built his character -- just
because the GM overlooked some things when he was laying ground rules for
the campaign.
Set any limits you want, and stick to them as firmly as you like. But tell
your players *ahead of time* what the limits are going to be. Don't forbid
them the full use of a set of abilities *you* approved at the start of the
game, just because *you* didn't foresee a possible application of those
abilities to get past a campaign limit or restriction *you* failed to
mention in the first place.
>I have 40 Strength and an Offensive Strike maneuver which means I can
>usually do a 12D6 strike as my most powerful attack. Another character
>hits me with an Aid that increases my Strength to 65. Are you as the GM
>going to let me throw around 17D6 punches in your 12DC campaign?
If I had set a 12DC cap for my campaign, I'd make sure players were aware
of that from the outset, not spring it on them for the first time in the
middle of combat. Making sure all parties know what to expect ahead of
time avoids a lot of potential problems. For example, a player would know
that even with a [regular, bought and paid for] STR of 60 *and* the
Offensive Strike, his max damage is still 12DC. He can then decide not to
buy the Offensive Strike at all, since it'd be 5 points for a *penalty* to
his OCV, and no compensating damage bonus. The situation that I was
responding to didn't involve two characters in cooperation, but a single
character who'd apparently been allowed by the GM to spend points on
something the GM knew he wouldn't be permitted to use.
Even with a 12DC cap in place, I probably would allow the STR boost from
Aid on a one-time basis, if in came up in a way that demonstrated creative
thinking and teamwork (say, if new Hero players were involved...this sort
of thing would be obvious to old timers), or if the characters were in a
situation were nothing less would do (and I'd have flubbed as a GM if I got
them into such a situation, so I'd feel obliged to let them have use this
if it seemed the only way out).
>If you say, "yes," what is the point of having a DC cap if you are not
>going to use it?
If it seemed to make play more interesting (hard to imagine how just
boosting STR *could* make play much more interesting, but *if* it did) I'd
consider allowing this to take place on an infrequent but occasional basis.
I would have to devise some drawback, though, perhaps like inducing severe
fatigue in the character immediately after the incredible feat.
I would not allow this to become a regular event. ("Yawn! Standard Combat
Routine -- we use Aid to give Mighty Mortal a STR boost as usual.") I
believe there are few if any absolutes in gaming, and I'm willing to allow
for the possibility of exceptions to most rules if the situation seems to
warrant it, but permitting the characters to exceed the DC limit on a
regular basis *would* eliminate the point of having a limit.
Damon
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:12:47 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Character: The Balrog (And you thought Aragorn was controversial!)
Scott Nolan wrote:
>
> THE BALROG
>
> 55 STR 0* *=Growth Figured In
> 20 DEX 30
> 25 CON 30
I would consider upping this a bit, to at least 30.
> 30 BODY 22*
> 18 INT 8
> 25 EGO 30
> 60 PRE 50
> 4 COM 3
> 18 PD 16
> 14 ED 9
> 4 SPD 10
> 20 REC 26
> 50 END 0
A bit more endurance is needed to use its attacks. Otherwise, it will
be a gasping wreck in no time flat.
> 100 STUN 52*
> Characteristics Cost: 280
>
> 13 2" Change Environment,"Fire Aura",No Range,0 END Persistent
I notice that it doesn't have a damage shield to also simulate its fire
aura. It doesn't need to be very big, maybe a dice killing.
> 25 2" Darkness,Sight Group,No Range,Personal Immunity 4
>
> 15 25% Damage Reduction (PD),resistant
> 15 25% Damage Reduction (ED),resistant
> 36 Desolidification,Only to Fire, 0 END Persistent,Always On
> 8 8/8 Damage Resistance
> 30 3 BODY Regeneration
> 10 10 Power Defense
> 10 10 Flash Defense
> 5 10 Mental Defense
> 5 5 Lack Of Weakness
>
> 30 Life Support,doesn't breathe,doesn't eat/sleep/excrete,safe
> in vacuum/pressure,safe in radiation,safe in heat/cold,
> immune to disease,immune to aging
>
> 60 9 LVLS Growth,Always On,0 END Persistent
>
> 5 Infrared Vision
> 13 +2 Detect,"Life",make into sense,Ranged
> 48 4D6 Killing Attack HTH,"Claws",vs physical defense,Reduced
> Penetration
Gods!! This thing is doing 7 1/2 dice killing!! With sword or
without. At the cost of 11 endurance a swing.
> 10 2 Levels,Melee Combat
> 24 12" Flight
> 80 8D6 Energy Blast,Damage Shield,0 END
>
> 3 Ambidexterity
> 3 Bump Of Direction
> 7 15- Combat Sense
> 5 Defense Maneuver
> 28 15- Universal Translator
>
> 6 AK: Moria 16-
>
> 80 4,000 100 pt. Followers (Orcs)
>
> 40 Package,"Whip",OAF,personal focus
> (25) 5D6 Entangle
> (15) 8D6 Energy Blast,beam attack,Linked,"Entangle"
>
> 50 Package,"Sword",OAF,unbreakable,personal focus
> (5) 2 Levels,related group
> (30) 4D6 Killing Attack HTH,vs physical defense
> (15) 8D6 Energy Blast,beam attack,Linked,"Killing Attack"
>
> Powers Cost: 664
> Total Cost: 944
>
> Base Points: 100
> 15 Berserk,"When thwarted",uncommon,occur 11-,recover 11-
> 25 Distinctive Features,"Balrog",not concealable,extreme
> 10 Watched,"By Sauron",more powerful,noncombat influence,
> harsh,appear 8-
> 15 Physical Limitation,"Cannot Leave Moria",infrequently,fully
> 15 Psychological Limitation,"Hatred of Life",common,strong
> 15 Psychological Limitation,"Supremely Confident",common,strong
> 20 Reputation,"Fire Demon",occur 14-,extreme reputation
> 729 Durin's Bane Bonus
>
> Disadvantages Total: 844
> Experience Spent: 0
> Total Points: 944
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> "Melkor built his strength, and slept not, but watched and laboured;
> and the evil things he had perverted walked abroad, and the dark
> and slumbering woods were haunted by monsters and shapes of
> dread. And in Utumno he gathered his demons about him, those
> spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendor, and
> became most like him in his corruption: their hearts were of fire,
> but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them;
> they had whips of flame. Balrogs the were named in Middle-Earth
> in later days."
> The Silmarillion, p. 47.
>
> The Balrog has many names. Demon of Might, Spirit of Fire, Durin's
> Bane, Valaraukar, the Terror. It is all of these and more. It is the last
> of the great fire demons that once served Melkor alongside Sauron,
> and rivals the Lord of the Rings in evil and power, if not in guile and
> wit. It is an enormous fire demon, wreathed in terror, fire and darkness,
> and bears a whip and sword, both surrounded in flame.
>
> The Balrog is a maia, like Gandalf or Sauron, but like Sauron, it has
> been seduced by the dark power of Melkor, and is now forever tied
> to its body of flame. It is ages older than the oldest elf, and more
> powerful than the greatest dragon, a relic of days when the Valar
> walked upon Arda.
>
> The Balrog fled from the fall of Thandorodrim and the downfall of Melkor
> at the end of the first age, and hid itself beneath the earth, where it slept
> for more than 5,400 years until the year Third Age 1931, when dwarves
> of Khazad-dum tunneled into its chamber and awakened it. It slew them
> all, including King Durin VI, and drove their remnants out. The dwarven
> kingdom has since become The Dark Realm, Moria, and infested with
> orcs.
>
> The Balrog ruled this kingdom for more than one thousand years until
> the coming of the Fellowship of the Ring in 3019. The Balrog confronted
> the Fellowship on the great Durin's Bridge. Gandalf struggled with the
> Balrog while the Fellowship escaped through the Eastern Gates. The
> struggle of the two maiar broke the bridge, and they tumbled down
> the great chasm into the bowels of Arda, where they fought throughout
> Moria, from the uttermost root of stone, up the Endless Stair to Durin's
> Tower on the highest peak of Mount Celebdil, and there they slew each
> other. The Balrog's body broke the mountainside when it landed.
>
> NOTES:
>
> The Balrog is unbelievably powerful, something not to be fought by mortal
> man. Gandalf is by his own admission the most dangerous thing in Middle
> Earth, other than Sauron. And the Balrog killed him. Luckily, death isn't
> a permanent state for a maia, at least not one on good terms with the Valar.
>
> In The Silmarillion, one elf-lord manages to take on a balrog, but he was one
> of the oldest and toughest beings in existence. And he died doing it.
>
> There was a lot I agonized over putting in (Knowledge skills - sure he's
> got 'em, but you, my friend, are never going to see him -use- them. He
> really isn't big on the idea of guests.)
>
> The Berserk disadvantage is not based on anything in the novels, just
> on my impression that a demon of fire and might would tend to be testy
> at being thwarted for the first time in 6,000 years.
>
> The Watched disadvantage is also a guess, but can you really imagine
> that Sauron is -not- going to watch the one creature that could successfully
> give him a run for his money in the Dark Lord of Middle-Earth business?
>
> The Physical Limitation is a lie. The Balrog -can- leave Moria, but he
> never, ever does.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> "I distrust all systematizers, and avoid them. The will to
> a system shows a lack of honesty."
> Nietzsche, Twilight of the Idols
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Scott C. Nolan
> nolan@erols.com
- --
Rick Holding
If only "common sense" was just a bit more common...
or if you prefer... You call this logic ?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:33:39 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Trigger Question
Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> At 07:40 AM 1/16/99 -0600, Guy Hoyle wrote:
> >When you use a power with Trigget, can this power be reused immediately, or
> >do you have to wait until the trigger is set off?
>
> Generally speaking, I'd opt for the latter if through a Focus without
> Charges, the former if not.
Having just read the writeup for trigger, it is unclear if you can use
the base power at any time. In fact, from what I have read, I would be
inclined to say that you can't. "This advantage allows the character to
set up a power that will go off when a given circumstance occurs." Now
if the given circumstance is making a sign or saying a word, then okay.
But if it is when midday, then you can't.
>
> >If it can be used before the trigger is set off, how do you keep people from
> >having hundreds of precast attacks ready to go off?
>
> Good point... perhaps the character doesn't recover the END or Charges
> from use until the Trigger is set off?
A simple solution could be to treat it the same as delayed effect. You
may only have as many triggered effects as Int/5. Or if you have
charges, then that is your limit. But one of the points of triggered is
that you have already paid the endurance cost. Perhaps also have a
limit that only one effect can be triggered in a phase to stop things
like piled up aids and the such. In fact I had a character like this
that had 4 aids set up such that they would go off one turn after each
other if he was down body.
- --
Rick Holding
If only "common sense" was just a bit more common...
or if you prefer... You call this logic ?
------------------------------
Date: 18 Jan 1999 00:51:59 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Trigger Question
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"RH" == Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> writes:
RH> Having just read the writeup for trigger, it is unclear if you can use
RH> the base power at any time. In fact, from what I have read, I would be
RH> inclined to say that you can't.
You cannot use a power without its advantages.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
------------------------------
Date: 18 Jan 1999 00:40:31 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Attn: Steve Long/Multiple Attacks in one Phase
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"RH" == Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> writes:
RH> if one player helps "focus" anothers abilities at certain times, thats
RH> what teams are for. But, as I said, if it would come into effect all
RH> the time, then the GM steps in and puts a stop to it.
And this is different from using or enforcing DC caps during play because...
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
------------------------------
Date: 18 Jan 1999 00:49:45 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Campaign guidelines/Damage caps
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"D" == Damon <Michael> writes:
D> Set any limits you want, and stick to them as firmly as you like. But
D> tell your players *ahead of time* what the limits are going to be.
Up until about a week ago I thought that if a GM says his campaign has a
12DC cap as one of its guidelines, his campaign has a 12DC cap as one of
its guidelines. You are now telling me that this is not the case at all.
*sigh*
I get bitched at for being a munchkin over my interpretation of the rules.
When it turns out I was right all along, I get bitched at because I am not
allowing characters the full use of their abilities.
I give up.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds.
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:47:30 -0800
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: superleap attacks
Rick Holding wrote:
>
> Ronald A. Miller wrote:
>
> > Next subject, please: Has anybody out there tried to simulate an
> > attack that is geared around jumping (Superleaping) at an
> > opponent, and bouncing OFF him causing (I'd say) Move By damage?
> > I would say that this would require some levels in Superleap to
> > perfect the 180 degree move off the target and maybe an Acrobatics
> > roll to enhance the attack's chances. I think, too, that a
> > separately bought Damage Resistance can be employed to minimize
> > the Hero's damage if the Acrobatics roll is successful.
> Comments?
>
> Don't buy it as a superleap attack. Instead buy it as a
> ranged physical energy blast with the SX as you leaping at the target
> and bouncing back. Gear it to the amount of damage you would
> normally do if
> you were leaping at the target and apply appropiate advantages and
> limitations. (There you go, Bob. Right terminology for ya.)
Problem with that version, is what if you want to bounce off and land
somewhere else. Maybe you want flight with the limitation that you
have to land between phases and enough turn-mod levels to do a quick
turn around.
Also, Damage resistance isn't going to do a bit of good. Extra PD
would be a lot better. (Unless you're attacking a Sea Urchin)
- -Mark Lemming
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 02:28:02 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Character: The Balrog (And you thought Aragorn was controversial!)
>> 48 4D6 Killing Attack HTH,"Claws",vs physical defense,Reduced
>> Penetration
>
> Gods!! This thing is doing 7 1/2 dice killing!! With sword or
>without. At the cost of 11 endurance a swing.
It is the Balrog. 'nuff said.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I distrust all systematizers, and avoid them. The will to
a system shows a lack of honesty."
Nietzsche, Twilight of the Idols
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scott C. Nolan
nolan@erols.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 02:30:00 -0500
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net>
Subject: Re: superleap attacks
At 10:47 PM 1/17/99 -0800, Mark Lemming wrote:
>Rick Holding wrote:
>>
>> Don't buy it as a superleap attack. Instead buy it as a
>> ranged physical energy blast with the SX as you leaping at the target
>> and bouncing back. Gear it to the amount of damage you would
>> normally do if
>> you were leaping at the target and apply appropiate advantages and
>> limitations. (There you go, Bob. Right terminology for ya.)
>
>Problem with that version, is what if you want to bounce off and land
>somewhere else. Maybe you want flight with the limitation that you
>have to land between phases and enough turn-mod levels to do a quick
>turn around.
You might be able to call landing somewhere else a special effect of making
a half move "before" you use your energy blast. I did something similar with
a speedster type character.
>
Oh! Its all hot and sticky.
Is this blood? Nice....
Lillith-Darkstalkers 3
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 16:33:34 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Attn: Steve Long/Multiple Attacks in one Phase
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>
>"D" == Damon <Michael> writes:
>
>D> Campaign guidelines and limits are a good thing; AP and DC restrictions
>D> are a good way to structure some of those limits. But they *don't*
>D> suddenly come into play in the middle of a game.
>
>No?
>
>I have 40 Strength and an Offensive Strike maneuver which means I can
>usually do a 12D6 strike as my most powerful attack. Another character
>hits me with an Aid that increases my Strength to 65. Are you as the GM
>going to let me throw around 17D6 punches in your 12DC campaign?
>
>If you say, "yes," what is the point of having a DC cap if you are not
>going to use it?
Because I want that general power level, but I'm not averse to exceeding it
on occasion for special purposes?
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 16:46:12 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Campaign guidelines/Damage caps
>Set any limits you want, and stick to them as firmly as you like. But tell
>your players *ahead of time* what the limits are going to be. Don't forbid
>them the full use of a set of abilities *you* approved at the start of the
>game, just because *you* didn't foresee a possible application of those
>abilities to get past a campaign limit or restriction *you* failed to
>mention in the first place.
I can't agree with this. There is such a thing as following the letter instead of the spirit of a rule, and I think spotting a loophole in what the GM set up and using it against him without finding out if he considered this was kosher is simple abuse of process, and ought to be smacked around. It's often one of the worst signs of a compulsive power gamer.
If the GM clearly wants to limit damages to the 12DC range, and sets things up to do that, but through an oversight misses a way around it you can regularly, what are you doing by utilizing that but making things hard on him and moving against his desires for the campaign? What excuse is there for that?
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 16:27:27 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Batman's CAK (and long DC continuity rant)
>
>>From: griffin@txdirect.net (Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin)
>
>>>It doesn't matter. The folks at DC are no
>>> longer bound by tired old concepts like
>>> continuity and consistency. Crisis on Infinite
>>> Earths wasn't bad enough. Even the
>>> nonsense brought about by Zero Hour didn't
>>> satisfy these guys.
>
>CRISIS was, in my opinion, a successful clean-up of a continuty that had
>gotten so miserably complex it was impossible to understand for new
>readers....but then editorial got involed and screwed things up,
>tweaking things here and there and leading to ZERO HOUR, a miserable,
>incomprehensible attempt to clean up the remaining mess that made my
>head (and many other readers' heads) hurt....
Crises also did s a fine job of demolishing the validity of an otherwise
decent book (Infinity Inc.) and stuck another one with constant patching and
repatching (The Legion of Super-Heroes). That made me rather less than
thrilled with it.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 16:37:54 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Attn: Steve Long/Multiple Attacks in one Phase
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>
>"WS" == Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com> writes:
>
>WS> Not a good enough answer for me. It's far too likely for two powers
>WS> bought seperately being forced to operate at the total DC limit being
>WS> not only less useful, but downright useless.
>
>I thought this was a no-brainer. If you feel that a particular combination
>of your powers is going to be ineffective, don't use that combination. It
>isn't like anyone is twisting your arm, forcing you to use your powers at
>ineffective levels. But just like everything else in Hero, if you have 60
>points to spend on powers you can get one big EB or RKA, or you can have
>one smaller EB and one smaller RKA, and maybe a small Flash as well. You
>trade depth for breadth.
And chanting that doesn't make it so. There's a reason why Linked attacks
get a Limitation, and in this situation I think that's as valid an issue for
damage caps as it is for total cost. Fact no one is forced to buy it is
no excuse for making an attack that is generally less effect cost as much as
one that's more, or in this case capping it the same.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 16:30:25 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Attn: Steve Long/Multiple Attacks in one Phase
>[tim ridicules my interpretation]
>
>I believe there are at least two schools of thought here:
>
>(a) the group of people for whom a Damage Class or Active Point cap is
> almost a facet of the universe: since you *can't* exceed the cap, your
> character would never intentionally do so. Activating both your 12d6 EB
> and your 6d6 Flash at maximum power yields 6d6 EB and 3d6 Flash, because
> 12 DC is like the speed of light (impossible to exceed).
>
> I don't agree with this stance. But I think I understand it.
>
>(b) the group of people for whom DC/AP caps are Character Design Guidelines.
> "No," the GM says, "you can't take +8d6 HA on your staff and +6 DC
> with martial arts, even though you don't have staff bought as a Martial
> Arts form. Later, you'll just pay the 1 point and have a 19d6 strike!"
>
> This viewpoint requires a *lot* more GM attention and rules knowledge.
>
>(c) any more? other than the "campaign caps? this is anime!" camp?
I sort of sit in between. I don't consider damage caps an absolute rule,
but I also don't appreciate people designing under it and then constantly
evading it in play. Of course, I use a Rule of X approach rather than a
simple DC cap, too.
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #144
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