Digest Archives Vol 1 Issue 157
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Sunday, January 24, 1999 2:55 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #157
champ-l-digest Sunday, January 24 1999 Volume 01 : Number 157
In this issue:
The Postman (was Re: Batman's CAK (and long DC continuity rant))
Multipower Questions
RE: Multipower Questions
RE: Character: Eomer
A painful question
Re: A painful question
RE: Character: Eomer
Re: A painful question
Re: A painful question
Re: A painful question
Re: A painful question
Re: A painful question
Re: Multipower Questions
RE: A painful question
Re: A painful question
Re: Multipower Questions
UNSUBSCRIBE
Re: Levels and Limitations
Re: A painful question
Re: A painful question
META: Saturday night list problems
Re: A painful question
Re: A painful question
Re: A painful question
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 05:17:02 -0600
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
Subject: The Postman (was Re: Batman's CAK (and long DC continuity rant))
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
|From: Steven J. Owens <puff@netcom.com>|&> wrote:
|> I think this is why I like playing superhero RPGs, plus perhaps
|>the mythic aspects. Brin has said in forewords, etc, that most of his
|>short work tends to be quite "mythic" in flavor (which is why The
|>Postman, which started life as three novellas, had that aspect to it -
|>the book was *much* better than the movie, I recommend it highly).
|
|
|Absolutely. Brin's "The Postman" was a _good_ book, mangled into a _bad_
|movie that only somewhat resembled the book. I recommend the book highly,
|myself.
|
|The only part I didn't like was when certain characters near the end of the
|book did _something_ (I won't explain, that would give too much away), that
|was inconsistent with basic mechanical physics. Since Brin is a physicist,
I
|found this disappointing. To be fair, though, it was the sort of thing an
|engineer would spot more readily than a physicist.
Not to turn this into a literary discussion, but I thought the dialogue in
the book was very stilted; it just didn't sound like anything real people
would say, it was just what the author thought the characters should say.
The rest of the book failed to enchant me, too; I thought it was a great
idea, but I wasn't too impressed by the execution. I read it before the
movie came out, and didn't even bother to see the movie.
Just my opinion; I'm not trying to talk anybody out of theirs.
Guy
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 15:14:22 EST
From: DVBaum@aol.com
Subject: Multipower Questions
I am in the process of redesigning one of my old characters and I need some
help on the multipowers.
Multipower #1 is basically just a bunch of gadgets with OAF and 4 charges for
each slot limitation. My question on that one is: Can I take the OAF(-1) and
4 charges(-1) limitation on the main multipower cost? I know that I can take
the OAF limitation, but I'm not sure about the 4 charges limitation
exp. 17 Multpower 50 pts., "Toy-Gadgets", OAF(-1), 4 charges each slot(-1)
Mutlipower #2 is written up like this:
27 Multipower 40 pts., "Punchline", OAF(-1), 0 end(+1/2)
3u Energy Blast 8d6, OAF(-1), 0 End cost(+1/2)
3u Telekinesis 20 STR, with fine manipulation, OAF(-1), 0 End(+1/2)
1u Swinging 20", OAF(-1), 0 End(+1/2)
My question about that one is did I write it up correctly?
Any help would be appreciated.
Derek B
Houston, TX
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 16:44:30 -0500
From: "Scott A. Colcord" <sacolcor@ic.net>
Subject: RE: Multipower Questions
> Multipower #1 is basically just a bunch of gadgets with OAF
> and 4 charges for each slot limitation. My question on that
> one is: Can I take the OAF(-1) and 4 charges(-1) limitation
> on the main multipower cost? I know that I can take the OAF
> limitation, but I'm not sure about the 4 charges limitation
>
> 17 Multipower 50 pts., "Toy-Gadgets", OAF(-1), 4 charges (-1)
This is certainly correct, but it does raise a question in my mind
for the list gurus: When you limit a multipower in this way, does
that mean that each slot in the multipower can be used four times,
or that the character can only use the multipower four times? If the
former, then how would you design it to work the other way?
> Multipower #2 is written up like this:
>
> 27 Multipower 40 pts., "Punchline", OAF(-1), 0 end(+1/2)
> 3u Energy Blast 8d6, OAF(-1), 0 End cost(+1/2)
> 3u Telekinesis 20 STR, with fine manipulation, OAF(-1), 0 End(+1/2)
> 1u Swinging 20", OAF(-1), 0 End(+1/2)
Not quite; you don't put advantages on the pool; you just buy it
large enough to accommodate the active points of the largest power inside.
Also, you always apply advantages /before/ limitations, not the other way
around (it ends up costing you four more points in this case):
30 Multipower 60 pts., "Punchline" OAF(-1)
3u Energy Blast 8d6 0 END(+1/2) OAF(-1)
3u Telekinesis 20 STR, fine manip 0 END(+1/2) OAF(-1)
2u Swinging 20" 0 END(+1/2) OAF(-1)
----Scott
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 16:45:20 -0500
From: "Scott A. Colcord" <sacolcor@ic.net>
Subject: RE: Character: Eomer
EOMER, THIRD MARSHALL OF THE RIDDERMARK
> 20 EGO 20
This seems a little high; I recall him being honorable, but
nothing that would indicate a maxed-out EGO.
> 3 Bump Of Direction
I don't remember anything that would indicate this; he
knew his way around, but that was just his AK.
> 5 Watched,"Grima Wormtongue",less powerful,noncombat
> influence,harsh,appear 8-
As a watched, Grima could probably be considered 'As Powerful',
or even 'More Powerful'; remember, for a watched, the power level
is indicative of the ability to watch, not the ability to fight,
and Grima had a lot of power in Rohan before being kicked out.
> 2) Eowyn is -not- a DNPC because as a "less powerful", "useful skills"
> she would be worth no points. Moreover, Eowyn can take care
> of herself!
<g> I've had 0-point disads before...but in this case, I probably
/would/ make her a DNPC, for a couple reasons:
1) Grima is in the palace, and is Eowyn's hunted (lusts for her)
This creates a regular potential for her to be endangered.
2) Eowyn had that famous DNPC desire to prove herself in life
In the end, she almost died because of it, and set Eomer off
charging into battle shouting 'Death!' (Perhaps he should get an
enraged?)
3) I don't know if I'd give her the 'useful skills' modifier;
she was certainly skilled, but I don't see her skills as being
of likely utility to Eomer. (Her skills would duplicate his
to a great degree, and her rank and title are less than his own).
I'd probably make her "Less Powerful, Occasionally", for 10 points.
----Scott
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 19:03:03 -0800
From: Scott Bennie <sbennie@dowco.com>
Subject: A painful question
Everyone has varying tastes in running a campaign, and we all have
strong opinions on what makes a campaign enjoyable and encourages the
feel of the genre, but we rarely get into an objective discussion of the
specifics.
The question I'm asking is, what are the advantages and disadvantages of
a low power campaign versus a high power campaign? What does a high
point campaign do that a low point campaign doesn't, and vice versa?
I've been thinking about writing an article on power levels, and I'd
appreciate opinions on the question.
Scott Bennie
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 22:12:01 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: Re: A painful question
At 07:03 PM 2/23/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Everyone has varying tastes in running a campaign, and we all have
>strong opinions on what makes a campaign enjoyable and encourages the
>feel of the genre, but we rarely get into an objective discussion of the
>specifics.
>
>The question I'm asking is, what are the advantages and disadvantages of
>a low power campaign versus a high power campaign? What does a high
>point campaign do that a low point campaign doesn't, and vice versa?
>
>I've been thinking about writing an article on power levels, and I'd
>appreciate opinions on the question.
>
I think a lot depends on the genre. Some are more amenable to a wide
range of power levels than others. Superheroes being a prime example
of the most flexible, fantasy somewhere in the middle and horror or pulp
at the other end.
I have always enjoyed low power levels because it makes the world,
and normals much more of a consequence. I like the idea that mankind
has a say in it's destiny.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"He has honor if he holds himself to an ideal
of conduct though it is inconvenient, unprofitable,
or dangerous to do so."
Walter Lippmann, A Preface to Morals
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scott C. Nolan
nolan@erols.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 22:16:12 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: RE: Character: Eomer
At 04:45 PM 1/23/99 -0500, Scott A. Colcord wrote:
>EOMER, THIRD MARSHALL OF THE RIDDERMARK
>
>> 20 EGO 20
>
>This seems a little high; I recall him being honorable, but
>nothing that would indicate a maxed-out EGO.
I based this on his steadfastness and wisdom. The number is
highly debatable.
>> 3 Bump Of Direction
>
>I don't remember anything that would indicate this; he
>knew his way around, but that was just his AK.
No evidence, I agree. It struck me as something Eomer
would have. He never seemed at even a moment's loss
for what to do next.
>> 5 Watched,"Grima Wormtongue",less powerful,noncombat
>> influence,harsh,appear 8-
>
>As a watched, Grima could probably be considered 'As Powerful',
>or even 'More Powerful'; remember, for a watched, the power level
>is indicative of the ability to watch, not the ability to fight,
>and Grima had a lot of power in Rohan before being kicked out.
Eomer had a lot of non-combat power, too. He was a Marshall. But
I can see giving Grima 'As Powerful' based on his control of Theoden.
I certainly don't think you'd be wrong to do it that way.
>> 2) Eowyn is -not- a DNPC because as a "less powerful", "useful skills"
>> she would be worth no points. Moreover, Eowyn can take care
>> of herself!
>
><g> I've had 0-point disads before...but in this case, I probably
>/would/ make her a DNPC, for a couple reasons:
>
>1) Grima is in the palace, and is Eowyn's hunted (lusts for her)
> This creates a regular potential for her to be endangered.
>
>2) Eowyn had that famous DNPC desire to prove herself in life
> In the end, she almost died because of it, and set Eomer off
> charging into battle shouting 'Death!' (Perhaps he should get an
> enraged?)
>
>3) I don't know if I'd give her the 'useful skills' modifier;
> she was certainly skilled, but I don't see her skills as being
> of likely utility to Eomer. (Her skills would duplicate his
> to a great degree, and her rank and title are less than his own).
>
>I'd probably make her "Less Powerful, Occasionally", for 10 points.
I just can't agree, but I also won't say you're wrong. Matter of taste,
I think.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"He has honor if he holds himself to an ideal
of conduct though it is inconvenient, unprofitable,
or dangerous to do so."
Walter Lippmann, A Preface to Morals
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scott C. Nolan
nolan@erols.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 00:25:56 -0500 (EST)
From: arcus@webtv.net (chrisopher spoor)
Subject: Re: A painful question
this is hard to figure out. To me the differences are just what the
charecters can do. Its more universal vs personal importance. Low levels
can save the person / city / maybe country but have a really hard time
saving reality unless the GM arranges it. But thats more sub-genre then
an advantage. My games are based on the Avenger / JLA idea of different
level, godlings and one trick ponies. working together. The disadvantage
of charecter development is a question of how often the GM allows them
to interact with reoccuring NPCs. It's hard to bring up backgrounds if
the charecters are planet / dimension jumping, but not impossible
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 01:12:45 -0800
From: Jay P Hailey <jayphailey@juno.com>
Subject: Re: A painful question
>Everyone has varying tastes in running a campaign, and we all have
>strong opinions on what makes a campaign enjoyable and encourages the
>feel of the genre, but we rarely get into an objective discussion of
>the specifics.
>
>The question I'm asking is, what are the advantages and disadvantages
>of a low power campaign versus a high power campaign? What does a high
>point campaign do that a low point campaign doesn't, and vice versa?
>
>I've been thinking about writing an article on power levels, and I'd
>appreciate opinions on the question.
>
>Scott Bennie
Both can be fun. It depends on the players, and the prevailing mood. I
suspect that the issue for me revolves around the possibility of failure
and even death for the PCs. While a high power game is about an
expression of imaginary power. Super high powered characters never have
to worry about paying the rent, or fixing the car, or what's for dinner
tonight. They rise above the mudane stresses of the world and fly away
from it all.
Lower powered characters enable the PCs to feel a greater sense of
accomplishement by solving problems.
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 22:30:47 -0500 (EST)
From: tdj723@webtv.net (thomas deja)
Subject: Re: A painful question
>From: sbennie@dowco.com (Scott Bennie)
>>The question I'm asking is, what are the
>> advantages and disadvantages of a low
>> power campaign versus a high power
>> campaign?
I think the problem with high powered campaigns is that they run the
risk of becoming just ability-fests--who has the coolest powers, the
most durable defenses, etc. Lower powered campaigns, because there's
less to go around, tend to generate characters with more personalities
and skills--they become more flexible because an effective energy blast
becomes a major purchase....
"A trial without witnesses is like the Euro, a monetary system without
the benefits of paper money or coin--what's the fun of that?"
- --Harry Shearer
____________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 20:07:19 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: A painful question
- ---Scott Bennie <sbennie@dowco.com> wrote:
>
> Everyone has varying tastes in running a campaign, and we all have
> strong opinions on what makes a campaign enjoyable and encourages the
> feel of the genre, but we rarely get into an objective discussion of
the
> specifics.
>
> The question I'm asking is, what are the advantages and
disadvantages of
> a low power campaign versus a high power campaign? What does a high
> point campaign do that a low point campaign doesn't, and vice versa?
>
> I've been thinking about writing an article on power levels, and I'd
> appreciate opinions on the question.
Hmmm.. I'm definately the wrong person to be responding to this as
most of my campaigns tend to fall right in the "mid-level" range but...
High Level: Allows for more "grand scale" adventures. One of the
funnest campaigns that I never finished was when I converted the
Marvel Super Heroes ME trilogy (Cosmos Cubed, Ragnarok and Roll, & The
Left Hand of Eternity) to Champions. The characters had been built on
a higher point base than I would typically use, but the adventures
would have deadly without the power boost (as is the heroes got the
butts handed to them several times). High power levels also seem to
encourage what I call "stupidly heroic actions", since the palyers
generally assume that their characters can survive doing an dumb stunt
once.
Low Level: Tends to encourage the PCs the think more as the players
have a much stronger concept of their chracater's mortality. In a 50
or 75 point base game normal guns are more than a mere nuisance.
==
=======================================
John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org>
Keeper of the Champions / Hero System mailing
list. http://www.sysabend.org/champions
=======================================
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 22:54:35 EST
From: "Virgil Buttram" <dasbutz@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: A painful question
>Everyone has varying tastes in running a campaign, and we all have
>strong opinions on what makes a campaign enjoyable and encourages the
>feel of the genre, but we rarely get into an objective discussion of
the
>specifics.
>
>The question I'm asking is, what are the advantages and disadvantages
of
>a low power campaign versus a high power campaign? What does a high
>point campaign do that a low point campaign doesn't, and vice versa?
>
>I've been thinking about writing an article on power levels, and I'd
>appreciate opinions on the question.
>
>Scott Bennie
>
My personal perspective is that high point total campaigns allow for
more detailed characters, as well as avoiding what I call "rookie
syndrome", i.e. characters with little to no experience prior to the
beginning of the campaign. If the campaign is specifically a "rookie"
campaign, then that's fine, but otherwise, I prefer more points. (I have
run a campaign on as little as 70 points, but that was a special
campaign of "playing through the origin", i.e. role-playing the origin
of the characters' powers.) Also, some characters from original source
material could not be implemented accurately in low-point campaigns
without sacrificing detail.
The power level of a campaign can be limited by other means (limits on
DC of attacks, defenses, active points of powers, DEX/SPD, CV, etc.).
The only advantages I can see for a "general" campaign to be low point
is for new players, so as to not overwhelm them with "How do I spend all
these points". Low points can also ease the GM's burden, especially in a
large campaign (many players/PCs) or for an less-experienced GM. A more
experienced GM can make a low point camaign quite enjoyable, but this
requires flexibility in using the rules so that characters are still
detailed in their ablilities.
Other perspectives will vary; I will warn that an expressed perspective
using the term "munchkin" in a derogatory manner will discredit itself
severely in my estimation.
My 2 points worth....
Randy Buttram
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 20:19:01 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Multipower Questions
- ---DVBaum@aol.com wrote:
>
> I am in the process of redesigning one of my old characters and I
need some
> help on the multipowers.
>
> Multipower #1 is basically just a bunch of gadgets with OAF and 4
charges for
> each slot limitation. My question on that one is: Can I take the
OAF(-1) and
> 4 charges(-1) limitation on the main multipower cost? I know that I
can take
> the OAF limitation, but I'm not sure about the 4 charges limitation
>
> exp. 17 Multpower 50 pts., "Toy-Gadgets", OAF(-1), 4 charges each
slot(-1)
I'll let the rules lawyers handle the applying the charges limitation
to the MP as it's always been a little fuzzy in my mind, but here's my
take on it: The rules say that if a limitation applies to every slot
in the MP then the limitation can be applied to the MP - but to my
mind the charges limitation on each slot is NOT the same limitation as
you are implying that you have 4 uses of each slot, not 4 uses of the
MP. So I would say no, you don't apply the charges limitation to the
MP (unless you only want to be able to use the MP 4 times).
> Mutlipower #2 is written up like this:
>
> 27 Multipower 40 pts., "Punchline", OAF(-1), 0 end(+1/2)
> 3u Energy Blast 8d6, OAF(-1), 0 End cost(+1/2)
> 3u Telekinesis 20 STR, with fine manipulation, OAF(-1), 0 End(+1/2)
> 1u Swinging 20", OAF(-1), 0 End(+1/2)
>
> My question about that one is did I write it up correctly?
Kill the "0 End" advantage on the MP itself - MP's don't cost END.
What you have is a 60 point MP (8d6 Energy Blast 0 END is a 60 active
point power, 20 STR TK w/ Fine Manip 0 END is a 60 actibe point power,
and 20" Swinging 0 END is a 30 active point power - I would probably
indulge in just a little bit of min-maxing here and buy more swinging).
My question for you though, since both MPs seem to be "gadgets", is
why have 2 Multipowers instead of just one 100 (or so) active point MP
with lots of 60 or less active point powers in normal multi-slots -
this increases your versitility without signifigantly increasing your
total cost.
==
=======================================
John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org>
Keeper of the Champions / Hero System mailing
list. http://www.sysabend.org/champions
=======================================
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 01:37:31 -0500
From: "Scott A. Colcord" <sacolcor@ic.net>
Subject: RE: A painful question
> The question I'm asking is, what are the advantages and disadvantages of a
> low power campaign versus a high power campaign? What does a high point
> campaign do that a low point campaign doesn't, and vice versa?
In my experience, a high powered game (375+ points) game can be fun because
it
lets you RP things on a scale that a low power game can't match; the
characters can influence and shape events at a global, or even galactic
level. I had the pleasure of playing in one 375-point space opera game,
where
our characters included:
The Best Shot in the Galaxy (literally).
A man who was so wealthy that he bought and sold whole solar systems.
A galactic scale teleporter.
A galactic scale psionic.
...and a couple others. Together, we had to stop a rogue alien from an
ultra-
high tech race, an invasion by an alien empire, and the return of a near-
omnipotent entity trapped in the galactic core. In a standard 250-point
game,
the heroes can sometimes be responsible for saving the world (by calling in
the big guns at the right moment, uncovering a hidden plot, using the big
villain's disads against him, or using other 'plot devices' that the GM has
created to allow them to defeat a megavillain who is much more powerful than
they are. In higher power games, they players /are/ the big guns, and can
slug it out with the master villains without needing the GM to add these
twists. Two things that I think are important for such a game are:
1) An experienced GM and player group. To play at this level you need to
know the rules well, so that you can focus on the more important aspects
of the game (the role playing).
2) A clear campaign concept. At this level, the GM needs to have a plan
for how the world is proceeding. PCs of this power shouldn't just be
wandering around looking for the adventure of the week; they should be
epic heroes set on epic tasks.
Turning to low powered games, I've also played in a 50 point game, where the
characters were simple villagers who were thrust into a situation they were
unprepared for. This type of game can be fun because it lends itself much
more easily to good roleplay, because the characters themselves are much
simpler. There's much more time for inter-character interactions, because
you're not busy saving the world. Character growth is also much more
apparent, since adding 10 XP to a 50 point character is really noticeable.
I hope this helps,
----Scott
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 03:20:42 -0800
From: Jay P Hailey <jayphailey@juno.com>
Subject: Re: A painful question
>I have always enjoyed low power levels because it makes the world,
>and normals much more of a consequence. I like the idea that mankind
>has a say in it's destiny.
>
>Scott C. Nolan
The above is the reason I prefer to run a more low powered campaign (A
Heroic, rather than super-heroic game). Some also made the point about
guns being more than a mere nuicance.
Although our Omega Squad super heroes game has varied in powerlevel from
time to time, and even the high powered end is fun to play, in the right
mood.
Mickey Spillane said "Whenever I get stuck in a plot I have two guys come
through the door with guns." In a heroic level game this can be an
effective tactic.
Although in Fantasy Hero, it will get you looked at funny.
Jay P. Hailey <Meow!>
Famous Last Words: "Trust me, I know what I'm doing."
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Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 06:52:10 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Multipower Questions
At 03:14 PM 1/23/99 EST, DVBaum@aol.com wrote:
>I am in the process of redesigning one of my old characters and I need some
>help on the multipowers.
>
>Multipower #1 is basically just a bunch of gadgets with OAF and 4 charges for
>each slot limitation. My question on that one is: Can I take the OAF(-1) and
>4 charges(-1) limitation on the main multipower cost? I know that I can take
>the OAF limitation, but I'm not sure about the 4 charges limitation
>
>exp. 17 Multpower 50 pts., "Toy-Gadgets", OAF(-1), 4 charges each slot(-1)
The problem with this would be that, strictly speaking, you could only
use the entire Multipower four times. To do what you describe, I'd take
the 4 charges only on the separate slots, though I'd OK the overall OAF
limitation.
>Mutlipower #2 is written up like this:
>
>27 Multipower 40 pts., "Punchline", OAF(-1), 0 end(+1/2)
>3u Energy Blast 8d6, OAF(-1), 0 End cost(+1/2)
>3u Telekinesis 20 STR, with fine manipulation, OAF(-1), 0 End(+1/2)
>1u Swinging 20", OAF(-1), 0 End(+1/2)
>
>My question about that one is did I write it up correctly?
It looks fine to me. :-]
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 11:22:49 -0500 (EST)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@njcu.edu>
Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE
UNSUBSCRIBE
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Date: 24 Jan 1999 11:57:47 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Levels and Limitations
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"E" == ErolB1 <ErolB1@aol.com> writes:
E> As GM, I allow Limiations on 2- and 3-point levels as long as at least
E> five points worth of levels are packaged together. For example, if a
E> player buys a blaster rifle with two 3-point levels, I'll allow a Focus
E> Limitation applied to the 6 points.
A neat idea... but I think needlessly complex and prone to abuse, which is
why the restriction to 5-point and higher cost skill levels.
E> I've also slightly redefined the different levels of Levels to work out
E> what I see as a kink in the progression and to eliminate the concept of
E> the 'tight group.' IMHO the 'tight group' requires too many judgment
E> calls and is too vulnerable to abuse.
I see it the other way around, if the GM is properly doing his job. My
rule of thumb is, if it can go into an Elemental Control, it qualifies as a
tight group; otherwise not. Simple and consistent.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ returned to its special container and
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ kept under refrigeration.
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Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 08:56:59 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: A painful question
>Everyone has varying tastes in running a campaign, and we all have
>strong opinions on what makes a campaign enjoyable and encourages the
>feel of the genre, but we rarely get into an objective discussion of the
>specifics.
>
>The question I'm asking is, what are the advantages and disadvantages of
>a low power campaign versus a high power campaign? What does a high
>point campaign do that a low point campaign doesn't, and vice versa?
Low level campaign
Benefits: Encourages players to think more creatively by limiting raw
points to spend, tends to have more skills than powers, tends to encourage
players to examine more creative solutions, makes it possible for more
mundane threats to be challenging, mysteries are truly mysterious.
Detriments: Often skills are skipped entirely by players who have to
decide between conception and flavor, many conceptions are just not
possible at all with this few points, many possible threats are beyond the
character's ability to face, thus limiting broadness of scenarios, the
players will be less likely to feel special if they are not noticably
different than the populace
High Level Campaign
Benefits: Broader conceptions available, able to build the characters you
always wanted to but couldn't afford, more spectacular, earth shattering
galactic level adventures and threats are possible, players cannot help but
feel their characters are impressive and special, With the extra points,
more flavor and skills are bought for the characters (hey, I CAN afford to
buy that Change Environment that makes sense now).
Detriments: Characters can tend to be built on raw points rather than
conception, depending on disad levels the disadvantages will often be
forced, contrived, and just to get the points worth, power pools are often
chosen which slow the game and frustrate GM attempts to challenge the
players, players tend to choose power-based rather than creative solutions,
fewer opportunities for mysterious type adventures.
This is just off the top of my head from personal experience, your milage,
as another poster says, may vary.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 09:23:23 -0800 (PST)
From: Ell Egyptoid <egyptoid@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: A painful question
> The question I'm asking is, what are the advantages and
> disadvantages of a low power campaign versus a high power
> campaign? What does a high point campaign do that a low
> point campaign doesn't, and vice versa?
No difference at all, provided the players aren't power-gamers
or munchkins...
==
=========================== Elliott aka The Egyptoid ==
=== JLA: Justice League Alabama === Central HQ ===========
=== http://www.sysabend.org/champions/elliott/index.html =
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 09:15:45 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Subject: META: Saturday night list problems
Before anyone asks, "Yes, the mail server was having problems last
night."
If you tried to post a message to the list last night you may have
gotten a message with a subject like "Warning: could not send message
for past 4 hours". Ignore it, you messages did get posted, they just
bounced around in the sysabend.org message queue for a few hours first.
==
=======================================
John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org>
Keeper of the Champions / Hero System mailing
list. http://www.sysabend.org/champions
=======================================
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 12:12:45 EST
From: ErolB1@aol.com
Subject: Re: A painful question
In a message dated 99-01-23 22:06:39 EST, sbennie@dowco.com writes:
> The question I'm asking is, what are the advantages and disadvantages of
> a low power campaign versus a high power campaign? What does a high
> point campaign do that a low point campaign doesn't, and vice versa?
Personally, I don't like low-powered campaigns at all. I'll cheerfully play
heroic games with the characters built on 75+75 pts if the setup is
approprate, but I won't go lower than that. I can be plenty stupid and
incompetent and ineffective in real life; I don't need more of this in
something I do for fun.
Lower-point characters also tend to be sketchy in terms of details. I've
noticed that people tend to give mucho points to fictional characters - the
recent Middle Earth characters are examples of this. Sam Bell's earlier
posting of superheroes also exemplify this. Also the example given some time
back of the 200 pt package for a "generic real-world cop." There's a lesson in
here somewhere, even if I'm not sure what it is...
OTOH, very high point totals are harder to play and harder to GM. It's harder
to keep track of things, and misjudgments can be more dangerous. For the GM,
there may also be a problem with making the gameworld 'big enough' so as to
keep things interesting for the players. My friends and I once worked out a
scale to measure the "scope" of a supers game:
1. Dark - Characters and adventures are generally limited to the 'bad parts'
of a campaign city.
2. Civic - Characters and adventures are generally limited to a single
campaign city.
3. National - Campaign adventures can occur all over the country, and
sometimes overseas as well. A campaign that ranges over multiple countries but
that otherwise fits into this class may be termed "Trans-National or
"Continental"
4. Global - Similar to a wide-ranging National campaign, but in addition
characters are able to adventure in the oceans and/or in orbit.
5. Interplanetary/Interstellar - Adventures regularly occur in space or on
different planets. Purely "Interplanetary" campaigns without the ability to
reach other star systems are rare.
6. Transdimensional - Adventures regularly occur in various alien dimensions
or across time. The scope within any single dimension is usually limited to
Civic, National, or at most Global.
One thing that a high-power campaign does *not* do is "discourage
roleplaying." A low power game does allow a GM to dominate the players and
keep them under strict discipline. It also encourages the player-characters to
whine and grovel a lot. But it is a mistake to confuse these things with "good
roleplaying."
The important thing is for the GM to set up benchmarks for the gameworld, to
have a clear idea of the sort of things he wants the player-characters to do,
and *to communicate these things to the players.* A GM really ought to create
some sample characters, vet them to ensure that they perform as desired, and
use the results to set the point levels and guidelines for the campaign[1].
It's also a good idea for the GM to make those sample characters available to
the players as examples of "the sort of characters I want" and for the GM to
write up suitable packages for stereotypical professions in the game world.
(In a modern-day supers game, these might be such things as a "Lawyer
package", an "MD package", a "policeman package", etc.)
Another useful exercise might be to "write yourself up in HERO terms." I
haven't seen much of this, but "write yourself up in GURPS terms" is a common
exercise that gives an interesting result: There are a lot of players who
write themselves up as under 25 pts - and another lot of players to write
themselves as 100+ point characters. There are big differences as to how GURPS
points map onto the real world, and I expect this to be even more true with
HERO.
[1] Unless you're the sort of GM who hates "Pro from Dover"-type players and
wants to piss on them, it's important that the sample characters not represent
absolute limits. Instead of the NPC Dr. Tachyon being "the fastest man in the
campaign", it should be "Dr. Tachyon is in the top rank of speedsters. He may
or may not be the fastest, but anyone faster will not be faster by very much."
Erol K. Bayburt
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 14:11:55 -0500 (EST)
From: tdj723@webtv.net (thomas deja)
Subject: Re: A painful question
>From: egyptoid@yahoo.com (Ell Egyptoid)
>>No difference at all, provided the players
>> aren't power-gamers or munchkins...
To an extent you're right--with the right players and GM, and as long as
everyone is in synch as to what they want to get out of play, it doesn't
matter what the point totals are. I've played in a 1,000 point game
which was a Hell of a lot of fun because the GM and the playrs wanted a
game with lots of mayhem....
On the other hand, I've played in an unsucessful horror based campaign
with gthe players based on100/100, which didn't work because the GM's
ideas about the game and the players' ideas did not mesh--and because
neither conveyed their expectations clearly enough, the game sputtered
out after two sessions.....
"A trial without witnesses is like the Euro, a monetary system without
the benefits of paper money or coin--what's the fun of that?"
- --Harry Shearer
____________________________________
THE ULTIMATE HULK, containing the new story, "A Quiet, Normal Life," is
available now from Byron Preiss and Berkley
_______________________________
An except from the new story "Too Needy" can now be found at MAKE UP
YOUR OWN DAMN TITLE
www.freeyellow.com/members/tdj
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 14:28:44 -0500 (EST)
From: tdj723@webtv.net (thomas deja)
Subject: Re: A painful question
>From: ErolB1@aol.com
>>I'll cheerfully play heroic games with the
>> characters built on 75+75 pts if the setup is
>> approprate, but I won't go lower than that. I
>> can be plenty stupid and incompetent and
>> ineffective in real life; I don't need more of
>> this in something I do for fun.
The lowest I ever got in a low powered campaign was 1000+65....and the
characters I got back were highly competenat adventurers (this was a
Pulp campaign) who were easily the best in their fields....and it was
one of the best tabletop games I ever participated in.
>>Lower-point characters also tend to be
>> sketchy in terms of details.
I don't agree--I do think that lower point totals tend to 'focus' a
player, thus making the instances of 'gimmes' (i,e, powers that don't
really fit into conception, but it looked really cool and the player had
the points for it) rare to non-existant. Thus, the player thinks about
what he really wants, resulting in a more well-defined, more 'vital '
character....
>>OTOH, very high point totals are harder to
>> play and harder to GM. It's harder to keep
>> track of things, and misjudgments can be
>> more dangerous. For the GM, there may
>> also be a problem with making the
>> gameworld 'big enough' so as to keep things
>> interesting for the players.
....the temptation for abuse of the system is greater, as well--when you
have tons of points the temptation to create just power generators is
greater, and you can throw in pretty much anything.
>>One thing that a high-power campaign does
>> *not* do is "discourage roleplaying." A low
>> power game does allow a GM to dominate
>> the players and keep them under strict
>> discipline. It also encourages the
>> player-characters to whine and grovel a lot.
Actually, I have found it a)encourages them to get in character more
because they've actualy had to think pretty extensively about what their
character is like, and make decisions about what he or she is not, and
b) encourages them to think about situations they're in, instead of
blasting their way out....and when they think their way out and succeed,
it's all the more satisfying for them.
>>The important thing is for the GM to set up
>> benchmarks for the gameworld, to have a
>> clear idea of the sort of things he wants the
>> player-characters to do, and *to
>> communicate these things to the players.*
On this we agree on--as long as player and GM are on the same page, and
are enthusiastic, the point totals are moot. This is advice especially
important to beginning GMs. whose first impulses are to just throw
anything that would please their characters into their gameworld--making
for a mish mash of original concepts, stuff cobbled from comics, anime
stuff, SF stuff, and a who knows what else that makes little sense.....
"A trial without witnesses is like the Euro, a monetary system without
the benefits of paper money or coin--what's the fun of that?"
- --Harry Shearer
____________________________________
THE ULTIMATE HULK, containing the new story, "A Quiet, Normal Life," is
available now from Byron Preiss and Berkley
_______________________________
An except from the new story "Too Needy" can now be found at MAKE UP
YOUR OWN DAMN TITLE
www.freeyellow.com/members/tdj
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #157
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