Digest Archives Vol 1 Issue 159
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 2:24 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #159
champ-l-digest Monday, January 25 1999 Volume 01 : Number 159
In this issue:
Re: Levels and Limitations
Re: Levels and Limitations
Re: A painful question
Re: A painful question
Re: A painful question
Re: Levels and Limitations
Re: How much damage should guns do.
Re: A painful question
Re: How much damage should guns do.
Re: Levels and Limitations
Re: How much damage should guns do.
Re: Multipower Questions
Re: Levels and Limitations
Re: A painful question
Re: A painful question
Re: How much damage should guns do.
Re: Multipower Questions - Reply
Re: How much damage should guns do.
the painful question
RE: How much damage should guns do.
Re: A painful question
Limitations on Multipowers
Re: Levels and Limitations - Reply
Re: How much damage should guns do.
Re: Limitations on Multipowers
Re: the painful question
Re: Limitations on Multipowers
Re: How much damage should guns do.
Re: A painful question
RE: Limitations on Multipowers
OT:Odd Quotes
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 08:07:50 EST
From: ErolB1@aol.com
Subject: Re: Levels and Limitations
In a message dated 99-01-24 12:12:30 EST, ratinox@peorth.gweep.net writes:
> "E" == ErolB1 <ErolB1@aol.com> writes:
>
> E> As GM, I allow Limiations on 2- and 3-point levels as long as at least
> E> five points worth of levels are packaged together. For example, if a
> E> player buys a blaster rifle with two 3-point levels, I'll allow a Focus
> E> Limitation applied to the 6 points.
>
> A neat idea... but I think needlessly complex and prone to abuse, which is
> why the restriction to 5-point and higher cost skill levels.
??? I don't understand this. Can you give an example of abuse with a bundle of
2 or 3 pt levels?
As for complexity: If a character buys a number of identical 5+ pt levels and
applies Limitations, do you apply the limitation to *each* level seperately,
or to *all* the levels as a group? IOW, do you count the each level as a
seperate "power" or do you count the set of levels as a single "power"?
For example, if a character buys three 5-pt levels "+1 DCV, all combat" and
applies a -1/2 Lim ("only in shadow", say) then does this cost 3 * (5/1.5,
rounded) = 9 pts or (3*5)/1.5 = 10 points? I use the later, so there's no
added complexity in applying it to 2 and 3 pt levels as well.
>
> E> I've also slightly redefined the different levels of Levels to work out
> E> what I see as a kink in the progression and to eliminate the concept of
> E> the 'tight group.' IMHO the 'tight group' requires too many judgment
> E> calls and is too vulnerable to abuse.
>
> I see it the other way around, if the GM is properly doing his job. My
> rule of thumb is, if it can go into an Elemental Control, it qualifies as a
> tight group; otherwise not. Simple and consistent.
Then I'm consistent too :-) When I GM, I don't allow Elemental Controls at
all.
Erol K. Bayburt
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:45:39 EST
From: ErolB1@aol.com
Subject: Re: Levels and Limitations
In a message dated 99-01-24 18:25:41 EST, gilberg@ou.edu writes:
> > As GM, I allow Limiations on 2- and 3-point levels as long as at least
> five
> > points worth of levels are packaged together. For example, if a player
> buys a
> > blaster rifle with two 3-point levels, I'll allow a Focus Limitation
> applied
> > to the 6 points.
>
> This would be fine except for the fact that the limitation is not
> at all limiting. Those levels are already only with the blaster rifle,
> taking a focus lim that says they work only with the blaster rifle is just
> free points.
But being useable with only the blaster rifle is more limiting than being
useable only with, say, eyebeam blasts. The blaster rifle can't be used as
often: It can be taken away, while the eyebeam blasts can't.
Erol K. Bayburt
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:45:40 EST
From: ErolB1@aol.com
Subject: Re: A painful question
In a message dated 99-01-24 19:25:10 EST, susano@dedaana.otd.com writes:
> On Sun, 24 Jan 1999, Jay P Hailey wrote:
>
> > Actually I use 100 + 50. 100 base points and 50 points of disads. I
> > don't want my players taking disads they have no intention of playing.
> > Also I came to HSR from GURPS and I brought a lot of baggage with me.
>
> In my games we have debated the 150+100 Super, thus removing part of the
> unneeded disad problem. It did work as excesses hunted and the like were
> dropped, providing for a tighter concept.
Milage varies on this. Personally I like this: I have a relatively hard time
coming up with 150 points of disads, and often the last 50 pts or so are
'stretchers.' But I have friends who find it easy to come up with the full 150
pts of disads and more.
Erol K. Bayburt
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 06:25:53 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: A painful question
At 09:23 AM 1/24/99 -0800, Ell Egyptoid wrote:
>> The question I'm asking is, what are the advantages and
>> disadvantages of a low power campaign versus a high power
>> campaign? What does a high point campaign do that a low
>> point campaign doesn't, and vice versa?
>
>No difference at all, provided the players aren't power-gamers
>or munchkins...
My general perception is, use the power level appropriate to the type of
story you're trying to tell -- both the theme, and the means of expressing
it. Some stories are best for agents, some for superheroes, some for
godlike beings, and some for a mixture.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:04:16 -0600 (CST)
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Subject: Re: A painful question
>
> In a message dated 99-01-23 22:06:39 EST, sbennie@dowco.com writes:
>
> > The question I'm asking is, what are the advantages and disadvantages of
> > a low power campaign versus a high power campaign? What does a high
> > point campaign do that a low point campaign doesn't, and vice versa?
>
I've read through about half of the responses now. Probably the very next
post will raise the same point but let me ask this anyway:
Does a 'low power game' necessarily equate to a 'low POINT game' ?
(I'll grant that 'high power' probably has to equate to 'high POINTs".)
Curt
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 06:44:24 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Levels and Limitations
At 11:20 PM 1/24/99 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: Tim Gilberg <gilberg@ou.edu>
>cc: hero-l@sysabend.org
>Subject: Re: Levels and Limitations
>
>> As GM, I allow Limiations on 2- and 3-point levels as long as at least five
>> points worth of levels are packaged together. For example, if a player
buys a
>> blaster rifle with two 3-point levels, I'll allow a Focus Limitation
applied
>> to the 6 points.
>
> This would be fine except for the fact that the limitation is not
>at all limiting. Those levels are already only with the blaster rifle,
>taking a focus lim that says they work only with the blaster rifle is just
>free points.
If the weapon is taken away and used by someone else, the Level(s)
bought through the Focus would go with it. Otherwise the owning character
keeps it.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 07:23:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Ell Egyptoid <egyptoid@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: How much damage should guns do.
Gun Damage? glad you asked...
=================================
Billy Joe Agent 2d6 Killing
Agent Squad Leader 3d6 Killing
Supreme Agent 4d6 Killing
Then take the above levels and season to taste with
autofire, armor-pierce, area-effect, or long-range.
IMC, HYDRA is fond of autofire, GENOCIDE likes
Armor-Piercing. PSI agents tend to have long-range
modifiers, and other low budget Agencies have either
Area-Effect or no advantages at all. Typical Agent Gun
is 2d6 Killing vs. PD, OAF, Zero End, Personal Focus.
This means if you pick up an Agent Gun, it immediately
runs out of ammo, but it never seems to run out of ammo
in the agent's hands.
Oh wait a minute. My bad. You wanted to talk about calibers,
ballistics, and metallurgy and gunsmithing? Realism in Ammo?
No thanks. I'll stick to my Hero System.
==
=========================== Elliott aka The Egyptoid ==
=== JLA: Justice League Alabama === Central HQ ===========
=== http://www.sysabend.org/champions/elliott/index.html =
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:45:42 EST
From: ErolB1@aol.com
Subject: Re: A painful question
In a message dated 99-01-24 21:31:24 EST, gilberg@ou.edu writes:
> We were scared shitless the entire game. We knew nothing about
> what was going on, and were jerked around a bit like pawns by the various
> power players--it turned out our commander, who was a PC, was a Manchurian
> Canditate-type. We had a blast uncovering the big plans of Vampire
> domination, and were able to put an (at least) temporary stop to them by
> blowing up a skyscraper (don't ask). (Well, you can ask, but that's
> another story.) We had to be incredibly inventive and creative to get
> through this campaign, and 2 of the 4 characters ended up dying.
>
> Like I said, I loved it. This is what being low-powered is about.
And my reaction is: This is fun?
I see it as being inherently masochistic. I know *intellectually* that some
people get great enjoyment out of this, just as I know *intellectually* that
some people get great pleasure out of being tied to a post and flogged. But
*emotionally* I Just Don't Get It.
The best thing for all involved is for me to steer clear of such games. But
I'm touchy about any suggestion that these games are somehow "superior"
instead of just being a specialized aquired taste, and that my own preferences
for higher powered and 'brighter' games are immature, 'munckin' and inferior.
Erol K. Bayburt
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:46:59 -0500
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: How much damage should guns do.
At 07:01 AM 1/25/99 -0600, Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin wrote:
>At 12:46 PM 1/25/1999, qts wrote:
>>While I'm not familiar with the specific weapons you cite, I disagree.
>>The advantage of the rifle is that it is far more accurate at range.
>
>This has always been my impression as well. I understood that a 9mm bullet
>would do the same damage whether fired from a pistol or a rifle, and that
>the rifle's only advantage was added range.
>
>So, Max, I think you want to compare the two types of ammunition, not the
>two types of weapon. (I'm not sure that has any effect on your question,
>though, it may be purely semantic.)
>
That's correct. In fact, there are rifles that can fire pistol ammo
and pistols that can fire rifle ammo. The damage is done by the ammo
itself.
When figuring the damage for the ammo, you're essentially looking at
one thing: Momentum. Mass times Velocity. The mass is determined
by your caliber (more or less), and the velocity is determined by the
amount of powder (and a few assorted minor modifiers such as burn rate,
barrel length, and powder mix).
A rifle *is* more accurate at range, due to barrel length, spin, and
the momentum of the ammo.
As for the comparative damage done by either one, a 2:1 ratio might
be a little conservative. Estimate 3 to 4 times the damage from an
average rifle shot as compared to a bullet. (I think somebody in the
thread was guessing an "order of magnitude" more, but I think that's
a bit much.)
On the other hand, in game terms, does it really matter? Just pick
the damage you want to inflict, and say that's what your gun does.
("Sure, it's a Derringer ... But it's a *really good* Derringer!")
------------------------------
Date: 25 Jan 1999 11:06:08 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Levels and Limitations
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"E" == ErolB1 <ErolB1@aol.com> writes:
E> ??? I don't understand this. Can you give an example of abuse with a
E> bundle of 2 or 3 pt levels?
2-point CSL with a weapon, "Only with this weapon" (which is pretty much
what Focus means in this case).
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:45:44 EST
From: ErolB1@aol.com
Subject: Re: How much damage should guns do.
In a message dated 99-01-25 03:42:12 EST, mcallahan@home.com writes:
> Ok, I recognize that this could start some rancorous debate so I'll ask for
> civility from the start.
>
> I think that the damage values for firearms, rifles in particular, are
> wrong. Case in point a .50 caliber Desert Eagle (a pistol) is rated at
> 2D6+1 with a +1 stun mult, a 7.62 Nato Rifle round is also rated at 2D6+1
> with a +1 stun mult. From a real world perspective this is flat wrong, the
> rifle round has an order of magnitude more energy behind it (if you follow
> the every doubling of power is an increase of 1 DC than the rifle should be
> 3D6+1 if the pistol is 2D6+1). Now either the Desert Eagle is doing too
> much damage or the 7.62 isn't doing enough, I lean towards the latter.
[snip analysis]
I agree that realistic rifles should do more damage than listed in the book.
What the book gives are cinematic/comicbook values for rifle damage - and it's
a cinematic/comicbook convention that there is little difference between
pistol and rifle rounds. (I've noticed how comicbooks are forced by genre to
take a very 'Handgun Control Incorporated' view of how the world works, even
when the writers aren't trying to put out propaganda - but that's a rant for
another time.)
One *could* handwave and claim that bullet damage should be based on momentum
rather than kinetic energy, and note that the Desert Eagle and 7.62 have very
close to the same momentum. I don't completely buy this argument, but I do
think that momentum does have some effect. In a 'realistic guns' game I'd rate
the 7.62 at 3D6 with no stun mult. instead of your 3D6+1/+1 Stun.
> I think my point here is that rifles just don't do enough damage compared
> to pistols, so fixing that would be good, but the consequences of upping
> rifle damage are icky, what does everybody else think.
It depends on whether you are trying to be true to real life or true to the
comicbook/cinematic genre. The consequences of upping rifle damage are icky,
which is why the genre ignores the increased power of rifles over pistols.
Erol K. Bayburt
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow
------------------------------
Date: 25 Jan 1999 10:53:07 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Multipower Questions
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"q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes:
q> You're putting the Charges Limitation on the MP itself rather than the
q> Power, so the MP can only be used 4 times. QED.
You put x2 END cost on the MP. Does it increase the END cost of using the
MP or does it increase the END cost of using the powers in the MP?
QED, as you say.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ head.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:32:33 -0600 (CST)
From: gilberg@ou.edu
Subject: Re: Levels and Limitations
>But being useable with only the blaster rifle is more limiting than being
>useable only with, say, eyebeam blasts. The blaster rifle can't be used as
>often: It can be taken away, while the eyebeam blasts can't.
>
Yes, but you already get a limitation on the blaster rifle power.
If you want to make this argument, since punching is basically always
available, while eye-Beams could conceivably been taken away, then levels
for punch would cost more than levels for eye beams.
-Tim Gilberg
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:42:45 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: A painful question
On Mon, 25 Jan 1999 ErolB1@aol.com wrote:
> > > Actually I use 100 + 50. 100 base points and 50 points of disads. I
> > > don't want my players taking disads they have no intention of playing.
> > > Also I came to HSR from GURPS and I brought a lot of baggage with me.
> >
> > In my games we have debated the 150+100 Super, thus removing part of the
> > unneeded disad problem. It did work as excesses hunted and the like were
> > dropped, providing for a tighter concept.
>
> Milage varies on this. Personally I like this: I have a relatively hard time
> coming up with 150 points of disads, and often the last 50 pts or so are
> 'stretchers.' But I have friends who find it easy to come up with the full 150
> pts of disads and more.
I have found this depends on the character concept. Some have lent them
selves to a full 150 points (or more) of assorted disads, other have
ground to a halt just as I hit (say) 100 points.
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"I don't care where I go, as long as it ain't here..."
George Thorogood, "Gear Jammer"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:37:08 -0600 (CST)
From: gilberg@ou.edu
Subject: Re: A painful question
>I see it as being inherently masochistic. I know *intellectually* that some
>people get great enjoyment out of this, just as I know *intellectually* that
>some people get great pleasure out of being tied to a post and flogged. But
>*emotionally* I Just Don't Get It.
You don't play Call of Cuthulu, do you? One thing was that we knew
this was going to be a short campaign--all of our games in that group were
short campaigns lasting from 3-8 sessions or so. But why would you assume
that being less powerful than what is around you is equivalent to being flogged?
>The best thing for all involved is for me to steer clear of such games. But
>I'm touchy about any suggestion that these games are somehow "superior"
>instead of just being a specialized aquired taste, and that my own preferences
>for higher powered and 'brighter' games are immature, 'munckin' and inferior.
And I wouldn't argue as such except for the fact that it seems to be
completely true in your case. By arguing that a game where one is
lower-powered is equivalent to being flogged, you place yourself quite well
into the munchkin camp. Some people can do just fine without cosmic power,
thank you very much.
-Tim Gilberg
------------------------------
Date: 25 Jan 1999 11:03:08 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: How much damage should guns do.
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"MC" == Max Callahan <mcallahan@home.com> writes:
MC> From a real world perspective this is flat wrong, the rifle round has
MC> an order of magnitude more energy behind it (if you follow the every
MC> doubling of power is an increase of 1 DC than the rifle should be 3D6+1
MC> if the pistol is 2D6+1).
You are making the assumption that all the energy of the round is converted
to damage. This is not the case. Large caliber handgun rounds tend to
dump most of their energy into the target; small caliber military rifle
rounds tend to retain much of their energy. So even though .50 Magnum has
less total muzzle energy than 7.62mm NATO Ball, more of the .50's energy
translates to damage than the 7.62mm's.
The listed damages are quite reasonable, and can be disturbingly accurate
if the hit location chart is used.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 16:57:58 +0000
From: Stephen McGinness <MCGINNESSS@parliament.uk>
Subject: Re: Multipower Questions - Reply
Rat gave an example of 2x END on the multipower which was a bad example
because the MP does not inherently cost END to use. :-)
I have however created a characrter which had a multipower which cost END to
use (ie, it tired him out to keep switching his abilities, END based on how many
points the slots were) and I would have said that the 2x END would have
affected the END of changing the slots around, not the cost of using those slots.
Stephen
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 08:33:56 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: How much damage should guns do.
>>While I'm not familiar with the specific weapons you cite, I disagree.
>>The advantage of the rifle is that it is far more accurate at range.
>
>This has always been my impression as well. I understood that a 9mm bullet
>would do the same damage whether fired from a pistol or a rifle, and that
>the rifle's only advantage was added range.
>
>So, Max, I think you want to compare the two types of ammunition, not the
>two types of weapon. (I'm not sure that has any effect on your question,
>though, it may be purely semantic.)
Not really, while a rifle does have longer range and greater accuracy at
range, the bullets in a pisol and rifle are not the same. the actual led
ball is the same, but the cartrige has more powder and thus greater power
and muzzel velocity. This translates into more energy and more damage.
Thats why a 22 pistol is much less damaging than an M16 even though the
actual hunk of lead is very similar in size (.22 vs .223)
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:44:18 -0500
From: Brian Wawrow <bwawrow@mondello.toronto.fmco.com>
Subject: the painful question
Hi,
I have some thoughts on power levels. The biggest game I ever ran started at
a standard 150+100 sup-a-hero level with around 75 xp's handed out by time
it wrapped up. Everyone in the party was so mind bendingly tough that I
can't imagine running anything higher than that and still being able to
relate to the characters. Sure it's fun to go charging around the galaxy
scrapping planet eaters and godlings but to me, it gets kind of boring.
The more games I run, the less points I seem to give out. I find that when
you scale back the raw power, you get more running and jumping and careful
planning.
In the FH game I'm running now, I'm doing this thing called a prologue. This
amounts to about 8 sessions [including 2 solos for each player] that get
them up to the heroic level. I started the players at 50pts. + 40 pts.
disads including a 10 pt. racial package. From all the prologue sessions,
they'll get a total of 30pts. of experience and the option to take extra
disads totaling no higher than the amount of experience they have up to 30.
So, by time the prologue is finished they're at 80pts. plus 70pts. in
disads. All this plus some pretty heavy overhead where magic is involved has
really forced everyone to specialize while maintaining skills and perks for
flavour.
So, why do I find that the scraps are more fun at these levels? Well,
mobility is greatly reduced. Nobody flies so the small group tactics become
more important. There's only one guy that can really take much of a hit.
There's only one guy with a decent ranged attack and so on.
It's all about running and jumping and scrapping it out.
I think it would be fun to play some planetsmashers but I really can't
conceive of a game running for a long time. It would be interesting though.
Brian Wawrow
Financial Models Company
"Imagination is more important than knowledge. it is the source of all true
art and science"
- Albert Einstein
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:26:19 -0500
From: Brian Wawrow <bwawrow@mondello.toronto.fmco.com>
Subject: RE: How much damage should guns do.
I'm totally with Elliot here. I think the effect of the attacks is more
important than the 'real world' numbers. Of course, if you're a Guns n' Ammo
enthusiast then by all means, be precise.
Now, here's my own two cents. Superpowers aside, as tech level increases, so
should the lethality of military weapons. A 1D6+1RKA is silly if you're
really trying to kill people. You can get a realistic modern warfare flavour
if everybody has a gun that can kill anybody in the fight with one lucky
shot or two average shots. Combat becomes a contest of reaction speeds and
tactics.
Somebody's asking me telepathically, "But, Bri! Doesn't that mean the
player's will bleed and get legs shot off and maybe die?" Well, yes. But if
you want realism, worrying about what Jane's says about a given piece of
ordinance is less important than fear. Remember, in realistic gun fights, an
overconfidence disad for 15pts. will probably get you killed. Even in a
cinematic genre, nobody [superpowers aside] should shrug off a three round
burst from an Uzi.
] Gun Damage? glad you asked...
] =================================
] Billy Joe Agent 2d6 Killing
]
] Agent Squad Leader 3d6 Killing
]
] Supreme Agent 4d6 Killing
]
] Then take the above levels and season to taste with
] autofire, armor-pierce, area-effect, or long-range.
]
] IMC, HYDRA is fond of autofire, GENOCIDE likes
] Armor-Piercing. PSI agents tend to have long-range
] modifiers, and other low budget Agencies have either
] Area-Effect or no advantages at all. Typical Agent Gun
] is 2d6 Killing vs. PD, OAF, Zero End, Personal Focus.
] This means if you pick up an Agent Gun, it immediately
] runs out of ammo, but it never seems to run out of ammo
] in the agent's hands.
]
] Oh wait a minute. My bad. You wanted to talk about calibers,
] ballistics, and metallurgy and gunsmithing? Realism in Ammo?
] No thanks. I'll stick to my Hero System.
]
] ==
] =========================== Elliott aka The Egyptoid ==
] === JLA: Justice League Alabama === Central HQ ===========
] === http://www.sysabend.org/champions/elliott/index.html =
]
] _________________________________________________________
] DO YOU YAHOO!?
] Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
]
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:27:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Ell Egyptoid <egyptoid@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: A painful question
Here's an exercise. Watch the movie, The Bodyguard, with Kevin Costner.
If you can stay awake thru the Whitney scenes, just take notes on
everything that Costner's character, an ex-secret -service man can do.
If you just buy each skill at the basic level, for everything
he at which demonstrates competency on screen, he's 300 points.
If you assume good stats, and a few more obvious skills and equipment,
he approaches 400 points. And he's just a "competent normal"
==
=========================== Elliott aka The Egyptoid ==
=== JLA: Justice League Alabama === Central HQ ===========
=== http://www.sysabend.org/champions/elliott/index.html =
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:28:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Chris Hartjes <chris@ergmusic.com>
Subject: Limitations on Multipowers
This whole limitation thing has me scratching my head, mainly because I don't
have the rule book in front of me.
Now, my question is this: If you apply a limitation to the Control part of the
multipower, do you have to buy that same limitation for each slot of the
multipower?
Here is my example:
20 Muchnkin Power Pool, OAF (-1) [40 AP]
2u Cool Power #1, OAF(-1) [40 AP]
2u Cool Power #2, OAF(-1) [40 AP]
It would seem to me that the player is getting to apply the OAF limiation
*twice* to the powers in the pool. Am I wrong?
- ----------------------------------
E-Mail: Chris Hartjes <chris@ergmusic.com>
Date: 25-Jan-99
Time: 12:23:43
This message was sent by XFMail
- ----------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 17:18:25 +0000
From: Stephen McGinness <MCGINNESSS@parliament.uk>
Subject: Re: Levels and Limitations - Reply
Surely the argument over whether the focus disad can be applied to the
weapon is not only whether the levels can be taken away, but whether they can
be used by someone else.
If the blaster rifle in question was equipped with all kinds of targetting kit then the
levels obviously belong to the rifle and not with the person using it. And thus due
the same focus limitation applied to the weapon.
Stephen
------------------------------
Date: 25 Jan 1999 12:59:21 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: How much damage should guns do.
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
"MC" == Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net> writes:
MC> That's correct. In fact, there are rifles that can fire pistol ammo
They are called submachineguns. Or useless. :)
MC> and pistols that can fire rifle ammo.
Only very small caliber rifle ammo, such as .22LR and .22 Magnum. Anything
much more powerful than that is likely to break your wrist.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ Earth, presumably from outer space.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:18:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Chris Hartjes <chris@ergmusic.com>
Subject: Re: Limitations on Multipowers
On 25-Jan-99 Anthony Jackson wrote:
> You are wrong. You are applying it once to the control cost, and once to
> each
> power ;). The cost of an ultra cost is 1/10 the _real_ cost of the power in
> the slot, and the power in the slot _is_ OAF.
That's what I thought. Sometimes you look at things that are right, but say to
yourself that it doesn't look right. This was one of those situations for me.
- ----------------------------------
E-Mail: Chris Hartjes <chris@ergmusic.com>
Date: 25-Jan-99
Time: 13:17:46
This message was sent by XFMail
- ----------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:58:43 -0600 (CST)
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Subject: Re: the painful question
> From: Brian Wawrow <bwawrow@mondello.toronto.fmco.com>
>
> Hi,
>
> I have some thoughts on power levels. The biggest game I ever ran started at
> a standard 150+100 sup-a-hero level with around 75 xp's handed out by time
> it wrapped up. Everyone in the party was so mind bendingly tough that I
> can't imagine running anything higher than that and still being able to
> relate to the characters. Sure it's fun to go charging around the galaxy
> scrapping planet eaters and godlings but to me, it gets kind of boring.
>
I feel obligated to re-state my standard comment about 'broader not deeper'
character growth. A large amount of experience points does not have to
be reflected by a large increase in raw power levels.
Curt Hicks
p.s. (I'm not disagreeing with Brian necessarily. I think his prologue idea
sounds interesting.)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:10:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Limitations on Multipowers
Chris Hartjes writes:
> Now, my question is this: If you apply a limitation to the Control part of
> the multipower, do you have to buy that same limitation for each slot of
> the multipower?
Yes.
>
> Here is my example:
>
> 20 Muchnkin Power Pool, OAF (-1) [40 AP]
> 2u Cool Power #1, OAF(-1) [40 AP]
> 2u Cool Power #2, OAF(-1) [40 AP]
>
> It would seem to me that the player is getting to apply the OAF limiation
> *twice* to the powers in the pool. Am I wrong?
You are wrong. You are applying it once to the control cost, and once to each
power ;). The cost of an ultra cost is 1/10 the _real_ cost of the power in
the slot, and the power in the slot _is_ OAF.
------------------------------
Date: 25 Jan 1999 13:03:39 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: How much damage should guns do.
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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"CT" == Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net> writes:
CT> Not really, while a rifle does have longer range and greater accuracy
CT> at range, the bullets in a pisol and rifle are not the same. the
CT> actual led ball is the same,
Nope. .22 LR and .223 (aka 5.56mm) have the same diameter round, but the
.223 round is some three or four times longer, thus that much more massive.
.223 and 5.56mm are also steel jacketed, whereas .22 LR is semi-jacketed
copper. That makes a tremendous difference in how the rounds deform on
impact, which is the determinant in how much damage each does. .22 LR does
proportionally more damage for its momentum than .223, because it deforms,
quickly dumping its energy into the target, whereas .223 retains its energy
and passes *through* the target.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ Earth, presumably from outer space.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:40:29 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filksinger@usa.net>
Subject: Re: A painful question
From: Tim Gilberg <gilberg@ou.edu>
> A couple of us were
>"famous figures" from history. (Pontius Pilot and Nostradamus.)
Pontius Pilate.
Normally, I wouldn't have said anything, but I am trying desperately to
dispel the vision of a man in a toga, flying a fighter jet....
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:21:15 -0500
From: "Johnson, Adam" <AJohnson@clariion.com>
Subject: RE: Limitations on Multipowers
If the entire pool has a focus, then the OAF goes on the pool cost, but will
still be applied to the power slots. If the focus is for only one power
slot, then the OAF goes on that power only.
If you put the OAF on the pool, you don't have to buy it again for the
slots, but the -1 modifier will still apply.
- ----------------------------------------------------------
Adam Johnson
Product Support -- Head Lab Resident Area Tech (RAT)
ajohnson@clariion.com
Life's a long song... but the tune ends too soon for us all
Jethro Tull, "Life's a Long Song," Living in the Past
- ----------------------------------------------------------
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Hartjes [SMTP:chris@ergmusic.com]
> Sent: Monday, 25 January, 1999 12:28
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: Limitations on Multipowers
>
> This whole limitation thing has me scratching my head, mainly because I
> don't
> have the rule book in front of me.
>
> Now, my question is this: If you apply a limitation to the Control part
> of the
> multipower, do you have to buy that same limitation for each slot of the
> multipower?
>
> Here is my example:
>
> 20 Muchnkin Power Pool, OAF (-1) [40 AP]
> 2u Cool Power #1, OAF(-1) [40 AP]
> 2u Cool Power #2, OAF(-1) [40 AP]
>
> It would seem to me that the player is getting to apply the OAF limiation
> *twice* to the powers in the pool. Am I wrong?
>
>
> ----------------------------------
> E-Mail: Chris Hartjes <chris@ergmusic.com>
> Date: 25-Jan-99
> Time: 12:23:43
>
> This message was sent by XFMail
> ----------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 09:14:21 -0600
From: Tim Statler <tstatler@igateway.net>
Subject: OT:Odd Quotes
Got these from a freind, some of you might enjoy them.
Tim Statler
> ------------------------------------------------
>
> >>>> 1. Well, this day was a total waste of makeup.
> >>>>
> >>>> 2. Make yourself at home! Clean my kitchen.
> >>>>
> >>>> 3. Who are these kids and why are they calling me Mom?
> >>>>
> >>>> 4. A hard-on doesn't count as personal growth.
> >>>>
> >>>> 5. Don't bother me. I'm living happily ever after.
> >>>>
> >>>> 6. Do I look like a f--king people person?
> >>>>
> >>>> 7. This isn't an office. It's Hell with fluorescent lighting.
> >>>>
> >>>> 8. I started out with nothing & still have most of it left.
> >>>>
> >>>> 9. I pretend to work. They pretend to pay me.
> >>>>
> >>>> 10. I've found Jesus. He was behind the sofa the whole time.
> >>>>
> >>>> 11. If I throw a stick, will you leave?
> >>>>
> >>>> 12. You! Off my planet!
> >>>>
> >>>> 13. Therapy is expensive, poppin' bubble wrap is cheap! You
> choose.
> >>>>
> >>>> 14. Practice random acts of intelligence & senseless acts of
> >>>> self-control.
> >>>>
> >>>> 15. Bottomless pit of needs & wants.
> >>>>
> >>>> 16. I like cats, too. Let's exchange recipes.
> >>>>
> >>>> 17. Friendly checkout clerk. Thanks for keeping me that way!
> >>>>
> >>>> 18. If I want to hear the pitter patter of little feet, I'll put
> shoes on my cat.
> >>>>
> >>>> 19. Does your train of thought have a caboose?
> >>>>
> >>>> 20. The Bible was written by the same people who said the Earth
> was
> >>flat.
> >>>>
> >>>> 21. Did the aliens forget to remove your anal probe?
> >>>>
> >>>> 22. Errors have been made. Others will be blamed.
> >>>>
> >>>> 23. God was my co-pilot, but we crashed into the mountains and I
> had to eat him.
> >>>>
> >>>> 24. Let me show you how the guards used to do it.
> >>>>
> >>>> 25. And just how may I f--k you over today?
> >>>>
> >>>> 26. And your crybaby whiny-assed opinion would be...?
> >>>>
> >>>> 27. I'm not crazy, I've just been in a very bad mood for 30 years.
> >>>>
> >>>> 28. If only you'd use your powers for good instead of evil...
> >>>>
> >>>> 29. See no evil, hear no evil, date no evil.
> >>>>
> >>>> 30. A PBS mind in an MTV world.
> >>>>
> >>>> 31. Yeah, right! Like I'm going to put that icky thing in my
> mouth.
> >>>>
> >>>> 32. Allow me to introduce my selves.
> >>>>
> >>>> 33. Sarcasm is just one more service we offer.
> >>>>
> >>>> 34. Whisper my favorite words: "I'll buy it for you."
> >>>>
> >>>> 35. Better living through denial.
> >>>>
> >>>> 36. Whatever kind of look you were going for, you missed.
> >>>>
> >>>> 37. Suburbia: where they tear out the trees & then name streets
> after
> >>>> them.
> >>>>
> >>>> 38. Adult child of alien invaders.
> >>>>
> >>>> 39. Do they ever shut up on your planet?
> >>>>
> >>>> 40. I'm just working here till a good fast-food job opens up.
> >>>>
> >>>> 41. Are those your eyeballs? I found them in my cleavage.
> >>>>
> >>>> 42. I'm not your type. I'm not inflatable.
> >>>>
> >>>> 43. I'm trying to imagine you with a personality.
> >>>>
> >>>> 44. A cubicle is just a padded cell without a door.
> >>>>
> >>>> 45. Stress is when you wake up screaming & you realize you haven't fallen asleep yet.
> >>>>
> >>>> 46. Mall whore: I can suck the numbers right off your credit
> cards.
> >>>>
> >>>> 47. After I cook the vegetables, what do I do with the
> wheelchairs?
> >>>>
> >>>> 48. Here I am! Now what are your other two wishes?
> >>>>
> >>>> 49. Back off! You're standing in my aura.
> >>>>
> >>>> 50. I can't remember if I'm the good twin or the evil one.
> >>>>
> >>>> 51. Don't worry. I forgot your name, too!
> >>>>
> >>>> 52. Adults are just kids who owe money.
> >>>>
> >>>> 53. One of us is thinking about sex... OK, it's me.
> >>>>
> >>>> 54. How many times do I have to flush before you go away?
> >>>>
> >>>> 55. I have a computer, a vibrator, & pizza delivery. Why should I leave the house?
> >>>>
> >>>> 56. I just want revenge. Is that so wrong?
> >>>>
> >>>> 57. It's sick the way you people keep having sex without me.
> >>>>
> >>>> 58. I work 40 hours a week to be this poor.
> >>>>
> >>>> 59. You say I'm a bitch like it's a bad thing.
> >>>>
> >>>> 60. Can I trade this job for what's behind door #2?
> >>>>
> >>>> 61. Okay, okay, I take it back! UnF--k you!
> >>>>
> >>>> 62. Macho Law forbids me from admitting I'm wrong.
> >>>>
> >>>> 63. Nice perfume. Must you marinate in it?
> >>>>
> >>>> 64. Not all people are annoying. Some are dead.
> >>>>
> >>>> 65. Too many freaks, not enough circuses.
> >>>>
> >>>> 66. Chaos, panic, & disorder-my work here is done.
> >>>>
> >>>> 67. A woman's favorite position is CEO.
> >>>>
> >>>> 68. Ambivalent? Well, yes and no.
> >>>>
> >>>> 69. You look like shit. Is that the style now?
> >>>>
> >>>> 70. Everyone thinks I'm psychotic, except for my friends deep
> inside
> >>the
> >>>> earth.
> >>>>
> >>>> 71. Earth is full. Go home.
> >>>>
> >>>> 72. Is it time for your medication or mine?
> >>>>
> >>>> 73. Does this condom make me look fat?
> >>>>
> >>>> 74. Did I mention the kick in the groin you'll be receiving if you
> >>touch
> >>>> me?
> >>>>
> >>>> 75. I plead contemporary insanity.
> >>>>
> >>>> 76. And which dwarf are you?
> >>>>
> >>>> 77. I refuse to star in your psychodrama.
> >>>>
> >>>> 78. I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted
> paychecks.
> >>>>
> >>>> 79. How do I set a laser printer to stun?
> >>>>
> >>>> 80. It ain't the size, it's ... no, it's the size.
> >>>>
> >>>> 81. Meandering to a different drummer.
> >>>>
> >>>> 82. I'm not tense, just terribly, terribly alert.
> >>>>
> >>>> 83. I majored in liberal arts. Will that be for here or to go?
> >>>>
> >>
> >
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #159
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