Digest Archives Vol 1 Issue 162
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 12:02 AM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #162
champ-l-digest Tuesday, January 26 1999 Volume 01 : Number 162
In this issue:
Re: Limitations on Multipowers
Re: How much damage should guns do.
Re: How much damage should guns do.
Re: A painful question
Re: Levels and Limitations
Character: Faramir
Re: Levels and Limitations
Re: A painful question
Re: How much damage should guns do.
Gun Damage
Re: A painful question
Re: Limitations on Multipowers
Re: A painful question
Re: Gun Damage
Re: [Re: Limitations on Multipowers]
Re: A painful question
Re: How much damage should guns do.
Re: Levels and Limitations
Re: How much damage should guns do.
Re: How much damage should guns do.
RE: A painful question
Re: How much damage should guns do.
Re: How much damage should guns do.
Re: A painful question
Re: Gun Damage
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 15:27:26 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Limitations on Multipowers
At 12:28 PM 1/25/99 -0500, Chris Hartjes wrote:
>This whole limitation thing has me scratching my head, mainly because I don't
>have the rule book in front of me.
>
>Now, my question is this: If you apply a limitation to the Control part
of the
>multipower, do you have to buy that same limitation for each slot of the
>multipower?
>
>Here is my example:
>
>20 Muchnkin Power Pool, OAF (-1) [40 AP]
>2u Cool Power #1, OAF(-1) [40 AP]
>2u Cool Power #2, OAF(-1) [40 AP]
>
>It would seem to me that the player is getting to apply the OAF limiation
>*twice* to the powers in the pool. Am I wrong?
Under this construction, no. Even though OAF is listed for the Pool and
each slot, it's actually (mathematically speaking) applied only once.
However, the answer to the earlier question is yes; a Limitation to an
entire Multipower is also applied to the individual slots, both
mechanically and in terms of cost.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:26:23 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: How much damage should guns do.
>* I reject the excuse that the damage values given are what they are
>because they are intended for "comic book" or "cinematic" damage. The core
>rules -- including damage values for common weapons -- need to apply
>equally to all genres, not just comic book or cinematic/high adventure
>games. If you want to modify the damage ratings, or the way damage is
>calculated, within a genre book, fine.
Stop right there. You're playing the wrong game.
I'm quite serious; while there are various rules to make this less so, the
base assumptions in the Hero System are and always have been cinematic in
nature; this goes all the way from the strength values to the damage to the
fact people can dodge bullets as effectively as thrown rocks. If you don't
realize that, trying to address this sort of thing will cause you enormous
frustration, because it's too well embodied int he core design of the rules.
The Hero System was designed initially around the superhero genre, and the
basic assumptions in it support that sort of feel. The fact it is useable
for other settings is largely an artifact of the fact the superhero genre is
so all encompassing. But if you expect it's assumptions at the root to be
truly genre/style neutral, you're in the wrong game.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 17:21:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: How much damage should guns do.
Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin writes:
> Okay, I think I admitted my ignorance -- certainly hinted at it -- when I
> joined this thread. I'm willing to be educated here, but as there are
> already people complaining about where this thread is going, I'll try to
> make my remaining comments and questions brief:
>
> * For me, this is less a matter of overhauling the listed damage ratings of
> all the weapons in Hero System (way too much trouble for me) and more a
> matter of understanding what went into calculating those ratings in the
> first place -- assuming real-world physics played any part in those
> calculations.
Unlikely that it did. I think it was more a case of 'weapon X is more powerful
than weapon Y, so we'll make it do more damage'.
>
> * I reject the excuse that the damage values given are what they are
> because they are intended for "comic book" or "cinematic" damage. The core
> rules -- including damage values for common weapons -- need to apply
> equally to all genres, not just comic book or cinematic/high adventure
> games. If you want to modify the damage ratings, or the way damage is
> calculated, within a genre book, fine.
You can reject it all you want, but its the only explanation for the damage
done by some of the larger pistols (particularly as compared to rifles) and for
how gun damage compares to various strength-powered weaponry.
>
> * Several people more knowledgeable than myself have offered specifics on
> various weapons and ammo; so far I've heard nothing that disputes my
> earlier statement that damage is a function of the ammunition (the
> projectile and its charge, since the shooter can opt for "hot loads")
> rather than the weapon. Except for one thing:
>
> * I understand how the rifling of the barrel imparts spin to the
> projectile. I understand how this improves accuracy at range. I don't
> understand how it imparts additional *velocity* to the projectile, which is
> the only way I can see that a rifle, firing the same ammunition as a
> pistol, could be expected to do more damage.
Basically, its because of how a gun accelerates a bullet: you start with a
bullet, and behind it you have propellant. This propellant is ignited,
generating high pressure behind the bullet. This pressure forces the bullet
out of the gun. Now, the longer the distance you can apply pressure over, the
more energy is transferred from the high pressure gas to the gun (explaining
exactly why this is true would involve explaining the behavior of gases, which
is more than I'm inclined to do right now. However, if you recognize that (a)
a bullet gains X energy after the first foot, and (b) after the first foot, the
pressure behind the bullet has not dropped to 0, it is reasonably obvious that
the bullet will continue to gain energy after the first foot).
This is added to by factors involving burn time -- basically, if you have a
longer barrel, you can use more powder without splitting your barrel, but the
powder has to burn slower.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:57:26 -0700
From: Curtis A Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
Subject: Re: A painful question
Brian Wawrow wrote:
>
> <RANT>
>
> You know, there is a happy medium between players always dying and players
> never dying. Playing a game you always win is just as boring as playing a
> game you always lose.
>
> In my experience, the fights that are fun involve a scenario where the
> players can take measures to minimize the threat to themselves by taking
> cover, creating crossfires, exploiting vulnerabilies and thinking before
> they act. If you run a game where there's no threat to the player, I don't
> see much adventure. Likewise if all the players do is run away because they
> keep getting pounded, where's the payoff?
That then is the point. Not dying does not in any way shape or form
equate to not losing. In a Champs game, loosing can create much bad
publicity, being captured, not stopping the master plan ect.... no
reason for the character to die, and a lot of ways to motivate the
players to win.
Although I can see your point. Done well and within a good storyline a
true threat of death can work.
Mostly what I was complaining about (not that anyone here does this) is
the player vs GM mentality, where the GM waits for the characters to
make a mistake and kills them for it. That is the old leftover from AD&D
that I can't stand.
- -Mhoram
- --
What is called glory, I think, is mostly the relief you feel after
you've fought and lived through battle without getting maimed.
- -Harry Turtledove Krispos Rising
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:42:35 -0600 (Central Standard Time)
From: Tim Gilberg <gilberg@ou.edu>
Subject: Re: Levels and Limitations
> > If you want a level with "blaster rifles," you take a 3 pt level.
> > If you want a level with a specific blaster rifle, you take a 2 pt level.
>
> And if the level is inherent in the gun rather than a skill (i.e. the
> rifle is more accurate) you take a 5-pt level and put OAF and Only for
> Blaster Rifles on it.
Why? The rules state that you can't put an OAF on levels worth
less than 5 pts. As 2 pt levels apply here, you put them on and leave the
lim off. Don't use a skill+lim to simulate what a skill already does.
-Tim Gilberg
-"English Majors of the World! Untie!"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:35:30 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: Character: Faramir
FARAMIR, RANGER-LORD OF ITHILIEN
16 STR 6
18 DEX 24
16 CON 12
16 BODY 12
15 INT 5
18 EGO 16
17 PRE 7
12 COM 1
7 PD 4
5 ED 2
5 SPD 32
10 REC 8
60 END 19
55 STUN 28
Characteristics Cost: 176
7 +3" Running,1/2 END
2 +2" Swimming
4 WF,Common Melee,Common Missile
24 3 Levels,all combat
6 2 Levels: Bows,
4 2 Range Levels,bows
9 15- Combat Sense
5 Defense Maneuver
7 15- Fast Draw
3 Bureaucratics 12-
5 Climbing 14-
19 Concealment 20-
9 Disguise 14-
5 High Society 13 -
7 Mimicry 13-
11 Navigation 15-
5 Oratory 13-
3 Paramedic 12-
5 Riding 14-
11 Shadowing 15-
9 Stealth 16-
11 Survival 15-
9 Tactics 15-
11 Tracking 16-
1 TF,Boats
6 15- Contact: Denethor
2 11- Contact: Imrahil
2 11- Contact: Boromir
10 Money,wealthy
6 AK: Gondor 15-
11 AK: Ithilien 20-
7 AK: Minas Tirith 16-
4 KS: The Nobility of Gondor 13-
2 KS: Heraldry 11 -
4 KS: Orc Tactics 13-
1 Lang: Westron,native,literacy
1 Lang: Adunaic,literacy
3 Lang: Black Speech,fluent conversation,literacy
65 100 150-point followers (Ithilien Rangers)
18 Package,"Numenorean Bow",STR Min 10,OAF-
(12) 2D6 Killing Attack Ranged-
(4) 2 Levels,related group
(2) 2 Rng Levels: Bows,tight group
Powers Cost: 334
Total Cost: 510
Base Points: 75
5 Distinctive Features,"Dunedain Warrior",easily concealable,
minor
20 Hunted,"Servants of Sauron",as powerful,harsh,appear 14-
10 Watched,"Denethor",more powerful,noncombat influence,harsh,
appear 8-
15 Psychological Limitation,"Hatred of Orcs and Dark Servants",
common,strong
20 Psychological Limitation,"Protective of Ithilien",very
common,strong
15 Psychological Limitation,"Code of Honor",common,strong
10 Public ID,"Son of Ruling Steward"
10 Reputation,"Hero of Ithilien",occur 11-
330 Always Comes in Second Bonus
Disadvantages Total: 435
Experience Spent: 0
Total Points: 510
Faramir, son of Denethor, and younger brother of Boromir, is one
of the greatest heroes in The Lord of the Rings, although his presence
is only rarely felt. With a small band of skilled rangers, he moves through
enemy-held Ithilien (the eastern province of Gondor, beyond the Anduin
river), preying upon the orcs who have taken over his beloved land.
Ithilien is crawling with the dark servants of Sauron, from orcs and trolls
to nazgul and crebain. The Dark Lord has eyes everywhere, including
his own, via the palantir, and yet the ever-moving Faramir eludes his
forces and continues to harry them.
At the time of the War of the Ring, Faramir is thirty-six years old. Unlike
Boromir, he is not a lover of war, and is instead a gentle man who loves
music and the arts. Because of his gentle nature and his association
with Gandalf, Faramir is not in the good graces of his father.
During the War of the Ring, Faramir fought the forces of Mordor and
sheltered the Ring-bearers and led the retreat of the Gondorian forces
before the siege of Gondor. He fell victim to the Black Breath, and was
nearly cremated alive by Denethor in his madness. He was rescued
by Gandalf and cured by Aragorn. While recovering, he met and fell
in love with Eowyn, whom he married the following year. Under Elessar's
(Aragorn's) rule, he became Steward of Gondor, Prince of Ithilien and
Lord of Emyn Arnen. He died at the age of 120 in Fourth Age 82.
NOTES:
1) Faramir does not have a rivalry with Boromir, even though Boromir
has one with him. Faramir just didn't care about such things.
2) Note the frequency of his Hunted. Faramir lived in Sauron's backyard
and was a constant thorn in his side.
3) The bow I made up. It seems to me to fit the character.
4) I gave Faramir the ability to speak Black Speech because I
believe he must frequently have spied on orcs. Both Adunaic
and Black Speech are corruptions of Quenya, so they may not
be terribly dissimilar.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"In the void is virtue and no evil. Wisdom has existence,
principle has existence, the Way has existence; spirit
is nothingness."
Miyamoto Musashi, A Book of Five Rings
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scott C. Nolan
nolan@erols.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:05:21 -0600 (CST)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Levels and Limitations
On 25 Jan 1999, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> "N" == Nuncheon <jeffj@io.com> writes:
>
> N> 1) If the levels are OAF Blaster rifle, only for use with Blaster Rifle
> N> then they are most certainly more limited than CSLs with only one of
> N> those limitations. Examples follow:
>
> Two-point combat skill levels are purchased for a specific power or
> maneuver, and they may be used *ONLY* with that specific power or maneuver.
> Any limitation that attemps to restrict the use of that CSL to that power
> is redundant, thus worth no bonus.
1) You can't limit anything smaller than a 5-pt level anyway.
2) I never said 2-pt levels. If that was assumed then I missed that bit
of the context.
Here's an example of what I was talking about:
Skill with OAF:
+1 level with ranged weapons (5), OAF Mystic Foobar (-1): 5 AP, 2 real.
Skill with blaster rifles:
+1 level with ranged weapons, only for blaster rifle: you would
probably do this as a 2 point level.
More accurate Blaster Rifle:
+1 level with ranged weapons (5), OAF Blaster Rifle (-1), Only for use
with blaster rifles (-1): 5 AP, 2 real.
I realize that all come out to the same cost, but that does change
if more than one level is purchased. If 3 levels are purchased, for
example:
#1 = 15 AP, 7 RP
#2 = 6 AP, 6 RP
#3 = 15 AP, 5 RP
J
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:53:58 -0600
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: A painful question
At 04:02 PM 1/25/99 -0800, James Jandebeur wrote:
>To each their own, as you say (or use words to that effect). I'd put myself
>more around the 12-14 range.
>
>"I luff you all. Ho ho ho!"
Hey, Bjorne, wrong list! :]
>I've killed characters, but only when it was dramatically correct. The one
>time when someone did something so mind-numbingly stupid that he should have
>died (he attacked a Death Star equivalent in a fighter without taking
>advantage of any weaknesses in his opponent), I left him bobbing about in
>hard vacuum for a while after his ship was destroyed.
Heh. That'll teach Luke to fall asleep during the Rebel briefings. :]
> He was then picked up by the other PC's, but was without his nifty little
> ship for some time after that and had to recover from nasty aftereffects
> of his trip into space.
>
> I'm just too soft for this job... But I'm working on it.
I wouldn't say so ... but that just might mean I'M too soft for this job. :/
Seriously, I probably would have done the same (or similar) thing -- let the
player /think/ his character's a goner, but allow a reasonable rescue. On
the other hand, there's a lot of flexibility in the words "reasonable
rescue" -- saving the character will probably require something as
mind-numbingly CLEVER as the original travesty was stupid.
- --
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- attributed to Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 17:47:54 -0800
From: Max Callahan <mcallahan@home.com>
Subject: Re: How much damage should guns do.
>* I understand how the rifling of the barrel imparts spin to the
>projectile. I understand how this improves accuracy at range. I don't
>understand how it imparts additional *velocity* to the projectile, which is
>the only way I can see that a rifle, firing the same ammunition as a
>pistol, could be expected to do more damage.
>
>>For more (and better) explanations of this, see BTRCs 3G3 (Previous
>>edition was known as Guns!Guns!Guns!).
>
>I recently got a copy of this, in fact. However, flipping quickly through
>the first 25 pages or so, I found nothing to suggest increased barrel
>length adds anything but accuracy. If you can point me to a page
>reference, great.
>
>Damon
Barrel length adds to the velocity because the longer the length of the
barrel, the longer the bullet is accelerated by the explosion pushing it
out of the barrel. If I have a very short barrel then the bullet only goes
a short distance before it leaves the barrel and any remaining energy from
the exploding gunpower is lost, in a longer barrel the explosion is
contained behind the bullet longer allowing more momentum to be imparted
into the bullet. Now given that a DC increase/decrease requires a
doubling/halving of energy a barrel long/short enough to change the DC of
the round would be extremely long/short but it is a factor.
So a rifle that fired the exact same round as a pistol it would do a
little more damage. The main reason that rifles do more damage is that
while their rounds are often smaller in diamater ( a 7.62 Nato round is
less than half the diamater of a .50 Cal Magnum round), rifle rounds
contain much much more gunpower than pistol rounds.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:04:00 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@sprynet.com>
Subject: Gun Damage
First off, there are several custom made handguns that are chambered for
things like .50 rounds. That my friends is a machine gun round. Not even a
rifle.
Of course it is a custom gun, made in Canada I think, For grizzly
protection.
Second, I have always wondered about gun damage. I run a sci fi rpg (2300
AD) using Hero rules. Now BTRC's "More Guns" supplement has lots of guns
for Hero, but I am still stuck.
To get realistic damage for something like a plasma rifle or laser rifle, I
had them doing damage listed for a 120mm cannon in DI.
Is there a fix for this?
TV
Ps. I sent this to an individual the first time. still sorting out how to
respond to the list
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:50:59 -0700
From: Curtis A Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
Subject: Re: A painful question
gilberg@ou.edu wrote:
<Death descriptions snipped>
> The GM put us in very frightening and dangerous situations where we
> had to use creativity, in character, to survive. We did. However, he was
> careful to place us on the edge while still allowing us to stay alive--death
> wasn't a definate thing.
Ah. Player choice deaths, in a closed end campaign. That works fine by
me. To quote the Emerald City Doorman "well, why didn't you say so?!?!"
8)
>
> >To me, and this may be a matter of taste, gaming is about enjoying a
> >co-operative story. I've always felt that the 'do the wrong thing and
> >you die' type games is one of those holdevers from AD&D/wargaming, just
> >like hack 'n' slashing,; or not caring about characterization, but just
> >about how tough you are.
>
The fact that this gaming group ran series of short campaigns
> allowed us to be pretty free with possible death. It happened, and it was
> realistic. In one game, every character died when Chicago was nuked. An
> interesting one. If a certain session was really popular, we'd go back and
> play a sequal or two. Like I said, I survived that low-powered normal game,
> but I didn't do too well in some other sessions. In that high-powered one,
> I lost two characters, actually, in two separate sessions. Both were very
> much in-character deaths, however.
Very good points all. You clarified your statesments to anyone's
satisfaction. Thank you.
As for campaign types, I have just never liked (and this is completely
personal taste) closed end short games.
I run a Champs game that is 8 years long, I run an FH that has gone on
7 years, I play in a champs that is 7 years old, another that ran 6, and
my wife's first campaign (starting with 1st edition) ran hers almost 10
years before she decided she wanted to play full time. The six year
campaign still seems short to me. ;)
- -Mhoram
- --
What is called glory, I think, is mostly the relief you feel after
you've fought and lived through battle without getting maimed.
- -Harry Turtledove Krispos Rising
------------------------------
Date: 25 Jan 1999 21:51:17 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Limitations on Multipowers
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"JJ" == James Jandebeur <james@javaman.to> writes:
JJ> However, it is nicely replaced by Variable Limitation, if allowed: eg. two
JJ> slots, one which is 4 charges, the other OAF, are both on a -1 limitation.
JJ> This could be considered to be a -1/2 Variable Limitation on the pool cost.
That is rather clever. I'm not sure that I would let it fly, but it is
clever.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:02:18 -0600 (Central Standard Time)
From: Tim Gilberg <gilberg@ou.edu>
Subject: Re: A painful question
> That then is the point. Not dying does not in any way shape or form
> equate to not losing. In a Champs game, loosing can create much bad
> publicity, being captured, not stopping the master plan ect.... no
> reason for the character to die, and a lot of ways to motivate the
> players to win.
But not every game is Champs. Certain genres need the occasional
horrific or tragic death.
> Although I can see your point. Done well and within a good storyline a
> true threat of death can work.
Definately. Note that in that agent campaign, we thought from the
very beginning that we would die. Didn't happen until the planned climax.
Great balance of threat vs reality.
> Mostly what I was complaining about (not that anyone here does this) is
> the player vs GM mentality, where the GM waits for the characters to
> make a mistake and kills them for it. That is the old leftover from AD&D
> that I can't stand.
And I was never pushing for such. This campaign was a very much a
GM and player cooperation.
-Tim Gilberg
-"English Majors of the World! Untie!"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:47:49 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Gun Damage
>
>First off, there are several custom made handguns that are chambered for
>things like .50 rounds. That my friends is a machine gun round. Not even a
>rifle.
>Of course it is a custom gun, made in Canada I think, For grizzly
>protection.
I really have to seriously wonder how someone could make a handgun that
could fire an actual .50 caliber machine gun round that wouldn't break a
human hand. You're not talking about the shortened .50 that the Desert
Eagle of that caliber fires, are you?
>To get realistic damage for something like a plasma rifle or laser rifle, I
>had them doing damage listed for a 120mm cannon in DI.
>Is there a fix for this?
Probably not, since the system essentially isn't realistic in this area,
mostly by design.
>Ps. I sent this to an individual the first time. still sorting out how to
>respond to the list
I do that about one time in five myself.
------------------------------
Date: 25 Jan 1999 22:05:13 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: [Re: Limitations on Multipowers]
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"AV" == ANTHONY VARGAS <anthony.vargas@usa.net> writes:
AV> (Hopefully the latter...)
Yes, the latter. Like I said, a Multipower is considered to be a single
power; Focus is irrelevant in that figuring. Notable cases in point, Drain
and Suppress treat a Multipower as a single power (you effectively Drain or
Suppress the points available from the reserve). When you add Focus to the
mix, you get the additional caveat of a breakable Focus: a Multipower is
considered to be a single Power, so if you do 1 BODY past its defenses, the
whole thing is gone.
If you want a Multipower with a bunch of different Focuses (the gadget
belt) each slot gets the Focus limitation, but the reserve does not. Yeah,
it is a little wacky; the whole concept of the Multipower is a bit wacky.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ Earth, presumably from outer space.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:35:23 -0600
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@binary.net>
Subject: Re: A painful question
Yes true HEROs arent what this game emulates ;) if you want an exercise... of
this sort try it with a real life person and includes skills like bike riding,
mushroom hunting and popular music, the points could get crazy, I havent done it
with HERO yet but have in GURPS hehehe, If I remember correctly the cost of
Graduating with a Bachelors from College was on the order of 75 pts in Gurps.
Wayne Shaw wrote:
> >Here's an exercise. Watch the movie, The Bodyguard, with Kevin Costner.
> >If you can stay awake thru the Whitney scenes, just take notes on
> >everything that Costner's character, an ex-secret -service man can do.
> >
> >If you just buy each skill at the basic level, for everything
> >he at which demonstrates competency on screen, he's 300 points.
> >
> >If you assume good stats, and a few more obvious skills and equipment,
> >he approaches 400 points. And he's just a "competent normal"
>
> No, he's a movie hero. Movie heroes are always extemely comptentent,
> especially in movies with an action component. Not that an ex-Secret
> Service guy would necessarily be small points, but you really can't draw too
> much conclusions from a movie hero, especially a central movie hero.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:54:54 -0600
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@binary.net>
Subject: Re: How much damage should guns do.
steel jacketed = armor peircing ? oh stainless one
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
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> "CT" == Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net> writes:
>
> CT> Not really, while a rifle does have longer range and greater accuracy
> CT> at range, the bullets in a pisol and rifle are not the same. the
> CT> actual led ball is the same,
>
> Nope. .22 LR and .223 (aka 5.56mm) have the same diameter round, but the
> .223 round is some three or four times longer, thus that much more massive.
>
> .223 and 5.56mm are also steel jacketed, whereas .22 LR is semi-jacketed
> copper. That makes a tremendous difference in how the rounds deform on
> impact, which is the determinant in how much damage each does. .22 LR does
> proportionally more damage for its momentum than .223, because it deforms,
> quickly dumping its energy into the target, whereas .223 retains its energy
> and passes *through* the target.
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> --
> Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
> Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
> PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ Earth, presumably from outer space.
------------------------------
Date: 25 Jan 1999 22:53:23 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Levels and Limitations
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"N" == Nuncheon <jeffj@io.com> writes:
N> 1) You can't limit anything smaller than a 5-pt level anyway.
Tell that to the guy what brought up the idea of putting limitations on
2-point and 3-point skill levels.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ head.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:52:19 -0600
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@binary.net>
Subject: Re: How much damage should guns do.
And if you take the damage as a function of momentum rather than energy you will
keep your porportions a little closer (square root of your energy ratio) for
instance if the rifles load produces four times the energy it will result in
twice the momentum... which is 5 pts more in game terms
"now thats what i call vague hand waving"
Lance Dyas
Christopher Taylor wrote:
> >>While I'm not familiar with the specific weapons you cite, I disagree.
> >>The advantage of the rifle is that it is far more accurate at range.
> >
> >This has always been my impression as well. I understood that a 9mm bullet
> >would do the same damage whether fired from a pistol or a rifle, and that
> >the rifle's only advantage was added range.
> >
> >So, Max, I think you want to compare the two types of ammunition, not the
> >two types of weapon. (I'm not sure that has any effect on your question,
> >though, it may be purely semantic.)
>
> Not really, while a rifle does have longer range and greater accuracy at
> range, the bullets in a pisol and rifle are not the same. the actual led
> ball is the same, but the cartrige has more powder and thus greater power
> and muzzel velocity. This translates into more energy and more damage.
> Thats why a 22 pistol is much less damaging than an M16 even though the
> actual hunk of lead is very similar in size (.22 vs .223)
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
> Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 25 Jan 1999 21:48:01 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: How much damage should guns do.
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"D" == Damon <Michael> writes:
D> * For me, this is less a matter of overhauling the listed damage ratings
D> of all the weapons in Hero System (way too much trouble for me) and more
D> a matter of understanding what went into calculating those ratings in
D> the first place -- assuming real-world physics played any part in those
D> calculations.
Not so much real-world physics as observation of what the various rounds
actually do. Hero Games took that data and distilled it down to game
mechanics. In the process, they cut the damage ratings in half for
cinematic and superheroic games, and instituted the hit location table for
more realistic games. The result is something that is both playable and,
as I said, can be disturbingly accurate.
In the real world, a heavy handgun round (such as .44 Magnum) does
significantly more damage than a light assault rifle round (such as 5.56mm
NATO) to an unarmored target, all other things being equivalent. The
reason is not muzzle energy or momentum but energy transfer to the target.
Pistol rounds as a class dump most of their energy into the target on
impact, which makes for lousy armor penetration[1] but excelent 'stopping
power'. Light rifle rounds tend to retain their energy, which is good for
armor penetration but it means the rounds tend to punch through the target
as well, leaving narrow wound channels which close and heal quickly.
The one thing I would do differently is to reduce the base damage of the
light, high energy rounds like 5.56mm NATO by a DC or two, and use a
variant of armor piercing for them, something like the old Piercing
advantage from Champions III.
[1]Since I'm on the topic, I will point out that the so-called 'cop killer'
Black Talon is nasty not because it is coated in Teflon[2]. It is nasty
because of its physical construction. It is an overpowered .44 Magnum
round, which is already one of the most powerful handgun rounds in the
world. The point is shaped such that on impact it separates into sharp
blades that slice through ballistic fabrics. Whatever does not fragment
away punches through the weakened armor, doing all kinds of nasty hurt.
In Champions terms, I would use a base .44 Magnum round with enough points
of Piercing to negate the DEF of light body armor, except that the current
generation of ballistic fabrics is proof against this trick. I do not want
to make last chance vests Hardened because, well, they are not, so I am not
going to make Black Talons AP or Piercing.
[2]US Army ballistics tests have shown that the Teflon coating ever so
slightly reduces ballistic fabric penetration, but the difference is
negligible. *ALL* steel jacketed rounds are coated with Teflon, to reduce
barrel wear.
Ummm... hope all this helps. :)
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:11:02 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: RE: A painful question
On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Ell Egyptoid wrote:
> > On the Lethality Scale from 3 to 18, where 3 is The Road Warrior
>
> "Okay mate, we're gonna pull this spear outta yer leg
> when I count to Three, Okay?" "One" <<YANK>>
>
> I love that movie.
That sounds like a scene from "Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome" not "The Road
Warrior".
MAX: "Two days ago I saw a vehicle big enough to haul that tanker. You
wanna get out of here? Talk to me."
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
A train station is where trains stop. A bus station is where buses stop.
Well, I'm at a workstation.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:15:54 -0500
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@early.com>
Subject: Re: How much damage should guns do.
Max Callahan wrote:
>I think my point here is that rifles just don't do enough damage
compared
>to pistols, so fixing that would be good, but the consequences of
upping
>rifle damage are icky, what does everybody else think.
Another tack to take is to consider that regardless of how much
kinetic energy is behind the attack, the size, mass, and form of the
attack may place limits on how much raw damage is done. With typical
ammo (I'm simplifying things by avoiding the more complex effects of
tumbling rounds, fragmentation, and what not), there's a limit to how
terrible a wound a small projectile can produce--additional energy
makes it more likely the round passes through the body without
imparting all that energy upon the person hit. A heavy battle axe or
sword can't match pure KE or modern firearm projectiles, but can
produce some large, ghastly wounds, cleaving men in twain and all that
colorful stuff. Unlike a heavy rifle round, an axe doesn't waste much
of its damage energy by going clean through a man to continue on with
little loss of velocity.
Rather than upping the raw damage of more powerful ammo to the point
where they make axes and swords look wimpy, limit the raw damage
figure and credit the round with greater penetrating power. Treat the
round as an Armor Piercing attack, or give it some Piercing Points.
I tend to think of earlier firearms (up to and including the
development of the Minie ball), with their large rounds fired at
relatively low velocities, as typical RKAs. I treat many modern
firearms with their higher velocities as semi-Armor Piercing attacks
(a +1/4 Ad that isn't quite so effective as full AP), and the heaviest
rifle and machine gun rounds as true KAP attacks.
As a side note, I treat the damage done by arrows fired by very
powerful bows in a similar way. There's a limit to how much damage
ordinary arrows can do as they're shot with higher and higher
velocities. Once you get up to a bow of a certain STR rating, bows
that require still greater STR to draw start adding Piercing Points on
top of their arrows' damage, rather than increase the raw damage yet
further. So very powerful bows stand a better chance of piercing a
breast plate without necessarily making a more grievous wound.
Len Carpenter
redlion@early.com
------------------------------
Date: 25 Jan 1999 22:51:28 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: How much damage should guns do.
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"LD" == Lance Dyas <lancelot@binary.net> writes:
LD> steel jacketed = armor peircing ? oh stainless one
In the military listings, steel jacketed rounds are categorized as 'light
armor piercing' because, well, they are.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:46:17 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: A painful question
>Yes true HEROs arent what this game emulates ;) if you want an exercise... of
>this sort try it with a real life person and includes skills like bike riding,
>mushroom hunting and popular music, the points could get crazy, I havent
done it
>with HERO yet but have in GURPS hehehe, If I remember correctly the cost of
>Graduating with a Bachelors from College was on the order of 75 pts in Gurps.
Well, for the most part Hero ignores minor skills of that nature and/or
emulates them with Intelligence rolls.
And full blown heroes can be done quite well with Heroic scale characters;
it's just not assumed every Secret Service agent, policeman or private eye
you meet are built on those kind of points.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:14:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: Gun Damage
On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Wayne Shaw wrote:
> >
> >First off, there are several custom made handguns that are chambered for
> >things like .50 rounds. That my friends is a machine gun round. Not even a
> >rifle.
> >Of course it is a custom gun, made in Canada I think, For grizzly
> >protection.
>
> I really have to seriously wonder how someone could make a handgun that
> could fire an actual .50 caliber machine gun round that wouldn't break a
> human hand. You're not talking about the shortened .50 that the Desert
> Eagle of that caliber fires, are you?
Wasn't the bad guy in "Hard Target" carrying a single shot .50 pistol? A
pistol that fired HMG rounds? Also, there is the single shot,
berak-action pistol Mad Dog uses at one point towards the end of "Hard
Boiled", I don't kow the caliber, but it looked big, and I know that John
Woo liked to use real-world guns in his films.
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
A train station is where trains stop. A bus station is where buses stop.
Well, I'm at a workstation.
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #162
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