Digest Archives Vol 1 Issue 164
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 7:12 AM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #164
champ-l-digest Wednesday, January 27 1999 Volume 01 : Number 164
In this issue:
[Re: How much damage should guns do.]
Re: Levels and Limitations
Re: Limitations on Multipowers
RE: How much damage should guns do.
AP, Penetrating, Piercing
Re: A painful question
Re: A painful question
Re: [Gun Damage]
Re: A painful question
Re: How much damage should guns do.
Re: Character: Frodo Baggins
RE: How much damage should puns do.
Re: AP, Penetrating, Piercing
Re: Levels and Limitations (Oh, Mr. Long!)
Re: Character: Frodo Baggins
Re: A painful question
Re: Character: Frodo Baggins
Re: Character: Frodo Baggins
Re: A painful question
Character: Galadriel
Re: Multipower Questions
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 26 Jan 99 16:01:44 MST
From: ANTHONY VARGAS <anthony.vargas@usa.net>
Subject: [Re: How much damage should guns do.]
> AV> Then there must have been an epidemic of broken wrists in the 80's
> AV> when silhouette shooting was so popular. Those pistols were
> AV> chambered for all manner of rifle rounds.
(sorry if that sounded snooty...)
> Two things. One, they fire underpowered versions of the same cartridge.
Well, I know that competitors would 'firewall' thier ammo - put in
as much powder as the shell would hold, and that the earlier ones
were made by remounting a rifle action. So, I doubt that's true of all
of them. They did use different loads in that they had to use the
faster-burning type of powder normally used in pistols, because of the
shorter barrel.
> Two, the weapons themselves are much larger and heaver than the regular
> crop of handguns, and are loaded with all sorts of recoil compensation
> gimmicks.
Yes, very true. Some of them were downright outlandish looking, and
quite heavy compared to a normal pistol, not the kind of thing you'd
put in a shoulder holster. Competitors also used odd firing stances -
like lying on your back... guess that counts as braced or something.
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 07:25:02 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Levels and Limitations
>At 07:24 AM 1/25/99 -0800, Wayne Shaw wrote:
>>
>>>> This would be fine except for the fact that the limitation is not
>>>>at all limiting. Those levels are already only with the blaster rifle,
>>>>taking a focus lim that says they work only with the blaster rifle is just
>>>>free points.
>>>
>>> If the weapon is taken away and used by someone else, the Level(s)
>>>bought through the Focus would go with it. Otherwise the owning character
>>>keeps it.
>>
>>I think Rat's point is as follows:
>>
>> If the levels only apply to the rifle, if the rifle is taken away he can't
>>use the levels anyway, as in a game that monitors points for equipment,
>>chances are he won't have another available. At that point, putting them on
>>the rifle is more limiting than having them himself in what fashion?
>
> If you read the paragraph you responded to carefully, I think you'll
>find the answer to your question right there. :-]
> If you still have trouble seeing it, even with the explanations others
>have given (and sometimes it legitimately is hard to notice the obvious,
>even for perfectly intelligent people), just say so and I'll take the time
>to spell it out for you plainly. :-]
If you're refering to the fact that if the Focus is Universal the levels
could be used by someone else, I don't consider that significant.
Especially given that there is nothing requiring that Foci be Universal.
That says, to me, that the assumptions of the game are that the big
limitingfactor is 'take away from user' not 'used by others'. And in
practice, taking the gun away will make the levels mostly useless most of
the time anyway.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 07:33:40 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Limitations on Multipowers
>On Mon, 25 Jan 1999 07:58:01 -0800 (PST), Wayne Shaw wrote:
>
>>><<If you put the OAF on the pool, you don't have to buy it again for the
>>>slots, but the -1 modifier will still apply.>>
>>>
>>>So, what you're saying is, that if you put the OAF limitation on the pool,
>>>you don't buy the limitation again for each slot?
>>
>>In practice, yes. It's already assumed the whole Multipower is an OAF.
>>There's been some debate in the past how multipowers _composed_ of entirely
>>OAFs should normally be priced, since they're harder to take out than a
>>single OAF would be.
>
>My take on this is that the MP only gets the OAF if it's the same OAF.
>This goes for some other limitations, too. Anyway, if it isn't the same
>OAF, what are the powers doing in the same MP?
It's a common construct for buying things like arsenals of weapons and
utility belts. I've also occasionally seen cases of people with multipowers
where one slot is a focus because it's _literally_ a focus in this case (as
an example, in my last campaign, one of the characters was a telepath who
learned psionic technology as the campaign progressed. She had one slot of
her multipower that took her telepathic powers and transduced them into a
telekinetic force blast).
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:55:31 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: RE: How much damage should guns do.
At 07:04 AM 1/26/1999 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 04:31 PM 1/25/99 -0800, Ell Egyptoid wrote:
>>> >I got your muzzle velocity right here.
>>> Oh, is that where it went? Can I have it back? Thanks.
>>You guys should've muzzled this part of the thread :)
>
> Hey, the only Muzzle I know is a psychotic rottweiler....
> [Waits to see who recognizes the reference, if any....]
Road Rovers. Duh. Give us a hard one, Bob. :)
Damon
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:39:28 -0800
From: Jay P Hailey <jayphailey@juno.com>
Subject: AP, Penetrating, Piercing
>>something like the old Piercing advantage from Champions III.
How does this work,as opposed to AP or Penetrating?
Jay P. Hailey <Meow!>
Famous Last Words: "Trust me, I know what I'm doing."
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:24:30 -0800
From: Jay P Hailey <jayphailey@juno.com>
Subject: Re: A painful question
>It's not just that coming up with them is hard; it's that it
>encourages excesses of high-maintainence disads like Hunteds and DNPCs
(not high
>for the players...high for the GM). As a GM, I _really_ don't need to
>keep up with 12 Hunteds and 9 DNPCs for a six character group.
A> Establish "Campaign hunteds" a list of folks who are available
generically for hunteds
B>If the Player comes up with a good idea for bad guys in his hunteds,
then steal 'em. If they are too generic, then merge 'em into one of the
"Campaign hunteds" above.
I do stuff like that.
Jay P. Hailey <Meow!>
God was my co-pilot, but we crashed into the mountains and I had to eat
him.
___________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:03:15 -0800
From: Jay P Hailey <jayphailey@juno.com>
Subject: Re: A painful question
>Milage varies on this. Personally I like this: I have a relatively
>hard time coming up with 150 points of disads, and often the last 50 pts
or so
>are 'stretchers.' But I have friends who find it easy to come up with
the
>full 150 pts of disads and more.
>
>Erol K. Bayburt
>Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow
Do the players actually *play* the disads or just throw them on the
character sheet, and if the GM fails to enforce it, that's his lookout. I
have seen this done both ways, and taking disads because you know the GM
won't pay enough attention to hold your feet to the fire is not the kind
of game I like to play in.
Jay P. Hailey <Meow!>
Famous Last Words: "Trust me, I know what I'm doing."
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
------------------------------
Date: 26 Jan 99 17:12:01 MST
From: ANTHONY VARGAS <anthony.vargas@usa.net>
Subject: Re: [Gun Damage]
> Second, I have always wondered about gun damage. I run a sci fi rpg (2300
> AD) using Hero rules. Now BTRC's "More Guns" supplement has lots of guns
> for Hero, but I am still stuck.
> To get realistic damage for something like a plasma rifle or laser rifle, I
> had them doing damage listed for a 120mm cannon in DI.
> Is there a fix for this?
It depends on what you mean by 'realistic,' since those weapons don't
exist... If you visualsize a plasma rifle as vaporizing people it
hits like a phaser on Star Trek, you'd have to give it an awful lot
of Killing Dice (with no STN multiple, of course - who will ever take
stun from it? ;) nevermind), maybe 8-10. If you want it to be realistic
in the sense of an anti-personel weapon that people might actually
design and use, then you'd want a weapon that does enough damage to
penetrate common defenses and severely wound or kill, or at least 'stop'
(Stun?) the enemy, but, which has a reasonable number of shots, isn't
too heavy or dangerous to the person firing it, and won't punch holes
in the outer hull of your starship when you're repelling boarders...
If soldiers in the setting typically wear DEF 16 powered armor, then
a realistic Plasma Rifle might be a 18d EB, and a Laser Rifle a 4d,
double-AP Killing Attack. If armor has been abandoned in the setting
(and the vast majority of potential targets have EDs in the 2-4 range),
the same weapons might be a 12d EB (with no 'Beam' limitation, so you
can 'hose down' several hexes) and a 2.5d RKAe w/No Range Mod (to get
in that all-important first shot from a distance), respectively. If the
typical defense is a suit of ablative 'Caloric Armor' (bought as a huge
chunk of extra BOD & STN through a focus), then the Plasma Rifle might be
a 4d RKA w/Reduced Penetration, and the Laser a 2d RKAe w/Autofire and +3
OCV (to represent a continuous beam), both designed to 'burn through' the
defender's armor with multiple hits. If warriors carry impenetrable
'Force Shields' (Missle Deflection w/+4 OCV, or +4 DCV when passively
employed), then the Plasma Gun might be a 2.5d RKAe Hex Affect (engulfing
victims in spite of thier 'Shields) and the Laser Rilfe a 2.5d RKAe with
a +4 OCV 'targeting computer'.
heheh that was kinda fun...
____________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:44:18 -0800
From: Tracy L Birdine <hawk291@juno.com>
Subject: Re: A painful question
On Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:03:15 -0800 Jay P Hailey <jayphailey@juno.com>
writes:
>>Milage varies on this. Personally I like this: I have a relatively
>>hard time coming up with 150 points of disads, and often the last 50
>pts or so
>>are 'stretchers.' But I have friends who find it easy to come up with
>the
>>full 150 pts of disads and more.
>>
>>Erol K. Bayburt
>>Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow
>
>Do the players actually *play* the disads or just throw them on the
>character sheet, and if the GM fails to enforce it, that's his
>lookout. I have seen this done both ways, and taking disads because
>you know the GM won't pay enough attention to hold your feet to the
>fire is not the kind of game I like to play in.
>
>Jay P. Hailey <Meow!>
>
>Famous Last Words: "Trust me, I know what I'm doing."
Amen to that. I am always careful to coose character disads in that they
must go with the character concept. If that means taking a major disad,
then I expect the GM to take full advantage of that. I approach
character generation from a writer's POV as opposed to creating one just
to play in a game. That means fully fleshed out BGs which provide plenty
of ammo for good shrewd GMs
|- /\ \\/ |<
If it bites, bite back!
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:59:13 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: How much damage should guns do.
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
>Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin writes:
>> Okay, I think I admitted my ignorance -- certainly hinted at it -- when I
>> joined this thread. I'm willing to be educated here, but as there are
>> already people complaining about where this thread is going, I'll try to
>> make my remaining comments and questions brief:
>>
>> * For me, this is less a matter of overhauling the listed damage ratings
of
>> all the weapons in Hero System (way too much trouble for me) and more a
>> matter of understanding what went into calculating those ratings in the
>> first place -- assuming real-world physics played any part in those
>> calculations.
>
>Unlikely that it did. I think it was more a case of 'weapon X is more
powerful
>than weapon Y, so we'll make it do more damage'.
Actually, there was physics involved, I'm sure. There was a book produced
once called "The Armory" which contained the stats for hundreds of
real-world guns. Not only did it carry the HERO stats, but also real-world
characteristics, including muzzle energy. Hero Games stats matched the
Armory precisely in virtually all cases, and a moderately thorough check of
DCs vs muzzle energy showed that the Armory stats _were_ entirely calculated
by muzzle energy, and assumed that doubling muzzle energy added one DC.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:23:09 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Character: Frodo Baggins
At 05:06 PM 1/26/99 -0500, Scott Nolan wrote:
>FRODO OF THE NINE-FINGERS, RING-BEARER
I've been mostly staying out of these discussions, since my most recent
memories of Tolkien's books are older than some members of the list, but
something funny just occurred to me:
After the events in the book -- specifically, those which led to the
first of the two nicknames given above -- Frodo could never get by on the
Los Angeles freeway system. ;-]
We now return you to your regularly scheduled scholarly discussion....
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:24:12 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: How much damage should puns do.
At 05:55 PM 1/26/99 -0600, Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin wrote:
>At 07:04 AM 1/26/1999 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>At 04:31 PM 1/25/99 -0800, Ell Egyptoid wrote:
>>>> >I got your muzzle velocity right here.
>>>> Oh, is that where it went? Can I have it back? Thanks.
>>>You guys should've muzzled this part of the thread :)
>>
>> Hey, the only Muzzle I know is a psychotic rottweiler....
>> [Waits to see who recognizes the reference, if any....]
>
>Road Rovers. Duh. Give us a hard one, Bob. :)
Yeah, well, I notice you're the only one to respond (or, at least, the
first one I've seen in 10 hours since I wrote the above...).
- ---
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:24:12 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: AP, Penetrating, Piercing
>>>something like the old Piercing advantage from Champions III.
>
>How does this work,as opposed to AP or Penetrating?
I liked Piercing. What it did is you bought points of Piercing (2 points
for each 1 piercing for normal attacks and 3 points for each 1 of killing,
if I recall correctly). Each point of Piercing ignored one point of the
appropriate defense. It was an odd power but it worked well for some
powers, and it was fun to use. Im not sure it was all that cost effective,
but on certain powers like Drain, it was hideous (just how much powerf
defense do YOU buy?)
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:03:00 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Levels and Limitations (Oh, Mr. Long!)
At 07:25 AM 1/26/99 -0800, Wayne Shaw wrote:
>If you're refering to the fact that if the Focus is Universal the levels
>could be used by someone else, I don't consider that significant.
>Especially given that there is nothing requiring that Foci be Universal.
>That says, to me, that the assumptions of the game are that the big
>limitingfactor is 'take away from user' not 'used by others'. And in
>practice, taking the gun away will make the levels mostly useless most of
>the time anyway.
OK, so the villain takes the gun away from the hero, and this includes
the +3 OCV built into the gun.... and *that* isn't significant?
Mind you, I can see the 5 pt CSLs with a Limitation for "Only With
Weapon" as well as OAF (net cost 5 pts), but is it really *that* damaging
to let it be three 2 pt CSLs with just the OAF (net cost 3 pts)?
Would you really deny the above hero the cost break of 2 lousy points
(or 3 pts, compared to 2 pt CSLs bought straight) when the special effects
would call for the above situation? I mean, it's not like it was an extra
Limitation on the whole bloomin' Power here.
Very rarely do I see an OAF weapon in a Personal Focus, and almost never
with OCV bonuses. The only exception was a high-tech gun that used
"fingerprint ID," and even then it was used against him (indirectly -- I
don't even remember exactly how that went down).
From here, I think we can take a look at how a 2 point CSL actaually
works, specifically in relation to weapons. I suspect that there'll be
some debate on the matter, but here's my tuppence.
"Any single attack" is a little broader IMV than "one specific weapon."
If a character in a police game gets +1 OCV with his Browning 9mm, then
that should only cost 2 points. For +1 OCV with pistols in general, after
all, he'd spend 3 points. But if he loses his usual Browning 9mm and picks
up another, then he still can use the +1 OCV.
Now suppose this same cop gets a gyroscopic stabilizer for his Browning,
and attaches it. (Don't worry about realism for this one, folks. I'm just
going on flights of fancy to illustrate a point.) The stabilizer gives the
gun a +2 OCV, in addition to his intrinsic +1. But he can't use that +2
OCV with any other Browning 9mm, because it's built into his one gun. By
the same token, anyone who picks up the modified Browning (even without WF:
Small Arms) gets that +2 when they use it.
Okay, fine; that's good for standard-issue weapons. But what about
unique weapons, such as those found in most superhero and many fantasy
campaigns?
I'll set aside concerns specific to fantasy games, since it's fairly
rare for fantasy characters to have to pay points for their equipment or
have to deal with things like equipment allotments. Those that do can
generally either use the principles above for heroic modern/future games
(where equipment allotments are common), or those below for superhero games
(where characters pay full point cost). I'm not familiar enough with
fantasy games to know if there are any other ways of doing things.
The real concern, I think, is over the character like the one above, who
wants to have a weapon in Personal Focus that gives him Combat Skill
Levels. In this case, it would appear to be an identical case whether OAF
is applied to the CSLs or not: the weapon can be taken away but not used
against the character, so with or without the Limitation the CSLs can't be
used against him.
But then... aren't there some rules for Focus Powers Loss in the HSR?
Yes, if so much as 1 BODY gets through the defenses, the weapon loses the
Power with the largest Active Point total -- which, of course, is the main
attack itself, which still renders the CSLs equally useless whether with or
without the Focus Limitation. So that leaves us right where we started.
Mostly, the problem will lie in the "little things." For one thing, I'm
prone to assigning an Active Point penalty for Weaponsmith, and these
built-in CSLs can make a difference in that. The same effect can be seen
when dealing with Requires a Skill Roll -- those CSLs might count for the
character in OCV, but against him for that RSR.
I might also require a penalty for restoring a broken weapon's built-in
CSLs when using Weaponsmith to repair a damaged weapon (though I'd like
feedback from the list on that one).
(I've also been ruminating on a "Weapon Damage System" for TUG that will
allow a weapon with built-in CSLs to take damage to just that, or partially
to that and partially to its damage, for those extremely detailed games.)
Now, I'll grant that these are small problems that will come up only
occasionally in a game, if at all. But remember how big, really, the bonus
is in terms of points the character actually saves. Compare it to how
helpful a Power or Skill of the same cost would be in a game. How often,
really, does a PC's ability to speak fluent Japanese save the day? Are
those 3 or 4 points worth the same as the above-described inconvenience,
which would provide a character with a savings of about the same amount?
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:21:11 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Character: Frodo Baggins
At 05:23 PM 1/26/99 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 05:06 PM 1/26/99 -0500, Scott Nolan wrote:
>>FRODO OF THE NINE-FINGERS, RING-BEARER
>
> I've been mostly staying out of these discussions, since my most recent
>memories of Tolkien's books are older than some members of the list, but
>something funny just occurred to me:
> After the events in the book -- specifically, those which led to the
>first of the two nicknames given above -- Frodo could never get by on the
>Los Angeles freeway system. ;-]
> We now return you to your regularly scheduled scholarly discussion....
Oh, sure. He could drive with his right and signal with his left. Of course,
he'd need some phone books to see over the wheel.
Scott, whose edition was published in 1973, when he was nine years old.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"It yearns me not if men my garments wear;
Such outward things dwell not in my desire:
But if it be a sin to covet honour,
I am the most offending soul alive."
William Shakespeare, Henry V
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scott C. Nolan
nolan@erols.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:27:26 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: A painful question
>>Milage varies on this. Personally I like this: I have a relatively
>>hard time coming up with 150 points of disads, and often the last 50 pts
>or so
>>are 'stretchers.' But I have friends who find it easy to come up with
>the
>>full 150 pts of disads and more.
>>
>>Erol K. Bayburt
>>Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow
>
>Do the players actually *play* the disads or just throw them on the
>character sheet, and if the GM fails to enforce it, that's his lookout. I
>have seen this done both ways, and taking disads because you know the GM
>won't pay enough attention to hold your feet to the fire is not the kind
>of game I like to play in.
I have found that any amount over 100 in disads is generally difficult in
many conceptions. Some, you end up with oh, 200 or more and just have fun,
but most you have to really reach and contrive to get those disads, which
to me isnt very appropriate or fun. I max the disads at 100 unless the
power level is over 250 total.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:37:08 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Hayden <mhayden@tsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Character: Frodo Baggins
On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> After the events in the book -- specifically, those which led to the
> first of the two nicknames given above -- Frodo could never get by on the
> Los Angeles freeway system. ;-]
Uhh, wrong finger. ;)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Michael D. Hayden -- mhayden@silverhammer.org -- http://silverhammer.org/
Hey, I use Procmail with Spam Bouncer, so spam away! (^_^)
"What you are about to see is real. These are not actors; they're directors."
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 04:08:35 GMT
From: samael@clark.net (Acid Rainbow)
Subject: Re: Character: Frodo Baggins
On Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:23:09 -0800, Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
sent these symbols into the net:
>At 05:06 PM 1/26/99 -0500, Scott Nolan wrote:
>>FRODO OF THE NINE-FINGERS, RING-BEARER
>
> I've been mostly staying out of these discussions, since my most recent
>memories of Tolkien's books are older than some members of the list, but
>something funny just occurred to me:
> After the events in the book -- specifically, those which led to the
>first of the two nicknames given above -- Frodo could never get by on the
>Los Angeles freeway system. ;-]
> We now return you to your regularly scheduled scholarly discussion....
Oh? I would have thunk that since Frodo lost his ring finger he wouldn't
have a problem.
OBHero: IIRC, hobbits/halflings get a bonus with ranged combat/missile
weapons. I don't remember any reference to this with Frodo.
**********************************************************************
*Lissajous patterns and windmills and don't ask about the connection.*
* Acid Rainbow: Semi-professional windmill-tilter. *
**********************************************************************
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:51:31 -0800
From: Scott Bennie <sbennie@dowco.com>
Subject: Re: A painful question
Just want to thank everyone who's responded to this thread - with a
remarkably low level of flames for such a touchy subject.
You've helped crystalize a few thoughts that'll be in the introductory
section of Gestalt (in a section tentatively called "Underlying
Assumptions"). And maybe one day I'll try to write a more general article on
the subject.
Scott Bennie
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 04:19:11 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: Character: Galadriel
GALADRIEL, THE LADY OF THE WOOD
13 STR 3
16 DEX 18
13/28 CON 6
13 BODY 6
22 INT 12
35 EGO 50
35 PRE 25
24 COM 7
5 PD 2
5 ED 2
5 SPD 24
11 REC 10
56 END 15
45 STUN 18
Characteristics Cost: 198
6 Life Support,immune to disease,immune to aging
6 +2 Enhanced Perception,with all senses
10 Eidetic Memory
5 Ultraviolet Vision
3 Ultrasonic Hearing
4 +2" Running
20 Clairsentience,see future,No Conscious Control,0 END
75 15D6 Telepathy,Only to know other's desire,0 END
4 WF,Common Melee,Common Missile
6 2 Levels: Swords,tight group
30 3 Levels,all skills (represented below in parentheses)
3 Conversation 16- (19-)
11 Deduction 17- (20-)
7 High Society 18 - (21-)
9 Oratory 19 (22-)
3 Paramedic 13 (16-)
5 Persuasion 17- (20-)
3 Riding 12- (15-)
3 Tactics 13 (16-)
3 Linguist
1 Lang: Quenya,native,literacy
3 Lang: Sindarin,native accent,literacy
2 Lang: Adunaic,fluent w/accent,literacy
2 Lang: Westron,fluent w/accent,literacy
3 Scholar
7 KS: Eldar History 18- (21-)
4 KS: History of MiddleEarth 15- (18-)
9 KS: Councils of the Wise 20- (23-)
8 KS: Minions and Powers of Sauron 19 (22-)
5 KS: Items of Power 16 (19-)
3 Traveler
4 AK: Lorien 15- (18-)
4 AK: Eregion 15- (18-)
4 AK: Dol Amroth 15- (18-)
4 AK: Doriath 15- (18-)
2 AK: Gondor 13- (16-)
2 AK: Eriador 13- (16-)
2 AK: Rhovanion 13- (16-)
2 AK: Beleriand 13- (16-)
3 Well-Connected
11 21- Contact: Celeborn
4 14- Contact: Elrond
3 13- Contact: Thranduil
3 13- Contact: Cirdan
3 13- Contact: Gandalf
2 12- Contact: Radagast
1 8- Contact: Fangorn
15 Money,filthy rich
140 Variable Power Pool (100 - point pool), no skill roll required,
Non-Flashy Spells Only, Extra Time (1 turn)
185 Package,"The Mirror of Galadriel", OAF, bulky
(115) Clairsentience, see future, see past, x2^30 Increased Range,
Can give fleeting, misleading information,0 END
(70) 15D6 Mental Illusions, Only to Hide Mirror, 0 END Persistent,
Area Effect, any area, Personal Immunity
425 Package,"Nenya The Ring of Water", IIF, 0 END Persistent
(108) 10D6 Aid,"To VPP", Use Risks Drawing Sauron's Attention,
Extra Time (1 turn), Non-Flashy Spells Only, Continuous,
Uncontrolled
(48) 3 BODY Regeneration
(96) 6D6 Healing
(11) Life Support: Immune to Aging, Only to Create Unchanging
Nature of Place, Area Effect,any area, x1M Increased Area,
Limited to Wearer's Home
(183) Invisibility, no fringe, to Detect and Mental Group,
Area Effect, any area, x1M Increased Area, Limited to
Wearer's Home
(27) +15 Constitution, doesn't add to figured, Only to avoid being
stunned
Powers Cost: 1130
Total Cost: 1328
Base Points: 75
20 Distinctive Features,"Noldo Lord",concealable,extreme
10 Watched,"Sauron",more powerful,noncombat influence,harsh,
appear 8-
5 Watched,"The Wise",as powerful,noncombat influence,mild,
appear 8-
5 Watched,"Celeborn",as powerful,noncombat influence,mild,
appear 8-
10 Psychological Limitation,"Longs for Aman",uncommon,strong
15 Psychological Limitation,"Love of Celeborn",common,strong
15 Psychological Limitation,"Hatred of Sauron",common,strong
10 Reputation,"Powerful Noldo Lord",occur 8-, extreme reputation
15 Secret ID,"Bearer of Nenya, The Ring of Water"
1148 Really, Really Old Bonus
Disadvantages Total: 1253
Experience Spent: 0
Total Points: 1328
Galadriel is the most powerful non-maiar character in "The Lord of
the Rings." She is also one of the oldest, aside from Fangorn and
his fellow ents. Galadriel is an elf of the Noldor people, and was
born long before the First Age, during the third age of the Chaining
of Melkor. She was born in Valinor, in the holy land of Aman and
was the daughter of Finarfin, son of Finwe the high King. Although
Galadriel was counted among the Noldor, her mother Earwen was
of the Teleri, and her grandmother, Indis, was of the Vanyar.
She lived content in Aman for the untold long years until the release
of Melkor. When Melkor (whom the elves after named Morgoth)
poisoned the Two Trees and stole the great jewels, the silmarils,
Galadriel was among the forefront of those Noldor who defied the
Valar and pursued him into Middle-Earth. She was the only woman
among the leaders of the Rebellion. She broke with her father,
Finarfin, when he turned back after the Kinslaying, although she
herself took no part in that treachery.
For awhile, she dwelt with her brother Finrod on the isle of Tol Sirion,
until First Age 51 when, after the vision of Ulmo, he moved to
Nargothrond. At that time, she went to Doriath, where she met and
married Celeborn and was instructed in wisdom by the maia Melian,
wife of King Elwe. There, she bore her only child, Celebrian.
At the fall of Doriath in circa First Age 509, she fled to Arvernien
with Celeborn and Celebrian.
Galadriel was the only leader of the Rebellion to survive the Great
Battle and the First Age. After the battle, the valar refused to allow
her to return to Aman. At first, she did not wish to, but over the ages
that followed, her heart turned increasingly to the sea and Aman.
At the end of the First Age, they moved to Lindon and dwelt with Cirdan.
Some years later, they moved to Eregion and dwelt there with Celebrimbor
until the War of the Elves and Sauron brought that nation to an end.
They then returned to Lindon.
It was during her time in Eregion that the smith Celebrimbor forged
the Rings of Power at the behest of Atannar, whom he later perceived
to be Sauron. The three elven rings he kept free of Sauron's influence
and gave one to Galadriel for safekeeping. This was Nenya, the Ring
of Water, also known as the Ring of Adamant.
After the War of the Last Alliance and the start of the Third Age,
Celeborn and Galadriel took up residence in Dol Amroth at the
plea of Amroth himself, who moved to found Lorien. There they
lived for almost two thousand years until the death of Amroth in Third
Age 1981, when they took over the lordship of Lorien, leaving Dol
Amroth in the keeping of the descendants of Imrazor.
In Lorien, Galadriel set about hiding the realm, in a manner modelled on
the Girdle of Melian, which hid the ancient realm of Doriath. With the
Ring Nenya, she hid the activities of the Galadrim (the folk of Lorien)
from the eyes of Sauron and his minions. Throughout the Third Age,
she lent aid and counsel to the enemies of Sauron, especially to Gandalf.
It is said that her mind was so subtle, that few even among the Wise
perceived her actions and plans.
During the War of the Ring, Galadriel gave shelter, counsel and gifts
to the Fellowship, and refused the One Ring when offered it by
Frodo. After the War, because of her unceasing opposition to Sauron
and her support of the Free Peoples, the Valar finally lifted their ban
against her return, and she went over the sea with the Last Riding
of the Keepers of the Rings in Third Age 3021, after more than 6500
years in Middle-Earth.
Galadriel is said to be incredibly beautiful. Her hair caught and ever
after reflected the light of the Two Trees in Aman. None who meet
her ever come away unchanged, for she is a great personal force,
in ways that mortal man cannot conceive. Those who meet her are
awestruck, and speak of her in reverential tones.
Galadriel had two great gifts of insight. She could ocasionally forsee
the future, but only rarely clearly. And she could look into the hearts
of others and see their true desires. In that moment, the person into
whose heart she looked also saw those desires clearly himself, not
always a pleasant experience.
One of Galadriel's two great possessions is her mirror, which was
a gift of Melian. It is a basin filled with water which allowed her
visions of
the future, the past and distant lands more clearly and powerfully than
even the palantiri. It could also show things unexpected and unexplained.
The Mirror also was wreathed in spells so that none could find it without
her permission.
Her second great possession is Nenya, one of the three elven rings
crafted by Celebrimbor and meant by Sauron to control their wearers.
It is also known as the Ring of Water, or the Ring of Adamant, for its
powers gave life and rejuvenation to those around it. With it, she protected
first Dol Amroth and then Lorien throughout the Third Age. She never
wore it until Sauron's loss of the One Ring at the end of the Second Age.
NOTES:
1) Galadriel certainly had far more skills than this, but these are those
she demonstrates in the novel.
2) Galadriel's personal force of being is hard to capture in statistics.
She is, with Gandalf and Elrond, the driving force behind the
millennia-long opposition to Sauron, and her plans extend to
a vast number of small details and agents.
3) Galadriel certainly has many followers, which I bought under
Celeborn. They might reasonably split the costs. Also, she might
well be called a head of state, as queen of Lorien.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"It yearns me not if men my garments wear;
Such outward things dwell not in my desire:
But if it be a sin to covet honour,
I am the most offending soul alive."
William Shakespeare, Henry V
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scott C. Nolan
nolan@erols.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 06:44:58 -0500
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Multipower Questions
DVBaum@aol.com wrote:
>
> Multipower #1 is basically just a bunch of gadgets with OAF and 4 charges for
> each slot limitation. My question on that one is: Can I take the OAF(-1) and
> 4 charges(-1) limitation on the main multipower cost? I know that I can take
> the OAF limitation, but I'm not sure about the 4 charges limitation
>
> exp. 17 Multpower 50 pts., "Toy-Gadgets", OAF(-1), 4 charges each slot(-1)
4 Charges on the Reserve and on each slot would mean that the reserve
could be used only 4 times before recharging. An appropriate SFX for
this would be a multi-function blaster, powered by a clip of single-use
power cells, each good for one shot.
In this case, the Charge Limitation on the Multipower should be the 4 x
the number of slots. Thus, if the MP has four slots, the MP Reserve has
16 charges. This is a special case of the Rule of Reason as applied to
framework limitations: since the book provides that any Limitation on
the framework also applies to each individual slot, it follows that,
with limitations such as Charges that come in varying degrees, a slot
may have a more restrictive limitation than the framework, but not a
less restrictive one. One may also reason backwards from the slots to
the framework, so that the framework receives the infimum of the
Limitations.
In the case of charges, it seems clear that charges on the Reserve are
used whenever *any* power in the framework is used, while charges on
each slot are used only when that slot is used. Thus, in the following
MP,
22 50 pt Reserve OAF(-1) 16 Charges(-1/4) SFX Gadgets
2u 10D6 EB OAF(-1) 4 Charges(-1)
2u 3D6+1 RKA OAF(-1) 4 charges(-1)
2u 50 pts Darkness OAF(-1) 4 charges(-1)
1u 5D6 Flash vs Sight OAF(-1) 2 charges(-1 1/2)
1u 5D6 Flash vs Hearing OAF(-1) 2 charges(-1 1/2)
using a Sight Flash arrow will use one of the two available charges for
that slot, AND one of the 16 available charges for the Reserve. Since
the Reserve has enough charges to exhaust all the slots, this is an
appropriate representation of a quiver of 16 arrows, bag of 16 grenades,
or five different weapons each with its own set of charges.
> Mutlipower #2 is written up like this:
>
> 27 Multipower 40 pts., "Punchline", OAF(-1), 0 end(+1/2)
> 3u Energy Blast 8d6, OAF(-1), 0 End cost(+1/2)
> 3u Telekinesis 20 STR, with fine manipulation, OAF(-1), 0 End(+1/2)
> 1u Swinging 20", OAF(-1), 0 End(+1/2)
>
> My question about that one is did I write it up correctly?
IMHO, advantages never apply to a Framework. Not only is there no rule
covering it, but it is unnecessary. The reserve should be expressed as:
30 60 pt MP Reserve OAF(-1)
As for the 27 points, I don't see how you got that under any
interpretation of the rules:
40 point base; (+1/2) = 60 points active; (-1) = 30 points real.
OIC, you added the +1/2 and the -1 to get -1/2! It doesn't work that
way. You compute active points based on the base points and advantage,
then compute real points based on the active points and limitations.
Hope this helps.
Robert A. West
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #164
*****************************
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Date: Monday, May 24, 1999 03:15 PM