Digest Archives Vol 1 Issue 178
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 12:12 AM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #178
champ-l-digest Tuesday, February 2 1999 Volume 01 : Number 178
In this issue:
Re: Martial artist power
Re: Unity in Nerd Culture [was GenCon 99]
Re: Unity in Nerd Culture [was GenCon 99]
Re: Other SRPGs as source material
Re: Limitations on Multipowers
Re: GenCon 99
Re: The Necrotron
Re: GenCon 99
Re: Limitations on Multipowers
Re: Other SRPGs as source material
Re: Unity in Nerd Culture [was GenCon 99]
Re: Multipower Questions
Re: Other SRPGs as source material?
Re: The Necrotron
Re: LS and their effects on attack damage
Re: Unity in Nerd Culture [was GenCon 99]
Re: Unity in Nerd Culture [was GenCon 99]
Re: Multipower Questions
Re: Multipower Questions
Re: Limitations on Multipowers
Re: LS and their effects on attack damage
Re: LS and their effects on attack damage
Re: Other SRPGs as source material
Re: Other SRPGs as source material
Re: Unity in Nerd Culture [was GenCon 99]
Re: Unity in Nerd Culture [was GenCon 99]
Re: Unity in Nerd Culture
Re: Unity in Nerd Culture
Re: Multipower Questions
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 15:02:46 -0800
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Martial artist power
Ell Egyptoid wrote:
>
> > I am working on a Martial Artist.
> > Desolid SFX = uber-dodge.
>
> I like the idea. I have used desolid as
> a way to model various "unhittable" SFX.
> I'm not sure why people get so itchy about it.
> Just define his vulnerability as explosions, etc.
>
> I've never seen it on a Martial Artist before,
> usually on people like Plastic-Man, Elongated Man,
> etc. But I can see how it couild fit certain mystic
> martial prowesses.
I don't like it. I prefer the levels approach.
This guy with mystic prowness still can't hit nearly as
well as he can dodge. How would he build the offensive
capabilty to hit?
Area effect? Which means anybody can just dive out of the way,
irregardless of OCV. Based on special effects, he could be
blocked as well.
I guess I just don't like "absolute" characters.
- -Mark Lemming
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 14:26:52 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Unity in Nerd Culture [was GenCon 99]
>Y'know what? I've been into gaming for something like 15 years. The list is
>full of people who have been gaming in one form or another for at least that
>long. I bet I'm not alone in my observation that ours has always been a
>subculture that is, at best, misunderstood by common folk.
>
>So when you see the 14 year old kid with his prepackaged Magic deck at the
>gaming convention, don't dis him. He's one of us. He's just new.
>
>It's cool to be a purist but don't try and be a gaming snob. It never pays
>off. Personaly, I hate everything that even smells like White Wolf but if it
>brings new people into gaming, it's all good.
The problem with Magic has been that there's serious questions as to how
many people it's actually transfered into the part of the hobby that matters
to any of us, and in many areas there's no question it's been destructive in
the long run to distribution and availability of other games. This isn't
the game's fault per se, but it's still not anything that's bred any love
for it.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 18:08:30 -0600
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: Unity in Nerd Culture [was GenCon 99]
At 04:40 PM 2/1/99 -0500, Brian Wawrow wrote:
>So when you see the 14 year old kid with his prepackaged Magic deck at the
>gaming convention, don't dis him. He's one of us. He's just new.
When I walk through a hallway, and I have to play hopscotch to avoid
card-counters on the floor, I'm dissing. Frankly, this has less to do with
the Magic element than the rudeness of being a hall hog.
>It's cool to be a purist but don't try and be a gaming snob. It never pays
>off. Personaly, I hate everything that even smells like White Wolf but if
>it brings new people into gaming, it's all good.
Not if it *only* brings people into (e.g.) White Wolf gaming. "Gaming" is
not a freely exchangeable quality -- one of us (me or the new guy) has to be
capable of crossing over to the other's activity before the "him and me"
becomes an "us".
- --
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- attributed to Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 16:58:27 -0600 (Central Standard Time)
From: Tim Gilberg <gilberg@ou.edu>
Subject: Re: Other SRPGs as source material
> This is exactly what I'm looking for. I'm not really looking for rules
> that aren't covered by the Hero System, I'm just looking for examples. For
> instance, Heroes Unlimited describes a Smoke/Mist Control power and then
> lists several things you could do with that (obscure an area, choke
> someone, etc). In Hero terms, this would be an Elemental Control, with
> Darkness and NND as slots. The HU book just gave me some ideas in the
Er--reminds me of a bad memory.
I got into an *extended* argument with a fanatic of the Marvel
Super Heroes rules who insisted that system was better than hero because
it gave things like suffocation for mist form by default. When I
pointed out that this was perfectly doable in Champs, she said that it was
a failing because it wasn't automatic--a character couldn't do things that
he/she hadn't bought specifically and therefore the system was bad.
Ug.
-Tim Gilberg
-"English Majors of the World! Untie!"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 15:32:43 -0800
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Limitations on Multipowers
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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>
> "WS" == Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com> writes:
>
> WS> Not really, Rat; since an Energy Blast can be spread across a hex for a
> WS> whole loss of one die,
>
> Not quite. An EB can be spread to hit multiple targets, one die per hex in
> a straight line, but it does not fill the Hex the way AoE: Hex does. It is
> still considered to be a single target attack, and an attack roll must be
> made for each target. In the end, it works more like Autofire than AoE.
>
> Given that, if you want to blast 7 Focuses (the BBB's pluralization, go
> fig) with a single EB, I would require that you spend 6 dice for the
> additional targets. Go ahead and roll 13 Body on 6D6 worth of EB; now do
> it 7 times. :)
I would say you're wrong on this one Rat.
You lose 1d6 per hex you fill. An EB that is spread one die is exactly
like an AoE: Hex; selective. He'd have to roll to hit each focus.
- -Mark Lemming
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 18:04:05 -0600
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@home.com>
Subject: Re: GenCon 99
Leah L Watts wrote:
>
> Thanks for the warning -- a friend of mine and I were thinking about
> going to GenCon, but she's severely hearing-impaired. No sense in
> shelling out for plane tickets, hotel and con membership if she won't be
> able to play. (She does lip-read, but trying to get everyone at the
> table to look directly at her when they talk could be tricky.)
I wouldn't cancel your trip based on the above. Last year was the first
year for the new people running it AND the in the new convention center
(which if I remember right, they had finished building DAYS before the
convention - GenCon was the first event held in it). Im sure that they will
have learned from last year's mistakes and will have handled this problem.
Besides, it was only noisy during the 'official' gaming times. We actually
played more games there after hours than we did during 'official' gaming
times, and there was no problem with noise. (they keep the gaming rooms
available all night now, which is nice. You can squeeze in some games with
new friends that you meet there)
Todd
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 15:12:53 -0800
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: The Necrotron
Brian Wawrow wrote:
> I've considered running the zombie stew with a variety of mechanics. A STR 5
> grab run like suppression fire would probably be the most realistic but
> might be too cumbersome to run. The easiest way might be to have everyone
> make a STR roll before every half move and then, if they fail it, deny
> movement and lay the grab. Likewise, I could use an area effect TK that
> pushes [pulls] living things down.
I think the easiest would be the strength roll each phase. For every point
they make it by they can struggle forward 1". If they miss it by 2 or 3,
maybe they get pulled under and then have to make another roll to surface
again. I'd allow others to help people back up. I would just use regular
drowning rules. Should make it scary enough. Note: I would set the miss and
get pulled under so that it only happens to the average hero on a 15+. Makes
it easier for the stronger characters to help the weaker ones.
I assume the heroes can shoot the flaming skulls as well?
- -Mark Lemming
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 16:52:27 -0600 (Central Standard Time)
From: Tim Gilberg <gilberg@ou.edu>
Subject: Re: GenCon 99
> >Why is this an important thing?
>
> Because it is a cancer upon the face of gaming?
About my take on it.
Look, I know that CCGs have brought in a lot of new money, in some
ways they have been benifical to gaming. I've also seen the ruin left in
their wake--campaigns broken apart, entire gaming communities torn
asunder. And the damage to the conventions was the worst. Gencon just
wasn't Gencon in that first big magic year--you couldn't walk without
tripping over someone's card case--and that always led to yelling.
(Unlike the past, where you'd always be tripping over someone's pile of
books--which also led to yelling.) Also, the selection of games
plummeted--too many people doing Magic instead. It also played out at
other smaller cons--Magic, and the other card games, became the focus. Us
RPGers were pushed to the side.
I know we can't really fight it. My major reaction has always
been to wonder whether or not the Wargamers felt the same way when RPGs
first hit it big.
-Tim Gilberg
-"English Majors of the World! Untie!"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 14:43:47 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Limitations on Multipowers
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>"WS" == Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com> writes:
>
>WS> Not really, Rat; since an Energy Blast can be spread across a hex for a
>WS> whole loss of one die,
>
>Not quite. An EB can be spread to hit multiple targets, one die per hex in
>a straight line, but it does not fill the Hex the way AoE: Hex does. It is
>still considered to be a single target attack, and an attack roll must be
>made for each target. In the end, it works more like Autofire than AoE.
True, but the point is that if you have a whole lot of targets in that
hex...like all those foci...it makes it a comparitively easily accessible
way to shoot at all them at once.
>
>Given that, if you want to blast 7 Focuses (the BBB's pluralization, go
>fig) with a single EB, I would require that you spend 6 dice for the
>additional targets. Go ahead and roll 13 Body on 6D6 worth of EB; now do
>it 7 times. :)
That might be how you'd do it, but it's not what the rules say. Far as I
can tell, you spend that one die, you can shoot at every target within that
one hex. You'll have to make a seperate die roll for each, of course, but
if you expected to hit one of them, you'll probably hit several. And
remember, I don't think the slots would have that 13 Body; since they're
only slots, they probably run to needing somewhere from 2-3 Body damage per
slot.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 19:45:31 -0500 (EST)
From: arcus@webtv.net (chrisopher spoor)
Subject: Re: Other SRPGs as source material
V&V has been redone on the net under the name L&L. can't find the
address tonight
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 17:04:36 -0600 (Central Standard Time)
From: Tim Gilberg <gilberg@ou.edu>
Subject: Re: Unity in Nerd Culture [was GenCon 99]
> Y'know what? I've been into gaming for something like 15 years. The list is
> full of people who have been gaming in one form or another for at least that
> long. I bet I'm not alone in my observation that ours has always been a
> subculture that is, at best, misunderstood by common folk.
Agreed, but...
> So when you see the 14 year old kid with his prepackaged Magic deck at the
> gaming convention, don't dis him. He's one of us. He's just new.
But what about those that never get beyond Magic? I was just
dragging around some D&D books at that age, but I moved beyond--however,
roleplaying and card playing are quite different. By roleplaying, I
realized how much more I could do when unencumbered by the (terrible) D&D
rules. When card playing, that player may realize how much more he can do
by spending $50 on that kick-ass rare super-power-ultra card.
Anyway, it's not the kids that bother me. It's the older gamers
that were very much into the roleplaying scene, playing in a campaign or
two, that abandoned such to play Magic. Or, just as bad, showed up at the
campaign with the cards to play side games with each other.
> It's cool to be a purist but don't try and be a gaming snob. It never pays
> off. Personaly, I hate everything that even smells like White Wolf but if it
> brings new people into gaming, it's all good.
Actually, I got into White Wolf well after Champions. It can make
for a good game, if the GM is good. Of course, that's true for any game.
-Tim Gilberg
-"English Majors of the World! Untie!"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:51:58 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Multipower Questions
From: Jesse Thomas <haerandir@hotmail.com>
<snip>
>
>I think that, basically, the inability to see eye-to-eye here is arising
>from different approaches to the same problem. Some people take a
>bottom-up view: If all the slots have the same limitation written after
>them, then the limitation applies to the whole multipower. I disagree.
>I take the top-down view: If the limitation applies to the whole
>multipower, then it applies to all the slots.
Agreed, we have a different paradigm for the problem. I would probably agree
with your paradigm, as probably being the better one, save that the rules
stated it the other way around. The rules specifically state that if the
Limitation is applied to all slots, then the reduced cost can be applied to
the Multipower pool; not if applied to the pool, it reduces the cost of all
slots.
>Thus, if the multipower
>doesn't work in the rain, has 4 charges, or is a Focus, then the slots
>also get the benefit of the limitation. These are the "freebies", and I
>have no problem with them, 'cause the rules say they're OK.
Essentially I agree here as well. I read the rules as stating that
Limitations that apply to all slots reduce the cost of the Multipower pool.
If the rules stated it the other way around, I'd go with that. In fact, I
agree it would probably be better, and should probably be presented to Steve
Long as a recommended rules change/clarification.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 15:27:34 PST
From: "Jesse Thomas" <haerandir@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Other SRPGs as source material?
On Sun, 31 Jan 1999 David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> wrote:
>
>The two games that have had me wondering are GURPS Supers and Heroes
>Unlimited 2nd Edition. I don't care how good or bad the rules system
is (I
>understand that Palladium (HU2E) really sucks), I'm just looking for
>sources for some fresh ideas. I own the 1st editions of both Marvel
Palladium does suck. However, roughly 75% of the HU 2ed. book is
information on random character generation and powers. I use it as a
random character concept generator for Champions, and I know others who
do likewise.
This weekend I rolled up (in HU) a mutant who was Double-jointed,
Ambidextrous, had a heightened sense of smell and had a bunch of
light-based powers. I wrote him up in 2 different versions: 1 400-pt
version that included everything that was available under the HU system,
and 1 250-pt version with a slightly tighter concept. I'm really
pleased with him, especially since I had to get pretty creative to
emulate some of the HU stuff in Champions. F'rinstance, I came up with:
2 levels of Shrinking, no growth momentum (-1/4), no mass change (-1/4),
Concentrate, 0DCV (-1/2). This is meant to simulate the contortionist's
ability to squeeze into/through small spaces that would ordinarily be
too small for a human. Of course, he doesn't get any smaller, he just
dislocates joints and puts his knees behind his head and stuff. He
can't move very fast, and he certainly can't dodge, thus the Concentrate
limitation.
It's unlikely that I would have thought of that on my own. All in all,
worth a look.
Jesse Thomas
haerandir@hotmail.com
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 14:15:06 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: The Necrotron
At 01:49 PM 2/1/99 -0500, Brian Wawrow wrote:
[snip preface]
>I've considered running the zombie stew with a variety of mechanics. A STR 5
>grab run like suppression fire would probably be the most realistic but
>might be too cumbersome to run. The easiest way might be to have everyone
>make a STR roll before every half move and then, if they fail it, deny
>movement and lay the grab. Likewise, I could use an area effect TK that
>pushes [pulls] living things down.
>
>Any opinions on this would be appreciated. If you've run an effect like this
>before, let me know how it went. I'm hoping to instill a sense of panic but
>I'm afraid it might just get tedious.
I've never run anything like this (it sounds wonderfully evil), but I
think that your last idea is probably the way to go. Make it Area Effect
with Selective Targeting (presumably the Nectrotron would be able to have
the body parts grab at just its enemies while leaving its minions alone).
It's reasonably realistic in that it covers the basic effect nicely, and at
the same time fairly simple to run.
At play time, though, run it as something similar to your second
suggestion: if they fail STR vs STR against the TK, they cannot advance.
If they fail a second consecutive STR vs STR, they are brought to their
knees. After the third lost roll in a row, they start being choked until
they can escape, and they must escape from each of these in turn (first the
choking, then the holding down, and then the basic grab) before they can
get moving again.
It sounds cumbersome, but I think it'll play out quickly and instill a
sense of horror, especially if an NPC gets killed along the way.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 16:41:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: LS and their effects on attack damage
Tim Gilberg writes:
>
> As long as it is purchased in the way you state or some way
> similar. If it doesn't exclude LS: Radiation from the damage in some way,
> then technically, by the book, the character would take the damage. Is
> this wrong? Sure. But some GMs tend to be way to literal on rules.
Shrug. If the power was purchased such that LS:Radiation doesn't protect,
LS:Radiation doesn't protect. This is a flaw in the writeup, not a flaw in the
rules.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 17:16:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Bryant Durrell <durrell@innocence.com>
Subject: Re: Unity in Nerd Culture [was GenCon 99]
Bryant Berggren writes:
> >It's cool to be a purist but don't try and be a gaming snob. It never pays
> >off. Personaly, I hate everything that even smells like White Wolf but if
> >it brings new people into gaming, it's all good.
>
> Not if it *only* brings people into (e.g.) White Wolf gaming. "Gaming" is
> not a freely exchangeable quality -- one of us (me or the new guy) has to be
> capable of crossing over to the other's activity before the "him and me"
> becomes an "us".
Actually, I think it's a good for the hobby even if the person
in question never plays something I like; if nothing else, he'll
help keep my local gaming store open, and he'll help keep the
distributors in business, and so on.
- --
Bryant Durrell [] durrell@innocence.com [] http://www.innocence.com/~durrell
[----------------------------------------------------------------------------]
POSITIVE, adj. Mistaken at the top of one's voice. -- Ambrose Bierce
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 17:22:23 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Unity in Nerd Culture [was GenCon 99]
At 04:40 PM 2/1/1999 -0500, Brian Wawrow wrote:
>Y'know what? I've been into gaming for something like 15 years. The list is
>full of people who have been gaming in one form or another for at least that
>long. I bet I'm not alone in my observation that ours has always been a
>subculture that is, at best, misunderstood by common folk.
I've been RPGaming for almost 25 years myself, and in general I agree with
you here. Ours has been a misunderstood subculture.
>So when you see the 14 year old kid with his prepackaged Magic deck at the
>gaming convention, don't dis him. He's one of us. He's just new.
Here our viewpoints begin to diverge slightly. I enjoy some boardgames,
card games (not CCGs, but things played with a standard 52-card deck) and
so forth. By and large, these types of games are accepted by "the
mundanes", so we were only thought of as weird when we got into RPGs. That
being the case, in my mind, "gamer" actually means "roleplaying gamer".
Chess is a game. Poker is a game. People who play them enthusiastically
- -- or who enjoy regular games of bingo, bridge, mah jhong, etc. -- are not
thought of or referred to as "gamers". Nope, "gamers" have been, for
decades, role-players.
These days we have CCGs. The folks who engage in this form of gaming
activity are, I agree, "gamers" in that they, too, belong to a
misunderstood subculture revolving around a given type of game. But they
aren't "us".
>It's cool to be a purist but don't try and be a gaming snob. It never pays
>off. Personaly, I hate everything that even smells like White Wolf but if it
>brings new people into gaming, it's all good.
Snobbery is inevitable among gamers; there are no liberals, just people who
are conservative about different things. Even within the set of
roleplaying gamers, one group will pooh-pooh another group's chosen game
system. Within the subset of folks who agree on a system, prejudice exists
as to genre, playing style, power levels, even what type of character is
played.
I hope I'm not an *overt* gaming snob. I don't play Magic: the Endless
Gathering of Hundreds of Variant Cards (okay, that was overt), but my
roommate does, and I don't give him a hard time about it. I've helped him
locate some cards he needed. I bought him a button that reads: "Any
sufficiently advanced game is indistinguishable from Magic". I don't
happen to share the button's sentiment, that's all.
I have, on the other hand, been the victim of game snobbery at the hands of
Magic players (other than my roommate) and have witnessed instances of it
that didn't directly involve me. It seems to be partly a generational
thing, having to do with stuff the new guys take for granted that just
didn't exist when we started.
It applies to lots of stuff besides gaming, too. I went back to school in
'96-'97 to get an electronics degree. Kids in my computer classes simply
*did not believe* that there had ever been modems as slow as 110/300 baud,
or that early PCs did not come with hard drives. They were loudly
disdainful of the 486's in the lab rooms, wanting to know why the school
hadn't replaced them all with Pentiums "ages ago". They were certain they
would be ill-prepared for jobs in the real worls, where "everyone" used
233MHz Pentiums with 28.8Kbps modems and multi-gigabyte hard drives. My
first job after graduation was to replace 386's and some *286's* with
low-end Pentium class machines for county government, then give them
Windows '95 to replace their Windows 3.1 -- or DOS, in some cases --
operating system. I *really* hope some of these guys in my class had
similar jobs when they got out, because they really needed a dose of
reality. The idea that only "cutting edge" is usable or worthwhile is just
plain wrong. Which finally gets me back to the topic at hand...
As I said, I've been dissed or seen other RPGamers dissed by Magic zombies
who are laboring under the impression their form of gaming is the ultimate
expression of the form, *simply because* it's newer than the form I choose.
No one plays the old Infocom text-based adventure games ano more, because
all the graphics-intensive stuff is "kewl!" By the same token, RPGers are
wasting their time with those tired old character sheets, weird dice and
pencils, when they could be using slick cards and Pente stones to play a
*real* game. Yeah, well, in the words of Edmund Blackadder, "Utter crap!"
In my limited personal experience, I've seen no evidence that CCGs provide
an introduction to RPGaming. I consider CCGamers and RPGamers to be
separate breeds. I'll leave them alone if they leave me alone.
"Tap *this*, buddy!" (<-- Not directed at Brian.)
Damon
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:34:02 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Multipower Questions
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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>
>"WS" == Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com> writes:
>
>WS> Or, that you put four charges collectively on _all_ the slots. It's
>WS> just as easily read that way.
>
>Which does not work if you have 5 or more slots in your Multipower.
>Therefore I have to disregard that interpretation as being nonsensical.
That's only relevant in the discussion of charges on the individual slots as
compared to the multipower as a whole. A phaser would probably have three
or four settings as a multipower, but the charges still don't apply to the
seperate slots. Fact is, the system simply doesn't deal with all the cases
either way; the issue is which of the two interpetations of where the
charges land, on the multipower as a whole or on the slots is the default
assumption. Either one excludes some concepts, neither one is spelled
out...but only one of them is imbalanced.
>
>>> If Charges breaks, it is Charges that is broken and needs to be fixed.
>>> Making an exception is not fixing the problem, it is covering it up.
>WS> Nonsense. Charges works on every other part of the system;
>
>64 Charges is a +1/2 Advantage. Infinite Charges in the form of Zero
>Endurance Cost is a +1/2 Advantage.
Just means the higher numbers of charges aren't particularly worth while,
outside of autofire (where I think you have to hit the +1 level before it
doesn't make much sense) but it's at least not imbalanced.
>
>This is now two places where Charges appears not to work with the rest of
>the system, compared to the one for Multipower. At this point I am more
>inclined, not less, to lay fault with Charges.
See above. It works. It's kind of goofy, but it does no harm to take the
high number of charges. Not the same thing as assuming that the charges has
to be rewritten to accomodate multipowers. All that needs to be done is to
address how they apply to multipowers, which currently the system doesn't
really do.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:44:00 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Multipower Questions
>I think that, basically, the inability to see eye-to-eye here is arising
>from different approaches to the same problem. Some people take a
>bottom-up view: If all the slots have the same limitation written after
>them, then the limitation applies to the whole multipower. I disagree.
>I take the top-down view: If the limitation applies to the whole
>multipower, then it applies to all the slots. Thus, if the multipower
>doesn't work in the rain, has 4 charges, or is a Focus, then the slots
>also get the benefit of the limitation. These are the "freebies", and I
>have no problem with them, 'cause the rules say they're OK. I object to
>people getting 20-30 points knocked off of the cost of a Multipower,
>then saying, "Well, the fact that I can use my 70-pt Multipower 20 times
>a day is more limiting than only using my 60-pt Energy Blast 4 times a
>day, that's why I pay fewer points for it overall."
>
>Thank you, Anthony, your post has helped me clarify my own instinctive
>distrust from a flawed premise into a clearly defined policy.
I think that's a pretty fair summary of my view on it, too. If there are
two ways to view how the limitation applies to a multipower, and one of them
is clearly less limiting than it would be for an individual power that would
cost less than the multipower, I'd say it behooves people to look at their
interpetation good and hard. There is obviously a problem either way (I can
see reasons to have a multipower with either a bunch of individual sets of
charges (a gun with three or four selectable drums, for example) or one big
set (an energy weapon doing the same kind of thing but drawing from a single
power pack)) so there isn't much of a reason to argue for the 'charges apply
seperately to slots' interpetation...but there's some fairly big game
balance issues to argue for the other.
My own personal take has been to apply a variation on the 'charges in clips'
approach to the charges-per-slot situation...to allow the latter, but at a
reduced value based on the number of slots in the multipower. It may well
still break at some point, but it doesn't do so nearly as fast as the
interpetation I don't share.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 17:41:48 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Limitations on Multipowers
>
>I would say you're wrong on this one Rat.
>You lose 1d6 per hex you fill. An EB that is spread one die is exactly
>like an AoE: Hex; selective. He'd have to roll to hit each focus.
That's my take on it; if you cram a whole bunch of people into a hex, I let
you try to hit each of them too.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 20:51:21 -0600 (Central Standard Time)
From: Tim Gilberg <gilberg@ou.edu>
Subject: Re: LS and their effects on attack damage
> >But the tac nukes we were using (Basically a suitcase nuke) was a 100d6
> >EB; 0 range; explosive; one charge, never recovers. And that got the job
> >done fine.
>
>
> Over simple and a hair bit too big for a tacnuke, but if it worked for you...
You think? With that -1DC per inch explosion thing, this isn't
all that great.
-Tim Gilberg
-"English Majors of the World! Untie!"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:00:07 -0600 (Central Standard Time)
From: Tim Gilberg <gilberg@ou.edu>
Subject: Re: LS and their effects on attack damage
> Shrug. If the power was purchased such that LS:Radiation doesn't protect,
> LS:Radiation doesn't protect. This is a flaw in the writeup, not a flaw in the
> rules.
I'm pretty sure that was my entire point. That and GMs need to
recognize when a writeup is flawed in such a way and not go just as the
rules say to go.
-Tim Gilberg
-"English Majors of the World! Untie!"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 21:15:38 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Other SRPGs as source material
At 07:45 PM 2/1/1999 -0500, chrisopher spoor wrote:
>V&V has been redone on the net under the name L&L. can't find the
>address tonight
You might be looking for http://www.io.com/unigames/vandv.html
Damon
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 18:35:18 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Other SRPGs as source material
At 07:45 PM 2/1/99 -0500, chrisopher spoor wrote:
>V&V has been redone on the net under the name L&L. can't find the
>address tonight
That's probably because it's not L&L. It's called Living Legends, and I
believe that the rules are actually going to be put out through the
traditional commercial channels (though with a very active Web presence).
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:20:49 -0600 (Central Standard Time)
From: Tim Gilberg <gilberg@ou.edu>
Subject: Re: Unity in Nerd Culture [was GenCon 99]
> all the graphics-intensive stuff is "kewl!" By the same token, RPGers are
> wasting their time with those tired old character sheets, weird dice and
> pencils, when they could be using slick cards and Pente stones to play a
> *real* game. Yeah, well, in the words of Edmund Blackadder, "Utter crap!"
Hey! I use pente stones in my game! Pente is really quite fun.
You should try it sometime.
-Tim Gilberg
-"English Majors of the World! Untie!"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:14:06 -0600 (Central Standard Time)
From: Tim Gilberg <gilberg@ou.edu>
Subject: Re: Unity in Nerd Culture [was GenCon 99]
> I had that problem for a while in both Star Wars and Cyberpunk. I solved
> with the following decree: you lose some XP for pulling the cards out, and
> all of them if you start playing a game. About the third time this happened
> (when two players started playing while two other characters went off to do
> some infiltration, and the two playing were supposed to be monitoring them,
> and since they hadn't been paying attention, the two doing the infil died)
> it was not just me keeping them in line, it was the other players.
It was like a drug, people just didn't care. Lose EX, oh well. I
got to play Magic. Or they just left the RPG campaign for their Magic
nights.
-Tim Gilberg
-"English Majors of the World! Untie!"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 21:44:14 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Unity in Nerd Culture
At 05:16 PM 2/1/1999 -0800, Bryant Durrell wrote:
>Actually, I think it's a good for the hobby even if the person
>in question never plays something I like; if nothing else, he'll
>help keep my local gaming store open, and he'll help keep the
>distributors in business, and so on.
If he doesn't play something I like, he may keep the game store open, but
he does nothing to ensure that the store continues to stock my preferred
product. One or two customers like this are no threat. Once they
represent the majority of the customer base, it's a problem.
If the owner perceives a need to cater to the majority of his customers,
emphasis will be placed on one type of product over another. Efforts will
be made to keep every popular (or just new) CCG game, with all the
expansion sets, in stock at all times. But the store only has so much
money to buy with, so maybe some independent comics are dropped from the
store's list. They'll just buy the top sellers. Games? Oh, sure, they'll
still have them. But they will buy fewer copies, and perhaps drop one or
two of the lesser game systems altogether.
More and more of these shops identify themselves as "comic and card"
stores. Not "games", a general term that would apply to RPGs, CCGs and
others. Just "cards". Several of the 'comic and card' shops in San
Antonio don't carry games at all. At least one that *does* carry games has
only a single rotating rack with copies of a few select AD&D and White Wolf
products.
Comic and game shops tend to have high employee turnover (an owner may be
around for years, but his workers will come and go). An owner trying to
cater to a crowd of CCGamers may lean towards hiring counter workers with a
knowledge of CCGames. As has already been noted by others, the overlap
between CCGamers and RPGamers exists, but it is not great. A sales staff
who know CCGs, but not other types of game, or comics, makes it that much
more of a card store, and that much less of a comic and game shop. Older
customers may feel alienated by a staff that is no longer concerned with
their preferences.
Add to this the trend of small independent shops being bought out by chains
- -- San Antonio is not a huge city, but we have *six* Heroes and Fantasies
stores and three Alien Worlds shops here, a significant fraction of all the
comic and game shops in town -- and I think there's some scary potential
here. Chains tend to look at the bottom line to the exclusion of almost
everything else. Cards are small, lightweight items. They're easy and
cheap to ship, not as easily damaged as comics and some games in shipping
by virtue of their packaging. They take up little room in the store for
the amount of revenue they generate, and in most cases the customer is
practically forced to buy multiple sets in order to get the deck he wants.
This would seem to compare *real* favorably in the retailer's mind with the
items I go in to buy.
The CCGamers aren't just dissing me, they're gradually disPLACING me. Few
have actually done the former, but the whole mob of them is accomplishing
the latter.
Am I paranoid? Clearly I am. Am I *just* paranoid, and worrying about
nothing? Maybe...but only maybe.
Damon
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 22:33:55 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Unity in Nerd Culture
At 09:20 PM 2/1/1999 -0600, Tim Gilberg wrote:
>> all the graphics-intensive stuff is "kewl!" By the same token, RPGers are
>> wasting their time with those tired old character sheets, weird dice and
>> pencils, when they could be using slick cards and Pente stones to play a
>> *real* game. Yeah, well, in the words of Edmund Blackadder, "Utter crap!"
>
> Hey! I use pente stones in my game! Pente is really quite fun.
>You should try it sometime.
I got no problem with Pente (I don't think I've ever played it, so how
could I?) and I use the stones myself. The *one* CCG I let myself get
sucked into buying cards for was INWO, and that *only* because I enjoyed
the classic Illuminati game. I use the Pente stones for the groups' action
tokens. I suppose that's more or less what they're used for in Magic as well.
No, that part of my tirade was in reaction to the attitude I've gotten from
some CCGamers who seem to feel that if you aren't playing with waxed cards
and Pente stones, whatever you're playing is passe.
Damon
------------------------------
Date: 01 Feb 1999 23:59:11 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Multipower Questions
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
"WS" == Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com> writes:
WS> See above. It works. It's kind of goofy, but it does no harm to take
WS> the high number of charges.
Charges has gone from '[working] on every other part of the system' to
'kind of goofy'. None of the other limitations or advantages are 'kind of
goofy', just Charges. That should be a clue that there is something
inherently not quite right with Charges.
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Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ returned to its special container and
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ kept under refrigeration.
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #178
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Date: Tuesday, May 25, 1999 09:27 AM