Digest Archives Vol 1 Issue 184
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 1999 7:33 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #184
champ-l-digest Thursday, February 4 1999 Volume 01 : Number 184
In this issue:
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: Multipower Questions
Re: Normal Men as Superheores
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
RE: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Genre vs. Medium (Was Re: Normal Men as Superheroes)
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Strengh Table ?!?! and falling system!!!
Tolkien Characters
Upcoming campaign books
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: Strengh Table ?!?! and falling system!!!
Re: Strengh Table ?!?! and falling system!!!
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 08:34:56 -0800
From: Jay P Hailey <jayphailey@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
>For some time, I have been bothered a bit by PD/ED and normal humans
>as heroes. There are some serious playability issues vs certain
>characteristic concepts, such as normal human martial artists and the
infamous
>"eggshells with howitzers"-type of Energy Projector.
>On the other hand, if I create, for example, Cyclops, and only give
>him a human NCM of 8 PD, he will be splattered into goo by the first
good
>Haymaker from a superhumanly strong enemy, and seriously injured by
being hit
>just once by any brick. At the X-Men level, Juggernaut would kill him by
>spitting hard on him.
Cyclops, being a blaster usually likes to shoot targets from a distance.
If Juggernaut approached Cyke, Cyke would retreat and then shoot Juggy
from a distance again. Usually when facing Juggy heroes are not alone and
so Wolverine and whatever brick is there can keep Juggy busy while Cyke
shoots him from a distance. Team tactics cover for characters who can't
take a serious beating.
In the Comics also, the delicate people never seem to eat beams or
punches that would splatter them, either they just aren't there (Lot's of
martial dodges and diving for cover) or the attack is written down so
they aren't seriously injured.
Someone also mentioned that the X-Men's costumes are supposedly armored
to provide more Def.
In Game play there are two principles to keep in sight:
Game balance. A Juggy v Cyclops battle is seriously unbalanced in Juggy's
favor. Ergo DC, CV, and DEF limitations affect all characters across
the board.
Story telling: If Juggy would have smeared Cyke "realistically" the GM
downplays this aspect and says that after fighting valiantly, Cyke wakes
up with a headache and perhaps some dental work due. Brave, but
outclassed.
This whole "realistic" thing falls apart when you apply it to the
Superhero genre.
>So, I have started a list of "Normal Human Super Powers". These are
>powers that enforce the genre that allows Cyclops to go up against
Juggernaut
>and still live. I intend to push them on characters in my campaigns that
>claim to be normal humans, so that a bad roll of the dice doesn't
slaughter
>them, without giving them the ability to bounce attacks that _should_
>slaughter them. I.E. They look like normal humans, but somehow they
survive as
>superheroes.
>
>For starters: 50% Damage Reduction, Resistant, BODY Only, only when
>target can avoid (-1/4); SFX Constant Active and Lucky Avoidance of
Severe
>Injury. This is to stimulate how these normal human heroes can manage to
avoid
>serious injury time and again. The blow grazed his head; he's
>unconscious, but when he wakes up, he's only slightly bruised. He failed
his "Dive
>for Cover" roll, or didn't even attempt one, but he managed to get
partial
>cover before the grenade went off. The arrow went into his chest, but it
>missed the lungs and heart and is easily removed. And so on.
That seems consistent with the genre and if it works for you, then cool.
Myself, I wonder why you'd need to installthisd in the character sheets.
Roll dice behind a screen.
>Another variant would be used by characters like Spiderman, who have
>no resistant DEF. He would buy the above, but Resistant _only_, no
effect
>on normal damage. Thus, sure, bullets will kill him, but they never seem
>to hit him solidly enough, even when he does get shot.
>
>Other suggestions? Comments? Evil flames?
>
>Filksinger
This stuff seems to work just fine for me.
Jay P. Hailey <Meow!>
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free excercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech..."
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 10:20:26 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
>Just this - If you (the GM) don't think the character ought to die from
>a bad roll,
>then don't make him die from a bad roll. If it won't be fun,
>meaningful, etc. then
>don't let it happen.
That sort of interventionism...especially if it's going to have to be done
frequently...doesn't work for some people at all, though. I for one don't
view it as my job to have to do that sort of thing on a constant basis. If
I was bothered by giving theoretically normal supers a little extra PD and
ED and an armored costume, I think I'd want to fix this too.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 10:16:50 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Multipower Questions
>On Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:37:26 -0800 (PST), Wayne Shaw wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>If you need to make an exception for Charges, I resubmit that Charges is
>>>the problem, not Multipower.
>>
>>If that was the only Limitation that had this problem, I'd agree. It isn't.
>>Burnout suffers from exactly the same problem, as does Extra Time. That
>>tells me it's a framework problem, not a problem with the Limitation.
>
>I fail to see that it's a problem at all - it's one of the advantages
>of the Hero System which enables you to model just about anything. If
>you apply the Limitation to the MP, then that Limitation affects the
>whole MP. If your MP has a Burnout which kicks in, then the whole MP is
>Burned Out; if it's just the Powers within the MP, then it's just that
>one Power which gets Burned Out.
At which point, only the slot should get the Limitation, not the Multipower.
That's the problem; as discussed, the system doesn't make any distinction
between charges-on-slots and charges-on-pool. Hell, I'll even admit that my
interpetation doesn't help as soon as you get into the break even or higher
charges numbers; I had to come up with a house rule to address it in the end.
My argument was that the cost value is clearly broken when a four slot
multipower with charges can end up with more overall uses than one of it's
single powers would while costing less. Something is obviously wrong at
that point. Rat thinks it's the Charges; I think it's how the Multipower
handles them.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 10:28:07 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheores
>I now have far more martial artists who dish out 5 or 6 dice damage and have
>defences of less than 12. They survuve and compete but if a brick does actually
>catch one of them they are in serious trouble.
>
>Fast, agile, extremely strong bricks are, and should be exceptionally
>dangerous in my campaign.
The problem I have with this in the game setting is that there are a few too
many ways for the brick to bypass his inaccuracy (and not all bricks are all
that inaccurate even in the comics...there have been comments about the
Thing's skill in hand to hand on a number of occasions) such as the infamous
'hit them with a car' routine. In addition, a martial artist doing damage
in that range simply can't typically hurt most bricks and many energy
projectors. I'd probably get very frustrated playing such a character.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 11:07:01 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
From: Acid Rainbow <samael@clark.net>
<snip>
> Speaking canonically, (or whatever) Cyclops *should* have armor bought as
>OIF (costume). All X-uniforms are armored even if they look skin-tight,
>except in the case of a character who doesn't need armor.
The original X-Men uniforms had wire mesh in them. Not much armor there; it
wouldn't stop a bullet.
>Spider-Man is a
>different case, and IMO should have Damage Reduction (SFX: luck) and
>possibly Missile Deflection (SFX: evades missiles).
Yes, to both.
>There's also an
>unwritten rule in comic-book land that an the accuracy of an attack is
>inversly proportional to its Lethality. Thus, a mega-blast capable of
>blowing holes thru questonite walls can seldom be made to hit a target much
>smaller than said walls, whilst a banana-cream pie rarely misses.
And if the mega-blast hits a hero, the hero was _mostly_ missed, while still
taking damage and being put down. The blast hit the wall and the concussion
took the hero down. Or it grazed him, and he got bad burns, but lived. Etc,
etc, etc.
This is exactly what I am trying to build here. Sets of "powers" that aren't
powers, per se, but enforcement of genre conventions, allowing heroes who
would have died in the first major supervillain assault to go on for years.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 11:20:58 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
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>Hash: SHA1
<snip>
>It does not matter who the brick is, it is a convention of genre. The
>situation you describe simply will not happen, ever.
Save that it does happen, _frequently_. Superheroes are _constantly_ going
up against supervillains who, _if they connect solidly_, will squash them
like bugs. Or going into buildings on the verge of collapse, where the hero
next to them will live no matter what, but they could get squished easily.
Or a host of situations where, if they make one mistake, they are toast. A
"mistake" that, in HERO, is a matter of just making a bad die roll.
It is part of the genre that superheroes will often face dangers that can
easily kill them, but they live, nevertheless. Situation which, in HERO,
they can die in.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 12:18:54 -0700
From: Curtis A Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
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>
> "N" == Nuncheon <jeffj@io.com> writes:
>
> >> Juggy wouldn't pull his punches; he would use significantly less than his
> >> full strength.
>
> N> Replace Juggernaut with an enraged Hulk, then.
>
> It does not matter who the brick is, it is a convention of genre. The
> situation you describe simply will not happen, ever.
In comics that would be the case... but in a game?
One- HERO is a universal system. Figuring way to duplicate effects
(whether they be genre conventions or no) is not a bad thing. This kind
of thing could also be how a lightly armored slow mage keeps from
getting killed traveling with the Conan clone in an FH game, it could
also be a good way to duplicate Luke Skywalker's only getting hit in the
hand ect.
Two- Not all GMs enforce genre convention. A good deal of them fall into
other camps; wargamers (to some extent) where if you didn't pay for it,
you don't get it. Genre conventions don't matter- play balance is
everything. This kind of a power is a good way to duplicate a seen genre
convention with this kind of a GM, without messing up his game, or
getting your character killed.
Three- As has already been pointed out, this is also good for the
villians that fall under that style of construction, because PCs don't
always follow genre convention.
- -Mhoram
- --
Little Willie Ceaser he was in trouble, runnin' like a bandit through
his longest darkest night. All that Willie lacked, in fact, was a
shovel. Then he could have dug himself his own grave, and saved
everybody some time. -Tonio K
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 11:35:23 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
From: David A. Fair <David_A._Fair@fc.mcps.k12.md.us>
<snip>
>I wouldn't bother with all of that, just make him buy a couple of extra
>DCV
>combat levels to represent how good he is at avoiding getting hit. He
>probably
>has a higher SPD than the brick who would paste him, so he can afford
>to avoid
>him when he needs to. Maybe throw combat sense and/or defensive
>maneuver
>in there for good measure.
And eventually an opponent will get a good swing, and "splat!". Besides
which, superheroes with good DCVs frequently _mostly_ avoid attacks, but
still get some of the attack. This is not simulated by DCVs.
>>Other suggestions? Comments? Evil flames?
>
>Just this - If you (the GM) don't think the character ought to die from
>a bad roll,
>then don't make him die from a bad roll. If it won't be fun,
>meaningful, etc. then
>don't let it happen.
Have had players who didn't like the "well, you should have died, but you're
a PC, so you live." Heck, _I_ don't like it as a player. And I don't like
the contrivedness of it when I am GM, either.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 11:49:52 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
>And if the mega-blast hits a hero, the hero was _mostly_ missed, while still
>taking damage and being put down. The blast hit the wall and the concussion
>took the hero down. Or it grazed him, and he got bad burns, but lived. Etc,
>etc, etc.
That's one of the reasons people seem overly durable next to inanimate
objects, Body and defense-wise in the system, as a matter of fact; to
simulate that somehow, the energy blasts that will blow through a wall hit a
theoretically human hero and don't annhilate him. This is one of the
reasons I don't sweat a certain amount of the small stuff in the superhero
genre, as far as 'realism' issues go.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 10:57:07 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
<snip>
>I played a character exactly like that, and exactly that happened. My
>character was totally out-classed. I knew this. But I was stupid, he was
>stupid, and we paid for it. The fault was mine, not the GM's and not the
>system's. If you insist on playing a character with defenses that are
>significantly below what the campaign calls for (ie, 8 DEF in a 12DC
>campaign), do not blame the system for that character's death when you or
>he does something stupid.
In a superhero game, it doesn't require something stupid. If you go around
doing heroic things, sooner or later you are going to get hit with a heavy
attack. A bad roll on a 12d6 EB can kill someone with an 8 PD. Eventually,
some attack will splatter you in a superheroic-level game if you have only
NCM-level defenses.
The purpose of the power suggested wasn't to bypass or violate the
conventions of the genre; it was to enforce them. Heroes with low defenses,
or going up against killing attacks without resistant defenses, are
constantly _mostly_ avoiding attacks, but still getting hurt. Villains
slaughtering Normals left and right somehow can't quite connect solidly on
the hero, even though the hero doesn't have an exceptional DCV- if he did,
he wouldn't get hit at all.
It is a standard genre convention. However, virtually no one will use such
characters in HERO, because they get splattered too easily. All I wanted to
do was to create a few powers that enforced genre conventions.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 14:15:00 -0500
From: Brian Wawrow <bwawrow@mondello.toronto.fmco.com>
Subject: RE: Normal Men as Superheroes
I guess this is a matter of taste but aren't we talking about hoop-jumping?
You know those fights where the bad guys either drop fast or never get
stunned regardless of group coordination, lucky rolls or clever tactics. I
hate those fights.
If we're talking about the comic book genre, specifically the old school 4
colour comics, the fights were exciting. Remember Thunderbird from the
X-Men? He got killed on his first adventure trying to save the original
X-Men from Krakatoa. Have you ever seen Spiderman get KO'd by the Rhino or
squeezed into a coma by Dr. Octopus? Of course you have. If you never saw
that, you wouldn't care. There'd be no suspense or drama. How many cover
drawings did Jack Kirby draw with Mandarin or Magneto standing over a pile
of unconscious superheros with ripped costumes? Have you ever seen the Hulk
put innocent lives in danger? Every issue. The Hulk would try to avoid
fights but once it was on, he never pulled a punch.
I guess in DC there were more examples of supers taking it easy on the bad
guys. If not, Lex Luther would have gone the way of Kraven by now.
What's my point? As a GM, if the PC can't take a hit, the PC should keep his
fool head down. As a player, if the GM is running fights like professional
wrestling, why do I have a character sheet?
Okay, that'll do.
BRI
] >For some time, I have been bothered a bit by PD/ED and normal humans
] >as heroes. There are some serious playability issues vs certain
] >characteristic concepts, such as normal human martial artists and the
] infamous
] >"eggshells with howitzers"-type of Energy Projector.
]
] >On the other hand, if I create, for example, Cyclops, and only give
] >him a human NCM of 8 PD, he will be splattered into goo by the first
] good
] >Haymaker from a superhumanly strong enemy, and seriously injured by
] being hit
] >just once by any brick. At the X-Men level, Juggernaut would
] kill him by
]
] >spitting hard on him.
]
] Cyclops, being a blaster usually likes to shoot targets from
] a distance.
] If Juggernaut approached Cyke, Cyke would retreat and then shoot Juggy
] from a distance again. Usually when facing Juggy heroes are
] not alone and
] so Wolverine and whatever brick is there can keep Juggy busy
] while Cyke
] shoots him from a distance. Team tactics cover for
] characters who can't
] take a serious beating.
]
] In the Comics also, the delicate people never seem to eat beams or
] punches that would splatter them, either they just aren't
] there (Lot's of
] martial dodges and diving for cover) or the attack is written down so
] they aren't seriously injured.
]
] Someone also mentioned that the X-Men's costumes are
] supposedly armored
] to provide more Def.
]
] In Game play there are two principles to keep in sight:
]
] Game balance. A Juggy v Cyclops battle is seriously
] unbalanced in Juggy's
] favor. Ergo DC, CV, and DEF limitations affect all characters across
] the board.
]
] Story telling: If Juggy would have smeared Cyke
] "realistically" the GM
] downplays this aspect and says that after fighting valiantly,
] Cyke wakes
] up with a headache and perhaps some dental work due. Brave, but
] outclassed.
]
] This whole "realistic" thing falls apart when you apply it to the
] Superhero genre.
]
] >So, I have started a list of "Normal Human Super Powers". These are
] >powers that enforce the genre that allows Cyclops to go up against
] Juggernaut
] >and still live. I intend to push them on characters in my
] campaigns that
]
] >claim to be normal humans, so that a bad roll of the dice doesn't
] slaughter
] >them, without giving them the ability to bounce attacks that
] _should_
] >slaughter them. I.E. They look like normal humans, but somehow they
] survive as
] >superheroes.
] >
] >For starters: 50% Damage Reduction, Resistant, BODY Only, only when
] >target can avoid (-1/4); SFX Constant Active and Lucky Avoidance of
] Severe
] >Injury. This is to stimulate how these normal human heroes
] can manage to
] avoid
] >serious injury time and again. The blow grazed his head; he's
] >unconscious, but when he wakes up, he's only slightly
] bruised. He failed
] his "Dive
] >for Cover" roll, or didn't even attempt one, but he managed to get
] partial
] >cover before the grenade went off. The arrow went into his
] chest, but it
]
] >missed the lungs and heart and is easily removed. And so on.
]
] That seems consistent with the genre and if it works for you,
] then cool.
] Myself, I wonder why you'd need to installthisd in the
] character sheets.
] Roll dice behind a screen.
]
] >Another variant would be used by characters like Spiderman, who have
] >no resistant DEF. He would buy the above, but Resistant _only_, no
] effect
] >on normal damage. Thus, sure, bullets will kill him, but
] they never seem
]
] >to hit him solidly enough, even when he does get shot.
] >
] >Other suggestions? Comments? Evil flames?
] >
] >Filksinger
]
]
] This stuff seems to work just fine for me.
]
]
] Jay P. Hailey <Meow!>
]
] "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of
] religion, or
] prohibiting the free excercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
] speech..."
]
] ___________________________________________________________________
] You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
] Get completely free e-mail from Juno at
] http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
] or call Juno at (800)
] 654-JUNO [654-5866]
]
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 12:02:42 +0000
From: Gary & Kim Miles <miles.kim.gary@mcleodusa.net>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
David A. Fair wrote:
> filkhero@usa.net writes:
> >On the one hand, without leaving Normal Characteristic Maxima, it is
> >possible to buy a character with an 8 PD, which allows the character to
> >stand directly next to four sticks of dynamite, and have a better than
> >50/50
> >chance of taking no BODY damage. Martial Artists and supposedly
> >physically
> >normal heroes in Champions often have 10 or 15 PD/ED scores, allowing
> >them
> >to lay on top of a stack of TNT bricks, detonate it, and wake up in the
> >hospital with a bad headache and only minor bruises.
> Who in their right mind is not modeling Dynamite as a Killing Attack?
> It almost defines the Explosive Killing Attack. Normal PD will not help
> them
> here, They are gonna need Resistant Defenses.
Wrong answer, but thanks for playing. BBB page 203 has 1 stick of dynamite
as 5D6 EX, 2 sticks as 7D6 EX, and 4 sticks as 9D6 EX. The reason most of
the explosions on page 203 are modelled as Normal Explosions rather than
Killing is that with most explosives, the main damage is from concussion.
The only types of explosions where this isn't so is ones which have a
fragmentation effect, such as a frag grenade, a mortar round, etc.
Gary
Remember: No Matter Where You Go, There You Are...
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 12:12:17 -0800
From: Scott Bennie <sbennie@dowco.com>
Subject: Genre vs. Medium (Was Re: Normal Men as Superheroes)
Some general thoughts on what's emerged from this thread.
I think it's really good to enforce the genre, to work at making the game feel
genre, but there are limits to what the medium will or should allow. If a GM
*insists* on non-brick PCs being brittle to enforce their ideas on the genre -
it's interfering with the player's concept of the character, and thus
interfering with role-playing. If the GM fudges a fight so a brick will always
challenge a fight and a brittle character is never in serious danger; that's
wrong from a *game* standpoint (particularly if one believes the tactical
component is important), and it's also bad as far as drama's concerned. Battles
require threat and challenge to be memorable, to be, dare I say, dramatic.
Otherwise, why bother with them?
Threat levels and the power level of normals/low powered PCs depend on the
emphasis the GM wants to place in the campaign, I suppose, but role-playing
games as a medium have different rules than comics, just as movies, television,
daily comic strips, card games and other media have things that work for them
and what don't, and the things that work in one media don't necessarily
transfer to another. Champions PCs should be tough enough to survive some
formidable opposition. Respect the genre, but also respect the medium.
And also, why does everyone have the impression that Cyke is all *that*
brittle? How can anyone who as brittle as people thinks Cyclops is, survive so
many years of Danger Room training? He's good, but he's not perfect, and it's
not called a "danger" room for nothing. At the very least he's upper-top end
normal; probably no lower than 7 PD/ED..
I know, I know, he survives on writer's fiat. But like its automative namesake,
"fiat" is a low quality vehicle (for storytelling). Heavy-handed deus ex
machina as a desirable storytelling tool went out with the Greeks. Why do a lot
of storytelling GMs like to emulate bad storytelling?
(Yes, that's a troll. Sometimes if the dice are against you when the players
have done everything right, you do need to nudge the universe in a kinder,
gentler direction. But, simulationist fossil that I am, I find *frequent*
meta-intervention on the part of the GM annoying, as annoying as I find
meta-mechanics such as arbitrary card play (the current rave in modern RPG
systems design) or rules loophole exploitation. It's sad being a Baroque in a
Classicist world. And sometimes I feel like tweaking the Classicists in the
nose and telling them they're not as good as they think).
Scott Bennie
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:09:46 -0600 (CST)
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
> From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
>
> In a superhero game, it doesn't require something stupid. If you go around
> doing heroic things, sooner or later you are going to get hit with a heavy
> attack. A bad roll on a 12d6 EB can kill someone with an 8 PD. Eventually,
> some attack will splatter you in a superheroic-level game if you have only
> NCM-level defenses.
>
Just to quibble: 24 body - 8 pd = 16 body taken average body = 10
leaving the character at negative 6 body and dead in 4 turns. more
typically, an 8 PD character could take 3 shots before starting to die.
> The purpose of the power suggested wasn't to bypass or violate the
> conventions of the genre; it was to enforce them. Heroes with low defenses,
> or going up against killing attacks without resistant defenses, are
> constantly _mostly_ avoiding attacks, but still getting hurt. Villains
> slaughtering Normals left and right somehow can't quite connect solidly on
> the hero, even though the hero doesn't have an exceptional DCV- if he did,
> he wouldn't get hit at all.
OK, so you suggested damage reduction defined as only being hit by a glancing
blow, or rolling with the blow, or being hit in a non-vital spot for these
types of characters because they should still take _some_ damage ?
Otherwise, you can always buy extra defenses with the same special effects
definition, right ?
Curt
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 22:57:01 +0100
From: Black Bishop <BISHOP@bdc2.sirnet.it>
Subject: Strengh Table ?!?! and falling system!!!
Hi folks, I am sorry if I didn't write before but study kept me very busy
Well just today I was planning a new campaign for us
It is designed in 2047, with a setting similar to "Age of Apocalypse" (BUT
NOT THE SAME!!!!)
(Just to make you understand)
Well now I have a problem... Strengh table doesn't suit in my campaign...
it is TOO powerful !!!
Well... a 20 STR man can lift 400 Kg, too much for a normal guy I think !!!
And an our Brick would have 60 STR, that is allowed but he can lift TOO
MUCH!!!
(Hey man... 100 tons are too much!!!)
Could you halp me to find a good idea ? I was thinking about allow lift the
STR^2 in Kilos but it is too weak !!!
Ok now another one : Falling system allows an average superhuman to fall
for hundreds of meters and stay alive !!
It is wrong in my opinion so falling should be more lethal...
Any advice ???
Thank ya all!!
B-Bishop
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 17:24:56 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: Tolkien Characters
I just spent three hours writing a post that explains
why I've decided NOT to revise the VPP's I'd been
using for the Tolkien characters.
Then I accidently deleted it. After I stopped banging
my head, I decided to write this very short note.
Elrond raises the fords of the Bruinen. I model that
as:
2d6 Killing Attack, Continuous, Area of Effect, Any
Area, x1000 area, Only along river's course, 1 continuing
1-day charge. Active points: 165.
With Elrond's VPP at 75 and Vilya giving him a 15d6 Aid
at maximum efficiency, he could just do this. So, it stays,
with some refined explanations of what "Maiar" and "Eldar"
powers are.
I'll get to Gandalf the White today or tomorrow.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"He reached that middle height, and at the stars,
Which are the brain of heaven, he looked and sank.
Around the ancient track marched, rank on rank,
The army of unalterable law."
George Meredith, Lucifer in Starlight
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scott C. Nolan
nolan@erols.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 16:57:18 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Upcoming campaign books
A week or two back, Hero Games listed at least 3 campaign settings for
Champions that are in the works. I asked how these would stand out from
the rest, because I was concerned that this was overkill--we already have
Champions Universe, New Millennium, and San Angelo which cover pretty much
the same ground (4-color), and then we have Hudson City (Dark Champions)
for a gritty campaign.
The answers I got about the different campaigns mainly just described
different ways that superpowers originated in that world. Is a different
power source enough to distinguish one superhero campaign world from
another? The last thing we need is yet another book which just describes a
city and its businesses/people/happenings (I may be the only one who thinks
San Angelo is too heavy in details of the mundane), but I haven't heard
anything yet to show that these 3 upcoming settings are more than that.
When you strip out the rule systems supported by each, there really isn't
that much different between New Millennium and San Angelo. I mean, you can
point out certain features of each (such as The Pit in NM) which are
unique, and maybe one setting book covers a certain area much better than
the other, but when you ask the question "What types of adventures will be
played in this setting?", you'll come up with very similar answers for
those two settings. Ditto for Champions Universe. So far, Hudson City is
the only setting which has a unique answer to that question.
So what I'm wondering is: Will these 3 upcoming settings have their own
unique answers to that question like Dark Champions does, or are we going
to get 3 repeats of the answer for either San Angelo or New Millennium? If
the answer is not somewhat different, then I think there may be a little
bit of overkill happening in the campaign setting department.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 18:00:15 -0600
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
At 12:02 PM 2/4/99 +0000, Gary & Kim Miles wrote:
>Wrong answer, but thanks for playing. BBB page 203 has 1 stick of dynamite
>as 5D6 EX, 2 sticks as 7D6 EX, and 4 sticks as 9D6 EX. The reason most of
>the explosions on page 203 are modelled as Normal Explosions rather than
>Killing is that with most explosives, the main damage is from concussion.
>The only types of explosions where this isn't so is ones which have a
>fragmentation effect, such as a frag grenade, a mortar round, etc.
Well, true, but put the dynamite in the right surroundings and it will
create a fragmentation effect. After all, a "frag" grenade is essentially a
concussion grenade wrapped in nicely brittle metal.
This sort of thing is obviously a GM call, tho. Just being picky. ;]
- --
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- attributed to Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:03:18 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
>
>> From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
>>
>> In a superhero game, it doesn't require something stupid. If you go
around
>> doing heroic things, sooner or later you are going to get hit with a
heavy
>> attack. A bad roll on a 12d6 EB can kill someone with an 8 PD.
Eventually,
>> some attack will splatter you in a superheroic-level game if you have
only
>> NCM-level defenses.
>>
>Just to quibble: 24 body - 8 pd = 16 body taken average body = 10
>leaving the character at negative 6 body and dead in 4 turns. more
>typically, an 8 PD character could take 3 shots before starting to die.
True, but you forgot knockback. A 12d6 attack could do, say, 15 BODY easily,
resulting in a possible 12d6 from knockback if you roll a 3 to avoid it, and
another 14 BODY from a moderately high roll on the knockback. Unlikely, but
not monumentally so, and your character is dying. Sooner or later, it _will_
happen to your character, if the GM doesn't play "Deus Ex Machina".
<snip>
>
>OK, so you suggested damage reduction defined as only being hit by a
glancing
>blow, or rolling with the blow, or being hit in a non-vital spot for these
>types of characters because they should still take _some_ damage ?
>
>Otherwise, you can always buy extra defenses with the same special effects
>definition, right ?
Yes, but there were specific reasons for writing it up as I did. The hero
could die if he is grabbed by a brick and crushed, because he can't avoid.
If he is a prisoner, he can't rely on his defenses to allow him to escape
the guards, because he isn't super-tough, he just avoids attacks well. If he
can't avoid, he's toast.
I also used DR, BODY only, for a reason. It is not uncommon in numerous
genre's for heroes to be knocked cold by attacks that should have killed.
These attacks usually do damage to the character, and take him out of the
fight, but somehow do not kill him. Armor can simulate these, but I find it
to be more believable if they get hurt, but just not as badly as they should
have. Armor and DR may allow for "bullet grazed skull", but the skull
doesn't get cracked because the bullet bounced outright, and they protect
against STUN, as well. Sometimes that isn't what I want.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 15:15:05 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: Strengh Table ?!?! and falling system!!!
>Well now I have a problem... Strengh table doesn't suit in my campaign...
>it is TOO powerful !!!
>Well... a 20 STR man can lift 400 Kg, too much for a normal guy I think !!!
>And an our Brick would have 60 STR, that is allowed but he can lift TOO
>MUCH!!!
>(Hey man... 100 tons are too much!!!)
Too much for what? For the damage done? I have always felt without the
full set of optional rules that the strength damage is far too LOW for the
amount you lift (if I can lift a tank over my head I should kill a normal
person instantly with any even semi solid punch, I would say, but 10D6 just
makes them go owiee and maybe bleed to death if they are 8 BOD,
eventually). If you dont like the amound they can lift, limit the STR
level and let them buy extra dice for the damage if you want that. I dont
see any reason to alter the strength chart, if you dont want people to lift
trawlers, put a cap on STR.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:22:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Strengh Table ?!?! and falling system!!!
Black Bishop writes:
> Hi folks, I am sorry if I didn't write before but study kept me very busy
> Well just today I was planning a new campaign for us
> It is designed in 2047, with a setting similar to "Age of Apocalypse" (BUT
> NOT THE SAME!!!!)
> (Just to make you understand)
> Well now I have a problem... Strengh table doesn't suit in my campaign...
> it is TOO powerful !!!
> Well... a 20 STR man can lift 400 Kg, too much for a normal guy I think !!!
There's an argument for the strength table referring to deadlift, not
benchpress, in which case the strength table is fairly reasonable.
> And an our Brick would have 60 STR, that is allowed but he can lift TOO
> MUCH!!!
Then don't let the brick have a 60 strength. 100 tons isn't all that much, its
a traincar, fully loaded semi, or a boulder about 9 meters across.
> (Hey man... 100 tons are too much!!!)
> Could you halp me to find a good idea ? I was thinking about allow lift the
> STR^2 in Kilos but it is too weak !!!
>
> Ok now another one : Falling system allows an average superhuman to fall
> for hundreds of meters and stay alive !!
> It is wrong in my opinion so falling should be more lethal...
Actually, falling damage, as compared to other forms of damage, is unreasonably
_high_ in Champions. A terminal velocity fall shouldn't be more lethal than
155mm artillery (which, with current rules, it is).
> Any advice ???
Set your game to 10d6 and around 20 max defenses instead of 12d6 and 30. Most
of your problems should evaporate.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:43:08 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
>> Who in their right mind is not modeling Dynamite as a Killing Attack?
>> It almost defines the Explosive Killing Attack. Normal PD will not help
>> them
>> here, They are gonna need Resistant Defenses.
>
>Wrong answer, but thanks for playing. BBB page 203 has 1 stick of dynamite
>as 5D6 EX, 2 sticks as 7D6 EX, and 4 sticks as 9D6 EX. The reason most of
>the explosions on page 203 are modelled as Normal Explosions rather than
>Killing is that with most explosives, the main damage is from concussion.
>The only types of explosions where this isn't so is ones which have a
>fragmentation effect, such as a frag grenade, a mortar round, etc.
And I can state from personal experience that that's correct. I was
standing rather near a small blasting charge when it went off prematurely,
and it knocked me off my feet, left my ears ringing, and knocked me silly,
but I was pretty much fine a little while later. Large amounts of it are
much more dangerous, of course...but then, with normal people with PD in the
2-4 range, they are in the game, too.
------------------------------
Date: 04 Feb 1999 18:49:39 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
"BD" == Bryant Durrell <durrell@innocence.com> writes:
BD> So, let's get back to *other* ways of keeping martial artists viable
BD> when fighting bricks...
Don't play a character with defenses that are half the minimum recomended
by the DC cap of the game. That is, if you are in a 12DC game, you should
have 12 PD and ED, minimum. If you have less than that... don't fight
70-Strength bricks, because eventually one of them will tag you.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ head.
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #184
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Date: Tuesday, May 25, 1999 09:28 AM