Digest Archives Vol 1 Issue 185
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 1999 10:33 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #185
champ-l-digest Thursday, February 4 1999 Volume 01 : Number 185
In this issue:
The 3d6- system sucks!
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: Strengh Table ?!?! and falling system!!!
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
New Martial arts package
Re: Upcoming campaign books
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes & Genre conventions
Re: Upcoming campaign books
Re: [Re: Limitations on Multipowers]
Re: Upcoming campaign books
Re: The 3d6- system sucks!
Re: The 3d6- system sucks!
Re: Upcoming campaign books
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: [Re: Multipower Questions]
Re: [Re: Limitations on Multipowers]
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: Genre vs. Medium (Was Re: Normal Men as Superheroes)
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: [Re: Multipower Questions]
Re: New Martial arts package
Re: Genre vs. Medium (Was Re: Normal Men as Superheroes)
Re: [Re: Limitations on Multipowers]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 00:28:55 -0000
From: "Phil Dack" <philipd@intonet.co.uk>
Subject: The 3d6- system sucks!
quick poll.
does anyone else agree with me that it doesn't make sense that:
a. 15 intelligence is twice that of 10 intelligence.
b. Accomplishing a basic knowledge skill, 10 int has a barely decreased
statistical change of success, 11- being only a little less likely that 12-.
Or is it just me being petty?
Phil
------------------------------
Date: 04 Feb 1999 19:15:19 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
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"CH" == Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> writes:
CH> Just to quibble: 24 body - 8 pd = 16 body taken average body = 10
CH> leaving the character at negative 6 body and dead in 4 turns.
Don't forget knockback. In this case, the character is paste.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 15:36:12 -0800
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Strengh Table ?!?! and falling system!!!
Black Bishop wrote:
> Well now I have a problem... Strengh table doesn't suit in my campaign...
> it is TOO powerful !!!
> Well... a 20 STR man can lift 400 Kg, too much for a normal guy I think !!!
> And an our Brick would have 60 STR, that is allowed but he can lift TOO
> MUCH!!!
20 Str is very good for a normal.
> Could you halp me to find a good idea ? I was thinking about allow lift the
> STR^2 in Kilos but it is too weak !!!
You could do what Sam Bell did for a fantasy game which was:
25 kg * 2^(STR/10) as opposed to 25kg * 2^(STR/5)
Cuts down the strength lifted to 20 str = 200kg & 60 str = 1600kg
> Ok now another one : Falling system allows an average superhuman to fall
> for hundreds of meters and stay alive !!
> It is wrong in my opinion so falling should be more lethal...
> Any advice ??? Thank ya all!!
It's strange, but it's more a problem with characters being able to survive
amazing damage. See Filk's ideas on that. I prefer it to the various
systems where you can die if you trip over a dachshund.
- -Mark Lemming
------------------------------
Date: 04 Feb 1999 19:02:00 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
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"MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@otd.com> writes:
MS> And how do you propose enforcing this aspect ofthe genre in a game? Do
MS> you ensure that the low DEF PC never meets the high-STR NPC brick?
By never having the high-STR NPC brick go directly after low-DEF PC, thus
obviating the fudging of dice or railroading the PCs. Of course, if said
PC is foolish enough to challenge said NPC, the first time I will fudge it
a bit by having the NPC simply brush away the insignificant insect with
casual Strength. If the PC keeps pressing in, well, by that point he
should know better.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ head.
------------------------------
Date: 04 Feb 1999 19:12:54 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
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"F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
F> In a superhero game, it doesn't require something stupid. If you go around
F> doing heroic things, sooner or later you are going to get hit with a heavy
F> attack. A bad roll on a 12d6 EB can kill someone with an 8 PD. Eventually,
F> some attack will splatter you in a superheroic-level game if you have only
F> NCM-level defenses.
By your reasoning, the Batman, as a member of the LSH, should be dead a
hundred times over. The reason he is not is because he never directly
confronts someone vastly more powerful than himself[1]. Such an attack
will never splatter him because he is never anywhere near where it could
happen. Instead, Superman will be up front keeping such a villain busy
while the Batman is doing something clever.
[1]On the rare occasions that he does, he has some specially prepared
gadget to even the odds.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds.
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 17:13:15 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
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<snip>
>
>Don't play a character with defenses that are half the minimum recomended
>by the DC cap of the game. That is, if you are in a 12DC game, you should
>have 12 PD and ED, minimum. If you have less than that... don't fight
>70-Strength bricks, because eventually one of them will tag you.
What's wrong with Damage Reduction, with the SFX of "Gets mostly out of the
way"? Why is PD/ED the only viable method?
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: 04 Feb 1999 18:57:00 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
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"SN" == Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com> writes:
SN> In my experience, players don't give a rat's ass for the conventions of
SN> genre; they go for efficient combat.
Give them a reason not to do that.
Start off with having a long-serving police detective call the PCs on their
excessive use of unnecessary force. Get the public behind it. Get a news
paper reporter behind it.
If you are feeling generous, warn them out of character about the
possiblity of a manslaugher charge, if not worse.
If they ignore all if it, you nail 'em... not immediately, though.
Somewhere down the line, one of the villains they fight, someone who
appears to be an otherwise normal human really is an otherwise normal
human. Then let 'em squirm on the legal hook.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 00:43:49 GMT
From: samael@clark.net (Acid Rainbow)
Subject: New Martial arts package
Well, here's a Martial Arts package I just came up with for flyers or
swingers.
MA: Aerial Combat
Maneuver Cost OCV DCV Effect
Evasive action 4 +0 +5 Dodge/abort
Flying Kick 5 -2 -2 STR + v/3, FMove, You take 1/4 dmg
Flying Strike 5 +1 +0 STR + v/5, FMove
Flying Takeaway 5 -2 +0 Grab Weapon, STR + v/5, FMove
Evasive action is simply a martial dodge.
Flying Kick is intended, among other things, to model the classic
swashbuckler move of swinging from a rope and slamming into the victim
feet-first. Even if your average swashbuckler only uses this move vs mooks,
still, I've never seen any of these guys miss. I tend to think of the
standard move-through as going head or shoulder-first into the target, and
thus the 1/2 damage.
Flying Strike is obviously a Passing Strike.
Flying is modeled on the Shove Takeaway, but taking advantage of extra
velocity from swinging or flying (although a swinger might well end up
spinning uncontrollably if he makes a bad roll.)
**********************************************************************
*Lissajous patterns and windmills and don't ask about the connection.*
* Acid Rainbow: Semi-professional windmill-tilter. *
**********************************************************************
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 19:26:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@otd.com>
Subject: Re: Upcoming campaign books
On Thu, 4 Feb 1999, David Stallard wrote:
> A week or two back, Hero Games listed at least 3 campaign settings for
> Champions that are in the works. I asked how these would stand out from
> the rest, because I was concerned that this was overkill--we already have
> Champions Universe, New Millennium, and San Angelo which cover pretty much
> the same ground (4-color), and then we have Hudson City (Dark Champions)
> for a gritty campaign.
>
> The answers I got about the different campaigns mainly just described
> different ways that superpowers originated in that world. Is a different
> power source enough to distinguish one superhero campaign world from
> another? The last thing we need is yet another book which just describes a
> city and its businesses/people/happenings (I may be the only one who thinks
> San Angelo is too heavy in details of the mundane), but I haven't heard
> anything yet to show that these 3 upcoming settings are more than that.
Okay, one of the setting described is my campaign setting "Kazei 5". K5
is *not* a superhero campaign setting, but instead is an anime/cyberpunk
setting. It has nothing to do with superheroes and presents a
completelty different universe than C:TNM or San Angelo. The book gives
new ideas for cybernetics, mecha (ie robots) powered armor (ie hardsuits)
and psychokinetics (such as seen in the anime "Akira"). Extensive notes
about how such rules can be applied to an animes-tyled game are included.
There is also a campagin setting, a possible PC organization, sample
armor, weapons, vehicles, robots, replicants and mecha and a wide
variety of NPCs.
How's that?
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
A train station is where trains stop. A bus station is where buses stop.
Well, I'm at a workstation.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 00:16:19 -0000
From: "Phil Dack" <philipd@intonet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes & Genre conventions
I'm amazed that everyone so far has come up with suggestions which lie WITHIN
the hero system!
I don't believe that it is possible without a lot of fudging (ie, this luck
sfx) to make the HS fit in with genre conventions for one reason. The HS is
an inherently mathematical roleplaying system. That's part of its
wonderfully consistent beauty. But this inherent reliance on mathematical
balance will not allow convention to upset it, unless you go out and
a. enforce the convention as GM, or
b. change the rules.
Something I have wanted to work into HS for ages is the concept of luck
points/hero points / karma points etc., which feature in a lot of other
"heroic genre" games; Star Wars, Torg, DC Heroes, MSH and others.
e.g. *wham* Juggernaut hits Cyclops. 14d6...hmm, that's Cyc down and out.
OK, spend one hero point (or whatever) and each die is reduced by one / min.
damage results / whatever special effect you decide suits such a system.
Cyclops lives to fight another day.
Preventing abuse? One option: If a hero point isn't used HEROICALLY then it
never comes back. If you use it heroically, in story context, etc., it
returns. If you use it in a situation where you are putting yourself in
great danger for the sake of someone else, saving the world etc., you get an
extra one. Lucky thing.
I think the best example of this kind of system is Torg, where points can be
used to buy off 'levels' of damage, either stun, knock-out effects or killing
damage. Similarly in Champions, you could buy off stun, Body or knock back
(hmm, I'm prepared to take the damage but I'll buy off the knock back so that
I won't hurt that crowd of press photographers who are ALWAYS so close to the
action - heroic use).
Mechanics? Hey, don't ask me, I'm a philosopher.
Phil Dack (the very long-winded)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:50:14 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Upcoming campaign books
>The answers I got about the different campaigns mainly just described
>different ways that superpowers originated in that world. Is a different
>power source enough to distinguish one superhero campaign world from
>another? The last thing we need is yet another book which just describes a
That, when the powers come up, and how society responds to them certainly
can be. Scott Bennie's Gestalts campaign setting is, in some ways, a
fairly conventional superhero campaign, but the feel of it is very different
from others I've been in over the years.
>
>When you strip out the rule systems supported by each, there really isn't
>that much different between New Millennium and San Angelo. I mean, you can
>point out certain features of each (such as The Pit in NM) which are
>unique, and maybe one setting book covers a certain area much better than
>the other, but when you ask the question "What types of adventures will be
>played in this setting?", you'll come up with very similar answers for
>those two settings. Ditto for Champions Universe. So far, Hudson City is
>the only setting which has a unique answer to that question.
>
I think this is less an issue of setting than genre. The superhero genre
has certain tropes that tend to appear whatever the setting. By the time
you've stripped those out enough that you don't get similar adventures, I
think you not only have a new setting, you have a new genre.
>So what I'm wondering is: Will these 3 upcoming settings have their own
>unique answers to that question like Dark Champions does, or are we going
>to get 3 repeats of the answer for either San Angelo or New Millennium? If
This operates on the theory that Dark Champions has unique answers to that
question. I don't think it does. There are detail differences in how
characters will handle things, but a low powered orthodox superhero compaign
will have much the same kind of actual opposition and situations as DC.
------------------------------
Date: 4 Feb 99 18:33:21 MST
From: ANTHONY VARGAS <anthony.vargas@usa.net>
Subject: Re: [Re: Limitations on Multipowers]
owner-champ-l@sysabend.org wrote:
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>
> "ML" == Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>
> ML> Example: A focus providing 10/0 armor (15 active) would still have 3
def
> ML> vs energy.
>
> But only for itself; you do not get 3 rED out of the Focus. Just
> mentioning it so nobody gets any bright ideas. :)
>
> [...]
>
> ML> "Any Focus that provides defenses to the character is automatically
> ML> hit by any attack that hits the character." BBB softcover pg 106
>
> Yeah, I know. It makes Foci that provide defenses utterly useless.
Should probably get some kind of award for the 'Most ignored rule in
Hero System.' Or maybe, the 'Most broken rule to survive 4 Editions.'
____________________________________________________________________
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 15:38:38 -0800
From: Scott Bennie <sbennie@dowco.com>
Subject: Re: Upcoming campaign books
Well in terms of scope, Gestalt is not a citybook, it's a worldbook and tries
to describe the world in a lot of detail and describe how superhumans have
changed the world in their short ten years of existence.
In terms of tone, that's largely a GM call, but Gestalt tries to accentuate the
weirdness of the world, how unusual supers impact the world, in building a
sense of wonder and originality. What happens to a world if you have someone
who's superpower is the ability to get any politician elected, or to win any
law case, or to brew the perfect beer? Or convert any person to their religion?
Or to make any child happy no matter what the circumstances? How does society
react, and what special problems do they pose to a superhuman protector?
Especially when that superhuman isn't just a superhuman, but has an agenda
related to the archetype they represent?
Some people have called "Underground" and "Trinity" as superhero games dressed
up like something else. You can play Gestalt as a straight four-color world,
but if the GM wishes to explore some of the quirkier areas of the campaign,
Gestalt becomes "something else" dressed up as a superhero game.
Does that help, or is this just pretentious drivel?
Scott Bennie
David Stallard wrote:
> A week or two back, Hero Games listed at least 3 campaign settings for
> Champions that are in the works. I asked how these would stand out from
> the rest, because I was concerned that this was overkill--we already have
> Champions Universe, New Millennium, and San Angelo which cover pretty much
> the same ground (4-color), and then we have Hudson City (Dark Champions)
> for a gritty campaign.
>
> The answers I got about the different campaigns mainly just described
> different ways that superpowers originated in that world. Is a different
> power source enough to distinguish one superhero campaign world from
> another? The last thing we need is yet another book which just describes a
> city and its businesses/people/happenings (I may be the only one who thinks
> San Angelo is too heavy in details of the mundane), but I haven't heard
> anything yet to show that these 3 upcoming settings are more than that.
>
> When you strip out the rule systems supported by each, there really isn't
> that much different between New Millennium and San Angelo. I mean, you can
> point out certain features of each (such as The Pit in NM) which are
> unique, and maybe one setting book covers a certain area much better than
> the other, but when you ask the question "What types of adventures will be
> played in this setting?", you'll come up with very similar answers for
> those two settings. Ditto for Champions Universe. So far, Hudson City is
> the only setting which has a unique answer to that question.
>
> So what I'm wondering is: Will these 3 upcoming settings have their own
> unique answers to that question like Dark Champions does, or are we going
> to get 3 repeats of the answer for either San Angelo or New Millennium? If
> the answer is not somewhat different, then I think there may be a little
> bit of overkill happening in the campaign setting department.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 17:17:19 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: The 3d6- system sucks!
From: Phil Dack <philipd@intonet.co.uk>
>quick poll.
>
>does anyone else agree with me that it doesn't make sense that:
>
>a. 15 intelligence is twice that of 10 intelligence.
>b. Accomplishing a basic knowledge skill, 10 int has a barely decreased
>statistical change of success, 11- being only a little less likely that
12-.
>
>Or is it just me being petty?
I agree, in essence, at least. This is why I prefer to use rolls based upon
8+CHA/3, and don't consider a 15 INT twice a 10 INT.
Its also why I am almost ready to dump HERO System characteristics and rolls
for Fuzion. A lot more options, and a much greater difference between poor,
fair, good, great, and the very best _you_ will ever see.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 17:33:14 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: The 3d6- system sucks!
>quick poll.
>
>does anyone else agree with me that it doesn't make sense that:
>
>a. 15 intelligence is twice that of 10 intelligence.
>b. Accomplishing a basic knowledge skill, 10 int has a barely decreased
>statistical change of success, 11- being only a little less likely that 12-.
>
>Or is it just me being petty?
It's just you running into one of the conventions of the system. A punch
that only does more damage class is also from someone twice as strong. If
that sort of thing bothers you, the Hero System will give you endless headaches.
Also, do remember that with modifiers, that difference can either be far
more profound or even less so.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 19:53:19 EST
From: HeroGames@aol.com
Subject: Re: Upcoming campaign books
In a message dated 2/4/99 2:50:16 PM, DBStallard@compuserve.com writes:
>So what I'm wondering is: Will these 3 upcoming settings have their own
>unique answers to that question like Dark Champions does, or are we going
>to get 3 repeats of the answer for either San Angelo or New Millennium?
>If the answer is not somewhat different, then I think there may be a little
>bit of overkill happening in the campaign setting department.
>
The point is not to provide campaign settings that strive to be different
merely for the sake of being different, but to provide interesting campaign
settings that offer a compelling story line and characters in their own right.
We're not concerned that general types of adventures might be similar in
different campaign settings; after all, this is generally the case in comic
books from different companies, too. Regardless of whether or not you choose
to start a new campaign in one of these settings, each should provide plenty
of interesting material to mine for use in the campaign setting you're
running. So these campaign settings offer what all Champions books have
offered in the past: useful material for players and GMs to add to their
campaign. What these books offer in addition to that is a comprehensive,
coherent world-view that makes them a much more interesting read, to my mind,
than supplements that are striving to be more generic (and therefore don't
want to have strong stories or connections with other material).
I think Champions fans are eagerly awaiting new Strike Force material, at
least from the mail we've received. And I'm sure once Champions fans see Scott
Bennie's Gestalt material, they'll feel that it's a very cool setting, too.
Same with Jason Vester's TAROT setting. I certainly don't see how putting out
new Strike Force books, or a Gestalt campaign book, or the TAROT campaign is
going to cause any problems... except that the authors may not be able to
write fast enough to satisfy demands for more!
— Steve Peterson, Hero Games
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 17:45:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Filksinger writes:
> From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
> >Don't play a character with defenses that are half the minimum recomended
> >by the DC cap of the game. That is, if you are in a 12DC game, you should
> >have 12 PD and ED, minimum. If you have less than that... don't fight
> >70-Strength bricks, because eventually one of them will tag you.
>
>
> What's wrong with Damage Reduction, with the SFX of "Gets mostly out of the
> way"? Why is PD/ED the only viable method?
Shrug. As long as you have regeneration, taking 1-2 body from an average power
hit is acceptable. If you don't, I tend to agree that you should have enough
defenses to take zero body from an average attack at the normal DC cap of the
game, because you _will_ get hit.
------------------------------
Date: 4 Feb 99 18:27:22 MST
From: ANTHONY VARGAS <anthony.vargas@usa.net>
Subject: Re: [Re: Multipower Questions]
owner-champ-l@sysabend.org wrote:
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> x2 END on a Multipower reserve means, 'the powers in each slot in this
> Multipower cost x2 END to use'. Activation 14- on a Multipower reserve
means,
> 'the powers in each slot in this Multipower have 14- Activation roll'. 4
> Charges on a Multipower means, 'the powers in each slot in this Multipower
> may be used 4 times'.
You can't be serious.
2x END on a Multipower means, /any/ use of the Multipower is double END -
doesn't matter which slot you use.
Act 14- on a Multipower mean, if you want to use /anything/ in the
Multipower, it's a 14- roll to activate.
4 Chgs on a Multipower means, you can use this Multipower 4 times and
that's it.
OAF on a Multipower means, if someone takes away your OAF, the whole
Multipower is gone.
A Multipower with 2xEND on one slot, Act 14- on another, 8chgs on a third,
and OIF on the last, has a 1/2 limitation on each slot, but the Reserve
gets no bonus. Why? Because they're /different/ limitations. Losing
the OIF won't keep you from using the Act 14- slot, running out of END
won't keep you from using the slot with charges. Right? It'd be silly
to give that 1/2 bonus to the Reserve.
A Multipower with 4 slots, each with 4 charges, is in the same situation.
Each slot has a different limitation. What? They all have '4 charges?'
Well sure, the name of the limitation is the same. 'Doesn't Work durring
the day' and 'Only works durring the Day' are both 'Limited' limitations -
that's the name of it. They're each good for a -1. Anyone want to argue
they're 'the same' limitation?
Same thing with 4 charges. If one of the slots in an EB and another,
an RKA, the 4 charges on the EB really mean 'cannot be used after the EB
has been used 4 times without recovering it's charges.' And the 4 charges
of RKA are really 'cannot be used after the RKA has been used 4 times
without recovering it's charges.' When the limitation of on one slot
comes up, it doesn't come up for any of the others. They're not the
same limitation.
OTOH, putting a single limitation - like 4 charges, on the Multipower
as a whole, is perfectly reasonable, and gives you a Multipower that
can be used exactly 4 times. Clearly more restrictive and (gasp) it
saves you more points.
____________________________________________________________________
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1
------------------------------
Date: 4 Feb 99 19:40:19 MST
From: ANTHONY VARGAS <anthony.vargas@usa.net>
Subject: Re: [Re: Limitations on Multipowers]
> >I would say you're wrong on this one Rat.
> >You lose 1d6 per hex you fill. An EB that is spread one die is exactly
> >like an AoE: Hex; selective. He'd have to roll to hit each focus.
>
> That's my take on it; if you cram a whole bunch of people into a hex, I let
> you try to hit each of them too.
I don't remember the actual rule. But I think -1d per hex, but -2 OCV
per target after the first, would make more sense (jibing with Sweep,
for instance).
Just IMHO...
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 18:00:52 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
<snip>
>> What's wrong with Damage Reduction, with the SFX of "Gets mostly out of
the
>> way"? Why is PD/ED the only viable method?
>
>Shrug. As long as you have regeneration, taking 1-2 body from an average
power
>hit is acceptable.
It has been suggested that doctors, professional healers, field surgeons,
and other people who can stop internal bleeding and stitch people up be able
to restore 1 BODY per hit. This will allow you to get pretty banged up, but
if each attack does only a little BODY, you can be back in action fairly
fast.
>If you don't, I tend to agree that you should have enough
>defenses to take zero body from an average attack at the normal DC cap of
the
>game, because you _will_ get hit.
Of course you will. However, if you have a high DCV or tactics of standing
far away and shooting opponents from a distance, then you will get hit
seldom. My suggestion was merely how to keep a character whose conception
calls for very low defenses alive and able to return to heroing soon, when
that big hit finally came.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 20:20:46 -0500 (EST)
From: tdj723@webtv.net (thomas deja)
Subject: Re: Genre vs. Medium (Was Re: Normal Men as Superheroes)
>From: sbennie@dowco.com (Scott Bennie)
>> If the GM fudges a fight so a brick will
>> always challenge a fight and a brittle
>> character is never in serious danger; that's
>> wrong from a *game* standpoint (particularly
>> if one believes the tactical component is
>> important), and it's also bad as far as
>> drama's concerned. Battles require threat
>> and challenge to be memorable, to be, dare
>> I say, dramatic. Otherwise, why bother with
>> them?
...and the thing everybody seems to be forgetting is that, since we're
dealing with an RPG--by definition a social activity--the brittle
character wil rarely have to go up against the hulking bruiser alone.
And there are ways for the brittle martial artist to gain a form of
leverage on the bruiser--utilizing pressure points to disable him,
utilizing his environment to hinder him, etc. I had a situation in my
PBeM where the detective type had to go up against a brick who's damn
near unstoppable as long as he's on the ground. The detective found a
way to freeze the geek, giving him enough time to rouse his
comrades....so there are way.
Personally, I find players enjoy these kinds of confrontations because
it makes them think, and gives them a sense of true accomplishment after
winning.
>>And also, why does everyone have the
>> impression that Cyke is all *that* brittle?
>> How can anyone who as brittle as people
>> thinks Cyclops is, survive so many years of
>> Danger Room training? He's good, but he's
>> not perfect, and it's not called a "danger"
>> room for nothing. At the very least he's
>> upper-top end normal; probably no lower
>> than 7 PD/ED..
...and I can't help thinking that the X-Men, with its ties to a
star-spanning galactic empire and their evolution in the last few years
into what is a paramilitary organization don't have some form of
ultralight, ultratough body armor....
"Many bears talk"
"Somehow I wouldn't have reckoned they had a lot to say."
"Talk Goddamn head off. Always got something to say about bees."
- --Jonah Hex and Spotted Balls, JONAH HEX: SHADOWS WEST
_______________________________
An except from the new story "The Smoking Glass Grin" can now be found
at MAKE UP YOUR OWN DAMN TITLE
www.freeyellow.com/members/tdj, along with "The Net," a complete story
from the archives....you've been warned.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 17:55:57 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filksinger@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
<snip>
>
>By your reasoning, the Batman, as a member of the LSH, should be dead a
>hundred times over. The reason he is not is because he never directly
>confronts someone vastly more powerful than himself[1]. Such an attack
>will never splatter him because he is never anywhere near where it could
>happen. Instead, Superman will be up front keeping such a villain busy
>while the Batman is doing something clever.
>
>
>[1]On the rare occasions that he does, he has some specially prepared
>gadget to even the odds.
Batman went up against the Hulk and attacked him unarmed hand to hand. Care
to try again?
super_heroes_ go up against opponents vastly more powerful, or at least
capable of dealing out way to much damage, all the time. They survive by
fighting defensively, true, but even if the opponent is fighting all out,
the hero still survives, because he somehow avoids being splatted by
partially dodging the attack.
Hero Games suggested Damage Reduction quite a while ago for heroes or
villains who didn't appear superhuman, but somehow kept on coming. What's
wrong with that?
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 19:58:53 -0600 (EST)
From: Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
>> And how do you propose enforcing this aspect ofthe genre in a game? Do
>> you ensure that the low DEF PC never meets the high-STR NPC brick?
>
>By never having the high-STR NPC brick go directly after low-DEF PC, thus
>obviating the fudging of dice or railroading the PCs. Of course, if said
>PC is foolish enough to challenge said NPC, the first time I will fudge it
>a bit by having the NPC simply brush away the insignificant insect with
>casual Strength. If the PC keeps pressing in, well, by that point he
>should know better.
That works for NPC Bricks who have some sort of Psychological Limitation,
but what about Mr. Grey-Green-Berserk-Guy? Just as Berserk says, he goes
around pounding each standing target with his most familiar attack (his
16d6 Strike seems familiar enough).
Warping the psychology of ALL of your villainous bricks to protect the
lives of the low-DEF PCs in the group is... well, wrong. Especially in
a darker-than-mid-80s-DC-four-color campaigns.
There's something to be said, though, for implementing some sort of
rule about mass, total PD, and maximum damage taken from a direct hit.
Just as your punching a fly _in the air_ will knock it back but not
kill it, being punched (instead of smushed against the ground) should
probably have slightly reworked mechanics.
I don't want to see discussion of "long muscles", exhaust gases, or any
of the other physics of "force meets movable object -- what happens?";
someone suggest some nice, clean, usable mechanics.
For example, one might be:
Maximum DC of a non-martial strike =
target's (BODY + STR + CON) / 3
+ target's rPD or PD/5, whichever is higher
- target's (levels in shrinking) * 3
+ target's (levels in growth)
+ target's KB resistance (clinging counts here, as does density increase)
Excess STR converts into knockback at a 1" / 5 STR rate
- -----
What do you think?
Donald
------------------------------
Date: 4 Feb 99 19:30:46 MST
From: ANTHONY VARGAS <anthony.vargas@usa.net>
Subject: Re: [Re: Multipower Questions]
> From: Jesse Thomas <haerandir@hotmail.com>
> Agreed, we have a different paradigm for the problem. I would probably agree
> with your paradigm, as probably being the better one, save that the rules
> stated it the other way around. The rules specifically state that if the
> Limitation is applied to all slots, then the reduced cost can be applied to
> the Multipower pool; not if applied to the pool, it reduces the cost of all
> slots.
It's if the /same/ limitation is applied to all slots. Charges aplied
to one slot are not really the same limitation as Charges aplied to
a different slot. Charges of Multipower, though are the same... I
stated this more clearly in an earlier post today....
Anyway, once you look at it that way, the phrasing of the book is just
fine.
> >Thus, if the multipower
> >doesn't work in the rain, has 4 charges, or is a Focus, then the slots
> >also get the benefit of the limitation. These are the "freebies", and I
> >have no problem with them, 'cause the rules say they're OK.
>
> Essentially I agree here as well. I read the rules as stating that
> Limitations that apply to all slots reduce the cost of the Multipower pool.
> If the rules stated it the other way around, I'd go with that. In fact, I
> agree it would probably be better, and should probably be presented to Steve
> Long as a recommended rules change/clarification.
>
> Filksinger
You can't be too rich or too thin, and an RPG can't be too clear or
too consistent. ;)
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 20:45:20 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: New Martial arts package
At 12:43 AM 2/5/1999 GMT, Acid Rainbow wrote:
> Well, here's a Martial Arts package I just came up with for flyers or
>swingers.
A martial arts package for swingers? Shagadelic, baby!
Damon
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 17:29:57 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Genre vs. Medium (Was Re: Normal Men as Superheroes)
>>From: sbennie@dowco.com (Scott Bennie)
>
>>> If the GM fudges a fight so a brick will
>>> always challenge a fight and a brittle
>>> character is never in serious danger; that's
>>> wrong from a *game* standpoint (particularly
>>> if one believes the tactical component is
>>> important), and it's also bad as far as
>>> drama's concerned. Battles require threat
>>> and challenge to be memorable, to be, dare
>>> I say, dramatic. Otherwise, why bother with
>>> them?
>
>...and the thing everybody seems to be forgetting is that, since we're
>dealing with an RPG--by definition a social activity--the brittle
>character wil rarely have to go up against the hulking bruiser alone.
That doesn't mean events won't force him to be the one to have to deal with
him. Games don't run on scripts.
>And there are ways for the brittle martial artist to gain a form of
>leverage on the bruiser--utilizing pressure points to disable him,
>utilizing his environment to hinder him, etc. I had a situation in my
>PBeM where the detective type had to go up against a brick who's damn
>near unstoppable as long as he's on the ground. The detective found a
>way to freeze the geek, giving him enough time to rouse his
>comrades....so there are way.
>
>Personally, I find players enjoy these kinds of confrontations because
>it makes them think, and gives them a sense of true accomplishment after
>winning.
Right up until the point it doesn't work out. Nor is it always that tidy;
there's no promise that such a way exists.
>...and I can't help thinking that the X-Men, with its ties to a
>star-spanning galactic empire and their evolution in the last few years
>into what is a paramilitary organization don't have some form of
>ultralight, ultratough body armor....
Supposedly they do, these days. Of course that doesn't answer the question
of how he got along for all those years.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 18:51:13 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: [Re: Limitations on Multipowers]
>> >I would say you're wrong on this one Rat.
>> >You lose 1d6 per hex you fill. An EB that is spread one die is exactly
>> >like an AoE: Hex; selective. He'd have to roll to hit each focus.
>>
>> That's my take on it; if you cram a whole bunch of people into a hex, I let
>> you try to hit each of them too.
>
>
>I don't remember the actual rule. But I think -1d per hex, but -2 OCV
>per target after the first, would make more sense (jibing with Sweep,
>for instance).
Depends on whether you view it more analogous to Autofire or a 1 Hex
Unselective area; I tend to view it as the latter.
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #185
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