Digest Archives Vol 1 Issue 190
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 1999 1:11 AM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #190
champ-l-digest Saturday, February 6 1999 Volume 01 : Number 190
In this issue:
Re: [New Martial arts package]
Re: [Re: [Re: Multipower Questions]]
Re: blocking the heavy hits
Re: blocking the heavy hits
Re: blocking the heavy hits
Re: The 3d6- system sucks!
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: blocking the heavy hits
Re: [Re: The 3d6- system sucks!]
Re: Mind Link Question
Re: blocking the heavy hits
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: [Re: [Re: Multipower Questions]]
RE: blocking the heavy hits
Re: blocking the heavy hits
Re: blocking the heavy hits
Re: blocking the heavy hits
Re: blocking the heavy hits
Re: blocking the heavy hits
Re: [Re: The 3d6- system sucks!]
Re: Desolidification
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: blocking the heavy hits
Re: [Re: Multipower Questions]
Re: Genre vs. Medium (Was Re: Normal Men as Superheroes)
Re: Multipower Questions
Re: Help!!!!
RE: Multipower Questions
RE: blocking the heavy hits
Re: Desolidification
RE: The 3d6- system sucks!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 5 Feb 99 17:22:25 MST
From: ANTHONY VARGAS <anthony.vargas@usa.net>
Subject: Re: [New Martial arts package]
owner-champ-l@sysabend.org wrote:
> Well, here's a Martial Arts package I just came up with for flyers or
> swingers.
> MA: Aerial Combat
> Maneuver Cost OCV DCV Effect
> Evasive action 4 +0 +5 Dodge/abort
> Flying Kick 5 -2 -2 STR + v/3, FMove, You take 1/4 dmg
> Flying Strike 5 +1 +0 STR + v/5, FMove
> Flying Takeaway 5 -2 +0 Grab Weapon, STR + v/5, FMove
>
> Evasive action is simply a martial dodge.
Cute. Evasive action would, I think be more useful to a movement-based
character if it allowed a Full Move (though it would make the are kinda
'samey') ;)
Evasive Action 5 - +4 Dodge, FMove
One of the 'obvious' manuevers that was missing in Ninja Hero (along
with a Riposte (+2/+2/+2d Strike Follows Block). Both made it into
UMA as 'Flying Dodge' and (surprise) 'Riposte' ...
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------------------------------
Date: 5 Feb 99 16:57:27 MST
From: ANTHONY VARGAS <anthony.vargas@usa.net>
Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: Multipower Questions]]
> AV> 2x END on a Multipower means, /any/ use of the Multipower is double END
- -
> AV> doesn't matter which slot you use.
> But switching slots does not require x2 END expenditure (not that it costs
> any END... :). The Multipower framework is limited, not the reserve.
Switching slots isn't really /doing/ anything, it's just deciding which
power you'll use this turn. Any time you /use/ the Multipower you'll
pay 2x END. If you have point, I don't see it.
> AV> 4 Chgs on a Multipower means, you can use this Multipower 4 times and
> AV> that's it.
>
> If you put x2 END on a Multipower framework, each slot gets the x2 END
> limitation. If you put 14- Activation on a Multipower framework, each slot
> gets the 14- Activation limitation. Pick any limitation in the book; if
> you put it on the Multipower framework, each slot gets that limitation.
>
> If you put 4 Charges on a Multipower framework, each slot gets 4 Charges.
>
> If not, you are treating Charges differently from every other limitation in
> the book.
Nope. Treating them just like Limited, actually. Would you accept:
25 Multipower 50Apts, Limited -1
2 u 10d EB, Limited (only durring the day) -1
2 u 10d EB, Limited (not durring the day) -1
?
Becuase, this is every bit as legitimate (ie laughable) as putting 4
charges on both slots of a Multipower, for a total of 8 charges between
them, and extending it to the Reserve because it's the 'same' limitation.
> AV> OAF on a Multipower means, if someone takes away your OAF, the whole
> AV> Multipower is gone.
>
> Because a Multipower with Focus is considered to be a single power. This
> is the only 'exception', and it is not really an exception but a
> clarification.
That reference, as you know, is to a Multipower bought through a focus,
/with regards to how much body it can take/ the Multipower is a single
function.
You can certainly put a limitation on a slot or two of a Multipower,
rather than the whole thing. The point being that, if you put various
foci limitations on the slots of a Multipower, they're not going to
extend to the reserve.
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 02:04:59 +0100
From: Black Bishop <BISHOP@bdc2.sirnet.it>
Subject: Re: blocking the heavy hits
At 11.45 05/02/99 -0600, you wrote:
>
>>uhm... wait a moment. I have seen, both in comics and in other
>>genres/media, scenes where person A has tried to block person B's atatck
>>and falied miserably because person B's blow was too
>>powerful/strong/heavy. Happens in fantasy a lot. Hapless redshirt puts
>>up his word in an attempt to block Stormbringer (or Conan) and the sword
>>blow plows right through the blocking sword (or, sometimes shield) and
>>hits anyway.
>
>
>
>>As a side note, I remember "The Wierd", where Batman blocked Superman's
>>blow and broke both forearms in the process. How do you model that? A
>>failed block? Yet he didn't take full damage from the attack. Hmm..
>>Filksinger? This looks like your realm.
>
>
It is a good question... hmmm... what about take HALF damage ? I mean half
of Potential damage and then apply the defense.
It allows to similar-power people to block without damage, but of course it
allow Thor or Supes to bash you even you block the blow
WHAT you think about it ?!?!?!
Thank ya all
B-Bishop
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 17:20:22 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: blocking the heavy hits
From: Black Bishop <BISHOP@bdc2.sirnet.it>
<snip>
>It is a good question... hmmm... what about take HALF damage ? I mean half
>of Potential damage and then apply the defense.
>It allows to similar-power people to block without damage, but of course it
>allow Thor or Supes to bash you even you block the blow
>WHAT you think about it ?!?!?!
It would be a workable house rule, save that you would need to make it
easier to use. Right now, the choice between Dodge and Block is fairly even.
Remove a significant part of the advantage of Block, and it suddenly isn't
worth it. It also strongly resembled "Roll with Punch".
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: 05 Feb 1999 20:20:27 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: blocking the heavy hits
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"MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@otd.com> writes:
>> Because Superman did not use his full strength.
MS> That I don't buy. You can't just keep saying that for *every* example.
Why not? When it is a consistent answer that works for every example,
there has to be some merit in it.
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------------------------------
Date: 5 Feb 99 19:03:10 MST
From: ANTHONY VARGAS <anthony.vargas@usa.net>
Subject: Re: The 3d6- system sucks!
> In almost any field, you will find people who are skilled at the job, and
> others who can consistently do things that the merely skilled find utterly
> impossible. The bell curve is not enough to simulate that, in its present
> form; it doesn't come close.
>
> Filksinger
So, we want a system in which a character who's overmatched to a specific
degree simply has no chance of success? Not very dramatic, IMHO.
Though it may be more realistic for characters to face cut-and-dried
no-win situations, I think a game goes better if there's some chance
of success, be it 97% or 20%.
At least all those nigh-god-beings who gloat "Foolish mortals! You have
/no chance/ against me! Bwahahahah!" wouldn't look so silly after the
fight's over...
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------------------------------
Date: 05 Feb 1999 20:36:58 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
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"F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
F> That's a decent one. I'd prefer Damage Reduction. My original suggestion
F> wasn't intended to reduce all damage, however, only to avoid death
F> without appearing superhuman.
I suggest being a good GM and not putting PCs into situations where such
hacks are required to keep them alive.
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------------------------------
Date: 05 Feb 1999 20:27:52 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: blocking the heavy hits
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"F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
F> Maybe Batman bought the power, "50% Damage Reduction, BODY only, only vs
F> attacks that do 1x BODY or greater", for just such emergencies?
Batman is a highly skilled but pysically normal person. That means he
cannot buy powers. Please justify the discrepancy between character
concept and violation of character concept.
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------------------------------
Date: 5 Feb 99 19:00:17 MST
From: ANTHONY VARGAS <anthony.vargas@usa.net>
Subject: Re: [Re: The 3d6- system sucks!]
> Its not neccessarily, its just that one tends to react less poorly to
> way strength is set up than any other characteristic. What was missed in
> the post about Intelligence is that +5 points of INT does NOT neccessarily
> make you smarter, it makes you quicker of thought and better of memory,
> which changes to me at least how it feels. If you say that 10 INT is 100
> IQ and 15 INT is 200 IQ (double the intelligence for the purposes of this
> argument, IQ actually measures... how well you take IQ tests) then it looks
And, IQ is not nescisarily a linear measure, itself, either. How's it
calculated, anyway?
> godawful to say that you only get +1 to your roll. But if you say it
> doubles your ability of recollection and how quickly you percieve and
> respond mentally, it is less offensive.
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------------------------------
Date: 05 Feb 1999 20:52:55 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Mind Link Question
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"EE" == Ell Egyptoid <egyptoid@yahoo.com> writes:
EE> We had so many telepaths in the J.L.Alabama game
EE> that we had this argument. Do you know how we solved it?
I'd look at the master powers chart in my rulebook:
Mind Link Duration: Persistent
Persistent powers, by definition, cost no END to use or maintain.
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------------------------------
Date: 05 Feb 1999 20:24:23 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: blocking the heavy hits
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"BW" == Brian Wawrow <bwawrow@mondello.toronto.fmco.com> writes:
BW> What if your special effect is that you physically *block* the attack.
That is a perfectly valid effect for Block, too. But Blocking an attack
does not require blocking the attack. Block is a maneuver. It has special
effects just like everything else in the system.
[...]
BW> I understand that there's nothing in the rules that says you may have a
BW> problem blocking super heavy attacks. I'm bringing this up in the
BW> interest of realism.
In the kind of Universe in which Galactus exists, you ask for realism.
There is something very wrong about that, I think.
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------------------------------
Date: 05 Feb 1999 20:40:40 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
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"SN" == Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com> writes:
SN> And however much it might be a part of that genre, this is a game,
SN> not a comic book, as Scott Bennie pointed out. As with movies
SN> made from books, some things don't translate all that well.
Go read the frequently mentioned X-Men, or any other team title. "Brittle"
characters stay back and blast away at range, tough bricks move up close to
keep the other tough bricks occupied. Speed-demons and martial artists
move in and out of range quickly before slower bricks can connect.
Sounds like any well-balance superteam, be it in a game or a comic.
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
------------------------------
Date: 05 Feb 1999 20:35:35 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
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"MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@otd.com> writes:
MS> Whoa... what about "Total" psych lims? What about the fact that the
MS> reason they are psych lims is becuase they are "Limitations" which may
MS> 'force' the character to do things the PC wouldn't do. This includes
MS> 'stupid' things (which some people might call 'heroic' things).
Take someone like the Batman and give him a really powerful 'protect
innocents' psych lim. Set a 70-strength brick about to pulverize a
construction worker. Is he going to walk up and tap the brick on the
kneecap, or is he going to do something clever like throwing a spiffy
gadget which will cause something large and heavy to fall onto the head of
said brick? My money is on the 'doing something clever', which is both
intelligent and in keeping with his disadvantages.
There is nothing in the description of Psychological Limitation that
requires a character act stupidly. There is nothing that prevents a
character from acting intelligently when under the duress of a
Psychological Limitation.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball.
------------------------------
Date: 05 Feb 1999 20:49:35 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: Multipower Questions]]
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"AV" == ANTHONY VARGAS <anthony.vargas@usa.net> writes:
AV> Nope. Treating them just like Limited, actually. Would you accept:
AV> 25 Multipower 50Apts, Limited -1
AV> 2 u 10d EB, Limited (only durring the day) -1
AV> 2 u 10d EB, Limited (not durring the day) -1
Hell! no. The *EXACT* limitation on the reserve is the limitation that is
put on the slots[1]. "Limited", "Only during the day" and "not during the
day" are three different limitations, so this construct would properly be:
50 Multipower 50 AP
2 u 10d6 EB, Only during the day (-1)
2 u 10d6 EB, Only at night (-1)
[1]Personally, I would allow a more restrictive form of a given limitation
to be placed on the slots. That is, if the Framework has 14- Activation, I
would have no problem with a slot that has 11- Activation.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 20:47:51 -0500 (EST)
From: tdj723@webtv.net (thomas deja)
Subject: RE: blocking the heavy hits
>From: bwawrow@mondello.toronto.fmco.com (Brian Wawrow)
>>[B] Thor takes a crack at you with his
>> hammer Mjolnyr, that no mortal [except the
>> Hulk] can even lift. If he misses you, he's
>> going to level the building you're standing in
>> front of.
Uh, actually, Brian.....Mjjolinor's inability to be lifted is a special
effect of its enchantment and not its weight/hardness. If the person
picking up the hammer is worthy, he can lift it--people ho have done
this include Beta-Ray Bill and Captain America.
Of course, being one of the five strongest beings on Marvel Earth, Thor
using Mjolinor to hit you will probably level a building or two.....but
if you're worthy, you can lift it afterwards.
"Many bears talk"
"Somehow I wouldn't have reckoned they had a lot to say."
"Talk Goddamn head off. Always got something to say about bees."
- --Jonah Hex and Spotted Balls, JONAH HEX: SHADOWS WEST
_______________________________
An except from the new story "The Smoking Glass Grin" can now be found
at MAKE UP YOUR OWN DAMN TITLE
www.freeyellow.com/members/tdj, along with "The Net," a complete story
from the archives....you've been warned.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 03:15:03 +0100
From: Black Bishop <BISHOP@bdc2.sirnet.it>
Subject: Re: blocking the heavy hits
At 17.20 05/02/99 -0800, you wrote:
>From: Black Bishop <BISHOP@bdc2.sirnet.it>
>
>
><snip>
>>It is a good question... hmmm... what about take HALF damage ? I mean half
>>of Potential damage and then apply the defense.
>>It allows to similar-power people to block without damage, but of course it
>>allow Thor or Supes to bash you even you block the blow
>>WHAT you think about it ?!?!?!
>
>
>It would be a workable house rule, save that you would need to make it
>easier to use. Right now, the choice between Dodge and Block is fairly even.
>Remove a significant part of the advantage of Block, and it suddenly isn't
>worth it. It also strongly resembled "Roll with Punch".
>
>Filksinger
>
>
I don't think so. I mean, between dodge and block right now is better
block, than allow you to begin first next phase too.
I think also now Dodge and Block are fairl even
And with Roll with a Punch isn't so good, and I think it is more realistic
By the way thank you for the critics =))) I love good critics =))))
See ya
B-Bishop
------------------------------
Date: 05 Feb 1999 22:06:03 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: blocking the heavy hits
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"BB" == Black Bishop <BISHOP@bdc2.sirnet.it> writes:
BB> WHAT you think about it ?!?!?!
I think that I would be seriously pissed at a GM that made a character of
mine eat damage that he successfully avoided.
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 21:41:05 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: Re: blocking the heavy hits
>F> Maybe Batman bought the power, "50% Damage Reduction, BODY only, only vs
>F> attacks that do 1x BODY or greater", for just such emergencies?
>
>Batman is a highly skilled but pysically normal person. That means he
>cannot buy powers. Please justify the discrepancy between character
>concept and violation of character concept.
Batman's 'character concept' is a piece of literature. Your concept
of the violation is a piece of game mechanics. They are not necessarily
compatible. The rules are a guideline, not a universal statute.
Unless you want to argue the infallibility of the Game Designer. But I doubt
that even George MacDonald, Steve Peterson and Rob Bell would agree.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(What like a bullet can undeceive!)
But now they lie low,
While over them the swallows skim,
And all is hushed at Shiloh.
Herman Melville, Shiloh, A Requiem (April 1862)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scott C. Nolan
nolan@erols.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 20:02:28 -0600 (CST)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: blocking the heavy hits
On 5 Feb 1999, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> "MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@otd.com> writes:
>
> MS> uhm... wait a moment. I have seen, both in comics and in other
> MS> genres/media, scenes where person A has tried to block person B's atatck
> MS> and falied miserably because person B's blow was too
> MS> powerful/strong/heavy. Happens in fantasy a lot.
>
> Person A failed his Block roll. Happens a lot the other way, too, both in
> fiction and real life.
Er...but I think the point would be that if Person B wasn't as strong as
they were, that the block would have worked. Also, there's no mechanism
in HERO for making Blocks more difficult based on the strength of the
attacker.
So, it's just as easy for Epee Guy to block a hit from another fencer as
it is for him to block a strike from Conan and his mighty thews. (Assuming
the fencer and Conan have equal OCVs).
> MS> As a side note, I remember "The Wierd", where Batman blocked Superman's
> MS> blow and broke both forearms in the process. How do you model that? A
> MS> failed block? Yet he didn't take full damage from the attack.
>
> Because Superman did not use his full strength.
Wha-? No, you misunderstand.
Superman attacked Bats. He would have done a certain amount of damage
(probably killing Batman), BUT Batman managed to block the blow. He broke
both forearms, but did not take the full force of the blow.Superman did
not suddenly cut back on the amount of strength he was using when Batman
blocked, or tried to block.
Basically, what I think people are wondering about is, is there a 'break
through blocks' maneuver that will allow you to damage people even if they
successfully do a block. There's no rule in HERO, but if I wanted to
write it up as a power, here's what I'd do:
+X OCV in Hand-to-Hand, only for defeating blocks (-1 1/2 maybe? More?).
Possibly also a limitation saying '+1 OCV usable for every 5 STR over the
blockers STR' (-1/2? More?) Thus, if a STR 60 man attacked a STR 20 man,
the stronger guy could use +4 OCV to 'get around' the guys block.
Then, if the blocker's block would have blocked the blow without that OCV
bonus, the GM can say that 'the block would have worked, but the blow was
too powerful...it pushes the sword aside and strikes home'.
Alternately, make those HTH levels usable only for defeating blocks /or/
for Damage (probably a -3/4, maybe -1 limitation). That way, if he has to
use OCV to defeat a block, the blow won't be as strong. That way, the
Block 'partially works'.
J
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj
------------------------------
Date: 05 Feb 1999 22:38:29 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: blocking the heavy hits
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"N" == Nuncheon <jeffj@io.com> writes:
N> Er...but I think the point would be that if Person B wasn't as strong as
N> they were, that the block would have worked. Also, there's no mechanism
N> in HERO for making Blocks more difficult based on the strength of the
N> attacker.
Ask any student of Aikido, he'll tell you that the strength of an attacker
is largely irrelevant to neutralizing his attack. Making Blocks more
difficult based on the strength of the attacker is just plain wrong.
N> So, it's just as easy for Epee Guy to block a hit from another fencer as
N> it is for him to block a strike from Conan and his mighty thews. (Assuming
N> the fencer and Conan have equal OCVs).
Assuming Epee Guy's epee is sufficiently strong to withstand being hit by
Conan's blade, yes.
You see, Block is not about stopping an attack; that is the realm of
defensive powers. Block is a compliment to Dodge. Dodge puts you
somewhere other than where the attack is; Block (and Missile Deflection)
puts the attack somewhere other than where you are.
[...]
N> Superman attacked Bats. He would have done a certain amount of damage
N> (probably killing Batman), BUT Batman managed to block the blow. He broke
N> both forearms,
Then Batman did *NOT* Block the blow. If Batman had successfully Blocked
the blow, he would have taken *NO* damage. Something else happened. My
take is that he failed the Block roll. And because Superman would never
use more than his casual Strength against Batman, all that happened was his
arms were broken (special effect of a failed Block).
I like my answer better than yours.
Your way. Batman has 8PD and your 50% DR hack, and figure 12 Body;
Superman has 100 strength (20d6 punch). Superman hits Batman, does 20 Body
and enough Stun to put Batman into a coma for a week. Batman takes 20 - 8
= 12, halved for the DR is 6 Body. That is a hell of a lot more damage
than a pair of broken arms; that's half his total Body. His arms should be
shredded, they take that much damage. Then there is the ~13 inches of
knockback, which after defenses will be another 2 or 3 Body Batman takes if
the Damage Reduction applies, more if not. So by your method, Batman will
be down at least 8 Body and comatose for a week.
My way. Same values for everything except no DR. Superman fires off a
casual Strength punch, 10d6. Batman takes ~10 - 8 = 2 Body, maybe 3 or 4
for the kind of solid hit you describe (Supes rolled a few 6s), and around
30-35 Stun. 2-4 Body is much more appropriate for a couple of broken arms,
I think. Then ~3-5 inches knockback, Batman can take that. So by my
method, Batman is down 2-4 Body, he'll be stunned silly, unconscious for a
bit, and his arms will be in casts for a week or three.
You tell me which more accurately describes the aftermath of the situation
you described.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
------------------------------
Date: 05 Feb 1999 22:41:33 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: [Re: The 3d6- system sucks!]
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"AV" == ANTHONY VARGAS <anthony.vargas@usa.net> writes:
AV> And, IQ is not nescisarily a linear measure, itself, either. How's it
AV> calculated, anyway?
Badly :).
The real-world IQ scale is based on a set of standardized tests that test
not knowledge or intelligence but ability to think along the same lines as
the test. Problem is, there are many different ways of thinking, ways
which are either not represented or impossible to represent on standardized
tests.
Take IQ with a grain of salt, and figure that what a character knows is
represented by the skills he posesses.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 19:54:10 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Desolidification
>question???
>
>When in desol, could a mentalist use his powers to effect people
> or would he have to by the +2 advantage, affects real world to do so?
The latter. It's still too good a trick, otherwise.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 20:19:57 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
>I'd actually probably be comfortable with simply buying PD and ED
>defined as "genre defenses." Automatic rolling with the blow, as it
>were. That'd require a strong GM hand to avoid twinkism, but it would
>certainly be the simplest way to simulate the genre convention.
Honestly, if you aren't bothered by the effect of a high normal range PD or
ED, a combination of that and an amount of body armor that seems well within
the range of our technology can leave a comparatively low defense type quite
survivable...though he may spend a lot of time unconscious. A 12 Body
character with a 6 PD and 6 Def armored costume is fairly unlikely to get
killed even if the brick rolls well, though it's not impossible...and unless
the opposition is deliberately murderous, once he gets hit he'll probably go
down so people don't have to hit him again. He may get bunged up more than
your routine hero, but that's the price you pay for that sort of thing.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 20:40:14 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: blocking the heavy hits
>Hi,
>
>So, given the conversation about bricks vs. martial artists, I have a
>question about blocking. When is a hit too heavy to block? How do you
>decide?
At least in superheroic games, I don't, to be honest. In many ways the
block is already less attractive than the dodge, so I saw no reason to make
it even moreso.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 20:13:06 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: [Re: Multipower Questions]
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>"AV" == ANTHONY VARGAS <anthony.vargas@usa.net> writes:
>
>AV> 2x END on a Multipower means, /any/ use of the Multipower is double END -
>AV> doesn't matter which slot you use.
>
>But switching slots does not require x2 END expenditure (not that it costs
>any END... :). The Multipower framework is limited, not the reserve.
The difference is, here there is in practice no distinction between the two.
>
>AV> Act 14- on a Multipower mean, if you want to use /anything/ in the
>AV> Multipower, it's a 14- roll to activate.
>
>But switching slots does not require an activation roll. The Multipower
>framework is limited, not the reserve.
And switching slots wouldn't cost you a Charge, either. It'd just use
another one if you used it...just like using the power would require an
Activation or cost the Endurance.
>
>AV> 4 Chgs on a Multipower means, you can use this Multipower 4 times and
>AV> that's it.
>
>If you put x2 END on a Multipower framework, each slot gets the x2 END
>limitation. If you put 14- Activation on a Multipower framework, each slot
>gets the 14- Activation limitation. Pick any limitation in the book; if
>you put it on the Multipower framework, each slot gets that limitation.
Because, with any other ability (Except for Burnout) there's essentially no
difference between the two statements.
>
>If you put 4 Charges on a Multipower framework, each slot gets 4 Charges.
>
>If not, you are treating Charges differently from every other limitation in
>the book.
Or simply noting that Charges and Burnout are the only cases where this is
relevant.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 20:00:42 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Genre vs. Medium (Was Re: Normal Men as Superheroes)
>From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
>
>>>...and the thing everybody seems to be
>>> forgetting is that, since we're dealing with an
>>> RPG--by definition a social activity--the >>brittle character wil
>rarely have to go up >>against the hulking bruiser alone.
>
>>That doesn't mean events won't force him to
>> be the one to have to deal with him. Games
>> don't run on scripts.
>
>Well, they run on scripts, albeit a much more freeform one--and there
>are ways to skew things without making the environment totally in the
>brittle character's favor....I've faced down bricks in my day with
>low-DEF characters by, to use one example, using their psychological
>hang-ups against them so I can keep my distance. *Any* player who's
>smart and aware of the game environment can find a way to avoid being
>squished without GM fiat--if worse comes to worse, running away to
>regroup is not without precedence in comic book land....
>
And still may not be possible, or acceptable at least. It's also not a
given that you'll know enough about a given brick opponent to be able to
pull that effectively. I'm very dubious about any suggestion that such
things can be avoided indefinitely without GM intervetion. I've seen things
turn around oddly too often during games.
>>>Personally, I find players enjoy these kinds of
>>> confrontations because it makes them think,
>>> and gives them a sense of true
> >>accomplishment after winning.
>
>>Right up until the point it doesn't work out. Nor
>> is it always that tidy; there's no promise that
>> such a way exists.
>
>Yes, there is--it's called 'giving players opportunities to work their
>way out,' which is a minor form of GM fiat that, to me, is a lot more
>'palatable' than keeping brittle characters safe.
It's still beyond what some of us are willing to do if it occurs on the fly,
and nothing comes to mind that shouldn't have been obvious earlier if it was
the case.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 20:35:28 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Multipower Questions
>I rather think it is in the description of the MP - the Limitation only
>applies to the MP if it is *identical*, not merely alike. So with a
>Focus, it must be the exact same focus; with Charges, it must be the
>exact same Charges, not the same no of Charges, but the *same*; with
>Burnout, it must be the same Burnout, not one for each. Et cetera
Even this doesn't help in one case; what happens once you hit the break even
or Advantage level?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 20:38:11 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Help!!!!
>Hello all.
>
>I have had CW for awhile now, and it works great for all my Champ's stuff.
But now I would like to use it for another game system mainly Earthdawn. Has
anyone added a new game system to CW, and hint's suggestions or even a FAQ,
would be great.
I started to do it for our home version of DC Heroes at one point, but never
finished. It certainly can be done if you understand some programming and
can figure out how they do what they're doing, but I have to say it's a hell
of a lot of work.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 20:25:39 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: RE: Multipower Questions
>>Same thing with 4 charges. If one of the slots in an EB and another,
>an RKA, the 4 charges on the EB really mean 'cannot be used after the EB
>has been used 4 times without recovering it's charges.' And the 4 charges
>of RKA are really 'cannot be used after the RKA has been used 4 times
>without recovering it's charges.' When the limitation of on one slot
>comes up, it doesn't come up for any of the others. They're not the
>same limitation.
>
>I could see putting a limitation on the Reserve in such a case of "x clips
>of y charges" where x is the number of slots in the Multipower and y is the
>number of charges each slot has. Of course, the SFX of the multipower would
>have to support it as well.
That's more or less what I did in my house rules; if you buy charges on
slots rather than the multipower as a whole, you lose one level of
limitation per each doubling of slots, i.e. a two slot multipower breaks
even at 12 charges, a 4 slot at 8, and so on.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 21:03:52 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: RE: blocking the heavy hits
>I understand that there's nothing in the rules that says you may have a
>problem blocking super heavy attacks. I'm bringing this up in the interest
>of realism. I know that realism is something of a dirty word with some
>members of the list here but it's important to my game.
On that criteria, I'd suggest you allow any damage classes past those of the
user to leak through. So a martial artist with a 15 STR blocking a fellow
using a 6D6 club on blocking would take 3D6. If the attacker has as much
casual Strength as the blocker has damage classes, let him ignore the block
completely.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 23:21:47 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
At 07:54 PM 2/5/1999 -0800, Wayne Shaw wrote:
>>question???
>>
>>When in desol, could a mentalist use his powers to effect people
>> or would he have to by the +2 advantage, affects real world to do so?
>
>The latter. It's still too good a trick, otherwise.
This almost seems unfair, though, unless the character has spent the extra
20 points to be unaffected by mental powers.
The point of the +2 Advantage for attacks is "Ha! I can touch you, but you
can't touch me!" That's not the case for mental powers, at least not where
the base level of Desolid is being used.
Desolid characters, by default, are themselves affected by mental powers.
In effect, they aren't Desolid with regard to that class of power. Why
should he have to pay triple the cost to target someone in the material
world -- with a power that *anyone* in the material world can use on him?
Damon
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 00:33:24 -0500
From: "Warren E. Taylor" <wtaylor@mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: The 3d6- system sucks!
World-class weightlifter walks up to a door. It is heavy, and requires a
STR-roll to open. He uses his full STR, and he has a 14- to open it (91%),
if you have loose NCM.
My 8-year-old son (a rather large boy) walks up to the same door, and gets a
10-. 50% of the time, he opens the door.
A 4-year-old, with a -5 STR, walks up to the door, tugs hard, and opens it
on a 25% chance.
If a 4-year-old gets a 25% chance, a prepared grown man should _never_ fail,
much less a world-class weightlifter. The bell curve is nice, but it just
doesn't do the job.
In almost any field, you will find people who are skilled at the job, and
others who can consistently do things that the merely skilled find utterly
impossible. The bell curve is not enough to simulate that, in its present
form; it doesn't come close.
Several points. First, I think every system out there has situations wherein
something very stupid happens because of the mechanics of the game, so you
should not care too much about isolated cases. The GM must exercise judgment
to keep that sort of thing from happening.
In this particular case, I don't think there is anything requiring you to
use a STR roll to resolve the situation. Strength rolls should always be
qualified by the situaation. Someone with STR 20, lifting 400 kg on the
chart probably does not need a roll to shove open a huge door providing 100
kg of resistance. Certainly, a child with a STR of -5 and a lift of 12.5 kg
should not be permitted a roll. The Gm simply says the weight is far too
great. If the child successfully "puhes" he will still be way out of his
league.
Your example is caused only by a mis-application of the 3d6 roll where it
does not belong. I'm not saying that you can't find another, more valid
example, but this one is not it.
Likewise, skill is not so simple. You might give someone -3 for not knowing
a skill. Why? Because they lack knowledge. It is perfectly appropriate, for
example, for a programmer with Computer Programming skill to get his skill
roll with no penalty for writing a parser if he has studied them before.
Another programmer with the same level of skill might get a substantial
penalty if he tries to do the same, having never studied parser theory. This
is a real-life example of how the skill system (irregardless of the 3d6
roll; it would work in a 1d20 system too) needs common sense modifiers to
function. This not a shortfall of the Hero system, but of all applications
of game mechanics that adhere too strictly to the letter and none to common
sense.
Warren
Filksinger
------------------------------
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