Digest Archives Vol 1 Issue 191
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 1999 9:58 AM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #191
champ-l-digest Saturday, February 6 1999 Volume 01 : Number 191
In this issue:
Re: Enemies of San Angelo cover
Re: Strengh Table ?!?! and falling system!!!
Re: blocking the heavy hits
Re: Desolidification
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes & Genre conventions
RE: blocking the heavy hits
RE: The 3d6- system sucks!
RE: blocking the heavy hits
RE: blocking the heavy hits
Re: Desolidification
RE: Normal Men as Superheroes
RE: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: blocking the heavy hits
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
RE: The 3d6- system sucks!
Character: Gimli
Re: Desolidification
Re: Multipower Questions
Re: Multipower Questions
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: Multipower Questions
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
Re: How much damage should guns do.
Re: GenCon 99
Re: How much damage should guns do.
Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
RE: blocking the heavy hits
Re: Genre vs. Medium (Was Re: Normal Men as Superheroes)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 21:29:28 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Enemies of San Angelo cover
> The final cover for Enemies of San Angelo (Stock # H301, ISBN 1-890305-13-8)
A wierd question came to mind, Mark.
Since, as I understand it, the philopsophy of the San Angelo products is
that the PCs are the most important heroes in their setting, is you
assumption that there is an odd disproprtion between the power levels of the
NPC villains and heroes? Or do you just not have any really powerful villains?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 21:49:52 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Strengh Table ?!?! and falling system!!!
>From: Black Bishop <BISHOP@bdc2.sirnet.it>
>
>
><snip>
>>Ok now another one : Falling system allows an average superhuman to fall
>>for hundreds of meters and stay alive !!
>>It is wrong in my opinion so falling should be more lethal...
>>Any advice ???
>>Thank ya all!!
>
>
>First, the HERO System assumes that you accelerate to a speed, then fall.
>This causes you to travel farther in the same time than you would in real
>life, so you hit the ground before accelerating to an appropriate speed
>(and, incidentally, heroes have _less_ opportunity to catch you as you
>fall). For correct speeds and distances, use the below:
>
>Time in sec Velocity Distance fallen
> 1 5" 5 meters
> 2 10" 20 meters
> 3 15" 45 meters
> 4 20" 80 meters
> 5 25" 125 meters
> 6 30" 155 meters
> 7 30" 185 meters
> 8+ 30" 215 meters+30 meters per additional second
Uhm, I'll admit to not being a physics maven, but they always told me it was
32 feet per second per second; 10 meters is a hell of a lot closer to 32
feet than five meters is.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 21:59:47 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: blocking the heavy hits
>
>I don't think so. I mean, between dodge and block right now is better
>block, than allow you to begin first next phase too.
>I think also now Dodge and Block are fairl even
>And with Roll with a Punch isn't so good, and I think it is more realistic
>By the way thank you for the critics =))) I love good critics =))))
Block rather depends on it's situation for viability; if your DCV sucks at
the moment, a Block may be better because many situations which degrade DCV
don't effect OCV. On the other hand, given the 3D6 system, if you already
have a slight DCV edge, even a regular Dodge can make it quite unlikely you
get hit, while a block may only effect it minimally. Additionally, Dodge
continues to work at full power until your next phase, and effects missile
attacks, neither of which is true about Block.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 22:07:53 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Desolidification
>At 07:54 PM 2/5/1999 -0800, Wayne Shaw wrote:
>>>question???
>>>
>>>When in desol, could a mentalist use his powers to effect people
>>> or would he have to by the +2 advantage, affects real world to do so?
>>
>>The latter. It's still too good a trick, otherwise.
>
>This almost seems unfair, though, unless the character has spent the extra
>20 points to be unaffected by mental powers.
>
>The point of the +2 Advantage for attacks is "Ha! I can touch you, but you
>can't touch me!" That's not the case for mental powers, at least not where
>the base level of Desolid is being used.
The difference is, a rather large number of people have other attacks; only
a small number have mental powers. Incoming the type of attack matters, as
how often you'll run into it; outgoing, the attack you have is the attack
you ahve.
>
>Desolid characters, by default, are themselves affected by mental powers.
>In effect, they aren't Desolid with regard to that class of power. Why
>should he have to pay triple the cost to target someone in the material
>world -- with a power that *anyone* in the material world can use on him?
Because few enough people will have it that it's _still_ too good a deal.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 00:54:44 -0600
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@binary.net>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes & Genre conventions
Phil Dack wrote:
> I'm amazed that everyone so far has come up with suggestions which lie WITHIN
> the hero system!
>
The system can with great effort be interpretted very broadly
>
> I don't believe that it is possible without a lot of fudging (ie, this luck
> sfx) to make the HS fit in with genre conventions for one reason. The HS is
> an inherently mathematical roleplaying system. That's part of its
> wonderfully consistent beauty. But this inherent reliance on mathematical
> balance will not allow convention to upset it, unless you go out and
> a. enforce the convention as GM, or
> b. change the rules.
>
The rules is made for changes... thats the other part of its beauty
>
> Something I have wanted to work into HS for ages is the concept of luck
> points/hero points / karma points etc., which feature in a lot of other
> "heroic genre" games; Star Wars, Torg, DC Heroes, MSH and others.
>
Yeap its something I've wanted and not seen adequately done in HERO
>
> e.g. *wham* Juggernaut hits Cyclops. 14d6...hmm, that's Cyc down and out.
> OK, spend one hero point (or whatever) and each die is reduced by one / min.
> damage results / whatever special effect you decide suits such a system.
> Cyclops lives to fight another day.
>
> Preventing abuse? One option: If a hero point isn't used HEROICALLY then it
> never comes back. If you use it heroically, in story context, etc., it
> returns. If you use it in a situation where you are putting yourself in
> great danger for the sake of someone else, saving the world etc., you get an
> extra one. Lucky thing.
>
> I think the best example of this kind of system is Torg, where points can be
> used to buy off 'levels' of damage, either stun, knock-out effects or killing
> damage. Similarly in Champions, you could buy off stun, Body or knock back
> (hmm, I'm prepared to take the damage but I'll buy off the knock back so that
> I won't hurt that crowd of press photographers who are ALWAYS so close to the
> action - heroic use).
>
> Mechanics? Hey, don't ask me, I'm a philosopher.
>
Hand waving mechanics, buying a sort of temporary defence pool (with variable
specifics) with charges... and recovery being dependent on the situation of their
use
>
> Phil Dack (the very long-winded)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 23:33:58 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: RE: blocking the heavy hits
From: thomas deja
<snip>
> Of course, being one of the five strongest beings on Marvel
> Earth, Thor
> using Mjolinor to hit you will probably level a building or
> two.....
I'm curious. Who are the other four?
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 23:33:54 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: RE: The 3d6- system sucks!
From: ANTHONY VARGAS
>
> So, we want a system in which a character who's overmatched
> to a specific
> degree simply has no chance of success? Not very dramatic, IMHO.
Not at all. The present OCV/DCV system uses CHA/3, and allows for
dramatic conflict. I simply suggested that the same scale be applied
to skill rolls, to allow more readily for certain character types.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 23:33:49 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: RE: blocking the heavy hits
From: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
<snip>
>
> MS> That I don't buy. You can't just keep saying that for
> *every* example.
>
> Why not? When it is a consistent answer that works for
> every example,
> there has to be some merit in it.
Really? So, if someone claims (which I do not) that every time you
repeat yourself, that you are being dogmatic and refuse to consider
other views, their answer has merit?<G>
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 23:33:55 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: RE: blocking the heavy hits
From: Stainless Steel Rat
>
> Batman is a highly skilled but pysically normal person.
> That means he
> cannot buy powers. Please justify the discrepancy between character
> concept and violation of character concept.
Why bother? We've gone over this before. You insisted that normals can
never buy Powers. We quite as firmly disagreed. Will repeating the
same argument over again make you change your mind, or cause us to
say, "Wow, now that Rat has repeated himself the magical number of
times, I think I'll change my mind"? I doubt it.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 03:04:27 -0500 (EST)
From: arcus@webtv.net (chrisopher spoor)
Subject: Re: Desolidification
could we make the assumption that a mentalist with desolid is dealing
with the astral plane? From this angle we could reguire the mental
powers be bought with the extra-dimensional advantage, can't remember
the cost. I would still reguire telekinetic powers bought with the +2
unless the player has a real good explaination
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 23:33:57 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: RE: Normal Men as Superheroes
From: Stainless Steel Rat
<snip>
>
> Go read the frequently mentioned X-Men, or any other team
> title. "Brittle"
> characters stay back and blast away at range, tough bricks
> move up close to
> keep the other tough bricks occupied. Speed-demons and
> martial artists
> move in and out of range quickly before slower bricks can connect.
Absolutely correct. This is intelligence and teamwork at work.
And every so once in a while, those brittle characters, speed demons,
and martial artists get hit with something really big. And they almost
always live. This is genre.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 23:33:52 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: RE: Normal Men as Superheroes
From: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
>
> F> That's a decent one. I'd prefer Damage Reduction. My
> original suggestion
> F> wasn't intended to reduce all damage, however, only to
> avoid death
> F> without appearing superhuman.
>
> I suggest being a good GM and not putting PCs into
> situations where such
> hacks are required to keep them alive.
If controlling the game and players so much that, over years of play,
a character with a 4PD/ED and no Resistant Defense _never_ behaves in
such a way that he is in danger of getting killed by a die roll, while
simultaneously so contriving the situations that, even without any
real risk of death, he is still shown as being consistently heroic, is
"being a good GM", then I am a bad GM and proud of it. Nor would I
ever want to play in a game being run by a "good GM".
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 02:18:58 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@otd.com>
Subject: Re: blocking the heavy hits
On 5 Feb 1999, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
>
> F> Maybe Batman bought the power, "50% Damage Reduction, BODY only, only vs
> F> attacks that do 1x BODY or greater", for just such emergencies?
>
> Batman is a highly skilled but pysically normal person. That means he
> cannot buy powers. Please justify the discrepancy between character
> concept and violation of character concept.
Wrong. Batman is a superheroic character being run in a superheroic
universe and on a superheroic point scale. He is a base 100 points are
better and can buy any powers he wants, even if he is a physcially
'normal' well-trained human. Saying otherwise violates the idea of the
Hero System where powers are simply mechanics used to define SFX. And
Batman has plenty of powers - most of which are foci. But, he could buy
such things as Invisibility to Sound (super-stealth) or Clinging (superior
climbing skill) and *not* violate his concept.
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"I would place a tax on all foreigners living abroad."
from "Monty Python's Flying Circus"
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 02:22:27 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@otd.com>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
> "MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@otd.com> writes:
>
> MS> Whoa... what about "Total" psych lims? What about the fact that the
> MS> reason they are psych lims is becuase they are "Limitations" which may
> MS> 'force' the character to do things the PC wouldn't do. This includes
> MS> 'stupid' things (which some people might call 'heroic' things).
>
> Take someone like the Batman and give him a really powerful 'protect
> innocents' psych lim. Set a 70-strength brick about to pulverize a
> construction worker. Is he going to walk up and tap the brick on the
> kneecap, or is he going to do something clever like throwing a spiffy
> gadget which will cause something large and heavy to fall onto the head of
> said brick? My money is on the 'doing something clever', which is both
> intelligent and in keeping with his disadvantages.
Not all characters are Batman and not all characters have spiffy gadgets.
> There is nothing in the description of Psychological Limitation that
> requires a character act stupidly. There is nothing that prevents a
> character from acting intelligently when under the duress of a
> Psychological Limitation.
Psych lims can make somone act irrationally. See page 123 of teh HSR.
And 'irrational' actions could be considered 'stupid' by some. You can't
expect everyone to live up to your idea of what is the correct corse of
action. And to say that anyone who doesn't is 'stupid' and 'deserves what
they get' is a slap in the face to those who try to roleplay and think for
themselves as opposed to slavishly following your idea of genre
conventions.
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"I would place a tax on all foreigners living abroad."
from "Monty Python's Flying Circus"
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 23:34:00 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: RE: The 3d6- system sucks!
From: Warren E. Taylor
<snip>
>
> Several points. First, I think every system out there has
> situations wherein
> something very stupid happens because of the mechanics of
> the game, so you
> should not care too much about isolated cases. The GM must
> exercise judgment
> to keep that sort of thing from happening.
Granted. However, when it is something as basic as Skill and CHA
rolls, maybe the system needs tweaking.
> In this particular case, I don't think there is anything
> requiring you to
> use a STR roll to resolve the situation. Strength rolls
> should always be
> qualified by the situaation. Someone with STR 20, lifting
> 400 kg on the
> chart probably does not need a roll to shove open a huge
> door providing 100
> kg of resistance. Certainly, a child with a STR of -5 and a
> lift of 12.5 kg
> should not be permitted a roll. The Gm simply says the
> weight is far too
> great. If the child successfully "puhes" he will still be
> way out of his
> league.
If he is "way out of his league", then why is his STR roll "in the
league" in the first place? If I say, "X requires a STR roll to do",
there is no mechanism for declaring a character "outclassed" or "to
strong to need a roll". If you create a mechanism, what decides when
it is used? I'll bet that virtually every example could be corrected
simply by changing how the rolls are made to begin with.
> Your example is caused only by a mis-application of the 3d6
> roll where it
> does not belong. I'm not saying that you can't find
> another, more valid
> example, but this one is not it.
Why not? If X requires a STR roll (or other CHA roll), then it should
require a roll, period. Saying, "It requires a roll, except you are
too wimpy, you can't do it", or "It requires a roll, but you are too
macho" is kludgey. It also leaves a too narrow difference between
people "just X enough to have a chance" and "just not-X enough to
fail".
> Likewise, skill is not so simple. You might give someone -3
> for not knowing
> a skill. Why? Because they lack knowledge. It is perfectly
> appropriate, for
> example, for a programmer with Computer Programming skill
> to get his skill
> roll with no penalty for writing a parser if he has studied
> them before.
> Another programmer with the same level of skill might get a
> substantial
> penalty if he tries to do the same, having never studied
> parser theory.
This still doesn't cover it. If I am a professional juggler, but not
world class, I may have a barely achievable upper limit of 5 balls in
the air at one time. Another might have a limit of 9. However, the one
with the limit of 9 will probably juggle 5 and never fail, while I
wouldn't stand a chance in Hell of juggling 9.
Same thing happens when a man who barely knows how to pick a wimpy
hotel room lock (8-) is compared to a truly skilled professional
locksmith. In the game, the locksmith has a distinct chance of failing
to pick the hotel room lock, while the amateur has a distinct chance
of picking a lock that truly challenges the professional. In real
life, it doesn't work like that.
All I want is a bit more spread to the rolls, with _maybe_ the
possibility of "sorry, that's just not possible for someone of your
skill" and "you are so incredibly good, you don't even need to roll".
Changing skill and CHA rolls a little to effect this doesn't seem
unreasonable.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 03:20:07 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: Character: Gimli
GIMLI, SON OF GLOIN
18 STR 8
12 DEX 6
18 CON 16
18 BODY 16
13 INT 3
13 EGO 6
16 PRE 6
12 COM 1
8 PD 4
6 ED 2
4 SPD 18
10 REC 4
60 END 17
50 STUN 14
Characteristics Cost: 121
15 25% Damage Reduction (PD), resistant
15 25% Damage Reduction (ED), resistant
2 WF,Common Melee
15 5 Levels: Axes
5 Mechanics 12-
5 Security Systems 13-
3 Tactics 12-
7 Trading 14-
11 Weaponsmith 15-
9 KS: Masonry and Stonecarving 18-
6 KS: Dwarven History 15-
9 KS: Mining 18-
5 KS: Secrets of the Earth 14-
1 Lang: Khuzdul,-native,-literacy
4 Lang: Westron,fluent w/accent,-literacy
1 Lang: Sindarin
6 15- Contact: Dain II Ironfoot
5 Member of Aristocracy
10 Money, wealthy
3 Bump Of Direction
7 14- Combat Sense
5 Defense Maneuver
19 Package,"Dwarven Axe",OAF-
(5) 2 Levels,-related group
(14) 2D6+1 Killing Attack ,13 STR Min
16 Package,"Dwarven Chain", OIF
(16) 8/8 Armor
Powers Cost: 184
Total Cost: 305
Base Points: 75
10 Distinctive Features,"Dwarf", concealable, minor
5 Watched, "Dwarves of Erebor", as powerful, noncombat
influence, limited area, mild, appear 11-
15 Psychological Limitation, "Hatred of Orcs", common, strong
10 Psychological Limitation, "Protective of Dwarven Secrets",
uncommon,strong
10 Psychological Limitation, "Heroically Brave", uncommon, strong
180 Taller than a Hobbit Bonus
Disadvantages Total: 230
Experience Spent: 0
Total Points: 305
Gimli is a dwarf of Durin's line, son of the same Gloin who was part
of Thorin Oakenshield's company on the expedition to Erebor. Born
in Third Age 2879 in the dwarf-mansions of the Ered Luin, he was
sixty-two when he moved to Erebor in 2941. In 3018, at the age of
one hundred thirty-nine, he travelled to Imladris (Rivendell) with
his father and was chosen to represent the Dwarves in the Fellowship
of the Ring.
After escaping from the ruins of Khazad-Dum (Moria), Gimli was the
first dwarf to enter Lorien since the fall of Khazad-Dum more than a
thousand years before. There he fell in love with the beauty of
Galadriel, and when offered any gift he could name, he asked only
for a strand of her golden hair, which he intended to lock into a
jewel.
During the Fellowship, he became a close friend of the elf Legolas.
He travelled to Rohan with Aragorn and Legolas, and fought beside
them at the battle of the Hornburg, where he first saw the Glittering
Caves of Aglarond. He then followed Aragorn through the Paths
of the Dead into Gondor, where he fought beside Legolas at the
Battle of the Pelennor Fields and before the Gates of the Morannon.
After the War of the Ring, Gimli brought a group of his kin to the
Aglarond, which Eomer had given to him, and became the Lord
of the Glittering Caves. Among the many wondrous things forged
there were the jewel containing the strand of Galadriel's hair, and
the new gates of Minas Tirith, forged from mithril and steel.
After the death of King Elessar (Aragorn) in Fourth Age 120, Gimli
left Middle-Earth behind and with his friend Legolas beside him,
became the first dwarf to sail over the sea to Aman. He was two
hundred sixty-one years old at the time.
At the time of the War of the Ring, Gimli is a mature dwarf, short in
stature, but broad and powerful. His long red beard fell to his waist
and he habitually wore a shirt of dwarven chainmail under his cloak.
NOTES:
1) I have not given Gimli Life Support against aging. I dont think it is
merited for any mortal creature, even if his life span was centuries
long.
2) This is an attempt to capture Gimli as he was during the Fellowship.
Later, of course, he has more knowledge of the wide world and more
contacts. Plus, he's filthy rich!
3) The Damage Reduction is meant to model the generally tough
nature of dwarves. They take a lot of pounding.
4) A note on the jewel created with Galadriel's hair. Tolkien is at
great pains to tell us that the Phial of Galadriel radiated, in a
roundabout way, the light of the Two Trees of Valinor. The light of the
trees had been caught in the Silmarils; one of the Silmarils was
set on the prow of Earendil's ship and that put into the sky as a star;
the Well of Galadriel reflected that light, and that was the water
used to fill the phial, and that is why it was so effective against
Shelob the spider.
Well, we are also told that Galadriel's hair "reflected and caught"
the light of the Two Trees. In this case, Gimli's gem could well
be a great prize. In time of need, the holy light of the Two Trees
could well appear from it, as well.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(What like a bullet can undeceive!)
But now they lie low,
While over them the swallows skim,
And all is hushed at Shiloh.
Herman Melville, Shiloh, A Requiem (April 1862)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scott C. Nolan
nolan@erols.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 00:24:22 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Desolidification
>could we make the assumption that a mentalist with desolid is dealing
>with the astral plane? From this angle we could reguire the mental
>powers be bought with the extra-dimensional advantage, can't remember
>the cost. I would still reguire telekinetic powers bought with the +2
>unless the player has a real good explaination
Since hopping into another convenient dimension and then sniping through
with Transdimensional is also abusive in my opinion, I'd say the answer is
no. I might permit it if I designed the Astral Plane, but then if I did,
the problems from the mundane plane would be the least of your worries...
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 99 11:11:19
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Multipower Questions
On Fri, 5 Feb 1999 20:35:28 -0800 (PST), Wayne Shaw wrote:
>
>>I rather think it is in the description of the MP - the Limitation only
>>applies to the MP if it is *identical*, not merely alike. So with a
>>Focus, it must be the exact same focus; with Charges, it must be the
>>exact same Charges, not the same no of Charges, but the *same*; with
>>Burnout, it must be the same Burnout, not one for each. Et cetera
>
>
>Even this doesn't help in one case; what happens once you hit the break even
>or Advantage level?
Then it doesn't Limit any more and you adjust the AP of the MP upwards.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 02:59:07 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Multipower Questions
>On Fri, 5 Feb 1999 20:35:28 -0800 (PST), Wayne Shaw wrote:
>
>>
>>>I rather think it is in the description of the MP - the Limitation only
>>>applies to the MP if it is *identical*, not merely alike. So with a
>>>Focus, it must be the exact same focus; with Charges, it must be the
>>>exact same Charges, not the same no of Charges, but the *same*; with
>>>Burnout, it must be the same Burnout, not one for each. Et cetera
>>
>>
>>Even this doesn't help in one case; what happens once you hit the break even
>>or Advantage level?
>
>Then it doesn't Limit any more and you adjust the AP of the MP upwards.
I'd rather have something more systematic that dealt with the issue all up
and down the line, personally. Discontinuities are not a good thing from
where I sit.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 00:03:52 +1000
From: "happyelf" <jonesl@hotkey.net.au>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
- -----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
>Comics do that a lot, Spiderman is strong enough to lift ten TONS, thats
>with a T, as in 20,000 pounds, as in 5 cars stacked on top of each other.
>Yet he punches Doc Octopus in a massive haymaker, which makes doc fly
>back... and reconsider his strategy.
doc ock is a bad example. he's a freak really, and i'd say he's a perfect
candidate for extra armor, ect.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 23:13:58 +1000
From: "happyelf" <jonesl@hotkey.net.au>
Subject: Re: Multipower Questions
Feel free to tell someone who cares.
'tis no greater coward than a man who has the last
word, then turns off his ears.'
- -----Original Message-----
From: chris@ergmusic.com <chris@ergmusic.com>
To: jonesl@hotkey.net.au <jonesl@hotkey.net.au>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Thursday, February 04, 1999 7:42 AM
Subject: Re: Multipower Questions
>Normally I don't add people to the kill-filter for my mail, but I think
>I have found someone else to add.
>
>And it ain't Rat...
>
>Chris Hartjes
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 00:09:18 +1000
From: "happyelf" <jonesl@hotkey.net.au>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
- -----Original Message-----
From: Dr. Nuncheon <jeffj@io.com>
>Heh. Unless, of course, the target can take the hit (that mega-blast vs.
>Superman). Hmmm...mandatory OCV adjustment based on the power of the
>attack vs. the defense level...interesting...probably too slow to run
>with, unfortunately. Champs combat doesn't need anything /else/ to slow
>it down.
>
>J
>
all it requires is a limtation that reduces the to-hit roll.
>Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
>Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj
>
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 00:11:50 +1000
From: "happyelf" <jonesl@hotkey.net.au>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
it did- hulk recently put rick jones in a wheelchair. I'm sure juggy's
splattered somebody. J2's likely to if they go that way with the new
comics.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Friday, February 05, 1999 1:09 AM
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
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>"N" == Nuncheon <jeffj@io.com> writes:
>
>>> Juggy wouldn't pull his punches; he would use significantly less than
his
>>> full strength.
>
>N> Replace Juggernaut with an enraged Hulk, then.
>
>It does not matter who the brick is, it is a convention of genre. The
>situation you describe simply will not happen, ever.
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>--
>Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain
types
>Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ of skin.
>PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 23:30:47 +1000
From: "happyelf" <jonesl@hotkey.net.au>
Subject: Re: How much damage should guns do.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Thursday, February 04, 1999 8:11 AM
Subject: Re: How much damage should guns do.
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>"h" == happyelf <jonesl@hotkey.net.au> writes:
>
>h> yeah right
>h> 'ohh, look at me! i have a kevlar blankie and nobody can hurt me!
>
>Tell that to a FA-MAS in either system. It might even help (but I doubt
>it). That was a nice thing about the original FNFF: characters hit by
>combat weapons go down and stay down.
>
Okies, i assume you're citing field ordinance in the first bit? As
for the second, is it accurate? what about those lads that get
shots six times and keep fighting? huh? huh? though so.
>h> oh, and animal kung fu can actually kill people!'
>
>Ever hear the phrase, 'bludgeoned to death'?
ever heard of the phrase
'killed by a single crane kick to the head'?
i don't think so!
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>--
>Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include
an
>Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ unknown glowing substance which fell
to
>PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ Earth, presumably from outer space.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 23:37:34 +1000
From: "happyelf" <jonesl@hotkey.net.au>
Subject: Re: GenCon 99
- -----Original Message-----
From: gilberg@ou.edu <gilberg@ou.edu>
To: champs-l@sysabend.org <champs-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Thursday, February 04, 1999 9:38 AM
Subject: Re: GenCon 99
>
>>*cough cough* games workshop? It's not like that-
>>it's just ccg's are expensive, as is gw, and rpg's are cheap.
>
> GW? Not really wargames, in my opinion. More like
>Battletech--Miniatures Lite.
>
oh yeah. real men play panzer dragoon, or something.
> I'm talking about the downturn by most wargames, miniature or not.
>You still see them at cons, but it is a rapidly aging and slowly-shrinking
>group of people. Is this the fate that will befall RPGers?
>
>
No. completly different issue. In 50 years, people will be playing orpg's
and
even tabletops like you wouldn't believe.
>>with one rule book and a group- hell thrown in ths mail list and oyu have
>>all you'll even need.
>>What, one book a year? What other pastime is that cool, but that cheap?
>
> Sure, depending on the game. Hell, most "real" Wargamers go ahead
>and write their own version of the "perfect" rules for their era--and while
>miniatures are nice, cardboard squares do just fine.
>
> For cards? You can play with a starter deck, I guess. Slasher,
the
>one I mentioned earlier, is just that single purchase, and that's for the
>entire group playing.
>
> But for the real idea of economical gaming? Chess--nothing needed
>at all.
>
okkkkkk. . .
> I'll take white, someone follow along.
>
> 1) d2-d4
your pawns turn against you! oh wait, can't do that in chess(unless yer a
certain doctor).
Rpgs, it's quite possible. .
>
>
>
> -Tim Gilberg
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 23:34:29 +1000
From: "happyelf" <jonesl@hotkey.net.au>
Subject: Re: How much damage should guns do.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Thursday, February 04, 1999 8:55 AM
Subject: Re: How much damage should guns do.
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com>
>>To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
>>Date: Sunday, January 31, 1999 7:58 AM
>>Subject: Re: How much damage should guns do.
>>
>>
>>>>*cough cough* it's only one guy *cough cough*
>>>
>>>And one guy who really didn't mean it as harshly as he took it. I didn't
>>>think there was anything wrong with his adding rules to make Hero do what
>>he
>>>wanted. I just wanted to emphasize that the basic design _was_
cinematic.
>>:P
>>>
>>
>>yes but remember now, you're actually wrong about that.
>>'cinematic' is a catch-all term used when the equally catch-all
>>'realistic' is not being used. It's very severly redundant.
>
>Actually, I don't agree. There is a middle ground between games designed
>with a deliberately cinematic bias and those designed to be realistic. It
>is a continuum, and I think having a term for which end of the spectrum a
>game runs to is indeed useful.
>
Yes, but no game even comes close to a genuine realism level, and
jugeing where the game is often pivots on very questionable
issues, like wether you like thinkig your local style of worthless
martial art can really kick ass, or you believe everything 'guns and ammo'
tells you about pistol accuracy in combat. Same goes for cinematic. Unless
yer in the sas, i don't want ot hear you pretend you ahve a clue. I dont,
neither do you. Unless you mean the genre of gritty realism, irrespective
of actual realism? In that case, customisation is still the way.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 00:01:50 +1000
From: "happyelf" <jonesl@hotkey.net.au>
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes
- -----Original Message-----
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
>Supervillains aren't normals, and this fact usually shows rather quickly.
>That said, most heroes should treat apparant normals as normals until they
>learn otherwise. That is a genre convention that dates back at least as
>early as Superman. Those that do not are not particularly heroic, and will
>probably screw themselves over by 'accidentally' killing a villain who
>really is just a normal guy.
>
oh yeah. . what's stopping the villains, again?
>F> And why do you suppose the villain would always pull his punces.
>
>Juggy wouldn't pull his punches; he would use significantly less than his
>full strength.
>
casual strength? what, 10d6? 6d6? plus knockback off say a cliff, or into a
wall?
And add in super-brick options like groundstrike and handclaps.
>F> Suppose Juggy was trying to _kill_ Cyclops?
>
>It is a convention of genre. Cyclops will *NEVER* find himself in a boxing
>match with Juggernaut. Something will happen to prevent that from
>happening. Or something will happen to even the odds a bit.
>
And a lot of genre conventions are acually powers. A james bond writeup
might have missile deflection, fully invisible. A superman writeup might
have desolid, only
to not collide and squish a normal, whilst being knocked thorough a highrise
building.
>I played a character exactly like that, and exactly that happened. My
>character was totally out-classed. I knew this. But I was stupid, he was
>stupid, and we paid for it. The fault was mine, not the GM's and not the
>system's. If you insist on playing a character with defenses that are
>significantly below what the campaign calls for (ie, 8 DEF in a 12DC
>campaign), do not blame the system for that character's death when you or
>he does something stupid.
Instead, simulate the genre. All the gi-joes have extra body, spidey has a
missle defelction, Rambo has damage reduction.
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>--
>Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should
be
>Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ returned to its special container and
>PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ kept under refrigeration.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 09:26:07 -0500 (EST)
From: tdj723@webtv.net (thomas deja)
Subject: RE: blocking the heavy hits
>From: filkhero@usa.net (Filksinger)
>>Of course, being one of the five strongest
>> beings on Marvel Earth, Thor using Mjolinor
>> to hit you will probably level a building or
>> two.....
>I'm curious. Who are the other four?
Keeping in mind that this ranking changes on a daily basis, it usually
shakes out like so:
1) The Hulk (who gets geometrically stronger the madder he gets)
2) The Thing
3) Thor
4) Sub-Mariner
5) Strong Guy (who gets stronger the more kinetic energy he absorbs)
Rankings may change without notice
"Many bears talk"
"Somehow I wouldn't have reckoned they had a lot to say."
"Talk Goddamn head off. Always got something to say about bees."
- --Jonah Hex and Spotted Balls, JONAH HEX: SHADOWS WEST
_______________________________
An except from the new story "The Smoking Glass Grin" can now be found
at MAKE UP YOUR OWN DAMN TITLE
www.freeyellow.com/members/tdj, along with "The Net," a complete story
from the archives....you've been warned.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 09:18:31 -0500 (EST)
From: tdj723@webtv.net (thomas deja)
Subject: Re: Genre vs. Medium (Was Re: Normal Men as Superheroes)
>From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
>And still may not be possible, or acceptable at
> least. It's also not a given that you'll know
> enough about a given brick opponent to be
> able to pull that effectively. I'm very dubious
> about any suggestion that such things can be
> avoided indefinitely without GM intervetion.
> I've seen things turn around oddly too often
> during games.
Okay, but even if the brittle character hasn't gleaned enough from the
combat to spot an achilles heel (remember, brittle characters are
usually smarter than normal, more observant--they might even have a
'find weakness' level or two), there are still ways to avoid the direct
punch up. Getting to a vantge point out of the brick's reach (brittle
characters do tend to be more limber, after all), throwing something at
them not to hurt them but to delay them....there are *always* ways if
the player thinks of them, and as GM I am going to give them the
opportunity to think of them, because it's within genre.
What I'm not going to do is coddle them and force the issue--there is GM
fiat and GM fiat, and I kind of think my way is the best of both
worlds--not protecting the PC while giving them ways to work the problem
out themselves.
>It's still beyond what some of us are willing to
> do if it occurs on the fly, and nothing comes to
> mind that shouldn't have been obvious earlier
> if it was the case.
But as GM, you're GOD....you can make these opportunities even if you
haven't planned out enough and just tell your players 'it's a standard
dark alley.' The GM should be flexible enough so that, when the players
say, "Is there a garbage can lid I can grab hold of (or a garbage can,
for that matter), he can say, "Sure."
After all, one of the truths about RPGs is that they never go exactly as
the GM plans--if you can't be improvisational, it's not an RPG--it's a
script.
"Many bears talk"
"Somehow I wouldn't have reckoned they had a lot to say."
"Talk Goddamn head off. Always got something to say about bees."
- --Jonah Hex and Spotted Balls, JONAH HEX: SHADOWS WEST
_______________________________
An except from the new story "The Smoking Glass Grin" can now be found
at MAKE UP YOUR OWN DAMN TITLE
www.freeyellow.com/members/tdj, along with "The Net," a complete story
from the archives....you've been warned.
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #191
*****************************
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Date: Tuesday, May 25, 1999 10:29 AM