From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org 
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 1999 9:25 PM 
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org 
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #192 
 
 
champ-l-digest       Saturday, February 6 1999       Volume 01 : Number 192 
 
 
 
In this issue: 
 
    Re: Normal Men as Superheroes 
    RE: blocking the heavy hits 
    RE: Strengh Table ?!?! and falling system!!! 
    RE: blocking the heavy hits 
    Re: Normal Men as Superheroes 
    Re: Desolidification 
    Re: blocking the heavy hits 
    Re: Proposal for new sourcebook (TUSH) 
    Re: Proposal for new sourcebook (TUSH) 
    RE: blocking the heavy hits 
    Re: Normal Men as Superheroes 
    Re: GenCon 99 
    RE: blocking the heavy hits 
    Re: [Re: The 3d6- system sucks!] 
    RE: blocking the heavy hits 
    RE: Strengh Table ?!?! and falling system!!! 
    Re: Genre vs. Medium (Was Re: Normal Men as Superheroes) 
    Character: Gollum 
    Re: The 3d6- system sucks! 
    Re: blocking the heavy hits 
    Re: Strengh Table ?!?! and falling system!!! 
    Re: The 3d6- system sucks! 
    Animal-Men Campaigns 
    RE: blocking the heavy hits 
    Re: GenCon 99  
    Character: Grima 
    Re: Genre vs. Medium (Was Re: Normal Men as Superheroes) 
    Re: blocking the heavy hits 
    Re: Normal Men as Superheroes 
    Re: blocking the heavy hits 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 09:55:27 EST 
From: ErolB1@aol.com 
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes 
 
In a message dated 99-02-05 11:16:00 EST, ratinox@peorth.gweep.net writes: 
 
> Having a psychological limitation does not mean you have to be stupid about  
>  it. 
 
Er, yes it does. At least at the 'Strong' or 'Total' level: 
 
Strong: Character takes *irrational actions* concerning the situtation 
 
Total: Character becomes totally useless or *completely irrational* in the 
situtation 
 
(BBB p 123. Emphasis added) 
 
Seems obvious to me that "irrational" here means "having to be stupid about 
it." 
 
Erol K. Bayburt 
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 07:15:44 -0800 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: RE: blocking the heavy hits 
 
From: Michael Surbrook 
> But, 
> he could buy 
> such things as Invisibility to Sound (super-stealth) or 
> Clinging (superior 
> climbing skill) and *not* violate his concept. 
 
Rat has already stated that he believes all such constructs should be 
utterly forbidden. Is it really necessary to rehash this again? 
 
Filksinger 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 07:15:36 -0800 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: RE: Strengh Table ?!?! and falling system!!! 
 
From: Wayne Shaw 
 
> 
> Uhm, I'll admit to not being a physics maven, but they 
> always told me it was 
> 32 feet per second per second; 10 meters is a hell of a lot 
> closer to 32 
> feet than five meters is. 
 
Quite correct. Just a fraction of a meter below 10 
meters/second/second. To determine your _average_ velocity, starting 
from zero and continuing until you reach a particular speed, take the 
amount of time fallen, multiply it by 10 meters/second, divide in 
half, then take that average and multiply it by the number of seconds 
fallen. 
 
(10 meters/second) x (time falling) divided by 2 times (time falling), 
or (gx^2)/2. 
 
So, for the first second, your _average_ speed for the second is 5 
meters/second. For the second second, it is 10 meters/second times 2 
seconds times 2 seconds divided by 2, or 20 meters. And so on. 
 
Filksinger 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 08:43:47 -0800 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net> 
Subject: RE: blocking the heavy hits 
 
>Why bother? We've gone over this before. You insisted that normals can 
>never buy Powers. We quite as firmly disagreed. 
 
I'm not sure what you mean when you use the term 'normal' if you think they 
can have powers that are beyond the range of normal people then. 
 
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo    	Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 08:51:19 -0800 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net> 
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes 
 
>>Comics do that a lot, Spiderman is strong enough to lift ten TONS, thats 
>>with a T, as in 20,000 pounds, as in 5 cars stacked on top of each other. 
>>Yet he punches Doc Octopus in a massive haymaker, which makes doc fly 
>>back... and reconsider his strategy.   
> 
>doc ock is a bad example. he's a freak really, and i'd say he's a perfect  
>candidate for extra armor, ect.  
 
He's a fat scientist with extra arms, not anything extra.  The fact that 
they recently gave him combat armor does NOT mean he is anything special, 
hes still a fat schlub scientist that has arms.  Nothing in his 
description, background or writeup in the OHOTMU even vaguely suggests he 
has any other powers, rather the opposite.  
 
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo    	Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 08:49:01 -0800 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net> 
Subject: Re: Desolidification 
 
>could we make the assumption that a mentalist with desolid is dealing 
>with the astral plane? From this angle we could reguire the mental 
>powers be bought with the extra-dimensional advantage, can't remember 
>the cost. I would still reguire telekinetic powers bought with  the +2 
>unless the player has a real good explaination   
 
+1, with indirect required for the powers to have interact with rather than 
simply perceive the other dimension.  But no, this is a very bad idea. 
Consider your hapless party of normal characters with little or no mental 
defense and little or no ability to affect desolid characters.  Consider 
the desolid mentalist mocking them as he lays waste to them with total 
impugnity... any time you think an idea is keen, think of it being used 
against you. 
 
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo    	Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 09:09:23 -0800 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: blocking the heavy hits 
 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net> 
 
 
 
>>Why bother? We've gone over this before. You insisted that normals can 
>>never buy Powers. We quite as firmly disagreed. 
> 
>I'm not sure what you mean when you use the term 'normal' if you think they 
>can have powers that are beyond the range of normal people then. 
 
 
Many genres, the superhero one included, have skill that appears to be 
beyond any real-world skill. Stealth that is so good that it appears to be 
limited Invisibility. Climbing that scales walls no real man could climb, at 
speeds greater than the Climbing skill allows. Damage Reduction, defined as 
"SFX: Really good at rolling with the punch and taking the hit someplace 
where it will hurt less". Hypnosis, defined as very limited Telepathy and 
Mind Control (to allow for extracting memories outside of conscious memory 
or control of things beyond the character's normal conscious control). 
 
Additionally, real people sometimes have abilities that, in the HERO System, 
fit into the category of Powers. Active Sonar, for blind people who can 
sense walls without touching them, for example. Even superior hearing, the 
ability to hear very high-pitched sounds, or superior sense of smell is 
listed as a "Power" in the HERO System. There are even real people whose 
virtually absolute total recall of everything that happens over a particular 
period of time appears to surpass the Talent "Eidetic Memory", and which 
some people think should be defined as limited Retrocognition. 
 
Some people think these things should be allowed, some think they should be 
banned, and some seem to switch sides willy-nilly, according to a pattern I 
have yet to determine in many cases. 
 
Filksinger 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 11:53:47 -0500 
From: "Dave Mattingly" <dave@haymaker.win.net> 
Subject: Re: Proposal for new sourcebook (TUSH) 
 
I had the same idea a year or so ago. The Ultimate Hero Powers Book. I'd 
love to be able to give all the powers as much detail as I did Size and 
Density Powers, for example (http://www.haymaker.org/haym15.html). But then, 
as I was getting my proposal together, I realized that besides just the 
powers themselves, I could include some of the advice I've put together over 
the years about playing the superhero genre. So I included those two 
thoughts into my proposal, The Ultimate Super Hero (or TUSH, as I abbreviate 
it in my notes). I couldn't imagine a more bold proposal! 
 
I sent it in to Bruce, who accepted it, and told me not to think of it as an 
Ultimate book, but as the new Champions genre book. I was stunned! I 
couldn't believe that Hero wanted me to write the new Champions book! 
 
But the ultimate powers list is still there. And it will be pretty 
extensive, and even organized well. So wish me the best and send me your 
ideas. Now that my job situation seems to be stabilizing, I plan to put more 
time into it. I've done just about all the research I need, and I've been 
writing bits and pieces of it for Haymaker and other Hero APAs, so it is 
steadily growing, but not as fast as I'd like. 
 
Here's a partial preview of the ultimate powers index: 
 
    Physical Powers - Body of X 
        Hard Stuff 
        Soft Stuff 
        Liquid 
        Gas 
        Magnet 
        Energy 
        Plasticine 
        Plant 
 
        Body of X - Non-Human 
            Alien 
            Mythical creature 
            Robot 
 
            Body of Non-Human - Bestial 
                Spidery 
                Wolfen 
                Beastmaster 
 
            Body of Non-Human - Supernatural 
                Godling 
                Ghost 
                Vampire 
                Demons 
 
    Physical Powers - Biochemical 
        Poison 
        Sleep 
        Stun 
        Pheromones 
        Hallucinogens 
        Adrenaline 
        Chemical Reaction 
        Machines 
        Kinetic Control 
        Neural Manipulation 
        Eater 
        Disease 
 
 
Dave Mattingly 
http://haymaker.org 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 09:52:21 -0800 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: Proposal for new sourcebook (TUSH) 
 
Body of Vermin -- a hive body, composed of insects or scorpions or the 
like. I wrote this up for GURPS Supers, actually, but it's easier to do in 
Hero. (Duh!) 
 
Powers tend to include desolidification, with the limit that normal attacks 
still affect, and that the size of any opening you can pass through is 
equal to the size of your component parts), high Physical DR (the vermin 
just scuttle around blades), often 2*damage from energy and low ED, and 
very ofen Power Defense and Mental Defense (it's hard to drain or transform 
someone whose body is actually thousands of bodies, and it's likewise hard 
to focus on a mind which is distributed among a collective intelligence) 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 13:02:33 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@otd.com> 
Subject: RE: blocking the heavy hits 
 
On Sat, 6 Feb 1999, Filksinger wrote: 
 
> From: Michael Surbrook 
> > But, 
> > he could buy 
> > such things as Invisibility to Sound (super-stealth) or 
> > Clinging (superior 
> > climbing skill) and *not* violate his concept. 
>  
> Rat has already stated that he believes all such constructs should be 
> utterly forbidden. Is it really necessary to rehash this again? 
 
You are correct Filksinger.  I'll stop now. 
  
 
- -- 
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html 
 
  "...If said motherboard is equipped with an Intel central processing unit, 
    an appropriate warning label bearing the words 'Intel Inside' shall be 
          permanently affixed to the case in a prominent location." 
     Bruce Murphy, excerpting a new OSHA regulation for computer systems 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 13:01:57 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@otd.com> 
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes 
 
On Sat, 6 Feb 1999 ErolB1@aol.com wrote: 
 
> In a message dated 99-02-05 11:16:00 EST, ratinox@peorth.gweep.net writes: 
>  
> > Having a psychological limitation does not mean you have to be stupid about  
> >  it. 
>  
> Er, yes it does. At least at the 'Strong' or 'Total' level: 
>  
> Strong: Character takes *irrational actions* concerning the situtation 
>  
> Total: Character becomes totally useless or *completely irrational* in the 
> situtation 
>  
> (BBB p 123. Emphasis added) 
>  
> Seems obvious to me that "irrational" here means "having to be stupid about 
> it." 
 
And there you have it. 
 
- -- 
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html 
 
  "...If said motherboard is equipped with an Intel central processing unit, 
    an appropriate warning label bearing the words 'Intel Inside' shall be 
          permanently affixed to the case in a prominent location." 
     Bruce Murphy, excerpting a new OSHA regulation for computer systems 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 12:44:58 -0600 (Central Standard Time) 
From: Tim Gilberg <gilberg@ou.edu> 
Subject: Re: GenCon 99 
 
> >         I'll take white, someone follow along. 
> >  
> >         1) d2-d4 
>  
> Okay. 	     b8-c6 
 
	Interesting. 
 
	2) d4-d5 
 
 
					-Tim Gilberg 
			-"English Majors of the World!  Untie!" 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 13:04:13 -0600 (Central Standard Time) 
From: Tim Gilberg <gilberg@ou.edu> 
Subject: RE: blocking the heavy hits 
 
> > Of course, being one of the five strongest beings on Marvel  
> > Earth, Thor 
> > using Mjolinor to hit you will probably level a building or  
 
> I'm curious. Who are the other four? 
 
	Hmmmm.  Interesting question.  I have a reprint of an early 
Spiderman that has Spidey 4th behind Thor, Hulk and Thing--That has 
certainly changed by now. 
 
 
					-Tim Gilberg 
			-"English Majors of the World!  Untie!" 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 12:49:00 -0600 (Central Standard Time) 
From: Tim Gilberg <gilberg@ou.edu> 
Subject: Re: [Re: The 3d6- system sucks!] 
 
> The real-world IQ scale is based on a set of standardized tests that test 
> not knowledge or intelligence but ability to think along the same lines as 
> the test.  Problem is, there are many different ways of thinking, ways 
> which are either not represented or impossible to represent on standardized  
> tests. 
 
	And actually, it's not just thinking in line with the test, but in 
line with a test that matches up in practice with the entire line of IQ 
tests, going back to a test created by a French Education theorist back in 
the 19th century that was designed to test whether students should go to 
the university.  (Er, not just students, but wealthy male students.) 
 
	But of course, standardized tests are not biased, everybody knows 
that.  Sheesh. 
 
					-Tim Gilberg 
			-"English Majors of the World!  Untie!" 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 11:10:15 -0800 (PST) 
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw) 
Subject: RE: blocking the heavy hits 
 
>>Why bother? We've gone over this before. You insisted that normals can 
>>never buy Powers. We quite as firmly disagreed. 
> 
>I'm not sure what you mean when you use the term 'normal' if you think they 
>can have powers that are beyond the range of normal people then. 
 
I suspect he's refering to the powers-as-talents constructs...things that 
represent supernormal learned abilities or other theoretical non-powers that 
are still most easily simulated by modified powers, but that still leave the 
person an otherwise avowed normal human. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 11:06:56 -0800 (PST) 
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw) 
Subject: RE: Strengh Table ?!?! and falling system!!! 
 
>From: Wayne Shaw 
> 
>> 
>> Uhm, I'll admit to not being a physics maven, but they 
>> always told me it was 
>> 32 feet per second per second; 10 meters is a hell of a lot 
>> closer to 32 
>> feet than five meters is. 
> 
>Quite correct. Just a fraction of a meter below 10 
>meters/second/second. To determine your _average_ velocity, starting 
>from zero and continuing until you reach a particular speed, take the 
>amount of time fallen, multiply it by 10 meters/second, divide in 
>half, then take that average and multiply it by the number of seconds 
>fallen. 
 
Ah.  I see what you were doing.  Guess I should have looked at that table 
closer.  At the end of one second then, their numbers are pretty much 
correct, but not earlier in the fall is what you're saying? 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 11:03:56 -0800 (PST) 
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw) 
Subject: Re: Genre vs. Medium (Was Re: Normal Men as Superheroes) 
 
>Okay, but even if the brittle character hasn't gleaned enough from the 
>combat to spot an achilles heel (remember, brittle characters are 
>usually smarter than normal, more observant--they might even have a 
>'find weakness' level or two), there are still ways to avoid the direct 
>punch up.  Getting to a vantge point out of the brick's reach (brittle 
>characters do tend to be more limber, after all), throwing something at 
>them not to hurt them but to delay them....there are *always* ways if 
>the player thinks of them, and as GM I am going to give them the 
>opportunity to think of them, because it's within genre. 
 
The problem is almost all of these can be negated pretty easily...at least 
on the villainous side...by the tried and true brick trick of picking up a 
large object and hurling it.  And unless your villainous bricks are all 
really stupid (I'm not at all sure this is really supported by the genre; 
for every Rhino you have a Mr. Hyde, and this runs on the heroic side too) 
they'll figure that out most likely. 
 
> 
>What I'm not going to do is coddle them and force the issue--there is GM 
>fiat and GM fiat, and I kind of think my way is the best of both 
>worlds--not protecting the PC while giving them ways to work the problem 
>out themselves. 
> 
>>It's still beyond what some of us are willing to 
>> do if it occurs on the fly, and nothing comes to 
>> mind that shouldn't have been obvious earlier 
>> if it was the case.  
> 
>But as GM, you're GOD....you can make these opportunities even if you 
>haven't planned out enough and just tell your players 'it's a standard 
>dark alley.'  The GM should be flexible enough so that, when the players 
>say, "Is there a garbage can lid I can grab hold of (or a garbage can, 
>for that matter), he can say, "Sure."  
 
Problem is, often they've already asked me for some detail before it comes 
up.  And I intensely dislike doing retcon patches. 
 
> 
>After all, one of the truths about RPGs is that they never go exactly as 
>the GM plans--if you can't be improvisational, it's not an RPG--it's a 
>script. 
 
Improvisitation is one thing...cooking the books to protect one particular 
character type is another.  My take on the matter simply is that there's 
ways to give even avowedly normal humans at least surviveability, and rather 
expect people who don't do it get what they deserve.  Giving the low defense 
types 'get out of injury free' cards in effects seems to me to be penelizing 
the people who actually paid for defenses. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 14:35:56 -0500 
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com> 
Subject: Character: Gollum 
 
GOLLUM, FORMER RING-BEARER 
 
14	STR	4 
17	DEX	21 
13	CON	6 
12	BODY	4 
11	INT	1 
13	EGO	6 
10	PRE	0 
6	COM	2 
5	PD	2 
3	ED	0 
3	SPD	3 
6	REC	0 
34	END	4 
26	STUN	0 
Characteristics Cost: 49 
 
0	WF,Unarmed Combat	 
6	3 Levels: Choke Hold	 
12	2D6 HandToHand Attack,"Choke Hold",No Normal Defense,	 
	(Defense: Rigid Neck Armor) 
12	1D6 Killing Attack  HTH,"Bite", Reduced Penetration 
2	2/2 Damage Resistance	 
		 
13	+10 STR Clinging	 
5	Infrared Vision	 
10	Tracking Scent	 
3	Ultrasonic Hearing	 
5	Ultraviolet Vision	 
2	+1" Running 
1	+1" Swimming 
		 
3	Bump Of Direction	 
9	14- Combat Sense	 
		 
3	Breakfall 12-	 
7	Climbing 14-	 
3	Concealment 11-	 
3	Contortionist 12	- 
11	Shadowing 15-	 
13	Stealth 17-	 
3	Survival 11-	 
7	Tracking 13-	 
1	TF,Boats	 
		 
3	AK: Misty Mountains 12-	 
2	AK: Gladden Fields 11-	 
2	AK: Rhovanion 11-	 
3	AK: Cirith Ungol 12- 
		 
0	Lang: Hobbitish, native	 
1	Lang: Westron, Basic Conversation	 
 
Powers Cost: 144 
Total Cost: 193 
 
Base Points: 75 
15	Distinctive Features, "Pitiful Monster", concealable,major 
10	Hunted, "Elves and Rangers", more powerful, mild, appear 8- 
25	Psychological Limitation,"Lust for the One Ring",very common,  
	total 
15	Psychological Limitation,"Split Personality",common,strong 
10	Psychological Limitation,"Fear of Bright Lights and Elven 
	Artifacts", uncommon, strong 
10	Psychological Limitation: "Believes Elven Items burn him", uncommon, 
	strong 
5	Reputation, "Murderous", occur 8- 
10	Vulnerability, "Bright Lights and Elven Weapons", uncommon,  
	x2 effect 
10	Unluck, 2D6 
9	Precious Bonus 
 
Disadvantages Total: 118 
Experience Spent: 0 
Total Points: 193 
 
Gollum was born the hobbit Smeagol in the small Stoor community 
of the Gladden Fields in Third Age 2430.  In about 2463, he and 
his twin brother Deagol found (or were found by) the One Ring, 
which Isildur had lost there two and a half milennia before.  Overcome 
by the power of the Ring, Smeagol murdered Deagol.  His evil ways 
soon caused the Stoors to drive him out and he took refuge in the  
Misty Mountains. 
 
There he lived alone, using the Ring's properties to murder orcs 
and live off of fish for five hundred years.  The Ring 'stretched out'  
his life, breaking his mind and turning him into the pitiful monster 
Bilbo encountered and took the Ring from in 2941.  Despite 
his fear of the Sun and the Moon and his hatred of other living 
things, Gollum emerged from under the Mountains, seeking 
"the Baggins", whom he suspected had his "Precious", the One 
Ring. 
 
Sometime around 3010, Gollum was captured by servants of 
Sauron, and Sauron learned of hobbits and "the Baggins" and 
knew that the One Ring had been found.  Sauron released Gollum 
in 3017, sending him to seek the Ring.  Gollum was captured 
by Aragorn, who turned him over to Gandalf, who gave him to 
the elves of Thranduil's realm for safekeeping.  Gollum escaped 
during a raid on the elves by the forces of Dol Guldur and began 
to search for the Ring.   
 
He met up with the Fellowship outside the West Gate of Khazad- 
Dum and followed the Fellowship through Moria and Lorien.  He 
was captured by Sam and Frodo in the Emyn Muil.  To prevent 
Sauron from recovering the Ring, which he desired for himself, 
Gollum led Sam and Frodo into Mordor through the secret paths 
of Cirith Ungol, but betrayed them to Shelob the spider, hoping 
to recover the One Ring after their deaths.  
 
When this plan failed, he trailed them to Orodruin.  When Frodo 
failed in his attempt to cast the Ring into the Sammath Naur, 
and determined to keep it, the crazed Gollum leapt upon him, 
and bit off Frodo's ring finger, along with the Ring.  Gollum and 
the Ring then both fell into the Sammath Naur, where they were 
destroyed. 
 
Gollum originally looked like a normal hobbit, but his long  
domination by the Ring caused him to become thin, pale 
and ghastly.  His hair was long and stringy, his fingers long 
and webbed and and his eyes became large and luminous. 
His hearing and sense of smell became acute, and he was 
an accomplished master of the stranglehold. 
 
His true name in hobbitish was Trahald, which in Westron 
is translated as Smeagol ("burrowing or worming in").  He 
was called Gollum by Bilbo and Frodo for the copious  
swallowing noises he habitually made.  Sam called him  
"Slinker" and "Stinker" after the two personalities he 
exhibited.  The orcs of Cirith Ungol called him "Her 
Sneak", after his service to Shelob, and he called himself 
simply "Precious", having lost the distinction between 
himself and the One Ring. 
 
NOTES: 
 
1) The Damage Resistence simulates the fact that  
Gollum's flesh was tough and resistant to harm.   
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
(What like a bullet can undeceive!) 
But now they lie low, 
While over them the swallows skim, 
And all is hushed at Shiloh. 
        Herman Melville, Shiloh, A Requiem (April 1862) 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
Scott C. Nolan 
nolan@erols.com   
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 12:00:08 -0800 (PST) 
From: Bryant Durrell <durrell@innocence.com> 
Subject: Re: The 3d6- system sucks! 
 
Filksinger writes: 
> Why not? If X requires a STR roll (or other CHA roll), then it should 
> require a roll, period. Saying, "It requires a roll, except you are 
> too wimpy, you can't do it", or "It requires a roll, but you are too 
> macho" is kludgey. It also leaves a too narrow difference between 
> people "just X enough to have a chance" and "just not-X enough to 
> fail". 
 
This is actually a really interesting issue.  It strikes at the heart 
of the differences between a target number system (roll + skill, try 
to get higher than X) and a roll under system such as Hero. 
 
In a target number system, it's really easy to see when someone's 
strong enough to accomplish a task without rolling.  Is the stat or 
skill above the target number?  Then they don't need to roll.  The 
philosophy here is that some tasks simply are that easy. 
 
Hero subscribes to the concept that there's always a chance of  
failure, which is not invalid but produces the kind of problems you 
see here.  On the other hand, Hero does sneakily include a target 
number mechanism -- roll for Body!  And if you do enough Body, you 
break down the door/knock out the supervillain/etc.  I'm not sure 
it's morally wrong to apply that concept to other characteristic 
rolls, either. 
 
- --  
  Bryant Durrell [] durrell@innocence.com [] http://www.innocence.com/~durrell 
 [----------------------------------------------------------------------------] 
     "It's interesting to live when you are angry."  -- Yevgeny Yevtushenko 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 11:41:17 -0800 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: blocking the heavy hits 
 
From: Tim Gilberg <gilberg@ou.edu> 
<snip> 
> 
> Hmmmm.  Interesting question.  I have a reprint of an early 
>Spiderman that has Spidey 4th behind Thor, Hulk and Thing--That has 
>certainly changed by now. 
 
 
I should certainly say so! 
 
Filksinger 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 12:10:29 -0800 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Strengh Table ?!?! and falling system!!! 
 
From: Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com> 
 
 
<snip> 
>Ah.  I see what you were doing.  Guess I should have looked at that table 
>closer.  At the end of one second then, their numbers are pretty much 
>correct, but not earlier in the fall is what you're saying? 
 
 
Quite correct. The initial second is the biggest dichotomy. Their chart 
shows a falling object as falling twice as far in the first second, but only 
travelling at the same final velocity. As a result, a character falling 5" 
reaches the ground while travelling at 5" per second, which is too low. He 
should reach that speed after 5 meters, not 5 inches. This becomes important 
when determining how much damage is done when you fall off a two story 
house, for example, or out a third story window. 
 
Of course, the HERO System then declares that anyone falling further than 
one second, even 1.2 seconds, for example, takes 10d6 damage. Perhaps the 
chart should be further divided up, so that different heights produce any 
result from 1d6-10d6, going to the +5d6 every second rule only after that. 
 
Filksinger 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 12:26:24 -0800 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: The 3d6- system sucks! 
 
From: Bryant Durrell <durrell@innocence.com> 
 
 
<snip> 
> 
>This is actually a really interesting issue.  It strikes at the heart 
>of the differences between a target number system (roll + skill, try 
>to get higher than X) and a roll under system such as Hero. 
 
 
Actually, I am more concerned with the spread. In the system as it stands, 
very strong normal men and very weak humans are a bit too close together for 
my taste. Making the roll into a 8+CHA/3 changes this somewhat. For example, 
a 25 STR world-class lifter vs a -5 STR 4-year-old becomes a 16- vs a 7- as 
opposed to a 14- vs an 8-. Distinctly different, yet still keeps the general 
flavor. 
 
Of course, to make it balance, you now _may_ have to fiddle with skill 
costs. That would be a playtesting/judgement call. 
 
Filksinger 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 15:49:36 -0500 
From: "Dave Mattingly" <dave@haymaker.win.net> 
Subject: Animal-Men Campaigns 
 
I've put my new Power Point article online: The Beast Within, which covers 
how to add animal-men from Wolverine to Ninja Turtles to your campaign, or 
use them as an entire campaign. 
 
Go to http://www.haymaker.org/haym19.html. 
 
Dave Mattingly 
http://www.haymaker.org 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 15:50:16 -0500 
From: Glen Sprigg <borealis@cois.on.ca> 
Subject: RE: blocking the heavy hits 
 
>> > Of course, being one of the five strongest beings on Marvel Earth, Thor 
>> > using Mjolinor to hit you will probably level a building or  
> 
>> I'm curious. Who are the other four? 
> 
>	Hmmmm.  Interesting question.  I have a reprint of an early 
>Spiderman that has Spidey 4th behind Thor, Hulk and Thing--That has 
>certainly changed by now. 
> 
I'd say Hulk, Juggernaut, Hercules, and Wonder Man.  Mind you, I haven't 
actually read a Marvel comic willingly for a few years now, but from what I 
remember those guys are the cream of the crop.  If we're counting the MC2 
universe (the future of Marvel based on Spider-Girl and such), I'd put J2 
up close to that range. 
 
Glen 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 15:16:28 -0600 (Central Standard Time) 
From: Tim Gilberg <gilberg@ou.edu> 
Subject: Re: GenCon 99  
 
> >        GW?  Not really wargames, in my opinion.  More like 
> >Battletech--Miniatures Lite. 
> > 
> oh yeah. real men play panzer dragoon, or something. 
 
	Well, something historical, usually.  Or at least something with 
more realistic rules than the MoneyPit that is Warhammer.  I've played a 
few Civil War miniatures to see what they're like--not bad, but I really 
prefer TableTop RPGing, LARPing (non-WoD), and miniatures-lite (B-Tech). 
 
> your pawns turn against you! oh wait, can't do that in chess(unless yer a 
> certain doctor). 
> Rpgs, it's quite possible. . 
 
	Then give me chess--those pawns are an important part of my 
attack. 
 
 
					-Tim Gilberg 
			-"English Majors of the World!  Untie!" 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 16:40:06 -0500 
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com> 
Subject: Character: Grima 
 
GRIMA WORMTONGUE 
 
10	STR	0 
12	DEX	6 
10	CON	0 
10	BODY	0 
16	INT	6 
16	EGO	12 
16	PRE	6 
12	COM	1 
3	PD	1 
2	ED	0 
3	SPD	8 
6	REC	4 
26	END	3 
25	STUN	5 
Characteristics Cost: 52 
 
2	WF,Common Melee	 
		 
20	2D6 Drain,"v. EGO",fade rate: per day,Incantation,Extra	 
	Time,time: 1 minute,0 END 
		 
10	2 Levels: PRE-Based Skills (show in parentheses) 
5	Bribery 13- 	 
5	Eavesdropping 13-	 
5	Bureaucratics 13-	 
11	Conversation 16- (18-)	 
3	Cryptography 12-	 
3	Disguise 11-	 
3	Forgery 11-	 
3	Interrogation 12- (14-)	 
11	Persuasion 16- (18-)	 
3	Security Systems 12-	 
11	Seduction 16- (18-)	 
3	Stealth 11- 	 
3	Streetwise 12- (14-)	 
		 
4	13- Contact: Saruman	 
9	18- Contact: Theoden	 
		 
3	KS: Saruman's Plots 12- 
7	KS: Rohan Politics 16-	 
5	KS: Psychology 14-	 
3	AK: Rohan 12-	 
4	AK: Edoras 13-	 
3	AK: Orthanc 12- 
		 
1	Lang: Rohirric,native,literacy	 
5	Lang: Westron,native accent,literacy	 
3	Lang: Black Speech,fluent conversation,literacy	 
 
Powers Cost: 148 
Total Cost: 200 
 
Base Points: 75 
5	Distinctive Features, "Well-known face", easily concealable, 
	 minor 
8	Watched, "Eomer", more powerful, harsh, appear 8- 
10	Watched, "Saruman", more powerful, noncombat influence, 
	harsh, appear 8- 
8	Watched, "Gandalf", more powerful, harsh, appear 8- 
10	Psychological Limitation, "Loyal to Saruman", common, moderate 
10	Psychological Limitation, "Enjoys Twisting words and 
	 meaning", uncommon, strong 
10	Public ID, "Theoden's Councillor" 
10	Reputation, "Wormtongue", occur 11- 
5	Rivalry, "Eomer", professional 
49	Slimeball Bonus 
 
Disadvantages Total: 125 
Experience Spent: 0 
Total Points: 200 
 
Grima was a man of Rohan who rose to become king Theoden's  
sole councillor.  Grima was an agent of Saruman's and used his 
position to poison Theoden's mind with lies, turning him against 
Eomer and weaking Rohan so that Saruman might take it over. 
Grima's reward was to have been marriage to Theoden's niece, 
Eowyn. 
 
During his long tenure, Grima also turned Theoden against 
Gandalf and Gondor, but when Gandalf returned as the White, 
he drove out Grima and threw off the spells he had laid on  
the king.  Grima went to live with Saruman in Orthanc during 
the siege of the Ents, and accompanied him to The Shire 
after the War of the Ring.  Continually mistreated by Saruman, 
Grima slew him and was himself cut down by hobbit archers. 
 
Grima was a short, unctious man with a narrow face and a 
short goatee.  He was a master of conversation and persuasion. 
He was called Wormtongue by the Rohirrim and just Worm 
by Saruman.   
 
NOTES: 
 
1) I have decided to show Grima's exceptional gift of  
brainwashing as a Drain v. Ego.  It could also be simulated 
just with his high level of ability at conversation, persuasion, 
seduction and psychology.   
 
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
(What like a bullet can undeceive!) 
But now they lie low, 
While over them the swallows skim, 
And all is hushed at Shiloh. 
        Herman Melville, Shiloh, A Requiem (April 1862) 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
Scott C. Nolan 
nolan@erols.com   
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 19:39:46 -0500 (EST) 
From: tdj723@webtv.net (thomas deja) 
Subject: Re: Genre vs. Medium (Was Re: Normal Men as Superheroes) 
 
>From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw) 
 
>>And unless your villainous bricks are all really 
>> stupid (I'm not at all sure this is really 
>> supported by the genre; for every Rhino you 
>> have a Mr. Hyde,  
 
...and Mr. Hyde may be smart, but he has psychological limitations tha 
are as obvious as the arrogance on his face that can be exploited and 
used to a 'brittle' character's advantage....there is alwas a way to 
give a character an opportunity to solve the problem himself without 
smearing him on the pavement like a petulant child would. 
 
>>It's still beyond what some of us are willing to 
>> do if it occurs on the fly, and nothing comes 
>> to mind that shouldn't have been obvious 
>> earlier if it was the case.  
 
But, you know, if you can't bend and improvise to make sure the players 
have a good time, the game becomes adversarial.  Surely you agree that 
that's the worse thing that can happen? 
 
And if a GM is prepared enough, even if something happens on the fly, 
you can improvise something without violating the internal logic of 
either the adventure or the world. 
 
>>Problem is, often they've already asked me 
>> for some detail before it comes up. And I 
>> intensely dislike doing retcon patches.  
 
Well then, you should know your characters well enough to be prepared 
when/if "Brittle Man" decides to take on "The Massive Destructor". 
 
>>Improvisitation is one thing...cooking the 
>> books to protect one particular character 
>> type is another. My take on the matter 
>> simply is that there's ways to give even 
>> avowedly normal humans at least 
>> surviveability, and rather expect people who 
>> don't do it get what they deserve. Giving the 
>> low defense types 'get out of injury free' 
>> cards in effects seems to me to be 
>> penelizing the people who actually paid for 
>> defenses.  
 
you know, Wayne, early on I said something to the effect that I give 
them opportunities to work things out for themselves, but that if they 
proceeded to ignore those opportunities, anddecided to face down the 
Massive Destructor regardless of their imbalance, they deserved to be 
squished.  But I'm not going to squish a character until I give him 
several chances to avoid the squishing (and use both his brain and 
clever role-playing) in the process....and isn't role-playing, and not 
combat, what this game is all about? :) 
 
"Many bears talk" 
"Somehow I wouldn't have reckoned they had a lot to say." 
"Talk Goddamn head off.  Always got something to say about bees." 
- --Jonah Hex and Spotted Balls, JONAH HEX: SHADOWS WEST 
_______________________________ 
An except from the new story "The Smoking Glass Grin" can now be found 
at MAKE UP YOUR OWN DAMN TITLE 
www.freeyellow.com/members/tdj, along with "The Net," a complete story 
from the archives....you've been warned. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 11:35:46 +1000 
From: "happyelf" <jonesl@hotkey.net.au> 
Subject: Re: blocking the heavy hits 
 
ocv bonus- only to counteract blocks/block tough attacks, 
based on a size/power sfx. 
valoia 
or something. 
 
- -----Original Message----- 
From: Brian Wawrow <bwawrow@mondello.toronto.fmco.com> 
To: Champeens <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Saturday, February 06, 1999 3:24 AM 
Subject: RE: blocking the heavy hits 
 
 
>] BW> So, given the conversation about bricks vs. martial 
>] artists, I have a 
>] BW> question about blocking. When is a hit too heavy to block? 
>] 
>] Never. 
> 
>Soooo.... Galactus decides to squash you like a bug and you block? That's 
>insane. 
> 
>Consider these attacks: 
>[A] Aunt May takes a 1D6 swing at you with her walker. 
>[B] Thor takes a crack at you with his hammer Mjolnyr, that no mortal 
>[except the Hulk] can even lift. If he misses you, he's going to level the 
>building you're standing in front of. 
> 
>Okay, you're character is a martial artist with some pretty good moves but 
>no superhuman stats. 
> 
>You successfully block the shot. Somewhere between [A] and [B], we come to 
a 
>point where the shot is all you can handle. 
> 
>Please don't tell me this is "genre" because I'm good and sick of hearing 
>about it. I can use examples from a different genre if you like. 
> 
>The ancient red dragon takes comes around with his tail that's as big as a 
>train. Do you block with your short sword? 
> 
>Somebody help me. 
>BRI 
> 
> 
> 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 11:48:48 +1000 
From: "happyelf" <jonesl@hotkey.net.au> 
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes 
 
remember?> base your powers on the comics. he's been through a lot, he's 
tough, 
and it's a force-field, not armor. he survived a radoiactive blast, 
marvel just retconed it as the same one that created spidey. 
Look, i HATE the guy, i really really want to see his fat head get punched 
in, 
he's my most hated of all villains, but,thems the breaks. 
 
 
- -----Original Message----- 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Sunday, February 07, 1999 3:38 AM 
Subject: Re: Normal Men as Superheroes 
 
 
>>>Comics do that a lot, Spiderman is strong enough to lift ten TONS, thats 
>>>with a T, as in 20,000 pounds, as in 5 cars stacked on top of each other. 
>>>Yet he punches Doc Octopus in a massive haymaker, which makes doc fly 
>>>back... and reconsider his strategy. 
>> 
>>doc ock is a bad example. he's a freak really, and i'd say he's a perfect 
>>candidate for extra armor, ect. 
> 
>He's a fat scientist with extra arms, not anything extra.  The fact that 
>they recently gave him combat armor does NOT mean he is anything special, 
>hes still a fat schlub scientist that has arms.  Nothing in his 
>description, background or writeup in the OHOTMU even vaguely suggests he 
>has any other powers, rather the opposite. 
> 
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide 
>Soli Gloria Deo    Solus Christus Corum Deo 
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 11:55:53 +1000 
From: "happyelf" <jonesl@hotkey.net.au> 
Subject: Re: blocking the heavy hits 
 
well, as i've said, tweak it to taste. 
Add a csl with a limt- only vs blocks- based on how big and strong you are, 
maybe 1 lvl per 
dice of damage? 
 
- -----Original Message----- 
From: Brian Wawrow <bwawrow@mondello.toronto.fmco.com> 
To: champs-l@sysabend.org <champs-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Saturday, February 06, 1999 6:34 AM 
Subject: RE: blocking the heavy hits 
 
 
>]         Very, but that's because Galactus' attack is most 
>] likely considered 
>] AE.  That's a rather large fist or foot. 
>Right you are. Gigantic attacks are a bad example. 
> 
><snippage> 
>]         Nope, both are quite blockable.  Remember, there may 
>] very well be no 
>] contact at all with a block.  Try a sidestep.  You're taking 
>] the maneuver 
>] too literally--it's a maneuver that keeps an attacker from 
>] hitting you while 
>] giving you an edge with your next attack--that may be a 
>] stopped move, that 
>] may be a sidestep, that may be a duck, etc. 
> 
>So, what's the difference between a block and a dodge in terms of SFX? 
> 
>What if your special effect is that you physically *block* the attack. For 
>example, suppose you have a shield that's a focus for +4OCV with blocks. If 
>you block an attack that's big enough to destroy the shield, would you get 
>the +4OCV? 
> 
>I understand that there's nothing in the rules that says you may have a 
>problem blocking super heavy attacks. I'm bringing this up in the interest 
>of realism. I know that realism is something of a dirty word with some 
>members of the list here but it's important to my game. 
> 
>Thanks ever so, 
>BRI 
> 
 
------------------------------ 
 
End of champ-l-digest V1 #192 
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