Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 235
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 8:59 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #235
champ-l-digest Friday, March 12 1999 Volume 01 : Number 235
In this issue:
The vagaries of Transform
Re: The vagaries of Transform
Re: The vagaries of Transform
Re: The vagaries of Transform
Re: The vagaries of Transform
Names From the Subcontinent
Re: Anti-Grav (was Teleport Against Other ??? amendment)
Re: High-Tech Medical Equipment
Re: Anti-Grav (was Teleport Against Other ??? amendment)
Re: High-Tech Medical Equipment
Re: Anti-Grav
Re: Zero-Grav
Re: High-Tech Medical Equipment
Re: Zero-Grav
Pun-ishment
Re: High-Tech Medical Equipment
Re: Anti-Grav (was Teleport Against Other ??? amendment)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:03:38 -0800
From: Derek Hiemforth <derekh@employees.org>
Subject: The vagaries of Transform
At 04:14 PM 3/11/99 , Wayne Shaw boldly typed:
>>Then please explain why more Body -- which does not necessarilly mean
>>greater mass -- equates to greater difficulty in making it 'weightless'?
>
>That question could be presented about any number of Transformations. Hands
>for people who think the Gorgons cared how tough something was when that
>thing looked on them? They cared about certain other issues perhaps, but
>not that. Basing Transform on Body is fundamentally a convention because of
>how Transform was based, and the Body relationship doesn't necessarily
>represent anything but a mechanical limiting factor.
(Returning to list after long absence, but jumping right in)
This is why as a GM, I use a lot of leeway in dealing with Transform.
I realize that there must be some mechanical way to determine its success
or failure, but that mechanism cannot logically be the same for every
Transform. I frequently use Transforms that target CON or EGO instead
of BODY (a simple change, since they cost the same as BODY, so no Adv.
or Lim. is really needed). But sometimes you just have to wing it, and
have the Transform targeting something else entirely...perhaps not even
a CHAR. If it should logically target something that seems less costly
or commonly higher than BODY, it may be a Limitation on the Transform.
If it should logically target something more costly or commonly lower
than BODY, they have to pay an Advantage...the level of which is based
on what it's targeting.
Transform is a stop sign power for good reason. Not only can it be
too powerful if used improperly, it can be too weak or illogical if used
improperly. To me, it's a Power that requires a lot of GM oversight.
- - Derek
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:05:05 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: The vagaries of Transform
> This is why as a GM, I use a lot of leeway in dealing with Transform.
>I realize that there must be some mechanical way to determine its success
>or failure, but that mechanism cannot logically be the same for every
>Transform. I frequently use Transforms that target CON or EGO instead
>of BODY (a simple change, since they cost the same as BODY, so no Adv.
>or Lim. is really needed). But sometimes you just have to wing it, and
>have the Transform targeting something else entirely...perhaps not even
>a CHAR. If it should logically target something that seems less costly
>or commonly higher than BODY, it may be a Limitation on the Transform.
>If it should logically target something more costly or commonly lower
>than BODY, they have to pay an Advantage...the level of which is based
>on what it's targeting.
> Transform is a stop sign power for good reason. Not only can it be
>too powerful if used improperly, it can be too weak or illogical if used
>improperly. To me, it's a Power that requires a lot of GM oversight.
I normally don't bother with this level of distinction except in the case of
Mental Transforms, but it seems a reasonable approach; one could even
formalize it by applying limitations or advantages...or alternatively by
changing the necessary multiple needed. For example, a Transform that
targeted Intelligence could require 4x INT to take effect since Intelligence
is half the cost of Ego or Body.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:33:50 -0800
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: The vagaries of Transform
>changing the necessary multiple needed. For example, a Transform that
>targeted Intelligence could require 4x INT to take effect since
Intelligence
>is half the cost of Ego or Body.
Wouldn't you want it to be a lower multiple, rather than a larger one?
Really, it probably shouldn't be based on the cost, but how high the stat
generally is, though.
JAJ, GP
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:45:45 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: The vagaries of Transform
From: Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com>
<snip>
>
>I normally don't bother with this level of distinction except in the case
of
>Mental Transforms, but it seems a reasonable approach; one could even
>formalize it by applying limitations or advantages...or alternatively by
>changing the necessary multiple needed. For example, a Transform that
>targeted Intelligence could require 4x INT to take effect since
Intelligence
>is half the cost of Ego or Body.
Don't base it upon cost. Cost isn't the factor in determining what defenses
make AVLD more expensive, for example; it's based upon their rarity. Make
the different costs based upon how commonly a characteristic is higher or
lower than BODY.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:34:51 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: The vagaries of Transform
>>changing the necessary multiple needed. For example, a Transform that
>>targeted Intelligence could require 4x INT to take effect since
>Intelligence
>>is half the cost of Ego or Body.
>
>
>Wouldn't you want it to be a lower multiple, rather than a larger one?
>Really, it probably shouldn't be based on the cost, but how high the stat
>generally is, though.
You're correct about both, of course...I was having a brain failure. Basing
on cost was just a first order approximation. For the most part, it'd be
much harder in a typical Champions game effecting someone with Strength
based Transform than an Intelligence one.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:42:56 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Names From the Subcontinent
Does anyone know of a good resource for given and family names from
India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and that general part of the world?
(Please respond either directly, or to just one of the above lists!) :-]
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:00:54 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Anti-Grav (was Teleport Against Other ??? amendment)
At 02:29 PM 3/11/99 -0800, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Curt Hicks writes:
>
>> I like Change Environment as well. What advantages do you feel are needed
>> other than area effect ?
>
>Change environment needs the 'does something useful' advantage, since by
>default it cannot affect combat (or much else), and zero gravity definately
>affects combat. This may be resolved in 5th edition.
I think it will be.
Of course, for 4th Edition, I was mainly working on a change of
direction. If you want to create a zero-G environment, that's different.
What I do is define Gravity as a Limited form of TK, and apply
anti-gravity as Suppress Telekinesis in an appropriate Area of Effect.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 00:58:20 -0500
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: High-Tech Medical Equipment
> It's probably a variety of routine things, including blood typing,
>checks for proper body chemistry, and examinations for illegal drugs.
> This looks to me like a good tool for paramedics as well as emergency
>rooms and clinics. Thanks! :-]
>---
I believe I've seen this advertised as for checking blood sugar on diabetics.
============================
Geoff Heald
============================
"Good night, Mary Ellen"
"Good night, John Boy."
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:08:20 -0600 (CST)
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Subject: Re: Anti-Grav (was Teleport Against Other ??? amendment)
> From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
> I think it will be.
> Of course, for 4th Edition, I was mainly working on a change of
> direction. If you want to create a zero-G environment, that's different.
> What I do is define Gravity as a Limited form of TK, and apply
> anti-gravity as Suppress Telekinesis in an appropriate Area of Effect.
> ---
That seems like a good way to cost out the power. However what is
the *effect* of the power? With minimal thought, the only thing I
can think of is that targets in a zero G field take the full body
of an attack as knockback....
Curt
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 08:02:13 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven J. Owens" <puff@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: High-Tech Medical Equipment
Filksinger (filksinger@usa.net) wrote:
> I just remembered one. Somebody has used micro-manufacturing
> techniques to design an ultra-miniature blood testing lab. The tester
> is so small that the drop of blood covers the sensors entirely. It
> attached to a small handle, and inserted into a slightly larger
> machine to read the results.
Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> wrote:
> Keen gear! Any idea how long it takes, and what exactly it tests for?
Filksinger replied:
> As I understand it is supposed to be very fast. However, the
> publicity releases on it seemed to imply that it could do _all_
> tests, without specifics, which I do not believe. I believe it did
> state that it could do "standard" tests, but I am not certain what
> they mean when they say "standard".
Bob replied:
> It's probably a variety of routine things, including blood typing,
> checks for proper body chemistry, and examinations for illegal drugs.
> This looks to me like a good tool for paramedics as well as emergency
> rooms and clinics. Thanks! :-]
geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net> commented:
> I believe I've seen this advertised as for checking blood sugar on
> diabetics.
Over the past year I've read several articles in MIT Technology
Review and Wired, about these puppies. The length ranged from brief
1-paragraph blurbs, to a couple pages. I thought I'd read one in the
latest issue of Wired but I can't find it in the March issue, so check
december to february.
I think what Geoff is talking about is a separate thing, though,
if I recall correctly it uses light to analyze your blood without
actually taking a sample. Presumably this is done on some part of
your body (perhaps the web of skin between the thumb and forefinger)
where you could reasonably shine a strong light and read it through
the skin.
Hm... a little search on wired shows a story about using a laser
to take the blood sample, but it apparently is an invasive technique,
just painless and faster.
http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/16799.html
Wired has gotten fairly pallid lately, so there's nothing in the
way of technology info, but there is a quote near the end of the
article that talks about this someday leading to the box you just
stick your finger into and you get an immediate reading.
I'm pretty sure I read somewhere about a non-invasive tecnique
that actually used light to analyze the blood, but I can't remember
where offhand.
I have only vague memories about the other device and it doesn't
appear in a search for "blood analysis", or "blood medicine" or
"medical technology" on the hotwired site. If I recall correctly, it
essentially uses a surface covered with thousands of molecule-sized
spots. These spots are "sticky" for specific chemicals, so the tool
can indeed be used to test for a multitude of things, but only stuff
we already know about. How they're sticky, I'm not sure. It
mighthave been something about the spots actually being "holes" that
only fit certain molecules.
I also remember reading about a similar technology only in
reverse - thousands of microscopic drug dosages that can be released
in a controlled fashion (possibly even by an electronic signal).
Steven J. Owens
puff@netcom.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 11:15:38 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Anti-Grav
At 09:08 AM 3/12/99 -0600, Curt Hicks wrote:
>> From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
>
>> I think it will be.
>> Of course, for 4th Edition, I was mainly working on a change of
>> direction. If you want to create a zero-G environment, that's different.
>> What I do is define Gravity as a Limited form of TK, and apply
>> anti-gravity as Suppress Telekinesis in an appropriate Area of Effect.
>> ---
>
>That seems like a good way to cost out the power. However what is
>the *effect* of the power? With minimal thought, the only thing I
>can think of is that targets in a zero G field take the full body
>of an attack as knockback....
Well, for one thing, all traditional ground movement is unusable in Zero
G, unless the character has Clinging.
For purposes of Knockback, all targets are treated as Flying (this means
1d6 for most normal attacks, 2d6 for martial or killing attacks, 3d6 for
martial killing attacks).
Other suggested effects can be found in TUMA, page 200.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:29:16 -0600 (CST)
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Subject: Re: Zero-Grav
> >
> >That seems like a good way to cost out the power. However what is
> >the *effect* of the power? With minimal thought, the only thing I
> >can think of is that targets in a zero G field take the full body
> >of an attack as knockback....
>
> Well, for one thing, all traditional ground movement is unusable in Zero
> G, unless the character has Clinging.
> For purposes of Knockback, all targets are treated as Flying (this means
> 1d6 for most normal attacks, 2d6 for martial or killing attacks, 3d6 for
> martial killing attacks).
> Other suggested effects can be found in TUMA, page 200.
>
yeah, I realized the movement thing this afternoon. I'm not sure
whether I agree on knockback being treated as flying, except for
the characters that are actually flying.
does TUMA actually have writeups for different environmental effects ?
I'd also be interested in heavier gravity as well as lighter gravity
effectts....
Curt
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:49:34 PST
From: "Jesse Thomas" <haerandir@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: High-Tech Medical Equipment
On Tue, 9 Mar 1999 "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com> wrote:
>But honestly, it does fit in to the basic Transform power type: it's
>basically an all-or-nothing effect (either your heart is started or it
>isn't), it's a reversible effect (hit them with the defibrillator again
>or do something else to stop their heart), and it deals with things
that
>really aren't part of the game mechanics (cardiac arrest) so there's
not
>a better way to do it.
Stop thinking about mechanics for a moment. Ask yourself, "What does a
heart attack do?" It kills people. There are at least 6 powers that
have killing people as their primary or secondary effect. Why create
more? Further, if it fails to kill someone, it hurts them very badly,
leaving them temporarily weakened, unable to walk, etc. In the
HeroSystem, these effects are generally simulated by the Damage rules.
There are, again, at least 6 powers that do damage as their primary
effect.
Transform is, in fact, not the best power for the special effects in
question. The best power for the special effects is one that has the
potential to create a range of conditions which simulate injury, ranging
from momentary discomfort all the way to instant death. Transform,
being a binary power, does not provide this effect. If a
Transform-based Heart Attack doesn't kill you, you won't even know you
had it. No going to the doctor and asking how to change your
diet/lifestyle to prevent a recurrence. No sudden religious insights.
Your way would seriously degrade the quality of life in the Champions
Universe. Of course, maybe that's why there's so many supervillains.
With undetectable heart attacks, fewer people are forced to confront
their own mortality, leading to a culture that is more prone to
selfishness and greed...
An EB or even Telekinesis would be more appropriate than Transform, but
an RKA would be even better.
>Of course, if your GM is the type that compulsively writes up
>/everything/, well, then you have more of a point. (But how would you
>write up the common cold? /Should/ you even write up the common cold?)
If I want to give a character the power to cure the common cold, then
yes, I should have a mechanism in mind for how I (or my GM) intend to
handle the common cold.
>
>You could always ask them. That's what I generally do...
>
Well, for that matter, so do I. Rather than flippantly dismissing what
is obviously an exaggerated case intended as an example, you might
consider thinking about the ideas it is meant to illustrate. Or would
that force you to run the risk of changing your mind?
Jesse Thomas
haerandir@hotmail.com
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:52:28 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Zero-Grav
At 03:29 PM 3/12/99 -0600, Curt Hicks wrote:
>yeah, I realized the movement thing this afternoon. I'm not sure
>whether I agree on knockback being treated as flying, except for
>the characters that are actually flying.
Any character who is "in the air" -- that is, not "anchored" to the
ground" -- is treated as flying for purposes of Knockback. This includes
characters who are falling, leaping, Diving for Cover (usually with a
failed roll), etc.
>does TUMA actually have writeups for different environmental effects ?
>I'd also be interested in heavier gravity as well as lighter gravity
>effectts....
No, it really only discusses Zero-G as far as gross environments go.
There are some short bits on fighting among clutter, on slippery ground,
underwater, and so forth (though a much better sourcebook for the latter is
Atlantis).
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:40:36 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Pun-ishment
My next need:
Gadgets based on puns.
The worse the pun, the better the gadget! :-]
(Even if nobody here ever uses any of the suggestions, this should be fun!)
So far I can only think of one: the rocket lawnchair. This handy
little device is a lightweight folding chair with a pair of rockets on
either side -- handy for that quick escape.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:45:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Dale Ward <daleaward@rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: High-Tech Medical Equipment
Greetings!
- ---Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> wrote:
>
> From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
>
> >At 11:08 AM 3/11/99 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
> >>I just remembered one. Somebody has used micro-manufacturing techniques to
> >>design an ultra-miniature blood testing lab. The tester is so small that
> >
> > Keen gear! Any idea how long it takes, and what exactly it tests for?
>
> As I understand it is supposed to be very fast. However, the publicity
> releases on it seemed to imply that it could do _all_ tests, without
> specifics, which I do not believe. I believe it did state that it could do
> "standard" tests, but I am not certain what they mean when they say
> "standard".
It sounds very much like the device that I use to check my blood glucose
level (I'm diabetic).
I'm not sure about Filksinger's device, Bob, but mine takes 30 seconds to
determine the amount of glucose in the blood... mg of glucose per dl of blood.
For the record, 80 - 120 is considered the normal range... if anyone is
interested.
Dale A. Ward
~Diagonally Parked In A Parallel Universe~
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:46:38 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Anti-Grav (was Teleport Against Other ??? amendment)
>> From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
>
>> I think it will be.
>> Of course, for 4th Edition, I was mainly working on a change of
>> direction. If you want to create a zero-G environment, that's different.
>> What I do is define Gravity as a Limited form of TK, and apply
>> anti-gravity as Suppress Telekinesis in an appropriate Area of Effect.
>> ---
>
>That seems like a good way to cost out the power. However what is
>the *effect* of the power? With minimal thought, the only thing I
>can think of is that targets in a zero G field take the full body
>of an attack as knockback....
It would probably also pretty much neutralize any amount of Running/Swimming
(though God knows I'd hate to figure out the effect of a zero-g field in an
area with water in it), and has some _very_ odd and hard to figure effects
on leaping. In addition, it should seriously impede melee skills of people
not trained to deal with it, and at least somewhat impede range weapons
skills where people are used to recoil or the effect of gravity on a projectile.
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #235
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