Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 262
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Sunday, April 04, 1999 5:29 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #262
champ-l-digest Sunday, April 4 1999 Volume 01 : Number 262
In this issue:
Re: superpatriots and other madmen
Re: HOUSE RULE: Super Speedy Skills
Re: superpatriots and other madmen
Re: superpatriots and other madmen
Re: superpatriots and other madmen
General request for opinions. erm, poll thingie if you will.
Re: General request for opinions. erm, poll thingie if you will.
Re: HOUSE RULE: Super Speedy Skills
Re: General request for opinions. erm, poll thingie if you will.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 16:08:39 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: superpatriots and other madmen
Call me kooky, but what exactly does this have to do with Champions?
Please take it private :)
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 20:39:10 EST
From: ErolB1@aol.com
Subject: Re: HOUSE RULE: Super Speedy Skills
In a message dated 99-04-01 12:43:05 EST, filkhero@usa.net writes:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
> <snip>
>
> >
> > Alternately, you can always just buy normal skill levels and use them
> > to offset the penalty for doing things quicker than normal. The penalty
> > would be calculated just as the extra time bonus is.
>
> And a character with a 14- in Mechanics can take a mechanic job that should
> take 5 hours, and by dropping to an 11-, take only 5 minutes?
>
> Sorry, but not in my campaign.
>
> Filksinger
I agree with Filksinger on this one. If you want to go this route, apply the
"Extraordinary Skills" option (BBB p 19) and give the character a -10 or
greater penalty to do things faster than normal: Maybe -10 per level faster
on the time chart.
This way, a super-skilled starship engineer with Mechanics 21- has a chance
to pull a "Scotty" and do a five hour job in only one hour by making a 11-
roll. Speedsters can also buy a bunch of 5 or 10 pt levels and apply a limit
"only to do things faster" (-1/2?), giving something resembling the proposed
"super speedy skill levels"
Erol K. Bayburt
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 20:58:45 -0500 (EST)
From: arcus@webtv.net (chrisopher spoor)
Subject: Re: superpatriots and other madmen
WAy off topic, but with all the talk about tourist I got to ask. If it's
tourist season, why can't we shoot "em? [:8) ( question asked
continually during the summer in Northern Michigan )
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 00:57:47 +1000
From: "Lockie" <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: superpatriots and other madmen
- -----Original Message-----
From: Tim Gilberg <gilberg@ou.edu>
> Well, european-american culture is quite short no matter
>what--now, as for truly american cultures--note the plural--well, they've
>been around for quite a bit longer.
>
those cultures were not american. American started when some white guy
turned up there.
yes there were cultures before, but please. Try to realsie that white people
have culture, too.
And theirs started the same time as everyone elses, just in another country.
>> some real flaws (frequent ethnocentrism to the point of ignorance and
>> rudeness) and some imagined (the perception of the american national
>> character as "childish") we have quite a bit to be proud of. What is
>> it you think we need to apologize for?
>
> Quite a bit to be proud of? Maybe, but we hear about that
>constantly. We so rarely get to hear about all the horrors and ugly spots
>of american history and culture--and by american I mean european-american
>and the united states in particular. I'm sorry, but a few jokes about
>rude Americans wearing shorts to the Notre Dame cathederal doesn't count.
>
We hear about horrors too often, as in an innacurate way- such as equating
the actions of
the americans of the past to the modern alglo american and his other nation
counterparts.
As if it's pertinent to talk about the horrors of such a period in a way
which compares it to the
current day- despite the fact that the two are radically different
situations, ands only ONE has the
benefit of hindsight. I suppose the massivly better conditions and beliefs
in freedom of most of
the western world don't count either. I suppose nobody is alowed to be proud
of their culture's
achievements unless they have victim cred, hmm? And people say pc is dead.
And what about the horrible parts of amerind culture? Everyone has a nasty
past, it's up to us
to apreciate the benefits of our time and genuinly learn from the past- not
repeat it's mistakes by
replacing one set of ethnic and cultural elites with another. And yes, those
new elites will be just
as empty and eventually culturally bankrupt as their predecessors, it's not
like any of this is a
REAL celebration or continuation of anyones culture. It's more a
meta-culture of it's own, one
or gratuitous abuse of logic in the name of unending self-righteousness.
Blatantly one-sided views of history like this from educated middle class
people make it much harder for people like me to rebut dinks like pauline
hanson(aus bigot person who i thought was dead, turns out she gutted the
other conservatives for votes again at the last state election), than an
entire pickup truck full
of redneck neonazi sheet-wearers can with all the whooping and hollering in
the world. I get tired
of hearing people talk in what they consider an anti-racist way, but what is
really a perpetuation
of the same narrow-minded b.s. that allowed racism to flourish for so long,
and looks likely
to create an equivalent structure if it keeps being perpetuated. Now, i'm
not going to talk
on this anymore, and i suggest everyone does the same relativly soon.
>
> -Tim Gilberg
> -"English Majors of the World! Untie!"
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 00:58:44 +1000
From: "Lockie" <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: superpatriots and other madmen
doh, should have read ahead. sorry.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Sunday, April 04, 1999 10:04 AM
Subject: Re: superpatriots and other madmen
>Call me kooky, but what exactly does this have to do with Champions?
>Please take it private :)
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
>Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 02:06:39 +1000
From: "Lockie" <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
Subject: General request for opinions. erm, poll thingie if you will.
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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I'm currently gming champions for five people. I've been making jugement =
Calls in what i consider a=20
solid way so far, but i think the time is approaching where two of the =
players may challenge some of=20
my xp decisions- mostly because they are behind in xp right now. I'm not =
looking for a horde of emails to=20
toss at them as 'proof' of my 'unilateral worldwide gm support', rather =
i'm interested in how all you lot
would handle similar situations. Here's how stuff breaks down.=20
I started their latest batch at 300 pts, due to the changes in campaign =
we've had. There were=20
to relativly stable runs before this with different characters in the =
same world, during wich they=20
earnt roughly 50 xp each for their respective c's. So, i figured, start =
them all at 300, slightly higher.=20
So far there's only been one problem- the same player i've posted about =
before. He's often not
done very much in a game, done nothing at all, repeatedly sought to =
avoid whatever situation=20
the group was in, or done seemingly suicidal things, like using his =
dimensional travel power
to travel to the ninth plane of hell- not for any reason, he just felt =
like it. Then there was the time=20
his alien was being covered by three of the exterminators, and he tried =
attacking them,=20
after provoking them twice- they never actually initiated hostilities on =
him, and he was meant=20
to be a pacifist(according to the player). Whenever he fails, he cites =
the other players playing combat monsters,=20
even though there's only one rules-rape in the game ever- him. His alien =
psycic had a mental speed
of 12 fro teh first few games, not that he used it for anything.=20
The result of this is he's at about 305 while the other two players at =
that time were at 310. As for the others, one's a hka-er (a protoss =
scout from the time of adun, i.e. modern day by our standards, his =
description of his attacks is 'hack and slash, hack and slash') and the =
other has a REALLY tough suit of battle armor- but little in the way of =
mental, power or other defenses. He also gets chased a lot, since all =
the baddies want the blueprints for his inertial dampers. They're tough =
characters, but they paind their points for their powers, while the =
other guy is continually looking to suck all the points he can out- ah =
well all know what i'm talking about.=20
hardcore powergamer. The other two aren't perfect, but there's clearly =
an order of magnitude issue here.=20
This last game two, new players joined, and i finally fixed the xp =
standard. Simply, i give one xp for=20
a standard effort(turning up and playing, basically), one for =
exceptional roleplaying, and one for=20
exceptional strategy(i.e, that's the point that winning or losing =
matters for, but it takes challenges=20
into account). This might seem high, but it's reasonable for the =
challenges they face, not to mention=20
the nasty way the plot keep twisting (eg). I also used the rule i always =
had- namely a one point bonus=20
for a new players first game, if they worked well and weren't to much of =
a hassle to get going-=20
understandable for a first time, but worth a reward if it's avoided.=20
Thing is, when these two started, i started them each at 310 like the =
other two,=20
partially becasue their character creation involved more non-cobat stuff =
that the existing c's, and=20
partly becasue they weren't too sure about character creation- i called =
the shots more. Also,=20
i didn't see any reason to start them on 300, everyone was above that, =
they should start from a baseline,=20
i juged it unfair to let the sinlge other guys' low xp determine this =
baseline. =20
Now, in the game, the two new players did very well, indeed, both =
earning (and i mean earning)=20
four xp, including the newbie bonus. This put them (you guessed it) =
AHEAD of not only the guy
on 305 xp, but the other two- all three clocked up 3 xp- and that was me =
being a little understanding.=20
The new guys were a nice change after some of the one-track-minds of the =
other players.=20
Now, the guy formerly on 305 xp has a big problem with them startign =
ahead of him. I've tried to explain to him that his xp reflects
his performance, and they should not be penalised by it, and so on, and =
on, and ON, but he is being really
irrational. He also tends to have a very one-sided view- hence, =
according to him they get a free ride due to their 310 start,=20
but his demand to be upped to 310 too is perfectly reasonable. Again =
according to him, the other players are powergamers
and rules rapists for paying bulk points for a small number of =
mid-to-high powers, while he's not despite continually expecting a c =
with 12 spd, 30 def, and at least 1 body regen. It's amasing how many =
different sorts of c's happen to end up with those charicteristics.=20
And so on. and ON.=20
Now, i've pretty much given up on talking sense to this guy, he seems =
uninterested so=20
i've made it clear he shoulds choose wether to play or not. He's been =
threatening to quit well,=20
for about three months, and i've thus far kept him in, but it's really =
wearing thin.=20
He's highly inacive in the game and tends to avoid any situation =
whatsoever, and=20
continually shows very bad jugement and an=20
unwillngness to accept any challenge, but he claims he deserves the same =
xp as everyone=20
else, or at elast the new players should be dragged down to his level =
instaed of the common one.=20
I have no real problem saying no to that. They deserve to start where =
theay are, and his is the=20
xp of a below-average performance, not a new character.=20
Problem is, one of the other non-new guys has aparently got a problem =
with the face that his c is=20
ONE xp behind the two new characters. They all had 310 at the start of =
the game, he=20
got 3 more, they got 4. Aparently this is a major issue for him, or =
threatens to be. I'd like=20
some feedback in case it's raised next time i meet with them. I want to =
know wether
i've led these guys to the wrong conclusions.=20
So, i'm asking for general opinions. Is the xp too much? Too little?=20
Is it fair to reward new players with this 1-off bonus? Is 1 xp a big =
deal?
Is it fair to start them on 310 instead of 305? ect, ect, ect?=20
Any responses would be welcome, i won't argue, though i may=20
ask questions if it gets me closer to the way these guys think.
I'd like to think there's a good gamer inside everyone if i can just=20
get the spin right.=20
For fun(and i've never done it before), here's a list of the c's:
Raven- air mage, one of the new players' c's, has a 60pt=20
vpp pool which he's used very well, plus some low-level=20
stats and skills. Came to the game with a good bg prepared
about a quartet of elementalists who aprentive for a mysterious=20
overmage.=20
Beta- cybernetic ninja, the other new player, sword multipower with=20
an ap blade a nnd phase blade and a deflector blade settings.=20
IC, he thinks he escaped from a weapons plant, but is really a =
plausibly
deniable beta-test of the product.=20
Blackjack- power armor, very tough, as in 40/40rpdred with 20/20 =
nonresistant
on top. He gets hunted a lot, and no he didn't get points for them.=20
in my game, big ap power=3Dtarget symbol for all sorts of people.=20
(used to be in the brit team the union jacks,=20
but became an outcast. . geddit? This is the one who might
have a problem with the 1 xp issue, i think i might have let=20
him run loose a little too much.)
ERm. . psycic alien guy- a little green man with psy powers, who keeps. =
. uh. .=20
changing (as his player tinkers and swops points around, which i've =
allowed him to=20
do a few times since this is the only c he's lasted past a single game =
in a while.=20
Believe it or not, i don't have a kill-wish on this guy(i'm amazed i =
don't, too)=20
he just keeps doing really, really really really REALLY stupid things. =
Like=20
taking a stroll in hell and trying to sell nukes to prehistoric =
aboriginies despite
placing a 'watched: time police' on his tim travlers character sheet. =
Then there
was the 'i'll just go back in time and fix whatever i do wrong' =
syndrome,=20
which i put a stop to when i ruled that daemon he'd enraged wasn't =
effected by=20
the changes to the prime planes timeline. It was that, or clamp down =
time change=20
altogether, and he's just the time to bring that up very loudly the =
first time i actually=20
change the timeline in a scenario. )=20
The protoss scout: between names, after i revised his c. It=20
was originalyl a combat monster, i toned it down and added some minor =
mental=20
powers and such, while maintaining the same cv, speed, and damage class. =
That happens if you come to my game one week with a 4d6 hka, and the =
next with a=20
6d6 autofire penetrating hka, extra csl's, and two more points of speed. =
Just think about that for a mo. . penetrating autofire hka. . . . . .
Hmm, i think i ranted on my players a bit here. . . oh well, thoughts?
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<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I'm currently gming champions for =
five people.=20
I've been making jugement Calls in what i consider a </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>solid way so =
far, but i=20
think the time is approaching where two of the players may challenge =
some of=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>my xp decisions- mostly because they are behind in =
xp right=20
now. I'm not looking for a horde of emails to </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>toss at them as 'proof' of my 'unilateral worldwide =
gm=20
support', rather i'm interested in how all you lot</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>would handle similar situations. Here's how stuff =
breaks down.=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I started their latest batch at 300 pts, due to the =
changes in=20
campaign we've had. There were </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>to relativly stable runs before this with different =
characters=20
in the same world, during wich they </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>earnt roughly 50 xp each for their respective c's. =
So, i=20
figured, start them all at 300, slightly higher. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>So far there's only been one problem- the same =
player i've=20
posted about before. He's often not</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>done very much in a game, done nothing at all, =
repeatedly=20
sought to avoid whatever situation </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>the group was in, </FONT><FONT size=3D2>or done =
seemingly=20
suicidal things, like using his dimensional travel power</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>to travel to the ninth plane of hell- not for any =
reason, he=20
just felt like it. Then there was the time </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>his alien was being covered by three of the =
exterminators, and=20
he tried attacking them, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>after provoking them twice- they never actually =
initiated=20
hostilities on him, and he was meant </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>to be a pacifist(according to the =
player)</FONT><FONT size=3D2>.=20
Whenever he fails, he cites the other players playing combat monsters,=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>even though there's only one rules-rape in the game =
ever- him.=20
His alien psycic had a mental speed</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>of 12 fro teh first few games, not that he used it =
for=20
anything. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>The result </FONT><FONT size=3D2>of this is he's at =
about 305=20
while the other </FONT><FONT size=3D2>two players at that time were at =
310. As for=20
the others, one's a hka-er (a protoss scout from the time of adun, <FONT =
size=3D2>i.e. modern day by our standards, his description of his =
attacks is 'hack=20
and slash, hack and slash') and the other has a REALLY tough suit of =
battle=20
armor- but little </FONT><FONT size=3D2>in the way of mental, power or =
other=20
defenses. He also gets chased a lot, since all the baddies want the =
</FONT><FONT=20
size=3D2>blueprints for his inertial dampers. They're tough characters, =
but they=20
paind their points for their powers, while </FONT>the other guy is =
continually=20
looking to suck all the points he can out- ah well all know what i'm =
talking=20
about. </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>hardcore powergamer. The other two aren't perfect, but there's =
clearly an=20
order of magnitude issue here. </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>This last game two, </FONT><FONT =
size=3D2>new=20
</FONT><FONT size=3D2>players joined, and i finally fixed the xp =
standard. Simply,=20
i give one xp for </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>a standard effort(turning up and </FONT><FONT =
size=3D2>playing,=20
basically), one </FONT><FONT size=3D2>for exceptional roleplaying, and =
one for=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>exceptional strategy(i.e, that's the </FONT><FONT =
size=3D2>point=20
that winning or losing matters for, but it takes challenges =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>into account). </FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2>This might=20
seem high, but it's reasonable for the challenges they face, not to =
mention=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2>the nasty way=20
</FONT><FONT size=3D2>the plot keep twisting (eg). </FONT><FONT =
size=3D2>I also used=20
the rule i always had- namely </FONT><FONT size=3D2>a one point bonus=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>for a new players first game, </FONT><FONT =
size=3D2>if they=20
worked well and weren't to much of a hassle to get going- </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>understandable for a first time, but </FONT><FONT =
size=3D2>worth=20
a reward if it's avoided. </FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Thing is, when these two started, i started them =
each at 310=20
like the other two, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>partially becasue their character creation involved =
more=20
non-cobat stuff that the existing c's, and </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>partly becasue they weren't too sure about character =
creation-=20
i called the shots more. Also, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>i didn't see any reason to start them on 300, =
everyone was=20
above that, they should start from a baseline, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>i juged it unfair to let the sinlge other guys' low =
xp=20
determine this baseline. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Now, in the game, the two new players did very well, =
indeed,=20
both earning (and i mean earning) </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>four xp, including the newbie bonus. This put them =
(you=20
guessed it) AHEAD of not only the guy</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>on 305 xp, but the other two- all three clocked up 3 =
xp- and=20
that was me being a little understanding. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>The new guys were a nice change after some of the=20
one-track-minds of the other players. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Now, the guy formerly </FONT><FONT size=3D2>on 305 =
xp has a big=20
problem with them startign ahead of him. I've tried to explain to him =
that his=20
xp reflects</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>his performance, and they should not be penalised by =
it, and=20
so on, and on, and ON, but he is being really</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>irrational. He also tends to have a very one-sided =
view-=20
hence, according to him they get a free ride due to their 310 start,=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>but his demand to be upped to 310 too is perfectly =
reasonable.=20
Again according to him, the other players are powergamers</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>and rules rapists for paying bulk points for a small =
number of=20
mid-to-high powers, while he's not despite continually expecting a c =
with 12=20
spd, </FONT><FONT size=3D2>30 def, and at least 1 body regen. It's =
amasing how=20
many different sorts of c's happen to end up with those charicteristics. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>And so on. and ON. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Now, i've pretty much given up on talking sense to =
this guy,=20
he seems uninterested so </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>i've made it clear he shoulds choose wether to play =
or not.=20
He's been threatening to quit well, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>for about three months, and i've thus far kept him =
in, but=20
it's really wearing thin. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>He's highly inacive in the game and </FONT><FONT =
size=3D2>tends=20
to avoid any situation whatsoever, and </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>continually shows very bad jugement and an =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>unwillngness to accept any challenge, </FONT><FONT =
size=3D2>but=20
he claims he deserves the same xp as everyone </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>else, or at elast the new players should be dragged =
down to=20
his </FONT><FONT size=3D2>level instaed of the common one. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I have no real problem saying no to that. They =
deserve to=20
start where theay are, and his is the </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>xp of a below-average performance, not a new =
character.=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Problem is, one of the other non-new guys has =
aparently got a=20
problem with the face that his c is </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>ONE xp behind the two new characters. They all had =
310 at the=20
start of the game, he </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>got 3 more, they got 4. Aparently this is a major =
issue for=20
him, or threatens to be. I'd like </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>some feedback in case it's raised next time i meet =
with them.=20
I want to know wether</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>i've led these guys to the wrong conclusions. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>So, i'm asking for general opinions. Is the xp too =
much? Too=20
little? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Is it fair to reward new players with this 1-off =
bonus? Is 1=20
xp a big deal?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Is it fair to start them on 310 instead of 305? ect, =
ect, ect?=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Any responses would be welcome, i won't argue, =
though i may=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>ask questions if it gets me closer to the way these =
guys=20
think.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I'd like to think there's a good gamer inside =
everyone if i=20
can just </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>get the spin right. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>For fun(and i've never done it before), here's a =
list of the=20
c's:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Raven- air mage, one of the new =
players' c's,=20
has a 60pt </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>vpp pool which =
he's used=20
very well, plus some low-level </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>stats and skills. Came to the game with a good bg=20
prepared</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>about a quartet of elementalists who aprentive for a =
mysterious </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>overmage. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Beta- cybernetic ninja, the other new player, sword =
multipower=20
with </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>an ap blade a nnd phase blade and a deflector blade =
settings.=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>IC, he thinks he escaped from =
a weapons=20
plant, but is really a plausibly</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>deniable beta-test of the product. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Blackjack- power armor, very tough, =
as in=20
40/40rpdred with 20/20 nonresistant</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>on top. He =
gets hunted a=20
lot, and no he didn't get points for them. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>in my game, big ap power=3Dtarget symbol for all =
sorts of=20
people. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>(used to be in the brit team =
the union=20
jacks, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>but became an =
outcast. .=20
geddit? This is the one who might</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>have a problem with the 1 xp issue, i think i might =
have let=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>him run loose a little too much.</FONT><FONT=20
size=3D2>)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>ERm. . psycic alien guy- a little green man with psy =
powers,=20
who keeps. . uh. . </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>changing (as his player tinkers and swops points =
around, which=20
i've allowed him to </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>do a few times since this is the only c he's lasted =
past a=20
single game in a while. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Believe it or not, i don't have a kill-wish on this =
guy(i'm=20
amazed i don't, too) </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>he just keeps doing really, really really really =
REALLY stupid=20
things. Like </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>taking a stroll in hell and trying to sell nukes to=20
prehistoric aboriginies despite</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>placing a 'watched: time police' on his tim travlers =
character=20
sheet. Then there</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>was the 'i'll just go back in time and fix whatever =
i do=20
wrong' syndrome, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>which i put a stop to when i ruled that daemon he'd =
enraged=20
wasn't effected by </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>the changes to the prime planes timeline. It was =
that, or=20
clamp down time change </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>altogether, and he's just the time to bring that up =
very=20
loudly the first time i actually </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>change the </FONT><FONT size=3D2>timeline =
</FONT><FONT size=3D2>in=20
a scenario. ) </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>The protoss scout: between names, =
after i=20
revised his c. It </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>was originalyl a combat monster, i =
toned it down=20
and added some minor mental </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>powers and =
such, while=20
maintaining the same cv, speed, and damage class. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>That happens </FONT><FONT =
size=3D2>if you come to=20
my game one week with a 4d6 hka, and the next with a </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>6d6 autofire penetrating hka, </FONT><FONT =
size=3D2>extra csl's,=20
and two more points of speed. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Just think about that for a mo. . penetrating =
autofire hka. .=20
. . . .</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Hmm, i think i ranted on my players =
a bit here.=20
. . oh well, thoughts?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
- ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01BE7F08.F0EECB80--
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 15:45:20 -0400
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: General request for opinions. erm, poll thingie if you will.
At 02:06 AM 4/5/99 +1000, Lockie wrote:
>He's often not done very much in a game, done nothing at all,
>repeatedly sought to avoid whatever situation the group was in, or done
>seemingly suicidal things, like using his dimensional travel power to
>travel to the ninth plane of hell- not for any reason, he just felt like
>it. Then there was the time his alien was being covered by three of the
>exterminators, and he tried attacking them, after provoking them twice-
>they never actually initiated hostilities on him, and he was meant to be
>a pacifist(according to the player). Whenever he fails, he cites the other
>players playing combat monsters, even though there's only one rules-rape
>in the game ever- him. His alien psycic had a mental speed of 12 fro teh
>first few games, not that he used it for anything.
Why did you let him have a construct that you don't like? Sounds like he
has real world problems.
>The result of this
>is he's at about 305 while the other two players at that time were at 310.
><snip>Thing is, when these
>two started, i started them each at 310 like the other two, partially
>becasue their character creation involved more non-cobat stuff that the
>existing c's, and partly becasue they weren't too sure about character
>creation- i called the shots more.
That was a mistake. Since you had only played 4-5 games at that point
without them, you should have had them start at 300. 305 at the max.
Never start incoming players at the same level as the higher point
characters. Especially since your system gives them a bonus for being new
to the game.
>Also, Now, in the game, the two
>new players did very well, indeed, both earning (and i mean earning) four
>xp, including the newbie bonus. This put them (you guessed it) AHEAD of
>not only the guy on 305 xp, but the other two- all three clocked up 3 xp-
>and that was me being a little understanding. The new guys were a nice
>change after some of the one-track-minds of the other players. Now, the
>guy formerly on 305 xp has a big problem with them startign ahead of him.
Now matter how much you've painted this guy a jerk, I agree with him. He
did earn his 305, they were given 310.
>I've tried to explain to him that his xp reflects his performance, and
>they should not be penalised by it, and so on, and on, and ON, but he is
>being really irrational.
It's a game. He thinks he is "in character". Since you disagree with him,
figure what is the "proper" way to play his character. He sounds like he
is playing a coward. That is the proper way for him to play the character.
> He also tends to have a very one-sided view-
>hence, according to him they get a free ride due to their 310 start, but
>his demand to be upped to 310 too is perfectly reasonable.
He is right here. They did get a free ride for starting at 310. You
probably should raise his total for fairness sake.
> Again according
>to him, the other players are powergamers and rules rapists for paying bulk
>points for a small number of mid-to-high powers, while he's not despite
>continually expecting a c with 12 spd, 30 def, and at least 1 body regen.
I still don't understand how this character has any attack power.
>It's amasing how many different sorts of c's happen to end up with those
>charicteristics. And so on. and ON.
12 spd is common? I guess I don't understand your play dynamics. I'm
never had a game with characters over 8 speed.
> Now, i've pretty much given up on
>talking sense to this guy, he seems uninterested so i've made it clear he
>shoulds choose wether to play or not. He's been threatening to quit well,
>for about three months, and i've thus far kept him in, but it's really
>wearing thin. He's highly inacive in the game and tends to avoid any
>situation whatsoever, and continually shows very bad jugement and an
>unwillngness to accept any challenge, but he claims he deserves the same
>xp as everyone else, or at elast the new players should be dragged down to
> his level instaed of the common one. I have no real problem saying no to
>that. They deserve to start where theay are, and his is the xp of a
>below-average performance, not a new character.
How much of this problem is between you and him in real life? As I said he
character sounds like a coward and a backstabber. Is he consistant with
the way he plays the character? If he is, that's good role-playing. Your
list of XP awards did not include "plays well with other players" (That I
remember).
I don't understand why you started the new players at the highest XP level.
Why didn't you average all three totals?
> Problem is, one of the
>other non-new guys has aparently got a problem with the face that his c is
> ONE xp behind the two new characters. They all had 310 at the start of
>the game, he got 3 more, they got 4. Aparently this is a major issue for
>him, or threatens to be. I'd like some feedback in case it's raised next
>time i meet with them. I want to know wether i've led these guys to the
>wrong conclusions.
I agree with the 310 guy as well. He had to work to get 310 and they just
breeze in and get 310 and they get a bonus point just for having their
first session. It is not fair. Life is not fair, too. But this is a game.
> So, i'm asking for general opinions. Is the xp too
>much? Too little? Is it fair to reward new players with this 1-off bonus?
>Is 1 xp a big deal? Is it fair to start them on 310 instead of 305? ect,
>ect, ect?
I believe I've covered this. I would like to know though, what is there
about the first session that gives you a 1-pt bonus? What is the logic
behind that?
Hope that helps,
Joe
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 15:52:21 -0400
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: HOUSE RULE: Super Speedy Skills
At 08:39 PM 4/3/99 EST, ErolB1@aol.com wrote:
>This way, a super-skilled starship engineer with Mechanics 21- has a chance
>to pull a "Scotty" and do a five hour job in only one hour by making a 11-
>roll. Speedsters can also buy a bunch of 5 or 10 pt levels and apply a limit
>"only to do things faster" (-1/2?), giving something resembling the proposed
>"super speedy skill levels"
That was essentially what I was proposing. Filksinger wanted 3/5/10 points
to do one skill, a group of three related, and all skill faster
(respectively). I was going with 2/3/5. (Basically a -1 limitation on
overall skill levels and then scaling downward from there.)
Joe
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 17:14:17 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: General request for opinions. erm, poll thingie if you will.
At 02:06 AM 4/5/99 +1000, you wrote:
So, i'm asking for general opinions. Is the xp too
>much? Too little? Is it fair to reward new players with this 1-off bonus?
>Is 1 xp a big deal? Is it fair to start them on 310 instead of 305? ect,
>ect, ect? Any responses would be welcome, i won't argue, though i may
>ask questions if it gets me closer to the way these guys think. I'd like
>to think there's a good gamer inside everyone if i can just get the spin
>right.
Well.
The guy who started at 305 is a lost cause. I mean, you can explain why he
only earned 5 while the others earned 10 'til you're blue in the face but
he's not going to see that he's doing anything wrong.
However, he has a point about the new guys getting a free ride. He's
justified in feeling that he should get 5 free points to bring him up to
the 310 they started at. The fair thing is that either everyone gets it or
no-one does.
The other players have a point, too. They _earned_ the 10 points over 300,
and it's annoying when someone gets for free what you had to earn. I've
worked for people faced with this problem several time: They agree that I
busted my hump and earned several raises, but minimum wage went up and new
people start at $.10 less than me snd that hardly seems fair.
If the new guys went heavy for non-combat stuff, try working package deals
for them. Even under 4th ed, it earns them 3 free points.
The one-off newbie bonus is not abusive, but maybe it should be only if the
guy _doesn't_ earn max XP for the session.
I think you're really facing two problems:
1) an abusive power-gamer who now feels (rightly) slighted because his
character has fewer points than the introductory level for the campaign.
2) your regular players who now fell slighted because, despite their
continuing an excellent level of play, the new guys are ahead of them
because of "freebie points". These guys didn't get just 1, they got 11,
and it seems they're experienced gamers and not really newbies.
My $0.02, YMMV
============================
Geoff Heald
============================
In search of the perfect .SIG file.
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #262
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Date: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 10:11 AM