Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 263
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Monday, April 05, 1999 10:15 AM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #263
champ-l-digest Monday, April 5 1999 Volume 01 : Number 263
In this issue:
Re: General request for opinions. erm, poll thingie if you will.
Re: General request for opinions. erm, poll thingie if you will.
Re: HOUSE RULE: Super Speedy Skills
Re: HOUSE RULE: Super Speedy Skills
Re: General request for opinions. erm, poll thingie if you will.
laser printer supplies advertisement
Re: General request for opinions. erm, poll thingie if you will.
Re: General request for opinions. erm, poll thingie if you will.
Re: laser printer supplies advertisement
Re: HOUSE RULE: Super Speedy Skills
Re: General request for opinions. erm, poll thingie if you will.
Re: General request for opinions. erm, poll thingie if you will.
Re: General request for opinions. erm, poll thingie if you will.
Re: Boomerang post?
Re: General request for opinions. erm, poll thingie if you will.
Re: superpatriots and other madmen
List?
Re: List?
Re: General request for opinions. erm, poll thingie if you will.
Re: General request for opinions. erm, poll thingie if you will.
opinions
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 17:17:11 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: General request for opinions. erm, poll thingie if you will.
At 03:45 PM 4/4/99 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>It's amasing how many different sorts of c's happen to end up with those
>>charicteristics. And so on. and ON.
>
>12 spd is common? I guess I don't understand your play dynamics. I'm
>never had a game with characters over 8 speed.
>
He means it is common _for_this_player_. No matter what type of character
he builds, it has these stats.
============================
Geoff Heald
============================
In search of the perfect .SIG file.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 18:38:26 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: General request for opinions. erm, poll thingie if you will.
At 02:06 AM 4/5/99 +1000, you wrote:
>So, i'm asking for general opinions. Is the xp too
>much? Too little? Is it fair to reward new players with this 1-off bonus?
>Is 1 xp a big deal? Is it fair to start them on 310 instead of 305? ect,
>ect, ect? Any responses would be welcome, i won't argue, though i may
>ask questions if it gets me closer to the way these guys think. I'd like
>to think there's a good gamer inside everyone if i can just get the spin
>right.
My brother, UnkaBill, offers this thought:
You view your campaign as an evolving thing. Several weeks ago, it was at
300 points, now it is at 310. One guy is lagging behind, and you see no
reason why he should hold the others back. Two new guys join, and you
start them at the campaign base level. No reason why the behind guy should
get a bonus just 'cause the new guys joined, and no reason to drag the
campaign down to his level.
He, however, thinks you're punishing him. He thinks you're forcing a raise
in the power level and leaving him behind just because you're unhappy with
him.
Lastly, (from me, Geoff Heald,) I've been a bit of a munchkin if not a
power gamer, and I see where the other guy's coming from (the one at 310).
The points I earn are my reward for good play. If I can get them for free,
I have no incentive to play well. Further, it feels like breach of
contract, since what you agreed to pay me with is worth less than I
thought. So, I have no obligation to hold up my end. I'll show up and do
little else, and every few sessions I'll get myself killed so I can have a
new character at the new, higher point level.
============================
Geoff Heald
============================
In search of the perfect .SIG file.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 11:09:27 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@actonline.com.au>
Subject: Re: HOUSE RULE: Super Speedy Skills
Filksinger wrote:
>
> From: Rick Holding <rholding@actonline.com.au>
>
> > You know, much of the arguments about this can be desolved by saying
> > that it takes 5 hours to fix the car with a speed of two (base human
> > norm). Marvin the Speedster has a speed of 8. He can do it in an hour
> > 15. Simple.
>
> Except that we are looking for a mechanic that allows Marvin the Speedster
> to do it in 2 minutes 57 seconds.
I didn't say it solved all of the arguments.
<TIC> Okay, try this for relevant tasks. A normal human can do a job
in x time. An extra pair of hands can reduce this by factor y. Divide
the time taken by the increase in speed of all relevant participants.
Throw in the situational modifiers caused by the Gods and add a good
swift kick.
Seriously, determine the time taken for a normal to do the task. Work
out how quickly the job COULD be done. (It takes a normal mechanic of
reasonable skill 5 hours to do the job required. Given two extra people
and rush conditions, it can be done in two hours - at a -2 for each
extra half hour.) Modify by the amount of increased speed involved and
that is your final answer. Anything beyond this is no longer in the
realms of skills but within the realm of a power.
I think the long and the short of it is that there IS no simple
mechanic using pure hero rules. No matter what people come up with,
there will always be problems. Work out what is reasonable for your
tastes and use it. Its not very constructive, I know, but sometimes
thats all thats left.
- --
Rick Holding
If only "common sense" was just a bit more common...
or if you prefer... You call this logic ?
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 20:54:53 EDT
From: ErolB1@aol.com
Subject: Re: HOUSE RULE: Super Speedy Skills
In a message dated 99-04-04 15:58:49 EDT, why@superlink.net writes:
> At 08:39 PM 4/3/99 EST, ErolB1@aol.com wrote:
> >This way, a super-skilled starship engineer with Mechanics 21- has a
chance
>
> >to pull a "Scotty" and do a five hour job in only one hour by making a
11-
> >roll. Speedsters can also buy a bunch of 5 or 10 pt levels and apply a
> limit
> >"only to do things faster" (-1/2?), giving something resembling the
> proposed
> >"super speedy skill levels"
>
> That was essentially what I was proposing. Filksinger wanted 3/5/10 points
> to do one skill, a group of three related, and all skill faster
> (respectively). I was going with 2/3/5. (Basically a -1 limitation on
> overall skill levels and then scaling downward from there.)
Except under what *I* was proposing, one would need *10* skill levels go down
one level on the time chart. With a -1/2 lim "only for speed" the cost for
going down one level on the time chart would be 67 pts for all skills, or 33
pts for a group of similar skills (e.g. all Int-based skills).
Erol K. Bayburt
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 18:06:18 -0700
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: General request for opinions. erm, poll thingie if you will.
geoff heald wrote:
> At 02:06 AM 4/5/99 +1000, you wrote:
>> So, i'm asking for general opinions. Is the xp too much? Too
>> little? Is it fair to reward new players with this 1-off bonus?
>> Is 1 xp a big deal? Is it fair to start them on 310 instead
>> of 305? ect, ect, ect? Any responses would be welcome, i
>> won't argue, though i may ask questions if it gets me closer to
>> the way these guys think. I'd like to think there's a good
>> gamer inside everyone if i can just get the spin right.
>
> Well. The guy who started at 305 is a lost cause.
From Lockie's rant it sounds like he might be a lost cause. At a
300-310 point spread, I would of just started the newbies off at
300. I don't consider 10 points to be that big of a deal.
The longest running campaigns I was in we had characters from
600-900 points. All around the same power level, but of course
the 900's were better. This mainly occurred due to some people
going to class and studying, getting a degree...
You could see if pushing everybody up to the same number of xp
solves the problem. From then, just give everybody the same number
of experience. Will this solve everything? I doubt it, but at
least you can be somewhat impartial.
- -Mark Lemming
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 17:42:09
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 11:54:14 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@actonline.com.au>
Subject: Re: General request for opinions. erm, poll thingie if you will.
Joe Mucchiello wrote:
> >Thing is, when these
> >two started, i started them each at 310 like the other two, partially
> >becasue their character creation involved more non-cobat stuff that the
> >existing c's, and partly becasue they weren't too sure about character
> >creation- i called the shots more.
>
> That was a mistake. Since you had only played 4-5 games at that point
> without them, you should have had them start at 300. 305 at the max.
> Never start incoming players at the same level as the higher point
> characters. Especially since your system gives them a bonus for being new
> to the game.
I tend to agree here. We have been playing a group ref campaign, on
and off, for over ten years now. Some of the characters have
accumilated 150 experience in that time. However, new members of the
group come in at the base 250 points. It gives quite a range in power
levels. However, attacks and defences are kept to a parity so that no
characters are overshadowed by the "revered leaders". And it works out
well.
- --
Rick Holding
If only "common sense" was just a bit more common...
or if you prefer... You call this logic ?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 09:26:13 +0800
From: "Colin aka Arkham aka the God King" <astroboy@iinet.net.au>
Subject: Re: General request for opinions. erm, poll thingie if you will.
IMO the starting points for new characters should be less than the existing
characters (after they have earned something) but not so far less that they
become ineffective. In this case I think I would have started them off at
300 however as a general rule I would give them a point total half way
between the capmpaign base and the point total of the lowest character
(which would have bee 302.5).
Anyway players who have a problem with minor differences in point totals
(and 5 points in 300 point campaign is pretty minor) are not being "good"
players. What you do about it depends of course. Ideally talk to them and
get them to see the error of their ways. In practice this is not always
possible. The key rule is "are they spooiling the enjoyment of other
players and/or yourself?". If so they it's time for them to change or
leave, IMO
Good luck, unfortunately there is no certain cure for "bad" players. Some
change over time, some don't.
Colin
********************************************************
Colin Clark
World Emperor in Waiting
http://www.iinet.net.au/~astroboy
********************************************************
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Lockie
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sent: Monday, April 05, 1999 12:06 AM
Subject: General request for opinions. erm, poll thingie if you will.
. . .
<honking big snip>
Hmm, i think i ranted on my players a bit here. . . oh well, thoughts?
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 18:30:21 -0700
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: laser printer supplies advertisement
Grrr. This one got bounced through the old mailing address from a
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>remailer@replay.com wrote some spam.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 19:16:20 -0700
From: "Jim Dickinson" <ethernut@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: HOUSE RULE: Super Speedy Skills
> > Except that we are looking for a mechanic that allows Marvin the
Speedster
> > to do it in 2 minutes 57 seconds.
Frankly, I wasn't really following this thread, but if the mechanic doesn't
want Marvin to mess with the car, then maybe Marvin should stick to crime
fighting, and let the mechanic do the job in his own sweet time...
Sorry. Couldn't resist.
- ----------
Jim Dickinson / The Game Knight http://welcome.to/gameknight
Check out the Circle of HEROs at http://welcome.to/thecoh
Find me in The FUDGE RPG Club! http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/fudge
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 17:07:23 +1000
From: "Lockie" <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: General request for opinions. erm, poll thingie if you will.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
>Why did you let him have a construct that you don't like? Sounds like he
>has real world problems.
>
I've been atempting to find a compromise with him over the 12 spd issue.
Usually i allow the players to get a power if it's important to them, and
it usually isn't a hassle. But it seems this guy can't just enjoy the game
no matter
what happens. And yes, he's not the happiest person irl, but i would feel
kinda
low chucking him out.
>
>Now matter how much you've painted this guy a jerk, I agree with him. He
>did earn his 305, they were given 310.
>
i dunno about painting. . but i'm trying to get an opinion on that point
independant of his
general behavoiur. Thanks for giving one.
>>I've tried to explain to him that his xp reflects his performance, and
>>they should not be penalised by it, and so on, and on, and ON, but he is
>>being really irrational.
>
>It's a game. He thinks he is "in character". Since you disagree with him,
>figure what is the "proper" way to play his character. He sounds like he
>is playing a coward. That is the proper way for him to play the character.
>
Unfortnatly, his cowardly 'character' occurs no matter what character he's
playing.
Wether he's a dragon, an alien, a time traveler, a vampire, and so on,
he's still coward-guy, with no attempt to represent this by psyc lims.
> Again according
>>to him, the other players are powergamers and rules rapists for paying
bulk
>>points for a small number of mid-to-high powers, while he's not despite
>>continually expecting a c with 12 spd, 30 def, and at least 1 body regen.
>
>I still don't understand how this character has any attack power.
>
He usually has a new attack power every time, usually in the 90 ap range.
Hence, dragon with huge ego blast. How as in points? he puts stuff in
multipowers, places limitations, ect, ect.
>>It's amasing how many different sorts of c's happen to end up with those
>>charicteristics. And so on. and ON.
>
>12 spd is common? I guess I don't understand your play dynamics. I'm
>never had a game with characters over 8 speed.
>
No, i mean here that he keeps coming to the table with these 12 spd guys.
Nobody else has ever tried for anything like a 12 speed guy,
although there have been some other high ap characters. But his stats,
or demands for stats, 12 spd, 30rpdred, i regen, ect have been near-constant
the whole campaign through, independant of character. As for the other c's,
only one has a spd over six, and he took an undervalued phys lim to
represent
his wired reflexes.
>How much of this problem is between you and him in real life? As I said he
>character sounds like a coward and a backstabber. Is he consistant with
>the way he plays the character? If he is, that's good role-playing. Your
>list of XP awards did not include "plays well with other players" (That I
>remember).
>
irl, i'm prolly the person who treats him best, out of our group.
He isn't playing a coward only, his play style is not an ic event, it
extends to
dialogue with npc's, efforts to get feedback on the game, ect, ect. He
withdraws
and min-maxes, and if he does not ge the victory on a platter, he runs for
it.
He has played coward several times, but this is somethign else. For
instance,
his current c has done some rather non-cowardly things, like charging a
bunch
of guys who had plasma cannons pointed at him. his previous c took a stroll
in the
ninth plane of hell. His cowardice is statistical, not character based,
imho.
>I don't understand why you started the new players at the highest XP level.
> Why didn't you average all three totals?
>
Feedback seems to suggest that this was a mistake. An average
would have been more plausable, but the player was very vocal about his
beliefs that they should start below him and i think i may have responded
to that in a contrary manner. It's hard not to after months of complaint,
which nobody else ever agrees with.
>I believe I've covered this. I would like to know though, what is there
>about the first session that gives you a 1-pt bonus? What is the logic
>behind that?
the idea is that they played well and needed a minimum of integration.
Often new players have problems, or need things explained a lot, or
want to change their c halfway through, and so on, but these guys
were very easy to get going and needed a minimum of introduction.
In otherwirds, when usualyl a new player takes some maintenence,
these guys actually reduced maintenence. Plus, everyone at the table
got that bonus at one time or another, starting from a 'first session'
bonus for the first game we played.
>Hope that helps,
> Joe
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 17:33:22 +1000
From: "Lockie" <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: General request for opinions. erm, poll thingie if you will.
- -----Original Message-----
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Monday, April 05, 1999 8:45 AM
Subject: Re: General request for opinions. erm, poll thingie if you will.
>
>My brother, UnkaBill, offers this thought:
>You view your campaign as an evolving thing. Several weeks ago, it was at
>300 points, now it is at 310. One guy is lagging behind, and you see no
>reason why he should hold the others back. Two new guys join, and you
>start them at the campaign base level. No reason why the behind guy should
>get a bonus just 'cause the new guys joined, and no reason to drag the
>campaign down to his level.
>
That;s the idea.
>He, however, thinks you're punishing him. He thinks you're forcing a raise
>in the power level and leaving him behind just because you're unhappy with
>him.
>
I don't know what he's thinking. I've tried explaining to him that 5 xp
ain't
that much, and that he's not going to be happy with the game either way
unless he changes other things(this i believe is his problem. He's not
having fun, but he won't get to grips with that)
>Lastly, (from me, Geoff Heald,) I've been a bit of a munchkin if not a
>power gamer, and I see where the other guy's coming from (the one at 310).
>The points I earn are my reward for good play. If I can get them for free,
>I have no incentive to play well. Further, it feels like breach of
>contract, since what you agreed to pay me with is worth less than I
>thought. So, I have no obligation to hold up my end. I'll show up and do
>little else, and every few sessions I'll get myself killed so I can have a
>new character at the new, higher point level.
>
Seems i spoke too soon about that. I was on the phone with the
other 313 point guy today (armor guy) and he didn't seem
to think 1 point was a big deal. But the OTHER 313 point
guy might have a problem now. As for dying, that's kinda
why this 305 guy is behind the game, because i wouldn't let
him keep all his xp every time he died. he's died seven times
or so. Now, i know what you guys are thinking, so here's a list
of some of what he did, hopefully a little more objective than
my last post:
*Multiform guy: in the villain part of the game,
he had a multifirm guy, one of which was a limited
giant monster form. His other forms were pretty good,
but when the other villains had a fight- he ran away.
And kepts running, and wa finally picked up by police.
Only when he was in custody and he realised that
his c could be charged with crimes due to some
video evidence did he turn into the monster. Unfortunatly
the heroes his 'teamates' were battling( a group of british power
armor guys known to one of the c's) were half a city away,
just enough for them to all do a really nasty ncv move through
on him. three out of five hit, he went down, after trashing
a lot of stuff. Oddly enough, the other pcs didn't want to
break him out of stronghold.
*psycic dragon: after another guy hurled a demonic avatar back into
a rapidly closing portal, the dragon chased after him. and
then the portal closed, leaving the dragon trapped in hell.
This was more of a attempted-funny death so i let him keep a lot of points,
note that was before the campaign reboot to 300 pts.
*demon guy: another villain, this one died in a breakout
from stronghold- yes, the orbital one. Their shuttle crash-landed
in columbia, but the demon had been such a back-stabbing
cowardly traitor that none of the pc's had any interest in
fishing him out after getting each other free. glug glug.
*Pyromancer guy: They had a huge fight in a
villa the asenos were staying at- i used the mansion map
out of the champions adventure the asenos are in.
The maine was hiding in the pool, montana was hidden
underground nearby. When montana saw one of the pc's
swinging the then dead spider monkey around the green house my his tail,
he flipped, and the maine followed suit. the two ae blasts
knocked down the roof, burying both that pc and this guys pc.
Since both the buried pc's had killed one of the asenos, they
didn't bother digging them out- just burnt the rubble down.
*time traveler guy: went into the ninth plane of hell
to try and banish another pc, simply for being a very
slight nuisance. Got rather upset that i thought going to the
lowest of hells was a bad thing, i gave him a chance to
redeem himself but all he could think to do was go
to heaven and ask them to take care of the daemon
rampaging through downtown sydney, failing that
just stay in ehaven and let the other pc's take care of it-
and they pulled some pretty impressive stunts to attempt that
with no prompting from me. Yes, this was a bunch of super
heroes apart from him of course. Eventually,
after an entire game where all he did was run away
despire numerous posible means of vanquishment
("your character sees ANOTHER holy water font!
"I just run") i let the beast have him.
And so on. The current c is an alien psycic and i'm really, really trying to
keep
him alive, despite him doing things like taking the exterminators as a
watched,
and attacking them- and claiming that them being a watched means they
wouldn't fight him.
>
>============================
>Geoff Heald
>============================
>In search of the perfect .SIG file.
>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 17:43:57 +1000
From: "Lockie" <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: General request for opinions. erm, poll thingie if you will.
Thanks for all the opinions and adivce so far from this. I think
the problem is that two wrongs have happened here, first me considering
10 xp to be an important enough gap to brige, then others agreeing with me
on that, only in the other direction. Geoff heald's brother had my pov
pretty much
down pat, i consider this player to be an exception, not the rule really,
and i do have kinda a problem with the other players having to put up with
the stuff he does, littleown being drawn below a benchmark becuse of it.
This might seem ahrd to him, but it's difficult not to draw a line
with a guy who regularly abuses the game system and then objects if i
alter his c. Most likely i will attempt to talk to him again about it with
this added insight, and see what happens.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 03 Apr 99 01:35:58
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Boomerang post?
On Tue, 30 Mar 1999 20:27:51 -0500 (EST), Jason Sullivan wrote:
>Did my boomerang post get through?
Nah, it did but it turned back before we could read it - you can't have
hit the Send key hard enough :}
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Apr 99 10:15:28
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: General request for opinions. erm, poll thingie if you will.
On Mon, 5 Apr 1999 02:06:39 +1000, Lockie wrote:
>Now, i've pretty much given up on talking sense to this guy, he seems uninterested so
>i've made it clear he shoulds choose wether to play or not. He's been threatening to quit well,
>for about three months, and i've thus far kept him in, but it's really wearing thin.
Let him go.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Apr 99 10:18:52
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: superpatriots and other madmen
On Wed, 31 Mar 1999 10:36:08 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>>Dredd isn't a conservative, he's a nazi.
I declare this thread Godwinated.
FWIW The Judge Dredd strip is SATIRE.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 08:28:32 -0500
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Subject: List?
Can someone please email me and tell me if the list is still going on. I
haven't gotten a message in two days!!!
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 09:46:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: arcus@webtv.net (chrisopher spoor)
Subject: Re: List?
we're on vacation [:8)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 09:52:18 -0400
From: Geoff Speare <geoff@igcn.com>
Subject: Re: General request for opinions. erm, poll thingie if you will.
>I've been atempting to find a compromise with him over the 12 spd issue.
>Usually i allow the players to get a power if it's important to them, and
>it usually isn't a hassle.
I always had to set an absolute upper limit on SPD in my games: the best
reason for this is that it keeps some players from getting grossly more
time/attention in combat than others. I would just tell all your players
that PCs are limited to a certain SPD and leave it at that. I would pick
the lowest limit you can: once your players have more points to spend on
other stuff, they will thank you. :)
>But it seems this guy can't just enjoy the game
>no matter what happens. And yes, he's not the happiest person irl, but i '
>would feel kinda
>low chucking him out.
I would not throw someone out for what you've been talking about, although
I might well have a talking to with him. What I do initially in cases like
this is to make sure I am being very strict (but very fair) with the player
in question.
At the same time, it seems clear from your post that you are harboring some
resentment toward the player, and that it is coloring your response to this
situation. You might want to consider your own actions and their motivations.
>Unfortnatly, his cowardly 'character' occurs no matter what character he's
>playing.
>Wether he's a dragon, an alien, a time traveler, a vampire, and so on,
>he's still coward-guy, with no attempt to represent this by psyc lims.
Some players are like this: they have to play the same character in every
game. I don't see anything wrong with playing psych lims that he didn't get
points for, but if he is contradicting the disads he did take, there's a
problem. You might want to try pointing out to him during the game when he
is doing something which you consider to be breaking character. Yes, that
disrupts the session, but the situation seems serious enough to warrant it.
>He usually has a new attack power every time, usually in the 90 ap range.
>Hence, dragon with huge ego blast. How as in points? he puts stuff in
>multipowers, places limitations, ect, ect.
I bet if you posted his character sheet you'd get a lot of comments. :)
>Feedback seems to suggest that this was a mistake. An average
>would have been more plausable, but the player was very vocal about his
>beliefs that they should start below him and i think i may have responded
>to that in a contrary manner. It's hard not to after months of complaint,
>which nobody else ever agrees with.
Well, to be honest, your game sounds a lot more point-thirsty than any I've
played in. I think you should sit down with your players and discuss a
policy for new players: starting them at 300 now is no big deal, but what
about when established PCs are at 400+? I would suggest starting new
characters at halfway between 300 and the average total of the existing PCs.
Geoff Speare
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 00:16:16 +1000
From: "Lockie" <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: General request for opinions. erm, poll thingie if you will.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Geoff Speare <geoff@igcn.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Monday, April 05, 1999 11:51 PM
Subject: Re: General request for opinions. erm, poll thingie if you will.
>
>I always had to set an absolute upper limit on SPD in my games: the best
>reason for this is that it keeps some players from getting grossly more
>time/attention in combat than others. I would just tell all your players
>that PCs are limited to a certain SPD and leave it at that. I would pick
>the lowest limit you can: once your players have more points to spend on
>other stuff, they will thank you. :)
>
i tend to set a speed six for most character concepts.
but this guy has a major thing about always trying to get speed 12,
or at least very high. As for attention, their speeds are usually bunched
pretty
consistantly.
>I would not throw someone out for what you've been talking about, although
>I might well have a talking to with him. What I do initially in cases like
>this is to make sure I am being very strict (but very fair) with the player
>in question.
>
Well, strict it has been. Unfortunatly strict has resulted in very little in
the way of
a reduction in his behaviour.
>At the same time, it seems clear from your post that you are harboring some
>resentment toward the player, and that it is coloring your response to this
>situation. You might want to consider your own actions and their
motivations.
>
Well, my motivation is that his incessant attempts at rules abuse and
whining,
compared to the almost complete lack of such from the other players, is
really wearing
me down. It's hard to be continually rational when the guy just keeps on and
on and on....
I explain everyhtig in great detail, but then i just end up saying the same
things
next time he makes a c.
>Some players are like this: they have to play the same character in every
>game. I don't see anything wrong with playing psych lims that he didn't get
>points for, but if he is contradicting the disads he did take, there's a
>problem. You might want to try pointing out to him during the game when he
>is doing something which you consider to be breaking character. Yes, that
>disrupts the session, but the situation seems serious enough to warrant it.
His cowardice is completly calculated, based on game mechanics. Even if a
really
scary thing is going on, but he thinks he won't get attacked, he'll just do
whatever.
For instance, his psycic alien found himself confronted by three of the
exterminators,
their plasma weapons aimed at him. They told him to freeze, so what does he
do?
From reading the book he knew their dex, and figured he'd go first in
segment 12,
so he attacked in an attempt to wipe them all out . . . of course they were
covering
him, and had held action, so one got a shot off. It seems odd for a cowardly
character to act like that.
>I bet if you posted his character sheet you'd get a lot of comments. :)
>
in greatly abreviated form, i did. . and i did. Anyone remember the
multipower vampire, or the 6d6hka/12 spd guy?
>Geoff Speare
>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 10:13:48 -0400
From: Brian Wawrow <bwawrow@fmco.com>
Subject: opinions
Here's how I handle this. New players start at the same point level =
that the
campaign started at and get double xp's until they're cought up. This
results in an initiation period where the new kids can't derail the =
game
before they get a feel for what's going on. Soon enough, everybody's at =
a
similar power level.
=A0
I also have an opinion about the infamous Gamer 305. Is he your best =
friend?
No? Ditch him. One moron with attention issues can trash an entire =
campaign.
It's up to the GM whether that happens.
=A0
Gads, here's yet another opinion... If I was playing in your 300ish pt.
game, an AF 6D6 HKA would be the least of your worries. If you don't =
want to
see ignorant powers, start on less points or limit active values.
=A0
That is all.
BRI
- -----Original Message-----
From: Lockie [mailto:jonesl@cqnet.com.au]
Sent: Sunday, April 04, 1999 12:07 PM
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: General request for opinions. erm, poll thingie if you will.=20
I'm currently gming champions for five people. I've been making =
jugement
Calls in what i consider a=20
solid way so far, but i think the time is approaching where two of the
players may challenge some of=20
my xp decisions- mostly because they are behind in xp right now. I'm =
not
looking for a horde of emails to=20
toss at them as 'proof' of my 'unilateral worldwide gm support', rather =
i'm
interested in how all you lot
would handle similar situations. Here's how stuff breaks down.=20
=A0
I started their latest batch at 300 pts, due to the changes in campaign
we've had. There were=20
to relativly stable runs before this with different characters in the =
same
world, during wich they=20
earnt roughly 50 xp each for their respective c's. So, i figured, start =
them
all at 300, slightly higher.=20
So far there's only been one problem- the same player i've posted about
before. He's often not
done very much in a game, done nothing at all, repeatedly sought to =
avoid
whatever situation=20
the group was in, or done seemingly suicidal things, like using his
dimensional travel power
to travel to the ninth plane of hell- not for any reason, he just felt =
like
it. Then there was the time=20
his alien was being covered by three of the exterminators, and he tried
attacking them,=20
after provoking them twice- they never actually initiated hostilities =
on
him, and he was meant=20
to be a pacifist(according to the player). Whenever he fails, he cites =
the
other players playing combat monsters,=20
even though there's only one rules-rape in the game ever- him. His =
alien
psycic had a mental speed
of 12 fro teh first few games, not that he used it for anything.=20
=A0
The result of this is he's at about 305 while the other two players at =
that
time were at 310. As for the others, one's a hka-er (a protoss scout =
from
the time of adun, i.e. modern day by our standards, his description of =
his
attacks is 'hack and slash, hack and slash') and the other has a REALLY
tough suit of battle armor- but little in the way of mental, power or =
other
defenses. He also gets chased a lot, since all the baddies want the
blueprints for his inertial dampers. They're tough characters, but they
paind their points for their powers, while the other guy is continually
looking to suck all the points he can out- ah well all know what i'm =
talking
about.=20
hardcore powergamer. The other two aren't perfect, but there's clearly =
an
order of magnitude issue here.=20
=A0
This last game two,=A0 new players joined, and i finally fixed the xp
standard. Simply, i give one xp for=20
a standard effort(turning up and playing, basically), one for =
exceptional
roleplaying, and one for=20
exceptional strategy(i.e, that's the point that winning or losing =
matters
for, but it takes challenges=20
into account). This might seem high, but it's reasonable for the =
challenges
they face, not to mention=20
the nasty way the plot keep twisting (eg). I also used the rule i =
always
had- namely a one point bonus=20
for a new players first game, if they worked well and weren't to much =
of a
hassle to get going-=20
understandable for a first time, but worth a reward if it's avoided.=20
=A0
Thing is, when these two started, i started them each at 310 like the =
other
two,=20
partially becasue their character creation involved more non-cobat =
stuff
that the existing c's, and=20
partly becasue they weren't too sure about character creation- i called =
the
shots more. Also,=20
i didn't see any reason to start them on 300, everyone was above that, =
they
should start from a baseline,=A0
i juged it unfair to let the sinlge other guys' low xp determine this
baseline.=A0=A0
=A0
Now, in the game, the two new players did very well, indeed, both =
earning
(and i mean earning)=20
four xp, including the newbie bonus. This put them (you guessed it) =
AHEAD of
not only the guy
on 305 xp, but the other two- all three clocked up 3 xp- and that was =
me
being a little understanding.=20
The new guys were a nice change after some of the one-track-minds of =
the
other players.=20
=A0
Now, the guy formerly on 305 xp has a big problem with them startign =
ahead
of him. I've tried to explain to him that his xp reflects
his performance, and they should not be penalised by it, and so on, and =
on,
and ON, but he is being really
irrational. He also tends to have a very one-sided view- hence, =
according to
him they get a free ride due to their 310 start,=20
but his demand to be upped to 310 too is perfectly reasonable. Again
according to him, the other players are powergamers
and rules rapists for paying bulk points for a small number of =
mid-to-high
powers, while he's not despite continually expecting a c with 12 spd, =
30
def, and at least 1 body regen. It's amasing how many different sorts =
of c's
happen to end up with those charicteristics.=20
And so on. and ON.=20
=A0
Now, i've pretty much given up on talking sense to this guy, he seems
uninterested so=20
i've made it clear he shoulds choose wether to play or not. He's been
threatening to quit well,=20
for about three months, and i've thus far kept him in, but it's really
wearing thin.=20
He's highly inacive in the game and tends to avoid any situation =
whatsoever,
and=20
continually shows very bad jugement and an=20
unwillngness to accept any challenge, but he claims he deserves the =
same xp
as everyone=20
else, or at elast the new players should be dragged down to his level
instaed of the common one.=20
I have no real problem saying no to that. They deserve to start where =
theay
are, and his is the=20
xp of a below-average performance, not a new character.=20
=A0
Problem is, one of the other non-new guys has aparently got a problem =
with
the face that his c is=20
ONE xp behind the two new characters. They all had 310 at the start of =
the
game, he=20
got 3 more, they got 4. Aparently this is a major issue for him, or
threatens to be. I'd like=20
some feedback in case it's raised next time i meet with them. I want to =
know
wether
i've led these guys to the wrong conclusions.=20
=A0
So, i'm asking for general opinions. Is the xp too much? Too little?=20
Is it fair to reward new players with this 1-off bonus? Is 1 xp a big =
deal?
Is it fair to start them on 310 instead of 305? ect, ect, ect?=20
Any responses would be welcome, i won't argue, though i may=20
ask questions if it gets me closer to the way these guys think.
I'd like to think there's a good gamer inside everyone if i can just=20
get the spin right.=20
=A0
For fun(and i've never done it before), here's a list of the c's:
=A0
Raven- air mage, one of the new players' c's, has a 60pt=20
vpp pool which he's used very well, plus some low-level=20
stats and skills. Came to the game with a good bg prepared
about a quartet of elementalists who aprentive for a mysterious=20
overmage.=20
=A0
Beta- cybernetic ninja, the other new player, sword multipower with=20
an ap blade a nnd phase blade and a deflector blade settings.=20
IC, he=A0 thinks he escaped from a weapons plant, but is really a =
plausibly
deniable beta-test of the product.=20
=A0
Blackjack- power armor, very tough, as in 40/40rpdred with 20/20
nonresistant
on top. He gets hunted a lot, and no he didn't get points for them.=20
in my game, big ap power=3Dtarget symbol for all sorts of people.=20
(used to be in=A0 the brit team the union jacks,=20
but became an outcast. . geddit? This is the one who might
have a problem with the 1 xp issue, i think i might have let=20
him run loose a little too much.)
=A0
ERm. . psycic alien guy- a little green man with psy powers, who keeps. =
.
uh. .=20
changing (as his player tinkers and swops points around, which i've =
allowed
him to=20
do a few times since this is the only c he's lasted past a single game =
in a
while.=20
Believe it or not, i don't have a kill-wish on this guy(i'm amazed i =
don't,
too)=20
he just keeps doing really, really really really REALLY stupid things. =
Like=20
taking a stroll in hell and trying to sell nukes to prehistoric =
aboriginies
despite
placing a 'watched: time police' on his tim travlers character sheet. =
Then
there
was the 'i'll just go back in time and fix whatever i do wrong' =
syndrome,=20
which i put a stop to when i ruled that daemon he'd enraged wasn't =
effected
by=20
the changes to the prime planes timeline. It was that, or clamp down =
time
change=20
altogether, and he's just the time to bring that up very loudly the =
first
time i actually=20
change the timeline in a scenario. )=20
=A0
The protoss scout: between names, after i revised his c. It=20
was originalyl a combat monster, i toned it down and added some minor =
mental
powers and such, while maintaining the same cv, speed, and damage =
class.=20
That happens if you come to my game one week with a 4d6 hka, and the =
next
with a=20
6d6 autofire penetrating hka, extra csl's, and two more points of =
speed.=20
Just think about that for a mo. . penetrating autofire hka. . . . . .
=A0
Hmm, i think i ranted on my players a bit here. . . oh well, thoughts?
=A0
=A0
=A0
=A0
=A0
=A0
------------------------------
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