Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 298
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 1999 1:43 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #298
champ-l-digest Wednesday, April 28 1999 Volume 01 : Number 298
In this issue:
Re: Reputation [was Re: CHAR: Darth Vader (rough)]
Re: CHAMPS: 2009
Re: The Acceptance of Powergaming (was re RE:Darth Vader)
Re: CHAMPS: PC rules vs. NPC rules
say INT ain't so [was Powergaming]
Re: The Acceptance of Powergaming (was re RE:Darth Vader)
Re: say INT ain't so [was Powergaming]
Re: say INT ain't so [was Powergaming]
Re: say INT ain't so [was Powergaming]
Intelligence & Such
Re: say INT ain't so [was Powergaming]
Repost
Re: CHAMPS: 2009
Re: CHAMPS: 2009
Re: say INT ain't so [was Powergaming]
Re: The Acceptance of Powergaming (was re RE:Darth Vader)
Re: say INT ain't so [was Powergaming]
Re: CHAMPS: 2009
Re: say INT ain't so [was Powergaming]
Re: CHAMPS: 2009
Re: The Acceptance of Powergaming (was re RE:Darth Vader)
Re: say INT ain't so [was Powergaming]
Re: Intelligence & Such
Re: say INT ain't so [was Powergaming]
Re: say INT ain't so [was Powergaming]
Re: say INT ain't so [was Powergaming]
RE: say INT ain't so [was Powergaming] - verbose!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:54:07 -0500
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavsky@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Reputation [was Re: CHAR: Darth Vader (rough)]
At 11:31 AM 4/28/99 EDT, AndMat3@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 4/28/99 11:24:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>bsvitavsky@mln.lib.ma.us writes:
>>
>> I really liked the Recognition and Reputation rolls in the first edition
>> Golden Age of Champions. I used them quite successfully in my longest
>> running Champions game. They helped define the public image of each hero,
>> and on occasion guided the heroes' behavior. It gave a nice traditional
>> superhero feel to the game, as the PC's frequently became involved in
>> public service projects to enhance their acceptance in the community.
>
>um... the 1st ED of Golden Age???? I have seen one; but I don't know where
>to find it. any chance you could send me a rough overview?
>
I don't have it on hand, but I can give you the basics from memory. When a
character does something in public, that character gets points in
Recognition and (sometimes, depending on the action) Reputation.
For the sake of example, I'll give some of the situations & points. Keep in
mind that these are for example only, not verbatim values from the Golden
Age charts:
Recognition:
Character does something which makes local news: +1 point.
Newsworth actions witnessed by a large crowd: +1 Point.
Character makes national news: +3 points
Reputation:
Character prevents property damage: +1 point.
Character saves human life: +2 points.
Character risks own life to help others: +2 points.
Character performs benevolent non-combat activity (charity, public service,
etc.): +2 points.
Character uses lethal force: -1 point.
Character endangers innoncent bystanders: -2 points.
And so on. Thus, a character's recognition tends to go up pretty steadily,
but Reputation can lag behind for less ethical heroes.
Another chart gives Recognition rolls (probably the model for the
Reputation disad) based on the Recognition value. It goes up quickly at
first, then curves off to a very slow increase at higher levels. I believe
GAoC also provided modifiers to the roll based on how far from one's
hometown a hero was.
Yet another chart interprets the meaning of a character's Reputation. This
must be done in relation to Recognition, as a Reputation of 5 means
something very different in a novice hero with Recognition 5 than it does
in an experienced vigilante with Recognition 100. A negative reputation
puts one in the villain category, of course.
I'll see if I can find my old GAoC tonight. I might even try my hand at
reworking the charts a little to make them more appropriate for 90's
heroes; the expectations should be a little different from those of Golden
Age & Silver Age heroes.
Among other things, it adds fun to the point at the end of the session when
the GM hands out experience. Maybe one hero gets extra experience for
tackling the nastiest villain, but another gets more reputation points for
getting the bystanders to safety. This soon gets to be a major factor in
how individual heroes operate.
- - Bill Svitavsky
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:00:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
Subject: Re: CHAMPS: 2009
On Wed, 28 Apr 1999, Geoff Speare wrote:
> >this is wrong. it's like having two sets of building rules for players a=
nd=20
> >non-players.
> I smell a good discussion. :)
=09I believe that NPCs should follow the same rules for character
creation as PCs, which would include Powers available, Perks,
Disadvantages, etc. UNLESS the rules are specifically geared towards the
heroes themselves (such as "No hero make take the Casual Killer Psych.
Lim.), or it is required for the genre (The heroes are X-Files agents, and
the villians are aliens). In such cases this limitation should be
ignored.
=09Base point values should remain consistant with the heroes', the
exception being Incompetents, Normals, Skilled Normals, and Mooks.
However, major villians may receive a villian bonus. In addition,
villians built along the same lines as heroes in the beggining of the game
should receive "villian experience" throughout the game, roughly
equivalent to the lowet total of points received by the heroes in the
group (which may or may not be balanced out with nPy=FB/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 09:03:01 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: The Acceptance of Powergaming (was re RE:Darth Vader)
>> Nope. Einsiein has a 10 INT. It's just that Einstien has Physics on a
>> 18- and takes *days* to work on a problem, just getting massive "Extra
>> Time" bonuses. And, I agree, the 20 INT is too high. Vader is not that
>> fast a thinker. Reed Richards is a 30+ INT becuase he can make descisions
>> (and figure out problems) virutally instantly).
>
>Einsteins Inventive Genius normally gets blopped into his intelligence, he
invented
>whole hog much of the support Math and the Physics without experimental
basis it is
>totally flabbergasting, Put the points where you want to but he should
come off as
>having a wierd mind. Based on what Ive heard the man had an estimated real
world iq
>of 180.
There is a basic misunderstanding of INT here. In Hero game terms INT does
not mean IQ, it means speed of thought, perception and memory, not sheer
brilliance. Someone who is a slow thinker but incredibly smart could be an
8 INT, and somone who thinks fast but is average INT could be 18. I agree
with the assessment above
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:11:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: arcus@webtv.net (chrisopher spoor)
Subject: Re: CHAMPS: PC rules vs. NPC rules
Well I agree that usually Players should have access to what the enemies
have, unless you are running a hunted campaign ( as in horror ) but this
comment was made to a new player who is trying to understand the effect
of ECs on a campaign. New GMs are usually advised not to allow anything
they are not familiar with, aren't they. Although personally the whole
2009 idea sounds like building a car to learn how the engine works, but
that's me :)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:27:45 -0400
From: Brian Wawrow <bwawrow@fmco.com>
Subject: say INT ain't so [was Powergaming]
I call 'bull$#it'!
<rant>
Einstein with an INT of 10? You guys can haggle over how fast Darth Vader is
all you want but this has gone too far.
To me, this is pretty simple. Smart guys have big INT's and stupid guys have
small INT's. It is possible for someone with INT5 to have the same
SS:Theoretical Physics as someone with INT20 but it costs them more points,
thus reflecting that they've had to work harder to overcome their dull mind.
Certainly, if anyone deserves to have a super human INT, it's Einstein.
Otherwise, how do you build Einstein and not have him end up being an
average, everyday physics prof with wonky hair? I suppose you could just
crank up his Inventor roll but I just don't buy it.
I refuse to accept that Mr. Funstick, Reed Richards is more intelligent than
the Father of Modern Physics. Anyone who thinks general relativity could be
invented by someone with an average intelligence has never dug into general
relativity.
</rant>
BRI
"...nobody ever called him Al..."
- "Quark, Strangeness and Charm" by Hawkwind
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:29:34 -0500
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@radiks.net>
Subject: Re: The Acceptance of Powergaming (was re RE:Darth Vader)
With this definition INT would be used to calculate SPD and it totally isnt... I
think
the definition doesnt match the actual usage in game... in game it represents
more ones
ability with mental skills... Including Math, Physics etc.
Christopher Taylor wrote:
> >> Nope. Einsiein has a 10 INT. It's just that Einstien has Physics on a
> >> 18- and takes *days* to work on a problem, just getting massive "Extra
> >> Time" bonuses. And, I agree, the 20 INT is too high. Vader is not that
> >> fast a thinker. Reed Richards is a 30+ INT becuase he can make descisions
> >> (and figure out problems) virutally instantly).
> >
> >Einsteins Inventive Genius normally gets blopped into his intelligence, he
> invented
> >whole hog much of the support Math and the Physics without experimental
> basis it is
> >totally flabbergasting, Put the points where you want to but he should
> come off as
> >having a wierd mind. Based on what Ive heard the man had an estimated real
> world iq
> >of 180.
>
> There is a basic misunderstanding of INT here. In Hero game terms INT does
> not mean IQ, it means speed of thought, perception and memory, not sheer
> brilliance. Someone who is a slow thinker but incredibly smart could be an
> 8 INT, and somone who thinks fast but is average INT could be 18. I agree
> with the assessment above
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
> Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:38:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: say INT ain't so [was Powergaming]
On Wed, 28 Apr 1999, Brian Wawrow wrote:
> I call 'bull$#it'!
I see. I suppose I shouldn't even bother defending my position with an
opening statement like that, but I'll try.
> <rant>
> Einstein with an INT of 10? You guys can haggle over how fast Darth Vader is
> all you want but this has gone too far.
>
> To me, this is pretty simple. Smart guys have big INT's and stupid guys have
> small INT's. It is possible for someone with INT5 to have the same
> SS:Theoretical Physics as someone with INT20 but it costs them more points,
> thus reflecting that they've had to work harder to overcome their dull mind.
Yes, IMO, an INT of 5 is 'dull'. But a dull mind and a smart mind aren't
on the same track. The question is about how fast you think, not how
smart you are. In Hero, a high INT indicates faster processing of data.
So, Einstein can have a superhuman IQ, but that doesn't mean he has to
have a superhigh INT score. The two are totally different.
> Certainly, if anyone deserves to have a super human INT, it's Einstein.
> Otherwise, how do you build Einstein and not have him end up being an
> average, everyday physics prof with wonky hair? I suppose you could just
> crank up his Inventor roll but I just don't buy it.
Becuase average, everyday physics profs don't have 17s, 18s and 19s in
thier Science Skills.
> I refuse to accept that Mr. Funstick, Reed Richards is more intelligent than
> the Father of Modern Physics. Anyone who thinks general relativity could be
> invented by someone with an average intelligence has never dug into general
> relativity.
I never said that Reed as *more* intelligent. I *said* that he has a 30
INT because of his ability to *instantly* comprehend the situation. Once
again, an INT of 10 does not (and should not) indicate intelligence, it
indicates speed of comprehension.
This is the like the fact that in D&D, Charisma was used to indicate (in
popular conception) physical appearence, despite the fact that it was
pointed out that Hitler, who was of average appearence, had a Charisma of
18 (or better).
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"I registered my copy of the Bible. I'm hoping to get an upgrade
in the mail."
Darren Hansen
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:41:22 -0500
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@radiks.net>
Subject: Re: say INT ain't so [was Powergaming]
I agree and the Hero game system seems to define INT one way (mental speed
concept), but implements it entirely differently IMHO so there is room for
plenty of argument about how it corresponds to real world people.
Unfortunately Reedy boy does do stunts analogous to Einsteins but in zero time
improvised and on the fly so to speak.
Brian Wawrow wrote:
> I call 'bull$#it'!
>
> <rant>
> Einstein with an INT of 10? You guys can haggle over how fast Darth Vader is
> all you want but this has gone too far.
>
> To me, this is pretty simple. Smart guys have big INT's and stupid guys have
> small INT's. It is possible for someone with INT5 to have the same
> SS:Theoretical Physics as someone with INT20 but it costs them more points,
> thus reflecting that they've had to work harder to overcome their dull mind.
>
> Certainly, if anyone deserves to have a super human INT, it's Einstein.
> Otherwise, how do you build Einstein and not have him end up being an
> average, everyday physics prof with wonky hair? I suppose you could just
> crank up his Inventor roll but I just don't buy it.
>
> I refuse to accept that Mr. Funstick, Reed Richards is more intelligent than
> the Father of Modern Physics. Anyone who thinks general relativity could be
> invented by someone with an average intelligence has never dug into general
> relativity.
>
> </rant>
>
> BRI
> "...nobody ever called him Al..."
> - "Quark, Strangeness and Charm" by Hawkwind
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:47:18 -0500
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@radiks.net>
Subject: Re: say INT ain't so [was Powergaming]
Show me the game mechanic that has a high INT character able to think faster?
Coming to decisions quicker? or perform a complex analysis in a shorter time base?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 09:52:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ben Brown <benbrown@primenet.com>
Subject: Intelligence & Such
On Wed, 28 Apr 1999, Brian Wawrow wrote:
> Einstein with an INT of 10? You guys can haggle over how fast Darth Vader is
> all you want but this has gone too far.
>
> To me, this is pretty simple. Smart guys have big INT's and stupid guys have
> small INT's. It is possible for someone with INT5 to have the same
> SS:Theoretical Physics as someone with INT20 but it costs them more points,
> thus reflecting that they've had to work harder to overcome their dull mind.
>
Here, of course, we get into the near-impossibility of modeling intelligence
with a single stat. Not that multiple stats does anything but muddle the
issue further.
The real thing to keep in mind is that INT isn't necessarily one thing.
Neither is "Intelligence" as considered in the real world.
INT includes specifically speed of thought and perception.
I happen to know from personal experience that these things do not
necessarily go hand in hand. I'm a decently fast thinker (on topics
I know at least a little about) but as far as me noticing things (in the
PER roll sense) I'm the amazing Oblivious Boy.
When people talk about intelligence, they also tend to include the
ability to learn, the ability to retain knowledge, the ability to
understand complex things, and a boatload of other stuff.
And we're not even getting into one of my favorite gaming topics:
can one really play a character that's more intelligent than one's self?
Anyway, intelligence is far too complicated to be modeled with one
simple stat. I suspect that strength is, too, but I'm too sedentary
to really have any clear idea of where the divisions might be.
- -Ben
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:53:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: say INT ain't so [was Powergaming]
On Wed, 28 Apr 1999, Lance Dyas wrote:
> Show me the game mechanic that has a high INT character able to think faster?
> Coming to decisions quicker? or perform a complex analysis in a shorter
> time base?
Yes to the latter. Consider that the higher your INT, the higher your
Perception. Also, if you are allowed to buy your KS and SC skills based
off of your INT, they go way up for not a lot of points, and are less
affected by modifers for using less time.
There is no specific game mechanic, but that's the idea behind INT, as I
recall from the rules (or, as I have always understood it).
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"I registered my copy of the Bible. I'm hoping to get an upgrade
in the mail."
Darren Hansen
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:56:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
Subject: Repost
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Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:52:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
Subject: Re: CHAMPS: 2009 (repost)
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On Wed, 28 Apr 1999, Geoff Speare wrote:
> >this is wrong. it's like having two sets of building rules for players and
> >non-players.
> I smell a good discussion. :)
I believe that NPCs should follow the same rules for character
creation as PCs, which would include Powers available, Perks,
Disadvantages, etc. UNLESS the rules are specifically geared towards the
heroes themselves (such as "No hero make take the Casual Killer Psych.
Lim.), or it is required for the genre (The heroes are X-Files agents, and
the villians are aliens). In such cases this limitation should be
ignored.
Base point values should remain consistant with the heroes', the
exception being Incompetents, Normals, Skilled Normals, and Mooks.
However, major villians may receive a villian bonus. In addition,
villians built along the same lines as heroes in the beggining of the game
should receive "villian experience" throughout the game, roughly
equivalent to the lowet total of points received by the heroes in the
group (which may or may not be balanced out with new Disadvantages, like
Hunteds, or increased Reputation).
Essentially, villians are allowed to stretch the character
creation rules to the logical extremes so they can be worthy opponents for
the heroes. Villians are also assumed to get "Special Permission" from
the GM for any questionable (STOP or Magnifying Glass) powers or
constructs.
- --Boundary_(ID_caG2duOxu9KMg+xWsx1C8g)--
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:57:40 -0500
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavsky@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: CHAMPS: 2009
At 11:49 AM 4/28/99 EDT, AndMat3@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 4/28/99 11:41:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jeffj@io.com
>writes:
>
>> And why, exactly, is that wrong?
>>
>> First of all, you /already/ have two sets of building rules for PCs and
>> NPCs. The PCs get a set number of points to create their character, but
>> the GM does not need to abide by that restriction when making the NPCs.
>> (If he did, then single villains like Mechanon and Dr. Destroyer would be
>> impossible to create, and everyone would always fight teams. Oh, and also
>> all of the NPCs would be at the PCs power level, including Joe the
>> security guard and Rita Mae the plumber's apprentice.)
>
>ok... allow me to re-state this. [note: this is an opinion. not a fact.]
>i don't mind that players and non-players have different point values.
>i do mind that they don't have access to the same power list.
>
>either something is ok... or it is not. decide and then make the list
>available to all.
>
>i'm not looking for people to agree with me. most GM's do not; but
>that's ok. this is an opinion and therefore, open to debate. when you
>disallow a power for a PC and then allow it for an NPC the player (or
>maybe its just me) sees that and say "ah! the GM is cheating."
>
Suppose you're running a horror campaign where the heroes are human
parapsychologists - the NPC's are likely to have all sorts of abilities the
heroes don't have (Desolidification, EGO Powers, whatever) or even be built
with the Spirit Rules, while the PC's can't do any of this.
Or even more commonly, supppose you're running a Fantasy Hero campaign with
humans (and maybe some demi-humans.) Once again, there will be lots of
stuff the PC's can't do. The giant monsters will have growth, the dragons
will have energy killing attacks, and so forth. Even if there are PC mages,
the magic system might allow only certain effects. And what if the GM wants
a game with no PC mages - a perfectly valid way to run a fantasy game.
Suppose you're running a Star Wars game, and all the PC's are expected to
be good guys. There may be abilities which stem from the Dark Side of the
Force (like NND Killing Attacks) which the villains use, but the heroes can't.
Yet another example: a science fiction campaign set in the universe of
Babylon 5. You're probably not going to allow PC's to be Vorlons or
Shadows, but clearly those aliens can do a lot of things the younger races
can't.
The whole idea that a GM might be cheating by making NPC's who can do
things the PC's can't assumes that an RPG is some sort of competition
between the GM & the players. Frankly, if this were so, any competent GM
could destroy the PC's instantaneously, since the GM has the entire
universe at his or her command. It's much more productive to look at the
GM's job as providing interesting situations for the PC's, and opponenents
(or allies) with uncanny abilities help make some situations more interesting.
- - Bill Svitavsky
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 13:08:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: CHAMPS: 2009
On Wed, 28 Apr 1999, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
> The whole idea that a GM might be cheating by making NPC's who can do
> things the PC's can't assumes that an RPG is some sort of competition
> between the GM & the players. Frankly, if this were so, any competent GM
> could destroy the PC's instantaneously, since the GM has the entire
> universe at his or her command. It's much more productive to look at the
> GM's job as providing interesting situations for the PC's, and opponenents
> (or allies) with uncanny abilities help make some situations more interesting.
A prefect example of the gap between PCs and NPCs some from my Silent
Mobius Zeta game. The PCs are police officers who protect LA from
incursions of supernatural monsters (think cyberpunk Ghsotbusters).
Anyway, they are 250 point characters (with about 100 points of free
stuff). They can be magic users, espers, metnalsit, martial artists,
cyborgs, etc. They can do *a lot*. But...
Thier enemy is often bigger than they are, and can go Desolid, fly,
teleport, blow apart buildings, eat people, rip a target to shreads,
change reality and much with the fabric of space/time.
These are things the PCs really can't do, and shouldn't be alowed to do.
The the NPC enemy can, because they *need* to be written as horrific
creatures that can easily devestate an aera if allowed to run unchecked.
Thus, the PCs have to co-operate, work together and defeat a common foes
as a team.
If I tossed 250 point villians at the PCs, all sense of horror and tension
would be lost, These guys just wouldn't be that tough.
And as it is, I often don't fully write up the bad guys, I just make notes
about useful numbers.
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"I registered my copy of the Bible. I'm hoping to get an upgrade
in the mail."
Darren Hansen
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:11:32 -0500
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@radiks.net>
Subject: Re: say INT ain't so [was Powergaming]
You really are reaching heheheh
Michael Surbrook wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Apr 1999, Lance Dyas wrote:
>
> > Show me the game mechanic that has a high INT character able to think faster?
> > Coming to decisions quicker? or perform a complex analysis in a shorter
> > time base?
>
> Yes to the latter. Consider that the higher your INT, the higher your
> Perception. Also, if you are allowed to buy your KS and SC skills based
> off of your INT, they go way up for not a lot of points, and are less
> affected by modifers for using less time.
I dont buy it because any source of higher skill levels could achieve the same
results...
>
>
> There is no specific game mechanic, but that's the idea behind INT, as I
> recall from the rules (or, as I have always understood it).
The rules say one thing and do another and that is why pragmatic folk... basically
equate what they understand as real world intelligence with INT... because aside
from
the fact that some otherwise Intelligent folk have poor external perception
(usually due to excessive internal orientation of their perception) That is exactly
how the game uses the INT.
Someone with a real world iq of 100 has to spend a shit load of time and effort to
get even a basic handle on Relativistic Physics. This corresponds exactly to the
game mechanic which bases your starting level with a mental skill on INT.
Now lets redefine SPD as being based on the average of INT and DEX boy would you
hear bitching about that idea, why? Take a guess.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:14:23 -0700
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: The Acceptance of Powergaming (was re RE:Darth Vader)
> With that said, ive got a few other things about the stats too. First, he
is
> largly human, and would have the Normal human Maxima. Thats another thing
> HERO gamers seem to just overlook. So, none of his stats would be over 20
> naturaly.
This is assuming, of course, that you consider Star Wars a heroic level game
or assume that Vader is not superhuman in a superhuman game. I see no reason
to assume either of these, though I would have given him only a 25 Strength.
I'd probably run it as Heroic as well, at least at first, but that doesn't
mean it has to be.
> 30 STR Darth isnt this strong naturally. Its the robotic
> suit. Hed have like 15
The robotic suit that he is never without until his death. The difference
between this, in game terms, and just giving him a 30 Strength is, at best,
nominal.
> 23 CON Way way way way way way to high. Hes an invilid.
> Agian, the suit.
Again, no difference.
> 20 INT Also very good, though this would make him as
> smart as Einstein
Humans have Characteristic Maxima. Older humans have higher maxima for
mental stats. Why saddle Einstein with a mere 20 Intelligence?
20 is not supposed to be an absolute max in any event, or at least doesn't
have to be (I understand that some play it that way, perhaps even the
majority).
> 30 PRE Ehhhh. Id give him 18 or if I had to 20. Than add a
> bonus for the suit.
Again, no difference.
> 6 COM Good for out of suit. Ill get back to this though.
Sounds pretty reasonable in the suit, too.
> Darth Vader cant even RUN. He can walk at a barely increased speed, but
lacks
> the motor skills or interface with his cybernetic required to mave
rapidly.
> He cant keep the Pace in a fight versus Luke ( who is a highly
> unskilled,untrained teenager ) so he has to revert to using TK.
Highly unskilled, untrained teenager? My understanding is that he was
supposed to have been in that swamp, training for several months, in the
second film. With Yoda and all that. Where does unskilled come from? And he
doesn't fight Vader until after that training. That hardly qualifies Vader
to be derided so.
JAJ, GP
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 13:20:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: say INT ain't so [was Powergaming]
On Wed, 28 Apr 1999, Lance Dyas wrote:
> You really are reaching heheheh
I'm reaching? If that is so, then there a number of others on this list
that are 'reaching' as well.
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"I registered my copy of the Bible. I'm hoping to get an upgrade
in the mail."
Darren Hansen
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:18:32 -0500
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@radiks.net>
Subject: Re: CHAMPS: 2009
The fundamental natures of PCs and Villains can be totally divergent (such as
extradimensional demons attacking the world) and if this is the case then sure go
ahead and allow a different set of powers etc. but if the villains an players are
essentially of the same clay why should this be done? The answer is to give
challenge to the players, force them to cooperate and have something to surprise
them with. Why not!
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 13:25:26 -0400
From: David_A._Fair@fc.mcps.k12.md.us (David A. Fair)
Subject: Re: say INT ain't so [was Powergaming]
lancelot@radiks.net writes:
>Now lets redefine SPD as being based on the average of INT and DEX boy
>would you
>hear bitching about that idea, why? Take a guess.
I use the formula SPD=(DEX+INT)/10 and have had no complaints from the
players...
Thanks,
Dave
- ---------------------------------------------------------
David A. Fair
Montgomery County Public Schools
Office of Global Access Technology
Elementary User Support Specialist
David_Fair@fc.mcps.k12.md.us
- ---------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 13:26:49 -0400
From: Geoff Speare <geoff@igcn.com>
Subject: Re: CHAMPS: 2009
>but if the villains an
>players are
>essentially of the same clay why should this be done? The answer is to give
>challenge to the players, force them to cooperate and have something to
>surprise
>them with. Why not!
Exactly. A classic example is the villain who has all of his powers bought
through a Focus. This is a bad idea for PCs for two reasons: 1) the
character is more powerful than other PCs most of the time; 2) losing the
focus makes the character useless, giving the player nothing to do.
Villains don't have to worry about either of these; in fact, a villain who
starts off more powerful but collapses quickly once you discover his weak
point is very dramatic.
Geoff Speare
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 13:29:29 -0400
From: E David Miller <golem@fred.net>
Subject: Re: The Acceptance of Powergaming (was re RE:Darth Vader)
I have to admit, I usually try to stay out of the middle of such
volatile/no-foundation discussions here on the list, due to sheer volume, but on
this one, I do have something to say.
I agree with Lance, that according to the text, Intelligence should have some
bearing on Speed. And I agree with the others who have mentioned that
Intelligence is defined, in the Champions' rulebooks, as being the _speed_ of
thought, not its actual IQ level (though I think low-IQ people would be far more
likely to have low INT, and high IQ people would be more likely to have high
INT).
My solution, as implemented in my own campaign world, was to actually generate a
new statistic for all characters and constructs within the campaign world:
Mental Speed. mSPD (as I abreviate it) is generated as a figured
characteristic, at 1+INT/10. It costs 5cp to buy a point of mSPD (half the
value of pSPD, the normal, champs-standard SPD). Mental Speed is the number of
thought-based actions that a character can take in a single turn. In general,
someone's mSPD is not very different than their pSPD; usually a single point
higher, sometimes (dumb fellas, physical-only reflex-based martial artists, etc)
a single point lower. But, the human maximum for mSPD is 6; this is so that it
is within standard, normal humans, to out-think their own physical ability to
react. mSPD and INT, in my campaign, govern Mental combat, in the same way that
pSPD and DEX cover physical combat.
I just thought this statement was germaine to the conversation, and might spark
the same kinds of ideas, with perhaps better implementation, in others reading
these discussions.
David Miller
Technical Support Specialist
ZyLAB International, Inc.
for info on my campaign, try:
http://www.fred.net/golem/masktown.html
Lance Dyas wrote:
>
> With this definition INT would be used to calculate SPD and it totally isnt... I think
> the definition doesnt match the actual usage in game... in game it represents more ones
> ability with mental skills... Including Math, Physics etc.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 13:29:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: say INT ain't so [was Powergaming]
On Wed, 28 Apr 1999, David A. Fair wrote:
> I use the formula SPD=(DEX+INT)/10 and have had no complaints from the
> players...
That sounds like a workable idea. I don't know if I'll use it, but I'll
certainly make a note of it.
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"I registered my copy of the Bible. I'm hoping to get an upgrade
in the mail."
Darren Hansen
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:29:23 -0500
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@radiks.net>
Subject: Re: Intelligence & Such
> Anyway, intelligence is far too complicated to be modeled with one
> simple stat.
Mathlematical, Verbal, Mechanical
just to name a few varieties of intelligence one might start with
How about perception it could be divided rather nicely :
Concentration (internally oriented perception)
Alertness (externally oriented perception)
> I suspect that strength is, too, but I'm too sedentary
> to really have any clear idea of where the divisions might be.
>
Power vs Stamina based Strength (hinged around fast versus efficiently contracting
muscle cells)
Lower Body vs Upper Body (classic developmentmental distinction no too realistic
but a start)
>
> -Ben
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:34:33 -0700
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: say INT ain't so [was Powergaming]
> Show me the game mechanic that has a high INT character able to think
faster?
> Coming to decisions quicker? or perform a complex analysis in a shorter
time base?
Easy one: you can get a bonus for taking time on a project. For a complex
task, most people will need that bonus. For someone with a very high skill
they will not. Therefore, someone with a high roll CAN represent someone who
can analyze it faster. (or just guesses lucky, or has seen this specific
problem or one very like it before, or... Special Effect is a wonderful
thing).
Intelligence does not HAVE to indicate faster thinking, but it certainly CAN
indicate that.
JAJ, GP
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:38:24 -0500
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@radiks.net>
Subject: Re: say INT ain't so [was Powergaming]
This does nicely make the HERO mechanics fit the verbage and would support
Michaels otherwize
ludicrous idea that Einsteins INT could easily have been 10.
Michael Surbrook wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Apr 1999, David A. Fair wrote:
>
> > I use the formula SPD=(DEX+INT)/10 and have had no complaints from the
> > players...
>
> That sounds like a workable idea. I don't know if I'll use it, but I'll
> certainly make a note of it.
>
> --
> Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
>
> "I registered my copy of the Bible. I'm hoping to get an upgrade
> in the mail."
> Darren Hansen
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 13:43:13 -0400
From: Geoff Speare <geoff@igcn.com>
Subject: Re: say INT ain't so [was Powergaming]
Want to play the methodical, yet slow-thinking scientist who doesn't have
PER worth a darn?
Buy your INT with Extra Time. :)
Geoff Speare
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 13:42:32 -0400
From: Brian Wawrow <bwawrow@fmco.com>
Subject: RE: say INT ain't so [was Powergaming] - verbose!
<snip>
] > <rant>
] > Einstein with an INT of 10? You guys can haggle over how
] fast Darth Vader is
] > all you want but this has gone too far.
] >
] > To me, this is pretty simple. Smart guys have big INT's and
] stupid guys have
] > small INT's. It is possible for someone with INT5 to have the same
] > SS:Theoretical Physics as someone with INT20 but it costs
] them more points,
] > thus reflecting that they've had to work harder to overcome
] their dull mind.
]
] Yes, IMO, an INT of 5 is 'dull'. But a dull mind and a smart
] mind aren't
] on the same track. The question is about how fast you think, not how
] smart you are. In Hero, a high INT indicates faster
] processing of data.
] So, Einstein can have a superhuman IQ, but that doesn't mean he has to
] have a superhigh INT score. The two are totally different.
So, if we agree that some people are smarter than others, how do we reflect
that. To my mind, all else being equal, someone who's very clever has a
greater probability of understanding a problem than someone who's not. Of
course there are variables, like time to think about things, previous
experience and training, etc. So, let's consider a situation where Bruce
Banner [I'm not a FF fan]is looking at a problem at the same time as, say,
Juggernaut and the GM decides that either one can figure out what's going on
with a successful INT roll. Obviously, Banner has a higher INT than the dim
witted Juggernaut [at least I think so] and has a greater chance of success.
Now, Juggernaut might figure it out just as quickly but that's not so
likely.
The question of time in solving the problem is just a modifier. It's the
same as having a complementary skill or extra information. Characters with a
high INT are more likely to figure things out in a short time because they
are smarter.
]
] > Certainly, if anyone deserves to have a super human INT,
] it's Einstein.
] > Otherwise, how do you build Einstein and not have him end
] up being an
] > average, everyday physics prof with wonky hair? I suppose
] you could just
] > crank up his Inventor roll but I just don't buy it.
]
] Because average, everyday physics profs don't have 17s, 18s and 19s in
] thier Science Skills.
There's a difference between knowing vast amounts about an existing body of
knowledge and being able to push the boundaries of that knowledge miles into
undiscovered country. It's the difference between knowing a lot of poems and
being a really good poet. It's about creativity and insight, not training.
]
] > I refuse to accept that Mr. Funstick, Reed Richards is more
] intelligent than
] > the Father of Modern Physics. Anyone who thinks general
] relativity could be
] > invented by someone with an average intelligence has never
] dug into general
] > relativity.
]
] I never said that Reed as *more* intelligent. I *said* that
] he has a 30
] INT because of his ability to *instantly* comprehend the
] situation. Once
] again, an INT of 10 does not (and should not) indicate
] intelligence, it
] indicates speed of comprehension.
I see what you're saying here but I think you're reasoning is backwards.
Instead of seeing INT as a measure of only the speed of mental processing, I
see INT as a measure of raw intelligence. There are several things that come
with a high INT, quick thinking being one of them. Creativity, insight and
retention are also characteristics of a high INT but do not, in themselves,
define INT.
]
] This is the like the fact that in D&D, Charisma was used to
] indicate (in
] popular conception) physical appearance, despite the fact that it was
] pointed out that Hitler, who was of average appearance, had a
] Charisma of
] 18 (or better).
Well, it's a good thing we have PRE then. I wouldn't want to have only
beautiful people good at oratory. I'm assuming that PRE is a measure of how
much your presence impresses people, here.
BRI
"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds."
- -Albert Einstein
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #298
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Date: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 10:15 AM