Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 300
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 1999 11:42 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #300
champ-l-digest Wednesday, April 28 1999 Volume 01 : Number 300
In this issue:
Re: Intelligence & Such
Re: say INT ain't so
Re: The Acceptance of Powergaming (was re RE:Darth Vader)
Re: say INT ain't so
Re: say INT ain't so [was Powergaming]
Re: Fwd: say INT ain't so [was Powergaming]
Re: say INT ain't so
Re: say INT ain't so
Re: say INT ain't so
Re: Revamping Secondary Characteristics
Re: Re: CHAMPS: 2009
Re: say INT ain't so
Re: Revamping Secondary Characteristics
Re: Re: CHAMPS: 2009
Re: say INT ain't so
Re: say INT ain't so
Einstein & INT
Re: Re: CHAMPS: 2009
Re: Einstein & INT
Re: say INT ain't so
Re: say INT ain't so [was Powergaming]
Re: The Acceptance of Powergaming (was re RE:Darth Vader)
Re: say INT ain't so [was Powergaming]
Re: Darth Vader
Re: say INT ain't so [was Powergaming]
Re: CHAR: Darth Vader (rough)
Re: Re: CHAMPS: 2009
Re: Einstein & INT
Re: Einstein & INT
Re: say INT ain't so
Re: say INT ain't so
Re: Revamping Secondary Characteristics
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 17:24:01 -0400
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Intelligence & Such
At 04:07 PM 4/28/99 -0500, Lance Dyas wrote:
>
>
>Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>
>> At 12:29 PM 4/28/99 -0500, Lance Dyas wrote:
>> >> Anyway, intelligence is far too complicated to be modeled with one
>> >> simple stat.
>> >
>> >Mathlematical, Verbal, Mechanical
>> >just to name a few varieties of intelligence one might start with
>> >
>>
>> The most popular current model of multiple intelligences lists (as I
>> recall) Mathematical, Verbal, Mechanical, Musical, Spatial, Interpersonal,
>> and Intrapersonal.
>
>I beleive Dexterity encorporates aspects of Spatial Intelligence, Clasic
IQ tests
>probablly
>only measure the first two and a little of the third ( and do so with
questionable
>accuracy)
>
Good point. I just double checked myself, though, and discovered the
multiple intelligences I was thinking of, labelled by Howard Gardner, lump
mechanical in as part of Spatial Intelligence, while the missing one is
Bodily-Kinesthetic Intelligence. Still, I'd say DEX is part of both Spatial
and Bodily-Kinesthetic Intelligence. I found a pretty good Web page on the
subject:
http://www.tier.net/schools/stw/seven.htm
- - Bill Svitavsky
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 14:32:08 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: say INT ain't so
>Einstein with an INT of 10? You guys can haggle over how fast Darth Vader is
>all you want but this has gone too far.
>
>To me, this is pretty simple. Smart guys have big INT's and stupid guys have
>small INT's. It is possible for someone with INT5 to have the same
>SS:Theoretical Physics as someone with INT20 but it costs them more points,
>thus reflecting that they've had to work harder to overcome their dull mind.
>
>Certainly, if anyone deserves to have a super human INT, it's Einstein.
>Otherwise, how do you build Einstein and not have him end up being an
>average, everyday physics prof with wonky hair? I suppose you could just
>crank up his Inventor roll but I just don't buy it.
>
>I refuse to accept that Mr. Funstick, Reed Richards is more intelligent than
>the Father of Modern Physics. Anyone who thinks general relativity could be
>invented by someone with an average intelligence has never dug into general
>relativity.
Again, you are mistaking INT stat for intelligence as IQ or raw
intellectual ability. In Hero, INT measures speed of thought, perception,
and memory, and that is the limit of its representative quality, thats just
how the rules work.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 14:38:34 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: The Acceptance of Powergaming (was re RE:Darth Vader)
>> There is a basic misunderstanding of INT here. In Hero game terms INT does
>> not mean IQ, it means speed of thought, perception and memory, not sheer
>> brilliance. Someone who is a slow thinker but incredibly smart could be an
>> 8 INT, and somone who thinks fast but is average INT could be 18. I agree
>> with the assessment above
>With this definition INT would be used to calculate SPD and it totally
isnt... I
>think
>the definition doesnt match the actual usage in game... in game it represents
>more ones
>ability with mental skills... Including Math, Physics etc.
The fact that INT is not used for SPD does not negate the fact that the
stat, quite frankly, is used in the game for mental speed. The higher
speed you have the faster you decide and figure things out. Lets take your
examples, although neither one is neccessarily representative of intellect:
Joe has an INT of 25, and thus his INT-based skills are all 14- base. Fred
has an INT of 10 and thus has an 11- base for his INT-based skills. The
two buy math and we'll say that it's based on INT, without buying the roll
higher. Given an equal amount of time and equal resources to face an equal
problem, Joe makes his roll 90% of the time, and Fred about 50%. Fred
takes extra time, five minutes, and adds +3 to his roll, and suddenly....
his roll is no 14-... and he is equal.
Its just part of the game, whether that makes sense or seems reasonable to
you or fits how you would build INT for a game is not really important. In
all honesty, if I made a game system, INT would affect ALL skills you
perform, physical or not.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 17:38:41 EDT
From: Akirazeta@aol.com
Subject: Re: say INT ain't so
In a message dated 4/28/99 5:33:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
ctaylor@viser.net writes:
<< In Hero, INT measures speed of thought, perception,
and memory, and that is the limit of its representative quality, thats just
how the rules work. >>
Than your trying to say that Einstine has average human perception and
memory, even though he SINGEL HANDEDLY the rules of the universe into words
with very written down and nearly no experimentation at all?
Id say he had way way way beyond human perception to look at a rock rolling
down a hill and go "Inertia".
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 14:41:44 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: say INT ain't so [was Powergaming]
>> I use the formula SPD=(DEX+INT)/10 and have had no complaints from the
>> players...
>
>That sounds like a workable idea. I don't know if I'll use it, but I'll
>certainly make a note of it.
I'm giving it a lot of thought as well, I just dont like making major
changes to the rules that retrofit characters in this manner. It also does
not neccessarily follow that while you may decide what to do faster than
everyone, your body can follow through on this decision any quicker.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 14:46:12 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: Fwd: say INT ain't so [was Powergaming]
>Ok. So lets see here. First off, we have the fact that the DEX game mechanic
>that is totally and utterly messed up, and abused almose to the point of
>universal abuse.
>
>And we have INT, which is stated to be one thing in the manual and than used
>in a complete and contradictory way within the actuial game mechanics.
>
>And we have STR, which is a practically a free stat that apparent doesnt
>follow the same scale as the other stats, and is abused almost as much as
DEX.
>
>How has CHAMPS been so successful than? SOunds to me like its pretty
>unworkable.
Im not sure what your point is... if you are being sarcastic, the problems
people point out are hardly system damaging or endemic. Some people misuse
DEX (e.g. Rainbow Archer) and some people misuse INT and STR.... but this
doesn't really have much impact on the game.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 17:48:45 -0400
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: say INT ain't so
At 02:32 PM 4/28/99 -0700, Christopher Taylor wrote:
>
>Again, you are mistaking INT stat for intelligence as IQ or raw
>intellectual ability. In Hero, INT measures speed of thought, perception,
>and memory, and that is the limit of its representative quality, thats just
>how the rules work.
>
Speed of thought is what the description of INT says, but the bonus to INT
Skills can't always be explained by faster thought. Why should a 20 INT
character get a higher base for SC: Relativity Theory than a 10 INT
character, if speed of thought, perception, and memory are the only
qualities of INT? Sure, faster thinking will help if he's answering
questions on a timed quiz on relativity, but that sort of skill would be
used more often in slower-paced situations.
I'm not questioning the legitimacy of your interpretation of INT, but I do
think "that's just how the rules work" misrepresents the situation.
- - Bill Svitavsky
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 14:55:12 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: say INT ain't so
><< In Hero, INT measures speed of thought, perception,
> and memory, and that is the limit of its representative quality, thats just
> how the rules work. >>
>
>Than your trying to say that Einstine has average human perception and
>memory, even though he SINGEL HANDEDLY the rules of the universe into words
>with very written down and nearly no experimentation at all?
>
>Id say he had way way way beyond human perception to look at a rock rolling
>down a hill and go "Inertia".
I'd say that if you talked to Albert Einstein he would tell you that he
hardly did it single handedly in any definition of the word. However,
assuming he did, it took him decades, and none of this changes the fact
that in Hero Games rules the definition of INT (as shown in frequent other
posts) is not raw intellect nor IQ.
Reed Richards, who I would give a fantastic INT score does all the stuff
Einstein does, and does it on the fly, sometimes in combat.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 14:58:00 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: say INT ain't so
>>Again, you are mistaking INT stat for intelligence as IQ or raw
>>intellectual ability. In Hero, INT measures speed of thought, perception,
>>and memory, and that is the limit of its representative quality, thats just
>>how the rules work.
>>
>Speed of thought is what the description of INT says, but the bonus to INT
>Skills can't always be explained by faster thought. Why should a 20 INT
>character get a higher base for SC: Relativity Theory than a 10 INT
>character, if speed of thought, perception, and memory are the only
>qualities of INT? Sure, faster thinking will help if he's answering
>questions on a timed quiz on relativity, but that sort of skill would be
>used more often in slower-paced situations.
Well you probably have seen my exercise with extra time, and that would be
my answer, if someone is incredibly fast thinking and has the same skill as
someone slow, they will come to the same conclusion, at different rates of
speed. Rarely does someone do physics work on the fly as, say, Reed
Richards or the Furst Family in Astro City, but if you did, having a high
INT skill in Hero would make it feasible (and cinematic).
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 16:24:24 -0500
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@radiks.net>
Subject: Re: Revamping Secondary Characteristics
>
> SPD=((DEX/10)+(INT/5))/2 (INT doesn't contribute as much to SPD as DEX
> does, but it's a component)
oops this makes Intelligence more important not less dude
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 18:00:40 EDT
From: AndMat3@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: CHAMPS: 2009
In a message dated 4/28/99, 2:08:19 PM, bob.greenwade@klock.com writes:
<< It's just you. :-]>>
i knew that i was being unreasonable.
andy
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 17:03:25 -0500
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@radiks.net>
Subject: Re: say INT ain't so
And if INT simply offset negatives for performing these things fast I would say
yep
that mechanic simulates what it describes but it doesnt it enhances your ability
to
do them slow
Christopher Taylor wrote:
> >>Again, you are mistaking INT stat for intelligence as IQ or raw
> >>intellectual ability. In Hero, INT measures speed of thought, perception,
> >>and memory, and that is the limit of its representative quality, thats just
> >>how the rules work.
> >>
> >Speed of thought is what the description of INT says, but the bonus to INT
> >Skills can't always be explained by faster thought. Why should a 20 INT
> >character get a higher base for SC: Relativity Theory than a 10 INT
> >character, if speed of thought, perception, and memory are the only
> >qualities of INT? Sure, faster thinking will help if he's answering
> >questions on a timed quiz on relativity, but that sort of skill would be
> >used more often in slower-paced situations.
>
> Well you probably have seen my exercise with extra time, and that would be
> my answer, if someone is incredibly fast thinking and has the same skill as
> someone slow, they will come to the same conclusion, at different rates of
> speed. Rarely does someone do physics work on the fly as, say, Reed
> Richards or the Furst Family in Astro City, but if you did, having a high
> INT skill in Hero would make it feasible (and cinematic).
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
> Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 18:07:49 EDT
From: AndMat3@aol.com
Subject: Re: Revamping Secondary Characteristics
In a message dated 4/28/99, 2:59:22 PM, ghoyle1@airmail.net writes:
<<AGILITY SKILLS: 9+(DEX/5+EGO/5)/2>>
why is agility partially EGO based? mind over matter?
andy
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 18:06:19 EDT
From: AndMat3@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: CHAMPS: 2009
In a message dated 4/28/99, 2:10:03 PM, bob.greenwade@klock.com writes:
<<SNIP... we all know where i stand>>
<< No, this is *right.* NPCs are frequently allowed to do things that PCs
are not allowed to do, just as antagonists in fiction frequently have
things that would (and should) never be available to the protagonists.
This has been done since the early days of Champions, when villains like
Mechanon, Doctor Destroyer, and others were published with Villain Bonuses.>>
correct. villain bonuses. extra points. i agree with that. what i don't agree
with is this: players are not allowed to buy Power Defense and the Villains
are.
now, to come off my point (slightly). In Fantasy Games, in Babylon 5, Star
Wars, Trek, whatever... there are rules for different kinds of characters.
All elves tend to have "x"; and so on. Some kinds of magic are not allowed
"good" characters; but some kinds of magic are not allows "evil" ones either.
In these cases, the rules are well established and known at the start. i have
no problem with this.
as for horror games where the POINT of the game is engaging and attempting to
stop things that "aren't human"... then everyone should know going in what
they are in for.
but. in Champions.... what's good for the good for one should be good for all.
andy
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 18:14:17 -0400
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: say INT ain't so
At 02:58 PM 4/28/99 -0700, Christopher Taylor wrote:
>>>Again, you are mistaking INT stat for intelligence as IQ or raw
>>>intellectual ability. In Hero, INT measures speed of thought, perception,
>>>and memory, and that is the limit of its representative quality, thats just
>>>how the rules work.
>>>
>>Speed of thought is what the description of INT says, but the bonus to INT
>>Skills can't always be explained by faster thought. Why should a 20 INT
>>character get a higher base for SC: Relativity Theory than a 10 INT
>>character, if speed of thought, perception, and memory are the only
>>qualities of INT? Sure, faster thinking will help if he's answering
>>questions on a timed quiz on relativity, but that sort of skill would be
>>used more often in slower-paced situations.
>
>Well you probably have seen my exercise with extra time, and that would be
>my answer, if someone is incredibly fast thinking and has the same skill as
>someone slow, they will come to the same conclusion, at different rates of
>speed. Rarely does someone do physics work on the fly as, say, Reed
>Richards or the Furst Family in Astro City, but if you did, having a high
>INT skill in Hero would make it feasible (and cinematic).
>
My copy of that post was downloaded to a different computer than the one
I'm on, so forgive me if you've already answered this, but...
With this interpretation, Reed Richards with x points in SC: Relativity
Theory would still have a better roll than Albert Einstein with x points in
relativity theory. That is, in like conditions, if they each spend the same
amount of extra time, Mr. Fantastic always gets a better roll than Al baby.
Granted, Al could buy his roll up, but he ends up paying a lot more for
science skills merely to have the privilege of thinking slower.
It seems to me this is a cost balance problem that's easily solved by
taking a fuzzy view of one rather weak explanation. A high INT does a good
job of simulating someone who's capable of understanding many complex ideas
- - or would, if we ignore that basic description of INT.
- Bill Svitavsky
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 15:21:20 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: say INT ain't so
>> Well you probably have seen my exercise with extra time, and that would be
>> my answer, if someone is incredibly fast thinking and has the same skill as
>> someone slow, they will come to the same conclusion, at different rates of
>> speed. Rarely does someone do physics work on the fly as, say, Reed
>> Richards or the Furst Family in Astro City, but if you did, having a high
>> INT skill in Hero would make it feasible (and cinematic).
>And if INT simply offset negatives for performing these things fast I
would say
>yep that mechanic simulates what it describes but it doesnt it enhances
your ability
>to do them slow
Let me try to do this a different way, apparently I didn't state it well.
If someone with a high INT can perform a given task faster than a person
with a low INT (taking extra time to equal the roll), does that seem to
demonstrate that higher INT means you can perform tasks faster than low
INT? Thus demonstrating that even in game terms high INT is faster
thinking, as the rules state INT is?
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 18:18:13 EDT
From: MWStrong@aol.com
Subject: Einstein & INT
If Albert only had a 10 INT, how did he have an IQ over 200? An 18- in
physics does NOT yield an excellent roll in math or astronomy. Anyone who
has an understanding of Quantum Mechanics knows the insane math involved (I
do). He also developed theories on black holes. I would place the mans' INT
at 25 or so. Yes, 20 is the NCM, but his IQ was BEYOND the NORMAL HUMAN.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 18:32:37 -0400
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Re: CHAMPS: 2009
At 06:06 PM 4/28/99 EDT, AndMat3@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 4/28/99, 2:10:03 PM, bob.greenwade@klock.com writes:
><<SNIP... we all know where i stand>>
>
><< No, this is *right.* NPCs are frequently allowed to do things that PCs
>are not allowed to do, just as antagonists in fiction frequently have
>things that would (and should) never be available to the protagonists.
>This has been done since the early days of Champions, when villains like
>Mechanon, Doctor Destroyer, and others were published with Villain Bonuses.>>
>
>correct. villain bonuses. extra points. i agree with that. what i don't
agree
>with is this: players are not allowed to buy Power Defense and the Villains
>are.
>
>now, to come off my point (slightly). In Fantasy Games, in Babylon 5, Star
>Wars, Trek, whatever... there are rules for different kinds of characters.
>All elves tend to have "x"; and so on. Some kinds of magic are not allowed
>"good" characters; but some kinds of magic are not allows "evil" ones
either.
>In these cases, the rules are well established and known at the start. i
have
>no problem with this.
>
>as for horror games where the POINT of the game is engaging and attempting
to
>stop things that "aren't human"... then everyone should know going in what
>they are in for.
>
>but. in Champions.... what's good for the good for one should be good for
all.
>
But there's enormous variety in superhero universes. Suppose the GM wants a
campaign world where time travel is very, very difficult - like the DC
Universe immediately after the Crisis. There might be one NPC time
traveller hero (Rip Hunter), and a couple of time travelling villains (The
Time Trapper & the Lord of Time, say). But if it's an important part of the
campaign for time travel to feel next-to-impossible, the GM might want to
forbid PC's to have it.
Or, the feel of the campaign might be extremely four-color, code-approved,
good for kids. For that reason, the GM might insist that PC's not buy any
killing attacks at all. There could still be a scary villain with a sword
(and a lousy OCV), though.
A less extreme case might be a GM who feels that mind control is an
inappropriate power for heroes. Mind-controllers are bad guys by
definition, so PC's can't buy mind control. Another campaign might define
all characters with the Interrogation skill as villains, or all mages as
evil Satanists (and the only ones with VPP's).
And what if you're running a Watchmen campaign? Dr. Manhattan is almost
certain to be an NPC, and nobody else is going to have powers anything like
his.
I think you underestimate the degree to which a GM can - and should - shape
a world, even in a relatively straightforward super-hero game.
- - Bill Svitavsky
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 18:43:04 -0400
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Einstein & INT
At 06:18 PM 4/28/99 EDT, MWStrong@aol.com wrote:
>If Albert only had a 10 INT, how did he have an IQ over 200? An 18- in
>physics does NOT yield an excellent roll in math or astronomy. Anyone who
>has an understanding of Quantum Mechanics knows the insane math involved (I
>do). He also developed theories on black holes. I would place the mans'
INT
>at 25 or so. Yes, 20 is the NCM, but his IQ was BEYOND the NORMAL HUMAN.
>
>
I'll set aside the INT vs. IQ debate for the moment to try to establish
something else about exceptional characteristics:
20 is a rather soft maximum, even for normal humans. Keep in mind that
characters with Age 40+ have a 25 max INT, and 60+characters have a 30 MAX.
And any normal can have a characteristic over 20 just by paying double for it.
I'd say that having an INT of 20 or above clearly defines the character as
a genius (which Einstein certainly was), but a 30 doesn't necessarily
require explanations involving mutation, aliens, magic, or what-have-you.
For that matter, I've seen a published Justice Inc. character (NPC) with 30
STR - he was simply "freakishly strong." It's not normal, but it's not
impossible either.
- - Bill Svitavsky
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 15:45:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: say INT ain't so
>At 02:32 PM 4/28/99 -0700, Christopher Taylor wrote:
>
>>
>>Again, you are mistaking INT stat for intelligence as IQ or raw
>>intellectual ability. In Hero, INT measures speed of thought, perception,
>>and memory, and that is the limit of its representative quality, thats just
>>how the rules work.
>>
>
>Speed of thought is what the description of INT says, but the bonus to INT
>Skills can't always be explained by faster thought. Why should a 20 INT
>character get a higher base for SC: Relativity Theory than a 10 INT
>character, if speed of thought, perception, and memory are the only
>qualities of INT? Sure, faster thinking will help if he's answering
I have to point out that basing Sciences off of Intelligence is an
_optional_ rule. The real answer is that skills in many cases sould be
based off of more than one ability, some of which are either lumped into
other attributes or aren't represented at all. So if one chooses to use the
optional rule, then one has decided that the factors applied in Hero
Intelligence _are_ relevant enough to be basis of that sort of skill.
Otherwise one just uses it as is actually the default, which is as a base 11
with no stat modification.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 18:58:26 -0500
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: say INT ain't so [was Powergaming]
At 11:47 AM 4/28/99 -0500, Lance Dyas wrote:
> Show me the game mechanic that has a high INT character able to think
> faster? Coming to decisions quicker? or perform a complex analysis in a
> shorter time base?
OK: the fact that PER is based on an INT roll. Perception is the ability to
process sensory information quickly enough to act on it; it is improved by
INT, the ability to process *any* information quickly.
A moment's thought will illustrate that this, the idea that Perception
occurs in the *mind* and not in the senses themselves, must be true: a
sniper is hidden in the bushes; two characters are asked to make PER rolls,
one succeeds, the other does not. Light and sound travel in all directions;
both characters have technically been exposed to the same light patterns
(sight) and atmospheric vibrations (sound). In essence, the presence of the
sniper is there in *both* individuals' sensory data -- the question is, are
they capable of interpreting the incoming data and recognizing it for what
it is, within a time frame short enough to be useful?
- --
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 18:58:28 -0500
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: The Acceptance of Powergaming (was re RE:Darth Vader)
At 11:29 AM 4/28/99 -0500, Lance Dyas wrote:
> With this definition INT would be used to calculate SPD and it totally
> isnt ... I think the definition doesnt match the actual usage in game
> ... in game it represents more ones ability with mental skills ...
> Including Math, Physics etc.
No, it doesn't match the actual usage -- but is this a feature or a bug?
For what it's worth, in my campaigns, I *does* it match the usage:
* I increase the cost of INT to 2/1, to take into account the changes
below (mostly the altered SPD formula).
* As others have already suggested, (DEX+INT)/10 works as a SPD
formula.
* Non-physical initiative (including skill uses and mental combat)
act on INT, not EGO.
* Offensive Psychic Value (OPV), my home rule term for the clunkier
"OECV", is INT/3 instead of EGO/3.
It seems to work, at least as well as the current system, and (IMHO, of
course) it feels more correct.
- --
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 18:58:30 -0500
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: say INT ain't so [was Powergaming]
At 12:27 PM 4/28/99 -0400, Brian Wawrow wrote:
> I refuse to accept that Mr. Funstick, Reed Richards is more intelligent
> than the Father of Modern Physics.
Then you must not have had any actual exposure to Fantastic Four comics. :/
Come ON, man! Yes, Einstein wrote the book on relativity -- but Reed
Richards is the father of /several/ branches of POST-modern physics. Within
his own (fictional, obviously) universe, he's OBVIOUSLY more intelligent
than Einstein -- after all, Reed Richards understands Faster-than-Light
Travel and several other concepts that are *beyond* the scope of general
relativity. :]
Frankly, this is like saying "I refuse to accept that ol' Web-head, Peter
Parker, is stronger than the Guiness record-holder Alexei Vasilov" (or
whoever holds it currently). He just *is*, because that's how the writers
want it. It's part of what makes the character a /super/hero rather than
just a fictional character.
- --
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 18:58:31 -0500
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: Darth Vader
At 09:57 AM 4/28/99 -0400, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>It doesn't appear so. In fact, when he tells Luke to take off his helmet in
>RotJ, Luke objects "But you'll die!" He does have the helmet off in that
>one Empire scene, but he's in his big pod thing which is presumably
>designed for such maintenance. I'd say Vader is a cyborg, so his
>characteristics should be bought straight, not through a focus.
My own preference is to buy cybernetic-based CHAR "Doesn't Affect Figured
Characteristics" -- but that's just an aesthetic choice, I suppose.
>This reminds me of a PC in one of my early campaigns who insisted on buying
>a battlesuit that provided life support as a focus. After villains stole
>the suit & he spent an adventure hooked to life support equipment in a
>hospital while his teammates retrieved it, he begged to rewrite the
>character.
This was purchased via Dependency, yes?
I recall a character my brother (and current GM) had constructed once who
was interesting -- he was a cyborg who had bought his various artificial
limbs as Foci, and an instant Susceptibility to their removal. This allowed
characters to literally "dis-arm" him in a fight. :]
- --
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 18:58:39 -0500
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: say INT ain't so [was Powergaming]
At 03:26 PM 4/28/99 -0500, Lance Dyas wrote:
>The only real problem I see this is the statistics costs would make
>Intelligence the favored stat for speedsters ;) Honestly this isnt that hard
>to fix.
>
>Change dex and int cost to 2.5 or try this idea SPD = DEX/8 + INT/12
Uh, I'd try DEX=3 and INT=2. The value of DEX hasn't been reduced any by
this change, it simply now has an alternative. And the math is simpler with
(DEX+INT)/10. :]
- --
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 18:58:36 -0500
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Darth Vader (rough)
At 06:28 PM 4/28/99 -0700, Rick Holding wrote:
> Swords are balanced, have a certain amount of weight and inertia and
> hence can be controlled by anybody who knows how to swing a pool cue.
> Not well I will grant you, but the heft is there. A light saber is a
> handle with a very efficent cutting device coming out of it which makes
> it very easy to lose a foot or something. Major disincentive number
> two.
Generally speaking, MORE weight makes something HARDER to control, not
easier. I want to put my arm and hand just *so*. I want the tool to go where
the arm and hand is. The weight of the tool (specifically, the inertia,
resistance to changes in motion, created by its mass) fights me in this. The
greater the mass of the tool, the more effort I have to use to move it into
position AND the greater effort I must exert to make it STOP once I've got
it there.
If I have something of the unstoppable force of a lighsaber blade, I WANT it
to be weightless, for MAXIMUM controllability. Yes, it moves faster than
(say) a claymore, but it also STOPS faster than a claymore, which makes it
*less* likely to "lose a foot or something".
> Finally, and probarly the main reason, consider the environment. Every
> man and his companion who you might want to use a light saber on is
> carrying a blaster. And unless you have the drop on the opposition and
> are in real close, they will pull out their blaster and put big holes in
> you. Yes, the light saber can deflect blaster bolts. But unless you
> are REALLY lucky, or a Jedi, you are going to swing and miss. End
> result the same. Major disincentive number three.
This is probably the real heart of the matter: the question isn't "why
doesn't everyone use lightsabers", the question is "why DO Jedi use them?"
The answer seems to be linked to Obi-Wan's description of the lightsaber as
a "more elegant" weapon than the blaster. Blasters are easy, and the choice
of weapon of those who WANT to fight. Lightsabers are difficult to use
*effectively* (in the same way that a rapier is less effective than a modern
firearm); linking Jedi training with an intentionally ineffecient weapon is
a way of weeding out the "hey, when are we going to kick some ass?" Ed
Grubermans from the Jedi ranks in favor of the truly sincere and worthy
students seeking enlightenment.
==
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 16:54:41 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Re: CHAMPS: 2009
At 06:06 PM 4/28/1999 EDT, AndMat3@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 4/28/99, 2:10:03 PM, bob.greenwade@klock.com writes:
><<SNIP... we all know where i stand>>
>
><< No, this is *right.* NPCs are frequently allowed to do things that PCs
>are not allowed to do, just as antagonists in fiction frequently have
>things that would (and should) never be available to the protagonists.
>This has been done since the early days of Champions, when villains like
>Mechanon, Doctor Destroyer, and others were published with Villain Bonuses.>>
>
>correct. villain bonuses. extra points. i agree with that. what i don't
agree
>with is this: players are not allowed to buy Power Defense and the Villains
>are.
I've never heard of that one before. I've heard of it for
Extra-Dimensional Movement, Clairsentience through time (Precognition and
Retrocognition), and various Mental Powers -- mainly abilities that could
affect the flow of the plot -- but not Power Defense.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 16:57:57 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Einstein & INT
At 06:18 PM 4/28/1999 EDT, MWStrong@aol.com wrote:
>If Albert only had a 10 INT, how did he have an IQ over 200? An 18- in
>physics does NOT yield an excellent roll in math or astronomy. Anyone who
>has an understanding of Quantum Mechanics knows the insane math involved (I
>do). He also developed theories on black holes. I would place the mans'
INT
>at 25 or so. Yes, 20 is the NCM, but his IQ was BEYOND the NORMAL HUMAN.
1. INT and IQ do not necessarily correspond.
2. Skill Levels can be bought with Science Skills as a group, or a
certain type of Science Skills.
2. Characteristic Maxima are not absolute maxima. They can be
exceeded; it just costs twice as much to do so.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: 28 Apr 1999 22:00:05 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Einstein & INT
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* MWStrong@aol.com on Wed, 28 Apr 1999
| If Albert only had a 10 INT, how did he have an IQ over 200?
Because INT is a measure of how *fast* you can process information, whereas
IQ is a (IMO skewed) measure of how much information is stored in your
brain.
The two are totally unrelated concepts.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ head.
------------------------------
Date: 28 Apr 1999 22:02:24 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: say INT ain't so
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* Akirazeta@aol.com on Wed, 28 Apr 1999
| Than your trying to say that Einstine has average human perception and
| memory,
Actually, Einstein's was below average. He is, after all, the prototypical
absent-minded professor.
| even though he SINGEL HANDEDLY the rules of the universe into words with
| very written down and nearly no experimentation at all?
And it took him only about 30 years to do it.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ Earth, presumably from outer space.
------------------------------
Date: 28 Apr 1999 22:07:37 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: say INT ain't so
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* Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us> on Wed, 28 Apr 1999
| With this interpretation, Reed Richards with x points in SC: Relativity
| Theory would still have a better roll than Albert Einstein with x points in
| relativity theory. That is, in like conditions, if they each spend the same
| amount of extra time, Mr. Fantastic always gets a better roll than Al baby.
Mr. Fantastic is a superhero with superhuman scientific ablity.
Albert Einstein is not.
I see no problem, here.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ Earth, presumably from outer space.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 23:44:27 -0400
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@early.com>
Subject: Re: Revamping Secondary Characteristics
Guy Hoyle writes:
>Currently, most secondary characteristics and character-based skills are
>computed based on a single characteristic (except, of course, for
Recovery,
>Endurance, and Stun). What if we reworked that a little bit so that the
>other Secondary Charcateristics and the Characteristic-based skills were
>based off of more than one characteristic?
>
>PD=(STR+BODY)/5
>ED=(CON+BODY)/5
I favor combining PD and ED into a single DEF stat that costs 2 character
points per point of DEF. If a character is, say, especially resistant to
flame attacks, that might be bought as points of DEF with a limitation.
>SPD=((DEX/10)+(INT/5))/2 (INT doesn't contribute as much to SPD as DEX
>does, but it's a component)
I've experimented with such SPD formulas as (INT/10)+(DEX/10),
0.5+(DEX/10)+(INT/20), and even (DEX/10)+(INT/20)+(CON/20), but didn't find
a revised formula I really like. I'm also leaning toward a base SPD of 3
for normal humans, reserving 2 SPD for incompetent normals, with a max of 6
SPD for normal humans.
>CHARACTERISTIC-BASED SKILLS
>
>INT-BASED SKILLS: Remains 9+INT/5
>
>AGILITY SKILLS: 9+(DEX/5+EGO/5)/2
>
>COMMUNICATION SKILLS: 9+(PRE/5+COM/5)/2
>
>This system gives COM and EGO a bit more to do, as well as helping (to
some
>degree) the granularity of the point breaks at heroic levels, or so it
>seems to me.
>
>Feedback is welcome.
I rather like characteristic formulas based on 8+(CHA/3), with gradually
increasing costs for the primary stats above 15, 20, and 25 for characters
with the NCM disadvantage.
I'd get rid of COM as a stat. If a character is handsome or ugly, that's
part of the character description, like height, weight, and eye color. If
a character is so beauteous or dapper that it influences interpersonal
skills, then that can be treated as a talent, rather like the way Fast Draw
can influence certain DEX rolls and Resistance can influence certain EGO
rolls.
Len Carpenter
redlion@early.com
"I heard they had cancelled the release of Windows 2000 and it is now
expected to be out in early 1901. But they don't know what the problem is
yet."
- --Gary Crocker
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #300
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Date: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 10:16 AM