Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 304
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Friday, April 30, 1999 12:10 AM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #304
champ-l-digest Friday, April 30 1999 Volume 01 : Number 304
In this issue:
Re: Banter in combat
Re: Banter in combat
Re: Banter in combat
Re: Recognition & Reputation Comments
Re: eating and sleeping
Re: Banter in combat
Re: Pie-In-The-Face Flash
Re: DBZ adaptions finished
RE: <FHList> eating and sleeping
Re: DBZ adaptions finished
Scooby snacks as Aid/Transfer
Teleporting Body Parts
Positive Reputations
INT
Re: DBZ adaptions finished
Re: Einstein & INT
Re: Scooby snacks as Aid/Transfer
Re: Einstein & INT
Re: say INT ain't so
Re: say INT ain't so
Re: Einstein & INT
Re: say INT ain't so [was Powergaming]
Re: say INT ain't so
Re: say INT ain't so
Re: say INT ain't so
Re: DBZ adaptions finished
Re: Einstein & INT
Spock's Brain
Re: Spock's Brain
Re: Spock's Brain
Re: <FHList> eating and sleeping
Re: Spock's Brain
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 16:08:32 -0500 (CDT)
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Subject: Re: Banter in combat
I always had a problem coming up with villain soliloguies so I would
just say "The villains rants". This eventually got shortened to
"rant, rant"....
Curt
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 14:10:42 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Banter in combat
At 08:42 PM 4/29/1999 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Banter in combat
>Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l-digest@sysabend.org>
>
>How do you guys handle talking in combat? The way I've done it was to
>allow PCs to say short things that don't require responses, but only on
>their phases. So if you have a SPD 6 and a SPD 5 character, the 6 could
>say "Let's flee!" on segment 6, but the 5 could not reply until segment 8=
>,
>his next phase. Even on 8, which is a phase for both, they only get one
>chance to say something. So one person might say "Into the alley!" and t=
>he
>other one could reply "But what about our wounded comrade?", but that wou=
>ld
>be all the talking allowed on phase 8.
>
>This sorta works okay, but does feel awkward at times. Now, I want to
>start introducing a lot more banter between PCs and villains, similar to
>the way Spider-Man talks to his opponents (and vice versa) as they are
>punching at each other or whatever. Should I continue to use this method=
>
>for villains too? My thinking is that it will be so chopped up that it
>will be hard to follow, especially when there are multiple characters on
>each side.
>
>Any recommendations on how to handle conversation in combat?
This depends on the feel you want. What you do is just about perfect
for a reasonabily realistic setting, such as one might find on most TV or
movies. If you want a Romantic feel that takes a lot of creative license,
let the PCs recite Shakespeare between phases.
I'll probably never forget the issue of Legion of Super-Heroes in the
early eighties, where Ultra Boy did a trick of using his "Flash-Vision"
against a group of advancing opponents in metal armor, then switching to
his super-breath to quick-freeze the recently-melted armor, trapping the
men within without harming them. Mind you, this was a thirty-second
soliloquy (I even tried reciting it out loud and timing it) said in the
time it takes to perform a split-second action -- and he continued to talk
while he used his super-breath.
The short of it is, if you want to increase the banter during combat,
just explain this to your players and relax the rule to what you feel
comfortable with.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 16:23:53 -0500
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Banter in combat
At 04:48 PM 4/29/1999 -0400, David Stallard wrote:
>How do you guys handle talking in combat? The way I've done it was to
>allow PCs to say short things that don't require responses, but only on
>their phases. So if you have a SPD 6 and a SPD 5 character, the 6 could
>say "Let's flee!" on segment 6, but the 5 could not reply until segment 8,
>his next phase. Even on 8, which is a phase for both, they only get one
>chance to say something. So one person might say "Into the alley!" and the
>other one could reply "But what about our wounded comrade?", but that would
>be all the talking allowed on phase 8.
>
>This sorta works okay, but does feel awkward at times. Now, I want to
>start introducing a lot more banter between PCs and villains, similar to
>the way Spider-Man talks to his opponents (and vice versa) as they are
>punching at each other or whatever. Should I continue to use this method
>for villains too? My thinking is that it will be so chopped up that it
>will be hard to follow, especially when there are multiple characters on
>each side.
>
>Any recommendations on how to handle conversation in combat?
I would suggest you remove all restrictions on the timing of speech.
BBB page 141 says that speaking (soliloquies) take No Time. It is my
understanding that No Time activities differ from 0-Phase actions in that
they can be done in between a character's Phases. I may be wrong about
that. If I am, then the GM can only ask me to make any kind of die roll on
my Phase.
If you odn't agree with the above, I can think of two other things you
might try:
1) Use the Mental SPD rules someone else suggested recently and allow
conversation during the Mental Phases; this will only work if the average
INT is higher than the average DEX in your campaign, which usually is not
the case.
2) Give everyone in the game a SPD of 8 for purposes of bantering and other
ongoing conversation. Why 8? Why not? It'll allow for lively
conversation, but give you four segments every Turn where everyone's
character will have to shut up and just DO something. (Hopefully they're
remembering to do other things while bantering...)
Damon
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 17:25:21 -0500
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavsky@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Recognition & Reputation Comments
At 02:00 PM 4/29/99 PDT, Jesse Thomas wrote:
>On Thu, 29 Apr 1999 Geoff Speare wrote:
>>
>>half of the character's highest total, since truly great heroes are
>not
>>forgotten.) Since Recognition and Reputation points are connected,
>>Reputation points would have to go down as well, although this seems
>odd.
>>
>It does seem odd, but if you think about it, it can make sense,
>especially if you stipulate a minimum decrease in Reputation, as
>well. This represents the fickle nature of the public. Even if they
>adored Superguy when he was fighting crime 10 years ago, if he
>disappeared and showed up again later, he might well be greeted with
>a "what have you done for me lately?" attitude. Obviously, this
>wouldn't downgrade anyone to villain status (except, perhaps, in
>those cases where someone was counting on him and he didn't show up),
>but would definitely take him out of the "can do no wrong" category.
>
A case could be made, though, for having Reputation decrease more slowly
than Recognition as nostalgia boosted the images of past heroes. "They just
don't make heroes like they used to. Now, Captain Mighty, *there* was a
hero!"
It seems to me declining Recognition & Reputation are just too complex for
a smooth hero mechanic. Look at Ronald Reagan and Jimmy Carter; Reagan
certainly had a better Reputation when he left office, but over time the
analytical views of historians have diminished Reagan's reputation and
augmented Carter's. (This is just a convenient example. Please, let's leave
all political debates aside.) This also bring to mind another complexity of
Recognition; after a certain amount of fame is achieved, a person doesn't
have to do anything new to appear in the media, and that appearance can
easily improve or diminish the person's reputation. If a hero is still
active, I think it's safe to ignore the effect of retrospective
re-evaluation, but for inactive characters it's a fairly significant
influence.
Since, with no system for decline of abilities, I'd have to take some
liberties rewriting the point value and experience of any hero who'd been
out of action for a while, I'd have no problem arbitrarily adjusting
Recognition & Reputation unsystematically.
- - Bill Svitavsky
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 14:47:30 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: eating and sleeping
> ] About 2 hours of Transcendental Meditation can completely
> ] replace the problem of
> ] sleep deprevation
> Well, yes and no. I've done some TM and I sure can't substitute it for a
> good night's sleep. Of course, I would only have it at 8 or less. Thus the
> successful meditation roll is required.
Since you require a dream state and REM every 4 hours to get true rest that
will prevent the hallucinations and brain fugue that sleep deprevation
causes I would say that TM will only be a temporary fix, a day or two at
most. However, in a Fantasy Game, mystic meditation powers like Wu Shu and
other practicioners were alleged to possess would probably work fine.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 14:56:56 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: Banter in combat
>I always had a problem coming up with villain soliloguies so I would
>just say "The villains rants". This eventually got shortened to
>"rant, rant"....
But its so much more FUN to do the actual rant as a GM! You can really get
into it, give the bad guy some personality instead of being the punching
bag of the week. Often you have such a cool plotline that the PCs never
get to see, this is a perfect time for him to brag about his genius or moan
the woe that betides him despite such a clever plan.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 17:57:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
Subject: Re: Pie-In-The-Face Flash
On Thu, 29 Apr 1999, Jesse Thomas wrote:
>
> >Flash 2d6
> >Effects groups Sight and Taste/Smell +20
> >NND: Flash Defense is ineffective. The Defense is a Force Wall,
> >Force
> >Field, frictionless surface surrounding one's body, having extra
> >eyes (or
> >no head or face at all), or hard eye coverings that can be taken
> >off. The
> >character may spend Segments "clearing away" the sticky masses, which
> >should take some time (+1);
>
> I'd think that this mechanic would simply be part of the effects of a
> Flash. Remember, the roll you make when you hit with a Flash attack
> determines how long it lasts. Presumably, the reason that the Flash
> only lasts X number of phases is not because the pie evaporates of
> it's own initiative, but because the victim is trying to remove it.
>
> Jesse Thomas
Actually, the goop in the pies is a biriedly but thick foaming
agent that "sticks" well, but dosen't damage the eyes. It's like a super
sticky, super foamy alginate subtance.
I'm going to probaly have to make this power a two-parter: Linked
Flash and Entangle (which blocks sense groups). One for the actual
clearing out of gunnk, the other for the time it takes the body to clear
the clingy residue out of the eyes.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 15:00:24 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: DBZ adaptions finished
>Michael I can barely stand to be in the room as my son watches this stuff...
>thinking about them in the detail it would take to design the characters
>would be a horrible experience.
All I want to know is how I can get my hair to stand up in pointy bits like
that, he looks so cool....
At least its better than Pokemon *shudder*, do you suppose gamers in Japan
are working on writing up Scooby Doo and the Smurfs?
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 15:02:35 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: RE: <FHList> eating and sleeping
>] humans are way more vulnerable to lack of Water than food
>] lack 5 to 7 x as
>] vulnerable
>Right. I'm not so much worried about food and water for this specific
>adventure. I'm planning on a two-week hike across the plains with a pack of
>hounds [See Mike's Black Dog writeup] baying and sniffing every step of the
>way. I think I'm also going to have people's REC stat drop by one or two
>every day.
As I understand it an average person that is not doing moderate exercise
will die from lack of water in around a week (this may hold true for total
rest as well) and from lack of food in around two weeks. As demonstrated
by zealous terrorists/cum martyr saints via hollywood, one can live for
about a month before coma sets in without food, assuming total rest.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 18:05:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: DBZ adaptions finished
On Thu, 29 Apr 1999, Christopher Taylor wrote:
> >Michael I can barely stand to be in the room as my son watches this stuff...
> >thinking about them in the detail it would take to design the characters
> >would be a horrible experience.
>
> All I want to know is how I can get my hair to stand up in pointy bits like
> that, he looks so cool....
Use a lot of VO5 I think. Or Crisco.
> At least its better than Pokemon *shudder*, do you suppose gamers in Japan
> are working on writing up Scooby Doo and the Smurfs?
Pokeman... please, I don't want to hurl!
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an
infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even
considering if there is a man on base. - Dave Barry
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 17:25:36 -0500
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Scooby snacks as Aid/Transfer
>On Thu, 29 Apr 1999, Christopher Taylor wrote:
>
>> At least its better than Pokemon *shudder*, do you suppose gamers in Japan
>> are working on writing up Scooby Doo and the Smurfs?
Scooby and the gang have already been written up for the [Cthulhu] MYTHOS
card game:
http://www.inzenity.com/sdmythos/
Allies for the group include Sandy Duncan, the Harlem Globetrotters and
Phyllis Diller, but I gotta say these people don't treat Allies well:
"You may bury Phyllis Diller instead of paying the Sanity cost for
playing one Artifact."
Alexander Cabot III, manager of the toon-rock band Josie and the Pussycats,
is also part of this card set...can Josie and the girls be far behind?
Damon
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 08:37:27 +1000
From: Phil Chappell <pchap@macquarie.matra.com.au>
Subject: Teleporting Body Parts
In my campaigns, there's no way teleporting body parts as an attack would be
a simple RKA - why would Armour defend against it?
I'd define it as something like RKA, NND or RKA, AVLD(Power). And these are
only allowed at GM's discretion, so disallow it!
But I wouldn't let a hero take it anyway - it's very unheroic.
Even my 'Angel' character (who has the 'casual killer' Psych.Lim.) wouldn't
do anything this nasty - being non-human, he just can't see why the guilty
shouldn't be punished 'properly'!
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 08:37:25 +1000
From: Phil Chappell <pchap@macquarie.matra.com.au>
Subject: Positive Reputations
Hi guys,
I'm new to the list so go easy on me if I rehash old arguments...
I have no problem with Reps as Disads occasionally being helpful to the
character when interacting with NPCs. If, however, the player wants the Rep.
to RELIABLY help him, I'd make him buy it as something like extra PRE with a
limitation 'only versus characters who make their Rep. roll for my "casual
killer" rep.', or 'only versus Imperial Stormtroopers'.
Phil
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 18:45:28 EDT
From: MWStrong@aol.com
Subject: INT
OK, It was not my intention to start a firestorm on testing and IQ. It was
the statement that Einstien probably would have an INT of 10, and just a
hefty pjysics roll. It is my opinion that the INT characteristic is a
combination of speed of thought, problem solving, and quality of perception.
Knowlege is not INT, but knowlege skiils. I know several physicists that are
excellent chess players, both physics and chess require good speed of
thought, problem solving, and perception (int), not just hefty skill rolls.
------------------------------
Date: 29 Apr 1999 19:55:39 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: DBZ adaptions finished
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* Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net> on Thu, 29 Apr 1999
| At least its better than Pokemon *shudder*,
What's wrong with Pokémon?
| do you suppose gamers in Japan are working on writing up Scooby Doo and
| the Smurfs?
Wouldn't suprise me.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ Earth, presumably from outer space.
------------------------------
Date: 29 Apr 1999 20:02:15 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Einstein & INT
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* geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net> on Thu, 29 Apr 1999
| However, I also disagree with the statement that IQ tests measure
| knowledge. They went to great lengths to design them to not be biased by
| knowledge or education.
Yeah, well, the aborigine from the Australian Outback will certainly score
lower than, say, you. The reason is not because you are more 'intelligent'
than he, but because the test *IS* biased.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds.
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 17:06:55 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: Scooby snacks as Aid/Transfer
>>> At least its better than Pokemon *shudder*, do you suppose gamers in Japan
>>> are working on writing up Scooby Doo and the Smurfs?
>
>Scooby and the gang have already been written up for the [Cthulhu] MYTHOS
>card game:
>
>http://www.inzenity.com/sdmythos/
>
>Allies for the group include Sandy Duncan, the Harlem Globetrotters and
>Phyllis Diller, but I gotta say these people don't treat Allies well:
>
> "You may bury Phyllis Diller instead of paying the Sanity cost for
> playing one Artifact."
>
>Alexander Cabot III, manager of the toon-rock band Josie and the Pussycats,
>is also part of this card set...can Josie and the girls be far behind?
Actually of all the card games I tried, that was the funnest and the one I
still go back to, it even plays solitaire style rather well. Spooky and
disturbing but fun.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 29 Apr 1999 20:11:51 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Einstein & INT
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* "Len Carpenter" <redlion@early.com> on Thu, 29 Apr 1999
| Forgive me for coming across so harshly, but far too many persons have been
| screwed over by testing misuse. The horror stories are endless.
Here's mine... my sister's, actually. For years she had problems with math
in school. They made her take an IQ test, which she did okay on -- that
is, she scored 'average'. Diagnosis: she was not applying herself enough
to her math homework. She was told this. She worked harder and harder but
her math grades never improved. She eventually became so frustrated with
the whole thing that she dropped out of school.
A year later she learned The Truth: she suffers from a form of dyslexia
which causes her brain to reverse signs. That is, if the problem is '3 +
2' her brain says '3 - 2' and provides the answer '1'.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
------------------------------
Date: 29 Apr 1999 20:19:37 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: say INT ain't so
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* Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us> on Thu, 29 Apr 1999
| I was using them for the sake of example, Rat. The point is that with a
| strict interpretation of INT (as speed of thought), the Hero System models
| a slow-thinking genius badly. But with a loose interpretation (reflect IQ
| in INT), it models a slow-thinking genius fairly well - so why not just
| make a loose interpretation?
Because your example happenes to be the perfect example of the difference
between building a normal and a superhero. Albert Einstein is a normal
human, built as a normal human. Mr. Fantastic is a superhero, built as a
superhero. One set of rules applies to Einstein, a significantly different
set applies to Mr. Fantastic.
Most of the list, myself included, happen to think that the Hero system
models the slow-thinking genius perfectly well the way it is written. Give
Einstein an INT of 7, spend those 3 points on 'Scientist', and any points
he gets from disadvantages on Science skills. Voila! Albert Einstein for 0
points.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ Earth, presumably from outer space.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 20:35:59 -0400
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@early.com>
Subject: Re: say INT ain't so
Akirazeta@aol.com writes:
>The diffrence between modern mans passive "entertianment", and primitive
mans >out door life is that primitive man was little more than a very smart
ape,
>with no comprehension of anything other than procreation and gathering
food.
>Modern man has a capacity to think and interpret diffrent philosophical
>views of non-voilent media.
>
>What Im saying is, I find it pretty funny that someone would propose that
>Homo Erectus could comprehend and proccess though faster than the most
>perfect organism yet to be discovered: Homo Sapian.
Perhaps you misunderstood the meaning of "primitive" man as I addressed in
my post and as Jared Diamond discusses in his book Guns, Germs, and Steel.
The primitive man Diamond describes is not Homo Erectus, but modern Homo
Sapiens who live in those lands outside the so-called civilized world of
Europe and the societies created by European settlers on other continents,
the same humans who live in New Guinea today and with whom Diamond lived
for several years in the 1970s.
While living in New Guinea as part of his biological research on bird
evolution, he befriended a local politician named Yali, a man who impressed
Diamond with his intelligence and curiosity. When European colonists first
arrived in New Guinea, bringing with them their "cargo" of technological
marvels and manufactured goods, the New Guineans were still living in the
"stone age." The white colonials despised the dark-skinned "primitives"
they ruled over. Even the least able of white "masters" enjoyed a status
higher than that of most intelligent and competent natives.
Now Yali and Diamond both knew that the average New Guinean was at least as
smart as the average white. Yali once asked Diamond, "Why is it that you
white people developed so much cargo and brought it to New Guinea, but we
black people had little cargo of our own?" Diamond's book is an answer to
Yali's question, to understand why the modern world is what it is, why
human societies have diverged so remarkably over the past 13,000 years.
Diamond's comparison of passive entertainment versus active learning are
based on studies and observations of modern children in Western and
non-Western societies. It has nothing whatever to do with the way any
now-extinct human species, who may or may not have been as intelligent as
modern Homo Sapiens, once lived and thought.
Len Carpenter
redlion@early.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 20:51:28 -0400
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@early.com>
Subject: Re: Einstein & INT
Stainless Steel Rat writes:
>* geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net> on Thu, 29 Apr 1999
>| However, I also disagree with the statement that IQ tests measure
>| knowledge. They went to great lengths to design them to not be biased
by
>| knowledge or education.
>
>Yeah, well, the aborigine from the Australian Outback will certainly score
>lower than, say, you. The reason is not because you are more
'intelligent'
>than he, but because the test *IS* biased.
Absolutely. Too often, an "intelligence" test is only as good as its
ability to measure the skills necessary to get along in a particular
environment. In the Western world, it usually measures one's potential to
be a good paper-pusher in an office. A test designed to measure the forms
of intelligence, perception, and memory needed to survive in the Australian
Outback--and psychologists have indeed devised such tests--will of course
be biased in favor of those who grew up in that environment. Australian
children of European ancestry routinely do much worse than aboriginal
Australians on such tests.
Len Carpenter
redlion@early.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 10:51:38 +1000
From: Hamish Laws <h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: say INT ain't so [was Powergaming]
At 03:26 PM 4/28/99 -0500, you wrote:
>The only real problem I see this is the statistics costs would make
>Intelligence the favored stat for speedsters ;) Honestly this isnt that hard
>to fix.
>
>Change dex and int cost to 2.5 or try this idea SPD = DEX/8 + INT/12
>
>Can anyone else think of other implications of making int more important in
>this way?
you have to boost Grond's dex? <g>
****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************
Mad Hamish
Hamish Laws
h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au
h_laws@tassie.net.au
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 20:59:24 -0500
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavsky@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: say INT ain't so
At 08:19 PM 4/29/99 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
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>* Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us> on Thu, 29 Apr 1999
>| I was using them for the sake of example, Rat. The point is that with a
>| strict interpretation of INT (as speed of thought), the Hero System models
>| a slow-thinking genius badly. But with a loose interpretation (reflect IQ
>| in INT), it models a slow-thinking genius fairly well - so why not just
>| make a loose interpretation?
>
>Because your example happenes to be the perfect example of the difference
>between building a normal and a superhero. Albert Einstein is a normal
>human, built as a normal human. Mr. Fantastic is a superhero, built as a
>superhero. One set of rules applies to Einstein, a significantly different
>set applies to Mr. Fantastic.
>
>Most of the list, myself included, happen to think that the Hero system
>models the slow-thinking genius perfectly well the way it is written. Give
>Einstein an INT of 7, spend those 3 points on 'Scientist', and any points
>he gets from disadvantages on Science skills. Voila! Albert Einstein for 0
>points.
That works fine for absent-minded normals. But how about slower thinking
absent-minded heroes? Arguably the Doctor (Doctor Who) might fall in this
category - he certainly misses his share of PER rolls, and rarely does his
science on the fly. Built with a 10 INT, he'd have to pay considerably more
for his many many sciences, even with Scientist, than a similarly skilled
but less preoccupied character (who would presumably also buy Scientist
anyway). Other heroes with this problem might include Ted Knight (Starman),
pulp scientists like Dr. Zarkov, and Star Trek's Mr. Spock.
Some concepts are just expensive, of course. But it just seems to me that
slow-thinking geniuses are needlessly expensive.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 17:53:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: say INT ain't so
>That works fine for absent-minded normals. But how about slower thinking
>absent-minded heroes? Arguably the Doctor (Doctor Who) might fall in this
>category - he certainly misses his share of PER rolls, and rarely does his
>science on the fly. Built with a 10 INT, he'd have to pay considerably more
>for his many many sciences, even with Scientist, than a similarly skilled
>but less preoccupied character (who would presumably also buy Scientist
>anyway). Other heroes with this problem might include Ted Knight (Starman),
>pulp scientists like Dr. Zarkov, and Star Trek's Mr. Spock.
>
>Some concepts are just expensive, of course. But it just seems to me that
>slow-thinking geniuses are needlessly expensive.
Levels can make up for a lot of this, depending on how broad you need the
character to be; they can, in fact, be more cost effective than INT under
some circumstances.
------------------------------
Date: 29 Apr 1999 21:31:46 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: say INT ain't so
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* Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavsky@mln.lib.ma.us> on Thu, 29 Apr 1999
| That works fine for absent-minded normals. But how about slower thinking
| absent-minded heroes?
Which part of
Because your example happenes to be the perfect example of the difference
between building a normal and a superhero. Albert Einstein is a normal
human, built as a normal human. Mr. Fantastic is a superhero, built as a
superhero. One set of rules applies to Einstein, a significantly
different set applies to Mr. Fantastic.
did you not understand?
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds.
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 23:35:43 EDT
From: Leah L Watts <llwatts@juno.com>
Subject: Re: DBZ adaptions finished
>> All I want to know is how I can get my hair to stand up in pointy bits
like
>> that, he looks so cool....
>
>Use a lot of VO5 I think. Or Crisco.
This actually pops up every so often on the fantasy costuming mailing
list. According to some posters with punker friends, Knox unflavored
gelatine makes great Mohawks.
Leah
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 23:35:43 EDT
From: Leah L Watts <llwatts@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Einstein & INT
>| Forgive me for coming across so harshly, but far too many persons have
been
>| screwed over by testing misuse. The horror stories are endless.
>
>Here's mine... my sister's, actually. For years she had problems with
math
>in school. They made her take an IQ test, which she did okay on -- that
>is, she scored 'average'. Diagnosis: she was not applying herself
enough
>to her math homework.
<snip>
>A year later she learned The Truth: she suffers from a form of dyslexia
>which causes her brain to reverse signs. That is, if the problem is '3
+
>2' her brain says '3 - 2' and provides the answer '1'.
A friend of mine, after a full battery of testing, was told she was
having trouble with her college science/math courses because her IQ was
under 90. Since she had made the dean's list in a previous semester, her
advisor insisted on taking another look at the tests. It turned out that
she scored above average on the _written_ tests, but the _oral_ tests had
dropped her final score way below average. Supposedly, the person giving
the oral tests knew beforehand that my friend has lost over 70% of her
hearing.
Leah
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 23:32:12 -0400
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Spock's Brain
I was trying to think of some slow-thinking heroes to use as
examples in one of my INT debate posts, and Mr. Spock came to
mind. On later reflection, though, it occurred to me that
Spock's thinking could be characterized as either fast or slow,
depending on the context. It seems to me that this is yet
another wrinkle in the definition of INT as speed of thought.
Spock is certainly a Lightning Calculator, and capable of
extraordinary analysis even in high pressure situations. When
there's an engineering crisis, it's Spock who goes into the
Jeffries tube, not Scotty. So maybe he's got a high INT. And
yet, in combat or any other situation where quick decision is
called for, Spock's not exactly the man for the job - he'll
weight all possibilities to the last decimal place before he
takes action. So maybe he's got a low INT. Fascinating.
Perhaps this aspect of the "speed of thought" problem merits
some further clarification of exactly what kind of thought is
taking place speedily. After all, Einstein was surely thinking
about *something* when he was having trouble picking his socks
for the day. It wouldn't surprise me if he was speedily working
through physics problems that others couldn't have solved in years;
he just couldn't follow a direct path to a conclusion of the task
at hand. Spock could answer the rapidfire questions provided by
the Vulcan training computer in ST IV, but in action Kirk can
make a quicker decision every time.
I'm curious, then, what INT people would give to Spock. Any takers?
- - Bill Svitavsky
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 23:52:03 -0400
From: Mathieu Roy <matroy@abacom.com>
Subject: Re: Spock's Brain
BILL SVITAVSKY wrote:
> Perhaps this aspect of the "speed of thought" problem merits
> some further clarification of exactly what kind of thought is
> taking place speedily. After all, Einstein was surely thinking
> about *something* when he was having trouble picking his socks
> for the day. It wouldn't surprise me if he was speedily working
> through physics problems that others couldn't have solved in years;
> he just couldn't follow a direct path to a conclusion of the task
> at hand. Spock could answer the rapidfire questions provided by
> the Vulcan training computer in ST IV, but in action Kirk can
> make a quicker decision every time.
>
> I'm curious, then, what INT people would give to Spock. Any takers?
My short and sweet guess would be that Spock has high INT -- to the tune
of maybe 23 -- but average to slow SPD -- hence, he is not nearly as
good in combat situation. But when he does get to acting, he usually
does so wisely. Kirk, by contrast, probably has fair INT (15-18) and
higher SPD (3, or perhaps 4, since he was in Security).
Mathieu
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 23:50:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: "John Desmarais" <john.desmarais@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Spock's Brain
On Thu, 29 Apr 1999 23:32:12 -0400, BILL SVITAVSKY wrote:
>
>I'm curious, then, what INT people would give to Spock. Any takers?
Very high (mid to upper 30s) with a Psych Lim: "Over Analyzes"
- -=>John Desmarais
http://www.sysabend.org/champions
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 22:36:18 -0500
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@radiks.net>
Subject: Re: <FHList> eating and sleeping
Christopher Taylor wrote:
> >] humans are way more vulnerable to lack of Water than food
> >] lack 5 to 7 x as
> >] vulnerable
> >Right. I'm not so much worried about food and water for this specific
> >adventure. I'm planning on a two-week hike across the plains with a pack of
> >hounds [See Mike's Black Dog writeup] baying and sniffing every step of the
> >way. I think I'm also going to have people's REC stat drop by one or two
> >every day.
>
> As I understand it an average person that is not doing moderate exercise
> will die from lack of water in around a week (this may hold true for total
> rest as well) and from lack of food in around two weeks. As demonstrated
> by zealous terrorists/cum martyr saints via hollywood, one can live for
> about a month before coma sets in without food, assuming total rest.
I think your 2 weeks is an underestimate or implies less than total rest..
many/most people would last a month not two weeks (assuming they also had plenty
of water) without food and Americans 5 weeks... we average 20lbs overweight ;)
yes that is sarcasm and I know excess weight is typically ineffeciently stored
so bleah.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 23:08:19 -0500
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Spock's Brain
At 11:32 PM 4/29/1999 -0400, BILL SVITAVSKY wrote:
>
>I was trying to think of some slow-thinking heroes to use as
>examples in one of my INT debate posts, and Mr. Spock came to
>mind. On later reflection, though, it occurred to me that
>Spock's thinking could be characterized as either fast or slow,
>depending on the context. It seems to me that this is yet
>another wrinkle in the definition of INT as speed of thought.
>
>I'm curious, then, what INT people would give to Spock. Any takers?
Without settling on exact numbers, I believe I'd give Kirk an average to
above-average INT, and Spock high INT.
Kirk isn't capable of the kind of rapid analysis Spock can perform in
non-crisis situations. Kirk comes to decisions more quickly in crisis
situations because he reacts by instinct and intuition. He isn't using his
brain so much as his "gut". This seems more an EGO thing than an INT
thing. (Anyone here who doesn't think Jim Kirk has a big EGO?) You
*could* just say that intuitive thinking is more rapid than rational
thinking and simulate that with a higher INT score, but it's really just a
left-brain vs. right-brain distinction.
Spock has stated repeatedly that he has never sought command. This shows
great good sense on his part, since he has no real facility for it.
Command requires the ability to reach decisions quickly, often on the basis
of less information than is desirable. Spock's tendency to analyze a
situation to death is perhaps best handled as a Psych Lim rather than a
reduced INT score.
The tendency toward over-analysis sometimes works against him in non-crisis
situations as well: the less-intelligent Kirk beats him at chess. I don't
think this represents high INT on Kirk's part, or low INT on Spock's part.
It comes from two things: the subconcious expectation that Vulcans have
that the people around them will behave logically (and Kirk does not, in
the sense that he doesn't follow the expected strategies); and Kirk's
ability to find and exploit weaknesses in his opponent (such as that
expectation). That ability can be covered with Skills, Skill Levels and
Talents, rather than extra INT points.
Damon
- ---------------
Intellectuals solve problems, geniuses prevent them.
-- Albert Einstein
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #304
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Date: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 10:16 AM