Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 310
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Monday, May 03, 1999 7:50 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #310
champ-l-digest Monday, May 3 1999 Volume 01 : Number 310
In this issue:
TK (was Re: CHAR: Darth Vader (fini?))
Re: Palladium Conversion (was: RE: Translating Adventures)
Re: Spock's Brain and Intuition
Re: TK Stuff
Re: TK Stuff
Re: TK Stuff
Re: TK Stuff
Re: TK Stuff
Re: CHAR: Darth Vader (fini?)
Re: CHAR: Darth Vader (fini?)
Re: CHAR: Darth Vader (fini?)
Fwd: CHAR: Darth Vader (fini?)
Re: TK Stuff (fwd)
Re: CHAR: Darth Vader (fini?)
RE: The Acceptance of Powergaming (was re RE:Darth Vader)
Re: CHAR: Darth Vader (fini?)
Re: Telekinesis (was CHAR: Darth Vader)
Re: CHAR: Darth Vader (fini?)
Welcome to champ-l
Re: Telekinesis (was CHAR: Darth Vader)
Re: CHAR: Darth Vader (fini?)
Re: Telekinesis (was CHAR: Darth Vader)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 14:54:37 -0500 (CDT)
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Subject: TK (was Re: CHAR: Darth Vader (fini?))
> From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
> In order to get the proper effect, he had to buy TK, Indirect,
> BOECV, Does Body, Invisible to all Sense Groups but Mental, NND (The
> reasoning behind NND being that if you're levitated with TK, there's no
> action/reaction possible unless you have Flight or you can grab on to an
> object.
OK. I *freaked* when I saw Does Body, cause I'm sure that TK STILL does
body, but then I realized that this was because of the BOECV advantage,
right ? What was the justification for BOECV ?
I got Ultimate Mentalist out the other day to look at Mind Link and Mind
Scan, guess I need to reread TK as well.
> From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
>
> > (I'd like to think that a character with TK could unlock a car after he
> > accidentally locked his keys inside without buying 'Indirect'. I guess
> > a 'telekinetic' character could, but it seems a character with just straight>
> By the book, he can't. He could manipulate the lock, if he has 'fine work'
> on his TK. Stretching has many problems as well though, as it gets very
> expensive to get any substantial distance. It also won't let you get
> inside the locked car either.
>
Presumably maniupulating the lock through going through the keyhole,
which means you're working blind and probably have to make a lockpicking
roll. In which case you might as well just
open the catches on the door, ...but you can't do that, because you'd need
indirect...
Stretching would get you the free strength, and some form of indirect
automatically in that you can always curve around *some* intervening barriers
as well as curve to attack from different angles. The only real disadvantage
is range and not getting indirect for inside stuff...
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 16:04:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
Subject: Re: Palladium Conversion (was: RE: Translating Adventures)
On Mon, 3 May 1999, Johnson, Adam wrote:
> I posted this a couple of weeks ago, wondering if anyone had a workable
> Palladium to HERO conversion. I've been working on one, but I want to see
> how it compares with others that may be out there.
I think it's just gauging the statistics and skills. If he can
lift X ammount, and gets X bonus to damage, or can do X with Martial Arts.
If he knows Survival or X skill. The rest you fill in using the
background.
I've never really tried direct conversions before. I'm also
unfamaliar with any sort of "formula" conversion for any system in
particular.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 16:07:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
Subject: Re: Spock's Brain and Intuition
On Mon, 3 May 1999, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
> Interestingly, I have a tougher time coming up with superheroes from comics
> who are exceptionally intuitive than I do thinking of heroes from film or
<snip>
> topic up in the first place. Can anybody think of any good examples in
> comics, though? It comes up occassionally with mystical heroes, but there's
> a fine line there between intuition and mystical senses. "I feel
> something is unusual here..." Jack Knight (Starman) is certainly more
> intuitive than his deductive father Ted, but that's more a personality
> trait than it is a significant ability.
Try any "mystical" hero, like Dr. Fate, or Dr. Strange, or any
number of exceptionally lucky wire-pulling bomb-defusing heroes out
there... I'd say that write up of Intuition would be well suited for
characters with good "primal" senses (like a Tarzan, Kraven, or Wolverine
type), lucky characters (like Longshot), or Danger Sense heroes (like
Spiderman) in addition to their normal skills.
I'd also be open to giving Intuition the same bonuses Gambling
gets for Luck.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 16:12:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
Subject: Re: TK Stuff
On Mon, 3 May 1999, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> > In order to get the proper effect, he had to buy TK, Indirect,
> > BOECV, Does Body, Invisible to all Sense Groups but Mental, NND (The
> > reasoning behind NND being that if you're levitated with TK, there's no
> > action/reaction possible unless you have Flight or you can grab on to an
> > object. Also NND for "tricks" like attacking someone inside a power armor
> > suit). He was even more put off by the outrageous cost-- PLUS he didn't
> > get Flight as a "free side effect power" and he had to pay lots of END.
> Whoa. I think you over did it. By my figuring, you could go the simple
> route and but it as Invisible and Indirect. I don't see the need for
> "Does Body" or NND. Long discusses what BOECV TK gets you in TUM, and he
> didn't remove the ability to damage objects with it. The NND part goes
> against hte idea of NND, what is the defense? Having TK? In the Akira
> world, anyone with TK had enough to render anyone else's STR moot, so you
> didn't need NND. In a super's world things should be more balanced
> between characters.
NND Defense: Having Flight, KB Resistance, Stretching, Clinging,
Swinging, TK, or any other power that can prevent the "action/reaction" of
being lifted up and suspended with no visible means of support.
Essentially, you could be a 100 STR brick, but I move you from any surface
to act against, and you'll be swinging at the air...
The NND effects the grabbing/lifiting portion of the TK power...
not necessarily the damage.
And Does BODY is included not because of BOECV, but because of
NND- since the power can still "do BODY" as per standard TK.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 16:16:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: TK Stuff
On Mon, 3 May 1999, Jason Sullivan wrote:
> NND Defense: Having Flight, KB Resistance, Stretching, Clinging,
> Swinging, TK, or any other power that can prevent the "action/reaction" of
> being lifted up and suspended with no visible means of support.
> Essentially, you could be a 100 STR brick, but I move you from any surface
> to act against, and you'll be swinging at the air...
> The NND effects the grabbing/lifiting portion of the TK power...
> not necessarily the damage.
>
> And Does BODY is included not because of BOECV, but because of
> NND- since the power can still "do BODY" as per standard TK.
Sorry, I disagree with the implimentation of this power.
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
The Phoenicians were not great philosophers... they pondered the simpler
questions, like "If I stick this spear in you, can I take your stuff?",
"Do you have relatives that would be mad if I took your stuff?", and
"Can my relatives beat up your relatives?"
(c) Doug Robarchek
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 16:30:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
Subject: Re: TK Stuff
On Mon, 3 May 1999, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> Sorry, I disagree with the implimentation of this power.
Which part?
The NND TK Defense for Grabbing
or
The Does BODY?
I think we could change this into a thread:
TK Effect vs. TK Damage...
For example...
Ferrous Dan is made of Iron. He has the following Vulnrabilities:
X2 STUN from Magnetic SFX
X2 BODY from Magnetic SFX
X2 Effect from Magnetic SFX
Since Ferrous is made of Iron, Magnetic blasts and such can very
easily "displace" his body.
However, since he's effected as metal, and very easily
"magnetized", he is easily levitated, grabbed, etc. by the "STR" of
Magnetic SFX TK.
Thus, the Damage AND the Effect parts of a Magnetic TK would
effect Fe greater.
...and, since there is no "normal" defense against the SFX of the
particular Psychokinetic TK's lifting properties, as long as the
individual can be lifted by the TK's "STR", he can not "escape" by "normal
means."
By definition of the rules, all that is needed to break out of
"normal" TK is STR.
I feel this distinction needs to be made in Superheroic games, due
to the exceptionally large number of moderate weight high end STR
characters.
I believe the best example of this can be found in the Fantastic
Four, where the Invisible Woman levitates The Thing on a regular basis to
prevent him from going on a rampage when ever Ben gets grumpy.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 16:34:21 -0400
From: Geoff Speare <geoff@igcn.com>
Subject: Re: TK Stuff
>> Sorry, I disagree with the implimentation of this power.
...and no one has suggested Flight, Usable Against Others yet? :)
Geoff Speare
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 16:46:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: TK Stuff
On Mon, 3 May 1999, Jason Sullivan wrote:
> > Sorry, I disagree with the implimentation of this power.
>
> Which part?
>
> The NND TK Defense for Grabbing
>
> or
>
> The Does BODY?
Both actually. NND is supposed to be used to create a power that bypasses
normal defenses in terms of damage. Thus, NND NND TK makes no sense.
This would be like saying that I could give Grond NND STR, since he is so
strong there is *no way* you'll ever get out of his grip. This being the
case, "Does Body" makes no sense as well.
> I think we could change this into a thread:
> TK Effect vs. TK Damage...
The problem is that TK is not a special effect in and of itself, it is
merely a means to an end.
> Ferrous Dan is made of Iron. He has the following Vulnrabilities:
> X2 STUN from Magnetic SFX
> X2 BODY from Magnetic SFX
> X2 Effect from Magnetic SFX
> Since Ferrous is made of Iron, Magnetic blasts and such can very
> easily "displace" his body.
How about kill. I fire off a 12d6 (standard 60 AP attack for most
universes) and Ferrous Dan takes (uhmm...) 12 BODY and 36 STUN. That ends
up being 48 BODY and 144 STUN. Dan go bye-bye.
But I degres.
> However, since he's effected as metal, and very easily
> "magnetized", he is easily levitated, grabbed, etc. by the "STR" of
> Magnetic SFX TK.
> Thus, the Damage AND the Effect parts of a Magnetic TK would
> effect Fe greater.
Yup. But that is for one type of Special Effect. Not all.
> ...and, since there is no "normal" defense against the SFX of the
> particular Psychokinetic TK's lifting properties, as long as the
> individual can be lifted by the TK's "STR", he can not "escape" by "normal
> means."
Can he? There have been times where characters have pushed themselves
free of a TK's 'grab'. One of the defenses vs TK is not getting grabbed
in the first place. Also, here, you've made it all or nothing. If Akira
grabs someone, he either holds them or he doesn't. If I have any of the
defenses you mention, then I get away, regardless of how much TK Akira
has.
You make it soun like all the characters have a string attached and all I
need to do is pick up that string to dangle the character and render
them helpless. This is a fine idea as a 'power effect', but I don't think
NND TK is the way to go.
> By definition of the rules, all that is needed to break out of
> "normal" TK is STR.
Yes, because TK is "STR useable at range"
> I feel this distinction needs to be made in Superheroic games, due
> to the exceptionally large number of moderate weight high end STR
> characters.
> I believe the best example of this can be found in the Fantastic
> Four, where the Invisible Woman levitates The Thing on a regular basis to
> prevent him from going on a rampage when ever Ben gets grumpy.
This might be a combination of powers, or Flight, UAO.
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
The Phoenicians were not great philosophers... they pondered the simpler
questions, like "If I stick this spear in you, can I take your stuff?",
"Do you have relatives that would be mad if I took your stuff?", and
"Can my relatives beat up your relatives?"
(c) Doug Robarchek
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 16:50:10 EDT
From: Akirazeta@aol.com
Subject: Re: CHAR: Darth Vader (fini?)
In a message dated 5/3/99 2:53:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
susano@dedaana.otd.com writes:
<< 20 Dependence: His suit (internal life support mechanisms), 1d6 per
Segment >>
If you are going to build him as not being able to remove the suit, this is
very unappropriate. If a disadvantage does not penelize a character, they get
no points.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 16:54:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Darth Vader (fini?)
On Mon, 3 May 1999 Akirazeta@aol.com wrote:
> << 20 Dependence: His suit (internal life support mechanisms), 1d6 per
> Segment >>
>
> If you are going to build him as not being able to remove the suit, this is
> very unappropriate. If a disadvantage does not penelize a character, they get
> no points.
Note that Vader's rebreather is bought as a focus. You can take the
helmet off, at which point Vader could be in a heap of trouble.
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
The Phoenicians were not great philosophers... they pondered the simpler
questions, like "If I stick this spear in you, can I take your stuff?",
"Do you have relatives that would be mad if I took your stuff?", and
"Can my relatives beat up your relatives?"
(c) Doug Robarchek
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 15:59:58 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Darth Vader (fini?)
On Mon, 3 May 1999 Akirazeta@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 5/3/99 2:53:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> susano@dedaana.otd.com writes:
>
> << 20 Dependence: His suit (internal life support mechanisms), 1d6 per
> Segment >>
>
> If you are going to build him as not being able to remove the suit, this is
> very unappropriate. If a disadvantage does not penelize a character, they get
> no points.
But the suit (or at least the helmet) /can/ be removed, as evidenced by
the last movie.
If Darth never chooses to remove the suit, that is very different from
Darth being physically unable to remove the suit.
If (somehow) someone knocked Vader out, they could take the suit off and
he would die. This is definitely a disadvantage...
Me, I thought the 'odd' disad was Secret ID. It's not really all /that/
secret, he never seems to try to conceal it, and I don't think that most
peopel care that Darth Vader used to be Anakin Skywalker. Obi-Wan is the
one who conceals it from Luke, but that's a different story...
(Oh, and when a character has a 400+ point 'Dark Lord of the Sith
bonus'/experience points/whatever, does it /really/ matter whether he gets
the points from Dependency/Secret ID/whatever or not? No...not really.)
J
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 17:08:34 EDT
From: Akirazeta@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: CHAR: Darth Vader (fini?)
- --part1_db9214f9.245f6a52_boundary
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In a message dated 5/3/99 5:07:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Akira zeta writes:
<<
<< > << 20 Dependence: His suit (internal life support mechanisms), 1d6
per
> Segment >>
>
> If you are going to build him as not being able to remove the suit, this
is
> very unappropriate. If a disadvantage does not penelize a character, they
get
> no points.
But the suit (or at least the helmet) /can/ be removed, as evidenced by
the last movie.
If Darth never chooses to remove the suit, that is very different from
Darth being physically unable to remove the suit.
If (somehow) someone knocked Vader out, they could take the suit off and
he would die. This is definitely a disadvantage...
Me, I thought the 'odd' disad was Secret ID. It's not really all /that/
secret, he never seems to try to conceal it, and I don't think that most
peopel care that Darth Vader used to be Anakin Skywalker. Obi-Wan is the
one who conceals it from Luke, but that's a different story...
(Oh, and when a character has a 400+ point 'Dark Lord of the Sith
bonus'/experience points/whatever, does it /really/ matter whether he gets
the points from Dependency/Secret ID/whatever or not? No...not really.)
J
>>
so what. she has built the character with the concept that the character
cannot remove the suit. >>
- --part1_db9214f9.245f6a52_boundary
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Return-path: Akirazeta@aol.com
From: Akirazeta@aol.com
Full-name: Akira zeta
Message-ID: <db9214f9.245f6a1d@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 17:07:41 EDT
Subject: Re: CHAR: Darth Vader (fini?)
To: jeffj@io.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
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X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4
In a message dated 5/3/99 5:00:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jeffj@io.com
writes:
<< > << 20 Dependence: His suit (internal life support mechanisms), 1d6
per
> Segment >>
>
> If you are going to build him as not being able to remove the suit, this
is
> very unappropriate. If a disadvantage does not penelize a character, they
get
> no points.
But the suit (or at least the helmet) /can/ be removed, as evidenced by
the last movie.
If Darth never chooses to remove the suit, that is very different from
Darth being physically unable to remove the suit.
If (somehow) someone knocked Vader out, they could take the suit off and
he would die. This is definitely a disadvantage...
Me, I thought the 'odd' disad was Secret ID. It's not really all /that/
secret, he never seems to try to conceal it, and I don't think that most
peopel care that Darth Vader used to be Anakin Skywalker. Obi-Wan is the
one who conceals it from Luke, but that's a different story...
(Oh, and when a character has a 400+ point 'Dark Lord of the Sith
bonus'/experience points/whatever, does it /really/ matter whether he gets
the points from Dependency/Secret ID/whatever or not? No...not really.)
J
>>
so what. she has built the character with the concept that the character
cannot remove the suit.
- --part1_db9214f9.245f6a52_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 17:27:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
Subject: Re: TK Stuff (fwd)
On Mon, 3 May 1999, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> On Mon, 3 May 1999, Jason Sullivan wrote:
> > > Sorry, I disagree with the implimentation of this power.
> > Which part?
> > The NND TK Defense for Grabbing
> > or
> > The Does BODY?
> Both actually. NND is supposed to be used to create a power that bypasses
> normal defenses in terms of damage. Thus, NND NND TK makes no sense.
> This would be like saying that I could give Grond NND STR, since he is so
> strong there is *no way* you'll ever get out of his grip. This being the
> case, "Does Body" makes no sense as well.
I disagree. NND can be used for "BODY-less" attacks, such as
Flash, Entangle, or Drain.
The SFX of the TK I'm talking about is suspension by invisible,
empty forces to negate the charcter's weight. The SFX you speak of (with
Grond) would be a question of granularity on the part of STR.
The only SFX I could think of for NND STR would be the exact
opposite of "super slipperiness", which would be something like Mr.
Fantastic wrapping himself around someone entirely like a body suit (which
is an established SFX for him). The reasonable defense would be Desolid
(and Reed's going to be a'hurtin if he tries it on someone with Damage
Shield).
The HERO Bestiary suggests you do stuff like this with a "self"
Entangle.
What you do bring up is the validity of an "NND Grab." SFX for an
NND grab would need to be something very cosmic- like a Black Hole type
gravity well, or a total gravity reduction and suspension by "invisible
forces."
> > I think we could change this into a thread:
> > TK Effect vs. TK Damage...
> The problem is that TK is not a special effect in and of itself, it is
> merely a means to an end.
A rewording, perhaps (for I did not mean TK SFX, but rather TK
Effect):
TK's Effects against a target by means of manipulating said target
through means of Grabbing or affecting said target as opposed to TK
"punches" and effects-there of that do damage.
> > Ferrous Dan is made of Iron. He has the following Vulnerabilities:
> > X2 STUN from Magnetic SFX
> > X2 BODY from Magnetic SFX
> > X2 Effect from Magnetic SFX
> > Since Ferrous is made of Iron, Magnetic blasts and such can very
> > easily "displace" his body.
> How about kill. I fire off a 12d6 (standard 60 AP attack for most
> universes) and Ferrous Dan takes (uhmm...) 12 BODY and 36 STUN. That ends
> up being 48 BODY and 144 STUN. Dan go bye-bye.
Note the "displace" in quotes. I was defining why the SFX do the
damage, not the measure by which the damage is done.
Anyway, how do _you_ know that Ferrous Dan doesn't have more than
a 48 BODY and 144 STUN? :)
> But I degres.
> > However, since he's effected as metal, and very easily
> > "magnetized", he is easily levitated, grabbed, etc. by the "STR" of
> > Magnetic SFX TK.
> > Thus, the Damage AND the Effect parts of a Magnetic TK would
> > effect Fe greater.
> Yup. But that is for one type of Special Effect. Not all.
I could apply it to a number of SFX. Bee Man, who is made of Bees
takes X2 BODY/STUN from Wind attacks, and x2 effect from wind SFX...
Most attack-type susceptibilities are dependent on SFX. Fire for
Captain Sno-Cone, Wind for Bee Man, Magnetism for Ferrous Dan...
...but I'll try another that is All TK.
Johnny Paper takes X2 BODY/STUN from attacks that are TK based,
because they rip and tear his fragile body. Johnny Paper also takes X2
effect from TK because he is so light.
Johnny Paper does not have 48 BODY and 144 STUN. Johnny go bye
bye.
But I digress.
> > ...and, since there is no "normal" defense against the SFX of the
> > particular Psychokinetic TK's lifting properties, as long as the
> > individual can be lifted by the TK's "STR", he can not "escape" by "normal
> > means."
> Can he? There have been times where characters have pushed themselves
> free of a TK's 'grab'. One of the defenses vs TK is not getting grabbed
> in the first place. Also, here, you've made it all or nothing. If Akira
> grabs someone, he either holds them or he doesn't. If I have any of the
> defenses you mention, then I get away, regardless of how much TK Akira
> has.
Action/reaction would be able to escape from this particular
because it just lifts the character's total weight and suspends them in a
field. (I had this gripe in another Superhero RPG, where the character
could lift others by making a null gravity field, but has no such luck
with various Bricks, who could lift X100 their weight easily.)
However, I did error when evaluating the individual power of TK
for my friend, since I clumped it into one large gross sum of a power. It
would be more appropriate dividing it into separate powers.
How does a AVLD TK vs. Power Defense sound?
> You make it soun like all the characters have a string attached and all I
> need to do is pick up that string to dangle the character and render
> them helpless. This is a fine idea as a 'power effect', but I don't think
> NND TK is the way to go.
I still like the concept of NND TK, but...
> > By definition of the rules, all that is needed to break out of
> > "normal" TK is STR.
> Yes, because TK is "STR useable at range"
...in order for that to happen you have to make a power that can
"dangle" a character without having the standard defense being STR.
> > I feel this distinction needs to be made in Superheroic games, due
> > to the exceptionally large number of moderate weight high end STR
> > characters.
> > I believe the best example of this can be found in the Fantastic
> > Four, where the Invisible Woman levitates The Thing on a regular basis to
> > prevent him from going on a rampage when ever Ben gets grumpy.
> This might be a combination of powers, or Flight, UAO.
Flight UAO works, but I don't personally like using that
construct (but I'll have to re-evaluate it due to the current post).
You could probally bastardize some Transparent Entangle to do the
same.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 17:34:43 EDT
From: Akirazeta@aol.com
Subject: Re: CHAR: Darth Vader (fini?)
If he can remove the suit, and never does, that means the suit can be stolen,
and would be bought as a foci. that is the definitive "powered armor".
If this was the case, there would also be two sets of stats, one with the
suit on, and one without. there are not.
If the suit was removable, its powers/stats would be bought as seperate
powers, not as the characters base stats. they were bought as base stats.
This character was built with the suit being an intergrated part of the
character, not a seperate item. It cannot be removed the way it was built.
This is what im saying. Im not debating if the suit is removeable in george
Lucas's universe.
and if the character was built with the suit being non-removeable, than there
is noway that you would recieve points for having to wear it as a
disadvantage.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 19:18:53 -0400
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: RE: The Acceptance of Powergaming (was re RE:Darth Vader)
At 07:31 AM 5/3/99 -0700, Filksinger wrote:
>I have been following this thread for some time, but I didn't intend
>to make any comment. However, I did notice when people claimed that
>INT rules didn't match what they were used for in the game, and
>decided to compare what Einstein was known to be good at compared and
>what Einstein was known to be bad at to INT and various skills.
>
I suspect most of the list has gotten bored of this debate, but for those
of us still interested, I will respond.
>INT grants: Einstein
>
>Perception Notably not perceptive.
Agreed.
>
>Decision-making abilities Notably poor decision maker
>
Where does it say INT grants decision making abilities? If you're aiming
for a strict by-the-book interpretation of INT, this seems irrelevent to me.
On page 14 of the BBB it says this and only this: "Intelligence (INT): This
characteristic represents the ability to take in and process data quickly.
INT does not necessarily reflect knowledge. A character could have a high
INT and be very ignorant. Conversely, a brilliant scientist who thought
slowly might have a low INT. Intelligence increases teh character's
Perception Rolls and certain Skills."
Is the end result of processing necessarily a decision? I don't think so -
the generation of a wide range of possibilities can also result from rapid
processing of data - which is a large part of what makes certain
intellectual types so indecisive.
>Quick thinking in crisis Always stopped to consider before answering
>even simple questions in his field.
>
Now this criterion does seem to fit the official description "ability to
take in and process data quickly." However, I'd argue that Einstein could
process data quickly - I imagine he was probably considering quite a bit
quite rapidly in that time before answering.
>The ability to understand the world Notably easily confused by
>real-world events around him.
>
Again, "ability to understand" is not a strict book interpretation of INT.
I think it's a reasonable inference, but I think the factors giving
Einstein an enormous IQ are also a reasonable inference of aspects of INT.
And Einstein could certainly understand the world in ways most others could
not.
[SNIP]
>In short, if a player came to me with a character who had a high INT,
>but none of the abilities granted by high INT except the skill roll
>increases, I would probably simply turn him down. And if I allowed it,
>I would _not_ say that the character had a high INT, only that that
>was a cheap way of buying something else.
I can certainly see why you'd be cautious about that sort of limiting of a
Characteristic. I think the definition of INT is broad enough, though, to
allow for more than what you've inferred - and it seems to me that you
have already inferred quite a bit.
I've argued for a broader interpretation of INT in part in terms of how it
would affect point costs, but others have quite rightly pointed out that
levels with INT skills would even out the costs. All costs being equal, I
still think that incorporating IQ and other aspects of intelligence into
INT makes a lot of sense. It allows the simple construction of
intelligence-affecting powers, which is certainly a comic book staple. It
makes intuitive sense. And it seems to fit better the actual use INT has
gotten in Hero characters than the speed of data processing definition.
One further inference about INT occurs to me. Consider that the Age
disadvantage (p. 118-119) *raises* the max INT to 25 for age 40+, and to
30 for age 60+. This suggests(to me, anyway) that effective reasoning and
the ability to recall acquired knowledge are in fact aspects of INT. It
certainly isn't the case that older humans "take in and process data more
quickly" in your strict interpretation; we're more likely to be less quick
to perceive as we get older - just think of children's ability to learn
languages. But I believe cognitive development theories do hold that adults
think more effectively by applying knowledge & experience to their
perceptions.
- - Bill Svitavsky
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 16:19:08 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Darth Vader (fini?)
At 02:52 PM 5/3/1999 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>
>As far as I know, Vader's history runs like this: Darth Vader was born
>Annakin Skywalker on Tatooine. He showed a powerful gift for the Force
>from an early age and eventually became the student of Obi Wan Kenobi, a
>Jedi Knight. Eventually, he went on to train under Yoda and was made a
>fully-fledged Jedi. At some point, Annakin was seduced by the power and
>the promise of the 'Dark Side' and turned against his fellow Jedi. He
>betrayed them to the Emperor, and helped to hunt down and destroy the
>once-proud Knighthood. During these events, he had a final battle with
>Obi Wan Kenobi, during which he was grievous injured (reports vary) and
>was only able to survive the experience by being rebuilt as a virtual
>cyborg.
Check your name spellings here. I'm pretty sure Skywalker's name is
spelled Aniken, I'm almost totally certain that Obi-Wan is hyphenated, and
I'm reasonably certain that the Emperor's name is Palpatine.
You say in your write-up that you consulted the scripts as one of your
sources, so if these are written there as you had it, then don't worry
about it. If you or someone else has a better source than my memory (which
wouldn't take much), go with that. But this is what I recall.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 16:22:37 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Telekinesis (was CHAR: Darth Vader)
At 02:33 PM 5/3/1999 -0500, Curt Hicks wrote:
>>
>> > > > Off the top of my head, I'd already say that 'Telekinesis' is not
really
>> > > > blocked by intervening substances....
>> > >
>> > > By the rules, yes, it is.
>>
>> >
>> > Explicitly ? Or because it's a standard power ?
>>
>> Yes, it is a standard power, and by default it is blocked by barriers,
>> force walls and so on. It is not a LOS power, either. TK can be
>> manything, to mkae it like 'classical' TK (ie the Force , anime
>> psychokinetics, most TV telekinetics) it needs to be invisible and able to
>> ignore barriers.
>
>Hurmm.. I'll have to reread the rules, but this makes TK even less
desirable
>as a power.
>(I'd like to think that a character with TK could unlock a car after he
>accidentally locked his keys inside without buying 'Indirect'. I guess
>a 'telekinetic' character could, but it seems a character with just straight
>Hero system 'Telekinesis' could not. Actually, this makes the Stretching
>with Invisible Power Effects a better alternative in some cases.)
Telekinesis is so totally screwed in 4th Edition, between the above and
the skewed cost, that I had to trash all my 3rd Edition telekinetics,
including one who was my second-favorite PC. From what I gather, I won't
be able to rebuild them under 5th Edition either; TK is still way to
expensive to make it anything more than a "utility" power.
(I also had to trash two of my three 3rd Edition duplicators, but I do
think that the old +5 points per 2X duplicates is coming back.)
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 16:41:53 PDT
From: "Jesse Thomas" <haerandir@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Darth Vader (fini?)
On Mon, 03 May 1999 Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> wrote:
> Check your name spellings here. I'm pretty sure Skywalker's name is
>spelled Aniken, I'm almost totally certain that Obi-Wan is hyphenated, and
>I'm reasonably certain that the Emperor's name is Palpatine.
> You say in your write-up that you consulted the scripts as one of your
>sources, so if these are written there as you had it, then don't worry
>about it. If you or someone else has a better source than my memory (which
>wouldn't take much), go with that. But this is what I recall.
You're right about Palpatine, and I believe you are correct about Obi-Wan,
but the proper spelling for Darth Vader's given name is Anakin Skywalker.
Or, at least, that is the spelling that I have seen in every publication,
canon or otherwise, that I have perused, including, but not limited to, most
of the novels & novelizations, the RPG, and magazine articles about Epsiode
I.
Jesse Thomas
haerandir@hotmail.com
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 19:46:19 -0400 (EDT)
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Subject: Welcome to champ-l
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 19:43:42 -0500
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavsky@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Telekinesis (was CHAR: Darth Vader)
At 04:22 PM 5/3/99 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> Telekinesis is so totally screwed in 4th Edition, between the above and
>the skewed cost, that I had to trash all my 3rd Edition telekinetics,
>including one who was my second-favorite PC. From what I gather, I won't
>be able to rebuild them under 5th Edition either; TK is still way to
>expensive to make it anything more than a "utility" power.
> (I also had to trash two of my three 3rd Edition duplicators, but I do
>think that the old +5 points per 2X duplicates is coming back.)
When the 5th edition comes out, it might be interesting to compare the same
characters written for the different editions. When the BBB came out, the
campaign I was running got a complete overhaul; while I tried to maintain
some consistency, a few characters changed quite a bit. I suspect there are
a number of character types who've suffered over the years, though others
have surely benefitted from the development of the Hero System.
I wonder, does anybody have a campaign running, or even a PC, that will
span all the editions? My longest-running campaign spanned 2-4, but ended
years ago. I do have a couple of PC's originally written up for the 2nd ed.
(and revised a bit for later) supplements & editions which I could see
myself playing again some day.
- - Bill Svitavsky
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 19:44:21 EDT
From: Akirazeta@aol.com
Subject: Re: CHAR: Darth Vader (fini?)
In a message dated 5/3/99 7:40:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
haerandir@hotmail.com writes:
<< You're right about Palpatine, and I believe you are correct about Obi-Wan,
but the proper spelling for Darth Vader's given name is Anakin Skywalker.
Or, at least, that is the spelling that I have seen in every publication,
canon or otherwise, that I have perused, including, but not limited to, most
of the novels & novelizations, the RPG, and magazine articles about Epsiode
I.
Jesse Thomas >>
I second this statement. :)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 16:31:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Telekinesis (was CHAR: Darth Vader)
> Telekinesis is so totally screwed in 4th Edition, between the above and
>the skewed cost, that I had to trash all my 3rd Edition telekinetics,
>including one who was my second-favorite PC. From what I gather, I won't
>be able to rebuild them under 5th Edition either; TK is still way to
>expensive to make it anything more than a "utility" power.
> (I also had to trash two of my three 3rd Edition duplicators, but I do
>think that the old +5 points per 2X duplicates is coming back.)
Well, this is one of the problems where the cost of other powers largely
trapped them in a corner. Under the old system there was all too many cases
where you were an idiot taking a physical normal EB when TK existed. And
that was even without the ability to do direct damage. Given the cost of
Energy Blast and Strength, I'm not sure how they could have priced it any
differently.
Duplication is a different problem. It's very hard to price it so it
doesn't land either in 'too good' or 'useless'. The doubling for five rule
can _easily_ hit too good too fast. I personally double for each successive
increment of Duplication of a single type.
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #310
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